Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 12 February 2025

245 contributions from 37 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, and the first question is from James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

1. How is the Welsh Government working with sport governing bodies to support the armed forces? OQ62279

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch. The Welsh Government has an enduring moral duty to support our armed forces in all aspects of their daily lives. Our remit letter to Sport Wales makes it clear we expect to see improved access to sporting opportunities for all, including members of the armed forces.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, and it's very positive that Sport Wales have signed the armed forces covenant, but I'd like us to go a little bit further. And I'd like to know if the Welsh Government would consider setting up an armed forces-friendly sports club scheme across Wales to better support serving personnel, veterans and their families. I think this could be done, working with the Welsh Rugby Union and the Football Association of Wales and other bodies across the country. And I think such a scheme could make a real difference in helping to improve the mental and physical well-being of our veterans and those in the process of leaving the armed forces and transitioning to civilian life, and in strengthening those community ties between our armed forces and our sports bodies across Wales. So, I think this is something, Minister, that I think could work and I'd be very interested to hear whether you'd give your support for such a scheme being established across Wales.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank James Evans for the question and for his support for the armed forces community, Presiding Officer? I know that he’s a member of the armed forces cross-party group, and I enjoyed my time on that cross-party group. I think it’s an invaluable cross-party group of this Senedd.

I, too, was pleased that, in December, Sport Wales became a signatory of the armed forces covenant, committing to treating fairly those who serve or who have served in the armed forces, and their families, and they did that because of the work of the cross-party group and the support of the Welsh Government.

Promoting defence employer recognition schemes is another way in which sports clubs and governing bodies can show support for the armed forces community. It’s not just Sport Wales that have signed the covenant, Presiding Officer. The Member will be interested to now that elite clubs, such as the Scarlets, such as Glamorgan County Cricket Club, and such as Wrexham AFC, have also committed to signing the covenant as well.

The Member asked a particular question. I’m happy to consider his request and see what that may entail, and to have the conversation with Sport Wales and key stakeholders, such as the WRU and the FAW, to see where we can further strengthen our support for the armed forces community.

Presiding Officer, this also gives me the chance to say, in response to this question, as I know the Member joined me in a Senedd event just last month with those taking part in the Invictus Games, that we often talk about the role that sport can play in helping people going through trauma to process trauma or to adjust to change. The Invictus Games is a shining example of that, and I wish them all the very best in Canada—they are taking place now, I believe, Presiding Officer.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I’m another member of the cross-party group on the armed forces, and a quick plug: I would urge other Members to join. The one thing that the armed forces provide is exercise in order to keep the members of the armed forces fit. When they leave the armed forces, they need to keep that fitness up. It can be difficult to do so. I have more experience with professional sports people, and we all know that when they retire, they can lose fitness and rapidly gain weight. Can the Minister provide an update on the veteran swimming scheme?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his question. Llywydd, Mike Hedges is possibly this Senedd’s biggest sporting fan that we have as a Member. He will be really pleased to know that, on the elite level clubs that I mentioned to James Evans, included within them is the Ospreys in signing the armed forces covenant.

It’s a good question to ask around the armed forces swimming scheme, Presiding Officer. We launched our armed forces free swimming scheme in February 2016, offering free swimming to both veterans and serving members of the armed forces. I was very pleased recently that we were able to increase the budget in this financial year for the armed forces free swimming scheme to £80,000, and this is in response to increased demand, ensuring that those who have served can continue to benefit from this important scheme for the reasons that Mike Hedges has outlined this afternoon.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on economic development in Blaenau Gwent? OQ62318

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government continues to work closely with key partners, including Cardiff Capital Region, Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council and businesses, on the infrastructure and skills needed to deliver economic growth and prosperity to all parts of south-east Wales, including Blaenau Gwent.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for her response. She will be aware that the Tech Valleys project, which was launched in 2017, will be coming to an end in a couple of years' time. She is clearly aware that the dualling of the A465 will also be completed later this year. This means that we have an opportunity to look again at how we are delivering economic development and jobs in the Heads of the Valleys region, including Blaenau Gwent. My question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is this: what and how will the Welsh Government deliver, for those jobs and that prosperity? We've been through investment programmes and we've been through infrastructure programmes. What we now need is to follow that with investment in the business environment in the borough of Blaenau Gwent. We saw before Christmas a new investment north of Ebbw Vale, we've seen new investments elsewhere, we've seen the sort of interest there is in investing in the borough now. What we need from the Welsh Government is the continued focus and the means of delivering a jobs programme in the Heads of the Valleys that maximises the impact of the investments that have already been made.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful to Alun Davies for those questions, and also for the meeting that we had recently, which was very helpful in setting out the importance of having that strategic approach to creating jobs in the area, but also making sure that businesses have the commercial properties available to them that they need in order to relocate or locate to the area, or to expand. So, following the meeting that I had with Alun Davies, I've asked my officials to prepare some options that would allow closer collaboration between the Welsh Government, through the Tech Valleys, or the northern valleys initiative, for example, to collaborate with the Cardiff Capital Region, to jointly capitalise on the significant investment that we've been making in terms of improving connectivity, particularly with the A465 investment. So, I'm grateful for the meeting, and I want to reassure colleagues that that has now led to some further work that will be important.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, the High Value Engineering Centre in Blaenau Gwent will be at the forefront of training the next generation of engineers. The centre, set to open later this year, will provide hands-on training and education in robotics, aerospace, motor sports and manufacturing. Put simply, this centre is equipping youngsters with skills for careers in the industries of the future, which will, in turn, hopefully, lead to high, well-paid jobs. HiVE is important not only because it will be a sector-leading resource in the heart of Blaenau Gwent, but also because it reaches out to primary and secondary schools across south-east Wales to engage young people in the STEM curriculum from a very young age. This Coleg Gwent centre will complement the Welsh Government's Tech Valleys programme, which aims to attract businesses from cutting-edge industries, such as 5G, battery technology and autonomous vehicles in the area. It's therefore imperative that the Tech Valleys project truly delivers its objectives if we are to boost economic development in Blaenau Gwent. So, can the Cabinet Secretary please update us on this piece of work, including any recent success stories? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, certainly. The Welsh Government is really delighted to be able to invest in the skills of people living in Blaenau Gwent, and to do so with Coleg Gwent, through the support that we've given to the high-value engineering facility in Ebbw Vale. As we've heard, that really does offer further education students and other commercial users across Wales the opportunity to gain skills in advanced manufacturing, and also in an environment that is fit for the future as well. So, I think that is a really good example of the success that we've been able to bring to the area. Since the first allocation of funding in 2018, the Tech Valleys programme has now invested over £42 million in a range of place-based projects focused on Blaenau Gwent, and with benefits reaching out then across the northern Valleys area. To date, investment in these initiatives has helped create over 300,000 sq ft of new and refurbished floor space, enabling 750 potential jobs. So, that's just one example, I think, of some success that we've had through the Tech Valleys programme.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to enquire firstly about the funding in the culture sector in Wales. The increased allocation in the Welsh Government's latest budget is a step in the right direction, but, due to the increase in employer national insurance contributions, much of the increase has been wiped out, and the closure of the national museum in Cardiff last week was a sad reminder of how the arts and culture sector in Wales has been abandoned. There was £25 million required for the urgent repairs, yet £3 million was the most the Welsh Government could offer last year, and that had to be spread across the whole of the Amgueddfa Cymru site.

The Welsh Government appears to see the culture sector as a luxury to indulge in in times of prosperity, and I’m concerned that the importance of this sector is not being recognised. So, will the Minister recognise the pressure placed on the culture and arts sector in Wales, recognise that the funding increase in the current draft budget is not enough, and follow the recommendations of the culture committee’s report by committing to increasing funding, preventative spending, and a culture and sport strategy?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Llywydd, can I thank Gareth Davies for his opening questions this afternoon? I think it’s the first opportunity we’ve had in spokespersons questions to engage in this way.

I’m very pleased, Presiding Officer, that the Member has recognised, in the budget—in the draft budget—that the uplift of 3.6 per cent is a step in the right direction. We’re able to do that, Presiding Officer, because of the budget coming from Westminster. We’ve spent 14 long years with austerity, where budgets were slashed, we had the mismanagement of the economy during the mini-budget, and the sending of the economy into turmoil—[Interruption.] In the culture questions he’s asking about, he needs to realise that the budgets for the Welsh Government come from the UK Government, and this particular budget, Presiding Officer, is the first opportunity we’ve had, with our UK Labour colleagues—. It's a 3.6 per cent uplift in the draft budget, which is a step in the right direction, as the Member has recognised. It’s unfortunate that he voted against it, as did his Conservative colleagues, in the draft budget. He has an opportunity to change that, come the final budget, Presiding Officer.

I will make the case every single day for more money for the arts. I recognise the challenges that the sector faces. I have regular engagement with all areas of the culture and arts sector, and I look forward to continuing working with them through these challenges as we progress.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

With respect, Minister, I think it’s a conflating of matters, as my question is around the museum in Cardiff and, indeed, the money they’ve been asking for. And this money that they’ve been short of is over a sustained period of time during, which the Welsh Government have had exclusive authority over for many, many years. So, to add a political element to something that we spent a lot of time discussing in the topical question last week—and, indeed, I attended the Welsh Government briefing on this matter—I find your response not really in direct relation to my question, with respect.

But, as my second question, I’d like to raise concerns around the accountability of arm’s-length bodies to the taxpayer and who provides them with money. The previously mentioned national museum in Cardiff is currently displaying political exhibits directly attacking the Conservative Party. Given that the national museum is in receipt of these—. I’ve seen the exhibits myself, and it’s sort of 'Tories out' and all this sort of stuff. Well, that’s not everybody’s reflection of Wales. We have to have our national institutions and museums being representative of all of Wales, not just one school of thought, which has been this. So, what oversight does the Minister have over culture and arts spending, to ensure that arm’s-length bodies such as Amgueddfa Cymru spend taxpayers’ money effectively and contribute to an arts and culture sector that truly reflects the whole of Wales, and not just one school of thought?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you, Gareth Davies, for those supplementary questions. The Member is right—he did raise Cardiff museum in his opening question, and forgive me for not responding to that directly, Gareth. We went over the Cardiff museum situation, I think, in the topical question last week, where we referred in that question to the money that has been allocated to the museum currently and in the draft budget, going forward, which the Member, and Plaid Cymru colleagues, can support if they want to. I was grateful for the Member joining the briefing last week and for spending his time there.

The Member then asks me around arm’s-length bodies and my role within them. Well, they’re at arm’s length for a reason, Presiding Officer, and I don’t think it’s for the Minister to dictate what is in museums and being exhibited. I think that’s for the professionals within the museums themselves. I note the Member’s offer to perhaps curate future exhibits. I won’t be making that offer to the museum; he can if he wants to.

In the same breath, Presiding Officer, he asks for political engagement and then calls for no politics to be involved in the museum. So, the Welsh Conservatives clearly don’t have a plan for the sector. It’s obvious from this afternoon. Presiding Officer, the Member said, ‘Don’t have signs saying “Tories out”, because that doesn’t reflect what Wales said.’ Well, they said that in the general election last year, Presiding Officer. Perhaps the Member wishes to broaden his horizons within this portfolio. I’m sure the amgueddfa would be very pleased to host him in his shadow ministerial capacity. I particularly suggest that he engages and goes to the exhibition on the miners’ strike, Presiding Officer. There is lots to remember there—important Welsh history that we shouldn’t forget.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Are you seriously trying to say that arm’s-length bodies do not have any accountability with the Welsh Government? Are there no accounts to be produced to the Welsh Government? Are there no auditing processes? I’m sure that would have to be the case. Any prudent Government spending taxpayers’ money on these items—. So, is there no accountability from arm’s-length bodies? I think there is a line of Welsh Government responsibility in this matter. And the ‘Tories out’ signs were a reflection of the mid-1980s when we had 15 Tory MPs in those times, so it’s not a reflection of the current political situation as it’s giving a general history.

I’m not going to be preached to and patronised in a way that’s not reflective of my own knowledge. So, can the Minister please provide more details on the auditing processes that the Welsh Government would hold in this regard, and what accountability methods do the Welsh Government hold on arm’s-length bodies in Wales?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Gareth Davies for that. Presiding Officer, I don’t think I did say the things that Gareth points to in terms of accountability. I think I pointed out that the arm’s-length bodies are arm’s length for the reasons that we all understand. I’m very, very happy to provide a technical briefing for the Member from officials to understand the arm’s-length principle. It will serve him well in his responsibilities for this. They do have accountability, Presiding Officer. I think the technical briefing would be helpful for the Member in this role, and his role on the culture committee in scrutinising the Welsh Government, and I’d be very happy to set that up for him in the near future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of the Secretary of State for Wales’s Welsh economic growth advisory group. Could the Cabinet Secretary clarify what exactly the role of Welsh Government is on this group? Is it a matter of Welsh economic growth strategy being outsourced to Whitehall?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Secretary of State’s group is there so that the Secretary of State can hear directly from industry and those involved in the economy in Wales. As a Minister, I don’t directly sit on that group, but inevitably through my officials we are able to share the intelligence that we gain through our discussions with the representative bodies of business and of businesses themselves as the Secretary of State goes about that work, listening to people involved in the economy in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can I just say, I’m struggling to hear the Cabinet Secretary? I think there are two Members of her own party discussing either the football or rugby on Sunday. I heard that much from them. I struggled to hear the Cabinet Secretary. So, can all Members, especially those of her own party, listen to the Cabinet Secretary and her response? Diolch.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. So, from what I’m understanding, we have a situation, really, where the Government, firstly, isn’t being represented by you as the Cabinet Secretary on this group. From written questions I’ve submitted, we have a situation where the Government is unable to directly influence the priorities or the strategy of that group. So, you understand how this looks, Cabinet Secretary. We’ve had previous Members of Government say publicly that Welsh Government doesn't know what it's doing on the economy. Wales continues to lag behind the rest of the UK in terms of economic indicators. Now, I think it would be reasonable to interpret such a move as the Secretary of State deciding to take matters into her own hands. We both know what the reaction would have been had this been a Conservative Secretary of State, so why is it acceptable now?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The view of the group couldn’t be further from the truth. The fact is that a Welsh Government Minister does not sit on an advisory group to a UK Government Minister. We work as peers, we have parity of esteem and respect in the discussions that we have with Ministers, so it wouldn’t be appropriate, I don’t think, for a Welsh Government Minister to be sitting on an advisory group for a UK Minister. We have those discussions Minister to Minister, Government to Government.

That’s not to say that we don’t take an active interest in that group. The fora that I sit on are the inter-ministerial groups, the Interministerial Group for Business and Industry, the inter-ministerial group looking at post-EU relations with other countries and the trade agreements that we make through the Interministerial Group for Trade. So, the appropriate place for Ministers to have discussions is through those inter-ministerial groups, whereas it’s perfectly appropriate, of course, for the Secretary of State to receive advice and information on the economy from an advisory group as well.

So, Welsh Government officials attend those meetings in order to be able to share our Welsh Government intelligence, as I say, in that space. But, just in terms of the way in which Governments work one with another, I think that it is appropriate to have those discussions Minister to Minister, rather than being one of many voices on an advisory group.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Listening to that response, you rightly point out that the inter-ministerial groups are the way for Ministers to engage with each other, so it begs the question, 'Well, what was the need to set up this economic advisory group, then?' Why couldn't that be done through an inter-ministerial group, where you were able to sit there with parity with the Secretary of State for Wales? Right now, we have a group in place, where the Secretary of State for Wales sits on that group, and then is able to direct the strategy of that group and the direction that group wants to take when it comes to economic development here in Wales. Now, this doesn't look good. Is this what we really were thinking when we heard from the Government about that partnership in power? The Secretary of State for Wales assuming responsibility for economic growth in Wales while ignoring calls from the Welsh Government to devolve the Crown Estate is not a good look.

The very fact that Labour MPs in London voted down an amendment that chimes with Welsh Labour policy shows, actually, the lack of respect Labour in London have for the Senedd and the Welsh Government. All we've been told since 2021 is that a Labour Government both ends of the M4 would result in a stronger Wales. Well, when it comes to economic policy, so far all it has meant is a refusal to devolve essential powers and then the Secretary of State going over the head of Welsh Government to direct economic policy. Now, is that really something that you want to defend?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’m afraid that we just aren’t going to see eye to eye on this particular issue and that we just take a different perspective on the ways in which Governments can show respect and parity with one another. So, as I say, the way in which the Welsh Government approaches this is through those direct discussions that we have Minister to Minister, and we have those discussions all of the time.

I was just talking to the Secretary of State for Wales at the transition board meeting, which you were at recently, and you could see that we do genuinely work in partnership. I was talking to UK Government Ministers about the industrial strategy. Again, that’s something that the Welsh Government is very involved in. We’ve been identifying the specific sectors that are of importance to us, those areas where we see potential for high growth, and then exploring how we work with the UK Government in that space. I work closely with the Secretary of State for Energy, talking about the potential for floating offshore wind here in Wales, what we need from the Government in terms of decisions around the floating offshore wind manufacturing investment scheme, and what the opportunities are through the national wealth fund for Wales. So, those discussions happen, but they happen, I think, at the appropriate level. And, as I say, it’s entirely appropriate that the Secretary of State for Wales receives advice from people on the ground, working in business in Wales. But where the discussions between Governments take place, I think, should be a different place and we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, I’m afraid, on that particular point.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

3. How is the Welsh Government's planning policy supporting communities affected by flooding? OQ62289

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

'Planning Policy Wales' requires planning authorities to adopt a precautionary approach to avoid development in areas of flooding from the sea or from rivers.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. I'm concerned that Powys County Council is making inappropriate decisions on planning applications, because they're basing decisions on a local flood management strategy that is well past its sell-by date. They're saying that they can't update that policy, because they're waiting for your revised technical advice note 15. Now, with regard to that, originally that TAN 15, your predecessor said it would be published in 2023, then it was by the end of 2023. In October, you said it would be published this winter. So, can I ask when you now expect to publish your revised TAN 15? And secondly, do you think it's reasonable that a local planning authority is stating that they cannot update their policies because they are waiting for your revised TAN 15 guidance?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I do understand the anxieties of local authorities and their desire to have clarity on this particular issue. It's something I've taken a particular personal interest in, because we absolutely have to get this right, having listened to local authorities' concerns in relation to technical advice note 15.

