Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 6 October 2026

305 contributions from 59 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Prynhawn da. Good afternoon, everybody.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We will move immediately to item 1, questions to the First Minister. The first question is from Andrew Griffin.

Andrew Griffin (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

1. What assessment has the First Minister made of the provision of public services in rural Wales? OQ64619

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Good afternoon to you all.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

We are focused on making services better in every part of Wales. We recognise that delivering effective public services in rural Wales requires responding to the particular challenges that rural communities face. Our proposal for a statutory rural-proofing duty will improve how the needs of rural communities are accounted for in how services are designed and in how they're delivered.

Andrew Griffin (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Thank you, First Minister. During the election campaign, I heard the same concern right across the Gwynedd Maldwyn constituency that rural mid Wales is too often overlooked. We're seeing schools close, continuing problems on the Cambrian line, in-patient beds closed at Tywyn, and potentially fewer community hospital beds provided in Powys. This winter we are also facing reductions in routine gritting. Now, I know the response: 'Schools and roads are matters for councils, health services for health boards'. But the Welsh Government sets policy, provides much of the funding and can intervene. Indeed, you've just provided Powys Teaching Health Board with an additional £3.5 million to tackle waiting lists. So, who in your Government is responsible for looking at the cumulative effect of all these decisions on rural communities, and what are you going to do about it?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As I said, this is something that this Government has proposed specific action to address. We want to be a Government for all of Wales. I agree that there are times where it has felt as if the specific needs of rural areas, rurality itself, hasn't been taken into account when decisions are being made. That is precisely what the rural-proofing mechanism is about. We are proposing to legislate on rural-proofing to make sure that it is not up to the Government of the day whether or not they take into account the impact of decisions on rural areas, but that that is put on a statutory basis. I think that is something that will be welcomed in rural parts of Wales.

Matthew Jones (Plaid Cymru, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. Access to essential services is a major concern for many of my constituents in Monmouthshire, and the statistics back that up. Some of the most pressing issues found in the Welsh index of multiple deprivation statistics include access to pharmacies, GPs, local shops and childcare. These services are often twice as hard to reach in rural areas as the national average. The challenges are hard to tackle, but there are communities working to do this. What is the Welsh Government doing to address these wide-ranging problems in rural areas like Monmouthshire?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

What the Member does, again, is emphasise a number of those issues on which there are particular questions that relate more to rural areas than to urban areas. We could point to the price of fuel now, which is problematic for everybody in Wales. The UK Government has taken the decision to have a rural relief system in place for some parts of the UK, but not for Wales. That's something that I would like to see the UK Government address. What our proposal, through the rural-proofing legislation route, will do for Wales is make sure that all those questions of rurality, as I say, are considered when it comes to decisions that the Welsh Government makes, because, whoever they are in whatever part of Wales, the electors who sent all of us here should feel that we are there for them.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

You touched on the price of fuel, First Minister, and your desire to see the rural-proofing relief scheme activated again. Has your Government put any pressure on the UK Government to bring this forward in the budget that is going to come at the end of October? If you have, can you release that letter or whatever correspondence you've put in to support that? The Treasury model shows that anything between 20 per cent and 60 per cent is the sparsity premium that is put on the delivery of rural services, and help with the price of fuel will go a long way to relieving that pressure.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member will know that it has been a long-standing policy of the party that I lead to pursue that kind of rural relief. Our pressure on the UK Government has tended to, for obvious reasons, target energy prices and household fuel in particular, and calling for measures around off-grid as one of those elements that affect those living in more rural areas most. But there's no question now, as the intensity of the pressures of fuel for road users becomes more serious, that we will pursue that indeed with the UK Government.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Prynhawn da, Brif Weinidog. Just to come back to Powys and to health services, you'll know that the Powys Teaching Health Board has launched a proposal and a consultation on the future of health services across Powys. These proposals include cuts to hospital beds, which would leave communities like Ystradgynlais with a 23-mile journey to receive in-patient care. In a large rural county with poor public transport, as you will know, that matters enormously to patients, families and carers. Nine thousand, seven hundred people have signed our petition opposing these plans, yet their voices are being brushed aside, and they are repeatedly told by your Government, and the health board, to simply wait for the consultation to finish. But the options on the table mean that significant reductions in in-patient care are already baked in and that that consultation only presents one option. We've been told that your Government can't do anything, but we know that the Welsh Government has mechanisms to intervene when it needs to, for example, with the fire and rescue services.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

A question, please, Jane.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

So, what will your Government do in order to listen to the voices of people in a rural area like Powys and make sure that these proposals are stopped? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'm certainly hearing the concerns, and the argument that has been put forward by the Member today amplifies concerns that have been raised elsewhere. This is a decision for the health board, of course, and consultation has begun on proposed options for its clinical services plan. Evidence can be seen, views can be shared, experiences and concerns shared, alternative ideas put forward too. The health board has made no decisions on those clinical plans, but the Welsh Government—let me put it as clearly as I can—expects the health board to make evidence-based decisions, underpin those decisions on robust options appraisals and impact assessments, to ensure that the future of services are sustainable, fit for purpose and safe for the local population. But, other than that, given that this is an ongoing process led by the health board, it would be inappropriate for me to comment more than that.

David Mills (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

2. Will the First Minister outline how the Welsh Government’s international offices deliver value for money for Welsh taxpayers? OQ64621

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I have always vowed, as an internationalist, that my Government will be internationalist in its outlook and always seek opportunities to sell Wales to the world. Through our overseas network, we have opportunities to support exports, to attract inward investment, but also to strengthen international partnerships and to promote Wales. And like all aspects of Government, we will want, as a new Government, to make sure that our operations in this area are effective and efficient.

David Mills (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

International relations are not the remit of the Welsh Government. Coming from the world of farming and business before entering the Senedd, when I came here I was shocked at the waste—it really shocked me. And nothing symbolises that waste more than the 20 mini embassies that we've got. These are on four continents, costing £5 million a year to run, and they're part of a larger package of £58 million, which is spent on all sorts of things. Is this indulgence worth it when public finances are so tight? So, does the First Minister genuinely believe that every one of those overseas offices is delivering value for money? And would he not agree with me that the money would be better spent on the NHS, schools and other failing vital public services that are actually within the Senedd's devolved responsibilities?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Spending money on 'all sorts of things' is quite an argument to put forward.

I'll tell you what the Welsh Government is absolutely meant to do by law: it is to seek the best for Wales. Our international operations are about seeking trade deals for Wales, attracting inward investment to Wales, selling agriculture produce to the world, building the kind of soft diplomacy that can bring results to Wales. Now, I know that the Member is isolationist in the way that he sees the world. I am not; I am somebody who will always seek to promote Wales's place in the world for the benefit of all the people who live in Wales.

Sarah Rees (Plaid Cymru, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Prif Weinidog, as you've outlined, discussions about our international offices too often reduce them to a line in a budget, as if a desk abroad is simply a cost to be defended. But, as you said, an office is not just a desk, it's a doorway. The relationships we build with Governments and organisations overseas translate into direct benefits for the Welsh economy: trade routes opened, investment attracted, markets found for Welsh businesses, which no amount of domestic marketing can replicate. I don't know if that was an experience of the business owner, of the Member over there.

So, in an increasingly interconnected world, I believe that we must think global and act local, learning not only from our neighbours in Scotland and Ireland, but from all across the world. That's why programmes such as Taith's international learning exchanges are so important in forging those connections. So, may I ask if you agree with me, First Minister, that Welsh Government international offices should be measured not only in monetary value, but in the relationships they build—relationships that deliver real economic benefits for the people of Wales?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you for the question. The groans from the Reform benches when the Member mentioned Wales having a doorway to the world I think speaks volumes about a party that wants to close all opportunities for Wales. This Government, as I say, will be international in its outlook, international in the kind of ambition that we have in our goals. Wales can't just be promoted from behind a desk in Cardiff or by looking inwards. Our international offices shouldn't be judged either solely by trade and investment figures, though they are important. They also build trust, they deepen relationships, and they deliver results in soft power and in cultural diplomacy. Through our engagement across Europe and beyond—again, something that the Reform benches want to close down—Wales is sharing expertise on language, where we are global leaders in many ways, on sustainability, on future generations, while learning from others and delivering benefits for the people of Wales in doing so.

Shav Taj (Labour, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

First Minister, shouldn't value for money, as you say, be measured not just by—and the cost; all of that has been discussed—investment, jobs and opportunities, but also what communities then locally get back as well? You've mentioned a range of different things, but how do we then ensure that those economic benefits are genuinely felt across all of our communities in Wales?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I agree with that outlook—that our international links can and must bring real benefits to the people of Wales. I enjoyed my participation with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association over 10 years as chair. I assume that Reform want us to pull out of the work of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, as that's a waste of time looking out to the world. But what we were doing always was trying to find that common ground with others that can give us tools to do the job to improve the lot of people in Wales. That's what we're all about. It all has to come back to improving outcomes. Whilst I have a great belief in what we can do well here in Wales, I absolutely believe that, out there in the world, there's a host of lessons, a host of experiences that can come to us from different cultures that we can benefit from. That's something that I will always strive to work across party boundaries here in the Senedd on.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

First Minister, the irony of you calling a Member of the Senedd an isolationist when you are desperate to break up the United Kingdom and isolate Wales from this United Kingdom, when you've signed a pact with the SNP and Sinn Féin to isolate Wales from the rest of the United Kingdom—the irony of that, First Minister. The reality on the ground, First Minister, is that there are people being treated in corridors in our hospitals, our roads are creaking, our businesses are being taxed to the hilt. These aren't just slogans, First Minister. I met with residents in Bretton and Broughton last week, who were flooded in 2021, flooded in 2023 and they were flooded in 2025. How can you look them in the eye, First Minister, and tell them money's being better spent in international offices in places like China rather than on flood defences in places like Bretton and Broughton?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think your leader had his head in his hands, trying to put distance between himself and Reform—and there we are: banging the tables on the Reform benches at your isolationist arguments for Wales.

The Member knows full well that Government, to use the kind of detail that we heard earlier, does many, many things. In reaching out to the world for trade deals, for lessons, for the sharing of experiences, we are adding to that depth of knowledge that we have and the income that we have in order to improve the lives of the people of Wales. We do that alongside improving the health service, improving education standards, improving job prospects in all parts of Wales, rolling out the most generous childcare offer anywhere in the UK and also dealing with those challenges of climate change, which my party is making a clear priority.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I now call on the party leaders to question the First Minister. First, the leader of Reform UK, Helen Jenner.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Diolch, Lywydd. Before I begin, may I congratulate Welshman Elfyn Evans on becoming world rally champion after a nail-biting finale in Sardinia on Sunday? What a proud moment for Wales and what a wonderful sight to see y ddraig goch flying on the world stage.

