Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 26 November 2025

259 contributions from 36 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda today will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. The first question is from Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

1. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to improve road connectivity in Vale of Clwyd? OQ63492

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We're investing in Denbighshire’s roads through the resilient roads fund and maintenance programmes. The local government borrowing initiative funding has provided, so far, £2.8 million. That's led to around 2,500 potholes being fixed or prevented, and, by the end of the year, it will amount to around 6,000. We've also recently launched, of course, the new TrawsCymru T51 bus service to improve connectivity across the Vale of Clwyd.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. The last major road infrastructure project in the Vale of Clwyd was the Rhuddlan bypass, back in 1997—a UK Government project, predating devolution. Since devolution, we haven't had any major road improvements in the infrastructure and connectivity, despite the population of Denbighshire increasing around 6,000 since the Rhuddlan bypass was built. Whilst it's nice to see more people moving to our area, we never see the investment in infrastructure to serve the increasing population. It's one of the most common complaints elected officials hear from constituents, particularly in regard to new housing developments. If the desire is to see fewer cars on the road, we need to see significant investments in public transport too, but we don't see that in north Wales either. Connectivity in my constituency is deteriorating, with the failure of the local authority to build Llannerch bridge, connecting Trefnant and Tremeirchion, and the added congestion caused by 20 mph. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline why my constituency hasn't seen any significant investments in road infrastructure for the last 27 years, and how is he monitoring the sufficiency of road infrastructure in response to changing demographics?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

There are a number of questions that the Member asked. First of all, there's a resilience study looking at the A55 corridor. That study will look at how the trunk road interacts with the local road network as well. Funding of almost £1 million of resilient road funds was made available in this financial year to Denbighshire County Council, to look at making improvements to the routes used as an alternative to Llannerch bridge. I think the most important thing to point out, though, is that Denbighshire is part of north Wales, and north Wales has published its regional transport plan—a very ambitious plan, and I commend the region for its production. That now will attract funding from the Welsh Government of £29 million next year. Over a five-year period, that means that, at next year's funding, it will be almost £150 million to spend against transport priorities. That is a huge investment in the region, and, crucially, it will be the region itself that decides where to spend money and what to spend money on, including in Denbighshire.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Since changing from being a cabinet member in charge of highways to a Member of the Senedd, I've been campaigning for funds to fix our local road network. I'm really pleased that we've got the pothole and highway infrastructure funds, which I welcome. It's £120 million over two years, and it's making a difference, with 21,000 potholes being fixed across north Wales in the last six months. So, I was going to ask you about the devolution of local transport grants—the difference it will make to the area. I know you have touched on it already, so I'm just going to come in with another question. We're fixing all these roads. Our rural network gets really impacted by water run-off, off fields, from gullies and ditches that aren't maintained. So, as soon as they're fixed, that water run-off can create gullies and wash the surface away again. So, what conversations are you having with the Deputy First Minister regarding ensuring that landowners make sure that they look after their gullies and ditches?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely. Responsibility is key here. Whether it be individual landowners, or whether it be local authorities or the trunk road agency, it's absolutely vital that culverts are cleared and that we do maintain not just the road surface but drainage systems as well. I know from one of my brothers, who's a road engineer, just how important it is to regularly clean culverts and ensure that water can run off smoothly. You're right, the local government borrowing initiative is making a huge difference across Wales in terms of local roads alone. The figure now stands at almost 150,000 in terms of the number of potholes that have been fixed or are being prevented as a result of the investment, and there will be devolution of the funding to the regions of Wales. As I said to Gareth Davies, it will amount, over a five-year period, to almost £150 million, at this year's figures, for north Wales. That will enable the region to spend against the priorities that it's identified in the regional transport plan, and in so doing it will enable local authorities to be able to use revenue to clean systems and ensure that surface water can be drained away as efficiently as possible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OQ63467] is withdrawn. Question 3, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

3. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the UK Department for Transport on changes and improvements to the relief line in Cardiff South and Penarth? OQ63473

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I have had regular and exciting discussions with UK Ministers regarding rail enhancements, including the south Wales relief lines upgrade and Burns stations, funded in the spending review. Delivery will be overseen by the Welsh and UK Government Wales rail board and will transform travel across south-east Wales into south-west England.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the response, Cabinet Secretary. This is a significant piece of infrastructure work and a key enabler for the new Cardiff parkway proposal in St Mellons in the east of my consistency. It is endorsed in the Burns report. Getting it right should help to deliver the vision of a mainline train stop that also runs regular local services. There is a need to move at pace to deliver the transport and jobs that the parkway should provide. The First Minister made clear yesterday her wholehearted support for the parkway. I hope that the Chancellor will confirm some more UK Government support for the parkway today. The blocks to progress must now be removed with pace and delivery. Do you agree with me that what is required is a unified and ambitious plan from team Wales, one set of figures, based on the same vision, with the unambiguous support of Welsh Government economy and transport teams, together with the private sector developers? And if you do agree with me, will you and your colleague Rebecca Evans agree to meet with me and the leader of Cardiff Council, Huw Thomas, to ensure that that vision is delivered?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I couldn't agree more with the Member. We have to get all partners together to realise this project. It is a hugely important project, which, as the FM pointed out yesterday, will create jobs, jobs, jobs. And that's what it's about. It's the economic benefit. It's not just a transport project. This is about prosperity. I'd be more than happy to meet with the Member and the leader of Cardiff Council, alongside Rebecca Evans. Perhaps we could meet at the site of parkway. Also, I'll be raising this issue in December when I meet with Lord Hendy as part of the Wales rail board. I can confirm that the UK Government will enable delivery of the Burns stations and that Cardiff parkway will be included as part of the programme of upgrading the relief lines to enable it to happen.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, you'll know that, two and a half years ago, the Welsh Government decided to scrap the vast majority of road-building projects here in Wales. What is your assessment of the economic impact of that decision?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

It was undertaken on the basis of needing to consider the environment, the climate emergency and the need to protect biodiversity. Economic factors were featured in considerations. Even though I wasn't in Government at the time, I know that the economy Minister at the time was very keen to ensure that economic factors were considered as part of that work. In terms of moving forward, I can confirm that the tests no longer exist as they were designed. They are now proposals, ensuring that roads are better designed and better built. We've also added, in the guidance, a lengthier section concerning capacity and when capacity on our roads should be increased.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Whilst I noted some of the shift in tone, I'm still yet to hear any assessment by the Welsh Government of the economic impact of that significant decision to no longer move ahead with the vast majority of those well-identified road-building projects. We need investment in that road infrastructure to address congestion, improve safety and support economic growth. There are key projects like the M4 relief road, A465 Heads of the Valleys improvements, the A483 upgrades, A55 enhancements and, of course, a third Menai crossing, which are all vital to modernising our transport network. The M4 relief road in particular, as you will know, was identified as a top priority due to that severe congestion around Newport. We know that the Welsh Government spent over £150 million on planning that relief road before scrapping the project in 2019, as you identified, citing environmental concerns and costs. This, though, is a decision that has left a critical gap in our infrastructure. So, Cabinet Secretary, when will you make that assessment on the economic impact of these decisions, and when do you intend to see key projects like these being delivered here in Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we know that the cost of some of the projects that the Member has just outlined became too great for the Welsh Government to afford, not least because the economic impact of the Truss mini-budget and ongoing austerity, and leaving the EU as well, had an impact on the availability of funding. We've produced a national transport delivery plan that is both realistic and ambitious, and we're also devolving funding to the regions so that they can invest against their own regional transport plans.

I can confirm today that the M4 resilience study will be under way very shortly. It will look at how we can futureproof the corridor and how the M4 interacts with the operation of local roads, particularly in and around Newport. Alongside this, I'm very pleased that we secured the money in the comprehensive spending review for the stations that were recommended by the South East Wales Transport Commission to be delivered. And, of course, in next year's draft budget, we've also included money for non-rail-related projects from the South East Wales Transport Commission's recommendations to be taken forward. A huge amount of work is being undertaken to make transport smoother, more reliable and more convenient in south-east Wales, as it is right across the whole of Wales.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you again for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You referred to the national transport delivery plan and have referenced the importance of rail within that. Now, we have seen in recent days leaks, ahead of the announcement by the Chancellor today, that rail fares in England are to be frozen. Can you confirm that that will also take place here in Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I very much welcome that announcement—it's very welcome. It will help a huge number of people with the cost-of-living challenge. It will apply, of course, to thousands of tickets that are purchased for services on Avanti West Coast, Great Western Railway, CrossCountry, which operate in and out of Wales. And once we've got the details from the budget today—. I haven't had the opportunity, in spite of the Office for Budget Responsibility's malfunction, to be able to identify the section regarding the rail fares freeze, but once we've got the detail, we'll know exactly what is available in terms of consequentials, because this will be quite a costly action by the UK Government. And then we'll be able to make a decision on rail fares for Transport for Wales services. But, of course, we wish to use all the levers that are available to us to help people with the cost-of-living challenges that they face.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson now—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, the First Minister spoke about her long shopping list for Westminster's budget. I'd like to think that fair rail funding for Wales was near the top, but today we see, once again, that your Labour colleagues at the other end of the M4 simply haven't been listening. Let's remember, in opposition, Labour said Wales was owed over £4 billion from HS2. Now they're in power, that promise has quietly disappeared—another u-turn. The uncomfortable truth is that this Government has no influence over its Westminster counterparts. You told us you would not stay silent if Starmer's Government harmed Welsh communities, but from here, Cabinet Secretary, it sounds like the mute button has been on. So, can I ask, politely and plainly: are you disappointed with the lack of a train infrastructure funding element in today's budget?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the rail infrastructure funding was announced as part of the comprehensive spending review, which allocated £445 million—not just delivery within this spending period, but also development within this spending period for rail infrastructure. If you look at some of the major programmes of work that will be funded as a result of that £445 million in this single spending review, you'll appreciate that, actually, it unlocks not just hundreds of millions, but, potentially, billions of pounds in the next spending review and the review after that. And I'll provide an example: Network North Wales. The cost of Network North Wales has been estimated at around £2.2 billion. Now, what the UK Government did with the CSR was they unlocked the first key components of Network North Wales—i.e. infrastructure works on the Wrexham-Liverpool line and infrastructure works on the north Wales main line, which will then facilitate further investment in future spending rounds. So, I think it's important that Members don't just see the £445 million as a one-off; this is a start of the process.

And in many respects, because the tap has been turned off for so long, it's suddenly been turned on and we have to make sure that we get that money spent within that spending period. One of the concerns that I've got is the pace of delivery has to be incredibly fast to ensure that we don't hand back any money that's related to rail investment from this spending period. I'm confident we can do that, but you look at some of the projects that have been held back and how much work can now take place—and we're talking about a huge effort by Network Rail and by Transport for Wales—to deliver the stations, deliver the relief lines, deliver the north Wales main line upgrade, deliver the Wrexham to Liverpool line upgrade, deliver the work at Padeswood. These are huge projects that have to be undertaken within this spending period, and which, in turn, will then unlock huge sums of investment in future spending rounds. That's what the purpose of the Wales rail board will be—to ensure that both the Welsh Government and the UK Government work together to identify those strategically important projects that can be supported, not as a one-off, but as an ongoing process of funding, so that we can have that guarantee that the historic underinvestment in the Welsh rail network is finally addressed.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer. But you see the frustration that today's budget continues, or seems to continue, along Westminster's tradition of seemingly short-changing—yet another year where our taxpayers are funding rail routes that they rarely use and whilst investment flows across Offa's Dyke. The HS2 Oxford to Cambridge lines were wrongly classified as England and Wales projects, costing us billions. And I appreciate what you're saying there, but fundamentally, then, the Barnett formula is only one side of the problem. Even Welsh Labour's own manifesto admits the fiscal framework is outdated. So, can you confirm—? Do you accept that the full review of a fiscal framework is overdue—one that deals not just with Barnett, but with the billions Wales has lost through that misclassification, including HS2, which happened outside the Barnett formula? And do you also agree that correcting the injustice and investing properly in Welsh infrastructure is not just fair, but also fiscally responsible to get economic parity?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I don't want to step on the toes of the finance Minister; he's far better informed than I am on these matters. However, what I would say is that we now have a Chancellor, the first Chancellor in my memory, who has said that the Treasury Green Book—the rules that apply to investment across the UK—is not fit for purpose in terms of fair investment.

Now, the previous UK Government called their project to invest in certain parts of the UK 'levelling up'. What the Chancellor is doing is actually saying, 'We need to step away from some of the rules within the Treasury Green Book, to make sure that we have fairer investment across the UK.' And that's been demonstrated with the comprehensive spending review. I'd say again, it's not for the budget, it's for the comprehensive spending review to allocate major investment in infrastructure projects, and that's precisely what we got.

In addition, if we just look very recently at some of the other investments in Wales that we've been able to secure as a result of two Governments working in partnership: Wylfa—the small modular reactors that are going to be coming to Wylfa—huge; alongside that, the artificial intelligence growth zone. Between them they will create more jobs than I can remember being created in two projects that are side by side in north Wales in history—well, certainly in my lifetime. I cannot recall an announcement like the one that was made by the Prime Minister recently. And then we've got the investment zones. We've got the commitment to growth deals, the commitment to city deals and a commitment to the rail projects. We have a Government at Westminster that wants to and is investing in Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

But there is a cognitive dissonance in what you're saying here today with some of what we've been hearing from the Secretary of State telling Plaid Cymru in Westminster that we couldn't physically spend more than £350 million-worth of investment in rail enhancements up to 2030. Yet we've obviously got, as you've described, over £3 billion-worth of Welsh rail schemes at business case stages. We're told that the money is flowing into public services, yet when it comes to rail, Westminster's position was simply that Wales couldn't spend it, and this Government seems to not have challenged that. There's a lack of ambition in what we want to achieve.

So, I fully accept that rail devolution won't happen overnight—we all know that—but today's budget makes one thing painfully clear: that the Welsh Government doesn't have that influence over UK Government that you seem to be saying. So, can I ask, why has the Welsh Government chosen to accept Westminster's limit as if it were fact? And does the Cabinet Secretary genuinely believe Wales lacks the capacity to invest beyond £350 million in its own rail network? Cabinet Secretary, where is that ambition? Where's it gone?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

[Inaudible.]—ambition. We've got huge ambition, which has been demonstrated by what we've done on the south-east Wales metro and what we're doing now on the north Wales network. The challenge that we face with all rail-related infrastructure is pace—pace of delivery, pace of development—and this spending period is actually relatively short. We've only got four years to the end of the decade, and to deliver some rail schemes takes a lot longer. If you look at the Elizabeth line, for example, or you look at the HS1 line, these were schemes that were years upon years in development and took seemingly forever to actually deliver.

The challenge we face here in Britain is delivery of major infrastructure projects. Planning is a major issue as well, and consenting. If we look at Cardiff parkway, for example, that took, I think it was years rather than months, to secure the planning. If you don't get planning, you can't build. And so, actually, the challenge for us is not in terms of ambition, it's not in terms of the number of projects, it's in terms of how fast we can develop and deliver these major infrastructure projects. And as I say, this is a problem for the whole of the UK and it's not just transport related, this is related to other infrastructure.

In terms of what the Secretary of State said, she was right that it's all about our ability to be able to spend enhancement money. So, we're going to be spending all of the enhancement money that we can. As I said, my fear is that pace will slow down. It cannot afford to slow down. We need to ensure that all of those programmes of work are taken forward.

