Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 11 December 2024

341 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Buffy Williams.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

1. How will the Welsh Government's draft budget help Rhondda residents who are struggling with the cost of living? OQ62028

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the draft budget invests an extra £1.5 billion in public services and growth in Wales. We cannot undo 14 years of damage in just one budget, but our proposals will help Rhondda residents dealing, for example, with food poverty, child poverty and domestic violence—a cause that the Member has done so much to highlight.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

We know that the cost of living is still biting, with rents, mortgages and energy costs still at an unsustainable level for too many families. Earlier this week, like very many charities and community groups across the country, Canolfan Pentre finished preparations to support families this Christmas and over the winter months. We know that this work is invaluable for the Government and life-changing for families and children who receive the support. How will this investment, announced as part of the draft budget, continue to support the third sector, and will the discretionary assistance fund and debt advice support be maintained for families? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Buffy Williams for that and congratulate her and thank all those friends and supporters who will have been involved in the work that she outlined, supporting families, and particularly children, over the Christmas period. The budget does indeed provide a number of additional investments to help with that work. There is an additional £1 million for the discretionary assistance fund, taking it to £40 million for next year. There is £1.5 million for investment in warm hubs to help people to keep warm, to keep fed, and to have a place to meet others and to socialise over this winter.

The single advice fund budget to which Buffy Williams referred continues at £12 million in 2025-26, and there will be an additional £1.9 million as Wales's share in the debt levy. My colleague Jane Hutt has already made it clear that we intend to tender for a further three years of grant funding for the single advice fund from April of next year—a clear demonstration of our commitment to go on providing those information and advice services that make such a difference in the lives of so many families in the Rhondda and far beyond.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, according to their statement of accounts, Rhondda Cynon Taf Country Borough Council has just over £255 million in usable reserves. These vast reserves are sat in a bank account while there are residents in the Rhondda and elsewhere in the county borough struggling to make ends meet. What is worse is that the Labour-run council has voted again to increase its council tax next year by just under 5 per cent. Do you agree with me that it is immoral for this council to have such vast reserves when there are people living within Rhondda Cynon Taf who will be deciding whether or not to heat their homes or have a warm meal this Christmas? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the level of reserves for any local authority is a matter for the local authority, not for me, and the local authority is answerable to its local population, and it is the people of the Rhondda who will decide whether or not the council has done a good job when that council is up for election again in 2025. We know that the picture is often more complicated than the question implied. When the Member says 'usable reserves', they may be usable because the council has a number of projects in mind—plans, as RCT quite certainly has, to invest in twenty-first century schools, and parts of those reserves will be there because they're earmarked for use in the future.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

2. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to develop the use of the Welsh language in eastern areas of Wales? OQ62039

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, thank you very much to John Griffiths for the question. Welsh belongs to us all and to every part of Wales. We have launched the second stage of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities and we’re working with partners across the east of Wales. There will be an opportunity to discuss and celebrate this at the Wrexham National Eisteddfod in 2025 and, of course, in the Urdd Eisteddfod in Newport in 2027.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Natasha Asghar.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

One group that—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Oh, no, I do apologise. I do apologise, John Griffiths. John Griffiths to ask his supplementary question.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I'll come to you, Natasha. John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

One group that is doing excellent work to encourage the use of the Welsh language is the Newport Welsh Club—a small group of people of all ages and backgrounds that meet regularly in the middle of the city to practise their Welsh language skills in real situations with learners and other Welsh speakers. The group helps to provide experience to people of discussing everyday things that are important to them, in as much Welsh as they can, to meet new people, and, perhaps most importantly, to make mistakes and learn from them. The experience of learning outside the classroom is where the actual progress is made in terms of learning a language. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that these meetings are something that we should appreciate in terms of developing and growing the language?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, John Griffiths, for that supplementary question, Llywydd. And I thank him for the example that he sets in terms of using the Welsh language. Of course, I agree with him when he thanks Clwb Cymraeg Casnewydd for the work that they do. It's wonderful to see people coming together in this way to socialise through the medium of Welsh and to do it on a voluntary basis. As I understand it, the club is an opportunity for people to use the Welsh language wherever they are on their language journey. It demonstrates the importance of practising and using the Welsh language, and, of course, of making mistakes, because it's through making mistakes that people learn to use any language better. So, of course, I do agree with the Member on the importance of the work that Clwb Cymraeg Casnewydd does, and I'm sure that they, and others in Newport, will look forward to seeing the Urdd Eisteddfod in that area for the first time, in 2027.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, when I recently raised the issue of the Welsh language-only digital variable signs on the M4, you said it had the sound of an urban myth. Following our exchange, an abundance of motorists and constituents contacted me, highlighting specific examples of when this was actually happening, and I know both the Cabinet Secretary for transport and you have been receiving similar correspondence, because I often have been copied into these e-mails. I want to be clear, Presiding Officer, that this isn't an attack on the Welsh language at all; it is in fact a plea to ensure that we have fully bilingual variable signs in operation as a matter of safety. In response to one of the e-mails from a constituent, the Welsh Government debunked any hint of this being an urban myth. The official said, and I quote:

'Sometimes, this is not always possible due to a lack of additional signs on motorway junctions or some signs may have faults in them. Many of the variable message signs on the M4 are beyond their working life and spaces are no longer available. The defective signs have been programmed for replacement subject to funding being made available'.

So, Cabinet Secretary, I think we can both agree that it's not an urban myth. So, will you please kindly look into this matter and commit to working with colleagues to ensure funding is released urgently to repair these defective signs? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Cabinet Secretary for transport heard what the Member had to say the last time she raised this matter, and she's received, I can see, a very constructive reply from that department, outlining what they intend to do. It is no different for me whether somebody who would prefer to get their information in the Welsh language has to rely entirely on an English road sign than it is if somebody who prefers to get their information in English sees a sign in Welsh. Both languages are of equal status and equal value here in Wales. And I don't agree with what I continue to believe to be the thrust behind her question—that, somehow, it's more important to have a sign in English than it is to have one in Welsh.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Following the National Eisteddfod being held in Wrexham back in 2011, there was an increase in the number of people both learning and using Cymraeg. And, as you said in your original answer, Cabinet Secretary, next year, once again, Wrexham is very proudly hosting the National Eisteddfod. What plans do the Welsh Government have to work with the local authority, and other partners, to ensure that we use this opportunity to reach the target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and would you agree with me, also, that Wrexham council can learn some lessons from the way Labour-controlled Rhondda Cynon Taf council delivered for this year’s National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Lesley Griffiths very much for that question. She’s absolutely right—I think the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd was an outstanding success. It was enthusiastically embraced by the local authority, and by its outstanding leader, Councillor Andrew Morgan. I’m quite sure that the National Eisteddfod itself will have taken the learning that was to be collected from that experience in Pontypridd and will want to put it to work with colleagues in Wrexham. And I look forward, certainly, with all those local players who are already making enormous efforts to prepare for that Eisteddfod and to make it a success, I look forward to working with them and with other partners to make sure that, having the National Eisteddfod there in Wrexham, in a part of Wales where the Welsh language is not as in frequent use as in some other parts, gives a long-lasting boost to the language in that part of Wales. And I look forward very much to being with the Member for Wrexham on the maes later, in August next year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, as we know, one of the first things that the new Labour Government did was to strip 500,000 Welsh pensioners of their winter fuel payments. Many believe this was a shameful decision and will place people at risk, leaving many of them with a choice between heating and eating this winter. Only last week, the older people’s commissioner called for a distinct fund for older people to mitigate the removal of this incredibly vital support, amid what she called extreme anxiety, anger and distress. We have seen a change of approach in Scotland, with their Government undoing, in part, some of the cuts in Westminster. Cabinet Secretary, can I therefore ask why no specific Welsh fund was considered in Wales to help those pensioners who really need the support but who fall just short of the pension credit threshold? And will you commit to reconsidering this through the budget process?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, a comparison with Scotland is not a sensible one. Scotland has both powers in the welfare field that do not reside here in the Senedd, and it is funded to discharge those responsibilities. And my difficulty of principle with what the Member has suggested is that money that comes to Wales comes here to fulfil the responsibilities that lie in this Senedd. And I’ve never thought it is a sensible thing to do to divert money that is here for our responsibilities to cover responsibilities that lie elsewhere.

The decision that was made in relation to the winter fuel allowance, as I’ve heard the First Minister explain many times, is a decision made by the UK Government for which they have to be answerable. Here in Wales, we do use the powers we have to provide additional help for people who face difficulty this winter, whether that is through the warm hubs scheme, whether that is in the help that’s available for fuel bills. We do that, however, by using the responsibilities that lie here in the Senedd and the money that is available to us to discharge them, rather than thinking that we can go on making up for difficulties in funding that isn’t available for other responsibilities that don’t belong here.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I was hardly expecting every pensioner to have it reimbursed, but some sort of scheme that could have helped those who are just falling above the threshold, who are really feeling it, and I’ve had many of those come in to see me in my own constituency. However, I understand your position now.

Moving on, as I have said many times before, Cabinet Secretary, the UK Labour Government’s decision to implement a rise in national insurance contributions for businesses was not only a breach of their manifesto commitment, but it is also going to be incredibly detrimental for any hope of growth that businesses in Wales may have. This has already been articulated to me by many businesses, especially last week. That being said, it is not only businesses who need to pay this, but public sector bodies, who employ the equivalent of 10 per cent of the population, will also have to pay this tax rise. Now, I know the Chancellor has confirmed that additional money will be coming to Wales to pay for this increase. However, yesterday’s draft budget statement was still vague on detail. Cabinet Secretary, when will we get clarity so that the fear of public services having to cover a portion or all of this cost will be removed?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I don’t think that the draft budget was vague on the subject; the draft budget was silent on the subject, because there isn’t information that I have that allowed me to take account of any additional funding that will come from the UK Government to help those public service employees with national insurance contributions. We will not know from the UK Government how much money will come to Wales for those purposes until the Chancellor says in May or June of next year. What I have said, and I'll say it again this afternoon, and I said it to local authority leaders earlier in the week, for these purposes the Welsh Government will simply act as a post box. The money that comes to us for these purposes will simply leave us directly to go to those employers who have been covered by the Chancellor’s decision. We won’t divert the money anywhere, we’re not going to use it for anything else. Every penny that comes to us for this reason will go directly to those employers and it will go as fast as the money arrives with us. The Senedd will see it in the second supplementary budget, where it will be reported to Members in the usual way.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that clarity and that is helpful, but there still will be anxiety on councils just in case not all the money comes down the M4 that we are hoping for or you’re hoping for, and that will affect the sorts of decisions they’re going to have to make now when they set their own budget. So, clarity is really important and it’s hoped that the UK Government can indicate more to you sooner rather than later.

Whilst we’re talking about local government, we’ve seen today that the settlements have been announced, as you shared here in this Chamber yesterday. There's a 4.3 per cent average increase, around £250 million, which is an important increase, however a long way short of the £560 million pressure that local authorities are facing. However, I doubt they were expecting all of that. However, the 4.3 per cent increase, as you also acknowledged, throws up winners and losers, and we see in Newport a 5.3 per cent increase, which will be very welcome, while in counties like Monmouthshire, we only see 2.8 per cent. Now, I know you said this settlement would save councils from the brink, but we know some will still be facing a real cliff edge, and clearly this again demonstrates that the funding formula needs to be revisited. Cabinet Secretary, will you consider implementing a funding floor this year to protect those who are most under pressure, recognising the disparity between the lowest and the highest?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Peter Fox for that important final question. He’s absolutely right: the funding formula, at an average of 4.3 per cent, always has some local authorities who do better than that and some who will not do as well. He knows that the funding formula, complex as it is, is really driven by only two factors that cover the vast bulk of the formula. If your population is rising, the amount of money you get through the formula goes up with it; if the number of children entering schools is going down, the formula reflects that as well. It is demographically driven, the formula, and then it has a more complex set of other factors that it takes into account.

I am aware of the gap that exists between 5.6 at the top of the distribution range and 2.8 at the bottom. I’ve undertaken to hold further discussions with my colleague Jane Bryant in the period between draft and final to see if there is anything further that we could do, to further support those councils that find themselves at the less advantageous end of that spectrum.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. I’m sure you appreciate why we, as opposition parties, so often raise the issue of national insurance contributions. I raised the issue yesterday. I appreciate the fact that in your response to Peter Fox you said you will not know exactly what is happening until May or June. But, may I ask, what discussions have you had with the Chancellor in terms of getting that additional support? We know about the whole host of letters that we receive from the third sector, GPs and so on. So, can you give us some insight in terms of whether you expect to see any change, or is this how things are going to be?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, of course, Llywydd, Ministers here take opportunities to raise such issues with the Chancellor and with other Ministers in the Treasury. We know that the First Minister had an opportunity to speak to Keir Starmer in Edinburgh last Friday about a number of issues that are relevant to us here in Wales in the area of finance. I had an opportunity to speak directly to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury back in October. The CST will be here in Wales early in the new year, and there will be more opportunities to raise the issues that people have raised with us. And of course, I'm sure the Chancellor will hear the same points from people in England as well. So, it'll be up to her, at the end of the day, to make decisions on how many people she can help with national insurance, but she is very aware of the points that the sectors have raised with us here in Wales.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Here's hoping, therefore, that she'll listen to you then, given that you're in the same party. Without clarity from the Treasury, then, on this, how can you be certain of the strategic integrated impact assessment that was published along with the budget yesterday? And what assessment have you made in terms of how much of yesterday's budget will be going back to the Treasury, because it will be spent to fill the gap created because of the changes to national insurance?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I think it's important to say that funding goes back to the Treasury every day after decisions that are made by the Westminster Government. For example, when the UK Government increases the real living wage—something that we welcome here, of course—more people will pay income tax, and that will return to the Treasury. That's just something that happens every day in terms of the decisions that are behind the funding that we have to spend here in Wales. When people in the third sector buy things to use, they pay VAT. The money goes back to the Treasury. That's just part of how things work in finance. So, we haven't done any work to try and find out in any detail how much money raised in Wales in that way will be returned to Treasury. There are figures available, and the figures show, as they say,

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Welsh citizens make a greater tax effort than any other part of the United Kingdom.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

But you must have heard what people like Citizens Advice are saying in terms of the cuts that they will have to make to their staffing. If people don't have jobs, they can't contribute to the economy. I do think that understanding what the impact of these changes to national insurance on the Welsh budget will be and how much is available is important. You mentioned a bright future in terms of yesterday's budget. If you look at an analysis that has been undertaken by the Wales Governance Centre, and I will quote here, they say,

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

'After this year's "big" budget, next year's budget round promises to be more difficult, and might feel like a return to austerity for some public services.'

