Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 9 October 2024

281 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon’s Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Sioned Willliams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about securing sufficient funding for Welsh public services? OQ61633

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you, Llywydd. The Welsh Government has been able to discuss future funding with the UK Government regularly since 4 July. Repairing the damage that we've seen inflicted over the past 14 years will not be accomplished overnight—a point made clearly by the UK Prime Minister during the general election campaign.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. Our public services, many of which are already in a critical state because of the austerity policies, are facing more cuts this year, as you know, as health boards reveal a shortfall of tens of millions in their funding, schools having to make teachers and assistants redundant, and local authorities across Wales now warning that hundreds of people will lose their jobs and that their services will be unable to meet demand. And we know that it is those who are most vulnerable in our communities who most need the support of public services, for the most part.

The Welsh Government says that its financial situation is a difficult one. So, will you call on the UK Government to reform the formula that deprives us of the funding that we need to meet the needs of the people of Wales? I met the leaders of Neath Port Talbot council last week, which, as you know, is already under additional pressure due to the loss of thousands of jobs in the Tata steelworks and the supply chain. Will you, therefore, also call for specific additional funding from the United Kingdom Government to ensure that the council and neighbouring local authorities are supported to meet the additional demands?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I thank Sioned Williams for those supplementary questions. I agree, of course, that public services in Wales are still vulnerable, and the funding that we have, or the financial situation that we face, remains difficult. We are working closely now with the new Government in Westminster, and I had an opportunity just last week to meet with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, along with Ministers responsible for finance in Northern Ireland and in Scotland. And every time we have those opportunities, it is an opportunity for us to make the case to the new Government for funding for public services and communities here in Wales.

As I said in my original response, that is not going to happen overnight. There are fundamental problems in the UK economy, and they remain, but the ambition of the new Government in Westminster is to grow the economy and, thereby, to have more money to invest in those things that are important to us here in Wales.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, in your previous role as First Minister, when there was a Conservative Government, you were very outspoken, were you not, in your calls for more funding for Wales, claiming that the Conservative Government wasn’t providing enough, as you’ve just reiterated. Now that Labour is in power, it seems that those public calls have gone quiet. You built up the public hopes that a Labour Government would secure more money for Wales, but since the election there’s been very little mention of this. If your calls for funding were genuine, Cabinet Secretary, then I’m sure that you’ve spent the last few months, as you’ve just said, as finance Minister, demanding extra money from your Westminster colleagues. You say you have, since you’ve been in post. Can you share the details of those conversations with us and tell us how much extra Wales will be getting?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 17 September, setting out our ambitions for Wales and how those might be reflected in the forthcoming budget. I’m very happy to make the substance of that letter available to the Member because it will demonstrate that of course the Welsh Government goes on making the case for funding for Wales for key priorities. The difference is we’re now dealing with a Government that shares those ambitions rather than a Government that was always determined to undermine them.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

There will always be a limited budget, so it’s important to set priorities. We’ve asked for Barnett to be replaced by a needs-based formula. But as the local government formula shows, a needs-based formula is complicated, and not everyone agrees with the result. If everything is a priority, then effectively nothing is. We saw in last year's budget that, outside health, rail was prioritised at the expense of culture and the environment. Has the Government considered a budget prioritisation process, and publishing the outcome, so that we can see what, outside health, the Welsh Government prioritises?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, every budget exercise is an exercise in prioritisation, and this one will be no different, because when you have a fixed sum of money available to you, a decision to spend more money on one subject is inevitably a decision to spend less money on another. And that is the case whatever the size of the budget, because the budget in the end is a fixed amount. In the last two years, that exercise of prioritisation has been particularly acute, and the Welsh Government was guided by a series of prioritising principles to protect core front-line public services as far as possible, to prioritise jobs in those spending decisions, to have the needs of those households hardest hit at the forefront of those decisions, and, as I say, a decision to spend more on something means you have to spend less on something else. So, it was an explicit principle of the last budget round that we should refocus money away from non-devolved areas and to use that money to support our public services. So, that will continue to be the approach taken by the Welsh Government. The budget will be an exercise, as Mike Hedges has said, in prioritisation, and those priorities will be laid in front of the Senedd and before the Finance Committee when the draft budget is laid and debated.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on any discussions he has had with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government regarding the funding of local authorities in north Wales? OQ61658

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I will be holding budget bilaterals with all Cabinet Secretaries this week. Discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government will focus on the funding of all local authorities right across Wales.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

We know all too well the acute pressures on both Welsh Government and local authority budgets as a consequence of 14 years of austerity. We know too the impact that that is having not just on our public services, but on all those who provide services in communities right across the country. Cabinet Secretary, you and I will also be very familiar with the concerns of local authorities, like my own in Flintshire, regarding the funding formula, and whilst I personally think we’ve reached a point now where we need to look at the funding of local government in the round, from whether that’s how grants work to the determination behind funding or whether local authorities should be funding things like fire and rescue services, I want to focus on one specific aspect this afternoon.

I’m aware that local authorities close to the border in north Wales, like Flintshire and Wrexham, are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit and retain to certain roles, such as social workers, because they find themselves increasingly competing with large authorities just over the border and don’t feel that they are in a position to offer the same competitive pay and conditions. So, can I ask if the Welsh Government could give some consideration to what could be potentially done to mitigate this, whether that is through a weighting in the funding formula to reflect such matters, or through another means? I’m sure you agree that it’s important not only to retain services, but public servants too, alongside our aspirations of being a nation of fair work and one that values public service. Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Hannah Blythyn for those interesting and relevant points. She will know that the local government funding formula is a data-driven formula—just about 4,000 different data points are used in calculating the distribution of the funding we’re able to provide to local authorities, with the vast bulk of that formula driven by population considerations, deprivation considerations and sparsity considerations, and that’s because every single local authority in Wales, in its own way, faces the challenges that Hannah Blythyn has referred to.

She’s absolutely right to point to the fact that local authorities along the border with England will face a recruitment challenge with other local authorities nearby, just as local authorities on the western edge of Wales face similar but different-in-nature recruitment problems because of the sparsity of the population available from which to recruit. So, I'm very happy to say to the Member that, of course, those issues will form part of our ongoing discussions with local authorities. I intend to be at a meeting of the finance sub-group that we have with the Welsh Local Government Association, which will be chaired by Jayne Bryant, as the Minister, on 22 October, and I've no doubt that the points that the Member has raised on behalf of the part of Wales that she represents will be raised and discussed again there.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, I think this is the first time that I'm addressing you in your formal position, and I welcome you to this role.

You will recognise that one of the biggest responsibilities that local authorities have is in relation to social care. The older population particularly has a huge reliance on social care services, and this has an impact in north Wales, which has a disproportionately older population. In your response to Hannah Blythyn, you talked about the data points that feed into the funding formula for local authorities. You may be aware that there are some cliff edges in terms or how some of those data points work. For example, over-60s receive a few pounds, or are worth, to a local authority, a few pounds in terms of that funding formula, but over-85s are worth a few thousand pounds. There are very stark differences in the amounts of funding available to local authorities, depending on the age of their population. And, of course, you will recognise that properly funded councils around social care are a huge enabler for creating space in our hospitals, to avoid bedblocking. So, I wonder, in your conversations with your colleagues that you outlined you're going to have, what consideration you'll be giving in particular to social care funding in local authorities, recognising the impact on older people in places like north Wales, and also recognising those cliff-edge data points, which I would suggest would need a review.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for the question and for his opening remarks. The debate about local government funding on the floor of the Senedd has often been pretty circular, hasn't it, with calls for changes to the formula. No local authority in Wales believes that the formula fully reflects its own needs and circumstances, but those needs and circumstances mean that local authorities are never in a good place to agree on what those changes should be. That does not mean, however, that the individual strands within the formula don't get reviewed and don't get updated to take account of emerging evidence. That work is done by the distribution sub-group of the groups that look at local government funding between the Welsh Local Government Association and the Welsh Government. And the distribution sub-group, as well as having representatives from local authorities, of course, has independent members on it to make sure that that work is done independently and rigorously. I'm pleased to be able to let the Member know that the distribution sub-group is currently engaged on reviewing the formula in relation to social care. So, while it may be difficult to make progress on a review of the formula itself, there is active work going on to look at individual strands within it, and social care is one of the ones that is at the top of that agenda.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from the party spokespeople next. The Conservatives spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I also welcome you formally, Cabinet Secretary, to your new role, even though we've spoken before? And can I thank you also for the engagement you've extended so far? That bodes well for us to have a constructive relationship, moving forward.

Cabinet Secretary, the issue of HS2 spending in Wales seems to be a contentious one amongst many of your colleagues. Now, my colleagues and I have been clear—I believe that Wales should get its fair share of funding from HS2, as many of your benches used to shout regularly from here to us. Now, last year, it seemed like the shadow Secretary of State for Wales agreed with me, saying that the Conservative Government in Westminster, and I quote, 'should cough up billions'. Now that she has had her promotion and is in a Labour Government in power, it seems those calls have been abandoned. Likewise, the First Minister seems to want to distance herself from previous Labour calls for billions of pounds of investment, and will now settle for some £350 million, I believe. Now, your party has clearly changed its tune when it comes to this investment. Why has the Government done such a u-turn on its expectations from HS2? Isn't this short-changing the people of Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Peter Fox for the question, of course, and look forward to these monthly exchanges that we will have, and look forward to continuing to be able to deal directly with spokespeople from other parties on emerging issues in relation to the budget and to finance.

I think the difference in the figures is very easily explained, and it’s certainly not that the Welsh Government has stood away from the long-held belief that HS2 spending was wrongly classified by the last Government and Wales ought to have had a consequential of rail funding in England. The £350 million is a figure that reflects what we believe that share would be of the money already spent and committed. The HS2 prospectus goes well beyond the current spending review, and if there is to be more money spent in the future, then our view is that it too should generate money that would come to Wales, and depending on how much is spent, that figure will be significantly higher than the £350 million. The £350 million is what we think we should have had already, because that’s money that’s already been committed and has already been spent. There will be money spent in the future and that explains some of the difference in the figures.

But just to be clear, and as the First Minister said yesterday, there is no difference in our basic approach to this. HS2 was wrongly classified as an England-and-Wales project, when all the expenditure and all the benefit went to England. We should have had a consequential of that funding. I look forward to further discussions with our UK colleagues as to how that can be put right.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. So many times we’ve heard colleagues on those benches over there saying that there was £6 billion underfunded, and Jo Stevens has said the same in the Westminster Chamber, that we should cough up billions, so you can understand why people are quite confused when we banter about these large figures of £5 billion or £6 billion and then we’re down to £350 million.

