Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 5 March 2025

308 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon, all, and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language. The first question is from Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

1. How does the Welsh Government ensure all its spending decisions represent value for money? OQ62391

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Welsh Government continues to prioritise value for money in all of our spending. The strategic integrated impact assessment, published alongside the budget, interrogates all spending decisions to align policy outcomes and best value principles.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. While I accept that 'value' can be a subjective term, we have to base value-for-money decisions on those representing value to the majority of the public, not those that politicians value. When we look at yesterday's budget, it saw increases for things like international development, saw continued spending for overseas embassies, while at the same time cutting funds for Welsh in education and Llais. Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh public expects its Government to fix Wales, not to pretend to be an independent nation with diplomatic missions. How successful was the Washington embassy in saving Welsh steel and aluminium products from Trump's tariffs? With tight public finances here at home and a host of issues facing public services in Wales, will you now agree to close all the Welsh Government's overseas offices? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I start from a different point to the one articulated by the Member. The Welsh Government budget quite rightly responds to a very wide range of needs. Some of those needs are experienced by broad parts of the population, and some of those are much more specific needs. We wouldn't say, would we, 'We won't spend any money on people with disabilities because only 20 per cent of the Welsh population say they are disabled'? So, I think the budget is a good deal more sophisticated than that supplementary question would suggest. I'm very proud of the work that Wales does, in our very modest way, in the field of international development. Altaf Hussain is right to say there was an extra £50,000 in the international development budget line announced yesterday. That is to contribute to the fantastic work that many clinicians from Wales, in their own time and voluntarily, do as part of our work with Africa—most often focused on the needs of women, and women who have nowhere else to receive the help that they need, other than through the voluntary effort of so many clinicians in the Welsh NHS, with that very modest support from the Welsh Government.

As to closing all our international offices, well, of course I'm not going to agree to do that. Our international offices, almost always co-located with embassies in other parts of the world, are there not simply to raise awareness of Wales—as they all have been in this week of St David's Day celebrations—but they're there to bring business to Wales. The investment that we have recently seen in Newport in the former Newport Wafer Fab factory, investment from America, arose directly from a contact with our office in the United States. Now, I'm pleased to see the leader of the opposition in his place, because, when he was in Washington recently, he said that he took his role very seriously as leader of the opposition—I'm sure that's true—and that he wanted to be a First Minister to have a presence on the international stage. He won't be having that for Wales if he doesn't have some people in other parts of the world representing Wales and the Welsh Government that he hopes to lead.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to mitigate the impact of national insurance increases on organisations providing public services in Wales? OQ62404

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. I have fully allocated the Welsh Government’s budget, providing an additional £1.6 billion to support front-line public services and reflect devolved needs. Once we know the funding that will come to Wales to help with public sector employer contributions, that funding will be made known to those services and passed to them immediately.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

There’s a big problem here, isn’t there, Cabinet Secretary, and that is that many public services are actually contracted out for others to deliver rather than being directly delivered by people who are employed by the public sector. We already know that the cost to the public sector of its directly employed employees is in the hundreds of millions of pounds. And we know that it’s likely that it’s hundreds of millions more that will be required in order to support those other organisations that are delivering critically important services—public services like people working in care homes, domiciliary care, individuals who might be collecting waste from the kerbside, filling potholes, providing home-to-school transport for people. What assurances have you had from the UK Government that the costs associated with providing those public services, as a result of the additional employer national insurance contributions, will be met by your colleagues in the UK Treasury to make sure that those services can continue to be provided unhindered?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Darren Millar for that further question, Llywydd. The confirmation we’ve had from the UK Government is that the Chancellor will use the Office for National Statistics definition of 'public sector employees' when she provides money to public services to enable them to meet the costs of additional employer national insurance contributions. Now, of course, Darren Millar is right that that definition does not capture some of the organisations to which he has made reference. And, as I’ve explained previously, at the Finance Committee and, I think, here on the floor of the Senedd, I cannot release money that comes to Wales for investment in our public services in order to meet a bill that has not been created here in Wales. However, because this is a much better budget, we are able to increase the funding we are providing to third sector organisations, and, for example, yesterday, on the floor, during the budget debate, I was able to highlight the further addition to the hourly rate for childcare providers. It was £5 an hour; it’s going to be £6.40 an hour now. Now, that is in recognition of a range of cost pressures—in food, in training, in premises—that that sector faces, and it will be for those sectors to use the resources they have to meet the different demands on them.

I want to respond to the point that Darren Millar made, though—it’s an important point—about the fact that different local authorities have made different decisions about the extent to which they’ve retained in-house and contracted-out services. And I want to try and recognise that in the way in which we will hand on to local government the money that will come to Wales through the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So, we’re going to do that through the distribution and finance sub-groups that we've set up. My officials have already had discussions with local authority directors of finance. I’ve no doubt that, as in all the decisions we make about funding local authorities, some will be more satisfied than others with the eventual outcome, but I want to give the leader of the opposition an assurance that we recognise the point that he has made and we’re trying to find the best solution to it in a dialogue with our local authority partners.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I just wanted to follow up in relation to Darren’s points. I hear that you’re not in a position at the moment, because you’re not clear about the kind of financial issues ahead, but I think it’s still incumbent on us all to keep this in our minds, for you and for any allocations of funds going forward.

Just two other additional areas: just yesterday, we heard that Oakwood Theme Park, Wales’s largest theme park, announced its closure after 40 years, and they’ve cited national insurance changes as a key factor, and also, major charities like Platfform, Marie Curie and Tenovus Cancer Care face more than £250,000 in extra annual costs. So, we've got a range of organisations that are really struggling and there's a direct impact on one of the most iconic places of entertainment here in Wales. So, I'm just seeking your reassurances that, as you go forward, you'll be thinking of those organisations, and possibly, if there's an opportunity, to reach out as well and look at a package for Oakwood right now. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Jane Dodds. Well, of course, the impact of employer national contributions is very much in my mind and that of my colleagues. I raised these points with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury when he was in Cardiff last week, as did my colleagues from Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Chief Secretary was clear: the Government, in order to provide the additional funding for public services and to meet some of the holes in the budget that the incoming Government inherited, have to raise money. They’ve chosen to do it in this way. They’ve made their decisions about the extent to which help will be available, and he gave no encouragement that we were to expect help beyond that which the UK Government has already outlined.

The commitment I’ve given, and I’ll give it again this afternoon, is that, for these purposes—and this is very much in breach of a fundamental principle of devolution, which is that any money that comes to Wales is for Wales to decide and for the Cabinet to put proposals to the Senedd—and in this case, I’m prepared to give a commitment in advance of the facts that when the money arrives, it will go straight out to those organisations for that purpose and for nothing else.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. First, we have the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the dust has just settled on yesterday’s proceedings, where, of course, you were successful in having your budget proceed through the Senedd. But also, one of the debates yesterday was in relation to income tax, and you said that the Welsh Government will commission an external review of current income tax powers. Could you give us a timeline of this external review and more detail about what it will contain?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

My thanks to the official spokesperson on finance matters for that question, Llywydd. I agree, things are calmer today than they were yesterday. Well, I could say to him first of all that the work has already begun, because I took the opportunity of having the Scottish finance Minister here in Wales on Thursday to get a first sense from her of the way in which Scotland has used the wider set of income tax variation powers that they have, compared to the powers that we have here in Wales. I’m very grateful to the Scottish Minister for her willingness to share the information she had and to say that she will provide us with further information on those powers that they have found most useful and those powers that they have applied with, maybe, less success.

Now, I want to recruit to the external review a panel of people who can help us to shape the work that they do. I don’t just want to provide them with a preset remit, because these will be experts in their own right, and I’m happy to be in a dialogue with them about where they will concentrate their efforts. I would hope to have a report available before the end of this Senedd term. This is not work I think we can expect to complete in the final year of this Senedd, but I do want an incoming Government to have the benefit of that work so that they can look to see whether there are more effective powers than we have at present. Llywydd, the powers we’ve had have never been used and, as each year ticks by without them being used, I think what that is telling us is that these powers are probably unusable as they are currently constructed. If we want to be able to take more responsibility here for the money we spend, for making decisions about how that money is raised, we need tools that are genuinely capable of being used by the Senedd. So far, I don’t think the powers that we have are looking as though they will ever be in that category. That’s why we need the work.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'm grateful for your response, Cabinet Secretary in outlining some of the detail that you touched on yesterday as well, and I recognise the conversation that you had with the Scottish finance Minister. You'll know, of course, that, under the SNP in Scotland, people in Scotland are paying some of the heaviest taxes. Anybody earning over £30,000 a year in Scotland pays the most taxes anywhere in the United Kingdom. So, is that the sort of vision that you have in mind for workers here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, the tools themselves are neutral, Llywydd, aren't they? The tools, if they are usable, can be used to reduce taxes as well as to raise them, and political choices that are made elsewhere aren't to be read as making direct implications for the way that they would be used by the Senedd. What I'm interested in is having a usable set of measures that allow us to use the powers we have in a way that responds better to the needs of people in Wales. And we will see what the experts tell us about this. As it happens, using Welsh rates of income tax as we have so far has proportionately raised more money for Wales than the Scottish package has raised for Scotland. So, there are some interesting and evidence-based things that we can now learn, given the contrasting experience of the two nations. I want our policy to be evidence informed. I want to provide a set of options that an incoming Government can consider, but I don't want to anticipate the way in which any Government would use the tools that, by themselves, are neutral.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'm grateful for, again, your response to that, Cabinet Secretary, and you're absolutely right that Governments should also be looking to see where taxes can be reduced and not always increased. Of course, people up and down Wales, though, would be worried that the Labour Party would be seeking to hike up taxes, as they have done with the national insurance increases in Westminster and as they are doing with the inheritance tax for family farms as well. The record from Labour Governments for far too long is to increase taxes on people; particularly right now when people are in desperate need to have more cash in their pockets, it's a real worry for them when a Labour Government here in Cardiff is seeking to expand its powers on taxation. And the only party, of course, that would be looking to put more money back in people's pockets is the Conservative Party, which recognises that people in control of their money know how to best spend their money, and we should, as you rightly said, be looking to options to reduce tax where it's needed as well. So, I wonder, you said in your statement yesterday that now is not the right time to increase income tax levels; when would you think is the right time to increase income tax levels?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I think I indicated in an earlier answer, Llywydd, that I think that the powers as currently constructed are unlikely to lead to that outcome. I think that Conservative Members will want to think carefully about what they say on this matter given that their Government increased the rate of tax-take in the British economy to a 60-year high during their tenure in office. It's one thing for the party to say that they have ambitions to cut taxes, but in fact they raised taxes and raised them again. Fiscal drag has meant, here in Wales, that there are thousands and thousands more people paying tax than there were before his party made that decision. So, I'm not disputing that that may be the ambition of the Conservative Party, but their record in office was exactly the opposite.

The Member is right, though, Llywydd, taxes can go down as well as up. I see that Pembrokeshire council this year is reducing the premium that it set on second homes in the county from 200 per cent to 150 per cent. I'm pleased to say that three local authorities in Wales have lowered their council tax rises for next year as a result of the floor that was agreed between the Government and the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats. So, there are examples in Wales where taxes go down, and that's in pretty sharp contradistinction to what happened when his party was in power in Westminster.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, today your Labour counterpart in Westminster, Rachel Reeves, has announced plans for billions of pounds-worth of spending cuts, which will fall particularly heavily on welfare, and this of course comes on the back of the decision to withdraw the winter fuel allowance from thousands of Welsh pensioners, a step that not even the original architect of austerity, George Osborne, dared to countenance. Can I ask, therefore: yesterday, you opened your speech on the budget by proclaiming we can turn the corner on the insidious legacy of austerity; based on what you've heard today, do you want to revise your prior optimism that austerity is on its way out?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I've seen no announcement today, Llywydd. I've been in meetings all morning, so if there has been an announcement, then I have not seen it. I've seen press speculation, but that's very different to any announcement from the Treasury. If there is to be an announcement, I'll wait till I see it.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Well, I'm sure we'll await that update from Welsh Government. I assume from your response, then, that no prior warning or discussions have taken place with the Welsh Government.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

If I could turn to another issue, language learning apps like Duolingo have an important role to play in terms of reaching the target of a million Welsh speakers, something that Carwyn Jones, as First Minister, recognised, as he wrote directly to the company asking them to develop the Welsh course. Although the company stopped developing its Welsh course in 2023, the course still has 774,000 active learners at the moment, and more than 3 million people have tried the course since 2016. As you know, the course is run at common European framework of reference for languages level A2 at the moment, but of course the Government's aim through the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill is for all pupils to reach level B2. In response to a letter from the Chair of the culture and Welsh language committee, your predecessor, Jeremy Miles, said in November 2023:

'In the longer-term we have agreed to meet regularly as we develop the proposals in the Welsh Education Bill and a single continuum for learning Welsh, and to consider if Duolingo has a role as a resource to support teaching and learning as people progress along the continuum.'

Could I ask you, therefore: have you met with Duolingo? Will you commit to write to them to ask them to resume the course, and try to continue with the discussion in line with what Jeremy Miles said would happen?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, thank you for that question, and the Duolingo course has been extremely successful. I remember during COVID, I read that the Duolingo Welsh language course was one of the most popular, so it's disappointing to me that Duolingo has decided not to invest more in the courses that they provide. They say that they will continue to provide the courses that they have at the moment. They will continue to be available to people, but they aren't going to invest more on developing the courses that they currently have in the future. And of course, the Government has been in contact with Duolingo, seeking to persuade them not to take that step and to proceed with the successful courses that they provide at the moment. The response that we've received is that they want to use the resource that they have to develop other courses. They haven't closed the door on any future developments, but at the moment, they have not changed their position.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that response, and I'm sure you would have support from a number of people in this Senedd in order to try and get Duolingo to move on that, especially given that they have changed in terms of Norwegian, and also as there were so many volunteers who were ready to give their time and who are still eager to do that. So, if there was an opportunity for us to continue to encourage Duolingo, we would be very supportive of that.

Of course, it's important that we do protect the language in the world around us and not just in the virtual world, and protecting Welsh place names is an integral part of that. You will be aware of the co-operation agreement that committed to ensuring that Welsh place names in the built and natural environment are protected and promoted. This, of course, includes the protection of landscape names, an elements that stakeholders including Cylch yr Iaith are concerned to see have received less attention as part of the work that Cadw and others are doing on behalf of the Government on this issue. Does the Government intend, therefore, to commission further work on this issue, and if so, when, and if you don't intend to do so, why not?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, just to say first of all that what Heledd Fychan has said is correct; the work that we've done already has focused on names that people use—not in the countryside, not in terms of landscape—and that was for a number of reasons. As people were carrying out the research, they came across things that they couldn't deal with within the contract available to them. I have a meeting in the diary to speak to Siân Gwenllian about the report that we've received, and to see how we can now progress and do more work in the area where the research at present hasn't gained the ground that we had initially expected.

So, a lot of work has been done, and I think that that will be of great assistance to us, but there is still more to be done, and I'm eager to continue to work with those in other parties who are interested in the same area.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

3. How have invest-to-save projects been emulated by other organisations funded by the Welsh Government? OQ62375

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Mike Hedges for that, Llywydd. Over £200 million has been invested in the invest-to-save fund, with around £3 generated for every £1 invested. Best practice has been shared through projects within local health boards, Natural Resources Wales and recently the strategic road network through its LED road and tunnel lighting project.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I'm an advocate for the use of invest-to-save. Upfront investment can reduce future costs. Apart from when invest-to-save was used to cover the costs, mainly ICT costs, of the creation, via merger, of Natural Resources Wales, most of the expenditure has been used to reduce future costs. Examples include improved ICT expenses systems that pay the actual mileage, not the rounded mileage for one health board; the use of LED lighting to reduce energy costs at another health board. Why have schemes such as these not been used by every health board in Wales, and can invest-to-save be used to fund artificial intelligence investment in one health board to then be copied by all other health boards?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, can I first of all thank Mike Hedges for his consistent interest in this topic? I think I discussed with him on an earlier occasion the fact that we are looking to see how the next phase of invest-to-save can be designed, given that it was disrupted by the COVID pandemic when there wasn't the capacity to be carrying out the sorts of activities that the fund has generally supported. I'm very interested in whether or not we can use the fund for AI purposes. It would certainly be my hope that where one health board is succeeding in using invest-to-save strategies, that becomes material to other boards as well. I think the Member may have heard Jeremy Miles's statement on Betsi Cadwaladr yesterday when he made specific reference to the use of generative AI in the health board in the fields of breast and prostate cancer. We know that stroke care right across Wales is being really radically improved through the use of AI in analysing scans. Dermatology has used this form of artificial intelligence already.

It seems to me that health, and particularly the investigative side of health, is a really ripe area for artificial intelligence with the ability to analyse millions of previous scans, for example, very rapidly indeed and then to see whether the scan in front of you shows any signs that ought to be of clinical interest. There's real opportunity here. The debate about AI is, quite rightly, characterised by will it be a help or will it do us harm, but in the field that Mike Hedges has highlighted, I think there are prospects for advances; provided it is safe and ethical in its use, then AI has real potential.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Currently, whilst people are waiting for their council tax bills to drop on their doormats, there's a lot of concern about the levels of council tax increase across Wales. Now, as we know, Government finance can play a significant role in improving public service and driving innovation, but, at the same time, it has to be with the principles of prudence and financial probity. Now, the invest-to-save fund has been running since 2009, and the Welsh Government, as you've rightly said, has appropriated £200 million to over 180 projects. You're looking to support that even more. Other Welsh public sector organisations are now having to use this fund to support some of their own initiatives. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that there is a case for the need for more longer term funding options to be made available to our Welsh public services, along with ensuring that this funding and any funding provided to local government is used effectively, providing best value for our taxpayers, and that financial probity is upheld at all times?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I very much agree with the points that the Member has made, Llywydd, about the importance of prudent use of public resources, probity in the way that they are invested, and making sure that best value is achieved through that. I know that Janet Finch-Saunders will remember that, the week before the half-term break, we took regulations through the Senedd, derived from the previous UK Government's Procurement Act 2023, designed exactly to do that—to make some of the processes easier so that local authorities and others can genuinely pursue best value in the investment they make through spending very large amounts of public money. So, I agree with much of what she said.

