Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 19 March 2025

267 contributions from 37 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome, all, to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. The first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the implementation of Ynni Cymru? OQ62481

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Ynni Cymru team is working with the 32 smart local energy projects across Wales funded by this year’s £10 million capital grant fund and planning to open next year’s programme in April. Ynni Cymru is also working with existing community projects to improve their productivity through its optimisation programme.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that. The promise with Ynni Cymru, of course, is that it would take a lead in shaping the energy system to drive Wales towards meeting its net-zero targets. Now, what we're seeing in the real world is a swathe of private sector developers effectively taking the lead and flooding rural Wales with what I can only describe as speculative proposed developments. Do you know there are 126 proposed large-scale renewable projects in the pipeline by private companies at the minute, with a generation capacity of 40 GW, which is 25 times the current electricity demand in Wales? Now, one of these I've raised with you previously is Ynni Celyn. It's a proposal in Gwyddelwern in my region. It's a huge 4 GWh battery storage facility, only a few hundred metres from the village. That single project is proposed to cost as much as the electric arc furnace in Port Talbot. So, that's the scale we're talking about. And Ynni Celyn is only one of 79 large-scale battery energy storage systems or schemes currently in the pipeline in Wales. Now, would you agree with me, therefore, that the Governments in both Wales and Westminster need to take a greater control of the situation because, as things stand, it looks to me as if developers are ruling the roost on this one? And is it right that our rural communities are facing hundreds of speculative project applications without sufficient protection from what is, effectively, a free for all?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I'm afraid we have a difference of opinion in terms of what Ynni Cymru was set up to do. Ynni Cymru was never going to be the vehicle for delivering large-scale energy projects across Wales. It's always been about smart local energy systems, and, actually, it's been very successful in delivering on those particular projects. Now, you know that I can't be drawn in to comment in particular on the Ynni Celyn proposed development to which you referred because of my responsibilities in respect of planning. But, ultimately, our energy system in the future is going to need investment by the private sector but also investment through bodies such as Ynni Cymru, Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru and Great British Energy, which, of course, will be an important part in the mix as well.

I think the most important thing here is that, when we do have a large proliferation of applications coming through, the planning system itself has to be absolutely sound, it has to give individuals and communities the opportunity to have their say, it has to weigh up properly the environmental impacts and the overall impacts on the communities affected. I do think that we have a robust planning system to look at those particular cases. But, as the question related to Ynni Cymru, I think that it has been tremendously successful in its early stages, and I think it is a testament to the good work that we did together through the co-operation agreement.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government support to enable organisations in Delyn to become more energy efficient? OQ62480

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Reducing demand and investing in energy efficiency measures remain the best ways to manage our future energy needs. The Welsh Government is supporting organisations to achieve this through the Welsh Government energy service, the Development Bank of Wales and a wide range of advice services.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I found out more first-hand recently about the real difference that things like Ynni Cymru schemes are making in my constituency, when I went back to visit Holywell Town Football Club once again. The Ynni Cymru funding for Holywell Town FC was mentioned previously by you in this Siambr. In practice, this funding will mean that the club will not only become self-sufficient in energy terms, but will bring much broader benefits for the club, from being able to sell energy back to the grid to creating more comfortable facilities for the whole community to use. They also include onsite a Jobs Growth Wales+ scheme that offers local placements in woodwork skills, providing opportunities, opening doors and, hopefully, helping change the lives of young people in the area. I have to say I'm incredibly grateful to the warm welcome that was shown to me by Tracey and all involved at Holywell Town FC, and I want to very much recognise on the record that they don't just give it their all on the pitch, but also go the extra mile, as the club is more than part of the community, it is the heart of the community. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you firstly join me in recognising all that the team at the club is doing and the difference they are making? And also, are you able to confirm that the Welsh Government is committed to continuing to support organisations like Holywell Town FC to benefit the environment, the economy and, of course, the community? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for the question and I think that the work that Hollywell Town Football Club has done has been immense in terms of taking on the opportunities presented by Ynni Cymru. The project is already nearing completion. The money only went through a short period ago, and it's seeing the new smart LED lighting, air-source heat pumps, solar panels, battery storage and a smart building management system, and together those are expected then to reduce the costs of running the club by around 80 per cent. And all of that money now is able to be reinvested in grass-roots sports in the area, providing more opportunities for young people to get involved. And that's exactly the kind of project that we envisaged when Ynni Cymru began its work.

And it is a real testament to organisations across the length and breadth of Wales in terms of how quickly they've been able to mobilise to spend the money to make a difference, reducing their own costs, but then also reducing pressure on the grid and making sure that they're making their contribution on our journey towards net zero as well. I'm really pleased that we've been able to provide a further £10 million in the budget for the next financial year, and there will be a webinar for interested organisations, small businesses and others in April so that they can explore how they can make the most of that funding. In the last round, we had over 100 applications. We were able to support 32 of them, so it definitely shows that there is really strong demand for this kind of work.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Speaking at the November 2023 meeting of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, Flintshire's domestic energy team—now a council service, but originally a partnership with the North Wales Energy Advice Centre at Mold, a charity—stated, 'A member of the team runs the ECO Flex scheme for us in partnership with Denbighshire council. It's useful to get a few councils together to run it for you. It's then possible to monitor the scheme and put the customer first. We're also bringing together an area base, bringing in owner-occupiers and private renters to try and combat issues in the wider area. This is a project that's working very well. This goes back to what local authorities are and can do, maximising the scheme. We'll take this back to our cabinet member meetings with the Welsh Local Government Association to share this good practice.' Learning from this, what action, if any, will you therefore take to introduce a cross-sector energy-efficient Wales programme for fuel-poor households on a regional basis across Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for that question and that example of a project that is really working well, and I think that what makes that project so successful is the collaborative working across boundaries that is taking place. And it really demonstrates as well the importance of good energy advice. So, we need to make sure that that advice is available to households, which it is through the Welsh Government Nest scheme, but also through the Welsh Government energy service. That supports the public sector and, actually, the services provided by that energy service are expected to generate more than £367 million through savings and power generation for the public sector as well. So, this certainly does show the value of good advice, both for the public sector and also for individual households. And I'll definitely take a closer look at the example that has been provided by Mark Isherwood this afternoon because it certainly sounds like something that should be built on.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I'm going to start by looking at the facts. Fact 1: the UK Government's own website states,

'Economic growth is the number one mission of the government.'

Fact 2: the latest economic figures have shown that the economy actually shrank in January. Despite the goal of growth, the Chancellor's budget was clearly not a budget for growth at all, was it? I'll ask you therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what measures is the Welsh Labour Government taking to mitigate the damaging effects of their Westminster colleagues down the M4?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think it's well rehearsed now as to the very difficult set of circumstances that the UK Government found itself in when it took power after the long legacy of austerity on the part of the UK Government and billions of pounds of unfunded commitments. So, there is an awful lot of mess to clean up, and that sort of work doesn’t happen overnight, which is why the UK Government has quite rightly put a really, really strong focus on growth, despite the overall difficult economic context.

For our part, we’re working really closely with the UK Government to maximise the opportunities for growth. We see great potential through the UK Government’s industrial strategy, which I’m really glad identifies those sectors in Wales where we’re already excelling and where we already see potential for growth—for example, around advanced manufacturing, defence, semiconductors, the creative industries, fintech. These are all areas where we’re doing really well in Wales but also areas where we can grow. So, we’ll be working closely with the UK Government on that. We’ll be looking to extract as much investment as we can through the national wealth fund, and Great British Energy, and, of course, we’ve got our own investment summit, which the First Minister will be saying a little bit more about very shortly, which aims to bring investors from across the globe to Wales with propositions that we’re able to put in front of them for areas in which they can invest, in a place where we have a stable Government, where we have long-term plans for investment and we’re very clear about our economic credentials, which I think are—sorry, our environmental credentials—increasingly important to investors from overseas as well.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, this UK Government inherited the fastest growing economy in the G7 and deficit levels at only 40 per cent of those inherited in 2010 by the UK Government—fact. Of course, we know why the economy has shrunk. Business confidence is low, and our small and medium-sized enterprises are now less likely to hire or invest. And, of course, a shrinking economy means lower tax revenues, which means less money to spend, without higher public expenditure, which will drive inflation and cost levels and impose cuts in the future. In fact, the latest KPMG report showed that businesses commented on pausing or paring back hiring plans due to the subdued economic outlook and rising payroll costs, coming despite the UK Labour Government inheriting the fastest growing economy in the G7. With the Chancellor set to deliver a mini-budget next week to try and correct the UK economy’s course, what action, if any, is the Welsh Government taking to push for a reversal of either the rise in employer national insurance contributions or the family farm tax to help restore business confidence and investment?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I’ve been really interested in the Lloyds Bank 'Business Barometer', which came out earlier this week, and it showed the latest figures in Wales with a three points increase in business confidence in Wales, which I think is to be welcomed, and we’re certainly going in the right direction in terms of business confidence. So, I absolutely welcome that. I don’t want to speculate as to what the Chancellor might say on 26 March, but I know that my colleague the finance Minister has been in close contact with the UK Government, setting out the top priorities for Wales. We will look very carefully at what’s announced on 26 March.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Business confidence, as you indicate, is key, especially when Wales has the lowest wages per head, the highest unemployment per head, and so on. Already, we’re seeing BP and Equinor scaling back and halving investment in renewable energy, with focus being put on oil and gas instead. It’s clear that legacy industries are here for the long term, as we will, of course, be reliant on oil for many decades to come. But with these announcements scaling back funding for renewables, other than creating a task and finish group for offshore wind, what, if any, other steps is the Welsh Government taking to secure, for example, floating offshore wind developments?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, I was very pleased to attend an event sponsored by your colleague Sam Kurtz last night, which was there to launch the Milford Haven CO2 project, which will be really important in terms of taking businesses such as RWE on that decarbonisation journey. We’re working to impress upon the UK Government the importance of non-pipeline transfers of carbon capture. So, all of those things, I think, are really important, but really the message that came through in the event sponsored by Sam Kurtz last night was just the level of positivity that there is, and particularly so around the group that is looking at floating offshore wind. So, this is not a group about identifying what the broad opportunities are or telling us that floating offshore wind is a good thing and we should be pursuing this; this group is about how we make it happen. The ports group particularly is a sub-group underneath that, which is leading the way, quite rightly, because, obviously, the ports happen to be the ones where there will be investment first.

I think the level of positivity around the potential for floating offshore wind, and offshore wind more generally, is actually really positive. Again, I was with your colleague Sam Kurtz at the EmpowerCymru event just last week, and, again, that was bringing together all of those with an interest in renewable energy in Wales, and people who are keen to invest in Wales. And the positivity there, again, was huge. So, I think that people do see huge potential here in Wales, because they have a Government that is concentrating on improving the planning system. We’ve got the new infrastructure Act coming into force, and we’re also working really closely with our universities and colleges to make sure that those developers have the skills that they need. It does remind me of the first question that we had from Llyr Gruffydd earlier on today, which talked about the importance of having that balanced approach to planning, where we involve communities from the outset as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Cabinet Secretary has no doubt had conversations with her counterparts at a UK level in relation to the proposals for zonal pricing across the UK. What is the Welsh Government’s position on those proposals?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, I have had discussions with colleagues in the UK Government about their review of electricity market arrangements. In fact, just yesterday I was having discussions with the Minister, Michael Shanks, about this. So, currently, as colleagues will be aware, the UK Government is consulting on a range of options. So, it has maintained that commitment from the previous UK Government to review electricity market arrangements, with a view of delivering a lower cost system for customers. And a key approach of the REMA work at the moment is to explore what the options might be.

So, yes, one of the options being looked at is zonal pricing. Another option is a more large-scale reform of the current national pricing arrangements. The UK Government, yesterday in our meeting, was really, really clear that they haven’t decided on a particular option yet. There’s a lot more work to do in terms of those impact assessments. But we will be working closely with them, and our officials have been involved for quite some time with the UK Government on this.

From our part, we’re really keen to stress that, in Wales, we do have some industries that are still very high energy users, so we need to be very mindful of that. And these are businesses that can’t easily up and move to undertake their work elsewhere. But also, we’re really keen that the UK Government understands that, in Wales, there are a lot of people also facing fuel poverty. The overall aim of this, of course, is to deliver lower bills for people. But the UK Government hasn’t made a decision yet, and we’re keen to explore what the evidence is.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. The debate is very welcome, when we consider that, from both a domestic and industry perspective, energy pricing has presented a significant challenge for some time now.

When we look at zonal pricing in particular, the kinds of proposals do present a possible problem. Now, the principle of zonal pricing, and a zonal pricing system, where energy prices are set locally to reflect demand and generation level, is a good principle. But the Government may implement this system badly by creating multiple zones in Wales, which are merged, then, with high-energy demand areas, such as London and Birmingham, which then, actually, could increase bills for people in Wales. Now, Wales, of course, is an energy exporter, so households and businesses should feel the benefit of that through cheaper pricing. So, would the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that any future proposals should have a single Welsh zone?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’d have to give that some thought, in terms of what, if any, unintended impacts there would be as a result of that, because I know the UK Government is intending on undertaking a range of modelling to look at what different parameters there should be for the zones. So, I’ll certainly give that some more consideration, but I can see that there might be some unintended consequences from that.

I’m keen, of course, that this does result in those lower bills that the UK Government is aiming for. But, as I say, there will be a period now of looking at various different models for what those zones might be like, and what the impacts might be. It is important, though, that zones make sense in Wales, so that people can understand why they are in a particular zone. And, again, these are some discussions that we had yesterday with the UK Government. And we’re keen to work very closely with them. I think there is a genuine intent on the part of the UK Government to ensure that we are properly and fully engaged with that. The conclusion of the policy development phase is expected around mid 2025. Obviously, we'll keep colleagues updated as things progress.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

It’s important that we have that debate, and I think this is a debate that would be beneficial cross party in this particular sense, because we all want to see that exact same objective, which is to bring energy bills down for our constituents, but also as well for those businesses that operate in Wales. There is a fundamental principle here, and one that actually all of us should be quite familiar with when we are faced with some of those renewable energy developments, those large-scale renewable energy developments, in our constituencies, and that is that when energy is being produced on our doorstep, we should feel the direct benefit of that energy being produced, and one way of doing that is ensuring that energy bills are lower.

One of the bonuses, and I’m going to try and begin that process of convincing the Cabinet Secretary about a single Welsh zone, and one of the potential benefits of having a single Welsh zone would be that we would get that long-overdue investment in grid infrastructure. We know, in all our conversations around renewable energy projects and in large-scale industry, that the grid is the elephant in the room here. We don’t have a connection between north and south—there potentially is a way for us to get that focus from UK Government on that grid infrastructure here in Wales. But ultimately, what we actually do need here is security, security that would be provided by UK Government coming to a decision, because more delay creates that uncertainty for renewable energy investment, but also as well for industry investment. And I’m thinking in particular here about the electric arc furnace in Port Talbot. At the moment, we know there’s going to be increased energy demand there, but we also know as well that that means more costs for the site.

So, in those conversations with UK Government—and I’m grateful that the Cabinet Secretary is committed to keeping Members updated—is she able to ensure that Members across all sides of the Chamber are kept in the loop on those exact conversations, so that we as well can feed into it and then hopefully strengthen the Cabinet Secretary’s hand in those negotiations?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, I’m very keen to have conversations with colleagues on this particular issue. I do recognise, actually, that there’s a lot of cross-party interest. This was a piece of work that began under the previous UK Government. And I know that we all have an interest in delivering a lower cost system as well. So, I don’t see that this is a party political issue; it’s an issue that all colleagues will want to see delivered successfully. I think that’s fair to say.

I think those points about grid investment are absolutely critical as well. I hear about the importance of improved access to the grid and capacity in the grid every single day in this job. I play a slight game with myself: I see how far into the day I can get before somebody mentions the grid to me. It was quarter to nine this morning when I had my first reference to it. So, it is something that is absolutely at the top of people’s agendas, and quite rightly so.

