Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 29 January 2025

309 contributions from 45 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item today is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

1. What is the Cabinet Secretary doing to support Welsh-language media? OQ62201

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member, Llywydd, for the question. The memorandum of understanding between Creative Wales and S4C is just one practical example of the support that the Welsh Government provides to Welsh language media. The result has been the promotion of the language nationally and internationally.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware that Global are closing their studio in Wrexham, including the Capital Cymru station, which will mean 12 jobs are lost at the site. Global, of course, will have their commercial reasons for this decision, but that will mean less Welsh language broadcasting, which, of course, is a blow for Welsh speakers and learners alike. So, Cabinet Secretary, what do you think the Welsh Government could do to make the media landscape in Wales more attractive for operators of Welsh-medium radio and television, not necessarily direct intervention or direct support, but making that landscape more attractive for them, both on a commercial and, perhaps, at times, on a non-commercial basis? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Sam Rowlands for the supplementary question.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I, too, regret the decision that has been made by commercial radio broadcasters to withdraw from the provision of local content, including content through the medium of the Welsh language. Their ability to do that was created in the 2024 Media Act, which removed the obligations that were previously there to provide such content, and removed the role of the regulator, Ofcom, in overseeing any changes to the plans that those companies had submitted prior to winning licences. So, it is very much a matter of regret. The companies will say, as Sam Rowlands said, that it's a reflection of the rapidly changing nature of broadcasting, where fewer people are listening to conventional radio, and more people are getting their information and their entertainment from a wider range of outlets.

I think it probably is important to put it in the wider context of the success of Welsh language media in Wales—and it's been a very strong success as well—with Welsh language content heard on Netflix, where S4C has successfully sold series for which they've been responsible for broadcast in the Welsh language in America, in Canada, in Japan, in parts of Europe. And the memorandum of understanding to which I referred has been a really important part of that, between Creative Wales and S4C. At a much more local level, the Government has invested in hyperlocal media, following advice from Senedd committees, and through my budget, in my Welsh language responsibilities, we continue to provide and, indeed, to extend next year, I hope, support for papurau bro, which means that there is Welsh language content available through people's doors in those parts of Wales where Welsh is most often spoken. So, while I regret and regard as a backward step the decisions that have been made to which Sam Rowlands referred, I also think that there is very strong and successful activity in this area, which the Welsh Government continues to support.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the importance of the Welsh language being prominent in the mass media to the effort to have a million Welsh speakers by 2050? OQ62196

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Llyr Gruffydd, Llywydd. The media is a big part of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy and broadcasting has an important role in ensuring the Welsh language is visible in order to help us achieve our vision. It’s vital that we protect and develop the language in broadcasting and the media.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

You're right—it is important that we develop the Welsh language in that context. But, as you mentioned earlier, the new Media Act, which came into force through the Westminster Government, has undermined those efforts, because, previously, commercial radio stations, under Ofcom rules, had to provide content that reflected the cultural nature of the area receiving that service. That was, therefore, the backbone of Welsh-medium broadcasting, particularly in areas such as the north-west of Wales. And now we see that Global radio is bringing the Capital Cymru service to an end. That station will disappear and, therefore, put an end to Welsh language commercial broadcasting in Wales, and that, of course, will undermine the efforts to reach a million speakers.

Now, you have listed a number of examples of what needs to happen, but would you agree with me that the best way now for us to restore the situation in this specific context, in terms of the new Media Act, is to devolve broadcasting fully to Wales so that we can safeguard those elements in the Welsh legislative context?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Llyr Gruffydd for that supplementary question, Llywydd. We're very disappointed about the decision by Global to bring Capital Cymru's Welsh programming to an end. The Welsh Government recognises fully how essential Welsh programmes on the radio are to maintain the Welsh language by encouraging new learners, and their importance to audiences across Wales. When the Bill was going through Westminster, committees here and the Government—Dawn Bowden at the time—wrote to the Cabinet Secretary in Westminster to draw specific attention to the risk that the Bill posed to radio broadcasting in the area where we have just seen problems arise.

Of course, I'm aware of what is in the programme for government in terms of devolution in this area. I'm aware of what was in the agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru at the time, and I did hear what Jack Sargeant said on the floor of the Senedd last week. He is still gathering information, looking at the evidence, and, as he said, he is open to a number of pathways to the future where we could better protect these things here in Wales than we could under the Act that has just been passed in Westminster.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Reports that the six nations championship will not be shown on free-to-air television from next year are a cause of concern. On this side of the Chamber, we have been clear that the six nations should continue to be a protected event, staying on free-to-air television because of its importance to our culture, our language and also to the ambition for a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

One of the greatest pleasures of the six nations is its ability to bring people together. Given the pressures facing the pub sector in Wales, perhaps there might be a very, very small silver lining to this news. The number of subscriptions needed by pubs to show live sport is staggering, and the costs are high. If the six nations truly is to move away from free-to-air television, will the Welsh Government consider what it can do to mitigate the financial burden on pubs in Wales that do show these games? Support would help towards the ambition of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Sam for the question, Llywydd. But the first thing for us is to protect the situation that we have at present, where people can view the games on tv. The problem is when we open things up to the market and think that the market is the best way to provide services for people. We can see that that is not true in the areas that are very important to the people of Wales. And the policy of the Government is to protect the current system, and that's what the work that we're doing will focus on. And, Llywydd, I think you've agreed to have a specific question on this subject later this afternoon, and the Minister will be able to, I'm sure, respond to the points that Sam Kurtz has raised.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I visited Ysgol Glan y Môr recently, and I spoke to one new Welsh speaker—a pupil there—who said that what would encourage him to speak more Welsh would be to play EA Sports FIFA through the medium of Welsh. Now, I contacted EA Sports, and they responded by saying:

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

'Unfortunately, it will not be possible for us to include the Welsh language in EA Sports FC 24. Although we publish the game in 85 countries, EA Sports FC 24 is translated into 19 languages’—

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

—adding that it would take two years for them to prepare a Welsh-medium version. There was a group of children from schools at the far end of the Llŷn peninsula here on Tuesday, and they said that they would be keen to see Roblox, Fortnite and Minecraft available through the medium of Welsh. So, there are plenty of things, through this new media, that we could promote. Would you join with me in putting pressure on these organisations—FIFA, EA Sports, Fortnite and Roblox—and try to get at least one of them to provide their game through the medium of Welsh for children who want to use those services?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Of course, Llywydd, I'm content to raise the points that have been raised by the Member. Having gaming available through the medium of Welsh is vital for people. As Mabon ap Gwynfor said, when the sector is changing so quickly, it's important for young people to have the things that they enjoy and which are available to them in English available in Welsh as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, as the person holding the levers around taxation here in Wales, do you think we’ll ever see people pay less tax under a Welsh Labour Government?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, there are examples in the current very limited tools that we have in Wales where people in Wales do pay less tax than they do elsewhere in the United Kingdom. People in Wales pay less income tax than they would were they to live in Scotland. They pay less in land transaction tax than they would if they were living in England. So, there are examples already there of exactly the point that the Member raises. However, let me make the point to him: I don’t share what I imagine is behind his question, this idea that low taxes are by themselves a sign of a healthy society. We pay taxes, as people say, as the entrance price to a civilised society, because it’s the taxes that we pay that provide the services that the people that the Member represents, and we all represent, rely on day in, day out. In some ways, we have to rehabilitate that notion with people. The reason people are asked to pay taxes is that that creates the collective resource from which we are all able to benefit.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for the open response, Cabinet Secretary. Another notion that taxation could represent is the ability to trust people with spending their money in a way that they see best. I wonder what it is, if you could describe, that makes you think that people in Wales can’t be trusted to spend their money in the best way possible for them and that makes you think the Welsh Government can spend it better on their behalf.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I think that would be a real parody of what has happened in Wales in the period of devolution, Llywydd, because what successive Welsh Governments have done is to act in ways that leaves money in people’s pockets for them to be able to decide how to use it. If you live across the border, you now pay nearly £10 for every single prescription that a doctor writes for you. Here in Wales, we leave that money in people’s pockets. We leave it with them so they are able to make decisions about their priorities in their own lives. In fact, if you look at the record across the quarter of a century of devolution, what you will see is successive Welsh Governments acting to do exactly what the questioner has put to me.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you again, Cabinet Secretary. Clearly, we’re going to be disagreeing on these things, and it’s part of the reason why we’re on opposite sides of this Chamber. We would argue that people should be trusted to spend money in the way that they believe is best for them, and the Government should provide the public services that are absolutely necessary to support them with that, not on pet projects and frivolous ideas. This last week, Cabinet Secretary, you recently shared that you believe that Wales has too many hospitals and too many beds. As the person responsible for the finances of the Government here in Wales, is that, therefore, an indication of the direction of travel that you’re going to persuade your colleagues to go down, to spend less money on hospitals and less money on beds here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, the answer to that question is very obvious in the draft budget, Llywydd, because the department in the Welsh Government that gets the largest increase of any is, of course, as you would expect from a Labour Government, the health service. And that will be no surprise, because, over the period of devolution, that has always been the case. In the latest figures—figures published by a Conservative UK Government—Welsh health spending was higher than in England, grew faster than in England, and spending on social services in Wales was 37 per cent higher than in England. The facts speak for themselves. Here in Wales, we have always placed the highest priority on investment in our health and social care system. That is continued in the draft budget that will be before the Senedd for final determination on 4 March.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, when you were before the Finance Committee last week, you described the UK Treasury’s plans to distribute reimbursement on national insurance increases in the public sector as 'fundamentally unfair', as it could lead to Welsh public sector employers not being covered to the same extent as those in England. You also stated that the application of the Barnett formula, with respect to NI reimbursement, was not 'a commonsense reading' of the Chancellor’s intentions.

So, what’s been the response of the UK Government to date when you’ve raised these matters with them? And have you made an assessment of how this potential shortfall will impact on the Welsh Government’s draft budget?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

We continue to be in dialogue with the UK Government on these matters, Llywydd. I stand by what I said in the Finance Committee, that if the help for public services is distributed through the Barnett formula, rather than actual expenditure being reimbursed, that would not be in the interests of Wales. I’ve made that point very directly to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and will continue to make it to him.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that response. Like everyone else, I'm sure, I want to know what they’ve said so far, and how hopeful you are, or are you genuinely concerned that they’re not listening? Because another concern that you’ve heard many times from me, and from a number of the other Senedd Members, is the concern regarding the impact of the national insurance changes on organisations in the third sector and charities. Of course, they’re coming to us talking about the cuts that they will have to make. So, I just want to know how you are working with charities and the third sector to understand the real impact of this on them. And what assessment have you made in terms of what the cost of a reduction in their services would be to our public services and Welsh Government targets in a variety of areas?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, what the UK Government are still saying is that they are working on the funding that will be provided to mitigate the impact of the increase in national insurance in the public sector. So, we will receive support from the Government in Westminster; the debate is how that support will be provided to us, and we are still negotiating that with them.

Of course, we’ve heard what people in the third sector, and others, are saying about the impact of the planned changes by the Westminster Government on them. That is why we are increasing the third sector support grant in Wales by 7 per cent over the ensuing period, and that is contained within the draft budget that is before the Senedd. But, just to be clear—and I was trying to be clear in front of the Finance Committee—I can’t find the money to help every department and every agency where the impact of the Westminster Government's changes will be felt.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that. Evidently, we want fair funding for Wales, and a reform of the way in which we are funded.

If I could pursue another element of your portfolio responsibilities, namely the Welsh language, last week, the results of the annual survey by the Office for National Statistics were published, which indicated that only 27.7 per cent of people aged three or older could speak Welsh—the lowest percentage that has been recorded for over eight years. This, of course, follows the decline seen in the last census. In light of the Government’s target in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050', this must be of concern to you. Of course, we’ve seen the response from the Government and the Welsh Language Commissioner, talking about the need for better data, and we heard that following the census as well. So, when will the data issue be resolved, because how can we measure progress, and scrutinise the progress of the Government, in terms of the 'Cymraeg 2050' target if we can't even trust the data?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, on that first point that Heledd Fychan made, there will be an opportunity for Plaid Cymru to demonstrate the importance that they place on investment in public services in Wales when the final budget comes before the Senedd, where £1.5 billion of additional investment will be available to public services here in Wales. I look forward to seeing Plaid Cymru supporting the budget on that basis.

I agree with what Heledd Fychan said about the importance of data. We continue to talk to the ONS, and work is progressing between those people working within Government and those working in the ONS to try to get behind the data that we have at present. Members here will be aware of the fact that the ONS has faced a number of problems recently in terms of data, and that is having an impact on the annual population survey, which was published last week.

The chief statistician officer has recently published a blog setting out what she and the ONS have done and are doing, and setting out the work that will be done in future. I look forward to seeing that work, because I do agree with what Heledd Fychan said: without the data, it's very difficult to see what's happening on the ground and what we, as a Government and as a Senedd, can do to help to increase the number of people who can speak Welsh and, as I always say, who use the Welsh language on a day-to-day basis.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the invest-to-save scheme? OQ62195

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The invest-to-save programme has supported approximately 200 projects with an aggregate value of around £200 million. Funds are being used to support projects related to green growth and care-experienced children. Ministers are currently considering a large-scale invest-to-save scheme to help decarbonise our strategic road networks.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply? I've been a long-time supporter of invest-to-save. I support the provision of interest-free loans with flexible payback periods to public services, with the aim of helping them to transform the way they work through supporting the direction of new and proven ways of working, increasing efficiency and effectiveness and lowering costs. Whilst large sums of money were spent using invest-to-save to fund the creation of Natural Resources Wales, most has been used to increase efficiency and reduce costs, such as light-emitting diode lighting. Can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the successes that have been achieved, especially in health, are being shared and replicated across Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Mike Hedges for that question and for his consistent support of the invest-to-save programme. He's absolutely right, Llywydd, of course, that the investments we are making in the public sector cover a very wide range of individual schemes in the green-growth area: solar photovoltaics, wind turbines, upgrades to insulation and to glazing. In the health sector, as Mike Hedges mentioned and will know very well, we have a solar farm at Morriston Hospital in Swansea, which was funded through the invest-to-save scheme because it will save the hospital £1 million every year in its electricity bills, and that's only one example of work that's going on in the health service this year. There are two decarbonisation programmes in Cardiff and Vale and in Powys Teaching Health Board, both of them using invest-to-save funding.

Just to say, lastly, Llywydd, that Mike Hedges made a really important point: the reason why the invest-to-save scheme is a success is that it's a circulating fund; the money comes back into the fund and then can be reinvested. So, while the fund has been topped up at various points, what it really relies upon is the success of schemes in releasing revenue, where that fund can be topped up and reinvested in future activity.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, you'll always get Members on this side of the Chamber celebrating thrift and efficiency, and we welcome the invest-to-save scheme, and always have. You gave an indication as to the total investments that have been made, but what you haven't been able to share today, other than the saving at that one particular hospital, is the total savings that might have been generated as a result of the scheme. Is that something you're able to share with us?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I probably can't do that accurately enough this afternoon. I’m very happy that those figures can be made available to Members. The leader of the opposition won’t be surprised to learn that, during the COVID period, there was less of an ability on behalf of public authorities to come forward with invest-to-save schemes, and the money was targeted, therefore, at services for children. The advocacy service for parents, which is designed to make sure that the voice of parents is heard at the point when children might be on the edge of being received into public care, is an example of that. I have talked with my officials recently about, in the post-COVID era, beginning to build the fund back up again and to invite new suggestions from public sector partners as to how we could use this way, as the Member said, of making sure that public money is being used as efficiently as possible.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the future of the Barnett formula? OQ62221

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Alun Davies for that, Llywydd. We have long argued that resources should be allocated across the United Kingdom on the basis of relative need. Our priority in the near term is to ensure that the current funding formula delivers for Wales, by focusing on budget flexibilities and fair funding for rail.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I think many of us, having watched the Chancellor speaking this morning on growth, will have noticed her focus on the south-east of England, and that’s likely to lead to more and not less equality across the United Kingdom. But we’re also aware that the UK Government has announced a review of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, and, in announcing that review, has excluded financial assistance powers from it. That is likely to lead to more confusion and less coherence in the way that funding is allocated across the United Kingdom. And, at the same time, we saw the announcement last year on changes to the funding formula for Northern Ireland. I am aware, Cabinet Secretary, that the Northern Ireland Executive has just appointed Gerry Holtham to undertake a review of their own funding arrangements. Given all of those different matters, is it now the time for a more fundamental review of how we fund different parts of the United Kingdom, with an objective of fairness and reducing inequality across the whole of the United Kingdom for the future?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Alun Davies. I too saw that Gerry Holtham had accepted an invitation from the Northern Ireland Executive to help them in conducting an independent review of the level of funding needed in Northern Ireland. I agree with what Alun Davies has said, Llywydd, that there could be merit in exploring a similar piece of work, and seeing the extent to which Professor Holtham might be able to assist in that, given the success of the work that he carried out here in Wales over a decade ago.