It's an interesting point that the Member makes as well about longer term investments with longer term paybacks. For non-public authorities, we have financial transactions capital, which operates in just that way; you have to pay it back, but it's sometimes as long as 30 years. In the work we're doing to reshape invest-to-save for the future, I'll make sure that that idea is fed into those discussions.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the UK Government about the Westminster Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill to ensure there is a requirement to record whether a patient is a Welsh speaker, and if so to undertake the necessary assessments in Welsh? OQ62392

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for the question. Llywydd, the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill is a UK Parliament private Members' Bill. If the Bill proceeds to the next stage, we will consider the implications for Wales as part of the legislative consent process, including any language requirements.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. I voted in favour of the Bill when it was discussed here in the Senedd, and it is fair to say that there are concerns about safeguarding arising from the Bill and we need to be careful about that. We also must ensure that the situation in Wales and the position of the Welsh language is reflected in this Bill.

Now, I'm sure you will have seen the letter from a number of medical and palliative professionals across Wales raising questions as to why there is no requirement to have an assessment through the medium of Welsh if one is a first-language Welsh speaker, or indeed in any language that the patient speaks, and they raise a number of concerns on that issue. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell us, if things proceed to the next stage, that you will ensure that this unique situation in Wales is reflected in the Bill, and will you ensure that you inform the Westminster Government of that, but, most importantly, ensure that the people of Wales are safeguarded? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much for the supplementary question. May I thank the Member for those additional questions? I recently re-read his contribution—a very emotional contribution—in the debate in Senedd on assisted dying. Today, this question focuses on one of the practical and operational issues that have to be tackled if the Bill does succeed. The Government continues to be fully committed to ensuring that the Welsh language is not treated less favourably than English and recognises the importance of the Welsh language in the context of assisted dying. 'More than words' is the Welsh Government's plan to strengthen Welsh language services in health and social care, and central to our approach is the principle of the operational offer, which places responsibility on health and social care providers to offer services through the medium of Welsh, rather than on the patient or service users to have to ask for them.

Now, there are amendments that have been tabled in the name of Liz Saville-Roberts and Jack Abbot, one of the Labour MPs, which, if they succeed—. And the Westminster Government doesn't have a position on this, because it's a private Members' Bill, but, if the amendments do succeed, they're going to impose duties on health bodies to provide not just services through the medium of Welsh but specific things in the situation that the Bill refers to, and we will have an opportunity, when we have discussions on the floor of the Senedd, to support those things that have been proposed.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Noswaith dda. Several healthcare professionals in north Wales have copied me in on their campaign letters about the specific needs of Welsh speakers relating to the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill. After I referred this to the cross-party group on hospice and palliative care, which I chair, Hospice UK shared this with their colleagues who are engaging with the UK Parliament Bill committee on amendments, and assisted dying will be a key agenda item at the joint meeting of the cross-party groups on hospice and palliative care and on funerals and bereavement on 2 April, when Baroness Finlay will be speaking.

As the letter states, quote, 'It will not be possible to make any assessment of the presence or absence of coercion if the co-ordinating and independent doctors and any other healthcare professionals involved have the necessary conversations in English with a Welsh speaker.' What engagement have you, therefore, had with the Westminster Bill committee, or will you be having with the UK Government, regarding both this and last October's vote in this Parliament against supporting this legislation in the Westminster Parliament?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, a number of points there, Llywydd; first of all, to thank Mark Isherwood for the work he does in chairing that cross-party group, and the group for the work that they do, and I'm sure that the meeting early in April with Baroness Finlay will be a very informative one. I just need to make the point again that this is not a Government Bill, so there is no Government-to-Government discussion of it, because the Government in Westminster isn't responsible for the Bill. The Bill is a private Members' Bill, and our own procedures for dealing with any legislative consent motion are different under private Members' Bills than they are under Government Bills.

What I think is important, as I said in my answer to Rhys ab Owen, is that there are amendments tabled now to the Bill that do a number of very important things in answering some of the concerns that have been raised. The amendments, for example, would place a requirement for medical practitioners when conducting preliminary discussions to discuss with the person their preferred language of Welsh or English; if the person's preferred language is Welsh, that there will be a further requirement for at least one member of a multidisciplinary panel to have fluent proficiency in Welsh; and if services or functions are to be provided to that individual, then there will be an entitlement for that person seeking assistance to end their own life to have those services in the language that they would prefer, and then a further requirement for the medical records specifically to record that those choices had been made available.

I think the points that have been raised in the correspondence are very important ones. There are now moves to put new safeguards into that Bill. As a private Members' Bill, the Government won't be taking a view on it, either at Westminster or here, but there are Welsh Members of Parliament who are involved in the Committee Stage of that Bill, and they will now have those amendments in front of them.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

5. How will the Welsh Government’s 2025-26 final budget deliver for Delyn? OQ62407

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Hannah Blythyn, Llywydd. The final budget includes a funding floor for Welsh local authorities. Flintshire is a beneficiary of that funding, which will support the council in serving the residents of Delyn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you for all of your work to determine and deliver this budget. It's right to say that it's the budget that turns a corner for our country and sets us on the road to recovery from austerity, and it is a budget that will make a difference for Delyn, from the additional funding for childcare and extra money for social care, right down to the investment towards road repairs. It's certainly a stark contrast to previous years, when the Welsh Government, under a UK Tory Government, had to make tough choices about where to make so-called savings.

But, sadly, the reality of those 14 years of austerity means it will take more than just one budget, whether here or in Westminster, to undo the impact on our public services. I recognise the difference that the funding floor will make to local authorities like my own in Flintshire, but they do still face being in an unenviable position of having to make those difficult decisions when it comes to setting a budget, which I'm sure you can empathise with, Cabinet Secretary. Whilst I realise you haven't quite had a chance to catch your breath after this budget, I would like to ask: are you still able to make clear yours and the Welsh Government's commitment to working together in respect of future funding settlements, in order to ensure a sustainable financial future for our public services and those who provide them?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Hannah Blythyn very much for those points, and for the support she gave to the budget yesterday. Flintshire is a beneficiary from the funding floor, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some very tough decisions that local authorities in all parts of Wales will face. What I ask them always to do is to make sure that they are in a close dialogue with their local communities, either explaining why they've come to the decisions they have come to, or making sure that those decisions reflect the influence of their local populations.

I thank Hannah Blythyn for drawing to the surface a couple of issues that we didn't manage to spend much time on yesterday. One of the issues we will certainly be continuing to discuss with the Welsh Local Government Association and local authorities is the fact that there will now be £120 million-worth of local government borrowing, supported by revenue from the Welsh Government, for them to attend to the needs of local roads and pavements. Now, we've come to that headline agreement. There's more discussion with our local authority colleagues to make sure that that money is disbursed in the best possible way, and, over the coming year, on the very important work that the finance sub-group does, in conjunction with my colleague Jayne Bryant, the Welsh Government will continue to be around that table and to work with those who do so much to provide services that make a difference to daily life in every part of Wales.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

6. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about the Local Government Pension Scheme consolidation consultation which closed in January? OQ62383

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Minister of State for Local Government and English Devolution and the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government have corresponded on the 'Fit for the future' consultation. The consultation covered proposals on asset pooling, local and regional investment and scheme governance.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that response, and thank you too for the letter that I received on Monday, along with the consultation. You noted in that letter that the UK Government recognises the benefits of the local government pension scheme for Wales and had shared its proposals beforehand with you as a Government. Can I ask whether there was any cause of concern for you from what they did share with you at that point, and, once the UK Government has come to final conclusions following the consultation, do they have an intention to have further discussions with you as a Government?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for the supplementary questions. I'm sure that the UK Government does intend to continue discussing things with us as a Government here in Wales, and I can tell other Members that, because some people have been concerned about that.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The letter that we received from the Minister in London was very clear. He says: 'I would like to take the opportunity to reassure you that I do not see the need for the Welsh pool to merge with English funds. I believe that to do so would risk losing the benefits of a pool with a strong mutual interest in optimising investment within the Welsh economy.'

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

So, that's important, and I did appreciate sight of that.

There is one other thing in the Westminster Bill where we're still engaging in discussions with the UK Government.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

They would like to see all pension pools established as Financial Conduct Authority regulated investment management companies. The Welsh pool is one of three that don't organise themselves in that way. I think we will want to be in a dialogue with the UK Government to ensure that, if the FCA-regulated method does become compulsory for all pools, there's sufficient time for the Welsh pool to make those adjustments. I don't think we are necessarily against the idea, but we do want to make sure that the Welsh pool has time to adjust its operation to bring itself in line with any of those new requirements.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

7. What consideration did the Cabinet Secretary give to providing funding to support the music sector when determining the draft budget 2025-26? OQ62387

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the significant extra investment for Wales's cultural and arts sectors in the draft budget reflected our commitment to these important areas. The final budget provides an additional £4.4 million, which, taken together, represents an 8.5 per cent increase for the sector when compared to this year's revenue budget.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. In my own constituency we have a long tradition of making music of the highest calibre, and so often that's as a result of volunteers, such as Montgomeryshire Youth Music, who do excellent work in this area. There is great work done, I know, also by the National Plan for Music in Powys, which is really helpful in supporting the activity for children and young people.

Now, the funding that you mentioned, Cabinet Secretary, I very much welcome that, but I wonder if you could set out a road map to ensure that funding is increased in real terms over the coming years to help support the sector from the grass roots, to schools, to extra-curricular activities. And what more can you do, and can the Welsh Government do, to ensure that the Government works with voluntary organisations, such as Montgomeryshire Youth Music, to ensure that the money allocated is effective and ensures the very best impact?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Russell George for that, and I'm sure that the lives of many young people in his constituency are shaped by the opportunities they have to take part in music and to benefit from the fantastic voluntary effort that so many people make to make sure that those opportunities go on being made available. I'm not able to set out a route-map today, Llywydd, because I don't have a budget beyond the next financial year. But, on 11 June, the Chancellor promises that we will see the results of the comprehensive spending review, and that will provide a three-year horizon for revenue spending and a four-year horizon for capital expenditure here in Wales, and, at that point, I think being able to map a funding platform into the future will become more possible for us.

Of course, the decisions on allocations of money are not made by Ministers, they're made by the Arts Council of Wales, but the Government, once those decisions are made, of course, remains anxious to work alongside our local authorities and our major arts bodies to ensure that they go on enriching the lives of people here in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 8, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

8. What is the Welsh Government doing to protect households in Wales from council tax rises? OQ62400

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the setting of budgets and council tax levels every year is a matter for local authorities themselves. I ask councils to consider carefully the balance between maintaining services and the financial pressures on households, and to engage meaningfully with communities on the decisions they make.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. I highlighted in my contribution on the local government settlement yesterday my concern that Neath Port Talbot's budget consultation stated that the Welsh Government had assumed council tax will rise by 9.3 per cent across Wales, and their council tax was suggested to rise by 7 per cent. As I said in here yesterday, it was something I'd never seen published before, and something in itself that could push up council tax unnecessarily or disproportionately. The Cabinet Secretary assured me that the Welsh Government had not published any assumptions.

My interest in that consultation came as I have a daughter who now lives in the area. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you reassure me that the Welsh Government do not publish council tax increase assumptions, and that you will look into why a council would publish such a thing? It would seem to be possibly to justify their own council tax increase.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I'm sure my colleague Jayne Bryant will be looking into how that came to be said. I can give the Member an assurance that the Welsh Government does not publish any assumption of that sort. The working group of the Welsh Local Government Association does make an assumption itself when it is providing advice through the WLGA. My understanding is that it was nothing like the figure quoted in Neath Port Talbot.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

1. What is the Cabinet Secretary doing to support the agri-food sector in North Wales? OQ62381

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Sam. The Welsh Government supports the food and drink industry in north Wales through a variety of support programmes, including Grŵp Llandrillo Menai food technology centre, extensive capital and trade development support, and also innovation and technology networks to support future growth.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I'm glad you recognise the importance of the agri-food sector in north Wales. Of course, that does include the importance of export opportunities for food and drink producers in the region, and in particular in Wrexham, where there seems to be more international attention than ever because of the success of the football club in Wrexham.

I want to focus on some particular opportunities there with exports to the United States, and some of the potential barriers that may be in the way in the future. I'd like to highlight companies like Jones' Village Bakery, with their American-style pancakes, and Wrexham Lager, which is now sold in 29 states in the USA, from New York to California. It's brilliant for those businesses, brilliant for employees in north Wales and good for Wales to see those brands in the United States as well. Of course, we're all aware of a new President in the White House in the USA and some of the rhetoric on display with regard to tariffs and potential trade wars in the future, and those trade barriers would be terrible for Welsh businesses as well, in particular those businesses I've highlighted there in Wrexham.

So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, what conversations Welsh Government are having with your counterparts in the British Government and the British embassy in Washington, to make sure that the voices of Welsh agri-food businesses are heard. And what measures are being taken to prevent the sector from being impacted by any potential tariffs in the future? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Sam, thank you and it's such a good question. In fact, I was out, as I've reported to the Senedd before, last year, at the New York climate change conference, which was integral to our role as a smaller nation that punches above its weight. Whilst I was there, I actually met with some of those suppliers in the wider food chain and looked at the opportunities and the success that we already have in markets in places such as Texas. Texas is the size of a nation itself and the demand there for Welsh produce, including things like cheese, is phenomenal. I'd applaud those brands that are well recognised, such as the bakery you've mentioned, Wrexham Lager, and so on, and the role of sport tied into those has a real pivotal role in helping us to drive into those export markets as well. And curiously, in light of the earlier discussion about the role of Wales internationally and working with UK Government, as well as our own trade missions, to promote that very heavily, so our big markets in the middle east, in America, and so on.

But certainly, Sam, I can see where you're pushing on this question. We will continue to engage, as we always do, with UK Government counterparts on the importance of hearing the voice of Wales, and Welsh primary producers and farmers, but also the whole Welsh food and drink sector, which has been such a success—it grew by 10 per cent in the last year that we have data for, which was 2023; we're exceeding our expectations—but making sure that, in any trade deals, whether those are with the USA or other trade deals internationally, they do not disbenefit and, in fact, they're to the benefit of our producers and our supply chain.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's preparedness for adverse weather events? OQ62406

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Pred. We work closely with our partners in local resilience forums and across the responder community in Wales to plan for, to respond to and to recover from a broad range of risks, including those associated with adverse weather risks.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

The storms that battered Wales in recent months have taken a heavy toll on the communities I represent. Homes that were left uninsurable after the storms of 2020 were flooded again just before Christmas. The same happened to rugby clubs up and down the Valleys from Caerleon to New Tredegar.

One of the more disturbing things for me was the appearance of a large sinkhole that opened up in a widowed pensioner's back garden in Newbridge. It was inspected by officials from Caerphilly County Borough Council and it was subsequently decided that there was no obligation to repair the sinkhole. This is despite the fact that it clearly bordered on to a public lane, and the issue may well have emanated from a public asset, which, seen with my own eyes, I could see was also incredibly dangerous. Imagine the stress of this just before Christmas when you live alone and rely on a pension to get by. After my office intervened, the local authority saw sense and made the hole secure for the resident, and they're currently undertaking a permanent repair to prevent further damage to the local drainage network.

Do you agree that there is an urgent need to review how we approach incidents like this, and do you also agree that there is a need for additional funding for repairs and mitigation as a result of the increasingly extreme weather that we actually face?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks for that, and I think all of us in the Chamber, genuinely, our hearts go out to all of those who've been affected by recent storm events, because we know that there will be more coming as well. This is now going to become, in some ways, commonplace, so we have to actually prepare for those eventualities and how we respond to them. I was really pleased, in the light of storm Bert, storm Darragh, and indeed the separate in characteristic, but equally traumatic in many ways, incidents that we had in Conwy as well, when we had, because a pipeline gave way, up to around 40,000 people affected—it grew from 8,000 to 40,000 people within hours, not days—. So, our hearts go out to all those affected.

You take me into the area—I won't comment on the individual circumstances, and I'm pleased that you as a representative have engaged with the local authority—but that difficult area between individual liability and where, actually, the Government and the state or agencies can actually step in. I was very pleased recently, in light of the recent events, that my colleague and I were able to discuss the additional support that could be made available to local authorities to help out. But I think this has to be an ongoing dialogue as well, based on local issues and what happens, but also on the support that Welsh Government can provide, and we were pleased to step up and put additional funding into that space in light of recent events.

I think the challenge is that we're going to need to keep that momentum going, with the quantum of funding we have in preparedness and response, but also to look at each individual instance that comes about and see what we can do, but there is then this tricky area of the individual liability of landowners, home owners and so on as well. You'll understand if I don't comment on the individual case, but I'm glad you've been involved with the residents there with the local authority.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, my constituents living in Caer Castell House in Brackla have suffered flooding on a number of occasions. Serious flooding occurred in 2012 and again in September last year. The adverse weather, even on 6 September 2024, was not the only culprit that caused sewer flooding that left all 10 ground-floor flats uninhabitable and caused severe damage to vehicles belonging to residents of the 30 flats in the building. Poor maintenance as well as ongoing neglect by the builders, failure by the local council, Network Rail and property developers all played a huge role. Their failure to uphold basic infrastructure standards has left residents vulnerable to repeated flooding. Residents have been unsupported by Welsh Government and let down by the local authorities, as well as Network Rail, who accepted responsibility for the flooding event in 2012. Residents affected by flooding in Pontypridd received £100,000 support, yet my constituents, many of whom are still unable to live in their homes even today, at present have received no support at all, not even advice.

