Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 1 October 2025

314 contributions from 40 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome, all, to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. The first question is from Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Wrexham-Deeside hydrogen pipeline project? OQ63158

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The HyLine Gogledd project has the potential to provide businesses with the clean energy solutions they need, delivering on our commitment to jobs and growth. We will continue to work with the developers and industry through the north-east Wales industrial decarbonisation cluster as the project completes its feasibility phases.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That's really good to hear. The plan to have a pipeline supplying hydrogen across the whole of north-east Wales has been talked about for several years. I've met with many businesses based on the Wrexham industrial estate who are concerned about the current energy infrastructure right across this estate—one of the largest industrial estates in western Europe. So, they very much welcomed Wales and West Utilities' recent announcement. Could you clarify what discussions you've had with Wales and West Utilities, and also with the Manchester and Liverpool metro mayors, who I know are interested in the north-west of England linking in to this hydrogen pipeline?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question and the opportunity, really, to highlight how important this project is for Wales. It could create up to 6,000 local jobs, helping to create a cross-border clean energy corridor, which we want to see both sides of that border, complementing the cross-border HyNet cluster in north Wales and north-west England. An assessment of the benefits through the current phase has identified that HyLine Gogledd could save up to 27 million tonnes of cumulative carbon dioxide emissions by 2058, generating £17 billion of economic value and unlocking social value of up to £3.3 billion. When I first read that, I had to read it twice, because those figures are really incredible. So, it's really important that we continue that cross-border working to bring this project to life. My understanding is that, subject to approval for UK Government funding in 2026, Wales and West Utilities aim to commence the next phase of the project's development, consisting of the front-end engineering design work alongside planning preparation.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'm grateful to Lesley Griffiths for raising this important issue, because a sector like this, or an opportunity like this, is not just a huge opportunity for Wrexham and Deeside, but of course has an impact across north Wales. As you've said, Cabinet Secretary, it's not just about that clean energy, which is really important, it's about the jobs, investment and making sure our part of the world is part of the future of industry and energy. This is a significant project, as you're aware, but I'm sure also, Cabinet Secretary, you're aware of other businesses in Wales that are also looking at the opportunities around hydrogen. I had the privilege just on Friday of meeting with Syngas, who are a business in Deeside in north Wales. They've pioneered a waste-to-hydrogen process, which ticks many boxes in terms of green outcomes, but also looks to the future as to what hydrogen can provide. So, as well as these big areas of investment and these big opportunities that have been highlighted already this afternoon, I'm wondering how the Welsh Government is looking to work with some of those smaller businesses who are innovators in this area, and how the Welsh Government can support them in their projects in the future as well.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Clearly, Wales is really rich in renewable energy resources, and that does then provide us with tremendous opportunities for low-carbon hydrogen production and, particularly, to be leaders in innovation in this space. This is why we've been really keen to publish a Welsh Government policy on hydrogen. So, we'll be doing so later this year, following the consultation that took place. It did generate some substantial interest from various industrial sectors, and right through the supply chain. So, it's the intention to publish that shortly. It will make clear the importance of hydrogen for Welsh energy production and industry, and encourage investment in innovative projects that support sustainable decarbonisation.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Blue hydrogen is an expensive distraction and is looking for continued fossil fuel guarantees even with carbon capture. It's failed in 10 out of 13 global projects and it is dirtier than actually burning natural gas. The new HyNet carbon dioxide pipeline part of this project crosses 26 watercourses, including the River Dee. It runs through communities, including a play area, agricultural land, it impacts the water vole, the Deeside newt special area of conservation, otters, badger sets, ancient hedgerows and grasslands. Mitigation has been poor, detailed ecological studies have not been completed, yet building work is starting next year. In Wales, we have the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and we are a member of the Beyond Oil & Gas Alliance. So, how will the Welsh Government ensure that due diligence is carried out for our communities and the natural environment for this scheme?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, Carolyn Thomas just reminds us, really, how important the regulatory framework is in this and all similar instances. We do know, though, that international studies undertaken by organisations, including the Climate Change Committee, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and the International Energy Agency have all concluded that hydrogen is likely to be part of that pathway towards net zero. But we are committed to doing so in a responsible way. So, any proposal for hydrogen will require planning permission, environmental permits and technical and economic licences for transport and storage activities, and each of those will have demanding technical and economic requirements that have to be fulfilled before any consent is granted. Each regulatory regime requires the developer to provide detailed information and evidence on processes, impacts, monitoring and mitigation before any activities can take place.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. Question 2, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

2. What is the Government doing to grow the co-operative sector in Wales? OQ63175

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch. The Welsh Government supports co-operative growth through Social Business Wales, offering specialist advice and funding to help start and scale up co-operative and employee-owned businesses. It backs community ownership, promotes co-operative models in social care and housing and invests in digital inclusion and net-zero initiatives.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

As my colleague Luke Fletcher said in his economic paper from earlier this year:

'Wales is the historic home of the co-operative movement, and it’s time that we fully embraced and learned from that radical history to drive a new era of inclusive, sustainable development.'

Despite our proud history, communities in Wales are the least empowered in the UK to protect land and assets, according to a landmark report produced by the Institute of Welsh Affairs. One of those reasons is the failure of successive Governments in Wales to implement community right-to-buy legislation that was introduced by the Tories in England, as well as the SNP, who developed stronger rights for communities in Scotland. If such legislation was to be, as Luke suggests, underpinned by a new financial package to support the growth of community ownership, we could usher in a new age of co-operatives in Welsh businesses, which would deliver real benefits for our economy and our communities. Minister, why hasn't Labour acted to give our communities the rights and, indeed, the potential that communities in other nations in these islands already enjoy?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, diolch, Peredur Owen Griffiths, for that question. In Luke Fletcher's paper, it was one of the things I did agree with, where he's absolutely right to say that Wales has a proud history. We have, Presiding Officer, been consistently at the forefront of co-operative innovation. There are historic examples, aren't there, particularly of the workers at Tower Colliery. I hear the Member's points on legislation. I'm not going to go into details of legislation—that's not my responsibility, although Tom Giffard might want to try and tempt me to do that. He pointed to why we don't give communities the power. Well, I can provide positive examples where we have given communities the power. Presiding Officer, there's one in your own constituency of employee-owned businesses. There's a number of employee-owned businesses and co-operative models across Wales. There's a recent example in the housing Minister's constituency of Newport, where the Corn Exchange worked alongside Le Pub to develop a co-operative model and music venue. So, that was direct support from the Welsh Government, with Social Business Wales, where we have empowered communities to take action as they want to. There is further dedicated support for the co-operative sector through Social Business Wales, through the Development Bank of Wales and through Social Investment Cymru. I'd encourage Peredur Owen Griffiths to talk to his community about those opportunities there and encourage those organisations to have a look and grow the co-operative sector, as we want to do in Wales.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, of course, you're right to highlight that employee-owned businesses are an important part of the co-operative movement, and they do help keep businesses rooted in their communities, providing quality long-term jobs. Employees who are co-owners also tend to have greater job satisfaction and improve well-being in that workplace. Can you please provide an update on the programme for government commitment to double the number of employee-owned businesses in Wales?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank Joyce Watson for just highlighting the importance of employee ownership and employee-owned businesses in Wales? Indeed, the example in your own constituency, Llywydd, of Aber Instruments, is a fine example, and the Member represents the region, as does the First Minister.

I’m very proud of the programme for government commitment and the commitment that we made at the start of this Government term to double the number of employee-owned businesses. I can provide assurance to the Member that we’ve not only met that commitment some time ago now, but gone beyond that commitment, and we’re making further progress on employee ownership.

The Member points to some of the benefits of quality, well-paid jobs and job security in the long term. Those are just some of the benefits, Presiding Officer, on offer to workers who are employed in employee-ownership models. That’s exactly the type of support that this Welsh Labour Government wants to go on demonstrating here—that we support working people, we support them through initiatives like employee ownership. We’re in the process of the single biggest upgrade to workers' rights in a generation, unlike other parties, unlike Reform, unlike the Conservatives, who actively seek to undermine working people and their rights.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

There was so much of what the Minister said there that I agreed with, but one of the sectors that has seen the co-operative movement the most—that many don’t fully appreciate—is within the agricultural sector. In Wales, we’ve got Clynderwen and Cardiganshire Farmers—the CCF—also known locally as the 'co-op', where farmers can purchase feed and all sorts of equipment for their farm. And it’s a very successful co-operative. So, in terms of the agricultural sector, what work are you doing with the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs to understand the value of the co-operative sector to agriculture and the impact that the sustainable farming scheme may have on that, given the advertised job losses from the economic impact assessment that was published yesterday?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Sam. And I’m pleased that you were able to support some of what I said there; I wouldn’t expect you to support all of it all of the time. When it comes to agriculture and the co-operative sector, the co-operative sector as a whole plays an important part right across the board. We mentioned some of the organisations and the sectors that have been involved today, and the agriculture sector is one of them, and I’m very pleased that you’ve been able to bring that to our attention with the example that you’ve given.

Look, I want the co-operative sector to grow, and that includes the agriculture sector. I’d happily take forward a conversation with the Cabinet Secretary to see how we can further promote the work that we’re already doing to support them through Social Business Wales, through the Development Bank of Wales and Business Wales. I’ll happily have a conversation with the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps he can feed into the networks that he has to promote the growth of the co-operative sector and all of what that brings to agriculture and the Welsh economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions not from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, both the Welsh and UK economies are stuck in a period of what can only be defined as 'sluggish'. As we approach the autumn budget, households and businesses in Wales face deepening uncertainty, with the Chancellor poised to raise taxes again. Inflation stands at 3.8 per cent, well above the 2 per cent target, eroding savings and stifling confidence. Indeed, as was famously once said,

'Inflation is the parent of unemployment. It is the unseen robber of those who have saved'.

Given these pressures, what specific measures are you pressing the Chancellor to include in the budget to support Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’m very grateful for that question. Clearly, I’m not going to speculate as to what the Chancellor might say in the budget, but I think that the Welsh Government has been very clear for a long time on its priorities and the things that they would wish the UK Government to be delivering for Wales. Clearly, the finance secretary has had extensive discussions with counterparts in Westminster about fiscal flexibilities. These arguments are well known to all colleagues now, I think, in the Senedd, in terms of our borrowing powers, in terms of those year-end flexibilities, and in terms of uprating the reserve and our other fiscal flexibilities in line with inflation, to recognise the changes since they were first set back in 2016. So, those are clearly priorities.

Beyond that, of course, the Welsh Government has been promoting Wylfa as a particularly important site for new nuclear in Wales, and we continue to make those arguments to the UK Government. Alongside that, of course, we're keen to see continued investment in our public services. Our last budget had significant additional funding that the Welsh Government was able to deploy against our priorities of health and local government and other public services, and clearly we're keen to ensure that we're still able to invest in those services, because we're clearly seeing the benefits. Colleagues will have seen the improvements to waiting times in health, for example. That didn't happen by accident; that happened because the UK Government decided to provide additional funding, which we put towards that priority within health.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you may not wish to speculate what's in the budget, but we know what's going to come from the Labour Chancellor, because it's always the same economic mismanagement: higher taxes, higher unemployment and people and businesses worse off. Because, under Rachel Reeves, the yields on 30-year UK Government bonds has climbed to 5.73 per cent, the highest level since 1998—higher than any time under a Conservative Government. For Wales, such record borrowing costs risk squeezing public finances and curbing investment in growth and infrastructure. So, what risks do you see this creating for Welsh economic policy, and how should the Welsh Government respond to safeguard Wales's interests?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I will say that this UK Government has only had just over a year to clear up 14 years of mismanagement under the Tories, and it just beggars belief to hear the contribution when we consider the impact that Liz Truss and her budget had on the UK finances and on the UK economy.

So, in terms of what I would like to see the UK Government doing, clearly, it's been steadfast in terms of the commitments it's made under the industrial strategy. We're in those discussions at the moment about a defence cluster in Wales, for example, to bring in additional funding and make sure that Wales is able to benefit from the £250 million that has been allocated towards defence, and we're well placed to do that. And also, when you look at the clean energy opportunities as well—again, huge opportunities for Great British Energy to be invested in, alongside Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, and we're having really good discussions in that space.

Clearly, there's a long way to go in terms of clearing up the mess left by the Tories, but I think that the focus that the UK Government has on its industrial strategy, which we're fully supportive of, will help to grow the economy.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Clearing up a mess, Cabinet Secretary? It was a so-called £22 billion black hole when Labour came to power. Well, guess what it is now, after Rachel Reeves and only 15 months? It's a £50 billion black hole. That's what Labour does to the economy, it crashes it. Because we've seen it: the 30-year gilt at the highest since 1998; the Office for Budget Responsibility is preparing to downgrade growth and productivity forecasts; and we know that that £22 billion black hole has more than doubled to £50 billion, showing that Labour can't be trusted with the economy. That means there'll be less investment, fewer opportunities and greater pressure on households and businesses here in Wales. So, in light of this, how can the Welsh Government credibly defend Labour's record on economic management?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Welsh Government has been working really hard, even when we had those austere years under the Conservatives, to make sure that Wales was able to put itself on that international stage, which is what we're going to do in a very big way now in November and December, as we move towards that international summit. So, even through the years of the Conservatives, the Welsh Government, over the past four years, has seen inward investment figures increase. And that doesn't happen by accident either, that happens because of the amazing work done by our teams in our offices across the globe, which the Conservatives would scrap. So, those teams are spending every single day talking to businesses, bringing businesses and investment to Wales, and that has been happening even during those austere years.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson now, Heledd Fychan, to be answered by the Minister for culture. Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, does the Welsh Government and do you support the devolution of broadcasting?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Presiding Officer, there's a written statement on this matter, isn't there? I think it was only issued in May. I refer the Member to the written statement on broadcasting, which I made. And I answered the same question in committee just two weeks ago, and the Member can also refer herself to that record.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you. I'm asking the question because I'm unclear on the position of Welsh Government and yourself as Minister, which is why I have to keep asking the question. The response I've had is that you're still considering your response. Well, given that the expert panel report was published over two years ago now, and said that the devolution of broadcasting was both necessary and doable, and further warned that the current system isn't working, and that Wales needs more control over its media to protect democracy, support Welsh language content and make sure people are held accountable—. So, given those warnings, why has the Welsh Government rolled back from their previous commitment on supporting the devolution of broadcasting? And why do I have to keep on asking the same question and not get an answer?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Presiding Officer, the answer remains the same. The Member can look at the record from the written statement published on 12 May, and that follows the expert panel on broadcasting’s report last year. The Member also knows I've committed to updating the Chamber on the work that I'm hoping to commission, to draw together the technical advice on the five pathways to the devolution of broadcasting, as identified in that expert panel report, and I look forward to doing that in the near future.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. I'm still very unclear on what will have happened in the two years since the publication of that expert panel report. Will anything have changed by the next election? And will you, by then, have finally made your mind up on whether you support the devolution of broadcasting or not? Because, for the record, I'm clear—I support the devolution of broadcasting. We would take measures to ensure that it was devolved, do everything in our power. Will you?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, look, Presiding Officer, I’m very clear that the current position of broadcasting is not adequate for Wales. And as I've said in the written statement, in committee just two weeks ago, and three times already today, I'll provide the Senedd with an update on the work that I'm hoping to commission on the five pathways to devolution, as identified in that expert panel report. I think that's important work that needs to be taken forward, and it's important work that I'll update the Senedd on in that time.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on inward investment into Wales? OQ63155

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Inward investment plays a critical role in the Welsh economy, with almost 1,500 foreign-owned companies employing nearly 175,000 people. For the fourth consecutive year, Wales has seen an increase in foreign direct investment projects.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Overseas-owned companies are hugely important to the Welsh economy, and they employ more than 174,000 people in Wales. Results published by the Department for Business and Trade in their annual report on foreign direct investment in the UK in June showed an increase of over 30 per cent in new jobs being created from foreign direct investment into Wales. That is really good news for the Welsh economy, and better news for those people who are employed in those jobs and the communities that thrive on that money being kept within. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that this increase in foreign direct investment demonstrates confidence in Wales from overseas industries?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I absolutely agree with that statement from Joyce Watson, and I refer, actually, to the report that has just been referenced, which is the annual report from the Department for Business and Trade. Another startling fact from that is that more than half of those investments that were brought into Wales in the last year actually were done with the support of Welsh Government or UK Government. We provide a whole range of support. It's not always financial. It does include a range of interventions, from advising companies on potential sites and premises, identifying skills and talent, assisting with market research and making introductions to banks, business networks and academia.