I believe there’s a question on the order paper later this afternoon from my colleague on UKIMA. I’ll give you a small preview in saying that the Welsh Government argued for the inclusion of financial assistance powers within the review of UKIMA. Of course, we’re very glad to see that review being brought forward, because it’s a piece of legislation that we have long argued does not operate in the best interests of Wales.

But to go to the fundamental point that Alun Davies has made, the purpose of funding flows across the United Kingdom surely has to be to ensure that spending power is fair across the different parts of the United Kingdom, and that an equivalent level and quality of public goods can be delivered in all parts of the United Kingdom. And that’s why differential funding is needed, because it needs to match need. The idea of that funding then is to make sure that a citizen in any part of the United Kingdom is able to expect an equivalent level of public service. And those of us who believe in the United Kingdom know that that is one of the fundamental building blocks of a successful United Kingdom to which citizens would choose to belong.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that I've stood up in this Chamber on several occasions calling for the Barnett formula to be reviewed. It's quite clear that the Barnett formula has been a contentious issue for UK Governments of all colours, because any changes to that formula would see other parts of the UK lose out on funding, and understandably that is a difficult situation for any UK Government. Cabinet Secretary, given that there still appears to be no appetite to reform the Barnett formula from the UK Government, can you tell me how you believe this issue can be addressed once and for all so that there is some fairness in the way devolved governments in the UK are funded?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I remember the many occasions on which Paul Davies has made that case. Of course, in calling for reform of the Barnett formula he was echoing what Lord Joel Barnett himself called for many times later in his career.

We set out in ‘Reforming our Union’ our case for replacing the Barnett formula with a new rules-based funding system overseen through a new fiscal agreement. The key thing is—and this is the dilemma to which Paul Davies pointed—that such an agreement would have to be approved by all four governments in the United Kingdom, and there are different interests at stake between the four governments, so it is not an easy matter to see how fundamental reform of Barnett could be brought about.

What we've always done in Wales is to use the power of argument. We don't have some of the things that other parts of the United Kingdom can use to draw attention to their views. Scotland has always had the possibility that it might choose to leave the United Kingdom, which means that the UK Government will want to listen to what they have to say. We don't always have the same tools in our armoury, but what we've always had is the quality of the arguments that we're able to make. [Interruption.] Well, I believe you've tried that several times now at successive elections, with results that are plain to see.

What we have to rely on is the quality of our argument. To be ecumenical across the Chamber for a moment, I will say that it was the power of that argument that led to the agreement in 2016 of the fiscal framework with a Conservative Government in London. The block grant has benefited from that agreement by around £2 billion pounds over the period that has followed, and will be £400 million pounds higher in Wales's favour next year than had that agreement not been struck. That agreement mitigates the difficulties of the Barnett formula for Wales, but it doesn't resolve them. But it does show that you can make progress when the quality of the argument you advance convinces others.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I should just say that we'll happily put the tool of independence in the armoury of the Welsh Government after the next election, when the Government is led by Plaid Cymru. But in the interim, and when we're looking, of course, at the spending review the UK Government is going to be producing soon, the relative needs assessment that forms part of the way the Barnett formula operates for Wales now was set out 10 years ago, based on a report by Gerry Holtham from 15 years ago, using data from 24 years ago. Would the Cabinet Secretary accept that that assessment is now out of date, and would he convince his colleagues in Westminster that we need to update it? And if they're not convinced, can we produce it ourselves, so that the needs assessment reflects the Wales of today, not the Wales of a quarter of a century ago?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I'll set aside the hubristic start to the Member's question to agree with him that there is a strong case for updating the figures that lie behind the fiscal framework. The UK Labour manifesto at last July's election commits the Government to do that, and I look forward to seeing that being achieved. In the meantime, as I said in my original answer to Alun Davies, I think there is a case for us doing some work of our own, and, to the extent that he will be willing to be involved, to involve Gerry Holtham in that, particularly given the fact that he is going to be engaged in work for one of the other four governments of the United Kingdom.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

5. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to reduce the burden of annual high council tax increases? OQ62199

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question. The setting of budgets and council tax levels every year is a matter for democratically accountable local councils. I ask those local authorities to consider carefully the balance between maintaining services and the financial pressures on households, and to engage directly with communities on the decisions they make.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. For 26 years, you have held the financial levers here in Wales, and over that time, you did not, for three years, hand over the council tax freeze money that came from the UK Conservative Government. Conwy residents now are facing the alarming prospect of a third year of a 10 per cent council tax increase. They can't afford this. It's going to place an unbearable strain on pensioners, families and hard-working individuals already struggling with the cost-of-living crisis.

We're seeing public services in decline, public toilets closed, other essential services withdrawn. Quite frankly, Cabinet Secretary, my residents are fed up, and so am I. Some of them are having to choose between food and heating because of your withdrawal of the fuel premium they could claim. When will you look at funding our local authorities? When will you look at the funding formula, and will you consider going back and introducing a cap on how much local authorities can charge in terms of percentage increases on an annual basis? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you for those questions. Let me assure the Member that had there been a council tax freeze in Wales, then the increases in precepts that local authorities would need to make now in order to make up for that would well exceed those that councils in Wales are reporting as under consideration for next year. Even the council to which she referred is proposing an increase of between 6.7 per cent and 8.7 per cent, not 10 per cent at all. The draft budget includes an uplift for local authorities in Wales of 4.3 per cent, more or less double the current rate of inflation. As the Government here has always said, we will always be willing to listen to local authorities' proposals for reform of the funding formula when local authorities themselves are willing to agree on what those changes would be. Until the day that local authorities in Wales are able to come forward with a coherent and agreed position, there is nothing with which the Welsh Government is able to have that negotiation. If they're in a position to do it, I look forward to hearing it.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I know that councils are facing sleepless nights trying to balance their books. They have had over 14 years of cuts to public service funding. It was a decision made by the Tory UK Government. I know that previously, Conwy council's leader wanted to use the reserves rather than raise council tax, and cut education funding, and those were decisions that were made that really impacted that council. But thank goodness now we do have a forward-thinking council that's looking to build up the services. It shows how important it is, because last week, when we had no mains water, they had no reserves left for resilience to help local people, and that really impacts. I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, whether you would agree with me that if we're going to protect public services that are vital to our communities and to bring a decent life to our residents, we need to support councils and make sure that they're not chastised for everything they do. Because they're trying to do everything they can within a limited amount of budget. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I began my political experience as a locally elected member of South Glamorgan County Council, as a number of colleagues on these benches did too, and I've always had an enormous admiration for the work that local authorities do—and that's local authorities of different political persuasions. Local councils really are the welfare state of last resort, and the services that they provide are hugely important to people who often are facing real difficulties in their lives. It's why successive Welsh Governments have invested in local government far, far in excess of the investment that has been made by Conservative Governments in England. Tough as it is—and it is tough, as Carolyn Thomas has said—our local authorities at least have the knowledge that they have a Welsh Government that is on their side rather than regarding them somehow as the enemy.

I was very pleased to be able to agree a 4.3 per cent increase in the RSG for next year, but since the draft budget was laid, I've continued in conversations with the Cabinet Secretary responsible for local government, and with others, to see whether there is more that we might be able to do as we come towards the final budget, particularly for those local authorities who are furthest away in their own uplift from that 4.3 per cent average. I'm hopeful that it will be possible to provide that further assistance by the time we come to the final budget.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

6. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to allocating funding in the Government's budget to compensate third sector bodies that provide services commissioned by the public sector, in light of the UK Government's decision to increase employers' national insurance payments? OQ62212

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

As I explained to Heledd Fychan this afternoon, I'm not in a position to divert funding intended for devolved responsibilities to supplement non-devolved budgets. Next year, the third sector support grant in Wales will rise by 7 per cent, at a time when inflation hovers around 2.5 per cent. In that way, we continue to support the sector in challenging times.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I've attended meetings with a number of providers in my constituency and across Wales. There was a care home in my constituency that was facing an increase of £250,000 in their contributions. They provide services to the health board. We've already heard from Tenovus and Marie Curie in Wales that they are looking at an increase of around £0.25 million each because of this increase in national insurance contributions. The truth is that these bodies provide key services. If they didn't provide them, then the health boards would have to step in and provide them themselves, so that cost would fall to the public purse in any case. So, according to your response today, is what you're saying, in reality, because you can't compensate them, that we are looking to see these services either shrinking or disappearing and people suffering, as a result of a decision taken by a Labour Government in Westminster?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

What I'm saying is that there are decisions are to be made. Every week we hear Plaid Cymru calling for more money for everything: the arts last week, local authorities, the health service, free school meals. At the end of the day, we have decisions to make. As I explained to the Finance Committee, I can't prioritise non-devolved budgets. The only way to do that is to use the funding that we have for the responsibilities that we have here on the floor of the Senedd. We've provided more funding, as I said, to the third sector and to the other sectors, to help them in respect of the general things that they're facing at present. I can't find funding for things that have come from Westminster where we don't have funding to do that.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, as Mabon has pointed out, the increase in national insurance contributions is one of the biggest challenges facing the third sector in Wales. With already squeezed budgets, many organisations are struggling to make ends meet and are considering cutting services, staff, or both. Just this morning, I was informed that one of my local credit unions will be closing its branch in Port Talbot as a result of the increased costs of employing staff, adding further job losses to a town already struggling to cope. The Chancellor's decisions are having a devastating impact on employment and employers. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the UK Treasury about ways to support charities and organisations who provide a public service not necessarily using public funds and are struggling to cope with the additional burdens placed on them by the recent UK budget?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I understand the points that the Member has raised, and it is why, indeed, those points and others have been drawn to the attention of Treasury Ministers in London. I've raised them orally and I've written to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury setting out those concerns, the concerns raised by different organisations in Wales with us a Government. The Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, the meeting of finance Ministers from the four UK Governments, will take place in Cardiff next month, and that will be a further opportunity for Ministers from Northern Ireland, Scotland and certainly here in Wales to raise these issues again with UK colleagues.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

7. How will the Welsh Government’s draft budget for 2025-26 deliver on the four key priorities set out by the First Minister? OQ62223

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Lee Waters for that, Llywydd. The draft budget aligns the revenue support and the capital investment available next year against the four priorities of the Government, funding a healthier Wales, jobs and green growth, opportunity for every family and connecting communities.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Bearing in mind we had a £1 million settlement in capital spending from the last Government, the £175 million of capital funding delivered in this draft budget is 10 times the average growth in capital funding that's been made available over the last 14 years. That will allow investment in the maintenance of the NHS estate in new building and, of course, in crucial new scanners, equipment and digital technology. But, of course, every success brings its challenge, and you've said yourself that you're going to push the envelope further by maximising the borrowing capacity to add as much as possible to make up for that long drought in investment that we've had. So, what steps can be taken to make sure that the supply chains are able to deliver on time, that the skills are available to do that work, and that health boards are able to manage that expenditure on this fantastic investment bonanza that you've provided?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Lee Waters for that. He is right, Llywydd, there were two budgets in the last financial year. In the autumn statement, Wales received an additional £7 million for all our capital needs, and in the spring budget we received an additional £1 million for all our capital needs. The amount of capital we received in the October budget from the new Government outstripped all of that and, indeed, outstripped the increases in capital expenditure that we'd had from the UK Government over many years prior to that accumulatively—not just in one year, but if you added them all up, it was less than we received in October.

You do have to be careful as you turn the tap on on capital expenditure. We rehearsed this, I thought very usefully, in front of the Finance Committee last week, because there are other constraints, and supply blockages certainly are one of them—having skilled people on the ground able to develop plans and make sure that they're implemented. If you're not careful, what you do is you inject extra money into a constrained market and you don't get any more for your money; all you do is you drive up prices because the market is inevitably tipped towards the suppliers that are there. Now, we have over £3 billion for the first time to invest in capital projects in Wales in the next financial year. I have done my best to push that envelope to the further end of what I think can be successfully and efficiently spent in the Welsh public service, but it will need careful monitoring. It will need monitoring from the centre, as well as at local health board level in the case of the health service, to make sure that that extra money does result in the advantages to which Lee Waters pointed in his supplementary question.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government support for adults learning Welsh? OQ62214

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Hannah Blythyn for the question. Llywydd, £15.5 million is being invested in the national centre this year to provide opportunities for adults and young people to learn Welsh. The draft budget includes an investment of £16.7 million for the next financial year. This will allow the centre to expand its delivery in key sectors, such as education and health.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you for that answer. I started learning Welsh again as an adult when I was living in London. My taid was a first-language Welsh speaker, but my nanna was from Liverpool, and they didn't speak Welsh at home, therefore my dad never learned Welsh. I learned Welsh at school in my constituency in north Wales, but I wasn't able to take an exam. However, last summer I passed my first ever Welsh exam. I took the exam at Coleg Cambria in Wrexham, and the year before I did a summer course there. I also have lessons every week through the Senedd, but it can be difficult to fit learning around life and work. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, can I ask what is the Welsh Government doing to support more flexible learning for adults, from regular lessons to revision courses and online resources to conversations in the community? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, many congratulations to Hannah Blythyn on her use of Welsh on the floor of the Senedd and, of course, for her success over the summer months. And thank you for the opportunity to highlight the fact that the National Centre for Learning Welsh does provide online, face-to-face or hybrid provision on all levels for learners. Providing a variety of opportunities ensures that there are opportunities available for everyone to learn Welsh in the way that suits them best. And in doing that, creating opportunities for learners to practise and use the Welsh language in their daily lives is crucially important if we are to create confident new Welsh speakers. Welsh teaching providers offer a range of activities to support learners, including Sadyrnau Siarad, coffee mornings and study sessions that are appropriate for people who are learning.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that session.

2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be questions to the Deputy First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. The first question this afternoon is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans to tackle irresponsible dog ownership? OQ62198

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Peredur. I attended our annual responsible dog ownership and breeding summit on 24 October. This collaborative work involves multiple stakeholders, including enforcers and campaigners for dog welfare and for public safety. Can I say I'm very grateful to you, Peredur, for agreeing to sponsor our partnership event in the Senedd in April where the achievements to date will be shared?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, and it's good to have that co-operation with you on this, and to see the work going forward. As you know, Minister, the issue of dangerous dogs has been something I have constantly raised in this Chamber. In recent years my region has suffered some appalling tragedies in connection with irresponsible dog ownership that has led to fatalities and jail time for offenders.

I was hopeful that the Government could introduce legislation in this Senedd that would compel responsible dog ownership, and I have previously outlined how that could happen within existing powers. With a packed legislative programme and the next Senedd election fast approaching, it looks like that ship may have sailed. In light of that, the next best thing your Government could do is run a targeted awareness campaign within the next 15 months, with support from organisations such as the RSPCA, who have long called for such action to promote responsible dog ownership across the country. This could have a big impact on increasing community safety, which should be a priority, along with protecting and improving animal welfare. It would also go some way to ensuring that there is a consistent approach and set of outcomes throughout the country, because, at present, it seems there are pockets of good practice but not uniform. Could you please give me an idea of what you're planning to do?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Peredur, and also thanks to you and other MSs for your engagement and for championing this, because of the too many eventualities that we have had that have been terrible incidents, and they still happen, so we do need to address this. And you are right, we need to raise awareness, and in fact the RSPCA is one of the many stakeholders in that quite powerful partnership collaboration we have on responsible ownership. We have some excellent examples out there and we need to showcase more of these and then get them to be adopted, not as best practice but as common practice, and we've seen that within the meetings and the summits that I have attended. So, for example, I know we've discussed the local environmental awareness on dogs initiative within the Gwent police force area, and how we can extend that application across all forces within Wales, although some are doing a version of it but slightly different—that collaboration space and then share the best practice and learn from each other. The uptake of the responsible dog ownership courses, which, all credit to Blue Cross, are now working across all of our four police areas, are really powerful again, because they actually work with owners to identify early warning signals of irresponsible ownership and then to get into that space and work with them to actually develop responsible ownership approaches.

