Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 27 January 2026

299 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

1. Will the First Minister provide an update on the insourcing of dermatology treatment and endoscopy procedures? OQ63740

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

In November, 43,800 people were relieved of pain and discomfort as a result of treatment in the Welsh NHS, contributing to the biggest monthly reduction in the waiting list on record. This Government has invested millions this year to reduce waiting lists, including the commissioning of a range of services, including endoscopy and dermatology. We're pleased that this is now paying off, but recognise that the NHS has further to go.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. The reason I've raised this, First Minister, is, as you know, over the last two or three years, you've had a tendency to cancel contracts when you are insourcing. And this has been apparent in hernia treatment, endoscopy, dermatology and more. We heard recently about the PET scan—the contract for that has now been cancelled in north Wales.

Now, the average waiting time for a first dermatology out-patient is stated as 15 weeks, with 10 per cent of patients waiting more than 50 weeks. I've got constituents who have been waiting well over 100 weeks, and they're just not well. And people are worried because, in a lot of cases, these people go to a dermatologist, and some people think they've got skin cancer, which, as you know, can sometimes have a secondary—. So, it's a really worrying aspect. In July 2025, nearly 7,000 were waiting for a diagnostic endoscopy. So, that was an increase from 4,985 the previous year. Now, behind these figures are real people.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can you come to your question, please, Janet Finch-Saunders?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes. This is just not acceptable. You stand there week after week stating that you're bringing waiting lists down. In those areas I've mentioned, they're increasing. [Interruption.] I'm not speaking to you; I'm speaking to the First Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Ask the question. You're not speaking anymore; you're asking a question.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

So, will you, First Minister, please look at those areas I've mentioned and come back to me with a letter, just to tell me how those waiting lists are going down, because they're not?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I can tell you they are. That is the truth. And, listen, I understand that it's very, very concerning. I was particularly concerned when I was health Minister about the situation in relation to dermatology in north Wales. The incidence of skin cancer is increasing. We need to catch it early. The north Wales health board has an insourcing dermatology contract for the provision of dermatology services, including for out-patients, cancer treatment and minor operations.

Now, the additional capacity that this Government has funded has led to a 97 per cent reduction in two-year dermatology waits. [Interruption.] Yes, I think that deserves a clap. That is an incredible change from where it was—an 86 per cent reduction in those waiting over 52 weeks for a first out-patient appointment. That is progress. Of course there's more that can be done, but we recognise that, with endoscopy, for example, what's happening now is that a temporary endoscopy unit is being set up at Ysbyty Gwynedd, and that's going to start seeing patients in March. That's expected to enable over 1,500 people to receive medical care over the next few months.

The fact is, because we've had additional money—money that will be put again to you today in a budget—that can bring those waiting lists down, we will be voting for that. There'll be other parties here who'll be voting for that. You will not be voting for that, and that makes a difference to the people that you represent in those constituencies.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

2. What progress is the Welsh Government making on achieving a healthier and more active population? OQ63764

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We launched our new 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan in September, with full Cabinet and cross-Government support. The plan has a clear focus not just on food, but also on physical activity. Across Government, we’re improving active travel routes, establishing regional sport partnerships, through Sport Wales, developing the daily active offer for our schools, and providing significant funding for programmes, such as the 60-plus active leisure scheme, and Fit Fans, to support adults to be more active.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you for that, First Minister. When it comes to health, we do need to be a lot more preventative for our population and to help relieve pressure on our health and social care services. This particularly applies in our more deprived areas, where ill health is greater. A more active population would help. I carried out an active Newport survey and the responses showed very strongly that there isn't enough access to facilities and infrastructure—whether that's 3G, indoor courts, fields, schools, changing rooms or storage facilities. I believe these issues are best addressed through prioritisation of our more deprived areas and providing those better facilities and support for them. So, First Minister, will the Welsh Government take a lead and work with key partners such as Sport Wales, the Football Association of Wales, the Welsh Rugby Union, local authorities, leisure trusts, our professional clubs and, of course, grass-roots organisations in our communities, to align policy and practice, to better deliver for our more deprived communities?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, John. Thank you for your leadership in this. I know you're an active sportsman, and you lead the way for your community through example. What we know is that keeping fit decreases people's chances of developing health issues. The issue raised, whether it's access to facilities, competition for limited indoor spaces, shortage of pool lanes, 3G pitches, or indoor courts—. All of these are exactly the kinds of barriers that can limit participation and hold clubs back, particularly, I think, during the winter months. We recognise that it is important to focus on those areas perhaps where there is increased deprivation, to give those facilities and to focus those facilities in those areas, but also to work with organisations that can perhaps reach into those communities in a way that state structures can't. So, working with organisations like the FAW, I think, is really important, because they are able to get to these people to encourage them to participate. So, our focus is clear: we have given additional resources to Sport Wales to invest in modern, inclusive facilities to support local partners to make better use of existing spaces. And our focus is clear: improving facilities, widening access and creating more opportunities for sports organisations and communities in places like Newport.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, if we're serious about preventative measures, then genomics is going to be central to this. Mapping an individual's genetic code will lead to the ability to tailor healthcare long before one needs treatment or care because of that ability to identify a condition beforehand. So, how do you see genomics assisting in reaching the health targets of this Government?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We're already using genomics quite extensively in Wales. If you just look at what we're doing in relation to cancer treatments and screening, all of that is already being used. In fact, we're right at the front when it comes to liquid biopsies and analysing how those can be treated using specific targeted medicines. So, we are leading the way when it comes to genomics, I think, in Wales.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's no secret, really, that we have a problem with obesity and idleness in both adults and children, with current trends of obesity in Wales worsening, affecting one in four children and three in five adults. Obesity also affects people in more deprived areas the most, as John Griffiths has mentioned. Promoting physical activity is vital to remedying this. Currently, one in three adults and 81 per cent of adolescents are not doing enough physical activity. According to Public Health Wales, there has been a shocking 44 per cent rise in obesity over the past 20 years, and this has happened on Labour's watch, with a titanic rise in the cost for the NHS services. Actif North Wales recognise that current provision for physical activities may be serving those already active but not, at least, active in society, following funding being secured from the previous UK Conservative Government to trial a place-based approach in four local authorities across north Wales. They've seen great success, working closely with residents and local organisations to really get to know each area, what was already working well, and what was already getting in the way of people being active. So, can the First Minister outline how the Welsh Government is working to reverse the vast rise in obesity over the past two decades, and how is the Welsh Government learning from the approach of Actif North Wales to target the most deprived areas where obesity is more common?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I do think that we need to encourage people to live healthier lifestyles, and that's why we've been very comprehensive with our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, which encourages people to eat healthily and to protect their health through physical activity. There's a whole range of things that the Government is already doing. Some of it is within our gift. I think we have to recognise that things like the increase in the amount of ultra-processed food that people are eating is something that is difficult and something that the UK Government needs to actually work on. We've done what we can in the Welsh Government, and we will continue to go further to make it easier for people to make the right choices—so, introducing things like making sure that you're not tempted, like I am every time I go to my local CKs shop, when I see the chocolates there just before the checkout. I'm tempted. I'm tempted by those Haribos that are just sitting there, looking at me. We've got to make it easier for people through removing that temptation. I do think that our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy is going to be central to helping people to avoid those temptations in future.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

First Minister, we all want to see progress towards achieving a healthier and more active population. However, are you aware of the growing concerns around the inappropriate use of weight-loss medication in Wales? I've been made aware of these drugs being supplied to people without proper clinical oversight. During a recent hospital visit, I was told of an increasing number of admissions of people with serious side effects, which is putting huge pressure on our hospital departments and A&E. Does the First Minister agree with me that the time has come for these medications to only be available via GP referral, and that, without people making sustainable lifestyle changes, including calorie deficit and increasing physical activity, there are no quick, long-term fixes to tackling obesity and losing weight?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I know a number of people who are using these weight-loss drugs, and a number of people are losing a significant amount of weight as a result, and they swear by them. But I think we have got to make sure that people understand that, when they come off them, there could be consequences, but also that doing it without adjusting your diet is also going to be difficult when you come off those drugs. I would recommend, to people in Wales who are tempted to go down this path, that they do get the right clinical advice before they undertake these weight-loss drugs.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, the Home Secretary outlined what she described as the biggest reform of policing in 200 years. That should surely be a big opportunity for Wales. Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice stood in this Chamber and she said,

'it is, of course, our ambition...for Wales to secure the devolution of policing and justice in their entirety.'

Two days later, the First Minister herself delivered a speech reiterating her party's apparent commitment—[Inaudible.]—but yesterday, when my colleague Liz Saville-Roberts asked the Labour Home Secretary whether she agreed that now is exactly the right time for the devolution of policing in Wales, she got four dismissive words of reply.

'No, I do not.'

From one week to the next, I struggle to work out which is worse: the blatant disregard towards Wales shown by Labour MPs, or the Labour Welsh Government's sheer inability to influence their Westminster colleagues. I'll tell you exactly what I think: this is a Labour Home Secretary in a Labour UK Government that doesn't even try to hide its disdain towards Wales and the devolution process. Does the First Minister agree with my assessment, and will she echo and repeat those words, or will she again try to wriggle out of standing up for Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I made it absolutely clear, in a speech that I set out last week, where we stand on this issue, and I'm glad he was paying attention to that speech. I will always stand up for Wales. What is important for me is that we focus on issues. It's not about constitutional positioning, as far as I'm concerned. It's not about gesture politics; it's about results. That's what matters, and what are the best structures to deliver those results. Let me be clear that this is the biggest restructuring of policing in 200 years. The Cabinet Secretary has met with the UK Government to talk about future governance in relation to this. We are not interested in policing to be devolved as a journey to independence. We're interested in making sure that it's about responding to the needs of people within our communities. It's results for people in our communities that matter. I'm focused on jobs, on the NHS, on school support. I am interested in plans for progress, not on shouting from the sidelines.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

You talked about the constitution when you were delivering that speech last week, only to find out four or five days later again how powerless you are to have any influence over UK Government Ministers. More wriggling, as I anticipated. I urge the First Minister to say it. It's so clear that Labour MPs and Keir Starmer have no interest in what's right for Wales. And as for her asking, it is always 'no', just like Andy Burnham got: 'no' on the Crown Estate, 'no' on fair funding, 'no' on HS2 money and now 'no' on policing, too. And do you know what, the more the people of Wales look, the more it sinks in that Labour is a party run from London with no regard for Wales. And they've quit pretending even. One Labour MP is quoted in the press today saying, 'We won't devolve policing, especially given that Labour's unlikely to be running Wales after May'. So, if it's not them in charge, they've got even less interest in Wales. It is shameful and it is transparent. Doesn't the First Minister believe that her office and her nation deserve more respect than this?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

My focus is not on the UK Government. My focus is on delivering for the people of Wales. My focus is on making sure that what we do today is that we get a budget through—[Inaudible.]—public services to provide that stability and hope, and an extra £400 million since the draft budget was published. What I am focused on is making sure that we focus on the things that really matter to the people of Wales. To the record-breaking—[Inaudible.]—that were delivered last month. And thank you to all of the NHS staff who have worked tirelessly, and also for the record investment that has come as a result of the fact that what we have are two Governments committed to public services. We've seen the biggest ever fall in a month when it comes to waiting lists—over 23,000 people coming off the lists. For the sixth month in a row, waiting lists are shorter, and the average time for waiting lists in Wales is 19 weeks.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

You know what, people watching this will be remembering the question that I asked, and I'll tell you what, it's a masterclass in wriggling out of addressing her impotence in relation to the UK Government. And remember that we don't want devolution for the sake of some constitutional—[Inaudible.]—this is about improving policing. Wales has the highest rate of incarceration in Europe. Thousands are trapped in a cycle of reoffending, which helps no-one. Services that the police work within are devolved, yet policing itself isn't. It's a barrier to joined-up thinking. But, no, policy in Labour's eyes is best developed through a Whitehall lens, when surely it's best developed through a Welsh lens.

One final question. I note the statement issued by the Welsh Government today calling for an assurance that no regional police force should operate on both sides of the England-Wales border. Cross-border co-operation, of course, is very, very important, but I agree that Wales's border must be respected now, or you're creating even more problems on what's devolved and what's not. But given how little influence the First Minister has been able to have on UK Labour colleagues to date, will she explain what's going to be different this time? What has she done since the announcement yesterday to take the case directly to the Home Office that she must at least allow a Wales-only force to emerge from this? It's a poor substitute for devolution, which Plaid Cymru will still press for, but it's the very least we need.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm very pleased that, in the White Paper, when mentioning the merger of forces, there was recognition of the distinct circumstances of Wales, and of course we'll be clear that we keep on pushing for our long-stated view that policing should be devolved. But at some point, it would be good if the Plaid Cymru leader could ask me about areas for which I actually have responsibility. This week, for example, we have made a pledge to make sure that school support staff in Wales, if we are re-elected in May, will receive all-year-round pay. That is the kind of thing that the people of Wales are interested in: making sure that people within our schools are supported in a way that will make a difference to the lives of children in those schools.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leader of the Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Today is Holocaust Memorial Day, of course, when we come together to commemorate the lives of the 6 million innocent men, women and children who were murdered simply because they were Jewish. At a time when the scourge of antisemitism, I'm afraid, is still once again on the rise, we must all be steadfast, saying that it must be challenged and tackled whenever and wherever it might arise.

First Minister, in your speech to the Institute for Government last week, you painted a terrifying picture of the threat to the United Kingdom posed by Plaid Cymru. Yet in recent years, your Welsh Government has been joined at the hip to those very same separatists, as you called them, through a co-operation agreement. You have spent literally years letting Plaid Cymru MSs into the inner sanctum of Government to help draft your budgets and to dictate your policies and legislation. That includes the unwanted and unpopular 20 mph default speed limits, the disastrous first draft of the sustainable farming scheme and the vanity projects that you continue to invest in in Uganda.

