Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 18 June 2025

302 contributions from 38 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

1. What steps is the Government taking to regulate private companies who manage dwellings? OQ62884

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch. I'm committed to ensuring effective regulation of residential management activities. Rent Smart Wales regulate management of private residential lettings. Our up-and-coming building safety Bill will introduce regulation of those managing building safety risk, and I'm exploring controls on those responsible for managing leasehold blocks and privately managed estates.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thanks for the response, Cabinet Secretary. Prior to 2022, residents at Dol Hendre in Tywyn paid approximately £550 service charge every six months. A new management company has been installed and they have increased the charges to nearly £1,000 every six months. Residents there feel trapped. They must continue paying escalating charges or risk legal action. The increase in service charges has placed significant financial strain on a mostly older, retired or semi-retired community. There is confusion and concern over where service charge funds are being allocated. Dol Hendre is not an isolated example and it's happening across Wales. I know that you're not keen on rent caps, but do you not believe that action must be taken to limit the exorbitant rises seen in service charges by management firms?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Mabon. Thank you for raising that on behalf of your constituents. I think we've already delivered a range of measures to ensure that we effectively regulate residential management activities in Wales more broadly. For example, the introduction of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 places a statutory requirement on landlords to ensure homes are fit for human habitation. I'm also implementing significant reforms to service charges and other important leasehold matters included in the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024, but I am interested in going further—for, example requiring certain minimum qualifications for those engaging in management activity. I'll shortly be consulting on those matters.

Private businesses operating in the rental sector already have statutory requirements on their management activities, but I continue to look at how these can be strengthened. For example, our recent White Paper on adequate housing, fair rents and affordability included a number of measures to increase transparency and accountability in the PRS.

While not being able to comment on a specific case, I'd be very happy if you wanted to write to me with further details on that.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the work being undertaken to improve the workplace culture and standards of management and governance in Wales's fire and rescue services? OQ62852

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Sioned. We're working closely with fire and rescue services to ensure progress against the deeply concerning matters highlighted in the recent independent cultural reviews. I have committed funding to support these improvements across all three services. I will formally consult on governance reform proposals during the summer.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr. As you say, we've had those deeply worrying findings, haven't we, in the culture reviews? Earlier this year, we had a culture review into Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service published, and the majority of respondents said the culture had either stagnated or deteriorated, many describing the service as an operational boys' club, with personal connections favouring nepotism, favouritism and a lack of accountability. While there has been progress in certain areas, staff reported worsening conditions in key aspects such as transparency, leadership and conduct, echoing concerns, of course, raised by the Equality and Social Justice Committee, on which I sit. The report also highlighted serious failings in the way the fire authority provided oversight.

I have received correspondence from several constituents who've worked in the fire service and have shared their experiences with me. One constituent, for example, described failures in the complaints process, including a dismissive attitude towards allocations involving senior figures. Another, after 10 years of service, felt they had to resign after their request to work differently was refused—a request to work differently because a child had been born with a serious health condition. So, what concrete steps are you taking to ensure that the recommendations of this review are implemented in full and these long-standing concerns, which seem to be continuing and raised by staff with me, are finally addressed? Diolch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Sioned. Thank you for raising this important matter. We're working closely with fire and rescue services to ensure progress against those deeply concerning matters highlighted in the recent independent culture reviews. Again, I'd just like to pay tribute to all those who have come forward, and the ones that continue to come forward to you. I do meet regularly with the chairs, the south Wales commissioners and chief fire officers to discuss these matters. I have asked each fire and rescue service to provide regular updates on the development and delivery of their culture improvement plans at the social partnership forum for fire and rescue services. It's something that I've insisted on. The first of those updates was provided in May, and they will continue.

I've committed funding of £350,000 to support improvements in culture in all three fire and rescue services. This includes funding for a comprehensive leadership development programme, training to improve the handling of disciplinary and grievance cases, and a new training and development package for authority members. So, the Welsh Government is also supporting mid and west Wales and north Wales FRAs to establish individual assurance panels, with the appointment of appropriate external experts. So, progress in South Wales Fire and Rescue Service is also being monitored closely by officials, through their monthly meetings with the commissioners, via an intervention oversight board. So, I've now completed the engagement part of the programme with stakeholders on proposals for governance reform. That's included detailed discussions with our social partnership forum, and I'll start the consultation proposals in the next few weeks.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I visited Barry fire station recently and saw what a brilliant job those firefighters do. They put their lives on the line, as, tragically, we saw in England recently, with the death of a firefighter there at an incident. It is vitally important that people maintain confidence in the fire service, and, whilst I welcome the reviews that you have commissioned, to make sure that bad practice is rooted out, it is really important that a positive view and vision is given for the fire service, so that those firefighters in Barry, and across Wales, feel that they are valued members of the emergency services and, ultimately, do a fantastic job.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Andrew. Thank you for that. Firefighter safety and the safety of the public is absolutely paramount. I'm glad you've been able to visit Barry fire station. I've had the opportunity to visit Ely station and meet with some of the firefighters there, and also the cadets. The firefighters do an incredible job working with cadets and the firefighters, hopefully, of the future as well. I think it is really important that we work hard through our social partnership forum to ensure that we have the future proposals for governance reform that we want to see implemented, and to make sure that all the issues and the serious, concerning matters that have been raised through those culture reviews are addressed, and are addressed significantly. But, absolutely, I'd like to pay tribute to those firefighters, who put their lives at risk day in, day out.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Council tax is soaring here in Wales and putting huge additional pressure on already stretched household budgets. We know that councils face difficulties, but now taxpayers will have to foot the bill for substantial 3.2 per cent pay rises for council chief executives for the next financial year. We're already in a situation in which some council bosses earn similar amounts or even more than the First Minister, or even the Prime Minister, and now these salaries are set to rise again. Do you agree with me this is quite hard to justify, and isn't it about time that you considered putting a cap on these salaries? Diolch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Laura. Transparency on pay, especially senior pay, in the public sector is important to maintain trust. It is the responsibility of the local authority to set pay for its senior officers, including the chief executive. The chief executive and other senior post salaries are published annually in the accounts of each authority, and any new post with a salary of over £100,000 must be approved by the full council.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

I think most people appreciate, Cabinet Secretary, that we want people who are talented to head up our local authorities. They're complex bodies with huge responsibilities, but there's no justification for chief executives being paid similar amounts to the Prime Minister of a G7 country. Inflation and other pressures on council budgets are real, and it's important to recognise that the growth in top salaries in town halls should not be an additional pressure on budgets. We know that the number of council employees in Wales who take home over £100,000 in total pay has risen over the last financial year to at least 186. These are payments that most people in Wales could only dream of, and yet they're asked to fund them. In my region, we've seen leisure centres close, libraries close, and we've seen school transport provision reduced as councils set their budgets. And it can't be right that these people have to choose between leisure centers and libraries and paying more in tax, while also town hall bosses take home salaries that they could only dream of. So, what consideration have you given to working with the local authorities to put measures in place so that these top salaries could be brought under control? And what is your message to people in our regions who have seen services cut but also are asked to fund more and more of these top salaries?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Laura. In terms of the pressures on local authorities, just to remind you, the austerity that we have been through over the last 14 years has put a huge amount of pressure on our local authorities. We have done everything within the powers that we have within the Welsh Government to protect local authorities through that period, but it has been incredibly tough, and local authorities are still having to make really tough decisions after those 14 years of austerity.

Local authority chief executives in Wales are responsible for significant organisations and budgets of hundreds of millions of pounds. Local scrutiny of pay is an important part of ensuring that value for money is set against that context. So, every local authority publishes a pay policy statement annually, setting out its policy on pay and remuneration, including details of the arrangements for its most senior staff, and that is approved by full council.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'm sure you agree with me that you have a role to play, though, perhaps, as the Cabinet Secretary in charge, in terms of these amounts getting out of control now, with people being paid more than a Prime Minister of a G7 country.

But, Cabinet Secretary, time and time again, we hear this Welsh Government talk about its commitment to building more homes, yet the reality is that they are not being built quick enough to meet the demand. According to the latest performance reports, just 19 per cent of local planning authorities in Wales are meeting the target to determine planning applications within the preferred time frame. That's a shocking drop from 27 per cent from the previous year. Let's be clear, these delays are not just bureaucratic, they are actively holding back the delivery of much-needed homes across our communities. Developers, housing associations and even local councils themselves are being stalled by slow, inconsistent planning systems. With over 90,000 people on housing waiting lists in Wales, it's not just frustrating, it's unacceptable. So, Cabinet Secretary, what specific action is being taken to improve the speed of local planning decisions across Wales? In particular, how is this Welsh Government supporting local authorities to develop modern digital tools and AI-powered systems to streamline the planning process, reduce backlogs and deliver the homes that people so desperately need? Diolch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Laura. Well, this Welsh Labour Government has invested almost £2 billion this Senedd term, which is a record level of investment, and that is driving that record level of delivery. It'll mean that more people across Wales will have access to the social homes for rent that they need. We've got a record annual budget of £411 million for social housing in the 2025-26 financial year, and that is an additional £81 million compared to this year.

We know we need more homes, and we are doing everything we can, along with the sector. We all have a part to play within this, and that was something that was recognised within the affordable homes taskforce report that came out. I accepted all of the recommendations that I am responsible for, and I am very keen that we do everything we can. We keep pushing on as much as we can, working with others, because this is absolutely a priority of this Government, and it is not just in this Government term, but we know that we need more homes in the future as well. So, it's about doing the work now for those future pipelines. And I am really pleased about the pipelines that we've got at the moment. I would be more concerned if there wasn't that pipeline of projects coming forward. And, again, with that pipeline, we were able this year, again, to give an additional £10 million to kick start the development of 16 new affordable housing schemes across Wales as well. So, we're always looking to do what we can. We need to work together, but, absolutely, this is a real priority. There are some absolutely record levels of investment going in from this Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the recent UK Government spending review claims to take action to return local government to a sustainable financial position. But here, in Wales, our local authorities face a very different reality. While the review boasts of a 3.1 per cent real terms increase in local authority spending power across England, the figure simply doesn't reflect the situation in Wales, where councils are under even greater pressure, made worse by the Labour Government's failure to fully compensate them for the increased employer national insurance contributions. In England, 100 per cent of the cost is being covered. In Wales, it's just 86 per cent. The Welsh Government has had to dip into reserves to plug part of that gap, but local authorities are still left facing millions of pounds-worth of ongoing shortfalls.

Cabinet Secretary, what assessment has your department made of the cumulative impact of this spending review on Welsh local authorities and the services that they deliver, particularly in light of this shortfall on national insurance contributions, which is effectively asking Welsh councils to bail out decisions made by Westminster?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Peredur. We have had extra funding for Welsh Government, which builds on that £1.6 billion provided at the autumn budget. It does mean that we're able to better respond to our priorities and deliver improvements across our public services. From the spending review, we know that we will be in a very different position on the trajectory that we were under a Conservative Government. It is welcome news that UK Government, like Welsh Government, is committed to significant and sustained investment in things like social housing, but we very much want to build on that momentum.

In terms of local authorities and national insurance, the amount of funding for local government was confirmed yesterday in the supplementary budget. In terms of national insurance and in terms of the distribution of this funding between authorities, the distribution sub-group have considered different approaches, and they expect to confirm their recommended methodology over the coming weeks and how that will be distributed.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Okay, diolch yn fawr. Thanks for that clarification and I'll wait to hear how that is distributed, because we all know the complexities in local government. But it does go back to the fact that there is still a shortfall and they're having to do more with less.

But, Cabinet Secretary, I want to move on to another part of the spending review that confirms that Wales's capital budget is on a downward slope. By 2029-30, it will be almost 4 per cent lower in real terms than in 2025-26. But what does that mean for our councils? Capital budgets fund vital infrastructure, such as schools, housing, flood defences, roads and public buildings. So, a shrinking capital grant means that projects stall or become unaffordable; councils must delay upgrades or cut ambitions, and ultimately our communities lose out. So, what assessment has your department made of how this capital squeeze will impact on local authorities across Wales? And more to the point, why are you and other Labour Ministers in Wales not challenging your colleagues in Westminster for delivering a capital settlement that puts our councils on life support? Under a Conservative Government, we heard strong words from Welsh Ministers about this kind of treatment. Where's that criticism now?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Peredur. Just finally, on the first point you raised, again, around local government and national insurance and how that will be done, as I mentioned, it will be through the distribution sub-group. They've been working really hard. They've had a lot of meetings around this, looking at all the different ways of doing that. And I think, as I said, they will confirm the recommended methodology over the coming weeks.

In terms of the spending review, we've only recently had that. We're still looking in detail at that. I'm working with my Cabinet colleague Mark Drakeford, as Cabinet Secretary for finance, and it's important to get through to the detail of all of that as well. Obviously, this Government does everything we can within the envelope that we have to support local government. I meet local government regularly. I was up in north Wales last week, meeting leaders there. They are still having to make difficult decisions following many years of austerity. I very much appreciate that, and it's the conversation that we have, and the partnership that we have, working together throughout this process as well.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

And it is a shame that austerity is continuing under the current Government. Finally, I want to raise the issue of replacement European Union funds. In 2023, Keir Starmer promised to return control of regional funding to Wales, but now the spending review tells a different story. The new local growth fund for Wales will be overseen, not by Welsh Government, but by the Wales Office, an extension of Westminster. Delivery is in the hands of the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, an English department, and the language of 'working in partnership' has replaced any real commitment to respecting devolution. Let's call this what it is: a rebranded Tory policy, top down, centralised and dismissive of Wales.

We were promised not a penny less, and yet Wales is still £1.1 billion down compared to the EU funding we would have received. What's worse is that the new Labour approach continues to sideline the Senedd and the Welsh Government from key decisions about our economic future. In July 2023, Mark Drakeford, then the First Minister and now the Cabinet Secretary for finance, issued a written statement in which he strongly criticised the UK Government's decision to bypass the Welsh Government in the context of regional aid, seeing it as an example of a fraught relationship between the two Governments.

Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that this funding model, delivered via Whitehall ministries, bypassing the Senedd, undermines both Welsh democracy and the ability of our councils to plan strategically? What representations has your Government made to the UK Government on this issue? And perhaps more crucially, why has the Welsh Government accepted this approach without serious protest when, not long ago, it condemned the very same model under a Conservative Government?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Peredur. The UK Government has confirmed that Wales will receive around £630 million over three years and, over the coming weeks, we'll be discussing the detail of this funding with the UK Government, with a view to working with Welsh partners, including local authorities, to develop a new Welsh programme from April 2026, where we'll be working with the UK Government to put arrangements in place to ensure that the Welsh Government can take decisions about how its funding is used to support our economic ambitions and bring prosperity to all parts of Wales.

In terms of working with local government, I'm really pleased that, tomorrow, myself, the Prif Weinidog, the Welsh Local Government Association leader and the WLGA presiding officer will sign a strategic partnership agreement between Welsh Government and local government in Wales. That agreement was formally launched at the WLGA's annual conference, and I think it'll be a testament to our shared commitment to work together to deliver for the people of Wales. And that's how we work together within Welsh Government and local government as well, with that shared partnership, and I'm really pleased that we'll be able to sign that tomorrow.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on proposed changes to how the installation of heat pumps for new and existing housing is delivered? OQ62873

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Vaughan. We are currently consulting on changes to air-source heat pump permitted development rights for domestic properties. Subject to the consultation response, we will be seeking to introduce changes to the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 by the end of the year.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Fantastic. I know this is a bit niche, but it's actually quite important because older air-source heat pumps were noisy, so there was a rule within our planning rules that basically meant you had to have a large gap between a heat pump and a neighbouring property. That meant that, essentially, for terraces or semi-detached properties, it was very hard to install, whether new or retrofit, a heat pump.