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

So, there are very real concerns among neutral people who analyse things here in terms of Wales's financial situation. Can you provide that clarity for us, because it's important that we do know whether the assessment that went along with the budget is representative in terms of the impact of national insurance in particular?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I was trying to respond to the specific point I thought the Member had raised, as to whether or not we had made an assessment of the extent to which money that comes to Wales ends up being returned to the Treasury. I was simply trying to explain that that is just part of the normal way in which money flows across the UK economy. The different assessments that you will find that accompany the budget do not take into account fully the impact of national insurance contributions rises, because, as I say, we do not yet have certainty as to how many employees in Wales will be covered directly by the money that the Treasury will provide. And as for anxieties about next year's budget, my job at the moment is to make sure we make the maximum use of the opportunity that comes with the budget for the following financial year. I look forward to the Chancellor's spring statement. I look forward to being able to give certainty to local government and other organisations that depend upon funding that we provide, so that they can plan over a three and four-year horizon to make the very most of the significant opportunity that has come our way as a result of the draft budget.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

3. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with Cardiff Council and the Cabinet Secretary for Education to ensure that Welsh-medium education is accessible across the capital city? OQ62013

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Rhys ab Owen for the question, Llywydd. Cardiff Council’s Welsh in education strategic plan commits, by 2031, to increase the percentage of learners taught through the medium of Welsh to 27 per cent, an increase of 9 per cent. The authority received feedback on its annual progress report last week, and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Now, you'll be aware of the campaign to establish a fourth Welsh-medium secondary school in Cardiff. You'll also be aware of Cardiff Council's response, which says that there are adequate numbers of places in the Welsh-medium secondary sector for the next five years. But we have seen that community schools—. You've mentioned at least twice in the Senedd a school like Ysgol Treganna, a community school increasing from 11 pupils to over 900. There's not one bus going to Ysgol Treganna, which is strange for us here who were bussed for hours every day to Welsh-medium education.

What's jarring is that there are children from south Cardiff, they all have to cross the city from the most disadvantaged areas in Cardiff, they have to cross the city to access Welsh-medium education, never mind the issues in getting a place in the secondary school or the problems in terms of accessing transport across the city. This, of course, is bound to put parents off sending their children to Welsh-medium education. So, how are you going to ensure, Cabinet Secretary, that the Welsh language truly is a language for us all, that everyone can read the deficient signage that was mentioned in the first question, but particularly those people from the disadvantaged and most multi-ethnic areas of our capital city? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you for that supplementary question. I do understand the points that the Member raises and the concerns that parents have in the south of the city specifically. It's just true to say that the local authority faces two different matters of fact: first, the birth rate that is reducing across Wales and is at its lowest level since comparative data was first published in 1929. That is having an impact now on the number—not the percentage, but the number—of children who go into Welsh-medium education in Cardiff. Also, it's a fact that one of the three Welsh-medium secondary schools in Cardiff has a number of empty places, and that does create a difficult context for the council despite the successful growth in Welsh-medium education in Cardiff.

However, the local authority's WESP does envisage the possibility of such a school, and I have asked my officials to discuss this directly with Cardiff Council in a meeting to discuss the authority's annual review report, and to include transport as part of those discussions.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, a lot of the policy areas around education obviously sit with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, but today the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee have brought a report out about the supply of cover teachers and temporary teaching staff in schools. That requires joined-up thinking between yourself, who is the Minister responsible for the Welsh language, and obviously the education Secretary. The three issues that they covered, importantly, were the decline in the number of teachers who cover locum work in schools, down by 16 per cent; the ability to have a national portal for the provision of schools to buy into to get cover when teachers aren't in schools; and, in particular, the acute issue of providing specialist cover in Welsh-medium schools, so that the teachers can benefit the pupils by giving them a rounded educational experience. What work will you be doing with the education Secretary to address the concerns that the public accounts committee have identified in Welsh-medium education, so that pupils can thrive with a fully qualified teacher in front of them?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Can I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for those important points? They echo points that our colleague Mike Hedges has often made on the floor of the Senedd about the nature of supply and cover teaching here in Wales. I work closely with my colleague Lynne Neagle on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill, which I am responsible for taking through the Senedd. Stage 1 of that Bill has been in front of three different Senedd committees. All three are due to report by the end of this week, I believe, or the start of next week, on their conclusions as a result of Stage 1 scrutiny. I know, from having followed carefully the evidence given to the Children, Young People and Education Committee particularly, that the issue of the workforce has been regularly in front of the committee. I look forward to seeing what that committee has to say, along with the public accounts committee, and to working with my colleague Lynne Neagle on finding solutions to the issues that the Member has highlighted this afternoon.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding funding for general practice in Wales? OQ62026

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Overall investment in general medical services has increased in cash terms year on year through negotiated settlements agreed with British Medical Association Cymru Wales representatives.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware, with one of your previous roles, of the inverse care law, the fact that those people who are in most need of health services are often those who are least able to access those health services. Cardiff University has recently highlighted that that inverse care law is being perpetuated by the funding that GP practices receive in Wales. Cardiff University have shown that GP practices in our poorest communities are actually getting the lowest levels of funding, despite the fact that those are serving people who have the most health needs. Indeed, one affected GP, Dr Jonny Currie, has said:

'Discovering practices in areas such as ours are structurally under-funded comes as a shock. We hope this research encourages our professional body and colleagues in Welsh Government to find ways of reversing this inequity urgently, before further potential harm is caused.'

I'm sure, Cabinet Secretary, you'll be disappointed to hear that that's taking place in terms of GP funding here in Wales, so I'd be interested to know what you will be doing to ensure that funding for GPs in Wales is fair, ensuring that people who need those health services most are able to access those.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that further question. He's right to point to the fact that Julian Tudor Hart's work on the inverse care law is probably the single most well-known piece of research in primary care in the whole of the twentieth century. It was, for those of us who were here and remember it, very much part of the Townsend formula reforms that were introduced in a very early session of this Senedd.

The research to which the Member refers, I believe, is research into a project that is funded through the Welsh Government, and it's designed to make sure that we are able to marshal our resources to those places where they are most needed. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for health, in a debate here on the floor of the Senedd, made a commitment to ensuring that, should more money become available, that will be used, in part, to address the imbalance that is there between different parts of Wales as a priority for future funding decisions, learning the lessons from that very important project to which Sam Rowlands made reference.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

During the discussion yesterday on the budget, we heard the Member for Blaenau Gwent, Alun Davies, saying that what was important for his constituents in Blaenau Gwent was that they could see a GP when the need arose. Since 2012, we have seen 100 surgeries closing here in Wales and more GPs retiring early or leaving the country because they don't have the necessary resource to carry out their work. That's because the percentage of the funding provided to GPs is a lot less—it's about 5 per cent of the health budget now, compared to the historic position of around 8 per cent. So, when will we see the percentage of funding provided for GPs increasing in order to ensure that Alun Davies's constituents and my constituents, and constituents across the whole of Wales, can see GPs here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

As I said, when that point was raised in a debate on the floor of the Senedd last month, in response to the debate the Cabinet Secretary for health explained that, after the COVID period, it has been necessary for us to fund hospitals to deal with the people who were waiting for treatment. But as he said in that debate,

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

'Redressing this imbalance'—the imbalance between primary and secondary care and between those parts of Wales where the inverse care law is to be found—

'will be a priority for future...funding decisions'.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I was present at the seminar that was organised by the Deep End project, and I think it's very useful that these groups of GPs have got together. I was very interested to read in the paper on social prescribing that was issued in January last year by the then Deputy Minister for Mental Health that 20 per cent of patients consult their GP for what is primarily a social problem. It had some very interesting statistics about an evaluation of Rotherham social prescribing. Given that we no longer have Communities First, I wondered what consideration the Government has given to looking at those issues that don't need to be dealt with by a qualified physician, but are equally important to the well-being of patients in poorer areas. We used to have Communities First, we now have a range of other issues, but joining them up together so that we can target resources on those GP practices where they get the most issues that relate to people's well-being is obviously something that would be useful to try and explore.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that, Llywydd. I think she touches on a very interesting and unresolved debate. There is no doubt at all that as the social safety net has frayed, and as it frayed over that last decade, people make their ways to the part of the system that is still open and available to them, and very often that is the GP. If there's nowhere else to go, you at least know that your GP will see you.

The debate is, I think, between whether the right answer is to strengthen other community services and hope that they divert people from the need to go to GPs, or whether it is more successful for GP practices themselves to diversify and to be able to provide a wider range of services to people who are making their way to their door in any case. There are GP services that run welfare rights advice at the surgery; there are surgeries that have counselling services as part of the suite of things that they provide.

I think it is still an open debate, and an important one, that Jenny Rathbone points to: which is the most effective way of getting services to the person? Do you provide the services and hope the person will go to them, or do you provide the services where the person is going anyway? I don't think we know the answer to that, but at the root of it, as the Deep End project demonstrates, is a need for a strengthening of services that attend to people's social difficulties and doesn't turn every social difficulty into a medical problem for which the GP is expected to provide a pill or a prescription.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

5. How will the Welsh Government’s draft budget deliver for residents in Conwy and Denbighshire? OQ62040

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

With an extra £1.5 billion to spend on our public services and priorities, the 2025-26 draft budget will help rebuild our public services and boost the economy, putting Wales on the path to growth. This budget will benefit people, communities and businesses across all parts of Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Many people in Conwy and Denbighshire will be furious, frankly, that the uplift in local authority funding is less in their area than is the case in places such as Newport and Cardiff. It seems to me, looking at your local government funding announcements today, with the draft budget, that there's quite a big urban and rural split, and there's certainly a disadvantage faced by most of the local authorities, therefore, in north Wales versus some other parts of the country that are more urban.

Given that that's the situation, and that residents in both Conwy and Denbighshire have seen significant service cuts in recent years, along with massive hikes in council tax, what are you going to do to make sure that people have their say when large council tax increases are proposed? And how are you going to address this regional inequality, which has grown under your Labour administration?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I deprecate the Member's efforts always to set one part of Wales against another. The formula that is used is the formula that's been agreed by local government. It is an objective formula, it is overseen by a group of experts who are nothing to do with the political world—they come from the world of business and from academia—and they ensure that the formula distributes the—[Interruption.] It's impossible for me to provide an answer to the Member if he thinks that his answer to his own question is more important than mine. If he wishes to answer his own question, I'm very happy to give way to him.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I think the Minister can now answer the question, if he chooses to do so.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm simply explaining that there is no bias in the formula. It does not advantage one part of Wales over another. It does not advantage urban over rural areas. It is driven by the objective data that the formula is given. It's overseen by independent individuals, and it puts money where the formula says money is most needed. I gave an indication to Peter Fox earlier that I'm prepared to discuss, between draft and final, whether there's some additional help that can be offered to those who, this time, the formula does not provide with the levels of support that others will enjoy. Despite the leader of the opposition's remarks, I'm still intent on doing that.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

When I met with north Wales council leaders last week, organised through the Welsh Local Government Association, I heard how over a decade of austerity, inflationary pressures and growing need, especially with social care, was impacting on the sustainability of delivering services. We have a growing elderly population in Conwy and Denbighshire, with many people retiring there. I welcome the significant capital investment in health that's just been announced, so hopefully the Royal Alexandra, working in collaboration with Denbighshire council, who've successfully applied to the Welsh Government's integrated care fund, will be able to deliver on the plans there.

I congratulate Darren Millar on becoming leader of the Conservative Party, and hear he has appointed David T.C. Davies. Cabinet Secretary, I was wondering how much money Mr Davies secured for Wales when he was Secretary of State for Wales, and how much Jo Stevens has secured in the last five months.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Carolyn Thomas. She reminded me that it was remiss of me; this was my first opportunity to congratulate Darren Millar on becoming the leader of the Conservative Party. I do that. I recognise the persistence with which he too has pursued the Royal Alexandra Hospital issue, and I agree with Carolyn Thomas that the work there should now be coming to a position where proper funding applications for it can be made.

In contrasting the records of the previous Secretary of State and the current Secretary of State, I'll return to the point I made yesterday, Llywydd: for all the influence the previous Secretary of State had, he delivered that £1 million for all our capital needs in March of this year, and Jo Stevens delivered £235 million. I think the record will stand for itself.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

6. How will the Welsh Government's draft budget impact the people of South Wales West? OQ62031

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The draft budget makes substantial provision for investment in the next stages of the Swansea bay city deal. This, together with additional funding across our public services, will have a positive impact across South Wales West.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Whilst the additional moneys for public services are welcome, we cannot forget that this is on the back of pensioners and a £40 billion tax bill on working people. Much of this funding will be absorbed by increasing the employers' national insurance contributions and a pay rise for the public sector, while pensioners in my region will be forced to choose between heating and eating this Christmas. Cabinet Secretary, your budget narrative talks about tackling child poverty and food poverty, but makes no mention of fuel poverty nor pensioners' poverty. What actions will the Welsh Government take to support older people across South Wales West and Wales as a whole?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that, Llywydd. It was remiss of me, if I didn't, not to mention earlier the Fuel Bank Foundation and the additional investment that this budget provides for that foundation. It provides, as you know, additional help for people who rely on prepayment meters, for people in rural Wales who are off-grid, and it has been a great success, since we entered into that partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation to bring its work to Wales.

I did refer earlier, in my first answer to Buffy Williams, Llywydd, to the £1.5 million investment in warm hubs across Wales. We know that they have been particularly places where older people have been able to go, not simply to keep warm, but for all the other advantages that come from participating, alongside other people, in social activities. I'm thinking of Sam Rowland's question and pressure on GPs. The very best of the warm hubs in the first run we had of them were those where people go for other purposes, where there's no sign on the door that says, 'You have to be cold to come in here.' So, it was rugby clubs, libraries—places where people can go for any sort of reason. They may be going there because they need to keep warm. They may be going there for company with others. They may be going because there's food available to them. They may be going to borrow a library book. Nobody knows when you come through the door. And we know that older people particularly have found that the impact that that has on loneliness and isolation has been as important as it has been in other parts of their lives, and this budget provides a further boost to our ability to go on providing those services in the future.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

7. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to ensure that the Welsh Government's draft budget supports the tourism industry? OQ62034

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Russell George, Llywydd. I engage regularly with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to ensure that there is funding in place to support our ambitions for the tourism industry in Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. This is the last session before Christmas, and I want to be as constructive as I can. I'm going to ask a constructive question, hoping for a constructive answer. What the industry highlights is that overnight stays are down, and visitor numbers are down also, compared to pre-COVID levels. On that alone, the hospitality sector is looking for Government intervention and Government support. The industry is of course anxious. It's anxious about national insurance contributions for those businesses that employ a small number of people. They're grateful for the 40 per cent rate relief that's continuing, but, of course, they're aware that that was previously 75 per cent. So, these are some of the big anxieties that they have.