Isn't it, First Minister, the height of hypocrisy for you to now warn the public about the dangers of Plaid, when you have been working hand-in-glove with them, running Wales for years? Why should the people of Wales believe your warnings now, when you've been perfectly happy for Plaid to be your partner in crime?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm not going to apologise for the fact that we today, I hope, will get our budget through thanks to the support from Plaid Cymru. That's not something to be ashamed of. That is showing practical responsibility—something that you won't be showing this afternoon. Because we're going to be putting an extra £1.2 billion on the table to support our public services, and you're not going to be supporting that. You're not going to be supporting bringing those waiting lists down. You're not going to be supporting putting more money into our education system. You're not going to be supporting more money into housing and into transport. Those are the things that matter to the people of Wales. But no, you want to do your posture politicking, and that, frankly, is not where the people of Wales are at.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

You didn't answer my question, but that's not surprising, because it's the same every single week. You have claimed that demanding more powers from the UK Government is a way to neutralise the threat of the break-up of the UK. But, in reality, you're simply playing to Plaid Cymru's agenda, aren't you? Because by constantly demanding more powers and more control over issues such as policing and justice, you're actually building the scaffolding for the very break-up of the United Kingdom that you claim to want to defend. It seems to me, First Minister, and everybody else in Wales, that there isn't a cigarette paper, actually, between your constitutional ambitions and those of Plaid Cymru. So, instead of trying to out-nationalist the nationalists by clamouring for more powers, why don't you focus on the powers you already have to turn around the crisis in our NHS, to improve our education system, and to get Wales's economy working?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Labour is the party of devolution; Plaid is the party of independence. There's the difference. It's a fundamental difference. We want to make this place work—a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom. I'm not apologising for that. What I set out in the IfG speech last week was what Wales needs next. It wasn't just rearguing the past. We've been very clear about the fact that we want to see Gordon Brown's suggestions implemented, that we want to see the independent commission on the constitution of Wales and the recommendations there delivered. Everything I said was not to do with constitutional positioning. It wasn't to do with gesture politics. It was about focusing and making sure we've got the right tools so we can deliver on the things that matter to the people of Wales. One of those is jobs.

People will have a choice in the next election. They will have to choose between whether they want chaos under Reform, which, frankly, we've seen here before—. We've had Nigel Farage’s party in here before. Seven of them were represented. By the end of the term, six of them had joined different parties. Who thinks that's going to happen again? I think a lot of us can predict what is likely to happen if they get elected. Or you can vote for that route towards independence. That is something that is on offer, and I think that is a difficult choice that the people of Wales will need to make. But we are unapologetically focused on the things that matter to the people of Wales. Today, that is about the budget. It's about the budget and things that matter to the people of Wales when it comes to their daily lives.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

You talk about the importance of jobs, and I agree with you, jobs are important, but you're failing on that front, aren't you? We've got the highest unemployment in the United Kingdom. It's gone up by almost 60 per cent since the UK Labour Government was elected, and it's not surprising, because you're heaping more and more taxes on the shoulders of the hard-working people who employ people across this country. The truth of the matter is this: Labour and Plaid Cymru are two cheeks of the same miserable face. That's what you are. You have worked together to pass budgets and legislation, and you have left Wales with the worst educational outcomes, the longest NHS waiting lists, and the lowest wages in Great Britain. So, rather than begging the UK Government for a new deal to save your political skin, why don't you apologise to the people of Wales for the old deals that you've made with Plaid Cymru, including a deal that prioritised creating 36 more politicians in Cardiff Bay, and spending £120 million on that project, instead of creating more doctors, nurses and teachers across Wales to support our public services?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

You care about public services? Why won't you vote for the budget today? That's your opportunity to demonstrate that you care. The fact is that we've had a 40 per cent increase in the number of doctors and dentists since the pandemic.FootnoteLink This is a huge increase in public services. The Welsh Labour Government has been working tirelessly to create more jobs across Wales: 12,000 supported since I became First Minister and 46,000 jobs in this Senedd term. We've been focused on getting young people into jobs. That youth guarantee has helped 62,000 young people, transforming their lives, giving them opportunities, and now we're focused, absolutely, on the economy. That's why we hosted the investment summit, with £16 billion-worth of investment announced. The key thing to remember is why we're doing this. The reason we're doing this is because we want to raise Wales out of poverty. We want to make sure the people of Wales are equipped with the resources and the skills that they need to land these jobs. We need to give them the powers to pay their bills. That's why we're focused on the economy.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

3. Will the First Minister provide an update on plans for new health and wellbeing centres in Arfon? OQ63766

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm pleased to confirm that the Welsh Labour Government has provided money to develop business cases for Waunfawr and Canolfan Lleu, and that we are awaiting further funding applications for the three proposals in Arfon.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Almost 10 years ago, when I was elected to the Senedd for the first time to represent the people of Arfon, I raised concerns about deficiencies in the provision of health and care services in Waunfawr and Llanrug in my constituency, and the entirely unacceptable conditions that patients and doctors are required to endure. Shortly afterwards, in 2017, I held a public meeting in another part of the constituency, in Dyffryn Nantlle, to discuss the dire shortcomings of the health facilities in that area. And then, in 2021, the problems in Bangor came to my attention, and I gave my support to a plan to create a brand new health and care facility in the city centre.

Two Senedd terms have passed, and these plans have not been realised. Not a single shovel has hit the ground in any of those three locations. So, will you commit to reviewing, before the end of this term, the clumsy seven-stage process for plan creation at the health boards, which is clearly not fit for purpose, and will you agree with me that this significant delay is a disgrace and is letting my constituents down, as well as the fact that the professional staff are being let down as well?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, we had very little capital funding as a Government under the Tories. That's the reality. We had very little capital funding available to develop these kinds of things in areas such as Bangor, Waunfawr and Penygroes. But these are now a priority for the north Wales regional partnership board's strategic funding programme, and the fact is, as we do now have a Government that is committed to investing in capital projects, there is funding in the integration and rebalancing capital fund that is available for these developments, and we look forward to receiving those applications and proposals from Betsi. But I do think we need to simplify the process. I think everyone would accept that. But the fact is, there is no point simplifying the process unless the funding is available. Now that funding is available for the first time in over a decade.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Of course, during that decade, the Welsh Government was the only Government in UK history ever to cut an NHS budget in real terms. However, questioning the health Secretary here in November, I highlighted the frustration and anger expressed over the lack of progress by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in developing a new purpose-built surgery in Waunfawr, Arfon, to replace the current cramped and unsuitable premises. I think that this is a region-wide issue replicated, for example, in Hanmer Surgery, south Wrexham, who continue to fight a similar battle more than 11 years after the existing building was declared unfit for purpose. The delays, excuses and errors behind this only add to the primary care shortage in north Wales, and the impact that this has on the region's accident and emergency departments.

Although creating a new surgery via progressive theoretical stages was proposed at a subsequent meeting between the health board and Hanmer Surgery, concern was expressed to me that this could once again fall victim to the health board's, quote, 'inflexible thinking and rigid administrative procedures'. When, if ever, in its few remaining weeks, will your Government ensure active engagement with primary care practitioners, patient groups and professional bodies to deliver on their evidenced calls for the development of community capacity in north Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Mark, it was your Government that starved our Government of capital investment for over a decade. That meant that we couldn't invest in these things, and now we are able, for the first time, to do that. But that's no thanks to you, and today you won't be voting for a budget that is actually putting more money into capital expenditure. The fact is that we know Betsi is challenged, but it is important, I think, to note that 58 per cent fewer people are waiting for over two years for treatment, there's an 82 per cent reduction in those waiting over three years and a 41 per cent reduction in those waiting for four hours in emergency departments. This is because that extra funding has gone in from the Welsh Government—funding that you blocked.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

4. Will the First Minister make a statement on cancer services in Wales? OQ63760

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

One in two people are likely to develop cancer sometime in their life, so improving care, treatment and cancer outcomes continues to be a top priority for our Government. Our focus is on working with the NHS to detect cancer early and improve access to treatment.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the First Minister for that response. It is frustrating to see that the latest data demonstrated that performance targets for cancer are declining once again. But in the case of patients in north Wales, the challenge of getting a diagnosis is even worse. One of my constituents, for example, is at high risk of prostate cancer, and therefore needs an urgent positron emission tomography scan, but there are delays of up to eight weeks for that scan because the contract between Wrexham Maelor Hospital, the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee and the private providers of this equipment has lapsed. That patient therefore has to travel a long way down to Cardiff for that treatment, at least eight weeks later than he should have been scanned.

How has a situation been allowed to develop where an agreement on a PET scanner draws to an end? A contract is in place for a set period of time, and the closing date of that contract is known from the beginning. Do you therefore think it's acceptable that patients who are living with an aggressive cancer such as this have to wait many weeks for scans because of administrative failings?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cancer mortality rates in Wales have improved by 17 per cent over the past 20 years. Five-year net survival rates for all cancers have improved by almost 10 percentage points over the last 15 years. Between December 2024 and November 2025, more than 170,000 people were informed they didn't have cancer. We recognise that there is a lot more to be done. I'm pleased that there have been advances in some health boards. Hywel Dda, for example, have made substantial strides and have seen over an 8 per cent improvement in performance over the past year.

When it comes to the PET scan situation, it is for Betsi as a health board to commission or deliver services, including PET scans, for its patients. We're aware of ongoing contractual issues related to the procurement of an outsourced mobile provider that means that the health board is unable to deliver PET scans in the short term. Whilst Betsi is resolving the contractual issue, it's moved quickly to ensure that patients are able to access alternative treatment.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

First Minister, prostate cancer is the most common form of cancer in men in Wales, with one in eight men here being diagnosed with the disease during their lives. Now, as you know, First Minister, the key to surviving this dreadful disease is early detection. Wales has historically been the only UK nation without a dedicated Government-led cancer awareness campaign targeted at men, unlike England and Scotland, which have had campaigns to highlight risk factors and symptoms. With this in mind, First Minister, what steps will your Government take to raise awareness, and when will we see a move back to screening men over 50, as was taking place some 30 years ago, so that we can actually make strides to improve outcomes for men affected? Surely we should be pursuing the preventative agenda, as we were many years ago.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Look, I recognise that prostate cancer is, I think, the largest cancer when it comes to men suffering from cancer, so clearly we have to take it very seriously. And we do take it seriously. It is not clinically advised, as I understand, to screen for prostate cancer. Look, we're following advice, we're following evidence. That is the way we try and do things in the Welsh Government.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yet again I'm standing here raising the issue of firefighters' health. Last month I accused the Welsh Government of dragging its feet on this issue, but I think it's becoming apparent now that there is a complete lack of urgency on the issue of firefighters dying at a young age because of the cancer linked to their service. It's been raised consistently by the Fire Brigades Union. The evidence is clear, yet months after we were told to expect advice from the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, we're still waiting. So, an honest answer today in FMQs will be really appreciated by the Fire Brigades Union and the fire service. When will that advice be published, and can we expect it before the election? The reality is very, very simple: the longer we delay, the more firefighters get diagnosed with cancer and the more firefighters die at a young age, when it could've been completely avoided.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks, Luke, and thanks for your perseverance on this issue. It is something we need to take very seriously. We need to look at the evidence. People are looking at the evidence as we speak. We're waiting for that advice, and I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to make sure that we speed up that advice and get it as soon as we can.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

5. Will the First Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting tourism in Mid and West Wales? OQ63759

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The tourism sector is a major contributor to the Welsh economy and to jobs, in particular in Mid and West Wales. We're investing millions to strengthen the tourism sector, supporting businesses to grow and improve visitor experiences. Visit Wales promotes the region year-round, and I know that there's real excitement in Powys, knowing that their county will feature prominently in the 2027 Tour de France grand départ, with Welsh Labour Government support, demonstrating to a global audience what a wonderful place Powys and Wales are to visit.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, First Minister. I was pleased to see the recent completion of a new eco-tourism development in Cardigan. Fronteifi Nature Lodges reflect the beauty of the surrounding Teifi marshes, while being committed to sustainability and also social value. All major construction was self-funded with a loan from the Development Bank of Wales tourism fund. The project incorporates green technologies and carbon-reducing measures, with local tradespeople, contractors and suppliers supplying furnishing, artwork, tree planting, ecological consultancy and guest services. First Minister, do you agree with me that this demonstrates how valuable and essential support from the Development Bank of Wales is to many small and medium-sized businesses in Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Joyce. As a Member for Mid and West Wales, I'm really pleased to see investments like Fronteifi Nature Lodges in Cardigan. This is exactly the kind of tourism development the Welsh Labour Government is backing—high quality, rooted in place, environmentally responsible and genuinely accessible. As you say, that contribution that's come via the Wales tourism investment fund, delivered through the Development Bank of Wales, has made a real difference here—a £180,000 loan, helping a strong local idea to become a reality. I think what stands out is the clear commitment to sustainability and inclusion, from low-carbon design and biodiversity improvements to accommodation that works for people with a range of needs. That matters because everybody should be able to enjoy what this part of Wales has to offer. It's a clear example of Welsh Labour supporting rural business, strengthening local economies and raising standards across tourism in Wales.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

First Minister, one way to support tourism businesses and many other businesses in Mid and West Wales is by addressing the cumulative impact of rising business rates bills that many are now facing. Yesterday I hosted an online business rates advice forum with Samuel Kurtz with around 100 businesses in west Wales, and we heard just how serious the rate revaluations are for some of these businesses. One business explained that their rateable value has increased by a staggering 84 per cent, and there were others who made it clear that the changes would be devastating, not just for their business but for the wider sector.

First Minister, the sector needs stability and support. So, can you confirm whether the Welsh Government intends to follow the UK Government's recent u-turn on business rates? Can you also tell us what action the Welsh Government will take to support those businesses in Mid and West Wales affected by business rates changes, before it's too late for some of these businesses?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We'll be providing £116 million in transitional relief over the next two years, following the 2026 revaluation. That is on top of our fully funded permanent relief schemes, which are currently £250 million to businesses and other ratepayers every year. If you, in your manifesto, are going to be offering to cut this, then you have to explain where you're going to get £300 million or so from. Nobody supported small businesses more than the Welsh Labour Government during the pandemic. We stood by them in their hour of need, and they survived as a result of the Welsh Labour Government.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. I just wanted to highlight one other tourist destination, which is actually a destination and also creates a destination in itself, which is the Heart of Wales railway line. It was featured in the National Geographic and was named the best on the planet, would you believe it, for slow travel in 2025. There are many ways that you could take that, of course—[Laughter.]—but I think the idea is that it gives you the opportunity to look as you're travelling along the Heart of Wales line.

