Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 30 June 2026

257 contributions from 55 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Prynhawn da. Good afternoon, everybody.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Welcome back. We will begin this afternoon with questions to the First Minister. The first question is from Francesca O'Brien.

Francesca O'Brien (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve recruitment in the education sector? OQ64315

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Supporting the education workforce is central to our mission to raise standards and give learners the best foundation for their futures. I was pleased to join the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on 11 June to announce that we have delivered our 100-day commitment to increase the priority subject incentive for student teachers to £20,000 from September, to support recruitment across Wales.

Francesca O'Brien (Reform UK, Gŵyr Abertawe)

I thank the First Minister for his answer. First Minister, the previous Labour Government introduced a £5,000 grant available exclusively to student teachers on the basis of their ethnicity—not their subject specialism, not their ability, not their potential, but solely their ethnicity. After four years, the Welsh Labour Government's own data shows the scheme has done almost nothing. Meanwhile, a fifth of children leaving primary school in Wales are unable to read properly and our Programme for International Student Assessment scores have hit record lows compared to the rest of the UK. Your manifesto promises better incentives for trainee teachers and your new Government has already quietly rolled out this grant forward into 2026-27. First Minister, will this Government continue paying public money to recruit teachers on the basis of race rather than merit, or will you finally commit to a teacher recruitment system that judges every candidate by the same standard, as the people of Wales deserve?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The manifesto on which I stood promised to put steps in place to incentivise the recruitment of teachers. That's exactly what we have done. We need more teachers. I hope that we can agree on that. We have taken measures through identifying specialist areas already. We also need to make sure that we reach into communities from which not enough teachers have been coming. We also need to make sure that our teaching workforce reflects the population of Wales, where I think, on this particular issue, 2 per cent of the existing teaching workforce identify as being from an ethnic minority compared with 12 per cent of learners. So, making sure that the workforce reflects the pupils is very important too, but there are lots of different ways in which we are determined to incentivise teachers, because we need the best ones in place to improve education standards. That's exactly what we do.

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Schools in Gŵyr Abertawe are reporting an increase in school absences, leading to increasing concerns regarding anxiety and related mental health issues. A great deal of praise is due to John Davies, because it was his idea that we go around the schools in the constituency to see what the problems are, to see what we can do about them. These absences lead to problems in terms of learning, problems for parents and problems for teachers. Clearly, all of these things make teaching even more difficult, impacting on not only recruitment, but teacher retention as well. What steps will the Government take to support teachers and to help them to remain in their posts? Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I congratulate the local Members for ensuring that they do go to schools to see what the challenges are. Regular attendance, we know, is crucial for participation, educational achievement and pupil welfare and well-being. We are focused on tackling those barriers as soon as possible, enabling children and young people to attend school, to participate in learning and to achieve their full potential. The Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is working specifically to address the fundamental causes of pupil absence, including better information sharing and drawing together the partners required in order to make progress in this area—education, well-being and support services—thereby improving engagement and, ultimately and hopefully, reducing pupil absence.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

I will say that ethnic minorities are under-represented in the teaching workforce. That leads to poor outcomes, and I'm very proud of the steps that the last Labour Government took to try and address that. I'm grateful to the First Minister for carrying on that funding.

However, First Minister, on a different issue, you mentioned your flagship announcement early this year to improve recruitment in the education sector. It's a move that has been widely criticised. The National Association of Head Teachers described the plans as a sticking-plaster solution and warned that it risks creating a two-tier workforce. Incredibly, it seems that the plan doesn't require teachers to stay in the profession for a certain period of time having received the financial incentives proposed.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

So, First Minister, could you tell us, First Minister, what discussions you had with the teaching unions before announcing these plans? You said that you want to be working in partnership. What were those discussions that you had? Why didn't you listen to the concerns that they have expressed, if you met with them? If you didn't meet with them, then how are you now going to be learning those lessons?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

What I will say is that, of course, the Minister for education meets union representatives all the time. Partnership with unions is important. She is a Minister who happens to have experience of working in that area herself. So, nobody could accuse this education Minister of not respecting the relationship with trade unions. At the end of the day, it is our aim here, as a Government, to address the recruitment challenges and this is a first step, of course, which will lead to developing the incentives that we intend to put in place, because the current teaching workforce needs to be supported. And a large part of that support is to ensure resilience across the education workforce in Wales.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, Fflint Wrecsam)

Gwyn Williams was absolutely right to point to the challenge around retaining our hard-working teachers at the moment as well, First Minister. A recent survey by one teaching union showed that 38 per cent of teachers here in Wales have experienced some sort of violence in the classroom in the last 12 months, and a number of teachers are now telling us that one of the significant reasons why they're leaving the profession is because of violence and terrible behaviour in the classroom. So, First Minister, what will you do to tackle these challenges that teachers are experiencing in the classrooms, so that our teachers can feel safe doing the job that they love to do?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think the Member is absolutely right, and it's why the party that I lead has spoken so clearly about needing that holistic approach, that wraparound approach, to giving both pupils and teachers the support that they need, and, of course, tackling violence in the school environment is something that is hugely important. The Member is quite right to point out, of course, that there is a whole host of issues that come together to make teaching an attractive proposition, an attractive profession. I want people to be excited about going into that profession. Both my parents were teachers themselves. Feeling safe within the school environment, of course, is a really important part of the support that we can give the workforce.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, Casnewydd Islwyn)

2. What action is the Welsh Government taking in light of the Supreme Court's ruling on the definition of biological sex? OQ64253

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Welsh Government is taking forward lawful, consistent and workable actions in Wales, whilst upholding the dignity and respect of all people.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, Casnewydd Islwyn)

First Minister, I was recently contacted by several concerned members of staff, who want to remain anonymous, at the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, after they received a presentation entitled 'transcending boundaries, celebrating transgender awareness week and how to be an ally'. I'm all in favour of diversity, but I would much rather NHS staff focus on patients and delivering care, than them being distracted by training sessions that do not improve patient care and front-line services. Staff told me how they felt extremely uncomfortable with the session, saying it was highly sexualised and inappropriate. I can't say I blame them when you hear some of the presentation's content. First Minister, part of the presentation involved a man talking about his genitals, alongside a photo of a rocket, and he states, and I quote, 'No Viagra needed'. The presentation also includes a photo of a man when he was naked as a child. The presentation also talks about transgender bathroom issues and supporting men in women's spaces. All of this is available for everyone to watch online. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that this is incredibly disturbing and concerning, as well as not appropriate for the workplace? And in light of the Supreme Court's judgment last year, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission's recently published draft guidelines, how is the Welsh Government going to ensure public bodies are following the law and protecting women's spaces?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Following the law, in many ways, is the easy bit. This is a Government that will follow the law, and, as public organisations, we have to follow the law. There's no question behind that at all. What we have here also is something that has become divisive in recent years. And I would appeal to the Member's sense of political leadership in everything that she does to engage with this issue to show that leadership, which absolutely does mean listening to the concerns of people, who raise valid concerns, but also balance that against—. She mentions 'concerned members of staff'. We hear from very concerned trans people who feel that they are being disempowered and put at risk, even, by the current debate. And that, I think, is where political leadership comes from. I can't comment on the particular material that she mentioned because I'm not aware of what it is. But that Supreme Court ruling wasn't a victory of one side over another. I was listening at the time when the judgment was given. What it did usher in was a new era of the need for greater understanding between people who have divergent views. All of us have to be aware of that in trying to cool down the temperature on what has become a heated debate but also a very painful debate for many individuals.

Art Wright (Reform UK, Casnewydd Islwyn)

First Minister, it's now been 440 days since the Supreme Court ruled that the legal definition of a woman under the Equality Act 2010 referred to biological sex and not gender identity. Does the First Minister not agree that 440 days is a very long time in which to wait for the essential protections outlined in the ruling, which are still being denied to 51 per cent of the population and ignored across multiple sectors, including governmental, education, health and the commercial sector? Numerous cases across the UK are being brought forward and won, correctly, based on this ruling. The Equality and Human Rights Commission recently provided an updated code of practice for services, public functions and associations. This code has specific provisions for the creation of single-sex spaces. Do we wait and dither, allowing such cases to be brought here in Wales, or will the Welsh Government issue a definitive timeline on how and when they intend to update the policies and guidance in Wales in light of these developments? And does the First Minister respect the ruling of the Supreme Court?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As I said, what the Supreme Court's ruling did was usher in a new era for discussion around this, in which we can allow divisiveness to come to the fore, or we can seek to understand better the concerns and the realities for people on both sides of the debate.

On the waiting, waiting is literally a part of the publication of the EHRC code of practice, in that it is published and then we await to see what the response is. And if, at a certain point in time, which happens to be next month, there are no objections, then it gets put into practice. We as a Government are reviewing that draft, as it is a code of practice by EHRC, to assess the implications for the Welsh Government. We will act according to the law. We are a law-abiding Government. But we are also a Government that has values, that understands the very real concerns that some people have, but recognises also that that original judgment does not remove protections for trans people, for example, who remain protected from discrimination and harassment under gender reassignment, and we need to step up to protect them where they feel at risk.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I now call on the party leaders to question the First Minister. First of all, the leader of Reform UK, Dan Thomas.

Dan Thomas (Reform UK, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Diolch, Lywydd. The plight of our student nurses was highlighted again this week, and it's been reported that 400 student nurses and midwives have been told there's not a job waiting for them when they graduate, at a time when the NHS has serious nursing shortages. Now, the supplementary budget allocates £145 million to the NHS. Will any of that funding be used to guarantee student midwives and student nurses a job when they finish their training?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

There are some things, if I might say, that money can't buy. There's a specific problem that has arisen this year, which should not have arisen, but it has arisen because training numbers for this cohort who are looking for jobs in September this year were commissioned in 2022. Now, we are living now with the challenges posed by the over-commissioning back then. I recognise and am really concerned about how unsettling that is for graduates who haven't secured a post. That is why the Cabinet Minister for health brought partners together on 18 June, asked the system to move at pace to maximise opportunities, provide consistent support, improve planning for future cohorts. There are a number of measures being taken on reopening streamlining, ongoing national co-ordination by Health Education and Improvement Wales, identifying transitional flexible employment routes. But let's remind ourselves: we will help those graduating now to get jobs. They have careers in the NHS. We need them. But we have a problem that we face right now, which this Government is working around to quite rightly support those who are worried in a way that they shouldn't be, when they signed up to those courses in 2022.

Dan Thomas (Reform UK, Casnewydd Islwyn)

But, First Minister, that's not what these student nurses and midwives are being told. They genuinely are worried about their careers, and whether there is a job waiting for them. Now, I understand the situation is a legacy issue inherited from the Labour Party. But Plaid Cymru could choose a different path. It is Reform, at the moment, who is backing our student nurses and student midwives.

Now, regarding the Government's supplementary budget, it's clear from the initial reaction from all the opposition parties that, if voting matches the rhetoric, the Government will not have support for its supplementary budget, and it will not go through. Now, Plaid Cymru talks about transparency, so will the First Minister disclose if you are having any talks with other political parties, if there are any areas of compromise within the supplementary budget and whether you'd be willing to work with Reform?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member and I have met. Discussions will take place continuously across, through the—[Interruption.] Well, it really shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody that I have met all leaders of political parties in this Senedd. When I speak of wanting to be a co-operative Government, that means having conversations with leaders of Reform, the Conservatives, Labour and the Green Party. I'm sorry if that's come as a surprise to anybody.

Listen, this supplementary budget is the first opportunity for this Government to align the some space there is, within tight financial constraints, to align budgets with priorities that were set out and for which we have a mandate to put in place. But we recognise this is a minority Government, and that is why, when we appeal in the Senedd for people, Members here, to support those measures to stabilise and get to grips with and bring down waiting lists in the NHS, I would hope that that is something that the Member would be able to support. When I look at the measures being taken now to support families with the cost-of-living crisis, through expanded childcare, I'm hoping that that is something that can appeal to Members across this Senedd, and measures to improve school buildings and so on.

This isn't a Government that doesn't recognise the need to speak across this Chamber. This is a Government that is determined to put in place the programme on which we stood and which we know we will need the support of others to implement.

Dan Thomas (Reform UK, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Thank you. I welcomed the chance to have an introductory meeting with the First Minister, shortly after we were elected, but it was agreed that we wouldn't discuss policy. For transparency, I want to advise the Senedd of that, at least.

It's encouraging that the First Minister seems to have changed his mind about working with Reform, because, during the election, you said you wouldn't work with us. So, that is a welcome u-turn. Our red lines, though, would be to guarantee all student nurses and midwives a job—that would be a red line for us—when they finish their training. We would also want to increase spending on children with additional learning needs and we'd want to stop spending taxpayers' money abroad and invest that money on the Welsh NHS and Welsh children. So, those are our red lines.

