Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 28 January 2026

250 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

1. How does the Welsh Government assess the performance and governance of local authority cabinets? OQ63714

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Local authorities in Wales are democratically accountable to their electorate for their performance. The approach to performance and governance of principal councils is described by the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021. The Welsh Government works with partners to use this information to provide relevant sector-led support.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Audit Wales's annual audit summary for Powys County Council, published last year, reports that the council hasn't yet adopted a long-term approach to securing its financial sustainability, but it is developing one. I thought that was a bit alarming; I would have thought that all local authorities should be planning long-term for their financial positions. In your assessment, Cabinet Secretary, has the council now made sufficient progress developing their long-term plan, and to what extent do you accept that the current funding formula makes that task harder for rural authorities like Powys?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Russell. Local authorities are democratically accountable bodies, responsible for managing their own resources. Audit Wales has identified important governance weaknesses that Powys must address urgently to support the delivery of its Sustainable Powys programme. This does not mean that Powys are not delivering on their statutory duties overall, however. I do welcome the early steps taken by Powys to address these shortcomings, but further sustained action is required to deliver meaningful and measurable improvement. Obviously, the Welsh Government will continue to monitor the progress very closely and work constructively with the Welsh Local Government Association and Powys council.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Many residents in my constituency have concerns about the performance and governance of Denbighshire County Council, as a stark example of why robust assessment and accountability by the Welsh Government matters. In 2024, the council's controversial roll-out of its new waste system generated over 15,000 complaints from residents, highlighting not just service failure but a profound breakdown in public trust and communication with the community. Too many decisions are also made behind closed doors. The Auditor General for Wales has identified shortcomings in how the council approached the proposed sale of Denbighshire Leisure Ltd, including insufficient documentation of public consultation and communication plans, prompting concerns about governance and transparency. This month, the council also had to open a fraud investigation. So, these issues raise fundamental questions about whether Denbighshire's leadership is delivering effective services, using resources properly and operating transparently, and, with continued scandal, public trust is being damaged all the time. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline what additional steps the Welsh Government will take in cases like Denbighshire, where failings are identified in delivery and transparency, and whether enforceable improvements are provided, rather than just recommendations?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Gareth. The Welsh Government's role is to put in place a statutory framework within which councils operate. It's the role of Audit Wales and regulators to act where there is non-compliance. As I said, the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 put in place a sector-led approach to performance improvement in councils, and its purpose is to support a culture where councils continuously review how they do better. Welsh Ministers can provide support and assistance to councils where there are serious and fundamental issues, and where they're identified by the council, Audit Wales and other regulators. But, the Welsh Government does provide over £2 million each year to the WLGA specifically to support local government to deliver efficient, effective services to their residents. We're working very closely with councils and corporate joint committees to support that regional collaboration, which is also important, to see how those best practices are put in place.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

2. How is the Welsh Government regenerating town centres in South Wales East? OQ63742

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Peredur. Since January 2020, the Transforming Towns programme has provided over £130 million to support the regeneration of town centres in South Wales East. Town centres are the backbone of our communities, and the Welsh Government is committed to supporting them.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Just before Christmas, I visited Tidal's Store in Blackwood to coincide with Family Business Week. This well-established family furniture firm has remained a permanent fixture in the town centre, whilst many changes have occurred around them, including the loss of other family businesses. One way in which home-grown firms could be boosted is through a more ambitious public procurement policy. As outlined in my colleague Luke Fletcher's economy paper, this would involve more stringent criteria about what constitutes a local firm—for example, is it genuinely home-grown, or it is a multinational business with a Welsh branch? We should also look at improving the public procurement rate, which is woefully low in Wales compared to other countries of our size. I have previously called for targets, but this Government rejected that in the Social Partnership and Procurement (Wales) Bill. Is this something that you would be prepared to consider pushing with our local authorities in the last few months of this Government, or is it being saved for the Labour manifesto?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Peredur, and I'm really glad that you were able to have a visit to Blackwood and the company that you mentioned, and I wish them every success. Through our Transforming Towns programme, we have recently supported a placemaking plan in Blackwood, which I think will be really helpful. It's been adopted by the local authority as well, and, obviously, with our placemaking plans, that's done with communities, which I think is really important—that they're planned and taken forward in that way, and being co-produced as well.

As I said, in terms of our Transforming Towns funding, we have invested that £130 million in South Wales East since 2020. And we've done a number of projects there, such as Ffos Caerphilly market, the former town hall in Tredegar, and the former House of Fraser store in Cwmbran. So, we are looking at ways of how we can encourage different businesses into our communities, and looking at how we can support a more vibrant town centre, which we all want to see. We don't want to see identikit town centres. We want them to have their own vibrancy and their own streak—their own independent streak. And I think, on ways that we can do that, I'm always keen to hear new ideas and to listen to what residents feel is most appropriate for their town centres as well.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, every year, the Welsh Government announce new funds for regeneration. It might be £40 million one year and perhaps £31 million in another year, and more besides. Now, the headlines are big, but the delivery in South Wales East, especially in my constituency, seems quite small. I regularly talk to residents and traders across the county, and they will all say the same thing: 'We've heard of the announcement, but we're still waiting to see the change'. Across Abergavenny, Monmouth, Chepstow and Cwmbran we do still see empty units. We see heritage buildings in disrepair and slow progress on projects that have been in the pipeline for some time. Cabinet Secretary, why do you think that the Welsh Government's national regeneration budgets are not really resulting in any actual change for our constituents that we would hope to see? Can we be assured that all the moneys within those headline figures, certainly this year, will reach our town centres in this year?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Peter. Actually, I had a regional round-table on regeneration, which included representatives from Monmouthshire County Council, and it was really helpful to hear some of their plans as well, and how they found, directly working with the Welsh Government, some of the investment and pots of funding that we do have. And I think that was really helpful. They were quite positive about the Transforming Towns funding and how they were looking to use that. For example, in Monmouthshire, I know that £2.8 million of funding has been awarded under the Transforming Towns programme since 2022. It's helped projects such as regenerating Plas Gunter mansion and gardens in Abergavenny. There's been funding for the Rainbow Cafe in Chepstow, Holman House in Caldicot, Monnow Street, Monmouth, and Bridge Street in Usk. So, there are ways that the funds are actually impacting different communities within Monmouthshire. We know Monmouthshire doesn't have one centre; there are lots of different towns, and that's really important to see how that funding can be spread. So, I'm really pleased to see a good spread of pipeline projects coming through in Monmouthshire, and I'm always keen to hear directly from those who are being impacted by it.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, you will be very familiar with Newport city centre and the way that the Welsh Government has worked with the city council, with Newport business improvement district, with our local businesses and many others to take forward diversification within the city centre, where we've seen residential property created, more leisure aspects, public services and events, as well as, of course, retail centred there. Recently, we know that the Kingsway Centre in Newport was fully let and we have very many independent businesses. I think we're all familiar with the ongoing challenges to retail from online and other rivals, but we do see strong signs of progress, I believe, in Newport city centre, despite those challenges. And I wonder if you could just assure me that the Welsh Government will continue working with Newport City Council, Newport BID and our independent traders to make sure that we make further progress.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, John, and thank you for that question. Absolutely, the Welsh Government is working very closely with Newport City Council and, I think, all other local authorities in Wales for their town and city centre regeneration plans. As you said, Newport has seen a rise in footfall—it's sustained growth through 2025, and I think that's really, really encouraging during some really challenging conditions. I think I'd just like to pay tribute to Newport City Council for all they're doing, in addition to the work that the BID is doing in this area. There has been a number of projects in Newport, which has had some Transforming Towns money and regeneration, and I'm really glad to see that Newport City Council have published their placemaking plan, which sets out the vision, going forward, for what it says will be a new era for Newport.

We've seen some really good examples. The Kingsway Centre, as an example, for many years, you will know, has been quite empty, and I think the fact that now there's a new owner, that is really becoming quite a vibrant place for people of all ages, which is really positive and is having a real impact on the city centre. So, we know that progress has been made, but I know that the foot won't be taken off the gas by Newport City Council.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Last week in Westminster, we heard a long-awaited announcement about the Ed Miliband Warm Homes plan, worth £15 billion. Since it was first mentioned in June, it hasn't been clear how much consequential funding will be available to Wales and how it will be invested here. So, my question is a simple one: has the consequential funding come to Wales? Will it come to Wales? And if it does, how does the Government intend to allocate that funding or has it already been allocated? Any information would be very useful at this point. Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch Siân. I very much welcome the UK Government's Warm Homes plan. It's going to reduce bills, create jobs and provide business opportunities, and improve our energy security. And we are committed to working with them to ensure that people across Wales benefit from the transition to healthy low-carbon homes.

I did meet with my counterparts across the UK nations on Monday and did stress our support for the ambition in the plan, but officials are now working on the detail, including options for collaborative initiatives and stand-alone complementary policies here in Wales. So, we know that the ambition is clear. We need to, as I say, work on that detail to make sure our policies align, and that includes capturing Wales's fair share of the £15.2 billion investment that is contained in the Warm Homes plan.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. I'm none the wiser, really, in terms of the question that I asked, following that response, but there we are. Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning said that the Government didn't yet have information about the implications of the Miliband plan for Wales. You've just said that you've had discussions Monday of this week. This is an entirely unsatisfactory situation. It doesn't reflect two Labour Governments working in partnership. I would have hoped that those discussions would have been happening over months, as Miliband drew his plans together. So, prior to Monday, when were there discussions on what's contained within the plan? I would like clear confirmation too as to how the UK Government plan will align with plans and schemes here in Wales. Which elements of the Miliband plan will be implemented in Wales? How will the people of Wales receive simple information as to what is available, and from who, within a system that is becoming increasingly complex and difficult to navigate?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Siân. As I said, the Welsh Government was allocated £17 million in 2026-27, £26 million in 2027-28, £26 million in 2028-29, and £17 million in 2029-30 in consequential funding from the £1.5 billion uplift, which was announced in the autumn budget. We are working, as I say, with UK Government to understand the detailed allocation of the remaining £13.2 billion and any resulting consequential funding. Obviously, it's for Welsh Ministers, with the Senedd's approval, to decide how to allocate Welsh Government's budget, which includes funding from the block grant, devolved taxes and capital borrowing. So, where there is a case for using the consequential funding for similar purposes, Welsh Ministers will allocate spending in line with its priorities as part of the appropriate budget programme. In the meantime, we are focused on delivering our existing schemes. We're investing over £130 million this year in free energy efficiency measures through our optimised retrofit programme, Warm Homes Nest scheme, and £4.2 million in zero interest loans through our Green Homes Wales scheme.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. In terms of the retrofit programmes, recent history shows that many mistakes have been made. There have been problems with Consumer Energy Solutions that have highlighted cases where households have been let down. In my constituency, the programme to restore problems caused by Arbed has run into problems. So, it is important, isn't it, that every home is safe, efficient and comfortable. Importantly too, the public should have faith in the work that is being done. Given that housing in Wales is among the worst in Europe in terms of energy efficiency, it's crucial that we restore the trust that has been lost among the public in introducing any new programmes and in continuing with the ongoing retrofit programmes. So, I would like to know what your plans are as a Government to restore public faith in this whole area of home improvements in Wales—work that needs to be done at pace. Plaid Cymru does have some suggestions, but I would like to hear your view as a Government. Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Siân. Absolutely, in terms of quality assurance, I think there are, as you mentioned, schemes that we have learned from. Some of them haven't been Welsh Government schemes, but we have taken on the role of looking at trying to solve some of these problems, because of the impact on householders. One of the things that we have in our schemes is around that quality assurance. We need people to have that trust in that quality assurance. So, installers are independently quality assured, ensuring PAS 2035 standards, which is the official framework for whole-house retrofit, and that outlines the process as best practice for the industry. That's something that I've spoken to UK Government Ministers about, that they can perhaps take some learning from Wales about how they can use for their plans the importance of that quality assurance, which we have to put at the front and centre of everything. And I do believe that it is really important that we learn from the experiences of the last few years and some of the horrendous examples that we have come across.

I'd just like to take the point around the energy company obligation and the ECO closure, as you mentioned CES as well—I have been really concerned about the impact on not just home owners and householders, but also the workforce. Just to say that Welsh Government officials were part of an event this week with the workforce to try to make sure that their skills are used and utilised in other parts of the sector, and they're much-needed skills that we have. And, again, I have spoken to UK Government Ministers directly about my concerns about some examples. I don't want householders to be left in the lurch. He's offered to take those examples from me to make sure that UK Government are aware of what's happening with some of the closures of ECO—that some of these things don't occur. So, I'm keen to send those examples. And as I said, with the workforce, it is something we're keeping an eye on and, again, sharing with UK Government, who has responsibility in this area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson next—Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, Wales is in a housing crisis. There are more than 11,000 people stuck in temporary accommodation, supply of rental accommodation is collapsing due to unprecedented levels of landlords exiting the market, social housing waits are some of the longest in the UK and mortgage repossessions are at their highest since 2019. I think we all agree that supporting home owners to stay in their homes is vital in preventing homelessness, and protects families' well-being and, in the long run, saves public money. What support is actually available for home owners facing homelessness from the Welsh Government? Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Joel. I think one of the things that Welsh Government does have some power over, really, is social housing, and that's why we actually put more money into social housing than ever before. It's going to be £2 billion this Senedd term. That's including £466 million in 2025-26, and also it responded to Audit Wales's calls for additional investment to meet our target. We are forecast to reach our target by November 2026, and that is something we should be incredibly proud of, in partnership with local authorities, our registered social landlords, house builders and all other partners who've made this possible.

In terms of home owners who are facing difficulties with their mortgage, one of the schemes that we have available is our Help to Stay scheme, and that is giving advice to people who do have difficulties with their mortgage. And there is a programme where we are trying to make sure we have a package together to help as many people and support as many people as possible who might face difficulties, and our Help to Stay programme is one of those things that we are doing in Welsh Government.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Help to Stay scheme, as you've just mentioned, was introduced by this Welsh Government in 2023 as part of your disastrous co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. It looks good on paper, but since the scheme launched, just 81 applications have been received. Less than half were supported or assisted to access support through the scheme, and only five have progressed to an equity loan. Yet over this period, there have been over 200 homes repossessed in Wales due to mortgage arrears. These are absolutely appalling figures, and shows, quite frankly, the lack of action from this Labour Welsh Government. So, Cabinet Secretary, what is stopping you helping more people? What barriers has the Welsh Government identified that are stopping people from accessing this scheme? And how do you plan to improve uptake? Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Joel. I just think it would be worth reminding this Chamber that Help to Stay was introduced in the context of a crippling cost-of-living crisis and the previous UK Government's disastrous mini-budget, which did threaten the financial security of countless households across Wales. The highest remortgage rates were seen in October 2022, with the average rate on a two-year fixed-rate mortgage hitting 6.65 per cent. I'm really proud that we stepped in to help support those at risk of defaulting on their mortgage payments. And I do want to help protect those who face the greatest challenge from the cost-of-living crisis increases, keeping those people safe in their homes. I've spoken to people myself who have been helped—families who have been helped by this scheme—and I think it really does go beyond the offering put in place by the former Tory Government's mortgage charter. I think, as a direct response to the cost-of-living pressures, this Government, in co-operation with Plaid Cymru, created Help to Stay Wales, and I think that the people who have been helped are very pleased to have had that support.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Regardless of what's happened in the past, as I've stated, we have the highest levels of mortgage repossessions now, and I would argue that the Help to Stay scheme is unlikely to work for households facing severe affordability pressures or major changes in circumstances, because it still leaves them having to repay a mortgage. We're now seeing renters also being made homeless, when landlords can no longer afford buy-to-let mortgages, which are often at higher interest rates and with far stricter remortgaging criteria, because renters are unable to afford to pay their rent. Added to this are also mortgage prisoners, whose loans have been sold to firms that do not offer new mortgage products, and instead charge interest only, again, often at significantly higher rates than would apply under a new mortgage. Therefore—and you know that I have brought this up in the past—what thought has been given to expanding the criteria of the Help to Stay scheme to include landlords, and what thought has also been given to introduce additional mortgage rescue schemes? Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Joel. Well, in terms of the Help to Stay scheme, its purpose is to reduce the number of home owners at risk of repossession and homelessness by offering them time to resolve their underlying financial issues. So, it's not just an equity loan offer. Home owners who are eligible will receive free mortgage advice from specialist debt advisers, with the costs fully covered by Welsh Government. So, it's part of a package of support for existing and aspiring home owners. The mortgage rescue scheme is still running. It's operated by local authorities, RSLs in Wales, at their discretion, with the aim of helping home owners to avoid mortgage repossession where all other options have been explored. We did, following a review of the eligibility for Help to Stay, consider including applicants with an existing second charge on a case-by-case basis where it's deemed a minimal risk, and we've also recently undertaken a further communications campaign to seek to reach as many people as possible who might need the support. We continue to deliver a programme of stakeholder engagements with partners, including local authorities and the citizens advice bureau, drawing their attention to the scheme and ensuring that they can signpost individuals where necessary, and also officials have been engaging with UK Finance just to make sure that they're aware that the scheme does not require lenders to sign up. So, proof of concept has being established with five successful completions from several high-street lenders. We're constantly looking to see what more we can do to help people in this situation, but I'd encourage every Member here to look at the Help to Stay programme and publicise it. That is a package of support Welsh Government is delivering.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

3. How will the local government settlement 2026-27 impact the people of Bridgend? OQ63744

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Altaf. Following the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, the 2026-27 local government settlement for Bridgend County Borough Council is £296 million. This provides an increase of 4.6 per cent on a like-for-like basis.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Cabinet Secretary, Bridgend is home to some of the most deprived wards in Wales. The latest Welsh index of multiple deprivation puts Caerau as the fourth most deprived area in Wales. Why then does Bridgend County Borough Council receive one of the lowest spends per head of population out of the 22 local authorities? BCBC receives over £300 less per person than Blaenau Gwent. Cabinet Secretary, unless councils like Bridgend and Denbighshire get equitable funding, their citizens will become increasingly impoverished. Do you agree that the local government funding formula needs to be revised?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Altaf. Funding for Bridgend has increased this year by 4.6 per cent compared to 2025-26. After adjusting for transfers, Wales as a whole has seen that increase of 4.5 per cent. In terms of the funding formula, I know this is something—. It came up yesterday in discussions and it comes up regularly. It is often looked at. There are many, many aspects and drivers to the funding formula. This is done in conjunction with local government. We work together with local government on this funding formula and it's constantly under review, making sure that data is updated. The work focuses on updating census-based indicators at the moment. And we are, as I say, constantly looking at the funding formula with local government. But, as I said, funding has increased this year, thanks to that extra funding from a UK Labour Government.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government investment in town centres across north Wales? OQ63752

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Hannah. Working with local authorities, our Transforming Towns programme has invested over £80 million in town centres across north Wales. This investment is reinvigorating high streets, supporting local businesses, creating jobs and driving footfall. Town centres play a vital role in our communities. This Government remains firmly committed to supporting them.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thanks for that update, Cabinet Secretary. And you're right; our towns matter. They're much more than places; they're part of who we are and where we come from. I grew up in a small town and live in one today, and supporting our town centres to thrive, not just survive, has always been a political priority for me. And so, that's why I'm working in my constituency to bring together traders and a range of representatives to support and shape the ongoing regeneration of Holywell high street. Of course, Holywell has received backing through the Transforming Towns programme, which secured the reopening of the high street a number of years ago—as I say, Welsh Government funding that is targeted at turning around towns across north Wales, not least in Rhyl, with multiple projects, including the multi-million pound Queen's Market redevelopment, something that I was really pleased to be able to start the ball rolling on, back when I had responsibility for regeneration. The investment is beginning to make a real difference. But, obviously, we can't stop there and we need to continue.

