Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 8 July 2025

413 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary session. Before we start, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025 was given Royal Assent on 7 July.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 1 is next, which is questions to the First Minister. The first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

1. How is the Welsh Government protecting the democratic right to protest in Wales? OQ63002

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Wales is a nation proud of its democratic values, and this Labour Government in Wales fiercely defends the right to protest peacefully. From climate justice to equality and human rights, we stand with those who stand up for what they believe in. Peaceful protest is part of our political tradition, and that tradition will always be protected. But let me be clear: there is no place in our democracy for hate, intimidation or incitement to violence. We will always draw the line where harm begins.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, First Minister. I agree with that response.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

But I submitted this question last week before 29 people were arrested in London over the weekend during a peaceful protest. This is the age we live in at the moment, unfortunately. The stimulus for this question was Caerdydd Students for Palestine. They’ve been protesting at Cardiff University campus for peace in Palestine since last year. When Cardiff University called the police, a police spokesperson said that the situation was a peaceful protest that required no further intervention. However, Cardiff University then hired a law firm that secured a civil injunction that is currently plastered across the university campus, warning, amongst other things, that no-one may enter, occupy or remain on the campus for the purpose of protest. A UN watchdog has described this as a flagrant violation of international human rights. The injunction threatens prison, seizure of assets and fines for violating the injunction. We have reached the point where those peacefully protesting, calling for peace, may fear being arrested and defending themselves in court. If peaceful protest, as students, led to prison, then most people here in the Siambr would have lengthy prison convictions themselves. Does the First Minister agree with me that imprisonment is not an appropriate response to peaceful protest, and how will she safeguard the democratic right of protest here in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. And can I refer Members to my declaration of interest as a member of Amnesty International? I’ve spent, like many people in this Chamber, a lot of time protesting about things that are close to our hearts. That’s why most of us came into politics, and so you certainly won’t get any kind of objection from me in terms of the hawl to protest. And, in particular, on issues that I think lots of us are seeing on our screens daily, in terms of what’s happening in Gaza, I think it's important that people are able to express their views on things like that.

Obviously, there has to be a line in terms of breaking the law and on stirring up racial hatred. So, we’ve just got to be very clear on that, but, as far as I’m concerned, the right to protest is a sacred right in relation to how we do it in Wales, and these are actually within articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which assures people of the right to be able to express themselves in Wales.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

In January of last year, First Minister, I said that the Welsh Government was walking a tightrope when it came to its relationship with the agricultural community here in Wales, following protests in Europe. Only a month later, over 4,500 farmers exercised their right to protest on the steps of the Senedd against the Welsh Government’s sustainable farming scheme. Now, next week, we’re expecting an updated statement on the sustainable farming scheme. And we know that, from the previous impact assessment, which outlined that there would be job losses, livestock reduction and economic harm, that led to the protest on 28 February. So, how confident are you as First Minister that this new iteration of the SFS will not lead to a mass protest on the steps of the Senedd, because the confidence of the Welsh agricultural community in this Government is at an all-time low?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Farmers have a right to protest, as does anybody else. That's absolutely within their rights. Let me say something about the sustainable farming scheme, because I know that the Deputy First Minister has spent hours and hours and hours and hours listening to farmers, and environmental groups, about what their concerns are and how they'd like to see the sustainable farming scheme work. We have a responsibility to balance up all of the different needs within our communities. Yes, the agricultural community needs to be supported, and boy are they supported—over £250 million-worth of support on an annual basis. That's quite a big amount of support for a sector that contributes less than 1 per cent to the GDP of the country. But, I do think it's important also for us to take the opportunity to say, 'Actually, you can play a really important role in terms of supporting the public, in terms of the things that we also want to see delivered.' The challenges of climate change are challenges for the agricultural community themselves. I think there is an important role for us to get the balance here. I'd like to thank the Deputy First Minister for his huge efforts on this. Clearly, he's been working with the agricultural unions, and we hope that, next week, we will get a constructive response from the agricultural sector.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Protest is a feature of politics here in Wales. It's one of the cornerstones of democracy, indeed. Your own party, of course, is rooted in the protest movement, if you look back to the time of the Chartists and the red banner that was flown in Merthyr. And, of course, in more recent times, we have seen non-violent protest that has led to many changes in our politics here in Wales, if you consider the work of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, CND Cymru and similar organisations, and, even more recently, Extinction Rebellion. These organisations have played a part in our politics, and have a role to play in our politics. In totalitarian states, on the other hand, they prevent protest and they imprison protesters. If you look at what's happening in Russia at the moment with the rights of LGBT people, people are imprisoned across the board. So, I'm pleased to hear your commitment to the individual's right to non-violent protest, but do you also believe that calling for peace and calling for a cessation of the sale of arms to nations and a cessation of genocide are good reasons for protesting, within non-violent boundaries?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I do think that it is important that we maintain the right to protest without violence. I think that is an important cornerstone of our democracy. As you said, those protests have led to major changes in our society. So, I do think it is very important that people have the right to call for peace and to protest. But, I want to be clear that there is a line, and if you demand that other people suffer and that it breaks the law, then clearly we wouldn't tolerate that.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the operation of inter-governmental relationships between the Welsh and UK Governments? OQ62998

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Since the change in Government in Westminster, there’s been a breath of fresh air in terms of inter-governmental relations. We’ve gone from Tory Ministers not even engaging with us to more than 30 formal inter-governmental meetings since September, including two top-tier summits. We’ve secured £6 billion more for Wales than we’d have had under the previous Conservative Government. That money has gone into coal tip safety, green energy and rail investment. We've seen £500 million for Tata Steel, £445 million for rail, £80 million to back offshore wind in Port Talbot. These are real wins for Wales, on top of the miners' pension fund. I think that's what grown-up Government looks like, co-operation over confrontation, and delivery over division.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, First Minister, for that response. Friday, as we know, marked a year to the day that Labour took office in Westminster. I'm not surprised that Sir Keir had no plans to celebrate, because I can tell you the rest of the country certainly didn't. Since Labour took office in Westminster—[Interruption.] Since Labour took office in Westminster, we have seen nothing but disastrous policies launched, and, even when UK Labour Ministers listen to reason and u-turn, they seem to make things worse. First Minister, it's become clear that you have been trying to distance yourself from the UK Labour Party over the last few weeks. So, will you create even more distance by calling on your Westminster colleagues to listen to the farming community and drop the devastating family farm tax? First Minister, in recent interviews, you've been asked about farm inheritance tax relief, but you haven't been able to answer the direct questions on it. So, I hope you will take the opportunity now to take a stance on the matter. This is one u-turn that our rural communities are crying out for. It's long past time that you listened to the Welsh farmers and stood up and called for UK Labour to ditch the family farm tax once and for all.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

You say that people haven't noticed the difference. I can tell you who has noticed a difference: the 150,000 people who have benefited from an increase in the minimum wage; the above-inflation pay rises for public sector workers—over 300,000 of them; the former mine workers who have now, for the first time, had the pensions that they deserve. These are all things that have been delivered, and I can tell you that the people who are in receipt of those benefits and those changes are actually celebrating the fact that, actually, they have done better under a Labour Government than anything under your party.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

First Minister, last week marked a milestone for your party. It's a little over a year since Starmer came to power in Westminster, and it has been a year marked by wrong turns, wrong-footedness and wrecked ideals. Time and again, we've seen Wales and our interests shoved to the margins of their agenda. Starmer and his Government have failed to give Wales the billions we are owed from HS2, they've resisted calls to devolve the Crown Estate, to make a fairer funding settlement, and they've ignored Wales's Government when asked for a Wales impact assessment of their callous welfare cuts. Now, whenever my party, Plaid Cymru, points out these bitter failures, we are told that things are better now than they were under the Tories, as though that low bar were an answer. So, I'd ask you, First Minister, after the year that's gone, and looking at Wales's best interests, are things better enough?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, let me tell you that they're a lot better for those people on the minimum wage. Those are 150,000 people in Wales who are celebrating. You say that they ignored the needs of the Welsh public. I'll tell you who ignored the needs of the Welsh public, it was your party, voting with the Tories when it came to putting money into public services in Wales. That's the reality. People have clocked that. People have seen that, actually, the things that they care about, like bringing waiting lists down, could not have been produced or delivered unless we had that additional money. You tried to block that money, and that has been clocked by the public.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, the summer is here, and airports around the UK are getting busier and busier. Over the weekend, over 300 flights set off from Bristol airport. Yet, here in Wales, just 57 flights departed from Cardiff, an airport that the Welsh Labour Government, of course, chose to nationalise back in 2013. Since then, you've sunk the best part of £200 million in taxpayers' money into that loss-making airport. But it's been a dismal failure, with passenger numbers down by 150,000 to just 880,000 last year, while, in Bristol, its nearest competitor, the numbers are soaring high. They increased by over 80 per cent over the same period and are now almost 11 million. Bristol now flies more passengers every single month than Cardiff Airport does in a whole year.

Now, most sensible people, and I appreciate there aren't many sensible people in the Welsh Government, but most sensible people would have cut their losses by now. Yet you have recently announced a further £200 million in yet more bail-outs for the airport. That's hundreds of millions of pounds that could be invested in our national health service instead of this albatross around the taxpayers' neck. So, do you accept that your Welsh Government is no better at running an airport than you are this country, that it's time to stop wasting taxpayers' money on this pet project, and that Cardiff Airport should be sold to somebody who knows how to run airports, rather than leaving it in your hands?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I'm not going to be advocating for Wales to be one of the only countries in Europe without an airport. I think it's really important for us to have an airport. And let me be clear that the subsidy—[Interruption.] I'm going to talk really quietly today. Thank you. The subsidy, as you say, is not insignificant, but if you look at what we get as a nation as a result of being able to host things like European football cups, those in themselves bring in around £200 million. Without an airport, we wouldn't be able to host those kinds of things. I think it is worth mentioning that, because it is important. Of course we want to see more flights and more airlines using the airport. I do hope that the people of Wales will take advantage of the fact that they can fly from Cardiff Airport over the summer.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Of course, this is an airport that was flying people in for major events before it was nationalised, and it was actually making a profit, unlike the situation since 2013. And, First Minister, it's not just airports, is it, that you run badly, because you don't run trains very well either. The Welsh Government-owned Transport for Wales has one of the worst passenger satisfaction ratings in the UK. It has a higher level of cancellations and complaints than other operators, and the worst punctuality record in Britain. And things don't look set to get much better either, do they, because you recently celebrated an announcement by the UK Labour Government of—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I do need to be able to hear the leader of the Conservatives. Can we have some silence, please?

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I could hear the heckling, by the way, that these things aren't true. Take a look at the Transport Focus website, and it will give you all of the information you need. And I'll repeat, just for the benefit of those who couldn't hear, what those statistics say. Transport for Wales—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You don't need to repeat. Just carry on with your question, please.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

It has a higher level of cancellations and complaints than other train operators, and the worst punctuality record in Britain. These are facts, and things don't look set to get much better either. You recently celebrated an announcement by the UK Labour Government of £445 million for rail infrastructure here in Wales over the next 10 years, even though that sum is less than half that which was invested by the previous UK Conservative Government over the previous 10 years. That Government, of course, invested £1.1 billion over a 10-year period, with a promise of at least £1 billion more for the delivery of electrification in north Wales. Do you accept that you have failed dismally to deliver the investment that you promised before the last general election, and that the £455 million amounts to an insult to the people of Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Let me tell you about the bits that we're responsible for, because I think it is probably worth really focusing on—[Interruption.] What? Hang on a minute. You say 'ah' as if it's a problem for me to focus on the things that I'm responsible for. I am responsible for what happens within Wales, and let me tell you what we've done in relation to rail: we have invested £800 million in our rail services, and it has transformed the service. You look at the number of new trains that are on our services, everybody can see them all over the country. It has led to an increase of a fifth in passenger numbers, just in the past year. When it comes to reliability, Transport for Wales has the most reliable service compared to any of the other services within Wales. I'm afraid all of your points were absolute nonsense. I'm more than happy to write to you to set out exactly how successful and how transformational that £800 million investment has been.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Let me remind you, First Minister, what you're responsible for. You're responsible for standing up for the people of Wales. You're responsible for delivering on their priorities, not your own, and you're also responsible for asking for more money for investment in our railways, not the paltry sum that you have settled for and celebrated. Because, let's be honest, transport is not your forte, is it, First Minister? You've got a loss-making nationalised airport in Cardiff, a poorly performing nationalised rail operator, and, on top of that, road projects have been binned, an M4 relief road was cancelled—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You've just walked in, transport Minister. Settle down first, and then you can start to heckle.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I gave the facts earlier on, and I'm sure the Member will check the record. So, transport isn't your forte, is it, First Minister? You've got a loss-making nationalised airport in Cardiff, a poorly performing nationalised rail operator, and, on top of that, road projects have been binned, an M4 relief road was cancelled after wasting £150 million of taxpayers' money. The few new roads that you have actually delivered were years late and massively over budget, and your anti-motorist agenda here in Wales triggered the biggest petition in Welsh history as a result of those unpopular and unnecessary 20 mph default speed limits. Do you accept that, whether it's planes, trains or automobiles, your Government is failing?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'll tell you whose Government failed, it was your Government that failed. You failed catastrophically in the last election, and people are abandoning you now for other parties, and we've all noticed that as well. But let me just be clear—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now need to hear the First Minister. Can we listen with some silence?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Your party promised the electrification of rail to Swansea. Did it happen? It didn't happen. We have been in power here in Wales and we have transformed the system. You look at the Valleys lines; they have been absolutely transformed. You obviously haven't been there for a while. I went on some of them recently and I can tell you that the people of the Valleys are using those trains. They know it's transforming their lives. We've just seen the opening of one of the most complex road-building schemes that we've seen in Europe, and that's transformed the Heads of the Valleys. I'm telling you, when it comes to transport in Wales, I think we've got a very, very proud record. And certainly, when you look at the 484 carriages now at our disposal, many of them built here in Wales, I think we've got a very proud record when it comes to transport.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It's quite something, isn't it, seeing the Conservative Party and Labour battling between themselves over how badly each of them can treat Wales. It's quite a competition.

Llywydd, a thriving Welsh economy depends on giving the next generation the tools they need to flourish and employers the talent pool needed to drive success. So, it's disappointing to learn from the Open University's 2025 business barometer that well over half of Welsh organisations polled are experiencing a skills shortage. That's the highest level in the UK. When she became Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, the First Minister set the following target on skills, and I quote:

'We will eliminate the gap between Wales and the rest of the UK at all qualification levels in ten years, and ensure in future as a minimum, we maintain our performance relative to the rest of the UK.'

So, with that target on track to be missed, will the First Minister join Plaid Cymru in committing to undertake a national skills audit so that we can set about equipping young people with the skills that they need to secure high-paying, high-skilled jobs in the green economy?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I think that it is important that we upskill our workers. Lifelong learning is something that we all need to undertake and take seriously. One of the initiatives that I was proud to introduce was the individual learning account, where what we did was to identify the very things that you're talking about: where are the skills gaps, where are the opportunities for people to learn while they're in current jobs that look like they may be ending soon? We've got to recognise that the world of work is changing and that we need to adapt to it. People can't afford to go and take three years off to do a degree to retrain. You have to allow people the flexibility to learn while they're in another job. So, I think that, following the pattern of those individual learning accounts, recognising where the gaps are, making sure that we respond to that and that we plough money into those things that are turned around very quickly and give people the opportunity to learn quickly and to earn more, is actually where we should be heading.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thanks for the response. I think that we really need to understand at all times what our skills needs are, both for the employer and the potential employee, which is why, as I said, Plaid Cymru is calling for, and would implement in government, a national skills audit.

It's Youth Employment Week this week, but for young people in Wales, the figures are going in the wrong direction under Labour's watch. Figures published last Friday show the youth employment rate in Wales in the year ending March 2025 was 52.5 per cent. That's five and a half percentage points lower than in the previous year. And it's also worrying to learn that only 31 per cent of the companies questioned as part of that business barometer I mentioned said that they have schemes in place to recruit, retain or train workers under 25.

That same business temperature check shows that, while young people are thinking very carefully and taking account of skills challenges as they consider their career pathways, more than half aren’t receiving the necessary guidance or support. So, does the First Minister think that the real-terms cut in this year’s skills budget will make things better or worse?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think what you should look at is the policy in the round. What we have got is a youth guarantee, and that is something that has made a difference. It has been interesting to go and look at people who have undertaken support in relation to that, and that has made a difference. You compare our youth unemployment figures to those of England and they’re in a better place, and I think that is because of that youth guarantee programme. You’ve got to recognise that, actually, everybody starts from different places and there are people, particularly young people who’ve been through COVID, some of them had a tough time and some of them need a lot of support to get anywhere near the jobs market. So, before you get into the really intense technical skills, sometimes you have to rebuild people’s confidence and make sure that they’re getting mental health support and make sure that we stand by them through that difficult period in order to get them ready for the workplace. And that’s what we’ve been trying to do with our youth guarantee, which I think has demonstrated that it is making a difference to young people’s lives in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I’ll answer the question, perhaps, for the First Minister. A real-terms budget cut, though, is likely to make the situation worse. It is the responsibility of Government to put the foundations in place to ensure that not only workers have the right skills for in-demand jobs, but that high-quality jobs are available to highly skilled workers too. Nowhere, perhaps, is this more acutely the case than in Port Talbot and the surrounding area following the devastating job losses in Tata Steel.

