Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 14 October 2026

162 contributions from 40 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Good afternoon. Before we move to our first item, it's my pleasure to announce the result of the first Member Bill ballot for the seventh Senedd, which was held today. I'm pleased to announce that the three Members selected in today's ballot are James Evans, Sam Rowlands and Llŷr Powell. Congratulations to you all. I look forward in time to seeing the proposals that you bring forward and wish you all well as the work proceeds.

1. Questions to the Trefnydd, Chief Whip and Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Item 1 on our agenda today is questions to the Trefnydd, Chief Whip and Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport. Question 1, Tom Montgomery.

Tom Montgomery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support the expansion of library services in Clwyd? OQ64690

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Local authorities have a statutory responsibility to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service. The Welsh Government supports libraries in Clwyd through capital and revenue funding. In 2026-27, this includes awarding £349,000 to fund capital improvements in Colwyn Bay library and Rhyl library. Libraries across Clwyd have also benefited this year from over £50,000 of funding for smaller projects.

Tom Montgomery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Thank you, Minister. A local authority in Clwyd in 2023 resolved to reduce library one-stop shop opening hours by 40 per cent. This was despite over 4,500 residents responding to the consultation—the most that the local authority had seen in years. Ninety per cent of those responses warned that the closure or reduction in hours would limit their ability to visit their local library, and 96 per cent of these submissions submitted negative comments about the proposal. The local authority went ahead because its hands, to a certain extent, were tied financially by the funding formula. The significant change has seen around £360,000 saved but severely limits residents' access to this important service. So, what steps are you taking to support local library services, and what discussions have you had with the Minister for local government on seeing a funding formula that specifically protects library services? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

The Member raises an important issue, I know, for many of our constituents across Wales. I do acknowledge the challenges that local authorities have faced because of the financial settlements of these past years and the impact that that has had on local libraries in particular. One of the things that we are doing as part of our work in developing the culture and sports strategy is looking at local services. I have had discussions already with some local government leaders in Wales and the Welsh Local Government Association, in order to try and truly understand how fragile some of these services are.

Central to our new strategy is ensuring equal access for everyone. So, we want to understand what these challenges have been over past years, what that has meant to services in terms of libraries across Wales. A large part of our next piece of work will involve looking at that long-term strategy in terms of what library services that work for our communities look like, recognising that the service doesn't always meet our ambition in all parts of Wales at the moment.

Becca Martin (Plaid Cymru, Clwyd)

Libraries are essential services for young and old, often going far past the borrowing of books by providing warm spaces and tackling social isolation. The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 places a statutory duty on councils in England and Wales to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service. However, discussions with people in the sector suggest that a lack of clarity around what this actually means creates ambiguity and can lead to library provision being treated as discretionary rather than a legal duty. I think you have gone some way to answering the question in terms of that long-term strategy, but would the Government consider looking to give more clarity on what constitutes a comprehensive and efficient library service and provide councils with greater certainty about their statutory responsibilities?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for that further question. In Wales, we have a public library standards framework, which is the measure that is used to decide whether the quality of libraries has been met or not. This is a very live issue. I am aware of the concerns that exist across Wales, and one of the things that I am looking at is what responsibilities and powers I have under that Act if those services do not reach the mark in terms of quality. As the work of developing the new strategy goes forward, we will also be publishing specific plans looking at every sector, including libraries, in order to provide more clarity, yes, to local authorities, but also to the people of Wales.

Elwyn Vaughan (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

2. How is the Welsh Government protecting and promoting national monuments in Gwynedd Maldwyn for future generations? OQ64676

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Cadw protects and promotes nationally important monuments in Gwynedd Maldwyn through designation and through providing expert advice, guidance and support to the owners for their conservation. Cadw also promotes our heritage by managing the national monuments in its care and ensuring public access to them, in accordance with this Government's commitment to provide fair access to all of our cultural and heritage sites.

Elwyn Vaughan (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

You will be aware that Llansilin in the Gwynedd Maldwyn constituency is the home of Sycharth, the ancient court of Owain Glyndŵr and one of the most significant sites of our national heritage. Unfortunately, however, it is disgraceful that the current state of the site doesn't reflect its historic and national importance. There are problems such as overgrowing foliage, lack of access and even a lack of mention of the site on the Cadw website. On the other hand, Powys council has already rejected proposals for more signage on the road to promote the site. Can I ask, therefore, how the Welsh Government can work with Cadw and Powys County Council to ensure that Sycharth is promoted as a site of national importance for future generations?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising the issue of Sycharth. Just to be clear, I do consider Sycharth to be a monument of national importance that has a very significant place in Wales's history and in our identity as a nation. The monument is open to the public. There are interpretation signs on the site. After a conservation programme carried out with funding by Cadw, work has gone ahead since concerns were raised a few years ago. However, I am on the record as saying that I would like to see more being done to promote Sycharth before I was in this role, and I'm still of that opinion. Even though the rural location and nature of the site do present some problems in terms of physical access and the way it's presented, I have asked Cadw to look into how we can make the story of this site more prominent, because it is just so important in terms of our history. You will also be aware that Sycharth isn't for sale at the moment. It has a lifetime tenancy. Cadw is working in partnership with the estate that owns Sycharth to ensure that it is maintained and kept in good condition and that public access continues.

Andrew Griffin (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Following on from that question about protecting our historic heritage for future generations, last week, I had a meeting with Historic Houses Wales. A great deal of our heritage is actually in private ownership. I know from personal experience of living in a grade II listed house just how expensive these properties can be to maintain, particularly when there are restrictions on making improvements to reduce running costs. Can I ask the Cabinet Minister what practical support is available through Cadw for private owners who are helping to preserve our historic heritage, and how is she working with colleagues across Government to make sure these buildings remain viable for future generations?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for that further question. I and Cadw officials did meet with Historic Houses Wales last week, and officials will be having further discussions with them in relation to how we can proceed with any support work and to look at any possible options. Clearly, there is an opportunity also for them to contribute as part of the development of our new strategy.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. The Reform UK spokesperson, Louise Emery.

Louise Emery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Diolch. Minister, I had a question to the First Minister on 29 September about business rates and music venues—and I welcome the 30 per cent reduction—that talked about the cliff edge that happens at the £51,000 business rate edge. I want to keep this issue front and centre of your mind when you're in discussions with the finance Minister. A lot of cultural activities require public money to exist, and we don't want music venues to join that list. They want to be self-sufficient, they don't want to rely on grants, and this is a way we can help them. So, can I ask will you address the exclusion of music venues with the finance Minister, including consideration of a business rates taper approach in the future? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you. You will appreciate that these are questions to me, and you may want to ask that question of the finance Minister in the next set of questions. But, certainly, in terms of the future of music venues, it is one of the reasons why that 30 per cent was announced, in order to support smaller venues. We will also be looking at this as part of the new culture strategy. In terms of the future of music in Wales in its entirety, some responsibility for music lies with Creative Wales, and some of the responsibility for music falls to the Wales Arts Council. There is some ambiguity on occasion as to who is responsible for this sector in Wales, because, clearly, it's important for the Welsh economy too, along with our town centres and so many communities the length and breadth of Wales. What we as a Government to determine to do is to work on a cross-ministerial and cross-portfolio basis in order to ensure that the new strategy does take into account the benefit of music, yes, in terms of health and well-being, the culture of Wales, but also in terms of our economy. So, this is a very live issue.

Louise Emery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Diolch. Now, I'd like an update on the national museum in Cardiff. Now, we know that we got some funding for roof repairs earlier this year, and you came to our culture committee and expressed concern about water entering galleries containing our national collections. We've got winter approaching, and it's important that we have essential maintenance that carries on. But I want to know what progress there's been on the funding and repairs and what timetable and funding are in place to complete the urgent works, because we could be in a position where not only that our collections are at risk, but that the museum actually has to close.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you for that question. As I said when I appeared before the committee, and as you have mentioned, I am extremely concerned about National Museum Cardiff, and I am looking forward to receiving proposals for the possible redevelopment from the national museum. I haven't received the details to date. What we have been doing is working very closely with Amgueddfa Cymru to try and understand what the position is and what the needs are, and we have allocated up to £4.8 million in capital funding in this financial year to support the most urgent remedial work and to help to secure the collections. These are questions that I too have been asking of Amgueddfa Cymru, and I look forward to receiving an update on them and to sharing that information more broadly when I have it.

Louise Emery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Okay. Finally, I want to talk about the Tour de France. It's coming to Wales next summer, starting in Welshpool and finishing in Cardiff. We want it to be a successful event to showcase Wales, to help the local economy and be a great event for all of us to attend. But events of this scale cost money to host. We totally accept that; that's the deal. But we want transparency around these costs now and in the build-up to the event, and in the legacy funding afterwards. Now, I know you've announced the £4.5 million legacy fund, and I've got a query about that and then a question about the hosting fees. The legacy fund comes from the brilliant basics fund, or is administered through the brilliant basics fund, which is to provide small tourism infrastructure projects. Is this additional money, the £4.5 million, noting that it's going to be ring-fenced for cycling infrastructure, or is it just part of the brilliant basics fund, so it's going to come out of that original pot? That's my first question. And secondly, on the hosting fee, which public body has paid for this? Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I'm happy to provide additional information. The first part of your question should be referred to another minister, Adam Price, as it's not part of my portfolio. There is close collaboration on a cross-ministerial basis on the Tour de France. You will also appreciate that we inherited the Tour de France, and one of the things that I'm on the record as having said is that these are things that any government should look at before bidding for any major event. All of that information should be known before we even make that application. That clarity isn't there. So, at the moment, what we are doing is working on a cross-ministerial basis to better understand what different pots of money are in different portfolios currently, and also, in terms of looking at the legacy, how we can co-ordinate all of that work in order to ensure the greatest possible impact and the greatest possible legacy from all of this. But, for me to be clear, as we as a Government proceed, this is the kind of change that you will see—we will be looking at detailed planning before making applications, and not, as we saw under Labour, doing the thinking once something has been delivered for Wales.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

The Welsh Labour spokesperson, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to raise a question on esports, which, as most people I think know, is short for electronic sports, which refers to organised competitive video gaming where individuals or teams compete in specific games for prizes, ranking or prestige. Esports have developed from a casual hobby into a structured global industry with leagues, governing bodies, teams, sponsors and dedicated venues. In Wales, the industry is growing rapidly. From my days of being a college lecturer, it was very popular. Esports Wales runs multiple official tournaments throughout the Welsh esports league, and the student esports championships. These events include seasonal leagues, open tournaments and school and college competitions, with structured formats and prize money. Will the Minister dedicate some of the money given to support the creative industries to esports as part of a comprehensive esports strategy?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for being someone that does raise esports frequently, and I agree with you—we do need to do more in terms of esports. There hasn't been enough of a strategy or enough appreciation of their importance here in Wales. Through Creative Wales, we have supported a number of joint projects with Esports Wales. A number of these projects have developed digital skills, technical skills, broadcasting skills, and have raised awareness and strengthened pathways to the future. I will meet shortly with Esports Wales, and I look forward to carrying on that discussion. Clearly, as the work goes ahead, I am very content to update the Member, and also all Members of the Senedd, on this work.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you very much for that answer. As you may remember, in November 2024, the then Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant, took part in a landmark event in the Senedd to promote Wales's thriving esports industry and the Government's commitment to providing the safest and most engaging environment for young gamers. At the event, the Minister said that esports

'is a priority sector for the Welsh Government and I’m keen do all I can to support its growth and gain an international reputation for Wales as a centre for this rapidly growing industry.'

