Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 6 May 2025

459 contributions from 37 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda today will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ62641

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. Economic mission: priorities for a stronger economy' sets out four national priority areas. These include a just transition and green prosperity; a platform for young people, fair work, skills and success; stronger partnerships for stronger regions and the everyday economy; and investing for growth.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

First Minister, infrastructure development is crucial to supporting the economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire and, as you’re aware, there is a long-standing issue regarding the road network in lower town Fishguard. The current road system means that pedestrians have to use the same bridge as vehicles of all sizes, and there are regular reports of severe congestion because some heavy goods vehicles are ignoring the restrictions that are currently in place. None of this is helpful to the local community or, indeed, to the local economy, and because this is above party politics, I and Ben Lake, the MP for Ceredigion Preseli, have worked with the town council, and wrote a joint letter to you and the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, in March, asking for intervention after years of this problem affecting the area. We haven’t had a response to that letter as of yet, despite it being chased by my office, and so perhaps you could tell us now whether you and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary would be willing to visit the site for yourselves, and meet with me, Ben Lake and the town council so that we can resolve this matter once and for all.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. You’re quite right—road infrastructure is really important, particularly in Pembrokeshire, and I was very privileged on Friday to be able to officially open the A40 Llanddewi Velfrey to Redstone Cross road. And I’m very relieved, I must say, because I take that road every single week, and it’s taken four years, and there are none of those bollards in sight anymore, which is a great relief to me and to anybody else using that road. That will help tourism and it will help the economy. But you’re quite right—there are other roads that we need to look at and concentrate on. The set-out in lower Fishguard is difficult, as you know. It’s very, very difficult, and you’re quite right that we need to stop the heavy goods vehicles from using that particular pathway, but there are lots of different calls in relation to the road network. You’ll also be aware that Newgale is effectively under threat from climate change, and we’re going to have to make some difficult decisions on that.

So, we do need to have a look at what the priorities are. Thankfully, the A40 was helped by £40 million of European investment. Well, thanks to people who voted for Brexit, access to that kind of financial cash is not available to us anymore, which means that, where we might have had money for infrastructure before, we won’t have now. But I will chase with the transport Secretary why you haven’t had an answer to the particular letter you sent in relation to Fishguard.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. What is the Welsh Government’s response to recent reports of the dilapidated estate at the University Hospital of Wales? OQ62647

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cardiff and Vale University Health Board is responsible for the condition of its own estate. The health board can submit business cases to the Welsh Government for capital funding for its assessed priorities. These will then be considered against other schemes across NHS Wales.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, First Minister. I’m sure that you have read the recent report about the condition of Heath hospital. I remember walking along the corridors with my pregnant wife two years ago, trying to encourage our daughter to be born in the early hours of the morning, and I was shocked at how poor the condition of the corridors were and the state of the hospital as a whole. Now, back in July of 2021, the health board wrote a report that raised a number of problems at the hospital, and recommended at that time that a new hospital was needed. It was estimated that a new hospital would cost £107 million at that time, and it was proposed that the work could start in 2025 and be completed by 2028. Clearly, that hasn't happened. First Minister, I heard what you said earlier about it being the health board's responsibility, but what are the Welsh Government's plans? What guidance is the Welsh Government providing to the health board about the Heath hospital? Thank you very much.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. We're very aware that around 61 per cent of the health estate in Wales was built before 1995. I know that the Heath hospital is over 50 years old. Of course, they've made a number of changes already, including changes to electrical infrastructure, mortuary refurbishment. But there are other things that we as a Government will have to consider—the fact that we are investing, for example, through the mutual investment model programme, £350 million is being invested in a new cancer centre in Velindre. There's a great deal of funding being provided there. Clearly, the pot is limited, but what is positive is that we have seen far more capital funding having been provided as a result of the fact that we now have a Government in Westminster that wants to invest in public services. That wasn't the case for many years.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

First Minister, you can have the best buildings in the world—and we understand, obviously, that the UHW fabric is looking tired given its 50-year-old status, but those buildings can be replaced—but what needs to be within those buildings is good governance and confidence that, when people go into hospital, they will get the treatment and the respect they deserve. The health board have just undertaken a report into improper persons being in the operating theatres. That report was delivered to the health board at the end of April. Will you commit to using the Welsh Government's influence to make the findings of that report available as quickly as possible and, above all, to act on any of the recommendations, because there can be no more vulnerable setting than a patient on an operating theatre and then being looked at and examined, and people in that space that shouldn't be in that space?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. You're quite right—buildings over 50 years old are tired, and so are politicians over 50 years old. I think it's really important—[Interruption.] I think it's really important that we take these issues seriously. If there are improper people in our operating theatres, then of course we have to take that seriously. That report will be looked at, it will be taken seriously. I'm very pleased to see the incredible work that is being done by our medics, and that's to be seen on the programme Saving Lives in Cardiff. I think that's been a wonderful programme, highlighting the very best of our medical professionals.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

May I thank Rhys ab Owen for raising this exceptionally important issue? I want confirmation that you have seen the most recent reports, particularly what was written by Will Hayward. If I may quote, he said,

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

'From mid-March till April 7th, University Hospital Wales introduced a new visitors policy because of a norovirus outbreak. There have been several other outbreaks as well. These are killing people, and staff at the hospital have told me that it is inevitable that the physical environment within University Hospital Wales is a contributing factor.'

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

May I ask what your response is to that, because the response to Rhys ab Owen didn't give us the assurance, I don't think, that we would wish to see from this Government as to the seriousness of the situation? Also, this isn't the only issue that has been given attention in the press. We heard last week about two cases where two people almost received surgery without the correct consent forms being in place. So, what's happening at Wales's largest hospital, and what's the Welsh Government doing about it?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I do think that we have to take these things very seriously. The fact is that we do have a hospital that's over 50 years old. There are others that are even older, and we have to make difficult decisions. The fact is that we have helped them with electrical infrastructure, and new lifts have been installed. But they have to decide on their own priorities. It is a help that we do have that additional capital budget in place now, and it's important that we do look to the future. I know that the future of the Heath will be looked at in the context of the other things that we need to do, but, certainly, we do need to see more modern infrastructure. Funding is the issue, in terms of how we can deliver that with the funding available to us. And, of course, additional capital helps. We need an idea of what that will look like for the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, Llywydd. First Minister, as we mark the eightieth anniversary of Victory in Europe Day this week, we are reminded of the valiant efforts of the wartime generation, who paid a very high price to secure victory over fascism in Europe, and not only that, but to secure the freedoms that we all enjoy here in Wales today. But there's a sober reminder too that we can't take these freedoms for granted, because, of course, war continues to rage in eastern Europe due to Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine—a country that I visited, along with a number of other MSs, over the Easter recess, my second visit since the start of the war. I was struck when I visited this time by how much people in Ukraine appreciate the solidarity of the people of Wales and the support of the Senedd for their war efforts. So, can you provide us with an update today on the action that's being taken by the Welsh Government to support the Ukrainian people in the face of Russian aggression?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I too would like to pay tribute, this week in particular, to those who have fought for our freedom, and in particular those who fought for our freedom in the second world war. Obviously, we will be noting the end of that war later this week, and I'll be making a statement in relation to that after this.

Of course, we stand in solidarity with Ukraine. I think that is important. I know there are Members in this Chamber who have gone way above and beyond what can be expected of them, and I'd like to thank Mick Antoniw and Alun Davies in particular for their efforts on behalf of the people of Ukraine—quite remarkable the enthusiasm that they've brought to this. And it's not over; Putin is creating serious damage to that country, and there are people still dying every day. We are a country that is committed to peace—we have a peace academy—and of course we stand in solidarity with Ukraine.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm grateful for you saying that we stand in solidarity with Ukraine, and I've no doubt that that is the case. I was disappointed, though, that you didn't mention the important role that our defence industry is playing here in Wales. We play a key role in the defence industry in the United Kingdom, with over 160 companies employing more than 20,000 people. Weapons, ammunition, other supplies and new technologies from Wales are a key component in the fight for freedom in Ukraine, and, of course, for our national security in an ever increasingly uncertain world. That's why I was shocked to learn recently that the Development Bank of Wales excludes businesses in the defence sector from being able to apply for financial support. Please can you explain, First Minister, why that is the case, and what are you going to do to remove the restriction on the Development Bank of Wales from being able to invest in the defence companies that we need to see succeed in order to make sure that we have national security here at home and abroad?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Darren, you ask me consistently not to do too much internationally, and now you're asking me to focus on it. But, listen, I'm dead serious about our opportunities in relation to the defence industry. I think there are companies and businesses in Wales that can make a major contribution, and I think the fact that the Ministry of Defence now will be getting a significant uplift in its budget gives an opportunity for Welsh companies. But I'm happy to explore further what the situation is in relation to the Development Bank of Wales. I think that there's actually quite a lot of money that is likely to come from the MOD. There will be procurement systems. Sometimes, that means that it’s not possible for you to access funding from more than one direction.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm very disappointed by your response, First Minister. Of course we need to take advantage of the increased investment, quite rightly so, in our defence and security with the increases in funding that are coming from the UK Government on defence. That's absolutely the right thing. But I'm asking you here about things for which the Welsh Government is entirely responsible. You are responsible, through the remit letter that is sent to the Development Bank of Wales, for determining how and where that bank invests its money. For some reason, you currently have a restriction in place from the bank being able to invest in defence companies. These are an important part of our economy, but they're also important for our national security. So, I ask you again not just to look into this, but to confirm today that you will change that restriction, make sure that it's abolished, so that our defence companies, which need to grow, which need to thrive from an economy point of view, can also do so from a national security point of view, so that we get our fair share of the UK Government's investment in defence in the future.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I've told you that I’m happy to explore this further, to have a look at what’s possible. I just think we need to be careful, as accessing money from one particular approach may mean that they won’t be able to access procurement contracts from the MOD. I’d just like to explore that further before committing to this.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru leader, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch, Llywydd. It was reported last week that the First Minister criticised Labour MPs from Wales for not standing up for Wales. Can she confirm whether she did indeed call them out directly for their ambivalence towards Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

What happens between me and Welsh Labour MPs is a matter for us. But what I will tell you is that we have focused in the Labour Party on listening to the people of Wales, on delivering on those priorities, and we're able to do that because we've got significant additional funding from the UK Government. What we will do, and what I will do, is make sure that I stand up for Wales at every single opportunity. I will do that. I've made that very clear this morning. I will not stay silent if we see unfairness. I will not stay silent if we think there will be issues that harm Welsh communities. It is important that we take this opportunity to make sure we get our fair share for the people of Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

On that meeting with Labour MPs from Wales, the First Minister said this:

'we have a good relationship...there will be times when we perhaps see things in a different light. That's ok. Everyone needs to relax.'

It's contemptuous, really. She's relaxed about her own party acting against Wales's interests, from the betrayal of steelworkers and pensioners, HS2, the Crown Estate, welfare cuts and winter fuel cuts, the anti-business national insurance hike, a national insurance hike that the public sector in England, of course, has been compensated for and Wales is being hit with a £65 million bill for, by the way. Surely the Labour Party in Wales should have been united in condemnation, but instead their leader has been a cheerleader at worst, and silent at best.

Rhodri Morgan tried to put 'clear red water' between himself and Tony Blair. It is a phrase that he is often linked to, but I was a journalist covering that speech at the time, and I know that he never actually said those words. The First Minister, though, today offered us a 'red Welsh way'. But isn't the difference between her and Rhodri Morgan that he meant it but never said it, whilst she did say it, but no-one believes she actually means it at all?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think it's quite outrageous that a party like yours, who should understand how devolution works, who should understand that actually it's okay for us to do something different in Wales, that actually it's quite appropriate for us to make sure that we are responding to the needs of the Welsh public—. And that's what we're doing, and if that's different in Wales, then I think we should relax. I think it is important that we do what we think is right for Wales and, of course, Keir Starmer will do what he thinks is right for the United Kingdom. But I will stand up for Wales on every occasion, and when I see injustice, like on rail funding, like on the fact that we don't get enough money in relation to coal tip removal, like on the fact that the Crown Estate is not giving us enough in Wales, I think it's important that we set out how we are politically distinct. But the difference between us is that we can sit in a room, we can argue this out and we can deliver. Now let's see if we're able to deliver in the next few months.

I think that it is important for us to recognise that this is a challenge to the UK Labour Government. We are in the same family, but there are times when families go their distinctive way. But we come back together because we share the same values—values that speak to the people of Wales. Don't forget, values that have helped to ensure that over 130,000 people in Wales have had an increase in their salaries because of the real living wage and the minimum wage. There are serious advantages to the people of Wales that we've had so far from the Welsh Labour Government. And let's not forget that Plaid Cymru and the Tories voted together to block significant money coming into our communities, which would have stopped us from being able to bring those waiting lists down.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Plaid Cymru voted against the budget because we disagreed with Labour's budget. It is as simple as that, and I wish that the First Minister could understand it. She talks about Labour as a family; it is a political party. It is a political party that this First Minister is asking people to vote for whilst confirming again today that she is perfectly happy for Labour MPs from Wales to vote against Wales's interests, time and time again.

The First Minister said—and enjoyed saying it in these sessions, on a number of occasions—that she has more influence over Keir Starmer than I will ever have. I've made it clear that I want to have a very constructive relationship with any UK Prime Minister, but it'll be an honest and a transparent one. The problem for the First Minister is that, if their partnership in power meant something, surely we should have been able to see some evidence of that influence being used positively by now, and of course we haven't. The First Minister is trying now to perform some high-wire act, balancing between supporting and apparently opposing Keir Starmer, who isn't even listening to her.

What changes? That's the question. What changes now for Wales from the First Minister having yet another new slogan? Now that she's confirmed that she's staying in post, apparently, in what area will we see the first impact of today's PR exercise, and by when?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

You voted against money going into those communities in Wales. That's the fact that people need to recognise. The fact is that the No. 1 priority for the people of Wales was to try to bring those waiting lists down. Because of that additional money, they are coming down. You voted with the Tories against that money—£4 billion in jeopardy because of the way you acted, because you want to do political posturing rather than actually focusing on the people in your communities.

Already we've had £1.6 billion additional funding into the Welsh Government's coffers. It is important for us to recognise that. We have set out today a whole series of areas where we want to see partnership in power delivering more. I'm not embarrassed by that, I'm not ashamed by that, I am standing up for my country. Country will always come first, ahead of party. That is what I've made clear today.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

3. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's efforts to introduce annual health monitoring for firefighters? OQ62667

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We have worked in close partnership with the fire and rescue service and unions to reduce the risks to the health of firefighters, and will continue to do so.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Back in February, you indicated that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care had asked the chief medical officer to urgently look into preventative health monitoring for firefighters. However, in response to a recent written question I submitted specifically seeking an update on the chief medical officer's work in this area, the Cabinet Secretary made no reference to the chief medical officer or any of the work on that matter. So, could you clarify today whether the chief medical officer has in fact been asked to look into annual health monitoring for firefighters, and, if so, whether any advice or recommendations have been provided?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, and thanks for your perseverance on this really important matter. It is absolutely shocking to see the risks for firefighters when it comes to certain cancers, and it is important we take that seriously. So, thank you for that.

