Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 17 December 2025

333 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda today will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language. The first question is from Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on how the Welsh Government uses investment via invest-to-save to improve productivity? OQ63599

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Over its lifetime, the invest-to-save fund has supported some 200 projects worth £200 million, including improving productivity through energy efficiency and decarbonisation. Savings are recycled and reinvested in initiatives such as hospital solar farms and green infrastructure.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? I think one of the unfortunate things is that good news and good projects don't necessarily travel particularly well in Wales. Wales has a productivity problem worse than the rest of the UK. To improve productivity, often updated equipment is needed. This includes increased investment in IT systems and updating current existing equipment by modernising. Another way to improve the process in the healthcare system is suggested by the Health Foundation, and this involves using experts in system thinking and engineers designing systems that can help to deal with complexity. Using experts who can analyse the purpose and function of a system and how it can be arranged can make the system more productive. Should more capital money be provided for invest-to-save to improve productivity, including using artificial intelligence?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for that further question and for his sustained interest in this topic. I was glad to have the opportunity, in front of the Finance Committee recently, to set out the ways in which future iterations of an invest-to-save scheme are being developed within the Welsh Government. In what Mike Hedges said, Llywydd, you can see the two key components of a successful invest-to-save scheme. You do need capital investment, but then you need the skills alongside it to take advantage of those new possibilities. The health field has a number of successful examples of previous invest-to-save schemes that exhibit both of those characteristics: digitalisation of patient records, meaning that they can be accessed more quickly and that you can use the staff resources you have more efficiently; and electronic prescribing, which cuts down on human errors and allows for greater precision in the medicines that are provided to patients. There's more that we can do. Artificial intelligence, as Mike Hedges said, provides a whole new set of possibilities, and I think a future Senedd Government would do well to look at the way in which invest-to-save techniques can accelerate their adoption.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the answer that you've given. As you know, in principle, we fully support the invest-to-save initiative, but it is something that we need to see local government and other organisations in receipt of public funds also implementing within their own organisations, not just something that is happening as a result of a fund that the Welsh Government has set up. What advice and support and encouragement are you giving to local government and to other public bodies in Wales that are responsible for their own finances to make sure that they're delivering the value for money that taxpayers expect?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, Darren Millar makes important points. When I was the last finance Minister and reviewing applications for invest-to-save funding from the Welsh Government, it was always the first question that I asked: how is this organisation using its own capacity in that same way? The Welsh Government's contribution should be in addition to the things that they do, and sometimes at the more innovative end, to allow them to use their funds on the more tried-and-tested ways of gathering those benefits. So, in my conversations with local government in particular, I'm always keen to make sure that they are looking for those opportunities. I think I highlighted one during the budget debate yesterday, which is local authority led, and that is the work that Neath Port Talbot Council has been doing to use new artificial intelligence to save social workers from the laborious business of writing up interviews when they've happened. They reckon it's freeing up 7.5 hours per worker, per week to be able to do face-to-face work with users, rather than the more mechanical side, which now artificial intelligence can do for you in real time. The health service is equally moving in that direction, where doctors doing wards will be able to take records simultaneously, not having to use their valuable clinical time to catch up on things afterwards.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

2. What consideration is the Cabinet Secretary giving to ensuring economic growth in north Wales when setting the Welsh Government’s budget for 2026-27? OQ63595

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that. Llywydd, the Welsh Government is committed to ensuring economic growth in north Wales. Across the Cabinet, measures are being taken forward, such as the AI growth zone for north Wales, approvals for the free port and investment zones, and direct support to businesses such as Siemens Healthineers. Together, they will provide economic growth for the citizens of north Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Of course, much of that follows initiatives by the previous UK Government. But although a stronger economy is needed for quality, sustainable public services, the Institute of Directors' chief economist has said business leaders are worn out from the past year's rollercoaster of uncertainty and tax increases, and that 80 per cent of business leaders feel negative about the UK autumn budget. The Federation of Small Businesses said the budget risks continuing the economic doom loop. The Confederation of British Industry said the UK budget makes it even more expensive for employers to offer jobs to young people and job seekers, and the British Chambers of Commerce said the budget risks damage to rural economies.

The economy is stagnating, contracting in September and October, inflation remains above target, annual debt payments have surged to £100 billion, and UK unemployment has soared to 5.1 per cent, and to 6.1 per cent in Wales, hit by the double whammy of two Labour Governments. All of this impacts on economic growth in north Wales and beyond. So, did you listen to these warnings? If you did, what action, if any, did you take to break this cycle of economic hopelessness and kick-start the economy of north Wales, and the whole of Wales, in acknowledgement of the concerns raised?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, my advice to the Member when he comes across people afflicted with economic hopelessness of the sort that he has described is to invite them to north Wales, where they will see an economy that is thriving, where unemployment is below the UK and the Welsh average, where wages are above the UK average, and where there are developments, from investment in Holyhead in the west, to the manufacturing readiness centre in the east. I'm baffled by the idea that the way in which you make a success of the Welsh economy is to use every opportunity that comes your way to run it down, particularly when that flies in the face of the evidence in the very region that the Member represents.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

You mentioned Siemens in Llanberis in your response. I am delighted to see the developments in Siemens, and it is wonderful to see that the company has grown to employ hundreds in the area. But we do need to bear in mind, of course, that it all started through the innovative work of a local man, Osborn Jones. So, the work done by local people in innovating and showing enterprise is crucial in developing the economy.

North Wales, of course, isn't a single homogenous region, and creating economic growth in the western, rural, Welsh-speaking areas requires specific strategies. Small and medium-sized enterprises are the backbone of Gwynedd, with businesses in community ownership flourishing across the county—something I am extremely proud of—with the cymunedoli movement providing a platform for that collaboration in this important sector. So, I would like to know from you what in the budget provides specific support for the growth of community initiatives and enterprises as an important part of developing the economy in Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Siân Gwenllian. I agree with what she said about Siemens in Llanberis. I had the privilege of meeting them in Llanberis after speaking to David Wigley, who was another important figure in the growth of the company. We know now, after the funding from the Welsh Government, that there will be 100 new posts created there, which will be higher skills posts, and with high-skilled employers as well. So, that's important for the north-west of Wales.

I have spoken more than once with Jane Hutt about cymunedoli, after the interview she had in north Wales. And there are a number of things in the budget for funding under the leadership of the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, but also in the general budget, which are supporting local businesses and small businesses to help them grow, and, as we've seen in Siemens, to create jobs for the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, which part of next year's budget do you think best supports economic growth in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, there are a series of ways in which the budget supports economic growth. I tried to explain yesterday in the budget debate that the three things that governments can most helpfully do to support that effort is through investment in skills, and the budget fully supports that through higher level apprenticeships and many other ways in which the skills investment in the Welsh population can be taken forward: investment in infrastructure—the enormous investment that we are making in rail, the investment we are making in digital connectivity here in Wales, with another £20 million investment in the budget in that area too; and in the work that we carry out to support innovation in the economy, because the jobs of the future will come from those innovative companies, those new ways of working. We heard it in Mike Hedges' earlier question. In all three ways, the budget supports economic growth.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. We heard a few moments ago from Mark Isherwood some of the concerns expressed by businesses up and down Wales as to the future of the economy here in Wales. Despite the rhetoric from the UK Labour Government to say the economy is their No. 1 focus, unfortunately, here in Wales, we've seen unemployment rising and at its highest now since 2015. We now see economic inactivity at 24.5 per cent, the highest in Great Britain. And at a time also when businesses in Wales are receiving estimated revaluations of business rates on their doormats, they're expressing to us some of the concerns around that. Indeed, today, a business got in touch with me this morning to share that their bill is going up by £117,000 next year as a result of this revaluation. And they said, 'Look, that's probably six jobs' that they're going to have to understand how they can manage in the future. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you recognise the pressures that businesses like that are under. And will you commit to, before the final budget arrives in this Senedd, reviewing what opportunities there are to minimise the pressures on businesses like this as a result of their revaluation?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the Senedd approved yesterday the plan for transitional help for people whose bills have gone up as a result of revaluation. Revaluation is a very important part of the way in which we keep business rates in tune with the changing nature of the Welsh economy. Only 20 per cent of businesses in Wales will see their bills rise more than £300 a year before other reliefs are applied. And for that 20 per cent of businesses, we will invest £116 million over a two-year period to smooth the path for those businesses who see their rates rising. I think that is a generous scheme.

I understand there will be some businesses, but they will be few in number, who will see rate rises of the sort that Sam Rowlands has identified. For those businesses, transitional rate relief will mitigate those bills by two thirds in the first year and a third in the second year. And it will be three years, the full revaluation cycle, before those businesses are asked to make the contribution that they're being asked to make, because revaluation has identified them as a sector that—. In the ups and downs of revaluation, with some businesses having falling bills and some business facing rising bills, revaluation is designed to make the system fair across the board.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response and, of course, we supported that proposal yesterday for those transition payments, because we recognised it was a take-it-or-leave-it proposal, and we think it's right and proper that that support should be given to those businesses. But what we're hearing now, of course, is that, for some of those particular businesses, it's a real challenge for them, despite the support that has initially been laid and agreed.

A particular concern comes from those in the hospitality sector who, of course, support our high streets to thrive. And you have, of course, made some particular support available to retail on our high streets, and some of the logic behind that, of course, is to mitigate against some online competition. But, of course, we know that hospitality on our high streets makes a significant difference in terms of how our high streets thrive and help our retail to thrive also.

So, with that in mind, and particularly on hospitality, it's actually the employment they offer to young people. We know that employment amongst our young people in Wales is particularly poor. There are concerns that fewer young people will go into work as a result of the pressures that they're facing. So, again, there's an opportunity before the final budget to review what may be able to support the hospitality sector in particular. Is that something that you're willing to do, to give assurance to that sector that their issues are being taken seriously and so we can see young people in the future also being employed?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I think the evidence demonstrates how seriously the Welsh Government takes the hospitality sector because, according to the industry's own analysis, two thirds of hospitality businesses in Wales pay no business rates at all, and that is because of the level of support that is already there in the system.

We will set a lower multiplier for next year for high-street retail, and that's because of two reasons. This is the first use the Senedd has ever made of these powers, and my judgment was that we should start relatively modestly in order to be able to assess the effectiveness, or otherwise, of that lever in assisting those businesses. And if it is a successful lever, then a future Senedd will want to see whether it's something that they would wish to see extended more widely. The reason why we start with high-street retail and not with hospitality is for the reason that the Member set out in his final question, Llywydd, and that is that high-street retail is uniquely exposed to online competition. You can't eat a pizza online. Your hospitality industries are there and you've got to visit them in order for them to work. That isn't true of high-street retail where there is so much online availability. That's why we haven't started with hospitality, but the use of differential multipliers, if it's a successful policy tool, will be something that a future Government will want to take into account and see if that too should be extended to hospitality.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. I want to turn to the Welsh language in terms of my questions today, Cabinet Secretary, and I'd like to ask you whether you agree that the right to use the Welsh language is vital in order to realise the goal of increasing the use of Welsh language services. Do you agree that those two things go hand in hand?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Yes, I do. Of course, people in Wales have a right to use the Welsh language. We have two official languages in Wales, English and Welsh, and providing opportunities to use the Welsh language is the best way to develop usage.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, and I'm pleased that we can find a consensus here, in terms of the current Senedd Members, on the Welsh language, and that it's not a contentious issue as it was in the past. The reason why I asked that question specifically is because the Welsh Language Commissioner has recently published her final proposals for a new enforcement policy. Some have raised concerns that there is no recognition of the key role of the enforcement work of the commissioner in realising Welsh language rights established in the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 in the new policy, and that there is a softer approach towards bodies that breach their language duties, which makes the policy appear weaker than the current policy. I understand that the new policy will be presented to you for approval, so could I ask you whether you've received a copy of the new enforcement policy? If so, what is the timetable for approving it, and how will you ensure that rights remain a central part of the enforcement policy?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Heledd Fychan, Llywydd. The commissioner sent an amended draft enforcement policy for Ministers to approve on 16 December. The next step is to consider the policy in full. I will update Senedd Members once I have considered it, and I hope that that can happen early in the new year.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Wonderful.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Just to pursue the second point raised by Heledd Fychan, I support what the commissioner is doing in working with bodies to help them to comply, with the standards and everything else that we want them to do to support the Welsh language. Of course, at the end of the day, it's important for the commissioner to use the powers that she has if she thinks that it is necessary to take those particular steps. But the first step, I think, in the commissioner's new policy is to try and work with people to persuade them and to help them to do everything that we want them to do.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much for that. Some homework over Christmas for you, then, with that reading. But, certainly, I'm pleased to hear you recognising the importance of that right, that it's central therefore.

I'll turn now to an issue that received considerable attention in the Senedd yesterday and that has angered many, namely the attitude of the Secretary of State for Wales towards the Welsh language. Do you believe that every elected member here in Wales should respect the fact that Wales has two official languages, and should commit to communicating in both languages with constituents? And could I ask, does the Welsh Government have a role in ensuring that that does happen? Because evidently we want everyone to be able to contact their elected members in both languages here in Wales, and I do regret it greatly if that is not the situation that we see.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, it's what I want to see too. I heard what the First Minister said yesterday. I want everyone who has the privilege of representing people to communicate with them in both languages. We can't require people to do it, but there are other things that we can do as Senedd Members and as a Government to highlight the fact that there are rights enjoyed by people here in Wales, and the importance of people who represent them communicating with them in the language of their choice. We have two official languages here in Wales, and for everyone representing others, I think that the best way is to use the two languages that we have.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

3. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Education about improving the provision of Welsh language education in Vale of Clwyd? OQ63608

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Gareth Davies for that question, Llywydd. I met last week with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, to discuss the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025. In the Vale of Clwyd, the Act will support Denbighshire local education authority to build on its successes in expanding Welsh language education in the county.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for that response.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

The percentage of Welsh speakers in Denbighshire fell from 24.6 per cent in 2011 to 22.5 per cent in 2021. But what's more concerning is that the fall was more pronounced in younger people. Between those years, 2011 and 2021, the number of children aged three to 15 who speak Welsh fell from 45.9 per cent to 37.3 per cent. There's also quite a large divide in the Vale of Clwyd between the south of the constituency and the coastal areas up in the north, with census data showing a divide between lower and upper Denbigh in Welsh language proficiency, which is like a microcosm in the context of the whole constituency, with low levels of Welsh speakers in the north. With commitments to reaching a million speakers by 2050, which we're all subscribed to, I'm not seeing much progress on this in my constituency, and in fact we've seen a regression. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government is working with Denbighshire County Council to ensure adequate provision of Welsh language education in the Vale of Clwyd, particularly in Rhyl and Prestatyn, where the rates are significantly lower?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I'm pleased to be able to bring some good news to the Member, because the recent evidence from Denbighshire, I think, demonstrates that the county is achieving success in many of those areas on which we will rely to turn out those confident and independent speakers of the language for the future. There are more young people than ever before in secondary education through the medium of Welsh in the county. The transfer rates from cylchoedd meithrin to primary schools are higher than across the rest of Wales. There has been a trebling in the number of children attending Welsh-medium Flying Start provision over the last three years alone, as a result of the expansion in Welsh-medium Flying Start provision. And there's strong growth in Denbighshire in late-immersion take-up. That's one of the great success stories of Welsh education in recent years. Over 50 learners in the county have benefited in the last year alone, with the development of late-immersion services in the county supported by hundreds of thousands of pounds in the Welsh Government's late-immersion grant.