Esports Wales have garnered significant success in recent years, with notable achievements, such as winning a gold medal in the Rocket League open competition at the Commonwealth Esports Championships. The team also secured a silver medal in the eFootball women's competition and a bronze in the eFootball open competition. I was very pleased, in the event we had here, to see Peter Fox in action playing esports. Are esports a priority for this Government, and have they a date for another esports event at the Senedd?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member. I hope that I have responded to that question in my first response. Yes, I do think that they're important, and I think more needs to be done. And unlike Ministers in the past, I don't just believe in warm words—I believe in taking action and putting a strategy in place. So the fact that you're still asking that question, despite the commitment being made by a previous Labour Minister in 2024, says it all, I'm afraid, in terms of the portfolio I've inherited.

Certainly, we do need to do more. I give you that commitment, and I will discuss further with Esports Wales. I also attended that event, and I took part in some of those esports. No, I wasn't very good at them, but it was very good to see esports in action here in the Senedd.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

Minister, last week, a member of Amgueddfa Cymru staff said that the national museum had become increasingly dysfunctional and described a culture of managed decline, individual posturing, and a lack of professional stewardship of the national collection. They also raised the fact that any additional public funding provided, as part of the centenary of the museum, could fail to deliver its objectives unless the issues identified were examined and addressed properly. Minister, what is your response to those concerns? And following on from your earlier responses, what kind of discussions have you had with Amgueddfa Cymru to secure public confidence in the governance and management of our national collections?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising this issue. I am aware of that article that was published on Nation.Cymru. It also included a response from Amgueddfa Cymru. I certainly am very alive to the questions that are being raised. I, like all of you, want to ensure value for money. I want to ensure the safety of our national collections, and I want to ensure a future for our national museums. There are questions in terms of the situation that I have inherited, and I am pursuing those. There are very live issues in terms of ensuring that we understand how National Museum Cardiff has reached this position where so much expenditure is needed.

I want to learn lessons so that we can avoid making the same mistakes going forward. But the commitment I give you is that we are working with Amgueddfa Cymru on developing proposals for the future. And central to everything that we want to do, as I said, is ensuring the future of our national museums and safeguarding our national collections, because they belong to the people of Wales—not the Government, not the museum, but the people of Wales, and Amgueddfa Cymru is answerable to the people of Wales.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

The culture and arts sector in Wales is at a crucial point, and the future now looks very vulnerable indeed. In the meantime, national museums across the globe are transforming into more interactive spaces, which are driven by technology, to engage with new audiences. For example, the Smithsonian has used podcasting successfully to bring history and culture to audiences beyond their physical sites. The Louvre has partnered with Snapchat to develop innovative interpretation equipment for six of its sections. And the V&A East museum has held a late-night programme, bringing together DJ residencies, temporary bars and access to exhibitions after hours.

So, Minister, what support is the Welsh Government providing to assist museums and other cultural organisations in Wales to modernise, so that they are relevant, accessible and competitive in an age that is increasingly digital and experience led? And what else can the Welsh Government do to help museums to attract new audiences, and to attract younger audiences too?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I think you are very likely to receive an invitation shortly from Amgueddfa Cymru to go to some their late-night events. I haven't attended any of those myself, but they have been doing these for quite a while now, and it's been great to see that cross-section of ages as these spaces become live at a time of night when I'm usually in bed, unfortunately. But there is very innovative work going on.

I have seen excellent examples of this across Wales. There have been examples of being able to stay overnight in some of our museums and so on, with your children, a night at the museum—not quite like the film, but that kind of atmosphere. So, I don't want to give the impression that we are not innovating here in Wales. Do I believe that there are more opportunities we could pursue? Yes. Do I believe that through our new culture and sport strategy it is necessary that digital is more prominent? Yes, I certainly do.

So, I think that we need to build on the innovative work that's happening, looking at the kind of things that we could be doing here in Wales. And by bringing the creative industries into that culture strategy, I think there is also an opportunity to develop partnerships between the creative industries and our cultural institutions, and that that is part of the strategy for the economy as well. So, there are opportunities to do more, but there is already innovation going on. We need to see more of that, and more investment in the strategy underlying it.

Catherine Cullen (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

3. What action is the Cabinet Minister taking to ensure that cost and location do not prevent young people from participating in sport? OQ64703

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

This is central to our vision for the culture and sport strategy. In our first 100 days in Government, we commissioned an investigation into sports facilities across Wales, and through Sport Wales, we are investing in affordable local opportunities, supporting community clubs to improve facilities, with targeted action to reach those who face the greatest barriers to participation.

Catherine Cullen (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Diolch, Drefnydd. In Blaenau Gwent, 49 per cent of children experience income deprivation—that's the highest proportion of any local authority in Wales. Meanwhile, in Caerphilly borough, Cefn Fforest leisure centre has had its hours reduced, with local reports highlighting a massive decline in visits compared to before the change. Behind every lost visit, as we know, is a child disengaging from sport, a missed opportunity and potential left unfulfilled.

Families in deprived communities can't always travel to the next leisure centre, particularly in areas with limited cross-valley transport links. We know that sport improves physical and mental well-being, builds confidence and opens doors for young people. So, what specific investment can Blaenau Gwent, Rhymney and Caerphilly expect, and will you prioritise maintaining vital existing facilities in the deprived communities, rather than directing further investment towards areas that are already better served? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I have been clear since taking post that we do want to ensure equal access for everyone in Wales, and that we do recognise the barriers that currently exist—barriers that I have to work on a cross-portfolio basis to overcome. I’m pleased that Mark Hooper is here—we’ve had a number of discussions in relation to the role that transport plays in allowing access to opportunities and facilities. I know through my own casework of a number of families who have been in touch with me to say that if they don't have a car, just how challenging it is for their children to be part of a football or rugby team, because they can't get to games on the weekends. Fewer clubs can afford to get minibuses, where they may have done so in the past. These are challenges and there are no overnight solutions.

There is investment taking place through the community facilities programme in Blaenau Gwent and also through Sport Wales in Caerphilly. I do think that what we need to look at is that if we are investing in facilities, how then can we support people to overcome the other barriers preventing them from participating. There are excellent programmes in Caerphilly, such as Let's Go Girls, which is an excellent example where they can provide support. But in looking at the culture and sport strategy more broadly, I'm eager to hear directly from young people and from families about the challenges that they're currently experiencing, and I would encourage all Senedd Members to contribute ideas to what would make a difference to your constituents.

Shav Taj (Labour, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

In Cardiff, affordable indoor sport provision is essential given our reputation as a rainy city, yet rising court and hall hire costs are increasingly pricing out grass-roots clubs and working-class families. At the same time, it took 10 years of campaigning and partnership working between Basketball Wales and Cardiff Council to secure refurbishment of the outdoor courts at Roath Pleasure Gardens—a project that's going to be a genuine game-changer for the local community. Whilst investment in facilities is welcome, many young people still face financial barriers to participation. So, what specific action is the Welsh Government taking to support grass-roots clubs and ensure that a young person's opportunity to play sport is determined by their talent and ambition, not their postcode or their parents' ability to cough up?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you. That's the very work that we're doing now by working on a cross-portfolio basis. The fact that we have committed to ensuring, through the new child poverty strategy, that culture, sport and participation in those is a central part of that work is important. The fact in the past has been that that hasn't been a sufficient factor. We all know of the barriers in place. We all know that the participation gap is widening, reliant on family income, and that's not how it should be. So, I am asking you all, Members who have examples of projects that are truly making a difference, where do you think we should be focusing our resources. Please share those with us as we develop a strategy that truly will tackle these challenges.

I agree that there are excellent pockets of practice in Cardiff and in different parts of Wales, but, often, pilot schemes come to an end, although we know that they work. I do want to ensure, if there is a pilot, that we then look as to whether there is funding available to continue with that work. There are also some projects where sponsorship comes in and some businesses who can provide more into the community, that that is targeted and supported in order to allow those projects to proceed. I don't have all of the solutions in terms of 'how' at the moment, but this is part of the work we're undertaking.

Zaynub Akbar (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Participating in sport brings many benefits, as we all know. It provides physical health, mental health and well-being, while also providing opportunities to build community and bring people together. But barriers to participation can prevent people from accessing these benefits altogether. Sport Wales's 'State of the Nation' report for 2024-25 notes that two of the three factors most likely to encourage future participation in sport are if there were more facilities, clubs or groups in their area, and if it cost less.

There are pockets in my constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, more specifically in Cardiff east, where public transport is infrequent and expensive. And with the decline in youth centres and community facilities in recent years following cuts, it feels as though this problem is only getting worse. I appreciate you've already answered part of this question, but I wanted to ask what action is being taken to measure and address transport-related barriers specifically, and how you're working with the Deputy Minister for Transport to make sure that there is participation for low-income families.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you. As I said, these are ongoing conversations. The fact that we have the Deputy First Minister leading on child poverty, the fact that we have Mark Hooper leading on transport, that you have me, and that we also have Nerys Evans, who is looking at the preventative health aspect and public health aspects, all working on this in order to ensure that the plans that we put in place do tackle these challenges, I hope can give you an assurance that we all understand the role that we have to play. I'm not just standing here saying, 'This is a problem for transport', but what we're trying to work together on is the solutions and on how we can make it more affordable. Because, at the end of the day, if people can't access sport and can't participate, then, ultimately, they're going to cost more to the health service, be that because of mental health or physical health. That preventative side is crucially important, but I do recognise that these challenges are very real at present. We're not going to change this overnight, but we do have to move to a preventative agenda here in Wales, and that is this Government's commitment.