Cabinet Secretary, are you able to set out an ongoing commitment to investing in our towns and to working with me to find new ways for communities like Holywell and throughout north Wales to have more of a say and a stake in their future? Diolch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Hannah. I'm sure colleagues will remember that you were the Minister who introduced the Transforming Towns programme back in 2020, and I'd like to thank you for launching what's been a very successful programme, showing what Welsh Government can do when working closely with local authorities. I've absolutely seen that impact myself. I feel very fortunate to go around to different communities across Wales and see how that funding is being used. I was recently in Rhyl, at Queen's Market, and it was really good to see what a really vibrant place that will be and can be, through having those local vendors—and I know you've experienced some of the food outlets there as well—and there's that event space as well, which I think will be really important. But I know that our town centres mean such a lot to communities, and that's why we continue to invest in projects, have pots of funding like our Transforming Towns, which, as I say, has seen such an impact in communities across north Wales.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an overview of the funding it provides to Powys County Council to carry out its statutory duties? OQ63755

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

In 2026-27, Powys County Council will receive £268 million from the Welsh Government in core revenue funding and non-domestic rates to spend on delivering statutory and non-statutory services. This represents a 4.2 per cent increase on a like-for-like basis.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. As you're well aware, like many councils across the country, Powys is struggling to fulfil its statutory duties due to funding pressures. We heard yesterday, right the way across the Chamber, from the left to the right, people asking for more money for statutory services, but no-one in this Chamber stated the obvious, did they, that, actually, what we need to do is reform local government across Wales. Because what we see is too much duplication, too much of the same thing right the way across Wales, when, actually, local government reform could be a real way to drive efficiency and make our services and statutory services better for the people of Wales. So, will the Welsh Government commit to doing a piece of work into local government reform to make sure that we have the best services across Wales, judging by the current funding model that we have available to us?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, James. [Interruption.] Diolch, James. When I have spoken to local authority leaders and directors who are working in local government, it's been really positive and uplifting to see some of the innovation that exists in our local authorities. I think one of the key points is how do we share that innovation, and that innovation has been done in some really challenging financial times as well. I think one of the interesting pieces of work that's being done at the moment is with Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen County Borough Councils on the federated model. I'm keen to look at that and, I think, make sure all local authorities are aware of what they are doing. I often cite them, and I think it would be good for all Members to pay close attention to what's happening in Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent and the work that they're doing. I really pay tribute to the leaders of both local authorities as well as the chief executive there.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

6. How is the Welsh Government supporting local authorities to deliver services? OQ63732

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

The Welsh Government supports local authorities to deliver services by working as trusted partners, ensuring early and continuing engagement on matters impacting on local government, and providing fair funding to deliver on national and local priorities.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer. Fly-tipping is becoming more and more of a problem. I wonder what support could be given to local authorities to help deal with it. On the road between Gelligaer and Nelson, rubbish has been strewn across the roadside for weeks, and this isn't a case of one lorry overflowing; it's covering both verges the whole way up the hill. I know local councillors have arranged for cleaning to happen—I welcome that—but more support must be given to the council to ensure it doesn't keep happening. Now, similar problems have been seen on the common between Nelson and Senghennydd. The rubbish there appears, at times, to be builders' waste, household appliances, and, periodically, it gets burned. That could be very dangerous. Yes, of course we need to make it easier for people to dispose of rubbish at public tips, but, where this is commercial waste especially, there should be a stronger deterrent. Too many people just count on never getting caught. What can be done, please, because it is turning our beautiful area into an eyesore?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Delyth. Yes, fly-tipping is a crime and is never justified in any circumstance, and it is horrendous when we see pictures of some of this fly-tipping, some of it on an industrial scale, I think. It's really heartbreaking for communities as well, and people who live there, and also many of the volunteers who actually go and try and report this and collect it, as well as local authorities. We do continue to target those who choose to break the law and pollute our environment, and the Welsh Government does support the use of enforcement to tackle environmental crimes. Local authorities already have a range of enforcement tools that can be used to address litter and fly-tipping offences. These include fixed-penalty notices for small-scale fly-tipping and household waste, but more serious offences such as large-scale fly-tipping or repeat offenders, as you have mentioned, should be brought before courts. So, it is important that local authorities fully utilise the enforcement tools that already are available to them, but I recognise that identifying fly-tippers and bringing successful prosecution is really complex, resource-intensive, and legally challenging for local authorities. But, to help with that, we continue to fund Fly-Tipping Action Wales, and, this financial year, we've provided a further £400,000, building on the £1.2 million provided over the previous three years. Additional funding has been approved to enable Fly-tipping Action Wales, which currently provides direct support to local authorities, in the use of trail cameras to enhance this capability. So, I'm pleased to see that that investment has continued.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Given the Welsh Government's commitment to supporting local authorities, how do you, as Cabinet Secretary, explain the situation in my own local authority, Conwy County Borough Council, where residents are seeing clear service failures despite a huge rise in costs? They've had three years of an almost 10 per cent council tax increase. But, when you look at the waste, by the time of the end of the contract, they've spent £5.1 million on a heavy goods vehicle waste depot that cannot be used, because the floor was never strong enough to hold the recycling vehicles it was rented for. Council tax has increased, as I've mentioned. Four-weekly bin collections are—. We've had those for years and we've seen an increase in rats, we've seen an increase in fly-tipping, we've seen an increase in litter generally on the streets. Public bins themselves are not being emptied regularly—not a good look for residents or our visitors. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that our local authorities in Wales do what they should do and deliver an appropriately good standard of public service? Diolch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Janet. As I say, local authorities have really been, over a number of years now, through difficult financial times, which has put pressure on their budgets, not to say from a UK Conservative Government and some of the decisions of austerity over many years now, 14 years. So, what we do in Welsh Government is to work in trusted partnership with our local authorities. I regularly meet local authority leaders, and last week I was actually in Denbighshire as well. So, you know, I do see what—. I do pay close attention to how local authorities are engaging with their communities.

Obviously, we work, as I said, closely with local authority leaders, and the Welsh Government does continue to prioritise the funding for local government, as we have throughout this Senedd. And we have agreed with Plaid Cymru an additional £112.8 million to support local government, and that means local authorities are going to receive an extra £6.6 billion to deliver those key services.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

7. How does the Welsh Government work with councils in South Wales East to ensure statutory services are being delivered effectively? OQ63733

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Natasha. I work with partners in the Welsh Local Government Association and councils across Wales to support the delivery and improvement of statutory services. Our approach, outlined in our strategic partnership agreement, is to work in trusted partnership while recognising councils' sovereign status, focusing on sector-led improvement for the whole sector.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much for your response, Cabinet Secretary. It's clear from discussions with residents across Newport that many don't believe they're getting value for money when it comes to their city council. Time and time again, locals are forced to cough up more cash, but they feel they're having less and less to show for it. Last year, tax bills in Newport rocketed by 6.7 per cent, and the year before bills rose by a staggering 8.5 per cent. This year, it looks as though residents should brace themselves for a 4.9 per cent increase. Let's not forget, residents are going to have more money squeezed out of them at the same time. Newport City Council is poised to receive more money from the Welsh Government than any other local authority in Wales, and, despite the funding boost and increased council tax, I can bet my bottom dollar that potholes will still remain unfilled, fly-tipping will continue to blight our communities, our roads will continue to deteriorate, businesses will continue to be punished, anti-social behaviour will remain rife, and services will continue to decline. So, will you join me, Cabinet Secretary, in urging your Labour colleagues in Newport to go back to the drawing board over the proposed tax hike? And how is the Government ensuring that extra funding being given to the city council will be spent wisely on the things that matter to my constituents the most? Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Natasha. Newport, as I say, have received 6.1 per cent in their local government funding settlement for this year, and Newport City Council are at the moment engaging with the community on the setting of their budget this year. As I say, I know that Newport City Council have been certainly taking advantage of that extra funding in this year's settlement around the filling of the potholes. I've seen that for myself across much of the city, which I know that residents will be very pleased about. And Newport City Council say it is communicating with residents at the moment, and I hope that as many residents as possible will play their part in that communication.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

8. What processes does the Welsh Government use to develop and issue guidance to local authorities in the exercise of their functions? OQ63717

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Mark. The Welsh Government develops guidance through a collaborative approach with local authorities, working closely with local authorities and partners to develop and review practical, proportionate guidance that strengthens councils’ ability to deliver their functions, and support transparency, effective governance and consistency across Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Referring to the Welsh benefits charter here last month, I noted that in 2019 the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, of which I was a member, recommended that the Welsh Government establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits for which it is responsible, underpinned by a set of principles co-produced with people who claim these benefits and the wider Welsh public, and I referred to the Bevan Foundation's statement regarding the charter in January 2024, that participation is voluntary, with a risk that some bodies do not participate at all, while others do their own thing. Although the charter was agreed by all 22 local authorities, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice stated in her response that,

'It is the responsibility of local authorities to deliver on the objectives of this plan',

and referred to the policy steering group. However, although the Welsh Government's streamlining Welsh benefits route-map states that best practice guidance would be issued to local authorities by quarter four 2025, the social justice Secretary made no reference to this. So, has this happened, and if not, why not?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Mark, and as you know this is led by my Cabinet colleague for social justice, Jane Hutt, and I know that she has met with local authority leaders on this issue as well, and I have raised it with local authority leaders myself. I'll certainly ask my Cabinet colleague to respond to you in writing on this point, because she's leading on this as well, so I'll make sure you have an up-to-date response on that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is to be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and Carolyn Thomas will ask the question. Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

1. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to ensure that tertiary education providers are prepared for the growth of the renewable energy sector in North Wales? OQ63746

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

My ministerial colleagues and I work closely to support institutions in their role helping to drive renewable energy growth. I recently met with the North Wales Tertiary Alliance to discuss the exciting opportunities institutions are already engaging with, ensuring they are well placed to offer support, and benefit from them.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. It's fantastic news that the UK Labour Government is investing in Awel y Môr off the coast of Rhyl. This major development has the potential to power up half of Wales's homes and create around 2,000 jobs during the construction phase. We must act now to ensure that people in north Wales are first in line to benefit from those well-paid, well-skilled jobs. I've previously met RWE apprentices at Coleg Llandrillo, and I was really impressed by the high level of knowledge and skills that they are developing there. What steps are you taking to work with education providers across north Wales to ensure that students and parents are aware of these opportunities—parents are so influential in the decisions of children and young people—and that they are supported to access them going forward?

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank Carolyn Thomas for that very important supplementary question, and we continue to work closely with further and higher education providers across north Wales to ensure that learners and their parents and also jobseekers are aware of the huge range of emerging opportunities linked to offshore wind and the wider green economy. This includes things like strengthening apprenticeship pathways, engaging with employers to shape curriculum needs, and also co-ordinating with Careers Wales to support clear, accessible information about future skills and employment routes.

The Welsh Government actually held a skills summit last week at Coleg Menai in Llangefni, where I and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning and the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership led discussions to explore how we can shape the future skills landscape in north Wales. There was a focus there on Wylfa, renewable energy developments and wider regional growth initiatives. At that summit, there was a really firm focus on the need to ensure that students and their parents are aware of the opportunities available. There were lots of examples provided about how schools are working with colleges in the region, and how colleges are offering open evenings to showcase those opportunities. We've also worked with the regional skills partnership on a skills prospectus, which provides information on the skills offer in the region.

And finally, I think it's important to note that FE colleges across north Wales, including Coleg Cambria and Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, host employment and enterprise bureaux, which provide direct advice, employer talks, careers fairs and information sessions to help those learners understand the sector opportunities.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In October, I visited Coleg Cambria's Deeside campus and Llandrillo Menai's Rhyl campus with ColegauCymru, CollegesWales. At Coleg Cambria, I met with construction apprentices and motor vehicle engineering apprentices, with discussions including the drop in construction apprenticeship starts identified by Medr and the college's diversification into motor vehicle hydrogen engineering. My visit to Grŵp Llandrillo Menai Rhyl included meeting RWE offshore wind apprentices, just like we've heard, who explained the package of support they received personally from RWE. Reference at both these visits, and at my visit to Wrexham University last week to see their impressive new centre for engineering and innovation and to discuss exciting plans for their new business gateway, was made, as you did, to the North Wales Tertiary Alliance between both colleges and both north Wales universities, to strengthen the skills development, economic growth and life opportunities of the north Wales region. How are you therefore supporting their goal for this to act as a vital bridge between them and the local industry?

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank Mark Isherwood for that supplementary question and recognition of the work that's being done across the tertiary education sector in north Wales, through the North Wales Tertiary Alliance, on a range of different courses and opportunities for learners of all ages that link directly into these opportunities with Wylfa, with the AI growth zone and with the floating offshore wind development as well. I think that the clearest example of the support that we are giving now is through that round-table that brought together all those partners, with also business and bodies such as Ambition North Wales and the regional skills partnership, to get that really firm focus on the skills that are needed for the future and how we can all work together to deliver them.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

2. What progress has the Welsh Government made in implementing the recommendations of the Estyn report A New Era: How Artificial Intelligence (AI) is Supporting Teaching and Learning, in schools? OQ63747

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Having accepted all the recommendations in Estyn’s report, we are working with Estyn, Dysgu and local authorities to ensure effective delivery. We've strengthened national guidance, expanded professional learning, enhanced AI-ready infrastructure through Hwb, and begun updating the digital competence framework to embed safe, ethical and equitable AI use.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

Thank you for your answer. I believe that the truth is that Wales is behind the curve on AI in most aspects, including not only the use of AI, but more importantly its regulation. What concerns me is that the pace of change in AI is fast. The thematic report, which was released in October last year, may in fact even be outdated in some regards by the same time this year, or even now. Will the Minister commit to regular reviews going forward, or at least set the expectation for a future Welsh Government, so that schools are on top of those changes, please?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank you, Lindsay, for that question? I don't agree with you that we are behind on AI. What I do agree with you on is that, obviously, it's a bit like a moving target, isn't it; it changes all the time. So, it is vital that we keep up to date with everything that is happening. I think the Estyn report was very valuable and we have already been working on implementing those recommendations. In line with what you said about constant review, Estyn have just surveyed all schools again, asking about practices in relation to AI. So, they are working with us to keep up to date with these things.

As a Government, we are very proactive on this; we have an AI sub-group that is part of our wider digital work, where we work with Estyn, with local authorities and others. Last week, I attended the UK Government summit on AI in London, which was followed by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's launch of its new guidance on AI. So, we're also looking very carefully at what's happening over the border, across the UK, but vitally in other countries. And we're particularly keen on the work that we do with the OECD in this space, because, obviously, they have that wider view of everything that's happening.

I'm also pleased that, in February, Estyn, working with the British Council and local authorities, are going to be leading a study visit for 10 secondary schools to Estonia, to explore the benefits and challenges faced in integrating AI into education. You'll probably be aware that Estonia are considered a leading country in the digital space.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

I remind Members of my interest, as a close family member works for Estyn, albeit not on the preparation of this report. Can I draw attention to parts of the report that say that whilst there is an embracement of AI in schools across Wales, obviously that is quite patchy in different schools, and certain members of staff, almost, sometimes, who have a particular interest in or knowledge of AI, are the ones often driving this forward?

The ability of AI to do the things that it possibly can do, both in the sense of preparation and in the classroom, is only as strong as its actual use in that classroom in the first place. So, how are you ensuring, Cabinet Secretary, that AI is being properly understood, as Lindsay Whittle said, as it develops, because the things that we think we know today might not be the things that apply tomorrow in terms of AI, and that it is being properly understood and utilised, both in classrooms and in preparatory work across the country?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thanks, Tom. You make a very important point when you say that AI is only as good as the people who are using it, and that's not just our professionals, but also our learners, and we want our learners to be discerning, informed users of AI as well.

Access to high-quality professional learning is essential if we're going to upskill our workforce across the board. Obviously, Estyn's report focused on particularly good practice in some areas and we want to see that good practice spread across Wales. I think it is important to note that, as beneficial as AI can be, it can never be seen as a replacement for the vital relational role of our teaching staff, with teacher agency remaining central to effective learning. So, through Dysgu, we are developing professional learning to support schools and practitioners in exploring how AI can enhance teaching, learning and school improvement, and that aligns with our strategic priorities for digital innovation, equity and excellence within the Curriculum for Wales, ensuring that AI is used safely, ethically and effectively to improve learner outcomes and strengthen professional practice.

As part of initial teacher education, there's a requirement for student teachers to develop their knowledge and skills for digital competence. We're preparing the next iteration of the criteria for accreditation for ITE, and we're looking at how to incorporate the use of AI into these requirements. We have already placed learning resources on AI on platforms like Hwb, but as Lindsay highlighted, this is a rapidly evolving position, so we're looking to Dysgu, as well, to work with us on that professional learning offer going forward. AI offers tremendous opportunities, but we also need to be mindful of the risks and the need to put safeguards and guardrails in place.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I want to return to an issue I've raised in this Siambr several times, and that's the ongoing crisis in teacher recruitment and retention. The latest Welsh Government figures show the scale of the challenge. In 2023, there were 2,040 initial teacher education enrolments across Welsh higher education providers, but only 505 were training for secondary settings. That's 56 per cent below the allocated places, and it should be a case for real concern.