Wales is not only being deprived of money, but there is also an opportunity cost to giving up the fight for more money. Because every £1 not drawn down from the UK Government on HS2 consequentials is money that is not being invested in our own infrastructure. We all know that Welsh infrastructure is creaking and the figure of around £4 billion that has been bandied about and thrown about by your party would go a long way to improving things. So, what assessment have you made of the opportunity cost of not pursuing all that Wales deserves, because it’s so fundamental that we get that money sooner rather than later? We understand there is more money already being thought about that’s being spent on HS2 in a different direction—what are we doing to lobby to get that money to us?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the money that is needed to invest in the rail infrastructure in Wales includes HS2 but is beyond it. Our discussions with the current UK Government will not simply look at HS2—we will look at investment that needs to come to Wales to sustain the core Valleys lines, given their transfer to Wales. We will want to look at Network Rail’s plans for investment across the United Kingdom, to make sure that, in future, and it was certainly not true in the past, Wales gets a fair share out of that. So, in this sense, I agree with Peter Fox, there is a great deal of ground that needs to be made up, given the neglect of Wales over the last 14 years. I look forward to working with Labour colleagues to do that.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I’m going to move on to another area that I think deserves some clarification. Yesterday my colleague Sam Kurtz raised a question in here about the legitimacy of spending £16,000 on a St David’s Day event in New York, which served expensive, we heard, lobsters and various things—none of which strikes me as particularly Welsh or value for money. On the face of it, this seems completely unreasonable, especially considering the financial difficulty that we are all likely to face. I firmly believe we need to be showing off Wales to the world, and this could come at a cost—I accept that—but we need to make sure that the money is spent appropriately and delivers benefits to the people of Wales that we can see—tangible benefit. So, this isn’t the only major spend that was paid for by Welsh Government procurement cards; there are several purchases that beg questions. There probably are very great explanations around these, but the fact that there isn’t clarity in the public domain drives this fear. Now that you are Cabinet Secretary for finance, Cabinet Secretary, will you be looking into an internal audit of this and what is perceived by the general public, perhaps, as reckless spending of taxpayers' money?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the figures are only available because of the internal audit processes of the Welsh Government. That's how those figures come to be identified and to be put into the public domain. So, I don't think there's any lack of clarity there. Look, Peter Fox made the fundamental point: these were expenditures not simply around St David's Day, but they were around the game played between Wales and the United States of America during the football world cup. There was no greater opportunity to showcase Wales to the United States of America than when our two football teams were playing together on that stage. And he knows he would never have invited a group of investors to Monmouth and said to them, 'Come and see everything that Monmouth has to offer, and when you arrive, I'll offer you a cup of warm water in a plastic beaker', because you know that when you are trying to interest major investors and major companies and to show what Wales has to offer, you do have to make sure that you are showing the very best that Wales can have to offer and to use those opportunities. That was what was happening when those events were taking place. We have published the direct benefit that has come to Wales as a result of the expenditure we incurred around the world cup, and I'm very happy that those figures are there in the public domain for anyone to see.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. I also welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his role. I am very grateful for the engagement that has already happened and I look forward to working constructively. I have to say, the hypocrisy of the Conservatives is very striking, but it is important that we do, as a Senedd, express a united voice in fighting Wales’s corner, and demanding our fair share from Westminster for our nation. We need robust and strong voices to demand that, and with the authority and experience that you have, as the former leader of our nation, you are, without doubt, in a unique position to do so.

Last July you asserted in this Chamber that the election of a Labour Government at Westminster would lead to Wales getting

‘the investment that we need in our public services.’

However, given that it appears that Labour’s spending plans will leave areas of the Welsh budget that are not ring-fenced facing a £683 million shortfall in real terms by 2028-29, and that one of the most notable actions of the Labour Government in Westminster, so far, has been to withdraw the winter fuel allowance from thousands of vulnerable pensioners, which will, of course, ramp up pressures and costs on our NHS, do you regret your previous confidence in the ability of Keir Starmer to restore Wales’s public finances?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, what I can say, Llywydd, of course, is that I will have opportunities, as will the First Minister have opportunities, to have conversations with the new Government in Westminster and to speak to them about those issues that are important to us here in Wales, and to do that in a way where the Government in Westminster recognises those issues that are important to us and want to work with us in a constructive manner.14

As I said in my response to the first question from Sioned Williams, the funding won't be made available to us immediately here in Wales, nor across the whole of the UK, because the economic situation of the UK isn't healthy enough for us to do that. But the ambition of the Government in Westminster is to grow the economy, and in so doing to have more funding to invest in public services and those other things that are important to us here in Wales.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. But I'm sure that you agree with me that people in Wales are yearning for the rhetoric of the partnership of power to match up with the reality. They were promised so much. And how can it be a true partnership if one side steadfastly ignores the other on issues such as the devolution of the Crown Estate, HS2 consequentials and, most importantly, fair funding for Wales?

Last week, as you referenced earlier, the first meeting of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee since the general election was held in Belfast. Was the issue of replacing the Barnett formula with a needs-based funding model for Wales discussed? And if so, what was the response of the UK Government representatives?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, there is a stark contrast, it seems to me, between what Plaid Cymru were saying before the election and what they are saying to me now. I remember many, many questions from the leader of Plaid Cymru about where was the ambition of Labour for Wales, why was Sir Keir Starmer so unwilling to commit to expenditures and things? What Sir Keir Starmer was doing was explaining the challenges that an incoming Labour Government would face and the time that it would take to put right everything that had gone wrong over the previous 14 years. So, I don’t agree, of course, with the Member when she says that the list of things that she outlined have been ignored. Those things are there to be worked on and they're not all going to be solved in the first three months.

So, to come to her specific question, I did attend the FISC in Belfast last week. The Barnett formula was not discussed in the FISC itself and that is because our Scottish colleagues will never agree to the sort of reform that we advance here in Wales, and that is a four-nation forum. I have raised the Barnett formula with colleagues in London, of course, because there is a particular Welsh interest in it. But if you think that the FISC is a good place to make progress on it, then, I'm afraid, if you were around the table, you would see that it's absolutely not the context where you're likely to make any progress.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Well, Plaid Cymru will never apologise for taking every possible opportunity to stand up for Wales and call out for fair funding. That is hugely disappointing for many people who would expect Welsh Government to be taking every possible opportunity.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

There are signs that Keir Starmer’s administration are following in the footsteps of their predecessors in terms of their belief that Westminster knows better than this Senedd. We should be able to decide here how our own money is spent. For example, the UK Chancellor is currently considering a sweeping range of reforms to pension investment funds that could see the eight regional local government pension funds in Wales, alongside the Wales Pension Partnership, being amalgamated within a single fund for England and Wales. Without doubt, this is an area ripe for reform, but the fact that only 3.3 per cent of the assets held by the Clwyd Pension Fund are in the UK is a damning indictment of how our investment structures are often poorly aligned to serve domestic interests.

But, certainly, the solution is not to strip away local oversight of such funds and centralise a decision-making authority in London. The chronic failures of the levelling-up agenda should serve as a warning in this respect. Have you been consulted by your colleagues in Westminster regarding this potential reform, and do you believe that an amalgamated pension fund for England and Wales represents the best model for ensuring that Welsh money is reinvested effectively and consistently for the benefit of our own communities?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson's original remarks were her audition for leadership of the light brigade, weren't they? She doesn't care about the context in which she would be advancing Wales's case, she's willing to do it everywhere, whether that case would be guaranteed to fail or not. To advance—[Interruption.] No, no. To advance the cause of Wales, it is not enough simply to think that a soapbox and a megaphone will always be the right answer. You have to be sensitive to the context you're in and advance the case where it has the greatest sense of success.

Nor do I share a nationalist approach to pension funds. I want pension funds to work for the people who contribute to them, and that means there is a very direct interest for Welsh people whose money is in those pension funds to see that money being used for long-term investment here in Wales. Does that mean that I wouldn't be willing for money invested in an English pension fund to be spent here in Wales? Of course it doesn't. I want that money to be used to the best possible use and if that means that we will co-operate with pension funds on the other side of the border, because it is to Wales's advantage to do so, then I've no difficulty with that at all.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

3. What support does the Government provide to promote the use of the Welsh language in the South Wales East region? OQ61664

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Peredur Owen Griffiths, Llywydd, for that question. We provide grant support to a wide range of local and national partners to promote the use of the Welsh language across the South Wales East region in line with the vision set out in 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response. I'm given to understand that some local authorities are better than others in terms of engaging with stakeholders on Welsh language provision within their counties. One of the excuses given is that there isn't enough competence within the county to enable to use of the Welsh language. As you know, the Welsh in education Bill is currently being scrutinised, with a focus on Welsh in schools, but how does this promote the use of the Welsh language outside schools in communities where there isn't a high proportion of people using the Welsh language regularly in order to give young people an opportunity to use Welsh outside education?

One of the organisations that can help with this, of course, is the mentrau iaith, which do heroic work in the counties of the south-east, with fewer and fewer resources on a year-to-year basis. Can I ask you, therefore, as the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, whether you can confirm better financial support for the mentrau iaith to help to achieve your targets in terms of the numbers of Welsh speakers, as well as increasing the use of the Welsh language socially, as is set out in the Bill?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you for those supplementary questions. I do agree on the importance of the mentrau iaith, and I'm very eager to see the funding that we invest with the mentrau iaith at present continuing in future. Funding in the south-east of nearly £350,000 is spent with the mentrau iaith. In the last financial year, more than 1,000 activities were organised by the four mentrau iaith in the south-east, and more than 10,000 people took part in those events that they put on. That's important, as Peredur Owen Griffiths said, in terms of providing opportunities for people to use the language, not just in school but in the things that they do on an everyday basis.

The funding that we invest in the mentrau iaith goes along with the other things that we invest in—Cymraeg i Blant, the Urdd, learning Welsh provision and so forth. I'm sure that the Member heard the First Minister in the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd back in August announcing the fact that there will be more work to do be done with the commission that we've established, the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. The next part of the commission's work will focus on areas of Wales where there is a low density of Welsh speakers, and, of course, that will be a great help, hopefully, for the councils in the south-east.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, whilst, of course, we all want to see the Welsh language supported across Wales, including South Wales East, I believe that it's really, really important, where safety applies, to make sure that both English and Welsh are clearly presented and accessible for everyone. I have been made aware by multiple constituents that variable-speed message signs across the M4 that display messages concerning emergency warnings for queues ahead, poor driving conditions or to slow down due to an accident that has just taken place have only been available in Welsh, and therefore are difficult to understand for many heavy goods vehicle drivers travelling to Wales from abroad, tourists and residents who are not confident with Welsh or do not, indeed, speak it at all.

I fully understand that bilingual signs are a requirement under Welsh language law, and in many cases authorities try to ensure that Welsh and English signs are alternated in cases where the signs are not big enough to display both. But, with an unprecedented number of recent reports from constituents unveiling that on many occasions solely Welsh signs have been present on the M4, where safety should be a primary concern, what can you do to ensure that bilingual, not single language, messages are, indeed, always promoted? Thanks.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, great efforts are made, of course, to make sure that signs are available in both Welsh and English. I imagine that the occasions when people are only able to see a Welsh language warning are pretty small. There are signs, of course, that show things in English and then in Welsh, and then in English and then in Welsh, and that's a perfectly understandable way of going about it. If the Member wants to write to me with actual instances of the problem, of course I will look into them, but it has the sound of an urban myth to me. It's not the first time I've heard this, and, every time I've looked at it, it turns out to be not the sort of problem that has been proposed.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

4. What opportunities for spending efficiencies has the Welsh Government identified ahead of the publication of its draft budget for 2025-26? OQ61667

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Peter Fox for that, Llywydd. Preparations for the 2025-26 draft budget are under way. Further actions to ensure efficient spending of resources available to the Welsh Government will be identified in the context of the UK Government's budget on 30 October.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate the fact that being in leadership means making some difficult decisions, especially when it comes to budget allocations. It's clear that many of our public services are in dire need of improving, requiring extensive investment to ensure that the people of Wales get healthcare, education and infrastructure fit for the twenty-first century. We've heard already in here today how local authorities are struggling as well.

Now, earlier this month, the First Minister set out her long list of priorities for the Government. However, as Mike Hedges said earlier here today, if everything's a priority, then nothing is a priority. With this in mind, what areas do you envisage being most heavily impacted to fund your likely priorities?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Prif Weinidog outlined four top priorities in her oral statement here on the floor of the Senedd, and those four priorities will drive decision making through the budget. Many of those priorities will not be new to Members of the Senedd, because they reflect the conversations that the Prif Weinidog held over the summer. So, cutting NHS waiting times, which is the very first thing she mentioned in her statement, will certainly be a priority in the budget-making process.