Alun Cox (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

4. How is the Government ensuring that participation in sport is accessible to all in Afan Ogwr Rhondda? OQ64712

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for the question. We are working through Sport Wales and local partners to make sport accessible to everyone in Afan Ogwr Rhondda. I have already mentioned that there are challenges and barriers in place, and through the new culture and sport strategy, we want to address those barriers.

Alun Cox (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, Minister. I should've started by saying, 'Shwmae?'

Alun Cox (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Minister, the programme for government commits to prioritising equality of access to sport for people of all ages, backgrounds and abilities, as well as increasing participation and improving grass-roots facilities. Back in June, I had the opportunity to visit the Margam Stags inclusion football festival, bringing together children and young people of different ages and abilities. The Margam Football Club Inclusion Stags are well known in my constituency for the invaluable opportunities they provide for people who might otherwise face significant barriers to taking part in sport.

I also recently visited Afan United's brand-new facilities in Sandfields, where a major investment has transformed the site into a high-quality community football hub. This has put modern sporting facilities right on the doorstep of a community where levels of deprivation are high. These are the kinds of projects that can make equality of access a reality and give young people opportunities they might not otherwise have had. Minister, how will the Government ensure that its commitment to improve grass-roots facilities is targeted towards those communities and groups where barriers to participation are greatest?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for that supplementary question. It's great to hear about the important projects that are currently proceeding, and one of the things that I hope that you and other Members will do, through that call for evidence, is to provide those examples where this is happening. It's not something that can happen in the future, it is already happening in our communities. But there is a risk that, without investment, that work won't continue, and also, as you mentioned, that there is an inequality of access, because if you don't have that group, then you don't have an opportunity to participate.

So, it's important that we learn from those examples that work, and then we look at how that can be duplicated in a way that works for that community, because all communities will be different in terms of solutions. But certainly, that's the kind of evidence that we are gathering at the moment. I'm always willing to visit any examples; I am opening myself up to further invitations here.

But it is also important that we highlight the opportunities that already exist, because some people simply aren't aware of what's available in their communities. So, there is a role for us too to be using our platforms in order to share that information. There is more that we can do too through things like social prescribing in order to encourage those who find it difficult, even when that kind of facility or provision is available locally.

Steve Bayliss (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Cabinet Minister, accessible sport means good facilities close to home, with affordable, fair access to every club, school and girls' team. I welcome your expansion support for artificial pitches. In May 2024, the then Cabinet Secretary told this Chamber that the Rhondda third generation facility was a Welsh Rugby Union priority, with Coleg y Cymoedd identified as a potential solution. She urged partners to work towards applying in the following financial year. More than two years on, our community needs a clear route forward. Will you confirm whether an application has been submitted for that proposal, and whether this year's funding could support a modern fourth generation all-weather rugby pitch that meets the required standards for training and competitive matches while the Sport Wales audit proceeds? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you for your question. I don't know, but I will endeavour to find out what the situation is. You will also appreciate that it was a different party and a different Minister that gave that response at that time, but I'm happy to follow up and ensure you receive that response.

Benjamin McKenna (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote the growth of esports in Wales? OQ64683

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Creative Wales have supported Esports Wales to develop skills and creative career pathways linked to esports. We actively consider proposals for economic investment in esports as they arise, and we continue to support Wales’s wider video games industry through development and production funding, skills programmes and trade opportunities. For example, in September we took a delegation of eight Welsh games developers to the Tokyo Game Show. But as you heard in my response to Mike Hedges earlier on today, there is more that I believe we could be doing, and we will be looking into this as we develop a new strategy.

Benjamin McKenna (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you. Esports is something that I'm deeply passionate about, and I didn't expect, before coming down to the Chamber today, to be beaten to the post by the Labour spokesman on this issue, but I'm glad that it has happened. One area that I'd like to talk about is the benefits that esports events could bring to Wales. Stockton University in the United States described esports tournaments and events as 'the untapped tourism opportunity'. The Greater London Authority recently estimated that a single esports event, the 2025 BLAST Premier London Open, generated more than £30 million of economic impact for the city. Now, the mayor of London has recently set out an ambition to put London at the heart of global esports, and I see no reason why we shouldn't have a similar ambition here in Wales so that we can enjoy the benefits of this growing industry. So, will you commit today to take positive action to help attract more esports events to Wales? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you for the question. I believe that there's a new cross-party group going to be set up on esports. We have two parties here who have already committed to that, and hopefully the assurance I've given you that I recognise that we could be doing more in terms of esports in Wales—. I agree with that, and I am very keen to hear ideas from any Members in terms of how we could incorporate that within a new strategy.

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Plaid Cymru, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

6. Will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the new national school swimming and water safety programme? OQ64701

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member. Nofio Ysgol is our new national school swimming and water safety programme, providing pupils in years 4 and 5 with a consistent national offer of at least 20 swimming and water safety lessons. This work began in nine local authorities in September, marking the first phase of a planned Wales-wide roll-out.

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Plaid Cymru, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Learning to swim is one of the best gifts you can give a child. I have had the privilege of swimming in the Hampstead Heath ponds, the Serpentine, Lake Bled, off the Isle of Skye and a good deal of the west coast, and one day I'm going to do a swimathon again. It is a skill that you can keep for life, takes you to places you would never dream of and takes you around the world. But not every child has the benefit of that kind of start. Swim Wales found that only 42 per cent of children in years 3 to 6 could swim 25m unaided, which is a serious figure for a country with our coastline, and it's also a safety issue. So, I welcome this programme, but could the Cabinet Minister please outline how it will get to grips with teaching children in areas where there is little provision or where the pools have closed down, as free lessons are not much use if there's no place to have them?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you. That is exactly why we are looking at facilities across Wales, and that is why we are starting with nine local authorities in different parts of Wales—some rural, where swimming pools have closed down—to understand those challenges and to understand how we prioritise investment. We do know at the moment that only 13 per cent of children under 11 do take swimming lessons on an extracurricular basis. We also know that there are thousands of children that leave primary school every year being unable to swim.

It is a skill that can save lives. It's a skill that can keep you active throughout your life as well, because it's one of the few sports that you can do at any age. So, that is why we are committed to this, and it was wonderful to see, at a recent visit with the First Minister, these lessons being provided, and seeing even those children who could already swim developing their skills in terms of saving lives and what to do in a position if they were to fall into water unexpectedly or in facilities where the water is very cold, so that they understood the dangers. It's not just a matter of learning to swim, but learning life-saving skills too.

Lyn Ackerman (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

7. Will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the Sport Wales audit of regional and community sports facilities? OQ64715

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member. This work is going ahead, reviewing the information held by governing bodies, local authorities and other partners to build a national picture of community, regional and national sports facilities across Wales. This initial work will start by identifying gaps in the evidence and developing options for presenting and maintaining the data, helping to inform future strategic capital investment.

Lyn Ackerman (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Cefn Fforest Leisure Centre remains open, but Caerphilly council significantly reduced its opening hours in 2025 and closed the fitness suite. Will the Sport Wales data capture include changes to opening hours, the facility availability at each site and the distance to alternative provision, so that the future capital investment reflects the level of provision communities have access to?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

The initial phase is looking at the sites. We are also looking at what additional data is available, including on opening hours and so forth. What's difficult at the moment is that we don't have a full picture in order to be able to understand what the barriers are and what are the things that could change and where investment would make that difference. So, that work is going ahead, and I will ensure that I have raised with Sport Wales what you've raised today, to ensure that opening hours form part of that, so that we can try and see the fullest possible picture. There are challenges, because some local authorities hold this data, but we know that a lot of local authorities also have outsourced some of these services, so it is difficult to access that data in some cases, but we are trying to get the fullest possible picture.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you. The final question, Minister, question 8, Safa Elhassan.

Safa Elhassan (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to cultural, sporting and recreational activities in Gŵyr Abertawe? OQ64707

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

The Welsh Government, and myself as Minister, are committed to ensuring that culture and sport are accessible to everyone. he work on developing a new culture and sport strategy for Wales is enabling us to look at how we can support that aim. Through the call for evidence, we want to hear from people in communities across Wales, including in Gŵyr Abertawe, ensuring that a broad range of voices and experiences helps shape how culture, the arts and sport are accessed and experienced.

Safa Elhassan (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Diolch, Minister. On a recent visit to Sketty Youth Club, alongside the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Welsh Language, I saw first-hand how a welcoming community centre can bring children, parents and grandparents together through outdoor activities. Groups such as Sketty Tea Lounge 50-plus club also show how important it is to create opportunities for older people to stay active, connected and engaged.

In Swansea bay, the HARBWR project provides another excellent example, using creative and cultural activities to support people experiencing loneliness and poor mental health. As a clinician, I know that prevention starts long before someone reaches a hospital or a GP surgery.

How will the culture and sports strategy help bring community organisations and health services together, so that more people across Gŵyr Abertawe can benefit from affordable cultural and recreational activities to improve well-being and help prevent ill health?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member. It's wonderful to hear about the excellent things happening in your constituency, and I do enjoy hearing of these examples. That's why it is so important that all of us do contribute these ideas and these examples to the development of the strategy, so that we seek to ensure that consistency. I do hope that the commitment that you've heard from me again today, commitments that you've heard from the Cabinet Minister for health and the two Deputy Ministers on health, also does demonstrate that we are working together on this issue.

I've had enough, and I've said regularly, having read reports that say that Wales needs to move towards a preventative agenda, that that work has to start, and it has started. It will take time to change systems, but we have to do it. We know that culture and sports do have a positive impact on physical and mental health, so the work we're doing now is to look at how we can ensure that all of the systems that have operated in silos can concord, and that we can get the potential of culture and sport delivered in terms of health, in terms of the economy and in terms of the future of our nation.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you very much, Minister.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Finance

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

We'll move on now to questions to the Cabinet Minister for Finance. Question 1—Rebeca Phillips.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

1. Will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the review of the local government funding formula? OQ64711

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

The Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning is proceeding with the local government funding formula review in partnership with local authorities. This includes joint technical work with local government and independent research through the Wales Centre for Public Policy. We're expecting a report during the summer of 2027 on this work.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you very much. As a former county councillor of 14 years, I welcome this Government's commitment to renewing the relationship between the Welsh Government and local authorities by ensuring that they are full partners in the design and the delivery of public services. Local authorities do excellent work across our communities, and we will rely on them to deliver many of this Government's priorities. It is therefore essential that the funding formula reflects the true cost of service delivery in different parts of Wales. Could the Minister therefore provide information on the discussions she has had with the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning and with the Welsh Local Government Association regarding this matter? Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you for that supplementary question, and may I agree with the Member that county councils in Wales play a crucial role in delivering public services and play a crucial role in terms of how this Government will deliver its programme for government, and they play a key role, of course, in providing for and representing people at a local level? So, the funding of local government to allow them to deliver in that way is important in that regard.