Very seriously, the Heart of Wales line is a tourist attraction as well as taking people to tourist attractions, but it is also used by commuters as they go into various towns and young people go for education. I was pleased that last year I secured £1.25 million in the budget deal, and I'm pleased to see that that's going to continue into this year. Five trains a day now, but we need more than that: we need eight trains a day. So, could I ask you: what is your Government doing in order to ensure that public transport, including the Heart of Wales line, across Mid and West Wales is increased? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, you know that we have poured money into rail in Wales—£800 million invested, £1 billion on the core Valleys lines, brand-new trains across the whole of Wales. You can see them every day, and they’re lifting the hearts of commuters everywhere. But you’re right, there’s a real love and affection in particular for the Heart of Wales line, and your support for that £1.25 million has led to an increase in the number of trains per day, and I hope that is appreciated by people in the area.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's engagement with Cardiff and Vale University Health Board regarding the running of the University Hospital of Wales? OQ63748

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and Welsh Government officials meet with the health board to hold them to account for the delivery and safe running of their services and sites. This includes the recent public accountability meeting and the regular reviews with the chair.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, First Minister, for that answer. Again, the quality journalism at Wales Online has brought forward a report that the health board has kept under wraps in the sterilisation and decontamination unit at that hospital, where a report was finalised in July 2024, when you were health Minister, and it highlighted unacceptable levels of bullying, toxicity, criminal activity, with damaging of surgical instruments, and a complete lack of confidence in the management at the university health board to deal with these issues. In fact, you keep talking about the social partnership model that the Labour Party are proud of here in Wales. The trade union reps describe the unit as 'savage' and 'unforgiving', with some staff unable to speak freely and openly. Are you proud that a health board is running a unit in the premier hospital of Wales in such a manner? And if you aren't proud of that, what is your Government doing to make sure that these issues are addressed? Will you commit to making sure that report is publicly published, so that constituents who use that hospital can get satisfaction that measures are being taken?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I'll come on to your point, but I think it’s important to start with the good news in relation to Cardiff and Vale University Health Board. Over 231,000 people attended GP appointments, in a population of 520,000 people, in the last month. That accounts for over 44 per cent of the population. One-hundred-and-four week waits are down 72 per cent, 52-week out-patient waits are down 37 per cent, and we’ve seen a 60 per cent reduction in one-hour handovers in the last year. So, there are improvements within Cardiff, but—[Interruption.]—but there are also issues that need to be addressed. It’s not unusual for health boards to do internal reviews and for these not to be shared with the Welsh Government, or in public board meetings, especially in cases where it could prejudice any disciplinary action. Now, we understand that disciplinary action has concluded against the individuals related in this report, and we’ve asked the health board to provide us with a copy, and we are yet to receive that. But there is a new chair, a new approach, and we do expect to see improvements in that health board.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

7. How is the Welsh Government working with partners to alleviate deprivation in South Wales West? OQ63745

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The best way to alleviate deprivation and address poverty issues is to ensure that people have access to quality jobs. That is why the Government is working with others to ensure that people in Wales are trained and ready to access the jobs market. That's why we are determined to focus on job creation and the economy, and that's why events like the investment summit are so important.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thanks for that answer.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Jobs and training are important, of course. You referenced your investment summit; of course, the universities of South Wales West weren't invited, they told me, to that investment summit, so that was rather surprising. Deprivation in my region is deep-rooted, long-standing and spread across very different kinds of communities. Whether it's valley communities, coastal towns or urban neighbourhoods, challenges are distinct while outcomes can often be the same. And this reality was set out very clearly in a recent letter from the leader of Neath Port Talbot Council to the UK Government Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government. While he, of course, welcomed additional investment, he warned that programmes such Pride in Place, which restrict funding to a single contiguous neighbourhood, forces councils into making impossible choices between equally deprived communities. He also made the point that, in places like Neath Port Talbot, deprivation doesn't follow neat boundaries, and that our geography makes a one-size-fits-all approach like this particularly ill-suited. And I know similar concerns have been raised by Members across the Siambr about the way that funding frameworks as a whole are designed and delivered with limited flexibility. So, with that in mind, how is the Welsh Government working with local authorities and communities to ensure that efforts to alleviate deprivation are comprehensive rather than selective?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, first of all, let me make it clear that the vice-chancellor of Cardiff attended the investment summit and could not have commended it more highly. Let me be clear also that, unlike under the Tory Government, the Welsh Government now is able to allocate the over £500 million that previously was directed directly by the UK Government. We are working up proposals with the local authorities to make sure that we work in a co-ordinated and consistent manner in order to address those poverty issues in our communities.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

8. Will the First Minister make a statement on education funding in Blaenau Gwent? OQ63767

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

In Wales we've always recognised the value of education. That’s why we spend a higher proportion of our budget on education than they do in England. It’s why we’ve provided free breakfast clubs for 21 years to ensure our pupils are ready to learn. It’s why we provide mental health support in schools, and why, in the budget we hope to pass today, we're providing more money to local government, so that they can pass it on to schools. Blaenau Gwent will see £165 million in that budget—an increase of £7.7 million on last year.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm very grateful to you, First Minister, for that. I tabled this question because I received correspondence from the children at Coed-y-Garn Primary School in Blaenau in my constituency. You'll see that they've written to me talking about the need for greater investment in both Coed-y-Garn school itself, but also in education. They make the point in their letter that we're not simply investing in bricks and mortar—although we are—we're also investing in their futures, and we are investing in some of the most deprived communities in the country. Schools like Coed-y-Garn work hard every day to give those pupils the best possible start in life. So, First Minister, I thought it would be useful for you to speak directly, perhaps, this afternoon, to the children of Coed-y-Garn school and say to them how important you regard education to be, and why passing the budget this afternoon matters to them and their school.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thank you, Coed-y-Garn school, and thank you for approaching Alun Davies with this. I want to reassure you that the commitment of this Welsh Labour Government to education is absolute, and what we've done is increase the amount of money that is going into your school. And not just into your school, but also into supporting you, because, of course, we now have 3,569 children in Blaenau Gwent, including those in Coed-y-Garn, who now benefit from the offer of a free school meal in primary schools. That is an example of where we're making a difference. If we are re-elected in May, I want to assure those pupils that the chances of their support staff staying in those schools is going to be greater, because last weekend we made a commitment that, if Labour is re-elected in May, more money will go into education to support school support staff in Blaenau Gwent and the rest of Wales. These critical workers will receive year-round pay, not just in term time, and that will lead to a pay rise for the lowest-paid workers, including the 30,000 teaching assistants, the dinner ladies, who, I know, those children in Coed-y-Garn love, and the caretakers who make sure that they are there at all hours.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the First Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery. The first question this afternoon is from Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

1. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding the implications of the Norton v London Borough of Haringey case for the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill? OQ63721

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Rhys ab Owen. The Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill introduces sufficient safeguards to ensure that prevention, support and accommodation plans are properly assessed, kept under review and given due consideration in decisions on the suitability of accommodation, including through enhanced internal review rights.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much. The case, as you know, considered whether the failure of a local authority to ensure an assessment of the applicant's position in accordance with Part 189A of the Housing Act 1996 meant that a later determination in the process on the suitability of accommodation for an applicant was unlawful. Now, you know that the judge decided that such a failure and making such a determination was not unlawful and that the court of appeal confirmed that. Now, at the moment, the homelessness Bill would allow such a situation to arise in Wales. That would mean that the Welsh Government would go contrary to the aim of the Bill, namely to provide a sustainable system that is person-focused. Will the Counsel General work with the Cabinet Secretary for housing in order to confirm whether it is the Welsh Government's intention to follow the decision in the Norton case, or, the option that I would favour, to amend the Bill to ensure that we have a sustainable system that is person-focused? Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Rhys. We have a slight difference of opinion there, I am afraid. The judgment in Norton confirms that a failure to carry out an updated housing assessment under the Housing Act 1996 does not automatically render a decision on the suitability of accommodation unlawful. The proper question is whether the decision maker had sufficient information and whether the decision was lawful and not prejudicial to the applicant.

In Wales, local housing authorities must assess whether the accommodation is suitable for each member of the household when discharging homelessness functions. The Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill strengthens existing requirements and seeks to embed a more trauma-informed, person-centred framework to respond to homelessness. For example, the Bill requires local authorities to prepare, maintain and keep under review a prevention, support and accommodation plan, which is a plan jointly developed with the applicant and based on the assessment of the applicant's housing need. The Bill introduces new rights of review in relation to prevention, support and accommodation plans. They can be reviewed at any time while the authority is required to maintain the plan. The Bill also extends the timescales for requesting a review of the suitability of accommodation, enhancing fairness and accessibility.

So, taken together, these provisions, we think, ensure that the Bill adequately addresses the issues arising from Norton against the London borough of Haringey, in particular the concern that deficiencies in housing assessments could be given insufficient weight in suitability of the decision making. The Bill strengthens safeguards around updating assessments, suitability decisions and increases access to internal review. So, I am of the view that no amendments to the Bill are required and, indeed, it strengthens the position in Wales quite considerably.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

2. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government about the actions it can take to secure the lawful adoption of Torfaen’s Local Development Plan by 2028? OQ63722

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Torfaen County Borough Council are progressing their replacement local development plan in line with the agreed delivery agreement timetable. If the situation changes in the future, the Welsh Government will give due consideration to all appropriate options, which may require me to provide legal advice, but I have not yet done so.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thanks, Counsel General. Torfaen's replacement local development plan has been pushed back significantly, with the authority indicating that adoption is now not expected until 2028. Now, this follows earlier revisions that aimed for adoption in 2026, but the timetable had slipped again after officers required an additional six months to assess land-use options and assemble the full evidence base. Now, all of these delays are bad news for the authority, economy and local residents. We also know that Torfaen council has been working through detailed feedback from the Welsh Government on sites in the south-east of the county, alongside studies into potential strategic projects in Cwmbran. A preferred strategy was expected in October 2025, with a deposit plan scheduled a year later, and only then can the plan be submitted for examination. Given this extended sequence of delays in Torfaen, can the Counsel General outline how the Welsh Government—[Inaudible.]—revised timetable remains achievable?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Peter. The local development plans, as you know, are a vital part of the planning system in Wales. And the Welsh Government remains completely committed to their role in the planning system. They're a key tool in enabling local planning authorities to steer, guide and shape development in the future, meeting the local community's needs, increasing economic opportunities, and supporting change with local infrastructure.

Without that clear vision for the future, as you rightly say, backed up by the statutory plan, LPAs can be vulnerable to speculative development, which may not meet the needs of their local community. So, I agree entirely with you that it's very important that they go ahead.

I'm aware—I hope you're aware also—of the federation approach being followed by Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent councils, rationalising services where there is common ground, generating efficiency savings, and sharing skills and knowledge whilst delivering for their communities. We're of the view that if LPAs can come together to prepare a joint LDP, this can be a more effective and efficient mechanism, delivering more for less for the local community. But it is for the local planning authorities to determine that approach, and then it's for us to work with them to make sure that that comes forward.

Our understanding is that parallel reports are going to be taken to both councils very shortly now, in March, to pave the way for that federation approach. And then, through discussions, we understand that there's a date coming forward to make rapid progress on the development of that joint LDP. We would very much welcome a joint LDP coming forward, and, at this point in time, I have no reason to think that won't happen.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Llywydd. Counsel General, the High Court, in its judgment on ATB v. Welsh Ministers, handed down on 25 November last year, after an initial hearing on 8 October, refused leave to judicially review secondary Senedd legislation in relation to the prescription of puberty-suppressing medication. However, the court did record that the Welsh Government misunderstood the effect of the second set of regulations, which we debated in the Senedd on 10 December 2024, and that they were specifically presented in the explanatory memorandum, and in other ministerial communication, as tightening restrictions, when the opposite is true. Welsh Ministers, according to the judgment, apologised to the court and to the claimant. Can the Counsel General confirm that I've given an accurate account of the court's findings?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

This is a matter that's been discussed with the health Secretary, and not with me. I have a jurisdiction up until the point of the judgment, and then, once the judgment has happened, it would be passed over to the relevant Cabinet Secretary. I'm aware of the judgment, but I don't have that kind of detail at my fingertips, Adam. It would have been discussed with the Cabinet Secretary.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

But, Counsel General, you are responsible, aren't you, for litigation involving Welsh Ministers? Can you at least tell us when, given that the High Court has now recorded that the Senedd and the public were given an inaccurate, misleading description of these regulations—? Are you able to tell us on what date your office first became aware of the discrepancy, when the responsible Ministers were informed, or when the health Minister issued any formal correction to Members, since the judgment was handed down on 25 November 2025?

As you're aware, under the ministerial code, which governs Ministers and the Counsel General, there is a duty to correct the record where inadvertent errors have been made at the earliest available opportunity. It's been more than three months since the initial hearing, when the Welsh Government apologised in court. So, have we had a written statement? Has the explanatory memorandum been corrected? And if not, why not, and when will that happen?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I'm afraid I don't have the detail of the exact conversation. I'll have to write to the Member with the detail; I don't have it about my person. I don't recollect it just off the top of my head.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Counsel General, would you accept—and this does go to your responsibilities—given everything that I've shared, that the legislative handling of this highly sensitive, complex matter, affecting children and young people, and a particularly vulnerable group within that cohort, has been badly mismanaged? This is a serious matter that should concern Members across the Chamber, whatever their views on the underlying policy. The Government confirmed in court that there was no child rights impact assessment. The explanatory memorandum also stated there was no consultation with those directly affected and their parents or guardians. The court proceedings, as we've now discovered, make clear that you didn't even understand your own legislation, which raises serious questions about internal legal assurance and sign-off.

So, will you now, as Counsel General, undertake a full review of how this developed, how the legislation was assessed, described and laid out and reported to the Senedd, and will you lay that review before the Senedd before the end of this session? Because no Government, no Counsel General, and no Minister should ever find themselves in this position.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I think, Adam, you're rather overstating the remarks of the court and the effect on the overall judgment there, but I don't have the detail about my person, as I said, so I will write to you about that. Of course we take all of these things very seriously. We particularly take items of that sort very seriously, and I'm in discussion with the Cabinet Secretary about it. But I'm afraid I don't have the detail—the times, and so on—that you're asking for available to me right now, so I'll have to write to you.FootnoteLink

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Counsel General, before the general election, we were told that two Labour Governments, working together on a shared agenda, would deliver for Wales. Prior to the general election, Welsh Labour called for the devolution of policing, youth justice, the Crown Estate, rail and so on. Can you tell us which of those has been devolved since the general election?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I can, but I don't entirely understand what that's got to do with my portfolio at all, I'm afraid. So, I don't quite know where you're going with that.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. Well, you are responsible, obviously, for the legislative programme of the Welsh Government—

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Which is nothing to do with what you just asked me.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

—it might be news to you, but it's certainly not news to us. Last week, we saw the First Minister call for a fairer funding model, a constitutional reform Act, and more powers for Wales, including on rail. But then, earlier this month, you said that you weren't sure that Wales actually wanted powers for rail devolved from Westminster at all. So, is it a surprise that the UK Government is unwilling to devolve power when the Welsh Government itself is inconsistent in the calls that it's making?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I did not say that. I said in a much longer interview that what we would want very much was the funding to be devolved at the same time, and that devolution is a journey and not an event. So, if you're going to quote me, at least read the whole speech. Again, I'm afraid this interaction between the UK Government and the Welsh Government is not within my portfolio. You need to address your questions to the Deputy First Minister or the First Minister.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

I've got the quote here:

'"I'm not sure we're wanting the devolution of it," she said.'