There's the influential work that is done by an organisation many of us know, Hope Rescue, in my own patch, in fact, near to Llanharan, in the community, and the support they give as well to mental health charities but also to dog owners, working with dog owners as well. And, of course, the key to this, actually, this collaboration as well, is also going to be bringing forward the Welsh Government-funded animal licensing Wales project, because that delivers a website, a new portal, that organisations and individuals can access—local authority, breeders and members of the public as well. And this also deals not just with responsible ownership, but also things such as illegal dog breeding, which is linked to this, and the raising of standards and conditions for breeding. So, there is much that we're doing. We need to sing that out louder and then make sure that this good practice is replicated right across the whole of Wales. But there's a tremendous amount of good work going on, and I'm looking forward to that event because we can showcase some of this.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I think we can all agree that responsible dog ownership means prioritising the welfare of the animal as well, and over the last few years, however, this Senedd has heard repeatedly how the greyhound racing industry fails to meet even basic welfare standards, and I have written to the Cabinet Secretary with the latest statistics regarding deaths and injuries on the Valley track. The Welsh Government's animal welfare licensing consultation saw two thirds of respondents in favour of a phased or imminent ban on greyhound racing in Wales. This provides new and irrefutable evidence of the strength of support for an end to this activity, with more people in favour of a ban than the licensing of greyhound trainers, owners and keepers, as proposed elsewhere in the consultation. So, Cabinet Secretary, please could you provide reassurances that the views of the vast majority of respondents will be your focus, while making a decision on the future of greyhound racing in Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Carolyn, thank you very much indeed, and also for writing to me, and also for relentlessly championing this important matter. And there are others in this Chamber as well who have also been very outspoken on this issue as well. As you know, we fairly recently, actually, published the summary of the responses to the consultation we did on the licensing of animal welfare establishments, activities and exhibits, and we are looking forward to sharing the next steps as soon as possible. I can give you that assurance. You point to some of the evidence and the views that were put forward. Look, we firmly acknowledge the strength of feeling around the questions being asked, including specifically on greyhound welfare. It is important that we now take the time to consider all the evidence that has been put forward—including, as you say, you wrote to me the other day—and then we can actually bring forward our next steps as soon as possible. So, Carolyn, thanks for the way that you and others have championed this issue and have put forward evidence. You continue to do so as well. I am looking forward to sharing the next steps as soon as possible, having published that summary of responses quite recently, and then considering all the evidence and the views expressed within that consultation.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reverse species loss? OQ62193

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Mark. The Welsh Government has now invested over £150 million in programmes like Nature Networks and Natur am Byth to restore our most precious habitats and our species at local and landscape scales. Indeed, Curlew Connections is one project that I know is close to your heart that’s received around £1 million to help reverse the decline of this very iconic species.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Yes, absolutely, and I was at the launch at the Royal Welsh Show. But the curlew you mentioned, embedded in the culture of Wales, is forecast to be extinct as a breeding population in Wales by 2033 without interventions. Due to the severity of breeding curlew declines in the UK and Ireland, there's growing widespread interest in the potential for headstarting as a conservation intervention to aid curlew recovery, with the release into the wild of birds that have been hatched and reared from eggs harvested from the wild. What consideration have you therefore given, or will you give, to the Gylfinir Cymru Curlew Wales paper, a framework for headstarting Eurasian curlew in Wales? Further, noting your meeting last month with a delegation representing the Gylfinir Cymru agricultural and environment scheme sub-group—after which they told me that you seemed to grasp well the multiple benefits that managing beneficially the curlew could bring to both the environment and people—what action have you taken following your recognition at that meeting that Gylfinir Cymru is an essential group with which to liaise, and your agreement to nudge the policy makers with whom they need to liaise?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Mark, thank you very much, and for the work that you're doing in championing this iconic species. We can sometimes be really pessimistic that we can do nothing on species like this, but I mentioned, I think it was last week, in a debate here, that I was out with the First Minister on the downs above Ogmore-by-Sea, and we were looking at one of the species that's also highly endangered, which is the high brown fritillary butterfly—a completely different species, but equally important because it's also linked to a type of habitat. There are three locations in the whole of the UK where this is critically endangered. There's only one where it's recovering—it's here in Wales, and it's because of long-term investment that we've done to turn this around. So, we can have hope.

Thank you for flagging the meeting that I recently had with Gylfinir Cymru Curlew Wales. I was delighted to do that, because I believe in working with people out there and looking at the evidence of what can actually restore and turn around the decline in curlews, as with our other species. There are significant challenges facing curlews. So, I'm actually going to be visiting later this year one of the most important curlew areas in Wales, to see myself upfront the excellent work that's actually going on on the ground now to benefit curlews, and, hopefully, I've got to say, to see and hear the curlew myself. I was at the event that you, and Alun Davies and others, sponsored last year; to hear it on the tape is not the same as hearing it in person, and too few people now are hearing this. The farmers don't hear it any more. We need to get back to that. So, I'm keen to work with the evidence. It was a good meeting. I'm very pleased to see new and innovative ways also that we are using technology to understand some of the challenges the species face. Mark, I'll keep that engagement going, and I'm more than happy to meet with you as well to discuss what we're doing in this space.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, as we've discussed many times before, the Gwent levels are a very precious area within Wales, and partly within my constituency. They support a variety of species, as you know, one of which is the water vole. They were reintroduced at Magor marsh, and have since spread across the levels, and there is ambition to spread them further on the levels, perhaps accessing some of the Nature Networks funding. But, given that they're in decline in terms of the areas that have water voles in the UK, I think it makes it even more important that we have this reintroduction and thriving of water voles on the Gwent levels. It's but one example of their value for different species and biodiversity. So, would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that it's very, very important that we protect, nurture and enhance areas such as the Gwent levels, and, particularly, protect them from the threats of unwanted and inappropriate development?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

John, thank you so much indeed, and for the work you're doing in championing the water vole, and the importance of focusing on species is because from that species runs that protection of landscape scale and habitats as well. It really works. I think probably one of the most powerful innovations that the WEL—the Wales Environment Link—have done is to actually identify individual Members and say, 'That's your species—champion and protect them', and then the habitat flows from that.

And the Gwent levels are critical, as we know—they're vital to us; they're vital for the species and habitat, but they are also vital for our own health and well-being as well. And you mentioned there the Nature Networks programme, which I think has been a tremendous success in actually helping the protection and the recovery of sites, and actually building ecological connectivity between sites as well: there is the Gwent levels writ large—it’s not just individual patches, but the landscape scale. It’s had an enormous impact. It’s developed more than 90 projects, with over £54 million awarded since 2021. So, we are putting our money where our mouth is. When we declared very early on that there was a nature crisis as well as a climate crisis, we backed this to the hilt as well. And that works in partnership with Natural Resources Wales and the National Lottery Heritage Fund as well.

So, I think we need to keep on investing, keep the way that we do it under review as well so that we get the best outcomes. But, yes, I think we should be deeply proud of the work that’s gone on on the Gwent levels.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Llywydd. I note the Chancellor's comments about economic growth being more important than achieving net zero. I feel that seems a bit rich coming from a party that clearly cares very little for economic growth and yet claims to be the party for tackling climate change. However, whilst striving for economic growth, it's crucial that it must go hand in hand with our journey to net zero and not come at its expense; growth and climate action are not mutually exclusive—we can and must do both.

Rachel Reeves's, the right honourable's, remarks at Davos, where she dismissed concerns about expanding Heathrow and other airports, whilst prioritising growth, suggest a dangerous shift away from the UK's climate commitments. With the economy stagnating, the Government cannot resort to short-sighted, pro-business policies that do come at the expense of our environment.

Climate policy cannot be confined to a single department or treated as a secondary issue—it must be embedded across Government. Achieving net zero by 2050 requires seamless co-ordination across transport, energy, agriculture, housing, education, health. So, what are your views on the Chancellor's comments about prioritising growth, and do you agree with me that the UK simply cannot afford to treat net zero as an afterthought?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Janet, thank you very much for that question. I can speak for Welsh Government and the pioneering work that we’ve done here in Wales, preceding my time here in fact, in the establishment of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. That’s the paradigm; those are the pillars, those are the principles, by which we view all growth.

We’re also very keen, by the way, on growth, economic growth, but it’s sustainable economic growth that does the right thing for nature, biodiversity and the climate as well—it’s not trading off one thing against another; it’s doing all things. We want to see more pounds in people’s pockets; we want to see more businesses expanding. And in fact, the opportunities there within, for example, the circular economy and what we can do in Wales, or in the future of renewables, including things like offshore and so on, all of these have great potential. So, rather than seeing it as a trade-off of one thing against the other, I think, Janet, the gist of your question is right, which is they all go together and they’re unpinned in Wales by the well-being of future generations Act.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. One key area for collaboration that could drive economic growth and progress towards net zero is Wales's energy infrastructure. Wales's grid is simply not fit for purpose to meet the 2050 net zero target, with limited capacity causing delays to really good renewable energy projects. Despite initiatives like the renewable energy infrastructure plan, progress does remain slow, and critical transmission upgrades are uncertain.

The independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales met three times last year, yet there is little clarity on what tangible progress they have made. Can the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on actions you are taking, working with the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, to implement the 23 National Infrastructure Commission recommendations?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, again, for that question, Janet. There’s good cross-Government work in this space, both with the current Cabinet but also with predecessors in this role as well. We’ve long maintained—. Sorry, I should say as well that this is work that is primarily within the space of my colleague Rebecca Evans, with the economy brief, et cetera, but I have a direct interest in this because of my role in driving forward the carbon agenda right across Government and the carbon budget agenda as well. So, all of us, as you rightly say—transport, energy, everybody—has to play their part.

We’ve been very clear consistently over many years that we need that connectivity to all parts of Wales, including the offshore potential that we’ve talked about, but also to parts of Wales that have not been able to benefit from that connection to renewables to date. We also need to look at those aspects, as Rebecca Evans has made clear, about local connectivity, local grid connectivity as well, so it doesn’t all rely on, if you like, the image of 80, 90, 100 years ago of one big network around the UK. There are some great innovations going on in that space.

One of the things that is clear and compelling is, as we strive to actually achieve carbon budget 2, itself very challenging, the acceleration that we will then need to do to carbon budget 3 will require significant expansion of our renewable energy and our decarbonised energy base in many different ways, and that will require that grid connectivity you’ve talked about.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Planning, of course, does remain a significant obstacle. Recently, I held a round-table of all the climate change and environment stakeholders, and planning was mentioned by everybody, with bureaucratic constraints stalling both major infrastructure projects and smaller scale developments such as the ongoing 3m limitation for heat pumps. Additionally, essential minerals like copper are critical for renewable technologies. I’ve already highlighted this previously, that Wales has an unique opportunity to lead in the mining and processing of these vital resources, strengthening both our economy and energy transition. How do you intend to work with the energy and planning portfolio to remove these barriers, position Wales as a technological leader, and accelerate that shift to clean energy? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, and it is a truly great question, because I’m really pleased to say the cross-Cabinet approach to delivering exactly the outcomes you’ve said has resulted—and my thanks to my colleague sitting to my right, as well as to Rebecca as well, and to Jayne in local government—in increased investment in the planning function. Because we’ve recognised that this is an obstacle, it’s a barrier to that sustainable growth that we were talking about, including within energy but also a wider range of planning issues.

I also made clear and had support from Cabinet colleagues in arguing the case that the other thing we need to unblock is the capacity issues with NRW over consenting and licensing as well. And I’m pleased to say that, both in revenue and in capital spending, we’ve been able to put significant amounts of money specifically into those functions—so, planning, licensing, consenting.

I think this is quite an exciting space, because if you can identify the obstacle and then decide you want to unblock it, and will in the means to do that as well, then you can significantly expedite the right decisions being made for sustainable growth—coming back to your first question—sustainable growth that also has the proper planning and environmental protections wrapped around it, but done in a way that will allow that growth to happen, particularly within our energy sector, which we know is a critical part of our path towards decarbonisation.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Prynhawn da. I want to ask some questions, please, about forever chemicals—the contamination, that is, that’s been left on landscapes across Wales by what’s known as PFAS, these substances. These chemicals have been linked to severe health conditions like cancers, immune system disruption, even infertility. The extent, though, of the contamination in Wales is unknown. We know from research that the worryingly prevalent amount of this contamination in drinking water and in surface water could be particularly a problem, particularly maybe in hotspots like landfill sites, former industrial sites as well, sewage outfalls. What assessment, please, has the Welsh Government made of the extent and scale of this contamination in Wales, including in drinking water and surface waters, especially in those sites like former industrial sites and landfills, where they’re most likely to be prevalent?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Delyth, thank you so much. And this really is something that we do need to address, and we need to address it in Wales, but also as a UK and wider global issue. The increasing awareness of this means we have to act. We know that PFASs, the forever chemicals, are linked, as you say, to a variety of health concerns because of the accumulation in the body over time. It’s not one exposure; it’s that constant exposure that we have, especially at low levels. However, the toxicity of those various substances is not actually well understood, as you know, because you’ve been delving deeply into this. So, the UK Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food is currently conducting an extensive review of the available evidence on the PFASs, and undertaking that very important health risk assessment as well.

Now, perfluorooctane sulfonic acid and PFASs—and I’m looking to my left here as well because I’ve got colleagues as well who are joined with you, like Jenny and others who’ve been pushing hard at this—have been identified as highly bioaccumulative. So, those two are listed as persistent organic pollutants under the Stockholm convention, to which the UK is a party. So, the use of these is prohibited in the UK, subject to certain time limit exemptions set out in legislation.

But to answer you directly on what work we’re currently doing, back in 2022, the Welsh Government's water policy team commissioned a PFAS literature review to understand the context and the risks that these chemicals pose here in Wales, and the report emphasised, not surprisingly, the need for additional further research. It provided a number of recommendations. It also identified a limited number of areas that present a higher risk of PFAS contamination in Wales, some of which have provided jobs over the years in urban areas and so on, and now we’ve identified there’s a risk there. So, in April 2023, the Health and Safety Executive published its regulatory management option analysis for PFASs. It is the most comprehensive UK analysis of these chemicals. It identifies the most common, most harmful uses of PFASs, and the measures we can put in place to control and manage them. And it does make a number of recommendations, one of these you’ll have come across before—so, for example, practical things such as limiting the use of PFAS-containing foams used by firefighters, but also things like textiles, furniture, cleaning products. So, we’ve got more to do in this space, and some of it is the evidence and the research, and some of it is the practical implementation of the recommendations.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you. That’s incredibly useful. Staying with the same topic, if I could ask about accountability, please. Because these substances have a nature that is indestructible, the clean-up is going to have to be robust. There will surely be a part to play for NRW, but also for local authorities and the private sector, presumably. I’d like to know where you think the ultimate responsibility and accountability will lie, because the polluter-pays principle, of course, is important, but many of the companies that created the waste have disappeared, and, sometimes, the contamination can’t be traced because either the paperwork doesn’t exist anymore or it’s been destroyed, or it’s been lost. So, what measures will the Government put in place, please, to tackle the contamination in Wales in terms of holding the ultimate responsibility? Who do you think would hold that ultimate responsibility for monitoring, for regulating and, ultimately, remediating these sites?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, you raise the right questions, because, ultimately, yes, NRW have a key role to play in this. So do our local authorities within the powers that they have. But if those companies are still in existence, then they clearly carry a responsibility for helping deliver any clean-up of areas that are identified. But, fundamentally, we’ve got to make clear, as I’ve said here before in the Senedd, that local authorities have that duty now to identify contaminated land within their areas. It’s under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, Part IIA. Sometimes, if a site is proven to have a significant impact—so, for example, to controlled waters—regulatory responsibility can pass from the local authority to Natural Resources Wales. Now, we have in the past actually established funds. In the absence of somebody else to do the clean-up, we have established funds to assist with the remediation of land that is contaminated. This is slightly different from the wider piece of that sort of cumulative effect within the environment, within things that are around us every single day. Now, we don’t have that fund currently in place, but neither do we have a draw on it. We do not have people coming forward and saying, ‘We need contributions towards this’, but, in the future, who knows? If sites are identified by the local authorities, and that burden becomes clear, and the companies do not exist, we’re going to have to consider that. But I would say first of all, from an ethical and moral point of view, if the companies are still in existence, they should be contributing towards clearing up.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I agree 100 per cent with you on that. If the companies are still in existence, they have a duty to take on that responsibility. I would like to talk more about that fund and the possibility of reopening that particular source. But to return to the cost of remediating these sites, research suggests that, if we look across Europe—because, as you’ve mentioned, this is an international problem—clearing up this pollution over Europe over a period of 20 years would mean an annual bill of around £84 billion, and that is across the whole of Europe. Now, these isles alone could face huge costs in clearing these sites too. In Wales, as you’ve said, NRW would have a role to play in those examples where the companies no longer exist or where we can’t prove where the pollution came from. But NRW is facing substantial budgetary challenges. So, what do you think the costs could be? And do you think that NRW would have sufficient funding to face that challenge or do you think that we would need to turn to the source that you mentioned earlier?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, I’m pleased, when we appeared in front of the budget analysis for NRW, we were able to identify specific lines of funding that are going into NRW for particular purposes. This isn’t one of them, because, as I say, there isn’t currently the demand to draw on it. I maintain this position on the polluter-pays principle, that where you can identify the legal person that has polluted an area, they are responsible. They were under European legislation, and that is the maintained position now. But, too often, we have seen that the public purse has had to step in, not just NRW with their regulatory function but, actually, the establishment of funds, such as the contaminated land capital grant programme, which ran for six years after 2005. Then, we identified another draw on it, so it was re-established. We don’t have that current identified need for it now, but who knows in future. So, rather than speculate, if you like—and I’m not trying to be difficult or obtuse on this—if we identify there is a need for this funding, we have to do it, but the first point of call should be on the polluter. And then, after that, we need to look at it, because then it falls on the landowner, and often the landowner will say, ‘Well, I can’t do this either. I didn’t know anything about this’. And then the public purse steps in, as I look to my right there.