I've mentioned our overseas offices. They are integral in bringing those businesses here, but so too are our teams here in Business Wales and the development bank. So, I'm really proud of the work that we're doing. It really does send a message to the world, I think, that Wales is open for business. I've referenced the investment summit. We're really looking forward to that and to showcasing some of the areas where we think we have real potential for growth and to be world leaders, as we already are, for example, in compound semiconductors, but also tech, clean energy, advanced manufacturing, creative industries, life sciences, as well as taking the opportunity at that investment summit to showcase some of our capital investment prospects that we have here in Wales as well.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Well, we all know that inward investment in Wales is decreasing and, indeed, it did so from 2,500 in 2016-17 to 2,470 in 2024-25. Jobs safeguarded by inward investment also decreased from nearly 9,000 in 2016-17 to 1,652 in 2024-25. This is only the tip of the iceberg. We have the lowest employment rate in the UK, the highest economic inactivity, the largest business rates for small and medium-sized businesses, and this is all adding to the image of Wales not being business friendly. Does the Cabinet Secretary not really agree with me that fostering positive international relations and doing more to actively encourage inward investment should remain a clear priority for the Welsh Government, but it does not need such expensive offices overseas costing our taxpayers a lot of money?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I still agree with Joyce Watson rather than Janet Finch-Saunders on the issue of foreign direct investment, because we are seeing huge successes here in Wales, but also businesses that come to Wales and then they stay and they stick around and they expand. So, we recently celebrated 50 years of Panasonic here in Wales. Now, that is a business that is really, really evangelical about the support that it gets from Welsh Government, about the skilled workers it can employ here in Wales, and it's very pleased to be able to tell that story to others across the globe. And you'll see those stories right across Wales in terms of businesses that have been here for the long term. So, I'm really proud of our offer here in Wales. We are world leading in a number of sectors, and I think that the job really is for us to be positive and to promote the excellent skills that we have here, the opportunities for growth and the supportive Government that we have here in Wales, rather than talking things down.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Of course, Cabinet Secretary, while we welcome any sort of improvement, unfortunately, there's been too little investment of any significance over numerous Labour Governments since the Assembly, now Senedd, began. For 26 years, Wales's economy has been held back, stifled by a lack of vision, lack of ambition and by not creating the right environment for business. With high taxes, high business rates and too much red tape, it's clear to me that we need to unblock the main artery into Wales and build that M4 relief road, we need to reverse the default 20 mph, we need to cut Welsh rates of income tax by 1p or 2p and we need to build roads, a decent transport infrastructure connecting all of Wales. Doesn't the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that we need to keep our economy going, attract big business, cut taxes and enable them to thrive?

Cabinet Secretary, our biggest competitors for inward investment are over the border in Bristol and the north-east of England, particularly. Those are contracts that we often lose out to. The question needs to be asked, Cabinet Secretary: why is Wales not winning those contracts and getting that inward investment, and what action are you taking on this? Your Government flirted with the idea of increasing income tax, but surely, don't you agree with me that we need to cut income tax if we are going to attract significant inward investment into Wales? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, Wales has actually seen the second highest increase of any nation or region in the UK in terms of foreign direct investment, as in the statistics that Joyce Watson highlighted at the start of this question. So, Wales is clearly performing in a very strong way and outperforming almost every other part of the United Kingdom, so I think that our message is really, really strong in terms of the support that we can offer businesses. We'll have the opportunity to debate in a bit more detail this afternoon the implications of tax choices that can be made here in Wales. Colleagues should be aware, though, that by reducing Welsh rates of income tax by one penny, that would reduce the funding available to the Welsh Government by £299 million, and I think that it's incumbent on colleagues, when making those proposals, to provide a balanced approach to it, so we can understand, then, where those cuts would be made to account for that £299 million. Those arguments can be made, but I think you have to engage with both sides of that argument in terms of where you would cut as well from the Welsh Government in order to allow the cut in tax.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

4. Which parts of the economy has the Welsh Government identified as growth sectors? OQ63143

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

In Wales we have identified the four high-growth sectors of advanced manufacturing, including defence, clean energies, digital and technologies, and creative. And there are also two high-growth potential sectors, which are life sciences and financial services.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. According to research, private investment in artificial AI products has rapidly increased in recent years, and is expected to continue to increase rapidly. This is probably the major growth sector in the world. As companies have moved to more hybrid and homeworking arrangements, the role of digital security has become even more vital, with a substantial growth in employment. You mentioned life sciences, but employment, including in pharmaceuticals, has rapidly increased and they are areas of substantial economic growth and they're continuing to grow. Green energy, which you also mentioned, is still seeing major growth around the world. According to the International Energy Agency, clean energy accounted for 10 per cent of gross domestic product growth globally in 2023. What support will the Welsh Government provide to support these economic sectors, and why were at least two of them not in your list?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I would include artificial intelligence under the headline of tech and digital, and Welsh Government is absolutely supporting that. So, the UK AI opportunities action plan has set out that they look to maximise the opportunities for Wales, with at least one AI growth zone located in Wales. So, again, that's something that we're pressing the UK Government for now in terms of clarity so that we can get moving on some of these things.

But we haven't been waiting. We've been making strategic investments in terms of the land and the property that we have here in Wales to enable that particular sector. For example, we've seen mega campuses now being built by Vantage and also by Microsoft, allowing the AI capacity here in Wales to grow. And, of course, you'll have heard the First Minister's announcement about the department for AI within the Welsh Government, but also the strategic AI advisory group, which she set up, so that we're able to access international expertise. Just at the last meeting last week, we were able to explore our AI plan for Wales, which I hope to publish in due course.

Again, the life sciences economy here in Wales is thriving. That's one of our high-growth potential sectors and strategically primed, I think, for continued growth. Interestingly, our last discussion was about inward investment, but, actually, life sciences is one of our big areas for exports as well. We had great success following the MEDICA fair in Dusseldorf just last year as well.

And then, in terms of green jobs and clean energy, again, that's one of our top sectors, which we hope to showcase at the investment summit later this year. Colleagues will be familiar with the huge opportunities that we've identified, particularly in the Celtic sea, which I know will be of particular interest to Mike Hedges's constituents.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

One of the sectors of the Welsh economy that certainly doesn't feel like it is a priority growth sector is our tourism economy. A number of tourism businesses in the part of the world that you and I both represent, in Gower, have contacted me since the Cabinet Secretary for finance's comments from a fortnight ago. I asked him about the 182-day rule. He described those operating in the sector as filled with 'hobbyists'. He said the market was over-saturated. Since then, my inbox has been flooded with constituents who have come forward condemning those out-of-touch and uninformed comments. They're your constituents as well as mine, so I wonder whether you would take the opportunity to condemn those comments on the record and say that this is a Welsh Government that will back the tourism sector and do what the Welsh Conservatives would do, which is scrap the tourism tax and scrap the 182-day rule.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Clearly, tourism is a priority sector for the Welsh Government. We're aware that not every sector that is important to the Welsh economy is name-checked and given a special focus within the UK Government's industrial strategy, but that doesn't mean that Welsh Government is not putting significant focus on that. And I would include with that—. With tourism, I would include agriculture, I would include our food and drink industry as well, as being clear areas where we have priority and we are committed to.

So, in terms of tourism, I know the proposals around registration have actually been warmly welcomed by the tourism sector, because there are many people within the tourism sector who do and are aware of some operators who just let properties for a very small number of nights a year. I think perhaps those are the hobbyists that Mark Drakeford was referring to, certainly not people who would be writing to you and writing to me as constituents, as people who are operating tourism businesses.

I did meet with the Professional Association of Self-Caterers recently. I had a really good meeting exploring the impact of Welsh Government policies with them. I know that the finance Minister is also keen to explore that 182 days and what we can do pragmatically to address some of those things. I believe there's a consultation open at the moment, so I'd encourage colleagues to have a say on that.

But there's no doubt that tourism is a priority sector. We'll have again the opportunity to talk about the approach to the tourism levy in the debate later on this afternoon.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

5. How is the Welsh Government supporting the energy sector in North Wales? OQ63149

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

North Wales is a hub for clean energy investment, supporting jobs and growth. We continue to support the tidal stream industry at Morlais. Through Ynni Cymru, we are investing in local community energy projects, and Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru will bring significant investment to the region from their Clocaenog Dau development.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. In questioning the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales here in July, I referred to a recent report by Oxford Economics commissioned by the Nuclear Industry Association, which detailed the benefits delivered within the sector, with the Welsh civil nuclear sector generating £850 million in gross value added in 2024, up 20 per cent since 2021, largely driven by Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C developments in England, and 830 direct jobs in Wales, with 13,400 jobs in Wales supported by the sector. The report highlighted that if a new nuclear power station is built at Wylfa north Wales could see an economic contribution comparable to that experienced in the south-west of England, where Hinkley Point C is located and nuclear gross value added reached £4 billion in 2024, up 50 per cent since 2021.

It was then announced last month both that Rolls Royce SMR had been announced as the UK's preferred bidder for small modular reactors and that a new deal for up to 12 advanced modular reactors in Hartlepool had been agreed. In this context, what specific steps is the Welsh Government therefore taking to secure the development of a new nuclear facility at Wylfa, and how is it working with UK Government and industry stakeholders to ensure that north Wales benefits from the economic and employment opportunities that this could bring?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think that we're both in agreement, certainly, about the potential for Wylfa, and Welsh Government has long supported the principle of new nuclear projects at both Trawsfynydd and Wylfa, recognising the substantial contribution that the sector has made to high-value employment opportunities in north Wales over the past 60 years. I had the opportunity to meet the chair of Great British Energy—Nuclear in the last couple of weeks, again to set out the Welsh Government's support for Wylfa, and, clearly, I've had the opportunity as well to speak directly to the Secretary of State with responsibility for energy, Ed Miliband, expressing the Welsh Government's support for Wylfa as a potential site as well. And we continue to make those arguments and make them very strongly, and I'm very grateful to any colleague who feels able to support that.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

6. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact of nitrate and phosphate regulations on the planning process in Mid and West Wales? OQ63154

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The recent release of condition assessments by Natural Resources Wales for marine special areas of conservation has led to planning authorities in west Wales pausing consideration of some planning applications. Meanwhile, high phosphorus levels in river special areas of conservation mean that many development proposals need to adopt nutrient mitigation measures.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch. Minister, I recently spoke with a construction company that raised serious concerns about the impact of a house building moratorium placed on both the Burry inlet catchment area in Carmarthenshire and the Milford Haven waterway catchment area in Pembrokeshire. The decision was made on the advice of Natural Resources Wales due to excessive dissolved inorganic nitrogen levels harming their respective ecosystems. But you will also be aware of the immense need for new housing, particularly affordable housing, in these communities. As a result of this moratorium, at least 889 affordable homes are now frozen in the planning process, delaying access to much-needed housing in these areas and with the potential loss of hundreds of construction jobs and reduced economic activity. So, given the urgency of the matter, can you provide an update on the First Minister's recently announced taskforce assigned to find the right balance between environmental and housing needs, and can you also explain how the Welsh Government intends to tackle the various implications caused by these nitrate regulations and explain how the Government will work constructively with various stakeholders to find a positive way forward?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question. Clearly, the public want to have clean rivers and seas that support biodiversity, but then they also want to have homes for everyone as well. We're very clear that these two asks can be delivered alongside each other, but it will require all sectors to work together. And I agree that the pause on some planning applications is hurting the development industry, particularly for smaller firms and in circumstances where planning permission has been granted but some conditions need to be discharged. A range of house building is continuing in the impacted regions. However, collective action will be required. So, I'm really pleased that the First Minister has launched that taskforce and given it such personal attention.

So, there's a range of actions already under way. For example, officials are preparing case studies that will apply the recently published Welsh Government planning guidance to test the practical application to affordable housing schemes. I hope that that will give all local planning authorities greater confidence on how to move forward.

Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales are working across diverse sectors to reduce nutrient pollution, including targeted farm inspections, reviewing environmental permits, and advocating for record levels of investment in water company infrastructure through the price review process. There's also a comprehensive programme of work that involves Natural Resources Wales and Dŵr Cymru, which is looking at improving water quality and reducing nitrogen levels in the marine SACs.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, what we do see, though, is a postcode lottery across my constituency—some areas where Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water have made investments in phosphate stripping technology, which is a positive, but there are also lots of areas that are still stuck in limbo, that cannot get planning applications processed, because Welsh Water won't make the investment, or they say they will, but maybe in about 20 or 30 years' time. So, I'm just interested: what sort of pressure is Welsh Government putting on Welsh Water, considering the record amounts of money that they're giving their executives, to actually make sure that they are investing in our infrastructure to bring it up to speed with modern technology, to make sure that we can get those planning applications moving through the system?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Certainly, Welsh Water has a significant role to play. As I mentioned, there is a comprehensive programme of work, which involves Welsh Government, NRW and Dŵr Cymru, looking at improving water quality, and, obviously, we want to see more investment in that space. Also, we need to look at intensive poultry units. I know that there are some planning applications that are still in the system because Welsh Government has taken the decision to undertake a review into the regulation and enforcement of spreading organic materials on land. I know some colleagues have written to me on those particular issues as well.