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

So, always read to the end of the page.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Will you let me finish my question? It comes out of an article with the headline, 'Welsh Government accused of rail devolution—

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, and you haven't read the whole speech.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

—U-turn'. I have read the whole speech—I've read it there. You mention—

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

You haven't; you've read the journalistic report.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Llywydd, is this a question and answer session, or is this—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

This isn't a conversation between the two Members. Ask your question, Tom Giffard, and you'll have the right to reply.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Llywydd, I see very little point in asking this Counsel General very many questions, because she just fails to answer them—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Ask the question.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Ask me one in my portfolio.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

—on a consistent basis.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

If there's no point to it, then you can sit down.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

I'm asking the Counsel General to justify the remarks that she has made, but she seems unwilling to do it, even when presented with the evidence.

So, on a consistent basis, there is an inconsistent approach, isn't there, at the heart of this Welsh Government, where you've got a First Minister calling for powers to be devolved, only to be undermined by the Counsel General, who is then saying that those powers are not needed in the first place. How can we have a situation where we have a Welsh Government that is inconsistent about what it wants within it? There's no wonder, is there, that a Welsh Labour MP, an unnamed Welsh Labour MP, said there's no way policing would be devolved, despite the First Minister's calls this week. So, how can it be that this Welsh Government, this Welsh Labour Party, expects the public to take it seriously and to listen to the things that it says, when its own party is not listening to it in Westminster?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

And you're not listening to the answers I'm giving you, either. [Interruption.] It's very important not to carry on reading things out when somebody has already answered part of your question—

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Your quotes. Your quotes.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Read the whole speech—

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

I have.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

—don't read the journalistic outcome of it. I will be very clear for you: of course we want policing devolved. We want policing devolved with its budgets wholly intact and in a coherent fashion. I was asked the question, 'Do we want it right this second?' So, it's very important context, Tom Giffard. The other thing I would say is that it would be really nice, as a spokesperson for the CG, if you ever asked me anything in my own portfolio.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3 [OQ63734] has been withdrawn by Laura Anne Jones, even though she is in the Chamber, but I'll consider it withdrawn.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 4, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

4. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government about its powers to support the campaign of women born in the 1950s denied their pensions? OQ63727

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, Delyth, state pensions are the responsibility of the Department for Work and Pensions in the UK Government, and Welsh Ministers do not have devolved powers in this subject area.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you. I appreciate that point. Women born in the 1950s, though, are still waiting in limbo. Women born in the 1950s were denied their pensions, and many women have died without having the money that they are owed. Campaigners have fought long and hard for justice. It does seem that the memories of Ministers in Westminster are short. They have forgotten the promises they made before they came to power. Campaigners are calling for mediation. A petition calling for this has reached more than 30,000 signatures, and calls have been made too for an apology that acknowledges maladministration and discrimination. I realise that this is a Westminster issue, but time is running out in this Senedd. You, Counsel General, have been a strong voice on this matter and for justice, as was your predecessor. Could I ask if you could use your voice in these final weeks before the Welsh election to raise the matter with your colleagues again in Westminster? It is high time the women's voices were heard and justice attained.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, absolutely, Delyth. I always have to say this: I'm a WASPI woman myself, so I obviously have an interest in it. So, I would just like to say that. Delyth, at this point, normally tells me I'm the same age as her mother, which always cheers me up. But, yes, of course we will do that.

There's been a decision taken by the Secretary of State to consider new evidence relating to how the change in the state pension age was communicated by the Department for Work and Pensions, and the action was agreed with the WASPI campaign group on 2 December. There's a 12-week time frame for that, which I know you're aware of, so we know that that's running. We've continued to raise concerns about this matter with the UK Government since 2016, and will continue to do so. My colleague Jane Hutt does it on every occasion she can, as do the rest of us. You're absolutely right, it's a long-standing issue that requires a just and satisfactory resolution at the earliest opportunity.

We provide a range of support to assist people with that. As always, here in Wales, we try to make sure that people are assisted. We provide a range of support, generally through my colleague Jane Hutt's portfolio. We have the single advice fund and the 'Claim what's yours' national benefit take-up campaign, just to name a few, just to try and make sure that people do have some support. Because there was a large number of women who suddenly couldn't retire when they thought they could, and certainly didn't have the amount of time it would have taken for them to build up enough of a pot. So, we continue to make those points, but we have no actual power because it's not devolved.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

5. Will the Counsel General set out specific examples of how her role as Minister for Delivery has led to measurable outcomes in terms of the delivery of the government's health priorities? OQ63731

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

A question not designed to catch you out, I promise. [Laughter.]

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you very much, Lindsay. I'm delighted to answer it. As Minister for Delivery, I work alongside all our health Ministers to help drive momentum behind our health policies. So, my successes are their successes. Together, we are cutting long waiting times and delivering measurably better health outcomes for Wales. We have a process that sits behind that, and I continue to meet with my Cabinet colleagues on a monthly basis.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

Thank you. The situation on targets, I believe, remains deeply concerning. The Welsh Government has, whether we like it or not, repeatedly failed to meet its key delivery targets in health. We've seen persistent failures in accident and emergency waiting times and cancer treatment pathways. For example, the target of 62 days, I think, is appalling, and we're not even meeting that target. And breast cancer screening areas, where timely action can be the difference between life and death, again, not met. Surgeons themselves have warned that a lack of theatre capacity and staff burn-out are actively undermining processes. As the Minister for Delivery, is there any more you can do, please, to try and improve this? And—wait for it—what can we do to help? You don't hear that often.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is responsible for improvements across the health portfolio. My role as Minister for Delivery is to provide targeted support that helps drive progress. The way it works is I meet on a monthly basis with the Cabinet Secretary and his Ministers to discuss health priority areas, and we have a data-led and very honest discussion about where we are, how we're performing, and what we're constantly trying to do to identify areas that will help us improve that delivery.

You've asked for a few things there. So, what we do is we pick particular things to have a focus on. So, the First Minister was very clear that my focus to assist my health colleagues was in three specific areas: women's health hubs, which we have opening right across Wales by March; the waiting-time figures, which we have been working consistently on, and I'm delighted to say are a testament to the hard work of NHS staff and the £120 million invested by this Welsh Labour Government. There's a 23,400 drop in the overall waiting list in November, the biggest ever monthly fall, and it's the sixth consecutive month the waiting list has been cut. The number of people waiting more than two years is now down to 6,900. Provisional figures for December, which are only provisional because they're not yet announced by Stats Wales, are down to 5,300. And all health boards, except Betsi, have either no-one or less than 1 per cent of pathways waiting for more than two years for treatment, and even in Betsi the falls are much higher than they've been before. The number of people waiting more than 36 weeks for treatment is at the lowest level since April 2021. The number of people waiting for more than a year for their first out-patient appointment is at its lowest level since October 2020.

What I think you can say from that is that I in the middle have concentrated on a number of those metrics, but what you can see is a health service that's working incredibly well. I hate this 'broken' language. These are people dedicated and working really hard. The demand is extraordinary and it's rising really fast. It's something to celebrate. The boomer generation is going into the health and social care system at the moment. Those people are much younger at their age than the generation before them. They live longer, they have high expectations of what they want. We have to gear up for that. So, the system is working incredibly well and efficiently. We have to continue to invest.

Lindsay, I know you share this concern as much as I do. We have been starved of funds by an austerity-driven political ideology for 14 long years here in Wales. Now at last we have a chance to invest in our public services, and what this shows is when you invest, my goodness, you get a response from the people who work in that service, because they want to give us the services we need. So, you outlined a number of areas where we have a way to go, but it's so much better than it was this time last year across the board. And just in my own health board, for example—touch wood, because we're not out of the winter yet—we don't have ambulances queued up outside A&E, because we've implemented the 10-point plan in A&E for flow in the hospital. So, it's an improving situation, but what we need to do is continue to invest. And if our colleagues who are muttering on the benches opposite got their way, of course, they would start to cut public services again and cut the jobs of public servants. Darren Millar said that on a Sharp End programme with me only very recently—that what they wanted to do was cut more public sector jobs. So, I very much hope that we will be able to continue to invest and have a real focus on what is most helpful to get all of these services to where we'd like them to be.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

My supplementary was about how you work at tackling the waiting list, but it feels that you may have answered that already. I don't know if you've got anything else to add. Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. What we do is we have a data-driven approach to waiting lists across the various health boards. I don't drive this; my cabinet colleague Jeremy Miles drives this with his team. What I do is I assist in the interrogation of the data, and I have staff and analytical services staff who are able to get underneath that data and show us where targeted intervention is necessary and targeted assistance is necessary. So, it's a methodology for focusing on what makes a real difference in which area, and we can see that it works, because we can really see the benefits.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 6, Lindsay Whittle.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

I wait a long time for a question and, like buses, two come along at once. [Laughter.]

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

6. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Government on the legal status of the Barnett formula in relation to the £45 billion Northern Powerhouse Rail plan announced earlier this month? OQ63730

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Whilst rail infrastructure is not devolved to Wales, we do continue to make the case for a fair share of funding for rail infrastructure projects at every opportunity.

Lindsay Whittle (Plaid Cymru, Caerphilly)

Counsel General, I'm sure you'll agree with me that, once again, Wales is short-changed to the tune of an extra £1 billion of rail investment. And, as the UK Labour Government refuses to change the situation with Northern Powerhouse, HS2, Oxford to Cambridge, all of this money is spent in England for the sole benefit of England, yet regarded as England and Wales projects. Legally, what are the barriers to the Westminster Government changing this system? Or do you think this is about saving money by short-changing Wales?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, to answer your question directly, there aren't any barriers, of course. What we're concentrating on is making sure that when we get devolution of rail, we get the funding to go with it, and that's the case across all devolution journeys. I would like very much to see rail investment in Wales go up. We've had a welcome boost recently, but nothing like what we'd like. We'd absolutely like to see that investment go up. What I would say to you is that, when we take control of the railways, like with the core Valleys lines, you can see the difference that can be made. Transport for Wales is the most improved rail operator across Britain. We have really seriously pleasing rises in passenger numbers. I hope that all of the people in the Chamber have had the chance to go on some of the new and refurbished trains. They are absolutely splendid. I had the chance to travel on one of the lines very recently. I do recommend that you read the whole of the interview I gave after I'd travelled on the train, because one of the things I was able to say was that, in Wales, we have a tri-mode train, and that is the only train in Europe—and, I believe, in the world, though I'd have to check that, but certainly in Europe—that can change mode at speed. So, it can change from electric to battery to a back-up diesel, back to battery, back to electric at speed on the line. And we've developed that in Wales. We should be so proud of it. It's extraordinary. I was on the train when it swapped modes, and there's no diminution of speed. They're lovely trains and people were, without any prompting, telling me how great they were, and you can see from passenger numbers—they're going up. We have huge increases in reliability, and so on. So, there's a very good case for giving us better rail investment because, when we have it, we do really great things with it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 7, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

7. What consideration has the Counsel General given to requiring members of Welsh tribunals to take an oath or affirmation of their commitment to uphold judicial independence? OQ63720

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Statutory duties to strengthen judicial independence are a central part of our tribunal reform proposals. As part of this, we've consulted on introducing judicial oaths and affirmations for all Welsh tribunal members as a clear public expression of their respective commitment to justice and fairness and to uphold judicial independence.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

What reminded me of this, of course, was the recent Mental Health Review Tribunal for Wales (Membership) Bill. This reminded me that the majority of members of the Welsh tribunals do not take an oath. In truth, only one person has to take an oath, and that's the president of Welsh Tribunals. That's very different to the situation in the Wales and England tribunals, where the members of the judiciary all have to take an oath. Of course, taking an oath is important. It's not just symbolic; it shows the importance of justice being seen, that people believe that the judiciary is independent. As you have said, the consultation on the White Paper showed that there was 72 per cent support among members of the Welsh tribunals for taking an oath when they become a member. Now, I'm pleased that that will be included in the Bill, and we'll see that when the Bill comes into force, but, in the meantime, what steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure that the independence of Welsh tribunals and their members is clear to the public? Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. I said, and you know how much I regret this, that we haven't been able to bring forward the tribunals Bill to get it into law this Senedd term, but we continue to work on it, and I really hope that it will be an early year 1 Bill in whatever government we have after the elections. But it's not because we didn't want to; it's because it's actually quite a complicated thing to do and there are lots of interactions with other things, and a number of things keep popping up—'Events, dear boy', as they say. So, the mental health tribunal team were the same team working on the tribunals Bill, you won't be at all surprised to find. So, we have to be able to be agile. And I just want to take this opportunity to thank them once more, because most of them gave up their Christmas and had hardly any time to themselves over that period, and we did a very good job—27 days between understanding and sealing. So, that's really great.

The crux of the matter, judicial independence, is absolutely the principle that guides the way in which judicial institutions are currently supported in Wales, and it's the principle that I hope will continue to guide the way for the Wales of the future. We set out in the White Paper on tribunal reform, as you mentioned, that statutory protections for judicial independence and for the independent administration of justice should be the cornerstone of the modern tribunal system in Wales because, exactly as you say, such protections reinforce public confidence in the judiciary, ensure impartial and transparent decision making, and safeguard the integrity of Wales's emerging justice system. Responses to the White Paper showed broad and consistent support for the proposals for strengthening judicial independence. Many stakeholders welcomed the proposal for statutory duties to uphold judicial independence for a form of judicial oath or affirmation for tribunal members, and for the creation of a structurally independent statutory body to administer the new tribunal system. So, work continues to prepare the tribunals Bill and to translate those proposals into a legislative framework that will govern how our tribunals are made. I very much hope to get to the point where it would easily be a year 1 Bill for the next Senedd.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Counsel General.

