Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 18 February 2025

257 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Lee Waters.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

1. What are the Welsh Government's future plans for promoting the reuse of materials within the circular economy? OQ62372

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch. Building on our recycling record, we are investing in infrastructure to capture high-quality recycled materials. We're also attracting investment from companies to reprocess materials. We're providing support to businesses to use them, and we are driving increased reuse of materials through reforms such as extended producer responsibility, to create jobs and to drive green growth.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Well, from amongst the lowest levels in Europe to the second best in the world, Wales has shown real leadership on tackling waste, and we shouldn’t pocket that; it’s a huge achievement. The huge progress on recycling was achieved with targets for local authorities, and with fines for not meeting them. Councils have a legal duty to clear litter and fly-tipping on public land, but there are currently no legal targets to tackle other waste. So, is the Government considering tougher penalties to increase repair and reuse, or to ensure cleaner public spaces? And how, then, do we use the waste that we get to use and sell, because, after all, the circular economy strategy is as much about the economy as it is about the environment, and there are some strong case studies of firms creating real value from waste? But what’s our plan for scaling that?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. It gave me great delight last week when I met all the EU ambassadors to tell them that we had the second best recycling rates on the planet. We are only 0.4 per cent behind Austria, and, as I told the Austrian ambassador, ‘We are coming for you’. And part of the way we’re going to get there is through being very serious about the circular economy and driving that performance further. And you’re quite right—one of the ways we did this is to make sure that targets were set over a long period of time, and there was investment in the infrastructure. And there’s been over £1 billion-worth of investment in that infrastructure since the start of devolution.

But I want to pay tribute today to the people of Wales, because they’ve come with us on this journey. And from a time when you would have just chucked everything into one bin, to today, where we’re all washing out our cans and cleaning everything before we put them in their bins, it’s remarkable the culture change that’s happened in our society. We could not have done that without the Welsh public, and I think we should pay tribute to them. And the fact that we can look to creating an economy, now, that comes on the back of that in terms of reuse is critical. And one of our aims is to get every council to have a repair and reuse facility—80 per cent of them are already covered, and the rest are on their way.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Prif Weinidog, last Friday I had the pleasure of joining Darren Millar and some fellow Welsh Conservative colleagues on a visit to Enfinium, a combined heat and power facility in north Wales that processes up to 232,000 tonnes of residual waste each year, converting it into energy. Crucially, key resources such as metals and aggregates are recovered, supporting the construction industry, thus contributing to the circular economy. During my visit, I heard about Enfinium’s ambitious plans to install carbon capture technology as part of a major investment—approximately £200 million. And their aim is to connect Parc Adfer to HyNet, enabling the recovery of carbon locked in non-recyclable waste. Now, this would not only decarbonise north Wales and the waste sector, but also create Wales’s largest carbon removals project. First Minister, there will always be a proportion of waste that cannot be recycled but can still serve a productive purpose, as demonstrated by Enfinium. So, how is the Welsh Government engaging with projects like this, to secure UK Government support, and to ensure Wales is included in the HyNet expansion, so that our nation can fully benefit from the significant investment?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. I think there’s definitely a place for waste to energy, but I think it is important for us also to recognise that we’re on a journey here and, at some point, we do need to make sure that there’s a transition period, and, during that transition period, there is definitely a role for carbon capture. The technology is still fairly new, but I think there are real opportunities now, and the fact that the UK Government has done a massive investment in that space demonstrates, I think, that that is certainly a route that we need to be going on.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's child poverty reduction targets? OQ62370

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Reducing child poverty is very important to the Welsh Labour Government. That's why we're investing more than £100 million a year in affordable child care for three and four-year-olds, as well as £46 million in additional funding for childcare under Flying Start, and free school meals. These Welsh Labour policies are vital to raise families out of poverty, which will help to reduce child poverty.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that response.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I have absolutely no idea what the aspiration of the Welsh Government is when it comes to reducing children who are living in poverty. If I go to Scotland, I know that they want to reduce child poverty there by 10 per cent. If I look at New Zealand, they want to reduce it by 5 per cent. And, yet, here we are in Wales, with one of the highest levels of children living in poverty, and I have no idea what the Welsh Government's vision is in terms of reducing child poverty. On the other hand, if we look at organisations like Patriotic Millionaires UK—and they're exactly what they say on the tin—they say, 'Raise taxes in order to fund our public services and help those living in the worst poverty', like our children across the UK. So, I've two questions for you, First Minister, and they are 'yes' and 'no' answers. The first question is this: will you tell Keir Starmer to tax the richest and scrap the two-child benefit cap? And a question for you—'yes' or 'no': will you introduce targets on reducing child poverty? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. Look, the decisions on taxation and how he presents those is something that Keir Starmer has to determine for himself. Obviously, we in Wales have our opportunity as well; we have decided in this proposed budget that we will not be taxing the richest in our forthcoming budget, partly because we don't have as many rich people as perhaps we'd like in Wales to be able to access the kind of taxation that would be helpful to our public services. We have made it clear in the child poverty strategy that we have very clear intentions here. We already have national indicators, which will help us to measure our progress as a nation. The monitoring framework, which will inform the next progress, is due to be published in 2025.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Jane, for raising this important issue. First Minister, the key pillar of your Government's child poverty strategy is to maximise family incomes. How can you hope to achieve these targets when it appears that we are likely to see large job cuts as a result of the UK budget? According to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, confidence among employers has fallen, and they warn of plans to cut recruitment and increase redundancies. First Minister, what assessments, if any, have you made of the impact increased employment costs will have on child poverty in Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. What we know is that there's going to be £1.6 billion in additional funding coming to Wales as a result of the UK Government's policies. That should help us to alleviate some of the pressures that we've seen after 14 years of austerity under your Government. Now, I think it's really important for us to recognise that there are people across Wales who are really struggling, and the cost-of-living crisis is still something very, very real. The very fact that there's been a 46 per cent increase in the cost of energy, for example, since 2020—. That's now baked in, so people have to deal with that; it's not going away, they're having to deal with that. The same thing when it comes to food—there's been a 29 per cent increase in the cost of food. And, again, that's been baked in. So, even if inflation goes up by a little bit now, they're still having to cope with that. I just think we’ve all got to be aware that that struggle continues, and that’s why the best way for us to tackle child poverty is to make sure people have good and decent wages, and one of the ways we can do that is to help them with childcare. Let’s get people back into work. Let’s give them those opportunities. I’m really pleased to see that we’re investing £100 million in childcare, and I know that there are ambitions to go further. Thirty hours of funded childcare is absolutely critical. The fact is that, in Wales, in primary schools, 174,000 primary school children are now eligible for a free school meal. I think this matters. This helps take the pressure off those families who are really struggling. And what we know is that you’ve got to get in there right from the beginning. So, £46 million in expanding Flying Start childcare is going to be critical. The first years of life are what makes a difference to the prospects of a child in our society.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Child poverty is a national scandal and it’s a national emergency. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation recently published a report on poverty across the UK, and Wales is set to have the highest child poverty rate, with a Labour Government in Westminster and a Labour Government in Wales. Scotland has introduced statutory targets to tackle child poverty, and they’re the only UK nation predicted to see child poverty fall. That’s not a coincidence; it’s the result of targets driving action and ensuring accountability. You’ve said again this afternoon that economic growth is the answer. Of course, it’s part of the picture, but the Joseph Rowntree Foundation argues we will fail to shift the dial on child poverty if we rely on raising economic growth alone to boost low-income family finances. Trickle-down economics doesn’t work. Do you agree that Scotland’s statutory child poverty targets and greater powers over welfare have allowed them to take meaningful action on child poverty? Will you introduce legal child poverty targets for Wales, and are you making the case for Wales to have greater powers over welfare?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. We’re certainly not relying on expanding the economy alone. The fact is we are pouring money into helping to reduce poverty in Wales, which, obviously, helps reduce child poverty. The fact that we have a council tax reduction scheme, for example, helps 260,000 people on low incomes and in vulnerable households. That makes a difference to the money that they would otherwise have to find. It’s quite remarkable that, of course, the answer that Plaid Cymru have always is to spend more money. They want to increase child benefit, they want to extend free school meals, and they never tell us how they’re going to pay it, and they’re intending to vote against the budget.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

It is, Presiding Officer, a standing rebuke to our politics that we are willing to tolerate such high levels of child poverty, and we hear the crocodile tears from a Conservative Party that presided over industrial-sized increases in child poverty across the whole of the United Kingdom. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that if we’re to address the issues of child poverty, the two-child benefit cap must be lifted. You know that will have an immediate impact. We also know that the provision of services from the Welsh Government would benefit from a fair funding formula where Wales has its funding determined by need and not simply per head of population. If we are to see economic growth, then we’re not going to see economic growth outside of the European single market, and the sooner we rejoin that the better.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. There is, obviously, concern around the two-child limit, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has raised this issue personally in the UK Government’s ministerial child poverty taskforce. And you’re quite right—we are also very interested in seeing a principle-based approach to UK funding and fiscal frameworks, and this would involve replacing the Barnett formula with a relative needs-based system. It does need to be done. We are being short changed. We will keep on making the case.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, what does the Labour Party, and more importantly your Welsh Government, have against older people?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Have against what?

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Older people.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Older people. I don't think we've got anything against older people. In fact, I think we put a huge amount of support into supporting older people. So, for example, they are the people who make most use of the NHS, and we are pouring money into the NHS. They are making a huge use of that facility, and that's something that we should be very proud of.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm afraid, First Minister, that actions speak louder than words, and the performance of the NHS and other services impacting on older people says a very different story. And the truth is that Labour in Wales and in Westminster have been an absolute disaster for our older people in Wales. You have opposed a Bill to protect the rights of older people in Wales; you've broken promises to Women Against State Pension Inequality women; and within just days of taking office in July of last year, the Labour Chancellor cruelly scrapped winter fuel payments for 0.5 million Welsh pensioners. Now, First Minister, these are not just people on a spreadsheet, these are our parents and our grandparents, yet this winter, thousands are being forced to choose between eating or heating. You just mentioned the 46 per cent energy increases, which are now baked into our energy supply system. And due to that decision by the Chancellor, according to your own Labour figures, thousands of people are going to die.

So, can I ask you, First Minister, what action have you or any of your Ministers undertaken to make sure that representations have been made? Have you picked up the phone? Have you sent any e-mails? What letters have you exchanged with the UK Government to spell out the desperate consequences of this cruel decision on Wales and our Welsh pensioners? And if you have taken any actions, why don't you share that information with us and publish any correspondence?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. Well, we, of course, were the first nation to introduce an older people's commissioner, demonstrating that we needed to make sure that there was an independent voice for them, and now we have a champion in every local authority, speaking up and making sure that the voices of local people and older people are heard.

Now, those decisions in relation to the winter fuel allowance were decisions for the UK Government, but what we do have are warm hubs, and we have put £1.5 million into that support over this winter, making sure that people have that facility. We're spending £30 million on helping to insulate people's homes and putting in new facilities and mechanisms for them to heat their homes. And, of course, older people also benefit from having free bus passes in Wales, which is something that many now just take for granted. Well, these things don't happen by accident, they happen because it's a political priority for our Government.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

A free bus pass isn't going to pay the energy bills of hundreds of thousands of older people across Wales. You try to pass the buck always to the UK Government. The reality is that your Scottish Labour counterparts have had the bottle to stand up to the UK Labour Government. They condemned the decision to axe this lifeline for our pensioners, but what has the Welsh Government done? Well, you lost your bottle. You've done absolutely nothing. You've not condemned the decision of the UK Government at all.

Now, let me give you an idea about something that you could do to sort this situation out, to redeem your position, something that we Welsh Conservatives have been calling for for some time. We want to see you establish a Welsh winter fuel allowance. It'd cost around £100 million per year, and you have this money available to you and could make it available by simply reversing your decision to continue to increase the Welsh Government's own central administration costs, which by the end of the next financial year will be £117 million higher than they were two years ago—£117 million that is being spent on bureaucrats. Now, I know where pensioners would rather see that money invested; they would rather see it invested in helping them with their energy bills. So, can I ask you, First Minister, will you finally stand up for Wales and will you accept our proposal to invest in a Welsh winter fuel allowance to protect our vulnerable pensioners?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Look, I think it's really important that we focus on the things where we have responsibility, and that's what we will continue to do. We are focusing on the things that matter to the people on our streets, those bread-and-butter issues that they told me about at the beginning of my term as First Minister. And at the top of that list was the NHS, and that's why we're putting more money into the NHS, bringing those waiting lists down, making sure that we respond, mostly to older people who make fantastic use of the NHS in our communities. Let me be clear, you're quite happy to say, 'Spend it here'; you never tell us where we should cut it from. I think it's really important for people to recognise that there is £1.6 billion additional funding coming into Wales, and the people of Wales will note that you intend to vote against it. That is not a vote for Wales, that is a vote against the people you represent.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru leader, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. A viable higher education sector is crucial to the future of Wales, but at the moment it is not sustainable. We saw that in the announcement made by Cardiff University: 400 jobs under threat. Today we hear of the threat to cut jobs and close courses in the University of South Wales.

This morning we had an announcement about a new package of capital funding for Welsh universities, and whilst I welcome that, that isn't the problem that we're really facing, is it? It doesn't tackle the day-to-day funding issues in our institutions. The announcement also talks of the Welsh Government's input into the Whitehall review of higher education. Again, that's entirely proper in and of itself, but there needs to be a review of the decisions that we can take here in Wales. I do think that there's room for us all to come together to deliver that.

Last week we wrote to the Minister for higher education asking her to support a cross-party review. In agreeing on a remit together, by working with the sector, we can jointly look at how funding works at the moment, support for students and consider a new funding model. May I therefore invite the First Minister to accept that invitation of collaboration and to start cross-party discussions in order to put a review in place?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. It's a shame, because actually we could have continued our discussions had we been in a partnership agreement, but we noted that you walked away from that. So, we will, of course, note that the universities—[Interruption.] You walked away from that. There are opportunities for us to engage. And, of course, listen: we're always happy to listen to other people's ideas. I think we have to recognise our universities are a key component in terms of driving economic growth and supporting research and innovation, but they have had to make very painful choices to make sure that those institutions are on a more firm financial footing. It's imperative that they work in social partnership when they are making those decisions.