I do expect to publish the TAN in the spring, and the revised TAN will provide guidance in respect of new development, but, of course, it cannot remove the threat of flooding currently faced by existing communities. But it will seek to ensure that new flood defences are brought forward to support new development. Obviously, there are huge cost implications; it won't be possible to protect every single community. But the TAN will all also place increased emphasis on aligning development proposals and flood-risk considerations through the local development plan, and I know that's something that has been of particular interest to colleagues in local government in this particular space. But, as I say, the intention is to publish the TAN in the spring, and we are getting there.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

May I thank Russell George for raising this important issue? You'll be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that this weekend marks five years since storm Dennis devastated communities right across Wales. One of the concerns that was raised then was the lack of resources in Natural Resources Wales to be able to support communities, support local authorities, in terms of determining flood risk. We know now that storms are becoming much more frequent, much more extreme, not just in Wales, but across the world. So, can I ask, with those revisions to TAN 15, how are you ensuring that they are able to look at the frequency of flooding we're seeing, the more extreme weather, to deal with what used to be one in 100 years, one in 200 years occurrences, which are actually becoming annual in some cases?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for that question. Natural Resources Wales obviously play an absolutely critical role in this. Recognising that, and their role in the planning system more widely, we have provided an additional £5 million in the budget for the next financial year, to assist them in their role in this respect.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I attended an advice surgery in Llanhilleth last Friday, alongside Councillor Helen Cunningham, the councillor for the ward, and we were speaking to a number of people who'd been affected by the flooding that took place last year. One of the issues that keeps coming up, of course, is access to insurance. I think it was about a decade ago that Flood Re was introduced by the UK Government, but it does appear that people are both unaware of its existence and also unsure how to access it, and I'm not convinced that it covers all of the areas that we need it to cover, to ensure that people do have access to affordable insurance when they live in an area that is at risk of flooding. Would it be possible for the Welsh Government to make a statement on these matters, to write to Members, to ensure that everybody has access to the information they require, and to ensure that Flood Re is fit for purpose, and if it isn't, then to talk to the United Kingdom Government about legislation that will strengthen Flood Re, and strengthen the sustainability and robust approach that people need in order to insure their homes?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, I'd be more than happy to write to colleagues, highlighting the existence and the availability of Flood Re, and the ways in which it can support their constituents to access insurance. And I'll also take some advice from officials in respect of those further questions around whether Flood Re might need strengthening, and if so, to make those representations to the UK Government.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the potential impact on Wales in 2025-26 of the shared prosperity fund? OQ62295

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The UK Government’s transition year for the shared prosperity fund intends to provide some continuity and certainty for local authorities and beneficiaries ahead of a new approach from April 2026 that does not bypass the Welsh Government and Senedd.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

As chair of the cross-party group on industrial communities, the group has received regular reports from our colleagues in the Industrial Communities Alliance regarding the future of the shared prosperity fund. Now, while the pre-Christmas announcement on the year extension was welcomed by local authorities, there remains no certainty in terms of the long-term funding. The Industrial Communities Alliance has emphasised the role that local growth funding can play in supporting an industrial strategy and national economic growth. So, what representations have you made to the UK Government on the shared prosperity fund and a successor scheme?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, we had quite in-depth discussions with the UK Government in respect of this, the final transitional year of the shared prosperity fund, and we were of the view—and I think it was shared by local authorities—that, actually, it's best for the UK Government to use its powers to deliver the scheme in this final year, recognising those strong arguments made by colleagues in local government about the need for certainty and continuity as the programme, in this iteration, winds down. I also, though, recognise the importance of having certainty over what comes next, so post 2026. So, we are working at the moment to develop our longer term approach based on work that was undertaken by Huw Irranca-Davies when he was leading a group that looked at the future of regional funding in Wales, but then also considering the work that we commissioned from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which, again, has been very helpful in this space. But at every step, we want to be involving all relevant partners—local government particularly, but also, of course, academia, the third sector and others—who have a really strong and legitimate interest in what comes after 2026. It is the intention to move on at pace now with that work to try and provide as much certainty as possible as early as possible, bearing in mind, of course, that we're often talking about people's jobs in this space, and we're always really mindful of that.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I would like to compliment the previous UK Conservative Government for the shared prosperity fund. It's delivered real results in Aberconwy and across Wales, reinforcing the Conservative Party's commitment to levelling up by investing directly in communities—free from Welsh bureaucracy, dithering and delay. The streamlined approach enabled key projects to progress swiftly, enhancing skills, tourism, digital innovation and local enterprise. Initiatives like Transforming Young Minds for Tomorrow are inspiring young people in engineering and the creative industries. Meanwhile, M-SParc, a digital and creative Conwy project that I recently visited, is fostering business growth, and the Llandudno bay promenade enhancement will rejuvenate our iconic seafront, cementing Llandudno as the queen of Welsh resorts. So, will the Cabinet Secretary acknowledge the number of millions of pounds that has come into Wales as a result of the UK Conservative Government's shared prosperity fund?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, it is upsetting to hear a Member of the Senedd celebrating a scheme that actually trampled over devolution and trampled over the rights of this Senedd. So, that is disappointing. But to say that the shared prosperity fund was hugely beneficial in financial terms just isn't correct, because when you consider that and also the impact on the support that's available to farmers, Wales is actually £1 billion worse off as a result. So, there could have been so much more achieved had the original pledge to make sure that we weren't a penny worse off or that our powers wouldn't have been reduced as a result of Brexit had been delivered.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

5. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to the impact of the UK Government's Employment Rights Bill on Wales? OQ62311

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Employment Rights Bill will modernise our employment rights, strengthen their enforcement and ensure that workers are treated with dignity and respect. We are proud to support the Bill and the broader Make Work Pay agenda.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Diolch. Llywydd, I should say, I'm a proud trade union member and I spent the best part of my working life advocating for a better deal at work, so I very much welcome the improvements to workers' rights that are in the Employment Rights Bill, and what that will bring. For far too long, workers have faced insecure working conditions, unfair practices and a system that is rigged in favour of bad bosses. Under the last UK Government, exploitation went unchecked, but now we have a chance to change that. But do you agree with me and many in the trade union movement that this legislation, although a significant and much welcome step forward, is just a start, and that the new deal for workers needs to be implemented in full, no ifs, no buts? This HeartUnions Week, and every week, we want to say that trade unions are there for us in times of challenge, and often redress power imbalances in the workplace. So, when it comes to bad bosses, unfair dismissal and bullying, which side are you on?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Hannah Blythyn, for that question. Presiding Officer, I think it's worth placing on record Hannah's commitment to promoting workers' rights, not just here in the Senedd and in the Government, but way before then, through all her career, and no doubt before that as well. I'm grateful to Hannah for raising the groundbreaking legislation of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, which she led through its legislative stages here in the Senedd. I see the Employment Rights Bill as a complementary part to our Act. Indeed, we have successfully secured helpful UK Government amendments in relation to outsourcing that will ensure smooth functioning with our social partnership and public procurement Act. As a proud trade union member myself, Presiding Officer, as a member of Unite the Union and Community Union, I will, of course, join Hannah in celebrating HeartUnions Week this week in particular, but every single week, and I look forward to issuing a written statement on that support today.

On the Member's broader point with the struggle for workers' rights, I see this as being journey. I see the Employment Rights Bill building on our groundbreaking social partnership and public procurement Act, but that is on a journey to strengthening workers' rights, and the journey doesn't end. This milestone, Presiding Officer, of the Employment Rights Bill, is the single biggest upgrade to workers' rights in a generation, but I will, as Hannah will, always stand shoulder to shoulder with the trade union movement on this journey as we seek to strengthen workers' rights always.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, a succession of surveys has shown that corporate confidence has plummeted in the wake of Rachel Reeves's budget, and the recruitment downturn is now worse than the aftermath of the global financial crisis. The latest StatsWales figures show that Wales already has lower employment rates and higher unemployment and economic activity rates than for the UK as a whole. Against this background, how can the UK Labour Government's Employment Rights Bill help rather than further hinder employment in Wales, when, according to the Confederation of British Industry's latest growth indicator, private sector firms expect another significant fall in activity, when the Institute of Directors's survey of members found that 57 per cent of businesses are less likely to hire new workers due to the Employment Rights Bill, and when the Federation of Small Businesses has warned that 92 per cent of small businesses are worried about the Employment Rights Bill, that 62 per cent will recruit fewer staff, that 56 per cent will cancel or scale down plans for investing and that 32 per cent will reduce headcount?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Mark Isherwood for his question. Presiding Officer, it's no surprise that the Conservatives don't support strengthening workers' rights—they haven't changed their opinion on that for a very long time. The Member points to a series of polls. He fails in his research to read the latest mega poll from the TUC, which was published on Monday, so let me read those figures to the Member: 72 per cent of people, including business owners, supporting banning zero-hour contracts; 74 per cent supporting statutory sick pay from day one; 73 per cent wanting protection from unfair dismissal from day one; and 74 per cent backing easier flexible working, Presiding Officer. The Employment Rights Bill, strengthening workers' rights, shouldn't be a divisive issue in this Chamber or in Westminster. It should be an issue that we should all get together around. I encourage the Member to read the significant poll: over 21,000 people showing overwhelming support for the Employment Rights Bill.

Stronger working protections will encourage a more productive workplace and business environment. The Tories, I'm afraid, are on the wrong side of history on this, as are Nigel Farage and Reform. This is the same argument they used with the minimum wage, it's the same argument they used to create the NHS. They want to, perhaps, do more research, look at those figures and change the tune when it comes to strengthening workers' rights.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

6. How is the Welsh Government supporting town-centre businesses in Mid and West Wales? OQ62287

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We've made available £125 million of Transforming Towns funding to secure the economic and social resilience of town centres, enabling job creation, developing green infrastructure, improving community facilities and access to services, and supporting local businesses.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much for that response. As we all know, these circumstances that are facing many of our smaller companies are very numerous. The cost of energy continues to be high, inflation pressures and so on, and I'm sure we would all agree that they need all the support that we can provide. I'm concerned that many town-centre businesses in Mid and West Wales are paying a very high price in business rates. Now, at the end of last year, Elin Jones and I wrote to the Valuation Office Agency to express concerns on the level of the business rates charged for businesses in Aberystwyth specifically.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Now, as far as Aberystwyth is concerned, Cabinet Secretary, the business rates being charged on some commercial properties there are higher than in the centre of Cardiff. Now, in some cases, the zone prices per square metre are almost three times higher on Aberystwyth's Great Darkgate Street than on Swansea's Kingsway. Now, do you agree with me that this seems frankly absurd? Now, further, locally owned business in Aberystwyth town centre are paying up to 10 times as much in business rates than out-of-town chain stores. So, my question is simple: what do you propose to do to address this imbalance?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

When it comes to setting rateable values of properties, they are independent of the Welsh Government and are set independently by the Valuation Office Agency. But if Cefin Campbell wouldn't mind writing to me on this particular issue, given those examples, then I'd be happy, of course, to take them up with the finance Minister, who has responsibility in this area, to explore them in a little bit more detail.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

One of the key reasons why people still go to town centres is to access banking services. But, unfortunately, in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, the news has recently broken that Lloyds Bank is to shut in Pembroke Dock and Halifax in Carmarthen. Now, recently I had the pleasure of meeting with Vince Malone, who's the sub-postmaster in Tenby, and Peter Robinson, a sub-postmaster from Pembroke Dock, highlighting that post offices continue to offer some of these key banking services, ensuring that high streets aren't banking deserts. So, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary, what work are you doing with sub-postmasters, with the Post Office, to try and ensure that more services, banking services specifically, are accessible via the Post Office, ensuring constituents can continue to access those services on our high streets?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question, and I also share the concern that I think all colleagues, to be fair, right across the Chamber, have in relation to bank closures across Wales. We've seen 380 of them since January 2015, and we expect only 179 bank and building societies to be opened by the end of 2025 in Wales. So, clearly, the role of the post office is absolutely crucial, in terms of allowing people to have that day-to-day banking facility. Much of this is not in the devolved space, but I'll be more than happy to have any conversations I can about supporting and promoting post offices as somewhere that people can do their banking, and exploring how post offices are looking to expand the level and range of support that they're able to offer in the community.

There are a range of other ways in which banks are trying to adapt. So, we've got the mobile banking vans, for example. There are a range of tech supports now that are available through banks. And community bankers as well are now available in various communities across Wales. So, there are ways in which banks are seeking to at least provide some kind of service in the local area after the closure of banks.

I'd also just highlight to colleagues as well that Link leads on assessing the need for new banking services, so automated teller machines, shared banking hubs, for example. They do that after every bank closure is announced, particularly where the last bank closes in any town, and so they can commission new services where required. So, if colleagues would want to ask Link to undertake an assessment of banks' banking services, they are able to do that as well.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh economy? OQ62286

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The EU is our most important trading partner. Figures vary, but we know Brexit has had a negative and damaging impact on Wales. The trade and co-operation agreement governs our relationship with the EU, but it cannot replace the market access that we had previously, and creates barriers for Welsh businesses.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer. Sixty per cent of Welsh trade is with the EU, so I wonder, Minister, if you agree with me that being part of the single market would benefit Welsh business, and it would be probably the single most factor in the short term that would generate economic growth in Wales and in the UK.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, it is absolutely the case that the economy is taking a big hit as a result of Brexit. The Office for Budget Responsibility's latest economic and fiscal outlook showed that the UK's long-run productivity is expected to be 4 per cent lower relative to remaining in the EU, with the volumes of exports and imports projected to be around 15 per cent lower in the long term. So, I think that there is a clear message there in terms of the impact that Brexit has had. I probably won't stray any further than that, as alluring as the invitation was, but I think I've been able to set out the negative consequences of Brexit on the economy.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

8. How is the Welsh Government supporting the establishment of community interest companies? OQ62308

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Our Social Business Wales service is on hand to provide specialist support, to offer information, guidance and support to social enterprises that wish to establish as a community interest company in Wales.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I'm grateful for that response. In addition to the service available through Social Business Wales, I wonder whether that could be expanded to include the Cymunedoli network, for example, that started in the north-west but has spread throughout Wales on the basis of the success of community interest companies.

More broadly than that, I've recently been involved in a conversation in Ammanford to create such a community interest company to revive the town and the surrounding areas. One of the things that struck me is that there is something missing at the moment in scrapping Communities First—. Of course, there was reference earlier to the Transforming Towns programme. That tends to focus on the physical, on physical regeneration. There is a gap in terms of supporting social enterprise. It's wonderful that the network exists. It needs to be extended and expanded. There may be an opportunity through the Arfor programme. I wonder if we could have a conversation, Minister, on this question, on the socio-cultural and entrepreneurial element in community development and how we promote this across the whole of Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'd be absolutely delighted to have that conversation as to how we can better support community interest companies beyond, I suppose, the capital support that we provide, so I'd be very happy to explore that, and also to explore it through the Social Business Wales consortium, which of course consists of Cwmpas, Social Firms Wales, UnLtd, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the Development Trusts Association. I know that, between them, they will certainly have some views on how we can better support in the way that's been described.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and today the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing and the Minister for Children and Social Care will be answering the questions on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary. The first question is from Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on patient waiting times at Glan Clwyd Hospital? OQ62297

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Performance at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd is not where I, the public, nor staff expect it to be, although improvements are being made. Welsh Government is working with the health board and has set clear expectations for improvement.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for that response, Minister. The independent body, Llais, published research this week in which it made 42 visits to hospitals, minor injury and medical assessment units, speaking to more than 700 people, and their conclusion was that urgent and emergency care in Wales is failing too many people and change is too slow. They've said precisely what I've consistently been saying in this Senedd, that, despite strategies, plans, commitments and projects, people aren't seeing the real improvements. Alyson Thomas, chief executive officer of Llais, said that

'Welsh Government and NHS Wales must act now to turn strategies and plans into meaningful change. Immediate improvements are essential to ease the current crisis, but we also need a clear programme of action to make sure emergency care is fit for the future.'

And Professor Medwin Hughes, chair of Llais, also said:

'Emergency care in Wales is at breaking point',

with people left in corridors for up to 24 hours. And from the most recent data available, the worst-performing A&E department against the 12-hour target is Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, with only 69 per cent of patients seen within the 12-hour target. This is not what we expect in a developed nation, and we know from the testimonies in this report that people feel stripped of their dignity when they visit an emergency department run by the direction of this Welsh Labour Government. So, will the Cabinet Secretary follow the recommendations of this report, scrap the useless plans and strategies and actually show clear leadership and delivery, fixing the Welsh Government's shameful record on A&E waiting times, particularly at Glan Clwyd Hospital, and commit to building north Denbighshire community hospital—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I'm going to—. I've been extremely generous with you this afternoon, in the previous session and now in this session too. So, answer the question that's just been asked.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

There were several questions there, Llywydd, but I will focus on the first question that Gareth Davies presented, which is on the response to, or the report from Llais. I understand that Llais has undertaken a significant engagement exercise and has listened to the public's view on urgent and emergency care in Wales, and we always value the valuable contribution that Llais provides in our NHS. We do recognise, of course, that improvements need to be made around the quality of emergency care departments, and a whole-system approach is necessary to support improvement for this through our six goals for emergency and urgent care programme.