Floating offshore wind developments planned for the area are clearly to be welcomed. There’s talk of 5,000 potential jobs. But it’s critical that it’s the local communities around Port Talbot that feel the benefit. So, can the First Minister give a guarantee today, as Plaid Cymru would seek to do leading government, that every former Tata Steel worker whose skills aren’t currently being put to use and who wishes to apply for one of those jobs will be given the necessary support and training to do so?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Let me be clear on what you asked before: the cuts would’ve been much greater if you’d had your way and the budget hadn’t gone through. I just think it’s probably worth pointing that out.

Let me just come to the issue of floating offshore wind, because I do think that this is a real opportunity for Wales, the fact that what we’ve seen now is two developers selected to make those changes and those developments off the coast of Wales. We were already preparing for this with the offshore task and finish group on wind. We’ve got a very comprehensive and clear framework for delivery, including when it comes to skills.

We are already engaging with the industrial strategy, which obviously has renewable energy as part of its remit, to make sure—and this is a conversation we’ve already had with the UK Government—that we’re lining up the industrial strategy, the priorities of the Welsh Government and where the intersection comes with our responsibilities. Skills, of course, are absolutely critical in that. And that’s why, already, those conversations are very thorough, not just with colleges in those areas, but also to make sure, because there are going to be a lot of opportunities for people across Wales to upskill and to get those developments.

Let me be clear that there is a huge amount of money that has gone into supporting people who’ve been affected by Tata. There is plenty of support there when it comes to allowing people the opportunity to reskill. So, I’ll go and make sure, before I make a commitment here, that there is an opportunity for everybody to reskill. I’m fairly confident, with the amount of money going in there, that that is an assurance we can give.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

3. How does the Welsh Government ensure that its priorities reflect the priorities of the people of Wales? OQ63010

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

This Welsh Labour Government is focused on delivery, and I mean real, visible change in people’s lives. We’ve slashed the longest NHS waits by 86 per cent since the pandemic peak. We’ve built record numbers of social homes. We’ve invested £600 million supporting 40,000 jobs and we’ve launched a brand-new fleet of modern trains to drive forward our metro vision. People in Wales told us that they wanted better health, more jobs, more homes and better transport. So, that's what we are delivering—not slogans, not stunts, but substance.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

People in Wales, First Minister, don't want the longest NHS waiting lists anywhere in the UK. They don't want the worst educational outcomes anywhere in the UK. And they don't want the weakest economy in the UK. But that is the record of your Labour Government and your term as First Minister.

Last week I asked followers across my social media what they wanted to ask you if they could ask you anything at all. The one topic that came up above all others was you and your party's plan to spend £120 million on more politicians in this Senedd. I hear the groans from the Labour Members, but this is what real people are saying. It would be helpful if they were in touch with them sometimes.

Now, we know, don't we, that your record—. You could have spent that money fixing those things. You could have spent that money on the NHS, on our education, on our economy, but you chose not to. Talk about warped priorities. But of course, you haven't done that alone. You've been aided and abetted by your pals in Plaid Cymru, the Lib Dems and, yes, Reform too, who all seem to support these dangerous plans.

How can you honestly look people across Wales in the eye and say that you are in touch with their priorities, when you want to spend £120 million on more politicians? Or will you copy the Welsh Conservatives' policy, as the only party going into the next election promising to scrap these plans?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I hope you took the opportunity to tell your constituents how, currently, this country is the least well represented at this level of government. We have got 60 Members here, compared to 90 in Northern Ireland, which has a population that's much smaller than ours, and 120 or so in Scotland. Since this place was established, obviously, there's been additional legislative and tax competence, which needs to be accounted for. I think that it's probably worth saying that a commitment to Senedd reform was an explicit part of the manifestos of Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Lib Dems and of Labour in the Senedd elections. So, there's actually a democratic mandate here as well.

I do think that it's important that we set this in context. We are talking about less than 0.1 per cent of the Welsh budget. You seem to package it all together and do it over a massive long number of years. I think that the amount—and the Llywydd will correct me if I'm wrong—. I think that it's about £6 million or so that we're talking about, spent on this place in the context of a budget of £26 billion. So, I just think a little bit of perspective is needed on this, and actually, it's probably worth underlining that people like me are going to be scrutinised more. I think that that's a good thing. I think that we should be kept on our toes, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that when we get well scrutinised, actually, you can save money.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

You just said that your priority was to deliver real, visible change to the lives of people, and I always remember that eradicating child poverty wasn't among the priorities that you set out once you became First Minister. That was shocking to me and very disappointing.

Leaders not only need to respond to the loudest voices in setting their priorities, but also to listen to the most vulnerable in our society, to understand their situation and what it means for our society and for our nation. The eradication of child poverty in Wales should be at the top of the prioritisation list of the Government, but after two decades of Labour control in Wales, and red, orange and blue Governments in Westminster, not enough progress has been made.

Now that you are part of what you are calling a partnership in power with the Keir Starmer Government, I would like you to inform the Senedd why you are avoiding putting in place measurable targets in your child poverty strategy to drive the action and progress that we need to see. And why you have decided not to support the calls made by Plaid Cymru to introduce a direct child payment, which is what we are seeing having a real impact in Scotland in reducing child poverty levels.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I think we're doing quite a lot in relation to addressing child poverty. We have spent about £7 billion over the course of the past 10 years or so in trying to support people from the poorest households. You'll be aware that there is £40 million now being spent on universal free school meals in primary schools. That is saving people about £800 a year. That's not an insignificant amount of money that people now have in their pockets to support their children. We're trying to make school uniforms more affordable. You'll know that the school essentials grant opened just last week, and I'd encourage you all to let your constituents know that that is an opportunity for people to get that support that they need. It's £125, and £200 if you're going into year 7. And on top of that, over the summer, we will be supplying a significant sum, £6.8 million, to continue to grow our food and fun school holiday enrichment programme. That takes the pressure off families, and that is what we're trying to do in terms of making sure that children, obviously, don't suffer. We'll step in where we can, obviously. We've been clear, in relation to the two-child benefit cap, that we would like to see a change there, but this is an area that is the responsibility of the UK Government.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

First Minister, I spent Saturday morning at a community celebration marking the Theatr Clwyd redevelopment—a transformation made possible in no small part thanks to significant investment from the Welsh Labour Government. Later that afternoon, I was chatting to residents in Mold. They recognised and very much welcomed that investment. But in addition, in the course of our conversation, what came to the fore was that the things that really matter are those things that impact our day-to-day lives—things like safer streets, routes to schools and potholes. I was really pleased that I was able to share with them about the Wales-wide programme, an additional £25 million, to improve our roads, including, very recently, the A494 in Mold, the Mold bypass. One thousand four hundred potholes were fixed in three days. So, First Minister, do you agree with me that this is Welsh Labour working in partnership, investing in my constituency, connecting our communities, putting people's priorities into practice and making a difference?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I think it's wonderful that people in your constituency have noticed the difference that we are making. I'm particularly pleased that, actually, we have been able to support the arts sector in Wales. We've spent £23 million on Theatr Clwyd, and I'm really happy that what we're going to see is a transformed situation for what is a critical arts hub in north Wales.

But when you talk about potholes, I think it's worth just underlining that 1,400 potholes were fixed or prevented in Mold. I was very pleased to be with you to go and work the Pothole Pro machine, to demonstrate, actually, what a difference it's making and how local government is taking this partnership very seriously, making sure that people actually have the opportunity to travel on safer streets.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, First Minister. I just want to come back to what I think is one of the most shameful aspects of the situation here in Wales, which is children living in poverty. I want to link that with health inequalities in terms of our children. They are interlinked. From the statistics from April 2025, we know that there were 56,000 children waiting for treatment on the NHS. Of this, 679 had been waiting two years or more. If you think about the link between child poverty and how this affects our children's health, we are really in a quite shameful position here in Wales.

One of the things that we've advocated for and that many of us in this Siambr have spoken about is having a Minister dedicated to looking at all of the issues affecting our children. So, will you commit, either now or if you're in a position to do that in the future, to having a Minister specifically for babies, children and young people? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. We do take the issue of child poverty very seriously, and we understand the link between poverty and health. That's why I think the work that we've seen already, in particular in the Aneurin Bevan health board, where they have done some pioneering work in relation to this, is really important. I think it's probably worth underlining that we do have a Minister for children. Her name is Dawn Bowden and she does a terrific job.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

4. How will the Welsh Government ensure that the connectivity benefits of the South Wales Metro for the Caerphilly constituency are fully realised? OQ63009

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Welsh Labour Government is delivering the biggest investment in south Wales transport in a generation: over £1 billion in rail transformation, over £800 million in new, accessible, modern trains, and Caerphilly is right at the heart of it.

Train frequency is up 50 per cent between Caerphilly and Cardiff. Pay-as-you-go ticketing is live, electrification of the upper Rhymney line is under way and new electric trains are rolling out. Darren, I hope you're listening. This is more than a transport upgrade. It's economic renewal. It's better jobs, greener commutes and stronger local connections.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Well, she's just answered my question, but for the sake of Darren Millar, let's remember the stinky, squeaky Pacer trains that ran on the core Valleys lines between the 1970s and the last decade. The transformation is incredible, and it's down to the Welsh Government and it's down to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. And I'd also add a fact here: the Office of Rail and Road, an independent body, says that Transport for Wales has the highest increase in rail services in the UK—we've seen that on the tracks—and the third biggest improvement in punctuality. Those are the facts, and we are seeing incredible progress.

One thing I know the Welsh Government doesn't do, and I know the First Minister doesn't do, is just rest on their laurels. They move forward, and the moving forward will be an integrated transport service across Wales, with bus services and integrated ticketing, and that's the next stage. I'm going to be doing a piece of work for the Cabinet Secretary on maximising the benefits of the metro. So, will the First Minister agree that that process, that progress, needs to happen and will happen on her watch?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I'm really proud of what's been changed during the course of the past 10 years, really, and I'd like to pay tribute to all of the transport Ministers who've led over that period of time, because it is quite difficult when you're under the kind of pressure that we're under in Government to hold your nerve on these really big transport projects, and now we're seeing that work come to fruition. It was very brave, I think, of the Welsh Government to stand that course, and people around Wales are clocking the difference.

But you're quite right, the next chapter will be about bus infrastructure and making sure that we are able to use the new powers in relation to the bus law in order to make sure that we can see much better integration so that we can gauge community, employer and service provider awareness of the opportunities that are arising from new integrated services. I think it's important that we examine the scope for collaborative actions to enhance those connectivities, and I hope you'll be involved in that work.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

First Minister, as part of the south Wales metro project, we know that electric tram trains are being rolled out onto the network. There have indeed been quite a few significant concerns raised to me about the lack of toilets for passengers on these trains—an issue that has been raised quite a few times, as I just said earlier. The lack of toilets has caused a particular concern amongst elderly residents and those with medical conditions. Obviously, we want the south Wales metro to bring big benefits to the whole area, although, as always, the proof will indeed be in the pudding. But we don't want to see certain groups of people put off from using this public transport system due to a lack of toilets. So, has the Welsh Government consulted with the disabled and older people groups and charities over these new trains? If so, can you please provide us with a brief overview? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I know that some of our trains have toilets and some of them don't, so that is something. But I think what's important is to recognise that there are new stations and there are new opportunities for people to use facilities before they get on the trains. I understand that that's not ideal for some passengers, but on many of the new trains there are facilities.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

5. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s commitment to ensure that automatic voter registration arrangements are implemented in time for the next Senedd election? OQ62981

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We're proud to be the first Government in the UK to trial automatic voter registration. Pilots are taking place in four local authorities at the moment, and the lessons learned will steer the process of introducing this across Wales as soon as practical.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The former Counsel General who led on the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill was clear and unequivocal throughout that process that the automatic registration would be in place by the Senedd election. For example, he told the Local Government and Housing Committee:

‘the 2026 elections will be quite different, because you'll have an automatic register’.

Does that commitment still stand, and does the First Minister agree that the best way to respond to rising levels of political disaffection and alienation, which is fuelling the rise of the populist right, is not less participation but more, particularly amongst those groups like young people who will benefit the most from automatic voter registration?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks for that. The Electoral Commission have calculated that as many as 400,000 are either missing from the electoral register or incorrectly registered, which is why the Welsh Labour Government was determined to drive this pilot programme forward. The regulations passed by the Senedd mean that the pilots run until the end of September, and after that the Electoral Commission is going to be evaluating them by December. I think we've got to be realistic and practical about what that means in practice, because there will be quite a lot of work to be done before there's an ability to roll them out nationally. So, I think it is important to manage expectations around the ability to roll out those automatic registrations in time for the next election. I think there are many hurdles to overcome. There will be a need for us and local authorities to properly consider the Electoral Commission's evaluation. There'll be a need to bring forward necessary secondary legislation. We'll need to think carefully about applying the Gould principle. And there'll be a need to make changes to software systems. All of those things are quite complicated, and I think that it's going to be a tall order to ask within about three months. Local authorities have made it clear that they think that might be very difficult, and, obviously, the Electoral Commission will want to take their time to make sure that they get it right.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

From the outset, concerns were raised about automatic voter registration for Senedd and local elections that they could lead to voters incorrectly assuming they're registered to vote in all elections and cause them to miss out on voting, and could increase the risk of people being registered in two places, including people who move home and students away at university voting twice. You referred to the assessment in the pilot areas. What consideration is being given in that assessment to those risks, and whether they are proving to be real risks or not?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I want to tell the Senedd how grateful I am to the local authorities of Carmarthenshire, Gwynedd, Newport and Powys for hosting the pilots. I know a huge amount of learning has been undertaken by the councils who are involved in that.

I think lots of people are watching this with interest. I think there are lots of lessons to be learned. One of them, for example, is the fact that some people may not want their information to be made public. So, if there's automatic registration, how do you interact with people to say, 'Right, we've automatically registered you, but do you want to be on the public register or the non-public register?' So, there are lots of technical things like that. So, those are the kinds of privacy issues that make the whole thing slightly more complicated; it's not a straightforward thing to switch this on.

I'm sure we'd all be very keen to see—. If it looks like we are unable to roll this out in time for the next Senedd election, then there will be cohorts of people that we could maybe focus on—so, really doing a big push in particular on 16 and 17-year-olds who'll have a first chance to vote. I think we really need to make sure that we drive up participation amongst those groups and also amongst black, Asian and ethnic minority communities.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

6. How is the Welsh Government reducing child poverty in Rhondda? OQ62994

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Welsh Labour Government is taking action, not making excuses, on child poverty. Since 2022, we’ve invested over £7 billion to support families, including in the Rhondda. We’re the first nation in the UK to roll out universal free primary school meals. We’ve expanded Flying Start childcare to cover more two-year-olds. We’re investing £100 million a year in high-quality childcare, helping parents into work and boosting children’s life chances. In Rhondda Cynon Taf alone, more than £330,000 has been awarded through our child poverty innovation fund this year, and we’ve delivered over £33 million in extra income to those who need it most, thanks to our advice services.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Thank you for that answer. Too many children in Rhondda are living in poverty. Expanding Flying Start childcare to more two-year-olds, free school meals for all primary school children, increasing education maintenance allowance payments and the pupil development grant have all made a positive difference, but there are still families in desperate need of support, so we can't rest there. Does the Welsh Government have plans to go further, like making Flying Start available in more areas? Can you please work with local councils to look again at free home-to-school transport, so no child misses out on school just because of where they live?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much, and I think the early years integration transformation programme that RCT piloted is a great example of what needs to be done. It's a needs-based delivery model across the whole local authority. What it does is create a single front door to deliver the right support at the right time, to make sure, for example, that there's enhanced health visiting interventions, addressing one of the points that Jane Dodds made earlier, in terms of that link between health and low incomes in families with children.

The programme's now come to an end, and they're now embedding the learning and good practice as a core part of the business activity, and I know they're also investing an extra £2 million when it comes to Flying Start in childcare in Rhondda. So, that means around 350 more children will be able to get access. The good news is that that can be delivered, through the outreach element of the programme, to high-need children and families living outside of the Flying Start areas.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

7. Will the First Minister provide an update on the North Wales growth deal? OQ62978

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Welsh Labour Government is determined to unlock north Wales’s full potential, driving investment, innovation and sustainable growth across the region. Thanks to the growth deal, Wrexham University’s new engineering centre is nearing completion, and we’re backing clean energy projects like tidal and hydrogen that will power the region for decades to come.

