Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 9 July 2025

300 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, and the first question is from Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to maximise the benefits of city and growth deals? OQ62987

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

There are four city and growth deals in Wales, delivered by regional partners, part-funded by the Welsh and UK Governments. Each deal is unique, reflecting the opportunities within each region. The Welsh Government meets regularly with each city and growth deal to support delivery and maximise investment across Wales.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. It's a very complicated landscape, because not only do we have corporate joint committees and public services boards, we also now have the UK Labour's industrial strategy with its eight priority areas. So, I'm wanting to explore how we ensure that the city deals are investing in projects that are going to maximise the benefit to the whole of the area in question. For example, I was puzzled to see that Cardiff capital region was investing in improving the back of Cardiff Central station, which is a 'nice to have', but I was struggling to understand how it really was going to benefit the whole of the Cardiff capital region, and particularly its northern arc. I just couldn't see it, given that we already have a lot of excellent retail provision in Cardiff, and it feels that any add-on is something the public sector could do. So, how do you ensure that these city and growth deals are compliant with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and seeing these things holistically?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for the question. I think the city and growth deals are really important vehicles, really, for delivering the aspirations of the future generations Act, in terms of ensuring that the investments and the developments that they are progressing are very much delivered within the context of the future generations Act, both in terms of the ways of working, so involving the communities and thinking for the long term, but then also in relation to the things that we want to achieve through the future generations Act as well.

We're really clear that the industrial strategy, which you referred to, can be a really important mechanism, again, for driving growth and prosperity, and that prosperity has to be felt by everyone and available to everyone. And that's why our officials are meeting next week, I believe, with the leads from the corporate joint committees to ensure that those priority areas are well understood by the CJCs and that the opportunities that are now coming forward, through the industrial strategy, will be coherent with the existing plans of the CJCs. Because what we don't want is to have a landscape that is complicated for investors and complicated for those individuals who are charged with delivering those projects as well. So, it's important that we do have those discussions that link up the industrial strategy, as you say, with the CJCs.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, you kindly facilitated a visit to the St Athan enterprise zone and the developments that are going on in the old RAF camp. A little further down the road is the Aberthaw power station, which the city deal, obviously, is in the process of remediating as a business park for numerous functions. I couldn't help but get the impression that the two operations, very close together, are chasing the same thing. So, how do you make sure that the Welsh pound isn't being replicated and not necessarily delivering the biggest bang for its buck, by making sure that those two projects—one promoted by the city deal, the other promoted by Welsh Government—work in unison to maximise the job opportunities and investment potential for the Vale of Glamorgan, rather than replicate their efforts and ultimately end up not achieving the objectives we all want to see?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

No, we absolutely don't want to be in the space of duplicating work or replicating efforts. So, we do work really closely with all of the city deals, with the CJCs. We meet very regularly—both myself and other Ministers meet with the leads of the CJCs, and the engagement at official level is really strong and ongoing. So, we do work really hard to make sure that our investments are complementary. And let's remember, of course, that with the city and growth deals, the investment there is partly UK Government, it's partly Welsh Government, but also it's there, then, to ensure that we're able to attract that investment from private enterprise as well. So, we are always looking for ways to co-invest with the CJCs, and I think that's another way in which we can avoid that kind of duplication. But I think having those clear plans in place for what we wish to achieve is really important. And I do think that we have that, through our plan-led approach, through the national plan, but also the regional work that is taking place. And, of course, every local authority now has a plan in place also—bar one at the moment.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have to say, Cabinet Secretary, that I don’t share quite some of the lack of optimism in the first two questions. I actually think the developments around the station are a really good thing, particularly to the south, which is in my constituency, in Butetown—for which I know I’ll continue to fight for investment—but also the investment taking place in the metro that will transform opportunities around Butetown, and indeed around Cardiff, and in particular the Cardiff Crossrail project—good for transport, good for the economy too. It's always been my view that we need more employment land in Wales, not less. So, seeing St Athan and Aberthaw being taken forward I think is a real positive.

I want to return to some of the points you’ve made around stability. Seeing the industrial strategy, seeing the spending review, seeing the city and growth deals that were created at a different time, before we had a strategy, I wanted to see coherence. So, I just want to be clear, in terms of the review and the work you say your officials are doing with each of the CJCs, whether you expect that not just to deliver capacity and a willingness for greater joint work between regions and the Welsh Government, but a greater sense of ambition, and when do you expect to report back to the Senedd on what I hope will be agreements with all of the regions in Wales around what that greater sense of achievement and ambition could look like moving forwards?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think all of the CJCs and all of the city and growth deals have real ambition at their heart. I think it is fair to say that progress is happening at different rates across Wales. I think that there’s no denying that. I’m really pleased with the work, though, that’s happening in the Cardiff capital region. At the end of March, the region reported committed funds of £420 million for projects, and they support interventions across those four strategic priorities, one, of course, being connecting the region, which is why that intervention that you’ve referred to is so important. But also, skills and employment, innovation, and regeneration and infrastructure are top of the agenda for that CJC. So, I think, all of those things together will absolutely be the right recipe, really, for ensuring that we can increase employment and increase opportunities, working, as I say, in tandem with the work through the industrial strategy, and the investment that will come through the UK Government, through the British Business Bank, through the national growth fund and so forth.

So, there are an awful lot of things happening in the economic development space, in terms of what’s happening on a regional basis between Welsh Government and UK Government. But I do think that we are able to co-ordinate that in a way that maximises the different tools and the different interventions that each party can bring to that table.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to deliver fast fibre broadband in Monmouthshire? OQ62995

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Responsibility for broadband rests with the UK Government. But despite this, we have provided access to gigabit-capable broadband to 1,817 premises in Monmouthshire, through our full-fibre roll-out, and fast broadband to 122 premises in Monmouthshire, through our local broadband fund. And we've also developed a business case for further intervention.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. It's reassuring that there is some progress, because we all know that we take it for granted now that we need fast broadband—it's a necessity of life. But in Monmouthshire, according to the latest statistics, 1,400 people have still got speeds of less than quarter of a megabit, with speed normally a lot lower in the rural areas. And that isn't good enough in this day and age. And when you dig deeper into the data, you see that 2,400 people in the constituency have speeds of around 1.25 megabits, so still nowhere near where it needs to be.

We have several rural clusters who have internet speeds that are simply just not fast enough for modern life. There are 6,000 people in Monmouthshire who do not have access to speeds that are considered fast, and we need 'fast'. And in reality, they are not even close to the minimum of what should be acceptable. So, these communities often feel forgotten and cut off from the rest of the community. So, this is one thing that we must be acting on to bring them back into the fold.

So, can I therefore ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what further action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that that roll-out of broadband technologies will reach those rural hard-to-reach spots, such as those we find in isolated areas of Monmouthshire?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for that question. I'm pleased to say that 94 per cent of homes and businesses across Monmouthshire do have access to fast and reliable broadband, with 77 per cent in Monmouthshire able to access gigabit-capable full-fibre broadband. But as you say, there does remain a small minority without access to a fast and reliable connection. That's why we've developed the business case that I referred to for the extending high-speed broadband project. So, that will be reinvesting returned funds from the superfast broadband roll-out, to improve digital connectivity at premises that currently don't have access to at least superfast broadband speeds. A supplier framework is being developed for that at the moment. We do anticipate that the first call-off will be offered from this in the autumn of this year, and work on the ground starting as soon as possible thereafter. But I've also been really pleased to reopen the Access Broadband Cymru scheme, which was paused, if colleagues will remember, to enable some work to be undertaken, to ensure that it continues to deliver that targeted, flexible and responsive approach. It did reopen to applications on 7 May. Since the scheme reopened, we have received a further 65 applications from Monmouthshire, and 53 of those have already had funding offers. That amounts to around £12,063 invested in that in Monmouthshire since it reopened. As I say, it's still available for those individuals and businesses that need it.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on the party spokespeople. Firstly, Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Football is part of our national identity, and in north Wales in particular, it's central to many communities. With many clubs at the core of our local life, and Wrexham Association Football Club capturing global attention, football represents not only a cultural asset, but a real opportunity for regeneration and growth in some of our most deprived communities, as well as an important part of a preventative health strategy. Yet, the level of investment in grass-roots football facilities remains wholly inadequate. We are seeing towns without a single all-weather pitch and clubs having to rely on outdated and unsuitable facilities. The funding currently offered to the Football Association of Wales is barely enough to fund a handful of 3G or 4G pitches, while demand is far, far greater. They are also relying mostly on UK Government funding, through the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, to provide this funding, with Boris Johnson seeing a gap in sports funding in Wales that wasn't being plugged by the Welsh Government. This is part of a much wider crisis, with Wales ranking third from bottom in Europe for sports funding per capita, behind the UK average and comparable nations.

So, can I ask the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership what representations he is making to the Cabinet Secretary for finance, and Sport Wales, to radically increase the funding available for grass-roots football and sports facilities, particularly those in north Wales, where many communities feel like they've been left behind?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank Gareth Davies for those questions? He's absolutely right to call football a sport of national identity for Wales. It's fantastic, isn't it, that we've just seen, for the first time ever, the Cymru women's team debut in their first major tournament? I look forward to being with the team on Sunday against their biggest rivals, England. But he's right to point to grass-roots football, because we don't see the stars like Jess Fishlock or Elise Hughes just appear. They start at grass-roots clubs, Presiding Officer, and that's why we're proud to invest in our grass-roots facilities.

The Member mentioned Sport Wales. He will also be aware that Sport Wales have had an increase in their capital budget this year, a budget that he tried to vote against. He mentions the UK Government's investments in this area. Well, he will see the work of the Cymru Football Foundation, and we've worked in partnership with the Cymru Football Foundation, with the new UK Government, and you will have seen further investment through that programme. You will see grass-roots facilities right across Wales have investment, not just in all-weather pitches, but in other areas as well. I think it's Bangor who are leading the way on the first 4G pitch of its kind, and that's investment that we are proudly making with our colleagues in UK Government.

But he mentions other areas of sport as well, because it is not just about sporting facilities. He mentions the history of sport, and he mentioned Wrexham AFC. I know Lesley Griffiths, I think the Senedd's biggest Wrexham fan, is in the Chamber today. Well, Lesley will be pleased, along with the Member for the Conservatives, about the investment in the history of football. We will be opening the doors to the football museum of Wales in the next year, and I very much look forward to that, taking part.

Just one extra piece, Deputy Presiding Officer, because I can see you looking at me. The Member mentioned grass-roots facilities in other areas. I was pleased to be with councillors in Splott just recently where we, as part of the £1 million investment from the women's team making the Euros, have invested in their sporting facility to do just exactly what he asks.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for that response, Minister. We heard from the FAW that north Wales is consistently punching above its weight, with ambitions to host a fixture in the FIFA Women's World Cup in 2035. But those ambitions are being stifled by a lack of pitch infrastructure and investment. So, I'm keen to understand how the Welsh Government and Sport Wales strategically map where investment is most needed, to ensure that towns like Colwyn Bay, Denbigh and Bangor are being prioritised for facilities funding. Because, whilst the UK Government have invested significantly into grass-roots football, including through the community ownership fund, which has been transformational in places like Clwb Pêl Droed y Rhyl, where I assisted the club in obtaining this funding, the Welsh Government doesn't share this level of ambition.

We've seen the FAW do an incredible job promoting Wales through football, through music, language, even fashion—just look at the bucket hat becoming an icon, for example. Yet the money isn't there for the infrastructure. Sports funding through Sport Wales has fallen by £18.7 million in real terms since 2010, despite some increase in the capital budget. Despite that, Sport Wales continues to rely on local authorities' already strained infrastructure. So, can the Minister confirm what specific funding streams the Welsh Government is making available to support female participation in the game? And will he commit to mapping need for grass-roots football infrastructure to identify that need?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you, again, to Gareth Davies for that. Gareth talked about the opportunity to host major events in north Wales in particular, and I think the need for Wrexham's fourth stand will be very much at the front of that. But it's fair to say that the Conservative Government, when they were in Westminster, completely let down Wrexham, and they completely let down the football club around that. [Interruption.] They did. If you watch the documentary, as I've enjoyed, you'll have seen it on the documentary, where it's plain and simple there. But we will look to work with all partners in north Wales to be able to host those types of events going forward, and to work with Wrexham and celebrate all of the things that Wrexham is achieving, not just now but in the future as well.

Look, I think the FAW are doing fantastic work when it comes to participation, particularly for women and girls in football, and sports more generally. We will look to work with them, with our partners in Sport Wales and other areas. And they do look to do this through various interventions. You will see the FAW's 'For HER' campaign at the moment. We will look to support them as much as we can in that through Sport Wales.

The Member did say in his question that they have had an increase in capital funding, so it's great to see that he can recognise an increase in capital funding, even during difficult times. It's through that capital funding we can invest in infrastructure, like the facilities that he says. One of the proudest things I've been able to do as Minister for sport in the Welsh Government is support the FAW and all things Welsh football with this tournament through that partner support fund. That will go on to inspire the next generation of women and girls, and we will see the next Jess Fishlocks because of that type of investment. So, it's an investment that's gone into activities in the run-up to the tournament, during the tournament, both here and in Switzerland, and they will have a lasting legacy to promote the game of football. We will go on, in collaboration, working with not just the FAW but anyone who's interested in supporting sport and the role sport can play as a whole.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I appreciate, again, that response, Minister. But to put it into context in terms of what I was asking, those clubs like Clwb Pêl Droed y Rhyl, for example, were on the verge of bankruptcy pre COVID-19, and it was those investments made by the UK Conservative Government at the time that saved those clubs. You know, those clubs like Rhyl FC would have been long gone if it wasn't for those funding schemes. I find it astonishing that the Minister doesn't even acknowledge those as something that is the fabric of our communities. When you look at those communities, like Rhyl and others across Wales, even Connah's Quay within your own constituency, they're good hubs for those talents to be nurtured, and those need to be recognised and work collaboratively with our partners.

But, sticking on the theme of collaborative working, I'm keen to understand what collaborative work you do with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care in seeing sport as a preventative measure to some of our health problems in Wales, and what work you are doing with the Cabinet Secretary to embed sport into a national preventative health strategy, and will he commit to ensuring that grass-roots sport is recognised and funded as a core part of our public health infrastructure here in Wales?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Gareth Davies for that. And in fairness to the Member, I do agree with him on the role that sports clubs do play, in particular sports clubs like Rhyl. I know he's a big fan. I know the previous Member for his seat was also a big fan—a bigger fan—I can hear the cheers there, no doubt. I remember playing at Rhyl myself for the Nomads and all of those experiences that we've had, and he's right to point to the role that they can play more broadly.

When it comes to the work of myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, look, we have a real ambition. We recognise the role that sport can play in terms of prevention and in terms of the immediate solutions that it can offer health services and social services as well. The Cabinet Secretary and I will go on having those conversations to invest where we can in not just sports, but also the arts. And you'll see programmes from across the Government investing in health outcomes in those types of sectors.

I'll just point to one recent announcement, Presiding Officer, which was the 1,000 mental health training places for grass-roots clubs across Wales. That was funded by the Welsh Government in partnership with Sport Wales and in partnership with the FAW. That will go a long, long way, in many, many communities, in responding to some of the challenges that we need to, because we know the role that sports clubs can play in that. And the Cabinet Secretary and I will continue having further conversations on this very important matter, and I do thank the Member for bringing that forward.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to just focus on artificial intelligence and energy, because, just a few weeks ago, in Llandudno, the First Minister announced that Wales will host a new AI growth zone, an initiative that, according to the UK Government, aims to unlock investment in AI-enabled data centres. According to the International Energy Agency, AI is set to drive a surge in electricity demand from data centres, and the National Grid's 'Future Energy Scenarios' 2024 report states that data centres could become one of the UK's fastest-growing sources of demand by the 2030s. This is a sector that's accelerating rapidly, but our energy system, particularly the grid, moves at a much slower pace. So, what direct role is the Welsh Government playing in shaping these discussions, particularly in terms of grid planning and spatial strategy, and what evidence can you offer that these developments will deliver real, long-term benefits for Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for the question, which touches on two really important growth areas for Wales. And I'm really pleased to hear that reference to the work that the First Minister's put in train in terms of establishing a strategic AI advisory group and also looking towards an office for AI within the Welsh Government, to make sure that we drive forward this really important opportunity, but do so in a way that is grounded in our ethical values and so on as well, because I know that colleagues are also concerned about that.

I was really pleased to join Microsoft recently at the turf-cutting event for its new data centre in Newport. And it is important that we do support data centres, because they will be critical in terms of supporting the innovation and the AI that grows up around those data centres. But it's absolutely the case, of course, that they are very energy hungry, which is why it's so important that we continue to focus on our renewable energy strategy as well.

I think that the AI growth zone opportunity is important for us. I was really pleased to hear the UK Government announce that Wales would be host to one of those AI growth zones. Discussions are still ongoing as to where specifically that will be, but I think that across Wales there are opportunities for data centres. But also we need to be mindful that we have the energy to power those, and grid is absolutely critical to that. So, we’re working with the UK Government, with National Grid, with the National Energy System Operator, to map out what the energy needs will be in future. That work is being done on that strategic basis by NESO and we’re involved with that, and we’re able to factor in, of course, the growth of AI and data centres to that particular piece of work. That’s why it’s so important that we do have grid that is suitable for the future, and I realise that there are particular sensitivities there; we’re just going to have to work through all of those difficult issues as we move forward, also recognising the important work that the UK Government is doing with the cleansing of the waiting list, if you like, for grid connections. I talk to developers all the time who tell me that they’ve got grid connections, but it’s not until the 2030s. Luckily, now we’re seeing things move forward as a result of that work that the UK Government is doing to understand the readiness of applications that are within that queue for the grid. I was pleased to meet with NESO just last week to hear the progress that they’re making on that. Huge opportunities here, but, absolutely, we need to make sure that we do invest in the renewable energy to power data centres, but then also that the grid is able to handle the calls on it as well.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Sticking with energy demand for a moment, and I think the Cabinet Secretary is right to point out the role of renewables, it’s important that we actually address the supply side of this issue. Last month, of course, the Crown Estate awarded several 1.5 GW areas of floating wind capacity, meaning that we now have two gigascale projects in the pipeline in the Celtic sea, one of those being Gwynt Glas, a French-Irish joint venture, again spotlighting the recurring issue of a lack of Welsh ownership in the sector. Meanwhile, Octopus Energy has launched a live tracker revealing just how much wind power the grid is wasting due to curtailment. The UK has already spent nearly £700 million this year alone. There’s a reality check here I think we need to grapple with, and that is that intermittent renewables are becoming a square peg that’s being forced into a round hole of a grid not built for their variability. So, we really do need to think differently about how we tackle this issue. One way we could think differently is by investing in smart local energy systems, by investing in microgrids, and building up that energy resilience based on pragmatic solutions and energy storage that is scalable. So, could I ask the Cabinet Secretary for an update on how this work is progressing, particularly through Ynni Cymru?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Absolutely. And those smart local energy systems and private wire connections are also part of the solution to the challenges that were outlined in the first question.