But regardless of what happens with the supplementary budget, there have been hints that there will be a full budget coming to the Senedd in the autumn. [Interruption.] A full budget coming—[Interruption.] Well, I hope it does come. I hope it does come. The First Minister said that his manifesto was fully costed. So, will all the costings of all your pledges be detailed in the budget in the autumn?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'm going to drop a bombshell: there will be a budget published later this year. The hint—[Interruption.] There has been a sense—[Interruption.] It will happen, I can assure the Member. What we will do as an approach to that budget, as we've done now, is lay out, among challenging circumstances, what it is that we hope to achieve on behalf of and for the people of Wales. I appreciate that the Member has laid out health as a priority now. It wasn't mentioned by his party as a priority during the election that we've just fought, but I welcome the fact that that is seen as an important area now. That is exactly why it has been put front and centre of this supplementary budget, which is very important in order to do that work that we promised the people of Wales we would do, which is to build a sustainable health and care system fit for the future. It is up to all Members here to decide if that's something that they can support in this supplementary budget.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The leader of Welsh Labour, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

First Minister, between now and 2029, how much does your Government anticipate receiving from the UK Government in additional learning needs consequentials?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The one-off payment this year, of course, is one that we know is based on historic debt in England. Looking ahead to future years, two years from now, there is a signal of consequential funding. The Government that the Member used to be a member of himself knows full well that prioritisation as to how you spend that money are decisions taken by Governments of the day, in partnership with others, as needs be. But we'll concentrate right now on putting in place the measures that we believe can help both children in education, patients in the health service and families who need support with childcare.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you, First Minister. The answer is more than £0.5 billion—more than £0.5 billion that will come to the Welsh Government as a result of increased spending by the UK Government on additional learning needs. That is a huge additional sum that your Government will be receiving. Every one of the 22 local authorities in Wales is calling for this year's consequential to be passed to councils so that they can then pass it to schools for investment in children and in the teaching profession. Many of your Members, as I've said on numerous occasions, have been consistent in calling for more ALN money for the system. So, how much additional ALN funding are you willing to allocate for children and schools in this year's supplementary budget?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Those who have been in Government, Llywydd, will know that there are two sides of the ledger when it comes to budgets. There are consequentials, yes, from time to time, there are pressures, too. This Government has inherited significant pressures, which have to be addressed—and we have inherited those pressures from previous Governments—whilst taking a long-term and sustainable approach to the whole ALN system. The ALN pressures that we know we feel—families, children, local government—are not going to be resolved by a one-off payment this year; they are going to be addressed by long-term thinking in developing policy, which is what exactly my Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is doing. We owe those families nothing less than that.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Diolch, Llywydd. Will the First Minister outline what specific discussions the Welsh Government has had within the UK emissions trading scheme authority about the need to protect Welsh jobs and investment from the punitive impact of the carbon tax? We know from figures published just last week that industrial emissions fell by 25 per cent in 2024 due to the closure of Tata's coal-fired blast furnaces in Port Talbot. But, of course, it's nothing to celebrate, because not only has it wiped out, the carbon tax, our sovereign steel-making capacity here in Wales, we now are simply importing steel from overseas, from other more heavily polluting nations, and pushing our carbon-reduction plans into the bin. So, do you acknowledge that the current carbon tax framework is simply not working, that it's resulting in exporting emissions, exporting jobs and putting our national security at risk? And what are you and your Government now going to do within the UK emissions trading scheme authority to argue for a better and more sensible approach to net zero?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'd make this point first of all, Llywydd, that I have always called for a just transition when it comes to steel. We were asking for the protection of primary steel making in Port Talbot, not because we didn't see that this is a polluting industry—of course it is—but that there is a way of transitioning towards something that could protect jobs and investing in those cleaner ways of producing steel. Discussions are currently ongoing with the UK Government in relation to the wider European discussion, or debate, around emissions trading. We are determined to stand up for Welsh interests, making sure that we get as good a deal as possible for Wales from those discussions. That is not denying the impact of emissions on climate change. We're a Government that is determined to fight climate change in every way that we can, but we do that by making the case for a just transition at the same time.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Well, of course, you can make that case for a just transition from within the UK emissions trading scheme authority. That is the body that you have a seat on, and you are jointly responsible as a Government, along with the UK Government, the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, to make decisions that impact on the future of these arrangements here in Wales. And, of course, there has been a relentless and unrealistic focus on the race to net zero, which has not been just for many homes, for many businesses and many families that have lost jobs and lost their livelihoods as a result of this relentless pursuit.

Now, I recently undertook a visit to Valero's Pembroke refinery. It's one of only four refineries left in the UK; some have already taken the decision to close as a result of the carbon tax. About 1,000 jobs rely on that facility, about 15 per cent of Welsh exports are accounted as a result of the business that goes through that facility, and it supplies 15 per cent of the UK's transport fuels. It's a vitally important part of our national infrastructure, and any closure of that facility would cause significant damage, not just to our economy, but to our energy security and transport fuel security as well, and put it at risk of the volatility of international markets. Do you accept that now is the time to take a very different approach on this issue to make sure that the future of Valero and other heavy industry in Wales is not jeopardised by this relentless pursuit of net zero, which, frankly, isn't working?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

There's a difference of principle between us on this. I have made it clear, and I'll make it clear again, that this Government of mine and my enterprise Minister will do all they can to stand up for Welsh industry, and that means making the case, always, for a just transition. Yes, there are implications around emissions trading for that, but we take a broader view than that. Investing in our renewables industries for the future will create those jobs that will ultimately, in time, take the place of more polluting jobs in a just way. When we look at floating offshore wind, the meeting I had in Ireland last week with the company that is involved in the Erebus scheme—this will create thousands of jobs in Wales.

So, we look at the economic benefits, surely, of the transition that we need to make. And on the use of the word 'relentless', you might have noticed that it was a bit warm last week, right? Get used to this. This is the reality of climate change, and there is good reason why we need to be relentless in our pursuit of measures that we can take to protect the environment, whilst also looking after industry in Wales and building the industry of the future.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Questions 3 and 8 are grouped. First, question 3, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to strengthen food security? OQ64317

Peter Fox (Conservative, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

8. How is the Welsh Government strengthening food security and resilience? OQ64237

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Welsh Government is committed to introducing a national food strategy for Wales that will encompass food security, tackle food poverty and improve food literacy and health outcomes. As part of the first 100 days plan, work to appoint a ministerial working group to develop the strategy is under way, and further details will be provided by the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability in the coming weeks. The same response applies to question 8 from Peter Fox.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

First Minister, I welcome your answer on the importance of food security, and it's good to see that you're thinking about it. But you cannot, on the one hand, say that food security matters, it's your aim, you have a plan that would require as much farmland as possible, and then, on the other hand, allow prime agricultural land or food production land to be taken out of food production and used instead for large-scale solar developments. So, First Minister, which is it that you want?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I think my views on this are very, very public. I do not believe that BMV land, the best and most versatile land, should be used for large-scale solar. There are planning rules in place in Wales that mean that we should be protecting this land for food production. This is a Government that will want to uphold those rules that are in place for very good reason.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

First Minister, we have seen how fragile our food system can be, which is precisely why I brought forward my food Bill in 2022, to create a joined-up, long-term framework for how we produce, distribute and consume food in this country, not only ensuring our food security, but also addressing societal issues linked with malnutrition and obesity. It was sadly voted down when the past Labour Government and Liberal Democrat wouldn't allow it to continue, something I know that many of them still regret.

Now, I recognise that your Government has spoken positively about many of these same ambitions, with some initiatives already under way. But what remains absent is a single, coherent, deliverable plan that brings the whole food system together and looks at it holistically. So, First Minister, given the clear alignment between the principles set out in my Food (Wales) Bill and the ambitions your Government has expressed, will you now commit to bringing forward a comprehensive, overarching national food strategy for Wales, one that will guide the whole food system from farm to fork?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I like to keep my answers relatively brief, so I could answer with 'yes', but I'll give a little bit more than that too. And I'd like to commend the Member for the work that he did in the last Senedd, in proposing a way—through legislation, as it happens—to protect and develop the food sector in Wales. What we have said we will do—and my Minister for rural resilience is already getting down to business on this—is we are going to be bringing in exactly that kind of national food strategy, looking to create a joined-up system for production and processing through to retail and public sector procurement, so that we can strengthen supply chains, improve resilience, increase the availability of Welsh food, supporting our food producers as we do so. The focus has to be on improving access to affordable, healthy and nutritious food, which is why this is of interest to my Ministers for health, and this is something that I have always been eager to develop, and which we will now press on with at pace.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

First Minister, the record-breaking heatwaves and erratic weather patterns that we have seen this past month are a direct threat to our long-term food security. Recent research by the Green Alliance shows that extreme weather and climate impacts added an estimated £361 a year to the average UK household food bill, while reports from the Autonomy Institute warn that unchecked heatwaves and floods could drive up food prices by a further 34 per cent by 2050—shocks that hit our lowest-income families hardest. Given that true food security relies on a healthy natural environment, healthy soils and thriving ecosystems, and noting that, last week, the Minister for rural resilience officially announced work on a new climate and nature plan and a national food strategy for Wales, what immediate action is this Welsh Government taking to ensure that these strategies protect real lives by protecting families from skyrocketing food bills, supporting local farmers to adapt and using public procurement to get healthy Welsh-grown produce onto school plates?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I associate myself with the concerns raised about the impact of climate change and how that will hit food production. I think the magic, in many ways, comes in the interaction between those different elements that the Minister and others have already outlined. Absolutely, one of the core concerns that we have now is the impact of climate change on the money—scarce money, in far too many cases—in the pockets of the people of Wales. When we look at what the national food strategy aims to do—supporting Welsh producers and food businesses to grow in a way that recognises the cost pressures on families and households—that's very, very important, and we'll have to look for ways also of supporting the agriculture industry to adapt to the ever-changing environment. We have to be relentless in all our approaches to the climate challenge.

Zaynub Akbar (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Building on a lot of what's already been said, Wales produces world-class food, yet too many people still struggle to access nutritious, affordable meals, while our economy fails to capture the full value of what is grown, reared, caught and processed here in Wales. A new national food strategy would help strengthen supply chains, improve food security and use public procurement to support Welsh food and drink producers. It should also expand food literacy, back community food hubs, increase horticultural production and ensure healthier meals across our schools, hospitals and other public services. Taken together, these measures would keep more value in our local communities, improve access to good food and build a stronger Welsh food system. Does the First Minister agree that Wales now needs a comprehensive national food strategy to deliver on those specific aims?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Absolutely, and those different elements mentioned by the Member do very much play into the rationale and reasoning behind the need for this food strategy. We have a real eye on the future here, as the Member suggested, and I should say that the Cabinet Minister has held early discussions with key stakeholders, including the future generations commissioner, covering the national food strategy. Preparing for the future and making ourselves fit for the future does very much include elements such as—on the fringes of the debate, you could argue, but we need to bring them into the core of it—food literacy, so that people understand why it is that we're asking them, essentially, to engage with food in a different way.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve animal welfare? OQ64236

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

We want to build on the high standards we already have in Wales. In our manifesto, we said we'll develop a science-led animal health and welfare plan. We'll work with stakeholders, operational partners, industry and the third sector to develop our new approach for Wales.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

How we treat animals is a sign of the type of society we are and want to be. If we allow animals to be mistreated, either by ignorance or cruelty, then it reflects badly on us as a society. We must remember that the evidence from multiple scientific studies has helped us to understand that a wide range of animals are sentient beings. This means they have the capacity to experience positive and negative feelings such as pleasure, joy, pain and distress. Progress has been made in recent years in Wales, but a lot more is left to be done. I believe we need to legislate on animal welfare, with legislation to include the microchipping of cats, a ban on tethering horses, a ban on individuals keeping primates, ending the cage breeding of game birds, banning Larsen traps, and rabbit ownership only after a short training course where individuals can show they understand the needs of rabbits. Will the Welsh Government bring in this legislation?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I appreciate that the Member has long taken an interest in animal welfare issues. We are a nation of animal lovers and we need champions for the welfare and well-being of animals in our Senedd. Our manifesto set out our ambition for a new regulatory framework. We have said that we want to set high standards for the treatment of animals. Legislation is one route, and one that we will always be open to considering. The last Senedd did legislate on greyhound racing, of course. Cat microchipping is an example where the jury is out a bit on the effectiveness of legislating, in that, without legislation, we have similar levels of cat microchipping in Wales as they do in England, where they do have legislation. What we always need to do as a Government is monitor. If we’re lagging behind or we feel we need another string to our bow, well let’s look at other measures that we can take.