First Minister, I want to pay tribute to our Jewish community in Wales and across the United Kingdom, particularly in light of the 7 October anniversary tomorrow. Jewish people do not feel safe in this country and, for that, the establishment should feel deeply ashamed. There is a sickening antisemitism problem among left-wing parties. We've seen it in Labour, we've seen it in Plaid, and just last weekend, the Green Party of England and Wales formally adopted a policy saying Zionism is racism. The Greens officially do not want the state of Israel to exist, and Plaid Cymru has shamefully stood shoulder to shoulder with the Greens and their anti-Israel rhetoric. First Minister, during the election campaign, you claimed you had the most in common with the Greens, but in light of them formally adopting this divisive direction, I would ask: do you believe that supporting the existence of a Jewish state is in itself racist—'yes' or 'no'?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I have always advocated the two-state solution, and I think the decision taken at the Greens conference was ill judged. I do not agree with that motion.

I have to, though, refer to the initial comments that the Member made about Elfyn Evans. I spoke with Elfyn yesterday and congratulated him on his remarkable win and becoming the first Welsh world rally champion after coming so close on five previous occasions. And I'm sure the Member doesn't miss the irony in the way that she put the question in congratulating him for flying the Welsh flag on a world stage, when previously this afternoon we had been asked to take down that Welsh flag and just look inwards. That is Reform's view of Wales.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

So, that was what you chose to focus on in your response—

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

No. I answered your question.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Rather than condemning—. That was what you went for.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I answered your question. Llywydd, I answered the question.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The prelude, not the actual question. First Minister, it's quite clear that, once again, your party is on the wrong side of history in failing to stand up for our vulnerable Jewish community.

Another example of Plaid being on the wrong side of history is Brexit. Wales voted decisively to leave the European Union, with almost twice as many people in Wales voting for Brexit than for Plaid Cymru in May. First Minister, at your conference last weekend, your party was making the case for rejoining the EU. Not only do you want to divide families by banging on about independence, you're now trying to reopen the Brexit debate. The so-called Party of Wales is clearly more keen on giving up Welsh sovereignty to Brussels than respecting the will of the people of Wales, who voted to leave the European Union.

Take farming. Brexit gave the Senedd the power to design and implement farming policy in Wales for Wales. First Minister, if you don't trust yourself with the powers you have, rather than seek to hand them over to Brussels, why don't you hand them over to us? Because we're ready to take the reins.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think it's important to put it on the record so that the leader of Reform can read it afterwards, as she wasn't listening to me previously, that I directly addressed her question on the vote in the Green Party conference, and I said that I had a very, very different view, and that I believe in a two-state solution and I stand shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish communities in Wales and make a stand against antisemitism as I do Islamophobia.

She's on a roll. A second ago, she was saying that it was okay for a sportsman to wave the Welsh flag, but not for the rest of us to—or for Welsh Government to do so. And now she has the boldness—and I've suggested she's bold before—to suggest that, 10 years on from Brexit, the evidence shows that it was the right thing to do. Now, I'm not one to question the decision made by people in that specific referendum 10 years ago, but I am very, very clear in my mind that the damage that has been caused is very, very clear to see. She told me, 'Take farming'. Well, Brexit took too much out of farming. It took too much out of business. It is because of the losses that businesses face, the billions of pounds that have been lost to the Welsh economy, that I say that Wales's place is at the heart of Europe. As an absolute minimum, we should be members of the common market, we should be members of the customs union. That is in the interest of the people of Wales. The Reform leader, we know, takes a different viewpoint: she is isolationist in many, many ways. I will stand up for the people of Wales, as I pledged I would in the recent election.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

First Minister, it's clear to anybody with an ounce of common sense that the reason anybody can say anything negative about the post-Brexit era is because the people who were in charge of seeing it through didn't make the most of the opportunities they were given. And I would like to quote. [Interruption.] I would like to quote. He talks about our relationship with Europe—the greatest Briton that ever lived, Winston Churchill, once said:

'We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked, not combined. We are interested and associated, not absorbed.'

First Minister, at your conference you spoke about a new deal for Wales. Well, the public aren't daft. What we're actually getting is a raw deal. You're giving Wales a raw deal by failing to grow our economy. Unemployment is up, and not a week goes by without a negative story of businesses in Wales shutting up shop and cutting jobs. And the education sector is in such a dire state that teaching unions are threatening industrial action against this Government. What have you done to turn the dire situation around? Nothing. Instead of making substantive cuts to business taxes and energy costs by scrapping net stupid zero, you're marching for separatism in Aberystwyth. Your programme for government was thin and without measurable targets. When are you going to ditch the dodgy ideology and start putting people first? Because so far, all you've done is make things worse.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'm sure I just heard the leader of Reform accusing me of having dodgy ideology when she literally used the words 'net stupid zero'. Now, that is climate change ideological madness wrapped up in the words of the leader of Reform here in the Senedd. There's too much to unpack in that question for me to address all issues, but I will say this: she says that Brexit hasn't worked because the leaders, on a UK level, didn't get it right. At least I'm glad that she accepts that Brexit hasn't worked. That is why we need to look again at our relationship with Europe and tightening up that relationship for the interests of businesses in Wales and all our citizens.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Leader of Welsh Labour, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, Robin Hood took from the rich and gave to the poor, but I fear your Government is about to do the opposite. I'm afraid that cuts are being promised, Flying Start has been put on notice and £10 weekly payments for the poorest haven't happened, yet you're pressing ahead with free childcare for millionaires, just like the Tories wish to do. Can you tell us how much people earning more than £100,000 a year will benefit from through your childcare policy?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

So, there are no cuts to Flying Start. We are building greatly on Flying Start in rolling out the most generous childcare offer anywhere in the UK, and we believe in the principle of universalism. I'm surprised that this is the second bite of the cherry from the Labour leader in Wales in undermining those principles of universalism that have given us the NHS, those principles of universalism that previous Labour Governments have celebrated, through free bus passes, through prescriptions. Is the Labour leader in Wales now suggesting that he, if he were in Government, would take away those elements of universalism that have been so well embraced by the people of Wales in recent years?

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

Well, the First Minister knows full well that we would never ever do that, and it's simply a deflection from the truth. Because I can reveal what the cost to the taxpayer would be in giving millionaires and the highest earners free childcare: it would amount to about £15 million per year. For every person earning over £100,000 a year, they would benefit from Plaid Cymru's Government to the tune of £5,650 per child per year. As I say, that amount will total £15 million per year, paid for through cuts elsewhere. It's not fair, it's not progressive, and it's certainly not left wing. You're standing up for millionaires, you're not standing up for Wales. And indeed, you're standing beside the Tories in wanting the same policy. So, who stole this policy from whom? Did you steal it from the Tories, or did Kemi Badenoch steal it from yourself? And why won't you use £15 million a year instead to support those who are facing the toughest of times in the cost-of-living crisis, not the richest?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member knows, of course, that it's not millionaires that we're talking about here through universalism, but it's hard-working families, medium earners, middle earners who the Member says should be excluded from childcare. I just don't believe that. I believe in the principle of universalism that Labour used to believe in. What has Labour become if Labour now are genuinely asking us to engage in a fundamental debate on the question of universalism? We could allow, could we not, millionaires to buy their own health services, and we wouldn't mind, right? Let's have just a health service for those who can't afford it. I don't believe that is the best way forward. I don't believe in having a two-tier health service. I believe in the principles laid down by Aneurin Bevan I think that are as relevant today as they were when he established the NHS. So, whether it's on free school meals, or on free prescriptions, or on bus passes, or on the NHS itself, universalism is a principle that brings us together as a community, as society, and we will pursue this in the interest of the people of Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Can I put on record that the thoughts of my party are with the Jewish community in Wales and around the world as we mark the anniversary of the 7 October attacks this week?

First Minister, Wales is in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. At a time when households are struggling with prices, last week the cost of alcohol in Wales went up, with a massive increase of 30 per cent in minimum alcohol pricing. And that doesn't affect just people who have alcohol problems, it affects everyone, including those people who are responsible drinkers, hitting them in their pockets too. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to the economic impact of the change in minimum alcohol pricing, especially on retailers close to the Welsh border, who are now seeing their customers nipping across into England in order to do their shopping to avoid these extra costs?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I was part of the committee in the Senedd before last that assessed the pros and cons of introducing minimum alcohol pricing. There were others here who were on that committee with me. And what we concluded was that, just as with cigarettes, the impact of pricing can have a positive impact on the choices that people make in relation to their use of alcohol. It's not a ban of alcohol, it's a trigger to make people think. That is the principle that led to the increase now—exactly these arguments that if it's about making sure that alcohol is as cheap as it possibly can be, that is not in the interest of the health of the people of Wales. It really isn't. And I think there has been a greater understanding in recent years, as happened with smoking decades ago, that we can no longer ignore the detrimental impacts of alcohol on health. And this measure is one step where we can try to redress the balance there.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Look, we all know that left-wing Governments make choices that drive people to drink. [Laughter.] But then, pushing the price of booze up isn't, I think, the right thing to do, particularly during a cost-of-living crisis. We've seen fuel prices go up, energy prices have just gone up and now the cost of booze in Wales is up. Now, people who enjoy a responsible tipple across Wales are absolutely furious by this decision. The evidence from the Welsh Government's own evaluation undertaken in January 2025 shows that, actually, this policy isn't working. Those people who are already alcohol dependent and problem drinkers are still alcohol dependent, still have problems with booze, and actually they're now even worse off because they're giving up food, they're not putting the heating on, in order to pay for more expensive alcohol.

So, can I ask you, can I urge you, to look at that evidence? Instead of pushing up shopping bills, instead of punishing responsible drinkers, instead of retailers losing out because of this policy, why don't you scrap this policy altogether and get on instead with investing in support for problem drinkers, including better access to alcohol rehabilitation services in Wales?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The truth of the matter is that, when we discussed this at source, back then in committee, it was about doing both. There was a recognition that this wasn't a measure that would stop alcoholics from obtaining alcohol, because they are addicted to alcohol. That is not what this is about, and I agree that we need to be strengthening support for people who have alcohol abuse problems.

For the Member, though, to point to this decision being about the impact of the cost of living, I would ask him to reflect on the actions of successive Conservative Governments on a UK level, which decided to go down the route of austerity, hitting ordinary people in their pockets every single day in all aspects of their lives, rather than punishing the bankers who had put us in that position at that time. There are many decisions that Governments can take where we consider the impact on the pockets of the people that we represent. Minimum alcohol pricing is about health.