Now, there was a question on the discussions that I've been having with the Minister for local government in terms of appropriate funding for local authorities—yes, certainly, that is happening as part of the discussions around the preparation of the annual budget for Wales. Last week, I believe, I met, along with the Minister for local government, with local authorities in the WLGA finance sub-group as we discussed the annual budget, and changes and the discussion around the funding formula too. So, that ongoing relationship and discussion with local government is very important to this Government in order to deliver all of the work that our county councils are responsible for doing.

Gareth Beer (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

Cabinet Minister, whilst your colleague is in America deep-seeking the meaning of artificial intelligence, and the First Minister is running around Cardiff market, there are some very pressing challenges in Carmarthenshire affecting rural communities. Cash-strapped councils are being forced into short-term, penny-pinching false economies like threatening to close our small rural schools. In fact, two schools were closed today. Councils must manage their money, yes, I absolutely agree, but when will the Welsh Government prioritise ours? Will this funding formula finally direct real taxpayers' money to safeguard these small rural schools, the beating hearts of our communities? Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Well, the promotion of Wales overseas is an important aspect of the work that this Government wants to accomplish on behalf of businesses and communities in Wales. The First Minister was drinking a cup of coffee in a corridor as I passed him on the way down to the Chamber earlier, gallivanting nowhere at that point, hot coffee in his hand. Can I just say that, as I answered Rebeca earlier, local authorities provide a really key role in being able to deliver services—education, social services—in all our communities in Wales? They face tough, challenging budgetary situations, as we do as a national Government as well. Taking these decisions at a local level is important. We believe in the decentralisation of decision making in Wales, not setting arbitrary caps on local authorities in terms of the money that they have the ability to spend, as you will want to propose later on this afternoon. They have to take difficult decisions. I represent a constituency west of yours, also rural in nature. I've seen local schools at times have to be closed; I've seen campaigns to save local schools, and those local schools remain open today. These are complex decisions that local communities and their representatives have to take, and should not be trivialised in this place; they need to follow the processes, listen to the voices of those people involved, and take the right decisions. It's not for us to dictate the decisions that should be taken locally.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Casnewydd Islwyn)

The key drivers of demand on local authority budgets include population, school numbers, social care and deprivation. Any changes to the weighting of these indicators in the local government funding formula will have a huge impact on the ability of councils with the greatest population density and deprivation to deliver essential services. Following the Welsh Government's recent deviation from the established funding formula, councils with the highest levels of deprivation do need clarity. They need to know whether any lasting changes to the formula will come with any significant extra funding or will the funding pot still be the same.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you. You outline the challenges, of course, with the creation of a funding formula that works for all communities and all local authorities across Wales, as diverse as they are for us in Wales. The review that is now being undertaken, part of it in direct partnership and in collaboration with local government, the technical review, part of that is updating and recalibrating the formula while retaining its established needs-based methodology, and initial work that's currently ongoing is focused on some of the areas you've identified, and they are the main areas of local government delivery, and they are on education and personal social services.

As I said in my initial answer, then, this work is ongoing and it is in partnership with local authorities. The final report on this work will be next summer, and that will then decide how we move forward on these issues. I suspect we'll have many conversations around these issues both here, but, importantly, between ourselves as a Government and local government, which are the essential deliverers of so many aspects of our public services and need to be funded according to the need that they need to deliver in a variety of different circumstances.

Becca Martin (Plaid Cymru, Clwyd)

2. What discussions has the Cabinet Minister had with HM Treasury and HMRC regarding the potential impact of the Welsh Government’s proposed Cynnal payments on recipients’ tax and benefits status? OQ64718

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I have written to the Chancellor and Financial Secretary to the Treasury to request a tax exemption for Cynnal. I've also raised the issue in a meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. In discussions with the Minister of State in the Department for Work and Pensions, the Deputy First Minister has also requested that the payment be disregarded for benefits calculation purposes. I also welcome the Prime Minister's positive comments to explore these matters further.

Becca Martin (Plaid Cymru, Clwyd)

Diolch. On average, across Wales, around one in three children live in poverty, with some of the most deprived wards found in Clwyd, which is where I represent. We often talk about food poverty and fuel poverty, but I want to draw the Siambr's attention to another less visible consequence of poverty, and that is bed poverty. Too many children are sleeping in broken or unsuitable beds, having to share beds or regularly sleeping on sofas, chairs or even floors because they simply cannot afford an adequate bed. Sleep deprivation can affect almost every major system of the body. The introduction of the Cynnal payment is obviously very welcome, but we must ensure that this does not affect other means-tested benefits. Furthermore, if we're serious about creating lasting change for children living in poverty, we need the powers to tackle that poverty ourselves. I understand from news sources that there's been some discussion around this, but will the Minister commit to not only continuing discussions with the relevant departments to ensure Cynnal payments do not affect means-tested benefits, but also to pressing the UK Government for the full devolution of welfare powers to Wales?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you. You outline in your question the real, debilitating impact of poverty on children in our communities, and that's why this Government is seeking to introduce a child poverty payment, direct payment, in the form of our Cynnal scheme. It will be very difficult for us as a Government to introduce that pilot if we are not given those exemptions to benefits by the UK Government, so we are pursuing vigorously a decision by the UK Government to exempt the Cynnal payment from any impact on benefits or taxes. So, we will be pursuing those. And I'm hoping, even in my letter to the UK Government, that this could be something the UK Government provides clarity on in the budget in April. And just to say, in terms of the full devolution of welfare—or progress on the devolution of welfare—then that is certainly something that the First Minister is pursuing as part of the need to see greater devolution. We've seen how the part devolution of welfare for Scotland has enabled a child poverty payment to be made in Scotland, and we are prevented from doing so at this point by some of the restrictions around our devolution settlement. So, we need to change that in order to help us with the work that we want to tackle in terms of child poverty.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Minister, Labour rejected your supplementary budget in July. Mark Drakeford suggested that they should have accepted the deal. And now, Labour and Plaid have reached an agreement. The old band is back together, playing live on the stage of failed promises. [Interruption.] Your defeated budget proposed £2 million for Cynnal payments, but up to 15,000 children could be affected, and that would cost £7.8 million over a year before administration costs.

As recently as 7 October, you were still seeking safeguards from HM Revenue and Customs and the Department for Work and Pensions to prevent families losing out through tax or reduced benefits. It's good to hear your statement, but why on earth announce financial help before securing the protections needed to ensure recipients actually benefit? That looks short-sighted and publicity-seeking. Does this risk become another disingenuous Plaid manifesto promise scuppered by inadequate preparation and uncertainty over funding? Minister, does your agreement with Labour fund the financial support needed to deliver Cynnal from the first payment and beyond the original £2 million budget? Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

The Cynnal payment is no longer just a manifesto commitment, it is a pledge of the Government elected by the people of Wales in May. We've moved on from a manifesto, so keep up. The programme for government, of course, wants to implement and, across our work as a Government, tackle child poverty, for the clear reasons outlined by Becca in her earlier question. So, we need to be progressing this. We think that there are very straightforward measures that the UK Government could take to enable us to introduce this payment. Designing the Cynnal payment pilot, as it will be, continues as part of the work of this Government now, and, as I've already outlined, we'll be continuing discussions with the UK Government to enable us to bring it into action.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. Reform UK spokesperson, Cai Parry-Jones.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, on 15 September, your Government announced—fronted, I noticed, by the First Minister—that, to pay for rate cuts for smaller venues, it would raise the tax on Wales's largest business premises. Eight days later, Admiral, Wales's only FTSE 100 company, announced 500 job cuts, and Legal & General, which employs more than 2,000 people in Cardiff, announced 1,000 job cuts. Now, Admiral had already told the markets back in March that it had to find £100 million of savings. So, you knew some of our biggest employers were under pressure and you still decided to send them a bigger tax bill. Your impact assessment, released later, on 6 October, speculates about jobs that might be created in hospitality, but, crucially, it says nothing about the potential job losses for the businesses having to pay more. So, a simple question, Minister: will you publish a full assessment of the jobs impact of your tax rise before this Senedd is asked to vote on it—'yes' or 'no'?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I'm not aware of anything that those companies that have regrettably announced job losses have said that it is in any way as a result of the 30 per cent reduction in the business rates available to the leisure and hospitality industries in Wales. They are large companies and they will want to see a workforce that works for them in Wales, that are living in vibrant communities, vibrant city centres here in Cardiff. As part of providing for ensuring that we have the ability for smaller businesses to continue trading in our city centres and in our high streets, then this Government took the decision to reduce those business rates on the hospitality and leisure sectors. So, I hope that you will be supporting that, and any information that you believe I need to provide in order to facilitate your support for the reduction of business rates for our pubs and clubs, then I'd be happy to supply that for you.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Did the Minister answer the question?

Iain McIntosh (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

I don't think so.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

No. Last week, the Deputy Minister for Transport told us that work on a third Menai crossing starts now, which is warm words, but my colleagues were right to ask where the money is, because Wales has been here before. The M4 relief road, originally promised in 1991, millions spent on planning and then scrapped, partly over funding issues. And, yes, the third crossing, originally promised in 2018, £3 million spent on planning and then scrapped, partly over funding issues. The current estimate for this project today is £670 million, yet only £20 million to £25 million has been budgeted over the next five years for it, and that's just been for planning.