I have inquired specifically about where we're at in relation to the chief medical officer. What's happened since you asked the last question in February, I think it was, is that we've changed the chief medical officer. We're just waiting for the new chief medical officer. She's just taken up her post recently. We have asked her to look at this as a matter of priority.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

First Minister, our firefighters regularly put their health on the line to deal with threats to ours. The least we can do is to ensure that they are protected from preventable harms. Annual health monitoring is the least we can do. We also need to ensure that they have full access to decontamination facilities. We know from research that firefighters are getting cancer at higher rates at a younger age than the general population. This is due to their exposure to contaminants during firefighting. However, the exposure can continue well after the fire is dealt with. Contaminated kit such as dirty gloves, clothes and helmets can put firefighters at risk from toxic substances. First Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure our firefighters always have access to decontamination facilities and procedures? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. The statistics are absolutely shocking when it comes to seeing the risks that they take. Firefighters are 365 per cent more likely to get cancer as a result of their job. That is a massive figure and obviously something we need to take seriously, and that's why we are taking it seriously. I know what's happened: there's been an agreement between employers and unions to reduce exposure to smoke-filled environments. All fire and rescue services now have adopted best practice in the use and maintenance of breathing apparatus, but we'll look into that specific suggestion you have to see if that's something we should additionally look at.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the potential impact of the proposed tourism levy on visitor numbers and the wider tourism economy in north Wales? OQ62666

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language introduced the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Bill on 25 November. The impact assessments for the proposals have been published on our website. An explanatory memorandum and regulatory impact assessment is available via the Senedd webpages.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

As you know, First Minister, I represent areas such as Rhyl, which, in comparison to the glory days of seaside holidays, have struggled in recent decades, with many business operators telling me of their current issues as a result of your UK Labour Government's hike in national insurance employer contributions and the general rise in costs as a result of your party's policies. On top of this, they have increased anxiety over the proposed tourism tax from your Government, which they are saying, in their own words, will create additional barriers to tourism and harm investment, stifle growth and economic development in areas that are currently struggling. We need to be breaking down barriers to tourism, not building them, First Minister. So, what direct message can you give to my constituents that this tourism tax will benefit the communities that I represent in Denbighshire, or is it another case of Labour taxing more and delivering less, just like the Labour-run Denbighshire County Council?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Visitor levies are used successfully all over the world. Just in the past couple of weeks, Liverpool have also said that they're going to be introducing a visitor levy. It's not unusual. The fact is that, if you ask residents, the majority of respondents agree that tourists should contribute towards the cost of maintaining and investing in the destinations where they stay. You ask about Rhyl; well, I visited Rhyl recently and I can tell you that it's on the up. It looks a hell of a lot different from when I've seen it in the past. It's had massive investment from the Welsh Government, working with the local authority. That is what the tourism people in your area want to see more than anything—the town looking much more prosperous. That will attract more people, far more than, actually, the concerns you have in relation to the visitor levy.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

The additional funding generated from the levy could lead to improved visitor experiences and therefore be a boost to the tourism economy—for example, improving transport and parking, more toilet facilities, more officials on the beaches and so on. So, I welcome the Bill.

The Bill does create a register of holiday property for the first time. Can I ask you to ensure that the register is one that includes detailed definitions of the different types of short-term holiday accommodation? For example, is it property that is appropriate as long-term residential property? We need that full data in order to create policies in both housing and tourism for the future.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. Well, you are quite right. I think that the levy, because the idea is that there is a ring fence to earmark that funding for tourism—. I think that will be of assistance. I think that local communities see the huge pressures that exist in some places in terms of the numbers arriving, and of course there is a very warm welcome for them, but we need to ensure that the facilities are available for them.

You ask about the register. Well, a process of registration for providers will begin in October 2026, and we will look then at how much detail is needed in that process of registration.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure parity between mental and physical health services? OQ62672

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

'A Healthier Wales' sets out the vision for health and social care in Wales. This is a vision that recognises that we need to provide an equitable level of treatment, care or support to people throughout their lives, irrespective of whether it's a matter of physical or mental health.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much for that response.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I want to talk a little bit about the mental health needs of care-experienced young people. Many of us know that their needs are much, much higher than the population in general. They are four times more likely to suffer mental health difficulties, and in a study that was done in November 2024, only 50 per cent actually knew where to go in order to access mental health support.

Some of us across this Siambr are working together to ensure that we perhaps look at prioritising the mental health needs of care-experienced young people through a new Bill for the Welsh Senedd—Bil pob plentyn—which ensures that young people who are from that background, and we know many of them have had tragedies in their lives and a terribly abusive upbringing meaning that their mental health needs are much greater than those of us in this Siambr and children across Wales—. So, can I ask, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that care-experienced young people have priority access to mental health services? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. Our new mental health and well-being strategy, which was launched just last week by the Minister, Sarah Murphy, complements the new national multi-agency practice framework for children's services. This is something that people absolutely realise has got to be a priority. And we have recently updated our waiting time guidance to ensure that looked-after children are not disadvantaged should they move between health board areas whilst they are on a waiting list for treatment. That is really important, because some of them do move around, and, as you say, these are very vulnerable children who need that mental health support.

There's going to be another care-experience summit on 10 May. The commitment of this Government is absolutely serious when it comes to looked-after children. Five Government Ministers will be attending that event, so we are taking this seriously, and we'll certainly make sure that mental health is an area that is explored with them, and certainly we need to make sure that they have access in a way that understands that they have particular needs.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

First Minister, we often hear commitments to achieve parity between mental and physical health—it's referenced in the new mental health and well-being strategy—but in practice, we are still seeing those significant disparities across the system. Waiting times for mental health support are often far longer than for physical treatments and early intervention is also under-resourced, and many areas still lack accessible local mental health support. So, what we need to hear from you is what concrete—concrete—actions is the Welsh Government doing to specifically to ensure the parity of esteem between mental and physical health services. What we don't need to see is more shiny policy documents or more committees being set up to look at these things. What we need to see is actual delivery on the ground, helping people in their communities, because I don't think that anyone should have to wait to have their condition diagnosed or supported just because you cannot see it. And I'd like to see what I said: concrete actions you are doing to address the disparity between the two issues.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. This is an area that we take very seriously. The fact that we published a refreshed new plan, a new strategy, and that there is a delivery programme that runs alongside it demonstrates how seriously we take this, and the fact that we have the '111 press 2' service in Wales, which doesn't exist in other parts of the United Kingdom. Of course, we've got a long way to go, but I really think it's important that people recognise that, actually, we have made some significant strides already in relation to mental health. So, when you look at the figures for the under 18s, 92 per cent of them are seen within 28 days, and when it comes to from assessment to intervention, for over 18s, 92 per cent of them have an actual intervention within 28 days.

So, this is massive progress compared to where we were, and I really think it's important that we underline that. There was a stage a few years ago where people had to wait for years to get the support. That is not the case anymore. Things have improved dramatically. We've always got more work to do, but I really think that we've started to shift the dial on this important matter that really affects a huge number of people in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

6. How is the Welsh Government working with stakeholders to tackle the nature crisis? OQ62670

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Today’s Senedd biodiversity day celebrates how collaboration with stakeholders helps tackle the nature crisis and is central to building a greener, fairer, more resilient Wales. Through investment in initiatives such as Nature Networks, partnerships like the pollinators taskforce and biodiversity targets, we’re driving positive change for nature and people together.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for your response. It was great to have the second annual biodiversity day in the Senedd, with about 25 organisations coming along—they're doing great work to protect our environment. As nature is springing to life around us and we can hear the dawn chorus and see the wild flowers, it's sometimes difficult to believe that we are actually facing a nature crisis, with one in six species at risk of extinction. I remember a time when there used to be an abundance of butterflies, and the amount of insects squashed on the windscreen or attached to your body when you were cycling on the lanes—. But that's changed. Sixty per cent of flying insects have decreased over the recent years; that's huge, isn't it? And the amount of garden birds that are no longer around as well—. It happens steadily, and we don't notice it. We ignore this decline at our peril.

So, First Minister, I'm concerned at the moment about the worrying rhetoric from climate emergency deniers here and internationally. Will you take this opportunity today to state clearly that this Welsh Government is committed to tackling the nature crisis for ourselves, for our future generations to come and for nature? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Carolyn, and thanks for your leadership on this matter. I know the Welsh Government is fully committed to tackling the nature crisis. Our children will hold us to account on this. I think we've got to take it very seriously. We completely reject any rhetoric that denies the urgency of the climate and nature emergencies, whether here or internationally, and that's why we're embedding urgency into our policies. We've got some legislation already. We've got the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we've got the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and, of course, now we have the environment Bill, which will be introduced before summer recess, and that's going to embed environmental principles into Welsh law and establish a target-setting framework for biodiversity.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

7. What steps is the Government taking to develop the skills needed to accelerate the process of upgrading and improving homes? OQ62665

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We support the training and upskilling of construction sector workers through a range of funded programmes. Thanks to this investment and investment in the optimised retrofit programme, we have funded energy efficiency retrofit in 13,000 social homes across Wales. This work is helping homes to use energy more efficiently.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

We are facing a huge challenge in upgrading 1.4 million homes. You talk about 13,000; it's 1.4 million homes that need to be upgraded to deliver net-zero targets and to tackle fuel poverty here in Wales. You will be aware of the lengthy campaign in Arfon to put right the deficient work done under the Government's Arbed programme. Now, there are many lessons to be learned from that experience, including the need to create a local, reliable workforce to carry out the necessary work. You talk about plans and strategies that your Government has brought forward, but how much evidence is there on the ground that there is a specific focus on training and upskilling the workforce and local businesses to carry out this crucial work of upgrading and improving our homes?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. We do have this programme, the optimised retrofit programme, as I mentioned. So, you're right, this is a start, but what is important is that we have this programme, but you were right, people are then needed to do this work, and that's why we have invested. We have apprenticeships, of course, and there are over 2,000 of those in the construction sector. So, these are people who will be able to help us do the kind of work that needs to be done in your constituency as a result of the fact that there have been issues with things such as the programme. So, I do hope that those apprenticeships are helping. A hundred per cent of those training courses can come from Welsh Government. It's important to note that additional funding has gone towards further education colleges as well, and those, too, train people.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

First Minister, there's currently a massive lack of construction workers here in Wales. Based on current figures, Wales needs over 10,000 extra construction workers to meet that demand. It was a really positive step, I thought, to introduce a GCSE in built environment for centres like colleges and schools across Wales to teach, and it's important that we grow participation in those courses to ensure that we can meet those future demands. So, I was just wondering whether the Welsh Government currently has figures on the take-up of that GCSE across Wales, please, and what measures this Government is putting in place to ensure that take-up of this important subject can actually grow. Diolch.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Well, it is important that we get people to learn in the trades where we need support, and I know that the skills Minister is absolutely focused on that and understands, in particular in relation to the construction sector—. Let’s not pretend that this is a unique problem to Wales. What we have here, though, is a shared apprenticeship scheme, and this is very different to what’s on offer in other places, because some companies are reluctant, because of the nature of the contracts that they get, to take on an apprentice. But, through this shared apprenticeship scheme, it means that there’s an umbrella organisation that always looks after the apprentices. And that makes a huge difference, and that’s why we’ve been able to get to our target—we’re just about to hit it by the end of the Senedd term—of 100,000 apprentices this Senedd term. But, you’re quite right, we need to start in GCSEs; we need to start them early to make sure that there’s a pathway for them and that we can build the houses that people need in their communities.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

8. What support does the Welsh Government provide for people with sensory loss? OQ62637

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Ensuring appropriate support for people with sensory loss is a priority for this Government. We are reforming and investing in high-quality services and supporting health boards in their planning and commissioning arrangements. This facilitates good access to high-quality sensory services to improve people’s outcomes consistently across Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. When I questioned you here in January on the Welsh Government’s action to ensure that town centres and outdoor public places are accessible for blind and partially sighted people, you stated that the Cabinet Secretary for transport was already working on this issue. However, noting your response, then, Guide Dogs Cymru then e-mailed stating, 'I’m afraid that blind and vision-impaired people are rarely consulted on placemaking plans, in spite of the Welsh Government’s expectations and the legal requirement for equality impact assessments to demonstrate accessible and meaningful engagement.'

In a similar vein, the Royal National Institute for Deaf People’s latest report, ‘Still ignored: the fight for accessible healthcare’ has found that, despite the all-Wales standards for accessible communication and information being introduced more than a decade ago, in 2013, fewer than one in five agreed that their information and communication needs are met more often now than a decade ago. Will your Welsh Government therefore introduce, at last, effective monitoring of all-Wales accessibility standards for people with sensory loss, involving them in the process, and, if so, when and how?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I think it is important that we use people with lived experience to help shape our policies; this is something that I know Ministers are very keen to do. I met recently with a group from the Royal National Institute of Blind People who had been giving advice on how to make our trains more user friendly. So, this is definitely happening in some areas, and I will ask the relevant Minister to make sure that this is something that’s being undertaken when it comes to town-centre development.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. Additional time has been allocated for the Stage 3 debate on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill. Business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Can I call for a statement from you, Minister, in your other capacity as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice? You may be aware that Europe Netball's open tournament was scheduled to take place in Cardiff this week, but, unfortunately, the organisers decided to cancel the event because they were concerned about the safety of the Israeli national team that was scheduled to participate.

Now, I'm sure that all of us in this Chamber would agree that those who visit Wales should always feel safe while they are here, and it is completely unacceptable that a small minority of people have acted in a way that has threatened the safety, effectively, of the Israeli team if they wanted to take part. In fact, I was absolutely horrified to read that the coach of the Israeli team actually said that she would feel safer playing in the United Arab Emirates, or Israel itself, which, of course, is at war with Hamas, rather than here in Wales, on the basis of safety. I think that that's a concern, and I'd like to know what the Welsh Government is going to do to be able to ensure that events such as these, which we work hard to win for Wales, actually can take place when they are scheduled, without disappointing the many fans and players who work hard in order to participate in them.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. I'm not aware of the outcome and the discussions that led to this scheduled football—netball, apologies—event not going ahead, in terms of those plans. Clearly, we want all sport to be internationally—to welcome teams to Wales. Obviously, there is a particular difficulty in terms of what's happening in the middle east, which has had a bearing on this, and no doubt that has had a bearing on the situation that has arisen.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Trefnydd, I'm not sure if you're aware but, in July 2023, I sponsored an event at the Pierhead, attended by many other Senedd Members who are here today, where we welcomed the Freedom Flotilla Coalition on its mission to sail for the children of Gaza and take aid to Gaza. I'm sure, at that time, that we couldn't have foreseen the horrors that would follow. But, in the early hours of Friday morning, the ship caught fire 14 miles from Malta. The group are claiming that this was as a result of an Israeli drone attack. The Israeli military has declined to comment on the alleged attack, but the facts are still being established. It is clear that aid is desperately needed in Gaza. Can I ask, therefore: will the Welsh Government use its voice to condemn the attack, to call for an end to the blockade, and also to call for an investigation into this incident?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, thank you for that question and, indeed, that was a very important event that you held, that you sponsored, back in 2023, in terms of aid for children of Gaza. And don't children in Gaza now need that aid desperately—desperately? And the lack of humanitarian aid reaching children in Gaza and Gaza is something that is unacceptable to us, I know, here in this Senedd, in terms of our support—indeed, the £100,000 that we made available to the Disasters Emergency Committee. I then met with the Disasters Emergency Committee to discuss how that aid could be used. Now, of course, it has all come to a halt, because the ceasefire came to a halt. So, we do, all, I'm sure, across this Chamber, and Welsh Government, hope that there will be a return to negotiation, that there will be a permanent ceasefire, and that we look to those children in Gaza, to get that aid, that humanitarian aid, to them, and wholly regret what is happening in terms of that conflict and the impact that it's having, particularly on children and young people.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'd like to ask for two statements today, please. The first is in regard to the news that the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board has withdrawn its funding to Cardiff and Vale Action for Mental Health. I understand that the three-year contractual period has ended, and the decision has been taken not to renew the funding commitment, which will see the service stop in September. I think we all know that Cardiff and Vale Action for Mental Health provide an absolutely essential service, supporting voluntary groups and third sector organisations with their mental health provision, and their website is a one-stop shop. So, I was very concerned to hear about this news, and wondered what the Government's response would be.