I do welcome the work that the UK Government is doing on cleansing, if you like, the applications for the grid at the moment, removing those projects that simply are not going to come forward, and then moving those projects that are able to be brought forward up the list, to hopefully give them a sooner connection to the grid. I think that piece of work is welcome, but on its own it’s not going to solve the problem. So, we do need to improve capacity.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

3. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to reform the planning system to allow for greater power for local communities in decision making? OQ62461

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Greater power for local communities is about getting people engaged at the right time. Our proposals under the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 ensure early engagement and ensure that this is continued through the process. We have also started a project on digital interaction with the local planning system looking at pre-application consultation.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

The planning system we have does not always work for communities. A prime example of this is what’s happening at Ffos-y-fran in Merthyr. Ffos-y-fran was the site of opencast coal mining until last year, but since the coaling stopped, the local community has been left looking at a dirty derelict site, where a void that’s been left filled with what’s likely contaminated water still is there. Now, some weeks ago, the company submitted a revised restoration plan, and that goes nowhere near what was promised to the community when the work began all those years ago. It would leave the contaminated lake unfilled, mounds of waste as they are, and a rock face jutting down to the water. Now, these plans would leave the site as not only derelict but dangerous. But the planning system, as always, favours the developer, not the people who are stuck living near the site looking at it every day. I realise that you can’t intervene directly in an application like this, but could you please tell me what plans the Government would have to change the system to stop situations like this arising again, and could we have a meeting, please, to discuss how something like this could be avoided in the future?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful to Delyth Jewell for that and also, actually, for the work that I know that she did with my predecessor in this role around the Infrastructure (Wales) Act, which did lead to some real strengthening of the Act in terms of the role of communities, in particular, for example, the open-floor hearings, which might take place in future. There's a consultation paper that proposes that subordinate legislation would specify that hearings and inquiries undertaken as part of an examination would be broadcast online, and that is about increasing public accessibility to the examination. And also there was work that was done to bring the infrastructure Act really into a place that represents the modern system, because I know that lots of our Order consenting processes, which are replaced by the Act, such as the Electricity Act 1989 or the Harbours Act 1964, don't have any statutory requirements at all for pre-application consultation or engagement. So, I do think that the Infrastructure (Wales) Act will make a marked change in the improvements, and I know that a lot of that is due, and credit should be given to Delyth Jewell for the work that she did in this particular space.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

As with many planning applications, there are many statutory consultees, utility companies, home owners, neighbouring properties, and any controversial applications can attract lobby groups who often put lots of time, energy and efforts into participating in the planning process. Unsurprisingly, most are inspired to take part because they wish to object. However, a simple objection is not enough, and however strong the opposition, the submissions have to be based on planning policy, but therein lies the problem. There is generally, within our communities, a genuine lack of understanding of planning policy in Wales, when you've got technical advice note 1, TAN 3, TAN 5—goodness knows how many TANs—and it does put local communities at a disadvantage when taking on wealthy developers on large schemes. Too many public inquiries or call-in appeals are lost because of the lack of planning and legal advice available, and, too often, schemes get the go-ahead because of very expensive barristers that are available to the developers but not the local community. What steps are you taking to ensure the voices of our community are taken more seriously, and will you consider a planning community contingency fund to allow this legal advice to be more readily available for all? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question. Yes, it absolutely is the case that whilst decision makers have to take into account any relevant view on planning matters that are expressed by local residents and other third parties, local opposition or support for a proposal isn't on its own a reasonable ground for refusing or granting planning permission. Those objections or support have to be based on valid planning considerations, and I think that that is something that members of the public who don't have the background in planning—not many would—sometimes fail to fully be able to grapple with.

That's one of the reasons that we do fund Planning Aid Wales. That's there to support individuals and communities in terms of making their representations to the planning process, so that they're able to turn their valid concerns or valid support into arguments that align with valid planning considerations and are able to be considered in that space. So, I would absolutely recommend Planning Aid Wales to all colleagues. It's a really excellent free resource for communities, so that they're able to be supported in making those representations through the planning process.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Last October I spoke in a Plenary debate on the Member's legislative proposal tabled by Heledd Fychan MS, and particularly relevant is an extension of a quarry that had community objections to it that went through despite that. The Cabinet Secretary has already explained why that can happen, but I think residents weren't helped by the fact that there's a need to strengthen 'Minerals Technical Advice Note (Wales) 1: Aggregates', MTAN 1, which has not been revised since it was first published by the Welsh Government in March 2004. And I think strengthening and updating MTAN 1 would have helped those residents in their opposition and would afford us an opportunity to improve protections through the existing local authority-based planning process for residents who live near quarries where those operations are looking to expand. So, would the Cabinet Secretary be willing to meet with me and other Senedd Members to explore this as an option and see if we can strengthen that process?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm always happy to meet with colleagues on any topic on which they think a conversation would be useful. I would say I do recognise that MTAN 1 was published some time ago, but I think that the principles contained in it are still valid, and it does contain comprehensive planning policy, which is robust, about controlling the impacts of quarrying. And it should be read in conjunction with ‘Planning Policy Wales’, so it shouldn't be kept as a discrete document. ‘Planning Policy Wales’ itself is actually kept under regular review and that sets out the general policies for all mineral development, but of course I'm more than happy to have conversations with colleagues on this issue.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of zonal pricing on electricity prices for consumers in Wales? OQ62476

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The UK Government has committed to work with the Welsh Government to understand how any potential reforms to electricity market arrangements could impact Welsh consumers. As a reserved matter, the UK Government is leading an impact assessment, which will be considered in the decision-making process.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

We're only a few months away from a decision, aren't we? So, we do need clarity on the Welsh Government position, and I'm still not clear, despite the exchange you just had with Luke Fletcher. Do you accept the most independent analysis currently, which suggests that the current proposals, with Wales split into part of three zones, mostly dominated by high-demand English regions, would lead to higher prices in Wales? Do you accept the position of Octopus Energy and others that, if there was a Wales-specific zone, based on the Scottish likely experience, then that would lead to lower prices? You said that you're not convinced by that because of unintended consequences, so can you spell out what those unintended consequences, you believe, are?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, in my discussions with the UK Government, I did make the point, which I know has been made by colleagues, about some of the indicative models that have been shared. UK Government was very keen to impress that those are just some of many models. They haven't decided yet on which particular zonal pricing model would be taken forward, so there's a lot more work that the UK Government is doing at the moment looking at various different options for zonal pricing. We're not going to support zonal pricing that makes things more difficult for Welsh businesses, which makes things more difficult for energy users in the domestic setting. We're very keen that this delivers on what the UK Government wants to do, which is provide a lower cost system for our energy market here in the UK. So, we're working really closely. I can't comment on any particular proposals at the moment, because they simply are just indicative models that are one of many, and there will be other models that the UK Government is looking at. It hasn't fully developed those yet, so we're not able to have those conversations or understand what the consequences might be. But the points that Luke Fletcher has made this afternoon we’ll be absolutely sure to take up with colleagues in the UK Government as potential models that should be looked at, and we're keen, then, to explore what any unintended consequences might be. As I say, I'm keen that this is an ongoing discussion with colleagues, but we're simply not in the position at the moment to take a view on particular models, because they haven't been produced.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, of course residents in mid and north Wales pay the highest standing charges of anywhere across the UK, so that in itself is unfair. But, of course, it's unfair because, very often, people perhaps use very little electricity, or no electricity at all, and still have to pay that standing charge. Now, Ofgem have been running a consultation, of course, on the introduction of a zero standing charge price energy cap variant. The closing date for this consultation is tomorrow, and I suggest that we do need to end this unfairness and the postcode lottery and ensure that people in my constituency and north Wales are not paying well above the price of other people in other parts of the country when it comes to a standing charge. So, can you set out what the Welsh Government's response was or is to that consultation, which is ending tomorrow, and, perhaps, any other conversations you've had with Ofgem and the UK Government regarding this issue?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

It's been the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice who has been leading particularly on this issue, and I know that she'd be happy to update Russell George on the discussions that she's been having. I know this has been an issue that has been debated a great deal in the Senedd. It's something that I know Jack Sargeant was leading on; we've had debates that have been sponsored by him in the Chamber as well. So, it's a long-standing issue that colleagues across the Senedd have been concerned about, so I am pleased that Ofgem is looking at this. As I say, Jane Hutt is leading on this, but I know that she'd be more than happy to provide you with an update.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I just want to go back to the current system that we've got for zonal pricing, where we've got a single national wholesale energy price set every half hour by the most expensive units of energy in the mix—obviously, that's gas—which ties all households to the activities of the fossil fuel companies. So, it seems to me that one of the consequences, whether unintended or not, of the current national system is that it suppresses generation to maintain an artificially high price to satisfy the fossil fuel companies. That seems to me the opposite of what we're supposed to be doing, which is the need to decarbonise swiftly to save the planet and export energy to Germany, for example, which would buy every single unit of electricity that we have. So, I want to understand why we are still having a conversation about the current system, when it's so not fit for purpose, and we need to ensure that we don't have such a system in the future, based, hopefully, on a one price for Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

This is something that the UK Government is leading on, precisely for the same reasons as described, in the sense of the current electricity market being one that was designed for an electricity system that was dominated by dispatchable fossil fuel generation assets. That's not the case anymore, it's not where we want to be, it's not where we're going in the future. The zonal pricing, as I say, is one of those options that is being looked at. The UK Government is also looking at reforming the national pricing arrangements; that's another option that it's looking at at the moment.

But I'm not sure what more I can add today beyond what the UK Government has said in terms of its plans and then those discussions that I've had with Michael Shanks. It really is about, now, the UK Government undertaking those impact assessments, providing some more detailed modelling on what zonal pricing might mean, and then we'll be able to engage in a bit more detail with those impact assessments and the potential models as well. But they have committed to work closely with us and to engage us fully on all those, and we'll take those opportunities, then, to make the cases when those moments arrive.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

5. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about improving mobile phone signal in Monmouthshire? OQ62462

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Officials meet regularly with their counterparts in the UK Government and the mobile industry to discuss improving mobile coverage in Wales, including progress on delivery of the joint UK Government and industry funded shared rural network programme, which includes infrastructure in Monmouthshire.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Llangwm, a small village in Monmouthshire, is now known as the village with no signal, and residents have been suffering from a mobile signal blackspot, which affects their ability to run businesses as well as to conduct simple phone calls, there being no mobile signal for a mile either side of the village. Most concerningly, of course, it presents a danger when residents are looking to contact emergency services, with landlines also dropping out. Historically, there was a mast installed in a nearby village, and the community council and councillors are very keen to have one reinstalled again. Cabinet Secretary, in 2025 no area in Wales should be without a proper mobile signal, so can I please ask that you work alongside the UK Government and mention in those discussions alongside big service providers to try and rectify this potentially dangerous situation and improve mobile signal in Llangwm so that the residents can sleep at night, I suppose? Thank you. Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, I'd be more than happy to have those discussions with both the UK Government and Mobile UK, which brings together the mobile providers, to try and rectify the situation. I know that data from Ofcom's latest 'Connected Nations' report shows that mobile coverage in Monmouthshire is broadly in line with coverage across Wales as a whole, so I think that's positive. But, of course, that's no comfort at all if you live in a community that doesn't have access. So, I'll be happy to ensure that my officials take that up immediately, to try and see what we can do to speed up a resolution for that.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to Laura Anne Jones for raising this issue. Llangwm isn't the only village in Wales without broadband coverage and without mobile coverage, I can assure you; there are towns in my constituency where it is very difficult to make a mobile call, and this 20 years after Blair created Ofcom. At the time, we were told that Ofcom was going to be a fast-moving regulator, able to move with agility and clarity and foresight to be able to deliver for all of our constituents. What we see two decades later, of course, is an inability to make a telephone call on the main street of Ebbw Vale. So, what I would like the Welsh Government to do is to work with Ofcom, with the UK Government, to identify the parts of the country that simply don't have a mobile signal, or a sufficiently strong mobile signal, to complete a telephone call, in order to ensure that all parts of this country have the sort of mobile coverage that we were promised two decades ago.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, this is a matter for the UK Government, but, obviously, we're taking a strong interest in this, so we'll be ensuring that we do have those discussions, reflecting what colleagues have mentioned this afternoon.

I do know that outdoor 4G coverage from all four mobile networks across Wales is 80 per cent, so that's going to be difficult for those communities that don't receive that particular coverage. When listening to Alun Davies, I was thinking of a really innovative proposal that has been taken forward in Powys, which is where the council added some technology to their refuse collection trucks, which was able, then, to go about assessing what the mobile coverage was across the county. So, I thought that that was a particularly innovative way of trying to identify where the problem areas are and then to work alongside the UK Government and Mobile UK to address them. But, clearly, this is an issue that is extremely important to people across Wales, and we will work with the UK Government and Mobile UK.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

6. What steps has the Cabinet Secretary taken to ensure that the tourism and hospitality sector in North Wales is supported and prepared ahead of the spring tourism season? OQ62477

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We support the tourism and hospitality sectors all year round. Visit Wales provides funding for tourism projects and improving local facilities. It also markets Wales as a destination to both consumers and the travel trade. North Wales features in the current 'hwyl' campaign, which has attracted significant media attention.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

As of 2024, 12.8 per cent of enterprises in north Wales were in tourism-related industries, the highest out of all the regions. Tourism is a vital industry that attracts many visitors to destinations such as the wonderful seaside town of Llandudno, gateway to Eryri, Betws-y-Coed, Llanrwst, Conwy and many more. One of the main reasons reported by all of our north Wales self-catering businesses was that customers are struggling with the cost of living. As a result of people having less disposable income, some businesses reported people staying fewer nights. This naturally causes concern for these businesses who have to meet the 182-day occupancy threshold. Does the Cabinet Secretary acknowledge that factors often outside of the control of self-catering businesses will impact the nights of occupancy numbers? And in order to show some support for this vital industry, will you review the decision to stipulate the minimum 182-day occupancy threshold?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I've been looking very closely at the latest Office for National Statistics figures in relation to international passenger travel coming to Wales, and I'm really pleased to see that the figures from January to June 2024 were up 10 per cent on the previous year. So, I think that those things are moving in the right direction. And in-bound spend to Wales reached £203 million, so that was up 7 per cent on the previous year. So, I think that those figures are positive.

I also think that there's a lot that we do on behalf of the industry that the industry isn't necessarily sighted on, because a lot of it is about promoting Wales abroad. So, north Wales, for example, features really heavily in some work that we're doing with major online travel agents to ensure that north Wales is visible to consumers in the United States and Germany. We've even been working with a group called Marketing Manchester in the US, and, actually, that's about using Manchester as a gateway into north Wales. So, we're looking at taking every possible opportunity in terms of marketing Wales to the world.

I mean, I know that we have fundamental differences of opinion in relation to the 182 days, and I know that some colleagues have asked Welsh Government to review that. I think the view of the Welsh Government is very much that this is relatively new. We still don't know what the impact is because the Valuation Office Agency looks at occupancy rates on a two-year rolling programme, so we don't actually know what the impact has been just yet. And for that reason, the Cabinet Secretary for finance is really keen that the industry is focused on meeting the 182 days or considering what options are available, rather than considering what they might say in the event of a review of the 182 days, because he thinks that would be an unhelpful distraction from the work that's currently going on.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

7. What is the Government doing to improve broadband connectivity in rural communities? OQ62479

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Responsibility for improving broadband rests with the UK Government. However, we have a strong track record of supporting rural communities to access fast, reliable broadband. Our most recent intervention brought full-fibre broadband to more than 44,000 premises and our grant scheme has provided a much-needed safety net.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Well, you will, of course, remember storm Darragh and the detrimental impact of that storm on a number of our communities. The storm led to thousands of households and businesses losing phone connections and internet connections. Amongst them was Llwyndyrys, which lost its phone lines and Wi-Fi for over three days. Since then, that particular community has reviewed the infrastructure and has found that the cables that run along poles are in a very fragile state: they are woven through the branches of trees at the roadside. The danger is that when the next storm comes, these cables will break because of the fact that they are interwoven with tree branches, but, clearly, it's almost important to go out to fix the cables in the middle of a storm. So, it would be much better to do the safeguarding and preparatory work ahead of any storm, and that's true, of course, in communities across Wales. Will you, therefore, speak to Openreach to ensure that they are doing this safeguarding work over the summer months to avoid problems when the storm season comes in autumn?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. It's a really important point in terms of readiness for future incidents of bad weather, so I'd be more than happy for my officials to have those discussions with Openreach in terms of what their plans are to make sure that they fix the roof while the sun is shining over the summer.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

8. What support is the Welsh Government making available to Cardiff Airport? OQ62474

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The most recent support the Welsh Government provided to Cardiff Airport was £42.6 million in rescue and restructuring grant funding, awarded in March 2021. The airport has now claimed the grant in full. Details of our investment in the airport to date can be found on the Welsh Government website.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I think we all know that there is potential for Cardiff Airport, but it's hardly the jewel in the crown yet. It hasn't seemed to improve much since it was acquired by your Government in 2013. But last summer, the Welsh Government announced a funding package of £205 million over the next decade for the airport, much to the concern of the likes of Bristol Airport and Birmingham and other airports, due to the damage that could happen to them. Now, whilst positive investment has to be welcomed, I think there's a valid concern as to where the money has come from. And I know that representations have been made to the Competition and Markets Authority, leading to many strong observations from the subsidy advice unit. Now, clearly, the private sector should be utilised to attract greater investment and growth to the airport, which would, in turn, free up more taxpayers' money to be spent on other areas in Wales that desperately need it. So, Cabinet Secretary, at a time when Government finances are already stretched, can I ask what steps are being taken by the Welsh Government to source outside private investment before such huge amounts of public money are funnelled into the airport once again?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I'm grateful for the question. The Competition and Markets Authority assessment of our proposed long-term investment in Cardiff Airport was published on 2 October. Colleagues will recall that I issued a written statement in response to that. So, I'm not going to be able to comment any more this afternoon because, as I set out in that written statement, we are taking the time that we need to give full consideration to the assessment of the CMA, and we remain open to refining our proposed programme of investment on the basis of that assessment, but I'm really keen to update colleagues as soon as we are able to, once we have decided on the best way forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is from Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of the new GP contract on primary health services in Blaenau Gwent? OQ62471

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The general medical services contract agreement, which I announced in January and which will apply in Blaenau Gwent as elsewhere, has resulted in investment by the Welsh Government of over £52 million into GP services this year, which is the single biggest annual investment since the pandemic.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response, and very much welcome both the new contract and the investment that the Welsh Government is making in primary healthcare services. But one of the more shocking aspects of the recent eHarley Street fiasco was the fact that both the Welsh Government and the health board made the point that, despite all of the service failures we'd seen with eHarley Street, the contract hadn't been breached. Now, that tells me not that eHarley Street were delivering good services, because we know they weren't, but that the contract isn't fit for purpose.