Yesterday, the Children, Young People and Education Committee published its report looking specifically at this issue. Its findings make clear that the Government must take meaningful action to ensure that the teaching profession becomes an attractive and appealing career destination for young people. Teaching is an incredibly rewarding and vital job, and teachers change lives every day. But today's teachers face increasing pressures—from heavier workloads to behaviour challenges and rising administrative demands. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you outline how the Welsh Government plans to make teaching an attractive career once more, so that more people feel able and encouraged to enter this essential profession?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Cefin, for that question. I think I should reflect on the fact that I regularly meet teachers who say to me, 'This is the best job in the world'. It's important that we celebrate that and celebrate everything that's good about teaching. We'll be hosting our national teaching awards in the Senedd next month, and I'm hoping lots of you will come along to hear about that brilliant practice.

The challenges that we face in recruitment and retention are, of course, not unique to Wales. This is a worldwide phenomenon. I've spoken before about the fact that teaching as a job has changed completely. I've met teachers who have said to me, 'I'm a teacher, I'm a psychologist, I'm a police officer, I'm a social worker'. What we're trying to do as a Government is put more support into schools so that those jobs feel less burdensome, and recognise that there needs to be more societal and cross-Government support for what schools are doing.

As you know, we are developing a strategic education workforce plan, which is going to be published in March. That will set out our vision for supporting the school workforce in four key areas: ensuring quality teaching and learning; addressing workload issues; responding to new challenges for the school workforce; and ensuring that teaching, leadership and supporting teaching remains an attractive career pathway. All of those aspects will be underpinned by our commitment to staff well-being as well, because we know that school staff can't pour from an empty cup.

I welcome the committee's report. You won't expect me to respond to that today, but we will be providing a detailed response. I think I set out when I came to the committee the range of work that we're doing on this. It is a complex issue and involves lots of different pieces of a puzzle to come together to support our teaching workforce.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for your response. Another issue that's frequently raised with me is the significant difference between the financial incentives available to trainee teachers in England compared to those here in Wales. For example, bursaries for trainee physics teachers in England are currently £14,000 a year higher than those available here.

At a time when the cost of living is a major factor for students, it's understandable that such a difference would draw many prospective teachers across the border to train in England. This is a concern, because we know, in general, that 25 per cent of graduates who are educated in England actually stay in England to work.

Plaid Cymru has been clear that this funding gap needs to be closed. As a party, we are proposing more competitive incentives, including bursaries of up to £30,000 for priority subjects, tied to a commitment to teach in Wales for at least five years after completing probation. This will support individuals financially, while also strengthening the workforce in the long term.

Cabinet Secretary, what steps are you taking to stop young people from Wales being drawn into the English system simply because it offers more generous financial support? And how are you going to make teaching, once again, an attractive and rewarding career for the next generation?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Cefin. I think it's important to say that, overall, we've got the most generous student financial support package in the UK, which I'm very proud of. Obviously, I'm aware that there's a disparity in terms of the incentives offered by us in Wales, and you'll be aware that we are continuing to invest in those incentives. And some trainee teachers—those who are doing a priority subject, are from a minority ethnic community, and through the medium of Welsh, for instance—will benefit from an accumulated set of incentives.

It is something that I have been looking at. You'll recall that when I gave evidence to the committee, I explained to the committee that, actually, there isn't clear evidence on the issue of incentives making a difference, but it is something that I have been keen to look at. You'll also be aware that on the budget settlement for education, I told the committee that I didn't have any money to further invest in incentives in this year. But I think it's important that it is something that is kept under review.

I don't think it's the only factor. I also hear from teachers who say that, because we work in social partnership in Wales, because we're putting this emphasis on well-being in Wales, actually, for many people, teaching in Wales can be more attractive. I think it is about those things as well.

We've been working with our partners in trade unions to reduce workload. Things like that really matter to people as well. The evidence is that salary and things like that are not the biggest issues when it comes to recruiting and retaining teachers; it's also about quality of life, well-being, and teachers having that agency as well. So, I think it's more complex, but I think it's important that it's kept under review.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. One other key barrier in terms of recruiting teachers is the reduction in the number of young people who choose to study A-levels. Research by Universities Wales shows that A-level participation in Wales is significantly lower than it is in England, with only 33 per cent of young people studying A-levels in Wales, compared with 47 per cent across the border.

This causes great concern, because A-levels are a vital step on the pathway to be a teacher. This is a problem that affects every subject, but it's particularly serious in areas where there is already a shortage, including education through the medium of Welsh.

In giving evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee, the Welsh Government acknowledged that recruitment for initial teacher education in the secondary sector is challenging, particularly on Welsh-medium pathways. And the low numbers that choose Welsh as a subject at A-level is exacerbating this challenge.

Given this context, what specific action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage more young people to study A-level, in order to strengthen the pathway to qualify as teachers? And how will you ensure that enough Welsh-medium teachers join the profession, so that we have the education workforce that we need in order to deliver the ambitions of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Cefin. I think it's important that young people pursue the options that they want to pursue. I'm really pleased that we've seen such a big increase in the numbers of people going to further education, for instance. Some of those learners won't choose A-level options; they'll choose vocational routes or other routes. I think it's also important to recognise that, in Wales, we have lots of people who return to education as adults as well, and how important it is to support them.

As I've explained to the committee, this is a complex issue in terms of the supply of Welsh-medium teachers. One of the things that we've just done is review the A-level qualification for Welsh language, both for second language and for first language speakers, because I think there was a recognition that perhaps they weren't that attractive to learners. I did A-level Welsh second language and one of my officials said that it hasn't really changed much since when I did it, really. So, obviously, you've got to move with the times and make sure that qualifications are attractive to learners.

We are putting lots of things in place to make it attractive for people to teach through the medium of Welsh. I've talked to you before about the schemes that we have in place encouraging people to move from English-medium to Welsh-medium teaching: we've got mentoring schemes; we keep in touch with Welsh speakers over the border who may come back to teach through the medium of Welsh; we've got a Welsh-medium grant to support schools with the work that they're doing. But it is going to be the case that to fulfil the expectations of the Act, there is going to have to be a continued focus on this, which is what we are continuing to do, and that will also be part of our strategic education workforce plan.

You'll have also seen that my colleague Vicky Howells has announced a call for evidence on post-16 education. I'm sure that some of the lessons from that will inform any action that we could take around the A-level space. But, actually, our recruitment into post-16 is very buoyant at the moment.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson next. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, nearly a year ago, you told the Chamber here that the Welsh Government was tackling issues like attendance head on. You said that progress had been too slow and insisted there was more to do, before declaring that you wanted to see pre-pandemic levels of attendance restored within this Senedd term. Fast-forward nearly a year since your remarks, and my question is very simple, Cabinet Secretary: what have you actually done to improve attendance between then and now?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much for that question, Natasha. Tackling attendance has been a priority for the Government and, actually, we have made improvements. Overall, attendance in maintained schools in Wales rose to 91.1 per cent in the 2024-25 academic year, up from 90.5 per cent in the 2023-24 academic year.

You'll also be aware that we have invested very significantly in tackling attendance issues. This year, I provided £7 million in additional funding for a range of support to help improve attendance. The figures that were released on 27 January show that the average attendance for this academic year to date is 90.9 per cent, which is broadly consistent with the 91.0 per cent recorded over the same period in the 2024-25 academic year. I am aware that there was a slight dip before Christmas, which was also the case over the border. I understand that that has been down to issues like illness and also challenges with the weather, et cetera.

But we are continuing to focus as a Government on this. There's additional funding again in the final budget that was agreed yesterday to support attendance. I think the reality is that this is not a simple issue to address—it is a complex issue. That's why we have invested so much money in family engagement officers, who can work with families around the complex issues of why children aren't attending school as much as we would like.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary, but I fear that your comments in March last year were nothing more than another example of a Labour politician overpromising and underdelivering. It's clear that your vow, Cabinet Secretary, to restore attendance to pre-pandemic levels as soon as possible, and within this Senedd term, is meaningless. Whatever action the Government claims to have taken has just not worked, has it? Because school attendance levels remain worryingly lower than pre-pandemic levels. More than half of the most vulnerable pupils in Wales were persistently absent in 2024-25, up from 30.4 per cent in 2018-19. Year 11 pupils, so GCSE pupils, recorded the lowest attendance, averaging 86.8 per cent in 2024-25, 6.4 percentage points lower than what it was in 2018-19.

These stats are really concerning to me, and I'm sure many others too, but they're more than just stats, Cabinet Secretary. I'm sure you can appreciate that. Because behind these figures are children who are missing out on learning, which will ultimately impact their future prospects. Frankly, Labour letting our children down is nothing new for me and many others; it has been happening here in Wales for more than a quarter of a century. So, Cabinet Secretary, given that it looks highly unlikely that the Welsh Labour Government will hit its target of restoring attendance to pre-pandemic levels by the end of this Senedd term, why should the people of Wales believe anything else that this Government says when it comes to education?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Natasha. I would never just see figures as just statistics. I am acutely aware that behind every one of those figures is a child or young person who we want to achieve the very best that they can. This is a challenging issue and we are seeing improvement, although it would be wrong to suggest that I'm happy with where levels are now. As I said, overall attendance in Wales rose in the 2024-25 academic year. I'm really pleased that the percentage of half-day sessions missed by pupils in primary and secondary schools decreased to 8.9 per cent in 2024-25 from 9.5 per cent the previous year, and the numbers of pupils who were persistently absent fell from 30.4 per cent to 27 per cent in 2024-25. So, schools are making progress, but we're not complacent. We're about to launch a consultation on attendance codes on 12 February, so that we can get much more granular detail on the reasons why children aren't attending school. This is something, again, that is a challenge across the world. It is something that has worsened since the pandemic. But we are working really hard as a Government, taking lots and lots of different actions to tackle the complexities of this issue, and we're committed to going even further.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. The fact is it's not just attendance where this Government is failing, let's be honest. Despite what you might like to claim, the Government's record on education speaks for itself. Just look at the Government's final budget. It certainly did not go down with all quarters in our education system. NEU Cymru has warned that our schools are at breaking point. Its Welsh secretary, Nicola Fitzpatrick, warned, and I quote:

'Children and young people are missing out on vital support, especially those with additional learning needs. Teachers and support staff are seeing their workloads increase, whilst supporting children with increasingly complex needs.

'Whilst it is welcome that the Welsh Government has found some extra money, this won't go far enough to support the drops in funding experienced across Wales. Welsh Government needs to find the funding to save education in Wales, and support the workforce to deliver for every child.'

This is not me speaking, Cabinet Secretary; this is the NEU. So, do you accept, Cabinet Secretary, that this budget is bad for our education system and that this Government has yet again let our future generation down? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Natasha, for that question. You're never going to find me doing anything other than arguing for more resources for our schools, because that is what I have done consistently. We have announced additional funding for ALN as part of the money that is held centrally through the education MEG. I very much recognise the pressures that schools are facing with ALN. We know that numbers are rising, complexity is rising, and the overall picture of what schools are dealing with is much more challenging. That's why, of the additional money I was allocated for the education MEG, I have prioritised resources for ALN. For the next financial year, there is an extra £20.3 million for ALN learners, on top of the money that was already in there. That's an overall investment of £74 million.

You referred to the budget that was passed yesterday. You'll be aware that £113 million of that budget will be going to local government, which is the vehicle for most of our school funding. I think it's very important now that we do everything we can to make sure that local government recognises that that funding has been invested to address the pressures that we know are there in schools. Local government have told us there are £137 million of pressures in schools. They are very well aware of that as well. I will be continuing to pursue that with local government colleagues, to make sure the maximum amount of money reaches our schools.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's support for the relocation of the Coleg Gwent campus to Newport city centre? OQ63754

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

The Welsh Government is actively engaged with Coleg Gwent regarding the relocation of its campus and delivery of its Newport knowledge quarter in the heart of the city, through the mutual investment model element of the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you for that, Minister. I know that Welsh Government officials met with representatives of the college to discuss the relocation plans, just before Christmas, I think, and I thank you for keeping me updated with regard to those meetings. As you're aware, Minister, this would be transformational for further education in Newport and around. It would put further education right in the faces, as it were, of local people and our local young people. At the same time, it would be very significant for Newport city centre in terms of providing additional footfall to support the retail offer and businesses in the city centre. So, I think it's potentially transformational from a number of different angles. Unsurprisingly, there's a great deal of impatience locally to see this relocation come to fruition. So, I'd just like further reassurance, Minister, that the Welsh Government will continue to work with the college and other partners to make sure that that relocation takes place as quickly as possible.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, John, for that supplementary question. Our £500 million education mutual investment model pipeline currently includes that new campus for Coleg Gwent within Newport city centre, and it builds on successful school projects in Rhondda Cynon Taf and Flintshire, and over £119 million of capital equivalent investment in the Cardiff and Vale twin campus project, where construction is well under way. The MIM pipeline also includes significant planned investment at other FE colleges as well, like Coleg Sir Gâr and NPTC group.

But turning specifically to the college that you are referring to, I absolutely agree with you that the Newport knowledge quarter has the potential to realise wide-ranging benefits for both further education and city centre regeneration too, and I know that both of those issues are very close to your heart. It reflects close collaboration across the Welsh public sector, with Newport City Council obtaining Welsh Government Transforming Towns funding of over £1 million to support the demolition of the former leisure centre there to make way for the knowledge quarter project.

So, we recognise the potential benefits of this proposal in terms of skills development, learner access and city centre regeneration, and, as you say, officials have been working closely with the college as the project develops through the business case process. In addition to the meeting that you referred to in December, just to reassure you, my officials have met with the college on three additional occasions this month, and are helping them to finalise clarifications raised through the outline business case scrutiny process. So, there should be further positive news very soon.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's policy on the use of smartphones in schools? OQ63725

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary set a national expectation that schools in Wales will be phone-free by default during the school day, with clear and limited exceptions for medical reasons, caring responsibilities and additional learning needs? OQ63739

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Llywydd, I understand that you've given your permission for questions 4 and 6 to be grouped.

Decisions on smartphone use, including during break times, remain a matter for individual schools. Following the behaviour summit, I set up a dedicated forum to develop new national guidance and support on mobile phone use in schools.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Can I thank you for that answer? Of course, I accept that this is not straightforward; it's a complex and a very new, novel area. There is a case that is now going to court in California, the first of these cases, where they will argue over the evidence over whether certain social media platforms negligently create products that cause addiction, depression and other trauma. The evidence produced in that particular case is that what has been happening with these social media platforms is that they are using their algorithms in a way to effectively create addiction in order to achieve access to advertising and consequently revenue. It is, in many ways, a modern version of what the tobacco companies used to do when they increased nicotine in tobacco in order to increase and secure their market share. I understand that, obviously, there is guidance to schools on this, but I do wonder, in terms of the evidence that is really beginning to emerge about the way in which these large corporations are behaving and the evidence emerging, about the need for some form of consistency in our schools—and bearing in mind what is happening in other countries across the world, in some of them at the moment in terms of banning uses—whether erring on the side of caution is something that you've given consideration to in terms of schools, creating that six-hour non-access to mobile phones and social media during the education period, particularly while we learn and seek to understand more about what is happening, and the way in which these corporations are using algorithms and the issue of addiction and mental health issues.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank Mick for his supplementary? As I said, we've got this forum on mobile phones. They've almost completed their work. They've been meeting monthly. We've brought together stakeholders, trade unions, but also academic experts on this, and I'm waiting to receive their report on that and will update the Senedd further in due course. I would say that the work is in line with the recommendations of the Senedd Petitions Committee report on mobile phones, which recognised that this is not a straightforward issue.

You make important points about social media, because it's not just the access to phones, and I think it's important to remember that lots of children's access to social media is happening outside schools, in their homes. You'll be aware that I've received a letter from the Minister for AI and Online Safety outlining the UK Government's intention to bring forward a three-month consultation on children's use of technology, and that's going to be backed by a national conversation on the impact of technology on children's well-being.

Again, I think we have to be careful that what we do in this space is evidence based and also involves listening to children and young people. We know that this is not a straightforward issue; social media can help children to stay in touch and keep connected, especially if they're vulnerable, and I'm aware that some of the children's charities have raised concerns—including the NSPCC and the Molly Rose Foundation—about potential unintended consequences. This is a reserved matter in terms of a ban on social media, but we are pressing the UK Government to make sure that the voices of stakeholders, but vitally children and young people in Wales, are heard as part of that.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Cabinet Secretary, UNESCO's Global Education Monitoring team just before Christmas described a quiet revolution in schools worldwide. In 2023, only around a quarter of countries had smartphone bans across schools. Today, it's over half, and this isn't just central governance; in decentralised systems, the direction of travel is just as clear. All Australian states and territories now have blanket bans in place in schools. Spain has seen bans spread across most of the autonomous communities, including Catalonia, now removing earlier exceptions, and in the United States, state action there is also accelerating, with 36 states plus the District of Columbia restricting phones in schools. So, England, with the announcement this week, is simply the latest move to a phone-free default by expectation. If we don't move, given the growing evidence of harm that we've heard and the precautionary principle, isn't there a real risk here that Wales will be left behind and Welsh young people and their well-being will be placed at unnecessary risk?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Adam, for that supplementary. I've got no intention of Wales being left behind on this or in anything as far as I'm concerned. That's why we have this group that is looking at this in detail. The well-being of our learners is absolutely central to everything that we're doing. They're at the point now of completing their work, and I'll be able to update Senedd Members in due course on that.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Looking at this particular issue, Minister, the one thing that's clear is that schools that have got bans in place at the moment in the UK clearly say that what will benefit the implementation of it is strong central guidance and the universal banning of phones in schools, because obviously it creates localised conflict when parents who don't subscribe to supporting the school point to other schools in the locality that don't have such measures. Are you persuaded by the evidence that that should be directed from your department, such a national ban, to assist with implementation?

