Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 15 September 2026

279 contributions from 61 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Welcome back to you all.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Welcome back, everybody.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Let's move on to this afternoon's business, and item 1, questions to the First Minister. The first question is from Gwyn Williams.

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

1. What benefits will come to the residents of Swansea following the establishment of a community public energy company for Wales? OQ64441

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Well, thank you for the question and, as the Llywydd did, I will welcome everyone back after the summer. I understand that it's been a very busy summer for everyone, but I do hope that everyone had an opportunity to relax too.

Our aim in establishing a Welsh public energy company is to make the best possible use of our energy resources as a nation, ensuring that energy becomes more affordable, cleaner, and that more of it is owned by us here in Wales. This will help communities, businesses and public services to make better use of the energy produced in Wales.

On 7 September, we launched a consultation on that, and I look forward to hearing the views of people on how we can better take advantage of Welsh energy for the benefit of communities and people in all parts of Wales.

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

A publicly owned energy company based in Swansea, with a focus on supporting community and local ownership would not just positively impact communities across Gŵyr Abertawe, but also across the wider Swansea bay area. The cost-of-living crisis has impacted many thousands of people in my constituency, made worse, of course, by the closure of the furnaces over in Port Talbot, which is not so far away. Swansea has the second biggest tidal range in the world, and the city's proximity to the electric arc furnace across the bay will be an integral part of our transition to net zero. So, if it is based in Swansea, it would also provide a tangible future of sustainable careers that future generations can look forward to. With these exciting points in mind, will Swansea be considered for the potential headquarters of a community public energy company for Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I congratulate the Member on a shameless, but very, very well meaning and important plug on behalf of his constituents, and I'm sure many of you are thinking along similar lines right now. What the Member does do, of course, importantly, is reflect on the economic challenges in the area that he represents, and we will always, as a Government, seek to create opportunities for innovation and growth and job opportunities in every single part of our nation. And that will be one of the founding principles of the new development agency that we are in the process of establishing.

The proposed new company is built around Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, which is currently headquartered in Merthyr Tydfil. But it also has staff in other areas of Wales, and, crucially, it will be there to serve all parts of Wales and to make gains for communities wherever they are in our nation.

Francesca O'Brien (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

The UK has the highest industrial electricity prices in the world, north Wales paying the highest electric standing charges in Britain, and south Wales, in my constituency, pays above the average. Politicians trying to control the energy market isn't going to fix this. The problem is the cost of net zero, loaded onto working families through their bills. A combination of green taxes and regulations have led us down this path of rising bills and job losses—just look at Port Talbot, for example. So, First Minister, can you confirm that all forms of energy will be supported by this body? Otherwise, how many more Welsh jobs will have to go before this Government admits its net-zero targets are being paid for by the people who can least afford it?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think the point I would make is that high energy prices are not as a result of a pursuit of net zero. They're not as a result of the determination that we must have—every one of us—to tackle the scourge of climate change. And we know the cost of not tackling climate change. We saw it in the wildfires that scorched so much of Wales over this summer. I hope I can persuade the Member that what we should be doing is seeking as much control as possible over how we generate electricity in Wales, how we reap the benefits of those projects in Wales, and having energy devolved to Wales as part of our toolkit as a nation to look after businesses and communities alike.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you very much, and good afternoon, First Minister.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

I welcome the emphasis in the consultation on increasing community energy, and I think it's shameful and shameless of Reform UK to abandon—[Interruption.] It's my job—to abandon and just to sideline net zero. The world is on fire. As the First Minister has said, you just needed to look and see and talk to the communities that we represent over the summer just to see how bad it is.

To get back to the very good point raised by Gwyn in relation to the community energy issues, I was lucky enough to visit Hwb y Gors in the Amman valley, where community-owned wind turbines have paid for the renovation of the community centre there. But it took 10 years to secure planning permission, and we need to make it much easier for our communities to be able to own community energy. So, Prif Weinidog, what will you and the Government do to make sure that we accelerate this, so that, actually, communities can own that community energy and ensure that they see the benefits and we stop the world being on fire? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member is quite right, of course, about the need to accelerate our mission here, to make the most of the natural resources that we have and to take seriously our responsibilities when it comes to tackling climate change. This is what it's about—setting up a new organisation that can move more swiftly, that can look at how to work on commercial projects of a larger scale and with community energy, because it's all going to be in the mix. Climate change, and tackling climate change, is a responsibility for every single Minister in this Government. So, yes, it will involve planning, it will involve the energy Minister, it will involve the housing Minister, and so on. Where is she? She's over there. So, this is something that's owned by all of Government.

The Member is quite right, of course, on Reform. In denying climate change, they are acting against the interests of the people of Wales. In denying or wanting to curtail employment rights, they are acting against the interests of workers the length and breadth of our nation. Reform is not a party that has the interests of Wales at heart in any way, shape or form.

John Clark (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

2. What action is the First Minister taking to support local businesses in the Bangor area? OQ64469

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I welcome this timely question from the Member, on the same day my Government publishes plans to cut business rates by 30 per cent for pubs, restaurants, cafes, bars, licensed clubs, hotels, gyms and cinemas. More broadly, through Business Wales, we provide advice and growth support to businesses. Targeted investment in local infrastructure and funding is helping to revitalise Bangor city centre specifically. We have also established that town-centre taskforce we promised we would as part of our 100-day commitment to drive investment, increase footfall and support local businesses to grow.

John Clark (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Your Government launched the town-centre taskforce in Bangor. Neither of the co-chairs are from the city and no Bangor trader has been named to it. The £654,000 announced that day is for an event space at Storiel, not for the high street, where shops are empty and the pavement is broken by lorries. How does the taskforce actually support local businesses on Bangor high street?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I know very, very well the challenges faced by Bangor high street. It was my high street growing up, and I'm determined that when we look at Bangor, and all the other high streets throughout Wales, we have a clear focus on using all the tools at our disposal to support them. The town-centre taskforce, I remind him, is for all high streets. There has been specific assistance, to the tune of over £600,000, announced for Bangor in recent months, and I don't imagine that that is something that the people of Bangor are unhappy about. But it's always part of a range of measures that we can take as a Government. That announcement today of the 30 per cent cut in business rates is determinedly targeted at helping high streets like Bangor, through supporting those businesses that bring vibrancy, that bring life to those high streets. This is a Government from the get-go that is showing that we are determined to act on the promises that we made, and Bangor, like many other towns the length and breadth of Wales, will benefit from that.

Mair Rowlands (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Small businesses are the backbone of our local economy in Bangor Conwy Môn. A clear example of this in Bangor is Antoniazzi's cafe, which has been a prominent presence on the high street for 92 years now. In recent conversations with a number of businesses recently, the same request often rose, namely a fair deal on business rates, and I look forward to hearing the finance Minister's statement later on this afternoon about that. But does the First Minister agree with me that the Plaid Cymru Government’s commitment to adjust business rates in favour of our independent small businesses will give them the confidence to grow and invest, breathing new life into our town centres in the process?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you for the question. Of course, Antoniazzi's is a well-established business of almost 100 years' standing. What we will see outlined by the Cabinet Minister for Finance this afternoon will be truly significant. SMEs are the backbone of our economy, and we've made it clear, particularly through the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy, that we are determined to support and grow indigenous Welsh businesses and to ensure that successful businesses continue in Welsh ownership, giving them the confidence to invest in their future. The changes to non-domestic rates will be introduced as soon as possible, from the beginning of next year or the next financial year. They will be permanent, which, again, is a step that gives business confidence. I look forward to hearing the details from the Minister later this afternoon.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I thank you, John, for bringing this question, because it's really important that we don't allow Bangor high street to continue suffering as it is. When I was campaigning, and since, residents stated that there just are not enough shops, cafes or restaurants in the area. Now, I welcome the announcement of £654,000 of funding to reinvent struggling high streets in Wales, and in particular in Bangor, but some of the projects are for new street furniture and an amphitheatre. Businesses themselves are concerned as to how they will be involved in the spending. And if anyone's ever looked, when the previous Welsh Labour Government put funding grants into towns, it didn't make any difference whatsoever. Now, I note that I have previously asked, in terms of hospitality businesses, for VAT to come down to 10 per cent, and I'm pleased to say that one of your party members in Parliament is also making that call for VAT on hospitality businesses to drop to 10 per cent. Do you support her calls, and the calls of the Welsh Conservatives, to really help our tourism and hospitality businesses?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It is a call that I have made in the past. What I would say is that we have to engage in what the UK Government could do and balance that against other things that the UK Government could do, because it's the outcome that's important, isn't it? It's not what the measure is, it's how it helps. What I have to do is to look at what I have in my toolkit, and one of the things that we do have are the powers over non-domestic rates. We said that we would use those powers, and we've moved very, very quickly to make sure that we do, with this permanent change, this real vote of confidence in leisure and hospitality—pubs, cafes, things that really bring vibrancy to the high street. So, the UK Government needs to look at its house and see what it can do. We'll put pressure on them to act in a whole host of different ways. We're acting using the powers that we have.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I now call on the party leaders to question the First Minister. First, on behalf of Reform UK, Helen Jenner.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Diolch, Lywydd. Prif Weinidog, despite you repeatedly saying that the election was not about seeking independence, on your first day back from recess you met with the leaders of Sinn Féin and the Scottish National Party to discuss plans to break up the United Kingdom. This is an act for which you have no mandate. Over two thirds of people surveyed recently said that they did not want to see Wales ripped out of the United Kingdom, and this Chamber has a pro-union majority. During the election campaign, you said that you wouldn't be looking to pursue independence, but, clearly, despite there being no appetite for it, you are. First Minister, you recently supported a law to make it an offence for politicians to knowingly mislead the public. So, my question is, to you: did you knowingly mislead voters when you said that this election wasn't about independence?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Do you know what I had a mandate to pursue? What I had a mandate to pursue was the best for Wales, always. So, when I get together with like-minded leaders throughout these islands, looking at how we can work together on childcare, on energy, on the way that we put pressure on the UK Government on funding, I think that that is absolutely standing up for Wales, as the people of Wales put their trust in us to do. And, yes, at the same time, we set our ambition for the nation. I believe that this isn't as good as things can get for Wales. Is Westminster working particularly well for Wales? Two letters and a number: HS2. That's the injustice that we're facing. Is the two-child cap what we really think is in the interest of the people of Wales? And a party like Reform always things that Wales is too small. Where's the ambition? Well, you know what? Matthew Rhys—let's congratulate Matthew Rhys on his historic Emmys win last night and what he said in accepting those two awards:

'We are a small but mighty nation. This is incredible.'

Be more like Matthew.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

First Minister, nobody is talking down the people of Wales. Nobody is talking down Wales here. In fact, the people of Wales have returned a pro-union majority to this Senedd. First Minister, the bottom line is you have no mandate for focusing on independence. What you should be focusing on is fixing our broken NHS and our failing education system. You promised, First Minister, to eliminate two-year waits within months, yet you've moved the goalposts and now two-year NHS waits are up around 60 per cent since you entered office.

And, First Minister, speaking as a former teacher, last week's Programme for International Student Assessment results were quite frankly embarrassing. A third of 15-year-olds in Wales aren't capable of basic maths or reading and are around two years behind their counterparts in England. As a former teacher in Wales, I can tell you that what teachers need are not more plans and reviews, they need action. A generation of youngsters are being failed by Plaid and Labour, and frankly you owe them all an apology. First Minister, will you stop focusing on plotting with Sinn Féin and focus on fixing our schools and our NHS?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I tell you what, Llywydd, if the Member thinks you can only do one thing at a time in Government, she should give up her aspirations right now, because it is all about dealing with a host of issues that are in the interests of building our nation. It is about doing the work that we've done over the summer to pump money into health and to change our attitude on how we bring those waiting times down. It is about the numeracy and literacy strategy that is being published today by my Minister for education. And when it comes to this pursuit of more powers, which Reform absolutely rejects, let's remind the Member that it's because of powers taken on around a decade ago over non-domestic rates that we are now able to make a positive decision to help businesses in Wales through a cut of a third in the rates for businesses in hospitality and leisure. We have our eyes on the future of Wales, and I suggest that the Member opposite does the same.

Helen Jenner (Reform UK, Bangor Conwy Môn)

First Minister, it wasn't really a great summer for Plaid Cymru, was it? You couldn't pass your budget, it failed to put Welsh people first, and then you failed to act in time when we faced those wildfires. Like everything else in Wales, you lost control of it.

Then there was the Government alert we all received. Whose idea was it to send an emergency alert in two separate messages, rather than one bilingual message to avoid confusion? You attended a COBRA meeting with the Prime Minister about all this. The alert was meant to avoid disaster, but in and of itself it created disaster. It sent some people into panic and sent some people to ring 999. Why couldn't it have gone out in one bilingual message? Either you were to blame, or, once again, Westminster was ignoring you and not taking you seriously. Which one is it?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'll tell you what, all the Reform stereotypes are coming out today. There is a UK Government responsibility for the emergency alert. And do you know what, did they get it right? Clearly they didn't get it right. There was a technical issue about the way that it was sent out and that caused anxiety for people. I've spoken with COBRA myself to say, 'You need to sort this out for the future', because this is for the UK Government. But doesn't it say everything about Reform and its attitude towards Wales that your position on this is to blame the Welsh language, which wasn't at fault?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Leader of Welsh Labour, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

Diolch. First Minister, obviously building a progressive alliance means working together in common cause, but signing a memorandum of disunity with those who wish to break up and ruin the United Kingdom will only please people like Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. It will not please the vast majority of people in Wales, including the many health visitors who are here today. Those health visitors feel snubbed by your Government. Those health visitors are questioning the integrity of your Government after being promised an end to their dispute over pay within days of May's election. First Minister, will you please use powers available to you in law to bring an end to this dispute, an end that was promised before the election?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member is right to draw attention to a dispute that causes real frustration. It's certainly something that I feel. It's a dispute that we inherited, of course, from the previous administration. What is clear, as the former Labour First Minister said, is that this is something that can be resolved only by the health service itself. I know the efforts that my health Minister has put into trying to influence the health service to get to that point where we have a resolution. We need this to be resolved for the people served by that health board and for the nurses who want to care for their patients. And I again call today for that resolution to happen as swiftly as possible, because it's not acceptable for this to be pursued this long.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

First Minister, I agree it is not acceptable and health visitors should have had justice within the first 100 days of your Government being elected. Yes, you've inherited this challenge, but during the election many of your Members were telling those health visitors that it would be resolved with direct intervention within days—within days. They now question the integrity of your Government and they say that they voted for your party on the basis of what they now believe was a false promise.