But this is a situation where there will be roles for everybody: Welsh Government, local authorities, Natural Resources Wales, Welsh Water and the agriculture sector as well. We all need to be working on this together. We actually can get to a place, I think, where we're able to continue building, but also make sure that we clean up our waters, and that's definitely where we need to be.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

7. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the environmental and community impact of the proposed Denbigh quarry extension and how will local concerns be taken into account in the decision-making process? OQ63157

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The proposed Denbigh quarry extension is subject to a live planning appeal. Any comment on the matter prior to the determination of the appeal could be prejudicial to fair consideration of the matter, and I'm afraid that I can't comment further.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Well, thank you for that very closed response, Cabinet Secretary. The proposed Denbigh quarry extension has generated nearly 300 objections from residents and businesses, and for very good reason. Denbighshire County Council has already refused this application, citing unacceptable risks to health, biodiversity and community well-being.

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 makes it clear that decisions must not compromise the needs of tomorrow for the short-term gain of today, yet this proposal would bring blasting and heavy traffic within 200m of homes, destroy green corridors linking sites of special scientific interest, and threaten local air quality, without independent monitoring of dust or radon. So, it's safe to say that I have grave concerns about this, Cabinet Secretary. Critically, as well, the North Wales Regional Aggregates Working Party confirms that Denbighshire already has over 20 years of permitted reserves, so no pressing need for the extension. Given that this appeal will shortly be sitting on your desk, Cabinet Secretary, what assessment has been made of the environmental and community impacts, and can you also confirm that these will be taken into consideration in your decision-making process?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, Gareth Davies had the opportunity, I think, to set out in some depth his particular concerns, but clearly I'm not able to comment any more on the specific circumstances of the site, because that could prejudice the role of Welsh Ministers, should the case come before us at a later date, for example, at an appeal. I always want to helpful, but, unfortunately, when we are in the middle of a live planning appeal, I really can't say any more.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Personally, I feel that this particular case is a litmus test for the importance given to the local voice within the planning system. I appreciate that you can't refer to the individual case in the original question, but let's say there was an application made where the local community is opposed, where the local council is opposed, where Members of this Senedd across all parties are opposed to that application, if such an application were to be approved, what would you think that would tell us about whose interests are being protected and promoted within the Welsh planning system?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Again, I'm not going to speculate on hypothetical planning applications either. I do think it's important that local residents are able to set out their material considerations, including their public concerns, in relation to the effect a development has on a community. Clearly, it's the duty of local planning authorities then to decide on each application on its own planning merits. They do have to take account of the substance of local views, relevant local and national planning policies and any other material considerations. But, as I say, I'm not going to comment on specific or hypothetical planning applications.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

8. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the growth of grassroots sport? OQ63168

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch. Sport changes lives, and we've given £33 million to Sport Wales this year, funding 3G pitches, pool improvements and schemes to make sport accessible for all. As the First Minister outlined yesterday, investment at every level, from grass-roots to elite sport, turning ambition into action for every child and every club.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for the answer.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

As the Minister says, grass-roots sport is a vital way of ensuring that our young people have access to sports in their local areas and brings together communities in a cohesive way. I was in touch with you earlier this year about a fantastic grass-roots basketball group in Cardiff North, called Tribal Basketball. They've done so much over the years to grow basketball as a sport in the constituency, and they've also worked with Cardiff Council on issues like food and fun, but they've found it incredibly difficult to find a permanent base. They're actually working with Corpus Christi Catholic High School now, and the Welsh Government has helped them to develop premises on the site. But the process of going through all that has been very onerous and time-consuming. Is there anything that the Minister can suggest for groups, these grass-roots groups, in order to help them find bases in the community?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank Julie Morgan for raising this matter today in the Senedd, and, indeed, for writing to me earlier in the summer? As Members of the Senedd will know, all of the Welsh Government funding for sport is channelled through Sport Wales, and then on to the recognised national governing bodies, and, in this case, that would be Basketball Wales.

Llywydd, I've been very impressed with Basketball Wales and the growth of basketball as a whole across the nation, but I've been particularly impressed to read and hear directly from Julie Morgan of the work of Tribal Basketball in Cardiff North. I think they've done some inspiring work, not just for the sport, but for the community as a whole. The best advice I could give them is to reach out to Basketball Wales and, indeed, Sport Wales, and the officials within those organisations can explore potential avenues for support with them, and the best route. I'd be happy to provide the details to the Member, if they needed them.

And just to say, as we heard yesterday, basketball is a growing game in Wales. I did have the honour of being in the Deputy First Minister's constituency just last Thursday to have a go at basketball myself in the community, as part of one of the court collaboration funds, a fund of £1.4 million of Welsh Government funding across Wales, which has seen facilities transformed in Flint, Maesteg, and lots of others across the area, and, indeed, across the country as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question [OQ63165] has been withdrawn. Question 2 will therefore be first today. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

2. What is the Welsh Government's expectation for artificial intelligence in improving productivity in the NHS? OQ63144

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Artificial intelligence is being used in NHS Wales within diagnostics, including medical image analysis. On the administrative side, AI-powered note taking is being tested and rolled out in use in Wales. Guidance for AI adoption is being provided with active plans over the coming months to increase our national support.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you for that answer. Across the world, artificial intelligence is being used to analyse images such as x-rays, magnetic resonance imaging and computed tomography scans. These tools can be used to identify anomalies that can be missed by human radiologists. AI can be used to detect tumours and other critical conditions, improving outcomes via early intervention, and it's fast. Results can be produced faster, and that benefits patients.

Artificial intelligence can also be used in patient monitoring and management to monitor patients' vital signs and health data in real time, alerting health professionals to changes that require immediate attention, which is very important in critical care settings.

These are just two areas where AI can improve productivity and outcomes for patients, and I think that sometimes we talk too much about putting more money in rather than increasing productivity within the health service. What progress is the Welsh health service making?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I agree with the Member that we need to look at all ways to increase the efficiency of the service we can deliver, increase the capacity of the Welsh NHS to meet the needs of the people of Wales, and to always be pushing at that innovation, both to support patients and our workforce to deliver the very best service that they wish to do. There are already very, very good examples of the use of AI in some of the diagnostic applications that the Member was referring to in his question. So, in stroke, in cancer, in ophthalmology in particular, there's very good evidence in the NHS in Wales that AI can make a real difference in supporting the work of clinicians to recognise earlier the signs that can be responded to to avoid deterioration in people's condition. So, there is clear evidence that it can make a difference.

I would also say that there are some ambient voice technologies that can support more broadly based administrative and clinical activities. We've completed a desktop exercise recently around some of the potential for the safe introduction of some of these AVTs, as they're called, to understand some of the technical and care-setting factors that we would need to take into account to be able to expand the use of AI in a way that commands confidence and consent, both from a patient and a staff point of view.

I also think it's worth noting that this is an area where we're already working with the workforce partnership council, for example, to understand what we need to do across the NHS to ensure an ethical and responsible use of AI, and to make sure, as Mike Hedges was, I think, inferring in his question, that what this can do is support clinicians, support the wider healthcare workforce, in being able to do even more with the precious hours that they commit to the NHS in Wales.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I welcome the roll-out of AI in the Welsh NHS, which can be transformative in diagnostics, analysing images and data with far greater accuracy and speed. Unfortunately, however, the delivery of AI-enabled tools has so far been abysmal. Digital Health and Care Wales is responsible for major digital programmes, including AI-enabled tools, and was escalated to enhanced monitoring in March 2025 due to concerns over delivery capacity, largely due to serious concerns over its ability to deliver major programmes, including its AI-enabled tools.

The creation, roll-out and further development of the NHS Wales app has also been botched, with the app coming in four years after the NHS app in England, and it's still patchy in some practices, where bookings still aren't available through the app. Many have sadly lost confidence in the Welsh Government's ability to deliver new digital technologies within our health service. So, with regard to AI in the NHS, how will the Cabinet Secretary ensure that DHCW are properly equipped to handle the implementation of AI-enabled tools within the health service? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member should know, if he doesn't, that DHCW provides one part of the digital service for the NHS in Wales. I'm sure he'll appreciate that AI is a much broader, much richer agenda than one organisation's responsibilities. But I think it is important to note the work that the Government is doing with the NHS—all parts of the NHS—on some absolutely critical activities, so we can make sure that AI is used in the best possible ways in the NHS, but also in other parts of the Welsh public sector. That involves developing training, developing best practice standards.

We're also working with the Centre for Digital Public Services to run public-service-wide literacy and awareness sessions, exploring some of the basics of AI, so that there's an increasing understanding and an improved skill base in how to best deploy AI. There are also quite complex and nuanced questions around managing bias in AI, the kinds of things you'd need to consider when you're procuring AI, and I think he was touching on some of those points in his question. So, there is good work happening in the Welsh Government and in the Centre for Digital Public Services, and right across the NHS in Wales.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's actions to reduce delayed hospital discharges? OQ63156

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We have already made significant improvements, and last year alone—supported through the 50-day winter challenge that she may remember—we achieved a 17 per cent reduction in discharge delays against a 15 per cent target. This year, we are building on that momentum with a further £30 million specifically to local authorities to support services that can help people leave hospital safely when they're ready.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary, and I'm really pleased to support that £30 million extra funding that is going to local authorities. And, of course, it's going to help with hospital discharge and also then, the other side, deliver community-based social care services, and it is positive for patients. We know that getting people home as soon as they're clinically fit to do so benefits their physical and also their mental well-being. The other side of that, of course, is preventing admissions by caring for people closer to home is equally beneficial to reducing any hospital waiting times, and using up space that really is needed elsewhere. So, do you anticipate that this funding will have a knock-on effect of helping reduce those waiting times as more hospital beds are going to be available, and more patients will be discharged in a timely manner?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm grateful to the Member for putting the question in the way that she did. Very often, the discussion is around the impact on the capacity of the health service—and that is absolutely essential, of course—but there's a human dimension to this as well, isn't there? As she was making clear in her question, people who are safe and ready to go home, but who are in a hospital bed, very often experience what we call deconditioning, which is not good for them. And so, actually the principal objective is to make sure that people are discharged for their own health and well-being.

The funding that's gone into the system this year is greater than the sum we put in last year, so we've seen an increase in that budget. We have already seen, in fact, this year—. The most recent data that I've seen was the data for August, which shows us that this year compared to last year, we had 257 fewer delayed discharges in August, and over 20,000 fewer total days delayed than the same time last year. So, we are already seeing not just seasonal improvement, but year-on-year improvement, but there is still a task ahead of us. There are still too many people waiting to go home not yet ready to do that.

I just want to emphasise the point the Member made in relation to the importance of prevention, as well as responding to people who are discharged. Some of the work under way in readiness for winter this year is focusing on how we can support people without the need for admission, with breathlessness, in relation to falls and frailty, the sorts of things that we know people very often get admitted for and absolutely don't need to be. So, I absolutely endorse the point the Member's making about the importance of support for discharge, but also support for prevention in the first place.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

If we're going to get on top of hospital discharges and, ultimately, some of the other problems in the NHS, whether it be ambulance response times, waiting lists and so on, community hospitals, I think, will be absolutely fundamental in helping the NHS achieve that. But that seems to fly in the face of the decision recently taken by Swansea Bay University Health Board to downgrade Gorseinion Hospital and move its discharge beds out of that community hospital. Gorseinon Hospital is a much-loved hospital, based in the heart of the community of Gorseinon, and people don't want to see this planned downgrade and removal of beds. That's why hundreds of local people have signed my petition to call on Swansea Bay University Health Board to reverse these changes. What discussions are you having with the health board to ensure that community hospitals, like the one in Gorseinon, are a fundamental part of the continuing work that is being done by the NHS to reduce these discharges?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I agree with him that community hospitals, as he describes them, absolutely have a role to play. I understand that the changes proposed for Gorseinon Hospital are temporary changes, for very specific reasons. But I think the point that Joyce Watson was making in her question is how can we prevent people having to be admitted to hospital at all, how can we make sure that people have services available even closer to them—at home very often. That's the challenge and that's the innovation, I think, that we see in the system. That's why I'm confident that the additional funding we've put in this year will support both local authorities and health boards in that innovation journey, to make sure those services are there to support people when and where they need them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives spokesperson first of all, James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Male infertility and lower sperm counts are becoming more and more common due to a number of environmental and lifestyle factors. It's something that we don't talk enough about in this Chamber, so I want to highlight it today. Given that some fertility treatments crucial for men's infertility, such as intracytoplasmic sperm injection—or ICSI, as it's known—as far as I'm aware, are only available in Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, or at Neath, this creates a postcode lottery to accessing those services for people right the way across Wales. What steps will the Welsh Government take to ensure that men have equal access to fertility treatments right the way across the country? Because referral pathways into this treatment can be lengthy and difficult to access, and delays starting this treatment can put people off altogether.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think the Member makes an important point. I think he put it in the terms that we don't talk about this enough. I think that is absolutely true. I don't think that male infertility sometimes gets the attention in public discourse that it certainly merits. He will be aware that there are a range of different ways in which fertility treatments are provided in and for the NHS in Wales. Some are provided by health boards directly and others are commissioned as specialist services by the joint commissioning committee. Without going into the detail of it, in general terms, there are steps that are taken at a health board level before patients qualify for specialist support. The specialist support is available on a consistent basis, because there are criteria for how people are eligible for it, but there is a level of variability in the services that health boards provide, and that's for a range of different reasons. We are doing a piece of work to identify what that looks like across health boards, from a pre-IVF fertility stage to the kinds of services delivered locally. I think it is fair to say there is a geographic dimension to it. Some services are delivered in particular parts of Wales. That is, I'm afraid, often the way with some specialist services, just because the level of demand on those services may not always merit that geographic distribution—though I do understand that can cause challenges.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