England recently confirmed it would change its planning rules to enable a new generation of quieter and more efficient heat pumps to be fitted and retrofitted to properties. Similar progress here in Wales would be good, both for climate and energy efficiency. There would also be an economic opportunity and price efficiency in expanding demand for heat pump products. It's good to hear that progress will be made by the end of the year. Can you provide more clarity on when that would come and when the change in planning rules could actually lead to more heat pumps being introduced?

I know that social housing providers, for example, want to introduce these products into a range of existing properties. It would make a real difference. And, of course, I'm interested in where these could be manufactured and delivered. So, can you provide greater clarity on when a decision could be made here in Wales, on changing our own planning rules, to enable a much greater level of retrofit and new homes to take advantage of air-source heat pumps?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Vaughan. Well, the Welsh Government recognises the important role air-source heat pumps play in responding to our climate emergency and progression towards decarbonisation goals. We recognise that permitted development rights restrictions make it difficult for some homes to install heat pumps without planning permission, and the proposed changes outlined in the consultation aim to remove those barriers to installation, thereby supporting the wider adoption of heat pumps across Wales.

As you rightly say, the installation of heat pumps guidance was introduced in 2012. As you say, heat pump technology has changed since then, and the consultation is proposing to remove that 3m rule. Our consultation closes on 1 July, so I'd encourage as many people as possible who haven't yet, and who have an interest in this area, to do so. As I said, we are aiming to introduce the changes by the end of the year. The UK Government have brought into force their changes. They started a little bit ahead of us in the consultation, but they brought that into play from 29 May this year. We expect there to be close alignment between the permitted development rights in both countries, and I will certainly keep you and the Senedd updated when I know the date of those likely changes in due course.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

In 2024, 60,000 certified heat pump installations took place across the UK—but I use the word 'certified' loosely—up 43 per cent on the 2023 figure, to reach 275,000. This remains far behind the target of 600,000 installations by 2028. Now, I've repeatedly raised concerns on behalf of constituents and other residents in Wales, who—. I think they're seeing me as the go-to person now, because a lot of people are contacting me about this issue of failed heat pump installations, particularly under the ECO4 scheme. People have reported increased energy bills, being left without heating or hot water due to faults, and significant costs incurred to correct the damage caused by bad installations. It's not good enough. It is causing considerable stress to many residents across Wales and the wider UK.

Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that where taxpayers' money is being used to fund the installation of heat pumps in residential properties, the duty to ensure that works are completed to a high standard should rest with those providing the grants to pay these companies? And I have to say, there are some very spurious companies out there now doing these schemes. Can I write to you, Cabinet Secretary? I've asked permission of those complaining—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You have asked a few questions now. Can you bring your questioning to an end?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I've asked for the permission of those people on whether I can share their information with you, and they've agreed. Can I write to you on this? Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Janet, for raising your constituents' concerns. I'd always be happy to receive those concerns, and if you'd like to share that with me and my office, that would be very welcome.

In addition to reviewing our planning rules around heat pumps, we're also strengthening our public information and advice, addressing skills and supply chain issues, and we're working with the UK Government to make the green choices the most cost-effective choices. So, I think, if you could send me those concerns, I'd be very glad to receive them.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'd like to thank Vaughan for raising this very important issue. I've had a lot of correspondence from constituents about installing heat pumps, which they are finding very difficult, as has already been discussed. As well as the 3m rule that you've already responded to, the most recent correspondence I've had has been on a distance of 5m from the pedestrian highway, so I wondered if that was included as well in this consultation, because obviously we do want to encourage people to put in heat pumps, because of them being environmentally friendly. So, I wondered if you had any knowledge about that.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Julie. I know that there's a growing number of households looking to invest in low-carbon heating, for both environmental reasons and to stabilise future energy costs. The current regulations are seen as a barrier to deployment for those who are ready to switch. As I said, as part of the ongoing consultation, we are proposing to remove that 3m rule completely. Our proposed changes to the planning system should smooth the way for many households, while ensuring that heat pumps are not located in inappropriate locations. The current permitted development rights do not permit air-source heat pumps on a house where it is located on a wall or roof fronting onto a highway. This restriction is focused primarily on limiting the potential impact on the visual amenity and character of an area. The current consultation does consider the removal of the restriction of locating an air-source heat pump on a front wall on the highway—obviously not in a conservation area—and I would encourage you and your constituents to make sure that you have the opportunity to fill in the consultation, which closes on 1 July.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

4. What is the Welsh Government's guidance on the provision of public toilets by local authorities? OQ62857

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Local authorities are legally required to have a local toilets strategy. The Welsh Government has provided comprehensive statutory guidance to support this requirement. Local authorities are wholly responsible for decisions on whether they provide public conveniences and how they are managed.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In 2022, I led a debate in the other Chamber calling on the Welsh Government to ensure the provision of Changing Places toilets across Wales for people whose needs are not otherwise met, and the motion was passed unanimously. In February, following Mencap Cymru's successful application for funding from the former UK Government's shared prosperity fund to install Changing Places toilets in north Wales, I was delighted to attend and speak at their official opening of the new Changing Places toilet in Corwen sports pavilion. A big 'thank you' is owed to both Mencap Cymru and Corwen Town Council for making this happen.

However, efforts to install Changing Places toilets continue to face barriers. In Conwy, for example, no suitable location could be secured due to high maintenance costs and consultancy fees, and even attempts to partner with third sector and commercial venues failed. So, will the Welsh Government finally take action to address this social justice and disability rights issue two decades after it first said it would? If so, how and when will it tackle the barriers preventing the installation of Changing Places toilets across Wales by or in partnership with local authorities?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you for raising this important issue and for highlighting the refurbished toilets in Corwen and the work that went into that. I believe that it's a fully accessible dementia-friendly toilet pod, which is great to hear about. The Welsh Government is committed to promoting community participation and active citizenship for disabled people, and that includes removing barriers such as limited availability of facilities like Changing Places toilets. We expect local authorities to continue to take every opportunity to talk to the public and representative groups about the challenges that they face in accessing local toilet facilities, and equally to key partners such as town and community councils to listen and seek views on their involvement in identifying and delivering sustainable solutions. So, there are opportunities. We do have our statutory guidance, which emphasises the need to make better use of existing toilet facilities beyond a focus on traditional public toilets as well, given the financial challenges of providing and maintaining this type of facility.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'm really pleased that Theatr Clwyd will be incorporating a Changing Places toilet in their newly modernised building as well, going forward. Public toilets are vital, but as they're not part of the statutory duty of the council and many councils are really struggling following years of austerity and cuts, many have passed them on to town councils and other organisations. I understand that the SPF Visit Wales Brilliant Basics funding has been used for toilets and was really welcome, but both capital and revenue funding is needed for public toilets, which makes them unaffordable in the current climate, where councils are asking, 'Do we cut libraries or toilets?' Modern public toilets are better and preferred by the public where they're staffed in a well-lit building and are accessible. Cabinet Secretary, can more be done with private business owners or other public buildings, going forward? Can you suggest any other ways we can keep public toilets open? Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Carolyn. Thank you for that, and also for highlighting the new public toilets in your area as well. Comprehensive statutory guidance has been produced to help local authorities develop their local toilet strategies. The focus in this guidance is to make better use of existing toilet facilities that could be made available to the wider public, beyond a focus on traditional public toilets, as I mentioned, particularly given the financial challenges of providing and maintaining this type of facility.

It's the aim that local authorities will consider the wide range of existing toilet facilities available in both public sector and private sector buildings when developing their strategy. It's more important than ever to encourage creative solutions; I think that was something that you're suggesting. It's important that we do encourage that creative thinking, because we know how important toilet facilities are in terms of making sure that people have access to those facilities, particularly in terms of being able to go out, knowing where they're able to access those facilities as well, to feel safe and secure that they can go out.

Local authorities are encouraged to consider other mechanisms available to them, such as community asset transfers, empowering town and community councils and social enterprises to take responsibility for managing stand-alone public toilets if proposals are sustainable. To assist with sustainability, the Welsh Government has worked with the UK Government to ensure that stand-alone public toilets in Wales now receive 100 per cent relief from business rates.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

5. What plans does the Welsh Government have to alleviate the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities before the end of this Senedd? OQ62874

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Cefin. My priority is to deliver more affordable homes across Wales, and we have allocated record levels of funding during this Government term. We are working closely with partners as part of the Dwyfor second homes and affordability pilot to apply and evaluate a range of interventions in specific Welsh-speaking communities.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Safeguarding the future of our Welsh-speaking communities by ensuring fairness in the housing market was a central part of the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. However, the work to alleviate the impact of the housing crisis on these communities remains unfinished, and the lack of affordable homes continues to drive families and people from their communities, including in the county where I live, Carmarthenshire, which has seen a decline in the percentage of Welsh speakers from over 50 per cent in 2001 to under 40 per cent in 2021.

With regard to the recommendations on housing made by the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities, although it is encouraging to hear that the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the Welsh language at the Urdd Eisteddfod agreed in principle with those recommendations, unfortunately there was no clear timetable for the implementation of the recommendations. Cabinet Secretary, our Welsh-speaking communities are facing a crisis today, and delay is not an option. So, will you commit to making progress on any policy to alleviate the housing crisis in our Welsh-speaking communities before next year's election?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Cefin. I absolutely—along with you and others here—want to see the Welsh language thrive across the whole of Wales, and I do understand the challenges the language is facing in its traditional heartlands, as you mentioned. I very much welcome the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities's comprehensive report, and the cross-Government discussions and co-operation undertaken in preparing our response. This is very much recognised as collective responsibility that we have across all of the Cabinet for the Welsh language.

I fully understand the importance of sustaining our Welsh-speaking communities, and the important role that housing policy can play. As you mentioned, I accepted all the recommendations relevant to housing in the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities's report, and we've already been working for some time, actually, on those recommendations, and continue to prioritise that work. I know that my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language has agreed to make an oral statement, I believe, in the autumn on the work of the commission and our response, but we are doing a number of things already within my portfolio.

I mentioned the Perthyn project; it's a significant part of the plan, where funding is available to empower communities to develop social, economic and housing solutions. To date, there have been four rounds of the Perthyn small grant scheme, and 65 grant allocations have been made to support and establish new social businesses or community-led housing projects. We also provide a specialist advice and support service to help mentor communities and support. So, there is work going on, and, as I said, my Cabinet colleague will be providing that oral statement in the autumn term.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary bring forward proposals to improve local democratic engagement and increase participation before the next local elections in 2027, given that turnout in many local government elections has been less than 40 per cent? OQ62881

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Adam. We should all support boosting democratic engagement. We are delivering on our programme for government commitment to reform local government elections to tackle the democratic deficit. The elections information platform, democratic engagement grant and Curriculum for Wales will all help people play their role in the 2027 elections.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Turnout at local elections—and, indeed, at Senedd elections—continues to be far too low for a healthy, functioning democracy. The Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 enables pilot schemes to boost participation. Will the Minister use the May 2027 elections to test a range of measures? It could be online, text voting, pop-up polling stations in supermarkets, et cetera.

The best method for boosting turnout, of course, is universal civic duty voting, also known as compulsory voting. Will she confirm that the same Act permits a compulsory voting pilot? Will she begin the scoping work now, so the next Government will be in a position to test the merits of this approach to improving the health of our democracy?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Adam. Absolutely, it's important that we take every opportunity to raise, as we all should, the importance of voting in elections, and particularly so when we come to our own election, but also local government elections, where we know that's so important. I think we all have a role to play as well. I'm very keen that we all do it ourselves.

We talk to young people in particular, and all our other constituents, about the role that we do here. But also, I think it's important to tell people what local councillors do as well. Sometimes, I think, as politicians, we always like to say we can do everything, but, actually, we have local councillors who are elected on councils, we have our MPs as well, who do different roles.

I personally very much valued the opportunity that I had when I was at school to go and visit Newport civic centre and see a debate taking place there. I think that's really important, if we can try to encourage that as well, to engage young people in the important role local councillors play.

In terms of civic duty voting, I think any proposal that boosts democratic engagement merits support and very much careful consideration. We'd not be able to make such a change during the current Senedd, but I'm sure it will be an issue that will continue to be debated. Perhaps you could write to me further on the issue around the pilots in particular, and I could respond to you accordingly as well.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the support available to homeowners whose properties are affected by RAAC? OQ62886

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Heledd. I recognise how difficult the situation is for all residents affected by RAAC in both private and social homes, and the strain this is having on individuals and families. We continue to work with housing associations and local authorities, who may be able to offer financial support to home owners.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that response. As you'll be aware, for over a year, I've been raising the plight of a small group of home owners in Hirwaun who have RAAC. Home owners have told me that they live in fear and constant worry about how they will find funds to make their homes safe, and they're fearful that their ceilings will collapse in on them. In the recent ITV news broadcast about the issue, Welsh Government’s response was:

'We...continue to monitor the situation and would strongly encourage all homeowners to undertake surveys to identify the extent of the RAAC within their homes'.

But the home owners in question are mostly over 75, some are in their nineties, who purchased their properties in good faith under the right-to-buy scheme. They primarily rely on state pensions and cannot afford the surveys, nor do they qualify for local authority grants. Will you now please commit to meeting with Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and the residents to find a solution and put an end to their constant worry and fear that their roofs will collapse on top of them?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Heledd. Thank you for raising this, as I know you have in the past as well—as you say, you’ve been working on this. I’m aware that Trivallis has commenced its RAAC remediation programme for its housing stock at the Gower estate in Hirwaun. I understand that the installation of the safety deck system is intended to provide a permanent structurally sound solution, rather than a temporary fix.

In respect of private home owners, I’m aware that the local authority has engaged with home owners and offers that grant assistance via its normal financial support arrangements. It’s my understanding that some home owners have not yet undertaken any surveys, as you mentioned. I would strongly encourage those who are able to to undertake those surveys and to engage with local authorities, who are ready to support them.

I also understand that Trivallis has offered affected owner-occupiers and private landlords access to their contractors, which helps to reduce costs for home owners by removing overheads. We’re not able to offer direct interest-free loans to cover the costs of works, but there are a number of funding options, grants and loans, that may be available through the local authority, subject to that eligibility criteria. So, I think, in that instance, the discussions with the local authority will be really important.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 6, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

8. What action is the Cabinet Secretary taking to improve the effectiveness of the warm homes scheme? OQ62879

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

I have agreed several changes to the Nest scheme, including the introduction of a crisis route, to increase the number of households it can support. Officials continue to monitor the scheme’s performance and will bring forward further recommendations as required.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Over some time now, constituents have contacted me as they’ve experienced problems with third party installers with regard to the Warm Homes programme. That could include poor workmanship or work not being completed correctly and also poor communications as well between the company and the property owner. I wonder if this is something that you are aware of, that others have contacted you about. Is there criteria for installers, and if so, could that list be modified or do the criteria need to be changed? Also, what should residents do if they are experiencing poor workmanship from contractors via the scheme?