Kiera Marshall (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Penarth)

3. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that its childcare offer is flexible and meets the needs of parents? OQ64647

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Funded childcare must be flexible for families and deliverable for providers. We're working with local authorities and registered providers to expand provision sustainably and move to a simpler system that's easier for parents to navigate. As we introduce our universal childcare offer, we will ensure that it will enable longer and more flexible sessions.

Kiera Marshall (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Penarth)

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. I'd like to give an example of how the current system isn't flexible for parents. One nursery I know of in Cardiff can only provide Flying Start provision for 2.5 hours a day for the children who are eligible, but, meanwhile, the same nursery group in Newport can provide Flying Start in blocks so that parents can return to work part-time and use their Flying Start hours all in a couple of days. Parents in Cardiff aren't offered the same opportunities. Currently, funded childcare provision is too fragmented. It's a postcode lottery between local authorities and even different sides of the street. Too many who need it cannot access it.

Labour are complaining about a universal childcare offer. We've heard it again today—Labour complaining about universal childcare. The party of Aneurin Bevan and universal healthcare is complaining about universalism. They've lost touch with their roots. Meanwhile, Reform in England are closing publicly funded nurseries. So, does the First Minister agree with me that the universality of this childcare offer is key, so that parents can get back to work and not a single child slips through that gap in provision?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

That universality is very, very important and, as we've touched on already today, it is a broader principle that we should value.

On flexibility, as we introduce a radical, an ambitious, new national childcare offer, we're working to create a simpler, more streamlined system that gives parents more flexibility and easier access to funded childcare across Wales. Universal provision, of course, supports every child to get the best start in life, and thousands of low-earning families who've previously been locked out of any childcare or early years support will benefit as a result of our policy. Current guidance allows childcare sessions to be combined. We know this flexibility is interpreted and applied differently, and we are working to, as we roll out the childcare offer, partner with local authorities and others to make sure that that consistency does become the norm across the board.

Cristiana Emsley (Reform UK, Fflint Wrecsam)

Prif Weinidog, last week your Deputy First Minister told me that childcare must be flexible for families and deliverable for providers. Yet, when I asked what this expanded offer will actually cost, she told me that the figures will only become clear in the forthcoming draft budget. But flexibility has a price tag. Longer hours, greater capacity, rural provision and the workforce to deliver it cannot be paid for with aspiration. So, how can your Government promise parents a flexible childcare offer when it still cannot tell them or this Senedd what the fully modelled policy will cost? Surely you cost the flexibility before you promise it, rather than promise it first and work out the bill afterwards. Because however flexible the promise, First Minister, the budget remains stubbornly inflexible. Eventually, the numbers will have to add up. So, please reassure us that Welsh parents will not be left quite as baffled by your childcare maths as your Deputy First Minister apparently was by mine.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Well, I fundamentally disagree with that take from the Member. We've made it clear. In fact, we have put the money in for the first phase, which is the rolling out of the 12.5 hours in every part of Wales within this first financial year. It's £55 million, and that is—. Well, that's happening. The money has gone. It's £55 million. Working towards the end of roll-out in a Government term, you're talking about a significant sum, £300 million to £400 million, depending on uptake and so on. There are lots of different factors. But this was meant to be, and is being, done in a phased way, which is the only way that it can be done. It's not just because of the money; one of the big challenges that we are facing, and dealing with, is workforce. We visited a nursery in Rhyl last week, and there's real excitement about how to bring more young people into the profession, which we will need to do in significant numbers to roll out this childcare offer, which will transform lives.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

First Minister, we've heard from Kiera Marshall very clearly that access to childcare is heavily dependent on where you live; Flying Start is a great example. So, you are declaring—your Government says—that its new offer will be flexible and responsive to parents' needs, which is great, but is that really going to take effect? We talked about rural-proofing earlier. Will rural-proofing enable this to happen in our rural communities? Can we truly see a levelling-up and a universality, as you said, of childcare in those most hard-to-reach areas like I represent?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As you mentioned rural-proofing and Flying Start, I'll maybe bring those two together. Flying Start has done a great job in helping families who are struggling to make ends meet in some parts of Wales. I know of parts in my own constituency, and many others will have their own experiences of families who are outside Flying Start areas, in rural areas who are unable to get that kind of support. What we're doing in building on Flying Start, not cutting it, is making sure that we are expanding this universally to all people, universally to all areas, because we have identified this as something that could be the underpinnings of education, of job opportunities and tackling poverty. We're not setting simple targets for ourselves here. We're stretching ourselves because we think it's important, and rurality is very much a part of the mix.

Llŷr Powell (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

4. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact of professional sport on the Welsh economy? OQ64617

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Professional sport makes a significant contribution to the Welsh economy. It brings visitors into our communities, supports local businesses, creates jobs and showcases Wales to a global audience, at home and abroad. I'll take the opportunity to congratulate Elfyn Evans again on waving the flag in Sardinia on Sunday. But, from the Tour de France Grand Départ to Euro 2028, Wales has shown that it is able to attract world-class sporting events. What we need to do always is make sure that those events leave a lasting legacy for communities across Wales.

Llŷr Powell (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Thank you, First Minister. I agree with you. Sport can have a huge impact on the economy, as we've seen in places like Swansea—when they made the Premier League, tens of millions of pounds put into the economy there—and here in Cardiff, when they were a part of the Premier League. We've seen success with Wrexham now, having an impact on their economy, in Newport, and with other sports as well, like when the Ryder Cup came to Wales, and we've seen it when the wrestling was in Cardiff. But what future plans has the Welsh Government got to encourage more of these large-scale events that can bring better, high-paying jobs during those periods and that can boost our hospitality industry, but not only to current areas that are seeing that—how about if we can attract more of these large-scale events to other parts of Wales yet to be showcased around the world?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I believe in the principle of seeing what we can do to attract events. We've got the Women's Champions League final as well coming to Cardiff. It's not always Government that delivers them. Government can be a facilitator. Government can be a conduit for making them happen. We want to work with others when they see opportunities to bring global sporting events to Wales. Like having overseas offices, it is all part of that—[Interruption.] It is all part of that work of raising Wales's profile on the world stage, and the benefits that flow from that are multiple. This soft diplomacy, plus the hard numbers of where we can attract, through sporting events, international inward investment, is something that we should embrace, all of us here, because Wales can only win from this.

Zaynub Akbar (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Prif Weinidog, I'd like to focus on the people behind the sports. Every sporting journey is built on dedication, discipline and enormous personal sacrifice, whether or not an athlete ultimately reaches the highest level of success, or even achieves financial success. Being an elite athlete is a unique way of life because, for many, their lives are structured around training, competition, travel, performance targets, coaches and team mates, often from a very young age. Education and career opportunities can be shaped around that commitment too, making the transition out of sport particularly challenging. While just a small number go on to gain financial security, many athletes make significant sacrifices without that sustainable living that comes afterwards. Yet many do leave sport with valuable skills in leadership, resilience, discipline, teamwork and performing under pressure, skills that can only benefit the wider Welsh economy and inspire future generations. So, Prif Weinidog, what support is the Welsh Government providing to support athletes transitioning into sustainable careers when they leave professional sport?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Llywydd, I know the Member speaks from her own experience working in sports governance before being elected here. But I'd say that, through our investment as a Government in elite sports, we support partners, including Sport Wales and other governing bodies, to help athletes prepare for life beyond sport, through education, through training and through career development opportunities. There are so many of them—Welsh Athletics, Swim Wales, Hoci Cymru—they all support athletes to gain coaching, officiating and leadership qualifications alongside their sporting careers. Many former elite athletes go on to become coaches, performance managers, board members and ambassadors within their sports. The Football Association of Wales is particularly good at being a centre of excellence for preparing the coaches of the future, not just for Wales, but for other nations too. And developing that pipeline is key, I think, to ensuring that the skills, the experience and the inspiration gained through representing Wales or competing in elite sports continue to benefit our economy, our communities and our sporting success in future.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

I'm a Swansea City Association Football Club supporter and I remember the effect that playing in the premiership, winning the league cup and qualifying in Europe had on the image of Swansea. I drove down Mumbles Road one Saturday morning and a huge crowd of Chelsea supporters were walking towards the city centre. They had stayed in Swansea overnight, paid for accommodation, food and drink, helping our economy. The Ospreys, when they have European games against French and English opponents, also generate a substantial number of overnight supporters, with the same effect. Does the First Minister agree with me that the success of professional sport is beneficial for our economy, and that Swansea needs Swansea City back in the premiership and a successful Ospreys team? [Laughter.]

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Right then, I'm going to have to be careful here. 'Yes' is the answer to the question. I have no doubt that professional sporting events, which happen week in, week out, of course, through professional sport in football and rugby, can bring huge, huge benefits, and supporting those hospitality sectors that support those coming to support their teams, that's something that we should encourage always.

Do I want to see Swansea City being promoted to the premier league? Absolutely, yes. As a Cardiff City Football Club fan, they can only go up if we go up as well. And let's make it Wrexham also. Because, genuinely, I think the success of Welsh football currently—. I see Jayne Bryant looking at me here—I wish Newport all the very, very best too, and all league of Wales teams. [Laughter.] But, no, I think the success of our football teams is something that we can all celebrate, whichever colour we individually choose to wear.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

First Minister, as you said, professional sport plays an important role in supporting local economies by creating jobs and generating investment in our communities. One good example is the expansion of the Novira Cymru Premier football league to 16 teams, with new branding, improved broadcasting and a stronger media presence, which has raised the profile and visibility of the league, which is indeed very welcome.

Now, this season, Haverfordwest County Association Football Club has adopted a hybrid model, combining full-time professional players with part-time players. The aim is to provide a pathway for local talent into senior football, while also further improving the club's competitiveness, building on its recent qualification for European competition, which has happened twice in recent years. So, in light of the economic impact that clubs can have on their communities, what further steps can the Welsh Government take to promote the Novira Cymru Premier football league and the clubs that actually compete in it, particularly in developing home-grown talent, strengthening their commercial profile and helping more Welsh clubs compete successfully on the European stage?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Llywydd, I hope you've built lots of time into this, because everybody wants to name their local football team now, I think. But I wish Haverfordwest well.