The original question that Peter Fox asked was about spending efficiencies, and my job, as the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for finance, is not simply to allocate sums of money for key priorities, but to make sure that that money extracts the maximum value from the expenditure that we have. And I'll give him an assurance that, in my conversations with my Cabinet colleagues, when I'm hearing from them about the priorities that they want to pursue in the coming year, I always want to ask them questions about how they can provide assurances that that money is being applied in a way that has the maximum effect for Welsh public services.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

5. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the UK Government regarding when it will make funding available to pay compensation to people in Wales affected by the infected blood scandal? OQ61668

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Can I thank Julie Morgan for that question, Llywydd? I met with Nick Thomas-Symonds, the UK Minister with responsibility for the infected blood inquiry, on 14 August. The Welsh system has received funding from the UK Government and successfully made interim compensation payments to infected beneficiaries and bereaved partners. Preparation is now being made to make payments to eligible estates in the coming weeks.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for your answer.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

In April 2023, Sir Brian Langstaff, chair of the infected blood inquiry, published his second interim report on compensation to alleviate immediate suffering and recognise the deaths of people who've so far gone unrecognised. He also said it's a fact that around 380 children with bleeding disorders were infected with HIV in the 1970s and 1980s, some of them died as children, and their parents have never received compensation. Sir Brian recommended that an interim payment was to be made to families that were previously unrecognised through the existing UK support schemes, to ensure that this group did not have to wait until a new UK-wide scheme was established, and that this should be up and running by the end of 2023. However, 18 months have passed since that announcement, and yet no estate payments have been made. Families have not been told when applications will be open and what evidence they will need to progress a claim. Can this Cabinet Secretary confirm when interim estate applications will open through the Wales infected blood support scheme, and what evidence families will need to provide? The Government have also stated that applications for the living under the new UK-wide infected blood compensation authority will start at the end of this year. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm this?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Julie Morgan. The information I have is that applications for the interim estate payments will open this month, that there will be interim payments of up to £100,000 payable to the estates of deceased people who were registered with an infected blood support scheme or the predecessor Alliance House organisation, where people were infected with contaminated blood or blood products and whose deaths have not yet been recognised. So, we are told that will be open before the end of October, and, when it opens, then the details of the application process will be published alongside it.

Can I thank the Member particularly, Llywydd, for raising earlier in the summer the need for Haemophilia Wales to be more directly involved in plans for the UK-wide infected blood compensation authority? I was able to raise this myself with Nick Thomas-Symonds, the UK Minister responsible, and I understand that arrangements are now being put in place for Lynne Kelly, the chair of Haemophilia Wales, to meet with Sir Robert Francis, who will be the chair of the infected blood compensation authority, to make sure that the views of Welsh sufferers are fully known as the plans for the compensation authority are firmed up. Jeremy Miles is due to meet the UK Minister and other UK Ministers on 16 October and I am told that the UK Government expects the infected blood compensation authority to begin assessing claims and making payments to people who are infected under the infected blood compensation scheme by the end of this year.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Minister, I'm so glad that the Member, Julie Morgan, has raised this. Both she and I will recall—we're old enough to remember—this awful, awful tragedy, and I'm sure like me she's pleased that the previous UK Conservative Government agreed that compensation finally will now be coming forward. I'm so pleased that the new Government, UK Government, has continued that commitment.

I am a little concerned how this compensation now will be distributed. It's so important to ensure that those affected by the scandal are well looked after. As has already been said, people have died now waiting for this—who were waiting and have suffered for many, many years with both the worry and the conditions. Haemophilia Wales state that in the 1970s and 1980s, 283 patients in Wales were infected with hepatitis C, and 55 were infected with HIV through factor concentrates made from imported pooled plasma. It's just shocking to even think about, and, alone, over 70 people with haemophilia have died.

So, we are looking for assurances, Cabinet Secretary, that everyone eligible for compensation in Wales has actually been identified, and certainly it's pleasing to hear that the estates link has now been opened up so they will now start to receive compensation. Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that. This is a shared ambition, I know, across the Chamber, to make sure that people who were caught up in these awful events receive the compensation to which they are entitled; £60.2 million has come to Wales via the UK Government to fund the interim compensation payments that have been made to date, and there is an additional £3 million available for the estate interim payments. The funding is ring-fenced for that purpose, and my responsibility as the finance Minister is really just to make sure that the money is there for the purposes for which it is intended.

Jeremy Miles, as I say, is meeting with Nick Thomas-Symonds and others next week to make sure, as Janet Finch-Saunders said, that that money reaches all the people who are entitled to claim. I'm sure that he will be keeping a very close watch on the way in which the transfer of responsibility in Wales happens. The WIBS scheme is one that people are familiar with. Everybody is agreed that those beneficiaries should transfer to the independent authority, but we will be watching very hard to make sure that that transfer is carried out in a way that safeguards the interests of current users and future users of the compensation scheme in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I also wanted to add my voice in pushing for rapid movement on this. I'm grateful to the Member for Cardiff North for asking the questions today and, of course, for all her work with the contaminated blood cross-party group here that I now chair. And I agree with the point that she made, and that endorsed by the Cabinet Secretary, in paying tribute to Haemophilia Wales and calling for them to be tied in as closely as possible to the work of making sure payments are made quickly.

It's been good to see movement in recent months, but we're still quite a way from seeing justice done on this. Back in July, I think it was, when Nick Thomas-Symonds, the Paymaster General, said that the interim payments for deaths previously unrecognised would be made in October. It is now October and those who may be eligible for payment haven't been told yet what evidence they'd need to provide, for example, to progress their claims, victims that have had to wait for so long. My ask quite simply is for the Cabinet Secretary to do everything within his power, and his colleagues in the Cabinet, to remind UK Government of the real urgency around making these payments.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I can assure the Member that those opportunities will definitely be taken. As I said, I spoke to Nick Thomas-Symonds directly myself about this matter in August. He'll be meeting with Jeremy Miles next week. The assurances we have are that the window for payments for the estate scheme will open in October, and that the information that people have to provide in order to demonstrate that they qualify for payments will be properly advertised to those who will need to know that.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

6. What are the Government's plans to increase people's confidence in speaking Welsh? OQ61642

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the most effective way of raising confidence in speaking Welsh is to increase opportunities to use the language. That is why we aim to create a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and to double the use of the language in everyday life in Wales.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I have a cousin, as it happens, who was in the same year as you in school in Carmarthen, and although his parents speak Welsh—I don't have any stories—but although his parents speak Welsh, he is quite adamant that he cannot speak Welsh. But then in a conversation, he'll say things like this: 'John Jones is ffaeledig iawn these days' or 'I can't remember his name—be' ti'n galw?' And I experience something similar with some of my former classmates from Ysgol Glantaf. I meet them and they say, 'Oh well, I've forgotten all my Welsh', but then when reminiscing they pepper our conversation with Welsh vocabulary. You were sitting next to the Cabinet Secretary for Education yesterday, and she said, 'Even though I have an A-level in Welsh, I don't have the confidence.' Confidence is so important and it's part of your strategy as a Government to create citizens who are confident in Welsh by 2050.

Personally, you have succeeded, and there are others here who have succeeded. How can we develop that and transfer that beyond the Senedd? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I agree, of course, with the Member. When I speak to people who are learning Welsh, they always tell me that there is a shortage of opportunities for them to use what they learn in the classroom in their daily lives. So, by creating more opportunities for people to practise their Welsh, that's the best way of raising confidence. The more you talk, the more you're willing to talk. So, there are many things that we're trying to do as a Government.

Could I also just say that I do think that there is a responsibility on Welsh speakers to help those people who are learning, to give them opportunities to use their Welsh language skills? On occasion, Welsh learners aren't willing to use their Welsh with Welsh speakers because they feel that they're slowing the conversation down, or that people will be critical of the standard of their language, and so on.

So, there are many things that the Government can do with partners in local authorities, in the third sector, and so on. Just to give you one example this afternoon, Llywydd, I'd just like to highlight the ARFer project, which aims to raise confidence, because that's new. It's emerged from the Arfor programme that was part of the co-operation agreement between the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru on the floor of the Assembly. Canolfan Bedwyr have succeeded in accessed a grant from the Arfor fund to develop an app, and the aim is for workplaces across Wales to use this app in order to increase the use of the Welsh language in the workplace. So, that's another way in which we can provide people with opportunities, and in so doing provide more opportunities to increase people's confidence in using the Welsh language.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you to Rhys ab Owen for that question, an important question. I was pleased—I almost called you 'First Minister'—Cabinet Secretary, to hear you use the word 'use' in your original response to Rhys ab Owen, and that's important, because we do have a target in terms of the number of Welsh speakers—and there's talk in this question of Welsh speakers—but in terms of those who are taking steps to speak Welsh in the first place, it's always surprising to me that the same people don't want to know about reading or writing Welsh, and that's a skill too. We don't discuss it enough, I don't think. So, what more could we do to build confidence and skills in terms of the number of people who not only speak Welsh, but read and write Welsh too?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you. That is an important point. For me, the best way to do it is to start with speaking, and if we can persuade people to use the language in that way, that will help people to become more confident to write and read the language as well. But without more opportunities to speak the language and use the language in that way, I don't think that many people will want to go on to develop other skills in the language without having more opportunities to just use the language in their everyday lives. So, start with speaking, raise people's confidence to speak, and in doing so, help to persuade people to develop more skills in terms of reading and writing as well.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

7. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about funding the continued expansion of the neighbourhood district nursing pilots? OQ61663

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, these discussions will form part of the draft budget preparation.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you, and I heard earlier that you're going to be having those meetings next week. The success of the community nursing pilots in the three areas of the pilots has now expanded to over 60 teams across Wales, but that is still not full coverage, because, obviously, you want to keep the team small enough to be representing a natural community. And if we want to drive down the waiting lists, which, as you've already said, is Eluned Morgan's top priority, keeping people out of hospital or avoiding delayed transfers of care costing £350 a day, at least, are key to driving down that objective. So, what are the financial constraints, if any, to expanding these community nursing teams to cover the whole of Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, thank you to Jenny Rathbone. I agree with her that the expansion of the community nursing teams has been a great success story here in Wales. It too began with a budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, as it happens, to mount Buurtzorg pilots here in Wales, learning from the experiments in the Netherlands. I know that the health committee of the time took an interest in all of this and had made some recommendations that we've been able to implement as well. But the Member asked, 'What are the financial constraints, if any?', and I'm afraid that the sad truth is that financial constraints are very real, because public services are under such pressure of budgets that it is an extra struggle to be able to move money to new things, when you're still having to continue the service that you started with. But the investment that the Welsh Government has made in this scheme has been real, and I fully expect to discuss with the Cabinet Secretary for health how we can continue to build on that success into the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on income tax rates in Wales? OQ61635

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, rates of income tax in Wales are set each year as part of the annual budget process, through a rate resolution agreed by the Senedd.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities published a report that suggested that targeted tax cuts could stimulate economic and social activity in areas facing depopulation, like rural areas. Indeed, the report draws on the policy of the Castilla-La Mancha region in Spain, where residents in rural areas are offered a 25 per cent income tax reduction. In light of this report, Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm whether the Welsh Government is considering targeted tax reductions for those living in rural areas, and can you also tell us what other financial measures are being discussed as a way of tackling depopulation?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Paul Davies for that question, Llywydd. The terms on which Welsh rates of income tax are devolved to Wales don't allow us to have targeted tax cuts on a geographical basis. In fact, it's a very, very blunt instrument that we have without some of the—I want to say 'hyblygrwydd'—without some of the flexibility that our colleagues in Scotland have in dealing with the devolved powers that they have in this area. So, whilst it's an interesting idea and I'm aware of the report, the current powers that we have I don't believe would allow us to proceed in that direction.

The wider picture that Paul Davies points to, of course, is one that is relevant across the whole range of portfolio responsibilities. While my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies has particular responsibility for rural communities, the services that are provided in health and education, in transport and all the other responsibilities that are on the Cabinet table have a bearing on daily life in our rural communities, and I have no doubt at all that ideas will emerge during the budget-making process that would have an effect on the communities to which Paul Davies has made reference.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 2 is questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the delivery of a new national park in north-east Wales? OQ61639

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed. The designation of a national park in north-east Wales is a programme for government commitment. We have asked NRW to undertake the detailed assessment and the engagement work that is necessary. NRW will now be seeking the public's views on refined proposals for the boundary of a new national park, and I encourage all those with an interest to participate.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that response, Deputy First Minister. As Members of this Chamber will know, I've been calling for the establishment of a national park in north-east Wales for many years. In fact, I first called for it back in 2010, when it was then very unpopular on the Labour benches, I have to say, so I'm glad that you eventually caught up with my thinking.