Now, they're not the only people to have been snubbed. Over the summer, a number of organisations, communities and people have been snubbed—you might call it 'summer snubbing'. But it's affected the Prime Minister, it's affected Michael Sheen, it's affected countless communities that were left devastated by the wildfires. All snubbed. But please can I urge you not to snub those who wish to see a £2 bus fare cap introduced in Wales? Andy Burnham has provided you with the consequentials to do so. It was a pledge in Welsh Labour's manifesto, and I do believe that if you implement that policy, it would demonstrate to the people of Wales that common ground that we can occupy to make people's lives better.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

There is quite a lot to unpick in that question. There is a reference there to the need to work in a consensual way. I start this term in the way that I started the first term post election in making it very, very clear that this is a Government that wants to reach out and work in a way that serves the people of Wales in a constructive way. So, I make that point.

We're a Government that hit the ground running with a 100-day plan that we were able to deliver on, setting the foundations for what will be the programme for government to be presented in the very near future. This is a Government that takes seriously the faith put in us by the people of Wales, dealing with many different challenges, because the Member knows governing isn't always easy. It is about prioritising, but the more that we can work together, have clarity in what we are trying to achieve for the people of Wales, well, the better our chances of giving them the outcomes that they deserve. It has been a very, very busy summer of working with many, many partners in making sure that we move forward with real purpose.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

First Minister, yesterday, while you were plotting the break-up of the United Kingdom with your friends in Sinn Féin and the Scottish National Party, there were people waiting for ambulances for too long, people in our emergency departments for too long on trolleys and not getting the treatment that they need in time, because of a lack of hospital beds around the country. Just last week, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales published a damning report into the emergency department at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board's Glan Clwyd Hospital. It cited patients being left in corridors without food or drink or pain relief, out-of-date medicines and equipment not working, and the paediatric area being left unattended while child patients were present. So, instead of hatching plans to break apart the UK, isn't it time that you focused on your day job and showed some urgency to fix our NHS instead?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I reflect today on this cabal of stagnation that Reform, the Conservatives and Labour have when it comes to moving Wales forward. Moving Wales forward and seeking practical answers to our problems means learning from others when it comes to the future of the health service, the future of the education service in Wales, and that's what this Government does. We will find partners where we have common ground always.

On the issues around Glan Clwyd, I absolutely share the concern raised by the leader of the Conservatives. The Cabinet Minister for Health and Care met with the chair and chief executive of the health board recently in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. He set out his expectations of owning issues and making the improvements required by the people they serve. And yet again, we have further examples of those deep challenges facing Betsi Cadwaladr that affect patients, and that is what should affect every single one of us. That is why we have, since the summer, or at the end of the summer recess, published our plans on how we change the NHS's attitudes towards getting people through the system, not being wasteful in the way that we use our resources, because we are determined to act on our promise in this election to make health the No. 1 priority, because I think that’s the No. 1 priority of the people of Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

You say that it's your No. 1 priority, and you say that you want to co-operate with others in order to improve the NHS. I looked very carefully at the declaration that you signed yesterday alongside those other nationalist leaders, and let me tell you, there was no mention of the health service. There was no mention of the national health service in any way, shape or form whatsoever. There was no mention, either, of our education system, and as has already been pointed out, it's hardly surprising, given that we've got the worst education system in the whole of the United Kingdom, and that Scotland's education system is also tumbling down the PISA scores, as is Northern Ireland’s. Why don't you co-operate on the things for which you're absolutely already responsible instead of having these pie-in-the-sky discussions, grandstanding over the constitution of the United Kingdom rather than pulling your finger out and doing the job that the people of Wales elected you to do?

Let me tell you this, First Minister: the honeymoon is well and truly over. While you were sunning yourself on a beach, presumably burying your head in the sand on it, on the 100-day anniversary of your Government, people in Wales were dying in our hospitals and young people were not getting the education they need. When will they see the change rather than the continuity Labour that we've seen so far?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

When will we see a change in the Conservatives from the whingeing that we always hear from their benches on these matters, rather than working constructively? We have an offer here to work constructively, to seek ideas, and that includes from you, as the leader of the Conservatives, on the future of our public services here in Wales.

This Government set out a programme that was given a mandate, not with a majority, but with a clear mandate to deliver for the people of Wales. And that means on health, which is why my health Minister worked so quickly to pump that money in, which will bring down those waiting times as the people of Wales deserve. It’s why we moved quickly to put that national numeracy and literacy scheme in place, which will drive up education standards, because I agree with you: it is scandalous, the way that we have allowed standards to drop here in Wales, with our proud record of educational achievement. We do this at the same time as setting an ambition for having more control over our own future here as a nation in Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Question 3, Adrian Mason.

Adrian Mason (Reform UK, Clwyd)

How to follow that? A declaration of interest: my wife works for Bangor University, Llywydd.

Adrian Mason (Reform UK, Clwyd)

3. What assessment has the First Minister made of the affordability of tuition fees in Wales? OQ64476

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Tuition fees are set by higher education institutions, and eligible students receive loans to meet the full cost of their tuition. The Welsh Government will consider fees alongside the long-term sustainability of higher education itself in our independent review of higher education, and the Deputy Minister for Skills and Tertiary Education will provide further details later this afternoon.

Adrian Mason (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Thank you, First Minister. The figures are clear and unambiguous. England has already set its tuition fee cap at just over £10,000. At the same time, Welsh universities are under severe financial pressure. The sector recorded an underlying deficit of more than £79 million according to Medr, while Bangor University alone reported a deficit of nearly £19 million, alongside redundancies. And the number of Welsh students studying at Welsh universities has fallen by about 9 per cent since 2021, the largest percentage fall of any UK nation.

Universities need certainty if they’re to plan staffing, courses and investment responsibly. They are on their beam ends, quite frankly. So, will the First Minister give the sector some certainty today? Will the Welsh tuition fee cap remain in line with England for the rest of the Senedd term, yes or no, please?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I genuinely appreciate the way that the question has been framed, because I align myself with that description of the fragility of the higher education sector in Wales. It's something that should worry us all for the future of education and learning itself, for the impact that that has on the Welsh economy and research, also on the jobs that are supported by our higher education sector. But of course, we also want to support the students who are the future of those jobs, and those jobs in the sector itself. It is a balance, and what we have said is that we need to find that balance, and I'll remind you what Plaid Cymru, the party I lead, has said throughout: this is something that we need consensus on. This is something that's far too important to be allowed to be used as some sort of political ding-dong, because I hope I'm looking at everybody in this Chamber and seeing fellow Members who want to see our students supported appropriately and our higher education institutions survive and prosper.

On the fees cap, no decision has been announced yet on Welsh tuition fee caps or fee loan support for 2027-28. We're considering how best to support students while maintaining the higher education sector in Wales. That is a balance that we all need to think carefully about.

Sarah Rees (Plaid Cymru, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

First Minister, over the summer, I met with the Open University, who do brilliant work in ensuring education is accessible to everyone, if that's the path that they wish to pursue. Their fees remain below the maximum borrowing amount, simply because if fee rates were too high, the number of students would decline. With almost a quarter of people in Wales living in relative income poverty, the Open University is a fantastic institution through which education, career development and personal growth are viable opportunities. So, I would like to ask how you will ensure that people in Wales have access to higher education without being held back by ever-increasing loans.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It is an issue that potential students are having to reckon with more and more. I was stopped by a young gentleman yesterday who was excited at seeing a politician and wanted a picture. He was studying for a politics, philosophy and economics degree at the Open University and it was working really well for him. He was working still whilst he was doing his degree. We know that the Open University and other providers of part-time courses play an important role in widening access to higher education and supporting flexible learning opportunities. This review of higher education will look at all aspects of higher education, including access to part-time provision.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

First Minister, the Treasury Committee in the House of Commons came forward with a report over the summer that highlighted 28 recommendations to the UK Government, two of which really stood out as very simplistic, but having a big effect. One was around supplying good-quality information to students at the time of accepting their student loan, which you would have thought would be happening already, but isn't happening. And secondly, instead of using the retail prices index, use the consumer prices index, which again would have a significant effect of lowering the interest rates. Would your Government be supportive of adopting these recommendations to make a quick win in a complex field? Obviously, your review is looking at the higher education sector more generally, but students need help today, not in six, 12 or 18 months.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It's not a matter that I have discussed specifically with the Deputy Minister for Skills and Tertiary Education, but it's certainly something that I'm willing to look at and see where our position would be. At the end of the day, I'm really concerned about the impact of the debts that students go into. I have just one student left in our family now, but two ex-students who are living with debt. Many of us either are living with debts ourselves or are parents of those who are, and it's something that really concerns us. In brief, I want every potential avenue to be looked at that could take the pressure off students now or potential students in future. Thank you.

Gareth Beer (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

4. Will the First Minister make a statement on waiting times for cataract surgery in Sir Gaerfyrddin? OQ64456

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

We recognise that people waiting for cataract surgery want treatment as quickly as possible, obviously. That is why we've committed an additional £145 million this year to reduce waiting times, improve access and support clinically led service transformation across Wales. We're also taking forward plans for new surgical hubs, to increase clinical capacity and help more patients receive treatment sooner, including those waiting for cataract surgery.

Gareth Beer (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

Diolch, First Minister. Despite your Government's investment, including the use of higher cost private providers, and the appointment of a Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health, my constituents still face long waits and last-minute cancellations of cataract operations. What long-term action will the Welsh Government take to train more eye surgeons and increase capacity to meet the growing demand from an ageing population, including patients with glaucoma or diabetic retinopathy and those needing regular eye injections to prevent avoidable blindness?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It's one of those areas where you need rapid treatment in order to avoid more permanent damage. We have two ophthalmologists sitting here in the Senedd Chamber who know far more than I do. The Member referenced the bringing in of private providers. That has a role to play. But the big change in emphasis under this Government is not using that as a backstop and instead building up the kind of capacity that can make reductions in waiting times and a smoother passage of patients through the system more sustainable. I'd point to that as being the main element of what we're trying to do here. Details have been provided by the Minister as we've rolled out these new approaches in the first 100 days. I'm confident that that is the kind of long-term thinking that we need.

David Hughes (Reform UK, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

5. Will the First Minister set out a timeline for the introduction of new measures to better protect renters? OQ64467

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'll refer Members, first of all, to my declaration of interest as a shareholder in a company renting out a domestic property.

Strengthening the private rented sector is a priority for this Government. I think we've made that pretty clear; we set it out in my legislative statement on 14 July. Renters in Wales deserve a safe, warm, secure and affordable home and should feel confident challenging poor conditions. Positive change requires good law, and in the first phase of our legislative programme we'll deliver legislation that protects tenants and tackles poor landlords, making renting, hopefully, more secure.

David Hughes (Reform UK, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you. First Minister, we know that immigration increases demand on housing, which, in turn, leads to increased rents. So, can the First Minister confirm that any planned changes to private and social renters' protections will be prioritised for Welsh people over recent arrivals?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As I've pointed out many times in this Chamber, we have many pressures on housing. Those pressures, when we look at the big picture, do not come from recent arrivals from overseas. I think it's important to home in on those facts. But there are pressures, and we will always want to make sure that our housing stock is adequate in numbers, that the housing stock quality is of a decent level, which people should be able to gain confidence from. But also, we need to look at the question of affordability. We have a two-phased approach in terms of legislation, and affordability will very much be a part of our considerations. I've invited Members here to contribute to the development of legislation, and if there's an interest across this Chamber in those affordability issues, let's discuss them.

Zaynub Akbar (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Prif Weinidog, private renting has become increasingly unaffordable, with many households now spending a really unsustainable amount of their income simply on keeping a roof over their heads. Recent Citizens Advice data has shown that some people are spending up to 70 per cent of their income on rent alone. In Cardiff, there are instances of rents more than doubling now, with just two months' notice. As a consequence, homelessness services are facing increased demand, not only because people are being evicted from their homes, but because council support with rent is also insufficient, placing greater pressure on social housing and temporary accommodation. Does the First Minister agree with me that spending more than two thirds of an individual's income on rent is not acceptable, and that limiting annual rent increases is essential?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

You don't have to think very hard to work out the poverty that somebody is driven into in real terms when they have so little of their income left after paying their rent. In terms of the issues that cause that, there's a multitude of them. Supply of homes is one of them, and social housing. That's why we are determined to bring in an extra 20,000 additional social homes by 2030. It's about bringing homes into use that are currently not in use. It's about raising the quality of the housing stock as well.

And then there are things, as I've said, that we can do through legislation. Actively exploring different measures for regulating increases in rent, for example, effectively is really important. We can look at what's happening in Scotland. There are learnings from Catalonia too. It's important that we look at what works well, and also look at potential drawbacks. But significant steps need considerable policy development, evidence gathering, and cross-party and cross-sector engagement, which is why we have outlined our ambition to bring forward that second renters Bill as part of a two-phase legislative approach.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

There's a shortage of housing available for renting. There's an even greater shortage of housing available at affordable rents. The long-term solution is to build more social housing, especially council housing. I have supported rent controls and the return of rent officers for privately rented properties. But we now have a new, very serious problem, Airbnb, which is taking properties out of the private rented sector. This is not a seaside and holiday resort problem only. It is also a problem in cities. What action is the Welsh Government going to take to limit Airbnb in each council area?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member makes a very good point, and it's an international problem. We have seen some big cities take action on Airbnb. We tend in Wales to look at the more popular seaside areas, because that's where the problems are perceived to be more acute. But the Member is absolutely right that this is an issue that can arise anywhere. I (a) agree that it's an issue, and (b) want us to look at all those solutions that can be put in place. Some have been introduced through co-operation between our parties in the last Government—changes that lead to changing behaviour through use of premiums on council tax and so on. But there are also planning changes that we should always be alive to considering, because I agree this is a significant issue. The main purpose of a house, a flat or an apartment is to be a home, and we should always bear that in mind.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the recently published PISA results for Wales? OQ64450

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

These PISA results are, to say the least, deeply disappointing. They underline to me the scale of the challenge that we face. They reinforce this Government’s determination to take a new and rigorous approach to raising standards. We'll be unapologetically ambitious for every learner, setting clear targets, holding ourselves accountable for delivering them, because raising standards has to be a priority. Today, we publish that foundational literacy and numeracy plan that I have previously referenced to accelerate improvement across Wales in every classroom, because our children and families in Wales deserve nothing less.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you for your response, First Minister, but the issues you've outlined are part of the reason why Members in this place and the public at large are so frustrated with your obsessive pursuit of independence when what you should be doing is focusing on these issues in the classrooms to support our children for the best outcomes possible. Wales is falling behind every other UK nation in maths, reading and science, with the gap particularly stark when compared with England. You rightfully want to work with other countries and co-operate and learn from them. Why don't you learn from England as to how they are doing so well with their education outcomes compared with our children here in Wales?