We can see where this is going, Minister: you'll kick the big spending can down the road while you're in the job, a future finance Minister will announce we don't have enough money and then quietly shelve it. A sad transportation groundhog day. So, Minister, will you prove me wrong and pledge where the money to build the bridge will come from in this Senedd term?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

This is most definitely not groundhog day for the Menai bridge. I would have said that last week was very much a first day of a big announcement by this Government on the future of a third Menai crossing. In Government, in this Senedd, when you have been here a longer time, you will know that large infrastructure projects take a long time to deliver. Therefore, if you don't start today and start the planning and fund the planning, as this Government is doing for the Menai bridge, then you will not get to that day when there is a third Menai bridge. So, you have to start and then you continue that work. This Government has started the process of designing the work that's needed to improve the resilience of the two bridges in place today and tackle the need for a third Menai crossing. We're committed to doing that work, to funding that work in its development phases, and, hopefully, both you and I will be here long enough to see that third Menai bridge built.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Minister, you've spent five months in this job. Let's look at your record: you're responsible for the first Welsh Government budget ever to be defeated in the history of devolution; you've twice managed to vote against your own Government, by mistake; you've had to correct the record for getting financial figures wrong in the Chamber; and, just now, you've failed to explain where the money's going to come from for the third Menai crossing. That is why I wasn't surprised that, when your Government needed to negotiate with my party for the next supplementary budget, it didn't send you, it sent the Minister for Government effectiveness. I have a source saying the exact same thing happened with the Labour negotiations. The First Minister said he had learnt lessons over the summer. The lesson, it appears, is to sideline you. So, Minister, who is actually running the Welsh Government's finances? And given it clearly isn't you, is it not time to officially hand over the reins to someone more competent?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

When you've been here 27 years and you've only manage to vote wrong twice, then maybe I can come back to you and see what your record will be like in 27 years. Look, you can trivialise these spokespeople questions if you want to. There are really important questions that could be asked at this point, and you've asked whether it's Dafydd Trystan or myself that turned up to a meeting with you. I am the Minister for finance. There are others in this Government who will also be negotiating with people across this Senedd, both on funding and on legislation. We do not work as a silo in this Government; we work as a team. I don't know how you work within Reform—I'd love an insight into that. But, as a Government, we are committed to working with you and with all parties here to secure Senedd support for a budget that enables public services to be delivered in Wales.

It is easy to sit on a Reform bench, or even a Tory bench, and always vote 'no'. The difficult bit of this work, you will find, is to find—[Inaudible.] I apologise for dragging another political party into this. I shouldn't have done that, and I was trivialising at that point. You will find, in the work of forging co-operation and ensuring the need to pass budgets and pass legislation in this place—because ultimately that is why we are voted to this place by the people of Wales—that you need to talk across political parties and within political parties, and that's what I'll continue to do.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Huw Thomas.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Thanks, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I wish you both a happy shwmae? Minister, as we've already heard, the major news this week was the agreement on the supplementary budget. May I thank you personally for your meetings with me and the fact that we've been able to come positively to an agreement that ensures £60 million additionally for schools and colleges for additional learning needs? This is a victory. I visited a school in Pentrebane in Cardiff west this morning. It's obviously going to make a huge difference that that funding is going to come through immediately now.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

We are clear that this money is an important down payment, but it's not enough. Further funding is required. You have spoken previously about your concerns about in-year overspends within the NHS and so the need to hold money back, unallocated, to address that concern. I accept that as a prudent argument at the moment, but what are you doing to drive those overspends down? In a written question answer to me—

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Huw, can you conclude, please?

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

If I can just put this across. A month or two ago, the net annual deficit forecast for health boards was £333 million. What is that figure now? Have you managed to get that figure down, so that we can unlock additional funding for schools and colleges?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Shwmae. Shwmae to the whole Chamber this afternoon. It was important that we came to an agreement and that there will, hopefully, now be a majority in this Chamber to allow that expenditure on additional learning needs, which needs that £60 million that will be voted on in the next few weeks, so that that important funding reaches our schools and colleges in order to ensure that the pressure our schools are currently under is alleviated somewhat. I know that you believe that more funding is required, and some follow-up to that funding in future, and that's something that this Chamber as a whole will need to discuss as we bring forward the budget for next year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

In reference to the particular challenges within the NHS and in financial control within the NHS, this is an issue that I am continuing to have conversations on with the health department and the health Minister. We do need to ensure that we get to a situation where we are confident at the start of a financial year that the NHS is able to live within the means of the budget that it's been allocated for that year. There is considerable inflation within the NHS—in public services in general, but particularly in the NHS—and that is once again because it's in the wider economy and that is a challenge to our NHS budget management. These are issues that we continue to need to grapple with and they have very real life consequences for people out there who receive services from the NHS.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Thanks. I didn't hear a figure there of what the overspend had declined by, so perhaps we could correspond by letter on that. One of your priorities as a Government is the childcare offer. One of our priorities is to ensure fair pay in the economy.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Welsh Labour's manifesto made a commitment to ensuring that businesses receiving Welsh Government support pay the real living wage. I've asked previously whether businesses funded through the childcare offer will be mandated to pay the real living wage. I've not had a clear answer on that yet, but I note your programme for government commits you to adopting a 'fair work first' approach to public sector grants, loans and contracts. I wonder what progress have you made in putting that commitment into practice. Specifically, will payment of the real living wage become a condition of public sector contracts and financial support to businesses? And what is the timetable for introducing those requirements? Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

On the current position, in terms of the NHS position within the financial year, I'm happy to write to you further on the exact position as we are in month 6 or 7 of the financial year.

It is our commitment as a Government to ensure that there is fair pay for fair work and we are looking to embed that across our work as a Government, whether that is in the wages available to people who undertake contracts for the Welsh public sector, but also in terms of the question that you pose in particular there, the grants available to businesses. So, I'll need to take that particular part of the question away and write to you to confirm on that one what the intention of the economy Minister is on that particular aspect of the question.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Minister, in May of this year, Plaid Cymru stood on a platform of change. Of course, we've seen in 2007 the One Wales coalition that Plaid Cymru had with Labour for a four-year period; in 2021, there was the co-operation agreement that Plaid Cymru had with Labour throughout that term; in 2025, the budget deal between Plaid Cymru and Labour for this next financial year again. And of course, yesterday, you announced a deal with Welsh Labour for the supplementary budget again. I wonder how this signals a platform of change that Plaid Cymru stood on in May.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Interesting for me, this analysis of who works with who, because if we think about the supplementary budget and if we think of how that supplementary budget will progress its way through the Senedd, then it may well be that it's supported by one or two political parties here. It may be that it's allowed through by another political party, but it may be voted against by another cosy consensus between Reform and the Tories here. Alliances work in different ways in this place. I'm always keen to look to see how we create new alliances. I'm always keen to work with political parties across this Chamber. You know, I love it when the whole Chamber works together as one, but that doesn't seem to be the pattern of the day these days.

So, this Government has a programme for government for the next four years. It is a programme of change. A budget will be announced in the next few weeks that will enable that programme to move up a gear. We are a Government of change. That programme is the first programme for government that is not a Labour programme for government. That is change in itself and it will do different things.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. I'm sure you can appreciate that when you say it's a Government of change, but continuing the same alliances that have taken place many times during the 27 years of this Senedd, it's hard for the electorate to understand how those two things can be true at once. And of course, during that campaign, you claimed that the economic plan would unlock potential, support good jobs and grow businesses, and in forming a new Welsh Government, many people hoped for a shift away from 27 years of working with Labour in one way or another. Instead, we see that deal being done again.

In particular, around the issue around additional learning needs, it's absolutely right that funding has been allocated to those children with additional learning needs. But a single-year assessment is not enough to provide schools, teachers, parents and learners with the certainty that they desperately need. The National Association of Head Teachers have told us that this deal falls significantly short of ALN's identified need in Wales. The Welsh Labour leader himself said yesterday that the ALN sector needed long-term sustainability. It baffles the mind as to why a long-term deal, therefore, wasn't agreed to. So, I wonder if you believe, in your heart of hearts, that the Plaid Cymru and Labour supplementary budget deal will bring the change that Wales needs, does do enough to expand support for ALN learners, and will help grow the economy across the whole of Wales.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

has been allocated to those children with additional learning needs. But a single year assessment is not enough to provide schools, teachers, parents, and learners with the certainty that they desperately need. And the National Association of Head Teachers have told us that this deal falls significantly short of the need identified by the ALN sector in Wales. And the Welsh Labour leader himself said yesterday that the ALN sector needed long-term sustainability. It baffles the mind as to why a long-term deal, therefore, wasn't agreed to. So, I wonder if you believe, in your heart of hearts, that the Plaid Cymru-Labour supplementary budget deal will bring the change that Wales needs, does do enough to expand support for ALN learners, and will help grow the economy across the whole of Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Well, that supplementary budget is of course much more than just the £60 million of additional funding for additional learning needs. That in itself is important and is an addition to the budget that was discussed here in the summer, and that's an important contribution that will now go directly to schools and colleges in Wales. It won't go as a result of you voting against the supplementary budget, or Reform possibly voting against the supplementary budget. It'll go because Plaid Cymru will vote for that supplementary budget, and Labour will allow that supplementary budget to pass. It is because of our actions that it will go, not your actions. So, that is a contribution that will make a difference to young people in Wales, and just continually voting against delivers nothing.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Question 3, Stephen Senior.

Stephen Senior (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the land transaction tax since its introduction in 2018? OQ64688

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Land transaction tax has made a significant contribution to the Welsh budget since its introduction in 2018. It's provided over £2.5 billion for vital public services and infrastructure in Wales.

Stephen Senior (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

I've referred to my register of interest. I want to focus on two areas of concern, Minister. First, our first-time buyers—there is no first-time buyer relief in Wales. So, for example, if a first-time buyer buys a £300,000 house, they pay £4,500 more in tax than in England. The more expensive the house, the worse that gets.

Secondly, Wales has now got a punishing tax for those who buy more expensive homes. For example, a £1 million home in Wales requires £62,000 worth of tax— about half as much again as in England. Now, some people might think that's good. But let me remind you all that Wales has a worryingly small tax base: 1.1 per cent of taxpayers in Wales pay additional tax, compared to 1.5 per cent in the west midlands and 1.9 per cent in the south west. We should be worried about that.

Minister, Wales is getting poorer and the decisions made in this place over 27 years, which you've just reminded us of, have contributed to that. This tax policy was introduced by Mr Mark Drakeford. It acts as an incentive for young people to buy houses in England, and it acts as a disincentive for those who are more wealthy to move to Wales. Your Government claims to want a transformation of the Welsh economy—

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Can we have a question?

Stephen Senior (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Will you consider changing this structure or, even better, set a target for its abolition?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

The important piece of this jigsaw that you didn't mention there was that the land transaction tax in Wales has a much higher starting threshold than in England. So, the starting threshold in Wales is £225,000. There are around 55 per cent and more of transactions below the £225,000 threshold in Wales, and they pay no land tax at all—55 per cent of all transactions involving a primary residence pay no land transaction tax.