The biggest concern, though, that's raised with me from my constituents in the tourism sector is the 182-day threshold on holiday lets. Now, I'm not asking this question to reopen a debate on the need for the threshold, but I'm asking about the review of that threshold, and whether any exemptions are needed. I would be grateful if you would agree to meet with me, with a small number of businesses—not representatives of the industry, but small businesses themselves, who are genuine businesses—and I would say, if you could meet with me, either here, in my constituency, or virtually, that by the end of that meeting, when they put their cases to you, you will see a need for either reviewing that 182 threshold or bringing forward further exemptions. I wonder whether you would be willing to meet with me on that basis.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Russell George for the constructive tone of that question, as I thank those many businesses and representative organisations in the tourism field that have worked closely with the Government over many years. As far as the 182-day threshold is concerned, in April of next year, we will have two years-worth of data from the Valuation Office Agency, which will give us an indication as to the impact that the threshold has had. And as he said, I am not reopening either the debate or the threshold itself until we have that data, because then we will be able to operate on the basis of the Wales-wide picture, rather than relying on the individual accounts of the impact at that individual level. After April, we'll have that data. At that point, I will be able to discuss that further with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. I'm happy to have a conversation with the Member as to how he and those he represents can feed into discussions we may have at that point.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the progress of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill? OQ62015

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much for that question. The Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill is in Stage 1. The Bill was referred to the Children, Young People and Education Committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Finance Committee to consider and report on the general principles by 13 December. I look forward to reading the reports.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary, and a merry Christmas to you. Could I start by saying that we as Welsh Conservatives welcome most of what this Bill seeks to deliver in terms of reaching the target of 1 million Welsh speakers? I think it's an important part of delivering that. But what we've heard in evidence at the education committee is the importance of the staff and workforce in terms of delivering that target and what this Bill seeks to achieve. We've also heard from the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, for example, about the importance of having a workforce plan as part of the Bill. Now, I know that you haven't committed to making that part of the Bill up to this point, but what assessment have you made of the impact of the Bill without having that workforce plan in place? We as a committee have heard that schools and others believe that it will be extremely difficult to deliver the Bill without the workforce to match it. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Tom Giffard, and I wish him a merry Christmas as well. And I thank him for the supportive and constructive spirit that he has demonstrated this afternoon. I'm very grateful to the three Senedd committees that have been scrutinising the Bill during Stage 1, and I am looking forward to reading the reports by the committees when they are published. Of course, I haven't seen them yet, but I have pursued the oral and written evidence that has been submitted to the committees, and I have seen the argument that Tom Giffard refers to, and it has been a very lively one before the committees. So, I look forward to reading the evidence in detail and the content of the reports in detail as well, and will come back with amendments, if the case is there to do so, during Stage 2, and to do that in the same spirit that Tom Giffard has demonstrated this afternoon.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that item.

2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs and Deputy First Minister. Question 1 [OQ62023] is withdrawn. Question 2 is first. Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

2. What science base does the Welsh Government use when making and applying agricultural regulations? OQ62030

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Mark. The Welsh Government utilises a wide range of scientific evidence when making and applying regulations. This includes academic research, evidence from recognised industry experts, outputs from research and development and data from primary sources, including statutory bodies. Where appropriate, the development of regulations is also informed by relevant impact assessments.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Last month the NFU Cymru Clwyd county chairman wrote to me stating that, at his farm, they had a weekly growth of grass a day that was the sort of growth that they would normally expect in March when they would be able to spread slurry. As he said, 'I'm asked by my members why they cannot spread slurry now while the weather is clement, and ground conditions are dry enough to allow livestock and machinery on the land. The weather forecast is good for the next fortnight. Will it still be so in January when we're allowed to spread slurry again?' He added, 'This simply highlights the problem of using a calendar-based limitation to slurry spreading, rather than the more sensible appliance-of-science approach.'

Science—which the Welsh Government has financed—has proven that weather and soil conditions are more important than dates for the effective take-up of nutrients from slurry. So, what plans does the Welsh Government have, if any, to allow some greater flexibility to regulations such as the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Mark. This is something we regularly debate here on the floor of the Senedd. It's why, actually, we've instituted the independently chaired four-yearly review of agricultural pollution regulations, to consider the effectiveness of the current regime in preventing and, indeed, reducing agricultural pollution, and the review is due to be completed by March 2025. Dr Susannah Bolton is leading that, in her role as chair, to oversee the review. She's engaging with many stakeholders, including the farming unions, NFU Cymru and FUW, but also the Tenant Farmers Association, the Country Land and Business Association, the non-governmental organisations, the Wales land management forum sub-group on agricultural pollution, and she was also at the winter fair as well, indeed, and I've met with her. She has also, by the way, visited, as I have, Gelli Aur college farm to discuss innovations around monitoring of soil, weather, moisture, humidity, et cetera, and that does have potential, but there's a question of scale and scope around that as well.

There's a particular issue, which you've touched upon, Mark, which is related to the start of the closed period, and what we can do with that. So, the closed period for the spreading of cattle slurry and poultry manure for the majority of grassland farms starts on 15 October, and it reopens on 15 January, subject to the post closed-period spreading requirements. The closed period is in force; spreading slurry is a breach of the regulations. Now, the reason for that is it is indeed evidence based, and the purpose is to prevent excessive losses of nitrogen and phosphorus to water, following the application of manures during those periods when the crop growth is limited, and during these periods, when the crop need for nutrients is limited, when rainfall is higher, leaching and run-off does occur, so there could be significant nutrient losses and run-off.

But we do recognise that the wet weather has created difficult circumstances for some farmers. Some farmers have entered into the closed period with more slurry than they had planned for. So, initially, Mark, the advice is: those farms should identify any mitigating measures available to them, including carrying out clean and dirty water separation, minimising rainwater entering slurry stores, and also ensuring features such as gutters and clean water drains are fully functioning. But if any farmers have concerns they will still not have the required capacity to safely store this slurry during this period, then contact NRW to identify help there in mitigating actions to minimise the risk of pollution and discuss the challenges with them.

I have requested officials to review previously, as I've said to the Senedd, to make amendments to the cross-compliance verifiable standards so that a proportional approach can be taken. So, please, any farmer out there, discuss this with NRW.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3 [OQ62038] is withdrawn. Question 4, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

4. What advice does the Welsh Government provide to local authorities and public bodies about the adequate replanting of trees following the felling of mature trees? OQ62014

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Rhys. The Welsh Government’s planning policies in relation to replacement tree planting are contained in 'Planning Policy Wales'. Outside the planning process, there is a need for a tree-felling licence where an owner wants to fell trees that are growing. Felling licences are given with conditions to replant the area to maintain the forestry.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. You will be more than aware that building on any green space, but especially in urban areas, is often controversial and creates strong feelings locally. I've been contacted regularly with regard to felling trees in Cardiff, more recently in the northern meadows area in Cardiff, where local residents were concerned that mature trees were replaced by two whips. Cardiff Council denies that, but I just wanted to know what guidance, exactly, is given. Of course, we heard yesterday from Janet Finch-Saunders about the felling of trees that meant a lot to her personally during the storm. So, bearing in mind that the Welsh Government has declared a nature emergency in 2021, how will you ensure that felled trees are adequately replaced, for the benefit of local residents, but also for the environment? Diolch yn fawr.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

It's a very good question, and I think every Member in this Senedd values the contribution of trees to the local environment, to green spaces, but also in terms of climate change, climate adaptation and resilience as well. And it is important that there is adequate protection for trees against felling, but also, if they are felled, then there is replacement.

And the 'Planning Policy Wales 12'—PPW 12—sets out the land-use planning policies of Welsh Government in respect of this. It provides a strong framework for the protection of trees. And Welsh Government, just to be clear, does not support the loss of mature trees. Our policy sets out that planning authorities must protect trees where they have an ecological value or they contribute to the character or amenity of an area or they perform a beneficial green infrastructure function.

And we also set out that, where there are individual or groups of trees removed as part of a proposed scheme, then planning authorities must first follow the step-wise approach that we describe to maintain and enhance biodiversity and, first of all, avoiding the loss in the first instance, if that can be done.

So, we introduced a new policy in October 2023 that, where tree loss is unavoidable, developers will be required to provide compensatory planting—that is very important. And our policy states very clearly that replacement tree planting shall be at a ratio equivalent to the quality, the environmental and the ecological importance of the tree or trees lost. And this must be preferably on site or immediately adjacent to the site and at a minimum ratio of at least three trees of a similar type and compensatory size planted for every single one lost.

Now I can't comment on the detail of the particular issue at Northern Meadows, because you’ll understand that Welsh Ministers sometimes may have a statutory role in the planning process, but I hope that explains our approach with policy planning guidance—it's very clear, very precise and we expect it to be adhered to.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon in Shotton have been learning about biodiversity loss and the importance of tree planting. Pupils have written to me to say that they want more to be done to protect wildlife and their future. Darcy in year 4 wrote, 'I have been finding out about different animals losing their homes because trees are being cut down. I am very shocked that 17 per cent of wildlife has been disappearing in Wales.' The children have been learning about the 'It's for Them' project, managing verges and amenity grass for wildlife, and have been taking action themselves. Tegan explained, 'We made sure we planted trees near the hedgerow to encourage creatures to make them their habitat.'

Westwood Primary School have also been working on the project. However, the educational resources are not easy to find on the Welsh Government's website. So, Cabinet Secretary, please would you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to promote the project and educational materials to schools and local authorities? And would you congratulate the pupils on all they are doing in their local area and reassure them that the Welsh Government will continue to make nature a priority going forward? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Carolyn, thank you so much for that question. And I'm regularly visiting schools, not just in my own constituency, but around the country, which are taking part in planting initiatives, not just for the sake of trees and woodland cover, but for that biodiversity purpose. And it's inspiring to see, because they get very deeply, very viscerally, the importance of tree planting. So, certainly, my congratulations to those at Westwood Primary School and all those schools now throughout Wales who are contributing so much to our biodiversity gain, as well as woodland cover and the right trees in the right place, and often in places around the school environment or in the community at large as well, which is fantastic to see.

I think we've pioneered in Wales the extent now of initiatives such as the one you described, but also the presence of eco councils now in schools throughout the land, the work of the forestry schools, where children go out from the playground, from the hard standing, from the tarmac, into the natural environment for a deep and profound understanding of the impact of the natural environment on us all, and I think that stands us in good stead for the future. But, yes, I will engage with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to talk about how we can push and promote and highlight this even more, alongside the wider nature initiatives that we do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson first of all, James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in the spirit of Christmas, I'd like to wish you and your family very much Nadolig Llawen.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, James. Thank you.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Cabinet Secretary, what we're seeing is an ongoing saga within Hybu Cig Cymru, as reported by Farmers Weekly and other programmes, which have detailed significant staff turnover—13 out of 30 employees leaving within 18 months—and an atmosphere of bullying, fear and dishonesty. How does the Welsh Government plan to address these seismic issues? Specifically, what steps will be taken to investigate the claims of unsafe, hostile working conditions, including those outlined in the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme, which were highlighted by staff on that programme who wish to remain anonymous, and ensure the leadership of HCC is held accountable for fostering an appropriate workplace and an environment that aligns with the Nolan principles? I have been made aware that a crisis meeting did take place between Welsh Government and HCC. If that has taken place—I'd like to know if a meeting has taken place—what are the outcomes of that meeting, what actions have you told HCC to carry out, and what actions are there for the Welsh Government?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

James, thank you very much. Can I just reciprocate by wishing you, but also all Members in the Chamber, and you, Llywydd, as well, Nadolig Llawen i chi i gyd? Genuinely, sincerely meant as well.

First of all, just to correct you, I don't know where on earth you've got the idea that there's been some sort of crisis meeting with Hybu Cig Cymru. I don't know who you're talking to, who's spreading this on the rumour mill. There has been no crisis meeting with Hybu Cig Cymru. What I do regularly is I meet regularly with the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru, and my officials engage regularly with Hybu Cig Cymru, which, of course, is a sponsored body of Welsh Government. And we do two things in that, two very important things. One is that we are checking on their performance, day to day, their strategic outlook, how they will actually deliver for the levy payers and for the red meat industry in Wales and the success they've had over many years, and to make sure that they're on track and that they're doing it.

Just to say, James, as well—I don't know where you've got this nonsense about a crisis meeting from—I happen to have signed off this morning, just out of interest to Members, the accounts for Hybu Cig Cymru. They are unqualified accounts; it's not often that that happens. This is not, as some might be—I don't know whether it's you—seeking to portray Hybu Cig Cymru—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

That's nonsense. They're rarely unqualified accounts.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Oh, there's some chuntering going on once again, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Darren Millar, I know you want to draw attention to yourself as the new leader of the Welsh Conservatives, but during ministerial questions is not the time to do it, when it's your own spokesperson that is now meant to take the limelight and ask the questions.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Llywydd. The new leader of the Conservative Party continues to chunter like a heckler from the backbenches, but that's up to him. What I—[Interruption.] James, what—[Interruption.] James, what I would say is: (1) we seek to clarify where their performance is, and, I have to say, if you were at the winter fair, as I was—

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I was.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

—you will have heard the reports from Hybu Cig Cymru and the performance that it is delivering for levy payers, but the second is, genuinely, Llywydd, the issues included in the programme covered, issues around internal matters of governance, internal matters of HR process, issues and allegations of bullying and so on, to actually get those direct assurances from Hybu Cig Cymru itself that they have fair and diligent due process happening, that they are looking at anything that is raised with them and are dealing with it properly—and we have those assurances as well, James, just to tell you—and to make sure that everybody is treated fairly within this.