I'm pleased that we already have actions in place to deliver the recommendations from Llais through our six goals programme, which focuses on delivering the right care in the right place first time. And this includes investments in enhanced community care services, virtual wards and urgent community response and integrated care pathways to reduce hospital admissions and improve patient flow. We've invested £200 million this year to help safely manage more people in the community to avoid ambulance transport and admission to hospital, and timely discharge. And we've also invested £5.4 million in emergency department waiting areas since 2022-23, which has seen enhancements to seating areas, with better information displays and more beverages, for example; it's a better patient experience whilst they're there.

Now, it is health boards, of course, who are responsible for ensuring sufficient capacity, both workforce and physical space, and that is provided to provide safe and quality care to people who need to access care in emergency departments. But we do recognise—of course we do—that there is more to improve patient experience and outcomes, and we will continue to work collaboratively with our health board colleagues to ensure that that improvement is delivered.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

At a meeting with Betsi Cadwaladr health board, they talked about approximately 1,000 beds being filled in hospitals with patients who need to move into social care. There's a particular pressure point at Glan Clwyd, and a huge need for investment at the Royal Alexandra to provide step-up, step-down provision. Denbighshire council have applied for the integrated care fund funding as match for that, and it's really welcome that Welsh Government do provide that funding as well for step-up, step-down care. I also understand that the cost of the project has trebled while Welsh Government's hands were tied during UK Government austerity over the 14 years; there was no money for that investment. But now we do have a new UK Government, working with Welsh Government, and there is capital funding finally. Would you agree that the Royal Alexandra could be a priority now, going forward, for this Government?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Yes, thank you, Carolyn Thomas, for that question. I know only too well how important the Royal Alexandra or the Denbighshire community hospital, however we want to refer to it, is to the people in that area, and I know that the health board is reviewing proposals for the Royal Alexandra Hospital site, in partnership with its local stakeholders. And those proposals, I understand, will include a minor injuries unit and intermediate care beds, which is the step-down, step-up facility you were talking about. And once the revised business case is submitted, it'll be considered and prioritised against the wide range of other funding requests received across NHS Wales.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

2. How is the Welsh Government ensuring access to abortion services? OQ62298

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Health boards are responsible for providing abortion services that are aligned with National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines and meet the needs of their population. We have made clear our expectation that health boards provide services that ensure access to evidence-based support for reproductive choices, including abortion.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. One in three women will have an abortion over the course of their lives. However, here in Wales, there is nowhere that provides surgical terminations beyond 16 weeks and nowhere that provides any type of abortion at all beyond 20 weeks. If a woman needs access to abortion services beyond this, up to the legal limit of 24 weeks, they must travel out of Wales for treatment, usually to Liverpool or London. Although abortions at later gestations account for only 2 per cent of all abortions, the women who require them are some of society’s most vulnerable. Often these women have complex backgrounds, they have substance abuse issues, they’re victims of rape, or they’re under the age of 16, to name but a few. Travel and accommodation for the two-day procedure is often paid for out of their own pocket or donated by the charity providing them care, because local health boards in Wales frequently deny upfront funding. This means in many cases where women want abortions, they can’t afford it and are forced to continue with unwanted pregnancy.

The women’s health cross-party group of which I’m a member has been asking for action on this from Welsh Government since 2018, and we still haven’t heard of a plan for providing later and surgical services in Wales, including the training of doctors to provide this specialised care. Now we finally have a women’s health plan for Wales, when will we see concrete action on this?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, Sioned Williams, for raising this question. I absolutely sympathise with women who have needed to travel outside of Wales for their difficulties they’ve experienced in accessing the care that they need. People in Wales should be able to access healthcare locally where possible, and, in the case of abortion services, this is a matter for the health boards to consider as part of offering service provision aligned with NICE guidelines, and one that meets the needs of their population. Having said that, as you know, I was at the women’s health cross-party group, which has the British Pregnancy Advisory Service provide the secretariat, and it was really good to be able to be there and discuss some of these issues as well.

So, you mentioned then about the women’s health plan. As you know, it is an ambitious 10-year plan. It has over 60 actions. Contraception, postnatal contraception and abortion care is a priority area in the plan and actions include increasing the availability of online reliable information on contraception choices and abortion care and how to access locally, and reviewing training and workforce to assure appropriate staff, delivery of long-acting reversible contraception and abortion care. What I can tell you today, though, is, as a result, I have to say, of you asking this question, I have asked for how quickly this can be done and if this can be moved up the agenda. So, I wanted to say that work to establish the specialist service in the area has commenced.

Welsh Government officials are working with the women’s health network and the Joint Commissioning Committee. The action to deliver services for complex and mid-trimester abortion care is currently a long-term action in the plan, but I would like to reassure Members that work on this action has already commenced and if we are able to deliver sooner than currently outlined then we certainly will do so. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson first of all, James Evans, to be answered by the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing. James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the theme of my questions today is I want to talk about fertility treatment across Wales, and, Minister, it has come to my attention that the eligibility criteria for NHS-funded fertility treatments in Wales vary significantly across different health boards, leading to a postcode lottery for those couples out there who are seeking fertility treatments. So, Minister, can you provide a comprehensive explanation for the inconsistencies and outline what steps the Government is taking to standardise the eligibility criteria to make sure that all people across Wales can get equitable access of care?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much, James Evans, for raising this topic today. I think it’s really important that we do talk about it. There are many people out there who are struggling with this. We know in Wales that one in six couples will struggle with infertility. We know that for around 30 per cent that will be down to issues with sperm, so I think that it is really important that we ensure that we are talking about this; it’s something that’s very meaningful to a lot of people. What I would say, though, in terms of the regulations, is it’s the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority that regulates. They regulate the NHS and the private sector on this. They are the ones then who will set out what treatments and procedures are available and, on top of that, they also set out, then, the four key areas, which are that NHS funding for fertility treatment varies depending on where you live, you’ll need to meet certain criteria to be eligible, you may not be able to choose your clinic if you’re NHS funded, and there are big differences in private treatment costs, so shop around. So, that’s the general advice that we have from the HFEA, and that is then what the JCC in Wales—the joint commissioning committee in Wales—uses to set out the provision that we have across Wales.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you for your answer, Minister. You did talk there about the number of treatment options available, and there are notable differences among the fertility treatments offered across those different health boards across Wales. And patients often lack the autonomy to, often, choose the preferred treatment centre that they’d like to go to, especially those people who want that treatment outside the designated health board. So, intracytoplasmic sperm injection, for example, isn’t offered in all fertility treatment centres across Wales. But, as I said, for those people with low sperm counts, that is the only way in which they can actually access fertility treatments, but some centres don’t do that. So, I’d just like to know from you what policies are being considered by the Welsh Government to harmonise the treatments offered to people across Wales? And do you think it’s time that we give people the autonomy to choose where they can go to access their treatment, because, sometimes, people can access that treatment in that health board to be told that it’s not available there, to have to go through the whole process again in another health area and another part of the country, which sometimes puts a lot of pressure on partners who are trying to get this vital treatment done?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Yes. Thank you so much, James Evans, for that follow-up question. So, as you are probably aware, everything that we cover in Wales and the policy that we have is set out in the specialised services commissioning policy for specialist fertility services. So, everything that you’ve asked about—it’s 29 pages—is in here. It’s very thorough and it does set a certain criteria.

I think it’s really important to emphasise, though, that this is a specialist service. It’s not seen as something that is provided across every health board. At the moment, as you said, we have the two clinics: one is in Cardiff and one is in Swansea. If you want to go through to that service to check your sperm count et cetera, then you can, actually, go online. There are four options for being able to book to be able to do that. So, I understand completely that there will be people out there where this is not ideal—I do. And this is something that I think is worth raising with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, because this is part of his portfolio, in terms of what we can do, going forward, but it would have to go down the specialist service route.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

One area that often does get overlooked in fertility treatments is male infertility issues. Despite significant studies that indicate that male factors actually contribute to 30 to 50 per cent of infertility cases in Wales, there does seem to be a lack of specific initiatives addressing male fertility within Wales. And one thing I’d like to touch on in your portfolio is that what we tend to find is that when males are diagnosed with infertility problems, they’re often left in the dark, with no support offered to them because most of the fertility treatments are focused towards the woman. But, actually, a lot of those men are left feeling frustrated, they feel shame, they feel anger, because, as I said, they don’t feel that they get the mental support needed to get them through that time in their life. So, I’d like to know, perhaps, as the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, what support your department can offer to those men who are suffering infertility issues, because, as I say, this is an area that is overlooked massively by the health sector, and I think the Senedd and the health bodies need to do more to support men who are having issues, because, as I said, they do make up over half the cases and they tend to be the ones forgotten about within the treatment journey.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Absolutely. Thank you. Again, the fact that we're talking about it today and raising this is always a huge step, and we've seen this across other parts of my portfolio with mental health as well.

I would say that the Wales Fertility Institute website is wonderful in terms of setting out exactly what the process is, and they do then have an option of being able to speak to a counsellor, and you can also ring up on the telephone line, as I said. You can book online as well. So, there absolutely shouldn't be any shame or stigma around this—it's not as uncommon as maybe people think.

I'd also just like to say as well, though, that we're always encouraging people to talk and this is something that people should talk about. And I think we have lots of pathways now for male mental health in particular, and they would certainly fall under that—under mental health. Thank you for raising this today, because this is something that I can go away with now as well and discuss with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, because you do raise something that I'm not sure has ever really been raised in the Chamber, or certainly not since I've been elected. It really is much more common than people realise, and it really does play a part in many things, like people's identity and the shame and feeling—. And, actually, in Wales, I would say that we have a pretty good offer when it comes to fertility support and when it comes to being able to access IVF and things. So, I would hope that this starts that journey. But it would be great to have a further conversation with you about this as well, James. Thank you very much.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. The questions to be answered by the Minister for Children and Social Care. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Unpaid carers are the unsung heroes of our health and social care system. Their work is worth upwards of £2 billion each year in economic terms alone, and that's before we factor in their wider contribution to the well-being of the nation. But, all too often, the immense value they bring to our society is not adequately reciprocated, as is reflected by the fact that homelessness, financial insecurity and mental health issues are especially prevalent amongst unpaid carers. The right to a personal needs assessment, as per the terms of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, is meant to be a legal safeguard for carers in this respect. But, given that only 6 per cent of Welsh carers were able to access such assessments during 2024, does the Minister agree that the Welsh Government is currently failing to deliver the intended aims of the legislation, and will you commit to developing a revised action and implementation plan to drastically improve its practical effectiveness?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank Mabon for that very important question? I think this was touched on last week, Sioned, in the debate that you tabled. This is something that I hear consistently from unpaid carers, talking to unpaid carers, and carers' organisations. You'll be aware of the Carers Trust 'Track the Act' report, which was really targeting that very specific area of carers assessments. It's one of the things, when I took over this particular role, that I was very keen to find out more about. I know, in my own constituency, through casework, that I speak to unpaid carers and hear that they're not being routinely offered carers assessments, and so on. And then they're very surprised when you have the conversation with them that tells them they've actually got a legal entitlement.

Now, what we have done already is we have commissioned the Association of Directors of Social Services to undertake a report for us, based on finding out what the impact of carers assessments are—or lack of carers' assessments. We're currently going through that report and looking at the recommendations, but it's a piece of work that is ongoing. It's a significant improvement area that I am determined we will see some results from. I was at the carers assembly earlier this week, and it came up there, and, as I say, in every arena that I'm in, and in every conversation I have with carers, this comes up.

So, from my point of view, I want to work on the results of the report that the Carers Trust have produced, 'Track the Act'. I want to work on the information that we've got from the ADSS review about carers assessments, and I want to ensure that we get a level of consistency that is right the way across Wales—that we don't enter into any kind of postcode lottery where some local authorities are offering this in a more routine fashion than others. And I've specifically asked a number of questions of my officials in regard to this so that we can get that kind of granular information about how a local authority identifies who their unpaid carers are—because we have to acknowledge that they're not all known to the local authority—and then what they do once they know that they have an unpaid carer in their area, and what that process for offering a carer assessment is, and how they work with that carer then to co-produce a carer action plan that delivers the kind of support that they need. That could be a whole range of support. It could be respite care for them and/or for the person they're caring for.

So, I want to reassure you, Mabon, that I know that we are nowhere near where we need to be with this, and this is very much a priority piece of work that I want to see significant improvements in.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thanks for that response, Minister. And, of course, at the heart of this problem is a chronic lack of capacity on the part of local authorities to conduct needs assessments. It's, of course, impacted by austerity, but it’s also coupled with local authority spending pressures of £559 million during the next financial year alone, forcing them to weigh up painful decisions on eye-watering council tax rises and further cuts to already dilapidated public services. A solution, of course, is to provide Wales with a fair funding settlement, based on the needs of our population. But, in the meantime, there needs to be greater strategic leadership on the part of the Welsh Government to make local government funding go further for social care, because the prolonged neglect of the sector has created a vicious cycle of intensifying demand on the front line, as was illustrated in Llais’s recent report on the sorry state of emergency care. So, has the Welsh Government made any consideration of standardising the frameworks for carers' needs assessments, and of introducing new national minimum standards for local authorities on their delivery of assessments, with ring-fenced funding within the revenue support grant to match?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Well, thank you, again, for that important question, and I think you make some interesting and valuable points, actually, around how local authorities can make their money go further. Now, I could stand here and talk to you about the uplift that is proposed in the budget, if you vote for it, of course, because, if we don’t get it through, they don’t get their additional funding. But it’s a serious point. Local authorities, within the draft budget, are set to receive a considerable uplift in their rate support grant from the Welsh Government this year, far in excess of what they had been expecting. And they will be expected to do an awful lot of things with that, and social care accounts for a huge amount of a local authority’s spend, as you know. I think it’s something in the region of 40 per cent of their spend is on social care.

So, there is a piece of work that we have to do about minimising the unnecessary costs for local government, whether it is around social care or any other area of funding. And one of the things that we are doing, and working with local authorities on—and the Cabinet Secretary for local government can say more about this—is looking to try to reduce the administrative burden on local authorities. And that’s partly what the national care and commissioning framework is about. It’s about making sure that we have consistency of approach around commissioning care and so on. And there is no reason why that shouldn’t also apply in having a consistent approach to how a carer assessment is undertaken, so that everybody is doing the same thing and working in the same way, and developing the same kind of response that they need for a carer.

Clearly, the outcomes will be different, but the framework within which that can be done, I think, is something that should and could be looked at. I’m very keen, whether it is social care or whether it’s in any other aspect of my portfolio, to look at areas of good practice and upscale. And if we can do that and find local authorities that are doing this in a way that is acceptable and delivers the outcomes that we need, and another authority is not, then I would want to ask the question why that’s not happening. So, I certainly think there is a piece of work we could do with local authority colleagues to drive that kind of consistent approach that you’re talking about.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thanks for that response, Minister, but compounding this issue is the acute funding pressures that will soon engulf service providers as a result of the imminent increase to employer national insurance contributions. Not only are the services provided directly through local authorities having to contend with a likely shortfall due to the Barnettisation of UK Treasury reimbursements to core public services—a fundamental unfairness to Wales, courtesy of the Welsh Government’s partners in power—the third sector and independent providers are facing additional costs that are truly existential in nature. In just one example of many, the Glan Rhos care home in Ynys Môn will need to contend with an extra £127,500 in annual costs from April, but pleas to exempt social care to the same extent as front-line NHS services have so far been unheeded. Minister, why do you think that your Labour colleagues at Westminster have not deemed the social care sector to be as worthy of protection against their budget decisions, and will you write to your UK Government counterpart to outline the full impact of national insurance rises on social care providers in Wales, including staffing capacity in particular?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Again, thank you for that question. And, in answering any questions on national insurance contributions, which I’ve been asked several times, I will always start by saying, of course, national insurance is not devolved. So, we are having to deal with the consequences of a decision that is made by a different Government. So, it is a reserved matter and it’s not a matter for us. I think, when we had the budget debate, the Cabinet Secretary for finance answered in some detail the questions around national insurance contributions and why he felt that we could do what we can do, and what we can’t do. He’s in regular communication with the UK Government about the impact of the national insurance contributions rise and what that will mean to partners in Wales, whether they are third sector, independent, social care providers, and so on.

Within our budget, what we have done is sought to improve the position of the third sector providers. We’ve seen a third sector funding agreement over three years, which is set out in the draft budget, which is comprising £25.5 million, and that’s an uplift of 7 per cent. And of course, although a number of third sector organisations and businesses are impacted by national insurance contributions, a lot will have that fully or partially offset by the increased employer allowance. But we do know that the pressures are going to be in the region of £253 million on those organisations that will see an increase in national insurance contributions.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Will you write, Minister?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

It is not for me to write to the UK Government on this matter, because it’s a Treasury matter, and that’s why my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language is having that correspondence and those ongoing conversations about how we can minimise the impact of that in those areas that have taken the biggest hits.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the recent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report into the emergency department at the Grange University Hospital? OQ62299

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

We welcome the HIW report and are pleased to note improvements made by the emergency department at the Grange University Hospital since its previous inspection. However, we do remain concerned about the impacts of poor hospital flow and we've been clear with the health board on our expectation for further improvement.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister. The issue of A&E issues at the Grange has been one of the many things I’ve had to receive since I’ve become a Member here, and it just keeps coming. I think the Llais report, which we read and heard about more today, shines a further light on the problems we’ve got. It’s very clear from the report that the staff are doing their very best, treating patients in a polite, professional and dignified manner, however, their work has been drastically hindered by the sheer number of patients at the department. One patient spoke out about despite having a suspected heart attack, they had to wait 12 hours before they decided to leave and drive to a different hospital. Another lady with a suspected heart attack had no observations over her 12-hour wait and never saw a member of staff over that time. This just isn’t acceptable, and these same stock lines that we tend to have out of the Government just won’t cut it anymore with our public. Minister, what action are you taking with the health board to ensure that things do not simply carry on at this unacceptable rate and that these stories, such as I’ve mentioned, are not repeated?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank Peter Fox for that supplementary question? Can I say at the outset that, absolutely, some of things that you’re talking about are not acceptable, and we clearly have more work to do? Nobody is sitting on their laurels here and pretending that this is a problem that we can’t fix. We do believe that this is a problem that we can fix, but we also know that it is going to take some considerable time. I think you recognise the hard work of the staff involved on the front line. And despite all the system pressures and the lack of hospital flow, I would say that people are still getting a good standard of service when they get it, and that’s a testament to the hard work and the commitment of the staff that work in our urgent and emergency care workforce.

