Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 20 November 2024

273 contributions from 36 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon’s Plenary meeting. The first item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary explain why the timetable which was drawn up in 2023 for appointing an employer's agent for the Llandeilo bypass has been delayed by five months? OQ61873

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are currently procuring an employer's agent, which should be complete in January 2025. Then a contractor will be procured to design, finalise the business case, and draft orders under the relevant Highways Acts required to enable the proposed improvements. And I'm pleased to report that there are no delays to the current programme.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The Minister for climate change, who was then responsible for this project, did make a statement—in fact, it was actually earlier this year, in February 2024—about an accelerated timetable. Following that, I was informed that the employment agent was to be appointed in August of this year. You just said that they’re going to be appointed in January. That is a five-month delay. Will that have a knock-on effect on the later stages in the project development? I was informed that the early contractor involvement award was going to be made in December 2025 and that the draft orders were going to be published in May 2027. Any further delay would be a matter of grave concern, because this is already a project that is eight years now in the making since the original decision. In fact, we had other questions on this when you were last in this ministerial role. Can you reassure us that there will be no further delay to this project and that the original dates that I’ve just shared with you will be kept to?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I think the Member for his supplementary question, and whilst there was a slight delay in the previous element of the programme, there is no delay in the current programme. If I could just outline the target dates for the project to be progressed and delivered: following the appointment of the EA, the Welsh Government will procure an early contractor involvement—an ECI—in winter 2026, and then further outline design development will continue in 2026 to allow the drafting and publication of draft orders and the environmental statement in spring 2027, as the Member outlined.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

2. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on road connectivity in south-east Wales? OQ61900

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Road connectivity in south-east Wales reflects the area’s mix of towns, villages and cities. The network is anchored by several major roads and motorways facilitating movement within the region, supporting the local economy, as well as connections to key developments and employment areas in mid and west Wales.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and, as you'll know well, the Monmouth constituency in south-east Wales has some of those most important trunk roads: it has the M4, obviously, connecting Wales to London; the A465 between Neath and Hereford; the A40, travelling from Fishguard to London; and, obviously, the A48 that runs through Chepstow and links Carmarthen through to Gloucester. So, some major trunk roads. But the A48 is a specific concern, because it's something that has cropped up many times, certainly, in my inbox, and I know in the Government's inbox, especially around the congestion we have at Highbeech roundabout, which is where the A48 meets the A466. Much traffic comes from Gloucestershire and other parts of Monmouthshire and feeds down onto the M4 and the M48, and it is a nightmare, Cabinet Secretary. I've spoken with the Government over several years and there've been plans to do more and more to alleviate the situation there. So, Cabinet Secretary, could I ask for any updates that there may be on potential works to improve Highbeech roundabout? And could I request, perhaps, if you're in the area, that you meet with me and look at some of the very important congestion issues that we have in Chepstow?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd be more than happy to meet with the Member on site to see for myself the congestion in that area. His area of Wales is very similar to mine in that it is a key access point on a cross-border basis for motorists travelling to England, as well as motorists travelling into Wales. In regard specifically to Highbeech roundabout, I've asked Transport for Wales to complete the Welsh transport appraisal guidance 1 and 2 studies by the end of this financial year. That will then lead to the agreement of a preferred package of measures for the roundabout, and it's likely to include changes to the existing road network at the roundabout and also improvements to public transport and active travel. Now, once that package of measures is identified, we'll be working with the south-east Wales corporate joint committee and seeking inclusion of the proposals in the regional transport plan, so that it can then seek the investment that is required to deliver the upgrades.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, in the Severnside part of my constituency, campaigners, local councillors and Monmouthshire County Council have long campaigned for a short link road, linking the M48 with the B4245, which would also link with Severn tunnel junction. This is an area that's seen an awful lot of housing growth over a sustained period of years, and the infrastructure just hasn't kept pace with that rate of development. I know you're familiar with the issue, Cabinet Secretary. I wonder if you might perhaps, when you come to meet with Peter, also meet with local campaigners and Monmouthshire County Council to consider the issues on that potential link road at this current time.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd be more than happy to meet with them, absolutely. If I could just give some background information to this particular stretch of road, though, analysis by the Burns delivery unit suggests that a link would actually increase traffic on the M4 towards Newport, and so they gave very considerable caution to whether it should actually proceed. That said, if the corporate joint committee decided that, after considering all of the impacts on the south-east as a whole, it wished to move as a priority to deliver the link, then the Welsh Government of course would reconsider the case for it. And that includes the possibility of reclassifying the M48, if it can be shown to have wider benefits for the region.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, it's not often that I stray too far from my region of south-east Wales. However, I recently crossed the border and headed to Rhondda Cynon Taf, donning a boiler suit. With my transport hat on, I met with the fantastic Rhondda Tunnel Society, a group that I know has the backing and support of my colleague and their local MS Joel James. Many people believe the life of an MS is glamorous, but, having delved 1,000 ft underground, crawled through plenty of mud, and re-emerged looking like I'd been dragged through a hedge backwards, I certainly beg to differ. Regardless of my dishevelled state, it was a truly fantastic visit, and the society have a grand vision for Rhondda tunnel, which, if delivered, will really put the area on the map. The group is working to turn this historical defunct landmark into Europe's longest walking and cycling tunnel, which would transform it into a must-see attraction, enticing both locals and tourists from further afield. This truly remarkable initiative could be delivered with just under £15 million-worth of funding. Cabinet Secretary, the group would be delighted to meet with you, to share their plans and take you down the tunnel. However, if you don't fancy putting on your wellies and getting stuck in the mud, I'm sure an online meeting or somewhere above ground would be greatly appreciated by the society. Either way, Cabinet Secretary, will you agree to meeting with the society, to find out a bit more and explore what steps the Welsh Government can indeed take to get the ball rolling? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd love to meet with the society again; I've met with the society in the past. I think there are a few Members in this Chamber who are yet to experience the warmth of the Rhondda Tunnel Society. It would be a great pleasure not just to meet with them again to discuss the potential of it becoming a must-see—and, indeed, a must-do—attraction, but I'd also welcome the opportunity myself to go into the tunnel because that is an experience I've yet to enjoy.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. I look forward to seeing your experience on social media.

Cabinet Secretary, it was recently revealed that purchases of pure electric cars—in fact, used cars—have reached record levels, with more than 50,000 cars changing hands between July and September this year. However, it has been warned that a lack of charging infrastructure is causing motorists some nervousness, and this could, indeed, be putting them off from making the switch. As you know, I've consistently been pushing for more charging points to be rolled out all across Wales, and I have started looking at other countries around the world to see what they're doing. One country that really has caught my eye was Sweden, with plans afoot to build the world's first e-highway in Stockholm. Now, I'm not deluded—the chances of this Labour Government rolling out something similar to that may be pretty far-flung, given it is a major challenge to get your party to invest in our current roads, let alone building new ones. But other countries are, indeed, leading the way when it comes to electric vehicle charging points, Cabinet Secretary. Norway has more than 34,000 charging points across the country, with a goal of hitting 500,000 by 2030. And the Netherlands has one of the highest densities of public charging stations, with a ratio of one station to every five electric cars. So, Cabinet Secretary, a year on from the Senedd report that branded Wales’s progress in getting more EVs on the road, and I quote, 'embarrassing', I would be grateful if you could please shed some light on what the Welsh Government has done to improve the situation. And I’d be curious to know if you’ve been looking at similar initiatives from other countries as some form of inspiration. Thanks.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I thank Natasha Asghar for her question and her interest in this subject? It’s a subject that I’m also very interested in. I think part of the challenge with infrastructure to support EV cars is being able to predict where technology is going. And with Toyota recently saying that they’ve been able to develop a solid-state dry battery cell for vehicles, that could have major implications in terms of the range of vehicles. My understanding is that it could lift the range of the average electric car to around 800 miles, which would be game-changing in terms of the need and the requirement for EV charging on the motorway network. That doesn’t, though, prevent us from focusing very much on at-home charging and support for at-home charging. The UK Government, I believe, already offers support—financial support—for people looking to have an EV charger installed at home, but our focus is very much on how we can adapt those most intensely urban areas, particularly streets with no off-road parking, for the arrival of electric vehicles on a mass scale, particularly with the phased elimination of new internal combustion engine-driven cars. So, that’s where are focus very much is as a policy. But we also are encouraging the market itself to develop new and innovative solutions to the problems with EV charging. And the example that the Member has pointed to today follows another example that the Member pointed to during our last oral question. There is great innovation out there; we need to harness it, and we need to make it attractive within Wales to invest.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, just last week, the Motor Insurers' Bureau released data collected over two years, which has unveiled that, on average, every 20 minutes, someone is hit by an uninsured or a hit-and-run driver in the UK. They’ve also found that, so far this year, 115,000 uninsured drivers have had their vehicles seized. The horrific, traumatic and physical impacts of injuries from these incidents are huge, and often even more distressing when considering the perpetrators of these incidents have fled the scene and just left victims on their own to process what, indeed, has just happened. As well as this, it is significant to note that injuries caused by hit-and-run drivers are estimated to cost the economy almost £2.5 billion a year in emergency services, medical care, and loss of productivity and human cost. So, with that in mind, Cabinet Secretary, I’d really like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to support victims of hit-and-run incidents, and how the Government is going to be working with key stakeholders to clamp down on these crimes, going forward. Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

It’s a very, very timely question, because I yesterday met with equivalent Ministers from the devolved administrations and the UK Government, and we met in part to discuss the latest work of the UK insurance taskforce. And part of that work considers the impact that uninsured drivers are having not just in terms of insurance premiums, but also in terms of the impact on the police, emergency services and hospitals. I’d be very pleased to provide an update to Members on the work of the UK insurance taskforce.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. The aim of any transport network, or transport Secretary for that matter, is straightforward—it’s to get people to where they want to go, when they need to be there, whilst taking into account cost, accessibility and sustainability. People deserve the certainty that their train will run on time, or, at the very least, that it will show up. But right now, these basic expectations are simply not being met. Taking train journeys in Wales, for example, people are struggling to reach their destination by train. Data from the Office for National Statistics shows that only 50 per cent of people in Wales live within 30 minutes' walking distance of a train station, leaving many reliant on their cars and an increasingly limited bus network. Just recently, we learnt that the construction of the new HS2 station in England will add an extra 15 minutes to several routes in south Wales until 2030. This only adds insult to injury, knowing that Wales will not receive the billions it's owed from spending on HS2 in England, while Labour in Wales refuses to stand up to Keir Starmer to rectify this injustice. And on the issue of costs, research from the TUC found that rail fares have increased at twice the rate of wages since 2009. This is simply unsustainable for the average passenger. So, what does the Cabinet Secretary make of this? Would he agree with me that the rail network underperforms and doesn't meet the basic standards expected of a transport network, and what is he doing about it?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think, Llywydd, I could probably talk for some time on this very subject. So, what I suggest I'll do is issue a written statement on performance, on the latest position regarding rolling stock and the farebox. In brief, though, I think the Member is absolutely right that the purpose of a transport network is to move people and goods as swiftly, efficiently and in the most sustainable way possible. But to pick up on some of the very, very specific points you raised, first of all, we have not given in on HS2. There's a very big difference between collaboration and confrontation. We are collaborating with the UK Government to get a better deal than the £320 million to £350 million consequential that we would receive otherwise, and that's through working jointly through the Wales rail board in identifying the pipeline of improvements to infrastructure across Wales. And where we've been able to direct that infrastructure improvement, for example here in south-east Wales with the metro, we are seeing huge benefits in terms of reliability, which is better than the average across the network as a whole, and in terms of frequency, and in terms of the arrival of new electric trains. There is still more to do across the TfW network, of course, but at the moment reliability stands at 76 per cent of trains arriving within three minutes of the scheduled time.

In terms of driving the farebox, which is crucial in ensuring that it's sustainable, I'm pleased to say that Transport for Wales have increased passenger revenue this financial year by £27 million. They have met our stretching targets and exceeded them. They have also—and I think this is really, really important in terms of making sure that we have a sustainable rail service—seen the highest passenger growth across Britain, with a passenger growth this year of 27 per cent. So, in terms of delivering for passengers, reliability has improved, cancellations have been reduced, and in terms of the outcome for passengers and the taxpayer, the improvements will be there as we seek to further increase the farebox, and in so doing reduce the level of subsidy required.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I appreciate the answer, and I agree with you on some parts of it. Obviously, we would want the consequentials as well as the investment; it's not an either/or. So, that's that.

But I'd like to turn to look at Avanti West Coast in north Wales. Last year Avanti was directed to develop an improvement plan to tackle the poor performance issues on vital routes across the north Wales coast. Earlier this year, more than 20 per cent of Avanti West Coast services on the north Wales main line were cancelled on the day, and the timetable has yet to return to pre-COVID levels. These cancellations are causing significant disruption to commuters and are harming the economy. The route plays a vital economic role, linking the port of Holyhead with the rest of the UK rail network. It also serves as a key route for students travelling from across the UK to study at Bangor University in north-west Wales. Yet, this essential line is being run into the ground by the operator and has proven inefficient. I understand that the UK Government may strip Avanti of its franchise earlier than anticipated and potentially bring it into public ownership, if it fails to meet its improvement plan and services. Could the Cabinet Secretary please explain why services in the north of our country are so poor and what his department has been doing to hold Avanti to account?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity to put on record how disappointed I am with Avanti's performance and how much I look forward to the creation of Great British Railways, under the UK-led Government, to take back that franchise service. Because the Member is absolutely right, over the years performance has declined, and not just performance, the number of services operated by Avanti West Coast has dramatically reduced, and we're way past COVID now, so COVID can no longer be used as an excuse for not reinstating those services.