One of the challenges with national parks is that sometimes people can be upset about what they consider to be the lack of democratic accountability with national park authorities. As you will be aware, the AONB status, the area of outstanding natural beauty status, is managed as a designation by local authorities, which then means that that lack of democratic accountability that people perceive with national parks isn't a problem. Can I ask what consideration the Welsh Government has given to reforming national parks in such a way that the designations can be managed by local authorities directly, rather than via the establishment of another national park authority to do so?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Darren, thank you very much for that question, and can I recognise your championing of this national park? The national park legislation was, of course, one of the greatest of many triumphs of that post-war Labour Government, and I was pleased as a Minister serving under the then Secretary of State for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Hilary Benn, to take forward one of the legacy national parks that was never delivered by that post-war Government in the South downs.

I realise this is a significant undertaking, but it is part of our programme for government, and the point that you make in terms of democratic engagement is a valid point to make. What I would say is, in this period now where NRW are taking forward this public-facing engagement—and there is a great deal of detail behind that engagement—I genuinely encourage people to take part in the opportunities, with the road shows and the wider consultation, to feed in those views about democratic engagement, because there are indeed different models that have emerged over the years—over the decades, in fact—of the way in which democratic engagement within national parks can be done. I'm not going to pre-empt it; I think it's right that we listen, because in this significant undertaking, a recommendation will, at some point, be brought forward to Welsh Government, to myself as Cabinet Secretary. Should the Welsh Government then take forward the designation of a new national park, then detailed consideration will be given to the best model, in a wide range of areas, including that democratic engagement.

But it’s a very valid point that you raise, and I’d encourage you and others to put forward their views on the models, the running, the operation and the priorities. Let’s not forget as well that one of the greatest achievements of these national parks is not only recognising that they are living landscapes, but also that ability to enable people who are on the doorstep, or even visitors from afar, to have that quiet enjoyment of some of our most significant national landscapes, and, of course, to enhance biodiversity and develop climate resilience as well. So, it’s a very good point indeed, and please join me in urging everybody to engage in that consultation.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I’d like to thank Darren Millar for raising this issue.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I was really proud to stand on a manifesto pledge in 2021 to explore a new national park in north-east Wales. I believe it will bring many benefits to our corner of the country, and shine a spotlight on all we have to offer. But it’s really important, as has been alluded to, that communities feel fully engaged in this process and that they're aware of the proposal altogether. I was at a meeting of Caerwys Women's Institute—the wonderful women of the WI—in the summer, and it was striking how many people, even though they were in an area that would be covered by a new national park, weren’t fully aware of it. So, I’m keen, in my role, to make sure people and communities are fully engaged.

Can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, if you can provide any more details about the 10-week consultation period, and how people can feed in those views? But also, how would you see the role of us Members who are keen to champion this proposal in making sure that we address any misgivings or potential misunderstandings about what a national park could mean?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much for that question. Again, I recognise the way that you’ve championed this. In the run-up to the election you championed this, and continue to do so, to make sure that everybody can have their say on what a proposal for a national park in the north-east may well look like.

The public consultation, I’m glad to say, is under way. It will run between 7 October and 16 December, so there’s ample time for people to feed their views in, but don’t miss the opportunity. There is a study area, referred to as an ‘area of search’, which was shared during a public engagement period in late 2023. And following evidence gathering, there have been some changes to this now. So, the proposed area will be consulted upon with the public, and the WI, and others, should get involved with this.

The events will be an opportunity to learn more about the project and the evidence gathered to date, to ask those probing questions of the team who are developing the proposal, and to share their feedback on the draft boundary map, referred to now as the ‘candidate area map’. There are going to be 10 drop-in events, spread across the study area. There are going to be three public online events as well, to broaden it to those who can’t attend in person. There’s a further seven targeted group events for key audiences, including for elected Members across the Chamber, and other elected members, for environment and heritage groups, the renewable energy sector, the agricultural and farming sector, landowners, and, indeed, business and tourism as well. So, there'll be targeted sessions for them.

There’s a summary of the consultation events online, and, genuinely, once again, I would say to everybody who’s interested in this—including those like you, Hannah, who’ve been championing this—that they should urge people to get involved and have their say within this.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I attended the very first meeting of that public consultation on Monday night, but I was rather concerned, actually, because there were voices there from elected county councillors, and also town and community councillors, who didn’t really feel that they’d been engaged meaningfully thus far. There was one town in particular that was outside of the boundary originally proposed but now finds itself inside the boundary that’s being consulted upon, but the town council there haven’t even been asked of their opinion. So, there are issues around the consultation, and I would, of course, encourage everybody to take part, but maybe you need to reflect on how effectively that’s happened thus far.

You mentioned the benefits to biodiversity. Of course, we know that creating a national park is not an environmental silver bullet. Only 6 per cent of existing national parks are managed effectively for nature. Should we, therefore, be focusing on getting what we have right in the first place, instead of overextending ourselves in terms of resources and effort with creating a new, additional national park?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Llyr, very much. I think, again, in your question, you’ve shown the importance of people engaging, to see what they like and what they don’t like, and where they have concerns, or where they have outright support for the proposals. I have to step back from the process that is under way, because ultimately, a proposal of some sort will be brought in front of me. The detail of the proposal is thoroughly being consulted on, which is a revision of the boundaries and so on. That is exactly what is out there now for the public to make their views known on: 'Is it right?' I’m sure, the same as the South Downs process, there will be communities saying, ‘We want to be in there’; there’ll be others that say, ‘We don’t want to be in, we want to be left outside of it’. But that’s exactly what this is about.

On the point of biodiversity, you’re absolutely right that it is not only national parks that help us deliver our biodiversity restoration improvements that we want to see and tackle the loss of biodiversity; there are other designated landscapes and parts outside of designated landscapes, indeed. We do know that our designated landscapes—all of them—do provide a valuable contribution to conservation management, but there is also potential to do more with the right tools and resources.

We’ve got several initiatives now under way to do this, including nature recovery strategic officers across parts of Wales to help co-ordinate this activity. We do indeed do training for national park members; we have increased our funding for biodiversity projects. We know that, whilst there’s a lot more to do in this area, it does require collaboration and the input of partners way beyond the Welsh Government and the national parks to drive forward biodiversity. But I would say that if a proposal does come forward and subsequently meets the consideration that we have to make on it, we do know that national parks can be right at the forefront of proactive nature recovery work—they have a role to play. But again, I urge people now in this consultation period to put their thoughts in.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of progress towards reaching its biodiversity targets? OQ61670

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

The state of natural resources report 2025 will provide an assessment of the state of biodiversity and our natural resources in Wales. The forthcoming environmental governance and biodiversity targets Bill will introduce powers for Welsh Ministers to set biodiversity targets in secondary legislation, alongside effective monitoring, evaluation and reporting.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Minister, we are looking forward to our Welsh Government bringing forward that very flagship legislation, which will put in place the environmental governance, environmental principles and powers to set biodiversity targets. This will show leadership, once again, here at home. But, Minister, we also need to show strong leadership internationally. So, can I ask what will be the key priorities for the Welsh Government in the lead-up to COP16 on biodiversity?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Rhianon, thank you for that follow-up question. You’re right: we need to show leadership here at home and internationally as well. Wales I often describe as a small but mighty country in terms of our influence and our ability to share our experience and where we are leading in certain areas, not least, for example, the recent announcement that our five-year peatland programme—we are incredibly proud of the work that’s been done here in Wales, with officers but also with volunteers—has achieved the ambitious target of restoring 3,000 hectares of peatland a year early, indeed. This goes a long way to ensure that these types of precious habitats can survive and adapt in a changing climate. There’s more that we’ll be doing based on the findings of the biodiversity deep-dive as well.

But you rightly flag up that we also have a role to play internationally. COP16 is rapidly approaching. My officials have been intensely engaged with partners there, and Wales has a role to play there. We’ll be focusing on the key priorities of, first of all, bridging the biodiversity finance gap, which is a real concern. We’ll be focused on partnering for nature, looking for innovative solutions, mechanisms, partnerships between that horrible term—and I hate the term, Llywydd—‘sub-national’ Governments—. But we actually know that the impact of some of the major cities and regions around the world, plus countries like Wales, is significant; it can drive biodiversity restoration, alongside the private sector and multilateral development banks as well, to address this biodiversity finance gap. We will be pushing participation in the High Ambition Coalition for Nature and People, so sharing the work that we are doing in Wales on the 30x30 approach to protect and effectively manage 30 per cent of our land, our freshwater and our ocean by 2030.

We will be showcasing the best of what we're doing in Wales, such as the peatland action programme and restoration, and achieving those targets ahead of time. Officials will be attending the eighth summit for the sub-national governments and cities, working with others at a sub-national level, including Regions4, including the United Nations environment programme, to make sure that our voice and the voice of those local and sub-national governments can really push on biodiversity. So, there's a range of things that we have as a priority, and it shows that the work that we do on leadership doesn't just stop here in the boundaries of Wales—we also need to work with others to push biodiversity restoration internationally.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, Natural Resources Wales, like many Government-funded organisations, are struggling with severe financial difficulties. To be precise, I'm sure you're aware of a £13 million funding gap over the last year, which is expected to rise to £17 million in 2026-27. These shortfalls have resulted in the organisation having to cut 265 jobs, going forward, which will likely see Wales left without as many staff on the ground focusing on protecting biodiversity. Deputy First Minister, I know that, last week, in response to the debate, you said, and I quote,

'tackling the climate and nature emergencies is fundamental to...this Government'.

But what also, sadly, appears fundamental to this Government is—and I know many of my colleagues have said this—spending £24,000 in a luxury Manhattan restaurant, and £5,150 in a members' club in Los Angeles. When raised by my colleague Sam Kurtz just yesterday, he was accused of, and I quote, 'digging around', which—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I am going to need to—. I am struggling slightly to know where biodiversity links in to your question.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

It's coming.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Maybe lobsters might be the connection—

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Don't worry, we won't go down the lobster route. It's all right. I'll bring it back home for you, don't worry.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

—but I'm struggling to find it. If you can come to your question, please.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

That's fine. As you get the gist, Deputy First Minister, with these quite frankly repulsive tabs being picked up by the taxpayer, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, and when every Government-run organisation is running out of money, I just wondered if you'd consider redirecting these funds towards your Government's so-called priorities, such as biodiversity, instead of these meals out. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Natasha. I'll strip out the politics of this for the moment, but I'll just point out that, a fortnight ago, I was myself—full disclosure—at the New York climate week. And in that New York climate week, I met with many sub-national partners; I also met with UK Ministers. And we succeeded, for the first time, after reluctance from the UK Conservative Government for over a decade, in the UK Government signing up to the coalition of high ambition on climate change, for the first time ever. They cited in that move that they made—and well done to them—the direct engagement that they had with the Welsh Government. So, there is sometimes a reason, Llywydd, why Wales goes internationally, to work with its diaspora, to work with others, on values that we share with other international players, including shortly, I have to say, when the visitors from the Wampi Indians will come to visit here in the Senedd. We work internationally—there's a reason for doing it.