If we're serious about driving up those standards, we have to also address what is happening in our classrooms. We've heard time and time again from Estyn and the teaching unions as to poor behaviour as an issue in our classrooms. We've been clear that teachers need to be properly supported, schools need a stronger approach to discipline, so that teachers can teach and pupils can learn without unnecessary disruption. Given these disappointing PISA results, First Minister, will you accept that improving discipline, supporting teachers and restoring high expectations in our classrooms must be at the heart of any plan to raise educational standards?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Given the importance of education, I'm surprised that he wasted some of his question discussing constitutional issues, frankly. We have a determination as a Government to look to our track record historically as a proud educating nation—one of the first generally literate populations anywhere in the world. That's something that makes me very proud. I was proud to have two parents that were educationalists, two teaching union presidents. I was brought up with the importance of getting education right and giving our children and young people opportunities right there surrounding me at all times.

I'm desperately disappointed at the PISA results. The measures that we are putting in place around numeracy and literacy, supporting teachers, supporting families and children, are all about raising outcomes. I hope that one of the results of that will be increased PISA scores. There's a global downturn in PISA scores, incidentally. Digitalisation and artificial intelligence might be a part of that. But England has bucked the trend and, absolutely, we should be, and we are making plans already to learn from England about what's happening there. My co-operation isn't exclusively with Scotland and Northern Ireland. I point that out—we work with Ministers in UK Government and internationally too, and on this one, it's because we need to raise standards. And the outcome that we need, of course—better PISA scores would be good—would be raised educational standards: numeracy, literacy, the basics, the foundations of successful lives and careers for our young people. That's what we're aiming for, and we're confident that we're putting the building blocks in place.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Now, we're doing well, but at the risk of disappointing some Members, we're going to see how far we can get down the order paper and get to the questions that are here, so—.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We move now to question 7, Elyn Stephens.

Elyn Stephens (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government to ensure that Port Talbot gets a fair share of the UK Steel Fund? OQ64443

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Supporting the steel industry and the communities across Wales that depend on it is a priority for this Government. Ahead of the Prime Minister's recent visit to Port Talbot, the Deputy First Minister spoke publicly about the need for Wales to receive its fair share of the UK Government's steel fund. There was a meeting between the two. That, of course, would help workers and communities through the transition period, and we will continue to make that case as strongly as possible in ongoing discussions with the UK Government.

Elyn Stephens (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Diolch. Prif Weinidog, as you mentioned, the Prime Minister came to Port Talbot last month, promising re-industrialisation and good, secure jobs. The UK's own steel strategy says that Wales is expected to account for around half of the UK's steel-making capacity, yet just days after the Prime Minister's visit, his Government was asked two very straightforward questions: how much of its £2.5 billion steel commitment had been spent or allocated and how much of that had been spent in Wales? It could provide a figure for neither. So, I have to ask the question: what will actually change for Port Talbot since Andy Burnham's visit? And I'm sure I know part of the answer, but will you press him for a firm commitment that Port Talbot receives its fair share of that £2.5 billion?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member is right to voice frustrations about what did or didn't come out of that investment. The purpose of it was changed at one point, but one thing we made clear from our position—we still make it clear from Government—is that we must get our fair share of that. We have taken a massive hit to the steel industry here in Wales because UK Governments took their eyes off the ball and didn't act when they should have done.

Welsh Government will work with companies, UK Government and the national wealth fund, which now has control over that £2.5 billion, to explore how support can be maximised and must be maximised for our steel communities across Wales. Let me be clear, if there is investment being made in the steel sector, UK Government must set out clearly how they plan to support the Welsh steel industry, which is what is important to us here.

James Evans (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

8. Will the First Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is working with Swansea Bay University Health Board to restart fertility treatment at the Wales Fertility Institute? OQ64431

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I know that this will have been a particularly upsetting time for those affected. The immediate workforce issue affecting the service has now been resolved—that's the positive news—enabling planning to start for the resumption of the service, on a phased basis, from 22 September. It is important to note that patients already receiving treatment also were unaffected by the pause and continued their treatment in the usual way. But this has been a difficult time for a number of people.

James Evans (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you for your answer, First Minister. It is positive that the system is being started again, but a lot of those people who said their treatment wasn't affected were actually affected, because if you were waiting for frozen embryo transfer, people were told that their treatment was not starting. So, there was miscommunication there from the health board that did cause a lot of upset for a number of families right the way across the country, because, as you know, that centre covers a huge geographical area, all the way from west Wales, east Wales, south Wales and all the way up to Llandrindod Wells.

First Minister, we never want to be in this situation again, because it is a traumatic time, not just for the mothers and the fathers, but for everyone going through a fertility journey. So, what can the Welsh Government do to make sure there is resilience in this service, to make sure people are not waiting years and years and years—which people are—for their fertility journey, because people have a body clock, and if we cannot get this system started soon enough, a lot of people across this country will never have the families that they hope to start?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

That word 'resilience' is important. We use 'sustainability'. They mean very much the same when it comes to something like this: having services that are stable. In this particular case, the pause was necessary in order to comply with the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority licensing requirement. So, a clinical issue, but the impact, of course, is a very human issue. We will do what we can to build resilience across those services. For the individuals affected here, the health board has now started contacting patients, I understand, to confirm the next steps in their treatment pathway. The Wales Fertility Institute is continuing to work on the wider workforce challenges, working with the joint commissioning committee to explore possibilities for, perhaps, interim support options to comply with those licensing requirements, which are a must; these aren't optional. Work is also ongoing to strengthen, as you say, the resilience and sustainability of the service, both within the health board itself and in conjunction with that relationship that it has with the joint commissioning committee. That work will continue. Yes, there are short-term things to do, but that will continue beyond the short term too.

John Davies (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

9. Will the First Minister provide an update on his discussions with the UK Government on securing fair funding for Wales? OQ64457

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

This Government is committed to pressing the case for a fairer funding settlement for Wales. That means a number of different things. When I met the Prime Minister in Glasgow in July, I emphasised the need for the historic underfunding of Wales to be addressed. On Thursday, we will be hosting the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, bringing together finance Ministers from right across the UK, if that's okay with everyone.

Funding reform is a key priority for the Cabinet Minister for Finance, and in her bilateral meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that day she will raise a number of priorities, which include delivering the £14 billion promise on rail, a formal review of the fiscal framework and the Barnett formula. I will also make this case directly to the Prime Minister when we meet again in October.

John Davies (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

I funded businesses for over 40 years. To succeed, a business needs two things, essentially: the ability to borrow and the ability to save. Running a country is no different. Without the financial tools to construct a functioning economy, Wales will continue to be poor. Is this the Wales that we all want for our children? Wales is being pickpocketed. You mentioned about rail. HS2: we're footing the bill for infrastructure projects in England whilst ours crumble. And why? The Barnett formula gives us less per head than our Northern Irish and Scottish counterparts. Why? Demanding fair funding is not us taking the begging bowl to London, nor is it grievance politics. It's common sense and the bare minimum to stop ingrained, intergenerational poverty, which plagues Wales. It doesn't have to be this way. We have the entrepreneurs, we have the people, the skills and the resources. Wales can be prosperous.

First Minister, following your meeting yesterday with the Ministers of Northern Ireland and Scotland, would you please outline your long-term vision of what a real Government can achieve economically in Wales with the right economic levers?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'm grateful for the question. Right across the UK, we should be—. There is an interest in making sure that when the Treasury makes decisions on spending they are made fairly. It relates to Scotland, it relates to Northern Ireland, it also relates to regions of England. What I will do as the First Minister of Wales, with my team, with your backing here hopefully, is make the case always for us to get that fair funding package.

That does include all those different elements: giving us the borrowing powers; giving us the right to be able to draw down from our reserves; making sure that the overall package under Barnett actually works for us; making sure that where there is a lack of powers—on rail, for example—that that doesn't mean we end up £5 billion out of pocket on HS2. There are fundamental unfairnesses right across the board. The Cabinet Minister for Finance will reinforce those points with the UK Treasury later this week. We look forward to working positively with them in helping them to recognise the value of devolution and giving us the tools to do the job that we're here to do.

Cristiana Emsley (Reform UK, Fflint Wrecsam)

10. What assessment has the First Minister made of the effectiveness of clinical governance and patient safeguarding within NHS Wales? OQ64435

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Strengthening the governance of the NHS is very, very important for my health team and all of us in Government, with actions having already been undertaken as part of the first 100 days plan. This includes ensuring patients have full confidence that concerns will be heard, that they'll be investigated quickly and used, crucially, to improve care. A new national clinical governance framework to improve clinical governance across NHS Wales will be published early in 2027, bringing together those issues of safeguarding, patient safety, quality improvement and organisational learning to support safer services and greater accountability too.

Cristiana Emsley (Reform UK, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you. The Welsh Gender Service has been subject to an independent clinical review because NHS Wales commissioners identified concerns about the appropriateness of referrals and the robustness of clinical governance and patient safeguards, yet 26 of your own backbenchers have publicly objected to the clinically led pause. There is not a modicum of evidence that this Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru have demonstrated that patient safety comes before ideology. So, if the independent review concludes that the Welsh Gender Service's current assessment process must fundamentally change or that some referrals should not have proceeded, will you guarantee—'yes' or 'no'—that your Government will accept the clinicians' conclusions in full, without political interference from Ministers, backbenchers or campaign groups, even if those conclusions are politically inconvenient? 'Yes' or 'no'?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

We've made it very, very clear that, yes, this will be judged on clinical evidence. That's what this is about. This hasn't been about Ministers making decisions, this has been the joint commissioning committee. There's a real irony, though, isn't there, about this throwing of an accusation of behaving in an ideological way when we have extreme ideology from the Reform benches here, not interested at all in the anxiety caused by this pause in services for some very, very vulnerable people, many of whom have been ably represented by Members of my party and, no doubt, others too.

Let's remember who is at the heart of issues like this—people who are feeling that they are paying the price for the failure of a health system. What we need to make sure is that we have a review to understand exactly what has happened based on clinical evidence. That's what everybody wants to see happening, whilst supporting the trans community in the process.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

11. What support did the Welsh Government provide to schools to deliver the Curriculum for Wales during its first 100 days in office? OQ64475

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

In our first 100 days, our national support programme for curriculum and assessment design has provided expert coaching and learning through national events to, I understand, over 250 schools and 340 practitioners across Wales. We have committed to reviewing the curriculum for Wales so that we can be clear that it ensures every learner benefits from high standards and excellent teaching always.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

First Minister, relationships and sexuality education, RSE, is mandatory for every learner aged three to 16, and, bizarrely, no Government opt-out is available for parents wishing to withdraw their children. That places an exceptional duty on your Government to ensure it is delivered consistently, sensitively and by properly trained staff. Yet Estyn's review found limited specialist development, lower staff confidence in teaching sensitive aspects of RSE and inconsistent local authority support, while schools remain responsible for designing their own RSE curriculum within the Government's mandatory code. If RSE is too important for parents to opt out, surely the Government cannot opt out of its duty. Estyn's findings represent a serious failure to fulfil that duty. The Government's failure to fulfil its duty to parents and children needs immediate rectification. As you cannot guarantee consistent provision, will you give responsibility back to parents to allow an opt-out, particularly for very young children?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think it's always important, where there are contentious issues or issues of concern to parents, that they are given reassurance at all times. The first thing to say is that whilst, yes, RSE is mandatory for three to 16-year-olds, it's not the same relationship and sexuality education for pupils from three to 16. RSE is legally required to be developmentally appropriate. That is the point—helping our children and young people through their lives, at the right time, to learn about the world around them, the relationships that they have with others. It must be factual. It must be pluralistic. It means that schools must present a range of views held in society, not push a particular view. These are the reassurances that are important for parents to hear, and the Government will always make sure that the information is available to them. If not, we'll up our game.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

And finally, First Minister, question 12, Lis McLean.

Lis McLean (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Congratulations on getting to the end of the question list. It's incredible. Thank you.

Lis McLean (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

12. Will the First Minister provide an update on the support the Welsh Government is providing to the third sector? OQ64471

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

[Inaudible.]—question 12, you don't prepare.

Lis McLean (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I honestly didn't expect it. [Laughter.]

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It's a lesson. [Laughter.] In 2026–27, we are providing £9.1 million to Third Sector Support Wales, helping organisations access support on volunteering, governance, sustainable funding and engagement.

The voluntary sector and volunteers themselves will be critical in delivering the Government's priorities. This will include preventative healthcare, tackling child poverty, providing access to childcare, play provision, supporting young people into work. It's a long list.

Lis McLean (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you very much. When I worked in the third sector before coming here, I was fortunate enough to be part of consultations on community policy by the Building Communities Trust, and I have to say that that consultation with our communities was excellent, and I felt that I'd really had an opportunity to have an input into that. Can you just confirm that the Welsh Government will listen to that important input that communities have provided to that consultation?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I am very happy to confirm that. When we look across the range of the Government's work, we're looking at partnership. All of the ideas and all of that understanding doesn't just come from the Government's benches; it comes from engaging with others and listening to what works well, what doesn't work well, and what the frustrations or barriers are and so on.

When it comes to voluntary action, that includes all of our communities, and it's important that we do show that we are always a Government that listens. That doesn't always, of course, mean being able to give people exactly what they're asking for, but what you're looking for is that understanding from communities—and through that, voluntary organisations—about why we make the decisions that we make, and that they are always intended to be decisions that support community engagement in every way that we can.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. We got through quite a few questions there. My apologies to those I wasn't able to call, but we got a lot of questions in there, so diolch yn fawr iawn.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We will now move on to item 2, the business statement and announcement. And I call on the Trefnydd, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you, Llywydd. You will see that there are a number of statements that have been added to today's agenda. Following a request in the Business Committee today, the First Minister's statement has been extended to 60 minutes rather than the 45 previously stated. Draft Plenary business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to all Members electronically.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you very much. Llŷr Powell.

Llŷr Powell (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Diolch, Lywydd. Trefnydd, may I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability on historic PCB dumping in Wales? In my own constituency, toxic waste was dumped in the Ty Llwyd quarry in Ynysddu, and, decades later, there's no formal determination that the site is contaminated land, and nothing has been published on the long-term plan, despite the fact that PCBs have been found on the site.