And in terms of future developments, the greater ambition, which will be published by an industry-led prospectus in December, in terms of the longer term grand ambition, we secured in the spending review development money. And it's huge development money, it's £95 million. That will enable us to take projects forward to the point of being able to get shovels in the ground. But one of the barriers that we will face—I have to flag it up with Members—is the need to move at pace, particularly when it comes to planning and consenting. And that's why I welcomed so much the First Minister's commitment to do all that is required to make Wales the fastest place to get planning.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government's progress in repairing and maintaining local roads across Mid and West Wales? OQ63486

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course. We've provided over £29 million for local road improvements across Mid and West Wales this year, as well as repairing 36 miles of trunk road and fixing 17,000 potholes. Funding supports resurfacing, drainage and active travel, ensuring rural communities benefit from safer, more resilient transport infrastructure.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I very much welcome that announcement from Welsh Government, and that road refurbishment programme. And it will fund 22 separate projects across our road network. And in addition to this new funding, our local councils have already repaired thousands of potholes on over 216 miles of road through the local government borrowing scheme. And one such local road to benefit from this is Arnold's Hill on the A40 within my constituency in Pembrokeshire, an investment that will undoubtedly improve road safety by both fixing existing potholes and preventing new ones from developing, particularly as we approach the winter months. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that this funding demonstrates that fixing our roads is a key priority for this Welsh Government?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank Joyce Watson for her supplementary question, and I agree entirely. Fixing roads is a priority and it will remain a priority for the remainder of this Senedd term. So far, around 420 km of local roads have been addressed through this particular scheme. It's a huge, huge amount of road that has been improved as a result of the investment. And as we were talking about just this morning in committee, it's not just about the roads as well, it's also about footways, it's about bridges. So, we have to make sure that bridges are properly maintained, and this was highlighted in the Lugg review, which looked at the condition of the road network across Wales and concluded that more money needed to be spent on maintenance. We are doing exactly what was recommended.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your answer to Joyce Watson and for highlighting the additional money that's going into local government. However, what we see in Powys County Council, which is controlled by the Liberal Democrats—they have cut over 200 miles out of their gritting regime for this winter, and that is a lifeline to many people to get to work, get to hospital appointments and go about their daily business. It's a shame the Lib Dem yet again isn't here to hear it on a Wednesday. But Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to know from you what can the Welsh Government do to make sure that Powys County Council are putting money into the gritting regime to make sure our roads across Powys are safe enough for people to travel on this winter?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I can see clearly that the Member is engaged in his local re-election campaign already. [Laughter.] But he makes a really important point, actually. He makes a vitally important point that connectivity is related to the ability of local authorities to be able to grit and to spend money on maintenance. And that's why it's vitally important that this Welsh Government that has supported councils over many years, in spite of austerity, goes on doing so. Powys has secured over £5.7 million as a result of the local government borrowing initiative. It's one of the best performers when it comes to drawing down money for fixing potholes and fixing roads. So, I won't come between yourselves and the Liberal Democrats; I'll just say that this Welsh Labour Government is doing all it can to support Powys.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

5. How is the Welsh Government ensuring access to transport for disabled people? OQ63460

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This Welsh Government recognises that many disabled people rely on public transport and are investing in several initiatives across bus and rail to improve accessibility. Our transport-for-all approach and the ongoing Bus Services (Wales) Bill represent some of the opportunities to improve accessibility across the public transport network.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, questioning the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice here last month about the need for lifelong blue badges for individuals with lifelong conditions, I stated it's inconsistent top-down local authority interpretation of Welsh Government guidance that leads repeatedly to disabled applicants being denied or being denied to renew a new blue badge. In her response, she stated:

'I certainly will be giving this attention alongside the Cabinet Secretary for transport.'

In response to Carolyn Thomas's question to the First Minister last week on the petition to make blue badges lifelong for those with lifelong conditions, the First Minister said:

'For people with lifelong conditions that significantly impact their physical or cognitive mobility...we've reinforced the not-for-reassessment route...and provided enhanced guidance and additional training to local authorities on using it.'

The petitioner, STAND North Wales, has welcomed this, but stressed that consistent practices across local authorities are needed, ensuring fair treatment and preventing refusals due to misunderstanding of conditions or concerns about fraud. As they said, whilst new training is positive, it must be mandatory, uniform across Wales and reviewed annually, adding that clear guidance on rights exemptions from reassessment and a transparent appeals process are essential where lifelong conditions often do not fit current criteria, leaving people excluded. So, what plans do you have to ensure guidance and training are mandatory, consistent and regularly reviewed?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the member for his question and for the questions that he's put to other Ministers on this very important topic, as well as Carolyn Thomas who has a keen interest in this subject? Our goal remains to make the process of obtaining a badge efficient, effective and as stress-free as possible, and to limit as much as possible any anxiety associated with applying for or retaining a blue badge. I think the member is absolutely right—there has to be consistency across all local authorities in Wales. Increasingly, we're taking advice from the access and inclusion panel within Transport for Wales—an excellent panel.

With his permission, I'd like to share the information that he's provided today with the access and inclusion panel, and perhaps also facilitate a meeting with that particular panel, because they are outstanding in advising not just Transport for Wales and Welsh Ministers, but also in holding local government to account. So, I think that meeting may be beneficial indeed.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

A couple of weeks ago, Cabinet Secretary, I raised concerns about the barriers preventing blind or partially sighted passengers from using public transport, but I will be raising something slightly different. Public transport should be for everyone. It's an issue I've raised countless times because the spaces, the stops, the services, the stations—they're not designed for everyone. Wheelchair users can find public transport really difficult to use. I've had people pointing out to me that although the new metro trains really are a big improvement, it's still no use if you can't get to the platform because the lift is broken. Most buses only have space for one wheelchair, so if that space is taken, sometimes by a baby pram, you have to wait for the next bus, which might be hours away, and if you are travelling with someone else who is in a wheelchair, you can't travel together. Do you agree with me that until we eliminate these barriers, public transport can't actually be called 'public' because it isn't working for everyone? And what would you say, please, to those young people who've raised those concerns with me?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

That's a really, really important point. We have to see transport through, I think, the eyes of those who face the highest hurdles and the most severe challenges on a daily basis. That's why we created the transport-for-all agenda. Now, there's a lot that we can do in terms of bus accessibility, and that we will be doing, as a result of franchising, including renewing the fleet. As I told committee this morning, we have the oldest fleet of buses in the United Kingdom, and we want to do with buses what we've done with trains: make it one of the newest fleets anywhere. But, in so doing, we'll set guidelines, we'll set criteria for the new buses on accessibility. We don't want anyone to be prevented from boarding for whatever reason, and so we will be taking into account opportunities associated with the bus Bill and franchising. But we're also currently undertaking a strategic review of those services that we're in full control of—those that are within the TrawsCymru bus network—to ensure that future investment decisions are fully aligned to all passenger needs, so it is truly public.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Disabled people's access to public transport is crucial, and I've been very cheered by the Cabinet Secretary's response to the issues that I've raised, and, in particular, improving the infrastructure to allow disabled people seamless access to public transport.

But, in order for this to work properly, the infrastructure has to be maintained, and Delyth Jewell mentioned in her question about lifts, and I wanted to raise the issue and the concern from constituents that the lift in Llandaff station, in my constituency of Cardiff North, is regularly out of order, and this means that that station is completely inaccessible to many disabled people. The lift's been out of order for a significant amount of time each year for the past six years, and, more recently, the lift has been out of order since the beginning of September until now. So, could the Cabinet Secretary suggest ways that we can work to ensure that the infrastructure that is there is maintained, so that disabled people don't turn up at the station and then are unable to access the trains because of the regularity of, in that particular station, the lift being broken?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd like to thank Julie Morgan for her question. Of course, the Access for All programme has seen significant investment at many, many stations across Wales. Transport for Wales has been responsible for improvements on the core Valleys lines within the metro area. But it's not just the investment to improve stations that matters; it's the investment to maintain station facilities that also matters. Now, it is disappointing that the lifts at Llandaff have not been working of late. I have asked my officials to liaise with Transport for Wales, as they're responsible for it, to make sure that the facilities are maintained properly and that the lifts are operational again as soon as possible.

I should just assure the Member that all Transport for Wales platform and on-board staff are trained to assist passengers with accessibility needs, and Transport for Wales also ensures that bespoke additional support is provided in the event of lift failure to meet the needs of passengers—all passengers—and to minimise disruption. But, as I say, I have asked officials to liaise with Transport for Wales to address the issue at Llandaff as soon as possible.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

6. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to improve the resilience of the Marches line between Cardiff and Hereford? OQ63457

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Great question.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Transport for Wales—. It is indeed. Transport for Wales works closely with Network Rail to strengthen the resilience of the Wales and borders railway. Recent investment has improved resilience on the vitally important Marches route, but more does need to be done to protect our railway against extreme weather events, such as storm Claudia.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Well, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, the Welsh Marches line is vital to Monmouthshire, as you know, and Torfaen, with Abergavenny, New Inn and Cwmbran stations serving over 900,000 passengers in 2023-24. Yet we do repeatedly hear of track issues, line defects and a general lack of resilience across the route. You pointed out storm Claudia and what the effects were from that this time, which left a 2m void, closing the line for three days, which affected about 7,500 people in my constituency. But also the general performance seems to be poor. Over a 12-week period up to September 2025, only 37.8 per cent of trains were on time, while 76.3 per cent arrived within five minutes, 85.7 per cent within 10 minutes, and 90.4 per cent within 15 minutes. Many who use it feel that isn't good enough. So, Cabinet Secretary, for such a busy and essential line, I'm sure you will agree that more needs to be done—you've already recognised that. Can the Welsh Government commit to prioritising any further investment in the Marches line in the near future to address some of those persistent issues?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member, not only for his supplementary question, but also for recently visiting the Wales Rail Operating Centre in Cardiff? I hope it was an informative visit. I'm sure that it will have illustrated the complexities of running the railway and probably also underlined what I think were impressive efforts to recover services following recent extreme weather events.

It was back in 2021 that Network Rail undertook a £4 million project on the line, and it involved installing 8,000 tonnes of rock armour on the line between Hereford and Abergavenny. And what we saw recently shows that that work most definitely paid off. Now, there was, of course, disruption to passengers, but that rock armour played a pivotal role in protecting the railway. And I do believe that without that action, without that investment, the damage from storm Claudia would have been far, far worse, and the fallout to passengers would also have been more severe—also to freight services as well; this line is very important in terms of freight.

So, we do recognise that, whilst the investment in 2021 served a huge purpose in minimising disruption, ongoing investment is going to be required on the line in the future, and that's why we're working with Network Rail to make sure that funding is secured for ongoing maintenance. And proactive work as well to manage line-side vegetation is also vitally important. If we don't remove vegetation, it leads to train cancellations due to trees falling and so forth. Also, clearing culverts. It sounds obvious, but this ongoing programme of maintenance is vitally important to train performance. If the train lines are not fit for purpose, then Transport for Wales's trains will obviously be cancelled or late, so, we work very closely with Network Rail to ensure that maintenance takes place. But I will reinforce the message that more needs to be done to make sure this vitally important line is maintained to the full.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on transport connectivity in Taff Ely? OQ63454

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course. 'Llwybr Newydd' sets out our vision to improve transport across Wales. We'll deliver this vision in Taff Ely through the projects set out in our national transport delivery plan. We're also empowering local leaders to shape transport priorities that reflect the needs of their communities through regional transport plans.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer. And the Taff Ely area, of course, is one of the areas of the highest potential development for housing over the coming decade. I have raised with yourself and with Transport for Wales on a number of occasions the north-west corridor, the preservation of the former rail link, which is still there, in terms of the potential developments of the north-west corridor into the Taff Ely area. I was just wondering, Cabinet Secretary, if you can give an undertaking to look at the plans and the developments and the potential for that being incorporated into the longer term planning of rail and transport connectivity?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I think the point that Mick Antoniw raises about housing development is really, really important in the context of the project that he's promoting. The scheme is within Cardiff Council's recent transport White Paper as part of their vision to create a full Cardiff Crossrail—and, of course, funding for that first phase has been secured.

In parallel to this, we are devolving funds to the Cardiff capital region for transport investment, and, over the next five years, at today's figures, south-east Wales will have around £250 million to invest in transport. Now, I understand that the scheme would be in the region of £1 billion in funding, so it would require a UK Government commitment to both the proposal and its funding. But, as I say, Cardiff Crossrail has secured the first phase of funding and this scheme is within the council's recent transport White Paper as part of their vision to create a full Cardiff Crossrail.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

8. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with Cabinet colleagues to support Wrexham's bid for city of culture 2029? OQ63465

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I do think that Wrexham is in prime position to build on its runners-up position in the last UK City of Culture competition. We support and encourage Wrexham and other places in Wales to consider entering the 2029 competitions for UK city and town of culture.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. And I agree with you, Wrexham is in prime position for this UK City of Culture 2029 bid. This isn't just, though, about hosting events for a year; for me, it's about creating a lasting legacy for the city and the surrounding communities. We know that local businesses, schools and cultural organisations could all stand to benefit if the bid is successful, but there must be real, sustained support from Government to help make this happen. We know that investing in culture can drive tourism, create jobs, inspire young people to engage with the arts—all of which are vital for a thriving local economy. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, how you would envisage the Welsh Government helping to ensure that if Wrexham is successful—and we do hope it will be—that the city and surrounding communities will see long-term benefits that would extend beyond 2029?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Legacy is everything in this competition. What the judges wish to see is a clear demonstration not just to a year of events, but to a long-lasting piece of work that will promote pride in place and place building. Wrexham, as we know, has seen some astonishing developments of late, and we will soon see the football museum of Wales opened in Wrexham. Wrexham is home to, currently, Wales's most successful football team. Events like Focus Wales are generating more pride and passion within Wrexham; we've got Tŷ Pawb; there's work on the Wrexham Gateway; there's also the Wrexham Lager brewery project that's taking place; there's the expansion of Coleg Cambria, the university; it held the National Eisteddfod. I could go on and on. What we do know is that Wrexham is in the best possible position that it could be. But Sam Rowlands is right: it's about long-term future success, and I do believe that securing UK City of Culture status would facilitate a greater degree of pride and place building and excellence within Wrexham. The timeline is pretty tight. Expressions of interest are now open. So far, I'm only aware of Wrexham as a bidder, and if it is only Wrexham then I'm sure the Welsh Government will throw all of its weight and support behind Wrexham.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the timetable for implementing the recommendations of the review of the setting local speed limits in Wales guidance? OQ63482

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are updating the 'Setting Local Speed Limits in Wales' guidance to reflect current policy. The guidance won't be published during this Senedd term, so the 2009 guidance remains in force until then.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

You've been updating them for ages, Cabinet Secretary. I mean, it's over a year that you've been promising us updated guidance. And in the meantime, communities are still having to live with wholly inappropriate speed limits in many parts of my region. In Glasfryn, in Conwy, families have endured the 60 mph traffic thundering past their homes, with parents genuinely fearful every time their children step out of the house. In Lôn Fawr, in Ruthin, which you know well, you have the rugby pitch and the football pitch on both sides of the road, hundreds of children and families crossing the road there every week, and I've asked time and time again for that 60 mph limit to be reviewed, and we're still waiting. So, how much longer are these children and these families and these communities going to have to wait before action is taken? And will it really take an accident, or worse, for this Government to finally act on something that you've been promising us now for years?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

First of all, there is guidance in place that can be used to assess requests for speed limit changes. But the update is taking longer than planned. I agree it is taking longer than planned, and it's in no small part because the Welsh Government has gone through one of the biggest changes in terms of road safety in history, the change to the 20 mph default speed limit. Now, we are working collaboratively with local authorities, and they are actively engaged in the update process. But, as I say, until publication, that 2009 guidance remains in force and can be used to assess requests for speed limit changes.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

10. How is the Welsh Government working with local councils and other partners to ensure that the road network can deal with flooding and other adverse weather conditions? OQ63491

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Welsh Government collaborates closely with Natural Resources Wales and local authorities to enhance the resilience of the highway network against flooding. This partnership involves strategic planning, funding allocations and the execution of specific projects aimed at mitigating flood risks.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

I'm grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. I wanted to draw particular attention to a road in Swansea, and, just to correct an earlier answer you gave to Sam Rowlands, Swansea is the home to Wales's best football team; I just wanted to put that on the record for your consideration.

But you might be aware of Cwmbwrla roundabout, just off Carmarthen Road in Swansea, which is flooded frequently and is a key arterial route that travels through the city. This has flooded on a number of occasions in recent weeks, closing parts of the road—like I say, a key arterial route to go through one end of the city to the other. I understand that that is because there is a collapsed culvert located there, which will take time, Swansea Council says, to repair. So, what work are you doing with Swansea Council to ensure that key arterial routes, like the Cwmbwrla roundabout on Carmarthen Road, remain open so that passengers and drivers can travel across the city, and are able to do so on a regular basis?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I thank the Member for his question? Now that he's raised the matter, I will, of course, ask my officials to engage with Swansea city over the time frame for addressing this particular problem with the local road network.

In terms of what we're doing to support the city with their road maintenance and enhancement programme, of course, there is the local government borrowing initiative, which is leading to a huge, huge number of potholes and road defects being repaired and prevented. And, as I've outlined already today, on a number of occasions, we are devolving the decision making and the funding—it's very significant indeed—to the regions to be able to spend against their own priorities, and Swansea Council will be able to do that in conjunction with the other local authorities that form part of the regional corporate joint committee.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 2 will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Buffy Williams.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

1. How is the Welsh Government supporting families and individuals across Rhondda with the cost of living this winter? OQ63469

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Buffy Williams. We continue to support families and children across Wales with the cost of living this winter. This includes our new baby bundles scheme, which will help to reduce the financial pressure families face in some of the most deprived areas. I am delighted to hear the Chancellor confirm that the two-child limit will be abolished and will bring relief to over 20,000 families in Wales, including in Rhondda Cynon Taf. And, of course, this is something the Welsh Government called for.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Thank you. As the weather gets colder, we all know many families and older people will hold off putting the heating on for as long as they can. We know loneliness creeps in and, for some, a quick chat with the postman might be the only conversation they have all day. We know that too many children will go home, after their free school meal, to a house with no hot dinner waiting.

