Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 25 March 2026

306 contributions from 47 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on the agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. The first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. What plans does the Government have to develop renewable energy in South Wales East? OQ64040

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government is accelerating renewable deployment through our new renewable energy sector deal, which covers all forms of renewable technologies. Through private sector and Welsh Government investment, we are building a more resilient energy system in South Wales East and across all of Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch yn fawr. The renewable energy potential of Wales is huge and must be supported if we are to build resilience and protect our energy supply from international events. However, there must be some red lines when it comes to the location of these developments, which are often huge in scale. One of these red lines should be the sites of special scientific interest, which make up only 12 per cent of land in Wales. As you know, there are a number of developments that threaten the Gwent levels, which is a unique SSSI landscape in my region, which harbours many rare species of flora and fauna. It's been dubbed the Welsh Amazon rainforest by some conservationists. The ecological impact from the operational Llanwern solar plant on the Gwent levels has shown a severe decline in the lapwing breeding colony and shrill carder bee activity, a significant drop in the protected bat population, and very rare breeding Eurasian cranes have disappeared altogether. We shouldn't let this happen elsewhere on the levels. So, Cabinet Secretary, what assessment have you made of the impact of the Llanwern solar project on surrounding nature, do you agree that you cannot save the environment by destroying it, and should SSSI land be afforded more protection than is currently the case in this country? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Clearly, I can't comment on any specific planning proposals or applications, but what I can say is that 'Planning Policy Wales' is really clear that development on sites of special scientific interest is generally unacceptable as a matter of principle, and that policy position informs all of the current and future development proposals on the Gwent levels located in a SSSI. 'Planning Policy Wales' does provide some really clear and robust positions on SSSIs. Whilst the stepwise approach is a means of ensuring a net benefit for biodiversity that can be achieved in all circumstances, PPW does require a more specific approach to the consideration of SSSIs, whereby development should avoid SSSIs unless there's no reasonable alternative. There is a current consultation on the supplementary planning guidance for the Gwent levels, so I'd encourage interested colleagues and interested parties to respond to that—it closes on 31 March. That guidance will support and add detail to implement the requirements of policy 9 in 'Future Wales', to enhance biodiversity and the resilience of ecosystems on the Gwent levels.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, we all know that families and businesses are being squeezed from every direction right now, with global instability pushing up fuel prices. Now, despite this, the Welsh Government has reminded us all that energy security isn't their responsibility, but, at the same time, are helping to roll out renewables with no real strategy, no grid plan and no coherent way of keeping the benefits here in Wales. We are being asked to host the infrastructure but not given the security, the strategy or the say. Isn't it time we had an honest conversation about all our energy options, including UK oil and gas extraction, rather than pretending the status quo is enough? Cabinet Secretary, if Ministers truly believe renewables are the future, then why is there still no proper plan in place to deliver them in such a way that actually protects Welsh households from future global shocks?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, this Welsh Government has taken absolutely seriously the importance of energy security. We've seen just in recent weeks why it's so important that energy security is front and centre in terms of our approach to renewables and to energy more generally. Of course, that's why, if the Labour Party is in a position to be leading the Welsh Government in future, energy independence is absolutely front and centre of our offer to people in Wales, and they'll understand from recent events why that is so important.

Just last week, I was able to launch our renewable energy sector deal. That was a really important moment in terms of working together with the industry to accelerate the deployment of onshore wind, offshore wind, solar, marine and hydro across Wales, to meet our really ambitious 2030-35 renewable energy targets. Actually, the sector deal is already making a difference in terms of the way in which we work with industry and with community sectors. It's already improved the kinds of conversations that we're having. And the sector deal really is about looking at the barriers to the deployment of renewable energy, but also about looking at how we can better retain the benefits here in Wales for communities, doing so through the supply chain, for example, but also through creating really good, quality jobs through our skills offer. So, I would say that that work has already started, and you can see, across Wales, the really exciting announcements that have been made very recently in terms of clean energy and renewable energy specifically.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm pleased to see the conversation turning to energy security as part of renewable energy. As I said yesterday, and as I've said previously, renewables and nuclear together are an essential part of delivering energy security and our obligations to the climate. Much more than that, though, there are significant economic development opportunities, with high-paid, long-term work, but also the innovation that is taking place within this sector, with offshore power from the people from Pembrokeshire, in the event that Sam Kurtz was sponsoring earlier today, to the Llŷr windfarm that is yet to be consented, and also the fact that we already have the Erebus windfarm being consented. That supply chain from the west of Wales, all the way through the south-east, and the potential for lagoon power as well—real steps forward that have been made. And I'm very clear that, in a future industrial strategy, advanced manufacturing and clean power should be at the centre of it. Can you explain, Cabinet Secretary, your own ambition for these two key sectors, and the work you're already doing with the supply chain to ensure that the jobs and opportunities from these sectors can come here to Wales, for Welsh people and Welsh businesses to be successful now and in the future?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for that question, and particularly that focus on innovation, because Wales has been in the vanguard of innovation across a whole range of technologies. The one that comes to mind particularly is around tidal streams. I was in Morlais recently—the Welsh Government has taken an equity stake in that, and it is a real place for innovation for the next steps, if you like, in terms of that type of energy.

But, in terms of nuclear, again, really, really exciting news in terms of Wylfa. I'm really hoping that Great British Energy—Nuclear and Rolls Royce are able to sign that contract very, very shortly. That, then, I think, will give the community real confidence that this project is going ahead and that it will lead to great benefits in terms of jobs and skilled jobs in the area. I've been working really closely with Jack Sargeant on that to ensure that we're able to maximise those benefits for the supply chain here in Wales, particularly so in north Wales, but then also those points around skills as well. In the Welsh Government, we've already set up a programme board that looks at all of the areas of Government that will need to come together to make sure that the opportunities around new nuclear at Wylfa are a success. That includes teams from across the Welsh language, for example, housing, skills, and others. So, that work is already under way.

And, equally, there are some really exciting announcements that we had around the renewables sector. And I did provide colleagues with a written statement earlier this month, looking at the offshore wind action plan, and that set out across, I think, three pages the work that we're already undertaking in that space to ensure, again, that we maximise those opportunities.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, could I agree with Peredur Owen Griffiths in terms of the need to provide that badly needed protection to the Gwent levels? As you know, I chair the working group on the Gwent levels—in fact, we have a meeting on Friday of this week—and there is great concern in the local community that the nature of those levels, with all their wonderful biodiversity, nature, their unique landscape, and the history, are under threat from large-scale solar farms. The group is very grateful for the work that the Welsh Government has done, and is doing, Cabinet Secretary, to strengthen the protection through the planning system. But I just wonder if you would agree with me that what we need to see in Wales, in terms of renewable energy, is a much more community-based and community-focused approach that's not extractive in terms of companies coming along and taking value out of the local community, but is very much community based and community supported. And if it is taken forward in that way, then the planning system, I think, would support the proposals that emerge in that way.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful to John Griffiths for the work that he's been doing to support the thinking and the development of our knowledge around the Gwent levels and what that means for planning. So, I'll just put on record our thanks for all of that really, really important work.

Also, to agree with the importance of ensuring that there is a strong community focus, that was, again, one of the parts of the renewable energy sector deals that we worked on to try and ensure, whilst the Welsh Government will do its part in terms of breaking down barriers there and speeding up the decision process, for example, and making sure that we've got the supply chain in place and making sure that there is a skilled workforce in place, which will be required, that, actually, developers also have a really important part to play in engaging as early as possible with communities, and also ensuring that those community benefits that come are meaningful benefits as well. So, I think it has been a really good piece of work, bringing both sides, if you like, together.

And I also was able to publish, again this month, some guidance for developers who are putting forward significant projects. So, it was guidance that was developed to ensure that developers understand how best to communicate and how best to engage with communities at a very, very early stage. Again, that's been really well received.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. What steps does the Welsh Government take when blasting at a quarry is found to breach planning conditions regarding air quality and public health? OQ64059

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Day-to-day planning control, including enforcement of breaches of conditions, is a matter for the local planning authority. There is a statutory right to appeal to the Welsh Ministers against enforcement action and, therefore, I can't comment on the detail of any specific enforcement case.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware, of course, of the situation faced by the community of Glyncoch, living in the shadow of a quarry owned by a multinational company. In your letter to the Chair of the Petitions Committee on 3 March, you said that you would consider robust new evidence on blasting, air quality or dust—evidence supported by scientific consensus. Residents are really struggling to have their evidence verified. In a survey that I've conducted, it's very clear that they're really concerned about the impact on their health, with residents saying that over 90 per cent of them believe the quarry has harmed their health or that of families or neighbours. They report breathing difficulties, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and so on, with nearly all respondents mentioning this. Most also rate environmental conditions locally as being very poor, with many describing significant negative effects on their mental well-being. Given this, does the Cabinet Secretary agree that communities like Glyncoch require support in order to be able to gather that robust evidence? And in the absence of a health impact assessment, breaches of a 200m buffer zone and evidence of structural damage, do you agree that we must now revisit minerals technical advice note 1 so that there are urgent revisions in place?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, we've been really clear around MTAN 1 that those principles do provide comprehensive planning policy that is robust in the controlling of the impacts of quarrying. And we've also been really clear that it should be read in conjunction with 'Planning Policy Wales', which itself is kept under regular review, and that sets out the general policies for all mineral development. It does say that one of the key principles of mineral extraction is to protect environmental and cultural characteristics of places, including those highly cherished for their intrinsic qualities, such as wildlife, landscapes, ancient woodlands and historic features, but, importantly, also to protect human health and safety and general well-being. So, if there are specific concerns, I think, in the first instance—and I'm sure that my colleague has already—raise those with the local planning authority. There is also a role, I think, in terms of the evidence that you said has been collected through the survey, and I know that my officials would be keen to see the outcome of that survey, so I'd be really keen for you to share that with us before dissolution.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Concerns about quarry blasting have been raised on a number of occasions during this Senedd. Of course, one who raised it on numerous occasions was Hefin David. He raised it regularly here. I'm now in correspondence with Cardiff Council and Natural Resources Wales about the impact of quarry blasting at Taff's Well quarry and Creigiau quarry and the impact it's having on neighbouring communities. Similar issues to those Heledd Fychan has raised: residents contacting me expressing concerns about noise disturbance, dust, and impact on property structures from ground vibrations. A resident living over a mile away from Creigiau quarry wrote to me and said:

'When they blast, it can make our windows shake, so I can't imagine what it must be like for the people living closer.'

We heard evidence in the Petitions Committee that was very similar to this. Others have spoken to me about houses shaking and increased cracking on internal walls and ceilings. Whilst I appreciate, from your answer to Heledd Fychan, that these are matters for the local authority, will you consult with the Counsel General on what steps can be taken on a Welsh Government level to better safeguard residents' rights to a peaceful enjoyment of property, especially when they're living close to quarries, because, at the moment, we're hearing that they aren't having this peaceful enjoyment of their own property? Diolch yn fawr.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Perhaps, on that particular question, I'll ask the Member to write to me and I will seek some further conversations on that specific point.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The questions today are all to be answered by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. The first question is from Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee's report, 'A decade of cuts', exposed Labour's decade of failure in culture, arts and sports funding, with Wales spending just £69.68 per head on cultural services, the second lowest in Europe. The Arts Council of Wales saw a 29 per cent real-terms cut, Sport Wales down 9 per cent, and National Theatre Wales forced to close. Sixteen grass-roots music venues are also at risk, many sports venues face shutdowns, and our museums are literally falling apart.

The Welsh Government denies there's a crisis and refers to its recent uplift, which is certainly welcome, but it's too late in many senses, because the Welsh people are watching their heritage crumble after years of underfunding. The Welsh Conservatives, unsurprisingly, believe in conserving our culture, our sporting heritage and our national pride.

Before the Minister responds, can I just say that this is my final opportunity to question you as Minister before the Senedd dissolves? So, may I say it's been a pleasure to scrutinise you over the course of this term? I've always admired your passion and your dedication to your portfolio, especially in terms of apprenticeships, which I know personally you're very passionate about.

But, as a question, will the Minister finally admit the damage that Welsh Government cuts have caused, and commit to maintaining the Welsh spending to the European average, or will you keep treating our national treasures as expendable?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm grateful to the Member. He even woke his cheerleader Sam Rowlands up today, which is something new. I'm very grateful to the Member for his comments this afternoon. I've always been grateful to Gareth Davies for the constructive but robust challenge that he presents to me on a regular basis, both here in the Chamber and in other forums as well.

What Gareth doesn't point to in his remarks there is the £40 million spent on just three projects for the culture sector: CELF, Theatr Clwyd in north Wales, and the football museum of Wales. That's £40 million in this Senedd term just on three projects in north Wales.

He fails to mention that he didn't support an uplift in the arts council budget. He fails to mention the £10 million of support for the music industry through Creative Wales. He fails to mention, Presiding Officer, the support for the film and tv sector, which has brought over £400 million back into the Welsh economy.

The only unsurprising thing in the contribution from the Member is that he continues, with his Welsh Conservative colleagues, to talk Wales down and talk the culture sector down. I won't be drawn into that. I'm proud of our culture sector, and I'm proud to have supported it in a number of different ways, especially as I've mentioned this afternoon.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I just want to make it clear that I've never talked Wales down, I talk Labour down. That'll perhaps be your fate at May's elections, possibly.

The Welsh Government's grass-roots culture grant, which closed last year, has a caveat that organisations applying cannot be led by or be for the benefit of white, heterosexual, able-bodied individuals. Most people assume this kind of discriminatory, intersectional nonsense has fallen out of favour amongst the left in recent years, but clearly not in Wales. Some £234,000-worth of taxpayers' money was handed out by Diverse Cymru exclusively to organisations run by or for select identity categories. I understand that the intention is to be inclusive, but these kinds of grants manifestly exclude. Dividing up our population into identity groups and providing funding based on those categories is a retrograde step, and it's not progressive. It's exclusionary and divisive, and equates to state-sponsored discrimination. While venues close and our heritage rots away, the Welsh Government should not be playing identity politics with cultural and artistic funding. Looking over grants such as this exclude the majority of Welsh people, and do you recognise how they might be problematic? And if you are to continue in your post, would you seek to promote grants that welcome all applicants?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Presiding Officer, we've heard it, haven't we, on the final day of this Senedd term, the dying days of the Welsh Conservatives in the Senedd? We've heard it all, haven't we? Perhaps you've just heard Gareth Davies's latest performance for an interview for Reform UK. Look, I'm not going to be drawn into a culture war on this final day of the Senedd term, Presiding Officer. I'm not allowing the Member to determine what culture means for the people of Wales. That's for the people of Wales to decide what culture is.

I thought he would have left this nonsense in the old Chamber. He seems to have inflicted this new Chamber with it as well. In the very same breath, he calls for political intervention in the cultural sector while saying involving politics isn't the right thing to do. He needs to make his mind up, Presiding Officer. I'm not being drawn into the comments made by the Member in that state. As I said in my earlier remarks, I'm very proud of the culture sector. He could have taken the opportunity as a north Walian to celebrate the football museum of Wales, to celebrate the investment in Theatr Clwyd in Mold, to celebrate the £60 million-worth of sports investment, which he has seen first-hand.

Presiding Officer, we were in Rydal Penrhos School playing hockey together. He took shots at me then, and missed. He's done it again today. [Laughter.]

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Very quick and I'm pleased that you—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

[Inaudible.]

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Oh, shame.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And you should have known that.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I think the Minister can probably guess what I'm going to ask about. He'll be aware of that letter from the interim chair of the Office for Statistics Regulation being sent to the First Minister, concluding that it appears Welsh Government has cherry-picked the data to claim it's reached its 100,000 apprenticeship starts. How would the Minister respond to that letter?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for raising that question. I heard his contribution yesterday, and I am aware of the letter. I'll be very clear, as I have, as the First Minister has, and as the Minister for Delivery has, that there are two sets of data when it comes to apprenticeships being delivered by the Welsh Government and Medr. We've published that for a long, long time. Both sets are robust data, and the data of 100,000 being achieved accurately reflects the programme for government commitment. I say that with confidence, and I say it with pride.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Is that not precisely what the problem is here, though? The reality is, and you are right, that there are two measures that have been published by Medr to benchmark apprenticeships within Wales, but consistently Government has used the most rigorous measure. It is almost universally disputed that the Welsh Government has reached its 100,000 apprenticeship starts target, so I think a 'yes' or 'no' question will be quite useful here, or answer will be quite useful here. Has the rigorous measure been consistently used during this Senedd term and previous ones to measure progress? Was the rigorous measure used in revising down the target from 125,000 to 100,000? And was the rigorous measure used to underpin the announcement by Government that it has hit its target?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Llywydd, I'm not sure how to answer this more clearly. The Welsh Government has used two sets of data all the way through this Senedd term. It's very clear. It's been published by the Welsh Government and by Medr in that way. I can't be more clear than that. The 100,000 figure accurately reflects the programme for government commitment: 100,000 apprenticeship starts delivered. It's an incredibly proud achievement of this Welsh Government. It's over 200,000 in the last decade, and the decade before I was one of them. I know the difference apprenticeships can make, and I know the difference of a £150 million budget, voted down by the colleagues on my left-hand side, and abstained on by the colleagues on my right-hand side, in the last budget.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

So, everyone is wrong then. The further education sector is wrong. Apprenticeship providers themselves are wrong. And, of course, the Office for Statistics Regulation is also wrong in raising that issue, in which the Government has knowingly changed the way in which it measures, or the priority it gives to the rigorous measure, to set out whether or not it has hit apprenticeship targets. We've all got the wrong end of the stick, and the only universal truth is that which is said by the Minister, and no-one else.

Here's the actual reality of the situation we find ourselves in now. By shifting the goalposts at this last minute, just before an election, you have undermined trust in the Government's data. That's what was set out also in the letter sent by the Office for Statistics Regulation. It's not just me saying it; it is them saying it as well. So, you've had two opportunities now to come clean about whether or not Welsh Government has used the rigorous measure to underpin this announcement on 100,000 apprenticeship starts. I'll give you another opportunity to acknowledge the misstep, correct the record and rebuild that trust. Is it not time to do that now, when everyone, the sector and the Office for Statistics Regulation, are all disputing the fact that the Government has reached its target on 100,000 apprenticeships?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I have to say, Presiding Officer, as I've said, I can't be clearer than the two answers I've given today, the answers I gave in the previous economy questions session, the question that the Minister for Delivery answered, the questions that the First Minister has answered. We can't be more clear on this. I'm not going to change my answer to the question, because that is the answer to the question.