The other aspect on this is we do have to work, as you rightly say, with the UK Government and across the European Union and others, because we believe firmly in the polluter-pays principle and we hold to that, and I think we can do that by working collaboratively across borders.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

3. How is the Welsh Government supporting vineyards? OQ62204

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Sam. [Interruption.]—not personally. The Welsh Government is pleased to continue to support the Welsh wine industry through the Food and Drink Wales drinks cluster, together with the promotion of the protected geographical indication status for Welsh wines. And, in addition, we also provide business investment through the food business accelerator scheme.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. Now, the award-winning Velfrey Vineyard in my constituency is a real gem, with PGI status sparkling brut and sparkling brut rosé. I'm also delighted to share with the Chamber that the vineyard is shortlisted in the Countryside Alliance awards’ best local food and drink category and I urge everyone here to vote for Velfrey Vineyard. The owner, Andy Mounsey, is also chair of the Welsh Vineyards Association. But not everything is as sparkling as it may seem, as your proposed deposit-return scheme is leaving a bitter taste in the mouth of Welsh vineyards. [Interruption.] There’s more, there’s more. Andy said, 'All of the customers responding to our survey said that they already return their bottles for recycling or reuse, so the cost complexity and concern caused by the inclusion of glass can have no upside as it’s impossible to improve on 100 per cent'. He added that, 'We would urge the Welsh Government to consider removing glass altogether from the DRS or, at least, ensuring that all Welsh wine production is exempted'. So, Deputy First Minister, will you toast the success of Welsh vineyards by heeding the advice of Andy, or will you tell them to put a cork in it and ignore their concerns?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Fair play. Fair play. Llywydd, I imbibed his words and I am drunk on his rhetoric. Well, well, well. Look, let me just begin by indeed congratulating Velfrey Vineyard in Pembrokeshire on once again being shortlisted for the Countryside Alliance awards. And I would encourage people to vote for their favourites. I have many favourites, personally, amongst our Welsh vineyards and regularly do my best to support them in my own little way.

Just to say, back in December 2022, the Food and Drink Wales wine special interest group launched a strategy for the industry, and a lot has happened since that launch. The strategy is unique, because it has been developed by industry, rather than led by the Government, although it has our support. And, as such, I have to say, it sets a real example for other sectors of what can be done. It's a real fine example of clustering, and very encouraging to see Welsh vineyards now working together to drive the growth within the industry. And just to say, Llywydd, the drinks strategy target to increase that sector's value tenfold, to reach £100 million by 2035, is looking more and more achievable—not least to do with my contribution, and yours probably as well. There are now more new vineyards in Wales. We've got over 40 individual vineyards, and many existing vineyards are expanding their vineyards as well. And we also, of course, co-ordinate, as you know, Welsh Wine Week every year through the Food and Drink Wales drinks cluster, and that really boosts buyers and consumers, and it attracts considerable press coverage. Our wine is excellent, it really is, and it's got a growing market out there.

You touched on DRS; it's an important thing. I've made it very, very clear that the reason we are proceeding in the way that we are is that we are already ranked second in the world for recycling. We need to go further with DRS with reuse, not just recycling. But, we want to work with the producers to support them, to make the most of these opportunities for resilient supply chains and, by the way, to decrease material costs, because if we can land this right and we're reusing rather than purchasing new all the time, with new bottles and so on, you can actually drive down costs, as shown in other countries where they've gone this way. But, look, as we bring forward a consultation on the scheme in Wales later this year, we will be continuing our very close engagement with industry to ensure that DRS works for Wales and to support producers to take advantage of the opportunities that this can bring, while addressing any concerns. We can make this work for Wales and for all of our producers as well.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

4. What is the Welsh Government doing to help tackle littering in Mid and West Wales? OQ62218

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Joyce. We continue to fund Keep Wales Tidy, who support communities and local authorities right across Wales. This includes conducting litter prevention trials and interventions, co-ordinating volunteer clean-up activities as well, working with children and young people, and encouraging positive environmental behaviours through our behaviour change campaigns.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Of course, we all know, Cabinet Secretary, that everyone has a part to play in keeping our communities clean and tidy, and a lot of people do just that. They actually manage to take their litter home or put it in the bin—amazing, I'm sure. So, I'm delighted that the Welsh Government has boosted its support for Keep Wales Tidy, with £1.2 million extra announced just this month. That money will help more than 2,500 dedicated volunteers go even further to make cleaner, greener spaces for everyone. And I'm sure you'll join with me in thanking those volunteers for picking up the rubbish that other people can't be bothered to put in the bins or take home with them. But, we do need prevention, too, and the incoming ban on single-use vapes is a huge win for the environment against plastic waste. Could you update us on how well businesses in Wales are preparing and adapting ahead of that 1 June deadline?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Joyce, and, yes, I join you in paying tribute to all of those volunteers—some of whom will be in this Chamber, I'm sure, who join those gangs of volunteers—who work with Keep Wales Tidy to do local clean-ups. It's really important, and it sets a behavioural norm, and it sends the message, as we know, as people pass by in their cars and go, 'Well done', they say, 'Yes, great; just don't throw this stuff away, please. Don't dump it; do what we are doing, so we don't have to tidy up so much in future.'

But, look, the £1.2 million of funding that we've put forward, I think, has been really welcomed. It will enable, by the way, in Mid and West Wales, project officer roles in several local authorities in the area to continue their work with volunteers and community groups and local authorities on litter and dog fouling and so on. There are over 35 litter hubs now in Mid and West Wales, allowing those volunteers to get on with it themselves. That behavioural change is not just relying on Keep Wales Tidy officers, but volunteers themselves going, 'Hey, we'll sort it out now. You go. Go and do somewhere else.' And that works really well.

On the single-use vapes, this is one of a range of measures that we've brought forward to tackle it at point source, to get ahead of it, and I can confirm that from 1 June 2025, it will be an offence to supply or offer to supply—including for free—single-use vape products to consumers in Wales. It aligns with bans elsewhere in the UK. We've worked together across the UK, but we've also worked and continue to work with those in the supply chain, because we don't have to rely on these single-use vapes, and there are some benefits that people will point to in vapes for those who are weaning themselves off, for example, nicotine and cigarettes and so on, but actually doing it in a way that doesn't destroy the environment and also doesn't attract some of these disposable vapes targeted specifically at young people. So, we have health benefits and we have environmental benefits, and we'll keep on looking for those interventions where we can do more, Joyce.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, a common issue that I come across is overflowing bins, and when I walk to my office in Newtown, there's a particular location where the bin's always overflowing. I even witness people putting rubbish next to the bin, so this, of course, is an issue that we can all raise with our local authorities. Sometimes I get responsive answers, such as more frequent collections or larger bins; sometimes I don't, because of those financial constraints. But I wonder whether there are other examples across Europe or the world that you could look at to overcome this issue. I notice in continental Europe that waste often drops down into an underground container. That would resolve the issue of overflowing bins, but it would also possibly be a cost reduction for local authorities with less frequent collections. I wonder if there are other examples that you could look at and consider piloting such schemes in communities across Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Russell. There are some really interesting ideas out there, but I'm going to hesitate from doing anything that looks like micromanaging bins across the whole of Wales. I can take responsibility for some things, but not for every bin. But there are some interesting alternative technologies out there. I think it's not just a role for Welsh Government, but actually the Welsh Local Government Association and the very strong partnership that exists within the sub-committees of the WLGA, looking at recycling, litter, et cetera, to explore some of these options, and to see then whether there is value in adopting alternative ways forward.

You are right: it's a right pain, I've got to say, quite frankly, when you see overflowing bins, and people with the best intentions then put it next to the bin, which then gets pulled open by the passing scavenging dog or whatever. Not that dogs should be out without a lead, by the way; that's another area of my portfolio. Peredur, yes. But it's an interesting approach and I think we should encourage the WLGA to look at this in their sub-committees as well.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve access to, and the environmental benefit of, canals in South Wales West? OQ62215

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Sioned. Canals contribute to the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales. Whilst canals are non-devolved, of course, the Welsh Government has funded projects to enhance the network, and these have included improvements to infrastructure and active travel routes along Swansea canal.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. Last October, I attended the opening of the phase 2 of the Clydach buried lock restoration scheme and the Swansea Canal Centre. The Swansea Canal Society does amazing work to bring this community asset to life. Canals run through many communities in my region, and I've also supported the Tennant Canal Association in their efforts to safeguard the Tennant canal, which is crucial to biodiversity, as part of this canal is a breeding ground for the fen raft spider, the largest spider in the UK and one of the rarest, and I am its species champion. Additionally, I've engaged with St Modwen, who own the Neath canal, which runs between Glyn Neath and Briton Ferry, and also Tŷ Banc Canal Group, a volunteer group based in Resolven that undertakes many duties to help maintain this stretch of the Neath canal.

The previous climate change Minister highlighted the risks associated with the reductions in funding made to the Canal & River Trust by the then Tory UK Government, such as the loss of sections of the canal network and the negative impact on biodiversity. For canals not owned by the Canal & River Trust, such as both the Neath and Tennant canals, the risk of losing access to and benefit from these canals is even greater. The benefits of canals touch on almost every portfolio within Welsh Government, so what conversations are being had across Government, including with the UK Government, to ensure our canal network is preserved, protected, supported and celebrated? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much for that supplementary. Can I just begin by joining you in praising the work of those many volunteers across our whole canal network in Wales, and across the UK, who do so much? I remember that the inception of the Canal & River Trust model was very much predicated on that idea that, if I recall correctly, the UK Government could draw on some real estate capitalisation, because they own some massive Treasury houses like parts of the Docklands in London and so on, and use that to drive investment, but also draw on volunteers and the goodwill that exists from volunteers who are interested in the archaeology of the canals, as well as wildlife, biodiversity, access, fitness, well-being and all that sort of thing. People have a real stake in this.

But you are right: my understanding is that a decision has been taken. I've got to stress that this is not a devolved matter, but the decision has been taken to review the funding model for the Canal & River Trust, so moving it from a 15-year period of tapering to a 10-year period, so that it's accelerated. We need, in Wales, to continue to monitor what we can do in our contribution to the canals, and that does, by the way, involve not insubstantial investment in things like the active travel network, but also, specifically, in places like the Montgomery canal, camlas Maldwyn, in biodiversity projects running into the hundreds of thousands of pounds. So, we do recognise the importance of these and we'll keep doing what we can here, but, meanwhile, I think it's vitally important that the UK Government work with the Canal & River Trust to make sure that that goodwill is translated into continuing investment, maintenance and, as some volunteers want to do, the expansion of the canal network as well.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I would firstly thank Sioned for raising this important issue, really. I would like to pay tribute to the army of volunteers working to restore canals across South Wales West, including but not limited to the Tennant canal and the Swansea canal. These historical waterways are not only part of our industrial heritage, but are also a key part of our future actions to improve biodiversity. Canals offer a variety of habitats that attract different species of flora and fauna all year round. Due to their linear structure, canals can also provide connecting corridors that create a link through urban and rural environments. Cabinet Secretary, what more can the Welsh Government do to support those seeking to restore our historical canals and waterways?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Altaf, and I can feel the love here at the moment in this Chamber, for the volunteers as well as for the fen raft spider, from the species champion. There is investment that we can enable, but it's also giving—. As I've outlined, there's the £100,000 that we've provided to the Swansea Canal Society via the brilliant basics fund to make infrastructure improvements at Clydach lock. I've seen it myself up close, it's fantastic to see and the work of volunteers there. There's the £128,000 that we've put into that stretch as well, of active travel funding to upgrade the towpaths alongside the Swansea canal. It's great to see that Neath Port Talbot have secured funding themselves for restoring and regenerating the Neath and Tennant canals. This is very positive, and I know they'll be keen to work with volunteers as well.

I suspect there'll be more that we can do in future around biodiversity, active travel and so on, so even though it is indeed a non-devolved aspect here, we recognise the value of the canals and rivers network to our wider well-being and the environmental gains, and the economic gains as well, because you walk up and down these canals from Clydach and elsewhere and you'll find the cafes, you'll find the pubs thriving on the back of them and so on. We're back to the wine again, the Welsh wine. So, they have multiple benefits.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I also want to outline the good work being done by the Swansea Canal Society. The canal was constructed between 1794 and 1798, running for 16 and a half miles from Swansea to Abercraf. Today, only 5 miles of Swansea canal is fully navigable, from Clydach to Pontardawe and from Pontardawe to Ynysmeudwy. The canal society, with its volunteers, has been involved in extending the canal and getting one of the locks reopened. I, along with many other Senedd Members, including Cabinet Members, was at the official opening earlier this year. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the canal society and their many volunteers? How can this good practice be shared out? I mean, far too often in Wales, we have great things happening and then they only happen in one place. How can we share it around the other canal societies?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Mike, you're absolutely right. I'm glad that you and so many Members were there for that opening of it. I've just got to point out that I do have a vested interest, as I've sailed every inch of that navigable canal, and others within south Wales, in my 17-footer, and I'm regularly out on expeditions exploring it. This is the best time of year, actually, in terms of seeing the wildlife, so I'd encourage anybody to walk, cycle and enjoy it and so on.

And we can spread it more. There's much work going on beyond Swansea and the Tennant canal, and so on, and all those volunteers. We can actually do that investment, as I've mentioned, in places like the Mongomery canal, camlas Maldwyn, using, for example, the Nature Networks fund for biodiversity there, so, into the hundreds of thousands of pounds in that area. So, we can definitely spread this, and I think one of the best ways of propagating this, I have to say, is through volunteer to volunteer, because what's impressive in this and the original conception of the Canal & River Trust is building on the goodwill, the energy and the knowledge and enthusiasm of volunteers. They were the ones who had driven the restoration of all of the canal network, from the moment they would have disappeared in this country. They were the ones who actually started it; they're the ones who are continuing to drive it and we need to support them.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to tackle fly-tipping in South Wales East? OQ62209

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Natasha. Fly-tipping Action Wales, a Welsh Government-funded programme, continues to work with local authorities in south-east Wales targeting fly-tipping hotspots. Successful surveillance exercises have led to prosecutions and other enforcement action. This includes supporting Newport City Council in successfully dealing with the notorious, I think it's fair to say, 'road to nowhere' site in Coedkernew.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. Mounds of rubbish, as you mentioned, rightfully, are piling up in Newport and are becoming an increasingly regular occurrence for residents. Not too long ago at a council scrutiny meeting, it was revealed that the city reclaims the unwanted crown of Wales's fly-tipping capital. A report found that more than 8,000 of the 42,171 fly-tipping incidents reported by all local authorities over the last year were, indeed, in the Newport council area.

One example of the ever-growing problem in our city was the mammoth mound of rubbish made up of nappies, bags, household waste and other discarded waste that was left on Factory Road to pile up. One local described the smell coming from the site as disgusting, with rats spotted scurrying around the site and a swarm of flies hovering over the pile of waste. After being reported numerous times and being raised by my Welsh Conservative colleague and Newport city councillor David Fairweather, I'm pleased to see that it's now being cleared. However, Cabinet Secretary, it should never have got to this stage. So, I'd like to know how the Welsh Government is specifically working with local authorities to combat this issue, which blights our communities, and if any extra support will, indeed, be given to Newport City Council, as it's clear that this particular area is a hotbed for fly-tipping. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Natasha. And, look, I think that headline for a local authority is deeply unwanted. I saw some of the coverage on that and I've seen some of the responses from some of the officers and councillors, that they've issued now more than 200—200—fixed-penalty notices for fly-tipping and waste offences this year, compared with only a few dozen in the years before. So, they're now going at it, which is really great to see.

What we can do as Welsh Government is continue the investment. So, the £1.2 million that we've put into the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme over the past three years really boosts that, and that does include strengthening enforcement action across Wales, as I've just described, employing new enforcement officers to target those well-known fly-tipping hotspots and building those robust relationships with local authority enforcement teams, so we have best practice, front-foot practice everywhere, and that includes delivering the enforcement outcomes, delivering prosecutions and other enforcements that, sometimes, are quite laborious, because it is like forensic analysis, but to pursue those fly-tippers as well. We've got to acknowledge that a majority of what we're seeing is linked to the disposal of domestic waste in fly-tipping. So, people have to take responsibility as well, themselves, individually. Who are they giving their waste to? Are they a licensed contractor? Do they know it's going to a dump, and that they're paying for that, not that it'll be dumped at the end of their lane? So, we'll continue to support this.