The highest starting rate—. The starting threshold in England is £125,000. Every house that is worth more than £125,000, and is between £125,000 and £225,000, pays land transaction tax or stamp duty in England. They don't in Wales. In Scotland, it's £145,000. So, in telling the story of land transaction tax, tell it all and then the full picture provides the balanced approach that this Government believes can continue. Although, I am willing to consider whether there is a need to think about first-time buyer relief.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

a need to think about first-time buyer relief. It's something that I'm interested, possibly, in looking at in this context, but very much the majority of first-time buyers are in that context of being under the threshold of £225,000. In fact, that £225,000 threshold is higher than the average house price in Wales of £215,000.

Nick Carter (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Cabinet Minister, I welcome this Government's commitment to review the land transaction tax, and a wider ambition to encourage empty buildings back into use. With Wales barely building half the homes it needs, every empty house counts.

One of my constituents in Caerdydd Ffynnon Taff, a small local property developer, has highlighted to me how the tax rules treat uninhabitable properties as residential because they can, in theory, be repaired. But these tumbledown houses, with no services, broken roofs and creeping damp are exactly the ones that we need to become homes. Yet developers pay higher rate land transaction tax on them, discouraging investment and regeneration.

Although the empty homes grant helps individual home owners, developers can't use it, and the higher rates refund available for landlords leasing back to councils also doesn't apply.

So, as you examine reform, would the Cabinet Minister consider a time-limited tax refund for local developers turning derelict properties into homes? Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you for that point. And, as you know, the Government is interested in being able to bring more empty properties back into active use, especially into residential use. And on the point that you've made there about the difficulties that some property developers may be finding in renovating and bringing vacant residential properties back into use because they are caught in the land transaction tax matter, and whether there is a way of providing land transaction relief or refund to incentivise property developers bringing properties back, it's an interesting area that I'm perfectly willing to look at as we look at how we use the land transaction tax to enable bringing empty properties back. I certainly wouldn't want it to be an active disincentive, so I will certainly look at how we can see whether there are ways of doing it in a way which enables bringing empty properties back into use.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Minister had with the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language regarding funding for further education? OQ64677

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

As part of the budget process, I have regular discussions with all Cabinet Ministers. Decisions on further education funding, like all budget decisions, are considered within wider Cabinet discussions on priorities.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you, Minister. Supporting learners with additional learning needs in the further education sector is becoming a major challenge, with Coleg y Cymoedd telling me that they have experienced almost a 50 per cent increase in the number of learners with ALN and individual development plans during the last academic year. Similarly, the College Merthyr Tydfil identifies not only increasing numbers of students with IDPs, but a stark growth in the numbers of learners identified with an ALN presently undergoing assessment processes to determine whether they require an IDP or additional support arrangements.

Now, I wholeheartedly welcome the supplementary budget deal that Welsh Labour has secured with your Government, with £60 million extra for additional learning needs, including £2.5 million for further education. But to support learners and staff effectively, this funding needs to be sustainable and long term.

So, what discussions will you have with colleagues to ensure that this is the case?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I certainly recognise that additional learning needs is a challenge in terms of funding and provision for colleges, post-16 education, as well as our schools. A lot of the focus of the discussion seems to be on schools, but it is a very real challenge for post-16 education as well. That's why I am pleased that, as part of that deal to secure progress on the supplementary budget, and the £60 million allocation for additional learning needs, £2.5 million of that is to go directly to colleges.

But another important aspect of that agreement of the £60 million package is that there is an allocation of funding also for the planning for a long-term sustainable model of funding for education and additional needs, so that, over time, we can get to a place where our local authorities, schools and colleges can plan provision to meet the need

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

local authorities, schools and colleges can plan provision to meet the need, and the ability to provide education comprehensively for all. We need to get to a better place than we are currently, and that's why we're committed to working with partners across this Chamber on how we can develop and place this on a sustainable footing to the future.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Question 5 has been withdrawn. Question 6, Sarah Rees.

Sarah Rees (Plaid Cymru, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

6. How will the Cabinet Minister ensure that gender budgeting becomes an integral part of budget development, decision-making and scrutiny during this Senedd? OQ64710

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

This Government is committed to tackling gender inequality and ensuring that equality is properly considered at every stage of budget decision making. Our primary focus as a Government is on the outcomes we achieve, and we must carefully consider which tools and mechanisms help us to make a real difference in people’s lives.

Sarah Rees (Plaid Cymru, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Diolch. I welcome that this Government is working towards its manifesto commitment to embed gender budgeting in Wales. International best practice places that responsibility for this with the Treasury—in that case, yourself, Minister—because budget decisions shape people's everyday lives. Gender budgeting can seem complex, so I'll attempt an everyday analogy: a good cook does not wait until the guests have eaten to find out whether their recipe worked. Tasting, or testing, happens beforehand, and Government should be no different. Gender budgeting is about assessing the impact of spending decisions before they are made, rather than discovering too late that they've deepened existing inequalities. The case in Wales is stark. Women are three times more likely than men to work part time, 3.5 times more likely to be economically inactive, because of caring responsibilities, and face a gender pay gap of 11.8 per cent. So, Minister, what leadership will you show to embed gender budgeting across Government?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I'm not sure if I pass cook test, but I'll try and pass the budget test, and there's a range of tools and approaches that can help us understand the impacts of spending decisions before we take them, and gender budgeting is certainly one of those tools. But there are constraints in terms of our capacity to embed this approach, especially in the context of this year's first budget.

The previous Government undertook gender budgeting pilots that you'll know about, I'm sure, and they provided useful learning. In particular, they highlighted the importance of considering gender early in policy development, rather than adding it later. So, I want to take that learning and consider where it can help us to make better decisions and deliver better outcomes. And if we think of that particularly in the context of where we are developing new programmes—we've spoken of Cynnal, free school swimming and our childcare offer—so that we are using gender budgeting in the context of new policy initiatives, as was highlighted by the gender budgeting pilots—. And, obviously, you've done previous work on gender budgeting, and I'd be happy to discuss this further with you in detail in how we move to embed that across Government, as we move through our budgeting processes.

Carmelo Colasanto (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

7. How will the Welsh Government's tax policies support people in Carmarthenshire? OQ64685 [R]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Taxes fund public services that benefit everyone. Fair and proportionate tax policies will support people and businesses in Carmarthenshire. Our changes to rebalance non-domestic rates will benefit communities by supporting vibrant high streets and town centres. The council tax reduction scheme directly supports over 15,000 households in Carmarthenshire.

Carmelo Colasanto (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. For many households in Carmarthenshire, the tax that bites the hardest is council tax. Recent analysis found that Welsh councils face a combined projected budget shortfall of more than £272 million next year, with Carmarthenshire's £34 million gap the second highest in Wales. Now, residents are already paying the price. Since 2022, the Plaid Cymru-led county council's band D charge, the benchmark that is used to compare council tax across Wales, and for which every other ban is set, has risen by more than 31 per cent, including an 8.9 per cent increase in 2025-26. Council tax may be set locally, but Welsh Ministers already retain powers to intervene where increases are considered excessive.

Reform's proposed requiring a local referendum before councils can increase council tax by more than 4.99 per cent, similar to the effective threshold applied to many councils in England.

Carmelo Colasanto (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

to many councils in England. So, will the Welsh Government adopt that protection so Carmarthenshire residents have the final say before they're hit yet again with rises on the scale that we have seen over the last four years? Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

This is a spoiler alert, but we will be voting against your motion later on at this point in terms of—. And we don't agree that capping local authorities' council tax is a way of enabling local authorities to take the decisions they need to take locally as elected members. The main determinant, of course, of council tax is probably still the financial settlement that this Government and this Senedd will pass in February of next year to local authorities. So, us deciding across the Senedd what the scope of that settlement for local authorities will be will be part of the work that we undertake over the next few months.

I already know and I'm already planning at this point that our settlement as a Welsh Government will be 0.7 per cent down in real terms for next year. It is a very challenging settlement unless there are changes from the UK Chancellor at the end of October in his budget. So, that is the crucial determinant of council tax: what is the size of the public sector funding available to local authorities.

And I'm hoping, hearing what you say, that you want to see good local settlements for local authorities, that you will work constructively with us to enable that to happen, just as Plaid Cymru enabled a good settlement to pass with working with the previous Welsh Government so that local government and the NHS were provided the best possible settlement as part of the budget deal of the last Senedd.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

And the final question to you, Minister, question 8—Anthony Slaughter.

Anthony Slaughter (Green, Caerdydd Penarth)

8. How will the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2027-28 ensure adequate investment in climate resilience? OQ64696

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Climate resilience is an important element of this Government’s work to protect communities and improve outcomes. The draft budget for 2027-28 will support programme for government priorities on climate and nature, including the Net Zero Wales plan, alongside wider Government measures to help Wales adapt to a changing climate.

Anthony Slaughter (Green, Caerdydd Penarth)

Diolch. I'm calling on the Welsh Government to create a new extreme weather resilience fund to invest in nature-based interventions to help mitigate the risks from extreme weather. Floods, droughts and wildfires are increasingly prevalent due to climate change, and nature-based solutions are some of the best available defences to protect our communities. If the climate emergency is a genuinely cross-government priority, funding needs to sit in every departmental budget to ensure that no area slips through the cracks.

Evidence from WWF Cymru and others suggests that for relatively small amounts of money within each portfolio, we could see significant cross-cutting benefits provided that all Welsh Ministers are prepared to show leadership. Can the Minister confirm the amount of money in this year's budget for climate resilience, and will you commit to reviewing existing departmental budgets to find opportunities for nature-based solutions to be ready for the next extreme weather event? Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Well, your question highlights probably the very real concerns that we all as elected Members in the Senedd have as to how we face the extreme weather challenges that will face us this winter as have faced us in the summer past. You know that this Government takes its response and its planning for future events of this nature seriously, and the First Minister has convened a summit on climate resilience to happen next week, I think, to bring stakeholders together to continue the discussion on how we prepare and make ourselves more resilient for extreme weather scenarios, because happen they will.

The issue around how we budget for that, in my initial answer I told you of how we are looking to embed climate change mitigation measures across our budget. You've asked for a specific identification of an extreme weather resilience fund

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

of an extreme weather resilience fund, and that, I think, if I've understood you correctly, across and in each budget allocation and portfolio, is something that I will certainly think further on and discuss with you and with others in this Chamber. These are ever-changing but very present issues that we need to address as a Government, but also as a Senedd, in how we plan our budgets into the future and how we plan our work.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Item 3 is topical questions. No topical questions have been accepted.