Yes, delivery absolutely needs to speed up, and we’re on it. We’ve brought in commercial experts, launched a new project pipeline, and we're pushing for real economic results. We’re holding every partner—public and private—to account, to deliver the jobs, investment and opportunities that the region deserves.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, First Minister. I was pleased to be involved in the early stages of the growth deal, and I was pleased to see Governments in both Westminster and here in Cardiff bay working together to see investment in the region.

You'll know, at the time, there was a promise of a total of around £1 billion-worth of investment, both from public and private sector investment, and a promise of up to 4,000 jobs in the region. You'll also be aware, First Minister, that, just in recent weeks, the Senedd's Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee highlighted the fact that only 35 jobs have been created in over five years of the growth deal being in place. Now, that is a very, very poor record, to say the least, of how the growth deal is going here in Wales. I'm not dismissing the positive comments that you've made, but what we're not seeing is the reality of that on the ground. It's letting people down in north Wales, an area that is crying out for improvement in the economy and crying out for those all-important jobs as well. Of course, the Welsh Government has a role to play in ensuring this growth deal is delivered and those promises are kept. So, how are you going to ensure that north Wales is treated as a priority and that we see delivery of these jobs and the growth that we need in the region?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Because you were involved at the start, Sam, you'll be aware of what the structure looked like at the start and what some of the propositions were around that, including, for example, the Trawsfynydd nuclear project, which was going to make up about 40 per cent of the original portfolio value. So, once that went, obviously there was a major hole there. Listen, I think we've got to accept the fact that it's been very disappointing, the pace that has been associated with the north Wales growth deal. That's why, as a Government, we are really trying to drive the corporate joint committee that is responsible for delivering on this.

I was really pleased recently to go and visit the Enterprise, Engineering and Optics Centre in Wrexham, which is nearing completion. Now, that's an example of something that has been delivered, but we need to see a lot more of that in future. So, I do hope that local authorities will drive that delivery, but also we need to see the private sector stepping up, if they're serious about really engaging in what is a real opportunity, I think, for north Wales growth.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

8. What discussions has the First Minister had with Cardiff Council on their proposed sale of Mansion House? OQ63003

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cardiff Council is democratically elected and accountable to their residents, not to Ministers or Senedd Members playing politics. Mansion House is a grade II listed building. That means it's protected by law, whatever its ownership. Cardiff Council has consulted the public and followed due process. Let's also not forget that local authorities across the UK are under pressure because of a decade of Tory cuts. Cardiff is making responsible decisions to protect front-line services and I respect them for that. This Welsh Labour Government respects local democracy. We don't micromanage councils doing their job.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, First Minister. Despite undergoing significant renovation in the 1990s, Cardiff Council now cites underuse and a maintenance backlog as the justification for disposing of Mansion House. Residents are concerned by the potential loss of this historic building for the city, which served as the official residence of Cardiff's lord mayors, and has hosted notable figures such as King George V, Winston Churchill, Nelson Mandela, and many people see this move as another example of the council's disregard for the city's cultural and civic heritage. This is not without precedent. The grade II St David's Hall was similarly neglected, then deemed too costly to repair and put up for sale. Such actions raise serious concerns about the council's long-term commitment to not only preserving Cardiff's unique culture and civic identity, but how it manages the public assets that it looks after. Do you agree that Mansion House is a vital civic asset, and that, instead of selling it, the council, which still sits on substantial financial reserves, should present a clear plan to repurpose and preserve it for future generations? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, this is a matter for Cardiff Council. I've had no direct discussions, and I trust Cardiff Council to make informed, sensible decisions on the management of their cultural assets and their properties.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the First Minister. A point of order by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much. At the beginning of the session, I mentioned CND Cymru and Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg in my contribution. I'm a member of both of those, and chair of CND Cymru. Thank you very much.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you very much for that.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 2 is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. The time allocated to the Stage 3 debate on the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill has been reduced. Business for the next three weeks is shown in the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Trefnydd, can I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding epilepsy services? As you know, Epilepsy Action Cymru recently launched their 'Seizing Change' report here at the Senedd. Now, the report makes it very clear that every health board in Wales is failing to meet waiting time guidelines for treatment after a first seizure, and, in the case of my own local health board, Hywel Dda University Health Board, some patients are waiting up to 36 weeks to be seen, the longest waiting time on record.

Now, Trefnydd, I'm very concerned about these waiting times, and I'm also very concerned that the number of people living with epilepsy in Wales is growing, and yet there is an extreme shortage of neurologists, especially those with a specialist knowledge in epilepsy, and epilepsy specialist nurses as well here in Wales. Therefore, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement on epilepsy services, so that we can understand what the Welsh Government is doing to address the serious issues highlighted in the 'Seizing Change' report.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Paul Davies, and Epilepsy Action is a long-standing organisation, a respected organisation. Of course, you have drawn attention to epilepsy services, and of course there are pathways, and there's been long-term commitment to those pathways, which, of course, are often multiprofessional. So, you've raised this issue, and I'm sure it also could form a question to the Cabinet Secretary when he responds in his oral Senedd questions.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Trefnydd, I'd like to raise an issue with you that a number of members of my group have asked me to do, namely the delay in terms of receiving responses from a number of Ministers to letters, and also delays in receiving responses to written questions. I don't know whether you're aware of whether there's any backlog within specific departments, but I would be grateful if you could raise this with other members of the Government to ensure that responses are received promptly.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan, and, obviously, we take very seriously the need to be efficient in our responses, and those clear timelines as well in terms of responses to both letters and to written questions. But also, of course—and I will look at the record for this—we get an enormous amount of questions, letters, and written questions as well, which Ministers and our officials have to handle. But we are obviously wanting to provide the best possible service to our Members across the Senedd.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I want to ask for two statements. They’re both on animal welfare. First, on microchipping cats. In England, all cat owners should now have their pet microchipped. Owners must ensure their cat is microchipped before they reach the age of 20 weeks, with their contact details stored and kept up to date in an approved pet microchipping database. In England, the introduction of mandatory microchipping makes it easier for lost or stray cats to be reunited with their owners and returned home safely. Microchipping is already compulsory for dogs in Wales, and has proved to be the most effective method for identifying lost pets. Can we have a Government statement on when they’re going to implement the microchipping of cats in Wales?

Secondly, on hedgehogs. What is the Government doing to raise awareness of the practical steps we can take to reverse the decline of hedgehogs in the wild, improve their welfare, and safeguard their future? We know that to promote good life and lengthy life in our hedgehogs, we need to promote the offering of good quality, meaty hedgehog food, meaty cat or dog food, or dried cat biscuits, and the provision of water. But hedgehogs are an animal that is under threat. Can the Government make a statement on what they’re going to do to try and protect what is an iconic Welsh species?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Mike Hedges, and thank you for drawing our attention to this matter.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for asking, first of all, about microchipping cats. It’s encouraged. It’s good practice for all responsible owners to get their cats microchipped. And, according to a Cats Protection report published last year, 74 per cent of cats in Wales are microchipped. But it’s important in terms of responsibilities, and our animal welfare plan for Wales includes an action to consider extending compulsory microchipping to include cats. Obviously, this would be subject to consultation, but I’m glad you’ve raised it here today. We must get this right before any mandatory microchipping takes place, and make sure that we have fully consulted.

Of course, hedgehogs are so important. The Welsh Government has a range of initiatives to help grow the hedgehog population in Wales. When did we last see a hedgehog? Sadly, a long time ago, as far as I’m concerned. Woodlands are the favoured habitat for hedgehog breeding, and the Welsh Government has several tree planting initiatives, as you know, that will increase habitat for hedgehogs as the new trees mature. And the sustainable farming scheme will provide for the restoration of hedges to a condition that favours all wildlife, including hedgehogs. The SFS will also provide for farmers to plant trees, which, in groups and small woods, can provide the ideal habitat for hedgehogs to breed and develop to adulthood.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Business Minister, can I please request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport about the up and coming bus Bill? I have spoken with many bus operators and industry experts across my region about the looming Bill to gauge their views on it. The general consensus is that, whilst many support the Bill’s aims, there is a concern that it will simply not be achieved. There have been assurances made that the SME bus operators and municipal operators will be included and protected, but there is a lack of detail within the Bill when it comes to legal and commercial mechanisms to ensure that this actually happens.

There are concerns that the regulatory impact assessment for the Bill has underestimated key costs and risks, as it omits important things like the recent increases in salary and national insurance costs. Affordability is also of great concern to myself and many others. In Manchester, for example, where similar bus reforms have been made, there is a substantial financial shortfall of around £250 million annually, between operational costs and fare revenues. Given the Welsh Government is taking on all financial risk through this piece of work, it will be left ultimately to the taxpayer to foot the Bill. So, do we have that money lying around to plug the gap every year? That’s my question. These are just some of the few potential issues, but I will save the rest for another day. Therefore, a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport addressing these points would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Natasha Asghar. Many, many people in Wales, I know, are welcoming the introduction of the bus Bill. I believe you and your colleagues have also welcomed the potential, through the bus Bill, to have an integrated bus service across Wales. Of course, I remember the horrors of deregulation of our buses back in the 1980s, which were instigated by a previous Conservative Government. Ever since then, buses have been all over the place in terms of frequency, with deregulation causing a great deal of difficulty for local authorities in terms of strategic management, but also for passengers, most importantly. There are opportunities to raise these questions, as I know you will, and your colleagues will, during the scrutiny of the bus Bill.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I think we were all very pleased that a representative from the Jo Cox Civility Commission came to speak to the women's caucus recently about the levels of abuse directed at female politicians, especially online. Of course, the women's caucus consists of Members from all parties here, chaired by Joyce Watson. So, going forward to the election next year, could the Cabinet Secretary confirm if the Welsh Government has approved the recommendation that safety-related costs will be exempt from election expenses for next year's Senedd election?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Julie Morgan. It was really very much welcomed that we had engagement from the Jo Cox Foundation. Hannah Phillips highlighted the recommendations from the Jo Cox Civility Commission. Of course, the Welsh Government was very pleased to respond positively to the recommendation that safety-related expenses should be exempt. I'm very pleased that, in fact, this regulation went through last Tuesday. I'm not sure how many colleagues across the Chamber were aware of that, but it did go through last Tuesday, through the Welsh Government regulations. And I think it's encompassed in the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025, the conduct Order that's being debated later on this afternoon. So, that is a real step forward.

Can I also thank Joyce Watson and all colleagues across the Chamber who attended the women's caucus? Indeed, last week, I was able to meet with the political parties panel, which is organised by the Electoral Commission. All parties here were represented by your general secretaries or other members of your party units, and we had a robust discussion about how we can protect not just, of course, our existing colleagues and politicians from abuse and intimidation, but also leading up to the elections in May 2026. I look forward to reporting back to the women's caucus on those discussions.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I'm calling for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for finance on business rates in Wales, as well as the criteria for different categories in terms of business types and rate relief. This comes after the Underhill Hub, a flagship community asset in Mumbles in my region, has been forced to close from this coming Saturday due to what they call 'unsustainable financial burdens'. The community hub serves as a home base for several organisations in Mumbles, including Mumbles Rangers Football Club, Mumbles Rugby Football Club, and Swansea Cricket Club. It's owned by a charity, Mumbles Community Association, yet is run by the Underhill Management Company. That is a private limited company, albeit it runs it on behalf of Mumbles Community Association.

Now, they had hoped that there would be charitable rate relief applied, but the Valuation Office Agency decided in August 2024 that that would not apply, and they've now been left with business rates totalling £93,000 over two years, which is a lot, especially for a community hub trying to provide for and give back to local residents. It's also worth noting, obviously, Trefnydd, as an aside, that the Welsh Conservatives plan to scrap business rates altogether for small businesses after the next election. But a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for finance on what support is in place for local community hubs, as well as what consideration he would give to ensuring hubs such as the Underhill Hub in Mumbles are eligible for charity relief, regardless of who operates them, would be appreciated.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question, Tom Giffard. The Welsh Government provides a very favourable business rates regime. Clearly, this is an example of a, I'm sure, very well-founded community organisation that hasn't fit the eligibility in terms of charitable status. But there's no question that advice and guidance is always available to important community/small businesses of that kind.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Trefnydd, there is growing evidence of the increased prevalence and impact of heatwaves. In recent years, the UK, and very much Wales included, has experienced unprecedented temperatures. Spring 2025 was officially the hottest on record, and devastating wildfires swept through parts of England. This is now placing immense pressure on emergency services. Culturally and historically, we are simply not used to this kind of extreme weather. By 10 April this year, the total area of land in the UK burnt by wildfires had already exceeded the yearly total for any of the previous 10 years.

In London, in 2022, wildfires were particularly prevalent, and the London Fire Brigade then undertook significant reforms to improve preparedness. These included the introduction of wildfire tactical advisers, enhanced and expanded training, and increased investment in specialist equipment. Given the increasingly dry, hot and windy conditions that are perfect for wildfires, could we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary outlining what steps are being taken to support emergency services in Wales, both in terms of resources and readiness, as we face a future of intensifying climate-related emergencies?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, John Griffiths, for this very important and topical question, when we look at the impact of rising temperatures due to climate change, leading, as you have drawn attention to, particularly to wildfires. I think this is something where we do and we must recognise those long-established collaborative arrangements between the fire and rescue service and other partners. It's crucial that they have the responsibility with the strategic all-Wales wildfire board and Operation Dawns Glaw for steering tactical and operational intelligence. Of course, the risk of wildfire remains heavily dependent on the weather and response to incidents, but we have been reassured that the service and partners undertake a wide range of activities to reduce the risk of wildfires breaking out, including deterrents and diversion programmes, engagement with landowners, and also being able to respond to a very high volume of wildfires, as it proved once again during the very dry spring of this year, and indeed that continues into the summer months.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from this Welsh Government for support for our Ukrainian friends who have come to Wales in devastating circumstances, following Russia's illegal invasion. I know we all agree that accepting people from Ukraine was absolutely the right thing to do. Following my recent visit to Ukraine, with other Members of the Senedd, I met some of those Ukrainians who are staying in Monmouthshire. I heard heartbreaking stories, and stories of many Ukrainians who want to return home when it's safe to do so, but no-one knows when that will be. The uncertainty of that is excruciating for them, because although they're very grateful that they've been made to feel safe, it's now three years on, and they need and deserve a lot more than that. There was a lady who was an ophthalmologist who wants to transfer her skills to our NHS, but there's no support for her to do so. There's another lady who wants to open a hairdresser's in Abergavenny, but she's unsure how long she'll stay here as visas are up soon. Many of these feel stuck in limbo, unsure how long they'll be able to stay here before they go back, and unsure how to transfer the skills into our economy. Indeed, many of them are unsure if their children will be uprooted before they finish their education. And there were concerns amongst the young children I spoke to about losing the language, the culture, and that sort of thing. So, I'd really appreciate your Government outlining what are the next steps in helping these Ukrainians now in Wales, and how you're working with the UK Government, local authorities and public services, particularly on visa extensions. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch, Laura Anne Jones. Thank you for your engagement, in joining that cross-party group that went to Ukraine, and thank you for your support in raising this issue. I think it's worth reminding the Senedd that Wales has welcomed over 8,000 Ukrainians to the UK since the invasion back in February 2022, and that did include 3,300 under our supersponsor route and over 4,600 to the Homes for Ukraine household sponsors. And we have to thank the people of Wales for offering their hearts and their homes, their incredible kindness, their commitments as hosts, and also our Ukrainian guests have shown us the real benefits of migration. So, there are fewer, of course, arriving—fewer Ukrainians now arriving in Wales—but we will always ensure that people seeking sanctuary in Wales are welcomed and supported from day 1 of their arrival.

So, now we are working with the UK Government, as you requested, looking at the visas issues. The Ukraine permission extension visas have come into effect and are being applied for. And we are looking, of course, at how we can ensure people—our Ukrainians—are aware of their rights and entitlements, their rights to work and live in the UK, whilst their applications are in progress. I think this is something where we are working with the UK Government to ensure that we can continue our welcome support to our Ukrainian friends and refugees.