In your own area, there’s some stuff that we're doing in south-east Wales. In the Gwent levels, we're developing a future project working with communities, building on the success of the previous Living Levels fly-tipping project. We're working directly with Newport council as well. Fly-tipping Action Wales are working on doing more with signage and increasing surveillance activities. In the wider south-east area, we're doing work with Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr Tydfil on common land sites, working with NRW on that, at targeted locations where we know there's a problem in south Wales. And with Monmouthshire and Torfaen we're doing a similar targeting of hotspots as well.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

7. What guidance does the Welsh Government provide to local authorities to improve air quality for people living near opencast sites and quarries? OQ62191

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Delyth. Local authorities have a clear duty to ensure that the air environment is considered with any planning application made. Local authorities also have duties to improve air quality in their areas, using mechanisms including planning permission and enforcement, environmental permitting, statutory nuisance and compliance.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that. Living near a quarry can have harmful effects on your health. The Bryn quarry in Gelligaer has, reportedly, continued blasting operations, although its planning consent ran out at the end of last year. Residents living nearby have long complained about noise pollution from the blasts, vibrations in their homes and the dust, and it's the dust I wanted to focus on. Exposure to quarry dust can have hugely detrimental effects on our health; it's particularly harmful to children's lungs—it can lead to asthma—and in adults long-term exposure can be associated with heart attacks and strokes.

It is near impossible to get an accurate picture of how badly air quality is being affected by quarries. It doesn't help that quarry companies like that in Gelligaer self-monitor the air quality data. Surely we need independent monitoring in these sites across Wales, since some quarry companies have been accused in the past of underreporting emissions. Cabinet Secretary, this should, surely, be an early test case for the clean air Act. Would you look at this, please, and introduce changes to protect the health of everyone living near these quarry sites across Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Delyth. One of the things that may be of interest to you and to others, rather than rehearse the protections that are currently in place and our expectation as the Welsh Government that those are used, is that, since the 2024 Act, we've opened a consultation to update the local air quality guidance for local authorities to support them further in meeting their air quality obligations. We'd welcome anyone and everyone to input into this consultation; it's on our website.

But I would say as well that it's very clear that the potential impact on health must always be considered in relation to any proposal for aggregates extraction, and health impact assessments have to be carried out for such proposals where they're within 1 km of an existing community. Of course, something that we passed fairly recently in 2024, the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act, requires local authorities to monitor and manage air quality within their area.

So, those are in place; we need to make sure that they're being used properly. But if there are other proposals coming forward, as I've said in response to previous questions, I'm always interested in hearing good suggestions and evidence of a better way forward.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

8. What support does the Government provide for the growing of seagrass? OQ62213

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Mabon. We have invested £300,000 to support the recovery of seagrass along the coastline of Wales. This includes recent funding for the development of Seagrass Network Cymru’s national seagrass action plan, which sets out a vision for the restoration of 266 hectares of seagrass across Wales by 2030.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I welcome the recent announcement of more funding for Seagrass Network Cymru. The network does great work; I had the pleasure last year of planting seagrass seeds in Penychain with members of the network. Of course, seagrass not only helps nature and ensures that there are healthy fisheries along our shores, but they also absorb carbon dioxide at a huge quantity. But in addition to this funding, and the support that I appreciate has already been given, beyond that, what are you doing in terms of setting an ambition? What is the Welsh Government's ambition when it comes to seagrass, and what targets have you put in place in order to deliver that ambition?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Not only seagrass, but also salt marsh is important within this context as well. You rightly point out that this isn't the only funding that we've done. We've awarded, since 2021, nearly £852,000 of funding towards salt marsh restoration through the Nature Networks fund. These will contribute to our 30x30 conservation targets, without a doubt. As you know—and there's great support here in this Chamber for the seagrass network and seagrass project—we were delighted to put that additional £100,000 forward, but part of that will support the development of the national seagrass action plan. Within that, we can have ideas coming of forward about the level of ambition that can be done within Wales, rather than me arbitrarily saying, 'Here's the hectarage'. But even this funding on its own now will develop that 266 hectares more.

I visited, only a month or so ago, one of the sites that's crucial to this, which is in the industrial estate in Bridgend, where they're developing those little nubs that will be planted out—again, a theme today—by volunteers, many of them, right across Wales. So, this will contribute to our nature restoration. It will contribute to that marine environment. It will contribute to carbon sequestration as well. It has those multiple benefits. That's why we're pleased to put the investment in, and we're looking forward to them developing not only the national seagrass action plan, but part of this funding is to encourage others to be part of this, to bring other funders in. Because there's a great deal of excitement around seagrass, and salt marsh as well, and we hope that other people will say, 'Well, we want to be in this space, helping to fund the development of this'. Then we can lift the ambition significantly.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the topical questions. The first of those today will be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and will be asked by Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

1. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Cardiff University following the announcement that 400 jobs are to be cut? TQ1293

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

The Welsh Government has discussed the proposals with Cardiff University and we expect the concerns of staff, students and trade unions to be heard during the consultation. Universities across Wales make vital contributions to our communities, economy and public services. We need sustainable solutions to ensure that continues, including training healthcare workers.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for the answer.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I’d like to, first of all, declare an interest as my son-in-law works for Cardiff University. I think I’ve been—and I think we’ve all been—in a state of shock following the announcement from Cardiff University yesterday that it’s proposing to cut 400 jobs, leading to the closures of the departments of ancient history, modern languages and translation, music, nursing and religious theology. These are fundamental, essential courses that will just disappear. Four hundred jobs account for 7 per cent of the university’s workforce, and to lose that many high-skilled jobs will have a devastating and lasting impact not only on the individuals involved, but on the city and on Wales. It will result in thousands of students not coming to Cardiff to study, and this will have a knock-on effect on other industries that are reliant on students for their income.

I’m particularly concerned that nursing is to be one of the main departments that will be affected. The nursing course at Cardiff University is ranked first in Wales and fifth across the whole of the UK. According to the Royal College of Nursing, there are 800 to 1,000 students in the nursing school. To cut this number of nursing students, when it’s estimated that we are short of 2,000 nurses in Wales, I can only say is astonishing, and the impact of this will be felt right across Wales. Could the Minister ask the university to consider the Wales-wide impact of such proposals, particularly when the Welsh Government here is making such an effort to recruit nurses, and also has retained the bursary in order to keep nurses in the field? And also, does the Minister know if any other allied professionals will also be affected if this closure goes ahead at the school of nursing?

And then, of course, to lose the music department will be a huge blow that, again, will not just affect Cardiff. The loss of roughly 275 music students in the school will affect the whole of Wales and will affect the Welsh music culture. Last year in Cardiff we've already had the closure of the junior department of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, and this is a further blow to the arts in Wales. The head of the school has described this proposal as a dereliction of duty and a betrayal of Welsh cultural heritage. I've spoken to the union representatives and they feel they are at a loss as to how the university has come to this decision so drastically, with such essential courses being proposed to be cut.

One of the reasons given for this money crisis is the drop in international students because of the change in visa requirements, and I wondered if the Minister had any more details of the numbers related to this and what percentage has it dropped in Cardiff University. I'm also very fearful that these cuts would just be the tip of the iceberg. These are the academic jobs that are going. I think the university have said that there would be professional jobs that will follow that. Those will be jobs in the administration sections and in estates. I wondered if the Minister had any indication, or would be able to find out, what the university has planned for next.

And finally, what about the students? Could the Minister confirm that the students, who may be in the middle of their courses, will be supported in this very difficult period? Because you can imagine how devastated you might be if you're in the middle of a course and then you're told this course might be axed. I think the welfare of the students is something the university must consider.

In conclusion, our universities in Wales are absolutely vital. They're a part of the fabric of our society and they mean so much more than just thinking of teaching of students. I urge the Minister to do all she possibly can to see what the Welsh Government can do in order to prevent these proposals coming into effect.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank Julie Morgan for that question. We are aware of Cardiff University's recent announcement on plans to consult with staff and trade unions on compulsory job losses, and the potential closure of course provision. We understand that the university has entered a statutory consultation period with the recognised trade unions concerned, including the University and College Union, and this follows a period of dialogue across university departments.

I'd like to stress that, at challenging times such as this, I would expect institutions to adhere to the principles of social partnership, and that the trade unions and the affected workforce are involved and engaged in the proposed restructuring process, and that students affected by the proposed changes, which I believe include the teaching out of those courses, are fully supported.

I do recognise that the uncertainty is going to cause anxiety for many staff and students. It's essential that proper support for mental health and well-being is available to all those affected, and I know that trade unions and student unions will be making every effort to put that support in place.

The most important point, Llywydd, that I'd like to place on record in this Chamber this afternoon is that we need to see a review of how the HE sector is funded across the UK as a whole. That needs to take into account factors such as the impact of Brexit, changes to visa requirements, the importance of international partnerships and those UK Treasury rules that govern the student finance system, all of which are not in our hands in Wales.

I understand that some work is ongoing in the UK Government, and I expect the Welsh Government to have the opportunity to contribute to this review so that any findings are relevant to the needs of Wales, which will of course always be my primary concern. In fact, I spoke with the UK Government Minister for higher education earlier today to make these points, and we have further meetings arranged early next week to discuss this in more detail.

Sustainable higher education institutions of course are vitally important for the future of Wales. That's why we've taken the difficult decision to maintain the real-terms value of tuition fees in the last two years. That's why Welsh universities continue to be relatively well funded per student compared to other parts of the UK, and indeed internationally, and that's why we provide the most generous student support package to our students, to enable them to access HE whatever their background. That's also why we want to prioritise improving participation and attainment in our schools and colleges over the long term, so that we can increase the numbers of our young people who might aspire to go to university.

I do recognise, of course, the financial pressures that HEIs in Wales are under. Welsh Ministers, officials and Medr will continue regular constructive engagement with sector leaders on this. And to support universities, as well as increasing our tuition fees, we have provided up to £21.9 million in additional income to them, an additional £10 million also to the sector, bringing total grant funding to over £200 million in the current financial year.

We know that our universities are undergoing a significant period of, frankly, painful adjustment following the sudden recent decrease in international postgraduate enrolments. But higher education funding in Wales compares favourably to other UK nations. According to the London Economics research published in 2024, net higher education funding per full-time student home in Wales in 2023-24 was 18 per cent higher than in Scotland, and 22 per cent higher than in Northern Ireland. We expect our funding will be at a comparable level to England now that tuition fees are the same in both nations. So, we must work closely with the UK Government on developing a funding system for higher education that's sustainable, and works for universities, for students and for staff.

If I can turn, then, also to the issue of nursing that you raised there, Julie. Cardiff University has played an important role in our ambition for a sustainable NHS workforce for the future, and we are disappointed that nursing courses form part of these proposals. The Cabinet Secretary for health is working urgently with Health Education and Improvement Wales to ensure that we can train the same number of nurses in Wales.

And then, finally, just turning to the three specific questions that you raised with me, I can confirm that the university is proposing to keep midwifery, allied health professionals and other medical courses in place, and say that they would work to improve their other medical provision. And then, on your question on international student numbers, the data that we have on student numbers in the current and last academic year hasn't yet been published, but we do know from Home Office data that, across the UK, there's been a 14 per cent fall in student visa applications in 2024, compared to 2023. And a survey of 70 UK universities found that 80 per cent reported a decrease in international postgraduate enrolments in September 2024, and overall international postgraduate enrolments declining by 20 per cent. That data really does concur with what universities in Wales have been telling us, and their staff, about declining international enrolments this year.

In terms of your question about what other plans the university might have, the university hasn't advised us of any further restructuring plans. But I do want to re-emphasise that universities are autonomous of Government in making any such decisions.

And finally you asked about the wider impact of the proposals on Cardiff and the region. I've no doubt that responses to the consultation will focus on seeing these changes in terms of their impact on Cardiff and on Wales as a whole, which will of course then be for the university to take into account in their final decisions.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, these colossal cuts are devastating, not just for the affected staff and students—my phone has been bombarded by parents, who are concerned about the future of their children at Cardiff University. It's also going to have a tremendous impact on the local community, our economy and, ultimately, future generations. Financial problems and a drop in international students have been blamed for the drastic cuts—I can hear it, I can understand it, to a point. But it was really, really disappointing to hear a Welsh Government spokesperson shrug off any responsibility yesterday, by saying that universities are independent institutions. Whilst that's true, and I think we can all accept that to another point, is the Government genuinely comfortable sitting on their hands and allowing this act of educational vandalism to be taking place here in Wales? Because, quite frankly, I'm not comfortable with it.

In my view, the Government must act, particularly as this university is well known, and it's apparent to all of us it's going to be axing the nursing college, as our colleague mentioned a little while ago. It's going to be enduring a huge shortfall in the number of nurses that we're going to be bringing to the forefront here in the Welsh health service. In light of the nursing school's potential closure, what discussions has the Government had with the health boards in the immediate area in regard to their capacity to pick up some of the slack? Given that any benefit to a tuition fee uplift to universities has been cancelled out by an increase in national insurance contributions, what steps are being taken to ensure increased support for our universities through the budget happening here for 2025-26?

And in terms of the drop in international students, can the Minister explain the reasons behind this and outline—and you mentioned these in your previous answer, and I appreciate that—what role this specific Welsh Government is playing to market Welsh universities, both here at home and across the world, in a bid to boost student numbers? Of course, this is a developing issue—I can't deny that—with major ramifications, so an urgent statement I do hope will be brought to the Chamber next week so that we can properly debate this issue in more depth and detail. Thank you.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank Natasha Asghar for those questions. And you began by talking about the well-being of students, and I share your concern for the well-being of students. I know that the National Union of Students branch in Cardiff is very active and will be supporting students through this time. But I reiterate the point that I made to Julie Morgan: I think it is very important that all of us share the responsibility to ensure that the correct facts are available here and that the consultation proposes the teaching out of courses so that no students who are currently enrolled in Cardiff will be affected there.

And in terms of your question about discussions with health boards, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is working with Health Education and Improvement Wales, and they, in turn, have those discussions with health boards so that we can ensure that our workforce planning models for nursing and other allied health professions are fulfilled.

But it is really important that we recognise that this is not an issue just for one university here in Wales or for Welsh universities. The issues that we’re facing are issues that have been brought upon us, I’m sorry to say, by the previous UK Conservative Government. So, if we look at the lasting impact of Brexit, the inability that that has given to our HEIs to access research funding—that’s been absolutely catastrophic; the hostile environment for those coming into our country from overseas—that’s a direct result of the previous UK Government's visa changes; and then, of course, we have the rampant inflation that every vice-chancellor has raised with me—the effects of the rampant inflation caused by Liz Truss. [Interruption.] So, those are very important points for us to consider to ensure that we have the full context.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

The news from Cardiff University yesterday was absolutely devastating. And thanks to Labour in Wales, our universities are on the brink. Minister, what happened to education, education, education? I can tell you what: it’s been replaced by stagnation, obfuscation and deterioration. I am meeting union representatives and senior management from the university later on today, and I’m looking forward to hearing directly from them about the impact on jobs, announcements on staff, students and the wider community.

Now, that Wales’s biggest university is set to lose 400 staff is a shocking symptom of Labour’s chronic failure over 25 years to put our universities on a sustainable financial footing. Now, Wales, as has been mentioned already, has a proud record of being a learning nation. And whilst the university must rethink its plans, obviously, it must also be provided with the means to support its staff now and in the future.

So, what and when, Minister, did you know about this announcement? Despite the countless warnings about the financial sustainability of the sector, rather than providing crucial support, you are waving the white flag in the face of hundreds of redundancies, leaving the university sector to wither on the vine. You prematurely announced a transformation fund, only for that to turn out to be just smoke and mirrors. And after three successive years of cuts to the HE budget—three successive years of cuts—the draft budget for 2025-26 does not appear to offer any further investment to support the sector. Dare I ask where the money for this transformation fund is in this budget? Now, during budget scrutiny the week before last, the Cabinet Secretary for Education said:

'In tertiary education, the Minister...decided...to prioritise, ensuring further education and sixth forms can meet the needs of learners.'

Is that the official position of the Welsh Government, that you are content to abandon our universities in Wales? Just a few weeks ago, Welsh Government let the flames go out, alongside thousands of jobs lost at Tata in Port Talbot. We can’t let the same happen again to our universities. Welsh Government failed to act then. Minister, will you act now?