3. Business Statement and Announcement

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 this afternoon is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are no changes to this week’s business. Business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'd like to request a statement from the Minister for Further and Higher Education about how the Government supports the workforce in our universities, including Swansea University in the region that I represent, and I declare an interest, Dirprwy Lywydd, given that my husband is a professor and head of the English department at Swansea University. Last week, 204 members of academic staff at Swansea University learned that they were at risk of being made redundant and that the university had plans to reduce the number of academic staff by 55 in areas including medicine, health and life sciences, science and engineering, including computer science, and the humanities and social sciences. Four hundred staff posts have already been cut through voluntary redundancies and not making appointments to 200 vacancies over the last two years.

The sector has been in a crisis across Britain, and it's in British terms that it's being discussed, but, as in so many other areas, the impact on Wales is unique. Our universities are among the Welsh organisations that have international standing and draw international talent in. The efforts to establish them are a vital part of our history and a vital part of the Senedd's history. I'd like to know what assessment the Minister has made of the impact of her actions to support universities' workforce. We have to see urgent action being taken to ensure that the contribution of these academics and our universities to our nation is safeguarded.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. This is a difficult time for the higher education sector, not only in Wales, but in the whole of the UK, and we fully appreciate the tough decisions universities are having to make. I understand that Swansea continues to engage with trade and student unions, but we do expect universities and colleges to work closely with their staff. The Minister for Further and Higher Education has made this very clear.

Working closely with staff and student unions in social partnership and also the concerns about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners are prioritised. Medr engages closely with all universities to understand their individual positions and the plans that they're putting in place to ensure their long-term financial sustainability. 'The future of tertiary education in Wales: five challenges and calls for submission' does invite stakeholders to have their say on the challenges facing the sector, which will contribute to a robust evidence base for the development of future policy.

Just finally, in recognition of the financial challenges facing higher education, of course, the Welsh Government provided an additional £28.5 million in 2024-25, bringing that total grant support for the sector to over £200 million. This comes in addition to increasing tuition fees in two consecutive years, which we expect to generate up to £21.9 million in income for 2025-26, and an additional £5 million for further education in this the final budget—extra funding at the draft budget, extra funding via Medr for 2026-27. Importantly for higher education, this is to support priorities in further and higher education.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the delivery of health services in west Wales. In a few weeks' time, Hywel Dda university health board will hold an extraordinary board meeting to consider the future model of delivery for nine of its clinical services. Any changes to those services would, of course, have a huge impact on local patients. The nine service areas affected are critical care, dermatology, emergency general surgery, endoscopy, ophthalmology, orthopaedics, stroke, radiology and urology. Trefnydd, before the health board makes any decisions, the Welsh Government has the opportunity to make it clear to the people of west Wales that it will not rubber-stamp any proposals that force patients to have to travel even further for essential services. I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the delivery of services in west Wales so we can hear directly from the Welsh Government about its views on the delivery of healthcare in the area, and so Members can question them on the health board's management of services in west Wales.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for your question, Paul Davies. It is very important that the health board is having that special meeting to look at these services, which of course are important for all your constituents in your constituency and across the health board area. Of course, the health board is very clear on the Welsh Government's priorities in terms of delivery, and, indeed, their planning responsibilities for the delivery of those services in terms of all the strategic guidelines and pathways that the Welsh Government and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care have clearly laid out. They are well aware of this, and so are the people and patients of your health board area. However, I think it's also, at this point, really useful to mention the role of Llais in terms of the patient voice, and I'm sure that they will be engaging. This is the first step, with transparent and open health board discussions.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Today is Holocaust Memorial Day, as Darren Millar has already mentioned. The industrial extermination of 6 million innocent people was based on their ethnicity, race, disability, sexuality and political opposition to the Nazis. Babies and young children, along with elderly people, were sent straight to the gas chambers, along with anybody who wasn't able to be used as slave labour.

Amidst that horror, it's extraordinary that Peter Lantos, aged five, survived deportation and a year in Bergen-Belsen, dodging starvation, rampant disease and aerial bombardment. We were able, as a result of his survival, to hear his powerful testimony yesterday in the Temple of Peace. This must inspire us all to double down on the hatred of others that was the foundation stone for the Holocaust and all the other genocides that have occurred both before and since.

The far right is active in my constituency, trying to sow hatred amongst my community. I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, for a statement on how we can double down on this, using the anti-racism action plan to counter the hatred being promoted in our schools, workplaces, pubs and sporting events, so that we can truly ensure that the nation of sanctuary is something we all respect.

Secondly, I wondered if you could have a—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Jenny, no, you've used up well over your time on your first request.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and thank you for drawing to our attention, as has already been done today, Holocaust Memorial Day 2026. There was representation across this Chamber at that very powerful event yesterday at the Temple of Peace.

The theme for this year is 'Bridging the Generations—Pontio'r Cenedlaethau'—such an important theme. We heard not only that testimony from Peter Lantos, a Holocaust survivor, but I also would praise and thank the young people from Haverfordwest high school who spoke so powerfully about their experience of the Holocaust Educational Trust, which we fund and support, and their experiences in terms of visiting Poland and Auschwitz, and then coming back. I think what was really strong was the way that the young people said that that had strengthened their determination to fight discrimination and prejudice, and indeed the way in which we tackle hate crime.

I've issued a statement today. I say that Holocaust Memorial Day is an important reminder that genocide is an extreme end point for behaviour and attitudes that start life as hate and dehumanisation. If groups in our society are blamed, treated as inferior and then targeted, we will lay the foundations for such atrocities. In the last year, we've seen horrific attacks on our religious communities and vocal hate towards those from ethnic minorities or born outside the UK.

I think this absolutely strengthens the backing and endorsement of our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. I thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee, a cross-party committee, for not only supporting the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', which is crucial in terms of tackling hate, but also to recognise the community cohesion work that the committee is undertaking. Also, we're about to report on the work that's been chaired by Gaynor Legall in terms of tackling this. I think we have to recognise that this is a real responsibility. We have our hate support centre—we fund it—and our hate and community tensions board, bringing everyone together, all backing the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health and care on the availability and provision of mental health beds, please, particularly looking at north Wales? I have cases coming into my office where people suffering from mental health conditions have to be placed in beds over the border, a long way away from their homes, somewhere in England. I'll give you one example where a man has come in and he's discovered that he has cancer. As a result of that, his mental health deteriorated significantly to the point where the health board had to place him for a few nights' care, and he'd had to go to Birmingham. This gentleman is a first-language Welsh speaker. All his family are first-language Welsh speakers. He is more comfortable communicating through the medium of Welsh. But he can't get the necessary service because he'd been placed in Birmingham, because of the shortage of beds in north Wales, and in Wales more generally. So, it would be good to have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary in order to discuss that point.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. It is important that we do hear of these situations, which are concerning, in terms of patients and access to the particular, often specialised, services that they need to be able to access. In terms of mental health services, we know that waiting times for mental health services—. I know we're shortly going on to the oral statement on NHS waiting times. I think the reduction in waiting lists for mental health services is very positive, and of course, that can also include access to beds, as well as all-important out-patient and primary care, which is so crucial for mental health services.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Yet again, we had some heavy rain last night, and yet again Gumfreston Road flooded—the B4318—from the Ritec. There's a petition live at the moment. It has had over 2,500 signatures. The local hard-working county councillor Rhys Jordan has pushed Pembrokeshire County Council for action, but has come up against a brick wall. It's becoming such an issue that a local resident, Tom Morgan, has even designed his own web app called 'Is Gumfreston flooded?' That's becoming an issue, because this is one of the main routes into Tenby, stopping people coming in. When it does flood, people get their cars caught. That takes away the fire service from doing their jobs rescuing people from this area. What Rhys Jordan is calling for is a multi-agency approach to tackle this once and for all. It's becoming a real problem and is only getting worse. So, can I call for an oral statement from the Cabinet Secretary for climate change on how he can help lead this multi-agency approach to tackle the flooding of the Ritec on Gumfreston Road once and for all?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question, Sam Kurtz. We are in the position where we're receiving hourly reports on the likely impact of storm Chandra. Of course, that requires multi-agency working. Particularly, you referenced that all-important route into Tenby and the historical situation in terms of that situation. I think it is very important to recognise that we activated level 1 response arrangements yesterday. We anticipated, of course, those strong winds and heavy rainfall. That level 1 response means multi-agency response to co-ordinate departmental input, where needed. I have to assure you that Natural Resources Wales held a flood advisory service meeting today with south Wales, Dyfed-Powys, and Gwent local resilience and flood authorities to plan for multi-agency response, so I'm sure that road also was included in that multi-agency discussion today.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I would like to ask for two statements. The first is on the Welsh Rugby Union. There are serious problems in Welsh rugby. Amongst them is the national team only beating Japan in the last two years, and the WRU unable to sell six nations tickets. Despite the WRU denial, there's a serious drop-off in players participating between the ages of 14 and 18. We know this from the failure of senior teams to have second and third teams. There are now proposals to reduce the number of top-level senior teams, with the owners of Ospreys buying Cardiff placing the Ospreys at risk. We also know, despite attendance not being officially released, there's a lack of spectators at regional games. Economically, the Ospreys are important to the Swansea economy. Can we have a Welsh Government statement regarding recent discussions between the Welsh Government and the WRU on the future of Welsh rugby, including the Ospreys?

I would also like to ask for a Government statement on exempting certifiable compostable bio-based carrier bags from the ban on single-use carrier bags. I would like an explanation on why biodegradable bags are not as environmentally friendly as reusable bags.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Mike Hedges. Two very important questions this afternoon. We've strongly encouraged the WRU to make sure it listens carefully to the views of clubs, players and all those with an interest in proposals to change the professional game in Wales. And although the future of the game is a matter for the WRU, we all want to see Wales thrive again as a successful rugby nation.

On your second question, in relation to carrier bags, of course, we all know, across this Chamber, that our vision is for a sustainable Wales that’s free of litter, plastic pollution and unnecessary waste. Our policies are designed to encourage reuse, to help shift consumers and businesses towards that more circular economy where products are kept in use for as long as possible.

In response to concerns about consumer behaviour related to reusable carrier bags, we're formulating policies aimed at promoting their sustainable reuse. I think there's a great deal more I could say, Dirprwy Llywydd, but I will just leave it at the fact that we believe any bag that is manufactured to be used only once before being disposed of undermines our aims in relation to circular economy. Studies show that plastic shopping bags used at least five times have less environmental impact than those designed for just one use. Of course, this is about how we can learn from our pioneering work that we've done since we were the first nation, of course, in turn, to ban plastic bags. Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. May I just ask for two statements, please? One is with regard to dentistry in Llandrindod. Llandrindod Wells is a town of 6,000 people and currently has no NHS dentist at all. Little Owl was the town's only dental practice and lost their dentist just before Christmas. So, there are around 6,000 people with no NHS dentist in a rural area with very poor public transport.

The second question is in regard to climate change and rural affairs, particularly on landfills. Bryn Posteg is just 2 miles outside Llanidloes. It's a long-established landfill and waste management site that NRW has previously described as the worst performing landfill site in Wales. For over 15 years, local residents have repeatedly raised concerns about persistent smells, dangerous gas levels and the discharge. So, I'd like to know as well what action we can take on that. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. It is always disappointing, and it must be very disappointing for the people of Llandrindod Wells, when a dentist decides to reduce or end their NHS commitment. When this happens, it's important to put on the record again that the funding for the lost provision remains with the health board for it to replace the level of NHS dental services, and it is important to note and understand that, in Powys, returned funding has been used to establish salaried general dental services, so there is a contingency in place if contracts are handed back. They've also employed a dental therapist to help ensure no children are waiting for access to dental care for an extended period. So, it's important—. The fact is that that funding for lost provision is—. The health board must now move to ensure reprocurement. I think that example for Powys, the GDS service, I'm sure, would be welcome.

On your second point—very discouraging to hear of the impact of this site, the Tylwch tip. NRW is responsible for regulating waste activities relating to landfills and for ensuring site operators fully comply with strict environmental and legal requirements. But I understand NRW is aware of an increase in odour complaints and pollution concerns from the public relating to the Bryn Posteg landfill in Llanidloes. Waste isn't being accepted anymore on the site, but unfortunately the activity on the site is as a result of the operator undertaking capping works, and that can release pockets of odour. So, NRW are conducting site visits and are in regular contact with the operator, and NRW encourages anyone with odour or pollution concerns to report to them using our online reporting form or by calling—and I will give this number—0300 065 3000. So, it is important for the Member, Jane Dodds, but others too to hear that point and that contact detail with these issues rising.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I would like to call for a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care this afternoon on the use of private facilities in order to repatriate mental health patients referred for in-patient treatment in England. Due to a lack of in-patient mental health beds in north Wales, patients are often referred to out-of-area in-patient treatment, which in my experience can be distressing for the patients. I wrote to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in late 2023, and they acknowledged, and I quote,

'the additional distress that patients can experience while they are further away from local support network or their friends or family'.

Unquote. The largest mental health hospital in Wales opened in Rhyl last year. Seren Gobaith is an independent mental health hospital that has an established referred pathway with the health board, allowing many patients to be repatriated to north Wales for treatment, and they deliver excellent results. However, the pathway has been paused by the health board, completely halting patient referrals. This means the costs are being driven up, patients' stays are longer, beds are more overstretched and patients are being sent further away from their families.