Now, the health board has provided a comprehensive set of actions and plans to continue driving improvements, which have been accepted by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, and those include the appointment of six new emergency department consultants to implement the early rapid assessment of patients and support streaming to alternative pathways where that's appropriate. Unfortunately, a number of systemic challenges referenced in the inspection report are not unique to Aneurin Bevan, nor to Wales, in fact. And although we talk about it in the broader sense, those have a real impact and they were the kinds of things that you were talking about in your question. However, we have provided an additional £6 million in the six goals programme funding over the last two years, to drive some of these improvements in urgent and emergency care in Gwent, and the health board will be receiving a further £2.7 million this year. And following on from our 50-day winter initiative, where we always see the greatest pressures at this time of the year, we expect more directed focus from the Gwent region on enabling hospital flow, so that we can decongest the emergency department at the Grange and release ambulance capacity. But we will continue to monitor that through our escalation and intervention programme arrangements.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Of course, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales did find that overcrowding in waiting rooms continues to compromise patient privacy and dignity, but some issues occur before that as well. The lack of ambulances we have to take patients to the A&E at the Grange is damaging to patients' care. One of my constituents was told that she would have to wait so long for an ambulance that they’d instead offer to send a taxi. Now, she was a lone woman and she didn’t feel safe getting into a taxi in the middle of the night when she was in a vulnerable state. And later, when she was discharged from hospital, she was told she’d have to make her own way home in a nightie and a cardigan. It was freezing and there was nowhere to shelter except a freezing cold bus stop. Now, I’d ask: surely, you’d agree that this isn’t a sustainable way to treat patients? This A&E is so far away from so many of the communities that it serves, which you’ll know, it is near impossible for people to get there or to get home when they are in dire need of help. So, what can the Government do, please, to make sure that this isn’t an episode that is repeated again and again?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I absolutely, again, understand and agree with those concerns. We’re seeing this too often, and it’s not good enough and it absolutely needs to improve. But what I would say, before I say anything more about the ambulances, is just to talk about the waiting room at the Grange, because we have provided an additional £14 million to the Grange for capital investment to improve their waiting areas and the expansion of the waiting area in the emergency department. We expect the first phase of those improvements to be completed by May of this year, and the second phase in August of next year. That’s going to double the current wait capacity in that room from 38 to 75, and that’s also supporting an area dedicated to supporting e-triage as well. So, I hope that that will see an improvement in the patient experience of waiting in A&E.

But we do remain concerned about the level of ambulance response and patient handover, because this is where the delays occur. So, when your constituent is waiting for an ambulance to come, it’s because the ambulance is still waiting at the hospital to hand over the patient. So, we do remain concerned about that and the impact that that’s having on resources, which is clearly unacceptable. So, we’ve been clear with health boards about our expectation for the improvement of the timeliness of ambulance patient handovers, to ensure that crews are released to respond to those 999 calls in the community. And the NHS Wales Executive is now undertaking a programme of audits of organisations’ compliance with the recently published ambulance patient handover guidance for the remainder of 2024-25, with the initial focus on the most challenged sites. We’ll get a report back on that soon, and we’ll come back to the Senedd with the outcome of that review.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the role of the social care workforce partnership? OQ62291

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

The partnership is the first of its kind in the UK. It brings together Government, employers and unions collaboratively, developing models of best practice to support the independent social care sector. The longer term ambition is for employers to adopt these and create more consistent terms and conditions across the sector.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thanks for the update, Minister. I'm really pleased to see the Welsh Government strengthening its ongoing commitment to meaningful social partnership by establishing the social care workforce partnership. As you said, it's the first of its kind in the UK, bringing together Government, employers and trade unions, and it of course builds on the introduction of our manifesto promise of a real living wage for care workers, and demonstrates Welsh Labour's commitment to looking after workers who look after our most vulnerable citizens, and many of our nearest and dearest as well.

This week is HeartUnions Week, so it feels fitting for me to focus on one of the three priorities of the partnership for its first year: recognition agreements alongside trade union access. Minister, I'm sure you will agree with me that trade union access is something that we want to see spread far and wide in the sector, and that recognition agreements are key in not only supporting the workforce, but the sustainability of the sector as a whole.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I absolutely agree with the Member, of course, and that's why we've invested so much time and energy working with employers and trade union partners to get to this point. And from the work that both you and I did before coming into this place, we know that all the evidence shows, doesn't it, that unionised workplaces are better workplaces in terms of pay, conditions, health, safety and equality. We want that for all employees in the social care sector.

I'm very proud of the fact that when we look at specifically the work of the social care workforce partnership, the longer term ambition is for those agreed models to be adopted for all staff within scope, and to create more consistent terms and conditions across the social care sector in Wales. As you say, on those priority areas of work on recognition agreements, disciplinary and grievance procedures, and health and safety, including violence in the workplace, the work in the work streams is actually being led by trade union representatives. So, I think we will very much have the voice of the workforce there, driving these changes.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I've got to be honest, whilst, clearly, this scheme was well intentioned, I have several concerns. Never ever have I known my care home owners and those working in social care to be so demoralised as at the moment. They see this as another talking shop. First, the voluntary nature of the agreement lacks real incentive for independent employers, making it unclear how widely the proposed model of best practice will be adopted.

By embedding trade unions into the decision-making process, this initiative risks increasing bureaucracy and limiting employer flexibility, which will only discourage private investment into a sector that is already very demoralised. While addressing workforce issues is important, the policy's emphasis on Government intervention and a collectivist approach will yet again stifle innovation and efficiency. There's no financial support available, meaning any additional costs will likely fall on our already stretched providers, and this could potentially lead to higher care costs or reduced services.

Cabinet Secretary, at some stage, when are you going to engage with those in our social care workforce, those running our nursing, our elderly mentally infirm and our care homes? They want real support from this Welsh Labour Government; they don't want more talking shops. They need more financing. We've lost more beds in the care sector over the last three years than we've ever done in Wales. You're failing the social care sector, and it's time there was a turnaround in your attitude and approach. Diolch.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

That doesn't surprise me, that question and that attitude towards trying to work in partnership with the workforce and employers in the social care sector, and I am not going to stand here for one moment and apologise for the work that we are doing—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Well, you should.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

—with social care employers and trade unions, to work in partnership to deliver improvements in terms and conditions and workplace practices for some of the lowest paid people that we have in our workforce, looking after some of the most vulnerable people in our society. And, Janet, if you think that deregulation in that field to reduce costs—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I didn't say 'deregulation'. I said 'more funding'.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

—to reduce costs at the expense of employees' pay and trade union recognition, I just answered the question from Hannah Blythyn about what trade union workplaces provide. They provide better workplaces, they provide better terms and conditions, they provide better health and safety and they provide better workforces. And most employers that are engaging with us—. And we have not done this in isolation; this has been done with social care employers. When we work with social care employers in partnership, you will find that the employer and the workplace becomes a better place to be, both for the employer and the employee.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 5 [OQ62313] has been withdrawn. Question 6, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on what the Welsh Government is doing to support carers? OQ62296

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you. The recognition and support of unpaid carers is a key priority for this Government. Since 2022 we have allocated £42 million for the direct support of unpaid carers. Last month I announced £5.25 million to continue the short breaks scheme and the carers support fund for a further 12 months.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I want to welcome, particularly, that £5.25 million investment for the next 12 months to support the break scheme, because when people are caring for others 24/7, the one thing we don't want is for those people to be so pressurised that they become ill themselves, and the whole system breaks down. So, it is vital support that is needed to give those individuals a break and therefore to sustain the wider family. So, what are you doing to promote that increased funding to ensure that those who need to access it are, first of all, aware of it and, secondly, gaining from it?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Joyce. That's a very important question. Can I start by saying—and I should've said this, actually, in response to Mabon's questions earlier on—how much we value the work that unpaid carers do—the value of the work that they do to the economy, but more importantly to the people that they care for themselves? And as you say, we are expanding the short break scheme. The short break scheme, in and of itself, is something over and above what local authorities provide through the care assessments and respite care arrangements that they have. So, this is something that's in addition and can be tailored and used in a way that is very specific to the needs of that particular carer. So, we work with them to develop a short break for them that meets what they want, rather than a kind of one-size-fits-all type of approach.

So, what we've actually done is we've been funding the training of health and social care staff to ensure that they're aware of the needs of carers and their support and that they are raising awareness, individually, with carers, about the support that they can get from local authorities, but also the additional support that they can get through us from the short break scheme, and also from the carers support fund, which is a very important additional fund, which is about providing emergency payments to help carers with other household bills and things like repairs—you know, they might need a new washing machine or something along those lines. So, it is work that we are doing in conjunction with local authorities and the social care sector to make sure that the profile of what is available becomes the first go-to point—that somebody knows what is available and they offer it to that person that they're working with.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

7. How is the Welsh Government supporting women with endometriosis? OQ62304

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

The Welsh Government has funded dedicated endometriosis nurses within each health board across NHS Wales who are actively spending time with patients in clinics. We have also funded a dedicated website, Endometriosis Cymru, aimed at improving understanding of the condition and how it can affect the lives of those affected.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Minister. Jennifer Hughes-Cooke, a constituent of mine, runs a support group for women suffering with endometriosis. It has over 100 members and is continuing to grow. After meeting with her and hearing about the shortcomings in treatment in west Wales—the current specialist nurse is on maternity leave—I promised to raise this issue on the floor of the Senedd, write to the chief executive of Hywel Dda University Health Board and get her a meeting with the health board, which I'm happy to confirm I've done.

Given that it takes six months to train a specialist nurse, and with 10 per cent of women of reproductive age having the condition, how are you working to ensure that enough specialist nurses are trained, and how are you meeting the Welsh Government target of ensuring treatment within the first 36 weeks, when there are recorded cases well over that time period?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, Sam Kurtz, for raising this. I'm always grateful for, and I welcome, any questions to do with women's health, particularly endometriosis. As I was saying to Sioned Williams, I spoke at the women's health cross-party-group just last week—I think it was last week—and this was the main topic. Of all the things that we can discuss, endometriosis was the one thing that the women really wanted to talk about, because it is just so—. It is a chronic condition and it can be absolutely excruciating. So, thank you for raising this question.

To directly answer about the contingency arrangements that are being put in place by Hywel Dda University Health Bord, I have been assured that they have been put in place to cover that maternity leave through the gynaecological team. But we are doing everything that we can to ensure that people do have access to those nurse specialists. Health boards are responsible for delivering those high-quality gynaecological services, and it’s vital that they provide a robust and effective pathway.

We do recognise the issues that some women and girls are facing on a daily basis. This is why endometriosis is one of the eight priority areas in the women’s health plan that was published on 10 December. There are seven clearly defined actions that will lead to improvements in the experience of women accessing information, treatment and support for endometriosis across Wales.

I know that I mentioned at the beginning about the endometriosis website, but it really is absolutely superb, I think. It always comes back to education, so that people can feel empowered, so that they can advocate for themselves and others. Then, they can hold people to account as well. I am actually hoping, as we design now the national women’s health website, that we will base it on the Endometriosis Cymru one, because it really clearly says what the pathway is. Also, it gives you a checklist and a diary that you can keep of your symptoms, so that when you go to the GP, you can express exactly what you're going through.

But in terms of the endometriosis nurses, what women say to me is, when you meet one and you get to work with them and be under their support and care, it makes all the difference. What we have to do now—and it is one of the key action points in the women’s health plan—is look at it actually as a specialist service, which I mentioned in my answers to James Evans earlier on. It is about the joint commissioning committee now looking at providing this as a specialist service, so that it’s something that we can ensure women across Wales have access to, and that we take it into consideration on an all-Wales basis. So, we are very much looking at this, I want to assure all of the women out there. Diolch yn fawr.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

8. What action is being taken by the Welsh Government to address recruitment challenges in the Welsh NHS? OQ62293

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

We remain committed to investing in the sustainability of the NHS workforce. Through ongoing support for training new healthcare professionals, ethical international recruitment and enhanced recruitment strategies, the NHS workforce has grown by 10 per cent over the last three years.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer. I have people who have just completed their nursing degrees in north Wales at the moment who tell me that they cannot get a job. They cannot get a job, in spite of the fact that hundreds of nurses are coming in from overseas, largely from India, at present. And yet, the NHS seems to have many thousands of nursing vacancies that it keeps advertising, and is heavily reliant on agency nurses as well. That seems to me to be a peculiar state of affairs, and one that needs some urgent investigation by the Welsh Government to make sure that we're getting bang for the buck for taxpayers, given that these courses will have been funded by taxpayers. And can you also tell us what action the Welsh Government is taking in order to address the concerns that there are about the Cardiff University school of nursing closing and the impact that that might have on the nursing profession more widely, on patient safety and, indeed, on the public purse in the future?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, Darren Millar, for that question. To start with, the NHS in Wales now has more staff than at any point in its history. Today, the NHS directly employs almost 97,000 full-time-equivalent staff, and that’s a 21 per cent increase since before the pandemic. We are absolutely committed to delivering a sustainable NHS workforce equipped to handle the demands of the present, but also to meet the needs of the future. This is thanks to our commitment to continue investing in the current workforce and in training the NHS workforce of the future, and that’s around £294 million on training new members of the workforce.

In terms of the issues that your residents are having in the north of Wales, I would suggest writing to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about that specifically. But I don't want to conflate it with the other issue that you've raised, which I don't believe is an issue; I think it's actually a very good-news story: the all-Wales international recruitment programme has successfully recruited more than 1,000 internationally educated healthcare professionals into the NHS Wales workforce. [Interruption.] No, I would like to push back on that. It is actually—[Interruption.] The countries that we recruit from specifically overtrain. This is absolutely ethical. It's not only nurses that we recruit, it's also psychiatrists who want to be able to come and work here. It is not a bad news story. That is certainly not how it is seen in the NHS.

For 2024 and 2025, the Cabinet Secretary agreed to retain the £5 million centrally within the health and social care MEG for the nationally run programmes, to support the ethical international recruitment, and the aim was to continue to utilise the ethical once-for-Wales approach to meet future workforce planning demands across the NHS.

Coming on to the closure of the nursing courses potentially at Cardiff University, we do recognise that the higher education institutions are having to make difficult decisions around the future, and it is disappointing given the importance of ensuring a sustainable workforce for NHS Wales that nursing forms part of the consultation. We are working very closely with Health Education and Improvement Wales and we are confident that if, following the consultation, a decision is made to proceed with the closure of the nursing provision, alternative plans can be put in place to ensure continuation of provision at the same level through alternative providers in the same region. The final decision, of course, rests with Cardiff University, who I hope will very much listen in a social partnership way as they're consulting on this. And just to say that the Cabinet Secretary's officials will be meeting jointly with Cardiff University and HEIW over the coming weeks to receive an update on those discussions, and will subsequently be briefing the Cabinet Secretary.

I just wanted to point out as well that we also have a national retention programme. We are investing in mental health, we are supporting the international nurses and having well-being conversations. We're trying to support and retain the staff we currently have through a flexible working policy. We have the workforce race equality standard. We also support people through occupational health, workforce safety and speaking up safely. So, there is a tremendous amount of work that is happening within the workforce space within the NHS, but I would not attribute any of the issues that you may have raised with recruiting 1,000 people, ethically, internationally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 9, finally, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to eliminate corridor care in Welsh hospitals? OQ62301

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

The Welsh Government does not endorse the routine care or treatment of individuals in non-clinical or unsuitable environments. However, there are occasions when the NHS faces exceptional pressures, which can sometimes result in extended delays to patient admissions to hospital beds, and we are committed to addressing these challenges.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. Of course, corridor care is somewhat of a misnomer. It does not always happen in corridors and does not always involve care. There have been some truly shocking incidents in recent weeks, including a disabled toilet at a major accident and emergency department being used to take blood samples from a patient. I am sure you will agree that this unsanitary activity is just as unacceptable as leaving a patient on a trolley in any available space. When I was completing my residency, we had waiting bays for patients at every emergency department, in addition to the treatment bays. Now, waiting bays are observational wards where the patient would be kept for test results, onward treatment, and they would go to the theatre even from there. Cabinet Secretary, will you consider installing waiting bays at all major A&E departments, if only on a temporary basis, until you get to grips with patient flow through our hospitals?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you so much, Altaf Hussain, for raising that very important question. I would like to reiterate again that the Welsh Government does not endorse the routine care or treatment of individuals in non-clinical or unsuitable environments. That would absolutely include people having blood tests taken in a disabled toilet, and, if that is the case, I would really encourage you to please write to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care so that that can be looked into.

I also wanted to say that the Cabinet Secretary—and all of us, really—are meeting here with clinicians on a regular basis to understand first-hand experiences of urgent and emergency care delivery, including the issues presented by patients being cared for in areas that are not appropriate for their needs. Priorities set within the NHS Wales planning framework include the implementation of actions described in the optimal hospital flow framework, developed by the national six goals for urgent and emergency care programme, which my colleague Dawn Bowden has mentioned today, to ensure people who possess a clinical need for admission to hospital are discharged home when clinically ready, with the right support and without delay. We know that all of this is linked. A whole-system effort is required to enable optimal hospital flow, which will in turn decongest our emergency departments and release ambulance capacity.