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cefin, for those series of comments. I will try to extract some questions from them so that I can answer. [Interruption.] As you know, we have—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can we have some—? Can we listen to the Minister's response? She's being heckled by her own backbenches at the moment.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I was heckling Cefin. [Laughter.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

But you were interrupting the Minister. The Minister, please.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Llywydd. As you will know, Cefin, we’ve provided over £200 million to the higher education sector in the current financial year, with an additional £10 million being awarded in the supplementary budget, and also other funding such as the Digarbon scheme, which I’m really proud of. I went on a lovely visit with the Deputy First Minister to Cardiff University to see how they’ve used the £12 million that they were awarded through that as well. So, I’m confident that the Welsh Government is supporting the sector as much as we possibly can.

You’ll be aware, of course, that higher education institutions are autonomous and that 90 per cent of their funding comes from outside of Government. You referred there to trade unions. I was pleased to be able to speak with representatives from the higher education trade union sector just this morning, and I will continue to have those conversations, which are really important to be having.

In terms of you going back to the issue of funding, as I’ve told the Senedd previously, discussion of a transformation fund for the sector was very much in early stages and it was one of a range of options that was considered for supporting the higher education sector. And we did conclude through the budget discussions that a transformation fund is not required for the sector at this stage. Instead, what we sought to do was to increase core funding for universities through the uplifts to tuition fees, in order that we could direct our core budget to support the priorities identified by the First Minister last summer.

But I bring you back to what I’ve already said is the most important point that I want to make in the Chamber today, that the answers to these problems, which are significant problems—these answers are found in a review of the higher education sector across the UK. And I’m really pleased that I’ve been able to discuss that with my UK counterpart, Jacqui Smith, this morning, and that she has agreed that the Welsh Government can work with the UK Government on that review, so that any findings are relevant to the needs of Wales, which will always be my primary concern.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

These are indeed radical plans, but they can’t spend money they haven’t got, and we are not responsible for the attitude of the previous Government that people were not welcome to come and study in this country. The issues involved are multiple, though. Particularly I want to know what the impact of the abolition of the nursing courses would have on the culture and appropriateness of the medical school’s training of the doctors of the future. I don’t know whether any conversation’s been had in advance with the Cabinet Secretary for health on this matter, because it really is a strategic issue, not just a numbers issue. Equally, if modern languages were no longer at Cardiff University, what impact is this going to have on our ambition to strengthen our trading partnership with the rest of the world, as well as strengthen our relationships with the rest of Europe, in light of the hostile culture emanating from the United States?

I think these are really significant issues, because we cannot simply arrogantly expect everybody to speak English. If we want to strengthen our relationships with these foreign countries, we absolutely have to have people who can communicate with them in their language, and, therefore, the Cabinet Secretary for economy is also somebody I’d like to see involved in these conversations.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Jenny, for your questions and your comments there, and I align myself completely with the comments that you’ve made about the value of international students. And that’s not just, obviously, the monetary value that they bring to our HEIs, but the cultural enrichment value that they bring as well.

With regard to your question about nursing, I understand that the Cabinet Secretary has written to the university regarding the points that you raised, and I’m sure that he would be willing to share that response with you once received. And you make an important point about the value of modern foreign language courses as well, and I’d like to stress to the Chamber that the Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring effective support on international languages across Wales.

Our curriculum officials are in touch with the university regarding the new Curriculum for Wales grant support programme and the proposals for delivery of that. And also I’d like to say that, although Cardiff University are not an accredited provider of initial teacher education, any loss of modern foreign language undergraduate provision could of course affect the potential number of prospective future MFL postgraduate certificate in education students across Wales. So, we will continue to assess any potential impacts on student teacher recruitment to MFL programmes as well.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I must say I’m hugely disappointed by your response, Minister, and, in particular, it seemed, listening to your initial response, that there is no problem—Welsh Government has done everything possible. Well, can I ask, therefore, why has the sector been asking the Welsh Government for years now to do more? You say they’re autonomous, but they’ve been asking for greater support. So, why hasn’t that been the case? And what are you going to do now that there is a UK Labour Government? We’ve heard about the partnership in power, but what Julie Morgan didn’t mention was the impact of the national insurance contributions adding to that bill by millions—a UK Labour decision.

So, you must take some accountability in terms of decisions, and also an acknowledgement that Labour has been in charge of education for nearly 26 years. So, we don’t want excuses. We want to know what the plan is. And as my colleague Cefin Campbell asked: what did you know, and when? Because this hasn’t happened overnight. We knew, in the opposition, that this was an issue that needed to be dealt with. We’ve been calling on Welsh Government to do so. So, why haven’t you done so? Why have you let it get to this point?

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

And as Plaid Cymru spokesperson for the Welsh language and culture, I’m also hugely concerned about the cuts to music courses, and merging the school of Welsh with other schools, and the impact that this will have on our national language and culture. The university’s Welsh language strategy—'Yr Alwad'—commits the university to providing a Welsh language offer, in the community and culturally, that adds to and improves research, teaching and the general international ambitions of the university.

So, Minister, can you commit to working with the university and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in order to ensure that the provision of Welsh as a subject and a medium of education isn’t negatively impacted by these proposed cuts?

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Well, thank you, Heledd, for your questions there, but I’m sure, if you look back and read the transcript, you will see that I’ve said at various intervals during this exchange that this is a serious problem for the HE sector here, not just in Wales, but across the UK. And I am sure that I have placed on record as well how important the sector is to us here in Wales, and my intention to work as closely with them as possible to support them. And I'm confident that we are doing all we can as a Welsh Government here to support that sector. Yes, we’ve just had the best funding settlement that we’ve had since devolution from the UK Labour Government, and that, of course, is fantastic news, but, after 14 years of austerity, what we’ve received can only just begin to scrape the surface of the problems that we are facing. And you can shake your head, but I know that you know that that is absolutely factually correct. You asked about when we knew about these proposals—and apologies, Cefin, I forgot to answer that question when you asked it yourself—I can confirm that both myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care were told about these proposals last week.

Finally, on the point you raise regarding the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, I can absolutely commit to working with them in the future to safeguard the future of Welsh language provision.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I’m grateful to Julie Morgan for raising these matters and to you, Minister, for your response. Higher education is fundamentally important to our wider economy, of course, and the contribution of higher education institutions is important to all of us, wherever we happen to represent. The news yesterday from Cardiff, of course, follows on from the news we had in west Wales, with the Lampeter campus losing its undergraduate teaching. And we’re seeing disruption and a weakening of the higher education sector as a consequence both of difficulties in funding and UK decisions on immigration—you’ve addressed that already—and it is important, I think, that we now consider that wider context. And my question to you, Minister, this afternoon, is: will you look at how we fund the fundamentals of university education and higher education, because I’ve never been a believer in the tuition fee system, I’ll tell you that now from the start. I’ve always felt that tuition fees are the wrong way to fund a fundamental part of our education system. For me, I would much prefer to see some sort of graduate tax approach to providing security for higher education into the future, but also ensuring that the taxpayer is able to demonstrate that we can invest not simply in the institutions, but in the people, in our society and our economy, so that we invest in higher education as part of our investment in the people and places and the future of this country.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Well, thank you, and I think Alun Davies is absolutely right in saying that we need to see this issue in its widest possible context, and that’s both in terms of the funding issues that we face across the UK, but also in terms of the economic, educational and cultural benefits that our higher education institutions bring to not just the areas they’re located in but the wider regions as well. So, obviously, Alun, your community of Blaenau Gwent and my community in Cynon Valley, we all benefit from the richness of the tapestry of higher education institutions that are on our doorstep and accessible to those constituents that we represent. I am open to any and all discussions on the wider context of higher education, how the sector is funded and how we can ensure that there is a sustainable system moving forward. So, I am really keen, anxious and looking forward to those discussions that myself and my officials will be having with the UK Labour Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership and to be asked by Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that the interests of Welsh rugby fans are prioritised in any future broadcasting agreements, following recent reports regarding TNT Sports' potential bid for the Six Nations TV rights? TQ1288

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch yn fawr. We continue to stress to the UK Government the importance of the tournament to Welsh audiences and the need for continued free-to-air coverage. We have written to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to reiterate this point and will continue to make the case.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for your response, Minister. Once again, we find ourselves here in the Senedd, just before the six nations tournament kicks off, raising concerns about future broadcasting agreements and the impact they'll have on the people of Wales. The then UK Government, last year, made the decision not to include the six nations in the free-to-air category, despite the significance of the tournament to Wales and the clear demand from fans to keep it accessible. And yet, here we are, again, facing the prospect of TNT Sports bidding for the six nations tv rights, once again putting the interests of Welsh rugby fans at risk. I hope we can all agree that watching our national teams should not be a privilege that only those who can afford subscriptions are able to do. It's more than just a sport; it's about our national identity, our culture, and the ability of every person in Wales, no matter their background, to be part of something bigger.

Samuel Kurtz mentioned earlier the economic impact such tournaments have as well of bringing communities together, but also boosting business. We know that when our national side takes to the field, both men's and women's, our whole nation gets behind them. We celebrate their victories. We share in their struggles; we've had to share in too many struggles with rugby recently. But, most importantly, we do inspire future generations to take up sport, and, if we want to inspire young people to dream of putting on that red jersey one day, we have to make sure that they can actually watch the players who wear it now.

So, Minister, you say that you've written to the UK Government. Your predecessor did the same. The UK Labour Government is now in 10 Downing Street, so I would hope those discussions could be more fruitful. So, can I press you: when will we get a response and when will we see progress on this, so we don't have to keep having these conversations every year?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, for raising the question in the first place and, indeed, your supplementary question. Llywydd, I think rugby, particularly at the national level, is one of those topics that does bring the Senedd together. Rugby is of cultural significance to the nation and I do agree with the Member when she says it's more than just a sport. It is there to inspire the next generation, but, as you pointed to Sam Kurtz and his contribution earlier in the day, we also recognise the wider benefits that the sport brings particularly at the national level, but right the way through the game.

And I think the debate brought forward by the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee in July of last year really did show that consensus from the Senedd from all parties around the six nations and that it should remain free to air—our position as a Welsh Government remains the same—including to Welsh-language audiences.

The Member points to areas of actions that we have taken. Well, I've taken the opportunity to raise this in a number of different forums—indeed, at the BBC in October and again with the director general—to play their role and do all they can to ensure a commitment to free-to-air coverage in the future, and, as I referred to in my first answer, Presiding Officer, around the letter that myself and the First Minister wrote to Lisa Nandy, the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, just yesterday, setting out our position, outlining our position, as did the former First Minister back in 2023. I haven't got an answer, Presiding Officer, to when we'll have a response to that, but I do look forward to the response from Lisa Nandy and I do hope that it is more forthcoming than the previous UK Government.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I think we're all united in this Chamber in the belief that the six nations must remain free to air, and we're a rugby nation, and the bid expressed by TNT broadcasting rights does not mean that the six nations being behind a paywall is a dead cert. It was the Welsh Conservatives 12 months ago who tabled a debate on this very topic this time last year, and the motion called on the Welsh Government to call on the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, DCMS, to ensure that the broadcasting rights remain with a broadcaster committed to free-to-air broadcast, and Welsh Labour Members voted with our motion, as did the whole Chamber. So, can the Minister outline what representations you specifically will make to the DCMS, whether that's in writing, a meeting? Can you please describe that to this Chamber and what particular representations you'll make on behalf of the people and the viewers of Wales to really make that case, and also with the BBC as well? Because I think we've got to all be heading in the same direction and be collegiate on this matter. And the willingness to maintain free-to-air broadcasting must be felt across the board in order to make that happen, and stop a paywall coming into place further down the line in the future. Thank you.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Gareth, and I'm grateful for your questions on this particular matter. We often have disagreements in this Senedd Chamber, Presiding Officer, and Gareth and I have had many over the years that we've been here. On this occasion, we do stand shoulder to shoulder, with the view that the six nations should be free to air on television, for viewers across Wales to participate in and to view and celebrate, hopefully, future rugby in Wales. Credit where credit is due, where it should be, his party did produce the motion in the Senedd last year, which was supported. I'm grateful for the work of the culture committee and their inquiry and interest in this matter, and it is, as the Member points out, an interesting topic for the Chamber, one that we are all united on, and I'm sure that consensus remains the same today.

The Member points to the representations that we have made directly. As I said in response to Heledd earlier, the former First Minister, back in 2023, wrote to the then UK Government outlining his position and the position of the Welsh Government. I've taken the opportunity with BBC Wales, and the opportunity with the director general of the BBC, to reiterate our position, that they should do all they can in the role that they can play in response to this. And, as I said earlier, the First Minister and I set out yesterday to Lisa Nandy, the Secretary of State for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, our views, that we remain of the view and our position remains that the six nations should be free to air. We'll continue those discussions with DCMS colleagues in due course.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful for the question this afternoon. I think it's important that we do debate and discuss these things. It's 45 years, Deputy Presiding Officer, since I first made my way down on the train from Rhymney to watch Wales taking on France in January 1980, and the six nations are a part of all of our stories and all of our communities, and all of us, whoever we happen to be, and wherever we sit in this Chamber. The six nations does bring us together as a country and as a community, and everybody should have the right to be a part of that community. Everybody should have the right to go through the joy and the sorrow of supporting Welsh rugby union. The terror that we've felt at different times, and the utter joy that we've felt. I can still remember watching Ieuan Evans break the English line and run towards the east terrace, scoring to beat England 10-9. I could keep us here all afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer. [Laughter.] But the importance—. And we also will remember the way in which Welsh rugby supporters follow the team, as some of us will be in Murrayfield later this season.

Minister, this is a part of us, a part of our national story, a part of our national life. It cannot be taken away by anyone. It is a matter for this Parliament and this Government to ensure that the culture and sport of this country are available to each and every one of us, no matter where we sit, no matter where we live and no matter what our individual teams happen to be. We come together to support Wales, and we want to continue coming together to support Wales.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm grateful to Alun Davies for that, Llywydd. My history doesn't stretch as far back as Alun's, but I think the passion, no doubt, is the same, as Alun represents the country in that passion. And I agree with him: it is a matter of national identity, isn't it, the game of rugby in Wales? As I said earlier, it's of cultural significance to us all, as both a Government and a Parliament, but as a nation as well. The competition of the six nations has been free since its inception. It is my view, and the view of this Government, that it should remain as free-to-air coverage and, indeed, as it is this weekend. I'll take the opportunity, Deputy Presiding Officer, to repeat, as I've said, that we've set out to the DCMS our position, and I look forward to the response to that. But I'll just take Alun's passion in his contribution and wish the squad all the very best in their first game on Friday in France.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Just to let you know, my history stretches a bit further back than his. [Laughter.] Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The culture committee did report on this last year, as you've alluded to, and we recommended that the games should be contained and that they should be protected as free to air, to protect against this exact eventuality, and that was for all of the reasons that have been rehearsed so well this afternoon in the Chamber: the unique place that the six nations have in our psyche as a nation, the fact that they bring us together, the audiences, being so much more overwhelmingly the case in Wales than in the other nations.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Now, as a committee, we had stated very clearly that these games should remain free to air, but we had recommended that if there were to be a change, that it was so important that this Government should take steps to ensure that the Westminster Government also did everything it could to safeguard Welsh-language commentary. We also argued, again, if this change were to come—and we didn't want to see this change, but if the tournament moved to a pay-per-view system—that we need to protect hospitality settings, perhaps by pushing for contractual clauses to enable pubs and clubs to get reduced subscription fees. Now, I very much hope it doesn't come to that, but can I have an assurance from you that that is something that you too are discussing with the Westminster Government, if we do reach that point that nobody in this Chamber wants us to reach?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Delyth, for the question. Again, I'm grateful for the committee's work on this topic, as I said earlier. It is of national significance, isn't it, and we will do all we can to make the case for the coverage of the six nations to be free to air, Presiding Officer. I hope, as well as the Member, that it doesn't get to that position, and no decision has been made yet on the future of broadcasting, but I do hope that it does remain free to air, and I can't be clearer on this Government's position. I won't go into hypotheticals of what may or may not happen, but of course, we will keep a watching brief of this situation, and we'll want to respond appropriately with our partners in the UK Government.

As I say, Presiding Officer, this does bring the Senedd together, and I'm grateful for the opportunity that Members have recommitted. All political parties, of all colours, support the cause of free-to-air coverage of the six nations, as does this Welsh Government, and we send that consensus, collaboration and spirit to the team in France on Friday, and wish them all the best for the tournament in the next few weeks.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Minister.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

To reiterate, on behalf of the whole Senedd, we wish the Welsh team all the best for Friday night, and the remainder of the six nations.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 today is the 90-second statements. The first statement will be made by Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Stroke Prevention Day is Thursday 30 January. Strokes happen suddenly, usually without warning. I attend two local stroke groups, one in Morriston and one in Trallwn, with people from their early 30s who have had a stroke attending. When a stroke strikes, part of your brain shuts down, and so does part of you. It happens every five minutes in the UK, and changes lives instantly. Recovery is tough, but with the right specialist support, courage and determination, brains can adapt.