Cabinet Secretary, what action can the Welsh Government take to protect residents living in places like Caer Castell House, who suffer from repeated floodings despite living in a low flood risk area?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Altaf, for that question. The role of Welsh Government in this space is to ensure that we have the strategic approach to the way that we deal with flooding right across Wales, but also that we provide the quantum of investment needed—in the right form, as well—so that the decisions can be taken on the ground by the flood management authorities, which are the local authorities, working with Natural Resources Wales and, I have to say, with residents as well, to understand the nature of the mitigations that they would need. So, in some places—again, I won't comment on the individual ones—it could be pumps, in some places it could be hard defences and embankments; it could be a range of things. But we have now had record funding for flood risk management, including this year. It's been maintained at £75 million. This is the second or third year that we've maintained it at record levels. I'll be announcing more on the future investment flood programme later in the spring, for 2025-26, as well. But we know we've got to keep that investment going, and we'd thoroughly appreciate support from Senedd Members to do that as well.

But it's also worth touching on the Welsh Government's flagship coastal risk management programme, which, again, has seen an additional £291 million of concentrated investment funding over five years. It will have funded, that scheme alone, 15 schemes across Wales, benefiting 14,000 properties. So, we can put in place the funding, we can put in place the framework, but I would commend to you, Altaf, and to other Members, to then engage with the local flood management agencies, which are the local authorities, and NRW, to say, 'How do we work with individual neighbourhoods, individual streets and, indeed, individual properties?', because some of the investment is not grand scale, but it is individual property flood issues, such as flood gates, and so on.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

This is such an important question. In the Valleys, our landscapes leave us more vulnerable to the effects of storms. Now, some of that's natural, because of our hills, but some of the danger is man made, most urgently because of coal tips that lie above us. Last November, residents in Cwmtillery were left traumatised by the coal tip that slipped down the mountain in heavy rain. It could have been so much worse. Inspections are still going on—that's so important for residents' peace of mind. But, communities living under coal tips shouldn't have to worry every time there's a storm. Westminster should be paying to clear those tips once and for all. We'll need far more than the £25 million promised to us by Rachel Reeves. And whilst the legislation going through the Senedd is welcome, it doesn't address that point. What update can you give the Senedd, please, and the Valleys, about how this Government will ensure that the debt they owe us will be paid?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, I think we do absolutely have a debt to those communities, including the community I live in in Maesteg, and elsewhere, but throughout all the south Wales Valleys, and it includes parts of north Wales as well, where they still live with the issue of coal tips still being there 20, 30, 40 years after—this industrial legacy issue we need to deal with. I am really pleased that the UK Government has stepped up to the mark with the money that we asked for, for this year. I know that there have been calls for £500 million, £600 million, £700 million right now, but I've made clear to the Senedd before, Llywydd, when I've spoken on this, that it isn't a question of fixing every single tip right now; it's prioritising the tips that need work, and then getting on with it. I'm very pleased to say, by the way, that we've had a huge number of very good quality applications from several local authorities to draw down the next tranche of funding, which I'm keen to sign off. We're just going back and forth to the authorities to make sure that it's deliverable within the timescale they've said as well. And we are talking about multimillion-pound sums of money and many local communities.

We have that debt to pay. I think the UK Government is stepping up and saying, 'Here's the first instalment, and we regard it as a first instalment'. My colleague the finance Secretary is in discussion with the Treasury about what the next instalment will be, and the one after that and the one after that, because we see this as being a necessary partnership now, going forward. But be under no misapprehension, I've made clear to those communities that I've visited that we will make sure that we do the right thing by these communities and stand by them, because it's the least they deserve. And we will have to accelerate this funding, going forward. But bringing forward the legislation as well, and setting up this new public authority specifically tasked with making these communities safe and looking after the welfare of these communities, will also be a huge step forward. We'll have spent, by the end of this Senedd term, £102 million, and, for the first time, we've got the UK Government stepping in and saying, 'We've got a part to play.'

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to start by seeking some reassurance on our country's resilience and preparedness should we be hit by—heaven help us—foot and mouth again, or, indeed, anything else. We've already seen avian flu on our borders and we know that, when the weather warms up, we're likely to see bluetongue surge. And I just want some assurance for the Senedd that the Government have robust plans in place, and that all local authorities have appropriate plans, strategies, capacity and resource in place also, should that worst happen. Contingency planning for disasters and events is absolutely fundamental for our security, and I think we learnt that from COVID. So, I seek those reassurances for the Senedd.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, Peter, I can give you those reassurances. The work that we do is not only within Wales, but actually engaging across the UK with counterparts, and, indeed, on veterinary and biosecurity matters, we’re also with our European counterparts as well, because what we know, with some of these diseases—and there is a triple threat that we’re currently facing, including foot and mouth, bluetongue and avian flu as well, but who knows what comes in future—is that the engagement is not simply within our borders; it extends as far as we know where that disease is coming from. So, in terms of things such as foot and mouth at the moment, where we had the recent outbreak within Germany, we were, within hours, engaged through our chief veterinarians and through the Animal and Plant Health Agency and others, and also Ministers and officials working together, to ensure that that outbreak was locked down, isolated, dealt with. And I’m pleased to say that was done very effectively.

But we do have that resilience planning in place not just for foot and mouth, but for other diseases—how we respond, how we marshal our resources, and not just within Wales. But if there is a major incident, just to be clear, a major incident of the type that we have seen before, regrettably, back in 2001, then the call will be above and beyond what I have normally in my budget. The call will be, 'This is an eventuality now that we need to resource, either through the Welsh Exchequer or on a UK basis.' But, yes, the planning in place. The structures are in place. The engagement is on a weekly basis. And the first thing we have to try and do is keep disease out. There is a role for us in that. There is also a role for those good farmers out there in helping us do that as well. But we are ready, as ready as we possibly can be, should we have any significant outbreak and eventuality we have to deal with.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that reassurance. I think it’s important that the Parliament could hear that, because we fear these things could happen, and they can take us by surprise and we need to be ready to act. And it’s pleasing to know that those things are in place.

Cabinet Secretary, moving back to something the Chancellor announced, we know she brought forward a tax hike on family farms, but she also announced that future agricultural funding will no longer be ring-fenced. This means that Welsh farmers are set to lose out on £150 million a year, or a 40 per cent cut in that budget. Cabinet Secretary, in a scrutiny session with the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, you seemed to suggest that this decision was the right one, saying that, and I quote:

'the money is passported to us...and I need to be scrutinised for those decisions. It's passported to us and we make the decisions.'

Now, this seems to differ a little from the First Minister’s position in her evidence to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee recently, where she was rightly concerned by this move. This division is incredibly concerning for the farming community, who need strong and decisive action from the Government. Cabinet Secretary, what exactly is the Welsh Government’s position on this matter? Do you support the Barnettisation of the rural affairs funding, and, if not, what discussions have you had with your Labour colleagues in Westminster on the matter?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Peter. I’m happy to clarify that, and happy to confirm that I’ve had direct conversations on this with my UK counterparts as well, so that they understand our clear position as well.

Two separate issues: on the ring-fencing, on a principle of devolution, we do not accept that the UK Government should pass us money and say, ‘That’s how you spend it’. On a principle of devolution, what we should have is, curiously, not unlike the situation we had before we withdrew from the EU. The money we have available, we decide how to use in Wales. It’s our decision. That’s what you and I, Peter, are elected for.

A separate issue, however, is on the Barnettisation. We do, the First Minister and I, share a worry on any suggestion that we should simply proceed now on a Barnett consequential approach to agriculture. That would do a disservice to a proportion of the Welsh economy, and not just rural Wales, but the thing we were talking about with Sam earlier, to our great success in this area with the food and drink industry. It would do a disservice if it were simply a Barnett consequential. So, we've made our views clear to the UK Government. We welcome the fact that they are not ring-fencing it and that we can get on with—as we should in this Parliament; we are elected Members—making our decisions on the money that is given to Wales through the block grant, but we’ve expressed our concerns if they were to proceed purely on Barnettisation of future settlements.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that clarity. It still worries me that there is the potential for Barnettisation to reduce our funding to rural communities, and I implore you to continue to lobby hard against that.

Cabinet Secretary, just over a year ago, we saw the largest protest the Senedd has ever seen, with farmers rightly infuriated over the sustainable farming scheme at that time. The Welsh Government listened, which was a good thing, and you went back to the table. Yesterday, and over recent weeks, we’ve seen thousands protest against your colleagues in Westminster over the incredibly damaging impact of the Chancellor’s tax on family farms. They need to listen as you did. The Welsh industry needs you now to speak out publicly. I know the stock answer is that agricultural property relief is a reserved issue. Yes, we all know that, but the Welsh Government has a view and can speak out publicly. Cabinet Secretary, can you today do that, either now in your response or in your response to the APR debate this afternoon, and reassure the farming community that you stand by them?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I absolutely stand by the farming community and we’ve met regularly and repeatedly with the farming unions to discuss this matter over the recent months, and, in fact, as recently as the last few days as well, and we’ll keep that dialogue going. We were pleased, on the basis of our representations, the unions’ representations and, I have to say, the help of the Wales Office as well, to broker dialogue with the UK Treasury on behalf of the farming unions, and NFU Cymru and FUW were both a part of those. But they came away disappointed from those discussions. So, we have, once again, taken up with the UK Government that we want to make sure that the alternative analyses that have been put forward, particularly in light of the fact that we are trying to take forward the sustainable farming scheme, based on the sustainable land management principles, which include having that vitality of the business model within farming, particularly small and medium-scale farming, recognising the social value of farming—this is a very different model from what’s been tried in other parts of the UK, and I note recently that this was applauded at the NFU conference as well—and that we could actually have a scheme here that is far better than anything else that’s in the UK—. Now, if we’re going to deliver that, we need to make sure that there are no negative consequences.

So, that’s the matter that we have taken up subsequent to those meetings that NFU Cymru and the FUW had with the Treasury. We’ve been back in touch with UK Ministers to say that we wanted to make sure that their views are properly heard, properly considered, and also that they take into account the fact that we are developing an initiative here in Wales that should last not just for now, but for future generations, and that we want that to be brought forward with good consensus around it, with stakeholders really behind it and also confident that they can invest in their businesses. Now, I think that’s as clear as I can possibly be that we want this to be done properly in the months ahead.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I’d like to press you further about the shift towards applying the Barnett formula on agricultural funding in Wales, because, as you know, it has been met with widespread concern. The First Minister herself, as we were just reminded, described it as something that poses a significant threat to future funding levels. Do you not accept that it’s a pity, if we really had a partnership in power between Labour here and Labour in Westminster, that you weren't consulted about this before the decision was made? And do you not regret, therefore, that you’re now left trying to unpick that decision by asking your own party to make a u-turn on a policy that they introduced, which is clearly detrimental to Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I believe we've seen an absolute sea change now in grown-up Government relations, proper inter-governmental relations, the ability now of Ministers to speak to each other. But that does not mean we will not have disagreements, that does not mean that they do not have the right in their reserved matters to make decisions, and then we have to go back at them and say, 'Right, there are some consequences with these we need to talk about.' But at least now I'm able to do that, Llyr. I can actually meet, speak regularly. The inter-ministerial groups in this area are meeting regularly, but I can also have bilaterals as well. So, this is firmly on the agenda, but I respect their reserved powers and decisions they can make in that, but I expect them to engage with us, then, when we raise matters that are really pertinent to the future of farming within Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Although, I would expect that a partnership is about getting it right in the first place and not a partnership when it needs to be fixed—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Most of the time.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

—but I hear what you're saying. So, can I ask you about the sustainable farming scheme, then? Because it's all gone a bit quiet, but that's okay because I know there's a lot of work happening in the background, but a lot of people, of course, are waiting now to see what emerges, and the later that detail emerges, the more likely it is that people might not commit in year 1. They may well hold back, see how it goes and decide maybe after year 1, maybe after year 2, whether they want to join the sustainable farming scheme or not. So, my question simply is: how will you manage the funding around that in years 1 and 2 particularly, and if there is low take-up, where does that money go?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, Llyr, I don't anticipate there will be low take-up, because if we design this scheme well, and it's going well behind the scenes, even though we're into a period of public quietude at the moment, behind the scenes, those legs are paddling rapidly, they're swimming away—. The officials group is up and running again on the next iteration, so, you know, we're into the space now of looking at what the optional and collaborative elements will be. We've got that piece of work to take forward on the modelling of the individual elements as well, and then we've got the final economic modelling to do as well. But we will bring this forward by the summer because we've said we will do that, and it's working well towards that. And we will, then, have that certainty that farmers can plan ahead. But it's more than that. We're not starting from scratch. We already, last year, announced investment in, for example, the integrated natural resource scheme, the broad spatial collaborative scheme, so people are getting on with that. We already signalled what we're doing with the sites of special scientific interest.

We will bring forward this spring other areas that farmers will be able to opt into right now. So, it's not a sudden start, screaming, wheels spinning from January 1. We will have farmers who are actually in, if you like, the forerunner elements of the scheme and can simply flip across into it. So, I anticipate the take-up will be good and we can give that certainty as we come to the summer to farmers of exactly what the shape looks like, but we're also piloting these schemes through the year so that more farmers are actually involved in the sort of approaches that will take place, then, from January.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Fine. But you didn't say if it isn't as good as that, where the money would go; so, maybe you can come back to me on that later.

Just finally from me, over the last three months, of course, we know that 1.8 million farmed birds have been culled across the UK due to avian influenza. Now it's moving closer to Wales, of course. We know there are some cases along the border; some, in fact, impacting land in Wales. And there's deep concern, of course, amongst poultry farmers and others. Now, farmers in England have called on the UK Government to allow vaccination as a tool against bird flu. It's not currently permitted in the UK. Government policy obviously relies on culling and strict biosecurity at the minute, but there is growing pressure for a shift in approach. The National Farmers Union has urged the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to prioritise a practical vaccination plan, while organisations such as the British Free Range Egg Producers Association strongly support vaccination.

Now, I appreciate that there are concerns about potential trade restrictions and, you know, the virus evolving in response to vaccines et cetera, but can I ask what is the Welsh Government's position on poultry vaccination? Do you believe that vaccinations should be part of the long-term strategy to protect the poultry sector in Wales, and what discussions have taken place with the UK Government on this matter?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed. So, it's not only discussions with the UK Government, but it's between the chief veterinary officers. I'm being updated probably on a bi-weekly basis—sorry, I always get confused with that term—at least twice a week on this with my chief veterinary officer. We don't discount, actually, the use of vaccines going forward as a longer term strategy, but right from now, our approach is, as you will have seen, and I say this as I've got to declare an interest as a small-scale poultry keeper myself, who is, by the way, registered—. I'll just send that message out—if there are any Members here keeping a few chickens or whatever for the eggs, register if you haven't. You should have by now. I can give you advice how to do it, personally—it's very easy. But the approach we're taking is actually working with both the large-scale, commercial sector and others to make sure that we lock this disease out. But, possibly in the future, yes, that could well be part of it. But, yes, the engagement is going on right across the UK so we can try and keep this disease back and keep it out of Wales.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

3. What is the Welsh Government doing to combat idling in areas already suffering poor air quality? OQ62405

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Jenny. Thank you for that question. We are currently evaluating the options for tackling the idling of stationary vehicles, which is recognised can contribute to local air pollution levels. So, these could include, for example, working with local authorities on the enforcement of penalties and an awareness campaign, along with other measures to encourage changes in drivers' behaviours.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Well, an awareness campaign is certainly needed, because, in Cardiff Central, my constituency, we've already got several hotspots of illegal air quality, according to the World Health Organization classification, but I'm constantly having to challenge drivers who leave their engines running outside schools, in the taxi ranks, or in other built-up areas, where people will just give the excuse that they're trying to charge their phones, which is extraordinary. Some do the right thing and turn off their engines, and others are abusive, even when I remind them that they're breaking the law. So, the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act 2024 has been law for a year now. I'm sorry that we're still evaluating and considering when it's so urgent to ensure that these regulations can be properly enforced by being able to identify people other than the police, who have so much else to do, to actually get that change of behaviour. So, people like parking attendants, responsible people, could impose fines on people who are refusing to turn off their engines, even when they've been asked to do so, and simply in order to raise awareness of the harm they are doing to the whole community.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Jenny, I think you're right, the raising awareness of this to try and affect behavioural change is a critical element. There are other things we can use, other measures, including financial penalties and so on, and it's interesting to look at a range of financial penalties as well, rather than just one blunt one, and we're keen to explore that. But actually, behavioural change is the most tricky thing, and we've seen where this can succeed, not least where you have campaigns, for example, with local schools, for the children to try and influence the behaviour of parents and so on, with idling and parking and driving to school as well. But I think there is a significant piece of work we need to do within that.

It may be helpful as well just to flag with you some of the thoughts that we have as well, because we do believe that something within a financial penalty range could provide quite a helpful deterrent as well, where needed, alongside the behavioural change, something stronger than the current £20 penalty, but something with a good range as well, depending on the application. So, what we could do, for example, is look at, and we're exploring this at the moment, whether we could provide local authorities with a degree of flexibility to tailor the amount of penalty to the circumstances of the offence in the area and the severity of the offence. So, for example, you could put a fixed penalty at a higher range if the offence occurred next to a really sensitive receptor area, such as a school or a hospital or a clinic or a care home—things like that. A lower amount you could apply in a less sensitive area, to give a nudge, but without hammering too much. So, we're exploring these options now, internally and with local authorities, and we'd like to actually bring something forward now before the end of this Senedd term so we can actually put this into place on the ground and see how this works. But you are right, it's the behavioural piece as well as the sticks.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, as we've heard, idling of vehicles is well known to increase concentrations of air pollutants, in particular fine particulate matter and elemental carbon. Studies have shown that buses and cars idling around schools have a huge impact, and that awareness campaigns encouraging divers to turn off their engines can reduce localised concentrations of fine particulate matter by up to 75 per cent, elemental carbon by 63 per cent and overall particle number concentration by a staggering 600 per cent. Moreover, it has been shown in England that buses fitted with additional particulate filters retrofitted to their roofs can clean air as they travel, further helping to mitigate air quality issues in built-up areas.