So, the work on Ynni Cymru is progressing. Last year, we funded 32 projects right across Wales from the £10 million capital funding that we were able to make available for those. And those projects included the deployment of a whole range of technologies, including solar, heat pumps, battery storage and electric vehicle charging points. We have launched another round of the funding; it’s another £10 million for 2025-26, and that investment is important, then, to ensure that the benefits, really, of the transition to renewables are felt within our communities. So, we launched that latest round on 2 May; we were really keen to do it early on in the financial year this year, bearing in mind that we understood that doing it quite late on did put a lot of pressure on those organisations and businesses that benefited. So, we opened it in May and we’ve already had a significant number of applications, which are currently being evaluated. And I also hope to be able to consider whether there is any further funding that we can put in this year as well when I look across the entire budget within the portfolio.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Finally, returning back to AI, I'm genuinely glad to see some of the announcements coming out of Welsh Government looking at how we might be able to harness AI. We know there's great potential there. But there are also significant risks. I was glad to see acknowledgement from the Cabinet Secretary of the potential of setting up a department within Welsh Government to look at AI. There was also talk of investing £2.5 million in, as the First Minister put it, showing visible leadership on AI across Wales's public services. It was also good to see the Cabinet Secretary's written statement on this, which offered some useful detail, and it's encouraging to see, as I said, that the Welsh Government is seeking to convene voices from academia and industry. But a concern remains that, while these efforts are well-intentioned, the Welsh Government may not currently hold the full set of levers required to shape and manage AI's rapid development or to mitigate its risks effectively.

While I appreciate that there are already groups exploring ethical guardrails in Wales, I think that we still lack a clear, joined-up picture of how these threads might actually come together in practice—something that I hope the new department will be able to pick up. So, could I finally ask the Cabinet Secretary to clarify what exactly that £2.5 million investment will deliver? Will the new AI department have real authority to co-ordinate AI policy across Government? And will we see a robust plan to manage economic disruption and protect workers, in particular, who are at risk of displacement?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I agree that it's really important that we understand that the Welsh Government only has some of the levers, which is why the First Minister has been having discussions with the UK Government in relation to the office for AI, to help us take advantage of UK Government initiatives in this space as well.

The workers' rights issue is an absolutely critical one, and that's why the workforce partnership council for Wales has now already published some guidance on the ethical and responsible use of artificial intelligence across the public sector. That reinforces, really, our Welsh way of doing things in social partnership. So, I'm really pleased to see that and welcome the principles advocated by the guidance. They are are about preserving human oversight and interaction, ensuring fair work for all, building the capability to manage AI systems, and protecting jobs as well. So, all of those things are feeding into that particular piece of work.

I'm also really pleased to represent the Welsh Government on an international group that looks at disruptive and emerging technologies. They had a meeting very recently that specifically looked at the ethical implications of AI, and we're able to explore how we can learn from other countries as they also grapple with these challenges as well.

But, looking forward, I think that the additional funding announced by the First Minister, and the creation now of the office of AI, is going to give us that more strategic cross-Government approach. This isn't going to be an issue that is just for that office. Every single Minister, every single department, will be grappling with this. For example, I know that my colleague the health Secretary is doing lots of work to explore how the health service and the NHS can benefit from AI, and there are all kinds of applications in terms of benefits to patients. So, this is something that is for all of Government, and we're very keen to grapple with the challenges, but also make the most of what are undoubtedly huge opportunities.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

3. Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi'u cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU am rôl y sector twristiaeth a lletygarwch yn strategaeth ddiwydiannol y DU? OQ62984

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I worked closely with the UK Government in the development of the industrial strategy, and that included discussion of priority sectors. I am expecting to discuss the tourism industry, in particular, with UK and devolved Government counterparts at an Interministerial Group for Tourism meeting on 22 July.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I hope, you know, like me—. I'm looking forward to those discussions, and let's see what you can bring forward for us here in Wales. Now, last month the UK Government published the so-called modern industrial strategy. Your party, Labour, say that they're taking targeted action to transform what you consider to be the highest potential sectors, yet tourism and hospitality is excluded. The only reference is the expectation that growth in the creative industries will create opportunities for the hospitality sector. That's an absolute disgrace and an insult to Wales.

The sector provides 11 per cent of employment, accounts for 5.1 per cent of gross value added in Wales, and is the backbone of economies in constituencies like Aberconwy. That is the tourism sector that I am talking about. This industry needs a positive sector plan in the face of punitive policies from you, the Welsh Labour Government, supported by Plaid Cymru, such as the business recycling rules, the tourism tax and holiday let changes. I could go on.

Why is it that neither the Welsh nor UK Governments are choosing to introduce positive plans to boost and support our really valuable tourism and hospitality sector in Wales? And it's sad to see a Minister here, laughing—laughing at the plight of our tourism and hospitality sector.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, just to be clear, no Ministers are laughing at the challenges facing the tourism and hospitality sector—[Interruption.]

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I'd like to hear the answer from the Cabinet Secretary, please.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, the UK Government's industrial strategy, I think, has been warmly welcomed across sectors and across industry. It is place based and it is sectoral. We're very aware of that, which is why we're really keen to reassure sectors that don't find themselves explicitly mentioned within the industrial strategy that we absolutely still see them as a priority.

One of those is tourism. We do a huge amount of work to support the food sector in Wales. Now, that's not a sector within the industrial strategy, but it doesn't mean that we don't have a really strong focus on it. Similarly, in terms of that place-based approach, we're really keen and the First Minister's been very clear that she wants to take a more strategic approach to the rural economy, and we had a specific Cabinet meeting on the rural economy recently as well. So, there's a range of different sectors that I know will want reassurance that they remain a priority.

And when you look at the statistics—we've just heard some of them—the tourism industry is accounting for 11.8 per cent of employment in Wales, and generating 5.1 per cent of Wales's GVA at £3.8 billion. So, why wouldn't that be a priority? These are the reasons why we have supported the sector with a range of support. For example, I was recently able to launch the new weatherproofing fund. We launched that directly in response to requests from the sector. We asked what the biggest challenges they were facing were. One of them was the weather, so we were able to put in place that particular support. And, of course, we've just announced the recent projects benefiting from the latest round of the Brilliant Basics scheme as well.

And in terms of hospitality, we have, of course, supported a range of businesses through the futureproofing fund, allocating grants to hospitality businesses across Wales in 2024. And we are a member of the industry-led Wales tourism and hospitality skills partnership, recognising the importance of skills in the future as well.

So, I think that the industrial strategy is a strategy for industry. It's sectoral. It's really important in terms of playing to some of Wales's strength, including advanced manufacturing, the creative industries, technology and so on, but it's not the only game in town. There is support for other sectors, and a really focus on other sectors too.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

4. What measures is the Cabinet Secretary putting in place to accelerate the move towards clean domestic energy? OQ62989

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We have set ambitious targets to fully meet our electricity needs from renewable energy by 2035 and ensure that we retain value in Wales. Through Ynni Cymru, we're investing in local projects like solar panels and heat pumps to deliver clean and affordable domestic energy.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

If we are to adhere to Wales's commitment to net zero, we must accelerate the extent and pace of installing clean heating systems in our homes. I've been calling on the Government to eradicate the planning restrictions that slow down people's ability to install green heating and energy systems in their homes, including the 3m rule for air-source heat pumps. So, I'm pleased that you are making progress on that specific aspect. But there is far more that could be done by this Government, and we have to be more ambitious, bearing in mind that homes are responsible for about 10 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions. Do you agree, therefore, that it's time to introduce a home improvements programme that's region based and includes moving towards clean heat sources? Isn't it time that we introduced a far more ambitious programme than is currently in place?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for the question, and also for the recognition of the work that we're doing at the moment to consult on the rules surrounding the installation of air-source heat pumps. For the benefit of other colleagues, we're currently consulting on either removing or lowering the 3m rule. That consultation is open at the moment, and I know that there'll be interest in making submissions to that.

We do have the heat strategy for Wales. That was published in July of last year. That followed some extensive consultation, and that really does set out the pathway to decarbonising heat in domestic settings, as well as industrial settings, to achieve net zero. It demonstrates how we can reach that ambition for net zero in the public sector also. Essentially, it's a vision for clean, affordable heat in Wales. It does set out a range of activity that we need to deliver against a range of timescales as well.

Alongside that, we published an enabling plan, and that looked at what we needed to deliver in terms of skills, public engagement, supply chains and the grid in order to deliver on our ambitions within that plan. Part of our ambitions within that plan also is around ensuring that more people are able to benefit from heat pumps. We do have an ambition to install 580,000 heat pumps by 2035. Now, that will depend on UK Government support and falling technology costs, but we recognise that this is a big opportunity for households to have lower cost, reliable heat in future. So, the strategy is there, and we certainly have some ambitious goals in that space as well.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

The UK Government's Warm Homes programme includes a Barnett consequential estimated by National Energy Action to be up to £660 million for Wales, plus an annual consequential of £50 million from the UK crisis and resilience fund. While this will be part of a broader UK devolved settlement, and the Welsh Government has indicated it won't make major spending decisions before the May 2026 Senedd elections, it remains essential that Welsh Government invest this to cut bills, tackle fuel poverty and accelerate progress to benefit the environment, a view echoed by the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee. This funding presents a major opportunity to help address fuel poverty and improve the warmth, efficiency and health of homes, with benefits including lower energy bills, better health and well-being, increased property value, job creation, improved air quality and reduced emissions. What assurance can you therefore provide that the funding on your watch will be used to boost Wales's Warm Homes programme, including the Nest scheme and a new scheme targeting the most energy inefficient homes?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for those points, and I would again point colleagues to the heat strategy for Wales, which does set out a range of activity. The work that the Welsh Government does in relation to fuel poverty and Warm Homes sits in my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government's portfolio, but she will be acutely aware of the funding announced by the UK Government. Of course, we're very early on at the moment in terms of the budget cycle for this year, so I'm not able to make any commitments at this point.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I welcome the ambitions around accelerating the roll-out of clean, home-grown energy, but one issue that continues to come up is how we can ensure that that happens in a way that doesn't damage our environment. Obviously, the issue around pylons and undergrounding keeps coming up when we're talking to people about renewable energy. One of the issues is that it feels like we're not able to move forward without the report of the special independent advisory group that was commissioned some time ago. It was due to report at the end of March and still hasn't reported, so actually we're in a place where communities and developers can't plan effectively or respond without this report. Farmers and communities I've spoken to are really keen to have clean renewable energy, but they want to see those cables underground. So, may I press you again, please? Would you be able to guarantee that that report will be released by the end of this term, so that we're able to look at that and digest that over the summer? It will be at least three months late if that's the case. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I would love to see that report as soon as possible. It is an independent group and an independent report, so the timing of the publication of that report is in the hands of the group rather than the Welsh Government, but I'm as anxious as anybody to see the work that they've been doing. I think perhaps the length of time it has taken to produce the report probably speaks to some of the complexity that there is in terms of achieving consensus on something that is such a complex issue, where there is such a wide range of evidence to consider. We've asked them specifically to provide some advice on costs, for example, and we know that there is a whole range of evidence that they need to explore when they look at that. So, I absolutely understand the keenness of both communities and developers to get clarity, and I wait with anticipation for that report, and I absolutely do hope that we're in a position to see it this side of summer recess. But, as I say, that unfortunately is in the hands of the group rather than the Welsh Government.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

5. What recent discussions has the Welsh Government had with Wrexham County Borough Council regarding their local development plan? OQ62983

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Following the legal ruling to quash the council’s decision to adopt their local development plan, reverting it back to an emerging plan, I recently met with the leader of the council to discuss various options on a way forward. I am now awaiting a formal response from the council.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Cabinet Secretary is obviously very well aware of the issues surrounding Wrexham's LDP. Originally, it should have covered the period 2013 to 2028, but it has remained unadopted. Following the court ruling you referred to, it does appear there's no quick fix or, sadly, an end in sight. Not having an LDP in place does leave Wrexham open to speculative developments. Last month, in speaking to Wrexham.com, the First Minister highlighted the importance of working together,

'so we all can get on the same page and move forward. For the sake of the people of Wrexham.'

I absolutely echo the First Minister's comments. Many would agree the ongoing uncertainty and lack of clarity is extremely unhelpful, so it's very good that you've met recently with the leader of the local authority. Could you please outline the next steps and state how you believe this long-running saga can finally be satisfactorily resolved?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question. As I say, I did meet recently with the leader, alongside the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, to explore ways forward. I agree that without a clear vision for the future backed up by a statutory plan, local authorities are vulnerable to those speculative developments in a way that might not meet the needs of communities. So, it's really important for communities to have a plan in place.

Following the meeting where we did explore potential options as a way forward, the onus is now on the council to advise Welsh Ministers on a way through, and they will need to agree that, I think, through a full council meeting. We are, of course, keen to work with the council to enable anything that the council believes needs to happen in order to achieve a plan. But as I say, we now await a formal response from the council following the meeting. It is really now for the council to identify that way forward. There are options available to the council, and we're keen to support where we can.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government funding for Cardiff Airport? OQ62979

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Today I issued a written statement regarding an update on the long-term subsidy for Cardiff Airport, and I kindly refer the Member to my statement.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary, and for the written statement that was shared with Members this morning. Of course, Cardiff Airport, nationalised by the Labour Welsh Government in 2013, has already cost taxpayers close to £200 million, and Labour Ministers have decided to put a further £205 million into it over the next decade. That's £286 for every household here in Wales. That's a really significant amount of money, particularly given passenger numbers still remain below those pre-pandemic levels, and a significant amount of money for my constituents in north Wales, where Cardiff Airport is a four-hour drive away.

We heard from Darren Millar yesterday in First Minister's questions that Bristol Airport, by contrast, has impressive passenger numbers with a record year in 2024. You referenced your written statement in your initial response to me, Cabinet Secretary, and that written statement also outlines the fact that you are now on the receiving end of a legal challenge against that £205 million subsidy to Cardiff Airport, with that legal action coming from Bristol Airport via the Competition Appeal Tribunal. So, people will be asking, Cabinet Secretary, at what point will the Welsh Government admit that the current approach is not working, and at what point will you sell the airport and have somebody run it who actually knows what they're doing.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Just to provide some clarity on the figures that were referred to at the start of the contribution there, over the 22-year period that Bristol looked at when they provided those figures, which I believe the Member quoted this afternoon, in cash terms our total investment in the airport will come to just £13 per year for each household, or less than £6 for each citizen in Wales. I think it's important to provide that level of perspective.

As colleagues have said, there has been an appeal submitted against the Welsh Government's decision to provide that subsidy support to enable the economic growth potential of the airport. As a consequence now of that court action, I can't comment much further at this stage, other than to say that we absolutely recognise the importance of Cardiff Airport to the economy of the south Wales region, with thousands of jobs stemming from the airport and the economic ecosystem that is supported by it. We believe very strongly that with the right investment, the airport has the potential to make an even greater contribution to the economy, creating additional jobs and further boosting regional gross value added.

The Welsh Government investment that we propose will allow Welsh Ministers to oversee the strategic direction of the airport on the delivery of long-term economic growth, with a view to realising these benefits for the whole of the south Wales economy. We've chosen to invest in the airport to ensure economic stability and growth around that whole region. I think that our willingness to commit significant funding for the long term does reflect the confidence that we do have in the airport's economic growth potential. And, of course, just a reminder for colleagues that the Welsh Government doesn't run the airport, although Wales does own the airport.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government support for the delivery of the Cardiff Parkway development following the review with joint venture partners that's due to conclude in early July? OQ63005

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The initial review of the Cardiff parkway, which was commissioned following the grant of planning consent, has been completed this week. Officials will now meet with the joint venture partners to consider the content, and I will provide an update once a way forward has been agreed.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. In case people haven't noticed, the Cardiff parkway is a significant economic development opportunity built on a new sustainable transport development. The funding certainty that is required comes, of course, after a significant planning delay, and I recognise you weren't responsible for that planning delay, although planning is now within your job title. The First Minister committed to undertaking a lessons-learning exercise around that planning process, and I'd be interested, if not now, then in the future, if you could say something about that.

The range of delivery partners are not just the private sector partners and the Welsh Government in the joint venture board, of course. The UK Government have a role to play, because the track itself will remain a UK asset, and work is needed to be undertaken on the track to help deliver the whole parkway scheme. I am looking for an injection of pace, certainty and ambition. What I'd like to know is when do you believe there will be a delivery plan with funding certainty, following the review. It's good to hear that you're going to update the Chamber in due course, but, crucially, I want to understand when we can expect to see work commencing on the delivery of the parkway development.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I would absolutely agree that the project's benefits in terms of the economy and employment prospects for people in the area, and the improved connectivity for communities as well, provide a huge opportunity for the east of Cardiff. The initial review now that has been undertaken will help us understand what the best way forward would be. I think it was inevitable, really, that the project would need to go through that further point of review, to consider the scope and the viability of the overall masterplan, because inflation in the building sector alone has demanded that we re-evaluate our previous assumptions, to ensure that the project can be delivered and whether any alterations might be necessary as a result of those changes.

The financial structure of the project does remain to be determined, and there are a number of sequential actions that will need to be completed before we get to that point. But as I say, the review that has just been completed will provide a more in-depth scoping programme now, with the intention of ensuring that the parkway is fit for purpose.