I'm quite excited about premier football in Wales. Currently, there's been a lot of investment and there seems to be a real vibrancy around football at its highest level in Wales. I congratulate the work that the Football Association of Wales are doing. We engage with the Football Association of Wales in many different ways in supporting grass-roots sport, and we are happy to engage in any way that could see the Welsh Government supporting and facilitating the kind of investment that I know the FAW are determined to bring into Welsh football.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

5. What progress has the First Minister made on improving timely access to NHS care? OQ64675

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Our programme for government commits us to cutting waiting lists and building a health and care service fit for the future. Backed by £145 million of additional investment, we're taking immediate action to reduce waits for diagnosis and treatment, while accelerating the wider transformation of services, with a stronger focus on prevention, care closer to home and the needs of individuals and communities.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that when it comes to dentistry, it's important to drill into the data. Recent data shows that only 40 per cent of people were treated under an NHS dentist, a 40 per cent drop since 2020. It is very difficult for anybody now to access NHS dental treatment. Your own health Minister admitted in a committee recently that he faces a 60-mile round trip to see his dentist. When the flawed new dental contract came into force on 1 April, five practices in my area of Monmouthshire Torfaen stopped providing NHS care. Access to NHS dentists is absolutely vital, otherwise Wales will face more dental problems further down the road. What are you going to do about it, First Minister? Will you finally involve practising dentists to try and help solve this problem? The lack of accessibility to NHS dentists is now out of control.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The lack of accessibility to dentists is something that deeply worries me. I lost my NHS dentist a long time ago, as many of us here have, I know. What we're in the process of doing now is reviewing the contract. We need to make sure that we have a system that works for the patient and for the dentist, who we want to work within the NHS system in Wales.

There's more beside that. We need to be making sure that we have that pipeline of dentists coming through the system. That is why work led by the now Minister for local government, when she was in opposition, to bring a new dental school to Wales is something that is so key. The problems in dentistry are plain for all to see. I do believe we have a window in which we can try to act now, but be in no doubt about the scale of the challenge that we face around dentistry, because of the legacy of a lack of attention to this over many years, I fear.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

6. What are the Welsh Government's plans for addressing poverty in this Senedd term? OQ64674

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Throughout our ambitious programme for government, we commit to take action to reduce financial pressures facing households, working to break the cycle of poverty that too many find themselves in. Our new child poverty strategy will set clear targets and milestones to drive ambitious, deliverable change. We'll also seek to introduce the Cynnal child payment pilot. This Government will help those in crisis, while taking longer term, strategic action to prevent people falling into poverty in the first place.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

It's fascinating that your answer did not explicitly state whether you're talking about absolute poverty or relative poverty, and they are very different metrics. Absolute poverty focuses on the welfare of the poorest people in our society, something I want to see all Governments focus on. The other, relative poverty, is in reality a type of inequality, focused on the gap in wealth between people, and that can be a very dangerous metric. As Margaret Thatcher said, those who focus on inequality above absolute poverty would rather the poor were poorer so long as the rich were even less rich, reducing the gap. First Minister, do you accept there is an important difference in the two measures of poverty? To avoid confusion in future, will you and your Government, when referencing poverty, state clearly whether you're talking about absolute poverty or the socialist obsession that is inequality?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think the fact that the Member wants an academic discussion rather than a discussion about how we as a Government can really help those who are in dire need of that help from Government says a lot. The fact that he quotes Margaret Thatcher in an argument on tackling poverty speaks even further volumes. We have a series of measures that we have put in place. Our poverty strategy, setting the meaningful targets that the sector and others have called for, is going to be a really important part of that. We haven't had a trajectory for some years in Wales on where we need to go in terms of tackling poverty. What I know is that the problems are real. That's why the universal childcare offer cuts to some of the biggest challenges that families are facing, and why the Cynnal direct payment can be the beginnings of something that genuinely puts a safety net beneath some of our poorest families in Wales.

Sera Evans (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

7. How will the Welsh Government support social prescribing capacity in Afan Ogwr Rhondda? OQ64651

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

This Government is committed to supporting social prescribing across Wales, including in Afan Ogwr Rhondda, helping people to improve their health and well-being through community-based support and by focusing on prevention. As recently as yesterday morning, the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health, Nerys Evans, visited an excellent project for social prescribing that is nature based, namely Grow Well at the Dusty Forge in Ely, here in Cardiff. We are investing in an independent evaluation to assess outcomes for individuals, communities and front-line services and to try and better understand how social prescribing can improve well-being and support sustainable services.

Sera Evans (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you for your response, First Minister. For social prescribing to be effective, we not only need the ability to make referrals, but we also need a strong and sustainable network of community organisations that have the resources to be able to accept them. Recently, I met Kate from the Gilfach Goch Community Association, which provides a wide range of support to about 1,500 local residents, with the demand continuing to rise.

Institutions like this are exactly the sort of places people get referred to, but one of the concerns I hear again and again is that funding streams can lean heavily towards capital funding, with much less flexibility in terms of the revenue funding needed to pay staff, cover operational costs and keep services running. A building isn't much use if there aren't people and resources to keep the doors open and provide the services inside.

So, could the Government consider how more flexibility could be built in between capital and revenue funding in grant programmes in the future, so that organisations like the Gilfach Goch Community Association have the capacity and stability they need to meet the growing demand, and so that—many large words here today—social prescribing leads to continuous support that underpins this Government's preventative agenda? Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you. It's good to hear about the work of the centre in Gilfach Goch. I agree that social prescribing, done effectively, does depend on strong community organisations that are sustainable and have the capacity to meet ever-increasing demand. The voluntary sector is key to that Welsh model. I certainly accept that the pressures around short-term budgeting and the lack of flexibility on occasion in terms of staffing and running costs can create problems.

We as a Government will continue to work with partners and to consider how possible changes to funding arrangements in future could better support that capacity and the stability available to these organisations, so that they can deliver our preventative agenda. Because the Government doing this is not the whole story; the story is that the Government sets the tone, and we need partners to do that work on the ground.

Lyn Ackerman (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

8. What assessment has the First Minister made of whether the current learner travel framework is delivering fair access to education across Wales? OQ64650

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Effective learner travel provision is vital to ensure that children and young people can access the education that they need. I understand there are also challenges for local authorities, given very real budget pressures. This is why we've committed to a joined-up approach to learner travel in our programme for government and why we've already delivered on our first 100 days commitment to review learner travel in Welsh-medium education in particular.

Lyn Ackerman (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

The statutory threshold remains 2 miles for primary schools and 3 miles for secondary pupils. In communities such as Islwyn, the reality of their journey can be very different, depending on the terrain, the roads and whether there is a genuinely safe walking route. Will the First Minister look at whether the current framework is producing fair and consistent outcomes for children across Wales?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I certainly appreciate that journeys for pupils are different depending on their individual circumstances. We're looking at the existing framework in the context of the budgets available to us. The Deputy Minister for Transport has himself highlighted learner travel as one of his key priorities. We'll consider this as a Cabinet, because it does cut across portfolios.

I know that decisions are made on a local level by local authorities, some of whose decisions to deem walking routes safe do raise questions and anxiety. But these are decisions for those local authorities. It is for local authorities to assess whether a walking route is safe, taking account of the conditions learners would encounter on that journey to school at that time of day, and so on.

Beca Brown (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support survivors of childhood abuse who experience further trauma when accessing historical social work, health or police records? OQ64653

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

For many survivors, accessing historical records is important in understanding their childhood, but the process can be deeply distressing. We know that. We are supporting public services to adopt trauma-informed approaches, so that people are treated with dignity, compassion and sensitivity. This work is reinforced through our trauma-informed Wales framework and our strategy for preventing and responding to child sexual abuse. Both recognise the lifelong impact of abuse and place survivors' voices at the centre of improvement.

Beca Brown (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Thank you, First Minister. Victims and survivors tell us that, when they raise concerns about victim-blaming language or missed opportunities to protect them within historical social work, health or police records, they are often told that these attitudes were simply a product of the time and would not be acceptable today. However, for survivors living with post-traumatic stress disorder, physical ill health and the lifelong consequences of abuse, the impact is very much felt today. Many access these records in an attempt to piece together their life story and to better understand their experiences, only to find that the files leave them with more questions than answers. For professionals, these may be historical records, but for survivors, the trauma is not historical at all. What more can the Welsh Government do to ensure survivors are met with recognition, trauma-informed support and meaningful acknowledgement of the harm these records can still cause?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

We recognise that the language, the assumptions or professional judgments contained in some historical records can be distressing and certainly can compound the impact of past trauma. Through the trauma-informed Wales framework and that strategy for preventing and responding to child sexual abuse, we are supporting services to respond with dignity, with compassion, with sensitivity, recognising, as I say, that the effects of abuse can be lifelong. We're also continuing to support life journey work for children in care, care leavers and adopted children, helping them to understand their personal history and experiences in a way that is sensitive, that is meaningful and that, crucially, is centred on their voice. These are matters that the Government is determined to take steps forward on, for very good reason, because we are talking about people who face vulnerabilities, and they deserve to sense that support from Government in all ways.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We'll move now to questions to the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution. The first question is from Donna Cushing.

Donna Cushing (Plaid Cymru, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

1. Will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the proposed National Commission for Wales? OQ64628

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

The Welsh Government is committed to establishing a national commission for Wales and is taking forward the final arrangements necessary for its establishment. I will make a further statement to Senedd Members in due course, setting out the commission’s remit, membership and next steps.

Donna Cushing (Plaid Cymru, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. Devolving the Crown Estate to Wales is very broadly and strongly supported all across the country. Every single one of our 22 unitary authorities in Wales have recently voted in favour of bringing powers over the Crown Estate to Wales. Since 2017, Scotland has had powers over its own estate, which lets the Scottish Government retain and reinvest the income generated. According to Crown Estate Scotland, in one 12-month period, it generated an economic impact of £2.1 billion and supported 17,000 jobs. We, on the other hand, are not so lucky. The profits generated from the Welsh part of the Crown Estate flow back to the UK Treasury, with a share allocated to the royal household. The income from retaining the full value of leasing our land and sea bed could be transformative for Wales, generating energy and reinvesting in our communities. Given that the demand is already so strong and supported all across Wales, what is the next step for making the case for devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales and making sure we get a fair settlement in line with Scotland's?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I thank the Member for the question. The case is very clearly made for the devolution of the Crown Estate. If you look over the past decade, there have been hundreds of millions of pounds of profits made by the Crown Estate in Wales. We believe that money should be invested in Wales and in Welsh energy and in supporting Welsh families and communities. The Welsh Government has established an expert group on the devolution of the Crown Estate and the future of the Crown Estate, which is building the evidence case. I expect a final report from the group to be published next summer. Then they will move forward to work on the broader issues of energy devolution.