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Russell. And thank you for raising that. We do have monitoring and evaluation of the Warm Homes Nest scheme, and that will help us to ensure that it achieves its objectives in lowering bills for vulnerable households and lift them out of fuel poverty. I will publish a report on the progress at the start of the autumn term, covering that activity during the preceding financial year.

You are right, it is really important that we protect our residents from poor workmanship. We have quality assurance. In Welsh Government, we are committed to ensuring that our consumers are protected against the installation of measures that are unsuitable or delivered to that low standard. Installers are independently quality assured, ensuring PAS 2035 standards, which is the official framework for whole-house retrofit in the UK and outlines their process and best practice within the industry. British Gas, our delivery agents for the programme, have been working closely with contractors to ensure that they upskill their workforce as well, and that we learn any lessons from any past schemes as well. And contractors provide training and support to all those working on the scheme to ensure that they are competent in delivering the requirements of PAS 2035.

There is that evaluation and also that quality assurance into the scheme, so I suggest that your constituents, in the first instance, write in to or contact the delivery agent—that as being British Gas—and also report it in terms of the Nest scheme as well. But you're always able to write to me, if you see a particular pattern. I'd be very grateful if you would do that as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We'll move on now to questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is to be asked by Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. How does the Government ensure that learners in schools and colleges are taught effectively about Welsh democracy? OQ62853

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Citizenship is at the heart of our curriculum. Developing understanding of democratic roles and responsibilities as citizens is mandatory in the Curriculum for Wales. We are working with the Electoral Commission to develop resources for schools ahead of the 2026 elections.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you. Last week, when we were discussing new Government guidance on diversity and inclusion for political parties, reference was made to the importance of removing barriers that prevent people from all backgrounds from participating in the democratic process. And in responding to points raised about the effect of the absence of political education, it was said that it was important that the Government, and you as Cabinet Secretary for Education, did look at the curriculum as a means of educating our young people to become citizens.

It's clear from speaking to young people that they do feel that the education that they currently receive is not adequate in that regard, and I was shocked to hear young people in Merthyr recently saying, when questioned by the BBC, that they weren't aware that they could vote at 16 years of age.

Learning about citizenship is a mandatory area of learning and experience in the humanities part of the curriculum, as you said, but we need to go further, and I have previously suggested a number of approaches whereby we could ensure that the curriculum does provide more specifically for political education. It's a period of electoral reform. Do you agree, therefore, that this is the perfect time to ensure the best possible democracy for Wales by taking meaningful steps to raise awareness among our learners in schools and colleges?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank Sioned for her supplementary? As she's highlighted, citizenship is at the heart of the curriculum. One of the four purposes, as she'll be aware, is to ensure that learners have opportunities to become ethical and informed citizens of Wales and the world, and understand and exercise their democratic responsibilities and rights. As she's already highlighted, this is a mandatory part of the humanities area of learning and experience, and the statements of 'what matters' are clear that learners should be supported to learn about citizenship and active citizenship, about different forms of governance, enabling learners to understand their roles and responsibilities in a democratic system.

Now that 16 and 17-year-olds are eligible to vote in Wales, I agree with her that this is more important than ever. I would say that we are taking meaningful action in this space. We have the democratic engagement grant, which is funding projects that are delivered in the classroom to support young people to participate in the democratic process. That includes the digital dialogue sessions, which I know she's been part of, and which I've been part of in my own constituency. It's also involved sessions on tackling misinformation and supporting the city of Cardiff's democracy in action workshop.

We've also got resources on Hwb and the democratic engagement grant. We have allocated £657,093 to support democratic activities in Wales, which is a substantial amount of money. Applications for that grant are currently at the panel appraisal stage, and all applicants will be informed soon whether they've been successful or not. We've also got the Politics Project resources, which are funded by the democratic engagement grant. The engagement with Digital Dialogue has been very significant. Over 4,300 learners have participated in that since its inception. So, we are taking action, and all our action is underpinned by the statutory commitments of our Curriculum for Wales.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, it is great that our young people are being taught about our democratic process, but what are they being taught about their obligation under that democratic process? Far too often we teach people about their rights, but we say nothing about their duties and obligations. Citizens have a duty to abide by the rule of law, an obligation to uphold British values. By not clarifying these duties, we allow cultural division to take hold. Cabinet Secretary, how are you ensuring that all children being taught at our schools are not only aware of the democratic system, but also their obligation to uphold our democratic freedom—in other words, obedience to our democracy? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Altaf. That's an important point, isn't it? That rights come with responsibilities. And I would say that that's a key aspect of our curriculum. We aren't just teaching young people about their rights. The curriculum is also there to make sure that they become ethical and informed citizens of the world. That's a key part of that equation. It is vital that we encourage young people to learn about democracy, but equally important that they realise that that comes with responsibilities, and I would argue that that's already covered by the Curriculum for Wales.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, would you agree that in teaching our learners about the importance of democracy and taking part in democracy, we can draw on our history in Wales and the struggles of working people to obtain the vote, such as the Chartist movement and the Newport rising in the nineteenth century? And in and around Gwent, we are using that history of Chartism to engage our young people, with interactive learning in archive workshops, school visits, digital teaching packs, field-based history through memorial visits and mural visits and much more. And Newport Rising are really bringing history to life for our young children and exciting their interest, for example with a torch-lit march every November, which is attended by lots of young families. Cabinet Secretary, would you agree that these are really good examples in Gwent in terms of how we can engage our learners in the democratic process through the lessons of the past?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much, John, for that question, and it's great to hear about all that work that is happening in Newport that taps into that really proud tradition of the Newport area with things like the Chartists and the Newport rising. And it is vital that young people learn about those things, but of course that's also a really important feature of the Curriculum for Wales as well. We call it cynefin—that sense of people's learning coming from their communities, and that sense of identity that they have. So, that will be different in different parts of Wales, and the curriculum provides the flexibility to foster that sense of cynefin in different parts of Wales.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on funding for schools in South Wales Central? OQ62865

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Decisions on the level of funding available to schools are made by each local authority as part of their overall budget setting. This is in line with the Welsh Government’s policy that local authorities are best placed to judge local needs and circumstances and to fund schools accordingly.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Many schools in South Wales Central face budget deficits and are under considerable pressure. Will you commit today to making sure that, whatever financial agreement is reached on teachers' pay here in Wales, the Welsh Government will fund fully that commitment and that schools will not have to use their own budgets to make up any shortfalls?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I say to Andrew R.T. Davies, and thank you for that supplementary, that I do of course recognise the pressures schools and local authorities are under? I really appreciate the efforts of the education workforce as they continue to operate in such challenging circumstances.

I should remind the Member that, despite the ongoing budget pressures we've faced, we've continuously prioritised public services. The 4.5 per cent increase to the local government settlement for 2025-26 builds on previous increases of 9.4 per cent in 2022-23, 7.9 per cent in 2023-24 and 3.3 per cent in 2024-25. The additional funding that we put into the local government settlement came with a letter that specified that that funding was there to recognise the pressures that local authorities had identified to me, in schools, in ALN in particular, as well as of course social care. Between this year's extra funding and last year's extra funding, the education sector is set to benefit from an additional £2.62 million in funding to help schools, colleges and other settings meet the needs of their learners.

In terms of your specific point about teachers' pay, we have committed to fund the 4 per cent increase through money already provided to local authorities, and full additional funding for the further 1 per cent. So, schools will not need to find the funding themselves, and that is in recognition of the pressures they're under.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Given the significant and growing budget deficits faced by a number of schools in South Wales Central, some reportedly reaching up to £1 million, how can the way of funding education be seen as workable? We know that schools are having to cut staff, merge classes, cancel trips, cut the basics, with budgets stretched to the limit. According to NAHT Cymru, over half of school leaders expect to be in deficit this year. So, what steps are being taken to ensure schools are properly resourced to meet pupils' needs, especially with additional learning needs changes? We hear constantly of teachers saying that they can't meet the needs of pupils. Obviously, the other element, of course, is supporting teacher well-being amid increasing workload, when they're so concerned about those budgets.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Heledd, for that question. You heard me highlight the overall figure that we've provided in additional funding for education over the two financial years. As part of that, we've provided significant amounts of funding going direct to schools through the LAEG, and that money reaches schools directly. We've also, as part of that funding—. And I referred to the ALN pressures; that has been a constant theme raised with me by schools and local authorities. So, we also announced additional funding for ALN as part of that. Since 2020, we've provided over £150 million of revenue grant funding to local authorities and schools to support ALN implementation. On top of that, we've prioritised investing in capital support, particularly for ALN. Over the past five years, there's been more than £170 million invested to improve facilities for learners with ALN. We've also got £750 million in the pipeline as part of the nine-year rolling programme for specialist facilities, including, obviously, special schools and PRUs.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson first of all—Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, too many students are not reaching their full potential when it comes to mathematics here in Wales. Those are not my words, those are the words of Estyn's chief inspector, Owen Evans. His damning verdict comes following a report by Estyn inspectors that found that maths standards across the country are far too low. This, sadly, cannot come as a surprise to the Welsh Government, given our performance in maths has plummeted in the latest Programme for International Student Assessment results under Labour's watch. Maths is, ultimately, the backbone of our future economy, Cabinet Secretary, and we cannot afford to undermine it any further. So, Cabinet Secretary, in light of the latest report, what action is the Government taking, and going to be taking, to turn things around when it comes to maths in our schools?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Natasha. As you are aware, raising standards in maths and numeracy is a central priority for me. We're working very closely with Estyn to put in place additional support to address the concerns outlined in their report, and I've also accepted all the recommendations for Welsh Government that were set out in their report.

So, one of the things we've done is work closely with Estyn to develop additional granular detail on progression in maths, so that every teacher, whether they're a specialist or not, is equipped to develop learners' numeracy skills. This new national professional support, which has been developed with Swansea University, is currently being piloted. You'll have seen my announcement of the curriculum grant funding. As part of that as well, there is specific funding for a project called 'Primed for success', which is designed to support children in their transition from primary to secondary school, which is an area where we know that there can often be difficulties. As you know, we're working as well to put the literacy and numeracy framework on a statutory footing.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thanks for your response, Cabinet Secretary; I do appreciate it. I know we've covered students; I want to move on to teachers now.

Estyn's report pointed to aspects of poor teaching being the reason behind pupils' limited progress. It also highlighted a wide variation in the teaching of maths across the country. This variation has been partly put down to the drop in subject-specific support, with teachers having a lack of professional associations to turn to when it comes to needing advice. Concerns were also raised by school leaders about it being difficult to recruit maths specialists, which was resulting in non-specialist teachers being recruited to teach maths. Other issues highlighted in the report included teachers planning tasks to keep pupils busy, rather than focusing on what they wanted to learn, and not challenging students enough. There was also a lack of understanding about the new curriculum requirements and guidance, with teachers not knowing who to approach to answer questions. This simply isn't good enough, Cabinet Secretary. So, Cabinet Secretary, how are you going to ensure Welsh schools get the maths teachers that they truly do need and the correct support is in place to help them deliver the type of education our youngsters deserve?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you. Obviously, the recruitment of maths teachers is a key part of this, and I'm aware that the Children, Young People and Education Committee has been looking at this issue. Obviously, you've seen how challenging some of the figures are, because, if you're a maths graduate, you have a choice of professions that you can go into. So, a key thing for us is to make becoming a teacher of maths as attractive as possible. I know that you're aware of our incentive scheme, which provides additional payments to students who opt to study to teach maths in our schools. But I know as well that we have to look across the range of reasons why we are finding this challenging. That's why I've announced the strategic education workforce plan. You referred in your question to issues around the quality of teaching. Obviously, we discussed that when we had the Estyn report. Estyn are reviewing the quality of teaching and learning for us as well, but, as I said, we're working very closely with Estyn to provide exactly the kind of detail that you highlighted as being something that teachers are struggling with. That's particularly vital if you haven't got a specialist maths teacher delivering that. They do need that additional support.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I do sit on the CYPE committee, alongside many of my colleagues. Just to recap, some of the things that I've learned since sitting on the committee, which has only been a few months, are: 20 per cent of students are leaving primary school illiterate; maths standards are dropping to worryingly low levels; poor PISA results; a confusing curriculum; a lack of support for teachers; a teacher recruitment and retention crisis; a discredited reading method being pushed into our schools; soaring absenteeism; poor behaviour and violence in our classrooms; and completely skewed priorities, with £12 million of funding going to music, and just £8.7 million in comparison being spent on maths, literacy, science and technology. My question, Cabinet Secretary, after that long list, is simple: is there anything the Welsh Labour Government is getting right when it comes to education in Wales? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Well, I think your previous questions had had a grain of genuine scrutiny in them and you kind of blew it, really, on that third one, because there was so much misinformation there, I don't really know where to start. The figures that the Conservatives quote on children being illiterate—and I really don't like that term anyway—are based on a very old report. The figures that you've provided on funding support through the curriculum grants are incorrect. And let me say, Natasha, that I make no apologies for funding our national music service. I don't want to live in a country where the only children who can afford to learn about music are the children whose parents can afford to pay for it. But, in any event, what you've said is inaccurate: in the areas of maths, science and literacy, we are spending over £23 million across these priority areas as part of the curriculum grants. So, I respectfully suggest to you that you need to go back and look at your figures.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. So, I want to follow the same theme in my first question on the recent mathematics report by Estyn. Its findings were stark, as we've already heard, with it saying that pupil standards in mathematics were too low. What's most troubling, however, is that we've been here before. In 2013, Estyn published a report on good practice in mathematics at Key Stage 4. In 2015, Estyn published a further report, which examined standards in mathematics at Key Stage 3. And as the most recent report states, and I quote:

'Many of the same challenges within the teaching of mathematics remain.'

Now, I know the Welsh Government is a world leader in recycling, but I do think that recycling damning reports into school standards every 10 years is a step too far, and pupils deserve better. Things need to change. So, I presume that other Ministers have worked closely with Estyn, but what will you do differently to every other education Minister who has failed before you?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Well, thank you, Cefin, for that question. And if I can just assure you that I am not in any way complacent about the challenges identified in the Estyn report. What keeps me awake at night is the thought that we might let any children down. Now, I can't comment on how directly or not previous Ministers have worked with Estyn on the issue of maths. I can only say to you that I am working very closely with them on the issue of mathematics. And indeed, we have secondees who are currently coming to us from Estyn, who are working on that granular detail that I described in reply to Natasha.

So, what I'm trying to do with Estyn—. Obviously, they're an independent inspectorate, and that's absolutely right, and they have to shine a light on any areas where they think there are deficiencies, and I welcome that. But I have also tried to develop a system where we really do work together in tackling those problems, and they are coming in—as I say, we've got secondees from Estyn—they're working very closely with us. When we are looking at policies, I'm always keen to get a view from Estyn, because they have a particular bird's-eye view of what is going on in schools.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I would now like to move on to some promises you made for the general election last year, namely that you would provide more funding for education and teachers in Wales. However, at the moment, one in five schools has a budget deficit, and that, at the current rate, is likely to go up to 50 per cent next year and over 80 per cent in the following year.