Last week, Michael Sheen told Parliament that the First Minister didn't take him up on his offer, but I know that Members here would be grateful if the Government could provide us with an opportunity to find out what plan the Welsh Government has for dealing with toxic waste dumping across Wales, because constituents of all of us have been living with this for too long now.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

May I thank the Member for raising this important issue? I should state that I, for many years, have been involved with constituents in my own constituency in dealing with this issue, and I continue to do that as an individual Member. I'm sure that each and every one of us who saw that documentary, Buried, if they weren't aware of this previously, will have been shocked by the impact that this has had. And certainly, as you heard the First Minister stating earlier, in terms of Michael Sheen too, there will be further discussions happening. But this is a problem that has been known for a while and many people have been campaigning for many years. It is important that we as a Government do tackle and address this issue, and I'm pleased to be able to confirm that it is a priority of ours. We are now developing a pan-Wales strategy to restore post-industrial land, so that communities no longer face those possible risks. And I would ask every Member who has examples in their own constituency to become involved in that work with us.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Prynhawn da, Weinidog. Can I thank the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability for the statement he issued during recess on the issue I raised previously regarding pollution in the River Tawe? Constituents continue to contact me, raising concerns regarding the need to tackle pollution in our rivers, seas and lakes. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister would provide us with an update on the creation of the new Welsh water regulator, in giving Wales greater control over how our water and natural resources are managed and regulated. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising an issue that's very important for many of our constituents and for many Members here. I would like to remind all Members that the Green Paper, 'Shaping the Future of Water Governance in Wales', which responds to recommendations made by the Independent Water Commission, has now, and that consultation, concluded. A summary of responses was published on 14 September, so very recently. We are considering the evidence and the views expressed carefully before making a decision on the next step of reform. Our aim, of course, is to ensure a regulatory framework that complies with the requirements of Wales, strengthens accountability and supports better outcomes for customers, communities and the environment. We will of course update all Senedd Members as that work proceeds.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Trefnydd, can I ask for a statement from the Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy on the funding of the Jobs Growth Wales+ programme? I've been made aware of some significant funding pressures in the programme, affecting, in particular, year 11 school leavers. Now, while this is part of the employability policies, it is part of the landscape of post-16 education and training. I know you'll agree with me that it's absolutely crucial that we support all young people to prevent them from becoming NEET—not in education, employment or training. I would welcome a statement from the Cabinet Minister setting out the funding position and details of any pressures. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you very much. Evidently, what the Member raised is an issue that is discussed regularly by the Cabinet. This is a priority for all of us as elected Members, I would hope. Certainly, I will make the Cabinet Minister aware of your request. We will of course be updating the Senedd in terms of the work that's proceeding as well.

David Mills (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

I'd like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on education provision in mid Wales in light of the release of the latest Programme for International Student Assessment results. These results should be a wake-up call for the Welsh Government. Wales is the worst-performing nation in reading, mathematics and science, and, this year, Welsh pupils fell even further behind their peers across the UK and internationally. Those national failures are reflected locally, with Estyn judging Powys County Council's education services to be causing significant concern. While confidence in state education is declining, Labour's VAT raid on private schools has forced the closure of seven Welsh independent schools in the past year alone, driving a further divide and an increase in education inequality. Since the Welsh Government's election in May, there's been very little action on state education. So, when will the Government change course? Can the Minister commit to prioritising a genuinely results-driven approach, where success is measured by whether Welsh children are actually achieving better outcomes?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising this issue. I don't know whether you were in the Chamber to hear the First Minister's response and have had an opportunity to see that there is a statement later this afternoon by the Minister with responsibility for education on the publication of the foundational literacy and numeracy plan. I think that the First Minister's statements were unambiguous about this how we consider these results, and, of course, I would encourage every Member, if there are specific issues within your constituency that are causing you concern, to engage with the Minister for education directly.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Welsh Government on the availability of non-emergency hospital transport. I've received significant representations from constituents over the summer who have been left without transport to take them to important hospital appointments. Now, some of my constituents have had their transport cancelled at very short notice and, as a result, they've had to spend a small fortune on taxis to get them to their appointments. Now, some of these constituents, as you can imagine, are elderly, with limited mobility and little support. And, as I'm sure you can imagine, these cancellations have left many patients frustrated, anxious, and, quite frankly, this is not how the Welsh NHS should be operating in the twenty-first century. Therefore, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care on the performance of patient transport across Wales so that we can understand what the Welsh Government is doing to improve this vital service.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, may I thank you as a Member for raising this important issue? I'm terribly sorry to hear about that impact on your constituents. We're also aware of what that means in terms of missed appointments, with many people having to wait a long time for such appointments. Certainly, I will make the Minister aware of what you've raised this afternoon. I do hope that, if you do have specific examples too, that you raise those with the health board directly, and certainly with the Minister too. So I will feed that back to him following this session.

Elwyn Vaughan (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

As has already been referred to, you'll be aware that a documentary titled Buried was broadcast over the summer, looking into allegations around the burying of PCBs, toxic chemicals that don't break down but build up in the environment, animals, fish and people over time. These chemicals were buried in at least 12 sites in Wales, including near Ruabon, Cefn Mawr and the Llwyneinion toxic lagoon near Rhos, which is a terrible site, to say the least. It claimed that the chemical company Monsanto, which produced 98 per cent of all PCBs in the UK, dumped, and I quote,

'huge amounts of industrial chemicals all around Wales'.

This is one of the worst examples of large international corporations taking advantage of our communities. In light of this, could the Minister share a statement with us about this unsatisfactory situation?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, thank you for raising this. The fact that you're the second Member to do so does demonstrate how much concern there is. A local authority survey held by NRW noted in 2015 that there were over 9,000 possible sites that need further investigation. Although not every one of those sites poses a risk to human health or the environment, this figure does show the scale of the problem facing regulators in Wales. As you heard earlier, tackling contaminated land is a key priority of this Government, and we will be developing a pan-Wales strategy to restore post-industrial land so that communities aren't facing possible risks. We, as I also reached out to Llŷr Powell, would ask you and every other Member that is concerned about this issue to work with us as a Government.

Sarah Edwards (Reform UK, Sir Gaerfyrddin)

Trefnydd, I would like to call for a Welsh Government statement that clearly outlines how it will balance its renewable energy objectives. Parts of my constituency are deeply affected by large-scale windfarm developments. I have written questions on this issue and I note your manifesto commitment for undergrounding. I wish to put on record my constituents' huge ongoing concerns about the visual and economic impact of wind turbines. The impact of extensive windfarm developments on Wales's natural landscape could be potentially catastrophic. As part of that statement, will the Government also include a comprehensive impact statement examining the economic, environmental and social consequences of planned wind energy developments across Wales? Such an assessment would help provide transparency on the long-term implications for rural communities, tourism and energy infrastructure. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

The Member will have heard previous statements by the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy. As the work proceeds, there will, of course, be further updates to the Senedd and an opportunity for Members to scrutinise and provide further input on the matter.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Prynhawn da, Drefnydd. I'd like to request a statement, please, on the future of community hospital services in Powys. Earlier this month, Powys Teaching Health Board published proposals confirming the scale of change that's now on the table. Hospitals from Ystradgynlais to Llandrindod Wells could lose their in-patient beds entirely, leaving Powys with as few as 60 physical health beds across just two hospitals. Minor injury units and x-ray services would also disappear from several sites. You cannot plan healthcare for Powys as though we were in an urban area with another hospital only 10 minutes away. Geography matters for our population, which is ageing, as well. Families' ability to reach loved ones also matters, particularly those needing palliative care. There's also a serious question about the consultation itself, with the option of protecting our existing network of community hospitals discounted before residents even had a chance to respond. May I ask you what the Welsh Government would do to intervene and stop these proposals? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising this issue. It's important to note that the health board hasn't made any decision on its clinical services plan. They are still developing that plan and possible options, before a proposed consultation later this year. So, I would hope that those points have been raised directly with the health board too. As with any change in services or strategy development, the Welsh Government expects health boards to engage openly with people in a transparent manner, in accordance with national guidance. The Welsh Government also expects the health board to make any decision based on evidence, supported by a robust options evaluation and impact assessments to ensure that the future of these services is sustainable, fit for purpose, which is the point that you made, and safe for the local population. Given that this work is ongoing at the moment, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further.

Marc Jones (Plaid Cymru, Fflint Wrecsam)

We've already heard about historic dumping from my colleagues here today. I want to ask the Trefnydd for a statement about ongoing illegal waste dumping taking place across Fflint Wrecsam. Unlawful waste dumping has been taking place in at least 16 sites across the constituency, centred on locations in and around Coedpoeth. Natural Resources Wales has the powers, under section 59 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, to address unlawful waste disposal and require remediation. However, despite enforcement action reportedly being taken by NRW to date, residents remain deeply concerned about the situation and about the apparent lack of progress in halting the dumping and protecting the surrounding environment. How is the Welsh Government working with NRW to help tackle this issue and its impacts on local communities?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you for raising this issue. You're talking about issues that are going on now, evidently, and I will make the Cabinet Minister aware of your comments. I'd also ask you to make him aware of these sites so that we can explore this issue further. We have been pressing for environmental justice by raising directly with the Treasury how important it is to have UK Government funding to strengthen our joint efforts to tackle the legacy of Wales's industrial heritage, including restoring coal tips and contaminated land. It's important also that local authorities and NRW do proceed with that regulatory role. So, I will take this further with the Minister. Diolch.

James Evans (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Trefnydd, I'd like to bring forward a health statement from the Cabinet Minister for health on a similar issue to what Jane Dodds raised, actually, about what the Minister can do to intervene in Powys health board's plans to close hospitals and beds across our constituencies. We all know a consultation is not a referendum as well, and it does need to follow robust evidence. But one thing we hear time and time again is that Ministers cannot intervene directly in health boards. So, I'd be interested if the health Minister could bring forward a statement on how the law can be changed to give Welsh Ministers the powers to intervene directly in health boards. That's something I would support, and I'm sure a lot of my colleagues would do the same, so that Ministers are actually accountable for the things that they talk about in this Chamber and can't just pass the buck back to to the health board all the time. So, a statement on that would be very welcome.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, thank you for raising that issue. I don't know if you have raised that directly with the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, as the spokesperson, in relation to this issue. I know that the Minister is eager to be meeting with Members of all parties and I would encourage you to have those direct discussions. In terms of what is happening now in Powys, you will have noted my response to Jane Dodds earlier. But in terms of what can happen for the future, I think that is a further discussion for Members to be having, and I will also make the Cabinet Minister aware of the issues that you've raised this afternoon.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Trefnydd, you will be aware that 21 October will mark 60 years since the Aberfan disaster, in which 144 people were killed, including 116 children. It was incredibly moving to be at the launch of a new photographic exhibition to mark this anniversary at Cyfarthfa museum last week, and it was good to see you there also. The Aberfan disaster rocked the communities that we represent and, as the first major disaster seen through the lens of a television camera, it truly reverberated around the world. The depth of the grief felt by the bereaved and the psychological burden borne by survivors is something that is impossible for us to truly comprehend in this Senedd. But I believe that this Senedd needs to pay tribute to the dignity and strength of the community, which has been so apparent as the people of Aberfan have come together to make arrangements to mark this sixtieth anniversary. So, Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a debate in Government time to mark the significance of this event.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, thank you, Vikki, for raising such an important issue. Aberfan, as you say, is a name of a place that people know internationally for all those devastating reasons that you've outlined there. We share a constituency and, as you noted, I was at that launch with you to meet survivors of that tragedy, but also to meet parents who lost children that day who remain with us today. It's important that we remember that long-lasting impact on communities that will be felt for generations to come. In terms of the sixtieth anniversary, I know that we as a Government will take that time to reflect and we do intend to bring a statement forward at that time.

Steven Rodaway (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

I requested a statement on support for businesses that could be facing the loss of a professional rugby region. The Minister's answer to my written question confirms that the Welsh Government has undertaken no assessment of the economic or community impact, which I find surprising. The justification: the WRU is independent. That does not release this Government from its responsibility to the Welsh economy, businesses and hospitality sector. What is the Government offering the pubs, cafes, hotels and suppliers who stand to lose revenue? They have not bothered to assess the potential damage to local businesses, but perhaps the failure of Plaid's budget and the quest for independence have proved too much of a distraction. The Government did ask the WRU to consider the consequences, but this seems an inept response from an administration that is responsible for the Welsh economy. When will this Government undertake an impact assessment and explain what support businesses can expect, dependent on the final decision? These businesses deserve preparation and leadership. It seems this administration offers neither. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, I would draw the Member's attention to the statement that will be made later today in terms of the support as regards business rates for a number of the businesses, and so forth, that he referred to. I don't know whether the Member knows the result of the WRU's review. Certainly, I don't know. In terms of making a case study, clearly, the two local authorities have made case studies. I've raised those concerns directly with the WRU, which has conveyed to us—. I have a number of questions tomorrow about rugby and the future of rugby in Wales, when I take questions as Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport. Certainly, I think that any meeting that I've had with the WRU has left them under no illusions about the strength of feeling among Members in this Senedd who represent those regions, and the strength of feeling in our communities, and the genuine concerns that exist about the economic impact and the impact in terms of social cohesion—impacts of all kinds. So, that has been unambiguous in terms of what I've conveyed and what this Government has conveyed at every opportunity we've had. I will look forward to having more questions on this tomorrow.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care on the high number of operations that are now being cancelled due to delays in patients passing the pre-operative assessment clinic assessments. This has been raised with me at a very senior level within the Betsi Cadwaladr health board. Clinicians are reporting that four to five operations a day are being cancelled in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, despite being fully staffed, despite having the consultants there ready, waiting to do the operations. This means that a normal operating day that often runs from nine to five are seeing some surgeons finishing the day at 11 a.m. It has been noted that a main cause of the delay is due to staff sickness, but the real truth is that admin staff are not being able to book POAC appointments at present without having to go to senior management for an approval to book the POAC. This includes cancer surgery, which means now that cancer patients are waiting considerably longer for their operations that the consultants are wanting to do. At a time when waiting lists are high and there are promises from your Government to get those waiting lists down, will you ask the Cabinet Minister to make a statement on those claims that I've made here today to ensure that the delays that are currently in existence now are seen to and dealt with immediately? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, I very much hope that the Member has written to the Cabinet Minister—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Just hang on a second. I need to get my—

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I'm sorry.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I did ask the question in English.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Yes, and we have two languages here, so I will use the Welsh language to reply to your question. Thank you. Is the interpretation working for the Member now?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It is now, yes.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Excellent. Thank you very much. I very much hope that the Member will have taken the opportunity to write to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, providing the evidence that she's outlined here this afternoon, and also providing that evidence to the health board. It's crucially important that that information is available to us so that we can act, so I would ask you to do that.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Sorry, I can't hear it properly.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Trefnydd, would you try again, if you could?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Is there a problem with the interpretation?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I think there's a problem with the—. Is there a problem, Janet? Can you hear?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Can we confirm whether there is a problem with the interpretation?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

You can hear now, Janet. It seems to be working now.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Sorry, are you asking me to repeat my answer?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Yes, if possible.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Okay, I'll do that. What I asked of the Member, given the nature of the issue that you've raised, and the gravity of it, and the fact that you said that you have evidence of this, is that I do hope that you will have written to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, and also to the health board, providing that evidence, because, certainly, we need to see action if you do have that evidence.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, Trefnydd. And finally, Jason O'Connell.