Consequently, Cardiff Parkway Developments Ltd and South Wales Infrastructure Ltd must then decide what will go forward for the detailed design and planning. We will be fully engaged in those processes, but, of course, engaging the UK Government, as appropriate, as important partners in this as well. That wider work on planning we can have a further conversation about in due course, but colleagues will be familiar with the range of interventions that I've put in place in terms of planning to speed up the decision-making process, and I've done those things very recently.

I was able to provide Natural Resources Wales and Planning and Environment Decisions Wales with additional funding. We've been able to, through a new model through Net Zero Industry Wales, provide some additional expertise, and we're also looking at regional models now to support the use of some of those rarer skills.

Just a week or so ago, I did announce our response to the consultation on planning as well, which included moving towards full cost recovery for planning applications, so that local authorities are able to reinvest those moneys into the planning services. The intention is very much that that is reinvested in order to improve the experience that developers have, and the way in which communities are able to engage with those applications.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, question 8, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to guarantee the provision of energy supplies to critical national infrastructure? OQ62990

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The provision of energy supplies to critical national infrastructure is a reserved matter. However, the Welsh Government works closely with stakeholders in Wales, including local resilience fora, to put in place the necessary capabilities to plan for risks associated with the interruption to energy supplies.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Last week saw the release of details about the fire that ground Heathrow Airport to a halt for days on end. As if to underline the vulnerability of our energy grid, the power failure saw the closure of the M4 in both directions, having a serious impact on transport to and from Wales.

An investigation found that National Grid had been aware of a problem at the substation that supplies Heathrow for seven years, but failed to fix it. Just as worrying, the report also found that energy network operators are not generally aware whether customers connected to their network are critical national infrastructure.

Cabinet Secretary, I know the Welsh Government are not responsible for the grid. However, you are responsible for our critical infrastructure. What discussions have you had with the National Energy System Operator and the energy companies to ensure that lessons are learnt to protect infrastructure here in Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for the question. I meet regularly with both NESO and with individual energy companies. I was really pleased, actually, on a visit to RWE in Pembroke just last week, to explore some issues, including the situation that happened in Portugal. I was really interested that RWE is constructing something called a synchronous condenser—I was hoping I'd get the chance to say that in the Chamber today. That's a really interesting piece of kit that will prevent situations such as that which we saw in Portugal, which really did affect national infrastructure, happening in Wales. I think that is a really important investment.

But then, more widely, the First Minister has set out our priorities for enhancing our own national resilience and the associated priorities around that in the Wales resilience framework, which was announced by the First Minister in May of this year. That was developed in partnership with the emergency responder community and does help us in terms of how we would respond to any issue that related to disruptions to our energy supplies.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 2 today is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question will be asked by Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

1. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact on patients of the Welsh Government's latest proposed changes to NHS dentistry? OQ62996

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We believe these proposals will ensure every patient receives individualised advice on prevention, increase capacity to provide treatment to those with disease, establish pathways that enable people with elevated levels of oral disease to receive treatment, improve quality and ensure there is always capacity for new patients.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I think the latest proposed changes to NHS dentistry in Wales have the potential to be damaging to patient well-being. Under these proposed changes, patients can be moved between dental surgeries to receive their treatment, rather than having one constant place of dentistry. This means that, say, a patient in Chepstow may be asked to go for an appointment first thing in the morning as far away as Brynmawr, which could be incredibly difficult for many elderly and vulnerable people, especially those in rural constituencies such as mine, where public transport is unreliable or infrequent.

I was especially concerned to see that the consultation has not been widely publicised, with many of my constituents only finding out about it when they visited their dentist. As a result, I've had several people, especially elderly people, contact me. The consultation has now closed, but what assessment has the Welsh Government made of that particular proposal on those most vulnerable people, especially in rural communities?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I don't accept the premise of the Member's question. I don't believe that that will be the consequence of the reforms in the contract that is being consulted upon. He is right to say that the relationship between you and your dental practice is important for people, in particular with chronic conditions, like tooth decay and with gum disease. Under the current system, as the Member may know, once a course of treatment has been provided, there is no requirement, in fact, for that practice to continue to see you again for a check-up or further treatment. But I will give the Member the comfort that the only people who I think might see a different dentist are those who are entirely healthy, and this is no different to any other part of the NHS.

On his point about distance to travel, he will know that, when registering to access the dental access portal, patients are able to say how far they're willing or able to travel, and that will obviously be taken fully into account.

I'm surprised to hear him say that he thought the consultation was not widely promoted. I think it's one of the largest consultation responses to any Welsh Government consultation, with over 6,000 responses. And I'm sure many of his constituents would have participated in that; I very much hope so. It suggests to me that people right across Wales have engaged with the consultation. It's probably premature to engage in the detail of our response to that, but I will be making a further statement after the recess in relation to the consultation responses and next steps, so I hope you'll find that helpful.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

2. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of access to GP services in north-east Wales? OQ62977

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government is committed to improving access to GP services across Wales through additional capacity funding and our review of the access standards. The ‘Train. Work. Live.’ scheme continues to support and incentivise GP recruitment for areas, including north Wales.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. The fact that more than 100 GP surgeries have shut across Wales since 2012 is one that should deeply concern every Member here. It has a terrible impact on the health and well-being of our constituents. And this is no different in north-east Wales. Residents in Gwersyllt recently told me that they have a lack of adequate GP services, making them less healthy, and they recognise that they're putting pressure on emergency services and hospitals, especially at the Maelor in Wrexham.

You will be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that a recent comprehensive review by University of Southampton found that patients have a strong preference for direct consultations with a GP, with an emphasis on in-person appointments. So, given this patient preference and the outsized impact that a good GP service has on reducing pressures at the hospital front door, how are you ensuring that north-east Wales is prioritised when it comes to that training and recruiting of GPs in the years and decades ahead?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the number of GPs in Wales is broadly stable, actually, over both the short term and the long term, and we've seen, actually, an increase in clinical staff, who are a key part of the wider practice team, which GPs tell us, and patients tell us, are an important part of making sure that patients have the access that they need to GP services.

The primary care model for Wales, as he will know, is key to ensuring the care that patients need and it emphasises that the GP is not the only first point of contact, and, obviously, patients are increasingly becoming aware of that. He's right to say that providing access to GP services is crucial in being able to make sure that patients have the care they need, and also, in the way that he was saying in his question, that other parts of the NHS don't pick up, if you like, that additional pressure. And I accept the point that he makes in relation to that in his question.

As part of the 2024-25 contract agreement—so, just for the year gone—we committed to review the access standards that have been in place for a number of years to strengthen compliance with what we would probably all describe as 'the 8 a.m. bottleneck'. We have seen progress in relation to that, but I've tasked health boards to verify the evidence that practices provide to them of compliance with those standards and to make sure that those standards are being maintained.

I think one of the challenges has been that, as pressures have increased on GPs, as demand has increased, in particular over recent years, that ability to provide continuity of care, in particular to those patients who may be managing more than one chronic condition, or may be particularly frail—it has not been possible to continue with that, and that creates additional pressures for those practices, and, importantly, for those patients as well.

So, as of April this year, we’re working with GP practices on what we call a quality improvement approach, where practices can identify that cohort of patients who can most benefit from continuity of care, and provide that increasingly to them, which should help stabilise part of that pressure. I would like to think that, over time, that can once again become a routine expectation for more and more of us, though he will appreciate that that will take some time.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Several GP surgeries in my constituency of Wrexham now use a triage system that requires a form to be completed online. Of course, many constituents are still digitally excluded, with no access to the required technology. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure GPs, but also the health board, support these patients?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member will know that I mentioned the access standards in my earlier answer, and they require GP practices to provide a number of different ways of engaging with the practice. So, those are already part of the standards, and that’s what I want health boards to monitor compliance with in a more proactive way than we have required them to do in the past.

The Member is absolutely right to say that not everyone feels comfortable or is able to engage only with digital channels. What I would say, though, is the more people we can get to engage through digital channels, that naturally frees up capacity elsewhere to support those patients who won’t want to do that, or won’t be able to do that. So, as we see the uptake of the NHS app, for example, one of the things patients say to me is, 'Well, I’m not sure I’ll be that familiar with how to use it.' It’s actually pretty straightforward. However, for every one person we can get to use the app, that’s another element of capacity in the system to support those patients that the Member rightly says we need to make sure are served in the same way.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson first of all—James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, your own waiting list reduction ambitions depend on ensuring there is sufficient anaesthetist capacity, given that most operations simply cannot proceed without them present. The Royal College of Anaesthetists's latest workforce report shows that Wales is 120 anaesthetists short of what is needed. That’s a 17 per cent shortfall. It is estimated that this shortfall alone could be preventing around 90,000 operations and procedures each year in Wales from taking place. So, can you set out what assessments you have made of the impact of this workforce shortage on the Welsh NHS’s ability to reduce waiting lists, and what concrete steps are you taking to address this gap, so that more Welsh patients can get their operations done?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

This is a matter that I have discussed with the royal college, in relation to pressures on the workforce. I agree with the Member that making sure that we have the workforce in place, in the right roles, with the right skill set, is obviously important in our ability to deliver on the ambitious plans that we have to continue the progressive reduction that we’ve seen in waiting times for patients right across Wales.

I am confident that the plans that we have for the year ahead, which will get us to a place where there are no patients waiting for two years, or we’re back on the eight-week diagnostic target, and that we take 200 patients off our waiting lists—that those plans are deliverable, with the configuration of workforce that we have in place at the moment. He is, however, right to say that that is something that we need to make sure remains under review. We have an arrangement, as he knows, to commission education and training places right across the NHS workforce through Health Education and Improvement Wales, and we will work with them to make sure that the needs of the NHS are met.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, one of things as well that is stopping operations, because nearly 90,000 surgical procedures were postponed last year, with many patients arriving for surgery, who were in a poor state of health to begin with, due to issues like smoking, undiagnosed diabetes, frailty, people being overweight, which does lead to cancellations, complications and longer stays in hospital—. We know that early screening and prehabilitation turn waiting lists and drive them down, because people aren’t waiting as long to get seen.

I know the Welsh Government has made some progress in implementation. But I’m just wondering what further work you’re doing on this area, around prehabilitation, to make sure that people are fit for operations, because, as I said, we are seeing far too many people presenting who are not fit to be operated on, and when they are operated on, they’re sat in hospitals for far, far too long, which is bedblocking, and actually stopping the day cases, which we need to see, to make sure we can get through that waiting list quicker. So, I'd just like to know what further work you're doing in this area.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member will remember, a few weeks ago, when I made the announcement in relation to our ambitions over the course of the next year, that part of that was a new approach towards, firstly, the keeping of appointments—700,000 appointments missed for out-patients last year—and also making sure that the system is more proactive about identifying those patients who are not yet ready for surgery, and intervenes more quickly to put them on a pathway to get them fit for surgery. It is in nobody's interests for patients to be in the situation that the Member described in his question. It doesn't work for the patient, it doesn't work for the NHS, it doesn't work for other patients who might be readier for that surgery. What we also know, from the patient's point of view, is that patients who go forward to surgery in that context take longer to recover, spend more time in hospital, and the outcomes are less good. So, it's a really important priority for us to get right.

What he will know from the announcement I made a number of weeks ago is that the system will identify patients who are not yet ready for surgery and then put them on that pathway to improve their health, whatever that may be, and it can be a range of things. He will also know that we now have in place a single point of contact arrangement for patients waiting for surgery. So, they have somebody they can speak to about how they can get ready, how they can be fit, how the additional needs that they may have can be met, before they are ready for that intervention, that treatment.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you. I do agree it doesn't work for patients, Cabinet Secretary, as you said, because too many people are waiting too long. But I hope you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary—. My Welsh Conservative colleagues and I all agree with an NHS that is free at point of delivery, which supports patients right the way across the country, no matter what their circumstances and how they access the system. I have been alarmed by Reform UK's version of moving our NHS to a French-based insurance system, actually asking people, the most vulnerable people in our society, to pay for their healthcare, or if they've got pre-existing conditions, not getting health insurance at all, allowing those people to suffer and die on waiting lists just because it doesn't fit a certain political narrative of Reform. So, I hope you'll agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that there are no plans—. I know my party have no plans to move to this model, and I'd hope that the Welsh Government also has no plans to move to this model, because I do not want to see our NHS being sold on the stock market just to further Nigel Farage's own political career.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Welsh Labour Government believes in a public NHS, free at the point of need, available to provide care when it's needed, not whether people can afford to pay for it. That has been our continuing position; it will remain our position. Actually, I think what we see Reform proposing is in fact the end of the NHS. I don't believe for a second that Nigel Farage supports anything that is French based. In fact, what we'll have is a situation where premiums are unaffordable, conditions are uninsured, the end of free prescriptions, the end of the NHS, where health is based on wealth—a return to the 1930s. What this Government wants to see is to look forward to the 2030s, with an NHS fit for the future, providing the care that we all need.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Some weeks ago, you said in response to a question from my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths that there are, and I quote,

'times when the NHS faces exceptional pressure,'

and during these times,

'local escalation measures are enacted.'

But in the first quarter of 2025, every emergency department in Wales reported patients receiving care in unsafe and inappropriate places, with almost half waiting for an internal bed, according to the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. The anecdotal evidence, as is clear in the report 'Ending corridor care in Wales', from the Royal College of Nursing Wales, states the same thing.

Despite all this, the Welsh Government doesn't gather or publish official figures on care in inappropriate places. So, what assurance do you have as Cabinet Secretary that corridor care is the exception rather than a daily practice? How do you know that it's an exception when no data is gathered? And will you listen to the RCN and the British Medical Association, who are calling on the Welsh Government to start recording and reporting openly on corridor care in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, elements of this information is already being gathered. One of the challenges we've discussed with the RCN and the BMA—and I'm meeting with them very soon again—is the definition of what is being discussed. But it's clear to me that there's too much of this happening. It doesn't happen—. It doesn't—. The Member is right to say that this should be happening as an exception. But it is clearly happening more often than that, and that is not acceptable. What we have seen over the past few months is progress being made in terms of the ability to transfer patients from ambulances to emergency treatment rooms more swiftly than has happened in the past, which suggests to me that there is progress being made in the system, slowly. But it isn't swift enough. I don't want to see this happening at all, but the pressure on our health service at the moment does mean that it is happening more often than it should be. I will be meeting with the RCN and the BMA in the coming weeks to discuss the deliberate steps that we can take in that regard.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response. You will know, Cabinet Secretary, that the RCN and the BMA have set up a petition, and in it they insist that the Welsh Government, and I quote again, make receiving care in a chair for more than 24 hours a 'never event'. The Welsh Government itself says that every never event

'has the potential to cause serious patient harm or death'

but that does not have to have happened for it to be categorised as such, you say.

Does the Cabinet Secretary therefore believe that keeping a patient in a chair for 24 hours is not a serious incident that can cause real harm? If never events, according to the Welsh Government, require a full inquiry and measures to be taken immediately and lessons to be shared, why isn't the same done in terms of care in a chair? Doesn't it make sense that having this as a never event ensures the safety of patients and forces the service to learn from mistakes in order to prevent the same mistakes from happening again in future?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

This question has a similar response. The definition of a 'never event' is more complex than the example that the Member gives. But that is not tantamount to saying that it is acceptable that people receive treatment in that kind of circumstance. It's not acceptable. So, the two definitions are working towards different purposes. But I want to be clear with the Member: I'm not for a second saying that we don't need to tackle this; of course we do need to do this. There is a requirement for every health board to do this. We are seeing successes and progress in the system, as I say, but it's not swift enough.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response. The six goals for timely and emergency care of the Welsh Government describe the urgent and long-term priorities for emergency care as, and I quote, ensuring that patients receive the:

'Right care, right place, first time'.

It's clear to me that you've lost the confidence of the RCN and the BMA in terms of corridor care. To regain that confidence, would you agree to chair meetings on the six goals for emergency care personally, until sufficient progress has been made to put an end to corridor care in Wales?

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's possible to amend the list of never events, and that has happened before. As you've mentioned, it depends on the definition, and you can make that definition. To ensure that lessons are learned when things do go wrong, and in order to reduce the risk when it happens again, would the Welsh Government agree to add 'patient in a chair for 24 hours' to the list of never events?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I've responded to that question already. I don't feel that any level of the health service feels that I don't take enough of a personal interest in these matters. I had a meeting yesterday that dealt with preparations for winter pressures, but also the pressures in emergency rooms and on the ambulance service. I have another meeting next week on the same topic. So, I'm certain that the system understands how much of a priority this is for the Government, and for every health board too. We are seeing progress, as I said, but we need to see that more swiftly than at present.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government support for young carers? OQ63007

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Young carers are a priority. While we must do all that we can to ensure their care of family members is recognised and valued, we must also ensure that this is not to the detriment of their education or any other aspect of their lives.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I've seen a young carer in my family who does a fantastic job. Last week, I attended a panel event in the Pierhead organised by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and young carers were present in the audience. Some of the audience members spoke of the challenges they face as young carers and how the support and respite they receive is crucial to their own health and well-being. There's the Sparrows ALN Group in Caerphilly, which I've mentioned many times, Valleys Daffodils in Caerphilly as well—absolutely instrumental to young carers, as well as the parents of disabled children. There's a patchwork of formal and informal support networks across Wales that exist to support young carers like that, and there are many others, and local authorities have both an important role in fostering and encouraging them, but also identifying where they are. So, what more can we do to ensure local authorities contact individual young carers directly to make them aware of these support networks, whether they're private, public or voluntary, and make sure that they know that they're available to them in their locality?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank Hefin for that supplementary question, which is really important? Because any of us that have had any contact with unpaid carers, whether they are young carers or adult unpaid carers, will know that there are too many that are struggling to receive the support that they need. We know that there is a statutory obligation for local authorities to undertake carers' assessments, and that is not happening in the most consistent way right the way across the country. And we've identified that through a piece of research that we commissioned towards the end of last year, actually, through the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, which was a kind of rapid review of what support was available for unpaid carers. And as a direct result of some of the recommendations that came out of that review, I've now established a work stream under my ministerial advisory group for unpaid carers, which is looking very specifically at that and how we can improve both the consistency and the provision for unpaid carers, because there is a lot of support out there already. You've already identified some of the things that we've got out there, I should say, both formal and informal.