It has emerged, Cabinet Secretary, that some health boards have removed the priority referral pathway for men with fertility problems, potentially forcing male patients to wait even longer for specialist help. If you're in the north of the country, for example, that can be extremely distressing, along with those people who are waiting. Given that national policy allows clinically justified cases of male infertility to be expedited, will the Minister now review this practice across all health boards, to make sure that it is happening, to ensure that men with fertility issues can access timely specialist care where appropriate? Will you write to all the health boards to ensure that this expedited route is put back in place as soon as possible? Because with these issues in men, if it's not picked up sooner, the sperm count of the man goes down and down as the length of time goes on.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I appreciate why the Member is asking the question; it is a reasonable question to ask. I'm not sure I'd put it in quite that way. He is right to say that, generally, patients should be seen in the order that they were placed on a waiting list for treatment. However, as he says, patients can be expedited for treatment or intervention where there is a clinical justification for doing that. So, it's important that that's a clinical justification for doing it. And then clinics need to have a robust documented process for expediting the treatment in the case of that individual. For non-specialist services, there are NICE guidelines, which health boards are required to comply with. There is a piece of work I mentioned earlier, which is already under way, identifying where those guidelines may be applied differently in different parts of Wales.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

And finally on this point, Cabinet Secretary, I think one thing that is often overlooked in this area is the mental health implications. I know you're not the Minister responsible for mental health, but it does create severe mental trauma for some of the males who go through this treatment. A lot of the mental health support programmes tend to be more catered to supporting the female who is going through the treatment, and not the male, and it is seen that the man has got to support the woman, but there's nothing there to help the man. I know there are certain organisations out there that do help, but I think it would be a good positive step if the Government could put some policies in place on how health boards can support men through their fertility journey, because I find, more often than not, that they are left on their own to suffer and tend to get forgotten about.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member is right to say that infertility, but also waiting for treatment more broadly, can have a significant impact on people's mental health and on their well-being, and it is right that all services are provided to patients to reflect the needs of that particular patient. It is already the case that all fertility clinics used by the NHS in Wales are required to offer access to a counsellor before treatment starts, so that's already a requirement in the system. Anyone who needs further counselling or follow-up support should also then request that via their GP. But I will look to see what is the outcome of the work that is already under way to understand the picture in terms of the potential variability of the offer in different parts of Wales, and reflect in light of that what further support and steps might be needed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson now, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you, Llywydd. The situation in our emergency departments is critical. Not my words, but the words of the chair of Betsi Cadwaladr, which have also been echoed by Helen Whyley of the Royal College of Nursing, who have called the situation dire.

One of the main factors contributing to this problem is the failure to release patients—the delayed discharge, as we heard referred to in an earlier question. Last November, the Cabinet Secretary launched the 50-day challenge, and that was supported by the regional integration fund, worth £146 million, as well as £19 million in additional funding, and we've heard of an additional £30 million again this year. But almost a year since that challenge was launched, are the people of north Wales in a better place?

In November of last year, the numbers waiting for transfers of care, or delayed discharge, in Betsi Cadwaladr were 286. Today, that figure is 318. So, based on these figures, can we come to the conclusion that the Government's actions to tackle delayed transfers of care have failed the people of north Wales. Why is north Wales unique in these failures as compared to the rest of Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I don't think that that is a complete explanation of the situation. As I said, across the system in Wales, we have far fewer people waiting for those discharges and less time being spent in that process. We have seen collaboration and co-operation across the north Wales region. We have a situation that is unique in terms of Betsi Cadwaladr in that there are six local authorities working with the health board. That is unusual in terms of regions in Wales. And what that means is that there is more variance in terms of individual council processes than is the case in other parts of Wales, for reasons that are partly geographical.

It is clear to me that the situation in terms of the accident and emergency departments in north Wales is unacceptable. I also heard the comments made by the chair of the board. There is a need for significant improvement. We have seen, despite that, fewer hours being lost in terms of handover from ambulances. So, there is a need for improvement. What's important is that every part of Wales, including north Wales, improves and seeks good practice and spreads that in a more purposeful manner and more swiftly. In doing that, I think we are going to see the progress that we want to see in all parts of Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Part of the problem when it comes to this Government’s inability to demonstrate the experience and stability that we desperately need to see after years of chaotic personnel churn, strategic mismanagement and failing standards is its alarmingly loose grasp of crucial details. For example, last week, the First Minister accused us of supplying incorrect figures on the change in two-year waits between March and June of this year. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the net difference in two-year waits during this period was, indeed, 942 as we initially quoted, and that the net difference compared to March now stands at an even less impressive 384? If so, why does the Cabinet Secretary think that his leader is so badly misinformed on progress in delivering one of her purported key priorities?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member is seeking to get me to confirm a premise of the question that I'm not prepared to accept, I’m afraid. I’m not often blamed for an alarming weakness in grasp of detail, but I’m not a human calculator, so I’m not going to be able to make that judgment in real time, I’m afraid. But I’m very happy to make sure that he has the correct numbers.

The larger question that patients in Wales will want to know is that the Government has a plan that is funded and working in order to make sure, as we all want to see, that those two-year waits are coming down, and to meet the commitment that I have made that we won’t have anybody in that position at the end of this Senedd term, as well as, of course, the commitment in relation to the size of the waiting list, which is also important, and the timely access to diagnostics.

We’ve been very clear in our expectations of health boards in delivering this. We’ve provided the funding. I have a weekly meeting that looks, in very great granularity, at the performance of each health board in relation to each particular specialty. So, we are able to see, in the published statistics and also in the management information, which we are now also making available, real levels of increased activity right across the NHS in Wales, which is, quarter by quarter, driving down the numbers of people waiting and the waits that they are facing.

I want to see faster progress, obviously, but I think there is good progress in the system, and I’m confident that we have the plans in place that will enable us to get to where we need to be by the end of the Senedd term.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response. And finally, to continue on this theme of experience and stability, the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the role of chief allied health professions adviser has been vacant for almost four months. As far as I can see, there is no sign of any new appointment being made in order to take on this crucial role.

In the absence of the chief adviser, there is a lack of leadership in the area. For example, recently, an oversight panel was established for maternity and newborn services, but nobody from the allied professions is on this panel. I’m sure that you would agree that this is a serious problem given the importance of these professions in this area. It’s difficult to believe that this ever would have occurred if the chief adviser was in place. When can we expect this role to be filled?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

These things happen on occasion. Recruitment cycles aren't in the hands of Ministers; that's a matter for the civil service, as the Member will be aware. I'll ensure that an update is provided in terms of our hopes to fill that vacancy as soon as possible.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

4. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve health services in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ63150

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Health boards in Wales are responsible for ensuring the provision of safe and timely access to good-quality clinical services for their local population. We continue to support health boards to make improvements with additional finance, direct intervention and support from NHS Wales Performance and Improvement.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, yesterday a local palliative care centre in my constituency made the difficult decision to close its doors. In a public statement, Shalom House hospice in St David's said that ongoing financial difficulties and a lack of sustainable funding meant it had no alternative but to close at the end of October this year.

Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you'll agree with me that this is deeply disappointing and worrying news. Shalom House has delivered fantastic specialist palliative support to patients and their relatives over the years. Despite their fundraising efforts and the generous support of the community, they have been unable to find a way forward.

There are many small charities like Shalom House that desperately need support. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to help these organisations, given the important work they do in supporting people with life-limiting illnesses? What is the Welsh Government's strategy regarding supporting palliative care centres and hospices, because we can't see essential and vital services like these close in our communities, going forward?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm sorry to hear that news. I would absolutely agree with the Member that the services in centres like the one he's referring to in his constituency—and there will be others right across Wales—provide an absolutely essential service to people in very difficult circumstances. We know just how important good palliative care is to people.

He asked me what the Government is doing to support palliative care more broadly in the sector specifically. We've increased our investment to over £16 million annually, and improving the quality of palliative care remains a key programme for government commitment. Over the course of this Senedd term, that investment has increased quite significantly, and there have been additional injections of funding at particular points where there have been particular challenges in relation to rising costs and other pressures.

The strategy, as he mentioned in his question, has included a range of interventions by the Government and by the NHS more broadly. We have a quality statement for palliative and end-of-life care. We've been developing a national service specification for a range of elements of palliative care. There's been work under way through HEIW to develop a framework to improve skills levels across the sector. The JCC has put in place arrangements to standardise commissioning arrangements. There's also been good work to strengthen advanced care planning. And the implementation of the national bereavement framework as well has had a bearing on some of the work that the sector provides. So, there is a wide range of activity under way, a commitment to increase that funding, but I do recognise the point that he makes, that it is a sector that often feels financial pressures. Clearly, the example he's given today is very regrettable. What we are doing is seeking to put the sector on a more sustainable footing through procurement, through commissioning and through funding.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

5. How is the Government ensuring that the Grange hospital is providing an acceptable standard of care for patients in South Wales East? OQ63174

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Quality and safety of services is one of the Government’s top priorities. We are supporting the Grange through the creation of a new discharge lounge, extension of the emergency department, and, absolutely crucially, the employment of six new emergency medicine consultants to improve senior decision making.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch yn fawr, and that's good to hear. I want to highlight, though, the normalisation of corridor care that has become a feature of some Welsh hospitals. I received the following account from a pensioner who has cancer and has had to go back and forth to the Grange hospital in Cwmbran for medical complications as a result of that cancer. The following are his words, and I warn the Chamber of the frankness of the quote:

'Back in the Grange, feeling crap after one night on a chair. The staff are fantastic, but the system definitely isn't. The only reason I had a bed at last was because I staggered to the loo and collapsed on the floor. Had to get three nurses to pick me up and plonk me in a chair. Think they realised that I should get a bed. Some people are spending two nights in a chair. It's bloody inhumane. Thank you, Welsh Government.'

That's the end of the quote. I know from speaking to members of staff earlier this year that the hospital was allowing triple boarding, which meant that three patients are sometimes close together in one corridor, often with serious conditions. This anecdotal case has been backed up by RCN Cymru and BMA Cymru, who have teamed up to launch a petition to try and get the Government to sort the matter out for the sake of patients, and staff who never signed up to provide care in such circumstances. Cabinet Secretary, what progress is the Government making in eliminating corridor care, and are you as concerned as I am to hear about the elderly constituent's recent experience at the Grange?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, I am as concerned as you are, and it's upsetting to hear that. I'm very sorry for the experience your constituent has had, which clearly is not acceptable. I don't think any of us would regard that as acceptable, obviously, and I'm sure everybody working in the hospital would say the same, and everybody in the health board would agree with that. The question is: what are we doing about it? I've met with the RCN a number of times to discuss the issue of corridor care, and there is a recognition, I think, that it is a complex question. However, I wouldn't accept the idea of normalisation. I certainly don't think it is normal and it shouldn't be normal, but there is far too much of it happening in hospitals right across the UK.

What we've seen in the health board is, in fact, a reduction in the number of patients awaiting discharge from the hospital. Now, why that's relevant in the context of corridor care is because it is often a symptom of the inability of a hospital to manage the flow of patients through the hospital in an acceptable way. So, what we are seeing at the Grange are signs of improvement. We are seeing patients being handed over more quickly. We all know that's been a challenge in the past, but the data is showing us there are fewer hours being lost. We are also seeing patients being discharged more quickly than they have in the past. I'm not suggesting that is the complete answer, obviously it's not, and your constituent's experience suggests that, but there is good progress happening. As I mentioned in my answer to Mabon ap Gwynfor earlier, what I want to see is faster progress happening.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, thank you so much for answering the question from my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths, because it's something that I can relate to as well. The Grange hospital is struggling to cope with demands. That can't come as a surprise to you, and I'm sure it's not at all a reflection of the hospital's dedicated staff in any way, shape or form. The hospital has been plagued with problems since opening only a few years ago, and this was highlighted earlier this year by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, which found ongoing systematic challenges affecting the consistent delivery of safe care.

Throughout the summer, I was out in Newport talking to constituents about the challenges facing our health service, and several of them mentioned the need for the A&E department to be reopened at the Royal Gwent Hospital. Following these conversations, I decided to launch a survey to gauge further views from residents, and the overwhelming majority of respondents believed that the Royal Gwent should have an A&E department again. Those who responded felt that the needs of Newport residents, as well as those in surrounding areas, were not being met at the moment, and that having an A&E back in the city centre would help alleviate pressures on the Grange. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you give the people of Newport what they want and put their needs first by relooking at and reopening the A&E department in the Royal Gwent Hospital? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think what the health board has done is to be able to achieve something which evidence internationally demonstrates is the best way of ensuring that emergency care is provided appropriately and also that elective planned care is provided appropriately. As she knows, the Grange is mainly an acute site, and what that has meant is the health board has been able to use its enhanced local general hospitals to conduct elective surgery and out-patients without being impacted by, as we call them, unscheduled care pressures. What that means is that you're able to maintain the availability of NHS services for those people who, as we would all recognise, have been waiting too long for treatments, whilst also seeking to improve on the emergency care delivered.

I have already answered a question that set out the steps that we are taking with the health board to improve emergency care provision at the Grange. And the evidence that we are starting to see is that it is having a positive outcome. I don't pretend there's not a long way to go; there is. But we are already seeing signs of improvement, and I am clear that that is because the health hoard is implementing a model that people across the world are trying to implement, which is to separate emergency from elective care. We know from evidence everywhere that's the best way of improving services overall.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Following on from the Member's question, it would be good to have a review of that massive reorganisation, that centralisation, to see if it actually has worked. But does the Cabinet Secretary regret rushing people into the Grange hospital whilst it wasn't fit for purpose, with the classic example of this being an A&E where patients, constituents of mine, have suffered unnecessarily ever since, with appalling waiting lists—we all have stories of those—whilst suffering in a small room where people are often standing or sitting? Now, Cabinet Secretary, the new A&E is being built, as you've just outlined, and it will be very welcome, especially the new consultants and the new staff that that will bring with it, but it is long overdue now. And I'm just wondering if you could update us on when we will see that new A&E department open, because that will have a direct impact on the standards of care that my constituents are receiving. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

What I do regret is that if the Member's party was in Government, we wouldn't have a discussion about free access to healthcare of any sort. We'd all be paying privately for insurance premiums, because her party's been absolutely clear: they wouldn't have an NHS funded from general taxation.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

6. How is the Welsh Government supporting access to stroke services in mid Wales? OQ63163

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

A huge amount of work is being undertaken to improve equitable access across Wales to stroke services, and equitable access to outcomes for people following a stroke. This is being guided by the expectations set out in our stroke quality statement.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Health Secretary, you'll be aware of proposals from Hywel Dda health board to transfer stroke recovery services from Bronglais Hospital, which serves large parts of mid Wales, to hospitals in Llanelli or to Withybush. That would mean a four- to six-hour round trip by car for a family member to visit a loved one recovering from a stroke, or up to a nine-hour round trip if that relative did not have access to a car, and that's using towns such as Llanidloes or Machynlleth as a marker to travel to Llanelli or Withybush. Now, given the proven role of family support in the recovery of those suffering from a stroke, and poor transport links as well, do you find it acceptable that you could reach London from here in Cardiff quicker and with more ease than these family members would be able to visit a loved one? Are you satisfied with the proposals from Hywel Dda health board in this regard?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, they're not proposals, they're issues that are out for consultation. [Interruption.] The Member will be aware that no decision has been taken, so there is no proposal at present. I can't quite hear, Llywydd, because of contributions from the front bench.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Not from the front bench, from the opposition bench.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Front bench of the opposition, I meant. Sorry, forgive me—the opposition front bench.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You have been cheered, on occasion, from that side this afternoon, which must be an unusual thing for you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Member is aware that there isn't a proposal in the way that he outlines, and he will also know that they have been matters out for consultation. So, I do think it's important that we describe what's being considered in the right way, because, as his question is clear, people will become anxious otherwise.