So, my question to you this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary, is twofold. First of all, can we ensure that the contract is fit for purpose and does guarantee basic primary care services for everybody who's a patient at a particular practice and in a particular area? But, secondly, it also tells me that the model that we've relied upon since Aneurin Bevan established the national health service, the independent practitioner, is no longer fit for purpose itself. It can no longer guarantee comprehensive access to primary care services across the face of the country, and that's been my experience the whole time I've been a Member here. So, will the Welsh Government look at those two aspects of the contract? First of all, guaranteeing minimum services to ensure that where we do have service failure, as we saw with eHarley Street, that that can be demonstrated, a breach of contract. And secondly, to look at a new model for primary care, so where the independent practitioner service doesn't exist or doesn't deliver the care we need, that there is an option with the Welsh Government and health boards to actually deliver primary care in a different way.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm grateful to the Member for raising these matters in the Chamber, as he has with me previously and outside the Chamber as well. I hope I can give him some assurance in my answer today. He knows, obviously, that health boards are responsible for managing the GMS contract with their practices, but the Welsh Government's role is, alongside that, to make sure the contract delivers what we want it to do.

Two years ago, we introduced a unified contract, as he will know, and alongside that a contract assurance framework to guide health boards in how they manage those contracts. And, to be clear, I expect a thorough process of due diligence to be carried out, and obviously for health boards to monitor the provision of those services through those established procedures. There are mandatory standards around the expectations of practices in place, but I have asked officials to look at the generally used contract processes, and that contract assurance framework that we put in place in 2023 to guide health boards in managing those contracts, to ensure that health boards have the levers they need to ensure the quality of the service that we want provided by practices. I don't want any unintended consequences from the way that the regulations are written, and I would want any areas that we might need to revisit in light of this experience to be looked at as soon as possible.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, it's very good news that the new GP contract has the support of GPs, but may I reiterate the concerns that the Member for Blaenau Gwent has already outlined? I would also say: the original contract was overwhelmingly rejected by GPs back in December, after that negotiation resumed and a new contract was brought forward, the British Medical Association says that it doubled the initial investment provided in the original offer. These contracts have a huge impact on primary care provision and retention and recruitment in Blaenau Gwent, but, for some reason, the Government held back half the investment that they could have given back in December, until GPs rejected that initial offering. I'm just wondering: why is that?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member will recall that we had the election of a Government in Westminster more inclined to invest in public services. It's a simple matter of mathematics, I'm afraid, which should be obvious to the Member. And so, with that additional funding, we were able to bring further funding to the negotiation. But in addition to that funding, we were also able to negotiate with the BMA additional things that GPs would be able to deliver for us in return for that funding. So, one of the key things that we've been able to agree relates to the NHS app, so we can speed up the roll-out of an app, which will help patients, but also will end up helping GP practices as well.

So, I'm really pleased that we were able to find a way of resolving the discussions with GPs in a way that works both for Government, but for patients, critically, and for general practitioners. And one of the opportunities that we have in the months ahead, which answers the second point that Alun Davies put to me, is how we can work with GPs to develop a model across clusters that is more resilient, that has more secure foundations, so that we can provide more services in a community setting, which will benefit patients in not having to travel to hospital for diagnostics and so on, but will also benefit GP practices as well.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I wanted to ask you some similar questions to what Alun had asked about failures in GPs contracts locally that were highlighted by that fiasco. The private company, eHarley Street, may have given up the contracts for a number of GP practices in Blaenau Gwent, and indeed the Rhymney valley, but patients are still left in limbo. We know of some practices where the health board will be taking over the management of services from 1 April—that effects Bryntirion in Bargoed, for example—but at others enhanced monitoring is apparently going on. Patients though are still finding it difficult to get appointments, staff aren't getting the support they need, and many doctors, who were left being owed thousands of pounds by the company for shifts that they were never paid for, are still awaiting their money.

So, what discussions are you having, please, with the health board to ensure the necessary support is put in place to solve all of those issues, because this has been dragging on for such a long time? Even though it's not attracting the headlines anymore, it is still affecting people's lives.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That work, as I have reported on previously in the Chamber, is work that is subject to continuous ongoing monitoring now between the health board and the practices. As of 1 March, Brynmawr, Aberbeeg and Blaenavon medical practices are now being directly managed by the health board, and as the Member correctly says, from 1 April, that will apply to Bryntirion and Tredegar medical practice as well. Where there are matters that still require resolution, those will need to be pursued in the way they are currently by the health board.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact the new system for emergency response will have on stroke care? OQ62467

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

One of the reasons for the change in our performance framework is that the existing approach is encouraging a use of resources that doesn't work equitably. The changes to be delivered by the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust are intended to improve experience and outcomes for all service users, including those with stroke symptoms.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We already know that stroke patients are at a disadvantage in getting emergency treatment. The research shows that patients wait on average an hour and a half between the first onset of symptoms and dialling 999. After an ambulance is requested, it can take many hours for an emergency response to arrive. While every stroke is different, recovery depends on early intervention. Without early care, the likelihood of lifelong disabilities increases. Not only does this have a huge impact on the individual and their families, but it also means that the NHS has to provide long-term support. From a purely financial point of view, it makes sense to provide early intervention, to say nothing of the moral and ethical imperatives. Cabinet Secretary, what consideration have you given to the creation of specialist stroke first responders in order to provide care while waiting for an ambulance?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you, Altaf Hussain, for that question. As he may recall from the discussion we had in the Chamber last week, under the current arrangements around 34 per cent of those people in the red calls who have breathing difficulties end up not being transported to hospital, whereas we know people in stroke absolutely do need specialist care in the way that he was alluding. So, that is actually very much at the heart of the changes that have been introduced. The group of clinicians and system leaders who helped formulate that new approach as part of the review took evidence both from the national clinical lead for stroke and the Stroke Association, to help shape the context for their discussions. He will maybe recall that, in my statement last week on the changes that are coming in in July for the red category, I said that I've asked for a rapid review of the amber category as well, over the course of the next two months, so before the new clinical model comes into place, so that the conclusions of that review, which will affect stroke patients and those suffering from suspected stroke, can be taken into account in advance of the new clinical model, which is due to come into place later this year.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. First of all, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, as you will know, studies have shown alarming rates of stress, depression and anxiety amongst the farming community. You will be well aware that, as a profession, it has some of the highest suicide rates in the country. It is an often brutal job, fuelled by isolation, long hours and harsh working conditions. Yet not only do our farmers have to contend with these conditions, they also have to deal with the almost never-ending conveyor belt of anti-rural and anti-farming legislation coming from your Labour Government. Not only has the Welsh Government cut the rural affairs budget by over 30 per cent in real terms, then doubled down on this with further cash cuts to the tune of £37.5 million, it has also taken away the ability of farmers to manage their land properly, has tried to blackmail them into giving up their land in return for financial subsidies, and you now fully support the UK Government's ruthless changes to agricultural property relief. I would argue that the Labour Party, both here in the Senedd and at Westminster, are fuelling the mental health crisis that is affecting the farming community. So, Minister, when will the Labour Party realise that pushing farmers to the brink of financial ruin and their own mental health collapse is not only going against your own legislation for improved health and well-being for future generations, but it's also risking the collapse of the rural economy and our food security? Thank you.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much, Joel James, for that very comprehensive question, covering many parts of different portfolios. But when it comes to my own portfolio, as the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, I want to say to all farmers out there that improving mental health and well-being continues to be a priority for the Welsh Government. We know that farmers face many challenges, including, as you mentioned, the uncertainty, isolation and loneliness, which can have a detrimental impact on their mental well-being. I met with many charities who are working in this space and receive funding from the Welsh Government at the Royal Welsh Show last year, and I intend to do the same again this year. It's very important, as it is with every part of my portfolio, to listen to people who have lived experience.

It is also essential that we do all we can to raise awareness of the importance of maintaining mental health, and physical health as well, supporting the help available and how to reach it. And I strongly encourage anyone experiencing stress or mental health issues to ask for help. The Welsh Government supports several important activities to aid mental health in rural communities, and this includes the Wales farm support group, which brings together farming charities to share knowledge and expertise.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. The tourism industry in Wales is extremely worried about the recent changes the Welsh Government have made with the introduction of a tourist tax. Although it may be considered by supporters to be a relatively small amount, actually it has a huge negative impact. It turns away potential customers, and it also makes it difficult for businesses to plan for the future, because they simply don't know how customers will react. The arbitrary 182-day minimum for self-catering letting is also a huge worry.

A recent survey by the Professional Association of Self Caterers has shown that 95 per cent of self-catering property owners now feel considerably more stressed about the profitability of their business in the future, and only 26 per cent of operators in Wales feel that they will hit the 182-day threshold this year. Reports from PASC regarding the mental health of operators makes for some difficult reading. Instead of business owners enjoying a happy and productive life, they are now suffering nervous breakdowns, living with constant worry about their bills, and they live with a blanket of anxiety and depression constantly over them, as they fear losing their businesses.

Minister, the Labour Party are directly responsible for this arbitrary 182-day minimum let target, and directly responsible for the detrimental health impact it is having on operators. What are you going to do about it?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, again, this is not my portfolio, the tourism levy. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be able to answer directly to that, other than to say, as I do with every policy that we introduce across the Welsh Government, that we do thorough consultations with our stakeholders, with people with lived experience, and that we take into account what people say. I would also say that, once again, we are absolutely committed to supporting people’s mental health and well-being across Wales. If anybody is in distress, please reach out to the services that are available.

I would also just like to mention something that is important to my portfolio, which is that we have two mental health strategies that are coming out in the next few months. The first one is going to be the suicide prevention and self-harm strategy. The crux of that, and the most important fundamental part of that, is the understanding and listening to people. Actually, this is something that’s very important to those parts of the rural community that you’re referring to. Then we’ll also have the mental health and well-being strategy, which is going to make it much easier for people to have that single-session conversation with somebody exactly when they need it.

So, these are the things that Welsh Labour, myself and the Welsh Government are focusing on to improve people’s access to the mental health support that they need when they need it.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. Hopefully you'll be able to answer my next question. As you know, Wes Streeting, Labour’s health Secretary at Westminster, believes that mental health conditions have been overdiagnosed. Do you agree with this, or will you join me in condemning such ignorant remarks?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Another political hit here, Joel, but I will answer it. I think that there's a huge awareness growing around mental health issues. I think that people need the support and the listening when they need it—no wrong door. I will also say, though, that I listen to many people, as I've already mentioned multiple times, who have lived experience. It's not always helpful to have a diagnosis and a label, and I think that when you see my mental health strategies, you'll see that that's very clearly come through in the co-production and the working across Government that we have done on this.

Ultimately, people just want to be able to see somebody when they want to see them, and it's not necessarily about the diagnosis. I don't think that people are being overdiagnosed with mental health conditions; I just think that people need more support, and I think that when they go and see somebody, they don't want to be put on a waiting list to have a conversation with somebody—they need that initial conversation and then to be signposted. I think that mental health can be very complex, but I also think it's a life-course approach—as we do with many of our policies across the Welsh Government. I think it's really important that we accept that you can have issues with your mental health and that you can recover, you can have issues with your physical health and you can recover, and both of them are often intertwined. So, that's what I would say in response to your question directly. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. This month is Brain Tumour Awareness Month. I'd like to pay tribute to Brain Tumour Research for their sterling work in this area and for their highly informative stall in Y Farchnad yesterday. They rightly highlighted that brain tumours are the biggest cancer killer of children and adults under the age of 40 and that research into these conditions is underfunded and suffers from a lack of policy prioritisation more generally.

This is especially apparent when it comes to accessing clinical trials in Wales, which can provide a vital source of hope for patients. Part of the problem simply relates to the acute paucity of trials based here in Wales, resulting in those who have the means travelling, often long distances, to participate in trials. This is compounded by low public awareness of the few trials that are held here, despite a strong appetite amongst patients to participate.

Could you explain, Cabinet Secretary, whether the Welsh Government has a strategy to boost clinical trials held in Wales? What are you doing in terms of outreach work to enhance awareness in the meantime? Would establishing a one-stop digital portal where patients can access the availability of such trials and register their interest in good time be an option worth exploring?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member asks an important question. On a recent visit that I was able to make with Julie Morgan to the Velindre Cancer Centre, I was able to discuss with them the work that they do in relation to trials in Wales, but also participating and leading on trials that have an impact across the UK and indeed globally. It is important that we’re able to make sure that we bring all our resources as a health service in Wales to bear to support trials and to lead those trials whenever we possibly can do that.

The Welsh Government, via Health and Care Research Wales, does already facilitate research trial options for individuals in Wales in a range of areas. There is, in fact, a Health and Care Research Wales delivery hub that provides national-level support so that we can set up effectively studies so they provide opportunities for patients to take part and to do that as quickly as possible. The hub also provides a horizon-scanning function for all studies that are open across the UK, because where there are conditions that may not be particularly common, those trials may be in other parts of the UK.

I think that joined-up approach is really important, making sure that Wales is playing its part in making sure trials are provided and led from Wales, whenever we can do that, whenever we’ve got the expertise and skill set to do that, but also making sure that UK-wide set of trials is accessible is obviously important.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

The availability of specialist services is another area where rare and less survivable cancer patients in Wales are particularly disadvantaged. The All Wales Medical Genomics Service actually predates devolution, having been established in 1987, but it remains considerably underpowered compared to equivalent services in England. For example, the service here in Wales lacks a next-generation tumour sequencing service, which can test for several thousand mutations within each tumour, rather than the mere dozens that the existing technological capacity can manage. Moreover, as of the end of January, there was no set pathway to refer Welsh patients to Genomics England for more advanced treatment, despite ambitions to have one in place by Christmas of last year.

In fairness, the Cabinet Secretary has previously mentioned the Welsh Government intends to introduce a next-generation service in Wales to plug this gap. So, could he provide an update on when it is likely to be operational? And in the meantime, could he confirm whether there will be a bespoke pathway put in place to expedite referrals to Genomics England until a Welsh service is established?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Actually, I think that genomics is an area where Wales has a very, very good track record in terms both of investment and of delivery. I think that would be a fair assessment, which I think genomics facilities in all parts of the UK would recognise. It is really important that we’re able to continue the progress that we’ve made. Genomic research and the application of research offers opportunities for faster and for more accurate diagnoses and treatments for individual patients as well. The Canolfan Iechyd Genomig Cymru, which was opened in 2023, which was funded by the Welsh Government, does provide a state-of-the-art facility for NHS Wales to work with industrial partners, which is quite often where the research is most successful, that joint collaborative research, and it’s also actually a very welcoming environment for patients. I think there is a range of ways in which the genomics offer in Wales is already very strong. Clearly, as the Member mentions, there is more that we plan to do, and that work is under way.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response. It’s regrettable that we haven’t had a date as yet as to when the Welsh Government intends to introduce that next-generation genomics service, but we await and 'Watch this space', I presume, is the message.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Unfortunately, children are even more disadvantaged when it comes to cancer. Whilst cancer amongst adults is generally caused by environmental factors, cancer amongst children is mainly unusual, or they have less chance of survival. But because of an absence of specialist services here in Wales, almost three quarters of patients have to travel outside Wales for at least some of their treatment, with some having to go into debt in order to afford travel costs and accommodation costs.

In addition to this, an Audit Wales report has emphasised that the Government's cancer improvement plan is insufficient because of the lack of consideration for the needs of children and young people. This is a reflection of a broader trend where children suffer comparatively worse outcomes than adults in engaging with the health service, particularly in terms of waiting lists. One of the main duties of society is to protect future generations, and, at the moment, Wales is falling short in that regard. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary to consider establishing a fund in order to support the travel and accommodation costs of young cancer patients who have to travel outside Wales for treatment, and to explain whether he believes that we need to develop a specific cancer strategy for children and young people in Wales, as is already in place in Scotland?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for another important question. In terms of the question of a specific strategy, I think that that is something that is led clinically, as a decision for clinicians. My personal view is that it’s not a lack of strategies that we have when it comes to cancer, and we have to ensure that there is better alignment in terms of all of the activity on cancer amongst children, and cancer more generally too. I think it’s inevitable on one level that there is an element of travel, as the Member acknowledges, where some forms of cancer are rarer. People travel from afar, including from England, to come to Wales for some treatments too. So, that relationship is an established one. I would like to see more being done locally, of course, but an element of that travel is inevitable.