I've talked in this Chamber many times about the direct support that Welsh Government is putting in over and above what are the statutory requirements of local authorities—so, the short breaks scheme, the carers support scheme. We put on a young carers festival every year, we've got the young carers ID scheme for young people, helping them at school, and we did run a very specific social media campaign that was aimed at young carers in particular, and that finished towards the end of June this year. But it was a social media campaign directed at young carers themselves, because sometimes, and this is not just true of young carers, but this is true of a lot of unpaid carers, they don't identify themselves as being unpaid carers. They don't realise that that's what they are. So, that social media campaign was about helping them to understand that that is what they are, and that there is support out there for them, if they were to look for it. And I'm hoping that the work that we're going to be doing now, this workstream we're going to be doing now, in my ministerial advisory group, will report back to me in the autumn with some very specific recommendations about how we can improve that access and support.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Minister. I was at the same event with Hefin, and I, James Evans and Sioned Williams were on the panel, hearing about the experiences of young carers. There are around 30,000 young carers here in Wales, and, actually, in the gallery there is a young person here called Cathy, who has a young carer herself, so is looked after by somebody who is young. One of the issues that Cathy was talking to me about is the young carers ID card, and neither she nor her carer were aware of the young persons ID card. So, we see straight away an inconsistency in terms of the roll-out, the awareness, the promotion of the young carers ID cards, which are essential in order to ensure that they access services and other provisions for them. One of the barriers is that we have it rolled out as the responsibility of local authorities. So, I'd like to ask you whether you would consider, and perhaps your group might consider, hearing from young people like Cathy and the person who looks after her, to look at how the access to a young carers ID card could be better. But one of the issues is about bringing it into the Welsh Government, so that, actually, there is no inconsistency and that it's actually fairer. The other issue that was raised was about protected characteristics for our young carers. That is key in order to allow them to get access to the services and not be discriminated against, and to have that extra foot in the door. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Well, can I thank you, Jane, for that supplementary? And I know how passionate you are about unpaid carers, whether they're young carers or adult unpaid carers, as are many people who have asked me questions on this subject across the Chamber. You're absolutely right: the young carers ID card, if used consistently and effectively and comprehensively, can be life-changing for a young carer, to not have to explain themselves everywhere they go, and just have the ability to show a card or a lanyard—I think they do it in different ways in different authorities; some have an app on their phone and so on. The school will understand and that helps in terms of the school being able to manage their learning experience, how they manage their homework and all sorts of things. It helps them with access to a GP, to pharmacies—you know all these things, Jane.

So, what you're asking is not dissimilar to Hefin's question, which is really about the consistency of approach in ensuring that the support that is out there gets to the people who need it. So, I'm very happy for that to be fed in to the ministerial advisory group workstream on this, because we're looking at all the aspects of support for unpaid carers. There are unpaid carers and unpaid young carers themselves on the ministerial group, so I would anticipate that they would also feed that personal experience in, but I'm happy to hear from anybody who wants to make some direct representation to me. In fact, I was in a school in your constituency talking to young carers, Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhymni, just a few months back. And having that 1:1 conversation with a young carer about their personal experiences is really something that I think everybody should do, because that's when it really hits home.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Young carers often face long-term disadvantages affecting their health and social well-being, and it is therefore vital that their health and well-being are assessed and routinely reassessed by either social workers, care workers or occupational therapists in a timely fashion. As you may be aware, Stats Wales data for 2023-24 shows that, of the 2,366 contacts made by or on behalf of young carers to statutory social services across Wales, only 1,677 received advice or assistance in the same time period. In Cardiff, just 28 per cent received support in the same year; in Merthyr, 23 per cent and in Caerphilly, 22 per cent. Minister, I'm sure you'll agree that long waiting times for assessment and support can be distressing. Therefore, do you agree with me that, in order to reduce these, there should be a report on waiting times for young carers from when they're first identified to when their carers' needs assessment has been carried out? And what appropriate time targets for providing needs assessments should also be set out? Thank you.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank Joel James for those points? And they're very, very important and valid points. Again, it is a consistent theme that we've heard this afternoon, both from Hefin David and from Jane Dodds. It's about making sure that people who need the support, that unpaid carers who need the support, get that support and get that support in a timely fashion. So, I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, Joel. I would reiterate what I've already said. I do have a ministerial advisory workstream, it's looking at all of this, the support available to unpaid carers and how that can be delivered in a more timely and consistent way, and I'm more than happy for your comments and suggestions to be fed into that work as well. Thank you.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs about ensuring that drinking water supplies do not pose a danger to human health? OQ62991

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I meet regularly with the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to discuss a range of issues, including those affecting water across Wales. I’m pleased that Wales maintains excellent drinking water quality, with 99.96 per cent compliance with standards.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that reply, Cabinet Secretary. I'm sure that you're aware of the situation in the north of France, where public health officials have taken the extreme step of banning people from drinking tap water because of the dangers to human health. This is not due to some bacterial contamination or a leak of toxic chemicals; it is down to the fact that the groundwater and aquifers are full of forever chemicals. The levels detected in the drinking water are 20 times higher than what is considered safe. France and many other European countries are about to impose a strict 0.1 µg per litre limit. Here in the UK we have no statutory limit at all, just guidance. As investigations by Watershed have also found, sewage slurry spread on farmlands across Wales, as well as England and Scotland, contained higher levels of per-and poly fluoroalkyl substances, which then enters our watercourses. Cabinet Secretary, given the danger these chemicals pose to human health, will you work with the UK Government to ensure that we have strict limits on levels in our water supplies and work towards a ban on PFAS, as we have done with microplastics? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Altaf Hussain for that question. He will know that the Drinking Water Inspectorate is the regulator that is responsible for ensuring drinking water quality across Wales and, if standards are breached, then the DWI has legal powers to investigate, take enforcement action, including against water companies, as I'm sure he'll know. We were able to welcome the annual report from the DWI last year. It recognised the consistently excellent quality of drinking water in Wales. We're awaiting their latest annual report in the coming weeks, which will cover the 2024 calendar year. He will probably be aware of some of the recommendations and requirements in that last report in relation to the improvement of infrastructure by water companies, and we expect those measures to be complied with.

I know the Deputy First Minister has met recently with water companies in relation to that. He may have noted that, in that report, the chief inspector for drinking water recommended updating Wales's drinking water regulatory standards, based, as you would expect, on the most recent scientific evidence and international guidance and experience. Welsh Government officials are considering those recommendations carefully at the moment. It's quite a complex area, as I think his question was an illustration, and that will require, in the way that he was suggesting, working with the UK Government on that in a closely co-ordinated way.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on community hospital provision in North Wales? OQ63006

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Excuse me.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Community hospitals are an essential element of the health care model needed to deliver high-quality, sustainable care across north Wales. Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board recently launched a formal review of services at Penley and Tywyn community hospitals to ensure that these hospitals meet local need.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, they have indeed, and I wanted to ask you about that, because whilst we have seen improvement in some places, I'll grant you that, we have, of course, over a longer term, seen a steady decline in the number of community hospital beds in my region of North Wales. Denbigh, recently, was halved, and we've lost community hospitals altogether in Flint, Llangollen, Prestatyn and elsewhere. You mentioned Penley hospital there—that was, of course, closed suddenly on Christmas Eve last year. We've been told it's a temporary closure, but a public consultation has now been launched on its future and it has, understandably, raised a number of concerns locally. So, I was going to ask you to give us an assurance here today that Penley hospital will not be closed permanently, and, hopefully, that you could tell us what action the Welsh Government is therefore taking to reverse this long-term trend, in terms of decline in community hospital bed provision across my region.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm grateful to the Member for acknowledging the positive developments in community provision at the start of his question. He will know that, in his region, new technology is being trialled in Dolgellau and Barmouth community hospital, allowing people to access urgent medication out of hours; there's the reopening of the minor injuries unit at Dolgellau and Barmouth again, and the minor injuries unit at Tywyn Hospital. I'm pleased to say that, in June, the health board's Well North Wales programme received national recognition in the Journal of Public Health for its innovative work in co-producing health and well-being services with communities in high-needs areas, and that co-production, I think, is a really important part of how we address some of the pressures that the Member referred to in his question.

I can give him the assurance that I meet regularly with the chair of the health board. I have discussed with him that the board must engage with the community to develop a coherent long-term plan for the future of service provision in Penley and also in Tywyn, and he also shares that view. As he said, the board has agreed to launch a public consultation to support this work, and I know that no decisions have been made in relation to either of these sites, and that the December board will be considering those options.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I have long been a champion of Llandudno hospital. It was a pledge and a promise I made to the late Sir Wyn Roberts, who actually, whilst he was in Parliament, made a lot of the infrastructure that we see there today. But it's something I've also pledged to my constituents, because it just is an amazing hospital. I've pestered, I've gone on street protests, to keep and safeguard this hospital. Now, look at Ysbyty Gwynedd, Glan Clwyd and Wrexham Maelor. When you look at their waiting times for A&E, these are the figures stated, but I can tell you that sometimes it's a lot worse than this: only 56.8 per cent were seen during the four-hour target in Gwynedd, 38 per cent in Wrexham, 38 per cent—nearly—in Glan Clwyd. The progress of patients through the emergency department is being hampered by other delays in the hospitals. I know people waiting two days on a chair sometimes, on corridor care. The pressure could be reduced through transferring some patients to wards in community hospitals, expanding services at minor injuries units, such as Holyhead, Porthmadog and Llandudno. The latter, for example, saw 95 per cent within the four-hour target. Will you look again at the marvellous and integral part these community hospitals play? Will you review their provision? And let's see fewer delays and more action, more patients going through the hospital process by integrating the MIU provision better. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member will have welcomed the response I gave to Llyr Gruffydd in relation to the reopening of minor injuries units and the developments in community provision across the health board area, which I think shows good progress, but I think, and the health board also thinks, that more needs to be done. I'm particularly struck by her support for Llandudno hospital. I was able to be there only a few weeks ago to see the exciting construction of a new orthopaedic centre there, which we anticipate will open later this year and will make a significant difference in relation to relieving pressure on those people waiting for their hips, their knees and their shoulders to be done. That's going well, and I'm sure she'll welcome that facility when it opens later this year.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don't disagree at all with Janet Finch-Saunders. I think community hospitals do provide excellent services, if you look at the minor injuries services they provide, and also meeting the needs of an ageing population and many other things as well.

You did mention in your earlier answer that you have regular discussions with Betsi Cadwaladr health board, and you outlined some of the excellent work being done across north Wales community hospitals in your original answer to Llyr Huws Gruffydd. I think it's really important that those discussions do include plans for the health board to extend provision, particularly around north-east Wales. Many people don't wait as long as Janet Finch-Saunders said at the Wrexham Maelor Hospital, but I do think some additional services in the community would take a lot of the pressure off.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I agree with the Member in relation to that point, certainly. What we know is that the way we can make sure people have access to secondary care when they need it is to make sure that they don't have to go to hospital unless they absolutely need to, and having those facilities distributed differently in community settings is an absolutely critical part of that. What I've been encouraged by, in my discussions with the chair of the health board, is the recognition on the part of the board that they need to engage the public fully in how services can be offered differently in that way. There are difficult choices and conversations that are necessarily part of that, but I think that commitment to working with the public, with communities, on how services can be adapted to better provide more resilient services for the public is really encouraging. And as I mentioned in my first answer, there has been some external recognition for the good co-production work that the board is already doing in some of that work.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

6. How does the Welsh Government plan the provision of mental health services? OQ62993

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our long-term plans for mental health and well-being have been set out in the recently published 10-year strategy and delivery plan. The NHS Wales planning framework for 2025-28 outlines the high-level ambition for our health and care system, including in mental health, and our key expectations in delivery.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

While the Welsh Government has extended independent mental health advocates to all in-patients receiving mental health care, a legal loophole means that these services are not classed as regulated services under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. As a result, independent mental health advocates are not legally required to report safeguarding concerns, even in cases of abuse, neglect or serious risk. Given that these advocates are often the only trusted contact for vulnerable patients, this lack of a duty undermines safeguarding law, public confidence in advocacy and the safety of those most at risk. There are also concerns about conflicts of interest as services are commissioned by the same bodies they may need to challenge.

What action, if any, will the Welsh Government therefore take to close this loophole by regulating mental health advocacy services, introducing a legal safeguarding duty for independent mental health advocates, and reforming commissioning arrangements to ensure that advocates can act independently and without fear of reprisal, thereby upholding Wales's commitment to rights-based, trauma-informed mental health care?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm grateful to the Member for raising that important question. I will commit to discussing that very point with my officials and I will write to the Member and let him know what is currently under way and what more we feel we can do.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

7. How is the Welsh Government supporting people affected by pregnancy and baby loss? OQ63001

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Standards for bereavement care, which underpin the national bereavement care pathway for pregnancy and baby loss, have been developed in consultation with parents and healthcare professionals, and they will be published shortly. The national clinical network for maternity and neonatal services will then oversee the implementation of the pathway in NHS Wales.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for that response.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

First of all, I'd like to welcome the announcement by the UK Government that the Employment Rights Bill is going to be amended to give parents the legal right to take time off from work to grieve if they experience pregnancy loss at any stage of the pregnancy, instead of just after 24 weeks of pregnancy, as it is at the moment. So, I think that this is very welcome news. I also welcome the national bereavement care pathway that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned and the national framework for the delivery of bereavement care and its vision for a compassionate Wales where everyone has equitable access to high-quality bereavement care.

However, the pregnancy and baby loss charity Sands says that these pathways do require a dedicated programme of development and implementation to be embedded in all healthcare settings, and this obviously includes providing training, supporting healthcare staff, developing toolkits, evaluation and above all, as the Cabinet Secretary has already said, including the voice of bereaved parents in the ongoing development of the pathways. So, could the Cabinet Secretary explain how the Welsh Government will ensure that the pathways are properly implemented across all health boards, following the funding for the Sands-specific support for the Wales maternity and neonatal network expiring in September?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Sands is a crucial partner to the work that the Welsh Government, through NHS Wales Performance and Improvement and the broader NHS, is doing in this space, and it's with their support that the five pathways are currently being produced in the way that the Member described. Those are being developed at the moment. I know that the networks within NHS performance and improvement are working with stakeholders, again including Sands, on how those can be delivered and rolled out. Sands has, as the Member said, been provided with funding as part of this commission to engage with families, which is absolutely critical in this work, and to provide training for staff to ensure sustainable implementation. The network is working with Sands to monitor progress and assess further support needs to make sure that we ensure that these pathways are successfully delivered, and I know that my colleague Sarah Murphy intends to make a statement shortly in relation to that.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally question 8, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

8. What mitigation measures will the Welsh Government put in place to support residents in mid Wales if the Welshpool air ambulance base closes as planned in 2026? OQ62988

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The court recently upheld the joint commissioning committee's decision in respect of the relocation of the air ambulance bases. We are aware that an application to appeal the court’s decision on 19 June has now been filed, so as this remains active litigation, it's not appropriate for Welsh Ministers to comment specifically at this stage.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer. Of course, people in mid Wales, as you can imagine, were deeply disappointed by the decision, following that judicial review outcome, to close Welshpool and Caernarfon bases on a permanent basis. As you've said, health Secretary, there is an appeal to ask for permission to challenge that decision. But as part of the original proposal to close these bases, so-called mitigation measures were announced. These included rapid response vehicles to be located in areas around mid Wales, these vehicles having additional equipment on them. In my view, that is completely unsatisfactory mitigation, no substitution for a full air ambulance service, but this is the proposal that was put on the table. So far, there's been no further information about this proposal. The JCC, the body that was supposed to make the decision, were supposed to have delivered plans by the end of September last year. They haven't happened. There have been no costings and no further operation. Cabinet Secretary, if you're not prepared to step in and ensure that these two important bases in Welshpool and Caernarfon are not closed, can you at least provide an update on the proposed rapid response vehicles?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member will appreciate, of course, that this is an operational decision for the JCC, not a decision for Ministers to make themselves, and that's for very good reason. I know that the JCC intended to provide a detailed response once it had had the opportunity to look at the judgment fully and review the implications of that. Obviously, in light of the appeal being lodged, I assume that may impact the timing of comments from the JCC in relation to that, and I'm sure that the points that the Member has made in the question will be the sorts of things that the JCC will comment on.

I would just say that although he mentioned the closure of two locations, of course there is a proposal for there to be a base in north Wales. As I understand it, one of the current challenges in the system is that a service isn't capable of being provided at night, for example. So there are a range of potential improvements that the plan would be able to make. I think it is important to see that rounded proposal when we discuss and debate these questions. But I think in terms of being drawn into the detail of that, for the reasons I've given, I think that would be premature and inappropriate for us at this point.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 is the topical questions. Only one topical question has been selected today, and that will be asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the announcement of 220 redundancies at the Dow chemicals plant in Barry? TQ1362

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government continues to work closely with the company and will support the affected employees. We have a proven partnership approach and support network including the Department for Work and Pensions, Careers Wales and the local authority employability team that provides advice and guidance and retraining packages through ReAct+.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. This is deeply disappointing news. This is obviously part of a wider announcement that Dow have made across their operations across the globe, and 800 jobs are to be lost in Germany as well, but that doesn't soften the blow of the 220 redundancies that have been announced on a plant that—if you enter the town from the eastern side—dominates the landscape and has been part and parcel of the fabric of Barry since the 1930s.

Can you give some assurance today that in the time that these announcements were first made, and to the announcement that was made yesterday, the Welsh Government engagement with the owners of Dow has given you confidence that the viability of the entire plant is secure, and that they are committed to the remaining jobs on the site, and ultimately, the 220 jobs that are going to be lost will receive the full support of retraining and any other support that the Welsh Government normally deploys in these occasions when jobs are lost? Because obviously, these jobs aren't being lost straight away, thankfully; it is going to be a period of two to three years, and so it is a long-term commitment that the Welsh Government needs to make to make sure that each and every one of the 220 affected knows that there is that help and support there.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’m very grateful for the chance to talk about this in the Chamber this afternoon. Clearly, this news is going to be really worrying for the workforce in Barry and also for their families and the wider community. The Member is absolutely right that the company has been very clear that this has been in response to global economic factors, but that is no comfort at all, of course, if you’re one of the members of the workforce affected.