So, can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on what discussions he's had with Betsi regarding the suspensions of referrals to Seren Gobaith, whether he could provide a timetable as to whether the referral pathway will be restored and how the Welsh Government is prioritising mental health patients receiving treatment as close to home as possible?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question, Gareth Davies. We've already aired this point; it's been aired earlier on this afternoon by Mabon ap Gwynfor in terms of mental health provision in north Wales. I'm sure that the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being will want to respond to these points in terms of pathways using Seren Gobaith. I mean, there may be different and similar issues here that have been raised, so thank you again for raising that this afternoon.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Trefnydd, could I ask for a statement from the Welsh Government on the agricultural advisory panel, and in particular an update on the setting of the agricultural wages Order for 2026? In the interest of full transparency, I'm a member of Unite, as per my register of interests, and Unite is one of the organisations involved with the panel, and I was part of some of the campaigns to establish it in the first place. So, I'm familiar with the role that it plays and the importance of its work. I very much welcome—and I raised this previously in the Chamber—the Deputy First Minister's commitment to the panel and its purpose. I think now, really, is the time to have that further update, not just on the work of the panel, but the wages Order for 2026, as it's really important to rural workers across Wales. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch, Hannah Blythyn, and thank you for raising this again, as you did with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. The importance of the agricultural panel cannot be understated, and the Welsh Government's commitment to the panel and its purpose. I will ask the Deputy First Minister if he can update the Senedd on its purpose and also its progress as well. Thank you for raising it, because it came about as a result of that commitment to social partnership with agricultural workers' workforce, and it also shows our Welsh Government commitment to our rural workforce and our agricultural workforce. So, I think that's a very welcome request for an update and statement.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Trefnydd, the Welsh Government boasts about artificial intelligence growth zones in north and south Wales, promising more than £10 billion of investment and thousands of jobs—fantastic—but AI does not run on good intentions. It needs to be run on vast amounts of reliable, continuous power, and the most reliable power comes from gas. So, I'd like a statement, please, from this Welsh Government, on how it plans to expand gas production in Wales to support their AI dreams, as they will remain only dreams unless you match them with a hard dose of reality that large AI companies need gas power to succeed. I mean, what is clear is that Labour needs to drop this ridiculous net-zero obsession if Wales is to succeed in the future. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I do like it so much—[Interruption.]—I like it so much, Laura Anne Jones, when you expose dreadful Reform policy. We haven't got your manifesto yet, but we know you are in complete climate denial and against all of the important policy moves that we are taking to net zero. It is quite extraordinary, but I think we welcome these questions, because it does expose what Reform is all about. It's not about securing the well-being of future generations, which is about economic and social justice, and environmental commitments underpin that.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Trefnydd, can I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales? The A4042 is a major trunk road running through my constituency, in both Torfaen and Monmouthshire. It has recently been announced the road will see both its northbound and southbound sections closed for around six months due to major roadworks, although the traffic order will be in place for some 18 months. The affected stretch runs between Mamhilad roundabout and the Hardwick interchange at Abergavenny, a stretch of over 7.5 miles. Now, motorists are being warned to expect significant disruption and traffic restrictions throughout the duration of the works. This closure seems to coincide with other major roadworks being undertaken by Monmouthshire County Council in the area, which is going to make certain journeys throughout the county at best difficult and at some times impossible. Can I therefore ask the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales for a statement on these works, and to ask what prior discussions were had with the local authority to avoid unnecessary disruption?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, thank you, Peter Fox. I mean, clearly, major roadworks have to take place. When they are needed, they have to take place. I know that the local authorities, with those responsible for those roadworks, and, of course, that will include Welsh Government on trunk roads—. Clearly, these are planned over a period of time, unless it's an unexpected issue affecting a road, but we need to ensure that those roadworks do take place for the benefit of the economy and the local community, and I am sure that will emerge out of this planned project.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I very much welcome the statement you've made, Trefnydd, this morning on the devolution of policing. I think many of us across this Chamber were profoundly disappointed by the statement made in the House of Commons yesterday by the Home Secretary, where she dismissed and ignored the words that you have put on the record, and the speech made by the First Minister last week. Every time any serious work has been done on this, every commission that has looked at the structure of devolution in Wales has recommended the devolution of policing. The Thomas report is still not being implemented by the United Kingdom Government. This is a matter of social justice and fairness for Wales. Wales is the only country in the United Kingdom that is unable to control its own police force. It's time that Wales had equality with England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The cities of England have more authority than the people of Wales. Is it not time now for the Government to table a resolution in this place in Government time on a motion to demand the devolution of policing to this place immediately?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Alun Davies, for that question. I'm glad that you have noted the written statement that I released earlier on today on our response to the UK Government police reform White Paper, and it's important that it was also raised earlier on in First Minister's questions. What's interesting about this is that we have seen an opportunity emerging in terms of looking at the governance and accountability of policing services in Wales as a result of the announcement to abolish police and crime commissioners in Wales. Of course, I'm very grateful, as I say in my statement, for the work that they've undertaken, and they certainly have represented the voices of our communities. I'm now working with our police and crime commissioners to look at a way forward. And I've had very positive conversations, indeed, with Sarah Jones MP, at a meeting with her at the weekend. She also came to our recent policing partnership board, which I chair.

And so what we have been looking to is a Welsh Government influencing a form of governance with the Home Office during this Senedd term. So, I'm grateful to you for raising this with me, because it shows the urgency of this. This is urgent. We need that clarity before the end of the term. And I will just say, Dirprwy Lywydd, what I've said, and it's in my statement, is we need to build on what currently works. You've been hearing from chief constables, I think, over the last 24 hours, and they do recognise it's about what works and that what delivers for local people in Wales is important. But we want to strengthen the devolution settlement. I've made that absolutely clear. Our longer term goal is to devolve policing to Wales, as you say, recommended by the Thomas commission and the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales and, indeed, by the former Silk commission, Silk 2, which was a cross-party group. In fact, the Conservatives supported that at the time. So, thank you for that.

We're proud of the partnerships we've built with our policing partners in Wales, and we want to work forward constructively with them and to strengthen, as I said, the devolution settlement, leading to the devolution of policing to Wales. But it is important that we do look at this in terms of what the needs are of our local people, local communities, in terms of community safety and the opportunities that this—. Let's see this as an opportunity, not a threat, and it's certainly timely that we're discussing this today.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Two constituents have recently raised with me issues they're having with their civil service pension. Firstly, an NHS worker with 22 years of service has been trying to get a pension statement since September to try and get a mortgage. He's still waiting. And this morning, he received an e-mail that there is no timescale for him to receive a statement. A second is someone who was a Welsh Government speechwriter for a number of years. Maybe he's written a few of your speeches, Trefnydd. Last summer, as he was approaching 60 in the autumn, he contacted the civil service pension scheme. He was told the pension was approved and they would receive payment in mid November. To date, no payment has been received. Messages and telephone calls are going unanswered. And it's understood that there are 86,000 civil service pensioners in the UK waiting for their pensions. And I understand that the blame is laid on the fact that they have been moved from MyCSP to Capita. A pension is one of the benefits of working in the civil service, and I'm sure Members who'll be retiring shortly would not want to be waiting that long for their pensions.

So, Minister, can we have a Welsh Government statement to see what action the Welsh Government is taking to support civil service pensioners to receive what is rightfully theirs in a timely fashion? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys ab Owen, and thank you for raising this. I will draw it to the attention of the Permanent Secretary.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Trefnydd, I would like to request an oral statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education about the dire state of finances in higher and further education. I have been contacted by two institutions from my region—one further education college, and one university lecturer, both concerned about the impact budgets are having on their students.

In the case of Bridgend College, their concern centres around the enrolment freeze. The college currently has 285 students more than their funding allocation, as well as seeing increasing numbers of students in need of financial support. Yet cuts to funding for an employment bureau service, as well as the removal of post-16 learner travel, are placing additional strain on the students and the college.

Separately, but related, I also received correspondence about cuts to the computer science faculty at Swansea University, which will see a large number of staff redundancies. At a time when both the Welsh and UK Governments are placing great emphasis on artificial intelligence, we are seeing short-term financial decisions impacting our ability to provide further generations with the skills necessary to maximise the economic benefits of new technologies.

Therefore, Trefnydd, could the Cabinet Secretary for Education bring forward an oral statement on how these issues are being addressed in the next financial year? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. We're giving an extra £5 million for further education in this final budget. Are you going to support it, Altaf Hussain—an extra £5 million for further education in this final budget? Taken with the extra funding at the draft budget, it means that we're allocating an extra £26.5 million via Medr in 2026 to support priorities in further and higher education. Are you going to support our final budget this afternoon? Because this is the investment that we're making to address the very real challenges that have also been raised this afternoon in terms of further and higher education. But, finally, and I put this to you again, in terms of our final budget—you have a chance to vote for it this afternoon—Medr's overall budget is increasing by almost 4 per cent in 2026-27, and I think that gives you the reason for backing this budget this afternoon.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Trefnydd.

4. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care: NHS Waiting Times

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, NHS waiting times. And I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As the First Minister and I have said many times in the Siambr, cutting long waiting times is the public’s and our No. 1 priority, and this has not changed. Thanks to the hard work of the NHS all over Wales, we've made considerable progress towards that ambition over the last seven months. Long waits are falling, and the overall waiting list is coming down.

In some health board areas, in Swansea and in Powys, no-one is waiting more than two years for treatment, or more than a year for an out-patient appointment. In the other south Wales health boards, fewer than 1 per cent of people are waiting more than two years for treatment, or a year for an out-patient appointment.

In north Wales, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board still has more to do to meet its plan to cut long waiting times. But here too there has been progress.

Dirprwy Lywydd, last week, the latest referral-to-treatment times data was published for November 2025. This shows the impact of our focus on improving performance, the hard work of NHS staff, and of the £120 million the Welsh Government has made available this financial year. They are a record-breaking set of figures.

The overall waiting lists fell by 23,400 in November—the single biggest monthly fall ever recorded. This was the sixth consecutive monthly fall in the overall waiting list. Long waits of more than two years are down to 6,883—a 90 per cent reduction from April 2022. The provisional figures for December suggest this will fall further, to around 5,300. Waits of more than 52 weeks for a first appointment have fallen by 46 per cent since March 2025, and are now at their lowest level since October 2020.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

By the end of December, almost 100,000 more first out-patient appointments, over and above normal NHS activity, had been provided in the five months since August, and a further 28,000 additional out-patient appointments had been booked for January, all as a result of this Government's laser-like focus on performance, the dedication of the workforce and the additional investment this Government has made. The NHS is on target to deliver an extra 20,000 cataract operations this year, over and above its normal activity. By the end of December, management information indicates the NHS had already delivered more than 26,400 cataract procedures. That's already 9,400 more than it provided in 2023-24.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a huge scale of activity: more appointments, more tests, more treatments. We're helping people to be seen faster, cutting long waiting times and reducing the size of the overall waiting list—just as we said we would. And there's more to come as we move into the final quarter of the financial year. Dirprwy Lywydd, it has been a long journey to recover performance and to reform planned care services since the end of the pandemic. The progress of the last year has been achieved against big increases in demand for secondary care. The total number of referrals into secondary care for the year to November was 1.67 million. The referral rate over the last year was 7.1 per cent higher than the previous year.

When I committed to cutting long waiting times, I also committed to working with the NHS to reset the system, to create a more sustainable service to improve access to treatment in the long term. At the moment, about 30 per cent to 40 per cent of pathways are closed after the first out-patient appointment. That tells us that large numbers of people probably didn't need to be referred to hospital and could have been cared for in a better way. So, we're extending national funding to strengthen the all-Wales integrated referral process, and we're moving even more care and resources into the community, so there are more alternatives to a hospital referral. Secondary care should only be for those people who absolutely need specialist expertise. This is a key principle of our community by design policy.

We've seen what can be achieved by the successful reforms we've made to eye care. Enhanced optometry services are now widely and easily available in the community, and we're doing the same for hearing services. But we are going further, and providing even more services in local communities. We're also empowering people to manage their own health. Instead of routinely scheduling post-treatment appointments, we'll help people to have a say in whether they need follow-up care, and give them the option to initiate appointments if and when they're needed. We already have two models—see on symptom and patient-initiated follow-up—to support this. This will help free up out-patient clinics for even more new patients to be seen.

There is progress in the system. We now need every health board to match the best performances. In this year's national planning guidance, for the second year, I set mandatory actions for the NHS to ensure they deliver improved productivity, building on the ministerial advisory group recommendations. I've been clear with the NHS that we need to ensure, in the interests of patients and the public, that we maximise the efficiency of our services and make every £1 count. This is a core responsibility for the NHS, not an add-on. We're backing this up with an extra £120 million this year to cut waiting times, on top of the £170 million we still provide every year to help the NHS recover from the pandemic.

Dirprwy Lywydd, twenty-first century services cannot, of course, be provided with twentieth-century models of care. But there are some great examples of transformation in many parts of our country. Cardiff and the Vale health board is delivering seven cataract procedures on an operating list as a minimum. This is one of our key enablers and it makes a huge difference. Cwm Taf Morgannwg has reorganised its planned orthopaedic services onto one site. It has protected services, improved efficiency, doubled the number of patients it is able to see, and reduced the length of stay for those patients. But, again, there is variation across Wales, and, where progress is not yet where we need it to be, the Welsh Government is acting.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the last quarterly special measures report for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board showed it had made progress in some areas, but it also highlighted concerns about the length of time people are waiting for planned care. The chair and chief executive asked the Welsh Government for additional support to help improve planned care performance, and we've stepped in with a team of experts to work alongside the board to drive improvements. I now expect to see the health board meeting its plans for improvement.

In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank all those working so hard delivering those extra appointments and treatments, including on weekends and in the evenings, so we can make sure more people are cared for more quickly? Diolch yn fawr.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for that statement. I wonder: is there a glimmer of hope here? I very much hope so, because it's in all of our interests, each and every one of us, that these waiting times are reduced, so that we can allocate resources and public focus on the cases that are at the core of the health crisis, rather than the symptoms.

So, the slight progress that we see is to be welcomed. But we have to retain perspective here, because we've been here before. At the end of 2023, we saw small, similar reductions in waiting times at that point. The then health Minister, now the First Minister, gave an assurance that we had turned the corner. But, as history demonstrates, that was followed by almost 12 months of waiting lists at their highest ever levels. Despite the small amount of progress that we've seen recently, the truth is that the general waiting list is still over 50,000 higher today than when the recovery plan was launched in April 2022.

The ambition to build back better following the pandemic has not been delivered yet. Quite the contrary—waiting lists and the fact that so many resources have been provided to dealing with them has made things more difficult for the rest of the health service. As a result, the next Government will inherit a health service that is more vulnerable, under more stress, and with less public confidence in it than ever before.

Simultaneously, targets for tests, therapies, cancer treatments and eradicating the longest waits have been missed so often that they are almost meaningless. So, what assurance can the Cabinet Secretary provide to the people of Wales that these recent improvements are permanent and that they aren't another example of false hope?

A significant part of the Government's expenditure on waiting lists, over £1.5 billion during this Senedd, has been spent on buying capacity from the private sector. In the case of Betsi Cadwaladr, this has led to arrangements where no clinical staff in the health service are involved at all in the process, which raises serious questions about care standards. Can you confirm exactly how much has been spent on private sector capacity during this Senedd term, and can you guarantee that every current arrangement meets care standards within the NHS?