Can I just say one other thing? That is that Hybu Cig Cymru is performing on behalf of its levy payers, but, undoubtedly, the spotlight that is currently on them, and some of the calls—strident calls—out there to scrap them, do away with them, sack the lot of them, this, that and the other, that does put pressure on them and it does affect the wellbeing of individuals who are working there as well. So, I would simply appeal to all Members to be temperate in the way that they ask questions about Hybu Cig Cymru. There are people trying to do a very good job here on behalf of the red meat sector, and they are continuing to do so, and my role as a Minister is to make sure that they are doing that.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

My role as the opposition spokesperson is to hold the Welsh Government accountable—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Then don't listen to the rumours.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

—and you are the major shareholder of HCC. So, I would like to know—. You said no crisis meeting has taken place. So, after the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme was aired, if you didn’t have a crisis meeting, can you confirm whether you met with them following that programme, to have a discussion with them about what was raised and what actions they’re taking to address it? Because I’m sure other Members have seen the letter that came through anonymously from staff about the culture that's in HCC and about some of the things that the chair said on that programme, which they say were not true and she’s misled the public and misled levy payers. I’m sure you’ve seen a copy of that letter, Cabinet Secretary, so I’d be very interested to know what you think of that and how the Welsh Government is going to respond, because what they’ve got a key problem with here is that they had an internal investigation, most of the substantiated claims against an individual there were upheld, that individual is still in the organisation, which is creating a toxic environment for staff, and I want to make sure that all our farmers across Wales make sure that their levy body—HCC—is working for them, and that they’re not bogged down by HR issues.

So, I’d like to know, Cabinet Secretary, what are you doing to hold HCC to account, and the board of HCC, and, if it is found that the chair has misled the public and broken the Nolan principles, will you take steps to rectify that, in the way that we’d expect that to be dealt with?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

So, you put a big ‘if’ out there, but in that ‘if’ there’s quite a strong suggestion of an allegation that the chair has misled.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

It was in a letter that was sent out. I'm asking you—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Right, sorry. So, we have rumours that you’re speculating on of a crisis meeting, allegations with a big ‘if’ that the chair has actually misled people. What I can tell you, James, and appeal to you to be considered and temperate in the way that you approach this, is, rather than rely on rumour and suggestion and whoever you are chatting to and talking to there, to accept that I have not met on the back of any television programme. I meet regularly with HCC, and I’ve met them since I’ve come into office.

So, Llywydd, what we have is a frontbench spokesman here smiling and laughing away suggesting that there is some behind-the-scenes process going on here, that I’d met in response to a tv programme. I cannot be clearer to you, James, that I meet on a regular and systematic basis with HCC, and I seek the assurances in response to any allegations that have come forward—any issues—to make sure that due process has taken place, make sure that the right governance is happening within that organisation, and also that its performance—. You have not asked one question about the performance of HCC. You’ve not responded to what they’ve put out in the corporate strategy, what they’ve achieved in the years gone by, and what they’re hoping to achieve in the years going forward on behalf of the levy payers. And I simply ask you, James: what is the purpose of this line of questioning? Is it to undermine HCC, as you’ve suggested, I understand, externally, that it needs to be thrown up in the air and start something else again? [Interruption.] Well, what is the proposal?

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

My proposal is actually to stand up for the whistleblowers who've come forward and the staff who work there and the levy payers who pay into that body, to make sure it's working in their best interests. That’s what I’m here to do. And I’m sure all the people listening out there will look at this Welsh Government, again putting its hands in the air and saying, ‘Sorry, it’s nothing to do with us, we’re not interested’—. And, by your answer as well, it sounds like you’re not interested in whistleblowers who come forward. So, I say to all those staff out there: the Conservatives, and I know other parties in this place, will listen to you if the Welsh Government will not.

So, I’m going to move on, Cabinet Secretary, to a different area, and maybe you’ll be able to help me in this area, because I’m sure you can’t help me in the last one. The Welsh national flock of sheep has seen a dramatic decline, with nearly 12 million sheep in Wales in the 1990s, to 8.7 million now. It’s the lowest level of sheep we’ve seen in over a decade, and processors and industry are coming to me saying they actually don’t think they’ve got the critical mass of land, now, in the industry to keep some of our processing plants open at full capacity. This is going to cost jobs and livelihoods. It is the job of the Welsh Government to support economic development and support jobs. So, I’ll be very interested to hear what the Welsh Government are doing to make sure that we can increase the amount of sheep that we have across Wales, to make sure that we can continue supplying Welsh lamb to our suppliers here in the United Kingdom, and to our suppliers in Europe and across our trading nations.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, happy to answer that, because there’s a number of strands to making sure that we have good lamb and sheep and other red meat on our tables. Of course, HCC is part of that, and delivering that for the industry; so is what we do with the future of the sustainable farming scheme as well, to make sure that we have the right amount of remuneration going to sheep farmers throughout Wales, including those who are on the uplands as well, and that we, recently, at the winter fair, actually, put forward, as we did here on the floor of the Senedd, the fact that we’ve reached a consensus on an outline for that scheme, going forward.

I just want to say, Llywydd, a suggestion was just made that I’m not interested in whistleblowers or those who bring complaints. I am very, very interested always in those who are whistleblowing. Don’t try and make this a party political instance here, James—

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

You’re making this party political, Huw.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

—where only the Conservatives—you wanted an answer—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Let the Cabinet Secretary to respond.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

—where only the Conservatives are the party of whistleblowers. Let me just say very, very clearly, I am very seized by the fact that if people within HCC or any other organisation have allegations or concerns, they should be able to raise those, raise them clearly, have them addressed, and be due process as well—due process for those who also face those allegations as well as those people who are making allegations. It seems to me that there is a concerted attempt here, unfortunately, to undermine that organisation for whatever reason. Now, I’m very focused on making sure that HCC deliver in two ways: (1) for the levy payers, let me make that clear, because it is there for those levy payers, and, secondly, it does everything it possibly can to respond to any concerns that are raised, and to do them fairly and justly and with due process for all concerned. So, let’s not make this a party political interest, please. There are genuine concerns that have been raised that do need to be addressed by HCC and they are.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperon, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Yesterday, of course, we saw your Government’s draft budget and I look forward to scrutinising the finer detail of that around your particular portfolio responsibilities in the weeks to come. The basic payment scheme budget, of course, is maintained and an additional £5.5 million resource and £14 million capital funding according to the budget narrative for wider rural investment schemes, which, of course, is very welcome. But I’m sure that you, as well as I, would like to put that in context, because that minimal uplift comes against a backdrop of many years of cuts in budgets, most recently, of course, the Welsh rural affairs budget was cut by £37.5 million in the last financial year, and a further year on year cut of £62 million in this financial year, the largest relative reduction of any of the Welsh Government departmental budgets. Now, at the same time, of course, farmers are being asked to deliver more than ever before. They’re being asked to deliver more ambitious outcomes on food security, on climate change and on environmental protection. And, if we want to see the change that everybody wants, I’m sure, then future budgets for the sustainable farming scheme particularly can’t be expected to remain at current levels. Now, farming unions have been clear that, as a minimum, they want to see maintained the equivalent of total historic common agricultural policy funding of at least £337 million per year. Indeed, environmental non-governmental organisations and agricultural organisations have called for £500 million to deliver the public goods required. Now, all eyes will turn soon to the UK Government spending review in the spring.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I do need a question now, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Yes. So, given the urgent need for proper investment in rural affairs, how does the Cabinet Secretary plan to advocate for fair and necessary funding for farmers in Wales? And what case will you be making to your colleagues in the UK Treasury to make sure that our sector receives the resources it needs to deliver the growing demands being asked of it?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, Llyr, thank you for that question, and you make the valid point that the case for farming relies not only on making a case for good food production to the highest animal welfare standards, highest environmental standards, but the strongest case for farming now actually rests on the case that we’re asking them to do far more than that as well. We’re asking them to help us with climate resilience, we’re asking them to help us with nature recovery and restoration, we’re asking them to help us with the controversial issue of woodland coverage in the right place as well, all of those things to do with climate adaptation as well. So, on that basis, we do need the right quantum of funding in there.

Now, I’m pleased to say that, as you’ve seen within the budget, we’ve not only maintained the basic payment scheme at a £238 million ceiling, but we’ve also managed to find an additional £5.5 million revenue and £14 million capital funding to help the sector transition to the new sustainable farming scheme. Now, you raise the other quantums of funding that, actually, in that combination of environmental groups and farmers, they've said, 'We possibly need an additional £500 million, £600 million', and other figures have been mooted as well. That’s why we’re very interested, above and beyond the SFS, in something that we’ve recently consulted on, which is sustainable investment principles—so, the sort of stuff that we’ve done recently in partnership with people like Dŵr Cymru and the peatland restoration projects. We set our targets a year in advance, as you know, but that’s been done by levering in additional funding. The question is: can we find other ways, working with farmers, but also with RSPB, WWF and others, and private organisations, to say—with real integrity funding and high ethical standards that benefit the communities—we could find more? I’m very interested in that piece and in working with anybody who has suggestions on how we can lever even more funding in.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

And working with UK Treasury as well, I'd have thought.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Yes, thank you. Now, I mentioned the sustainable farming scheme, and whilst changes to the SFS achieved through co-production, of course, with farmers and environmental groups have recently been welcomed, many farmers still continue to struggle with the cumulative burden of some other policies, including the practical realities of the closed period for slurry spreading during winter. Given your collaborative approach to the SFS has allowed it to move forward in a more positive vein, doesn’t that also offer a way forward maybe for some of these other issues as well? Whilst I appreciate that an early review of the water pollution regulations is something that you’re bringing forward, wouldn’t it be timely to also bring together a round-table or working groups to work through what you’ve called in other contexts ‘knotty issues’, but particularly in relation to the NVZ policy? That might then help identify and explore more practical and pragmatic ways forward, such as alternatives to the farming-by-calendar approach.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I think there is a job of work to take forward a different approach on a range of issues around farming and land management, water catchment management and pollution that’s not only agricultural but is also industrial and is also a legacy of our Victorian pipe and sewer work as well. So, I am interested in that. But I think, on the agricultural pollution, we need to allow Dr Susannah Bolton now to do that stakeholder engagement, come back with her independent analysis of what is working and what isn’t working and proposals for the way forward. But, on top of that, there’s a bigger piece within it, as you rightly say. We’ve done an enormous amount of investment within the nutrient management boards. We’ve done a great deal of personal capital expended by the former First Minister and others in terms of the river summits and looking at that approach of everybody collaborating in order to clean up pollutions and run-off into the rivers, and so on and so forth. So, there is something in there, but I think we need to give Dr Susannah Bolton time first of all—she’ll report in the spring; it’s not long to go—and then we need to think about how we then bring this, as you say, collaborative, together approach, all owning both the challenges and the solutions into that space, and that we do this together.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Many of us, I’m sure, will be taking a well-earned rest at Christmas and taking some time out with the family, but I’m sure we’ll also be sparing a thought for those who still have to work throughout Christmas, as they do every other day of the year, be they emergency services, those who may well be called upon again to respond to extreme weather events, and farming of course doesn’t stop for Christmas. Farmers will be out in their fields and on their farmyards from the early hours of Christmas day, milking, tending to their livestock, and making sure that the rest of us have good-quality, nutritious food on our tables. As people dig into their Christmas dinners, I think we should take a moment to acknowledge that fact and say 'thank you' to those who provide for us—those who farm, those who graft producing food so that the rest of us don’t have to. And the best way we can thank them, I’d say, is by working for a future where every Christmas dinner in Wales is a true celebration of Welsh produce—locally reared turkeys, vegetables grown in Welsh fields, and all the trimmings sourced from our communities, and not just at Christmas, of course, but all year around. So, will you join me, Cabinet Secretary, in saying 'thank you' to all our farmers, wherever they are in Wales, for everything that they do for us? And can you tell us what the Welsh Government’s plan is to grow local food production, ensuring that more of our households across Wales can enjoy locally sourced festive meals while supporting our farmers and local food producers?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. What a great question. I do think there is more that we can do in this space. We’ve had enormous success now with some of the GI status Welsh foods, which then mean that there’s an increased recognition of local and regionally sourced Welsh products—the best of Welsh products on local shelves as well as internationally. We’re doing a lot more in the procurement space now, including with social procurement, where you can recognise the environmental and the social benefits of local and regional supply chains, rather than lowest cost denominator. We're doing an enormous amount in horticulture as well as agriculture in terms of grant funding, but also other initiatives we can do to expand that space, both on farms as diversification, but also with small growers. I think we can bring much of this together in something that I know that's been long awaited, and we've doing a heck of a lot of work behind the scenes on it, on the community food strategy, which will have very much that focus on those local food networks, the supply and resilience in those local and regional supply chains, and Welsh goodness within food. And, yes, indeed—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

—a Merry Christmas to all farmers across Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

They'll be putting the food on our tables, we'll be enjoying it, and we should think about them as we tuck in.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

5. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government about how enabling more people to use low-carbon heating in their homes can contribute to meeting the Government's targets on lowering carbon emissions? OQ62035

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Siân. I'm working with all my Cabinet colleagues to deliver the actions contained in Net Zero Wales. Our heat strategy sets out our actions to remove barriers and to build an enabling environment for people to decarbonise their homes and adopt clean heat solutions.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Our homes are responsible for 10 per cent of all greenhouse gas emissions in Wales. The net zero 2035 challenge group, which was commissioned through the co-operation agreement, recognises that heating homes is a key challenge to solve. One way to decarbonise our homes is to install heat pumps. Unfortunately, however, Government guidelines put up unnecessary barriers. The guidelines prevent pumps from being installed within 3m of the boundaries of a property, and this is a space that simply doesn't exist in a large number of homes. So, will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to change these guidelines, and to do so urgently?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed, Siân. Before air-source heat pumps became a thing, before they were considered alternatives to traditional fossil fuel boilers, that 3m rule was introduced as a precaution against noise impacts on neighbouring properties. Now, since its introduction back in 2012—we're more than a decade on—heat pump technology has improved vastly, including the technology, but also the noise levels have reduced as well. So, it's a very different product nowadays. We are aiming to publish revised regulations for permitted development rights towards the end of 2025, because it's a recognition that that 3m rule was maybe fit for that time, but the technology has moved on so much and the noise has been reduced so much. What we're hoping is that these will address those unnecessary barriers to installation of heat pumps and ensure also that there aren't any unacceptable impacts to neighbouring properties and local amenities as well, to get the balance right, but to recognise that the technology has improved immeasurably.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Of course, one of the ways in which people can lower their carbon emissions from their homes is to make use of the excellent ECO4 scheme. I know, Cabinet Secretary, you'll be aware that ECO4 is a £4 billion fund provided by private energy suppliers in the UK, and it's managed through the UK Government. Many private house owners have tapped into that. Some think it's too good to be true, but, actually, the ability to tap into that fund is far easier than many people would expect. But it strikes me there's an opportunity for social landlords to also tap into this funding, as it is accessible to social landlords and many of the properties that they manage would be eligible for this funding. So, I'd be interested to hear from the Cabinet Secretary whether he would work with the Cabinet Secretary for housing to ensure that social landlords are tapping into this money, because £4 billion-worth of money needs to be spent over a four-year period so that people living in social housing can have the same benefits as those living in private housing.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, very much, Sam. And thanks for the question, because this is a real opportunity here. So, essentially, low-income households in those cold, draughty, energy-inefficient homes, who either own their own homes or are in the private rented sector, can actually apply for this. Social housing tenants can also apply as well, but we've got other funding routes that they could go through, such as the optimised retrofit programme. And just to say, Sam, we're putting more than £30 million this year into the Warm Homes Nest scheme as well, to reduce the number of low-income households living in cold, damp homes. Also, that optimised retrofit programme I talked about, improving the efficiency of social housing and reducing, by the way, bills, so helping with the cost-of-living challenges that people have, we're putting over £260 million into that over this term of Government, including £70 million for this current financial year. So, yes, the ECO4 approach is there, but there are also other avenues that people can use as well.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the outcomes of Natural Resources Wales’s ‘Case for Change’ report? OQ62032