You have mentioned this in your previous response, but what action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage schools to run anti-idling campaigns, not only to help improve air quality, but also to engage pupils in understanding the causes of pollution? And what consideration has the Welsh Government given to encouraging bus companies to install additional filters to clean air as they travel? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Joel, thank you for that supplementary. I think we need to look at every possible lever that we have to reduce idling and the dangers of air pollution with it, and that means also encouraging and empowering local authorities to take action. So, it's not for us to sit here and say what should happen in Flintshire or in Cardiff or whatever, but what we do need to give them is the tools that they can use, and that could include monetary penalties, but we would expect local authorities as well, in line with their air quality duties, which are now stringent and very clear, to bring forward their own proposals to drive forward better air quality in their areas. And they know—. They have the mapping of where they have the biggest impacts, and they need to bring forward their proposals, including on behavioural campaigns within those areas, and those could be working with local schools and colleges and residents and others to do it.

I think we also need—related to this, by the way—to deal with the wider issues of actually cleaning up emissions with vehicles. You are right. And I'll have that conversation, as I regularly have, with my Cabinet Secretary colleague for transport and north Wales. But also on reducing the amount of unnecessary journeys using fossil fuel vehicles, because that also has an impact, not just on air quality but on congestion and quality of life impacts, including on some of the poorer communities as well, who live alongside those main roads. So, all of these tools need to be used, both for air quality and also those wider things like actually reducing congestion on our roads.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the designation of a national park in north-east Wales? OQ62399

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Carolyn. The designation of a national park in north-east Wales is a programme for government commitment. NRW recently held a public consultation on the proposals for the boundary as part of the necessary assessment and engagement work to establish a national park. The results will inform the final proposals.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for your answer. Could you give me some examples of what the three other national parks are doing well with farmers and how tourism is managed so it's sustainable in those national parks? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes. It's a cracking question. We've got some examples already. So, for example—and it links, curiously, to the question Llyr put earlier on, on what are we doing in advance of the SFS—we launched a scheme over the last year called Ffermio Bro. The Ffermio Bro approach is actually bringing forward landscape-scale collaborations on conservation within national parks. So, we put the funding behind it. We've launched it. It's a direction of travel of where we might go with the sustainable farming scheme going forward. But that actually builds on other agri-environment projects within national parks, working with farmers in collaboration. So, for example, under the sustainable management scheme projects that have been funded, we've had things such as the traditional field boundaries project, which have extended, I think, something like 20 km additional of hedgerows and stone walls, which are themselves wildlife corridors as well. So, on that sort of collaboration there's already a strong record of national parks working with farmers.

You touched on sustainable tourism as well. I am one of those people who when they travel to Eryri take the public transport option, the park-and-ride option. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Why park along the highway and clutter up the highway with cars or whatever, and add to congestion and add to air quality issues, when you can actually take advantage of the partnership that's been done there with local transport providers to get people out of their cars and travel up by that? So, things like that, the use of public transport, but also as part of the Sustainable Landscapes, Sustainable Places capital grant schemes, all of our three national parks have already made great strides in improving their provision for electric vehicle charging as well. So, there are lots of good examples there already of national parks working with farmers, but also in driving forward sustainable tourism as well.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for the question from Carolyn Thomas. I was very interested in that, because my constituents have concerns, and so do I, following the proposals to extend the national park into parts of north Powys, which of course is not part of the original proposition from the Welsh Government included in their programme for government. But, on those two points that Carolyn raised, when NRW came to my constituency on 1 December and addressed a large number of people, they weren't convinced. Farmers were concerned about being unable to diversify in the same way if they were designated as in a national park. There was also concern around day visitors, concerns around potential infrastructure and specific examples around that. So, I suppose my question would be: why do you think NRW were not able to convince people in north Powys of the benefits of a national park? And indeed, I'm not convinced either; I see more disbenefits than benefits. But, in terms of the timetable, could I just ask quickly—? If the Government is going to proceed with the national park, then you will designate a national park, as I understand it, before the next Senedd elections, effectively before April next year. But could you also confirm if the national park would come into being at that point, and, if not, what would be not just the decision, but when would the national park come into being and what would the time frame for that be?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Okay. Thank you, Russell, and thanks for engaging in the consultation, going forward. I just want to, without commenting on the specifics—because there is still a sort of quasi-judicial process going on that I and other Cabinet Secretaries would be involved with, ultimately—just commend NRW on the consultation and the engagement they've done, which has been really extensive. So, they've heard views for, they've heard views against. It's primarily on the boundary issue, but they've also heard lots of other analysis, evidence, that has come forward from that. So, the process now is that NRW itself will conduct an analysis of what they've heard, the implications—both positive and negative views that they've heard—of national park status for the area and more widely, and that will include things such as impacts on tourism, on housing, on employment, the Welsh language. And that will then inform a final decision, with advice being lifted up to not just myself but other Cabinet Secretaries, who will then need to make a decision. We'll also need to have a detailed integrated impact assessment as well, so that we're basing our decisions on the most complete set of evidence available.

Now, it's not appropriate for me as Cabinet Secretary, or my officials for that matter, to comment directly on specific issues being taken forward as part of this statutory process, but of course it is a programme for government commitment. We have to wait, now, for that advice to be lifted up, but, yes, Welsh Government stands by that programme for government commitment and we're now waiting for that advice to be brought forward. There's a limit to what I can add to that at the moment, Russell.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

5. How is the Welsh Government working with the UK Government to support farming communities in Wales? OQ62401

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Tom. I'm in regular contact with my UK counterparts on a number of issues that affect farmers in Wales to ensure that their voices and concerns continue to be heard. My officials also engage regularly with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs via the UK agricultural market monitoring group and the agricultural policy collaboration group.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for your answer. During the general election, we heard repeatedly, didn't we, from the Labour Party that there would be no tax rises on working people, only for farmers, then, to find a new tax placed upon them, their farms and their families in the form of Labour's inheritance tax placed on farms, forcing many to consider whether they could even afford to remain open in the long run. I certainly consider farmers to be working people, I know my party considers farmers to be working people, which is why the Conservatives in Westminster have said that they'd scrap this policy if they came into Government after the next election. What conversations are you having with the UK Government if you also believe that farmers are working people, or is it the case that the Welsh Government believes that farmers are not working people?

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

It's just millionaires.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

It's not. Mike, that says it all. That says it all. That's the attitude.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, I can—

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

That's the attitude.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, I can respond—. Sorry, Tom. I can respond quite helpfully on that. We engage regularly, as I mentioned in response to previous questions, with UK Ministers on this and other matters affecting the agricultural community.

But, just to say as well, in yesterday’s budget, which included an additional £50 million in revenue funding for the climate change and rural affairs budget, £73 million of capital funding as well, in terms of agricultural support, in total, that budget yesterday passed £366 million for agricultural support here in Wales, including £238 million for the basic payment scheme supporting agricultural transition to the sustainable farming scheme, and £11 million for Farming Connect, and indeed, uplifts as well in terms of things such as water quality improvements as well. So, I can absolutely guarantee that, here in Wales, Welsh Government stands steadfast with the farming community, and we were pleased to vote for that budget yesterday.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I am hoping that everybody in the Siambr can see the pressures on our farmers, and the real concerns, particularly on their mental health right now, that there are.

I sat in a room recently in Brecon and Radnorshire with five farmers. Every single one of them was affected by the new inheritance tax. They had also done a detailed analysis, with the backing of accountants, of 15 farms in Brecon and Radnorshire, and all but one of them was affected by the new rules. This policy most affects the widowed, the widower, people who are suffering from illnesses that might lead to their early death, those who are older. This is a very discriminatory policy, so Cabinet Secretary, I recognise that there are particular challenges for you, but we really do need a loud voice on behalf of our Welsh farmers in London to say that this needs to be paused, and there needs to be a process of consultation and listening to all of those farmers affected. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Jane, and can I just also in passing thank you for the support and the additional work you did to lever in additional funding for rural issues and in terms of things like water quality as well, in terms of budget discussions there, which will be of help?

In respect of the pressures on farming, I think you’re absolutely right, and I regularly see this when I speak to farmers and their families as well, including when I visited farmers and support organisations in your own constituency and met with them, and the incredible work that they do, and it’s why Welsh Government has also continued to invest in support for these organisations. It’s why, curiously, they’re also represented on the SFS ministerial round-table as well, so that we hear that voice about the well-being approach, which is vitally important here. It’s also why we’ve invested £45,000 to develop FarmWell Wales, which is an information hub on personal and business resilience for farmers and for their families. We’ve had over 9,000 users since it was launched a few years back, so that is providing invaluable support, alongside the third sector organisations out there.

Further to the answers that I’ve given previously, and just to reiterate, not only have I engaged directly with DEFRA colleagues in Westminster on this all the way through this process, both in terms of discussions with the interministerial groups, the IMGs, but also in other bilateral conversations, I’ve written on two occasions as well now, including subsequent to the most recent meetings where the farming unions came away disappointed, feeling that they’d presented their information but it hadn’t been heard fully, so I followed that up. Because what I do want to have is that, whilst the Treasury start, quite understandably, from the figures that they have, I want them to engage with alternative evidence being put forward, even if they don’t agree with all of it, because there’s an importance here, in terms of Welsh farming, to make sure, particularly, those small and medium scale farms that are so important to the fabric of our communities are protected going forward, are able to actually move to the future of the sustainable farming scheme—and I’ve put this in writing as well—without impediment.

So, look, one thing we can’t walk away from is the hole that confronted the Chancellor when she walked in, and that’s the tragedy of this, is going into Government and finding that there are things costed there that were not actually paid for, that the funds were not committed to, and that was in the region of £20 billion. Now, on that basis, difficult decisions have to be put forward by a responsible Chancellor to fill that hole and go forward.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

6. How is the Welsh Government monitoring air quality in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ62385

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Paul. Welsh Government works closely with local authorities to assess air quality through a combination of fixed monitoring stations and diffusion tubes that measure various pollutants against target levels. Pembrokeshire County Council publishes its annual air quality progress report outlining the actions it is taking to improve air quality.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Deputy First Minister, as you know, the monitoring of air quality has become a particular issue for residents living around the Withyhedge landfill site in my constituency. In fact, locally, some residents have previously referred to the odours from the site as like a stink bomb on steroids. Now, a recent report from Pembrokeshire County Council recommends that the council agree to the continuation of air quality monitoring at Spittal school for a further period of up to 12 months, which shows that there are fears of potential issues arising further in the future. The community has rightly called for a public inquiry and for the site to be closed down, calls that, as you know, I very much support. So, Deputy First Minister, how is the Welsh Government ensuring that air monitoring continues to take place whilst this site is operating, and will the Welsh Government, at the very least, support the local community's calls for a public inquiry?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, Paul, as you know, NRW, Natural Resources Wales, is continuing to work on the ground closely with the local authority, with Public Health Wales and Hywel Dda health board in a joint approach to addressing issues of public concern at Withyhedge landfill site, and I would strongly direct you and others to those organisations on the ground who are working to alleviate the concerns and to work with the operator there to make sure that these concerns are addressed. Now, I understand that the site operator has resumed waste acceptance and disposal at the site, so NRW continues to have a significant site presence. It is undertaking off-site odour monitoring to ensure compliance with the updated procedures and the broader conditions of the landfill permit. NRW officers have been monitoring the landfill gas emissions from incoming wastes, and they've reported no detection of elevated levels.

NRW, as part of its investigations management, also, as you know, releases regular updates, and the next one will be available later this week, I am told, which will also be received by yourself and other MSs in the area. NRW stresses that it's available to meet with you and others if that is desired.

Now, I'm aware, also, of some recent media reports regarding permit non-compliances relating to the paperwork concerning incoming waste. I have sought and had the assurances from NRW that the identified non-compliance was rectified during the initial site inspection on 6 January, and subsequent assessment has not identified a repeat occurrence. So, the NRW officers have been monitoring the landfill gas emissions from the incoming waste and the waste deposit. They haven't reported any off-site odours linked to the landfill that have yet been substantiated, but they will continue to monitor this, and, as I say, the offer is there from them to actually engage with the Member.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

7. What is the Welsh Government doing to reduce agricultural pollution? OQ62377

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Lesley. The Welsh Government is taking numerous steps to reduce agricultural pollution. These include committing £52 million to support on-farm infrastructure investments since 2021, continuing to provide financial support to NRW for the enforcement of the control of agricultural pollution regulations and working with and funding a range of strategic partnerships.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The figures I received in a written answer from you for the number of substantiated agricultural pollution incidents over the past three years are shocking. There has been no reduction, despite assurances from the agricultural sector and the farming unions over many years that voluntary action would reduce pollution. The public want to see decisive action to improve our water bodies, and the Welsh Government is committed to the COP15 targets within the global biodiversity framework to reduce pollution risks and impacts by 2030. How will the Welsh Government achieve this target when we continue to see such unacceptable levels of agricultural pollution?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

We are indeed committed to those COP targets, and I think that the work that we're doing and the investment we're putting in is the right way to proceed, and also to work not only with the enforcement and the penalties, but to work in collaboration where we can with the willing as well. So, we continue to fund NRW's enforcement of the regulations, and it was over £1.5 million of funds that went into that last year. Enforcing those regulations is critical to enforcing good farming practices, recognising the good farming out there and penalising those who are not playing by the rules. And it's good to say that, in my discussions with farming unions, they appreciate that as well, and that what we want to do is make sure that we drive up good standards and recognise those who are doing the right thing, but go after the ones who are not actually achieving good practice.

On the back of the regulations, as I mentioned, the other way that we can do this, working with the farming communities, is put our money to the means of dealing with slurry and so on—slurry management, sheds, et cetera. So, we've got £52 million now that we've put, in recent times, into that. There are challenges with getting those built on the ground, sometimes with planning and so on and so forth, but we're committed to that as well, because that will help the farmers who want to do the right thing to do the right management processes to avoid the issue of run-off and so on.

But most importantly, Llywydd and Lesley—and I recognise your commitment to this as the former Minister, standing here in my place as well—we've just got to the point where—. I always get this wrong; I keep calling her 'professor', but it's Dr Susannah Bolton, who is taking forward the four-yearly review of agricultural pollution regulations. It's an independently chaired piece. I think her engagement with stakeholders has been extensive, deep and thorough, and I'm looking forward to what she brings forward as the way forward now, and focusing on the outcomes, the outcomes of clearing up the issues of water quality from agricultural pollution. And of course, as you will know, we also need to deal with other sources of pollution then, from housing, from development, from water companies' antiquated systems and so on. But her work is very much focused on agricultural pollution.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 8, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

8. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support farmers in South Wales East? OQ62394

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Natasha. The Welsh Government provides direct and indirect support for farmers in the south-east and indeed all of Wales. Our grants for on-farm improvements, equipment and technology, learning and development through Farming Connect, and advice via the farm liaison service all demonstrate our commitment to supporting a sustainable future for Welsh agriculture.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate that a lot of Members from different benches have asked you questions today in relation to farming, but many farmers across Wales, including my region of South Wales East, are angry, they're upset and they're worried about Labour's planned family farm tax. This tax threatens the livelihood of our farming communities.

I'm sure that everyone can appreciate that family farms are, indeed, the backbone of our rural economy, providing food security and supporting local industries. Yet, Labour's brutal family farm tax could undo all of that and destroy this important part of our society. How your Labour colleagues in London could even justify bringing forward such a drastic measure, which will increase the already significant burden on family farmers, is, quite frankly, beyond me. Rather than helping our farmers thrive, this tax will hamper their survival and risk forcing many into financial hardship or leaving them with no choice but to sell up and leave the profession completely. We must remember, Cabinet Secretary: no farmers, no food. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you support the UK Labour Government's family farm tax, and if not, what will you be doing to mitigate the impact it will have on farmers in my region of South Wales East and across the country? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

There are things we can do here in Wales, to pick up your last point. But let me just be clear as well—. I think we're having a pre-run of a debate we might be having later on as well here, in some of the questions, which is fine. Yes, inheritance tax is a reserved tax, as everybody's aware; it's overseen by the UK Government. But what I have done is sought and gained those assurances from UK Government that Welsh farming unions will be heard on this issue, and I will continue to advocate for the views of Welsh farmers to be given full and proper consideration. It is important. We have to ensure that changes to inheritance tax and agricultural relief do not impact the future of sustainable farming here in Wales.

So, as part of supporting farmers to understand the impact and the implications of the IHT changes, Farming Connect, supported here from Welsh Government, have held a series of workshops across Wales. Over 1,200 farmers have attended to date. We have support available for farm businesses during the transition as well to the sustainable farming scheme in 2026. The Welsh Government's budget provides over £350 million to agricultural support—that's the budget we voted on yesterday and was supported here with the help of the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats as well. We've also got—. You asked in your question, 'How else can we support?' Well, there's a range of support schemes that we provide in south-east Wales; for example, it's the basic payment scheme payments, which we've guaranteed over the last few years and continue to take forward at the moment. Over 99 per cent of claimants have received their full BPS payment, and this is to the value of over £14.3 million. The Habitat Wales scheme 2024 payments to the south-east of Wales are worth £314,000; the organic support 2024 payments in South Wales East are worth £114,000 to farmers; under the first three rounds of the small grants efficiency scheme payments, they're worth £316,000 to farmers in your region as well, and that's not to mention the nutrient management investment scheme, where awards of over £300,000 were awarded to eight farm businesses in South Wales East. So, there's a range of ways that we can help farming here in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the topical question, to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and to be asked by Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

1. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on the closure of Oakwood Theme Park in Pembrokeshire? TQ1313

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government is aware of the situation and is awaiting further details of the impact on job losses and on the future of this site. We sympathise with those affected by this decision and stand ready to provide support to the workforce and to the supply chain.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you very much for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. It's really sad news, because Oakwood holds a really special place in the hearts of many in Pembrokeshire and across Wales as well. I've got really fond memories of my time visiting as a child, and even more recently with Andrew R.T. Davies. He shared the photo of us both on Megafobia, enjoying ourselves, and he enjoyed it a little bit more than I did—I'm not one for rollercoasters. But it has been a really important part of our tourism offer in west Wales, and people shared their memories on social media following the announcement yesterday. Lee Day, whom I used to work with, shared the story of the time when he had to hide EastEnders actor Dean Gaffney in a restaurant in Oakwood because he was being followed around by teenagers throughout. It has been really nice, but it comes at the cost and the price of this park closing, which is deeply sad.