I’d also like to say as well that Welsh Government has invested over £200 million in additional funding this year to support health boards and regional partnership boards to safely manage people more in the community, and avoid ambulance transport and admission to hospital. Also the additional funding and our national improvement programmes are actively helping to reduce pressure on the emergency departments, as you were asking. So, thank you very much. But I would really encourage you to please follow up with the Cabinet Secretary about that very worrying case that you described.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the two Ministers for those responses and that session.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No topical questions have been submitted under item 3.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, item 4 is next, the 90-second statements. And the first is from Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It was with sadness that we learnt of the death of Lord Keith Brookman recently. Keith had been ill for a long time, but he is remembered as the former general secretary and assistant general secretary of the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation trade union.

He was a steelworker. He was a steelworker in his soul. He was born and brought up in Ebbw Vale and began his long career in the industry in 1953. Having a period of national service in the RAF, he returned to the steel industry. He was the union's assistant general secretary for eight years, from 1985 to 1993, and then he was elected general secretary, and he remained in post until 1999.

It was no surprise to anyone that, when Keith became a member of the House of Lords, he assumed the title of Lord Brookman of Ebbw Vale. During his time in Parliament, he continued to take an active interest in Welsh affairs, and particularly the steel industry. Through the course of decades, he played an active role on a range of bodies, all of which were focused on steel, both at the domestic and international level. He was part of the European coal and steel committee, the International Metalworkers’ Federation and the European Metalworkers’ Federation. Away from the steel industry, he was also a governor of the Gwent College of Higher Education and a member of the Trades Union Congress educational advisory committee for Wales.

Perhaps the best tribute to him was paid by Neil Kinnock. Neil said that

‘Keith was the real thing—a total trade unionist and a dedicated democratic socialist. His roots ran deep and his ambitions for working class people were limitless. He had great generosity…he had high integrity…. He was also full of mischief, had a great sense of humour and terrific loyalty to his comrades.’

Thank you very much.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

The Dref Werdd social enterprise in the Ffestiniog area is a third sector organisation and is an important resource for the community and the area as a whole. Having been established over 10 years ago, working in the field of well-being and the environment, it's a hub providing support for local residents on all kinds of matters, from projects to help children and young people to grow vegetables, to providing advice and support to vulnerable people, and ensuring that older people are able to live full lives in the company of friends.

Dref Werdd has just received sponsorship funding from the National Lottery to create new projects in the area: £480,340 over three years. The new projects include working with young people in the area in Penrhyndeudraeth and Bro Ffestiniog, engaging with older people and creating sessions to bridge between the generations with the local school. Dref Werdd will put together programmes on coping with bereavement, men's mental health, community arts and empowering people to do more for themselves.

Having this investment rooted in the local community guarantees that it is the community itself that leads on decisions about what it needs, further enhancing the resilience of this post-industrial community. Good luck to Dref Werdd with its work.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Food

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, on food. And I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Diolch yn fawr. Last Friday, I visited a primary school that has all the ingredients for a community food strategy: a gardening club, a cookery club and a new headteacher who's keen to incorporate food into all aspects of the new curriculum, and it has four raised beds and a polytunnel as a demonstration project not just for the pupils, but for the families who visit every single day of the week. This combination has the potential to become the driver of a local community strategy to improve our diets that could be applied not just to that super-output area of deprivation, but to all primary schools, because they are the heart of a community from which the parent-teacher association, the food bank and the Christmas panto all emanate.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The food industry spends billions promoting our disastrous diets, and we have to use the power of community to fight back. On the ground, we already have the basis of a strategy through our community-focused schools. We just need to add one more ingredient, and that's the Food for Life accreditation that every school and every local authority should aspire to and our own caterers have, along with over 1.5 million British schools—sadly, not a single one in Wales at the moment. We just need to build back what was already there fleetingly in Flintshire and Ynys Môn.

There's no time to lose. The ever-escalating diabetes epidemic is already devouring 17 per cent of the NHS budget. The levels of malnutrition among hospital patients are prolonging patient stays, and the main driver of early death and chronic illness is not smoking but our obesogenic diets.

So, what do we need to do to help people make the right choices? The Welsh Government has invested £1 million via 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' each year to support a diabetes prevention programme, but what is the proportion being spent on primary intervention? I don't know. I'm struggling to find a single diabetes nurse operating out of a GP practice, even though type 2 diabetes now dominates the lives and deaths of a record-breaking one in five adults.

Who's leading the charge on preventing those with non-diabetic hypoglycaemia, otherwise known as pre diabetes, from developing that type 2 diabetes? Who's working with the whole household of anyone recently diagnosed with type 2 diabetes to completely change their diet and give them the chance of reversing what is a ghastly disease, with all the consequences that go with it? Dieticians tell me they're working with GPs but not in doctors' surgeries, so this is quite a considerable cause for concern, which we need to investigate further.

Moving on, I think we should welcome the investment in local food partnerships that's made by the Government, and the Welsh Government gave a further £1.7 million towards tackling food poverty on top of the £2.8 million disbursed by local authorities earlier this year. So far, we've spent £22 million on tackling food poverty since 2019. A huge coalition of the willing are taking baby steps towards getting rid of the indignity of food poverty that stalks the sixth largest economy in the world.

All the voluntary and community activity going on under the banner of the 22 local food partnerships is to be celebrated, a community effort that stops people going hungry and combats loneliness, but is not a national strategy for improving food resilience across the whole of Wales. That is what we urgently need before the NHS collapses under the weight of diet-related disease.

Let's broaden the base of people ready to grow veg, particularly in light of Professor Tim Lang's recent report for the National Preparedness Commission in case of another disaster like COVID. Local authority planning departments, he recommends, need to be mandated to make food-growing land for community food, and a right to grow should be given legislative backing. But I appreciate growing your own is not for everybody. All households need to be able to access locally-sourced nourishing food to reduce our reliance on a handful of very large retailers, who, all too often, park their tanks just outside a town and immediately cause all the local food shops to close, and therefore there's nothing for anybody who needs to walk to get their food. So, the community food strategy must map these food deserts, along with a plan to stimulate the availability of fresh food for all. Solutions will vary according to geography, but what service could be more important than the availability of food within pram-pushing distance?

So, lastly, I just want to talk about the power of public procurement to improve the food served to pupils, patients and people living in care. Kevin Morgan's latest book, Serving the Public, highlights an important nutrition study of how adequate nutrition can reduce anti-social behaviour. It was a double-blind placebo-controlled experiment on 231 young prisoners in a young offender institution in Aylesbury. It gave half the young people nutritious food supplements while the other half received the placebo. Those who ate the nutritious food committed a quarter less offences than the placebo control group, and, amongst the most violent offenders, it was 37 per cent. That is an amazing result. And despite Sir David Ramsbotham, the most important HMI prison inspector in my career, co-authoring an article, 'Crime and Nourishment', in the Prison Service Journal in 2009, this lightbulb moment was simply ignored by the prisons and every other procurer of public service catering. It remains an important message, not just for the much troubled HMP Bridgend and the rest of the prison service—not devolved—but for any secondary school leader managing adolescent young people whose hormones are roaring. I know the Cabinet Secretary for Education takes the behaviour challenge very seriously, and has quite rightly resisted any challenge to make schools into fortresses, and I do hope the Aylesbury research will be dusted down for sharing at the summit with school leaders in May, and that Estyn and Bangor University will factor food nutrition into their work. Some important reflections, indeed, for our public health approach to gender-based violence as well.

But, leaving pupils and prisoners on one side, what about the other two P's, namely patients and pensioners, both highly relevant to what goes on in a hospital? There have been many attempts to improve hospital food, and the main argument for resisting change is that hospitals are essentially clinical treatment sites, rather than health promotion sites. The low status attached to food nutrition by both hospital management and the clinical profession means that malnourished patients have longer stays in hospital and poorer recovery rates. Age Concern has highlighted this about malnutrition and that those malnourished patients are three times as likely to develop complications during surgery, and have a higher mortality rate than well-fed patients. What is the Welsh NHS doing to even look after its own staff—[Interruption.]—particularly—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Jenny, can you take an intervention from Altaf?

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Yes.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

You're absolutely right about the hospitals and what is happening at present. Previously, we used to have a dietician, and the dietician would go to each and every patient in the morning, and they would give them the details about their diet, and they would see what diet is suitable for what. I had surgery on my abdomen, and I was given lentils—you know, a full plate. My God, it was terrible. So, I agree with you.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I think dieticians do exist in hospitals; I think they're not in evidence as much as they should be in primary care.

On the positive side, I was pleased to hear that Cardiff and Vale University Health Board is trialling a well-being Wednesday, charging £3.50 to their staff for a freshly cooked meal plus a piece of fruit. This is a very important intervention, because it will lower absenteeism. But it's not every day, and it's not every health board. There are two health boards who don't have any dietary focus on their staff at all in the hospital.

The gold standard has to be freshly produced meals in refrigerated lockers, which Jack Sargeant and I saw in November at the Well-Fed launch in Shotton. This is a really good example of best practice, which challenges health boards to ensure that the midwife who's delivering a baby at 2 o'clock in the morning can have—. In that 20-minutes break before she has to deliver the baby, she's able to go and get the food out of the locker, put it in the microwave, and eat a nutritious meal before she has to do another very challenging stint. So, I rest my case at the moment; I want to hear what everybody else has to say.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

I'm very pleased to be co-sponsoring this debate, as, arguably, there is nothing more important than the future health of our nation and the generations of our children to come, and the food we eat and the diets we follow will be fundamental in shaping the health of our country. It's disappointing that there aren't more Members in the Chamber today to take part in this debate. The endeavour to improve the health and well-being of our nation has to transcend political differences and parliamentary terms. It is something so important that it has to be anchored in any future government’s work programme as this will be a long journey of change.

We don’t need data to show that things are getting worse. It’s clearly evident all around us. We see growing levels of obesity across our population and, worryingly, a significant rise in childhood obesity leading to serious health-related issues, such as childhood diabetes. What will the future hold for many of our young people if we don’t try to change societal direction? Sadly, the dominance of processed and ultra-processed food in our diets has crept up on us and now we’re seeing the profound impact on the health and well-being of our people. It has become embedded into many families’ daily norm, as it’s often cheap, it’s convenient and, in many cases, it’s addictive. The dilemma, then, is how do we start to nudge families to change their eating habits? We know that it is the poorest of our communities who are disproportionately affected by diet-related illness, and surely we have to try and help them where we can.

Countries across the world are taking this whole issue seriously, but I fear that Wales is being left behind through, perhaps, a lack of urgency and decisiveness. That said, there are great examples of innovative practice and initiatives taking place, aimed at making a difference. However, these things on their own, even the big initiatives, like the roll-out of universal free school meals, cannot solve the problem. There has to be something far bigger. I truly believe that the Government has to adopt an overarching, holistic and strategic approach to the food system here in Wales—something that all food policy aligns to. We can see this sort of approach in Scotland with their good food nation plan, in England we see the national food strategy, and in Northern Ireland they have their food strategy framework. All of these directions are aiming to start to address the fundamentals needed for good food systems and policy that can start to address the key points that this debate raises.

It has been almost two years since we debated the food Bill, something I, and many people across Wales, felt could put Wales ahead of the game. I could make political points about why the Bill failed, but, as I said, this topic must transcend politics, as it’s too important. What I was advocating in the food Bill was a framework not dissimilar to those I just referenced—a framework that would enable a whole-system approach for Wales, and one that advocated for sustainable food production, a need for food security and the use of quality local food to address societal issues such as we’re considering today. My Bill fell, but the contents of it remain absolutely key and relevant if we are to address the needs of future generations. Stakeholders from across Wales, including academics, health boards, local authorities, farming unions, environmentalists and many more were united around the need for a joined-up approach for the food system in Wales. That unity of feeling demonstrated just how important the issue of food policy is here in Wales.

Members, I encourage you, as Jenny pointed out, to read the recently published book by renowned Welsh academic, Professor Kevin Morgan—an expert on food policy. His book, as we’ve seen, Serving the Public: The good food revolution in schools, hospitals and prisons, guides us to what is needed for a good food revolution in our schools, hospitals and prisons. The case it makes for a joined-up food system with joined-up policies is compelling, and our Government must take heed. There needs to be an all-Wales food strategy, anchored in legislation or regulation, that reflects a whole-system approach—one that connects the different policy areas, including health, well-being, agriculture, sustainability and economic growth. Cabinet Secretary, if we really want to improve the health of our children and that of future generations, we have to act now and lay the foundations of change. I ask Members to support our recommendations.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

We're here, of course, not just to discuss the importance of food security, but also to discuss the need to go beyond that, to build real food resilience here in Wales. This isn't an abstract debate—food is a fundamental issues that affects each and every one of us every day. It impacts our health, our communities, our economy and the environment that we live in. But, although we have a proud heritage of food production in Wales, too many people in this country are struggling to access fresh food, healthy food and affordable food. This debate is about ensuring that the food system in Wales works for everyone, not just the major corporations or those who can afford to buy food of a particular quality, but for every family, for every community, and also for every farmer and food producer in the country too.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Now, there's a myth that Wales is some sort of food-secure nation. Well, we do produce a lot of food, don't we, but the reality is that our food system is deeply unbalanced. There's reference to fruit and vegetables in the motion before us, where we know that we're only producing the equivalent of just a quarter of a portion per person, per day at the minute, which is woefully inadequate. It's clear that we need to take steps to close this production gap. We need to be growing more of our own food, in a way that strengthens our rural economy and makes us more resilient to external shocks. One of the most effective ways, of course, to improve Wales's food resilience is by supporting local food production. If we shorten our supply chains, we also cut emissions, we create jobs and, therefore, support our rural communities.

We have an opportunity here, of course, to make greater use of public procurement as a tool to strengthen our food system—and, heaven knows, we've been talking about this since I was here in 2011, and, I'm sure, before then. But there is still so much more that we can do—our schools, our hospitals, our care homes and public sector institutions should be prioritising Welsh produce. Public money should be supporting Welsh farmers, Welsh fishers and food producers. Community food initiatives as well have an important role to play, from local food partnerships to community-supported agriculture schemes. There are examples out there, but they need to become more common and not projects that we like to point at as something that maybe one day will become more of a norm.

So, it's time to move beyond a narrow focus, I believe, on food security and to start talking seriously about food resilience, because food security is about making sure food is available, of course, but it doesn't address deeper vulnerabilities. We live in a world, as we know, of growing instability, don't we—climate change, conflict, pandemics, economic uncertainty. All of these impact our ability to access food. So, food resilience means ensuring that Wales can withstand these shocks. It means making sure that our food system isn't just reliant on long, fragile supply chains. Now, Professor Tim Lang, who's the emeritus professor of food policy at the University of London, has written extensively about this. He pointed out to me recently that there are around 20 pinch-points in the global supply chain around the world. Four or five of those are at war at the minute. Now, you add climatic events and, all of a sudden, we will very much be feeling the difference in terms of food supply.

So, we need a strategic plan that takes a whole-system approach, involving farmers, fishers, businesses, local authorities and communities. That's why Plaid Cymru is calling for the creation of civil food resilience committees, aligned with Wales's four regional resilience forums. These committees would be responsible for developing local and regional food resilience plans, ensuring that Wales is better placed for food shocks. We need to make sure that our public services, our foodbanks as well, our local food networks, are equipped to deal with supply disruptions. We need to support farmers in adapting to climate change while maintaining food production. We need to increase investment, as we all acknowledge, I'm sure, in Welsh horticulture and local—[Interruption.] I've got 30 seconds left, so—

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

A well-timed intervention.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, not one of yours. [Laughter.]

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm with you on your analysis 100 per cent, but I can't help thinking, if the answer is more committees, then perhaps we're asking the wrong question.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Maybe 'committee' might not be the right word, because that does suggest people sat in a room, sitting around a table, and we're all very familiar with that kind of approach. But we do—[Interruption.] No, no; what did somebody once say: 'It's not a u-turn, we're still moving forward, but in another direction'? [Laughter.]

It's about bringing—. Foodbanks have a role to play, I believe. Now, foodbanks are playing a very important role for a specific purpose, but what happens if the shelves are empty in your local supermarket? Can you utilise that infrastructure in a different way that provides us the resilience that maybe we need? I hear your point, and I agree, and maybe I should have couched it in a different way.

So, we need to increase support for horticulture, as we all recognise, and local food processing infrastructure as well. The sustainable farming scheme, of course, needs to play its part to support the change in land use, but in a way that doesn’t undermine our capacity to produce food. And that’s why I’m urging the Welsh Government, really, to take a proactive approach, because reacting when crises hit is very often too late, isn’t it? So, we need to put the structures in place now to make sure that Wales can weather any future food challenges. Well, I say ‘any’ future food challenges—the future food challenges that we know are coming.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I think the Senedd is at its best when it comes together on issues like this, on a cross-party basis, and finds agreement, and I hope the Government, in reflecting on today’s debate, will recognise that this is a Venn diagram of agreement that we have today. And today is another historic moment, for a very important reason. It must surely be the first time that three Members speaking in a debate all have a birthday on the same day, and I think that shouldn’t pass without noting.

I would like to talk a little bit about how we use the food system to leverage broader opportunities for Wales because I do think that our food system and its development is a key part of the foundational economy thinking—how do we harness our spending on well-being critical goods and services, and also benefit grounded local firms. Only about 6 per cent of the fruit and veg used by the Welsh public sector is made up of products grown in Wales. We’re buying and transporting food from other countries, and schoolchildren and hospital patients are routinely eating apples from France, tomatoes from Spain and courgettes from Chile. Now, what’s stopping us from supporting Welsh farmers and buying local? Well, we don’t grow enough veg for a start, so there’s an opportunity for farmers to embrace horticulture to create new sources of income. We hear a lot about lamb, not enough about veg.