Francesca O'Brien (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

2. What assessment has the Cabinet Minister made of the impact on Government effectiveness of the Welsh Government's relationship with trade unions? OQ64620

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

As a Government, we recognise the value that trade unions bring to Government effectiveness. They provide structures for meaningful dialogue, negotiation and problem solving, enabling early intervention that saves time and money. Social partnership ensures workforce voices are heard early in decision making and remains the most effective way to address Wales's challenges.

Francesca O'Brien (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you, Minister, for your response. You might have noticed I've written a number of times to you—I've kept your office busy—and I've written to your office a number of times via written questions, and I thank your office for supplying information on that. From that information gathered, it has shown that, over the previous Labour Government, over the course of five years, around £13 million was provided to trade unions. In addition to that information, it has also shown that they have also funded up to 10 equivalent full-time posts. What I do find a little bit concerning is that there's no definite time spent on trade union work and that of their civil service work. My question to you is, Minister, will your Government be spending any more taxpayers' money on political trade unions?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

As I said in my first response, this Government remains committed to social partnership. It is something that we believe in, in principle and on principle. There will be Members across this Chamber who have led organisations and who have managed organisations with trade unions and built effective relationships with those trade unions. We will make no apology for supporting trade unions, for working with them. There will be times, as everyone knows, when we will not see eye to eye on everything with those trade unions, but a strong and happy workforce is an effective workforce, and I'm proud to say that this Government will work with our trade union partners.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First, the Reform UK spokesperson, Iain McIntosh.

Iain McIntosh (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Diolch, Lywydd. Before I address the Minister, I just wanted to correct the record on something the First Minister said earlier, when he suggested that all Reform Members want to take down the Welsh flag. I can't call that a lie, but I would like to say it's deliberately misleading, because we don't want to do that. I would like to suggest that he perhaps concentrates on his own Members, some of whom seem intent on merging the Welsh flag with the Palestinian flag. I'll leave that there. Thank you. [Interruption.]

To address the Minister: Cabinet Minister, how much taxpayers' money has the Welsh Government committed to pursuing Welsh independence, including establishing the new national commission and seeking powers to hold an independence referendum? Even a recent poll commissioned by the pro-independence organisation Yes Cymru found that only 32 per cent of likely voters would consider supporting independence. So, there is clearly no blanket support for independence across Wales at all. At a time when the NHS, our schools, councils and front-line services are under enormous financial pressure, do you really believe that this is an appropriate use of taxpayers' money, and will you please publish the full projected cost of pursuing this agenda over the course of this Senedd term?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Well, I welcome the Member to his new position on the Reform frontbench. Had he been at a previous question time, he would have heard me say from this position that this Government is committed to delivering on its priorities for the people of Wales—on childcare, on child poverty, on the economy, on educational standards and on tackling waiting lists. Those are our priorities. That mission is underpinned by standing up for Wales, and we make no apology for seeking devolution of the Crown Estate, for the very reasons we've heard outlined earlier, for improving our rail services, and for making our communities safer by devolving policing. That is our agenda as a Government, as I set out in my oral statement on the priorities on the constitution.

Iain McIntosh (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Diolch, Lywydd. You answered a question I didn't put to you, but, anyway, I'll try again with a different one. Mine was about devolution, but anyway—sorry, about independence.

Cabinet Minister, how are Wales's taxpayers actually supposed to know whether the Welsh Government is delivering value for their money? Billions of pounds are spent every year across numerous programmes, projects and initiatives, but spending money is not the same as delivering results. So, will you publish clear performance data showing what every Welsh Government programme is supposed to achieve, how much it costs, whether it is on time, and, crucially, whether it is actually working? Now, when a programme repeatedly fails to deliver results or value for money, will you reform it or scrap it altogether, rather than continuing to pour taxpayers' money into something that simply isn't working?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

There's a simple answer to that question, which is 'yes', because, as a Government, we are committed to outcomes. We have been critical of previous Governments who have poured money into projects and focused on inputs and outputs rather than outcomes that people can feel in their daily lives across the country. Part of my role is to challenge and to work with every one of my Cabinet colleagues to look at those Government programmes, to ensure that we are both getting value for taxpayers' money and ensuring that we're delivering outcomes for people right across Wales, whether that's on childcare, on the economy, on education—change that people can feel.

Iain McIntosh (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Okay. Thank you for that one. Cabinet Minister, I would also like to know why does the Welsh Government keep creating more bureaucracy instead of reducing it. Since 2018, 16 new devolved public bodies have now been created, whilst only five have been replaced or abolished, but now your Government wants to actually create even more. Now, every new body means more boards, more senior executives, more administration and, unfortunately, more cost to the taxpayer. So, when are you actually going to start reducing the machinery of Government? Will you identify which arm's-length bodies duplicate work that is already being done elsewhere, publish what each one costs, and commit to merging or abolishing those that are simply not necessary? Government efficiency shouldn't mean managing even more bureaucracy; it really should mean having the courage to get rid of it if isn't working.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Again, I thank the Member for the question. This Government has a very limited set of bodies that it seeks to set up. There has been widespread debate about the national economic development agency. There is widespread consensus across this Chamber that the Welsh economy is not performing as it should, and an arm's-length, business-driven development agency is a clear way forward there. However, I share the Member's scepticism for the proliferation of bureaucracy, for more bodies for bodies' sake. You will be aware that the Government publishes the budget and the grant letter for every Government sponsored body on an annual basis. Where there are efficiencies to be gained, I will certainly pursue them. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The Welsh Labour spokesperson, Huw Thomas.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Thank you, Llywydd. Many comments have been made over recent weeks on constitutional issues. I want to focus on what's important to the people of Wales, and that's why I want to ask questions on the programme for government.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Minister, the programme for government, which you have overall oversight for, is full of references to collaboration and it's also very strong—there's a whole section on it—about supporting teachers. But, last week, an overwhelming majority of school leaders voted to support industrial action in response to your Government's priorities and policies. Ninety-three per cent of NAHT members voted, and 72.5 per cent of them indicated they would be prepared to take industrial action. Why does the Minister think the programme for government has been so poorly received by school leaders? Can you confirm that intensive negotiations with NAHT are now taking place, and what progress is the Government making?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Thank you for the question.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I think what we're seeing across the public services in Wales is a legacy of a decade and more of austerity that has seen cuts and challenges, and public services that are genuinely facing crisis point. I am very pleased that my colleague the Minister for education has been engaging effectively with a range of teaching unions. There's been more progress with some than others. I said in my earlier answer that trade union colleagues and us will not always agree. Those negotiations are ongoing, and I'm sure we would all wish to see a positive conclusion to those negotiations. My colleague the Cabinet Minister for education has focused on raising standards in our schools, and if we are to achieve that, it must be done in collaboration and co-operation with both the teachers and those who lead our schools.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Diolch, Weinidog. I applaud the answer you gave earlier in response to Reform's attack on trade unions, and I should declare myself a member of many of them, including Unite, because I'm going to come on to this. You talk about social partnership, you talk about Government efficiency, and there's a clear link between both, but at your own party conference this weekend, you had a delegation of health visitors from Cwm Taf, who are Unite members, who've been on strike. They heard a political priority from the First Minister that he would resolve their dispute, and they believe he's lied. Those are their words—that he's failed to keep his promise. As the Minister responsible for keeping the Government's priorities, do you regret the First Minister's failure to keep his promise? We now have the longest running nursing strike in NHS Wales history. To secure efficiency of the NHS, what will you do to resolve the issue?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

As my colleague will know full well, the Cabinet Minister for health is responsible for the health service and our health priorities, and has set out our approach and our encouragement to all of those partners in the debate in Cwm Taf, to reach a negotiated conclusion. We very much hope that will happen at the soonest time possible.

The point more generally about the NHS is an important one. People right across Wales are currently being let down by a service that has not invested significantly enough in tackling waiting lists. We have invested, as the First Minister said earlier, £145 million in bringing down waiting lists, because the impact of that on individuals, on families, on workplaces right across Wales is unconscionable, and those are our priorities as a Government.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Diolch, Lywydd. As the Cabinet Minister for effectiveness, what actions are you taking to guarantee that your Cabinet colleagues are effectively ensuring value for money in the departments across the Welsh Government?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

One of the areas that we are looking at as a centralised Cabinet office in the Government is looking right across our Government priorities and ensuring that there is effective delivery on those and there is effective value for money. I know my colleague the Cabinet Minister for Finance has been engaging with Cabinet colleagues about their budgets for the year ahead, working closely with them to ensure that there is value for money at the heart of those programmes. Government effectiveness is about value for money, it is about delivering outcomes for people, and it comes back to the question posed earlier: if there are programmes that are not delivering measurable, tangible outcomes for people in communities right across Wales, then we should indeed reconsider them.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Minister. You'll know, in July, that your colleague the Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport announced that the Welsh Government will be setting up a new shadow broadcasting and communications authority as a first step in trying to pull powers over broadcasting away from the UK Government. And you'll know, of course, that broadcasting has never been devolved, so setting up the shadow authority is clearly an example of this Plaid Cymru Welsh Government working outside of its constitutional boundaries. And, of course, as the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution, I'm sure you were the first to object to these plans at the earliest opportunity.

At the same time, your colleague also announced that tens of thousands of pounds have been set aside to fund the shadow authority in its first year. And, of course, because it's not a devolved matter, there's no funding from the UK Government to enable this to happen, meaning every penny spent on the shadow authority has to be redirected from an area the Welsh Government does have responsibility for. So, Cabinet Minister, do you think that this is an effective use of taxpayers' money that the Welsh Government is spending tens of thousands of pounds on something it has no responsibility for?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I think if anyone had seen the evidence from colleagues in the media, in BBC and in S4C, to the culture committee in Westminster and in other places on the challenges facing the media landscape, and the very real challenges facing the media landscape right across Wales, they would understand that broadcasting in Wales would be in a stronger place if it was indeed devolved. That is why this Government is committed to the devolution of broadcasting, so that we can have effective media, so that we can have effective scrutiny of this Government, amongst other things. That is what we support, and we make no apology for supporting that.

Safa Elhassan (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

3. What assessment has the Cabinet Minister made of how statistics can support more effective government and public sector decision making across Wales? OQ64626

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Diolch, Safa. Trustworthy statistics play a vital role in effective decision making across Wales. They help us understand where need is greatest, target resources effectively and judge whether outcomes are improving. As a Government, we are committed to using high-quality evidence to shape policy and delivery, and to publish clear outcomes that strengthen accountability.