Now, the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister responsible have invited all the vice-chancellors to a round-table meeting in early March, and I'll be joining them for that meeting. We have done a lot to support the sector, and I'm really pleased that you have welcomed that £18.5 million in capital funding this year to support efforts to reduce operating costs. I think that, I hope, will bring some relief to the sector.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

She really couldn't help herself, could she? I could remind the First Minister of how the Labour Party in Wales walked away from a review of council tax that would help the poorest households in Wales. We need to think differently about how we use public funds in Wales, getting more bangs for our buck. Health is the same in that respect. When the First Minister came into office, she said that her immediate priority was to reduce NHS waiting lists, but since the 2021 Senedd election, Welsh health Ministers have invested £1.5 billion with the stated aim of bringing down waiting lists, and they have failed. In that time, the number of patient pathways has increased by 200,000. Now, the First Minister tells us today that she is pouring money here, there and everywhere. If the First Minister does think that it's all about money, what assessment has she made of how big the bill is going to be for Wales before she does finally deliver on her promise?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. You'll know that there was a huge backlog as a result of the pandemic, and I think the people of Wales wanted us to make sure that we invested that money. Now, I think there are questions around whether we are getting the best efficiency from the system. I think we're employing more people in the NHS than we've ever employed before. We're not quite seeing the kind of outcomes that we think we should be seeing for the investment that's gone in, and so that is certainly something that I know the health Secretary is looking at, and that £50 million of additional funding that's gone in is just starting to work itself through the system. That is something I hope we will see a difference in in the forthcoming weeks.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

What the First Minister can't bring herself to admit is that the state of our public services in Wales is all of Labour's making, and what I'm afraid we're seeing is a lack of a plan to follow the pounds, the increased investment when we see it. Of course we need to see investment in the NHS, that's important, it's vital, but patients and staff need to see that investment delivering results.

Now, for dentists speaking out today, it's making sure that we do have NHS dentists in two years' time that's of concern. That is how serious they think a lack of a plan by Welsh Government is. Plaid Cymru's plan involves new contracts. It involves a strategy around recruitment and retention. So, what is the First Minister's change in approach to stop the British Dental Association's predictions from coming true and to avoid more people having to take out their own teeth?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. First of all, I think it's probably worth noting that dentists had a 6 per cent increase this year, which was a significant increase, and is significantly more than was paid in England. And what we have seen, in the contract that they have currently, is that around a sixth of the population Wales have seen a dentist as a result of those changes. That is not an insignificant number, and it's something that England is looking at and saying, 'We'll have a bit of that, please.' I think it's also important to recognise that we have spent 13 months working with the British Dental Association to design a new contract, and that contract will be going out to consultation very shortly.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

3. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to the use of new emerging technologies that support the undergrounding of energy transmission infrastructure? OQ62371

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

In Wales, we will decide whether any specific proposal is acceptable through considering its impact and how proposals take into account our policies and the requirements of people in Wales, and we'll encourage developers to explore all practical options.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, First Minister. Green GEN Cymru are proposing to build a substation and a 132 kV overhead energy pylon route across a large part of north Powys. Now, if this pylon route was built, this would be an unacceptable visual impact across an area of such natural beauty. You and your colleagues have often responded to me that undergrounding would be extremely expensive, and would, in many cases, make projects unviable. Now, in other parts of Europe, undergrounding is now common practice. In Germany the Government mandate undergrounding, they contribute funding, along with expecting transmission operators to contribute. In the Netherlands, the Government, in most situations, require undergrounding of power transmission lines of below 220 kV. Again, the Powys proposal is 132 kV. Can I ask: are these the issues that you are discussing with your UK Government colleagues and Welsh Government colleagues here? And if other European Governments can mandate the undergrounding of electricity transmission cables and provide funding to do so, why can't you?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I think it is important for us to recognise that there is likely to be a massive increase in terms of electricity demand by 2050—almost triple what we currently use—and so updating Wales's grid system will be essential. It'll be important to the people in your constituency who simply won't be able to get around, frankly, in electric vehicles unless we have an energy system fit for the purpose in the long term. So, that upgrade is going to need a huge amount of investment, and some of that cost is likely to fall on energy users. And what we know is that a lot of people are struggling with the cost of energy already. So, we do have to balance things here. It's about balance. It's about making sure we can make those investments and make sure we can keep costs as low as possible. So, what we've done is we've got the independent advisory group, who are looking at new technologies, and they're agreeing principles for the most appropriate solutions for Wales. I think it would be premature to make decisions about changes to policy before that advisory group reports back.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The current policy says, doesn't it, First Minister, that Welsh Government wants undergrounding, unless that would mean that an otherwise acceptable project would be unviable? Do you accept that one of the problems at the moment is that the test of viability is basically approached purely from the say-so of the developer? There's no set formula or an independent process of verifying when the developer says it's unviable. So, are you looking, First Minister, at changing the planning policy so that there is a standard method of assessing viability, we're not just dependent on the developer that has a vested interest to say it's unviable, and there is an independent process of verification so that Planning and Environment Decisions Wales has suitably qualified expertise, so we don't just simply accept it when Green GEN or another developer say, 'We can't underground'?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks. I think this independent advisory group is, we're hoping, going to agree some of the principles for the most appropriate solutions for Wales, and they'll be creating a public evidence base to support those principles. I think it is important for us to get the balance on this right, because I do think that we can't ignore the issues of fuel poverty in this debate as well.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the high-street economy in Wales? OQ62368

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We recognise our high streets are vital to the economy of Wales and we are using a number of levers to ensure they can thrive. This includes investment in town centres, non-domestic rates relief, support through Business Wales, and implementation of our retail action plan.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'd like to raise concerns regarding the creeping death of the Welsh high street and how profound this concern is amongst local communities, and how it is not getting the attention from the Welsh Government that it deserves. I've raised this issue before in the Chamber, but constituents share their concerns with me that once vibrant high streets are becoming a shadow of their former selves. The diversity of our high streets is disappointing. Many independent outlets with decades of service to the community are closing, sadly, and we're seeing more and more vacant commercial properties and a proliferation of the kind of business singled out by the National Crime Agency as more frequently linked to organised crime: cash-only barber shops, vape shops and junk food outlets, with many of the same types of businesses operating in the same location, and ones that sully the hard work and name of the legitimate traders in these unregulated fields.

The closure of a diverse range of long-established businesses is symptomatic of an ailing local economy, and there are, of course, global economic and technological changes that have driven this change. But both Labour Governments at either side of the M4, I'm afraid, have left small businesses high and dry. So, can the First Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing to recognise that our high streets are some of the most beleaguered in the United Kingdom, and what are they going to do to reverse this decline?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thank you very much for that very long question. The state of our high streets was certainly something that came up on my listening tour. So, we are taking this very seriously. And I think an area's identity and its pride lies in its local high street, and certainly this Labour Government is supporting them to thrive.

I'm going to give you an example from your own constituency. We've got this Transforming Towns funding, which is not an insignificant amount of money. Just in Rhyl town centre, we've spent £20 million. That's not a small amount of money, and that's on improving and adapting—[Interruption.] Listen, you spoke for a long time; if you don't mind, I will finish. We are working with Denbighshire County Council in further developing a placemaking plan for Rhyl, and we've also got the Queen's Market site—a £13.2 million project—and that's supported by a £6.3 million Transforming Towns grant. So, you say we're not doing anything. That is quite a lot of money in your one—in your one—town. We're doing lots of this across the whole of Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. One only needs to visit Bangor high street to see how some of our shopping centres have declined over time, despite great efforts to improve the situation, including a plan for a health and well-being centre at the old Debenhams site.

Turning to another aspect, the Local Government and Housing Committee of the Senedd heard that turning vacant space on our high streets into homes could help to mitigate the housing crisis, while also bringing new life to our high streets. But the committee also heard that the Welsh tenants association, the Tenant Participation Advisory Service Cymru, had argued that there needs to be more flexibility in terms of the criteria that have to be reached in repurposing vacant properties into permanent social housing. So, can you commit that your Government is working with TPAS Cymru and others to make it easier to turn shops and empty buildings into social housing, houses that are desperately needed?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. Certainly, when I spoke to people on Bangor high street, they were very eager to see what we could do, and I'm pleased to see that that project in Debenhams to create a health and well-being hub is going to open, and that's very important, I think, in terms of bringing people into the city centre. I know that the same thing is going to happen in the area of Carmarthen as well. I think that that does show the kind of work that we are doing jointly with local councils. It is important that we do take the opportunity to look at what we can do on our high streets, and there are examples of where changing shops into homes is working very well. I think that we also have to recognise that changing things is more expensive sometimes, so we have to ensure that we strike the right balance in terms of ensuring that we do the most that we can with the funds available to us.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Many of our high streets rely on being public transport hubs, and, last year, I worked with residents, Arriva, Transport for Wales and Denbighshire council to ensure that a service was reinstated to the village of Llandegla. Arriva have just increased frequencies to the No. 11 bus, which travels from Rhyl through Denbighshire and Flintshire, and they want to improve punctuality and are very keen to grow the network and patronage of it. Transport for Wales say that rail passengers have increased by 25 per cent, so I'd like to ask: how will the Welsh Government help promote public bus transport as well, which employs many workers across north Wales, as being a lifeline connecting people to town centres? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Carolyn, and thanks for all your work on efforts to bring that service, additional service, to Llandegla. I think we've got to recognise the huge dependency many people in our communities have on buses. We tend to focus quite a lot on trains; actually, far more people use our buses. We need to make sure we stand by them and with them, and I do think that this reregulation of our bus services and the Bill that will be passing through this Chamber shortly will be a real opportunity for us to rethink how we prioritise bus services in our communities, and it's really good to see that there's already been a 25 per cent increase in your particular area. Thank you.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

5. Will the First Minister provide an update on the use of artificial intelligence within the Welsh Government-funded public sector? OQ62328

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Artificial intelligence is already used by numerous parts of the public sector to deliver excellent services to the people of Wales. Organisations using AI need to do so ethically, inclusively and safely to mitigate any potential risks to the workforce, human rights and society.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the First Minister for that response? I want to ask about productivity and efficiency, which is important for the Welsh public services to improve performance and reduce costs. We know that the Welsh health service has a poor record in using technology. Things such as computerised medical records, automated prescriptions and automated appointments either do not exist or exist in only a few places. We now have an opportunity to use artificial intelligence. A report from the National Academy of Medicine identified three potential benefits of AI in healthcare: improving outcomes for both patients and clinical teams, lowering healthcare costs and benefiting health. From preventative screening to diagnosis and treatment, AI is being used throughout care throughout most of the world. Can the First Minister commit to using it in Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much, and I can assure you that we are already using it. I saw it a couple of years ago, even, being used in Betsi Cadwaladr in relation to scanning people who had a range of conditions, including prostate and breast cancer. It's quite, quite remarkable how the system, then, is sped up and is more accurate, and all of that is transformational, then, obviously, for the patient, which is what we want to do. But I think it is important for us to take very seriously the opportunities around the safe and ethical use of AI, and I was very pleased that last week, the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing set out our aspirations for Wales to be at the forefront of safe and ethical AI use, and that includes investments in data and skills infrastructure.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

AI not only has the potential to transform our society and our lives, it is already doing that, whether we like that or not. But, to ensure that it improves our lives for the better, we need to make sure that we're making the most of the opportunities of AI, particularly in the public sector and in our NHS. Last year, Sam Rowlands, my colleague, raised with your predecessor—with your immediate predecessor, I should say—the case of Moorfields Eye Hospital and University College London working together to identify sight-threatening eye diseases and other health conditions such as heart attacks and strokes, and using AI to do that in the health service. Now, that system has been made open source; it's freely available. It doesn't seem that Welsh Government, since Sam Rowlands made those calls, has made use of that specific bit of tech, so I wonder if you can update the Senedd on the work in that area to make sure that AI is working in our health service.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, and we're very aware of that innovative technology that's used. In fact, I went to have my eyes tested a couple of weeks ago, and they were using AI in a shop, so this is not something that is unusual today. It is something that is already used in ophthalmology surgeries.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the work of Cardiff capital region? OQ62357

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Working collaboratively across public, private and academic sectors, as well as across all tiers of Government, the Cardiff capital region has committed funds of £416 million to projects that support interventions across four strategic themes. They are skills and employment, innovation, connecting the region, and regeneration and infrastructure.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. You will have, hopefully, seen reports recently of a court case brought by an underbidder for the demolition contract of Aberthaw power station in the Vale of Glamorgan. The potential liability to Cardiff capital region is in excess of £10 million. I am amazed that the Welsh Government have not brought a statement forward to clarify the position on this, given that they are one of two major stakeholders—the UK Government being the other—in the Cardiff capital region's finance streams. Can you give me an assurance, First Minister, that your Government is actively working with the Cardiff capital region to make sure confidence is not lost because of this loss of trust in the tendering process, which, potentially, has the taxpayer on the hook for £10 million-plus of losses to the underbidder? And can you confirm that it is only this bidder that is the one who has made a case against the Cardiff capital region, and that none of the other bidders will be making a claim, given the potential losses that the capital region faces?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I think it's disappointing that the Cardiff capital region have had to concede liability, and I'm sure they'll be investigating the circumstances that led to this situation. I think it is important to note that the Cardiff capital region acts independently of the Welsh Government in its investment decisions. Of course, though, we will and we do monitor the outcomes achieved through its activities. But the procurement challenge at Aberthaw power station is, obviously, the subject of live legal procedures, so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to comment further.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

7. What steps is the Government taking to strengthen the health service in Dwyfor Meirionnydd? OQ62340

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Our priority is to provide health services that deliver the best possible outcomes to the people of Wales, including those in north Wales. We will be guided by the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice to deliver the high-quality care that people deserve.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response, First Minister. You will be aware of the difficulties in Bro Dysynni, the Tywyn area, in south Meirionydd. I was very grateful to you for your visit when you were Cabinet Secretary for health, and you visited the hospital some two years ago, but since your visit two years ago, nothing has changed. The Dyfi ward of the hospital remains closed and that is because of a shortage of nurses there and the failure of the health board to secure new nursing staff; despite the Kerala programme and the fact that there are nurses from Kerala that came to Dolgellau, we haven't seen adequate numbers of nurses in Tywyn. The department remains closed. But there are patients from Bro Dysynni and Tywyn who continue to be in Bronglais hospital in Aberystwyth, there are others in Dolgellau hospital, so the demand is there locally. We need to see action in terms of getting more nurses here in Wales, trained here, for our community hospitals. So, what commitment can you give me today that we will see those nurses being employed in Tywyn?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I was very aware that that ward in Tywyn Hospital had closed, and that more beds are available now in Dolgellau, and hopefully, they will help the situation. I do know that the health board is very eager to reopen the Dyfi ward. The problem is that recruitment. It's not like they haven't been trying; they have been trying to recruit people. That's why I think it is important that we do recruit locally, and the fact that we have a nursing school now in Ceredigion, that, hopefully, will help, but of course it takes some time for them to go through the system. Also, we are recruiting in areas such as Kerala, and hopefully that will help us to recruit people to help our services. It's not an easy situation; they have been trying very hard to get people to work there and they're very eager to reopen that ward.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

8. What is the Welsh Government doing to reduce domestic energy costs? OQ62361

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Welsh Government has invested more than £30 million in our Warm Homes Nest scheme this year to support investment and advice to reduce energy bills. Welsh Ministers continue to work with the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets and energy companies on actions to reduce the cost of energy for vulnerable households.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

First Minister, your Welsh heating strategy states that this Government will restrict gas boilers, with the aim of introducing a ban, and that you will work with the UK Government to phase out gas boilers. This is despite heat pumps, the alternative to gas boilers, costing £14,000 to install and your own Welsh heating strategy stating that heat pumps are 16 per cent more costly to run than gas boilers. If heat pumps are mandatory in Wales, many people will be slammed with yet another massive cost to heat their homes. Households in Monmouthshire, for example, are already paying 40 per cent more in energy costs than before the pandemic, pushing even more people into fuel poverty, which you've already recognised in an earlier question today.