I am aware that there is another visit to Ukraine, which is being undertaken by Mick Antoniw and Alun Davies next week. I am sure that they are taking all-important medical equipment, as they do, to Ukraine, and I think we would want to wish them well for their visit and journey next week.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on school provision across Bridgend. You may be aware of Bridgend County Borough Council's announcement around delays over the replacement school site for Ysgol Gymraeg Bro Ogwr at Ffordd Cadfan. This is the latest in a long line of similar delays. Other council capital investments in Kenfig Hill's Mynydd Cynffig Primary School, as well as Heronsbridge School, are the most recent casualties of budget cuts. I am currently concerned that the 525 pupil places and 90 full-time nursery slots in Brackla won't be available until 2027-28 at the earliest. Trefnydd, as a Welsh-speaking school, Ysgol Gymraeg Bro Ogwr is needed now. Heronsbridge, a pioneer in special education, is an irreplaceable institution within our local education provision. This, on the top of the closure of the region's private schools, puts a lot of strain on local provision. Therefore, I am requesting a statement today to address a backlog of school building plaguing planned school sites within the Bridgend education authority. Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Altaf Hussain. Of course, these are matters for Bridgend County Borough Council. But I think we can be very proud in Wales of the millions, multimillions, we have spent on transforming our schools and school buildings throughout all the period of austerity. And, of course, we have given a very favourable settlement to local authorities for this financial year, particularly focusing on education and schools. But, of course, Lynne Neagle, the Cabinet Secretary for Education, will be answering questions next week, and you may wish to raise this with her at that time.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I call for a single Welsh Government statement on suicide prevention. The male suicide rate is almost three times higher than for females, and I was pleased to speak at last Friday's launch of the Wales suicide prevention programme, developed in partnership between the Construction Industry Training Board Wales and NHS Wales, designed for males in the construction industry in Wales, held in Oakenholt, Flint. According to the Office for National Statistics, male construction workers are nearly four times more likely to die by suicide than the national average. As I said, these are not isolated incidents; they're the result of systemic pressures, long hours, job insecurity, physical exhaustion and a workplace culture that too often discourages emotional openness. And let us not forget the impact of these deaths. Each suicide affects families, friends, colleagues and communities. The ripple effects are profound and long lasting. The cost is not just emotional, it is social, economic and moral. I therefore call for a Welsh Government statement detailing how the Welsh Government will help to spread the word of this programme to the industry, and particularly to small and medium-sized companies.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, for drawing attention to that all-important Wales suicide prevention event in north Wales. I particularly welcome the involvement of the construction industry in this and drawing attention to this in terms of the impact and the vulnerability of, particularly, men in the industry. I know that the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being will be very supportive of that initiative and, indeed, it's very much at the heart of the consultation and what is being taken forward in terms of the mental health strategy, including the suicide prevention elements of that strategy.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to call for a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the importation of food produce treated with chemical pesticides that are controlled or banned in the UK. There are concerns that have been brought to my attention by farmers in north Wales and across the country regarding the importation of food treated with substances that are banned here in the UK and Europe on environmental and health grounds, namely chlorothalonil. This substance, which was banned in 2020 due to serious impacts on biodiversity and insect reproduction, continues to appear in imported produce, despite our own farmers being prohibited from using it. This creates an unacceptable double standard, which puts Welsh farmers at a competitive disadvantage, with our own farmers rightly held to high environmental and safety standards, yet they're being undercut by imports from countries with weaker regulations. So, I'd like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on what work the Welsh Government is doing to address this issue and to ensure that Welsh farmers are not being unfairly penalised for following the rules.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Gareth Davies. Well, you'll know that the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs meets regularly with farmers and the farming unions, so I would like you to share the evidence that you've had from the farmers who have brought this to your attention in terms of the unacceptable imports of food treated with such a chemical substance.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government: The Building Safety (Wales) Bill

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government on the Building Safety (Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Grenfell Tower tragedy is a poignant and devastating reminder of the importance and necessity of getting building safety right. I know that the thoughts of all of us in this Chamber remain with those who lost their lives as well as their families and loved ones. It is imperative that we learn from these events and act to ensure that such loss of life never happens again.

The comprehensive findings of the Grenfell Tower inquiry have laid bare the systematic failures across industry, governance and regulation that contributed to this tragedy. Yesterday, we published the Welsh Government’s formal response to the inquiry’s phase 2 report, accepting, at least in principle, all the recommendations within scope of our responsibilities. Our response also sets out the actions we’re taking to implement those recommendations. I will provide Members with an update on progress before the end of this Senedd term.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

At the heart of our response is a commitment to put residents first. A key component of that is the occupation of multi-occupied residential buildings. When we talk about multi-occupied residential buildings, what we're talking about is people's homes. These are places where people should feel safe and protected. The risks are significant in all multi-occupied buildings, not just tall ones. Fires also occur in smaller buildings occupied by multiple households. On some measures, these are the most hazardous of all. The situation is far worsened if buildings are not properly maintained, if risks are not identified and managed, if the concerns of residents are overlooked or belittled, and if no-one is being held accountable. Dirprwy Lywydd, these are some of the important lessons from Grenfell.

Learning these lessons, righting these wrongs, is absolutely necessary to protect individuals and families in Wales. The findings of Dame Judith Hackitt's review, of our own building safety expert group, and our White Paper, along with extensive engagement with stakeholders, have laid the foundations for the landmark Bill that I'm pleased was laid before the Senedd yesterday. Its first principle is safety and protecting people. Dirprwy Lywydd, while we can never eliminate all risks, we can significantly enhance safety by identifying the risks that can cause fires and allow them to spread. By ensuring that risks are properly managed, we make people safer, and feel safer, at home. This begins with professional, thorough fire risk assessment of each building. As the Grenfell Tower inquiry recognised, it is unacceptable that anyone can do this regardless of their knowledge or experience. Shoddy or amateurish assessments can put everyone in the building at serious risk, and our Bill addresses this by requiring that only demonstrably competent persons conduct these assessments, with criminal penalties for those who don't comply.

A second principle is accountability. We want to end any confusion about who is answerable for managing building safety risks. We will ensure that those responsible for buildings are held to account, in law, for their safety. So, the Bill defines who is accountable for assessing and managing risks in regulated buildings. A third principle is resident voice. Residents are fundamental to the proposals I'm bringing forward, and their experiences and concerns must be heard and addressed. We will empower residents with clear routes of redress and a stronger voice in matters that affect their homes. We've listened carefully to residents in the development of our proposals. They have told us that they believe all residents must play a part in ensuring that the buildings are safe. That is why our Bill establishes appropriate responsibilities for residents, supported by guidance, to help them contribute to a safer living environment. Those three principles are fundamental to this Bill: safety, accountability, and resident voice.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our approach is comprehensive and proportionate. Our Bill extends new duties to all multi-occupied residential buildings, with some minor exceptions. But we recognise that our tallest, most complex buildings present particular challenges, with the potential for devastating consequences for large numbers of people. We propose to place the most stringent duties on those responsible for buildings at least 18m in height. These will include fire and structural safety duties, a requirement to apply to register the building, and specific reporting requirements.

Buildings of between 11m and 18m also require special attention. Fire or structural hazards in those buildings still pose a risk to many people. We believe it is important to ensure that these buildings are registered, and both fire and structural safety duties will apply, but there will be fewer reporting duties, ensuring proportionality while maintaining a focus on our core principles.

For regulated buildings of less than 11m in height and relevant houses in multiple occupation, the focus of this Bill will be on addressing and managing fire safety risks. There will still be a person responsible in law for assessing and managing fire safety risks, but other duties, such as building safety registration, will not apply.

Fire and rescue authorities already regulate fire safety in multi-occupied residential buildings. Our Bill will provide a framework that is tailored to ensuring that fire safety risks are being assessed and managed properly in those settings. Local authorities will have new regulatory functions, including registering buildings and regulating structural safety risks. We've engaged extensively with both in development of our proposals and will continue to do so as they prepare for the introduction of the new functions. I'm also pleased to announce today that I am making funding available to support local authorities with this preparedness.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this Bill aims to improve the safety and well-being of everyone living in multi-occupied buildings across Wales. It creates clear legal responsibilities for owners, gives residents new rights and pathways to raise concerns, establishes standards for professional assessments, and provides robust enforcement powers when safety requirements aren't met, because the safety and well-being of people in their homes must always be our priority.

This Bill is part of a wider programme to ensure that buildings in Wales are safer and that people are protected in their homes. The legacy of Grenfell Tower must be meaningful change. We owe it to those who lost their lives, their families and the survivors to ensure that such a tragedy can never happen in Wales. The Bill is a key part of a comprehensive programme of reform, which involves close partnership working between local authorities, the fire service, industry and residents. I look forward to scrutiny of the Bill by Members and to continuing to hear the views of stakeholders, delivery partners and the public during the legislative process.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you also for taking the time to meet me before this today. I know that for many people in Wales, this is a statement they've waited a long time for. As you say, eight years ago the Grenfell Tower fire took the lives of 72 people—a tragedy that was ultimately avoidable and exposed serious regulatory failures. I think we can all agree on the need for urgent reform to prevent anything like this ever happening again.

We support the aims of the Bill, particularly addressing the concerns raised by Dame Judith Hackitt around compliance and the importance of hearing residents' voices. Those principles must be carried through into the occupation phase. So, this is clearly a necessary and important piece of legislation and I hope that we can work together to get it right during this scrutiny process.

A key feature of this Bill is that local authorities will take on the role of building safety regulators during the occupation phase. This is a significant departure from the approach taken in England, where regulation is centralised through a national building safety regulator. From a local government perspective, there will of course be concern about the additional burden that this then places on our councils.

Councils in Wales, as you know, Cabinet Secretary, are already under intense financial pressure. We've all seen the difficult decisions being made locally, from rising council taxes to the closure of valued community facilities. These new duties will undoubtedly stretch capacity further. So, I'd like to ask why the Welsh Government chose a locally delivered model rather than a centralised approach. Would it not make more sense to hold the buildings register centrally, and have a single national regulator, rather than splitting oversight across 22 different local authorities?

A centralised system, of course, would also help avoid the conflicts of interest where councils are both landlords and regulators of the same buildings, and it could reduce the risk of a postcode lottery, as we discussed, in safety standards, as not all councils will be able to attract or afford the specialist staff needed to enforce these new rules effectively. So, Cabinet Secretary, what additional resources or funding will be provided to local authorities? You said there will be some; it would be good to hear exactly how much, please, to ensure that they can discharge these new responsibilities.

On the issue of accountable persons, we recognise that this role carries significant statutory responsibility, but I'd like to ask: will these individuals be required to undertake any formal training or certification, or can anyone simply be nominated? It's important that this doesn't become a paper exercise, a name on a form. We need real accountability, and that means ensuring accountable persons are competent, not just nominated. I'd also appreciate clarity on who these people are likely to be; will they be the residents, managing agents, housing associations, developers or local authorities themselves? If we want to ensure transparency and accountability, residents will need to know exactly who is responsible and how to escalate concerns if needed.

Finally, on the questions of the resident voice, we fully support the principle, but again, the implementation needs to be consistent. So, how will you ensure that residents across Wales, Cabinet Secretary, have the clear, standardised routes to raise concerns and be heard, regardless of which building or which local authority they live under? This legislation has been a long time coming; it must be fully funded by this Welsh Government. It must have real teeth, real accountability, and it must deliver clarity and simplicity for residents who've waited too long for meaningful protection. Diolch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Laura, and thank you for your welcome for this important Bill. As you say, this is something that we have been waiting for, and we've been working really hard to make sure that we get this right in discussion with all of our partners within this, including local authorities and, importantly, residents as well. We know that this landmark Bill will fundamentally transform safety in multi-occupied residential buildings across Wales.

Just to touch on a few of the important points that you mentioned, I certainly recognise the pressures that local authorities are facing. I frequently speak to local authority leaders across Wales, and I want to do all I can to minimise the challenges that they face, and that's why we are phasing commencement of the new building safety regime, and that phasing, by doing that, it'll ensure that we have a smooth transition where local authorities really do have that time and space to plan resources needed for the new regime.

As I said, I'm making funding available because of the additional pressures that the Bill will place on local authorities, and particularly because of the creation of their new regulatory functions. So, I'm making available £1.3 million to support local authorities with training and transitioning to the new regime, and we'll also work with them as we go through the scrutiny of this Bill and beyond to understand the costs post transition and the support we can provide to enable the effective operation of the new regime. But obviously, local authorities are absolutely key to us in this.

In terms of accountability, as you rightly point out, that is a key point and tenet of this Bill, and I think it was certainly something that we saw that didn't happen through Grenfell, when we found that residents were not heard, they were not listened to, and they did not know who to go to, and who was accountable. Currently, we know there's far too much ambiguity in relation to where responsibility for building safety lies, so the Bill is going to address this by introducing clear duty holder roles.

These duty holders will have a legal responsibility for assessing and managing building safety risks. Exactly which person or entity is identified as an accountable person will vary depending on the ownership and the management model for each building, but typically, we'd expect building owners and landlords, both social and private, to be identified as the accountable persons. But as we know, building ownership can be complex, and in some buildings, it could be possible for freeholders, headlesees or others to be accountable persons.

I very much welcome your comments today and I look forward to working with you and others through the passage of this Bill to make sure that we get the best possible Bill that we can after this scrutiny.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

I welcome the publication of this long-awaited Bill today, eight years since the Grenfell disaster where 72 people lost their lives, 18 of them children. I know that we will want to remember that backdrop throughout this Bill's journey through the Senedd. It is perfectly appropriate that we have a Bill made in Wales for the specific nature of the housing stock in Wales, but, of course, we shouldn't rest on our laurels. Grenfell demonstrated the awful results that can emanate for innocent people as a result of a culture of cutting corners when it comes to safety and of prioritising profit at the expense of people's lives, of privatising and deregulating and of a reckless attitude towards the residents of social housing on behalf of those authorities that are supposed to be safeguarding their interests.

I am aware that there has been work under way for some time on this Bill as part of the building safety programme that was part of the co-operation agreement. My priority in that initial phase was to urge to ensure that the remediation aspect of the programme happened as soon as possible, and my call remains the same today. In March 2023, it was announced in the Senedd that the developers' commitment had been signed by some of the largest developers and the Welsh Government would enforce the deal with developers on behalf of people and would prevent them from having to turn to the courts. But I do have to ask whether this stance continues to be sustainable, bearing in mind, for example, the residents of Victoria Dock in Caernarfon, in my constituency, are still waiting for clarity that Watkin Jones will undertake the necessary works. They don't know what the timetable is for that work, although the contract was signed almost a year ago.

So, when will the Government be enforcing these agreements and can you provide an assurance that the Bill won't draw your department's attention away from the momentum with this remediation work? This Bill, as it stands, won't provide a great deal of comfort for residents in places such as Victoria Dock, and if the Government doesn't take enforcement action appropriately, has the time come to include provision in the Bill, provision in statute to enable residents to challenge developers directly if the Government fails in its work in that direction?

Turning to the costs, at first glance, the costs in the RIA appear slightly ambiguous in terms of the fact that the major task of the new regime is likely to fall on the local authorities and on the fire and rescue service. The RIA foresees that the Government will shoulder £25 million of cost over 10 years, the industry—whatever the definition of that is—over £130 million and the county councils and the fire and rescue services around £8 million. So, how will we ensure in future that these costs on behalf of the industry aren't passed on to residents? That would be unacceptable, particularly with rent costs as they currently stand and the fact that the Bill's aim is to hold the developers responsible.

Just to conclude, one final question with regard to this issue of the national body. I see that you've disregarded the possibility of creating one national body to be responsible for leading this new regime. But I do have to question whether there is sufficient clarity on the face of the Bill with regard to who will be doing this work, and perhaps there is too much being left to regulation here.

Mention is made in the explanatory memorandum to the possibility of creating one or two councils acting as the lead authorities on behalf of others. But isn't that tantamount to having a national regime by another name? And if so, why not create that body? A few initial questions there. There will be an opportunity to scrutinise the Bill, and I look forward to the next stage. Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Siân. Thank you for those questions and for your welcome to the Bill and the work that you did with the co-operation agreement in preparation for all of this. So, as you know, it's been long in train, and lots of things going on within this. So, I'm sure that you're as pleased as me to see this here today.

I think that it was really good and pleasing to see that you mentioned how this is made in Wales, and this part of the legislation—. It's really important that we are looking at the situation here in Wales. The nature of buildings compared to England is quite different. We know that there are a lot taller buildings, 18m and above, in England compared to Wales. So, I think that it's really important that we look at our own landscape here. You're quite right, we shouldn't rest on our laurels. There's a lot to do. But we have been doing that work across the piece, really, following the tragedy of Grenfell. As I said, it really has to be meaningful change, and that's why this part of the Bill, particularly, looks at the occupation phase of the buildings as well, so looking at what happens there and making sure that we're protecting people in that way.

So, again, following on from the Grenfell inquiry, as I said, we fully accept the findings of the inquiry and have accepted, at least in principle, all of those recommendations. The inquiry's phase 2 report is relevant to Wales, and our response describes the action that we're going to be taking to implement the recommendations. As I say, much of that is under way.

So, in terms of some of the other points that you raised, and perhaps picking up on the local authority issue—. Also, I note that Laura raised that as well. I think that it's been important to recognise, again, the strength within local authorities, in terms of them being the body. Again, I've said that I would look for that to be one or two—working between one and two. That's still to be developed through this process as well, but we'll be working with local authorities on that as well, as we go through this process. I do think it does fit best with them without creating a specific body.