There’s also a challenge of what’s called 'aggregating demand'. The fresh local produce for schools feasibility study, commissioned by the Vale of Glamorgan Council, showed that buyers find it hard to deal directly with growers of horticultural produce, and co-ordinating with multiple different producers, washing and peeling the veg, bagging it, arranging for the distribution to the school kitchen is just too difficult. And it highlighted the potential cost benefit of an investment in a central facility to wash, peel and distribute the veg to the standards required by customers, and investment in technology and automation could allow local suppliers to compete with the big international firms who currently dominate. There’s good work being done by the charity Food Sense Wales to look at how to scale up local supplies. Also, the Welsh Veg in Schools project, which benefited, I’m pleased to say, from the Welsh Government’s Backing Local Firms fund, is working with growers across three local authority areas, and supported by co-ordinators from the local food partnerships in Cardiff, Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire, and they’re now onto the next stage and working with growers, including the wholesaler, Castell Howell, to try and address this disconnect between supply and demand for locally grown horticulture produce.

Now, we should use the public sector as an anchor client for this important development, but we should also remember that when you add together the value of all the public food procurement, it’s the equivalent of the annual turnover of just one large supermarket store. So, what we really need to do is influence the private sector. And there’s a really promising example in Hirwaun, where Authentic Curries and World Foods are developing commercial products using local food, and they’re the leading providers of ready meals for retailers and caterers.

Now, chard and kale may not be on the top of your shopping list—they may be on Jenny Rathbone’s shopping list; I have no doubt that they are, but they’re not on mine—but they are both excellent sources of nutrients and can be grown very successfully in Wales. But how do we get them onto menus and into products that people will buy to create viable levels of demand? Well, the new programme of product development at the Authentic Curry Company is showing this can be done for both public and private sector retail markets. They’ve shown that you can add value and increase the shelf life of vegetables through further processing and cooking to multiportion meals. Welsh tomato sauce pizza bases, cauliflower cheese, and Welsh beef Bolognese have already been successfully developed, and this highlights a route to market where Welsh produce can form the basis of menus that are healthy, cost-effective and climate friendly.

So, how do we scale this up? Well, we need products that customers want to eat. We need a regional infrastructure that develops the supply chain—that’s facilities for collections, distribution and storage. We need technology and innovation for economies of scale. We need to aggregate demand and we need an approach to public procurement that recognises the social value of supporting a sustainable food system. That involves investing in a professional workforce and building confidence.

Let me end, Dirprwy Lywydd, on a note of optimism. There are some good people doing good things. People like Professor Kevin Morgan—and I would heartily endorse Jenny Rathbone’s recommendation of his new book, which I was pleased to see a number of us were present at that launch of—and others like Katie Palmer, Simon Wright, Edward Morgan, and many others in the Welsh good food movement, are doing outstanding work.

Our universal free-school-meals policy is an incredible foundation stone, and we need to leverage it, we need to use it. So, let’s do that. Let’s put booster rockets under our community food strategy, let’s look at Scotland’s Good Food Nation (Scotland) Act 2022, let’s encourage the farming community to embrace this opportunity, and let’s harness the networks of good people doing good things in the good food movement. This is the well-being and future generations thinking in action, and there is cross-party support for it, so let’s get behind it and do something about it.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And happy birthday. Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch. I would like to thank the Member for bringing this proposal forward. When I was younger, I remember we ate what was available and in season, bought locally from the market or what was grown in my grandfather’s garden. Council houses post war had large gardens so that they could grow their own vegetables in them. I know the Welsh Government’s Local Places for Nature funding programme has been invaluable in creating 800 food-growing sites and 700 community orchards, which has really helped with mental health and well-being as well. I hope that funding will continue.

FlintShare is a community-run social enterprise based in Flintshire, which provides members with the opportunity to help produce their own food. It’s a good way of growing and sharing home-grown produce and, as I said, it helps with that bonding and community well-being.

Learning to cook food should be part of education. It takes time. Just the basics of peeling and preparing vegetables is a skill that needs to be learnt. It’s not easy. But it can become second nature and can be speedy once you get used to it. I think that developing tastes and overcoming food barriers is also an issue for many people. Many children don’t like green vegetables, for example, like kale, as you mentioned. You’ve got to develop the tastebuds.

I remember when the children were small, I joined a local co-operative where you got a bag of seasonal vegetables for £3 a week, as it was then, not knowing what you were getting. It was a bit like Ready Steady Cook. It made me learn about preparing vegetables I’d never even dreamt of using before. But fortunately, by this time, my children had grown out of being fussy thanks to a star chart that I had brought into the kitchen. Eventually, they developed their palates, and they overcame eating those vegetables that each one didn’t like. And it really worked. My husband didn’t change, but there you go.

I recently visited Well-Fed in Flintshire, a social enterprise, like Jenny Rathbone mentioned, set up by Flintshire council, ClwydAlyn and Can Cook in 2019. They provide well-balanced healthier meals, pre-cooked, ready to slow cook—slow cookers are a great invention, aren’t they? They’re cheap. You can just put anything in. You’ve fresh food. Simple. It makes such a difference. They aim to make fresh and healthy food affordable for all, particularly as the cost-of-living crisis continues. Their mission is to ensure, despite challenges, that people can still enjoy fresh meals to give them strength and sustenance.

They’ve acquired two mobile shop vans, which I think is a really good initiative. They go across north Wales and provide an ample supply of fresh fruit and veg, sold individually for people wanting to buy small amounts. People don’t generally like to waste food and they’re worried about buying packs of vegetables and wasting them if they live on their own. This way, they can go and buy one or two apples, pears, bananas, and they can see the veg they’re buying. They’re also provided with menus and recipes as to how to use them, which is great.

I went to see a production at Theatr Clwyd called How to Feed a Town, which was a collaboration with Well-Fed, Flintshire council and the Arts Council of Wales. The production presents an intimate portrayal of community spirit, change, togetherness and the struggle against food poverty in Flintshire and north Wales. It was incredible how all the conversations and comments about supporting people with welfare, which I so often hear, were captured into the storytelling. Also, the importance of community and helping each other through small deeds, such as sharing food and cooking lessons. I heard of one young woman with a child who wasn’t sure how to cook, but her neighbour who was lonely helped to teach her, and it was so hopeful because that one to one and overcoming your doubts really made a difference, and helped with childcare as well. So, those early interventions really break that cycle.

I think we need a whole-Government approach going forward, looking at what’s needed, supply from food producers with a diversity from monocultures, growing more veg and fruit, as has been mentioned previously, and we need education as well for everybody. Thank you.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I think it’s no exaggeration to say that obesity is an absolute national emergency and it’s not a national emergency that is an act of God; it’s an act of capitalism. It’s something that has been almost imposed upon a post-war generation or certainly in the last 30 or 40 years. When I look back at childhood photographs of holidays in Cornwall or Paignton or even Prestatyn and Rhyl, I don’t see beaches full of obese people in the 1970s; that’s not what I see. And when you travel in different parts of the world, when you visit more wealthy communities, you don’t see beaches full of people suffering from obesity. Obesity is a disease, which is prevalent in poor communities and is a consequence not of individual choices, but the limitation of choices by an industry that’s only appetite is for profit, and not for the good and well-being of the people it is supposed to serve.

And, as a Government and as a Parliament—. I do agree very much with what Lee Waters said earlier about there being widespread agreement on this on all sides of the Chamber. I think we can agree on the problem, so how then do we find a solution? And for me, when I look at the food industry, food in Wales, I see a number of different elements to it. I’m not convinced that any single element of it works and I’m not convinced that the whole works at all. If we listen and think about the debates that we’ve had in this Chamber, not simply on food itself, but on other aspects of the food chain, then all of us in different ways have accepted that there is failure on every level at every element.

I’ve heard Peter Fox make some impassioned speeches about the issues facing the farming community, and he’s very right. But if the farming community cannot produce the food, then what then is the purpose and point of Government and public interventions? What are we seeking to achieve? Because through this period of time, when the community producing our food is becoming poorer and where farms are becoming less sustainable, we’ve also seen the environment not being protected either. So, not only are we not producing the food we need, not only are we not sustaining the community that is not producing the food we need, but in not producing the food we need we’re not taking care of the environment either. This is not a system that is working in any way.

And then, when we look at the distribution and consumption of food, and the points that have already been made have been well made by all Members on all sides, but what do we see in our towns and what do we see in our cities? We don’t see independent greengrocers and retailers and butchers, or even fishmongers, as we used to; what we see is a food desert with a retail environment that is entirely dominated by major supermarkets. And we all know that the supermarkets’ primary motive is to squeeze profit at every part of the supply chain. And they don't really give a damn about the consequences of that, whether it's the fishing industry that Llŷr talked about, whether it's the farming industry that Peter has spoken about, or whether it's the consumers that have been spoken about by others.

So, what do we do? I've seen one example of a Government getting to grips with this, I think, and that is Origin Green, across the water, in Ireland. And I think there is a kernel of an idea and a concept and a potential for change there, by unifying production through to distribution, through to retail, through to consumption, and understanding the different elements of it, investing in different parts of it, but seeing it as a whole and not as individual parts. I believe there is an opportunity there. I believe it, and I would like to see the Welsh Government learning more lessons from that and trying to apply those lessons to us. Because my concern is that there will be more generations born and growing up into obesity, and others have described the issues that that causes for us.

But we must, as a Parliament and as a Government, put food centre stage. When I was standing for election and for selection back in 2009 in Blaenau Gwent, I spoke then about the economic crisis facing the community, facing the borough; and, of course, there was. But if I was standing for the first time again today, I would also talk about the public health emergency that is facing the borough. Because I believe now that the public health emergency facing us in Blaenau Gwent is greater, potentially, than the economic crisis facing us. And the Government has a responsibility to act, to address that, and all of us, wherever we sit in this Chamber, have a responsibility to contribute towards that.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I will take up that challenge, that opportunity, to respond to the need to address the wide food challenges that we've heard about today, that all Members have spoken about with great passion and with great expertise and local knowledge as well. We've heard about the need for widespread good, nutritious, wholesome food in every part of Wales, in every society, and not least in disadvantaged areas because of the issue of social justice and how we make that happen. We've talked about the need for a strategic approach, we've heard about the need for resilience, which I will turn to as well—all these matters. The massive potential, we've heard about, to actually produce more within Wales and to put the rocket boosters underneath the to-do list, and I will address some of these issues.

We've talked about the incredible potential within community growing and also that education piece about it as well. And I should say, by the way, the Irranca side of my family is happy to come forward with one of our favourite recipes with kale and lemon pasta. It is genuinely delicious. It is one of my top three or four; it is, genuinely. And, by the way, the kale that we get comes from a local—very similar to the ones you were describing—a local food hub that deals with surplus waste from retailers. It comes there and you have cheap—not free, but cheap—produce in bags. It's very cheap indeed, and it avoids it going to waste as well. So, really, really excellent.

We've heard also about market failure and the role of corporates in this—points very well made—and the impact on our diet and health. But let me thank all the Members who have contributed today, and I think we're on a joined-up mission here to try and transform the way we look at food and the way that food impacts on our lives.

I will try to respond to as many of the points as possible here. One of the aspects in the motion is the need to bring forward a community food strategy. Very happy to say that work on the strategy has been well under way, and an enormous amount has been done. We will publish the strategy as soon as possible, and I think it will bring a lot of reassurance and address many of the points that have been raised today—and I will touch on some of those in a moment.

We're very aware within Government that food and diet are crucial to improving people's well-being and to achieve this healthier Wales. And that's why, actually, within the community food strategy, we've done a lot of work. Extensive research has gone into it already, extensive stakeholder engagement, systems-mapping exercises as well, targeted stakeholder engagement and an expert focus group, again. And it's designed to address those issues of food insecurity and health, and also procurement and other matters that have been raised today. And I and the Cabinet Secretary—because this is a cross-cutting issue right across Government—but I and the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for social justice were very pleased to have secured a cross-Government funding commitment for the next financial year to actually further—further—the network of local food partnerships in every—every—single local authority in Wales. This will allow those local authorities to deliver the actions described by many Members today, to support areas in such things as community growing, community food hubs, supporting local supply chains and helping them develop and flourish as well. And the investment in these local food partnerships—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Will the Member take the intervention?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed, I will give way.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'm looking forward to seeing what the community food strategy will be like. I have reservations it might be tokenistic to this bigger picture—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

No, no.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Could you give us some reassurance—will it have the same sort of holistic approach that we're seeing with the Scottish 'National Good Food Nation Plan', or is it only pulling together certain bits, not taking the whole big picture?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Peter, thanks for that intervention. I really respect the work you did in trying to bring your private Member's Bill together, which has informed some of our development of the community food strategy, but also wider elements that we're doing as well. I agree with you, what we need is a holistic approach to food that deals with all of the matters that have been raised today, in a great variety, because of the importance of food. I think you will be pleased with what comes forward in the community food strategy. What we're not trying to do is replicate what happens in Scotland, or Ireland, or England, or wherever, because we already have significant streams of work in place, but we do need to pull them together within that strategic approach.

The investment within the local food partnerships, just to say, will also inspire new supply chain opportunities for locally based farmers and local businesses. It's already being demonstrated through initiatives such as the Food Systems Development Project delivered by Bwyd Sir Gâr Food, which supports communities to develop horticultural businesses and to access key public sector markets. We'll continue to work with community redistribution hubs like FareShare and others to ensure that surplus food reaches those who need it and avoids it going to waste, and we will work in close collaboration with the future generations commissioner, supporting public bodies and public services boards to embed food as a focus area within local-level planning and delivery. I really welcome the focus of the commissioner's seven-year strategy, 'Cymru Can', on food activities and work streams already under way to encourage public bodies across Wales to include food in their well-being plans. The point that was raised: we need to see this not just for patients, but for staff. We need to see this in all aspects of our public bodies. Our work will complement and reinforce this.

Public sector food procurement is a very strong lever to achieve wider value and well-being goals—well-being. So, we're working to develop those local supply chains, develop Welsh supply chains. This has, by the way, resulted already in an increase in Welsh products such as yoghurt—not just beef, lamb and so on—but yoghurt, milk and other products being supplied into our schools, into the NHS in Wales through our wider wholesaler networks. Castell Howell was mentioned; there are others now who are working with us on that mission as well. It's great to see.

I do want to offer a sense of resilience and stability to community growers to enable horticultural expansion—the point that has been made by Members. We can do so much more. So, my officials have been working with stakeholders to break down the barriers to small-scale horticultural development in Wales. So, we support growers through two dedicated funding streams: the horticulture development scheme and the small grants horticulture start-up scheme, and those projects include—and this touches, by the way, on the Soil Association Food for Life programme, because we're trying to do a version of this in Wales. So, if you look at the Welsh Veg in Schools, which I know Jenny and others have seen in place, funded by the backing local firms fund, as well as the community orchards project, that's trying to do very much that Food for Life approach here in Wales.

Now, I'll reiterate that the community food strategy is nearing completion. It will be published as soon as possible. This, by the way, might indeed give a boost to ideas, because it's very much focused on those local networks and driving those local food chains to things such as prepping and washing the food as well, because it gives that licence, if you like, to think differently, do things differently, as well as, by the way, things like that last-mile-of-delivery aspect as well—how you get the food there to people.

Now, last July, of course, I published our 'Food Matters: Wales' document, which brought together all the actions and strategies that relate to food policy now across Welsh Government, including bringing together health, education, procurement and the rural economy. We have, by the way, just to reassure colleagues here in the Chamber today, established an internal senior officials food forum that brings together all those policies relating to food, such as and including ultra-processed foods, procurement, delivery of the community food strategy, making sure that all the elements are co-ordinated and aligned to the well-being of the people in Wales. And by the way, we are also engaged with the UK Government to understand how our own policies are being delivered within any future UK food strategy. Now, this is important, Llyr, in addressing some of your points, because we can do some of the stuff in Wales, but also, within that strategy, they are looking at things such as those aspects of UK food supply chains, local-food supply chains, resilience of food supply chains, and household resilience as well. So, those aspects—we're very keen to engage in that, because there are things we can do directly in Wales. I've run out of time. But there are also things we can do on a UK basis, recognising that some of the resilience is not purely here within Wales, but also at a UK level, and internationally, indeed, as well.

I've run out of time, but I did take an intervention. Would you—? A tiny bit of latitude, because otherwise I'll miss really important points. So, alongside this, of course, our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy sets out the actions we're taking to support and encourage people to eat those healthy, balanced diets, in line with the Eatwell Guide. The community food strategy will reinforce this. Those diets high in ultra-processed foods have been linked to all the conditions that have been talked about by Members, and we need to turn this around. We've got strong evidence of their impact on health. So, our dietary advice in Wales remains really focused on limiting these nutrients, such as calories, saturated fat, salt, sugar et cetera, et cetera, both in ultra-processed and indeed in unprocessed food. And, of course, we have the Healthy Start programme as well, focusing on inequality in children's nutrition, the nutrition skills for life and so on.

And I just finally want to say one thing that has been touched on a little bit—actually, our food sector within Wales is a real success story. In 2022 the supply chain from farm to retail and food service employed 228,500 individuals in Wales; 17 per cent of Wales's workforce is within this sector, many of them in rural Wales as well as within urban communities. The food foundation sector turnover increased 15 per cent from 2022 to 2023, exceeding our £8.5 billion target, which was set.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I really thank Members for the debate today. It's a very important debate. Food affects all parts of our lives. I hope I've outlined that the actions that we are taking, combined with the introduction of the community food strategy, really provides that holistic strategic framework so that we can develop that sustainable, resilient food system in Wales, and I'm keen to work with all Members in taking this work forward, now and in future. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you very much for all the really excellent contributions from across all parts of the house. It was great to hear the Conservative Member talking about the good food revolution, which is what we need. We absolutely have a public health emergency. And I absolutely acknowledge Peter Fox's groundbreaking work in a framework for a whole-system approach, and we wait to see—. The community food strategy won't be sufficient for that, Deputy First Minister, because we are talking about across the whole system, not just in the community. It needs, as Peter said, to be anchored in legislation or regulation, because the landscape is littered with organisations that start off doing well, and then there's a change of personnel and it all goes back to how it was before. So, we are going to have to need to use some of those levers to really turn things around.