First Minister, you have said several times today that people are already struggling with energy costs and that there's a real need to keep those costs low. So, can you rule out the possibility that gas boilers will be banned in Wales in the future, or is this just another cost that home owners can expect? Diolch.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Look, my interest is in making life easier for people and in finding a way where we're not thrown around by the vagaries of one country invading another. That's the reason why energy costs have gone up so much—40 per cent is a huge amount and we're all struggling with this. It's not just the public, but public services are having to pay that additional cost. So, the answer is not, 'Let's just keep going with gas because it's cheapest', because you just get locked into that and our children will get locked into that. And that's apart from that climate change argument.

So, what we need to do is to shift into the renewable energy space. It will be a difficult transition and we do have to find ways of doing that that will not be too expensive. Now, that is difficult. The technology is improving all of the time. I heard recently that part of the reason why the heat pumps don’t work as well as they should is because the people installing them are not specifically trained just in heat pumps, but actually, they are plumbers who've adjusted and adapted, and that's really important, but what can we do in that space? Are there opportunities for us? So, I don't see this as a problem, I see it as an opportunity for us and I think it's really important. And I recognise that the costs are big and I think we have to be a bit creative in terms of how we get people to install them, knowing that their bills are going to come down over the long term.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be questions to the Counsel General and the Minister for Delivery. Jane Hutt is answering today on behalf of Julie James. The first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like a statement, please, on what steps the—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I don't think you could've been concentrating, Janet Finch-Saunders. This is the questions to the Counsel General. I think you should put your phone down every now and again. I think I should too; it's not just you—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, yes. Point taken.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

—but if you can make sure that it's—.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes. I think that's a little unfair, really. I was doing my work when I was actually—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Janet, please, take it with some respect from me. I respect you as a Member, but please be ready to ask the question that you are tabled on this agenda to be asking at this time. I called you, and you were incorrect in thinking we were discussing something completely different. So, please—.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I thought it was business—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, it's not business questions. Don't keep challenging me back.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I'm not.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

This is questions to the Counsel General. Now, ask your question. You are question No. 1. You have been very fortunate to be called out as question No. 1. Please be ready to ask it.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you very much. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

1. How does the Counsel General reconcile the Welsh Government's different priorities to ensure policies are delivered effectively? OQ62339

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. The role of the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery is to convene work across Government to support Cabinet Secretaries to deliver the Welsh Government's programme for government priorities in a joined-up and integrated way. Responsibility and oversight for each area remains with the relevant Cabinet Secretary.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. The Welsh Government has two Bills aimed at protecting and safeguarding the environment: the environmental principles and biodiversity Bill and the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill. All of us do agree on the need to embed environmental principles into Welsh law and on introducing targets to protect and restore biodiversity. However, this climate change legislation is now falling as part of a pattern of actions by the Welsh Government that could result in increased reliance on imports from abroad.

According to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we must be a nation where doing anything to improve the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales takes account of whether doing such a thing may make a positive contribution to global well-being. The closure of Ffos-y-fran has resulted in increased reliance on coal imports from abroad. The sustainable farming scheme could result in increased reliance on food from abroad. We appreciate the need to tackle climate change, but how can we be saying that in one breath and then allowing the import of goods such as these, therefore making our carbon footprint much larger? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. I very much appreciate your experience and your scrutiny as a member of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee and climate change spokesperson for the Welsh Conservatives. You have recognised the importance of the well-being of future generations legislation, and, indeed, it's the tenth anniversary this year of that all-important legislation. Of course, one of the key points of the legislation is the ways of working, and ways of working that focus on integration.

So, I think it's really important that we've actually just been, in the response to the last question to the First Minister, really reflecting on that challenge that we have in terms of ensuring that we do seek to have green growth and jobs—very much the First Minister's priority—and green growth and jobs that tackle climate change and restore nature while making families better off. That's the challenge, in terms of transition, again, in terms of our fuel sources, and accelerating planning decisions to grow the Welsh economy. So, crucially, we do have that well-being of future generations to help us move forward to ensure that we can have that green growth and transition, and recognition of the impact.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

2. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding its powers to mitigate the effect of the UK government's decision to cut winter fuel payments? OQ62329

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I think this is an important question; thank you very much, Delyth Jewell. The winter fuel payment is devolved to Northern Ireland, and will be to Scotland from 2025, but it's not devolved to Wales, so we're not able to legislate for an equivalent winter fuel payment scheme. But we do continue to use our powers to fund our fuel voucher, discretionary and Warm Homes Nest schemes.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

There was a rally recently on the Senedd steps about this issue. Westminster's decision to cut the winter fuel allowance will lead to hardship and misery for thousands of pensioners across Wales, and what makes it all the more cruel is that it is a political choice to make this cut, a choice made by a UK Government obsessed by the idea of growth as an abstract concept, whilst apparently being oblivious and uncaring about the reality of poverty in people's lives.

As you've said, Scotland and Northern Ireland have been able to lessen the blow of this cut. They have powers in this area that can either restore the winter fuel allowance or make one-off payments. I'd like to know, please, what the legal situation would be for us in Wales in terms of what further powers the Welsh Government could call for that would enable us to lighten this burden placed on pensioners, because as Unite in Wales have said, a failure to act will be long remembered and unlikely to be forgiven.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for that supplementary question. It is important and we've already reflected on that this afternoon with questions to the First Minister. To clarify again—I have done so in my role as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice—the Welsh Government doesn't have the powers to legislate for any form of winter fuel payment scheme. You can reference that in the Government of Wales Act 2006. It reserves social security schemes supported from public funds to the UK Parliament. That's from GOWA.

But we can deliver non-statutory schemes, provided it is something that is for a particular crisis, and that's what we did with the post-pandemic cost-of-living crisis. So, that is something where we were able to have that one-off, if you like, as a result of that particular pressure on people post pandemic, that one-off payment that could be treated as a local welfare provision. I hope that clarifies the legal point.

But of course it is about political choice, and it comes back to budgets, doesn't it? So, on 15 November, I announced a further £700,000 to support the work of the Fuel Bank Foundation here in Wales, bringing our total investment this year to £1.2 million. This is something where I don't think the previous UK Government had a partnership with Fuel Bank Foundation. We entered that partnership, and indeed it has delivered, and continues to deliver a great deal of support to people who are in fuel poverty and on the edge of it.

But also, I think our fuel voucher and discretionary assistance schemes do help people in crisis with fuel costs, and the £30 million, which will be discussed as well this afternoon, for Warm Homes Nest. So, it is it is about what we can do with our powers at particular times in terms of priorities and our budgets.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you'll be aware of the Law Society's paper, 'From Caernarfon to Caerdydd: Reimagining Justice in Wales 2030', which highlights some of the challenges facing the legal sector here in Wales. One of the themes in that report is improving the strength and sustainability of law firms operating across the country. Can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support legal businesses here in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

It's very important that we see how we can respond to that policy statement, and I think this does follow through from some of the points in responding to the first question this afternoon, for the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery to look at this from across all aspects of policy and priority, not just for our Government, but for our programme for government, particularly in terms of the strength and sustainability of our rural communities. Of course, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs is very engaged in ensuring that that sustainability and strength that you can seek, which is clearly about achieving that social—. It is a social, environmental and economic justice that we're looking for, isn't it? But I would also say that this does take us back to the important role and the levers of the well-being of future generations Act in driving forward and supporting Government in terms of policy making and budget decisions.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, according to research by the legal services board, only 8 per cent of legal service providers currently provide online services to their clients. That has got to change, and the Welsh Government needs to do to more to actually invest in the sector. Therefore, can you tell us how the Welsh Government is ensuring the sector is adopting the most up-to-date technology and infrastructure, and can you also tell us what funding and support are actually being made available so that firms are able to embrace these new technologies?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

This is something that the Counsel General, I know, is very engaged with, and is engaging on with the legal profession, the Law Society and, indeed, with the UK Government, in terms of access to the legal services that are so important. But I think you make a really important point about the fact that this also needs to be about how they can access help and how businesses and, indeed, citizens can access those legal services through digital access and online services.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, the Counsel General has spoken publicly about the future of the legal sector in Wales, calling it, and I quote,

‘the glue that holds society together’.

However, that glue won’t stick for much longer. The sector has faced massive underinvestment, and there has been severe lack of recognition of the contribution of the legal services sector to the Welsh economy. Now, it has been said that we have a nineteenth-century legal system in twenty-first century Wales. And so, can you tell us how the Welsh Government is recognising the contribution of the sector to the Welsh economy, and can you tell us one action that will be taken in this Senedd to show legal firms in Wales that the Welsh Government is working to help transform the sector for the better?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. I have mentioned the Law Council of Wales, which is important in terms of engaging with the sector for legal services, and the Law Council, indeed, considers matters relating not just to legal education and training, but the business of law and the growth of the legal sector, and, importantly, responding to your second question, legal technology and innovation. It is, of course, for the law council and its executive committee to agree on priorities, but it is important that the Law Council of Wales, launched back in 2021, does play that role. It does have a secretariat, through the Law Society, and, indeed, the Counsel General is engaging on those really important points in terms of access to legal services in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Government has received the standards committee report on deliberate deception, but that’s under embargo, so I won’t address its content now. But there is strong public interest, nevertheless, on the preparatory legal drafting work done so far. The Deputy First Minister, who’s sat near you, has suggested using the Senedd election conduct Order to extend its scope—the existing criminal offence under section 106 of the Representation of the People Act. That would make us the first democracy in the world to prohibit lying by politicians to win elections, on which, I think, the cross-party consensus is something that we should really celebrate. I was wondering if you could say, given that the consultation on the conduct Order—the draft Order—closed yesterday, whether there will be a further consultation in relation to this new proposal. And do you intend to lay the final conduct Order by September, in line with the Gould principle that, with electoral law, changes must be introduced at least six months before the polling date in question?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. Indeed, the conduct Order is really key to our Senedd reform in terms of the way forward. And, indeed, time is crucial as we get nearer to the elections in 2026. Yes, it is the Deputy First Minister who’s responsible for this, in terms of, again, at what point the laying of the final Order, following consultation, will be forthcoming. But, as he’s here in the Chamber, I think he’s heard that point, and, hopefully, now, we can get clarity. I can’t see that there will be more consultation, but we clearly need to make sure that that final Order is laid. But I can come back, I’m sure, in terms of confirmation on that point.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I'd like to ask a little bit further about a timetable. I'm asking in Counsel General questions because the Counsel General, obviously, is responsible for the legislative programme. If the Government were to take a twin-track approach, if I can put it in those terms, and use the conduct Order in the way that I've described, but also bring forward primary legislation, particularly in relation to Members, how is the Government going to address the issue of avoiding the perception that Members are being held to different standards or, indeed, lower standards to candidates? And in terms of timing, I've heard the Government say that it depends on the complexity of the Bill, as to how long it takes, but when is the latest date by which additional primary legislation in relation to deliberate deception would need to be submitted to the Senedd? Is it September, for example? And do you intend to publish draft proposals, if not a draft Bill, before then, in relation to that additional legislation?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Adam Price. We are grateful to the Standards of Conduct Committee for considering this important issue, and we look forward to the publication of the committee's report. The Deputy First Minister will consider the committee's recommendations, after it's been published.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

You've committed as a Government already, haven't you, to disqualifying Members and candidates found guilty of deliberate deception by an independent judicial process. I was hoping to ask a lawyer, and get a lawyer's answer, but I'll ask you instead: how do you define 'an independent judicial process'? I think it's generally accepted that there are three elements to that independent judicial process: the first one is the most important one, which is that it's free from political interference, either by the Executive or the legislature; secondly, it involves a fair hearing under article 6 of the human rights convention; and, finally, it's done in open forum and not behind closed doors. If you put all those three together, Trefnydd—or Cabinet Secretary—would you agree that that does involve, essentially, decision making by an independent court, or tribunal—a devolved tribunal—and it's independent of Government but it's also independent of the Senedd as well?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for that question, and, actually, I would have to say they're all very important points. Now, I'm not the Counsel General, I'm not a lawyer, but these are really important points. I know that you will get—not just you, but, obviously, the Senedd—a considered response from the Deputy First Minster on behalf of the Welsh Government. So, again, thank you for airing those important points again this afternoon.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

3. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding how environmental laws can be enforced in the absence of an environmental governance body? OQ62334

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Janet. Environmental laws in Wales are enforced by regulators, such as Natural Resources Wales. The Welsh Government plans to introduce a Bill proposing to create a statutory environmental governance body to oversee compliance with, and implementation and application of, environmental law in Wales. The new body will not replace existing regulators.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Environmental enforcement must be taken seriously, and we've raised this so many times in the climate change committee. One of the aspects is to prevent irresponsible private ownership from causing significant harm to our environment. Pembrokeshire County Council has announced it will not proceed with legal action against the operators of Withyhedge landfill, citing financial considerations. The case was presented before a circuit judge, who acknowledged the landfill was causing a nuisance but ruled that the council had taken the incorrect legal approach by failing to first serve a notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. The challenge group Stop the Stink is now considering launching its own legal challenge against Resources Management UK Limited and the local authority. We know that NRW has issued enforcement notices against the company, but this is a major pollution scandal in Wales. It should be for an independent environmental governance body, but this interim arrangement is actually leaving Wales now very disadvantaged compared to other parts of the UK. Will you clarify whether it is an option for the Welsh Government, or the interim environmental protection assessor, to take legal action against the landfill owner, instead of private members of the public? We should not have any situation in Wales where these polluters can think they can just carry on and there’s actually no environmental governance in place. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders, and thank you for also focusing the question around one particular area of concern, which of course has been raised in this Chamber, in terms of the impact of Withyhedge, by your colleague Paul Davies. But can we just go back to where we are with this? Environmental law in Wales is enforced by regulatory bodies, and you know that the primary regulator for environmental law in Wales is Natural Resources Wales. But, also, other organisations do play a role in enforcing environmental law in Wales, including local authorities, and Pembrokeshire has taken this decision, but also Ofwat and the Health and Safety Executive. And you’re right that the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales—it’s interim—oversees the functioning of environmental law in Wales and it does provide advice to Welsh Ministers to improve environmental outcomes.