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Mabon. Natural Resources Wales has critically reviewed its entire range of activities, recognising that delivery of its core functions and statutory duties must take priority. Following its 'Case for Change' consultation, the NRW board approved the changes so ensuring that the organisation continues to focus on supporting nature’s recovery, tackling climate change and minimising pollution.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the Deputy First Minister for that response. Of course, it is regrettable that Natural Resources Wales has decided to close the visitor centres in Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas. I am worried that this will impact the popularity of these attractions and there is very real concern locally that fewer people will visit the centres as a result. So, it's essential to prevent their closure and to ensure that whoever takes over these sites for the long term does so simply and smoothly, and without these places having to close in the first instance. So, what discussions have you had with Natural Resources Wales in order to ensure that the process of transferring these to their new owners is a smooth one and that the centres will not close?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yes, both myself and my officials are picking up the queries and concerns raised by Members of the Senedd, but also the expressions of interest by many organisations around Wales to have a part in either taking over or contributing to the running of these centres. Just to be clear, over this recess, going forward into the spring, people can still go, can still walk and cycle and can go there, and so on. I'm told by NRW that whilst they've concluded their 'Case for Change' and they are indeed focusing, as we've repeatedly said, on their statutory and core duties, they're very committed to responding now to these expressions of interest from local businesses and local community groups in taking over the responsibility for the running of the retail and catering services at those centres. They've recently held three in-person engagement sessions in public, and one virtual session as well, to provide information to people on arrangements for the future of the centres, how they can put forward their expressions of interest, and also how that links into the sites around them.

One thing that NRW are doing that both my officials and I, in our meetings, have raised with them is having some sort of continuity at the sites. So, what they're proposing at the moment, even whilst they respond to the expressions of interest and go through the proper process to respond to those, is they're also developing interim measures at each site for the start of the new financial year, and these could include things such as concessionary arrangements for refreshments at sites, and so on, so that people who are visiting will still have something—as well as going walking or cycling, or whatever, they can also then have some refreshments there as well.

It's important to stress to people that if they turn up this recess or going forward, NRW are still continuing with the management of those sites, and the centres themselves will remain open for all those things, including, if you drive to the sites, the car parking will be there, the toilet provision and so on as well. So, I think we've all got to say to everybody, 'Don't stop going there; these sites are still going to be available to you.'

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

As part of a drive to save £12 million, there are grave concerns that NRW will not have the capacity to fulfil its vital roles, particularly in the face of increasingly severe weather conditions. I just want to put on record, quite often, we've all had concerns about NRW, but I have to say that the front-line staff are absolutely amazing. With the closure of visitor centre cafes proposed, the end of the physical library service, a reduced response to low-level pollution incidents, and the agency's ability to tackle climate change, manage flood risk and protect biodiversity, they are definitely going to be compromised. Indeed, NRW's own flood risk management service is expected to provide options for additional savings of £2.1 million alongside the already 233 job losses in NRW more widely.

I feel the pain when I speak to those front-line hard workers. Is there a way that you could look at reviewing the whole workings of NRW? Because there is a lot of top management there, for me—and we have it in the health board as well—and we should be looking at making sure that those front-line workers, the ones who are out in all weathers, doing jobs that none of us could do, doing hard jobs in really difficult circumstances, have got the maximum resources for them to use, and maybe look at streamlining some of the bigger management roles. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Janet. Can I just agree with you on the staff within NRW who, through the recent storms, but actually in their day-to-day jobs, do absolutely sterling work? But, you are right, it's not just the recent 'Case for Change', where NRW have been, I think, rightly, with the pressures they're under, tasked with focusing on their statutory, regulatory and core duties, and engaging with trade unions on that, but there was a journey before this that they went on as well, as you'll recall from the time we spent together on the climate change committee. A few years ago, they went through a baseline analysis, doing exactly what you currently describe—[Interruption.]—which was looking at every part of the organisation in order to see that the money was going through to the front-line services. Also, then, as a result of that, we gave a significant uplift to NRW, so that they could carry on with that. Sorry, I'm smiling, Llywydd, because, yes—.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I know why you're smiling.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

As part of that, they also implemented cost recovery, as you know, to make sure that they were not subsidising elements that they previously were and were recovering their costs, and then the 'Case for Change'. Now, going forward, we will certainly be protecting significant areas and investing additionally in significant areas, including flooding, flood resilience and flood capacity within NRW, but also maintaining our record spending on flooding and so on. We will be investing in things such as infrastructure and planning decisions, so that they can be brought forward in a more timely manner, because there's often a frustration, and it's to do with lack of capacity. So, both the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and I are very interested in that; we're hoping to take that forward.

We're very keen, also, by the way, as the Cabinet Secretary to the right of me made clear yesterday, in the space around what we can do to strengthen some of the enforcement as well. Albeit that I always want NRW to be empathetic in the way that they do this, there is a need for good enforcement across a wide range, so we're keen on that. We'll also be looking at investment in nature-based solutions and also digital infrastructure to streamline its permitting and its licensing regime. So, we stand by NRW as the go-to regulatory body here in Wales, and we stand by its staff as well. I don't think we need to do another 'Case for Change' or another baseline analysis. We now need to put the support into the right place and let them get on with doing their job very effectively.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with industry stakeholders about its decision not to take part in the UK's deposit-return scheme? OQ62027

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Adam. We have already been actively engaging with many stakeholders and will continue to do so as we develop a deposit-return scheme that aligns with our high ambitions for world-class recycling and material reuse, including glass.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his response. Recently, I visited Brecon Carreg, a mineral water producer in my constituency, and they explained their concerns about the decision to have a separate DRS. They would have to produce bottles with two different labels, and in selling to supermarkets that supply England and Wales from the same warehouses, there would have to be two separate stocks held. Many of the supermarkets have said that they wouldn't then take any produce at all, and then that would have a very detrimental impact not only on this company, but on the sector, which is an important sector in Wales more generally of course. Would the Cabinet Secretary be willing to visit Brecon Carreg to hear their concerns directly and to try and find solutions to those concerns?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Adam, and the answer to the last question is 'yes'. In fact, I'm pleased—it may be serendipitous—but I've actually had a written invite a couple of weeks ago from Brecon Carreg to come and look at their production, look at their facility, look at different aspects of the operation, and to discuss DRS. In fact, it's only within the last few weeks, since we've made the announcement on the way that we will proceed with the DRS, which I believe is the right way for Wales. It matches where we are now as the second-in-the-world recycling nation, and we're a fraction away from being first in the world. That is a benefit of decisions we can make with devolution, that we went ahead to achieve that. But we now need to have a deposit-return scheme that actually delivers on the next stage of our ambition, which is reuse.

I'm really keen, however—even in the last couple of weeks since we made our very clear restatement of our position and our way forward—to work with stakeholders. One of the defining aspects of the work that's been done in this sphere over several years in Wales, in preparing for this, is the quality of the engagement with stakeholders, and we'll continue to do that. I think I must have had four or five stakeholder meetings as groups—probably more than that—in the time I've been in place, specifically on DRS, but I've also been out in the last couple of weeks individually to meet with microbreweries and so on, to say to them, 'We want to devise a scheme that will work for Wales, but also will work for you.' And that's where we need to be very clever.

So, listen, I will be accepting that invitation from Brecon Carreg to go out and meet with them, because I want to learn what their concerns are, but also what the potential is for them as well. Because one of the interesting things here is, if we can put in place a reuse scheme for, let's say, bottles, as well as aluminium and other materials as well, then that may actually have implications of driving down the cost, because you have to heat recycled glass up to 1,500 degrees before you shape it into a glass bottle. If what we're talking about is relabelling, reusing and cleaning ones, then what we've seen in the 53-plus countries that do this is that you can actually bring down the cost basis for people who can then reuse those containers. But, yes, more than happy to go out to meet them.

And just to say very clearly, whilst the deposit-return schemes have been developed in parallel, that in the other three nations and ours, they were being developed as legally separate schemes, rather than one single scheme across the UK. We'd have liked to have gone ahead with the previous position of an all-in-scheme for all of the UK, but we understand there's a different approach going to be taken elsewhere. What we need to do now is develop a DRS that will really deliver benefits to Wales, and that means a decarbonisation reuse scheme, as well as, simply, a recycling scheme.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you to Adam Price for asking this question.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I spoke to Richard Johnson, the head brewer at Tenby Harbour Brewery on this, and he called it illogical. And I'll read you the quote that he said:

'Wales is a recycling nation'—

I agree with this—

'so a blunt "one size fits all" approach creates additional logistical and financial burdens on the smallest producers, when the very largest producers are generating the majority of the recycling demand.'

And I would agree with that. And listening to the reply that you gave to Adam Price earlier, I would argue that you agree with that as well, because the cost implications of rewashing and relabelling these bottles, if they're from a big brewery—Heineken, for example—is much easier than if you're a small independent brewery like Tenby Harbour Brewery, who sell across the UK, not just in Wales. So, why are you developing a policy that advocates in favour of what big international, multinational companies are advocating for and find easiest, and ignoring the plight that this would put on small Welsh businesses across our country?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Sam. We're not doing what you say. What we're actually doing is developing a scheme with the supply chain, listening to them. We have the ability now as we take this forward to actually speak to them and develop it with them. I've actually been out with small breweries talking to them directly, as you have been, and talking through what they'd like to see in this scheme, how they'd like to see it designed so it works for them, so that it isn't simply for large brewers, it's also for smaller brewers as well. We also need to make sure that the scheme works for small retailers as well as large retailers.

It was disappointing, I have to say, that the previous UK Government walked away from an approach to a scheme that was agreed across the four nations and was consulted on; they unilaterally moved away from it. But the great advantage of where we are now in Wales is that we can look to those 53 plus other nations who've done this and have successfully engaged with smaller retailers, smaller brewers, smaller producers in order to get it right for them. So we can learn the lessons of what works really well.

What we will bring forward here in Wales is something that is devised with the help of the supply chain to get it right for Wales. I hope we will have support right across the Chamber for building on a scheme where we've already got to the point where we are second in the world on recycling. What we now need to do is go further into reuse, building on the scheme that we had in Brecon, building on the massive pilot that will come forward in Newport next year. Surely that has to be our ambition, Sam. And I say to all your Conservative colleagues: it's decarbonisation as well as de-littering and recycling.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

8. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with Cabinet colleagues to ensure that the Government's plans are responding to the effects of climate change? OQ62021

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Sioned. We are indeed committed to embedding our response to the nature and climate emergency into everything we do. Our recently published climate adaptation strategy for Wales sets out cross-cutting actions we are taking across all Cabinet portfolios to tackle the effects of our changing climate.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you. The storms and floods that we've experienced over the last few weeks are proof that we need to ensure that the way that we implement policies in so many areas is alive to the effects of climate change. One example, of course, is how we build houses and how we erect buildings. We understand the importance of building energy-efficient homes in order to reduce carbon emissions, but the scenes that we witnessed in Pontypridd and other places recently also remind us of the importance of responding to the more frequent flooding that we're going to see in terms of how and where houses and buildings are built, in order to increase their resilience to this change.

I've asked you before about the willingness of the Government to consider the benefits of industrial hemp, in reference to a study by Aberystwyth University on the great potential of encouraging and facilitating our farmers to grow and process industrial hemp. Hempcrete is a building material that contributes to the capacity of homes to resist mould, it dries out more quickly, and it increases energy efficiency of buildings. In response to me, you've acknowledged that it is a really exciting technology and you promised to discuss with your officials and engage with the UK Government to see what potential is available for hemp in the field of construction. So this is the time to get ahead of the curve, Cabinet Secretary, and put Wales on the front foot with this technology. So do you have an update on this? And would you consider holding a round-table discussion or summit with experts in this field to explore what action the Welsh Government could take?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I'm more than happy to engage with my Cabinet colleagues on the potential of hemp, not only from an agricultural point of view, but also from a building point of view as well. We had hemp producers, actually, at a recent climate-driven house building event that we had in Swansea several months ago, and it was good to see them there, amongst wood builders and so on as well. So, I'm more than happy to commit to that. I notice, at the fear of saying this, that we appear to have in you, Sioned, now an absolute champion for hemp in terms of agriculture, but also hemp in terms of building. It does indeed have potential. One of our focuses at the moment is actually to work on what we know there is already a supply chain in place for, and it's growing, which is those small and medium-scale developers of house building with wood—wood being used for construction. That's a real focus for us. But hemp is a part of the future, without a doubt, as well. So, yes, I'm more than happy to bring you updates as we go along with our discussions here and with the UK Government and others as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Topical questions now. There is one question that's been accepted, from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the events in Syria over the weekend and what support the Government is providing to Syrian-Welsh families? TQ1273

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for your very important question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Earlier today, I issued a written statement about the unfolding situation in Syria. The situation is developing, but we all hope for a political solution that protects all civilians and minority communities. We join the UK Government in calling on all parties to support humanitarian access.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response and thank you for the statement issued earlier.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

The fall of the Moscow-backed Assad regime in Syria has been welcomed since the news broke about this momentous chapter in history over the weekend. This has particularly been the case amongst the Welsh citizens with links to Syria that I have spoken to in the last few days. Some of these people with links to Syria have made their lives in Wales and made an immense contribution to our society, to our economy and to our public services. I note that there was a gathering on Sunday to mark the fall of Assad and celebrate what will hopefully be a transition to a free and democratic Syria. I'm hoping to host an event next week in the Senedd to bring those people together who make up the Syrian-Welsh society.