But on the substantive point, there is indeed a funding gap that NRW is seeking to close. They are under significant stretch, and have been for a while. I will not rehearse the arguments, valid as they are, over the decade and more that all public organisations throughout the UK had to face because of the funding gaps that we had, pushed by austerity. I won't dwell on that. But what they have done is they've been through a baseline review, looking at their core functions. They continue to go through that exercise of looking at how do they discharge what they're legally, statutorily, regulatory, absolutely expected to do. And they're really focused on that intensely. In the piece of work they're going through at the moment, sensitive as it is, difficult as it is, with really hard-working staff, they're working with the trade unions to make sure that they can mitigate the worst of those challenges whilst also delivering the things that we expect them to do as members of the public and as Senedd Members, in making sure that they protect our environment, our waters, our soils, deliver the flood capabilities they have, and so much more.

I have confidence that NRW will do that, and they have a duty to do that as well. But be under no mistake, not just where we've come from with the financial challenges, but going ahead, it doesn't look as though we're suddenly in sunny uplands—there are going to be more challenges coming. But I fully expect, and am optimistic, that NRW will seek to continue to discharge its duties on behalf of the people of Wales and the natural environment.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from the party spokespeople now. Conservatives spokesperson, James Evans.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, Natural Resources Wales are the agency responsible for monitoring the NVZ regulation across Wales. As my colleague Natasha Asghar said, they are facing huge funding cuts and job losses. Can you confirm today how you expect NRW to continue the monitoring of NVZs with the huge pressure that the Welsh Government is putting on them with funding cuts? They can only do so much. This Government is asking them to do more. If you’re asking them to do more, you’ve got to put the money upfront to make them able to do it, because officers not there are not going to be able to deliver what this Government wants.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Again, reflecting on the answer I gave to your colleague Natasha Asghar, for NRW, this is not new, the pressure that NRW are under. They’ve had several years of having to focus back on what they are required to do in terms of environmental protection and flood protection and their other statutory and regulatory duties, including on agricultural pollution, including on river quality and all of those aspects. That is the exercise that they’ve been involved with for some time. The current discussions that they’re having internally are again on how they can focus on those duties, discharge those duties properly, and do it with a proper, risk-based analysis as well. They realise that they’re not immune as a public body or an arm’s-length body from the financial pressures that reach right across not only here, but also the Environment Agency in England and elsewhere as well.

But I give credit, I have to say, to the officers within NRW who do sterling work. I’ve asked them on occasion during my tenure here to work with us and to work with the farming community to make sure that they can work in a way that is empathetic to the challenges that farmers are facing, and they’ve done so. So, I have confidence in NRW that they will do their very best to discharge their duties, going forward.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I’m sure they will, but the number of job losses is colossal. They’ve got to look at agricultural pollution, water quality, forestry, flooding—that’s just to name a few things that they do. It’ll be interesting to see how they do manage that.

Cabinet Secretary, the control of agricultural pollution regulations in Wales included a closed period for the spreading of slurry, which does aim to reduce nutrient pollution in water courses. However, unforeseen circumstances, such as weather-related challenges and disease outbreaks, can led to full slurry stores. That poses a significant risk to farmers being able to comply with the rules that this Government’s put on them. Additionally, obtaining planning permission for slurry stores is a huge problem across Wales. So, given those challenges, Cabinet Secretary, what action should farmers take to ensure that compliance within the closed periods is adhered to and to stop those mitigating risks to their businesses? One thing I’m hearing, Cabinet Secretary, is who should farmers contact to discuss the issues they’re having, because NRW are telling people to contact the Welsh Government, and the Welsh Government are telling people to contact NRW, and then, in between all that, they’re telling people to contact their local authorities? You can understand why this is confusing for the agricultural sector, so could you please shed a light today: who are farmers supposed to contact?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes. They're meant to contact NRW if the issue that they have to deal with is with NRW. It's NRW. So, James, it would help very much if you could clarify to farmers who are contacting you that that is the right course of action. It's certainly not the Welsh Government. Even though I have a set of wellies that I go out with on farms, I'm not out there every day dealing with every farm across the whole of Wales. NRW are doing that, and they're doing it despite the financial challenges.

Can I just say to you that the regulations that we have provide a minimal level of slurry storage to help prevent agricultural pollution? The issues being faced by farmers currently actually highlight the importance of good manure management in preventing pollution. The guidance that accompanies the regulations makes it clear that additional storage may be needed to comply with the requirements of the regulations. The amount of storage needed will be highly dependent on the individual farming practice on that individual farm business, hence the regulations do not unnecessarily burden farms that may be able to operate with a lower level of storage, the statutory minimum. We do know some farms have, indeed, faced difficulties, and I've been discussing this with the farming unions and others. They've faced difficulties with planning, with local planning authorities having advised me that planning is usually taking around 10 to 18 weeks. So, a transitional period of 174 weeks was provided—174 weeks—in relation to slurry storage and the closed period, meaning most farms will, with the right planning, have had sufficient time to adapt and to plan through this.

However, I do recognise the difficulties farms have faced since the regulations were introduced, including the impact of global events on materials and costs and the need for time to access financial support to achieve compliance. So, I have, in consultation with NRW, considered the enforcement approach in these circumstances. We've identified some changes to the Welsh Government cross-compliance verifiable standards, which will take these matters into account, and they will be published at the end of this month. Breaches of the slurry storage requirements, the closed periods and the restrictions that apply following the closed periods, will be reduced where the breach is identified before 1 August 2025. This will only be the case where the pre-existing regulatory storage capacity is met and evidence of having taken reasonable steps to achieve compliance is available. And as with, James, all cross-compliance requirements, any exceptional circumstances that may prevent compliance would be considered on a case-by-case basis. But, Llywydd, I repeat my very strong advice that any farm should contact NRW at the earliest opportunity to take advice where there is a risk, especially where there is a risk that the slurry store will fill beyond the freeboard, because, when the freeboard is breached, it can risk catastrophic failure of the store, placing the farmer and others at significant risk.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. With the detail you've just outlined, I think it would be very useful for this Chamber if we could actually have an update from you and a statement on the changes that you've made, rather than announcing them today. If we could have that statement from you in the future, I think that would be very, very useful.

One thing that you failed to mention was that the regulatory impact assessment for the NVZs estimated a significant upfront financial cost to farmers to build slurry stores—about £360 million it was averaged for NVZ compliance across Wales, and the Welsh Government only committed £20 million towards that. So, it's this Government again bringing in regulation, but, actually, not putting the full amount of money there to enable our farmers to actually meet the regulations that you put forward. So, given those financial burdens that are placed on our farmers, how will this Welsh Government ensure that farmers have that additional funding that they require to meet your requirements, to build the slurry stores, to get them through the planning stage, which also can be very costly when you've got to comply with all the different regulations and get everything signed off in time? So, I'd be very interested to know what you are doing to actually top up that £20 million to make sure people do it, because if you don't put more money on the table, farmers will go out of business, and what we're going to see is loads of farmers across Wales not complying with this regulation. That's not something I want to see, because I don't want to see farmers getting fined across Wales for doing something that you've imposed on them.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, let's be absolutely clear that the recent £20 million, which was part, indeed, of the agreement that came through the co-operation agreement, which I very much welcomed—bringing forward that announcement of £20 million—wasn't a stand-alone. It actually brings our total offer to £52 million to support on-farm infrastructure investment since the regulations were introduced. I'll just repeat that: £52 million has gone into this. Now, we've been stretched on the budget, but we found the additional £20 million. We will look in the future, going forward as well, at what can be done. But I know the stretch that my colleague the finance Secretary will be under and the pushback that he will be pushing to all of us, to say, 'How do we balance the books here?' But, just to say, in the most recent announcement, I made the appeal, Llywydd, to farming unions and to the wider farming community, 'Please, please, please put in your applications', because not always have we seen farmers take up the money that's been put on the table. This time they are. Over 800 farmers have applied for that funding. We'll be signing off the vast majority very soon, as long as the business cases are in place and so on.

We've also, by the way, made additional grant awards to the value of £1.6 million under the yard coverings scheme as well. We've also invested in the nutrient management investment scheme, with over 900 farmers. So, this is far from being one single £20 million investment. We've put our money where our mouth is, but we do want to actually say to farmers, 'Step up, plan for this, work through the difficulties that there are with planning, the difficulties that there are with the weather, and so on'. I'm very aware of them. I've been out speaking to farmers relentlessly on this issue, listening to them and trying to adjust the way we're going forward. But there is a deal on the table here that says we need farmers to step up to the mark and work through this and go for it, grab the money, work through the planning and put these in place.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

After everything we've heard over recent weeks about problems in emptying slurry stores and the appalling wet weather that we've experienced, do you still believe that farming according to the calendar works?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I've had some interesting engagement with farmers who've put forward alternative ways of unpacking this problem, and it is a problem. It really is a problem, because the downside of not tackling this issue is not only soil degradation, but degradation of our water quality as well in areas, and it's no good for the reputation of our food and farming, which is such a success here in Wales—domestically in terms of what we produce, and internationally with the export market.

In the review of agricultural pollution regulations, which is now under way, and we've appointed Professor Susannah Bolton to take that work forward—she's already deep within the engagement with stakeholders on it—she’ll be looking at how the regulations work, and I'm sure that people will feed in their views and alternative ways forward as well. But, be under no mistake, and I think we'd share this, Llyr, whichever way we go forward, we need to get to the root problem of pollution of soils and pollution of water. So, I'm going to hold fire from saying one is the right way or the other, because I want the four-yearly review to take its course, and that will be going through the autumn into the early spring, and then we'll see which way it will come. I want stakeholders to engage with that as well.

I realise the criticisms of calendar, but I also realise the failures of successive different schemes up to now to tackle this poor problem that we have. And, on different weeks, your colleague Delyth would be standing there and asking me to push hard—and I know you believe this as well—on actually tackling agricultural pollution and where the failure is. So, I think we have that shared ambition behind us.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, I'm sure everyone would share that ambition, but, of course, as I've warned from the very outset with these regulations, farming to the calendar doesn't make sense. You don't need to look at the calendar; you need to look out of the window to see if the circumstances are right for emptying your slurry stores.

The situation now, as we've heard, is because of the wet weather, because the ground is so soft, and because, very often, there's a last-minute rush and there's a shortage of contractors to move this slurry, farmers have a choice to make. Either they spread it come what may, and there are implications to that—very negative, some of them—or they're going to leave it in their stores, which are then bound to be full, and possibly overflowing, during the closed period. Now, what I want to hear from you is, for those farmers who are facing that dilemma, what your advice is to them. Which of those two would you choose?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Bearing in mind what I mentioned earlier about the time we have taken and the time we have given for farmers to be ready and to take the investment opportunities to invest in slurry management, I would say to them, 'Use those opportunities, make your application, apply for it, put the slurry stores in, put the slurry management in, put the yard management in, and actually show that that is being done. And if you are having problems, then actually speak at the very earliest opportunity to NRW.' I explained in response to a previous answer some of the ways in which NRW will deal with, in a more empathetic way, those who say, 'Well, it's not through our own fault that we're not able to do this', but I think they need to demonstrate, on that case-by-case basis, that they have tried to do the very best to comply with the regulations as they currently are. For too long we've gone on, year after year, with people thinking there will never be an end point and delaying—some people, not all, because I was just saying that over 800 people have applied now for the money that we've just made available. But, too often previously, farmers have not come forward, and are now being caught out. So, we have to—you and I and others—encourage them to actually make the necessary investment and grab the money while it's available.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I've raised a concern with you and your predecessor many times in this Chamber and outwith the Chamber in terms of what's happening at Hybu Cig Cymru. There is grave concern about the culture that exists within the workplace there. You'll be aware that there is a high number of staff leaving their posts. There's a high number of staff absent from their posts. There is significant expenditure on temporary staff, and we are aware that members of the board have resigned. I've called on you in the past to intervene. I would like to repeat that call this afternoon. And if you're not willing to do so, what is your explanation to the levy payers as to why you don't feel that you need to take control of the situation?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, Hybu Cig Cymru is a sponsored organisation, but we do not have direct operational control over that organisation, and neither should we. The assurance I can give, as I've given previously here on the floor of the Senedd, is that I have met the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru, and the board—in fact, over recent weeks, indeed. My officials are regularly in contact with Hybu Cig Cymru, and I have to say, we've had the assurances. We've sought and had the assurances that the important work that Hybu Cig Cymru is delivering for the red meat sector in Wales has not been negatively impacted by any of the recent events. We will, as a Government, continue to support Hybu Cig Cymru in delivering for the red meat sector, as this has to be the absolute priority for it and for its stakeholders.