Just on another point, in response to Mick Antoniw, you touched on it being a reserved responsibility, I think, access to social media. Do you have the power to bring a ban in, or is there some element of reserved power that you have to overcome first of all before you can bring such a ban in here in Wales?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Andrew. The point that I made to Mick was in relation to the social media ban. It is our understanding that a social media ban—just as the Online Safety Act 2023 is a reserved matter, so would a social media ban be. The issue with mobile phones is different. I have heard from some headteachers that they would like more of a national steer on this, which is why we are looking at this, but I've also had heads say to me that they think that this should be a matter for school leaders to determine, based on their context. So, there are different views on this, which is why we will be talking to stakeholders about the work that our group has done. Now, to have an absolutely enforceable ban, as I understand it, that would involve a change in legislation, but we can, of course, issue statutory guidance. And I will update the Senedd on that as soon as the working group has finished their work.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

5. What assessment has the Government made of the implementation of the additional learning needs system in North Wales? OQ63758

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

I have reviewed implementation of the additional learning needs system, including in north Wales. While there is much positive progress to build upon, I have also identified areas requiring improvement. We are working closely with local authorities and partners to progress the priorities set out in my statement on 14 October.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, one clear message that we consistently hear are warnings from the Welsh Local Government Association and others about the fact that the pressures coming from ALN provision now account for over a quarter of all of the financial pressures facing schools, and that local authorities, therefore, as a result, are having difficulty in maintaining services of quality without the investment required.

Would you, as Cabinet Secretary, accept that the current funding arrangements don't reflect the true cost of providing the statutory support that children and young people with ALN need? I heard you earlier listing investments, and we welcome all of those, of course, as well as the role that Plaid Cymru has played in ensuring more funding for local authorities, but do you feel that there is adequate funding in the system to meet demand? And if you don't, what is the plan to close that gap, because, otherwise, we will never reach a point where services are sustainable?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much, Llyr, for that supplementary. I am very aware, whenever I meet with local government, they raise ALN pressures with me, just as schools do. That's why, with the additional money I was given from the budget for the main expenditure group, I prioritised ALN. That additional investment of £20.3 million, which will be added to the existing money of £74 million, will include £41 million allocated across local authorities, schools and colleges. There will also be £9.8 million for a range of strategic and operational activities, aimed at embedding and sustaining the ALN system. The cost of supporting learners in post-16 specialist provision is substantial. There's £19.9 million for that. And we've also baselined the £4 million for additional learning needs co-ordinators to move to the leadership scale within the revenue support grant.

The demands on ALN are constantly growing. As part of the work that we've done to review the ALN system, one of our working groups is actually looking at the money and where the money is going, so we should have a more detailed understanding of how that money will be spent. I think it's also important to say that, longer term, if the system is going to be sustainable—and this is a challenge that countries across the world are facing—we do need to have more inclusive provision, which is why, as well as making sure our ALN system is consistently implemented, we're also working towards making our classrooms more inclusive as a whole.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Since the ALN framework has been implemented across Wales, we've seen varied benefits over the special needs education framework, including better parent collaboration, senior leader visibility of inclusion and overall expanded provisions. However, ALN is placing increasing strain on our schools and local authorities. Over the past few decades, we've seen a significant rise in pupils presenting with additional learning needs, and local authorities are facing significant financial strain, with ALN costs in 2025-26 accounting for over a quarter of all school budget pressures. A 2025 study on ALNCOs in primary schools reported increased workload and paperwork.

In north Wales, schools have raised concerns about delays in preparation of individual development plans and shortages of specialist staff, all of which point to a system under real operational strain. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell us what specific assessment the Welsh Government has made on how the ALN system is functioning in north Wales, and what further action will be taken to ensure that schools and local authorities are properly resourced to meet their statutory duties?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much for that supplementary. Obviously, I answered Llyr on the funding points. I should say that I have heard directly from delivery partners and parents in north Wales. In 2025 I met with north Wales local authorities to discuss progress on ALN system implementation ahead of the review of the ALN legislative framework, which did look, right across the board, at how ALN is operating, and all local authorities in Wales submitted evidence as part of this review. The system is under pressure because of rising numbers and growing complexity. That's why we're prioritising investment in it, but we're also working to ensure that our legislation is consistently implemented, as we go on that journey to all our schools being much more inclusive.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, as question 6 has been answered and 7 [OQ63743] is withdrawn, question 8—Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government's plans to address school absenteeism in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ63756

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Improving attendance rates is a key priority. We are seeing improvements both in the Member's constituency and across Wales. Our focus remains on removing barriers so that every child can attend regularly and succeed.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. School absenteeism can have a significant impact on educational outcomes, as has been discussed this afternoon, but tackling it effectively requires consistency in how attendance is recorded. I have recently written to you regarding a child who received speech and language therapy at home from a private tutor who was, until recently, employed by the NHS under the local health board. Because they are now classed as private tutoring, Pembrokeshire County Council has restricted the tutor's ability to support pupils on school premises during school hours. As a result, that child now arrives half an hour late to school once a week, and this is recorded as unauthorised absence. In a neighbouring local authority, the same tutor is able to provide support on school sites without encountering any such barriers. This inconsistency is unfair to both the school and the pupil. So, what action will you take to ensure that situations such as this are treated consistently and fairly, that unauthorised absences are recorded accurately and that parents seeking vital additional support for their children are treated equally across Wales?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much for your supplementary, and, as I said in response to Natasha, we’re about to consult on changes to our attendance codes, which will give us much more granular detail on the reasons for absence, including on particular health needs. I wasn't aware of that inconsistency that you've just referred to. It was my understanding that a medical appointment would be recorded as authorised absence. You said that you've written to me. I've not seen the letter yet, but I will take a look at that, because I think it is important that there is consistency, and, as part of the work that we're doing with local authorities, that's a message that I regularly relay to them.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical question is next, to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and to be asked by Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact on Wales of the UK Government's White Paper on police reform? TQ1434

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr. Welsh Government is analysing the White Paper and its implications for Wales, as set out in my statement yesterday. We continue to engage with the UK Government policing Minister, policing in Wales and partners to consider the best arrangements for Wales, including opportunities to progress the devolution of policing to Wales.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

We welcome the written statement the Cabinet Secretary referred to, issued yesterday, but it still does raise a number of significant questions, as well as concerns that it will lead to a further centralisation of an already centralised system. In particular, could you explain the extent of your input in the development of this White Paper? What role will you now have in designing and implementing any changes with respect to Wales? Will you, for example, have the ability to veto any proposals that you deem contrary to our interests?

You mentioned in your written statement the conversations you've had previously with the policing Minister and her attendance at the policing partnership board for Wales in December 2025. Could you explain what you were calling for as part of these conversations, and have any of them been reflected in the White Paper?

We welcome the Government confirming its expectation that these reforms should not lead to the creation of regional police forces across both sides of the Wales-England border. Can you confirm whether you've formally expressed this view to the UK Government? And how will you exercise your influence to ensure that such an outcome does not ultimately materialise?

The Welsh Government currently spends over £100 million of its own resources on police services, despite the fact that, uniquely of the devolved administrations, it has no constitutional powers in this area. It really is the worst of both worlds. So, could you confirm whether the proposed review of the police funding formula and local distribution of police funding will specifically look at this anomaly of devolved resources being spent in non-devolved areas? Can you also provide assurances that money raised in Wales for the purposes of policing, through the police precept element of the council tax, will be reinvested in Wales alone, rather than being channelled towards a centrally managed pot in Westminster?

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, this is a serious matter. The written statement rightly states that the White Paper provides a clear opportunity to strengthen the devolution settlement by transferring full powers to Wales over policing justice, as recommended by the Thomas commission. However, the contemptuous response received from the Home Secretary when this was raised with her underlines how far removed the UK Government is from the Welsh Government's formal position. So, could you explain why the UK Government are effectively pre-empting the outcome of a review into police governance by categorically ruling out further devolution to Wales? And why do you think that a significant proportion of the parliamentary Labour Party in Westminster, and especially those in positions of influence, are determined to treat Wales as a second-class nation when it comes to devolution?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, thank you for those questions. We are proud of the partnerships that we've built with policing partners in Wales, and we continue to work collaboratively. Of course, the key objective is to ensure that we keep Wales safe, that our police forces are delivering in terms of community safety here in Wales.

Now, what is welcome from the White Paper, and, clearly, my engagement with the policing Minister in particular, Sarah Jones MP, and indeed via my colleagues—I call them my colleagues—the police and crime commissioners, because they meet, of course, regularly with the policing Minister as well—. I'm pleased that the White Paper did note the importance of reflecting the unique Welsh landscape in this work, supported by a commitment to close working between the Home Office and Welsh Government in partnership with policing in Wales and other partners.

So, as I've said before in response to questions and in my statement, we've taken the opportunity to consider the best arrangements for Wales following that announcement that was made about the abolition of police and crime commissioners. We actually saw that as an opportunity, as you've acknowledged, and we've been working at pace with our colleagues. We've been looking at the policing principles that have been outlined, and I think you will, I'm sure, welcome the fact that, in my statement yesterday, I said that my goal is that the present Welsh Government agrees a future form of governance with the Home Office during this Senedd—time is of the essence; every day counts—and such an approach, as I said, is about building on what currently works well and strengthening the devolution settlement, but, of course, always with the sight of that longer term goal of devolving policing to Wales, as you've acknowledged.

Just a couple of key points that I want to make, because there are many questions and points that you've made. In terms of the border issues, this independent review hasn't been announced yet, and we'll look at the precise details. When I met with the policing Minister at the weekend, I said, clearly, we need to engage. We want to influence that. It's an independent review; we want to fully engage with that review process. It doesn't yet set out exactly how many forces would exist under the new framework. But I did make it absolutely clear that, absolutely, at a minimum, forces should not be merged across the border, and she certainly recognised that point very clearly. So, on the record, I think you just need to note those key points in terms of the border issues.

I think it is an opportunity for the Senedd. I mean, if we had more time, I'm sure the Equality and Social Justice Committee would want to engage with this, because, actually, this is an opportunity for us to look at the future. I'm sure we want a justice committee. We devolve justice, which is what we want, we want a justice committee; I'm sure we want a justice Minister. We've always talked of that, in our route to devolution, because this would enable the Senedd to hold the Welsh Government to account in terms of justice as we gain more powers. One of the points I would like you to acknowledge, and I'm sure you will today, to help me, to strengthen me in my discussions and negotiations with the UK Government, is to recognise that the majority of funding for policing, as you've already said, already comes from Welsh sources. That money should be spent in Wales, and powers should sit with those who are providing the funding.

So, what we need to do now is work towards a model of local police governance that reflects our unique partnership-working approach and the distinct model of local and national government in Wales. There are workshops taking place already. We are involving local government as well, which I think is important—they sit on our policing partnership board for Wales—and also involving the justice unions as well.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that this constant griping about the devolution of more powers actually damages this institution? The Welsh public wants action on devolved public services. They want action on criminal activity, and do not care which Minister is in charge. Surely, it's time to deliver, not devolve. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, can you outline what recent discussions you have had with the Welsh PCCs and UK Government Ministers about the actions they're taking to combat the rise in thefts from vehicles and rural crime in Wales? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, clearly, this is all about how we promote community safety and tackle crime in Wales. And it's important that we put it—. That's the clear context of this discussion. This is the point. It's powers for a purpose, isn't it, in terms of the outcomes for the people, businesses, citizens and communities of Wales.

I don't think you were with us, Altaf Hussain, when we actually received that all-important Thomas commission, the largest-ever examination of the justice system in Wales, Lord John Thomas taking forward that examination of our justice system and then recommending the devolution of justice to Wales—obviously, policing, probation, youth justice, all the areas that we're working on at the forefront. That is actually—. And I recall, of course, former Counsel General Mick Antoniw chairing a Cabinet sub-committee where we were looking at the detail of the Thomas commission, weren't we, looking at the progress that we were making. And it was that huge examination. Of course, many of us here were involved in that, and I'm sure you acknowledge that as well, Altaf.

But, then, of course, we also commissioned the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and that was chaired by the eminent Rowan Williams and the eminent Laura McAllister. And we received that report; we're now taking it forward. We have a democracy group looking at how we can implement that. They also recommended the devolution of policing and also the devolution of youth justice and probation. So, we have had the experts, the academics—policing themselves have done a report on the importance and the reasons why we need to progress with the devolution of policing. This is about outcomes. It's about delivering the best services. And, as I've said, the majority of funding for policing already comes from Welsh sources. And the delivery of policing in terms of prevention, support, encouragement, community safety and tackling crime—much of that is about devolved services working together in partnership, which is, of course, reflected in the policing partnership board for Wales, which I chair.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

The response of the Home Secretary to Liz Saville-Roberts was disappointing, but hardly surprising. In 2019, in a previous life, I attended a meeting of the parliamentary Labour Party, and they vehemently opposed the devolution of policing then, despite it being in their manifesto in 2017, under the title 'Extending Democracy'. Until there's a change of personnel at Westminster, it's difficult to know what this Government can do to change the mind of Labour Westminster colleagues. We could commission as many reports as we want, but to no avail.

It's worth noting that Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd is not a famous radical liberal and the Commission on Justice in Wales was not full of nationalists—or maybe separatists, as they're now called by some Members to the left of me. It wasn't. And many members of the commission were not in fact Welsh at all. They looked at the evidence and came to the conclusion, after looking at a huge body of evidence, that that was the right thing to do. And, interestingly, despite Altaf Hussain's defence of the status quo this afternoon, I have an e-mail from Lord Hunt, the Secretary of State for Wales in the early 1990s, who confirmed that he had made an agreement with Kenneth Clarke, the then Home Secretary, to transfer the policing powers to the Wales Office in 1993. And that was only blocked by the bureaucracy of Whitehall. So, if that would have happened in 1993, policing would have been devolved back in 1999 to this place—and that's worth remembering.

Despite the UK Government's clear opposition to the devolution of justice, it's crucial that the Welsh Government plays a part in the reform of policing. Because, at the moment, we are just totally forgotten. And that's seen time and time again. You cannot expect a London-based civil servant, a Birmingham-based Home Secretary and a Croydon-based policing Minister to appreciate that a 20-minute response time in rural Wales is totally misguided, unless they spend a huge amount of investment in policing in Wales. And we've seen example after example of the Welsh context being ignored by Whitehall in the last few months. We see that by the fact that you can't make an application to become a police officer with the College of Policing through the medium of Welsh. We also saw that, of the 10 universities being awarded funding to improve policing in England in Wales, not one Welsh university was granted the funding. Now, examples like this will happen time and time again unless the Welsh Government is truly embedded in the reform. So, Trefnydd, what role, therefore, will you have, will this Government have, in policing reform? And what updates will you be giving this Parliament? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys ab Owen. Thank you for recalling that really important note in history—you were very engaged, I know, in the Thomas commission—and the reference to Lord Hunt, who I recall when he was in that role, in terms of interests in Wales. I also haven't mentioned the Silk commission, which, of course, was a cross-party commission, including Labour, Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats, and also the Welsh Conservatives, who then also backed the devolution of policing. And it has always been—. The case for the devolution of policing has been made by all these distinguished people and commissions. It is about actually delivering policing that actually is relevant to Wales, relevant to the needs, the circumstances, of Wales, and that the accountability needs to be in Wales, so that we should be held to account. That's what will come as a result of policing, and the Senedd will have that responsibility as well. You're much more eloquent in actually being able to pursue that point at the moment, but I welcome the fact that you've recognised that.

I also hope that those in favour of the devolution of policing, youth justice and probation actually will help support us in these last few weeks that we have of the sixth Senedd—and I'm glad the Deputy First Minister is here with us this afternoon—because, as I've said, we seek to actually report and make progress before the end of this sixth Senedd, particularly in relation to a future form of governance for policing in Wales. We do have an opportunity with the abolition of police and crime commissioners. I'm meeting them on Friday. Last week, there was a workshop that the Home Office convened with our PCCs. I think it's also important that we talk about the workforce. I'm very glad that Unison—. I met with the justice unions last week, and Unison is now involved in those discussions for their members. We must think of the workforce. Of course, I'm very proud of the fact that Welsh Government has backed and funded our police community support officers, who are the people in our communities who make such a difference to people's lives.

Just finally, Llywydd, because many questions have been raised, the policing partnership board for Wales is very much an example of how we work in partnership together in Wales. It's a very valuable forum, and we talk and we discuss. Much of our discussion is about devolved areas: the impact of mental health and engagement with policing, housing needs, rural crime, substance misuse, health and social care. These are devolved responsibilities. Local government sits on that policing partnership board, alongside our police and crime commissioners and chief constables. That is a model that we are looking at in terms of the future governance, and I hope that the Deputy First Minister and I will be able to come forward—. But we need you to engage with us constructively to make this move.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Could I first of all thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the work that you are doing, and the work that's been going on for quite a number of years, evidence-based work? Referring to the comments that were made earlier, this isn't about more powers; it's about how to better deliver policing, democratically accountable, and in a way that integrates with all those functions that are in fact devolved, to make that policing better and more accountable to our communities.

Many years ago, I was a member of the South Wales Police Authority. That was a form of democratic local accountability. Of course, it was abolished in order to make way for the police and crime commissioners. Some of us had concerns about that, but it provided at least another democratic mandate. Of course, the sudden abolition of the police and crime commissioners, or the future abolition of police and crime commissioners—which was done without very much consultation, I think, with any devolved bodies—takes away that democratic element, and it now means that we actually have a democratic deficit. Because whereas we had input into and engagement with those police and crime commissioners, that now disappears, and what's going to replace it? Of course, the White Paper basically sets out a consultation and various proposals that can be considered around that.

We know that all the elected police and crime commissioners support the devolution of policing. The Police Federation are not against it, the justice unions are in favour of it. If you speak to most of the lawyers who engage with the police, they are also very much in support and recognise the importance of it. We have evidence galore that explains why there needs to be that particular change, and, of course, it has been long-standing Welsh policy.

Can I just say that the Home Secretary's comment seems to reflect the comments that were actually made a bit earlier about this, about being more powers? Because this isn't about control. It seems to me that one of the flaws in the Home Secretary's knee-jerk comment was that it's more about control rather than the benefit of policing. I would reflect the comment as well that it is totally inappropriate, it was totally inappropriate, for a Home Secretary to be giving that sort of knee-jerk response, when, at the very time, there is a consultation. It was certainly not a response that is evidence based and that is based on consideration of evidence.

I think there will probably be more positive constructions with the policing Minister, and so on, but I suppose my question to you really is now: what are the next steps that are going to be taken to ensure that not only the policing Minister, but the Home Secretary, are actually aware of the volume of evidence that exists that justifies that? Because making comments without knowledge of that evidence does a complete disservice to policing and accountability in our communities.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Mick Antoniw. I'm conscious of time. I am of course sharing my statement from yesterday with the Home Secretary and the policing Minister. I think that's important, because I hope it does reflect many of the points that have been made today. So, I want to assure Members of that.