I can confirm that the Welsh Government, through officials, has been in contact with the company for some time, and we have been working closely with them. I am pleased that the result, following the group consultation, has been that the number of affected staff has decreased. That’s partly down to the creation of a new engineering hub at the Barry site to support future operations, and I think that does give some confidence to the intentions for the future. So, I think that that is something that we can welcome, clearly, in a really difficult situation.

I’m also really pleased that Dow has said that it’s committed to supporting its employees and they’ll work with the consultation team on how they can continue to provide support to those who are seeking onward employment. Measures such as a £5,000 training allowance for all impacted employees or outplacement support to assist with career transitions are very much welcomed. And, of course, the Welsh Government, as always, stands ready to assist in any way we can.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I'm pleased, Cabinet Secretary, to hear that the Government has been working closely with Dow. Clearly, this is a significant blow and I am thinking of those employees and their families at this time. This is something that we are hearing far too often at the moment—hundreds of jobs being lost, and jobs that are very much needed within the local economy. In terms of the discussions you've had, have you started to discuss the use of the site after 2029, to see whether there is hope of looking at alternative options there on the site? Also, looking at the new industrial strategy for Wales, do you think that we need this now? Because we are seeing this as a regular story, and in areas such as Barry, they will want to know that there is hope that there is the possibility that if they do retrain, there will be posts available for them to remain in Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for raising that. Again, this is a really difficult time for all of those workers who are affected. I think the fact that there is time for decisions to be made is really important, and those individual discussions that the business will now be having with employees will be really important as well. I think that we need to make sure that we maintain the skills that have been developed at the site. Certainly, looking towards the industrial strategy and the areas of growth, we need to be ensuring that people who do have skills are able to use those skills in different fields, but then are also able to reskill into other fields if necessary. We do have a really strong track record in terms of working with individuals who are affected by situations such as this with that proven partnership approach including the DWP, Careers Wales and the local authority employability team. We'll be making sure that all of that support is available as normal. As I say, we have been in touch with the company for some time, including a conversation between the First Minister and the UK president.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. The first statement this afternoon is from Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

On 4 July 1952, tragedy struck at the Point of Ayr colliery, as six men were killed during the sinking of the No. 3 shaft. On that fateful day, the ground was soft so compressed air was pumped down the shaft to support the side walls. However, it seeped through the shaft walls and could be seen bubbling up in the dock area at high tide. To counter this, pressure was increased steadily but eventually the airlock on the top of the shaft could no longer cope with the pressure and it blew off. This caused the shaft to flood and the walls collapsed onto the men working below. Five men died underground. The inquest reported death by drowning with no means of escape. Another man died on the surface when the airlock blew off.

The 1952 tragedy was the last serious accident at the colliery and had a significant impact on the surrounding community, many of whom worked at the Point of Ayr. Seventy-three years to the day, last Friday, the community once again came together at the Ffynnongroyw mining memorial, as a new panel was unveiled to commemorate the six men who lost their lives: James Nicholas Thompson, 43, Prestatyn; Samuel Dempster, 37, Prestatyn; Percy Maisey, 33, Ffynnongroyw; Edward James Hill, 31, Deptford; Goronwy Jones, 30, Holywell; Patrick Joseph McPartland, 28, Dyserth. Retired members from the Point of Ayr were joined by comrades from other collieries, alongside community representatives and relatives, including the daughters of one of the men who died. There is now, rightly, public recognition and a platform for reflection after over seven decades.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

We will remember them.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

On 29 June, we had the sad news that the world-famous opera singer and tenor Stuart Burrows has left us at the age of 92. It is a privilege today to pay tribute to him and to celebrate his extraordinary career.

Stuart was born in Cilfynydd, near Pontypridd. As a child, he was given a taste of performing when he sang soprano solos, at that time, at the local Methodist chapel. He could even be heard singing out of this bedroom window, as his neighbours would attest. Although he shone on the rugby field as a youngster, attracting an offer from Leeds Rugby League Club, he went on to study at Trinity College Carmarthen, pursuing a career as a teacher before joining Welsh National Opera in 1963.

In 1965, his big break came, when he was chosen by Stravinsky himself to perform the main role in Oedipus Rex in Athens. He then went on to perform on the most prestigious stages worldwide, including La Scala, the Met and the Royal Opera House. By the 1970s and 1980s, he was starring in his own series, Stuart Burrows Sings, for the BBC. Also in the 1980s, he recorded an album, Favourite Songs of Wales, giving Wales and the Welsh language an international platform.

Despite all of the touring, Wales was his lifelong home, and he was president of a number of charitable organisations across south Wales, also raising funds on their behalf. So, thank you to Stuart for his contribution to the arts here in Wales and beyond, and for sharing his glorious voice with the world. Our thoughts are with his family at this difficult time.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Wales's women play in their first ever major international tournament in football at the Euros in Switzerland. It marks a success story in the growth and success of women's football in Wales—still the fastest growing part of the sport. There is still much, much more to do, but women's sport has grown over the last two decades in particular, and will continue to grow—a marked contrast to my time when I was my son's age 40 years ago.

Our greatest football player was born in 1987. At that time, women's sport, beyond tennis, gymnastics, athletics and whatever was covered in the Olympics, was not a main feature on our tv schedules. There simply were not the same role models that our team of today provides.

That makes the journey and the success of Jess Fishlock even more remarkable. She's helped to win five titles in five different countries—more than five titles, actually—and has been recognised as the MVP in the United States, the biggest professional women's football league in the world. A man with similar achievements would be worth millions, and he would have been a household name for many years.

She is much more than a footballer, of course. She's a consistent advocate for equality and tolerance. She is, unsurprisingly, very proud to be Welsh. She is an outstanding ambassador for Wales, well beyond the world of sport.

Jess Fishlock is, apparently, the first woman footballer in Europe to feature in a full-pitch mural, as the Minister acknowledged today. That mural is in Splott park, in my constituency. Jess isn't just from Cardiff. Even more importantly, she's from Llanrumney, a proud community that I am privileged to serve.

I thank Jess and her teammates for their success in reaching the Euros and all that they have done, and will do, to inspire a future generation of women and girls. I hope that this Senedd will choose to recognise their achievement and welcome them here in the future after the Euros have finished.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We wish them all well at this evening's game.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

There is excitement on Anglesey this weekend, as 84 athletes and 21 coaches start the 16-hour journey to Orkney to compete in the twentieth Island Games. The games, held every two years, welcome competitors from islands across Europe and beyond, and it's always exciting to see our athletes competing in a wide range of sports, representing Anglesey. Back in Guernsey in 2023, the Anglesey team had their most successful games ever, winning 18 medals, but I know full well that this year's team will be determined to break that record once again and come home with an even bigger haul of medals.

I will take this opportunity to congratulate Martin Jones and Henley Moffatt specifically for being chosen to carry the flag in the opening ceremony on Saturday, as well as carrying the ceremonial water—water from Anglesey that will be symbolically mixed with water from the other islands; it's our version of the Olympic flame.

To each and every one of the competitors, many congratulations on your selection to represent the mother isle in Orkney, and I thank all of the coaches, organisers and volunteers for their work behind the scenes. And now, with the hard yards done on the training ground and all of the equipment having been packed safely, all that's left to say is: best of luck to the Anglesey team. Do your best and enjoy yourselves. Anglesey is proud of each and every one of you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, all.

5. Motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Commission's Official Languages Scheme for 2024-25

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is a motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Commission's official languages scheme for 2024-25. And I call on Adam Price to move the motion.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. It gives me great pleasure to present the Senedd Commission's annual report on its official languages scheme for the year 2024-25 to the Senedd today. Members of the Senedd will be aware that the Senedd Commission is required, in accordance with the National Assembly for Wales (Official Languages) Act 2012, to table an annual report on its work to provide bilingual services, including any complaints or cases where the scheme has been contravened. This will be the final time that we consider the Senedd Commission's work in relation to the official languages Act in this Senedd term.

In addition to the usual work, this has been a year of strategic preparations for the seventh Senedd. In last year's debate on our annual report, I referred to the fact that I would be discussing matters involving the Welsh language, with a view to our work in the short term, the medium term and the long term in looking towards the next Senedd, with my fellow Commissioners soon after the debate was held. Indeed, that discussion was of assistance to the official languages team in planning its work, in preparation for the seventh Senedd, and in looking at any steps that could be taken as a result.

One of the most important commitments I gave as part of that preparatory work was to consider the legal framework for official languages in the next Senedd. That commitment continues, and we will be initiating the process by consulting with Members of the Senedd soon after recess, to seek their views, in a more formal and structured manner than usual as we transition from one Senedd to the next, on the official languages scheme itself, on the support available to Members and their staff and also on the legal framework, as I mentioned, that underpins the current arrangements.

There is an opportunity here for us to look back at what has been achieved since the official languages Act was passed and to look towards the future by challenging ourselves to build on our reputation as a truly bilingual organisation, and to play a vital and unique part as the primary democratic body for the people of Wales in the cross-party effort to plan a future for the Welsh language.

I mentioned last year, too, the work of assessing capacity and skills levels across Senedd Commission staff, and I also mentioned the importance of undertaking a survey to this end among Members, their support staff and their groups. We decided to incorporate this work in the induction process for the seventh Senedd, and I'm pleased to confirm that we will be gathering meaningful information about language skills, chosen language, and ways of working in terms of the language, in oral or written communication. This will enable us to target services and resources better, ensuring that Members can work in a way that is tailored to them and is appropriate for them as individuals. And on a more holistic level, it will mean that we can plan intentionally and proactively to achieve the aim of making Welsh a natural operational language in the seventh Senedd and to measure the impact of our interventions.

On that point, I would like to refer briefly to the work that will be done as part of the chairs’ forum review of the effectiveness of the committee system in the sixth Senedd. The use of the Welsh language, be it in terms of the support available, or in proceedings themselves, will be an intrinsic part of the review. The recommendations will help to form the basis for the establishment of the seventh Senedd’s committees. This work will also build on the developments over the past year to encourage committee members, and all of those who contribute to committee work, to feel more confident in using Welsh, including producing a new script for committee Chairs to encourage contributions in Welsh.

On that point, I would like to welcome any comments by fellow Members.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

May I thank Adam Price for opening the debate today? I just realised as you were speaking, Adam, that we’re wearing the same thing today, which seems to be a uniform for those participating in this debate tday. So, we’re certainly on brand. [Laughter.]

It's important to start by saying how wonderful it is to hear people using the Welsh language across this Senedd in Cardiff Bay, and how important it is that people do use their Welsh language skills, and it doesn’t matter what level of Welsh they have. That is something to be welcomed, and it is something that constantly develops and grows, and that’s something to be warmly welcomed.

I did an interview yesterday with someone who was doing a piece of work on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill that we passed either last month or the month before. And one of the questions asked of me was, 'What’s the best thing about the Government and the Senedd’s policy in relation to the Welsh language?' And I said, clearly, that it’s the one thing that is non-political. Every party in the Senedd supports the Welsh language and wants to see its growth, and that crosses party lines. And that is hugely important and is something that we need to secure for the next Senedd too.

There are a few points in the report that I want to highlight, and I do want to thank everyone who was involved in developing this report. I apologise, I only have the English version before me, but there is a section on the skills strategy, where it says that

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

'We are already laying the groundwork for a comprehensive language audit across the organisation, to be carried out in the Seventh Senedd'.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

So, may I ask how that work is progressing, and what does it look like at the moment? And what will it look like in terms of not only the work that’s happening here in this building, but elsewhere too? Of course, we have staff working for the Senedd, and for us as Members, who aren’t always located here in Cardiff Bay, so what support will be available for those people working elsewhere?

And the second point that I wanted to raise was on the strategic preparation referred to in the report, in order to ensure that

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

'provision remains robust, effective, and appropriate for the future.'

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

So, in terms of knowing that there will be more Members in the next Senedd, what kind of level do you anticipate in future?

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

What do you anticipate?

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

What do you anticipate will in future, and how can we as Members provide support in order to ensure that, although the Senedd will grow, the level of support available, not only to Members, but for our staff, and for Commission staff too, can be maintained in relation to the Welsh language, and that we can develop the language on our estate in the Senedd and, hopefully, across Wales? Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I thank the Commission and Adam Price for their work on this. I think it’s very important that we do note this annual report. Certainly, there was one action point that we observed as a group following last year’s report, namely that we introduce more amendments and motions through the medium of Welsh, and I would hope that that is reflected in the progress that we've seen. I think that keeping a weather eye on that is important for every group. Clearly, we know that we've done that as a group at the moment—we don't receive that level of detail in the report.

One of the things that I would ask is whether the Commission has considered that we receive more information in terms of which parties are tabling through the medium of Welsh and so on. Because perhaps then we could perhaps work with groups to raise their confidence, and to demonstrate also some of the things that have been trialled in this Senedd, for example with Copilot, and how easy it is to produce material in both languages now, and how we use new technologies. I know that some people are perhaps nervous about tabling or presenting things in Welsh, or bilingually, because they're not confident in their written Welsh, although they contribute in Welsh. Is there a way we can then remind people of the resources that we have access to, including staff, for example Cysill and so on?

It's been interesting for us as a culture and Welsh language committee in terms of the range of resources available now to support people to use the Welsh language, but perhaps we're not all aware of all that's available. Perhaps one of the things to consider as you prepare your recommendations for the seventh Senedd is that that should be part of the training provided too: what are the range of resources available that enable more people to be able to table through the medium of Welsh. Because things like statements of opinion and topical questions are very low in number, and we see a decline in that. So, that's one suggestion maybe—something that we could put forward to facilitate that.

It's concerning, I believe, seeing the level of contributions in terms of committee proceedings, that there has been that decline. I see that it has stabilised over the past two years, but we had this discussion last year, didn't we, in terms of how we're going to remind committee Chairs, how we're going to be encouraging witnesses and so on to be using the Welsh language. I welcome what you said regarding the work that will happen with the Chairs' forum, but perhaps it is something that we could all reflect on for the remainder of this Senedd too.

Clearly, one of the major things that's happened this year, which isn't mentioned in this report, but is something that is, I think, of importance for this Senedd to note, is, of course, the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill, and the fact that that was drafted in Welsh in the first instance, and the first time, we believe, that all of the Stage 3 proceedings took place through the medium of Welsh. There are things to celebrate there as well in terms of how we can normalise the use of the Welsh language beyond our work, including in terms of the legislative process. So, what lessons will the Commission be taking from this Bill, and how will you therefore as a Commission be working with the Government to ensure that it is possible for more Bills to be worked on in Welsh, as the original language or the language of drafting, in future? It would be good to hear that it's not just when it's a Bill about the Welsh language that this happens, but that we normalise that across a range of legislation and all of the topics that we cover—that that is then possible in future.

So, there are some things to celebrate, but there is still work to do on others. Certainly, it does always prick the conscience of all of us that we can do more to normalise the use of the Welsh language. It's one thing to preach to organisations outwith the Senedd in terms of the Welsh language, but there are also things that we can do here, doubtless.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much for the report. I'm very pleased to hear about the audit that you mentioned—an opportunity at last to reassess and to align ourselves more appropriately in terms of changes in policy and direction in relation to the Welsh language. Much of that has happened, of course, since the establishment of the Senedd. But the risk in continuing with our own official languages Act is that we isolate ourselves entirely from the major change that standards have brought about in all other comparative bodies. It's almost as though we're too shy in the Senedd to commit entirely to work proactively and confidently in promoting the Welsh language. And, of course, there are some parliamentary authorities, such as the standards commissioner and the remuneration board, that operate without any legal duties placed upon them in relation to the Welsh language.

I sit on a board chaired by your fellow commissioner, Joyce Watson, on the creation of a family-friendly and inclusive Senedd as we look forward to the seventh Senedd. The intention is to publish a report by the end of this year. I think that the remit and the way that that work is to be undertaken does provide quite a good model for your own review, if I could be so bold as to make that suggestion. So, I would urge the Commission to act urgently to put the appropriate arrangements in place for this review, with a clear timetable and remit set out, so that we know exactly what to expect once that work is concluded.

I was also pleased to hear about the committee review being undertaken by the Chairs' forum, which will include looking at the use of the Welsh language. I have to say, as one who does use the Welsh language in this Chamber 100 per cent of the time, I'm not always entirely comfortable using the Welsh language on all occasions in a committee context. That is partially because of the technology. You see people putting on their headphones the moment I start talking, and then they remove them, and there are all sorts of rigmaroles, and you lose the flow of the conversation at times.

I'm sure there must be better technologies available now in a committee context, where the Welsh speaker doesn't feel that they are interrupting the flow of the conversation by contributing in Welsh. It makes us as Welsh speakers feel that we are disadvantaged in committee settings. I think it's better in the Chamber, and working virtually has also changed things. One doesn't think twice about using the Welsh language virtually, but we do need to look at committee activities. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I'm very grateful to my fellow Members for their comments and contributions. There will be some questions that I will have to respond to in writing. I'm speaking like a Minister now, aren't I—preparing, perhaps, hopefully. [Laughter.]

But, just to say at the outset, yes, Tom, I'm very pleased that we are wearing the same uniform, because it does make the point for us. We come from the same town, we speak the same language. As far as the Welsh language is concerned, I do think that we are one team, aren't we? We do want to see the same objectives. It's a good thing that that is something that is treasured by all of us as an organisation.

In terms of the holistic survey, which will again be in that spirit of one team, it's important that everyone who is part of the organisation—not just Commission staff, but support staff, group staff, Members, and so on—should all feel part of that bilingual ethos and this mission to ensure that both languages are given their due place. That's why we're going to have that truly comprehensive survey for the first time, and we're working on the detail of how that is going to work in practical terms now.

Tom raises a very important point. That is, we'll need resources for a larger Senedd in terms of bilingualism and the official languages scheme. Of course, as the wider planning work on capacity progresses, I'm sure that that will be an element that we will focus on.

Yes, it's important to note our successes. Having that Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill, which went through every legislative stage entirely through the medium of Welsh, was a historic thing, and, of course, we do want to see more of that. It's a matter, of course, for the Government to decide to draft through the medium of Welsh. I hope that more of that will happen. But the Commission then ensures that the resources are here so that we as a Senedd can contribute towards a process that will be undertaken entirely in Welsh.