The weekend's events may have brought old emotions and trauma to the surface for some. There may be a need for counselling as a result of that, so I wonder if that's something that the Government has considered. I want to know also what support and guidance this Government can give to these valued and esteemed members of our society. For example, can the Government liaise with the Foreign Office to ensure that our citizens with links to Syria can have assistance in tracing their relatives that they may have lost touch with during Assad's reign of terror? Can the Government also have dialogue with the foreign office to exert pressure to ensure that the situation does not allow opportunists from the Israeli Government to further their warmongering in the region?

There also needs to be support for civil society in Syria to ensure, going forward, there is protection for all no matter what their ethnic background in what is a very diverse country that includes a sizeable Kurdish population, many of whom have a link to communities in Wales. Such conditions would present the greatest chance of delivering a peaceful and free Syria, which is surely what everybody wants.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much indeed, Peredur, for all those thoughts, reflections, questions and engagement. I think this is an opportunity, as I said in my written statement this morning, to recognise that extraordinary events are unfolding in Syria. The UK Government are monitoring them closely, and are in close contact with our international partners and our many Syrian contacts. Of course, also it is important to respond by saying that the UK continues to support those in need across Syria where it's safe to do so. Through non-governmental organisations and United Nations organisations, the UK is providing food, healthcare and other life-saving assistance.

On 6 December, the UK Government announced an additional £300,000 in funding to the White Helmets—you know the White Helmets, of course. The funding will support search and rescue operations, facilitate humanitarian access, allow the expansion of their existing ambulance system and enable the safe removal of unexploded weapons. We, the Welsh Government, will work with the UK Government to understand any changes, how they may apply in relation to Syrians in Wales, and continue to provide inclusive support for as long as it's needed by people residing in Wales.

As I said in my statement, Wales has become home to over 2,000 Syrians since the conflict began in all our constituencies across Wales—a warm welcome from Wales as part of our nation of sanctuary, when they came to Wales since the conflict began in their homeland. Of course, Syrian-Welsh people and families will be watching developments and will be in contact with families as developments unfold in Syria. But also to make, again, the point, as I did in my written statement, that many who arrived in Wales from 2015 onwards have become valued members of our communities, contributing to our economy, our public services. In Wales, we pride ourselves on being a nation of sanctuary, and we'll continue to monitor the situation and support the Syrian community in Wales as the situation becomes clearer.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I echo some of the points that have been made by the Member for South Wales East. It is vital that support is available to Syrian families in Wales who will be affected by the developments in Syria over the past few days. I'm sure we all recognise that the political situation in Syria is very complicated. The country is now ungoverned and in a very unstable position. I'm sure the Trefnydd will agree with me that, given the limited responsibilities the Welsh Government has in this area, the Welsh Government's priority must be to reinforce its support for Syrian families here in Wales, and work with local agencies to help reconnect families with their loved ones as quickly and as safely as possible. Therefore, can the Trefnydd provide some more details on the work that is being undertaken with agencies across Wales to support Syrian families here in Wales? Can she also tell us what additional support the Welsh Government is making available to help Syrian families in Wales reconnect with their loved ones, should they wish to return to their homeland? Given that this is a reserved matter and not within the scope of the Welsh Government, can the Trefnydd tell us how the Welsh Government will be monitoring this situation in the days and weeks to come?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much indeed, Paul Davies. I do want to assure Members that many Syrians in Wales continue to receive important support, principally from our local authorities, from the local authority resettlement teams, who have played such an important role in welcoming sanctuary seekers through many situations—Syrians, Afghans. They are really important in terms of Afghan refugees and Ukrainian refugees. Those local authority resettlement teams are clear about their responsibilities and the support they give. Many Syrians in Wales, as I've said, continue to receive that support. They can access our Wales sanctuary service, and we'll ensure that the sanctuary website is updated when we know more about UK Government actions and how people can make contact and follow up their family needs and circumstances.

I think it's important to say that the UK Government has been at the forefront of the response to these fast-moving events. They're speaking regularly to regional and other partners, and to ourselves in the Welsh Government, about the unfolding situation. As I said, they are calling on all parties to support humanitarian access, and also to ensure that they play their part in terms of how they can support those in need across Syria, where it's safe to do so.

Just to say there's no consular support available from within Syria to British nationals. Each request for consular assistance from Syria is considered on a case-by-case basis, taking into account relevant circumstances, including, of course, national security. If the Welsh Government becomes aware of consular cases in Syria, we will raise these with our partners in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. There are tried-and-tested procedures in place between the Welsh and UK Governments to provide assistance to Welsh citizens who are affected by conflict or natural disasters. We put these in place, and they do work effectively. I hope that gives the Senedd some reassurance about that support and those connections and links to the UK Government.

Can I take the opportunity to thank all those community sponsor groups as well? I think the first community sponsor group for Syrian families was in your constituency, and then it spread, through Citizens Cymru, across. I certainly had Croeso Llantwit and Cowbridge both engaging with Citizens Cymru, and I know that is the case across Wales. But we will be closely in touch and our local authorities, through our sanctuary board, will be briefing us on developments.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and there is just one today, and I call on Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This week we mark Human Rights Day, which falls each year on 10 December. In his message for the day, UN Secretary General, António Guterres, said that

'Human rights are under assault.... This year’s theme'

of 'Our Rights, Our Future, Right Now',

'reminds us that human rights are about building the future—right now.... We must stand up for all rights—always.'

As chair of the cross-party group on human rights, I’m privileged to work with leading experts in and defenders of human rights in Wales, such as Professor Simon Hoffman of Swansea University’s Observatory on Human Rights and Social Justice. In a blog to mark Human Rights Day, Professor Hoffman has warned that we in Wales should be aware of the rise in so-called populist politics and its consequences, including an increase in hate speech and violence directed at minorities. And we should be troubled by the ongoing corrosive effect of poverty, inequality and discrimination, which is a blight on many communities in Wales and which denies individuals their basic human rights in areas such as housing, health, education and social care. These, he says, are very real and current threats to human rights at our doorstep here in Wales and they show no signs of diminishing. He says that we must remember that all levels of Government in the UK have a responsibility towards meeting the UK’s human rights obligations within their powers, including the Senedd, Welsh Government and other public bodies.

Wales has shown leadership on human rights, and inspired by the positive and demonstrable effect of the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into Welsh law, civil society in Wales have long called for the incorporation of further international human rights, such as those that protect and promote the interests of women and disabled people and the right to adequate housing. Welsh Government made a programme for government commitment to incorporate women’s rights and disabled people’s rights into Welsh law, but the Equality and Social Justice Committee, of which I’m a member, has recently reported on a worrying lack of prioritisation for this work of late.

Human rights are not just—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Sioned, it is a 90-second statement.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes, one sentence, if you would, Dirprwy Lywydd. Human rights are not just abstract ideas. Through different declarations, covenants and Bills, they are actionable standards. They are preventive, protective and transformative, and must remain a priority for us in Wales. In the words of Dr Martin Luther King Jr:

'A right delayed is a right denied.'

Diolch.

5. Motion under Standing Order 16.3 to alter the remit of the Reform Bill Committee

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item is a motion under Standing Order 16.3 to alter the remit of the Reform Bill Committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I move formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have no speakers to this item. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Motion to elect a Member to a committee

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We move to item 6, a motion to elect a Member to a committee. And I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I move.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Finance Committee Report, 'Fiscal Intergovernmental Relations'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Finance Committee report, 'Fiscal Intergovernmental Relations'. And I call on the Chair of the committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like thank all those who gave evidence to the committee as part of this wide-ranging inquiry, and to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and his predecessor for their engagement.

I am also grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for providing a response to our report ahead of this debate, and I'm pleased to see that he has responded positively to our recommendations, with all of those directed at the Welsh Government accepted either in principle or in full. However, it is disappointing that we have not even received an acknowledgement of our report from the Treasury, which sadly reflects a main theme in our report.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we began our inquiry into fiscal inter-governmental relations a year ago, back in December 2023, and published our report in October this year. During that time, the political landscape at both the Welsh and UK levels has changed significantly.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

While our report does not look into whether the change in Government at Westminster has led to improvements in fiscal inter-governmental relations—I believe that it is too early to do that—we were able to look at the mechanisms, cultures, attitudes and processes that underpin those relations. In particular, the committee wanted to shine a light on areas where improvements can be made and to set out some practical steps around how this can be achieved.

In particular, we looked at: the effectiveness of inter-governmental structures in addressing the principles for collaborative working relating to fiscal matters; the strengths and weaknesses of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, or FISC; how the UK Government communicates with devolved administrations around fiscal events, in particular how Barnett consequentials could be communicated in a transparent and timely manner; what processes could be implemented to improve the influence of the Senedd on inter-governmental structures; whether the current dispute resolution mechanisms are fit for purpose; and to examine international examples of inter-governmental relations structures and identify areas of good practice relating to collaborative working on fiscal matters. Taken together, our findings provide a set of clear principles and examples of good practice as a basis for improvements in relations. The committee’s overriding view is that fiscal arrangements in the UK should be underpinned by logical structures and clear principles, rather than the whims or personalities of Treasury Ministers, which too often has been the case.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I now turn to specific recommendations, and would like to start on a positive note. The previous UK Government conducted a much-needed review of inter-governmental structures in 2022. We found that these are a significant improvement on what went before. In particular, the establishment of the Prime Minister and Heads of Devolved Governments Council is a significant development in building trust and effective channels of communication, and we note that the First Minister attended its first meeting in October. There have also been positive developments in relation to dispute resolution, which prevents the UK Government denying the existence of a dispute and applies independent chairing and secretariat arrangements.

We welcome the establishment of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, or FISC for short, which includes all finance Ministers of the UK, and the regular updates provided by the Cabinet Secretary to the committee before and after such meetings take place. FISC in particular has established some modest but important improvements in its working practices, including the rotation of the chair and location, as well as allowing any Government to raise an item for discussion. These changes reduce the hierarchy that previously existed and puts the devolved Governments on a more equal footing with the UK Government.

However, there are still barriers to how FISC operates, and we have concerns that these structures have largely been untested, and we would like to see it developed further. We believe that it should be the core forum for sharing information between Governments on financial matters, including details of funding levels and future announcements. But this has been severely undermined by previous Chief Secretaries to the Treasury, who have viewed the forum with distrust. Whilst this lack of engagement from the UK Government has conversely led to a deepening of relationships between the devolved administrations, a development that we welcome, it is not a sound basis on which to conduct inter-governmental discussions. We have made recommendations aimed at strengthening FISC, to ensure that its processes are sufficiently robust, with the aim of reducing the discretion currently afforded to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in such matters.

Our evidence also indicates that the Treasury continues to undermine inter-governmental relations by treating the Welsh Government as another UK department rather than a devolved Government in its own right and accountable to a devolved legislature. This is clearly anomalous with the principle of mutual respect between the Governments of these nations, and we call on the Treasury to change its approach in order to respect the constitutional realities of the UK. We welcome the work already done in this area by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and support its recommendation that inter-governmental structures should be placed on a statutory footing to ensure a duty of co-operation and parity of esteem between Governments.

In relation to dispute resolution, although the process for escalating disputes within FISC has improved, the committee believes that grounds for raising such disputes are too limited, given that this can only happen where there is reason to believe a principle of the statement of funding policy may have been breached, and asks the Cabinet Secretary to pursue this issue further with the Treasury. But having the right structures in place is only part of the solution. This needs to be supplemented by a robust culture between Governments in the UK, based on respect. Too often, our report highlights instances where those have been lacking, and this has resulted in processes that don’t work to their potential, leading to disappointing fiscal outcomes for Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to turn to other parts of our report that deal with funding arrangements for Wales. The arguments relating to the continued use of the Barnett formula are well documented, and we welcome the Welsh Government’s vision for a new principles-based approach to funding across the UK, overseen by an independent body, and support the Cabinet Secretary in these endeavours.

From the committee’s perspective, the timing of major fiscal decisions can cause significant challenges for both the Welsh Government in preparing its own budget, and for the Senedd in having sufficient time to scrutinise it. We heard evidence that the UK is one of the only decentralised fiscal states that gives such short notice on funding changes. This approach is difficult to defend, and we support the Welsh Government in pressing the Treasury to set the dates of fiscal events well in advance.

We also found that the UK Government’s funding announcement often lacks transparency, and the Welsh Government also faces challenges in learning of these announcements late in the financial year, which causes problems in managing devolved budgets and maximising the funds available. Over the years, the committee has consistently called on Welsh Government to encourage earlier and regular engagement with the Treasury on these matters. This includes a greater voice for Wales in the UK spending review, as well as the delivery of multi-year settlements as a matter of course to provide greater funding certainty.

We have also commented on technical matters relating to how funding decisions relating to Wales are made by the Treasury, and call for greater transparency in this area. In particular, we believe that the Welsh Government’s funding position would benefit from earlier engagement with the Treasury on the development of future statement of policy documents to mitigate project categorisation issues, such as those that arose following funding relating to HS2.

We also heard evidence that the Treasury is able to use its central reserve to circumvent the Barnett formula in certain circumstances, which is a concern. We agree that the UK Government should not be able to arbitrarily allocate additional funding to any part of the UK outside normal arrangements, and again press the Cabinet Secretary to raise this issue with Treasury counterparts as soon as possible.

Another continued area of concern for the committee relates to the fiscal levers available to the Welsh Government. We found that these are often undermined by a straitjacket of rules set by the UK Government. In particular, the Treasury’s imposed draw-down limits from the Wales reserve, and the ability of the Welsh Government to switch capital funding to resource seems unduly rigid, and we called on the Welsh Government to pursue action in this area.

The committee also believes that late funding announcements made by the Treasury should be carried across financial years. We heard evidence in favour of implementing a funding guarantee for Wales, similar to the Barnett guarantee introduced during the COVID pandemic, as a way to provide a degree of certainty to the Welsh Government on the funding available. We believe there are merits in exploring this further, and have recommended that the Cabinet Secretary pursues this with the Treasury. These are modest requests, and we see no reason why these cannot be adopted.

I touched upon the limits of the dispute resolution process earlier in my contribution. As Members will know, budgetary disputes are currently managed through the Welsh fiscal framework agreement. However, we believe the fiscal framework is ripe for review given the issues we identified in our report. We are particularly disappointed that no date has been set for the review to take place, and it is regrettable that this did not take place concurrently with a review of arrangements in Scotland, which was completed in 2023. As a result, we have recommended that the framework is updated, and that this should provide an opportunity to address fundamental issues, such as linking index borrowing and overall reserve limits to inflation, abolishing reserve draw-down limits, and increasing capital borrowing limits.