Jason O'Connell (Reform UK, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Diolch, Drefnydd. I'd like to request a statement from the Deputy Minister for Transport following the deeply concerning rise in the number of people killed or seriously injured on Welsh roads. Now, every one of these statistics represents a person, a family, in some of those cases, a life tragically lost, so this deserves a serious response. Three years ago, the Welsh public were told that introducing a default 20 mph limit would make our roads safer, yet, last year, the number of people killed or seriously injured on our roads was the highest since before the pandemic. Now, this should force this Government to confront some difficult realities. Labour introduced this policy, Plaid Cymru backed it, millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has been spent implementing it, businesses and motorists have carried the consequences, yet these figures should concern every single one of us. Now there needs to be a proper assessment of what has worked, what has failed and, most importantly, what needs to change.

Trefnydd, residents across Wales deserve a road safety strategy based on evidence and results, not ideology. They deserve dangerous roads, junctions and accident black spots to be properly identified and tackled. They deserve investment, targeted where it will actually prevent serious accidents and save lives. And above all, they deserve honesty about whether the policy they were promised would make them safer is actually working. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Can I be very clear that every death on our roads is a tragedy, and road safety remains a priority for this Government? I also would think that the Member would not wish to mislead the public, because the data does show that collisions were 22 per cent lower than in 2022, the most recent full calendar year before the change in default speed limits was implemented. There was a 2 per cent increase in 2024, but may I just emphasise this is the second lowest annual number recorded in Wales, with the lowest being in 2024?

We will always keep every policy under review. That is good government. But I think we also need to look at the statistics and be honest with people in terms of really understanding the impact of a policy over a longer term, which was always the case with this. But I would ask the Member to reflect on the actual data and what it stands for, and be careful in how we present that data.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the First Minister: Weather, wildfires, drought and resilience

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We'll now move to item 3, statement by the First Minister: weather, wildfires, drought and resilience. And I call on the First Minister, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. Over recent weeks, we have seen first-hand the impact of our changing climate. This summer has been the hottest on record. Wildfires and droughts have left their mark on communities across Wales. They have affected families, farmers and landowners. They have harmed wildlife and damaged precious habitats. They have placed extraordinary demands on our firefighters and emergency services. Our thoughts are with everyone affected.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Today, I want to place on record the thanks of the Welsh Government—and, I believe, the whole Senedd—to everyone who responded in such difficult circumstances, including our firefighters, emergency responders, the armed forces, public services, volunteers and local communities themselves. So, diolch. I know many of us will have seen the remarkable efforts to protect lives, homes, livelihoods and our natural environment. The professionalism and commitment represent public service at its very best.

Wales responded with courage and with a strong sense of community, but these fires also carried a warning that we must not ignore. Our climate is changing. The risks are changing with it and Wales must be ready. We now face flooding this winter. The United Nations is warning of the impacts of a supersized El Niño.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

These risks are connected. Climate resilience cannot be the concern for one service, or one part of public services, one organisation or one part of Government only. It is a shared national priority. That's why we have started work on Wales's first climate and nature action plan, which reflects the need for a cross-Government response to a complex set of challenges. We take this responsibility seriously.

From the start of the first wildfire in July, we gave our full support to the fire and rescue services and to wider partners responding to the incidents. We activated the emergency management arrangements of the Welsh Government to provide strategic support. We convened the Wales civil contingencies committee to support co-ordination, and worked alongside the multi-agency co-ordinating groups led by the fire and rescue services.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Those standard, long-established arrangements brought together fire and rescue services, Natural Resources Wales, the military and other partners too. They enabled decisions to be taken quickly, resources to be co-ordinated effectively, and support to be directed to the places where it was needed most. Crucially, operational decisions remained with those who had the expertise and direct knowledge of conditions on the ground.

Our firefighters are among the best trained in the UK to tackle wildfires. Only a few months ago, at the UK Government's request, they helped train their English counterparts. Through using natural firebreaks, creating new firebreaks and targeted offensive firefighting, they deployed the ground-level tactics that remain the most effective method of tackling the fires. Their hard work, expertise and professionalism ensured all outbreaks were successfully and safely contained.

Where additional support was required, it was successfully mobilised through mutual aid arrangements across Wales and England. These arrangements provided access to specialist personnel, equipment and appliances, while helping individual services maintain operational resilience. And we should not forget the many farmers and landowners who made their time and equipment freely available to support the firefighting effort.

The military also played an important role, and I thank army personnel for their contribution. Military assistance can only be used as a last resort when civilian responders have considered all other options and request military aid. That test was met on 14 August and we rapidly responded following the request from South Wales Fire and Rescue Service on the afternoon of 13 August. We processed and authorised it at pace, with military support on the ground in under 24 hours—an exceptionally fast response.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Understandably, there has been considerable interest in the use of helicopters and wider aerial support, and aerial support can be valuable in particular circumstances, but it forms only one part of a wider response. It is not a panacea. Its use depends on the location of a fire, weather conditions, availability and the assessment of operational commanders. Ground-based tactics remain central to tackling wildfires safely and effectively.

Aerial support was used when it was available and operationally appropriate. However, suitable aircraft across the UK were limited at that point, particularly as wildfires affected many parts of the UK at once. The armed forces do not have aerial firefighting capacity in the UK, and commercial capacity was wholly insufficient to meet the level of UK demand.

This is not an issue for Wales alone. It requires serious consideration and co-ordinated action across the UK, and I raised this issue when I attended the COBRA meeting on 12 August.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

In an emergency, Government must act quickly, must act calmly and decisively, and that is what we did. But responding to an emergency is only part of our responsibility. We must also learn and strengthen our readiness for the future. The Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning chaired an immediate operational debrief with responders on 8 September, to help understand what worked well, what could be strengthened and what additional capabilities or arrangements may be required. We do not claim to have all the answers, and Government cannot do this alone.

Together we must strengthen the resilience of our land, our infrastructure and our public services. Prevention must be at the heart of our approach. It's important that we recognise the role we all need to play. The reality is that human activity is the main cause of wildfires. Climate change has increased the fuel, but the spark comes from us. This ranges from deliberate criminal acts through to accidental ignition, as simple as a piece of glass magnifying the rays of the sun or a disposable barbecue setting a hillside alight. Everyone therefore has a part to play in reducing risk, acting responsibly and following emergency service advice.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Individual responsibility is only part of the answer, and we must consider land management, infrastructure resilience, public services preparedness and the support available to communities before, during and after extreme weather events. That is why climate action is a Cabinet-level responsibility that cuts across every Government portfolio. We have committed to publishing a climate risk assessment that is regularly updated. This will provide greater transparency about the risks that Wales faces, the action being taken, and the areas in which further progress is needed. This will support the development of our climate and nature action plan, bringing together action across Government on prevention, preparedness and long-term resilience.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

On 22 October, I will convene the Wales climate change and resilience summit, focusing on wildfires. It must be focused on practical action. It will provide an opportunity to learn from the recent wildfires, examine the role of land management and consider the steps needed to reduce the likelihood and consequences of future incidents. The reality is that Wales needs to prepare for the combined risks of our changing climate and ensure that our communities and public services are ready. We cannot prevent every wildfire or every extreme weather event. We can, though, reduce the risks. We can prepare more effectively. And when emergencies happen, we can respond quickly and decisively. Recent weeks have shown us the scale of the challenge. They've also shown us the strength of Wales. They have demonstrated the professionalism of our emergency services and the strength of our communities. We will build on that strength. We will learn from what has happened. And we will take the practical action needed to protect the people, communities and natural environment of Wales, now and for the generations that follow.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Good afternoon, First Minister, and diolch for your statement. Unfortunately, like the rest of your 100-plus days of Government, your response to this emergency was nothing but a complete let-down, and your lack of action since has been an enormous disappointment, causing anguish amongst farming communities across Wales. Your statement screams of 'too little, too late' and begs the question of whether this Government is truly fit for purpose and knows what it's doing. But what is clear is that our farmers deserve better.

I'd like to take a moment to pay tribute to our firefighters and our armed forces personnel who came to our rescue and stood beside our hero farmers, which you do not mention in this speech, who worked day and night—[Interruption.]—who worked day and night to try and contain those fires. However, firefighters felt ill-prepared to deal with the very specific fire that is a peat fire, with apparent calls by the Fire Brigades Union for an emergency summit, which went unnoticed. You yourself, First Minister, didn't attend a COBRA meeting until 12 August, when fires had already been burning for weeks. This crisis has exposed a Government that is not prepared for emergencies whatsoever. The question needs to be asked as to why it took so long to react to the wildfire outbreaks. Why didn't you have more input to ensure that the alert message was bilingual? Those first few hours were crucial, and this Government's failure to act has cost our nation not just a hefty financial cost, but also cost us dearly in an environmental context. It wasn't until 14 August that the military assistance was requested, at which time there were 30 incidents being dealt with across our nation. The list is long. There's just one thing after another, which shows this Government's incompetence.

I'm holding in front of me a map that your Government produced, which shows major incidents in Wales, yet it doesn't even include the Blorenge common, which you stood on hours after I did. You saw the devastation with your own eyes. You know that it was the longest burning fire in the whole of Wales. You called in your armed forces to help there, you called in fire services from all over the country to help there, yet your office produces a map that doesn't even include it. There was no help and no aid for the first important hours there, so instead farmers and landowners were throwing themselves onto the front line, risking their lives with no help. If they on Blorenge mountain weren't included on that map, I really would like to ask you, First Minister, what criteria would make them be declared a major incident?

Now, let's look at what we do know. Bad agricultural policy over the last three decades has done nothing but fuel this crisis. The question on everyone's lips is: First Minister, will you be able to bring that lot behind you to do what is necessary? We need to revert agricultural policy back to common sense and proven farming methods that prevent fires.

It is abundantly clear that the climate-change-obsessed, extreme environmental lobby has dominated policy in Wales for three decades, resulting in the devastation that we've seen over the summer. Livestock have been killed, habitats destroyed and carbon-capturing peatlands lost for decades. We need firebreaks. We need fire ponds, as you've just admitted in your own speech. They are the most effective way of tackling fires in our uplands. We need more livestock on our uplands, not less. They are the natural firebreak makers. We need to control rampant bracken. It's absolutely essential. It's turning our mountains into a tinderbox. Where it can't be eaten, where it can't be safely burned or rolled, we need a way to manage it. First Minister, can you assure us today that you will do all in your power to reduce these fuel loads, create those firebreaks, which you admit are needed, and accelerate new technology to get bracken under control, alongside ensuring that the sustainable farming scheme does everything within it to support our farmers in the rehabilitation of these lands, as they will play an instrumental part in bringing them back?

I've spoken to farmers north and south only this morning who have had complete radio silence from this Government. Where is that support? It's just not good enough. You've announced two summits, but I'm baffled as to why our farmers and commoners won't be sat around that table with you, like you personally promised them on the Blorenge. They're the experts, they know the uplands better than any—[Interruption.] I'm sorry, Minister, I've spoken to them this morning and they are not involved. [Interruption.] No, I'm sorry. They are the experts, they know the uplands better than anyone. It is not just nice to involve them; it is absolutely essential that they are if we're going to get an operational plan in place to truly prevent the scale of devastation that we've seen this summer.

First Minister, will you guarantee today that the farmers and commoners who are on the front line will be sat around that table in the summit? I'd love you to guarantee that. Will you launch an immediate educational awareness campaign targeting arson and human error, instead of hiding behind the excuse of climate change? This is what started the fires, not climate change, coupled with bad agricultural policy. You need to recognise this, and you need to act accordingly. Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Llywydd, I'm not sure where to begin, to be honest with you. We are responding to challenges that we've faced in many parts of our nation and the multitude of agencies that came together to tackle those, in very difficult circumstances, and the role that the Welsh Government played in that. I don't want to stand here having to correct a series of things that a Member says.

She says that I didn't even thank farmers for their role in the summer. I literally did; it's worth listening to my statements. My own son took part for days in carrying water bowsers to tackle the fires in Suffolk, as it happens. I'm very aware of the role that farmers played in tackling the wildfires this summer. So don’t throw accusations, somehow, at the Government for not understanding who played their part. I've mentioned it right here in the statement today. This was action that was taken on a multitude of different levels, because that is how we respond to emergencies such as the one we responded to this summer.

The Member says that the FBU called for a summit and I didn't respond. It was literally through the FBU writing to me that I said, 'Yes, let's have that summit', and it's happening on 22 October. This is through co-operation—[Interruption.] This is about dealing with the future. I'm not sure if the Member has any idea of the kinds of activities that were happening at that time and that have happened since. The summit is a part, if you like, of the response moving forward, as was the meeting between the Minister and the fire and rescue services and other agencies last week. The fire and rescue services themselves conduct their own analysis and assessment of the way that events were tackled at the time.

The Member throws accusations about not calling in military assistance until it was too late. That's not how it works; it is the fire and rescue services themselves who make the call to ask for the military to come in. They made the call on 13 August. The military were on the ground in 24 hours, and I can't thank the armed forces enough for responding to that call. The rules within which we operate, of course, mean that military assistance came in—the MACA rules within which we operate when civilian efforts have been exhausted. And I tell you what, the fire and rescue services were exhausted, because of the extreme stresses that were on them throughout this.

Now we move forward. We learn lessons. That is precisely what this summit, as well as other activities of Government, are all about. Does it look at the management of land? Does it look at how we control the amount of combustible material and so on on our uplands in particular? Yes, it does. That is what we're trying to do here; we're looking at what lessons can be learned. Do we need to change practices that have been introduced for very good reason over years because of the changing context in which we are operating?