In terms of the other points that you raised, which I'm trying to have a look at now—. In terms of the costs as well, we know that there are costs to doing this. As I said, I've announced the £1.3 million now to work with local authorities, in terms of the training that will be needed and some of the other preparedness for it. We know that there's obviously a cost to that and, again, we'll be working with local authorities and others. But I think that it's also important to note there's a cost of not doing this. We know what the cost of Grenfell was—we're talking financially, but not least, the human cost—of not doing anything. So, I think that it's absolutely clear that we do recognise that within the points as well, because it's absolutely crucial that we protect people. I think that this Bill will go certainly a way, so that people are safe and certainly feel safe, which is crucial.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I thank the Minister for her statement introducing this Bill. I welcome the Minister's statement that, at the heart of her response, is a commitment to put residents first. Residents should always be put first. Well, as the Minister said, the Grenfell Tower tragedy is a poignant and devastating reminder of the importance and necessity of getting building safety right to us in the Senedd. It is a cause of fear every day for those living in high-rise buildings. Imagine every night, when you go to bed, fearing another Grenfell Tower where you are living.

We know the comprehensive findings of the Grenfell Tower inquiry laid bare the systematic failures across industry, governance and regulation that contributed to this tragedy, where profit was considered more important than safety. My constituents living in Altamar have been negotiating with Bellway for several years. When can they expect the remedial work they need done on their building to be completed?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Mike. Thank you for the points that you raised, your welcome for the Bill and the recognition that people do have that fear. I think, again, the key element of this Bill is to make sure that people are safe and feel safe in their buildings. I also acknowledge a point that you've made, and I know that you've raised it a number of times. I also remember one of Siân's points in her comments as well; I'll add to that in this response, if that's okay. I do regularly meet developers, because it is really important that this Bill is about, again, the occupational phase, rather than the remediation part of the Bill. We've been doing that work. That has been ongoing, as you know. And I met the developers last on 9 June. At that meeting, I was very clear that I expect the developers to step up to their responsibilities and to accelerate remediation. There are some positive signs that progress is improving, with a large number of remediation works already under way. But in response to an expectation set, I've also received a commitment from all developers that have signed the Welsh Government contract that works on all their developments in Wales will have at least started by the end of 2026.

I am concerned about the number of leaseholders that contact my officials expressing frustrations about them being kept in the dark, and I just want to put on record, again, that this is unacceptable. All developers have been instructed to develop detailed communication and engagement plans to ensure residents and leaseholders are kept fully informed at every stage. My officials are closely engaged in the progress at many developments across Wales, and I'd encourage Members to contact me or my officials if you have any concerns about specific developments.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary, for the statement. It is incredibly frustrating that here we are, eight years later. Many groups and individuals here in Wales feel so let down—groups like the Welsh Cladiators, who have formed themselves and really taken a lot of time and a lot of their own resources to actually raise the issues that we are now starting to see being addressed. They've told us of waking watches that have cost thousands every month, of skyrocketing insurance premiums, of some selling their homes at huge loss. Whilst this Bill does something for the current group, it doesn't reflect what's happened to the people over the past eight years who have suffered. It's hard to understand how the Welsh Government can find £20 million-worth in interest-free loans for the very developers who caused this crisis, but offer no equivalent support to their victims. Reforming our regulation is vital, of course, but it is not enough. So, I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, how will you commit to ensuring this Bill brings real support for current victims, not just future protections, and that that is within a legal and statutory framework? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch Jane, and thank you for raising those important issues. As I said, this Bill is very much separate to the work that we have been doing on remediation. So, this is about the occupation phase. You'll know that we took forward the regulations that appeared in the 2022 Act, a UK Government Act, in terms of the fabric of the buildings. This is our response to the occupation of the building. As I said, we have our remediation work going on. I've set out that I meet those developers regularly and I constantly urge the pace. I would like to see more pace in the system, and I know you would, and I know others, like the Cladiators and others, do as well.

But in terms of the work that we are doing, which I think is, again, separate to this Bill, we are closely monitoring the progress of that remediation by developers who've signed up to the Welsh Government contract. We know that the scale and scope of our programme is very different to what is in place in England. It is not possible to compare how we are in Wales to England. In Wales our remediation programme adopts a whole-building approach to fire safety and it is not focused solely on cladding. For that reason, our figures include remediation for both internal and external fire safety issues. Buildings are reported as complete when both the internal and external fire safety remediation is complete, and for this reason, the data published by other nations is obviously not directly comparable.

But we do work closely. We have an established leaseholders group as well, and there’s a stakeholder group that we’ve established in response to some of the concerns that the Cladiators have raised. We have this group that’s open to all leaseholders to come along, and I know that that has been very well received as well, but I can assure you that the remediation part is very much alongside this. We know that there is still more to do.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. I also, like everyone else, welcome this Bill, but like other contributors I'm also going to mention the painfully slow remediation of current buildings. I spoke to a couple last week who live around the corner in Victoria Wharf. They're in their late 80s. On their development the work won't start until 2027 and it'll be two to three years of disruption from then on. They'll be in their 90s before work is complete.

Only three private sector developments have been completed. You will know from the leaseholder forums that people feel very frustrated. They believe that the Welsh Government aren't doing enough to hold the developers’ feet to the fire. They don't see an end to their plight and they do think that the Welsh Government could do far more. So, how will you accelerate the pace of development? How will you use your influence to protect leaseholders against multinational, large companies with deep pockets? I receive regular correspondence, and I'm sure you do also, Cabinet Secretary, about high service charges. Can you ensure that this Bill’s provisions will not lead to increases in costs for leaseholders? Diolch yn fawr.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Rhys, and thank you for raising the concerns that you do on behalf of your constituents as well. In terms of the programme that we have, our building safety programme, as I said, is making progress and I'm clear that there is more to do. I can assure you that I have been very clear with those developers as well, as I regularly am, that I expect work to progress as quickly as possible.

There are currently 461 buildings in the programme. Of these, 43 per cent are either complete or work is under way, 47 per cent of buildings are in the planning stages, with the remaining 10 per cent either not requiring work or remediation needs are yet to be identified. So, we have set a stretching target for all developers to ensure that remediation work is started, as I say, as a minimum on all of their developments by the end of 2026. I can assure you that I will continue to push them on that in my regular meetings, doing everything I can to make that go as quickly as possible.

I'd also like to assure you that my officials are very much in regular contact with developers and leaseholders. We've got two different groups now and they're very much engaged, certainly weekly if not sometimes daily on some of these issues, because we know how important that that is. When there are barriers that have been identified, officials work very closely on the detail and they do everything they can to help remove the barriers so work can begin as soon as possible.

Our principle is that where a developer can be identified and can afford to remediate the buildings, they should do. Where there's no developer identified, Welsh Government will step in to fund that work. You'll also know about the consultation that we've launched in conjunction with the UK Government on leasehold reform. That launched on Friday and that is open, I believe, until September, so I'm sure you and others here will want to encourage your constituents to make sure they have their voices heard on what will be an important chance to have the leasehold reform that I think many Members here would say was much needed.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. The Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is next, the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025. And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to move the motion. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I’m pleased to bring the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025 before you today. The conduct Order is an unusually large piece of secondary legislation, which reflects its significance as a fundamental instrument for elections to this Parliament. It details the procedures for Senedd elections, how the elections are to be managed, and how independent candidates manage and report their election campaign activities. It also outlines the process for legal challenges to an election.

This Order replaces the current Order, which was originally made by the Secretary of State for Wales in 2007. That Order is now a much-amended piece of legislation that has become increasingly complex and difficult to follow and is no longer fit for purpose. This is the first time since the legislative powers were devolved that the Order has been redrafted as a single instrument. The Order considered today is more concise and employs suitable and modern terminology. Very importantly, the Order is presented bilingually for the first time, meaning that the rules for the elections to our Parliament are written in the two languages of our nation for the first time.

Our electoral reform principles of accessibility, equity, improving citizen experience, participation, simplicity and integrity have been at the forefront of the work of consolidating and modernising the Order. Its content and structure will be largely familiar. However, the Order has been updated to reflect the historic reforming legislation in the shape of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024 and the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024. This is a huge step forward, but we have been conscious of the pace of change and the capacity of electoral administrators and therefore have not sought to address every issue in one go with this Order. This is especially evident where we have reconsidered the implementation of postal vote statement correction procedures, which was in the draft Order we published last year. In our consultation, we heard concerns of the potential impact this would have on election teams, and have therefore removed the procedures from this Order. The Order supports consistency in electoral legislation, and the election rules themselves align as far as possible with the rules for local elections in Wales. We have listened to the consultation responses and amended the Order further where possible, and I hope you agree that we now have a workable and accessible Order.

The Order is being considered now to allow sufficient time for the election to the reformed Senedd to be prepared for properly, including the production of guidance, administrative training and public awareness building. A delay to this legislation would threaten the delivery of the Senedd elections. My officials will continue to work closely with the Electoral Commission and the electoral management board, the Association of Electoral Administrators and other key stakeholders to implement this historic legislation and to ensure that the Senedd elections next May are run as efficiently as possible. On that note, I’d like to express my thanks to the stakeholders and election teams for their continuous hard work and humility, and for their engagement throughout the project of remaking this Order. They are essential for the functioning of democracy.

This Order has been subject to considerable scrutiny, and I would like to thank the Reform Bill Committee for its consideration of a draft Order during the consultation period. The views of the committee were taken into account in the Order considered today. I’d also like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration of this legislation. I have responded to their helpful report, and have set out the amendments that will be made in the Order in response to those reporting points before it’s formally made. I can give the Senedd my assurance that all the amendments that will be made are minor in nature and do not change either the meaning or legal effect of the provisions being amended. I look forward to the views of Members.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Now, as the Cabinet Secretary is aware, my party does not support Senedd expansion. Whilst this Order is not specifically about the policy of Senedd expansion, but rather making provision for the conduct of elections to the Senedd following the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024, given our reservations about the Order, we will be abstaining on the Order this afternoon. Now, we have concerns about the Order itself and how it has been drafted, and we also share the concerns raised by organisations like the Royal National Institute of Blind People as well.

I'm grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for its scrutiny of this Order. Its members have been very vocal in expressing that this is not a particularly well-drafted piece of legislation, and I believe they have made that point clearly to the Welsh Government. It speaks volumes when the Member for Blaenau Gwent states that this is not a good piece of work from the Welsh Government and that we have a right to expect better. Well, on this side of the Chamber, we agree.

The committee has expressed concern about the high number of drafting defects and the inconsistencies between the English and Welsh language texts. Whilst I acknowledge that this is a substantial Order, that does not excuse the volume of drafting issues, and you'd hope the Welsh Government's own checking process would have been rigorous enough to pick out these issues.

I also share the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's concern regarding the Welsh Government's proposal to use the correction process. I understand that the Government believes the corrections are minor, and I do not dispute that, but the fact remains that correcting more than 20 errors in an instrument after it has been approved by the Senedd is, as the committee rightly states, an unreasonable and inappropriate use of the correction process.

I'd also like to highlight some of the issues raised during scrutiny by the Reform Bill Committee and through the consultation process. Firstly, the Reform Bill Committee made four recommendations in relation to the Order, all of which were either accepted or, indeed, accepted in principle by the Welsh Government. Two recommendations concerned the issue of vacant seats. The committee had concerns over whether a 21-day period provides a sufficient amount of time for a prospective Member to return to the register of local government electors in the event that they were not registered at the time when the seat became vacant. A 21-day grace period could prove problematic for some individuals. Whilst this is a very niche matter, it's a serious one, which, if not properly addressed, could cause significant disruption to the process for filling vacant Senedd seats. Now, the Welsh Government made it clear that work is ongoing in this area, so I hope the Cabinet Secretary will provide an update in response to this debate this afternoon.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to raise the calls made by RNIB Cymru. They are urging the Welsh Government to amend the Order to place a legal duty on returning officers to provide audio and tactile voting devices in all polling stations. I understand that, earlier this year, the Welsh Government, in collaboration with RNIB Cymru and local authority electoral services, conducted a series of voting trials with blind and partially sighted individuals to test a range of audio and tactile voting solutions. The results speak for themselves: 94 per cent of participants successfully voted for their intended choice, 83 per cent were able to vote independently, and 91 per cent were able to vote in secret. In contrast, at last year's general election, where such devices were not universally available, only 26 per cent of blind voters reported being able to vote independently and, indeed, in secret. I don't believe RNIB Cymru is asking for too much, and I'm disappointed that the Welsh Government has not taken the opportunity to ensure that effective audio and tactile voting solutions are available in all polling stations at future Welsh elections, so that blind and partially sighted people can vote independently and in secret, going forward.

Therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, in light of these issues, as I said at the outset, we will be abstaining on this Order this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I apologise to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Sorry, Mike, I missed you out. I now call upon the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee first considered the draft conduct Order on 2 June, leading to an exchange of correspondence with the Cabinet Secretary. This is because the committee’s report on the draft Order contained 42 reporting errors. Thirty-six of these are technical points. Of those 36, 14 reporting points note inconsistencies between the English and Welsh texts of the Order. I've difficulty in blaming the Minister for this—I don't expect the Minister to check that the English and Welsh texts are the same. What I do expect is some competency amongst civil servants in the Welsh Government to ensure that happens. Six reporting points highlighted potential defective drafting. There was also one issue with gender-specific language being used in the Order.

The committee wrote to the Cabinet Secretary on 4 June. While acknowledging that the conduct Order is large, the committee told the Cabinet Secretary that the number of potentially defective drafting issues and instances where the English and Welsh language do not match was of concern. The committee asked for clarity on the process that has led to the conduct Order being laid before the Senedd containing the errors and inconsistencies we identified. We asked the Cabinet Secretary to confirm whether it remained her intention to seek approval of the conduct Order in its present form. The Cabinet Secretary responded on 12 June, providing a response to the points in our report. She also included a table that runs to four pages in length, setting out corrections the Welsh Government propose to make to the Order should the Senedd approve it this afternoon and therefore it is signed into law.

The Cabinet Secretary also confirmed that the Senedd would be asked to consider the Order as laid today. The committee was not satisfied with this response. On 18 June, the committee wrote again, expressing concern that not only are there significant issues with the Order, but the Cabinet Secretary proposes to address more than 20 points raised in our report via the correction prior to making process. The Welsh Government has previously given a commitment to the Senedd that corrections would only be made to an instrument after its approval by the Senedd and prior to being signed into law by a Welsh Minister when the error in question is very minor. While each error identified by the committee and which the Cabinet Secretary proposes to correct prior to making may be minor, the committee is of the view that correcting more than 20 errors in an instrument after it has been approved by the Senedd is an unreasonable and inappropriate use of the correction prior to making process.

The committee has also challenged the Cabinet Secretary’s statement that she does not believe that any of the matters reported on by the committee give rise to any issues that compromise the overall integrity of the Order. This is a different assessment as to whether the instrument scrutinised and approved by the Senedd is deemed to have been substantially changed before being signed into law. We also informed the Cabinet Secretary of our concern that some of the Welsh Government’s proposed corrections will not actually address the errors and issues identified in the committee’s report.

We considered the Cabinet Secretary’s response to our second letter yesterday afternoon. The Cabinet Secretary said the Order underwent a rigorous checking process—and can I just say the word 'rigorous' used by the Cabinet Secretary and the word 'rigorous' as used by me have slightly different meanings—but the extensive and complex nature of the Order means there is always the potential for human error. As for the committee’s concern regarding the use of the correction prior to making process, the Cabinet Secretary said that she is satisfied that using the correction process in this instance is not unreasonable or inappropriate. The committee was again frustrated and concerned with the response provided by the Cabinet Secretary, and I wrote to the Cabinet Secretary yesterday afternoon on behalf of the committee. All correspondence between the committee and the Cabinet Secretary has been made available via today’s agenda, as the committee considers that all Members of the Senedd should be aware of these matters. Thank you.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

This Order, of course, reflects a new chapter in the history of the Senedd, as the foundations of our democracy come of age at last, a quarter of a century since Wales began its devolution journey. We also welcome the fact that the Order, for the first time, will be provided bilingually, an important step forward in confirming the status of the Welsh language in the context of the election.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We do, however, have several concerns that these Orders have some serious practical shortcomings, as well as glaring omissions, and will be abstaining this afternoon. My colleague Adam Price will speak to the specific issue of deliberate deception, but we are disappointed that the Order does not guarantee that universal roll-out of automatic registration for the 2026 election, in line with prior commitments made by the Government. I also have concerns, which have been raised by the LJC committee, regarding the shortcomings of the checking process for these Orders.