Also, we need to bear in mind that these are comparative successes. Two-year waiting times continue to be far higher in Wales than in England, and the comparison of patients to population is also worse. Last June, the Cabinet Secretary announced measures to reduce waiting lists by 200,000 by March 2026, which would still leave almost 600,000 on the waiting lists. The recent figures show that less than 20 per cent of that reduction has been delivered. With March swiftly approaching, is the Cabinet Secretary still confident that he will deliver that pledge? If so, what exactly will he do in order to accelerate the process?

Finally, as I've mentioned on a number of occasions, the waiting lists are a symptom of a far broader problem: the failure of the Labour Party to reform and to invest in primary, community and social care. Instead, the reliance on short-term, expensive solutions has led to less and less benefit for patients, pressure on other budgets and the neglect of public health. In fairness to the current Cabinet Secretary, I do believe that he understands these problems, but he's been disappointed by the failings of his predecessors to build a more robust system that keeps people healthy and doesn't just manage illnesses. Does he therefore agree that the next leader of our Government in Wales must break away from the current approach, deal with the emergency, the crisis in waiting times and introduce a long-term strategy in order to renew our health system?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor's questions, my message to NHS staff right across Wales is that I don't share the grudging acknowledgement that he gave to the progress that we've seen. I want to say that we are warmly welcoming the step-change that we are seeing and the work that people are putting in at all hours of the day, including on weekends, to make the progress that we are seeing in the system.

I'll take a number of the points that the Member made directly, if I may. He made a point to say that the system is still not operating at the level of pre-COVID performance, that we haven't caught up, as I think he put it, with where we were. The truth is that out-patient activity is now 22 per cent up on pre-COVID levels. Treatment capacity is 8 per cent above pre-COVID levels. So, what we are seeing is a system that is working really hard, against incredible levels of demand, in order to put itself back into balance, so that patients can be treated routinely much more quickly.

He made a point about the position for the Government in the next Senedd, and I couldn't resist hearing in his voice that he's measuring the curtains in the health department as we speak, but the truth is that whoever forms the Government in the new Senedd will be—I think he used the word 'inheriting'—inheriting a health service that is getting back into balance because of the work that we have put in over recent years, getting to grips with that backlog, making sure that out-patient activity is available in a much wider range of settings and opportunities, and putting in place, implementing, those changes that we know will make the service sustainable in the long term. That's in fact the work that we are seeing the health service delivering at the moment.

He asked important questions about the operation of outsourcing to the independent sector. This Government has been very clear that, where we ask the NHS to make use of outsourcing of that sort, it is in order to support the sustainability of the public NHS and to provide extra capacity in accordance with the strategy of the NHS to get it back into balance. I'm absolutely satisfied that those arrangements deliver the care that people in Wales are entitled to expect. He made a particular point about arrangements to manage those contracts, and I'm happy that those arrangements are appropriately in place.

He asked me what we are doing to make sure that our targets are met. I think that the statement that I made today sets out fairly fully the work that's already under way. The targets that we have set for health boards are very clear. We have capacity in the system to meet them, and I expect them to be met in accordance with the time frames that I've been setting out.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. It would be remiss of me not to focus on the situation in Betsi Cadwaladr, which has been unacceptable for too long. I know that you acknowledge that more needs to be done there, however, the latest data scandal is just another mistake in a long line of disasters at the health board, and the people of north Wales deserve better. Betsi Cadwaladr has spent longer in special measures than any NHS body in the UK's history. What assurances can the Cabinet Secretary give that this latest mistake will not happen again? And will he and the Welsh Government finally listen and launch an independent inquiry into the health board, committing to a date before the election?

Now, despite some improvement in some waiting lists, which is a welcome change, it remains the fact that, under Labour, our NHS is clearly in crisis. And this is no fault of the staff. This is due to a failure of leadership, which has led to systemic failure. Just look at the data. Your Government set a target of no patient waiting over 12 hours in A&E, yet in December there were 10,193 patients waiting 12 hours or more. When one in nine patients wait for more than half a day in A&E, you cannot claim that this is progress. You owe patients answers.

This is not a winter blip. It's structural failure, which keeps ambulances queuing, A&E departments crowded, and planned care postponed. December's A&E performance was the worst in three years. Cabinet Secretary, what immediate capacity is being looked into to lift the four-hour performance above 70 per cent and cut the amount of 12-hour breaches? The equivalent of one in four Welsh people are still stuck on an NHS waiting list, and the disparity between England and Wales is quite frankly remarkable when it comes to the two-year waits. We've heard this several times, but in Wales it's 6,883 compared with just 177 in England. That means you are 375 times more likely to wait over two years on the Welsh NHS list than an English one.

As an example, the busiest out-patient speciality in NHS Wales, ophthalmology, alone accounts for one in eight patients on the national waiting list, and still one in 20 people in Wales are waiting for an ophthalmology appointment. The First Minister, when she was Cabinet Secretary, promised to eliminate two-year waits by March 2023, and again by March 2024, and you've rebadged the target to around 8,000 by spring 2025, and we still missed it. What is the next hard deadline, and what happens if you miss it again, Cabinet Secretary, or is this pretty much academic at this moment?

The Welsh Government's failure to get to grips with the situation isn't simply a minor inconvenience for people as they wait; it is costing lives. If you dive behind these headline statistics, the picture is even more bleak. The Welsh Government's target of 75 per cent of patients starting cancer treatment within 62 days has not been met once. In fact, the latest data shows that little over half of the patients began their treatment on time. Cancer does not wait, yet, under Labour, the 62-day target is missed month after month. Surgeons warn burn-out is the highest in the UK, and theatre access is blocked with a systemic failure. Cabinet Secretary, where is the plan for surgery and oncology, and when will protected theatre performance be in place? And Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to strengthen capacity and bolster our NHS workforce? Because ultimately, if we want to see results, we need to see much more investment into our workforce and our resilience, not only for the benefits of the patients across Wales, but also our hard-working NHS staff. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, from a party that plans to vote against more money for the NHS next year, that's quite the litany of points that the Member has put to me. If he believed that those issues were genuine, he would be voting for the budget this afternoon to provide further money for the NHS in Wales, so I think that speaks for itself, I’m afraid. But I will take some of the points that he has made to me head-on.

He is right to say that the situation in north Wales is not remotely acceptable. He will not have heard me defend that position at any point that I’ve been here, but it is important to recognise that where there is progress, that should be acknowledged. There have been, even in north Wales, where there are still challenges—we would all accept that—considerable reductions in the longest waits over the course of the last year, and as he himself says, that's not about data, that's about individual patients getting seen more quickly. There is much, much further to go, but I do think it's important to acknowledge that progress as well.

He made an important point about data. He would have seen the statement that was made a few weeks ago in relation to that. The matter has been resolved, the figures have been published, they’re updated, they’re now available. There are lessons to be learned, certainly, from that, and I will be publishing a report, I hope imminently, which will set out the conclusions from the process. But the issue itself, which was always about data, not about patient care, has been resolved.

In relation to A&E, I don’t think I would accept the characterisation that the Member put on that. There are people waiting far too long in some of our A&E departments, that’s absolutely the case, but the median time for people waiting in A&E is under three hours—two hours and 56 minutes. Now, most of us would want that to be shorter, but that is the median time. People shouldn't have to wait for 12 hours or more, but that is not most people's experience by any means, and I think it really is important, when we talk about the pressures on A&E, that we have those facts as the underpinning for the discussion.

He mentioned ambulances queuing outside hospitals. This year, the number of hours lost in the back of an ambulance is half what it was the year before. Ambulance crews were able to hand over patients safely to emergency departments twice as quickly as they were the year before, because the NHS has been planning in a very proactive way to hit that target. Obviously, there’s further to go there as well, but I think his characterisation of that doesn’t do justice to the work of both the ambulance service and staff in A&E departments right across Wales.

The targets that he challenged me on are the still the Government's targets, and I responded to Mabon ap Gwynfor about the capacity in the system, the plans in the system and the timescales over which I expect those to be met.

He asked me about investment into cancer services to support an improvement in those services. We have a new Velindre cancer centre being delivered in the spring, a satellite radiotherapy unit opened at Nevill Hall Hospital, funding set aside for a fixed PET scanner for Singleton Hospital, a third fixed scanner at Glan Clwyd, and over £5 million invested in new state-of-the-art radiopharmaceutical production facilities in Newport. So, a range of investments in the system, together with the reforms that he'll be aware of to leadership in the cancer space and the reforms to the cancer pathway, and improvements in terms of cancer data.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I think we need to share hope for people waiting on waiting lists. Residents in north Wales have told me about knee operations, eye surgery and orthodontic appointments that have been brought forward. ESCAPE-pain programmes and the national exercise referral schemes have been really beneficial, as has targeting physiotherapy to help their recovery. They have been told also—. One patient told me he was told it's because of the extra funding that's gone into the system that's making a difference. But could you set out what targeted interventions are being put in place in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to bring down waiting lists there, so that they are in line with other areas? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, certainly. There's additional funding, which we've provided, to support improvements in planned care. We've provided support through NHS Wales Performance and Improvement, which is the newly reformed NHS executive, focused on helping health boards to improve performance in just this way. We've supported the health board with procurement activity, so they can make sure that the external capacity they need is available in order to support their reduction in the waiting lists. They said to us, at the end of last year, that they would appreciate additional support on some of the areas that are particularly challenged, so we agreed, as a Government, to put in a team to work with the board, with the senior executive team, to focus on areas that have been particularly challenging—planned care, in some parts, is one of those areas; some aspects of urgent and emergency care is another. That team has gone in in the last few weeks and will be working with the senior executive team.

I think the Member made an important point about acknowledging where people have a good experience. I have a range of patient stories, which I like to draw on occasionally, because it does show what people's experiences are. A number of these here are in the Betsi Cadwaladr area, talking about the support they had whilst waiting for surgery to lose weight and therefore be able to be fit for surgery when that time came. So, supporting patients as they wait for surgery is as important as speeding up those waiting times.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I'd just like to talk on behalf of the people of Powys. You'll know the issues in relation to cross-border care. Previously, we were able to access the provision of services that had shorter waiting times in the English hospitals. We're used to going over to Hereford, Shrewsbury and Telford, across Powys, in order to get our treatment. It's pretty brutal that people are hearing that the waits that they were previously told that they had are now being extended to match the waiting lists in Wales.

I've heard from one lady, assessed as urgent by her surgeon, who's still waiting after more than two years now. I'll happily write to you on that, and the health board. We've written to you, Russell George and I, to ask you about the moneys that are needed by Powys Teaching Health Board to reinstate that arrangement. I'm also writing to the health boards where the hospitals are, because there is some information that patients are telling me that those hospitals are still going to continue with the waiting lists that they had. I just wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you could comment on those issues, please, as you have done, I know, previously, but particularly the £10 million that we know Powys Teaching Health Board have told us that they need, they say, to reinstate those waiting lists. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member makes two separate points, I think. There are certainly patients waiting longer than the Welsh target of the two-year wait in hospitals in England. We have patients who are in that position, as we've discussed previously here. I don't want to see anybody waiting that long, wherever they're being treated.

The second point the Member makes I think is more challenging for all of us. The argument that she makes—I know that this isn't the intention—has the effect of this: patients in Wales are entitled to be treated within the timescales that the Government sets out; she's asking, essentially, for additional funding to be provided to one health board that provides a different level of service to every other patient in Wales. The challenge I face as health Secretary is a challenge of equity. My role, I think, is to make sure that every patient in Wales can look to have the treatment within the same standard. I think the challenge in the argument that she puts to me is that I would need to take the money from another health board to provide it to Powys health board to provide a different level of service for Powys. I know that isn't the intention in her argument, but that is the effect of it. What I want to see is a service that is there that provides equity to people in all parts of Wales, so that everybody in Wales can be seen within the same target time. That's what we're working towards, and I hope that she can see from the statement today that the service is making real strides in that direction.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In your statement, you said that in north Wales, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board still has more to do to meet its plan to cut long waiting times, but that here too there's been progress. A senior clinician at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board told me just two weeks ago that, in accordance with the Welsh Government's expectations, the health board is once again commissioning clinicians privately from elsewhere in the UK to provide evening and weekend clinics and temporarily massage down politically embarrassing waiting list figures. I've actually previously attended one of those clinics myself on a Saturday morning. Instead of reactively responding to crises, wouldn't it be better to do this openly and proactively in order to stop the crises happening in the first place?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. The focus that the Government has, as with the health board in north Wales, is making sure that patients get seen as quickly as possible. I make absolutely no apology for supporting the health board to do that and challenging the health board where that isn't happening. I'm sure that your constituents want to make sure that they get seen as quickly as possible for the treatments that they need. That is what we expect as a Government and that's what the health board is working to deliver.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Whilst of course we welcome any improvement, I think many are still waiting up to and very close to that two years. I think we're far from being at a point where we can pat ourselves on the back for the improvements made when lots of people are still waiting just under that two-year bracket. Why do you think that waiting lists are coming down so significantly better in other parts of the UK? What lessons can we learn from that, whilst, of course, keeping everything free at the point of use? Also, expanding on Jane's point on the cross-border situation, how can we really get to grips with and address that and make the most of it for the people of Wales? Yes, you say that that would improve the treatment just for those on the border, but surely that would be something that we should look into and would be helpful. Also, why aren't we using community hospitals more? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member makes comparisons with other parts of the UK; she'll remember that the NHS in England were celebrating a fall of, I think, 86,000 in their waiting lists in November last year, which I think was also a record. With a very much smaller population in Wales, we are able to say that over 24,000 people are coming off the list. So, I think, on a proportionate basis, that shows a system that is accomplishing even more here in Wales. What I will say to the Member is that although I heard the pro forma reference in her question to the health service being free at the point of use, no-one actually believes that that is Reform's policy. What I know is that every person waiting for treatment in Wales at least knows that they won't have to pay for it when their time comes.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Congratulations to you and everybody who has been involved in this amazing turnaround. To have fewer than 1 per cent of people waiting for over two years in Cardiff and Vale is really fantastic.

I want to look at your laser-like focus on performance. One of the areas where my constituents are still having to wait more than two years is to see a urologist, which is very poor compared with Swansea Bay, for example. One of them in particular, the treatment of kidney stones, is still having to go to the consultant urologist, even though we know that the treatment for kidney stones—and they are expert patients, because they've been experiencing this for many, many years—is something called lithotripsy, which is basically done by a radiologist. Yet the machine doesn't exist in Cardiff and Vale, our tertiary hospital. It's quite extraordinary, and I just want to understand that.