Secondly, I would like to highlight the Women's Equality Network's—WEN's—diversity and inclusion toolkit, which was published last week, I think it was, to help political parties with their selection of candidates in the run-up to the Senedd election. I know that the Government has worked very hard on producing guidance for political parties on diversity and inclusion for the Senedd elections, and I wondered whether it would be possible to promote WEN's toolkit, and that these two areas of policy would work together.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan, for those—

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

—very important questions.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I did become aware, and, indeed, at the weekend there was some publicity, about the loss of funding to Cardiff and Vale Action for Mental Health, and I have to put a constituency interest here in that it covers the Vale of Glamorgan, and the great work for many, many years undertaken by this group was acknowledged by our local voluntary services as well. So, it is very regrettable, the loss of funding. It is important that, in terms of the health board, on this occasion, we fund—. We obviously allocate funding. We do not engage with how they are distributing that funding, but we do look to those organisations to explain how they managed and handled this, how they consulted and also looked at the impact of that loss of funding. So, I hope that there will be, as a result of this public awareness now, some recognition of the loss of that funding, and that it will be considered.

I very much welcome, as well, the launch of the diverse and equal representation toolkit on 1 May by the Diverse5050 coalition. The toolkit very much complements our diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties, which we published on 31 March. It is of course available, the toolkit, for all parties to use alongside our Welsh Government guidance to inform their diversity and inclusion strategies and ongoing work. Indeed, I am going to be making an oral statement on diversity and inclusion guidance in due course, but now is the time when those who may be interested in coming forward across all political parties to put themselves forward for selection for political parties for next year. This toolkit will be so helpful to them. There are very practical ideas about types of activities and actions parties can engage in to ensure that candidates for elected office reflect the communities of Wales. So, as we approach the election next year, now is the time for all parties to ensure their selection processes for our Welsh Parliament truly reflect a modern and diverse Wales. I think that's a really important point the First Minister was making today: a modern and diverse Wales. We have a real opportunity now, with the expansion of the Senedd, Senedd reform, to enable more diverse candidates to come forward.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Could I ask for a statement, please, from the Welsh Government on the great wall of Clydach in Monmouthshire? Residents of Gilwern are outraged at the bright, shiny, 6 ft high, 200m steel fence at the Bannau Brycheiniog national park, dubbed 'the great wall of Clydach'. Installed by the council as a safety measure to prevent rockfall, which is understandable, the fence has sparked strong opposition from locals due to its ugly appearance and the lack of public consultation. Some residents are calling for it to be taken down, whilst others are happy for it to be painted green, to reflect the natural beauty of the area. It would be great to have a statement to know of conversations that the Government have had with the national park and Monmouthshire County Council to find an acceptable way forward on this. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Laura Anne Jones. It is interesting—the great wall of Clydach; I don't think many of us have seen that yet. I am sure that it has been placed there for safety purposes. Bannau Brycheiniog is responsible for this national park, in partnership with Monmouthshire council, and you've aired your concerns and I'm sure you will be engaging with both those authorities on this issue.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd call for a Government debate, please, on the importance of libraries to our communities. Across Caerphilly borough, 10 libraries are at risk of closure. Sites in Nelson, Llanbradach, in Bedwas, Abertridwr and Machen, Deri, Pengam, Aberbargoed, Abercarn and Oakdale all face closure. Residents who rely on these libraries are waiting nervously for the results of the council's consultation. The overwhelming majority of responses had pleaded with the council to keep these sites open, because libraries are more than buildings. They are centres of support for the vulnerable, corners of our community, and treasure troves for children. How short-sighted it would be to shutter those spaces of comfort and wonder. Now, Governments have a duty to provide library services. In times of austerity, surely more support must be given to councils to make sure they're kept open. The outcome of this consultation is fast approaching, so can we have an urgent debate to try and save these libraries and keep them open?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Delyth Jewell. Well, this has been raised in the Chamber, and of course it is a consultation, which is ongoing. It’s a consultation that's been initiated by Caerphilly council, looking at the pressures and priorities in terms of that authority, although, indeed, as a result of the £1.6 billion budget—which, of course, will come through for next year—local government is in a better place.

But I think it is important that the consultation and the responses are received. And we know that, across Wales, and certainly in my constituency, and many others, we have seen the way in which libraries can be continued and sustained, perhaps under different ownership in terms of town and community councils, local community groups. And I’m sure that that will be in the mix of the difficult decisions that will need to be made in terms of the future of those libraries.

But you’re absolutely right: there’s no question about the importance of libraries. They’re hubs, and many councils have used our warm hubs funding to support their libraries as a place to be, to get information and support, as well as access, of course, to those all-important book loans.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I chair the Public and Commercial Services Union cross-party group in the Senedd. I’m asking for a Government statement on the working terms and conditions of Welsh Government funded staff who work for stand-alone agencies such as the National Library of Wales. I was surprised to discover that the national library has its own pension scheme for 250 members. As a member of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, I’m aware of the problems encountered at the national museum, but sharing a payroll, human resources and other back-office functions for all these organisations would save money.

I’m also asking for a Government statement on river bank erosion, which is occurring on the River Tawe, and I’d be very surprised if this was not occurring on other rivers during periods of heavy rainfall. I, and my constituents, are concerned that we’ll see a loss of land and the silting up of the river nearer the sea.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. Yes, that’s a really important question in terms of what was fed back to you by the PCS members, and looking at one example in terms of the pension scheme and the national library. Of course, staff terms and conditions for Welsh Government funded arm’s-length bodies are set by their respective governance arrangements, often historical in terms of their inception. But they’re guided by the ‘Managing Welsh Public Money’ guidance, and wider public sector terms. But it is important that there are ways in which boards are looking at how they can best work together, in terms of governance, in terms of management of schemes such as pension schemes, which can help, not just to support staff, but to produce savings. But we are reviewing how we can pull together a clearer process in terms of those responsibilities for arm’s-length bodies.

And what I would say as a result of your question is that it’s so important, our commitment to social partnership, and to engage with our trade unions, which, of course, we would expect of those arm’s-length bodies, as a result of our commitment to social partnership and the legislation.

On your question about the River Tawe bank erosion, we are aware of concerns about river bank slippages along the River Tawe, particularly since the storms we saw last winter. Natural Resources Wales has been in contact—. There’s been contact made with NRW about understanding the issues. Now, of course, you’re aware of the landowners, the riparian landowners, who own the land adjacent to a river stream, and, of course, that is very historical, in terms of the common law for many years. So, what is important is that NRW is engaged. It has produced a guidance document for landowners particularly. And, of course, the issue of fallen trees isn’t limited to the Tawe; it’s replicated across many of Wales’s main rivers following storm Darragh in December.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I’d like to ask for two statements, if I may, one from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on the increased waiting times for patients at Powys Teaching Health Board. The recent announcement that patients referred to English hospitals will face longer waiting times as part of efforts to reduce financial deficits is deeply concerning.

My second request for a statement is something that I know others in the Siambr will join me in, and that's with regard to Welsh Government action in terms of pressing the UK Government on the terrible situation in Gaza. People in Gaza, particularly, as we know, children, are facing literally a fight to death every day in order to get food. The blockade that is in existence from the Israeli Government is starving people to death. I do call on the Welsh Government to ensure that there is action from the UK Government to press the international community to ensure that the blockade is lifted and people can start to survive. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. It is important when we look at your first question, in terms of Powys Teaching Health Board and cross-border waiting times, of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care—. We provided an additional £5.5 million funding to Powys Teaching Health Board last financial year, on top of its core financial allocation, which included that acknowledgement of the additional cost to the health board of the commissioning position for Powys residents being treated in England, to meet the Welsh waiting times target. It's important that the Welsh Government and NHS partners are working with the health board to help it make those improvements to deliver sustainable improvements. Of course, you will be aware of the Better Together programme, launched on 28 April, seeking the views of the public and key stakeholders—that's the health board—and looking at each area of its services in turn. And it is focusing, in fact, in 2025 on community and adult mental health services.

Thank you for raising again the deeply troubling situation of the ongoing conflict and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which has already been aired this afternoon. Of course, matters relating to foreign policy are for the UK Government, but we look outwards, don't we? We have concern, an international view, in terms of how we seek to engage and support, and we have engaged and supported, as I've already said. It is really important that we look at this, that we air it. It's very much in the news at the moment in terms of what's happening. And indeed, the disagreements within Israel, I think it is important to recognise that in terms of just the plight of the hostages as well and their families. And then the situation where those in Gaza, not just in terms of the humanitarian situation and the risk and the suffering of those children and families, but then the political discussion now, which I'm sure that the UK Government will be seeking to influence, to support those in Gaza and indeed Palestine as a whole.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'd like to raise a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, regarding the continued use of routine premolar extraction in teenagers receiving orthodontic treatment on the NHS here in Wales. Orthodontists are still split on this issue, but more recent evidence from leading orthodontists, as reported in The Times, raised serious concerns about this long-standing practice. I have met with constituents who believe their lives have been significantly impacted having undergone this procedure as adolescents. Many clinicians now argue that the extraction of healthy premolar teeth, often carried out to make room for overcrowding, can cause long-term harm. These harms may involve narrowed airways and even a high risk of developing sleep apnoea later in life, with some experts advocating for non-extraction approaches using jaw expansion techniques, which maintain facial structure and support long-term oral health.

So, can I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary outlining whether the Welsh Government has reviewed the clinical evidence around this practice, and what steps, if any, are being taken to update the NHS orthodontic protocols in light of modern best practice? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Gareth Davies. Well, this is, as you say, very much a clinical issue and obviously there are different views and practices. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has heard your question today and observations about this, but it is important that it is brought to our attention because of the concerns about the impacts that clinical practice can have, particularly on young people and adolescents.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'd like a statement, please, from the First Minister, making clear the Welsh Government's position on the news that Israeli Ministers have approved a plan to occupy all of Gaza indefinitely and calling on the UK Labour Government to end all arms sales to Israel and recognise the state of Palestine.

Foreign policy is not devolved, as you just mentioned, but you've had three questions about this issue today. And as previously pointed out to the Welsh Ministers by the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, in a letter to the First Minister, Wales has a responsibility to act as a globally responsible nation, to show leadership on this matter, and to advocate for the cessation of arms sales. This illegal plan would, in the words of the United Nations, inevitably lead to the death and suffering of countless more civilians in Gaza and the further destruction of Gaza.

Again, the First Minister has remained silent while other national leaders have spoken out. Scotland's First Minister, John Swinney, is one of those who has said there must be no illegal occupation of Gaza and has called for the recognition of a Palestinian state. The DEC has said that the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is deteriorating every day. You've just referred to it. And the Welsh Government, of course, has financially supported those efforts. So, I'd like to know what conversations have happened with the UK Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to prevent this exacerbation of an already dire situation, because it calls for a full arms embargo.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. And again, as I said, it has been raised this afternoon, and indeed I know the First Minister would have responded if it had been raised with her in her First Minister's questions. She regularly does acknowledge the suffering and the issue and the need for a cessation of hostilities to enable the humanitarian support that we have actually played our part in as a Welsh Government, in contributing to the Disasters Emergency Committee.

It is a matter for the UK Government, and I know that the UK Government is committed to that cessation of hostilities, to that two-state solution, and to engaging with and also addressing the issues in terms of arms sales, which David Lammy has done so. So, this is something where, again, we are looking outwards. We're looking at those who we see across the world suffering in terms of conflict. Thank you for raising it again. We've had the opportunity to share our concerns, and, of course, we will be raising this on every opportunity.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I'd like to share the concerns raised by colleagues from the other side of the Chamber. This is a very distressing thing. I've had constituents coming to me with pictures of very malnourished children, who obviously look like they're something out of a concentration camp. It really is horrendous. But I don't need you to repeat the concerns that you've already expressed.

I just wanted to ask, the future generations commissioner, last week, has asked the Welsh Government to commit to becoming a Marmot nation, which is all about reducing inequalities, particularly in terms of healthy life expectancy. I'm sure that we all want to see a halt in the rise in obesity, driving down air pollution, improving the insulation of homes. I just wondered if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government to set out what it would take for us to realistically adopt this commitment to being a Marmot nation. I know that Gwent has adopted being a Marmot region, but what would we need to do in order to become a Marmot nation?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much. I can confirm that Wales is a Marmot nation. What we may need to do is to clarify what that means, because of course that covers every aspect of policy. Professor Michael Marmot has been fully engaged in Wales, and not just in terms of issues around health, because, as you know, he was on the independent constitutional committee chaired by Laura McAllister and Rowan Williams. He has influenced policy, as you say, and a public services board is seeing what it means to be a Marmot region. He also was on the advisory board for our basic income pilot work as well. And I'm sure that, in terms of the recognition by the future generations commissioner of this opportunity that a Marmot nation can provide with this, we can take this forward. I have got a statement on the tenth anniversary of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so I will seek to address this in that statement as well, because it is a recognition coming from our future generations commissioner, but it's clearly something that we—. I think this does go back to where Wales is distinctive, where we see ourselves as a nation, tackling inequality, because inequality causes harm to people's lives, and he has driven his whole life as being about showing the links between inequality in ill health and, indeed, also the fact that it harms communities and the economy as well. So, we very much subscribe to the Marmot nation.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Trefnydd, I heard your previous response, but asking health providers in England to slow down the delivery of care for Powys patients, despite there being sufficient capacity, is indefensible. It is not acceptable for Powys patients to be treated as second-class citizens. These measures will come into force from July, unless there's intervention. I raised this matter with the First Minister in March. I'm pleased to say the First Minister agreed that the situation is not acceptable. Can I ask for an urgent statement from the health Cabinet Secretary to confirm that the Welsh Government will fund Powys Teaching Health Board to fund and treat patients according to English waiting time targets? Or, given the fact, of course, that the Welsh Government are ultimately responsible for the NHS in Wales and for Powys patients, will they instruct the health board that they cannot progress with these plans, which the Welsh Government themselves have referred to as unacceptable? I'm pleased that the health Cabinet Secretary and the First Minister are in the room—in the Chamber—today, but I should add I asked the First Minister in a letter nearly four weeks ago if this matter could be given urgent attention and clarity. I have yet to receive a reply. This is a time-sensitive matter and intervention is urgently needed from the Welsh Government.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Russell George. Can I assure you, and make it very clear, that residents and citizens of Powys are not being treated as second-class citizens in terms of our expectations and in terms of cross-border waiting times? Of course, you can put your questions and, as you say, you've already raised this question. You can put your questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. What the Welsh Government is committed to is ensuring that people have equitable and timely access to good-quality healthcare services in all parts of Wales. And Powys is in a different situation in terms of how the needs of the patients are met in terms of secondary and specialist care, but, of course, that's long-standing. And that extra funding, I think, for Powys Teaching Health Board, on top of its core financial allocation, was that acknowledgement, as I said in response to Jane Dodds, of the additional cost of the health board commissioning position for Powys residents being treated in England. Of course, we do have that expectation of all our health boards meeting the Welsh waiting times target. That's what the people of Wales want and that's what the people of Powys want, that we do actually meet that Welsh waiting times target, and we've given them resources to do it.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. We'll be marking VE Day on Thursday, but, of course, on Friday 9 May, we will also be marking Europe Day. And it's not a matter for the Welsh Government, but I hope that the Senedd will be flying the European flag on this estate to mark this important part of our heritage and, of course, the European Union. But will the Welsh Government commit to two things, business manager: first of all, to bring forward a statement on the damage that Brexit has been doing to Wales over recent years? It is important, as we face the next election, that the people of Wales understand the damage that this is doing to the fabric of our country and our communities. And, secondly, will the Welsh Government bring forward a debate on a motion to establish a public inquiry into Brexit? This is probably the most damaging thing that we've seen in peacetime facing Wales and facing the rest of the United Kingdom. It is important that we establish a public inquiry to understand exactly the damage that is being done to the fabric of this country by Brexit.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Alun Davies, and thank you for reminding us and drawing our attention to Europe Day. Europe Day is a day that—. I recall when the First Minister represented us in Europe, how there were so many celebrations on Europe Day, and we celebrated across Wales the ways in which European funding and being part of the European community had such positive benefits for us. According to the latest data, the volume of Welsh exports to the EU fell by around 31 per cent from 2019-24, and EU imports to Wales fell by 20 per cent. And the UK's exit from the EU is expected to reduce, as always—and now proven to be so—trade and productivity and to have a negative effect on the economy. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility's latest outlook, the UK's long-run productivity is expected to be 4 per cent lower relative to remaining in the EU. And the volume of exports and imports is projected to be around 15 per cent lower in the long term. So, we know and we see the evidence of the damage that Brexit has done to Wales. So, thank you again for reminding us. But, of course, there are opportunities in terms of the relationships that we have managed to sustain and which we want to see moving forward, and Europe Day gives us that opportunity.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the First Minister: VE Day