Llyr talks about our unbalanced food system. Obviously, we should highlight the fact that the sustainable farming scheme does actually allow for new entrants into farming, not based on the amount of land they own, but the amount of hours they work, and this is a really important innovation to enable more horticulturists to—. But they need to have the markets to enable them to ensure that their goods are going to get sold. So, we need to pick up on some of the ideas that have come from Ireland, where they have these distribution networks, because the amount of food that's going into schools at the moment is absolutely tiny. It's a great little initiative, but we need to 'plus plus' by about 1,000 per cent.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I'm glad to see that many Members have said that we need a washing facility. We possibly need more than one washing facility in a local authority, depending on their geography, but we definitely need that if we're going to incorporate it into public sector food.

We have to move beyond food resilience, frankly. We have to refer back to Tim Lang's report for the National Preparedness Commission. This is not just any old commission. This is the one that prepared for nuclear war when people were thinking that that was about to happen. This is the one that prepared, or didn't prepare us, for COVID. And it is now doing the work that everybody needs to do to ensure that in the next crisis—we don't know what form it'll take—we'll ensure that people aren't starving.

Lee, having courgettes from Chile is hardly addressing the net-zero targets we are setting ourselves, and it's absolutely not necessary. Courgettes are easy to grow. The trouble is that they all arrive during the school holidays. But there are systems for incorporating them into our schools when they come back, but equally into our hospitals, as Altaf said. And I haven't yet visited Hirwaun's Authentic Curry Company, but it's definitely on my little list. And that is a really good initiative by one company—just so long as they're not adding loads of salt to whatever it is they're doing.

And Carolyn, you were absolutely right to say that council houses used to have large gardens, and there are parts of my constituency that still have decent-sized gardens. Nearly everybody has a place to grow, but, I have to tell you, hardly anybody does the growing. And so there's a massive political community education campaign, which is why I'm referring the Government back to the role of the primary school, because it is the centre of the community, necessarily.

I have to say, it's great to hear Alun Davies talking about the national emergency that is an act of capitalism. That's absolutely right. Supermarkets are focused on maximizing their profit, and that is why they load all their food with these obesogenic salts, sugar and fat, and that is really driving this obesity crisis, which, as you say, we didn't see in the 1970s.

And I want to just refer to the work of Henry Dimbleby. Three years ago, or two years ago, he produced this report—a Conservative for the Conservative Government. And what did they do? They put it in the bin. It's tragic. But he says in his thing that

'several company bosses have told us they would actually welcome Government legislation'

designed to reduce junk food sales. They know the food they're selling is terrible for their consumers, and they want to do the right thing, but they need a 'level playing field'. They're scared that if they do it, the others will then overtake their market. And we absolutely have to insist with the UK Government, because only they can do this, that they act now. They don't need to reinvent the Henry Dimbleby report. They need to act now and put ultra-processed food where Private Eye suggests we should put it, which is in the bin.

And so, just lastly, I just want to say that in response, Huw, you are talking about local food partnerships, but we really do need to understand that it doesn't have to be copying the good food nation in Scotland, but it has to be just as good. And yes, we have got the support of the well-being of future generations commissioner, and we absolutely have cross-party support here. But I want to quote back to you something that somebody said in 2015, which is that

'cross-party support and a Government strategy committed to making Wales a leader, but a lack of follow through and rigorous execution of delivery has left us a very pale imitation of Scotland.'

We need to be the leaders. We need to do the things that—. France and Italy would never have allowed their children to be sold the second-class food that is being served in our schools today, and I want to see the commitment to actually ban ultra-processed food from all public procurement. That is what we need to work towards. We can't achieve it overnight, but we need to set a date and do it.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee Report, 'Culture shock: Culture and the new relationship with the European Union'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee Report, 'Culture shock: Culture and the new relationship with the European Union', and I call on the Chair of the committee, Delyth Jewell, to move the motion.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last year, my committee’s inquiry into culture and the new relationship with the EU revealed the extent of Brexit’s effects on this sector. The inquiry went to the very heart of our shared European history—a history where artists have crossed borders, have exchanged ideas and inspirations, and have woven together a shared cultural tapestry. Now, the threads of that tapestry have become frayed, without question, and our report, 'Culture shock', provides a sobering account of how this has been made manifest.

For example, Welsh National Opera told us that their carnet—a type of passport for goods, that is—cost £5,000 plus the cost of two days of administration. They face an additional £5,000 for the transportation of sets, costumes and other equipment. Additional checks on their instruments took 30 days. They’ve paid additional visa and NHS surcharges and told us that their commercial arm, Cardiff Theatrical Services, lost out on a job to the value of £500,000. NoFit State Circus told us that they’re inserting a clause into artists' contracts preventing them from going on holiday to remain within the Schengen zone’s 90 out of 180 day rule. Their carnet is around £28,000. The Association of British Orchestras face additional costs of £16,000 per day to abide by transport rules known as cabotage, whereby the number of tour stops is restricted before a tour must return to the UK. Their carnet is £10,000. And the European Centre for Training and Regional Co-operation’s turnover went from £1 million to nothing, resulting in a complete collapse of its business. Now, these are just some examples of the quantifiable evidence we found in our report. But what was heartbreaking to hear was about the loss of spontaneity, ambition, creativity and confidence in these sectors, those things that are the lifeblood of the arts, and that there is such nervousness that exists about UK-EU work despite a willingness to continue. The creative director of a theatre at the Other Voices festival said that he is no longer considering touring Europe at all, that this aspiration is cut off.

And as well as horizons being limited, paths shut off, we heard about all of those things that can’t be captured in spreadsheets. Baroness Bull spoke to us about the immeasurable things, the unrealised talent and unseen performances that cannot be quantified and will not be recovered. She said,

'we have lost a significant tranche of talent that we will never know about'.

As a committee, the bluntness of the message we’ve heard stays with us. I know I can speak for other Members when I say that, because of the discussions that we’ve had. The more established artists and tour groups, of course, will have connections and they will more likely have the budget to pay someone to navigate the complexities of carnets and cabotage; new, emerging artists will not. That is, the palpability of what is being lost is not in the graphs, but in the gaps, the connections that won’t ever be made, opportunities missed and the cost that comes as a result, because, every week, artists are choosing not to pursue new ventures, not to make life-changing connections, because of the barriers placed in their path.

Now, time and again, we heard about the importance of ensuring that artists can be free to thrive across borders without having to navigate the endless complexities that are facing them. The true value of this cannot be calculated nor can it be underestimated. Now, as a committee, we too experienced this to some degree. Different Governments have different responsibilities for different elements of the issue and so we found ourselves in a maze of trade, immigration and constitutional intricacies. This is what our artists are facing just to do what they have always done. We heard from four UK Ministers, six Welsh Ministers, including two former First Ministers, and a department of the Irish Government. We also received evidence from Members of the House of Lords, the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly and the European Parliament. We had no choice but to issue recommendations designed to improve the situation using the levers available to the Welsh and UK Governments.

We note that it will be the—. It was, of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning who responded to our report and whilst we are grateful for that—indeed, we are—the involvement of other Ministers who hold responsibilities for these issues is not always altogether clear. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership is responsible for many of the issues raised in our report; the First Minister is responsible for others—international relations and Wales and Europe, for example. I’d be grateful if, when responding to the debate, the Cabinet Secretary could explain how they fed into the response as well and how the Cabinet Secretaries will be working across Government together on these issues, please.

Now, the Welsh Government accepted some of our recommendations, including to support the solution put forward by the PPA, the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, which we hope the UK and EU will take forward. It accepted our recommendations to set out what support it provides to and how it has engaged with the sector about the effects of Brexit since it first identified the issue in February 2021.

Now, we were particularly troubled by some witnesses’ testimony who told us that we were the first decision-makers with whom they’d been able to share their experiences. We asked the Welsh Government what data and evidence it’s using to inform decisions, and what assessments it has of the effect of Brexit on the sector, and it said that it has not carried out specific research on this. We called on the Welsh Government to champion this issue when it meets other UK Governments, and to report back to us once a term. This was accepted but only in part, as the Government would not agree to this frequency.

We asked the Welsh Government to explain steps it’s taken to mitigate the effect of all this. The Cabinet Secretary pointed to some initiatives but has said that these are not specific to mitigating the Brexit effects, and one of the examples given was of activity that is funded in the United States.

The Welsh Government accepted our recommendation that the UK and EU should prioritise this matter in the upcoming review of the trade and co-operation agreement’s implementation, but it rejected our committee’s call to set out its ambitions for Wales-EU and UK-EU relations in a dedicated strategy. Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, our committee and three others are considering evidence ahead of the TCA’s upcoming implementation review. We are still hearing about the effects of Brexit on the sector through this work.

And the last recommendation I’d like to highlight is that the findings of ‘Culture shock’, this report, should be incorporated into future culture and international relations strategies. This the Government accepted, but only where those findings align with its own priorities. Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would question whether the Government’s response in this particular vein provides sufficient reassurance to the committee and indeed to the sector. The UK Government’s response provides an overview of proactive steps being taken with the sector, the EU and EU member states. Now, the UK Government acknowledges the value of our sector to the UK’s international offer in its response. It recognises the importance of maintaining our global standing through the arts, that artists need to be able to perform and promote themselves around the world.

It is clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, that these barriers have slowed the free movement of creativity, ideas and potential. We reiterate our plea to the Welsh Government that it must do all within its power to help. I look forward to hearing from the Cabinet Secretary about how the Welsh Government plans to advance these matters, to provide that reassurance that we’re desperately seeking and to demonstrate its solidarity with the sector.

I look forward to hearing Members' comments in the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's a pleasure to be speaking on this debate today, and I'd like to begin by saying it's important to note that this report is primarily looking at the post-Brexit inter-governmental system, which, as the committee states, appears to have failed the culture sector. It is not a debate on Brexit per se, but the Welsh Government's navigation of Brexit, and we are discussing that in relation to the cultural and arts sector.

My contention is that the so-called cultural iron curtain is self-imposed. I'd like to add too that, despite having the utmost respect for the work of the committee, I have disagreements with the overall tone of this committee report and some of its recommendations. I was not a member of the committee at the time of the report's production, but I will outline my position on the report and recommendations that I believe deserve consideration from the Welsh Government.

It is also disappointing that the Welsh Government rejected some of the key recommendations in the report that I think would be beneficial for the sector, such as providing an assessment of the impact of Brexit on the culture and arts sector. In my opinion, the outlook and attitude of the Welsh Government have been one of the biggest obstacles to a successful post-Brexit Wales. The Welsh Government's continued obsession with Brexit pessimism is a disservice to the people of Wales—

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Will you take an intervention?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Yes, Mick.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Would you say, then, that, in your opinion, Brexit has been good for cultural engagement with the European Union?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm going to go on to that, and I'll expand a bit more in my further remarks.

This report and some of its recommendations reflect a defeatist attitude that prioritises alignment with the EU over Welsh and UK sovereignty. Many of the concerns outlined in the report are due to failures in the Welsh Government's collaboration with the UK Government and other devolved administrations. Often, the discussion surrounding Brexit leads the electorate to believe that it was almost a single constitutional settlement and a set of policies they had voted for, but it wasn't. It's allowed Governments, both national and devolved, to make as many or as few opportunities out of it as they wanted. Previous UK Governments, admittedly, have squandered some of the opportunities, and some of the decisions made were not the right ones, but these were decisions made by the elected Governments of the day. They were not the inevitable consequences of Brexit, and we should recognise that Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the European Union, and—[Interruption.]—and we should bear in mind, when we hear from Welsh nationalist politicians who support our membership of the European Union, a supranational organisation, but support leaving the only true union that matters, the United Kingdom—.

The Welsh Government has also failed to find a post-Brexit future for Wales by looking at Brexit as a problem to overcome—

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Would you take an intervention?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Yes.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I would very gently say to the Conservative spokesperson that this is supposed to be a debate; it's not a recitation where you come here and read out something that was written for you. It's an opportunity to debate these matters, and that involves understanding and understanding the issues behind the matters we are debating. Will you engage with anybody in this Chamber on these matters or will you continue simply to read your speech?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Well, this is the second intervention I've taken, so I think I'm engaging very well in the debate, thank you very much.

One of the biggest benefits of Brexit is that the decisions that affect the people of Wales are made closer to home, and politicians can be held accountable for their decisions. The Chair's foreword states that the Brexit

'barriers have slowed the free movement of creativity, ideas, and potential with many artists choosing simply never to tour'

and this is a concerning problem. It's imperative that the Welsh Government collect this data, as data of EU artists travelling to Wales is not currently recorded, which is not acceptable, and it's imperative that the Welsh Government collect this data as it pertains to Wales and that this is transparent and influences future decision making.

To conclude my remarks, I would like to reiterate that the Welsh Government must stop clinging to the past and start working towards a future that maximises Wales's potential with a future United Kingdom. I'd like to know what the Minister is doing for the creative industries to have better access to audiences around the globe, and not just the European Union. I'd like the Minister to outline how the Welsh Government plans to improve data collection on the movement of touring artists between Wales, the EU and the rest of the world, and outline whether the Welsh Government intends to publish guidance for the creative industries and provide a timetable for this. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I'm grateful to the Chair of the committee for introducing this report and grateful to the secretariat, who have supported the committee in its work. It was a privilege to visit Brussels with the committee. It served as a reminder of the importance of building relations between Wales and Europe, particularly when it comes to the culture sector. They're our nearest neighbours, Europe, and travelling through Europe really enriches our lives.

We heard evidence from the creative sector, and there have been no gains since leaving the EU, only costs and bureaucracy that have put us at a disadvantage to other countries. The absence of explicit provisions in the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement necessitates UK performers adhering to regulations in each of the 27 EU member states, which often vary and are really, really complex. More guidance and consistency is needed, not just for those who are travelling, but also for those who are actually working in border control. Without a single EU carnet, touring theatre companies, music ensembles and tv and film productions face significant delays and costs at each internal border, when bringing sets, instruments, equipment and all those other things into the EU.

UK Music's 2023 survey found that 82 per cent of British musicians said that their earnings had decreased because of Brexit, and that 43 per cent of musicians surveyed said that it is no longer viable for them to tour EU nations—our neighbours. They now face the complicated landscapes of carnets, tax liability uncertainty, health insurance costs, 90-day visa limits and delays at borders and in processing A1 forms. They also bear the additional costs of having to employ staff to navigate and manage this new level of administration. And as was mentioned, NoFit State Circus explained that, because of the 90-day rule, they were forced to turn down bookings for summer 2023, with an estimated loss of income of circa £120,000.

The loss of access to funds has also been significant. I was really envious when we heard about Creative Europe, which had a massive injection of funds that we can no longer access. Previously, when we were members of the EU, the funding we had in Wales for community initiatives and for all sorts of arts and culture was amazing, and that's not been replaced at all. It's so sorely missed.

It is felt that the creative industries do not have UK Government recognition of their importance or value, either, unlike in Europe. The previous UK Government's handling of Brexit has been wholly unsatisfactory, to say the least. And, through the new Labour Government in Westminster, along with the Welsh Government, we need to rebuild co-operation and trust with our European neighbours—and that's what we heard when we were in Brussels, as well—particularly when it comes to economic and cultural relations.

Whilst the numbers surrounding the damaging economic consequences of Brexit are stark, it's the immeasurable impact on people's lives that we must not forget: the lost opportunities, experiences and connections that could have been made, that storytelling and learning from different cultures, which enriches our music, our culture. That's what Wales is about for me—that culture and music. As the report states, every week, artists are choosing not to pursue new ventures, not to make life-changing connections. Brexit has already cost us so much. We must try to rebuild what we can, going forward, between Wales and Europe and through the UK Government. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you to the committee for the work I was part of the work towards the end, but not at the beginning. I have to say, one of the things I felt most strongly when I was part of this inquiry, and when we launched the report in Brussels, was this feeling of sadness. Sadness not just on our part and the losses to Wales, but the sadness in Europe in terms of the restrictions that have followed as a result of this. The fact that we have Wales Arts International, and they've been leading so many of these projects; not that we were part of them and benefited from them, but we were leading, inspiring other nations, and they miss us in Europe, because of what Wales contributed.

So, yes, we can look at the facts in terms of the money that we're losing, that's certain. And the fact that Creative Europe's budget has increased by 66 per cent after Brexit means that Europe has acknowledged that they haven't been investing sufficiently in culture—something that we've been discussing here—and that they see the power, the value and the economic value of culture. And at a time when there are so many altercations worldwide, and so much uncertainty, and so on, they see the value of investing in terms of creating alliances, in terms of ensuring that we tackle inequalities too, and they see that there's a need to invest more because of the importance of culture.

If you then consider that they see that Wales can contribute so much, that our national institutions are looking at their role in terms of the preventive agenda, that they are looking at preventing child poverty, and the role of culture in that, and that they're also considering the anti-racist agenda, and their role in that too, that is the sort of thing that Creative Europe is tackling, and they would like us to be able to contribute to that. So, what's the barrier to that? There's nothing preventing it. It's not Brexit's fault that we are not part of Creative Europe. It was a choice by the previous UK Government.

What I would like to hear today from the Cabinet Secretary is what's going to change, because the clock is ticking now. There is a deadline now in terms of the UK being able to rejoin Creative Europe. So, what discussions has the Welsh Government been having with the UK Government to ensure that this does happen, and that we do rejoin Creative Europe? It is holding Wales back. It means that we will fall even further down in the tables. We will be right at the bottom, not just towards the bottom, in terms of spending on culture, if we don’t rejoin Creative Europe. I would hope that we could all agree on that. That would mean millions of pounds of investment here in Wales in terms of this important sector. And if we don’t rejoin, the Welsh Government doesn’t have the resources to be investing the same amount. So, that will damage these sectors, which are so important.