But I think it is important that we look forward to the new Bill, which we intend to introduce later this year. It will establish that new statutory environmental governance body for Wales. It will monitor devolved public authorities’ compliance with environmental law and the implementation and application of environmental law. It will advise the Welsh Ministers on environmental law matters, but won’t duplicate, change or supersede the advisory role of NRW. It will be a bespoke Welsh body, tailored to the unique environmental landscape of Wales. So, it is important that we now recognise that this is moving forward, and I’m sure it will play a really important role in terms of the issue that you focused on in your question.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

4. Will the Counsel General provide an update on what preparatory work has been undertaken with the Law Council of Wales on the possibility of the devolution of youth justice and probation? OQ62338

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Rhys ab Owen. We have been working to prepare for the possible devolution of youth justice and probation, including working with stakeholders in the legal sector. While the Law Council of Wales has not been part of these discussions to date, we would welcome a collaborative relationship to ensure that their views are included.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that response.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

The establishment of the Law Council of Wales is one of the only recommendations that has been implemented from the independent Commission on Justice in Wales. Hopefully now, with a Labour Government in Westminster, we will see the implementation of the recommendation of the devolution of youth justice and probation. But the aim of the Law Council of Wales was to raise awareness of Welsh law and to increase the co-operation between the law schools, the legal professions and the Welsh Government. However, when I tried to look for further information regarding the Law Council of Wales, I couldn’t find a website, I couldn’t find any information about meetings, or minutes of meetings, or even the membership itself. Are you satisfied that the Law Council of Wales is fulfilling its potential, and will you commit to making information regarding the council more accessible to the public? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for those follow-on questions. I’ve already mentioned the Law Council of Wales this afternoon in response to questions. It is important to recognise, and we were clear from the outset, that the law council is fully independent of Government. We did facilitate its inception, but we’re not a member of the council, as you know, and it is for the council to determine its constitution and working arrangements. Also, it’s important to recognise that Lord Lloyd-Jones was appointed as president in October 2021, alongside that executive committee of all of those legal interests that we’ve been discussing this afternoon—the Welsh law schools, the Wales and Chester Circuit of the bar, president of Welsh Tribunals et cetera, as well as, importantly for my portfolio, the national advice network for Wales. And, of course, it's the Law Society that provides the secretariat. I think, in terms of the Counsel General, she has a standing invitation to attend executive committee meetings and, indeed, to discuss issues like legal apprenticeships, which I'm sure you will be interested in as well.

Can I just say that, in terms of your question about devolution of youth justice and probation, clearly, yes, it would be good if they took an interest, but we’ve used other channels in the work we've been doing to build a vision for devolved youth justice and probation? It does include discussions with the legal sector and organisations who are represented on the law council, and we’ll continue to consult with them as our plans progress. But it is—. The law council, I’m sure, can help play a role in that.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

5. Will the Counsel General provide an update on the reform of Welsh tribunals? OQ62337

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for your question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

We continue to work on the development of the legislation required to take forward our ambitions to create a modern and coherent devolved tribunal system focused on meeting the needs of tribunal users. The timing of the legislation to deliver these reforms will be announced in due course.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Cabinet Secretary. In November I asked the Counsel General for an update on the reform of Welsh tribunals, and I had a similar reply. She said:

'The timing of legislation associated with the programme will be announced in due course.'

So, that hasn't changed since November. And she hoped that she and the First Minister would be able to

'bring a legislative statement forward early'

in what was then the next calendar year, so this year now. We are now well into the second month of that calendar year, and we still have uncertainty with regard to the timetabling of the Bill. There is a clear case to reform Welsh tribunals. It is important that the justice areas already devolved are run well, and that hasn't been the case with regard to Welsh tribunals to date. If delayed until the next Senedd, there is no guarantee at all that there will be reform of Welsh tribunals, and a lot of work has gone into this from the Law Commission and also from Welsh Government and other stakeholders. Will you, please, commit—I was going to ask the Counsel General with her delivery hat on also—that reform will be passed within this Senedd? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr. I’m sure I will be just repeating what has been said before by the Counsel General that we did—. It is important again to remind colleagues that we welcomed the recommendations from the Commission on Justice in Wales and the Law Commission for the reform of devolved tribunals in Wales. They identified the need for reform of the current tribunal system and they’ve provided a clear evidence base direction of travel for us to take. It’s also about how we are not just addressing shortcomings in the current situation and structures in place, but futureproofing the system by proposing that unified and flexible tribunal structure capable of absorbing new jurisdictions with little disruption.

You will be pleased to hear that the First Minister and the Counsel General recently met with both the president of Welsh Tribunals and the Lady Chief Justice earlier this month, and they discussed the importance of the reform agenda. So, that is news for you, I’m sure, asking that question. We look forward to continued dialogue and, in terms of when a Bill could be introduced, it is a matter for the First Minister’s annual statement on the legislative programme.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

6. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the efficiency of the legislative consent regime? OQ62342

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. We consider that there may be situations in which it is in the best interests of Wales for provisions that would be within the Senedd’s legislative competence to be included in UK Parliament Bills. An efficient legislative consent regime is vital to support the Senedd’s scrutiny in those situations.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response. Well, it appears to me that the legislative consent regime is entirely ineffective. Legislative consent motions come before us here, they have a significant impact on Wesh law and they have a direct impact on the lives of the people of Wales, but there is no public consultation, there is no real time permitted to scrutinise the LCMs thoroughly, and there is no scope, therefore, for the Welsh voice to be heard properly.

So, it appears that this proves the weakness of the devolution settlement, that we are looking to Westminster to legislate on our behalf, and it also shows a shortage of capacity in the Government and the Senedd. And in addition to that, it makes the process of legislating more bureaucratic and drags the process out longer than necessary. Wouldn't it be better to devolve more powers to Wales in order to avoid these complexities and failings, and does the Government have that ambition?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, diolch yn fawr, Mabon. It's really important that we recognise that we must ensure that this legislature gets the opportunity to scrutinise UK legislation, which engages the Sewel convention and requires the Senedd's consent through the LCM process. And this is a matter where we have to adhere to Senedd Standing Orders governing the legislative consent process here in Wales. Indeed, we have been able to lay a legislative consent memorandum within the two-week timescale in the majority of cases in this UK parliamentary session, but we do appreciate the difficulties faced by committees in scrutinising legislation that's been timetabled in a different legislature. We continue to remind the UK Government of this and the importance of the LCM process as regards parliamentary timetabling here.

And I think, just to reflect on the bigger picture in terms of the principle of this, recommending that the Senedd consents to provisions in UK Bills doesn't equate to the Welsh Government needing the support of a different Government or different Parliament to deliver our own legislative objectives; it can enable us, though, to deliver for the people of Wales and make the best use of the resource and opportunities available. And it is appropriate, therefore, that we do take decisions and make recommendations to the Senedd when we consider that it would be sensible and advantageous for Wales to do so. But it's very much open for Members and committees to present their own positions, and of course that is forthcoming through the legislative consent process.

So, this is something where we do value cross-party engagement in this. We're willing to explore any technical concerns about the operation of the consent process, including through any business committee proposals, and recognise that, although there have been improvements in engagement with the UK Government, earlier sharing of drafting, for example, we do need to ensure that we work very closely to support our numerous Senedd committees, who do need to engage on those memoranda for further detail.

It's useful to see that we have been able to give consent, as of 13 February of this year, to a number of those consent motions: passenger railway services, the Great British Energy Bill, the Product Regulation and Metrology Bill, the Renters' Rights Bill, the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. And, of course, we have many more in drafting, as you know.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

7. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the potential impact on Wales of the Westminster Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill? OQ62341

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. This Bill falls to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care’s area of responsibility. Once the Bill passes the relevant stages in Parliament it will be assessed for the purposes of Standing Order 29. I am assured that officials are working to understand the potential implications for Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thanks for that response. Well, clause 32, for instance, of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill will enable Westminster's Secretary of State for health to intervene directly on health provisions in Wales. Now, this is just one example of how this proposed Bill will directly impact on decisions that are devolved, yet the Welsh chief medical officer hasn't attended any hearings to give evidence, neither have the various commissioners nor Welsh Government Ministers attended either. So, not only do we have an overreach—a power grab, if you like—but also Wales's voice is muted. Now, Professor Emyr Lewis, in his evidence, suggested that Wales should have different commencement provisions to those in England. So, will your Government insist that that Bill gives Welsh Ministers the same power as English Ministers with regard to this Bill, and will you look at Emyr Lewis's proposals of providing different commencement provisions for Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for your question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

If the Bill becomes law, it will, as I said, have significant implications for Wales. It is a complex issue with many operational, moral, legal and constitutional considerations. The Bill is currently undergoing scrutiny; as you say, over 300 amendments have been tabled to the Bill. It will be debated further by the Houses of Commons and Lords later in the year, and the final version will require the approval of both before it becomes law. And we will assess the Bill in accordance with Standing Order 29 once it passes the relevant Stages in Parliament. As a private Members' Bill, the timing for any required legislative consent motion is generally later than is required in relation to UK Government Bills. I can assure you again that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is aware of this and, obviously, taking—. We are observing the scrutiny at this point in time in terms of the committee scrutiny.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister and Trefnydd for answering those questions.

3. Business Statement and Announcement

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 3 will be next, the business statement and announcement, and the Trefnydd once again will be taking this item. So, the statement by the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are three changes to this week's business. On today's agenda, there is an oral statement on animal health and welfare. The oral statement on UEFA Women's Euro 2025 will be issued as a written statement. The Business Committee has agreed to postpone the debate by the Children, Young People and Education Committee on children on the margins. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding the delay of the new made-for-Wales history GCSE course. As you're aware, the new history GCSE course was due to begin in September this year, but now it won't be rolled out until 2026 in order to give teachers more time to plan. Now, I've been contacted by constituents who have concerns about the English GCSE course, who believe that the same logic applied to the history course should also be used for the English GCSE course. Naturally, it's crucial that teachers are able to properly prepare for all courses that they are teaching, and it's important that the Welsh Government actually hears their concerns. Therefore, given the seriousness of the concerns raised and the potential impact this could have on learners, I'd be grateful if the Welsh Government could issue a statement urgently addressing the situation, and confirming what assessment has been done of the ability of teachers to suitably plan for these courses.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Paul Davies, for that question. It is, of course, a question for the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and I would suggest you take the opportunity to raise that with Lynne Neagle in her oral Senedd questions. But, of course, it's now on the record and she will be prepared for the question and, indeed, as you said, clarification in terms of the made-for-Wales GCSE course, and clarification, of course, for your constituents, and she would want to respond to it.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Trefnydd, I'd like to say that I'm very disappointed that the statement that was supposed to be this afternoon on the UEFA Women's Euro 2025 is now going to be issued as a written statement, rather than an oral statement. I understand the reasons why the Minister can't be here, but I don't understand why, let's say, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning couldn't lead on this. We hardly ever have opportunities to discuss culture or sport in this Chamber. There was a statement last week that was changed and issued as a written statement too.

So, can I ask whether we can have an opportunity to discuss these issues on the floor of the Senedd and to give due attention to culture and sport alike? May I also ask whether there is an update from Government, because I did ask some weeks ago about an oral statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on the impact of the UK Government's pensions reforms on Wales? Can you give us an update on that today, please?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. Yes, I'm grateful that you do acknowledge the personal circumstances of the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, and it was his wish to be able to have given an oral statement. It is really important that we recognise the great opportunities and the great achievements through UEFA Women's Euro 2025. We will look for an opportunity to enable us—and I'm sure that the Minister will want to do it himself; he's issuing a written statement—to air this. And, indeed, in terms of the written statement from last week, we will look for an opportunity to ensure that this can be discussed in the Senedd.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Mike Hedges.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

And—. Yes. Can I say—? There's a second question, which was actually for the Cabinet Secretary for finance, which I know we are following up. It's a very busy time in terms of our budget-making process.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Now Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for keeping me on my toes. I would like to ask for two Government statements, the first a statement on tax devolution. This should outline the effects of the current devolved taxes on the Welsh block grant and how it's been reduced to take into account the taxes raised in Wales. You should also discuss the potential for further tax devolution, including the Crown Estate and how much the block grant will be reduced, based upon what happened when it was devolved to Scotland.

I would also like to ask for a statement on the work of trading standards. As someone who's always been an advocate of the effectiveness of trading standards, I was surprised and disappointed when I had a personal complaint regarding having being sold something that was unsuitable, because the company had measured incorrectly. Carmarthenshire trading standards have failed to reply to three e-mails and one letter. What does the Government expect trading standards to do when they receive a complaint?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges, for those questions. Can I just start with the issue about devolved taxes block grant adjustments? Well, of course, the fiscal framework arrangements for devolved taxes and associated block grant adjustments continue to operate in a satisfactory way. The Welsh rates of income tax have made a total net positive budgetary contribution of £217 million over the outturn years between 2020-21 and 2022-23. Over the years to 2025-26, the net budgetary contribution from the Welsh rates of income tax is forecast to increase to over £600 million, and, combined with the other devolved taxes, the overall net contribution is £1.1 billion. All devolved taxes are expected to continue to make a positive contribution to the Welsh Government's budget over the remaining years of the decade.

Now, you have mentioned the Crown Estate as well as trading standards, so I'll just say, on the Crown Estate, that we are going to table a debate in Government time on the Crown Estate. Our programme for government includes a commitment to pursue devolution of powers needed to help reach net zero, including management of the Crown Estate in Wales.