Both measures go through the same statistical assurances. Both measures go through the same statistical assurances, and they've been published in that way. The Member talks about the sector. Well, I was very pleased to receive a letter from the sector last night, thanking me and the Government for leadership when it comes to apprenticeships, recognising the difference that apprenticeships can make.

He talks about trust, Presiding Officer. Well, I'm sorry, I'm not taking lessons off Plaid Cymru on trust. They let trust down yesterday. They voted against the Hillsborough law. I tell you, the trust of people in north-east Wales, well, they've broken the trust there, I tell you.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on her decision to withdraw Wrexham's local development plan? OQ64061

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

On 16 March, using the powers available to me under section 66(1) of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, Wrexham County Borough Council was directed to withdraw its LDP.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Wrexham's LDP, of course, has been the subject of much controversy in recent years. It's the only local plan to have been rejected by its own councillors, to have been through a succession of court cases leading right up to the Supreme Court, and to have seen, of course, councillors threatened with jail for standing up for their local communities. In light of the withdrawal of the LDP, which is very welcome news for people in Wrexham and, indeed, for local democracy, there are still some unanswered questions. Specifically, what will happen to the existing appeals by housing developers to build 600 houses on Holt Road and 1,500 houses on Ruthin Road? It would appear that the basis for those appeals, the local development plan, has now disappeared. So, can you tell us, and will you confirm your understanding of, the status now of those appeals, please?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. Until such time as a new LDP is adopted in Wrexham, ‘Future Wales’, published in 2021, and the unitary development plan for 2006 to 2011 will continue to serve as the adopted development plan for the area, despite the UDP being significantly out of date. As the most recent part of the plan, ‘Future Wales’ would take precedence over the UDP where policy conflicts exist. The effect of the withdrawal is the emerging LDP will cease to exist, and that means that the policies within the withdrawn LDP will be excluded from consideration in the determination of planning applications. The evidence base of the withdrawn LDP may still be a material consideration, depending on its age and the consistency with ‘Planning Policy Wales’, technical advice notes, ‘Future Wales’ and other relevant considerations, and it will be a matter for the decision maker to determine.

So, I hope that sets out what is currently in place, and obviously we would now encourage the council to get on with the job of preparing a new LDP as soon as possible, because clearly the current situation does make the area vulnerable to speculative development, which is in nobody's best interest.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Let's be absolutely clear: when the adoption of this local development plan, LDP, properly referred to as LDP2, was quashed by the High Court last May, and subsequent appeals to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court confirmed that Wrexham council was not legally required to adopt the LDP, this effectively ended the push by developers and the Welsh Government. This is why the Welsh Government has directed its formal withdrawal. But if Ministers had listened to the council three years ago, they'd be well on their way now to a replacement plan. As Welsh Conservative councillor Hugh Jones, who supported the legal challenge, stated,

'This will now give us the opportunity to develop a new plan which will more accurately reflect the needs of the people of Wrexham'.

Of course, the Welsh Government has form in this area, having previously told Wrexham council to scrap LDP1 and start again when they were the first council in Wales to publish a draft plan. Building on my colleague's former question, how will you address both the decisions made whilst this second plan was being used and the increased speculative development that will now result whilst Wrexham has no LDP, where this is a direct consequence of Welsh Government interference?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Just to be clear, this is an unfortunate situation that the council has brought upon itself, so it now is for the council to get on with the job of preparing a new LDP as soon as possible. My officials remain available to provide the necessary advice and support to the council to enable the timely progression of a replacement LDP. But as colleagues have recognised, the lack of an up-to-date LDP does have the potential for some really significant adverse effects for Wrexham and the communities within it. The council, we expect, would be without an up-to-date plan for at least three more years, and developer contributions towards affordable housing and new schools, for example, could be impacted by that as well.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on how the local growth fund will support communities across Wales, including in Rhondda? OQ64051

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The local growth fund will invest more than £0.5 billion over the next three years to raise productivity and reduce inequalities across Wales. All regions in Wales will be able to direct funding where there are particular needs and opportunities for investment.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Thank you. Some residents in Rhondda tell me they feel let down. They didn't vote for the Brexit we now have. They feel misled by the false promises made, like the £350 million promised for our NHS on Nigel Farage's big red bus. Wales and Rhondda were net beneficiaries of the European Union, so Brexit has caused us real damage. While we don't always see eye to eye with the UK Government, we've received a record funding settlement, and we in Wales get to decide where it's spent, which is why we see differences between Wales and England, like free prescriptions and free bus passes for pensioners. If we turn our back on robust discussions and instead opt for further separation from the rest of the UK, as proposed by Plaid Cymru, we risk replicating the damage caused by Brexit. Do you agree with me that strong partnership and co-operation remain the best way forward, and will you please set out how the local growth fund will benefit Rhondda?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for that question, and I absolutely agree with the way in which Brexit has been characterised in that question. I've said it before: it was a bad idea at the time, and it remains a bad idea now. But I would say that independence and Brexit are actually two sides of the same coin, in the sense that they're dogma-led and have no regard for what's actually in the best interests of Wales, and I think that people will recognise that.

In terms of the £0.5 billion that is coming now to Wales, I think that does give us a really strong opportunity to address some of the big challenges that we have around productivity and around economic inequalities across Wales. We've focused the priorities for that scheme in that space, and this is something I think that has had cross-party support. We would expect to see some really key outcomes in places, including Rhondda, around increased business innovation and growth, new start-ups, more quality jobs created and help for people to progress their careers into work. We would also expect to see upgraded sites, premises and energy and transport infrastructure as a result of the investment that is coming back to Wales.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

It is, of course, Minister, a fact that instead of £350 million a week more to the NHS in Wales, there is considerably—hundreds of millions of pounds—more going into the Welsh NHS today, thanks to us getting out of the European Union. It is a fact that we're not sending £18 billion in membership to the European Union and only getting £9 million back. It is a fact, Minister, that your colleagues in London have cut the shared prosperity fund, and rebranded it the local growth fund, by £80 million. That is a fact, and I regret that the Member for the Rhondda did not highlight the fact that Labour have cut regeneration money to Wales. So, will you put the record straight and highlight the money that Labour have taken out of that, and try and call on your colleagues in Westminster to replace the £80 million?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think it was a fact that your party led this country to believe that Wales wouldn't be a penny poorer and would have no powers removed from it as a result of Brexit, and that absolutely is not the case. I can't believe that, all these years on, knowing everything that we know now, Andrew R.T. Davies is still defending Brexit, when everybody else can see that it was a big mistake.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ64039

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We are supporting Preseli Pembrokeshire through major investment in the Swansea bay city deal, digital infrastructure upgrades, the Pembroke Dock Marine programme, Transforming Towns regeneration, the Wales tourism investment fund, and development bank financing, alongside the emerging opportunities from the Celtic free port to drive jobs, skills and sustainable growth.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, the economy of Preseli Pembrokeshire is a largely rural one made up of many vibrant small and medium-sized businesses, which play a huge role in our local communities. Many of those businesses are under pressure, they are facing more taxes and regulation than ever before, and in my view, the Welsh Government has not done enough to recognise and respond to the challenges that rural businesses are facing and create conditions for the private sector to grow.

The rural growth cross-party group, chaired by my colleague Samuel Kurtz, published an important report back in 2024 identifying barriers to growth in rural communities, and crucially provided a series of recommendations to the Welsh Government to help better support the rural economy. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you tell us how many of those recommendations in the cross-party group report has the Welsh Government actually implemented?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government has taken a really keen interest in supporting the rural economy. This is why the First Minister has actually held a specific Cabinet meeting looking at the rural economy. She has asked me to lead a piece of work, again, looking at what we can do to improve the prospects in the rural economy. She said just yesterday that, important though agriculture is in being so critical to the rural economy, she recognises that there are a range of other sectors within the rural economy that are critical.

The foundational economy is critical in our rural communities, as well. In many places, it's one of the major employers. But also, increasingly, we're seeing innovation happening in all parts of Wales, and that's something that we want to see more of through the industrial strategy, which we're working on alongside the UK Government. There's no reason that rural Wales can't be the beneficiary of increased investment, particularly around renewable energy, which we're seeing in all parts of Wales, but then also in some of the innovation and research and development that goes alongside some of the other exciting sectors, such as digital and AI.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

6. How is the Welsh Government supporting culture in north-east Wales? OQ64045

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch. We continue to support culture projects in north-east Wales. This includes investing in programme for government commitments such as Theatr Clwyd and the football museum for Wales. Other examples of our financial support include Ruthin Craft Centre, one of the network of Celf galleries, and, of course, last year’s Wrexham National Eisteddfod.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for that response, Minister. I saw the coverage of the football museum in Wrexham and it's really exciting, what's happening there. Could I declare that I am a member of the iconic Theatr Clwyd? It's gone from a building at risk of closing to one absolutely transformed by the huge investment of this Government. The Theatr belongs to everyone and has a special place in my heart. I visit with my family very often, and I sponsored some seats there in memory of my son, who performed on the stage there with the county jazz band.

As well as an important employer and place of the arts, Theatr Clwyd is inclusive. It took over the music service when it was at risk of collapsing. The brilliant panto is screened into 60 care homes. There's a youth hub, a mother and toddler space, a dementia-friendly space, a sensory garden, a Changing Places toilet, and a special quiet viewing place for people with sensory issues. There's a shop, a fantastic restaurant, which I've been to—it's wonderful—a corporate space, apprenticeships, amazing volunteers, and wonderful views over the Clwydian range. Minister, how are you working with partners in north-east Wales to further enhance its growing reputation in the area? Thank you.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Carolyn. I'm grateful for the question about Theatr Clwyd and cultural institutions in north-east Wales. Llywydd, when it comes to cultural institutions in north Wales, I think of Theatr Clwyd as the north star. It bring people in from all over to access culture in the north-east, and we're very proud of the support that Carolyn has given to the theatre. We're also proud of the Welsh Labour Government's commitment to invest in the theatre in the last manifesto, and the £25 million-worth of investment is there for all to see.

But Carolyn is right, it's not just the investment in the theatre in Mold, the investment is happening across north Wales, in particular in the north-east. I was joined by Rob McElhenney in Wrexham just a few weekends ago to see the football museum for Wales, to see the investment there, over £6 million of Welsh Government investment. But we were able to discuss wider Government investment in Wrexham, including 'Priorities for Culture' investment in places like Tŷ Pawb, £25 million for the Wrexham Gateway project, £10 million-worth of investment in Transforming Towns in the Wrexham creative hub, in the Wrexham market improvement, in high-street improvements as well.

It's this investment and continued partnership working with local people in north-east Wales that will put Wrexham in a great place for their bid to be the city of culture. My officials have already met with the team at Wrexham to discuss what further support the Welsh Government could offer there. As someone from north-east Wales who went to university in Wrexham, I'm very proud of the investments and the delivery we've made in that area, and I want to see that continue in the future.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

7. How is the Welsh Government helping businesses in North Wales expand and remain competitive? OQ64053

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government actively supports business growth in north Wales through tailored Business Wales advice, Development Bank of Wales finance, skills and innovation programmes, and investment in digital and transport infrastructure. Regional partnerships and targeted funding help firms innovate, expand and stay competitive in domestic and international markets.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. You'll know that north-east Wales, Fflint Wrecsam, is the economic powerhouse of north Wales and a huge contributor to tens of thousands of jobs in Wales, providing prosperity to tens of thousands of people, supporting them buying their first homes, supporting their families and allowing them to live the lives that they want to live. One of the most important links of Fflint Wrecsam is to the economy in north-west England and in the UK as a whole, a really important part of our economy in that part of the world.

Cabinet Secretary, would you agree with me that one of the biggest risks to business and prosperity in north Wales and in Fflint Wrecsam is the separatist agenda of Plaid Cymru, who are desperate for Wales to be independent from the rest of the United Kingdom? We know that would cost taxpayers in Wales £20 billion a year, a completely unfunded commitment from Plaid Cymru. Do you agree with me that that's the biggest risk to the people and businesses of Fflint Wrecsam?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I hadn't expected to find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Sam Rowlands in my last questions of this Senedd term, but I absolutely endorse everything that he had to say.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

8. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact of the drive towards net zero on economic growth in South Wales East? OQ64037

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The pursuit of net zero carbon emissions contributes to efforts to mitigate the impacts of global climate change, whilst providing those growth opportunities for Welsh businesses, workers and the whole economy to be more resilient.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

You spoke of dogma earlier. For 27 years, Labour, cheered on by Plaid, have pushed these green net-zero policies to the detriment of our economy and my constituents of South Wales East. And now we see locally proposals like Candwr solar farm, which stretches across Monmouthshire, Newport and Torfaen in my region—ill thought out, totally unsuitable and threatening productive prime agricultural land in a region that relies on agriculture and tourism. What about tourism? What about agriculture? Wales relies on these key industries too. Why are you sacrificing our best farmland and areas of outstanding natural beauty on the altar of these ridiculous targets, covering Wales in pylons and panels whilst driving away the very industries that we rely on? Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me and Reform that we need to prioritise affordable, reliable energy to protect our land and reindustrialise Wales so that we once again are a serious place in which to invest and build? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, the journey towards net zero and tackling climate change is in our own self-interest. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that. on a global level, the cost of inaction far outweighs the cost of action. They’ve estimated that the damage from average global temperatures rising by 3 per cent could reduce the UK’s gross domestic product by around 8 per cent by the early 2070s, which is considerably higher than they previously estimated. By contrast, limiting average global temperature rises to less than 2 per cent could limit the reduction in GDP to around 3 per cent. And the European Commission calculates the cost of inaction on climate change as being £650 billion a year, or the equivalent of 5 per cent to 6 per cent of Europe’s annual GDP, whereas the cost of action is just 1 per cent to 1.5 per cent of GDP. So, it’s clearly in our own self‑interest, both in terms of the planet and the environment, but also in terms of the economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and the first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce delayed discharges from hospitals in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board area? OQ64048

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We’ve invested £30 million across Wales to strengthen hospital discharge, including £6.5 million for local authorities in north Wales, and a further £146 million to support integrated community care. Clear and robust guidance and proven approaches, like winter planning and discharge improvement programmes, are supporting timely, safe discharge across north Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

But despite all of that, there are around 300 patients in hospital beds in north Wales that don’t need to be there. They’re ready to leave, but there is no provision available for them in the community. There area around 300 delayed discharges, corresponding to the whole of Glan Clwyd Hospital in terms of beds that are being taken up where they should not have been taken up. That, in my view, explains much of the logjam in the NHS as it currently stands, and the policy of closing and losing beds in the community over the past 15 years has left us with 20 per cent fewer beds in the system, whilst the population is growing older, of course, and the demand is increasing. Is it any surprise that north Wales has the worst waiting lists and the worst waiting times in terms of corridor care, and also delays when it comes to accident and emergency?

So, do you accept that the failure of your Government to ensure sufficient community provision has increased the pressures on our general hospitals and has caused many of the problems that are affecting the health service in north Wales today?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Actually, what we've seen is the total days delayed have also reduced by over 24 per cent since hospital discharge was promoted to one of the First Minister’s priorities. This has resulted in total days delayed reducing, on average, by seven days per patient. That’s patients spending that much less time in hospital. The average length of stay in hospital has reduced by seven days, as I said, and there are more than 19,000 fewer delayed days each month. That’s a huge contribution to addressing the challenge that still exists in relation to flow through the hospital. We all want to see that improving in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board. I’ve made available a team of people to work with the health board to improve flow through hospitals. That will be of benefit to patients in all parts of north Wales.

You mentioned beds: we commission step-up and step-down beds, which do in fact reduce admissions into hospital, which is what we also want to see by supporting those facilities in the community, and they’re commissioned extensively in north Wales as part of the regional integration fund funding. There is more to do, certainly, but there is real progress in getting people discharged safely home.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No Gareth Davies. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, you recently attended a meeting with me in Wrexham, along with many of the social care providers in the constituency, where we discussed the problems with delayed transfers of care and what could be done to alleviate some of the issues. And as well as the challenges, many solutions were also suggested. Following that meeting, you were meeting with officers from Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and I wonder if you could provide an update, please.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, certainly. Over the course of the last year, we've allocated an extra £35 million in order to support the health board and the regional partnership board to manage more patients in the community, reduce hospital admissions and improve flow, with integrated social care as part of that. And in the discussions that I had in the meeting that you're referring to, clearly the integration of ways of working between the health board and between social care is absolutely at the heart of how the region can see an improvement in hospital discharge and the care that patients need.

