Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 15 October 2025

287 contributions from 38 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Shwmae, Senedd. Good afternoon. It is Diwrnod Shwmae today, so shwmae to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language too—your questions are first on our agenda this afternoon. The first question is from Julie Morgan. Shwmae, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support people in council tax arrears? OQ63258

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you, Julie Morgan, and shwmae to everyone today, on Shwmae Su'mae Day.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the outcome of our consultation on fairer arrears enforcement practices was announced on 26 September. Regulations will be laid on 23 October so that improvements can be implemented from April of next year. These changes will help promote earlier intervention and prevent the rapid escalation of council tax debt.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for that answer.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I think the cost-of-living crisis, as we all know, has hit people very hard. I'm regularly told by constituents how hard they are finding it to make ends meet, and council tax arrears are regularly raised with me. I think, in 2024, Citizens Advice across Wales helped over 26,500 people with debt problems. Council tax arrears was the most common issue that they dealt with, so we know that it's a huge problem. So, I really welcome the Welsh Government's initiative to increase the period of time to 63 days before any enforcement action is taken, because I think this will really help people who are struggling. So, as I say, I support the action that has been taken. What else is the Welsh Government doing to support people who find themselves in council tax arrears?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Julie Morgan for that set of supplementary questions, Llywydd. The single most important action that the Welsh Government has taken in order to prevent arrears of council tax, of course, was the creation of a national council tax benefit scheme, as far back as 2013. We remain the only part of the United Kingdom with a national scheme of help. It provided £244 million in the last financial year, and 256,000 households benefited from it, and 216,000 households paid no council tax at all. By definition, those are the households least able to pay the tax. That is the single most important thing we do to help prevent those families from falling into arrears. There are other measures that we've taken since then, of course. I know that Julie Morgan was a strong supporter of the decision to exempt care leavers from paying council tax up until the age of 25. Some 2,700 young people have benefited from that decision since that was made in 2018.

Now, as Julie Morgan said, Llywydd, we consulted on a set of specific measures to improve the processes that respond when people do fall into arrears—measures relating to reminder notices, final notices, liability orders, and particularly giving people more time to pay. The previous rules were draconian in the potential impact. Of course, most local authorities didn't act according to the strictest requirements, because the strictest requirements are, if you miss one payment, within seven days, you will become liable for the whole of the annual bill. For people who are struggling in any case, that was obviously not a helpful way to proceed, and most local authorities didn't proceed of course in that way at all. But now people will get 63 days, and that will allow them to seek the help that they will need in order to regularise their position. The measure is a preventative measure in that way, because it aims to stop problems from escalating and becoming even more difficult for individuals to be able to get back on track. It's that provision of advice, it's the use of the benefits charter that we are negotiating with our local authorities, those will be the additional measures that will help people who do find themselves in those difficulties.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

2. What steps has the Welsh Government taken to support teachers to develop their Welsh language skills? OQ63244

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Cefin Campbell for the question. Llywydd, we are funding the National Centre for Learning Welsh to provide a wide range of support, on various levels, for school practitioners to develop their Welsh language skills free of charge. Over 2,000 members of the workforce have received training through the centre over the past year alone.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Well, shwmae, Cabinet Secretary. In 2022 and 2023, 396 Welsh-speaking teachers were trained, but, in the same year, 395 teachers left the profession, which is a net increase of just one in one year. Of course, the lack of teachers who are confident to teach through the medium of Welsh is something that has held back Welsh-medium education, and something that could hold back the the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025, which is a measure that we've both collaborated closely on in the Senedd. Indeed, there has been little development in Welsh-medium education during the last 10 years—0.6 per cent in primary schools, but a decline of 0.7 per cent in secondary schools. So, something has to change.

So, Cabinet Secretary, what plans in terms of funding, support and targets does the Welsh Government have in place that would lead to meaningful progress in the Welsh language skills of the education workforce? And this could include those teachers who already have strong Welsh language skills but need more confidence, and those who have a little Welsh but who need support to use the Welsh language in the classroom.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Cefin Campbell. I agree on the final point that he made on the importance of those people who are already in the workplace, and how we can do more to help them develop their skills, gain confidence and contribute to Welsh-medium education.

Now, funding is one thing—and I heard what the Member had to say over the weekend—but there are many other things that are also important to people who are making choices as to whether they want to undertake teacher training, or whether they want to follow some other career. We know that high-quality training that is available in a way that allows people to take those opportunities is crucially important. And that's why the National Centre for Learning Welsh is currently providing a number of programmes aimed specifically at developing language skills and confidence among teachers.

One example is the intensive course over a fortnight, held in July of this year, for prospective postgraduate certificate in education students. Over 40 students completed over 60 hours of Welsh lessons, with positive results in terms of their confidence and their ability to teach through the medium of Welsh. And that's just one example of the things currently happening in order to draw more people into the workforce, but also, as Cefin Campbell said, to develop the skills of those already in the workforce.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and shwmae. And shwmae also to you, Cabinet Secretary.

Could I ask what work is being done at present to draw in students in universities in England back into Wales, to ensure that they enter the workforce here in Wales? They will, perhaps, have the language skills across the border in England, but they might well think about teaching in England or in other places. But because they have the language, it's important to attract them back to Wales, into the workforce, to strengthen the numbers that Cefin Campbell mentioned earlier. So, what work is the Government doing to attract those students back to Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, thank you very much, and shwmae to Sam Kurtz. I had an opportunity some weeks back to have a discussion with the coleg cenedlaethol—not the National Learning Centre for Learning Welsh, but the coleg cenedlaethol—and they have more possibilities now. They can identify where those sixth formers in Wales go to university—not just to London, but to anywhere in England—and who have been educated through the medium of Welsh. And because we can work more flexibly online now, they are going to create a network of Welsh speakers who are in places where there aren't many opportunities for them to use the Welsh language, because they may be studying in Newcastle or wherever they may be, so that they can be brought together and given more opportunity to use the Welsh language skills that they have, and to maintain those skills, thereby creating a network of people who are interested in participating.

The point that Sam Kurtz makes is an important one, isn't it? We want people who've been educated through the medium of Welsh to study wherever they choose, but also to retain the Welsh language skills that they have, and to use those skills once they've completed their studies and to return to Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. As I come from north Wales—

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

—I'll say su'mae rather than shwmae this afternoon.

Cabinet Secretary, this is an important time in the budget cycle, with Rachel Reeves, the UK Chancellor, set to lay out a budget next month. Of course, that will have a knock-on effect onto the Welsh Government's finances and ability to deliver and spend on public services here in Wales. I hear, I'm sure as you do, from leaders of local authorities up and down Wales who say they're struggling with balancing their books from time to time and dealing with pressures and funding cuts. So, I wonder whether you have any particular wishes for Rachel Reeves's budget coming up, which may be able to support our local authorities up and down Wales, recognising that any funding coming from Westminster is unhypothecated, but may give an indication as to where funding should be directed to ensure that councils are able to deliver those services that people up and down Wales rely on.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Sam Rowlands for that question. Llywydd, if we're comparing things around Wales, then, of course 'shw' wyt ti' is what people in sir Gâr would be more likely to say.

I am going, as I said to Members yesterday, to the FISC, the finance Ministers standing conference, at the end of this week in Edinburgh. The issues that will be raised there, not simply by the Welsh Government but by the Scottish and Northern Ireland administrations as well, will focus on more non-fiscal measures that the UK Government could take to help us to make best use of the money that we have.

I don't think we could expect large sums of new money to come out of the autumn budget, given everything we read about the circumstances in which that budget is being created, and given that it was only in June that the Chancellor set out a three-year revenue and a four-year capital horizon for us. But, the things that I will be focusing on in my conversations with the UK Government will be the need for fiscal flexibility, the need for us to be able to use the money we've already got in a way that better reflects the needs of Wales, less constrained by micromanagement by the Treasury.

I will also be focusing on a set of ideas to make the Barnett formula work as effectively as it can. You'll know that it's the policy of the Welsh Government that Barnett should be replaced, but there's less enthusiasm for that in other parts of the United Kingdom. But, where I think there can be a joint approach is in making sure that the Barnett formula works in a way that is visible to everybody, understandable to everybody, where we're clear what the rules are, and, where there are disputes about the interpretation of those rules, there is an element of independence in the way in which any of those disputes will be navigated. That's where I think there are possibilities of progress being made by the time of the autumn budget, and that's what I will be focusing on when I am in Edinburgh this week.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, funding for councils is always a delicate matter and a balancing act for those local authorities themselves. What we have seen in recent times in England is now councils that are run by parties such as Reform UK. We've seen Reform UK running councils with promises of making sweeping cuts to council tax and by finding efficiencies and savings within those local authorities. The evidence now seems to be clear, though, that they are proposing to raise council tax by the highest possible amount, and in places like Worcestershire are looking at raising council tax by 10 per cent in that local authority. On top of that, their much trumpeted DOGE programme of work seeking efficiencies in local authorities has found nothing whatsoever. So, would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that, from the current evidence we're seeing from Reform running and being in charge of finances of local government, their current approach of populism is financially reckless and politically irresponsible?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Sam Rowlands for those points. It's very interesting, isn't it, what we are learning from when we see people who made those reckless promises, and that entirely fantasy set of economic promises, when we see them confronted with the realities of running services and having to make hard decisions rather than empty and easy promises. I've been watching particularly the performance of Reform in leading Kent County Council. I'd had an opportunity earlier in the year to meet with the then Conservative leader of the county council and to hear of some of the innovative work that they were doing and the stresses that they felt in their budgets at that time. Now they have a Reform council who find, as you say, the idea that there are lots of things that go on that can easily be dispensed with and where nobody gets harmed in the process turns out to be absolutely untrue. I think the sunlight of democracy is shining on those places, and I do hope that here in Wales people learn the lessons from that, that they see the reality of what happens when you follow a set of promises that have absolutely no chance whatsoever of being delivered.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you again for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I know too well some of those challenges that council leaders have in balancing those books and, you're right, far too many promises can be made by those at times seeking election.

Talking of fantasy finances, we heard from Plaid Cymru again their pursuit of independence from the United Kingdom. It was interesting to hear the Secretary of State for Wales, Jo Stevens, pointing to the tax burden that would cause on people here in Wales, if Plaid Cymru's promise of independence was pursued further than it is to date. Jo Stevens pointed out that £21 billion tax annually would have to be found here in Wales—that's £11,000 per person per year here in Wales. What would be your assessment, Cabinet Secretary, if Plaid Cymru got their way and had an independent Wales? What would be your assessment both for public services here and our economy? Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Again, I thank Sam Rowlands for that. Let me make my own perspective on this clear at the beginning. Independence is a course of action available to people in Wales, but the debate with people in Wales would need to be an honest one about what might be gained and certainly what would be lost in the process, because the case for the United Kingdom is that it is a great engine of redistribution, run in the right way. That means that those parts of the United Kingdom where needs are greatest benefit from the funds that flow to those areas from places where funds are in greater abundance. We certainly know that that will be true of Wales, Llywydd. Twenty-two per cent of the population in Wales are over 65, compared to 19 per cent in England. We know that the needs of older people drive service use and costs in our health service, our social care service and so on, because older populations are associated with higher levels of sickness and disability. The proportion of disabled people in Wales is around 21 per cent, again compared to 18 per cent in England. Thirty per cent of the population in Wales lives in a rural area, compared to 17 per cent in England. There are—and this is a figure that always stays in my mind—6.7 miles of road for every 1,000 people in Wales, compared to 3.4 miles for 1,000 people in England.

All of those things mean that the amount of funding needed in Wales to provide a comparable service to another part of the United Kingdom is higher. If Wales is not part of the United Kingdom, then that balancing effect that comes with being part of the United Kingdom would disappear. There would be a very big bill indeed for people to reach. People can choose to pay that bill. That’s absolutely a genuine choice that people can make, but they would want to make it with their eyes open, not in the belief that somehow the route to independence is paved in gold, because it's certainly not.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Su'mae to everyone here. Certainly, looking at what you've just discussed, I want to look at another union, namely the European Union, because a new growth fund for Wales was announced recently, namely Westminster's most recent attempt to respond to the significant investment shortfalls that have resulted from Brexit. Could you confirm whether the amount earmarked for Wales is more or less than what came through the corresponding programmes of the previous Westminster Government?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, this is not a matter for which I have ministerial responsibility, and I'm not directly responsible for the detail of the policy. What I can say quite certainly is that leaving the European Union has been a cause of economic harm, both to the United Kingdom and to the people of Wales. Finally, we're now in a position where funds that used to flow from the European Union directly to this Chamber have now been repatriated to Wales, and it's taken the best part of a decade for that to happen. We all remember the many promises here about Wales being not a penny worse off. Sadly, we know that is not the case, and the amount of money that we have in that fund is not the same amount of money we would have had had we continued to be in membership of the European Union. Nevertheless, there's £500 million that previously was not available to this Senedd and will now be available over the next three years.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer. Obviously, we all remember the pledges that we heard that Wales would not be a penny poorer after leaving the EU, and I think we still need to hold the people who said that to account. It has certainly created a big gap. Your predecessor as Cabinet Secretary for finance announced the assessment that showed that Wales had lost £1.1 billion. Given that that is still your responsibility, has there been a more recent assessment made, and is there an estimate in terms of the scale of losses by the next general election, in the hope that that will have shrunk?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The £1.1 billion is the amount that we've calculated in terms of the money that we will have lost through the structural funds on the one hand, and the funding coming into rural Wales as well, and that is still true now. We have received some of that funding back, and the next challenge will be to use the new funding that we have in the most effective way possible.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you. And in terms of looking at the new growth fund for Wales, I'm sure that you, like me, welcome the fact that there is a voice for Wales. That wasn't a good situation when it was the UK Government that decided how that was spent. Have you had assurance as a Government and as a Cabinet that you will have full control over that £0.5 billion, and you won't have to have any kind of consent from Westminster in terms of spending that—you will have the flexibility as a Government to invest that?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

We won't have to seek permission from anyone in terms of the use of those funds, but we are going to agree a framework, just like we had a framework when we were in the EU. When we received funding during that time, there was a framework in place, a framework that we'd agreed with the EU in terms of what we could fund using those moneys. It's only fair that we do the same now with the UK Government. But, under that framework, all of the decisions in terms of how we spend the money, how we go about it, the partnerships that we will create to help us to spend that money—all of those responsibilities will be back in our hands here in Wales.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. How will the Cabinet Secretary ensure that all of the Welsh Government's Programme for Government plans will be fully funded by the end of this Senedd? OQ63253

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question. Llywydd, we provided funding for our programme for government commitments up to the end of this Senedd term in the 2025-26 final budget, which was approved by the Senedd in March of this year.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, finance Minister. One of the things that I've undertaken in recent weeks is a visit to the Global Centre of Rail Excellence down in Neath, and this is a programme for government commitment that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee visited, and it was highlighted to us that, obviously, funding is critical to deliver that important project. At the moment, they are existing solely on the funding that has been given by Welsh Government and UK Government, and have not managed to secure any private sector financing. Given that it is a programme for government commitment, has the finance Secretary had any representations from his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that this project is able to reach its potential? And if those requests have not come in, that logically means that, obviously, this programme for government commitment will not be met by the end of the Senedd term.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Government will have spent in full the amount of money that we promised to provide to the Global Centre for Rail Excellence at the same time that the then Conservative Government in Westminster also invested in that centre. Now, what Andrew R.T. Davies says is right, that that money was provided on the premise that, with public investment on the site—a fantastic site and a really compelling prospectus—that private sector investment would arrive to complete that project. For many and complicated reasons, no doubt, that private sector money has yet to materialise. I have, however, received representations from other Cabinet colleagues, and work is going on inside the Welsh Government to see how the project can be further supported.