When we come to trading standards, of course you know that matters relating to trading standards are reserved, coming under the UK Government. But local authorities across the UK, including Wales, are responsible for enforcing consumer protection legislation relating to specific policy areas, and any complaint—and you obviously have one on behalf of a constituent—relating to an area, for example, where a business has broken the law or acted unfairly should be made through the relevant authority's complaints procedures.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for finance in relation to why he thinks that the local government settlements in Wales, and the formula that is used to produce those settlements, is fair? One thing that we know is that, unfortunately, there are certain local authorities who seem to constantly lose out as a result of the local government funding formula. One of those includes Conway, part of which I represent in my Clwyd West seat. Local residents in Conway are facing a council tax increase of almost 10 per cent again this year, the third such increase in three years, which is driving people nuts, because they see these huge increases in council tax whilst local services are being cut. Local people want a greater say in the way that their money is spent, and I think what we need to understand is why the Government feels that this is fair and why the Government is continuing to resist giving the opportunity for local people to have a say via local council tax referenda.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, this is entirely a question, of course, for the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and I'm very glad that he's sitting here—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm glad he's here to hear it.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

—beside me, because I think it is a question that not only you can put to him in terms of his oral Senedd questions, but indeed it is an important question for our forthcoming debate on the draft budget and the local government revenue settlement. But I think also I'd like to make the point that was made earlier on, as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, which is that we're working very closely with the Cabinet Secretary for finance. We seek to have one of the most—well, the most—favourable council tax reduction scheme system arrangements in Wales, with over 200,000 people not paying any council tax at all. And I draw your attention, Darren Millar, which I'm sure your—. I think, actually, Conwy might be involved; it is definitely involved in our Welsh benefits charter, where we are now finding ways in which we can streamline applications for the council tax reduction scheme, free school meals and the school essentials grant so that people who need this—and it's about tackling poverty and raising income in our areas through entitlements—can make one application and open one door to all those three benefits.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

As we know, Cabinet Secretary, in our drive towards net zero, all options need to be on the table when it comes to low-carbon energy generation and storage, but we also know, of course, that the national grid is currently overwhelmed with applications for new developments, many of them from battery storage facilities. Now, one of the biggest battery storage facilities of its kind, with an output the equivalent of half the current output of Wales's onshore and offshore wind generation capacity is being proposed in Gwyddelwern, in Denbighshire, in my region. Now, the 1 GW scheme will house 1,000 batteries in around 640 shipping containers, effectively, on a 70 acre greenfield site. Now, as with any new technology, of course, there are teething issues, and battery storage is no different. A recent fire in a similar facility in California had such an impact on the local area that the state of California is in the process of implementing an emergency Bill to prohibit battery storage facilities within 1 km of any residential property, and the whole of Gwyddelwern village is within 1 km of this proposed scheme. So, can we have a statement from the relevant Cabinet Secretary explaining what measures the Welsh Government is taking to make sure that the safety of those being impacted by this development is taken seriously, and maybe the Government might be minded to consider what's happening in California?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Llyr Gruffydd. Of course, our vision, as you know—which I'm sure you do share—is to decarbonise in a way that generates greater benefits than the energy system we have today, and it is through that generation of green jobs and economic growth in our communities and sustainable regeneration, use of our renewables. Of course, not all projects—and you've mentioned one—come forward. Often there are issues around viability and potential consenting being refused, but we monitor potential opportunities in Wales to ensure we generate benefits to local communities across Wales, and any electricity generated will need to be transported to users whatever the technology, so we do need that mix of technologies, and I know that you, as Chair of the climate change committee, would want to ensure that we do have a resilient and flexible system that meets and reacts to users' needs.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. Could I ask you to make a statement, please, on the UK Government's decision to strip refugees arriving via small boats of their right to British citizenship? This policy creates a two-tier system, locking out people who work, pay taxes and build their lives here, but, simply because of how they arrived, cannot claim citizenship. It ignores the desperate circumstances that force people to take perilous journeys and blatantly undermines Britain's moral and legal commitments. For many, citizenship is about hope and belonging. Slamming the door on refugees in this way is not just unjust, it fuels division, emboldens the far right and feeds a toxic narrative of fear and exclusion. Given Wales’s proud status as a nation of sanctuary, I would like to hear, please, from you, what steps you will be taking to shield refugees here in Wales from the harmful consequences of this policy.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Jane Dodds. Of course, you will know what our position is in Wales. I gave a nation of sanctuary statement last week, and we are very proud of any sanctuary seekers and their host communities when anyone takes the decision to seek and gain UK citizenship. And we do believe seeking asylum—I'm speaking as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice in the Welsh Government—is a right for those fleeing from persecutions.

Of course, decisions around the status of those migrating to the UK are not devolved, are a matter for the UK Government. But I would say that we believe that those provided with international protection, including refugees, are welcome contributors to Welsh communities, and we're very committed to doing everything we can to ensure the integration of arrivals within Welsh communities. And I do think, as I've said on so many occasions, we do need safe and legal routes to the UK and to becoming a UK citizen.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Could I ask for two statements today? I'd firstly like to ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health, giving us an update on the roll-out of the infected blood compensation scheme in Wales. I really welcome the £11.8 billion announcement in the budget last year by the UK Government, and the fact that now some people have started to receive compensation, but we're also hearing of unacceptable delays. I've spoken with Haemophilia Wales, who've also raised further concerns about the scheme, saying that the new infected blood compensation scheme is not being run as an independent arm's-length body, as was recommended, that there's been no engagement or input from expert haemophilia clinicians, and that there's been no meaningful engagement with community representatives. And also there's quite a lot of difficulty for people to get information, who've been infected or affected by contaminated blood. So, I was wondering if we could have a statement and update from the Secretary of State for health.

And secondly, I'd like to ask for a statement on the mutual investment model. Last week, we heard a call in England for the English NHS to look at the mutual investment model to expand investment in the development of health infrastructure. And, of course, the Velindre Cancer Centre in my constituency of Cardiff North is being built as a MIM. So, it would be a very useful to have an update on these developments. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Julie Morgan, for your questions. It is important to recognise that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and counterparts across UK are working with the Minister for the Cabinet Office in the UK Government to ensure that the Infected Blood Compensation Authority is set up as quickly as possible and is tailored to meet the needs of those infected and affected by this scandal. But it is important to have feedback of concerns in terms of how decisions are being made and the timeliness of that, but remembering that the Infected Blood Compensation Authority is an independent arm's-length body with operational independence from the Government. It has that role to deliver the compensation scheme to the victims of the scandal who've waited so long for justice, and the UK Government Cabinet Office's involvement in the development of that scheme is necessary, as the Government has stewardship over the money allocated for the scheme. It is important that the community, representatives from the community and representatives are engaged. They have, I understand, attended events organised by the Cabinet Office. And indeed, the Minister for the Cabinet Office has committed to engaging with the infected blood community, most recently, I believe, meeting key representatives of the community in Wales. On 30 January, they met, I understand, with the chair of Haemophilia Wales.

But it is important that there has been feedback from the infected blood community, and there have been some changes, for example, to the eligibility of siblings under the scheme, but also it is important that the website that is available for information—'Compensation for someone who is infected: Overview'—is available to all those affected, and that there are plans laid out by the Infected Blood Compensation Authority to open the compensation service in stages, to make sure it's effective and secure for all those claiming. But there is quite a lot here that I think we can ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to update us on, I think, in a statement on progress, because it is so important. And it's thanks to your continued engagement and campaigning impact on the way things have developed that we do make this actually deliver the promises that have been made. So, I thank you for that question, and will discuss it with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care.

Yes, interestingly, on the mutual investment model, your second question, which was referred to last week, I think, by the chief executive of NHS England, suggesting that this is something that we could, and the NHS Confederation—. This model that we've developed in Wales could be used in England. It has allowed us to invest in over £1 billion of additional public infrastructure that wouldn't have been possible due to our limited borrowing powers and our capital funding settlement. And what is so important—. I remember coming to a meeting with you at Velindre many, many years ago, when I was finance Minister, to welcome the investment in our health infrastructure through the new Velindre Cancer Centre, at which you were able to have that great event last week, with the Cabinet Secretary, to see the developments. It is a funding option. It's available to the Welsh Government to finance public infrastructure. And it is a Government policy that, of course, we always use sources of publicly available capital funding, the least expensive forms of capital, before we turn to potentially more expensive forms of investment. And of course, we now have that opportunity at long last with the draft budget and the capital allocation that is in the draft budget as a result of that £1.5 billion uplift in the budget from the UK Government for next year.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Trefnydd, it is now evident that we are in a pre-war era, and therefore must act accordingly. If there was any doubt, then the Prime Minister's recent comments, suggesting that British armed forces could be deployed to maintain peace in Ukraine should a negotiated settlement be reached, should serve as a wake-up call. Crucially, any such negotiations must include Ukraine. To effectively counter current threats, UK defence spending must be at least 2.5 per cent of gross domestic product, if not more.

Wales is home to excellent military assets, including Castlemartin firing range, Cawdor barracks in Brawdy, and Brecon barracks, to name but a few, and Welsh men and women make a proud and invaluable contribution to our armed forces, yet defence spending in Wales remains disproportionately lower than elsewhere. So, in light of escalating international tensions, I would welcome a statement from the First Minister on how Wales can secure additional defence investment to strengthen our military infrastructure and support our service personnel.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question. This is a serious issue that you've raised today, and I thank you for that, Sam Kurtz. Of course, any decision—. The news is changing, perhaps day by day, moment by moment, but any decision, of course, to deploy UK armed forces is a matter for the UK Government, and we heard that the Prime Minister has indicated he is ready and willing to consider putting UK troops on the ground in Ukraine as part of a peace deal.

Yes, we can look at the ways in which many people from Wales serve in the armed forces—regulars, reserves, across the army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. Our thoughts are with those who are deployed on operations at this time. Operational deployment is a part of service life, and it particularly hits families hard who live, work and learn in Wales whilst loved ones are overseas. But it is important we have our armed forces covenant here in Wales to uphold the principles of how we work with those who serve in the armed forces.

But can I just finally say that our thoughts today are with the people of Ukraine, especially those who are with us in Wales and for whom recent events will be particularly, particularly difficult? I also wish both Mick Antoniw and Alun Davies well as they are going to Ukraine tomorrow, and I think that across the Chamber, we wish them well. I think it's their eighth mission from this Senedd on behalf of the people of Wales who engage, and trade unions and many other parts of civic society engage and support those missions, but led by Mick Antoniw and Alun Davies.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Trefnydd, many of us will have watched the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme on S4C last night, which discussed the failure to respond to the concerns of the deputy head of Ysgol Dyffryn Aman at the time in terms of security at the school, particularly the guidance on excluding pupils and other issues as well, and that was just a few months before the terrible attack on the staff and pupils at the school last April. Indeed, he wrote seven times to the Welsh Government to ask for an explanation—ironically, the last e-mail was sent on the morning of the terrible event. His contribution and the powerful words of one of the members of staff who was stabbed, on the steps of the court at the end of the case, emphasised the need to take urgent action on this issue.

Could I ask, therefore, whether the Government could provide a statement giving us an update on the actions that they are taking to reform and strengthen the guidance for ensuring the safety of staff and pupils in schools, as well as a timetable on when exactly the behavioural summit will be held, and give us an assurance that that will happen urgently?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, and thank you for raising this in the context of our clear position in Wales as a Welsh Government that any form of violence or abuse against staff or pupils in our schools is completely unacceptable. Schools should be safe spaces for learners and staff. Education settings in Wales have a legal duty to provide a safe learning environment and are required to have a robust behaviour policy in place. And poor behaviour should be addressed through the consistent implementation of appropriate behavioural policies, taking steps to understand the root causes, often multiple and complex underlying reasons why learners behave poorly, but with appropriate support, these can be addressed. It is important that our exclusion from schools and pupil referral units guidance sets out the process schools must follow, for example, when excluding a pupil, and our behaviour toolkit will be published in the spring.

We've asked Estyn to undertake a thematic review of behaviour in secondary schools, and as I'm sure you're aware and know, the education Secretary is holding a behaviour summit later this year. And clearly, it is about lessons to be learned from the appalling stabbing at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman. And also, I know the education Secretary has clarified the position in terms of guidance, which was requested by the school, but I understand it was relating to other issues—you made that reference to that—that were concerning the school at the time, for example, searching pupils for vapes and not for weapons. We've clarified that position, but the important thing is to ensure that we do hold that behaviour summit later this year and ensure that the behaviour toolkit is fully understood and implemented, and that Estyn does undertake that thematic review.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Trefnydd, can I request a statement from either the education or transport Secretaries on travel provision for further education learners in the Gwent region? I recently visited Coleg Gwent's site in Usk, where I met with the new principal for a tour around the excellent facilities—worth a visit—and a discussion on the issues affecting the college. One of the issues that came up during my visit was transport and the challenges that learners have in getting to their courses due to poor access to public transport and inconsistent levels of support for them from the different local authorities. It can take an unacceptably long time for learners to get to their campus, certainly Usk campus, to pursue their learning. I would therefore welcome a statement from the appropriate Cabinet Secretary outlining what further support can be given to ensure that learners get appropriate access to various colleges across Wales, certainly Coleg Gwent, as I believe this is a common issue right across Wales, and we need to do something if we want to help learners reach their full potential in life.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Peter Fox. This is very much a cross-Government issue in terms of the responsibilities of both the education and transport Cabinet Secretaries, and, indeed, learner travel is on the Senedd agenda in terms of business, but I know that they will want to, of course, reflect on your points this afternoon.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We have reached the conclusion of our time allocation, but I have four Members who wish to speak. If those Members keep to the time limit and the Trefnydd, who I'm sure will also keep to the time limits, we'll get you all in this afternoon before the recess. Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for finance on what measures the Welsh Government are planning on implementing to save pubs in Wales. According to the British Beer and Pub Association, 19 pubs closed in Wales last year. They're an integral part of our communities, and we know that the cut to business rate relief has damaged our pubs, and, of course, the rises in national insurance are also going to hit hard. So, a statement on how the Government plans to stop this concerning rate of pub closures would be very welcome.

And, if I may, can I also ask for another statement? Monmouthshire County Council has decided that they won't be reverting any roads from 20 mph to 30 mph following their review, despite residents flagging 143 roads that they felt should return to 30 mph, with nearly 1,500 local people responding to the consultation. In Wrexham, more than 50 roads are switching back to 30 mph, following their review. It seems that while some councils are facilitating changes, others are ignoring their residents, so can we have a statement to see how this is being implemented Wales-wide, on this so-called listening exercise and what it has meant across Wales? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Laura Anne Jones. Well, yes, it is sad that there are pub closures. It's customer choice that pubs are closed, although there are some really good examples of communities taking over and running pubs as well, which is also important to recognise. Also, to say, just in terms of the buildings where, perhaps, pubs are closing, I think it's great in my constituency to see how pubs have been converted and used and bought by social landlords, and are becoming brilliant housing provisions for people in housing need. But the question of the pub closures, I think, is something that all sectors have to be engaged with.