Safa Elhassan (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Diolch, Cabinet Minister. Evidence-based decision making is central to delivering effective public service and ensuring the best use of public money. In healthcare, for example, we know that additional capacity can sometimes be needed to reduce waiting times. Audit Wales has highlighted that insourcing and outsourcing can help reduce long waits, but that it can also place additional pressure on NHS finances down the line, whilst opportunities remain to improve productivity within NHS services. So, Cabinet Minister, how is the Welsh Government ensuring that decisions on improving and delivering effective public services are not just informed by immediate cost savings or short-term deliveries, but also on sustainability, long-term outcomes and capacity building?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Diolch yn fawr. The Member, from her professional background, speaks clearly from experience. I believe there is more work to be done in the NHS on improving productivity. I also believe that throwing money at a problem as a sticking plaster is not a long-term solution. Decisions should be informed by evidence on outcomes, value for money and long-term sustainability, not simply the upfront costs. Health economics is an important part of that evidence base, helping decision makers understand what delivers the best outcomes from available resources. For example, health economics is being used in our work as a Government to bring care closer to home, often referred to as Community by Design, including community resource teams, virtual wards, integrated community hubs for health and social care.

Shav Taj (Labour, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Minister, good workforce data should, obviously, allow Governments to anticipate pressures rather than respond when they reach crisis point. How will your Government's data on recruitment, retention and workforce pressures to engage with our trade unions earlier actually help prevent some of those pressures ultimately escalating into industrial disputes? And talking of understanding our workforce, it is important, of course, for me to also reference that TUC Cymru has consistently gathered evidence about the experiences of workers in Wales because good policy obviously does start with good data. And I think that some of the mentions in relation to funding and social partnership—. Of course, Wales union learning fund funding provides funding for unions to encourage and support work-placed learning specifically, and it's about skills, and, of course, the TUC has very cleared referenced that 100,000 workers in Wales have benefited as a result of that funding in recent years.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you to the Member for their question. I also pay tribute to the work that she did in a previous life with TUC Cymru, doing very important work on behalf of trade unions in Wales. The focus of the question on recruitment and retention is an important one in the health service. There is work on a workforce strategy being undertaken currently, both by Welsh Government and our colleagues in Health Education and Improvement Wales. Getting these data right and planning for the long term is crucial, because we need the right staffing in the right places, with the right mix of skills, in order to deliver long-term, sustainable success for our health service.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Good afternoon, Minister, and thank you to Safa for the question.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

You said in your response to Safa that trustworthy statistics and evidence is vital to the delivery of services, but that must also include listening to residents: 9,700 people in Powys have objected to the proposals ahead of them. But I also want to talk about a recent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales—and you've talked about that body—inspection of Gwaun Cae Gurwen Surgery. It found that 85 per cent of respondents rated their experience as 'poor', while 73 per cent did not feel listened to or involved in decisions about their healthcare—a very high proportion of patients for that practice, yet the inspection did not identify failings that fully reflected the level of dissatisfaction reported by patients. We know that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales can make recommendations and seek improvements, but there are questions about how much leverage sits behind those recommendations when services fail to improve. So, Minister, I really want to hear this answer—an answer, please: for more effective—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

A question, please. [Inaudible.]

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Yes, well, I'm pre-empting it. [Laughter.] For more effective public sector decision making, who has the power to ensure that clear evidence of poor service actually results in action?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I thank the Member for the question and for highlighting some of those very local issues. Clearly, I'm not abreast of the precise nature of the issues in Gwaun Cae Gurwen, but if the Member would like to write to myself or my Cabinet colleague the Cabinet Minister for health, I'm sure we can look specifically at that.

I think there is a broader question here about how Government listens, takes concerns on board and what those avenues are for citizens right across the country to make progress when those concerns are not being listened to. We've heard various examples over the last hour or so from colleagues across this Chamber. It is something that we need to be clear about, and there is almost certainly a case for ensuring that that is as effective as possible, and it's one of those areas I'd be happy to look at.

Leticia Gonzalez (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Penarth)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Minister had with the Cabinet Minister for Finance about delivering the Government's priority of working to improve levels of local procurement? OQ64638

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I have regular discussions with the Cabinet Minister for Finance on public procurement and its contribution to the Welsh economy. These discussions have included strengthening Welsh supply chains, improving access to opportunities for Welsh businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises and social enterprises, and increasing expenditure with Wales-based suppliers towards our 70 per cent ambition.

Leticia Gonzalez (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Penarth)

Thank you. I understand the importance of small businesses across the region being offered the opportunity to grow. Such growth in small businesses is critical to Wales for expanding employment opportunities and in terms of improving their productivity. I see local procurement as one such area of opportunity we should be encouraging and supporting. Therefore, how is your department tracking data to ensure that small and medium-sized businesses are successfully winning local contracts?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I thank the Member for the question. The point is very well made. We need to support our small and medium-sized enterprises, and in my view, we can do more as a Government to support those small and medium-sized enterprises. We track supplier and contract award data through our procurement systems and business intelligence reporting and supplier information, including SME status where available, is drawn from core procurement platforms and analysed through departmental dashboards. And what this enables us to do is monitor the participation and success of SMEs in winning contracts, assess trends over time and identify opportunities to increase access to public sector procurement for local businesses.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Claire Johnson-Wood.

Claire Johnson-Wood (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

I think my question's been answered. Thank you.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Thank you very much.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you very much. Questions 5 and 9 are grouped. Question 5, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

5. How is the Cabinet Minister improving the delivery of the Government's policies? OQ64633

Nigel Williams (Reform UK, Fflint Wrecsam)

9. What action is the Cabinet Minister taking to ensure that the Government is able to deliver its priorities for the people of Wales? OQ64613

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Presiding Officer, I understand that you have given your permission for questions 5 and 9 to be grouped.

In my role, I am focused on strengthening delivery across Government. Through our programme for government, we have set clear priorities. I am working to keep our efforts focused on those priorities, support joined-up working and maintain a clear focus on outcomes.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Thank you, Minister. You highlighted there your priorities for delivery. During the election campaign, the now First Minister signed a letter that has been quoted many times in this Chamber regarding the health visitors' dispute in the Cwm Taf health board area. The key line in that letter was:

'upgrade all Band 6 health visitors to Band 7'.

There's no ambiguity there. The First Minister put his name to that letter. How are you getting on in delivering that pledge, or wasn't it a pledge, and it was misleading in its kindest form and an outright lie in its cruellest form?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I think Members should be very careful in this Chamber of accusing colleagues of misleading the Chamber or—

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Well, have you delivered it?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

—misleading people. Our manifesto in the election, upon which we stood, upon which we fought the election and won the election, was based on prioritising bringing waiting lists down, on tackling waiting lists, prioritising the health service and developing productivity within the NHS. That is our priority and I will remain focused on that priority.

Nigel Williams (Reform UK, Fflint Wrecsam)

Cabinet Secretary, before entering this Senedd, I served our communities as a police officer, a teacher and I worked in the NHS. And I now see daily the immense pressures on hospitals, care homes, schools, businesses and front-line staff, especially in my constituency of Fflint Wrecsam. Our communities are closely linked, as you know, with Chester, Merseyside and the wider north-west, and people want practical improvements, not further constitutional distraction. Can you explain how this Government can claim to be effective if time and civil service capacity are spent pursuing constitutional ambitions while front-line public services remain under so much pressure in the area? Thank you.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Thank you to the Member, and I'm very well aware of those thriving and important cross-border relationships in the north-east to the north-west of England, and also in the south-east to the south-west of England, and we support those important relationships.

I think the broader question relating to Government priorities is very clear in my mind. Our priorities are childcare, child poverty, the health service, schools and the economy. And on each of those, we intend to make progress. As the Cabinet Minister for the constitution, specifically charged with looking at constitutional issues, there are a range of areas—railways, the Crown Estate, policing—where I believe we can make progress, working with the UK Government, to deliver better services for people in Wales. And that remains the core focus of my work as a Government Minister and a core focus of our work as a Welsh Government—delivering better public services, whether it's in schools, health or education.

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. From childcare to business rates and support with the cost of living, this Government is already tackling the issues affecting people across Wales. I'm pleased to see us collaborating across different portfolios and reducing the work carried out in Government silos, which is something that has been needed for many years.

Now, as noted after the first 100 days, the Government is investing £100 million in tackling waiting lists in the NHS. It's vital for people across Wales, and, of course, in Gŵyr Abertawe, that the Government succeeds in tackling this huge problem, which has faced Wales for far too long. How will the Government ensure that these investments will provide the most effective, and, more importantly, continuous benefit, while delivering the programme for government? Thank you.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Well, I thank the Member very much for the question, and I know that he has served the NHS for many years, and very effectively, in Swansea. There is a common theme to these questions, isn't there, that, with this additional funding that the Government's providing in childcare, in the health service, in the economy, we need outcomes for the people of Wales. And therefore, we need to look in great detail, as my colleague the Cabinet Minister for health has done, at what exactly those plans are. Are they plans that will deliver for the longer term? Do they ensure that there is collaboration between the health service and the care service provided through local authorities in order to ensure that the care package is complete, to ensure that some of the challenges in the system are addressed? Do they look, as our colleague earlier referred to, to the longer term with the workforce? So, all of those issues have to coalesce, and we always have to ask the question as to whether this money is going to deliver real change in the long term, not just in the short term. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you. Before moving on to the next question—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

—can I just remind Members of the conventions, protocols, guidelines and otherwise in this Chamber of not accusing or coming close to accusing other Members of lying or misleading? There are points of debate, but we have ways of debating this within the Chamber. It's not aimed at anybody in particular. In the generality, please, abide by that.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Question 6. Elfed Williams.

Elfed Williams (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

6. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the need for a new Wales Act to ensure equality of powers with Scotland? OQ64630

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Our assessment is that Wales should have the powers that it needs to deliver for the people of Wales, improve services and strengthen accountability. We are pressing for a fairer settlement for Wales. A new Wales Bill would provide the clearest way and the most effective way of implementing agreed changes.