Cai Parry-Jones (Reform UK, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

First Minister, your party supported the banning of greyhound racing in Wales. As a result, it will be fully banned in Wales as early as next April. I am seriously concerned that Plaid Cymru's thirst for banning British cultural sports will not stop here. Plaid Cymru MP Liz Saville said a few months ago that Grand National-style horse racing should be banned. First Minister, horse racing is not only a cultural part of our British identity but an economic one, generating hundreds of millions of pounds for Wales, supporting jobs from stables to tracks to bars at the races. Will you confirm to the Senedd today that you will not be moving to ban horse racing with jumps here in Wales?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I'm afraid I have to correct the Member, Llywydd. The vote on greyhound racing was a free vote, and I believe it was for most parties in the last Senedd.

Becca Martin (Plaid Cymru, Clwyd)

5. What plans does the Welsh Government have to provide support for unpaid carers? OQ64295

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Support for unpaid carers is essential. We're improving outcomes through short breaks, financial assistance and well-being services to provide practical help. At the same time, we're developing a new national strategy, shaped by what carers have told us matters most to them. We'll improve the lives of unpaid carers by ensuring they're recognised, valued and able to access consistent, high-quality support, including respite, wherever they live in Wales.

Becca Martin (Plaid Cymru, Clwyd)

Diolch. First Minister, a constituent of mine in Clwyd is currently providing round-the-clock care for his wife, who is living with multiple serious health conditions. Like so many unpaid carers across Wales, he is struggling with the emotional strain, financial pressure and sheer exhaustion that caring responsibilities can bring, often while feeling overlooked and unsupported by public services.

The First Minister will be aware of the financial pressures facing unpaid carers, pressures that all too often push individuals to the brink of poverty, with some forced to make impossible choices between basic necessities, such as heating and eating. Will he therefore commit to pressing the UK Government to uprate carers allowance to a level that properly reflects the vital contribution unpaid carers make and to ensure that they are no longer left shouldering such profound responsibilities without adequate financial support?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member describes so eloquently the pressures felt by thousands and thousands of carers the length and breadth of Wales. We support the work that they do and recognise that our health service wouldn't be able to manage without them. That is why actions that we take as Governments, both within our powers and in our negotiations with the UK Government, are so, so important. I of course recognise the stress experienced by that constituent and all those unpaid carers, and I can confirm that the Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women's Health has written to Sir Stephen Timms, Minister of State for Social Security and Disability, to request a meeting. Our intention very much is to press the UK Government to make carers allowance fairer and paid at a higher rate. We know there's an ongoing review of carers allowance, and we'll be making our views very clear, as carers the length and breadth of our country would expect us to.

David Hughes (Reform UK, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

First Minister, I'm sure you will agree with me that unpaid carers are the backbone of our health and social care system. They save the public purse billions of pounds each year, yet many still struggle to access the respite and short break services they desperately need. What additional funding is the Welsh Government providing to local authorities and third sectors to expand those services, and when will the unpaid carers see that support delivered? I'd like to make a quote from an unpaid carer: 'Unpaid carers across Wales give so much but get very little support in exchange.' Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

It's a story we all as elected Members hear—people feeling that they just don't get the support that they need, and there's, frankly, never enough that we can do, given how much support is deserved by Government to those who give of their lives to care for loved ones. Respite care clearly is very, very important. We're working as a Government with local authorities to provide consistent and timely assessments on one hand, greater respite support across Wales on the other. There is an improvement project in place now. We will consider other levers open to us if we don't see sufficient progress on that. But, in the meantime, referring back to my first answer, that pressure that we can, hopefully, bring to bear on UK Government, working with other partners across the UK—we need somehow for that to make a difference in terms of carers allowance levels.

Rebeca Phillips (Plaid Cymru, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Prif Weinidog, Neath Port Talbot has the highest rate of people providing 50-plus hours of unpaid care in Wales. I met with unpaid carers from across the county in Cimla recently, where a number of people highlighted the financial strain of providing that care. Do you agree with me, therefore, that, in order to better support unpaid carers in Wales, carers allowance should be devolved and increased in line with Scotland?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Fifty-plus hours—it's not even a full-time job, it's more than that, and so many people experience the same. As I say, to ensure that we can design and deliver truly made-in-Wales social protections, reflecting the needs and values of our communities, we will press the UK Government to devolve welfare powers. The Deputy First Minister has written to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to discuss how we can work together to deliver on our ambitions for a benefits system that meets Wales's needs, that's driven by entitlements and supports our shared objectives on tackling poverty. But, whilst we work towards devolving powers over welfare, we will work to improve, as I say, the existing Welsh benefits system to ensure people can claim all their entitlements, including carers allowance at the current level.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Prif Weinidog, so many people in Wales rely on unpaid carers, and short breaks can be a real lifeline for those unpaid carers, giving those they care for and themselves the breathing space that they need. In 2022, the previous Welsh Labour Government created the short breaks scheme, and this scheme reached many carers who had not had any other form of break, and who weren't receiving any other kind of support. How is this Welsh Government going to ensure that carers get the respite, with those short breaks, that they need and deserve?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

As well as the measures that I've mentioned we're taking in putting pressure on the UK Government, I'm pleased to support that Welsh Government short breaks scheme, which provides, as you say, unpaid carers across Wales with opportunities just to take that break, to let them step away from what are often very physically demanding caring duties. It's a scheme that's been in place now—. I think it's about four years since the scheme was introduced. It's delivered by Carers Trust Wales, regional partnership boards and also in conjunction with local third sector organisations. We want to be able to support them to make sure that as many people access that respite as possible, within scarce resource, but, again, making that case for carers allowance to help those families and individuals too.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have so many people asking questions on this important issue, and it's good to have cross-party support. I just want to focus on young carers, if I may. Twenty-two thousand young carers in Wales; that's one in six in our secondary schools. Young people like 16-year-old Ollie from Bridgend, who's cared for his younger brother for the past 10 years. They face a number of challenges: firstly, they cannot be children because their responsibilities are to care; secondly, there is very, very little help and support, because there are no assessments available to them, despite the Act. We're looking at assessments being at about the level of 2.67 per cent, of which half will receive support. So, straight away, we've got an issue there with our local authorities. It's not a protected characteristic. Finally, we've got those post-16-year-olds who are looking for support to continue in education, but can't do that because they have to forfeit their carers allowance. So, a number of issues for our young carers across Wales. I'd just like to ask you, Prif Weinidog: what will your Government do to help those young carers? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I appreciate that further question, and the Member mentioned Ollie. It reminded me of Jet, who's a young man from Radyr Comprehensive School on the outskirts of Cardiff. I sent him and his fellow pupils a message at their A-levels graduation ceremony last week. Jet has been looking after his family, whilst himself looking after other young carers within his school environment, and I know that the work he's done is greatly, greatly appreciated.

Again, respite is very, very important. Support on a whole host of different levels is important, but we want our children to feel that they are genuinely supported, not just applauded for the work that they do. The Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women’s Health will be signing the young persons covenant to make our commitment to young carers very, very clear, given some statistics suggest that nearly 20 per cent of young people in schools in Wales have some level of caring responsibility. This is something that we have to take very, very seriously, for the pressures on them now and the impact that not having support could have on the rest of their lives.

Sera Evans (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s review of higher education? OQ64284

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

A review of higher education is one of our commitments for the first 100 days of Government, and I’m pleased to say that the work is advancing well. The Deputy Minister for Skills and Tertiary Education will share more details on this in due course.

Sera Evans (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you for that response, First Minister. We all in this Chamber know that higher education in Wales faces significant financial challenges for a number of reasons, while the proportion of those aged 18 choosing to go to university continues to decrease. Recent data from UCAS shows that the access rates in Wales for higher education are at their lowest level for a decade. My constituency, Afan Ogwr Rhondda, has the largest participation gap of any constituency in Wales, which is a very serious situation that this Government has inherited. How will the Welsh Government ensure that tackling this participation gap between learners from the most and least deprived areas of Wales are a central part of this sector-wide review of higher education?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The participation gap is something that should concern us all. I forget the exact location, but there was a statistic I was looking at in recent months that showed that 18 per cent of pupils from one secondary school or area of the Gwent valleys were going to university, and 80 per cent of pupils from one specific secondary school in Cardiff were going to university. It's frightening that life chances are being set out in such a way where there is that much difference in the opportunity available.

Participation is one of the areas that will be addressed in the review. It's not the only element of it. How we ensure that students across the board have adequate support in HE is important, and supporting our HE institutions is entirely crucial. Unless steps are taken, it's not difficult to imagine a situation where there would be no higher education institutions for pupils to attend in Wales. We're not quite at that point yet, but that's the gravity of the situation that we are facing. Increasing opportunity for participation so that these students can become students, can plan their lives and set ambitions for themselves in HE institutions in Wales, is part of the solution to the viability of our HE institutions. So, there's a circle that we need to close here. The Deputy Minister will be making an announcement very soon as to how these issues will be taken forward.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Question 7, Anna Nicholl.

Anna Nicholl (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Diolch. How do we ensure renewable energy plans take local communities' voices into account and that these local communities benefit directly from the energy transition?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

That's the supplementary question, which I'm happy to respond to straight away.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Would you like to place the initial question, please?

Anna Nicholl (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Yes—

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

I can help you.

Anna Nicholl (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

If anybody's got a copy of it, please.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Prif Weinidog, help.

Anna Nicholl (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

7. How will the Welsh Government ensure that the transition to clean energy benefits local communities in Ceredigion Penfro? OQ64288

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you very much. First Minister.

Anna Nicholl (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Is that right?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Our national energy strategy will set out how Wales will capture more of the economic, social and community benefits from clean energy. Our Welsh public energy company will support local ownership and community energy schemes, creating skilled jobs and delivering reinvestment in places hosting new energy infrastructure across Wales.

Anna Nicholl (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Perhaps we'll adjust the social media clip for that. [Laughter.]

I know many Members have seen the People's Emergency Briefing, and I urge those who haven't to do so. It shows the devastating financial costs of delaying action on climate change, not least for household budgets, and the positive economic opportunities if we act quickly.

In Ceredigion Penfro, the transition to clean energy is creating big opportunities. This goes beyond mirroring fossil fuel systems. It's an opportunity to reshape our economy, working with businesses and communities to generate prosperity across Wales. But there's also risk. Communities are concerned they will actually have no meaningful voice to shape this change, and that benefits will flow out of Wales. How will this Government support real community voice, as well as research and development and innovation to enable small and medium-sized businesses and community enterprises to drive local solutions and secure economic benefits in Ceredigion Penfro and, indeed, across Wales?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

That's the positivity that I really want us all to embrace when it comes to the future of energy in Wales: talking about the positive economic opportunities, some of them very, very large; talking about the offshore wind opportunities in the Celtic sea, and thousands of jobs created. But there are far more modest projects that can bring real benefits to supply chains in Wales, where companies can work together to maximise the opportunities flowing from renewables opportunities, but also for communities.

And the way that we lock into the system the community benefits happens in a number of different ways. It's through having that one publicly owned energy company for Wales that always has communities at the front of its mind when it's working on the future of energy strategy in Wales. It's when we look at how community ownership schemes can create a sense of real, literal and metaphorical ownership over energy schemes in their communities. We must adapt the way that we have been doing things and have an eye on how we can do things differently in the future.

I have no doubt that for Ceredigion Penfro, as for many other parts of Wales, there are hugely untapped economic gains to be made from getting this right, which is why cracking on with a new energy strategy for Wales is something that's keeping my energy, connectivity and enterprise Minister's time very, very occupied. I got your roles in the wrong order there: the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy.

Paul Marr (Reform UK, Ceredigion Penfro)

9. Does the Welsh Government support the provision of puberty blockers to 11-year-old children? OQ64316

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Where clinically appropriate, puberty suppressing hormones can be prescribed for children in Wales who started treatment prior to the UK Government’s Order restricting their prescribing other than through the NHS, and to children accessing NHS gender services, as part of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence research study when that commences. We continue to be led by the evidence to inform gender identity services for our young people in Wales.