We know that late immersion can be particularly important in parts of Denbighshire and elsewhere where there are fewer Welsh speakers in the first place. So, on all of those scores, I'm pleased to be able to give the Member an assurance of our shared commitment, and I echo the point that Heledd Fychan made earlier on the importance of the shared commitment that there has been across this Chamber to the Welsh language during this Senedd term, but those investments are working and ground is being gained in bringing young people into Welsh-medium education and to turn out those confident and independent speakers of the language for the future.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

The Vale of Clwyd has a long tradition of Welsh language education, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will join me in wishing a big 'Pen-blwydd hapus' to Ysgol Glan Clwyd as they will be celebrating their seventieth anniversary as the first Welsh language school in the area. Since 2021, Denbighshire County Council has received more than £537,000 from the Welsh Government's late-immersion grant, of which you were just speaking. The success of the late-immersion provision in Ysgol Glan Clwyd builds on their well-established primary provision. The local authority is also in discussions with the headteacher at Ysgol Brynhyfryd to open a Welsh-medium late-immersion unit at the school, which will be really welcome. So, Cabinet Secretary, may I ask what more can be done to spread awareness of this important provision, supporting children across Wales to move into that area and achieve bilingualism?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thanks to Carolyn Thomas for her further question, Llywydd. She's absolutely right that the success of late immersion is a story that we need to celebrate and to tell, because it does remarkable things in bringing young people who sometimes have no Welsh language capacity at all to be people who are confident enough to receive their education through the medium of Welsh in a very accelerated timetable. Earlier in the summer, I was at Ysgol Henry Richard in Ceredigion, in Tregaron, and I met there a young man who had come to Ceredigion from overseas who had, within a period of weeks, through the late-immersion system gone from having no Welsh at all to taking all of his GCSEs through the medium of Welsh. It was a genuinely remarkable story. He pointed out to me when I said how remarkable I thought it was that, of course, Welsh was now the fifth language that he spoke, because he came from a home where speaking many languages was just part of the everyday way in which people think the world can be seen and navigated.

I think the other way in which we can do more to celebrate and to draw attention is the point that Carolyn Thomas made at the start of her question, Llywydd. I'm looking forward, I'm going to be in Ysgol Glan Clwyd in January, to take part in their celebrations of their seventieth anniversary. That is a remarkable record and just demonstrates what is possible when you have people who are committed and determined to make a success of the work that they do on behalf of the language.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

4. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to ensure that Powys Teaching Health Board is adequately resourced? OQ63605

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I work with all Cabinet colleagues to maximise the resources available to them. Specific allocations within portfolios are for Cabinet Secretaries themselves to determine.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, finance Secretary. Hospitals in England have been asked to slow down treatment for Powys patients despite having capacity to treat them. This means that Powys and English patients are being treated differently, even though they’re waiting for treatment in the same hospital and being seen by the same health professionals. In your budget discussions with Plaid Cymru, finance Secretary, did you discuss if any of the £180 million allocated to the health and social care budget will be allocated to Powys Teaching Health Board to address this completely unacceptable position? If you didn't discuss this, can you confirm if any of that £180 million will be provided to Powys Teaching Health Board to allow them to buy capacity in England based on English waiting time targets, so that this completely unacceptable position and postcode lottery can end with urgency? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

My discussions with Plaid Cymru focused on the need for us to maximise the investment that we can make in Wales's most important public service, the health and social care service. As a result, there's an extra £180 million available for those purposes, over and above what was already in the budget, that will now be in the final budget when it comes to be voted upon here on the floor of the Senedd. I look forward to the Member's support for that budget, given the points that he's made this afternoon. It's then for the Cabinet Secretary for health to use the new and additional resources that will be available in that portfolio area to meet the many needs that he will be attending to. I'm quite certain that the needs of people in Powys will be part of his consideration.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I don't think you really answered my colleague Russell George's question about whether that £180 million was going to be spent in Powys Teaching Health Board. Russell George has already outlined the challenges the health board are facing. I would have thought that in the budget discussions that you had with the finance spokesperson from Plaid Cymru, some of these things may have come up in the discussion about how that money would be spent. I'd be pleased if you could try and answer the original question from Russell George: was any of that £180 million as part of that budget discussion going to be allocated to Powys Teaching Health Board?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I answered the Member's question very directly, and I'm happy to repeat it again. If we're recruiting people to support the budget when it comes in front of the Senedd on 27 January, I'll be happy to welcome the Member's support for it as well. Let me explain to him, as I explained to Russell George, the way the budget works: I am responsible for the allocation of maximum funds that I can manage to mobilise to my Cabinet colleagues for all the important things they do. The result of discussions with Plaid Cymru is that there is £180 million extra that will now be available to my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. It is for him to determine how those resources are best used, not me as the finance Secretary. My job is to get the money to the Cabinet Secretary; it's the Cabinet Secretary who is directly responsible for all the different things that we do as a Government. It's for the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that that money is put to use for the best possible purposes, and I'm quite certain that that will include consideration of the needs of the people of Powys.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

5. What business rates relief does the Welsh Government provide to support businesses in Monmouthshire? OQ63589

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Many businesses in Monmouthshire benefit from the £335 million of non-domestic rates support that is being provided in this year. That includes permanent reliefs worth over £250 million annually. Yesterday, the Senedd confirmed transitional relief for businesses following revaluation, releasing a further £116 million in support for business rates bills.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. I think we'd all agree there were terrible scenes in Monmouthshire this last couple of weeks with the flooding. I know businesses as a whole are thankful for the support that has been made available and the level of business rate relief that is currently offered. However, many still have concerns that it doesn't go far enough.

I note that following similar awful flooding in Rhondda Cynon Taf in 2024, there was a resilience scheme introduced of up to £10,000 per business to fund anti-flood measures in addition to extra business rate relief for those who qualified. While understanding this is an issue for local government, would it be possible for the Welsh Government to consider underwriting further offers of business rate relief to provide more time and support for those impacted by the flooding to recover? Would it be possible for you as Cabinet Secretary and your colleagues to make representations to the UK Government for additional allocations from the Pride in Place fund to allow communities in Monmouthshire to receive the long-term improvements and protection that they need following the flooding?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question and absolutely acknowledge the devastating impact that flooding on the scale experienced in Monmouthshire can have on individuals and businesses. Working with the council, the Welsh Government has provided grants of up to £3,000 for businesses affected in Monmouthshire, and the full package of support also includes discretionary non-domestic rates relief for affected properties. I was very glad to have the opportunity to meet the leader of the council and the chief executive, who Peter Fox will know very well, to discuss directly with them the needs of the county. I'm very happy to have further discussions with them to see whether there is further assistance that is needed beyond the immediate aftermath. I think we were focused that day on the here and now, the things that needed to be done immediately. I recognise, as we did in the case of RCT, that there is a longer tail of impact that is left by flooding on that scale, and I and my colleagues in the Welsh Government are very open to continued discussions with political and local authority leaders.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

The recent flooding in Monmouthshire was indeed very devastating. The Welsh Government flood scheme, which offers affected businesses a small pot of money, of course, was very welcome, but the scheme is discretionary, as you just said, as is the relief. It does not trigger automatic business rates relief, and councils decide relief case by case.

In England, flood-hit businesses get automatic 100 per cent business rate relief for a set period, on top of recovery grants. Rates bills are paused or written off immediately once an area is designated. In Wales, there is a delay because businesses must apply for the grant, wait for assessment and payment, and there is no automatic rates relief whilst they wait. Full rates are still due unless the council chooses that discretionary relief.

In Monmouthshire and communities across my region and Wales, traders are facing crippling repair bills, failed insurance claims and weeks of lost trade, and need that immediate help. After years of flooding, Cabinet Secretary, why has the Welsh Government still failed to put in place automatic and immediate business rate relief for flood-hit businesses? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It is because our judgment has been that it is better to work through local authorities with their knowledge of circumstances on the ground, and, instead of spreading whatever help is available in a general way across everybody, to concentrate the help where the help is most needed. That judgment is not best made in Cathays Park in Cardiff. It is best made by local authorities who are there on the ground, understand their local circumstances and are able to mobilise the help that is needed in a way that concentrates on those businesses that need the help the most.

When I met with Monmouthshire County Council, I was very impressed by the detailed understanding that they had of where the flooding had taken place, where help was most needed, and the efforts that they were making to make sure that those who needed the help the most would be prioritised. Our judgment has been that that is a preferable way of making sure that help is effective, rather than a blanket scheme that is applied so that people get the standard amount of help and it has no relation to the amount of help they may actually need.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's approach to using digital technology to help Welsh learners use the language every day? OQ63610

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Hannah Blythyn for that question. Technology can be a big boost to people's confidence in using Welsh, and ensuring that resources are available to support people who are learning Welsh is essential. The national centre has a wide range of digital resources to support learners, most of which are available free of charge.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. I am a Welsh learner—that's obvious. I have lessons here in the Senedd and I do Duolingo every day. Duolingo helps with vocabulary and learning linguistic patterns. Last month, I achieved a 1,000-day streak on Duolingo, but I would like to use other online materials sometimes, just to check my own Welsh. So, Cabinet Secretary, could I ask you what plans the Welsh Government has to use things like AI in order to support the learning of Welsh?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Hannah Blythyn for that supplementary question, and I congratulate her on the use that she makes of Welsh here on the floor of the Chamber. I had an opportunity to speak to Duolingo back in the autumn, to try and persuade them to do more with the course that they have through the medium of Welsh, which has been so successful. The current Duolingo course is almost under the CEFR A2 level, but they are doing more work to develop more courses up to B2 level as well. And having spoken to the company, I have some confidence that more investment will go into that Welsh course over the coming year.

More generally, the National Centre for Learning Welsh makes extensive use of digital technology to help Welsh learners to use the language. The centre's digital library has hundreds of bite-sized digital resources created specifically to support learners on their language journey. These resources are available free of charge to all learners. I am sure that Hannah Blythyn is aware of the work that the centre is doing, and the resources available to those who want to improve their Welsh.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you to Hannah for the question. It is good to hear you speaking Welsh in the Chamber this afternoon, Hannah.

I wanted to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, about video games in this area. The most important celebration of the Welsh language every year is the Eisteddfod, and you may know that Wrexham University this year created a digital village where people could see the Eisteddfod in Minecraft. I know that you're familiar with video games; I know that you relax on the weekend playing Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto, I have no doubt. [Laughter.] So, you will be aware of the importance of video games. How are you working with the Minister for culture in order to ensure that video games, which is a huge sector in our economy, do tell a Welsh story in terms of language and culture, especially those games that are created here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I am sure that Mr Giffard is much more familiar with the video gaming world than me. But I did have an opportunity to see the pavilion with Wrexham University at the Eisteddfod this year, and it was excellent to see the Welsh language being used in new areas like that. I agree with what Tom Giffard said about the importance, particularly for young people, of having opportunities to use the language in all aspects of their everyday lives. Jack Sargent is a lot more familiar with that world than me, and I am happy to have more discussions with him to see whether there is more that we can do to support the use of the Welsh language in terms of those new possibilities.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

7. What consideration does the Cabinet Secretary give to cross-cutting benefits for other Welsh Government departments when making decisions on the funding of particular public services? OQ63612

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Welsh Government’s budget approach reflects the influence of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the work of the Welsh spending review. This ensures funding decisions maximise value, address long-term challenges and actively take into account the cross-departmental impacts of spending decisions within individual portfolios.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Public bus transport impacts on access to health, education, employment and leisure, and buses are a vital social service as well. We've just delivered the Bus Services (Wales) Bill to enable local bus services that are safe, integrated, sustainable and efficient. We have good services across north Wales provided by the TrawsCymru network, primarily funded by the Welsh Government, including the T8, an invaluable service from Corwen to Chester through the rural villages of Clwyd and Mold. But, unfortunately, the service is currently at risk due to funding pressures, depending on the budget, and some areas might no longer be served by a bus. Will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to ensure the viability of the T8 service as we look to deliver the roll-out of franchising across north Wales? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Carolyn Thomas for that. Maybe I could just respond briefly to the general point that she makes, because although Government is inevitably divided into areas of responsibility, the overlapping impact of those is absolutely real. We talk a lot about how good housing is the foundation for young people in education, for the health of the people who live there, and the point that the Member makes about public transport is another very good example of that interconnected nature.

I know that Transport for Wales is currently considering different options for the ongoing provision of the T8 service. I know that because the Cabinet Secretary raises with me, and has throughout the budget process, the importance he attaches to investment in bus services in the context of the bus Bill. As we make our way to the very final decisions for next year's budget, I'm happy to talk with him again, because I know that he is well aware of the T8 service and its value to the local community.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 8, finally, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the UK Government's autumn budget on the people of Pembrokeshire? OQ63591

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Paul Davies, Llywydd, for that. The impact of the UK autumn budget will be felt throughout Pembrokeshire in its reductions in child poverty, increases in state pensions, improvements to the minimum wage and the national living wage. A continued commitment in that budget to renewable energy investment is also of key importance to Pembrokeshire people.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, in the Welsh Government's response to the UK Government's autumn budget, you referred to a number of investments made to Wales, such as the remediation of brownfield land at Port Talbot and investment in the semiconductor cluster in south Wales, for example. Your statement also said that £547 million is being returned to the Welsh Government to deliver a new local growth fund programme. Cabinet Secretary, the local growth fund could actually make a real difference in our local communities, and it's vital that Pembrokeshire is not left behind. Therefore, can you confirm that Pembrokeshire will receive its fair share of funding from the local growth fund? Can you tell us a bit more about the local growth fund and how it will be allocated so that all parts of Wales will benefit from this fund?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Paul Davies for that. I agree with him that all parts of Wales will want to benefit from that returned investment—an investment that is now, as it should have been all along, in the hands of this Senedd to determine. I know that my colleague Rebecca Evans is working very hard with local government interests and others to ensure a transition between current arrangements and the arrangements we will want to put in place in Wales in the future. That is quite a challenging pathway, because many local authorities have existing commitments that they will want to complete. In the longer term, the programme and prospectus that the Welsh Government sees for the local growth fund is that it will have a regional as well as a local impact, and that it will involve a wider set of partners that have been around the table in the programme that is to be replaced, making sure that we have local business interests, universities, local government and others to ensure that that significant investment, over £0.5 billion-worth of investment, is put to good use for the people of Pembrokeshire and in all other parts of Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

1. How is the Welsh Government protecting threatened species? OQ63594

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Mark. Over £54 million has been invested in this Senedd term alone via the Nature Networks fund to restore and connect habitats and protect threatened species so wildlife thrives for future generations. The environment Bill will also provide a framework to set ambitious targets, including reducing the risk of extinction of native species.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

As you and I have previously discussed, species modelling predicts that curlew will be functionally extinct in Wales by 2033, unless drastic action is taken at the scale required in order to save curlew from extinction in Wales and generate the multiple multispecies benefits this would deliver. Your written statement today on the publication of the universal layer guidance for the sustainable farming scheme states you intend to provide further information on the first phase of your optional and collaborative offer for 2026 in the spring, and will continue to evolve and strengthen this scheme throughout the transition period. However, the launch of the universal layer of the SFS alone will not be enough to restore nature and save threatened species such as curlew. You say that this will be the role of the upper tiers of the scheme. Given the urgent need for action to save curlew and many other threatened habitats and species, when will the upper tiers of the scheme therefore be available, and what contribution will they make to helping farmers to restore nature in Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Mark, thank you very much indeed, and thanks for your continued advocacy for the curlew, but also other Members in the Senedd who’ve been advocating for species in their role as species champions as well. We do have real potential within the SFS. My thanks, Mark, for flagging the potential of the optional and collaborative layers, because I’ve made repeatedly clear that this is where the business analysis makes clear that the greatest gains can be made for nature and biodiversity and climate resilience. On that basis, I think there is significant scope here as we bring forward, not only for next May at the introduction of the SFS, but as we further then develop schemes within the optional and collaborative layer to take forward in future years.