There's a difficult calculation to be made here, Llywydd, between the degree to which public investment crowds in private investment, and that was the intention in this case—. When does that move into a set of calculations where the private sector wants the public sector to take all the risk onto its shoulders and the private sector only arrives when there are profits to be taken from it? So, these are complex and delicate negotiations that are going on, but the Welsh Government remains convinced of the potential for that site, for the purposes for which the global centre was established. We will want to go on being supportive, provided it is clear that the public investment that is being made has a realistic prospect of having a return on it for the public who make that investment.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Su'mae, everyone.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Shwmae.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Su'mae. I'm proud that this Welsh Government, through the programme for government, ensures public spending benefits the people of Wales and recognises how much our communities rely on strong public services in their everyday lives. Access to well-funded, affordable public transport is essential for our constituents, who rely on it for vital public services, as well as leisure and employment opportunities. The £1 bus fare scheme for under-21s is an excellent example of improving access and opportunity for our young people. Cabinet Secretary, may I ask what funding has been provided to underwrite this important and much valued scheme?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, can I thank Carolyn Thomas for that question? Because it demonstrates the fact that, of course, the programme for government is a living document. It isn't something that is produced in the first year of a term and never developed after that, and the particular item that she points to is one of the strands in the programme for government that has been added to it in the second half of this Senedd term.

The total cost of that one-year pilot will be £22 million, Llywydd. That money has been provided in full as part of our funding of the programme for government. It's split between two financial years: £11.5 million will be made available in the current year, and I confirmed yesterday, in the draft budget, that the £10.5 million that will be needed in next year's budget has been put in the draft budget and is part of the plans that we have for next year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 4, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Shwmae. Although we would never say that in my part of the world, anyway, but—.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's initiatives to make council tax fairer? OQ63242

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Given the fact that you represent Mid and West Wales, I suspect you say every single version of shwmae/su'mae in your region.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Absolutely. But not in Pembrokeshire.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, we recognise the missionary work that the Member undertakes in her region on this subject.

And in relation to her question, for over a decade, successive Welsh Labour Governments have acted to mitigate the inherent unfairness of council tax. We’ve exempted care leavers from the tax, abolished imprisonment as a punishment for falling into arrears, and, by the end of this term, will have modernised the appeals process, rationalised the discounts and exemption system, and made enforcement fairer too.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. It's hard to believe that it took until 2019 to cease to imprison people for non-payment of council tax; and Wales, of course, abolished that practice in 2019. The threat and the reality of imprisonment, of course, like most things, fell more sharply on women than it did on men. I would be interested in any analysis that's been undertaken of the continuing impact of imprisonment where that still does take place, and contrary, where it doesn't take place, like in Wales, whether the evidence is demonstrating the positive impact that that change has had on what we obviously will know would be the poorest women in Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I thank Joyce Watson for that important supplementary question. I well remember her strong support for the abolition of imprisonment for non-payment of council tax at the time that that was undertaken back in 2019, and, you know, it's part of the distinguished record she has of speaking up on women's issues here in the Senedd.

What we know is that, in the period since imprisonment was abolished here, 81 people have been imprisoned in England—at least—in that period. England is the only part of the United Kingdom where you can still be imprisoned for that failure. And, in England, a further 2,170 people have received suspended committal orders, which takes you right to the brink of imprisonment at that point. And, of course, Joyce Watson is absolutely right, Llywydd, that women were more likely to be imprisoned for that failure.

I absolutely believe myself, in the current state of the criminal justice system and the prison estate, that the people who end up in prison should be those people that the public really does need to be protected from. I'm absolutely convinced that failure to pay their council tax is not something that places other members of the public at risk.

Women are over-represented amongst those people because of their financial vulnerability, care-giving responsibilities and, often, experience of domestic abuse that leaves them with a liability for the council tax. So, not only have we done a good thing here in Wales in general, but I hope that that measure has had a particularly positive impact on those women who would otherwise be caught up in it.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Shwmae i chi i gyd.

Cabinet Secretary, in England, council tax rises are making the headlines because local authorities, as we know, are pushing up toward the cap of 5 per cent; they're already announcing that. However, in Wales, many residents can only imagine a 5 per cent increase. In my own constituency, for instance, last year, council tax rose by 7.9 per cent, following a previous year of 7.8 per cent, and a previous year to that of just fractionally under 6 per cent. These huge increases are putting a real pressure on families, especially at this time, when they're dealing with the costs of living and the challenges that go with that.

So, Cabinet Secretary, why is it fair that councils in Wales have the power to raise council tax so drastically, while councils in England, also under Labour control, are legally restricted from raising them past 5 per cent without that referendum?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, simply because here in Wales, we have taken the view that it is for local authorities, councillors directly elected by their populations, to exercise the responsibility for council tax, and for those decisions not to be made here in Cardiff Bay, and I stand by that. I still think that that is the democratically right way to do things. Local authorities are responsible; they face their electorates on the basis of the decisions that they themselves have made. The Member suggests that people in Wales look enviously at what happens in England. I can assure him that, in England, where there is no council tax reduction scheme, and where the very poorest people now have to pay every year towards a council tax, that those people look at Wales and see the help that is available here to people who otherwise would find themselves in such difficulty.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

5. How is the Government encouraging the public sector to procure from Welsh businesses? OQ63259

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much to Peredur for that question, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that public procurement delivers maximum value for Wales, economically, socially, environmentally and culturally. We recognise the power of procurement as a tool to support Welsh businesses, which is why we have introduced a programme of procurement reform to make public contracts more accessible.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Improving public procurement levels can be a huge driver for boosting the economy. It's highly regrettable, therefore, that the Labour Government has shied away from setting targets for public procurement. This was the case throughout my scrutiny work on the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, as it is now—the Bill as it was then. As my Plaid Cymru colleague Luke Fletcher has pointed out in his economic plan, 'Making Wales Work', public procurement was used to great effect by Preston City Council. They implemented a strategy that increased the procurement spend of key anchor institutions with local and regional suppliers from less than 40 per cent to around 80 per cent. This led to the creation of 4,000 new living wage jobs, and helped to lift the city out of the 20 per cent most deprived areas in the UK, with unemployment also falling below the national average. This could be replicated on a larger scale within Wales to deliver even greater benefits for the nation and job creation. Do you agree with Plaid Cymru that public procurement can be an effective tool for boosting the local economy, particularly the fortunes of SMEs, and do you also think that there was a missed opportunity by your Government to do something about Wales's low public procurement levels in this Senedd?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I agree with the Member's first proposition and I disagree with the second.

Of course it is true that we want to achieve full value from every £1 used by public authorities in Wales. I'm very familiar with the Preston example. I had an opportunity to hear more than once from the leader of the council at the time about the work that they did. Where I don't agree with the Member is that the way to do that is by a blunt, target-driven regime. In my experience, targets need to be used sparingly and smartly. If they're used in a blunt and blanket way, what they really do is just drive perverse behaviours in the system, in which people focus on achieving the target rather than achieving the aim for which the target was established.

So, we have changed the law here in Wales through the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, and the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Act 2024. Those make changes to the way in which opportunities are advertised for small and medium-sized businesses in Wales, reorganise the procurement pipeline to make sure that those opportunities are known about early in the process, simplify the bidding system, and extend the prompt payment system here in Wales.

I think we would all here want to ensure that Welsh businesses have the maximum opportunities to bid for the opportunities that come through the public procurement route. That's what we are focused on. There is more change to come, further regulations flowing from the social partnership Act particularly, and I look forward to bringing those in front of the Senedd.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Before I begin, I would like to wish you and the Cabinet Secretary and everyone celebrating, on behalf of everyone in Wales, and south-east Wales particularly, who were perhaps born here, who work here, were raised here like myself, aap sab ko, hum sab ki taraf se, dil se, Shwmae Day ki dhair sari shub kamniyeh, which means a heartfelt Shwmae Day, I should say, well wishes from myself and everyone else I represent. So, thank you very much.

Cabinet Secretary, unlike Labour and Plaid Cymru, who shamefully voted down our calls to back our farmers by scrapping the sustainable farming scheme, the Welsh Conservatives are firmly on the side of hard-working farmers. Farmers right across Wales produce, I would argue, some of the greatest tasting food around, which is also healthy, nutritious and sustainable. It is evident that our farmers need our support. One way the Welsh Government can do something is by ensuring that their fantastic Welsh produce is served in our hospitals and schools and elsewhere across the public sector. So, Cabinet Secretary, would you kindly outline what proactive steps the Welsh Government is taking to increase the use of our wonderful Welsh food within the public sector itself? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, thank you very much to Natasha Asghar.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Welsh language belongs to us all.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Welsh language belongs to us all. It's been great to hear people using it around the Chamber this afternoon.

I was lucky enough to be in the Chamber, I think only a week ago, when I heard the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for supporting the agricultural sector, and the excellent work that it does in food and drink, explaining to Members how the scheme that he has agreed will underpin that industry for the future. The food and drink sector in Wales is a huge success story, with major growth over the last few years, and an enormous range now of really quality products, which are sold not just here in Wales, but around the world.

We do need to do more to make sure that those products are used where public food is being procured. I'm familiar with some of the experiments that have been conducted in Carmarthenshire, for example, involving the local health board and suppliers of food and drink. There are some challenges along the way, but they are things for us to solve, rather than just to identify. When we do that, we will make sure, not simply that the public pound is going further, but that the quality of food and drink supplied will be of the standard that we know the industry in Wales produces.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Shwmae, Llywydd, and shwmae, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. The power of the public purse procurement is one of the key levers we have here in Wales to effect the change in economic, social and environmental outcomes we want to see. And, of course, as touched on earlier, we now have two pieces of key legislation covering procurement in Wales, including the landmark Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. The commencement Order for the procurement part of that legislation came into effect this year. So, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary, if you can outline the steps that the Welsh Government is taking to strengthen public procurement following the passage of the Act? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Hannah Blythyn for that, Llywydd. I remember very well that, when that Act began its journey through the Welsh Government and towards the Senedd, it was always known internally simply as the 'social partnership Act', and it was the work that the Member did in being in charge of that Bill that turned it into the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill—a really major new strand in that work. And the Member is right: the Act is being implemented; there are more implementation regulations to come in front of this Senedd. The implementation of those aspects of the Act that are already in operation also coincide with the implementation of the Procurement Act 2003, a UK Act, but which has significant impact here in Wales. The sector has had to get used to some of the new ways in which those Acts, together, place requirements on them. And it is true that, in the very early months, some organisations were taking a while to get used to the new portals and the new requirements. But in more recent months, we've seen an increase in the number of businesses using those arrangements, the number of opportunities available to them, and I'm confident that, as we place this very important part of the public sector on that new footing, doing all the things that I was able to outline in my original answer, that we will see the strongly positive benefits that will come to Wales as a result of the work that others, but particularly the Member for Delyn was involved in bringing about.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

6. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to increasing financial support for hospices in preparing the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2026-27? OQ63247

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The outline draft budget published yesterday provided an inflationary uplift for all areas of the Welsh Government. Our full spending plans will be published on 3 November.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Hospices across Wales provide vital care and support to people with life-limiting and terminal illnesses and to the families who care for them. I recently had the pleasure of visiting Nightingale House Hospice in Wrexham, who, as you will know, deliver high-quality palliative and end-of-life care, helping patients to live with dignity and comfort, often in the most challenging circumstances. It's a great example of what hospices up and down Wales do day in and day out. But we know that hospices like Nightingale are under significant financial pressure. There are rising costs, increased demand and ongoing workforce challenges putting huge strain on these services. But we also know that hospices support our NHS and health services by taking the burden away from them, both financially and practically. I appreciate your response in terms of the formal publication of the draft budget, but I wonder how you consider the role of hospices in supporting our broader NHS, in particular from a financial perspective, in being able to deliver these services, and from a charity perspective, perhaps with more value for money at times as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I don't dissent from anything the Member has said about the importance of hospices and the work that they do. He's right; I have had an opportunity in the past to visit the Nightingale hospice in Wrexham with the Member for Wrexham, when I was the health Minister and she had just ceased to be so. Just to be clear, though, Llywydd, this isn't the first time, slightly to my surprise, this afternoon that I've had to explain that I'm the finance Minister, not the health Minister or the housing Minister or the education Minister, and the many questions that come in that way. I can say to the Member that in this Senedd term, investment in hospices has increased substantially. That includes an additional £5.2 million every year to the hospice sector and more than £9.5 million in one-off grants. The person who will be making those decisions, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, is meeting with hospice leaders on 6 November to discuss the challenges that the sector faces. The detail of how the draft budget will provide for the sector will be known to Members on 3 November, when the more detailed budget lines in the draft budget are published and available to Members.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the collection of land transaction tax? OQ63237

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Peter Fox for that, Llywydd. Land transaction tax brings significant revenue to the Welsh Government. It is forecast to raise £401 million in 2026-27.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that. I think land transaction tax is inherently a repressive tax, which does nothing really but to stifle opportunity and aspiration in many young people. The fact is that in Chepstow—let's concentrate on Chepstow—a hard-working family buying their first house can end up paying around £5,000 more, on average, than they would do if that house was just over the border, where in England they would pay nothing for that type of house. So, this tax is putting up a real barrier to home ownership in Monmouthshire for young people.

I'm proud that the Conservatives have pledged to abolish stamp duty in England, and we have pledged that we would do the same here if we could. I know the stock response will probably be that families do not have to pay land transaction tax on properties up to £225,000 in Wales, but that's little help to young people in Monmouthshire, because you will not find a house for £225,000 in Monmouthshire. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you understand why young families looking to start a life in Monmouthshire feel that they are being punished for living in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

As the Member knows, and he quoted the figure himself, you don't pay land transaction tax at all in Wales on a property bought for less than £225,000. The equivalent in England is £125,000. I know there are some special arrangements for first-time buyers, and I understand the point he makes. House prices are different in different parts of Wales, but I can't set a land transaction tax for each county. I have to set it for the whole of Wales, and the level we set it at, £225,000, means that six out of 10 transactions in Wales pay no tax at all. So, well over half of transactions in Wales pay no tax and well over half of the transactions in England do pay tax.