4. 90-second Statements

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Therefore, we'll move on immediately to the 90-second statements. Shwmae, Rebeca Phillips.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you very much. Shwmae. Tomorrow is Diwrnod Shwmae Su'mae, a day to start every conversation in Welsh, regardless of your proficiency level. It's wonderful to see so many of you in the Chamber wearing the badges and stickers. The first Diwrnod Shwmae Su'mae was celebrated back in 2013, and Mentrau Iaith Cymru now co-ordinates the campaign. I would like to thank the mentrau iaith for their ongoing work in promoting the Welsh language across Wales.

The aim of the event is to show that Welsh belongs to everyone and to encourage people to start conversations in Welsh, which will lead to greater use of the language throughout the year. Celebrating the diverse range of people who use Welsh is the main theme of this year's event, and there will be events arranged across our communities with opportunities for socialising in Welsh. So, tomorrow, whether you're in the Senedd, in the shop, at school, or even speaking to the King, do make a point of starting every conversation with 'shwmae' and encourage others to do the same.

Marc Jones (Plaid Cymru, Fflint Wrecsam)

There aren't many tougher games than rugby league, but imagine trying to play it in a wheelchair. That's what the Cymru wheelchair rugby league squad is going to be doing later this month as it heads out to Australia to compete in the World Cup. As you can imagine, they've had to overcome many obstacles to get this far. I went to support them during their last practice session held in my constituency earlier this year, and they'd just been told their shirt sponsor had pulled out, leaving them £10,000 short of vital funding to get there.

But these men and women, because it's a mixed squad, like a challenge, they embrace it, and they didn't flinch when it came to raising this £10,000. They set about raising it via a crowdfunder to put Cymru on their shirts rather than a sponsor. I kind of like that, so I thought I'd support it as well. I'm delighted to inform this Senedd that they hit their target last week, they hit their £10,000, and everyone gets to go on the trip of a lifetime. It's a measure of their determination to succeed regardless of the challenges life throws at them. And just to make it extra spicy, their first game in the World Cup is against England. So, I'm sure you'll join me in wishing them all the very best in that game. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

This week marks Baby Loss Awareness Week, a time to remember the babies lost too soon and to recognise the deep impact that baby loss during pregnancy, during childbirth or afterwards can have on families.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Baby Loss Awareness Week is an opportunity to bring us together and to ensure that anyone affected by pregnancy and baby loss knows that they are not alone.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Some of us in this Chamber, our families, friends, colleagues and constituents will have been touched in some way by pregnancy loss or baby loss.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Baby Loss Awareness Week is an opportunity not only to remember babies who have died too soon, but also to break the silence, increase understanding and ensure that no-one feels they have to face their grief alone. Families must also be at the heart of baby loss investigations and efforts to provide answers.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Although every story is different, they have one thing in common: no-one should feel that they have to face this grief alone. This is why the work of charities like Sands Cymru and Tommy's, alongside health professionals like bereavement midwives and support groups across Wales, are so valuable to families.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As we approach

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As we approach the Wave of Light tomorrow, when people will light a candle in memory of babies we have lost, let us remember every baby and offer our support and compassion to all those living with loss. Diolch yn fawr.

Beca Brown (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Yesterday, the town of Porthmadog in my constituency marked the centenary of the death of one of its best-known sons, with a series of commemorative events. The name Eliseus Williams might not mean much to some, but I’m sure you will recognise his bardic name, namely Eifion Wyn.

Eifion Wyn was born at 28 New Street, Porthmadog, and although he spent time as a teacher at Snowdon Street school in the town, he is best known as one of the most popular poets of his time. He wrote in the wake of the 'New Poets', 'Y Beirdd Newydd', a school of Welsh poets active in the final decades of the nineteenth century who emphasised that poetry should be lofty, serious, philosophical, and profound. Looking back, many consider the work of those poets to be obscure and abstruse. But Eifion Wyn was a poet of the people. It was important to him that his poetry was understandable and accessible, and that’s why he was such a popular poet. To quote an expert in the field, his poetry appealed to the people.

His legacy endures today, of course, not only in the name of the local primary school, but in his words. One of the most famous Welsh hymns, ‘Efengyl Tangnefedd’—'Gospel of peace'—written by Eifion Wyn, is a call for international peace—a subject that is painfully relevant today. Thanks to the event organizers for all of their work.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you. And finally, Safa Elhassan.

Safa Elhassan (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Diolch. October is Black History Month. Remember the struggle, recognise the contribution and celebrate the achievement.

This Black History Month, we honour those who have helped build Wales, yet whose stories remain untold. I thank Race Council Cymru, Race Equality First, Ethnic Youth Support Team, Show Racism the Red Card, Black Lives Matter, Black History Cymru 365 and campaigners, and their theme this year is 'Proud to be Me'. I honour the Windrush generation too. I particularly recognise Professor Uzo Iwobi, founder of Race Council Cymru, Momena Ali, founder of EYST, and Shirley Au-Yeung of the Chinese in Wales Association. Their work in Swansea and beyond has opened doors for others.

To the black workers in the NHS, schools, public services, factories and the voluntary and third sectors, thank you. To the taxi drivers, takeaway owners, and corner shopkeepers, thank you. Your contribution to our economy and communities is beyond measure. And I am proud of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. Its ambition must live in action and not simply words. And I remember the late Mohammad Asghar, our first ethnic minority Assembly Member, elected for Plaid Cymru, and his service to this institution. And Betty Campbell, Wales's first black headteacher, who helped children dream beyond the barriers before them.

Black history is Welsh history. Black achievement is Welsh achievement. And with pride in our past, let us build change that will last. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you very much, everyone.

5. Welsh Labour Debate: Palliative and end-of-life care

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The Welsh Labour debate now on palliative and end-of-life care. I call on Ken Skates to move the motion.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

Diolch, Lywydd. I move the motion in the name of Lynne Neagle, and I am pleased to open today's debate on behalf of Welsh Labour. Our intention for today's debate is to reach consensus on an issue that is so important to so many families across Wales. Whatever the political differences across this Chamber, we all want the best possible quality of life for children and adults with terminal illness. That's why Welsh Labour has tabled this motion: to champion the dedication and commitment of NHS and hospice workers who deliver dignity every day; to put on record our appreciation for the compassionate care they provide and the difference they make to people's lives; to shine a light on the significant financial difficulties faced by hospices and the wider need for a sustainable solution to the funding of palliative and end-of-life care across Wales.

I'm pleased that other parties have chosen not to amend our motion today. The Senedd, passing this motion unanimously, would send a powerful message to our brilliant NHS staff

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

to our brilliant NHS staff and hospice workers, and it would challenge Ministers constructively to engage with this issue and to deliver on the commitment set out in the programme for government to address key challenges facing the sector.

Llywydd, last week, I visited Tŷ Gobaith hospice just outside Conwy, and I heard first-hand about those challenges. Tŷ Gobaith provides high-quality, locally sensitive palliative and end-of-life care for children and young people. It's one of only two hospices providing specialist care for children in Wales, the other being Tŷ Hafan in Penarth. The staff at both do an incredible job. They help families create precious memories, they give children experiences and moments to cherish, and they allow parents the time and the space to enjoy being together as a family.

Behind those precious moment is specialist nursing and clinical care, support for children with complex life-limiting and life-threatening conditions and vital respite care for parents. Children's hospices support the whole family, often over many years, as well as providing care at the end of life and through bereavement. Right across Wales, dedicated hospice and NHS staff provide that personalised care every day. They manage people's pain, provide comfort and dignity, and support families through some of the most difficult times in their lives.

But alongside the exceptional care that I saw at Tŷ Gobaith, I also heard about the financial pressures they face, which I know are faced by hospices across Wales. Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru say that Wales's 15 charitable hospices care for over 20,000 children and adults affected by terminal illness. Hospice staff in Wales make around 77,000 visits to people in their own homes every year, helping people to remain in familiar surroundings and taking pressure off local hospitals. But the financial challenges are becoming increasingly difficult to manage across the sector.

Every hospice in Wales is forecasting a deficit budget for this financial year, forcing many to make difficult choices about their future, whether that's delaying recruitment, being unable to introduce new services, or even reducing services. On top of these pressures, Marie Curie estimates that the number of people in Wales needing palliative care will rise by 21 per cent by 2050, and their research also suggests that almost one in three adults in Wales have unmet palliative care needs, meaning around 10,000 people whose symptoms are not being managed and who lack the support they need. That's an increase of over 7,000 people needing care every year alongside significant unmet demand.

In Government, Welsh Labour recognised these concerns, increasing annual hospice funding and providing extra cost-of-living support to help protect vital services. We also delivered on our commitment to review hospice funding, which began with the development of new commissioning frameworks in partnership with the NHS and hospice sector.

But as financial pressures intensify and demand still rises, there is a need for greater certainty and stability to protect services and help drive improvements. As Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru have argued, hospice funding needs to be stabilised in the short term and put on a sustainable footing in the long term. We need to consider how we can work towards meeting 30 per cent of agreed care costs in the hospice sector during this Senedd term.

In addition to a plan to stabilise the wider sector, there is a need to expand the offer for children and their families, with earlier access to support, better co-ordination between services and dependable respite and bereavement care wherever people live. And we need to ensure that our NHS and hospices have the workforce they need to meet growing demand, with the right staff in the right place.

We need to build on the Government's manifesto commitment to develop a new sustainable funding model, and to this end, Labour offers to work with the Government to address the key challenges facing palliative and end-of-life care as per the programme of government. That is what our motion is calling for. It's asking Ministers constructively to come forward with a long-term plan that stabilises and secures high-quality services and to ensure that our NHS and hospices have the skilled workforce they need to meet growing demand for palliative and end-of-life care.

These challenges require action now as well as a clear plan for the future. Llywydd, we all recognise the extraordinary contribution that dedicated NHS and hospice staff make every day, delivering dignified and compassionate care to children and adults with terminal illness. We owe it to those staff and to the tens of thousands of families who depend on

Benjamin McKenna (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Now, in 2025-26, the Welsh Government provided £3 million and committed to finding a sustainable funding solution, but Hospice UK estimate that that is just 10 per cent of the £30 million that will be required over this Senedd term just to safeguard existing services.

As Ken Skates mentioned, Marie Curie have already suggested that the current system is failing people, that nearly a third of people in Wales have unmet palliative care needs. And what's worse is that the demand is expected to rise by more than 25 per cent over the next 25 years. That's a significant increase in demand for a system that is already having to scale back its services due to cost pressures. And while I'm glad that Labour did bring forward this debate today, the fact is that they had years in power in which they could have dealt with the issues that are currently facing hospice care in Wales. And now that Plaid Cymru are in charge, they must explain how they're going to support the sector, as patients cannot be cared for by an announcement or framework.