Now, there are disciplinary matters that have been alluded to. These are matters for HCC as the employer to take forward, in line with their processes and procedures. There are other allegations that have been brought forward. We have sought and received assurances from HCC that they're investigating any concerns raised by staff and that they are implementing actions in the light of the outcomes of those investigations. But, genuinely, it is not for a Cabinet Secretary to intervene in a sponsored arm's-length body and tell them how to do, operationally, what they should be doing with due process. We've sought those assurances. What they should be doing on HR matters—we've sought and had those assurances. Or, what it is certainly our responsibility to do is to make sure that that sponsored body are delivering for their stakeholders, and, again, we've sought and had those assurances from HCC. But we are very, very aware, very cognisant, of some of the concerns that are being expressed, and those people need to engage, particularly if they are stakeholders with HCC, and to make clear those concerns, and to seek the same assurances that we are seeking as Welsh Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llyr Gruffydd, do you want to ask your question on slurry as well? Another one—question 3.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Oh, yes. Sorry.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd, for your patience.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on grant schemes to support infrastructure on farms to improve slurry stores? OQ61669

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Llyr. Additional rounds of the small grants yard coverings scheme and nutrient management investment scheme have been offered this year to support farmers to improve slurry storage. Over 800 farm businesses applied for support.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

And it's very positive that 800 farms have applied for support to meet the new infrastructure demands, but, of course, the fact that 800 have applied suggests to me that there will be at least 800 farms, when the closing date comes around, that won't be able to meet the regulations' demands. You mentioned earlier that there is now a means for people to raise that concern with Natural Resources Wales. Can you confirm to me, therefore, that the 800 businesses are ones that will qualify for inclusion in the category of those who have taken 'reasonable steps', as you describe them, when you consider penalising some of those who don't meet those demands?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I think those who have applied—. Those who are in the process already and have applied previously, plus those who have applied, are clearly signalling an intent to get on with the business. Maybe this is a real move from the sector and from individual farmers to say, 'We know we need to get on with this', and I welcome that.

I repeat what I said earlier, that NRW now are recognising—and are in discussions with me as Cabinet Secretary and my officials—the difficulties that farms have faced since the regulations were introduced. They have considered the enforcement approach in these circumstances. There have been some changes identified to the cross-compliance verifiable standards, which I will bring forward some further detail on at the end of the month. And, in effect, the breaches of those slurry storage requirements, the closed periods, the required restrictions that apply following the closed periods, will be reduced where the breach is identified as prior to 1 August 2025, but this will be the case only—only—where the pre-existing regulatory storage capacity has been met and evidence of having taken reasonable steps to achieve compliance is available. And as with all of those cross-compliance requirements, any exceptional circumstances that might prevent compliance would be considered on a case-by-case basis. But, again, if any of those farmers are in doubt, contact NRW and ask them.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I ask my question in the context of your responses to James Evans and Llyr Gruffydd as well on this matter, but the issue I will return to is planning applications that have been submitted to local planning authorities for slurry stores and the backlog that many local authority planning departments have. I heard your response to James Evans in terms of NRW considering the appropriate enforcement action and taking that into account, but can I ask you what conversations you've had with colleagues in Government about issuing appropriate planning guidance or a note to local authorities to ask them to consider expediting and prioritising these applications?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Russell, and it's a valid point, but I mentioned in response to James, your colleague, earlier on that these regulations have been in place now for some time. So, we've been encouraging farmers consistently—me and my predecessors, NRW and advisers—to actually start the process, not just recently, not this year, but quite some time ago. So, I think some farmers are in the situation now where they're coming to it late and are being caught out, but there are genuine planning issues. They need to engage with the planning authorities on that, but they need to engage with NRW on a case-by-case basis, if they think they can demonstrate that they have been ahead of the game here; if they're coming to it late it might be more challenging, I have to say.

But simply to say as well, I'd be surprised if anybody in this Siambr or, indeed, within the agricultural sector would disagree that having the proper management of nutrients—nutrients are an asset as well, if we manage them properly—and the prevention of pollution is in the best interests of all the farmers currently and, indeed, future generations of farmers. So, in getting this right, we also have to have that shared ambition that we need to manage the slurry effectively. So, planning is something of an issue. I highlighted earlier on the type of timescale that local authorities are taking, but that timescale is far exceeded by the time that these regulations have been in place and that farmers have had the opportunity to move forward. So, I would strongly again encourage all of them to come forward, if they haven't already, and make sure that they're doing their slurry management.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

4. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact of fly-tipping in Vale of Clwyd? OQ61652

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Gareth. Local authority fly-tipping incident data is collected and assessed annually by Fly-tipping Action Wales. This approach helps to identify trends, understand the financial impacts of fly-tipping and it enables Fly-tipping Action Wales to target their support to local authorities. This includes taking preventive action and enhancing enforcement activity in hotspot areas.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Fly-tipping is a consistent problem in Denbighshire, but has skyrocketed since Denbighshire County Council's total breakdown in waste collection earlier this year, following their bungled roll-out of the Trolibocs recycling system. Residents across the Vale of Clwyd are noticing more waste dumped on the side of the roads and down alleyways, and it has become a consistent bugbear that people shouldn't have to live with in their communities. There have also been concerns raised over potential fly-tipping rises in Wrexham, with local authorities across Wales reducing the frequency of waste collections. We all hailed Wales's fantastic recycling rates this year, but as far as I'm aware, this data is taken only from household recycling. So, if a higher proportion of general waste is now just being dumped on highways and in residential areas, is that data a true reflection of reality?

Let us imagine walking out of our homes every day to see a big pile of black bags, old furniture, soiled mattresses and household waste. This is not what people want to see walking into work in the morning, and it can be jarring for these same people to hear our politicians praising our recycling efforts. It seems out of touch to residents in parts of my constituency. So, I'd like to know how the Welsh Government records fly-tipping activity in the Vale of Clwyd, and can you update the Senedd as to the general trend of fly-tipping in Wales? Is it getting better or worse overall, and how is the Welsh Government providing guidance to local authorities to deal with this behaviour and ensure that our communities stay clean? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Gareth. Well, fly-tipping is a perennial problem. I think we have to say very clearly from this Chamber and elsewhere to individuals involved in fly-tipping that not only is it irresponsible, but it’s a crime, it’s a criminal activity; it is never justified under any circumstances. Everyone—everyone—is responsible for ensuring their waste is disposed of legally. We will target those who choose to break the law and pollute our environment. That’s why, Gareth, we continue to support the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme operated by Natural Resources Wales. We've provided £1.2 million of funding to tackle this crime over the past three years. Just out of interest for you, the funding has allowed the team to recruit an additional enforcement officer specifically to cover north Wales, whose role is to support the local authority fly-tipping enforcement teams in Clwyd and across the region. It’s also allowed it to undertake investigations into fly-tipping incidents on NRW-managed land as well. The role has built robust relationships with local authority enforcement teams and with North Wales Police, and it continues to successfully deliver enforcement, with several prosecutions and other enforcement actions against fly-tippers. But it is also important that we focus on prevention. The duty to care programme, 'It’s your duty to care', by Fly-tipping Action Wales, highlights to people how they can check that they are using a legitimate registered waste carrier, and it also helps raise awareness amongst not just householders but tradespersons of the risks of passing waste to illegitimate disposal operators.

And just on Denbighshire, and the very proud record we have now of being second in the world, which was mentioned specifically, by the way, by visitors from across the world, from Taiwan, from Mexico, from America, who were here in Cardiff, in Sophia Gardens, yesterday, learning from the example of Wales, where we’ve taken the hard decisions and the difficult decisions, working with members of the public and local authorities and third sector and other partners to drive forward our recycling rates, which used to be horrendous and are now genuinely world-beating—. That is what Denbighshire is trying to do. Every local authority that’s gone through this has had challenges, but I would say, and we’re told, that in recent weeks over 90 per cent of rounds have now been successfully collected. They need to go further, do better, they need to overcome the issues that they’ve had, but they haven’t been alone in this, and one of the things we have done with Denbighshire is we’ve mentored them with other local authorities who've been through the same process. We will get there, but we'd really welcome your support in continuing to drive forward on this, because it is the right thing to do for those local communities to tackle waste.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to get more farmers practicing sustainable farming methods? OQ61666

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Jenny. Our ambition is for a vibrant, prosperous and sustainable farming industry. In the lead-up to the introduction of the sustainable farming scheme, the Welsh Government is already supporting farmers through Farming Connect, as well as through capital grant schemes.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. I share that ambition, and I'm amazed at how many ambassadors there are of sustainable farming. I met one of them upstairs in the Neuadd yesterday who was actively involved in increasing the number of curlews, whilst also having such improved grass that they were having to reduce the feedstuff they were giving to their cows to avoid them becoming sick. Equally, over the summer, I visited Hywel Morgan's farm in Myddfai in Carmarthenshire, where they have increased their tree cover, and controlled their water to improve the shelter for all their animals, and to enable them to stay outdoors for most of the year, reducing their stocks and increasing their income. Similarly, the economy committee went to mid Wales and saw the biggest organic farm in England and Wales last week, run by a water company with the RSPB. And all these are fantastic examples of how we can combine science and lived experience to save the world from the climate emergency, and the biodiversity. So, how can we increase the numbers who are applying for the schemes that you were mentioning earlier to James Evans and enable more people to embrace this much more effective and profitable method of farming more quickly?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Jenny, and I think you usefully shatter that false dichotomy between farming and climate resilience, or farming and biodiversity, or farming and nature. Actually, the best farmers are doing incredible work at the moment in doing all of that and quality food production as well, and sustaining our local schools and communities too, and the Welsh language. So, food production is vital, but, actually, the major risk to food production in the long term is the lack of climate resilience and the diminution of natural processes on those farm and landscape areas as well. So, we can't keep having a separate conversation about food or farming versus the environment, they're one and the same, they're dependent on each other.

Now, the SFS is going to be critical to this, the sustainable farming scheme, which we're working on intensely in the ministerial round-tables, the officials group, the carbon sequestration group, with a range of stakeholders involved in that to try and get to a conclusion where we share the objectives of what we're trying to do with genuinely sustainable farming, building on some of the work that you've alluded to already and some of the good practice that's out there, but designing a scheme that is accessible to all those farmers who want to be part of it and drive forward in that direction, so underpinned by the sustainable land management objectives that are within the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023.

We're in this transition period now as we move towards 2026. We're working intensely with all stakeholders to try and get the sustainable farming scheme right. If we do, it will provide a blueprint for the future of sustainable farming and for farming that actually builds into itself resilience as well against the traumatic weather incidents that we're seeing, that provides that shelter for livestock and for cattle and sheep on their farm that has good-quality soil, rich soil and so on. So, that's what we're trying to do, but, meanwhile, we will also continue with the Habitat Wales scheme as well, in terms of habitat land. We'll continue to work on our designated sites, going forward. So, we haven't stopped, we're keeping on going in the work that we're doing and, hopefully, by the start, then, of 2026, we'll be able to launch that new scheme that will genuinely deliver sustainable farming now and in the future.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support the sustainability of farming? OQ61645

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much, Sioned. Through Farming Connect and our agricultural support schemes, we continue to support farmers to improve the technical, financial and environmental performance of their businesses.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr. I recently visited the Bryn Môr housing development in Neath. This innovative development by Wellspring Homes uses hempcrete in its building materials, contributing to the homes being highly mould resistant and energy efficient—so important in these times of fuel poverty. A study by Aberystwyth University into the potential of industrial hemp cultivation explored its rich variety of uses, from textiles to construction materials, as well as many benefits to farming, including its ability to improve soil health, reduce erosion and sequester carbon. Overall, it's been found that this fast-growing and versatile crop can be of considerable economic and environmental benefit to Wales and our agricultural sector. The existing regulations on growing industrial hemp and lack of processing facilities in Wales limit the growth of this emerging industry, which could contribute so many answers for our farming industry and also for housing and environmental policy objectives. So, what work is the Welsh Government undertaking with partners to facilitate the growth of industrial hemp by Welsh farmers and the development of associated processing facilities? Would you consider speaking with your counterparts in Westminster to explore what regulatory changes are needed?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Sioned, thank you for that question. I think you've raised a fascinating area. I came across some of that work, and I don't think it was the same people, but, curiously, in a timber conference in Swansea, where they had a stall with hemp. Now, I knew hemp because there's a house on my own street that has been built with hemp, and you wouldn't know, you absolutely wouldn't know, but it is hemp and hempcrete. It may be the same people, I don't know, who are now planning to go on and expand.