It's worth saying that we are investing at the moment £2 million in projects, as you know, through the Nature Networks fund to drive forward curlew recovery. The Wales action plan for the recovery of curlews remains a Government-supported plan as well, and we’re looking forward to the outputs of the review from 2025. I‘ve visited some of these myself, but you are absolutely right, and I’m sure you will talk to other Members as well within the Conservative group about the real potential within the optional and collaborative layers of the SFS for having a joined-up approach that can not only lead to the restoration of curlew numbers but also to other species as well. [Interruption.] The upper tiers, yes.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's strategy to reduce littering? OQ63601

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Mick. Our aim is to prevent litter occurring in the first place, and to ensure everyone takes their own responsibility as well for disposing their waste properly. By funding Keep Wales Tidy we're providing direct support to communities, and our legislation is shifting the supply chain towards more easily recyclable or reusable products as well.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. There are two blights that are affecting our communities throughout Wales and affect us across all political parties. You will be aware that the cross-party group on fly-tipping and littering has made a number of recommendations for not only legislative change, but greater enforcement, and also other measures to be implemented. This will obviously be a matter to carry forward into the next Senedd. On Thursday, 29 January at the Pierhead, the cross-party group is actually going to be having a briefing for all candidates for the Senedd across all political parties, the objective being that this is one area where I think there is complete political unity on the need for change under the things that can be done. I wonder if you could just let me have your views, firstly, on further steps that need to be taken, and, secondly, if you would obviously consider attending that event, because I think unity and engagement, if we are to resolve this problem across Wales and the criminality involved in it, is going to be required in order to do what I think the people of Wales want us to achieve for their communities.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed Mick, and my thanks to you in your role as chair but also to all the members of the cross-party group, because you are bringing a very welcome focus to this area, but also bringing forward some really actionable ideas. They are multifaceted as well; they go from sentencing down to very localised individual actions. We're watching that with great interest and we're keen to keep engaging with the cross-party group as we take our ideas forward as well. If I can make it to that event, I certainly will. I will look at my diary, but if not, I will make sure that I've got officials there as well.

To say as well, we are not standing still on this. What we can do also, in addition to the ideas being brought forward by the cross-party group, is things like the extended producer responsibility approach, where we put that polluter-pays responsibility back up the supply chain to make sure that we reduce the amount of waste being produced at source there. Then also, where there is waste being produced, the funds come down to local authorities so that they can deal with the litter problem. If we can take forward our proposals on the deposit-return scheme, then that also provides us with an opportunity as well. So, we're definitely not standing still.

But, yes, Mick, please keep with your group focusing on this issue, because I agree with you. I think it's one of those areas where there is broad cross-party support to deal with this pernicious issue of litter and fly-tipping within our local communities.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

We are blessed across Wales to have many wonderful places to visit. In Monmouthshire, as you will know very well, we have the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, the Sugar Loaf, Keeper's Pond, numerous cycle routes and other spots that attract visitors and locals alike from all over Wales. Unfortunately, most of these routes, certainly cycle routes, are plagued with litter, often full of it. The car parks for our mountains and the likes of Keeper's Pond car park—constantly we have reports of waste and litter and we all know what happens with canals, with trolleys and different things getting in them.

Cabinet Secretary, we have all worked hard to save assets, and you certainly have as well, certainly like the Mon and Brecon canal. We now need to ensure that these assets are looked after. Now, while individuals must take responsibility for their actions, how can the Welsh Government work with local authorities and all other agencies to keep these areas tidy and, importantly, ensure that littering regulations are properly enforced?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Peter. I think this shows once again that there is good cross-party support and there is no monopoly here on good ideas. I think some of the ideas coming forward from individual Members, from the cross-party group, are worth considering as we try and build that toolkit of ways that we deal with it. But we have to start from the point of individual responsibility, okay. Let's make it clear from the Senedd, as we repeatedly do, that people have to take responsibility for their own actions. There should not be littering and there should not be fly-tipping, including in beautiful places like the Mon and Brec canal. This is a huge community asset. We were delighted to be able to convene that group to look at how we could make sure that there is water in the canal. I made the somewhat obvious but, I think, important point when we brought forward the up to £400,000 a year, alongside the Canal and River Trust themselves, to make sure that there is water in the canal. The canal is nothing without the water, but it's also the banks, the pathways, the biodiversity and the beautiful environment.

But we will certainly continue to work not only with local authorities directly on this—including, by the way, through the EPR that I mentioned in my response to Mick Antoniw, and in taking forward the DRS as well—but also in the funding of things like Keep Wales Tidy, which we have stood steadfastly by, because they then work with those local groups in the local communities, empowering others to go out and deal with the issues of litter. First and foremost, let us just remind all of our constituents: don't litter. It's irresponsible. It's an absolutely pernicious activity to do. For goodness sake, let us take pride in our own local environment.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from the party spokespeople now. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy First Minister, you'll be aware that I've previously pressed you on whether you agree with the UK Climate Change Committee's recommendation to reduce livestock numbers in order to meet climate targets. To date, I've not had a clear answer. So, in the spirit of Christmas, Deputy First Minister, will you give a clear and unambiguous answer today? Do you agree with the UK Climate Change Committee's call to de-stock Welsh agriculture?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, in the spirit of Christmas, merry Christmas in advance to you as well, Sam. We recognise there has been a declining trend in domestic beef and sheep populations across the UK over the last 20 years. You will be aware of this. Whilst beef and sheep population numbers have declined, production has actually remained stable since 2008. Now, livestock numbers, as you know, are driven not by Government, but actually by the market. They can be attributed to a wide variety of factors, including changes to agricultural support schemes, wider economic policy, efficiency gains and incomes from beef and sheep farms remaining relatively low compared to other farm sectors. The Welsh Government agriculture and horticulture June survey was released on 9 December. Headline figures show a slight increase in the total number of sheep and lambs in Wales, whilst there was a small fall in the total number of cattle and calves in Wales—no significant changes from 2024. What I would say to you, Sam, is there is nothing within our sustainable farming scheme that says that the numbers of livestock will be driven down. This actually gives the ability and the autonomy to Welsh farmers to grow grass and forage and make the most of the land that we have.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Well, that was a very long-winded answer to not give an answer. But we do know where you stand, Deputy First Minister, and we know where your Labour colleagues stand, and we know where Plaid Cymru stands and the Liberal Democrats stand, because all of you voted in favour of the climate change carbon budget regulations just two weeks ago. Those regulations explicitly support the UK Climate Change Committee's fourth carbon budget, which clearly states that achieving net zero by 2050, quote,

'requires reductions in livestock numbers.'

You supported that, they supported that, the Liberals, Plaid, all of you supported that. So, why does the Welsh Government want Welsh livestock farmers, producers of some of the highest quality, most traceable and sustainable food in the world, to produce less?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

It seems you're labouring under some misapprehension here, Sam, because the pathway set out by the Climate Change Committee is not Welsh Government policy. The ambition and the target is not only Welsh Government policy, but this Senedd's desired intent as well. And that's because this Senedd has voted, Sam, not to walk away from our climate change ambitions, unlike the Conservative Party, who are now washing their hands of it and seem to be saying, 'Well, this is all too difficult.' Well, I'm sorry, but some of the predecessors in the Conservative Party were much more resolute in sticking to the plate. So, it's for us to determine, Sam, through the support through the SFS, through what we do with Hybu Cig Cymru, through what we do with investment in the red meat and livestock sector, through our investment in good, green pastureland, to make sure that we sustain that sector and also have the throughput that we need as well. But it is noticeable that the Conservatives—and thank you for reminding us—voted against that climate change budget. I mean, that's a notable moment in time, I have to say, when you have turned 180 degrees and you are washing your hands now of the need to give farmers the ability to resist the ravages of climate change.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Voting records never lie, and our voting record voted against the sustainable farming scheme, it voted against the climate change regulations, because we voted against the UK Climate Change Committee's recommendations to de-stock. We do not believe that Welsh agriculture needs to lose livestock numbers to continue to be the very best in the world. Let's also remember that there are expectations for livestock numbers to be cut within the sustainable farming scheme. Your own analysis says so. The scheme is due to start in only two weeks' time, and only today we've had further details on the universal tiers be published. This isn't last-minute Christmas shopping by the Government, it's last-minute decision making that farmers are expected to adapt to. So, Deputy First Minister, are you genuinely confident that, from 1 January, two weeks' time, everything will be fully in place, from RPW systems, data mapping, guidance, administration, everything will be ready for those farmers who wish to sign up to the SFS? And how many farmers do you expect to sign up to the SFS?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

'Yes' is the answer to that. All the work we've done over the last 12 to 18 months—in partnership, I have to say, with all those stakeholders, including the farming unions, the TFA, the environmental NGOs, whatever—plus all the work of my officials, has made sure that we are ready to go. But I recognise that the Conservatives have done everything in their power to try and undermine this way forward, a way forward that is good for the vitality of Welsh farming and gives them certainty and security going forward. All the Conservatives can do, time after time again, is try and undermine this position, and put forward—I'm trying to remember the right initials now—the FSF instead of the SFS—[Interruption.] It is ludicrous, Sam; it is ludicrous. So, everything will be in place.

And simply to say, just to counter once again, if I haven't said it often enough, when you say, within the sustainable farming scheme, that it's actually going to lead to livestock numbers reduction, can I repeat once again, for crystal clarity, before we get to the Christmas break: it is modelling and scenarios? What the SFS does is it puts in the power of farmers, with the lush green pastureland that we have, which lends itself to good rearing and good soil health and good production of red meat—. It is their ability then to actually stock according to what they think is appropriate. So, you are, let me say—how do I say this charitably, in the run-up to Christmas—peddling misinformation around the SFS, and trying to undermine it. It will be ready for delivery, and we will continue to work with all of the stakeholders to bring this forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, as it is the end of term, may I also wish you a very merry Christmas? But I do think that we are all aware that it doesn't promise to be a good new year for Welsh dairy farmers. You'll be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that milk prices have been reducing substantially recently, and it's expected that that pressure on prices will continue into 2026. Over the past weeks, we have seen dairy companies continue to cut prices, and, yesterday, there was a reduction of 4.4 per cent in the global price index for milk, which was the ninth decrease in a row. Now, this, of course, will bring a direct threat to the viability of the sector and the risk that there will be serious losses faced.

So, can I ask whether any consideration has been given by the Government to using commercial intervention measures through the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023? Can I also ask to what extent the Government has engaged with the agricultural supply chain adjudicator to ensure that the new regulations introduced this year are implemented in order to ensure a fair price for Welsh dairy farmers?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llyr. Thank you very much as well for the seasonal greetings; I reciprocate with that as well.

We've discussed this with the farming unions in the past week, two weeks, specifically with this on the agenda as we met. As you rightly point out, it is a real concern. Now, Welsh Government is committed to supporting the Welsh dairy industry to ensure it has a strong future. I'm pleased that the milk regulations will now be in place to give more certainty for business purchases and qualifying sellers in the milk sector. But these are worrying times at the moment.

Now, I'm pleased to note that the UK Government are listening to the concerns raised regarding the tiered pricing provisions within the regulations to secure more certainty for both business purchases and the qualifying sellers in the milk sector. Now, we haven't looked yet at using powers within the Agriculture (Wales) Act, but that has been raised with me by the unions, as to whether and when that might be an option to look at. So, we haven't discounted it, but we haven't thought it right at this moment to actually use it. But we're keen to work with the UK Government as well. We're also very keen to work with the supply chain and speak directly to them. I'm going to meet representatives from the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board as well to discuss falling milk prices very early in January as well. We need to keep a very close eye on this and make sure that we can give that certainty to our dairy producers that they can get through this and get to, hopefully, when the prices rise again.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response. I'm sure you'll also be aware that alarming amounts of meat and dairy products are now being illegally imported to Great Britain, for both personal consumption and sale. You'll be aware, I'm sure, of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee's report on this, which highlighted poor enforcement of personal import rules at the border and the exploitation of this vulnerability by smugglers, bringing in significant volumes of meat with relative impunity, and bringing with it, of course, a threat of importing animal diseases, such as, heaven forbid, foot and mouth disease, but also the risk of harm to human health, clearly, as well.

Now, the UK Government of course has said in its response that many of the committee's core recommendations to tackle the issue will only be considered once the sanitary and phytosanitary negotiations with the EU have been concluded and implemented. Now, that's, effectively, putting real action off until 2027 at the earliest. So, can I ask what discussions have you had with the UK Government to urge them to ramp up action on this front now, sooner rather than later, and what role is the Welsh Government playing to protect both animal and human health in the face of this risk?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Llyr, thank you very much for raising this really important issue. I can confirm to you that we have raised in inter-ministerial group meetings, quad meetings between the four nations, on this very issue, and we're not satisfied simply to wait until when the SPS agreement—. Even though that seems to be progressing well, there's still time to go on that. We need, actually, to be working together right here, right now, on those risks to biosecurity, but also food being brought in that could, indeed, have real challenges for our wider food industry. So, we have been not only articulating those views within the IMG, but we are working now with colleagues in Scotland, Northern Ireland and elsewhere to make sure that we have a co-ordinated approach in things such as spot checks—increasing the spot checks—on the different points of entry around the country to make sure that we can do everything in this transition period, not simply waiting for when we have the SPS in place.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I know you're aware of the considerable distress that continues to engulf our farming communities as a result of the UK Government's short-sighted changes to inheritance tax rules, which, obviously, are due to take effect next April. Now, I still believe strongly that the best course of action would be to completely reverse the policy, but at this stage, at least, that doesn't look as likely as some of us would wish. But it doesn't mean that we give up, does it? And it doesn't mean either that options to refine and improve what is currently an incredibly blunt policy instrument shouldn't be explored in earnest over the time that we have left to do so. And there are alternatives, which I've highlighted to you before: the clawback approach, of course, ensuring that genuine farm succession isn't penalised, while more effectively targeting inheritance tax loopholes, is one option. The second is to introduce a minimum share rule, which is something that the Centre for the Analysis of Taxation has highlighted as being less damaging when it comes to our family farms here in Wales.

Now, you've spoken a lot about the improvements in intergovernmental relations in your earlier answers today and previously. Well, maybe now's the time to show that that can deliver positive results for Wales. So, will you consider putting Wales forward to the UK Government as somewhere they can pilot or trial some of these alternative approaches instead of introducing what is currently being proposed, something that would not only be less damaging to farms and businesses here in Wales, but also ultimately could well raise more money for the Treasury?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, I think the challenge here is that—. We've repeatedly raised the need to make sure that we protect the sustainability of our characteristic Welsh farming here in Wales, and we've done it in every instance we can, both in writing and face-to-face with DEFRA Ministers. But, ultimately, of course, this is a decision—I hate to state the, you know, blindingly obvious here—for UK Treasury as well. But we've repeatedly urged the UK Government to engage with ideas out there in the Welsh farming unions about practical alternatives. And I do, by the way, actually welcome the announcement that was made in the autumn budget that, from 6 April 2026, the £1 million allowance for agricultural and business property relief will be transferable between spouses and civil partners, even if the deceased spouse or civil partner passed away before that date.