He referred to the Audit Wales report in this regard, and I have made a statement as a result of that, accepting that we need to ensure that there is clearer guidance, in terms of the work of the executive, to ensure that the demands of the system are clearer. That work is now in train, and also the leadership board I’ve established across all of the programmes, to ensure that they collaborate more effectively as well.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

3. How is the Welsh Government improving healthcare capacity in north Wales? OQ62470

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Health boards are responsible for planning and delivering services to ensure there is sufficient capacity to meet the needs of the communities that they serve. In doing so, they'll need to consider a range of options to make best use of the available resources.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

As you will know, Cabinet Secretary, unfortunately the capacity of the health service in north Wales isn’t right, and that is why many patients do not get the level of service that they deserve, particularly in terms of our emergency department at Glan Clwyd Hospital in Bodelwyddan. I know that this is a concern for you and the Welsh Government too. Now, one of the solutions that was proposed, over 12 years ago now, by the Welsh Government was the establishment of a brand new hospital in Rhyl, in order to take pressure off Glan Clwyd Hospital by having extra bed capacity and a new minor injuries unit. I understand that some progress is being made towards that, but one major concern about the progress being made is that the number of beds in the new facility has been drastically reduced from that which was originally envisaged, and this is in spite of the fact that the performance of Glan Clwyd Hospital, particularly in its emergency department, has further deteriorated over that 12-year period. Why is the Welsh Government supporting a proposal that is less ambitious, given that the pressures are more acute?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the question of capacity is important, and I think, in terms of the broad point which the Member makes, I’m sure the health board would recognise some of the challenges around capacity to which he is referring in his question. We’ve provided particular funds in order to tackle capacity challenges in a range of areas—so, a range of planned care areas, diagnostics, but also, specifically, in the way that his question was focused, in relation to reducing pressure on emergency departments as well. There has been progress, I think it’s fair to acknowledge, in relation to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Nobody would think that there isn’t further to go; clearly there is. But I think it’s important to acknowledge that there has been progress there.

In relation to the other proposal that he is referring to, that proposal is, at this point, being developed. So, I’m not in a position to comment on the detail of it, because we aren’t at that point in the process. But I’m confident that the health board will be putting together a proposal that reflects the current needs across north Wales and manages the pressures of demand on the one hand and resourcing on the other. And we will have a constructive discussion with the health board both about the proposal and how it’s taken forward quickly.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

4. How is the Welsh Government supporting health boards to ensure the 62-day suspected cancer pathway target is consistently met across Wales? OQ62466

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Improving cancer outcomes and reducing cancer waiting times is a priority for this Government. We are investing in cancer services and working with the health boards, supported by the NHS executive, to drive sustainable improvement for cancer waiting times, through implementation of the national optimum pathways.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for the response, Cabinet Secretary. I was contacted by a constituent who had received a devastating diagnosis of breast cancer. My constituent, having waited a total of 107 days for treatment, as opposed to the 62 intended under the suspected cancer pathway target, then discovered that she would need a mastectomy. She’s unsure to this day whether this might have been avoided had the target time been met. But after that incredibly mentally and physically challenging surgery, she was then told she’d suffered nerve damage as a result of the surgery and is now on another waiting list with an expected wait of two years for a second operation. When my constituent asked Swansea Bay University Health Board why she had had to wait 107 days rather than the target 62, she was told that it was down to, and I quote, bank holidays'. I’m sure you’ll agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that that is a completely unacceptable response and a devastating situation for my constituent. Cancer doesn’t take bank holidays. So, how is the Welsh Government ensuring that all health boards are meeting that 62-day target, rather than hiding behind lame excuses, because lives are on the line?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I’m sorry to hear about the experience that your constituent has had. Clearly, that is not good enough. I’m not in a position to comment on the response from the health board, because I don’t know the context to what was said. What I know is that, in relation to breast cancer specifically, four health boards achieved the cancer waiting time target, including Swansea bay health board, which achieved a performance of over 80 per cent. Of course, we would want to see that even higher, but that is the situation at the moment. We have a national programme, which is supported by the NHS executive, to work with health boards and NHS trusts to recover cancer waiting time performance for the five cancers with the lowest performance rates.

I would say that, in relation to breast cancer, there is, in parts of Wales, an extremely strong track record, where health boards have been able to develop one-stop-shop approaches, and parts of his region will be served by such a facility. And we know that, in those areas it’s a much better experience for patients, because it’s a faster experience, frankly, but also it enables the health board to reach much, much higher levels of compliance, as much as 89 or 90 per cent, with the target. So, it’s more of that innovation in service delivery that we want to see, to make sure that women, like your constituent, don’t have to have that experience.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Rare cancers are less frequently diagnosed, but collectively they account for almost one in every five of all cancer diagnoses each year, and include gynaecological cancers, and some of the less survivable cancers, such as stomach and oesophageal cancers and blood cancers. The earlier diagnosis of these rare cancers will be critical to meeting the 62-day waiting time target. Last Friday, the Rare Cancers Bill, a private Member’s Bill, progressed through its Second Reading in the UK Parliament, and it hopes to make provision to incentivise research and investment into the treatment of rare types of cancer and for connected purposes. And so, while the focus of the Bill is England, its effects may be felt here in Wales, as so many patients do travel to England for their cancer treatment, as was mentioned earlier in discussion. So, has the Welsh Government given any consideration to the effects and the consequences for Wales if this Bill does become law?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you for that important question. The Rare Cancers Bill was introduced, of course, as a private Member’s Bill, but the UK Government has confirmed its support for the legislation, as the Member obviously knows. A date for Committee Stage will be confirmed; it hasn’t yet been allocated. There has been correspondence between us—between the two Governments—in relation to the Bill, and there have been discussions at official level with Department for Health and Social Care counterparts on the potential implications and opportunities that might arise in the Bill. There is support for improving research into rare types of cancer here in Wales. We’ve agreed that officials will work closely to make sure there is a co-ordination and a join-up across the UK in relation to the objectives of the Bill.

I mentioned in my answer to Mabon ap Gwynfor the work of the Health and Care Research Wales delivery hub, but it’s also perhaps worth noting in the context of rare cancers specifically that Health and Care Research Wales has also recently appointed a research speciality lead for rare diseases, and their role is to increase and accelerate, frankly, the uptake of research across NHS Wales for rare diseases, including cancers.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you to Tom Giffard for raising this question, but, unfortunately, there are far too many examples of constituents not receiving treatment within 62 days—the expected target. Tom referred to a constituent in his area, and I literally have just received a message from a constituent from the Dinas Mawddwy area who received a lung cancer diagnosis back in November. She continues to wait for treatment and she was told that the next step will be radiotherapy, but there is a problem with the boundaries. She understood that she would have to travel down to Singleton in Swansea from Dinas Mawddwy, but then that that wouldn't be possible because she lived in the Betsi Cadwaladr region. Her life is literally on the line, with the cancer perhaps growing and spreading while the health boards argue over who should take responsibility for her treatment because of where she lives. This is true of a number of patients. Now, the Cabinet Secretary has said previously that the Government has tackled the postcode lottery, but it is clear that that isn't the case, and patients are still suffering as a result. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that the situation facing my constituent is acceptable, and what steps are being taken to prevent this from happening?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm not in a position to make specific comments on the position of the constituent. The situation doesn't sound acceptable from his description. If he could send me a letter with details, I would be happy to look into that.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve waiting times in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OQ62456

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has supported the health board to make improvements in waiting times with additional finance, direct intervention and support from the NHS executive. Improvements across planned care and children and adolescent mental health services in particular were recognised in the escalation announcement, which I made last week.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you may be aware that there has been a twelvefold increase in the number of children waiting more than a year for an autism assessment in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area. Indeed, over 1,000 children are waiting for a diagnosis in Pembrokeshire, and, as you know, while those children are waiting for a diagnosis, they are without the right support. Now, I was told, when my autism Bill was rejected by your party, that it wasn't required because measures were being brought in to improve things anyway. Clearly, that hasn't happened, and if my Bill had succeeded, then perhaps we wouldn't be in this position today. So, Cabinet Secretary, what urgent action is being given to Hywel Dda University Health Board to specifically target waiting lists for an autism diagnosis? And, in the meantime, what support are you offering families and local charities in the area so that some support is available for children and their families whilst they wait?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that question. I recall the discussions around the Bill, and there was a good debate about whether we felt it would have achieved the objectives that were set. The point that he makes in this his question—[Interruption.] The point that he makes in his question is an important point—[Interruption.] The point he makes—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can we avoid conversations across the Chamber, please? Let the Minister answer.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm seeking to do justice to the Member's question. He will know that to my colleague the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being has announced a programme of support to reduce the waiting times for young people in relation to a range of diagnoses, including of autism. That has funding attached to it and it will benefit those waiting the longest. There is absolutely a recognition that that funding on its own will not meet the scale of the challenge in the system, including in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area. Alongside that, there needs to be a transformation of assessment and diagnosis more broadly. There is work under way. There was, I think, a very helpful summit at the end of last year around redesigning pathways to support assessment and diagnosis, and so, as those are able to be rolled out, we are confident that, across the system, there will be an improvement in waiting times. In the meantime, that funding is there to reduce the longest waits, and I hope that will benefit his constituents as it will other parts of Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Question 6 [OQ62464] has been withdrawn. Question 7, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

7. What is the Welsh Government doing to reduce waiting times for patients requiring orthopaedic surgery in south-east Wales? OQ62473

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Improving access to healthcare and reducing waiting times is a priority for this Government. Health boards across south-east Wales are working hard to deliver good-quality and timely services, and we are taking clear and decisive action to reduce all waiting times, including orthopaedics.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It's good to hear that it's a priority. Knee and hip replacements have been a constant issue for my constituents and I'm sure most Members here have had it raised with them. The wait from GP to clinician takes far too long, and that is even before the patient can join the waiting list, meaning that typically people are waiting up to three years before getting a knee or hip replacement, and this is devastating for them. Sadly, though, even after this wait, people are being called for operations only to have them cancelled the morning of the operation. One constituent I have has had this happen three times and, of course, she had to put arrangements in place for care and had to cancel. And that's constantly happening. We've heard this a few times. So, what action is the Welsh Government therefore taking to ensure that people do not have to suffer like this for years and face the emotional distress of last-minute cancellations?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, people should not have to wait in pain for a long time to have their orthopaedic surgery. I absolutely agree with that. I would say that, in the south-east in particular, we've seen a 73 per cent reduction in the over two-year orthopaedic rates from its peak. But, clearly, that is a start; we need to go much further. And significant additional funding has been provided to the south-east region in relation to its longest waits, and that will support those patients waiting for orthopaedic surgery. I think that he's right to say that we need to make sure that there is a consistency in the offer, if you like, to patients. He will maybe recall from previous discussions in the Chamber that the planning guidance that I issued to the NHS before Christmas has very specific requirements in relation to orthopaedic targets, the numbers of procedures on a list, to ensure consistency across the piece. There is a very, very well established Getting It Right First Time-driven approach to efficiency in orthopaedic surgery, and we have to see that delivered consistently in all parts of Wales. There is far too much variation between practitioners and between sites.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I would like to ask about knee and hip replacement waiting times in the Aneurin Bevan health board area, Cabinet Secretary, and particularly on the transparency and clarity of information. So, on the NHS 111 Wales planned care website, with regard to trauma and orthopaedics at Aneurin Bevan, it tells us that the average wait time for a first out-patient appointment is 26 weeks; that 10 per cent of people are waiting 61 weeks or more—this is for a first out-patient appointment; the average waiting time to start treatment is 33 weeks; and 10 per cent of people are waiting 85 weeks or more. So, it doesn't break information down by type of surgery, and I think it would be much more helpful for patients and their families in terms of being able to plan and get on with their lives and knowing what to expect if they could, for example, with regard to a hip replacement, go on the website and find out, in terms of patients receiving hip replacements this week, when they were referred—how many weeks ago they were referred for treatment. I just think that, in terms of transparency and usefulness of information, we could do much better than what is currently on offer.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank John Griffiths for that question. I agree with him, we can do better. I don't think it is good enough that it's just provided on a health board average basis. The information by specialty is generally provided, but the level of detail that he refers to is, of course, available to individual health boards. They have that information, which they can make available. I hope it gives him some reassurance to know that, in April, we'll be issuing refreshed guidance to the health boards for them to provide more detail on expected waits in their acceptance letters on an individualised basis, or to be able to signpost to web pages that have more detail in the way that he's describing on expected waits. They will then be able to tell patients their average waits by condition, such as knee surgery or hip surgery. This, obviously, will vary by health board and by complexity, so the information needs to come from health boards. But that information will be refreshed in the new guidance in April, and health boards should then be putting this level of detail on their own website and sharing that as well with GP partners.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of home-to-hospital transport provided by the Welsh Ambulance Service NHS Trust being cancelled at short notice for patients needing to attend hospital appointments? OQ62478

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There are times when a smallish number of non-emergency patient transport service journeys can't be accommodated. The service completed in excess of an astonishing 500,000 journeys to and from hospitals and clinics across Wales and the wider UK last year.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. I apologise to my constituents having to raise this matter again with you, having raised it previously with your predecessor.

Now, according to the trust’s latest published annual report, the non-emergency patient transport service’s ambulatory transport performance has improved and been stable, as you’ve rightly pointed out. Increases in demand, in particular for renal patients, does impact on the amount of available resource for out-patient activity. The centre was to be re-rostered during 2024-25, which is expected to help with the increased demand, along with an ability to reconsider the performance metrics around how rosters are designed. However, on a regular basis now, Cabinet Secretary, I have constituents contact me advising that, at the very last minute, their non-emergency transport service has been cancelled. This leaves highly vulnerable and unwell residents frantically trying to find another way to reach their appointment. But also, too, it leaves the consultant often waiting for the patient who then doesn’t turn up, and they get told that they’ve failed an appointment. This cannot be right.

So, what steps can you take to work with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to at least see better communication, and just try and ensure that when someone has prepared themselves, an elderly person, ready for an appointment, to go for treatment or diagnosis, they’re not let down so badly in this way. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think it is reasonable to say that there are sometimes unexpected changes that—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

This is happening a lot.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There are sometimes unexpected changes that would lead to cancellation at short notice. I think it’s also fair to say that this mostly happens when resources are having to be redirected where there is a more urgent demand elsewhere, and that’s often emergency ambulance service responses. Where there are consultations, the provision of transport is prioritised to those patients with the highest level of needs, so as she mentioned, renal patients, but also cancer patients when they’re travelling for life-sustaining treatments. WAST aims to give patients at least 24 hours' notice wherever they can and to try and provide support in terms of signposting to other providers, perhaps community transport providers. I think it’s important to bear in mind that out of the 0.5 million—500,000—journeys that are made each year, on a monthly basis, last year, the average number of cancellations that came from the service itself was running at around 600 a month, out of 500,000 patient journeys. Last year, more than 70,000 journeys, so almost 10 times as many, were cancelled on the day of travel by patients themselves. Now, the consequence of that is that that really does cause challenges in terms of rostering, so it’s a more complex picture, I think, than perhaps the question suggests, although I recognise it’s a question in good faith.

She asked about what’s happening to try and address some of these challenges. There’s a demand and capacity review under way this year. That will be completed later this year, 2025, and the expectation is that that will help to deliver some additional capacity to reflect the growth in patient volumes as the planned care activity increases across the system following our investment.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, question 9, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

9. How is the Welsh Government ensuring rural GP practices are funded adequately to ensure that everyone in Wales lives within a reasonable distance of a GP practice? OQ62459

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I am of course aware of the challenges of delivering GP services to a dispersed rural patient population. Rurality is taken into account as part of the funding formula for practices, and our investment in multidisciplinary teams helps to support access to a wider group of health professionals, including nurses and pharmacists, to ensure care closer to home.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, you will know that some medical practices have more than one surgery location because they're trying to provide services to a very large geographical area, and that does bring an additional cost with it. Some rural practices are reporting to me that they can no longer run their practices viably under this existing model. So, I'm concerned that some practices may hand their contracts back to the health board, which, of course, would, in turn, bring additional concerns and costs. Now, when I raised this with you in a letter last month, you did respond to me about the additional funding the Welsh Government has provided to general practice. But I don't think your response really recognised the issue of rural practices. Funding models, I think, need to better recognise the distinct challenges of providing care rurally and allocate additional funding resources to support the higher costs of the complexities of running a surgery on split sites where there are no other medical services nearby as well in a very large geographical area. So, can you set out why this isn't adequately reflected in the funding formula and what plans do you have to address this?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As I say, it is reflected in the funding formula. Rurality is one of a set of criteria; it isn't, obviously, the only criterion that is used to weight funding through the general medical services contract. He will also be aware that recognising some of the cost pressures on GP practices, both rural and otherwise, at the moment is part of the settlement of the funding—the contract negotiations, rather, this year, including a £23 million stabilisation payment to enable GP practices to address some of the additional cost pressures. Obviously, for rural practices, that will go to support some of the particular challenges that they face and that I acknowledge in the Member's question. I think part of the solution, as well, lies in the point I was making in response to Alun Davies's question earlier, which is delivering more services on a cluster footing, so to provide a greater resilience, if you like, and more flexibility for those practices, as he describes, which are sometimes providing services for more than one location. That would benefit the resilience of those practices, but also benefit his constituents and mine who are having to travel further than we would like to get some of the services that they need.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 is next. There is one topical question that has been accepted, and the question will be asked by Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact that the UK Government's reforms to welfare will have on Wales? TQ1317

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for your question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Welsh Government will carefully consider the implications of proposed welfare reforms and respond to the consultation on the Green Paper to ensure that the voices of disabled people in Wales are heard.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. Now we have a UK Labour Government, are things different for some of the most vulnerable people in Wales? Are they different for the Welsh Government, who still have to fill in the holes that Westminster tears in the safety net that is meant to keep people in Wales from suffering hardship? We have higher rates of disabled people of working age than the UK average, and five of the UK's 10 local authorities with the highest rates of economic inactivity because of long-term illness. So, the impact of these unprecedented cuts to disability benefits on Wales will be devastating. Disability charities have called the plans immoral, unethical, short-sighted. Disability Wales said the £5 billion cuts

'will leave many disabled people in Wales considerably worse off'.