The pathway of care transformation grant, the £30 million that we have made available to support the NHS and care providers across Wales, is improving regional delivery of the target and, crucially, co-ordinating care home placements through increasing their capacity to commission effectively. So, the kind of messages I was hearing very much in the meeting, which you kindly facilitated, is the kind of principle, the kind of action that is underpinning the use of that funding. And that's why we're seeing progress. There's a lot further to go, but we are seeing progress.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government works with providers in England to ensure people have access to care? OQ64029

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Health boards are responsible for planning, securing and delivering health services for their local populations, including commissioning healthcare in England, if appropriate.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Under your watch, people in Powys are waiting longer for care in England because the funding simply isn't there to pay for their treatment, even though there is capacity in the English system to treat them. While other health boards receive tens of millions of pounds to deal with waiting lists, Powys just received £115,000, less than 0.1 per cent of the total that you put into the system. This is simply not good enough for the people who pay their taxes in Powys. So, can you explain how that funding decision was reached and what factors were used in calculating the allocation? And were the full needs of Powys patients properly reflected in that process, including those who access their healthcare in England?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, of course. I've explained it to the Member several times, and I'm happy to do that for him again. The funding is calculated based on the same criteria that every health board's calculation is based upon. As he very well knows, a number of the patients that he's referring to are treated in other parts of the NHS in Wales and those health boards, as providers, have been given the funding in order to expedite the treatment of Powys patients. He knows this very well. Health boards are funded in all parts of Wales to provide services to meet the needs of their local population. Powys has particular challenges from rurality; that's reflected in the allocation. It doesn't have a district general hospital; that's reflected in the allocation. The allocation formula is fair, it's consistent and it supports Powys patients to get the care they need in a timely fashion.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, you'll know that residents in Flint and Wrexham in north Wales rely on those cross-border services with providers in England. In particular, I think of services provided at the Countess of Chester Hospital and specialist services in places like Liverpool and Manchester. You'll also be aware that Plaid Cymru are obviously desperate for Wales to be independent from the United Kingdom and to remove that strong relationship with services in England. So, would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that one of the worst things that could happen for the people of Flint and Wrexham in terms of accessing those services, those important specialist services across the border in England, is to follow Plaid Cymru's agenda of removing Wales from the United Kingdom, at a cost of £20 billion a year to taxpayers here in Wales? Would you agree with me that's the greatest risk to my constituents in north-east Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Look, what we have to see is the continuation of the good ways of working that we already have between health boards in Wales and health trusts in England to serve the needs of populations on both sides of the border. We have patients from Wales who are treated in England and patients from England who are treated in Wales, and that happens routinely, both in primary and secondary care settings. That kind of collaboration is really important, particularly for those people living on the border, but also because we have specialties in Wales that aren't available in the immediate geography of England over the border, and the same vice versa.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I think Powys residents deserve clarity on Powys waiting times, and it's important that they have a clear understanding of the facts. You wrote to me last week, Cabinet Secretary, and you said that the Welsh Government has provided substantial additional investment to reduce waiting times across Wales and that Powys residents have directly benefited from this funding through activity delivered by other health boards and NHS providers in England. Can you clarify how Powys residents have directly benefited from activities delivered by NHS providers in England from the substantial, as you put it, additional investment from the Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, certainly. The funding provided to Powys reflects its role as a commissioner of services from other health boards and trusts. So, the funding takes that into account. Again, the Member is giving me the opportunity of spelling this out for him once again. The position—[Interruption.] The position that Powys residents face is the same as residents in any other part of Wales. Health boards, including Powys, are funded to meet the needs of its local population. That's done on a transparent allocation formula. The targets that patients in Powys are entitled to be treated within are the same targets as any other part of Wales. He's entitled to make, as he often does in the Chamber, an argument for different and preferential treatment for Powys residents, but if he was health Secretary responsible for the whole of Wales, he wouldn't find that argument persuasive, and nor do I.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the Institute for Fiscal Studies recently published a report into the state of the Welsh Government's policies on public spending. This report is incredibly damning, as you'll know, and acknowledges the fact that it is not funding that is the problem when it comes to the healthcare outcomes in Wales, it is the Welsh Government's priorities. It highlights the fact that waiting times in the Welsh NHS are higher than pre pandemic and comparable measures are higher than in either England or Scotland. Furthermore, the Welsh NHS has more funding and staff than at pre-pandemic levels, but hospital activity has not increased proportionately, proving that something is fundamentally wrong with the system. Cabinet Secretary, do you disagree with this report's findings, and if given the choice, what would you have changed about your Government's approach to healthcare funding?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That's a much less friendly question than you asked me last time we were facing each other across the Chamber. Look, I mean, in all seriousness, the Government's priority is backed up by the funding we provide to the NHS. When the First Minister became First Minister in August 2024, she was very clear that what we were focusing the NHS on doing was reducing the longest waits, reducing the size of the waiting list, and doing that in two important ways. Firstly, having a planned care programme, which looked at new ways of working, and that's happened and it's working; and additional funding into the system, and that's working and that's happened as well. As a result of that, what we are seeing is a reduction, the longest sustained reduction, in the size of the waiting list in Wales ever, and significant month-on-month reductions in the longest waits. That's what we promised to do, and that's what we're doing.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, but clearly something is fundamentally wrong with the system as a whole, rather than just funding levels, and we need to move past this Government's approach of constantly firefighting, if you like. Instead, we need to be focusing on prevention, which is both more effective and financially efficient, and I know you agree with that. The consequence of failing to focus on prevention has been that more people are in our hospitals with conditions that could have been managed or avoided. You've spoken a lot about prevention, but many of the healthcare professionals that I've spoken to say that there is a huge gap between the rhetoric and Welsh Government's delivery. Cabinet Secretary, the fact is that the gap between primary and secondary care seems to be widening. You have previously raised the need for double funding, but have failed to implement this thus far to any real degree. How would you advise the next Welsh Government in implementing the preventative agenda, and what would you do differently, if given the chance?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That simply isn't the case. You and I have discussed previously the Community by Design programme that the Government is driving forward, and in order to deliver that, as I've made clear to you previously, we need to provide additional funding, for example to general practitioner practices. We are doing that. We've reached a multi-annual deal with GPs, which gives them that certainty of funding, not just this year, but next year as well, so that they can do exactly that, which is provide more services in the community, building their capacity to take on more responsibility into the future, satisfying that absolute key priority. And I agree with you on this about prevention. This Government is a Government that is absolutely committed to prevention. Our lung cancer screening programme, extending bowel cancer screening, addressing those wider determinants of health through Wales becoming a Marmot nation—there is a long list of things that we should be proud of, in all parts of this Chamber, which go to the very heart of that priority. And you're right; I absolutely share that.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It's a common theme I've been experiencing, when I talk to or listen to Ministers, and then when I listen to the people whom we serve, and there's always a difference of opinion on this. This is one where there's clearly a difference of opinion on how fast we're moving into the preventative agenda.

Moving on, though, the First Minister's statement yesterday highlighted what she described as successes. However, many of us here cannot agree with her perspective. This Government claims that it has managed to reduce waiting times at record levels, but has forgotten who it was that let these waiting lists get that bad in the first place. The First Minister also bragged about the work that the Government is doing on training new NHS staff. However, we understand that, only this week, the Welsh Government has issued allocations of training places for health professionals at Welsh universities, slashing the numbers and threatening the viability of smaller provision. This is no way to treat our health service or those wanting to work in the healthcare sector.

Cabinet Secretary, how can you expect the people of Wales to be grateful for marginal short-term dips in waiting lists when your Government is simultaneously cutting the legs out from under our future workforce by slashing training places and threatening the viability of our medical schools? Are you not simply failing to address some of the fundamental and systemic issues in our healthcare service?

And, Cabinet Secretary, as this is my last chance to speak, whilst we disagree on many policies, I have never doubted your personal desire to help your constituents and the people of Wales as a whole. So, I wish you well in all your future endeavours.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you for that, Peter. I appreciate that, and I've enjoyed having the opportunity of answering your questions over the last period of time. But what you say about healthcare training commissioning is simply not the case. So, I made a statement, as you will know, a few weeks ago, setting out this Government's approach to commissioning training places. The value of the contracts that have been commissioned is broadly the same as last year; that's done deliberately, to ensure stability and continuity. We know that we've seen examples, including recently, where more graduates are coming out of our universities than there are jobs for them in Wales. We don't want to see that situation—that isn't a sensible way for us to proceed. So, we need to make sure that we have a stable pattern of commissioning.

So, as I set out in my statement a couple of weeks ago, that is the plan for next year—the same value of contracts, a stable position, allowing the Government in the new Senedd to apply that lens of the longer-term needs of some parts of the professions in particular. So, we've prioritised that consciously, and universities now will respond to that commissioning arrangement from Health Education and Improvement Wales in the collaborative way that they have for many, many years. This is the seventh year in which this planning cycle has been taken forward, and I'm confident it will get us to the right place.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in November 2024, you stood here and launched a multimillion-pound plan to tackle hospital discharge and fix the flow of our NHS. Since then, the Government have poured £90 million into a 50-day challenge, £30 million into pathway funding, which you referred to earlier, and an additional £50 million into recovery packages. The public was told that this investment would save lives. Instead, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine reported yesterday that 2025 saw the worst-ever performance in our accident and emergency departments. Most devastatingly, an estimated 965 people died in Wales last year specifically associated with waits of 12 hours or more. That's 18 deaths every single week. Despite the integrated plans, the number of people medically fit to leave hospital but stuck in a bed has actually risen again this February. Cabinet Secretary, after spending tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money, why is the only thing flowing in our hospitals a record-breaking wave of excess deaths? Is this the return on investment that we were promised?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think it's important to base this conversation on facts. What the royal college has done is an estimation of figures. So, given the sensitivity of the issue, I think it's important to acknowledge that point. The investment that we've made into flow in our hospitals has been significant, and, as I mentioned in my answer to your colleague a few moments ago, is bearing fruit: significant numbers of thousands of extra bed days being made available because people are being discharged more quickly; people spending, on average, a week less in hospital than they would have otherwise. Those are individuals; those aren't bits of data. Those are individuals that are spending less time in hospital. And that's a good thing—they should be home and safely discharged.

There is, of course, a lot further to go, but it's absolutely right that we acknowledge the huge work that's happening in all parts of Wales between the NHS and local authorities, and acknowledge the fact that it's bearing fruit.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

The national figures released by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine are a tragedy, but the regional data is an indictment of this Government's management of north Wales. While only two hospitals in Wales managed to keep 12-hour waits under 10 per cent, every single major hospital in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area saw more than one in five patients waiting over 12 hours. At Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, nearly 30 per cent of patients—almost one in three—faced these dangerous delays. In Wrexham Maelor, the situation has spiralled, with a staggering 8 percentage point increase in 12-hour waits in just one year. This isn't due to a sudden surge in patients; the data shows attendances at these sites remained largely flat. Cabinet Secretary, why is it that, despite this Government's direct oversight of Betsi Cadwaladr, a patient in Rhyl or Wrexham is three times more likely to suffer a 12-hour wait than a patient in Cardiff? Why has your special measures status failed to provide basic emergency safety for the people of north Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think it's important to put the points you've made in context. I absolutely do recognise that the level of performance in urgent and emergency care in north Wales hospitals is absolutely not where it needs to be. But it's important to provide context to the points that you're making. Looking across Wales, the average time spent in emergency departments before triage was 16 minutes, and people typically waited one hour and 15 minutes before being assessed by a senior doctor. The average time spent in emergency departments before admission or going home was under three hours. That is the experience of most people in the healthcare system most of the time. And I think the context for the point you're making is important.

I do absolutely accept that the level of regional variation that you're rightly pointing out is not acceptable, and I've been very clear with the health board in relation to that. That's why they continue to be in special measures—one of the reasons—because that performance is not where it needs to be. You will also know that, before Christmas, I made available to the health board a specialist team to work with the senior executive team there specifically on this important issue, recognising absolutely just how important it is that patients in north Wales see the same improvements and the same benefits as patients in other parts of Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response. Now, as you prepare to stand down from public office, with the constant scrutiny and the pressures that come with that, and with a decade of committed service to this Senedd, the Government, and the people of Wales, I want to conclude by expressing my sincere thanks to you for your contribution to Welsh public life. I want to place on record that you have been respectful and kind to me on all occasions, and, despite our political differences, you have been gracious too. I wish you well, therefore, as you go about learning Spanish, enjoying the Spanish sun for a period, before moving on to contribute once again, I'm sure, to public life in Wales. So, thank you.

But, as we look forward to a new Government, and a new Minister, we do have to be honest. There have been mistakes and significant challenges over the years. However, there have also been times when the system has worked as it should. Our priority now is to ensure that we do things right, and that that is the norm rather than the exception. So, with that in mind, I want to ask you: in reflecting on your time in leading one the most challenging portfolios within Government, what do you consider are the fundamental barriers to delivering the systemic changes that are needed and ensuring the outcomes that patients and staff in our health and care system deserve?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I thank the Member for his opening comments, and for his kindness in that regard. It's been a pleasure also to respond to his questions. It's also been very encouraging to have had a few private positive conversations with him as well.

I'm going to disappoint him in that I'm not going to help him with his plans for the election. [Laughter.] It's clear, as the First Minister said yesterday, that there are too many parts of your plans that demand further consideration and thought. So, I'm not going to be part of that particular process on his behalf. What I will say is this, in all seriousness: what we are seeing now on the basis of the investment and the changes—not just the funding, but the changes that have been made over the last two years in particular, but before that too—we are seeing the health service coming back into balance.

So, the specialisms where the greatest progress has been made and where the greatest demand is, I would say that the 20 most important of those are now in a situation where they are sustainable. That provides an important opportunity to the health service not just to continue to perform, as we've seen, at levels that are breaking records at the moment, but also to use that and take that opportunity to reform further how services are provided. The horizon is clear to be able to do that, and to continue to do that, and we have seen over the past two years that that can make a huge difference, and that's what I hope to see, and I am confident that that's possible.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the supply of MenB vaccine for pharmacies to offer privately to the residents of Islwyn? OQ64060

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Private supplies of vaccination in pharmacies or other non-NHS providers sit outside of the Welsh Government’s procurement arrangements. The MenB vaccination is offered as part of the routine childhood programme for children at ages eight weeks, 12 weeks and 12 months, and there have been no issues with supply reported.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Diolch. The UK Government Minister for Health has asked the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation to re-examine the eligibility for the meningitis vaccine for a wider group of people, following the recent outbreak in Kent. And whilst we await the outcome of this re-examination, there has been an increase in demand from people seeking to purchase the meningitis B vaccine from pharmacies for their children.

The UK Health Security Agency announced that 20,000 additional vaccines are being made available to pharmacies. The National Pharmacy Association have warned that this number will be unlikely to meet current levels of demand across the UK. So, Cabinet Secretary, what actions will the Welsh Government take, if necessary, to ensure that pharmacies throughout Islwyn are able to meet the public demand for the meningitis B vaccine?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As you said in your question, the Welsh Government relies on the expert clinical advice of the JCVI in setting vaccination policy. We are working very closely with Public Health Wales, but with the UKHSA across the UK, to ensure that we keep under close surveillance these important developments, and, when we have further advice from the JCVI, of course we will consider that in the usual way in terms of our future vaccination policy. We are committed as well to keeping public health advice under constant supervision. You will be aware that I wrote to Members in the last few days setting out the Government's position in relation to that. Public Health Wales has also provided additional resources, both to universities and to the general public in relation to this.

As you know, as you mentioned in your question, UKHSA manages the procurement of vaccines for all the UK nations. We, as a Government, have no direct involvement in that, but I'm confident that UKHSA arrangements will be sufficient. Pharmacies in Wales have not raised any concerns with the Chief Pharmaceutical Officer for Wales. There is an understanding that their supply falls under their commercial non-NHS business, as you would expect.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the number of excess deaths associated with long waiting times in accident and emergency departments? OQ64031

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government draws on independent analyses, including by the Office for National Statistics and the Getting It Right First Time programme, which do show an association between the longest waits and higher mortality. NHS Wales Performance and Improvement is responsible for monitoring data, escalating concerns to the Welsh Government and holding health boards to account on excess mortality.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

Thank you, Minister. I heard Mabon ap Gwynfor question you in his contribution about the figures released by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, so he's taken the next part of my question away, and I heard your answer. But we know that, for every 72 patients who wait between eight and 12 hours for a bed, one additional death occurs. This is corridor care at its most lethal. That's not acceptable to patients and it's demoralising for hard-working staff. I do think the public deserves to know if the Welsh Government acknowledges these specific findings. With respect, the buck stops with you for the moment. So, I would ask that a formal assessment by the Welsh Government is made of these links between these extreme waiting times and patient mortality. Will you, Minister, commit—even at this last stage today—to a transparent Welsh-specific investigation into these excess deaths to ensure that waiting for a bed no longer carries a death sentence in our NHS? Do it, Minister—pass that baton to Mabon, and the results will be on his desk by May.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I don't know about that, but you were good in the first bit. [Laughter.]

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Could I suggest that we choose our language carefully in relation to such a sensitive area? You're perfectly entitled to—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

It isn't; it's happening in real life.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Allow the health Secretary to answer the question.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

You're perfectly entitled to put the question to me that you have, and I will answer it directly, but I do think it's important, given the sensitivity of the topic, that we address it with care.

The point I'm making to you is—and I made this point in answer to Mabon ap Gwynfor—the Government does recognise the seriousness of it. In the very first answer I gave you, I recognised the link between excessive waits and mortality. The Government understands the seriousness of the issue. We have a significant programme to be able to improve people's experience both from a patient experience point of view and a patient safety point of view in our urgent and emergency departments in all parts of Wales.

I'm happy to list the range of interventions that we have in place, but I'm sure you're familiar with them. Waiting for more than 12 hours is an unacceptable experience for anybody, both in terms of their clinical experience and their experience of being in the emergency department. That is not acceptable. I also think it's important that we recognise that is not the experience of the vast majority of people turning up to our A&E departments, where the average total wait between discharge or admission is under three hours. Now, we want to see that coming down, and that also is at the heart of the very significant funding that's going into the NHS to tackle this very issue.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

The Royal College of Emergency Medicine, RCEM, reports that over a quarter of patients at Wrexham Maelor, nearly a third at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and over a fifth at Ysbyty Gwynedd waited 12 hours or more for a care decision last month. Across Wales, 14 per cent waited 12 hours or longer, the worst February on record. The RCEM estimates that deaths associated with waits of 12 hours or more increased to at least 965 last year, averaging 18 preventable deaths per week. Snapshot data provided by them from Wales's 12 emergency departments recorded 22 per cent of patients in non-designated spaces. Forty-three per cent of these were awaiting in-patient beds, and 32 per cent were being treated in non-designated spaces—often the sickest patients. As the RCEM states, however, emergency department overcrowding is not inevitable. So, what action are you taking to improve hospital flow and reduce preventable mortality? And, given that NHS England has adopted a national definition of corridor care and will begin publishing monthly corridor care data from May, will you be doing the same, or are you just leaving this for the next Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I won't be the Minister in May, but I've committed previously to making that data available. It is important that people are able to look at it. We've been able, in the two sprints that we've had, at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, to improve the way in which that data is collected. It's obviously important that it's collected on a consistent basis and in a comprehensive way that enables us to have a clear picture. That is improving, but we haven't yet got the system to a place where it's captured in a sufficiently reliable way. I'm pretty confident that that will be resolved by, I would think, the summer. So, that will enable the Government and new Senedd, if it chooses to do that, to publish that data. I do agree with you, it is important for transparency.