With regard to the review of the legal framework, yes, we will take that suggestion on board about the template provided by that other review that you mentioned. I think that that is a very positive suggestion. It is important, 15 years or so after the National Assembly for Wales (Official Languages) Act 2012, that we review that to see whether it's fit for our needs now and in future.

There are many successes to celebrate, but, as Heledd said, there is a great deal still for us to do. We will look to provide the information on a group basis that you referred to, just so that we can all look to see where we are when it comes to the level of contributions in Welsh and so on, where that is useful for groups.

In terms of the use of Welsh language in the workplace, the official languages team staff were at the Welsh Language Commissioner's conference yesterday. And we, as an organisation, will be looking at using those ideas about how we can mainstream the Welsh language as an internal administrative language.

And as I conclude, and as we look to the future, I think it's appropriate that I do acknowledge the contribution and commitment of the late Dafydd Elis-Thomas to the development of the use of the Welsh language as a core part of the Senedd's life, in his role in the early days as the first Llywydd of the Senedd, but also his work before then, building that consensus that I referred to earlier across the parties that contributed not just to bilingualism in the Senedd, but also to its very existence. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report: Twenty-first report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6, a debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, 'Twenty first report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. And I call on the Chair of the committee, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. At the outset, I wish to declare that I am a member of Unite the Union, and have received financial sponsorship from them.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

The committee considered the report from the commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Eluned Morgan MS for failing to declare a relevant interest before taking part in proceedings in Plenary on 17 September 2024. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and the report sets out the committee's findings that, although the committee considers the Member to have breached the code of conduct, it does not consider that any further action is warranted.

The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reasons for its recommendation are set out in full in the committee's report. Whilst the commissioner found that there is nothing to suggest that the Member's registered interest had any influence on her contribution to the proceedings, the Standing Order requirement is that the relevant interest 'might reasonably be thought' to have influenced the Member's contribution, and not whether it had actually done so. Therefore, the committee would like to take this opportunity to remind all Members of the need to declare a relevant interest during proceedings to ensure transparency and openness. The interest should be relevant to the proceedings and be reasonably thought by others to have influenced the Member's contribution.

The complaint is timely, as the committee's ongoing inquiry into the registration and declaration of interests allows us to consider if any changes are necessary to ensure greater clarity around the rules. The committee noted the broadness of the current provision, and intends to consider whether the guidance for declarations could be amended to clarify situations when declarations are not required, or how they are recorded.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is regrettable that details of the committee's decision were shared with the media before the publication of the report. And I would like to make clear to anyone engaged in the standards process the need for confidentiality and the importance of it in maintaining the integrity of the process and, ultimately, this place. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendation. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have no other speakers. So, the proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

7. Debate on petition P-06-1525, 'Preserve the unique character of the Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal for the future generations of Wales'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7 today is the debate on petition P-06-1525, 'Preserve the unique character of the Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal for the future generations of Wales'. And I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce the debate today. A few weeks ago, on a Monday afternoon, the Petitions Committee travelled to Goytre Wharf between Pontypool and Abergavenny to meet some of the people behind today's petition. We heard the passion that people have for the canal, the problems they are experiencing this year, and we heard about the history that has flowed along the 55-mile route for more than 200 years. We saw the pathways and community facilities that have grown up along the route. We met some of the 20 people who live on the canal, people who want certainty that there will be enough water, so they can continue to live there. We met people who use it as a place to relax and escape from the stresses of day-to-day life, charities and organisations that use it for events. We met the local councillors keen to find a way to protect a vital community facility. We met the businesspeople who provide boat hiring and refreshments, who want certainty so that they can make the investments they need to develop their businesses in a competitive tourism market. We saw the rich biodiversity of a well-established ecosystem that is symbiotic with the river. We heard how it forms part of the Blaenavon world heritage site designation, and we met the Canal and River Trust Wales, who have been buying in millions of litres of water to ensure that the canal can flow and doesn't risk drying out, which would be catastrophic to the structure, making it unsafe.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

The petition debated today was submitted by Councillor Jan Butler. A second petition, submitted by Mark Flood on behalf of the Preserve and Protect the Mon and Brec Canal group, couldn't be accepted, as it covered the same ground. The petition text reads:

'Preserve the unique character of the Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal for the future generations of Wales. The Mon and Brec is one of the most picturesque and tranquil waterways in the UK winding through Bannau Brycheiniog National Park and through many rural and later urban communities as it makes its way from Brecon, through Talybont on Usk onwards through Goytre Wharf towards Newport. It provides the lifeblood to residents and communities in its path and attracts approximately 3 million visitors a year who make significant contribution to the local economy enabling these communities to thrive.

'Since its inception by Act of Parliament in 1792, the canal has depended on water abstracted from the River Usk and its tributaries. The Usk at Brecon provides 80 per cent of the water required. The water is not consumed as it is returned to the water once it has travelled along the route, and until recently, water abstraction did not require licences. For 200 years, it has been free of charge. The canal, managed by the Canal and River Trust Wales, a charity, is now required by Natural Resources Wales to obtain a licence and limits water abstractions. Without a daily supply of water through its locks, the canal will quickly become inoperable and closure will be inevitable. The consequences to the livelihood of our community's natural environment and local economy are unthinkable. An unmanaged canal can lead to catastrophic failure and destruction of properties in its path. Dŵr Cymru and NRW have indicated they will supply support water but at prohibitive costs, which the charity cannot afford.'

The petition has received a massive 13,847 signatures. While the canal is over 200 years old, the problems facing the canal are new. This is the first year when new regulations relating to water access have been applied, limiting the amount of water that can be abstracted from the River Usk to feed the canal. The licence from Natural Resources Wales allows a lower level of extraction than has historically been allowed. Within 10 days of these regulations coming into force earlier this year, there was a problem. Previously, it was managed by the Canal and River Trust. They have calculated that, if the licence water restrictions had been in force in the last 20 years, the canal would have only been open for four summers. For the two-month period from 4 April to 9 June, CRT needed to purchase 376 million litres at an estimated cost of £0.25 million, and this is not sustainable. It also means that money is not available for the vital maintenance that is required to ensure that the canal remains navigable and that the leaks get fixed.

The current agreement with Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water is for one year only. There is no certainty that anything similar could be done next year, creating an urgent need for a proper solution. The canal has a 200-year legacy and is a strategic piece of our national infrastructure. It is a tourist attraction, a flood defence mechanism, a biodiversity haven, an arm of the active travel network, a home to people and businesses. It cannot be allowed to fail. I hope today's debate will give all of us in the Chamber a chance to reflect the urgency of the situation and the need for all stakeholders, including the UK Government, who contribute to CRT's funding through the Department for Environment, Food a Rural Affairs, to work together to find a workable and sustainable solution, hopefully led by the Deputy First Minister. Thank you.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I too want to thank the petitioner for bringing forward this very important petition today. I want to be clear with Members and the Cabinet Secretary: the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal is on the brink of closure, and it's not because of drought, and it's not because there's no demand, but because the licensing decision is completely unworkable in practice.

For 225 years, this canal has taken water from the River Usk to operate. It supports nearly £30 million a year for the local economy, and it is the most visited attraction in the Brecon Beacons National Park. It is central to the lives of the communities all along its route, from my constituency all the way down to the constituency of my colleague Lynne Neagle. But now, because of the water extraction licence imposed by Natural Resources Wales, the canal's future is hanging by a thread.

And let's just break this down. The canal needs around 18 ML of water per day to function properly. The new NRW licence restricts the amount of water that can be taken, particularly in the summer when the canal is busiest, to levels below what is needed to operate. It doesn't account for the reality of evaporation, leakage or the historic patterns of use.

What has happened? Within two weeks of the licence coming into force in March, water levels on the canal dropped to nearly unusable levels. The Canal and River Trust, a charity already under pressure, has been forced to pay up to £40,000 a week to buy water from Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water just to keep the canal open. This is not a sustainable position. The Canal and River Trust have made it clear that it cannot afford to keep paying £1 million a year to buy water for the canal that has historically had the water as part of its natural ecosystem. And let's remember, the Canal and River Trust does not pay for water anywhere else across England or Wales.

If nothing changes, we will see boat hire businesses go under. We'll see tourism businesses drying up. And we'll see people lose jobs, pubs and shops lose trade, and the communities along the canal lose a central part of the social and economic life of my constituency. We'll see wildlife along this 35-mile green corridor lost. The canal itself is home to 112 protected species, yet the licensing decision failed to consider the canal's ecology as part of the same ecosystem as the River Usk. We also risk the future of Torfaen's canal restoration strategy, linked directly to the regeneration of parts of Cwmbran, falling apart if water cannot be guaranteed to flow.

And let's talk about the people who work on the canal, like Dai Tugg, who has made his business on the canal in my constituency. He has shown off my constituency to thousands and thousands of people across the years, and I think it would be an absolute travesty if a business like his had to go to the wall because of a decision made by NRW. But let me be clear: this isn't a marginal issue, or an issue about abstract technical water management debates, this is about livelihoods, heritage, wildlife tourism and community health and well-being.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Will you take an intervention?

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Yes, I will, Jenny.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

NRW is between a rock and a hard place, because the reason they're having to contain the amount of water that's being taken out of the Usk is because of the impact on the nature and the wildlife in the Usk. And surely this is fundamentally down to the fact that we collectively haven't husbanded our water resources over the years.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I don't disagree with you. I think a lot more work does need to be done improving all waterways, but what I do not want to see happen is one waterway being destroyed just to keep another one going. I don't think that's the most appropriate way to manage our waterways across Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, let me be honest: this is a problem caused by NRW's licensing decision and by a lack of joined-up thinking, and it's been made worse by the failure, I think, of this Government to bring people around the table to step in and sort it out. Almost 14,000 people, some of whom are in the gallery here behind us, signed a petition calling for us to protect the future of this canal for future generations, and all those people expect action. They do not expect excuses. What we've been hearing is buck passing between different organisations, saying, 'It's nothing to do with us.'

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Rubbish.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

It's not rubbish, Cabinet Secretary. I'll happily take an intervention from you if you want to. You'll speak later—well, that's fine. Let's keep quiet for now then. [Interruption.]

We need NRW, the Canal and River Trust, Dŵr Cymru and local authorities around the table—[Interruption.]

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Order.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

—because we need to find a practical, affordable and fair solution to the problem. What I think we need to do is get Welsh Government to direct NRW to pause enforcement of the current licensing restrictions while that workable, long-term solution is put in place. I think that's entirely reasonable. The canal and river have existed for over two centuries, and we are seeing improved nutrient levels in the River Usk, and I think that we shouldn't be using that as a reason not to put water in the canal.

We do need that joined-up strategy, and we are facing the real prospect of the first operational closure in England and Wales due to the Government's inaction. So, Cabinet Secretary, I think the time is now for you to act. I think it's time for you to step in, because if you don't, businesses will close—

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

The Member must now conclude.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I will conclude now, acting Presiding Officer. Businesses will close, our ecology will be damaged, and a lifeline of our communities will be gone, and all we will see is a dry ditch running through constituencies across Wales, and I think that will be an absolute travesty for our communities.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the committee and the petitioners. The Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, or the ‘Mon and Brec’ as it's known among local residents, is a key part of our national heritage, because this waterway is a witness to over two centuries of rich history, from Dadford, Outram and Crosley’s engineering vision to the labour of the navvies who cut its course out of the hard ground; from the iron, the coal and limestone transported to fire Blaenavon’s blazing furnaces to the burgeoning communities on the banks of this vibrant artery; from its decline and displacement by the new technology of the railways, to its restoration, revival and renewal towards the end of the twentieth century. Today it's a flourishing commercial, cultural and environmental hub, a thread that, in total contrast with its origins, now stitches together human society and nature in harmonious co-existence.

The fact that the canal is on the brink of total destruction is a reflection of how seriously we neglect our heritage and our landscapes. And it is a powerful and visible reminder of the price that is paid as a result of the climate emergency. It's inevitable that similar problems related to water shortages will arise again with increasing frequency in coming years. I fear that the Government's response has been disappointing to date. Not only is it a response that has showed a lack of understanding, perhaps, of the canal's wider value, but it's one that ignores the reality that it is within the Government's gift to at least review Natural Resources Wales's relevant licensing requirements.

The introduction of further flexibilities could be considered in terms of Dŵr Cymru's payment mechanisms for canal trusts. On top of that, the new regulations regarding water extraction are based on deficient rationale. They set the need to safeguard the River Usk ecosystem, which is, of course, so important, but it sets that against the need to maintain a healthy water level on the canal, which ignores the fact that the canal is itself an important ecosystem. I reject that assumption entirely. There is a sustainable balance to be struck here, and the price of not achieving that will be far greater than simply losing a waterway; it will mean the loss of a whole way of life for the businesses, the communities and the wildlife that call the canal home.

The interim solution is something that I welcome. It has been agreed between the trust and Dŵr Cymru to keep the canal in operation for the near future. Again, that is to be welcomed, but a solution that costs over £100,000 a month to a charitable trust is clearly not sustainable. So, I encourage the Welsh Government to demonstrate that firm and proactive leadership that is needed on this matter, to develop a solution that ensures that future generations can enjoy the canal before the waters run dry for another one of our treasured cultural and historical assets.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I became very interested in the Mon and Brec canal after a meeting with my constituents, Fiona and Steve Burt, who spend much of their time living on a 58 ft narrowboat, and they imparted to me their enthusiasm and their love for the canal, for the way of life and the privilege they feel to be able to live in our wonderful Welsh environment on the canal. And of course, as Carolyn Thomas said in her introduction, there are people who are living there permanently. It is an absolutely unique place that I have visited over the years.

The Mon and Brec has been part of our landscape for 225 years, and it does provide vitally important tourism income, which has been mentioned, for the towns and villages and the other businesses along the canal. And it is absolutely essential for the ecology and wildlife that are so dependent on it. The changes made to the abstraction licence mean that, according to the River Usk catchment abstraction management strategy, abstraction from the Usk is only likely to be possible for 51 days of the year, and this will probably be during the winter months. And, of course, this is the time when the canal itself will already be filled by rainfall. This is not enough to sustain the canal, and that is why the arrangement with Dŵr Cymru is so important.

However, as has already been said today, the costs of the abstraction agreement are prohibitive, and it has been reported that it is costing approximately £100,000 per month. As it stands, the canal is not commercially viable, as it supports only 400 boats with an average licence fee of £1,000 per annum. It is maintained primarily by the charity in accordance with its charitable objectives. So, really, the right commercial decision for the Canal and River Trust could be to close the canal. And I think the threat of this must absolutely ring alarm bells with us all in the Senedd and with the Government.

I understand that the arrangements between Dŵr Cymru and the Canal and River Trust are classed as commercially sensitive, but would the Cabinet Secretary consider supporting the trust's call for a mutually fair, non-commercial arrangement, so that we do not risk losing this absolutely fantastic, unique waterway in Wales? I do not feel that we can stand by here and let that happen.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Firstly, I'd like to very much thank the petitioner, Councillor Jan Butler, for the initial petition, which gained over 14,000 signatures. And a big thanks to the many people who turned up today on the Senedd steps to air their voices and share their concerns—concerns that we all share. There was cross-party support on the steps today, recognising the importance of this valuable asset. It's a jewel in the crown of what Wales has to offer. And it's a sad day when we are having to come here to argue for the future of our canal, one of the most fantastic bits of environmental asset we have, which is under jeopardy.

As we've heard, and we will be repeating the same issues, we've heard of the licensing placing limits on the amount of water that we can extract from the River Usk. But it's strange, isn't it, that we follow one environmental aspiration with little consideration of what we're doing to another environmental asset. This holistic view, it doesn't seem to happen where we can look at everything in the round, and then we find ourselves with these real issues. We shouldn't be looking to have to supply water now or pay for water that has been free for 225 years. We are further advanced than that. We should have had systems in place to maintain these assets for future generations. So far, the trust, as we know, is committed to purchasing water until March 2026, and it's obvious no charity can continue to do that forever.

So, what is the future? If left, the canal is going to dry out, become inoperable. But it's not just drying out and making it inoperable. Look at the drastic ecological impacts, as well as the huge economic consequences. It's astonishing that the canal does not have the same level of conservation designation as the River Usk, despite playing a vital role in Monmouthshire's—in my case—natural beauty and biodiversity. So I would encourage Natural Resources Wales and the Welsh Government to consider the waterways being treated in similar ways. I know they might not be able to treat it exactly the same, but to be given parity in the focus that they need.

As we've heard, the Canal and River Trust in Wales estimates that the canal supports 77 hectares of area habitats, with 46 hectares of woodland and 7 hectares of grassland, 58 km of watercourse habitat and over 33 km of native and species-rich native hedgerow. And data shows, as we've also heard, that there are 1,339 species recorded in proximity of the canal corridor, comprising 112 different priority species, meaning that the canal has the highest number of priority species of any canal in Wales. The canal also plays an incredibly important role in the wider rural economy, supporting, as we know, 276 jobs and an estimated output of some £30 million a year. So, the Welsh Government needs to step in and provide a long-term solution to the crisis that the canal is facing. No responsible Government would risk the future of such an essential environmental asset.

I know the Government tried to divest itself of responsibility initially around this. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary, though, is as keen as any of us to find a solution that creates a sustainable future for the canal. I wish him well in trying to do that, because it's absolutely fundamental that this happens so that we can assure canal businesses, so that they have security for the future and that we can honour our tourism offer in Wales, but also to those people who live on that canal; it's their home. And for those of us and the many thousands of people in Wales whose well-being depends on that canal, because it does so much for people's lives in so many ways.

I do hope that we can find a solution with all parties working together that is truly sustainable and preserves for future generations assets such as this. It's so important. Thank you.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Can I thank all of those who have joined us today from the area and for your campaign? Because without your campaign and without you bringing this to the attention of so many people—including myself—we would not be here. Thank you for arranging for the petition and thank you for the meetings that we've had as well; it's been really appreciated. I'm proud to speak in support of this petition and for the 14,000 people who've signed it. Their message is clear: the Brecon and Mon canal matters.