People on the personal independence payment could lose support of between £4,200 a year and £6,300 a year according to the Resolution Foundation. This cut to the income of Wales's poorest citizens is what you and your Government spent the last 14 years denouncing.

We've all heard Liz Kendall and our own First Minister yesterday defend this by trying to accentuate the positive, and we'd of course all welcome any reform that helps tackle the barriers that disabled people who are able and want to work face in finding and retaining employment. But for a Government always eager to emphasise that it listens to those with lived experience, which you've just reiterated again, the First Minister and the Government don't seem to be in listening mode. Are you really, Cabinet Secretary, as the Minister responsible for tackling poverty and supporting the rights of disabled people? The mental health charity, Mind, said that these cuts would exacerbate the mental health crisis. The Child Poverty Action Group said that it will undermine efforts to tackle child poverty. The Trussell Trust said that it will undermine Labour's promises to cut foodbank use. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation said that it'll make it harder for people to qualify for support. Oxfam Cymru called on the Welsh Government to demand that their colleagues in Westminster tax the wealthiest to help combat poverty and inequality. The Bevan Foundation has said that the plans will have a huge and concerning impact on the 275,000 people in Wales receiving PIP. This raises challenges for the Welsh Government in terms of the need for additional intensive support for young people who will lose out on a large amount of benefits and then will be put at a further disadvantage if they don’t get that support.

We've seen part of the letter sent by the First Minister to Liz Kendall and heard her answers to the questions posed by Rhun ap Iorwerth yesterday. What wasn't clear was whether the Welsh Government had been consulted on these plans. What did you disagree with? What changes were asked for in that letter, and what changes were made? What impact assessment was shared, if any? Could you provide a clear answer on what your concerns were? And what assessment have you made as to the impact on people and the services you provide—the demand for welfare advice, for devolved grants and allowances such as the discretionary assistance fund, for social and health services? They're all going to be disproportionately higher in Wales than in England. So, do you agree also that additional resource is therefore needed for these services, which will obviously need to be higher than a Barnettised uplift? And will you be asking that from your partners in Westminster?

Finally, what contingency measures are you considering to mitigate the devastation that is soon to be unleashed by these cuts? Will you be setting up a ministerial task and finish group on welfare reform, as you did in 2015, to consider the actions needed by Welsh Government in response to the consequences of Westminster cuts to welfare? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, thank you very much for your very important questions.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for those questions. We will carefully consider the impact of the proposed welfare reforms on people in Wales, and we will provide a cross-Government response as well. You referred to the fact that the First Minister has written to the Department of Work and Pensions Secretary of State asking what analysis has been done or will be done on the differential impact of any proposed cuts in welfare in Wales compared to England.

It is important that we do all we can within our powers to support people in Wales, and we will continue to do so. We want to make sure that people who can work are able to find employment and receive the support that they need. But we absolutely agree that the social security system needs to ensure that it's effectively supporting people into work but offering an effective financial safety net for people who are unable to work. As I said, I've urged and I continue to urge disabled people and their organisations that support them in Wales to ensure that their voices are heard by responding to the consultation, which closes on 30 June. As you know, I chair a disability equality forum, and I will be holding a meeting with the forum to discuss this.

I'm very pleased, also, that the Equality and Social Justice Committee has produced a really important report, which you also, as a member of that committee, contributed to, 'Anything’s Achievable with the Right Support: Tackling the Disability Employment Gap'. But also I would say that it's important that the work that the disability rights taskforce has done in Wales has demonstrated our commitment to listening and collaborating with disabled people. So, it's a 10-year disabled people's rights plan that's going to be published very shortly. It aims to remove barriers and create long-term positive change for disabled people. And one point I would make—and I'm sure you would agree—is that we need to place the social model of disability at the core of the response to the UK Government's welfare reform proposals, but also at the core of our vision and response in Wales.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Sioned, for raising this issue. And thank you, Cabinet Minister; we will wait for the response. Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the move by the UK Government to tackle the ballooning welfare Bill. In one of the most widely trailed announcements in recent times, Rachel Reeves and Liz Kendall came to the same conclusion as successive Conservative Secretaries of State, namely that action was desperately needed to ensure the long-term sustainability of the welfare system and to restore fairness. As health-related benefits for people of working age reach a staggering £71 billion a year, far more than we spend on the police and defending our nation, it has been clear for some time that a reform is no longer optional. Cabinet Secretary, do you regret that the UK Government criticised and then abandoned Conservative plans only to have to reintroduce welfare reforms because they crashed the economy with their jobs tax and now have to fill the resulting financial black hole?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I think, in terms of crashing the economy, we know who did that, in terms of Liz Truss's time in power and 14 years—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I ask Members to stop shouting across the Chamber, so the Minister can answer?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

—of austerity. But I absolutely thank you, of course, Altaf Hussain, for your important question. Can I say that, of course, we need to influence—[Interruption.] Obviously, we need to influence the response to this consultation on welfare reform. And what is important is that we do have a four nations inter-ministerial meeting with the UK Government Department for Work and Pensions—four nations. And it is four nations, so it will be Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, the UK Government. It's really important to get that four-nation engagement. It's been set up to discuss areas of mutual interest, such as how to reform the benefits system and to ensure that work always pays. This is where we can contribute in terms of the work that we've been doing to ensure that we can help address that gap, the disability employment gap, which we know exists. Of course, that's something where I think the work that we've done, particularly in terms of our employment support programmes, where we seek to establish a seamless and integrated employability support system, tailored towards fair work jobs—. We focus on those closest to the labour market, the short-term unemployed and redundant people.

We also, of course, employ five disabled people's employment champions, and they each bring lived experience and in-depth and practical understanding of the social model of disability. They are working, engaging with employers, employer representative organisations and trade unions across the public and private sector to promote recruitment, retention and progression of disabled people. Support for this has come from our disability rights taskforce, and, of course, they are helping us move forward in terms of our disabled people's rights plan, based on the social model of disability.

I think it is important that we look at some of the proposals in the announcements yesterday in relation to the opportunity of establishing a right-to-try principle, which would mean that work will not lead to reassessment, which, of course, causes great insecurity for disabled people. The intention is to legislate as soon as possible, so it can apply to the current system as well as the reformed system. I do note that, from many of the responses—concerned responses—from disability and social research organisations, there is a recognition that the right to try is important, so that—. And I think this was from the Bevan Foundation:

'And the proposal to clarify the work that claimants can undertake and guarantee that they can try a job without jeopardising their benefits should help to support people into work.'

But, of course, we are now in the process of engaging with, as I said—. It's important that we engage now not just with all of the disabled people's organisations that we already engage with, but look to the important Equality and Social Justice Committee report, publish our disabled people's rights plan for the next 10 years and engage with the UK Government constructively and proactively on these proposals.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

One of the things we've seen over the last few decades, of course, is that, when the Conservatives have been in power in the UK, child poverty has increased, and, when Labour have been in power in the UK, child poverty has decreased. The rates of child poverty in Wales doubled during the 1980s and have been increasing constantly since 2010. So, we do need to address the issues of poverty in this country. Do you agree with me, Minister, that the way to address poverty in this country is not simply to respond to relatively short-term issues around public spending, but to set a clear objective of Government that we will eradicate poverty, that we will reduce inequality, and that all Government policy, whether here in Wales or in the United Kingdom, should be driven by that objective, and that is the test by which we will test all policies that come out of either Government: how will this impact poverty, how will this impact the most vulnerable and how will this impact the poorest and the weakest in society?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that, and thank you for restating the principles of this Welsh Labour Government, Alun Davies. Actually, in a short time I'm joining a four nations child poverty taskforce meeting, which has been called by the UK Government this afternoon, where I will be pressing these points in terms of tackling child poverty, and it's important that Senedd Members are aware of that. I think it is really important that we understand how it is that we can support those who can work, how we can support them into employment, and we know that that is a huge issue for many, as the Equality and Social Justice Committee pointed out—the title, ‘Anything's Achievable with the Right Support’. We need to make sure that we get the funding for the right support for employment programmes. We need to ensure there's an effective, safe financial safety net for people who are unable to work. That's got to be recognised. And we will be carefully considering the proposal for a new health element, which will provide additional financial support for people claiming universal credit who are unable to work.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I can't believe what I'm hearing today, to be honest with you. Here, we have a branch of the Labour Party that has been going on and on about these issues for decades, pointing the finger at the Conservatives, saying that they are the enemy in all of this and that they force people into poverty. But George Osborne himself has said that he wouldn't have gone as far as Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer are doing in Westminster at the moment. Yet we have a Labour Party in Wales that is so servile, so lacking in backbone, that they will not stand up to these people in London who will force our people in Wales into poverty—into extreme poverty. We've heard Save the Children say today already that, if we think that child poverty is bad in Wales at the moment, it will get worse in the next year or two or three because of your decisions, your Government's decisions. This will be on your shoulders.

You mentioned, Cabinet Secretary, that you will do everything within your power in order to tackle and address this. Well, you will have to work within a very tight budget. You will have to do everything within your budget, and that budget is already stretched to the point that it's not possible to do everything.

Now, we know that austerity, what the Conservatives did, has prepared the ground for Farage, for Reform and that lot. It’s austerity that has caused this situation where we see the extreme right wing on the rise, because we're seeing services being cut. Now Labour, Labour in London, your Labour Party, is going to force more austerity on the people of Wales. This will push more and more people into the arms of those like Farage because they are losing all hope.

Now, we must have an understanding of the impact of this policy on Wales. It's going to impact your colleague next to you there. [Interruption.] I will come to a question. It's going to impact health and social care. So, what assessment will you make and has been made of the impact on the health and social care budget and how local authorities will cope with these cuts?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. You referred to the Conservatives; well, they, of course, left a dreadful legacy of 3 million people across the UK out of work for health reasons, and failing to tackle the root cause of economic activity. But it is important, as I said in answer to the questions today, that we do respond to these proposals, and that we engage with the disabled people's organisations, those who are affected by this, and that we contribute—and I've mentioned the four nations' ministerial meeting with the Department for Work and Pensions—and engage as well.

But can I go back? Just in terms of the assessment, you will know, and I will repeat, and you heard yesterday, that the First Minister wrote to the DWP Secretary of State, asking what analysis has been or will be done on the differential impact of any proposed cuts in welfare on Wales compared to England. In fact, yesterday, I recall she said she'd been in touch with No. 10 as well, to make those points. We need to make sure that we then work together, so that we can understand the impact of this, in terms of the people that we serve.

But I do want to also make one point that I think is very important. I've talked about the work that we're already doing in terms of our disabled employment champions and the fact that we have our disability rights taskforce. We have demonstrated our commitment to listening to and collaborating with disabled people and disabled people's organisations, and to look at all of those key issues that affect them: independent living, health, social care, employment and income, travel, children and young people. These were all workstreams that we worked on together, to listen to them, to work with them, to come up with recommendations for this Government.

And I think it is important, in terms of the needs of young people, for example, that we actually do have a young person's guarantee here in Wales. That young person's guarantee means that our young people who are under the age of 25 can have—. And we have those lower youth unemployment figures, which are really critical, compared to the rest of the UK—6 per cent compared to 11.5 per cent—because we have provided the job guarantee, supporting over 48,000 young people. It is about a job, training or an apprenticeship. So, I think the work we're already doing—and of course that is funded within our budget—will also ensure that we have a robust response to this. We want a compassionate, person-centred welfare system, but a welfare system that enables people who want to work to work. Diolch yn fawr.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I've been contacted by so many constituents, really concerned about this. I don't know what to tell them, and I don't know what to tell them the Welsh Government's position is, which is a sorry state of affairs, and shows that the partnership in power is nothing more than rhetoric. I know how different your comments would be if we still had a Conservative Government implementing these changes. And what I would like to know is: what is the Welsh Government's position on these changes? Now that you know the details, what will be in that letter to the UK Government? I hope there will be a letter. What do you disagree with, what are your concerns, and, also, what will you do about it?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I think I've answered those questions more than once this afternoon. We've already raised this; the First Minister raised it before we'd even had the proposals yesterday. She raised it—[Interruption.]—she raised it—[Interruption.] If you want to see and respect the fact that we have a First Minister who raised these questions directly with our colleagues in the UK Government, and recognise the influence that our First Minister has—[Interruption.]—and that I will have—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Members need to allow the Cabinet Secretary to respond.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

—I'm sure, when I meet with this four nations inter-ministerial group with the UK Government. It won't just be myself as Cabinet Secretary; it will also include the Cabinet Secretary from the Scottish Government, who will also want to take the opportunity, as will the Ministers from Northern Ireland. This is important in terms of our responsibilities in Government.

But I do want to assure you that the most important point for me today is to say that I will be meeting with disabled people here in Wales, and talking to them about the impact. I will do the analysis, but also I look forward to responding to the really important Equality and Social Justice Committee, and I hope that you will be able to welcome the 10-year disabled people's rights plan. That's what our plan has been called. It's a disabled people's rights plan because we believe in the social model of disability. We want to remove the barriers to disabled people, and of course, those disabled people who want to enter work and need the support that we can give them, that's where we will play our part.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

No 90-second statements were submitted.

5. Motion to suspend Standing Orders

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

So, I'll move on to item 5, which is the motion to suspend Standing Order 13.6 to allow multiple contributions from individual Members during item 6. And I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to suspend Standing Order 13.6. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Open Debate: Can renewables alone meet the energy needs of Wales?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And that brings us to item 6, the open debate: can renewables alone meet the energy needs of Wales? And I call on Carolyn Thomas to open the debate.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you. I'd like to thank the Business Committee for selecting this important topic as the Senedd's first open debate. I hope the question—can renewables alone meet the energy needs of Wales—will spark an in-depth discussion about the future of our energy sector here in Wales, and I look forward to hearing the ideas and contributions of Members from across the Chamber, and I may be coming out with some provocative ideas as well.

Wales has an abundance of natural elements—wave, wind and solar—that can create energy and power our homes. We can store it with batteries, by creating green hydrogen and by using interconnectors, moving it around to where it's needed and where the wind might be blowing. The cost of gas continues to rise rapidly and we rely on importing it at high cost, and we need to move away from harmful fossil fuels.

North Wales has the highest standing and unit energy charges in Great Britain, because of the network, I'm told. And the UK's energy charges are the highest of any developed nation, because we don't own and we rely on imports, yet we have three huge windfarms off the north Wales coast—that is our view out to sea. But how do we benefit from it? Is zonal charging the answer, as was raised earlier?

We need to achieve energy security for the people of Wales. That means an end to relying on foreign imports or fossil fuels and instead putting the focus on producing energy here in Wales for people at a fair price. At present, Wales is a net exporter of electricity. In 2022, it generated twice as much as it consumed and around a third of its generation currently comes from renewables, with the remaining coming from fossil fuels, mainly gas.

We need to tip the scales in favour of clean, green energy that benefits local people. More European and global businesses would like to invest in renewables in Wales, and we're seeing so many applications coming forward for onshore wind as well as many offshore solar farms, battery storage, and a proposal for a tidal lagoon, I heard, off Swansea bay, seeking UK and Welsh Government funding.

Developers demand that action is required to address key barriers, such as delays to planning applications, but often, policies clash. I hope that we will be designating a new national park in north Wales, but what does that mean for onshore wind and its infrastructure? Can it still be built? We need to restore peat, but are building onshore wind turbines in peatland areas, impacting on that. What takes precedence? We are in a nature as well as a climate emergency.