Aspro, the parent company, have cited 'unrelenting economic challenges' as the reason for the closure, and they've invested over £25 million there—£1 million in the Megafobia ride that I mentioned earlier. They say that national insurance contributions, the inflationary costs of food and drink, and the cost of ride parts and electricity have all been a factor. We can't ignore the impact of what's happened in the budget on the decision by Aspro to close Oakwood. So, I'm just wondering what discussions you're looking to take forward, following this closure, with your counterparts—with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and those counterparts of yours up in the UK Government—around the impact of NICs. We can't ignore the shadow that the tourism tax casts across these sorts of businesses as well. So, is this an opportunity for the Welsh Government to review and reset the tourism tax discussion, given the closure of Oakwood?

On a second point around staff, I've written to the management team locally and the head office in Madrid, asking that staff are supported. I'm aware of a business that I've spoken to this morning that is looking to take on staff who are losing their jobs, but what I'd quite like to hear from the Welsh Government is what they're doing to support staff in the area who are impacted by this closure, because we know that, without staff, these sorts of attractions don't have their heart and soul—they're the people who really care about this, and the staff we met on our visit to Oakwood most recently really loved being part of the Oakwood story.

On the future of the site as well, this is a really prime site and it has been developed over the years. I'm aware that there could, potentially, already be buyers looking to come in and use the site for commercial purposes, either keeping it as a theme park or for other things as well. What I'm looking for is a commitment from the Welsh Government to work with me and other stakeholders—businesses have been in touch with me, and I'm sure businesses have been in touch with the Welsh Government as well—to try and find a buyer as soon as possible, because the last thing we want in Pembrokeshire is a site of that size being left derelict for a number of years. We saw that with the old CC2000 site, which became an eyesore, and we don't want that to happen. So, anything that can be done to support and bring more people together to try and buy the site and continue to run it would be most welcome.

The final point, then: I really hope that this isn't the start of a decline in tourism attractions in Wales, and that this is an isolated incident and impact. So, what I'd quite like is for the Welsh Government to convene a tourism summit with other large attractions from across Wales to hear their views, to reset the relationship with them, and to hear, 'Right, what's really affecting you following this closure by Oakwood?' to make sure that the tourism sector in Wales is supported in the very best way that it can be, so that this remains an isolated event and not the start of something more sad.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question this afternoon. It is indeed a sad day. I know that many people across Wales will have very, very many happy memories over the last 40 years, and it is absolutely a much-loved attraction and has been for many decades.

I think that the business itself, as we've heard, has recognised that there are a range of factors behind the decision today. It mentioned also the costs in all areas of the operation. We've heard about ride parts, but then it also extended to the cost of electricity and inflation in terms of food and beverage. I don't think that there's anything in relation to the announcement today that suggests that this is a Wales-specific issue; I think that the issues that were described are certainly wider than things that the Welsh Government can have a direct impact on. I do think the reference across to the tourism levy might have been a little bit of a stretch this afternoon, given the fact that a tourism levy can't even come into place until next year, at the earliest, and the purpose of that levy is to invest in the conditions that make tourism a success locally. So, I know that we'll have to continue to disagree on that particular point.

I think that our main concern—and I think this goes for all of us—is really about the staff at the site. Of course, our Welsh Government team works closely with our key stakeholders, including the Department for Work and Pensions, local authorities and Working Wales to ensure that people who are at risk of losing their jobs, or at risk of redundancy, do receive the information, support and guidance that they need. We know that a lot of the team is made up of seasonal workers, so I would point to some of the innovations that we have, such as Big Ideas Wales, for example, which is a really great opportunity for those young people to consider, who might otherwise have been employed during the tourist season at Oakwood. So, that's just one idea that might be useful to some people.

But then in terms of the future of the site, I also share that concern that we wouldn't want to see that site derelict. Just to provide reassurance to colleagues that the Welsh Government is in contact with those people who might have a commercial interest in the site, and we will certainly do what we can to facilitate a quick sale, if we're able to contribute to those discussions.

And then, in terms of the wider tourism sector, I'm really pleased to say that we do have that kind of large summit that you referred to on the horizon. So, on 27 March, we have our national tourism conference. It's a Welsh Government conference that is provided through Visit Wales, and that will have some of those large tourist attraction owners at it, amongst others. Part of the key issues that we'll be trying to grapple with at that conference will be around sustainability and resilience for the sector.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I want to echo the feeling of disappointment that Sam Kurtz mentioned at the very sudden and unexpected news last night that Oakwood is to close. We all have very fond memories. As a family, we went nearly every year to Oakwood and I was forced, like Sam, to go on Megafobia and the rides that I wasn't comfortable to go on, but the children felt that dad had to go with them. So, I didn't have much choice in that. But they were great days. Sunday school trips also went to Oakwood regularly. And it's strange to think that Oakwood may not exist.

One thinks of the staff, of course, who will be greatly affected by this news. One also realises that Oakwood is not only a very, very important tourist attraction, but an attraction that gave such an economic boost to the area as well. There was so much more around Oakwood, with the supply businesses, the hospitality businesses and so forth that benefited so much from this park.

We know that the park has faced some health and safety problems in recent times that haven't helped, and perhaps hasn't adequately invested in continuing to be a park that attracted visitors as it once did. But maybe the question for the Government is this: when did you first hear about the park's problems? What discussions have you had with the park owners, and what support could you possibly give to the park in order to see whether it might be possible to save it, or, certainly, as Sam suggested, that we co-operate with possible new buyers, because the last thing we want to see is the site closing and no tourist attraction at all replacing it, given that it's made such a contribution over the years?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question. Unfortunately, it was unexpected news for the Welsh Government as well, so we found out about it at the same time as others. I really would encourage any business in distress, or any business that is facing very difficult economic times or challenges that might lead them to consider making choices like this, to reach out to the Welsh Government at the earliest opportunity so that we can explore options with those businesses, to find out if there are ways that we could work together to ensure a longer term and sustainable plan for that business. So, that would be my appeal to businesses this afternoon—to reach out and see if there is help for them in those situations.

I think that the parent company has been quite clear in its intentions for the site, but, of course, we have reached out to them, through officials, to explore whether we can have further conversations with them. Our conversations really are also in the space of conversations with the staff, to explore what more we can do to help there. So, I did mention some of the partnerships that we work with locally to support staff, but I would also highlight that, where people are impacted by redundancy and want to remain in the labour market, then they can receive that individualised support through the Welsh Government's employability and skills programme, ReAct+, and also Communities for Work Plus. So, those schemes will be there for those individuals who might be affected. But, as I say, the vast majority of the workforce is that seasonal workforce, who haven't, at this point in the year, been recruited.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Of course, we all know that Oakwood is an iconic park. I remember taking my children there—and it's been around a while—and also, more recently, even taking my grandchildren there. But the point here is more important than that. You mentioned just now that this was the first that you'd heard of it, and I would go along with your plea to businesses to give earlier warnings, because it also gives earlier warnings to those suppliers who are supplying that attraction, and also to the employees, so that they can seek alternative employment. I don't know whether any of that was the case, but I hope that it was, because sudden closures of businesses are pretty devastating on all of those people who are affected. I believe there's somewhere around 200 workers. I don't know how many of those are employed full time. But my question is what we can do to support those workers who are seeking alternative employment.

Of course, the site is a large site. I believe it was agricultural land before it was a theme park—I believe that that's the case. Being a county councillor for over 30 years, if I'd still been there, I remember it actually getting its planning permission. So, I suppose one thing that could happen is it could return to farmland. But there will be plenty of options and there will be lots of interest, I'm certain about that. But what must happen is the best use of that land in terms of the wider community. I do agree with you that it's a stretch too far and a ridiculous attempt, really, to put this with the visitor levy. To my knowledge, people don't usually sleep in Oakwood—not intentionally, anyway, I'm sure of that. So, I do think that is somewhat ridiculous. But, nonetheless, this is a serious blow to the community. It did support people in their employment more widely than the park itself, and those people, I feel, will need support. So, I’d be very interested to hear how that plays out.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’m very grateful, again, for the questions. As I understand it, the proportion of the workforce that is employed year-round is actually a relatively small number as compared to the overall number, but, for those individual workers, this news is going to be absolutely devastating. So, we stand ready to work, through our ReAct+ programme and others, with each and every one of those individuals to try and ensure that they are able to move on into work after the announcement today. And then, recognising that point about this being a really important site, the Welsh Government will do everything that we can to ensure that there is an outcome that provides jobs for the future at that really important site. But, today, I think all our thoughts are with those workers who are receiving some really difficult news, and our intentions are to support them as best we can.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

We’ll move now to item 4, which is the 90-second statements, and the first is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The people of Ynys Môn and audiences across Wales remember fondly this week Marged Esli, who died on St David’s day at the age of 75. For those who know the corridors of this Senedd, there is a picture of here near the Plaid Cymru offices, as it happens. It’s a picture of Marged at the Urdd Eisteddfod in Porthmadog in 1964. If my sums are right, that young girl from Gwalchmai would have still been a pupil at Llangefni comprehensive at that time, but that spark, which is clear in that photograph, was a hint at the natural talent for acting and performing that would see her starring on stage and screen for decades to come.

As a presenter on the Bilidowcar children's programme, she would have been one of the first faces that I would have seen on television as a child, I’m sure. Her character, Nansi Furlong, was a favourite on Pobol y Cwm. She took the lead in the film Madam Wen in the early 1980s. Her list of roles and performances over the years, in Welsh and in English, is lengthy, but she also was a screenwriter. She was a teacher, and showed a commitment to her craft and her area as an active volunteer at Theatr Fach, Llangefni.

In 2023, she published her autobiography under the title, Ro'n i’n arfer bod yn rhywun—‘I used to be someone’—but, in remembering her today, we can say that you will always be someone very special to us, Marged, and Ynys Môn in particular is very, very proud of your success.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

The next from Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. I want to take this time to celebrate the wonderful work of Dolen Cymru, who are celebrating their fortieth anniversary this year. This organisation does incredible work in connecting communities in Lesotho and Wales. They’ve worked really hard to facilitate sustainable projects, partnerships and relationships that have a positive impact on communities in both Lesotho and in Wales. The Rt Hon Mohlabe Tsekoa wonderfully summarised the ties between the two countries when he said that,

'The link is a source of hope to the people of Lesotho. It is one of the greatest developments that has come to us on a human level...It is an unprecedented example of how meaningful links can be…given our location and smallness, there is a need to hold another hand, however far away, to help make us feel we are truly part of the world, part of the international community'.

This is a wonderful example of the strong ties that Wales can develop with other countries around the world. These days, when international relations are so fragile, organisations like these are invaluable to us here in Wales. Thank you so much to Dolen Cymru. Diolch.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Elin Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I am sure that every Member here has a soundtrack for their youth. Geraint Jarman and the Cynganeddwyr provided mine. Geraint Jarman died on Monday, but his age of music and words will live on.

His music from the 1970s brought the reggae rhythm of Riverside to the Welsh rock scene. Jarman invoked the life of the capital in musical poetry through the medium of Welsh. His gigs were the stuff of legend, and, as I talk about him, I can feel myself being immersed again in the excitement of being in the audience at a Jarman gig.

In his music, the skip was on fire, the tracksuit was green and the taxi was travelling into the darkness. The political poets never washed their dirty clothes, the door of the council house girl was open until dawn, and a new Ethiopia was on the horizon.

Before becoming an artist in his own right, Jarman was a member, along with Heather Jones and Meic Stevens, of the influential band Bara Menyn. He worked on the innovative series Fideo 9, and he was also the original voice of SuperTed.

The last time I heard Geraint Jarman sing live was in the Neuadd at the Senedd here in 2019, and he told me, with great humility, that it was a privilege and a dream to be able to sing his iconic anthem, 'Gwesty Cymru', at the Welsh Parliament.

Geraint Jarman's songs will be central to the fabric of the Welsh rock scene for many years to come. His words have made deep inroads into the souls of so many of us. And think about the inspiration that this 15-year-old, curly-haired girl got from his immortal line,

'The curly-haired rockers are the future of Wales now'.

Nos da, Jarman; Jarman, nos da.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Thank you very much.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Needs of the deaf community

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

We'll move on now to item 5, namely the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), on the needs of the deaf community. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Today’s motion highlights the need for service providers to meet the needs of the deaf community, noting that people with hearing loss are severely disadvantaged compared to people who have unaffected hearing; that British Sign Language, BSL, is the preferred method of communication for many deaf people; and concern about the decision by Qualifications Wales not to progress with a GCSE in sign language.

The motion also calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that the disability rights taskforce specifically captures the issues and barriers that affect the lives of deaf people and to have a greater involvement with the deaf community to ascertain their needs. Cabinet Secretaries have routinely cited the work of the Welsh Government’s disability rights taskforce as their catch-all response to any disability-related matter. This includes questions about how they engage and work with the deaf community, using this to justify their previous statements that they did not recognise the need for a BSL Bill in Wales. For example, after I raised the decision taken by Qualifications Wales to suspend the development of a BSL GCSE in Wales in the Chamber last October, the social justice Secretary and Trefnydd said,

'I think it is important that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, clearly, is engaging, as I will do, from a disability rights taskforce perspective'.

The next day, I received from the recipient a freedom of information reply from the disability rights taskforce, following the recipient’s request to supply them with information of the disability rights taskforce and its sub-committees, which mentions British Sign Language, BSL. The reply stated that many of the taskforce meetings have referenced the broader need for more accessible information, which would capture British Sign Language without specifically mentioning it. Responding, the recipient stated, ‘I asked the question as I was fed-up of reading the same get-out clause referring any BSL matter to the disability rights taskforce or using it as an excuse for addressing BSL to be put on hold’. It is still happening, and yet there is evidence there has been next to no discussion on BSL within the taskforce. Please can this be challenged?

After I shared this with the co-submitter of this motion, Mike Hedges, and fellow member of the cross-party group on deaf issues, it was agreed that we would seek an opportunity to submit this for a Member debate. I was subsequently told by participants with lived experience within the disability rights taskforce that it was hard to get a slot to speak in most meetings due to volumes of others involved. Some mentions of BSL in recommendations were tacked on belatedly.

But whilst I welcome the establishment of the disability rights taskforce, its nature and terms of reference limit its work to the general rather than the specific, when disabled people facing barriers related to their specific conditions, including deaf people, need both.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

After last November's announcement that the Welsh Government would establish a BSL stakeholder group, the new Welsh BSL consortium of organisations representing deaf and signing people reported to me that the Welsh Government's BSL policy team have been approaching individuals and organisations about this, and that they all remain in support of my BSL (Wales) Bill.

Evidence shows that deaf people have twice the rate of mental health problems experienced by hearing populations, yet Wales is the only UK country without a deaf mental health service. The all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group of academics, clinicians and experts, both deaf and hearing, who are working with the Royal College of Psychiatrists, launched their report, ‘Deaf People Wales: Hidden Inequality’, at the Senedd in May 2022. I hosted that. In their submission to the Welsh Government's draft mental health and well-being strategy, they state that to date there have been no changes since the report was received by Welsh Government, adding the main issue is a lack of access to health and mental health services. Health and care staff do not have deaf awareness training and do not know how to book BSL interpreters. Due to complaint services also being inaccessible, few complaints are received by health boards.

When I again raised this with the First Minister last month, she stated that the Welsh Government had asked the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the NHS Wales joint commissioning committee to undertake a review to improve mental health services for those who are deaf or hard of hearing, which will inform the delivery plan alongside the strategy. We therefore need to know that the all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group will be involved in both this review and monitoring of the subsequent plan.

BSL is not just a language, it is also a gateway to learning, and the means whereby deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world. In October 2024 Qualifications Wales took the decision to suspend the development of a BSL GCSE. Part of the justification for this decision was that in Wales there is not a ready-made workforce of qualified teachers who could teach a GCSE in this subject. This gets to the crux of the argument of why a BSL Act in Wales is needed. Given the lack of BSL interpreters and translators in Wales, it is not surprising that there is also a lack of qualified teachers for a BSL GCSE.

This goes to the heart of why BSL signers are indirectly excluded from Welsh society through a lack of awareness of the barriers they face, and therefore a lack of proactive planning and adjustments made for deaf people and BSL signers. The National Deaf Children's Society Cymru has warned that falling numbers of teachers of the deaf and other issues with the Welsh Government's additional learning needs reforms is hindering deaf pupils. When I raised this with the then education Minister a year ago, he highlighted investment to support postgraduate training for local authority-based teachers of learners with sensory impairment. The National Deaf Children's Society therefore spoke to services on the ground, who told them that this is being used to keep the level of the teachers of the deaf workforce the same as opposed to expanding it, despite one in five having left the profession since 2011. They were also told that some of the funding was more targeted at ALN co-ordinators and school staff to help build deaf awareness rather than extend provision, thereby not growing the profession to support deaf children in Wales.

Deafness is not a learning difficulty, but deaf children are being disabled by the continuing inequity in outcome as the gap between deaf children and their hearing peers risks becoming even wider, in breach of the Equality Act 2010. My BSL (Wales) Bill would not be a means to an end in itself, but act as a platform to ensure improved services for the deaf community and people with hearing loss, and improve the support currently offered so people can fully engage in things like employment, health and education.