On the range of other things that we are doing, we're funding falls co-ordination arrangements, we're funding single points of access, expanded same-day emergency care capacity, we're tightening up discharge processes and operational grip, we've funded local authorities and the health service with an extra £30 million specifically to transform pathways of care, and each health board has a plan, which is Getting It Right First Time approved, in order to improve flow in the emergency department and right through the hospital.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. None of us want to scaremonger, that's really important. However, this report from the royal college is very concerning. Whatever the numbers are, they are high numbers of people who have been waiting—who are waiting—and, sadly, don't make it to leave the hospital. That is really difficult, particularly if you're old, if you're vulnerable, if you're disabled, and you don't have anybody there to speak out, and to talk and to say, 'What is going on?' And there is a whole group of people who, sadly, don't have anybody there with them to advocate on their behalf. So, although I appreciate what you have to say, and we don't want a scaremonger, we don't want people to be fearful, there is still a significant degree of concern. You've talked a lot about this, and I don't really want to ask you the same question, but, really, it's important that the Government, in your response—. You've acknowledged that there needs to be improvement, but what else can you do to certainly ensure that those vulnerable people are protected and have a voice when they are waiting for somebody to attend to them? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm grateful to you for the way in which you've put the question, and I think I've listed the steps that we're taking specifically in order to support a better patient experience in the urgent and emergency part of our health system. We are seeing improvements. I think it's important that we acknowledge that, but there are parts of the system where that isn't happening quickly enough, as I acknowledged in my answer to Mabon ap Gwynfor earlier today. The Government is focused on it. It's funding health boards many hundreds of millions of pounds in addition to its core funding to be able to improve the experience, and we are seeing that improvement. We want to see that happening everywhere and faster.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, it's a national disgrace. One death is a death too many. People go to A&E to get fixed. They expect timely emergency care. Instead, we're seeing reports from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine that too many people are waiting in corridors, too many people are waiting 12 hours plus, and the attention that they're receiving in A&E whilst waiting is not good enough. I have a list as long as my arm of constituents that have waited 15 hours, 18 hours, 22 hours. One of those is me. I had a gentleman next to me who'd waited even longer. He was 80 years old, he had a massive hernia poking out of him, and yet he went home because he couldn't wait any longer. I am not surprised by these reports at all. These reports that are showing excessive deaths in A&E departments are not a surprise, but it's no reflection of the emergency staff who work extremely hard and are at breaking point. But this is a national disgrace, Cabinet Secretary. Will you take this opportunity to apologise to my constituents on behalf of your Government, and those families who have lost loved ones because of this? And do you regret that, in your time as Cabinet Secretary, you have allowed this to continue?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I don't accept the last point of the Member's question, obviously. I am very sorry for anybody who has an experience in any part of the NHS that does not live up to the standards that we all expect. I hope that she found the answers I've given to colleagues helpful in addressing her other points.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

A huge success within our NHS—and we should acknowledge a huge success—is, I believe, our minor injuries units. You've heard me mention these before. As many as 100 per cent of patients are seen within a four-hour waiting time target at Barry Hospital MIU. Though, there is a real issue: that fantastic MIU is only open Monday to Friday between 09:00 and 15:30. Additionally, the injuries and illnesses that can be treated are limited. I believe expanding the service at Barry MIU and other minor injuries units would reduce pressure on our A&Es—A&Es such as Bridgend, the Heath and Llantrisant. Whilst I'm already in contact with Cardiff and Vale University Health Board about what I consider is the amazing potential in Barry, do you agree with me that expanding medical services in the south of Glamorgan could help reduce pressure on A&Es elsewhere in the region? Diolch yn fawr.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, expanding minor injuries access is something that we are looking at and delivering in all parts of Wales. It's important that we are making sure that the blend of services meets the patients’ expectations, and that people are turning up to the right places for the right treatment. That's obviously challenging in quite a complex health landscape. Of course, in order to get a clear understanding of where the best place is to go for the care that we need, NHS 111 is the best port of call for any patient looking for where they can get the most rapid access to the service they need.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce missed appointments across NHS services? OQ64033

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I've clearly stated my expectation that the NHS must reduce missed appointments. A national target of 5 per cent or less as a percentage of all appointments, has been set for the number of non-attended appointments, and the out-patient national strategy now provides the tools needed to help the NHS to achieve this.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you'll be aware of the disastrous plans to centralise services in Hywel Dda—emergency general surgery away from Withybush and stroke services away from Bronglais. I recently met with the Community Transport Association of Wales, whose research shows that over 60 per cent of their journeys are to health appointments. Crucially, around a third of those patients would not be able to attend without that support, thus potentially missing or cancelling appointments. Given the health board's plans to move services away from constituents, many of whom are reliant on community and voluntary transport, this, of course, increases the risk of missed appointments. So, can you confirm, in deciding on its plan to centralise services away from these two hospitals, whether the health board undertook a review into transport, and specifically community transport, and whether an assessment was made of the potential increase in missed appointments?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, as you know, no decision has finally been taken on the configuration of services at Bronglais. And in relation to the services at Withybush, there are already arrangements to transport patients between Withybush and Glangwili. The Member will know, from the public accountability meeting that I held with the health board in relation to its clinical services plan, that I sought assurance that plans for the transport element of the delivery of the service were taken fully into account as those service changes are implemented. And if the Member hasn't had a chance to look at that, I would recommend that he does.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Of course, missed appointments are an incredibly serious issue, and we know that there will be a number of missed appointments and cancelled appointments in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board as a result of the way in which the health board have been treating their health visitors. We had a question about meningitis B vaccinations, and the Cabinet Secretary referenced the childhood vaccination programme. Well, who are the people who advise on that programme to parents? So, it is all-important that we get this issue resolved as soon as possible.

The latest in this dispute is: health visitors have been issued with pay slips, but haven't been paid; they've had money taken back from them; they've had annual leave cancelled and withdrawn, despite that being agreed pre strike; and, on top of that now, we're seeing the health board attempting to break the strike by outsourcing within the service. And that was completely avoidable. The health visitors themselves were willing to ensure that 80 per cent of the services were still happening during the strike period. So, it was a completely avoidable situation. I could go on.

Of course, the Cabinet Secretary referenced social partnership as being incredibly important to resolving this dispute, but social partnership only works when both sides are willing to come to the table, and Cwm Taf Morgannwg have proven time and time again that they're unwilling to come to the table. So, I would urge the Cabinet Secretary to not bury his head in the sand, step in now, enforce social partnership, and I would also ask him to commit now to an investigation into how the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board has acted during this dispute. I am pretty sure that investigation would uncover some shocking practices.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

[Inaudible.]—people is the resolution of this dispute as early as possible. It is a local dispute. That's not just my view; it's also Unite's view and the health board's view. I've met both with the health board and with Unite, and I have made it very clear that I expect this dispute to be resolved and resolved quickly. I've asked for the ACAS dates to be brought forward and, as a result, they have been. My understanding is that both parties are back in ACAS before the end of this week. And I think it's time for both parties to resolve this dispute. That will require compromise, and it isn't easy, but that is what they are there to do. And I've made my expectation clear that I want this dispute resolved for the very reason that the Member points out. We want to make sure those health visitors, which do work that is so important, are able to be there supporting mums and their children.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

One of the things that can be done to help reduce missed appointments is to make access to the health service easier and more widespread. That is actually about taking services out of hospitals, often, and out of places where they're undertaken. There are good examples in the Choose Pharmacy service, the way that vaccinations are delivered in pharmacies, and, of course, the eye health examination Wales service successfully takes services into high-street optometry. There's also an opportunity to do that with audiology—trusted healthcare professionals who can work in a community to help deliver access in a trusted service. We found it with optometry and pharmacy—the public trusts those people, they know they're registered healthcare professionals, and it does not undermine the NHS. It adds to access, and actually a much better experience for the person who needs care and treatment.

Will you consider using that network of audiologists, some of whom work within the NHS, some of whom work with independent contractors, just like high-street optometry, to ensure there is greater access to audiology services, to help reduce waiting times, and, crucially, to improve the experience and outcomes for the people that we serve?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I do agree with the Member that it's really important to do all that we can to move services closer to where people use them. He is right to say that the experience people have of optometry has changed significantly over the last many years. We now make sure that people can be referred directly for cataracts from optometrists, which is a big step forward. From an audiology point of view, obviously, when we are looking at where services are located, making sure that the skills and the capacity are in the right place to deliver that is absolutely crucial. I am about to, or I may have already—I can't quite remember the timing—have issued a statement in relation to the quality standards for audiology. I'm sure that if that has not yet been published, when it is published, the Member will see some positive steps in that space.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the priorities for tackling pain in the Welsh Government's Women’s Health Plan? OQ64046

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes. We have consistently heard that women and girls feel that they are not heard, and their pain and symptoms are ignored or dismissed. Ensuring that their voices are heard in every interaction they have with the NHS is vital and, crucially, will improve women's outcomes and experiences of services.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Can I welcome the words you've said? I have welcomed the women's health plan, which is something that I and others have called for for a long time. I would pay tribute to what Sarah Murphy has done alongside you on this. Too many women have had to deal with unnecessary pain when accessing healthcare. How many women, I wonder, have been told at some point in their lives by doctors, 'This might hurt', and have been expected to accept pain as normal? There are shocking numbers of women suffering from conditions like endometriosis who have had to fight to get their symptoms recognised, when time after time they have been dismissed by too many clinicians who have doubted their testimony.

There are brilliant doctors who get it, but there are still too many who don't. Women should be believed about their own bodies. This normalisation of women's pain has to be challenged. So, yes, I do welcome the steps that have been taken to address this, but would you agree with me that there is so much further we need to go, so that no women feel frightened to go to their doctor and no women have to accept their pain as a regrettable but just normal part of life?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I agree entirely that women's experiences should be believed in relation to their pain. I would associate myself with the comments that you have made in relation to that. Sarah Murphy, of course, has led for the Government in relation to this important work. I pay tribute to her in her absence, on maternity leave, for the work that she has done proactively to fulfil one of the First Minister's key priorities in this area. Every health board now in Wales has a women's health hub. As of last week, a new women's health website was launched to provide support, information and signposting for women. She will also know that significant steps—she mentioned endometriosis particularly in her question—she will know that there have been significant steps, led by Health Education and Improvement Wales, to commission training for doctors and other clinicians in order to help tackle the challenge that she absolutely correctly sets out. There is a way to go in order to make sure that the experience of the best is shared much more widely and made the universal experience of women as they see their GP.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

It's quite some time ago that Suzy Davies, the previous woman Member here, pointed out that too many people—women—suffer with endometriosis and the extreme pain that comes with it. One in 10 have this condition. Wales has roughly 1.6 million women and girls, and 10 per cent of that is around 150,000 to 160,000 women. This figure is likely an underestimate, because many cases go undiagnosed and many women feel it's too embarrassing to go to a GP. On average, women in Wales can wait around 10 years for a diagnosis. The condition does cause chronic pain, fatigue and fertility issues. Will you, as Cabinet Secretary, ensure that, when moving on, whoever takes over your role as the new Cabinet Secretary for health emphasises tackling endometriosis in the women's sector for health? Because, as I say, we talk about it a lot, we now need to see action. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, reflecting the point that Delyth Jewell made, as well as the point that you just made, significant improvements to training on endometriosis are being made. We funded the Endometriosis Cymru website, which includes resources, information and a symptom tracker. In March of last year, HEIW ran an expert-led GP training webinar on endometriosis to support earlier symptom recognition, which is absolutely vital. And HEIW are developing further training modules, which will be available to all staff, and, indeed, externally as well. Most recently, in December, learning materials for school nurses to use in secondary schools were launched as well to support awareness, and I had a conversation with a young woman in a school in my constituency about this only last week.

And, finally, just to say that a task and finish group has been set up of key clinicians with specialist skills from the gynaecology clinical implementation network, and it's developing tertiary endometriosis care service specifications as well, including pathways for women. So, I think there's quite a significant body of work already under way on this very, very important issue.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on recruitment to the Wales cardiac clinical lead role? OQ64026

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

NHS Wales Performance and Improvement is currently reviewing its clinical leadership roles as part of a wider organisational redesign. Approval has been granted to appoint an interim national clinical lead for cardiology, with the post due to be advertised by April this year.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. As you'll be well aware, the Wales cardiac clinical lead role has been vacant since October 2025. Clinical leads are fundamental to deliver high-quality, consistent care and safeguard patient safety all across Wales. They provide a real-world insight into how services operate and patient care complexities, including risk management, clinical workflows and the practical application of policy. Without national clinical oversight, Wales risks fragmented planning, inconsistent adoption of evidence-based practice and slower progress on safety and quality. There are more than 400,000 people in Wales currently living with cardiovascular disease, Cabinet Secretary, and 63,000 of those within my own local health board of Aneurin Bevan.

So, can the Cabinet Secretary please confirm that improving outcomes in patient safety for those affected by cardiovascular disease remains a priority for the Welsh Government, and that the cardiac clinical lead role will now be progressed at pace? I appreciate the date that you just gave, Cabinet Secretary. And it's not just the cardiac role that is vacant; the Wales clinical lead for musculoskeletal health role has also not been filled. So, can you please provide an update on recruitment for this job as well, given that nearly 1 million people in Wales live with arthritis and MSK conditions here? Thank you so much.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I hope the Member will be happy to hear the date I gave in relation to the appointment of the cardiology clinical lead. The broader point is this, though: NHS performance and improvement is a redesigned organisation. It has evolved from the NHS Wales Executive and the entire purpose of that redesign was to point the resources and the expertise available in NHSPI to the Government's priorities for the NHS. And necessarily, in making that change, as you would probably expect, there is a process, then, of realigning that capability and resource within NHSPI, so that it can focus in in a laser-like way on all of those priorities. So, we are in the process of that happening at the moment. It's obviously being done within NHSPI. So, making sure those clinical leadership roles are focused on where we need the improvement to be is critical to that. That's the process that's under way. I'm confident it's the right thing to do. I also know that there will be organisations that are concerned that that reorganisation is under way. What I would say is that it's being done in a strategic way and I'm confident that it will lead to us being able to support the system better than we've been able to do in the past.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Buffy Williams.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

8. How is the Welsh Government improving access to health care and support for residents in Rhondda? OQ64044

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Local health boards are responsible for the planning and delivery of access to safe, quality healthcare services for their local population. We continue to support health boards to make improvements with additional finance, direct intervention and support from NHS Wales Performance and Improvement.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Health visitors are a lifeline, health visitors like Gemma and Joanne in Rhondda. They're often the first person families turn to when they are worried, struggling or just need reassurance. They understand the pressures people are facing and step in early before small worries become bigger problems. In communities like Rhondda, that support matters. When health visitors are not there, families feel that loss, and so do the wider services that depend on their work. That's why I continue to support their decision to take strike action. No-one takes the step of striking lightly, especially in a role that is so rooted in care and commitment to others. Residents in Rhondda want to know that everything possible is being done, not only to restore the essential support for local families, but to ensure health visitors are being valued and paid the rate they deserve. Now, I know the Cabinet Secretary has touched on this issue, but I would be grateful if you could let me know what discussions you've had with Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board regarding this situation, and what support or action you can provide to help bring about a fair and swift resolution.

And I also think I'm asking you your last question—I think I might be right—here today, so I'd like to wish you the very best with whatever you decide to do in the future.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Members have been very generous in their compliments today. I'm grateful for that.

The Member makes a very important point about the work that Gemma and Joanne and others do, and just how important it is that we acknowledge how vital the work of health visitors is, and that's exactly why I've been very clear the dispute needs to be resolved. Although it's not a national dispute, I spoke with both the health board and Unite at the start of last week; I urged both to work together in social partnership to resolve the dispute. I asked the health board to bring forward the next ACAS meeting, which they have now done, and I've set out my clear expectation that the job evaluation process needs to be honoured. There is a separate national process that NHS Wales Employers is co-ordinating across a range of job descriptions, in order that we can avoid this kind of situation arising in future, and I asked Unite to engage with that as well. It will benefit their members in the future in other parts of Wales, in other parts of the health service. So, I'm happy to repeat that position today in the Chamber. This dispute needs to be resolved, and I hope both parties will take all the steps open to them to do that quickly.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Muchas gracias, Ministro.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical—[Interruption.] Sí.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

May I take the opportunity as well, Llywydd, if I may, for one second, to say 'thank you very much' to all the people who, every month, are behind the work that goes into preparing answers for these questions? They don't get the credit in the Chamber, sometimes, that they deserve. [Applause.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Yes, indeed. Thank you very much.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical questions are next, and the only question accepted today is by David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the UK Government's steel strategy on the future of the steel industry in Wales? TQ1456

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I welcome the UK steel strategy, which is also being welcomed by steel producers and unions. Welsh producers such as Tata Steel and 7 Steel will benefit from the strategy, including the commitment that more of the steel used in Britain will be made in Britain.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary, and I too welcome the strategy, though it's long in its time coming. But we now appreciate very much the action the UK Government has taken to look at how we can support the steel sector in the UK, and particularly here in Wales. I was pleased to join the First Minister last week when she visited the Port Talbot works with the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, Peter Kyle, to actually launch that strategy.

The statement the First Minister put out last week, the written statement, was okay, but I want to know where we go from here, because it is important that we know what happens next. The trade unions welcomed it, but again, what happens next? Now, for example, we got a statement from the Secretary of State for Wales who said,

'Welsh steel is expected to account for half of future UK steelmaking.'

Fantastic. And that they'll

'Confirm electric arc furnaces...like that being built in Port Talbot, as the future of British steelmaking'.

That's great. But then it says:

'Launch a cross-government working group to secure a sustainable supply of scrap metal for UK steelmakers',

which is what we need. I want to know where the Welsh Government involvement is in all this. How are you having an input into this to make sure that Welsh voices are heard at the tables where these decisions will be made?

Also, it says that the Welsh Secretary of State will convene a new initiative with the national wealth fund and the private sector to unlock investments into Welsh steel and related industries. Where is the Welsh Government's voice in that process to ensure that, again, we get Welsh steel makers and Welsh steelworkers getting the benefits of this steel strategy? That's crucially important.