It's a really exciting technology. I think it is worth looking at where the support could be. It's an emerging technology, and it has wider rural impacts, potentially, as well, as you rightly say, economically for land owners and farmers in the growing of hemp and the multiple uses it can have. I think we're in the foothills of this at the moment compared to other technological innovations, sustainable technological innovations, but I'm more than willing to go away and discuss with my officials and engage with UK Government as well and see what potential there is for hemp in construction as well. Meanwhile, we're also very keen—. In addition to hemp, which is emerging as an interesting novel application within building construction, we're also, of course, very interested in how we can take forward timber construction as well, with that long-term use in construction; rather than in fence posts, which rot in a few years, actually getting it deep within the fabric of our houses. But hemp is really interesting, and I'm more than happy to go away and have a look at it.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

7. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with UK Government Ministers about the impact of potential changes to inheritance tax on agricultural businesses in Wales? OQ61651

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Laura. Inheritance tax is non-devolved. In March 2023, His Majesty’s Treasury issued a consultation on environmental land management taxation, including agricultural property relief. My officials were engaged with their UK counterparts on this at that time.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, family farms are the backbone of our rural communities, contributing not only to the economy, but to the cultural fabric of our countryside. Inheritance tax relief has long been a crucial lifeline, ensuring that farms can be passed down through generations without fears of crippling tax burdens. Removing this relief would have devastating consequences, potentially forcing families to sell off their land, fragmenting farms and undermining rural economies. It would risk pushing more land into the hands of large corporations, eroding the traditions that family farms represent. Can the Minister outline what discussions he's had with the Chancellor about the future of inheritance tax relief for family farms? And will he commit to doing all he can to protect this vital support for our rural communities in Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

In all our discussions with the Treasury, we've been very focused—and my thanks, as well, to the Cabinet Secretary for finance and his predecessor—in stressing the importance of the sustainability of Welsh farming and land management. You will appreciate, though, that I cannot speculate on inheritance tax changes, although there's a lot of speculation out there at the moment; we are all awaiting the UK Government's first budget with bated breath. I take the points that you've made, Laura, but, honestly, my speculation adding to the speculation that's out there would not be of any great help.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, question 8, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the work of Natural Resources Wales? OQ61657

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks, Sam. Natural Resources Wales and its staff’s professional expertise are focused on tackling the climate, the nature and the pollution emergencies that face us. Acknowledging financial challenges, it is currently undertaking a comprehensive review of its work, recognising that delivery of its core functions and statutory duties must take priority within current budgets.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary, and, of course, already in this Chamber this afternoon, there's been a huge amount of concern raised with you on the future of NRW, as you described just then, amongst the financial challenges that they are having to face. Of course, there will be further debate this afternoon, which I expect you will be responding to as well.

As you well know, I chair the cross-party group on outdoor activities. They have raised significant concerns about the impact of the cost-cutting measures that NRW are seeking to undertake, and their particular concerns, I have written to you last week outlining those, but you'll be aware that they include access to those all-important outdoor spaces. And I know that you appreciate the difference that those spaces make to people's lives, whether it's physical health, mental health or just seeing the beauty that Wales has to offer in a safe environment. So, I was wondering, following our debate last week and, of course, with further debate this afternoon, whether you've had further chance to reflect on what I've written to you and the concerns of the outdoor activities sector here in Wales, and what thoughts you've had in terms of how they can access these spaces safely in the future, despite what may come down the track. And would you accept the offer to meet with me as the chair of that cross-party group and with those interested parties involved in the outdoor activities sector as well?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Sam, and thank you for the letter and for the invitation to meet with you. Let me say that I'm more than happy to meet with you, but the timing is important, because I don't want to interfere with the consultation that is currently ongoing with NRW.

I think the role you have as the cross-party group chairman, in marshalling the views of those who are involved in this very important sector within Wales, is crucial, and I think they've made their views very clear that they want to see these centres continuing, but it might not be in the same shape or by the same people. In fact, some of them have expressed an interest themselves in taking on board or being part of the operation of some of these centres in places like Plas y Brenin and so on. But there is a consultation that is currently under way and I have to respect that, and it's a consultation that involves the workforce and the unions as well. It doesn't only involve the aspects of visitor centres and so on; it's a wider piece than that, of course.

But one thing I do just want to make clear: in the assurances that I and my officials have sought from NRW, there is no intention that visitor centres are going to be closing; this is not the intention whatsoever. What they are doing is seeking partners that are better placed to provide, particularly, the retail and the catering services within these centres. They won't be pulling back, NRW, from the management of the sites surrounding these visitor centres—so, things like the footpaths, the cycle paths and so on—in that respect. The sites will remain open for walking and biking, play areas, car parking, toilet provision and so on. But there is a raft of possibilities that NRW are considering, including the provision of opportunities for local businesses and partnership working with social and community groups and others, on the future management of its centres. But, at the appropriate time, Sam, and I will respond to your letter, I'd be more than happy to meet with you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 3 is the topical questions. There are two topical questions today, and the first will be asked by Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what steps the Welsh Government is taking following the publication of the recommendations of the Cwm Taf Morgannwg Safeguarding Board’s report on the killing of June Fox-Roberts? TQ1196

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

We take all incidents and reviews seriously. This is a tragic case, and I expect all agencies to consider the recommendations; this includes the health board, officials and the NHS executive. The health board's mental health services are monitored carefully, and they have provided assurances that they have taken action following this incident.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for the response. I do hope that you've had the opportunity to read the report in full, and the wonderful tribute paid by June's family, which clearly shows how loved she was and how missed she is. In their own words,

'June was our family, friend, rock and safe space and we will feel this loss for the rest of our lives.'

The fact that June could still be alive today had Luke Deeley received the treatment he needed, and had his family been listened to when raising their concerns and asking authorities for help, is something both families have reflected on publicly and is something that we should all reflect on—all this devastation, all of the hurt and pain, preventable.

The report notes that a minimum of four reviews associated with mental health homicides were commissioned within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg region between 2018 and 2021, and there is a recommendation that the Welsh Government conduct a thematic review of the learning emerging from these incidents to identify common themes and associated actions. So, please, can you confirm: will this be done, will it be independent and what will be the timescale for this work?

I'm sure you share my concerns also that it has taken almost three years to publish the report, only prolonging the pain for family members, but also prolonging lessons being learnt and implemented. So, further, is the Welsh Government prepared to place health boards in special measures if it becomes evident that lessons have not been learnt from this tragic event and all other similar incidents? I'm sure that none of us in this Siambr wants to see yet another report published with similar recommendations. Apologies, whilst important, cannot ever make right the failings that have taken place, nor lessen the pain and impact when things go so tragically wrong.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Diolch, Heledd Fychan, for sharing that in such a way as well that encapsulates exactly, I think, like you said, what we all feel in this Chamber: this can never happen again and lessons must be learnt, and it is that time for reflection.

In terms of Cwm Taf Morgannwg, they are in a level 4 escalation for performance and outcomes, which does include mental health, and this means that the health board's mental health services are monitored carefully. They have provided assurances that they have taken action following this incident and we will continue to ensure that they implement the recommendations from this review.

Welsh Government has also commissioned additional assurances from all health boards related to the effective operation of adult acute in-patient mental health services, including post-discharge follow-up, risk management and care and treatment planning. The themes identified in this report for health are already priorities for our strategic programme for mental health, the mental health patient safety programme and the forthcoming mental health strategy. The learning from this and previous incidents feed into the patient safety programme.

There is a ministerial mental health safety summit in November, where health boards will update the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, myself, on progress to improve the quality and safety of care. We also continue to invest in the implementation of our strategic mental health workforce plan. Our aim is to ensure a sustainable and diverse mental health workforce across mental health and social care to underpin future improvements to improve and assess outcomes in mental health services.

When it comes to what we’re doing going forward when these incidents have been reported, as I’ve mentioned previously to you, we have now launched the single unified safeguarding review, and this is a groundbreaking new approach to deliver practice reviews relating to tragic incidents and deaths in Wales. It is the result of substantial cross-sector collaboration with partners, including safeguarding boards, community safety partnerships, the Home Office, police and crime commissioners, health and third sector organisations. It will be combining the adult practice, child practice, mental health, homicide, domestic homicide, and offensive weapon homicide reviews into one single rigorous process, and it will prevent the need for families to take part in multiple, often onerous, and traumatising reviews, as you’ve said.

The process allows multi-agency review teams to quickly identify learning, build a greater understanding of what has happened during an incident and why, and provide a clear action plan to improve services. And importantly, it will ensure that learning is adopted throughout Wales. And central to this being achieved is the development of the world-leading Wales safeguarding repository.

So, at a national level, a dedicated Welsh Government co-ordination hub supports delivery of the process, and this includes the ministerial board, which oversees the membership of key leaders across Wales and across the public sector. The board provides a critical leadership function, overseeing the safeguarding review process.

All of this is just to say that this is being taken, as I said, extremely seriously, trying to address everything that you said, trying to ensure that this never happens again and that families never have to go through these horrendous reviews. Diolch yn fawr.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I'd like to start by thanking my colleague Heledd for raising such an important topical question today. As many of you may know, I come from Llantwit Fardre. I knew June; I was in the same school as her children, and this tragic incident has had a devastating impact on everyone in the entire village.

Sadly, we see that the recommendations of the Cwm Taf Morgannwg safeguarding board report show quite clearly that the system for recording and communicating mental health issues between professionals, both within the NHS and between organisations outside of the NHS who were involved in the mental health care of Luke Deeley, were found to be lacking, and the consequences have been catastrophic for June and her family. The fact that no organisation at the time had a true picture of the mental health state of Luke Deeley absolutely shocks me. I’m sure it shocks everyone else here. And the truth is that public trust in the mental health services of Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board have been extremely low for some time.

Sadly, what is also clear, Minister, is that, whilst June’s killing may be an extremely rare incident, it could have been prevented, and the warning signs that the mental health unit in Cwm Taf Morgannwg was struggling have been known for some time. They need more resources and they need more robust mechanisms in place. With this in mind, Minister, what is the Welsh Government going to do to bring together all of those organisations involved in mental health care in Wales to allow for the sharing of data and mental health reports? And what are the time frames involved for this, because, ultimately, unless these changes are made, it’s just a matter of time before something else like this happens again? Thank you.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much, Joel James, and also for relating it back to the family and the community. As you know, I grew up in Tonteg as well, just down the road from Llantwit Fardre, and this is something that has really knocked the community of course.