I met recently with the transport Secretary, Louise Haigh. We discussed Avanti, we discussed the process of creating Great British Railways and, vitally important, the part that we now will play, and the Senedd will now play, in specifying future services, because they affect a huge number of people travelling by rail, not just in north Wales, but also with CrossCountry in Wales, and also GWR. So, we're going to be having a greater role, a greater say, in the specification of those services in the future, and that's as a result of two Governments working as one, and the Member is also right to point to the proportion of cancellations that we've seen of late with Avanti. The very, very latest figures still show that cancellations are in double figures, and that's simply not acceptable.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Cancellations in double figures—so, you get that information. It brings me on to a question possibly closer to home for me, in my region in south-east Wales, and looking at performance. I was recently contacted by frustrated constituents. As I've outlined today, they find that their basic expectations of the rail network are simply not being met. Their entire family is actively trying to use public transport, including local train stations as part of their shared commitment to reducing their carbon footprint and embracing sustainable travel. However, they're growing increasingly frustrated by the number of key commuter services from Rogerstone station that are being cancelled. Given that the service runs through the town only twice an hour, just one cancelled service can mean a huge impact on whether or not they arrive in work on time or not. With this in mind, could the Cabinet Secretary please inform us how many direct trains from Ebbw Vale to Newport have been cancelled since the service began, if you've got that detail on you, or you could write to me if you don't? And what impact has that had on the Newport economy, local road congestion and on citizens, especially marginalised groups who lack the access to private transport? And could you tell me what 'good' looks like, and what you would expect from a cancellation rate, if anything?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, again, can I thank the Member for his question? Another opportunity to just outline the success that we are seeing here in Wales where we have control over services, and it relates to the new trains. We've ordered £800 million of new trains for the network, and they're contributing to the increasing reliability and punctuality that Transport for Wales is reporting. But even in spite of the £800 million of new trains, almost half of delayed minutes of Transport for Wales services do not relate to the trains; 44 per cent of delayed minutes relates directly to matters concerning the infrastructure, and that's why it's so important that we work with Great British Railways and the UK Government to get the investment in our infrastructure that we need; a consequential of £320 million to £350 million simply wouldn't pay for it. We need to have a significant sum of enhancement investment, and that's what we are seeking to agree very soon.

Now, in terms of the rolling stock, I must also say that I was staggered this week, when I was joined by Vikki Howells for the arrival of the first electric train for the metro, to be told that the last time before TfW introduced a new train—the last time that Wales saw a new train with the former operators was 1991. We're going to take a fleet that was one of Britain's—indeed, one of Europe's—oldest train fleets that we inherited from Arriva Trains Wales in 2018, of 270 trains—that's how many we inherited; one the oldest fleets—and by the end of next year, we will have one of Europe's newest fleets, comprising not 270 trains, but 484, and I know of no other part of Europe that is seeing such a rapid increase, a substantial increase, in the rolling stock and the decrease in the average age of trains running on their networks. It is something that I think we should be proud of. I know that there is some way to go in terms of reliability, but I do believe that the scale of the ambition is being realised.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

3. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the junction safety improvements needed in mid Wales? OQ61891

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Welsh Government routinely review personal injury collision data from the police to identify collision cluster sites to then inform the local safety scheme programme, and the collision cluster sites criteria on the strategic road network is four collisions in three years within 100m. This work would include junctions.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much for the response.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I just wanted to raise the junction of Pontybat, which I've written to you about on quite a few occasions. Pontybat junction is between Llyswen and Bronllys, and in 2021 the trunk road authority identified Pontybat junction as a priority for improvements after 10 collisions in five years. They drafted plans for a four-arm roundabout, yet, despite these plans being ready to go, local people and the community council are still waiting for yet another assessment, which is to be updated.

Powys endures Wales's highest rate of road deaths and serious injuries per capita in Wales, and the A470, which we know is a very long road, but home to the Pontybat junction, remains one of Wales's most dangerous roads. Alongside the other commitments you've made to visit many junctions and roads here in the Siambr this afternoon, I wonder if, on your road trip, or perhaps in your helicopter, you might be able to drop in with me to the Pontybat junction to meet residents and the community council to see, actually, the site and the concerns that people have. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jane Dodds. For the record, can I just clarify I do not have a single helicopter? I have three. [Laughter.] [Interruption.] Absolutely. I would very much enjoy a site visit with the Member and to meet community leaders and residents in the area. I am pleased to say that we committed to undertaking a study, as the Member knows, at Pontybat, in line with the new, proactive approach to road safety, which I'll come to in a moment. We're hoping to begin that process either later this financial year or in 2025-26. So, that's our target.

I mentioned the new, proactive approach that we're taking. In the past, data would be utilised using collisions—just reported collisions. We've gone to personal injury collision data, because it more accurately reflects what is actually happening with reported incidents, and it also enables us to identify those areas at greatest risk, including the junctions. So, we're taking a more intelligent approach to planning and being proactive in terms of implementing road safety measures. But I'd be very happy to come and see the site myself and to meet with residents.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. How is the Welsh Government supporting the provision of bus services in South Wales West? OQ61874

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We provide significant financial support to bus services in south-west Wales, including TrawsCymru and Fflecsi services. The forthcoming bus legislation will introduce franchising to allow us to support the industry, and local authorities to deliver improved bus services in the region.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. Since its introduction over 10 years ago, the bus services support grant has remained static at £25 million. If it had risen in line with the consumer price index, it would be worth £34 million today. The Confederation of Passenger Transport Cymru recently published research showing that every additional pound of investment into improving bus services generates nearly £5 of benefit to the economy, and also to the environment and people’s well-being. So, while I'm proud to say that communities in my region will be at the forefront of the move to franchised bus services once the Government bring forward the highly anticipated bus Bill, the local network continues to face enormous challenges. Wales is now the only nation within the UK where passenger numbers are still lower than before the pandemic, despite the emergency investment in maintaining services the First Minister outlined yesterday.

So, can I ask whether the Cabinet Secretary will consider an increase to bus funding for services in the budget? What actions are the Welsh Government taking now to ensure passenger numbers grow in order to make more routes sustainable, ahead of the introduction of the bus Bill? And are you looking at and assessing the impact of and learning from initiatives both here and outside of Wales, such as the Scottish Government’s free transport for young people scheme, or local initiatives such as that in my region of seasonal free bus travel by Swansea Council? Diolch.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Again, it's a very timely question, because during the conversation that I had with other Ministers from other administrations yesterday, we agreed to share innovative practices and the outcomes from them and to share further information regarding legislative change.

Now, I'll take a number of those points, if I may, Llywydd. First of all, in terms of the funding, we've allocated £0.25 billion for passenger services since COVID to support the network, and, at the moment, we’re spending something in the region of £180 million a year on learner travel. So, the public investment in public transport, when you combine it with rail, is enormous indeed. And my Cabinet colleagues regularly remind me of that when it comes to discussing budgets. It would not be appropriate for me to discuss today or to make suggestions today about where budget discussions are going within Government, but I’m hoping that we will be able to meet the Government’s priorities of protecting bus services as we move towards franchising, which will make an enormous difference.

On passenger numbers, the picture varies quite considerably across Wales, and what the data shows is that, whilst fare-paying passengers have increased back to pre-COVID levels, it’s the concessionary fare passengers who’ve not been attracted back, and I think that’s worth further investigation. I’m looking at working with various groups to understand what it is that is inhibiting or preventing people with concessionary passes from returning to the bus network. And I think there’s a key role, actually, there for the older persons' commissioner.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, one of the biggest barriers to wider adoption of buses as an alternative to the car is the large variation in cost to take public transport in Wales. However, across the border in England, there’s a £2 cap, although this is set to become £3 in the new year. How will Welsh Government ensure an affordable, dependable network going forward?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I thank Altaf Hussain for his question? He makes a crucially important point that bus travel has to be affordable for the travelling public. And where the Member previously had identified the great economic benefit of investment in bus services, for me, it’s actually the benefit in terms of driving social justice and access to opportunities, particularly for the lowest paid and the most vulnerable in our society. That’s really, for me, the greatest value in investing in bus services.

Now, in terms of learning from other areas and how we may mirror such programmes, of course, we’re considering various programmes across the UK, including a programme that, albeit temporary, is soon to be in operation again in Rhondda Cynon Taf, I believe, which is a flat fare during the month of December. What is for sure is that it’s the reliability and punctuality of services that drives increased patronage, and also the degree to which you have a functioning network across a functional region, if you like—a travel-to-work region. Ultimately, it’s our ambition, through franchising, to create one timetable, one network and one ticket for all public transport, and that will include a fare regime that is fair and transparent.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the progress of the south Wales metro? OQ61889

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Electric trains are now operating on the core Valleys lines for the very first time. This is both a historic moment and a significant milestone towards delivering the south Wales metro. It is only possible thanks to our investment of over £1 billion to transform the network into a 'turn up and go' service.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for your response. This week, we’ve seen the opening of the new Porthcawl metro link as part of the south Wales metro plans. I recently attended a meeting of the Porthcawl Shout Forum—a meeting of residents in Porthcawl, where issues are raised, and I know you’ve accepted a number of invitations today, but you have also been invited, so you’re more than welcome to come along. There were two issues raised about the new bus station. First of all, there are four routes, currently, going from the bus station, but, looking at one as an example, the one that comes here to Cardiff Bay takes nearly two hours, and there’s no toilet included in the new metro link bus station in Porthcawl, and people locally seem to think that that might be a bit of an oversight on the part of the metro scheme. Secondly, it was established to—and I quote—improve public transport links across south-east Wales. Now, you’ll be aware of the geography here; we are on the very western point, if you like, of the south-east Wales, Cardiff capital region and residents are worried that this new bus station, this new plan, doesn’t sync up with journeys that might go west in the future, particularly as the Swansea bay metro scheme is much further down the track, if you like, than the south Wales one. So, how will you ensure that projects like this that fall between, if you like, geographical regions actually serve the interests of the populations that live on both sides of these barriers and are not just self-contained within that one region?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank the Member for his question. He makes a really important point that there has to be cross-border planning in terms of services. We've got the regional transport plan being developed for south-west Wales, and the regional transport plan being developed for south-east Wales, but there's a critical role that's being played by Transport for Wales in ensuring that they are interfaced.

Now, with the legislation that we're bringing forward in March of next year, it'll be followed by an intense period of planning, and that planning will look at regional networks—zones, if you like—for bus services. South-west Wales will be going first with the franchising, and we'll be able to then ensure that, with the franchise services that come in south-east Wales, they are fully planned and integrated with the assistance of Transport for Wales. I know that it's a journey that will take some years, but it is a journey that will be worth it. And the amount of work that will be required cannot be overstated, but it is work that we are determined to progress with.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

6. How is the Welsh Government investing in bus services? OQ61868

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We continue to provide vital funding to local authorities to support local bus services across Wales, recognising the essential role these services play across our communities. We also continue to build upon our existing TrawsCymru network through further improvements and the introduction of new routes.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Thank you. Responding to my colleague, the shadow transport Minister Natasha Asghar, regarding bus services yesterday, the First Minister stated that the finance Minister must operate in line with her priorities, and that the Welsh Government is working with Transport for Wales and local authorities to plan and implement bus networks. Independent research compiled by the Confederation of Passenger Transport, which found that every £1 of additional investment and improving bus services would generate £4.55 of further economic benefits, has already been referred to.

Given the high cost of bus franchising evidenced in Manchester, which included a council tax levy, how, therefore, do you plan to maximise these benefits, what specific work are you doing with local authorities in north Wales and elsewhere to identify opportunities for bus priority schemes and to provide capital investment to deliver them, and how do you plan to support the industry to navigate the additional funding challenges created by the additional cost to national insurance, following the UK Government budget, estimated at £800 to £1,000 for each employee?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, there are various questions that are being raised by the Member. I am going to repeat again, though, the headline fact that we have invested £250 million in bus services since COVID. That’s a huge sum of money that has maintained a network that is so vital for people across Wales, and that’s in addition to the money that we also invest in learner travel. I cannot overstate the importance of the bus Bill in providing us with a vehicle to ensure that we have a national integrated public transport system that responds to people’s needs. We will be working with the sector, not just during franchising, but between now and the point at which franchising will begin, to capture as much innovation, ideas and creativity to solve the problems of today, but also to embrace the opportunities of tomorrow. And the Member once again raised a key fact that, for every £1 invested in bus services, more than £4.50—I think it’s £4.65 in total—is accrued by the economy that it serves. But, again, I would stress that my priority is to drive social justice in terms of the provision of local buses, and to make sure that, whether you’re a learner, whether you’re employed, whether you are seeking employment, whether you’re seeking services, or for leisure opportunities, and particularly if you’re vulnerable, you’ve got a bus that’s turning up regularly and on time, and that’s what we’re striving to achieve through legislation.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Transport for Wales's penalty fare zone expansion? OQ61867

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Transport for Wales expanded their penalty fare zone on Monday 18 November. The penalty fare zone now covers north Wales main line services east of Llandudno, some Cambrian line services, as well as services to Liverpool and Manchester.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We've spoken several times in the past about Transport for Wales’s penalty fare zone expansion and the issues it is causing for passengers, particularly when it comes to concessionary passes. However, the problem hasn’t exactly been rectified, Cabinet Secretary. Signs have been put up at the Severn tunnel junction warning people that they run the risk of being fined if they board the train without a ticket. On the signage it says that if you cannot buy a ticket online and the station office is closed then you must get a ‘promise to pay’ ticket from the platform machine. Yet despite these signs at this very station there is no option on the machines to get a ‘promise to pay’ ticket, leaving travellers in a rather precarious position. Passengers potentially face being slapped with a fine because of this sheer failure. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you please instruct Transport for Wales to look into this as a matter of urgency to rectify this issue ASAP? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I absolutely will do, because I'm not familiar with those signs and the fact of the matter is that, if you are unable to buy a ticket before you get on the train, there is discretion there for the conductors and enforcement officers to not apply a penalty fare. Indeed, all conductors are able to sell tickets on the train not just to people using cashless payments, but also to people using cash. Mencap at the weekend raised this very issue, so I'm pleased to be able to assure Members that cash can be used.