Thanks to Welsh Government support, charities and community groups are opening warm hubs across Rhondda, offering a warm space, a hot drink, and sometimes a hot meal. I want to place on record my thanks to the staff and volunteers supporting residents, from the top of Maerdy down to Porth, and from Blaenrhondda to Trehafod. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree it's so important that residents make use of these hubs to save money on their energy bills and to see a friendly face for a few hours?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for that supplementary because it's been made quite clear to us, and on my visits, and indeed with local authorities across Wales, that our funding for safe and warm hubs has provided warm and safe spaces in the community that can provide company and support for people. It's part of an ongoing package of support, including access to information about our discretionary assistance fund and the fuel vouchers scheme, and, in total, we've invested over £4 million in the warm hubs initiative. We know that over 600 warm hubs are being supported by funding across Wales. I think, also, the warm hubs are enabling people to come together to access fresh food and meals together, as well as, as I've said, being able to access information about how they can, together, keep warm this winter and get all their entitlements.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

2. What recent discussions has the Welsh Government had with the Ministry of Justice regarding the expansion of HMP Parc? OQ63485

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. I've discussed the expansion of His Majesty's Prison Parc with UK Government justice Ministers, and there is ongoing engagement between our officials to examine the implications across devolved areas.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. HMP Parc, in my region, has been beset by problems. Actually 'problems' is too mild a term to use. In the last year, 17 inmates have died—more than at any other UK prison—and the majority of the deaths have been tied to illegal drugs. An unannounced inspection of the prison in January found drugs were widely available, with deliveries to cell windows via drones. Now, the site is to be expanded to house an additional 345 prisoners.

Cabinet Secretary, what steps are the Ministry of Justice taking to stop the use of drones, which not only deliver drugs into the prison, but also put local residents at risk? And have the Ministry of Justice indicated that steps are being taken to combat addiction within the prison population?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that very important supplementary. Of course, justice is not yet devolved to Wales, and prisoner and offender management are the responsibility of the UK Government. But I do meet regularly with Lord Timpson, the Minister of State for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending, and Ian Barrow, the chief executive of His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales. In fact, we visited Parc prison together with the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, who obviously is very engaged because of her responsibility for substance misuse. In April, the HM Inspectorate of Prisons report on Parc noted that new leadership has brought significant changes and said it had a comprehensive improvement plan, including all of the inspector's recommendations. We remain engaged with HMPPS to monitor progress.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I have to say, I am completely shocked by much of the reporting on the expansion of Parc. We've seen a number of outlets talk about how opposition is based on increased traffic locally because of visitations and stuff like that. I think actually there are far more serious concerns to have around the expansion of Parc that go beyond simply more traffic in the local area. I don't need to tell Members in this Chamber about the poor, incredibly disgusting track record of Parc. Altaf has already pointed to it in his question.

Now, just imagine for a moment being a family member whose loved one has gone into Parc, and then you're stood there wondering as to whether or not your loved one is going to get out of that facility altogether. Now, I'm not trying to be an alarmist here, but this point cannot go unsaid. So, Cabinet Secretary, given everything we now know about the serious and persistent failures in prison safety and welfare at Parc, can you tell us what concrete actions will be taken and what assurances, if any, the Welsh Government has received that an expansion won't simply just magnify those risks? I would actually say that this needs to be stopped in its tracks now, not on the basis of increased traffic, but on the poor track record of Parc, on the fact that we have a prison system in Bridgend that has basically created a culture where inmates have committed suicide, self-harm and abused drugs. That is the basis that this should be stopped on. It should be taken out of the hands of G4S altogether and back into the hands of the state.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Luke, for also adding that really important wider dimension, because it is a prison in the community. We do work very closely with HMPPS on those areas where we have responsibility. Obviously, we've mentioned the important responsibility in terms of health, substance misuse, but also housing and social care. We work to help mitigate the risk of future harm to staff and prisoners. Also, these questions are really important for me to take back to my discussions, as we look at the implications of this latest announcement for communities in Wales, recognising, of course, that this is an issue in terms of prison capacity—a long-standing issue in terms of prison capacity—which was inherited from the former Conservative Government, which did leave the justice and prison system in a very difficult place.

But I would say that what has been helpful, just in terms of the report from HMIP in April of this year, is that there is some positive practice: a collaboration with the University of Bath to provide innovative drug detection technology; and Parc Tank, an initiative for prisoners due to be released with business ideas for investment. And there is a sign of improvement under the new leadership. The new director has implemented a plan to tackle basic failings and prevent further deaths. But your points, I think, will help form the agenda for my next meeting in terms of Parc Prison. So, thank you for raising this.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Last night, I sponsored an event here in the Senedd about miscarriages of justice, which included John Actie and Michael O'Brien, two victims, with Mike spending over 11 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. We have known, Trefnydd, since 2019 that Wales has the highest incarceration rate per head in western Europe. Now, figures published in the prison fact file of Dr Rob Jones from this month show that that remains the case. Of course, I accept that justice is reserved, but many of the levers to stop people committing crimes are devolved to this place. With Berwyn, we already have the largest prison in the UK. With this expansion, it will make Parc one of the largest prisons in the UK. And as Altaf and Luke have eloquently said, we are well aware of the terrible record of Parc prison. Why does Wales still top that terrible league, Trefnydd? And do you agree with me that expanding Parc prison certainly isn't the answer? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Rhys ab Owen. I'm meeting Dr Robert Jones shortly to discuss his fact file. And also, I have sent the fact file to Lord Timpson, as I did last year for Robert Jones's fact file. I think it is important that we recognise that we need this justice data, and it needs to be clearly disaggregated, which was one of the most important calls from the Thomas commission. We need accessible information so that we can see how the justice system is working in Wales, and so that people can see how the justice system is working where they live. We must then progress our policy development on the devolution of justice in Wales, as we address the here-and-now operational issues and concerns that have been raised about Parc prison.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and first the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, today is National Energy Action's Fuel Poverty Awareness Day. It comes as six in 10 adults in Wales have indicated that they are worried about energy costs this winter, increasing to 73 per cent for parents with children under 16. Fittingly, this year's awareness day is focused on children living in poverty, living in cold, damp homes and in fuel poverty. Evidence shows that living in a cold home can affect academic attainment and people are more likely to develop lifelong respiratory issues. Cabinet Secretary, will you commit today to implement measures to protect Welsh children from the impact of fuel poverty?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question, Altaf Hussain. I'm aware—and of course this was raised yesterday—of the National Energy Action event today. In terms of the ways in which we can support children and families in poverty, you’ll know that we have a clear commitment to this in terms of our fuel poverty strategy. I'm sure that you do, and I hope very much that you will, welcome the fact that the Chancellor has confirmed in the budget statement that the two-child limit will be removed. Welsh Government have consistently urged the UK Government to consider its removal, and we're pleased that that's now being listened to. It will bring relief to over 20,000 families in Wales. And that's crucial in terms of all of the burdens and costs, in terms of the cost of living, on families, and particularly supporting children. In fact, the removal of the two-child limit will reduce child poverty in Wales by 3 to 4 per cent, and this is something that has been called for, certainly in terms of the Welsh Government and all of those organisations that are supporting children. But it is clear also that we can support families through the support that we give through Nest, the Warm Homes scheme, because it is, as you say, about how we can make sure that that investment means that we can bring homes up in terms of energy efficiency, and also the retrofit programme as well.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, the support you have so far committed to tackling fuel poverty is woefully inadequate. The Welsh Government's Warm Homes scheme, which stakeholders deem woefully inadequate, has seen a real-terms cut in the draft budget. The biggest help you can give to Welsh children is to state that you will use all the consequentials from the UK Government's Warm Homes plan towards helping to cut bills, tackle fuel poverty and making homes greener in Wales. Will you mark Fuel Poverty Awareness Day by making these commitments?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Again, I haven't heard from you, Altaf Hussain, that you welcome the most major announcement today in terms of the scrapping of the two-child benefit cap, which will bring 20,000 families in Wales out of poverty. Of course, that will mean that it will support them in terms of the costs that they have in terms of energy. We will look carefully—it's just coming through, of course—at the Chancellor's statement in terms of opportunities for us to support families and households. But also, I think it's important to look at this intergenerationally as well in terms of the fact that we've got now the warm home discount and the winter fuel payment as well, being paid by the UK Government. But it is important that we recognise what we have been doing in Wales in terms of tackling fuel poverty. Many families have benefited from our Fuel Bank Foundation grant aid, which of course helps people on prepayment meters and also helps people off-grid. This is direct access to support for families, which, of course, will support children as well.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Although National Energy Action have decided to focus upon the impact of fuel poverty on children for this year's awareness day, the other group hugely impacted are the over-65s. Yesterday, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales published her latest report on older people and poverty in Wales. The commissioner lays bare the scale and impact of poverty amongst older people, highlighting that one in five older people in Wales has had to go without heating, while a quarter skipped meals or ate less. According to the commissioner, this contributes to a significantly higher mortality rate among older people, as well as huge avoidable costs to the NHS, estimated to be over £40 million a year. This is way more than the Welsh Government spends on tackling fuel poverty across all age groups. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with the older people's commissioner, and will you adopt her recommendations? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I very much welcome the older people's commissioner's report as well. I met with the older people's commissioner very recently, and, indeed, with older people as well, looking at the all-important issues of digital inclusion for older people. These are challenging times for many older people in Wales, and we do everything that we can to support older people. I've already mentioned the investment that we are continuing to make into our safe and warm hubs this winter, which are particularly important for older people, enabling them to get out and to meet other people and break down isolation. Also, we've put, as I said, over £7 million of funding into the Fuel Bank Foundation, with that fuel voucher and heat fund scheme in Wales.

I think it is important that we see again the investment in Warm Homes Nest of £30 million a year. It's going to help low-income households, and people can access free expert energy advice by ringing the Nest helpline. It is important that we work closely as well with the UK Government, to make sure that everyone takes up the entitlements that they should, and that includes pension credit. That's something that I've been working with the older people's commissioner on. This is something where we would guide people to our 'Claim what's yours' webpages, so that they can see eligibility for pension credit. But also, the UK Government will be spending over £30 billion more over this Parliament as well. Those are our efforts to support people, particularly older people, in terms of that commissioner's report.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Plaid Cymru has long campaigned for the abolition of the two-child limit, and we welcome today's announcement that the UK Government will finally scrap it—although in our view, this decision is shamefully overdue. Welsh Labour once supported that position, yet after the general election, there was initially a deafening silence. Here in the Senedd, Labour Members even voted against Plaid Cymru amendments calling for its removal. Those Labour backbench MPs who are guided more by principle than by polling and rebelled against the continuation of Tory welfare policies were punished by Keir Starmer. When this Welsh Government scrapped child poverty targets in 2016, one reason given was the impact of the two-child limit. That excuse no longer stands. Cabinet Secretary, with the limit gone, will you now commit to reinstating clear child poverty targets to ensure Wales tackles child poverty in the most effective way possible?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Sioned Williams, for that question. I can only say again that it is a day when we must celebrate the influence of not only the Welsh Labour Government but also this side of the Senedd, I believe, in calling for the abolition of the two-child limit. We've called for it as a Government, and consistently urged the previous Conservative UK Government to remove the two-child limit. It is important to say for the record that over 20,000 families in Wales who have been denied financial support from the UK benefits system can now have that access to that finance that will help their day-to-day living costs. A key objective of our child poverty strategy is to maximise incomes. That's the first objective that we have. This will assist with this as well, reducing child poverty by between 3 per cent and 4 per cent.

It is important that we look at this in terms of not just the influence that we've had on this, but in terms of the development and the progress of our child poverty strategy, which does have very ambitious objectives and priorities and a very clear monitoring framework in terms of how we monitor how the impact of our strategy is making a difference. This is something where I look forward to coming to the Senedd very shortly with my update for scrutiny and for consideration and debate in terms of the impacts of our powers, our responsibilities and levers, in terms of tackling child poverty, but also recognising the way in which social security has such an impact on poverty and has made a difference.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

We'll wait to see if that update includes the introduction of targets. As you say, this will have a welcome impact, a reduction of 3 per cent to 4 per cent on child poverty levels in Wales, but we know there's a long way to go when we know that we are looking at nearly 30 per cent of children in Wales in poverty. Having those targets would drive that progress. So many of those who campaigned for the scrapping of the two-child limit here in Wales, anti-poverty campaigners, have also said that they really think that that child poverty strategy of the Welsh Government needs targets.

While the scrapping of the two-child limit has been welcomed, there is still concern amongst anti-poverty campaigners about the apparent lack of change to the benefit cap, another Tory policy that remains in place. The cap creates a real risk that some families, who in theory would gain from the abolition of the two-child limit, could lose additional money due to the benefit cap. Cabinet Secretary, in your discussions with the UK Government around child poverty strategies across the UK—I know you're a part of those discussions—will you be stating that they also need to review the overall benefit cap? What assessment have you made of how this will continue to impact levels of child poverty in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. I met only last week the End Child Poverty reference group in Wales, which I'm sure you will know, and have engaged with all those organisations on the front line of ending child poverty, which must be an absolute priority for all Governments at all levels—UK Government, particularly in relation to tax and benefits, and we've seen that welcome news today, but also using all our levers that we have to our fullest extent, and working with local government on our Welsh benefits charter as well.

Just to comment again on your question about targets, our current targets for tackling poverty and improving outcomes, of course, are set out in our programme for government and form part of our national milestones, and we do report annually on our progress. I will be, of course, reporting on this with my child poverty progress report. I think one of the important parts of that, when I publish it, will be a report that we've done on lived experience to see what really makes a difference—what works in terms of our responsibilities, what impacts we are making that are positive, and where we need to do more.

But I do want to just, if you bear with me, say that there was one other really important announcement today, which I'm sure that you will welcome, namely that the Chancellor is removing the dehumanising and cruel rape clause from the two-child benefit cap arrangements.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I certainly welcome that. On the need for specific child poverty targets, of course, those arguments have been well rehearsed, but we will wait to see what your statement brings to us shortly.

As we've heard, it's Fuel Poverty Awareness Day and 25 per cent of Welsh households are in fuel poverty. The Equality and Social Justice Committee has concluded in more than one report that the Welsh Government's level of investment in the Warm Homes programme is nowhere near the level required. When we asked you about commitments in the draft budget, you said:

'Let's just also think about the Warm Homes programme in terms of the fact that it's not the only grant funding available for households....the GB-wide schemes, for example ECO Flex, are available to every local authority in Wales.'

While you invest £30 million in the Warm Homes programme, Welsh local authorities have leveraged between £70 million and £100 million through the ECO scheme. What impact will the fact that the Chancellor has now scrapped the ECO scheme have on the Welsh Government's efforts to ensure the houses of people in fuel poverty in Wales are warmer and more efficient?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I welcome that question. Of course, the news of that change is just coming through. We will look at this very carefully and be able to respond, and I'm sure also engaging with our local authorities as well. It is important that we put on the record today as well that up until the end of March 2024, we've invested more than £479 million to improve home energy efficiency through the Warm Homes programme, and over 82,000 households have benefited from measures in their homes.

I've also mentioned the other programmes that we have, like the partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation—the £7.1 million funding. This is a Wales scheme that we have in partnership, and it has helped a lot of eligible households that prepay for their fuel and are at risk of disconnection. But we will look at the impact, of course, of that change that's just been announced in the budget today.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

3. How is the Welsh Government supporting disabled people with the cost of living? OQ63484

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. We know that some people are more likely to be living in poverty, including disabled people, and we are fully committed to providing the support they need. Since 2022, we've invested over £7 billion in programmes that alleviate financial pressures, maximise income and help keep more money in people’s pockets.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. The Bevan Foundation's latest 'A snapshot of poverty' report highlights that high levels of hardship continue to be present among a significant proportion of the Welsh population. The report makes clear that some groups are experiencing hardship at much higher rates than others, including disabled people and those with a long-term health condition. Half of people living in poverty in Wales live in a household where there is someone with a disability. Almost a quarter of disabled people, or those who have a health condition that limits them a lot, report that they sometimes, often or always struggle to afford the basics.

We know that affording heating is one of the main areas of pressure, and the recently announced increase in the energy price cap from January means that, on average, a dual-fuel direct debit energy bill will increase to £1,758 per year—the rates, of course, are higher still in Wales, and north Wales is the most expensive region across Britain. Given that we know disabled people are far more likely to be in poverty, they will also spend more on their energy bills. This is disappointing news for many. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support disabled people living in Wales, especially with energy costs? And what measures announced in today's budget will support disabled people?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. Indeed, the Bevan Foundation evidence and reports are always so valuable in providing us with the guidance and the direct lived experience of what works, what is most important, what can, particularly in terms of your question, help disabled people. I also just saw recently one of their reports showing, in terms of what the Welsh Government can do with its powers, strong support for the discretionary assistance fund and the single advice fund, and also our council tax reduction scheme. Our Welsh benefits charter is crucial, and it is important to remember that 260,000 low-income households receive support from the council tax reduction scheme, and almost 214,000 pay no council tax at all. But it's crucial that we look at the child poverty strategy and disability as well—this has been mentioned already in terms of tackling fuel poverty—and learn from them how we can support disabled people and families in terms of tackling child poverty.