What saddens me too is how many people choose not to be in Wales, who work in this sector now. They don’t see a future for themselves in Wales. So, it isn’t just a matter of sadness here. It’s a matter where we need to come together and demand that there are things that we can change. Rather than just express our sadness that Brexit has happened, why aren’t we attempting to right some of the mistakes made by the previous Conservative Government?

So, if we can have that assurance, then that will be a major step forward in terms of delivering on the report’s aims, to ensure that Wales, as part of Europe, is able to contribute and lead the way in this field. Not just to be there to receive those millions of pounds, but to lead the way and take pride, as an international nation, that we can continue to do that.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Can I, first of all, thank the committee for the report? I am now on the committee, but, of course, I was not involved in those early sessions on it. Can I also declare an interest, as a member of the Musicians Union, one of the bodies that has given evidence to the committee?

Can I just deal with the latter part of the report first of all? That’s the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly. When Brexit occurred, we pushed very hard from Wales, at that level and also at the Committee of the Regions level, which was creating a parallel body as well, that Wales should have a full status in that. We have specific devolved functions that we have been able to pursue as a sub-national body within the EU. And, to be honest, the observer status that we have now, which was imposed by the previous Government, because they really did not want Wales to have a voice—. They did not recognise either the Welsh or the Scottish or even the Northern Ireland voice, specifically, within those particular bodies. It is really a great shame that that has not yet been changed, and I hope that it will be changed.

Can I say that I welcome also the fact that there is clearly much greater co-operation taking place? There clearly is engagement taking place. Maybe it is sensitive, in terms of discussions and so on, but it is good to see that happening. Hopefully, that actually at least provides a mechanism for an adult conversation, a mature conversation, which clearly was not taking place previously.

Of course, the biggest issue affecting the cultural sector—. We have to say that Brexit has been a social and cultural disaster for Wales and, indeed, for the UK. You only need to see that by the evidence. Gareth Davies’s statement, I thought, was very disappointing. He read out a statement, but did not address any of the real evidence that had appeared before the committee, which I was very pleased to read.

So, this is the Musicians Union’s summary of the evidence, and I think that it is summarised by—

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I make an intervention?

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Yes, of course you can.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I did raise those issues because I was talking about travelling artists and the future relationship that Wales can play with that. So, I think that it's a bit disingenuous to be saying that I didn't raise some of those specific points, along with the political ones, which you yourself are making now.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

You recognised that they existed, and then you totally ignored the consequence of them. When I asked you to tell me what was good about Brexit, as far as culture was concerned, you did not address that at all.

But these are the key findings and they apply across the board. Seventy-five per cent of respondents who previously worked in the EU prior to the UK's departure said that bookings had declined, work has declined. Fifty-nine per cent—that's getting close to two thirds—said that touring the EU was no longer financially viable. Many of them said they could no longer afford to actually work culturally in the EU, or do all the things that were required. They cannot now do that important part of cultural exchange, you know, the products that go with it, the produce, what they call colloquially 'swag'. Thirteen per cent experienced part of their fees being withheld due to complications in connection with tax and national insurance. At just about every level, there are now complications, red tape and obstructions that never existed before when we had freedom of movement, when we were part of the European Union.

Can I just say that, in summary of this, clearly, we need a stronger status for Wales in terms of engagement with the EU? I think we need to raise our profile in terms of the EU and the Wales office that is in Brussels. We need to actually press much harder with the UK Government in terms of full status for us within the bodies that are being set up to exist. But I think we also need to make clear that these cultural relations will never be properly resolved. The only resolution is to take away those restrictions and barriers that occurred as a result of Brexit, which are now socially and culturally impairing our ability to properly participate with other countries on the cultural scene. Diolch.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I should thank the Chair for the way she introduced this debate this afternoon, and also, of course, the committee secretariat for the work they've done in producing this report and facilitating the inquiry that we undertook.

I think it’s pretty well accepted now that Brexit has been a national humiliation for the United Kingdom, but I think what is not fully understood is the way in which it has been a cultural disaster for us in Wales as well. One of the issues I was thinking about yesterday when we were paying tribute to Dafydd Elis-Thomas was the way that he recognised that Wales is a European nation, and the way that he pursued that through his lifetime. And, of course, Welsh culture is an inherently European culture. It is who we are. It’s part of who we are. It’s part of our cultural inheritance as Europeans. And whatever administrative barriers are imposed between us and the European mainland, what you cannot escape is the cultural heritage and our history that makes us who we are. That cannot be eradicated by an Act of Parliament or simply put aside by an international treaty. We are as European today as were 10 years ago. What we are losing is our ability to enjoy and to have the cultural experiences that we were able to enjoy before.

One of the real issues that we need to address here as a Parliament is the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. The withdrawal agreement and the TCA were driven through this Parliament, were driven though the Westminster Parliament, without any opportunity for us to consider the consequences of that agreement. There was no opportunity here; there was no opportunity in Westminster. There was no opportunity at all for us to understand the consequences of what had been forced through that agreement. The only place where there was an opportunity to have that debate and discussion was, of course, Brussels, because the European Parliament, a more transparent Parliament, insisted on having the opportunity to consider the agreement in full, and, as a consequence, they understood what was happening within this agreement, but we did not, and now we are paying the price for that. And I hope, Deputy Presiding Officer, that this Parliament will ensure that we are able to consider all these matters in due course.

Because when you talk about the freedom of people, the freedom of movement, the freedom of movement, goods, people and services, what you’re talking about is the freedom for one human being to talk to another. One of the consequences of Brexit that we debated isn’t just the loss of the membership of Creative Europe, in the way that Heledd has described, and the funding that comes along with it, and the structures and networks that go with it, but more importantly than that, and more fundamental than that, is the ability of one human being to speak to another human being and to share that common inheritance, for people to enjoy the ability, whether it's to make music or to listen to music or to enjoy what brings us together. That cultural inheritance cannot be taken away, but what has happened is that we are unable to enjoy it as fully as we were before, and that is a tragedy. But it's not an equal tragedy, is it? It's more of a tragedy for my daughter and my son than it has been for me. It's a loss of opportunity, it's a loss of talent, it's a loss of creativity, it's a loss to our economy and it's a loss to our culture.

The Welsh Government as well needs to face up to its responsibilities. The Cabinet Secretary will be replying to this debate. Now, I happen to know that she's a European to her fingertips, and that she will have been sitting here silently agreeing with everything that has been said by every Member speaking in this debate—except Gareth Davies, right? So I know that she's a European to her fingertips, and I know that she agrees with what we're doing, and I want her to say that in her contribution, and I want to see from the Welsh Government an EU engagement strategy. I want to see from the Welsh Government a debate on how we address the review of the implementation of the TCA, and I want to see from the Welsh Government a vision as part of their international strategy of how we're going to take these things forward.

We recognise the disaster of Brexit. We recognise the damage—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Alun, you need to conclude now, please.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

—that has been done to the United Kingdom and to Wales. What we need to do now is to chart a way forward, a course forward, that will help repair the damage until we're able to rejoin the European Union again.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to begin by thanking the committee for its report examining the impact of the UK's departure from the European Union on our cultural landscape, and really welcome this opportunity to discuss the headwinds that our cultural ambassadors are currently navigating. Culture is a vital part of how Wales establishes and develops our relationships with the whole world, and this debate, of course, is taking place five years on from when the UK left the EU, so it is really a timely opportunity to consider the resulting barriers, which are now impacting so significantly on our cultural sector. Of course I agree with the committee that the impact of the UK's exit from the EU has been felt right across the cultural sector, and a really notable example, of course, is the reduced freedom of movement for artists and for creative workers from Wales working in EU countries, and of course EU artists who are looking to come and perform in Wales. This means, really, that Welsh artists must understand the regulations for whichever EU member state that they're travelling to. That's both in terms of border entries or visas or any work permit regulations that are relevant to their activities and their particular length of stay, and this is made even more complex and costly when artists or companies are touring, as they have to follow the different rules for each of the different countries, and the Schengen area visiting rules can also be really prohibitive for touring companies and individual creative workers. We've heard some really powerful examples in the debate, but also in the evidence that the committee heard from people who are working in the creative sector, particularly those touring companies and artists.

I just want to reassure the committee that its findings will be fully considered during the development of our future strategies to address the situation that the sector faces. Our draft priorities for culture recognise the importance of culture in how Wales establishes and develops our international relationships, and of course in how we go about promoting Wales to the rest of the world. But I think one of the most impactful things that I've heard during the debate this afternoon was the committee Chair's opening remarks talking about that sad loss of spontaneity, all of those opportunities for those unexpected moments to arrive, and those life-changing connections that people make with strangers. They’re often the kind of things that, actually, develop art and creativity in themselves as well. So, that was extremely powerful this afternoon.

So, where the findings of the committee's report align with our delivery priorities, they'll be incorporated to enable the effective delivery and development of our future international relationships. And, of course, if the findings of the report support our economic development priorities for the creative industries, we'll consider these alongside the development of current guidelines, new programmes and activities. I do see opportunities for hope in the future as well through the UK Government's industrial strategy, and their very clear focus and understanding of the importance of creative industries. I think that we can take some heart from that as well.

As detailed in the report, the seamless movement of people and the single market in services and goods that supported the culture sector directly and indirectly have been replaced with the limited UK-EU agreement, the trade and co-operation agreement. So, in response to that question as to why I've been the Minister responding to the debate this afternoon and the committee report, it really was because, essentially, it boils down to a trade issue in this instance for which I'm responsible. But just to give that reassurance that I work, of course, very closely with Jack Sargeant as my deputy, who has that wider responsibility for the creative sector and the arts. But obviously, the First Minister has an interest and in the debate I was reflecting on all the other Ministers, actually, who have an interest in this, including, for example, the health Minister, recognising the important role of the arts in health as well. So, there is that reassurance that I can give that we are taking a co-ordinated approach to this.

Whilst the TCA is fundamental to the Welsh economy as a basis for Wales and the rest of the UK to trade in goods with the EU, it's obviously not a like-for-like replacement by any means to the market access that we did have as EU members, and it has created those new barriers for Welsh businesses. However, it does create a comprehensive governance structure for EU-UK engagement, and we're using that now to engage with the EU through the UK Government. I do hope that we are able now to resolve some of those trade barriers.

The implementation of the TCA will be reviewed and that might lead to some small changes, but I think that the broader reset that the UK Government is seeking with the EU is the place that we can see some more significant opportunities to make progress, and to remove some of Brexit's most negative consequences. Areas that we believe that the UK Government should really be focusing on include business and youth mobility, and this would include the issues that we've been talking about this afternoon, as well as barriers to trade and access to programmes such as Creative Europe. So, again, I reassure colleagues that these are at the top of our discussions that we're having with our colleagues in the UK Government. I've been having some of those discussions through the inter-ministerial group on trade very recently, and we'll pursue all opportunities and avenues to make sure that these points on behalf of creative workers are well understood and well represented.

I just want to set out some of the ways in which we are trying to positively engage with the challenges and support the businesses with some of the difficulties that they are navigating. So, through the Business Wales website, we provide information to businesses on the exporting of goods and services from Wales to overseas markets, including the EU. That website also contains links directly, then, to the UK Government's information on exporting procedures and the TCA more widely. And I do think that the response and the feedback that we've had from the support that we provide through Business Wales has been very good.

Our Creative Wales team also provides information, including a touring guide that has been commissioned by Arts Council England. That's a useful resource for touring artists on navigating the new regulations, visa requirements, tax implications and so on. And we've got our export support programmes, including our trade and overseas events programme, and, of course, our offices overseas play a really important role in assisting businesses to develop their exports also. Moreover, Creative Wales also offers specialist support to businesses in the creative industries, for example the—

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Minister, will you give way?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I will.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

You're outlining some of the immediate issues that the Government are taking up, and I'm grateful to you for that, but there's a more fundamental thing here, isn't there, which you're not addressing, and I really would press you to address? Because what is at the heart of this committee report is that the Welsh Government has been too slow to respond to the crisis that is facing the cultural sector in its totality, and in terms of its relationship with Europe and the European Union. And also the Welsh Government has not identified clearly the approach it wants to take to the TCA implementation review, and the Welsh Government has not outlined its vision for future engagement with the European Union, as part of its international strategy. Those are the fundamental policy issues that we really need the Welsh Government to address, and to address more urgently than it has done in the past.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I absolutely take on board those points, and the desire of the Senedd to have further information about our approach and our priorities in relation to the TCA review. I've set out some of the wider priorities that we have in terms of the movement of people, and particularly young people, to ensure that they have the opportunities, and also our keenness to continue making that case for access to programmes such as Creative Europe. So, my intention today is to focus specifically on the creative sector in my response, but I will give some further consideration as to how we have a wider conversation within the Senedd on the broader points.

I did, though, want to just mention the young content fund. That does help address the loss of access to EU production funding via Creative Europe. I also want to draw attention to Wales Arts International, the international arm, of course, of the Arts Council of Wales, again providing excellent support and leading on Arts Infopoint UK, again providing that practical support for artists and creative professionals and organisations to understand the rules and the requirements for creative visits to the UK.

So, I'll take the opportunity—obviously, I'm out of time—to thank the committee very much for their very helpful report, and to reflect on the further and wider points that colleagues have raised, and that desire to have that broader conversation.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank everyone who has participated in the debate. I'll start with Gareth.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'm sorry to hear that you disagreed with the tone of the report. It was a unanimous report that was agreed by all members of the committee, but I'm grateful that you said that you respected the work that we had done. Now, of course, we will keep taking evidence on this issue, particularly when it comes to the work I referred to and that's come up about the implementation of the TCA. I hope that, when we receive that evidence—well, I think it's possible that you might change your mind on some of those issues, on hearing that evidence first-hand. But I do thank you for your contribution. So, diolch, and you're very welcome to the committee.

Carolyn, who was a member of the committee until recently, mentioned the fact that culture issues have been left out of the TCA and that that has been a matter of regret. It came up a few times in the course of this evidence, Dirprwy Lywydd, that, usually with any trade agreement, the purpose of it is to make things easier, to break down barriers. One of the things that is most perverse about the TCA and everything that's happened in the wake of Brexit, in this regard, is that it is the opposite of that, and I think that overcoming some of that perversity is the challenge. Carolyn also set out some of the complexities, the almost labyrinthine layers of complexity and documentation. And storytelling, the importance of that, absolutely.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

So, thank you very much for that, Carolyn.

Heledd mentioned, yes, the sadness that was expressed, when we went to Brussels, about the restrictions. And how we as Welsh people used to lead so many projects, that certainly came across to us—those things that go beyond data. And, yes, culture is more than a tool, as you mentioned. It can create connections and prevent so much conflict when we are seeing so much war and conflict across the globe. And yes, it was a choice to keep us out of Creative Europe. That is what makes it so frustrating. It was a choice; it wasn't an inevitability that came from Brexit. Heledd asked what discussions are being held with Westminster in order to change that in terms of Creative Europe, and I was pleased to hear some reference to that, and I'll return to that when I respond to the Cabinet Secretary.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Now, Mick—you're very welcome to our committee as well—welcomed greater co-operation that has happened between the UK and the EU. We do live in hope that that will bear more fruit, of course. Mick talked about the evidence from the Musicians' Union about declining bookings: 59 per cent said touring in the EU is no longer financially viable. Again, the fact that this was a choice to leave out of agreements, it makes it all the more galling, of course, for so many of the people giving evidence to us.

Alun, Welsh culture is an inherently European culture. I think of the map that was found in a remote church in Italy some 200 years ago, I think, and the only two places marked out on the map in these islands were London and Merthyr Tydfil. And when we think about Welsh literature, the poetry of Aneurin, Taliesin—they are celebrated throughout Europe as being the oldest surviving literature in all of Europe. Our culture is inherently European.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We mentioned yesterday, as Alun mentioned when were paying tribute to Dafydd El in the Siambr, how important that was, and may I say personally how much much of this would break his heart, I'm sure, and I'm sure it did in recent years?

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Alun closed with saying that this is fundamentally about people speaking, sharing common inheritance, those things that we all share, and how we're all impoverished as a result.

Now, the Cabinet Secretary acknowledged the difficulties, of course, facing artists. I think everyone who has taken part in this debate has acknowledged those difficulties. It is gratifying to hear that our work will help to shape future work from the Government, I do welcome that, and I also welcomed hearing what you said about Creative Europe, because you spoke about opportunities for hope. Now, that would bring so much hope to so many people working in the creative industries. It's good to hear that that is at the top of discussions that you're having with your Westminster colleagues. I look forward to hearing more about that, and thank you as well for reassuring us about the work that is going on across Government on this. Of course, there are opportunities for hope—I speak about that again. The TCA—I think, as a committee, we, very much reflecting on the evidence, would want to see the TCA being amended, not just in small ways, but that this fundamental change could happen. I thought what you said on that was tantalising. I hope that there will be a shift. Let us hope. We have to live; we have to cling to hope with something like this. I hope that, again, the Government here will keep amplifying these points in those discussions with Westminster.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to emphasise the importance of finding solutions—. Llywydd; I do apologise. We as a committee praise those who are working to find those solutions. We have welcomed the improvement that we've seen in terms of connections between the UK and the European Union since the completion of the Windsor framework. [Interruption.] Bless you. The possible opportunities that this provides gives us hope that there could be solutions within reach if there is enough determination and will.

Now, of course, these are strategic issues for the UK and the European Union in the first instance. But we believe that the solutions for creative workers could be found in simplifying processes and explaining them better. As always with the impacts of Brexit, we have to look beyond the data to see the real impact on people's lives. That came out of the evidence. We all benefit from the art created by these artists, and we all have an important role to play in helping the sector.

In conclusion, I will say to the sector that this report represents our commitment as a committee to you. We can't afford to give up, and we won't. We're grateful to you for your persistence and your commitment to your work. We must ensure a better and easier future for our artists, where light can shine once again, and shine the way for us all.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Inquiry into child sexual exploitation

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 7 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate on an inquiry into child sexual exploitation. I call on Altaf Hussain to move the motion.