The whole point of penalty fares is to crack down on those who are deliberately dodging paying for tickets. We are not pursuing prosecutions wherever possible because we do not want to put people into the criminal justice system and run the risk of people having criminal convictions. Instead we apply penalty fares, which are a far more proportionate way of dealing with ticketless passengers. We've estimated that the cost of fare evasion, that's people who deliberately avoid paying for tickets, is around about £10 million annually to Transport for Wales. It's a significant sum of money. It's a significant sum of taxpayers’ money that could otherwise be spent on improved services, more services or in other public services, so we want to make sure that the system operates fairly and proportionately, and that we recoup any money that is deliberately being withheld. I very much welcome the review by the ORR, the Office of Rail and Road, into revenue protection measures across the UK. It was announced by the Secretary of State for Transport. We're very keen to contribute to that review, because I do believe there has to be a level playing field and consistency across the UK, because different operators are adopting different discretionary measures. That needs to be ironed out and I'm looking forward to contributing to that review.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

8. What is the Welsh Government doing to support active travel in Cardiff North? OQ61894

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Welsh Government is supporting walking, wheeling and cycling in Cardiff North through providing funding for infrastructure improvements, community and school initiatives. By fostering confidence through safer infrastructure and inclusive programmes, our goal is to provide long-term benefits for communities, encouraging active everyday journeys for all.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for that response.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

According to Cardiff Cycle City, the Taff Trail is the busiest commuter and leisure cycling route in the city. It's a wonderful route for people to take, with a trail running alongside the river and covered by trees the majority of the way, and passing through my constituency of Cardiff North. Issues with pedestrian safety have been tackled, and improvements are also proposed for a section of the trail in Hailey Park, while ensuring the protection of the wild waxcap fungi in the park, of which I am a species champion. We must ensure that our active travel network is accessible for all: for cyclists, for walkers, for disabled people. So, what more can the Welsh Government do to improve the Taff Trail in Cardiff and other trails throughout the city?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Julie Morgan is very, very fortunate to have the Taff Trail running through her constituency. It's a fabulous trail, it's hugely popular for people of all ages, and I myself enjoy the Taff Trail as a running route. I think it's fair to say that there are too many places, though, where the route is too narrow to accommodate all users comfortably, and I'm especially concerned for blind and partially sighted citizens. I know that the Member has invited me to meet with the Royal National Institute of Blind People, and I will happily do so, to discuss those pathways that are too narrow, not just on the Taff Trail, but elsewhere as well, where there is heavy congestion of both cyclists and pedestrians.

We've provided funding to Cardiff Council over a number of years to improve sections of the Taff Trail or to construct adjacent routes as well, to alleviate pressure at bottleneck locations. For example, recent investment includes construction of ramped access onto the trail from Western Avenue, where previously there were only very steep steps, and Cardiff Council is also currently reviewing their original plans for the Taff Trail through Hailey Park and working on revised proposals to be submitted for funding. We, and also colleagues at Transport for Wales, will support the authority to ensure that the proposals meet the needs of all users.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 9, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the performance of Transport for Wales services on the Cambrian line? OQ61884

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course. Overall in 2024, Transport for Wales services have been more reliable than other operators in Wales. TfW put a plan in place last week for services on the Cambrian line, in response to the current fleet situation. This will provide consistency and clarity for customers, as well as improved reliability.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. Now, the Government, rightly so as well, encourages people, of course, to use public transport, but people aren't going to use a train service if they can't get a seat. Perhaps they will do, perhaps they're prepared to do that for a short journey, but not for a long journey. And they're not going to do that when trains are, on a regular basis, overcrowded. There have been commitments after commitments for additional rolling stock on the Cambrian line for several, several years, and those commitments have consistently, sadly, been broken. I get correspondence on a weekly basis about the poor service on the Transport for Wales Cambrian line, despite what you say.

One constituent, last week, tells me that he got on the train, there were two carriages, he got on one, there was difficulty getting a disabled passenger onto the train because it was overcrowded, and passengers were standing in the aisles. That, of course, made the journey very difficult from Newtown to Shrewsbury, which is very uncomfortable, and when they stopped at Welshpool, even more people squeezed onto the train and, of course, he puts the question, 'What would happen if there was an accident?', as there was in Talerddig the other week as well.

It would be great to have a service where people could actually get to a toilet, a toilet that was clean, and have room for prams and pushchairs and bikes, et cetera, get Wi-Fi, and have a food cart that regularly comes up the train. These things aren't common, I'm afraid, on the Cambrian line. But the most basic of things is to actually get a seat. So, can I ask when will we be in the position when I can stop standing up in this Chamber asking for people to have a good service on the Cambrian line?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Russell George for his question and the opportunity to share with Members the latest information regarding the deployment of new trains on the Cambrian line? Brand-new trains are of course operating in many areas across Wales and, next year, we will see them introduced onto the Cambrian line. And I think the Member makes a really important point regarding space and capacity. So far, we have delivered 223 new trains, and in total, there are 365 carriages for use—that's a 35 per cent increase in the number of carriages that we inherited. But it's still 120 or so short of the total fleet that we will see next year, providing vastly increased capacity and far more seats across Wales, including in areas served by the Cambrian line, routes that people in Russell George's constituency depend on.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be the second set of questions this afternoon, the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. The first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. What is the Government doing to combat poverty among older people in South Wales East? OQ61893

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for your question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Between 2022 and 2025, we've provided support worth almost £5 billion to support people in Wales, including older people in South Wales East, through programmes to alleviate financial pressures, help maximise income and keep money in the pockets of Welsh citizens.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Much like the argument about HS2 funding, there was once agreement between Plaid Cymru and Labour that women born in the 1950s had been conned out of the retirements they'd planned for. Women who had carefully calculated their pension pot had the rug pulled out from under their feet by the Tories' premature state pension equalisation policy. This has meant that thousands of women are now spending their golden years in poverty through no fault of their own.

Now that Labour are in a position to do something about it, after winning the last general election, just like HS2, we have not seen or heard anything yet. There was an opportunity to put things right at the recent Westminster budget, but it was missed. When it comes to doing the right thing by 1950s-born women, what pressures are you putting on your party colleagues in Westminster to come good on all the promises that you made whilst in opposition? Will you also reiterate your commitment to getting justice for these women?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, thank you very much, and I'm grateful for that question, Peredur. It is very close to many of us in this Chamber, the campaign for those women, the 1950s women. Many different campaigns: WASPI—. We have actually all got women in our constituencies and women in this Chamber who are affected by this, and we've taken a consistent line in support of those women to seek justice for them. So, this is something where I will follow this up, not just with the UK Government, with the pensions Minister, but also take stock again with those who are leading the campaign in terms of what they would like us to do. I mean, you know that there had been some progress, and I would say that Stephen Timms, who was formerly Chair of the select committee, had been very robust and constructive with this. He's now in the new UK Government. So, I will take this back and then share the responses with the Chamber, with colleagues.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you have seen the latest DWP statistics highlighting just how catastrophic the decision to remove winter fuel payments from pensioners was. It seems that 50,000 extra pensioners will be thrown into poverty next year, and another 50,000 by 2030. Now, we know Scottish Labour have had the sense to go against their leaders in Westminster and pledge to reinstate the payment in Scotland, whilst sadly Members and Ministers here continue to defend the appalling decision. Cabinet Secretary, with that in mind, how many pensioners in Wales need to be plunged into poverty before the Government condemns this devastating policy?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, we continue to support all those at risk of falling into fuel poverty. It is important that we use all the levers that we have to do that, maximising the levers, continuing to invest in our fuel voucher and discretionary assistance schemes to help people with fuel costs, getting more money into people's pockets, maximising incomes, making sure that people can and still do apply. They still have time for pension credit in order to access the winter fuel payment. In fact, at a meeting with the Older People's Commissioner for Wales recently, we agreed that we needed to continue to join forces to encourage older people to claim pension credit by the December deadline.

But I think it is important just to tell colleagues that this is very much a Welsh lever that we have, that is, the discretionary assistance fund. Between May 2023 and 30 April 2024, more than 70,000 awards were made to older people in crisis from the discretionary assistance fund. Also, another lever we have is our council tax reduction scheme, which provides essential financial support to almost 260,000 households, and almost 102,000 pensioners are in receipt of the council tax reduction scheme, with over 76,000 paying no council tax at all.

So, I think it is also important, working with the UK Government, to acknowledge that, in terms of their pension credit uptake campaign, they are writing to 6,600 Welsh households directly—that's the Department for Work and Pensions—in Wales, who they've identified are eligible for pension credit, because as you know, there has been a disappointingly low take-up of pension credit, Peter Fox. So, those households are being invited directly to claim pension credit. And of course we have seen the intervention of authorities like Neath Port Talbot, with Policy in Practice demonstrating that we can, through working with local authorities, directly approach pensioners, and through the 'Claim what's yours' campaign, that people can take this up.

I think it's also really important to recognise the £30 million this year that we're investing in our Warm Homes Nest scheme, because that's what we need to do: ensure that people are living in homes that are warm. That helps us to tackle fuel poverty for home owners and households renting from private landlords, and it's free expert energy advice that's so important through that programme, via the Nest helpline.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

2. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with Cabinet colleagues and the UK Government to co-ordinate post-release support for prison leavers? OQ61886

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Luke Fletcher. We work closely with the UK Government to support people in custody, assist with their rehabilitation, and ensure that they're supported on release. And by working together with our local authorities and partners in the third sector, we ensure that the relevant public services are available to those leaving prison.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm afraid the reality on the ground is very different to what you set out in your answer. The impact of the UK Government's early release scheme is being felt acutely in my region, especially in Bridgend where we have Parc prison. Many of the people being released at the moment are being released with little or short notice, with little support; some in the early hours of the morning; some having meetings organised for them, but then not being released in time for them to actually attend those meetings; and some with nothing more than the shirt on their back to their name.

Rebecca Lloyd, chief executive officer of BARC community outreach centre in Bridgend, has contacted my office several times about the scheme’s impact. She has told us that she's seeing, on a regular basis, and I quote, 'People walk from the prison onto the streets, and that then people are deliberately reoffending to return to the relative security of prison.' These people are now bracing for winter, which is going to be about survival. Many of them in the area rely on services like Rebecca’s when local authorities struggle to source housing. So, how is the Welsh Government engaging with and supporting those organisations on the ground, and what work is under way with the UK Government to find a more permanent solution, because the current arrangement is consigning people to misery?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, thank you very much for your question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

You will recall, it was on 12 July, shortly after the general election, that the Lord Chancellor, Shabana Mahmood, gave a speech explaining that if prisons were to run out of places, courts would be forced to delay sending offenders to jail and police unable to arrest dangerous criminals. And it is a crisis made be the former UK Government, and I'm sure you would agree and recognise that crisis.

This is a short-term response, but, obviously, we need radical, long-term reform of our justice system. But I think the importance of looking at the early release scheme is that it was a decisive action that the Government took to address the capacity issues in prisons. We have been engaged in the process. It's not devolved, of course, but we've been involved in the process, and we were represented on the taskforce that oversaw the implementation approach, and represented on the Wales-level implementation board led by HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales. Importantly, and this is the issue about what happens when you are released, as you described, housing officials are involved with our local authorities, working closely with the Ministry of Justice, HMPPS and probation.

So, obviously, it has to be, as well, about lessons learnt from the first tranche. The first tranche of release was 10 September. The feedback has been that relationships worked effectively between probation, housing and health leads. But I will, of course, meet with, and I did in fact meet with the Minister, Alex Davies-Jones, prior to the early release, and I will be meeting her again shortly, and feeding back to HMPPS. So, it is important that you shared those points with me today.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

I thank my colleague for raising this important issue. Cabinet Secretary, sadly, the reoffending rate remains stubbornly high, particularly among women. One of the main reasons many reoffend is due to the lack of support, such as housing and mental health support. In a recent interview on Sky News, highlighting the homelessness issue in Bridgend, one interviewee spoke of the likelihood of reoffending just to have a warm bed for the winter. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that this is a sad state of affairs? And will you outline the actions that the Welsh Government will take to ensure that those leaving prison are provided with accommodation and all necessary support?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain, and, again, an extremely important question following on from Luke Fletcher’s question. We have a homelessness support and prevention budget. We provide over £267,000 to support accommodation provision for people leaving prison, and this includes £90,000 to co-fund six accommodation pathway co-ordinators, and that's in collaboration with His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service across Wales. We also have a Prison Link Cymru service in north Wales—vital support provided for people leaving prison and reducing the risk of homelessness and reoffending.