But I just want to say, in terms of the democratic point, the point about accountability and governance, that when we are looking at the way forward—. And this is active now. I can say that the first consideration that we've been looking at in terms of successor arrangements to the abolition of police and crime commissioners is that it should be—and this is important for all sides of this Chamber—what best serves the interests of community safety and victims of crime, and that PCC functions that are currently exercised within Wales should remain exercised within Wales, and that revised governance arrangements should build on the existing partnership approach in Wales and preserve the strengths of the existing arrangements. Any model needs to consider the role of local and national democratic accountability; that's what you're talking about, Mick. So, I'm glad I've had the chance to just reassure you that that is our thinking.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We're out of time on this session, but I do have several other Members wishing to ask a question. So, as long as questions are in the singular and answers are succinct, I'll be able to call a few more. Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Basically, what you've reported to us today, and in all your answers, is that Westminster and the UK Labour Government are not interested in acting in the best interests of the people of Wales, by rejecting out of hand, disdainfully, the case made by experts, repeated here today, made by a devolved Government, to devolve policing. There's some kind of doublespeak going on here.

You talk about an opportunity to agree a new model of governance with the UK Government, but you know, we know, experts have told us, what that model needs to be: devolution. You talk about outcomes; absolutely. Close working, as we have now, isn't effective enough. We talk, don't we, often—? You mentioned the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We have seen plainly, in report after report, the effect of that jagged edge of justice in Wales. And this is especially highlighted by the imbalance between the responsibilities of the Welsh Government with respect to social justice on one hand and criminal justice on the other.

And the fact is, regardless of how well designed, and how well intentioned a Welsh Government social justice agenda is on paper, translating it into optimal outcomes of creating a fairer and more equal society is destined to be undermined if it has no ability to meaningfully address issues such as disproportionate incarceration rates among ethnic minority communities, the challenges faced by Welsh female prisoners in particular, institutional misogyny and racism within police forces, and the glaring—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

[Inaudible.]

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm coming to my question. And the glaring failings of the system when it comes to prevention and rehabilitation.

So, Cabinet Secretary, do you therefore agree with me that delivering your own policy agenda is only going to be made more difficult unless we see some long-overdue movement on transferring powers over policing to Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much. I think you've stated your position in response to my statement, which is a valuable contribution.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

You refer to the proposed police force mergers. I was a member of the sub-committee of the Assembly's Social Justice and Regeneration Committee, which carried out the detailed scrutiny work considering the then proposed Welsh police mergers two decades ago, which led to police mergers being aborted by a Labour Home Secretary across England and Wales. Our report also noted that cross-border partnerships must reflect operational reality.

Well, little, in reality, has changed in the context of police structure or operations since. And when I visited the north-west regional organised crime unit—a collaboration between North Wales Police and north-west England forces—they told me that evidence given to the Thomas commission was largely ignored in its report, which failed to reference the established deep-rooted joint working with neighbouring police forces across the invisible east-west crime and justice border with England. This is also missing from the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales report.

Noting that these facts are very different to the situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland, wasn't the UK Home Secretary's failure to agree with the devolution of policing to Wales therefore evidentially correct, and should we not be more concerned that police numbers have plummeted from the record high number at the end of March 2024?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, police numbers plummeted during the 14 years of the Conservative Government, in terms of those 20,000 cuts. I just want to draw your attention—. Thank you, Mark Isherwood, for your question. [Laughter.] I just want to draw your attention to my written statement, particularly just to reiterate the importance of the fact that we have a difference in laws, even though we haven't had full devolution. We have a difference in laws and working practices between Wales and England. But there is a clear link. We heard from the chief constable this week about cross-border crime and dealing with it, but I'm absolutely clear, in terms of this independent review, that, as I said yesterday, no single regional police force should operate across both sides of the Anglo-Welsh border.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

What it feels like we have before us is a complete mismatch of what is being said here with what is being said in Westminster, and, with respect, growing distrust of what you are saying—and I have the greatest of respect for you—around the devolution of policing and criminal justice. The majority of Members here in the Senedd want to see the devolution of policing and criminal justice, and yet the very, frankly, rude and disdainful response from Shabana Mahmood yesterday shows that, actually, Labour in Westminster are not intending—that's the last point we have—to devolve policing and criminal justice.

My question, really, is a simple one: could you please write on behalf of this Senedd, and in your role, to the Home Secretary, setting out the reasons and the evidence why policing and criminal justice should be devolved to Wales, and could the Senedd please see a copy of that letter and the response? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. And I have already said that I'm going to be sharing our written statement, the impact of which brings together all of the points that I've made, all of the strides we're taking to progress and to respond to the White Paper and to the abolition of police and crime commissioners.

I think this question that's been discussed this afternoon has enabled Members to give their views, which I think is very helpful in terms of responses and my representations to the UK Government. But I hope you will see that I have given you, in response to these questions, a number of commitments and examples of the way in which we are engaging. And also, look to your police and crime commissioners as well, and the role that they are playing very constructively with me in supporting me in this work, and, indeed, the Welsh Local Government Association and the justice unions. We are working together on this proposal for accountability and governance here in Wales for policing.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

The belief that bigger and bigger organisations are better, I always find strange. It's believed by many despite all the evidence to the contrary. In policing, think the Metropolitan Police and Police Scotland. When you think of good police forces, they are the last that come to mind.

As fans of 1940s and 1950s crime fiction will know, the idea of calling in support from Scotland Yard for major crimes was the norm. Having different police forces for different areas of policing, for example, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, highway patrols and county sheriffs in the USA, is usual across the world. Whilst joining the Welsh police forces into one will be seen by some here as another step towards independence, will it benefit people living in Wales?

What discussion has the Welsh Government had, or is it going to have, regarding greater devolution of policing to area commanders to police the people living in their areas, and accountability to local people via their local councillors?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Mike Hedges. Those are all really important points that we will be making in terms of our response to the independent review. And key points I think you've heard already are that we are now working very closely with local government, with our colleagues in the Welsh Local Government Association, as well as our police and crime commissioners, and are looking at our accountability and governance model for policing in Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

It's only a few short months since 11 of your own Labour backbenchers here in the Senedd felt compelled to write to Keir Starmer saying, and I quote:

'Wales needs and deserves to be treated as an equal part of the UK and the UK Government has a responsibility to act to deliver this equality.'

Given that policing is devolved to Scotland, to Northern Ireland, to London, to Manchester even, but is still being denied to Wales, do you believe that Labour is treating Wales equally?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I think I've probably answered all the questions fully this afternoon about my commitment, before the end of this Senedd, to make progress on the devolution journey. That's what we need to do: to make progress on the devolution journey. Clearly, youth justice and probation were in the UK Government manifesto, so that's been our priority. But as this has come forward now as an opportunity with the abolition of police and crime commissioners, I think I've given you my assurance that that's what we are seeking to do, to have a model that can take us on the devolutionary steps towards having responsibility for policing in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the 90-second statements, and the first this afternoon is from Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. The year is 1936, King Edward VIII has abdicated the throne, the Hoover dam was finally completed and a pint cost just 5p. But another important moment also took place this year: the formation of the Wales Federation of Young Farmers Clubs, Clwb Ffermwyr Ifanc Cymru.

Today, as Wales YFC celebrates its ninetieth anniversary, it supports nearly 6,000 members across Wales, spanning 12 counties and 138 clubs. Young people aged between 10 and 28 give more than 1.4 million hours to their clubs, counties and communities through learning, development, competition and volunteering. It really is a remarkable organisation, led by its members for its members.

A recent impact report showed just how powerful that support is. Eighty-eight per cent of members say that they have increased their skills and employability by trying something new, and 82 per cent rated the support they received in preparing for education and employment as 'exceptional' or 'strong'.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

More than 70 per cent of members speak Welsh. Young farmers clubs have allowed members to speak and compete in their mother tongue, which has seen the Welsh language and the culture of Wales growing and flourishing through to the next generation.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

As a former member and chairman of Pembrokeshire YFC—I'm proudly wearing my Wales YFC tie today—I've seen first hand the extraordinary work of the YFC movement. It builds confidence, develops skills, strengthens communities, and genuinely changes lives for the better. If you could bottle the magic of YFC and sell it, you’d be a very rich person indeed, such is its positive impact on young people across Wales. So, here’s to the next 90 years of this incredible contribution that the young farmers clubs of Wales make to our rural way of life.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Happy birthday, YFC Wales.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm proud to mark the seventieth anniversary of Ysgol Glan Clwyd in St Asaph. It marks a special place in the history of education. The school was founded in 1956 as the first ever Welsh-medium secondary school in Wales.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Ysgol Glan Clwyd was founded at a time when many believed success could only be achieved through the medium of English. But thanks to the determination of its early supporters, generations of young people have since been educated in Welsh, confident in both their language and identity. Today, the school serves its community with over 100 members of staff and modern facilities following significant redevelopment in recent years. Alongside the fantastic Welsh and music departments, the school offers an outstanding Welsh immersion scheme, which enables pupils from non-Welsh-speaking backgrounds to become fluent Welsh speakers and fully participate in the school’s activities. Through an introductory course in year 6 and specialist teaching in years 7 and 8, pupils are supported to study confidently through the medium of Welsh by year 9.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

This anniversary is a celebration of the school's history, but also a statement of confidence in the future of Welsh-medium education. I congratulate the pupils, staff and the school community on this milestone, and I wish them every success for the decades to come. I hope that the school can continue to serve as a model for Welsh-medium education in the future.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Dignity Action Day, which takes place on 1 February, is an event that reminds us of the importance of treating individuals who are receiving care services with the utmost respect. This is about promoting dignity and respect for individuals. Sunday serves as a powerful reminder of the vital role that not only care professionals but all of us can play in ensuring that everyone is treated with care, compassion and respect. The definition of dignity is the state or quality of being worthy of honour and respect. We know that we need to take concrete steps to give those receiving care better dignity and to engage in dialogue to make sure that people are listened to and to ensure that there are policies and training in place. It is crucial that we all play our part in ensuring that those who are receiving care services are treated with the dignity they deserve. But, with respect to all of us, it is also about us ensuring dignity for everyone we know, meet and work with and for. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Next, we have a motion to elect a Member to a committee. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Helen's Law

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, Helen's law. I call on Cefin Campbell to move the motion.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. The subject of today's Member debate is Helen's law part 2, which is about stopping the desecration of bodies by making it an offence. The reason I'm bringing this debate forward is to address a clear and continuing gap in our criminal justice system, a gap that causes profound and lasting harm to families affected by the most serious of crimes.

Helen's law, formally the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Act 2020, requires the Parole Board to consider whether a convicted murderer has disclosed the location of their victim's body, or whether a sex offender has identified the victims of their crimes, when deciding on early release. It was introduced in recognition of a simple but powerful truth: that withholding information about a victim is not a neutral act, but a continuing form of harm.

However, while Helen's law marks an important step forward, it does not address what happens when a perpetrator deliberately conceals, destroys or desecrates a victim's body, acts that inflict a distinct and enduring trauma for families. This debate is about that unresolved injustice. I want to acknowledge the families, friends and loved ones whose lives have been permanently shaped by these failures in law.

Helen's law exists because of the determination of Helen McCourt's mother, Marie McCourt, who fought tirelessly to ensure that withholding information about a victim is recognised in law as an ongoing harm, not a single act confined to the past. Turning personal loss into sustained advocacy takes extraordinary resilience, particularly when navigating a justice system that can feel slow, procedural and, at times, cold to the human cost of crime.

Here, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to briefly acknowledge Lesley Rees, the sister of the late Michael O'Leary, who first raised this issue with me, and also his widow, Sian. Both of them are sitting in the gallery this afternoon.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

May I thank you, Lesley and Sian, for coming here this afternoon to support this debate? I know that this is very difficult for you, but I do want to thank you for your determination with the campaign that you have been running in memory of your husband and your brother. Lesley has given me this, a heart made from the material of a lounger that Mike loved to lie on.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I also spoke yesterday with Coral, the mother of the late April Jones, who has allowed me, along with Lesley and Sian, to use their statements in this debate today, along with other families across Wales and the wider UK who continue to advocate for change. As this matter is considered today, it's essential that the experiences of these families do not sit at the margins of this discussion, but actively shape how the law develops.

Helen's law is named after Helen McCourt, a 22-year-old young woman from Merseyside who was abducted, raped and murdered in 1988 while walking home from work. Despite being convicted of her murder, Helen's killer has never disclosed where her body was hidden. More than three decades later, Helen's remains have never been recovered. For Helen's mother, Marie McCourt, this has meant a lifetime of uncertainty and pain. No funeral, no grave and no place to grieve. She has described living in a permanent state of limbo, unable to lay her daughter to rest or achieve even the most basic sense of closure. It was this ongoing harm, not confined to the moment of the murder, but repeated every day, that the truth is withheld, that led Marie McCourt to campaign for change.

Helen's law was introduced to ensure that this deliberate silence is treated as a serious and relevant factor in parole decisions. While it does not impose an automatic ban on release, it makes clear that non-disclosure must weigh heavily against an offender. As a result of this change, several parole applications have already been refused, reflecting a growing recognition that justice does not end at conviction alone.

However, Helen's case also exposes a further injustice. While the law now recognises the harm caused by withholding information, it does not recognise the deliberate destruction, concealment or desecration of a body as a distinct offence, even though the impact on families is profound and lifelong. Helen's law part 2 seeks to address this gap, carrying forward her legacy by ensuring that what happens to a victim's body after death is recognised in law as a matter of dignity, accountability and humanity.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Shockingly, the UK remains among the very few jurisdictions in the world with no specific offence of corpse desecration. Prosecutors are forced to rely on outdated common law offences, such as preventing a burial or obstructing a coroner—laws that are inconsistently applied and poorly suited to modern homicide cases.

Advances in forensic science have changed criminal behaviour. As convictions without a body have become more common, perpetrators increasingly resort to extreme and calculated acts, such as burning, dissolving or dismembering remains, in the belief that they can evade justice. Yet these acts are rarely acknowledged in charges or sentences. Because the law doesn’t specifically criminalise desecration, there is currently no clear deterrent to prevent these acts. Helen’s law part 2 would close this gap.

If I can come to the victim statements from April Jones's mother and Lesley, Mike O'Leary's sister. This is from Coral Jones, the mother of April Jones from Machynlleth. April, we will all remember, was five years old when she was abducted and murdered in 2012. Her killer is serving a whole-life sentence, but for Coral, the sentence did not bring an end to her suffering. As she said, 'My little girl is still missing in the eyes of the law'. The funeral took place, but the coffin was almost empty. Inside were only a few small pieces of bone and some personal items that Coral placed there herself. There was no body to lay to rest, no real goodbye.

Coral has spoken about avoiding her daughter's grave, because she knows April is not truly there. Instead, she has created a garden at home, a place where she can feel close to her child, because the law cannot give her that peace. She lives every day with the knowledge of what was done to her daughter's body after death, knowledge that continues to haunt her. It shapes her grief and damages her health.

The offences that her daughter's killer was convicted of do not reflect the true horror of what he did. Coral conveyed to me last night that she supports the creation of a new offence of desecrating a body, because while her daughter's killer will never be released, others will be. Families should not be forced to live with this added cruelty, unrecognised and unnamed in law. Coral's words are simple and devastating: 'I still want to put April to rest properly'.

And now to the words of Lesley, as I said, who is sitting in the gallery. She first brought this issue to my office many months ago and has been a tireless advocate for her family and others. I'm grateful to her for allowing me to share her story today. Mike O'Leary, who I knew as a kind and colourful character, full of life, was murdered in a planned deliberate attack six years ago yesterday, as it happens. His killer lured him to a remote location, caused his death and took steps to conceal the body. As Lesley says, 'All we have at the grave is the 6 cm of Mike's lower intestine that was found at the murderer's property. There was no proper burial, no way to say goodbye and no closure.'

I've met Lesley on many occasions and she's spoken about how this continues to affect the family every day. They live with the severe trauma, anxiety and grief. Sleep is disrupted, daily life is overshadowed by memories of what happened, and the emotional burden is a constant. The mental health impact is profound and ongoing. But as the law does not recognise the deliberate destruction and desecration of a body, it leaves the suffering it causes invisible to the system. And Lesley also conveys the support of Helen's law part 2.

There's clear evidence that there is a gap in the law, so I urge everyone who is going to contribute to this debate today to bear that in mind—that we need to close that gap in the law to stop the suffering of so many families. For now, diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cefin, for bringing this debate to the Senedd today. We have a funny job, don't we, as Senedd Members, often advocating on behalf of our constituents, and sometimes we struggle to properly convey, I think, the emotion and the difficulty in some of the issues that we raise. But that speech was truly a highlight, I think, for me, of this Senedd term, and I think anybody that was in the Chamber will struggle to forget that speech, so thank you for bringing it to the Senedd today, and thank you for bringing this motion to the Senedd today. I want to place on record my support and my party's support for Helen's law and the calls that you've made for its further development.

At its heart, this issue is not only about criminal justice procedure, but, as Cefin said, about humanity, dignity and the enduring pain experienced by victims' families. Helen's law was introduced because the existing system failed to recognise a profound injustice: that offenders could withhold vital information about the whereabouts of a victim's remains, yet still be considered for parole, as though that silence carried no consequence. For families like Helen McCourt's, the refusal to disclose the location of a loved one's body is not a single act of cruelty confined to the past, it is a continuing harm. It denies families the most basic human need: the ability to grieve properly, to lay their loved one to rest and to find some measure of peace.

Now, the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information about Victims) Act 2020 was an important step forward. By requiring the parole board to consider non-disclosure, it sent a clear message that co-operation matters, and that justice doesn't end at conviction alone. However, as campaigners and families have consistently told us, that doesn't necessarily go far enough, and that's why calls for ‘Helen's Law Part 2: Stop the Desecration’ deserve serious consideration. The absence of a specific offence of desecrating a body and the lack of clear sentencing consequences for concealing remains, represent gaps in our justice framework, and those gaps leave families feeling that the law does not fully recognise the gravity of what has been done to their loved ones.

We only need to look to Northern Ireland to see that reform is possible. Through Charlotte's law, the concealment of remains is treated as a statutory aggravating factor. Parole authorities are required to consider non-disclosure and incentives are created to encourage co-operation. These measures demonstrate that the law can evolve in a way that is both practical and compassionate. And while many of these powers sit at a UK level, that does not absolve us as a Parliament here in Wales of responsibility to Wales as a clear voice in advocating for reforms that should reflect our values, values of dignity, fairness and respect for victims and their families.