Essential end-of-life care must be protected, and the current model is clearly unsustainable. Community hospice and palliative care services help people to reduce avoidable hospital admissions and they relieve pressure from elsewhere in our healthcare system. At Reform, we will support measures that place our hospices on a sustainable footing, strengthen community and out-of-hours capacity, and develop the workforce that is necessary to meet growing demands. Hence, we will be supporting this motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, Casnewydd Islwyn)

I'd like to thank the Welsh Labour Party for bringing forward this important debate this afternoon. My Welsh Conservative colleagues and I are pleased to be supporting this motion. Palliative and end-of-life care are incredibly important elements of our healthcare system, and we must do all that we can to ensure they are supported and protected for the future. It is not just about supporting people when they are coming towards the end of their lives. Palliative care is about supporting patients throughout, improving their quality of life, and managing their pain. It is about treating people and their loved ones with dignity, compassion and respect at what is an incredibly emotional and difficult time. Our hospices play a vital role in delivering the care, whether that be on site or indeed within people's homes, and I want to take a moment to thank the staff that are working in this sector. That includes the doctors, the nurses, the carers, the specialists, the volunteers, the hospice staff, the carers, and everyone else in between. They are the ones who are there day in, day out, supporting people through unimaginably upsetting times, bringing comfort, warmth, and support. Their work is extraordinary, and it cannot indeed be an easy job.

I made a really sobering visit to St David's hospice in Newport not too long ago, and I saw firsthand the compassion and dedication that the staff put into their roles. The services and support offered at the hospices was extensive, yet not a single penny is charged for the care that they provide. Despite that, it costs £15,000 every single day to provide that care, and while some funding is indeed provided from the Welsh Government and the NHS, it relies heavily on money raised through fundraising and charity shops. That should not be the case. Too many hospices are facing significant pressures and are in a similar boat when it comes to finance. Fundraising is often a great example of community spirit, bringing people together for a worthy cause, but it should not have to be relied on as much for such a service. It should complement public funding, not have to replace it. According to Hospices UK, around 70 per cent of the care costs of delivering hospice care are funded by charitable donations, while the remaining 30 per cent are provided by the Welsh Government and local health boards. That's staggering and, quite frankly, is not sustainable long term.

Around 20,000 adults and children every year are supported by Welsh hospices, and our ageing population makes the need for urgent improvements even more pressing. Presiding Officer, demand for hospice and palliative care continues to rise, but the cost pressures facing the sector are having a major impact. A survey carried out by Hospice UK revealed that more than 90 per cent of hospices in Wales are likely to cut certain services within the next 12 to 24 months simply due to costs. Not only that, but near one in two hospices already cut services last year, and I fear that if things do not improve, some hospices will be forced to close for good. We simply cannot allow that to happen.

A survey of 14 voluntary hospices in Wales discovered that 30 per cent are already reducing beds or cutting services, and that more than 70 per cent with inpatient units expect at least one bed to close either temporarily or permanently. Not only that, but three quarters fear that they will be forced to withdraw support normally provided by hospitals and care homes. These are, quite frankly, shocking statistics. But let me share an even more shocking and utterly distressing fact with you all. One in four people do not get the end-of-life care and support that they need, with someone dying without care and support every five minutes.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

such as family, carers and friends, need 24-hour access to care, support and reassurance; ensure that people living with terminal illnesses are discharged from hospital swiftly when they are deemed able to return home; appropriate support must be in place at the point of discharge, including support to die in their preferred place.

This will, as well as benefiting terminally ill patients, free up beds in hospital and end the continual movement of those terminally ill into and out of hospital. We cannot allow a postcode lottery for end-of-life care. Wherever you live in Wales, you need the same level of provision. With palliative care, there is a major role carried out by unpaid carers. The needs of unpaid carers have to be assessed and reviewed so that their needs can be met and the support they need can be provided.

The difference that high-quality palliative care and end-of-life care can make for people living with a terminal illness and those close to them cannot be understated. Too many in Wales cannot access the care they need. What we need is for health boards and trusts to periodically assess palliative and end-of-life care for their local population, then use that to inform service planning and delivery. These assessments can be made publicly available. Health boards must publish a local delivery plan for palliative care. These must set out how they will meet the population need and achieve the ambitions set out in the Welsh Government quality statement. All regional partnership boards must include palliative and end-of-life care leads to provide expert advice and guidance on meeting the needs of people with terminal illness and those close to them.

Can I just raise three matters from personal experience? A patient with cancer of the oesophagus who could not swallow was going to literally be left to starve to death until I intervened and they had six months of a rewarding life by being PEG fed; a terminally ill patient without palliative care who just went in and out of hospital with no palliative-care support; a terminally ill patient left in a nursing home with no palliative support. All this needs funding. There is a need to establish a sustainable funding solution to establish a sustainable palliative care and end-of-life care system that can meet the growing needs for care. There doesn't need to be a magic money tree, use unallocated resources. Do what matters, instead of things such as a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales. Palliative care and end-of-life care matter to me, do they matter to the Welsh Government?

Becca Martin (Plaid Cymru, Clwyd)

Hospices provide the medical facilities needed to meet complex care needs, but they also provide comfort in a way hospitals just can't. A warm and personal welcome, a peaceful homely feel, rather than cold, white, clinical walls, frightening noises, shared walls and the hustle and bustle of busy spaces.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited St Kentigern Hospice in St Asaph where I had an unexpected conversation with a resident named Mel. Mel was sitting outside enjoying his morning coffee. It was an ordinary, everyday moment, yet in many ways it represented everything that hospice care should be about: enabling people to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, retain their independence and experience moments of normality, even when facing the most difficult of circumstances. Mel spoke passionately about the compassion and care shown to him by the hospice staff and volunteers. He described how the people supporting him took time to understand his needs and tailor their care accordingly. This is what makes hospice care so special. It recognises that every patient is an individual with their own needs, wishes, fears and hopes. When a patient enters, they are defined by who they are and not what condition or illness they have. Every member of staff and every volunteer I encountered at St Kentigern's demonstrated a genuine commitment to providing comfort, compassion and dignity. It was clear that, to them, this wasn't a job, it was a vocation. Sadly, Mel passed away soon after our meeting, but I'm grateful to be able to say that his death was peaceful and dignified and that he was surrounded by love. The support provided by the hospice to Mel and his family played an important part in making that possible.

Between 2024 and 2025, hospices in Wales provided direct support to 4,900 family members, friends and carers. Caring for a loved one can be physically exhausting, emotionally draining, and financially challenging. Unpaid carers give so much of themselves, often with little opportunity to rest and recover. Hospices can provide those carers with a much-needed break, helping them to recharge and continue in their caring role. Hospices also often continue to provide support long after a loved one has died. Bereavement services, counselling and practical guidance help families navigate the difficult journey that follows the loss of someone they love. So, when we talk of hospices and palliative care, we must look beyond the immediate care provided to patients. We must recognise the support given to families, unpaid carers, communities and the wider NHS. Hospices are precious institutions, but they cannot continue to deliver these services through goodwill and dedication alone. They need

Shav Taj (Labour, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

struggling to understand a complicated system or worrying about whether the help that they need will be there. Whatever our differences across this Chamber, I hope that we can agree on one fundamental principle: everyone in Wales deserves dignity, they deserve compassion, and they deserve respect at the end of life. All the people, of course, who provide that care, also deserve our support too. Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Rock (Green, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Last night—or last week, rather—I was delighted to visit City Hospice in my constituency. They do fantastic work supporting people with terminal illnesses and their families. They provide care to people within their own homes, helping to keep them connected with their local communities and their support networks for as long as possible, but they also have an amazing drop-in centre in Whitchurch with beautiful gardens and space for people to take part in meaningful activities, allowing people to keep on living well right to the end of their lives.

They told me about a man they supported who was understandably feeling very low and said that one of the things he was really missing was the opportunity to chat about football, so they created a sports bar where people could drink alcohol-free beer, watch football matches and talk about them, often with a sporting hero as a special guest. I confess that's not something that appeals to me at all personally, but the sports bar has now become one of their most popular activities. This is the real difference that hospices make in people's lives, but this vital work is at risk without sustainable funding and strong collaborative working with local health boards.

The previous Government took steps towards developing a hospice commissioning framework to ensure consistent good practice across Wales. However, I understand there are still significant variations across different areas. The Welsh hospice sector needs an additional £5.5 million of funding this year and an additional £8.2 million of funding in each subsequent year of the Senedd term. This works out at around, as people have said, £30 million for the whole of this Senedd term, which is not a great deal amount of money considering the hugely beneficial impacts for our communities.

On average, Welsh hospices get only around a third of their income from statutory sources and must fundraise for the rest from private donors, which is extremely difficult in the context of the cost-of-living crisis. Any additional financial help for hospices would of course be welcomed, but long-term certainty in both the contracts and grant funding so that staff and service users can be confident their vital services will be there whenever they are needed. Predictable, multi-year recurring funding allows hospices to better plan ahead and supports their highly skilled staff with a huge number of different medical specialisms embedded within their own local communities.

I'm glad that we all agree that the incredible work of our hospices and palliative care workers is not just worth celebrating in this debate this afternoon, but also worthy of fair and sustainable funding in recognition of their life-affirming work. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. We have another couple of speakers. This debate has got a lot of speakers down for it. I may run slightly over, if you will allow me, but if I could ask the next couple of speakers just to be mindful that we will be running over. Rebeca Phillips.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their personal stories today. How we care for people in the final chapters of their lives is the ultimate measure of our compassion, our values and our society. Palliative and end-of-life care is not a secondary branch of medicine—it is a fundamental pillar in a truly integrated health and social care system. In Neath Port Talbot, Marie Curie estimates that 1,550 people would have benefited from palliative and end-of-life care in 2023. In 10 years, they estimate that demand for palliative care in Neath Port Talbot will increase to 1,705 people per year, and what we must remember is that behind every figure, there is a person, there is a family.

Early identification of needs through health boards is vital to inform planning and delivery of services. I was pleased to see in the Plaid Cymru manifesto commitments to ensure that every regional partnership board includes a palliative and end-of-life care need, because dignity in death should never depend on your postcode.

And we turn to the staff of our hospices across Wales. The support these individuals