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 today is a statement by the First Minister on VE Day. I call on the First Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. The eighth of May 1945 marked the Allied victory over Nazi Germany and Victory in Europe or VE Day. It was and still remains a major milestone in our history, of deep importance to Wales, the UK and the wider world. It commemorates the end of a conflict that deeply affected Welsh communities, with over 15,000 Welsh people losing their lives and many more injured. The eighth of May 1945. What a day that was. A day that marked the Allied victory over Nazi Germany—VE Day, victory in Europe. This wasn't just another date in the history books; this was a moment that changed lives, that changed Wales, that changed our world.

For us in Wales, this wasn't some distant battlefield victory. This touched every street, every village, every family. Over 15,000 Welsh people never came home. Thousands more returned with wounds both visible and hidden. We must never forget them. And while we're marking VE Day now, I also want to acknowledge 15 August, Victory over Japan Day, when the second world war truly ended. We'll be in recess then, which is why I'm speaking about both today.

I've always thought that the word 'victory' can sometimes feel a bit harsh—winners and losers, and all that. I prefer to think of it as the end of war, the beginning of peace, because that's what truly matters. This anniversary is about honouring ordinary Welsh people who did extraordinary things—people who served far from home, people who kept our communities running through the darkest days. I know many Members here today will have their own family stories to share. Think about what our communities endured: loved ones gone for years, strict rationing and the terror of bombs falling. This wasn't a faraway war. It brought terror to Wales, in particular through the Blitz and its raids on the ports of south Wales and Pembroke Dock. My own father’s house took a direct hit took a direct hit in Tremorfa in Cardiff docks. It was utterly obliterated and luckily they'd just reached the Anderson shelter in time, whilst my mother, until very recently, talked about the one stray bomb that landed near the playground in St Davids in Pembrokeshire.

Can you imagine what that day felt like 80 years ago—the sheer relief and joy that swept across Wales? Church bells ringing out, streets filled with dancing, communities coming together after years of sacrifice. That spirit of togetherness, that's what we're trying to recreate this week. I've been so moved to see communities across Wales holding events, sharing food and stories. The Together Coalition's Big Lunch has been particularly wonderful, bringing people together just as they came together 80 years ago. I was deeply touched by the coalition's open letter from VE Day veterans, including our own Welsh voices: Jean Rees who served in the US Navy, and John Eskdale, a Royal Marine commando. Their words remind us what this commemoration truly means.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Tomorrow evening, we'll hold a national service of thanksgiving at Llandaff cathedral, a place that tells its own story of destruction and rebuilding. That mine crater caused by an explosion in 1941 is now a peaceful memorial garden. On VE Day itself, I'll be at Westminster Abbey with the Prime Minister and other leaders. Here at the Senedd, the Royal British Legion will hold a special commemoration, and I'm sure that many of you will be there too. My friend the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip will be there to represent our Government.

Most of those who fought are no longer with us, but, for our oldest citizens, those who were children at the time, VE Day remains one of those moments where they can tell you exactly where they were and how they felt when the end of the war was announced. And what I find most powerful about this anniversary is how it reminds us that our victory wasn't just Welsh or British, but that it was a global effort. People from every corner of the world came together to defeat the darkness of Nazism. That diversity is now reflected in who we are as a nation, and we should celebrate that.

But the contribution didn't just come from those in uniform. Think about the women working in our factories, the Bevin Boys down in the mines, the Land Army keeping us fed and the Merchant Navy keeping supplies flowing. Everyone played their part. When we see those iconic images of celebration in 1945, let us remember the complexity behind those images. For so many people, it was bittersweet—joy mixed with grief for those who would never return, and awareness that fighting continued in the far east.

Last week, I had the incredible honour of meeting two women—both of them were 101 years of age—who used to work at Bletchley Park. What an extraordinary privilege to speak with these remarkable individuals who changed the course of the war literally by helping to breath the Nazis' code. Through their brilliance, dedication and absolute secrecy, they succeeded in shortening the conflict by an estimated two to four years, saving countless lives. And what struck me most was that they kept everything so secret for decades. One of the women had never told her husband that she had been working at Bletchley. These are the unsung heroes—the mathematicians, linguists, typists, administrators.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

These anniversaries also make us reflect on the value and fragility of peace. I felt particularly proud that, in 2020, as Minister for international relations, I approved funding for the Academi Heddwch at the Welsh Centre for International Affairs. I believe deeply that Wales, though small, has an important voice in encouraging peace. The annual peace lecture demonstrates that commitment. We should remember too that Wales is home to the world's first department of international politics at Aberystwyth, established after the first world war specifically to further the cause of justice and peace. I often think about what Archbishop Rowan Williams, chair of the Academi Heddwch, says: 'Peace isn't just about the absence of conflict. It's about understanding one another as a gift; welcoming and treasuring one another, embracing what comes to us from our neighbours.'

Sadly, our world today still knows too much conflict. As we were during the second world war, Wales remains a nation of sanctuary. My heart goes out to those who have found refuge with us who have no victory to celebrate, whose homes remain in conflict zones. Today, we remember the sacrifice of past generations. We give thanks that a terrible period of war ended. We cherish the freedoms that were won, and we commit ourselves to building peace wherever we can, as the proud and compassionate nation that we are. Diolch.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement today. There are many things that divide us in this Chamber, but this is an issue on which we absolutely agree. We agree on those fundamental values that people fought in Europe for all those years ago: beliefs in freedom, in democracy, and in human rights. These are the values that we share in common across this Chamber. They're the ones that got people together and made them stand up against the evils of fascism 80 years ago that secured that victory over those fascist regimes of the Nazis and their allies. These were the values that gave young men the courage to step out of those landing boats into machine gun fire on those beaches of Normandy in May 1944, which was, of course, the springboard across the whole of Europe, as troops from the allies that we had made progress right across Europe to eventually deliver the victory that we mark this week.

Of course, many of those individuals, as you quite rightly said, paid the ultimate sacrifice. They didn't come home, many thousands of them from Wales. Many others, of course, sacrificed a huge amount but were left with their lives, and lived—and still live, unfortunately—with their scars. And, of course, it wasn't just those who fought on the front lines, as you quite rightly said. There were many at home, on the home front, as it were, who were fighting and playing their part in the war effort to secure that crucial victory. They were making the ammunition, making the weapons, ensuring the supplies of food and everything else that people needed on those front lines, and we owe them too a huge debt of gratitude.

We will of course mark VJ Day in due course, quite rightly so, because that was the real end of the second world war, when the Imperial Japanese Army finally surrendered. But we mustn't take away the fact that it is a victory that we mark this week. As difficult a word that that might be, we should celebrate it, and we should make sure that it is properly marked in our nation. I'm pleased to note that there are events that are taking place, not just on a national level, in Llandaff cathedral—and I'm pleased to see the Welsh Government has organised that event—but also, of course, in our communities, the length and breadth of the country. I'm looking forward to participating in events in my constituency, as many Members here will be doing over the course of the next week.

I took the opportunity to visit veterans and meet with them at the Swansea veterans hub last week, and it was a very powerful reminder while I was there that, while the second world war has passed into history, some of those veterans are still with us, as are the veterans of other conflicts since, who have also fought for our nation. They've put their lives on the line.

I met with Wayne Jenkins, the managing director, and a 93-year-old veteran, Charles Allen, who didn't serve in the second world war, but he did serve in the Korean war, in the navy. These are some of the conflicts that sometimes we tend to forget. We don't remember them sufficiently well—conflicts such as Iraq, Afghanistan, the Falklands, Northern Ireland. They're still things that we have individuals in our country who are paying a very high price for, families that have lost people in those conflicts and indeed individuals and veterans who have returned from those conflicts and still face the consequences on a daily basis.

That's why it's very important that we all work together in this Chamber to support our veterans in Wales and our wider armed forces community. I've been proud to put my shoulder to the wheel along with other Members of this Chamber over the years to try to do just that, because I want Wales to be the most veteran-friendly nation not just in the United Kingdom, but in the world, and I believe that we can really achieve that aim.

One of the things that has been flagged up with me in recent years and months is the fact that we still need to support our veterans with mental health challenges and with PTSD. We celebrated the fifteenth anniversary of the fantastic Veterans' NHS Wales service just last week in the Pierhead building, and it was great to see the Minister for mental health taking part in that event, but that is a service that, as fantastic as it is, still requires more investment. It would be wonderful this week, First Minister, if you were able to announce some additional investment to make sure that that service can invest in the peer mentors that it needs going forward.

And just one final ask, if I may. Can I request that the Welsh Government petitions the UK Government so that our Welsh veterans commissioner can become a permanent post? That is a post that at the moment is due to expire at the end of this calendar year. I don't know about you, but I feel very passionately that that needs to become a permanent post so that veterans here can continue to benefit from someone who stands up for them and speaks up for them in an impartial, non-political way. Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Darren. Thanks for those words on behalf of the Conservative Party. I want to thank you for your work on supporting the armed services in Wales and particularly your work supporting veterans. You're quite right, mental health issues and ensuring that they get the support that they need is important. I know that the Minister responsible is very aware of the situation. It was good that you were able to go to that event. I'll look into the Welsh veterans commissioner and see if there is anything we can do in that space.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

As we mark the eightieth anniversary of VE Day, we remember the courage and sacrifice of the generation that defeated fascism and secured peace in Europe. The bravery of our armed forces, alongside the resilience of those on the home front, remind us of the values we must continue to uphold: freedom, democracy and solidarity.

VE Day is not just a commemoration of the past; it's a reminder that the victory over fascism represents a collective triumph of humanity's resolve to live in a world of peace and mutual respect. This day should unite us all in our commitments to building a safer, fairer world for future generations, as will the VJ Day commemorations later this year.

We also honour the service and sacrifice of those from across Wales who have served in the armed forces. Their dedication and commitment, whether on the front lines or in support roles, ensures that we remain protected and secure. I'd also like to acknowledge the tireless efforts of organisations, volunteers and individuals across Wales who support veterans. These groups provide crucial services and a sense of community to those who have served, ensuring they're not forgotten after their time in the forces. But there's still more to be done, and we must remember that the sacrifices made by people from every corner of Wales aren't just part of history; it's vital that we continue to support them when they return home.

Too many veterans face financial hardship, mental health struggles and homelessness. We need to ensure that veterans have access to essential services like housing, employment support and healthcare, including mental health services, tailored to the unique challenges they face. I and my colleagues will continue to call for ensuring that those who have given so much for peace are not left to struggle afterwards.

Perhaps the First Minister could tell us, for example, what percentage of GP practices now have been accredited under the 'veteran friendly' GP accreditation scheme. Wales had been falling behind, and we can't afford to. I'd also be grateful if the First Minister could provide an update on how the Welsh Government is monitoring compliance with the military covenant and ensuring good practice across all health boards, including in dental care.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

As we commemorate VE Day and concentrate on the battle against fascism, we can't ignore the frightening increase in extreme and fascist right-wing ideologies globally today, including here in Wales and in the UK. These dangerous ideologies are a threat to the values of democracy, equality and freedom that were defended by the bravery of those who fought in the second world war. It is crucial that we all unite and continue to be united against the development of hatred and extremism. We must stand firm against these forces, just as our forebears did in the battle against fascism, and ensure that hatred never takes root in our society.

Finally, as we consider the lessons of VE Day, we must also remember that the horrors of war are far from being over. Conflict and war continue to cause scars and cost lives across the globe, and it's crucial that we do everything within our powers to find peaceful solutions. Loss of life in war is a tragedy, and we must cease repeating that tragedy. The foundation of society is to be committed to peace and to be willing to condemn military action, particularly those that contravene international law. On the continent of Africa, in Ukraine, and, as we've already heard this afternoon, in Gaza, we continue to see the destruction that war causes for the lives of innocent people, and we still see international law broken. Our duty for those who gave everything during the second world war is to ensure that we never repeat those horrors and that we work to find peaceful solutions to conflict on all occasions.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Rhun, and thank you for your words on behalf of Plaid Cymru. I think it's important that we all work towards peace and that we support our veterans.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'll get you the information in relation to GP practices and the military covenant. We can get that information for you.

I'm also concerned about the rise in right-wing ideologies. I think we can tolerate a lot of things, apart from intolerance, and that is something that we need to ensure that we guard against. I absolutely agree that it is imperative that we keep on working towards peace.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I very much welcome the statement by the First Minister. I'm also really pleased to see the Senedd speaking as one on this issue. I think that that shows the Senedd at its best. Like most Senedd Members, I'll be attending VE Day celebrations this week. As we say every November regarding those who made the ultimate sacrifice to help defeat fascism, we will remember them. I'm also aware of the small number of people who wish we had lost the second world war.

I want to raise awareness of the service provided by Commonwealth forces from Africa, the Caribbean and the vast Indian army, which included personnel from modern-day Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh. Will the First Minister join me in thanking those people from the Commonwealth who also fought to defeat fascism on our behalf?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you for drawing our attention to the fact that there were people way beyond these shores who fought for us to make sure that we preserved our freedom here. And, of course, I will join with you in thanking those from Commonwealth countries for their support.

I'm glad that you'll be participating in VE Day celebrations. I was very privileged yesterday to attend an event in the Crundale community centre in Pembrokeshire. There was lots of memorabilia there. It was very interesting to see how they had managed to contact the families of airmen who'd crashed locally. They managed to track these people down, and their families came back to visit last year. And it's because of the interest that people have locally in that that they were able, once again, to bring these allies together to commemorate a difficult day for some of those families, but the next generation were keen to mark what was a difficult accident for their families.