The Member says farmers won't be at that summit. Landowners and farmers are absolutely a part of how we address it through that summit. So, yes, this is about bringing all those partners together who understand the different factors: experts in climate change, absolutely, experts in land management, experts in tackling wildfires. We have some of the best experts in the UK here in Wales. So, let's address what actually happened over the summer months, the amazing efforts that went in in extremely difficult circumstances, and learn lessons moving forward.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Casnewydd Islwyn)

I'd like to start by thanking the firefighters, emergency responders, public services, volunteers and local communities affected by the wildfires this summer. While I and my colleagues welcome this statement today, let's be clear, this is far from what the public should expect from a Government. There is no doubt that the wildfires across Wales this summer were a national crisis. Fire and rescue services were pushed to the brink. People were evacuated, homes and farmland destroyed, and large swathes of the country were covered in smoke.

People who were miles away from these fires were impacted by the smoke, and the Government failed to understand the public health concern across the country. It's nearly two months after the first wildfires. The Government will know that those fires were much earlier than we would usually start to see wildfires, and, sadly, they continued across Wales.

As Welsh Labour, we requested that this Senedd should have been recalled for Members to raise questions and for the public to have the opportunity to hear from the Government. In a national crisis, with so much of Wales on fire, I do not believe the Plaid Cymru Government acted quickly and decisively. The lack of information and updates from Government Ministers made it feel like this Government did not grasp the severity of the crisis. The extent of the damage to communities, the economy, the environment and wildlife must not be forgotten because the fires are no longer burning.

I'd like to know what work the Government is undertaking to understand the impact of the wildfires on the Welsh economy in urban and rural areas. The significant pressure on resources arising from the number and complexity of fire incidents was unprecedented. Having been in close contact with the FBU throughout the Senedd recess, they have made it clear to me that the Welsh Government must accept the incidents this summer demonstrated inadequate firefighting resources.

It's also important to highlight the control centre staff, including those at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, who handled 8,466 calls between 19 July and 1 September. Emergency services worked tirelessly for weeks whilst under relentless pressure. It would be good to know what engagement the Welsh Government has had with relevant unions since July and when the social partnership forum met.

Further learning will emerge over the coming months, but there are certain aspects that are already evident. I was grateful to you, First Minister, for allowing a briefing with Welsh Government officials during recess. At that briefing on 28 July, I raised the issue of communication. The crisis escalated in the following days, but there appeared to be a lack of continued strategic co-ordination between Government, NRW, local authorities, Public Health Wales, health boards and other partners. It was not communicated effectively or efficiently to the public or Members. There was undoubtedly a public health aspect to the crisis, and I'd like to know what this Government is doing to examine the full extent of this.

With the impact of climate change, extreme weather events are likely to become the norm, not the exception. There is a very real worry that fire and rescue services could find themselves facing a similar crisis situation due to flooding. Preparedness requires leadership and investment at a national level. I welcome the climate and nature action plan. The Welsh Government must work to ensure councils, communities and businesses are as prepared as possible for future significant weather events. This can't fall on individual local authorities. A climate resilience fund is one of the measures suggested for consideration by the FBU. Can the First Minister confirm whether this is something the Government will explore?

Prif Weinidog, I welcome what you have said today, but we need to see outcomes, not just promises. Political leadership is about being present and visible. It's also about learning and listening. I hope the Welsh Government is listening to the communities who watched in terror as flames approached, to the exhausted fire and rescue services, to the farmers whose crops were destroyed, and to the business owners who suffered significant financial losses. Firefighters, communities and businesses need to know that lessons have genuinely been learnt from this unprecedented summer. How will you measure the success of the climate change and reliance summit, and when will the climate and nature action plan be delivered? Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you very much for those comments and questions.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I certainly associate myself, as I echoed in my opening remarks, with that deep sense of thanks to everybody that was involved in the response through what was a very difficult summer that was challenging in a host of different ways.

The health impact, obviously, is one that was very much considered. How do you make sure that we are, in future, able to prepare for the impact of a greater number, potentially, of fires on health? These are the questions that we must always be engaged with.

On the recall of the Senedd over the summer, it was a perfectly fair request to be made. In the same way, the UK Labour Government didn't recall the UK Parliament, despite the pressures there. What happened there was that COBRA was called. I attended that COBRA meeting. We convened our Wales civil emergencies committee, because that is how we make sure that we take action, because that is the key element.

The Member says that she appreciated having that briefing from Government. We were very happy to provide information. We published a number of written statements, and that scrutiny capability is there throughout that time. It's always about sharing information and communicating. Coming from a communication background, I will always say that we look at how we improve communicating with people. It's something that we should always be eager to do, and it is one of the lessons. When you have more and more events of this kind, the communication challenge becomes more difficult too, just as fighting the fires themselves become difficult.

On the relationship with the unions, as I said, it was good that it was from the FBU themselves that that request came for the summit. It's something that I had discussed with my colleagues in Government a day or two previously, so we were able to call that summit directly in response to that request from the FBU, because it was clear that we were all thinking in the same kind of way. That will have a broad-ranging purpose—to understand the climate change challenge, to recognise the nature of the changing risks that we will face, and look at all those elements, including resource and capability within the fire and rescue services, absolutely, plus those elements of land management that will be so important moving forward.

We know that this summer is unlikely to be a one-off. This summer was a very loud alarm call for us all in how we respond to that. We can't wait for another summer of 2026, which is why we're moving quickly ahead with the kind of assessments that are taking place within the fire and rescue services themselves, the interaction with Government there. Meetings took place all summer between those partners—Natural Resources Wales, Welsh Government, the fire and rescue services. This was a multi-agency approach throughout, and that will be the guiding principle now. There's no one answer here. All of us have to come together to make sure that we are better equipped to deal with emergencies and try to mitigate the risks themselves in future.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement today. I think it's absolutely right that we're discussing this on the first day back in the Senedd after what was a devastating summer for many people affected by these wildfires. I also want to put on record my thanks to those firefighters, other emergency responders, and indeed the farming community, that stepped up when they were needed to try and get to grips with the situation, which was, at one point, looking like it was getting completely out of control because of the exceptionally dry weather and wind that we were experiencing.

I took a moment to have a look at the Wales resilience framework earlier on, last updated in 2025. It mentions flooding 21 times, the word 'pandemic' 17 times, but there's only one reference to wildfires, and that's in a foreword at the start of that document. So, it's quite clear that we haven't paid sufficient attention to the risk posed by wildfires in Wales in the past, neither the previous Government, nor, probably, the whole of the Senedd, if we're honest; I don't recall many debates or discussions on wildfires in the past, and, clearly, we need to focus on this issue more in the future. It's something that clearly requires an update, and I hope you'll commit to updating that resilience framework in response to me today. I'm glad that you've just registered the fact that you will.

I was interested to hear your point about the test that is required to be met before you're able to request the military support to come in, because many people had a perception that the military should have been called in earlier and that there was no real explanation afforded to people because of that. You've suggested that someone has a test in place. I don't know what the thresholds are in terms of that test. You said it's where the civilian efforts can't go any further and there's a need to call in extra support. But I would just like to know a little bit more about that test, who deems whether it's been met or not, so that we can better understand and scrutinise the decision-making process. Clearly, it does seem that you acted pretty rapidly once you were told that that test had been met. But I personally would have liked to have seen the military's intervention much sooner, and I think we would have perhaps been able to get things under control much sooner.

It was very alarming to hear that the capacity for air support is very limited across the United Kingdom. That's clearly something that needs to be addressed on a UK-wide basis, so that those resources can be called in very quickly where they are needed. And I'd be interested to know what discussions you've had with the UK Government about addressing that gap in the resilience infrastructure around the country, so that we can make sure that we have access to that air support—the choppers coming in and tipping the water where necessary.

And if I can just refer to a few other points, if I may. Obviously, reference has been made to the way that we manage land in the countryside these days, and it seems to me that there is an increased risk as a result of allowing some of the scrub, bracken and other vegetation to build up, because that in itself then creates the fuel for wildfires. We know that, historically, farmers and other landowners have tried to manage that in a sustainable way, by creating those barriers to stop fire spreading when it starts. And I do think that we need to review land management practices. It's good to see the Cabinet Secretary here responsible for rural affairs, and I know that he understands these things, but I do think that if we managed our land in a different way, then we could perhaps help to reduce some of these risks.

We've also seen, of course, a big fall in livestock numbers in Wales, and we are probably going to see a further fall in livestock numbers in Wales in the future. I don't know. But, certainly, if the previous Government's policy was being pursued, that's what we would see. Now, clearly, if animals are grazing, then there's less risk of that land being full of fuel for a wildfire to be able to spread. So, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, First Minister, on what we can do to make sure that we protect our livestock numbers to make sure that they can help to manage these things.

In addition to that, the National Farmers Union Cymru and other people working in the farming industry have called for funds to help the establishment of small reservoirs on farms, in order that there's more readily accessible water close to places that might combust. And I wonder whether that's something that you and your Government will consider.

And finally, I did hear earlier on the exchange about the need for bilingual alerts to go out at the same time when national emergency alerts go out. I appreciate that it's a UK Government responsibility, but, obviously, there needs to be joined-up thinking across the UK on these matters. That did cause a lot of confusion, and I'd be grateful to know what assurances you've received from the UK Government that, in future, those alerts will go out at the same time to make sure that people have the best opportunity of being able to respond quickly. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you for that series of really constructive questions, I think. Yes, our thanks to the emergency services made again very, very clearly, and I hope they genuinely do hear that, because I know there were some very exhausted women and men out there through the summer who were doing their best.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I agree on not having identified this enough as a risk. One of the elements of the work that I have engaged with very, very positively since coming into this role is the resilience work. I've tried to make sure that I am kept very, very well briefed on the broad range of resilience engagement that Welsh Government either leads or is a part of. I chair the Wales resilience forum, which brings together the whole raft of organisations that are involved in this thing called resilience, making sure that we are fit to face the challenges of the future, from health boards to policing to the military to all, you know, fire and rescue. It's something that I take very, very seriously indeed. And absolutely, our register of risks is updated regularly, and there will be, clearly, a reflection on the scale of the risk that we face through fire, and that is only right.

On military assistance, MACA—military aid to the civil authorities—and the rules, I'm happy to write to you, to share with you details of how it works. But, essentially, the call isn't made by Welsh Government, it is made, as I was explaining earlier, by those who are responsible for the response on the ground. The call was made, in this case, on 13 August, and it was agreed to. So, that the systems work is the key element, and the systems worked in a way that led to very rapid deployment, which was very, very important. But on those rules on engagement, we'll share as much information with you as we can. And the military, of course, is very much a part of, as I say, the Wales resilience forum.

On air support, we see the pictures, don't we, of planes on the continent dumping fire-retardant material or water on fires, and we can all be guilty of jumping to a conclusion that that must be the best way of fighting fires. I've learnt a lot as First Minister, in my engagement, working closely with the operations over the summer, that, actually, it's not always the best answer, that, often, it is containing, putting those breaks in place, letting a fire burn itself out and so on. But there is a place for developing and looking at how we make sure that we have more capability in future for air support. It is something that I raised specifically during the COBRA meeting on 12 August, and something that I understand will be looked at: what role can UK Government play in providing resource that is available for use across the UK? But we've at least been able to raise that issue. Also, the fire and rescue services are already developing a proposal to have some sort of framework in place for rapid access to civilian firefighting helicopters, which doesn't make any more such support available, but it does simplify, potentially, the process of contracting for aerial support. They don't need Welsh Government's permission to do this, by the way, but they would have our full support in doing so. So, we learn. It's an important part of it; it's not perhaps the silver bullet that some people think it is.

On physical elements on mitigating risks, yes, land management is clearly a potential part of that. It will be a part of the mix when it comes to that forum on 22 October. Livestock numbers absolutely can play a part in those discussions. I still say that any changes introduced in practices, driven at times by various Government policies, I am convinced have been driven by the right reasons—the right motives and motivations have been there. It's just that the context changes, and we need to make sure that we aren't creating unnecessary risks for ourselves, whilst, at the same time, being really determined to play our part in terms of the climate and nature emergency.

On the request for funds for small reservoirs, it's not something that I've had specific discussions about, but I know we are looking at how support can be provided for agriculture in light of what they have experienced this summer.

I'll end on the alert. I was in a restaurant at the time, when the alarm went off. It was frightening for many, I know, and the bilingual aspect did, without doubt, cause anxiety. This wasn't a Welsh Government issue. This was a UK Government issue. The question asked was: what engagement will we have? 'We will help', is the answer to that. It's important that the message gets through to people. But as I was saying earlier, bilingualism is not the problem, it's how we make sure that we have the outcome that we seek, which is to give people a warning of an impending risk, and that we also consider the fact that we're a bilingual country. We're very good at doing things bilingually here in Wales. We have expertise in making sure that we are able to support UK Government in reflecting on what happened with that emergency alert this summer.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

This is a very important issue, but we've only got 20 minutes left, so we're going to move to shorter contributions and questions from Members. If they can help us along, we'll try and get through everybody if we can. First, Niamh Salkeld.

Niamh Salkeld (Plaid Cymru, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Diolch, Lywydd. Over the summer, I actually witnessed first-hand the devastation that wildfires caused across Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni. A wildfire actually broke out in my own village. When you see those flames outside of your window—. It's really difficult to understand the fear that they bring until you see it first-hand. You lie awake at night wondering whether, at any moment, you might have to actually leave your home because of how intense the fire gets. But thanks to the brilliant work of the fire and rescue service, the military, local communities, farmers and so many others, the fires were brought under control. These wildfires are a stark reminder to us all of the risks that Wales is facing from a changing climate. Climate change might not always light the match, but it's turning our countryside and our terrain into kindling.

So, I welcome this summit, but can I have some reassurance, please, that local voices, including farmers and community groups, will be around the table, alongside key organisations as well, like National Gas, who are sometimes the unsung heroes but play a really important role as well, so that their experience can help shape how we prepare for the future? Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. The Member speaks of her experience in her community. Thanks to all Senedd Members of all parties who responded to concerns in their own communities. We are there. We are able to share information and provide support in all sorts of different ways.