You can look over the border in one way and say people would rather be over there, but actually, our system is not a regressive system in Wales. Our system means that those who need help get it and those who are able to pay the tax are asked to do so. We keep it under review every year, whether that threshold is in the right place, whether there's more that we might be able to do. But in the draft budget, as you will have seen, the threshold stays at £225,000. Without it, the forecast revenues of £401 million would inevitably be reduced, and that will be less money to do all the other things—the help for hospices that Peter Fox’s colleague just asked about and all the other things that we know, here in the Chamber, we would like to do more of for Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8. Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

8. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to ensure that Welsh-language provision is accessible to first-language Welsh-speakers in the health care system? OQ63256

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you, Heledd Fychan, for that question. Llywydd, as I said earlier, Cymraeg belongs to us all, as does the responsibility for its future. That means all of us in the Cabinet. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is responsible for 'More than just words', which recognises how fundamental the language is in delivering equitable, safe and person-centred healthcare.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much. I agree with you about 'More than just words', which is a very important report, but a report by the Stroke Association on the experiences of Welsh speakers with aphasia draws attention to the serious barriers that Welsh-speaking stroke survivors face when trying to obtain speech and language therapy through the medium of Welsh. This does breach the principles of 'More than just words', the strategic framework. In light of these findings, what action is the Cabinet Secretary taking, in collaboration with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, to ensure fair and equitable access to speech and language therapy in Welsh for stroke survivors and people with aphasia throughout Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much for that important question. People accessing stroke services are also a priority in 'More than just words'. The Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists do support this agenda, and bilingual training is provided. Cardiff and Wrexham universities provide degrees in speech and language therapy, and there is a bursary available from Health Education and Improvement Wales for students who commit to working in Wales for two years having completed their studies. There are Welsh-speaking students in every year of the course, and Health Education and Improvement Wales has commissioned a Welsh-medium speech and language therapy course at Wrexham University in order to support speech and language therapy across Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs will be answering the next questions, under item 2, and the first question is from Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

1. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the environmental and ecological impact of pylon development across Wales? OQ63243

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

We recognise the importance of energy distribution infrastructure to support new large-scale renewable energy developments to achieve our net-zero commitments and give people access to clean heat and transport. The environmental and ecological impacts of a proposal requiring planning permission are material considerations in the decision-making process.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, you will be aware of concerns about the potential impact of energy infrastructure projects in mid Wales, and I would like to ask how we assess the cumulative environmental impact in particular. Individual projects are subject, of course, to environmental impact assessments, but there's a lack of a joined-up approach when it comes to assessing the combined pressures that multiple developments may have on habitats, biodiversity, landscapes and communities. There's a risk of creating environmental blind spots, perhaps risking cumulative impacts on ecosystems, species displacement and the deterioration of natural landscape areas. We also risk overlooking local environmental knowledge and the concerns of communities and the way it affects them. Without a strategic and holistic evaluation, it is difficult to understand the true scale of the environmental impact that may be caused. Given these concerns, what assessment is Welsh Government undertaking of the cumulative environmental and ecological impacts of pylon development across Wales, and how can we ensure that future projects consider the combined effects of multiple energy developments within a given area?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Cefin. You'll understand that I can't comment on individual projects, as it's possible that Welsh Ministers might have a role in their determination. But we do know, and it's worth reminding ourselves as the Senedd Chamber, that we anticipate that Wales's electricity demand will probably double, and may indeed triple, by 2050, because of our transition towards net zero and decarbonisation. So, updating the grid is essential if we're going to have an energy system fit for purpose in the long term, and also that it reaches all parts of Wales, both supply and demand. But you will know that we've also convened the independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales, looking at work on possible approaches to deliver that infrastructure, including considering the environmental impacts of electricity lines in Wales.

You touch on the policy framework. First of all, 'Future Wales: the National Plan 2040' sets out the national-scale policies for renewable energy. Policy 17 of 'Future Wales' emphasises the importance of proposals identifying net benefits the scheme may bring in terms of—and this is particularly pertinent in terms of the well-being of future generations Act—not just the economic but the social, environmental and cultural aspects for local communities.

You rightly ask how we look at this going forward, because Wales does indeed play its part in terms of electricity generation here. The Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 provides an up-to-date decision-making process for significant infrastructure projects in Wales, which is informed by engagement with the public and other stakeholders, and that will come into force by the end of this year, of course. Cumulative impact of development, including development consented under the nationally significant infrastructure project process, is a material consideration in the determination of an application under that regime.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Su'mae. In Wales, we have the most beautiful countryside. I believe this should be cherished and protected. The original question refers to pylon development. I've spoken with organisations on both sides, and I've also read the survey launched on pylons by Countryside Alliance. Ninety-three per cent of respondents were strongly opposed to pylon construction in their area, 81 per cent of businesses saw no benefit from the construction of more pylons, and 96 per cent of people raised concerns about environmental damage from pylon construction.

These pylons are a risk to our natural environment. They are a risk to our wetlands. Certain birds, such as swans and geese, have poor vision when they are flying—this is from the RSPB—as well as birds of prey, which can be electrocuted by perching on pylon poles. There are numerous reasons why we should really be having a mandate that says 'no pylon construction unless absolutely necessary'—no other way possible. There's no reason why they can't go underground. It takes seven years to recoup the cost, and then you've got your underground works in, and everybody is happy.

With this in mind, will you, Cabinet Secretary, please look at bringing forward some kind of mandate for electricity cables to be placed under the ground, and again for pylons to be used as a last resort? Let's not ruin our countryside—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I've been very generous. You did come to your question, and then you decided to start all over again. So, the Minister to respond.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you very much.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You're welcome.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Shwmae to you as well, Janet.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you for the question. First of all, to refer to the previous answer I gave, we've actually put in place the independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales. They're looking at possible approaches to delivering the electricity network. But I come back to the point that this isn't simply a question of energy generation, it's energy supply as well, to all those parts of Wales that need it. In some ways, we're going to need to get that electricity to and from all of these areas, including those areas that need economic development that relies on an electricity grid.

I've said—and you know as well; you're a member of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee—our electricity demand is going to double and possibly triple by 2050. So, I think we all have to seriously wrestle with these issues. And what we certainly don't need, Llywydd, is any approach where the consensus that we've seemed to establish over the last 20 years, since, indeed, the 1990 appearance of a certain Margaret Thatcher at a UN convention to say we need to tackle climate change, we need to be committed to actually dealing with decarbonisation—. To see one party now walking away from that is a real disappointment, I have to say.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. What progress has the Welsh Government made on implementing the recommendations in the National Infrastructure Commission Wales report on Floods, published in October 2024? OQ63236

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Heledd. I published the formal response to the report on 17 April 2025. We have been working with stakeholders on implementation and we are assessing delivery timelines in line with our response. I will provide a written statement in the spring, outlining progress made and realistic timelines for delivery.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much for that response.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I really appreciate that. I think communities that I represent will really welcome seeing that set out in terms of the timetable, because, obviously, the specific recommendations that concern them are around community flood groups and exploring the possibility of a national flood forum. We discussed some of this last week, during your statement, and I think we both agreed that local activists are key to these developments. But additional funding is required to ensure this work is resourced. We know that Natural Resources Wales have very few staff members working on this. So, as we face another winter, knowing that some communities are currently more vulnerable than others, will you commit to reviewing the risk factor in these communities to ensure resources are targeted and prioritised to support them to organise local flood resilience groups?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I think that issue of targeting and prioritising is absolutely the line, because we've always made clear we'll never have sufficient funding, nor should we try to defend every inch of either every coastline or every valley community—we simply wouldn't be able to do it. Sometimes, using natural processes is the way to do it, including the upstream interventions as well. But in terms of community engagement and the work of the National Flood Forum, we very much value the work that they're currently doing in Wales. We've managed to find—including in communities that you and I have visited together—funding to help support their work within those communities where there is a real crying need.

Now, going forward, I am pleased to confirm that we're working with the National Flood Forum to establish how their services can be used on a wider Wales basis. But as opposed to necessarily leaping into saying, 'Let's have a Wales national flood forum', we're trying to explore what is the best way and the most efficient and effective way to actually do that going forward. So, we're working with them on that. The other thing, of course, is to flag up the NRW-run volunteer network support events across Wales that are happening as well, including as we run into the autumn and winter period, because that can advise community groups, then, on completion of testing of things such as community networks, community flood plans, enabling communities themselves to be more proactive and resilient. So, I would definitely draw—and I would ask all Members of the Senedd to draw—communities' attention to the National Flood Forum local resilience forum, which is on NRW's website, which has some really good information about how to prepare now and how to actually recover from flooding as well.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Shwmae. Cabinet Secretary, the flood and coastal erosion committee has endorsed the creation of regional and local catchment partnerships by the end of this year to support a systematic and integrated catchment and coastal management approach. We have corresponded in the past about flooding issues at Caer Castell House in Brackla. Despite multiple tripartite meetings, the issues with the culvert have not been resolved and the properties were flooded once again. I have failed to get any sensible resolution from Network Rail or the local authorities. Cabinet Secretary, do you believe local catchment partnerships will be able to resolve issues such as those faced by the residents of Brackla and ensure that buck passing does not leave residents at the mercy of unchecked floodwaters?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed, Altaf, thank you for that, and my sympathy goes out to those and all other members of communities across Wales who are now being affected more frequently, actually, with flooding. And it can be river flooding, flash flooding, it can actually be surface water flooding or a combination of all of these, or indeed coastal ingress as well. My sympathy goes out to them—I've met with many and spoken with them, and talked about the way forward as well.

The resolution for this lies in Welsh Government putting its money where its mouth is. And we do that—we now have record funding going in, not just in the major investments like we've seen in Stephenson Street in Newport, but actually working with local authorities, putting the money into them, so that they can, on a street by street level, and a property by property level, work with those residents as well. I'm pleased we've been able to assist in that case, but the solution then needs to lie with that local resilience forum, the local authority and others, working with the local community. That's where the secret lies. But for our role as Welsh Government, and this Senedd, we need to will the means that we keep on putting the record investment into the national approach to flood defence.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Deputy First Minister, we know many communities in Wales have been impacted in recent years by flooding incidents, including in Mold in my own constituency. So, as we head into the winter months, and the anticipation of more extreme weather, do you agree with me about the importance of having as many people as possible signed up to Natural Resources Wales's flood warning system? And in order to tackle further flooding, and flooding in the future, a number of flood defence schemes have been built right across Wales, including across the north Wales coast. Deputy First Minister, you were in Rhyl just last week to mark the investment there following on from the coastal defence project to protect thousands of Prestatyn homes. Therefore, can I ask: what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the importance of maintaining the capital budget for flood defences? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Hannah. I was delighted to be up in north Wales last week, I think it was, opening what I think was the final instalment of the biggest single investment in the whole of Wales. It's over £100 million in total, and it is hundreds upon hundreds of properties, and businesses as well, allowing the families to be safe in their homes and to carry on with their lives and those businesses to thrive and invest and grow.

But that's not all that we do, as you say. We've also invested over £60 million in a new modern flood alert system, and this is the time of the year where we actually promote 'be flood alert'. We need people to sign up. I'm signed up. I need everybody to sign up, because we know that it's not only happening in those areas where we've seen floods happening every few years; it's now happening in places that are unexpected through flash flooding or street flooding. Now, on that basis, please, please sign up—and I'd ask all Members to push this to their constituents—and be flood alert. You can then get the flood warnings, the heightened flood warnings and the flood alerts as well. And there is also information on the NRW site about how to respond to those flood warnings and alerts. So, Hannah, thank you so much for raising this. It's vital we get more people signed up to it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy First Minister, following the well-founded concerns in the agricultural industry over its future, there are now reports that the UK Government may raise the inheritance tax thresholds for farmers, but, potentially, at the cost of a cut to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs budget, possibly impacting agricultural funding here in Wales. However, Welsh farmers remain deeply anxious about the family farm tax. This Chamber has heard distressing stories, including one farmer who stopped cancer treatment, hoping they'd die before the changes come into effect, and cases such as the Cornock family in Pembrokeshire, where Janet Cornock said:

'We simply do not have the cashflow to pay this substantial and unexpected tax bill when all of the value of our business is tied up in the farm and its assets.'

So, while a possible u-turn from UK Labour may bring relief, we still don't know the Welsh Government's stance on changes to agricultural property relief and business property relief. So, Deputy First Minister, what is your position on the family farm tax, and will you publish all correspondence with the UK Government, so that Welsh farmers can see what representations have been made on their behalf?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Sam. I'm aware of the speculation in the media, which seems to be rife at the moment, on possible changes to proposals, but it is speculation. I have no greater insight into the Treasury's plans than any other Member or citizen here does. The Treasury are notoriously tight-lipped on what they actually put out there. They'll do that when they get to about five or six weeks to the actual statement they'll bring forward on the floor of the House of Commons.

But meanwhile, we do continue to support farmers through those challenges that you rightly said. I've met with many of the farmers who've expressed the range of pressures that are currently facing them. We are providing, through Farming Connect, facilitated family succession meetings, succession reviews to understand IHT implications as they're currently laid out, and also subsidised business and legal advice to develop succession plans. We are also cognisant of the advice that is being provided through the farming unions as well.

So, rather than comment on speculation, let me just say—for complete clarity, because I have said it before, Sam, as well—we've had several items of correspondence where we've been in touch with UK Government on this issue, and also have raised it repeatedly in inter-ministerial group discussions as well, and in bilaterals. In our latest letter, which went off in September, if I recall correctly, it stressed the importance of the work that we're doing with the sustainable farming scheme—focused on small, medium-scale family farms within Wales and the future viability of those—and that nothing should disrupt that. It also made clear that we'd want them to engage with some of the considered advice and information that was being put forward by not just the farming unions, but others more recently as well that suggests, with nuancing, there could be adjustments made that could work. But it is a Treasury decision, it is a reserved decision. But we've made very clear, as I'm happy to do again, exactly what our position is here in Welsh Government.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

You say that, but this Welsh Government was quite happy to give opinions on reserved matters under a Conservative UK Government. Yet, we've not heard again today, when given the opportunity, what this Welsh Labour Government believes around the family farms tax. That would have been really welcome. Farmers watching this now will be left in the dark as to whether this Welsh Government has supported them in discussions with UK Treasury.

Linked to the wider challenges facing rural communities, there is still another cloud of bovine TB cast over Welsh agriculture. Yet, I will give credit, there is some hope through the Pembrokeshire project, something that I helped launch, which participating farmers have strongly supported. We also have the technical advisory group examining wider scientific evidence. Under new rules, inconclusive reactor cattle can only move under licence to slaughter or to approved finishing units, something that has been welcomed by the industry. But despite this, the number of cattle slaughtered in Wales remains painfully high, leaving many farmers trapped in ongoing restrictions.

With the draft budget now before the Senedd, what discussions are you having with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to guarantee, firstly, the long-term funding for the Pembrokeshire project and its sister project in north Wales, as well as ensuring adequate compensation for farmers required to cull their livestock due to bovine TB?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Sam, thank you very much. Firstly, just to say, there's no lack of clarity from me on our approach to IHT, APR and other tax implications for farms. We have actually made clear that things such as the CenTax assessment and the Central Association of Agricultural Valuers's assessment in particular have raised possible solutions to some of the concerns being raised and we have suggested that the Treasury should take them into account in their assessment of the impact, and that this should be addressed in a collaborative way with the farming unions. So, there's no lack of clarity on that.

In terms of TB, thank you for your support for the Pembrokeshire project. There was some scepticism around this initially, whether this could work, but actually those farmers, as you know in your area, who are involved in it are quite evangelical about it, and the way that it gives autonomy to the farmer, with their trusted on-farm vet, to make decisions affecting their business and also the health and well-being of their herd as well. That's why we have indeed now rolled out a version of it to north Wales, on demand, because people now are persuaded that this is the way forward.

What I've put forward in the budget that was laid by the Cabinet Secretary yesterday is again an attempt to have continuity across a range of issues, including animal health and welfare, as well as farm stability going forward. What I can't do is actually prophesise what the next Government will actually do. We need to get beyond the budget of the Chancellor in the UK, we need to determine our own budget here, and we'll be looking for support, please, right across the Chamber for that budget, not just for farming but for the protection of public services as well. But, look, my commitment is there, because we've rolled the scheme out further in Wales at cost, so we have faith in this scheme, in that this is one of the ways in which we can deliver improvements within TB.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that, Deputy First Minister. But speaking to those farmers taking part in the Pembrokeshire project, while they are evangelical, as you say, as to the role that they can play with their vets, they still believe that there is one arm tied behind their back in tackling this, due to the reservoir of the disease within wildlife.

But continuing on the theme of evidence-based policy making, it's vital that we truly follow the science, and that must include the nitrate vulnerable zones regulations, because today, 15 October, marks the start of the closed period for spreading on grassland under those rules despite the dry weather, perfectly illustrating the absurdity of a farming-by-calendar approach. Dr Susannah Bolton's review was a welcome step forward, but it largely confirmed what farmers have said from the beginning—that the current system simply doesn't work in practice. We all know this, we've said it since the very beginning, so with fewer than seven months until the next Senedd election, will you act now to enable those recommendations to become true, or will Welsh farmers have to wait until the next Welsh Government to deliver the practical reforms needed to support agriculture?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Sam, for that question. It's a really important question, and in case anybody is cutting and clipping these pieces for social media, and for complete clarity, Llywydd, we are setting up the task and finish group to take forward those recommendations. Dr Susannah Bolton produced her work in March. We've been landing the SFS and other issues since then, but we've been working over the summer, actually, doing some of the preparatory work to take forward these recommendations. We've made clear, as the Welsh Government, in the statement that I published earlier this year, that we would accept and take forward all the recommendations, and we would take forward those recommendations at pace, and we would do it with all stakeholders involved.