I then also attended an event in Pembroke Dock, which was great fun, with bouncy castles, discos, and young people engaging in what this was all about. And I think that is why this is so important. This is a generation that has not experienced directly the impact of war, and so it is so important for us to pass those stories on to make sure that they understand that you cannot take peace for granted, and that we're able to live today because of the sacrifice of people yesterday.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement. Today we pause as one, as a nation, to reflect on two of the most defining moments in our shared history: Victory in Europe Day and Victory over Japan Day—days that mark the end of the most destructive conflict the world has ever known, and days where courage, sacrifice and unity triumphed over tyranny.

Wales plays an extraordinary role in that victory. On average, 300,000 soldiers fought across every theatre of war. From the beaches of Normandy to the skies of Europe, and the effort at home, Welsh men and women served with distinction, with many paying the ultimate price. Their bravery shaped the freedoms that we cherish today. But the war wasn't just fought on the battlefield, it was fought in our towns, in our villages, in our communities and on our farms. One powerful image that stays with me is the thousands of children who were evacuated to Wales. Welsh families opened their homes and their hearts. These young evacuees found refuse in our hills and our valleys, and many forged bonds that lasted long after the war ended. It was a true act of compassion and solidarity, showing the best of Welsh spirit.

Near my home in Monmouthshire, the war left its mark too. It reminded me of a story from the village of Trellech, where local farmers, despite the long days working on the land to feed the nation, would then patrol the countryside as part of the Home Guard by night, armed with determination and sometimes little more than broomsticks at first, standing ready to defend our country and our people. That quiet bravery, the everyday heroism, is something that we must never forget.

And for me, it's not just a distant memory of history, it's personal—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to ask a question now, please.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

It affected people in my family that I knew who fought in the war as a general, as a Wren and as a major, and also the other side of my family who were farmers throughout that conflict. Would the First Minister agree with me that there's still a long way to go in terms of what we need to do to honour our veterans—it's already been touched on today—and will she join me in looking forward to the wonderful celebrations that we have coming the rest of this week? I've already been joined in celebrations in Llangybi and in Goytre on my patch in Monmouthshire and in my region, and I look forward to many more, and I'm sure we all do. But we must ensure that we—. I had my six-year-old with me during that celebration, and as you've just said, First Minister, it's so important—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to conclude, please.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

—isn't it, that we do all we can to ensure that the next generation really understand the sacrifices that were made. We will never forget them.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Laura. You're quite right, we need to honour our veterans. I would encourage people here to join in the celebrations. It was a huge privilege for me to meet a gentleman yesterday who proudly showed me a photo of his mum who was a poster girl for the land army. But he was explaining to me that that was just cover, because, actually, her job was in intelligence. That famous, iconic photo of that land army girl is not really a land army girl. There you go, you heard it here first. There are people who are absolutely fascinated with this world, and thank goodness for them, because they bring us a richness, in terms of dipping into history, that we can all connect to.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

VE Day allows us to celebrate the resilience and togetherness of the British people who lived through years of wartime constraints and dangers, but it also provides the opportunity to reflect, and this eightieth anniversary I think is particularly poignant, as it will be one of the last major public moments of recognition for the diminishing number of veterans from world war two. As direct links to the past fade, it's more important than ever that we do remember those who defended our democracy and made the ultimate sacrifice to protect our way of life, and never returned home to their families.

Wrexham is a city with a strong military tradition and a proud association with the Royal Welch Fusiliers, and that dates back over 300 years. It will play its part on Thursday with a special service taking place at St Giles parish church, before the RWF volunteer corps of drums will lead a parade to the cenotaph at Bodhyfryd, where I'll be very proud to lay a wreath. These commemorative occasions are always very well attended, and I'm sure the people of Wrexham will be out in force on Thursday to pay their respects.

So, thank you very much for your important statement today, First Minister. It is an opportunity for you to reiterate Wales's commitment to building peace, as you did, as part of our global responsibility, but it's also the opportunity for you to reiterate Welsh Government's support for all of our veterans, to whom we owe so very much.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Lesley, and thanks to you for also remembering those who gave their lives. I know that many people in Wrexham will take that opportunity up on this important occasion, to mark an important time in the history of our nation.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, First Minister, for your very moving and personal statement. Like you, I remember stories from my father and his sisters about the bombing in Cardiff and how they lost a school friend in the bombing in Roath, and the traces of those bombs are still to be seen in Canton, Grangetown, Roath and Cathays.

I remember going to Belgium around a quarter of a century ago, and I was fed up of having to explain to people all the time where Wales was. That's changed by now, of course, but I had to say at that time where Wales was, until I met an older woman who knew exactly where Wales was, because it was soldiers from Wales who liberated her village from Nazi oppression.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

It's so easy to forget, Prif Weinidog, and I was disheartened to have correspondence from constituents recently about their council trying to prohibit and then to charge for VE street parties. Luckily, there was a u-turn for that, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I've been fortunate to know many veterans, from wise family members to my office manager now, Nicky Ryan—someone who's still contributing and still serving her community. Through her support, I've raised on many occasions the plight of veterans. I met one the other day who'd been living under a bridge in Merthyr. I've seen too many in courtrooms and in prisons.

I appreciate that currently it's not within your power to stop wars, Prif Weinidog, but it is in your gift to ensure that Welsh men and women who do sign up to the British armed forces are looked after on their return. The veterans' commissioner said in his annual report that Wales remains a fairly good place to be a veteran. But as Darren Millar said—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to ask the question, Rhys.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

—how can we make Wales the best place to be a veteran? Diolch yn fawr.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. It is important that people have the opportunity to celebrate, and it is important also that we treat our veteran heroes with respect, and that's why we have the covenant. Yes, he says we're not bad, but obviously we can always strive to do better.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Like others, I will be attending events in my constituency in Blaenau Gwent on Thursday, to remember the generation of people who sacrificed so much so that we can meet here in peace and security and democracy today. I remember veterans standing around the cenotaph in Tredegar when I was a child. The veterans then were in their 40s and 50s. I don't expect to see any veterans joining us on Thursday.

But it's important, I think, that we consider—. The statement you made spoke about the spirit of togetherness, and I think it's an important part of who we are to remember not simply the events of 1945, but also the spirit of 1945. The generation that defeated fascism was also the same generation that laid the basis for peace in Europe. Before the year was out, the United Nations had been founded in San Francisco. The following year, Churchill's Zurich speech calling for a united states of Europe had led to the creation of the Council of Europe in 1946. Within a few years, the European convention on human rights was being drafted and within the decade, the Schuman declaration was laying the foundations for the European Union. Those people who'd experienced the reality of war had no truck with those who wanted to create new divisions and deepen and create new borders. Is it important, do you believe, First Minister, that we today do not simply recreate the fashions of 1945 but we remember the spirit of 1945, and we pledge again that we will fight racism, we will fight fascism, and we will never seek to create new borders and new divisions?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. You're absolutely right, that spirit of togetherness is exactly what we need to be building in our communities today. It's absolutely right that we fight racism and anything that tries to deliberately divide our communities. A hundred years ago, the women of Wales developed a peace petition. Hundreds of thousands of them signed the petition asking for peace after the first world war, and I just think that that sums up the kind of spirit that you saw in the nation. And we think that what was truly remarkable is that 100 years ago, is that it was the women who insisted, who said, 'We cannot go through that again. We cannot allow our sons to go off and be killed in their thousands in the way that they did.' And so it is important that we remember the commitment to peace that existed 100 years ago, that existed after the second world war, and it is absolutely imperative that we continue that tradition here in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to remember here a remarkable woman called Patti Flynn, who fought for 26 years to have a monument erected in Cardiff to honour those people from the Caribbean, those minority ethnic men and women, who fought for us in the first and also the second world war. She was accompanied by Uzo Iwobi and the Race Council Cymru, and also Jane Hutt, the Deputy Minister, and Councillor Susan Elsmore from Cardiff Council to ensure those people and their sacrifices weren't forgotten. In 2019—and that's only six years ago—they succeeded in getting that memorial put in Cardiff. So, what I'm really asking of you today, First Minister, is to remember those people, those women who I have mentioned, particularly driven by Patti Flynn's desire that those people wouldn't be forgotten, to acknowledge their fight, their campaign, so that that will be forever remembered in this city.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Joyce, and thanks for your interest in championing, with Patti Flynn, the contributions that were made by those people from ethnic minority communities and people from across the globe to secure our freedom, and it's great to see that that plaque's there, and that they will never be forgotten. Can I just end by saying that I think this has been a really good-natured debate, and I think it's really important that there are times when togetherness is important? And today is one of those occasions when we come together and understand that we can achieve more together than we can divided. I'd like to thank everybody for their contributions today.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the First Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing: The Mental Health and Wellbeing Strategy

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is the statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: the mental health and mental well-being strategy. And I call on the Minister, Sarah Murphy.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am very proud today to let Members know that we have published our ambitious 10-year mental health and well-being strategy, which will drive further improvements for people across Wales and, importantly, move us towards the provision of same-day, open-access services. This will mean easy-to-access support will increasingly be available for people when they need it, where they need it.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

The strategy is the culmination of more than 18 months of hard work. It draws on the lived experience of people across Wales and accompanies the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy, which we published at the start of last month. Taken together, these two strategies, and their delivery plans, mark a further step change in our approach to mental health service delivery and our determination to support everyone struggling with mental health problems.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to the development of this ambitious strategy, especially all those who have been willing to share their personal experiences to really help shape our approach. Not only is the strategy informed by such open engagement, it places co-production at the heart of how we want to work over the next 10 years. It is vital that the development of policy and services continues to be informed by those with lived experience.

Over the course of the last decade, we have made significant progress to support and improve mental health services and support, to break down the barriers that too often prevent people from seeking help, and to embed cross-Government and multi-agency working to improve mental health and well-being. We have expanded services and support, and our unique Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 has provided a focus for services to work in partnership to meet individual needs and provide better support.

But, while we have made good progress, the impact of the pandemic and the subsequent cost-of-living crisis have had a lasting impact on our mental health and on those much wider issues that can lead to poor mental health—personal finances, employment, housing, education and bereavement. That’s why the new strategy places a continued and increased focus to work across Government to tackle the building blocks of mental health. It moves us from the previous health-led approach to a health and social care approach, and I am establishing joint ministerial oversight arrangements with the Minister for Children and Social Care to reflect this.

The strategy is structured into four key areas, which set out our vision for mental health and well-being in Wales. The first is to ensure the building blocks are in place to support good mental health. This is very much about those wider determinants of mental health and ensuring that there's that focus across the Welsh Government and other public bodies for the impact on mental health and well-being to be considered in policy and all programme development.

Next, the strategy focuses on the public health approach to mental health, so people have the knowledge, opportunity and confidence to protect and improve their own mental health and well-being. We also want to improve the evidence base and create the environment for good mental health, so we can all take steps to improve and protect our own mental health and well-being.

The third area responds to the fact that mental health needs are changing. Mental health services were historically developed around mental illness and specific mental conditions. While some specialist care is still needed, the majority of people do not need specialist mental health services. Our aim is for services to be better connected to the right type of support people need to tackle the root cause of their mental distress and ill health, so they can access the right support at the right time, with clear escalation to more specialist services if they are needed.

And then the final part of the strategy aims to achieve seamless mental health services that are truly person-centred, needs-led and ensure people are guided to the right support at the time of asking, and without delay. We are already on the way to achieving this. The national strategic programme for mental health is leading work with mental health services to make this a reality.

In April, the NHS executive led a mental health leadership event as a catalyst to transform services. It included a month-long knowledge exchange, and there was a visible appetite to connect, collaborate and develop new ideas to improve outcomes for people. Key to this transformation is the move to open-access mental health services. The roll out of the '111 press 2' service marked a significant step towards open-access mental health services, but we need to go further to achieve that same-day access without referral. This will be based on a stepped care model, so providing appropriate support at each level, and only referring to more intensive support if needed. To do this, we will explore early adopters of this model, and evaluate it before making plans for a wider roll-out across Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a broad and ambitious strategy, which I am determined will make a real difference to mental health care and support in Wales. It is rooted in people’s lived experience, and will respond to people’s experiences. I am excited about the opportunities in the strategy, and I look forward to working with you and partners in Wales to achieve its ambition. Diolch.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'd like to thank the Minister for a advance copy of the statement today, and I do acknowledge the publication of the Welsh Government's mental health and well-being strategy for 2025-35, and all the work I know that has gone into it over time from previous Ministers in this portfolio, and it is positive. But, while the strategy does outline a broad positive vision, and I welcome that, it is vital that we do move past the headline ambitions and focus on how this will be delivered in practice. I think that's really important because, for too many people across Wales, access to timely mental health support, as I spoke about earlier, is a struggle. That's why I brought forward my own Mental Health Standards of Care (Wales) Bill, to embed that accountability and improve access and ensure consistency right the way across the service across Wales. That Bill came from extensive engagement with front-line professionals, service users and families who've all had to navigate this framework and this system, and I think it is nice to see some of that coming forward within the strategy as well of how we are actually going to improve some of these things.

Minister, I am interested in the commitment you made to same-day, open-access mental health services. It does sound promising, but the strategy doesn't give the detail around those. When will this be available, and in what areas is it going to be available? I would also like to know—. Wales doesn't just have urban areas, it has the rural areas, and I want to know if this service is going to be equally applied to our rural areas as well, not just the urban centres. And how will you ensure that people can rely on this support all the time—not just in theory, but actually there all the time, so they get it?

You also mentioned about early adopters and pilot schemes. We have seen far too often, haven't we—and you knew this from when you were on the backbenches as well—that these can lead to postcode lotteries and some people missing out. People's access to mental health support shouldn't depend on where their postcode is. It should be about what they can get and how they can get it, and not how far they live from a pilot area. So, I would just like to know, when you have these pilots in place, how are they going to be expanded to make sure that no-one misses out on these pilot schemes.

I also note, as you mentioned towards the end of your statement, the strategy shift from a health-led to a social care model. While I agree with that in principle, I do question the capacity of local services to meet this challenge. We all hear across this Chamber about the challenges within social services—it's already under huge pressure. Integration between these two systems simply just cannot mean passing more responsibility over to overstretched local authorities without the necessary investment. So, I'd be interested to know how that investment is going to look and how that integration is going to work in practice, because I think saying it's one thing but, actually, delivery is another.

One thing I talk a lot about in this Chamber is accountability. The strategy talks about co-production and lived experience—very important elements; I'm keen on that myself. But there is little clarity on who will actually be held accountable when things do go wrong. If we understand it, 'Oh, everything is going to work out perfectly'—. There are going to be times when it does fail. So, we'd like to know who is going to be held accountable, because we need to see published targets, annual reporting, and mechanisms as well for this Senedd to be able to scrutinise progress properly. It is lovely having internal reviews within Welsh Government and hopeful language coming out in statements, but it is actually the meat of this Senedd getting underneath it, scrutinising it and making sure it is working.

The strategy is very good—I've said I welcome it—but no strategy can work without an appropriate workforce, and it cannot be delivered without them. Mental health professionals, as you know, are telling us across Wales that they're understaffed, under-resourced, and recruitment is a real issue. So, I'd like to know what is being done to retain and build a stronger workforce so we can meet these expanded goals.

Finally, Minister, an issue I'd like to raise with you is the issue about peer mentors for our veterans across our health boards. They do great work in supporting our veterans, the ones that we currently have—they're not in every health board, mind—supporting teams to actually understand the issues that veterans face with regard to their mental health; they do have individual challenges from the experiences they have seen, in probably the most challenging parts of the world, keeping us safe. For the investment in every single health board, that would cost £450,000. It's actually a very small amount of money for the actual great work that they do in supporting veterans' mental health, and I think it would be lovely to actually hear, on this anniversary date of VE Day, whether the Welsh Government will commit to putting that £450,000 in place to support our veterans community across Wales.