On the one hand, the teaching unions have expressed dissatisfaction after failing to get clarity from you as to whether the additional funding received by the Welsh Government, following the increase in expenditure on education in England in the autumn statement, is being spent on schools in Wales. Also, the failure of the UK Government to honour in full the increase in national insurance contributions for workers in the public sector means that the Welsh Government will have to draw on its reserves in order to make up the difference. So, schools in Wales are facing funding challenges on two different fronts. So, the question is this: when Labour pledged a partnership in power, did the Cabinet Secretary expect only a year later that that partnership between Labour in Wales and in Westminster would place even more pressure on school budgets, which are already under huge pressures?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much, Cefin. You heard me say in response to Andrew R.T. Davies that, this year and the last financial year, schools and the wider education system in Wales have benefited from an additional £262 million-worth of funding. That is additional to the 4.5 per cent increase in the rate support grant, which also funds education, and if I could say to you that that increase in funding was directly as a result of that partnership in power. When the new UK Labour Government announced their first budget, there was additional funding for us in Wales, which I have been able to invest in our schools.

In terms of, obviously, the most recent announcement, you will have heard of the additional funding that has been announced for Wales, nearly £5 million for Wales, as a result of the most recent announcement by the UK Government. You will be aware that, under devolution, we take the decisions, and I would expect you to support that, on how that money is spent. We will have discussions as a Cabinet on the allocation of additional resources, but I can assure you that I will be a very vocal advocate, as I have been since coming into Government, for more funding for education.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

So, it is not clear whether the consequential funding is going into schools, but we will await, maybe, a statement from you on that.

So, I just want to follow up, in my final question, on the behaviour summit that you held a couple of weeks ago. Following the summit, you published a press release with a headline promising five immediate actions to tackle behaviour in schools. Now, while the content of the press release does outline five areas of focus, the tone and language used suggest that some of these are still in the planning or consultation phase, rather than being immediate implementation. Now, as I wasn't invited, I've heard that there was talk of committing to taking things away and giving other issues full consideration. So, can the Cabinet Secretary clarify which of the five areas of focus announced are being implemented immediately, which remain in the planning or consultation phase, and how are schools expected to benefit in the short term from what appears to be a largely aspirational package?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Cefin. I think I was quite clear in my previous answer that schools have benefited from that consequential funding from the UK Government, and decisions are yet to be made about the most recent funding announcement.

In terms of your questions about the behaviour summit, as you said, I set out five immediate actions that we are actively now working on. I won't repeat those actions here, but it was a really rich and productive day. We spent the whole day in workshop discussions, really looking at the granular detail of the challenges schools are facing with behaviour. There are no easy solutions on this, Cefin. If anybody here thinks there's some sort of magic, silver bullet to tackle these issues, then I'm afraid you are wrong, because these are complex issues. I committed at the summit as well—because we had such a granular discussion that I and the Minister for Further and Higher Education were actively involved in—that we wanted to make sure that we captured absolutely everything that was said at that meeting. So, obviously, I summarised five immediate actions that we could take forward, but we will also be publishing a summary of the other issues that were raised as part of the summit. This isn't a simple issue and, as I say, anyone who thinks that it is a simple issue is mistaken.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mick Antoniw is not in the Chamber to ask question 3.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, we'll move to question 4, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the national behaviour summit? OQ62858

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Following the national behaviour summit, I announced five immediate actions to tackle pressing behaviour issues. The summit outputs will inform a responsive action plan to underpin the future programme of work on behaviour. I am also expediting work on mobile phones in schools with key partners and relevant experts.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. I must say from the outset how disappointed I am that no opposition Members were, indeed, invited to this summit, especially as this is an issue we can all work together on to resolve united. Having looked at the guest list for the summit, I was somewhat surprised to see that there were more than 30 Welsh Government officials in attendance. Cabinet Secretary, I would appreciate a justification of why so many Government officials were needed at this summit. Tackling poor behaviour and violence in our classrooms is, without a doubt, something that each and every single one of us, regardless of our party affiliation, want to see, especially as it's on an upward trajectory.

This behaviour summit was consistently touted as a major step forward in bringing about change in our schools, so I really do hope it wasn't merely a talking shop and a public relations exercise. The written statement published on 23 May was, for me, light in terms of robust action being taken, and your response to my leader Darren Millar's written question on this summit didn't mention a single thing about weapons or violence in our schools. To allay my fears, Cabinet Secretary, can you please outline some of the solutions that we can expect to see immediately to tackle bad behaviour in our schools as a result of this behaviour summit? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Natasha. You tabled a written question about the summit, where I indicated I was very happy to brief you, Cefin Campbell and Jane Dodds, as well as opposition spokespeople, on the outputs of the summit. So far, nobody has taken me up on that. There were 30 Welsh Government officials at the summit, but the purpose of there being that number of Welsh Government officials was because I had been really clear that I didn't want to have an event where everybody sat there listening while there were policy speeches. I wanted this to be about discussing with people on the front line what we need to do to change things. So, the Welsh Government officials who were there were facilitating and noting the table discussion, and I'm really grateful to them for the work that they did on that. And I think it's quite a surprising thing that you've alighted on, really.

I don't agree with you that the press release was light. We set out five immediate actions that we would be taking. As I said to Cefin, I want to make sure that we capture absolutely everything that was said at the summit on the different tables to make sure that everybody's issues and ideas are fed in. Ahead of the summit, we had the round-table on violence in schools, and I was very grateful to the police and others for participating in that. That also provided us with actions. One of those will be to review the guidance in this area, although, as I've told you before, schools can already immediately exclude somebody who is found to have a weapon in school. We also discussed at the round-table the work that's being done in Cardiff, for instance, on their weapons framework. So, we're keen to learn from good practice in that space, and also to work with the work that's being done to promote a Wales without violence. So, there are many actions arising from the summit. There's only so much that you can put in a press release, and I'll repeat that offer again to brief you and Cefin, and, indeed, any Members who would like to have more detail on the work that we did on the summit. And if I can just take this opportunity, Llywydd, to thank everybody who attended. These are really difficult, knotty issues, but we had a really inspiring, uplifting day, where everybody rolled their sleeves up and cracked on with trying to find solutions to complex problems.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Laura Anne Jones is not here to ask question 5.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I know it's a sunny day out there, but I do expect Members to be in the Chamber when they have tabled questions.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 6, therefore.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I'm glad you're here, Joyce. Your question, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

6. What is the Welsh Government doing to support adult learners in further education in Mid and West Wales? OQ62859

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

The Welsh Government is boosting financial support for adult learners from September 2025, with Welsh Government learning grants up to £1,919 to help cover essential costs. Medr funds further education colleges and local authorities to provide a range of learning opportunities for adults, including essential skills, English for speakers of other languages, and vocational skills courses.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. I know that that announcement will come as really good news for those individuals who want to return to learning. I'm really pleased to see the grant is also non-repayable, and it's also been increased to help students with the current crisis in the cost of living for many of those students. So, do you agree with me that providing grants such as this demonstrates that the Welsh Government is committed to supporting adult learners to remain in or return to education and thus raising not only their own expectations and futures, but those of their families?

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank Joyce Watson for that supplementary question, and I absolutely agree with what you said there, Joyce. That's why I was so delighted, on 2 June, to be able to announce that, for eligible learners aged 19 plus continuing or starting study in the academic year 2025-26, our Welsh Government learning grant for further education had been increased in line with inflation. Until now, learners have received up to a maximum of £1,500 to help them with the cost of studying a course up to and including level 3, and that amount has actually remained static since 2012. So, I was really delighted to be able to increase that and to increase it by around a third, which, I think, gives a substantial amount of extra help. So, that figure now will rise up to £1,919, and I think that additional £419 will further help those from lowest income households to reduce the financial barriers associated with study, and it demonstrates my continued commitment, and the Welsh Government's continued commitment, to ensuring learners at every stage of their lives can access education. In addition to that, then, we'll be undertaking a full review of the Welsh Government learning grant to mirror our review of the education maintenance allowance, to consider whether, in addition to this uplift, the minimum household income threshold should also be raised in line with inflation, so we can bring even more learners in to benefit from that.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the funding of school building maintenance? OQ62869

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

School building maintenance is the responsibility of local and diocesan authorities, who are best placed to manage their education estates. The Welsh Government continues to support them in this function with £286 million-worth of capital maintenance funding across schools in Wales over the last 10 years.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you may remember, some time ago, I raised the issue of St Monica's school in Cardiff, which, for a number of years, had been surrounded by scaffolding. Indeed, a number of the children there had started and ended their schooling at the school with scaffolding still around the building. Thankfully, following interventions by the council, that has now been taken down and the works have been completed—but it's not the only school in Cardiff, as you might've seen from the recent coverage about Roath Park Primary School, for example. So, my question, Cabinet Secretary is: what steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure that councils such as Cardiff undertake the remedial and maintenance works as swiftly as possible? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much, Joel. As you've highlighted, there are a number of schools in Cardiff that are in a poor state of repair. I went to see Albany Primary School in Cardiff, which is in that position. I know that Cardiff Council are currently under unprecedented pressure across their education estate and are prioritising their capital funding towards boilers, urgent and managed health and safety and contingencies. But if I can just say to you that I am meeting with Cardiff to discuss this issue. I will want to understand, you know, what those pressures are and the extent to which the local authority is prioritising investment in its school buildings.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

8. How does the Welsh Government ensure children with Tourette syndrome receive appropriate support in school? OQ62878

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Through our reform of the education system, we are supporting children with Tourette syndrome to engage, learn and thrive. Our new curriculum, additional learning needs system and whole-school approach to mental health and well-being are creating a change to the school environment that supports all learners to reach their full potential.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. One in 100 people are living with Tourette's and I've recently been contacted by a constituent who has been seeking a diagnosis and assistance for her son, but has been passed between professionals with little progress made. She's been disappointed by the lack of support from the child's school and says there's a total lack of understanding as well about Tourette syndrome.

May I ask what conversations have you had with the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being regarding Tourette syndrome and ensuring that children receive a timely diagnosis? And what plans do you have to improve the quality of training on Tourette syndrome and other tic disorders for teachers and support staff?

I would just like to say that Tourette.org have a really good resource with a little test at the end, which I did, and I didn't quite get the 80 per cent, but I'll be doing it again, and I learned an awful lot. Thank you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Carolyn, for that supplementary. I haven't discussed Tourette's specifically with Sarah Murphy, but I have discussed with her and with Jeremy Miles the challenges that we're facing with children waiting for a neurodevelopmental assessment and the impact that's having on their education. And I should say—and we've reiterated this numerous times to schools—that children do not need a diagnosis in order to have support in school. So, I think that's an important point in this case.

In terms of training, there are links on Hwb that take school staff to the e-learning resources available via the National Neurodivergence Team and Tourettes Action, and that link is to education support and also provides access to communities of practice covering Tourette's and more generic advice on supporting children who are neurodivergent with a range of co-occurring conditions in school.

As a Government, we've asked Education Support to develop a pilot piece of professional learning for us, which is starting in the autumn. That will cover neurodiversity, mental health and child development. So, that should hopefully help upskill school staff in supporting all learners who are neurodiverse.

If I can say as well, thank you for sharing the resource with me on Tourette's. I didn't have time to do the training because I was preparing for these questions, but I am going to do it at the weekend, and it was very helpful to see. So, diolch yn fawr.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

9. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that parents have the freedom to choose which school their child can attend? OQ62880

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

The school admissions code for Wales explains that admission authorities must make arrangements enabling the parents of children in their area to express a preference for a school and to give reasons for that preference. Admission authorities must comply with parental preferences where there are spaces available.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate that the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 currently remains the foundation for the home-to-school transport framework, and that's currently out for consultation, if I've got that right.

This is an issue I've raised with you before, but under the existing system, free school transport must be provided to the nearest Welsh-medium school, even if there's an English-medium school that's closer to that child's home. Now, that's the right thing to do, because that's based on the duty to promote access to Welsh-medium education. But if the reverse is the case, and there's a Welsh-medium school before an English-medium school, then often it's the case, certainly in my own local authority area, that the local authority will not provide that free school transport to the nearest English-medium school. Now, I wonder if this is something that you're examining as part of this consultation. Often, it comes down to the definition in the guidance of the nearest suitable school. Often, local authorities, they decide what that definition is, rather than it being set out in the Welsh Government guidance. I wonder what your views are on this issue, and whether this is something that you could examine.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Russell, for that question. As you've highlighted, the guidance on the learner travel Measure is out for consultation at the moment, and I'd encourage you to feed in any views through that. Part of the challenge with the learner travel Measure has been, I think, a level of inconsistent application of that, and part of the reason for this change to the guidance is to try and get more consistency with local government in terms of the implementation. I think that's really important. You may be aware that Ken Skates and myself had a learner travel summit where we focused on some of these issues, and indeed the issue of consistency across local government was one of the actions arising from that. I mean, in terms of the specifics, obviously I would need to know a little bit more about the school in question. So, I'd suggest that either you write to me or to Ken Skates and we can follow that up.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. All questions on the list have either been answered or weren't asked today.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 3 is next, topical questions. I've selected one topical question this afternoon, and that question is to be answered by the Counsel General and to be asked by Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact on Wales of the UK Government's decision that post-Brexit regional funding in Wales will be administered by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government rather than by the Welsh Government? TQ1349

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Luke. As the First Minister said only yesterday, in the spending review we have seen £5 billion in terms of public spending. That's money we can spend on the things that matter to the people of Wales, like health, education and quality jobs in our communities. We will, of course, continue to ask for more and insist on our fair share.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Counsel General, but I didn't ask how much money is coming to Wales. I was asking specifically about the post-Brexit funding.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I mean, I noted what the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government said in response to a question from Peredur Owen Griffiths during an earlier session, and I noted as well the evidence given by the First Minister this morning to the culture committee: both have seemingly created a very confused picture.

Now, let's remind ourselves of the timeline here. Ahead of the UK general election, Keir Starmer pledged to restore decision-making powers over the levelling-up and shared prosperity funding to the Welsh Government. Then, during the election, this pledge was revised down to giving Welsh Government an unspecified role in determining how this funding is spent, rather than devolving it in full, and now we're told, through the comprehensive spending review, that power over post-Brexit funds will be retained in full at Westminster, administered by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, with input not from the Welsh Government—and let's be clear on this—but from the Wales Office. Now, the messaging is all over the shop.

On the one hand, the spending review says one thing, and on the other, the First Minister this morning was suggesting that what the spending review set out will not be the case. So, quite simply, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, what's going on? What's the Government's position? And who are we to believe—the Chancellor’s spending review or the First Minister?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Luke. As I said, the UK Government has confirmed that Wales will receive £633 million over three years for local growth funding, and that means that Wales is securing 22.5 per cent of the UK allocation. It is absolutely vital that this funding has greater impact than the legacy shared prosperity fund, which was cobbled together by the previous UK Government, and which, as I'm sure you know, bypassed the Welsh Government and the Senedd. We want to invest these funds in Wales to tackle gaps in regional productivity and address economic inequalities, not just duplicate existing devolved policy and programmes or where there is little evidence of economic impact.