Most stroke prevention strategies are the same as the strategies to prevent heart disease. Preventative tips include: diet and healthy eating, decreasing the amount of cholesterol and saturated fat in your diet, controlling diabetes, monitoring blood pressure, making sure you avoid having high blood pressure, avoiding illicit drugs, exercising, and quitting smoking and alcohol. The Stroke Association is dedicated to the prevention of stroke, and offers extensive support to those impacted by them.

There are currently around 70,000 stroke survivors living in Wales, and a further 7,400 people are expected to have a stroke this year. Using thrombectomy, which involves removing a clot from a blood vessel, most commonly from the brain, heart or lung for eligible patients, represents a saving of £47,000 per patient over a five-year period, but more importantly, it improves someone's life and someone's life chances. We need to raise public awareness of the symptoms of a stroke and the need for timely treatment, and most importantly of all, we need to prevent people having strokes.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

The best orator he had ever heard. That was Vaughan Roderick's opinion about Emrys Roberts. He was born in Leamington Spa, but at the age of 10 the family moved to Cardiff. Through Minny Street Chapel, Cathays school and his aunt Bet, Emrys learned Welsh. In Cathays, he was one of a group of boys who became fluent in Welsh, including Bobi Jones and Tedi Millward.

A conscientious objector, he refused to do military service after the second world war, and he was sentenced to a term in Cardiff prison. While he was there, Mahmood Mattan was hanged. Emrys Roberts saw the racism against Mahmood, and saw his fellow prisoners, those of Somali descent having to dig the grave, and covering it with quicklime.

Emrys had an international mindset. He was a leader in the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and had enormous an respect for Castro and Cuba. His great aspiration was to see Wales sitting next to Cuba at the United Nations.

He stood for Plaid Cymru in several prominent by-elections, and he led Merthyr council at the end of the 1970s. He was also responsible for the unlawful broadcasts that happened when the BBC banned political broadcasts by Plaid.

Although he held leading roles within Plaid Cymru, it's fair to say that he did not see eye to eye with the leadership of the party on all occasions. He was a socialist by instinct, and he worked hard to push the party in that direction. Everything that Emrys did was rooted in what was best for Wales and the peoples of the world. He was a kind man, and I experienced that kindness over the years.

It's a privilege to pay tribute to Emrys here in the Senedd. He was part of a small group that insisted that Wales was a nation, and this Senedd is the fruit of their labours. Thank you very much.

5. Motion to amend Standing Orders: Standing Order 12.19 (Open Debates)

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We'll move on now to item 5, a motion to amend Standing Orders: Standing Order 12.19 (Open Debates). I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I formally move.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Finance Committee Report, 'Financial Transactions Capital'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 today is a debate on the Finance Committee report, 'Financial Transactions Capital'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Before I begin, I would like to thank all those who gave evidence to the committee as part of our short inquiry into financial transactions capital, or FTC. I’m also grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for engaging with the inquiry and for providing his response to our report ahead of this debate. Thank you very much. I’m particularly pleased to see that all 15 of our recommendations have been accepted, with one accepted in principle, and another accepted in part.

In conducting this inquiry into FTC, our aim was to look at how its use could be improved and better utilised. In particular we looked at: the rules governing the use of FTC; the purposes for which it has been used; its strengths and weaknesses; how it is repaid; and how it is presented in the draft and final budgets.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Dirprwy Lywydd, FTC comprises a significant part of the Welsh Government’s budget, amounting to a portfolio of about £2.2 billion in the budget for 2024-25. However, we found that its practical use is constrained by its uncertain nature, which causes difficulties for the Welsh Government when planning in the medium to long term. We also found that the Welsh Government is often using FTC within a straitjacket of rules over which it has no control, given that they are set centrally by the UK Government.

That said, the evidence received from stakeholders demonstrates that FTC has the potential to support significant policy outcomes. The organisations we heard from saw FTC as a crucial part of the jigsaw to enable them to access financial capital that would lead to tangible results with clear social benefits. We found this to be somewhat at odds with the Cabinet Secretary’s own view that there is no great appetite in Wales for FTC funding.

Our inquiry also looked at the role played by the Development Bank of Wales in administering FTC. Although we found it plays an essential function, we are concerned that the recent reclassification of the bank by HMRC as a central Government body, rather than as a public corporation, will limit the way in which it can effectively support FTC. As a result, we have recommended that the Government assess how this change will impact on the services and products the bank can provide, and I'm glad that the Cabinet Secretary has already confirmed in his response that this work is well under way.

The committee also notes that the Welsh Government is currently reforming the way it manages FTC. We are supportive of the areas of reform mooted by the Cabinet Secretary, especially around enabling more flexibility by removing the ring fence around the use of FTC; providing greater stability and predictability to the flow of money that could be shared through FTC; and ensuring less bureaucracy in the way that the money is used. We believe that these are solid principles and ask the Cabinet Secretary to provide an update on progress in discussions with the Treasury in this area. We welcome that early informal discussion between officials has already taken place.

As mentioned, the experiences of businesses and organisations in using FTC have been generally positive. However, we believe that improvements can be made. We have called on the Welsh Government to publish its criteria for success in using FTC so that expected outcomes for businesses are known at the outset prior to an application, and for them to share more details regarding ongoing attempts to streamline the FTC application process, which stakeholders told us was often lengthy and difficult.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would now like to turn to other recommendations in our report. During the sixth Senedd, the committee has regularly called for further clarity in the Welsh Government's budget documentation to explain how FTC allocations are made and for what purpose. This lack of clarity was evident during our inquiry, given we received differing figures from the Welsh Government in its evidence regarding the amount of FTC received to date. However, it is pleasing to see that positive steps have been taken in this area already in response to the committee's work. I'm glad that the draft budget narrative for 2025-26 includes a greater level of detail on FTC, including the provision of disaggregated data.

In terms of using FTC, I have already mentioned that it comprises a substantial amount of the Welsh Government's spending firepower. However, whilst this funding already benefits some areas, there are certain areas within the Government's responsibilities where it could be used more effectively. To tackle this issue, the committee has called on the Welsh Government to gain a better understanding of where FTC can be used. We have called for a sectoral analysis to be conducted to identify this, and we look forward to further engagement with Government officials on this point.

We also believe that steps are needed to raise awareness of FTC across the Welsh Government, including better knowledge sharing and training, and again it is heartening that progress on reviewing guidance in this area has begun. We also made a range of other recommendations to open up the FTC process, with a view to enhancing its use.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, taken together, our recommendations aim to ensure a more open process in terms of FTC and to ensure that it is used in the most practical way possible across the Welsh Government. I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has responded positively to our recommendations, and I look forward to hearing the views of other Members during the debate. Thank you.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I'm glad, following my suggestion, that the Finance Committee agreed to undertake a short inquiry into financial transactions capital. Too often here, financial transactions capital has been something that's happening over which we have very little discussion and very few people have any knowledge.

The UK Government provides financial transactions capital as part of the Welsh Government's block grant. It is a ring-fenced element of capital funding and includes loans or equity investment by the Welsh Government into the private sector. It was an invention of one of the previous Conservative Governments, who created a device to allow the Treasury to avoid declaring capital expenditure in a way that scored against the public sector borrowing requirement, because it appeared both in the debit and credit column, and could be netted off. The discretion afforded to the Welsh Government in operating it means that it can decide on its own programme within the allocation. And can I just say, it's highly unfortunate that a similar scheme does not exist to fund the building of council houses? Because it would do exactly the same thing. It would exist on both the debit and credit side and would be netted off.

As repayable public finance, it is required that it is properly utilised in line with requirements set both at the UK and Welsh Government levels for the effective use of public money. Every year is uncertain, because the Welsh Government does not hear until the autumn statement how much financial transactions capital is coming and then have the short gap between the autumn statement and the draft and final budget in order to show how the Government are going to use the money. In the main, the funding must be repaid to His Majesty's Treasury. In contrast to grants, it is only to be given to entities outside the accounting budgetary boundaries of the Welsh Government and is expected to generate a financial return.

I am pleased that the Welsh Government accepted the committee's recommendations, although one in principle and one partly. Whilst the reply from the Welsh Government that no formal engagement has taken place with the Treasury in recent years regarding the potential reform of financial transactions capital is disappointing, some early informal discussion between officials has taken place in anticipation of reforms to financial transactions capital being considered through the UK Government's spending review that is currently under way. I look forward to the update to the committee following that process.

In the 2025 budget, the Welsh Government published data on the new financial transactions capital funding allocation and recycled financial transactions capital repayments. The recycling is very useful, because you actually get more money being spent in a year than you get being allocated during the year. The total quantum of available funding has been allocated, with an element of overprogramming to manage potential underspends. The development bank is currently recycling financial transactions capital within the Wales property fund and the Wales stalled sites fund. I was pleased to see that, in 2023-24, the bank reinvested a total of £32 million. This was split £19 million to the Wales property fund and £13 million for the Wales stalled sites fund. This illustrates the significant value that the recycling of funds can have compared to new in-year funding.

I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has asked his officials to undertake an analysis of where financial transactions capital has been allocated to date and provide this information to the committee. To facilitate this work, he has asked them to engage further with the committee to better understand the nature of the information that would be most useful to the committee. I look forward to this further discussion. Financial transactions capital is one of the tools that the Welsh Government has to support the Welsh economy. It may not survive the new Government, but whilst we have it in Wales, we must make the best use of it.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak on this report briefly this afternoon. I wasn't a member of the committee whilst the hard work on this was done. My colleague Peter Fox was our Conservative member on there. I'm not saying that the reason he left that committee was because of the excitement of this report, but it is a strange link, isn't it, that that has now happened. I'm pleased that the committee was able to do this report. It's not often that they're able to carry out an inquiry, because of the size of the agenda within the Finance Committee, but clearly, as Mike Hedges pointed out, it was important that the committee was able to take a moment to look a little deeper into a specific area of finance.

As a Member looking at it whilst not being within the process of the committee's work, there are a few things that jumped out at me, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will respond to these points. Ironically, it's clear that there are a number of recommendations in here that speak to the point of transparency and clarity as to the way in which FTC functions and the way it's understood. It's not, I'm sure, purposely murky, but I guess it is a technical financial vehicle where the simpler that it can be explained, the better, because it helps to provide better transparency. There's a theme of that through all of the recommendations. I appreciate that the Government's response to this is a positive one in terms of the recommendations, but I'd be interested to hear whether the Cabinet Secretary in particular feels as though there is, even with the recommendations, enough transparency around FTC.

The second point, which has already been mentioned by the Chair in particular, is in relation to the constraints that sit around FTC. I'd be interested to hear whether the Cabinet Secretary believes that, within the existing constraints, we are maximising its effectiveness, or maximising its use. And then secondly the likelihood of those constraints being adjusted to allow for further effectiveness in the future and how useful, or not, that might be. Of course, there are very good reasons why those constraints are in place, and there are much more qualified people than myself to comment on that, but of course, we want to see the effectiveness and use of this spend in Wales to be the best possible.

And a final point, briefly, in relation to recommendation 7, which again has been highlighted as a recommendation for analysis on the FTC by sector. I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary would be willing to also consider an analysis of FTC by risk as well, because of course what we want to do is minimise any defaults on these types of loans, and understanding the risk profile by who is making use of FTC would be helpful in that as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you. I'd like to thank the committee for its report, which was extremely interesting, regarding a quite esoteric element of the budget, but one that has significant implications in relation to the Government's ability to manage its resources.

What comes across clearly in the report is that the rules surrounding the use of FTC as well as the timing of its distribution are more of a hindrance than a help in the context of devolved fiscal arrangements. And this is, of course, a reflection of the significantly wider limitations on the flexibility of the Senedd's fiscal framework, decided directly by Westminster without any input from Wales and often on what appears to be an arbitrary basis.

To give one example, we are still waiting for the Senedd's borrowing powers and the drawdown limits of the Wales reserve to be aligned with inflation, something that is already happening in Scotland. And in this respect, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language was right to say during his recent appearance before the Finance Committee that this is extremely frustrating, bearing in mind how simple such a change would be. And the same frustrations emerge as we consider the evidence of the Government and stakeholders who have had experience of dealing with the complex rules relating to FTC. It is also worth noting, as the Cabinet Secretary did when giving evidence to this inquiry, that FTC effectively exists to give the UK Government more flexibility when it comes to recording a deficit in terms of public funding. Therefore, Wales must carry the practical burden of Westminster's creative calculations.

I acknowledge that discussions regarding possible amendments of the FTC regime are taking place and I would appreciate updates from the Government as these progress. However, is there not, in looking at the findings of this inquiry, a strong case for getting rid of FTC altogether, and moving to a system where there are no restrictions or excessively bureaucratic rules on the Senedd's use of our financial resources? And isn't creating this freedom necessary when considering the lack of capital investment in Wales over the last decade?

The nature of politics, of course, is that we all have different priorities as to where and how public money should be spent, but I'm sure that we all—regardless of which party we're in—want to see a situation where there are no unnecessary barriers on how the money is used. After all, there is cross-party support in this Senedd to getting rid of the existing Barnett funding system and moving towards fairer financial arrangements that reflect the needs of our population.

All parties have also spoken from time to time about the need to create more flexibility in the structures of the budget process. I therefore believe that there is an opportunity for us as a result of this report to build cross-party consensus on the issue of FTC and the current devolved financial framework as a whole, and to unite as a Senedd to make a strong case to Westminster in terms of the need for much more suitable arrangements for our modern, mature Senedd in order to fully realise its potential.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I start by welcoming the Finance Committee's report and thanking the Chair and members of the committee for the work that they have done?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The report will undoubtedly help us to continue to develop this relatively new financial instrument, making sure that we are able to deploy it effectively in the future. As you’ve heard, I’ve already responded formally to the report and to each of its recommendations. I was very pleased to be able to accept all the recommendations. The limitation on the acceptance of recommendation 7, for example, was simply in order to allow further discussions to refine the information that the committee would find useful. I’m very happy to ask my officials to pick up the point that Sam Rowlands made about the issue of risk in the way in which financial transactions capital is deployed here in Wales.

I am very committed to being able to provide the committee and the wider community here in Wales with as much transparency as possible about its use. There is some limitation on the extent to which you can provide simplified information, given the inherently complex nature of FTCs and the rulebooks that we have to operate within, as the Chair pointed out in his opening. But I hope that Members will recognise that the draft budget already reflects some of the committee's proposals in that regard.

Sam Rowlands asked questions about maximising the use of financial transaction capital. Well, I can say that we deploy every penny of it, and Mike Hedges, I think, made the important points about the extent to which the recyclable nature of this funding means that it comes back in, particularly through the Development Bank of Wales, and then is used again for the purposes to which it has been dedicated by the Welsh Government.

I think it is important to recall that FTCs were only introduced as part of the 2013 budget process. They were a device then, as Mike said, to allow George Osborne to invest without it being on the balance sheet and therefore to meet whatever artificial rule he was claiming to meet at the time. I think, by now, we can't hope that we will simply revert to traditional capital to fund all areas of Government spend, and therefore we have to maximise the ability that FTCs offer us to boost our investment in private and third sector organisations, while remembering that the key difference between conventional capital and FTCs is that FTCs have to be repaid. Therefore, in thinking of that other recommendation of the committee about the criteria for success in this area, and I set them out in my response: that use of the funds has to be feasible, visible, desirable, but it also, in this case—this is why it's different to conventional capital—has to be repayable. That has undoubtedly had an impact on the appetite of organisations in Wales to use FTCs, and while that appetite may be greater a decade into FTCs, it certainly was an appetite that had to be stimulated in those early days.

Now, as we evolve our approach to the use of FTCs and take incremental steps to improve the process and increase transparency, I am very keen to continue to work with the committee to continue to review the usefulness of this tool and how it might be refined in terms of reporting in future budgets. Progress has been made to address some of the other recommendations in the report. We anticipate that the reclassification of DBW will be considered by both Governments through the current spending review, and I will certainly report on the outcome of that to the Senedd. I've also committed to publishing revised guidance. We'll be offering training sessions to staff in policy areas across the Welsh Government to see if there is an appetite for use of FTCs more broadly than the relatively limited set of purposes in which it has been successively used up until now—[Interruption.]