I raised issues on behalf of Mostyn docks, the birthplace of the Welsh windfarm. Planning issues raised by Natural Resources Wales were eventually overcome, and previously with Coleg Llandrillo in Rhyl, they wanted to go ahead with building a wind turbine maintenance engineering facility in Rhyl, but NRW said 'no'. Rhyl is classed as a flood-risk area. They were saying 'no' because of that, but we need skills for green energy to address climate change. Thankfully, it was overcome, because reason saw through.

There needs to be a joined-up strategy across Government departments that balances the costs and benefits of large-scale projects. The EU have passed a new law requiring solar installations on new commercial and public buildings, on every one undergoing a relevant renovation by 2027, on new residential buildings by 2029, and existing public buildings by 2030. Those are the targets that are being set for solar photovoltaics on every building. I'm told that Welsh Government sees mandatory photovoltaics as a blocker to innovation, but I'd like to know why. What sort of domestic energy policy innovation is being developed in Wales that PV would block? I don’t understand.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

At present, the national grid cannot cope after years of underinvestment and is in need of major renewal, which will take years. A solar farm is being built at Saltney and they were told they couldn’t connect to the grid until 2038, but solar farm developers are quickly learning and incorporating battery storage as well. A north Wales council was told by Scottish Power, after 60 months of asking and waiting, that they couldn’t connect the solar panels on their sheltered accommodation to the grid and to their local network—it couldn’t cope—but they did get around it with battery storage. That’s what we need to be thinking about.

We must also recognise that an increase in the number of renewables and a move away from a reliance on gas will mean more visible infrastructure, including pylons and cables, in our countryside and on hilltops, as that is where the wind blows the most. We need to ensure that these communities impacted benefit from lower tariffs and the undergrounding of cables wherever possible.

The UK Government has looked to address this. They’ve announced a Bill on a discount scheme to ensure households near new or upgraded pylons will save up to £2,500 on bills over 10 years. Is that enough? And there will be legal requirements for communities to directly benefit from hosting grid infrastructure, to be introduced through the Planning and Infrastructure Bill.

Ynni Cymru has funded smart local energy projects, creating energy and using it where it’s needed, helping leisure and community centres, theatres and other public buildings with solar PV to create the energy, batteries to store where needed, low-energy lighting and electric-vehicle charging. That’s a proper little circular economy going on there, where it’s needed. And as the Cabinet Secretary explained earlier today, 32 out of 100 applications were successful for the Ynni Cymru grants, which goes to show the need is there if there’s more money. There is £10 million in the budget for next year, but can we get more in the pot from some of these large developers?

I also believe that the Crown Estate should be working for the benefit of people in Wales. Its functions in Wales should be completely devolved to a new body that has as its principal aim the reinvestment of all funds in Wales for the long-term benefit of the people of Wales, in the form of a sovereign wealth fund. Wales is the poorest constituent country of Great Britain, despite its abundance of natural resources. The current system sees a transfer of wealth from fees arising from the Crown Estate’s commercial activity in Wales to England—an illogical and bizarre outcome.

Renewable energy is also a hot topic for our public petitions process. As Chair of the Petitions Committee, I see people raising their concerns about detrimental environmental and local impacts from renewable energy projects and not seeing sufficient community benefits for their local area. The petitions process is not always the most appropriate channel to channel these concerns—we think something like the planning process may be the best way going forward—but it generates huge interest, which I think it great for our Senedd. They are calling for Welsh Government to follow Germany’s example and site solar panels near roads, railways and car parks and on commercial buildings, and those opposing wind and solar energy projects and battery storage facilities have raised this with us.

I firmly believe that, given time and investment, renewables alone can meet the energy needs of Wales and that our focus should be achieving that. I believe, personally, that carbon capture storage is an expensive white elephant, pushed by fossil fuel companies demanding public funding from our taxes, which they should be actually funding themselves. I heard from Eni. I spoke to them when they wanted Government funding to build a massive pipeline as part of the HyNet project. I asked, 'If you didn’t have the money from Government, would you fund it yourselves?' They said, 'Well, yes, because we’ve invested so much already.' We should be holding them to that.

The precious subsidy of billions of pounds going to carbon capture and storge should instead be going into grants for reducing our bills, keeping us warm, insulating our housing stock, sorting out leaky windows and roofs and inefficient boilers, and putting solar PV on our roofs. Carbon capture and storage is a technology that’s unproven. It’s failed in 10 out of 13 projects across the world, and has caused asphyxiation to residents when pipes have ruptured. It can also do massive environmental damage if leaked. Technology is developing, and the captured carbon dioxide could be turned into pellets for another project and reused.

I also simply do not accept that nuclear is in any way a renewable form of energy either. Not only because it relies upon finite materials, but also because it means passing on to our children and future generations the job of dealing with the toxic waste. It’s staggering to think about all the time and the billions of pounds that have already been wasted on nuclear projects across the UK that have still not been completed. It’s money that could have been spent investing in the deliverable climate-friendly energy production of the future and increasingly cheap and true renewable energy such as wind, solar, green hydrogen and tidal. We don’t have to look far to see them already here in Wales. And there are plans for more, whether it’s the Morlais tidal energy project, new offshore windfarms, or a possible north Wales or Swansea tidal barrage. These forms of truly renewable energy are making nuclear increasingly redundant.

To sum up, we need a more strategic approach and a clear vision for decarbonising the Welsh economy, ensuring community benefit, with lower tariffs and bills for our Welsh people. We need energy being produced at source to overcome difficulties obtaining grid connections and the Government needs to develop grants to help individual residents and communities reduce bill costs and develop green skills and a just transition. Thank you. I look forward to hearing contributions now.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Carolyn. So, I suppose, really, I could say, 'Can renewables alone meet the energy needs of Wales?' and I’ll say, ‘Not now, no’. Wales needs a reliable supply of energy, full stop. We’ve got an energy security crisis as we speak. That needs to be provided by the renewables we’ve already got, those that we’re already working towards obtaining, such as Awel y Môr, Morlais, as you’ve mentioned, and other renewable energy sources. But we also, let’s face facts, still need our gas. We still need LPG for some houses in our rural communities that just cannot access any other forms of energy. We still need log burners and oil.

I disagree with you about nuclear. Certainly, Virginia Crosbie, the previous Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn, worked really hard, and the UK Conservative Government saw considerable progress towards seeing a new nuclear power plant developed on Ynys Môn. We’ve also got Trawsfynydd, and there’s scope there for that to be part and parcel of this model. [Interruption.] You can intervene if you want, Rhun.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You can carry on, Janet Finch-Saunders. Ignore mutterings.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

We introduced a new financing model, and even bought the Wylfa site. Eight months on now, under this new UK Labour Government, momentum on nuclear in Wylfa seems to have been lost. This Senedd, and indeed the Government, should send a clear message today to the UK Government that we need a clear update as to what steps they have taken to attract investment to Wylfa.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I believe, just to get planning through, it could take 15 years. Hinkley and Sizewell are so far behind, and so over budget, taking years to build, and it’s costing, I think, £43 billion now, just for one plant. So, it could take 20 years, 25 years, to actually get operational, and billions of pounds of money that we don’t actually have. EDF are subsiding that build as well. Do you think that’s a barrier, going forward?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Certainly, it’s not just about providing the energy, is it? It’s about providing the much-needed jobs on Ynys Môn. But anyway, I do believe we need to send a clear message today—

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Will you take an intervention?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Just on that point, it really is important to remember what happened here. There are different views on nuclear, but that project collapsed because of a Conservative UK Government failing to deliver it. And Carolyn’s quite right—it had taken such a long time to get to that point. That has all been undone, which makes it more and more important for us to be focusing on all those other aspects of how we can create jobs and generate energy at the same time, in a green way, whilst absolutely keeping an eye on what can be done on Wylfa. But it collapsed on the Tories’ watch.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

It didn’t collapse on the Tories’ watch. It collapsed because we weren’t re-elected to actually carry on with the scheme. [Interruption.] No.

Alongside the baseload provided by nuclear, we can and should embrace renewable opportunities. With all the rivers and streams in Wales, we should be seeing small and micro hydro projects appearing across the nation. However, private investment into these schemes is being deterred because of the rug that Welsh Labour pulled from under those wanting these schemes to go ahead when they started charging business rates.

In January, Rhondda Cynon Taf council submitted planning applications for two hydroelectric schemes in Treforest. Such applications are inspirational and show what can be achieved across Wales. Details as to how the Welsh Government are co-operating with all authorities in Wales to bring forward new hydro schemes would be much appreciated.

There is huge potential with solar too. I do agree with you in terms of the buildings. I've got headteachers who have asked me in Aberconwy, 'Why can we not have solar panels on our roof? That would then give us a very cheap form of energy for the school'. But there's no enthusiasm from this Welsh Government or local authorities to allow those—[Interruption.] It's going to be fun, this.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I was just going to propose that if there was some grant funding available from these big developers for the big projects, that could go towards community schemes such as putting solar PVs on our public buildings, towards homes maybe on a grant funding basis—that might work. Do you think that's a good idea?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, and do you agree with me, Carolyn, that all new housing should include solar panels on their roofs? I've seen two new estates go up recently—not a single solar panel on them. It's just a wasted opportunity.

Japan is requiring solar on new houses built by large-scale home builders after April 2025. What more can we do to see solar on all new properties in Wales? Solar will be compulsory for new public and commercial buildings larger than 250 sq m in the European Union, and the Institute for Applied Ecology has identified capacity for solar along roads, over car parks and in industrial areas in Germany. And I notice now that Japan, instead of using fence panels, are using solar panels. If we could get the skills in Wales—. Obviously, we need to upskill our workforce before any of this is achievable, but that's where our goal should be, that's where our ambition should be.

They need to be beside roads, railways and over car parks, not necessarily green fields. Beautiful rural areas from Ynys Môn to the Gwent levels are now considered by many people in the local community to be under threat from large open-scale fields covered in solar panels. They don't want that. There is a real risk that food production capacity will be hampered, increasing reliance on imports. Is that really what we want for rural Wales? The Welsh Government should pause applications for solar on farms. They need to undertake a review of solar and they need to develop a solar strategy.

We need to be more ambitious in terms of a tidal lagoon scheme. I know that there are lots of talks going ahead in north Wales and an ex-councillor that I know there has done a lot of work on this, but again, finding the difficulties of connecting with this Welsh Government. That's what devolution was always going to be about—that Ministers were more accessible. But those people that come up with good schemes are finding it problematic, and so we need to be more business minded as a Welsh Government in terms of the renewables.

We need to look at the opportunities out at sea. The progress made with wind is commendable. The UK actually leads this sector globally. Central to this is the professionalism with which the Crown Estate is run. Plaid Cymru, of course, want the organisation devolved and they have succeeded in getting a few local authorities to agree with them. [Interruption.] Anyway, thankfully the Welsh Labour Government are actually sensible in this approach because some things are best left. If it isn't broke, why try to fix it? Do they really think it's wise to set up another organisation in Wales that would, based on the cost of the management and board members in Scotland, cost over £0.5 million annually?

The Crown Estate is bringing forward leasing rounds faster than ever. Within one year of the agreements for the fourth round being signed, the fifth round had commenced, and the Crown Estate is spending millions on surveying our sea bed to ascertain which areas are most suitable for renewable schemes. Rather than devolve for the sake of devolving—. And let's be honest, Plaid would devolve anything and everything, because they want an independent Wales. What we should be doing is co-operating with the Crown Estate to create a national spatial—[Interruption.] Yes.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

What do you have against Wales having control over its own natural resources?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

At the end of the day, we are getting money in to Wales through the Crown Estate, so why would you—? Personally, I wouldn't be wanting to devolve it to this Welsh Labour Government.

Rather than devolving for the sake of devolving and putting the role Wales plays in the renewable revolution at risk, what we should be doing is co-operating with the Crown Estate to create a national spatial marine development plan for Wales. As the Senedd has heard me say before, such a plan would be like local development plans on land, and as such, we would see a detailed map of the sea bed created, making clear which projects can go where and where we can then have areas of protection for our nature recovery and our natural species.

I've talked about Morlais, but I'll just elaborate. Last month, they had fantastic news, as the Cydnerth project was approved. It will futureproof the Morlais tidal energy scheme by investing in its infrastructure, enabling the scheme's 18 MW grid capacity to increase, over time, to allow the full 240 MW. The expansion will create up to 230 new jobs and supply chain opportunities, cementing the region's position in the tidal energy sector. One of the key strengths of Morlais is the 'plug and play' model they've developed. For tidal stream energy to become commercially viable, developers need certainty.

Without Morlais, individual technology developers would have to navigate the complexities of planning permission, marine licensing, electricity grid connections, on their own. By securing these permissions in advance, Morlais have now removed many of the risks that could otherwise slow down or even deter investment in the sector. This means that developers can focus on innovation, scaling up their technology, rather than having to manage complex regulatory processes from scratch.

I hope that this Welsh Parliament and, indeed, the Welsh Government, can learn and encourage more plug and pay models like this. Indeed, there are several sites around Wales with similarly strong tidal currents, including St David's head, Bardsey island and parts of the Severn channel. I hope that I've managed to highlight that the opportunities for renewables in Wales are significant, and they should be developed alongside a baseload from nuclear. But right now, we are in an energy security crisis, and we do need our fossil fuels. Diolch.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

This is a welcome debate. I think we saw in the previous session, in questions to the Cabinet Secretary for economy, the interest that the Chamber takes when it comes to energy. In particular—and Carolyn mentioned it in her opening remarks—the zonal pricing element of UK Government policy now actually does provide us, I think, with an opportunity to get this right and to actually do something that is going to benefit consumers and industry through cheaper electricity bills. But that's the important thing here: we need to get it right.

At the moment, the risk is that we'll see places in Wales paired with some of those high-energy-demand areas like London and Birmingham, which actually won't benefit people in Wales and we'll see energy bills being more expensive. So, I again would make the point that there is a need to maybe think about this in a bit more depth. I understand, of course, what potentially some of the unintended consequences might be that the Cabinet Secretary referred to of a Welsh-only zone, but I think it's important we have that discussion and get it right.

Jenny Rathbone, in her question to the Cabinet Secretary, raised a very important point, and that is that, when we look at the pricing of energy, having it pegged to fossil fuels, in our case gas, is restricting our ability to show the benefit of what renewable energy means for people when it comes to their energy bills. So, again, here comes an opportunity for us to get this right, but we really do need to get this right. But on, specifically, the renewable—

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Will you give way?

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes, of course.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Just building on that, I mean, one of the perverse things about the current system, which is a highly centralised system, is that what happens is, when demand in the centre, you know, reaches a certain level, then energy generation that is further away from that is actually switched off. So, they actually switch—. A renewable energy capacity that is generating in Wales is switched off rather than it being made available to local consumers at a cheaper price. It's absolutely bizarre. So, you know, effectively, the value of hundreds of millions of pounds of wasted energy generation, currently, because of the centralised system, isn't available to be used to the benefit of Welsh citizens.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes, I completely agree. I mean, again, it comes to the point that I was making about the need to actually address some of those structural issues within the energy system as well. I mean, the fact that you turn off renewable energy generation for extended periods of time just simply doesn't make sense. All that investment being wasted, and the fact that that energy, then, could have been given to people locally and at a cheaper price—it simply just doesn't make any sense.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Can I—?

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Carolyn, of course.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Can I just ask you, you know—? We're looking at zonal pricing, but already, in a way, we've got different prices, haven't we, with the standing charge that's paid—a really high standing charge—in north Wales? And then, you know, the unit price as well. So, I'm interested to know how we can do it, because we need to benefit the people that are impacted as well. So, I hope that we will be able to discuss this in the future and that decisions aren't going to be made for us, so that we can have input. And this is why I wanted to bring the debate today, you know, this afternoon, to you. So, I would be interested to know how we can have that communication going forward regarding that—an input into any discussions.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes, and I hope the fact that we've spent the first four minutes of my contribution talking about zonal pricing and energy pricing is proof to the Cabinet Secretary that, of course, there is great interest in this and that there's a lot of scope here, I think, in terms of her negotiations with the UK Government to have conversations, not just within Government, but outside of Government, about how we get this right, and I look forward to those conversations. To be fair, the Cabinet Secretary has committed to keeping us updated with those conversations, so I look forward to that element of it.

Specifically on the renewable energy side of things, though, one of my concerns, I'll be honest, around seeing this debate being tabled is that we were going to hear the same sort of stuff being said time and time again. I mean, we heard it in the first contribution from Janet Finch-Saunders, we are likely going to hear it with other contributions as well. And that's us saying, 'Well, we need to do this, we need to do that' and so on. I think we need to move on from that now and say, 'Well, actually, how do we do the things that we say we need to do?', because that hasn't happened.