Paul Marr (Reform UK, Ceredigion Penfro)

First Minister, thank you so much for your response. The Cass review makes it clear that there are significant uncertainties around the long-term safety of these treatments for children, including potential impacts on bone health, fertility and brain development. Given those risks, can you explain why any child in Wales should be exposed to medical interventions where the evidence base is so limited? And what specific steps will your Government take to ensure that vulnerable young people are not subject to avoidable harm?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Member references the Cass review. I'm afraid to tell him that the author of the Cass review is supportive of this research, saying that it is about reducing harm. This is a careful study, an academic study, that is about reducing harm to children and young people. I would have thought that that is something that, as a whole, we would eager to sign up to.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

10. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the tourism industry in Ceredigion Penfro? OQ64286

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

The Welsh Government is supporting tourism in Ceredigion Penfro through a wide range of Visit Wales activity. We're determined to make the most of opportunities that arise from tourism, and to do so in a way that is sustainable both for the sector itself, which is so important to Wales, and for Welsh communities.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

First Minister, west Wales is home to some of the most spectacular natural landscapes in the world, and, as you know, the tourism industry plays a huge role in sustaining local communities and the economy in Ceredigion Penfro. Sadly, tourism operators and accommodation providers in my constituency are under increasing pressure, and one of the most pressing issues at the moment is the 182-day occupancy threshold. Indeed, data from the Valuation Office Agency shows that self-catering business numbers in Wales have fallen by nearly 31 per cent, and so we need to see some action to prevent further decline. The Cabinet Minister for Finance has confirmed that exemptions will be coming, but what the industry needs is a change of policy, not tinkering around the edges to benefit a few providers. Therefore, First Minister, will your Government listen to tourism providers in west Wales and commit to reviewing the whole 182-day threshold policy before more self-catering businesses are forced to close?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Bangor Conwy Môn)

Llywydd, this Government has made it clear that we will be keeping those 182 days under review because we need to be measuring what unintended consequences may have arisen, and there's still a short time since the measure was brought in. We remember why it was brought in. The previous threshold, 70 days, was worthless. We needed to have a genuine push to identify who the businesses were that were the heartbeat of our tourism sector in the letting sector, so that they could be supported and people didn't play the system, perhaps, as some may have been tempted to do because the threshold was so low. We want to make sure that that threshold is right. The exemptions are very, very important. There are some properties that have been caught in this particular policy that were never meant to have been caught in it. Barn conversions, for example—places that could never have been homes for permanent dwelling. We've made it clear that we will take action on that. On the 182-day review, I've genuinely given assurance that we want to make sure that it's at the right level.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you very much, First Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We move now to item 2, questions to the Counsel General. I'm speaking slowly in the hope that the Counsel General will enter the Chamber.

We move to questions to the Counsel General. Question 1 and question 6 have been grouped. Question 1, Sarah Cooper-Lesadd.

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Reform UK, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

1. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding its powers to extend corporate parenting responsibilities to a wider range of public bodies, including bodies whose functions are not devolved, in light of the provisions of the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Act 2026? OQ64254 [R]

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Reform UK, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

6. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided the Welsh Government regarding how the corporate parenting framework under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 compares, in legal effect and enforceability, with the strengthened statutory duties now in force in England? OQ64255

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Reform UK, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

The Government sought consent for a range of provisions in the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, but not corporate parenting. The irony is this: Westminster placed those duties on the non-devolved bodies in Wales—police, youth justice—so a Welsh care leaver is already protected there, but it is our own devolved bodies, our health boards, that we've left on a charter they sign only if they choose to. No-one doubts Wales's right to do things their own way, but doing it our own way can't mean doing it less. So, I'm asking for his advice, I'm not asking him to defend the Government, only a point of constitutional fact: was there anything in law stopping this Senedd protecting our own bodies as Westminster protected theirs, or was it simply a choice to leave Welsh children less protected by their own Government than by Westminster?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd.

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Reform UK, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

What legal advice has the Counsel General provided the Welsh Government regarding how the corporate parenting framework under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 compares, in legal effect and enforceability, with the strengthened statutory duties now in force in England?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Sarah, if you could also follow up with your supplementary now, immediately.

Sarah Cooper-Lesadd (Reform UK, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Okay, that's fine. You speak of the voluntary charter, and that's all very well and good. But I just find it incredibly sad, as a care-experienced young person myself, that the rights in England for a care-experienced young person to bring these authorities to account are so much weaker in Wales. I just find it absolutely astounding. I respect your intervention here, and I respect what you're saying, but I am simply asking for those bodies beyond local authorities—. The only thing binding them is a charter if they choose to sign it. This is a simple legal fact, true anywhere. A voluntary charter creates little enforceable duty. Will the Counsel General confirm that, as the law stands, a care leaver in Wales has less enforceable rights against those devolved bodies than if a care leaver was living in England?

Kiera Marshall (Plaid Cymru, Caerdydd Penarth)

I want to thank the Member for raising this issue, because I know it's not only an issue close to her heart, but it's an important issue for so many care-experienced young people in Wales. I wanted to use this opportunity to raise a specific concern I have regarding the status of adopted young people. Those that are in care or have been in care have their experience recognised and, therefore, are entitled to some level of support. However, this is not the same for people who have been adopted, and they then lose their status as care experienced. Despite this, adoption is still a different form of care. I've heard first-hand from James Evans, a young man in Cardiff who was adopted and now advocates for the rights of adopted young people, how his experiences were too often forgotten and his unique trauma was not addressed. Like James, many adopted people feel left behind without adequate support and a lack of recognition for what they've gone through. Could I ask the Counsel General what legal advice they have provided the Welsh Government on the legal status of adopted people?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

2. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government about putting the Sewel Convention on a statutory footing? OQ64260

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Thank you very much for that response and welcome to your role.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Counsel General, the Sewel convention states that Westminster will not normally legislate on devolved matters without consent. The difficulty lies in those words—'not normally'. Because the Supreme Court has confirmed that Sewel is a political convention, not a legally binding rule, it has been overridden repeatedly since the EU referendum, including 11 occasions where Westminster legislated without consent, and five further cases where the UK and Welsh Governments disagreed over whether consent was required.

In its current form, Sewel allows Westminster to disregard the democratic mandate of this Senedd. How therefore will the Welsh Government take forward the recommendation of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales that the UK Government should legislate to require devolved consent for any change to devolved powers, subject only to agreed exceptions such as international obligations, defence or national security? Diolch.

Tom Montgomery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

For the convention to be put on the statute books, you need consent from the Westminster Government as well. What advice would the Counsel General give to the Welsh Government if the Westminster Government decides it is not in favour of turning the convention into statutory legislation?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

I now call the party spokespeople to question the Counsel General. First of all, Reform UK spokesperson, Adrian Mason.

Adrian Mason (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Counsel General, may I welcome you to your post? You've had a long and distinguished career, and I say sincerely that this Government is fortunate to be able to call upon your continued service. In your political life, you have been clear in the past about the change you want to see for Wales. But, as Counsel General, you now stand in a new place. Your duty is not to party line, or to political ends, but to law and public interest. As shadow counsel general, my task is to test the law that this Government brings forward. I hope our dealings can be serious, fair, and based on law, as opposed to party point-scoring. With that in mind, Counsel General, will you assure this Senedd that, where the law and political ambition point in opposite directions, it is the law that will guide your advice to Ministers, and will you say 'no' to them?

Adrian Mason (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Okay, I'll stick to the law here now. Counsel General, people in Wales should expect major changes to the law to be made in this Chamber in the open and after proper scrutiny. But Henry VIII powers allow Ministers to change Acts later through regulations, as you well know. This may be convenient for Government, but it can weaken scrutiny by the Senedd. So, would you give a clear assurance that, where Welsh Bills contain such powers, you will insist that they are limited, justified and subject to the strongest possible scrutiny?

Adrian Mason (Reform UK, Clwyd)

Thank you, Counsel General. You've had an interest in justice and the future of Wales for a long time, and I do respect that. However, I remain concerned about your party's constitutional direction. Changes to the law, the courts or the powers of this place must be judged by plain tests: what issues will they address, what will they cost, who will be in charge, and have the people of Wales clearly supported them? So, will you accept that any major change must be clear, costed and put to the people in a way they can understand? And given Plaid Cymru's stated aim of independence, can you ensure the Senedd that you will not support change by legal or political stealth, but will be fully open with the Welsh people in the transparent way they're entitled to expect?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The Welsh Labour spokesperson, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Diolch, Lywydd. What analysis has the Counsel General made of the standard of court buildings in Wales? I have been told that a number of the court buildings in Wales are in a very poor state of repair. Has the Counsel General discussed the state of the court buildings in Wales with Lady Carr, the head of the judiciary of England and Wales? Has the Counsel General discussed the state of the court buildings in Wales with the Lord Chancellor? And will the Counsel General report to the Senedd proposals to improve the fabric of court buildings in Wales?

Mike Hedges (Labour, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you for that response. Lady Carr is well aware of the problems; she reported that to a Senedd committee in the last Senedd.

My next question is: a lot can be achieved without legislation, including what happened with comprehensive education, but some things need legislation. Areas that need legislation include statutory bodies. Support staff are very important to the running of a school. Schools could not run effectively without them. I've seen it first-hand as a school governor—a membership that I'm declaring for the record. Will the Counsel General and Plaid Cymru support my colleague Lynne Neagle's Member's legislative proposal to create in law a school support staff negotiating body?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I welcome you, Counsel General, to your new role and say how fondly I remember the times we worked together for the improvement of care for veterans in Wales during your tenure as a Member of Parliament? And I hope that we can have an equally constructive relationship here in the Senedd and in this Chamber.

Just last week, Counsel General, the UK Government's grooming gangs inquiry identified the first locations that it now intends to undertake some investigations and work in. Unfortunately, not one of those locations was here in Wales, and that's very, very disappointing because we know from previous inquiries that have taken place, most notably the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, which was led by Professor Jay, that there was grooming gang activity in the Swansea area. We know that there's a live case ongoing about grooming gang activity in Rhyl at the moment, which, obviously, I wouldn't expect you to comment on, but we also know from the testimony of victims of grooming gangs and sexual trafficking that that has taken place in other parts of rural Wales as well. Can I ask you, Counsel General, what discussions you have had with those responsible for the inquiry about the engagement of Wales in its important work to make sure that no stone is left unturned in identifying the scale of these problems in Wales and the action that can be taken to prevent it happening in the future?

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

I'm very pleased and heartened to hear your response there. It is important, of course, for the victims of these grooming gangs that we get answers and that we are able to hold those people to account who have failed them. Not least of those victims, of course, is Emily Vaughn, who has spoken powerfully about her awful experiences having been raped hundreds of times by individuals involved in these gangs and having been trafficked from one place to another, and from Wales into other parts of the United Kingdom, in order to suffer that abuse that she experienced.

Now, of course, we understand from the work that's already taken place that some of the people who were supposed to be protecting vulnerable young girls mainly, but sometimes boys too, that some of the reason that those individuals were able to get away with those crimes for such a long time was snobbery because these people sometimes, the victims, came from poor backgrounds and were written off as being troublesome individuals. Some of it was cowardice, not being prepared to call out activity in certain ethnic groups for fear of being accused of racism. And unfortunately, as a result, many of those individuals felt abandoned. Can I ask you, Counsel General, will you also, in addition to reaching out and working with colleagues across the rest of the United Kingdom, reach out to some of the victims of these gangs here in Wales, have conversations with them about the way that they want the Welsh Government to influence this inquiry? And should you feel that the UK inquiry is not going to get to the bottom of the problems that those individuals want to be dealt with, will you give independent advice to the Government and won't fall shy of calling for a Wales-wide inquiry into those areas for which the Welsh Government is responsible, should that be necessary?

Steve Bayliss (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

3. What role does the Counsel General have in ensuring public bodies in Wales comply with their legal duties? OQ64242

Steve Bayliss (Reform UK, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, Counsel General. I accept that Wales has an extensive framework of accountability in place: the courts, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, the Auditor General for Wales and the Information Commissioner. Each has an important role to play, but the rule of law begins with Government itself. Through my own scrutiny work and freedom of information requests, I have seen how questions can arise over transparency, governance and compliance with legal duties. In one internal review into a series of my environmental information requests related to Community Energy Wales, the Welsh Government accepts that it has grouped five separate requests together, failed to explain the basis for doing so in its original response and apologised for that oversight. That raises a much broader constitutional question. As the Welsh Government's law officer, what assurance can you give this Senedd that Ministers, Government departments and publicly funded bodies comply with their legal duties from the outset, rather than leaving citizens to fight through complaints, internal reviews and appeals to secure the outcome the law already requires?