On your point about Monmouthshire council and the fact that all local authorities, like Monmouthshire, are now in the process of reviewing roads, with the final decisions for the local authorities to take, of course, we continue to support local authorities across Wales in the process. But let's just remind ourselves that the principal objective of the policy is to save lives and reduce casualties, and the latest statistics showed that there were around 100 fewer people killed or seriously injured on 20 mph and 30 mph roads combined in the 12 months following the introduction of the 20 mph default speed limit, compared with the same period the year before. That is such an important update on the impact of our policy for 20 mph, and let's let the local authorities engage in that process of review as we've asked them to do.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I'd like a statement, please, on what the Welsh Government is going to do about the cost of NHI—national insurance, I should say—to businesses. I met with some care home owners on Friday, and they were just appalled that the local authority care home will have that money reimbursed, but privately run care homes now will have such additional costs. A 1.2 per cent rise in employer national insurance and a cut to the secondary threshold to £5,000 alongside a 5 per cent increase in the real living wage are going to cripple many of our private care homes. We have lost more beds in care homes in Wales than across the whole UK over the past few years, and we just haven’t got the provision. Many beds now—. I hate the phrase ‘bedblocking’, but we’re finding patients in beds now when they’re medically fit, could go home and be helped in the social care sector, or back to their care home or nursing home. I’m afraid we’re going to see more care homes and nursing homes closed as a result of your Government’s measures.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet, I did ask for everyone to be succinct, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, okay.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

So, how are you going to address this, and will you stand up for those running our care homes, to ensure that we don’t lose more beds in the sector? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch. I have to say, and I hope you would agree, that when the Welsh Labour Government secured the money for the real living wage for our social care workforce, it actually helped both the recruitment and retention of our social care workforce. And I know the independent sector recognises that as well.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Please can I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health and well-being? I recently met with a community first responder from the Welsh ambulance service based within the Aneurin Bevan health board. For context, these volunteers are often sent to amber ambulance calls to assist ahead of paramedics’ arrival. This invaluable service that these CFR teams provide often goes unrecognised, but it’s vital to keep an already overstretched service functioning, and I pay tribute to their efforts. The CFR raised several concerns with me, which I will bring to the Cabinet Secretary when I have a chance. However, one issue that really shocked me to my core was the sheer difficulty these CFRs face in getting their oxygen bottles restocked. While CFRs are often based in fire stations, and are linked to the Welsh ambulance services trust, which covers the whole of Wales, the consumable stocks they use, such as oxygen and bandages, are supplied by local health boards. This often leads to supplies being sent to the wrong site, making it very, very difficult for these volunteer responders to have a full kit of equipment during their shifts. So, can the Cabinet Secretary consider giving a statement on how barriers can be removed to ensure that vital medical kit is supplied and located at the most convenient site for use, whenever it is needed, in south-east Wales and all other corners of Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for that really important question, Natasha Asghar, because I’m a great supporter of first responders, certainly, in my constituency and many others. And, of course, their close relationship with the Wales ambulance services trust is crucial to their work. And they are not only often the first response—as they wish to be—and support for someone waiting, perhaps, for further engagement from paramedics, or from the ambulance service, but they’re also volunteers.

So, I’m sure you’ve got a full question there to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care in his next Senedd oral question session.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’d like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on data collection in the Welsh NHS, because I’ve discovered recently, in a response to a written question, that the Welsh Government, or the Welsh NHS, don’t store data on the HPV vaccine, which reduces cervical cancer for women. So, I’m looking for a statement as to why that’s the case 26 years post devolution on an issue so pertinent in women’s health. I find it striking that the Welsh Government don’t have any data on this. So, can I please have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health as to why this is the case? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you. You’ve put your question on record today, and I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will respond to a question to him at his next session of OQs. Of course, you can write to him as well, but, of course, data collection is crucial for understanding the needs in our health service.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Trefnydd.

4. Statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: Animal health and welfare

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on animal health and welfare. I call on the Deputy First Minister, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to update Members on our animal health and welfare work. Our ambition is for Wales to have healthy animals that have a good quality of life.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

It is my goal for Wales to be recognised for its exemplary standards of animal health and welfare. In turn, this supports a thriving rural economy, the environment, and it helps protect public health. Over this Government term, we are doing an incredible amount of work to make this happen. Our approach is always about bringing people together, listening, working in partnership, and we have delivered.

A top priority is keeping animal disease out of Wales. We have maintained a state of preparedness, and we continue to respond to animal disease threats and outbreaks as they occur. To protect against the threat of animal disease, we have worked with the UK and the Scottish and the Northern Ireland Governments on our approach to safety and to security controls at the borders of Great Britain. Wales has earned, indeed, international recognition for our groundbreaking measures to control the global threat of antibiotic resistance in animals.

Our approach to tackling bovine TB is that we must work in partnership, particularly with farmers and with vets, if we are to reach our shared goal of a TB-free Wales. Last year, we established TB governance arrangements, which further embed partnership working and provides expert and strategic advice. I'm very much looking forward to receiving further advice from the technical advisory group and the TB programme board as they develop their work. We have a busy time ahead.

On animal welfare, our animal welfare plan for Wales sets out how we will deliver our priorities. We have strengthened enforcement and successfully delivered training across Wales though the Animal Licensing Wales project. This project has delivered a website for local authorities, for breeders and for the public. It has supported investigations into unlicensed dog breeding and has been recognised with a prestigious RSPCA PawPrints special recognition award.

We supported the ban on live animal exports for slaughter, which received Royal Assent last May. This year, we are working with the UK Government on two private Member's Bills relating to livestock attacks and pet imports, recognising their importance. And we have delivered the programme for government commitment to legislate for the mandatory use of CCTV in all slaughterhouses in Wales.

I remain committed to the development of a national model for the regulation of animal welfare. We consulted on the licensing of animal welfare establishments last year, and I published the summary of responses in December. This will help us to set our priorities for further welfare improvements. We are also taking action on responsible dog breeding and ownership. I attended the summit in October, and I heard first hand from the broad range of delivery partners and stakeholders about some of the truly innovative projects and the real progress being made.

We have, indeed, achieved a great deal, but the scale of challenges to animal health and welfare continues to rise. The threat of livestock disease outbreaks is ever present. For example, we are actively working to keep our flocks and our herds safe from bluetongue and avian influenza, as well as disease threats from other parts of the world, like foot and mouth. So, we must remain vigilant and maintain the highest standards of hygiene, biosecurity and safe sourcing of animals to keep disease out. This is also why I see animal health and welfare measures as a cornerstone of the sustainable farming scheme. Over the coming months, we will continue to refine the detail as part of the wider work on this scheme.

Regarding the development of the wider national model for the regulation of animal welfare, I am looking forward to sharing our next steps in full in the spring. But one animal welfare issue included in that consultation is the racing of dogs, notably greyhounds. This is something the Government has been asked to consider for quite some time. I’m pleased to share with the Senedd today that I have seen the strength of feeling on this, and I have listened. The matter has been discussed and debated in the Senedd, and, as demonstrated only last week, has clear cross-party support. Our consultation on a national model for animal welfare, which included questions relating to greyhounds, received over 1,100 responses. In that consultation, the question asking for evidence and views on a phased ban found almost two thirds of respondents were in favour of such a ban. A petition to ban greyhound racing in Wales received over 35,000 signatures. This sits alongside campaign work by the Cut the Chase coalition, which includes Blue Cross, Dogs Trust, Greyhound Rescue Wales, Hope Rescue and the RSPCA. We also note what is happening in other countries across the world that are taking steps to ban this activity. As a result, Dirprwy Lywydd, I believe that now is the right time to move to ban greyhound racing in Wales. We are proud to be the first nation in the UK to do this. I want a ban to come into force as soon as is practicably possible. There will be more work to do in ensuring the dogs, their owners and those involved in the industry around the racetrack can wind down from this activity while still protecting the welfare of dogs currently within the industry, the local community and the local economy. That is why our next step will be to set up an implementation group. The group will engage with stakeholders, learn from other countries’ approaches, such as New Zealand, where the Government are bringing forward a Bill to end greyhound racing, and advise this Government on how a ban will come into force, the legislative approach, and when it will be delivered.

A range of Members from right across this Siambr have brought forward their views regarding greyhound racing. This cross-party support has been considered, and I am grateful for their advice on this matter. I have taken this and the views of the public and the campaign groups and the responses to the recent consultation into account in coming to this decision.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

As I said at the start of my statement, I want Wales to be an exemplar for the highest standards of animal health and welfare. Through working together with the industry, our stakeholders and individual animal owners, we will continue to deliver on this goal. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I have to say—and I won’t normally say these sorts of things in the Chamber—I was very disappointed that we only got to see this statement about 10 minutes ago, which is poor form, I think, but I’m sure there must be a reason why that was. However, much of what is in this statement we clearly agree with. The desire for exemplary standards of animal health and welfare is something we must always strive for, and I know you’re passionate about it, as I am, and we will continue to do that.

I agree with the priority of keeping diseases out of Wales. That is so fundamental at the moment, with the fear of foot and mouth, avian flu on our borders, bluetongue—okay, bluetongue’s quiet at the moment because the ticks are down at the moment, but, when it comes back, it’s a real fear for us all—and, of course, TB is a massive issue for all of us. And the working in partnership across borders, as well as what we’re doing with farmers, like in the Pembrokeshire project, are really important to shape an outcome that can stop this terrible disease that is ending up requiring us to kill over 10,000 cows and cattle a year. So, we need to learn from that and hope we find a way forward, and I hope the technical advisory group and the programme board advise you well in doing that.

Animal licensing arrangements are really important. One area that may be of interest, which I was going to raise at another point in the Chamber but it’s pertinent today is, I that I was at Coleg Gwent recently, and I was looking at their small animals department, which ranges from tarantulas to large snakes to lots of different animals, where students learn about them, but there is no licensing requirement for them at all. And they were very concerned, because they thought there should be, because there is something similar in England. Yet, small collections of animals, private collections, have no regulation on them unless they’re charging and people can see them and then they have a sort of zoo status, or something. But there’s clearly a gap there that we need to fill, around animal licensing of those collections of animals.

The budget highlights for border control around £4 million of revenue this year. I know there’s a fairly considerable lump sum of capital. I’m not sure how that will be deployed on border security, but it is going to be fundamentally more than anything—. I hear about the animal and welfare framework and the importance of that, but currently there’s £1.9 million in the budget to support that. So, I suppose, Cabinet Secretary, I really want to understand, from this side of your statement, is there enough money for our borders, for our welfare framework, to make sure that we can keep our borders safe? There are people in the farming community who have grave concerns that we might not have the capacity, the resilience, to maintain our vigilance to keep these diseases out of our country, because of the devastating effect they can have.

I've also met with the RSPCA, and I was pleased to meet with the Cut the Chase coalition—and I met some of the dogs recently outside—and I understand the challenges and the concerns and the overwhelming evidence that they have shown. Our group, as you know, has got cross-party support, but there is a free position on this, if people have different views as well. And I'm certainly going to go and visit the race track, as I have, in fairness, to take a balanced perspective; I will be visiting them as well. But I think the evidence is very, very powerful. And I recognise all of the good work that is going on around dog breeding and putting all of our animals at the forefront of our decision making to make sure that we do the very best by them, because if we don't, who will?

So, Cabinet Secretary, I suppose my biggest question to you is: have we got enough resilience to make sure that our agricultural system here in Wales will remain out of threat? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Peter, thank you very much. Let me just first begin by apologising for any delay. Sometimes it happens; there are unavoidable things behind the scenes. We always try, as you know, to give as much notice as we can. It just so happened, today, one way or the other, it was slightly delayed, but my apologies.

But thank you for the points—some really important points within that. One is that matter of working across borders on issues like bluetongue, foot and mouth, avian influenza, not only with the CVOs and working with the Animal and Plant Health Agency across the UK, but also working with colleagues internationally, so we keep these diseases out as much as we can, or where they have gained a footing we strive to keep them out of Wales as much as we can. And that is partly to do with biosecurity measures in some of these areas as well, and safe sourcing of stock and cattle in some respects. So, we all have a responsibility collectively. But it brings me directly to the point you made as well about how this ties into borders as well. Because we have to make sure—. The lesson of the past is we have to make sure that our borders are safe as well. And we do have a different situation in the post-EU landscape and the EU withdrawal and the Windsor framework now in place and so on. Bu even having said that, we need to make sure that all our border, all our entry points around the UK, all have good controls on, because that is how we keep diseases out, both in terms of biosecurity, but also phytosanitary issues as well. So, we’ll work with the UK Government on that, we’ll work with APHA on that. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language firmly knows, as I’m regularly in with him stressing the importance of keeping the necessary quantum of funding into this space. Actually, it’s a space that you never notice until something goes wrong. So, we will keep that, and the other person who keeps me live to this, of course, is my chief veterinary officer as well, who will regularly attend to that.

Can I just also note you mentioned about Coleg Gwent and others? I mentioned in my opening remarks that I’m looking forward to bringing forward the fuller response to the consultation we did on the licensing regime. I've been able and pleased to make the announcement today in terms of greyhound racing and the way forward, but on the wider piece, I’ll bring that forward. And, of course, we will look at what responses we had then to smaller facilities that deal with animals, as well as the larger ones. That is a very pertinent point.

And just finally, I just want to welcome what, I think, was his support for the compelling cross-party case and the campaigns and the growing evidence internationally that have led other countries now to move to a ban on greyhound racing. And I thank you for that.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Can I welcome your statement today, Cabinet Secretary, particularly in relation to a ban on greyhound racing? It's something, I know, that Members on these benches and others across the Chamber have raised consistently with you, and, of course, we will do what we need to do in terms of working with you to make sure that what is introduced is fit for purpose and achieves the goal and the aim that you have stated this afternoon. But, of course, you did say that you want it to happen as soon as possible, and therein lies the small print, I suppose, doesn't it, because Government does need to show diligence and an adherence to proper process, otherwise you leave yourself open to challenge from those who might oppose such a move. So, maybe you could elaborate a little bit as to whether you believe that it's necessary to introduce primary legislation—I'm mindful of the timetable challenges in terms of legislating here now in the last 14 months that we have before dissolution—or whether you believe that other legal or regulatory routes are possible.

Doing something in a rush is always a risk, isn't it? And I know you're aware of this. Yes, we do need to act swiftly, but we do need to act properly here as well. Now, you reference in your statement—we do need the time to consider the consequences of a ban, and unforeseen consequences. We need to prevent, for example, unregulated racing or driving the whole sector underground. You touched on the welfare of existing greyhounds being protected as the industry potentially winds down in Wales. Now, much of that consideration has to happen concurrently with the development of any potential legislation, so are you confident that the 14 months that we have is sufficient to do that, if indeed it is your intention to make sure that this happens in this Senedd? I'm sure you could confirm that much for us.

On the wider issues, then, that you referenced, I'm just wondering how all of this sits together in the wider landscape of Government animal welfare policy, because we've had a statement on animal health and welfare without a single reference to the Wales animal health and welfare framework group, which I believe plays much of that role. The Wales animal health and welfare framework we had up to 2024, we have the animal welfare plan for Wales up to 2026, you referenced the national model for the regulation of animal welfare—how or where does all of that come together in a coherent approach? Maybe you could just enlighten us somewhat.