I think what's also challenging—. And I accept the point that he makes about the inconvenience of travel, so I think that is understood. But I know that when he, I'm sure, has spoken to the Stroke Association, and others, there is a clear consensus from the Stroke Association, from clinicians like the Royal College of Physicians, for example, that if one sets as one's priority for stroke, as I'm sure we all want to do, to make sure that people recover as quickly as possible from their experience of stroke, and that we minimise the incidence of stroke, the evidence tells us that delivering that on a regional basis is the best way of ensuring outcomes for patients. That is absolutely what I'm sure is our top priority. So, there is a challenge in balancing the point that the Member makes, which is the distances that people may have to travel, with the fact that the reorganisation, which has clinical support, has Stroke Association support—I mean, the general principle of reorganisation—is the best way of ensuring better patient outcomes, and that, at the end of the day, is what we all want to see.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Aneurin Bevan University Health Board about patient safety and working conditions at GP surgeries managed by eHarley Street? OQ63161

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As the Member is aware, health boards are responsible for delivering general medical services. The Welsh Government holds regular meetings with each health board, including Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, to discuss the breadth of primary care delivery. I'm aware of the concerns that have been expressed in relation to the surgeries the Member refers to, and work is under way to understand what actions may be needed to alleviate such concerns in future.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that. Well, earlier this year, as you know, there was a lot of press coverage of this story. Three GP surgeries in my region are still managed by the private company eHarley Street—those are Gelligaer, Pontypool and Lliswerry. The company made headlines months ago because doctors hadn't been paid and patients were finding it almost impossible to get appointments. I know one GP is still owed more than £4,000 and a court-imposed payment plan has been defaulted on. Now another GP has said they're owed £40,000 from fees relating to a building and equipment. The health board took back the contracts for other surgeries that the company had been managing many months ago. I'd ask why these three surgeries have been left with them. If there were questions about competence or management, why is the health board content with its management of these remaining surgeries, or had the private company asked the health board to take back the other contracts, and if so, why? Patients and doctors deserve answers on this. Now, I'd appreciate knowing more about any recent discussions you've had with the health board about this matter. And could we have a meeting, please, to discuss my constituents' concerns?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, of course. I mean, some of the points that she made are detailed questions for the health board themselves, as she will anticipate. But from the discussions that my officials have with the health board, the following things are clear: eHarley practices are now under enhanced monitoring arrangements with the health board. There's a meeting every two weeks with the divisional director for primary care, community services and complex and long-term care, the deputy medical director and the finance business partner accountant. And those are assurance meetings that regularly discuss the sorts of points the Member has been asking about, so staffing matters, payment matters, debt management, His Majesty's Revenue and Customs payment questions—the range of issues that she's alluding to in her question. The health board have confirmed to us that they've seen evidence of payment plans in place, though I note the Member refers to a default on one of those. So, if she would like to draw the detail of that to my attention, I would be interested. In addition, there are weekly operational escalation meetings with the head of primary care, where those sorts of issues are also considered. The practices themselves are undertaking staff surveys of well-being and have offered to share those with the health boards; I'm sure that will be providing important information.

Two further things, if I may? The contracting mechanisms provide for contract-assurance visit arrangements, which now are taking place regularly and run alongside the other panoply of assurance arrangements that I've just referred to. And following the experience that the health board and patients, most importantly, have had with some of the eHarley practices and the outcome of the health board's own lessons-learnt exercise, I've been undertaking an internal review about what might be required in future to ensure that similar concerns aren't raised; that's involved some element of external advice. And I'm hopeful to be able to provide an update to health boards in relation to that in the coming weeks.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

8. What are the Government's plans for reducing waiting lists for neurodevelopmental assessments? OQ63164

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government and NHS Wales Performance and Improvement are working with health boards to reduce neurodivergence assessment delays, eliminating all three-year waits for children across Wales. Betsi Cadwaladr have been allocated £2.7 million additional funds in 2025/26 and have a clear delivery plan to eliminate three-year waits by March of next year.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

There are 7,273 children and young people waiting for assessments in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area. Let us reflect on that figure for a moment—over 7,000 on a waiting list. And this, of course, is a cause of great concern for families across the region, not to mention the detrimental impact on the children themselves.

As you say, the board has received £2.7 million from the Government to help with this issue and there is more funding on the way, I believe, leading to a total spend of £5.6 million. Yet, there is no sign to date, at least, that the situation is improving in north Wales. Will you therefore demand that Betsi Cadwaladr health board prioritises the publication of that action plan—the one that you call a 'clear action plan'? Well, let us see that action plan, which will outline how this additional funding, which is a significant amount of funding, will be used for the express purpose of providing fair play to the children of north Wales.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm happy to provide some of those details to the Member now. In this financial year, some £2.7 million, as I said, has been allocated to the health board, and some 107,000 further assessments will be completed within that budget between now and next March. Some 904 children in north Wales are waiting over three years at the moment. We do believe that the health board's plans will enable those to be seen, so that forecast is something that we are familiar with. We can see that the money can be spent in a way that will eliminate those waits by next year, and the current trajectory in terms of the assessments going through the system is on target to deliver that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 9, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the performance of emergency departments in North Wales? OQ63160

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Performance at emergency departments in north Wales is not where I, the public nor staff expect it to be. We are working closely with the health board with assistance from the national improvement programmes and clinical networks and have set clear expectations for improvement.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer. According to the chair of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, emergency care in north Wales is in, and I quote, 'a crisis situation', 'letting people down' and 'people are waiting in ambulances for extreme lengths of time'. The situation is 'desperate', 'dire' and they are 'failing' their citizens. I would agree with that analysis. I receive, unfortunately, postbags that are full of complaints about the emergency care experience of patients in north Wales—people waiting up to four days on chairs in their 90s while they are waiting for a bed, people who are on ambulances outside these emergency departments for many hours, sometimes over a day, before they can get admitted into those hospitals. It is unacceptable.

Now, one of the things that we know that would alleviate these pressures is access to more beds, but, of course, previous Welsh Governments have closed local hospitals in the region over the years, and you don't seem to be able to get your finger out to be able to build new hospitals with extra bed capacity to take pressure off these emergency departments. The Royal College of Nursing has said that we need to end corridor care because it's unsafe and undignified. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said that the problem is about beds. When are you going to deliver the beds that you have promised the people of north Wales, especially at the Royal Alexandra Hospital site in Rhyl?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm not sure if the Member heard the answer I gave to Mabon ap Gwynfor in relation to a similar question earlier, but I was clear to him as well, and I repeat it to you, that it is unacceptable. I heard the comments of the chair of the health board as well, which recognised the need for a much better service and experience for patients in north Wales who are attending emergency departments. I also read a discussion at the board that recognises the challenges that we are setting to the board as a Government, the expectations that we have, the visibility that there will be of performance against those expectations. This is about our duty to patients at the end of the day, and the health board's duty to patients. I think there was an important recognition in the discussion that it wasn't simply about funding, that it was also about improving the way services are delivered.

The Member is repeating from a sedentary position the word 'beds'. I was about to come on to answer that part of his question, if he bears with me for one second longer. The discussion that we were having earlier—I'm not sure if the Member was in his place at the time—was in relation to the importance of flow in the hospital in order to improve access to emergency provision, but also to avoid corridor care. I want to see more progress happening in north Wales in relation to that rapid discharge of people who are ready to go home. We all want to see that. We are seeing it in other parts of Wales. What we want to make sure is that all health boards are learning from the best of each other, so that we can tackle emergency department performance, we can tackle corridor care, we can tackle that improved flow. We are already seeing fewer lost hours in ambulance handover, more rapid handover, people waiting less time in emergency departments, people being discharged safely more quickly. We want to see that happening in all parts of Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical questions are next. There is just one question today. That question is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and is to be asked by Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

1. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to contain bluetongue disease, and to support farmers and livestock markets, in light of the two confirmed cases in Wales? TQ1374

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Sam. In line with our bluetongue control strategy, four premises in Wales where bluetongue has been confirmed have been placed under restrictions. Further investigations into the source and the spread of the disease are ongoing. Appropriate disease control zones will be declared if required. Compensation will be paid for animals culled for disease control purposes.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and I'm grateful to the Llywydd for selecting this topical question today. And since I've submitted, as you alluded to, Cabinet Secretary, two further cases of bluetongue have sadly been confirmed here in Wales. This is a serious concern for our farming industry, and I'm sure Members will join me in extending our best wishes to those farmers and their families currently subject to restrictions. I will join you, Cabinet Secretary, in urging all farmers to speak to their vets and vaccinate. But as there is a cost to this, I ask: is the Welsh Government making any support available to assist farmers in vaccinating?

I would also ask how the confirmation of these cases changes the Welsh Government's approach to restrictions, and how you expect those measures to evolve in the weeks ahead, because the impacts of the current restrictions have already been felt financially. The effect on livestock markets has been stark, with many reporting huge drops in turnover almost overnight, with cattle movements across the border dropping from thousands to only a few hundred. These marts are far more than trading venues, they are central to the rural economy, and when their viability is undermined, the ripple effect extends across farm businesses and the wider communities that rely upon them.

Could you also confirm whether any targeted support will be made available both to livestock markets whose viability is under threat? You mentioned compensation—could you outline how that compensation is determined for those who are required to slaughter animals? Is that off the same basis as bovine TB compensation or is there a new metric that you're using to determine compensation for those required to cull infected bluetongue animals?

And finally, can you update Members on discussions with the UK Government and vaccine manufacturers regarding the supply of vaccines? Farmers need confidence that long-term solutions are being actively pursued, that there is a constant supply of vaccine, so that we can move from containing the disease towards building genuine resilience in the future. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Sam, and thank you for bringing this question, and also, Llywydd, for granting it as well. We discussed this in quite some detail today on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee as well, but it's good to have it here on the floor of the Senedd.

In response to your queries, on vaccination we're pursuing the same approach that is being pursued across the border in England, indeed, where it's a decision for the farmers as to whether to vaccinate, but I would join you in exactly what you've said, which is: if you are one of the farmers within proximity of one of these incidents currently, you should be having a discussion with your vet immediately about vaccination. And in fact, across Wales, we are encouraging farmers to have those conversations, because we know that this can be transmitted by midges, and we're hoping to keep it out of the midge population, but also it can be transmitted, as we are seeing in those areas within England now, where it's gone beyond the two counties and gone into the west of England and the south-west as well—. Vaccination is the thing we need to get ahead of this, very much.

I would just highlight the costs of not vaccinating, because those could really be significant if we don't get ahead of this, and I want to spell that out very, very clearly. We know that, in other areas, not just within the UK but on the continent, where vaccination has been after the event, trying to catch up with it, the severity of this disease, has been significant: reproductive losses, milk drop and the financial and psychological costs that you allude to as well, on the welfare of the farmers as well, as well as the welfare of the animals. They have been significant, and the economic costs have been borne by those farmers. So, I really would join with you in saying, please, please speak to your vets. Discuss, right now, vaccination.

In terms of the supply, we know that the decision they took in England to snap out the border to the whole of England has meant that the disease has spread rapidly across parts of England where it wasn't before. Some of this has been due to cattle movements; others have been to do with midge-borne disease. One of the things we've been able to do, right up to now, as we go from September into October in Wales, is to keep this disease locked out right up until these incidents, and our approach now, Sam, is to control and contain these and turn this back, because we will get to the point where we move into the low vector part of this season, and the weather and the climate might well assist us in driving this disease back out. But we don't know. We're doing our best to do it. But in buying that time for farmers, what we've also done is built the time for the supply chain of vaccinations to build up, so we can give confidence now to farmers that that vaccine is available, that they should speak to their vets, and then, if the veterinary advice is to vaccinate, then they can go ahead, because the supply chain is there to do it. We do, with my chief veterinary officer and the other CVOs across the UK, and with the Animal and Plant Health Agency, keep regularly in touch with the supply chain as well to make sure that there is confidence within the supply chain.

You mentioned compensation. Yes, we deal with compensation for culled animals. The criteria is set out very clearly. It's on our website. It's available to vets as well. So, it's very, very clear to the farmers the basis on which we supply compensation.

Can I also pick up on the aspect of the wider supply chain? We know that the measures we've introduced on bluetongue and the disease control measures have indeed been disruptive for the livestock sector, although I would say, as we made clear on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee today, we've talked regularly and consistently with stakeholders, including auctioneers as well, and we've adjusted through the course of the summer. But, every time we've made an adjustment, it has heightened the risk, cumulatively, of spreading the disease here into Wales. It's not possible to protect livestock and livelihoods and the mental well-being of farmers by keeping this disease out without having some restrictions on animal movements, but we'll keep this, as we've always said, under review as well. But we recognise it has been disruptive. It could be a darn sight more disruptive economically, and in terms of health and welfare of the farmers as well, if we'd have let this rip across Wales, in the way that we are now seeing, regrettably, across parts of England.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the chief veterinary officer for the briefing that we received yesterday, which was very beneficial? But, of course, this is the news we were all dreading, and while the focus on keeping the disease out of Wales remains, we now, of course, have to focus on limiting and managing the disease within the Welsh borders. And I just want to know if that will now change the Government's approach or focus in any way in the battle against bluetongue. For example, are you considering keeping the same national arrangements in place, or are you considering perhaps developing more localised arrangements where cases have arisen? I'd be grateful if you could just enlighten us as to where we are going from here, with more and more cases emerging.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

It would also be good to hear more about the local surveillance and containment plans that you're now hoping to put in place, and I'm thinking of within the immediate vicinity of these sites where cases have been confirmed. Is there any additional support being provided for farms in that immediate vicinity? Are you targeting a vaccination drive, for example, in those areas? I noted in your previous answer that you said that you'd be encouraging those farmers to have conversations with their vets. Well, is that sufficient? Surely the Welsh Government should be a bit more proactive in making things happen along those lines, even if that doesn't extend to subsidising vaccination costs for those farms. I'd like to understand how you're stepping up your game in those particular areas.