It's quite damning that, on the eve of this debate, on a matter of such significance as the arrangements for our next set of national elections, we have a Senedd committee submitting written correspondence expressing its view that the drafting of the Order has been badly mishandled, despite repeated prior warnings. It speaks to an alarming failure of the most fundamental machinery of Government. So, why has this gone so badly wrong, and will you commit to an urgent review of any current checking system?

Finally, returning to the theme of communication that I mentioned at the start of the contribution, you will be aware that the likes of the Electoral Commission have stressed the need for a robust and comprehensive communications campaign, well in advance of the next election, to ensure that voters are fully aware of the upcoming changes to the electoral system. Could you, therefore, provide an update as to the Welsh Government's intention in this area? And will you commit to bringing forward a public outreach strategy by no later than six months before the next election, to allow Senedd time for an element of scrutiny? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

This conduct Order is really part of the jigsaw to actually make our Senedd elections in 2026 much more open and much fairer. I would agree with Paul Davies' request around the RNIB, insisting that, actually, we need to see a fair bit of this actually being non-discriminatory. And we've had evidence, particularly the committees I've sat on, that this is discriminatory to blind people. So, I would like to hear that specific response, if I may, Cabinet Secretary.

But I want to just touch on an issue that many of us here in the Senedd feel is important, particularly as we go into the 2026 election, which is the issue of deliberate deception. We are going to be faced with an election in 2026 that will include a broad range of parties, and some of those we know, not just necessarily members, but potentially candidates, where there will be concerns around what they have said. This is not just about our electoral commitment to democracy, but it's also about ensuring that the public see, here in Wales, that we are committed to ensuring that we address deliberate deception. The situation with the public is that we're at an all-time low in terms of trust of politicians. So, although this Order doesn't include the element of deliberate deception, and I know that's coming in the Member accountability Bill, I would just ask you, specifically, if you could put on record that there is a commitment to looking at whether we are able to introduce deliberate deception in 2026, that there's an openness from the Welsh Government to consider any means by which we're able to get the mechanism in place to ensure deliberate deception comes into play, ready for the 2026 elections. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Can I start by apologising to the Chair and to the Cabinet Secretary, and to the Chamber, for being late for the beginning of this debate? But I'd just like to pick up on those last comments by Jane Dodds, really, and remind us of the connection between what we're discussing today, which is the conduct Order that introduces, through secondary regulations, the existing electoral offences, et cetera, and the fact that we are going to be, very shortly, discussing a new piece of primary legislation that will create a new electoral offence of deliberate deception. The purpose of doing that now is to get it in place by the 2026 election. The Government has committed to doing that and translating that into conduct Orders for future elections. But if the principle has been accepted, it's important that it's implemented now, because it's this next election when we are going to face, as Jane Dodds was intimating really, a tsunami of disinformation and deceit. So, we need to use this measure that we are going to legislate to create and we need to then turn that into action at this coming Senedd election.

We had a very useful conversation with the Counsel General on this very issue, about how, practically, given that we are getting closer to the Senedd election, we can translate the primary legislation into an amended conduct Order. So, it's important that we put that on the record now, so that Members, and indeed the public, are aware of this. And where we left the very constructive conversation we had with the Counsel General is that, at the moment, the Government is not convinced that there is a route through, but if we are able to demonstrate a route that is practical, then the Government is supportive. The Counsel General was supportive of that, so that was, I think, a very, very positive and constructive commitment.

And from our perspective, you can't delay the defence of democracy. Democracy needs to be defended in the here and now. So, we are hopeful that we will be discussing an amended conduct Order at the appropriate juncture, following the passing of the primary legislation, so that we're then able to ensure that what we and the Government are committed to doing for future elections, we're also able to enshrine that standard at the heart of the coming election through a future amendment to the conduct Order.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary now to reply.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and thank you to all Members for participating in this debate today and, once again, to the Reform Bill Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their thorough consideration of this legislation.

I know that it was raised by a number of Members, the appropriateness of making amendments to the Order prior to it being made. I don't accept that the number of amendments is considerable, just given the size of the Order. Just to remind everyone, it is over 400 pages in length in each language, and almost 270,000 words in both languages. And I can assure Members that the Order did go through a process of consultation and checking. Due to the extensive and complex nature of the Order, unfortunately there is always the potential for human error. But I can assure Members that careful and detailed consideration was given to all of the points raised by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and I'm satisfied that using the correction process in this instance is appropriate.

As I've set out, all of the amendments to the Order prior to it being made are very minor in nature. They don't change the meaning or legal effect of any of the provisions being amended, and even taken as a whole, the effect of the amendments would not substantially change the Order. And I think it's important to remember that, if these amendments were not made, the Order as it stands would not be defective and it would be fully operational. However, I am committed to addressing the amendments identified before the Order is made to ensure the integrity of the Welsh language, to ensure that gender neutrality is upheld and to ensure that the Order is as accessible as possible to readers. Again, it is a really important point to note that this is the first time that this Order is being made fully bilingually, and this in itself was a substantial, but obviously necessary, undertaking, and I'm really proud that we've been able to do that.

In terms of the other really important points that were made by Members, particularly around accessibility, obviously I very much support the pilots of the ballot paper, and I was really pleased to actually be at one of those pilots, in Cardiff. And in partnership with the RNIB and local authorities, we did carry out those trials with blind and partially sighted people of various audio and tactile voting solutions. We used a mock ballot paper, based on the current regional ballot paper, and although we did not test the ballot paper as it appears in the Order, as this was still out for consultation, it really did provide us with an insight into how blind and partially sighted voters might still navigate a long ballot paper, including all four party list candidates. I published a report outlining the findings from these trials on 12 May. And just to be clear with Members, while the sample ballot paper contained in the Order has each party's candidate in a single column, the legislation allows the returning officer to decide how many columns they should present it in, and this will allow for ballot papers that resemble the current regional ones. But I'm very committed to ensuring accessibility within the election.

In terms of the important points that were made in regard to the meeting that happened with the Counsel General, I know that the Counsel General confirmed in the legislative statement in April that the Government would be bringing forward a Bill relating to the accountability of the Members of the Senedd, following the publication of the two reports from the Standards of Conduct Committee on recall and deception, and we will bring forward a Bill. As the Counsel General said in her statement, the Bill will have two main features: recall provisions and Member accountability provisions. And we're committed to achieving this on a very tight timetable and work is progressing.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

[Inaudible.] Would you allow us to put on the record that that legislation, I think the Counsel General has already confirmed, would also apply to candidates, not just to Members?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

We can certainly write to you following that because, obviously, I wasn't—. It's good to put that, perhaps, on record in that way. But as I say, we are very much committed to achieving this on a very tight timetable, and work is very much progressing on that. I know that this is of particular concern to many Members in the Senedd.

Somebody mentioned how close we are to the Senedd elections. Time is upon us, really. It's fast approaching, the election, I think less than 10 months now. We know that there's a lot of work to do, but just to be clear that without this Order, there will be significant risk to the 2026 elections, so I would urge all Members to support this today. Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, therefore we will defer voting until voting time.

5. Debate: The First Supplementary Budget 2025-26

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 5 is next. This is the debate on the first supplementary budget for 2025-26, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language to move the motion. Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to open this debate on the Welsh Government's first supplementary budget for 2025-26. As is usual in the case of supplementary budgets, it makes adaptations to the general level of the resources available to Wales as a result of the spring statement and the main estimates for 2025-26 made by the UK Government. It includes spending and fiscal plans for the Welsh Government and the bodies directly funded from the Welsh consolidated fund. This is the first opportunity to present the budgetary plans for the current financial year since the final budget was agreed in March.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, this first supplementary budget includes a total increase to the Welsh departmental expenditure limit of £587 million, of which £342 million is revenue. One hundred and eighty eight million pounds comes for non-cash budgets, £16 million for general capital and a small reduction of under £200,000 to the financial transactions budget. Alongside the income side, the supplementary budget also regularises spending plans.

This first supplementary budget contains two items of particular note. First, it confirms the allocation of a total package of £220 million revenue to support our public services, including further education, with increased national insurance contributions. I have passed on in full the £185 million provided by the UK Government. Members will be aware that this fell short of the £257 million needed by devolved public sector employers in Wales to meet the impact of increased costs. This supplementary budget therefore also shows the additional £36 million from reserves to contribute 50 per cent towards the gap faced by those employers. This total package of support will fund 85 per cent of the additional costs reported by public sector employers. I continue to press the UK Government to fully fund the cost of the additional national insurance contributions in Wales.

Llywydd, the second expenditure item of significance is a transfer of £100 million to the health and social care main expenditure group. The new funding will support the NHS to build on the progress made to date to reduce the longest waits for planned treatment. The new planned care recovery plan, agreed by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, sets out our ambitions to reduce the overall size of the waiting list by 200,000 people, to eliminate all two-year waits, and to restore the diagnostic wait times to under eight weeks by March 2026. I recognise the enormous efforts being made by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and those in the wider NHS, to fulfil these plans, and, of course, as finance Secretary, I share his expectation that this funding must deliver tangible improvements.

Other transfers of a smaller order made through this first supplementary budget in respect of specific funding received from the UK Government include changes that are to be found in the MEGs available to my Cabinet colleagues responsible for health and social care, economy, energy and planning, education and social justice. The budget also regularises approved transfers within and between Welsh Government ministerial portfolios to align resources with the delivery of our priorities, ensuring that resources are deployed effectively.

In bringing the supplementary budget in front of the Senedd, I have drawn £40 million from the Wales reserve to support our spending plans. Funds remaining in the Wales reserve are sufficient, I believe, to manage emerging pressures during the rest of this year. As is normal practice, I will table a second supplementary budget later in this financial year. Any further allocations from reserves will be regularised in that second supplementary budget, which will also include details of any further consequentials to Wales, be they positive or negative, that arise as a result of changes to UK Government departmental spending.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the first supplementary budget is a regular but important part of our annual process for the budget. It provides assurances to public services. It also ensures that Senedd Members and committees, as they scrutinise, can clearly see the changes made in Government decisions in terms of income and expenditure. I would of course like to thank the Finance Committee for giving full consideration to the budget, and I'd like to thank them for their report. I will respond in detail to the recommendations in due course, but I can say today that I'm sure that we can accept a number of recommendations contained within the report. May I urge Members to support the budget before the Senedd this afternoon?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for responding to our report. I'm pleased to speak this afternoon on behalf of the Finance Committee in this debate. The committee scrutinised the first supplementary budget on 26 June, and I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary and his officials for their attendance. Our report makes eight recommendations and comes to one conclusion. As the Cabinet Secretary has indicated, the changes in this supplementary budget are largely codifying Welsh Government decisions that were made prior to the outcome of the UK spending review that was published on 11 June.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

However, we found areas where improvements could be made and where further action is required. Firstly, we are grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for providing a breakdown of the consequential funding the Welsh Government has received in correspondence after the supplementary budget was laid. We have long called for this level of transparency and find it particularly helpful in our budget scrutiny work. So much so that we would like this information to be provided as soon as possible after each UK fiscal event from now on, as well as incorporated within the explanatory notes of supplementary budgets in the future.

Turning to specific issues, we share the Cabinet Secretary’s disappointment that the funding provided by the UK Government to compensate public sector organisations for the increase in national insurance contributions is around £72 million short of estimates provided by public sector organisations in Wales. We have received significant correspondence on this issue since last year’s autumn statement, and are deeply concerned by the financial impact this is having on organisations across Wales. This is very disappointing, given that the UK Government is not providing the same level of support to Welsh public sector services as provided for in England.

The committee is particularly concerned that no compensation will be provided to third sector providers or commissioned services. We call on the Welsh Government to assess the impact of this funding shortfall on those bodies, given they are often providing services on behalf or instead of public sector agencies such as the NHS and local authorities. Despite this, we welcome the steps taken by the Cabinet Secretary to plug the funding shortfall in this budget. We also support the Cabinet Secretary in his efforts to both secure full funding for this shortfall in this financial year and to develop a sustainable plan to manage recurring costs without relying on reserves in future financial years.

This episode also illustrates that the relationship between the Welsh Government and HM Treasury is often undermined by a lack of robust dispute resolution mechanisms. It often places the Welsh Government at a disadvantage, especially as the current position involves the Treasury both making the decisions on interpreting rules and investigating challenges to these decisions. We have previously recommended action in this area as part of our inquiry into fiscal inter-governmental relations, and the committee again supports a more balanced system of dispute resolutions to address this.

In terms of specific allocations in the supplementary budget, we note the £100 million funding provided to reduce waiting times. We note the assurances provided by the Cabinet Secretary that the oversight arrangements within Government around this additional funding are robust and will lead to the desired outcomes. Nonetheless, given the ongoing concerns of the committee in relation to productivity in the health service, the committee wants to see more evidence of how Welsh Government allocations are linked to outcomes, and have included a recommendation to this effect.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

To conclude, Llywydd, I would like to discuss budget flexibilities. Despite some welcome recent developments, notably in relation to allowing the Welsh Government unfettered access to the Wales reserve this financial year, it was disappointing to hear that there were no further changes in this area following the spending review.

Given our previous support for increasing borrowing limits and drawdowns in line with inflation throughout this Senedd, it would be particularly disappointing if no progress was made on these matters before the end of this Senedd term. We therefore call on the Cabinet Secretary to continue to pursue these matters.

As ever, we welcome the Cabinet Secretary's continued engagement with us as part of our budget scrutiny work and we ask that the areas that we have identified in our report are taken forward. Thank you very much.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for opening this debate today. I also recognise that what's being presented to us is very much a process element of the role of the supplementary budget. The reason why it's presented to us in this format today, as the Chair of the Finance Committee mentioned, is recognising it's very much a reconciliation process for the sake of the budget as it stands today. That's why we as a group will be abstaining on the motion in front of us here today.

I'd like to take my time just to focus on the most significant element of the supplementary budget, which is the national insurance contribution impact on the Government's budget and the broader impact of that, both in terms of our economy and public service providers more broadly.

Of course, for context, according to the Governor of the Bank of England, the national insurance increase is, as they've described it, contributing to a job market slowdown with lower labour demand and a forthcoming what they describe as significant decline in wage growth, which is an important context for the Government here to consider. Of course, that does apply across the United Kingdom, but we know here in Wales it will have a particularly negative impact because of the lower pay packets that are here. So, the relative impact on employers is going to be and is proving to be significant. We're also aware of the prospect of future tax hikes, possibly even in the autumn, which certainly is a risk to some businesses here in Wales.

What this means for the Welsh Government's budget, as we've seen presented to us today, is that £185 million being met by the UK Government to support the increase of those national insurance hikes to the public sector here in Wales. As we've heard the Cabinet Secretary say previously, this has fallen significantly short of what is required to enable the Cabinet Secretary to fully fund that increase in our public services, specifically for public sector employers. We know that cost is £257 million.

It's important to distinguish those public sector employers in Wales from public service providers, because we know that there's going to be no specific or ring-fenced increase in funding for public service providers, whether they're charities, who provide a significant amount of public service work here in Wales, often commissioned, of course, by public bodies, but also for those businesses, in particular in social care, who provide a significant amount of public service work. They are not going to feel the benefit directly as a result of that funding for the national insurance increase.

We know the reason for that, and credit to the Cabinet Secretary for raising this on numerous occasions and for his continued work in this space. We know that, in England, the full cost of those higher national insurance contributions has been met by the Westminster Government. That's not the case here in Wales, because of the way the Barnett formula has been set up. So, I give credit to the Cabinet Secretary for committing to campaigning and pushing for the further levels of national insurance to come through. But, in the meantime, what's been created is some uncertainty for public bodies and for public service providers, and there's a real risk here in the way this has been plugged.

I can appreciate some of the tension that the Cabinet Secretary will have to work through on this. The fact that reserves are being used to plug some of this funding gap is a real risk for the future, because, of course, reserves can only be used once, and the national insurance increase is a recurring cost pressure. A live example of what that uncertainty means and the additional pressures it's putting on organisations came across my desk just recently. For example, the further education colleges have outlined to me the additional pressures with the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 duties set to rise beyond £2.7 million for the financial year that we are in, and those pressures will not be met as a result of this funding coming through.

Apologies if it all sounded a bit long-winded, Llywydd, but there is real concern, more broadly, about the way in which the national insurance contribution increase has not been met in full. I recognise the Cabinet Secretary's work on this, but currently it is not enough, and there's a real risk with the use of reserves to plug that gap. So, perhaps in the Cabinet Secretary's response to the debate, if he’s able to provide assurances and certainty as to how this particular issue will be managed in the future and how he foresees some of the opportunities there, that would be greatly appreciated. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for opening today's debate? I do think that there is consensus across this Chamber in terms of NI. It’s something that’s been raised so regularly. May I thank the Finance Committee for its work and for the report? I think the recommendations are sensible and are extremely important. And, certainly, I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary. You did mention that you accepted the recommendations, but particularly on recommendation 6, in terms of measuring the direct and indirect impact of the increase of national insurance contribution on the third sector and services commissioned, to understand the long-term impact of this deficit. I would like to know if that is something that you would commit to, because I do think that it’s a key recommendation made by the Finance Committee.