So, the task and finish group is under way and preparatory work has already been done. I'm hoping to bring forward some additional news once we have the group established, and we've got the terms of reference as well, to say something further to the Senedd at that point. But can I just be clear in terms of the closed period, because Susannah Bolton does rightly say there is some scope here to look at alternative ways forward? But she also says that, as we currently stand, you should definitely not take away what's currently in place until you have evidence-based approaches for alternative ways forward, and she is right in saying that. So, this does cause difficulty currently for some farmers. We're keen to work through that in the autumn and winter ahead, but, actually, she also makes clear that if we go to alternative solutions, then they may be more complex, they may be more challenging to explain. But I'm willing to take that on, because I think the potential for seeing other ways forward, if we can evidence them, is well worth taking forward. So, we're taking it forward, Sam.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. There are concerns, aren't there, Cabinet Secretary, about reduced livestock numbers. They've been on a downward trajectory for many years, and, of course, the impact assessment of the SFS last week suggested that that's likely to continue. Now, there are clear knock-on effects from that to the wider food economy, especially abattoirs and processors, many of whom are already struggling in terms of throughput and viability. Hybu Cig Cymru has shown how we've lost, I think, over half of our abattoirs in the last 25 years. We have, I think, just five that are officially classified as small left here in Wales. Now, many have warned, of course, that the sector is potentially facing collapse if things don't change, and that would mean not just the economic impact, but an impact on the whole effort of creating resilient local food systems, which is something we all want to grow and develop, but also an increase in food miles, which brings with it environmental and animal welfare consequences as well. So, can I ask what assessment the Government has made of the state of the Welsh abattoir sector and the potential impact of further closures, and, indeed, what strategy you have in place to address the impact of falling livestock numbers on the wider food economy?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Llyr. Look, first of all, it's worth acknowledging that this is a real issue, but it's not a recent issue either. This has been happening for many, many years, and there are a number of factors around why it's been happening, and it's been happening not just in Wales, but in western Europe and wider afield. But I wouldn't want to talk up the risk of this. I think what is needed is a piece of work that looks at what are the multiple ways in which we address this, so that we can deliver, exactly as you say, more food not only for export. I've just come back from Anuga in Cologne, the biggest trade expo. The success of our Welsh lamb and red meat sector—beef and lamb—is amazing as export. We need more on plates here as well, to help maintain those through-lines within our processing. Now, we can do that through procurement, without a doubt, and we've already evolved ways in which we can do better with procurement in our schools, hospitals, prisons, et cetera, within the public estate. There's also more we can do based on the community food strategy, as well, which is also based on those local food networks. So, I think there is a piece of work in here. The additional thing, Llyr, I would say very strongly, is that it's partly to do with livestock numbers, and it's also, for farmers, to do with productivity and efficiency—putting less in and getting more out of the value of that animal when it gets to market. For our farmers, what I consistently hear from them is, 'How do you help us do that?'. Now, I think SFS has a role to play, but there are other ways in which we can provide that support—so, more efficiency and more productivity in the sector as well.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, thank you for that response. I mean, you rightly acknowledge that this isn't a new problem, and then you say that there's a job of work that's needed. Well, maybe that work should be under way already, given that we know what the trajectory is.

But I'll move on to milk, if I may, because you know that milk producers have been notified of significant milk price cuts—some of up to 18 per cent—coming in November. And that comes, of course, on top of a number of already existing challenges, such as the hot, dry summer we've had, which has reduced forage availability, and we know about TB, we know about the issues around the NVZ regulations, et cetera. Now, whilst price drops have been driven, largely, of course, by global market forces, this now, I think, is going to be the first real test of the new Fair Dealing Obligations (Milk) Regulations 2024 that came into force this year to improve price transparency and fairness in dairy contracts. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has appointed, of course, an adjudicator to oversee the functioning of these regulations and to investigate any complaints, and we know from experience, don't we, that worse behaviour happens in a supply chain when the market goes downwards, very often. So, will you as a Government be monitoring the dairy market and proactively, maybe, raising concerns about bad or discriminatory behaviour by processors in relation to Welsh dairy farmers? And, given that exports are crucial to helping to balance the UK market, how will your Government be working to try and ramp up the promotion of Welsh dairy exports?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Absolutely. I mentioned that I've just come back from Anuga on that last point. Our dairy products in the export market are a rip-roaring success. It would be wrong of me to name them, but it was an eye-opening moment when I sat down with a north Wales dairy producer, who was sitting down with the largest US import one, who they already have a relationship with, and were talking about expanding the exports. And they weren't alone—they were far from alone. And the other interesting thing, Llywydd, is the envy from other parts of the UK about the support that we provide, through the Welsh Government and our food division, to actually help them be at those places, making the connections and working with them. We are the envy of other nations.

But you raise a very important thing in terms of milk price. Milk price fluctuates over time. At the moment, it's going down, and, in which case, this is absolutely a test now of some of the food suppliers out there who, over the years, have done better to stand with our farmers and actually deliver those longer term contracts with price stability. But not everybody is in those. So, this is an opportunity here, I think, to see how the adjudicator steps up here to make sure that there aren't negativities in the market that impact on primary producers. And it is something that I'll be raising in discussion with the UK Minister, who I think I have a meeting with either this week or next week—it could be even this week. But I'll be raising this with her as well, because we want to see this on a UK level, with those big supply chains, and, actually, let's get the fair play for our farmers, and the supply chain needs to stand by our farmers through these times when prices dip.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you. Another important part of our food and drink sector, of course, is our fisheries sector, and recent research by Oceana UK has raised serious concerns about the state of fish stocks around the UK, including in Welsh waters, of course. And not only is that an environmental issue, it's also about the sustainability of our domestic fleet and, of course, the future of the Welsh seafood sector. The Irish sea is now the worst affected area in the UK; only a third of stocks are in a healthy condition, down from over 40 per cent just two years ago. And in the Celtic sea, the picture is similarly bleak. Now, these figures point to a systemic failure in fisheries management and a growing threat to the viability of our Welsh fishing fleet and the communities that depend upon the sector. So, will the Government commit to action to safeguard the future of the Welsh fish supper, and what steps are you taking to protect Welsh fish stocks whilst ensuring, of course, the long-term sustainability of our Welsh fishing fleet?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you. I'm so pleased we have a question on fisheries in this session, because we don't have them often enough. We have a distinctive Welsh fisheries fleet, and much of it is a sustainable fishery. Part of the reason for that is because we base our approach in Wales on fisheries management plans, which are embedded within sustainability. We want to make sure that we have sustainable yields being taken, so that the stocks can replenish themselves in different types of fisheries as well. So, we'll keep on taking that approach, going forward.

The fisheries management plans are on track. The ones that we said we would deliver, we've delivered. And we will keep on, also, Llyr, working with—. It's different here in Wales than it is in DEFRA. In DEFRA, they have large teams of people, and they can rely on Seafish and on others. What we do is we work directly with our universities, including Bangor University and others, with their expertise, to make sure we are delivering sustainable fisheries. This also rams home why we cannot be in a situation where we overfish. We have to get that balance right that protects the livelihoods of fishers, but also the sustainability of our marine environment and those fish stocks.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the task and finish group that will respond to the recommendations of the review of the control of agricultural pollution regulations? OQ63261

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, again, Llyr. The establishment of a technical task and finish group demonstrates the Welsh Government’s commitment to working collaboratively with all relevant stakeholders to improve the regulations for both farmers and environmental outcomes. My officials will be issuing an invitation for expressions of interest for membership in the coming days.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Diolch. We know that the closed period under the water pollution regulations, of course, starts today. Last year, the wet weather running up to that moment caused all sorts of problems, didn't it, and, ironically, straight afterwards, it was dry for a long period, which goes to show that farming by calendar is the wrong approach. And this year, the seriously hot and dry spring and summer that we've had have had implications for silage, and lots of farmers are now holding out for a late cut of silage and can't empty their slurry stores as a consequences, which again shows that farmers don't farm by calendar; they farm according to the seasons. Plaid Cymru voted against the NVZ regulations a few years ago because of these kinds of examples. The Bolton review has, as well, as we've heard already this afternoon, suggested a move away from the farming-by-calendar approach, and interestingly, in reference to the task and finish group, you said that you'd been asking them to move at pace to look at this. So, is it your hope, therefore, that this will actually be the last year where we have a farming-by-calendar approach, and do you expect that this year's closed period relating to dates on a calendar will be gone next year?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Llyr. Susannah Bolton made very clear that there were some issues in this that were more complex and will need more evidence than others, and this was one of them. I think we're in danger here, if we rush to this and we suddenly withdraw the closed-period approach, because she actually says that that closed period needs to stay in place until there are evidenced, workable alternative solutions. But she points to the fact that there could be evidenced, workable solutions. It'll need all stakeholders to step up with the will to actually evidence those, to see if they can work.

You asked me for timescales on this. I think this is exactly what we should be saying to the task and finish group: 'Give us the nitty-gritty, the milestones, the timescale for setting it out.' I think we can do some things in the very short term. Other things will be medium and longer term. We should leave it to them to actually work through this, and do it at pace. That's the thing.

The closed period, I realise, will put stresses on the farmers. I've met with both the farming unions this week, and it's been raised with me in both of those meetings, and by other farming representatives as well. We are constantly in discussion with the arm's-length body and NRW about how they can give advice on farms, and guidance, and work collaboratively. But, where there are clear breaches, they are the regulatory agency here, and they've a job to do as well. We took that approach last year. We'll try to continue doing it this year. There are different challenges this year, as you said, than last year. We'll keep talking to the farming community about how we can work ahead through the year ahead.

The other thing I would say is that Susannah Bolton makes very clear, by the way, a number of other things, rather than picking particular items from it. She says this cannot be an excuse for not having adequate storage on farms et cetera. So, there are a number of things within this that need to be worked through to make sure—and I know you believe this, Llyr, as well—that we get it right for the farming community, but that we get it right as well for improving the health of our rivers at the same time.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'd like to, firstly, thank the Cabinet Secretary for his written statement last week on the review of the control of agricultural pollution regulations, and for agreeing to the recommendations in that review. But I'd also like more clarity on the work of the task and finish group, and farmers in my constituency would like to know whether they, along with other relevant stakeholders, will be consulted on the timeline for their implementation, and which recommendations will be prioritised. Many farmers in Wales are still frustrated at the burden of regulation, with the NFU Cymru president Aled Jones saying, quote, it is

'clear that Welsh Government’s four-yearly review…was a missed opportunity to deliver the changes that are urgently needed…and failed to reflect the sheer desperation of farmers in Wales grappling with the impracticality and complexity of the rules.'

Unquote. This inflexible, farming-by-calendar approach—as Llyr has already mentioned—to regulation is one of the most pressing areas that needs urgent change, and using technology to respond to material conditions such as rainfall and soil quality makes far more sense than regulating based on a calendar approach. So, will the collaborative approach and the task and finish group mean that areas of the regulation that are most challenging to farmers, such as the calendar-farming approach, will be prioritised over changing less problematic parts of that regulation?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you for that question, and for the welcome that you gave to the establishment of the task and finish group. I issued that statement on 8 October and we made clear there the next steps for taking forward the 23 recommendations, and we said we will take forward all of them—so, we're not picking and choosing; we've said all of them we will take forward.

The review highlighted, in answer to your question, the importance of a collaborative approach, and I strongly agree, working with all—all—stakeholders, and that includes farmers, but also those who may be involved in river health organisations, water quality organisations and so on as well. Because the regulations have got to work for farmers as well as delivering the environmental outcomes that we all want to see, including farmers want to see as well. So, one of the things I can say to you is that we're going to be using the experience that we gained from the engagement approach we took with the sustainable farming scheme, which was not only that key stakeholders were around the table with the task and finish group, but also the wider engagement as well.

You asked about prioritising certain ones. That is exactly what is in Susannah Bolton's report—which ones should be short-, medium- and long-term—with some guidance on that as to which ones might appear, which ones are, more complex. This is a more complex one, I have to tell you. She identified it. So, it will need a bit of work, but, in doing so, we’ve already started on doing some of the analysis over the summer, so it will help the speed and the pace of that. So, rather than pick and choose items that I want to or you want to or Jenny wants to or Lesley wants to accelerate, let's let the task and finish group get on with their work and set their priorities.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to prevent agricultural pollution from poisoning rivers? OQ63240

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Jenny. Shwmae to you on this important day today.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

The Welsh Government continues to address agricultural pollution through a combination of actions. These include collaboration, supporting innovation, regulation backed by inspection and enforcement, encouraging best practice through knowledge transfer and direct financial support for farmers and land managers to farm more sustainably.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

This is a subject that's very important to the citizens of Wales. Indeed, many will have read the news last week of a class action by at least 4,000 people being taken, who want to prosecute polluters of the River Wye, Usk and the Lugg. Whilst it will be some time before we know the outcome of that, in the meantime, we know that Natural Resources Wales has been awarded nearly £2 million to double down on tackling pollution and polluters. So, what use has Natural Resources Wales made of this money to take some exemplary action against polluters so everyone gets the message that there are consequences of non-compliance?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Jenny, and I think you rightly say this is a matter, building on the previous question, actually, that is for every citizen in Wales. Everybody is concerned about this. You'll understand that it's not appropriate for me to comment in any way on the action being taken through the courts, but I note the class action that is being taken forward.

You rightly flagged the money that's been put additionally to NRW for the enforcement of the regulations, and in fact the total committed since the regulations were introduced is well over £4 million, in addition to the near £2 million over the last year. The enforcement approach is actually driving change now within the sector. Compliance levels are improving. The improvement levels are up by 12 per cent between June 2024 and March 2025. We've still got a lot further to go, Jenny, I've got to say as well, okay, but that is a significant improvement, and I think there is a correlation between the additional resource being put in—. Part of it is the collaboration and part of it is the enforcement as well. So, NRW's approach to enforcing the regulations is helping to drive this forward.

And just to say, on top of that, an additional 553 farmers have been invited to submit a full application under the latest nutrient management scheme window, which includes things like storage, as we mentioned earlier on, with a total grant value of just short of £20 million. So, we're putting the money in there as well to help farmers do the right thing.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the licensing of gamebird releases? OQ63251

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Carolyn. We’re currently reviewing information following the gamebird release consultation, as well as considering the impact of the continuously changing situation with regard to avian flu. It is important that we carefully consider how we develop a robust licensing approach that's right for Wales.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for your answer, Deputy First Minister. I am particularly concerned about large-scale shoots that have a significant impact on our local wildlife, impacting on biodiversity and ecosystems, but also spreading the viruses—for example, the mass mortality of pheasants in the Berwyn in this summer as a result of bird flu. Given that pet owners are required to keep their birds under cover during outbreaks, it seems totally illogical that cage-bred gamebirds can still be released in their masses. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of gamebird releases on the spread of avian influenza, and what measures are being considered to mitigate those risks?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Carolyn. This is a very important issue, not least as we see avian influenza and as we go into the season of migratory patterns with birds as well. We're continuously monitoring avian influenza now in poultry and in wild birds. We have regular reporting from several sources. We have data intelligence gathering, we have lab testing as well for birds that we suspect are infected or found dead, and we have collaborative working across all relevant Government departments and the wider networks that we have out there within birds and poultry and so on, so we can take early interventions. We've shown this, actually, on the ground as and when necessary.