It's also disappointing that limited progress has been made by the Welsh Government to devolve further powers to introduce a vacant land tax, and note the former Cabinet Secretary’s view that this process is not fit for purpose. As a result, we have called on the current Cabinet Secretary to pursue a review of the process for agreeing new devolved tax powers with the UK Government, as outlined in the Government of Wales Act 2006.

The Cabinet Secretary’s response to these recommendations is encouraging and suggests that this matter will now be progressed, and I ask for the committee to be updated on any progress in this area.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

To close, I’d like to talk about other ways in which the Senedd can play its own part in holding inter-governmental decisions to account. As a committee, we heard evidence that there has traditionally been a lack of input from legislatures into inter-governmental structures and in holding them to account. That’s why we, along with our counterparts in the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly, have established an interparliamentary finance committee forum, which has proved an effective vehicle for bringing together the common concerns of the devolved Parliaments relating to fiscal matters.

However, we have continually felt frustrated with the lack of engagement from the Treasury to appear before the committee and to engage with the forum, despite repeated efforts. The lack of an acknowledgement from the Treasury to this report also reinforces the point. Once again, this points to a basic lack of respect, and we have recommended as a result that the Treasury takes steps to improve the way it engages with the Senedd and other devolved Parliaments. There is a hope that things will change following this year’s UK general election, but we will wait to see whether concrete action will match the rhetoric.

Since the committee started its inquiry, the political context has shifted considerably. We believe, therefore, that this is a timely opportunity to reset relationships, and we hope that this report will inform and strengthen relations between Governments in the UK. Thank you.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

I was very pleased to be part of this inquiry, and I thank the Chair of the Finance Committee for laying out succinctly our findings. We know that the matter of inter-governmental relations is an incredibly important one, especially considering the nature of devolution, and I thank everybody who gave evidence; it was a very interesting inquiry.

It is, of course, in the best interests of the people of Wales for both Governments on either end of the M4 to co-operate and work together to try and improve the prospects for both people and businesses in Wales. I’m glad that we—the Finance Committee—have looked into the matter and have laid out some key recommendations to improve this relationship. What is important, though, is that the Welsh Government does not stop pushing the UK Government for the needs of Wales just because their Labour colleagues are now in power. We have already seen this to a degree, with Labour MPs and Members here abandoning calls for the billions of pounds worth of consequentials as a result of HS2 spending.

I am glad the committee has recommended that the Cabinet Secretary continues to engage with the UK Government to advocate for the needs-based funding mechanism, to ensure fairer funding for Wales and provide an update to the committee on its progress. This will be an incredibly important step in helping to improve the state of public services here in Wales, which are under ever-increasing strain and are letting people down.

The committee has also recommended that the Cabinet Secretary calls on the Treasury to publish detailed workings alongside its funding announcements to improve transparency around devolved funding and project categorisation. This will ensure that there is no confusion surrounding any future infrastructure projects and the impact that spending would have on Wales.

Finally, I welcome the committee’s recommendation for the Cabinet Secretary to pursue the UK Government to undertake a review into the Welsh fiscal framework, particularly increasing the capital borrowing limit. It’s unacceptable that the Welsh Government has fewer borrowing powers than a council in Wales. If we want better investment and more forward planning, we need a Government who is able to look ahead and not just react. We also need additional fiscal borrowing powers. That would provide a useful tool in addressing this.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m glad that the Welsh Government has a good working relationship now with the UK Government. However, we must not grow complacent and let political allies walk all over us. It is down to Welsh Ministers to stand up to their colleagues in Westminster and not just accept any policies that are not in the best interests of families across Wales. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will continue to stand up for Wales. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

May I thank the Finance Committee for your work on this? It is really important, and very timely as well, given that we’re looking for that reset in the relationship. It rightly stresses the need for that urgent reset of fiscal inter-governmental relations after years of neglect and strain.

I think the fact that both the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury declined invitations to appear before the Finance Committee to give evidence on this very issue, and failed to even submit written contributions, in stark contrast to the Parliaments of Canada and Spain, speaks volumes as to the disregard of the previous UK Government towards the devolved administrations. I do welcome the positive change in tone from the current UK Government and an apparent greater willingness to engage constructively on these matters, but this must be shown in deeds as well as words, underpinned by a clear intent to treat the devolved Governments as equal partners rather than subordinate. After all, while the revamped IGR structures established in 2022 were deemed to be a significant improvement on what came before, they were soon ignored in practice, and we all know that, when it comes to our fiscal arrangements with Westminster, Wales is especially disadvantaged. This is encapsulated by the Barnett formula, which was a temporary sticking-plaster solution from the 1970s that was never designed with Wales in mind. And with cross-party support in this Senedd for replacing the formula with a needs-based funding model fit for the twenty-first century, enacting the settled will of the Senedd should be at the very top of the UK Government's to-do list when it comes to fiscal inter-governmental affairs.

I know, in response to a recent question I put to the Cabinet Secretary on this matter, he claimed that some forums weren't the right ones to be debating or discussing this. I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could explain where he believes that the appropriate inter-governmental mechanism is for generating some long overdue traction on this agenda, and confirm, hopefully, in the response, whether he or the First Minister have formally requested a review of the Barnett formula in written correspondence to the UK Government since the general election.

Of course, the withholding of HS2 consequentials is the most obvious example of how the arbitrary application of Barnett has short-changed Wales to the tune of billions of pounds, and, once again, there is cross-party support here for Wales to receive its fair share of the money, as has already happened in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Finally, the report alludes to the need to introduce greater flexibilities to the Senedd's budgetary management framework—something that Plaid Cymru has long advocated for. I think it's a damning indictment of Westminster's arbitrary hoarding of powers that this Senedd remains exceptionally constrained in its ability to manage its own fiscal resources, which means that, by international standards, our position is anomalous for all the wrong reasons.

I very much welcome the report, and hope we do see progress on the recommendations, and I'm sure, as Chair of the Finance Committee, that you will be monitoring closely that that reset happens, but also delivers for this Senedd and the people of Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Dirprwy Lywydd, thank you very much. And thank you to the Finance Committee for this interesting report and for this opportunity to contribute to the debate.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I read the report with great interest. I looked through the Chair's foreword particularly closely and found I agreed very much with the points that were made there, and they've been echoed in what the Chair has said this afternoon, that we need a set of inter-governmental relations that are based not on personalities but on strong and sound structures, backed up by a robust and respectful culture. Structures alone are not enough, and even the best of personalities cannot complete the work that needs to be completed if there isn't a structure there to support that work.

Fifteen of the committee's recommendations fall to the Welsh Government—not all; some fall to the Treasury, and some are recommendations about inter-parliamentary work. But I think if you look at the 15 recommendations and the challenge they posed to the verbal dexterity of the drafters, you will see that the Welsh Government is called upon once to 'engage' with other Governments, once to 'advocate' for a particular position, three times to 'pursue' a particular argument, four times to 'call' for something to happen, and six times to 'press' for a particular outcome, and what those verbs tell you, of course, is that there is no unilateral ability on the part of any one player in inter-governmental relations to make something happen. You have to, inevitably, work with others and persuade others to adopt some of the very sensible recommendations that this report contains. There is some good news, however—since the change of Government, we have seen some positive developments. The inter-governmental relations review, which took four years to complete, did have a council of nations at its heart, and that council failed to meet once under the last Government. It has now met under the new Government, and, in October, the First Minister was able to attend it.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

This FISC is a more longstanding part of our inter-governmental arrangements. A bewildering succession of Chief Secretaries to the Treasury passed in front of it, while my colleague Rebecca Evans represented the Welsh Government throughout it all. It illustrated the point that the Chair makes in his introduction to the report of the limitations of personalities, because, amongst that parade of Chief Secretaries, there were some who clearly wished to work constructively with devolved Governments, and there were some who very clearly believed that devolution was a dreadful mistake and they weren't there to do anything to add to it.

The rotation of chair and location has helped, but the arbitrary nature of some aspects of the FISC and the operation of the Treasury remain deep in its culture. Dirprwy Lywydd, I agreed with almost nothing that Liz Truss had to say, but I did have some sympathy with her view that the culture of the Treasury lay at the heart of the difficulties of the modern British state. And even a change of Government does not guarantee a swift change of culture, because people who have grown up in the Treasury have been there a very long time, and they continue to act in the way that they've been brought up to act. So, in the inter-governmental review, the elements of independent arbitration apply to every other part of Government, but not to the Treasury, because the Treasury simply refused. Despite the fact that the Prime Minister at the time was prepared to sign off the report, the Treasury simply refused to bring itself within that ambit. So, I'm not claiming at all this afternoon that, in six months, all that cultural heritage has been overcome, and that's why we will continue to work alongside colleagues, particularly colleagues from other devolved Governments, to try to improve that culture that we have inherited.

However, there are good things still to be said. In terms of the recommendations, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has confirmed a rolling approach to future spending reviews, and no more cliff edges of the sort that the report points to. We're promised multi-year settlements in the spring statement, which, again, will address some of the points the report makes. There will be a single UK fiscal event each year, and that will mean an opportunity for us to better align our processes here with the processes of the UK Government, something that's been particularly difficult over more recent times, with later and later autumn events intruding on our own timetable. I think there are some prospects that that will be better in future.

And there has been, and this is harder to provide the hardest of evidence, but, if you're involved in it directly, there is undoubtedly a greater willingness from the current UK Government to listen and to engage with the devolved Governments. It's on that basis that I will be looking, with others, to secure those additional budgetary flexibilities that Heledd Fychan pointed to in her contribution, and which we've debated many times here on the floor of the Senedd. It's recognised in the UK Labour manifesto. Now we need to have those additional flexibilities within the system we currently have, being able to manage our own money better, to have the figures in the fiscal framework updated to contemporary values, and then, beyond that, to revisit the fiscal framework itself, to make sure that we have the most effective tools for the management of a budget that, as we were discussing yesterday, is £26 billion, and we're managing it, really, without the tools that are helpful to make the very best of all of that. Now, the FISC will be in Cardiff early in the new year. Fiscal flexibilities are on the agenda for that meeting. They matter to Northern Ireland and to Scotland as well as to Wales, and because when the FISC moves, it's the country in which it is being held that has the chair of that meeting, I will certainly be pursuing those matters with ministerial colleagues.

I will also be asking for progress on the devolution of the vacant land tax. There was a real paradox over recent years, Dirprwy Lywydd, that it was a Conservative Government that put the process for devolving further fiscal responsibilities to Wales on the statute book, and a Conservative Government who absolutely refused to use the machinery that they themselves had set out. I've had a discussion already with the Exchequer Secretary, there's been a meeting between officials, and I am hopeful that we will see more progress on that and that that will answer again one of the recommendations of the report.

I thank the committee for all the work that it has done. I hope that it's a report that will be shared, not just in Wales, but with the Treasury and with devolved governmental colleagues, so that we can use the work of the committee to bring about improvement.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to reply to the debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone for contributing to today's debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Just on that last point, Cabinet Secretary, we will be sharing this with our colleagues in different finance committees in the devolved legislatures as well, and that will hopefully be a topic when we meet to discuss.

Thank you, firstly, to Peter Fox. He talked about the importance of inter-governmental issues when considering the devolved finances and the collaborative way that we need to be working in to make sure that the Welsh Government has the most funding available. I agree with him on those issues and thank him for that. I also thank Heledd for her kind words about the report. The lack of engagement from the Treasury that she highlighted, and that I highlighted as well, does speak volumes, as the committee would like to see further progress in these areas and assurances now that the Cabinet Secretary—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Will you take an intervention?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Yes.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I found the debate interesting, and obviously I saw the information in the report. One of the things that was alluded to in the Cabinet Secretary's response was some sort of suggestion that the Conservative Party has never been helpful in facilitating devolution. What we do know, of course, is that the last referendum on full law-making powers for this Senedd was facilitated by a Welsh Conservative Secretary of State for Wales. That was then implemented by a Conservative Government, and we know that the fiscal powers that the Cabinet Secretary referred to were of course then transferred in terms of those income tax powers. So, would you agree with me that it's important to reflect on the role of all parties in helping to make sure that the Senedd has the appropriate powers that it needs, in the right place, to deliver for the people of Wales, including those particular and specific tax powers that we've been discussing this afternoon?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd agree we need all the powers here, Darren, and I'm glad you're an advocate—[Interruption.] If we're on a roll around independence, and having everything here, then that would be lovely. But the disappointing thing was when you had Conservative Chief Secretaries to the Treasury and the Treasury just didn't engage with this place and with the Senedd, and it was very, very difficult with that element. That was always disappointing. We'll hopefully get a better response, but we're reserving judgment to see how that is.

I see that the clock is completely red, so I'm going to just move on, just quickly, to respond to the Cabinet Secretary and to say, Cabinet Secretary, that verbs are doing words, so deeds rather than words. So, hopefully we'll see what happens when you do engage in hopefully driving some of these things forward. And we did try and be quite creative in the way that we ask you to do things, rather than you getting bored of the same thing constantly. So, hopefully we'll see those actions happening as they come along. But thanks to everybody who has been involved in this, and I hope that we get a more transparent, better fiscal result from this that will empower this Senedd to be as good as it can be. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives' Debate: Housing and homelessness

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 8 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate: housing and homelessness. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Wales is in the midst of a housing and homelessness emergency, and I therefore move our motion, which proposes some practical steps and solutions that the Welsh Government can and should take as a matter of urgency. It recognises that homelessness is currently at the highest level since 2015 and regrets the failure of the Welsh Government to eradicate homelessness in Wales.

In the year to March 2024, homelessness in Wales reached its highest level since 2015, up 8 per cent in a year. The latest homelessness statistics in Wales for September, released last month, show both an increase in the number of individuals in temporary accommodation—11,363, including 2,874 children—and an increase in individuals sleeping rough throughout Wales. Both are higher than at the same time the previous year, with 31 per cent in bed and breakfasts and hotels. In September, the Bevan Foundation said that one in every 215 households and six in every 1,000 children now live in temporary accommodation in Wales. The cost of temporary accommodation in Wales has more than doubled since 2021, rising from over £41 million to over £99 million in the 2023-24 financial year. Based on the average construction cost of £250,000 per unit, this could build nearly 400 additional homes.