Catherine Cullen (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

4. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the capacity of the Office of the Legislative Counsel to support the Government's legislative programme in an expanded 96-Member Senedd? OQ64245

Catherine Cullen (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Following the historic May 2026 election, this Chamber has grown from 60 to 96 Members. The structural expansion fundamentally alters the legislative dynamic of our Parliament. With more Members taking their seats, we will inevitably see a sharp rise in committee inquiries, a higher volume of amendments and a greater appetite for Member-proposed backbench Bills. With the movement in the Chamber sometimes slow and often delayed until the autumn, a larger Parliament can only pass high-quality bilingual laws if the infrastructure behind it is prepared. Could the Counsel General outline what steps he is taking to ensure that the office of the counsel is adequately resourced, staffed and prepared to handle the increased drafting pressure without causing delays to the Government's own agenda?

Andrew Griffin (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

5. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the extent to which cross-border healthcare arrangements between Wales and England are underpinned by administrative agreements, or by enforceable statutory or contractual obligations? OQ64238

Andrew Griffin (Reform UK, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Counsel General, I'm not overly clear from your response where the legal certainty lies, so can you clarify whether you are satisfied that current cross-border healthcare arrangements would withstand a change in legislative competence without requiring renegotiation and, if not, what is the legal risk to patients in the interim?

Elwyn Vaughan (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Welcome to the Counsel General to his new role here today. I'll ask this question in English, to the great surprise of many.

Elwyn Vaughan (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

We hear a great deal about the cross-border health issue in Powys, however, what we don't hear much about is the fact that, last year, NHS England did a revaluation of emergency care costs, leading to increased fees over and above the normal inflationary costs et cetera, which are underwritten by the Government. This led to an additional cost of £3.8 million last year, and it's likely to be an extra £4 million in 2026-27. On top of that, Wye Valley NHS Trust is classified by NHS England as a rural area, and gets a premium. However, they then automatically expect Powys to also pay them a premium, which results, to date, to a £13 million bill.

These are the issues creating huge pressures on Powys health board. What legal advice can the Counsel General provide the Welsh Government to help address these cross-border issues? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Welcome to your new position, Counsel General.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Thank you very much for raising this issue. I just want to refer back to an issue that I raised on this concern with the First Minister, where he acknowledged the unfairness in the waiting system facing Powys patients, and that he recognised it as a matter of equity. He said:

'we will have the interests of the people of Powys at heart.'

That actually sits quite uneasily with the Powys patients, because that is not what is happening. We hear that the buck is being passed, and I'll be absolutely honest and respectful to you, but we're hearing that from you as well. You're talking about frameworks, you're talking about seamless services. These words mean nothing to Powys patients who are waiting to have their operations, which will relieve them of pain.

You mentioned that there is a statutory framework in place in order to look at the services, so my challenge to you in your role is: will you change and challenge those statutory frameworks in order to allow Powys patients who live on the border access to English hospitals in the same waiting time that English patients have? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Diolch. And we're very grateful to you, Counsel General, for pointing out the distinction between your role and the role of the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility in a portfolio area as well. That was helpful indeed.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

[Inaudible.]—Llywydd. I'm so sorry, I'm sure you didn't mean to say this, but you referred to me as 'a lady', and I really don't find that acceptable.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jane.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Diolch, and we note the apology as well on the record. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, Jane.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

We now move on to question 7. Gwyn Williams.

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

Thank you, Llywydd. And congratulations, Counsel General, on your new role.

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

7. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding its powers to challenge planning cases approved by local authorities despite strong local opposition? OQ64265

Gwyn Williams (Plaid Cymru, Gŵyr Abertawe)

The reason I specifically mention this is that, since I've entered this Chamber—well, not physically today, but over the past six weeks—I've had more e-mails about the Kilvey Hill issue in Swansea than perhaps any other issue. Swansea, I would say, though I am biased, of course, is one of the most strangely unique and uniquely strange cities in the world, and Kilvey Hill is the most strangely beautiful place, perhaps, in the whole of Swansea, which is saying a lot, is what I say. There are multiple campaigns that oppose the development on the hill because of the natural flora and fauna of the hill as well, and also the fact that Swansea used to produce 90 per cent of the copper in the British Empire. The soil of the hill became so uniquely poisoned that the plants that currently grow there are pretty much unique to that hill. And also my own son, before he went to the Royal Artillery, used to train on that hill as part of the military preparation college. So, although I gather that this is possibly the most high-powered legal advice the local campaigns can ever ask, what advice would you give, perhaps, to the Save Kilvey Hill campaign in your role as Counsel General?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Finally, question 8, Lindsay Whittle.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Diolch, Lywydd. Counsel General, good afternoon, and I hope my question will not get you the sack.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

8. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the devolution of the Crown Estate? OQ64256

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Thank you, Counsel General, for your answer. And I know that we on these benches, and maybe others too, share this Government's frustration that Wales remains at a disadvantage compared to Scotland, which has of course enjoyed the benefits of its Crown Estate revenues since 2017. Devolution of the Crown Estate could mean millions of pounds in profits that we can invest directly back into Welsh coastal communities, supporting pressures on our local government, and support jobs and manufacturing in our green energy sector. What more could you ask? What steps, then, can the Welsh Government take to pursue further the devolution of this vital asset legally?

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Thank you, Counsel General. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Thank you, Counsel General. You've done well do adapt to the conventions of this Chamber and to avoid being dragged into portfolio areas, even though Members have tempted you there, very strongly indeed. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

3. Business Statement and Announcement

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Item 3 is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business: an oral statement has been added to today's agenda on the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement, which is available to all Members electronically.

Llŷr Powell (Reform UK, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni)

Wales is in the middle of what is a housing crisis. I'm aware that the Government brought forward its house building targets, but I was wondering if the Trefnydd could convince the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning to come forward to explain what the Government's proposal will be on empty homes. In my own constituency of Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni, there are over 2,000 empty homes that people have to pass now, and, as well, there are around 1,200 long-term empty homes that have been empty for about 12 months. I'd be grateful if the Government could come forward and explain to the Chamber what its plans are on bringing these houses back to life and seeing if we can get constituents into them as soon as possible.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, I thank the Member for raising that issue. Clearly, you were here when the Minister made the priorities statement and so on. There are going to be other opportunities to ask her questions and to start scrutinising through the committees as well. This is an issue that we all have an interest in, I'm sure, because housing is an issue that we will all be receiving in casework. And in terms of vacant homes, we need to address that issue and, certainly, there are plans under way. So, there will be an opportunity to scrutinise and to question the Minister, that is certain, and that will happen through the committees and directly through questions to her.

Shav Taj (Labour, Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf)

Trefnydd, will you make some time for a statement from the relevant Minister updating the Senedd on the Welsh Government's new industrial strategy and, of course, the associated skills strategy that really should run alongside it, including some detail on when that will be published, and, crucially, what are we going to be expecting in terms of delivery of real, good-quality, fair work jobs?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

May I thank the Member for that question? Clearly, you will have heard the relevant Minister making a priorities statement very recently—that was given by Adam Price as Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy. There are commitments in our 100-day plan too, and we will update the Senedd as that work proceeds.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Ceredigion Penfro)

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Welsh Government on epilepsy services across Wales. Now, last year, Epilepsy Action Wales's 'Seizing Change' report found that every single health board in Wales was failing to meet waiting time guidelines for treatment after a seizure. That report highlighted that patients in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area were waiting up to 36 weeks to be seen, the longest waiting time on record, where National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines actually say the follow-up appointment should be within two weeks of someone having their first seizure.

Now, Trefnydd, I've received representations from constituents who tell me that epilepsy services in my health board area are still under dire pressure and failing to meet patients' needs in a timely manner. The Welsh Government must improve access to timely care and invest in the epilepsy workforce, and so I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, so that we can understand exactly what the Welsh Government is doing to improve epilepsy services across Wales.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

May I thank the Member for raising that issue? Clearly, a number of us will have received correspondence from the public on that issue. Could I ask, since you have specific people in your constituency who've got in touch with you, would you be willing to share that and those lived experiences with the Cabinet Minister, so that he can look further into that, please?

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Could I please request a statement from the relevant Minister with regards to the childcare programme and the timetable on this? I was pleased to hear the Deputy First Minister make a specific and clear commitment that initial costings and phasing details would be brought to the Senedd before the summer recess, and that's really encouraging news. And we also have the expert steering group having been set up, and I understand they've met for the first time, but we have 210,000 families across Wales who are living in poverty and really would benefit from that free childcare. So, whilst the announcement and the statement will be with us by the end of this Senedd term, could you give us an update, please, on the delivery of free childcare and how that will be rolled out, particularly within the challenges of local authorities? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising that issue. You will know that Plaid Cymru shares your ambition in terms of ensuring that every family has access to affordable, high-quality childcare, because this unlocks opportunity. This is something that's at the heart of our plan within Government. You will also be aware that Plaid Cymru's amendment in the recent debate here, which committed to providing greater detail within the 100 days, had passed very recently. That commitment has not changed.

I hope the fact that we have published £55 million in our supplementary budget in order to start that expansion work demonstrates to the Member that we are serious in terms of progressing this work, and the fact that the Cabinet Minister has committed to providing regular updates also, hopefully, provides that reassurance that the Member seeks. I would hope, therefore, that the Member would be content to support our supplementary budget when we get to that point, because, clearly, that £55 million is an important first step in order to take that ambition forward.

Sera Evans (Plaid Cymru, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Deputy Minister for Transport on local bus provision in the Ogmore Valley, particularly the restoration of services to the Caedu and Stormy Lane areas, as well as proposals to extend evening runs. Since the reorganisation of the network in 2019, residents have been left without a regular bus service, impacting many older residents, disabled people and families with young children. There's also a strong case for extending the current evening timetable. The last departure from Bridgend to Nantymoel is currently around 8.30 in the evening, limiting access to evening employment, leisure and onward rail connections.

As the Welsh Government develops proposals for improved north-south coach services and progresses bus franchising, these improvements must be matched by stronger local feeder bus services. A statement outlining how the Welsh Government will work with local authorities to restore those local routes and feeder services would be greatly welcomed. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

I thank the Member for raising that issue. Clearly, the Deputy Minister is in the Chamber and heard that, or otherwise I would ask you to write to him. Clearly, after passing as a Senedd during the sixth Senedd all of those reforms in terms of bus services, Plaid Cymru's commitment is unambiguous in terms of the need to improve connections. There is an announcement coming later this afternoon, but that's not the end of the journey in terms of where we want to see this going. Buses are incredibly important. We have seen a lot of concentration on trains in the past, but buses are very important for the reasons that the Member has noted. So, I hope that you're pleased that the Deputy Minister heard that in particular.

Louise Emery (Reform UK, Clwyd)

The UK Government closed the listed places of worship scheme on 31 March. A £92 million replacement fund was found, but exclusively for England. This means that churches and chapels across Wales faced a 20 per cent VAT increase overnight on every single repair. Now, I know there are National Lottery and Cadw applications that can be applied for, but they require professional help, and that's very hard for small, volunteer-run community groups. This is not just about the buildings. We know our churches and chapels are where we sing our hymns, where we preserve our language, and they forge our national identity. So please can I request a statement from the Minister for culture on this very urgent issue? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you very much for raising that issue. This is a very relevant issue within my portfolio at the moment. Clearly, you have referred to the funding that has been available through Cadw in order to invest in these buildings, because, even when they stop being places of worship, they are an important community asset. We have seen that happen across Wales when they are repurposed and reimagined. Certainly, I will commit to write to the Member with an update in terms of the work that we're doing. This has had an impact, this change at the UK level, but there are things that we have been doing through Cadw to assess the implications of that and what we can do to support here in Wales.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Trefnydd, the comments made by the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning in this Chamber two weeks ago created a lot of confusion within local government, when the Minister asserted that regionalism had happened gradually, through the back door. Now, I wouldn't describe the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 as a back door.

Huw Thomas (Labour, Caerdydd Penarth)

Trefnydd, corporate joint committees have been established by law. They're not perfect, but they're an important vehicle to ensure that regional collaboration can work on a democratic basis, which contrasts sharply with Plaid Cymru's proposal to outsource regional economic development to unelected quangos. There's a striking example in south Wales that shows how a Welsh Development Agency-style body may not be the best means of delivering economic growth: the LG factory in Newport failing in the early 2000s. Compare that with the recent development of the world-class semiconductor cluster on the same site, something that would not have happened without the support of the south-east Wales CJC. So, Trefnydd, can the Minister make a statement on CJCs and how democratic accountability will be retained in regional economic development?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, what you're asking for sounds like a perfect question to ask of the Minister when we do have ministerial question sessions. It's very specific, and I would suggest that you table that question and place it into the ballot. And of course, there are always opportunities to question and scrutinise Ministers on these issues.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Trefnydd, can I call for a statement on NHS dentistry in Wales from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care? As the Trefnydd will know, there are hundreds of thousands of individuals in Wales that are not currently registered with an NHS dentist, and many people are having to take matters into their own hands with pliers, or travelling outside of Wales for their treatment, sometimes even overseas. We've got thousands of people in my own constituency of Clwyd who have lost access to NHS dentistry in recent years, including the patients of two local clinics just in the Abergele area alone over the past 12 weeks.