We're also, by the way, introducing additional mandatory biosecurity measures in the gamebird management sector, which will include a mandatory biosecurity checklist to be completed by all gamebird keepers.

So, we acknowledge that released gamebirds, if infected, have potential to spread avian influenza to other wild bird species, including those which are of conservation concern. But, so far, we have no evidence of mass mortalities of any other species of conservation concern in the areas that we've seen infection.

I just wanted to mention as well, following the avian influenza outbreak in gamebirds in north Wales, Welsh Government took, rightly, precautionary and additional steps outside of our usual obligations. We informed all the registered poultry and captive bird keepers in that area of the incident, which would typically only take place when we have an outbreak occurring in poultry or captive birds. So, we went above and beyond; so, we're right on top of it.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

6. How is the Welsh Government supporting farms and farmers across South Wales West with diversification? OQ63245

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Tom. A number of support schemes are available to farmers in the south-west Wales area, enabling them to develop existing or establish new diversification enterprises. An application window for the agricultural diversification and horticulture scheme is currently open, and it closes on 5 December.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Lovely to hear that. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware that farmers in England benefit from class Q regulations that allow them to convert agricultural buildings to dwellings with minimal planning interference, but no such equivalent exists in the same way here in Wales, and that puts farmers here in Wales at a competitive disadvantage if they're looking to do the same thing. So, will you look again at what measures you could introduce in Wales to level the playing field for our farmers?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes. I'm always happy to have those conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for planning, but I would say, 'Let's do what's right in the Welsh context' as well, but more than happy to do that. I wonder if he's written previously to the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for planning, but, if not, if he'd like to write to that Cabinet Secretary or to me or to both, we'd be more than happy to respond.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

7. What contingency plans are in place to assist residents who may face repeat flooding this winter, particularly those who are uninsured or in social housing? OQ63257

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Lee. Welsh Government remain vigilant to flood risks all year round. Working with key partners such as our risk management authorities, emergency services and the local resilience fora, we are focused on helping our responders support the most vulnerable in our society, who will feel the impacts of emergencies such as flooding most profoundly.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch. The British Red Cross highlighted in their recent report that residents in social housing and those without insurance are particularly vulnerable to repeat flooding. Their report found that one in five people in high-risk areas are uninsured, and many lack the resources or information to prepare for or recover from flooding. So, can the Welsh Government outline what targeted measures are in place this winter to ensure these groups are not left behind, and specifically how our contingency plans are addressing the gaps in awareness, access to emergency accommodation and financial support for those who are most exposed and least protected?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Lee, and this is such a critical issue, because that issue of awareness of insurance, where individuals can get insurance, and, if they cannot get insurance, what alternatives are out there, is critical and it will affect some of our more disadvantaged residents more than others. It is a real social justice issue.

The first thing I would say is—very much at this time of year, but always—I would urge everyone to look, first of all, at your house insurance and understand your coverage, if you have it, and many people do. The reason I say that is because standard home insurance policies do not always cover flood damage. Check that, please. There is, of course—and it's worth saying it here today and, again, seeking help from all Members to spread the word on this—the Flood Re scheme, which helps make flood assurance more accessible and affordable for properties at high risk of flooding. There is a role, of course, for social landlords as well. We're aware that a number of landlords have recently reviewed their policies to make sure that they have best practice in place with tenants about the risk to their homes and what to do in preparation for, in the eventuality of, and in the aftermath of, flooding as well, and we're keen to see more of our social landlords do that sort of work. And also it's engaging with the local resilience forums, which produce the plans for local communities as well.

And the other thing I would say, definitely, which I've mentioned on the floor before, is to look at the Flood Re build back better initiative. If you've been flooded, then, actually, that helps, with insurers providing up to £10,000 towards property flood resilience measures when repairing homes after a flood. I've seen it work, and I would encourage people to do that as well. This is a difficult area, Lee, but we're keen that social landlords play their part with their tenants and that we signpost people to where they can get insurance, as difficult as it is.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 8 [OQ63249] is withdrawn. Finally, question 9, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on air pollution levels in Swansea? OQ63235

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Mike. Air quality in Swansea is compliant with all national and local statutory air quality limits. Swansea Council publishes an annual air quality progress report outlining the actions it's taking to improve air quality. We collectively remain committed to improving air quality in Swansea and right across Wales.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you for that answer. Air quality has standards for seven key pollutants: benzene, 1,3-butadiene, carbon monoxide, lead, nitrogen dioxide, fine particles, PM10s, and sulphur dioxide. The council has carried out a multistage review and assessment of air quality within Swansea. As part of this, they have identified those areas that would exceed the national objectives. The Hafod air quality management area was declared, because Hafod was likely to fail the statutory nitrogen dioxide objectives. Microplastics are present in the air we breathe, posing a potentially significant and largely unquantifiable threat to human health and environmental well-being. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to improve air quality in Swansea, especially in Hafod?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much indeed for that supplementary. So, the air quality within the Swansea agglomeration air quality assessment zone is being constantly monitored now through a network of automatic stations and diffusion tubes. So, they measure key pollutants, including some of those you mentioned, Mike: nitrogen dioxide; particulate matter, PM10 and PM2.5; ozone, sulphur dioxide and benzene. But, of interest to you on the way that we can keep on improving standards in Swansea and right throughout Wales, I'm expecting to launch a public consultation shortly on target options for fine particulate matter—PM2.5—and the associated monitoring requirements to underpin them. And as you'll know, Mike, within our air quality legislation, taken forward by an illustrious predecessor of mine, we have the ability to go further as the evidence on the ground changes that we need to focus on other air quality issues.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical questions are next. Two questions today and the first is to be answered by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, and to be asked by David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

What discussions is the Welsh Government having with Tata regarding the future of their plants across Wales and the impact of any temporary shutdowns upon steelworkers? TQ1386

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you. Welsh Government Ministers and officials have regular discussions with Tata and the steel unions. We have been advised the temporary pause this year is due to be extended at three other sites owing to difficult market conditions.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Well, thank you for that answer, Minister. And for the record, Llywydd, I want to put on the record and remind Members that I'm a proud trade unionist and a member of Unite the Union.

Minister, on Friday, I received a call from an official from Tata that there were plans being announced to have an elongated—and I'm going to put in quotes—'festive shutdown' for the hot mill in Port Talbot, but also at the production lines in Llanwern and Trostre. This would also see steelworkers losing a large proportion of their income. There were talks of a 65 per cent basic salary being paid during that furlough. That's not happened normally in furloughs and shutdowns; staff usually get their normal pay. This is new to these things. Therefore, this is actually seeing staff losing income at a time of year when families need that money. It's Christmas time. They have mortgages to pay, they have food bills, they have heating, they have children they'll want to give presents to. So, it's disastrous for the communities.

I know that trade unions are raising some of that aspect, and I work with them and I fully support all the actions they're taking to fight that sort of 65 per cent rate. I place on record my thanks to the steel unions because they continue to work hard for steelworkers in very difficult times.

Tata, as you just indicated in your answer, indicates that global markets are to blame. They've been affected by the tariffs imposed by the United States—the 50 per cent on imported steel into the US—and of course, last week, we were here discussing the proposals of EU tariffs and the reduction in quotas that will also, in future, affect the markets. And, as a consequence, we are seeing steel being—I use the word 'dumped'—dumped in the UK markets, from China or from Vietnam, and that imported steel is having an impact upon the ability of Tata to sell its steel in the UK.

With that in mind, I suppose I want to know exactly what's going on. Because the anxiety families are facing—. Having suffered over 2,000 job losses when the blast furnaces were shut down—. And the faith in Tata—Tata are not indicating they're going to have a shutdown—but the faith in Tata at the moment is at rock bottom. They need reassurances that the Welsh Government is taking action to support the industry and to support them in particular. So, with that in mind, Minister, what discussions is the Welsh Government having with Tata about ensuring that these elongated shutdowns don't impact the long-term plans for the industry?

Also, whilst you're having those discussions, are you ensuring that financial support for these workers is put into place? Because, as I said, losing 35 per cent of your salary at a time of year when you need all that is going to have a huge impact upon families and communities. And are you having discussions with Tata about the possibility of future elongated shutdowns? Because I don't want to see this as a repetitive process. We know the global markets are very volatile, but we need to make sure this doesn't happen time after time after time. Because one of my worries is that we'll have an electric arc furnace built—the project is going ahead—it will be making steel, but there won't be a steel plant there to actually roll the steel, and steelworkers won't have their jobs in 2028 when that comes online. We must make sure that's happening.

And to that effect, what discussions are you having with the UK Government about getting tariffs and trade remedies in place in the UK to stop these imported steels coming in, taking the marketplace? The quotas need to be addressed; the tariffs need to be raised; and we need to take action to stop outside steel taking the marketplace, otherwise we're going to see more and more of this happening, and it's going to decimate our industries.

I expect both Governments to actually come up with a strategy, and we're waiting for that, Minister. Do you have any idea when that strategy might actually take place? We've been waiting for quite a while now. And I would like to see that because the future of steel is crucial to the future of Wales. It's the largest and longest foundational industry still here, and we cannot let it go. So, will you tell me what's happening, please?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank Dai Rees for the number of questions there and also recognise his role in supporting the steel industry, not just in Port Talbot, but across Wales for a number of years now? I point Members to my declarations of interest as a trade union member as well, and support all of them, members and trade union leaders, who have actively supported the industry for many, many years now.

I agree with Dai Rees that the call he received on Friday will be of concern to not just the workers at Tata Steel, but indeed their families and the wider communities. It's in that spirit that the company need to engage with trade unions to find a suitable solution to the problems that they are facing owing to the market conditions—those global conditions that Dai Rees refers to.

I can give the Member—. We are actively having conversations with both the company and the UK Government when it comes to the steel industry. On Saturday just gone, 11 October, the Cabinet Secretary for economy spoke with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the Minister for Industry, to discuss the proposed pause along with the concerns about steel tariffs, which was raised, I think, last week in a topical question to the Cabinet Secretary. Those conversations will continue. There's the opportunity again to have a further conversation in that spirit of partnership at the Tata transition board tomorrow, 16 October, where I'm sure this and other points the Member raised will be discussed further.

We want to see exactly the same thing that the Member wants to see, Llywydd: long-term viability for the sector, not just for the steel industry itself, but importantly for the Member's community, the supply chains and the downstream sites of Port Talbot. Dai Rees is absolutely right when he points to the future of steel being crucial to the future of Wales.

We are seeing those global market conditions causing difficulties for Tata and others, but we do want to work in partnership with them, through having those meaningful conversations, but importantly having those meaningful conversations with the workforce, because that's where the best solutions comes from. It's my expectation that the company follow that principle, engage with their recognised trade unions on the sites, on the three sites affected, to have those discussions and manage the discussion, given the timing of this announcement. Shutdowns are operational matters, they do happen, but I do recognise that the prolonged shutdown, particularly at this point with the upcoming Christmas period, will of course be difficult for the workforce, and they must work alongside the workforce to get through that.

The Member's point on the future and any more shutdowns of this nature, we have not been made aware of any plans in that regard. I'll just reiterate the point, for any decision that the company may wish to make in the future, not just about things like this, but any decision, they should do that with the workforce in mind and they should do that in social partnership. But, to be clear, we have not had a conversation or sight of any future shutdown in this period that the Member points to.

On the steel strategy, we're actively engaged on the steel strategy with the UK Government. I don't have the timeline with me, but I'll ask that the Cabinet Secretary follows up with the Member directly on that point when she returns from business in Brussels.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Dai Rees is completely right to point out that furloughs haven't happened on the site in Port Talbot. It's the first time they're happening. Of course, part of that is because we no longer have a blast furnace. It was too expensive for Tata to switch the blast furnace off, even when global markets were causing problems. But the fact facing a number of workers at the site is that they're going to be receiving 65 per cent of their overall wage in the run-up to Christmas. That is going to be catastrophic for so many families that I represent in my region, not just in Port Talbot, but along the M4 corridor. And now, not only that, but I am also receiving information that contractors are now being served notice by their companies because of this news. So, what I'm really keen to understand from the Government here is how they are going to be supporting, not just the workers at the site, who do need the support of the Government, but also those contractors who are going to be losing their jobs as a result of this. More often than not, the contractors are forgotten about in these disputes, but it's at a point now where people's confidence in the steel industry is at an all-time low.

And just to pick up as well on the international side, we're in a situation where tariffs are being put on our steel industry time and time again by other countries. We're going to be in a situation, as Dai has already pointed to, where we are going to be dumped on by other countries. And all the steel organisations are very clear in saying that the last country to put those tariffs up on the import of steel will be the first countries to de-industrialise and lose their steel industry. So, I really would like further news from the Minister about those conversations with the UK Government.

And on the steel strategy, it's great to know that conversations are going on, but the fact that this is being postponed now into the new year does not fill people with confidence. We need to move from conversations and move into action. So, I would really appreciate the Minister moving forward with that and ensuring that UK Government Ministers know the strength of feeling here in this Senedd, that we really need to get on with this steel strategy. Otherwise, we're going to be looking back on this period and wondering what went wrong. And we'll be able to tell you what went wrong: it's a lack of action by UK Government.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Could I thank Luke Fletcher for the range of questions? Just on the strength of feeling, Presiding Officer, well, I think, when it comes to the steel industry in Wales, the strength of the Senedd is very much recognised. It's not just the Government's position, I think there's cross-party support for the future of the steel industry and where we want to be for the future of the steel industry, and I can see opposition Members there. I can assure the Member that the Cabinet Secretary for economy takes every opportunity she can to raise with colleagues in UK Government, and counterparts in the industry as well, the importance of the steel strategy, the importance of the sector and the importance of the workforce, and not just the workers directly employed by Tata, but those in those downstream sites, and those contractors as well.

I haven't had the information that the Member has received with regard to contractors. If he wants to share that with me and the Cabinet Secretary's office, then we'll ask officials to take that forward. I repeat that there'll be a further opportunity where these matters are likely to be discussed at the transition board meeting that will take place tomorrow. But if he wants to share that information, then, of course, we will look into that further.

Just to repeat the point, Presiding Officer, I think the Cabinet Secretary made a detailed response on EU tariffs last week to questions from the Member himself and Members across the Chamber. The Cabinet Secretary did meet on Saturday to discuss the tariffs and this situation that we have in front of us. I take the Member's point on where we need to be in the future, and we'll take every opportunity to make our voice heard there. The Cabinet Secretary does it, and I will do the same there.

On the workforce point, I'll just repeat what I've said to Dai Rees: the importance of the company engaging directly with trade unions in Tata to come to a solution that is workable for everyone.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I thank the Member for Aberavon for bringing this forward, because there is real tension and worry in the community at the moment, in the steel community and the supply chain, which has rightly been highlighted by Luke Fletcher.

Last week, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee took evidence from unions, local and national representatives, as well as Tata, and I was encouraged that Tata are looking forward to the electric arc furnace build. But what work are you doing as a Welsh Government to hold their feet to the fire to ensure that project stays to time, is completed, and that there are the downstream elements of the industry still in existence to ensure that that investment is worthwhile and that electric arc furnace becomes a reality? Because I am worried that, in the UK, as I raised with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy last week, we have the highest energy costs in comparison to continental Europe, where we've seen steel companies rowing back on electric arc furnace investment. If this prolonged or elongated festive shutdown is anything to go by, then I have real concerns as to Tata's commitment to that electric arc furnace, given where we are in the industrial cycle and tariffs.