So, exactly similar to the EU structural funds model, we are keen to agree a set of common outcomes with the UK Government against which we can develop a tailor-made Welsh approach with our partners, which fits with devolved policy and the governance and structures existing in Wales. I can give you an example of that. So, we want to take a more integrated approach to be able to look at priorities such as skills innovation and connectivity alongside regeneration-type activity, but the balance should be for us to agree with our Welsh partners. And we've begun work, I'm delighted to say, with those partners, including via our regional investment in Wales steering group, chaired by Carolyn Thomas MS. The group has already considered lessons and international best practice on how we can support our regional and local economies and labour markets, and we've completed a range of work with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, or the OECD as it's commonly known, on how international best practice can be applied in Wales to achieve maximum impact from investment in this policy area.

So, I would say that I think it's really, really obvious that Wales has a major say in these funds, that the funds are very welcome, that we are very pleased to have secured such a large amount of the funding. We've retained 22.5 per cent of the total UK share, which is the same percentage allocation we had for EU funding, and that reflects additional needs and structural weaknesses in Wales that we want to be able to try and address.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Isn't the reality that, while there will be some discussion between the UK Government and Welsh Government, the reality is that Whitehall and Wales's 22 local authorities will be working together to deliver post-Brexit structural funding? That goes against what the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee said, which both I and Luke Fletcher sit on. That goes against Labour's manifesto and what they were promising. So, what does it come down to? Why is UK Labour not engaging with Welsh Labour on the delivery of this? Is it because they don't trust you on the economy, Counsel General?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I have to say, goodness me, I see some brass neck from the Conservatives, but that takes the biscuit. I'd just like to point out that the Government you supported, long and hard, completely bypassed all of the regional arrangements, including the Welsh Government, in setting up the shared prosperity fund and, in doing so, also didn't give Wales its fair share. So, I'm taking no lessons from any Conservative about how to run funds in Wales.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Cabinet Secretary, the First Minister actually answered a question in culture committee this morning. She was very clear that Wales would be running these programmes. She was very clear that the commitments made by the UK Government last week in the spending review, which did breach the Labour manifesto, but not only breached the Labour manifesto, but broke a promise made by Keir Starmer in Wales at a Welsh Labour conference, and we have to be absolutely clear on that, and no amount of explanations cut that. Now it appears that, following an intervention from the First Minister, Wales will be running these matters, run by the Welsh Government, and I think all of us, wherever we sit in the Chamber this afternoon, want to hear a Minister saying that, and saying that clearly, because this has been a damaging few days for this Government and the UK Government.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I'm happy to confirm, Alun, that my understanding, as well as the First Minister's, is that the funds will be administered by the Welsh Government in Wales, following the commitment of Sir Keir Starmer that that would be the case. I wasn't part of the discussion myself, but my understanding is that the First Minister and the Wales Office are in agreement that that is the way they'll be administered.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the Counsel General for that session.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The 90-second statements are next. The first statement is from Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. This week we mark World Refill Day. We can be proud that Welsh Governments have done much to tackle the scourge of plastic pollution, most recently, the ban on single-use vapes, but we still have a long way to go. This week serves as a powerful reminder that by doing the small things we can all do our bit to prevent tonnes of plastic waste from ending up in landfill or polluting our countryside and wonderful beaches.

The Marine Conservation Society 'State of our beaches' report showed an average of 120 litter items per 100m of beach surveyed in Wales just last year. We can, of course, become desensitised to the stats. So, let's just imagine for a moment, if you were to walk across Freshwater West in Pembrokeshire, you could expect to see around 1,440 pieces of litter on that beach alone.

To promote the campaign, the environmental organisation City to Sea is running a five-day challenge, and I'd ask every single one of you to take up one of those challenges and to publicise them widely. They're not difficult. You're being asked to choose one or more single-use plastic items to replace it with a reusable alternative, each day for five days—maybe a coffee cup, carrying a water bottle or a lunchbox instead of a takeaway container, and simply choosing packaging-free grocery options. But it's also a jumping-off point for a broader change, one that sees consumers, business and policy makers work together to embrace reuse and infrastructure that makes refill the norm and accessible for all.

So, this World Refill Day, let's admit that our planet's bin is overflowing and commit to turn the tide on plastic pollution. Whoops.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That was a very gentle 'whoops' at the end there, Joyce Watson. Thank you for that. Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch Llywydd. This week is Learning Disability Week and the theme this year is 'Do you see me?', to highlight the importance of people with a learning disability being seen, heard and valued in society. I was glad to chair the Senedd cross-party group on learning disability earlier today, which serves, I think, such an important purpose in ensuring the voices and views of people with learning disabilities, their family, carers and advocates are heard by the Senedd.

We heard from the inspirational Michael Beynon, a Mencap mythbuster, and Richie Horrigan from Gig Buddies Cymru, about how visibility is not just about being seen, but also about being recognised, respected and included. There are, of course, too many people with a learning disability locked away out of sight in hospitals and mental health units when they should not be. The Stolen Lives Homes Not Hospitals campaign is still finding evidence of human rights abuses, which must be stopped.

A topic we often discuss also in the cross-party group is the importance of respite support for carers. Mencap Cymru runs a respite house in Penparcau in Aberystwyth, and 10 brave support workers will be undertaking a parachute jump in September to raise money to install a new sensory room at the respite house. So, pob lwc to them. Mencap have also this week launched their Wales State of the Nation survey 2025, and I urge all Members to share the survey with their constituents, to ensure that the views of people with a learning disability are seen by policy makers. As Michael Beynon so powerfully told the cross-party group today, being visible leads to understanding; understanding leads to inclusion; inclusion leads to real change.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

This Saturday, the Port Talbot Panthers will proudly travel to Pamplona in Spain to participate in the International Mixed Ability Rugby Tournament, also known as the mixed ability rugby world cup—a global celebration of inclusion, resilience and the unifying spirit of sport. The Panthers are one of four teams from Wales that will be competing, the others being Swansea Gladiators, Llanelli Warriors and, in the women's tournament, Merched Cymru. The tournament brings together teams made up of players of all ages, both with and without disabilities, playing under world rugby tournament rules. From its beginnings in Bradford in 2015 to Pamplona this year, it has grown into a worldwide movement, proving that rugby thrives when everyone is involved and welcome.

The Port Talbot Panthers are the embodiment of that ethos. Formed less than seven years ago to ensure that no-one in Port Talbot was left without a place in the game, the Panthers are more than just a team. They are a community. Every week, players of all abilities come together, not just to train, but to experience that friendship and family culture that has been generated by all involved. Every player is valued, every role is respected and everybody participates. The story of this is on the BBC this week, where Jak Powles highlights that ethos at the club and shows what a difference such clubs can make to people's lives.

The Panthers have built a culture of encouragement, teamwork and mutual respect. Their success reflects the best of Welsh rugby values, where pride, resilience and community spirit are more important than any scoreboard—though on this occasion a win would be great. They will go to Spain not just to compete but to show what rugby can be when inclusion is put at the heart of it. I'm sure that everyone here will want to send their best wishes and unwavering support to the Panthers as they represent Port Talbot in Pamplona. They have a proud community that stands behind them every step of the way.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Good luck, Panthers. Enjoy the experience.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for those 90-second statements.

5. Debate on petition P-06-1365, 'Re-open railway lines to connect the north and south of Wales'

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 5 is next, the debate on the petition 'Re-open railway lines to connect the north and south of Wales'. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion. Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. In September 2023, Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn put on his walking boots and walked to the Senedd. For anyone living in Cardiff, or even a neighbouring county, that wouldn't be remarkable, but Elfed started his walk in Bangor. His 10-day trek followed the old railway line as closely as is reasonable, and he arrived here in time to meet members of the committee when we first considered his petition seeking to reconnect Cymru with a west coast railway. The petition received 12,936 signatures. The petition text reads:

'Re-open railway lines to connect the north and south of Wales.

'Travelling between the North and the South of Wales is always a long journey, especially when using the railway. If a person is traveling between the Bangor and Cardiff, one has to go outside of Wales on rail to be able to complete the journey.

'Wales needs to be connected internally by rail. The plan to do this would be to reopen the Bangor—Afon-wen and Aberystwyth to Carmarthen lines, and integrating them with the Cambrian railway, and the line from Carmarthen on to Cardiff'.

One of the specific asks of the petition was for a scoping and feasibility study for the Bangor to Afon Wen line. This study was included in the co-operation agreement and was published in February this year. One of the reasons that the committee has waited so long to debate this petition was so that the debate could be informed by that report. The report is written by and for engineers, but it is clear about the scale of the challenge. While most of the route identified in the report remains in the ownership of local authorities, there are 79 places where roads cross the route. There are also a number of homes and businesses that have grown up on the track bed, or close to it, and there are large sections that have been converted to popular active travel routes. While a third of the 43.7 km route is deemed to require minimal intervention, there is 15 per cent that would require high or very high intervention.

As the petitioner says, if we are looking to develop the infrastructure in Wales and to use a greener method of travel, reinstating and reopening this railway would be a step in the right direction and would be beneficial for all of the communities situated along the railway, as well as for Wales as a nation. While the feasibility report focuses on light rail and trams, campaigners would prefer heavy rail, which would allow for faster speeds. They believe passionately that the economic, social and cultural benefits of reopening the railway would make the cost worth paying. They would also like to see a similar piece of work done on the feasibility of the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen section of the line.

I look forward to hearing today's debate. I'm aware of the steps that the Welsh Government has taken to build stronger links between north and south. I'm sure that the Cabinet Secretary will want to share any update he has following his consultation on an express bus linking north and south Wales as well, which closed earlier this year. The bus service proposal has been designed to demonstrate the demand for better west coast links, which would in turn support the case for investing in better permanent infrastructure. The feasibility report for Bangor to Afon Wen has given us lots to think about. It has highlighted the areas where running trains would be relatively easy and those where it might be incredibly difficult, but it has given us a common understanding of where those sticking points are and how they might be resolved.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you once again, Carolyn, for your work as Chair of this committee. I remember the days when it only needed 50 signatures where it would start to go, but to think that this petition, again, has received over 12,000. It tells me (a) the work of the Petitions Committee is doing very well, and also (b) that our residents and our constituents value that ability to be able to tap in and make their feelings known. So, well done to the petitioner.

The north to south-west Wales feasibility study has helpfully identified a potential indicative preferred route for the whole length between Bangor and Afon Wen, which is 43.75 km. Only approximately a third of the overall route has been initially assessed to have minimal intervention issues. A quarter of the overall route is provisionally assessed as having either high or very high intervention issues, predominantly arising from the requirement for significant engineering interventions, or where a large number of residential or commercial businesses would be impacted by the reopening of the line. However, this is not for a tram-train line, but a traditional railway line as is used in the Conwy valley or along the north Wales coast. I would be pleased to see the costs for the tram-train line option, and separate costs for a line that would support the movement of cargo.

In terms of the first step, clearly, for me, where I am in Aberconwy, a train line between Bangor and Caernarfon, I can support that wholeheartedly. In May 2000, a report commissioned by Gwynedd county council and the Welsh Development Agency was published called 'Reopening of Passenger Railway Lines, Feasibility Study Phase 1'. It recommended the reopening of the Bangor to Caernarfon section as a standard gauge railway. With as many as 10,000 people living in Caernarfon, there would be huge benefit to those residents of a station in their town linking them to the north Wales line. There would be a lot of customers for TfW too. For example, Caernarfon castle alone receives more than 200,000 visitors annually. This castle is one of the top tourist attractions in Wales and a UNESCO world heritage site, so wouldn't it be absolutely superb if tourists could easily travel there direct by train?

I would be pleased if we could for now, for me, but also I understand the focus behind other parts of this line. In doing so, it would be extremely helpful to have a cost estimate for that option, and others such as taking the route along Lôn Las Menai and considering whether or not it is possible to develop an express bus or even a guided busway along some of the roads that run directly between Bangor and Caernarfon.

Moving on to the wider project, travelling between north and south Wales, as you've rightly pointed out, is something we both do twice weekly. Would I do so using the west coast of Wales line to commute? Probably not, and I'll tell you why. It already takes two hours and 45 minutes to get from Porthmadog to Aberystwyth, two hours from Carmarthen to Cardiff, so that's four hours and 45 minutes of travel. At the moment, on a good day, we can do it in four hours. In short, the proposal is for a north-south line, but I think the reality is that those living along the north or south coast could travel considerably faster on the existing route.

What would be really beneficial for residents in north Wales is an improved road infrastructure. As I've said in this Senedd on several occasions, the road between north and south Wales needs strengthening—and straightening, even—at points. I actually thought, when devolution first came in, one of the key priorities was to make Cardiff the capital, as it rightly is, but also to join up north and south more easily, and that has not been achieved after 26 years of devolution.

Thank you again, good luck to the petitioner, and I will be really interested to see how this progresses. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I would like to start by thanking everyone who signed this petition, and Elfed for his tireless work in progressing the issue. It highlights a deeper truth that the people of Wales want better connections, not only with England, but within Wales too. Plaid Cymru has regularly called for better connections between north and south Wales, and connections that unite our nation, rather than divide it.

The current reality, where it's easier to travel from north to south through England rather than through Wales itself, is not only inconvenient but it's symptomatic of a transport system that has been neglected, is dated, and which is planned to be extractive rather than connective. Our rail network reflects an economy drawn up over decades to extract resources, not to build social and economic cohesion in Wales. There isn't even a single rail connection between north and south, and yet there are eight crossings into England. Transport should serve the people of Wales, not ignore the people of Wales.

In the meantime, the UK Government continues to spend billions of pounds on HS2, a project that they claim will benefit England and Wales, although it doesn't touch upon Wales at all. However, Wales is deprived of any Barnett consequential funding from the project, putting Welsh taxpayers at a clear disadvantage. Today we have heard of further delays in the building of HS2 because of increasing costs—delays that highlight how much we would have received had there been financial justice.

The truth is that this unfair situation is a direct result of the fact that Wales doesn't have control over its rail infrastructure. This is not only unfair, it's unsustainable. The transport Secretary has refused to devolve powers for railways, claiming that there would need to be significant investment to put right decades of neglect. If that is the case, then doesn't it make the demand for funding to improve our railways and to improve north to south connections even more important? The only way of ensuring that we get a fair percentage of transport spend is by devolving powers over railways in full.

Even with a new Labour Government in Westminster, a Government that has acknowledged the long-term underfunding of our railways, the recent spending review makes one thing clear: that they have no real intention to put things right. Indeed, Wales will be the only devolved nation to face cuts to its capital budget, unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is heartbreaking, particularly given that there are Labour Governments on both sides of the M4, but no desire to work together for the benefit of Wales.

That's why Plaid Cymru continues to make clear and ambiguous demands for the full devolution of rail powers to Wales. With those powers, we could build a network that prioritises connections between north and south and between communities across Wales, a network planned to meet our needs, not the needs of somewhere else. An internal integrated rail system should not be a pipe dream for the next generation, it should be a priority for politicians of today. Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

The petition clearly shows that there is lots of support across Wales for improving our railways. I guess the debate we don't really have is about the choices we need to make. Because instead of thinking about just one mode of travel, constantly focusing on rail, we need to think about multimodal, integrated transport, and it will be different in different places.