Elfed Williams (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you for that response. The current devolution settlement in Wales leaves us short of many of the powers and the flexibility that we need as a nation to formulate and implement coherent cross-departmental policies for the benefit of our communities. I was very pleased to hear the First Minister of Wales announce last week that he had written to the UK Prime Minister formally to try to secure a new deal for Wales, a deal that would transfer a number of powers that have already been devolved to Scotland, such as policing, justice, the Crown Estate, railways, welfare and fiscal fairness. A number of independent commissions and reviews over the years, including the Silk commission and the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, have come to the conclusion that devolution needs to be strengthened and more powers placed in the hands of the Senedd in order to allow Wales to deal more effectively with its own challenges. With that in mind, will the Cabinet Minister commit to continuing to press the UK Government? Finally—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Cabinet Minister.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Thank you. I believe the Member is asking me to commit to press the UK Government to secure progress. I make that clear commitment this afternoon, and I do so happily. I think it's worth reporting to the Senedd that my initial meetings with UK Cabinet Ministers have been constructive and collaborative. Of course, as the discussions develop, we will get into the minutiae. But I am eager to emphasise that the response that I've received to date has been positive, and I therefore hope that that will be the basis for further progress.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to decentralise decision making within Wales? OQ64636

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

The Welsh Government will work closely with partners at a local and regional level to ensure that decision making and service delivery take place in ways that support effective delivery of public services.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Thank you for that answer. Andy Burnham, the new Prime Minister, of course, has set out his ambition to rewire the state. It's quite clear to me and many people in Wales that we need to rewire Wales in order to make sure that people in their communities have a greater opportunity to shape the decisions that are made about those communities by politicians at all levels. One of the ways to do that is to make politicians more accountable to the citizens that they serve. What action is the Welsh Government going to take to address the accountability gap created by the new Senedd election system, which, I'm afraid, the way that it is at the moment, does not give an opportunity for individual members of the public to demonstrate their support for an individual candidate, rather than a political party?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Well, I'm delighted to see that the Welsh Conservatives are now in favour of the single transferrable vote. I should encourage everyone—[Interruption.] I should encourage everyone in this—[Interruption.] Well, that is the best way—[Interruption.] That is the best way—[Interruption.] That is the best way to ensure effective accountability, and I hope in due course that every Member of the Senedd will support such a development of the Welsh electoral system.

Beca Brown (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

8. What is the Government's approach to ensuring co-operation across portfolios to deliver the Programme for Government? OQ64627

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

The greatest challenges facing Wales demand a whole-Government response. That is why our programme for government sets out a new ambition for Wales, based on shared priorities rather than departmental silos. I work closely with colleagues right across the Cabinet to ensure that the Government collaborates across portfolios to ensure meaningful outcomes for people across Wales.

Beca Brown (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Thank you, Minister. I was delighted to lead a debate in this Chamber on the need to integrate the work of preventing ACEs, or adverse childhood experiences, and respond to them across public services. The experience of a child or a person of trauma doesn't respect departmental boundaries. Housing, health, education, social care and employment can all play their part in creating conditions where children and families recover from trauma and prosper. Will you therefore outline how the Government will help to ensure that trauma and adverse experiences during childhood, or ACEs, are covered across Government, rather than as an issue for individual departments?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I thank the Member for the question, and I pay tribute to the work that she has carried out, and others in the Chamber, on a cross-party basis, to develop our understanding of the impact that trauma does have on children and, indeed, on adults who have experienced trauma as children. Through the trauma-informed Wales framework and the support of ACE Hub Wales and close collaboration across ministerial portfolios, we're implementing approaches informed by adverse childhood experiences and trauma across the development of policies and the provision of services.

Preventing ACEs and responding effectively to trauma is a responsibility that's shared across the Government and public services. Our approach has been planned to ensure that the work is co-ordinated, rather than left to individual organisations and departments to implement themselves. That's our ambition, Llywydd. My hope as part of my role is to ensure that that does happen. That ambition, which was shared by Governments of the past, hasn't always been implemented at grass-roots level, and that's what I would wish to focus on.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Question 9 was grouped with question 5. Question 10 [OQ64637] is withdrawn. So, question 11, Steven Rodaway.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you, Llywydd.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

11. What discussions has the Cabinet Minister had with the UK Minister for Policing and the Secretary of State for Wales regarding the devolution of policing? OQ64634

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

This Government’s position is clear: policing should be fully devolved to Wales. The Dirprwy Brif Weinidog and I have met with the policing Minister to discuss devolution and other policing priorities. I've also had an introductory meeting with the Secretary of State for Wales.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you. Minister, your Government's supplementary budget was recently defeated. Your finance Minister then wrote

'we must avoid creating additional spending obligations where the funding position has yet to be agreed.'

Before seeking more policing powers, your Government should demonstrate that it can deliver with the powers it already holds. Education is devolved, yet Wales has the worst Programme for International Student Assessment scores in the United Kingdom.

Your Government is also struggling with other existing responsibilities, such as cutting NHS waiting lists. Your own statistics show that the number of pathways waiting for treatment increased between June and July, with two-year waits also rising. Those are delivery problems under responsibilities you already hold. And yet, with all these current issues the Government is struggling with, surprisingly, you seek additional devolved powers for policing. Money doesn't grow on trees, although our previous Welsh Government seemed to test that theory in Uganda. Given your record of failings, what evidence do you have that this Government can deliver if policing is devolved? Thank you.

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I thank the Member for the question. I'm not entirely sure that he is convinced of a record of failings after five months. I should probably remind him that another party was in Government for 27 years, and if he wants to address—[Interruption.] If he wants to address questions to Members of that party, I'm sure he can do so afterwards in the tea room.

Our focus as a Government is on delivery, on schools, on childcare, on child poverty, on the NHS and on the economy. We have identified that there is a programme of policing reform taking place now for the England and Wales jurisdiction, led by the Home Office. There is an opportunity there to make the case for greater devolution for Wales, for greater responsibility for the Welsh Government, which will make communities in Wales safer, and that is what we will pursue.

Lis McLean (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

12. How is the Welsh Government ensuring the successful implementation of the Well‑being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? OQ64623

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

The programme for government and our well-being objectives are a single framework for action, linking the priorities people have entrusted us to deliver and the long-term outcomes of the Act that we want to achieve. I've also agreed to a review of the Act, focusing on enhancing the Act’s implementation in practice.

Lis McLean (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Minister, culture has faced a decade of funding cuts. Funding cuts don't just affect the arts sector. They also have a direct impact on the well-being and vitality of Welsh communities and society. If we are serious about the well-being of future generations Act, we must ring-fence and protect preventative funding to support the arts. Culture contributes directly to the well-being of individuals and to the vitality of our communities throughout Wales. So, how will the Minister work across portfolios to ensure that culture is recognised as an integral part of preventative health across Government?

Dafydd Davies (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I thank the Member for that question. There is a clear commitment from this Government to promote culture and sport. There is a new culture and sport strategy, which is being led by the Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport and Trefnydd. There is a clear focus from this Government on promoting sport and culture, whilst also recognising, as you have set out, the important role that culture and sport can have across a range of public policies, including the preventative health agenda, which is hugely important to this Government. Thank you.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you very much, Minister.

3. Business Statement and Announcement

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

We will move now to item 3, the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft Plenary business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Minister, I would like an urgent statement on who is holding the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust to account for electrification and decarbonisation spending. My freedom of information request remains unanswered. Financial information requested before our future meeting is being withheld. This is public money, and that is unacceptable. Is this yet another expensive vanity project with little obvious tangible benefits to patients? Where's the funded plan? What evidence shows this spending will cut response times, deliver life-saving treatment sooner and save lives, or will this ultimately cost lives on the altar of decarbonisation? Can the Minister guarantee those improvements? If so, show the Chamber credible evidence from an independent body. If the ambulance service persists with this project, will the Minister restore the previous response time measure alongside current reporting so that the public can accurately judge performance? Saving lives must be the measure of success. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

There are questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care tomorrow, so it would be appropriate for you to raise them tomorrow during that session. If there's no opportunity to do that, I would suggest that you write with all of your questions to the Minister directly.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Could I ask for a statement from the Government updating us on the work on the fire summit, please? I know that there was a very clear consensus in the Chamber when we had the statement from the First Minister that there should be involvement of those who worked at a grass-roots level—so, farmers and others who supported the firefighters in their efforts. I was concerned to see that, of the representatives from Blaenavon, just one has been included. Indeed, one of the key landowners has actually been uninvited. I'm also informed that the summit is only going to be for two hours. I would question whether that will be enough to deal with something as significant as this. So, could I ask the Trefnydd whether we could have an update on this?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you for raising those issues. You will have heard the First Minister stating unambiguously the commitment of this Government to look at and learn the necessary lessons from those experiences. You will also know the order of business in this Senedd. With the concerns that you expresses, I would suggest that writing to the First Minister would be best, because they were very specific issues that you raised. I think, in looking at the business programme, perhaps there wouldn't be space for such a statement for a number of weeks, whereas the issues that you have raised suggest that you need an answer sooner than that. Clearly, we are committed to continuing to update this Senedd and we will do so with all Members on this crucial issue.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy on the announcement that Milford Haven's Impala terminal is to cease its commercial operations at the end of this year. We must fully understand the implications of this announcement, including the scale of any job losses and the impact on the local economy. We also need further clarity on how the Welsh Government intends to support both the company and its workforce as this situation develops. These are highly skilled and valuable jobs, and every effort must be made to retain this expertise within the region and to safeguard future employment opportunities. In my view, losing such skills would be a significant blow to the local economy and, indeed, to the wider energy sector. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Welsh Government could provide an urgent statement outlining its engagement with the company to date, the discussions it has held regarding the future of the terminal and the support that may be available to both the workforce and the operator, going forward.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising an important matter that I know is of great concern to Members in the wake of this news, and I know that the Government is in discussions with the company to understand what the implications are. I also understand that there is a topical question on this issue, which will be a matter for the Llywydd and Dirprwy Lywydd to consider. Certainly, we are very disappointed to hear this news. I know that this will create great concern locally and for those who face uncertainty in the broader community. So, I can provide that assurance to the Member that those discussions with the Government and the company are continuing and, certainly, I will ensure that the Cabinet Minister knows that you have raised this important issue today.