But I hope that you will recognise that this is something where, again, welfare is not devolved to Wales, but we can make a difference by ensuring that people maximise their incomes through the 'Claim what's yours' benefit take-up campaign. I look forward next week to making a statement on international day for the rights of disabled people, where we can look at the ways forward in terms of our disabled people's rights plan.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government regarding the impact of public toilet closures in north Wales on disabled and older people? OQ63496

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth Davies. Local authorities are legally required to have a local toilets strategy. The Welsh Government has provided comprehensive statutory guidance to support this requirement. Local authorities are wholly responsible for decisions on whether they provide public conveniences and how they are managed.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The planned closure of public toilets in Denbigh and Dyserth in my constituency, following a Denbighshire County Council cabinet decision last week, raises serious concerns about the impact on some of the most vulnerable people in our communities. Denbighshire County Council itself acknowledges that older people and people with disabilities rely disproportionately on these facilities, and many respondents to their recent public consultation were over-65s or had a long-term condition. Older people may be less willing to leave home in confidence if they can't rely on a safe, clean and accessible public toilet. As Age Cymru warns, poor provision can reduce their ability to remain active, restricting how often and for how long they are able to leave their homes.

Flintshire County Council is also threatening the closure of many more public toilets in the neighbouring county, mainly in Talacre, Mold and Holywell. Budgets are tight, but the cuts are affecting the most basic services, affecting the oldest and the most vulnerable. The Welsh Government can change this by altering the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, which requires councils to publish a local toilet strategy, and creating a clause that mandates a minimum number of toilets based on population or demographics. So, does the Cabinet Secretary share my concerns that the loss of public toilets threatens the inclusion and well-being of our most vulnerable, and will she commit to reviewing the Public Health (Wales) Act with a view to including a clause that makes their provision a legal requirement?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for recognising that local authorities are legally required to have a local toilet strategy, and we've produced strong guidance to local authorities on delivering on that. As far as Denbighshire council is concerned, I understand the Welsh Government awarded £44,000 under the Brilliant Basics scheme to the council to refurbish toilets in Corwen, including a fully accessible dementia-friendly toilet pod. Also, I understand that, under the current round of funding, Denbighshire council's application to install a cashless payment system in their toilets wasn't successful, but that project's been placed on a reserve list, should further funding become available.

And also, I think Denbighshire council has made some progress and taken new opportunities by being awarded £300,000 to establish a number of overnight stay areas for motorhomes, which I'm sure you'll be familiar will be in your county, including facilities to empty waste water and chemical waste.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch. I agree with the points the Member has raised. The importance of public toilets and the need for them is, actually, a basic human right. But the costs have risen to more than just spending a penny these days, and I know that councils are facing very difficult decisions following 14 years of Tory/Conservative austerity. I believe that the Conservatives still want to cut public service funding, going forward, in their budget plans. They also oppose every single method of raising money for them, because we do actually need revenue funding. I know you mentioned capital pots, but we need revenue funding. So, they opposed the tourism levy as well, which would raise money for running public toilets. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that one of the credible ways to improve access to these essential facilities via council funding is to continue reversing 14 years of austerity and to properly fund our local authorities and our public services? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Carolyn Thomas. I think it's important to recognise other responsibilities, as well as the Public Health (Wales) Act, which actually brought in the duty in terms of local authorities' public toilet strategy, as the Welsh Government has worked with the UK Government to ensure that stand-alone public toilets in Wales now receive 100 per cent relief from business rates. But I can't agree with you more—we are seeking, and we see in the Chancellor's statement today that we are now reversing 14 years of austerity to properly fund our local authorities. Let's just for a moment recognise that the draft budget for next year provides more than £27 billion for public services and authorities—[Interruption.]

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary—

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

—and that's the beginning, of course, of the budget process, not the end, and a lot will change between now and January, when the final budget is published.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I would be grateful if Members allowed the responses to be made in silence, and similarly, when other Members ask questions, allowed the Members to ask their questions as well. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The lack of public toilets has significant implications for people's health and, therefore, for the NHS. In the absence of public toilets, people are having to delay or hold in urine for longer than is good for them. This is especially dangerous for older people, people with disabilities, women, carers and those with certain medical conditions, with increased risk of urinary tract infections, pelvic floor dysfunction, and, in severe or chronic cases, back pressure effects on kidneys. And there is an equality implication, as women are more likely to suffer than men. In Fairbourne, the community-run Fairbourne Amenities Trust have ensured that the public toilets there can remain open. The Llandrillo community has done the same, as well as the aforementioned Corwen Town Council project. Will the Cabinet Secretary look at these examples of best practice in order to allow other communities to receive the necessary support to take over and run public toilets as community enterprises? Should she wish, there's an invitation for her to join me to see the Fairbourne Amenities Trust as well.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. I would very much like to join you on a visit to the trust. Clearly, local authorities are taking the initiative. I've already given some examples from Denbighshire council and Flintshire as well. Just to say finally, of course, there are other sources of funding. The Transforming Towns regeneration programme toilet provision is a dedicated support for town centres, and very much identified within placemaking plans.

Thank you for focusing on the equalities issue, because this also draws attention to changing places for disabled people, and the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 includes changing places within the definition of 'toilet' in relation to local toilet strategies. That's something where local authorities have got to make that adaptation, particularly to support disabled people.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to nurture voluntary sector activities in the most deprived parts of Wales? OQ63472

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone. The Welsh Government is investing in grass-roots voluntary organisations through our £8.6 million third sector support Wales infrastructure funding. This supports organisations and initiatives involving volunteering, funding and good governance, which in turn helps strengthen community resilience and support deprived areas across Wales.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. I recently sat on a panel to choose Cardiff Third Sector Council's volunteer of the year award. I'm sure that all the nominees were making a valuable contribution to their communities, but I was surprised to see so few applicants from Cardiff's southern arc of deprivation, in particular, not a single nomination from any organisation in Newtown, which is where we were convening. I appreciate that the Welsh Government provides considerable sums of money to the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and to other organisations, big and small. However, reflecting on the inverse care law, based on the pioneering work of Julian Tudor Hart, what attention does the Welsh Government pay to nurturing voluntary sector capacity building where it's most needed in our most deprived communities, where we know that there are citizens struggling in deep poverty and they need that helping hand to allow them to thrive?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that important reflection on where and how we are supporting volunteers, particularly perhaps in our most disadvantaged communities. You know that we have published a new approach to volunteering alongside our code of practice for funding the third sector, which is important for those grass-roots and community organisations that are engaging with volunteers across Wales. And the new approach to volunteering actually does particularly ensure that we're engaged with all citizens across Wales.

I just would say that I've seen such fantastic volunteering coming through many of our community policies, which includes our community facilities grant. I would say, in Cardiff, I was very pleased to fund five projects: the Green Squirrel, which I think is a really excellent project; Oasis Cardiff, particularly reaching out with volunteers to our black, Asian and minority ethnic citizens; the Trinity Centre, again, vulnerable individuals; Media Academy Cymru with Cardiff primary schools. These are all, actually, reaching out to some of the more disadvantaged citizens in our community, also in Riverside, and Splott Community Volunteers—there are many examples.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Some of these most deprived areas aren't just in cities or in our towns, they're in our rural areas as well. As a former young farmer myself and a member of Pembrokeshire Young Farmers Club and, indeed, former chairman of Pembrokeshire YFC, I've seen the role of volunteers within the YFC movement and the support that they give to membership-led organisations. Cabinet Secretary, would you be able to confirm that the Welsh Government will continue to support Wales YFC financially, given the role that they play in our rural communities, ensuing that volunteers are there, available to support young people between the ages of 10 and 28 getting an education outside of school and socialising in those deprived areas in our rural communities?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that. The young farmers clubs play a vital role and, more importantly, they need to be supported, and indeed they have been by the Welsh Government consistently. In fact, the new approach to volunteering requires that kind of active promotion to ensure that Wales is the volunteering society that we want it to be, and, of course, that includes our rural areas, but it includes the younger generation, diversity and inclusion, and strong leadership. We have substantially funded the voluntary sector through the Volunteering Wales main grants.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

6. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of a cashless society on financial inclusion? OQ63490

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Peter Fox. Financial services is a reserved matter. However, the Welsh Government works closely with the UK Government and key organisations to champion the importance of access to cash and inclusive banking services in Welsh communities.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Whilst we know that digital banking is very useful, many people, especially the most vulnerable members of our society, still rely on cash to manage their finances. Sadly, the combination of businesses increasingly going cashless and many rural communities struggling to access bank branches, with an increasing number of bank closures, is resulting in too many people feeling financially excluded. Whilst this may not be devolved, we have a responsibility for those people. In my own constituency, eight banks have closed, and I shockingly found out there have been 1,649 branch closures across Wales since 2022. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what progress has the Welsh Government made in promoting greater community-based banking, such as the hubs, for instance, to ensure that cash continues to be a valid method of payment in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that important question. It very much follows up the Petitions Committee debate and report on a cashless society, which we did respond to. I made the point that cash remains a vital part of our economy, and the Welsh Government does not accept the inevitability of a cashless society. We had that powerful evidence from Mencap Cymru, and I met with them. It is reserved. It's not devolved in terms of responsibilities, but I know you will recognise that, in January 2025, Emma Reynolds, the then economic Secretary to the Treasury, confirmed that shops and service firms would not be compelled to accept cash. So, again, we can revisit our responses to the recommendations from that Petitions Committee and show that we are working, as far as we can, with the UK Government and with the banks. We have a Banking in Welsh Communities event in March next year, and we will put access to cash on the agenda.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce incidents of domestic violence? OQ63466

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. The Welsh Government is supporting partners to tackle the epidemic of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Through our national strategy, we fund services that support and protect victims, and early intervention and perpetrator programmes to stop domestic abuse.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thanks for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I found a shocking statistic recently, which is that, on average, two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and in Wales. Ending domestic abuse should be a top priority for any Government. Important steps have been taken across the border, including Clare's law, which allows individuals to ask the police if their current or ex-partner has a history of domestic abuse, but there is certainly more that we can all do.

Now, I've been following really closely an important piece of work taken forward by my Scottish Conservative colleague Pam Gosal MSP. She's in the process of bringing forward her Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill. If passed, this Bill would introduce a register for domestic abusers, meaning offenders would have to keep the police informed of their address and passport details. It would also include mandatory assessments for rehabilitation, data collection duties and domestic abuse education in schools. Cabinet Secretary, if you haven't already, will you please take a look at Pam Gosal's Bill and see if there are any measures that can certainly be introduced here in Wales? Thank you very much.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Natasha Asghar. I certainly will be looking at that Bill to see how it aligns with our Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, which of course has its tenth anniversary, and look to see if there are ways in which there is anything that we can learn from that. I hope also that you will be sharing with your colleague in Scotland the work that we're doing, and perhaps share our annual report on progress made against the six objectives of our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, question 8, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effectiveness of current schemes designed to support households struggling with fuel poverty? OQ63470

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. We continually review our interventions to better support households in need. For example, we work with the Fuel Bank Foundation to regularly review their support offering. On Nest, we introduced a crisis route, following stakeholder feedback, and have commissioned an external evaluation to inform any further refinements to the scheme.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I'm particularly concerned about the fact that the current fuel poverty schemes don't adequately address the unique challenges faced by rural and off-grid households. Your own policy statement for the new Warm Homes programme explicitly acknowledges that off-grid and rural homes must be better targeted with the scheme, but we know that the Equality and Social Justice Committee has previously highlighted in the Senedd the lack of local contractors and skilled workforce in rural areas, saying that that limits the accessibility and reach of energy efficiency measures for off-grid properties.

Now, as we've heard already today, 25 per cent of all Welsh households are now in fuel poverty, and we know that many of those worst affected are those living in those isolated and off-grid homes. A recent report warns that, at the current pace, it could take until the year 2160 to retrofit all fuel-poor homes, which is of course wholly unacceptable. So, given these stark warnings, what specific measurable steps will you take to prioritise off-grid housing in the Warm Homes programme, making sure that contractors and grant providers extend their reach into rural Wales? Will you outline what you will do to accelerate delivery so that these communities aren’t left waiting decades for what they deserve?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much. Warm Homes Nest is very aware of the needs of home owners in rural areas, particularly living in off-grid areas, because rural households are more likely to be in fuel poverty. Often, that’s the case. The Warm Homes Nest programme is designed to have a positive impact on the lives of rural people and also to deliver efficiency upgrades as well. I have commented already on the Fuel Bank Foundation and about the access to grants for rural off-grid homes, but also I would like to say that the discretionary assistance fund, in the winter months of November 2024 to February 2025, provided £92,355 for off-grid oil and gas applications. This again is something where I would hope that colleagues, particularly in rural Wales, can raise awareness both of the Fuel Bank Foundation and the discretionary assistance fund, because it is often the payment that they need to be able to pay their bills, and that access to support from DAF and Fuel Bank Foundation is there.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 today is questions to the Senedd Commission, and question 1 will be answered by the Llywydd. Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

1. How is the Commission working with journalists to ensure the reporting of Senedd business is accurate? OQ63487

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Senedd Commission news team works with journalists in Wales and beyond on a daily basis to ensure accurate reporting of Senedd business. This is achieved in a number of different ways, including media releases to promote and explain committee reports, weekly briefing notes on upcoming Senedd business and technical briefings ahead of high-profile issues. The team also closely monitors news coverage of all issues relating to the Senedd, using media monitoring software, and will seek to clarify inaccuracies with journalists when they do arise.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. The recent 'Our BBC, Our Future' questionnaire showed that only 43 per cent of people believe that the BBC is independent of the Government of the day, dropping to 40 per cent amongst respondents in Wales. Concerns of impartiality and bias were the top issues for those aged 18 to 54, but this is not a new issue. A 2023 YouGov poll found that just 44 per cent considered the BBC either to be 'trustworthy' or 'very trustworthy'. I am sure you have been following the reports we have all seen by the BBC's Panorama and Newsnight programmes about how the corporation deliberately doctored a speech made by the US President to deliberately mislead the British public about his role in the Capitol riots.

I think this should deeply concern all of us. We live in an age where many struggle to discern truth from opinion, and even truth from lies. Our national broadcaster should be a beacon of impartiality and reliability. Is the Commission prepared to undertake an independent review, in the same way as it did with GB News, to assess the output of the BBC in relation to its reporting of Welsh parliamentary business, and what steps will it take if any reporting has been found to be misleading? Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I think that, first of all, I need to draw Members' attention to my declaration of interest on my register of interest. The BBC is very much the subject of news coverage and public discussion at this point. I would suggest that, to undertake the vast scope of work that the Member has just outlined, the Commission would require a very big budget increase. I remember that the Member probably did not vote for the budget we already have, let alone a budget increase of the magnitude that a Commission, whether it is this one or the next one, would require to undertake the work that the Member has outlined. I would also suggest, when there are questions around policy and broadcasting policy, that those questions are most properly addressed to Government Ministers and not to me.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Question 2 and 3 will be answered by Joyce Watson. Question 2, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

2. What provision is the Commission making for BSL interpreters for Senedd proceedings in the seventh Senedd? OQ63461

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for your question, Jenny. British Sign Language interpretation is made available at the moment for First Minister’s questions each Tuesday. Since the summer, a number of committee scrutiny sessions of the Member's Bill on BSL have also carried live interpretation. This has provided us with valuable insight about the implications of extending the service in the seventh Senedd.

The service is provided to the Senedd through the broadcasting services contract at a fixed annual cost. The service is also available upon request for other items of business in Plenary or committee meetings, with each request subject to an additional charge. The current annual cost of providing BSL interpretation for First Minister’s questions is approximately £19,000.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you, Joyce Watson. I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but we know that there are only 54 BSL interpreters in Wales. There was a fantastic initiative run from 2006 to 2008, I think initiated by the current Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. That generated 30 extra BSL interpreters. The reason I am pressing this point is because this is not something we are going to be able to magic up overnight. Therefore, if, as a Senedd, we are going to collectively pass this BSL Bill—we'll have to wait and see on that—but if we are, we then are raising expectations that we will be able to provide more interpretation, so more people can share what is going on in their Senedd. The problem is, if we don't create more interpreters, we are going to be competing with health services, education services and other essential emergency interpretation that people need to get whatever they are entitled to. I'm trying to prompt the Commission to think ahead, rather than, 'Oops, we have a problem.'

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that, and I don't think we're just thinking, 'Oops, we have a problem.' We recognise the scale. You've asked me previously on this and I've answered previously as well. You're right to say there are limited numbers. Those numbers reduce even further if you're talking about bilingual interpretation that will be required as well. The current annual cost, as I said, is £19,000. The training of interpreters will take a long time. We are committed to try and do some of that here, but ultimately it's a budgetary question as well as a training question. The Llywydd has already said we have significant budget pressures. We know that that budget pressure wasn't supported by the Conservatives here, yet this Bill has been brought through by one of their own, which is somewhat disappointing.