Climate change—yes, absolutely, we are seeing the impacts of climate change here now. Who will be part of that response? It will be as many people as we possibly can get. There is a physical table for that summit, and we'll get as many people around it as possible, but there's also a metaphorical table, isn't there? And around that, absolutely, communities the length and breadth of Wales will need to be heard, their concerns heard, as we move forward to facing up to the risks in the future. In terms of landowners, farmers—absolutely, they will be there.

Claire Johnson-Wood (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

First, I'd like to thank you, First Minister, for the advance notice of your statement. I'd like to associate myself with your remarks in respect of the thanks that we owe to our fire and rescue services, emergency workers and, in my constituency as well, our farmers, which we've all discussed previously, who all played a crucial role in battling the wildfires and supporting our fellow citizens. Had it not been for their bravery and skills, the damage could have been a lot, lot worse.

First Minister, I was not alone in being frightened by the intensity and proximity of wildfires during the summer in my constituency of Gwynedd Maldwyn, including one which was a very short distance from my own home. Again, I saw the flames. The fear was felt by many of my fellow citizens all over Wales, from Corwen in the north, Pembrokeshire, Carmarthen, down to category 3 blazes in Blaenavon, Ferndale, Ebbw Vale, just to name a few. Our thoughts are really with them at this time.

First Minister, as you have acknowledged, homes were evacuated, and scientists have described the impact of the wildfires across Wales as absolutely catastrophic. Can you reassure my constituents, please, that your Government will share the lessons that have been learnt, and can you tell us what practical measures you propose so that they can be subject to proper scrutiny?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you very much for that. The Member makes the case that this isn't something that we can now view as something happening over there, you know, in another part of the world. And we all watched in—. It was frightening seeing what was happening in Bordeaux, and France and other parts of Europe. This was happening here in Wales as well, and it does frighten. The key thing is that we do learn. That is what we're trying to do here. The summit is a very prominent part of that learning. But, as I've tried to explain, that learning is happening right across Government.

We absolutely will be reporting back on what the steps are that will come out of that summit and different measures, so that we can be held to account over it. People need to know that we don't go into summer 2027 in the same way as we did in summer 2026. But there's also a longer term element to this too. When we look at tackling climate change and some of the longer term changes that we need to put in place, we will try to be as open as we can about the responses that we and our partners think are necessary as a result of our experience.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

May I thank you for that statement from you, First Minister? It shows just how important this issue is and the events that we experienced over the summer. So, thank you very much for making this statement and for listening to our comments today.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

I also want to pay tribute to all of those firefighters, farmers, landowners, moorland managers, the army as well, for the work that they did. In my constituency this August, a wildfire in Glascwm just showed the importance of those people coming together and being resilient as a community. They brought tractors, bulldozers, water bowsers to a rapidly spreading fire over 30 hours. Machinery was pushed to its limits. One landowner has told me that he spent £4,500 on diesel tackling three wildfires in the space of that time. So, I really would like to know from you who will be brought together. It would be really good for some clarification, and Laura Anne has asked for that. Will that include moorland managers and farmers and people with the National Trust, for example, who are land managers as well?

And moving forward, we know that climate change is going to be worse again next year. So, we really do need a plan in place and we'd love to know what your timescale is going to be, particularly for 2027, to make sure we've got things in place to make sure that we tackle this as well as we can. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, and I'm glad you recognise that by me making the statement that we hold this at the very highest level of importance in Government. I can assure you that I was very much at the heart of the Government response alongside other Ministers over what was a very, very difficult summer indeed.

I am happy to—. Obviously, the work we're doing now is putting together that list of individuals and organisations that will be represented around that physical table. We want it to be comprehensive. This is about multi-agency working. We need to make sure that the partners who have knowledge across the whole breadth of areas that are relevant to this field will be there. I will share that information as much as I can. There has to be a sense that this is a project for us as a nation now. When we look at issues of national resilience, they genuinely do matter to all of us. And where there are ideas and suggestions put forward by people who, for whatever reason, aren't around that table, we will absolutely take them seriously as we put together a plan now to respond to what the Member and I recognise as being the threat of our generation, which is the threat of climate change.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Thank you very much for this afternoon's statement, and thank you to everyone who tackled the fires over the summer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

The danger posed by mountain fires was brought home starkly by the devastating blaze at the Pantside estate in Newbridge, where homes were destroyed. This summer showed that these fires are becoming more ferocious, more complex and more dangerous as our climate changes. We were fortunate that no lives were lost this time.

I recently met with the Fire Brigades Union and thank firefighters for their extraordinary work keeping our communities safe, but it's clear that the risk has changed, and therefore our response must change with it. In reviewing and adapting the future plan, I know of members of the Welsh diaspora with direct experience of wildfire preparedness who would be willing to share that experience with the Welsh Government. Are you therefore actively seeking international advice from people and places with far greater experience of fires on this scale to add to the experts that we have here in Wales? Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

'Absolutely' is the short answer. I forget the name of the summit—it was held in London last week—where representatives of 70 nations were there specifically looking at wildfires and how Governments and the public services and fire and rescue services should be responding. So, yes, very much a part of an international response to what is an ever more emerging threat. Where there are members of the Welsh diaspora who have specific reason to help us with their knowledge, please, Welsh Government is always interested in hearing from them.

Steve Bayliss (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I would like to declare an interest, having worked for South Wales Fire and Rescue Service for over 20 years. First Minister, I thank our firefighters, control staff and support teams. On 13 August, joint fire control handled over 1,000 calls. At one point, south Wales crews faced 14 wildfires simultaneously. Afan Ogwr Rhondda needs well-trained crews, the right equipment and reliable water supplies, even in drought. On 23 July, your Cabinet Minister announced a review of firefighting capability and costs. Will you publish a costed plan by 31 October, agreed with all three fire services, identifying what must improve, who is responsible, and what will be delivered before next spring? Your Government extended the intervention in south Wales, where commissioners set the levy paid by local councils. Will your draft budget fund those improvements so councils are not left to meet the additional costs? Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you very much for those questions. The Member is right: we thank the whole team in fire and rescue, and it is those behind the scenes, those control staff and support teams. He's also right in pointing to the cumulative nature of the threat that we faced this summer being perhaps the biggest issue. Don't get me wrong, some of the fires individually were very, very serious and caused a significant challenge for the fire and rescue services, but it was at that point—and I think it was 14 that was the highest number at one point—it was the sheer stress of that on not just our capability to fight those fires, but our resilience to deal with other potential emergencies that was genuinely stretched.

I don't think I can give an assurance to publish that plan by 31 October, not least in that we have a programme for assessing capability needs, resources, the threats, through a summit that is being held on 22 October. So, we're trying to move as quickly as we can here, making sure we have the right people, taking the right attitude to finding the solutions that we need, but I can give an assurance that we will work as quickly as we can to provide a guide to what will be different in the future.

You're right that there are issues with costs related to the stresses this summer, and Welsh Government has made the decision that fire services and local authorities will be able to apply for funding under our emergency financial assistance scheme because of the specific pressures that were placed upon them this summer because of the wildfires.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you, First Minister, for this important statement.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

It really is unbelievable seeing the party opposite continue to deny the cause of this issue affecting our rural communities. I believe a big part of being a politician is actually listening to what's being said, and I really wish Members had done that today.

Having recently met with a farmer in the Llangynidr area of my constituency seriously impacted by the recent wildfires, he spoke about the fact that Welsh Water infrastructure was unmaintained and hindered efforts to tackle the fires. Can we have assurances that the Welsh Government will put pressure on agencies like Welsh Water to ensure the inspection, clearance and ongoing maintenance of their infrastructure, especially across rural parts of the country that have been impacted so much by the wildfires? Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you very much for the question. The Minister will have heard the question too. There are a whole host of considerations that we will need to look at when it comes to our resilience, and water supply, absolutely, is one of those. The water supply companies were very much a part of the joined-up response during the course of this summer, assessing their needs for firefighting, their needs for making sure that those pressures didn't impact on drinking water supplies and so on. But, yes, we will need to make sure that, if there were problems that came to light during this summer, everything possible is done to make sure that we are mitigating or minimising those risks as we face a situation where the risks will only get higher.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

First Minister, as you're aware, the fire in Blaenavon burned for weeks and weeks, and the efforts of the firefighters and the landowners and graziers who worked alongside them were absolutely extraordinary. I welcome the fact that there's going to be a summit, but you've indicated in your statement that there's already been an initial debrief with some suggestions. I think it would have been helpful to have had some detail on that in the statement today. What I haven't heard from you so far today is any commitment to provide funding to those areas worst affected. It is undoubtedly the case that Blaenavon will need a very significant sum of money to restore the common, but also to prevent the reoccurrence of such a fire in the future. Is it your intention for the summit to look at funding issues?

And you've given assurances today that the voices of local people will be heard in the summit. Now, I know how difficult it is to organise a Welsh Government summit, but I think it is crucial that it's not just the representative bodies or the national bodies, but that we do actually have a voice for those people who were there day in, day out, fighting the fires in places like Blaenavon.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you. It's a really important point, because everybody needs to be a part of the solution, but neither can they literally be a part of a summit. And whilst I clearly can't say that there will be representatives of every community affected at one summit on 22 October 2026, what we need to make sure is that their interests are served at that summit and that we have means always of making sure that they are able to feed into the decision-making process that we have.

Now, it strikes me that there are things that we can do as a Parliament that help people make their voice heard. As Members, we are all voices for the people that we represent. I will give some thought about how, actually, that happens from a Welsh Government point of view, but the crucial thing for us is that their interests are served at that table, and that—. I was in Blaenavon; I visited and I saw the fire for myself and it was devastating. I was speaking to those who had been grazing on the common and they were facing significant impacts on their livelihoods.

In terms of the impact on farming and so on, I have indicated today that active consideration is being given to what assistance can be made available, and no doubt we'll hear from the rural resilience and sustainability Minister on that. But, yes, voices must be heard—and, in fact, I would argue that they already are, through the actions of all of us here. But, really, what people want to know is, 'What's the action going to be?' We will be very open about the results of that summit, plus the meetings that have taken place. Speaking with the Minister, it was an update on 8 September—I see it very much as setting up, then, the work of the summit, and it appears that there are elements already shaping up. So, it would have been about organisation, the physical environment, already being looked at by the fire and rescue services as part of their debriefs. That will be fed, then, into that national summit. This isn't going to be a one-off; this is going to be a process of making sure we're ready for the changing risks in the future.

James Evans (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you for your statement, First Minister. I think two things that haven't quite been raised yet by Members are that, actually, a lot of these fires were being brought under control and they were restarted because of arson. That was because of a TikTok sensation of young people going and setting gorse bushes on fire because they think it's cool. And actually, one thing that we need to do is make sure the Department for Culture, Media and Sport come down hard on these companies that are not taking down this content straight away, which is fuelling this sort of online sensation. So, I'd like to hear from you, First Minister, what conversations you're having with other UK Government departments, and social media companies, about bringing these things under control quicker, because that will also help to get some of these situations under control.

Also, what we are going to see is an increased cost for our farmers as well. A lot of people have lost a lot of grazing up on the upland areas, which is going to put huge cost burdens onto them. So, I'd be interested to know whether the Welsh Government is thinking of bringing forward any payment window, so farmers can be paid early in their support to make sure they can buy fodder through the winter.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Thank you. I'm also deeply concerned about copycat arson attacks, potentially. Just speaking here with my Minister for culture who is willing to take this forward as a question with UK Ministers in a meeting soon, because we do need to be looking at these threats that are absolutely things that we have in common across the whole of the UK.

One thing that I have learnt is that our fire and rescue services have, over a period of years, become very, very effective at communicating messages around safety, reducing the risk of fire in homes dramatically over the years. They have also been doing a lot of engagement work with young people, talking about the risks, the dangers of fire setting and so on. I'm eager to see that kind of work being promoted more, and no doubt that will be a part of the prevention agenda as we move forward. Because human behaviour is, as I said earlier, a big part of the threat that we are facing here.

Again, on agriculture, we're very, very aware of the challenges that have been caused to agriculture by the fires this summer. I know that discussions have been going on involving the rural resilience Minister. We want to make sure, within the confines of financial constraints and so on, that we're able to help, either in practical terms or, where we can, in financial terms too. Those considerations are very active. We will report back when we're able to do so.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

And finally, Matthew Jones.

Matthew Jones (Plaid Cymru, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you very much, First Minister.

Matthew Jones (Plaid Cymru, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

The wildfire on Mynydd Garnclochdy near Blaenavon in Sir Fynwy Torfaen was devastating, and the effects were felt far and wide. I'd like to thank you again for coming to visit Blaenavon and meeting with the common land graziers; for listening to them and thanking them personally for everything that they did, including James Bourne, a farmer who has documented the fire's devastating impact on the land and its livestock throughout. At the height of the fire, the experience and the knowledge of James and his fellow Blorenge graziers was essential. They put themselves at great personal risk in helping firefighters navigate the land and tackle the blaze. Their experiences will be vital in learning lessons from these fires, but questions remain as to where their flocks will now graze and the support that they will receive for the recovery. So, my question is: how will the Government engage with these common land graziers to make sure that their experiences are given a fair hearing and their expertise considered in any decisions made in the wake of the summit? Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Yes, I was very grateful to a number of the graziers on the land above Blaenavon for making time to speak with me. It was good that we were able to speak as Welsh Government, and with Senedd Members there too, about the stresses that had been placed on them. You could sense that there was a real tiredness after such a long period of the fire burning.

I am really keenly aware of the impact of the wildfires on Welsh farming and those grazing on common land. Welsh Government is exploring opportunities to bring together those relevant stakeholders in the coming months, as well as the summit itself, to consider how the resilience and recovery, of our commons specifically, to such events, can be strengthened. And as I signified, we're looking at all elements of the kinds of assistance that might be made possible through Government action.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, First Minister. Before we move on, I would like to remind the Chamber that Members have the right to speak in English or in Welsh at any time during our proceedings.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Questions asked in English may be answered in Welsh, just as questions asked in Welsh may be answered in English.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Where there is a technical problem with interpretation equipment, we will of course always pause proceedings until the problems are resolved.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I hope that's a helpful clarification.

4. Statement by the Cabinet Minister for Finance: Rebalancing the non-domestic rates system

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We will now move to item 4. Item 4, a statement by the Cabinet Minister for Finance: rebalancing the non-domestic rates system.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you, Llywydd. Today, I'm pleased to announce changes the Welsh Government will make to reflect our manifesto commitments to rebalance the non-domestic rates system, and level the playing field for high-street businesses. We recognise the importance of vibrant retail, hospitality and leisure sectors, and these are central to our ambition to regenerate town centres and to breathe new life into our high streets.