In terms of offender housing and resettlement—and this is working very closely on the, as we call it, jagged edge between devolved and non-devolved responsibilities—we have a community accommodation service tier 3. It's been rolled out across 12 local authorities in Wales. It offers people who'd otherwise be at risk of homelessness on release from prison up to 84 nights temporary accommodation. To date, 165 bed spaces have been created. And, as I've said, we have accommodation pathway co-ordinators across Wales.

We also, I think, importantly, have learnt lessons from the post-custody accommodation working group. And Shelter Cymru has been funded this year to deliver housing and homelessness advice and assistance to women and transgender individuals in custody at HMP Eastwood Park. This is through a combination of regular physical presence and remote working at HMP Eastwood Park. So, what’s important is the way in which we are responding in terms of our responsibilities, working in partnership, of course, with the UK Government, and that the funding is being made available.

But I would say—and I responded to Luke Fletcher on this point earlier on—that the Lord Chancellor had to take decisive action because of the long-standing capacity issues in prisons as a result of the failures, I have to say, I'm afraid, Altaf, of the former Government. This is the sustainable early release scheme that we were talking about earlier. But we actually need radical, longer term reform of the justice system. Our vision for justice is for a preventative, trauma-informed approach that also addresses the underlying causes of offending, stops crime happening in the first place and keeps people out of prison.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, I was very encouraged by the UK Government appointment of James Timpson as Minister of State for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Offending. In his own businesses, he’s shown an example of taking on ex-prisoners, which is so important to them. It gives them the opportunity to rebuild their lives for themselves and their families, it reduces reoffending, and it’s a very effective and worthwhile policy. I just wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you could work with businesses in Wales to give them confidence to go down this route. Statistics show that 90 per cent of employers who have taken on ex-prisoners are very satisfied indeed with the performance of those staff, and it’s worth while for society in general, as we know.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, John Griffiths, very much following on from the points I have made as to how we can keep people out of prison with a preventative approach, but also those who are in prison, to intervene and to support to prevent reoffending. I was very pleased to meet Lord Timpson, the UK Government Minister of State for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending. That’s his title—there’s never been a title like that, certainly not with the previous Government. We discussed our shared priorities, and you will be aware that he’s been very clear—publicly clear—about the fact that he doesn’t believe that all people should be in prison, particularly women, but also that we need to look at the prevention opportunities.

It is important that prisoners have access to the Working Wales advice and guidance service, that they have impartial employability and careers advice. We do have Working Wales advisers who act as a referral point to the Welsh Government, to employability and skills support programmes. Learning and skills development is devolved, so we are responsible. It is important, the message you give to businesses, because this is something, also, with probation, where we can work to ensure that, as happened many years ago—unfortunately, it was stopped by the privatisation of the probation service by the former Government—. But that experience, particularly for people on probation, leaving prison, and making sure that they have got the support—so, working directly with prisons and prisoners to provide meaningful skills and employment upon release—will clearly help with preventing reoffending.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you to Luke Fletcher for this important question. It's so easy for us to forget about prisoners. Trefnydd, I don't quite agree with your analysis that the early release programme has led to this problem. Perhaps it's brought the problem to the fore, but it's an old problem. The lack of support in prison, and then after release from prison, is a problem that goes back decades, and, indeed, is a problem that the previous Labour Government were involved with. There was a huge increase in the prison population under the Tony Blair and Gordon Brown administrations.

One key way of ensuring that people don't reoffend is that they get the right support in prison, that they get the mental health and the physical health support within the prison. The cost of health expenditure in public prisons in Wales is £7.1 million, but the block grant is £2.5 million, and this has remained static since 2004, without taking into account inflation or the increase in the prison population. It is crucial in terms of rehabilitation and reducing risk that people have the right access to the treatment and medicines that they need. I saw that when I was a criminal barrister—I saw that clients weren't getting the medicines and support that they needed.

This issue, in terms of the shortage in the block grant, has been raised a number of times by Dr Rob Jones and even by the Health and Social Care Committee here. So, has the Trefnydd spoken to the UK Government about increasing the block grant? Because the gap we have at the moment is simply not sustainable. Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for your question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

It is important that we also see what we're responsible for as a Welsh Government and what the UK Government is responsible for, and how we collaborate. You raised very important points. In terms of offender health and mental health provision, we do have a partnership agreement for prison health in Wales. It's an agreement between the Welsh Government, HMPPS, health boards and Public Health Wales. It's jointly chaired, again, like much we do, across the two Governments. But I think it's important for me just to quote from the priority from that agreement:

'prison should be a place where an individual can reform their lives.'

It commits to

'the shared objective of ensuring those in prison can live in environments that promote health and well-being and where health services can be accessed to an equivalent standard of those within the community.'

Indeed, we've also recently published the 'Better Learning, Better Chances: prison learning and skills provision' policy. So, we've got the policies, we've got the partnership, we've got the collaboration, and we've got the determination, very much led by Lord Timpson, to address these issues, in partnership with the UK Government and HMPPS. I'm looking forward to meeting Dr Rob Jones from the Wales Governance Centre in the next couple of weeks, with colleagues from HMPPS, particularly to look at his really important factfile on prisons and sentencing in Wales, and the more recently updated one for 2024.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, Wales's communities are becoming increasingly diverse and face many challenges, due to economic migration, deprivation, poverty, intergenerational differences, and, worryingly, the rise of hate crime and the threat of extremism. Community cohesion is therefore essential in helping to reduce potential problems and help resolve issues before they occur. As you are well aware, there's also a direct correlation between community cohesion and a person's view as to whether or not they can influence local decisions. Higher levels of community cohesion are reported by people who feel that they understand local politics, for example, where they have a good grasp of the work done by their local councillors, and where there is a close working relationship between elected officials and their community. The most recent data published by the national survey has revealed that only about 30 per cent of people in Wales feel that they’re able to influence decisions at a local level. We also know that there is an increased apathy towards voting in general, with voter turnout, on the whole, decreasing at nearly every election. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, and for the purposes of improving community cohesion, what current initiatives do you have to improve and encourage interest in local politics and the work of locally elected representatives? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for that interesting and profound question, Joel James. I’m not sure if you contributed yesterday to the statement made by Jayne Bryant, which was directly on this issue, in terms of ways in which we are seeking to improve local democracy and enhance public engagement in local democracy, and democracy as a whole. I recognise your key points about community cohesion, and that we want to seek to have a nation that looks to hope not hate; that’s our campaign in Wales. We had a targeted burst of Hate Hurts Wales earliers on this year, and you know that we had the hate crime statistics most recently, which were worrying in terms of the increase, for example, in religious hate crime in Wales.

I would say that there are many ways in which we’re seeking to address this from my portfolio. I’m very keen that we have got a real opportunity with the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 that went through—I can see the former Counsel General is joining us virtually; he took this through in July—where we’re going to have, as was said yesterday, the opportunity for more people to be registered, in terms of compulsory registration, to encourage more people to engage and to vote. I also think that we all have a responsibility as political parties, haven’t we, to encourage our young people, and particularly our 16 and 17-year-olds, to take advantage of the voting system.

I think one point I would make is that we have an opportunity, and I hope you will respond to the draft guidance that I have led as a result of that legislation—section 32—for political parties to develop diversity and inclusion strategies, and also take responsibility for delivering on the data and the numbers of diverse people we seek to bring into elected office, and also to consider a voluntary route to gender quotas. That’s just one part of my responsibility in terms of trying to ensure that this place can reflect Wales in running Wales.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Volunteering has been shown to be an aspect of social interaction that has proven positive benefits, both in terms of health and well-being. Moreover, there is what is called a virtuous cycle between volunteering and social cohesion, whereby contributing to the benefit of the community provides a sense of solidarity and a connection with other people and their area. Not only does it help people to get to know others in the community, but research has shown that it also helps increase a sense of trust, pride in the place you live, and a connection between people from different backgrounds, thus building an overall resilience within the community in the face of potential division and challenging times. Therefore, encouraging volunteering is of huge benefit to communities.

We know that there are challenges in recruiting and retaining volunteers, and this, I believe, comes from a misplaced sense that volunteering, whilst starting as a willingness to help and to be involved, often ends up becoming a burden, in particular an administrative one. Cabinet Secretary, what initiatives have you taken to promote the benefits of volunteering to communities, and what action do you think could be taken to reduce administrative burdens on volunteers? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr. A very important question, and also a key responsibility of mine to support the third sector, and the third sector infrastructure, which actually underpins all the initiatives to encourage volunteering in Wales. I am very pleased to have worked with the voluntary sector, and the third sector partnership council, in supporting our volunteers.

It was interesting during the pandemic how many people came forward to volunteer in many ways. People who were furloughed came forward to volunteer. But, following the pandemic and people were trying to return after very troubled times back into work and their communities and their families, and then the cost-of-living crisis, it became very difficult for volunteering. So, it is now a question of us supporting volunteers to come back into the important roles that they play in our organisations. So, actually, it very much links to your first question, because this is the lifeblood of Wales, isn't it, the civic engagement, community cohesion, and, I think, we all meet volunteers in our constituencies and in everything that we do. I think the volunteering that we see, which we can then support by making sure that the funding is available for the volunteering infrastructure, in the voluntary sector at local authority level, and are supported.

Now, there is something that, I think, during this week as White Ribbon Week and following on in the next 16 days of activism—. There are a lot of volunteers involved in tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and I do praise the work that they do. And I'd also like to praise all the work that's going on at the moment in terms of our communities supporting our warm hubs. And, just only recently, I visited a hub in Ely in Cardiff, where not only were the statutory services run, but there were volunteers who were working and getting experience. And, of course, that is a key benefit of volunteering, at all ages—getting experience—which can often help in terms of moving forward not just in their health and well-being, but into jobs and employment.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you know, there is a clear trend towards increased community cohesion and deprivation in an area. One of the reasons why this is the case is because people feel safer in their homes and safer travelling and walking around their area. Evidence shows that 72 per cent of people who live in the least deprived areas feel safe in all situations, compared with just 54 per cent of people who live in the most deprived areas. Sadly, one of the other reasons is that more deprived areas have more community tensions, which, as we have seen this year, can lead to anti-social behaviour in public spaces, hate crimes, intimidation, harassment and so forth, and this increases anxiety and fear within the community, especially between different generations. It also frequently leads to a breakdown in relationships with the police and local authorities, due to a distrust of those in positions of authority. In order to tackle this, research shows that communities that have lots of activities for younger people, places for them to go and have worthwhile experiences, and where they can have the support of community mentors, tend to have fewer instances of anti-social behaviour. With this in mind, what actions are the Welsh Government taking to improve the number and variety of activities for younger people in deprived communities? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for that question, Joel. I think that there are many of us in this Chamber who have supported over the years and in Government—and now, fortunately, are being able to recover it—our great youth service, the youth services that many of us probably also enjoyed ourselves as young people and, indeed, in our constituencies. But it's crucially important that we can rebuild those youth services in partnership with local authorities and the third sector in the most deprived areas, and that's something where I can see that the investment that we're making in our youth services with local authorities is crucially important. Now, on 28 November, just next week, we do have a Wales Safer Communities network with local Safer Communities partnerships. And, next week, they're going to be showcasing excellent partnership working, successes in community safety, which will include the ways in which they are working with young people, partnerships that show mentoring and peer support, taking forward public information campaigns, and working closely with communities as well. And can I thank our schools for taking a lead on this, and our community and family support services, which are making such a difference in terms of reaching out to young people in these communities?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Wiiliams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, both you and I and all those present held powerful testimony on Monday evening at the candlelit vigil held here at the Senedd to support the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women and the White Ribbon campaign. It's always heartbreaking to hear survivors bear witness to the impact of the terrible violence they have suffered at the hands of men. But we also heard about how survivors find light in that darkness, and we know that specialist support services are often the path to that light. Welsh Women's Aid's upcoming state of the sector report, which will be published on 10 December and of which I've received an advance copy as chair of the cross-party group on violence against women and children, highlights the ongoing issue of short-term funding in the VAWDASV sector in Wales, with most grants only lasting 12 months, and, of course, this adversely affects staff recruitment, retention and the ability to provide trauma-informed support. And the issue of the need for sustainably funded services is also highlighted, of course, in the national advisers' annual report, published this week. So, does the Cabinet Secretary acknowledge that we need to see sustainable long-term funding models to ensure services can plan effectively and provide uninterrupted support to survivors? And have you evaluated what implications the UK Government's decision to increase national insurance contributions has for these third sector organisations who support survivors in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for your very important question.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

It's really important that you have—. Thank you for asking this question this week, because it is so relevant to what we all shared on Monday and which we continue to share, not just through these 16 days of activism, but all year around, and in my responsibility as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice.

It is vital that we invest in these specialist services, investing in VAWDASV services, because it is key to our commitment in the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. So, we are working with our specialist sector providers to review funding arrangements for VAWDASV. I'm really admiring of our national advisers and the role that they play. Yasmin Khan has been chairing a sustainable funding work stream of our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence partnership strategy. I mean, it is complex, as you know—the range of funding streams that come through. PCCs have been funding many excellent schemes, including perpetrator schemes. We heard about those on Monday at the event that was chaired by Joyce Watson and the National Federation of Women's Institutes. We're looking at how we can have fair and effective and consistent funding for those specialist services in Wales. But, just looking at the capital programme, for example, it was £2.2 million last year. It's been maintained at that level for this year. Those capital projects are really important for those services, and we've given direct funding to a number of organisations, not just Welsh Women's Aid, but BAWSO, New Pathways, Safer Wales, Hafan Cymru, Western Bay, Calan DVS, Adferiad. We do fund across Wales.