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Of course.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Just on that point, therefore, do you think that there is a fair bit more potential for the use of this particular mechanism in terms of funding capital projects, particularly in housing? Is housing an area that is crying out for the use of this kind of funding mechanism because one can recoup rent in order to pay back that loan?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Siân Gwenllian, Dirprwy Lywydd. The area of housing is the area where we do use the majority of these FTCs, but if there's more that we can do and we can be more flexible in the way that we use FTCs in the area of housing, then, of course, I want to consider any suggestions to that end. What I think, after nearly a decade of using FTCs, is it is possible that there will be more demand for their use because people are more aware of them and we have experiences. We can show people in practice how the FTCs are used and how we can use them here in Wales, and the work done by the committee is very useful in terms of doing that.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

So, let me just end, Dirprwy Lywydd, by thanking the committee once again for their work on the report. I look forward to continuing to work alongside them as we develop our thinking in this policy area.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the committee to respond to the debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone who has taken part in today's debate and has read the report. Given that we don't get an opportunity, very often, to undertake inquiries, it's excellent to have an opportunity to do a short inquiry like this.

I'll start with Mike Hedges, who talked about FTCs—

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

—and the history and some of the timescale issues and some of those things that we grappled with when we were talking about this. As Sam mentioned, Peter Fox was on the committee when we did this and it was great to have Peter there, and I do hope it wasn't the reason you left the committee. It's actually quite a good report, I think, so surely it wasn't that. [Laughter.] But he alluded to something that I think the Cabinet Secretary said, talking about that straitjacket that we're working within, and I'm hoping that the Cabinet Secretary will go to the Treasury and try and find the key to it, because that would be very, very useful.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank Heledd, who talked about how we could use this, because it's not the best way, perhaps, but it is available to us now, and the need to look at reform and at how we use this, but how we also have a better settlement and move things forward with the Treasury in order to have a fairer budget for Wales and something that is beneficial for the new Senedd that we'll be moving into after the next election. And thank you very much for your responses to the report, and I also thank you for your comments this evening.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

It is an interesting but complex—you know, it's simple but complex, and that's the aspect that came through in this: how do you present very complicated things in a simple enough way for people to understand how they're used? And how do you do that linking with businesses, with arm's-length bodies to understand what that is? And how do you explain to your Cabinet colleagues how it could be used in more interesting ways within that?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

And I thank Siân for the intervention on housing—that's extremely important.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

So, just to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, Members will be more than aware that capital funding has been in short supply over recent years, so this is one way of doing it. And as a committee, we are also firm believers in good scrutiny and the ability to bring about positive change, and I think this is one of the ways that we try and push the agenda forward, as a committee, to go into some of these more obscure, maybe, mechanisms that we have of raising capital and using capital. That is why we have focused our recommendations on increasing the transparency and finding ways to maximise the use of FTC within the Welsh Government's budgets.

Again, I thank the Cabinet Secretary and everybody who's taken part and I recommend people read the report, because it is not that long, but it makes for interesting reading. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Employment

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on employment, and I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion on the order paper in the name of Paul Davies. I open this debate today on a topic of growing concern for us all: the state of the Welsh economy. Last week the Office for National Statistics published its latest labour market overview and the figures should serve as a wake-up call. These statistics do not merely represent abstract data points, they reveal the very real struggles faced by Welsh communities, Welsh businesses and Welsh families.

Let us start with unemployment. The unemployment rate in Wales has now risen for the seventh consecutive month, reaching 5.6 per cent. That is an increase of 0.7 percentage points in just the last quarter, making it the highest in the United Kingdom. Compared to the UK average of 4.4 per cent, it is clear that Wales is falling behind. Employment figures paint an equally troubling picture. Wales's employment rate has dropped to 70 per cent, the lowest across the United Kingdom, and nearly 5 per cent behind the UK average. Perhaps most concerning is economic inactivity. In November Wales's economic inactivity rate stood at a staggering 25.6 per cent—far above the UK average of 21.6 per cent. Behind these numbers are real people—young people struggling to find opportunities, workers unable to re-enter the job market and families facing financial insecurity. These are not just statistics, they are a stark reflection of the failures of this Welsh Labour Government. For seven months running, unemployment has climbed. For far too long, economic growth has stalled. This is not a sudden development, but the cumulative result of poor policy choices, missed opportunities and a severe lack of ambition.

Now, let us talk about why this matters. A strong economy is not just a 'nice to have', it's essential. It is the engine that drives everything else: jobs, public services, investment and opportunity. But here in Wales, our economic engine is sputtering. Like a neglected car engine, Labour has failed to maintain it. They skipped the oil change, ignored the warning lights and left it running on empty, and as a result, it's now slow, sluggish and struggling to get out of first gear. We've all seen the consequences of this neglect: small businesses, the lifeblood of our communities, are being squeezed by rising costs, inadequate support and excessive bureaucracy; investment in infrastructure and innovation, both essential to fuelling economic growth, has been patchy, if it's been present at all.

The consequences are clear: fewer jobs, lower wages and stalled growth, which leaves Wales lagging behind every other part of the United Kingdom. But it doesn't have to be this way. With the right leadership, the Welsh economy can move from sluggish to dynamic, from lagging to leading. What Wales needs is a Government that understands the importance of a strong economy and is willing to take action to deliver it. The Welsh Conservatives have that vision. Our plan for the economy is bold, practical and focused on delivering real change. A Welsh Conservative Wales would be a Wales that is open for business.

First, we would reinstate business rates relief at 75 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors. These sectors have been hit hardest by rising costs and need urgent support to protect jobs and livelihoods. Second, we would abolish business rates for small businesses. This would provide a lifeline to thousands of entrepreneurs, giving them the breathing space they need to grow, invest and create jobs. Third, we would commit to raise up the whole of Wales. Talent is equally spread across our nation, but opportunity is not. It is unacceptable that some parts of our country still feel forgotten. We would ensure that investment is distributed fairly so that every community has the opportunity to thrive.

Why else would the Welsh economy be better nurtured under the Welsh Conservatives? Because of our values: we are pro-wealth creation, pro-tourism, pro-farming, pro-enterprise, pro-infrastructure and pro-business. It's clear that there are two options facing the Wales of today: a future of continued, managed decline under a Labour Party out of ideas, out of energy, out of their depth and, soon enough, out of office, content with their foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy; or a future where the Welsh economic dragon is allowed to roar, soaring high as it is unleashes the pent-up potential of the Welsh people, of Welsh businesses and of Welsh industry, setting Wales onto a path of prosperity for all. That's why I urge Members to back business, to boost our economy and to undo the barriers to growth by supporting our motion today. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, moved.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Formally—thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Luke Fletcher to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the amendments in the name of Heledd Fychan. I can't promise to use as many puns as the Conservative spokesperson, but the figures do tell a story, and that's a story that isn't just told by members of the opposition but is told by many economists outside of this building, and the story isn't a good one. Wales does have some of the worst employment opportunities in the UK, the lowest wages, stagnating growth and poor productivity, and this isn't just an isolated issue, it's a damning trend. But what’s equally concerning is the Government’s constant attempts to brush it under the carpet and the refusal to accept that the current strategy isn’t working. Instead of addressing these issues head on, blame is shifted elsewhere. Before the general election, it was the Tories’ fault; a Cabinet Secretary recently said it’s the global economic conditions—those were present, to be fair, under the previous UK Government—and, in this specific debate, it’s not policy that is at fault, but the data available. Now, though data is not the primary issue here, I will concede that there is an issue with the availability and quality of data to measure the success of economic policy. We’ve known this for a long time. It was a point of discussion long before I was elected to this place, and it seemingly will be an issue past the next election, by the looks of things. So, on that point of data, I would welcome, from the Cabinet Secretary, a road map as to how we improve that data available to us. It's highlighted in the Government’s amendment, the Cabinet Secretary for finance has before raised the issues in relation to data, but there is nothing in the amendment outlining the next step forward, and it’s an important step.

Now, I think it’s also worth pointing out that, while the Conservatives have brought forward today’s motion, we shouldn’t forget their own track record on the UK economy. They want to talk about employment, and that’s fine, but that should also be discussed alongside wages. And the record of the previous Tory Government was that of the lowest wage growth—wage stagnation for 14 years, 900,000 children pushed into poverty, average wages just £16 a week higher in real terms than in 2010. That on its own isn’t a record to be proud of.

Now, where there is agreement on the original motion is how we support Welsh business. There needs to be a resolution on business rates, and there needs to be cross-party discussions on how we get to a place where the system is fair, because it clearly isn’t fair at this current moment in time. Yes, there needs to be investment in all parts of Wales, which will be helped by the reforming of the funding model and the return of decision-making powers over post-Brexit funding to the Senedd, which is what our amendment 2 seeks to address.

And finally, I draw Members’ attention to amendment 3. We would follow the OECD’s recommendation to establish an economic development agency—a return of the Welsh Development Agency—that would focus on growing Welsh business and creating a funding and advice landscape that is easy to understand, navigate and set economic development targets to reflect what is important to Government when it comes to economic growth. Growth for growth’s sake is of no use, but growth to resolve a specific problem, like eradicating child poverty, for example, does make sense.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

It’s great to be able to contribute to this debate today, which highlights the unfortunate and devastating decline we’ve witnessed in our economic outputs since Labour gained power in Wales. Twenty-five years of this tired Government. They refer to themselves as progressive, but yet are seemingly regressive when it comes to the economy. We’ve been left in a situation by Labour where we have the highest economic inactivity, the highest unemployment rate and the smallest pay packets of any UK nation. They’re, quite frankly, shocking statistics that represent a continued failure from the Welsh Labour Government to kick-start growth, opportunity and investment into the Welsh economy, and, as a result, the people of Wales are, and continue to be, let down.

But they’re not just a list of statistics being complacently thrown around the Chamber today; they represent the job opportunities of people right across Wales, in every constituency, the job opportunities of the next generation, and the ability for young people to grow up, study and gain employment in Wales in the industries of today and the industries of tomorrow. To put it simply, Dirprwy Lywydd, the entire economic prosperity of our nation rests upon these frightening figures, which, at present, represent an extremely scary trajectory, should our direction not change as a matter of urgency.

If there’s anything the economic track record of consecutive Welsh Labour Governments have proven it’s that too much bureaucracy stifles growth, and that businesses should be given the tools and the climate they need to invest and grow, not micromanaged and supertaxed by this Government, which, as we’ve heard before from Labour benches, doesn’t even know what it’s doing on the economy.

Now, just today, Dirprwy Lywydd, Welsh Labour’s friends down the M4 proved yet again that it was a party-wide trait not to be able to manage the economy, when the Chancellor had to virtually start from scratch when setting out some refreshed plans just six months in, as she’s already talked the economy down so far that it has already flatlined, and even shrunk in September and October, following Labour’s acquisition of power in Westminster just last year. And in addition, Dirprwy Lywydd, we'll have already another statement from the Chancellor now in March on kick-starting growth yet again. It seems that this Chancellor is so desperate to see growth, but is actively putting policies in place that prevent it.

Basic economics tells you that higher taxes take away from people's disposable incomes, naturally reducing spending, which in turn slows economic growth, and, if the Chancellor hadn't put those growth-stifling policies in place in the first instance, we wouldn't be in the position we are today, where Governments are making statements about their plan to restart and refresh and re-kick-start growth six months in. They'd have the confidence of the public and the economy and businesses just to get on with it.

As I said before, job opportunities and incomes and all those opportunities linked to these factors continue to hang in the balance, with the Welsh Labour Government doing very little to help. That's why our motion today calls on this Welsh Labour Government to take four simple steps that would have a hugely beneficial economic impact for the people of Wales: reinstating business rates relief up to 75 per cent from the current 40 per cent for the hospitality, retail and leisure sectors; abolishing the business rates tax for small businesses; levelling up the whole of Wales with a fairly distributed, adequate level of investment across the country; and step 4 is, if they can't do it, Llywydd, we will.

These are steps with the ability to open up Wales for investment, drive growth and provide job security for people across Wales, keeping home-grown talent here. We're living in unstable times. People understandably are nervous about the cost of living and rising bills, and now business owners are having further tax hikes to contend with, following national insurance increases by the UK Labour Party. So, I encourage you, everybody in this Chamber, and those watching I'm sure, to support small businesses by giving them the opportunity for the investment injection that they so deserve, supporting people across Wales with subsequent job creation, supporting people's pay packets, supporting hospitality, supporting our leisure, supporting our retail sectors. And if UK Labour cannot be anything other than negative, when it comes to talking down our economy, let's step away from that pessimistic rhetoric and make Wales a positive place for investment and prosperity, and let's open up business in Wales. That's why we've put this motion forward today, and that's why I urge all Members to support it.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Well, this is marching to the sound of gunfire, isn't it? The Chamber is packed with Tories who are talking—. They're the ones talking down the economy. Everything that was said was entirely negative. In spite of Tom Giffard saying that it's Labour talking down the economy, it's the Conservatives who are doing so for political advantage. Let's just remember this: 2010—[Interruption.]—. If you're all going to heckle me at once I can't hear you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I want to hear the contribution from the Member, so if you'll allow me to do so without any heckling, please, I'll be very grateful.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I don't mind a bit of heckling, Dirprwy Lywydd. I don't mind. It was David Cameron and George Osborne in 2010—. And Tom Giffard mentions basic economics; well, you've got to pick a side in this, because, for every problem, there's a different policy solution. My side is basic Keynesian economics, and in 2010 the Keynesian lesson was you invest when the economy's underperforming, you invest to build and grow, which is where we are now with the UK Labour Government. What David Cameron and George Osborne did in 2010, with the support of the Liberal Democrats, was the opposite. That's when austerity began and that's when our continual decline, that led through Brexit, led through Theresa May to Liz Truss and all those disasters—. That was followed through from those early days of David Cameron.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Would you not acknowledge that Alistair Darling, who has, unfortunately, now passed away, stated before his last budget that austerity had already arrived? That was inherited, and the Keynesian model you refer to requires Governments to reduce spending as a proportion of GDP when an economy is growing in order to increase spending as a proportion of GDP when an economy is slowing. They broke that rule, and the consequence was the austerity that Mr Darling had already acknowledged.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

This reminds me of my university days: I'd say something, and then, 'No, actually, Hefin, you’re wrong.' Well, the point was the economic investment that happened during the later stages of the UK Labour Government was exactly that, and there weren't, under any circumstances, the same level of plans to introduce austerity in the way that it was done by David Cameron and George Osborne. It was introduced in a way that was devastating to communities in Wales, and let's not forget the public sector—[Interruption.]—the public sector in Wales is by far the biggest employer in Wales than in the rest of the UK, and that's where the devastating impact happened. I remember I was first elected to Caerphilly County Borough Council in 2007. By 2010, under the Conservative Government, that's when we first started talking about cuts and we've been talking about cuts ever since. But I think what the Welsh Labour Government's amendment does is address some of those misconceptions in the Conservative motion, so I'm really pleased to vote for it. I actually liked some of the things that Luke Fletcher said as well, although perhaps different solutions to the ones that the Cabinet Secretary is going to take.

Let me give you an example of an optimistic view from my constituency. Transcend Packaging at Dyffryn Business Park produce straws for global chains such as McDonalds and Starbucks, and they've just reached an agreement with Tokyo-based paper producer Itochu Corporation, and the two companies will develop a range of paper- and fibre-based packing products, enabling Transcend Packaging to expand into new markets in North America and in Asia. That's a Caerphilly success story and the Welsh Government has issued a press release today identifying that small and medium-sized businesses in Wales have secured export deals worth over £320 million as a direct result of Welsh Government support since the launch of the export action plan in December 2020.

That is small business success and the trick with identifying which small businesses to work with is through those that can export, and those that can export are those that have been supported well by the Welsh Labour Government. And it's not just Japanese companies. In Tir-y-Berth in my constituency, we've got another growing company, Norgine, who make pharmaceutical products, and I visited them with Chris Evans MP a few weeks ago. And we can see the success that they're having as a growing business and employer in my constituency.

And it's not just foreign investment and small businesses that are looking successful in my constituency. The core Valleys lines are connecting communities, getting people to work in Cardiff and beyond in ways that we hadn't seen in the years leading up to the 2020s. The bus Bill, too, will start to develop those opportunities for employment.

Finally, I just want to say one thing that is very close to my heart. If we're talking about employment, we can't forget those people with additional learning needs. You talk about economic inactivity; well, I look at my little girl and think, 'One day, I'd like you to be able to have a meaningful job.' In my 'Transitions to Employment' report I said:

'The Welsh Government should review support for job coaching for those...with Additional Learning Needs who request it. With reference to the good practice developed by Engage to Change and Learning Disability Wales, an ALN job coaching strategy should be prepared, expanding the provision of specialist coaches'.

I think we need to remember that it's not just about the kind of economic growth with exports and small businesses and successful firms; it's also about looking at those employees who need the most support, and I think job coaching for those with additional learning needs is really important. So, I'd like to take that opportunity to advocate for that as well.

I could say more but I see I'm out of time, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I won't test your patience and I'll stop there.