I think we do need a clearer sense of direction or strategy from Welsh Government about what exactly it is that we're trying to achieve with energy policy. Now, of course, we've got the central principle, which is decarbonising Wales and decarbonising the economy. That's all well and good, great, but perhaps we need to start thinking a bit deeper now. You know, what are we going to do with the fact, for example, that Wales is an energy exporter? How does that play into our energy policy and energy strategy going forward? And to be fair to Welsh Government, I mean, resources are really restricted. You know, we've heard again in the previous contribution, and in Carolyn's contribution, about all these different projects that are out there—the Swansea bay tidal lagoon; we've talked about hydrogen, nuclear. But to be fair to Welsh Government, the Government can't step in on every single one of these projects. So, I actually think there's merit in perhaps a wider conversation about, 'Well, what do we want to specialise in? What do we really want to focus on?' Do we want to focus on offshore wind, for example, and make the investments there and become the first movers when it comes to offshore wind generation and all the benefits that come with that on the international stage? Do we want to focus on hydrogen? There's great potential for hydrogen, specifically in west Wales, with the projects that are in the pipeline there, as well as the pipeline that would go down the M4 corridor, which actually would have an impact, then, on places like Port Talbot, where we could then explore some offshoots like hydrogen steel, as an example. So, I think there is a case, actually, in us actually thinking about, 'Well, do we want to specialise in something? Do we want Wales to be known for a specific type of energy generation and development of that technology?' I would be interested to hear the Members' views.

Looking at the time, I'll stick to talking about the community benefit of energy, because the reality is that we do need to bring communities along with us on this point. We see it time and time again in our local constituencies, when projects are brought forward for that large-scale energy generation, they're often met with a lot of local opposition. I think we can actually meet people halfway in some cases. I think where we're looking at some of the community funds that are available—and we've done some work on this in the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee—where some community funds are available, perhaps we should be a bit more strategic about how we use that money, and use that money to actually resolve some of the other issues we have in society. So, for example, retrofitting housing, making houses warmer, better insulation, and putting the solar panels on the roofs of houses to help, again, bring down energy bills for people is, I think, perhaps one of those solutions that we can find. [Interruption.] Yes, Joyce.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

When we talk about panels—and I absolutely agree that we should put them on buildings—I think there's an opportunity here to make use of grants to businesses so that when businesses apply for grants to extend their business, we put alongside that a requirement that that is a capital bid to put solar panels on it. I'm mindful here of covering a rural community. So, very often we give grants to businesses operating in those rural communities; they could be farms, they could be other buildings that go up, and there's a real opportunity, in my view, that you put alongside the success of that grant a focus on actually putting in some green energy solutions. And that will do many things. It will help the business to have really cheap energy to run their production, particularly in rural areas, and farming, I think, is a really good example of that, and also, perhaps, to run their vehicles, their cars, their other equipment. So, we're getting better use of the public funds that are going into that, because it's public money, at the end of the day, when you give a grant, and also better solutions for the people who require that help.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes, and I think that one of the best things about the fact that we can help businesses generate their own energy on-site or domestic properties generate energy on their own site is that, actually, we're insulating them as well from some of the price shocks that we've seen over the last couple of years. I know of a couple of businesses, not just in my region but outside of my region as well, who have high energy demand in manufacturing, some of them in food and drink, that would have benefited massively and would have liked to have seen some form of grant or some form of support from Government to be able to generate their own energy to offset their energy bill prices. As we know, energy pricing has been one of the largest overheads of business over the last couple of years; we haven't done enough to address issues around that.

Again, I'm looking at the time, Llywydd. I'll end just by saying that I was slightly confused about the comment made by Janet Finch-Saunders when it came to the Crown Estate and the sensible approach of Welsh Government, because last time I checked, Welsh Government supposedly support the devolution of the Crown Estate. If only UK Government would come along with Welsh Government on that journey.

When it comes to the community fund that I mentioned and using them in a better way, well, the sovereign wealth fund that we could have from the devolution of the Crown Estate I think is really important as well in terms of addressing some of those wider issues within society. And we, again, could look at retrofitting. We could also look at the skills agenda, because, again, in delivering a lot of the renewable energy projects that we want to deliver, we need the people within Wales to have the skills to be able then to work on sites of that nature. So, on that note, Llywydd, I'll end. Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really pleased that Carolyn Thomas's motion on how we meet the energy needs of Wales has been chosen as our very first topic for the open debate, and I think it's already been a really worthwhile and thoughtful discussion of what is a complex and timely issue. Only recently we've seen the impact that being dependent on the global price of fossil fuels can have on our households and on our businesses, and that's why having a reliable and green source of energy is absolutely crucial for our energy security, and it's fundamental to the future stability of our economy and our wider society.

We've set the vision for Wales to transition to a net-zero energy system in a way that generates greater benefits to our economy and our society than the system that we have today, and an essential element of this is the transition to and the scaling up of renewable energy. So, we've set the ambition for Wales to host enough renewable energy to meet our electricity consumption by 2035, and then to keep pace with the growth in demand thereafter. And this is a really ambitious target, because we know that demand for electricity is set to grow significantly as our homes, our transport, and our businesses and industrial processes shift away from fossil fuels. We also know that we'll need a range of technologies to meet this target. We'll need more onshore wind, more solar, and we need to continue to see the rapid deployment of offshore renewables, both wind and tidal.

The First Minister has made the green energy revolution a priority. In the last six months alone 10 developments, generating over 459 MW, have received approval. That's enough to power 230,000 homes in Wales. So, we're absolutely in the delivery zone. We are making things happen. As other colleagues have set out, Welsh Government can't do all of this by itself. We definitely need the input from the private sector. So, that's why we're establishing an environment that is conducive to development, but one where we can keep the benefits in Wales, and where our communities have a say. So, those are some of the reasons why we've streamlined the planning process, and we've provided additional resources to consenting bodies. I've also set up the offshore wind task and finish group to identify the actions that we need to take to secure lasting economic benefits for Wales from the considerable opportunities that offshore wind affords us.

But we also know that our future energy system in Wales can't rely solely on renewable energy, and we've been working with the UK Government to deliver the ambition for clean power by 2030. The analysis that the National Energy Systems Operator, NESO, has undertaken shows that, similar to our target, we can deliver enough renewables to meet our needs, but we also need dispatchable capacity for when renewable sources can't generate enough supply for times of extreme peak demand. So, on Monday I was really delighted to visit SAE Renewables and their 120 MW battery storage project in Newport, and this facility has the potential to provide a pivotal role in managing peak demand by storing renewably generated electricity to be dispatched onto the grid when needed. The NESO analysis has shown the requirement for a considerable increase in storage to help manage a renewable-based energy system.

I don't accept the charge, which has been made this afternoon, that we're not accessible to the renewables industry. I would say it's quite the opposite. Welsh Government spends a huge amount of time engaging with the renewables sector, and our door is always open. If I can't go and visit and meet organisations and developers myself, then I make sure that officials meet very quickly with them. Another assertion I have to push back on this afternoon is around support for Morlais. Morlais is a brilliant project. Welsh Government has taken an £8 million equity stake in that, so I think it's important to recognise that these projects happen because of Welsh Government support, either financial support or the supportive environment that we try and provide through planning, but also ensuring that organisations and businesses have the skills they need to develop.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. The Welsh Government's made very good progress working with local authorities to develop a set of local energy plans to map out, in detail, demand and supply at a local level. I wonder if you could update us on progress to covering the whole of Wales with those local energy plans. And there was a commitment as well to develop a national energy plan by the end of last year. Can you update us on where we're at with that as well, please?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, we do have, now, full coverage, in terms of those local energy plans, and I think that really makes Wales the envy of other parts of the UK, and we are certainly working to ensure that our national plan is aligned to the plans that we've set out through our planning process and so on, to make sure that the two things are complementary. I think that the regional approach has to be considered as well, to explore what more we could be doing in the future through corporate joint committees, in terms of understanding their potential role in this space in future as well. So, I think there's an awful lot more we can be doing in this space, but in terms of our local plans, I do think that now we are in a good space, and that is because of the good work that we've been doing with our local government partners, who are absolutely committed to this particular agenda as well.

As we're fundamentally changing the way that we generate and use energy, we have co-commissioned the NESO to develop the strategic spatial energy plan. The aim of that plan is to develop the least-cost system to meet net zero, and that's important for all of us, to ensure that we have an efficient system that takes into account the cost of generation, but also our wider spatial priorities, including nature restoration, and that speaks to the point that's just been made by Lee Waters. So, whilst we will see big changes in Wales, we also know that we'll still need that dispatchable power from gas power generation. But what we want to see in Wales is the investment that will support the decarbonisation of those facilities, and that's why we've consulted on our approach to carbon capture, usage and storage in Wales, and we agree with the Climate Change Committee that CCUS is a necessity in our future, and that's why our approach provides a clear framework that does support CCUS, but—this is the important part—only in situations where it contributes to decarbonisation.

We also want to see investment in low-carbon hydrogen in Wales, and we have some fantastic innovation in hydrogen deployment going on across Wales, including hydrogen home trials and our hydrogen hubs in north and south Wales. Hydrogen will have an important part to play in decarbonising industry and other key hard-to-decarbonise sectors, and we want to attract that investment to Wales. We want to see—

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Sorry, it took a second for me just to process what you said about CCUS. You said only when it can be shown to be contributing towards carbon reduction. But, of course, you could argue that none of it does, because carbon is still being produced.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, the consultation that I put out—I think it was back in November—set out our proposed policy approach. The consultation is now closed, and we're considering those responses. But the consultation was very much about only using this technology in circumstances where it leads to decarbonisation. So, we know that there are some sectors that are very hard to decarbonise—the production of cement, for example. Now, cement is a foundational substance that we will need for investment in infrastructure and so on. And if we want cement for the infrastructure, then we have to do it in a way that leads to it being decarbonised. So, that's an example of one of the hard-to-decarbonise sectors.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Cement is used for concrete, but we now have technologies coming forward where you can use cement-free concrete. There's a factory just been built in Wrexham. To do carbon capture and storage, you're going to have to build big facilities at the side of new ones, and to build those factories at the side, the chimneys to capture carbon, is going to take a lot of planning and a lot of infrastructure build, and will take time. And then in some instances, such as with HyNet, they're going to have to build a pipe, which will go through communities—I think that one's 32 km long—to connect with the other one. So, that's going to release carbon as well. Again, it's releasing carbon to build, and then to put the pipe in is going to have an impact as well with carbon. So, is that part of working it all out, regarding the carbon being produced? Is that part of the calculations—all that building work—as well?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Just yesterday, we had the launch in the Senedd of the Milford Haven carbon dioxide project, and that looks at how RWE can decarbonise its operations through the use of carbon capture and storage, but their model very much looks towards non-pipeline solutions. So, at the moment, we're working to seek commitments from the UK Government in relation to those non-pipeline approaches, which would be the priority in that particular area, and we hope to have a response to the UK Government from its call to evidence on this very shortly.

So, just moving on to wanting to see the transition that accelerates growth in Wales and also brings new jobs and opportunities for future operations, this really is about maintaining that benefit here in Wales. Our policies have long supported an approach where energy infrastructure is developed with communities, and it does explicitly favour local ownership. That's why I'm pleased that we've already achieved our local ownership target of 1 GW by 2030 and we want to achieve at least 1.5 GW of locally owned renewable energy generation by 2035. We also recognise that individual businesses and households have their role to play and the opportunity to benefit from renewable energy on their premises. Through our building regulations, we do have a requirement for homes and non-domestic properties to reduce their carbon emissions in future, and we will look to increase that in future years.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

You mentioned the 1 GW local ownership target, but alongside that, in 2020, you brought forward a policy that said that every renewable project in Wales must include an element of local ownership. Can you give us a sense of how successful you have been in that regard? What proportion, roughly, of renewable projects have had a proportion of local ownership since the introduction of the policy five years ago?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Unfortunately, I don't have those figures at my fingertips, but I'll certainly make sure that I do update Adam Price on that as soon as I can, because, as I said, local ownership is very much something that we've explicitly favoured for a long time.

I'm wondering how generous the Llywydd is going to be in terms of—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I'm feeling extremely generous this afternoon, so you carry on until you've run out of things to say.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay, be careful what I wish for—be careful what I wish for. Okay. You carry on until I say so.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Okay. So, I'll carry on, but I won't refer to things that I've already talked about during oral questions this afternoon, because I know that, in questions this afternoon, we did have quite a thorough discussion about Ynni Cymru, for example. But I would want to draw attention to the work of the Development Bank of Wales. They are piloting a loan scheme to support households in Wales to decarbonise their home, which I think is really positive. And colleagues will be very familiar with the work that we're doing through Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru as well to try and ensure that we make the most of our Welsh Government land assets and explore how we can de-risk, if you like, the opportunities for investment on the Welsh Government estate by ensuring that sites are ready to go and that we maximise the value that we keep in Wales. And Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru have already been doing consultations about what communities would see as acceptable in terms of community benefits, because we think that we can take a fresh approach to community benefits in that space. And there's some thinking to do about whether that is the specific very local community or if there are benefits that we would want to see Wales-wide from a Wales-owned company. So, all of those things are exciting developments going on at the moment.

And of course, we've got an opportunity to deliver green jobs. The regional energy strategies have identified over 200,000 new jobs all across our regions from the investment opportunities. The work on the local area planning, which we talked about earlier, has now identified the projects and the actions that we need to take in order to deliver those jobs in every single local area. So, again, that's really exciting stuff.

So, in addition to jobs, bringing the lowest cost energy will also be crucial as we tackle fuel poverty and ensure a sustainable economy. And we are acting now, so the things that I've talked about are actions that we're taking now. We're delivering on the ground to ensure that current and future generations benefit from the investment that's required. And also, through our approach to the management of our natural resources, we also want to ensure that we address both the climate and the nature emergencies facing Wales.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

In 2015, I and other members of the then environment committee visited Baden-Württemberg. I think Llyr Gruffydd was one of them. And amongst the wonderful community energy schemes we saw, we visited a tiny village outside Freiburg of maybe 300 or 400 citizens at the most. They had 50,000 customers for the renewable energy they were generating from wind, hydro, solar and biomass. That simply isn't possible under the regulations that we are still living under. It is made super difficult for any small enterprise to get going along those lines. And we saw it in other villages as well, where there were hydro schemes and other ways in which we could be addressing this. So, we are a very long way from where we need to be on that front. But it is ironic that, nevertheless, despite all of those efforts at a community level, Germany has been unable to turn off its coal-fired power stations. Because it turned off all its nuclear power stations after Chernobyl—for very good reasons—it simply isn’t able to turn off its coal-fired power stations unless it can source really significant areas of energy to keep its industry going.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I went on a visit just a few weeks ago with Llyr and the committee to Stuttgart and we had a meeting with EnBW, who are looking to do the Mona windfarm off north Wales, actually. I was very interested to hear that they are looking at putting solar PV on all new builds going forward and they’ve actually invested in the grid as well. So, they have got plans in place to rapidly change things, which was really interesting, and I think we do have a lot to learn from other countries that are doing this, progressing forward, and I still would like to know why we’re not doing it here in Wales, putting solar PV on buildings.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Okay, thank you for that. I think the point I wanted to make is referring back to the discussion we had earlier about zonal pricing systems and the way in which they suppress enterprise, because there’s a price set on the most expensive, gas. When the wind is blowing hard, a lot of the arrays are told to close down, because they don’t want to be having to pay them for energy that they don’t think can be consumed in this country. But it’s blindingly obvious that we could be increasing our exports of energy if we had a different system, and we really do need to adjust that.

One of the ways in which we can achieve net zero is through the conservation of energy, and I think it’s one of the ways in which Wales has been very successful, and I want to give a big shout out to the sustainable energy institute attached to the architecture faculty at Cardiff University, who have certainly been one of the main drivers of the net zero energy building schemes that we now have, using timber-framed construction built in factories and that then are very, very quick to be erected, without all the problems you get with weather.

So, I think that there are two things I want to see from the UK Government. One is that they’ve got to revise their building regulations, because they are still allowing the big six house builders to build rubbish housing that is going to then dump onto the people who are going to have to take out mortgages to buy these places; they’re going to then have to retrofit the net-zero adaptations to enable them to not have to spend so much money on energy. So, every time I hear Keir Starmer or Angela Rayner talking about these wonderful 1.5 million homes they’re going to build in the south-east of England, I feel like screaming, because it is a disaster and it's a rip-off for people who would desperately like to have their own home and are going to have to live in a home that is substandard in terms of energy conservation.

The second thing I’d like to see UK Government do, and this is one for Rachel Reeves, is to reverse the disastrous decision by George Osborne in 2015 to abolish tax incentives for the private sector for renewable energy, because it really did close down a pipeline of capital to generate much more activity in this field.