Now, we know that part of the problem is the NHS dental contract, which was foisted on the dentists of Wales by the previous Welsh Labour Government. That clearly needs looking at again in order to make it more attractive for people to join NHS dentistry and to keep their NHS contracts going. We need to know what action the Welsh Government is going to take to address this rising tide and exodus, and I'd be grateful to know what action is going to be taken, and if a statement could come forward.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you very much for that question. I know that Jane Dodds asked me two weeks ago as well, and I would note the points I made at that point in terms of the importance of dentistry, and that we recognise the real challenges that are there. The Cabinet Minister for Health and Care is ensuring that there is a review being done of the new contract in the autumn, and the dental access portal helps people to find a dentist as well. I do recognise that there are challenges here, and we are committed to addressing them.

Iain McIntosh (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy on the future of independent high-street businesses in Wales, please. Across Wales, independent businesses are being squeezed from every direction. Rising costs, higher taxes, increased regulation, soaring energy bills, unfair business rates compared to England, and declining footfall are all making it harder than ever to survive. Every week, we see more shops closing their doors, leaving empty premises on our high streets and taking jobs, investment and community spirit with them. Independent businesses are not just important to our economy, they are the lifeblood to our towns and our communities too. Once they are gone, they are incredibly difficult to replace. So, will the Cabinet Minister provide a statement setting out what urgent action the Welsh Government is going to take to stop the decline of our high streets and ensure that independent Welsh businesses have a future? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

May I thank the Member for raising that issue? Clearly, the future of our town centres and regenerating town centres is extremely important. It's important to Plaid Cymru. There were a number of commitments in our manifesto in relation to that. It has also been mentioned by the Cabinet Minister for effectiveness—no, that's the wrong one, sorry. It was mentioned by Adam Price as Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy, when he set out his priorities. Certainly, that work will proceed. There are a number of steps that we will take. There is no single solution. There are many challenges facing our high streets—looking at challenges in terms of flooding in some areas, but also the other challenges the Member set out too. So, I can give you a reassurance that that work is proceeding. A town centre taskforce will be established as part of our 100-day plan. This will look at options for reformed business rates that support high-street regeneration better.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Could I support Jane Dodds's calls for more detailed information on your implementation of your childcare offer? I tabled a written question asking for the membership of the childcare steering group, and the reply came back saying that the Deputy First Minister would have to write to me about that. I think it is essential that there is transparency on such a major commitment that is going to cost so much money.

Can I also ask for a statement on the Government's response to the call for evidence on the future of tertiary education? The Government is meant to be committed to a connected approach across the post-16 sector, however, all we've heard about so far is the university sector. However, most of our young people, our most vulnerable young people, are in the further education sector, particularly those who are most at risk of becoming not in education, employment or training. There was a comprehensive call for evidence, and I think it is important that the Senedd has the opportunity to scrutinise those responses.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Thank you. If I may note, in terms of the first point, the amendment that the Government tabled was passed on that commitment in terms of additional information within the first 100 days. I hope that the fact that there is £55 million in the supplementary budget, as I mentioned to Jane Dodds, provides that assurance that Members are seeking that the work is in train. The first meeting of the expert steering group on expanding childcare took place on 25 June. That was chaired by the Deputy First Minister. I will ask in terms of ensuring that you do receive that response regarding the membership.

Regarding the second point, we will be looking to bring forward an update to the Senedd on the work and the commitments that we had in our manifesto very soon.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, Pen-y-bont Bro Morgannwg)

Leader of the house, could we have a statement from the Government Minister responsible for Government delivery and the constitution? In his statement last week, he referred constantly to the COVID review rather than the COVID inquiry that the Government promised when they were in opposition. It was quite clear that, when you were in opposition, you were voting for an inquiry. I appreciate that you, your good self, on a tv programme, did refer to it as being more of a review, and the health Secretary in opposition said, 'No, it's an inquiry.' Can we have clarity, please, via a statement, to understand the Government preparations in putting this together and that it will be an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, thank you. I will refer the Member to the Plaid Cymru manifesto, where it was clear—and the commitment that was made in working with COVID bereaved families—in terms of what we would commit to. So, certainly there will be an update when that work does progress. But the Member will know clearly that we have stood on our manifesto, that there has been collaboration with the families affected. He will also know that we stood shoulder-to-shoulder and have been calling for lessons to be learned. And that's what needs to happen here: lessons should be learned, so that preparations are better for the future when—when—something similar happens in future, because the likelihood of that is high, and certainly we are committed to learning those lessons.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, Sir Fynwy Torfaen)

Trefnydd, all Labour MPs, including my own Monmouthshire MP, Catherine Fookes, and Torfaen's Nick Simpson—Thomas-Symonds, sorry—voted in Westminster recently to support a trial pushing—offering, sorry—puberty blockers, life-altering drugs to children. It's abhorrent. And yet, they've also backed banning social media for under-16s, because children are supposedly not mature enough to use it responsibly. So, they are saying on the one hand that children are too immature to scroll on their phones, but mature enough to consent to irreversible life-altering decisions about their bodies and fertility. I hope that, Trefnydd, you will agree with me that this trial is nothing short of state-sponsored child abuse. So, may I request a statement from the Welsh Government stating its commitment to safeguarding Welsh children from such drugs in this UK Government-led trial, as I believe it's in the Welsh Government's power to take Welsh children out of the sickening experiment on vulnerable children? Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, it's not my place to respond to what Members of Parliament of a different party have said in a different chamber to this, in the first instance. And I would refer the Member to the comments made by the First Minister earlier today, and also note in terms of the author of the Cass review and their views on this matter.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Afan Ogwr Rhondda)

Finally, Jason O'Connell.

Jason O'Connell (Reform UK, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Trefnydd, can I ask for a statement from the Minister for enterprise on the ongoing situation at Kepak in Merthyr Tydfil? Kepak is Wales's largest meat processing plant and they began a consultation that could see the loss of up to 85 jobs. For years, the farming industry and the wider rural industry have warned Governments what would happen if their pleas for increased production were ignored and not made a priority. Now, herd numbers are falling, confidence is collapsing and Welsh workers are paying the price. It's absolutely vital the Welsh Government does all it can to save these jobs in Merthyr. Every one of these jobs supports families, the wider community and local businesses in our constituency. Losing them will be a blow not just to Merthyr, but to Wales's entire food production sector. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr)

Well, I thank the Member for raising that issue. I should declare that this is within the constituency I represent too. It's the second time that the Member's raised this issue during business statements. I don't know if the Member has written to the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy and asked for a meeting. Because of the nature of this, that would, I think, be the most beneficial thing, because things are moving very quickly too.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care: Improving Leadership and Performance at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Moving now to a statement by the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care: improving leadership and performance at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has been in a heightened state of escalation for the past 11 years, with the current level 5 escalation in place since February 2023. Despite significant financial and targeted support over the past three years, the health board continues to face significant challenges in terms of leadership, governance, performance and delivery, with outcomes that remain below the standard people in the north of Wales should expect.

I want to be very clear at the outset that I am grateful for the dedication and commitment that staff show every day, often in difficult and challenging circumstances. They are as much the victims of this sorry saga as the patients.

Time and time again, the previous Government repeatedly tried arms-length initiatives to make a difference, without sustained success. The lack of progress cannot and will not be allowed to continue. Recently, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales designated the emergency department at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd as a service requiring significant improvement, its highest level of concern, less than two years since it was removed from this status.

People in the north of Wales are also waiting too long to be able to access the care and treatment they need. This is not a reality that the public should be asked to accept, and it's not one that this Government will accept either. This Government will not tolerate the failings of the past 11 years. It's an injustice for patients, their families and the hard-working staff working across health and care in the north of Wales.

As I mentioned in my response to the recent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales inspection at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, I am fed up of 'Betsi' being a byword for dysfunction and declining standards, dragging the good name of the NHS and its hardworking staff down in the process. That’s why I am today announcing my decision to instigate new measures to stabilise services, strengthen leadership and hold Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to account for sustained improvement, as part of the ongoing level 5 escalation at the health board.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

This is a serious intervention, reflecting the persistent and unresolved concerns. Previous arrangements have relied on the health board identifying and delivering its own recovery, with support alongside it. That approach has not delivered the scale or pace of change required. This intervention moves beyond that model to one where action is more directly led.

We are not simply asking the organisation to improve; we are directing them on how that improvement happens. That means setting clear expectations, providing targeted expertise, and maintaining close and continuous oversight of delivery. It also means there are no second chances for those in positions of responsibility and authority. The era of plans for improvements being allowed to drift, of problems being allowed to fester, undermining the interests of patients and staff, ends now. It is also a clear statement of my commitment to supporting improvement and ensuring people in the north of Wales receive the safe, high-quality and timely care that they deserve.

Since I was appointed as Cabinet Minister last month, I have been working closely with my officials to put measures in place to ensure the health board delivers immediate improvements. Members will be aware that this Government’s 100-day plan committed to commissioning a joint review with Audit Wales and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales of the effectiveness of the current escalation and intervention framework, which have clearly shown to be wanting by the chronic issues at Betsi. My officials are working at pace to put together options on advancing this review, and I will be making a statement in due course. But tackling the issues at Betsi cannot wait. That is why work has already been taken forward with NHS Wales Performance and Improvement to strengthen accountability and intervention arrangements.

As part of a new approach to intervention to organisations in higher levels of escalation, an intensive support, recovery and turnaround team has been established in NHS Wales Performance and Improvement. The intervention will take a five-phase approach to mobilise, assess, plan, support and transition. The intensive support, recovery and turnaround team will focus on the most pressing risk areas currently affecting the organisation, bringing together operational and clinical experts to drive urgent improvement. Their work will prioritise reducing long waits for cancer treatment, tackling ambulance handover delays, and ensuring that no-one waits more than two years for planned care.

This targeted approach is designed to stabilise services quickly, while addressing long-standing performance challenges that have impacted patient outcomes. By combining practical delivery expertise with clinical leadership, the ISRT team will support the health board to take decisive action, improve patient flow, and restore timely access to care.

As part of the level 5 intervention at Betsi Cadwaladr health board, I have also commissioned a full stock-take of the health board’s current position, covering operational challenges, quality of care and strategic direction, to determine the most appropriate next steps to see improvements delivered for the people of north Wales. Immediate actions will include a formal well-led review of the organisation, covering leadership, governance, and organisational culture; quality, safety and patient experience; board and executive capacity and capability; and the review will also consider any areas of good practice to enable future improvement and delivery plans.

There will be stronger independent challenge than seen previously. A nationally appointed expert panel will undertake a full assessment of leadership, governance and performance. It will provide clear, evidence-based recommendations and ensure transparency about the changes required. A reference group will also be established to ensure local context for the review and to provide guidance.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Importantly, this intervention is designed not only to address immediate performance pressures, but to tackle the underlying causes of repeated failure. It will examine whether the organisation has the leadership capacity, capability and culture needed to sustain improvement over the longer term. This represents a clear shift towards more direct support and accountability, with a strong emphasis on measurable outcomes and sustained improvement for the people of the north of Wales.

Last month, I wrote to the chair of the health board setting out my concerns about the lack of progress. In July, I will chair a meeting with board members and the executive team from the health board to make clear to them my expectation that they must take ownership of the long-standing issues within the health board and make the improvements required for the people they serve.

While this Government is stepping in more directly, this does not remove responsibility from the health board—on the contrary, it strengthens expectations. The board and executive team must take full ownership of the issues they face and work at pace to deliver the changes required, supported but also firmly challenged by this intervention. I expect the final report from the 'well-led' review to be submitted to the Welsh Government by the end of October this year.

I have been clear that there must be an urgent injection of pace for this work, so I expect, therefore, the interim findings to be reported monthly, to inform the ongoing intervention and support. The report and its findings will be used to trigger the further intervention and direction required, and we will work with the health board on the outputs to ensure that appropriate actions are taken. We will continue to work collaboratively with the board to ensure that interventions are effective and lead to long-term improvement in service outcomes.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the trials and tribulations at Betsi Cadwaladr health board didn’t start under our watch, but I am committed to turning the situation around. This is the board’s final chance to demonstrate that they can deliver the consistent high standards of care that people in north Wales deserve. As both the First Minister and I have made abundantly clear, all options will be considered if progress is not at the scale and pace that we expect to see. I will be maintaining close oversight and will keep Members informed of progress. Thank you.