So, by supporting this motion today, we're sending a message that silence shouldn't be rewarded, that cruelty shouldn't be ignored, and that victims' families deserve better from the justice system. I therefore urge the Welsh Government and the Senedd to work collaboratively with the UK Government to explore equivalent legislative reforms and to ensure that the pursuit of justice in Wales is one that places humanity and compassion at its core. Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you, Cefin, for bringing forward this Member debate on Helen's law, which I am pleased to support. I absolutely agree with Tom—Cefin, your opening speech was incredibly powerful. Thank you to Coral and Lesley for allowing you to read their statements, which really brings home the heartbreak and the suffering they will always have.

I must admit, when Cefin first approached me around this debate, I knew very little about this legislation, and the more I have read and learned about it, the more I passionately believe it is necessary to ensure justice in this area is strengthened. I pay tribute to Marie McCourt and so many others who've campaigned to ensure families are able to grieve and bury their loved ones. Out of unspeakable grief, they have ensured that meaningful change has been brought forward. It is right that non-disclosure of a victim's body is a mandatory factor when an offender is being assessed as to what risk he or she is to the public.

I would like to focus my contribution today on point 4 of the debate on Charlotte's law, which was introduced in Northern Ireland. It was brought forward to ensure convicted murderers who refused to disclose the location of their victim's remains stay in prison longer, and it would have an impact on consideration of any parole request. Whilst of course, as Tom has said, criminal law is a reserved matter, Charlotte's law does demonstrate what we could do here in Wales so that we are able to promote dignity and justice for victims and their families in our own constituencies.

The family of Charlotte Murray have supported the proposals in Northern Ireland, believing it shifts the focus towards the rights of a victim's family. Withholding information on the whereabouts of a victim's body by the offender is sickening and beyond cruel. A murderer should be held accountable with longer prison sentences, and it should have an impact on parole considerations. There are many who believe a killer should not be released from prison unless they disclose where their victim's body is. They are preventing a burial—somewhere where family members can go and grieve. This is not a political issue, and I'm sure this Chamber unites in wanting the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to see what further legislative changes can be brought forward, and I hope the Counsel General, in her speech, will reaffirm her support to do just that.

'Helen's Law Part 2: Stop the Desecration' looks to introduce criminal offences, and I believe this reflects a family's continuing pain and grief that they must endure for the rest of their lives. So, thank you for the opportunity to contribute today on this very important issue, one that many of us, fortunately, have never had to consider, but we stand with the families, such as the McCourts, the Murrays, and Michael O'Leary's and April Jones's family here in Wales, and many others who sadly endure a life sentence, in calling for these two new criminal offences to be introduced. Diolch.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I'm very grateful to Cefin for raising this issue, and I'm also grateful to Lesley and Sian. It's nice to see that there is cross-party support on this issue.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

'Dignity' is a word we use often in public life. We talk about the dignity of a safe home, of decent work, of compassionate healthcare. But I believe there is something even more fundamental than all of these: the dignity a person is owed in death, and the dignity every family deserves when laying their loved ones to rest. Justice must always place victims and families at its heart, yet our current system contains a cruel contradiction. Someone who commits a murder can go on to deepen that harm by destroying or concealing a body, denying a family the chance to bury their loved one. When remains are withheld or destroyed, families are denied the most basic human need: a place to mourn, to remember and to begin the incredibly painful journey towards some form of peace. This is not a single act of harm; as we've heard, this is an ongoing one, and we know this, sadly, all too well here in Wales.

I was living not too far away from Machynlleth when five-year-old April Jones was abducted and murdered. I recall the pink ribbons and the pink balloons that there were in Bryn y Gog in Machynlleth, which was incredibly moving to see and devastated the entire nation. Her family not only suffered unimaginable loss, but had the added cruelty of knowing that her remains were concealed and desecrated. Withholding a body is not passive, it is a deliberate act of control. It degrades the deceased and inflicts continuing suffering on those left behind. The UK Law Commission has stated plainly that the criminal law, as it stands, does not adequately deal with the desecration of a corpse. Internationally, many countries, we know, already treat the desecration of a body as a serious crime in its own right. We've heard about Northern Ireland. Germany's criminal code explicitly outlaws corpse desecration. And in the United States, many jurisdictions treat grave or body desecration as a serious crime, carrying substantial prison sentences. We shouldn't be comfortable lagging behind jurisdictions that recognised decades ago—which we're only now acknowledging—that destroying a body is not merely evidence tampering, but a profound violation of human dignity deserving its own criminal sanction.

To finish, I come back to that word 'dignity'—'urddas' yn Gymraeg. I support this motion and I'm urging the Welsh Government to act to make formal representations to the Law Commission, to learn from Northern Ireland's experience and to ensure that Welsh voices are clearly heard in the call for reform. We owe it to Coral and Lesley, we owe it to families who have shown extraordinary courage in the face of unimaginable pain. We owe it to the nation to ensure that Wales stands firmly on the side of justice, decency and the fundamental dignity that every person deserves in life and in death. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Cefin Campbell, for bringing this debate today. Like everybody here, I want to recognise Marie McCourt for her sheer determination in pursuing the right to justice for all families who find themselves in need of justice in the name of their loved ones. It was, as has been mentioned, pursued in Northern Ireland, following the deaths of Charlotte Murray and Lisa Dorrian, who were murdered and no bodies have yet been found. Following the murder of Helen in 1988, Marie set about to change the law so that, when a prisoner has been convicted, as has been mentioned already today, of a 'no-body murder'—. I mean, what a term; that you have to even use it is just horrendous. They can come before a parole board before that law, and that disclosure of information wasn't accounted for beforehand—. So, having that now as a stand-alone offence in and of itself makes a difference to those who are left behind.

We know that no-body murders are on the increase. There were 54 homicide convictions in 2020, but there are now 73 since the records began in 2007-08. That's 73 families and friends of those individuals who have been left behind. They've been deprived and bereft of any opportunity to say goodbye, and those testimonies today summed that up. And they can't start any closure that could begin some healing. The right for families and prosecutors to have this recognised has been initiated by Helen's law. But we absolutely have to give the right to prosecutors and the families to take on board the significance of the desecration of an individual. And Dr Imogen Jones, associate professor at the University of Leeds, has said, and she's right, that a great many people share the sentiment that it is a serious wrong to behave with gross disrespect towards deceased bodies, and also that the English and Welsh criminal law is currently incapable of dealing with corpse desecration.

So, that's what's being called for, and that, exactly, is what I will support. We know there have been high-profile cases where the desecration of a corpse has been used to hide or destroy a body and to avoid any form of prosecution or admission of guilt. And there are two factors at play there. Part 2 of Helen's law deals specifically with this. There is a real danger that, as crime detection methods advance, so will the desecration of victims increase and the suffering of families be prolonged.

We know that, currently, two women every single week lose their lives as a consequence of violence against women. We know that the UK Government has described this as a national emergency. I think it's time now to put these two factors together and to legislate and recognise that desecration of a body or a corpse does indeed require a change in law. Murderers are using this as their final act of control. They're not only using that control over the individual who they have murdered and whose body they have desecrated, but it's the ultimate act of control over the families that they leave behind. By supporting this law, you can at least put in some element of control for those who are left behind to exercise over those perpetrators that have treated them and their loved ones so badly.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Cefin Campbell, on behalf of so many families, has made the case so powerfully and with great care and sensitivity. I just want to add a few points about why Helen's law part 2 matters morally and practically. I'll also begin close to home, in Carmarthenshire. We all remember the case of Michael O'Leary of Nantgaredig, to which Cefin and others have already referred. I mention Michael again here because his case captures a truth that families live with every day: the harm does not end with the death of an innocent victim; the deliberate destruction or concealment of a body is a further act of violence against the victim's dignity and against the loved ones left behind.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

And all our hearts still bleed as we remember Michael, and our love and sympathy for Sian and Lesley are very sincere and have no end.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

So, why do we need this law? Firstly, this is a distinct and horrible wrong, and the law should name it clearly. Murder is the ultimate crime, but in many cases what follows is a separate decision, a second phase, planned and purposeful, designed to frustrate justice and to deny a family the most basic human act—to lay their loved one to rest. When a law cannot properly describe that wrong, it fails to recognise part of what the family has endured.

Second, the current legal position is uneven in practice. On paper, there are offences that may be available—obstructing a coroner, preventing lawful and decent burial, perverting the course of justice, and a handful of narrow provisions. But in reality it looks like a patchwork, different routes used in different ways and sometimes not used at all. Families are left feeling the system has spoken about the death, but not fully acknowledged the added harm inflicted afterwards. A clear, modern offence would bring consistency, and it would allow courts to recognise plainly the extra cruelty involved.

Thirdly, this is about deterrence, changing the incentives. As forensic science improves, some offenders become more forensically aware and take further steps to obstruct an investigation. That post-death abuse is rarely accidental; it is purposeful behaviour done to reduce the risk of detection and conviction. The law should reverse that logic by making it unambiguous that these actions increase culpability and carry meaningful additional consequences. It's also about the integrity of evidence. The victim's body can be a source of truth, and attempts to destroy it are attempts to silence it. But at the heart of this is dignity and what we owe one another as human beings. Across cultures and faiths, the instinct is the same. The dead should be treated with respect and the living should be able to grieve with some measure of peace. When a body is hidden or destroyed, families are robbed of the rituals that help them survive loss. Seeing a loved one, saying goodbye, laying them to rest: that absence does not simply fade with time; it can become an open wound, because the final act of care and farewell has been taken from them.

We should be honest, as Joyce Watson has said, about the power dynamic here, because denying a body can be a way for an offender to retain control, sometimes for decades, by deciding whether a family ever gets closure and whether they can stop imagining the worst. So, supporting Helen's law part 2 means ensuring the law matches the moral reality that families have lived with for too long, that what happens to a body after death matters, that it causes profound additional harm, and that it should be recognised and punished consistently. I urge the Welsh Government to use its voice clearly and persistently with the UK Government to bring forward legislation that closes this gap. If we can agree on anything in this Chamber, it should be this: in a civilised society, the dead and the departed still matter, and families deserve better than unanswered questions.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much, Members of the Senedd, for the opportunity to speak in this very important debate today, which has been brought forward by Cefin Campbell. Cefin has raised awareness of this serious issue and supported his constituents who are dedicated to securing change, and I want to sincerely pay tribute to everyone involved in bringing forward this very difficult topic for consideration today, because I fully understand how upsetting this subject matter is to air in public.

And, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd particularly like to commend the families for their determination in this heart-breaking matter. I had the real privilege of meeting Mrs Lesley Rees last October, when Cefin introduced her to me. Mrs Rees explained the devastating impact arising from the murder of her brother, whose body has never been found. This, of course, has created continual and lasting trauma for all of Michael's family. As we've heard, Mrs Rees travelled to London to meet with the victims Minister, Alex Davies-Jones MP, and explain the need for a review of laws relating to murder. As Cefin said, Helen's law part 1 was prompted by the case of Helen McCourt, whose killer never disclosed where he hid her body. Helen's law part 1 is already in place under the provisions of the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Act 2020. This Act requires the parole board to consider a prisoner's failure to disclose information about their victim when making public protection decisions. It seeks to address the severe, ongoing distress experienced by families when their loved ones' bodies are not recovered, and the sentencing framework recognises a range of aggravating factors that can increase the seriousness of an offence and the minimum term that must be served.

As everyone who has spoken today has pointed out, there's no separate criminal offence that relates to the desecration or non-disclosure of a murdered victim's body. The campaign to bring forward a Helen's law part 2 aims to correct this position, and I understand that the victims Minister, Alex Davies-Jones MP, was very supportive when she met Mrs Rees. The Minister confirms there is to be a review of law in this area led by the Law Commission, and victims' families will be involved throughout the process, including before it goes to consultation, because the Welsh Government believes that it is vital that the voices of victims' families remain central to any forthcoming proposals to change the law. For too long, these families have felt that the justice system recognises the crime, but not the continuing cruelty inflicted through silence and concealment. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, this work has not yet commenced.

The Law Commission has identified many gaps in criminal law that require reform, and these include some of the most abhorrent practices that murderers may commit against their victims, as well as the non-disclosure of a victim's body. So, I would urge all those who have an interest in these matters to engage with the Law Commission when they take forward their consultation on these proposals. As Lesley Griffiths said, we also note that a consultation on this issue concluded in Northern Ireland in 2024, but as yet no legislation has been introduced into the Northern Ireland Assembly. We are, as the Welsh Government, however, supportive of the aims of the consultation and we are keeping a close eye on developments there too. However, there are limitations on the ability of the Welsh Government to influence this work and, indeed, any emerging law, because criminal law is a reserved function of the UK Government. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, that does not in any way limit our moral responsibility to stand with victims' families, to advocate for change and to express clearly that the current gap in the law is unacceptable. Because, Members, this debate is not about politics; it's about compassion and it is about fairness. It is about ensuring that the justice system recognises not just the crime but also the lasting trauma caused to families unable to lay their loved ones to rest.

So, today, we add our voice to those of the many families who have tirelessly campaigned for change, and I'm sure that Members of the Senedd will want to join me in demonstrating their commitment to supporting the families of these victims of such heinous crimes. So, Dirprwy Lywydd, should this motion pass, and I confidently expect it will, I will be very pleased indeed to write to Alex Davies-Jones MP to ensure that she is fully aware of the Senedd's unanimous support. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on Cefin Campbell to reply to the debate.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I thank everyone who has contributed this afternoon in such a powerful way in a debate that has been difficult for us all?

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you all for your powerful contributions, each and every one of you, in what has been a difficult debate, but one that has been so important as well. And it shows the strength of this place when we come together with one voice, when we share that moral responsibility together, irrespective of party allegiances, because there are some things even more important than that, and that is support for victims and the support for the principle of Helen's law part 2.

Now, many of you in your contributions have alluded to the fact that other jurisdictions across the world, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, parts of the United States, already have specific offences covering the desecration of a body. And we've heard Lesley Griffiths talk about Charlotte's law in Northern Ireland as well. Now, I understand that the Law Commission has announced that it will carry out research into this area, but it seems to me that it's going to be late this year or the beginning of next year, which means another 12 months of waiting for these families. So, I'm really glad to hear, Cabinet Secretary, that you are willing to write on behalf of the Senedd, if we pass this motion today, to show our unified support for this law.

Because, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, what we've discussed today is not really about abstract law or policy; it's the daily reality for parents, siblings and loved ones, who wake each morning knowing that the person they love is still missing, not because the truth is unknown but because it's been deliberately withheld. Families describe this as a pain that never ends, and we've heard words being used by the contributors today about open wounds, suffering, dignity after death, humanity, closure. That's the pain that never ends, and denying them the truth is not an act of silence; it's an ongoing harm that prevents them from laying their loved ones to rest. So, Helen's law part 2 presents a real opportunity to close a long-standing gap in the law. It would ensure that the deliberate desecration of a body is properly recognised as a criminal offence. The Law Commission is due to review this area, but families cannot wait. By supporting this motion in the Senedd today, we can send a clear message that there is political will for reform and demonstrate the urgency and importance of this law to Westminster.

And I'm finishing on this point. On behalf of the families of April Jones, Mike O'Leary, Helen McCourt and many others, I urge colleagues across all parties to use their voice to ensure that legislation is prioritised and brought forward without delay. This is a chance to act collectively to give families the justice and the peace they deserve. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Transport connectivity

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on transport connectivity. I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion before us today in the name of Paul Davies. Good transport connectivity is not a luxury, but a foundation of economic prosperity. It underpins our ability to attract investment, support businesses, create jobs and connect people to opportunity. Yet, under Labour for 27 years, propped up by Plaid Cymru, Wales has been systematically and literally slowed down.

Across Wales, motorists, businesses and communities are paying the price for a Welsh Labour Government that has adopted an increasingly anti-motorist and anti-infrastructure agenda. We've seen the default 20 mph speed limits imposed against huge public opposition, and the largest petition that this Senedd has ever seen; the vital M4 relief road scrapped after £150 million of taxpayers' money had already been spent; road projects frozen; infrastructure left to crumble. And the result: Wales has the lowest wages in Britain, lagging productivity, and road networks that are no longer fit for a modern economy. That is why this motion before us today, Deputy Presiding Officer, is so important.

To understand the current state of transport connectivity in Wales, we must look beyond the potholes and the timetables. We must look at the underlying economic philosophy, or lack thereof, in the Labour and Plaid Cymru ranks, because infrastructure is not merely a budgetary line item; it's a fundamental expression of a Government's social contract with its citizens. It's the physical manifestation of the state's duty to provide the conditions for flourishment. Currently, that contract has been rewritten in a way that risks economic damage here in Wales. The truth is, capital is mobile; it goes where the friction is lowest. By creating a high-friction transport environment, Wales is signalling that it values ideological purity over market integration.

We all know, and we talk about, the brain drain that we see here in Wales, and we see it amongst our most ambitious workers, who move away to where movement is still treated as a virtue. A Government that cannot move its people is a Government that cannot progress its economy. We need to move away from a philosophy of restriction and return to a philosophy of enabling. The fact is, unemployment has risen every month since Labour has come into power. Labour has always left office with unemployment higher than when they came into office, and unfortunately, if you think Labour are bad, Plaid Cymru are even worse.

We know that the right and compassionate thing to do is to create an environment and have an infrastructure that enables people to get on, to access great jobs, and to remove the unnecessary friction to investment. It's time to stop treating growth as a dirty word and start treating transport as the enabler it has been in the modern age. And the thing that really encapsulates this economic philosophy that Labour and Plaid Cymru tried to adopt, this anti-economic growth philosophy, was the decision to scrap the M4 relief road. Six years ago, Labour scrapped this project despite overwhelming evidence that its economic benefits would outweigh the costs by 2:1. The M4 around Newport remains one of the most congested stretches of motorway in the UK, ranked amongst the worst in Europe. Hauliers, commuters and businesses are stuck in daily gridlock, while Labour and Plaid voted down a Conservative motion, just last year, calling for this vital project to be delivered. That is not leadership; it's economic negligence.

We also called for upgrades to the A55, the backbone of north Wales. Chronic congestion and underinvestment are holding back tourism, trade and growth across the region. A modern economy cannot rely on a road network that has been allowed to stagnate for decades. Similarly, the case for dualling the A40 in Pembrokeshire has been clear since the 1950s. A single-carriageway arterial route has held back economic development and increased risks for road users. Investment here would unlock growth, boost tourism, and finally give Pembrokeshire the infrastructure it deserves.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Would you mind taking an intervention?