But I think the question of whether there would be a concession to allow any part of the UK to actually proceed in a different way, when it's a Treasury-based decision, I think is unlikely, to be quite frank with you. But, meanwhile, what we will continue to do is support farmers through our own initiatives that we have devolved competence in, and that includes, through Farming Connect, the support that's available there, including inheritance tax implications, but also succession review, but also subsidised business and legal advice as well. So, in all of our devolved powers, we'll do everything that we can.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's actions for tackling flooding using nature-based solutions? OQ63609

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

The Welsh Government actively promotes natural flood management and supports risk management authorities to work in collaboration with landowners and farmers to pursue nature-based solutions to reduce flood risk and to protect and enhance our natural environment.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that response.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I note that when we talk about this, often the focus is on upland areas. But, as you know, most of the region that I represent, South Wales Central, comprises heavily populated urban environments. The WWF's recently published report, 'Urban Nature Based Solutions', for flood risk mitigation shows that such solutions can also be used in urban areas. So, can I therefore ask how you are progressing this work? When you look at areas that I represent, like Pontypridd, Taff's Well and so on, how can we ensure that we're also investing in those kinds of solutions, not just the traditional defences model?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

You are absolutely right, and we are starting to see initiatives come forward now in the urban settings as well, and it's not just to do with SuDS and SABs, but wider initiatives. In fact, I was at one of Dŵr Cymru's first-funded use of natural flood management in a town environment only very recently. But we need to do more on this. I think we're in the foothills, in some ways. So, it isn't just an upland catchment, as important as that is, I have to say, and there's an immense amount of scope we can do, not just through the £2 million investment we're doing, but actually through what we can do in the, as was mentioned earlier, things like the collaborative part of the sustainable farming scheme as well, to bring farmers together in the uplands, but equally within urban environments as well, so that we use natural processes in order to alleviate flood risk. So, there is more to do, but we are leading the way in some ways. We've had people come here to Cardiff to actually see work that we're doing here, which is leading the way. But, yes, we do have more to do, and we have to focus on not just the upland upstream interventions, but down in the towns as well.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Despite technical advice note 15's aim to restrict development on floodplains, a significant policy contradiction has emerged in Wales. The Welsh Government's repeated failure to meet housing targets places substantial pressure on local authorities like Bridgend and Swansea to approve developments on marginal or flood-prone land. Up the road in Penyborfa, Powys, planning permission was recently given for 29 homes on flood-prone land by the local council, despite significant community and environmental concerns. The Welsh Government chose not to intervene on the planning decision. This short-term emphasis on housing delivery is undermining sustainable flood resilience in Bridgend and Porthcawl, reducing space for nature-based solutions such as floodplain reconnections and wetland creation. What measure is the Welsh Government implementing to balance house building with support for local authorities in protecting floodplains and promoting nature-based flood management?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Altaf, and I refer to my earlier answer in terms of promoting flood-risk management schemes that are based on nature within urban areas. But you were right in saying that if there is housing development—and we have very high and ambitious housing targets, which we are striving and succeeding, I have to say, particularly in terms of social and affordable housing, to meet there—if these are within areas that are at flood risk, there is clear policy guidance, then, on the mitigations that are needed to enable any development to go forward. It is right that local authorities are in the prime position to actually make these decisions, but with advice from NRW and from other agencies as well, to make sure that they are designed in the right way, in the right place, with sufficient mitigations against the risk of flooding. But, as I said to Heledd earlier, I think it's right as well that we—as you said, actually—enable enough space within these developments, so that we can actually enable natural flood-risk approaches to be built into these schemes as well.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Global warming is affecting the weather and we're now having regular heavy rain and flooding. We cannot stop the rain; what we can do is reduce the volume of water downstream. Trees play a crucial role in reducing flooding through various natural processes that manage water flow and improve soil absorption. Trees act as a natural umbrella, accepting rainfall with their canopies. This slows down the rain before it hits the ground, allowing for gradual absorption rather than immediate run-off. Tree roots create channels in the soil that allow water to penetrate deeper and more quickly. This reduces surface run-off and increases water storage in the soil. By anchoring the soil, trees prevent erosion and landslide, which can lead to increased run-off. Their presence helps to slow down water flow across the landscape, mitigating flash floods during heavy rains. What are the Government's plans to increase tree coverage to reduce flooding as we see the effect of global warming?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Mike, thank you for raising this and for regularly championing the role of tree planting within flood risk alleviation. Now, we do have funding priorities. We have a dedicated natural flood management grant and woodland creation grants that support woodland creation as a key measure to slow down run-off and to store water within catchments, as you describe. There's also an integrated approach with wider policies, such as encouraging riparian planting—planting alongside rivers—floodplain woodlands and buffer strips to reduce flood peaks. And wider nature-based solutions promote tree planting alongside other natural flood management interventions. So, within the sustainable farming scheme, for example, there's an ambition of planting 17,000 hectares by 2030 to support active farmers in creating woodland as well. So, there's much we can do in this area, Mike, and we're lining up the funding and the incentives to do it.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

4. How is the Welsh Government supporting access to nature for people across Wales? OQ63596

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Julie. The Welsh Government supports a number of initiatives to improve access to nature. This includes the well supported Local Places for Nature, the Community Land Advisory Service and the access improvement grant. We are committed to creating green spaces that enhance our health and well-being and provide those places that the people of Wales can really enjoy.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for the answer.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

In September, I met with my constituent who lives half of the year on a canal boat, and we had a wonderful journey along the Mon and Brec Canal, which has already been mentioned here this afternoon. And I'm absolutely delighted that the Welsh Government has committed up to £400,000 a year to maintain the water supply to the canal, because I saw the industry that was dependent on it in terms of the river trips, and was so impressed by the beauty of the area, and I really commend the Welsh Government for making this decision. So, how will the Welsh Government ensure that people will continue to have access to fantastic spots like this canal?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, thank you very much for that. I'm pleased that this is being raised on the floor today because it was a signal moment that the Welsh Government—alongside the Canal and River Trust—was able to step up and actually commit to sustaining that canal network with up to £400,000 a year funding over the next few years, but also with the investment—the capital money—that we'd put in last year to make sure that water was still flowing into the canal, because the canal, yes, is about the boating and the businesses and everything else, and it's also about the place that people go to enjoy the natural environment as well—walking, cycling along the towpath, paddling along the canal as well, which I've done myself on several occasions.

But it's bigger than that. So, during the year 2025-26, we'll be providing £19 million for the Local Places for Nature programme. And that means that we get many, many more of those green spaces for communities that we see now in every constituency. I mean, this is really putting people at the heart of that access to green spaces in their communities and the spaces that they love—and the ones that they want to turn around into beautiful spaces to enjoy. The Local Places for Nature programme now has delivered over 3,000 pollinator sites, over 100 food growing sites, over 1,000 community orchards and 110 therapeutic gardens. So, there's much more we can do. Our allotment support grants, the Green Flag Awards, which are promoting the enjoyment and awareness of those green spaces as well, and the investment in the Sustainable Landscapes, Sustainable Places programme as well. So, in many, many ways, this Government is actually committing, in words and in actions and in funds, to promoting access for everyone to green spaces in their local neighbourhoods, as well as along the canal.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, access to open and green spaces is very important—I see you've disappeared behind the lectern—especially to do with the mental health agenda and the obesity agenda. But what we do see is that a lot of our rights-of-way network is currently not accessible for many people. It's either overgrown or the paths are simply not available for people to walk on. So, I'd just like to know what work the Welsh Government is doing to make sure that we can open up the rights-of-way network so we can get those people out of their homes, out of their chairs and enjoying our open countryside across Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

James, thank you. It's a really important point. The rights-of-way network is so critically important because, for many people, it's the one where they walk out of their own homes and then access the wider areas, before they get up on the hills and so on and so forth. So, during 2025-27, we're funding a two-year capital access improvement grant totalling £4 million to local authorities and to national park authorities, indeed, that have public rights of way. So, it will enable those authorities to improve the recreational access to green and blue spaces, both for the access principle but also, as you say, for mental and physical health and well-being as well there. But, just to say as well, in the sustainable farming scheme, there's a capital project that also includes improving accessibility and the visitor experience. So, there are different ways of improving that as well. But, certainly, in terms of rights of way, our access improvement grant, totalling £4 million, is going to be a substantial investment in our basic rights of way.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

5. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with Natural Resources Wales to measure plastic in rivers? OQ63606

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Janet. We work with Natural Resources Wales through the emerging threats to water Wales group to assess risks and potential harms from plastics and microplastics in rivers. This partnership drives research, it monitors innovation and evidence-based policy development to assess and reduce plastic pollution in rivers, safeguarding ecosystems, biodiversity and public health right across Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. I attended a cross-party group the other day with my colleague Delyth, over there, and we were quite disturbed, really, to realise that there is no actual surveying of the water in rivers as there is the sea and things. Now, six of the 20 most polluted rivers in the UK are in Wales. Microplastics were found in 50 per cent of invertebrate samples. Microplastics were found in a wide range of fish organs, from gills to the brain. But it is not just our rivers where we see plastic pollution. There are also instances of plastic discs from water treatment facilities leaking into our seas and rivers. Now, whilst NRW, backed by the Welsh Government, has schemes that focus on farm pollution in rivers, this continues the narrative of the agricultural sector being seen as the main culprit, and by no means are our farmers to blame on this. We see far too much pollution from our water companies. However, NRW, I understand, does not have a routine monitoring programme to measure plastic or microplastics actually in the water in the rivers, rather than the fish and the invertebrates. So, given that this is a really important issue now, will you work with NRW to bring in these routine surveys? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Janet, thank you for that. It is a really important issue, and I think there is a way forward on this. So, you are right in saying that at present there is limited data to quantify the contribution of microplastics from each potential source, and the current evidence indicates that some microplastics, notably those found in drinking water, may come from treatment and distribution systems for tap water and/or bottling of bottled water. But, currently, as you point out, there is no regulatory requirement to monitor microplastics in freshwater and drinking water. Therefore, NRW do not routinely monitor for plastics in water. However, the Welsh Government and NRW jointly convened an emerging threats to water quality working group to look at this very issue, to look at microplastics as part of the group's remit in addition to other chemical threats, because it is not the only one.

So, the most recent UK report on microplastics in drinking water was published by the UK water industry research group in 2019, and they found that more than 99.9 per cent of microplastics were removed from drinking water and waste water through the water company treatment processes. Nevertheless, we recognise that more research is needed to understand the full impact of plastic pollution on human health and the environment. So, the work that we are now doing will support the appropriate regulatory standards and monitoring requirements, going forward. So, more work to be done, but we are getting on with it.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'm really glad that Janet has raised this issue, and it was a great event that we were at recently. Plastics are found everywhere in our rivers, particularly from car tyres, clothing and paint. Animals can mistake those plastics for food. Birds try to eat plastic packaging, and fish can ingest microplastics. Professor Steve Ormerod's research has found that microplastics are ingested by one in every two insects in the Taf, the Usk and the Wye rivers. Chicks can be fed 8,000 fragments of microplastic before fledging. Songbirds and those living near riverbanks eat hundreds of pieces of plastic a day, mainly from those insects. Research that was sent to me by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds shows dippers ingest around 200 particles of plastic every day. Now, clearly, this plastic litter is infecting our wild world. What can be done to raise awareness of these alarming statistics, please, to start to stem that tide? Young people, in particular, are looking to us for answers.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, and in fact I agree. Young people, in fact, are some of the most fantastic advocates now of the need to tackle plastic pollution. But there's much that can be done. And, in fact, I've got to say, credit to devolution, it's in this place, in this amphitheatre of democracy, that we've led the way on this, whether it's been through the plastic bags levy many years ago, whether it's through the legislation we took through on single-use plastic products. I have to say as well that it's the investment that we're putting in to pioneering schemes within the UK such as the recycled fisheries products as well, where we are, by the van load, gathering fishing nets and plastics from the fishing industry. There is much that we can do. And much of the motivation for this is coming from when we go out to schools, and eco councils and so on, and they tell us. I have schools write to me in their dozens, saying, 'Will you, please, do more on this?' So we're keen to do it.

It also ties into, I have to say, what we do with our waste management and recycling and reuse of plastics, and where we can also go next with the circular economy, so we have less of it ending up in the environment, and more of it being reused for useful products that create jobs here in Wales. So, again, this is an area that we're leading in, but there's much to do. But young people, I have to say, are the ones who keep our feet to the fire on this.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much to Janet Finch-Saunders for raising this important question. I listened carefully to your answer, and I think it's shocking that this isn't being measured at the moment and, from your answers, I think there isn't any plan to measure plastic pollution in rivers. Because, as Delyth Jewell has said, clearly plastics do pollute our rivers. It's very hard to set a target if you don't know what the current state of affairs is. As an analogy, if you are helping a friend to run a marathon in three months' time, you cannot plan for that effectively if you don't know how far they can run right now. So, bearing in mind the environmental targets, how can we possibly do that and set targets without monitoring at the moment? Are you worried that this isn't possible without current or future monitoring? Diolch yn fawr.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, Rhys, first of all, thanks for championing this repeatedly here within the Senedd. But just to counter what you're saying, it's not simply that there isn't monitoring, there's a lack of data on the analysis of what the impact of microplastics is within the various systems that we have. So, that's one of the areas that we're working on. We need to actually ascertain that in order to know what the scale of the issue is, alongside, by the way, other pollutants within the environment that are being looked at as well, and then decide what measures we can take.

So, colleagues in the UK Government, in DEFRA, are currently working with the Environment Agency and the water industry to establish those methods to detect, to characterise and to quantify microplastics entering waste water treatment works, and to evaluate the efficiency of treatment processes for the removal from domestic waste waters. And my officials are working with DEFRA colleagues to understand the outcomes from that research.

But I referred in my earlier answer to the additional work that's being done to try and quantify the extent of the threat of microplastics as well. We need to be able to evaluate that, and then decide how we deal with it. It's not the only pollutant out there, but it's very important that we focus on this and we gather the data.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to protect best and most versatile agricultural land on Ynys Môn? OQ63618

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Rhun. Planning policy sets out a sequential approach to site selection to protect best and most versatile agricultural land. 'Planning Policy Wales', edition 12, says that if there is a choice between sites of different grades, development should be directed to land of the lowest grade.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you for that response. I don't need to tell the Cabinet Secretary how important agriculture is to Ynys Môn, and it's no surprise, therefore, that there is concern about plans to develop 3,700 acres of solar farms on farmland, and that 1,000 acres of that is BMV land. The loss of BMV land means job losses in agriculture, it impacts the supply chain, and it hits our rural communities. And the Government's policy is to protect BMV land.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The examiner's report for the Alaw Môn project clearly states that there is a fundamental policy conflict because it contains so much BMV land. But this Government has given it the go-ahead regardless. There are other ways of doing solar, of course, on rooftops, and, yes, on smaller packets of less productive agricultural land. But is the Cabinet Secretary ready today to be honest and say that his Government no longer cares about protecting productive BMV land, or, if that's not the case, how on earth can he justify permission being given for the Alaw Môn project?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Rhun. Well, first of all, you'll understand that I'm not able to comment on specific cases and, as I understand it, the Alaw Môn decision, Llywydd, is facing judicial review, so you wouldn't expect me or anybody else to comment on the specifics of the Alaw Môn decision.

However, just to say, we have the highest level of protection for high-quality agricultural land here in Wales in the UK, and let me explain a little bit more. We do have indeed—you are right to point out—ambitious targets for renewable energy, requiring a diverse range of generation types, but each case must be taken on its merits, and it has to balance the agricultural interest against other considerations. Now, the best and most versatile classification of land is not a ban on the use of land. The planning system cannot do that. It does, however, set a very high bar, and as I say, we've got the highest level of protection for high-quality agricultural land in the UK. So, we believe the existing measures are strong. They're the strongest in the UK. It's supported, by the way, by the recent Soil Security paper in 2022, describing Wales as, and I quote, set 'apart from its neighbours' and where,

'the primacy of ALC and BMV land has been maintained'.

That's a quote directly from them. Now, my officials routinely—. Just to make clear from my department, my officials routinely make representations in national interest cases, to ensure our best and most versatile agricultural land is given significant weight in the planning process. But, as I say, I'm not able to comment on specific cases.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

7. What progress has the Welsh Government made on increasing the production of Welsh fruit and vegetables? OQ63614

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Jenny. Growing in Wales is promoted through commitments in the community food strategy, better access for small-scale horticulture to the upcoming sustainable farming scheme, and through initiatives such as the Welsh Veg in Schools programme. Comprehensive ongoing support includes Farming Connect and the horticulture cluster, together with dedicated capital grant schemes.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. All those streams of work are very important, and I acknowledge a lot of the progress that's been made, both by Castell Howell in south Wales and the north Wales education consortium, to do good work on procuring more Welsh ingredients for school meals. But growing 10 tonnes of carrots in Carmarthenshire isn't going to feed all our primary school pupils. The work done by Lantra on behalf of Farming Connect in the last 12 months to increase horticultural production has been excellent, but eight full-time equivalent staff doesn't even meet the demand, never mind proactively promote diversification into horticulture under the sustainable farming scheme.