So, where is the additional investment in steel coming from? Where are you doing it? What's happening? What discussions are you having with Tata and 7 Steel? Because they are private businesses, but they need that investment. And where are they going with the investment? Now that they have certainty of the future for the steel market, what are their plans and how can we help them? Because it's great having an electric arc furnace, but we need more than that. We need a direct reduced iron furnace to help support different qualities from steel. So, what discussions are you having with those investors to provide certainty?

And the employment opportunities. Lots of people have left the steel industry. We know that over 2,000 have already gone. Many have actually gone to other places around the UK, and they're okay for now. They're travelling. They've got jobs. But when those projects come to an end, they'll come back, probably. What's going to be here for them? How are we going to retrain and develop them? And how are we going to make sure the future industries in the area will be there, whether it's in offshore wind or in steel, making sure that they come back to somewhere, and the economy of our town strengthens?

We are pleased to hear the electric arc furnace has progressed. I saw it last week. There is progress being made. But we need to know that the sustainability and the opportunity for young people and those who come back is going to be there. All these issues about investment in the future are crucial. We make coil, but we also make steel. Coil isn't used everywhere, but the steel can be. But we need the qualities of it. So, what are you doing to make sure that the long-term future of this strategy is delivered in Port Talbot?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'd like to begin by paying tribute to David Rees for his long-term strong voice for the steel community here in Wales, which continues today.

I've been really pleased to work alongside the UK Government on the steel strategy. I represented the Welsh Government on the Steel Council, and I'm sure that future Ministers will have the opportunity to be involved in that Steel Council. We met for the most recent meeting last week, and it was agreed that there is definitely a role for that council moving forward, although it might evolve and potentially expand its membership. There are a range of specific work streams under that, which, again, the Welsh Government must be involved in, particularly, for example, around scrap, which is very important to us and to the future of steel in Wales.

In terms of where does the investment come from, the UK Government has in place the national wealth fund, and I was really pleased that the steel strategy does talk about co-investment with the steel industry. That will help, I think, de-risk some of the choices that the private companies will need to make. Again, that's something really positive that was in the steel strategy.

I think the recognition of the importance of developing the skilled workforce for the future within the strategy is really important. Again, I'm really pleased to see that there's a specific recognition that there has to be a line to the skills priorities of the Welsh Government. The strategy talks about the funding and regulation of the tertiary education and research sector by Medr. It talks about the important investment that we're making through our flexible skills programme and the upcoming national skills audit for Wales. So, there is a clear recognition of the devolved context within that important steel skills conversation for the future.

In other conversations, I've been able to represent Welsh interests and the Welsh Government on the Interministerial Group for Trade. We had our most recent meeting a couple of weeks ago, and steel was a specific item on that agenda as well. So, there have been multiple opportunities through those formal structures, and then also through bilateral meetings with the Minister for Industry, Chris McDonald, for example, to talk about the Welsh steel sector and our priorities here in Wales.

I think the engagement has been good. That engagement will obviously have to continue in the future as well. And, of course, I'm really looking forward to attending the next meeting of the Tata Steel transition board tomorrow, which I know David Rees has played a key role on in recent times as well. I'm looking forward to discussing how the steel strategy can be brought to life within Port Talbot and the surrounding area.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I'm grateful to David Rees for submitting this topical question today. Like you, Cabinet Secretary, I commend him for the work he’s done from the back benches in advocating for steelworks in south Wales specifically. What I want to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, is this: given the importance of steel to our defence sector at the moment, and the ever-changing global turbulence that we’re feeling, what discussions are you having, or have you had, with the UK Government around its defence strategy, which is yet to be published, and the role for Welsh steel and British steel within our defence capabilities and our defence procurement? Secondly, given that energy costs are one of the most prescribing elements as to the inefficiency of British steel, have you explored with your colleagues in the UK Government the possibilities of direct electricity generation on site in south Wales to reduce the cost of electricity for steel making at a new electric arc furnace at Port Talbot?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for those questions. In relation to defence, again, I’m very pleased that the steel strategy explicitly recognises the importance of defence, but the importance of our steel industry to be able to service that growing defence industry that we have in Wales. Colleagues will be familiar with the defence growth deal, which we worked really closely with the UK Government on in terms of delivering that for Wales. That's £50 million of investment into our defence industry here in Wales.

We already are home to eight of the 10 global largest defence companies, but also, equally importantly, to a really vibrant range of supply chain companies operating in Wales. We would expect that sector to grow, and I think we're well placed to do so. I was really pleased to launch the defence cluster recently, bringing together the primes, but also, again, crucially, the supply chain and small and medium-sized enterprises to be able to maximise their ability to make the most of the MOD contracts and so on, which will be forthcoming as a result of the increased spend on defence. It's good to see the join-up with the steel strategy.

Again, reducing electricity prices is a key part of the steel strategy. It references the UK Government's clean energy superpower mission, and the long-term plan it has for cheaper, more secure and clean home-grown power. It also talks about the work that they're doing through the UK Government's energy-intensive industries compensation scheme to meet the objective of bringing electricity costs closer in line with those in competitor countries to increase industrial competitiveness. So, I think there are some really good actions within the steel strategy, which we've been able to welcome.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Of course, the steel strategy is a welcome document. It has already been alluded to that it was delayed, but I think, now that we have it, it shows a clear signal of intent on what the progress will be for the steel industry. I particularly welcome some of those tariffs that have been announced as part of that strategy. What I think workers were looking for in the steel strategy, and a number of us in this Chamber as well, and Dai Rees has alluded to it already, is what is that road map now for the industry based here in Wales, what does this strategy actually mean on the ground for workers in Port Talbot and elsewhere across Wales.

What I want to try and tease out of you is the detail on what specifically the Welsh Government has been bidding for as part of that steel fund, as part of the national wealth fund, for it to come to Wales. So, for example, how much should be ring-fenced for Wales? What's the figure the Government has put to the UK Government? Will we see a plate mill, something that we've all across this Chamber been calling for for some time now? Will we see hydrogen steel being developed across the road in 7 Steel? Will we see a steel skills college? These are all questions that I am finding now are being asked, not just by a number of us in this Chamber, but by our constituents as well who work in that industry. A lot of promises have been made to workers within the steel industry over the years by various Governments. I think it's about time now we started putting clear proposals on the table, and we start progressing with those proposals.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

In terms of the workforce, engagement with the workforce is absolutely critical. I was able to sit down with representatives from the range of unions that represent steelworkers in Wales and hear from them directly about their concerns. They were really concerned that the steel strategy should be published so that they could understand where the next steps are for the industry here in Wales. I do think now that it has been welcomed by the workforce.

I will say as well that one of my reflections at the most recent Steel Council meeting was actually how this piece of work has been a really good example of the kind of social partnership approach that we take in the Welsh Government. Having industry and the unions around the table with the UK Government, the Welsh Government and others I think has been a really productive way in which to tackle what is a real challenge in terms of putting the steel industry in the UK on a strong footing for the future. I think that way of working has definitely paid dividends.

When I met with the Minister for Industry, Chris McDonald, a couple of weeks ago, I was really keen to impress upon him the importance of UK Government Ministers sitting down with the unions when they came to Tata to launch the plan. I think that the fact that those conversations did happen was really important in terms of continuing that relationship. Communication has to be absolutely key in the future. I think there's always more that UK Government—and we—can be doing in terms of communicating with the steel unions. Of course, we've got the Tata transition board tomorrow, which will be an opportunity to have some of those conversations.

In terms of the priority areas that we saw for the strategy, one of the areas that I talked about a great deal in the conversations I've had with the UK Government and others was about ensuring that Wales's world-leading research, development and innovation capacity and capability here is recognised, and I'm really pleased that it is recognised in the strategy. The UK Government and partner agencies will continue to support steel RD&I through a range of funding routes, including £11 million over seven years from the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council to the IGNITE research programme. I think there are multiple opportunities for Swansea University in particular, but others as well, to be engaging and looking for partnerships and collaboration on the academia and research and development side.

The Steel Council has commenced work to set up an industry working group to align RD&I activities to the needs of the industry, with the aim of enhancing sector competitiveness as well. That's all really important. But I also want to mention how important procurement is in this space as well. Just to let colleagues know, for the new financial year, I'm issuing a Welsh procurement policy note. It's entitled 'Sourcing steel in major construction and infrastructure projects in Wales', and it does ask for all Welsh contracting authorities to report on projects with a value over £2 million where steel is a component. It will allow greater visibility on the pipeline of opportunities and greater transparency in terms of the amount of British-made steel that is used in those contracts.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

My first substantive contribution in this place nearly a decade ago was to make the case about the Shotton Tata site as part of the then Save Our Steel campaign. I really want to break the cycle and see that the foundational sector of steel thrives, not simply survives from what seems like one crisis to the next. I think the well-awaited and well-warranted steel strategy is a start, alongside the 50 per cent target for producing steel domestically, which should bring benefits. We want to bring those benefits to sites right across Wales.

As we heard from others, that road map moving forward does need clear, measurable targets and ambition as part of that. There's clearly a role for the UK Government and the Welsh Government in ensuring that the funding support is ring-fenced for here and for sites in Wales. But what came across in our committee session this morning with the steel sector is the role for industry in the sector itself and the need for them to plan beyond transition and plan well into the future in terms of what that pipeline of investment looks like. What can the Welsh Government do to work with the sector to get them to demonstrate a longer term vision and commitment and to literally put their money where their mouth is? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The parts of the steel strategy that look at how support can be financed will be really important for industry moving forward. I've mentioned the national wealth fund. That's £5.8 billion of capital to allocate across five clean energy and advanced manufacturing sectors over the course of the UK Parliament, and that does include steel. I would absolutely encourage businesses to be talking to the national wealth fund about the range of products that are on offer, including debt, equity and guarantees for capital-intensive projects. But alongside that, there is additional support available through the British Business Bank, UK Export Finance and also the national investment bank. So, there are a lot of opportunities for industry to explore how they can work with Government to access finance for investment.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, the backdrop to this is that Wales sees the UK Government not stepping in for Port Talbot, but it did for Scunthorpe and Rotherham. So, we do need to get this right, to restore confidence, because steel is in our blood, it's the backbone of our economy. As we've heard, the UK Government's lack of clarity over funding and timelines for Welsh steel is causing concern. There are clear delays in building a home-grown supply chain. Sam Kurtz has talked about the defence industry, but I want that home-grown supply chain for the offshore wind sector particularly. Without that, it threatens both our industry and our green energy transition. So, you've answered a lot of questions here, but could I just ask you one specific question, and that is: could you confirm that the electric arc furnace at Tata Steel will be operational by 2027, as my reading of it is it's now expected in 2028? Please could you just confirm that? Thank you. Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for that question. I think that is a question for Tata rather than for myself. I think that anyone who is familiar with the area can see that, actually, there are spades in the ground, things are happening and the investment is taking shape. So, I think that that's all really positive. There'll be an opportunity, I think, for us to have that particular conversation with Tata at the transition board meeting tomorrow. I know they'll want to provide us with an update on progress at that meeting.

Then, I think that point about restoring confidence is really important, because the steel strategy itself really looks to stabilise the sector and to ensure its viability for the future. I recognise the concerns that have been raised by colleagues about the time that it has taken to provide the steel strategy—those are concerns that we've also raised with the UK Government. But actually, in the event, I do think it is important that the strategy was published at the same time as the UK steel trade measures. I think bringing those two things together, and doing so before the end of March, which was a critical date for the sector, has been really important in terms of giving that full picture in terms of how the UK Government is seeking to protect steel in the immediate instance, particularly in regard to trade with the EU and the US, but then, also, what it will do to return domestic production to levels that are in excess of the current picture, so wanting to return to recently sustained levels of around 40 per cent to 50 per cent of domestic steel demand, compared to 30 per cent in 2024. So, I think that that is a good ambition, and it's certainly one that I think the steel strategy now puts us on a strong footing to achieve.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

It is very welcome, Cabinet Secretary, that we now have a steel strategy for Wales and the UK, and I'm grateful to the Government Ministers, the industry and the unions for their work on it. It is a matter of urgency, though, I think, to make it a reality on the ground. We know that we live in an increasingly volatile and unstable world, and our strategic steel industry must be supported to produce goods for our manufacturing, defence and construction industries. At Llanwern, in Newport East, we have a young and very committed workforce, eager to play a part in the green steel future that we can have. When I last met with them, Cabinet Secretary, they emphasised the capacity and the eagerness within Llanwern to produce new products, to decrease that reliance on imports that we have. You've outlined some of the progress that is being made and is expected, but there is a lot to do; we still import a lot of steel products that we could produce for ourselves.

So, I just wonder if you would assure me, Cabinet Secretary—obviously, we await the next Welsh Government—that you believe that Welsh Government needs to work with the UK Government and the industry to make sure that we do reduce that reliance on imports, and that plants like Llanwern can play an important part in achieving that progress.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for the question, and I'm sure that any Welsh Government in future will want to work really closely with the UK Government to support our steel industry in Wales, just recognising how critical it is. And I'm sure that any Welsh Government—at least I hope they would—would want to do more to mobilise demand for domestic steel as well, to enable our own steel industry here in Wales to have that greater visibility of future work, and then greater ability to invest in new products and so forth for the future.

I think there's a genuine recognition of how critical the steel industry is for us here in Wales, in terms of employment, but now I think there is a greater understanding than ever, given the volatile situations and times that we live in globally, about how important it is that we're able to meet as much demand domestically as we possibly can.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Three Members have now asked what is the destination of this road map, and I don't think we've quite heard the detail from you this afternoon, as regards, as David Rees asked you, what is the Welsh Government particularly bidding for, what are they looking for. My colleague Luke Fletcher asked about, for instance, the plate mill, or the steel skills college. Are those things—? You've talked about the collaboration and hearing the workforce's voice, and talking about working with academia, but what is your vision? What do you want to see for the reality on the ground, coming out of this skills strategy, for the workers that I represent?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, I think it almost misses the point, actually, that industry is going to be critical in leading some of this. So, it will require industry to invest. So, Welsh Government and UK Government want to create the conditions for industry to invest, and that includes ensuring that there is that greater visibility of the pipeline of demand. It's about ensuring that there's an enabling environment whereby we're investing in skills and ensuring that the industry has the skilled workers that it needs for the future. It's about ensuring that there are greater levels of demand. We can't remove the industry from that conversation, so industry itself also needs to understand where the opportunities lie. And I do think that the steel strategy goes about doing that. And I think that the fact that it sets out the ambition of moving to around 50 per cent of domestic steel demand being serviced by British steel I think sets out a real clear direction of travel. Industry will know where the opportunities lie in relation to that. And we talk to the unions—they've got really strong ideas that they will want to impress upon businesses.

At the moment, Tata's focus is very much on the delivery of the electric arc furnace. I know that they'll want to think about where the next steps come, but we can't decide that for them. What we can do is try and create that enabling environment whereby they have the confidence to invest.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And on behalf of us all, I'm sure, I'd like to wish you well as you leave this Senedd in the next few hours. [Applause.]

4. Debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report, 'Teacher Recruitment and Retention'

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 4 is a debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee report, 'Teacher recruitment and retention'. And the Chair is moving the motion—Buffy Williams.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Diolch, Llywydd. It's a privilege to open what will be the final Children, Young People and Education Committee debate of this Senedd term. Over the last five years, we've brought a wide range of issues into this Chamber. At the heart of them all has been the real lived experiences of children and young people, and that's what has shaped our work more than anything else. Sometimes that's meant sharing difficult and powerful stories. I'll always remember our debate on care services, when the public gallery was full of children, young people and the people who support them, watching us, holding us to account and reminding us exactly why this work matters. We heard those same powerful voices when we looked at the experiences of disabled children and their families in education and childcare. Those stories stayed with us and directly shaped the recommendations we made and the changes we pushed for. We've also tackled everything from education reform and mental health support in higher education to post-16 pathways, attendance and peer-on-peer sexual harassment, just to name a few.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

It's been an absolute honour to be part of this committee and even more so to chair it since May 2024. I want to thank all Members who've been part of it over this term. But more than anything, I want to say 'thank you' to everyone outside this Chamber who has contributed, whether that's through written evidence, speaking to us on visits, taking part in engagement sessions, or giving evidence in person. You are the foundation of everything we do. Your time, your honesty and your experiences shaped our work, and we are incredibly grateful.

I will now move on to our final report, which we are debating today: 'Teacher recruitment and retention'. This stemmed directly from our scrutiny of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill. It was clear from our legislative scrutiny that we needed to look at recruitment and retention issues more broadly. Thank you to my fellow committee members, as well as the organisations, current teachers, ex-teachers and school leaders who took time out from their very busy day jobs to contribute to our inquiry. Again, it's your lived experience that has helped shape our recommendations.

You may have seen in the press over the weekend calls from headteachers that recruitment and retention should be a top priority. It is a real and pressing issue, and we know how important it is. Children only get one chance at school: one chance to give them the building blocks for the rest of their lives, one chance to spark the interest that the child didn’t know they had, and in some instances, one chance to show that child that they matter.

Before coming into politics, I spent most of my working life in schools. I loved it. But I also know the challenges—the issues that can grind down even the most dedicated professional. And these challenges have expanded and grown since I was last in a classroom.

Teaching has a perception issue. We don’t want to shy away from the very real challenges teachers face, but we also didn’t want to talk teaching down or play into negative portrayals. Teaching changes lives in a very direct and significant way, and not just as a one-off, but every day, week, month and year. How many other jobs or careers do this in such a sustained way?

The true highlight of this inquiry was when we asked people why they went into teaching or why they’ve stayed. Faces lit up, enthusiasm bubbled over. I wish—I really wish—we could capture that positivity about teaching and share it across Wales so that we can engage and enthuse the next generation of teachers. It certainly resonated with me, and reminded me of my happiest times in the classroom. Everyone needs to play their role in celebrating the amazing work teachers do day in and day out.

While our inquiry was focused on teachers, I want to be very clear that a school and a school's workforce is not just its teachers—it’s the teaching assistants who work so closely with them in the classroom, it’s the caretakers who ensure that the building is working, it’s the office staff who make sure everything is organised, it’s the catering staff making sure everyone is fed, it’s the cleaners making sure that our schools are clean and safe places for everyone, it’s the pastoral support workers who support children and families. But our inquiry was focused on teachers and, therefore, the rest of my comments will maintain this focus.