The inability of Labour Welsh Governments to tackle homelessness in Wales over the past 25 years underlines policy failure from 1999 that is damaging people's lives, highlighting the need for the Welsh Government to work in listening partnership with our housing support providers to adopt a more effective and sustainable approach that breaks the cycle of hopelessness and delivers for affected individuals and families. This has been compounded by their failure to heed the warnings of the housing supply crisis. Because there wasn’t a housing supply crisis when the Conservative UK Government ended in 1997. But Labour’s focus groups told them that housing was a low priority then, and they cynically slashed funding for social housing from 1997, setting in train the housing supply crisis that was to follow. Labour Welsh Government went even further from 1999. Having previously worked in the sector for over two decades, I know personally that the housing supply crisis in Wales goes back to this period and is the direct responsibility of policy-led decisions taken by Labour and Labour-led Welsh Governments from 1999. Wales is still reaping what they sowed.

Noting the Plaid Cymru amendment, it’s easy to cynically scapegoat the right to buy scheme, so let’s look at the facts. Forty years ago, Conservatives delivered 7,932 new dwellings in Wales, including 2,213 new social homes. Thirty years ago, Conservatives delivered 9,871 new dwellings in Wales, including 3,217 new social homes. In the last year that the Conservatives were responsible for housing in Wales, 1996-97, 10,088 new dwellings were delivered, including 2,571 social homes. In the first year of a Labour Welsh Government, just 846 new social homes were completed. Twenty years ago, this fell to 433, and 10 years ago was just 683. According to Stats Wales, in the last year that full figures were available, they only delivered 4,771 new dwellings, including just 1,035 new social homes, only 47 per cent of the figure inherited from Conservatives, and the projected figures for the current year are no better.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In 2019, the Welsh Government estimated that over 7,000 new homes were needed annually to meet both social and market housing needs, but by last year, they were already almost 8,000 down on this figure. Further, 7,000 new homes falls well below figures identified when the Holman report and reports from the house building industry, the Chartered Institute of Housing, the Bevan Foundation, and the Federation of Master Builders all found that we need between 12,000 and 15,000 houses a year, including 5,000 social homes, which the supposedly caring, supposedly social-just Welsh Government ignored.

It was the second Assembly when the housing sector came together to start warning the Welsh Government that there would be a housing crisis if they didn't listen. All the Welsh Government did, and I still have the scars from when I brought forward a motion supporting the sector's warnings, was put down amendments to remove the words 'housing crisis', insultingly dismissing the warnings from the sector.

The 2012 'UK Housing Review' stated,

'it was the Welsh Government itself that gave housing lower priority in its overall budgets, so that by 2009/10 it had by far the lowest proportional level of housing expenditure of any of the four UK countries.'

Labour's housing betrayal is the greatest social injustice they have inflicted on the people of Wales. Only 5,720 homes have been delivered on average annually in Wales since 2010, barely half the rate delivered in England, and an annual average of less than 900 social homes over the same period. Average housing output fell by 45 per cent from over 9,200 in the 1990s to 5,110 dwellings in the first four years of the 2020s, despite house-building activity in England increasing by 15 per cent over the same period.

In the context of increasing housing need and spiralling house prices, the need to boost the supply of housing has never been more critical, and our motion therefore notes concern that the Welsh Government's 20,000 social homes target will be missed. This Welsh Government only set a target to deliver 20,000 new low-carbon homes for social rent during this Senedd term. According to Stats Wales, however, only 3,858 were completed in Wales by social landlords in the first three and three-quarter years of this five-year Senedd term. Even though the Welsh Government changed the goalposts, adding some homes that are not new builds and not low carbon, and also homes for intermediate rent and shared ownership, Audit Wales still expects them to fall short of their target without additional funding. The extra funding for social housing announced this week in the draft budget doesn't come close to the Audit Wales figure required to build the housing that Wales needs.

Our motion also recognises the importance of a housing first model to end homelessness and calls on the Welsh Government to implement a housing first model and the right to adequate housing to end homelessness, working with the housing support sector in Wales; to turn Wales's empty properties back into homes by expanding the Help to Buy scheme to include those in need of renovation; to speed up the planning process by creating a joint action taskforce of planners to target the slowest performing local planning authorities, fast-tracking applications for affordable housing developments; and to reduce social housing waiting lists by bringing empty homes back into use for social rent and rent to buy.

The Welsh Government has publicly committed itself to a housing first approach, which prioritises getting people quickly into stable homes with wraparound support for any needs they have, such as alcohol and drug dependency, and physical or mental health problems. In terms of delivery, however, the figures speak for themselves. As Community Housing Cymru have told me, their main focus once again is the housing support grant. This needs investment at least in line with inflation, and has to cover the wage increases for 60,000 people. They, and Cymorth Cymru, the representative body for providers of homelessness housing and support services in Wales, state that 81 per cent of homelessness support providers are running services at a deficit. Providers say they need a 9 per cent increase just to cover the increase in employer national insurance contributions, and 74 per cent of providers are likely to need to reduce service capacity if the housing support grant is not increased this year, with 52 per cent likely to make staff redundant.

The Welsh Government must, therefore, recognise the vital role played by the housing support grant in preventing homelessness and reducing costs, particularly to health and social services, by permanently ending its use as a bargaining chip in budget rounds, something they did for many years, and by ensuring that the increase for next year announced in the draft budget is passed on to providers fully and quickly. As the sector states, they seem to lobby very hard to sustain this and help keep people in their homes.

Shelter Cymru and their Back the Bill partners, Tai Pawb and the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, have expressed their disappointment that the White Paper on adequate housing and fair rents does not speak of a right to adequate housing, stating that the Welsh Government currently is overlooking an opportunity to ensure Wales takes a rights-based approach to housing that reflects the moral sense of home as a human right.

They commissioned Alma Economics to undertake independent research, which found that implementing the right to adequate housing will save public money in Wales. As the campaign coalition states, no country has the finances to deliver the right to adequate housing overnight, but this does not mean a right to adequate housing is unobtainable; instead, it is achieved through progressive realisation. They added that they believe introducing the right in law will act as a lever to drive the investment needed.

The right to decent housing has been a long-standing Welsh Conservative policy. Simply put, not enough homes are being built, meaning that supply isn't meeting demand, driving up house prices, rents and waiting lists, whilst the key services provided by housing support providers have not received the recognition and respect that they need over many years to break the cycle of homelessness and reduce cost pressures on blue-light services. This must change. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Siân Gwenllian to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The housing crisis in Wales is one of the most pressing challenges that we face. Thousands of people are living in unsuitable housing, facing uncertainty about the future, and living in housing that swallows up a large percentage of their income. Today, more than 11,000 people are living in temporary accommodation, and there are almost 140,000 individuals stuck on social housing waiting lists, waiting for a safe home and the dignity and quality of life that stems from that.

What has led to this situation? The crisis is the result of deliberate policies and systemic neglect, with the right to buy policy, introduced under Margaret Thatcher in 1981, one of the most damaging policies. This policy allowed tenants to buy their council homes at reduced prices, leading to the sale of around 150,000 social homes in Wales, almost half—47 per cent—of the total social housing stock at that time.

Although some of these homes are now privately owned or are rented in the private sector, the number of new social homes built since then has failed entirely to compensate for that dramatic loss. Only 74,000 homes were added to the stock over the period between 1981 and 2024. The availability of social housing has reduced from 31 homes per 100 households in 1981 to just 18 homes per 100 households today.

The systemic depletion of affordable housing has forced low-income households into an unregulated private rental market, where rents are often unaffordable, uncertainty is rife, and there are very severe consequences arising from that.

Another issue that has exacerbated the crisis is the level of the local housing allowance. Earlier last year, just 32 properties in Wales were available at or below the the LHA rate—only 32, which is a shocking figure. The intention of the LHA is to ensure that low-income households can access housing in the private rented sector, yet it has been frozen or capped by successive UK Governments of all stripes, thereby eroding its value.

This failure to keep LHA rates in line with real rents has created an impossible situation. Families are being forced to supplement their rent from already strained budgets. Increasing numbers of individuals are placed in temporary accommodation. And we know, on top of this, that successive austerity policies, pursued by UK Conservative and Labour Governments over a number of years, have deepened this crisis.

The Welsh Government is trying to provide 20,000 low-carbon homes for social rent by the end of this Senedd term—20,000 new homes. But it's clear that they're not on track to reach that target, and that the additional money that was announced yesterday, although it was welcome, is not going to make a big difference. Looking to the future, we have to be much more ambitious.

The Local Government and Housing Committee recommends that at least 20 per cent of the housing stock should be social housing, rising to a third in the long term. Only significant investment will enable us to provide the homes that are so greatly needed. And we must look at alternative methods of financing this growth.

Finally, and vitally, we have to incorporate the right to housing into Welsh law. Having a roof over our head is a human right, not a privilege. Enshrining this principle in law would send a clear message that Wales is committed to providing safe, adequate and affordable homes for all.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a crisis that stems from political choices. The right-to-buy policy has destroyed our housing stock, and austerity has eroded the safety nets that should protect the most vulnerable. But we have the power to make different choices. We can choose to invest in housing, support essential services, and put the right to a home at the heart of our vision for Wales—a Wales where everyone has a safe place to call home.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Housing to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

I formally move.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'd like to start by thanking the Welsh Conservatives for bringing this debate here today to the Chamber—[Interruption.] I know, I thank my group, Mike, yes. Because, especially at this time of year, homelessness in Wales is not just a growing crisis, it's a heartbreaking reality for thousands of families and individuals across our country. The latest figures reveal that more than 13,000 households were assessed as homeless in Wales last year—an 8 per cent increase. Meanwhile, the number of households in temporary accommodation has reached its highest recorded level, rising 18 per cent in a year to just over 6,400.

These statistics are shocking, but they're more than just numbers; they're lives on hold, children without stability and families without a place to call home. The Welsh Government's White Paper to end homelessness published last year is a step in the right direction, but as Andrew Connell from the Salvation Army rightly pointed out, it will not succeed unless both Westminster and the Senedd tackle the chronic shortage of affordable housing, particularly social housing. Without urgent action, the crisis will only deepen.

A few weeks ago, I saw the human cost of this crisis first-hand, during a visit to Pride in Pill in Newport in my region, led by the incredible Paul Murphy and his team. They told me how more than 500 people in Newport are living in cramped B&Bs, with many more in hostels. Officially, there are 24 rough sleepers, but countless others are invisible in the statistics, travelling from across south-east Wales to Newport in search of just basic support. With 24,000 people stuck on council housing lists in Newport alone, this crisis is overwhelming our communities. It saddens me that, recently, Pride in Pill have not had their lease renewed on their lock-up in Kingsway shopping centre, which means that they'll no longer be able to provide life-saving food packages and clothes to the homeless in the darkest, coldest nights, and will run a reduced operation from the end of this month. The Welsh Government need to work with Newport City Council to ensure that this life-saving operation continues.

Last weekend, we saw a devastating storm sweep across Wales, yet I see no mention of what support this Government is providing to those without a home. What emergency accommodation has this Government provided for the homeless during storm Bert or storm Darragh? We should be trying to house the homeless all year round. However, it's particularly concerning that during these two storms support for the homeless seems to be the last thing among the Welsh Government's concerns. Cardiff Council have introduced 200 emergency beds this winter in churches; it's important that we give all councils across Wales the support to do the same.

Rising costs, cuts to winter fuel payments and changes to council tax rules are forcing landlords to sell or evict, leaving families with nowhere to turn. Even basic dignity is being stripped away for many made homeless, an example being there being no public toilet in Newport, a large city in my region, after 18:30, forcing desperate individuals to defecate in the streets. We need to see local authorities and the private sector building many more houses, and we need to ensure that house building keeps pace with the increasing population. Over 20,000 people have arrived illegally in this country since the Labour Government took over. They will join the growing numbers of people who are expected to be housed. Governments across the UK must build that accommodation.

At first glance, the latest housing figures for Wales may seem promising—a quarterly increase of 63 per cent in housing statistics is certainly welcome, and the annual rise in housing completions, over 20 per cent, is the highest in the UK. These are encouraging short-term signs for a sector that has struggled in recent years, but let's not be fooled by these headlines. Beneath the surface lies a story of long-term failure and neglect by this Welsh Government. Despite the quarterly improvement, Wales contributes just 3.2 per cent of UK housing statistics, well below the share of the population and a stark reminder that housing output is far behind where it needs to be.

Even more concerning is the Government's failure to address the chronic shortage of affordable housing, leaving countless families priced out of the market and local councils overwhelmed. These short-term figures, driven largely by private enterprise, do little to mask the deeper systemic failures. Homelessness will not end until we take bold, immediate action. Wales urgently needs to ramp up its housing input, particularly affordable and social housing, to meet the scale of the crisis. The Welsh Government must demonstrate ambition and commitment to resolve this issue head on. Let us move from words to action, for the sake of every family waiting for a home and for every child growing up without stability. I urge you to support this—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Will you take an intervention? I know it's close to the end of your time, but with your indulgence—

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

It was literally my last sentence.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

One of the fantastic organisations that is very visible around Christmastime dealing with this issue of homelessness is the Salvation Army, which celebrated its one hundred and fiftieth anniversary here in Wales this year. Will you join me in commending them for their work and their efforts on this important front, and wish them all the very best as they undertake a huge fundraising exercise over the Christmas period in order to make sure they've got the resources that they need to be able to help tackle this problem?

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Absolutely, I will definitely join you in that, thanking them for all of their hard work. It was lovely to see them, thanks to your invitation, Darren Millar, in the Senedd the other week, celebrating 150 years of work that we're so thankful for. What would we do without it? What would we do without that? We shouldn't have to rely on their work, as it happens, and the Government should do everything they can to support them. For the sake of every family waiting for a home and for every child growing up without stability, as I said, I urge you, Chamber, to support our motion today. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

As it's December, and in a spirit of Christmas cheer, I will begin my speech on the grounds of the motion, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Firstly, I am confident that across the Chamber we are all united in our desire to see an end to homelessness. Secondly, I very much welcome the Welsh Conservatives' support for the housing first model. This model is already being used successfully across Wales, and I would personally be very pleased to see its use expanded further.

Unfortunately, though, I can find little else to agree with in the rest of the motion. Under Clement Attlee's Labour Government, the state directly provided funding to councils to be invested in social housing, and this led to hundreds of thousands of social rented homes being built every year. Maintaining that supply met demand and house prices and rents remained at affordable levels. And when Margaret Thatcher came to power, her Conservative Government withdrew funding for councils to build their own social housing. As a result, social housing and building plummeted and house prices rocketed. But stopping councils building social housing wasn't enough for Thatcher, the Conservatives went a step further. They also—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Would you take a little intervention?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Yes.