Our biggest horticulturalist, Puffin Produce, could easily double its output if local authorities were being clearer about what they needed from local growers. I'm concerned that the Farming Connect contract for the next three years is being procured behind closed doors, so stakeholders are unable to see how much resource is targeting strengthening the foundational economy to produce sustainable fruit and veg in Wales, rather than on unpredictable foreign imports. It's both a food security and a sustainability issue. So, what targets have you set for Farming Connect to massively expand Welsh fruit and veg production?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Jenny, where I'd absolutely agree with you is on the importance of not only the procurement policy, but also Farming Connect in taking forward the many ways in which we're supporting growing the fruit and veg sector here in Wales, and Farming Connect is key to this. It has now supported 447 businesses in the edible horticulture sector who are currently registered with the programme. That's significant, from where we were a few years ago. Since April 2023, the programme has successfully delivered 335 fully funded one-to-one horticultural business support sessions to Welsh growers. And that is tailored support, by the way, in key areas such as crop planning, diversification, integrated pest management and much more. And there have been 841 training courses on a range of events specifically within this edible horticulture sector delivered through Farming Connect.

The Farming Connect procurement process is, as you mentioned, ongoing and we expect to announce the successful supplier in the new year. We want to build on the success we have had. We want to keep on growing this sector substantially. It'll continue, that process, to uphold our commitment to supporting all of the various sectors, including edible horticulture, as they transition forward to the sustainable farming scheme. It will, of course, also be aligned with the sustainable land management framework as we go forward as well.

So, we're committed to this, Jenny, in taking this forward. I think we've come a long way over the last couple of years, but we do agree with you that we've got a lot further to go. So, lining up that alongside the horticultural grant support and the range of other support that we have, including working with distributors like Harlech and through the Welsh Veg in Schools programme, we will keep on pushing at all of the areas to grow and grow our edible horticulture sector.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally question 8, Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

8. What assessment has the Welsh Government undertaken regarding river maintenance and flood protection in Mid and West Wales? OQ63615

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Cefin. Within Wales, Natural Resources Wales is the responsible authority for main rivers. Local authorities and riparian owners are responsible for non-main rivers, also known as ordinary watercourses. Risk management authorities are responsible for undertaking flood protection schemes throughout Wales, including in Mid and West Wales.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. The floods that we have seen in west Wales recently demonstrate how often these events take place and how much of an impact these floods have on various different areas. But it also raises a question as to how well prepared we are for these floods and how resilient we are in terms of these flooding events that are happening more often. Following storm Claudia, for example, the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service responded to 450 calls within 12 hours, including people who had been trapped in their own homes and their vehicles.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Minister, successive storms have brought heavy rainfall to already saturated river catchments, with river systems unable to recover between events. Now, in addition, we see that unstable trees and accumulated debris have entered watercourses and become lodged, resulting in blockage. This debris acts as a dam, contributing to upstream flooding and unnecessary damage to properties. So, in light of these events, will you work with NRW to commit to a more preventative programme of river maintenance to avoid unnecessary and repeated flooding?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

You raise a very good point, because the sheer frequency now with which we're having deluges of rain—we can see it starting again here today—means that our front-line agencies are constantly being stretched to respond. Even in the 18 months or more that I've been in post, we are having more of these, not simply heavy precipitation but actually storm incidents, being reported this year than last year, more last year than the year before. Something significant is happening. I simply say to those who would deny that there is something going on with the climate: something is happening here. And that means that there is a big stretch.

Part of our response to that needs not only to be the massive investment that we are doing in flood and coastal protection, and so on—including those things that are often unseen, by the way, which are things such as culvert monitoring, the cleaning of culverts, and so on. That is vitally important as well, and we work with local authorities on that basis. So, it's not only with NRW, it's actually with local authorities who are the flood risk authorities within their own areas. So, yes, I can absolutely commit. And if you want to contact me with detail of particular rivers or river catchments in your area, I'm more than happy to ask my officials to explore that. But we need to maintain our flood resilience, not just keep on investing more and more. We need to maintain what it is when we're faced with more frequent heavy precipitation week after week after week.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical questions are next. The first question will be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and will be asked by Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

1. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding reports that the Home Secretary is considering merging the police forces of England and Wales into larger integrated forces, and regarding the possible implications of this for policing in Wales? TQ1418

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Adam Price. Recent reports in the media on potential future changes in England and Wales are unconfirmed, but we continue to engage with the UK Government policing Minister, who will be attending the policing partnership board for Wales, which I chair, tomorrow.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

These changes that have been reported across several media, and presumably on the basis of a briefing, would represent the biggest upheaval and reform of police forces since the 1960s. I'm not clear—maybe if the Cabinet Secretary could help us in this regard—if there have been any discussions to date in relation to the proposal to create integrated forces and the creation, for example, of a single Welsh police force. When the announcements on police and crime commissioners were made, effectively, if I can paraphrase, you told us that you were told but you weren't consulted. Would you expect to be consulted before the White Paper is published on a proposal that is as significant as this?

On the principle, would you state whether, in your view—certainly, this is our position—no change should happen, a merger for example, without full Senedd scrutiny and a Welsh democratic mandate? Will you particularly call on the Home Secretary to rule out any cross-border structure that would involve, for example, a Welsh force being absorbed into an English megaforce, or indeed Welsh services being effectively operated from a national operations centre in England?

And finally, I think that we would accept that there are some arguments for structural reform—an all-Wales model could have benefits, as has been the case in Scotland—but governance is going to be critical. If an all-Wales force is being proposed, would you agree that the accountability of that national force would have to be national to the Senedd here, to the Welsh Government, through Welsh democratic structures? Will you ask the policing partnership board for Wales, which you chair, to take evidence, set out the options for Wales, and report back to the Senedd so that we can debate and decide the best way forward for Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Adam. Thank you for that question. As I said, unconfirmed reports and speculation are unhelpful, so tomorrow it's really important that we will address this in the policing partnership board. I was really encouraged by the fact that when we had the announcement made by the Home Office to abolish police and crime commissioners, we raised this immediately to say that we need different governance arrangements for Wales. We need governance arrangements that actually reflect Wales, Welsh circumstances, the Wales partnership that we've built up over the years.

The policing partnership board for Wales, which I chair, meets every quarter. It's an excellent example of how we work together, all the police and crime commissioners, our chief constables and the Welsh Local Government Association—key partners. One of the interesting things about that announcement, about the police landscape reform, is that it has provided us with the opportunity to say that this gives us more opportunity to ensure that the policing partnership board can have a real place in Wales in terms of accountability. I share that view in terms of governance.

Also, we have received assurance from the Home Office that there are different governance arrangements between England and Wales, and they're committed to work with the Welsh Government and policing in Wales. I'm sure this will come up tomorrow in our policing partnership board. There will be plans for collaborative working and the upcoming White Paper that is being developed and, subsequently, will be published in the new year.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, do you not agree that this is the perfect opportunity for a reset for you all to abandon your calls for devolving policing and justice to Wales? There is merit in having a single unified police force for England and Wales, if only to tackle dysfunctional forces like Gwent Police, who have allowed a culture of misogyny to persist amongst their officers and leaders. Cabinet Secretary, when you next discuss policing with the Home Secretary, will you be pushing for better policing for Wales, rather than Wales in charge of policing?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I actually think this provides the perfect opportunity to discuss the devolution of policing and justice to Wales. Let's go back to the fact that this was advocated not just by the Thomas commission, the largest ever examination of the justice system in Wales, but also, more recently, by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, chaired by Rowan Williams and Laura McAllister. I was here in the days of the Silk commission, where your party also, with all the parties, agreed that we should devolve policing to Wales. So, I think this has given us the perfect opportunity to progress these discussions. Of course, this would be a phased approach. At present, we're focusing on the devolution of youth justice and probation, but the change of governance arrangements for policing is a natural opportunity, raised by this question this afternoon, to consider the role of the Welsh Government and the Senedd in terms of accountability for policing in Wales.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

You mentioned the word 'partnership' in your responses to Adam Price, and you'll forgive us for feeling a little bit left out when the word 'partnership' hasn't really occurred when it comes to the Westminster announcements and what we know in Wales on this really important issue. This was something that was talked about in the media at the beginning of this week, and indeed was a surprise, certainly to me and presumably to others. Really, the mechanism through which this should come is the Senedd. The idea of partnership is something that we need raised really seriously between the Welsh Parliament and the UK Parliament. So, to echo what Adam has said there, I'd just like to hear a timetable for this process, how the Senedd will be involved in it.

Also, you've mentioned the devolution of youth justice and probation, and I disagree profoundly with my Conservative colleague. We need more devolved powers here, but that timetable is slipping as well. So, could we have a commitment from you for next year that there is going to be a clear statement on both this development and the timetable for the devolution of youth justice and probation, and also looking forward, so that we can feel confident that that work in partnership is happening? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I can assure you that I do meet regularly with the UK Government Minister for Policing and Crime Prevention, Sarah Jones, and she is attending our policing partnership board for Wales. I'm very proud, as I've said, of the partnership board for Wales. It brings together all of those interests that are crucial to justice and the policing landscape in Wales.

I raised this issue in terms of the Welsh landscape in terms of policing, because, of course, there's been police landscape reform discussed since the new UK Government came into power last year. I wrote to Sarah Jones in November to say that they must recognise the unique Welsh landscape. It is a unique Welsh landscape that we've developed together. It's not devolved, but it's a unique Welsh landscape. I've urged that both sets of our officials should work together.

As I've mentioned, there's a White Paper being developed and it'll be published in the new year. I look forward to discussions emerging tomorrow. A change of governance arrangements, as I said, and I'll repeat, is a natural opportunity to consider the role not just of the Welsh Government but of the Senedd in terms of accountability for policing.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Of course, if there was any real partnership, Cabinet Secretary, you wouldn't have been placed in this invidious position this afternoon. This is the second time in two months where you've had to field questions from Members where this Parliament has been placed in a situation whereby it's discussing hearsay on one of the fundamental public services. This simply isn't good enough. Policing should be devolved to Wales in the same way as it's been described, as the Cabinet Secretary outlined, in the number of commissions and reports that have been published over many years, over decades, on this matter. It is time that the UK Government didn't simply recognise a distinct pattern in Wales—which clearly they don't, because if they did recognise that, you wouldn't be in this position—and actually bit the bullet and devolved policing. That needs to happen. It needs to happen as soon as possible. It needs to happen in a structured way and it needs to ensure that people in this Chamber and across this country can decide the sort of policing they want. I think when we do have that debate, we will want to see more local influence and more local control. We certainly don't want to see the nationalisation of policing that's just been proposed by the Conservatives. We've never had a national police force in the United Kingdom. We don’t want one today. What we want is a devolved Welsh police force responsible to Welsh communities, and the sooner the better.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much. I think that was a statement, rather than a question. But I think, actually, it has been helpful to have this question, and I thank Adam Price for raising it this afternoon, because it has enabled people to express their views across this Chamber. I will say that I was encouraged that the Home Office has recognised the different governance arrangements between England and Wales. They've seen all of the reports over the years—I won't repeat them all—that have called for the devolution of policing. They have committed to working with the Welsh Government and policing in Wales. It is important that we listen to the views not just in this Chamber but of all the relevant partners in Wales. This is about us influencing the best and most appropriate form of local policing governance and scrutiny in Wales. So, it has been helpful to air and share today, before my policing partnership board tomorrow, with the policing Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I haven't quite finished yet. There are two more views to share. Mark Isherwood, then Rhys ab Owen.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I was actually a member of the sub-committee of the Assembly's Social Justice and Regeneration Committee, which reviewed the structure of policing in 2005, when mergers were proposed then. We carried this out at the request of the then UK Home Secretary via your predecessor and colleague at the time, Edwina Hart.

Our report noted that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries and that cross-border partnerships must reflect operational reality. Our detailed scrutiny work on behalf of the UK Home Secretary considering the then proposed Welsh police merger led to police mergers being aborted across England and Wales.

The Welsh Local Government Association, police authorities and chief constables all agreed that the issue was fundamentally about finance. They identified a £79 million deficit by 2012-13, adding that this was by no means a worst-case scenario, which would see the deficit rising to £100 million. In order to recognise the regional cultural and geographical differences that exist within Wales, all agreed that Wales must be policed in regions. North Wales Police Authority at the time in particular supported a strong regional element, with real delegated powers.

This is very much groundhog day, déjà vu, all over again. I'd be grateful if you could confirm whether you will ensure that the UK Government considers the reports that we then produced, the work that we then carried out on behalf of the UK Home Secretary, and the decision he then took on the basis of the detailed work that we carried out here.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thanks very much, Mark Isherwood. I have mentioned a number of reports that have been undertaken that we have commissioned, which have been commissioned in partnership, as well, with the UK Government, the former UK Government, and the Silk commission, I would say particularly. But, of course, we will be looking at all of the reports, and thank you for reminding us of the work you did. But I do think that we have got an opportunity here. We've seized the opportunity, I think, to consider the best arrangements for Wales, following that announcement earlier on regarding the abolition of police and crime commissioners. I think what is essential is that we have to, and I will say today and tomorrow—we must ensure that powers that are currently exercised by our police and crime commissioners in Wales should remain within Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I am amazed weekly here by the mental filofax that is Mark Isherwood, often taking us back and reminding us. It's like groundhog day sometimes here, because this conversation has been ongoing for even longer than 2005, at least 30 years. I don't know if Adam Price remembers where he was on 2 November 2005, but, Adam, you were in the same room as the current Deputy First Minister and the current chief of staff of the Welsh Conservative Party, meeting Westminster Ministers to discuss, as Mark Isherwood has said already, the merger of the Welsh police forces. Nothing happens quickly at all in Wales, and probably, maybe, that's part of the problem.

The current police forces in Wales make no sense at all. The four police forces, with Gwent being such a small force, make no sense at all. Police Scotland has shown us that a unified force can succeed and can flourish, Mark. The evidence shows that Police Scotland is flourishing—[Interruption.] No, I can't take an intervention in a question. It's not failing at all. What the early days of Police Scotland did give us was warnings of how to do it properly. Any restructure or reduction in forces cannot be undertaken just as a cost-saving exercise. Financial investment in policing needs to be put in. It needs to put community first, and make sure that policing is accessible for all of the communities of Wales.

Back in 2005, the figure was put at £12 million, and all of the reserves of the four police authorities back then. As Alun said, this is a bit like déjà vu—money and resources that this Government spends in justice, but yet again it's highlighted that there is no accountability to this place and that you are standing here floundering, finding these things out through the media, rather than through the proper sources. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that it's worth looking at a single unified Welsh police force, but that anything like that needs to be accountable to you or your successor and accountable to this place? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you again. I know you have, Rhys ab Owen, had a long history of engagement in this, including of course the Thomas commission. What I would say to you today is that I absolutely agree with you that all of these discussions about the governance of policing and accountability in Wales must put community first. I'm very proud that it's a Welsh Labour Government that actually committed itself to funding police community support officers, because they are at the heart of our neighbourhood policing teams. We feel that the positive impact they make within their communities has been beneficial.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The next question will be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and will be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government measures to address gaps in NHS waiting list data? TQ1421

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

A review of data processes for referral-to-treatment waiting times at Betsi Cadwaladr health board, which includes gathering data, ensuring quality and governance, has moved forward, and the health board is tackling the issues that have been raised. My expectation is that the full reports will restart from January 2026.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Cabinet Secretary, you will recall that, a few weeks ago, I raised questions regarding data gaps on waiting lists at the north Wales health board, and I subsequently wrote to you for further clarification on the circumstances that led to such a serious failure in health data sources. While I appreciate the response that you provided, as well as the explanation of the chief statistician on what went wrong, they raise a number of further questions. It is also unacceptable, I believe, that such an important update was published hidden away on a Government blog page.

First, what are the expected timescales for concluding the investigation, and what will be the consequences for the health board in terms of accountability? One of the reasons for the data gap was the fact that some pathways for patients referred for treatment in the independent sector, or in England, were wrongly removed from the official statistics. Does this suggest that figures were being manipulated? It's concerning that I've had a number of cases in my office, for instance, raising questions exactly along these lines. For instance, a constituent explains how they were on the list for a cataract surgery, which was due to be carried out by SpaMedica. Eleven weeks later, the patient was told that they would no longer be referred to the private provider, and was placed back on the waiting list, to the back of the queue. The constituent believes that this happened in order to make the waiting list figures look good. Is that the type of thing that we're looking at here?