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Certainly.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

You don't live in Pembrokeshire, you don't drive on the road, and maybe you don't know quite what you're talking about. So, what I'm going to say is this: before the massive investment that has recently happened on the road to Pembrokeshire, I would have supported, and always did, the duelling of that section of road; since we've already spent multi-million pounds on improvements on that road—and I do travel on it twice a week, as do others here, I'm sure—I understand that there is no need now to re-spend. And I'd like to know where you're getting it from, these multi-million pounds that you would require to carry on doing something that's already been done.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, thank you for the speech, Joyce. Maybe it would be worth talking to your colleague Alun Davies, who sings proudly of the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road and the difference it has made to his constituency there. I'm sure your constituents, and Paul Davies and Sam Kurtz's constituents down in Pembrokeshire, would be pleased to see investment on the A40.

We also need to talk about the Menai crossing. Communities on Ynys Môn and across the Menai straits have endured years of disruption, delay and uncertainty due to Labour's failure to properly manage critical infrastructure. What should have been routine maintenance has turned into a five-year saga, damaging local businesses, tourism and daily lives. That is why we're calling for the delivery of a third Menai crossing to provide resilience, reliability and long-term connectivity.

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, this motion calls on the Welsh Government to unfreeze all road projects. Under this stale Welsh Government, nearly every major road-building project in Wales has been scrapped. Major infrastructure continues to be blocked, delayed or quietly abandoned. And we can see from the Plaid Cymru amendment to this debate that they remain fixated on arguing about constitutional arrangements and grabbing more powers. Unlike them, the Welsh Conservatives remain focused on delivering for the people of Wales.

The Welsh Conservatives are clear. We are pro-motorist, pro-business and pro-growth. We believe in building the infrastructure Wales needs to compete, to prosper and to thrive. This motion sets out a credible, ambitious and practical plan to get Wales moving again. I urge all Members across the Chamber to support it. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be de-selected. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I move amendment, Dirprwy Lywydd, thank you very much.

I've always welcomed efforts to make travel more affordable and more accessible, however, let's be honest, without fair funding, Wales is being held back. Following the last general election, we had a pledge from the new Labour Government in Westminster, saying that they would open new opportunities for investment. So far, we haven't seen that being realised in Wales.

Only last week, my Plaid Cymru colleague in Westminster asked why Wales is not receiving its rightful share of the funding for the Northern Powerhouse Rail project. The answer? That heavy rail projects are classed as England and Wales projects, even when not a single inch of track is in Wales. The Secretary of State for Wales then pointed to projects such as Cardiff Central station and the south Wales main line in her response. But what she didn't mention is that Welsh Government match funding allowed those to happen. So, we only get the money that we’re owed if we pay extra in. Money that should go to schools, to the NHS and to improve housing for the people of Wales is being used to fill those gaps created by Westminster.

Even funding that could be used for our roads is being diverted to pay for structural unfairness. An unfairness that even the UK Secretary of State has called 'unreasonable'. Please remember also that the former First Minister, who is now the Cabinet Secretary for finance, had once considered taking legal action over this. So, what happened to those commitments?

It's ironic to hear allegations that Wales doesn't end at the border, when that's exactly what happens when it comes to funding. No other country would expect to pay for rail in another country, apart from Wales. Today, more than £3 billion-worth of rail improvement projects in Wales are waiting for funding assurance. That raises the serious question about fairness and transparency. Let's be clear, the Conservatives placed Wales in the England and Wales project system in the first place, and deprived us of millions—if not billions—of funding. So, they don't have the right today to preach.

The people of Wales deserve a transport system that works for us. This Senedd has already voted unanimously for fair funding for Wales, and it's time to do so again. Only one party has stood consistently for fair funding, and that's Plaid Cymru. We will continue to fight for consequentials for HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail, and the devolution of rail infrastructure, in order to put an end to decades of underinvestment. This is not a technical failure, it's a political choice, and while Westminster chooses England, Plaid Cymru chooses Wales. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to formally move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Moved.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Good, safe and connected transport by road, rail or bus is essential. However, the Conservatives must acknowledge the harm caused to our road infrastructure and the building of new highways by UK Conservative Government cuts to public funding for councils and the Welsh Government. Leaving the EU without replacing structural funds has also had a significant impact. European structural funds were used to pay for half of the £30 million A55 Abergwyngregyn project and to support the £139 million A487 Caernarfon bypass.

There is no mention in this motion of investing in our existing highway infrastructure of roads, pavements and bridges that are deteriorating due to underfunding, climate change impacts, water management and drainage issues. The Welsh Government's major asset renewal programme has only recently restarted following a change of UK Government. Under Labour, Wales is £1.6 billion better off. Under the Conservatives' trajectory, it would have been £6 billion worse off, with councils and capital projects already on their knees.

I'm relieved that the A494 Dee bridge renewal project, a key gateway to Wales, which has been deteriorating rapidly, is finally progressing. I'm also pleased that both the strategic road network, managed by the Welsh Government, and the local road network, managed by councils, have received significant additional funding this year and in next year's budget. This will support proper planning of the highway asset management programme, prioritising resurfacing and reducing reactive pothole repairs. Councils are now starting to clear a maintenance backlog after 14 years of austerity, improving 627 km of road surfaces and filling over 200,000 potholes, supported by a £25 million boost to the strategic road network and a £120 million local authority borrowing initiative.

I understand the 20 mph limit was first proposed in the previous Senedd by a Conservative, with wide Conservative support, and later implemented in this Senedd. As Flintshire cabinet member for highways, I received many requests from residents and councillors for 20 mph limits, particularly as they were being introduced in England just over the border in Chester. I recall one case in Saltney, where a child was seriously injured due to speeding in a residential area. Speeding was also one of the main issues raised at the community council meetings I attended. We tried other measures, including flashing signs, verge gates and pedestrian crossings to signal residential areas rather than just through roads, but they made little difference. I did raise concerns about 20 mph being a default change, as local authorities need clear and defensible legislation when applying speed limits, so that councillors and residents can understand why some roads differ from others. We implemented a speed limit review as a council, and it took five years to do that. So, it can take a long time.

Before being elected to the Senedd, I brought forward a petition following the loss of rural bus services called 'Buses for people not profit', and I'm proud that this Senedd is delivering the bus Bill, despite Conservative opposition. Concessionary passes have been protected in Wales from age 60, unlike in England under the UK Conservative Government. Fares of £1 have been introduced for young people. The bus support grant has protected and expanded routes such as the T8 in my region, and a £2 fare cap and a 10 per cent uplift in routes are planned.

Finally, £800 million has been invested in Transport for Wales, with new trains, rising passenger numbers and increasing staffing to support passengers and improve safety, standing in sharp contrast to Conservative plans to cut ticket offices and onboard staff. That's the difference a Welsh Labour Government has made.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I would like to use my contribution today to focus on two roads of critical importance to Pembrokeshire—the A477 and the A40. I'll begin with the A477. The Cabinet Secretary will be well aware that I have raised repeatedly, both in this Chamber and through written correspondence, the need for a full and comprehensive review of this trunk road. The A477 is not just any road, it is one of only two main arterial routes into Pembrokeshire—the other being the A40. It provides the vital link between the Pembroke Dock ferry terminal and the wider Welsh road network. Its strategic importance cannot be overstated.

There have been some local successes. The long-overdue improvement works at the Nash Fingerpost junction are welcome, but they took more than a decade to deliver and, tragically, too many lives were lost at that junction while communities waited for action. Elsewhere along the route, serious problems remain. At Milton, speeding routinely is ignored, the Red Roses junction has seen multiple accidents due to its poor design, the Cosheston junction is badly lit and particularly dangerous at night. These are not minor issues; they are persistent, well-known safety failures.

This is the main route for the Celtic Freeport—an initiative we are rightly championing for investment, jobs, growth and prosperity for the communities I represent. If we want to maximise the benefits from the free port, then people and goods need to be able to freely and safely get to and from Pembroke Dock on our road network. However, once again, Pembrokeshire feels overlooked. As one constituent recently put it to me, 'I just don't feel like Cardiff knows we exist here in Pembrokeshire.' Sadly, Llywydd, this sentiment is becoming all too familiar.

Turning to the A40, the other key arterial route serving the county, it connects Fishguard harbour with Carmarthen, and onwards to the A48 and M4 at Pont Abraham. Once again, this is a road of national and international significance, and yet, under this Government, it has never been treated as a priority. Where long-overdue investment has arrived, it has come in the form of piecemeal 'two plus one' schemes, rather than the proper dualling that this trunk road requires. Indeed, I am led to believe that the A40 forms part of the E30 trans-European route from Cork to the eastern Polish border, and that this section is the only part of that corridor that is not dualled, representing yet another failure to add to Labour's disastrous 27-year record in infrastructure here in Wales. [Interruption.] I'll take an intervention.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm just a little bit bemused by your request. I need to get it clear in my mind so I don't misrepresent you. So, you're really saying that you want to cut a whole road through what will be farmland, quite frankly, in the main, and disturb all the habitats, to add an extra lane—because a lot of it, as you've just said, is 'two plus one'—and desecrate all that land that you very often argue here is desperately needed for the use of your farmers. I just want to be clear so I don't misrepresent you.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

You just said earlier, Joyce, that you were supportive of the dualling of the A40 back in the day. It's you that's changed your mind here when it's been politically convenient for you. But I do return to the 'two plus one' schemes and the bypasses. Because last year, with the Cabinet Secretary, I attended the opening of the Llanddewi Velfrey bypass—a project first discussed in the early 2010s. I was on that coach tour alongside the Cabinet Secretary for transport and the First Minister, who, if you recall, Cabinet Secretary—I'm looking to you up on the screen—burst into song like an auntie at a wedding on the coach. The smile says it all. That road was opened with great fanfare in May 2025, and yet today, it has been reduced to a single carriageway contraflow because resurfacing works are already required on a road less than 12 months old. Frankly, you couldn't make it up.

But what truly frustrates me and my constituents, Llywydd, is seeing Labour backbenchers proudly champion the Heads of the Valleys road as a transformative project for these communities, a project that took 23 years to construct. It is a significant project, albeit late and over budget, but at the same time, this Government froze other road-building projects across Wales. I agree that the Heads of the Valleys road is economically and socially important. Good road infrastructure matters. But if that is the case, why, when Wales sits at the bottom of the economic league tables, did this Government decide that no new roads were to be built? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot celebrate the economic benefits of major road improvements in one part of Wales while denying long-overdue infrastructure to others. Pembrokeshire deserves better, and my constituents expect better.

And it's not just in Pembrokeshire. There's the M4 relief road, the will-they-won't-they of finally getting around to doing something to fix the congestion at the Brynglas tunnels. Hauliers I know always raise the need to fix this issue. Indeed, I think the Cabinet Secretary actually agrees with them. He did stand and get elected on a manifesto promise to build an M4 relief road. Yet like the traffic stuck in gridlock around Newport, there's been no movement from this Government on a relief road. It's because of this reason, and the reasons I've outlined regarding the A40 and A477, that I urge this Senedd to back our motion and get Wales moving once again.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I just say my constituents want the current roads kept in good condition and the potholes filled in?

How fast should we drive on roads so that we are safe? I've had Reform supporters tell me that speed limits should be abolished. Is that Reform's policy? We won't know, because they're not here. 'Drivers should drive at a speed they choose using their experience and the road conditions.' As the road conditions are the same for everyone, then everyone should travel at the same speed. That only happens in traffic jams. As one 19-year-old told me, 'I'm an experienced driver, I do not need speed limits'. The accident records show that, unfortunately, this is not true.

Twice before the change to 20 mph on all local roads, I would have been in an accident if I had driven at 30 mph. The first was on Pleasant Street, where my office is situated. Pleasant Street, like lots of roads and streets, is made up of terraced houses and off-street parking. It's essentially a one-lane road with passing places in between parked cars. A car drove up at 30 mph, which was then inside the current legal limit. I was travelling down at 15 mph, and we stopped about 1m apart. If we'd both been doing 30 mph, a head-on collision would've been inevitable.

The second incident was when a car pulled out from a parking area near the Guildhall. Again, I was travelling at less than 20 mph, and I stopped without collision. At 30 mph, I would've had a collision. There's a consensus that 20 mph is a suitable speed limit on estate roads, especially by people who are living on them. Do the Conservatives really believe 30 mph is suitable on the cul-de-sac I live in, which has four houses? When I travel to my office in Morriston, en route to the Senedd, like today, the distance is exactly 1 mile, but the satnav tells me it will take me five minutes, which is an average speed of 12 mph.

The road system consists of motorways and A roads, which are the major roads intended to provide large-scale transport links within or between areas. B roads are roads intended to connect different areas and to feed traffic between A roads and smaller roads. Unclassified or unnumbered roads, which are smaller roads, sometimes connecting together A and B roads, often link housing estates or a village to the rest of the network. Most link other roads in the area. These are similar to minor roads on an ordnance survey map and are sometimes unofficially known as C roads. Unclassified roads are local roads intended for local traffic. The vast majority of roads, over 60 per cent of roads in the UK, fall within this category.

I regularly drove around Swansea before roads were made 20 mph, and found that I needed a drive at no more than 20 mph on estate roads, where most are effectively single lane, with passing points in between parked cars, due to cars parked on both sides of the road. Areas of older terrace housing and council estates where houses do not have a drive mean that people cannot drive safely at 30 mph. There's parking both sides of the road, as people seek to park near their home. Even on newer estates where there are drives, cars still park on the road, especially where drives are very steep and have a significant slope going down or coming up. Traffic movement at junctions has improved with the 20 mph speed limit. There's a need to review speed limits on A and B roads that have been reduced to 20 mph. There are five B roads that are partly or wholly 20 mph in Swansea, which I believe need reviewing.

On the M4 relief road, we have seen what happened with the London relief road, the M25. The M25 was created as a motorway encircling most of greater London to solve traffic problems. The 117-mile motorway is one of the most important roads in UK and one of the busiest, and has been described as the largest car park in UK. The M25 was originally built mostly as a three-lane motorway. Much has been widened to four lanes, some to five lanes, between junction 12 and 14, and a six-lane section between junction 14 and 15. Twelve lanes between junction 12 and 14 is twice the size of the original road that was built. A report in The Economist after it was built said it had taken 70 years to plan the motorway, 12 to build it and just one to find it was inadequate. Traffic levels quickly exceeded the maximum design capacity. The M25 has been criticised for having too many junctions, with 14 of them serving only local roads.

What has happened around the M25 is major house building, including the Bowmans Cross development near junction 22. Substantial commercial development is also being built around the M25—[Interruption.]—including at Purfleet, within 0.5 miles of junction 31 of the M25.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Would you accept that possibly comparing the M25 with the road infrastructure in Wales is a bit like comparing apples and pears in some sense, given that the M25 was built for and continues to serve the capital city of Great Britain? But then, in Wales, we have just the one motorway in the M4, an expressway in north Wales in the A55, and issues around catching up in terms of wanting to dual the likes of the A40 and some other roads across the country. It couldn't be deemed a fair comparison in that regard.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I was comparing it as a relief road. It is inconceivable that such development on a smaller scale won't happen around any M4 relief road. The first 124 miles between London and Wales has 28 junctions, whilst the next 78 miles in Wales has 27 junctions. It's obvious the average distance between junctions is longer in England than in Wales. There are certain areas in Wales that have many junctions close together, including seven around Newport, over 11 miles, where there are the usual traffic problems. The dualled Heads of the Valleys road has reduced traffic to and from the midlands going west and east using the M4 around Newport. Finally, we have the American solution, such as the Katy highway in Texas, with 26 lanes and traffic jams, where drivers this morning were advised to avoid the area due to the traffic jams.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Welsh Labour, again propped up by Plaid Cymru, have significantly damaged our transport system. You've supported the scrapping of building roads and prioritising active travel, of which on some routes there has been hardly any take-up, and, of course, the continuous funding of Cardiff Airport. Under this Welsh Labour Government, we have seen around £32 million spent on the 20 mph policy, around a 20 per cent loss of bus passengers in Wales, and poor rail service reliability.

The key to a strong economy and a strong society is strong transport services, yet there has been this anti-motorist agenda for far too long, with 7.6 per cent of planned TfW services between January and September 2025 cancelled. That's nearly 16,000 cancellations. There's been a closure again of the Menai bridge that has caused significant disruption. It's simply not good enough. In my constituency of Aberconwy, strong transport links are vital as we are a key tourism destination, and the same in Bangor Conwy Môn. They rely heavily on that sector. We need to improve our connectivity across Wales, making it easier for tourists—the tourists that Plaid Cymru are not too keen on coming to Wales.

I don't blame the Welsh Labour Government—completely, I should say. I've previously raised the drastic effects of the Plaid and Labour co-operation agreement that's been in place for the usual three-year period, then you step aside. In one of your commitments, there were plans to explore development of transport links between north and south Wales. There was even mention of a north Wales metro. I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could just advise me as to what's happened to those.

There has been active travel spend of £216 million, yet a freedom of information request revealed that there's been a 0 per cent increase in cyclists using those designated routes. What an absolute waste of money. What we have seen is late or cancelled trains, millions paid out in compensation claims, a reduction in bus routes, especially in our rural, isolated towns and villages, and a very unpopular anti-motorist 20 mph speed limit.

There have been many promises by Ken Skates, who I really like, to uplift to 30 mph, passing the buck to the local authorities, and they've not implemented anything. There's the frequent gridlock on the A55 as a result of weekly crashes, frustrating our workers, our motorists and our hauliers. Then the massive problems with the Menai crossing—that again puts our hauliers at risk when trying to access the Holyhead port.

Now, the Welsh Conservatives, again, have a plan to achieve this. In fact, we have a plan to fix Wales. We will scrap the default 20 mph. We will actually restore the default speed limit to 30 mph. We will build an M4 relief road. We will upgrade the A55 and dual the A40. We will deliver a third Menai crossing, and we will certainly unfreeze all road projects.

In Ynys Môn, the former MP worked really hard on the Menai crossing, about having a third crossing, and we, the Welsh Conservatives, will provide a third crossing over the Menai straits. We all need to accept that without good infrastructure in place, you don't have a good economy, and you just offer up to our voters, our residents and our visitors a poor sham of an excuse of a transport system. It is broken, it is failed. It is time to move over and let the Welsh Conservatives fix Wales.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Transport connectivity is vital to the economic prosperity of Wales, but if you listen to the motion in front of us today, you'd be forgiven for thinking that a large part of the country simply does not exist. I want to be clear from the outset: I'm disappointed that mid Wales, and particularly it's road network, is explicitly not mentioned in this Welsh Conservative motion. For a debate about national transport connectivity, that omission speaks volumes.