James Evans (Reform UK, Brycheiniog Tawe Nedd)

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement. I welcome the fact that the Minister is taking further action on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, but the people in north Wales have heard strong words before. They have heard promises of improvement before. They have seen reviews, action plans, escalation frameworks and outside support for years. But after 11 years of escalation and more than three years back in level 5 special measures, we are still talking about serious failures in leadership, governance, performance and patient safety. The key question today is simple: what will be different this time?

The Minister is right to say that front-line staff are not to blame. Doctors, nurses and the wider workforce are doing their best in extremely difficult circumstances. They're being let down by the system, just as patients are being let down by the system. But the figures remain deeply concerning. Only 58.2 per cent of emergency department patients at Betsi were admitted, transferred or discharged within four hours, and 17.1 per cent waited more than 12 hours. On planned care, 18.6 per cent of pathways were waiting more than a year. Diagnostics were also a major problem, with 43 per cent of pathways waiting longer than the eight-week target. Cancer performance stood at 52.5 per cent against the 62-day target, far below the 75 per cent target that the Welsh Government sets itself.

The recent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales decision at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd should also be a serious warning. Its emergency department has yet again been designated as a service requiring significant improvement. HIW raised concerns about leadership, governance and risk management, but we've heard all that before, and I know Members from north Wales have raised it in this Chamber on a number of occasions. The fact that this department has previously been under those arrangements, between 2022 and 2024, shows that, even when progress has been made, it has not been sustained. What is going wrong here?

I want to ask the Minister directly: what powers does he currently have to force the change at Betsi, and which of those powers is he prepared to use? Because the danger is that the Government talk a very good game on intervention—I know, I've heard it for the last five years—while then saying that its powers are limited when it comes to direct influence over delivery. If the Minister believes that the current rules do not give him enough power to intervene directly, then he should change the rules. If the escalation framework is not strong enough, then strengthen it. And if Ministers cannot direct the pace and scale of change needed under level 5 special measures, then bring forward the necessary changes so that the Government can. The people of north Wales cannot be asked to sit through another cycle of review, report, action plan and then the disappointment and poor performance that follows.

The Minister has announced today an intense support, recovery and turnaround team. It just seems like another board to me. I do not oppose bringing in expertise, but the question is how this taskforce will deliver improvements on the ground. Will it have power to direct operational decisions? Will it report directly to the Minister? Will it be able to challenge the board in real time? And who will be personally accountable again if these targets are missed? Will it be the Minister or will it be someone we've never seen before? I also want to ask what additional measures and support are being put in for the specific areas that the Minister identified.

On cancer, will there be extra diagnostic capacity, additional clinics, weekend or evening working, more use of cross-border capacity and a clear recovery plan for the 62-day target? Otherwise, it’s just warm words. On ambulance handovers, what is being done with the Welsh ambulance service, local authorities and social care partners to improve patient flow, speed up discharge and stop ambulances being stuck outside hospitals instead of responding to emergencies? And on two-year waits, will the Minister set out a pathway-by-pathway plan with clear dates, extra theatre capacity, insourcing or outsourcing where needed, and where mutual aid from other parts of the NHS or providers from outside Wales can come in to help? Those are what people need to see with delivery on the ground.

The evidence is already there, the failure is already known. The issue now is not whether another review can describe the problem; the issue is whether the Minister is prepared to use every available lever to fix it. Otherwise, this will be just another board that identifies the failures and delivers nothing.

To finally close, you said that these issues did not start under your watch, but the people of north Wales will be watching to see whether you can turn this around. Because if you can't, Cabinet Secretary, I think you'll be another one on the long list of health Ministers who has failed to turn Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board around. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Thank you for those questions. I agree with a lot of what has been said, because during the committee debates we've had, we've raised these issues about Betsi Cadwaladr, and clearly there's a cross-party issue here in wanting to resolve this. In fact, I should probably declare an interest. I live in the north, my family are patients under Betsi Cadwaladr. In fact, nearly half of the Cabinet are represented by Betsi Cadwaladr. It's in our interests to see it improve.

You made some very good points around the issues, and you provided the data with urgent and emergency care statistics, the planned care problems, the cancer stats, the diagnostics, HIW at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. These are all some of the major problems facing the health board, and we expect to see rapid improvement in those. However, the difference here—and you asked what is the difference between what we're proposing and what has been done in the past—is that the previous approach relied on the health board to identify and deliver its own recovery plan, with support placed by the Government alongside it.

That approach hasn't delivered in the past. In this instance, what we're doing is that we are putting the individuals in to help with the support and to direct that support, looking specifically at cancer diagnostics and waiting times, looking specifically at the handover and the ED problems that we've got, and at the two-year waits. They will be dealing directly with those major issues we can identify and making sure that we have rapid improvement in those departments.

You made a good point about whether or not the escalation framework is fit for service and use. We've said it isn't. We're not convinced that it is at the moment. That's why we have started the process of reviewing the framework. We've commissioned that piece of work already, and I will be updating the Senedd on this.

On the final point you raised around the waiting lists, they're clearly unacceptable in the north. That's why we've put forward the £100 million revenue plan for waiting lists. Much of that will clearly be targeted at Betsi Cadwaladr, and we will be using all the tools at our disposal to get those two-year waits down within a matter of months. The First Minister and I have made it clear that the health board is on notice and this is the last chance that they have, so we expect to see rapid improvement over the coming months.

Ken Skates (Labour, Fflint Wrecsam)

Minister, thank you for your statement. The frustrations that have been expressed in this Chamber I align myself with. The service provided by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is insufficient and needs to be improved rapidly.

When I read the statement, Minister, I was reminded in my own mind of that scene in This Is Spinal Tap where they move the guitar dial up to 11 from 10. It feels and sounds like you're frustrated with the escalation framework, because it goes to number 5, and Betsi have been at that point for many years now, but we're not seeing the improvements and the speed of improvements that should be expected at that point on the escalation scale. So, I understand and appreciate why you are taking these measures, but what I'm concerned about is that the measures have been deployed in the past, albeit in different forms. Largely, intervention has been seen in the past to little or no avail, or at least to no sustained benefit for the long term.

There are some really important points, though, that come from your statement. First of all,

'no second chances for those in positions of responsibility and authority.'

That sounds to me like it's a formal final warning to the board. Is it also a final warning to executives? Significantly as well, with the measures that you're announcing today, essentially, NHS Wales will be intervening more directly and intensively. NHS Wales are directly accountable to you. You've issued a final warning. Surely that also applies to NHS Wales, in which case, you are putting yourself in the firing line directly if we do not see, as you put it, immediate improvements.

I'd just welcome an outline of how much responsibility you are willing to take for the situation at Betsi Cadwaladr, and, with regard to those immediate improvements, what they are and by when will we see immediate improvement. Is 'immediate' days, weeks, is it months? I take it that those areas of improvement relate to reducing long waiting lists for cancer treatment, tackling handover delays and ensuring that no-one waits for more than two years for planned care, but just clarity on that would be very helpful.

You also state that this intervention represents a clear shift towards more direct support and accountability with a strong emphasis on measurable outcomes. Measurable outcomes are great, but it's even more important to state what your targets for those measurable outcomes are. So, just clarity on what those targets might be would be very helpful for the Chamber, I believe.

You closed your statement with the line

'This is the board's final chance'.

As I asked just before, is this the executives' final chance too? I know that in previous Senedd terms, Members have argued that the board members, who have suffered in the past from being dismissed, have sometimes covered for, if you like, or taken the bullets for the executives. Is it the executive team's final warning today?

And then finally—and it refers to what's been asked by James Evans—the ultimate sanction, which would be reorganisation. On what grounds would you commence reorganisation of Betsi Cadwaladr UHB? I think it's really important to be clear and transparent, because if you can't provide detail of the basis upon which you would reorganise the health board, then I'm afraid that we will just get drift, insecurity and instability within the health board. In the past, you've said that all options are on the table. Can you just be clear with us today on the circumstances that would lead you to commence reorganisation of the health board? Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Once again, the Member makes some really important points. I understand also that, as a Member for the north of Wales, he also has an interest in making sure that this works. And he was absolutely right when he started his contribution saying, 'I am frustrated at the framework and the fact that it hasn't shown to be working.' That's why we have commissioned a review of the framework. And as I said, I will be bringing a report back to the Senedd with progress on that review.

The Member did mention, along the same lines as James mentioned earlier, that measures had been deployed previously, but there's a distinct difference here where measures deployed previously allowed the health board to lead its own recovery and identify its own problems. In this instance, we're saying, 'No, we know what the problems are. You're not going to lead that recovery yourself. We are telling you that you will have to improve on cancer diagnostics and cancer treatment. You're going to have to improve on ambulance handover and ED performance.' So, that's where the targets are coming in. We know, at the moment, with cancer, for instance, that they haven't reached the target for cancer—they've been on 52.5 per cent. We need them to be at 55 per cent for four months continuously in order for them to be de-escalated in that measure. So, we need to see a four-month sustainable improvement so that they can de-escalate down to level 4. So, those are the targets that have been set and we are saying that we need to see urgent delivery. And I expect to see delivery as soon as September and then a four-month consistent delivery after that.

Finally, the important question and probably the most important one that you raised was around reorganisation and at what point do we make any decisions on that. That's why I've announced today that we've got that well-led team put in place, which will be made up of an expert panel of people who have run organisations, managed such organisations, and with a clinical input to understand what the problem is—what's gone wrong in the past, why didn't your Government's intervention succeed, what's gone so wrong that we haven't seen the improvements required and what are the problems with the governance at the health board and the culture? And the Health Inspectorate Wales report specifically spoke about culture in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd—that's across the health board as well, the cultural problem. They will look at all of these things and then bring recommendations forward to me. And then, based on that and a piece of work I've commissioned to look at all options for Betsi, we will make a decision based on the evidence given in front of us. Thank you.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, Casnewydd Islwyn)

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for bringing forward the statement today. I support your passion to turn things around at the board, and I agree that time is of the essence when it comes to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, given that it's been in special measures for 11 years. I also agree that the board's issues are complex and varied. I wonder, though, Cabinet Minister, how your approach will, indeed, help to find a better outcome. It feels like reviews on issues that have already been reviewed are undergoing regular reviews, which seems like kicking the can down the road for me. I know we've talked about timelines; you just answered the question, briefly, to Ken Skates. You mentioned September, but I'd like to know what happens after September.

The answers as to how we solve Betsi's problems also don't lie in more money for the health board. We saw the previous Welsh Government sprinkle tens of millions of pounds on the health board in the name of improvement, but without any return. In fact, the board was projected to still be £17 million in deficit at the end of March, and now we see that you'll also be providing £100 million to improve waiting times, so how much of that is actually going on Betsi Cadwaladr? As we've seen in the latest statistical release this month, the board makes up a third of patients waiting over a year for treatment, and two thirds of patients waiting more than two years. That's 33,000 patients waiting over a year in Betsi alone. They shouldn't be waiting this long, Cabinet Minister, so do you have time frames in mind for urgent improvement by your announced intensive support, recovery and turnaround team?

Last week, you also spoke about surgical hubs, but in light of our debate on preventing hospital downgrades and closures, you were remarkably coy about how your Government would step up for local services. So, I'd be grateful if you could confirm whether these surgical hubs are a temporary or permanent measure going forward.

The answer also doesn't lie in a new chief executive. In 11 years, it's been a revolving door at the top, and staff need reassurance that their leadership is going to be stable and secure from now on. I know that Carol Shillabeer has been in charge for about three years now, but even then, we've seen nearly 89,000 patients treated in hospital corridors, and as we heard last week, staff battling outdated and crumbling infrastructure to treat as many patients as they can. And this is reflected in the A&E waiting times for the board itself.

You've mentioned Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, and we can see the problems it faces. It sits at the bottom of the NHS table, with fewer than a third of patients being seen within four hours. Wrexham Maelor isn't much better, with fewer than 40 per cent of patients being seen within the target time, and over 1,800 patients waited longer than 12 hours in both hospitals. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine estimated that, last year, nearly 1,000 patients died waiting for emergency treatment across Wales. So, what will the turnaround team be doing now to improve patient flow out of hospitals in north Wales?