Our work of rebalancing the rates system will be delivered through changes to the existing differential multipliers, improving support for selected hospitality and leisure businesses. An expanded scope for the lower multiplier will be funded by a marginal increase to the higher multiplier, applicable to the highest value properties in the tax base across all sectors.

From 2027-28, selected small to medium-sized hospitality and leisure properties will be subject to the lower multiplier currently applied to retail shops. This will bring eligible hospitality and leisure businesses in line with the permanent support introduced for retailers from this year. Eligible properties with rateable values below £51,000 will attract a 30 per cent reduction in their non-domestic rates bills.

This permanent support will replace and exceed the temporary discretionary relief of 15 per cent for food and drink hospitality properties that is currently being provided. It will mean that a wider range of hospitality and leisure businesses will get the long-term certainty that they need to invest and to grow.

The eligible food and drink hospitality properties are pubs, restaurants, cafes, bars, food courts, licensed clubs and live music venues. The eligible visitor accommodation properties are hotels, guest houses and hostels. And in the leisure sector, the eligible properties are cinemas, theatres, libraries, museums and gyms.

These businesses play important and complementary roles in vibrant high streets and town centres. Along with retailers, ratepayers for around 20,000 properties will therefore benefit from the expanded lower multiplier. Over 12,500 more properties of the relevant types already attract full relief, and that means that they therefore do not pay any non-domestic rates. Ratepayers for a majority of properties across Wales, particularly small businesses, will also continue to benefit from a range of permanent reliefs currently worth more than £200 million per year.

There is a balance to strike between the broader support that is provided through the lower multiplier and the resulting impact on the value of the higher multiplier. The higher multiplier will be set at just over 4 per cent above the standard multiplier from 2027-28 onwards. This is a small increase to the existing difference, and it's a fair way to redistribute liability so that we can better support the businesses that are at the heart of our high streets and town centres.

These changes to the differential multipliers are linked with the broader work of the town centres taskforce. This taskforce will take account of national policy frameworks, as well as considering the more tailored support that may be needed in individual town centres. Our approach recognises that needs will vary between places that may be facing different challenges that might go beyond the rate system.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

I'll bring forward the regulations required to implement the changes to the differential multipliers in the coming weeks. The regulations will specify the properties that will be subject to the lower multiplier, and amend the value used to calculate the higher multiplier relative to the standard multiplier for any given year. Subject to the approval of this Senedd, the changes will take place on 1 April 2027.

The values of the multipliers for next year will be determined as part of our budget preparations for 2027-28, following the UK Government's autumn budget. I'm proposing to make these changes at the earliest opportunity in this Senedd, to prioritise the improvements that are deliverable and affordable in the short term. The Welsh Government will continue to consider further reforms to the non-domestic rates system that reflect our broader ambitions for Wales. I know that Members across the Chamber are interested in this matter, and ideas for further measures on non-domestic rates will receive a listening ear from me. Diolch.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

I'd first like to thank the finance Minister for taking the time out of her busy day to join us here in the Senedd, but if I'm truthfully honest, I'm not sure what the point was, given you'd already announced to the press in writing what you were going to do over 24 hours ago. I'm reminded of that excellent phrase from the former Plaid Cymru leader and current Government Minister, Adam Price, who said, when Labour did exactly the same thing, 'government by press briefing'. He also said it was disrespectful to the Llywydd and that, quote,

'it undermines this institution and our roles as elected Members'.

Strong words. Can the Minister confirm whether she aims to continue governing by press briefing?

Now, coming on to the content of your press release, I'd also like to thank the finance Minister for taking a policy straight out of Reform's manifesto. In it, we said:

'We will introduce a permanent lower multiplier for pubs, hotels and hospitality venues'.

Something that was not specified in Plaid Cymru's own manifesto. Look, if Reform provides the policy and Plaid Cymru delivers it, I won't complain. However, sadly, there must have been some misreading of our manifesto because, to afford the tax cut, you didn't end international spending or find savings in Government efficiencies; you just sent the bill directly to Wales's big businesses. As you were quoted in the press release, the

'burden will fall on the bigger businesses',

bigger businesses like Admiral, Wales's only FTSE 100 company; Airbus, one of Flintshire's biggest employers; and Tata Steel, providing an essential and strategic resource for the whole nation.

But of course, although the bill for the tax goes on the business's accounts, businesses don't pay taxes, in the same way as a house doesn't pay council tax, the same way this flooring doesn't pay VAT, and the same way this speech doesn't pay income tax. Do you know who pays taxes? People pay taxes. So, when you tax business, it has to be paid by somebody. Either it's paid by the owners or the customers or the workers. There is no other option. So, when Admiral's insurance premiums go up for its customers, and pay rises for Airbus's employees don't happen, and investment for Tata Steel's electric arc furnace dries up, will you take the blame? And will you correct your press release statement, Minister, to say that the burden falls on the millions of Welsh people associated with bigger businesses?

And the situation for them is even worse because, just across the border, businesses can run a factory or rent office space or use any other premises a large successful company needs for lower business rates, discouraging future businesses from an opportunity to come to Wales.

My final point on this press release is this: is this it? Plaid Cymru in their manifesto said business rates needed real reforms, and after eight weeks over the summer, all you could come up with was moving some industries into the eligibility for the lower threshold category that already existed. Minister, when will we see the real reforms of business rates promised in your manifesto? Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Well, I'm sure I could have made this statement at any point during the summer term. The statement was ready to be made. I chose in particular to wait for the first day of the Senedd being back in session to make the statement, and I'm making it on the floor of the Senedd in order to receive questions from other parties and from Members here to see how they respond to the statement, and what else they think that this system should deliver. After that five minutes from the Reform representative, I'm not sure whether Reform are going to support this reduction of 30 per cent in business rates for this sector, which is a really important sector for our town centres, or not. It wasn't clear to me, from what you said, whether you would support it or not. But you'll have to decide on that, of course, before the voting happens on the floor of this Senedd one way or another on a change of this kind.

But may I say why Plaid Cymru decided to take this initial step? Members across this Senedd continuously talk about the need to strengthen our town centres. Our town centres are important to the communities that we represent, whether that is in our industrial areas, in our Valleys, or in more rural areas. Providing support to those businesses that are, in their broad range, existing in town centres has been a manifesto commitment from Plaid Cymru, and today it is a commitment that we are delivering within Government. I hope that that strikes a chord that will be supported by people across the Senedd who represent communities all across Wales and of all political backgrounds as well.

You have been a bit too busy reading that press release, I think, rather than listening to what I said in my statement 5 ft away from you this afternoon. You asked the question, 'Is this it?', and I responded to that today in front of you. I responded when I said that this is an initial first step, and I'm keen to hear the views from other Members on what more this Government could be able to deliver in order to support those businesses. So, spend a bit less time reading the press releases and judging those press releases, and use a bit more of your time standing up in this Chamber listening to what's being said.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

I don't know if I need to say this, but Cai made reference to Airbus, and I have a family member working for that company.

Welsh Labour has been clear that we at least intend to be a constructive opposition. That's why we do welcome the principles of today's announcement, recognising the permanent reduction of 30 per cent, providing valuable support and assurances to businesses in accommodation, hospitality and leisure that qualify for this reduction. This announcement, of course, builds on the policies of the previous Welsh Labour Government that provided over £1 billion of rate support for hospitality and leisure businesses since 2020-21.

But we do have to pay for this reduction, don't we? The Minister says that the proposals are cost neutral and that the burden will fall on the largest businesses. But we also have to recognise that non-domestic rates are based on the value of property, not the turnover of a company, its profit or its ability to pay. A business that has a high rateable value as a site isn't necessarily a large business or necessarily a very profitable business.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

The Federation of Small Businesses says that some higher value hospitality and leisure premises have already faced increases of up to 70 per cent following revaluation. Some hotels could now be excluded from the 30 per cent reduction and made to pay the higher multiplier instead.

I'm also concerned about the unintended consequences of today's announcements. Few in this Chamber would, I think, challenge the notion of raising business rates on large out-of-town retailers, but these proposals will likely also impact valuable sites employing hundreds of workers each in places like the city centres of Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

I was speaking earlier with Gwyn, regretting the loss of Marks and Spencer in Swansea. Will there be more retailers of that kind that are likely to take decisions to close their stores in the middle of our cities?

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

I'd point out here that Cardiff alone makes a net contribution of around £100 million to the Welsh national non-domestic rates pot. Will the Minister therefore share, in advance of the budget—today, if possible—the intended threshold for the higher multiplier, the number, type and location of the properties that will pay more, the average and largest expected increases, and her assessment of the effect on jobs, investment and prices? Can she also set out how she will avoid a cliff edge for businesses whose rateable value is just above £51,000?

What these questions demonstrate, I think, Minister, is that what's actually needed is wholesale reform of the business rates system in its totality. There was a commitment to that effect in Welsh Labour's manifesto, just as there was in Plaid Cymru's manifesto. I know that this new Government loves a review, it loves a commission. I wonder, Minister, if you could explain why your announcement today—welcome though it broadly is—is simply making tweaks at the margins and not getting into the more comprehensive changes that your party promised before the election. Our offer, as Welsh Labour, is to work with you so that we can make the system fair and so that we can incentivise businesses and local authorities to grow the value of NDR receipts and to drive wider economic growth. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you for those comments and the welcome and the challenges that you set out there in your contribution. Of course, one of the advantages, hopefully, that the businesses that are eligible for this support will see is that it will be a 30 per cent reduction that will be permanent for them. The reduction that's in place for pubs at the moment is discretionary and is only 15 per cent, and therefore, this will excel compared to that and it will be automatic for those businesses. It will allow those businesses that are eligible to be able to plan on the basis of the guarantee that they will have that, if the regulations on this measure pass, this will be something that they can plan for ahead of time. Of course, we are adding to the system that's already in place for shops, that system that was introduced by the previous finance Minister under the Labour Government, so the use of the multiplier, the different multipliers, was introduced by my predecessor in that context. So what I'm doing is expanding the number of businesses that are eligible for this cut in non-domestic rates.

And it is a first step, as I mentioned, as we start to think about how we can go further with the town centre taskforce that has been set up in terms of developing the high street and supporting the high street as the heart of a number of communities. But also the challenge you set forward is a challenge that is about the system as a whole, of course. You speak particularly about city centres, which have large shops and have important anchor stores in the middle of those cities. It is important, of course, that we think about striking the right balance in terms of supporting the smaller businesses, which is a continuous call coming from Members in this Chamber, but with an eye to not disadvantaging the larger businesses too much. So striking that balance is important. In terms of publishing the exact multipliers that will be operational for 2027, that will have to wait until we have the budget for next year, when that is introduced. That is when that will become operational, will become known.

And then on the point about the full reform of this system that is needed, I think, as a Senedd—. I hear it from different parties and from different Members: rather than making small changes here and there and sometimes making them in a reactive way, reacting to whatever issue is affecting the economy, we need to look at this area as a whole, in its entirety. I would hope, as we discuss and test out more of the ideas relating to business rates, we will come to a consensus across this Chamber with regard to the political appetite that there is to address this work. I would be happy to be part of that discussion.

On these cliff edges you mentioned—when £51,000 is the limit and if you're one side or the other of that, it's a 30 per cent difference in how much tax you pay—this is one of the considerations certainly that needs to be looked at in the future. So, there are further changes that I think the Government could look into making, with support from this Chamber, and then there is a broader question about addressing and reforming the system as a whole. I'm sure that the discussion on that will continue.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Cabinet Minister, thank you for your statement today. I do share some of the concerns raised by our Reform colleague in terms of the way in which this information has been disseminated to Members of the Senedd. I think it is right and proper that in the vast majority of instances, information is shared in this Chamber first before being released to the press, just to show some respect to the Chamber itself and the Members within it.

But in terms of the meat of this statement, I certainly welcome the direction of travel from the Government on this and recognise that business rates represent a significant cost for businesses across Wales at a time when many are already under considerable pressures. Cabinet Minister, you'll be aware that our high streets have been struggling to adapt to changing consumer behaviour and the continued growth of online retail. The Welsh Conservatives have consistently argued that the tax burden on those businesses is far too high. We also need to be honest about the wider pressures that businesses are facing, dealing with taxation of all types alongside employee pressures and rising energy costs. Of course, business rates are only one part of a wider cost of doing business.

Colleagues have already raised a couple of questions I was interested in. I will point to three issues and questions, though. Respectfully, Cabinet Minister, I'm not sure if you fully responded to Huw Thomas's question, particularly around the cliff edge. You acknowledged it in your response, but, of course, there has potentially been the introduction of a new cliff edge here. I wonder what assurances you can give those businesses that they won't feel the pain of that, potentially, and that there may be some tapering that could take place so businesses aren't falling foul one way or the other. What confidence can you give to businesses that that is properly understood and recognised in terms of a potential tapering of this relief beyond that £51,000? A broader discussion you mentioned in regard to business rates, I think, does need to take place. I'd expect Welsh Government to lead on that.

There was one specific issue I'd be grateful for you to consider in this discussion, and that's one around the particular challenges faced by businesses who are just starting out. Business rates will ordinarily apply as soon as they start up, meaning firms can face a tax bill very soon after opening their doors without necessarily generating real income at that point. I wonder what consideration you might give to our proposal for business rate free periods for new retail businesses and others on the high street to give those entrepreneurs the opportunity to establish themselves before facing this additional cost.

Another consideration on which I'd be interested in your response is the role of local authorities in business rates. Of course, many people think that councils set those business rates, but they merely collect them on behalf of the Welsh Government. But I wonder if there's an opportunity to incentivise our local authorities by allowing them to retain an element of any non-domestic rates growth in their area, to allow our councils to invest in our town centres or incentivise our councils perhaps to invest in those town centres more than they currently do.

Finally, Minister, I'm interested—and it's back to this particular announcement today—in how it's going to impact businesses that offer mixed services. In my own constituency, Banana Ben's play centre and cafe may be impacted by this. They've been refused food and drink hospitality rate relief in the past, despite food and drink accounting for 60 per cent of their floor space and 61 per cent of their turnover. Companies House classify it as an unlicensed restaurant and cafe. The business provides indoor play alongside food and drink for families, and the two, of course, are not mutually exclusive, yet it will not, it seems, qualify for the equivalent relief. Businesses of a similar nature in England absolutely do. So, I wonder whether you could respond to that and what you might seek to do to address this disparity to ensure that Welsh businesses are not disadvantaged simply because they operate in Wales, perhaps offering more than one service to their customers. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you for the contribution.