We made 16 recommendations in total. All of them were accepted by the Welsh Government. I would like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for her positive engagement with our work. During our scrutiny session, it was obvious that the Cabinet Secretary accepted the challenges facing the teaching profession and did not shy away from them. We hope these positive sentiments will now translate into changes that can be felt by current teachers, but also encourage more people to go into teaching in the first place.

As can be seen in the Welsh Government response, a lot of emphasis has been placed on the strategic education workforce plan. This was published last week. It was good to see that our report has informed the evidence base for this plan. There is much in it that chimes with our findings and our evidence. Although, and this may not be surprising, I think the plan could benefit from clearer timelines, milestones and outcomes to help the next Senedd and stakeholders to hold the Government to account on its delivery and impact. In some places, it will be difficult to assess whether the Government or other key stakeholders have delivered on specific actions. I’d welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s views on how she envisages delivery and impact being monitored.

The five key themes in the plan very much mirror the issues that were raised with us. Particularly, I am pleased that one of the key themes is addressing workload issues. Workload is one of the biggest factors driving out dedicated teachers. It also makes the profession less attractive to potential new teachers. We all know that schools have faced immense levels of change over recent years, some the result of policy changes such as the new curriculum and ALN reforms, others due to factors outside of everybody’s control, such as the pandemic. It’s created a perfect storm, driving up workload.

Alongside this, society, local authorities, Government, parents, all of us, expect schools to do so much more than they once did. Whilst schools can do so much, we have to be realistic about the level to which they can solve the wider ills of society. Schools need to be able to focus on their primary purpose.

We heard that the work of the workload co-ordination group, while important, has been focused at school-leader level. There has not yet been an impact in individual classrooms. Please can the Cabinet Secretary outline how she envisages that the actions in the workforce plan will directly address classroom teachers’ workload, and by when would she want to see teachers noticing a reduction in workload?

I have already touched on the perception challenges teaching faces and how this can impact on the numbers entering training. We simply don’t have enough new entrants into teaching. These challenges are really acute for some secondary subjects and in some schools.

Once a teacher joins the profession, we need to ensure there is support so they can build and develop during the first, early, critical years of teaching. Our report highlighted concerns that there is insufficient support and development opportunities. It is therefore welcome that the workforce plan has an action for the development and delivery of a structured early career pathway to support teachers both during their training but also in the first few years of their career.

I also welcome the action in the plan for more opportunities for secondary teachers to enhance their subject knowledge. This is particularly important where, in many schools, we have teachers teaching outside of their own subject specialism. We heard that this can have a direct impact on the quality of the teaching and learning offered, and can also affect the subject choices of learners. This can then become a vicious cycle, with not enough learners taking subjects such as physics, chemistry or modern foreign languages to GCSE, A-level or degree. This then reduces the number of potential future teachers, and the whole cycle starts again.

In conclusion, I welcome the Welsh Government’s response to our report, and the workforce plan. I hope that any future Welsh Government takes this issue seriously, and builds on the workforce plan to ensure that every child in Wales has access to high-quality teaching and learning. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'd like to thank the Chair, members of the committee, the clerks of the committee and also all of the witnesses for their hard work on a detailed and robust report, with a complicated and wide-ranging number of issues. I'd like to touch upon a few areas, if I may, that I find particularly important to teacher recruitment and also retention. Whilst I, alongside other committee members, thank the Cabinet Secretary for accepting all of the committee's recommendations, there are a few questions today that I'd like to have answered, please.

First, and most importantly, the committee found that there are significant difficulties in attracting students into initial teacher education courses. Whilst I recognise, Cabinet Secretary, that you're awaiting your own Government's evaluation on 2026 ITE, I am concerned that these problems, and indeed problems in recruitment for certain subjects, are going to be exacerbated by the closure of courses by certain Welsh universities. For example, in evidence from the Welsh Local Government Association to the committee, we heard that repeated shortages in technology and maths teachers in north Wales could be linked to fewer courses running at Bangor University. So, I'd like to know, Cabinet Secretary, how is your strategic work plan, aside from identifying priority subject areas, going to address the potential closure of valuable courses offered at ITE stage in the short term.

As a committee, we were particularly concerned about the severe shortage of specialist physics teachers in Wales. I find it particularly astonishing that the Institute of Physics gave evidence that Wales has fewer specialist physics teachers than there are secondary schools. I will pick up on further areas of concern from the Institute of Physics, Cabinet Secretary, but, in relation to ITE, what measures are your Government taking to raise the subject priority bursary to match England, and how are you exploring alternative ways of funding ITE in relation to physics courses? Will you also potentially introduce pre-ITE subject knowledge enhancement courses, so that non-physics graduates can train as specialists?

Furthermore, the committee found that one in five students studying PGCEs to become secondary school teachers dropped out in 2023-24, with most students leaving because of long hours, pressure and workload within the profession. So, how is your workforce plan, Cabinet Secretary, ensuring that more students stay within their PGCE course? I note that there are extensive overarching policies on workload within the workforce plan itself, which particularly address our concerns in recommendation 9, but how are you ensuring that this is reduced from day one to prevent good-quality secondary school teachers from dropping out at such an early stage?

Turning to recommendation 15 on the teacher workforce plan, I am pleased that you published your strategic workforce plan last week, and I echo the words of the Chair. I also note that supply teachers are also mentioned in your plan, and I am interested in point 4.14, on developing a new framework for supply agencies. Specifically, I understand that the Public Affairs and Public Administration Committee found that the Welsh Government charges a rebate fee to supply teacher agencies of 0.5 per cent, which, and I quote from the Welsh Government's response,

'generates approximately £500,000 per annum'.

End quote. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that the current supply teacher agency agreement that your Government has is fit for purpose and is actually value for money as well? What other forms of booking system for supply teachers have you looked at as well?

Turning back to specialist areas, I am glad that you have admitted to severe shortages within the workforce plan. However, according to the Education and Workforce Council register data, nearly one in five maths teachers and nearly one in four English teachers were trained in a different subject. This is actually worse within sciences, as over half of chemistry teachers, and a staggering 56 per cent of teachers employed to teach physics, had not trained in these subjects. I note that the Institute of Physics has set out a number of areas for reform, which reflect the urgency of the position that we are in today. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, I would like to know what steps you are taking to ensure that the policy recommendations for physics in the committee's report are not going to be lost, and that organisations that represent shortage subjects are actively involved and formally consulted on policy development on teacher recruitment, retention and training.

Finally, turning to recommendation 11, on behaviour management, I am again really genuinely pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this. I do feel, however, that there hasn't been a recognition of the urgency within the issue itself and that you have left much of the work outstanding as we reach the conclusion of this Senedd. For example, you mentioned that the forums on mobile phones and exclusions and detentions are still concluding their work. Cabinet Secretary, I would really love for you to go out on a limb today, in the last session that we have, and ban mobile phones in classrooms, work with the UK Government to ban social media for the under-16s, and crack down on the rising number of exclusions. These would go down very, very well with the Welsh Conservatives, I can assure you.

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, we understand that Cardiff Council is indeed leading on weapons being carried in schools. I would really like to know when are these new Wales-wide resources going to be rolled out in schools across Wales. And are you supporting automatic expulsions for carrying a weapon? Because I do fear, and I know I have said this before, that, if we leave it too long, we'll have further weapons threats, such as those in Llanishen High School, Eastern High School, Whitchurch High School, Bassaleg School, and, sadly, further incidents such as in Milford Haven comprehensive, as we saw this year. Thank you very much.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I would like to put on record, as we come towards the end of this sixth Senedd, my sincere thanks to the Chair and fellow members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee and the clerking team, and all of those who have given evidence. Their co-operation over the past few years has been very, very valuable. It's been a genuine privilege to be a member of the committee.

The report on the recruitment and retention of teachers has highlighted a number of factors that have contributed and continue to contribute to negative perceptions of the profession. These include unsustainable workloads, unnecessary bureaucracy, challenging pupil behaviour, and teachers having to deal with increasing cases of mental health issues and children with additional learning needs. And although we have a dedicated and conscientious workforce, these challenges place them under intolerable pressure.

Teachers have a vital role to play in shaping the future of our young people long after they have left the classroom, and, indeed, they can change their lives. It’s a role that can give great satisfaction, but, unfortunately, as many as 25 per cent of teachers leave the profession every year. Bearing in mind that 75 per cent of our teachers are women, a number of them report that being unable to strike the right balance between work and family life is one of the reasons that they leave the profession, with many noting that they work between 50 and 60 hours a week. So, I'd like to ask the Government what they intend to do to reduce this workload.

In terms of recruiting teachers, particularly to the secondary sector, Government targets have been missed year after year. The latest figures that were shared with the committee reveal that the Government is 56 per cent below the target for recruitment to subjects that have a lack of teachers, such as the sciences, STEM subjects, foreign languages and, of course, Welsh-medium education.

In terms of teacher training courses, universities in England offer very generous financial incentives compared to what is on offer in Wales. For example, bursaries for studying some science subjects are as much as £14,000 more. Little wonder, then, that many of our young people are being drawn to study courses in England, and what happens then, is, of course, that they find jobs there and settle there, and we lose this young talent. So, again, what does the Welsh Government intend to do to change that pattern? Plaid Cymru has been clear that, if we are serious about recruitment, we must close the gap and make teaching in Wales more attractive and competitive.

The report also recommends that we should consider more flexible working arrangements to lighten the workload: measures such as allocating time for continuing professional development away from school, more flexible working hours, more professional training in general, but in particular on how to support children with additional learning needs, and enhanced guidance on dealing with challenging behaviour in the classroom, and Plaid Cymru agrees with all of these measures.

The report also highlights the role played by A-levels in shaping the education workforce of the future. Research by Universities Wales shows that only 33 per cent of young people in Wales study A-levels, compared to 47 per cent in England. Now, that's a significant difference, and it has real implications in terms of the number of young people who are able to go on to teach. This issue is particularly pertinent when it comes to Welsh-medium education. The Welsh Government itself has acknowledged the challenges of recruiting Welsh-medium teachers, and the low number of teachers who study Welsh as a subject at A-level adds to these pressures. Research demonstrates that around 400 additional teachers are needed every year if we are to hit the 'Cymraeg 2050' target.

To conclude, therefore, teaching is one of the most important and most worthwhile professions. Teachers change young people’s lives every day, but the reality now is that teachers shoulder a workload that pushes them to the limit and that forces them to leave the profession, because they feel that they're not sufficiently appreciated and respected. So, to finish, unless we change the situation, our education system will never reach its full potential and we will let another generation of children down. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'd like to thank the Chair, fellow committee members, clerks and everyone who took part in this inquiry.

Teachers have asked if there could be more flexibility. It was once seen as a job that supported families and childcare, with school holidays off together, but all the added pressures of planning, assessments and all the extras that they now have to undertake can take up valuable time, including Sundays and evenings. Post COVID, they see jobs that offer more flexibility, working from home and shorter hours, so they're tempted to make that shift. They're often asked to become social workers as well, helping children with more complex needs.

We need to promote teaching jobs and value them, give them renewed respect. They are so important; they can inspire and change a child's life. And I welcome the Inspiring Teachers campaign that is being launched. Retraining, as well, and support are essential for teachers. I very often hear about how having a good headteacher who listens and can provide that flexibility makes all the difference.

There has been underfunding during austerity, and councils have had to make difficult decisions. We've tried to protect funding wherever we can, but funding does need to rise in line with need. I welcome the extra funding from the UK Labour Government for special educational needs, as they call them, and I hope the new Welsh Government that will be elected will ensure that it goes to additional learning needs. We have had petitions calling for the ring-fencing of education funding and ALN. I know that can't happen, it's the decision of local authorities, but we need to make sure that funding goes to them.

Teaching assistants are also incredibly valuable, and I welcome that Welsh Labour are looking to ensure that they will have all-year-round pay, should Welsh Labour get elected. I welcome the Welsh Government's education workforce plan. Thank you.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I'm grateful for the report of the committee, which acknowledges a number of changes that education in Wales has undergone over the last few years and the impact that has had on dedicated teaching staff, and school staff in general, as Buffy Williams highlighted. It's not just the teaching staff, it's the whole school staff. The staff are tasked with delivering these changes against a backdrop of funding and budgetary pressures, ageing and unsuitable school buildings, in many cases, and children with challenging behaviour who need support, support that is often not there.

The report lists a number of pressures, some of which, with understanding, investment and restructure, are avoidable. The status quo, from my reading of the report, is contributing to poor well-being and a major reason why teachers are leaving the profession. Unsurprisingly, the teachers' unions don't disagree with the report. They mention in their response a crisis of morale, retention issues, lack of targeted support and school leaders burning out. That is our experience as Members when we talk to people from the teaching profession.

The narrative presented by the report addresses significant issues for the teaching profession, where teaching staff who started off their careers with the best intentions are being broken and careers ended. My office recently asked a number of schools about their well-being provision for teaching staff and what provision is in their school budget to provide such a provision. The answers I had, Cabinet Secretary, were 'none', with staff stating, 'Well, we tend to support each other.'

There is no provision within a budget for a school leader to offer well-being provision for school staff. Local authorities do offer a telephone service, a counselling service, but I think what that means is that at a time of crisis, when the teacher may feel at breaking point, all they can do, maybe, is talk to a faceless voice. I'd be interested to know how that compares with provision offered in other areas of the public sector, because as Buffy Williams reminded us in her opening, teachers and school staff undertake some of society's most important roles, not just that of a teacher or educator, but quite often a social worker, a confidant, a nurse or crowd control, to name but a few. Cabinet Secretary, you could list far more than that. They need structured welfare and well-being provision. Failing to budget for this, to value and truly support staff is, in my view, a false economy in the long run. So, Cabinet Secretary, I would urge you to work with all of the teaching unions to ensure that the wellness of our teaching staff is prioritised. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm very grateful to the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their report. I'd like to thank the Chair and the committee members for their thorough analysis of the challenges we face in Wales and for engaging with a wide range of our key stakeholders. The findings present a clear picture: although our workforce remains deeply committed, pressures on the system are growing, and I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is accepting all 16 recommendations.

Before addressing some of the details in the report and some of the comments of Members, I just wanted to refer to our strategic education workforce plan for schools, which was published last week. The plan provides a comprehensive, system-wide programme of action to strengthen and support our school workforce. It sets out a shared vision for a confident, resilient and well-supported profession, and goes beyond the recommendations made by the committee and indeed covers all the areas that have been raised in contributions today.

Over the last year, we've worked closely with our practitioners, trade unions, local authorities and a wide range of partners to develop the plan to ensure it reflects their views and priorities. It also draws on international evidence and best practice, and I am confident that the plan aligns with what high-performing systems are doing to elevate and sustain their teaching professions. And in response to the Chair's comments, the plan was always intended to be high level, to bring together all the work that we need to do in this space. That work will obviously be taken forward now by the next Government, but I am confident that we have all the plans in place to do that.

Turning then to the committee's report, the three recommendations related to initial teacher education reflect our current direction. We currently have accredited part-time and salaried routes into teaching alongside traditional routes, and we will review all routes into teaching to ensure they are viable, high quality and accessible.

On initial teacher education incentives, the evidence received by the committee reflected our views and our research that there isn't a simple solution. A full evaluation of ITE policy is under way, including whether costs deter potential teachers, and the evidence is currently mixed on the value of teaching incentives. There is a commitment in here to look at that, but a lot of the international evidence suggests it's things like well-being and tackling workload that make the difference in attracting people into the profession. The evaluation will report in summer 2026, but we've already started work to review the current requirement that 50 per cent of a secondary trainee's degree must be relevant to their teaching subject.

The report highlighted the acute pressures in Welsh-medium recruitment, and I've described to the committee in detail our work with partners to strengthen and expand this, and there is no one single solution to this. We invest around £4 million annually to develop the language skills of practitioners, including for the more than 1,500 teachers who could teach through Welsh but currently do not. The Welsh Government will now work with local authorities and partners to review the Welsh in education workforce plan to develop further actions that support the aims of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025.

Improving the perception of teaching is of course crucial, and Buffy Williams spoke about how we capture those inspirational stories of how much our teachers and school leaders enjoy what they're doing, and I've heard so many school leaders say to me that it is the best job in the world. And that's not to underestimate the challenges, but to recognise how fantastic and rewarding these jobs are for people in our schools. We recognise the need to do more on that. That's why, last week, we announced some new teaching ambassadors, who are very enthusiastic teachers who are going to go out there and help tell that story for us.

We've also accepted the committee's recommendation to provide clarity that teachers trained in England face no barriers to working here, and our new campaigns will promote the importance of having a practitioner workforce that reflects the diverse communities they serve, including teachers from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds.

The committee rightly highlighted the value of opportunities for teachers and teaching assistants to develop their expertise, and we will be establishing clearer career pathways, as set out in the plan, including much stronger support in those first years in teaching, where we know we are most likely to lose our teachers if they are going to decide to go elsewhere. We'll also pursue recommendation 6 by promoting opportunities for practitioners to access sabbatical and secondment opportunities, to deepen subject knowledge, pursue research or contribute to national policy work.

Members have mentioned workload. That remains a really pressing concern, highlighted by the committee. Our strategic workload co-ordination group has already helped us streamline reporting requirements, embed workload assessments and agree national engagement principles, but I entirely recognise that leaders have been the main beneficiaries of that and that we’ve got more to do in terms of classroom teachers. The committee made recommendations on things like planning, preparation and assessment time, and several Members have raised issues around flexible working. Those issues are very challenging in teaching particularly, especially when we're in a situation where, in some schools, particularly in Welsh medium, it's a struggle to get, say, a Welsh-medium chemistry teacher to stand in front of a class, let alone look at that flexibility. But we are committed, as part of our plan, to doing that work.

Now, Natasha, you made some points about behaviour. I absolutely refute the notion that things have been left unfinished. I could stand here and talk for at least an hour about all the work that we are doing to tackle issues with behaviour in schools. [Interruption.] No, I know I can't. [Laughter.] And I think it would be the height of irresponsibility for me to just stand out here and go out on a limb, as you put it, and announce an immediate ban on mobile phones in schools. [Interruption.] No, no, no, they haven't actually. What they have done is said that—. That is not what they've done. And if you look at the guidance, there is no guidance that supports that at all. I am not prepared to stand here and say things. It's my role to support the profession in implementing policies, not to say things for soundbites. That is not how we work. We do things in Wales to support the profession, based on evidence.