Do you have a figure on the number of affected pathways, and how confident are you that this manipulation of the data isn't happening elsewhere in Wales? The chief statistician's blog also mentioned a misalignment between waiting list trends and operational management information. Is someone providing false information here? On a wider level, this raises serious concerns as to organisational culture and governance at the health board. Finally, will we have reliable data to be able to assess whether the promise to eliminate two-year waits at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board by the end of 2025 has been achieved, and if so, will it be available before the election?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member has taken the opportunity of his question to make allegations of manipulation and misconduct, which are on the record, but which have no basis whatsoever. I think it is important that we let the review be completed. I answered his point about the timescale in my initial answer. I expect that the data in January will be able to be published in the usual way, including Betsi Cadwaladr's data as well.

One of the reasons we were able to identify that there was a challenge in the data was that, by the recent introduction of provisional RTT figures—which the Member objected to, despite being supported by independent statisticians—because it gave us the opportunity of identifying trends early, played an important role in identifying the anomalies that are currently being investigated. Essentially, the provisional data didn't follow the expected trends, based on what we knew was happening in terms of operational intelligence, and that prompted further checks.

He's right to say that the issue arose in the context of data sets that were not aligned, if you like, to what we could see happening in terms of pathways for patients treated by independent providers. It was by marrying our understanding of the operational activity on the one hand with the monthly data that was being reported on the other that we were able to identify the issues that are currently being investigated. But it's important for us to have that review and for that to be completed. We will then have some of the detailed questions that he put to me answered. But, as I say, my expectation is that we will have that information in time for the reporting in January, which I'm sure he'll welcome.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I don't think my colleague Mabon ap Gwynfor was insinuating anything; it's actually what was in the blog. I'll read it out to you. It said:

'reported waiting list trends did not align with...operational management information'.

So, something is going wrong, and information is being inaccurately reported somewhere, or somebody, or part of the organisation, is providing the wrong information. So, Cabinet Secretary, you've talked an awful lot—and we all have, over these last couple of months—about openness and transparency in the NHS. This organisation in Betsi Cadwaladr has had these issues before, with management saying one thing, doing another, and things being covered up. So, I would think you should take this extremely seriously. I'm interested: are the Welsh Government going to look into this properly, to make sure there is no manipulation of the waiting list figures in Betsi Cadwaladr to make them look better than what they're actually doing? Because I think it's very important that, if people are to trust that this Welsh Government is honest and open about increasing transparency in our NHS, it needs to act when things like this are raised, instead of accusing Members across the Chamber of basically peddling misinformation.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, that was not the point I made. The point I made was that the use of the language 'manipulation' suggested a course of action for which there is no evidence. But the point I am making more importantly, I think, is that the commitment that this Government has to transparency is what has unearthed this issue. I took a decision to publish provisional referral-to-treatment data, which the Member also objected to my doing. And it's the collection of that data and the making available of it on a provisional basis, which has been supported by statisticians, which has unearthed this issue that is being reviewed.

He asked what action the Welsh Government has taken. He will recall that when I last stood here discussing this issue, I said that I was giving the health board 24 hours in which to resolve it to my satisfaction and that of the statisticians, otherwise I would instigate an immediate review. They failed to do that and I instigated the immediate review. I have issued a written statement that has set out what that review entails. I did that within days of having made that statement in the Senedd. It is because of this Government's commitment to transparency and to openness that we are having this discussion today. And I share with him the importance of making sure that data is reliable in the interests of improving services, but also in the interests of you scrutinising me and me scrutinising the health board.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is next, the 90-second statements, and the first will be given by James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, we honour with deep gratitude the life and service of the Honourable Dame Shân Legge-Bourke, who died peacefully at her home at the age of 82. She was one of Wales's most respected figures, known for her steadfast dedication to rural life, community services, charity and public duty. Dame Shân was Lord Lieutenant of Powys from 1998 to 2018, the monarch's representative in our largest county, carrying out official duties with dignity and warmth, while always championing the people and heritage of Powys. Her service extended far beyond ceremonial roles.

She gave her time and leadership to a remarkable range of charitable, agricultural and voluntary organisations, serving as president of the Powys branch of the Royal British Legion, president of Save the Children Wales, president of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society and president of the Brecknock federation and national federation of young farmers clubs. She was also the High Sheriff of Powys, honorary colonel of the Infantry Battle School in Brecon, along with a number of other patronages that she served throughout our communities.

Dame Shân's deep connection with community was matched by her compassion, raising funds and awareness for good causes across Wales. Many can remember her unique 'hat talks', where she would don colourful hats, which she wore as lady in waiting to the Princess Royal on their many visits, turning those fun talks into joyful fundraising moments that helped raise thousands of pounds for local charities and good causes. She was a pioneering landowner, a custodian of Glanusk estate, where she supported local employment, cultural events and community initiatives, promoting Wales's rich rural economy and heritage. She was a star of tv in the Lady of Glanusk tv documentary, and she could often be seen on a mower or strimming grass around the estate. Dame Shân's remarkable contribution was recognised in her appointment as Dame Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, reflecting her many years of personal service to the Crown.

On a personal note, she was always very generous to me, and was always on hand with some advice as to how I should handle my role in public life. Her advice was simple and to the point, and highly effective. She told me, 'Don't do anything silly, keep out of trouble, turn up on time, do your homework and leave on time, and you won't go far wrong.'

On behalf of the people of Brecon and Radnorshire and Powys, we express our deep condolences to her children, grandchildren and her extended family, and all whose lives she touched. Her legacy of service, charity and community leadership will inspire us all for generations to come. Diolch yn fawr, Shân, and may you rest in peace.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I would like to place on record my thanks and congratulations to Dyfed-Powys Police on winning the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence category at the Wales Safer Communities Awards. Last year 1.6 million adults across England and Wales experienced stalking. Stalking can lead to death. It is stage 5 in the eight-step timeline leading to domestic homicide, so this programme is literally life-saving. An award such as this recognises a genuinely collaborative, compassionate and victim-centred approach.

This pioneering pilot, the only one of its kind in Wales, brings together specialist risk assessments, safety planning and practical support. Through their partnership with the Paladin National Stalking Advocacy Service, Dyfed-Powys Police have introduced independent stalking casework advocates and trained stalking champions, so that victims are listened to, believed and supported earlier. I pay tribute to Dyfed-Powys Police, but, more than that, I pay tribute to the victims and survivors of stalking who have taken part in this pilot. Your courage and bravery deserves recognition. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Next we have a motion to elect a Member to a committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally— Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Debate on the General Principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 today is a debate on the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Member in charge to move the motion—Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Prynhawn da. I'm pleased and grateful to be able to move this motion today to agree the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill. If the motion is agreed today, which I urge all Members to do, it will be another huge step ahead in bringing forward what is vital legislation for Wales. I thank all three committees—the Equality and Social Justice Committee, the Finance Committee, and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—for their Stage 1 scrutiny of the Bill, for their respective reports and for recommending that the Senedd agrees the general principles of the Bill, for welcoming the Bill's intentions, and for noting the evidence in relation to matters of legislative competence respectively.

I've been able to accept the vast majority of their recommendations, and I propose to table appropriate amendments during the ongoing stages of the Bill, if it passes today's stage. It has not been possible for me to accept all of the three committees' recommendations, and I've provided reasons for this in my responses to them. I will also touch on this later. I also thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for their collaborative-working approach to the Bill, and I look forward to working with her further as the Bill progresses. In my statement on introduction of the Bill, I outlined in detail what the Bill seeks to do and why this Bill is badly needed. Given the time available today, I don't intend to cover that in great detail again, but it is worth outlining some of the main points about the Bill.

The Bill recognises that BSL is a language in its own right, not a communication support need. It has been important to recognise that throughout this process. If we don't legislate on this now, Wales would be the only UK nation without sign language legislation. This Bill will also address the current anomaly created by the UK Act, which places a duty on the UK Government to prepare and publish BSL reports describing what Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL, but specifically excludes reporting on matters devolved to Scotland and Wales.

The BSL (Wales) Bill places legal duties on the Welsh Government and public bodies to actively promote and facilitate the use of British Sign Language, aiming to remove barriers faced by deaf BSL signers in accessing services in their first language. The Bill requires Welsh Ministers to publish a national BSL strategy within 18 months of the Act coming into force, setting out how BSL will be promoted and facilitated. Progress reports on the strategy must be published at least every three years, ensuring transparency and accountability. The strategy must be reviewed at least every six years, with any revisions also published. Public bodies listed in the Bill must develop and publish their own BSL plans within 12 months of the national strategy, followed by reports on their implementation and any unmet actions. To ensure consistency and flexibility, Welsh Ministers are required to issue guidance to public bodies on how they should be promoting and facilitating BSL. Public bodies must also review their plans if directed by Welsh Ministers or if the national strategy is revised. The Bill also establishes the role of a BSL adviser, which will be the first statutory BSL adviser role in the UK, and a BSL panel. The importance of this cannot be overstated.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

My response to the Equality and Social Justice Committee's Stage 1 report on the Bill reaffirms the Bill's core purpose: to deliver real, measurable improvements for the deaf community in Wales. I welcome the committee's scrutiny and agree with the need for clear, time-bound targets in the national BSL strategy, ensuring that the Bill leads to meaningful change. The ESJ report addresses concerns about making it a statutory requirement for the BSL adviser to be deaf, explaining that such a provision could risk the Bill's passage due to potential legal challenges. As my response to them stated, a successful legal challenge to a single provision requiring the BSL adviser to be deaf would mean that the whole Bill would fall. That would be unacceptable and would let the entire deaf community down. The ESJ committee response also highlights the urgent need to expand the BSL interpreter workforce, and acknowledges the importance of updating cost estimates to reflect inflation.

In response to the committee's recommendations, I've made several commitments to strengthen the Bill. These include reviewing and clarifying the description of BSL in the explanatory memorandum, aligning the publication of BSL guidance with the national strategy, and placing a formal duty on Welsh Ministers to consult deaf BSL signers on both the strategy and guidance.

The committee has recommended that I review the description of BSL in the explanatory memorandum to address stakeholder concerns and consider whether a clear definition should be included on the face of the Bill. I accept this recommendation and will work with the Cabinet Secretary to revise the explanatory memorandum accordingly. I also intend to bring forward an amendment at Stage 2 to add a provision to the face of the Bill clarifying that BSL, for the purpose of the Bill, refers to both the visual and tactile forms. This is in line with the provisions of the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act of 2015.

I agree with the ESJ committee that it is vital that the BSL interpreter workforce is expanded. BSL interpreters provide an absolutely essential service, and I thank those interpreting today. It acts as a vital link for deaf BSL signers both to those providing key services and to the general non-BSL-speaking public. The expansion of the BSL interpreter workforce will be necessary even without the additional duties that will be put in place should the Bill become law, although these additional duties would clearly strengthen this. This also links back to the need for the strategy to specify that targets will be required. While it would be impossible for a framework Bill to pre-specify measurable targets for BSL translators and interpreters in Wales within the BSL strategy, I propose to bring forward an amendment at Stage 2 requiring the strategy to specify that such targets will be required.

The ESJ committee has recommended that to ensure engagement and co-production the Bill should place a formal requirement on Welsh Ministers to consult deaf BSL signers on the national BSL strategy and guidance. I accept this recommendation and will bring forward the necessary amendments. However, co-production and consultation are very different things. Consultation itself is only one element of the wider engagement, and it is not the co-production that will be necessary for the development of the strategy, guidance and plans. I expect the BSL adviser and BSL panel to have a role to play in the development of the strategy and guidance and to help ensure the engagement and co-production needed.

I have sympathy with the committee's recommendation 10, which recommends an amendment that will place duties on Welsh Ministers to prepare and issue guidance on the appropriate route for BSL signers to make complaints about access to services. As I and many of us have seen in our casework load, many constituents do not find current public service complaints procedures satisfactory. Some might say that's an understatement. However, my intention is to update the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill to clarify the options available to complainants requiring recourse in instances where public services are failing to meet their duties under the Bill.

I welcome the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report, the LJC report, and three recommendations and accept two of these. I will consider specifying a minimum and maximum number of members for the panel and, if appropriate, bring forward an amendment at Stage 2. Additionally, while I believe the current wording of section 8(1) regarding listed public bodies is clear, I will table amendments at Stage 2 to include the full names of the Welsh NHS trusts as set out in their establishment Orders.

However, I have rejected recommendation 1, which recommends an amendment to the Bill to require that the statutory guidance is laid before the Senedd. I've considered this recommendation carefully and discussed the issue with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. On balance, and on the basis of the need to secure and maintain consensus, I'm rejecting the recommendation. As the committee itself has set out, the laying of Welsh Government guidance of this nature would be unusual, and guidance of this sort would not normally be directly scrutinised by the Senedd. Whilst this is the case, as I outlined in my evidence to the committee, I do expect that Senedd Members and Senedd committees will keep a close eye on the guidance and on how the legislation in its entirety is implemented. I believe that would be the case whether the guidance is laid or not.

I welcome the Finance Committee's conclusions on the financial implications of the Bill, and their statement that the collaborative approach taken with this Welsh Government has been invaluable throughout the Bill's development. Although I'm confident that the costs set out in the regulatory impact assessment are robust and complete, I accept the recommendations to work with the Cabinet Secretary to analyse cost-benefits and clarify interaction with existing BSL policies. However, this will depend upon the detail of the national BSL strategy and the plans, which can only be developed after enactment of the legislation.

I'm also content that the costs for listed public bodies in developing BSL plans are accurate, although implementation costs cannot yet be quantified. The statutory reporting provisions in the Bill will ensure that progress is monitored and a separate post-implementation review should not, therefore, be necessary, although Members may have a view on this themselves at Stage 2. I'll leave that with you.

Finally, I thank my team, the Commission's Bill team and external partners for their hard work, support and guidance. If passed, this BSL (Wales) Bill will be the most progressive piece of BSL legislation in the UK. So, let's make this happen together and be proud of it together on behalf of deaf people across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you very much. It was a great privilege to scrutinise this measure to deliver equality and social justice for a group of largely unseen citizens whose needs are not being properly heard. We found the Stage 1 scrutiny stimulating, thought-provoking and challenging. We have needed to do things differently, particularly when it comes to simultaneous translation not just from Welsh to English, but from Welsh and English into British Sign Language. This experience has only served to underline why this legislation is needed.

We received compelling testimony from deaf BSL signers, their representative organisations, service providers, as well as those who uphold standards in public services, of the overdue need for this legislation. I thank everyone who took part in this Stage 1 scrutiny, particularly the BSL community. We have raised their expectations and we now need to deliver.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The vision of this Bill is to give more status and standing to British Sign Language as a distinct language and culture, and empower citizens who use BSL to have their voices heard and their needs better met. You may well ask why this Bill should be necessary when the rights of all deaf people, particularly those whose first language is BSL, should have been protected by the Equality Act 2010. A member of one of the committee's focus groups summed it up,

'The current levers are not working',

'The Equality Act isn’t working for us, the accessible standards in health are not working—so pretty much every sector in Wales isn’t working. So, we want improvements everywhere'.

The Bill's central aim is simple: to promote and facilitate more BSL in public services, so ensuring deaf BSL signers can access information and support on equal terms with other citizens. We had considerable discussion on which public bodies should be listed on the face of the Bill and whether or not others should be added. But we came down in support of the approach adopted by Mark Isherwood to prioritise the initial focus on those parts of the public sector where the need is most pressing, namely health and local government, particularly education. These are the universal services that all citizens will have to use at some stage in their lives. We deal with the process for future inclusion of other bodies in recommendation 6.

The committee was unanimous in favour of agreeing the general principles of the Bill, and five of our 12 recommendations require amendments at Stage 2. The Member in charge has confirmed his intention to bring forward amendments in four of the five, and I will turn to recommendation 10, which the Member in charge has rejected, in a moment. The other recommendations are to both the Welsh Government and to the Member in charge to clarify or relating to the process for successful implementation.