I appreciate as well, of course, that veterinary and epidemiological investigations can take time when we find these cases—sampling and testing and movement investigations, et cetera, are all required. So, whilst I'm sure that can be done swiftly and thoroughly when we see isolated cases, as we have done this week, are you confident that the capacity is there, both within Welsh Government and the APHA, to deal with, potentially, a much heavier workload if we do see a steep increase in cases?

And finally from me, Llywydd, the BTV-8 strain of bluetongue, of course, has now been confirmed in Cornwall. That's the first time it's been confirmed in the UK. So, what can you tell us about how the Welsh Government is preparing for that particular strain of bluetongue, should it arrive, of course, in Wales over the coming months? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Llyr, indeed, and, yes, this is the news that we were dreading, but we were also, in some ways, anticipating. And our control measures and containment measures were ready for this and are in place, and you do mention—.

Just to say, on the BTV-8, we're aware of that. My CVO is in discussion with CVOs across the UK about how we respond to that and tackle that, should that actually make progress across parts of England and towards us as well. So, we're very aware of that.

You ask about local control measures. Yes, in my immediate response to Sam's question, I said that appropriate disease-control zones will be declared, if required. We wait to see if that is necessary. And if we do need to take those measures, we will. So, that is in our mind, but a decision has not been arrived at yet. The investigation is taking place locally within the area to see whether that is required or not.

Just to say as well—you mentioned about how we go forward from this—I am not making any assumptions either way here in terms of what the disease will do, and particularly as we go into the autumn and winter. I think we've had—. And it's thanks to the effort on the ground, I've got to say as well, both in terms of vigilance of vets and the farming community, but also, I have to say, the Welsh Government-funded work that's been going on through APHA on the ground to keep a close eye on these incidents occurring. We are funding that work and we'll continue to do so in addition to our regular disease controls.

But, in line with the commitment I made originally when we set out the bluetongue strategy, we have indeed, Llyr, adapted and updated our policy as we've gone along to take account of industry feedback and in the light of new and emerging information since July. We've taken through those round-table meetings and the CVO-led working groups. We've collaborated with industry to develop a risk-based approach, and we have indeed on three occasions now brought in changes to the restrictions that balance trade facilitation with maintaining the disease control and mitigation measures. And as we go forward and as we move into the low disease transmission period proper, and it will be determined by the Pirbright Institute when we hit that—normally, within any year, it tends to be December, January, that middle of the midwinter season—we will reconsider our animal movement restrictions in line with this commitment to keep the policy under review, based on new and emerging evidence.

You also raised, Llyr, the issue of other measures and monitoring on the ground. Well, yes, it is Welsh Government that is funding not insignificant funding going into the APHA monitoring, the surveillance, the disease investigations now and throughout the year. This could evolve, based on the advice of the CVO, into additional monitoring, not just within these localised areas, but in wider areas as well, to make sure that we're picking this up very early indeed, and, ultimately, our focus remains on protecting livestock, but also the livelihoods of those employed in the sector. And as I say, there are some people out there, Llywydd, who are saying, 'Well, this is mild. Let this disease rip.' The experience in other parts of Europe, but also with the speed it's now moving around England, suggests that this may not be the case, and we really have to get ahead of this with vaccination. So, I once again repeat: the biggest, the biggest thing we can do here working together is for farmers to have that discussion.

Oh, sorry, and you asked about those discussions. Sorry. We're not just encouraging here from the floor of the Senedd; our CVO is working with the stakeholders, with the round-table, with roadshows, with information on the publicly available website, through the unions, through every possible—every possible—area that we can communicate this, including social media, the traditional meetings on farm markets and so on, to get the message out there about vaccination. I make it clear, Llywydd: we do need more farmers to have that discussion with their vet so we can get ahead of the disease.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Some Ministers choose to answer only one of a long list of questions asked of them. You choose to answer every single one of the long list of questions asked.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I try.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, can we have shorter questions, and shorter answers, so I can select the three remaining speakers on this item? Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I was thinking just the same, Llywydd. [Laughter.] So, I agree with you. One of the questions that hasn't been asked and therefore answered was on the control measures that currently exist. We have good control measures already to try and reduce TB. They're well-known, well-documented and well-followed and understood by those who have, unfortunately, to use them. So, my question is: will you be revisiting those structures that are already in place, the good practice that's already in place, so that we're not reinventing the wheel, because time is pretty critical here?

The other question that I wanted to ask is: it is a distressing disease for animals, but also for the farmers, or those involved in looking after the animals. So, will you be urging individuals to seek support from experts in the field if they are feeling overwhelmed and also distressed?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

'Yes', and 'yes'.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Excellent. [Laughter.]

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Can I just expand?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Yes, of course.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

First of all, you are right, we've put in control measures, some of which have been criticised by some in the sector, but I have to say have the complete, universal consensus of the veterinary and animal welfare organisations behind them entirely. So, we will keep those under review, as I've said, and we will move with the evidence and with stakeholder feedback.

And your important point, on the second point: this is a strain on the farming community, and there is an impact economically on auctioneers and the wider supply chain as well. But it is as nothing to the strain of letting this disease rip across the whole of Wales and having some of the worst severity. So, I would strongly suggest, yes, those excellent mental health and well-being support charities out there, some of which work with Welsh Government support as well—I would highly commend that anybody who is feeling the stress and strain of this on top of everything else contact them, speak to people. There are good organisations out there that will help you and will speak to you.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you for your update, Deputy First Minister. You talked about localised zoning, and I know a lot of these cases are actually coming in my constituency. So, if, we'll say, hypothetically, you were to put my constituency into a zoning area, what would the movement restrictions be on those farmers? Would they be able then to sell into England and bring those stock home, similar to how all zoning works in England? Just so I can get an understanding, because, if it is going to happen, farmers in my constituency then would be very limited in where they could sell their livestock.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed. If you'll excuse me, but this is for good reason, let me not deal in hypotheticals. We need to deal in what we're doing right here, right now. If we choose to move to a localised control zone, then I will indeed bring forward a statement to the Senedd, and I will contact you as well to explain that to you, in the same way that we've done with briefings on our current situation. To deal in hypotheticals I'm afraid might set all sort of hares running on this. So, let's deal with what we've got, what we're doing right now. But we are thinking through the implications of what would happen if we did need to introduce control zones. And if we do in your area, or anybody else's, rest assured, we'll be in touch with you so you can communicate to your farmers.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Reform UK, South Wales East)

Diolch. I too am glad that we've had this topical question on this today, due to its importance. It was devastating to learn of bluetongue presenting itself in my home county in Chepstow, and of course the one in Powys and the other two you've mentioned today. I urge you, Cabinet Secretary, to take the action needed to protect our farming industry, and, this time, as you've already hinted at, to remember that we have soft borders, not hard ones, and some farm businesses, especially in my area, of course, work cross-border, like the Monmouthshire livestock market, and we need to protect those businesses. It is right that we urge farmers to be vigilant and report the suspected cases immediately, and it's essential this Government step up and support our farmers and rural businesses with urgent financial support, because they're already getting battered at both ends of the M4.

Vaccination is key, as you've said, but it's obviously costly, as has been outlined today, when farmers can least afford it. So, will you commit to financially supporting vaccination costs for farmers, especially in those key areas that you outlined, because, if not, isn't that going to hinder the stopping of the spread? And if you are going to do it, when will that package of support be available to our farmers and industry?

Following on from what you said, I'm glad that you said you will update us going forward, because it's important that we all have a role to play in reassuring our farmers and protecting our industry during this critical time, especially when our farmers, as Joyce Watson said, are feeling overwhelmed. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much. Just to say, in terms of compensation for culled animals, in terms of the investment in APHA for surveillance and vigilance, and that the costs for vaccination fall upon farmers, it's exactly the same route that is being followed in England as well. I would just re-emphasise once again the costs of not getting ahead of this disease for a farmer, when the cost of vaccination and the supply chain is there, are far more significant than not vaccinating. So, we call upon farmers to have that discussion with their vets and consider vaccination if it's right for them.

The other two things I think I would stress are vigilance and also compliance: compliance by farmers with the rules that we have in place; compliance by auctioneers in facilitating those rules; compliance by vets in ensuring that their farmers know what the rules are and that they comply with them. The way we keep this disease locked out, even with these four incidents, is to double down on the fact that everybody needs to play by the same rules to protect every farmer here in Wales. Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the 90-second statements. The first statement this afternoon is from Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Diolch yn fawr. Irene Steer was the first Welsh woman to win an Olympic gold medal. Irene was born in 1889 in Guildford Crescent, right next to the first public baths in Cardiff. When the family moved to Ty Draw Road, it was a short walk to Roath park lake, where Irene trained to become such an outstanding swimmer. From 1907 until 1913, she held the Welsh championship title every year, for seven years. Contemporary press coverage described her as a beautiful, neat and most graceful swimmer.

It was 1912 that was the first year that women were allowed to compete in the Olympic Games. There were fewer than 50 women amongst the 2,500 athletes taking part in Stockholm. The British freestyle relay swimming team was a shoo-in as they'd already beaten the world record the previous year. They had none of the back-up that today's Olympiads get. The British freestyle relay competitors were accompanied by a chaperone, not a trainer, and Irene's family had to pay for her silk swimming costume, cap and badge, as well as her travel costs to Stockholm. Irene Steer swam last, as the anchor swimmer, to secure the gold medal and maintain their world record.

Wales had to wait 96 years for another female from Wales to win an Olympic gold medal, when Nicole Cooke won a cycling gold in 2008. Remarkably, Irene's grandchildren knew that she was a massive Cardiff City fan, but nothing of her achievements, when they were growing up, nor, to be fair, did many people outside the sporting world. That was rectified last month with the unveiling of a purple plaque to Irene Steer at Roath park lake, the latest of the placiau porffor to remarkable Welsh women.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Every year, the Marine Conservation Society runs the Great British Beach Clean as part of their Beachwatch programme. Last Friday, I had the pleasure of taking part in a clean on Talacre beach in my region. Every plastic bottle, crisp packet and piece of netting that my group and I picked up will form part of the findings of the Marine Conservation Society's 2025 'State of our Beaches' report. That's the power of these events, isn't it? They go further than just cleaning up our marine environment. Recording what we've found means that we can use citizen science to create effective, informed policy to find solutions to prevent marine litter at its source. It turns a day at the beach into hard evidence for change, and change, of course, is what we so desperately need.

In 2024, the Marine Conservation Society recorded a 4 per cent increase in the average amount of litter on Welsh beaches. Drinks-related litter was found to be polluting 99 per cent of our beaches here in Wales, with glass bottles found on nearly half of these. Glass shards, as we know, pose a real risk to people, to wildlife and to pets, and it's a reminder of why it's important that we address all manner of pollution, not just plastic. That's why we need to see a deposit-return scheme inclusive of plastic, aluminium and glass, making sure that these alarming statistics don't become the norm in years to come.

We collected 1,000 pieces of litter during our short session at Talacre. If the volunteers there are anything to go by, the passion for change on the ground is undeniable. We must match that energy with effective policy, reinforcing those efforts on our beaches and turning the tide on litter.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank you both.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Next is a motion to elect a Member to a committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Move.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to elect a Member to the Senedd Commission

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We now move to a motion to elect a Member to the Senedd Commission. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Move.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: A Bill on fly-tipping

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 today is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill on fly-tipping. I call on Mick Antoniw to move the motion.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders, Jane Dodds and Carolyn Thomas for co-sponsoring this Member's legislative proposal. And I'm also grateful to the Members and individual supporters of the cross-party group on littering, fly-tipping and waste reduction, which I chair, for helping to shape this legislative proposal.

Today, like every day in Wales, 115 illegal fly-tips will take place. That's an average of five for every hour of every day. On country lanes, outside business premises, on highways, along riverbanks, in urban areas, at farm-gate entrances, in Wales right now it's open season for fly-tipping. The 42,000 fly-tipping instances in Wales during 2023-24 was a 20 per cent increase on pre-pandemic levels, and a massive 31 per cent increase on 10 years ago.

In 2015, the Welsh Government responded by publishing its fly-tipping strategy, which aimed to deliver

'a future for Wales that is free from the unacceptable social, economic and environmental harm caused by fly-tipping.'

And as we reach the tenth anniversary of the report, we can probably agree that it has not had the impact everyone had hoped for. A decade later, it appears that the number of fly-tipping instances isn't the only metric going in the wrong direction. The prosecution rate, already minuscule in 2015, has fallen from 0.3 per cent to below 0.25 per cent. Research also suggests that fly-tipping events are underreported, with only a third—36 per cent of people—who have spotted fly-tipping saying that they had reported it. In fact, almost a quarter of people in the UK don't know that fly-tipping is actually a crime.

In summary, in Wales, you are very unlikely to be reported for fly-tipping, and almost guaranteed not to be prosecuted. This means that fly-tippers act with near impunity. Overwhelmed by the number of offences, local authorities are forced to put more and more resources into the clean-up, often at the expense of enforcement and investigation activity, which perpetuates the downward spiral. This is very clearly illustrated when you speak to local authorities. As I've previously reported, one local authority told me that they'd reported 400 fly-tipping events every month, and although closed-circuit television footage of many of these offences was available, there was simply insufficient resource to examine the evidence and pursue prosecutions.

Fly-tipping is the common term to describe waste illegally deposited on land. The offence of fly-tipping, and additional offences of 'knowingly caused' or 'knowingly permitted' fly-tipping, are set out in the Environmental Protection Act 1990. Some householders fly-tip, and that is often a result of avoiding inconvenience. These people are acting illegally and without respect for the environment or their community. Nevertheless, more consideration needs to be made of how we make it easier for households, particularly those without transport, to dispose of bulky items responsibly.

Education is also an important issue, and this is recognised in the Welsh Government's 2015 strategy. For example, research shows that many householders are unaware that they have a legal duty of care to check that anyone they use to take away and dispose of their domestic waste is registered.