It's quite right what Luke Fletcher and Dai Rees have said around dumping. Because when I raised that point with union bosses in the committee last week, around the tariffs that are being implemented, yes, there was the concern of the sale of product into areas due to tariffs, but the No. 1 concern was dumping of product into the UK market. So, please, can you reiterate again what you're doing with UK Government counterparts around the tariff element, and what you’re doing to hold Tata's feet to the fire to ensure (a) that electric arc furnace is up and running, (b) that the downstream industrial elements to make it viable continue to exist in Wales, and (c) that the supply chain is supported, as Luke Fletcher rightly highlighted?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thanks, Sam Kurtz, for that. I'm very pleased that the economy committee was looking into the steel industry again and took important evidence from trade unions and representatives of the workforce. I'm pleased the Member recognises the importance of what they had to say and supports them going forward.

With the risk of repeating myself on the questions I've already answered today from other Members, and, indeed, on tariffs, which the Cabinet Secretary answered last week, we will continue to raise those matters. The Cabinet Secretary met with the UK Government on the weekend just gone, to discuss EU tariffs. We recognise what the Member has to say on that, and what other Members have said on tariffs, and the potential impact to the industry, and the need for the UK Government to have further conversations and take action here. The Cabinet Secretary will continue to take those conversations forward. We cannot be left in a situation where major partners are implementing solutions to protect their steel sector, only to leave the UK open to potential dumping. I think that was something that was recognised and referenced in the Member's question.

When it comes to wider investments and electric arc, you'll be aware the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary were at the ground-breaking ceremony of the electric arc furnace in July. We will continue to work with Tata on this, and all stakeholders here, to hold their feet to the fire when it comes to electric arc furnace. We want to see a viable steel sector in the future in Wales. Electric arc furnace plays a very important part of that, and we want to see that project very much realised for all of the things that can happen in Dai Rees's region, the area he represents. We want, as Dai said, the future of steel to be a part of the future of Wales, and we'll continue to work with all partners who are interested in that, and see not just the opportunities that the electric arc furnace can have for Wales, but the opportunities around wider investment in the region. I was with the Member in Port Talbot to look at the floating offshore wind technology a few months ago, and we will continue to promote Welsh steel in the supply chain to realise those ambitions as well.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I'll put on record my membership of the Community trade union at the outset, Llywydd.

Minister, as you know, Llanwern steelworks in Newport East is a finishing plant and so has some distinct issues as compared to the general picture of the steel industry in Wales. I regularly meet with the workforce, the trade unions and management at Llanwern. It's clear, given the recent history of the steel industry in Wales and the UK, and these developments now with the extended closures set to take place over Christmas, that the existing anxiety and concern and sense of state of flux in the industry are now heightened, and I think concern and anxiety are at new levels.

In that context, it's really important that we're seen as being fully committed as a Welsh Government and as Senedd Members to the steel industry in Wales, as others have mentioned. For me, it's really important that the situation of Llanwern, and other finishing plants in Wales, is fully considered in the discussions that take place between the Welsh Government and Tata and the UK Government, and, indeed, that the trade unions are centrally involved in everything that takes place. So, I wonder if you could, once again, give me the reassurances that I've had on several occasions from Welsh Government Ministers that Llanwern will be fully considered in all the discussions that take place and any actions that ultimately emerge.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank John Griffiths for his questions. I can give him the assurances that he seeks. As I said, the Government is fully committed to seeing a viable steel sector. I think the Senedd is also committed to that. I think it's important that the two are.

What's crucial, Presiding Officer, is we see the steel sector as a whole and we don't just look at one plant in isolation. We do want to see the steel sector as a whole, and downstream sites to Port Talbot are very important, like Llanwern, Trostre and Shotton, and all the sites that feed off Port Talbot.

I will give the Member reassurance today, in the conversations that the Government has with the company and other partners, including, importantly, trade unions, that Llanwern will be very much a part of those conversations and part of the solution to those conversations that we'll have going forward. Importantly, the workforce will be there.

I'll reiterate the point I made earlier in opening the questions: it is my expectation that the company and companies are engaged directly with trade unions in that spirit of social partnership to find the best possible solution to the situations in front of them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. These tariffs will have a huge effect on the steelworkers and their families in Port Talbot, people I represent, people who have already faced so much uncertainty. These temporary closures are compounding months of anxiety, and it's leading to a cynicism as well, a feeling that Tata is just not keeping faith with them. It's a terrible situation, as we've heard other Members describe, so close to Christmas, it's going to have a huge impact on both the financial and mental well-being of the workers and their families.

How is the Welsh Government going to ensure, in conversation with Tata and the UK Government, that the confidence of the workforce and their families is maintained in this industry? It runs in their blood, but they are feeling more and more like they're just being left high and dry, waiting for the next hammer blow to fall. These are faithful, skilled workers, and I'm afraid, as we've seen over the past months when we saw the closure of the blast furnaces, many of them are going to leave their communities. They're not going to put up with this. These are highly paid, highly skilled workers, who've given their all for this industry, and they just feel they're being let down over and over again.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Sioned Williams for the questions and the opportunity to reiterate the points that I've made. I want to recognise the highly skilled workforce of the steel sector, as the Member did, particularly in Wales. I myself have worked alongside some of them in the Shotton plant, so I know full well the skills and the lifetimes that they put into the industry. It is right that we want to see a thriving steel sector in the future, so they can support their families, and, indeed, future generations can have skilled jobs in the steel industry as well.

The Member asks how the Welsh Government will continue the conversations to make sure the workforce is heard. We do that in a number of ways. As I said, the Cabinet Secretary has already had conversations on this particular issue and the issue of EU tariffs at the weekend. The Cabinet Secretary will continue those conversations at ministerial level, and her office will continue those conversations directly with the company and trade unions as well. There is a further opportunity, I think, to discuss this particular matter and other matters at the Tata transition board, which will take place tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that will be raised by Members of this Senedd, and there will be other opportunities, including for the trade unions, to raise those particular points.

I just want to reiterate the point I've already made: the best way of engaging and finding solutions for companies, including Tata, is to work directly with their workforce, their trade unions, in that spirit of social partnership. We will be promoting that at every step of the way, as we will promote the steel sector at every step of the way, as the Cabinet Secretary does on a daily basis.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, thank you for taking the question today. I've constantly heard you refer back to the Cabinet Secretary's statement last week on tariffs, but I haven't heard it come from your mouth that the Welsh Government's position is to support trade defence measures to support the steel industry. We've seen the aggressive tactics of China and other major steel producers in pumping below-cost-of-production steel onto the market. So, is it the case that the Welsh Government does firmly stand behind trade defence measures, which was asked for by both Tata Steel and the unions in our committee meeting last week, as one of the prerequisites to protecting the steel industry here in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom? Because without those trade defence measures, we really will not have a steel industry left.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for raising the question again here today. Presiding Officer, I think the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the economy, energy and planning answered a number of questions on EU tariffs last week, and it was only last week, Presiding Officer. I'll refer the Member to the answers pointed on EU tariffs. I can assure the Member we want to see a viable steel sector here in Wales, and we will make every effort, working with the UK Government and our partners in the industry, to make sure that happens going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Trefnydd and to be asked by Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, may I thank you for accepting this topical question today? I understand—. My thoughts—.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And I accept those thanks. Thank you, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. So, this is a matter, really, for a number of my residents—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask the question. Now you've thanked me for accepting it, you need to ask the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the further defects found on the Menai Bridge? TQ1388

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much indeed, Janet Finch-Saunders. Diolch yn fawr. No further issues have been found on the Menai suspension bridge since the issue with the bolts was discovered earlier this month, which the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales provided a written statement about on 6 October.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

It has been reported in the press, I understand, that further defects have been found, you see. Anyway, going back to the last statement that was made, people are asking for an update. Clearly, the situation as it stands is not acceptable. It's having a horrendous impact on people working on the island who live in other parts of north Wales, actually. It does fall under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Government. I understand some controversy has been caused by the fact that there was a hint in the statement made that the bridge works are all part of UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd. There was an implication that UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd was run by Westminster, when, in fact, it's work that's put to them by the Welsh Government.

Over the last week, motorists have faced congestion due to delays, with diversions for all traffic to the Britannia bridge. A recent audit found that bolts and nuts on the beams under the bridge had corrosion. Questions must be answered as to why, during all the three years of work that have gone on, this has only been found now. In any project with any company carrying out repairs, you'd have thought that all the anxiety that's been felt by residents, businesses and people across north Wales—. You would have thought something as important as this—rusty nuts and bolts—would have been found during that period. This recent audit, finding the rusty nuts and bolts, is just—. We need to know why this has not been picked up sooner.

We know that 13,300 vehicles use the Menai bridge every day, travelling in both directions. We also know it's a main route for the port traffic going in, or lorries and things like that. The bridge now has partial reopening expected to operate between the hours of 07:00 and 19:00, with a full closure overnight. The bridge will be limited to vehicles up to a 3-tonne weight limit, and the flow of traffic off the island in the morning and onto the island in the afternoon will be one-way, basically. Cyclists will be expected to dismount and use the footpath, and it's just causing so much aggravation to residents there, to workers there. And it further clearly demonstrates the importance of improving connectivity between Ynys Môn and the mainland, and that would be made possible by the creation of a third Menai crossing.

The cost of inaction is what could have been planned maintenance, mitigation measures in place, and now it's turned into closures. And it's just—. Well, there's huge concern, and lots and lots of people are raising concerns.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can you just ask the questions now?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

The people of Anglesey deserve better, people across north Wales needing to get onto the island deserve better. The First Minister has stated while they have not ruled out—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I did ask you to ask the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Okay. Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that whilst the First Minister has not ruled out a third crossing, there's been no mention of any financial—? He mentions there are financial barriers. So, will you join my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I to call for the creation of a third Menai crossing—well, not you, but will you persuade the Cabinet Secretary to commit to spending the needed funds in north Wales in order to build this third crossing, which is much needed? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. Your question was about asking me to make a statement on the further defects found on the Menai bridge, and I will answer that question.

The issue—the discovery of defective bolts—has come about for the phase 2 works and was identified by UK Highways A55 design team from the various analyses, investigations and inspections that were being undertaken for the next stage of works. And as you'll be aware, every possible option was explored to keep the bridge open safely. The advice from engineers and the enforcement concerns raised by UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd left no alternative but to implement a full temporary closure. It's absolutely right that you draw attention to the disruption this short temporary closure had. I know that the Cabinet Secretary, and I on his behalf today, will again extend our sincere apologies to the local communities and businesses and those affected.

Over that weekend of 5 and 6 October, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales met directly with UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd. He met with local Members of the Senedd and Parliament and the leader of Ynys Môn to understand the situation in full and to provide an update. And, again, it's important to say that he relayed in no uncertain terms the deep frustration and disappointment felt by the community and himself—a view shared by local Members, expressed today and last week, regarding the performance of UK Highways A55 DBFO Ltd in managing this critical infrastructure.

But I will say, Llywydd, that the bridge is now open for one-way traffic, light controlled, for under 3-tonne traffic, from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. daily. From 7 a.m. to 1 p.m., traffic can travel eastbound from Anglesey to Bangor; from 1 p.m. to 7 p.m., traffic can travel westbound from Bangor to Anglesey. So, obviously, action has been taken to make sure that there is a traffic flow.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you for the statement, but I am afraid that there are a great number of questions regarding the Menai bridge that still have not been fully answered. I do understand that perhaps you may not have the full information at present, but I would like to have full answers to questions. The first question is: why were the latest problems not discovered sooner? We still have not had a full answer about that. How will what is happening with fixing what has recently been found affect the wider work programme—the timetable for that programme?

These events do remind us of the fragility of the transport infrastructure across the Menai straits, and it is essential that the Welsh Government treat this matter with the gravity that it deserves, not only by ensuring that the necessary repairs on the Menai bridge are properly funded and carried out on time, but also by introducing effective short-term mitigation measures on the Britannia bridge.

In terms of the Britannia bridge, what is the latest information regarding the introduction of a three-lane traffic control system on that bridge? What is the latest information regarding the introduction of contraflow lanes on the Britannia bridge? What is the latest information regarding the introduction of specific measures around the junctions? And also, what is the latest information regarding keeping the Britannia bridge open in windy conditions? Now, those are questions that have been asked by local people and by myself as their representative for many years, and we're still not receiving answers.

So, we would appreciate some clarity about what action the Welsh Government intends to take to strengthen the resilience of travel across the Menai in the short term, ensuring that the residents of Arfon and Anglesey are not forced to suffer unacceptable levels of traffic and congestion on both sides of both bridges.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Siân Gwenllian, for your questions today and last week—

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

—because I know you were asking questions as well on this last week. And I think your question—. The first question, which I think I did seek to respond on to the Member Janet Finch-Saunders, was: why wasn't this problem discovered sooner? The frustration about the discovery of this problem, which of course I've expressed on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, the fact that it was actually discovered as part of the phase 2 works and identified by that UK Highways A55 design team, which was about investigations and inspections for the next stage of works in terms of the bridge, again, is something where—. You asked the question on how will it affect the wider work. I understand that the Menai resilience study undertaken by the North Wales Transport Commission made 16 recommendations. The top ones were taken forward and the Cabinet Secretary for transport has committed to the following work being progressed, which would include implementation of a wind deflector on Britannia bridge to the next stage of detailed design; progressing development to upgrade the bridge traffic restriction equipment, alongside a variable speed limit; implementing new road markings and signs—part of your question—between junction 9 roundabouts, to improve lane discipline and management; and progressing a study and detailed risk assessment to confirm the suitability and practicality of a three-lane tidal flow system on the Britannia bridge. All of those recommendations were accepted. The A55 transport needs and resilience study, which is due to start this year, will consider all options to ensure the resilience of the A55 along its length, including the Menai crossings. That can range from possibly tidal flow on the Britannia bridge, already being looked at as part of those transport commission recommendations, all the way up to a third Menai crossing. So, the wider work programme is being taken forward.

Just again to answer the points about what's happening, I've given you some details about the traffic flows at present. The work is expected to be—. The temporary bridging beam under the Menai suspension bridge is crucial. That work started this Monday. It's expected to be completed by the end of the month, and this will allow traffic management to revert to 7.5 tonne and two-way flow, and the bolt issue work will commence as soon as possible. And then the phase 2 works will then recommence following the bolt repairs. I think it's really important to share this today. And of course, in normal conditions, emergency vehicles, for example, are to use the Britannia bridge, but this is something where, in the event of issues with the Britannia bridge, emergency services could use the Menai suspension bridge, following special travel plans. So, these issues all have to be taken into account as they deal with this temporary closure and these vital urgent repairs.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Trefnydd, for those answers.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. There is one today from Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to take a moment to mark the end of Baby Loss Awareness Week, which has run from 9 October to today, 15 October. This is a moment for people across Wales and around the world to come together to remember the babies who've died during pregnancy, at birth or infancy, and for us to stand alongside the families and loved ones and those who grieve for them.

The heartbreak of losing a baby is something that no parent should ever have to endure. For too many it's a painful and life-altering reality. That's why, this week, it's been important to break the silence that often surrounds baby loss to raise awareness and to show families that they are not alone. I want to pay tribute to the charity Sands and all of the organisations involved in this week for the work that they do every single day supporting bereaved families, raising awareness and pushing for better care and understanding.

As part of Baby Loss Awareness Week, we are invited to wear the pink and blue ribbon, and I'm pleased to see so many Members across this Chamber doing so. It's a small but powerful gesture to show our support and help to start conversations about an issue that is too often hidden. We're also encouraged to take part in a wave of light at 7 p.m. this evening, lighting a candle to remember every baby lost too soon, to join with families across the world in honouring their memory. I know that Members across this Chamber remain committed to improving bereavement care and ensuring that every family affected by baby loss receives the compassion and support that they deserve. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Next is the motion to suspend Standing Orders in order to allow the motion to establish a committee to be debated. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Yes, I formally move, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. That motion is therefore agreed.

Motion to establish a committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That allows us to move to the motion to establish a committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee once again to formally move. Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I formally move, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed and the committee is established.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 5 is postponed.

6. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee Report, 'Report on Transport for Wales’ performance 2024-25'

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will move, therefore, to item 6, a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Report on Transport for Wales’ performance 2024-25'. I call on the Chair of the committee to make the first contribution and to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. This debate focuses on the third annual report by the committee on Transport for Wales during this Senedd term. The report specifically covers the 2024-25 period and draws on two key pieces of work by the committee, namely our visit to the metro depot and control centre at Taffs Well and our scrutiny session with TfW earlier this year.

Both pieces of work gave Members a clear picture of the scale of the challenges facing TfW, as well as, I have to say, the progress that it has made in recent years as it continues to try to transform rail and public transport in Wales. Now, the report contains 20 recommendations and TfW has accepted all of them, either in full or in principle. I’d like to thank TfW for the open and constructive manner in which it has engaged with our work and also for the comprehensive response it has provided.

I’d like to turn now to the main themes of our report. First, governance and corporate development. The committee has revisited this area each year because it is so important to the way in which TfW operates. We have always maintained that an arm's-length body handling around £0.5 billion of public money must operate transparently and must be subject to oversight that is clear and effective. We heard evidence that engagement between TfW and the Welsh Government improved during the budget cycle in 2024-25. The process is now more efficient and, for the first time, TfW's budget was published as an addendum to the Welsh Government's draft budget. The committee welcomed this as a practical step forward that will allow for more timely scrutiny. However, Members felt that this action to improve transparency still falls short. We continue to believe that the long-term goal should be a single comprehensive budget published alongside the Government's draft budget. That would then, of course, place TfW on the same footing as other public bodies and it would allow Members and the public to see the full picture in terms of how public money is being spent.

We also examined the internal governance arrangements at TfW, particularly the role of the performance board, which brings senior officials from TfW and the Welsh Government together. We heard that the board has improved alignment between TfW's corporate priorities and ministerial objectives, that forecasting is now more accurate, and that funding decisions have become more disciplined. We welcome these developments, naturally, but Members agreed that the real test of good governance is whether these improvements lead to better value for money, and more reliable services for passengers. And that, of course, is what the committee will continue to monitor.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Finally, on performance measurement, TfW told us that its corporate KPIs are being reviewed to ensure that they remain fit for purpose. Quarterly data are now published with year-on-year comparisons. Again, this is a step in the right direction, but we once again continue to be concerned that the way data are presented does not yet make it easy for the public, or indeed Members of the Senedd, to assess whether performance is improving over time. We have therefore recommended that TfW should focus its KPIs on the outcomes that matter most to passengers, and that each report should include a clear narrative showing whether performance is improving.

I’ll turn now to the workforce. The committee has consistently emphasised that TfW as a major national employer should lead by example in promoting diversity and equality of opportunity. In 2024-25, there were encouraging steps forward. TfW appointed its first female operational director and also achieved a 50:50 gender balance in a driver cohort for the first time. These are important milestones in what has traditionally been a male-dominated industry. TfW told us that targeted recruitment events, mentoring, and partnerships with schools and community groups are all contributing to this gradual change. Members welcomed these achievements, but agreed that sustained effort will be needed to embed this cultural change. Recruiting more women into operational roles such as driving and engineering is vital, not just to improve representation, but also to help close the gender pay gap.

On wider diversity, the committee was encouraged to hear about TfW's partnerships with organisations such as Oasis, the Welsh Refugee Council and the Muslim Council of Wales, which are helping again to promote opportunities among underrepresented groups. The committee supports this approach and encourages TfW to expand it beyond Cardiff to other regions. A workforce that reflects the communities that it serves is essential to building trust and ensuring that public transport meets the needs of all users.

Another major theme of the committee's work this year was bus services. As a committee, we have been concerned that passenger numbers in Wales have recovered more slowly since the pandemic than in England or Scotland. Buses are the backbone of public transport in many communities in Wales, and, without strong patronage levels for these services, then they become harder to sustain, and this is particularly the case in more rural areas. TfW and the Welsh Government told us that Wales's older demographic profile may be behind the slower recovery, as well as structural factors such as dispersed settlements and the impact of the pandemic on concessionary travel. However, the committee felt that the reasons are not yet fully understood, therefore, we recommended that TfW should commission research to identify the barriers and to define targeted measures ahead of the introduction of bus franchising. TfW has accepted this and we expect that evidence to be published so that it can inform decisions before the first franchised services begin in the south-west in 2027.

On ticketing, the committee welcomed the progress towards integration. Distance-based fares are now in place on the TrawsCymru network, the 1bws ticket continues to operate successfully in north Wales, and tap on, tap off technology is being trialled, of course, and these are important steps towards the vision of one network, one timetable, one ticket. However, at the time of our report, it was still not possible to combine concessionary travel with the tap on, tap off scheme. The committee recognises the technical and operational challenges, but it also believes that there is potential to capture better data and provide a more seamless experience for concessionary passengers as well. This would help to ensure equality of access for all passengers, regardless of where they live and however they travel, and we've asked TfW to explore this issue.

I will turn next to rail performance. We heard that 2024 had began positively with punctuality improving as more new trains entered service, but that progress levelled off later in the year. Severe weather and infrastructure failures had a specific impact on the Wales and borders network.

Members also discussed how performance information is communicated to the public. TfW's commitment to develop tailored measures for different service types, beginning with the Valleys lines, is a positive step, given that certain measures can mask wider performance issues. For example, poor performance on a rural line with only a few services per day has a far greater impact on passengers than a minor delay on a high-frequency route. However, the committee believes that TfW should go further by publishing route-level performance data in an accessible format so that passengers can easily see how the services that they rely on are performing.

On passenger welfare, we welcomed evidence that TfW is reducing the number of run-fast part cancellations, which have been a significant source of frustration. We also heard that TfW is giving more flexibility to control teams to prioritise passenger needs when services are disrupted. The next step will be to formalise these arrangements by introducing general criteria across the network, as well as clearly designated support hubs to ensure that passengers are treated consistently during service disruption. Passengers must have confidence in what to expect when things go wrong.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, our report looked at climate adaptation. Now, the recent flooding on the north Wales main line and through Hereford has highlighted how vulnerable our transport infrastructure is to extreme weather. Members agreed that building resilience must be a core part of TfW's future planning and investment. TfW's climate adaptation and resilience plan, published in 2023, sets out a framework for identifying and managing climate risks, and the plan provides a solid foundation, but, of course, it needs to be implemented. The committee has asked for a detailed update on progress by this autumn, including findings from site surveys, resilience measures that have been taken and work with Network Rail to develop adaptation strategies for at-risk routes.

To conclude, therefore, the committee recognises that 2024-25 was a year of good progress for Transport for Wales. More new trains entered service, metro works advanced and steps were taken to improve transparency, diversity and performance reporting. But the message from this report is that progress must continue and must translate into better day-to-day experiences for passengers.

TfW still faces major challenges, including delivering the final stages of the rolling stock programme, strengthening its financial transparency and building resilience against climate risks, and perhaps its greatest challenge still lies ahead, namely delivering bus franchising successfully. This will affect the daily lives of people in every part of Wales, and TfW will need to raise its performance once again to deliver on the promise of a transport system that is reliable, affordable and integrated. The committee welcomes TfW's constructive response to our report, and we will continue to monitor delivery closely as we near the end of this Senedd term. Thank you.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I just want to put on record that I have a family member who is employed by Transport for Wales. I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate on Transport for Wales's performance, as laid out in the committee's latest report. I'm also grateful for the work of the committee members in compiling this report, in particular the Chair of the committee, who's just spoken.

As we know, public transport in Wales must work for the people of Wales. It must be reliable, accountable and transparent, but, as the committee's report has highlighted, too often some of these areas can be missed, and I don't wish to repeat the words of the committee Chair, so I'll try and focus my remarks today on just two key areas that I believe the committee report brings to light. The first is around financial transparency and the second area is around service reliability. For me, these are two issues at the very heart of confidence, both in our public bodies, in terms of financial transparency, and confidence in our transport system from a reliability perspective.

So, first, on the financial transparency, the committee has repeatedly called for Transport for Wales to publish its full budget alongside the Welsh Government's own draft budget. This is not a radical ask, it's basic public accountability, especially when we're talking about budgets of hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money. There'll be councils with similar budget spending, which has much more significant transparency when it comes to how that spending takes place. Yet, once again, we find ourselves in a position where that clarity is missing. We heard from the chief executive of Transport for Wales, who admitted in his response to the committee that TfW still doesn't operate with a single consolidated budget. So, how can the public or this Senedd, as elected Members, properly scrutinise those spending decisions when there doesn't appear to be a clear, unified picture of how hundreds of millions of pounds of public funds are being used? Let's remember that this is public money. Whilst TfW may be at arm's length to Government, it's subsidised significantly by taxpayers' funding. It's delivering and attempting to deliver major infrastructure, overseeing key services and directly impacting the daily lives of Welsh commuters and travellers. The Welsh public deserves to know where the money is going and whether it's being spent wisely. So, Cabinet Secretary, this lack of progress, in my view, is not acceptable. We've heard a lot about improving transparency; we need to see more action.

Now, to the second point, the issue that affects passengers most directly—service reliability. The committee's report rightly points out that performance levels are still far below public expectations. We've all heard the complaints, and some of us may have had to experience some of these directly ourselves: delayed trains, overcrowding, cancelled services and a lack of consistent communication. This isn't just a nuisance for a few Senedd Members from time to time, but, for many people, it's the difference between them getting to work on time or not getting to work at all, impacting their livelihoods. This matters even more as we ask people to shift away from cars and towards public transport. How can we ask people to make that shift when the service remains unacceptably inconsistent? Yes, we know that the situation isn't always easy, and, yes, there may be legacy issues, but the public wants to see solutions to these problems. The committee recommended that TfW implement better systems for monitoring and reporting on service delivery, and I strongly support that; we need to see clear targets, monthly performance dashboards and public reporting that actually means something to passengers. It's not enough to say, 'We're doing our best', we need to see measurable progress, and I believe that the committee's report points to that very clearly.

I would add that we also need to see real accountability when those services fall short. It shouldn't take media coverage or pressure from elected officials to get answers when things go wrong. So, to conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, on these issues, a lack of transparency in the budget and underperformance in service delivery could both contribute to the erosion of trust in terms of public accountability and the reliability of our transport system, trust in Transport for Wales and trust in this Government's ability to deliver on transport. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'm very pleased that we're able to have this debate today on the committee's report on Transport for Wales's performance, and I'd like to thank James Price and his colleagues for coming to give evidence to the committee and also for the great welcome they gave to us when we visited Taff's Well and saw the fantastic fleet of trains that have now started to run on the Valleys lines, which is really transforming the transport system in south-east Wales.

I'd like to focus on two particular areas of the report. The first has been referred to by the Chair, and that is on the gender balance make-up of Transport for Wales, and we do highlight that in our report. I think it's very pleasing that there's been an increase in the number of women that are working for the company and that a concerted effort is being made to bring more women on board, but I do note that this has been more in non-rail divisions, such as office roles, rather than working on the rail itself. James Price said in his evidence that women now accounted for more than 50 per cent of staff in senior management roles, graduate training schemes and internships, which is a fantastic place to have gotten to, but we know that the traditional rail operational roles are predominantly still male-dominated roles, and he did make the point that there is very limited turnover in staff. I think the Chair did mention that the first operational director has been appointed, who is a woman, and that the cohort of drivers has reached a 50:50 split. So, I think that is a very significant development. I think it does show that Transport for Wales is making a great effort to try to make its workforce more representative of the communities that it serves, but, ironically, as the Chair also said, because of the nature of the roles being filled by women, and the pay scales associated with the traditionally male roles, the gender pay gap is actually increasing. We do feel that this needs to be urgently addressed, and even more things should be done to ensure that the whole workforce is representative of our society.

The second issue I'd like to raise is to do with Transport for Wales's performance, and that I'm linking to my experiences as a constituency MS, because earlier this year, the top-10 worst performing train stations in the UK were revealed, and of the top-10 stations, three were along the Coryton line in my constituency of Cardiff North. And from speaking to constituents about the service, I understand why this was the case. The line was frequently met with cancellations, and trust in the service was low. But I have been encouraged by the fact that, since that data was released, Transport for Wales has made a concerted effort to put things right, and I've been working with local representatives to ensure that there is some improvement. Now, reports of cancellations are now far fewer, and the line, as I said earlier, benefits now from a completely new fleet of trains, which are far more environmentally friendly, more reliable and more accessible for people to use.

On the Coryton line, we now have a Sunday service, from the December timetable change, and I'm hopeful that our calls for four trains an hour will be met, and that the Welsh Government will provide the funding needed for a passing loop along the line for this to happen. I think that we need, with the metro, to ensure that we do have enough trains running per hour in order to make it the sort of reliable system that's in, for example, London, where, if you go to get the tube, you don't go for a particular time, you just go, because you know there'll be one soon after. I think that's what we want to happen on the metro, and I certainly hope that we'll be able to get, in Cardiff, particularly on the Coryton line, four trains an hour.

In my dealings with Transport for Wales as a constituency MS, I have been very impressed by their response to the individual issues that have arisen and their willingness to meet and undertake site visits with constituents. They've been particularly helpful to me with the opening of the bridge across to the allotments in Whitchurch, and with the closure that we've now got at the Ty Glas station. They are very keen to be involved with constituents. I believe Transport for Wales has really established itself as a body now in Wales. It's got huge challenges ahead, particularly the bus franchising, as the Chair referred to, but I think it has developed as a body. I think it's firmly established and I think it will bring great benefit to Wales. Diolch.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I want to begin by acknowledging Transport for Wales's engagement with the committee's annual report and also with myself as transport spokesperson for Plaid Cymru. It's welcome that all 20 of the recommendations were accepted, but I'd like to emphasise something that we all know too well: acceptance is not the same as delivery. We must confront the growing gap between commitments made and results delivered. Words alone don’t get people to work on time. What passengers, communities and businesses across Wales deserve are measurable improvements visible in their daily journeys.

Let’s start with performance. TfW promised that, by 2025, 95 per cent of journeys would be on new trains, yet today that figure stands at around 77 per cent—a clear shortfall, and one that directly affects passenger confidence. This is a significant miss against a flagship commitment. Passengers were told that the new fleet would transform their experience by reducing cancellations, improving reliability and ending overcrowding, yet adjusted cancellations in Wales remain above the Great Britain average.

Reliability is what matters to people trying to get to work, to school or hospital on time, and accountability should be the foundation of that reliability. The Welsh Government, as the funder and strategic partner of TfW, must show stronger leadership in driving these delivery standards. It's not enough to welcome progress; Ministers must ensure that promises made to passengers are actually met.

On that note of accountability, I'm pleased that TfW has accepted in principle the recommendation to review its key performance indicator framework, and that new KPIs have since been published. But let's be clear: if performance reporting continues to rely on outdated, opaque indicators, the performance board risks becoming a bureaucratic exercise rather than the driver of real accountability. KPIs must reflect the diversity of the Welsh network. The core Valleys lines face very different challenges from the rural lines in mid and north Wales.

Turning, then, to buses, usage in Wales remains stubbornly at just 78 per cent of pre-COVID levels, the slowest recovery anywhere in Britain. TfW's leadership role in franchising and integration is welcome, but as we've heard, the decision not to include concessionary fares in the new tap-on, tap-off system weakens the idea of a truly integrated network. We also need clear assurances that franchising will not lead to service cuts or to a centralised, Cardiff-heavy model that leaves smaller communities behind. Again, the Welsh Government must guarantee that its funding and franchising framework protects rural and regional equity.

As we've read in the report, the committee raised the urgent need for stronger climate resilience, particularly flood protection for vulnerable lines like the Conwy valley and Cambrian routes. TfW accepted that recommendation, and I welcome the development of its weather resilience and climate change adaptation strategy, but given the frequency of weather-related disruptions, passengers deserve more than long-term planning. They need immediate funding measures now.