The Welsh Government has previously argued that we don't need specific Welsh BSL legislation because we have the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and the Welsh Government has commissioned an audit of their BSL provision against the British Deaf Association's BSL charter. However, a common theme emerging from the Welsh deaf community is the desire for more Welsh deaf leadership in BSL service delivery, for BSL services to be delivered by deaf BSL signers themselves, and for support to enable deaf-led professional planning and budget setting on BSL issues.

The initial consultation on this Bill has confirmed significant support for the proposed legislation, with only two respondents—one individual and one organisation—disagreeing with the need for it. Reasons for supporting the Bill include addressing the current legislative gaps in protecting and upholding the rights of deaf people, and creating parity with legislation in Scotland and England. As the BDA, the British Deaf Association, state, Welsh deaf BSL signers have seen Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities, with the best will in the world, spend money earmarked for BSL services on paying non-signers to design and deliver these BSL services, with the understandable and inevitable consequences of a mismatch between service design and actual need, reducing efficiency and value for money.

Bristol law school's Dr Rob Wilks, a Welsh deaf legal academic, argues that the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act is not addressing the needs of the Welsh deaf community, concluding that the Act's current oversight of specific provisions for the Welsh deaf community underscores a critical gap that must be addressed to ensure equitable participation and benefit from societal advancements, and that to bridge this gap, several key steps are imperative. Firstly, introducing a BSL Act tailored to Wales is crucial. With a BSL Act in England and Scotland and a proposed executive Bill in Northern Ireland, it would be a betrayal of BSL signers across Wales if a BSL Act does not come to fruition here also. Diolch yn fawr.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I would like to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this motion that I am pleased to support, and Plaid Cymru will vote in favour of the motion. I would also like to thank Mark Isherwood for his efforts in raising awareness of the difficulties and disadvantages that the deaf community continues to face in our society. Even though the Welsh Government supports the social model of disability, all of us who engage with disabled people and disabled people's organisations know that that is not really the reality in far too many parts of their lives.

Plaid Cymru is therefore pleased to support the motion to ensure that there will be a specific emphasis on the needs of the deaf community in the work of the Government's disability rights taskforce, because despite deaf and hard of hearing people representing around 18 per cent of the population of Wales, this community is often invisible in terms of societal arrangements and service availability. A recent study showed that over 80 per cent of deaf people in Wales believe that their condition makes it harder for them to access public services, and it's no surprise that they feel this way. As well as infringing upon their rights and ability to play a full part in society, this inequality also means that they suffer disproportionately from ill health, for example, like the fact that deaf people are twice as likely to suffer mental health problems compared to the wider population. It's unacceptable and I agree that it's unacceptable that Wales remains the only country without a dedicated mental health service for deaf people.

Deaf children are also 26 per cent less likely to receive an A* to C grade in core GCSE subjects, which is a reflection of serious deficiencies in the availability of relevant expertise in the workforce. We saw good practice during the pandemic through the use of BSL in the Government’s daily updates, and I welcome the recent legislative proposals to put the language on a formal statutory footing, but the decision of Qualifications Wales not to offer a BSL GCSE course is an unfortunate retrograde step.

I therefore urge the Government to review this decision, especially in the context of relevant human rights legislation and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and to continue to support and learn from initiatives such as the Deaf Health and Well-being Wales research project, an inter-institutional partnership involving Bangor and Swansea universities, which assesses how the wider use of BSL can help respond to inequalities in the health system.

The motion mentions the disability rights taskforce and its role in underlining the barriers that adversely affect the lives of deaf people.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, we were told by you, by way of a written statement on the international day of disabled people at the end of last year, that we would have an oral statement in the new year on the progress of the disability rights taskforce. Well, we haven't had one, and given that that work of publishing a disability rights action plan is so long overdue, that's disappointing. We need to hear also about the lack of progress too, and the reasons for that, on your programme for government commitment to incorporate the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people, and also what work is being done to address the disability employment gap, which is considerably higher in Wales than in the rest of the UK.

The recent inquiry on that disability employment gap held by the Equality and Social Justice Committee, of which I'm a member, heard deep and widespread concern about the lack of progress on the publication and implementation of the work of the disability rights taskforce. You co-chair that taskforce with Professor Debbie Foster, who told the committee that things, in her words, had drifted, and pointed to redirection of resources as one of the possible reasons for this. The Equality and Human Rights Cymru told us that, and I quote,

'disability does not have the same status, perhaps, as other protected characteristics.'

And

'we don't see the same focus or drive in the space of disability.'

So, how would you respond to this, and when will we get an update that could ensure progress and delivery of the support needed by the deaf community, as called for in the motion?

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In conclusion, we need to consider how the appalling impact of austerity, which was started by the previous Westminster Government, and that largely continues under the current Government, has undermined the effectiveness of public services. Recent research by RNID Cymru shows that some local authorities in Wales have had to cut spending on equipment and services for deaf people by over 50 per cent since 2010. It's important to remember that the inequalities and disadvantages that we have mentioned during this debate do not exist in a vacuum. Instead, they exist within a wider spectrum of social injustices, something that can only begin to be seriously remedied through a new fiscally fair settlement for Wales from Westminster, based on the needs of our population.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you to Mark Isherwood, and can I just say I agree with everything you said in your opening remarks, Mark? I think you said them very eloquently, and I'm not going to try and copy them.

There are two distinct groups of people who are deaf: those who are born deaf and those who become deaf as they get older. For those who are born deaf, it comes as a huge shock to the family, who have probably never met a deaf child. My knowledge of this subject comes from my sister who's profoundly deaf. What that means is she cannot hear anything; the only way she can identify noise is the vibrations it causes. What are the effects of being deaf? Try it for yourself. Try watching tv without subtitles and with the sound turned to mute. How much of a programme will you actually understand? Walk around with ear defenders or earplugs in so you cannot hear anything. You miss the sound of nature, you miss hearing people speaking. A silent world is not a good world. Although most people have wished it could be less noisy on occasions, the reality is that we need noise. When we cross roads, we use our hearing as well as our eyes to avoid accidents. What cyclists do when approaching a pedestrian from behind is they ring their bell. That's of no use to somebody who is deaf whatsoever. If you spot someone you know, you shout out to them. This doesn't work when people are deaf. If you are behind them, they will not know you are shouting. A call out to identify a possible danger will be ignored, not due to not caring, but due to not hearing. There's no way of identifying someone walking down the street who is deaf. They don't look any different to you and me. If someone has substantial sight loss, then you will see the guide dog or the white stick. If someone has mobility issues, you will see the wheelchair or the sticks they need. There is nothing similar for those who are deaf.

There's a need for service providers to meet the needs of the deaf community. The provision of British Sign Language communication support is necessary when somebody does not have a significant ability to communicate effectively as a direct result of their hearing loss. There are a lot of opportunities missed to understand what is being said. I have this quite often when I and other people are speaking Welsh; that's why I always use the translation system when things are said that are complicated. When you're deaf, you don't have that opportunity.

Health is meant to provide people who can translate in sign language for medical appointments. It should; it does not always happen. This is important so that the person who is deaf gets a full understanding of what they are being told about their health.

People with hearing loss are severely disadvantaged compared to people who have unaffected hearing. I join deaf children and young people, along with Auditory Verbal UK, to challenge expectations of what deaf children can achieve, and call for increasing access to auditory verbal therapy.

Early and effective support is vital for all deaf children. Deaf children can achieve as long as they have the support they can need, including explanations using sign language. How often do teachers talk to the board? Speaking as someone who used to lecture—far too often. When you're talking to the board, then what you know is going to happen is that anybody who's deaf doesn't even know you're talking. When this happens without sign language interpreters, pupils do not know what has been said, or even if something has been said.

BSL is the preferred method of communication for many deaf people. There was a time in the 1960s and 1970s when deaf children were taught to lip-read and speak as the preferred option. The British Sign Language dictionary was compiled for the British Deaf Association by the deaf studies research unit at the University of Edinburgh. It depicts over 1,800 common signs through pictures and diagrams, each sign accompanied by definition, explanation and usage. British Sign Language is a useful skill to have to communicate effectively with deaf people. It consists of hand movements, hand shapes, as well as facial expressions and lip patterns to demonstrate what people want to say. It is estimated that 151,000 people in the UK use British Sign Language and that 87,000 of those are deaf. I was extremely disappointed when Qualifications Wales decided not to progress with a general certificate of secondary education in sign language.

It is important that the disability rights taskforce specifically captures the issues and barriers that affect the lives of deaf people. It is very difficult being deaf. What those of us who are not deaf take for granted, deaf people cannot do. We need to have a British Sign Language Act, because it's the only other language that people desperately need as a means of communication. We need to get larger organisations, including Government, health and local government, to employ people who can confidently and correctly sign so that, when deaf people go in, they can sign and have somebody replying to them using sign. It doesn't need everybody in the organisation—I don't think anybody would expect everybody in the organisation—to use sign but there should be somebody there when you go who can converse using sign language so that the person who is deaf knows what's happening. That is what equality looks like.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I'd like to firstly begin by thanking Mark for tabling this crucial debate on the needs of the deaf community. Your ongoing commitment, Mark, to championing their rights and calling for meaningful change is something we all support.

I want to just isolate my remarks, if that's okay, to the needs of deaf children. In Wales, there are around 2,260 deaf children, and they experience a range of hearing difficulties, from mild to profound deafness. Yet, too often, they are left without the tailored support that they need to thrive. One of the most distressing issues they face today is the sharp decline in the number of qualified teachers of the deaf. In Wales, we have, since 2011, witnessed a staggering 20 per cent reduction in the number of these critical professionals.

To make matters worse, the workforce is ageing and the impact of all of this cannot be overstated. With Wales having no specialist schools for deaf learners and 81 per cent of deaf children attending mainstream schools, we are risking an entire generation of deaf children being left without the support that they need to succeed in education.

Many families report that their children receive minimal assistance, with some receiving as little as one hour of teacher of the deaf support per week. This simply is not good enough. It was therefore incredibly disappointing that the Welsh Government rejected recommendation 32 of the Equality and Social Justice Committee report last year that called for a clear plan to address the shortage of specialist teachers. Despite public petitions and strong backing from organisations like Guide Dogs Cymru and the National Deaf Children's Society, the Welsh Government continues to leave specialist training in the hands of local authorities, despite clear evidence that they lack the resources and the capacity to provide consistent and equal access. As our report demonstrated, without a structured, national approach, deaf children will remain trapped in a postcode lottery, facing barriers to learning, development and future opportunities. I therefore urge the Welsh Government to reconsider its stance, engage more deeply with deaf children and their families, and commit to a clear, deliverable plan that ensures that no child is left behind.

I'd like to just finish the rest of my time just focusing on the crucial role that speech and language therapists play in the lives of deaf children. Speech and language therapy is not just about teaching a child to speak; it's about empowering them to communicate in every aspect of their lives. For deaf children, early identification of their communication needs, with the right speech and language support, can help them to express themselves, develop language skills, and engage fully in school and society. Yet, despite this clear need, access to speech and language services remains wholly inadequate. A 2021 report from the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists found that many deaf children, particularly those who use BSL, rarely encounter professionals who share their language, creating a fundamental barrier to effective communication. Right now, unbelievably, Wales has just 0.2 full-time equivalent speech and language therapists dedicated to supporting deaf children, with another vacant position. There is nowhere near enough to meet that demand, especially considering when the average number of children and young people on the speech and language therapy lists right now has risen by 31 per cent. It is therefore deeply concerning that the newly published Health Education and Improvement Wales education and training plan does not increase speech and language therapy training places, keeping them at 55, the same as the previous year.

This failure to invest in the workforce is a missed opportunity to provide deaf children and adults with the support they need to communicate, learn and thrive. And just for the Cabinet Secretary's information, I've double checked those figures, because I had a response from the First Minister: the number of training places has not increased. So, I do urge the Welsh Government to recognise the need for more specialist speech and language therapists and commit to a clear plan for increasing training places. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd dros dro.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Can I start by thanking my colleague, Mark Isherwood, for raising such an important debate today, one that is very close to my heart? Sadly, we've spoken so many times in this Chamber, but yet we are still here asking for the same things: for the deaf community to be heard, and for their needs to be recognised. According to NHS data, there are around 480,000 deaf and hard-of-hearing people in Wales, which means that one sixth of our population struggles to hear, and this has a profound impact on their lives, putting them at enormous disadvantages.

What many people take for granted—the ability to access GP appointments and understand their diagnosis, to find suitable employment and access general public services—is a continuous and uphill struggle that has a huge bearing on their lives, in particular their mental health. Imagine, acting Presiding Officer, living day to day with the frustration that so many relatively straightforward tasks are difficult for you, not because you can't do them, but because the system has failed to recognise your specific needs, and won't let you do them. We know that this causes the deaf community to experience feelings of isolation, discrimination and stress, which contributes to their experiences of anxiety and depression, and which in turn manifests itself into mental health issues. Yet it is still a battle to get any improvement in services, mental health or otherwise, and I believe that this shames us as a country. A staggering 40 per cent of those who are deaf have mental health problems, which is twice the rate of individuals with regular hearing. The lack of positive progress in improving deaf people's access to and experiences of mental health services, in the case that the voice of lived experience has not been heard in the design and delivery of services, is a tragedy for so many people. Shockingly, south Wales has no specialised deaf mental health network, and the service in north Wales, as far as I'm aware, has been dissolved. And though Bangor University has launched a deaf health and well-being Wales project, which is a fantastic initiative, it ultimately still doesn't address the needs of the deaf community adequately. Yet, for me personally, the real tragedy of all this is that it is a relatively straightforward issue to fix, and it could have been done years ago. What is needed is the political will from this Welsh Government to actually put pressure on public service providers to listen to and incorporate solutions to the barriers that affect the deaf community. I would argue, acting Presiding Officer, that many of these barriers exist purely because public services have paid no attention to them whatsoever.

Finally, I would like to touch upon the British Sign Language Bill. Children, particularly those born to hearing parents, are disadvantaged right from birth, because they do not have access to the same education and health opportunities as their hearing peers. Ultimately, their parents are unlikely to have had experience of BSL, and are unlikely to have had contact with deaf role models. And because parents and siblings cannot use BSL, children are quickly isolated, and families struggle to communicate. The British Deaf Association estimates that the total number of people in the UK who use BSL is estimated to be 151,000 and, of these, 87,000 are deaf. If we are going to be able to provide the translation services for deaf people, if we are going to teach parents and families BSL, we, as a point of urgency, need to increase the number of BSL users and BSL teachers. I am therefore disappointed that Qualifications Wales did not progress with the GCSE in sign language. This to me is shortsighted, and this would have made a real difference to the number of people who could access BSL training, and ultimately jobs in providing translation services. I would really like to urge this Welsh Government to put this GCSE back on the agenda so that those who are out there and want to study it can. Thank you.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be able to speak here in this debate today, and thanks to Mark Isherwood for putting forward this very important motion, and I'm very pleased to wholeheartedly support it. I think it's very important that we recognise that not every deaf person’s needs will be the same. For example, not every deaf person communicates in the same way. Some rely on British Sign Language, others rely on lip-reading, therefore some people will need BSL interpreters and others will need lip-speakers. However, we all know that British Sign Language is recognised as a language here in Wales, and, according to the 2021 census, almost 1,000 people in Wales use BSL as their main language, but we are short of BSL teachers and registered sign language interpreters to allow BSL users to communicate in their preferred and only language.

The needs of the deaf community and any actions to improve the situation should have deaf people at the centre of any decisions that are made, and meetings should be fully inclusive so that deaf people can fully participate. I'm very pleased that the Cabinet Secretary announced the BSL stakeholder group, and I know that is at very early stages, but I'm sure it will progress to be very productive. I think the key thing about that group is that it does have actual people with lived experience there at the heart, and I think that's the key message we ought to get out today, that, whatever we do, we should have people who know about it leading the discussions and the actions.

I know there's widespread support for entrenching the rights of deaf people in law with the BSL Bill. I would support that move, which would help to remove barriers to education, health and public services. And, of course, as well as language rights, there are also cultural rights, and I was very pleased, and I've spoken about this in this Chamber today, at being at the unveiling of a purple plaque to Dorothy Miles in Rhyl. I think it was about a year ago. Dorothy Miles was a sign language poet and performer. And what I was so struck by, when attending that event, was that people came from all over Wales and over England as well to see what was happening, because they were so thrilled that someone was actually recognising a signer. And so, I think that does illustrate how important it is that we have this debate and that we put the spotlight on these issues here.

According to RNID's recent report, 'It does matter', 65 per cent of deaf people and people with hearing loss in Wales have experienced negative attitudes or behaviour in the last year, and 44 per cent said that they'd had negative experiences with people in shops, with shop workers, and nearly one in five said that they had experienced negative attitudes from work colleagues in the last 12 months. I don't think we can underestimate the difficulties that Mike Hedges so clearly revealed in his contribution, and I know from casework in my own constituency that the ability for deaf people to access healthcare isn't straightforward and it's often very difficult to get suitable translators for medical appointments.

We also know that much more needs to be done here in the Senedd to make it more inclusive for deaf and hard of hearing people, but I'm very pleased that the Commission is being very receptive to these calls, and I have recently had a meeting with Joyce Watson, and I'm very optimistic that we will make this Senedd operation fully inclusive. It's great we've got a signer here today, but we should have a signer for everything that happens in the Senedd. But I'm very hopeful that when we have the new system set up, which is going to be very soon, that there will be signing and that there will be written text, and that it will be fully inclusive. So, thank you very much to those people who have responded so positively to that.