The canal is actually the single most visited attraction in Bannau Brycheiniog. It has attracted, as we've heard, over 3 million visitors, so it is absolutely critical to the area. It is far more than a waterway. It is a living, working part of our national heritage. A 35-mile green corridor winding through the heart of Bannau Brycheiniog and onwards to the communities of Cwmbran and Newport. For 225 years, it has served our people. Connecting villages, supporting industries, offering sanctuary for wildlife and generating both well-being, as Peter Fox has mentioned, and economic prosperity. And now—which is why we are here this afternoon—we risk losing it.

The canal is facing an existential crisis. Since the implementation, as we've heard, of the new water abstraction licence in March 2025, water levels have already dropped to near non-navigable levels. The new restrictions from Natural Resources Wales limit what can be drawn from the River Usk—a source that has supplied over 80 per cent of the canal's flow for more than two centuries. The Usk is a designated special area of conservation, and we must, of course, protect its biodiversity. But the canal, too, supports 112 protected species and acts as a vital ecological corridor, with the highest number of priority species on any Welsh canal. The decision to prioritise one habitat over another has created a false and deeply damaging dichotomy. It should not be a zero-sum game. The Usk and the Mon and Brec are not rivals. They're independent ecosystems, two arteries of the same living landscape, shaped together for over 200 years, and we must protect both.

We do celebrate all of the businesses, all of the tourist industries along the canal, but also, as has been mentioned by Julie Morgan, those people who literally live on the canal. For those that bought houseboats, many of them permanent residents, falling water levels means not just inconvenience, but potential homelessness. Already the Canal and River Trust, a charity, is being forced to purchase emergency water, as we've heard.

The canal is a testament to our industrial past, built by an Act of Parliament in 1792. I had to make sure I got those numbers right—1792. It has enabled the transport of coal, iron, and limestone, as we've heard from Delyth, through the valleys and hills of Wales. It would be an appalling irony if, on the two hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary of the canal's completion, we let this thread of history be severed by short-sighted policy and our institutional inflexibility.

The petitioners are not asking for the impossible. They are asking for urgency, for leadership, and for joined-up thinking. I'm hoping that when we come to hear from the Cabinet Secretary, we'll be able to hear that there is leadership, and there is an opportunity for that joined-up thinking. There is a way that we can make sure that both the Usk and the Brec and Mon continue to thrive.

If we fail to act, the Mon and Brec could close, possibly within months. Boat hire companies and trip operators already face financial uncertainty. Communities will lose a vital engine. Wildlife will be displaced. People will lose their homes. And we will all lose part of who we are. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

It was very good to speak to petitioners on the steps of the Senedd earlier and hear from them first-hand how greatly they value the Mon to Brec canal, how much it means to them, including people who live on canal barges, people who volunteer and do so much work to enhance and help develop that canal for all the communities that live along its route, to hear about its importance for heritage, for our industrial history, for nature, being that green artery through our communities.

Personally, I use the stretch at Newport. Although it's in my colleague Jane Bryant's constituency of Newport West rather than Newport East, I use it regularly. I run along the canal, I walk along the canal, I cycle along the canal. I've seen kingfishers, herons, nesting swans and a variety of wildfowl and many other species as well, testifying to its ecological and biodiversity importance.

We've heard so many compelling reasons in this debate, I think, haven't we, in terms of why we need to support this petition and ensure the future of that canal. One thing I'd like to add to that is the usage of the canalside. In Newport, for example, big social housing estates in Bettws and Malpas use that canalside to walk, to cycle into the city centre in Newport. Big sections of the population enhance their own everyday life experience by using the canal in that way.

A lot of the work to the canalside has been done by committed volunteers over very many years. If we're not to have that thriving canal with water along its route and make as much of it navigable as possible, then to get that enthusiasm, to get that commitment from volunteers is going to be considerably more difficult, I think. We need to support them in the work that they do that allows that artery, for health and well-being and active travel, to be available for substantial sections of our population along its route. It just has so much value in so many different ways, doesn't it? And we've heard powerful testament to that here today in this debate.

I really do hope that the Welsh Government can find a way, in working with partner organisations, to ensure that all the good work that's gone into enhancing and developing the Mon to Brec canal, over so many years, is not hindered and hampered by the difficulties that we've heard about in this debate today. We really do need to find a way to support the petitioners, understand the value of the canal, and make sure that it's not just preserved and protected, but it's enhanced for the future.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

In its two hundred and twenty-fifth year, it was a real joy to visit the Monmouth and Brecon canal, and I don't use the word 'joy' lightly. A lovely lady at the canal, who had significant caring responsibilities at home, told me that she felt an incredible sense of calm at the canal, and that was also my experience. There was some sort of tranquillity to the place. You felt better standing beside its still waters. The canal, as others have already said very eloquently, is far more than a man-made waterway. It's a home for some, and it was a pleasure to meet some of the barge owners who live on the canal. It's a business for others, and we had the opportunity to meet business owners who work on the canal itself and along the canal.

It's a place of leisure for many, and a location where nature thrives. It's such a shame, as others have already said, that the new licensing requirement for water abstraction is threatening all of this. People, as Jane Dodds has already said, are facing losing their homes, their jobs, their retreat from the strain of life. The current emergency water provisions are only a limited fix, as others have already said again, and this is coming at great expense to the charity responsible for the canal. It simply cannot last. It's diverting important resource away from the maintenance and the safety of the canal, canal users, and the safety of people who live alongside the canal.

The canal attracts millions of visitors each year and brings in a huge amount annually to local businesses. But walking around, you couldn't help but notice how nature was thriving there. You can read the figures, but you've got to go there to really experience it and marvel at how a man-made waterway has become such a beautiful part of the natural environment in that part of the world. Failing to protect this canal would be to lose a living piece of Welsh history. We have lost so many important signs of our past. We've lost the majority of the Glamorgan canal. But there is no reason why this canal cannot be saved. In fact, more than that, it needs to be saved. Its beauty and its tranquillity should be enjoyed for centuries to come.

The canal came into existence following a UK Act of Parliament. Today, the Petitions Committee, the petitioners themselves, and, it sounds, cross-party support across the Senedd, is asking the Welsh Government to step in, to work with others, and to preserve this incredible resource for future generations. Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I now call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Can I just begin by thanking all those Members who have contributed to this very important debate today, and also those petitioners who added their name to the petition, and those who turned up today? I spoke to a few of them outside on the steps of the Senedd. It was a real delight to speak with them.

It is a very important debate, and everybody who's contributed to the debate today spoke with passion about the canal. And just to say, from a Welsh Government perspective, from a personal perspective as well, I recognise the Mon and Brec canal is vitally important for all of the reasons that have been outlined today: the people who live on it, who take their recreation alongside it; those who benefit from the tourism multipliers that come from it; but also the wildlife corridor that it is; and so many other benefits as well. We recognise that entirely. But also there's the cultural heritage that the canal represents as well. And I think the spirit that people have spoken with today, and which the petitioners have brought forward, echoes, I have to say, the original spirit of those pioneers who protected and safeguarded the current network of canals across the UK, which back in the postwar years seemed doomed to being, indeed, dry ditches—people like Tom Rolt and others, who literally put themselves in canals and paddled up waterways that were bogged down and were dirty and full with rubbish and weeds, and they reopened them year after year after year. So, that spirit is still going strong and I welcome that spirit.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

And I recognise this very well as well, because, of course, I was the former Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister with responsibility for canals and waterways. It's important to mention that, because one character that hasn't been mentioned within this today is actually the role not just of Welsh Government but of UK Government. I was the canals and waterways Minister in the UK Government. Now, we have responsibilities here in Wales, but there are also responsibilities for the UK Government, so I think in the way forward, we need to think about bringing all the players together—all of the players together—to actually look at the solutions, and I'll touch on that in a moment.

Can I say as well that I know this canal very well? I know it intimately. I've literally paddled every stretch of this in my Canadian canoe. I've walked and cycled it. I've camped along it. I've stayed in the hostelries along it. I know it very well. I've used the canal boats alongside it as well, over many years. It is a great asset and we do need to protect it.

But what this fundamentally comes down to is that the canal relies on a sufficient supply of water to function. This is industrial heritage, but it's now actually a modern tourism and recreational facility as well. It requires water to function. Now, for many years, as has been pointed out, the canal's operators, the Canal and River Trust, abstracted from the River Usk to maintain this supply. However, in 2018, NRW removed the abstraction licence exemptions for navigation purposes to ensure that the licences complied with environmental directives, such as the habitats directive. And just to remind Members, the habitats directive is very important. It is designed to protect special areas of conservation, as you were saying earlier on there, like the River Usk. I've been on that River Usk, actually working on the improvements. The money that we're putting into the improvements on that from the top of the catchment to the lower—. I don't think anybody in here is saying we shouldn't be looking after the River Usk. We have to do that as well, and the habitats directive is important. So, actually, James, the idea of suspending this and going backwards and saying, 'Well, that doesn't matter for another 12 months or two years or three years'—I don't think you'll find support across the Chamber for doing that. However, there is a way forward.

Now, James and Peter, and all those who contributed, can I just say, if there was an easy answer, we'd have done it already? It isn't an easy answer. What this will require is bringing people around the table together and looking at solutions that we can devise together. And this will require putting heads together of all the players within this space, which I'll come to in a moment. But there are fundamental issues facing the canal, which require long-term solutions. With those 14,000 petitioners, I understand fully the strength of feeling that's arisen because of these challenges, but I think those people who attended, the petitioners that I spoke to on the steps, will want us to actually—. The leadership that is needed is actually to bring people together and look for those solutions, not simply to point fingers at one person or another. Let's work together and find the solutions in a very Welsh way.

So, I just want to reassure the Senedd that the Welsh Government is fully committed to enabling a workable solution, and my thanks to those who've already come together on this issue, including somebody who hasn't been able to speak in this debate yet, which is my friend, the Member for Torfaen, who with others—council leaders, and some of the people I suspect who were involved in the petition, but actually others, and also the agencies, with our support—came together to explore some of those solutions already and we were pleased to have the read-out from that meeting. But we've also been working on this as well. So, I share this common goal of supporting the canal whilst addressing also the urgent environmental challenges—and these are urgent, James—that threaten the ecological status of the River Usk. Just pocket that for a moment, because it's not one or the other; we need to find the solutions for the canal whilst also protecting the ecological status of the Usk and the temporary fluctuations in nutrients do not mean that the trend is upwards. There is a lot of work to do on the Usk. James.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'd just like to correct you. I never once said that we should trade one off against the other, I said that they should be worked at together. Just to correct what you said.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed, but you did suggest suspending this for a year.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Because it isn't working now.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

This is not a conversation, this is a debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Look, I share the common goal that we're trying to strive towards. It's very important to note that many of the potential solutions may primarily fall within the remit of several actors directly involved in the management of the canal and its historic infrastructure.

So, just to outline this: the general management of the canal network lies with the Canal and River Trust, and my thanks for a conversation—

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

No, I don't think that the Deputy First Minister has got time. He is over time already. So, I'm asking him to look to conclude, please, Deputy First Minister.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Sorry. Crikey. Okay. Sorry, my apologies, I thought I had more time. My apologies. Okay, some of those players will be the Canal and River Trust, the UK Government, local authorities along the canal, Natural Resources Wales. Other agencies will need to be brought together. I've held several meetings over recent months to better understand the challenges that the canal faces, to understand what might be in scope as possible solutions. The committee will be aware of some of the first positive steps towards this goal, with the temporary solution, a short-term solution to supply the canal with additional water over the coming year. This is a lifeline for now and, although we're not involved in these commercial negotiations, we're pleased to hear of this short-term solution. But also there are discussions ongoing on other solutions as well, with Dŵr Cymru and the canal. And I met last month with Natural Resources Wales and Dŵr Cymru to listen to further ideas and possible longer term solutions.

But the way that we take this ahead—. I fully support the intention behind the petition. So, I just want to reassure Members that Welsh Government is actively engaged with finding a solution and facilitating that broader dialogue with key partners, which is crucial. So, I am meeting with local authorities and other political representatives and agencies imminently—and I mean imminently—to discuss and to scope out next steps, and I'm happy to issue a further update to Members once a way forward has been agreed. We all want the canal to prosper, but we want the Usk to prosper too. So, we've got to find a solution that's workable and sustainable for the people of Wales now and for the future as well, and this will require balancing support for the canal with addressing the urgent environmental challenges that threaten the ecological status of the River Usk. But thank you to all of the petitioners, all of the Members who have spoken today. Let's see if we can work together to find a solution that is sustainable and for the long term. Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I now call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'd like to thank Members for their contributions. I'm not going to go through them all, because I know that time is limited and we've taken longer than was allocated for this, but I think that it was really important as well, so thank you. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response, and I'm delighted that the Deputy First Minister has already invited stakeholders to get around the table and work together to find a solution. Those stakeholders: NRW, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, CRT, local authorities—we need to include the users, the commercial operators group, the group as well. They need to be a part of that stakeholder group, please, as well.

I'd just like to say that CRT managed the water themselves before they were told that they couldn't extract. So, when the water levels were low, they closed the gates and they managed it. So, I really hope that they can come together and find a solution, but thank you for the leadership. You were right as well; I received a letter from the MP Ruth Jones to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee asking what they're going to do about it, because it's cross-government. Some 20 per cent of CRT funding comes from DEFRA. I hope that when the committee comes to reconsider the petition after the summer recess, we will be able to tell everyone who lives, works, relaxes and enjoys the canal that a way has been found to preserve and protect the Mon and Brec.

The canal has survived 200 years of tumultuous history, and given the passion of the stakeholders—and many are here today; thank you for your efforts in bringing it to our attention and for all the work you've done—and the strong desire of everyone here to preserve and protect a special place, it should not be beyond us to find new ways to ensure that it can continue to thrive for 200 years more. Diolch. Thank you.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee Report, 'The Foundational Economy'

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

We'll move on to item 8, which is the debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'The Foundational Economy'. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and I formally move the motion standing in my name on the order paper this afternoon. I'd like to start this afternoon by noting that this piece of work predates my time as Chair of the committee, so I'd like to put on record my thanks to your good self, acting Presiding Officer, for the work you did when you chaired the committee and all the work that you undertook on this particular inquiry.

The foundational economy, as Members here will know, includes hairdressers, GPs, care workers and the people who work in our local shops, et cetera—in short, 60 per cent of businesses that are headquartered here in Wales. These are jobs that you will find in every community across Wales with foundational economy workers providing vital services to their friends and neighbours. They are the jobs that are hard to outsource or offshore and create the backbone of our economy and represent 40 per cent of the workforce. But most people working in the foundational economy probably have no idea that they are. I think if you spoke to someone in the barbers or in the GP waiting room and you told them, 'I've just read a fantastic report that the Senedd economy committee have just put together on the foundational economy'— thank you, Hefin, for nodding in agreement—their first question would be, 'What is the content? What is it about? What is the foundational economy?' And that's not an unreasonable question. That is why part of our first recommendation is that the Welsh Government must work with practitioners to create a simple one-line definition to increase awareness of the foundational economy, and I am pleased to say the Welsh Government accepted this recommendation.

The foundational economy is an area that is often overlooked by policy makers. It does not attract as much attention from politicians or from policy makers as some other parts of the economy. The foundational economy gets on with it—and despite Government, as opposed to being accelerated by Government. That said, the foundational economy has been part of the Welsh Government's approach to economic development for nearly 10 years.

In its latest economic mission the Welsh Government commits to strengthening the foundational economy. To achieve its aims, the Welsh Government must take evidence-based practical steps and turn ambition into reality. This report contains 10 recommendations that will support that goal. The committee heard about some great examples of best practice when gathering its evidence. For example, Members heard about the work done by Castell Howell and others to support children to eat more Welsh-produced vegetables in schools and to create sustainable, locally sourced menus for conferences. They also heard about Aneurin Bevan health board's grow-your-own approach to recruitment, where the health board is finding people in their local community with the right attitude, the right outlook and who want a job supporting their friends and neighbours. These people may not have the qualifications and that creates a barrier; a problem for the individual who can't work where they would like, and a problem for the health board who can't recruit to fill the vacancy. So, instead of trying to attract workers from elsewhere to fill the need, the health board is training them up.

Recommendations 2 to 5 are aimed at ensuring the Welsh Government is in a position to identify, promote and support these and other good practices occurring across Wales. These include developing key performance indicators that will help Welsh Government achieve these aims, supporting the bottom-up development of the foundational economy interventions and ensuring it replicates best practice from other cross-cutting policy areas in its approach to the foundational economy, using this to assess how well organisations are meeting foundational economy goals. I am also pleased to say the Welsh Government accepted these recommendations. We're doing a lot better than last week's report, Minister; well done. [Laughter.]

Recommendation 6 is the call on Welsh Government to outline how it will improve the long-term financial support available to successful foundational economy initiatives, and I am pleased to say that this was accepted.

Recommendations 7 and 8 are based around the use of the Welsh public sector pound to support the foundational economy in improving procurement methods. Again, both these were accepted. I particularly look forward to seeing how the Welsh Government uses its powers under recent procurement legislation to support small businesses.

Recommendation 9 is designed to replicate the successful grow-your-own workforce initiatives the committee heard about. This too was accepted.

Finally, recommendation 10 was aimed at the Welsh Government using its devolved levers to improve terms and conditions in the public and private sectors. One of the challenges for the foundational economy is that some of these jobs are often low quality or low pay. Improving the quality of the jobs in the foundational economy will greatly improve the life of many people here in Wales. This recommendation was only accepted in principle, so I'd be interested to see what the Government proposes to do in this area.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her positive response to this report and our recommendations. I now hope that the Cabinet Secretary will put these recommendations into practice to help our foundational economy thrive, and to improve the lives of the people of Wales. I look forward to the contributions from Members today and from the Cabinet Secretary. Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, temporary Presiding Officer.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

And my thanks to Andrew R.T. Davies and, indeed, to you, Paul Davies, as Chair of the committee during this inquiry, to all of the witnesses who gave evidence, and to the committee clerking team for bringing this together. It is a lean report; I have it in my hand. And as Andrew R.T. Davies referred to, we're in a better place this week than with our previous report last week, with recommendations being accepted or accepted in principle by the Government, which is to be welcomed.