Claire Archibald (Reform UK, Ceredigion Penfro)

Trefnydd, could I request an urgent statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care regarding the reported outbreak of scabies in the Hywel Dda health board area, and the adequacy of the Welsh Government's response to this developing public health concern? There is growing concern about the spread of scabies within communities and care settings. The situation has become even more alarming following the reported death of an elderly gentleman, whose illness was linked to complications associated with scabies. Given the vulnerability of older people, those living in residential care and individuals with underlying health concerns, there are serious questions about the infection control measures, the availability of treatment, support for care providers and the steps being taken to prevent further outbreaks. An urgent statement would provide an opportunity for the Welsh Government to update Members on the current scale and extent of the outbreak in west Wales, measures being taken to contain transmission and protect vulnerable individuals, guidance being provided to care homes, hospitals and community healthcare providers, and whether additional resources or support are being made available to affected areas. Given the significant public concern and the potential implications for public health, I believe that this matter warrants an urgent statement at the earliest opportunity. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising this issue. I do hope that you took the opportunity to write to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care. There are questions to the Minister tomorrow here in the Senedd, and hopefully, you'll have an opportunity to raise these important issues. Let me be clear that patient safety continues to be a full priority for this Government. We expect every health board to have disease control processes in place in order to control cases effectively. I will also ensure that the Cabinet Minister is aware that you raised this issue with me today.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

I'm requesting a Government statement on its tourism strategy. A strategy is not saying that tourism is important to the Welsh economy and that we want it. Which tourism sectors does the Welsh Government think are important? How are they going to target groups? How will they distinguish between day tourists and overnight tourists? I would prioritise active tourism, such as hiking, cycling and golf. The question is can we share golf tourism with Ireland. Has anybody asked? I would also prioritise cultural tourism to eisteddfods and historical buildings, including chapels and churches. But we do need a strategy.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you very much to the Member. I'm pleased that you agree with me that we do need a new culture and sport strategy, which will include a focus on the economy and tourism. I would encourage every Member to engage with that consultation, which is open until 18 December. I'm looking forward greatly to receiving Mike Hedges's comments as we develop that strategy.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Can I call for two statements today, please? The first is from the Cabinet Secretary for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy in relation to the mobile network. Action has been taken in Scotland and England, and they've announced this week in Scotland a consultation on changing permitted development rights in order to address mobile black spots. Given the essential nature of a decent mobile signal now, Wales is falling behind with this important digital infrastructure. We clearly need some action here, and I would be grateful if we could have an update on what action the Welsh Government is taking.

Also, can I call for a statement from the Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary responsible for social justice and equality on the action being taken by the Welsh Government to address antisemitism in Wales? As we all know, tomorrow marks the third anniversary of those barbaric attacks by Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists against Israeli citizens. All of us have condemned those attacks, and what we need to make sure is that Wales is taking appropriate action to address the rise in antisemitism that we've seen in our country since.

One positive action that the previous Welsh Government took, of course, was to recognise the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition of antisemitism, and I'd be grateful if the Welsh Government could reaffirm its commitment to that definition so that we can be sure that the same action will be taken by this new Welsh Government as the previous one in terms of providing some leadership on that issue.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I hope that the Member will have heard the First Minister state unambiguously earlier that we totally condemn any antisemitism. I hope that we can be united as a Senedd on that.

Also, the Deputy First Minister, in her work as Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, has been looking at the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' to ensure that it is fit for purpose, reflecting on what we have seen in terms of the increase in hate of all types, including antisemitism. I will certainly raise your points with her.

In terms of your first point, clearly, digital infrastructure is crucially important; it's important for our economy. I know that this is something that the Cabinet Minister is taking seriously. I will raise the specific points that you made with him and ensure that there is an update on that work.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Trefnydd, in a free society, we show our faces. It's how we recognise each other, it's how we trust each other, it's how we talk to each other. A nurse needs to see their patient, a teacher needs to see their parent at the school gate. For public safety, it's important. Reform's position is clear: we would ban the burqa and every other full face covering in public. Trefnydd, could we please have a statement setting out the Welsh Government's position on this? I know this matter falls outside the Senedd's powers, but if the Welsh Government will be making representations to the UK Government on Wales's behalf, it would be beneficial for this entire Senedd to understand your position on this. Also, feel free to sign our petition on this. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

No, there will be no statement on this issue. As the Member has noted, this is an issue that is not devolved. But could I be clear, as I was in response to Darren Millar just now? This Government condemns all forms of racism, any idea that someone doesn't deserve to be able to live their life in the way that they have the right to live that life. Racism is a great problem in society now, and that's something that constituents tell us consistently. We all have a responsibility in this Chamber to ensure that we do support everyone that we represent, all members of society, and ensure that everyone feels safe, and that we all co-operate to ensure that racism doesn't continue here in Wales. There is no place for racism in Wales.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Minister, can I please request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for health and social care on support for people living with Huntington's disease? Huntington's is a rare neurological condition where symptoms affect thinking and cognitive abilities, as well as movement and behaviour. Symptoms usually develop between the ages of 30 and 50, with life expectancy from diagnosis being just 20 years. Anyone who has a parent with a faulty gene has a one in two chance of having Huntington's themselves. It's a really complex condition, with people requiring support from a number of health and care professionals. There's also a considerable mental health burden, with people often caring for family members whilst worrying about potentially carrying the faulty gene themselves.

Guidance published by the previous Welsh Government makes clear that those with a neurological condition such as Huntington's disease should not be excluded from mental health services. Guidance also calls for co-ordination of care across services, professions and agencies. Too many people say the healthcare service they access does not, in fact, meet their needs. A statement from the Cabinet Minister setting out what action the Welsh Government is taking to ensure that people with this devastating disease get the mental health support that they need and have a health professional to co-ordinate their care would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising an issue that I'm sure a number of constituents have raised with us. I know that it's an issue that's been raised with me in casework. You will have heard me say that the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care has questions tomorrow, so there is an opportunity to raise this at that point. I would also ask the Member, if she hasn't already done so, to write to the Cabinet Minister to ensure that she gets a full response on this issue.

Andrew Griffin (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Trefnydd, could I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health and social care on the operation of the 'Listening to People' NHS complaints process? Constituents have raised concerns with me following their experience of pursuing complaints involving Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The new system places clear requirements on health bodies, including acknowledgement within five working days and a 10 working day early resolution stage. However, concerns have been raised with me about what happens when a patient believes that the health board itself has failed to follow those requirements. Could we therefore have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary explaining how compliance with 'Listening to People' is monitored, what action the Welsh Government can take where a health board is not compliant, and what effective route is available to a patient who believes the complaints process itself has failed? Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising these issues. As you'll have heard me say, the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care has questions tomorrow, but because of the concerns that you've raised and that there are specific examples, I would ask you to write to the Cabinet Minister and raise those specific concerns. Obviously, you haven't disclosed all the information here—it wouldn't be appropriate. But because of the nature of what you've raised, it's important that he does receive those details. You'll be aware that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board continues to be at the highest level of scrutiny and that we are working very hard to ensure that oversight and scrutiny by the Welsh Government are present in order to target necessary improvements in patient care and the provision of services. And so, ensuring that the Cabinet Minister has that information is vital.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Prynhawn da, Drefnydd. Can I ask for a statement, please, on radical reform of services for our care-experienced young people? Back in July 2023, we debated in the Senedd the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report on this subject. Of the committee's 12 radical recommendations, the then Government accepted just one, rejecting—amongst other things—making care experience a protected characteristic and placing corporate duties on a statutory level. In that debate the now Deputy First Minister shared my disappointment that the Government then said it wasn't sufficiently bold, brave or ambitious. So, given that situation, I'd be pleased to hear from Plaid Cymru exactly how they're going to incorporate these issues around radical reform. It hasn't been so far in your statement for government or in your manifesto, but you've had a busy time, so I'm hoping that there will be a focus now on ensuring that our care-experienced young people across Wales get the services that they deserve. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising this issue. Clearly, you will be aware of Plaid Cymru's commitment in terms of what you've outlined. The Deputy Minister with responsibility for this has heard the comments that you have made this afternoon.

Removing profit from the care sector is an issue that we worked on during the co-operation agreement, and that legislation is now in place and we're moving towards implementation during this Senedd term. The previous Government did sign a statement in 2025. As a new Government, we do support the principle of creating a care system that is more focused on families, is based on rights, is trauma informed, is locally rooted and is ambitious for all children, whilst removing profit from childcare and ensuring that no young person leaves care and goes into homelessness also. I do very much hope, given the fact that you will have heard this, Deputy Minister, that there will be an opportunity for you and the Member to discuss this issue further.

Gareth Beer (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

Trefnydd, can I ask for a statement on the Government's plans for improving pre-application consultations for major energy infrastructure developments, including solar farms, windfarms, new pylons and substations? My constituents feel ignored and dismayed. They believe these applications are just tick-box exercises. They tell me that notices intended to inform them are put up in places where they cannot be seen. They say letters arrive so late they have no meaningful chance to respond. To them, it feels like they are being deliberately denied a voice in decisions that will affect their homes and communities. They say they are being treated like mushrooms: fed farmyard manure and kept in the dark. So, Trefnydd, will the Government make a statement on how it will improve pre-application consultations for major energy infrastructure developments and ensure that communities are genuinely heard? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising these issues. There is a clear commitment from this Government in terms of the fact that we are developing a national energy strategy that tackles these challenges and includes communities instead of doing things to communities, which is one of the points that the Member has raised. There will be an update to the Senedd as that work proceeds.

Elwyn Vaughan (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Minister, may I first of all warmly welcome the Plaid Cymru Government's announcement last week regarding the additional £3.4 million for Powys health board to help to reduce waiting times? This investment will make a difference to patients in Powys, where a large number depend on accessing healthcare services across the border in England. Given the vital role that cross-border healthcare plays for people in Powys and along Offa's Dyke, can we have a statement on this, please?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising this issue. I'm pleased that you do welcome this important investment. Certainly, this is something that the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care has committed to. We want to ensure that we do continue to ensure a health service that works for everyone, wherever they are in Wales. Certainly, I will raise with the Cabinet Minister the points that you've raised today.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you. And finally, David Mills.

David Mills (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to ask for a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability on how the Welsh Government intends to turn the lessons from this summer's wildfires and the very real risk of flooding this autumn and winter into investment in rural communities such as those across Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd.

Research has highlighted that measures such as rewetting peatland and better land management can help prevent wildfires, while also slowing water run-off and reducing flood risk. Indeed, the Welsh Government has already committed more than £5 million to natural flood management this financial year. So, could we have a statement setting out how farmers and landowners will be supported to deliver landscape-scale resilience and whether the Welsh Government will use this opportunity to bring much-needed investment and jobs into rural communities like mine?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising issues that got quite a bit of attention, of course, when the First Minister made a statement on this issue some weeks ago, and made those very points in terms of nature-based solutions and the role of farmers too in this regard. And certainly, this is an issue that is at the heart of many of the cross-departmental discussions within this Government.

To be clear, the First Minister leads on resilience, and then individual Ministers, such as the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability, clearly have a role in terms of flooding and so on, and in terms of rural policy and farmers. So, that collaboration is important.

There was a statement made. This was raised at that point as the work was proceeding. Of course, there will be further opportunities for Members to scrutinise, ask questions and have an input into that work.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you, Trefnydd.