So, we need to listen to what deaf and hard of hearing people are telling us about what needs to change and what needs to be better, and they need to be central in the decision-making process on the improvements that need to be brought in. So, I think, obviously, in the debate so far we have illustrated all the difficulties there are, but I think that there are positive things happening, and I think as politicians we are able to make things happen, and we are able to improve the situation and give the opportunity for everybody in our society to absolutely fully be involved in our political life, in the cultural life, and all the things that we, many of us, take for granted. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you to Mark Isherwood and to Mike Hedges for championing this cause. I think it's really important that we all embrace it. I was reading the 118 responses to the consultation that was launched by Mark Isherwood in advance on the need for a BSL Bill, and I haven't read all 118, but I have read a selection of them, which clearly indicate that we must act. We cannot ignore the level of discrimination that is out there, not least within our own public services.

Some of the people who responded said that deaf people who live in England and Scotland are reporting to their friends in Wales that many barriers have been addressed as a result of legislation. So, the deaf community in Wales feels unimportant and very behind the times and not of an equal status to their deaf peers who live in Scotland or England. I strongly feel, having reflected on this, that without an obligation to ensure BSL has equal status with any other language spoken in Wales, we will continue to discriminate against BSL users' ability to access public services on an equal basis, because I think many people don't understand that, for some people, BSL is their only language. You know, if you think of somebody who only speaks Mandarin or some other much more obscure language than that, if you can't communicate in the only language you speak, you are simply left to observe. And I think that the danger of doing nothing is really severe, and we absolutely can't let that happen.

There was one individual, a postgraduate student, who experienced discrimination when applying for jobs, working for a public service and using the health service. And another person described being asked to book a hospital procedure, 'by ringing this number'. Well, clearly, if you're deaf, you're not going to be able to ring anything, or you can ring it, but you won't be able to know when it's answered or, indeed, what instructions to follow as a result. This same individual, who was actually going for a significant procedure that required sedation, was then, on arrival, required to press a button, speak into the intercom and pull the door when the buzzer sounded. Well, none of this would she have been able to do. Then, the carer wasn't allowed to accompany that person into the clinical area, and no effort had been made to find a member of staff with even a basic knowledge of BSL. And when a nurse questioned this, the reply was, 'She can write if she needs to.' But having had to leave her phone with her carer, she couldn't even use type and talk. So, this is not a great situation for somebody about to undergo a significant procedure.

But I think one of the most troubling things is what Sioned Williams and others have spoken about, which is when somebody is born deaf, we need to gather around the whole family to ensure that they are supported, to ensure that deaf children have equal access to learn to the best of their abilities. And we're not doing that if we're not using all of the tools in the box to support them and their families. A hearing child needs exposure to speech to be able to learn to talk, but that also applies to a deaf child, and 90 per cent of deaf children are born to hearing parents. So, those parents need the proper support to learn to sign as well as the child, not just the child. And indeed signing is a really important tool to use with people with additional learning needs of other types as well, because it enables them to understand more clearly the instructions that they're being asked to follow. If you can't understand the teacher, how can you learn and how can you get the qualifications needed to get a good job? And Sioned Williams has already given us some pretty startling statistics about the underperformance at that level. And that means that we are confining people to live in poverty because of the lack of BSL interpreters in schools.

It is disturbing that there are limited numbers of qualified teachers with an additional qualification in teaching deaf pupils, and the numbers who speak Welsh as well are perhaps on the fingers of one hand. So, we really do need to change that and we need to revisit the decision by Qualifications Wales not to go ahead with a GCSE in BSL, which was dropped last year, because we must realise that insufficient support for young deaf children and their families means that some young deaf people have severe mental illness as a result of experiencing isolation and information deprivation within their educational settings.

It is widely known that it is easier to learn languages when we're younger. Young children will suck languages up like a sponge, and the best early education provision teaches BSL to all its pupils. It should be possible for all children in education to learn BSL. That is what we should expect of inclusive education.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

The Member must now conclude, please.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Okay. So, we must now proceed with both a BSL Bill as well as some changes and improvements in our public services to ensure equal access for deaf people.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, acting Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by thanking Mark Isherwood and Mike Hedges for bringing forward this Member debate. As a Government, we recognise the barriers faced by the deaf community in Wales, including deaf BSL signers, and we're determined to address these. And this debate has provided the opportunity for us to reaffirm our commitment to the recognition and promotion of British Sign Language and our determination to drive long-term positive change for deaf people across Wales. And that commitment has come over so clearly from Members across the Chamber today, so a very valuable debate.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

For too long, deaf people and their families have faced significant barriers in their everyday lives, barriers that include issues in relation to access to education, to health and social services, and to wider public services in Wales, which have also been identified today. We must build a society that respects and empowers all deaf people, to create a Wales that provides equitable access and recognises, facilitates and values BSL as an integral part of Wales’s linguistic landscape.

Understanding the lived experiences of the deaf community is essential in shaping our cross-Government policies, as Members have highlighted. We’ve begun making progress in ensuring greater involvement with members of the deaf community, including deaf BSL signers, and we are committed to strengthening this engagement further. The disability rights taskforce working groups have concluded, and the recommendations have informed the development of the new disabled people’s rights plan, and more than 200 policy officials from across the Welsh Government and 350 external stakeholders—including members of the deaf community—worked together to develop the recommendations.

This 10-year plan, due for release for consultation this spring, aims to remove barriers and create long-term positive change, and the Welsh Government wants to ensure the actions, outcomes and ambitions of the disabled people’s rights plan reflect the views of the deaf community, including deaf BSL signers. Through our disabled people’s rights plan, we will identify and respond to the barriers that impact the lives of many deaf people in Wales. Our consultation on the plan will ensure the deaf community are actively engaged in the plan and their views included and acted upon.

We will establish an external advisory board to provide advice and support and monitor the implementation, delivery and impact of the disabled people’s rights plan, including reporting, of course, on positive outcomes for the deaf community. The work of the disability rights taskforce has shown that more effort is needed to achieve equity, inclusion and participation. It is crucial that we unite in our efforts to create a more equal Wales, making a real difference in people’s lives, and I look forward to making an oral statement on the disabled people’s rights plan during the consultation period. Welsh Government’s disability equality forum continues to collaborate with individuals and organisations who are working actively towards achieving equality for disabled people.

We recognise many deaf people do not consider themselves to be disabled, and in response to this the Welsh Government has recently established the BSL stakeholder group, and I thank Julie Morgan for steering us towards this in terms of her active engagement with the deaf community. This is a task and finish group, running for approximately six months, and it will develop key recommendations to inform the Welsh Government’s production of a BSL policy route-map. This route-map will set out the actions that Welsh Government are taking to promote and facilitate BSL and improve outcomes for the deaf BSL signing community of Wales. The group will advise on BSL priorities, it will consider where there are language barriers and the actions required to ensure equity of access to information and services for deaf BSL signers across a broad range of cross-Government policy. The BSL route-map will sit alongside the disabled people’s rights plan, recognising BSL with its own unique cultural, historical and linguistic identity. The BSL stakeholder group provides an important opportunity to strengthen our collaboration for meaningful engagement with key stakeholders, acting now, allowing us to capture the challenges and barriers faced by deaf BSL signers, supporting our work towards an inclusive and equal Wales.

There is still so much more to be done, but I would like to report on some cross-Government progress that is being made. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care continues to support work on renewing and broadening the all-Wales standards for communication and information. The renewed standards will include capturing and retaining accurate patient information to allow service providers to communicate with patients clearly and effectively. There will also be robust and clear guidance for commissioning BSL interpretation and translation services, and as we progress with this work, we'll continue to engage with key stakeholders to ensure equitable healthcare services for deaf people.

Led by the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, the forthcoming mental health and well-being strategy, also due to be published this spring, sets out the importance of ensuring mental health support is accessible to all, and the mental health needs of the deaf community have been raised this afternoon by Members. The strategy will consider the diverse needs of the deaf community in Wales, and, as Mark Isherwood has said, in response to that question to the First Minister, the Welsh Government has asked the Royal College of Psychiatrists and NHS Wales joint commissioning committee to engage with key stakeholders to undertake a review to make recommendations to improve mental health services for deaf people in Wales. I will feed back the importance of involving the deaf community, including deaf BSL signers, in that review.

I'm also pleased to be working closely with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to ensure that our transport networks are safe, accessible and welcoming to everyone, including deaf people. Transport for Wales has partnered with SignVideo, a mobile app that provides immediate access to online interpreting. This is a step towards removing some of the existing language barriers for deaf people when travelling by rail.

Wales is the first country in the UK to include British Sign Language in its curriculum. To support this, we've worked with BSL practitioners and other experts, including members of the deaf community, to develop guidance on designing a curriculum that includes progression in BSL. And thank you, Jane Dodds, for calling for further engagement looking at the needs of deaf children and looking at this issue relating to speech and language therapists, which we will take back. The decision to suspend the development of BSL GCSE was taken by Qualifications Wales in their role as our independent qualifications regulator, and the Cabinet Secretary for Education and I recognise the disappointment and concern about this decision, but we welcome their confirmation that they will continue to develop BSL units as part of a new skills suite as a qualification to be available from 2027.

So, in conclusion, acting Presiding Officer, there is still so much more work to be done to create that equal Wales, and gaining lived experience through engagement and collaboration with members of the deaf community and deaf BSL signers will ensure our policies meet their linguistic and cultural needs. Thank you once again to Mark Isherwood and Mike Hedges for bringing this debate forward. Thank you, Mark, for also recently sharing with us the draft summary of responses from the consultation on the BSL (Wales) Bill, along with the draft report of the findings from the engagement events undertaken. We'll carefully consider these and continue to work with you in relation to the Bill. So, through our collective efforts, we will continue to work to dismantle the barriers faced by deaf people. We are committed to delivering positive change and, ultimately, better outcomes for deaf people across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I call now on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I thank everybody for their kind comments and for their contributions. Time is short, so I can't cover everything you said, but Sioned Williams was particularly emphasising the employment gap, the discrimination, the failure to equip people with the skills that they need and can achieve because of system breakdown and the consequential mental health impact that this can have. Mike Hedges was pointing out, of course, that some are born deaf, some become deaf and the implications of that, the need for service providers to meet the hidden needs of the deaf community, and that people with hearing loss are severely disadvantaged by comparison with others.

Jane Dodds was particularly emphasising the needs of deaf children too often left without the tailored support they need to thrive. She referred, again, to the falling numbers of teachers of the deaf, despite 81 per cent of deaf children attending mainstream school, creating barriers to their life opportunities, and she rightly, again, emphasised the crucial importance and role of speech and language therapists, contrasted with the falling number of training places and incumbents.

Joel James referred to the continuous uphill struggle accessing services because the system has failed to recognise the specific needs of deaf people, creating anxiety and mental health problems. He referred to the lack of deaf mental health networks and the need for political will from the Welsh Government to put pressure on service providers, and the need to increase the number of BSL speakers and service users.

To Julie Morgan, thank you. As she said, not every deaf person needs the same; some people use BSL, some are lip speakers, of course, and some are both. And the shortage, again, of teachers and interpreters—a theme that came from all of you. The need for the Senedd itself to be fully inclusive, with signers for everything that happens, and I take this opportunity to thank the signer for the great work he's doing trying to keep up with us all; he'll need a good, stiff drink afterwards, I'm sure. She also referenced the BSL stakeholder group—I'll just slip in that I've been advised that there were six main meetings scheduled, the first two meetings did not yield any actions and there is concern that little progress will be made. However, there is hope that future meetings will yield actions now that there is a BSL-using co-chair, Dafydd Eveleigh, representing the Welsh Government. They're watching closely.

Thanks to Jenny Rathbone. She said it's important that we all embrace this call. She referred to the 118 consultation responses—it's actually now 119; there was a late response from the Children's Commissioner for Wales. In addition, there've been 77 participants across four interviews and five focus groups, thanks to the Senedd outreach team. And out of all those numbers, only two objections: one individual and one organisation. As Jenny said, there's a danger of doing nothing. Ninety per cent of deaf children are born to hearing parents and we also need to provide support for them to learn to sign and it should be possible for all learners to learn BSL.

Again, thanks to the Cabinet Secretary for concluding the contributions. She said that the Welsh Government is determined to address the barriers faced by deaf people across Wales, to education, health, social services and wider services in Wales. And of course, there are other things like employment, which we heard referred to. She referred to the disability rights taskforce and plan and indicated that that is valuable for pan-disability issues. But we do also need condition-specific Welsh Government action for deaf people, including legislation. She referred to the BSL task and finish stakeholder group—and I refer again to the comments I made a moment ago—and emphasised that real actions are now needed. As she said, so much more work needs to be done.

I'll conclude by saying, quite rightly, so much more work needs to be done, emulating the actions in the other Parliaments across the UK where this has led to complete cross-party support for legislation and actions, reaching a point where all can agree on the best way forward, including but not solely relying on a legislative base to achieve that. So, diolch yn fawr, pawb.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Local government finance

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives debate is next on local government finance. The motion will be moved by Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to open this important debate today on local government finance, and I move the Welsh Conservative motion, tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies.

Firstly, I want to start by recognising the important and crucial role that local authorities play in the delivery of key services across Wales. Perhaps we don't recognise this enough. Instead, this Government sends diktat after diktat to local government without following it with the money needed, like free school meals, where councils are expected to pick up the shortfall. On top of that, the funding formula in Wales has always been inherently unfair, favouring Labour-controlled areas over rural Wales and north Wales. It has to change. I know it'd be like turkeys voting for Christmas for this Government, but it can't continue like this. The right thing to do is to commission an independent review on it, and I'm glad that the Plaid Cymru Members on the opposite benches agree with us on this. Rurality is a fundamental issue, and punishing councils for, well, being rural and all that entails and means for services has to end.

We are pleased to see the funding floor of 3.8 per cent, and like I said in the Chamber yesterday, it's very welcome for those councils hit hardest by this unfair funding formula for local government. But why 3.8 per cent, when one of your own party, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, has said that it needs to be at least 4 per cent? And what about the increases to national insurance and the massive burden now placed on local authorities, which don't even know how much money they're going to receive from you to cover that massive extra tax burden that your own Labour Westminster colleagues have placed upon them? That shortfall, as we know that there will be one, will have to be picked up by local councils and, of course, ultimately, the taxpayers in Wales.

Under this Labour Government's mismanagement, council tax has skyrocketed in Wales. Council tax has risen by over 200 per cent over the last two decades when Labour have been in power; that equates to £1,400 more per year. It has grown from a small contribution paid by each resident for local services to an unaffordable bill that offers poorer services in return. It seems to be the common pattern across Wales that residents are having to pay more for less. Only recently, a Labour councillor in Wales has scolded residents for putting out their rubbish, claiming that they were living too extravagantly. As a punishment, residents now face a 6.7 per cent council tax increase and the city council now plans to reduce their bin collection to every three weeks. This is what we can expect from tired Labour Governments: higher taxes and lower living standards.

The current council tax rises in Wales are the highest we've seen in recent years, well above what is considered to be normal. To put it into perspective, in 2002-03, council tax rose by just over 2 per cent; today it's an eye-watering 7.3 per cent average. The Welsh Conservatives believe that high taxes are regressive and especially damaging to low-income households. We believe that, just like in England, local people have the right to, and should have the choice of, a referendum on council tax increases over 5 per cent. This is not to punish local authorities, but to protect them and their residents. It would mean that the Welsh Government wouldn't be able to just pass the buck to local authorities by giving them insufficient moneys, forcing them to raise their own money via council taxes. It also prevents local authorities from viewing the public as a bail-out every time they run out of money or mismanage their own budgets. It would hopefully encourage healthier budget management for councils.

And what about the billions that are being sat on in reserves? Rhondda Cynon Taf has £269 million in reserves; Caerphilly council is currently hoarding £222 million of reserve funding, yet residents there are seeing council tax rises of 7.9 per cent. Let me remind Labour that reserve funding is meant to be used for desperate times—those rainy days. Well, I would argue that this is a rainy day, yet Labour are still hesitant to encourage councils to use reserves. It's completely immoral—

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Will you take an intervention?

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Yes, of course.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think you're being somewhat disingenuous about reserves. You should know by now and, surely, will have learnt this much: reserve funding is, somehow, reserved for the capital projects that are yet to come. Also, you must understand—it's very convenient, isn't it, that you've just mentioned a Labour-run authority. I'm sure that it's deliberate—I have no doubt about that. But what you haven't done so far is actually mention any of the additional money that is going and that is directed towards local authorities. You've also failed to mention the fact that they had reducing budgets for 14 years under Tory rule. You never got up and said anything about that.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch. As the Member will know, of course, that's not always the case, and reserves can be used for things that aren't capital projects. It would take the pressure off councils, wouldn't it? It would take that pressure off and not force them to raise council tax to astronomical levels in Islwyn and in other places across Wales. Conwy council's 8.9 per cent council tax rise is eye-watering, yet they're still cutting those key services and wasting, for example, £2 million in rent so far on a building that can't be used. This is what we're seeing in Labour councils across Wales. Public funds should be just that: money that's used in the best interests of the public. Instead, it's often used on vanity projects or ill-thought-out projects at all levels of government, leaving less cash to keep council tax low. Against all reason, Welsh Labour prioritises spending millions of pounds on international offices, despite foreign affairs not being devolved; £150 million wasted on an M4 relief road that never happened, and £18 million on more politicians for this place. Your priorities are all wrong. This money should be going where it's needed: to local authorities, who are delivering the key services that we all, time and time again in this Chamber, say are so important. They are at the delivery end, so this Government should be doing all they can to enable best delivery of those vital services, those key services that better the lives of the people of Wales. Wales clearly needs its own department of efficiency to cut public services—to ensure public services are delivered efficiently and waste is cut, where possible.

In order to keep taxes as low as possible, councils need to be run more like businesses. The Welsh Government needs to work with councils to ensure they are working more collaboratively, more efficiently and more effectively. The sharing of best practice, as you know, Joyce, sounds like common sense to all of us, I’m sure, but it’s just not happening. There are fantastic examples of things happening across the local authorities in Wales, but it’s just not being shared between the 22 local authorities, creating a postcode lottery for provision and education in Wales.