I want to thank Rebecca and Lee for highlighting the local energy plans, because I was still wondering what Cardiff Council was getting up to, and I just quickly looked up Cardiff Council’s one. It’s obviously just hot off the press, because the space at the beginning for the foreword just says ‘a note from councillor’. [Laughter.] But nevertheless, despite all that, I’m sure excellent work has gone on, and the executive summary has some really interesting facts. Their overview is that Cardiff’s net-zero future could be achieved with the equivalent of 12 Lamby Way solar farms—and, for those of you not from Cardiff, Lamby Way is our recycling centre—and there are plans to build a large solar farm on this floodplain—an excellent idea, we've been talking about it for many, many years, and I can't quite understand why we haven't done it yet—as well as the equivalent of 115,000 domestic roofs with PV. This very much interests me, because I'm astonished that people who own their own homes, who decide that the roof needs re-tiling, don't put solar panels on their roofs. These are people who, in most cases, own their home outright, so they have the money to do it, and why are they not doing it? This is a conversation I've had with lots of people. 'Why have you got the roofers up there and you haven't got the solar panels going on on the south-facing roof?'

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

[Inaudible.]—to put solar on all new houses and they said it's because it's going to make the unit price too expensive for people. Most people have a mortgage they pay over many years, so adding an extra £20,000 on to a house's sale price, or £10,000, when it's a big mortgage, is worth it in the end, because it will be soon paid back, surely. What do you think? Is that something you would think about?

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I appreciate that some people are mortgaged to the hilt and they can't take on any more, but I'm not talking about—. There are plenty of people—. About 40 per cent of people own their home outright, and so it is very interesting to understand why people aren't doing what is the blindingly obvious, because the payback can be achieved within 10 years, particularly with the rise and rise of energy prices, fossil fuel prices. That is the right thing to do both for the environment and for their pocket.

Cardiff is beginning to think about combined heat and power. I don't know how many years Celsa has been in operation, but we are finally now getting combined heat and power for a lot of the homes in what used to be called Tiger Bay and are around here. I'm sure many of you will have seen all the building works going on, and that is all to do with the combined heat and power, and that's absolutely to be welcomed. But it's taken this long.

I forgot to say at the very beginning of my remarks that I need to refer Members to my declaration of interests, because I am a supporter of Awel Aman Tawe, I'm an investor in that, for which I get a small remuneration, and also my partner is an adviser to Bute Energy, which is, obviously, one of the larger companies operating with a view to developing renewable energy across Wales.

The issue, going back to the zonal pricing, as well as the community energy challenge we have, is that we have to be able to explain to people that this isn't just good for the planet, this is good for all of us in terms of it's going to cost a lot less, as long as we can ensure that we can prove that. So, it is absolutely vital that we get this zonal pricing scheme right, so that people, when they're complaining about the disruption caused by the erection of renewable energy, can see that there are going to be benefits for them, both by joining community energy schemes in their local areas, as well as being able to be certain of getting a much better price for their energy in Wales, because we are going to be a major contributor to renewable energy, which will benefit the whole of Britain and could also improve our balance in terms of imports/exports.

I'm very glad that we now have all 22 local authority signed up to local energy schemes. So, well done to Rebecca for that, because we can now scrutinise that and try and find out exactly what they're doing. One of the frustrations I've had in Cardiff has been the lack of any ambition to put solar panels on schools, because the answer was always, 'The schools are not in occupation in the summer when the sun is shining the most', but that's misunderstanding the problem, because with batteries, obviously, you can sell it to the grid at any time, whether you need the energy there that day or not. So, to my knowledge, the only solar panels that have been put on schools in Cardiff are the ones that are on the four Catholic schools—St Illtyd's Catholic High School, Mary Immaculate High School, Corpus Christi Catholic High School and St Patrick's RC Primary School—because they joined the Egni solar co-operative, which is part of Awel Aman Tawe.

I think Awel Aman Tawe is a really fantastic example of a co-operative that works, because, based in the Aman valley, it started with putting solar panels onto seven local community centres and making them more viable, but since then, it's installed dozens of solar and wind projects across south Wales and beyond. It's about to launch a rolling £30 million share offer for installing rooftop solar across Wales and England. So, well done, Awel Aman Tawe. One of the most important things is that any profits generated are reinvested into future developments and education programmes, and we certainly must have these education programmes, so that people can understand why we need to engage with this. I see I've run out of time, Presiding Officer, so I will sit down now. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much to Carolyn Thomas for putting forward this motion today. As the Member of the Senedd for Ynys Môn, you might imagine that I feel very optimistic about the potential offered to us through renewable energy.

We have a long, long, long-standing history of generating and using renewable energy on Ynys Môn. I think that the reports of the first windmills in Ynys Môn go back to something like 1303 in Newborough. And, of course, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, there was this huge growth in the development of windmills across the island, with each one able to see the next so that they could decide when to put the sails up and so on, and that was driven by drought, which meant that the watermills didn't work as well as they used to, and the corn laws and so on increasing the price of grain. And we saw on the island the value of generating energy and using that energy ourselves. And what we saw over a period of time was the growth of fossil fuels and mills being driven by steam, driven by coal, taking away the need for that use of renewable energy on a local basis on Ynys Môn. I think there are many lessons to be learned from that for us in terms of energy independence: looking at what our own needs are and trying to fulfil those needs ourselves.

Today, we have the modern versions of wind turbines. I will declare an interest that one of the three windfarms on Ynys Môn were developed partly on land that's owned by my family. But, there is so much more, of course, by now, across the island, where we can see the possibilities. Morlais, which has been mentioned already, is a scheme that I'm very proud of because of its innovation in the way that it generates energy, but also as a model of developing a new sector as a social enterprise. It's a model for how we should be developing things in future. Offshore wind energy: there are so many possible benefits for our communities from developing the port of Holyhead as a hub for the next generation of offshore windfarms. Floating offshore wind is the next generation again, then, larger and further away from land.

If we look at Wales more broadly, there are other technologies, of course. I take a great deal of interest in the proposals that were discussed this week for the Severn estuary. No, the Swansea lagoon didn't proceed and it's a shame that the UK Government failed to see the clear potential there, but let us look at what can be done in the Severn estuary now. An area where I have a great deal of interest is hydrogen and green hydrogen generation, and possibly finding hydrogen under our own land here in Wales. What we're seeing here is that there is a very, very, very varied landscape.

My appeal in a debate such as this one is for us as a Senedd to be urging the Welsh Government to ensure that we do have a national plan, a national strategy, on how to maximise the benefits of the opportunities. I think there are several layers to what we should be seeing in such a strategy, such as, what are the priorities in terms of the renewable energy sectors? I've mentioned some of them already. What do we think our strengths are? How will we maximise those strengths? How will the Welsh Government ensure that we maximise those opportunities? Where does public investment need to go in, either in and of itself or as a way to pump prime further investment by the private sector? We need to identify those opportunities. We need to identify what suits us as a nation.

Solar is an example, right? Not just in terms of what kind of solar, but how we use the different methods of energy generation. ‘Innovation’ is a word that’s been used a great deal today. Solar is an area where there is so much that we can do through innovation. Jenny Rathbone referred to things that are completely obvious, such as ensuring that schools, every public building, indeed, are covered with as many solar panels as possible, and every public car park is covered with solar panels, which would provide a roof when it rains and would generate energy when it’s sunny.

There are plans afoot on Ynys Môn at the moment that demonstrate how not to do solar. Jenny Rathbone mentioned the possibility of developing on industrial land in Cardiff. The idea of installing solar panels on thousands of acres of agricultural land, agricultural land in an area that was so productive that it needed 50 windmills in order to process the grain historically—. Why would we want to take that land out of food production, create a blemish on the landscape in an area that depends on tourism and generate ill will locally, when we could be meeting our solar needs in more innovative ways? Yes, roofs, but also by the sides of roads, fences that are also solar panels and so on. We need to be moving far more quickly than even Carolyn Thomas referred to in Europe now—targets within four years to demand solar installation on private homes. Well, we need to make progress today on that.

We need to emphasise to people how quickly you can have that investment returned. I’ve invested my own money in a relatively small system on my own home. The main incentive was to play my own part environmentally, but, yes, it will have paid for itself within seven years or so. I added one new part to the system that means that solar energy heats all the water in the house, and that pays for itself in a year. Well, surely we should be able to lead people to help them to make these decisions themselves. So—[Interruption.] Sorry, Carolyn, of course.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I agree with you regarding solar; we should be putting it on buildings, on urban land rather than agricultural land, but developers will develop, do you agree, where it's easiest and where it's cheapest? That's why it's happening on our green fields. So, do you agree that maybe we need that national plan, a strategy going forward, so that it happens not on our agricultural land?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I agree entirely. The Cabinet Secretary, I believe, mentioned the need to tie in the planning and the objective in terms of energy generation. It all needs to be dovetailed, and ensure that thousands of acres of agricultural land on Ynys Môn are not the easiest and cheapest place to install solar. That's extraction—major corporations from outwith Wales making a huge profit out of our communities. I asked one company why they chose agricultural land on Ynys Môn. Yes, that it was the cheapest way for them to do it. But then I asked, 'Well, give me one benefit of using this good agricultural land for a solar farm', and the answer I received was, 'Less agricultural traffic.' That agricultural traffic supports agricultural jobs. Those agricultural jobs sustain rural communities. Those rural communities are the warp and weft of our nation and make it what it is. So, we need to be so much more innovative. And we need to remember, of course, who is at the heart of any plans and developments: the people and communities of Wales. We need to remember what the benefits are for them.

Energy connectivity needs to be part of the Welsh Government's strategy, too. Not connecting in the cheapest way but connecting in a way that recognises the need to bring people with us. Not installing pylons across Wales or through the Tywi valley or across Ynys Môn. That's not the way to encourage people to come with us on this journey. But to make those investments to share the cost across energy users more generally, to make the investment where we can in undergrounding, and so on. I'm keeping an eye on the clock.

But there are huge opportunities in front of us. The economy can benefit. Communities can benefit when we do it in the right way, and the environment too can benefit. We're doing this. We'll need so, so, so much more energy in the years to come. That's why the discussion on nuclear in the green context is an important one to have. That is, meeting those huge future needs that will develop in coming years. That's why that discussion is an economic one and an environmental one in places such as Ynys Môn.

But there are so many layers to this. What's important is leadership from the Government, a strategy from the Government. In a debate like today's, which is a new kind of debate in the Senedd, what we need to do is to ensure that the Government hears these common themes that arise: the need for a strategy, a need for innovation, a need to maximise the opportunities that we have in terms of energy.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Firstly, can I welcome the introduction of this longer debate format? I hope this will continue. Secondly, I would like to thank Carolyn Thomas for bringing this debate forward. I think we've had a very good debate so far, and I hope people will think that after I've given my contribution.

The most widely used renewable energy types are solar energy, wind power and hydropower. We're in early days. If you compare to steam, for example, it took almost 200 years from the first steam being produced to James Watt producing something that was efficient. Bioenergy and geothermal power is significant in other countries.

I do not consider nuclear power a renewable power source. Nuclear energy requires mining uranium, which is obviously a non-renewable source. I have other criticisms of nuclear power, but I'll just leave it at that.

Renewable energy installations can be large or small and are suitable for both urban and rural areas. Renewable energy is often deployed together with further electrification. There are several benefits. Electricity can provide heat and power and it can be used to power vehicles. The aim is to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy sources in order to slow and eventually stop climate change. Climate change is caused mostly by greenhouse gas emissions, and this is having a serious effect on the environment and on weather patterns.

Look at steam power. It developed slowly over a period of several hundred years, progressing through expensive and fairly limited devices in the early seventeenth century to useful pumps in the 1700s to Watt’s improved steam engines in the late eighteenth century—260 years from the start to getting the improved version.

I'm going to look at each form of renewable energy in turn now. First, solar power. Solar power is not new, in the sense that it dates before the Christian era, when mirrors were used to light fires. Today we have solar powered heating and powerful electric vehicles. Today we capture sunlight to produce useful electricity. Solar energy involves using radiation from the sun. It can produce heat, and that heat can be used to generate electricity. It is carbon free and does not produce greenhouse gas emissions.

Solar energy is created by the nuclear fusion in the sun's core, and we get the benefit of it. Solar panels rely on sunlight. They only generate electricity during daytime, when sunlight is shining on them. Solar panels create no harmful gases, so they are environmentally friendly. If the sun is shining on a solar panel, you are able to use the electricity for your own power needs, reducing your electricity bill, and any excess can be sold to the grid. If it is cloudy, they are less effective and at night they don't generate any electricity at all.

We also have solar farms, which are large areas of land covered with thousands of solar panels that generate electricity. As Rebecca Evans is aware, because she and I share one, there is one near Morriston Hospital that generates electricity that is used in the hospital. So it travels a very short distance. It's local generation. I'm a big fan of local generation. Some solar farms have fixed solar panels that always face the same direction. Some have moving panels that turn so they always directly face the sun. This helps them generate as much electricity as possible from direct sunlight. Solar farms also have batteries that store energy so they can keep providing electricity when there's no direct sunshine. The sun heats the earth even when there is no direct sunshine. If it didn't, we wouldn't be able to live here.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

So, where next? Japan has developed transparent solar panels that can use UV light to generate electricity. These panels could be an energy-efficient replacement for windows and they would generate electricity 24 hours a day. Research in America has contributed to designing solar panels that can take heat energy from infrared radiation from the sun, which would also work 24 hours a day. So, we've got a way to go, but we're going in the right direction.

On wind turbines, wind is a growing source of reliable and clean energy around the world, and a crucial part of the journey to net zero. It has been used for thousands of years. In 200 BC, wind-powered water pumps were being integrated in China and windmills have been used throughout the world, including in the middle east, Europe and Britain.

In Denmark, wind power was an important part of decentralised electrification in the first quarter of the twentieth century. By 1908, there were 72 wind-driven electric generators from 5 kW to 25 kW. Major progress took place in 1978, which is less than 50 years ago, when the world's first multi-megawatt wind turbines were constructed. It pioneered many of the technologies used in modern wind turbines. Especially important was the wing construction, and it used help from German aeronautical specialists. The power plant that was capable of delivering 2 MW had tubular towers, pitch-controlled wings and three blades. That looks familiar.

Danish commercial wind power development stressed incremental improvements to capacity and efficiency, based on extensive serial production of turbines, and the practical consequence of this was that all commercial wind turbines use a lightweight three-blade upwind design. Offshore wind power began to expand beyond fixed-bottom shallow water turbines in the first decades of the 2000s. The world's first operational deep-water large capacity floating wind turbine became operational off Norway in 2009. That's 15 years ago.

Two myths exist about wind turbines. The first is that they're very noisy. They click when they come on but otherwise they are silent. They want them to be silent because they want to turn the wind energy into electrical energy; they don't want to turn it into noise. The second is that they are a bird graveyard. I've visited several windfarms and I've never seen a dead bird.

Turning to tidal lagoons, the Swansea bay tidal lagoon is a potentially groundbreaking renewable energy project located in Swansea. It's designed to be the world's first energy-generating tidal lagoon with a capacity of 320 MW, capable of powering approximately 120,000 houses for 120 years. The lagoon features underwater turbines and aims to contribute significantly to the UK's energy strategy, providing a sustainable energy source while helping to reduce carbon emissions.

Unfortunately, the short-sightedness of the Conservative Government stopped it happening. We know tidal lagoons are renewable and sustainable. Tidal energy is generated by the gravitational forces of the moon and sun, making it a consistent source of power. It's very predictable. Unlike wind and solar energy, tidal patterns are predictable, allowing for reliable energy generation. Tidal information is produced several years into the future, but it can be produced for the lifetime of a tidal lagoon. People know when the tide is going to come in and out.

There's low environmental impact. Tidal energy systems typically have a minimal impact on the environment compared to fossil fuels. There are no greenhouse gases during operation. They have a long lifespan. Tidal energy infrastructure such as turbines and barrages can have an operational life exceeding 50 years. We're not quite sure how long they can go. On energy efficiency, tidal lagoon plants can achieve high efficiency rates, converting a significant portion of kinetic energy from the tide into electrical energy.

We need improved battery technology. The future battery developments could include graphene-based, aluminium air, magnesium iron, calcium iron, zinc air, quantum dot batteries, lithium sulphur batteries, sodium iron batteries, silicon anode batteries, solid-state batteries. I don't know which one of these will be the most successful, or if any other battery technology will to be invented. Can I just give you a comparison with videos? Remember Betamax, followed by VHS, followed by Blu-ray, followed by downloads? Now, we have on demand. I think the same is going to happen with batteries. What we are waiting for is a big jump in battery technology. That will be a major advance.

We are in the early years of development of renewable energy. Some will be more successful than others. Key to the development of new renewable energy will be the efficient collection of ultraviolet infrared radiation of the sun, the development of a large number of tidal lagoons, the creation of local energy provision. The grid was developed to produce electricity at a power station and distribute it. The ability of the grid to accept energy from businesses and individuals is a huge technological success. We have the capacity to generate electricity everywhere, with all areas becoming self-sufficient or nearly self-sufficient. Too many communities want someone else to generate their energy.

Finally, the key is battery technology—there are a lot of possibilities. Improving storage and the ability to provide a cheap storage facility is the most important future development. The alternative is much of the earth becoming uninhabitable. Finally, we are in the early years of the development of renewable energy. The comparison I use is with rail. When it started, I'm sure there were people saying it was quicker by horse, but as it developed, we had improvements available at speed. I expect renewable energy to do the same.