Powys is the largest county in Wales, it has the largest road network of any local authority, yet it is routinely overlooked in national transport planning. That is not a new problem, but it is one that continues to be ignored even in debates that are supposed to be about improving connectivity for the whole of Wales. For people in mid Wales, transport is not about choice. It's about necessity. We do not have frequent rail services. We do not have realistic public transport alternatives. Roads are our public transport. Roads are how people get to work, get to school, attend hospital appointments, and keep local businesses alive. And yet those roads are in a shocking state. Across Powys, people are dealing with daily potholes, failing road surfaces and unsafe junctions, and consistent temporary repairs instead of long-term investments—roads being patched and resurfaced with short-term fixes, included being downgraded to chip and seal, which wears out quickly and costs many over time. This is not value for money. It is certainly not fairness for the people who live in my constituency.

Local people are frustrated, and rightly so. They pay the same taxes as everybody else, but they are expected to put up with worse infrastructure. In Powys, decisions taken by the Liberal Democrat-run council have allowed our road conditions to deteriorate further, while they divert funding into green projects that residents do not see as a priority. Nowhere is that neglect more obvious than on the A470. The A470 is the backbone of Wales, linking north to south and connecting rural communities to services, jobs and opportunities. In mid Wales, it should be a strategic investment priority. Instead, improvements are delayed, safety concerns are left unresolved and communities are told to make do. Or we do tend to get breadcrumbs from the deal that Jane Dodds did with Labour, just to go on the next Liberal Democrat election leaflet.

If we are serious about transport connectivity, then mid Wales cannot be an afterthought, and the people putting this motion forward should not have thought of it as an afterthought. That is why I find it so disappointing that this motion on major road projects elsewhere in Wales fails to acknowledge the importance of routes like the A470, or the unique challenges faced by rural communities in Powys. If mid Wales is missing from the motion, it raises serious questions about how much it is truly valued in the Welsh Conservative transport policy.

Turning to the amendments, we see more of the same. One seeks to shift responsibility entirely elsewhere, while the other offers a long list of achievements that simply do not reflect the lived experiences of people living in rural Wales. Investment announcements mean little if the outcome on the ground is declining road conditions and worsening connectivity. Rural Wales does not need warm words or glossy strategies. It needs practical investment, evidence-based decisions and fair treatment. This debate should be about ensuring that no part of Wales is left behind, not just that there are areas where the loudest voices or the loudest populations get what they want. Mid Wales matters, Powys matters, and I can tell you our roads matter. And until transport policy properly reflects that, people living in rural mid Wales will continue to feel ignored. Diolch, Llywydd.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Good connectivity is the backbone of a successful economy. It's how people get to work, how goods get to markets and how communities stay connected. Yet since devolution, under 27 years of Labour control propped up by Plaid Cymru—it's not the first time we've heard that this afternoon—Wales has seen a total stagnation in road transport infrastructure and we have some of the weakest transport infrastructure in Britain, coupled with some of the worst congestion on key routes anywhere in Europe. This is not an accident, it's the result of deliberate political choices. Under Labour and Plaid, Wales has seen default 20 mph limits imposed, an M4 relief road scrapped after spending millions on the plans and road projects frozen across the country. The freeze on road building is ideal for the Welsh Government because they can continue their war on the motorist. They don't have to put their hand in their pocket, and they can use the environment as their excuse.

Let us start with the deeply unpopular 20 mph scheme. This is well-trodden ground, but I will summarise anyway. The measure was sold as a safety measure, but road casualties were already falling year on year before it was introduced. In 2015, there were almost 7,700 casualties in Wales, and by 2022, that figure had fallen below 4,500. Fewer than 100 people have died on Welsh roads each year since 2019—[Interruption.]—which is still too much, I must add to that particular remark; I will make progress, Joyce.

Across Britain, road deaths have been falling for decades, despite more vehicles and more miles driven. We have some of the safest highways in the world, yet the Welsh Government pressed ahead anyway instead of a targeted approach to introduce safety measures on areas where collisions are higher. The unnecessary and unwanted default 20 mph limit cost £32 million to implement, with an estimated £4.5 billion hit to the Welsh economy over the next 30 years due to lost productivity. And what have we gained? Transport for Wales admits that average journey times have gone up on almost every route measured. Air quality has not improved in any meaningful way, and the evidence on pedestrian safety remains inconclusive.

Now to the M4 relief road. Six years ago, Labour scrapped the project after spending £150 million of taxpayers' money just on the planning, despite evidence that the economic benefit would outweigh the cost by two to one, and despite the South East Wales Transport Commission ranking the M4 near Newport amongst the worst congestion hotspots in Europe. Anecdotally, you hear this regularly when speaking to people from England who drive into south Wales and are shocked at the congestion on the M4. Haulage firms as well, and equally, also warn that the bottleneck is strangling the south Wales economy. But, of course, when the Welsh Conservatives brought forward a motion calling for an M4 relief road to be delivered, Labour and Plaid voted it down.

In north Wales, communities in Ynys Môn are also being failed yet again. The Menai bridge has now been plagued by delays for years. What was meant to be a repair has now turned into a five-year saga of closures, and, at times, Anglesey has nearly been completely shut off from the north Wales mainland. Being able to cross the Menai straits is an economic imperative. Think of all those haulage firms that have to use the Irish sea services. They connect workers to jobs and tourists to businesses.

On a local level, in my constituency in the Vale of Clwyd, we see the harm caused by decades of infrastructural stagnation. Since the Rhuddlan bypass was built in the late 1990s, we've seen no major investment locally. The villages of Trefnant and Tremeirchion were disconnected in 2021 when storm Christoph destroyed Llanerch bridge. But five years on, myself and local residents are fighting every inch to see this restored. And also the 'dizzy bends' as well, which connect Rhyl and Prestatyn: 27,000 people in Rhyl, 18,000 or 19,000 in Prestatyn—nearly 50,000 people connected by a near singular track, which has been in use since the days of horse and cart. Nothing wrong with the 'dizzy bends', it's just to show that despite huge housing developments in recent decades, we still haven't seen that equate to any road developments locally, unfortunately. I have repeatedly raised significant issues regarding that and with safety and congestion in the middle section of the A55, which runs through my constituency in north Wales, which have not been addressed by the Welsh Government at all. Instead, they saw fit to freeze all road-building projects. We are not saving the planet by restricting the movement of people and goods within Wales, but we are harming the economy.

The Welsh Conservatives believe the opposite. We are proudly pro motorist, pro worker, pro business and pro growth. We want to scrap the default 20 mph limit, we want to build the M4 relief road, upgrade the A55, dual the A40 and deliver a third Menai crossing. Because better road connectivity means stronger communities and a more competitive Welsh economy. Llywydd, we need to stop slowing Wales down, literally and economically. We must stop choosing congestion over connectivity and ideology over infrastructure. I urge anyone to vote with our motion, unamended, to get Wales moving again. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary for transport now—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I can assure Members that throughout this Senedd term and before, we've acted with purpose to build a transport system that meets the needs of today, but that also prepares Wales for the demands of tomorrow. I'd like to address some of the specific points raised in this debate.

First of all, 20 mph. Twenty miles an hour is people walking away from collisions that would otherwise have been life ending. It's resulted in emergency services not having to face the aftermath of tragedy and families not receiving the knock on the door that no-one should ever have to fear. Now, there is some evidence emerging as well of cheaper vehicle insurance as a result of this policy, which is good for businesses and it's good for households. And as I've previously said, I think it's really important to take this issue out of the culture wars, to be honest and to be able to have a debate on the evidence. And that's why we commissioned an independent evaluation, reporting in three stages. First, an initial report this year, then an interim report next year and a final report in 2029. A truly objective piece of work.

Now, our investment in rail is unprecedented in both ambition and scale. The south Wales metro is firmly established. It's one of the most transformative infrastructure programmes Wales has ever undertaken. More than £1 billion has been invested in the core Valleys lines, reshaping how people move across the region and modernising outdated infrastructure. And, of course, building a fast, frequent integrated network. The metro I think has been a massive success story. And alongside this, we've invested £800 million in new trains, almost doubling the number that are operating on the network. These trains deliver more than comfort, they enable a better timetable, they enable more frequent services and a more reliable experience. Modern accessibility features, cleaner and more efficient trains and greater seating capacity are now being felt by passengers right across the network, driving up passenger satisfaction to levels that other rail operators in Europe would envy.

Our reforms to the bus system match this ambition. The Senedd has passed a landmark bus Bill, introducing franchising and putting passengers and communities at the very centre of service planning. Through better co-ordination and clearer accountability, we will build a bus network that works reliably for people who depend on it daily. And we're already seeing the impact. More than 2 million journeys have now been made by young people using the £1 fare cap that we developed with Jane Dodds, making travel more affordable, widening access to education and leisure, and helping build the long-term habit of choosing public transport. On the Welsh Government's TrawsCymru network, we've seen a very welcome and significant increase in passenger numbers, demonstrating what can be achieved when we have control of the full network.

Now, a safe, resilient road network remains essential to this wider vision, and that's why we launched a major road renewal programme, beginning with the £180 million River Dee replacement scheme—a critical project for the whole of north Wales. We're also addressing the roads maintenance backlog. It's an incredible fact, and I believe a truly impressive achievement, that we have improved already this year 627 km of roads and filled 203,000 potholes, the majority in rural Wales. I'm pleased to assure James Evans that Powys and Ceredigion are prime beneficiaries of this, with 71 projects already completed and over 50,000 potholes filled or prevented.

Now, to ensure the road network serves Wales's long-term economic needs, we have also commissioned a comprehensive review on major strategic routes, including the M4, the A55, A484 and A483. This assessment will identify the interventions required to improve traffic flow and reliability along corridors vital for business, trade and connectivity. It's about planning intelligently for the future and ensuring that our infrastructure matches Wales's economic ambition.

We're also driving forward new regional metro schemes in other parts of Wales, mirroring the vision of the south Wales metro. Delivery of network north Wales is taking place at great pace and is interfaced and integrated with Northern Powerhouse Rail. I know some have been critical of investment in infrastructure in England, regardless of how it benefits people commuting from Wales, but allow me to quote from the 2018 case for investment by Professor Mark Barry, an excellent report:

'Development of the Northern Powerhouse concept in the north of England has captured imaginations and has become another expression of devolved thinking and action. As a concept and in strategy it includes north Wales.'

Now, Professor Barry went on to argue for investment across the north of Wales and England to benefit Welsh citizens and the Welsh economy. To answer Janet Finch-Saunders's question, I'm delighted that work is finally under way on the north Wales main line and on the Wrexham to Liverpool line that Professor Barry rightly promoted and which will result in a vast increase in train services.

All of these achievements reflect far more than investment, though: they reflect a clear and confident vision, a vision of a nation where transport is not a barrier, but a bridge to opportunity, where communities are connected, businesses can thrive, and future generations inherit a system that is cleaner, safer and more resilient than the one before, and which, crucially, is connected to, not cut off from the rest of Britain.

And finally, to the Tories, I'd remind them of how they inflicted a decade of austerity on councils across Wales, scrapped projects like electrification to Swansea, HS2 phase 2 and smart motorways, all at enormous cost to the taxpayer. And to Plaid, I'd ask how their promises will be funded in an independent Wales facing an annual deficit of more than £12 billion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd, and thank you to all Members that took part in this afternoon's debate. I'm very grateful to listen to Members, even if I didn't agree with everything that was necessarily being said.

Now, look, we as Welsh Conservatives, and Sam Rowlands said this when he opened the debate today, know and understand that transport is absolutely integral to our economy. It is integral to our economic growth or lack thereof here in Wales, and it's no surprise, is it, that we've seen that a Welsh Government that doesn't take transport seriously—and clearly, by some of the actions that have been outlined by colleagues, it doesn't take transport seriously—is indicative of a Government that doesn't take the economy seriously enough.

It's no wonder that the First Minister said of her predecessor that he wasn't interested in the economy, and it's no wonder that the former transport Minister said that Labour didn't understand what it was doing on the economy. And perhaps there is nowhere that that is better epitomised than in transport. There have been some key decisions that have been made, haven't there, particularly around road projects being frozen in Wales at the start of this Senedd term.

We heard from Sam Kurtz about how important the A40 was to connectivity in west Wales. We heard from Gareth Davies about how important the A55 was to connectivity in north Wales. And we heard from the queen of the north, Janet Finch-Saunders, about the importance of the third crossing at the Menai bridge and how important that is to connect Anglesey to the rest of Wales.

Now, that same ambition, unfortunately, isn't there from other parties. When Sam Rowlands rose to his feet to open this debate, there was only one Plaid Cymru Member in this Chamber. That is how seriously Plaid Cymru take transport connectivity here in Wales. And in that contribution, the entirety of that contribution, three and a half minutes, all they had to talk about in terms of their plans for transport connectivity in Wales was a railway line in England. Now, we agree with the calls for consequential funding for HS2 in England, but you would think that Plaid Cymru had something to say on transport connectivity in Wales, but they had absolutely nothing to say. And now—[Interruption.] Oh, they've got a lot to say now; I wish you were here at the beginning of the debate, Llyr. Now, I'm grateful for the one Plaid Cymru Member that was here, but there was no Reform Member here whatsoever. There was no Liberal Democrat in the Chamber whatsoever. That is the seriousness with which these parties take transport; something that you will never, ever get from the Welsh Conservatives.

Now I'm grateful too to the other contributions—[Interruption.] I'm grateful too to the other contributions that we heard, particularly from Mike Hedges, who took us on an Ordnance Survey map tour of Morriston and all its various speed limits. Now, Mike opened by saying that constituents, our mutual constituents, wanted roads maintained and potholes fixed, and I agree with you, Mike, but I would question how many of them feel Swansea council is doing that.

And I'm grateful too to James Evans for his contribution and the importance that he places on mid Wales. Now I agree with him and that is why—and he knows this—that is why the Newtown bypass was campaigned for and delivered by the Conservatives here as well, and obviously we understand the importance of the A470 that James mentioned, and he could have amended—[Interruption.] Yes, well done, Russell. And James could have amended this debate to include the A470 and we would of course have supported that, and I regret that you chose not to do that today, James.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Will you take an intervention?

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Very happy to take an intervention.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'd very happily amend the motion. I'm surprised the Welsh Conservatives didn't come forward with it in the first place. It just shows how much the Welsh Conservatives care about mid Wales, and, if they cared a little bit more about mid Wales, perhaps I'd be sat there, not by here.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, you certainly didn't mention transport connectivity in your reasons to leave the Welsh Conservatives. But, again, I think the lack of seriousness with which—. I mean, there's a new reason every day, isn't there, James, I suppose?

But look, the A470, going forward: you could have amended the motion today in order to include that, but you chose not to, and I regret that that didn't happen.

Now, when we look at the way in which the Labour Government looks at transport policy here in Wales, perhaps there are two tentpole issues that we could we could draw attention to. First is 20 mph. Now, we know that there were half a million signatures to this place against that policy of default 20 mph speed limits, summarily ignored and continuing to be dismissed by the likes of Joyce Watson, despite those concerns being raised. [Interruption.] No, thank you—

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

If you give way, I'll give you a reason for—

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

No, we've had—. We know half a million people signed that petition against them, completely ignored by the Labour Government; £33 million being spent on road signs across Wales, and many know, in those communities, those 20 mph an hour speed limits that don't work. Yes, there are 20 mph speed limits that do work, but many, many people can draw on examples of 20 mph speed limits in their communities that simply do not make any sense, and that is a consequence of the top-down approach that we've seen from the Welsh Labour Government, that thinks the Government knows best, that decisions can be made in Cardiff about speed limits across the country. It simply doesn't make sense.

And also, on the M4 relief road, we know, don't we, that the Welsh Labour Government promised that they would deliver an M4 relief road, because they knew—. They used to make the arguments that we made about the importance of transport connectivity, about how that grows our economy, and now we know, don't we, that they cancelled that project without a single inch of road being built in Wales. One hundred and fifty million pounds of taxpayers' money completely lost as a consequence of the cancellation of that project. We would never be as cavalier as that with public money, and we certainly would get on and deliver that M4 relief road.

Now, I'll finally end with the Cabinet Secretary's response to our debate and, like Janet Finch-Saunders, I like you, too, Ken; I think I think you're a very talented Minister. However, despite your talents, you did leave out a couple of facts in your response. You highlighted the delivery of the metros, but they were of course delivered with a £500 million contribution from the UK Conservative Government as a consequence of the city deals. And, on buses, you will also be aware that many bus operators cited the 20 mph policy as slowing down bus routes, leading to some being cancelled, leading to others taking longer, and that the Welsh Labour Government ended subsidies for bus companies at the same time, which also led to the ending of bus routes as well. So, it is clear, isn't it, Dirprwy Lywydd, that Plaid Cymru, Reform and the Liberal Democrats are not interested in improving our transport connectivity here in Wales, and, when it comes to the Labour Party, they are off track and they have run out of road.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Housing

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on housing. I call on Siân Gwenllian to move the motion.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Wales is in a housing crisis, and that crisis is deepening every day. This is not a peripheral issue, nor is it a temporary problem, and the majority of the people of Wales recognise this, with housing problems ranking third among the concerns of the people of Wales in survey after survey as people think about the future. Following health and jobs, housing is one of the great concerns of our age. The crisis is affecting thousands of households across Wales: families, children and individuals who are deprived of the most basic thing of all, namely a safe and stable home. Let's be absolutely clear from the outset that housing conditions in Wales are among the worst in Europe. Too many people are living in poor-quality homes that are unsafe and unsuitable. This, of course, is harming public health, driving up the cost of living, exacerbating fuel poverty and undermining our efforts to tackle the climate emergency.

The evidence is clear and consistent across the entire housing sector. And the results can be seen on our streets and in our communities. Homelessness is still rising. Waiting lists for social housing are unacceptably long, numbering around 170,000 people at present. More than 13,000 people have sought homelessness support from local authorities in the last year alone. And last October, more than 10,000 people were trapped in temporary accommodation, including almost 3,000 children, many without access to cooking or laundry facilities, sometimes for months and even years. [Interruption.] Yes, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch yn fawr, Siân. Would you accept some responsibility for this, when you've supported all the way through all of the new legislation that came in that has seen private landlords just exit the market? It is now costing, for somebody in a hotel, £100 a day per adult, £76 per child. If you work it out, for a mother and two children, that's over £3,000. Those people could have actually been in a private rental for around £900 now, a month. Temporary accommodation spend has just gone up. Do you accept some responsibility for backing that legislation, which has seen so many people now seeking and living in temporary accommodation?