Cabinet Minister, I noted that you outlined £20 million in a capital package for improving waiting lists, yet we see £1 billion of high and significant maintenance issues in the NHS estate. However, it doesn't escape my notice that you sought to evade these points last week, and that you don't mention them in any of your statement here today. Therefore, what urgent measures are you taking to ensure that urgent improvement works are made to hospitals like Wrexham Maelor?

Cabinet Minister, you've said on many occasions that your focus will be on primary care, but no mention has been made of how this will be turned around in this statement. I do agree that we need more care closer to home, however, in the case of Betsi Cadwaladr, we know that, historically, there's been a widespread shortage of GPs in the area itself. We see regular situations where patients can't even register with a GP in north Wales. This, ultimately, has direct impacts on A&E departments, as there is simply nowhere else for them to go. So, while extra funding for primary care is your clear goal, Cabinet Minister, how will this help the residents of north Wales and what measures are you taking to increase the number of GPs across the board's area?

Finally, Cabinet Minister, I see last week that you said Betsi Cadwaladr will be, and I quote,

'on watch...over the next two years'

and hinted at a possible reorganisation if it did not indeed improve its performance. Let me just say this clearly today, Minister: your Government will also be on watch, not just in this Chamber by us, but by the residents of north Wales too. Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Deputy Llywydd, the Member is right in her critique of the situation where we've got problems in primary care—we'll start there—when it comes to GPs, and that feeds into the problem that we have at, for instance, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, but in fact in Wrexham Maelor and Ysbyty Gwynedd as well. Those problems with ambulance transfers into the hospital, those problems with ED, start at that primary care, so that assessment is absolutely right. That's why we've said that we will be recruiting an extra 100 GPs across Wales, and they will clearly help in the north of Wales, in those areas that—[Interruption.] The Member is asking how many—all the decisions that we're making are clinically led, so they will be helping out in the areas where the urgent need is required.

The Member asked about better outcomes and whether or not this was kicking the can down the road. Well, I would push back on that and say 'no', because we are putting this support of the recovery and turnaround team in immediately, and they will help with those issues that I mentioned, with cancer diagnostic and cancer treatment, with handover of the ambulances and with the two-year waits. So, they will be helping immediately to identify what needs to be done and direct the work in order to get those resolved. I've given already the timescale that we're working to.

One of the questions that the Member raised was around the capital spend and whether or not we would be dealing with the backlog. I think I've mentioned numerous times, Dirprwy Lywydd, in this Chamber, that the urgent issues around the backlog are a priority of ours. The backlog in the NHS stands at £1.5 billion, so we know that certain urgent works need to be done, and it is a priority. We will be going through those pieces of work with pace over the coming year and a few months, in fact, as we put that £20 million we've committed into improving theatre spaces and diagnostic equipment as well. So, I think that answers most of—

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, Casnewydd Islwyn)

The estate.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

The estate, yes, which is what I've just responded to there. In the question on the estate, you asked about whether or not the hubs that we're putting in are going to be permanent. Again, to repeat what I've said previously, we will be clinically led. Some of them will be permanent, some of them will be utilising underutilised spaces within the NHS estate currently. So, it'll be a mix and match depending on the clinical advice that we're receiving.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Thank you. Marc Jones.

Marc Jones (Plaid Cymru, Fflint Wrecsam)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I begin by declaring an interest? My wife works as a nurse at Betsi Cadwaladr.

The situation at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is a clear reflection of the systemic weaknesses that have accumulated over a long period of time under the previous Government. There's been failure for over a decade to ensure that care is delivered in the right place, particularly in community settings, which has led to significant pressures on hospitals and, unfortunately, to worse outcomes for patients. As a result, we've seen a familiar cycle developing: a lack of capacity in the community, increasing demand on services in general hospitals, and then the need to respond to emergencies rather than prevent them. It is, therefore, no surprise that Betsi Cadwaladr is once again subject to some kind of additional measures, which clearly underlines that the previous approach has not been sufficiently robust or sustainable.

This statement is a clear sign that the current situation demands further challenge, further scrutiny and, above all, further accountability. I'm pleased that this Government is ready to face this reality head-on so soon in its term of office and to look afresh at the current framework in order to strengthen governance and re-establish accountability.

Cabinet Minister, this is nothing new, is it? We know we've been campaigning for a decade and more to improve standards of healthcare in north Wales.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Is there a question, Marc, sorry?

Marc Jones (Plaid Cymru, Fflint Wrecsam)

Yes, there is a question on the way.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Promptly?

Marc Jones (Plaid Cymru, Fflint Wrecsam)

But may I also say that I demand that you listen to the grass roots; my wife wouldn't forgive me if I didn't say that. Please listen to those working on the ground; they know best how to deal with this. The question, therefore, is: will you explain how exactly this escalation will establish a new culture of robust leadership, transparency and long-term accountability for the benefit of patients across north Wales? Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member started by referring to his wife, who works for the board. May I take a moment to thank her and every nurse and midwife working in very difficult circumstances in north Wales? Their work is recognised and appreciated by this Government.

I share the concerns that the Member raised about Betsi Cadwaladr. He was right in saying that we've been campaigning to improve the quality of health services in north Wales for over a decade. And despite the significant investment made by previous Governments in Betsi Cadwaladr, the board has failed to show the level of progress required.

The support and recovery team that I announced today has never been done in the past. We have never commissioned this kind of body before, particularly when it comes to the work in Betsi Cadwaladr. They will be directed by Government to undertake work in order to look and support primarily, particularly with patient flow, improving ambulance transfer times, as I mentioned, reducing waiting times for treatment and diagnostics, and improving waiting times for cancer diagnosis and treatment. That will be important in order to ensure that we can change the culture, that people at the management level of the board know that they need to act with urgency when the board brings plans forward, and that they are acted upon and implemented, rather than letting them sit on a shelf without actually taking any action. I've asked officials also to develop further actions if the board doesn't reach our expectations.

Nigel Williams (Reform UK, Fflint Wrecsam)

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your statement. I want to raise a really serious concern today, and I think it's one that's been actually overlooked in this debate altogether, and I'll discuss that in a moment.

I've been contacted, actually, by a staff member at Wrexham hospital who described what they believe to be a culture of bullying and intimidation within parts of the senior management structure at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and that may be at the heart of some of the issues that are actually ongoing here. They tell me that staff have been driven to sickness, have resigned or have sought transfers elsewhere because they feel unsupported and were still unable to challenge poor behaviour.

As a former NHS employee myself, I worked right across north Wales, including at Wrexham Maelor Hospital. I know that doctors, nurses, healthcare professionals and support staff deserve a workplace where they are respected and valued and able to speak up without fear of repercussions.

Poor leadership doesn't just affect staff morale, it can ultimately affect patient care. And it doesn't sound like strong operational command and supporting staff well-being to me, from what I've read in your statement today. So, will you, Cabinet Secretary, therefore, tell us what assurances you can provide that concerns of bullying and intimidation, which may be at the heart of some of the issues ongoing within the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, are being independently investigated, and what specific actions you will take to ensure that staff who raise concerns are protected and listened to?

And one last question. You actually mentioned today that all options are open. Would you actually consider a takeover by a health board from outside of Wales? Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Dirprwy Lywydd, if I start with the final point.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

If I may start with the final point, no, I will not even countenance the idea of allowing a health board from outside of Wales to take over Betsi Cadwaladr, because they work to different rules and regulations. We've got devolution here. We've got our own pieces of legislation. The health board answers to this Senedd, to you, the people elected by the people of Wales.

The issues that you raised around the bullying and management accusations that you've heard sound, on the face of it, serious, and I would say that we've got strong whistleblowing powers here, and I would suggest that if the Member has got any evidence and can share that evidence, then please do so. Nobody should be penalised. Nobody should lose their job because of their whistleblowing. So, make sure that that information reaches myself, initially—or far better for it to go directly, initially, to the health board so that they can look at at least the accusation initially.

But the broader point the Member raises around the culture and governance is absolutely key to what we're doing. That's why we are setting up the independent well-led expert panel so that we can look at those issues around the culture of the health board, why things haven't succeeded, have they got the required leadership and the required skillset in order to push things forward. So, the broader point you're making around culture and governance is central to what we are issuing today.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Diolch. Just a reminder: one-minute contributions. I don't like interrupting people, but when we're slipping near the two minutes it's becoming a bit long, and, for fairness for everyone, I'd like to give everyone a chance to come in that I've got on my list.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Darren Millar next. Thanks.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I also refer to my register of interests? My daughter's employed as an assistant psychologist by the health board. The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board isn't functioning as it should. It's on life support. Its vital signs aren't good. We know that the performance is nowhere near where it should be, and that's taking its toll on patients and on staff. You've announced today more of the same medicine, effectively, for the patient, with yet more panels, yet more people from the outside giving support for people on the inside. And I have to say I've got a low level of confidence that it's going to deliver the turnaround results that we all want to see.

The intensive support and recovery turnaround team, that's a national team. It's not just focused on Betsi—it's going to be responsible for the whole of Wales. The well-led review, you haven't said who's involved in that or named the individuals who are going to lead it. You've referred to the reference group, which is going to help guide its work. I want to know whether patients and staff are going to be on that reference group.

But can I ask you two very quick questions? First of all, are we going to involve Donna Ockenden in this work? There was a high level of confidence in Donna with the two reviews she's already undertaken in north Wales and, very clearly, she has the expertise, she's used it elsewhere across the UK to help turnaround, and I'd be grateful to know if you're prepared to include her. And secondly, with reference specifically to emergency department performance, Abergele Hospital has some capacity to be used with in-patient beds and could be used as a minor injuries unit. Will you seriously look at that, with your officials and the health board, to determine whether that's a viable solution?

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I won't repeat what I've said about the difference between what we're promoting here and what we've seen in the past, which is the first point that the Member raised.

The Member asked about Donna Ockenden. Donna has done a number of tremendous pieces of work here in Wales and really valuable pieces of work in Wales. In Betsi Cadwaladr, she looked at the Tawel Fan issue, and, more recently, we know of the work she's done in Nottingham university, which was published last week. So, absolutely, I value the work that she's done, and I will put her name forward to my officials to consider as part of the expert panel. But I seriously can't promise that she will accept or she's even available, because you'll know that she's extremely busy at the moment.

The Member asked about patient and staff input—which I was remiss not to answer Marc Jones's point also—yes, I think it is important that we hear from the patients and from those on the ground. That's why everything that I've announced since being appointed Cabinet Minister is clinically led, it's led by the evidence. So, I think it is important that we do take on board the lived experience of patients, and the people who work there as well, and I will feed that back as well, so that it is fed into the expert panel.

Abergele Hospital—once again, not to repeat myself too often, but the expert panel that we're putting together for those clinical hubs will be clinically led, the decisions that they're making will be clinically led. But I will put forward Abergele as one of the options that they will consider. Again, I can't promise it'll be there, because who knows what their advice will be, but I'll put it forward as well.

Can I just also—? Again, I was remiss not to thank the Member for the work that he did within the NHS in north Wales previously, and thank your daughter as well for the work that she's doing.

Beca Brown (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

We know that the performance of the NHS across Wales has been under significant pressure for a number of years, particularly under the former Labour Government, with long waiting lists, inconsistencies in standards, and ongoing concerns about leadership and accountability across the system. These challenges have been demonstrated particularly clearly at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in my constituency. I would like to emphasise from the outset that this is not a criticism of NHS staff; they work extremely hard under extremely challenging circumstances. Rather, the problem lies in a system that, over a long period, has been overly focused on responding to failure rather than preventing it, accompanied by a lack of clarity in terms of accountability and cohesion in leadership.

I welcome the fact that you, Minister, are trying to set clear expectations and change that systemic culture. And now, it is positive to see concrete steps being taken to strengthen leadership standards and improve performance transparency. Therefore, could you outline specifically what discussions have been had and what actions have been taken to ensure real and sustainable improvement for patients, and what changes will be made to the current framework to ensure clearer accountability and better outcomes? Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd Maldwyn)

The intention or, indeed, the purpose of these extended measures, Dirprwy Lywydd, is to hold the health board—any health board—to account on the delivery of health services. I have set out my expectations of the health board in north Wales clearly in terms of delivering expected improvements, and I will reinforce this when I chair the next meeting of the escalation board next month. As part of Plaid Cymru's commitment on the 100 days, I have developed options for reviewing that framework already, jointly with Audit Wales and HIW, on the efficiency of the current regime, and I will be deciding on and announcing the best option within the week. That work will include an urgent assessment of the current framework before then announcing a new framework that will ensure efficiency, transparency and proportionality. Central to all of this, we will look at whether the escalation measures do improve outcomes, which is what we all want to see at the end of the day.

Kerry Ferguson (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion Penfro)

Janet Finch-Saunders.