You can be assured, Jenny, that we are live to this. The time frame is critical, as you have recognised, as I'm sure the Member who is bringing this Bill forward is also aware of. But there are many other things, apart from just training people. It's about the space that we also have for those individuals to work in at the moment. We have a whole project going forward that's looking at the detail of the upgrades to the studio where the interpreters will be filmed. They will need additional equipment and perhaps some structural changes as well. So, it isn't simply just about training the individuals, it's about giving them the capacity to carry out their work. Also, you need to make sure that there is a seamless swap-over of interpreters to allow that in simultaneous meetings. So, we are in the process of compiling those costs, and there will be a proposal submitted for evaluation and prioritisation in the new financial year.

So, it is, as I said the last time I answered a question like this, demanding work. So, there's only so long that an interpreter can work, and, of course, that will require more than one interpreter to be available for each single session. But those costs will come in the new financial year, and also, incorporated within that, will be the structural changes that will be needed for those people to work under as well. But I do thank you for your question, and you're absolutely right to keep this alive.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

3. What consideration does the Commission give to the accessibility of documents in supporting Senedd business? OQ63464

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Again, I thank you for that question. The Commission is committed to ensuring all documents supporting Senedd business are accessible to Members, staff and the public. Accessibility standards are embedded in committee outputs, with reports produced using accessible templates and guidance. Guidance is provided to staff on accessible document production, and third parties are encouraged to submit accessible content. The Commission provides online guides to clarify how witnesses and contributors can request accessible formats or adjustments, ensuring full participation in Senedd proceedings. The next step is to improve accessibility, including reviewing and updating guidance, refreshing staff training, and implementing feedback mechanisms that will ensure all documents consistently meet the accessibility standard.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. I've received concerns from the learning disabled community that more needs to be done by the Commission to accommodate and promote the need for easy-read documents. As well as the timescales for producing and presenting reports and minutes, and taking account of the time it does so, for example, by the Table Office, it's also important that people with a learning disability should have access to good-quality easy-read versions of documents from the Commission. Some quality issues with the easy-read versions that have been produced for the Welsh Youth Parliament, for example, have been brought to my attention, especially the Welsh easy-read. The photosymbols that contain text are not translated, so appear with English text in the Welsh versions. This is presumably because the photosymbols tool does not offer Welsh versions. However, photosymbols can be edited to produce Welsh versions. So, will the Commission consult with learning disability groups on this matter, so that people with a learning disability can have consistent access to good-quality accessible information?

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Absolutely, and I'm really disappointed to hear what you've just said. As you say, things can be formatted, they can be changed. I'm sure somehow—or I would like to think somehow—it's an oversight on that. It's been raised here today, quite rightly, it's on public record, to make sure that action is taken in the way that you have just asked, and I absolutely support that.

The Commission has recently updated accessibility statements for the website, and it's updating those relating to systems used for other public-facing sites. We are striving for the web content accessibility guidelines AA compliance—that's the accessibility benchmark for public sector bodies. I would hope that what you've raised today falls within those guidelines and that we make sure, absolutely, that we don't have what seems to be a dual system and an unfairness that has crept into what were probably very good intentions, but the outcomes are not good enough. So, I will keep you updated. I thank you for bringing it to our attention, and I'm sure everybody else will be pleased it's been brought to our attention, because it wouldn't have been an intentional outcome. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Llywydd and Joyce Watson.

4. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is the topical questions. There is just one question today, and that will be from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement regarding the gaps in the latest NHS Performance and Activity data release? TQ1409

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The latest NHS performance official statistics were postponed due to data quality issues affecting referral-to-treatment waiting list data at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. A partial statistical release was issued the next day, covering the areas usually published other than RTT. We are working with the health board to urgently address the issues and update the statistics.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

It's disappointing that, instead of being upfront from the outset about the precise cause of this problem, we've had to put forward this topical question to try and get transparency and understand what on earth is going on. We also know this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to shortcomings in the quality, consistency and transparency of health data in Wales. As Iona Collins, the head of BMA Cymru Wales said recently, the true scale of the long waiting lists are being obscured by the fact that, unlike in England, RTT, referral-to-treatment time, figures in Wales only reflect the period after the hospital's receipt of a referral, rather than starting from the moment GPs make that referral. And I'm also hearing that differences in body mass index thresholds across Welsh health boards might be downplaying the extent of pressures on specialisms such as orthopaedics.

So, we deserve transparency and clear and unambiguous answers to the following questions: can the Cabinet Secretary explain what caused this data gap and what exactly is the Welsh Government doing to resolve it? Did the recent contentious decision to publish provisional NHS data ahead of official data releases contribute to this problem? Can the Cabinet Secretary guarantee we will receive the relevant data in time to determine whether the promise given by Betsi Cadwaladr that two-year waits in the health board—which currently stand at over 5,000—would be eliminated entirely by the end of 2025 is met? And finally, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that this fundamental failure in the NHS's data process demands a comprehensive audit of the quality and reliability of health-based data in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the situation to which the Member refers is indefensible, and I don't seek to defend it. We're all entitled to rely on the timely reporting of accurate data: health boards, in order to improve their performance; me, as health Minister, in order to hold health boards to account; and Members of the Senedd and others to scrutinise both the health service and the actions of the Welsh Government. So, I don't seek to defend the failure by the health board to report accurate, timely data.

I would just say to the Member that, if he had watched the public accountability meeting, which was broadcast on Thursday afternoon, he will have noted that the very first question that I asked the health board was in relation to this specifically. So, there's been no attempt whatsoever not to address the question. That was the very first point I put to the health board, given the potential significance of it.

My officials, the NHS Wales chief executive and others, have been in constant contact with the board to seek to understand what is the cause of the issue and to get the relevant data from the board. Obviously, as the Member is aware, official statistics are produced independently, free from political influence or ministerial decision, and they adhere, as he obviously knows, to a range of codes of practice that govern that independence.

What I will say is that less progress has been made than I expected and was assured would have occurred by close of business yesterday. I'm not at all happy with the level of urgency that the executive team is bringing to resolving this matter. I have a meeting with the health board chair at the end of today, where I will expect an account of where they are so that I can decide on our next steps as a Welsh Government. But I expect this to be resolved within the next 24 hours, and, if it is not, I will want a formal investigation of data standards and governance at the board.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer and also to the Member for bringing this topical question forward. You've answered some of my questions already, Cabinet Secretary, but I still don't think we know the 'what', why this has happened. You have said officials are in contact with Betsi Cadwaladr to understand why we've got to this situation, but surely the health board have told officials by now exactly what is the cause of this and what area of the data they cannot provide you. Because surely it is incumbent on all of us around this Chamber that we know exactly what has gone wrong and how you are going to put it right. You did say you would give them until the close of play today to sort this out. If it isn't sorted out by close of play today, Cabinet Secretary, you said that there are steps you would take. I'd like to know what steps they are going to be, because I also heard, I think yesterday it was, from the business manager, that a statement is going to be forthcoming now in January, which is another couple of months' time until we can actually have proper time to scrutinise these figures properly in this Chamber. So, I'd like to know, if these data problems can be sorted out, are we going to have this statement sooner rather than later, rather than waiting until January for a statement to be forthcoming?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the answer to the Member's question of, 'What has gone wrong?' is not one that I can give a categorical answer to at the moment. It's in the nature of the challenge that we're trying to resolve to understand what that is. I also am cautious about giving speculation, because obviously these are matters of statistical veracity and there are processes in relation to that specifically. What I can say to you is that the incident that triggered the concern originally was around the numbers of people appearing on lists when they had been treated. So, that is the basic challenge that caused the issue to be investigated further.

In relation to timing, I think I've been very clear that I expect the issue to be resolved urgently, for reasons that we will all subscribe to. If we are not in a position within the next 24 hours that I have the level of assurance that I want as the health Minister, and that statisticians will also separately want to have, I will want a formal investigation of data standards and governance at the board, so that we can all have the level of confidence that we need in relation to the timely provision of accurate data.

What I would say in relation to the other points that the Member has made—. I'm not sure I know what the reference particularly was to the timing of a statement. It is my intention in any event to make a statement further later on this week, updating the Senedd on whatever developments will have occurred in the meantime and on the latest arrangements in relation to the statement I've already made about making further support available to the health board by way of senior executive advice, and I plan to make that statement to update the Senedd in the coming days.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is next, the 90-second statements. The first is from Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, this Senedd marked the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. I wanted to take this opportunity to highlight again the White Ribbon campaign and why we must dedicate ourselves in Parliament and throughout society to never commit, excuse or remain silent about violence against women and girls.

So far this year in the UK, at least 64 women have been killed in circumstances in which a man or men are primary suspects. They include Leanne Williams of Swansea; Tracey Davies of Cefn Cribwr, Bridgend; Nirodha Kalapni of Cardiff; Shelley Davies of Cardiff; and Angela Shellis of Prestatyn. Welsh women with families and friends and lives wiped out by male violence. Earlier this month, 17-year-old Lainie Williams was found dead near Blackwood. Two days later, 21-year-old Corinna Baker was found dead in Cardigan. In both cases, a man has been arrested on suspicion of murder. That is the ultimate cost and terminus of gender-based violence, but it diminishes and ruins many more lives. One in four women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime.

I would like to pay tribute to the organisations that work day in, day out to support these women and their families. White Ribbon Day marks the beginning of 16 days of activism against gender-based violence, which is supported by events across Wales, offering a powerful opportunity for men and boys to be allies for women and girls, to challenge violence and misogyny at every turn. I urge everyone to get behind it and be part of the change. Thank you.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Today is a landmark moment for Wales and for skills development, as we host the WorldSkills UK national finals for the very first time. Of the 417 finalists from across the UK, 102 are from Wales, representing 10 colleges in 33 competitions, covering areas such as industry 4.0, cyber security and renewable energy. I'm especially proud that Bridgend College is not only one of the three host colleges for this prestigious event, but also has 15 talented learners competing in a range of disciplines, from industrial robotics, landscaping, to foundation skills, including enterprise and restaurant services. Their dedication and achievement reflect the strength of our local education sector and the ambition of our young people.

WorldSkills competitions are more than just contests. They are a platform to showcase Welsh talent, innovation and resilience on a global stage. They help raise learners' ambitions, including to develop technical and employability skills, which underpin a strong and prosperous economy. This is how we prepare for the future and equip our workforce with the skills needed. So, I want to congratulate every learner taking part and thank our colleges for their commitment to excellence. This event sends a clear message that Wales is a world-class place to develop talent and skills.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Luke and Joyce.

6. Debate on petition P-06-1456, 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 is a debate on petition P-06-1456, 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. This debate has been a long time coming. The continued determined efforts of campaigners to pursue all legal avenues to preserve the Welsh Air Ambulance base in mid Wales has postponed this discussion for months. It was vital to ensure that we were not speaking about a matter that was properly being considered in the courts, but the rejection of the last appeal, in October, has removed that barrier.

This petition was submitted by Karl Ciz, having collected a total of 10,437 signatures, and, ironically, was closed early to allow a debate to take place sooner. The text of the petition is as follows:

'Recent announcement by Welsh Air Ambulance to close two bases and centralise its operations leaves whole swathes of Mid and Northwest Wales with inferior coverage. I believe the public need, and public opinion on the matter has not been listened to, and appeal to Welsh Government to intervene.

'A full public enquiry should be launched.

'Many of us feel our rights to Air Ambulance coverage will be eroded, and especially those of us in the mid and Northwest of Wales where the distances to nearest Accident and Emergency facilities are often very distant. This is a lifeline for many of us and it must not be removed without a full public enquiry.'

In response to the petition, in July 2024, the then health Minister, Eluned Morgan, wrote:

'The decision was—and should remain—the responsibility of the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee. The committee was established for the purposes of jointly carrying out the function of planning, securing and commissioning of a range of specialist services, including EMRTS'—

emergency medical retrieval and transfer services.

'It is not a decision for the Welsh Government to make and nor should an operational decision of this nature be one for Ministers to make.'

A review of the service by EMRTS recommended closing the bases at Welshpool and Caernarfon, and moving the helicopters to a new site in north Wales, near the A55. Supporters of the change say this would mean more emergency calls could be answered each year, but campaigners fear it will mean slower response times for certain communities. The EMRTS recommendations included providing an additional bespoke road-based service for remote and rural areas. I'm sure local Members will have more to say about the specifics of the decision and the strong feelings in their communities.

Campaigners have taken their challenge to the highest courts in the land in recent months, without success. While the air ambulance is unique in Wales, at the heart of this petition is a question that will be familiar to Senedd petition watchers: how do we hold health boards accountable for their decisions and how do the views of communities get heard in that decision-making process?

The Petitions Committee has seen petitions relating to almost every health board in Wales seeking to challenge decisions that, usually, are centralising services away from a specific community. I suspect this is a theme that will still be here in the seventh Senedd, as technology and changing patterns of demand will drive further changes in the way health services are delivered. As politicians, we need to find a better solution. I look forward to the debate and hearing the views of Members across the Chamber.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'd like to thank the committee, the petitioners, all those campaigners right the way across mid Wales, and those people who are going to be affected by these changes. Let's not go around the bush: Powys has become a health desert. We have a county with no district general hospital, no A&E department, minor injury units are operating with limited hours, and ambulances are consistently dragged out of our communities to cover shortages elsewhere in Wales. As a direct result, people I know in my constituency, and across mid Wales, have lost their lives. This has caused deep trauma for their families.

Against this backdrop, the decision to close the Welshpool air ambulance base is not only irresponsible, it is dangerous. Response times are already unacceptable, and will only get worse. Communities across mid and north-west Wales will experience slower emergency interventions, yet the Cabinet Secretary continues to offer reassurances that simply do not reflect the lived experiences of people we represent. While the judicial review confirmed the legality of the JCC process, legality does not equal morality or clinical sense. The courts do not rule on whether this decision was safe, fair or justified for rural Wales—that responsibility lies with us here in the Senedd.

The proposal to replace the lost air assets with so-called mitigation measures—rapid-response vehicles located around mid Wales—is wholly inadequate. Even worse, these vehicles do not even exist yet. There are no final plans, no costings, no procurement, and no deployment timetables. The JCC was required to present the detailed plans by September of last year. They did not. Nothing has been delivered.

Meanwhile, the Government insists this is an operational matter, while acknowledging that the decision reflects the Welsh Government's policy expectations. The public, I believe, deserve clarity. If Ministers here are washing their hands of this matter and will not intervene to prevent the closure of these bases across Wales, then they must, at the very least, guarantee that the promised emergency road vehicles are fully operational, fully staffed, fully equipped, and generally capable of replacing what is being taken away to serve urban populations. Without this guarantee, rural Wales faces an unacceptable patient safety vacuum.

The Cabinet Secretary references improving amber category response times in Powys, but they do nothing to change the fact that a man in my constituency waited hours for an ambulance, only to die of a heart attack. That is not acceptable. We cannot discuss theoretical future improvements here while rural residents face real and immediate danger. While we hear the talk of rounded proposals, including night-time capabilities in north Wales, none of that protects the farmers in my constituency, the walkers in the Elan valley, or those drivers on the A470 who might have an accident.

The people of mid Wales and north-west Wales are being treated as an afterthought. They deserve the same access to emergency care as those living along the A55 or below the M4 corridor. Retaining the Welshpool air ambulance base and the one in Caernarfon is not an operational matter, it is an essential safeguard for the people living across rural Wales. Losing it would not only be a redistribution of resources, it would be the abandonment by this Government of people living in our rural communities.

Therefore, I call for a firm and unequivocal retention of those air ambulance bases across our communities, backed by a guarantee that no steps will be taken to weaken or remove this service. Alongside this, I agree with the petitioners that we need a full and independent public inquiry into the data, the governance failures, the lack of transparency and the regional inequalities embedded in this process.

That golden hour—the one we all talk about—cannot be a privilege just for those people who live in urban areas. It must be a right for everybody, right the way across Wales, no matter where they live. People pay their taxes, they give to these charities; they give their money, because they want a service, and we deserve to have that service in rural Wales. We should not be, yet again, pushed aside for the urban centres. And I ask the Cabinet Secretary and I implore him: do all that you can to keep those ambulance bases in our communities, because losing them will be detrimental to the future of our country and detrimental to the health of the people who live in those areas.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you to everyone who has been involved with this petition and has ensured that the petition reached that threshold of 10,000 signatures. May I also thank Russell George for collaborating with me on this? I know that Russ has done a great deal of work in Montgomeryshire and mid Wales with that group.

May I start by pointing out how important this service is for my constituency specifically? The air ambulance was established as a result of a fatal accident in the Harlech area many years ago, on the west coast of Wales. The constituent who started this petition also lives in my constituency on the west coast of Wales, and the young mother who took this case to judicial review also lives in my constituency on the west coast. That's how important this service is to my constituents, to Dwyfor Meirionnydd, and that's why I've been so vocal on this issue, because the proposed changes do worry those constituents.