Now, I'll just quickly say that I met with Alex Davies-Jones, who, of course, is the Ministry of Justice Parliamentary Under-Secretary, and we talked about the fact that—. Again, back to the jagged edge. Who is funding what? We need consistency between streams from the UK Government and the Welsh Government. And, of course, we are assessing with the third sector the impact of the national insurance increases, in terms of employers' responsibilities. I think it is important that we're working with the third sector across the board. We do have a very robust third sector, in terms of working with the third sector partnership council, which I chair. We're currently engaging—and this is across the board with the third sector—with our third sector partners, in line with the code of practice for funding the third sector, to assess their budgetary needs following the UK Government's autumn budget.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We're almost out of time on this set of ministerial questions and we're only on the second question of the second spokesperson. So, if I can ask for shorter ministerial answers, please. Questions can be as long as they're timed for. Maybe we do need to reflect on the timing of ministerial answers now. I know it's the favourite subject of the Deputy Presiding Officer, and he's about to come into the chair. So, keep to time, please, everybody, and maybe we'll need to time everybody in the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

But, Sioned now.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

The vigil helped us remember those women whose lives have been lost due to male violence. Yesterday, you asked us all to recommit ourselves to recognising that women should feel safe in public—safe to go out, safe to walk the street. Stalking often starts with minor obsessive behaviours, but can escalate to harassment and even deadly violence. It's one of the most significant predicators of femicide. According to the latest crime survey for England and Wales, one in five women have experienced stalking, and black women are also more likely to be stalked. But conviction rates are still alarmingly low, with only 1.7 per cent of cases resulting in a conviction. Campaigners such as the Suzy Lamplugh Trust say that we need to recognise stalking as a distinct and urgent threat, and this should have a distinct and proper response, a proactive approach that targets stalking directly, intervenes early and supports victims. So, has the Welsh Government explored the possibility of introducing a tackling stalking plan to complement the VAWDASV strategy? And what steps are you taking to ensure that public sector professionals, such as those in healthcare, receive independent specialist training on handling stalking cases? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr. Well, we are delivering our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence Act, and, of course, that includes all aspects of sexual violence and harassment. We have, therefore, got a work stream in our strategy on tackling violence in public places. And I'll certainly be taking forward options for a stalking strategy of that kind.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The majority of women in the criminal justice system are victims of violence, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Nearly 60 per cent of women who offend have experienced domestic abuse. The criminal justice system is failing Welsh women, as recently highlighted once again by the research of Dr Rob Jones, in his latest report. The Welsh Government's women's justice blueprint is meant to offer a fresh approach to female offending, but instead of seeing a decrease in the number of women in Wales, we're on track to witness an increase, according to Dr Jones's research. When the Wales Governance Centre requested information, for instance, on how many Welsh women in prison are pregnant or are mothers to children under 18, the Ministry of Justice refused to release that data, although we know that separation for women from their children is often cited as one of the most distressing aspects of imprisonment, with profound impacts on mental health. Dr Jones's report makes it clear that the situation for Welsh female prisoners isn't improving, and underlines the need for Wales-only data. So, how does the Welsh Government propose to identify and address the challenges that are seriously impacting the way that Welsh women are treated by the criminal justice system? And could you provide an update on the progress towards establishing the residential women's centre in Swansea?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Sioned Williams. I'm meeting Dr Rob Jones shortly, and not just Dr Rob Jones but also with HM Prison and Probation Service, to look at how we can ensure that we have proper access to disaggregated data. There is now clear willingness and agreement with the new UK Government to ensure that we overcome that, in terms of the situation where the work of the Wales Governance Centre really has highlighted the importance of that disaggregated data, and we need to bring that to the fore in terms of making that accessible, to make sure that the justice system is working in Wales. We, of course, have our women's justice blueprint, and also my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language recently went to a meeting, which was a meeting about justice and women's justice, where the women's residential centre was raised, I know, by my colleague. It was chaired by the Lord Chancellor, who is very keen on women's residential centres. We've got the only pilot in England and Wales, and I'm pressing forward for it. We've got the site; it now needs to be opened.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

3. How is the Cabinet Secretary promoting the Welsh Government’s £1.5 million warm hubs scheme? OQ61887

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch, Buffy Williams. Last month I was pleased to confirm funding of £1.5 million this year for safe and warm spaces in the community under the title Warm Hubs—Open to All. We will continue to work with local authorities to promote our collective efforts to help in our communities over the coming winter months.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

I'd like to declare an interest, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm still a trustee at Canolfan Pentre. I know the difference this warm-hub funding makes to the day-to-day running of the canolfan. It means we can continue to provide our well-established services as well as additional service sessions, but we can keep our doors open for longer and support more residents. I know that past warm-hub funding has supported community groups like Pontygwaith and the Waun Wen centres, the community interest companies like Manage Money Wales and Mothers Matter, and churches like Bethany Baptist in Ynyshir and Seion in Maerdy, in similar ways. But one of the biggest challenges previously was communication with residents. So, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure clear communication and accessibility to warm hubs this winter?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Buffy Williams, and can I pay tribute to your work? You are a trustee, and I’ve been to Canolfan Pentre and it does provide such a brilliant service to your local community. I have recently written to all Senedd Members and Members of Parliament to highlight the new funding for warm hubs. I mean, it’s interesting, just in terms of Rhondda Cynon Taf, that it’s going to receive this year £124,170 from the warm hubs programme that I have announced. But already, Rhondda Cynon Taf has also been providing funding itself over the past two years to local groups and organisations to run winter welcome centres, so that is now going to be supported by our new Welsh Government funding.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, the additional support you've provided for the warm hubs scheme will undoubtedly make a difference to communities, and particularly isolated ones this winter. I think we can all agree that any initiative that helps bring communities together is one worth investing in. How do you see the warm hubs scheme expanding in the long term? Considering that this initiative is probably most likely accessed by the elderly and vulnerable, do you see potential for warm hubs to link up with other basic health services, using it as an opportunity to do routine health checks, for example? If so, what needs to be put into place to make this happen? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Joel James. Many warm hubs have already been established, so I'll just mention one I've visited, in Ely, and Cardiff actually has hubs in every part of the community. They're very good for signposting to other services, and, of course, that includes health and well-being, but I think most importantly for all age groups who use warm hubs, particularly older people, it will be an opportunity to break down isolation, meet other people, have refreshments and be signposted to important advice services to, for example, get advice about taking up not just pension credit, but access to other benefits, such as the discretionary assistance fund and the council tax reduction scheme.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Welsh Government's funding for warm hubs this year is extremely welcome in Wrexham, where, once again, our libraries will be taking part in the initiative. They provide safe, comforting spaces, and, as you said, they're a place to meet people also. Despite highlighting the importance, just a few short weeks ago, when promoting warm hubs, Wrexham County Borough Council are now doing a consultation on the future of our libraries, stating it needs to save £185,000. Whilst of course I understand there are financial pressures, the impact that this relatively small amount of money makes is significant. I know the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that libraries play a crucial role in our communities—it's very important that Wrexham people respond to the consultation—but will she continue to work with the local authority to make them realise that libraries are not just there for library facilities, but that they also have additional benefits such as the warm hubs? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Lesley Griffiths. Well, the community hubs that I visited that are based in libraries—when you talk to the library staff, they say that, actually, the use of the library and the library resources, the children's libraries, has always increased as a result of being part of something wider. I would just say that Wrexham has got, in this round of funding, £64,470 towards warm hubs, which should enable it to look creatively at the ways in which it can build its community libraries. But also, I have to say, across Wales, there are a range of ways in which local authorities have managed to keep their community libraries going, both by running the services directly and through some asset transfers to community groups or community and town councils. But it's clear that people must respond, and I hope they will respond to this consultation, but it's clear the role of the community library is much more than just its traditional role and it can be vital in terms of cutting isolation and enabling people to access other services.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. How is the Welsh Government working with the UK Government to alleviate fuel poverty? OQ61872

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much. I had a very productive meeting with the Minister for energy consumers last month. The UK Government have important levers to help alleviate fuel poverty, and I welcome the opportunity to work with them on an open basis to share policies to better protect Welsh households.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I volunteer at a foodbank in the Swansea valley and one woman who regularly attends the foodbank had asked for help because she had seen her energy bills shoot up recently and was struggling to cope. She was eligible for support under the ECO4 scheme, which is funded by the UK Government, and she received solar panels, insulation work and had a new heating system. But now, even though she can prove that her bills have risen since the work undertaken as part of this scheme was completed, and needs to discuss what could be the cause of these increases, those who did the work are not available to help her. I'm hopeful that National Energy Action Cymru will be able to assist her, but my constituent’s plight raises the question, Cabinet Secretary, as to what discussions you are having with the UK Government to ensure that vulnerable people who have to plan every penny that they spend aren’t left in crisis, rather than in a better position in terms of their costs by fuel poverty prevention schemes. Are you confident that the Welsh Government’s plans offer a sufficient level of protection and advice after these energy efficiency measures are installed in people’s homes?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. I very much recognise the work that you do in the cross-party group on fuel poverty, and I'm sure these issues will be raised in due course. As I said, I met with the Minister for energy consumers last month—Miatta Fahnbulleh MP—and we talked about the ways in which the UK Government can, indeed, work with us as a Welsh Government to tackle fuel poverty. But I've been very concerned about the impact—and it's very clear—the adverse impact Ofgem's October price cap increase has had. Indeed, I will now go back to the Minister to raise this issue about the ECO4 scheme, not devolved to Wales, but you know, of course, and I've mentioned the Warm Homes scheme, the £30 million that is, of course, now being implemented this year.

I think it is important that I have also met with energy suppliers. The Bevan Foundation did a very good report recently that actually encouraged people to approach their energy suppliers, because they can help with energy bills, but also, consistently, and I've raised this with the Minister, I've been asking for a social tariff, which I think would help customers.

Can I finally say that I hope that colleagues here will have visited the Fuel Bank Foundation who were here yesterday in the Senedd, who are reaching out to thousands of people in Wales? You, in fact, can all be referral agents for the Fuel Bank Foundation. I announced a further £70,000 to support the work of the Fuel Bank Foundation. That's particularly going to help people with prepayment meters, but also people off grid.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Question 5 [OQ61890] has been withdrawn. So, question 6, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

6. What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to work with North Wales Police and parents to stop the cycle of anti-social behaviour and criminal damage caused by young adults in Aberconwy? OQ61870

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Janet Finch-Saunders. We're committed to working in partnership to reduce crime and anti-social behaviour in north Wales. While policing is currently a reserved matter, we work closely with policing colleagues and other criminal justice stakeholders to engage with communities and support the safety of people across Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Minister. As a previous cabinet member in Conwy County Borough Council for public protection and community safety, going back a few years now, we used to have measures whereby the Crown Prosecution Service and the youth justice people and police would be able to come together to stop prevailing anti-social behaviour. I have to say that, recently, I’ve become very concerned when residents are approaching me and talking about feral youths and some of the anti-social behaviour and community safety issues. We’ve just had some fabulous new shelters along the promenade in Llandudno, around about £25,000 each, and 17 windows have been smashed. We’ve had a fire recently started and fighting in Mostyn Street. This is not a good look for a nice town that wants to attract tourists.

Now, the big issue that I’ve had with matters such as this—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to ask, Janet, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

The CPS and the courts are unwilling to give out custodial sentences, or do anything, really, to keep these youngsters in check. When they’ve approached the parents, the parents would say, ‘Well, there’s nothing I can do. It’s not my responsibility.’ Well, I was just wondering, £160 million has been put into this budget, but how do you work with local authorities, the CPS and youth justice to ensure that, where you’ve got a gang culture starting up, it’s nipped in the bud immediately and that people are not living in fear of 11-year-olds, 13-year-olds and 15-year-olds who then have gangs supporting them? It’s just unacceptable in this day and age. Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch. I am aware that you recently met with North Wales Police, raising these issues of concern. I have to say that some of us really enjoyed our weekend in Llandudno—thank you very much—last weekend, and it seemed to be a very cohesive and friendly community. My understanding is that, of course, we have to address anti-social behaviour, but it is about actually reaching out, and we talked earlier on about the importance of the youth service diverting young people away from this kind of behaviour, enabling them to have access to services that meet their needs. And I understand that there’s been—. And from my youth justice blueprint, we know that we can keep young people out of the criminal justice system if we intervene appropriately. Schools have a role to play with this, and there have been quite a few grants that have been made available to local partner agencies, which have benefited young people. So, I think this is something where youth justice and youth work work closely together and community engagement as well.

I’ll just finally, quickly mention the fact that there is this Wales Safer Communities network; they are showcasing good examples of partnership working, which will include working with young people through youth justice, and it’s very much a partnership approach, and they will be announcing their awards next week. I will particularly look for ways in which we can learn about ensuring that we can divert young people away from anti-social behaviour and the criminal justice system.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about tackling violence against women and girls? OQ61898

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch, Julie Morgan. I have met the UK Minister for victims in the Ministry of Justice, Alex Davies-Jones, who is keen to engage and learn from our work in Wales, and the UK Minister for victims in the Home Office, Jess Phillips, who has demonstrated a long-standing commitment to tackle violence against women.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for that response.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

On Monday we will mark the United Nations's International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, or White Ribbon Day, and I was pleased to attend the event and vigil this week, hosted by Joyce Watson, and I will be holding my own vigil, as I do every year, in Cardiff North.