In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to be clear that we all want to see improvements to mental health services and well-being across Wales. I get encouraged when I see stats saying there's improvement. I'm not one of those politicians who doesn't want to see things improved; I really, really do, because that's what we're actually here to do: represent our constituents and make sure things get better.

But we need to have more than a vision; we need to have deliverable, measurable change and proper scrutiny. I hope the Government will work closely with Members in this Chamber, including those of us who have brought forward mental health legislation in the past, to ensure that this strategy doesn't just deliver, but it actually creates the best mental health and support systems that we can have, anywhere in Europe. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, James Evans. I always acknowledge, honestly, the tremendous amount of work that you've done in this area, and always welcome your contributions and questions and, please, ongoing work around all of this, especially in the areas that you represent as well.

So, I just want to absolutely reassure you that we have the 10-year strategy, the mental health and well-being strategy, but we also have now a very targeted, specific three-year initial delivery strategy. I think it's very comprehensive, and aligns very much with the actions, who is accountable for it, and also the timeframes for that delivery for those first three years, so we can really get this going.

So, just to say, as you will be able to see, in the initial, the O.1., the very first action point that we have, straight away now we're going to be establishing a joint ministerial advisory board, with terms of reference that set out the relationships with other structures and organisations, and that clear reporting framework. I'll be doing that alongside my colleague, the Minister for Children and Social Care. So, that's within six months.

We're also then going to ensure that we publish a closure report, outlining the achievements against the 'Together for mental health' report, to set that baseline for the new strategy. So, we're not completely abandoning the work that came before. It's always important that we learn those lessons, and we build upon it—so much good work in that. We will then be publishing an outcomes framework and theory of change that will support the commission of an independent evaluation and strategy. We're not marking our own homework on this; this will be an independent evaluation. And then we will also be publishing annual updates against the actions in the plan as part of this process. We will look to review progress, and we'll detail any additional activity that we think is necessary to deliver against these priority areas.

So, I want to absolutely assure you that we're taking this very seriously. I would not be prepared to make this commitment to the people of Wales unless I was confident that we had the accountability and governance structures in place to absolutely ensure that we deliver this. I will not say that we will deliver it overnight. That is not what we can do here. What we can do, though, is we can look at what we already have and we can really now start to refresh and start to manoeuvre and move it into a much more stepped care model that is holistic and that is going to help people exactly when they need it.

So, many of you will have groups—I know I do in my own community—who have said to me, 'Gosh, you know, the last strategy over the 10 years, we've done so much to reduce stigma.' And that has largely been because of people sharing their lived experience. Through doing that now, we've said to people, 'Right, go and speak to somebody, ask for help, reach out', and they've said to us, 'When we did, it wasn't there.' And so I think that that's the other thing, that a lot of people will go into primary care, and then they'll have a chat with somebody, and sometimes they'll be put on a waiting list for some counselling sessions in maybe three months or maybe six months. This is sometimes what is happening. What we know is that, often, people only then go to that first session for the counselling. Now, that could be because it wasn't there when they needed it, because you need it when you need it. You need that initial conversation with somebody so that they can do an assessment. And that's what the stepped care model is. It's about being able to do that assessment, that initial intervention, and ensuring then that you go to the right service. It's about prevention. We don't want people escalating. We want to get them the help and support exactly when they need it.

I also wanted to say that there has been a huge amount of enthusiasm about this. It has taken 18 months, but because of that—. Co-production isn't fast—I'm looking at my predecessor, Lynne Neagle, here—co-production isn't fast, I'm carrying on the work that you started 18 months ago, but it's so much better, because it's really meaningful, and it will really reach the people we need to reach, and you really bring everybody with you. So, what I would ask is that, as we go forward now, that co-production has to continue. It's not quick, but it's going to be so much better when we embed it.

I'll weave in here as well what you said about the workforce. Alongside this, we have the strategic mental health workforce plan. But, as I mentioned, the NHS executive, who will be leading on ensuring that this is delivered now, did a fantastic session with the mental health workforce recently. This is the kind of care that they want to be delivering. There was so much optimism about it, because this is exactly what they want to be able to do as well. So, that's going to go such a long way in getting this implemented.

No postcode lottery. This is why we have made the ambitious commitment to make us the first country in the world—I'm 99 per cent sure, I've thoroughly researched this—to do this on an all-nation basis, because we do have models of this already happening. I went to Merthyr Tydfil College recently, with my colleague the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and they're doing it there. You go in, there's a beautiful big sign for 'well-being', a whole centre. You can pop in there, you can get some resources, you can have a chat with people, you can feel connected and better. If you need some help, they have a commitment where they will get you somebody to have a chat with you and the most is three days. And not a single young person that I spoke to there had any qualms or any stigma or any shame about saying, 'My mental health isn't great at the moment, I need a bit of support.' That's what I want on an all-nation basis. So, the purpose of this is that there is no more postcode lottery.

And then, I also wanted to say that this is really, like I said—you mentioned local authorities there—this is local authorities, this is regional partnership boards, this is the voluntary sector, this is the third sector, this is so many organisations coming together and always keeping that lived experience coming through. So, I do feel the accountability and governance is very much there. It's going to be very much evidence led, building on the work that's gone before by the now Cabinet Secretary for Education, and we're really going to monitor this. And please, hold us to account over it, because I'm absolutely determined that we're going to be the first nation in the world that really does this. [Interruption.]

And the veterans, sorry. Yes, so the peer support for veterans, I'm really, really passionate about this. I went to the event that was hosted by Darren Millar in the Pierhead last week. I got to hear from many of the peer mentors across the health boards. Just having that kind of support, where you speak in the same way and you really kind of—. And also there's an unspoken-ness about it, the support that you get. Look, I want it across every health board, but it is on the health board to make the assessment of the needs of their communities. So, we already have health boards who do do this; I want the other health boards to do it. I won't commit to the additional funding for that until I can have a clear assessment of why those health boards are not doing it, because if there are needs of veterans in their health board locality then they should be providing that support. And also, what I would say is that Laura Anne Jones has been very good in raising awareness at the Female Veterans Alliance, and that was money that was given by Welsh Government to those pilots. And I'm actually going out to west Wales to meet with, we think, the first and only female veteran peer support mentor, and I would also like to see that grow as well. Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I don't know whether it's a coincidence that we're talking about a mental health strategy following a statement on VE Day, but I know that my grandfather, Ellis Richards, he went out to fight in the second world war in Ouistreham and in Europe, and the man who came back was very different to the boy who went out. It would have been excellent to have had such a service available then.

However, first of all, I'd like to thank the Minister for introducing this strategy. It is, unfortunately, often the case in politics that we see opposition parties being critical because of political expediency, accusing the Government of not being ambitious enough and so on, but that will not be true in this instance. From the breadth of the vision to the comprehensive engagement with the sector, this strategy treats mental health with the greatest seriousness it so deserves. It adopts a decidedly different tone to the careless ignorance demonstrated by some Westminster politicians recently, and I'm very grateful for that. So, what we have here is a firm foundation to build on for the next decade. And I very much hope that whatever Government emerges from the next election commits to the direction set out here. But, of course, ambition is one thing. Now the hard work begins of trying to turn that ambition into a reality, because we know that mental health care in this country continues to fall a good way short of where it needs to be.

I welcome very much the focus on tackling long-standing issues in the provision of services during the transition period from childhood to adulthood. The Minister will remember that I have previously raised the issue of children and young people who face what we refer to as a 'cliff edge' when they turn 17. So, I am very pleased to see a specific recognition in the strategy that this transition process will focus on the individual, rather than being set by arbitrary age criteria. I wonder, therefore, whether the Minister could give us a few more details on the nature of this change in practical terms and what it means for developing the current workforce’s skill set, bearing in mind this shift.

Further, on the shift towards a more patient-centred model, which I fully endorse, what lessons will the Government be taking and learning from previous experiences? I'm thinking in particular of the missed opportunities highlighted by the committee in its recent report on chronic conditions, for example.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

The emphasis on governance reforms is music to my ears, and the Minister will be aware that I have been advocating for such reforms more broadly within the health and social care system for some time. So, it's great to see the Government cottoning on to this at last. Now, regional partnership boards have a key role to play in this respect, especially given their responsibilities in relation to the NYTH/NEST model. So, could I ask for the Minister's view of their practical effectiveness and whether you're considering any changes in how their performance is monitored? Do you also agree with me that data reporting practices on the part of health boards should be reviewed and standardised across Wales as a matter of priority?

The strategy rightly stresses the need to promote innovation in the sector. Now, the Welsh Government used to have designated national funding for innovation in mental health, which has since been subsumed within the broader mental health budget. Given that Wales has historically struggled with implementing examples of best practice on a wider scale, does the Minister think that there is a case for reinstating this specific funding stream?

Finally, whatever the promise of this strategy, the truth is that the policies of the UK Government will make delivering on its objectives so much harder to achieve—from the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance to the cruel welfare cuts that will knowingly push more of our population into the throes of poverty and have a devastating impact on the mental health and well-being of our nation. Meanwhile, recent uplifts in employer national insurance contributions and the particular failure to reimburse Wales properly will undermine the very organisations in the third sector that are rightly identified in the strategy as key delivery partners in work on social prescribing and community engagement. Could I therefore ask whether the Minister has sought a specific mental health impact assessment of the proposed changes to welfare from the UK Government, and whether the Welsh Government has had to reassess any of the milestones and targets in the delivery plan as a consequence of Westminster's recent actions? Diolch.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, and I really appreciate your opening remarks, Mabon ap Gwynfor. Like I said, this is a strategy, to be honest, that I get to stand here and announce today, but it really has been done by so many people. The co-production is truly incredible. So, this is really testament to the work that they have done. I also want to echo what you've said, that we are taking this very seriously. Mental health and well-being is so serious and it's so intertwined with our identity. We always have so much in Wales, we've really embedded that being trauma-informed, being compassionate. We know the links between physical health and mental health. We've got the 'A Healthier Wales' strategy, which really embodies all of that. So, we are taking it, and that's why we are going to have that firm foundation, as you said, in place, so that this will be able to be delivered, come what may. And that is so important.

I'm really glad that you talked about the transition between children and adults. I was on the Health and Social Care Committee when we heard evidence. At the time, Mind Cymru had brought together what I thought was a fantastic group of young people who had gone through that experience and, in the 'Sort the Switch' report that they did, really explained what that process can be like. So, Mind Cymru obviously played a big role in helping us to co-produce this and ensure that those voices are there. And I really, really hope that having this person-centred shift now will make a real difference. And then we've also got the framework, of course, for children, and I work closely with my colleague the Minister for Children and Social Care as well, so that we can ensure that, even though it's all ages, that it's actually more about changing the way that we deliver the services. So, I think that that will be a key element that we'll be watching for and that we'll be ensuring that we get right.

I'd also like to say, though, look, with CAMHS and the assessments, we've been doing very well and we usually exceed that 80 per cent target of young people being seen within those 28 days. So, I will echo what the First Minister said earlier on: think about what we've achieved, those assessments being done in under 28 days. Gosh, that would have made such a huge difference to so many people back in the day. To have that now, and then to be moving even further forward with it, I think, is tremendous.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

When it comes to the chronic conditions, I've read the Health and Social Care Committee's report. Again, I think that of course it impacts your mental health, and it does come back to the ethos of this strategy, which is of being person centred, not feeling dismissed, having a conversation with somebody when you need to, having that assessment, having that monitoring, and getting people to a place where they're feeling okay and they're feeling supported, both physically and mentally, and then monitoring that maintenance as well, with people just not feeling as if they're being dismissed. So, of course, that will be, as well, something that we work really closely on for people with chronic conditions. Of course, I'm also the Minister for women's health and endometriosis is an area where I often hear women tell me just how much of an impact it has on their mental health and well-being, and not just theirs, but of everybody around them. So, being able to understand that, and we will be bringing that through as well in the women's health plan.

I have to say, talking about some productivity, I think the recent ministerial advisory group report, the things that I took away from it were that we need to have a focus on evidence-based, evidence-led services, a transparency of data and improving in public, and also the financial flow goes with the performance and priorities. So, I think that that's very much in line with what we're trying to do with this mental health strategy, and I think that that's what the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will also be achieving through those other parts of the NHS.

You mentioned the RPBs, I think they do absolutely tremendous work. Every one is slightly different as well, which is the purpose. I go out and meet many of the RPBs, and I go out and meet many of the projects that they fund in lots of different areas, and I like it because they really understand their communities, and they really understand what is needed and what will work. We will continue to work very closely with RPBs, and we regularly do and regularly meet with them.

NYTH/NEST, I think, is a fantastic framework. It was always going to take some time to bed in. Again, we're seeing pockets where it's absolutely being embraced and being used so well. There was, actually, a project that I went to in Torfaen, where young people have got that multi-agency support around them, and everyone's like, 'Am I the best person to help in this? Am I the best person?' You can see a workforce, being able to work in that framework, that actually absolutely love and thrive, and I think that makes such a difference to outcomes. We're still embedding it, I would say. We recently released the annual report for it. I think there's so much enthusiasm for it, though, and I think we will get to a place where we'll be able to give more data on outcomes, but, again, it takes a little bit of time for it to bed in and for us to be able to do that and do that assessment of what is needed.

You also talked about data and digital and the funding for that. At the moment, myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care are looking at the innovation fund that was going to local authorities and RPBs, and this was in the health sector. We're looking at now what was working well and doing a bit of an evaluation. What do we think we should scale up? So, there is still, just to say, that innovation within this space. However, when it comes to whether or not we would have a specific line in the budget for mental health, I would say 'no', because, again, it's the Minister for digital health and social care. We need all of this to come together now. It's been too fragmented as it is. We really need to get to that place of digital first, and that's across absolutely everything. I would point to, as well, the electronic mental health record, which is being led on by Betsi Cadwaladr, along with Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board, as a really good indication of this, because this was everybody sitting down and going, 'What do we actually need? Let's get it done. Let's make sure the funding is there, and then we'll get it rolled out.' I wouldn't separate them again. The things that we need to focus on now in digital are the national architecture, the electronic health record, as you know, and the national data resource, and that will actually benefit every part of the NHS. So, we just need to be collective on that.

And then, yes, when it comes to the assessments, a lot of this is still in the White Paper stage, so I haven't requested an impact assessment specifically on the mental health. What I would say, though, is that I read it very thoroughly. It needs more evidence, and it needs more Welsh evidence. On a four-nations basis, we talk to other mental health Ministers, and we’re really proud of this strategy and trying to say that we think this is a really good model. I think we just need more evidence; there’s not enough in there, in my opinion. So, that’s what I would be calling for when we get to the next stage. Diolch.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, you rightly stressed the links between physical health and mental health. Last year, I was pleased to host, here at the Senedd, Welsh Athletics and Mind Cymru for the launch of their mental health champion scheme. The aim is for every affiliated running club across Wales to have at least one individual who is trained to promote the positive impact that running can have on mental health, to spot the signs that someone in their club or group might be struggling with their mental health and support them, and to signpost people to further assistance.