The one thing that people need assurances on in mid, west and north Wales is that they have health services, and, to date, they have seen their health services decline and lose ground. We've seen the closure of medical centres, we've seen the closure of different health services, and now they see that that one lifeline, if you like, is under threat.

Threatening to centralise the service somewhere in the north-east of Wales at the expense of Dinas Dinlle, north-west Wales, and Welshpool in mid Wales, yes, that will benefit a great number of people in the north-east—and I do welcome that move to providing more services at night—but for anyone who is familiar with the data and statistics that were part of that investigation, we see clearly that there is a threat to services for people in north-west and mid Wales, and that's not acceptable. The people I represent, people in mid Wales, people on Anglesey and in Ceredigion, deserve the same service as any other part of Wales.

That's not to say that we don't support the air ambulance. The service provided by the air ambulance, the charity, are excellent. And that is proven through the fact that people in north and mid Wales are some of the most generous when it comes to donating money to this charity, because they do appreciate the provision being made. But there is no doubt that centralising the service, as is proposed, will be harmful to people in that area, because not only will it take more time for a helicopter to fly to the far ends of the Llŷn peninsula or to southern Meirionnydd, but these rapid-response vehicles will also find it more difficult, and it's those vehicles, in truth, that I am perhaps most worried about. It's clear to me that the people who put these plans together haven't considered the landscape of the area. You have to travel along long and winding valleys in very difficult circumstances, when the fog comes in, when the frost sets in, which will make it very difficult for vehicles to get to areas such as Anelog at the far end of the Llŷn peninsula or Bryncrug in southern Meirionnydd.

EMRTS made the original pledge, during the consultation, that they would provide a new RRV service—rapid-response vehicles—for mid and north-west Wales. So, in the Cabinet Secretary's response, I want to hear, if possible, what work this Government has done with EMRTS, which is funded by the Government here, to ensure that those vehicles will be provided and will be centred and located in mid Wales and west Wales for people in those areas; that those vehicles will be fully staffed by the specialist staff that we need, the kind of staff we have in the helicopters; and that they will be funded. Because that was the pledge that was made, but, as we have heard from James Evans already, there has been no plan put together, no funding has been allocated.

So, what's happening here? Can we have a clear commitment from this Government that you are working with EMRTS in order to secure this provision? That's the pledge we need now. What is the timetable for that? People in my constituency and people in Russ's constituency want answers, because they've already been disappointed. We fear that a crucial service will be lost, and there is nothing to replace it.

We must have that assurance that there will be a service to replace the air ambulance that will be centralised in the north-east of Wales, so that people in Dwyfor Meirionnydd get the service that they need should something go wrong. People in these areas have the same right to services as any other part of Wales. Thank you.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Tens of thousands of people have signed petitions objecting to the plans to close the Welshpool and Caernarfon air ambulance bases. I'm pleased that we have the opportunity again to discuss and debate this issue and the dreadful impact it will have on people living in mid and north Wales.

When someone in Wales faces a medical emergency, it is only natural to wonder who will come to their aid and what services will be available to them upon their arrival. This concern, of course, is even more evident in rural parts of Wales because of the time it takes for emergency services to reach many locations, and this is exactly why the air ambulance service is so valued. Last year, a committee within the Welsh NHS, the JCC, took a decision to close bases at Welshpool and Caernarfon. They made the wrong decision. Lives in mid and north Wales will be put at risk unless the Government intervenes.

The people of mid Wales don't buy the spin that some are peddling that this is going to be a better service for them. It's not. Powys health board and Betsi Cadwaladr health board both voted against and do not support the decision to close these key strategic bases. It's not supported by not only the two health boards, but by tens of thousands of people and clinicians at the bases. It also has cross-party support. I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor, James Evans and others across the parties for their commitment to save and retain these two bases.

Powys does not have a district general hospital, which is precisely why I and Powys residents feel so passionate about retaining the air ambulance service. If people are receiving the service now, they should continue to receive the service in the future. That was the key principle of the so-called consultation. That clearly is not going to happen if the two bases move further away from rural communities. It will take longer for the air ambulance to reach an incident, offer urgent medical attention and transfer people into care as quickly as possible. It is a matter of life and death.

This decision, of course, was later challenged through a judicial review, but it's important to point out that the JR did not examine if the policy to close these bases was correct or not. It was solely concerned with the decision-making process. So let no decision maker or Welsh Government Minister suggest that the legal challenge endorsed the decision in any way.

As part of the proposed changes, a range of so-called mitigation measures were announced, including the deployment of additional rapid response vehicles for areas of mid and north Wales. Those steps fall well short of what is truly needed. But there was a promise made that no base would close until these further resources are operational and in place. Public trust and confidence in the decision makers is at an all-time low. This is why the campaign group, of which I am one member, and the wider public remain sceptical of those commitments made. To date, no clear details have been provided regarding the promised measures, and requests for confirmation from the health Secretary and others have not given any assurance. What the Welsh Government and the health Secretary should do is intervene and ensure that these bases are not closed.

When I questioned the health Secretary a few weeks ago, what he said was that Members would not wish him to deploy ambulances from his office. That was a disappointing and flippant comment. This is not about micromanaging ambulance deployment; it is about leadership and accountability. The health Secretary is ultimately responsible for health services in Wales and should act as the final decision maker on such a significant and strategic decision affecting over 1 million Welsh residents across approximately half the geographical area of Wales. It is particularly concerning when the decision taken does not ensure equitable access and the best possible outcomes for all people across Wales, which is what the health Secretary's measure is.

Finally, I do wish to pay tribute to the many individuals who have fought tirelessly to oppose the closure of the mid and north Wales bases. Their efforts have demonstrated the remarkable strength of feeling. If the Welsh Government wants to continue to support this dangerous decision, it must explain why it considers it acceptable for dozens of communities across Wales to endure slower emergency response times, and why increased unmet need in mid and west Wales is being tolerated. I ask the Welsh Government to intervene and ensure that these key bases remain open and continue to ensure that lives are saved across mid and north Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start my contribution to this debate by recognising the strength of feeling in our communities when it comes to local health services? This is particularly true in rural areas and when people feel that a service is to be lost or taken away from them. I welcome the opportunity in this debate to provide an update to the Senedd on the plans of the Wales Air Ambulance Charity and the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee to improve services, following the Court of Appeal's decision in this case.

The purpose of these plans is clear, namely to improve care and outcomes for people in Wales, including mid and north Wales, who suffer a life-threatening crisis and need medical support and transfer, particularly at night. I understand people's concerns who live near the current centres that this will mean a reduction in service levels. But the aim is to improve everyone's access to care that saves lives.

Quite simply, the current service cannot reach enough people who need support, and the way that the service is organised is responsible for this. Between 2023 and 2024, it was not possible for the service to get to 551 people who needed support in mid and north Wales between 8 o'clock in the evening and 2 o'clock in the morning. In addition to that, the crew in Caernarfon for 199 days didn't see a single patient. And also in Welshpool: 163 days over a two-year period without coming into contact with a single patient. To all intents and purposes—

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, would you take an intervention?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'm just interested in those figures you quoted. Does that include the time during the COVID pandemic as well?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As I mentioned to the Member, that was between 2023 and 2024, so no.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

To all intents and purposes, that is a whole year without a single patient being treated across both centres.

I know that campaigners have fought through the courts in favour of keeping the current arrangements in place. The legal process, as has been acknowledged already in this debate, has now been fully completed, and this allows the charity now to work with the joint committee to improve outcomes for the people of Wales.

It's important to note that it is the joint committee, as has been acknowledged, that commissions the retrieval and transfer services, and they are responsible for this decision jointly with the charity.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

What risks being lost in this process, Dirprwy Lywydd, and in what is understandably a highly charged debate about where bases are located, is the understanding of the excellent work done both by the charity and EMRTS. The charity is a highly valued partner of NHS Wales, and I know it's absolutely passionate about enabling more Welsh residents to receive its services, to save more lives. EMRTS and the air ambulance charity are not—

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Will you take an intervention? I'm grateful for the intervention. You say that they do want to see more lives saved. There is no doubt about that, and good work is being done. But a pledge was made that we would have emergency response vehicles and that they would be located somewhere in the north-west of Wales or in mid Wales. To date, we haven't seen any updates on that, and that's a cause of real concern. Do you acknowledge that concern, and are you working with them in order to ensure that that is developed as a matter of urgency?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I intend to cover that specifically, as it has been raised more than once in the debate. So, I'll get on to that issue specifically, if I may.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As colleagues will be aware, EMRTS and the air ambulance charity are not the first on the scene of an accident or injury. They are the experts who are called to the scene of trauma and life-threatening incidents to provide that life-saving care and to get patients to the right hospital for the next stage of their treatment. The purpose of the change is to ensure that everyone who is currently able to receive EMRTS care will continue to do so, while improving access for those who currently have little or no access at night. As has been acknowledged, the lawfulness of the JCC's decision has been subjected to comprehensive judicial examination, where all relevant facts, evidence and arguments were scrutinised. So, while I note the petition, I don't believe a public inquiry would do more than duplicate the scrutiny. Importantly, it would not result in improved clinical outcomes.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Will you take an intervention?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, certainly.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you. I think you probably would acknowledge, though, that the judicial review was about the process and that an inquiry would be a very different process. It wouldn't be looking at the process of the decision making, it would be looking at the political decisions that were made. So, they are two different things, aren't they?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

They are two different things. I also went on to say that I don't believe an inquiry would result in improved clinical outcomes, and I set out earlier in my contribution to the debate the level of capacity that is currently not used and the level of need that is currently not met by the existing arrangements, which I hope Members will have found helpful.

Coming on, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may—[Interruption.] I want to address a point that Members have raised consistently in the debate, if I may, on recommendation 4 in the review, in relation to mitigating factors. The position of the JCC and health boards, which the court accepted, was that these are a response to core ambulance provision, not a mitigation for base changes. But following the conclusion of the legal process a few weeks ago, work can now resume on those proposals. A plan and a timeline will be published in early 2026 as part of the integrated medium-term plan process for the JCC. That will be supported by transparent governance and, as Members I'm sure will be reassured, appropriate stakeholder engagement. I don't think at this point, in light of that, that it's appropriate for me to comment further, but I hope that timeline is of some reassurance to Members. The JCC and the charity can now, in light of the proceedings concluding, take forward the changes. My role and the Government's role will be to monitor that closely and to get the assurances that we all want to see that these improvements will deliver better for people in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'd like to thank Members for their contributions. James Evans highlighted the lack of access to facilities in his rural community and highlighted that the court decision does not cover what he felt was safe or fair. He also talked about the golden hour, that it should be a right for everyone, not just those in urban centres.

Mabon told us how the air ambulance was started because of a fatality in his area. It is a lifeline for many. He also highlighted how generous people have been in fundraising over the years, and also that the landscape and terrain in west Wales, north-west Wales, can be difficult for land-based vehicles, which should be a consideration going forward. Russell George also highlighted that Powys does not have a district hospital and it's a matter of life and death. The JR did not examine whether it was the right decision, only the process. He also highlighted other things as well. [Laughter.] I'm just picking out the highlights here. Rapid-response vehicles and other measures are not in place yet; they need a guarantee they will be in place before any base is closed. That's essential.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response, and also an update regarding the Wales Air Ambulance Charity plan. So, the aim is to improve access to everyone's life; the current service is unable to get to everyone who needs it. He also highlighted how the charity is a valued partner of NHS Wales, and believes a public inquiry would not improve clinical outcomes and that there is a level of capacity that's not currently used. But following, now, the court decision, work is now resuming on proposals to take forward the plan. So, hopefully, there will be some reassurance there.

I'd like to thank campaigners for—[Interruption.]

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Will you take an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Yes, I will.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Carolyn. I wonder whether you can just confirm: will this petition remain open? Because I think it should do, because there's further work and scrutiny to do on this, as you've acknowledged, because, of course, that commitment was made that no base would close until those rapid-response vehicles were in place. So, I do hope that you'll keep the petition open in order to scrutinise the Government on this.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I will check the committee decision and—. Well, I'll take it back to committee—it's not my decision to make—and check whether it hadn't been closed before we had this debate, but it shouldn't have been. Okay. Thank you.

I'd also like to thank the campaigners for their efforts—gaining over 10,000 signatures is a huge effort. It's highlighted the passion of campaigners for the air ambulance's work, and all the volunteers as well that raise money all the time. It's an emergency service that none of us would ever want to use, but for which all of us are extremely grateful. Thank you for the debate.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. Therefore, I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

7. Debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee Report, 'Apprenticeship pathways'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7, debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Apprenticeship pathways'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in my name on the order paper.

Before I open this debate, I would like to briefly acknowledge that one important voice will be missing today. Hefin David was extremely passionate about apprenticeships and the opportunities they presented to learners and getting the system right. I think other committee members would agree he was the driving force behind this inquiry, and it is very sad that we will not be able to hear his contributions this afternoon.

Apprenticeships are a fantastic option to help people develop their skills and also to assist businesses in upskilling their workforce, which should in turn improve the bottom line. However, we found that there are numerous challenges that stand in the way for people who wish to take a vocational pathway. For many people looking to increase their skills, apprenticeships are by far the best choice. They combine learning and earning, work and training, but we heard that being able to make that choice is not easy, and even once you are in the system, the route is not particularly clear. If you want to sum up this report in one sentence, it is: apprenticeships need to be demystified. That's not my word.

We heard from a number of apprentices as part of the engagement work we commissioned for this inquiry. I would like to thank everyone who took time out from this course to contribute to the work. All those apprentices who have been keen advocates for the vocational route—. One of the participants told us taking an apprenticeship was a massive turning point in their life. It improved their morale and the only regret was they did not start sooner.

However, participants also flagged many of the challenges we have seen with the access to apprenticeships and the pathway. A key challenge for apprentices highlighted in this report included parity of esteem, awareness of what was on offer, and understanding the route through. Whilst we have seen some improvement, parity of esteem is still a real issue. We heard from apprentices that convincing their parents that the vocational route was the right route for them was sometimes actually a hurdle to studying. However, some parents are not the only ones to give poor advice. One participant knew all her life she wanted to run a hair salon like her mum, but her careers advice was repeatedly that she should take A-levels and a degree before going on to vocational training.

We found that there was a perverse incentive at the centre of our education system that almost certainly goes some way to maintaining this misguided view that the academic route is better than the vocational. Welsh schools have a very strong financial incentive to encourage pupils to carry on to study A-levels at sixth form, instead of going off to pursue vocational education at the local college. This leads to the shocking situation where schools are actively giving pupils advice that is to the school’s benefit instead of the student’s. This is, of course, disgraceful. Schools should be acting solely in their pupils' interests, but we heard of cases where, even when the college was next door, pupils were not given information or allowed to explore courses.

I imagine any parent reading our report will be absolutely horrified to hear that schools, as institutions that we would expect to put the interests of pupils first, are incentivised to and actively give poor advice to their students. To address this, recommendation 1 in the report calls on the Welsh Government to ensure schools, colleges and employers work together to present apprenticeships as a high-quality option.

We heard a lot about the Baker clause in England, legislation that requires schools to allow vocational providers access to their pupils. It is not perfect, but it seems a good option to explore, and I think it might provide some useful lessons we could replicate and improve on here in Wales. I was pleased to see the Welsh Government accept this recommendation and give a very comprehensive response. I note in the response that the Minister committed to looking into the Baker clause and writing to the committee. I wonder if he might give us a sneak peek of his findings, and if it is still a matter that his views are being formed on, could he just give us an indication of the timeline that he's working to?

The report also makes recommendations around improving recruitment and retention of vocational trainers, remuneration of apprentices, the degree apprenticeship offers, improving guidance for employers, ensuring progress on the vocational education and training strategy, and enhancing labour market intelligence.

I am pleased to see seven of our eight recommendations were accepted and only one received the dreaded 'accept in principle'. I would like to thank the Welsh Government for their constructive response to this report. I look forward to seeing the outputs; in particular I'm looking forward to reading the vocational education and training strategy in the spring.

I would like to thank everyone who gave evidence to this inquiry for helping the committee develop our understanding and make our recommendations. I look forward to hearing the other contributions on this important topic.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

As a member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I am, first, pleased to be able to contribute to today's debate on the report into apprenticeship pathways, and would like to align myself with the Chair's comments around Hefin David and his contribution. It really was the driving force of this, and his passion for apprenticeships brought us as a committee to this inquiry. His contribution today, I'm sure, firstly, the Minister would have really enjoyed, given Hefin's involvement in apprenticeships, and I'm sure we as a Chamber would have enjoyed it too.

But what the report makes clear is that apprenticeships matter, not just as a route into work, but as a foundation for Wales's future economy. Colleges alone deliver nearly half of all apprenticeships in Wales, consistently performing above the sector average and helping to equip learners with the skills our industries desperately need. Yet, despite that importance, the system supporting them has become stretched, inconsistent and, as the continued reduction in apprenticeships stats shows, fragile.