The success of this law will depend on three things: (1) adequate funding; (2) clear guidance; and (3) strong engagement with the deaf community. It is vital that the Bill leads to tangible change and avoids tokenism. The legislation won't deliver the change we need without adequate resourcing. We know that resources are scarce in all public bodies, and the needs of BSL speakers are at risk of being lost in competition with other funding pressures. So, we're apprehensive about the capacity of the public sector to collaborate across local and public service boundaries, which we think is essential to ensure that these services are delivered cost-effectively and are front and centre of all these local bodies' delivery plans.

The biggest barrier to implementation, by quite some margin, was the availability of interpreters and the long-term sustainability of that workforce. That is why work to train and retain more BSL interpreters and translators, and to secure the long-term success of the profession in Wales, must begin immediately. We disagree with the BSL stakeholder task and finish group that this is a medium-term concern. We think it's an immediate one.

In relation to the role of the BSL adviser, this important public appointment will not attract the considerable powers enjoyed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, but it is going to be just as important and influential as the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence adviser. The appropriate committee in the next Senedd should be offered the opportunity to conduct a pre-appointment hearing with the preferred candidate for BSL adviser, so that we can be satisfying ourselves that this candidate is fit for purpose for this important job.

In terms of deaf-led engagement, it is essential that the legislation must prioritise engagement with deaf communities, so that they feel that this is the opportunity that will take forward their ability to be shaping their own future as more centrally involved in the services and their rights as a community. The Welsh Government has made a good start with empowering a leadership cohort made up of deaf BSL signers through the creation of the stakeholder task and finish group. It's a good work in progress, but it needs to continue, making sure this community across Wales is equipped with the skills and experiences necessary to lead on planning and delivery of the Bill.

One of the gaps in the legislation is a lack of clarity around the routes available to complainants in situations where they have exhausted internal complaints procedures. To be clear, we are not suggesting a parallel pathway for complaints, but the committee is keen to clarify how exactly we are going to inform citizens who may or may not be involved centrally in the delivery of this legislation about what their rights are and how they do it. So, we are not suggesting in any way regarding the Children's Commissioner for Wales, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales, and other commissioners, that this will in any way diminish their roles, but it does need to be more explicit about how a BSL user can complain, and where an organisation is simply not listening or acting on their complaint—. People need to know under what circumstances they can avail themselves of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales.

So, the committee notes that this has been rejected by the Member in charge, who nevertheless is going to—. We want to look at this with the greater clarity we hope will be provided in the explanatory memorandum, and it remains to be seen whether this will be sufficient. For example, I would expect every public body to have a video available in BSL to enable the citizen who wants to complain about x organisation to be able to get the fundamental information about exactly how they would go about it in that particular body.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Finally, I will say what one of the BSL signers told us:

'The Bill would make us feel respected and valued. But without proper funding, planning, and Deaf-led leadership, it won't go far enough.'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee.

First, I would like to thank Mark Isherwood, as the Member in charge, for responding to our conclusions and recommendations ahead of today's debate. The committee strongly supports the intentions behind this legislation and its commitment to meaningful action to improve services and outcomes for the deaf community in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Peredur, can you stop a minute because Mark hasn't got his translation in place?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Sorry.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We'll just wait for Mark to go back to his seat and get his translation.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

No problem.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And I'll let you start again.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Okay.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Okay. Thank you, Peredur.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Once more with feeling, I suppose. There we are.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today's debate on behalf of the Finance Committee and I would like to thank Mark Isherwood, as the Member in charge, for responding to our conclusions and recommendations ahead of today's debate. The committee strongly supports the intentions behind this legislation and its commitment to meaningful action to improve services and outcomes for the deaf community in Wales.

We were encouraged to see the Welsh Government working closely with the Member in charge during the drafting process, providing both technical and policy support. This collaborative approach produced clear and robust cost estimates, and it does demonstrate what can be achieved when Government and non-Government Members work together. We believe that this should be a model of good practice for future Members' Bills.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

As we highlighted in our report, this is a framework Bill setting out areas of action and expectation. However, it does not quantify the costs of implementing key provisions such as the BSL strategy and individual BSL plans. While we understand why these costs cannot be modelled at this stage, greater transparency on the potential financial benefits and savings would be helpful. We therefore ask the Member in charge to work with the Welsh Government to assess these benefits as the Bill progresses, and we welcome his positive response.

The committee agrees that the costs should be viewed as an investment. Improving access for deaf BSL users will deliver long-term value for money and reduce inefficiencies caused by communication barriers. The proposed BSL adviser and assisting panel will also be central to effective implementation and stakeholder engagement.

We welcome the Welsh Government's decision to allocate funding for this Bill in its 2026-27 budget, while recognising that decisions beyond that point will rest with any future Government. We also note the work already under way on BSL policy within the Welsh Government, which complements the aims of the Bill. However, we found it challenging to separate the costs outlined in the RIA from those already committed, suggesting that costs could be overstated. That is why we have asked the Member in charge to continue working with the Welsh Government to clarify how these policies interact and whether anticipated costs remain accurate, and we welcome his acceptance of that recommendation.

The committee welcomes the methods used by the Member in charge as a basis for the cost estimate, including using existing legislation to calculate financial impact. This is a sensible approach, and makes best use of available data, producing a clear and credible overview of the Bill's financial implications.

We also note that substantial costs will fall on listed public bodies as they implement their individual BSL plans. While we recognise why these costs are not included in the RIA, it remains difficult to understand how public bodies will absorb these costs within existing budgets. This is why we asked for further clarification, and it is disappointing that the Member in charge has rejected this recommendation, as greater transparency would have been beneficial for the bodies impacted.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Finally, we believe there is a risk that implementation costs could escalate over time. To mitigate this, we recommend a robust post-implementation review of the legislation, including an assessment of the actual costs. While the Member in charge has questioned whether a full post-implementation review is necessary, we are pleased that he has agreed that an assessment of overall costs and benefits would be beneficial, and we ask the Cabinet Secretary to consider this further.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to congratulate Mark Isherwood and his team for the thorough way in which he has prepared the financial information accompanying this Bill. Overall, the committee is broadly content with the financial implications and the approach adopted. I would also like to thank him and the Cabinet Secretary, and their officials, for their positive engagement with the committee throughout the scrutiny of this Bill. Thank you very much.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee reported on the Member in charge's Bill on 4 December. We heard evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip, and the Member in charge. We note that this is a Member's Bill and that the Member in charge has collaborated with the Welsh Government in bringing it forward. We also note the case made by the Member in charge as to why there is a need for this legislation, namely to ensure that there is at least parity with the statutory duties in other UK jurisdictions in relation to BSL provision, and to address the demonstrable challenges faced by BSL signers in accessing public services.

Our report also commented on the Member in charge's reference to this Bill as a 'framework Bill'. We recognise, however, that the Bill is seeking to promote the use of BSL in Wales and, as such, its policy focus is narrow, with the duty placed on the Welsh Ministers to prepare a national BSL strategy and issue guidance for BSL plans to be published by listed public bodies. Therefore, we do not consider this to be wholly a framework Bill, given that significant policy and law will not be delivered through subordinate legislation. We’re content with the approach adopted in this Bill.

Section 3 of the Bill requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to ‘listed public bodies’, which is defined at section 8 of the Bill, on how they may promote and facilitate the use of BSL in exercising their functions. We acknowledge it would be atypical for the Senedd to have a formal role in scrutinising guidance. However, we felt that attention must be afforded to the guidance in this instance, given it will be a significant factor in delivering the policy objectives underpinning the Bill.

Whilst it's not standard practice, we consider that it would be beneficial for the guidance to be laid before the Senedd in order to draw it to the attention of Members of the Senedd formally. This is particularly important given that the implementation of the Bill, if passed by this Senedd, would be the responsibility of a future Welsh Government, and any scrutiny of that implementation would fall to the next Senedd. As a result, the committee recommended that the Member in charge should table an amendment to the Bill to require that the statutory guidance issued under section 3, and any future revisions of it, are laid before the Senedd. The Member in charge rejected this recommendation, and we note his reasons for doing so.

Section 5 of the Bill requires the Welsh Government to appoint a person to serve as BSL adviser, along with a panel to assist them. The Bill does not specify the size of the supporting panel. However, the explanatory memorandum notes that a typical public appointed advisory board, to which the panel will be closely aligned, has six to eight members, with a final decision on the panel size resting with the Welsh Government and the BSL adviser. We understand the desire for flexibility around the number of panel members, but there's a danger that, without specifying a number, the panel could become unwieldy and incur unexpected costs, or could be left with insufficient numbers to deliver the support required. We believe that flexibility could be provided by specifying a minimum and maximum number of panel members on the face of the Bill. We recommend that the Member in charge should consider the merits of specifying a minimum and maximum number of members that should sit on the panel.

Section 8(1) sets out the meaning of 'a listed public body' for the purpose of the Bill. Section 8(1)(c) defines some NHS trusts using their full official titles whilst others have been abbreviated. We recommend, for clarity, that the Member in charge should table an amendment to section 8(1)(c) to reflect the full names of specified Welsh NHS trusts by reference to their corresponding establishment Orders. We are pleased to note that these final two recommendations have been accepted by the Member in charge.

Can I just, very briefly, raise my personal views? My sister is profoundly deaf and is a BSL user, so that will count as me declaring an interest. I fully support this Bill. I've been with Mark from the very beginning of this Bill, and I think it's really important for the deaf community in Wales that this Bill is successful. I urge all Members, in my personal capacity, to support it. If I hadn't been speaking on behalf of the committee, I'd be speaking in favour of it as an individual Member. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and Trefnydd—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Members of the Senedd, to you all, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this debate on the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill.

The Welsh Government welcomes the comprehensive scrutiny provided by the committees during Stage 1. I'd like to express my gratitude to the committees, to their members, and all of those who have participated so thoughtfully in scrutinising the Bill at Stage 1. Their diligence and collective expertise have been invaluable, as we've heard this afternoon from the Chairs. You will all be aware that I continue to champion advancing social justice, promoting equality and enhancing well-being across Wales.

As the Member who has led and promoted this Bill, Mark Isherwood, has said and made clear, BSL is a language, a culture and an identity. By working to enshrine support for BSL in law, we send a clear message that Wales values and respects its deaf BSL signing community. This Bill does go further than the other UK nations. The example has already been given of the creation of a dedicated BSL adviser role, a unique feature of this Bill that will ensure expert guidance and accountability in delivering its aims.

The Bill is, of course, as I said, a Member Bill led by Mark Isherwood. I want to acknowledge Mark's unwavering commitment to the deaf BSL signing community in Wales. Members will recall that we've contributed to the drafting of Mark Isherwood's Bill. This collaborative working between Mark Isherwood and myself throughout this process has been constructive and positive, demonstrating our shared commitment to improving outcomes for the deaf BSL signing community in Wales.

I'm pleased that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Equality and Social Justice Committee both support the general principles of this Bill. The Equality and Social Justice Committee recommended that the Senedd agrees the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill at Stage 1. I hope, as has been said already, that all Members here today will support this.

The reports produced by the committees have highlighted the importance of deaf leadership, and I support the recommendations in the reports that strengthen engagement with the deaf community. I agree that BSL signers must be engaged in the development of the national BSL strategy and BSL guidance, and also that we must make sure that the appointments process for the BSL adviser meets the needs of the deaf community.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Would the Member give way? Thank you. I think it's hugely commendable that the Government has worked with a backbencher to bring forward a Bill like this. It's simply not possible for a backbencher to be able to draft and understand the technical implications of a Bill, so I think it's hugely to the Welsh Government's credit. This Bill would not be happening without the help and co-operation of the Welsh Government.

Thinking in terms of future Senedds, will there be an opportunity to offer lessons through the Senedd Commission for future parliamentarians on how they could do this in future, drawing on the leadership the Welsh Government has shown and the co-operation that Mark Isherwood has shown, to make sure that this isn't a one-off?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Lee Waters. I think this was also mentioned earlier on by the Chair of the Finance Committee—that this is a model for us to look at, working together. Indeed, Members from all parties are engaged, through the Business Committee, following the seventh Senedd committee report, in looking at these ways of working and how we can learn from them in terms of the future, so I hope it will be something that can be a model and an example.

Just going back to the Bill, I recognise the vital role that the listed public bodies will play in implementing the aims of the Bill. I agree that the BSL guidance should be published at the same time as the national BSL strategy, to ensure that timely support is available to bodies to develop their plans. It will be important that listed public bodies collaborate and are equipped with the right expertise to prepare and execute their plans effectively. I also agree that the list of listed public bodies included within section 8 of the Bill must be kept under review as capacity to promote and facilitate BSL grows.

The Welsh Government is committed to strengthening the BSL workforce and recognises the importance of BSL interpreters available in Wales. It's vital that we work in collaboration with deaf BSL signers to ensure that their needs and priorities are met. We've already begun this work with the Welsh Government BSL stakeholder task and finish group, which has produced both short-term and long-term recommendations in relation to the BSL workforce. This must be the foundation of any future activity. I recognise the ESJ Committee's recommendation to be more ambitious in our approach, and I accept the need to include clear targets as part of the BSL strategy.

Members will recall that, in response to Mark Isherwood's legislative oral statement on the introduction of the BSL (Wales) Bill on 16 July, I confirmed that the Welsh Government will provide the costs for the first year in full, for 2026-27, of £214,300. This was based on the figures in the Member's RIA, and I'm pleased that the Finance Committee was content with the financial implications of the Bill. In my response to their report, I outlined my acceptance of their recommendations and a financial resolution for the Bill. I recognise the support of the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language in enabling us to have that very clearly identified in terms of those costs.

I would also like to refer to the recommendation by the Finance Committee to conduct a post-implementation review. It will be essential that the implementation of the national BSL strategy and guidance will be monitored as the Act progresses, to ensure that its aims and purposes are being realised. Having reflected on the evidence presented during Stage 1, the Welsh Government is satisfied that the general principles of the Bill should be supported. The Bill provides a necessary framework to address gaps in current provision, offers a proportionate and focused approach, and aligns with our commitment to fairness and inclusion.

In closing, I reiterate the Welsh Government's appreciation for the thorough work undertaken by the committees and all contributors to Stage 1. The Bill represents a significant opportunity to ensure the full participation of BSL signers in Wales. While there is more work to do, the Welsh Government believes that the general principles and financial resolution merit support. I will continue to offer my support to Mark Isherwood and stand ready to work collaboratively with Members to refine and strengthen the Bill as it progresses. We have an opportunity to build on the constructive and collaborative approach that has characterised discussions so far, ensuring that this spirit continues as the Bill progresses. Diolch yn fawr.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome, once again, the British Sign Language Bill and to thank Mark for his exceptional work on this piece of vital legislation. As a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I had the pleasure of taking evidence from Mark and a whole host of witnesses who have a keen interest in this Bill. What was abundantly clear from our evidence sessions was the widespread support for Mark and his Bill. It was also clear that a BSL Bill is long overdue. To quote the British Deaf Association, the Bill provides a clear foundation to drive progress for deaf signers across Wales. It gives a new focus on information being available in BSL and it presents deaf signers as full citizens of Wales, making a substantive contribution to our country rather than being a burden. For deaf signers across Wales, this respect and recognition of ourselves as a distinct language minority is critical. End quote.

The last point in particular hits home to me. Prior to taking evidence on this Bill, I saw BSL as a communication tool rather than a language with all of its cultural implications. We owe it to the deaf signing community to put as much effort into protecting this language as we do the other languages of Wales, if not more. After all, we can choose whether to siarad Cymraeg; for deaf signers, it is not a choice. Our committee made a number of recommendations to improve the legislation, but above all, we recommended that the Senedd agrees to the general principles of the BSL Bill. I hope that every Member will support our recommendations and agree to support Wales's deaf signing community by getting behind Mark's Bill, helping to make it better at Stages 2 and 3, and ensuring that it becomes law in 2026. Diolch yn fawr.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I would first like to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this progressive Bill. This is an important piece of legislation, and Plaid Cymru is supportive of its core principles.