Almost every week, we hear another story of another woman who has been killed through violence or has been the victim of violence. Very sadly, earlier this year, one of my constituents was murdered and became one of the 71 women so far this year who have lost their lives to male violence in the UK. We seem to be in an epidemic, and it has to stop. The theme of this year's White Ribbon Day is 'it starts with men'. Men have to become our allies and call out this awful behaviour. What more does the Welsh Government plan to do to stop violence against women and girls in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan. Thank you, again, for reminding us of the 71 women who've lost their lives—those victims who've lost their lives to male violence. It does have to start with men. Can I say how impressive it was to have the men from across the Chamber speaking at the vigil—cross-party contributions—and the White Ribbon ambassadors? Yesterday, I met with, virtually, 140 civil servants who were White Ribbon ambassadors. The Welsh Government is the only Government in the UK that's actually accredited for White Ribbon ambassadors.

But, just very quickly, I think we have to look at the ways in which we are trying to tackle that culture of violence against women. We've got to address misogyny and sexual harassment. We've got a very effective ‘Sound’ campaign, which is about how we can focus on behaviours and harms around public sexual harassment. It is about men engaging with each other, and it is making a difference to how they see women and their relationships with women. But also, of course, it has to go back to education and our new, pioneering curriculum, which we know is, starting at the age of three, to enable children to learn about healthy and respectful relationships.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

8. How is the Welsh Government supporting pensioners in South Wales East? OQ61904

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

There are a broad range of funding streams and initiatives in place across the Welsh Government to support pensioners in South Wales East. Examples include investment in the regional integration fund, funding for warm hubs, and action to increase pension credit take-up, end abuse and create age-friendly communities.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, Labour’s disgusting decision to scrap winter fuel payments will hit some 540,000 pensioners across Wales, including nearly 100,000 in my region of South Wales East alone. This Welsh Labour Government has yet again let the people of Wales down, and in particular our pensioners, by not doing the morally right thing just by speaking out against this cruel attack.

Last week, the First Minister proudly boasted that the Government had invested £1.5 million in warm hubs across the country to keep residents warm this winter. It’s a damning indictment of Labour that these sorts of centres are even being established in 2024. The First Minister refused to be drawn on whether she was proud of her Government’s decision to withdraw winter fuel payments—a move that will lead to 4,000 premature deaths here in the UK. But, as far as I’m concerned, her lack of words showed that, deep down, she knows that this policy was a very grave mistake. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you stand up for Wales, in the absence of any of your colleagues doing so, and admit that this cut was a grave mistake, and fight tooth and nail to get it reinstated for the benefit of each and every resident who needs it here in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I have answered many questions this afternoon, and I've put the record straight in terms of the ways in which we are addressing this with the levers that we have got, supporting older people in many different ways through our initiatives. But I have to say: why are we in this position? Why are we in this position? We are in this position because of the £22 billion black hole that your Government left. Therefore, we have to find ways in which—. The UK Government, of course—it's their policy. We have to find ways in which we can not only rebuild our economy but, most importantly, rebuild our public services, which are so important to older people.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And, finally, question 9. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

9. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the UK Government regarding the devolution of youth justice and the probation service? OQ61871

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Mick Antoniw. Along with my colleagues, I've had a range of conversations with the UK Government, including on their manifesto commitments to explore the devolution of youth justice and probation.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer. Of course, our justice system is at a precipice after 14 years of disastrous Tory Government policy. Cabinet Secretary, considerable work has been done by Welsh Government in preparation for the devolution of youth justice and probation. The overwhelming elements to make those areas successful are devolved functions. The UK Government has agreed to explore the devolution of these areas. Bearing in mind the amount of work that's been done, do you agree with me now that the time for further exploration has now been completed, and we need to get on with the implementation of the devolution of youth justice and probation in order to deliver better justice for those impacted by those services?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you for this question, and, of course, I thank you for the work that we started together, when you were Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, on this matter. Can I thank all those who've engaged with us in this journey already, and the progress we've made to make the case—actually, not just make the case, but prepare—for the devolution of youth justice and probation? I think that's where we thought we would be now, and we're very glad that it was in the UK Government manifesto. So, I'll be working closely with the Deputy First Minister and Counsel General as we take forward discussions with the UK Government on their manifesto commitment to devolve youth justice and probation.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Questions now to the Senedd Commission. The first question will come from Gareth Davies and be answered by Hefin David.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

1. How much is Senedd reform costing the Commission? OQ61879

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

The Commission's budget provision for Senedd reform costs for 2023-24 were £571,000. In the current year, 2024-25, the budget is £2.1 million. And the Commission's draft budget for the next financial year, 2025-26, includes a £6.5 million provision for Senedd reform, but that is, of course, subject to a vote of this Chamber later this afternoon. These Senedd reform costs include provision for new staff to prepare for the seventh Senedd, increases to non-staff budgets and funding for reconfiguring the Chamber, and additional Members' officers in Tŷ Hywel. There will, of course, be further cost pressures for future years, but these remain estimates and projections that have yet to be refined in detail and incorporated into an annual budget, which again will be subject to the scrutiny of the Finance Committee and to be decided by this Senedd as a whole.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for that very comprehensive response, Commissioner. The 2025-26 Senedd Commission budget represents a total increase on the 2024-25 budget of close to 17 per cent, but the budget does not take into consideration the additional funding required to staff the offices of an additional 36 Members. Unlike Labour, Plaid Cymru and Reform UK, the Welsh Conservatives are opposed to Senedd expansion, one reason being the £120 million price tag for an enlarged devolved Parliament at a time when both Welsh and UK Labour Governments are making spending cuts and raising taxes. So, it’s of concern to me that a more detailed costing of Senedd reform hasn’t been published that takes into consideration the staffing costs of new Members.

The cost of the Senedd reform was also revised, increasing by £1.2 million on the previous projections, which adds to our concern that the true cost would be far higher still. The budget has also neglected to make targets for potential savings that have been identified in previous budgets. So, could the Commission outline what the true cost of Senedd reform will be, taking everything into account, and whether the Commission has been diligent in identifying potential ways to minimise the financial hit of Senedd reform to the public purse? Thank you.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Well, there were quite a few questions in there; I’ll pick out the ones that are relevant to the Commission. First of all, I think it’s important to note that the actual decision on Senedd reform was a decision for the Senedd as a whole, and it was passed by a two-thirds majority, and I think any gripes about that whole thing need to be directed at Ministers, who are there are decide, rather than Commissioners, who are merely here to serve.

The other thing I would say—[Interruption.] The other thing I would say is that he mentions a £1.2 million increase on the projected costs. Actually, that was a £1.2 million increase in capital costs, but staffing costs have actually fallen, so it only comes out at a £400,000 increase on previous costs. And, in fact, if the budget that is before the Senedd is passed later today, and we agree that staffing costs match Welsh Government staffing costs, then, actually, you could argue that the adjusted pay awards would lead to a reduction in the costs on Senedd reform from the regulatory impact assessment previously. So, we’re actually seeing costs, given the principles that we may agree later, actually falling. It’s an argument I’ve been reluctant to deploy, because I think it depends on the Senedd debating and passing the budget.

But, reflecting on a £120 million cost, I don't know where that comes from, because the Senedd Commission can only pass a budget on an annual basis. We don't carry reserves. We can only pass a budget, and we only produce a budget, on an annual basis, with a projection for the following two years. But that is very much subject to the agreement of the Senedd, and it can be stopped at any time with a vote of the Senedd, which will take place this afternoon. So, I think it would be very foolhardy to try and project costs into the future beyond the next two years. And we will reach a steady state in the seventh Senedd, but, of course, one Parliament can't bind the next one, therefore those will be issues for the seventh Senedd.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The second question will be answered by Joyce Watson and will be asked by Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

2. How is the Commission working to improve the accessibility of Senedd proceedings for deaf and hearing-impaired people? OQ61897

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank you for the question, Julie. First Minister's questions are interpreted into British Sign Language each week on Tuesday afternoons, shortly after the item, and uploaded on Tuesday evening. Live interpretation is provided for the proceedings in both Plenary and committees in response to the content of those proceedings or when they are requested. Recent examples in Plenary include a Member debate by Mark Isherwood and a Health and Social Care Committee debate on mental health inequalities. Subtitling of proceedings is not possible at the moment with our existing broadcasting infrastructure. However, Commission officials have already started the process of changing this, using the latest AI software. The Commission's intention is to start using technology that will allow subtitling for the relocated Plenary sessions in Siambr Hywel from May 2025.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for that response.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I know, Joyce, that you're aware that I've raised these difficulties in the Chamber before and I have been contacted since that time by a number of deaf and hearing-impaired people, both constituents and from across Wales, to say how excluded they still feel from Senedd proceedings due to no subtitles being made available for all proceedings, and I'm glad to hear what you've said today about what you're going to try to do about that. But one constituent has noted that subtitles aren't even available on the recordings of the proceedings, and that leaves him wading through hours of texts in order to find the debate or statement that they're looking for.

I'm also disappointed the Senedd doesn't have the regular use of an interpreter. I also recently learned that it's the responsibility of the Senedd Member to try and source an interpreter if they are meeting with a deaf constituent, and that the Commission play no role in helping with this. So, I do feel that there are things that can be done, and I'm pleased to hear what is being done, but I think we've just got to make a much bigger effort to ensure that proceedings are available. I know some proceedings may be accessible and available, but it needs to be all proceedings, so that somebody doesn't have to prepare and request before they do something. So, I wondered if you've been able to look at any international ways of making proceedings accessible to deaf and hearing-impaired people. I know that the Scottish Parliament has done an awful lot in this area and I wondered if you could look at that.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Again, I know that you care, and others care, passionately about this, and I know that we are committed to delivering an equal experience to all people. I also know that myself and the Llywydd are happy to meet with you to discuss further some of the issues that have been highlighted today.

But there is a multi-year project to install brand-new broadcasting systems and infrastructure under way, and we hope that it will be complete within two years, but in incremental stages. It will deliver significant accessibility improvements, and that is the main driver for that work. As part of that project we are proposing to buy and install equipment with built-in features allowing data to be ingested, converted and displayed as subtitles, and the Commission's intention, funding permitting, is to start using the new broadcasting infrastructure for the relocated Plenary sessions in 2025, and then, subsequently, introducing it across committee rooms and in the new Siambr.

We will thoroughly test subtitling and captioning capabilities on the new broadcast system once they've been installed and commissioned, and hope to report on progress at the start of the summer recess in 2025. And as part of that testing, we'll investigate the use of automated AI-generated voice-to-text tools and how they can be integrated into the system.

We are also proposing to run a project during 2025 to replace the current Senedd.tv service. As part of the requirements for the new service, we will be seeking accessibility improvements, including an advanced video player that can display subtitles and captions. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The third question will be answered by the Llywydd. Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. What procedures are in place for deciding when the Senedd is to be lit up in support of various causes? OQ61877

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

There is an internal protocol in place to decide on illumination. There are two categories to the protocol. The first is to illuminate the building on five annual days that are usually marked by wider Senedd Commission activity. Those five days are: Holocaust Memorial Day, St David's Day, International Women's Day, International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia, and International Day of Persons with Disabilities. The Senedd is also plunged into darkness each year to mark Earth Hour.

The second category in the protocol is for one-off events of national significance. These would be occasions that are either unexpected or do not happen every year, when a significant event is being celebrated or commemorated.

My office receives a large number of requests to illuminate the Senedd in support of charities, campaigns and good causes. Unfortunately, it is impractical to accommodate all such requests. For example, we have received 12 requests since September. Every day, every week marks some good cause, occasionally more than one.

As Llywydd, the protocol that I have mentioned and that I implement on illumination is only known internally at the moment within my office. I think I need to make that protocol public and I will be doing so as a result of this question, so thank you for asking it.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. And I'm grateful that, earlier this year, you allowed bowel cancer awareness posters to be placed in the Senedd, and I know how valued and appreciated this action was. However, I was disappointed that we were not able to get the Senedd lit up to recognise Ostomy Awareness Day, which falls on the first Saturday of every October.

From the discussions I had with your office and from your response today, I've understood that the reason as to why the Senedd could not be lit up was because of concerns that if it was done for one awareness day, then it sets a precedent to do it for all awareness days, which would not be possible, and I understand that argument. However, I do still think that it is disappointing that we are missing a great opportunity to engage with charities and organisations, to engage with the work that they do, and ultimately raise awareness of their causes.

You mentioned there that you were looking to publish your internal procedure, and I welcome that really wholeheartedly actually, but I was wondering if there's scope to expand that procedure to link up with these charities and organisations, because it would be good then to show that the Senedd fully supports the work that they do. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for the supplementary, and I appreciate your understanding of the issues that you've faced and that other Members have faced in making a request for the lighting of the Senedd in support of a good cause and then not seeing that that met with the current protocol.

Just to give you a flavour of some of the additional requests that have been used for lighting over the last five or six years and more, they have included: the Welsh football team in the Euros; the homecoming for Geraint Thomas as winner of the Tour de France; clap for carers during the COVID-19 lockdown; the centenary of the Urdd. There aren't many that have had that request approved. And as I said, the situation that faces us is that we do sometimes get multiple and frequent requests for various days or weeks in order to highlight charitable causes and good causes. I mentioned the 12 that we've received since the end of September—yours was one, of course, on the Ostomy Awareness Day. Organ Donation Week, leukodystrophy awareness, baby loss awareness, and others, have all come in as requests from Members.