We've seen starts fall from 22,880 to 21,626 in just one year, and the Welsh Government has revised down its target from 125,000 to 100,000, and even that is looking increasingly challenging, despite the Minister's commitment to that figure, which he gave to the economy committee this morning. Providers have had to rely on an emergency £4.1 million from Medr simply to sustain new and additional starts, and as ColegauCymru highlight, more will be needed next year to ensure apprentices can complete their programmes.

The impact on young people, particularly school leavers, is clear. The Government's own response acknowledges that rising delivery costs have resulted in fewer entry-level opportunities in sectors such as construction and hospitality, precisely the routes that offer 16-year-olds a practical, respected alternative to academic study. If we genuinely believe in opportunity, ambition and aspiration, we can't keep narrowing the very pathways that make vocational education viable.

I am pleased that the Government has accepted many of our recommendations—not all—including the need for clearer, more consistent advice and guidance. Access to impartial in-person careers advice for 14 to 19-year-olds remains patchy, as the Chair alluded to in his opening remarks, and too often apprenticeships are still framed as second best. That must change. In rural communities like the one I represent, where transport costs and availability already limit opportunities, clarity and early information is vital.

I welcome the Government's acceptance of our recommendation for faster progress on a national vocational education and training strategy. The review of vocational qualifications, the transitions report and now the ETRA report all point in the same direction: we need a coherent, long-term plan. The progress has been slow and the strategy, promised for years, cannot continue to be delayed, because warm words alone do not help learners or employers. Equally important is addressing the barriers faced by employers, especially small and medium-sized enterprises. They are, as the report states, time poor; many of these SMEs are one, two or three-man bands that don't have the time resource to invest in training up an apprentice. But in those SMEs is where some of those apprentices can get the very best training and skills available to them. So, there needs to be a simpler process, clearer guidance and genuine incentives to take on apprentices and provide progression routes. And while apprentice wages are not devolved, we must still do everything to ensure that low pay, rising costs and expensive or unreliable transport do not price out young people from the opportunity of an apprenticeship.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales has a proud apprenticeship tradition. Indeed, the Minister himself is a manifestation of that. We should be building on that success, not presiding over some managed decline. So, I support the call to restore the apprenticeship budget and return to the ambition of delivering 125,000 high-quality, all-age apprenticeships, not for the sake of hitting a number, but because our economy needs them. So, from healthcare, engineering, agriculture, hospitality to, indeed, construction, Wales's future growth depends on a skilled workforce, because if we want innovation, growth and prosperity, then we need a skills system that matches that aspiration.

This report gives this Welsh Government, and the next one from May of next year, a clear blueprint and a set of recommendations that they should accept. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'd like to thank the clerks, the Chair and fellow committee members in this inquiry. I would also echo the tributes that have been paid to Hefin David. It's in moments like this when we're debating the apprenticeship and skills agenda, when we're in budget scrutiny, as we were this morning, asking questions around apprenticeships, that I find that I miss him the most. I miss those conversations that we both used to have around how you could tackle some of the issues within the skills system and how you improve the apprenticeship offer. One of the biggest regrets that I have is that we never had the opportunity—we spoke about it all the time—to sit down and tackle that giant of an issue within apprenticeships, which is how you reform the apprenticeship levy. I know that the Minister also shares that interest in how we tackle the apprenticeship levy and I look forward to hopefully having those conversations with him, as we progress the agenda on apprenticeships in the run-up to the next Senedd. But it's in moments like this that I miss Hefin deeply.

I want to agree with Sam Kurtz. I think we need to move away from—and he touched on it—that stigma that is around apprenticeships as being the second-best form of education. I think this report reaffirms everything that we already know about apprenticeships, and that is that they are the cornerstone of Wales's skills agenda and one of the most effective investments, actually, a Government can make in our workforce and in our society. And that's what makes, I think, the moment that is facing the sector such a critical one, as the Welsh Government prepares to lay its draft budget before the Senedd for debate next month.

The past few years have been uncertain for the sector and apprenticeships have taken centre stage in the national conversation in a way, actually, that they haven't for a long time. And, of course, the world is shifting incredibly quickly. What a genuinely growth-orientated education and training system looks like in an age of AI, with ecological and demographic pressures shaping everything around us, is a conversation that actually could keep us in this Chamber for the next week in itself, but the one thing we can say with confidence is that it doesn't look like the status quo.

Now, what this report does is challenge Government to aim higher, and it's a bit of a provocation in that sense. The kind of economy and skills system we want to see is on the other side of a lot of hard work, and reports aren't the end but the beginning of something. So, even though this report is complete, the priorities it lays out for the next Welsh Government have to be given renewed impetus.

We've been talking about this stuff now for ages. There comes a point where we just need to simply get on with it. So, for example, I'd highlight recommendation 7 in particular. Schools, colleges, training providers and employers all agree that we currently lack a clear and comprehensive understanding of Wales's skills requirements and what kinds of courses or training should be prioritised, by which providers and where, in order to give people the skills they need to access emerging opportunities in the Welsh labour market. That's been the conversation that I've consistently had since being elected to this place in 2021. I know the Minister will likely point to the green skills plan, but there's something that's not marrying up here. We're still having these conversations with the sector. So, we need to understand where the tension points are and why, perhaps, they don't see that mapping out in the green skills plan, as the Government says it is there.

It's also worth noting the development of a vocational education and training strategy, aligned with Wales's economic and industrial priorities, is something that actually the Lusher review has underscored and something that ColegauCymru have championed. This is an absolute must. As the basis for this, we also need to undertake a comprehensive national skills audit. The skills gap in Wales was also in evidence during the inquiry, and we know that those vacancies and shortages are within some of our most essential and socially critical professions, including in teaching and health and social care. Again, something's not quite marrying up here. We still have those conversations around skills gaps, even though the Government is clear that it's doing everything it can.

Now, as noted throughout this report, we need an apprenticeship programme that is flexible, that is responsive to meet economic need, service emerging economies and fill skills gaps. These themes are not isolated observations but actually align quite closely with what stakeholders across the sector continue to raise with us day in, day out. The need for more adaptable, better connected apprenticeship systems is suggested widely, and reinforced that these challenges extend beyond individual providers and reflect broader systemic issues. Now, as co-chair of the cross-party group on apprenticeships, this is one of the things consistently raised in the group and one of the things highlighted in the group's response to Medr's recent consultation on the future apprenticeship programme and should be considered as we discuss this report.

The evidence is clear, the challenges are well understood and the opportunities, if we choose to take them, are immense. What we need now is clarity, we need leadership and joined-up thinking and a commitment to do a serious job of work on this agenda. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'm pleased to contribute to this ETRA debate on apprenticeship pathways today. It aligns closely with the Children, Young People and Education Committee's work on routes into post-16 education. And I would also like to highlight the work of our colleague and friend Hefin David. Although he is no longer with us here today, I'd like to just say that the ripples of his legacy continue all the time and we take them forward on his behalf.

For young people and for their parents, who will often have a major influence, clearer, accessible information is essential. They need to know what jobs are available locally and nationally, and they need clarity on the pathways that will take them there. Too often we hear UK and Welsh Government announcements about large investments promising thousands of new jobs, but many of those jobs are in construction and the reality is that we don't currently have enough skilled people entering that sector. If we are serious about delivering these projects, we need a proper workforce plan that starts with our young people.

A key part of that is work experience. Many young people learn best by being practical and engaging directly with the world of work. If we want to keep them engaged and prevent them from dropping out, then there needs to be more meaningful work experience opportunities available. The junior apprenticeship route is a strong example of where this is working well already. We also know that learners training as plumbers and electricians often struggle to secure that final year of real-world experience required to finish their course. We need a simple, consistent model that employers can easily use. At the moment, issues like insurance and administrative burdens too often stand in their way.

Across Wales, there are promising examples we can build on, such as the Cardiff Commitment and Anglesey council's work, which shows how local government can create clear pathways into employment, whether in local businesses or within the foundational economy. There is a real opportunity for other city deal regions and corporate joint committees to support this work in collaboration with Medr and Careers Wales. We also have to acknowledge that sixth forms and further education colleges are also competing for the same students.

A genuinely learner-centred approach, including colleges and employers attending parents' evenings, would help families better understand the full range of vocational and apprenticeship opportunities. University is not the right option for everyone and it's becoming increasingly expensive. One of the report's recommendations is to promote apprenticeships as a career pathway. For the first time, our Minister for apprenticeships is someone who has actually done an apprenticeship, and I know Jack is using that real-world experience to champion the benefits of earning while learning.

Despite the loss of EU funding, the Welsh Government is investing more in apprenticeships than ever before. We also now have a range of new funding streams, from the local growth fund to investment zones, free ports and recent announcements around AI and renewable energy. These offer major opportunities, but they must be aligned with workforce development, not just capital projects. We also need to ensure that public transport subsidies are considered, with routes to employment and access to further education apprenticeships.

Yesterday in the Senedd I met with Bute Energy, who are working with Big Issue Recruit to support people facing barriers into employment. Their future skills strategy covers schools, colleges, work experience and paid internships, and maps the skills pipeline needed for Wales's energy transition. They recommend a future skills compact and a future skills fund for Wales, as well as a network of centres of excellence near major energy projects. These are practical ideas that could genuinely strengthen our skills system. The youth advisory board paid young people offering direct insight to recently engage with 16 to 25-year-olds in Caerphilly, to gather views on skills, social mobility and local priorities. What's striking about their approach is that they are looking at all the jobs created by their developments, from engineering roles to supply chain jobs, security, cleaning, plant hire and third sector opportunities. Their 'meet the buyer' event attracted 70 businesses, demonstrating real potential for local growth. This is a model that could be replicated across Wales.

If we want to unlock the potential of our young people and meet the demands of a changing economy, then our apprenticeship pathways must be clear, accessible and properly supported. That requires ambition, partnership and a commitment to giving every young person a route to a good job and a secure future. Thank you.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'd like to thank the committee for all their work on this, and I think it's really important that we talk about apprenticeships and the opportunities that they can provide for young people. But, as somebody who represents a border constituency, opportunities to access apprenticeships aren't always available for people in my area, because the opportunities available for apprenticeships in England are blocked out from them, because Welsh funding will only be provided to Welsh providers, which I think is a mistake. I think it hampers opportunities for young people. I had a constituent who wanted to study rural enterprise and land management as an apprentice up in Harper Adams, but they were denied that opportunity because they said, ‘That course is not in Wales, it can't be funded, because we do not fund English universities.’

I think if we're going to start to give young people in my constituency, and those people who live on the borders, the opportunity to do apprenticeships, the Welsh Government needs to look at its policy of how it funds those places with English providers, because I'm afraid to say that parochialism that we have here, that we'll only fund in Wales, I think is a mistake. It is holding back some of our young people, and this young individual I was speaking to wanted to come back to work in Wales, and the actual business they want the apprenticeship through was a Welsh provider, so they were only going to go there to study and come back. So, I think the Minister and the Welsh Government really do need to look at how the funding model is set up.

As Luke Fletcher and others have said, if we want to make this an option for people to study, and make it the first choice, not the second choice or a fallback for people, we need to give them the opportunity to study those degree apprenticeships or apprenticeships right the way across the United Kingdom, not just here in Wales, because I think holding people here puts people off doing them, and actually forces them then to go down a route that isn't for them.

I told you, Deputy Presiding Officer, that I'd be very short, and I'll sit down.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank all Members for their contributions today, and can I echo the remarks of the Chair and all Members who contributed to today's debate by supporting their comments around our good friend Hefin? I think Hefin would have particularly enjoyed today, mainly because he would have had the opportunity to grill me not once, but twice. Hefin, of all of you, liked to give me a bit of a hard time, and we enjoyed that contribution from him. It was always a valued contribution.

I'd like to thank all of those who provided evidence to the committee, including apprentices themselves—which I think is great to see and we should see more of—providers, employers and partners across Wales. And I hope the positive spirit in which the debate has been held this afternoon is a reflection on (a) the committee's work and their findings, which we welcome, but also the response that the Government has provided, including accepting seven out of the eight recommendations. I'll try and cover the 'accept in principle' point the Chair made and other colleagues have made later on in my contribution.

Apprenticeships remain a high-quality, accessible route for people of all ages, and they are a vital driver of economic growth. We are proud of the record on delivering our flagship apprenticeship programme in Wales. The Welsh Government has increased annual funding for apprenticeships to £144 million this year, and under the draft budget this will increase further to £146 million for next year. This demonstrates our ongoing commitment to delivering high-quality apprenticeships that support both learners and the Welsh economy.

Llywydd, supporting young people and building a skilled workforce are central to our national priorities. Since the start of the Senedd term, over 85,000 apprenticeship opportunities have been created, and, for Sam's enjoyment in particular, I'll reiterate what I said in committee this morning: we are on track to achieve our 100,000 all-age target for this Senedd term. To further boost delivery, Medr are reallocating an additional £4 million this year, creating more opportunities in sectors that matter most to Wales's economy.

And Llywydd, our world is changing fast. We heard from Members about this, and that is why the Welsh Government's apprenticeship policy statement underlines our commitment to accessible, high-quality apprenticeships that meet the needs of learners and employers. Our approach is to ensure apprenticeships remain flexible and responsive to economic and sectoral needs, supporting progression and opportunity for all.

Alongside this, Medr's strategic plan sets out a vision for a more integrated and responsive tertiary education system, ensuring apprenticeship provision is agile and aligned with learner and employer needs. Our current consideration of level 2 construction apprenticeships, an important sector that Carolyn referred to, demonstrate this in practice. Welsh Government and Medr have worked collaboratively with partners to ensure the system adapts to emerging needs and supports the ambitions of individuals, employers and the wider economy.

Employers, Llywydd, especially small and medium enterprises, are the lifeblood of our apprenticeship system. We are reviewing employer guidance and support, focusing on feedback and employer needs. The Business Wales advisory service continues to act as a central point for employer support. We are also looking to reduce barriers for employers, particularly SMEs, by simplifying processes and ensuring information and support are accessible.

Llywydd, apprenticeships in Wales remain—[Interruption.] Yes.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I appreciate that, obviously, the budget has only come out today in Westminster, but there were some really exciting parts of that budget speaking particularly to apprenticeships and providing that support to businesses who want to take on apprenticeships. Has the Minister had an opportunity to think about how that might factor into a Welsh budget around apprenticeships, again, appreciating that you might not have had the chance to go through the detail?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

So, I haven't had the chance to work out the detail, but it was a nice try from the Member. I know James doesn't have anything to do today and can watch BBC, but I've been quite busy, Presiding Officer, but I will take the time to watch the detail.

As I was going on to say, Presiding Officer, apprenticeships in Wales remain fully funded for training costs for all ages and businesses. The shared apprenticeships programme enables apprentices to work with multiple employers and is being expanded to include green skills sectors. We are acutely aware of our current and future skills needs across Wales in many of our key sectors, and the need to prioritise this. Addressing this, labour market intelligence is being strengthened through a planned national skills audit and enhanced collaboration with regional skills partnerships. Members will be pleased that the skills audit planned will be supported by £75,000 in dedicated funding, and will provide robust evidence to inform future planning and building on the work of the successful green skills review.

Llywydd, apprenticeships are just the start of people's learning journey. Members will also be aware of the funding for the flexible skills programme that has not only been welcomed in this Chamber, but also by industry. Parity of esteem, as the Chair outlined in his opening, between vocational and academic routes, is vital for providing the young people of Wales with the opportunities they deserve, while acting as a vital starting point for the talent pipeline in our economy. Our programme for government commitment commits to achieving parity, and we are working with Careers Wales, Medr, and other partners to ensure learners receive impartial advice and are aware of all of the options that the Member outlined. Careers Wales now offers guidance to all year 11 learners, and we are supporting initiatives to widen participation.

Llywydd, a national vocational education training strategy is in development with stakeholder engagement. The strategy will be informed by five delivery strands, including innovation, collaboration and widening participation. A stakeholder reference group is helping shape that work, and a strategic direction for vocational education and training will be published in the spring. [Interruption.] Yes.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

You mentioned a little bit ago about Careers Wales and the advice that they give to people. I'm just interested: is that advice tailored, as I said earlier, to people who are living in my constituency and other areas, to sort of say, 'If you want to go and study an apprenticeship in England, you probably will not get funding for that', so it doesn't build up the hopes of young people just to crash them down when they go through the process?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, Careers Wales will offer impartial and correct advice to all Members, and they will do that in a way that suits all parts of Wales and all constituents as well.