I agree with much of what's been said of livestock disease outbreaks and the need to be vigilant. Maybe that could be a separate statement, either oral or written, because foot and mouth, bluetongue, particularly with the spring ahead, and avian influenza as well are ones I know are causing great concern for the sector, and we need that reassurance, rather than just fleeting references in this statement today.

And finally from me, livestock attacks, of course—. I welcome the fact that you're hoping to use or work with those proposing private Members' Bills in the UK Government, but, of course, as we know, private Members' Bills don't always end up achieving what they'd intended to achieve when they started out. So, would you be willing to demand the relevant powers for Wales if we find, once again, because this isn't the first time that this has been tried at Westminster, that that aim of finally getting to grips in a meaningful way with attacks on livestock isn't something that's achieved in Westminster? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Llyr, thank you very much indeed, and thank you as well for the support for the decision that we've made now, as Welsh Government, to move forward with a ban on greyhound racing. I acknowledge the work of you and others around the Chamber, I have to say, who have spoken in so many debates, who have responded to constituents, who have engaged with stakeholders out there in order to come to the conclusions you have as well. The implementation group is going to be key to this, because some of the factors that you mentioned—and they are genuine factors, so things like the risk of driving underground either greyhound racing or, alternatively, racing with other dogs, not greyhounds and so on, because that has been known as well. So, dealing with that. So, in that, engaging with some of the animal welfare charities to understand the practicalities of this, the best way forward, I think is going to be important. So, that implementation group is going to be key.

And I think they're also going to be key as well in setting out for us the best way forward, because there are different ways forward—avoiding the negative externalities, the unintended consequences we want to avoid, jeopardising welfare in one way or another, but pointing to me, 'Right, here's the way you can do it.' And there are different ways: there are statutory instrument ways, there are primary legislation ways, there are ways in which this can be done. There are also ways that I think can encourage engagement with the process, so that everybody feels that they actually have their two penn'orth within it, whilst recognising that what we're on is to, as soon as possible, deliver a ban on greyhound racing. So, the implementation group is going to be key in this, and I look forward to coming back, after the recess, to actually scope out a little bit more about the timescale of that group. But when I say, 'as soon as possible', I apply the same sort of form of words to the work of the group as well; I want it to come forward in a timely manner with suggestions of the way forward.

You mentioned how this all hangs together. It all hangs together, of course, within the animal welfare plan for Wales. So, all of these elements—. I mean, the challenges—we are doing so much in so many areas of animal welfare in Wales, but it hangs together within that animal welfare plan. But, of course, coming forward shortly will be our response to the licensing consultation, which will be important as well, because that one has the potential to impact positively on thousands upon thousands upon thousands of animals right across Wales, of all different types and sizes and species.

On the matters of bluetongue and other diseases, I just want to give you the reassurance that this is far from the only opportunity that I'll be here debating this with you and others, and we also engage regularly, both with the CVO and with vets out in the field and with the APHA, but also with the farming unions as well. In fact, we meet on a regular basis with the National Farmers Union, the Farmers Union of Wales and other organisations. Even this week, I was in an hour's meeting with them and animal diseases was on the agenda.

And finally, on the Westminster legislation, look, we are hopeful because one of these Bills, of course, fell a couple of times previously. We are really hopeful, because it's been picked up and it's high in the rankings here and there is a real desire from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to see these supported; we're hopeful that these will come through—really hopeful. And we're keen to work with them—we've said that orally to them in meetings and we've put it in writing to them, so I'm really hopeful that they will now be delivered. Dealing with those issues of attacks on livestock and wider welfare issues, if we can do this because there's a private Member's Bill going forward, let's do it, let's grab the opportunity.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Following the debate in the Chamber last week and the petition submitted by Vanessa from Hope Rescue, I'd like to say that there are well over 35,000 people who are pleased and relieved to hear this statement today banning greyhound racing in Wales. I'd like to welcome the cross-party work we've been doing, and as chair of the animal welfare cross-party group, I'd like to thank the Welsh Government and all the officials for all that they do on animal welfare in Wales. I feel that we're really leading the way here. I'd also like to thank Animal Licensing Wales and most of all the dedication of all the organisations and experts, I must say, of the Cut the Chase coalition, who have spoken so much. And I'd like to also pay tribute to Almost Home Dog Rescue and Chris and Jo. Thank you very much to all those who have spoken and taken part in this. This is a good day—a good day—for thousands of animals in Wales and I'm so excited and so pleased to hear this.

My question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is: time is of the essence because the longer it goes on, the more dogs will be harmed, so if you could let us know of a timeline as soon as possible, working with organisations, which will help them as well, because I know they are ready—they are busy; they are full—to work with you to make sure that greyhounds are given a good home, going forward. Thank you very much.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Carolyn, thank you very much indeed. I just want to recognise the work that you've done as chair of the animal welfare cross-party group on this and many other issues, and the membership of that group as well, because it's one of those areas that, not just on greyhounds, but generally, has real cross-party support. But thank you for your support for the statement today, and particularly the announcement on our intention now to move forward with the banning of greyhound racing and to do it as soon as possible—I keep repeating that. But actually, the work really starts now and that's why the implementation group needs to get on with the work, and that's the first thing that I'll bring back to the Chamber—we will be scoping out a timeline for the work of that. And we don't want it to be long, we don't want this to disappear across the horizon. We need them to look at it very rapidly, but thoroughly—the points that were made by Llyr a moment ago—and really pull this to bits and say, 'Right, what is the best way forward that we can advise to get to that ban as soon as possible?' So, I look forward to bringing that forward rapidly. We'll be working on that over the recess and bringing that forward. And then, based on their deliberations, we can then set out the timetable for moving to a ban.

When I say that the work starts now, it's important to say that we want to engage with all of those stakeholders out there, we really do, and that includes things like, 'Well, what is the future for that track, then, going forward?' To avoid it being left abandoned, unloved, derelict and so on, 'What is the future for that?' et cetera, et cetera. There'll be lots of those things to look at as well. But I think, yes, in fairly short order, I'll be able to set out the timetable for the group, and then also to set out the timetable, based on their deliberations, as to how we can deliver the ban.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. I'll declare an interest: I am the owner of a rescue greyhound called Wanda. I have to say that there are not many times when I stand up in the Siambr and I'm smiling, but this is one of those days. It is, as Carolyn has said, an absolutely fantastic day. This is a landmark statement, which we must celebrate. It really does very clearly demonstrate the commitment that Wales has to looking after our animals.

I want to pay tribute to the Cut the Chase coalition and others, many of whom are in the gallery with us today. Thank you to you all—diolch yn fawr iawn. It is you who have brought this to the point that it is, and I couldn't do what you do, but we all want to thank you for your dedication, and I know you'll continue in your work to make sure that all animals are safe. Right now, I know you'll be celebrating in your hearts and in your heads, and maybe you'll be having a further celebration later on, but thank you very much—diolch yn fawr iawn.

I also want to pay tribute to all of those greyhounds who've gone before, and all of those greyhounds who will come after as well. You'll know that I started to talk about this as a result of owning Arthur, a traumatised greyhound who was eight years old when he came to us. I learnt a lot from him. He could sleep at 100 mph, but he was absolutely devastated by his experiences on the track, and we lost him three years later—far, far too early. But I dedicate this time to Arthur.

Many of you, I know—those of you in the gallery and many of us—have seen the trauma and the injuries to these dogs. Their suffering has been needless, their abuse has been unnecessary and their pain has been avoidable. But, from today, we need to mark this in the sand and make sure that this stops. It really is important that we remember that these dogs are wonderful, placid, calm, amazing animals. I'm proud to be an owner, and I say to all of you, as we look forward, that it might be that you will be asked to give a home to a greyhound rescue.

My question to you is: we have a track that is still active now, so I just really wondered if you could tell us what your aims are in terms of ensuring that the dogs on that track are safe, going forward, and that we protect them, keep them in Wales and, if necessary, work with those animal charities to ensure that they do have a forever home. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Jane; thank you very much indeed. We've heard a lot about Arthur previously, before he passed away, and Wanda now as well. And, look, I join you in recognition of all those campaigners—individuals and organisations—who've lent their weight to this over such a long time as well. In fact, if you look at other countries that have been through this, it's often been the external campaigners that have led to the changing mood amongst legislators that has led to the point where a Government stands up and says, 'Okay, we get it, we need to move forward.'

But I made the point earlier that the work actually starts now, and for some of those campaigning organisations that have a great deal of knowledge, whether it's in rehoming, fostering et cetera, we're going to need to draw on some of that expertise now, because one of those things we need to be ready for and prepare for, and I would want the implementation group to look at, is how we deal with those greyhounds that will, now, be looking for rehoming. That, clearly, relates to the later point that you made about the track. The ban isn't in place until the ban is in place, in which case the track is still hosting racing events and greyhounds are still racing there. Now, on that basis, we need to ensure that we continue to work with the track, that the monitoring is done, that the veterinary inspections are going on, that the welfare of the greyhounds that are currently racing is still monitored and looked after and so on, and that those greyhounds that are coming forward are still found good homes as well afterwards, including when they're injured, or worse as well.

So, we need to recognise that this isn't going to happen tomorrow, but we need to work towards this ban now as soon as possible, and that's why I think the work and implementation group to scope this out, and we need to draw on all the expertise that's out there, all the stakeholders that are out there, and say, ‘Well, right, how do we move, without unintended consequences, as rapidly as possible to that ban, so that Wales does actually lead the way now in this?’ But thank you very much, and thanks for the work that you've done on this as well.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, one thing that becomes very apparent very quickly when you're a front-line political representative is how strongly the public feel about animal welfare— rightly so—and that's become very apparent, I think, with greyhound racing as well, and I've certainly had a lot of correspondence from concerned constituents. We know the harm that's caused. Cut the Chase has done such a good job. They were here the other week on the Senedd steps with the 300 collars representing greyhounds who were killed at licensed tracks in England and Wales in one year, and they've provided us with information that 115 greyhounds were, unfortunately, killed on the Welsh track in one year. So, the harm is very clear indeed, and, when you're out walking in a park, you so often bump into people walking greyhounds, you get into a conversation and they explain that they're rescue dogs, and, when you hear about the backgrounds, it's so disturbing and worrying.

So, with that background, I'm very pleased that you've made this announcement today and also set out the process, but, given that this Senedd and this Government have 14 months to run, I wonder if you could tell us whether you are confident that a ban will be in place before that 14 months expires, because, obviously, the Welsh Government can only control these issues in Wales over that period of time. It's absolutely vital that we get this ban in place as quickly as possible to prevent any further suffering.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

John, I agree with you. The ban needs to be in place as soon as possible. Now that we've made the announcement, we need to work collectively—all people who have a stake in this—to make sure we can bring forward this ban as soon as possible. I want the implementation group to bring forward the way that we can do that, and there are ways to do that. I mentioned earlier on that primary legislation is a way forward, statutory instruments et cetera, but the important thing in all of this is also stakeholder engagement right across the piece—all the welfare, the economic, the future life of the track issues, all of those need to be bottomed out. We also need to work with some of those with experience in the animal welfare charity sectors to make sure that, even today, as we stand here, we don't have negative impacts happening straight away—so, for example, if people were to start now or soon sending their dogs across the border to race or whatever, et cetera. So, let me be crystal clear: the animal welfare legislation in Wales stays in place, the licensing and the track stays in place, all of that keeps on going, but we just need to get to that point where we can do this ban now as soon as practically possible.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Today is a good day for greyhounds in Wales. We can mark it down and, hopefully, make greyhound racing in Wales part of history. That was then and this is now. I certainly welcome your statement, and I look forward to hearing more about the implementation group, the timetable for their work and how quickly that's going to come back here so that a decision can be made. Because many people have said it's 14 months. It's not 14 months, actually. If you take in the time that we will close down operations before the election, it's more like 12 months.

But we have met many greyhounds, ex-racing dogs, and they are loving animals. They come up to people, they still trust people, which is pretty incredible. They love leaning on people, which is quite wonderful. But the point is that we have in Wales demonstrated over many years the ability to bring in groundbreaking legislation to safeguard animals, and I'm proud to stand here today along with colleagues and with the people upstairs who have driven this forward. And without all of those groups that have been paid tribute to here today giving us all that information, feeding it to us, we wouldn't be able to make that decision here today in the informed way that we can.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to ask a question now, please, Joyce.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

So, my question has already been asked: that is, to update us on the work of the implementation board and also how you intend to bring this legislation forward, and what form that might take.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Joyce, and, again, I recognise the work of you and others in supporting the change that there has been here over the years in this respect, but also broadly. This Assembly, as it then was, now Senedd, has always pioneered in this area of animal welfare, and proudly so, and I think we can do it again here as well. Just to give you that assurance again, yes, I'll bring forward in short order the timescale for the work of the implementation group and what it will be doing, who will be engaged in it. I'll work on that over recess and bring it forward, and then they can bring forward for me the way that we get as soon as possible to that ban on greyhound racing in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I don't demur from any of the comments that have been made here today, Minister, but what's really important is enforcement, because there will be illicit greyhound racing going on once you shut the licensed track. I've seen it time and time again, where legislation and fine words are spoken in this Chamber, yet the practical implementation and delivery on the ground is just not happening. And we see it with hare coursing in particular in the Vale of Glamorgan, which is a massive issue, and the police are unable, either through lack of resources or lack of current powers, to face down the hare coursers. So, I would ask in your preparation that your officials and yourself give due consideration to implementation of measures to make sure that illicit greyhound racing does not take hold, and that the authorities are consulted who will be charged with implementing this ban so that they have the suite of powers to stop—I'll use the words—a 'black market' opening up in illicit racing and gambling that will drive this to a violent underworld, and deep, deep, deep mistrust of what actually the legislation will ultimately achieve.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed. Andrew, it's a really pertinent point and that's why I think the work of the implementation group in frankly and honestly looking at the issues surrounding this, and how to avoid negative consequences that are foreseeable. The hare coursing is an interesting one because, of course, the massive amount of work that has gone into tackling hare coursing way back previously when it was out in the Fens and Lincolnshire and so on, and places like that, meant that they looked for other places that could go and they headed into Wales. We've got an enormous amount of work going on at the moment in north Wales on this particular issue, but, yes, there's an issue in the Vale as well—not just in the Vale, by the way, but also in the big, broad seeping common lands above Ogmore, sorry, not Ogmore-by-Sea, the constituency of Ogmore, up in the hills of mid Glamorgan and west Glamorgan.