In Newport, clubs such as Lliswerry Runners, RUNNewport and Caerleon Running Club have signed up to the scheme, which, overall, already has 67 volunteers, 33 of whom have completed their training. Throughout the programme, individuals receive training from Mind themselves and e-learning from the Chartered Institute for the Management of Sport and Physical Activity. It’s now going into its second year. Minister, I’m sure you will join me in congratulating Mind Cymru and Welsh Athletics on the scheme and perhaps consider visiting a local running club to learn more about the scheme and its benefits, and also to urge sports governing bodies in Wales to be part of this scheme, and offer them Welsh Government support to facilitate and enable that.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, John Griffiths. It’s really incredible to hear that. To have so many people trained makes a huge difference, it really does.

I’d like to start by saying that I think Mind Cymru and the work that they’ve done in sports and athletics makes a massive difference. This is where people are, this is where people come together. There is already, of course, that link with physical health. You create bonds and can have conversations with people, which make all the difference and reduce that stigma. We often hear the Cabinet Secretary for Education talking about these sporting clubs and making sure that you’ve got people in there who can really help others—it’s not even just for the people who are engaging in grass-roots sports, wherever it may be, it is also for their wider community and their wider family, and that sense of belonging. I think that’s really important. I want to say that, of course, my colleague Jack Sargeant is very passionate about this. He and I did meet at Sport Wales last week to discuss how this could be done on a wider basis. I’m really excited about that, because, as you said, it makes a huge difference. Please invite me. I would love to come. I would love to come and meet people and have a chat with them and see how they’re finding it.

Doing the mental health training is really important, and I want to link this with the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy that we launched at the beginning of the month, because a big part of that is still the understanding. One of the things that resonates with people is that we all would find it very difficult to be in a situation where somebody came to you and said, ‘I’m struggling; I need help’, and you have that moment of panic where you’re like, ‘I don’t know what to do with this. I don’t know how to help, I don’t know where to take you. I don’t know what to say. I don’t want to get it wrong’, and I think that those are the things that I’ve seen people have in the training, and through talking to people, you get to talk through some of that. And so, in those situations, you know exactly what to do, you know exactly how to help, and you make that person feel really safe, which is really important. So, thank you. Please invite me. And like I said, myself and Jack Sargeant continue to work very closely on rolling this out so that more people can benefit. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Deaf people are twice as likely to experience a mental health problem as a hearing person, yet Wales is the only UK country without a deaf mental health service. Speaking here last November, I called for a statement by you as the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the inclusion of deaf people in the new mental health strategy for Wales, after the all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group—a group of deaf and hearing professionals and charities—had written to you stating that they were keen to ensure that deaf people in Wales are really and truly part of this.

After questioning the First Minister here in February, asking for an update and to ensure that the Welsh Government engaged with the group and the Royal College of Psychiatrists, with whom they are working closely, the First Minister said that the Welsh Government had asked the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee to undertake a review to improve mental health services for those who are deaf or hard of hearing, and that this review would inform the delivery plan published alongside the strategy.

Although the strategy now states that quality statements will be informed by a recent review of mental health services for deaf people, why does this not confirm involvement of the All-Wales Deaf Mental Health and Well-being Group or that there will be a delivery plan turning the relevant quality statement from a vision into quantifiable action?

Finally, although the strategy states that neurodivergent people are at greater risk of experiencing mental health conditions, why does it not categorically state that conditions such as autism and ADHD are lifelong conditions, not mental health conditions, although they can lead to challenges that may increase the risk of stress, anxiety and depression, and that it is therefore incumbent on services to establish and adjust to an autistic person's communication, sensory and processing needs, recognising the causes of their heightened anxiety, and therefore stop treating them as the problem?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, Mark Isherwood. As I am sure you are aware, it is Deaf Awareness Week this week. The theme this year is 'beyond silence', and that is about breaking down those barriers and also celebrating the rich deaf culture that we have. I always truly appreciate how you advocate for the deaf community. Thank you very much.

Because of your questions, and your continuing to raise them, I do want to assure you that, in the three-year delivery plan—and it comes under vision statement 4, so it's is 4.9—we have a commitment here that says that we will consider findings from the recent review of mental health services for deaf people and develop an implementation plan to align with the central approach to improve support for people with sensory loss across all health services. We have a commitment to do that by the end of year 1. The reason for that, again, is because it will be done truly through co-production, which takes time and we want to get it right. But I want to assure you that that commitment is very much there in the strategy.

Additionally to that, under vision statement 4.12, our commitment is to also review pathways to ensure that they are fit for purpose in terms of front-line remote assessments, and that's across our population. That will also include people who are deaf, as well as black, Asian and minority ethnic people, LGBTQ+ people, and other underserved communities. That will be by the end of year 2, again, to make sure that the service that everybody is getting is appropriate to what they need.

Also, just to be absolutely clear, which I do feel the strategy is, of course neurodivergence is not a mental health condition, but ensuring that people who are neurodivergent and who also have mental health needs receive the care they need when they have those needs is a priority that is an action in the strategy.

We are committed to reducing waiting times and increasing the pre-diagnostic support for people with ADHD, autism and other neurodivergent conditions. As you know, we continue to invest so that they get the support that they need when it comes to neurodivergent assessments. But also, alongside that, all of this is going to be about a person-centred approach and taking into consideration those specific needs that people have when they are reaching out for mental health support.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Diolch. First of all, I would like to thank the Minister for bringing forward this very important statement today. At the cross-party group on suicide prevention last week, we had a presentation on the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy, and also a presentation on Swansea University's new prevention and self-harm centre, under Professor Ann John, and all of this was very well received. I know that the mental health strategy sits alongside this strategy, and I wondered if you could tell us how they will work together to ensure that this is taken forward.

Already this afternoon, we have heard mention of health inequalities and how they affect outcomes and the mental health of people. So, perhaps you could say a bit more about how it will be possible to link in with strategies, such as the LGBTQ+ action strategy and the anti-racist action plan. Finally, with children, how will this link in with, for example, the child poverty strategy? Because we all want to give our children the very best start in life, and we know that the early years are so important in terms of what happens afterwards.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Julie Morgan, for those questions. I always really appreciate it when you invite me to the cross-party groups. It's wonderful to get that even wider input. I'm really pleased that Professor Ann John, who is very much an expert in this area, and we're very fortunate to have her input, was there to talk about it, and also the self-harm aspect of it as well. I was really blown away when we had the conference about the thorough research that has been done in that area, and it was not meant to be seen as an add-on. Self-harm, along with the suicide prevention strategy, was absolutely crucial.

They’re sister strategies, that is the way that I see it. Because—and I think, like I said, Lynne Neagle has always said this before—we need the general mental health and well-being strategy, which is where we're now trying to bring in that model of care, that stepped care, single session, but we also know that we need to understand so much better the reasons for suicide and self-harm, and that really needs to be evidence based and evidence led, because we've never really had that. And so from that, then, we will have that tailored support and that tailored set of outcomes that we need to set in place so that we can really make a difference.

They are intertwined in many ways, because what I want to see from our mental health and well-being strategy is, ultimately, that people get that support as early as possible, and they don't reach that crisis point, but then we also free up capacity for people who will need specialist care. And I think that one of the key things that always comes through is that, if people reach out, or if they get that courage to reach out—and it's so difficult to articulate sometimes exactly what it is that you're feeling, and exactly what you need when you don't know what you need—and if they feel then as if that's not heard, how that can really spiral, and how it's very difficult for them to do that again.

So it's all connected, but I'm really pleased that we've got such excellent people doing the research that we need, because we do need to better understand it. I always talk so much about lived experience. As I've said before, Neil Ingham from the Samaritans said to me on the day that we launched the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy that the difference, when you're looking at suicide, is that you've got the lived experience of the people who are still here, and you almost have to leave a physical chair there in the room for the people who aren't, because that's the experience that we don't have, necessarily. So it's so sensitive, and I just wanted to explain that that's why we have them separate, but they're sisters.

I also wanted to say, about the equalities part of it, that this went completely through cross-Government channels. I've had the absolute incredible input of many of my colleagues, and Jane Hutt, and looking at, like you said, the race equality action plan, the disability action plan as well. All of this is absolutely woven together, because the main thing about this is that we're demedicalising mental health, because we know that there are so many factors out there that impact it, and we need to be able to talk about them all. So I want to assure you this is absolutely working cross-Government, and really taking into account all the equality strategies that, again, have been designed by people with lived experience.

And then finally, yes, when it comes to the support of children and young people, when we had the consultation, we had a tremendous amount of feedback from children and young people, and I continue to do that. Just this coming Saturday, myself and my colleague the Minister for Children and Social Care are going to spend the day in workshops with looked-after children, and ask them, ‘What does this mean to you? How would this work best for you?’ And then it's also going to fit into, of course, the frameworks that we have already in place, so the national multi-agency practice framework for children's services—it will be woven into that as well. As you know, I'm a big fan of advocacy for children, and I think that that also needs to play a key part in this. But they've absolutely been consulted too, and I hope that that reflects then, in the strategy and the delivery plan, exactly what we're trying to achieve for all of our generations across Wales. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister.

5. Legislative Consent Motion: The Data (Use and Access) Bill

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is next, the legislative consent motion on the Data (Use and Access) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion and recommend the Senedd consent to the relevant provisions in the Data (Use and Access) Bill, as set out in the legislative consent memoranda laid on this Bill.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And I call on the Chair—

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Sorry, Deputy—. I was going to continue. I wasn't entirely sure it was picking me up. [Laughter.]

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I can hear you clearly.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I was just getting started. Apologies to colleagues.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You've got another four minutes. You're okay.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Okay. So, through this Bill, the UK Government is seeking to harness the power of data for economic growth, support a modern digital Government and improve people's lives.

Whilst the vast majority of this Bill is reserved, there are provisions that fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as outlined in the memoranda. Extensive discussions have been held with the UK Government focused on the devolved implications of some of these provisions. I'm pleased to say that these concluded with the UK Government tabling amendments to the national underground asset register provisions on 25 March 2025. The national underground asset register, which has been in use here in Wales since 2021, is a great example of how digital services, data and technology can be used to improve the lives of people living within Wales. The amendments made to the newer provisions demonstrated a concession on the part of the UK Government, and provide necessary constitutional safeguards regarding this part of the Bill.

Our discussions with the UK Government also considered the devolved implications of Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill. Members will be aware that the two Governments were not aligned in the devolution analysis surrounding these provisions. However, I welcome the policy intent of these provisions, which will bring benefits to people in Wales. For example, regulations that underpin the establishment of smart data schemes will improve the quality of services provided to individuals and businesses in Wales, whilst greater use of digital identities will make it easier for individuals to prove their identities, enabling greater access to digital public services.

I appreciate the Senedd will be disappointed with the late tabling of the fourth legislative consent memorandum. While swift engagement with the UK Government did enable us to lay the required memorandum very quickly, I appreciate the Senedd's ability to scrutinise those amendments will have been impacted.

On the matter of EU data adequacy, the Senedd will be aware that I have raised concerns regarding the potential impact of this Bill on adequacy. I will continue to raise these concerns with the UK Government through the appropriate inter-governmental channels.

So, to conclude, I would like to thank the committees for considering these memoranda, and in recognition of the positive impacts of this Bill, I recommend that the Senedd supports this Bill and gives its consent.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on the Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The four memoranda related to the data Bill were referred to our committee. Unfortunately, as the last two memoranda were not laid until the day before the Easter recess and last Monday, the committee has not had an opportunity to consider memoranda 3 and 4. The committee's report, therefore, focuses on the original memorandum and supplementary memorandum No. 2 only. It's a shame that we didn't have an opportunity to scrutinise the others.

Data sharing between the UK and the European Union is a crucial element, of course, of the relationship between the United Kingdom and the EU post Brexit.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We therefore share the Welsh Government's concerns about the Bill's potential effect on the current and future adequacy decisions, particularly in relation to trade and public services delivery. Most private businesses and public services in Wales rely on cross-border data flows, and the loss of adequacy could affect other areas of data sharing, including law enforcement.

We are even more concerned about the potential effects of the Bill on EU data adequacy and the trade and co-operation agreement when considered in the context of future UK-EU relations. The First Minister's recent letter to us in January lists ensuring retention of EU data adequacy for Welsh businesses trading with the EU as a priority for the TCA review. Given that priority, the potential loss of EU data adequacy as a result of the Bill, and the major threat this would pose for Welsh exporting businesses, is particularly concerning.

We are disappointed that neither the LCM nor the SLCM include a TCA analysis, despite the Welsh Government accepting our recommendation that LCMs on Bills that affect the TCA should set out the Welsh Government's assessment of such an effect. We note that the Welsh Government does not believe that the Bill will have a direct or immediate effect on the UK's compliance with the TCA. We do, however, note that the Welsh Government is now of the view that TCA data protection provisions could be undermined, should the Bill lead to UK-EU divergence. We share the Welsh Government’s concerns that the Bill could signal the beginning of the UK’s divergence from the data protection regime that's currently in place across the EU, and the effect this could have on private businesses and public services, as well as law enforcement.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

So, although the committee has not considered memoranda 3 and 4, I note the Welsh Government’s concerns regarding data adequacy, and those concerns remain. So, until these concerns have been addressed, my committee will recommend that the Senedd withholds its consent for the United Kingdom Government to legislate on these devolved matters.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I see what Rebecca's problem was. I assume—. Oh, it's gone red again now.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has reported on all four legislative consent memorandums for the Bill. Our fourth report was laid earlier today, given that memorandum No. 4 was laid only last week. The committee decided to consider and report on memorandum No. 4 rapidly because of the position this Senedd now finds itself in.

The Cabinet Secretary is recommending that the Senedd grants consent to the relevant provisions, despite continuing to have constitutional concerns with the Bill. The committee reports have focused on these significant constitutional matters. The Cabinet Secretary has been clear that she still has concerns about the constitutional implications of provisions in Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill that affect devolved matters. For example, Part 1 confers regulation-making powers on the UK Government in a devolved area with no role for the Welsh Ministers or the Senedd.

In memorandum No. 3, the Cabinet Secretary appears to suggest that amendments to the provisions of concern in Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill have not been pursued because the UK and Welsh Governments were not aligned on the devolution analysis on these parts of the Bill. The committee has highlighted the Welsh Government's concerns with similar provisions about customer and business data and the disclosure of information in the previous UK Government Data Protection and Digital Information Bill meant that the Welsh Government recommended to the Senedd that consent to that Bill be withheld. The committee is not satisfied that the Cabinet Secretary has offered a convincing argument as to why the concerns with Part 1 and 2 of the Bill could be conceded. The committee has acknowledged that the amendments tabled to Part 3 for the House of Commons Report Stage satisfy the Cabinet Secretary's concern as regards the relevant provisions in that part. However, while a consenting role for the Welsh Ministers is a marked improvement to the requirements of Part 3 of the Bill, a role solely for the Welsh Ministers in the exercise of delegated powers by the UK Government, which affects devolved interests, would still mean that the Senedd would be bypassed in these matters. Furthermore, while the committee has acknowledged this new consenting role for the Welsh Ministers, it remains the case that clauses 56 and 57 of the Bill as amended will still confer delegated powers that are to be exercisable in devolved areas solely by the Secretary of State. This is unwelcome and a serious cause for concern.