It is something that you have spoken clearly about, in terms of your frustration, that we haven’t been given the necessary amount in terms of the £257 million in full, and also the impact that this will have on all future budgets because of that deficit. I do think that it was the right decision to use reserves to plug that gap, because we do know that it’s a very challenging situation indeed. But I would also like to understand if any support has been provided to some of the Welsh Government sponsored bodies. They're clearly—. In terms of the definition of 'public sector', that's something that we were questioning you on when the announcement was made on the UK Government's budget. But in order to understand what the impact will be across the whole range of public services, including Amgueddfa Cymru, the National Library of Wales and so on, I would appreciate some clarity in terms of that.

Clearly, one of the other recommendations made by the committee is on the fiscal framework and the frustration that that hasn't been progressed either. Are there any updates that you can provide to the Senedd today?

But more than anything, I think what we all want to see happen in terms of national insurance is that we must find a solution to this issue. There are so many third sector organisations and charities who continue to contact us to talk about the gravity of the situation in this financial year, but who are also fearful, when it comes to the 1 April next year, that they won't be able to continue with their activities. And we know how crucial so many of these third sector organisations and charities are in terms of doing some of the important things that the Welsh Government wants them to do to support the most vulnerable people in our communities—those who will also be impacted, of course, by the welfare changes imposed by the UK Government.

So, I know that we are all asking the same questions here, but I don't think we can overemphasise how much of a concern this is across Wales. So, with those few questions, I will leave my contribution there. But I would like some clarity on the issues that I have raised. Thank you.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

The first supplementary budget is not a major financial event, but it's an important one. The changes in the supplementary budget are minimal. It largely codifies Welsh Government decisions that were made prior to the outcome of the UK spending review published in June. The supplementary budget reflects the budgetary changes since the final budget of 2025-26, which was published in February and which was approved by the Senedd in March. It regularises allocations to and from reserves, transfers within and between portfolios, and includes adjustments to the Wales budget to reflect the impact of UK Government fiscal events. Overall, the budget shows an increase in funds allocated to Welsh Government departments.

Having listened to the debate, I think a lot of people would have great difficulty in actually understanding that there is more money going to Welsh Government departments, and there is more money coming into Wales—substantially more than the 2.5 per cent national insurance contributions. The non-fiscal resource base increased by £188.2 million—

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Would you take an intervention?

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Certainly.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Can you explain, therefore, why the Cabinet Secretary has had to make the difficult decision of going into the Welsh reserves in order to make up that shortfall?

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I can, but he can also do that. It's because he didn't want to take money off the spending departments. He didn't want to take money out of health. He prioritised health; the money had already been spent on health. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will explain it in greater detail.

The balance of unallocated non-fiscal resources reserved following the supplementary budget is £339.7 million. This is not money that can be allocated and spent, but an accountancy convention. Following a question from me at the Finance Committee, the Cabinet Secretary confirmed in evidence that these changes don't affect the amount of revenue or capital available to us for spending purposes. If the student loan fund was run by anybody other than Government, it would be considered a Ponzi. At some stage, it's going to be technically bankrupt—if it isn't technically bankrupt already—but the fact that it's got the Government underwriting it means that it continues.

There are no changes to the devolved tax income, with forecasts reflecting those published at the time of the final budget. However, the amount required to repay principal borrowing has reduced, increasing the amount of financing available by £2.5 million. The level of borrowing remains as it was in the final budget, at £150 million, but again, it may not all be used. There is no better example of how the Treasury treats devolved Governments as no different to Westminster departments than how, unlike local councils, they are not allowed to move money into and out of reserves as they wish, and that borrowing limits are set centrally as opposed to the stability to borrow prudentially. Those people in here who have held senior posts in local government will remember the ability to move money into and out of reserves as and when it was needed, and not having to get somebody to agree that that was the right amount. It makes no sense. It doesn't actually mean anything to the Treasury, because they've already allocated the money. It's just Treasury micromanagement.

When asked in the Finance Committee how the Welsh Government is assuring that the £100 million allocated to health will deliver the planned outcomes, the Cabinet Secretary confirmed that the primary responsibility for delivering outcomes with the funding provided lies with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. Additional money must provide increased numbers of people being treated. The committee recommended that the Cabinet Secretary explains how the Welsh Government maintains rigorous scrutiny and monitoring of health service funding to ensure it delivers the intended outcomes, including how the funding is reviewed and adjusted based on performance outcomes. What the Welsh Government failed to do is produce an expectation of what additional money will achieve. How many additional patients will be treated? What is the standard cost for each intervention? Why is the cost higher in some hospitals than others, including within the same health board, for carrying out the same level of intervention? Using the additional money to support artificial intelligence developments that can help diagnose lung cancer more accurately and predict heart attacks and strokes would be a good use of resources. It can also be used in areas such as ophthalmology, where it should increase accuracy in the screening and diagnosis of glaucoma and cataracts. AI can be used to analyse biopsy results, speeding up results for patients. I think that far too often, we don't think how we can use technology, we think how we can employ more people. Using technology actually means that you can get more work done by the same number of people, and I would hope that the health Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for finance will look at that as a means of taking us forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary now to reply to the debate.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to the debate.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I'm always grateful for suggestions for improvement and, as I said in my opening remarks, I will look carefully at the eight recommendations contained in the Finance Committee's report. I don't want to pre-empt that process, but I will say that I'm looking forward to accepting the recommendation that we routinely provide information on consequentials as part of the supplementary budget process. And I agreed with what the Chair of the Finance Committee said about the need to have a better form of dispute resolution when disputes arise with the Treasury, and a form of resolution that has an element of independence within it. I give the Chair an assurance that where matters continue to be under discussion between us, we will endeavour to still be at the table to move those discussions forward.

I was grateful to the finance spokesperson of the Conservatives for indicating that his group will, as they have in the past, abstain in relation to the first supplementary budget. It is, as Sam Rowlands said, essentially a process event rather than a decision-making event. I listened carefully to his careful analysis of the national insurance issue as well, and there was little that I would have dissented from what he had to say.

I will make just two points: as far as FE colleges are concerned, because of the legal framework of FE colleges in Wales, they fell outside the Chancellor's definition, the ONS definition of public service employees, but I took the decision, together with the Minister involved, to include them, so insofar as I have been able to assist other public services, further education colleges are being treated on the same basis. Of course, Mr Rowlands made the important point, Llywydd, about reserves. In-year management of additional expenditure is routinely managed through reserves. The point I think the Member was making is what happens beyond this year, and that will indeed be a matter for us to discuss in the budget-making process during the autumn.

Heledd Fychan also focused on the national insurance issue, Llywydd. I've said what I've said on that matter many times now. I wanted to make sure that Welsh public services were treated as closely as possible as public services across our border. What I wasn't able to do was to use Welsh Government resources, provided primarily for the great public services—health, housing, education, local government, and so on—to divert those resources into meeting a responsibility that isn't a responsibility of this Senedd. And I recognise that that will cause challenges for many organisations here in Wales, but it's a judgment, and my judgment was that I could not provide for that ever-widening circle of employers who fell outwith the Chancellor's definition, where there would be no help in England for me to match or attempt to match from resources here in Wales.

Mike Hedges was right, of course, when he said that there is far more money coming to Wales in the first supplementary budget than the cost of national insurance. But that money is there to cover a very wide range of purposes. Had I used it all for national insurance purposes, many Members here would be asking me this afternoon why I hadn’t provided for the other purposes for which that money was being supplied. In drawing down money from the reserves, I made a careful calculation of what I think can be afforded at this point in this financial year, without putting in danger the ability of the Welsh Government to manage the budget as a whole over the remaining three quarters of this current financial year.

More generally, Mike made a series of points that we have raised with the Treasury. I raised the issue of prudential borrowing directly with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in my last meeting with him, and quite certainly, the micromanagement of our budget by the UK Treasury is something that would be very profitably put right, not simply for the Welsh Government, but also freeing up resources within the Treasury to do more useful things than deciding how much money I can take out and put back into the reserves, with money that is already devolved here to Wales.

Llywydd, I’ve enjoyed listening to the debate. I think it would be fair of me to say that a number of the points made are in the context of the first supplementary budget, rather than directly about the spending and income plans that it sets out. I’m grateful to those Members who’ve indicated that they will help to allow the budget to go through this afternoon.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll defer voting until voting time.

6. The Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill: Signification of His Majesty’s Consent

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 6 is next, the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill: signification of His Majesty’s consent. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for finance to move the motion.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I have it in command from His Majesty the King to acquaint the Senedd that His Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill, has given his consent to this Bill.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you.

7. Stage 4 of the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 7 is next: Stage 4 of the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill. And the Cabinet Secretary for finance is to move the motion for Stage 4—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm pleased to move the motion before the Senedd today for Stage 4 of the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill.

I’d like to begin, as is conventional at this point, by expressing my thanks to a range of those who played an important part in the development and passage of the Bill. I begin by expressing my thanks to the committees, the Commission staff and those Members who've been directly involved in the consideration and scrutiny of the Bill for their sustained attention throughout the process. I also extend my gratitude to Cefin Campbell and his colleagues. The Bill was part of the co-operation agreement, and I thank Cefin Campbell for his consistent support of the Bill. And I wanted to thank my colleague Rebecca Evans for the formative work that she undertook in this policy area when finance Secretary. I am very grateful as well to the stakeholders and delivery partners for their views, suggestions and expertise as the policy was developed. They've been an integral part of the process since the outset and their input has undoubtedly been influential in shaping the Bill, and the Government remains committed to working with them to ensure that this policy, where implemented, is a positive step for all. Finally, Llywydd, I would like to express my gratitude to all of the officials—the Welsh Government officials—who've worked tirelessly on the Bill, ensuring that it has remained responsive to the process of scrutiny, while never losing sight of its founding principles.

Llywydd, by passing this Bill, we will give councils the choice to introduce a modest additional charge on overnight stays, which will be reinvested to support a thriving, sustainable tourism industry. The visitor levy is the first local tax for more than 500 years to have been designed and legislated upon in Wales. In our still young institution, it marks another important step on the devolution journey—a levy that, as Members know, through a small contribution, could still make a significant difference.

The levy could potentially raise £33 million across Wales, were all local authorities to introduce a visitor levy, and that would be a significant ongoing investment in those communities. The Government wants to ensure that the pressures and opportunities of tourism are fairly balanced. We believe it is reasonable for visitors to contribute towards infrastructure and services integral to their experience, as they do in so many other parts of the world, from Iceland to New Zealand, and many, many countries in between. Our research tells us unequivocally that the revenue generated has significantly contributed to environmental protection, the enhancement of facilities and infrastructure, the preservation of natural beauty, while supporting the visitor economy—all without deterring tourism. We want the same for Wales.

The Bill establishes a register of visitor accommodation providers operating in Wales, which will provide data to inform future tourism development and subsequent phases for regulating visitor accommodation. At present, our information about providers is incomplete. Enhancing this knowledge will be beneficial for the tourism industry itself and will support the effective implementation of the levy.

Llywydd, during the scrutiny of the Bill, several amendments were made. A partnership forum will now be established so that local people will have a say on how the visitor levy will be applied. While the rate has been set at a relatively low level compared to international standards, and exemptions have been limited to reduce complexity, the Bill now provides for those under the age of 18 no longer having to pay for hostels and campsite pitches, to limit any impact on young people.

The Welsh Revenue Authority will collect and manage the levy, to minimise the burden on local authorities. Should the Bill pass today, we will work with our partners and businesses to ensure a smooth implementation process before the proposed commencement of national registration in the autumn of 2026, and the earliest that a levy can be introduced will be in April 2027.

Llywydd, I ask Members to support this unique piece of legislation. It will strengthen communities, build democratic accountability and put tourism in Wales on a new and sustainable footing. Diolch.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

The Welsh Conservatives have opposed this Bill from the start and continue to oppose it to this day. We believe it is bad for Wales and bad for the Welsh tourism sector, which forms such an important part of our Welsh economy. After 26 years of Labour-run Welsh Government, the economy in Wales is in dire straits.

This levy, by the Welsh Government's own admission, will impact jobs and our economy more broadly. Implementing a policy that undermines a sector that is world class and that already contributes significantly to the public purse through taxation and through various levies does not make sense to me or to my Welsh Conservative colleagues. It certainly does not make sense to the sector itself, which is strongly opposed to the Bill.

Through this process, we have proposed many amendments to this Bill, most of which, due to the beauty of democracy, were unsuccessful. But they were done in a way that I hope was constructive and engaging with the process, whilst we continued to be clear about our opposition to a tourism tax. That opposition is arm in arm with the people who know tourism and business best, and that is the actual tourism sector itself. In my capacity as chair of the tourism cross-party group, I regularly meet with tourism providers and operators, and, in my role as the Welsh Conservatives lead on this Bill, I've had the opportunity to meet with even more, hearing their concerns and also their hopes and their aspirations for the future too.

Wales really is a fantastic place to visit. We have so many people who work hard to keep it fantastic, ranging from unique accommodation providers to those who create unbeatable experiences up and down Wales. The work they do is essential to providing jobs, supporting our communities and stimulating economic growth. We really need more of that. Sadly, I think this Bill will create less of that, and we need a Government that understands the necessity of jobs and growth, so we can see a flourishing Wales in the future too. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I would reiterate Plaid Cymru's support for this Bill. There is a genuine opportunity here for us to create a sustainable tourism sector that works with both our communities and the businesses that operate within those communities. What I would say to the Cabinet Secretary now is that there have, of course, been some tensions around the introduction of a levy in some parts of the sector. Of course, I've met many businesses within the sector that also are supportive of the Bill and what is set out in the Bill and the sustainable tourism element of the Bill, but there have been some tensions. So, what we need to do now going forward—. It's important that we recognise that there are those concerns, and that this levy is implemented and reviewed to ensure that it actually achieves what the Government set out in the first place for it to achieve.

Now, I do believe that we will look back at this period in years to come and determine that this was the right course of action, as they have done in other countries over the years. The very same arguments were happening when they were looking to introduce a tourism levy in Barcelona and in other places, so I do really believe that we will look back at this as a positive step forward for our communities and to creating that sustainable tourism sector that, again, works with our communities and works with our businesses in tandem.

What I would like to say, of course, is 'thank you' to the Cabinet Secretary for working alongside myself and other colleagues to put together amendments that would improve the Bill, notably, from my perspective, the amendment to ensure that we give more time for those people who are seeking refuge from whether that be abusive relationships or homelessness to be able to claim back that levy. I think that was an important step and, again, signals the intent of the Government that this is something that, again, works with our communities.

I'd also, again, like to reiterate—the same as the Cabinet Secretary—a 'thank you' to Cefin Campbell, Siân Gwenllian and Adam Price for the work that they did during the co-operation agreement as well. Again, I think it is reflected in this Bill, much of the intent that was put forward by them during that period. Diolch yn fawr.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I just want to say that I think the Tories are completely out of touch and out of date on this issue. Thousands of people have visited Cardiff in the last few days and weeks, and some of them have come from as far away as Australia for the Oasis concert. I know that TfW manages to just about cover its costs through the increased revenue from more people travelling on public transport, and that's very welcome, but how do you expect the poor people of Adamsdown to have to cover all the other costs, like the litter that inevitably is created?

I went to Liverpool on the weekend, and I was more than happy to pay the £2.30 or £2.40 that it cost to stay for a night in Liverpool. Why we think that poor people, rather than visitors, should have to pay for the inevitable costs of thousands of people congregating in any one place, whether it's Tenby or it's Cardiff or in Colwyn Bay—? This is a really good idea, and it won't in any way impact on tourism.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for his constructive engagement throughout the journey of this Bill. I'm grateful to him for confirming that complaints related to the registration of accommodation will be part of the WRA's remit, and it was confirmed that the commencement Order will be made before the end of this Senedd, with registration to begin by October 2026. May I ask for a word of explanation on that? Will that happen in each local authority in turn, or in clusters of local authorities in turn? That is, will one authority be able to start on it immediately, if they so wish? I would urge again for us to have a final end date for the completion of this registration work throughout Wales.

Finally, in terms of definitions, we had an assurance that guidelines will be provided to accommodation providers about the kinds of accommodation as they register. That will be crucial for us to create a comprehensive picture and to understand the impact of tourism on the use of houses in our communities—houses that could be used as homes, leading to the possibility of reintroducing balance in some communities. So, I very much look forward to continuing with that discussion with the introduction of the licensing of long-term accommodation Bill. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Well, Sam Rowlands was right to say that the Welsh Conservatives have consistently opposed the Bill. They've been hampered throughout, it seems to me, by a complete lack of proportion about the Bill, the consistent attempts to catastrophise this very modest measure. You really would think that nobody would ever travel to a holiday destination in Wales again because they're going to be asked to pay less than the price of a cup of coffee as a result of this Bill, where local authorities choose to introduce it. It is a permissive power. Nobody is being required to introduce a visitor levy. Where local authorities believe it will be beneficial to their areas, they will now have the opportunity to do that and to share the costs more fairly between local residents—of course, it is very popular amongst the residents of those constituents represented by some Conservative Members here—to share those costs between residents and people who make that visit.