But I think this aspect of the displacement of activity into unregulated, illegal criminal activity, that is something that I would also want the animal welfare charities, the police and others to look at as part of this piece of work, so that we take this forward in a very considered, very careful, well-judged manner to get to that ban as soon as practicably possible, but considering all of those elements within it. So, I suspect there'll be other days when we come back to the Chamber and we start unwrap this in some detail when the implementation group brings forward its ideas, but that is a relevant point that we need to guard against. And then it's also the issue that, if there were any danger of that happening, it is the enforcement and the engagement with the authorities on that to prevent it happening in the very first instance, I have to say.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

5. Statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: Building on Wales’s Recycling Success

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, building on Wales’s recycling success. Once again, I call on the Deputy First Minister to make the statement—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks again, Dirprwy Lywydd. The people of Wales spoke clearly during the First Minister's listening exercise, and today I want to show how we are turning their words into action. As Members will know, Wales is a world leader in recycling. Today, I want to set out how this Welsh Labour Government is building on that success to grow the economy, create jobs, tackle the climate and nature emergencies, and save people money in communities right across Wales.

Since the very earliest days of the Welsh Government, we have championed sustainable development, and that’s where our journey towards a circular economy has its roots. Back in 1999, we recycled less than 5 per cent of our municipal waste, with a staggering 95 per cent ending up in landfill. Since then, we’ve dramatically improved our recycling rates, and Wales has transformed into a recycling nation where every household and business plays a crucial part. Now we have reached a recycling rate of over 66 per cent, with municipal landfill down to less than 1 per cent.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

This Senedd term, we've not only continued to increase our recycling, but we've taken another major step forward. Thanks to our new workplace recycling laws, recycling in workplaces now mirrors how we recycle at home, separating glass, paper, food, metal and plastic. This is not only a key step towards ending throwaway culture, but it is one of the biggest actions we’ve taken to reduce carbon emissions and tackle the nature emergency this Senedd term.

On top of that, working in partnership with the other UK Governments, we now have new laws that help us to both improve recycling and to boost investment for local authorities. Under these new laws, producers pay for the packaging that they put onto the market. This means there’s a direct incentive to reduce packaging, and it will also, by the way, generate over £1 billion for local authorities UK wide. This funding stream will be invaluable to our local authorities. It will help support investment in infrastructure that’s crucial to creating this circular economy, during what are challenging times for public services, as we seek, indeed, to recover from the impact of the last 14 years of Conservative Government in Westminster.

Our progress in recycling has made us a world leader, and it's a huge step towards tackling the climate and nature emergencies. Alongside the environmental imperative to act, there is an economic imperative too. We are determined to put Wales on the forefront of the next industrial revolution, as we transition to a greener, more circular and decarbonised economy. And this Welsh Labour Government is determined that working people right across Wales will feel a fair share of the benefits and the opportunities.

Our world-class recycling is already helping to attract inward investment and to create jobs in Wales. For example, the new Jayplas plastic recycling plant in Swansea will process 100,000 tonnes of plastics every year and create 100 new jobs. In Deeside, the redevelopment of Shotton mill has attracted investment of over £1 billion and safeguarded 147 jobs. The site will become one of the UK’s largest recycled packaging centres, creating a further 220 jobs. Businesses like this know that, in coming to Wales, they can access good-quality recycling, thanks to the efforts of the people in Wales. For companies already operating in Wales, we have support to improve their resource efficiency. The circular economy fund for business helps businesses take important steps, like adapting their processes to use recycled material, and to reduce the materials they need to use. There are 40 businesses that have benefited so far, with more in the pipeline.

We've invested £13 million from the circular economy fund to establish 81 repair and reuse hubs right across the whole of Wales. Supported by partnerships between local authorities and voluntary organisations, these hubs are helping to encourage reuse, whilst also helping save people money right across Wales. So, for example, in Aberdare and in Newport, we funded the refurbishment of vacant buildings on the high streets to turn them into repair and reuse hubs, and to help revitalise those high streets. We've delivered a dedicated reuse or repair facility at 80 per cent of our local authorities' recycling centres. These range from a reuse hub in Llandrindod Wells to the sheds across Rhondda Cynon Taf and the charitable re-use shop in Rhyl. We are now working with the remaining four local authorities so that we cover the whole of Wales.

In partnership with the voluntary sector, we have put in place a network of repair cafes in 126 communities, delivered by Repair Cafe Wales. Indeed, I recently visited Carmarthen repair cafe and saw the incredible work of the organisation and the volunteers in action. By helping to fix people's broken items, the cafes across Wales have saved local people over £1 million in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis. That's £1 million back in people's pockets. We have also supported Benthyg Cymru to establish a network of 20 'libraries of things' that lease household items like gardening tools, pressure washers and carpet cleaners at a low cost to local communities.

Building this fairer, greener Wales is at the heart of everything we do in this Welsh Labour Government. That's why we are working in partnership with FareShare Cymru, where we have taken action to fight food poverty and are also tackling food waste. Indeed, I visited with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government their facilities in south Wales, to witness how our investment of £3.9 million supports FareShare Cymru to redistribute over 6,600 tonnes of surplus food. They have provided over 15 million meals to Wales, to over 441 community groups and charities like Huggard, helping the homeless in the heart of Cardiff; Hope House just outside Llanelli, which helps young people with drug and alcohol addiction; Y Pantri in Colwyn Bay, Wales's first social supermarket; and North Cornelly Luncheon Club near Bridgend, which brings older people together, as well as helping to reduce the greenhouse gas impacts of food waste.

We have also supported, Dirprwy Lywydd, circular economy action within the public sector, including on projects to reduce waste in the health service. One million pounds has been put into five projects, including a trial of reusable sterile surgical textiles in Aneurin Bevan, Swansea bay and Cardiff and Vale university health boards. These are just some of the ways in which we are building on our recycling record to deliver on the priorities of the people of Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Dirprwy Lywydd, together, we can ensure that Wales grasps the opportunities of the next industrial revolution with innovative businesses and new jobs for people in the greener, more circular economy of the future. And by encouraging reuse and repair as part of everyday life in the heart of our communities, we can help to end throwaway culture and the pollution that it brings, benefiting both the planet and people's pockets. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. There's some really good news in there. I've always said, when you get it right, we should actually acknowledge that. The recycling rates are fantastic, and of course I have to pay tribute to my own local authority, over many years, who have worked really hard to make sure that they are really doing their very best. It's now showing great dividends in terms of that.

I also liked, in your statement, where you mentioned about producer packaging. That's been a real bone of contention as far as I'm concerned, because too often now you buy items and the packaging is larger than the actual—. It's insulting, almost, to the contents in it. It's unbelievable. So, anything that can be done, as you say, going forward on that, is a real success for me.

Fly-tipping, though, I've got to raise that here today. Too often now, I don't know—. I don't mind saying this, if people are—. Well, yes, I see fly-tipping so much in Aberconwy. But we need to get it right whereby people feel that they can take mattresses or any old things that they don't want anymore, we need to make it easy for them to facilitate getting rid of those items. Too often, we see items in our hedgerows, farmers' fields, private land, local authority-owned land, Welsh Government-owned land. I know that because our local authorities are strapped for cash, they haven't got the enforcement teams out there, but it's something I feel really passionate about, so I'd be really glad if we could, perhaps, make enforcement easier.

When people are caught fly-tipping, it is illegal, and high fines might just be a deterrent to others. In the past, if I've seen people that I believe to be leaving things in a particular area, I will stop, and I've even seen people put things back in their cars and drive off, and I've taken number plates and things. But we shouldn't be having to individually police this. Tackling fly-tipping needs to involve a wide range of stakeholders, from health and education to local authorities and Welsh Government. So, will you outline what new steps you're taking during the rest of the Senedd to try and turn this tide of fly-tipping?

You commented:

'Thanks to our new workplace recycling laws, recycling in workplaces now mirrors how we recycle at home'.

That isn't strictly true. In Conwy county, residential premises have trolley boxes and small food caddies. Businesses, however, including my own constituency office now—we have to have huge recycling bins for two or three containers a week. I just think not many shopkeepers, in particular, or office people, have the space to have all those different recycling receptacles. So, I think that needs more work on it. What discussions have you had with local authorities to enable those businesses who wish, like my office, to have the same recycling arrangements as residential properties with smaller bins? Such action would help many businesses who do produce little waste but don't have enough space to store those units.

New jobs are being created in the recycling sector, but this does not make up for the fact that the employment rate for people aged 16 to 64 in Wales was 73 per cent in the year ending June 2024. So, that was down percentage points on the previous year. Major positive contributors are members of the British Metals Recycling Association. They have 24 sites in Wales, and their members support 750 Welsh jobs, contributing £350 million to the Welsh economy each year. As the use of electric arc furnace technology in steel making increases, so too will the need for the previously used steel that BMRA members manufacture. So, what steps are you taking to co-operate with them, so that they're maximising the economic and recycling opportunities they offer?

I actually think that's a really good slogan and it's one that we've got to make happen:

'Building this fairer, greener Wales is at the heart of everything we do in this Welsh...Government.'

As you know, I believe in the legal requirements, introduced by the Welsh Government through the future generations Act, that Wales must be globally responsible. So, again, I want you to be more forthcoming with how you intend to move towards net zero 2050, but without the continual offshoring of our emissions.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, that's it. Done.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Janet, thank you very much indeed. Can I join you, just in paying tribute to all the local authorities? I mentioned the people of Wales who've really taken us to this leadership position globally, but so have the local authorities. And in some local authorities it's been relatively smooth, in others it's been more difficult. And often it's working with people, not just on the technicalities, but on the behavioural change. But now, it's like people are almost, across Wales, automatically doing it. They look across the border and think, 'Why aren't they doing it? We're just doing this.'

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

[Inaudible.]

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed. And, curiously, this is why the transition to the workplace recycling, I think, was smoother. We've still got things to work on. Just to say, very clearly, Dirprwy Lywydd, all our platforms of advice and support for businesses out there are still there. So, they can work, they can go to their local authority, they can be directed to our online resources, and they're categorised by sector as well—so, it's caravan and camp sites, it is third sector organisations, it is whatever—and to use that. Look, come and see my office, because we went through this with our cleaning and waste contractor, and they were saying, 'What do we do?' and so on. So we, with them, worked on, 'Well, here's the advice. What can we do?' We've ended up with smaller bins under the kitchen counter. Rather than three massive ones, or three or four massive ones, we've got smaller ones specifically designed for him now to work with. It's the same contractor—local, a local business—and they've adapted now to it. But I think we just need to keep working and flagging the people that the advice is out there, 'Go and see what others are doing', and then make the workplace recycling happen.

You touch on, and I know you regularly champion, the issue of fly-tipping. Fly-tipping and the waste that we see in our local environment—it is an absolute pain. We can do a lot on this, on a range of levels. So, the fly-tipping action plan is what drives our overall approach. Enforcement is key as well, and we increasingly see now—. I was looking at places like Caerphilly the other day, which went over the last few years from very few penalties to a raft of heavy hitting penalties, very well publicised. The message is important to the public, to say, 'This is what will happen. You get caught; this is what will happen.' Obviously, we can't put cameras in every place, although we do invest with local authorities in cameras and surveillance. Sometimes, it's difficult. But I think that message, that you will be chased, that you will be pursued if you fly-tip—.

There's also, of course, the role of individual responsibility in this, and keeping on saying to people, 'Join with us on this. Be a responsible young person, and adult as well. Do not litter.' And if you're a householder, why would you not make use of what is available locally in terms of getting rid of your waste? Why would you not make sure that the van that appears to take your waste away is actually a licensed courier? We do enough now in promoting this. It's hard to say that anybody should not be aware of this. And I'm happy to say it here in the Senedd as well: do not give it to somebody who's not licensed, because that will be the stuff that will end up fly-tipped down the back lane around the back of your house.

We're also funding Keep Wales Tidy. Of course, Keep Wales Tidy work extensively within communities to empower them to do tidy-ups. I was out on Saturday morning with my local group, the Llynfi river clean-up group as well. They've just started now for the new year.

We've banned, of course, single-use plastics. We're moving to a ban in June on vapes, which is a right pain in our local communities—those little capsules everywhere. The environmental impact of that is horrendous. And, of course, we will move forward while supporting the UK Government, and the Scots, and Northern Ireland on their approach with recycle deposit-return use. We're moving to—. With recycle DRS, we are going to push on not just where we are on recycling—second in the world—but also to reuse DRS. And that is important because it deals with not only litter and that circular economy of materials, but also, of course, it can create first-to-the-market jobs here in Wales of the sort we've been describing, of people who can reuse the stuff rather than smash them up and recycle. But thank you, Janet.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Certainly, I welcome this statement, and I'd like to recognise what's been said and recognise the great achievements that have been made in Wales in terms of recycling. This status that we have as the second best nation in the world is something that we have to celebrate. And as has been said, that's a reflection of the efforts of communities; groups such as Keep Wales Tidy, certainly; local authorities; businesses—so many people across Wales. It's definitely something that we need to celebrate.

At the same time, maintaining that success and building on it will be a challenge, and I welcome a number of the things that you've said this afternoon about that. We will need ambition and investment, and we will need a fundamental shift, as you have said, towards a truly circular economy.

Now, we've already talked this afternoon about the deposit-return scheme, or the DRS. There has been much discussion about including glass in the plan. Now, personally, I agree with the plan to include glass. I think we have to be ambitious. We also, of course, need to recognise the genuine concerns of businesses, and ensure that their voices are heard. So, I would like to know how the Government have engaged and how does it want to engage with small businesses in developing the final policy, and what assessment has been made of the practical implications for those businesses. Again, I think that this is something that we have to do, to take people with us as it's rolled out.

Then, beyond the DRS, recycling alone will not be enough, evidently. Again, I welcome what has been said about reuse and repair and waste prevention, and in the statement, there are a number of examples of good things that are happening across Wales in various communities. In terms of ensuring that these facilities are available in all communities in Wales, what will the Government do to ensure that this is available to everyone? And also, not just that these options are available, but that they’re accessible and affordable, and that that change, that cultural shift happens, because it’s not something that one country can do alone. So, what do you think the role is for the Government in facilitating that?

Now, moving on to another issue that’s related to this, introducing workplace recycling requirements in April was an important step. Now, nearly a year later, to evaluate how that’s had an impact, could you provide information to us on compliance rates of enforcement measures, and could you confirm whether all public bodies, including Transport for Wales, are adhering to these requirements? The reason I raise this is that it's a subject of frustration for people who contacted me—despite the new rules, recycling facilities on new and old TfW trains are not always available, or are limited. So, what can we do to ensure that that situation improves?

Again, there has been mention made of the extender producer responsibility, or EPR. In terms of packaging waste, and the fact that the EPR payments are not hypothecated, some councils have directed revenue for that to other services. There are so many challenges facing local councils at present, how will the Government recognise that concern and the risk of that being disregarded as a result, please? And I’m just looking at time— I know I’m running out of time.