I just, with your indulgence, wanted to respond to Rhys's points about well-being, which is incredibly important. We have a whole-school approach to mental health in Wales, and that is for our staff as well. We've got some excellent examples where school staff are really well supported. Neath Port Talbot is one, where their school counselling service also provides support and supervision for staff. We fund education support to help our staff, but I recognise we need to do more. I'd like to see those models of supervision and support in schools, and it's covered in our plan.

Just to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, I wanted to finish by placing on record my heartfelt thanks to all our staff working in schools—our school leaders, our teachers, our teaching assistants and everybody working in schools. It has been the privilege of my life to do this job, and their work in supporting our children and young people, their phenomenal commitment and determination has inspired me every single day. Diolch o galon.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Buffy Williams to reply to the debate.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

I feel quite emotional now. Thank you to everyone who has contributed today. As we can see from the range of comments, the challenges facing teacher recruitment and retention are wide-ranging and complex. There is no single solution that will solve them immediately. It will take sustained and focused action over a number of years.

In my own comments, I only focused on a small number of issues. I could have talked about particular challenges facing Welsh-medium schools, rural schools or faith schools. I could have talked about the particular challenges faced by school leaders. I could have talked about how we ensure the teaching workforce represents all the communities it serves. I could have talked about the impact that these issues have on learners or the wider education workforce, or on the delivery of key educational reforms. So, I am pleased that some of these issues have been touched on by colleagues.

I have heard a clear commitment across the Senedd today to retackle this issue. I hope that it is a priority for the next Senedd. The education sector is at a critical junction. Delivering on the ambitions and aims we all share for schools in Wales is reliant on having a well-supported, stable and valued workforce, making sure we have the right number of teachers in the right schools with the right skills.

Natasha mentioned the shortage of teachers in the sciences. We've heard that time and time again, especially in the Welsh-medium schools. That was a huge worry for the committee. Cefin talked about the work-life balance. This is an issue we were very concerned about: teachers working late into the night, over weekends. Again, work-life balance was a struggle, and teachers do that because they are dedicated and committed to the pupils that are in their classrooms and that they feel responsible for.

Carolyn touched on how important it is for children to have that important role model—I’m pleased that the Cabinet Secretary also touched on that—that all-important person that our young people need to inspire them and that they aspire to be. I think that we need to be doing more of that in our schools, and I think that is something that came through loud and clear in our evidence.

Rhys spoke about the well-being of our staff. This was a worry for the committee and is something that must be taken very seriously—from senior management teams to the local authority and the Welsh Government. I'm really pleased that the Cabinet Secretary responded to this directly with Rhys.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to thank all Members for their contributions today. Again, I thank all Members, stakeholders and members of the public who have contributed to our committee's work over the last five years. I'd also like to pay tribute to our amazing clerking team, who have been a huge support to me over the last year, and for the last five years. I believe I'm the only original member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Sometimes I think Members got quite frustrated because it was only me who had worked on particular reports, and then having to relay all that has been quite a challenge, Cefin, I think, hasn't it? But it's been an absolute privilege, and to work with the clerking team has been fantastic. Again, being involved with this committee and being Chair more recently has been one of the highlights of my time in the Senedd. I'd like to thank everybody again for their time and patience. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Well done, Buffy.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You're not objecting, are you? You are simply—[Laughter.]

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee Report, 'Cymraeg for all?'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, 'Cymraeg for all?' I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. At the outset, I would like to thank the committee team, some of whom are joining us in the gallery, for their work on this inquiry, but also every inquiry during this Senedd term. For this particular inquiry, I thank Osian Bowyer, but I'd also like to thank the clerking team, Richard and Haidee, Lowri, Catrin, Manon, and everyone who has been an excellent part of this team. It's a privilege to speak for the final time in this Senedd term to open the debate on 'Cymraeg for all?', which is our committee's inquiry looking at how we can increase the use of the Welsh language across communities with a lower density of Welsh speakers.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We began this work with a simple question: how can we ensure that the Welsh language truly belongs to everyone? We set out to understand people's language journey through the medium of Welsh, the access points that draw people in, and the barriers that continue to hold them back. We were grateful to everyone who gave of their time, because language policy is never something that's abstract—it's related to people and to a sense of belonging. I'd also like to note the recent report of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities on communities with medium and lower density of Welsh speakers. Their findings will inform the next phase of delivery, alongside our recommendations and, of course, the Government's response.

I'd like to warmly welcome the Welsh Government's constructive response to our report. They've accepted many of the recommendations outright, they've accepted others in principle, and have set out actions that are already under way.

Let's begin with festivals and legacy. The evidence was emphatic. Festivals play a distinctive and important role in normalising the Welsh language. They can catalyse behaviour change long after the last tent is taken down. But that momentum is fragile without intentional legacy planning. And that's why we recommended a clear strategic legacy framework, so that the momentum is not lost, but that it continues to grow roots in schools, workplaces and communities. I'm pleased that the Government has accepted this recommendation.

We also called for a dedicated fund to assist the mentrau iaith and local partners to lock in that legacy in the first year after the Eisteddfod visits a particular area. We also recommended the Government should ensure free or low-cost access to the Urdd and the National Eisteddfod for low-income households.

The inquiry looked at the digital future too. Witnesses agreed that Wales has been ahead of the curve in the development of Welsh language technology, but policy must be flexible and reactive. The committee pressed for stronger open data and open licences, and for removing unnecessary barriers that prevent data sharing in a responsible manner to unlock Welsh language technology. We recommended that we should move from annual funding models to multi-year funding models for Welsh language technology, to allow institutions, like Canolfan Bedwyr and others, to plan across financial years. I'm pleased to note that the Government has confirmed a shift to funding over periods of up to three years, from April onwards.

Strengthening grass-roots use of the Welsh language was another important thread of our work. We called for targeted support to help community organisations and sports clubs to create new Welsh language opportunities, and the Government accepted this in principle. I would encourage a continued focus on small grants that assist clubs and community groups to adopt a bilingual ethos, making the Welsh language visible, audible and normal, because Welsh sport is a powerful ally in all of that. Research shows that children and young people are more likely to use the Welsh language with coaches and contemporaries during sporting activities. It's about normalising the Welsh language in everyday life.

Workplaces are another frontier. We recommended focusing on increasing the use of Welsh at work, including in the private sector, and aligning with the CEFR framework introduced under the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025. The Government's response commits to targets for workplace and social use in the national strategy, alongside clearer guidance for workplace sectors and alignment between Cymraeg Gwaith provision and the new CEFR framework. Dirprwy Lywydd, these are some of our recommendations.

The phrase or the question 'Cymraeg for all?' poses a challenge, but it also extends an invitation. The challenge is to confront the stubborn barriers—geographical, financial, cultural and digital—that continue to limit and restrict Welsh language use. The invitation is to build, together, the networks of belonging that make the language feel like home. Our recommendations offer practical tools for that work. I commend this report to the Senedd, and I look forward to hearing the comments of my fellow Members.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate this afternoon. I want to begin by placing on record my sincere thanks to all the members of the culture committee for their work throughout this Senedd term, despite me only being on it for the last 12 months or so. It's been a pleasure to sit on the committee alongside everyone. I would also like to thank the committee clerks, whose expertise and dedication often go unseen but are absolutely fundamental to the quality of scrutiny in this place. I pay particular tribute to the Chair, Delyth Jewell, for her thoughtful and considered leadership in bringing forward this important piece of work.

'Cymraeg i bawb?' is, in my view, both a realistic and ambitious report. It does not shy away from the scale of the challenge before us as a nation, but neither does it lose sight of what is possible if the right choices are made. I'm pleased to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the committee's recommendations, particularly the central premise that if we are to achieve the ambition of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, we must look beyond the classroom. That is not to diminish the importance of education—far from it. Our schools and our teachers play a vital role in introducing young people to the language. But we must also be honest that the school setting for the learning of the language does not always foster a lifelong love of the language for all people. For some, it opens doors to rich cultural and linguistic heritage. For others, it can unfortunately have the opposite effect and discourage further engagement.

Language cannot simply be taught. It must be lived, it must be experienced—in the workplace, in our communities, in our cultural life, and in everyday interactions. We must also recognise at the outset that what we are trying to achieve is inherently difficult. The preservation and the promotion of any minority language is an uphill struggle for governments across the world. It requires sustained effort and long-term thinking, and it must seek to change culture.

In the modern era, that challenge is even more pronounced. As the report rightly identifies, the dominance of global languages, particularly online, creates significant barriers. The digital world is overwhelmingly English-speaking, and that inevitably shapes habits and preferences, particularly among younger people. But the benefits can also be brought through things like AI, which the report rightly recognises.

The report also focuses on festivals and cultural infrastructure. It is clear that events such as the National Eisteddfod and the Urdd are not ends within themselves, but catalysts to learning the language. Recommendations 1 and 2 make a simple but important point: if we do not plan properly for what happens after major festivals and fund that follow-up work, the benefits will quickly fade. A clear legacy plan, backed by targeted funding for mentrau iaith in areas with fewer Welsh speakers, would help make sure the impact lasts.

Recommendation 3 is about fairness, making sure that people can attend events for free or at a low cost, ensuring that the Welsh language truly belongs to everyone, regardless of income. For many people in communities with a low density of Welsh speakers, Welsh-language festivals and cultural events like the Eisteddfod can appear on the surface like very middle-class environments and not inclusive.

The report also recommends that we properly measure what works, as too often decisions are made without strong evidence. Better research, especially in areas with fewer Welsh speakers, will help improve future policy. More broadly, the report recognises that technology needs the right support to succeed, investment in skills, better promotion of Welsh language content, and rules that keep pace with new developments, as things have moved on greatly from just Welsh language broadcasting.

At a community level, recommendation 7 rightly focuses on grass-roots activity, supporting local groups and sports clubs, especially in areas where Welsh is less widely spoken, which is key to making the language part of everyday life. Taken together, these recommendations mark a shift in approach to actively increasing its use every day, which is vital to reaching the goal of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, a goal shared by most parties in this Chamber.

This report provides a clear and practical road map for the next Welsh Government to inform how best to achieve that goal, which will hopefully see much better progress than what we have seen on this front over the past decade.

Just as a footnote to my contribution, given that this is probably my last contribution to the sixth Senedd, I would just like to thank everyone and wish everybody all the best for the future, whatever that might bring. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to you. And I'm also grateful to you, Delyth, for your leadership over the five years that we've spent on the committee together. I've enjoyed your company and I've enjoyed your leadership too, and I think it's important that we put that on record, and also to note the work of the committee's staff and secretariat. We have been extremely fortunate with the staff that we've worked with over recent years. And I think that each and every one of us across the Chamber is very grateful to them for the work that they do.

And I'm also grateful to you, Delyth, for your words of introduction. You said, as part of your opening remarks, that the target of a million Welsh speakers is a challenge, but also an invitation. That's the first time that I've thought of it as an invitation. It was a challenge when we were discussing the policy initially and it was a challenge for us in Government and for Wales more generally. But we didn't consider it to be an invitation to, and I'm pleased that you have changed the narrative around the target and described it as an invitation. I think that's important for us. Because the challenge that we share—. And I do think that one thing that has been important over the almost 10 years since we set the target of a million Welsh speakers is the fact that the target has united people. It has united people. And I'm very grateful for the contributions of Gareth Davies in all of this.

As the committee has changed over the years, the balance hasn't changed, and neither has the agreement on linguistic issues. Now, that may change after the election, but at the moment, we do have a consensus across the Chamber on the future of the Welsh language. [Interruption.] Well, we do have consensus. And I do think it's important, because we want to change not just the numbers of people speaking Welsh, but that means that we would change Wales. We will change the kind of country that we are. We will change the nation that we develop into. This will be crucially important for us. And that means that we do have to challenge not just the Government, but ourselves too.

I saw that it's been published how much Welsh each of us has spoken over the past five years, and congratulations to Siân Gwenllian, who's the champion of the Welsh language in this Chamber. She's spoken more Welsh than any of us. And it's a challenge for me to use my Welsh more in this Chamber. And as we challenge ourselves, I do think that we also have to challenge the Government and change the Government's thinking around the Welsh language and ensure that it does act in favour of the language. And I think we have seen the Government responding to that challenge.

And as I thanked you, Delyth, I also want to thank you too, Mark. As Cabinet Secretary, you have led the process in terms of the most far-reaching legislation in relation to the Welsh language that we've ever seen. I think that the Bill that you introduced, which is now an Act, will have more impact on the future of the Welsh language than almost anything that I have seen during my lifetime. And I think that that's crucially important. Because by putting in place a framework for future education, we establish a framework that will create new Welsh speakers. And I think that's crucially important.

This legislation is also important because we are using Welsh law to change culture, and we are changing the culture in English-medium schools too, so that the Welsh language is introduced to people. I joined Lynne Neagle a month ago in Tredegar, and one of the things that I've enjoyed most since becoming a Member here is to go to Tredegar and to open a new Welsh-medium school there. Now, my grandmother went to Tredegar to live a century ago now, and, of course, she didn't speak any English at that point because she had been born in Penparcau in Aberystwyth. And in the schools in Tredegar at the time, English was the only language that was used. And now the tide has turned and children are now being encouraged to use the Welsh language, to understand the Welsh language and to learn the Welsh language.

So, we do have new priorities. We have a priority to ensure the future of communities where the Welsh language is spoken, and I'd like to thank Simon Brooks for the work that he's done in that area. We have the priority in education, and we also have a new framework within education, and that means that we do have to change the way we use the Welsh language. Usage is the most important thing—it's use of the Welsh language—changing from English to Welsh at times, using the Welsh language as it is and where it is, and using the Welsh language at every possible opportunity. And if we do that, we as a Senedd will have done more to change the future of our nation than anything that we have done while we've been sitting in this place.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

One of the things that struck me during the past few weeks is how many reports have been published in terms of the Welsh language, and even this week, as previously mentioned, we've seen the second part of the report of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities being published. We've seen the annual report, the five-year report of the commissioner. There are a number of reports that have been published, but there's a consistent message in those reports that's also conveyed in the work of this committee and in this report too. I think that one of the things that we should all be very pleased to see, particularly us as a committee after our scrutiny work, is that consistency in terms of the agreement and consensus about what the next Government needs to do to take the Welsh language forward.

Alun Davies referred to the use of the Welsh language, and that comes through clearly in our report today, and also in every report: how are we going to tackle that challenge? The Welsh Language Commissioner also emphasised, as did the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities, the importance of education, but also in terms of creating Welsh-speaking workplaces. So, we know what needs to happen, and we have a number of recommendations and solutions. There are 31 recommendations in the second part of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. So, by taking those alongside the first set, there are a great many things that the next Government will need to tackle.

But I think that one of the things that we have to ensure is that all of us are agreed that a language isn't saved by accident or the continuity of a language is ensured. I think it speaks volumes that the two Reform Members aren't in the Chamber for this debate, and what we've heard from Reform about the language: getting rid of the Welsh Language Commissioner, getting rid of targets. What every one of these reports shows us is the importance of legislation, the importance of targets and the importance of investment, otherwise—. If you consider that we have a cross-party agreement, cross-party consensus, and we have an ambitious strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050'—even with all of those things, we are still agreed that there is more to do, because we see that Welsh isn't in a unique position here; we all have to remember that every minority language worldwide is under threat. And in a number of nations, they are looking to Wales and they admire what we're doing. They want to learn from us.

We could be very self-satisfied here, and we could say, 'We have this strategy, we have everything in place. There are some excellent things happening, so "Come to the National Eisteddfod for a week and you'll see how wonderful Welsh culture is", or, "Come to the Urdd Eisteddfod and Urdd sporting events".' But there's one thing that I hope all of us can agree on: we're not willing to settle. There is more to do, and that's the message I hope that we can today pass on to the seventh Senedd, namely that we have to have these targets, we have to have legislation and we have to have investment. Because without those things, we won't see not just these targets being reached, but that there is an opportunity for everyone to become confident Welsh speakers.

We often say that the Welsh language belongs to everyone. Perhaps it does belong to everyone, but what Nigel Farage's comments last week showed is that the Welsh people care about the Welsh language, whether they speak it or not, and they won't allow anyone to insult the language. Perhaps too many people have lost out on the opportunity to acquire the Welsh language for various reasons over the past few decades. Perhaps there are children being born today where the Welsh language isn't being given to them in an accessible manner, and that there is still a need to battle for services, even with the Welsh Language Commissioner, even with legislation. But what we can be sure of is that the Welsh language will indeed belong to everyone if the Government supports that.

So, I very much hope that we reflect on the work of this committee, that all of us can agree that there is more to do—a great deal more to do—and that we now need to take action. It's the end of just slogans and being content with what has been done. It's time for more action. So, what I would ask to the Cabinet Secretary, in reflecting, perhaps—. Clearly, we haven't had an opportunity to discuss many of these important reports. What do you see as the next necessary steps that need to be taken? We are losing ground in terms of young people, certainly. There is a risk on YouTube, on TikTok—whatever platform they might want to use—that we are losing ground, so there is a need for urgent action.

I would like to take the opportunity, just to conclude—I apologise, Dirprwy Lywydd—to thank the Chair of the committee for her leadership. I thank the clerks and the research team, but also thanks to everyone who works tirelessly across Wales to keep the Welsh language as a language for everyone, and who sometimes work miracles on very small budgets. Thank you.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

In thinking about to what extent cultural events such as eisteddfodau and Welsh language festivals, if we think about the impact that they have on the Welsh language, particularly in those areas where there are fewer speakers, I went back to thinking about a very good recent example, namely the National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd. What better way to begin than by looking at the ode of welcome to that Eisteddfod by Aneirin Karadog? This is the final stanza of that ode of welcome:

'Our valleys venture / to turn talent into renaissance. / All right, byt! Now, get to it / And take this biwt of a language far and wide.'

That's exactly what most of us are trying to do here. That's what our aspiration is. That's what we want to see in Wales. As Aneurin Karadog said:

'Our language re-energised, / Our language in every home.'