We do know about rail that it is very expensive. We all deeply regret the decision to get rid of these railway lines in the first place. It shouldn't have happened. But now it has happened, the cost of restoring them is very significant. Once the money is spent once, you can't spend it on something else, obviously. The feasibility study that the petition refers to, into the Afon Wen to Caernarfon line, and looking alongside at the outline costs of a Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line, showed that the indicative costs for restoring both of these is in the region of £2 billion. Now, that's £2 billion we don't have to spend on all the other transport priorities we have in Wales. And as the research clearly shows, the number of passengers that would be carried by these train services would be relatively few, which means that the ongoing cost is not just the £2 billion to build it, but the ongoing subsidy, the revenue cost, for running those services, which would be significant. Now, that may be a choice that the Senedd wants to make, but it needs to be clear, the Government needs to choose, that that's a choice it's making over and above something else.

As the study pointed out, you could achieve significant improvement in public transport, particularly between Bangor and Caernarfon, with a light rail option and a rapid coach service, which would cut some 90 minutes off the current north-south trip. That's a much more modest cost of something like £4.5 million to set up, and a £2 million annual running cost. It's not as romantic as a railway, it's not as nice as a railway. We all like to travel by train, but there are real trade-offs that we need to face, and I think there needs to be an air of reality in this debate. Janet Finch-Saunders's contribution was a classic of its type: it said very little and wanted to keep all options open, while sounding as if she supported all of them. When you're in Government, you can't keep that myth running—you have to pick one.

We are clear that the targets that we face as a Senedd, the commitment we have in the Wales transport strategy, to shift public transport journeys from car into public transport and active travel from 32 per cent to 45 per cent, are at the lower end of what we are going to need to achieve if we are going to meet our next lot of climate change targets. Now, those of you who are coming back to the Senedd for the next term will face another carbon budget, and it's a carbon budget much tougher than the carbon budget that we've faced up till now—the carbon budget that these targets are predicated upon. So, it's going to be harder to keep on doing what we've always done. We have to change course if we are going to meet those targets, because there's no point in us all standing here saying how terrible climate change is and having emergency questions when there's flooding in our areas if we're not going to join the dots and understand the contribution transport makes to that. So, an integrated transport approach is what we need.

One of the things I think we have the opportunity for now, from the bus Bill being passed, and from the upgrade in rail that we've seen under this Government—a huge success story under this Government: the massive investment in the metro in south-east Wales, the plans now for north Wales, and the more embryonic plans for south-west Wales—. Together, that creates a much more hefty system. And in Transport for Wales, as a guiding mind, we will now have a body that is able to make judgments about where it would be better to improve bus services or rail services, how they link them together, and how we make a coherent case for getting people easily from A to B. That's what counts. How they do it, which mode of transport, should be a secondary consideration, and that's my concern about this petition.

It starts off, a priori, with a faith-based assumption that the right answer for Wales's transport problems is opening up all the railway lines. And absolutely, as part of a transport network, the railway lines have a key role to play, particularly light rail, which is cheaper to run and is able to run faster. But it needs to be part of a package of measures, and this petition doesn't think of a package of measures, it simply talks about railway lines. And those who will echo that need to confront and answer the question of how they will also fund a better bus service, how they will also fund active travel networks, how they will reach this modal shift target. Simply putting all our eggs, all our investment, in reopening railway lines, without thinking about the other parts of the network, will not do the job that is being asked of us.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

The introduction to a report by Transport for Wales reported this:

'Transport for Wales...has an aspiration to improve the North to South transport offering in West Wales by exploring the potential for re-opening the disused rail routes between Bangor to Afon Wen and Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.'

Unfortunately, this is an aspiration, with precious little progress made towards making the aspiration a reality, and no sign that this will change during the life of this Government. Perhaps, in response to campaigning by Plaid Cymru around HS2, £0.4 billion will come to Wales—much less than the £4 billion that we are owed—and half of that funding would enable us to move towards making this aspiration a reality. Lee Waters has just told us about £2 billion. Well, £4 billion is owed to us because of HS2. What are we receiving? One point four billion pounds. And as far as I can see, not a penny of that will come to west Wales.

I'm grateful to the organisers of this petition, and the 12,000 signatories, for keeping this matter on the public agenda, and I agree entirely that we need to unite our nation, from north to south, through our railways. We saw the slightest movement towards this with the publication—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Siân, will you take an intervention? Will you take an intervention?

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Yes.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for taking the intervention. So, I accept your point that we are underfunded and that we should be getting £4 billion if we had our proper share of rail investment. You said that, if we had that £4 billion, half of it should go towards opening these old railway lines. Then what about the project for a south Wales metro, a south-west Wales metro? How about the project to extend the south Wales metro up into other valleys? How about the project of the north-east Wales metro? On what basis are you saying we should be spending half of our rail investment on reopening old railway lines that carry relatively few passengers?

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

There has been a serious lack of investment in our railways for decades, in our public transport. In Wales there has been a lack of investment in our infrastructure for decades. Where is your ambition, Lee? Why don't we address some of that deficit now? Why don't we use the funding that is owed as a result of HS2? And why don't we fight for much more funding to spend on our infrastructure here in Wales?

As I said, we saw the slightest movement towards this aspiration expressed in the publication of a study that focused on Bangor to Afon Wen, which is that missing piece of railway that is needed to close the gap between the north Wales line and the Cambrian line in the north-west. As you know, the study was made possible by the co-operation agreement, and although we welcome this focus on that specific line, the study's criteria were very limited. The study looked at the benefits of deploying light rail and tram technology to restore the line that was closed in the 1960s.

The findings of the report are that using trams would limit the journey speeds. The study, therefore, recommends that further studies should be undertaken to see whether heavy rail would be a better option than light rail. I very much hope that we can have confirmation that such a study will be commissioned and that a very small proportion of that £0.4 billion can be used to that end. Trams are better suited to urban areas, but in a rural area, it may be—and I'm not saying that this is the solution—that heavy rail offers the greatest benefits.

I therefore look forward to the presentation by Transport for Wales at the cross-party group on north Wales at the end of the month, when there will be an opportunity to explore some of these issues, and perhaps there will be a glimmer of hope that we can at least keep the aspiration alive during this Senedd term.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, and thank you to the organisers of the petition for their work. Plaid Cymru has quite rightly highlighted in this Chamber, over the past few weeks and months, the injustice related to rail funding—a message, of course, that is uncomfortable for Labour to hear, particularly as they have been let down time and time again by their partners in London.

Now, if our rail system was based on population density and community need, then we would have already seen a connection in place between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen in south-west Wales, with all of the economic benefits that that would bring in terms of tourism, the cultural links, and access to public services too, and, of course, the benefits to the environment. But that is not the case. As each and every one of us knows in south-west Wales, if you want to travel by rail from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, you have to travel through England and through Shrewsbury.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

The paltry £0.4 billion for Welsh railways, announced by Rachel Reeves last week, spread across a period of 10 years, was another stain—repeated again by Heidi Alexander today—on the UK Government's record on this matter. It's a fraction, as we've known for a long time, of what we're owed, and a fraction of what English regions with smaller populations are receiving. And only today we heard that the total cost of HS2 is now about £100 billion, so the money owing to Wales is closer to between £5 billion and £6 billion.

Now, what didn't receive as much attention in the press last week was where exactly this investment would go. South-east Wales will receive five new stations near Cardiff and Newport, while north-east Wales will see improved links near Wrexham. West Wales, as we have heard already from Siân, gets nothing. Never mind a project as ambitious as linking north and south Wales, the spending review was another missed opportunity to back the proposals to build the west Wales parkway railway station near Felindre, north of Swansea, which would greatly have improved connectivity in the surrounding area. The project was estimated in 2019 to cost £20 million, a far cry from the bill for the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line. We haven't even been given the money for this, and the project continues to be stuck in the planning stage for its sixth year. So, it's the same old story: Wales gets little, west Wales gets less, and Labour are ignoring, letting down and holding back the people that I represent in south-west Wales in Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch, Llywydd. I won't be playing any of the regions of Wales off against each other, not today. I'm going to respond directly to the debate, and begin by thanking Carolyn Thomas for opening this important debate on a very interesting petition. I can assure Members that this Government is committed to improving transport links in all parts of Wales, and that's why I've prioritised high-quality multimodal transport links across the country, and I am proud of the progress that we have made on delivering these changes on rail. As Lee Waters identified, we've invested over £1 billion in the core Valleys lines, the heart, of course, of the south Wales metro, and I recently launched our plans and investment programme for network north Wales, which set out our ambition for improved connectivity across the north Wales region, and, of course, we're rolling out £800 million of new trains across the whole of Wales. That will deliver an 80 per cent increase in the number of trains being used across the Wales and borders network.

And this, of course, is intrinsically linked to the work that we're undertaking to improve bus services, which are vital to improving the connectivity of our communities. Our buses count for three quarters of all public transport journeys, and they are a vital lifeline for some of our most vulnerable and isolated people across Wales. The introduction of the bus Bill aims to deliver bus franchising precisely because it can help those who most need the bus network in both urban and rural communities.

Now, I do recognise both the opportunities and also the challenges presented by the proposal in the petition. While it's attractive to imagine being able to reopen a host of closed former lines in Wales, the resource required is enormous. Heavy rail solutions require significant—.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Will you take an intervention?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

First of all, you mentioned the north Wales metro, but there's nothing for Dwyfor Meirionnydd in the north Wales metro. That doesn't benefit the communities I represent. And you mentioned the new trains that are coming online, but you've cut trains on the Cambrian line, so there are no new trains for us there. But when you say it's an enormous resource and it will cost, last week, we heard Mark Drakeford, the finance Minister, say that the Government asked for money from the spending review and they got it. Why didn't you ask for money to build on the plans that have been put forward here, in order to develop the proposals for the Afonwen-Bangor and for the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen line?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll just provide a backdrop to the comprehensive spending review. That provides spending for a three-year period. A three-year period develops and delivers some infrastructure, but, if you're looking at long-term programmes, then it's delivery money that you need, which was provided in the comprehensive spending review. Plaid Cymru, I know, recently have called for no investment to be made in cross-border rail services. It appears that Plaid Cymru would like train services to stop at the border. We've heard again, today, that train services shouldn't have to pass into England in order to get to south Wales from north Wales. It's absolute nonsense.

And I firmly believe that it's important to correct Plaid Cymru on the misinformation that they continue to spread about HS2, the consequentials and the CSR. To date, HS2 would have delivered and should have delivered around £350 million in consequentials. By the end of this financial year, it should have delivered a consequential—a Barnett consequential—in the region of £430 million. The £4 billion that Plaid Cymru continue to reference is an estimate of the original Barnett consequential that would have been derived from the entire programme being delivered. We know that the entire programme has been cut short, and today's estimate of costs I think stands at around £57 billion. Now, we don't know what the final cost will be, but that's the whole point of Barnett consequentials, that you get the consequentials on the basis of what money has been spent. We are arguing for a dedicated Wales business unit that can draw down and secure an annual sum of money for maintenance and enhancements of the network. That will deliver the sort of game-changing rail infrastructure that Members on these benches wish to see.

Now, I think Lee Waters made the case brilliantly for common sense, and also provided a reality check on the cost and also the ability to deliver on all of the major infrastructure projects that Members across this Chamber have been calling for. So, while I support in principle the commissioning of feasibility studies on the options for reopening closed lines, they have to be based on a defined need, and so any feasibility work should take into account the latest rail developments, consider both heavy and light rail options, and also, vitally, they must complement our roll-out of bus franchising to provide an integrated transport system.

Now that doesn't mean we will not consider the ask. In north, south and west Wales, our priorities are based on increased use of the core network to key transport links via rail and, of course, to make better use of the bus network in between those links. We've secured and will continue to deliver improvements to those networks to drive an increase in patronage, and, through these changes, we are already delivering that increase in use, which, of course, in turn, is securing increased revenue.

Now, there are closed lines and closed stations right across Wales, with good people in all parts of Wales campaigning for them to be reopened. In my particular area, we have the Ruabon to Llangollen line, we have the Mold to Denbigh line, we've got the Mold to Padeswood line. We've got multiple stations that people wish to reopen. But rail Minister Peter Hendy made an insightful observation at the recent network north Wales summit. He identified why people hanker after rail services over bus services, and it's because rail services are seen as permanent; they are seen as more secure. Through the bus Bill and through heavy investment in the Traws Cymru service, we'll do, through bus services, what many people have only ever believed is possible with rail. We will make them permanent, safe, reliable and secure. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'd like to thank all the Members for their contributions today. So, Janet supported the line from Bangor to Caernarfon, thinking that would be a really good idea, and improving the A55. Peredur mentioned how the existing line crosses the border, but this would be for a wholly Welsh line, and he supported devolving our railways, along with funding.

Lee highlighted how we need to look at intermodal connective transport, not just rail, and the cost of this will be approximately £2 billion, and we need to balance cost and use along with projects in other areas as well. Siân mentioned that Transport for Wales has this as just an aspiration at the moment; she'd like to see a bit more positivity regarding it. She also talked about the HS2 funding that is owed, and this was also supported by Cefin Campbell.

But consequentials only arrive when money has been spent, as highlighted by the Cabinet Secretary. So, the Cabinet Secretary also identified investment in many multimodal projects across Wales, including the Welsh Government investment of £800 million in new carriages and trains, and many multimodal projects as well, including public bus transport. So, there are lots of great projects happening, and the aspiration of this as well is something that we could possibly keep on the table as well.

I'd like to thank Elfed ap Elwyn, and the other campaigners from Traws Link Cymru for their efforts here. Thank you so much. They're here today.

All of us here are aware that reconnecting and reopening a rail link between north and south would be an enormous undertaking. The feasibility report commissioned by the Welsh Government has made this clear, but it also points to a way that it might one day be possible. What we are learning through the various metro schemes across Wales is that rail projects take time and they need money, but they also need dreams and a vision to make them a reality—and persistence, I must say. I hope that today's debate has allowed us all to reflect on the practical barriers that there are to undoing Dr Beeching's cuts, but, more than that, to dream big dreams and share the dream of a Welsh west coast railway. Diolch yn fawr to everybody. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Motion to suspend Standing Orders

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 this afternoon is a motion to suspend Standing Order 13.6 to allow multiple contributions from individual Members during item 7. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Open Debate: Arts and Culture—Nice to have or integral to the future of Wales?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We move, therefore, to item 7, the open debate: arts and culture—nice to have or integral to the future of Wales? I call on Heledd Fychan to open the debate.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The topic before us today is arts and culture, and the big question is: are they nice to have or are they integral to the future of Wales? I will be making the case that they are absolutely integral, that they are central, not only to our identity as a nation but to solving some of the greatest challenges that we face, from health to tackling poverty, from education to our economy. Slashing funding rather than investing in these sectors, never mind showing any sense of ambition for them, has been a misstep by the Welsh Government over the last few years, leaving Welsh culture in a situation of crisis.

Today, I look forward to hearing other contributions to this debate, and I very much hope that this will culminate in an acknowledgement by all parties represented here of the importance of investing in these sectors and the need to do more not only to safeguard them, but to support the wider contribution that they make. Every piece of research in this area has confirmed the positive impact of culture, which is why I cannot fathom why the Welsh Government has so utterly lost its way in respect of these areas. Because the arts do not exist in a silo, they are an integral part of so many different policy areas, making a genuine difference in terms of an individual's ability to contribute to society. It also makes economic sense, with various studies showing that, for every £1 spent in these sectors, £4, at least, is generated for the economy. Indeed, in 2023-24, the turnover of the arts and culture industry in Wales was £1.64 billion, and this is despite the underinvestment and lack of support from the Government. We can do so much more.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

A recent press release from the Government included a quote from our First Minister claiming that the Government truly values the importance of arts and culture. The quote also mentioned—and this is a direct quote—

'a massive 8.5% increase in day to day funding, reflecting the special place the arts hold in the hearts of people across Wales'.