Finally, on governance, TfW says it's engaging with the transition to Great British Railways, GBR, but it remains unclear what formal influence Wales will have once GBR is established. With rail only partially devolved, this is a pivotal moment. If Wales's interests aren't embedded in GBR's structure now, they risk being sidelined once again. We need firm assurances from both TfW and Welsh Government that Wales's funding operations and priorities will not be further swallowed up in a centralised system designed around English needs. The Welsh Government has called for the devolution of rail powers, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. That case now must be made more forcefully than ever, because without it Wales's transport ambitions will always be constrained by decisions taken by Westminster. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you to the committee for the report and to TfW for their clear co-operation.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

It's a very narrow point that I wish to raise today, and that is linked to recommendation 3 in the report, which referenced value for money, and it's following on from the scrutiny point that my colleague Sam Rowlands made earlier on. Earlier this year, I was contacted by a train driver, a Transport for Wales train driver, and following that, my office undertook some freedom of information requests with Transport for Wales in relation to spare drivers and driving patterns. For the time period requested, TfW, by their own figures, had 89 drivers and 70 conductors more than is needed to run the service, and in excess of the established posts. This equates to an excess wage bill per annum of over £8 million.

To explain, I understand the need for spare drivers. They are utilised to ensure services run and to minimise cancellations and delays. A spare driver works a shift, but is not allocated to a route that day. In fact, they just sit in the office and they wait for a call. More often than not, that call does not come. They're on standby in a depot in case a scheduled driver cannot drive that route. On average, there are 11 spare drivers and six spare conductors per day. However, I'm told that quite often there are three times this number sitting in the depot. This is a considerably higher number than when Arriva ran the service.

It's essential that the TfW train service is seen as a service that provides value for money in all areas, not just with regards to fares and tickets, but also in that excess and perceived waste are minimised—in fact, are eradicated. So, I would like this to be looked into more, and some answers from TfW why this perceived waste is allowed to continue. Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Last year was an important one for transport policy, and Transport for Wales has a few big years ahead. We are moving towards bus franchising, so there was a lot to consider in this inquiry. Integrated transport remains a firm ambition, and we are getting there. Perhaps we would like to travel faster and, in that respect, it mirrors some of the journeys people experience day to day.

Of course, there have been rail cancellations and, of course, every single time that happens, it causes frustration with people being held up at a station, and the cancellation of any service, of course, is also bad news for those individuals involved. But I think that we have to recognise that we are in climate change, and that very often it is flooding that creates the biggest challenge of all, the biggest disruption of all, and I think going forward we will have to look at and act, where we are able to, about really taking that situation more seriously. If you look at where our rail tracks are along the coastline, when the weather gets rough you can see the water because it's coming along your window if you happen to be on a train, and more than that, you can't see the train at all because it won't arrive because it's flooded along the marshes.

But overall, it is a positive picture. Transport for Wales has reported achieving the greatest improvement in punctuality among all train operators, and it's taking on a growing role in active travel, and customer satisfaction with rail services on the up, and bus franchising, as I mentioned, is under way. There is, of course, some joined-up thinking between Welsh Government and Transport for Wales, with significant investment that has been put into rolling stock, whether that's on the road or on the rail. Of course, the free bus travel for over-60s, the cheap fares for young people and veterans all help to make this a better experience.

I want to focus my contribution on rural communities, and I want to remind people, like I always do, that's a third of our total population. Therefore, I'm of course pleased that Transport for Wales accepted recommendation 7 in regard to integrated ticketing for rural and long-distance bus services. That's already operating. It's been rolled out across Traws Cymru services, and passengers using T1 and T2 services can now buy tickets and journey plan from national rail planning and retail platforms directly to destinations as a simple add-on fare. And again, on the TrawsCymru network, TfW has brought in single-leg pricing and a distance-based structure, reducing the cost of single journeys for most passengers. That's, again, a positive development.

On trains, we have discussed the difficulty of comparing the performance of more infrequent rural services with busier urban lines. Of course, a cancelled train on an hourly or less-frequent service is far more disruptive to the individual than on a train journey that runs every 15 minutes or so. Again, TfW accepted in principle our recommendations to publish data by individual routes going forward. That should give us a better and clearer performance picture in the future and help better serve rural communities.

As I said, overall, the direction of travel is a positive one, and TfW says it is closer than ever to delivering our vision for truly integrated transport. Given the level of public investment and political energy driving that vision forward, we should expect to see substantive improvements when the committee assesses this year's performance. And just to close, I think whilst some people might like to have a field day, the cows in Neath recently decided not to have a field day.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'd just like to start by saying my experience using rail transport is very different to that of the Conservative Member for North Wales. The negativity in the local press has been really disappointing, because we need to encourage usage.

Rail travel has significantly improved over the last year, with more carriages and increased passenger usage following the £800 million investment. I use the rail network regularly and I want to take this opportunity to praise Transport for Wales staff—the drivers, the guards on the trains and on the platforms, the travel companions, those that deliver the catering. They, along with the CCTV, mean that I always feel safe when using the train no matter what time of the day, and comfortable, and they provide so much information and assistance, helping travellers, which I also think contributes to the increased rail patronage and confidence, encouraging more people to use them.

I was pleased to see the response from Transport for Wales regarding issues raised with flooding impacting services and also on climate resilience, which is a huge concern going forward, as many of the lines are low lying, as my colleague Joyce Watson said, and part of the north Wales line acts as a sea defence, which is always a worry for me.

We need to work towards a one-network system, making travel easier and affordable. I'm still concerned regarding the variation of fares, especially rail fares in north Wales and south Wales. The introduction of tap on, tap off is really helpful, as well as the much-valued T network serving rural communities with subsidies. I've been meeting residents recently at various drop-ins, and they were concerned they were going to lose the bus, and I was saying, 'No, we just need to learn from you what's really important going forward when we look at the new network', and they're so pleased to have rural transport still.

I'm pleased there is a focus on public transport. I was initially concerned about knowledge and capacity within Transport for Wales, but have been reassured recently in meetings that expertise and capacity has increased, which will be needed towards delivering an integrated network, and the bus Bill going forward. Their engagement with stakeholders is really important, and I have welcomed it and what they've been doing so far. I'm pleased that in Wales we have retained free bus travel from 60 years of age. It's disappointing that people haven't returned in the same numbers following the pandemic, but it is good that the successful £1 bus fare pilot has been introduced to encourage under-21-year-olds to use bus transport from a young age, so hopefully we can grow it that way. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, I want to start by thanking the committee very much for all of its hard work. Your careful scrutiny has genuinely strengthened our work in this area. I also just want to talk a little bit about not just aspiration, but about the delivery, what Transport for Wales has already achieved, and what's already making a real difference on the ground.

Deputy Llywydd, as always, it's frustrating—I won't have time to answer all the points raised, but I will do my best to gallop through as many of them as possible. As the committee Chair has already said, Transport for Wales accepted 19 of the 20 recommendations in full and one in principle—a serious commitment, and we will be updating you on progress shortly.

I also want to acknowledge Vernon Everitt, who took up the chair role this summer. In just a few months, he's reshaping the board, driving performance and robustly representing Welsh interests in UK rail reform discussions. His leadership is really making an impact.

Deputy Llywydd, Transport for Wales is more than just a rail operator—it's a real symbol of what this Welsh Labour Government is delivering for our communities. We made a promise: we promised to build a modern, integrated public transport system that puts people first, and we're delivering that promise.

Transport for Wales is now one of the UK's most successful public transport organisations, and it's homegrown. After just 10 years, Transport for Wales has become a transport powerhouse, with over 4,500 staff and a turnover of more than £500 million. And I completely agree with Carolyn Thomas that the staff I encounter are always willing to go above and beyond to help out. They're always friendly and very knowledgeable.

Passenger numbers tell the story. In 2024-25, TfW carried 31.7 million rail passengers and 1.2 million on TrawsCymru buses—a growth of 19 per cent and 11 per cent respectively. That's just not to be sneezed at. Train fare revenue rose by £25 million, from £148 million to £175 million. And today, Transport for Wales stands as the most improved operator in the UK. Punctuality, reliability and customer satisfaction are all rising. That's not just progress, that's proof that public ownership, investment and ambition work.

Because this isn't only about trains—it's about leadership. Wales is now leading the UK in transport reform. From the south Wales metro to upgrades on the north Wales coast main line, we're setting the pace, not following it. We're showing what's possible when public transport is treated as a public good and not a private profit centre.

Was 2024 perfect? No, it absolutely wasn't, and the Cabinet Secretary has been clear about the operational challenges that were faced, but it was a turning point. Wales moved closer than ever to a truly integrated sustainable transport system, and in 2025 that momentum has not slowed. Between April and June this year, Transport for Wales recorded the biggest improvement in punctuality of any UK operator, with 84 per cent of services on time, which is up 1.5 percentage points year on year. And that figure is 94 per cent 'on time to three', as it's called, on the core Valleys lines—so, period 6, which is the most recent period—and I think that should be acknowledged.

I do think that talking it down is not the way to get passenger traffic up, because passenger traffic is up, customer satisfaction is up, and why? Because of our continued and committed investment. We held our nerve when all around us were telling us that we were putting too much money into this, and now we reap the rewards. The new class 756 trains are now running on the core Valleys lines—part of the £800 million investment in new rolling stock. And today, 78 per cent of trains in Wales are brand new, transforming what was once the oldest fleet in the UK into one of the most modern, and new trains continue to be regularly introduced to the network.

Deputy Llywydd, that's not incremental change, that's real transformation, and we should acknowledge it. We promised to turn a Victorian railway built for coal into a modern metro, and we've done it. The £1.1 billion upgrade in electrification of the core Valleys lines isn't just infrastructure—it's a statement of intent to the people of Wales to deliver a greener, more connected Wales.

And it's not just about rail: we absolutely agree with the committee that bus services are the backbone of a public transport system. The Chair said that very specifically, and I completely agree, and we welcome the recommendations. I won't go through them, but we welcome them all—we absolutely agree with you. And through the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, we're reregulating services so that people come before profit.

Transport for Wales will lead franchising in partnership with councils, delivering one joined-up, reliable network. Already, integrated ticketing is no longer a buzzword—it's absolutely happening, with new options for TrawsCymru customers, the 1bws scheme in north Wales capping daily and weekly fares, and the £1 bus fare pilot for young people. A record success so far, being extended to five to 15-year-olds next month.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it's clear that when you remove cost barriers, people do choose public transport. This is what integration looks like—one network, one timetable, one ticket. We're delivering that vision right across Wales for rail, bus and active travel together, in line with the 'Llwybr Newydd' strategy. I'm really looking forward to the Senedd's scrutiny of the bus Bill as part of that journey, because it is transformational.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Would you take an intervention?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Of course, John.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

It's on the subject of active travel. The report reflects concern in terms of the regionalisation of funding for active travel and concern that that will weaken the progress that we've seen towards active travel in Wales. The report asks for reassurance from the Welsh Government that, within those regional budgets, there will be appropriate prioritisation for active travel. Are you able to give that reassurance, Cabinet Secretary?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, John. As part of the regional transport planning, which goes alongside the regional strategic planning for the networks, that will happen. So you will have an integrated system. It isn't just being dissipated to all the councils; there is a regional transport plan to go with that. So, yes, I can, I think, happily give that reassurance.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as I was saying, Transport for Wales is driving some serious innovation. We've seen 150,000 journeys using tap on, tap off pay-as-you-go on the core Valleys lines, and 40 per cent of bus journeys in north Wales are now contactless, which is a real step forward. Although we do agree with the committee's point about concessionary fares and integration, and we are definitely taking that on board.

But through partnership, we've shown public sector models work. When private operators like Avanti West Coast and Great Western Railway were paralysed by strikes, Transport for Wales kept all services running, thanks to our social partnership approach and our fair dialogue with our unions. That is something to be shouted about and achieved. It doesn't happen easily and we are very, very grateful to them for that approach.

I'm particularly delighted, as Julie Morgan highlighted, that Transport for Wales has appointed its first woman operational director, its first 50:50 gender split driver cohort, getting into the areas that women don't normally get into, and, of course, it continues to work closely, as the Chair acknowledged, with Oasis, the Welsh Refugee Council and the Muslim Council of Wales, to ensure inclusion is not an afterthought, it's fully embedded. Transport for Wales will work very hard to continue on that journey to make sure that integration happens.

In terms of accountability, a new performance board has strengthened alignment between Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government, improving planning, sharpening budgets and ensuring real-time accountability. And our key performance indicator reporting is improving. It's not just box ticking, it's a meaningful KPI to ensure transparency. We're happy, of course, to share that reporting with the committee, which is why the response is as it is, in principle, as we develop the KPIs. Because, I agree, passengers deserve to know how we're doing with no hiding and no spin on the line that they're concerned about.

Next year, Transport for Wales turns 10. It's been a decade of building something from scratch, a decade of learning, adapting, improving and, as a former transport Minister, holding our nerve. Transport for Wales is now a UK leader in transport reform, enhancing the scope, quality and reliability of its services, and the people of Wales are responding with their patronage and their trust. Just to give us an example, on the Coryton line that Julie Morgan highlighted, cancellations are now just at 5.6 per cent and on-time performance was at 95.7 per cent—that's up by 12.1 per cent year on year.

I do think Transport for Wales have worked very hard to take on board feedback from customers and from local Members of the Senedd, and I think they really are showing that improvement. The committee's scrutiny sharpens that focus and we're grateful for it, and we also welcome the engagement of local Members of the Senedd, like Julie Morgan and others, who work very closely with Transport for Wales on very specific issues so that they can be addressed at that level. Because, ultimately, this is about one thing: it's about building the transport system Wales deserves—a modern, inclusive, resilient and fit-for-the-future transport system. Not in five years, not tomorrow, but right now. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you to everyone who has participated.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you all. I think, Sam, you distilled, I suppose, some of the sentiments of the committee in three words: transparency, reliability and accountability. You could have sat down after those three words, but we enjoyed your contribution, and thank you for that.

Julie, you're right; gender balance is still a work in progress, isn't it, particularly when it comes to operational roles. As a number of Members said, a lot of new rolling stock has come online, so that not only lifts the standard of the service, but it allows greater frequency of service as well. And for the metro service, certainly, you want to get to a position where people just rock up to the platform and they know that if they don't jump on it now, there'll be another one coming behind it in 10 minutes. That is a game changer. When we get to that point, then that really is, hopefully, a game changer.

Peredur is right too, I think. It's easy to accept recommendations, not so easy always to deliver, and the risk or the problem has been historically that maybe Welsh Government has over-promised when it comes to Transport for Wales, but we're now getting to a point, I think, where we were hoping to get to much, much sooner. In relation to any formal influence we have on GBR and the UK financial investments et cetera, well, as it happens, the committee will be scrutinising Lord Hendy, who is the Minister of State at the Department for Transport, tomorrow. So, we'll certainly be putting some of these questions to him.

Rhys, an interesting contribution. I've been waiting for trains when I've been told that there's no driver available, but certainly that's something that we can pursue in our scrutiny of NRW—not NRW, Transport for Wales. But this is the point I wanted to make: we regularly have discussions about how more and more duties are being thrown at NRW, with maybe not always the corresponding level of resource to be able to deliver. There's a risk, I think—. We've talked about active travel, we know about the rail, the bus franchising, and that massive piece of work is coming down the line. We have to guard against a similar issue arising here. It is important, Carolyn, that people feel safe, and there were reports in the media today, weren't there, about how sexual offences on trains are up by a third since 2015, albeit on a UK level. It would be interesting to see what the figures are for Wales. So, that certainly—

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Will you take an intervention?

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I will, yes.