But how will we achieve such a renaissance—a renaissance in those medium or low-density areas? How can we strengthen the language in areas such as Pontypridd, the birthplace of our national anthem, where 'O bydded i'r heniaith barhau' was written?

I'm very grateful for the expert work of Simon Brooks. I wish him well, and I hope, in the next Senedd, there will be an opportunity to look in greater detail at his important reports. I believe that this place is an example of good practice too. It's been wonderful this term to see so many Members contributing in Welsh, contributing for the first time in Welsh, and seeing their confidence growing as a result. The same is also true of the Commission staff and our own support staff. The offer that this place makes for people to learn Welsh and to practice their Welsh is good practice that I think could be shared in other places too.

As Dr Ruth Kircher said, making the language fun is important. Alun Davies has mentioned this time and time again, that that's been an important part of his language journey, namely that the Welsh language was fun and sociable for him. In my office, there is much fun to be had in comparing the Welsh of Conwy with the Welsh of Cardiff. But at heart, having considered the challenge together, there are ways for us, be that 'hefo' or 'gyda' ein gilydd, to give the gift of confidence to everyone in the language.

Of course, Dr Robert Talbot is right that one cannot conjure fun from nothing. It must happen spontaneously, but we can help it along. Cultural events and festivals where people are immersed in the language are crucial, but we also need to create more bilingual entities, particularly in those areas with fewer Welsh speakers. We can support the organisers of events and festivals to adopt that bilingual ethos.

We must learn from evidence from Amgueddfa Cymru, the mentrau iaith and the Welsh Language Commissioner that free or low-cost access to events increases participation levels, helps to overcome socio-economic barriers and reinforces the principle that the Welsh language does truly belong to everyone, rather than that just being a slogan.

For the Welsh language to prosper, it has to be relevant to modern life. Heledd Fychan talked about the latest technology. This is a problem for the Welsh language. It's a problem that we've talked about before, Cabinet Secretary. It's difficult to find or access Welsh language apps, and when we think about this aspect of fun, only 9 per cent of Welsh language apps are games. My children play games on their tablets through the medium of English. As the campaigner and technology expert Carl Morris said, there isn't enough fun to be had in Welsh-medium technology. We know that children play on their Xboxes, their Playstations and Nintendos, but they do so through the medium of English, unfortunately. And after battling to secure cheque books in Welsh, chip and pin and banking apps are now in English only.

I agree 100 per cent with the committee's view that we should prioritise local activities—sports, music, leisure activities—that reflect young people's interests. My father and his team succeeded in setting an excellent example here in Cardiff by establishing Clwb Ifor Bach, a venue where many of us have relaxed, sung, danced or socialised through the medium of Welsh. I think that the leader of Plaid Cymru was a bouncer in Clwb Ifor Bach back in the day, a club where many of us have had a lot of fun, where many people have met their partners and then have gone on to raise their children through the medium of Welsh. That's what the original Ifor Bach did in the twelfth century, that's what my father and his friends did in the last century, and this is what Aneirin Karadog encourages us to do now:

'As a nation's fanfare takes flight, / To celebrate and declare above the land, / The sword, and then the peace, / Our language re-energised.'

Yes, re-energised throughout the whole of Wales. Thank you.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you to the committee and the staff for this important report. As the Senedd Member for Newport East for a number of years, it's good to see the Welsh language growing and having grown over these years in Newport. I welcome the report's focus on the Welsh language throughout Wales, particularly in areas like Newport, where the language isn't particularly strong. There is a great deal of work happening in the city through the local authority and the menter iaith, for example, and it will be great to welcome the Urdd to Newport in 2027. I hope that the next Welsh Government will continue to develop the Welsh language in Newport and throughout Wales. Thank you very much.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to start, of course, by thanking the committee for its work on the report ‘Cymraeg for all?’ The evidence that you have gathered, and the analysis that you have provided, are valuable to us for the future.

The committee's report, Dirprwy Lywydd, as we've already heard, does add to a whole host of reports published this month that show the way forward: the five-year report of the Welsh Language Commissioner, and the final report of the second phase of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. Now, taken together, all three point to common conclusions, and, as Heledd Fychan asked, this is where I think that we can see the next steps emerging from the shared themes of these reports.

The shared conclusions include that the greatest challenge to the Welsh language is to ensure that we can use the language on a day-to-day basis in all parts of Wales by creating the appropriate conditions and spaces in our daily lives, in work, with our families and in our leisure time.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the first recommendation in the committee's report is to agree a framework to plan for legacies for national Welsh festivals, as well as key regional festivals, so that they are made into something more permanent in the years after those events. I'm pleased to have confirmed last week that we have published a strategic framework that strengthens and co-ordinates the work of ensuring an ongoing legacy for the National Eisteddfod, bringing a variety of partners together, and I would like to thank the committee for leading on that idea. That framework reflects the fact that the work starts way before the festival and continues for a long time after the festival, leaving a real legacy for our language in areas such as education, the community, the economy and digital innovation. The framework puts in place clear structures at a local and national level and ensures that we do share good practice from year to year. I see this as something that goes hand in hand with the long-term strategic planning that is described by the committee.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The committee has also emphasised the importance of ensuring that we all have access to the Welsh language, particularly in medium and low-density areas. I have mentioned that, this Monday, we received the final report of the second phase of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities, which addresses this very issue, and, as other Members have already said, I am extremely grateful to the members of the commission, to Professor Elin Gruffydd Jones and Dr Simon Brooks, for their work over the period of this whole Senedd term.

The emphasis of the commission on the Welsh language as something that belongs to us all, in all parts of Wales and in all communities, is a strong and important message. It is a message that I fully support and endorse. Along with its focus on addressing the Welsh language in digital contexts, the commission's emphasis on creating local spaces where we can use the language naturally echoes many of the committee's recommendations—recommendations that the Government has been able to accept. These include recommendation 3, on access to major festivals, recommendation 7, in relation to community initiatives, and recommendations 5 and 6, which relate to new technologies and the Welsh language. So, the committee's emphasis on the importance of creating practical opportunities that are relevant and inclusive in terms of using the Welsh language in everyday spaces obviously accords with the commission's focus on creating spaces that make it easier for people to use their Welsh language skills.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the committee has recognised that Wales is in a strong position in terms of digital and technological spaces, and that hasn't happened by accident, but because of the preparatory work done by Government over a number of years. We continue to work with partners across Wales and beyond on technology as a means of making it easier for people to use their Welsh language skills, and on using technology to ensure access to the language and on strengthening how the Welsh language works within artificial intelligence. This includes working responsibly with open data, supporting innovation and ensuring that organisations and developers can plan for the long term.

Dirprwy Lywydd, one final theme that brings together the three reports that I've mentioned this afternoon is the importance of the workforce as a focus for the Welsh language. Confidence comes through usage, and increasing the use of the Welsh language in the workplace provides an important opportunity to ensure that we deliver on the committee report's title, 'Cymraeg for all?'

Now, to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to repeat my thanks to the committee for this report and to the commissioner for her report. I would also like to thank the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities for preparing a detailed and significant report. I look forward to reading it in detail, and, as Rhys ab Owen mentioned, there will be opportunities for the next Senedd to look in detail at the more than 100 possibilities outlined in these reports.

Now, all of these reports pose a constructive challenge for the next Welsh Government to continue with the work of regenerating our language and ensuring that we can all use, share and take pride in the Welsh language. Succinctly, this confirms that the Welsh language does belong to us all, and, as Alun Davies said, so does the responsibility placed upon us all for its future. Thank you very much.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. And thank you very much to every Member who has contributed to this debate. To begin with, thank you to Gareth for your comments. Gareth has left us, but I thank him for his comments and the fact that he thanked the committee team.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

This report, as Gareth set out, does indeed set out what is possible. Reaching that target of a million speakers will require thought, activity and creativity, and, as Gareth said, language cannot simply be taught; it must be lived.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Well, those are very true words. This has been an area where there has been so much common ground between Members. This is something that Alun also mentioned, but that ground is becoming increasingly unstable beneath our feet; we need to ensure that this isn't lost. And thank you, Alun; I've enjoyed your company too. Thank you for your kindness, and thanks also for putting on the record your thanks to the staff, the excellent committee staff that we've worked with.

Yes, the target is a challenge and an invitation. There is consensus at the moment, but there is a division there. As one of our poets said, 'a rupture in a windowless forest'; there is a division that we must be aware of. And Alun mentioned that frameworks are only useful if they lead to changes in real life. Use of the Welsh language—that's what's important; use your Welsh as it is, take pride in your imperfect perfect Welsh, please. We must remember our history, from where we came, and take pride and revel in the fact that we have this opportunity now. Thanks also to Alun and Rhys for thanking Simon Brooks; we all send him our very best wishes.

Heledd mentioned the wider context and the consistency in the recommendations that were made. I very much like the fact that Heledd said that a language isn't saved by accident. And yes, the elephant that has been in the room is the fact that there are voices in our politics that undermine the targets, undermine the need for investment. The Welsh language is political. Our history has demonstrated that. This has been demonstrated time and time again. We as politicians need to ensure its future. And yes, Heledd, indeed, we need to see an end to slogans alone and being satisfied with the status quo. Thank you for saying that.

And thank you to Rhys for quoting the ode from Aneirin Karadog, 'Ein hiaith ym mhob tŷ'. It's excellent to have cynghanedd on the final day of our Senedd. Thank you for that ode, for that cynghanedd. And it has lifted our spirits to hear more and more Members contributing through the medium of Welsh in the Senedd. It demonstrates again that the language has to be a living language, in all of its perfect imperfection. I like very much that image of the Welsh language as a gift. Yes, it's a treasure, but it's an everyday treasure, to be marvelled at in its use. And I thank you, Rhys, and I thank your father too for everything that he did.

It's wonderful to hear you speaking Welsh, John. There is a great deal to celebrate in places like Newport, and the Eisteddfod will be an excellent opportunity. And that's another invitation, all of us have to go to Newport to hear more of the Welsh language. But it's been fantastic to hear you using the language so perfectly. Thank you, John.

And thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your contribution. I don't just mean your contribution this afternoon in the Chamber, but your wider contribution too. Thank you, Mark.

And, yes, there are common conclusions across a number of reports, the challenge and the invitation, again, are to ensure that there are spaces and opportunities to use the Welsh language. Access is master here, whether that is leisure centres or websites and apps. And, yes, I liked how the Cabinet Secretary said this: 'Confidence comes through usage'. And, yes indeed, a number of Members in the Chamber today are testament to that. We have to take pride in our language, as the Cabinet Secretary said.

Dirprwy Lywydd, at the end, I'd like to emphasise, once again, those three things that we need. The first, to ensure legacy with purpose. There is consensus about the need for that, for festivals to be springboards rather than end points. Secondly, technology that serves people. Finally, Welsh should be an everyday language in the places where people live and work. Across the three points, there is a common thread, namely confidence, confidence born of welcome, of affordability, of relevance and the knowledge that Welsh isn't a test, but, again, an invitation. The Welsh language belongs to every one of us. Let us create a Wales and a society that's a celebration of that. Let hope be the master. Thank you very much.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And as that was the final debate in the sixth Senedd on committee reports, I would like to put on record the Senedd's thanks to all the staff involved with the work of the committees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Their commitment, enthusiasm and professionalism are exceptional, which provides Members with the support needed to undertake their work. So, thank you once again to all staff on all committee work. [Applause.]

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The Welsh Government

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the Welsh Government. I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and here we go, the last debate in the sixth Senedd.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Today, we debate a simple question. After 27 years of a Welsh Labour Government, supported time and time again by Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats, are the people of Wales better off? Because if Government is to be judged by outcomes, not intentions, then actually the answer is clear, the Government has failed. That is why we propose this motion, that only the Welsh Conservatives have a credible plan to get Wales working again.

Let us start with what is totally clear. Despite numerous changes of leadership and nearly three decades in power, Labour has run out of excuses. They've had the time, they've had the funding, and they've certainly had the opportunity. What they've not delivered is results. Instead, what have we seen? Projects promised, expensive studies undertaken and then abandoned, such as the M4 relief road. A health service under relentless pressure, staffed by hard-working front-line staff, but failed by a political leadership that makes many promises, but is unable to achieve much-needed change. Businesses, farmers, pubs, post offices struggling to survive under rising costs, and an economy that continues to lag behind every other nation and region of the United Kingdom. After 27 years, Wales should not be trailing, it should be thriving.

Take the economy. Wales today has the lowest employment rate in Great Britain. Economic inactivity is the highest in Great Britain, and wages are the lowest—on average, £4,100 less than the UK average. That's not just a statistic, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's a reality felt in every community: lower living standards, fewer opportunities and diminished prospects for the next generation. Lower wages mean less money being spent and businesses struggling to make ends meet, and why? Because Labour's high-tax, anti-growth agenda has stifled enterprise, punished ambition and made it harder for businesses to create jobs and prosperity. This message was heard loud and clear when Paul Davies and I held a joint business rates surgery with close to 150 businesses, struggling under the weight of increasing business rates here in Wales.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Let's now turn to education. Wales has the worst Programme for International Student Assessment rating in the United Kingdom. I'll repeat that: the worst. Despite receiving more funding per head than England, Labour is spending less per pupil and delivering worse outcomes. Despite the hard work of teaching staff, too many young people are leaving school without the basic skills that they need to succeed. Failed teaching techniques such as phonics were persisted with for too long before being quietly dropped after being exposed. Attendance among the most vulnerable pupils is falling and the Government has no answers to address this. Classroom disruption is rising with record assaults on teachers and soaring exclusions.

Education is the foundation of opportunity, but under Labour, with the support of Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems, that foundation is cracking. And with power slipping from their grasp, a hail Mary pass in Pembrokeshire, a completely unfunded pledge to rebuild Milford Haven school, a pledge plucked out of thin air and which the community can see right through, as nothing more than an empty electoral promise that this Government will not be around to deliver.

And then the NHS: the figures are stark. There are over 700,000 patient pathways, equivalent to nearly one in four people in Wales. More than 5,000 people are waiting over two years for treatment, compared to just 200 in England. And I hate comparing Wales to England as a Welshman, and a proud Welshman, but the statistics are stark that this Government has let Wales down. Nearly 10,000 patients waited over 12 hours in emergency departments in a single month and cancer treatment targets are being missed time and time again. Targets set, missed. Tragically, nearly 40,000 people have died while waiting since the last Senedd election.

And again, in their desperation, this Labour Government is marching the communities of west Wales back up the hill of a brand new hospital. And guess what? This is yet again an unfunded commitment, not based in reality, but on trying to help a First Minister retain her seat. The people of Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire can see through these desperate attempts. This is not just a system under pressure; it is a system that does not work. It is a system failing patients and it is costing lives, and Labour leave a legacy of every single one of Wales's health boards in some level of intervention.

In rural Wales, the picture, Dirprwy Lywydd, is just as bleak. Farmers being squeezed by poorly designed schemes, broken promises and damaging policies like the family farm tax from their Labour family in London. The sustainable farming scheme rushed through, leaving farmers with little time to adapt. Indeed, announcements are still being made as to what the final scheme looks like. Support payments have been slashed. Regulations like nitrate vulnerable zones are being imposed on a one-size-fits-all approach that ignores the reality of agriculture and rural Wales.

I'm not even touched on the harm and anguish caused by bovine TB and the Welsh Government's failure to eradicate this devastating disease that causes immense harm to farmers, their livestock and their livelihoods. Farmers have taken to protest to demonstrate the strength of their feeling, turning up outside this very Senedd in record numbers, yet the Welsh Government refuse to budge. This is not partnership with farmers; it is a policy being done to them, not with them. It reflects the we-know-best attitude that has become a trademark of this Labour Government.

Plaid's fingerprints are all over these failures too, having backed Labour budget after Labour budget, keeping this Labour Government in power and allowing it to continue to damage Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm proud to have stood here for five years as a Welsh Conservative, the party that I was elected to represent, and I am proud of my contributions in defending rural Wales, standing up for local health services and advocating for our important energy, tourism and hospitality sectors, and all the job and wealth creators across Wales. And I'm proud to go into this election as a Welsh Conservative, a party with a plan, with experienced, dedicated politicians, a party with a pro-growth and pro-enterprise approach to the economy, a party with a plan to cut energy costs and support businesses, with a commitment to improve the NHS and reduce waiting times, with a focus on raising standards in education, and a party that will always show steadfast support for farmers and rural communities.

This election is a choice: a choice between continuing down the same road that has left Wales lagging behind, thanks to the policies of Labour, Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems; the chaos of Reform, filled with self-serving politicians, led by a snake-oil salesman who attacks Wales, attacks the Welsh language and lives in the pocket of Donald Trump; or the choice to get Wales working with the Welsh Conservatives. Dirprwy Lywydd, one final time, I urge Members to support the Welsh Conservatives' motion this evening. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. I call on the First Minister to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. It is—I will give the Conservatives this—a bold motion. The number of people considering that the Conservatives are the answer to the problems Wales has, they're few and far between. The notion that a party that broke everything it touched in 14 years of Government at Westminster can now somehow magically fix Wales is so preposterous that very, very few can take it seriously.

We all know that during this Senedd term the current Conservative group leader has been a passionate and tenacious species champion for the red squirrel. It is estimated that only around 1,500 red squirrels remain in the wild in Wales. But if yesterday's poll is to be believed, that's 1,499 more red squirrels than there will be Conservative Senedd Members after the election. And that one Member will be the current Member for Clwyd West. Perhaps in the next Senedd, someone should ask the red squirrels to champion the endangered species of the Conservatives. But on a positive note at least, the poll does suggest that the squirrels perhaps will get to keep their champion in Darren Millar.

Parties that have consigned themselves to political oblivion and who have seen more defections from their ranks than they have credible policies will never be the answer to the challenges that the next Government will undoubtedly face.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Llywydd, those challenges, of course, are very numerous and we will need a Government that is very clear in its objectives and is uncompromising in its ambition in order to ensure progress across that range of areas within the competence of the Welsh Government. The people of Wales's views are hardening, I think, in terms of the legacy of 27 years of Labour Governments: a health service that is experiencing unacceptably challenging conditions for patients and staff; education standards that compare unfavourably with almost every European nation, certainly the corresponding nations; an economy that is stubbornly unmoving.