The same quote also stated that £8 million-worth of capital funding will be

'transformational for arts organisations in enabling them to continue to entertain people across Wales'.

So, everything’s great, right? Nothing to see here. I’d like to take a minute or two to outline why there are so many flaws in just this one press release. Firstly, there is no mention of the importance of arts and culture to Government, nor its impact across portfolios. Yes, the arts do entertain people across Wales, but they do so much more than that. Secondly, of course this year’s increase is welcome, and the capital funding is much needed, but it is a drop in the ocean of what’s needed across the portfolio when you consider that Amgueddfa Cymru alone has circa £100 million-worth of capital maintenance programme backlog across all national museum sites. Also, it doesn’t even bring budgets back to what was being spent on arts and culture at the beginning of this Senedd term, nor reflect how much these sectors were decimated in the 2024-25 budgets, leading to hundreds of job cuts. In fact, the massive uplift equates to a real-terms increase of about 1 per cent between 2023-24 and 2025-26, with revenue funding for all relevant bodies, including Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales, remaining at 2023-24 cash levels. This is a real-terms cut of around 2 per cent since 2023-24, and a 17 per cent decline over the last decade. At the same time, over the past decade, as culture is not a statutory service, local authority funding for culture and related services has fallen by 40 per cent. So, the Government can spin all it likes, but the facts speak for themselves, with Wales ranking second from bottom in Europe for per-person spending on cultural services, and third from bottom for sport.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

So, why does this matter? Well, participation in culture, the arts and sports are not nice-to-haves, but essential to who we are and to the very fabric of our communities. They are how we tell our stories, how we express our values, how we express ourselves and how we connect with each other. They are everything that make life worth living, and yet, increasingly, they have come to be regarded as luxuries that can no longer be afforded by those who hold the purse strings.

How did we get to the point of thinking it was acceptable to ask people in a public consultation if they wanted a music service or a museum, or did they want their bins emptied; if people wanted a library or for their elderly relatives to receive care? Or, as we heard during a debate last year, having a previous culture Minister who was happier making the case for cutting funding to the arts so that more could be invested in our NHS, rather than advocating about the power of the arts when it comes to health, and how arts programmes and social prescribing can actually save the NHS money, as demonstrated by some truly brilliant arts and health programmes across Wales. Investing in one should not mean not investing in the other. They are interconnected and all are essential. And by embedding those connections, the money available to spend can be spent more effectively and impactfully.

Personally, I subscribe to the Raymond Williams school of thought that culture is ordinary, not something elitist or exclusionary. In fact, the right to culture, to access, create, participate in and enjoy culture, is a human right—something that has got lost somewhere along the way. And given the deep divisions we are now seeing in society, perhaps we should take a moment to consider whether cuts to culture and the arts may be a contributing factor. After all, culture is essential in fostering social cohesion, which, in turn, fosters diversity and equity while reducing inequalities. As UNESCO states,

'This is why guaranteeing the right to culture is an ethical, social, and economic imperative.'

Adam Johannes, a well-known activist and campaigner on a number of issues, including the arts, recently reminded me in a Facebook post of a campaign that we were both involved in a few years ago, campaigning against the cuts to culture in Cardiff, and specifically the words of local playwright Greg Cullen at the time, in which he reminded Cardiff councillors of how public subsidy of the arts in post-war Britain was a vital part of the vision behind the welfare state.

This was driven by the UK Government’s first ever Minister for the Arts, Jennie Lee, with her groundbreaking White Paper, published 60 years ago to this year, insisting that the arts should be central to everyday life and publicly supported for the benefit of all. She also played a leading role in affirming the view that the arts should be publicly supported because they are a public good, and understood the role of the arts in tackling inequality.

Her White Paper committed the Government to make progress on four objectives. Firstly, financial help for artists, particularly in the early years before they become established; secondly, a great increase in local and regional activity while maintaining the development of national institutions; thirdly, that the Government appreciate the need to sustain and strengthen all that is best in the arts, and that the best must be made more widely available; and fourthly, that there is need for more systematic planning and a better co-ordination of resources. Sixty years on, all four objectives remain as relevant today as they were then, and they are far more ambitious than what’s outlined in the Welsh Government’s recently published 'Priorities for Culture'.

Because what we’ve seen here in Wales is a Labour Government who seem happy to oversee a decline in the number of pupils taking drama and music at school, and the arts becoming as they were in the past—only truly accessible to the few, rather than all of us. Content to oversee libraries, museums and even concert halls lying empty or permanently closing; that we have no official national theatre in the English language; that our internationally acclaimed national opera company faces an uncertain future; or that the only junior conservatoire in Wales is no more. Should we not be up in arms about all of this?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I’m angry, I'm saddened, and I'm fed up of hearing so many politicians trying to justify the cuts or trying to pretend that the cuts aren't as bad as the statistics show. Enough is enough. Today, we must recognise the gravity of the situation, and the fact that culture is in crisis. If we want Wales to prosper, and if we want the best for the people of Wales, then we must rethink the position of culture and the arts within the Government, and also how we fund them. I look forward very much to hearing the remaining contributions, and I thank you all in advance for taking part in this debate.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's a pleasure to speak today in this debate on whether arts and culture are luxuries or a necessity. And this shouldn't even be a question we have to pose, and I'll say it plainly: culture isn't a luxury. It is not an extra to be indulged in in times of prosperity; it is fundamental to who we are. It is how we tell our story, cultivate our humanity and shape our future.

Yet for too long that story has been distorted, not only through a funding regime that treats the arts and culture sector as dispensable, but through a political culture that claims ownership of Welsh culture and sets out a remit to the sector that encourages the frivolous waste of taxpayers' money. Meanwhile, the core pillars of our arts and culture sectors, such as our national theatres, museums and opera, are hollowed out and crumbling.

We also have an arts and culture sector entirely reliant on public money, with no attempts by the Welsh Government to cultivate a culture of philanthropy. As a Conservative and a proud Welshman and Briton, defending our shared cultural inheritance and ensuring it passes on to the next generation is paramount. The Minister for culture may continue to deny there is a funding crisis, but this denial doesn't bring solutions to the Welsh National Opera, who are struggling to pay the bills. It doesn't preserve the collections in our museums. The Arts Council of Wales have made it clear that this situation is critical, and the culture committee's report, ‘A decade of cuts’, tells the story in brutal terms. Spending on culture in Wales per head is one of the lowest in Europe, where they invest in the sector not for prestige, but because they understand that culture builds confidence, identity and long-term prosperity.

The national museum in Cardiff needs more than £25 million for essential repairs, yet they only received a small uplift for emergency repairs as a sticking-plaster solution, which Amgueddfa Cymru describe themselves as not going far enough. I dread to think what state our museums will be in in another decade without a dramatic increase in funding.

Although the allocation for culture spending has increased, the increase is small and has been wiped out by the national insurance rise from the UK Labour Government. And yet, even with limited funds, the money allocated is often misdirected. The Welsh Government's remit letter, the formal document sent to arm's-length bodies like the arts council and Amgueddfa Cymru, instructs them to waste money on frivolous ideological schemes rather than investing in pillars of our culture. That remit should be a framework for delivering excellence and giving the sector the freedom to ensure creative expression. Instead, it has become a wish list—[Interruption.] I’ll just finish my sentence. A wish list of ideological jargon, instructing cultural bodies to meet vague social and environmental targets, rather than supporting their core purpose and nurturing the preservation of Welsh culture. Lee.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. I'm interested in the examples you have of what you think is frivolous. You've just given us one there of environmental objectives as being frivolous. Given that we have multiple challenges as a community, including the environment, why can we only tackle one problem with one intervention? Why can't we tackle multiple problems?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Fortunately, it's something I've raised before, and the fact that given the problems that the culture sector faces, why are we injecting frivolous money to be spent on those projects when we have a culture crisis? Bodies like Amgueddfa Cymru don't have the money to do repairs to their buildings, so how could they tackle environmental problems? I'm using that as one example, where they can't get the infrastructure right. Myself and Darren Millar visited Llandygai recently, where we went to the National Slate Museum. So, there are good things going on. There was investment in those buildings, but a lot of the buildings have old infrastructure, and if they're there to fulfil environmental targets, as instructed by the Welsh Government, then that's going to be a tall order, and comes at a lot more money than what's being injected by the Welsh Government, who are making those demands on those services.

But, continuing, I'd say the result is money is siphoned away from the cornerstones of our cultural life, our museums, our heritage sites, our orchestras, our language, and redirected towards radical initiatives that score political points but do little to enrich the nation. Welsh National Opera, once the pride of our creative exports, now faces existential threats. Our museums are quite literally falling apart, whilst they also plough money into decolonisation. We should remember too that Britain has an unmatched contribution to cultural preservation through our museums, which stood as guardians of the world's treasures, resurrecting narratives forgotten by time, and reflecting Britain's unique sense of responsibility to chronicle not just its own story, but the tapestry of human civilisation itself. That sense of responsibility and intellectual curiosity on which we led the way is dying here in Wales, due to a Government that prioritised dissertations on Welsh cakes, rather than preserving our heritage for the benefit of the next generation.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Would you take an intervention?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Sure, yes.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Do you agree with and support the principle of arm's length, which organisations such as the national museum are governed by, and also appreciate that they are governed by a code of ethics, so that they are bound by this code of ethics in order to achieve accreditation? Surely, you're not suggesting that we should have a say in how these cultural organisations fulfil their remit, which is in the remit letter—those are guidance only. Surely, we should support that arm's-length principle, and that they abide by a code of ethics, because what you're suggesting is that they would break that code of ethics completely and lose accreditation. That's the actual logical conclusion of your argument.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

No, I think it's quite the opposite, actually. I think you've interpreted it the wrong way.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I was chair of the ethics committee for the UK.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I say that creation and having the freedom to do those things actually breeds creativity, if you're given that autonomy to do so. They're creative people in creative industries and if they're being governed to the point of—. You know, saying 'arm's-length bodies', but that only goes so far as arm's-length bodies. The funding comes but it comes with caveats as well, which are also things like the accreditation, which you're saying. We're saying: give them the funding, but then also the freedom and the autonomy to do those things.

The arm's-length bodies in the arts and culture sector must be refocused, with many of them straying far from their original mission. I've been vocal in criticising the approach of these bodies, especially their disregard for classical music and the opera sector, areas in which Wales has traditionally excelled.

We must also cultivate a culture of philanthropy here at home. That doesn't mean American-style commercialisation; it means encouraging private individuals and businesses to see Welsh arts as a cause worth investing in, and we should be looking for that investment. They have deeper pockets in London, but with large amounts of private donations given to arts and cultural institutions. Here, they are almost entirely reliant on public money, and that just isn't sustainable. I'd be keen to hear from the Minister what he is doing to cultivate a culture of philanthropy.

We must also open our doors to international collaborations for the arts, to embrace platforms like Netflix and Amazon, who are hungry for authentic stories. Wales has those stories in abundance. What we lack is the infrastructure to deliver them consistently on the world stage.

Culture is not something we consume; it's something we live. Our arts and culture sector must be accessible to all, and that's reflected in the Arts Council of Wales strategy 2024-34. Welsh culture must not be politicised and our cultural institutions regarded as elite or out of step with the younger generation. They have to be given the funding and freedom to evolve to ensure their survival.

The Welsh National Opera are doing fantastic work to ensure their productions appeal and reflect to younger people, but as I've stated already, they are having to make vast cuts due to their lack of funding. The closure of National Theatre Wales was also a huge blow, but Michael Sheen's plans for a new theatre of Wales, a bold, people-powered idea that speaks in the language of community, is exciting, and it's the kind of ambition we should celebrate across all parties and something for the Welsh Government to build on.

What I'd like to see the Welsh Government build on is a properly funded arts and culture sector where spending is in line with European nations, following the recommendations of the Senedd's culture committee; a future where our museums don't apologise for our past but interpret it with pride, context and complexity; a culture sector that unites not divides; a remit set for the sector by the Welsh Government that ensures spending on the cornerstones of cultural life and not silly side missions that cause money to be wasted on the bizarre ideological interests of the modern left; a culture and arts sector that is accessible to everyone in Wales, particularly the young, to actively participate in; and a culture of philanthropy to attract private donations so we can rival the money available to the sector in England—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Gareth, I've given you the additional time for interventions.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm concluding now, Deputy Llywydd. That is what the Welsh Conservatives will offer: arts and culture no longer an afterthought, no longer treated as a luxury, but treated as the foundation to the future of Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I'm very pleased to say that, in Newport, our arts and cultural sector is very much seen, and is, integral to the future of the city. It's a big part of what makes the city vibrant and special. And this is reflected in Newport City Council's recent cultural strategy, which sets out the way forward for that sector in Newport. It's estimated that some 5,500 jobs and £330 million of gross value added is brought to Newport by the cultural sector and creative industries, which I'm pleased to say are thriving.

We have over 40 cultural venues, and footfall in the city centre is greatly aided by a series of events throughout the year, such as the Newport Music Trail, the food festival and the soon-to-happen Big Splash. And, of course, that cultural activity and sector in Newport is absolutely crucial to the identity of the city. We are multicultural, and that variety and richness is reflected in our arts and cultural scene. We do take pride in that diversity. We have a shared feeling of connection and pride around that richness and that multicultural scene.

Newport Cultural Hub is a collaborative space for 21 minority ethnic communities, promoting cultural exchange and inclusivity. We have the Riverfront theatre and arts centre, which is a centrepiece of activity and local pride. There are many performances there by Ballet Cymru, which again is an absolute exemplar when it comes to local activity in Newport, and they also have their own purpose-built base, which has allowed them to flourish and develop.

In terms of education and skills, cultural initiatives and projects provide vital learning opportunities for our young people, especially in underserved areas. Organisations like Urban Circle have been very impressive in providing those opportunities in the more deprived areas of Newport, and opening up new pathways to employment as well as providing confidence and communication and team-working skills.

Newport City Council's cultural strategy emphasises the importance of developing a career pipeline for young people, providing training and career opportunities in the creative sector. This, alongside networking events and start-up support offered by the Newport Creative Industries Cluster Hub, will help cultivate the next generation of creative professionals and emerging talent.

And, of course, the arts are also important for health and well-being benefits, including mental health; so there are accessible cultural programmes in Newport that have helped reduce isolation and improve quality of life—as seen, for example, by local groups such as Age Alive.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Newport's creative scene amplifies Welsh stories, history and language in innovative ways, drawing on the diversity and vibrancy of our communities. Our cultural scene is so highly regarded that the city has been chosen to host Eisteddfod yr Urdd 2027, and also to host UK Pride in September 2026. I do believe that these huge events choosing Newport as their home for those years signifies a profound recognition of the city's cultural vitality and its commitment to inclusivity and heritage. And both of those events will be vital for contributing to the national cultural narrative and 'Cymraeg 2050' goals.