Llywydd, further work is being done to clarify progression routes and expand higher level opportunities, including degree apprenticeships. One of the points the Chair recognised as well was that recruiting and retaining skills trainers and assessors is essential to achieving all of our goals, and we are working with providers to identify barriers and support professional development, ensuring a sustainable workforce. We are committed to supporting providers, as they adapt to new challenges, and promoting a more consistent approach to professional development. Every learner, regardless of their background, deserves the opportunity to succeed, and we are determined to ensure they can. And the reason, Presiding Officer, for the one accept-in-principle recommendation to recommendation 3 is because that precisely falls in the operational remit of Medr, who have also responded to the committee.

Llywydd, we set ourselves ambitious targets regarding uptake of the apprenticeship system in Wales, precisely because we know the difference apprenticeships make to the lives of those who complete them and to the future of Welsh employers. I will never tire of saying how proud I am to be a former engineering apprentice. Apprenticeships are the gateway to success in life, and I would like to recommend that path to anyone that I meet in the future. I can see time's with us, Chair, so I'd like to—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I'll give you extra time because of the interventions you accepted.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm nearly wrapping up anyway, Chair, and I think Members will be grateful for that. So, I do want to thank the committee for its work again. We are committed to working with all partners to ensure apprenticeships remain a robust, attractive and accessible pathway for all, supporting both individual aspirations and the future needs of our economy. And to the Chair, who I haven't quite got to, I haven't got a timeline for responding, but I am committed to it. He'll appreciate that I'm still only just responding to the committee report, but I will provide the committee with an update on the question that he asked. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, DPO, and just to sum up the few points that were raised. It's always pleasing to hear Members who weren't sitting on the committee contributing to the debate—Carolyn Thomas and James Evans. James Evans highlighted a problem with a Powys constituent, but that is a problem that is across Wales, and especially in the agricultural community. With agricultural engineering, I can think of an example in my own region where someone wanted to do an engineering course on a particular brand of product, and that product was only available at an FE college in England, that part of the course was, and they couldn't get funding to go to do the course and therefore they couldn't take their apprenticeship any further forward, they couldn't. So, there is an issue about the slate curtain that is stopping people going over to colleges in England where courses are provided. And that's something, I think, that the Minister hopefully will take up and look at, because, obviously, it's been raised with us here today by James Evans, and I'm sure others would have other examples they could use as well.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Carolyn Thomas highlighted the importance of quality information and the ability to work with the learner and make sure that they get the right work experience—quality work experience—which I think we can all remember in our school days was something that was readily available, in fairness, but sadly has fallen out of favour, almost, in schools. And we need to get that work experience—. Not just give someone an overall to stand in the corner of a room, but to actually get their hands on oil and other bits and pieces in the engineering sector, and other vocational courses, so that they get a genuine taste of what an apprenticeship might look like. And that, hopefully, would stimulate their imagination and their desire to actually fulfil the course and get the grade of training that they require. And it's an important part that was touched on in our report when we were taking evidence.

She also touched on an interesting route to provide more apprenticeships: city deals. And it's something that I hadn't given much thought to, to be honest with you, but I think it is something that is very worth while considering and taking forward. And we might well, as a committee, put our thinking caps on and write to the city deals, because that's an inquiry we have undertaken, and put that suggestion to them to see how they can facilitate that learning route for apprenticeships.

The two committee members who spoke, Luke and Sam, both highlighted the importance of the apprenticeships that they have both signed up to, because they are both very evangelical about talking about the apprenticeships that should be available to learners. But, importantly, they both highlighted the evidence that we took that, in many instances, they're regarded as second best, because obviously there's this overarching belief in the educational fraternity that you have to go down the route of academia, and that isn't the case. And, frankly, someone who's done an apprenticeship and done a vocational course, very often, when it comes to pounds, shillings and pence, is earning more at the end than someone who has taken an academic route and got a degree.

I always remember an experience when I was in Dublin and someone said to me, 'If you want someone to programme a computer, you can find any one of 101 people in any bar or club across this city. If you want someone to change a light bulb or fix the plaster in your flat, you won't find anyone as such, and they'll be able to command a premium for that then.' And that's the truth of it. We train people, whether it's academia or vocational, to go into the place of work and make our economy work better, and that's what should be driving what we're trying to achieve.

The national long-term planning of the system, and, above all, the opportunities that are available are immense, but we must make sure that that advice reaches the learner and that the learner isn't treated as a commodity in the education system. We took clear evidence that that is the case and that schools, in particular, were hanging on to that learner against their best interests, and both spoke about that situation that we found ourselves in.

The Minister highlighted the Government's target of 100,000. That is a reduced target, Minister, as we talked about in committee today. Obviously, the manifesto target was 125,000, down to 100,000. It maybe is slightly telling on predecessors that they took 25,000 out of the equation and they took it out of the apprenticeship equation. And that was something to be regretted because that's 25,000 fewer opportunities for people, obviously, to secure the education that they require to get that job in the workplace.

You also highlighted the important advice route that you now advocate, that all year 11 students get impartial advice. And that's important, that it is impartial, and it is focused on the ability of the learner to make those decisions. But, as our report highlights, it's not always the learner that needs to be convinced, it's very often that the parents as well need to be taken on that journey of the importance of vocational training. And if we can break down that barrier and say that there's that parity of esteem, then we generally will have success.

But I do thank everyone who's contributed to this debate today. I was really pleased that the Government accepted our recommendations and I hope now that they follow through on those commitments in the response that they made to us. However, with the election looming, I would also hope that the next Minister for skills, and importantly the Minister for education, whoever they may be, will read this report and take the findings to heart.

The changes we are looking at for the educational system and social attitudes are not all things that can be delivered overnight. Demystifying the vocational route and ensuring it gets the respect it deserves are challenges that will take time to overcome. Access to apprenticeships is important. They can vastly improve the life chances of learners and they can support Welsh businesses to succeed. However, neither of these things will happen if the vocational route remains a mystery and our schools continue to promote the well-trodden academic path that is, at best, sometimes, the only option.

In closing, I would like to thank the Senedd Commission team who supported the committee through this work, and again give a brief note of thanks to everyone who gave evidence, including the people who took time out to take part in our engagement work. The committee will follow the implementation of our recommendations with interest, and I thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: UK Government budget

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 8 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate: UK Government budget. I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion before us today. What an omnishambles of a budget we've experienced this afternoon. The autumn budget is supposed to be one of the most important economic moments of the year. It sets the tone for the months ahead, highlights the Government's priorities, and outlines the challenges facing families, workers and businesses. At a time of real economic pressure, people across Wales were looking for certainty, stability and leadership. Instead, what they received is a culmination of weeks of confusion, delay, uncertainty and economic instability. And what does all this do? It erodes trust and confidence in a Government to deliver for people in the UK and here in Wales.

We know in this place that trust is so important, the cornerstone of our democracy. Without it, our whole system begins to fall apart, and right now, that is breaking, because we have a Labour Government who have broken promise, after promise, after promise. When Labour came into Government, they promised to not tax working people. They brought in a jobs tax, which is hitting businesses and charities with higher national insurance contributions. Their family farms and family firms tax has caused real distress for people who are already working hard just to keep things going. Promises made, promises broken.

We were also told that the last budget, last year, was a once-in-a-Parliament budget. Rachel Reeves said, 'We're not coming back with more tax increases or borrowing.' Yet, today, the Chancellor delivered another tax-raising budget: £26 billion in tax rises that will punish hard-working people up and down Wales. The result of Labour's choices. Promises made, promises broken.

I said this budget was an omnishambles in my opening remarks. It was delayed, rewritten and accompanied by a series of very public u-turns. Far from providing reassurance, the uncertainty created by the Government has led to hesitation in the markets, delay from investors and anxiety among employers. Businesses across Wales, especially small firms already working with tight margins, were left unable to plan, unsure what tax or regulatory environment they would face. And then, to top it off, the Office for Budget Responsibility report leaked before the budget was announced. Absolutely extraordinary, and shows that Labour has not got a grip.

Since Labour took office, people are telling us that they feel worse off, and this is for good reason. We have so far seen unemployment up; borrowing costs are up; inflation is up; debt interest up; tax rises are up. Simply put, this Labour Government is not working. This is not how a responsible Government behaves. Stability and predictability are the foundations of economic confidence, and today's budget has delivered neither.

But we know, even without this recent instability, the economic backdrop created by this Government was already extremely challenging. Analysts, including from the Bank of England, have made it clear that Labour's tax rises last year hindered growth, reduced unemployment, added to inflationary pressures, and ultimately have depressed tax receipts. And here lies the core problem: Labour's economic decisions last year made the situation worse, not better.

We've heard that Labour backbenchers in Westminster have described this budget as a budget for the party, not for the nation. They continue to put party before nation by refusing to get welfare spending under control. Instead of taking the fair and truly compassionate approach of helping people into work, they're expanding welfare spend, whilst also seeing 5,000 people a day move out of work and onto benefits.

By contrast, when the Conservatives were in power, 800 new people every day entered the workplace. We are clear that only the Conservatives offer a credible route to repairing public finances, with £47 billion in spending reductions, including cutting foreign aid, reducing the civil service back to pre-pandemic levels, and getting welfare spending back under control so that work pays and the system is fair and sustainable, following the Conservatives' golden economic rule to get borrowing back under control.

What we're seeing from Labour in Westminster looks all too familiar, because it's the same story we've seen from Labour here in Wales, being propped up by Plaid Cymru. They simply don't know how to manage the economy. The Welsh Conservatives have already pointed out areas in the Welsh Government where they continue to waste money that could be put to much better use in helping our economy thrive.

These national decisions matter deeply for Wales, because here we face serious and growing challenges. Economic and demographic and social pressures are mounting, our public services are stretched to breaking point, our private sector remains reluctant to invest here because of the hostile business environment created by Labour-run Governments at both ends of the M4, households continue to struggle with real cost pressures because of the rises in inflation, businesses are still recovering from multiple economic shocks, and local authorities from Wrexham to Pembrokeshire warn of unprecedented budget deficits.

In that context, this autumn budget should have offered clarity, ambition, and a plan for growth. Instead, it delivered uncertainty, instability, and neglect, all rooted in Labour's decision to continue raising taxes and its refusal to get welfare spending under control. It's clear that Labour entered Government without a clear plan. They inherited a recovering economy, the fastest growing in the G7, with inflation back under control at 2 per cent. But their disastrous choices at the budget last year have locked Britain in a doom loop of higher spending, costly borrowing, and higher taxes.

On these benches, we want Wales to thrive, we want families to prosper, businesses to feel confident, and communities to know that they are supported. But for that to happen, we need a UK Government that treats Wales as a serious partner. We need long-term strategic investment, not one-off pots or sporadic gestures. This budget was an opportunity to reset the relationship with Wales and to demonstrate a real understanding of the challenges our nation faces. Instead, it has shown the opposite. It's clear that the Conservatives have a credible plan to fix Wales and get our economy moving.

Today I urge Members to acknowledge the reality that the autumn budget has failed to deliver for Wales, the UK Government's priorities are not aligned with the needs of our communities, and the people of Wales deserve better. I urge all Members to support our motion.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Though it's very tempting to focus on the hypocrisy of the Tories in my response to the budget, I'm not going to do so, because this is a big deal, a big moment, not just for political commentators, public services and Governments, such as ours here in Wales, but, more importantly, for the people we represent. They are the ones looking at what the budget means for them. They are the ones that have felt the pressures in recent years. It's not just a cost-of-living crisis—[Interruption.] I'm not taking an intervention. I haven't made any points at the moment relevant to the budget, so I'm not taking that intervention.

It's the people of Wales who've had to suffer in recent years. It's not a cost-of-living crisis—it's become a way of living for the majority of people, of facing that impossible choice that we've seen between heating or eating, or neither in some cases, of not being able to afford a home. The increase we've seen in services such as the reliance on foodbanks, for things that are completely fundamental, should shame us all. So, I'm testing today's budget on what those people that we represent will be thinking of this budget.

We also need to look at what all of our scrutiny work, and looking at the budget that we have as a Senedd, will mean for them. Because, let's be clear, whilst there is additional funding being announced for Wales today, this is consequential funding, Barnettised, that it is usual for Wales to receive. It's also worth noting that it is an eighth of what Wales is owed from HS2 expenditure alone. The reality is that real-terms growth in the Welsh budget over the course of this spending review period will be lower than at any point during the devolution era—lower even than the last spending review period of the previous Tory Government. Wales's capital budget is also expected to contract in real terms over the same period—the only one of all the devolved nations where this is the case.

The budget is completely silent on reforming our outdated and unfair funding arrangements, silent on the devolution of the Crown Estate and correcting historic underinvestment in our rail infrastructure, of which HS2 is just one symptom of a larger problem. Furthermore, the fundamental injustice—the words of the Cabinet Secretary for finance—of Wales being short-changed as a result of the Barnettisation of UK Treasury reimbursements for employer national insurance contributions in the public sector has not been rectified. This is a shortfall that will continue to be passed on to our public services for the foreseeable future, meaning further reductions in services and support, as we've seen over the past year, being inevitable.

Whilst we should be clear as a Senedd that additional funding is welcome, we are not going to be grateful and overjoyed when it is less than what is owed to us, and when there is no meaningful attempt to correct the glaring disparity in wealth and power that exists across these islands. Earlier this afternoon, my colleague Sioned Williams welcomed the removal of the cruel two-child benefit cap, and it's clear that this is very welcome. But, as we've heard the Chancellor this afternoon say in her own words 'ordinary people' will pay 'a little bit more'. Her words—'ordinary people'. We know how difficult it is for the majority of people now. It was an opportunity to make sure that those who have the most pay the most. Ordinary people are paying more.

As we discussed last week, we could have seen the introduction of a wealth tax, the levying of taxes on commercial bank profits and quantitative easing-related reserves. We are seeing this unfairness continue. And unlike the Scottish Parliament, we are arbitrarily denied the right to set our own tax bands to better reflect the nature of our tax base. There are some welcome changes in terms of the Welsh reserve waiver, but this is only temporary, rather than being lifted completely. So, Westminster's hand on Wales's own till will continue to weigh heavily. This has to become a permanent change.

There is a welcome easing of Westminster's grip on the Senedd's fiscal architecture, but our capacity to borrow to invest in our nation will still be significantly underpowered by international standards. In terms of the investment announced, we of course welcome any additional investment coming to Wales, but there is a conspicuous silence on harnessing our enormous potential for green energy, underlined by the continued refusal to provide us with the ability to profit from our own natural resources.

There is also very little detail on what say or influence, if any, the Welsh Government will have over some of the spending decisions announced, despite promises in Labour's general election manifesto to return decision-making powers over post-Brexit EU funds to Wales. There will be an opportunity for us to digest and really understand what this means for Wales, but certainly there are some glaring omissions, and unfortunately it's the people of Wales that we represent that will suffer.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Apparently, the Tories have a credible plan to get the economy of Wales moving. [Interruption.] The trouble is—[Interruption.] It's just a real pity you've failed to provide any insight into how you would do that. So, I absolutely don't think at the moment you're part of the discussion.

Yes, of course it was as expected. We had the abolition of the two-child benefit cap, which, as others have said today, should have gone much earlier, but now it's gone and that's great. That's really good news for people with several children in their families. What I want to concentrate on today is how this budget did not do what I had hoped it would do in terms of rectifying the completely dysfunctional system that we have in our energy system, which obviously, along with food, is the main cause of people's distress with the cost-of-living crisis. So, yes, there were baby steps taken in removing social and environmental levies from electricity pricing and moving that over to general taxation, which is obviously much more progressive, and that will presumably reduce the cost of electricity bills, though it's unclear at this moment how much, but no doubt we'll read about that in tomorrow's papers.

But it was very disappointing, for me anyway, that the Chancellor didn't decouple the price of electricity from the global price of gas, because whilst we are pegged in everything we do in energy to the global price of gas, it doesn't give us the true benefit of all the work we've done on switching to renewables. Green energy should be protecting our energy supply from the chaos that is the fluctuating price of fossil fuels on the global marketplace, because renewables are now far cheaper than fossil fuels. Between 2010 and 2023, according to analysis done by Unite the Union, which is my union, solar power costs have fallen by 90 per cent, onshore wind costs have fallen by 70 per cent, and offshore wind has fallen by 63 per cent. That's in a mere 13 years of Tory Government. Solar is now 56 per cent cheaper than fossil fuel energy, but we're still stuck paying the same inflated prices because of the pegging of energy prices in our domestic bills to the global market price of gas, which is something that obviously all our constituents can do absolutely nothing about.

Obviously, it keeps the fossil fuel barons in the middle east, Russia, China and the United States very happy, but it really doesn't do the job that we want to have done to move forward in greening our economy, which is absolutely crucial to everything that we are going to do in terms of continuing to be able to deliver the developments and jobs that all our constituents want. Instead, we continue to reward energy companies who made £30 billion of profits before tax from the energy system in 2024. This is the last available analysis that we have true figures on. That means that the average UK household gives £500 a year to the energy companies' profits. The Government of Norway makes an excellent £5.9 billion pounds from UK households, and the second biggest gas generator, Uniper, owned by the German Government, is also making a tidy sum.