The great majority of fly-tipping incidents, however, are a result of deliberate criminality by rogue businesses, who are becoming increasingly well organised. Whether the offender is a commercial fly-tipper, who fly-tips to avoid disposal fees, or an organised criminal fly-tipper who fly-tips for financial reward, such as charging people for disposing of waste that they then dump, the offender is making a simple cost-benefit calculation: what is the chance of getting caught, and if I am caught, can a financial implication be accommodated? The steep rise in fly-tipping incidents suggests that, increasingly, fly-tipping represents a good commercial option. It's quite clear that there is no credible deterrent in place, and until we address this, fly-tipping will continue to increase.

What is also very clear is that fly-tipping matters to people. There is rarely a day that goes by without a report of a community being blighted by fly-tipping making headlines in the national press. And Members will have noticed that communities in Wales feature very regularly. In a survey I commissioned earlier this year, 86 per cent of people in Wales said that fly-tipping should be a high priority for the Welsh Government, and 83 per cent reported that fly-tipping is getting worse, or at least no better, in their community. In the same survey, two thirds of people said that the current deterrents are too lenient, and a similar number supported the introduction of tougher penalties.

This Member’s legislative proposal focuses primarily on how we can enhance current deterrents to make them fit for purpose. Firstly, the proposal asks for the polluter-pays principle to be applied to fly-tipping. This would mean that the offender would be responsible for meeting all the costs of either the local authority or Natural Resources Wales, including investigation, clear-up and legal expenses. We need to shape a system whereby deterring and prosecuting fly-tipping is at least cost-neutral for the local authority or NRW. Building on this, local authorities could be incentivised to invest in their fly-tipping prevention operations, with incentives linked to reduced fly-tipping incidences and successful prosecutions.

I believe this would represent a major deterrent, and would, for very many rogue commercial operators, shift the cost-benefit dial in the right direction. But this does not mean that other penalties shouldn’t be applied. Fixed-penalty notices, for example, have a role to play, particularly in respect of small-scale fly-tipping, such as leaving black bin bags next to a litter bin—an issue that the First Minister drew attention to last week. However, the number of fixed-penalty notices for fly-tipping is falling—down 8 per cent—and the maximum penalty stands at just £400, as opposed to £1,000 in England. On average, local authorities issue just one fixed-penalty notice a week.

The courts currently have a range of significant deterrents at their disposal, but they are rarely used to their full extent. For example, unlimited fines are available, but 70 per cent of prosecutions attract no fine at all. Of the fines that are imposed, the average penalty is a little over £500. As I’ve reported to colleagues previously, in the local authority area where the most prosecutions take place, the largest fine imposed was just £2,000. Courts have the authority to confiscate vehicles. The number of vehicle seizures is not collated centrally, but from information I’ve received from individual local authorities, this appears to happen very rarely. For rouge commercial operators, vehicle confiscation is not only a financial penalty, but a significant disruption to their operations. That’s why this legislative proposal asks that where fly-tipping is proven, there is a presumption that the vehicle will be confiscated.

We also need to seek powers for the extension of penalty points to be applied where people use or allow their vehicles to be used for fly-tipping. A number of the supporting organisations represented on the cross-party group tell me that—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Mick, you have used your opening and closing time already. So, you will need to—

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Can I just say that I happily look forward to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary's response to this? I think he understands the gist of the need to have legislation in place—focused legislation—and perhaps I can be given half a minute to respond, with your generosity, Dirprwy Lywydd.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I'll give you a full minute to respond, Mick, don't worry. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Mick, can I thank you for actually pursuing this? It’s an honour to be a member of your cross-party group and I know you’ve worked really hard with others, including Keep Wales Tidy and other organisations, because I think we’re all sick and tired and fed up of seeing our countryside, our urban areas, where people just dump old settees, mattresses—stuff that, really, if they can drive to these spots, they can drive to where the council will legitimately take them.

So, as Mick has already said, there were 40,000 fly-tipping incidents in Wales just last year, £2 million for clean-up costs, and 102 prosecutions in a year. One hundred and two prosecutions for that number of fly-tipping incidents is nowhere near enough.

There is a clear need for urgent reform when it comes to fly-tipping. This proposed Bill will ensure that polluters pay for the clean-up costs, and so they should, as the £2 million currently being spent could be freed up and redirected into other essential services. But we need to strengthen deterrents.

A mindset shift is essential if we are to see real change. Too often these days there is not the same emphasis on personal responsibility, on ensuring that we do not litter and that we take our rubbish home, as there was in the past. I've said this a few times with the smacking Bill—call it what you like, the reasonable punishment Bill—I would have had a smack on my legs if I'd have dropped an ice lolly wrapper. Society needs to do better than this now. We need to return to that way of discipline and that way of thinking.

I did a beach clean the other week and this lovely family were on the beach asking me what we were doing, a few of us gathering up the black bags and everything, and she told us, 'You're doing a really good job'. I returned half an hour later, they'd left, and they'd left all their rubbish too. You think, if that's adults, and I'm asking them nicely—and I had so many helpers helping. I just don't know how people can be so hard-faced.

We definitely need far greater pressure on the councils to enforce, and make sure that they're not out of pocket. Because we keep asking local authorities to do things, but often they can't afford to, they haven't got the resources. We need to ensure that we have practical incentives such as bins being regularly emptied. Too often, we see dog poo bins overfull. People carry on filling the litter bins that the council provide, despite the fact they could simply take their own rubbish home.

We need to get into schools and advertise to our children, because, as I say, I was frightened of dropping any litter. It just wouldn't happen. You put it in your pocket and you took it home. We need to be providing better and appropriate training to magistrates to improve their full understanding of the impact of fly-tipping on communities. It probably does not, in the scale of things, with all that's going on in today's society, seem to be that important—well, it is.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet, you need to conclude now. It's a three-minute allocation.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Oh, I beg your pardon. Yes, okay. Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that the stronger deterrents set out in this proposal will certainly help to address the challenge of fly-tipping and tidy up our local communities?

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd like to start by thanking Mick for the exceptionally important work that he has done on this matter, with the cross-party group as well. It is an issue that is so very important. I realise now that I haven't brought the right piece of paper in with me, so I'll find it on my screen here.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

There are a number of fly-tipping incidents that have caused an awful lot of anger for people locally. A number of my constituents have written to me to draw my attention to how fly-tipping seems to be an ongoing problem in many areas, particularly in Caerphilly. On the Gelligaer and Merthyr common, a public spaces protection order to restrict vehicle access has been put on the Cefn Brithdir area of that common. It will run for three years. This common often has problems with illegal waste being dumped on the mountain. I've seen the mounds of rubbish there myself with one of the rangers. A lot of the waste is commercial, which means people are probably being paid to pollute our mountainsides.

I've had a complaint too from a constituent about the rubbish that is being dumped on Eglwysilan common. That constituent is a mountain biker. They often have to stop riding their bike because the wheels have become entangled in the rubbish. This deluge of litter can be seen right over the common. Many litter picks have been held by residents, but the rubbish is back within days. The council has, I understand, put signs up to suggest that the mountain is being monitored. Evidently, though, more needs to be done to tackle the root causes of this behaviour.

Litter picking groups do a wonderful thing, of course. I've paid tribute here before to the Penpedairheol Pickers, who go out once a month. I've been out with them a number of times. That one is run by Councillor Haydn Pritchard. They're a brilliant group of people. Again, they shouldn't have to do this. It's incredibly frustrating to understand why these behaviours persist.

Of course, you have the commercial scale of this, as we've heard. With some of what's seen in Gelligaer and Merthyr common, it's just the industrial scale of the waste, but that starts with when people, as Janet was pointing out, just leave a little bit of rubbish on the beach or something like that. Sometimes, you see someone who is is within walking distance of a bin—it could be where that pillar is from me—and yet they still throw it on the floor. So, obviously, a lot needs to be done here in education as well, and we've discussed this in the cross-party group.

But I do wonder, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of strengthening deterrents, what more could be done to make polluters pay for what they're doing. Mick's motion here has put forward a number of actions that could help. I think it does deserve to be taken forward by the Government.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, once again, to Mick for everything that he has been doing on this matter.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'd also like to thank Mick Antoniw for bringing forward this important debate today, and for his continued work chairing the cross-party group, of which I'm a member as well, whose recent report, 'Which Wales Do We Want to See?', could not be more timely. It warns that we're reaching a tipping point. Fly-tipping and littering are reaching epidemic levels, blighting our communities, destroying wildlife, and harming our health and well-being. Dumping rubbish poses a real and lasting threat to nature. It can leach toxic chemicals into our soil and waterways, disrupting fragile ecosystems. Plastic and metal waste can trap or injure wildlife, while hazardous materials, such as asbestos or oil, can poison the very habitats we're trying to protect. Every time rubbish is dumped, it's our biodiversity that pays the price.

Since 2020, Wales has seen a 20 per cent rise in reported fly-tipping incidents, yet an 8 per cent fall in fixed-penalty notices. That mismatch suggests not only that the problem is growing, but that enforcement is struggling to keep pace, emboldening those who think they can dump rubbish and get away with it. This is certainly disheartening to learn, but highlights that something needs to change. Current penalties are often too lenient and inconsistent to deter offenders. Mandatory vehicle confiscation would send a very clear message: if you use your van or truck to dump rubbish, you will lose it. This measure strikes at the very heart of the problem, targeting unlicensed waste operators who profit from environmental crime.

Local authorities are struggling with cuts and they don't have the resources or spare capacity to send litter pickers out into our communities and beyond town centres. A requirement that offenders meet the full costs of their investigations and clear-ups would be very welcome. Due to existing pressures, local authorities have made it clear that they cannot take on additional statutory duties without proper funding. So, if we are to place a statutory requirement on councils to investigate every instance of fly-tipping, it must come with the necessary financial support from the Welsh Government to ensure it's workable in practice. This proposal represents a real opportunity to clean up our streets, protect our countryside and send a clear message to offenders that fly-tipping will not be tolerated.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. First, I'd like to thank Mick for bringing forward this important debate today, and thank other Members for their valuable contributions.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Fly-tipping, I think we can agree, is a pernicious issue and it damages communities. There is more that we can and we should do, so I welcome the debate. Yet it is a very complex issue and securing, as has been said, successful enforcement outcomes can be really challenging. It does require co-ordinated enforcement action, intelligence sharing, and all needs to be underpinned by public awareness raising, and, yes, indeed, individual responsibility messages as well. The Welsh Government has sought to remove some of the complexity, as I'm sure you'll recognise.

We're funding Fly-tipping Action Wales. It's a programme managed by National Resources Wales, which seeks to create that partnership network that co-ordinates action across Wales. In this financial year alone, we've provided another £400,000 to Fly-tipping Action Wales, which builds upon the £1.2 million we provided over the previous three years. What this has done is allowed local authorities to have access to expert legal advice, sharing best practice through Wales, trialling enforcement initiatives, and even loaning equipment to help with their investigations.

The funding has allowed Fly-tipping Action Wales to employ enforcement officers on the ground in north and south-east Wales. These officers provide enforcement support to local authorities, such as really practical stuff—searching fly-tips, organising joint operations for waste carriers, and stop checks, as well. The Fly-tipping Action Wales programme also seeks to prevent fly-tipping occurring in the first place through those awareness-raising and communication campaigns. It's important that we keep on pumping those messages out about the role we all have—every single citizen of Wales—in disposing of our waste responsibly, especially when we pay others to do it for us. Everybody has responsibility.

This joint working, funded and led by the Welsh Government, is unparalleled in other parts of the UK; we are leading the way. However, I recognise that the debate that's being led today is to highlight some of the challenges that are still faced by regulators and others, to explore potential solutions and to try and influence, I think, as well, both this and future Governments' agendas. I'd be very keen, by the way, to meet with the chair of the cross-party group to pick up some of these points and to explore the potential in some of these proposals.

Some of the proposals we have today express frustration with the criminal justice system. I sympathise with this and, indeed, I welcome any opportunity to seek improvements, but there is a balancing act to be had here, as the chair, with his legal background as well, will understand, I'm sure. For example, the strident calls to require magistrates to seize and destroy vehicles for all fly-tipping convictions. There's a balance here between potentially undermining the independence of a court when handing out proportionate sentences—do we override or constrain that independence? But we should explore this.

There are some interesting proposals on penalty points on licences for those who fly-tip or litter from their vehicles—that's quite interesting, but it would require engagement, probably, with the UK Government. There are some calls for strengthening the polluter-pays principle, and as Members will know, the polluter-pays principle underpins much of the policy we have in Wales. Courts, of course, can already apply financial penalties to compensate for clean-ups and investigations and enforcement costs, but the proposal suggests that we can do more. So, again, I'd welcome some discussion on these points.

I'm also very aware of efforts by the UK National Fly-tipping Prevention Group, of which the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales are members, to work with regulators to improve the robustness of prosecutions being brought forward, and this does include the provision of clearer guidance. I do believe that progress is being made, but I acknowledge that there is more to be done and should be done by this Government and the next in this area. This does include working with the UK Government to identify where we can work together in ensuring that there is greater consistency in the enforcement action taken against fly-tippers. Because some of the fly-tipping is seriously criminal and has networks behind it.

I'm genuinely broadly supportive of changes that would strengthen enforcement action against fly-tippers. I believe that in this proposal, we need further discussions and probably some further refinements on the proposals in this. So, I'd like to extend that genuine offer to meet with the chair of the cross-party group to discuss these proposals further. Realistically, I'm sure the chair is aware, it's highly unlikely, in the extreme, that there's going to be a legislative slot available for progress on any of this within this particular parliamentary term. It's full enough with environmental legislation that we have already. But I do think that some helpful discussions would help explore some of the thinking behind the individual proposals and possibly others and allow further consideration of any potential implications and any challenges.

My thanks to the chair but other Members who've contributed today, but also, I've got to say, to all those throughout Wales, from volunteers to statutory bodies, to enforcement officers and others, who work tirelessly to protect our communities from this scourge of pernicious fly-tipping. I look forward, if the chair will take me up on that offer, to engaging further on some of the ideas within this. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Mick Antoniw to reply to the debate.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

I will be very brief, Chair, and I'm grateful for the extra bit of time. I will certainly welcome the opportunity to meet with you on this. I, of course, won't be standing in the next elections and I'm under no illusion in terms of the reality of legislation. The purpose of this proposal is to bring together all existing relevant legislation, to consolidate it, to amend it and to strengthen it, and to give a clear legislative focus for the benefit of local authorities, citizens and the judiciaries. My hope is that we'll be able to work so that this is a matter that is non-contentious, that is cross-party, but that will provide the basis for legislation into the next Senedd. And to that purpose, on 29 January, the cross-party group is going to hold a briefing, not just for Senedd Members, but for all those who may put themselves forward as candidates. So, there's a briefing to prepare that ground, and I agree, there's considerable work. This is a complex area, but I'm sure that we can prepare the ground for legislation for the next Senedd. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

6. Debate on petition P-06-1489, 'Legislate to ensure swift bricks are installed in all new buildings in Wales'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 today is a debate on petition P-06-1489, 'Legislate to ensure swift bricks are installed in all new buildings in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion—Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. Swifts are amazing. They are the fastest birds in level flight on the planet, capable of moving at more than 100 km an hour. They sleep, eat, drink and mate on the wing. But swifts are also Wales's fastest declining birds. The latest breeding bird survey figures for Wales show that the decline is now at more than 76 per cent since 1995, even worse than since the petition was submitted, and there has been a 56 per cent decline in just the last 10 years. Across the UK, there were 59,000 breeding pairs at the last official count, and experts fear that that could now be as low as 40,000 this summer.