Secondly, when I attended the fantastic Bevan exemplars on Thursday, I learnt that 30 per cent of all people who have a stroke will experience another within five years, and if we could do targeted primary intervention, we could save ourselves £46,000, just by preventing two strokes a year. That's a lot of nurse time that could be saved. So, I wondered how much attention the Welsh Government pays to the fantastic work going on in these Bevan exemplars to ensure that they are mainstreamed.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for those questions. I would hope that her constituent will not be waiting for two years for the treatment that she referred to, but if she wants to write to me separately on that, I'd be very happy to look into that. That is not my understanding of where the performance is in the health board overall, but I'm happy to look into the detail of the point that she makes to me.

She makes a very important point about how the NHS is able to deliver services in more innovative ways or to construct pathways that deliver the sorts of benefits early on that her question refers to in the context of stroke specifically. The work of the Bevan Commission and the exemplar projects is really good evidence that, sometimes, the challenges aren't challenges of resources, they're challenges of a different approach and a more creative approach for how the existing resources in the system can be deployed more effectively and in a more preventative way. I think we are seeing, as a consequence of the focus that the Government has put for a number of years now on that importance of innovation—the funding that we've provided for many years to the Bevan Commission is one example of that—services improving. I listed some of them in my statement.

I think there is much further to go in making sure that the good practice we see in services in all health boards is identified more rapidly, built upon, disseminated and distributed in other parts of the health service more quickly. I think the challenge in doing that can be a challenge of pressure on the system sometimes, but the fundamental point, as I made in my statement, is that this can't be an add-on. It's got to be part of the core activity, the core business, the core responsibility of the NHS, and it's in getting to that that we'll see the sustainability that we need to see in the service into the future.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, James Evans.

James Evans (Independent, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, we've had this problem before about data validation. I know from my own casework that I've got a veteran in my constituency who's been waiting over two years for a hip operation. So I'd just like to ask you if you could double-check some of the figures that you have been given by the health boards to make sure they are correct. Also, Cabinet Secretary, can you outline today—? Yes, it's good that waiting lists have come down, but can you just outline how many people have left that waiting list voluntarily, either because they've gone private or for some other reason, and how many people have passed away while waiting for treatment for up to two years?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member makes a point about two-year waits. I hadn't said at any point that nobody in Wales today is waiting for more than two years, so there isn't a data question. I've set out the numbers, and they are accurate, they are validated, and they're tested by statisticians who are independent of the Government. There is a process, which he'll appreciate, that is there to make sure that we can all rely on those figures. But those—[Interruption.] He's challenging from a sedentary position. I'm responding to the question he asked when he was on his feet. The point is that patients in Powys will be treated in a number of different health board areas. I've said to the Member that the system is on the path to eliminating two-year waits. If he has an issue that he thinks I could help with specifically, then I'm happy, if he writes to me, to deal with that.

On the question of people leaving voluntarily, people will still be waiting for too long even if they're not waiting for two years, of course. What I want to see is that nobody feels that they have to go to the private sector for treatment. They should be able to wait on the waiting list and get care in a timely way. What I think we're seeing, as I've tried to outline in my statement, is a system working very hard to do that. We are seeing real progress in meeting those targets, and I know he'll want to welcome that.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

5. Debate: Welsh Rates of Income Tax 2026-27

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is a debate on Welsh rates of income tax 2026-27. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language to move the motion. Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Welsh rates of income tax were introduced in April 2019 and they apply to the non-savings and non-dividend element of income earned by Welsh residents. Welsh rates of income tax are forecast to raise nearly £4 billion in the next financial year, and they are therefore a vital element of the resourcing of the Welsh Government budget, supporting the delivery of public services in Wales.

The proposed Welsh rates for the next financial year were announced in the draft budget in October. This rate resolution, if agreed, will mean that Welsh taxpayers will continue to pay the same income tax as their counterparts in England and Northern Ireland. As Members here know, income tax devolution has resulted in significant increases in resources available to this Senedd. Welsh rates of income tax are expected to make a positive net contribution to the Welsh Government's budget of £2.7 billion in the first decade of devolution.

In 2026-27 alone, the Welsh Government's budget is £484 million higher than it would have been without income tax devolution. Moreover, the administrative foundations through which these responsibilities are discharged are secure. We work closely with His Majesty's Revenue and Customs on the administration of these responsibilities and, as highlighted in the National Audit Office's most recent report, the robust processes and governance arrangements with HMRC provide a strong basis for the effective and efficient collection and administration of Welsh rates of income tax, now and in the future.

But fiscal devolution does not stand still. Following the UK Government's budget on 26 November, further fiscal devolution is proposed, transferring to the Senedd the ability to set Welsh rates of income tax for property income. There will be a legislative consent motion on 3 February for the Senedd to debate the relevant clauses in the Finance (No. 2) Bill.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Welsh rates of income tax provide contributions that are vital to the budget that will be debated later this afternoon. Just for me to be clear, a vote against this motion is a vote to reduce next year's budget by £3.8 billion. That is why the Senedd is asked today to agree the Welsh rate resolution, which will set the Welsh rates of income tax for the next financial year, and I ask Members for their support this afternoon.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. I think it is important that we reflect, nearly a decade since we were first granted tax-raising powers, on why it's important that we see the devolution of these powers and the benefits that come to Wales. As you outlined, Cabinet Secretary, £484 million is significant, and the amount raised has made a difference. When some people oppose devolution and constantly talk Wales down, it is important that we realise why we're calling for these powers and the difference they can make to our public services and to the money available for the Welsh Government.

But it is important to distinguish between the success of WRIT in terms of raising revenue and their application as a fiscal policy lever of Government. Because on the latter point, it's clear that WRIT remain for all intents and purposes purely ornamental rather than practical, having never been used since their introduction. And it is likely that this will continue to be the case as long as the Senedd is beholden to tax bands that are wholly determined by Westminster, without our say, and totally unsuited to the nature of our tax base.

Sometimes we are criticised when we compare the powers that we have here with those of the Scottish Parliament, but when you compare, in this instance, with Scotland, whose ability to create their own income tax bands has allowed them to introduce a far more progressive framework so that over 50 per cent of the entire population pay less income tax compared with the rest of the UK, then it's a discussion that we have to have. We're being held back, and it's time to end this completely arbitrary constitutional asymmetry.

I would ask the Cabinet Secretary if there has been any progress, because obviously the UK Labour Party in the general election manifesto promised reforming Wales's fiscal architecture, but we need that full parity with the Scottish Parliament on taxation powers without delay. The Cabinet Secretary referenced the upcoming LCM debate. We are looking forward to further scrutinising the relevant details there. So, whilst not going anywhere near as far as we'd like, we do note the transfer of some of the additional powers to mirror the UK Government's reforms to property income tax. This will at least expand the potential of the WRIT as a fiscal tool for the next Welsh Government and is one step forward, but we need many more.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

The Cabinet Secretary may not be surprised to hear that we will not be supporting the Government's proposal on income tax, because we believe and we think it's right to put more money into people's pockets by cutting the basic rate of income tax by 1p, saving the average Welsh family nearly £500 a year, giving them the choice of where to spend more of their hard-earned money. An income tax cut such as this would cost just over 1 per cent of the Welsh Government's £36 billion budget, and this investment into family budgets could be funded via efficiency savings in Welsh Government departments, whilst also still protecting funding for health, schools and for farming as well.

I hear from many of my constituents that the Welsh Labour Government is wasting taxpayers' money left, right and centre. From defunct green schemes to substantial settlement payments, they've squandered hundreds of millions of pounds on vanity projects, ranging from the default 20 mph speed limit to bloated Senedd reform. It's clear that Labour and Plaid Cymru's direction of travel is to drive up taxes, putting pressure on families, workers and businesses, and in turn, at times, delivering worse services. The Welsh Conservatives' position is in contrast to that, and we urge all Members to not support the proposal in front of us today.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I would say exactly the opposite of Sam Rowlands: I urge all Members to support this today. I support keeping the Welsh rate for the purpose of calculating the basic rate of income tax at 10p in the pound, the Welsh rate for the purpose of calculating the higher rate of income tax at 10p in the pound, and the Welsh rate for the purpose of calculating the additional rate of income tax at 10p in the pound. This means that in Wales, when the rate of income tax is added to the Westminster rate, we end up with a basic rate of 20 per cent, the same as England and Northern Ireland; a higher rate of 40 per cent, the same as England and Northern Ireland; and an additional rate of 45 per cent, the same as England and Northern Ireland. The Welsh rates are payable if you live in Wales for longer than anywhere else in the UK during a tax year. When the rates are the same, there is no incentive to register in England or Wales. When the Scottish Parliament was set up in 1999 following a devolution referendum, the Scottish Parliament had the power to vary the rate of income tax by 3 per cent in either direction from the rates applied to the rest of the UK. This power was specifically authorised by the second question of the 1997 referendum. No Scottish Government—SNP or Labour—ever chose to use the variable rate and left tax rates the same as they were in the rest of the UK.

Increasing the rate raises additional money. It has been estimated that every 1p added to the basic rate brings in £220 million; every 1p to the higher rate, £33 million; and every 1p to the additional rate, £5 million. This would raise around £300 million a year. While it would be difficult for basic taxpayers to avoid paying it, additional rate taxpayers could move to being paid via dividend income or organise their lives so they are in Wales less than half the time. This would reduce the expected income. As Scotland found out, if all you can do is change the rate, it's not worth doing. If income tax was reduced, the opposite would occur, and the Welsh budget would be £300 million less. What would make a difference is devolving part or all of dividend income, or, better, treating dividend income as income tax, taxed at income tax rates. I've argued that continually, I'll keep on arguing it, and I hope eventually to get there.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much for this statement. I will be supporting this motion in the vote, but I just really wanted to make a few points, really. For six years, this Senedd has held the power to vary income tax by up to 10p in the pound, but for six years that power has gone unused, even during some of the most difficult budget settlements Wales has faced since devolution. So, I wish to ask the Welsh Government, not confrontationally but sincerely and with respect: if these powers are not used when times are hardest, when would they be used? We all recognise—and we've heard this—that the current fiscal framework is deeply flawed. Even you, Cabinet Secretary for finance, have acknowledged that these powers are severely constrained and that they limit our ability to design a tax system that genuinely reflects Wales’s needs. But while we hear this, we still have the option to put up taxes here in Wales.

We, the Welsh Liberal Democrats, want to vary the income tax level. As opposed to the Welsh Conservatives, we want to put it up, by a penny in the pound, in order to fund social care. We actually believe that if people know where their money is going to, then they will understand that we all need to support public services, and the way we support public services is in order to pay that tax. Our plan would invest £234 million to expand care in the community and create new or improved care places. We have been upfront and honest, as I've said. A small, temporary increase of just a penny on income tax is a modest contribution from those who can afford it, yet it would raise £353 million—still not enough, but it would help. To put that in perspective, that's £2.86 a week for a nurse to give. A small investment for individuals, but a huge difference for those who rely on care. I believe that the people of Wales are capable of understanding and supporting fair solutions when we lay them out clearly.

My final point relates to what Heledd has also said. Just last month, Welsh Labour expressed frustration at the lack of progress from Westminster on further devolution. We've seen no progress on devolving justice and policing, no progress on devolving the Crown Estate, no progress on reforming the Barnett formula and no progress on devolving rail infrastructure. This is another issue where we see no progress on—that is, further devolution in order to give us the powers that we need to vary income tax and to get a fair fiscal settlement for Wales. So, I'd like to hear from you, Cabinet Secretary, with respect, how we will secure those additional powers that make sure that Wales gets the fair funding it needs. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to the debate.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Mike Hedges for confirming his support for the Welsh rates of income tax motion, and for the powerful points he makes in relation to dividend income. I was grateful for Jane Dodds's support for the motion as well. She puts forward her party's policy for an increase in income tax in Wales. My party went to the Welsh electorate in 2021 with a promise not to raise Welsh rates of income tax while the COVID crisis continued and the cost-of-living pressures continued to bear down on Welsh households, and that's exactly what we have delivered in every year of this Senedd term. And while we have ambitions that go beyond the devolution of property-derived income, I hope she will agree that it was a positive sign that the UK Government, having decided on this course of action, decided that it would also wish to offer that power to the Senedd itself. That is what the LCM debate will be about—whether the Senedd wishes to take on new responsibilities in the fiscal field—and I hope that, when we have that discussion, we will have Jane Dodds's support for that as well.

I heard Sam Rowlands. Let me make it clear to colleagues that he cannot achieve his ambitions by voting against the motion this afternoon. Voting against the motion this afternoon moves the system not one inch towards the policy that he set out. The only thing that voting against this motion achieves is to ensure that there will be £3.8 billion less in the budget that Members here will be asked to vote upon later this afternoon. And I sit here, as others do, and hear time after time, from Conservative Members, demands for more expenditure on this and more investment in that, and criticising the Welsh Government for not having funded other things that they say need to be funded. And yet, this afternoon, apparently, they are going to vote to take £3.8 billion out of the resources available for the services on which they say—and I agree with them here—so many Welsh citizens depend. It is an irresponsible choice that the Conservative Party will be making this afternoon.

Can I then finally thank Heledd Fychan, Dirprwy Lywydd, for her contribution? I remember very well the debates around the Silk commission and the 2017 Wales Act. The motivation for many in the Conservative Government in Westminster at that time was that devolving fiscal powers to the Senedd would be a disciplinary measure. It would ensure that those dreadful spenders down there in Wales in future would have to watch what they did, because if our economic policies failed to match the outstanding success that theirs managed in England, we would lose money, and therefore we would have to take greater care in our ambitions. In fact, the discharge of those fiscal responsibilities in this Senedd results in nearly £0.5 billion extra in this year's budget, not less. We have out-performed our comparators in England and Northern Ireland, and that's why devolution is a success story, not the carping story that Heledd Fychan criticised.

Now, I outlined the additional powers that could come our way in relation to property-derived income, but colleagues will remember that at last year's motion on Welsh rates of income tax, I said that I would commission an external review of our current income tax powers. Researchers from the Fraser of Allander Institute in Scotland, chosen because they would bring all that Scottish knowledge and experience, and Bangor University, the experts in our own fiscal responsibilities, are currently finalising their research. I hope to be able to publish that report before the end of this term, and then that will be raw material for the next Senedd to decide how we would wish to take this success story—because devolution of income tax in Wales has been a success story—how we take that further into the future.