In addition to the outstanding matters of concern with Parts 1 and 2, the Cabinet Secretary remains concerned that the Bill may have an impact on UK-EU data adequacy status, with potential repercussions for trade and public service delivering. It is unclear to us how the Cabinet Secretary intends to resolve the Welsh Government's concerns. The committee considers that the Welsh Government's handling of Bills introduced to the UK Parliament, which make provision that has regard to devolved matters, to be increasingly inadequate. The committee has highlighted the pressure and the responsibility falling to the Senedd's committees to report on serious matters, so that the Senedd as a whole is able to make an informed decision as to whether or not to grant consent to the Bill. The committee is concerned that a suboptimal memoranda, as regards both quality and timeliness, increases the risk that the Senedd may make legislative consent decisions it would not normally make, had it been able to consider key information within an appropriate framework.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

While we welcome certain elements of the Bill—and there is, of course, definitely a need for better streamlining, accessibility and portability of data, to improve the effectiveness of public services—Plaid Cymru cannot support this LCM, particularly due to potential far-reaching constitutional implications, which, as has been noted by committees, have not been resolved in a satisfactory way. Legitimate concerns have also been raised as to its potential to dilute standards on data protection, and it's telling in this respect that the UK Government has refused to share this relevant risk assessment on this matter with the Welsh Government.

From a broader perspective, it's also worth noting that this Bill apparently forms a key plank of the UK Government's agenda for growth, an agenda that so far has generated little tangible benefit for Wales. So, for those points, we will be voting against giving consent.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I just want to speak regarding the national underground assets register, which is part of this Bill. So, is it proposed that it will still fall under the Secretary of State? I want to just speak about the intricacies of the web of pipes and cables that are underground. It's really complicated. It needs mapping with local knowledge, and expertise needs capturing. We've had examples recently of swallow holes where pipes have leaked under the roads and roads have disappeared. Ducts get blocked, and it means that you have roadworks repeatedly, several times before any work gets done, and it's a huge issue when local authorities are trying to manage this.

Our strategic road network is devolved to Welsh Government. Our local road network is devolved to local authorities. Planning is devolved. When utilities need to access the underground network, they must contact the street works of local authorities. So, I want to know, have local authorities been consulted, and are officials aware of the enormity of this? Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Is that a hand up? Are you wishing to speak, Mr Davies? Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you. I think the points raised by Carolyn Thomas are very powerful and very important, and probably need to be addressed by the Cabinet Secretary in her response. The First Minister was very clear this morning in a speech that she made at the Norwegian church that where the devolved settlement is engaged, unless consent lies with Welsh Ministers, then consent would not be provided for UK legislation. I thought she was very clear about that point. This LCM fails that test, I believe, in the way that's been set out by Carolyn Thomas.

The whole story of this LCM has been one where the Welsh Government has been running to catch up with decisions taken in London and has been seeking—. And I commend the Cabinet Secretary for the work she's done in seeking to improve the Bill, because she has made significant efforts, and she has had an impact in terms of what she has achieved, and she should be commended for that. But this does not deliver on the commitment made by the First Minister this morning. And what should not be happening is that the UK Government of any colour should be bringing forward legislation that is fundamentally rooted in devolved matters without the Welsh Government's consent and without the Welsh Government's knowledge and without the Welsh Government being a partner to that. We've seen too many LCMs in this Senedd in totality, but what we are seeing now is an LCM that deals with devolved matters and where the Welsh Government is seceding the settlement to UK Ministers, and also, at the same time, enabling UK Ministers to amend Welsh legislation without reference to either Welsh Ministers or this Parliament, and that is unacceptable. It fails completely the tests that have been set by the First Minister to support UK legislation. So, it does not, in my mind, feel that we should be comfortable in voting in favour of this today.

I would prefer the Minister, the Cabinet Secretary, to withdraw this today and come back with an LCM that does pass the test established by the First Minister. But otherwise, I think many Labour Members who supported the First Minister this morning will feel very, very difficult about voting for this this afternoon.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call the Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I'm grateful to all colleagues for their contributions this afternoon. Hopefully what I'll be able to say will allay some of the concerns raised by a number of colleagues.

I'll begin on the data adequacy point. So, clearly data adequacy is not devolved and it is a matter that is being progressed between the UK Government in conjunction with the EU Commission. The responsibility for that renewal process for data adequacy does sit with the EU Commission. Colleagues will be aware that they have proposed a six-month extension to its adequacy decisions, and that's to provide time for the Commission to complete its review of data adequacy once the data Bill has completed its passage through the UK Parliament.

Both I and officials have stressed the importance of retaining data adequacy to the UK Government and the outcome of data adequacy reviews will not be known until after the Bill has completed its passage through Parliament. So, I just want to be really clear with colleagues that withholding consent on the Bill will not resolve this from an adequacy point of view today. So, I hope that that response, at least to the first Chair's contribution this afternoon, in terms of one of the reasons why the committee is not recommending consent—. The UK maintaining its data adequacy status is absolutely vital, and I just, again, reassure colleagues that our officials are contributing to the work that is required to ensure that adequacy can be achieved, and we'll be providing additional information to the UK Government as required in that space.

And again, in relation to the concerns on the trade and co-operation agreement, I did write to committees on 5 February, setting out the Welsh Government's view that the Bill will not have a direct or immediate impact on the UK's compliance with the TCA, and I can confirm that none of the relevant amendments have changed our assessment of the impact of the Bill on the TCA. The data protection provisions within the TCA are, in general, quite broad and high level, and, as such, the changes to the UK's data protection framework proposed by the Bill are unlikely to impact on the UK's compliance with the TCA. But, of course, we have highlighted divergence from the data protection regime currently in place across the EU and UK as something that could undermine the data protection provisions in the TCA in future.

And I really want to address the points made about the national underground asset register as well. Those points within the Bill will certainly improve the way that bodies and industry across the UK install, maintain and operate and repair buried infrastructure. Not only will that deliver financial savings, but it will also improve efficiency and reduce the number of asset strikes and reduce disruption for both the public and businesses. Clearly, I think that's something that we would all welcome and support. When the Welsh Government recommended that consent be withheld for the previous Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, key to that was the approach that that Government was taking in respect of the NUAR provisions.

The removal of a devolved executive function from the Welsh Ministers without agreement was highlighted as being completely inappropriate, and I know that was shared by committees. However, engagement with the current UK Government has resolved that issue, and I've referred to the amendments that were tabled by the UK Government on 25 March. So, again, I hope that provides colleagues with some reassurance there.

And then, on those constitutional concerns around Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill, colleagues who debated this in committee will recall that that was a finely balanced particular part of the Bill. The Scottish Government are of the view that it's important that there is the same regulatory regime applying across the UK, simplifying the operations of business and ensuring that consumers and firms also benefit. And they are of the view—and there's an argument, certainly, to be made—that a UK-wide code of practice for sharing personal information for digital verification purposes certainly has something to be said for it. Having two different codes would create a disparity of guidance, with inconsistency potentially creating confusion between public authorities in Wales and UK-wide identity service providers to whom they would be providing that information.

So, the Scottish Parliament did agree the motion on the LCM on 1 April, giving its consent to the Bill, and I hope that I've been able to address the specific concerns that colleagues have had in reference to the recent amendments made to the Bill by the UK Government and the fact that what we decide today won't have an impact on either where we are in relation to the TCA or the data adequacy decisions, which will be taken following the passage of the Bill.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

6. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 this afternoon is a motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments for the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill. I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery to move the motion—Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I move the motion.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have no other speakers, so the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Voting Time

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move directly to voting.

We will vote on item 5, the legislative consent motion on the data Bill. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, one abstention and 11 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We will now take a 10-minute break before moving to Stage 3 proceedings. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene. I would encourage Members to return to the Chamber promptly, please.

8. Stage 3 of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We recommence our session today by turning to Stage 3 of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill.

Group 1: Welsh Language Strategy (Amendments 22, 23, 47, 48, 49, 20, 21)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Group 1 is the group of amendments relating to the Welsh language strategy. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 22. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment. Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. The target of a million Welsh speakers has become widely recognised since it was adopted by the Welsh Government in our 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy in 2017. Having a clear goal to articulate what we are trying to achieve through our efforts to promote and facilitate the acquisition and use of Welsh has received cross-party support in the Senedd. It has also galvanised efforts by so many organisations and individuals across Wales to join us on this journey.

In Stage 2, the committee voted to support Cefin Campbell’s amendments that put beyond any doubt that the target of a million speakers was never intended to act as a cap. The Government continues to support this intention. Amendments 20, 21, 22 and 23 in the name of the Government, which I am moving today, are amendments to the Welsh text only of the sections amended at Stage 2. They are required in order to be consistent with the Welsh Government's drafting style. They do not in any way change the effect of the amendments agreed at Stage 2.

Turning now to the other amendments in this group, the purpose of amendment 49 in the name of Cefin Campbell is to ensure that the Welsh language strategy must include the steps that Welsh Ministers intend to take to encourage an increase in digital use of the Welsh language. I was pleased to be able to work with the Member following Stage 2 on this amendment, and I can confirm that the Welsh Government will support amendment 49, together with amendments 47 and 48, which ensure drafting accuracy within the same section. I therefore call on Members to support all of the amendments in this group.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I very much look forward to the discussions taking place today, but before referring to the specific amendments in this group, I would like to make a few general comments about this very important Bill. To begin with, I would like to declare an interest. As you will know, I was part of the early discussions on the development of this Bill, particularly when preparing the White Paper as part of the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. But as you will also know, the agreement ended before any specific work took place on the drafting of the Bill itself.

Llywydd, a quarter of a century after the opening of this Senedd, it is disappointing that the majority of children and young people in Wales continue to be deprived of the opportunity to learn Welsh in our education system and to use the language in their everyday life. Due to these failures over the past decades, it's very important that we legislate in this area to ensure the necessary progress is made in order to reach a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

If we look at the figures over the last decade alone, in 2014, 21.9 per cent of primary school pupils received their education in schools where Welsh was the primary medium of instruction. By 2024, the corresponding percentage was 22.5 per cent, which is an extremely small increase of just 0.6 per cent. In fact, over the same period for pupils in secondary schools, the percentage of those receiving their education through the medium of Welsh has actually decreased from 14.2 per cent to 13.5 per cent. The fact that we have stood still for an entire decade underlines the need for a complete transformation of the current organisation in order to see significant growth in the number of pupils receiving Welsh-medium education, and a fundamental change in the way that Welsh is taught in English-medium schools.

Turning, then, to my amendments in this group, at Stage 2 I introduced an amendment, unsuccessfully at the time, which sought to add a reference to digital platforms in the the Welsh language strategy. Although this amendment was not passed, I was very grateful to receive a commitment from the Cabinet Secretary—and we’ve heard that commitment already today—that he would work with me on this specific issue during Stage 3. And so, we did work together on the amendments that are before us today in this group.

So, the purpose of amendment 49 is to add a clause in section 1 that ensures that Welsh Government Ministers, when drawing up a new Welsh language strategy, include the steps that they intend to take to encourage an increase in digital use of the Welsh language, and I'm very pleased to welcome the support of the Cabinet Secretary and the Government for this amendment. As we all know, in today's world, we cannot ignore the influence and presence of digital media in the lives of each and every one of us, but especially the lives of our children and young people in terms of the use of the Welsh language.

Technology can make it easier for us to use the Welsh language in all aspects of life, from education and the workplace to chatting with friends, family and colleagues. It's interesting, I heard a statistic recently that stated that over 70 per cent of young people contact their friends solely through the means of technology. I therefore hope that, by incorporating this amendment, the Bill will align well with the Government's current digital technology aspirations and strategies. So, amendments 47 and 48 in my name are consequential to amendment 49, by adding the word 'use' to section 1, sub-section 1(b)(i) and (ii) when referring to setting targets to increase the use of the Welsh language in the workplace and its social use.

So, I do accept the Cabinet Secretary's support for adapting the Welsh Government's targets to at least 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 to ensure that the ceiling doesn't remain at a million. And I'm not concerned about the placement or location of one word or one comma—that was the topic of quite a conversation between myself and the Cabinet Secretary at one point—but there is a commitment here to set the ambition very, very high. So, the change of wording here would retain the current policy objective, but would provide scope for this Government and future Governments to aim higher in terms of increasing the number of Welsh speakers. Thank you very much.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I'd like to thank Cefin Campbell for setting out the background and context to the Bill, and, of course, I welcome the fact that he is supporting the amendments in group 1, and I hope other Members will follow suit.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question is that amendment 22 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 22 is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 23, is it moved?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It is moved. The question is that amendment 23 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 23 is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Cefin Campbell, amendment 47, is it moved?

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Abstention, because—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, I think it is—

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Sorry, 47 is moved. Sorry, I didn't hear. Sorry, it is moved, yes.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, that's fine. That's fine. Amendment 47 has been moved, therefore. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 47 is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 48. Is it moved, Cefin Campbell?

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore the amendment is agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 49, is it moved?

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Yes, it is moved. Is there any objection to amendment 49? No, there is not. Therefore, amendment 49 is agreed too.

Group 2: Technical amendments (Amendments 24, 34, 35, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Group 2. These are the technical amendments. Amendment 24 is the lead amendment in this group. The Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. The amendments in this group are technical amendments, introduced to ensure that the provisions of the Bill work as intended. The purpose and effect of amendment 24 is to provide a definition of Welsh language education in Part 1 of the Bill. The purpose of amendment 34 is to remove an unnecessary signpost. The purpose of amendment 35 is to reflect the purpose of promoting Welsh language education in primarily Welsh language schools. The purpose and effect of amendments 40, 41 and 43 is to ensure accuracy of text. In relation to amendments 38, 39 and 42, they ensure consistency between the Welsh and English texts, and they amend the English text only. I urge Members to support every amendment in this group.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have no other speakers on this group. Therefore, the question is that amendment 24 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 24 is agreed.

Group 3: Calculating the number of Welsh speakers (Amendments 72, 44)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will move on now to group 3. The third group of amendments relates to calculating the number of Welsh speakers. Amendment 72 is the lead amendment in this group. The Cabinet Secretary to move and speak to the lead amendment—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I move amendment 72, which responds to amendment 103, tabled by Cefin Campbell at Stage 2, and which was agreed by the committee; and also amendment 1, tabled by Tom Giffard at Stage 3, which has now been withdrawn. The effect of amendment 72 is to make technical amendments to the drafting and to provide clarity that the percentage of pupils in primary Welsh language category schools must be calculated on the basis of all pupils of compulsory school age who are in maintained schools.

It also provides that the Welsh Minister must include, at least once every five years, an assessment of the total number of Welsh speakers in Wales, by reference to age, in the report on the Welsh language strategy. This part of the amendment has been included following consideration of the now withdrawn amendment 1, tabled by Tom Giffard. The Government supports the intention behind that amendment, and I thank Tom Giffard for withdrawing amendment 1 to facilitate the inclusion of this matter in amendment 72.

Amendment 44, in the name of the Government, is a technical amendment that is consequential to amendment 72. I call on Members to support amendments 72 and 44 in this group.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Once again, I would like to note that these amendments derive from an amendment in my name, which was agreed by the committee in Stage 2. I believe that, when assessing the number and percentage of pupils of compulsory school age in each local authority area who are educated in main language Welsh category schools, we will be able to measure the progress that the Government is making across Wales, and then see if some local authorities need more support and encouragement than others, in terms of increasing the provision of Welsh language education in their areas.

I therefore accept this amendment and the Cabinet Secretary's justification for introducing it, and I also welcome the addition that an assessment is made of the number and percentage of Welsh speakers, as well as analysis according to age. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Does the Cabinet Secretary wish to reply?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I would just like to thank Cefin Campbell for his support for these amendments in this group.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question is that amendment 72 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 72 is therefore agreed.

Group 4: Review of the Code (Amendment 2)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Group 4 relates to review of the code. Amendment 2 is the lead and only amendment in this group and I call on Tom Giffard to move.