Swifts are red-listed as birds of conservation concern, and one of the main causes of this alarming decline is loss of nesting sites, which is why campaigners have been arguing for the installation of swift bricks in all new houses. A swift brick is a hollow brick that slots into the brickwork of new or old homes, providing a space where swifts can nest. Swift bricks are easy to install. They don't need maintenance or replacement, and are made by brick manufacturers large and small. They typically cost only about £35, and swift bricks do not allow swifts to enter buildings. There is only one exit and entry point.

The petition was submitted by Julia Barrell with 10,934 signatures. The petition and its goal are supported by RSPB Cymru, Wildlife Trusts Wales and citizen community groups from villages and towns across the nation, including representatives from the Welsh Wildlife Trusts youth forum. And the text reads:

'Legislate to ensure swift bricks are installed in all new buildings in Wales

'Swifts are the fastest birds in level flight and can sleep, eat, drink and mate on the wing. Their cries define Welsh summers. Sadly, they are rapidly declining—down 72% in the last 30 yrs. Swifts nest in holes in buildings. Renovation makes them homeless, and new-builds currently offer no cavities. Without more nesting options, swifts will disappear. Incorporating swift bricks into all new developments would help swifts (and other struggling birds like house martins and sparrows) to recover.'

Due to the scale of Welsh decline and the ongoing destruction of their unprotected nest sites, campaigners argue that only a mandatory approach to installing swift bricks will provide enough nest spaces to allow swifts to recover to anything like former levels. Regulatory or legislative change is needed for this.

In addition to supporting swifts, the bricks have also been found to help other cavity nesting birds, including the rapidly declining red-listed house martin, the house sparrow and starling. Blue tits, great tits, nuthatches and wrens will also nest in the bricks.

The Senedd Petitions Committee has engaged with a number of Ministers before bringing this debate. Responsibilities for biodiversity, planning and housing sit with different Ministers. While there is widespread concern for the plight of swifts and a universal desire to ensure that they are able to thrive, there are concerns about imposing a new duty on house builders and potential unintended consequences for wider biodiversity targets.

We know that while swift bricks are necessary, alone they won't be enough. We also need to encourage growth in the range of small flying insects that swifts feed off. They, too, have been in decline. To encourage habitat for insects we need messy gardens, amenity spaces, no-mow verges and other wildlife corridors. That’s a job for all of us, as well as for public bodies, to create those biodiversity friendly wildlife spaces. I hope that today’s debate will allow us to explore the things that are already being done and the barriers to further action.

Given where we are in the life of this Senedd, with an election just months away, I understand that it may not be possible to have legislation on swift bricks in this term, but this debate today gives us an opportunity to put the issue on the radar of all parties as we all put together manifestos for 2026.

This petition argues that swift bricks are a simple, low-cost way of supporting our vulnerable species. The rapid decline in species numbers means that time is running out for them. I look forward to today’s debate and hearing ideas that will enable swift numbers to stabilise and return to previous levels. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Unfortunately, not all Members that wish to speak will be called. We will see how things progress. Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I fully support action to improve biodiversity and welcome initiatives that help struggling species, such as the swift. Unfortunately, the swift population has been rapidly declining, and the number in the UK has decreased by nearly 60 per cent since 1995. Like many other birds, such as the house martin, as has already been mentioned, swifts joined the red list for the first time in 2021. Something must be done.

Swift bricks have been demonstrated to provide a vital habitat for these birds and are relatively inexpensive. They can be placed into the outer walls of buildings with relative ease. Whilst I am very supportive of these bricks being placed into buildings where people want to help swifts and similar birds to nest, I'm conscious of a few things.

Firstly, my experience of these birds is that they're very messy. I've stayed in houses with swift nests under the eaves, and the wall and the floor directly under them have been absolutely covered in their mess. Although this may not be a problem for some people who welcome the birds, I can see potential health issues and flash points where some people might not welcome them.

Secondly, when we are talking about new buildings in Wales, while the odd new house here and there is not going to cause an issue, new housing estates will have large numbers of swift bricks installed in a concentrated area, and this could potentially lead to several unintended problems. Touching again upon the mess they can leave, I worry that many people will end up just covering these bricks up. But more importantly is the fact that concentrated populations of swifts may impact other species who compete for the same habitat and food source.

Finally, there are also the potential planning issues that could arise further down the line. If you have nesting birds in your home, you can't just turf them out if you want to build an extension or do maintenance work. For new builds, this won't immediately cause an issue, but in 10, 15-years' time, this could be a problem. Ultimately, houses are going to have to have clauses regarding nesting birds, and this could put off potential buyers and ultimately impact house-building targets.

I'm very supportive of swift bricks, but I think enforcing builders to put them into every new build will be a mistake. What I would prefer to see would be a national plan of ensuring that appropriate numbers of swift bricks are available in certain geographical areas, closer working with builders to identify potentially good nesting sites and a programme to help builders install them in sites with minimal impact. This could even be purposefully built bird towers located strategically on new estates instead of directly put into people's homes.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is an example of a great petition that has definitely attracted the imagination and attention of a lot of people in this country, but I would always urge a considered response and a better understanding by the Government of the wider implications. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd like to thank the Petitions Committee for its work on this issue and to those who signed the petition. Their commitment to the need to safeguard the swift is to be applauded, because the swift is not only a bird, it is a symbol of our summers. When we hear the song of the swift, we know that the summer has arrived. They're part of our heritage, and we should be proud of them. But they are quickly disappearing. Since 1995, the swift in Wales has reduced by almost 76 per cent. We must therefore act, and we must create a space so that they can prosper once again. This decline that we have seen should cause concern to us all.

Now, when I talk about creating a space, well, there is quite a literal way of doing that. Swift bricks can be of great assistance. They offer a cosy, safe home for the swift. I would like to know if the Government would be willing to consider what could be done. I understand that there won’t be time, perhaps, for new legislation in this Senedd, but what could be done to encourage this within the industry? We shouldn't see this as a burden, if we're looking at building regulations and so on, but rather as a practical step that could be taken in order to assist one of our iconic species. Our swifts have been part of our summers for generations and we must ensure that that continues.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Delyth Jewell reminds us today of the song of the swift. People used to ask, ‘Have you heard the swift yet this year?’, as a sign that the summer had reached us. Of course, that is not to be heard as often these days.

I also thank the petitioner and the supporters. As the Chair has said, this is one easy, practical and cheap way to help nature in Wales, and it works.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Trials in the Duchy estate found that these bricks have been a huge success, seeing a 96 per cent occupancy rate. The swift is a classic bird in these islands, and the return of a number can only help in rebalancing our ecosystems. I'm sure people in the new builds, from a comfort point of view, will be happy to have the birds there, because they'll be able to eat mosquitos, aphids and other pests that might cause discomfort in the evenings.

Now, swift bricks have been an option for many years. Their inclusion in new-build estates will help biodiversity goals, and as we've already heard from the Chair, will also assist other native birds. I agree with my colleague on the committee, Joel James. We need to fully consider the unintended consequences, and as the Chair has already mentioned, there will be time to fully consider that. We are not going to see rushed legislation with regard to this, so we will be able to consider any unintended consequences. But as we see better insulation rolled out, as we see nests removed, making swift bricks compulsory in new builds will mitigate the loss we've seen over the years.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

We will once again in Wales hear more often the song of the swift to tell us that the summer has arrived. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

As the swift champion in the Senedd, I thank Julia for her petition, and I'm sorry that I'm such a useless champion in the sense that we haven't been able to reverse the species decline. It is seriously depressing that we are still seeing this decline, and I was pretty disappointed at the contribution of Joel James, that it creates mess, because actually I don't think that's the case with swifts. I think you may be confusing them with swallows or house martins. It's such an amazing bird, and it's the iconic cry on a summer's evening that is tragically all too rare.

There's a swift tower on the barrage, which emits the sound that nesting swifts make in order to try and attract swifts, but to my knowledge we've never had a swift go and nest there. Because it's difficult, isn't it? Swifts are relying on their historical memory and they will go back to where they went the previous year, just like many other migrating birds. The only place I absolutely know is hosting swifts in the summer is the area of Ely, because they have relatively high buildings and are an established community, long before similar communities were built in my constituency.

We're never going to be putting swift bricks into bungalows, because swifts are never going to want to nest in a bungalow, because it's far too low. These are aerial birds. I do know that one of my local churches with a very tall spire, which is a Victorian church, has indeed taken the trouble to install swift bricks, but I have yet to have reported to me that there are any swifts nesting there. So, it's a really complicated problem. We need to ensure that, when a building comes down that had swifts nesting in it, it's always, if it's going to replaced, always mandatory that they have to put swift bricks there. It's so easy to do, and they cost as little as £25. The constructors are up there anyway. Nobody else is ever going to go up there, so even if there was a bit of guano around the nest, this is not an area that anybody in their right mind is going to be going to. They require no maintenance, they give no access to the roof space—as Carolyn said, they're a one-way trip; you have to go out the way you came in.

The University of Sheffield study found that 75 per cent of bird and bat boxes as a condition of planning permission fail to materialise. So, I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary how we could enforce the mandatory requirement that buildings over a certain height are expected to install swift bricks, unless there is a very good reason why they shouldn't be there. But this should be the local authority imposing the conditions that they have put to the development.

We can't go on like this, otherwise we will never have any swifts, and our grandchildren will never be able to hear them. It's an absolute tragedy, and we need to do more now to preserve and help this noble bird to multiply.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Do you know, I have to confess I love swifts and swallows, and sometimes I don't know which is which? But what we do know is that there has—

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

You're not the only one. [Laughter.]

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Oh right, good. We do know that there has been a 76 per cent drop in the Welsh population of swifts since 1995. They're on the red list of bird species in the most serious decline. That's according to North Wales Wildlife Trust. This is the fastest-declining species in Wales. The average lifespan of a swift is nine years, but there is a record of one that lived until a record age of 21. These wonderful birds are currently, as I mentioned, red-listed as a bird of conservation concern.

One of the main reported reasons for their decline is the loss of suitable nesting sites. They are simply struggling to find appropriate spaces to build their nests, as they are becoming scarce. The petition—. Thank you to all the petitioners, and thank you to the Chair of our Petitions Committee. We are duty bound, as far as I'm concerned, now that we've got—. We've enhanced the Petitions Committee over the years; we're duty bound to listen to our concerned residents. And I have no hesitation in supporting, maintaining support, for swift bricks going in. It's not a lot of money for a house to be built with swift bricks in.

The petition highlights that many new builds currently offer no cavities suitable for nesting. This, along with the destruction of unprotected nesting sites, does raise serious concerns about the long-term survival of swifts in Wales and across the UK. They want to include swift bricks. These bricks are BSI standardised, affordable, sustainable, easy to install, and they don't require any maintenance. By building in these swift bricks, I think it'll be great for children. We see it with house martins when we go abroad. How often have we seen house martins nesting? And actually, now that our climate's going a little bit warmer, we see them in our country, and children are fascinated with them. And I think it teaches children about animal welfare and about being a compassionate individual.

We are facing a nature crisis. Taking steps like this will help address part of the problem. I've got to thank Julian from the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds for his dedication and ongoing work. He's one of my constituents. He's written a number of books on birds and about species decline, and he's just a credit to the RSPB. So, Cabinet Secretary, would you agree with me that urgent action does need to be taken to address the decline in nature, including the decline of swifts?

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you to those who have signed this petition for drawing attention to a simple but effective method that could be used in new builds in order to safeguard the swift. This is certainly worth looking into further. There are a number in the Arfon constituency who've contacted me on this issue, and this is what one constituent from Bangor had to say, and I quote him in the original language:

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

'I've placed a swift nest box on my house and succeeded in attracting a nesting pair this year, but inserting a swift brick in new-build housing has minimal cost and is much safer than tottering up a ladder with a box under your arm. UK Government recently rejected this idea in the Planning and Infrastructure Bill, claiming there are other ways. I'm not sure how safe Ministers feel up a ladder. This is a chance for Wales to show the way again on environmental issues—a small brick in the wall, you could say.'

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to contribute to the debate— Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much, and thank you to the Petitions Committee, and also to colleagues for some really passionate contributions in the debate this afternoon and for the chance to respond.

I commend the petitioner in seeking measures to secure the recovery of nature, and I just want to be really clear at the outset that the petitioner's intentions very closely match our own. Indeed, the Welsh Government is currently taking a new Bill through the Senedd to bolster our response to halting the decline of nature. The new Bill will require Welsh Ministers to set statutory domestic biodiversity targets. The Welsh Government's priority areas of safeguarding and recovering species and ecosystem resilience offer the potential for further action to support swift populations. And equally, the actions that we're currently taking to meet the United Nations global biodiversity framework, such as the 30x30 targets, will, over time, also deliver benefits for bird populations, including swifts. And whilst I can agree with the petition that a swift brick can certainly be an effective solution to help nature in some circumstances, my concern is that having too narrow a focus on one type of bird or intervention can have some unintended consequences. I want to avoid a situation where overall outcomes for biodiversity fall short of what we're already seeking as part of our legislative and policy frameworks.

Planning policy is already in place to ensure that new developments provide a net benefit for biodiversity, and this means leaving nature in a better state than before. This is achievable through our place-based approach in 'Planning Policy Wales', which allows us to get the right solution in the right place. Perhaps the most important point here is that a focus on the installation of swift bricks as the only contribution to securing a net benefit for biodiversity might mean that developers avoid doing wider and potentially more impactful work, such as providing pollinator-friendly planting, pond creation, hedgerow planting, or restoring degraded habitats.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Cabinet Secretary, will you take an intervention? I cannot see why something costing £25 that can be done in one movement by a bricklayer is going to deter them from doing other things like planting hedgerows. I really contest the argument you are making. We need action on swifts because they are in such catastrophic decline. That's why they're on the red list.