I'm very proud to just give an outline of what's happening and is set to happen in Newport as part of this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd. I do think it shows the city in a very positive light indeed.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

It's a well-established truth that, for a minority people, without the anchorage of a nation state, culture becomes the vessel through which identity, dignity and memory are sustained. As the Welsh writer and critic Raymond Williams reminded us, 'culture is ordinary.' But, as he also noted, in Wales, that ordinary is also extraordinary, a quiet act of defiance against the tides of political marginalisation and linguistic erasure.

Official histories are, as has been widely observed, written by the victors. The lived experiences of minority nations like Wales, on the other hand, can lie unrecorded. Outside the archive, as Derrida puts it. Beyond the empirical gaze of the historian, a dying culture leaves no archive.

Processes such as linguistic loss or secularisation are rarely recorded. It is to the cultural record that we must turn to measure their effects. In this context, culture is not decoration, it is survival. It is, as the late African writer Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o argued, not just a matter of heritage, but of how a people perceive themselves and their place in the universe.

Writing about the colonial repression of African languages, Ngũgĩ argued that language and culture are not peripheral to national life, they are its core. How people perceive themselves affects how they look at their culture, at their politics and at the social production of wealth. At their entire relationship to nature and to other beings.

The same holds true in Wales. Without the flourishing of cultural activity—primarily in Welsh, but increasingly from the late nineteenth century onward in English too—there might not be a Senedd. No Welsh Parliament today.

Professor Jane Aaron has charted how Welsh women writers, long before devolution, used fiction and poetry to write Wales into being. Creating cultural spaces that prefigured political ones. We must recognise, then, that culture is not an optional extra for a small post-colonial nation, it is the foundation upon which everything else is built. This is why now, more than ever, we in Wales must foster the arts. Not as a luxury, but as an essential act of nation building; of preserving dignity, of claiming our rightful voice in the world.

Culture is also the crucible that allows others to join us, bringing, when not vilified or marginalised, their own national, ethnic, immigrant and refugee voices into that hybrid Cymreictod, which it is our political duty to foster. One powerful example of this ongoing cultural nation building can be seen in the work of Pontardawe Arts Centre, which stands as a living embodiment of the principles I've outlined. Far from being a peripheral amenity, it is the beating heart of the town and surrounding area, sustained not only by institutional support but by the committed energy of the local community.

The Friends of Pontardawe Arts Centre, founded in 2017 in response to a threat to the centre's future due to local authority spending cuts, has since become a vital force for advocacy and partnership. Their efforts led to the creation of a new community cinema and a sustained programme of cultural investment. And I must declare an interest, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I'm a member of the Friends of Pontardawe Arts Centre.

But the centre's significance is more than infrastructural, it's transformational. CATS, the Class Act Theatre School, runs every Saturday for over 150 students aged six to 19. Its alumni now perform at the national theatre, the Globe and the west end, and some, like Fran Goodridge and Sioned and Sara Dafydd, have gone on to shape Welsh culture at the highest levels, from the national theatre to the Sherman Theatre, to BBC Wales and S4C.

And yet the real value, as one trustee puts it, lies in the transferable skills—confidence, communication, aspiration—that drama and the skills it fosters offer. Former students have gone on to careers in law, education, and journalism. So, culture here is not a pastime, it's a passport to wider opportunity.

The impact also takes visual form. A recent mural project in the underpass between Pontardawe and the supermarket, entitled 'Pontardawe: Past, Present and Future', engaged local schools and community groups in a vibrant act of collective storytelling. With modest grants, the mural transformed a dark space into a celebration of local identity. It's precisely this kind of grass-roots artistic intervention—small in budget, but enormous in meaning—that reminds us culture is not abstract, it is lived, seen, and shared.

The statistics speak for themselves: over 14,000 people attended 500 user group sessions last year alone in Pontardawe Arts Centre; 92 performances drew in more than 18,000 audience members. From hip-hop dance to ballet, from Welsh language theatre to community health classes, Pontardawe Arts Centre transcends demographic and geographic boundaries. It is where culture meets well-being, education and community resilience.

And yet the threats remain. Across administrations, budget strategies often reduce the arts to a cost centre, a candidate for cuts, not investment. But this mindset ignores the wider value to both society and our very nationhood. The arts are not a drain, they're a driver.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Should arts provision be placed on a statutory footing? I think we need a discussion on that very question, and it would be good to hear other people's views on this matter this afternoon. I would say, at the very least, that we must recognise that our arts centres, like that in Pontardawe, do that crucial, unheralded work that sustains our communities, that raises aspirations, and that fosters a nation's confidence.

In Pontardawe, we have seen how the arts and culture are a transformative force. They're a tool to empower, to open doors to dignity and participation in a national story. In many of our most deprived communities, the barriers to access culture and the arts are real: ticket costs, transport costs, a lack of confidence. But local arts centres like Pontardawe, and others, of course, across Wales, demolish those barriers. They bring bilingual culture to the doorstep, literally.

We know that coming into contact with the arts early on changes lives. It boosts confidence, improves literacy and raises aspirations, particularly for children who do not, perhaps, see themselves being reflected in mainstream educational or employment narratives. In communities facing poverty, hardship and social pressures and tensions, participation in the arts can reduce isolation, contribute to physical and mental well-being, and nurture a sense of belonging. Cultural activity also regenerates communities economically, supports small businesses and creates employment and prosperity.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

So, perhaps most powerfully of all, the arts gives our nation and our people a voice. In a nation where levels of poverty and lack of political power too often means silence, where decisions are made about us, not by us, the arts offer a platform for self-expression, self-representation and truth telling. So, we must stop treating the arts and culture as the icing on the cake. They are in fact the yeast.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

The yeast in the flour.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Sioned, you must finish now.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I am finishing. They raise communities, they nourish confidence, they create nationhood. We should never forget that, and our policies should reflect that. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank the Members who have contributed to this debate and the Members who will follow.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Llywydd, arts and culture are an integral part of our society and of our nation's well-being and its future. A month ago I published the 'Priorities for Culture', and they have been backed by a significant funding package of £15 million that have been welcomed by the sector. Since I was appointed Minister, I have stressed that every person in Wales should have the right to access, to create, to participate in, and to see themselves reflected in the cultural and sporting activity of our nation. And as many of you will know, I'm particularly interested in supporting access to culture for the underprivileged and for the working class. I have consistently sought to highlight examples of where the sector and our additional funding have made a difference, rising above sneers that question if a former apprentice from Connah’s Quay is even cultured enough to understand. And Llywydd, I know that people who share these views forfeit the right to talk about taking culture to every part of Wales.

As I have said before, I believe we need to provide cultural experiences for all children and young people, and break down barriers to access. And a conversation that has always stuck with me is the one that I had with a headteacher of a high school in a working-class community. He told me how many of the children had not visited a local museum that was just only a matter of miles from the school. And we haven't yet, in this open debate, Llywydd, heard from an opposition Member the mention of the additional funding designed to take these very children to the history on their doorstep, funding to support school travel to local museums, and funding to establish a programme of activity in libraries, creating opportunities for children to engage with authors and engage with story-tellers.

Presiding Officer, our budget this year includes an additional £9.6 million revenue and an additional £18.4 million capital funding for arts, culture, creative industries, heritage and sport. And this builds on significant additional funding we provided last year, which included an additional £5 million revenue to our national cultural bodies and Cadw, to support jobs and organisational resilience, and £3.2 million additional capital funding for repairs to the National Museum Cardiff and the National Library of Wales.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Will you take an intervention?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I've a lot to go through, by the way.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much. I do welcome the change of tone since you've been Minister and your clarity in terms of the importance of the arts and access to everyone. Just on that £5 million, though, you must admit that last year was a really, really challenging year for these cultural organisations, and that much of that £5 million went towards supporting voluntary redundancies so that savings could be made year on year. There were hundreds of job cuts in the cultural sector in that financial year, enabled by that £5 million.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, what I was very keen to see, Presiding Officer, since I came into this post, was investment in the sector, and it was good to get that £5 million over the line and out back into the sector. Since 2022, Presiding Officer, we've awarded more than £5 million to make collections and spaces more accessible to everyone, and to support grass-roots cultural participation, because I take the view that, by doing this, we open up not just spaces and exhibits, but the conversation about our nation's culture to everyone. And while some seem to dictate who is qualified to understand and join in this conversation, I am clear that everyone is.

Llywydd, we have continued to invest in local museum, library and archive services through our transformation capital grant, supporting the modernisation of local services. During the last four years, we have invested nearly £7 million into these local projects.

The development of Celf, the dispersed national contemporary art gallery for Wales, has been a key priority within our programme for government, receiving nearly £7.5 million of investment during this Senedd term. It's a powerful example of this Government's commitment to ensuring access for all and to distributing investment across Cymru. Llywydd, I've already unashamedly set out my stall when it comes to ensuring that museums across Wales are able to host our most significant cultural heritage. And when I told my colleague Carolyn Thomas that I shared her ambition to see the Caergwrle bowl back in north-east Wales, I was speaking about more than just a significant artefact. Communities in Caergwrle and in Wrexham are proud communities, and local schoolchildren should be able to understand and see their history.

Presiding Officer, our capital investment in the sector is now three times higher than it was 10 years ago. We are delivering on high-profile commitments, such as the extensive refurbishment of Theatr Clwyd and the development of a football museum for Wales in Wrexham. And John Griffiths highlighted in his contribution the investment and how the investment is shedding a positive light on the city of Newport.

So, Presiding Officer, in the open debate, I do hope, for the remainder of the open debate—an important debate, and I welcome this debate—that it isn't like logging on to our social media accounts, where we're stuck in an echo chamber where opposition Members only pick out the negatives, Presiding Officer, the negatives that they seek out, ignoring the words of the sector, who have welcomed additional funding, grasping onto the same lines that they would have written even before the funding that they voted against was awarded. So, if they're not prepared to celebrate what the sector has said, and I do hope they take the opportunity to do so, then I will, because our support is making a real difference, not only for large-scale projects, but at the grass-roots level too.

So, let me share, Presiding Officer, with you—

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Can I just make a quick intervention, please, Minister? Why do you think, then, in his latest report, that the future generations commissioner has said that culture is in crisis in Wales?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

So, as I said, Presiding Officer, it doesn't seem, does it, that the opposition Members want to celebrate what the sector is saying, and the sector—[Interruption.] Let me say what the sector has said. [Interruption.] Let me say what the sector has said: an independent local museum, when they received a recent funding award letter, said, and I quote, 'What has happened in the last 30 minutes here? I opened the e-mail, started crying, texted our chair, who screamed down the phone, and went off to tell the other trustees. This helps us so, so, so much, and we are ridiculously grateful.' So, Llywydd, let's also take the opportunity to highlight some local examples that I even hope opposition Members do take the opportunity to welcome today.

The future of the historic Blackwood Miners' Institute is now looking brighter, thanks to further funding. The building is a phenomenal example of working-class history, and should be celebrated. It was built by subscriptions of miners, built to host culture, and will continue to do so because of our funding. And as I mentioned earlier, Presiding Officer, Theatr Clwyd, a cultural institution in north Wales, but not one mentioned yet today by opposition Members, and both shadow spokespeople have visited the institution recently. Generations, Presiding Officer, of children and adults had their first experiences of theatre here, including a young Jack Sargeant. And our £23.5 million capital investment will mean that this will continue for generations to come. And another example of our significant financial support for culture is the Caerphilly castle development: £8.2 million for phase 1 investment, which is due to complete this July. Also, at Caernarfon castle, there's a major £5 million-worth of investment. So, investment is happening in the sector and should be welcomed.

But this Government, Presiding Officer, has demonstrated its commitment and support for culture, defined in the broadest sense, across a range of policy areas, and it's right that we do that. It's important to remember that as well as funding from my portfolio, there is other investment in culture across the Welsh Government, in areas such as education, sport and energy. For example, there's £1.5 million to support Amgueddfa Cymru's transition to sustainable energy through the Welsh Government's energy service this year. We also support the showcasing and celebration of Welsh culture through Creative Wales—over £14 million this financial year—and Event Wales—over £5 million. We also invest in programmes such as the national music service and creative learning, and of course, Llywydd, the funding that is specifically allocated to support and promote the Welsh language.

Presiding Officer, we are building a recovery after the years of austerity. We are focused on the future and our fundamental principle is that delivering growth must be inclusive, ensuring that everyone can benefit from the power of culture. And for me, Presiding Officer, culture, as I think William Hazlitt once said,

'gives...liberal views; it accustoms the mind to take an interest in things foreign to itself; to love virtue for its own sake...and to fix our thoughts on the remote and permanent, instead of narrow and fleeting objects.'

I look forward to the remainder of the debate and hearing Members celebrate Welsh culture. Diolch.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

The title of the debate is 'Arts and Culture—nice to have or integral to the future of Wales?', and I think the fact that we're asking that question says a lot about the situation we're in. I don't think that that's a question that we would see the Irish asking, I don't think that that's a question that we would see the Scottish asking, or any other country in the world. And I'll come on to some of the stuff that the Minister has said, but I would say, just in response to some of his comments, the future generations commissioner, who Sioned Williams referred to, is independent of Welsh Government and he has said that the culture sector is in crisis.

Now, I know that the Government will want to go out and bat for the sector, and I have every faith, actually, that the Minister wants to see the culture sector thrive, but I also think it's okay sometimes to say that things aren't quite where we want them to be. We know that the funding isn't there. We hear that time and time again from different cultural organisations. And yes, of course they are going to welcome funding that's coming from Government, because the reality is that that funding does save them, but they are still on the breadline as things currently are. It's still a struggle for a lot of those cultural institutions, and what I would have liked to have heard from the Minister is just a bit of an acknowledgement there that things might not be where we want them to be right now, but we will strive to make sure that culture is an integral part of the Government's agenda, going forward. I didn't quite get that from the Minister, at least from my perspective.

In reference to something that Gareth Davies said around culture, for me, culture is inherently political. When you look at south Wales, for example, the south Wales Valleys and the miners' strike, that is culturally integral to those communities. And I think to even try to pretend that it isn't does the culture of those communities a disservice. Culture is inherently political, we should never forget that. The struggles of miners in particular have shaped those communities. They have shaped, for sure, the community I grew up in and my principles as a politician in this place. So, I think to try to deny that culture is inherently political does it a disservice— [Interruption.] I will give way.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Luke. I don't deny that fact, and when I visited the museum in Cardiff recently, I enjoyed the exhibition on the miners' strike, which was the showcase. I think it's finished now, but what I enjoyed was that it gave the history of south Wales, but they also noted that the Point of Ayr colliery in north Wales, just outside my constituency, was the only colliery in the whole of Wales that voted against strike action at that time. So, I was actually happy that that was noted during that, and I actually gave credit to the museum for highlighting that, because they are different communities and those in north Wales are different.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Will you take—?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's an intervention.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

An intervention on an intervention.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Oh, sorry.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

[Inaudible.]—intervene on an intervention. The Member needs to intervene during the speech.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

But, of course, I will give way to Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Luke. Thank you. I would charge that you're fundamentally misunderstanding what culture is, because you were making the charge in your contribution about ideological projects, but you've just demonstrated yourself that that exhibition in Amgueddfa Cymru reflected the whole experience of the miners' strike.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I highlighted a positive—highlighted a positive.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

So, you've really undermined your own argument there, haven't you?