I think now, as a next step, following your question—which, as I've said, I really welcome, in order to provide us with an opportunity to reflect on this—once I've published the protocol onto the Senedd intranet, then I think it may be useful for any Member to come up with any ideas that you may have, to reflect on whether the protocol meets your wish for how the Senedd estate is used to highlight good work in Wales, but, of course, understanding the multitude of applications that could inundate the Senedd and its inability to be multicoloured every single day of the week. So, getting the balance right is important. You've challenged that balance, and I think that's important to do, and we'll find a way that reflects the majority view of the Senedd in how we proceed. Felly, diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Question 4 [OQ61906] has been withdrawn, and also question 5 [OQ61892] has been withdrawn. Therefore, I thank the Commissioners.

4. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 today is the topical questions. The first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on why the Welsh Government is stepping out of the four-nation approach to the deposit-return scheme? TQ1248

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Janet. Wales is second in the world for recycling, meaning our recycling performance is already comparable to international deposit-return schemes. As our local authorities already deliver recycling at the level that a narrow recycling-only DRS would provide, it's vital that the scheme in Wales matches our high ambitions, including for reuse.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Oh, sorry, I was expecting a longer answer—sorry. [Laughter.] On that note, though, I have to say, and credit where credit is due, Conwy County Borough Council—and it goes back to the time when Sam Rowlands, my colleague to my left, was leader as well—we've got fantastic recycling rates in Conwy, and Wales itself is playing its part in recycling, and we've got to acknowledge that. However, if you do a beach clean, and work with organisations like the Marine Conservation Society, there's still a lot more to be done. There are still lots of bottles and things found on beaches when doing a beach clean. These then are ingested by many of our sea mammals, and we must never forget that we have a nature recovery crisis here.

So, for me, I brought to the Senedd—I think it was about three years ago; four years ago—a legislative proposal for a DRS and a waste reduction Bill. It secured cross-party support. Now, I've said before that it's all well and good bringing these forward, having them supported, but, then, putting that into policy. But the DRS was something that lots of people were looking forward to. I understand the issues around glass, but I don't agree with them. But to have stopped this in its tracks completely, I think you are—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

You've lost your bottle.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, you've lost your—. Do you know what—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You're asking a question on a topical topic. Please focus it to the Cabinet Secretary and not your colleagues, and ask the question, please.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Sorry, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

No, you're all right. So, thanks to your actions now, as UKHospitality Cymru have stated, DRS now looks further away than ever. It is truly a symptom of the need to reform this Welsh Parliament, that it will have taken over a decade of debate to introduce a DRS for Wales.

So, Minister, what is your target date for the Wales-only scheme to come into force? Two, you have publicly blamed the previous UK Government and the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020—you used that as an excuse—yet you do not agree that your party, which is now the UK Government, could change the Act. Another question: I once supported the inclusion of glass, but have listened—. The First Minister says she listens, but I listened, and I agree with the way forward being pursued in the other three nations. So, what assessment have you made—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

You've lost your bottle.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, let the question be asked—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

You tell him.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Apologies.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Let the question be asked and I'm sure the Member is coming to the last question in her questions.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I'm astonished. My gast is flabbered.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

What assessment have you made of the impact this is going to have now, not having a deposit-return scheme? What assessment have you made, before pulling out, of the cost of your decision to go it alone to the Welsh Government, and, more importantly, to our businesses in Wales? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Janet, and I apologise, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m utterly flabbergasted to see that the Conservatives have once again u-turned on a strongly held position of principle, and those principles, if they’re not saleable on one day, 'We'll find another set of principles so we can go forward.' I really, actually, commend that individual who brought forward that Bill, who said,

'There has been increased interest in whether glass bottles should be included in a DRS. I am pleased to agree...that glass should be part of the scheme in Wales.

'Recycling glass bottles lowers the risk of injury to people and wildlife as well as reducing our environmental impact. In fact, by including glass...there will be a reduction in CO2eq emissions of more than 50,000 tonnes each year—or nearly 1.3 million tonnes over 25 years!'

This will help, said that person,

'tackle the plague of glass bottles littering communities because its inclusion of glass will see the recycling of an additional 53,000 tonnes of containers. It would be fantastic to see'

this happening in Wales too.

How much I agree with that, Janet, because those were your words introducing your Bill. Now, I notice that you’ve done a u-turn and you’ve lost the bottle; the Conservative front bench seems to have lost the bottle as well. We have been consistent on this. We were actually consistent, Dirprwy Lywydd, when the four-nations approach to consultation went out three years ago, when all four nations were agreed that an all-in glass, plastics, aluminium, and others, reuse, not just recycling scheme, should be the way forward, for decarbonisation, as well as tackling litter, and as well as tackling the scourge that we have of our marine litter and so on. So, I simply ask for consistency here.

You ask me what the negative consequences would be. Well, let me tell you. The negative consequences if we were to proceed on a four-nations approach would be: first of all, we run right against the clear outcome of that consultation, where 86 per cent of the public were in favour of an all-in scheme, including glass. Not only that, we would risk a drop in recycling within Wales, because we are already achieving the level of recycling at a level that would be delivered now. And, fair play, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland want to lift their recycling rates, and we applaud them in doing that. We are already achieving it.

If we have to tread water, Janet, for the next five, six, seven years, we will drop back in recycling, not go forward. A narrow recycling-only approach has already faced challenge, Janet, from our local authorities around the justification and the impact of their approach—which has not been achieved without some pain, some real effort—to recycling performance. A scheme without glass would mean that significant additional cost and disruption would be required to retrofit the infrastructure needed to accommodate glass in the future. And make no mistake, Dirprwy Lywydd, we will need to have glass and aluminium and plastic reuse in schemes in the future, and that will add cost if we have to retrofit the machinery to do it. And also, there would be no clear pathway whatsoever for the glass sector to decarbonise in line with net zero, or for producers to be able to deliver their own individual decarbonisation targets.

So, this is trying to help and work with the supply chain to get there, and we simply ask for consistency from Members who have seen the evidence before, and have said they support this, and to stand by what they’ve said before.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Cabinet Secretary and Deputy First Minister, this is something that we’ve discussed many times in this Siambr, and it’s something that we know there’s significant support for in the community, for a DRS scheme.

But you acknowledge that we come at this from a different starting point, given where we are with our success at kerbside recycling here in Wales, and the behaviour and culture change that have come with it. I know when we first looked at a DRS in Wales, an on-the-go option was one of the ones that it was decided not to proceed with, in part because of taking that four-nations approach. Now that we are going our own way, could that be reconsidered as a way to both better complement our kerbside collections, but also reduce litter and encourage recycling and reuse? I think, Cabinet Secretary, whatever we decide to do in Wales, we need a system that supports and enables where we are, and that works for Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Absolutely. Hannah, thank you so much for that. In answer to your question, and to pick up the point, Janet, sorry, I forgot to mention to you in terms of timing, we have the time now, actually, not to delay inordinately, but to work with supply chains, with local authorities and others, as we have always done. We are in a very good position here in Wales to do that work and to get it right, and to look at the different ways we should take this forward. Just to remind people, it is within our competences to take this forward. And I do note, Dirprwy Lywydd, the UK Government also put out a statement, because they are, to their credit, proceeding with a recycling-focused DRS. They actually say:

'With Wales already ranked second in the world for recycling, they are in a unique position of implementing a scheme into an already high recycling nation. For this reason, they prefer to continue to work on a scheme that is right for their context. We will continue to work in partnership with the Welsh Government, as they make decisions regarding a Deposit Return Scheme in Wales.'

But you are right, Hannah. We need to work with all our partners on this, and I've engaged intensely over recent months with all of those partners, including on the supply chain, to get this right, but we have time. The next step for the development of the scheme in Wales will be a reuse scheme at scale in Newport, building on the work we've previously done in Brecon and elsewhere, on which we're already working in partnership with industry. We will then bring forward proposals for this scheme, informed by that trial, for a consultation before the end of this Senedd term, and then our aim is to bring forward the legislation to implement the scheme in Wales as early as possible in the next Senedd term. So, we'll do the work now, and we'll bring it forward. There won't be any great delay or whatever and we'll work with all partners to bring it forward. But it must be something that works for the context and the high ambition of us here in Wales. We've led before, we're going to lead again.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for setting out that timeline there. I think it is fair to say that there has been a bit of a mixed reaction and some confusion around the DRS in Wales. The problem, I think, was the fact that it was torpedoed by the previous Government, when they announced that they weren't including glass in their scheme. I have my reservations on the inclusion of glass; I have been consistent on that point. And there is, very clearly, some anxiety amongst businesses on how the inclusion of glass will actually affect not just the financial position of those businesses, but also the logistical position of those businesses as well, the additional costs that will be there. You will, of course, be aware of Bang-On Brewery on Bridgend industrial estate, who have been very vocal in their concerns. So, what I'm really keen to understand here is how the Cabinet Secretary will address those issues and concerns that are raised by small businesses in Wales regarding the potential inclusion of glass in a deposit-return scheme, and then what steps will be taken to ensure that any scheme introduced is both fair and practical for those businesses.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Luke, thank you for that. That's a really good point. One of the things that has characterised our approach over recent months and, indeed, years, where we've held a consistent position, is our close engagement with the supply chain. And even though, yes, we will have had some of the supply chain say, 'Well, what does this mean for us?'—microbreweries, smaller corner shops, when you have DRS equipment and so on—there are ways through. That's the reassurance I can give to Bang-On Brewery, who, by the way, I hope to visit very soon as well, and I'm happy to talk through the details with them and others.

Because if we look at the 53 nations and rising who have implemented a DRS with reuse, some of which operate within countries where there is slight divergence even within countries and the same big corporate suppliers who operate within those countries very successfully, it doesn't fragment the market or disrupt the market, you can find ways to do it. But we will make sure that we do not disrupt those smaller businesses, those smaller retailers, the smaller brewers; we'll work with them on this. So, I'm looking forward to meeting with Bridgend breweries and also others in order to discuss this, because we actually need their help now in devising this scheme in the right way.

We're not doing this in a gung-ho way, believe you me, and we're not coming to this with a blank sheet. We have spent years not just being consistent on the best way forward, but working with people, looking at international examples, to say, 'What's the way we avoid unintended consequences?' and minimise the impact on our wonderful—I have to say—microbreweries, small-scale breweries and our food and drink sector. So, we will do that. You have my commitment that we will do that, and we have some time to do it, but we're not going to delay inordinately; we want to bring this in as early as possible within the next Parliament. So, actually, it's not far off in parallel with the England, Northern Ireland and Scotland schemes, but ours will be focused on reuse as well as recycling.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The second topical question will be posed by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board's announcement to delay the provision of vascular operations at Glan Clwyd Hospital, which will lead to patients having to receive treatments in England? TQ1253

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

On 15 November, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board made a statement on its decision to delay planned and urgent surgery for open abdominal aortic aneurysm in north Wales. It has worked with Royal Stoke University Hospital to put plans in place for the small number of people who will need this treatment.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The news of the cuts to operations for open abdominal aortic aneurysm came as another blow to a region that has seen real deficiencies in vascular services over recent years. I don't need to say that moving services over the border to Stoke is going to be inconvenient. It'll be inconvenient for those living in the north-east, but for anyone living in my constituency on Anglesey, or further west on the Llŷn peninsula, for example, this decision will have a very real impact on the accessibility of this key surgery.

But what creates the greatest frustration here, I think, is the recent history and the way that Betsi Cadwaladr has treated vascular services, and the fact that local campaigners, and ourselves on these benches, had warned time and time again about the risk in terms of what was done, and that it would lead to a very real long-term decline in vascular services that were excellent. The justification that we received for the closure of the world-famous vascular unit in Ysbyty Gwynedd, and to centralise services at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, was that it would lead to better outcomes for patients in north Wales. None of us believed that. Six years later, not only have vascular services within Betsi Cadwaladr been placed in special measures, they are now sent to England without any talk of reintroducing the service in the foreseeable future. So, services that were excellent have been in decline, and it's the people of north Wales who are paying the price for that.

The progress report into vascular services in north Wales over recent years was encouraging—I am looking for the positives here. But what we see here and what we feared is a great retrograde step. So, can the Cabinet Secretary inform me what the timetable is in terms of returning these services to north Wales? And most importantly, when will the pledges made back in 2018 about the benefits of centralising vascular services at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd bear fruit? Because very few of us believed that the service would improve at that time as a result of that decision.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I hope it's helpful if I provide some context to the decision that has been taken. The decision to suspend both planned and emergency open AAA surgery clearly highlights that further work is needed to improve the vascular service for residents in north Wales. The decision was taken, as Members would expect, on the basis of clinical advice from vascular experts in Wales and the wider UK, as well as clinicians within the health board itself. The kind of surgery that is affected by the decision is very specialist; it's complex and it is important. It represents less than 0.5 per cent each year of vascular services generally. As I said in my initial answer, arrangements have been made with the Royal Stoke University Hospital, which builds on an existing relationship with that hospital, both in relation to trauma and to vascular services. The decision may impact people in the order of about 10 to 15 annually who need this particular kind of intervention.

The fact that patients are being treated in England for something of this level of speciality is not new. It does, of course, happen for some AAA procedures already, as well as, as I said, for some trauma and neurological conditions. The board has developed and agreed a protocol for the safe management of patients, which will clarify the new pathway for clinical teams, and it is in discussion with each of those individuals who it expects will be affected by this decision. I had the opportunity to meet the health board chair, Dyfed Edwards, on Sunday, in the course of another meeting, to discuss this with him, and that was followed up later this week in my regular discussion with him as chair of the board. He's committed on behalf of the board to keep the public and key stakeholders informed of developments as they review the provision now, but as yet there is no date for when those services may restart.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for tabling this topical question here today, and also thank the Cabinet Secretary for his initial response to Rhun ap Iorwerth, but also support the Member in his broader concerns around vascular services in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? The Member has already laid out those concerns that we receive as Members of the Senedd from our constituents that we represent, and he's absolutely right to share them again here today. I also support the Member in some of the challenges that some of our constituents are likely to face in terms of access and travel with this particular procedure.