In recent years, we have seen increasing recognition of the importance of BSL as a language in Wales, along with greater efforts to make it visible and a part of public life. It's good to see more use of BSL interpreters in Senedd proceedings recently. But goodwill or the occasional positive action here and there, in themselves, are not enough, of course. We need a solid legislative foundation to make real progress in enabling the deaf community to access services and information, and, perhaps most importantly, to ensure recognition and respect of BSL as one of the languages of Wales.

This Bill, therefore, relates to fundamental rights—the right of each individual to use their own language. Language is a part of our identity, our culture and our personal dignity. When someone cannot use their language, they are excluded from education, healthcare, employment and public life, and that is not acceptable in today's Wales, which prides itself on its inclusive nature. The impact of not ensuring consistent opportunities to use BSL creates harmful inequality.

This Bill not only relates, therefore, to human rights and equality, but it is also a prudent economic investment, I would argue. When we ensure equal access for deaf people to all opportunities, we open doors for them to make a full contribution to the economy. This Bill offers an opportunity to start creating the change that is needed in this regard, therefore, and I chose my words carefully there when declaring that this Bill would be the start of creating change.

I would like to quote what one of the participants in the committee's engagement work told us, because I think that it crystallises not only why we need to support the basic principles of the Bill, but also what needs to happen after we do that, and the risk of not doing that properly. They said:

'If the Bill doesn’t do what we want it to do, we’re going to be a very, very angry, disappointed, dejected Deaf community in Wales, because the existing levers are not working. The Equality Act isn’t working for us, the accessible standards in health are not working—so pretty much every sector in Wales isn’t working…. I want to see a massive change where you feel included in your community.'

We have a duty, therefore, to ensure that this Bill does not dash these hopes for change. I'm pleased to see that the Member in charge of the Bill accepts almost all of our recommendations regarding how to reduce that risk. I agree with the British Deaf Association, which told us that it's not appropriate, possible or efficient for non-signers to lead the way for that change.

I was in favour of ensuring that the BSL adviser who will drive that work is a person who is a deaf BSL signer, and someone who therefore not only brings understanding and valuable life experience to the role, but also becomes an exemplar of deaf leadership. That was a minority view on the committee, and the Bill as it stands includes only a requirement that the person being appointed can communicate effectively in BSL. I would therefore like to ask whether the Member in charge of the Bill can explore how to achieve this goal in another way through the Bill, for example by ensuring that the views of a panel of deaf signers would be pre-eminent in the appointment process, or by introducing a duty to consult with the deaf community on the appointment.

The other major risk is not securing an adequate workforce of BSL interpreters and translators to support the aims of the Bill, and I again agree that the work to expand the workforce in the field of BSL interpretation should start immediately. We don't need to wait for the passing of this Bill. Having said that, we genuinely need to support deaf leadership by ensuring that deaf BSL signers take the lead in public institutions that need to serve the deaf community, and through that, it would be possible to reduce the costs and the pressures on organisations, and it would also provide opportunities and role models for deaf BSL signers, thereby creating a more productive and inclusive Wales. Would it be possible to place a duty on bodies and organisations to promote opportunities for roles and jobs better among the deaf community?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Sioned—

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm coming to an end now. One of the biggest challenges, therefore, is ensuring that this Bill is delivered in full, and I look forward to seeing how this, as well as the other recommendations, are reflected in the second stage of the Bill, and Plaid Cymru look forward to playing our part in that. Thank you.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'd like to also thank Mark Isherwood for all his tireless work on this Bill, and I'm very pleased to speak in this very important debate. I do hope the Senedd will agree with the general principles. I was a member of the committee that looked at the Bill, and I think I agree with what Jenny Rathbone said at the beginning when she made her contribution, that it was a privilege to take part in that process. I think it clearly brought home to the committee the importance of recognising BSL as a language. As the briefing that we've had from the British Deaf Association says, the Bill presents deaf signers as full citizens of Wales, making a substantial contribution to our country, rather than being a burden. I think that is a key part of what this Bill is going to do—it's going to mean that signers are full citizens and fully part of an inclusive society.

I think this point is reflected in our discussion on the role of the BSL adviser, which Sioned has already mentioned, because this is an absolutely crucial post, and as has already been said, it is a unique post and the other countries in the UK don't have such a post. So, it really is an absolutely great opportunity to make sure that we get somebody who can lead this strongly from the front. Our recommendation 7 calls for consideration of how the needs of the deaf community are reflected appropriately in the appointment process. Obviously, if a deaf adviser were to be appointed, this would be so important to the deaf community and would serve as a role model. So, I do hope that the Government will consider that carefully, but I do note what the Member taking the Bill through said, about how he couldn't risk losing the Bill by requiring the adviser to be deaf. But I think that has got to be looked at very carefully.

The other important point I wanted to highlight is recommendation 12, urging the Welsh Government to ramp up efforts to expand the BSL interpreter workforce. We all know how difficult it is to get interpreters when needed. It's also been reiterated to me how important it is for professionals who are trying to get interpreters to be aware of how the system works, because a request for an interpreter does not mean you automatically have one, and that is absolutely crucial, particularly in the health field. It's been mentioned already here this afternoon how health is one of the key areas where we need BSL interpreters urgently, where a patient or carer's understanding of the situation can actually be a matter of life or death.

This was brought home to me very strongly by one of my constituents, a deaf constituent with two very small children who had to spend long periods of time in the children's hospital at the University Hospital of Wales because of the complex medical condition of one of her children. She was able to have three hours of interpretation a day, which was all that was available, which didn't always coincide with when interpretation was needed. She described a very difficult situation where consent was needed for an operation, but an interpreter wasn't available. It's for those really difficult situations that we have to make sure that interpreters are available. So, I think that's a very important part of the Bill, so that parents, carers and patients can have information.

The importance of BSL, finally, was brought home to me when Dorothy Miles was honoured by having Wales's sixteenth purple plaque in Rhyl, when people came from all parts of the UK to see this purple plaque unveiled, because this was an opportunity to celebrate the BSL culture. Dorothy Miles became the first woman to write and perform deaf poetry, and teaching deaf and hearing people of the importance of sign language, and of it as a true and potent language. So, I think the cultural issue is also so important. This is a very important bit of legislation today, and I'm very pleased to have taken part in the committee process. I do hope it will be accepted unanimously by the Senedd today.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I want to join the long queue of people who are thanking Mark Isherwood for bringing this Bill forward here today. I'm very proud to speak on it and to have been part of the committee that scrutinised it at Stage 1. I'd also like to welcome and pay tribute to people who are with us this afternoon as well, many stakeholders, I can see, who gave evidence to us. Thank you to you. I learnt a lot in terms of the language, in terms of the culture and in terms of what we need to scrutinise, so I'm very grateful to you specifically.

This speaks to me of what we should all care deeply about—fairness, dignity and making sure that everyone in Wales can take part fully in public life. For too long, deaf BSL signers have had to fight to be seen and heard. This Bill is an opportunity to say clearly that deaf people are a valued, linguistic and cultural community with enormous contributions to make in Wales. We are the ones who need to adjust our arrangements. If this legislation is to make a real difference in people's lives, we have to be honest about what still needs to change and what actions need to be taken.

The clearest and most practical challenge we face to this Bill is the crisis in interpretation. We were absolutely right, in our report in the Equality and Social Justice Committee, to identify the shortage of BSL interpreters and translators as the single biggest threat to effective implementation of this Bill. As of July of this year, there were just 54 registered sign language interpreters based in Wales—54. Many of those trained through the BSL Futures programme nearly 20 years ago, and are now, respectfully, approaching the end of their working lives. But without action now, as we've heard, the risk is obvious: longer waits, poorer access to services and deaf people still struggling to attend medical appointments, as we've heard, engage with public bodies or participate fully in civic life.

We had our own experience, because I know that our committee clerks, who are seated here today, and I do thank them, struggled to book interpreters for the sessions of our committee. We cannot—we must not—allow this Bill to fail because we didn't have the foresight to address this crisis now. As Mark has acknowledged in his response, the expansion of the BSL interpreter workforce would be necessary even without this Bill. I welcome, therefore, the Welsh Government's acceptance of the committee's recommendation to expand the workforce and look forward to seeing the publishing of the BSL route-map in early 2026.

I just want to touch on one other issue and that is the importance of deaf leadership in this field. The British Deaf Association have been crystal clear on this point. They put it:

'We do not believe that it is appropriate, possible or efficient for non-signers to lead on determining the path for our future lives'.

Deaf BSL signers bring a lifetime of lived experience and expertise. They understand the barriers, the frustrations and the missed opportunities. They know what works and what doesn't. It is hard to justify asking them to wait while hearing people, however well intentioned, attempt to work this out through interpreters and consultation exercises. Like Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats believe that the BSL adviser should come from the deaf BSL community. However, we do acknowledge the risks that that might lead to this Bill, but it is important to state on record that there should be careful consideration of how the appointments process for both the BSL adviser and the advisory panel is designed. This cannot be a standard public appointments process; it must be shaped explicitly with deaf leadership in mind.

I finish, Dirprwy Lywydd, by saying that this framework legislation is incredibly important, but frameworks need foundations. Foundations require investment and they must be built by the people whose lives this Bill is meant to change. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Today we have the opportunity to discuss a piece of legislation that can transform lives across Wales—the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill, introduced by Mark Isherwood. I and Reform warmly welcome this Bill and I extend my sincere thanks to the Member in charge, Mark, for his unwavering persistence in bringing it forward. It has been long overdue, hasn't it? For years Mark has championed the rights of deaf people, chairing the cross-party group on deaf issues and listening to the lived experience of the deaf community. As Mark rightly stated, consultation and engagement have revealed strong support for the Bill throughout Wales. The Bill is the culmination of dedication, and it deserves our full support. British Sign Language is not a means of communication; as has been said, it's a rich, vibrant language in its own right. It's a first, preferred language for thousands of deaf people across Wales, yet, too often, they face barriers when accessing public services, education, healthcare and employment, and, without proper support, they are denied equality and the chance to participate fully in society. This Bill seeks to change that by placing duties on Welsh Ministers and public bodies to actively promote and facilitate the use of BSL. It aims to make Wales the strongest nation in the UK for BSL users, going further in legislation than in Scotland, in England and in Northern Ireland.

A key area where this matters most is education. In Wales, there is no dedicated specialist school solely for deaf pupils. Instead, deaf children are supported in mainstream schools or through specialist resource spaces, supported by teachers of the deaf, who are in declining numbers. This approach can work when the right adaptations are in place, but, too often, schools lack the resources, training or interpreters needed to make it effective. And in Wales, we face challenges providing sufficient specialist support as teachers retire. This is something that I have grave concerns about: whether we can train and recruit to achieve the aims of this Bill. The Bill gives us a chance to move that from good will to consistency, so that access to BSL support does not depend on postcode, budget pressure or the determination of individual staff.

Let me share a few positive examples that clearly demonstrate what is possible in my own constituency region. At Ysgol Gymraeg Gwynllyw in Trevethin, a Welsh-medium school, a pupil with special educational needs, including deafness, is thriving. Thanks to the tailored support, dedicated staff and appropriate adaptations, this young person is fully engaged, achieving their potential and enjoying mainstream school life. This is the kind of success that we should see everywhere.

Only this morning I was able to attend a Church in Wales primary school's carol service for the community in their school, where I was delighted to hear a beautiful rendition of 'We Wish You a Merry Christmas'. As well as singing, the children were also signing along to the music, and it was just wonderful to see that sort of inclusivity. These instances give me real hope that the passing of this Bill will make a positive contribution to people's lives in Wales, and that there is an appetite for it.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Will you take an intervention?

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Of course.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm rather puzzled by your support for this Bill, because I note that every Reform—. When we do hear about their policies, which isn't that often, one of the things we do hear about very often is that they want to scrap diversity, inclusion and equality roles in our local authorities across the country. So, why are you in support of this Bill? How can you be in support of this Bill while also defending and proposing that diversity, inclusion and equality roles should be scrapped?

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

I find it deeply regrettable that you're making something so important party political. I do not think this—[Interruption.] No, I don't think this is appropriate. I'm actually saying—[Interruption.] In this Chamber now, I am committing us to this. I think it's very important, and I know that I have the backing of my party on it.

This Bill will drive exactly the improvements—better access to BSL in classrooms, more teacher training and guidance—to ensure schools make the necessary adaptations. It will help remove barriers so that every deaf child in Wales can flourish, regardless of where they live.

Deputy Presiding Officer, this is a moment for unity, but unity must be matched by delivery. The success of this Bill will depend on proper guidance, realistic funding and meaningful engagement with deaf organisations as it's implemented. The Welsh Government has already signalled its support, which is welcome, and we have seen cross-party backing in previous stages. I hope and I believe that this Bill will receive unanimous cross-party support as it progresses. Together, we can send a powerful message that Wales values BSL as a language, respects the deaf community and is committed to true equality. So, thank you to the committees for their work, and I echo much of what has already been said. Let us accept the general principles laid before us today, take forward this Bill and let's build a more inclusive Wales for generations to come. Diolch.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Good afternoon, everyone. Diolch, Polly. Diolch, Martin. Diolch, Mark. Polly from RNID, Martin from BDA, diolch for their engagement with me for this speech. But, more importantly, a big diolch to Cedric Moon, a constituent who has contacted me over the last few years, a tireless deaf campaigner, and has taught me so much about the deaf community. Before receiving correspondence from Cedric Moon, I was totally ignorant about BSL. I did not realise that BSL was a language. I imagine that is true, that ignorance is true, of many people out in our community, but BSL is a language. And we all know, especially those of us who speak more than one language, how powerful language is. It's more than just words. It connects us. It shapes our identity. Speaking more than one language opens opportunities, opens cultures. It's how we learn, how we work, how we contribute and how we participate in society. But, for the deaf community here in Wales, British Sign Language or BSL is not just an important tool, is not something nice to have, it's a lifeline. And I've received similar e-mails as Julie Morgan has received about parents being in hospital and struggling, not having that interpreter present when a loved one is ill. It's a lifeline. It shouldn't be seen as an afterthought or a niche matter, but a language that is integral to our society. We need to normalise BSL in the same way that we've normalised the Welsh language. I hope that this BSL Act will take us on the same route that the Welsh language has gone in Wales, by putting BSL on an equal footing.

Laura Anne Jones mentioned about going to her children's nativity play recently. Last week, I went to Ysgol Treganna’s nativity play, and they signed to every song. Every song was signed. And my five-year-old now is teaching me how to sign. She loves it; she loves to be able to sign. But we have to admit, despite positive steps, that BSL faces incredible challenges. We've heard this afternoon about shortages of BSL interpreters and also shortages of BSL teachers, that there is no deaf school in Wales anymore. The stakeholder group had made recommendations that the Welsh Government should act now to try and sort out the gaps, so that a lack of BSL interpreters does not block the ambitions of this fantastic Bill.

There also needs to be better data on the BSL workforce here in Wales. We know that we only have 54 interpreters in Wales now, but we don't know how many more are needed to plug the gap. We also need to make sure that there’s better co-operation between various bodies, between local authorities, between health boards, between education services. They all should be sharing resources rather than them being kept in silos. They all should be sharing the resource they have. Of course, as with everything—we heard this quite clearly yesterday—plugging the gap will cost money, but I'm confident that short-term cost will lead to long-term gain. A RAND report suggested that every £1 invested in BSL teaching for families and children aged zero to five yields about £14 in return.

In Wales, we currently support interpretation and translation of 140 plus community languages. One of these is BSL, and it is the third most requested language in Wales to be translated and interpreted. With this in mind, BSL should be a priority group, as their beautiful visual language is rightly recognised as one of the four indigenous languages of the UK, and a vital form of communicating for so many people. It’s a language that should empower people. It should frame deaf signers as assets, and BSL as a solution and not as a burden or an inconvenience. I mentioned yesterday in my question to the FM that Welsh and English are equal in law here in Wales. May I suggest that we should become a trilingual nation, with a place for Welsh, English, but also for BSL in our society? Diolch yn fawr.