Social care is a brilliant example of how sharing resources across boundaries just makes sense, and it could mean efficiency savings could be made in terms of cutting council staff with huge salaries too, streamlining structures, making one head of department over an area as opposed to two or three. We need more of this. But to keep council tax low, we need more than just collaboration; we need to change the way we look at government, encouraging that business mindset, as I’ve said, so that they treat the money, public money, like their own. Would you like another intervention, Joyce? Presiding Officer—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Carry on with your contribution. Joyce Watson, you're down to be called later on in the debate, so we can await with interest your contribution then. Carry on, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Presiding Officer. I look forward to that statement. It requires a fair Government settlement, which, from yesterday, we’ve seen hasn’t happened. The people of Wales are not a limitless cash machine for Labour failures. Enough is enough. Council tax hikes, squandered reserves and bloated bureaucracy are not the answer. A fair funding system, financial discipline and respect for taxpayers are. The people of Wales deserve better: lower taxes, better services and a Government that spends their money wisely. Welsh Conservatives would fix this mess, Labour won’t, and I urge you to support our motion today.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move amendment 1.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I move the amendment. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

For 14 years, the Conservatives underfunded our councils, leaving them with impossible choices: cut services or raise council tax. Their sudden concern for council tax rises is a bit hypocritical when they created the financial crisis councils now face. Labour in Westminster claim that they are not raising taxes on working people, but, by failing to properly fund vital services, they’re forcing councils to do it for them through council tax hikes—one of the most unfair taxes there are.

Labour’s amendment today shows that they fail to address that bigger issue. They need to make urgent representations to their counterparts in Westminster to secure fair funding for Wales that would reduce the burden on councils. They also need to ensure that our local authorities are fully reimbursed for Labour’s national insurance increases on employers. And I know we don’t know the quantum yet, but I asked the Cabinet Secretary yesterday what mechanism will be used to distribute that funding, when it does come—the funding that was promised—and I’d like an answer to that today, if possible.

Alongside a fairer funding formula for Wales, Plaid Cymru supports an independent review of the funding formula and a minimum funding floor to protect councils from unprecedented cuts. Reserves are there for emergencies and long-term planning; they are not a substitute for proper funding. These crises we face are one of funding by Labour in Wales and Westminster. This is not akin to COVID, for example. Forcing councils to deplete reserves only papers over the cracks and leaves them vulnerable in future crises.

Public services are not businesses. Councils exist to serve communities, not to chase profit. This Tory obsession—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Would you take an intervention?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Go on, then.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Peredur. You may recall that, in 2013, David Cameron, our Prime Minister—the UK Conservative Prime Minister—gave three years' worth of moneys to Wales to freeze council tax. The only ones supporting that in this Chamber, for the Welsh Government to pass that on to the residents, was us, the Welsh Conservatives. So, three years of council tax freezes actually went on to other vanity projects by this Welsh Labour Government, and supported by Plaid.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We had 14 years of austerity, and hypothecating money goes against the fiscal framework. It just does. Anyway—. It's just not—. You don't grasp how funding works in this place. You can't be dictated to by Westminster what money is spent on here, so I don't agree with you there.

The Tory obsession with running public services like corporations is exactly why we see services struggling today. We should not be trying to copy Elon Musk and Donald Trump and trying to do what they're trying to do in the US. A funding floor is obviously welcome, but 3.8 per cent is simply not enough, given the scale of the crisis councils are facing. That's why Plaid Cymru calls for a minimum funding floor in future settlements that genuinely protects services.

While the Labour amendment today highlights that councils will be receiving over £6 billion from the final local government settlement, the headline figure ignores the budget pressures councils are facing, the rising costs, the increasing demand and the real-terms cuts after inflation. Plaid Cymru wants to see an urgent review to ensure councils get the funding that they truly need. A review is needed, but it must be independent and transparent. Labour's amendment suggests more of the same slow-moving process that has failed to deliver real change for years.

Plaid Cymru's position is clear: we must tackle the root cause of council tax rises, Westminster's imposed austerity, ensure fairer, longer-term funding for local government, and stop forcing councils into impossible choices between raising taxes and cutting services. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary for local government to formally move amendment 2.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Formally.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon and I'd like to focus my attention on Denbighshire County Council, if I may. The 6 per cent council tax rise announced by Denbighshire in recent weeks is technically the lowest rise across north Wales authorities, but unfortunately that only tells half of the story. This is the same local authority that is reducing library opening times, has ambitions to close public toilets, and the ongoing chaotic roll-out of the new bin system since its introduction in June last year makes it difficult to justify such increases when residents in Denbighshire are seeing no tangible benefit to tax increases and fewer services. It's the classic case of Labour in power: tax more, give less, and they want the public to be grateful for it.

Public confidence from local residents is at an all-time low in Denbighshire, with many of my constituents having very little to no faith in the local authority, which has been exemplified by the poor roll-out of the new waste system. Low confidence in local authorities serving Rhyl and surrounding areas has been a long-standing issue, dating back to at least 1974, when they demolished the old Pavilion Theatre citing unsafe structural issues, but ironically it took several rounds of dynamite explosions to eventually bring it down.

Together with the disastrous children's village development in the 1990s, the short-sighted decision to bulldoze the sea life centre, despite private sector interest in the building in more recent times, and the continued sterilising of what Rhyl is famous for through constant and overzealous local authority intervention, my constituents in this area are quite well within their rights to have their reservations about the performance of the council and ask questions as to whether their hard-earned money is being used in an effective and efficient way in the best interests of local residents.

And the Welsh Government aren't off the hook here themselves. Under Labour since devolution in 1999, local authorities in Wales have been so tightly managed from down here in Cardiff Bay that much local autonomy has slowly eroded away, effectively making local authorities branches of the Welsh Government rather than independently minded decision-making bodies that act in the best interests of local residents. Of course we need rules, together with checks and balances from national Government, but that has been over-exercised down here in Cardiff Bay, which has gone far beyond what I and many other people think is an acceptable level of state intervention.

And it's the people who have to pay for all of this. Council tax rises in Wales have doubled since 2010 and even more than that since the late 1990s. But the services are going down. There are potholes all over the place, dog poo all over our roads, the schools are underperforming, social services are at breaking point, unrealistic net-zero commitments by 2030 costing a fortune but nowhere near being achieved. I could go on but I have little time. It's time to give people a say on the future finances of local authorities, rather than council fat cats.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are you taking the intervention?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm not, unfortunately. That's why I support any council tax rise above 5 per cent being subject to the outcome of a referendum, but Labour won't agree to it as they know what the outcome would be. Vote for our motion tonight and free the great Welsh people from the shackles of overbloated authorities that aren't acting in their best interests, only their own.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

There has been a historic lack of UK Government funding for public services during the 14 years of austerity. The size of the financial cake has shrunk significantly whilst the demand for those services has increased. Many delivered by the local—. Sorry. The economic turmoil that followed Liz Truss's short tenure as Prime Minister in September 2022 made things even worse. The NHS in Wales had to find an extra £100 million to cover a massive rise in heating costs, for example.

Conwy County Borough Council's budget gap skyrocketed from £6 million to £30 million in a single year. The new administration that took over were left with scarce reserves, no housing or housing services, and it was cut to the bone. On top of that, cuts to welfare have impacted, leaving councils to pick up the pieces wherever possible. As a former deputy leader of a local authority during the years of Tory austerity, I know how difficult it is for councillors. I feel their pain in trying to set a balanced budget.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Would you give way?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Yes.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. It's over two decades since I first met the Labour leader of Flintshire County Council because of the discriminatory local government funding formula that he was seeking to campaign against. It's only two, three months since I raised here the concerns of the current Labour leader of Flintshire County Council. Because they've got an equal-bottom settlement this year, after years and years—two decades or more—of being at or near the bottom, they're facing a 9.5 per cent rise as school budgets are cut—

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Can I just come in on that?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

—opposed even by the Liberal Democrats who supported the budget here. Are you not concerned for the people of Flintshire that this obsolete discriminatory funding formula is going to impact on them?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

You're using all my time up now. I have got a—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You can carry on, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you. Without the change in UK Government last year, it would have continued to be much worse for councils. In the last Conservative—[Interruption.] Oh, Mark, if you'd like me—. Sorry, I shall respond to you. Okay, I have got the table of where Flintshire ranks over the last 10 years. I was a Flintshire councillor there. It's not been always at the bottom, very often in the middle. They have been impacted greatly by the budget and I will be speaking about that now, and have also been raising their concerns as well here.

Without the change in UK Government last year, it would have continued to be much worse for councils. In the last Conservative autumn statement, Jeremy Hunt continued to spout the usual Tory mantra, saying that public services had to be more efficient and that the UK Government wants an even smaller public state, continuing austerity. One in five councils in England last year were facing bankruptcy at the time. The UK Government has saved the bankruptcy of lots of councils.

The settlement was more than £1 billion higher than it would have been under the previous Tory Government in Westminster, but it also exposes how reliant Welsh finances are on the UK Government. There are pressures across all Welsh Government departments for public services not delivered by councils: health, transport, NRW, culture, Transport for Wales, grants for farmers, higher education, Estyn—many also impacted by a loss of EU funding, all fighting for the same money.

I welcome that there are some extra grants in this budget to help literally fill the gaps that have been left by historic underfunding, such as the £120 million two-year investment to tackle potholes and repair highways. I know the Cabinet Secretary is doing all she can to improve the local government funding settlement and lift the funding floor, and I thank Jane Dodds for working with Welsh Government on their shared priorities so that it's increased to 3.8 per cent. It does need to be higher to help those councils who have restructured, reorganised, deleted vacant posts, introduced charges so that there is nothing left except the basic statutory services; they've cut everything. A 3.8 per cent increase may seem reasonable, but it doesn't cover inflationary pressures, pay rises and the increasing need for social healthcare, homelessness or dealing with a crisis such as flooding, as happened in Rhondda Cynon Taf, high winds, snow or a water shortage, as happened in Conwy recently. Councils need a baseline in funding and, for some, this hasn't been enough without putting up the council tax to close the gap.

In north Wales, Flintshire, Wrexham and Conwy are really struggling. Gwynedd is not in a great position, but they're using their reserves, so council tax has not been used to fill that gap. The funding formula for local authorities is complicated, with lots of indices that have been evolving over the years, and the three predominant measures that impact the level of funding given to councils are population, deprivation and rurality. Realistically, any change to the funding formula would have to be approved by the WLGA and would lead to winners and losers. Deprived areas have been receiving higher funding, so if we change that, they might just become more deprived.

After 14 years of austerity, the UK Labour Government has turned a page when it comes to funding, but the scars of the last decade and a half of cuts cannot be healed overnight. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that the UK Government succeeds in its talk of national renewal, because only with this can we ensure that increased funding continues in the long term. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

So, I stand before you today to speak about an issue that has been growing for far too long, and that's the woeful finance of local government in Wales. This is an issue that affects every single one of us, whether it's the quality of the public services we rely on or the burden of higher council taxes that have become an unfortunate reality. Local councils play a crucial role in delivering essential services to our communities, from education and social care to waste management and housing, local authorities are the heart of public service delivery in Wales. But despite the importance of these services, councils across Wales are now facing significant financial challenge. They're being asked to do more with less, and it is simply not sustainable.

It's worth noting, as my colleague Laura Anne Jones has pointed out, that councils in Wales currently hold over £2 billion in usable reserves, and these reserves have been held, rolled over, year after year after year, not spent on capital projects. I was the shadow Minister in 2013, and it was £1.4 billion; it's gone up to £2 billion since. It is completely wrong for authorities like Cardiff to be stockpiling over £180 million, Carmarthenshire £190 million, Rhondda £250 million, while several local authorities, including Conwy, £15 million. Clearly, money is being unfairly distributed. I remember at the time saying, 'Why isn't that money put back into a central pot and distributed across those local authorities?', and it was Welsh Labour who actually said 'no'.

So, whilst the average council tax rise in Wales is 7.3 per cent, now that we've got Labour in Conwy County Borough Council, the rise is well above this at 8.95 per cent, on top of 9-point-something last year, and 10 per cent the year before. That's nearly 30 per cent in three years. The median wage hasn't gone up; pensions haven't gone up to that degree. And what do you get for the increase? Toilets closed, threats of library closures, leisure centre closures, weeds left, litter bins left, household domestic waste left for four weeks for collection, not the three that yours is threatening to go to. It's shameful. Residents are being asked to pay more at a time when the services they rely on are just becoming unavailable.

The situation is serious, and I cannot—. I've got to be honest, at the time Lesley Griffiths was the Minister here, I have to say that she actually was quite open to the idea of putting 5 per cent—a referendum, you know, at a cap—[Interruption.] But go for it, Carolyn.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I must point out that the four-weekly collections happened when Sam Rowlands was council leader.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

No, it did not. No, no. I have to tell you; I have to correct you on the record there. It actually was introduced, you know, you do your budget setting for the—. It was introduced before Sam was the leader of the council, before the Conservatives were in power. It was as a result of Plaid, Labour and the indies.

I'm glad that you pointed out about the shameful money that's been spent by Conwy on the HGV depot in Mochdre. We're also seeing rising costs as a result of poor choices and not enough building of homes in terms of temporary accommodation. And there are such examples of waste: £250,000 on the Craig-y-Don paddling pool at a time when it wasn't even open. They opened it after many complaints from residents and elected politicians for the last summer holiday break last year. It was disgusting.

What frustrates me, though, about local authorities in Wales is the lack of accountability. And I have to say—and they know—Audit Wales have had me on their shoulders for quite some time now, and I think it's disgusting that where you can prove there's waste of money, they will not investigate many examples, Members, if the value is under £5 million. It's shameful. Once upon a time, my own local authority would be, by now, facing a section 10 inspection, in my opinion. Every penny counts. So, this Welsh Parliament and Welsh Government should be sending a clear message to Audit Wales that where examples of local authority waste are presented, they are investigated.

Equally frustrating is the way the Welsh Government has handled the funding formula. The current formula is over 20 years old and it results in a substantial funding gap, even between Conwy and Denbighshire, Carolyn, which you represent. There's £34 million pounds' difference, and yet the authorities have the same demographic. It's crazy.

On top of this, we know the UK Government increasing national insurance is compounding the crisis. The way your Labour Government at Westminster have imposed the national insurance rise is disgraceful. In Conwy, 3.6 per cent of the nearly 9 per cent council tax increase is purely to cover this increased cost.

I've heard today, Llywydd, that the councillors' allowances in Conwy are going up. At a time when they've kicked the residents in the teeth, the Cabinet members and those running this authority—. Cabinet members going up to £40,000; deputy leader, £45,000; leader, £60,000. It's gone up from £45,000 in recent times.

We need a Welsh Conservative Government here in Cardiff Bay, led by Darren Millar. One thing is abundantly clear: our residents, our taxpayers, our hard-working families and pensioners, where they have Labour at any level of Government, it costs you more and gives you less. Next May, move over; let's have Darren Millar as the First Minister and a Welsh Conservative Government and we will fix local government in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders. Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Janet Finch-Saunders, in her contribution, talked about shameful and shameless; that's how I would describe the Conservatives not reflecting on 14 years of austerity and the damage it has done to people in our communities. Gareth Davies, I'm very sorry that you did not take my intervention because you raised the question, since 2010, council tax has doubled. What happened in 2010? What happened in 2010? Perhaps you'd like to come in?

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

We won an election.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

You won an election? And what did it mean—? [Interruption.] No, no, I'm going to—. I was asking Gareth Davies; he would not take my intervention earlier. But—[Interruption.] No, no, no, I'm going to carry on with my point, thank you very much.

In 2010, the Conservatives came into power. In 2010, do you know how many people relied on foodbanks in the UK? There were 40,898 parcels distributed. In 2024, 3,121,404. If we look at the Citizens Advice dashboard that comes into all our inboxes frequently, those with council tax arrears have now over £500 more debt than they did in 2019. It's extremely, extremely difficult for most people in society, and to not take responsibility for the damage of austerity and the impact it's had on our councils is irresponsible and shameful and shameless.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Are you aware that the first foodbank in Wales, Trussell Trust, didn't open until 2011? And when the first foodbank was opened in 2004 in England by the Trussell Trust, the aim was to have a foodbank in every town in the UK. Therefore, the numbers have gone up as foodbanks have opened; it's not a straight comparison as you described.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

But we shouldn't need foodbanks. They shouldn't have to exist. Do you know how many councils now have to provide funding to foodbanks because people are so hungry in our communities? That's the shameful and shameless legacy of austerity, and unfortunately we're seeing continuation now with the UK Labour Government, with announcements today of cuts coming to welfare. This is going to make the situation even worse for our councils, meaning that they have to spend more money helping foodbanks.

My concern in all of this, as Peredur Owen Griffiths outlined earlier, is in terms of the national insurance contributions: we don't know yet how much money will be returned to our councils, what that funding gap is. And the other issue, of course, is about the third sector and charities, which we know provide local services and support, often taking over some of the council responsibilities that have been lost due to austerity. Citizens Advice, for instance, play a crucial role, and I know a number of the local authorities in the region that I represent are really concerned to think that national insurance contributions are going to mean fewer services by the third sector and charities, where councils will then have to try and plug the gap, but with no additional funding.

Many of us here are former councillors. We know how hard people work in our local authorities, how difficult things have been because of cuts. Some departments have barely any staff, and yet pressures are rising all the time. We've seen the impact of Brexit in terms of difficulties in recruiting some staff in social care. It's really difficult. Also looking at climate change and the impact on services with more extreme weather, my own local authority, where I live, Rhondda Cynon Taf council, are doing so much work to try and help prevent flooding, but also to support communities, but with limited resources. So, we need to have an honest conversation about those statutory services, non-statutory, but also those services that are under pressure more than ever because of circumstances beyond their control, such as climate change.