I also want to acknowledge, Cabinet Secretary, the clinical advice that the board has received on this specialist treatment and recognise that where it is clinically right to do so, working with health boards and health trusts in England can be at times the right thing to do. You'll recognise the number of times I've raised that point in this Chamber, that cross-border working is at times the right thing to do, because we do need to look at ways to tackle waiting lists here in Wales, and cross-border working is part of the important strategy to do that, in my opinion, especially when the treatment can be done either more safely or more quickly in other parts of the NHS across the United Kingdom. So, I want to acknowledge the clinical advice on this specific treatment and recognise also, as you've outlined, that whilst it's important to that particular group of people, it is a limited number of people that this will directly affect every year.

My concern is perhaps how this type of decision making forms part of a broader strategy and plan for working across the border, and whether decisions like this are perhaps knee-jerk at times and not necessarily part of the broader plan and thinking of a health board. I'm also interested to hear, if these numbers do increase—they're fairly limited numbers at the moment—whether you would expect the health board to bring this procedure back in-house, as it were, in north Wales, and how that's going to be monitored to ensure that, actually, if things do change in the future, perhaps the clinical advice is reconsidered to be either safer or more appropriate back in Betsi Cadwaladr health board, even when the numbers may shift. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I can assure the Member that the reason it has been possible, as I understand it, for the health board to be able to develop the arrangements with the Royal Stoke hospital is because, as I indicated earlier, they have an existing relationship with the hospital in relation to AAA specifically, but also vascular more broadly and trauma as well. So, in the sense that the Member puts his question, it is part of that broader plan, if you like, already. He acknowledges the point that I know it is his view that, for the right reasons, for the right situation, it can be appropriate for people to travel in both directions across the border to get the treatment they need when the treatment, perhaps, is a particular level of specialism.

In relation to developments in the future and the number affected, I should just say that the AAA screening arrangements that exist to identify those who may have the condition—because very often it's non-symptomatic until the point at which it becomes particularly problematic—are unaffected by the decision that the health board has taken, because it's a nationally commissioned service through Public Health Wales. So, it would be possible to identify those who are at risk of AAA through that existing service, which is continuing.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you'll understand that vascular services in north Wales being in the news again creates concern for my constituents. We've already heard in here that it's hit the headlines before, but since then Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board’s vascular services, generally, were de-escalated in 2023 by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales after progress was shown, albeit they recognised improvements still needed to be made. So, Cabinet Secretary, given the latest news, how do you consider that BCUHB are acting on the recommendations of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales in their de-escalation review? And what further assurances can be sought from the health board on vascular services so that my constituents and others can be reassured?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I do recognise the point that the Member makes. In the context of vascular services at the health board, her constituents and others will be concerned to hear this news. I hope it's been helpful for me to be as specific as I have been about the services that are affected, because I want to reassure people about the particular effect of this particular decision, and to give a sense of the context around that, which I hope Members have found helpful.

She makes an important point about the fact that, because of challenges in the vascular services at Betsi Cadwaladr, there have been a number of reviews of those services, which other Members have touched on as well. So, the Royal College of Surgeons review, the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales review as part of its escalation and de-escalation mechanism, in addition, then, to the separate assurance review that the Welsh Government undertook, and then a case notes review as well. So, it is a set of services that has been under consistent oversight since the changes were first introduced. A number of recommendations were made in the course of the decision by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to de-escalate the service last year, and those are being taken forward by the health board. There have been improvements overall in the broad service since the previous Royal College of Surgeons review in particular, with clear evidence of clinicians working more collaboratively, and more of a role for multidisciplinary teams, but there is additional work that needs to be undertaken, of course, and the board is working its way through those recommendations on an ongoing basis.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'd like to focus on Glan Clwyd Hospital, if I may, and as we embark on the fifth anniversary of the COVID-19 outbreak, and in response to significant increases in casework matters in my constituency, I've submitted a freedom of information request asking Betsi Cadwaladr on the number of operational procedures and surgical procedures in that particular hospital. And what we've seen is nearly a 4,000 drop in surgical operations in Glan Clwyd Hospital, from 26,256 in 2019. There was a slight dip during the COVID years, for obvious reasons, but in 2023 that had dropped to 22,620, which is a decrease, as I say, of nearly 4,000 surgical procedures happening in that hospital per year. Given in mind the chronic wait—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I remind you this question is on vascular services, not the whole range of surgical operations?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Yes, I'm aware of that. So, given that in mind, will the Cabinet Secretary outline his response to that and what remedial work the Welsh Government will undertake to solve some of these problems that are very acute in the local hospital in my constituency? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Dirprwy Lywydd, as the Member's question is not in fact in relation to AAA surgery at Glan Clwyd, I'm afraid I don't have the answer to his question in front of me. But if you'd like to write me, I'm sure I can provide the information that's available.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, people are concerned in north Wales. They're concerned about the fragility of a number of services, and this, I'm afraid, is just the latest issue that is flagging up in the media with our constituents, and is, understandably, going to cause some angst and alarm.

The reality is that whilst it might affect only a small number of people, the impact or the potential safety implications for those individuals are very, very significant indeed, given the long distances, particularly for urgent cases that are not planned, which need this sort of surgery. So, can I ask what has the Welsh Government done, in conjunction with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, to assess the likely impact on mortality for those urgent cases of the many extra miles that people will now be required to travel in order to access these vital services?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think the Member is correct to say that each individual affected will—you know, it's a serious issue for that individual. I wasn't seeking to minimise that, I just wanted to create come context to give his constituents the reassurance of the sorts of services that are affected and the numbers that are likely to be affected, so I hope my comments were taken in that spirit.

Obviously, we've been in regular contact with the board as part of the special measures process in any event, and in the days leading up to the decision by the board in particular around this issue. I think the existing arrangements with the Royal Stoke hospital in relation to trauma in particular provides some experience to the board to inform its decision to take this—. In relation to any individual patient, I'm not a clinician—I'm not able to give that direct assurance—but I would anticipate that it depends very much on the individual circumstances of that individual patient, and I imagine in many cases the geography will be one consideration but perhaps not always the main factor. But these considerations have been part of the board's thinking in reaching the decision it has taken, based on the experience of the service it feels able to safely provide.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

5. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

There are no 90-second statements today.

Motions to elect Members to committees

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

So, we'll move on to the motions to elect Members to committees. In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the three motions to elect Members to committee, NNDM8741, NNDM8742 and NNDM8743, will be grouped for debate and for voting. I see that there are no objections, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I move.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motions NNDM8741, NNDM8742 and NNDM8743. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motions are agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to appoint an acting Standards Comissioner

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Next we have the motion to appoint an acting standards commissioner. I call on the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee to move the motion—Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion to appoint an acting standards commissioner.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

The commissioner for standards has notified the committee that he needs to recuse himself from consideration of a complaint. This means that an acting commissioner must be appointed in his place, and the committee has agreed to recommend the appointment of Melissa McCullough. Melissa has been the Northern Ireland Assembly commissioner for standards since 2020, as well as the pan-Ireland commissioner for standards since 2023. Because of these roles, the committee is confident that she has the necessary skills to undertake this role in a timely and efficient way. I commend this motion to the Senedd today. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: A Bill on the right to adequate housing

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal, has been postponed.

7. Motion to approve the Senedd Commission Budget for 2025-26

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

So, that takes us to item 7, a motion to approve the Senedd Commission budget for 2025-26. I call on Hefin David to move the motion.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I move the Commission's budget motion for 2025-26 and ask that it be incorporated into the annual budget motion. Dirprwy Lywydd, this year the Senedd Commission has been tasked by a two-thirds majority of this Siambr to produce a transformational step-change budget. In these turbulent times, strengthening a democracy in any nation is often a difficult but certainly noble endeavour, and while I in no way devalue the objections of those opposed to reform, those Members who have supported Senedd expansion have done so in order to build a stronger Parliament for the people of Wales, and that strengthened Parliament must of course be supported if it is to achieve the aims of the legislation that has created it. In order to deliver a 60 per cent increase in the size of the Senedd, the Senedd Commission today requests a 16 per cent uplift in our budget. The Commission budget request for 2025-26 is therefore £83.845 million, an increase of £11.65 million, and down on the £456,000 that was included in the supplementary budget.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

The budget request addresses four clear growth pressures: of course, Senedd reform, which we have discussed in Commission questions; a critical infrastructure programme for the Senedd estate; staff pay increases that simply reflect the UK Government's recent pay mandate; and a Ways of Working programme that will address the end of the lease of Tŷ Hywel in 2032. Tackling all of these measures now is by far the most cost-effective and efficient approach, and I will now turn to each area of the budget.

For the Senedd reform programme, Members will note that the cost in the budget is £6.5 million, which is an increase on last year's budget of £4.4 million. The Senedd reform programme includes provisions for new staff to prepare for the seventh Senedd, increases to non-staff budgets and funding for reconfiguring the Siambr and additional Members' offices in Tŷ Hywel. This budget for 2025-26 has increased from the initial regulatory impact assessment estimate that was prepared for the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024. In the preparation of this budget, I attended a scrutiny session with the Finance Committee on 3 October, which I'm very grateful for, and have had questions asked of me in the Siambr, and I have held informal discussions with Members through their groups. Members have been thorough in interrogating the difference between the RIA and current costs, and it is important to note that, although the RIA was lower than the current estimated costs, the net difference is less than an 8 per cent increase, at £400,000. And if Members agree the pay request, then actually it could even be argued to be lower than the RIA.

Capital costs have increased in order to deliver a specific design of Siambr that was requested by Members. The process for identifying a Siambr design began in the summer of 2023, involved a Members' reference group, which was attended by Members of all parties, also there were several drop-in sessions held in the cwrt through the course of the year, and there was discussion in political groups, which I was party to. The process is now far advanced, and we have to meet a clear construction deadline of 2026. Members have had a paramount role in the Siambr design, and the new Siambr will be fit for the future because of that. And to delay any further would inevitably cause delay in the delivery of Senedd reform.

Through careful analysis of resource need, future staffing costs have fallen from the initial 60 full-time equivalent staff in the RIA to a 48 full-time equivalent figure, which then accounts for a small uplift on the RIA, despite increased capital costs, subject to the caveat I mentioned about staff pay.

Overall, the Commission is confident that we are proceeding on a resource-efficient basis that adheres to the five principles that the Finance Committee require directly funded bodies to consider when preparing a budget. It was their first question to me at the Finance Committee session. Most notably they require us, where increases in funding are needed, to provide evidence of the need, benefit and attempts that have been made to reduce such costs. I'm pleased to say that, in the report following the scrutiny session on 3 October, the Finance Committee recognised that we've achieved this important goal and, by a majority, support the budget in full. And I'm sure that the Chair will have more to say on that in his speech. But I would say to the Chair of the Finance Committee that the Commission, in turn, accepts all 17 recommendations that your committee made in the report that followed that evidence session.

The estate critical infrastructure programme has a cost in the budget of £2.5 million. The budget also reflects the peak in costs of the critical estate programmes that we need to look at, and the details are in the budget report. But a number of key items are nearing end-of-life in both the Senedd and Tŷ Hywel. Spending will be prioritised, but a clear need has been identified to replace ICT and estate infrastructure this year. Members will note that one of the lifts is not functioning today, for example. Those costs for repairs cause problems in future budgets, and therefore are not actually saving by putting these things off. To delay these into future budgets will not be cost-effective and will lead to further budget requests.

The staff pay increases cost £2.7 million. This is a 9 per cent increase, compared to the 2024-25 laid budget. This partly reflects the UK and Welsh Government's 5 per cent increase in pay for the public sector, announced since July. And I would remind Members that the Government of Wales Act 2006 requires the Commission to bring parity between staff in the Commission and staff in the Welsh Government, which is why we need to agree that 5 per cent. There is no permanent growth in our existing staff base, with four temporary posts included to support additional committees requested by both the Welsh Government and the Senedd. These posts and costs will fall away when the committees' work is completed.

And finally the Ways of Working and Bay 32. That is a cost of £2.4 million in this year’s budget. Over this past 12 months, we’ve established a number of options that are available to the Commission on the future of this estate. As a result, we’re engaged in a competitive process to ensure best value to the public purse and to reflect public procurement best practice in the procurement of a future building. I’ve committed to providing further evidence through public scrutiny sessions with the Finance Committee on this project early next year and I look forward to doing so.

It has been noted that this draft budget does not offer savings, but the Commission has made a total of just under £1.6 million in savings in the last two years and our budget will continue to be managed very tightly, with a clear justification for every request we make. Further cuts to the Commission’s operational budget, especially in a year when we’ve asked to expand the Senedd, would be very difficult to deliver in reality without permanently degrading services to Members. It would also lead to perhaps negative comparisons between us and other Parliaments. I was pleased to note that the Finance Committee supported this position unanimously.

We’re going to reach a steady state in the seventh Senedd following the step-change budget and then we will return to our ongoing savings analysis provided by our medium-term resource plan. The budget I’ve presented today meets the democratic decision of this Senedd and I want to thank all Members who have engaged so constructively in its development, as well as especially the Finance Committee, who so rigorously scrutinised our proposals.

By supporting this budget today, Members will be setting the path to a Parliament that works for Wales, and I commend it to you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.