The first recommendation may sound technical—adopting Professor Karel Williams's dual definition. And didn't Professor Karel Williams give some colourful evidence to us at some points? Looking at Luke Fletcher, it's the first time that I've ever heard swear words in a committee session, by Professor Karel Williams. But he really sold the reasons behind it. It was actually very forceful evidence from Professor Williams. Indeed, his dual definition, which includes both essential local services, like care, utilities and housing, and also broader well-being factors, such as affordable essentials, social infrastructure and climate resilient enterprise, that clarity over what counts as the foundational economy, means that a care co-operative in Saundersfoot, through to a builder in Whitland, can all see themselves in Government policy, rather than wondering where they fit in the box. I'm pleased that Ministers have accepted this outright and that the new definition went live in April.

The second recommendation presses for hard-edged metrics and a delivery plan. Indeed, I really love a key performance indicator. Government has accepted this in principle and promised a prospectus in the first quarter of 2026—not that there's anything else happening in 2026. The document must move beyond warm words to those measurable targets that I mentioned, such as local spend retained, real living wage accreditations achieved, carbon saved—just some examples. Because rural constituencies like mine, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, can't afford just another strategy that is glossy in itself, but just gathers dust on a shelf.

Recommendation 3 champions bottom-up, quote, 'alliances of the willing', a term that we heard quite often from Professor Williams in his evidence—giving local innovators the freedom to try ideas first and report later. Government's acceptance here, and its pledge to scale up the community of practice model tested in the food sector, is very good news.

Another point was that the prescriptive nature of grants sometimes is a difficulty. That was evidence given to us. How narrow certain grants can be means that, actually, that money, if it's grant money, could be better spent if it was given without some sort of constrictions on it, because those on the ground know how best to spend that money, because they're the ones in the thick of it. So, sometimes, the prescriptive nature of grants isn't always what's best, in terms of returning value for the taxpayer.

We also urge Ministers, in recommendation 5, to put every evaluation in one place, so that successes can be copied quickly rather than rediscovered slowly. This has been agreed, and a dedicated web page, backed by resources from Cynnal Cymru, is now live, which we welcome. For a small business trying to navigate funding streams, having a single knowledge hub is really vital.

Finally, Llywydd dros dro, recommendation 7 tackles procurement, something that we've discussed in a number of our committee inquiries. It is the engine that can keep the Welsh pound, as the Chair of the committee mentioned, circulating in Welsh towns. Supplier roadshows this spring, and a second foundational economy expo in the autumn, are steps in the right direction. But the real prize lies in using the procurement and social partnership Act to look beyond the lowest price and towards social value. That must translate into contracts for businesses and people in Wales.

Llywydd dros dro, the foundational economy is not a policy theory. It is the everyday fabric of our communities. Indeed, I didn't quite understand what the foundational economy meant, because I looked at that terminology and I thought: is that building, because of foundations? But it's such a broad definition that, actually, this inquiry has been a lot of learning for me, in my role, and it's something that I really welcome.

The Government's constructive response is encouraging, but, as always, the proof will be in the pudding and delivery will be the real test. The committee will watch this progress, and I will keep beating the drum for the small businesses rooted in our communities who help prop up our economy. Diolch, Llywydd dros dro.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

From the outset, I'd also like to join the Chair and Sam Kurtz in thanking the previous Chair of the committee for his work during this inquiry. I'd also like to extend a 'thank you' to the current Chair as well, to fellow committee members and the clerks, in particular, for their work in putting this report together. Of course, I'd also like to thank those who gave evidence to the committee. Sam Kurtz hinted at it. There was some interesting, colourful evidence that came forward. I'm not quite sure that's the first time, though, we've heard swearing in the committee. It definitely is the first time we've heard it in a public session, and I'm sure there's a number of members of the committee who would then point to the private sessions saying I'm responsible for most of the language in the private sessions, but that's by the by.

I think, actually, now there's a strong and growing body of work on the foundational economy in Wales, because it's something we've been discussing for a very long time. It is playing a role in how we understand our economy, its weaknesses, but also as well its potential. But I think that common recognition amongst policy makers of a set of problems has, thus far, not led to a clear set of solutions. There's a broad agreement on the diagnosis, but less clarity on what to do about it. So, it's welcome that the Welsh Government has accepted the vast majority of the recommendations in this report.

Turning to the report itself, one of the important points raised was around how we actually measure progress. Sam Kurtz referenced it. Various stakeholders mentioned that it would be good to see a set of indicators and targets against which to measure that progress within the foundational economy, and I think this is a worthwhile pursuit. What I would say is that the conventional economic metrics, which we're quite tethered to as a society, are often at odds with what intervention in the foundational economy seeks to achieve. The be-all and end-all when it comes to assessing our economic health is typically benchmarked on GDP, which is a crude yardstick for assessing a nation's health and well-being. There are plenty of approaches around the world that are deprioritising GDP—the best-known alternatives probably being the index of sustainable economic welfare and the genuine progress indicator. I think we should actually be exploring alternatives as well. So, it's good to see, to an extent, that the Government has accepted recommendation 2 in principle, and that it's working to develop a number of key performance indicators to crystallise actually what it is we want to achieve within the foundational economy. I'll be keeping an eye, as will other Members, on how that work progresses.

But it's really important that, if we actually want to measure the success of the foundational economy, we find those key indicators that will allow us to measure it in the things that are important to it and not just default to some of those traditional ways of measuring. For example, I would actually like to see ownership featured among those key performance indicators. We know that there are currently not enough meaningfully owned Welsh resources, institutions or businesses in Wales to begin to turn the tide. Addressing that should inform, I think, the Government's work within the foundational economy.

Funding, of course, is another issue that came up a lot during the inquiry. The problem, I think, with the way that funds like the foundational economy challenge fund actually work is that money is drip fed to a wide range of organisations across sectors. And while I understand that the foundational economy is broad and dispersed by its nature, the lack of volume or strategic funding for specific activities and places means that the impact is often quite diluted. Foundational Economy Alliance Wales made this point well, and I agree with them on it. The funding is ad hoc and incoherent, and we need to resource it properly, and that means, actually, funding that's consistent, coherent and long term.

Now, of course, Wales was among the first Governments to adopt the language of the foundational economy, but we're not alone in exploring these ideas. The Preston model of community wealth building has had a lot of attention recently, particularly for its use of procurement by anchor institutions to retain and recirculate wealth locally. But that model can only go so far unless you have a base of capable local suppliers. That was a point raised by Professor Karel Williams in the last Senedd to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and it's an important one for Wales. We have to build capacity if we want these ideas to take root. And, in fact, we do have positive examples already, especially in the north-west. In Blaenau Ffestiniog, for example, you can see a bottom-up version of community wealth building taking shape. Unlike Preston, though, where the council took the lead, in Blaenau it's been driven by the community through a network of social enterprises like Galeri Caernarfon, Yr Orsaf Penygroes, and Partneriaeth Ogwen. They're working across care, energy, hospitality and transport, and they show what's possible when local people have ownership and agency.

Now, if Preston is a top-down model focused on procurement and regeneration, Blaenau is the grass-roots equivalent, rooted in social enterprises and co-operatives. So, it's something that I think we really need to explore, that role of co-operatives within the foundational economy. And looking at the time, temporary Llywydd, I think it's an important point to make here: we've talked about this concept of the foundational economy now for so long, and I think it's coming now to the crunch time. If we're really serious about this, then we need to start thinking strategically about how we approach the foundational economy, because, if we're not serious about it, then perhaps it's time for us to start thinking about something else. I don't want the Government to go down that route. I want the Government to see this through. I think there's a lot of value in it. But we really need now to start putting our money where our mouth is and do stuff in a strategic way that helps, then, that foundational economy to grow, and people's understanding of that foundational economy to improve as a result of that as well. Diolch.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Well, we started talking about this 10 years ago. It was one of the first things we did when we were first elected in 2016—I say 'we'; there was a few of us. All the others are in Government now.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

And you should be, Hefin.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Oh, thanks, Mike. One of the things we said in our debate back in, it was, 12 January 2017 was recognising that the sectors in the foundational economy are more resilient to external economic shocks and have considerable potential to generate greater local value from the provision of localised goods and services. That's the key point that we were making, and I'm now going do something called 'an Isherwood' and quote myself from 10 years ago, from 16 November 2016. I said this:

‘Why would any sensible owner-manager choose to employ...when there are cheaper, more accessible, trusted alternatives? A great many owner-managers have reliable sources of support available to them at least in the medium term. They may be in the form of strong ties to family and friends who will help in the running of the business, but over time the manager will form relationships with other business associates who provide mutually dependable support that goes well beyond a transactional relationship. Access to this social capital is vital for the early development and growth of the firm. So perhaps instead of seeking economic salvation from our small firms sector we should look instead at what small firms actually do—things that are fundamental to our daily lives.’

That is exactly what we are about. We are about taking this resilient sector and ensuring that that resilience continues and is expanded upon. I don't think it's ever going to be something that is transformational to the economy, but it is an ongoing engine of the economy. I often hear Members use this word, this term, for small firms, the 'lifeblood' of the economy. Well, they exist. I still haven't let it go, Hannah, even after 10 years.

So, I'm looking at recommendation 3, and I think that's what this is about. Recommendation 3 is exactly about that. Small firms don't compete with each—. Well, microfirms don't compete with each other. They work together. They interact with each other. I interviewed, for some research many years ago, a man who serviced hospital equipment, and was great with the technical aspects of the hospital equipment, but some of the internal electronics were unfamiliar to him. So, he got a friend who had an electronics company to come and work with him on a project, and they shared that money out. That's how procurement needs to work, ensuring that firms across the foundational sector are able to collaborate and bid for projects.

I think it was in recommendation 7 that the Welsh Government needs to outline how it will upscale best practice with regard to public sector procurement opportunities, and I'm glad to say the Cabinet Secretary has accepted recommendation 7 in full and has examined some of those difficulties in her response. I would say that one of the people recommended to me as a sector leader in the area of procurement, and I saw this with the Welsh housing quality standard procurement process, was Liz Lucas of Caerphilly County Borough Council. I would say to the Cabinet Secretary, if you haven't already spoken to Liz, and I imagine you have—yes—she's a leading star in the area of procurement and ensuring the foundational sectors are able to collaborate in order to achieve critical mass and gain from public sector procurement in a way that is not typical of how we expect procurement to work in that competitive way. In the foundational sector, it often doesn't.

So, I'm really happy with the report and the response, and, in spite of everything, and in spite of the time that's passed, I do think the Government has taken this strategy forward. I think it came as a result of an initiative of a few of us in 2016, 2017, 2018. I think COVID had a big impact on things, but what we've seen from the Government's response and the fact that they've accepted so many of the recommendations is that they're actually ahead of the curve, and are doing many of the things we've recommended already. So, I just want to see the progress continue. I think it's a very good report and I congratulate the committee on producing it, and I also look forward to hearing the Government's response.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I was one of the people who went to Preston, along with Lee Waters, to actually see Preston in practice. So, I think that, actually, there is a lot to be said about what Preston has done because it really has transformed what was quite a depressed community across Lancashire, and Preston is pretty much the capital of Lancashire. That doesn't detract at all from the excellent work that's been going on in Blaenau Ffestiniog, which was pump primed from the European Union work that we benefited from when we were a member.

I'd like to congratulate the Welsh Government on the work that it has done on revising its mission statement, co-produced after discussion and co-production with stakeholders, because I actually think it's a better definition, having looked at it, than the one we endeavoured to put into our report. I think it's clearer and easier to read. So, the foundational economy definitely refers to the sectors of the economy that provide the goods and services that underpin everyday life. End of sentence.

I absolutely welcome the fact that the Welsh Government is focused on the organisation and people in the foundational economy, as well as the quality and accessibility of goods and services, and also the citizens' sense of control and belonging in their community. That's something that we didn't particularly look at in this inquiry, but is certainly one we've looked at in the Equality and Social Justice Committee in our work on community cohesion, which is for another day.

Having visited Preston, I do think it is also not just about all these important things. It is also about retaining as much as possible of the Welsh pound in Wales. Most of the sectors listed in your mission statement, Cabinet Secretary, are doing just that. So, for example, care and health services, including social care and childcare, social housing, public transport particularly is going to be enhanced by the bus re-regulation Bill. But it starts to get more complicated once we get a bit further down, to talking about the construction of residential and commercial buildings, energy and utilities. We've just had a discussion about water, which we can leave for another day.

But, today, UK house builders have had to offer to pay £100 million at the end of a competition probe, where the Competition and Markets Authority have unearthed evidence that price information was shared between companies. So, I think one of the things we have to learn from that is we do need to build more social housing to prevent families having to live in private rented sector accommodation, because it really is so disruptive for children. And the sorts of prices that these house builders have been charging are completely out of range of the financial possibilities of the average family. So, we absolutely need to ensure that we have co-operative and social housing solutions to our housing problems.

We are better off when it comes to water than they are in England, because although we have concerns about Dŵr Cymru's performance on sewage discharges, we certainly don't have the wholesale asset stripping of the water industry suffered by most parts of England as a result of privatisation.

On food, it's a much more challenging landscape, because I can remember an event in the Senedd a year ago, where a man who I happened to be sitting next to described how the planning decision to allow a supermarket to locate on the outskirts of his town had eliminated all the local shops on the high street, and the only way to get to the supermarket was either to have a car—he didn't have one—or a very rare bus. So, that was a disastrous decision by the local authority, who failed to focus on the foundational economy.

I just wondered if you could—. In your response, I would particularly like to hear a little bit more about the work you've been doing that you mentioned in your response on recommendation 7. Because one of the most challenging things around food in the wider sense is how we're going to face down the big food behemoths, who spend billions of pounds creating and preserving their dominance of our food system and persuading people to eat things that are killing them. So, countering that is really, really challenging.

So, I really would be keen to hear about the Business Wales supplier road shows, which were due to take place in the last couple of months to try and encourage more foundational suppliers to find, bid and win public sector contracts. Because I think it's very good, in your response, to see that you are taking the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 seriously, and we heard this morning in the economy committee about the work that, for example, Monmouthshire has done to break down public procurement contracts into bite-sized chunks, so that small businesses can actually bid for them. So, I look forward to hearing your response.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, temporary Presiding Officer. I welcome this opportunity to take part in this debate.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I've got a little bit on the current Chair because I did join the committee part way through this inquiry, but I was keen to be part of it because, for me, as we've heard here already, the foundational economy is not an abstract concept, although, as we've heard, it can be difficult to define sometimes. But it is about the things that really matter to people in our communities, the services and jobs that keep those communities going, and it's about making the economy work as well as it can for as many people as possible.

So, I very much welcome this report and I think it rightly places fair work, community value and local supply chains at the heart of what a truly inclusive economy should look like, but I also think we can build on this and go further. The report shines a light on sectors that have all too often been undervalued or overlooked, things like care, cleaning, catering, construction. They're roles that keep our country going during the most difficult times, yet too often are characterised by low pay, poor conditions and insecure contracts.

So, that's why I'm particularly pleased to see the report call on the Welsh Government to do more to drive fair work across the foundational economy in recommendation 10, which calls for set requirements for public bodies to improve pay and working conditions, and working with social partners to develop and agree common minimum standards for pay and working conditions in the devolved public sector. And, of course, the Employment Rights Bill, which is currently making its way through the UK Parliament, could be able to underpin and uplift all of that. I think we also need to make a concerted effort to ensure that these standards are not just encouraged, but expected, because good work is the baseline, not the bonus.

One of the most interesting pieces for me for the time I was part of the inquiry was the evidence we heard about the concept of grow your own workforce: recruiting locally, investing in apprenticeships and giving people the opportunity to build a career closer to home. So, I think that demonstrates what the foundational economy can be about in action: creating local jobs, local pride and long-term investment in both people and places as well. And I think it's something that we need to think about, and Welsh Government needs to think about, how it can be and should be replicated elsewhere, whether that's in health, care, construction or catering. And we've heard today how anchor institutions have a vital role to play, and I think the recommendation in this report helps to put that into focus as well.

I'm particularly supportive of the report's recommendations around procurement. The Cabinet Secretary has heard me say more than once in this Chamber and the previous one that I actually find procurement really exciting, so I probably need to get out more. But it is one of the things that has the real potential to drive the outcomes that we've talked about in this Chamber today, and previously discussed, in terms of the social value and moving away from the pound having primacy in terms of actually how we do public spending and procurement. We've made progress with the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act, which I'm a little bit familiar with, but we need to make sure it makes a difference in practice now. So, I think, around recommendations 7 and 8, to call for that stronger, more transparent mechanism to prioritise local, ethical and social-value-led suppliers.

We heard, I think, Jenny Rathbone refer to the evidence we took today in committee around procurement. Again, I think one of the things to consider is, actually, not just that guidance, but the support for people and the capacity for them to be able to maximise how they can use that procurement element of the legislation. Also, as Hefin David said, how we can use collaboration to support some of those smaller businesses to actually have their fair share and be part of that too.

I also want to echo the importance of recommendation 3, calling for community-led, bottom-up innovation. As we've heard, many of the most impactful changes often come not from Government direction, but from local ideas that are backed by flexible funding and trusted to deliver and to make a difference. It's something that I've touched on previously in the Senedd and not so long ago in a short debate, on how we can make devolution work for workers and Wales, and the need to talk about bold locally.

Different ideas, we've heard examples of the Preston model and community wealth building, but other ideas are available as well. But central to that, it's about resilience, pride in place, and keeping wealth circulating in the communities for the benefit of those communities as well. So, I think we're moving in the right direction, but it's about the moment now to turn those principles into practice and keep moving. So, we go from pilots to permanence; the foundational sector is not as a safety net, but a spring board for that economy that we want to see that works for everyone. So, it's not just about backing it in words, but in contracts and in budgets, and not just investing in people because of the crisis, but from the start of their careers.

Llywydd dros dro, let's trust our communities with the tools and the funding to be able to shape and drive their own futures, because as we've heard today, the foundational economy is not about policy, it's about people, it's about places, and it's about investing in them, and if we get this right, we can not only create better jobs and stronger local economies, but create a more equal and confident country as well. Diolch.