The caravan site in Pontcanna, Llywydd, was filled to bursting over the weekend, as Jenny Rathbone has said. All of that requires the local authority to provide services to clear up the site when people move on. What the Bill does, should Cardiff Council decide to take the permissive power, is make sure that those people make a very small contribution, alongside the residents of the city itself, to make sure that Cardiff goes on being an attractive place to hold such events and for people to visit in the future.

I thank Luke Fletcher for his contributions during the passage of the Bill. I agree with him that we now move to the careful implementation and review of the Bill and to continue to work alongside the industry to make sure that, where local authorities do decide to use the power, it's done in a way that has their involvement.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I also agree with Siân Gwenllian, Llywydd. Of course, we will be providing guidance to local authorities and others involved in this area. When a new initiative is introduced, it's important that we work with people to give them an opportunity and to give them time to familiarise themselves with the new duties that will be placed upon them when the Bill is enacted.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

And of course I am keen to go on working with others to bring a second piece, a companion piece, of legislation in front of the Senedd, as we agreed in the original co-operation agreement.

Llywydd, this is a modest measure. It provides a power for those local authorities who wish to use it. It has a broad base as a tax, which charges a very modest amount for visitors from within Wales and to Wales, to make sure that there is investment in the conditions that make the tourism industry the success it is in Wales, and will allow that industry to go on thriving into the future. I ask Members here to support it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, so I defer voting until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move to voting time. So, we will take our first vote. The first vote this afternoon is on item 4, the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, 24 abstentions, none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next vote is on item 5, the debate on the first supplementary budget 2025-26. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, 24 abstentions and one against, and therefore the budget is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The final vote will be on Stage 4 of the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Mark Drakeford. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You've just walked in. That might explain it. I don't think you need to worry too much. For 37, no abstentions, 13 against.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And therefore the motion is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

There we are. That concludes voting for this afternoon. We will now take a short break of some 10 minutes as we prepare for Stage 3 proceedings on the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill, and we will ring the bell five minutes before we reconvene.

9. Stage 3 of the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I hope that we are ready to start our Stage 3 consideration of the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill.

Group 1: Part 1: The Disused Tip Authority for Wales: Establishment and functions (Amendments 49, 17, 30, 50, 18, 19, 20, 31)

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The first group of amendments relates to the establishment and functions of the disused tip authority for Wales under Part 1. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 49, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First of all, I’d like to thank everybody involved in the development of this legislation, but from my side I would like to give special thanks to Molly Skates, Katie Wyatt, Elizabeth Wilkinson and Mostyn Jones. In terms of amendment 49, fellow Members do need to be aware that the authority will be subject to the section 6 duty in the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and ‘the authority’ is as discussed throughout this legislation.

The difference my amendment would make is that it would require the authority to set out, in the corporate plan, just how it intends to consider biodiversity when discharging its functions under the Act. During a time when both the nature and climate crises do exist, and bearing in mind the evidence we’ve received of the high biodiversity significance of disused tips, we should make it a legal requirement to detail how nature is to be considered in the corporate plan. This would be of advantage to the Welsh Government's own amendment 17, which does require consultation on the corporate plan. We know from committee that environmental organisations have considerable interest in these tips, and I would expect that they would be consulted on the corporate plan. Why, therefore, exclude details on the management of biodiversity from it?

During a recent site meeting with Natural Resources Wales and the Mining Remediation Authority, both of whom are undertaking exceptional but significant work at Parc lead mine in the Gwydir forest, it was highlighted that situations can arise where flora and fauna have grown on tips, which can lead to a site of special scientific interest classification, and that causes serious complexity and increased costs associated with remediation. The flora and fauna would simply not be there but for the tip. The tip would not be there and need remediation work should the spoils have been managed to higher standards. Why then should the authority, NRW, the Mining Remediation Authority and others encounter higher costs because the balance at present is in favour of protecting an aspect of the environment that is only present as a consequence of industrialisation? All I am aiming to achieve, as part of amendment 50, is to set out in law a commonsense solution that, in cases of conflict, the authority must prioritise human welfare over maintaining and enhancing biodiversity.

Amendment 31 does address the skills crisis. You agreed with me in Stage 2, Cabinet Secretary, that this is a major problem and highlighted that the authority is not a training provider. However, I think you’ve misunderstood me and the evidence. Stakeholders were clear with the committee that the development of the authority could lead to an even greater skills shortage. Rather than becoming a training body, the authority should play its part in seeking to promote skills development, such as by co-operating with universities on apprenticeships and co-operating with our colleges.

Whilst we will be supporting all the other amendments in the group, I cannot back No. 20, sorry, Delyth. Bearing in mind that we have left the European Union, why are you and Plaid Cymru trying to introduce a legal requirement to have regard to EU law and policy relating to climate change? We had that argument many years ago, and the decision stands—we have left the EU. Diolch.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd like to begin by placing on record my thanks to Lewis Owen, Niamh Salkeld and Tomos Rowley for their support with this Bill, as well as several environmental groups that I will mention during these debates.

I'd like to begin by reiterating my support for this Bill's core principles. Although we continue to be firmly of the belief that there are a number of areas where we need to go much further than we currently have in this legislation, this will be an important step forward to provide long-awaited fairness to the many communities that contributed so much to the world's wealth but received so little in return, and have had to live in the long dark shadow cast ever since then, with all of the damaging social and economic implications that ensued. That's a symbol that is incorporated by these tips.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We fully support the aim of this Bill to establish a designated authority with responsibility for overseeing the remedial work of clearing disused tips, and I speak particularly in this group to amendments 30, 18, 19 and 20, tabled in my name. It would be a perverse irony indeed if, in the process of carrying out work to undo decades of harm caused by coal mining, this authority were to inflict new environmental scars. The purpose of our amendments in this group, therefore, would be to place on the face of the Bill various pieces of environmental legislation, both Wales specific and international, to which the authority should have regard while undertaking its responsibilities.

Janet had asked why we were seeking to include EU legislation here. The reason for that is because we want all of the most ambitious legislation relating to the environment to be ones to which we have to have regard, regardless of where that is, because internationally and domestically we have to get the right legislation appearing here. That would include the principles of sustainable management of natural resources that are defined in sections 4 and 8 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016; the most recent future trends reports, under sections 11 and 23 of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015; and all recent international law that relates to climate change policies, like the Paris agreement. We've also included a specific requirement for the authority to have regard to the impact of its work on biodiversity, on nature and the environment, as per the section 6 duty of the Environment (Wales) Act. This would ensure that the work of the authority is held to the most robust standards, and it would eliminate any potential for unintended consequences arising from its duties.

We have sought to clarify the kind of areas in which the authority must take all reasonable steps to minimise the potential disruption to communities who've had to endure more than their fair share of disruption from the presence of these tips—like noise levels, air pollution and access to green spaces. We believe that spelling out these mitigations explicitly on the face of the Bill would go some way towards securing the confidence and the buy-in of those communities. I hope we can all agree that they have more reason than most to be entitled to such reassurance.

When we presented these amendments in their original form at Stage 2—. I don't mean to be using the royal 'we'. When I presented these amendments at Stage 2, the Cabinet Secretary primarily objected to them on the basis that the authority is already bound by public law principles, like compliance with the section 6 duty in the Environment (Wales) Act, and as a result of that I've responded to this by replicating the wording of section 6 in amendment 18, so placing it on the face of the Bill, and that's to remove any ambiguity about the responsibilities of the authority in this area.

The Cabinet Secretary also asserted that sustainable management principles are not strictly relevant to the work of the authority. I would, with respect, disagree there, because the principles are defined in law as the use of natural resources

'in a way, and at a rate, that maintains and enhances the resilience of ecosystems'.

I would argue that this maintaining and enhancing should encompass activity relating to the extraction and disposal of such resources, especially given that in the process of so doing, that would directly impinge on the future resilience of the landscape of the cleared tips. It's for this reason, therefore, that I have retabled these amendments. I hope Members will support them.

And just briefly, Dirprwy Lywydd, just to close on Janet's amendments, whilst I understand totally the rationale behind amendment 50—it's absolutely vital that the protection of human welfare is at the forefront of the design of the authority's remit—I am concerned that the definition of 'a conflict' with respect to the authority's main functions is perhaps not sufficiently clear. It could have unintended—and I totally accept they would be unintended—consequences of potentially diluting authorities' responsibilities on maintaining biodiversity. So, I'm inclined to abstain on that amendment, but I would welcome the Cabinet Secretary's views on how this very valid issue could be addressed satisfactorily within the existing provisions of the Bill. Diolch.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I simply want to say a short word this afternoon. [Interruption.] Thank you. I particularly want to thank the Deputy First Minister for the visit he made to Cwmtillery in the aftermath of the slide on the tip there. It's difficult to overstate the terror that you can feel when you feel the slurry coming down the mountainside, when you hear the wind, when you see the people moving from their homes because there is an unstable tip and they are living in the shadow of it.

I speak to that community on a regular basis; people are still terrified in their beds every time it rains. Whenever the forecast says there is going to be heavy rain this weekend or next week, people are terrified. It is incumbent on all of us to create the structures that can meet the challenge of climate change and of disused tips at this time. It is important that we recognise that this Bill is directly addressing some of the most challenging circumstances that the Government is facing at the moment. We need to be able to create this authority to deal with these matters, and I commend the Welsh Government for their speed of action here.

When myself and Huw Irranca-Davies stood at the foot of that tip early in the morning, that Monday morning last November, and we could hear the noise of the wind rushing past us, we knew that this was an urgency that cannot simply be delayed. We need to ensure that not only do we pass this legislation this afternoon, but we ensure that we have the funding available then to provide the remediation that is necessary. I'm very glad that the Welsh Government placed in its budget the funding available to do that. I only wish that every Member here had supported that at the time.

What we need to do then is to be absolutely clear as well that this is a legacy that the United Kingdom Government has a responsibility to support. This isn't simply a matter for the Welsh Government, where you can forget about it in London; this is essential for the United Kingdom Government to support the Welsh Government and ensure that it provides the funds to deliver the remediation. So, I will be supporting this legislation this afternoon, Deputy First Minister, but I will also want us to ensure that we have the resources to move with all due speed to ensure that the people I represent and the people many of us will represent in different parts of Wales are able to sleep safe in their homes. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Before we start on the specifics of the amendments in this particular group, could I first of all put on record my thanks to all of the colleagues who've been involved in very productive discussions at Stage 2 of the committee, which have actually formed the basis of the majority of the Government amendments that have been tabled now at Stage 3?

I'd also like to just reflect, as we get into the details of these amendments, on the important message that my colleague and friend Alun Davies has just laid out. In amongst the detail of these amendments is the importance of actually making sure that the stability of these tips is ensured, and that it's for the safety and the welfare of the communities that live in the shadow of this industrial legacy of our mining past; that's what this is fundamentally about.

I do want to thank also my officials and wider stakeholders as well, but I particularly want to thank all the members of the committees, and particularly Delyth Jewell and Janet Finch-Saunders, for the very constructive way in which they've engaged with my advisers and officials in the drafting of some of these amendments that we'll be discussing here and in the relevant groupings.

I'm pleased that as a Government we've been able to respond to a significant number of the matters raised by Members at Stage 2. As you'll know, we also responded positively to a significant number of the committee recommendations at Stage 1.

If I turn directly now to the amendments in group 1, let me first speak to amendment 17, which is a Government amendment. Amendment 17 requires the authority to consult such persons as it considers appropriate prior to submitting its corporate plan to the Welsh Ministers for approval. The corporate plan sets out how the authority intends to exercise its functions during each three-year planning period. It is an amendment that I committed to bring forward during the Stage 2 debate, and I thank all Members who raised this with me during the course of Stage 2. So, I ask all Members to vote in support of this amendment.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Turning to the other amendments raised by Delyth Jewell and Janet Finch-Saunders—many of which do, indeed, reprise debates that we had in committee in Stage 2—let me start with amendment 31. I understand why this has been tabled. As I've said before, I am very aware that there is a skills gap in this area, and I've spoken about that before, during both Stage 1 and Stage 2. However, in my view, the amendment is unnecessary. Firstly, the authority is not a training provider. There are bodies that already exist to provide specialist training, who are funded for this purpose and they have the necessary skills to provide this. My officials are working, as we speak, with those bodies to create a skills pipeline to bridge the current gap. But, of course, the authority also will play its part within it, but it's not a training provider. So, I would ask the Senedd not to support this amendment as it's very, very important—curiously, for the reasons laid out by Alun a moment ago—that the authority’s resources are not diverted from the core functions that it is there to exercise. There are other bodies better placed to focus on skills development.

Regarding amendment 19, which would impose a duty on the authority to take into account the need to minimise negative impacts on communities, including noise, air pollution and access to green spaces and so on, this amendment is not necessary, because as a public authority, as I've stated before, and Delyth rightly reminded us that I have said this before, the authority must act in accordance with public law principles and it must be mindful of the impact of its actions on those local communities. Indeed, to go further, under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the authority will be required to think about the longer term impact of its decisions, and this will involve working closely, in line with that Act, with people and communities, and collaborating with other bodies as well.

Regarding amendment 20, section 6 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 requires the authority to have regard to reports prepared under sections 8 and 11 of that Act, so that element of the amendment is already dealt with in legislation. This Bill amends the well-being of future generations Act to add the authority to the public bodies subject to that Act. This means that the authority will be required to set well-being objectives, and in so doing, will be required to have regard to the most recent report under section 23 of that Act. Therefore, this element of amendment 20 is also already covered in legislation. And in relation to having regard to the most recent future trends report under section 11 of the well-being of future generations Act, because of the nature of that report, this is something that is more appropriately covered in guidance. Now, this amendment also places the authority under a duty to have regard to scientific knowledge, technology and EU and international law and policy relating to climate change when carrying out its functions. These provisions, I have to say, are very broad and they are open to different interpretations. This could place a significant burden on the authority. The authority is not an environmental body. It will, of course, comply with environmental legislation, but I think we must be wary of placing extensive duties on it that will take it beyond and detract from the protection of human welfare of these communities. Our priority must be focused on making sure that our communities are safe. This is not, primarily, an environmental Bill.

Amendment 49 requires the authority to set out in its corporate plan how it intends to consider biodiversity when discharging its functions. This is unnecessary as the authority is already under similar duties under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016.

With regard to amendment 18, this places a duty on the authority to seek to maintain and enhance biodiversity in the exercise of its functions in Wales, and in so doing, to promote the resilience of ecosystems so far as consistent with the proper exercise of those functions. I would ask Members not to vote in favour of this amendment. It is unnecessary and it is an exact duplicate of section 6(1) and (2) of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, with the only change being the substitution of references to 'the Authority' for references to 'a public authority'. As a public authority, the authority will already be bound by section 6(1) and (2). So, accepting this amendment could cause confusion as to how it sits alongside the existing section 6 duty.

Turning lastly to amendment 50. This amends section 2 of the Bill to provide that, when exercising its functions, where the authority considers a conflict exists between ensuring disused tips do not threaten human welfare by reason of their instability and any requirement to maintain and enhance biodiversity, the former must take priority. Again, this amendment is unnecessary as it simply sets out what is already the case and is therefore duplicative. I will explain why.

Section 6(1) of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 will require the authority, which is a public authority for the purposes of that section, to, in quotes,

'seek to maintain and enhance biodiversity in the exercise of functions in relation to Wales, and in so doing promote the resilience of ecosystems, so far as consistent with the proper exercise of those functions.'

Therefore, the duty to seek to maintain and enhance biodiversity et cetera applies only so far as consistent with the authority’s proper exercise of its functions. Therefore, I would ask Members to vote in favour of amendment 17 and to please vote against amendments 49, 30, 50, 18, 19, 20 and 31.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We've made very strong arguments at every stage of this, so I think let's just go to the vote.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is that amendment 49 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, proceed to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 49 is not agreed.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, amendment 17.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Moved.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 17 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Delyth Jewell, amendment 30.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

It's moved.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The question is that amendment 30 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I vote against.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

There were in favour 27, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 30 is not agreed.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet Finch-Saunders, amendment 50.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I move.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The question is that amendment 50 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. So, we will move to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, there were 12 abstentions, and 28 against. Therefore, amendment 50 is not agreed.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Delyth Jewell, amendment 18.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I move, please.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The question is that amendment 18 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will, therefore, proceed to a vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I vote against.