I just wanted to say as well that I acknowledge everything that you said, similar to what Heledd Fychan raised, and I just want to reiterate really that in terms of the recommendations for Welsh Government, we have now ensured that the single unified safeguarding review has gone live. And at a national level, a dedicated Welsh Government co-ordination hub supports delivery of this process, and also the support network provides a critical oversight function. This includes the single unified safeguarding review ministerial board, which oversees the membership of key leaders across the public sector in Wales, with, again, the Home Office, police and crime commissioners and the domestic abuse commissioner. The board provides a critical leadership function overseeing the safeguarding review process, addressing escalated issues and harnessing cross-sector collaboration and learning opportunities. Diolch yn fawr.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I would like to start, if I may, by offering my deepest sympathies to the family of June Fox-Roberts during this very difficult time. Our thoughts are with them. Of course, what makes this issue even sadder is that the atrocity was entirely preventable, as Heledd said in her opening question. It is therefore vital that lessons are learned as soon as possible, especially to ensure that our mental health systems are much more effective and proactive in identifying and reacting to complex conditions early on, rather than leaving problems to deteriorate without being properly addressed.

As I mentioned in my contribution yesterday, historically, much more attention and resource has been devoted to that period of crisis in someone's life—that crisis in an individual's life—rather than investing at an earlier stage, upstream, as they say in English, before they reach that crisis point. And as Heledd said, the family of Luke Deeley had expressed concerns about the fact that he was going to go back into his mental health problems before reaching that point of crisis.

So, can I ask, in the wake of that, for an explanation from you as Minister about the practical steps that will be implemented to achieve this goal of ensuring that investment and early intervention will be made, and that investment at a much earlier stage? And I do note, and I was pleased to hear you say in your response, that good practice is going to be learned and shared across the health boards. Of course that's to be welcomed, but I'm afraid that, historically, that has been said time and again. Every time, there are pledges made that good practice will be learned, and we hear it now—people saying that good practice will be learned—but, obviously, it isn't. So, what confidence can people have in this Welsh Government today that you're going to stick to that pledge, and that that good practice will be shared across Wales, and that we won't therefore see events like this again?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Diolch yn fawr. As I said, in terms of the recommendations, this is though for the health board, the officials and the NHS executive to ensure that all of those recommendations are followed. We have completed the Welsh Government recommendation, and it's now my responsibility to ensure that all of those others are met, which is why, again, we're having this summit in November, and that's what I expect to see. This has not just been with Cwm Taf Morgannwg, this has now been rolled out to ensure that this is happening across all health boards.

In terms of the practical steps, we will have the mental health strategy that is coming in the new year, as well as the suicide and self-harm prevention strategies. Everything that you've mentioned there will be incorporated, as well as the 370 responses that we've had from people on the ground, or people with lived experience. I actually met with the mental health alliance advisory group this morning, and that's predominantly what we were talking about, exactly what you said: there's a lot of focus on crisis. We do have the '111 press 2', and that's something that we're really talking about in relation to that and how we can strengthen it, but also it really is about the prevention and the early intervention, and that's something that we're all very keen to see and to also direct resources towards. So, I will be updating on that specifically in the new year, but this is all part of the same mission, ultimately, that people don't have to get to a point where they are in crisis, and that a family does not have to go through this awful, tragic experience.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister. The next question will be from Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

2. What action will the Welsh Government take to ensure Welsh Water’s £24.1 million penalty is accompanied by long-term improvements in reducing pollution and leaks? TQ1197

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Delyth. I am actively engaging with Ofwat, the independent economic regulator responsible for setting financial penalties, on their regulation. I'm also engaging with Dŵr Cymru to ensure that they take swift and robust action to deliver improvements. The water companies will set further stretching targets for 2025-30.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'm grateful to you for that response. We have learned, of course, that Dŵr Cymru is going to have to pay back this money—millions—to its customers. This is not just about one company, of course; it raises important questions about the state of our infrastructure and the effect that that has on the environment.

In 2023, sewage was discharged into our waters by Dŵr Cymru for 916,000 hours, which represents around 20 per cent of the discharges over England and Wales. There is an issue here with the size of the pipes. Dŵr Cymru’s pipes are generally smaller, and the way that these discharges are measured doesn't always take that into account. But this is still a significant problem. That's why Natural Resources Wales has downgraded their performance. We need to see a change. I see that you agree with that.

This refund of £24 million will be a relief, I'm sure, to customers, but I'm sure you'd also agree with me that—because this comes at a time when we expect bills to rise in the long term because of the need for investment in our infrastructure—that relief is not going to go far. We must ensure that this investment does lead to a reduction in pollution and measures to address the problem.

So, how will the Government in Wales ensure that this penalty is not just a temporary fix and that we won't see this happening time and again? In terms of striking a balance between bill affordability and the need for investment, what role do you envisage having in ensuring that vulnerable customers do not suffer in particular?

Dŵr Cymru has recognised the need for dramatic change. We need to see transparent reporting, and also, I think, a commitment from the Government that you will monitor this carefully. To conclude, do you agree that Welsh customers should not be disadvantaged because of a problem that they did not create? We shouldn't either have to choose between affordable bills and a clean environment. Shouldn't we be looking again at how we regulate water?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Delyth. Thank you for raising the fact that this is, in some ways, not out of the blue. It is a reflection of historic underinvestment in significant parts of some antiquated infrastructure. We share the disappointment of the public here with the performance that we’ve seen from Welsh Water, as highlighted in this report, and its failure to meet its current targets. I think all of us here are clear—I’m very clear that I expect water companies in Wales to deliver effectively for customers and for the environment, and also to make sure that they keep those bills affordable as well.

We’re very committed in Welsh Government to ensuring that the water sector does fulfil those responsibilities, and does deliver for the people of Wales and for the environment. We’ve been crystal clear that the sector must do better. How do we do that? Our strategic priority statement to Ofwat and our strategic steers to water companies clearly set out those expectations for significant improvements in water company performance for the period ahead of us, 2025 to 2030.

Ofwat have stepped in here. Ofwat are indeed responsible for driving forward improvements and imposing penalties, as they’ve done, where water companies fail to meet their targets. Ofwat will now require Dŵr Cymru, Welsh Water, to publish a service commitment plan, outline when and how customers will receive that service that they expect, and how they will undertake targeted intervention and monitoring, as you rightly say, to drive forward those improvements. It’s good to see as well, whilst the calculations are going on at the moment, that customers of Welsh Water will receive a credit towards their water bills. From my perspective as Cabinet Secretary, I’ll continue to hold regular meetings with the water companies and with the regulator as well, to monitor this progress and to drive the urgent action to improve the waterways.

Just to say as well, those draft determinations were submitted by water companies for 2025 to 2030, in which there were significant uplifts in investment, and the final determination setting the bills will be made some time in December. I recognise, like you, that there are indeed difficult trade-offs between getting the level of investment that we actually need to provide that resilient water and waste water service in the future, driving performance in the way that we want to see it, and actually keeping bills affordable.

But we are also working, out of interest, with the UK Government on introducing the Water (Special Measures) Bill, which also has measures within it to clean up our waterways. Thank you, Delyth, for raising this today, and the way you’ve so clearly set it, in that it’s not simply something that has come upon us; this is a historic issue that is now being visited upon, and Ofwat have done their job properly.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I've dealt with a myriad of issues in my constituency relating to issues of flooding and sewage discharges for which Welsh Water were responsible. Of course, I share the dismay with continued pollution leaks and sewage discharges, and I think financial or even criminal penalties are necessary in response to unacceptable levels of pollution. According to Dŵr Cymru, Wales's rivers are some of the most sewage filled in the UK, and last year was the worst recorded performance. In my constituency, people are bringing this to my attention with increased regularity. Sewage discharges in the River Clwyd and along the Rhyl and Prestatyn coast are becoming more commonplace, and people should not have to put up with this. These are continued, regretful acts of harm to our environment, but it's also deeply unpleasant for residents of an area, who should not have to put up with this. I'm pleased that real-time information on sewage discharges and pollution is being offered, but people are, rightfully, becoming more angry, now that they are better informed as to just how dirty their seas and rivers are, with the situation getting worse and not better.

Having met with Welsh Water myself, I did receive reassurances that they are working on the issues in Denbighshire, at least, with the use of technology to survey infrastructure for weak links that they can pre-emptively improve or repair, and thus clean up the overall health of our sewage and water infrastructure. But this is, however, still putting a sticking plaster over the issue. Much of the infrastructure is old and needs upgrading, and the resources need to be given in order for that to be achieved. Without an upgrade of crumbling infrastructure, we are highly unlikely to see any improvement in the overall health of our waterways. So, overall, I'm disappointed with the worsening state of pollution of our waterways in Wales, and I am pleased that Welsh Water have received a penalty. But what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that they are properly resourced to upgrade failing infrastructure? And how is the Welsh Government ensuring the public are being consulted regarding water quality concerns? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Gareth. First of all, can I just pay tribute to those who campaign on this issue of water quality? Because they hold not just our, but the water companies and the regulator and everybody involved's feet firmly to the fire, and so they should as well. But also, you rightly flag up here that we cannot have a sticking-plaster solution. That's why the PR24 draft determination has a significant uplift. Some of the water companies across the UK want to go further and do even more, but there is a balance to be made then in protection of the consumers and the affordability of bills as well. But you rightly say, and I'm very pleased to hear you say it, we need that step change in investment to deal with the scale of the problem we have. I've said it before here in the Siambr, Dirprwy Lywydd: we've proven that we can do this before when we are driven to do it. The steps forward we had over recent decades in cleaning up bathing water quality was one of those instances, driven in that case, actually, by EU water quality directives that apply to us here. But we do need to clean up our rivers, in all forms of pollution. In this particular case, we absolutely need to see the investment going in.

That draft determination, which is being consulted on at the moment for both our water companies in Wales—Hafren Dyfrdwy and also Dŵr Cymru—will be finalised in December, and the balance needs to be right there, with that step change in investment and also protecting consumers as well. I think what we do share across this Chamber is the dismay at the quality of some of our significant stretches of iconic rivers, but it is worth acknowledging as well, in case we think that every river out there is something of an open running sewer, that they are not; there is really good progress in some of our rivers in Wales—in habitat, in ecological status and so on. Generally speaking, even though we've all got to do a heck of a lot more, we're in a better state than many of the rivers across the border, because of the investment we've made and the partnership working we've done. But this shows, absolutely, the role that the water companies now have to play. They've got to up their game. Our expectations of them are high, and they should be high, the same as those of our constituents.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 this afternoon is the 90-second statements, and the first is from John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Undy AFC, in my constituency of Newport East, are celebrating their success in this month's Football Association of Wales regional and national awards. Undy are a community football club, grass roots, inclusive, passionate, so it comes as no surprise to the people who know and interact with the club that they were successful in taking home the 'spirit of grass-roots football' award for their work. The club take under their wing anyone in the community, no matter what their age, ability or background, and welcome them into a supportive and inclusive group. So, congratulations to Undy AFC on this achievement, recognising, I think, the hard work and commitment of the team, volunteers, coaches, players, and, indeed, supporters in helping to make this club such an exemplar of good practice for grass-roots football here in Wales.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate Cardiff City Football Club, who celebrated the one hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary of their inaugural match this week. The club, originally known as Riverside AFC, played Barry West End on 7 October 1899 at Sophia Gardens. As many Members here will know, the club that was to become Cardiff City was formed by Bartley Wilson, a member of Riverside cricket club, with the idea of keeping the players fit during the winter, and they've gone on from strength to strength. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, they still remain the only team outside of England to have won the FA Cup. I'm delighted that, to mark the anniversary of this key moment, they're keeping the walls of Cardiff castle, as well as the Roath park lighthouse, lit blue, which just goes to show the strength of support, love and positivity that the Bluebirds have from our capital city. With this in mind, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish Cardiff City the very best for the future, and for their upcoming game against Plymouth Argyle. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank John and Joel.

5. Debate on the Petitions Committee Report, 'Freedom to thrive: Free and accessible public transport for young people'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is a debate on the Petitions Committee report, 'Freedom to thrive: Free and accessible public transport for young people'. I call on the committee chair to move the motion. Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today. The report we are debating was prompted by a petition submitted by Charlie Steven Evans. The petition closed on 18 July last year, with 381 signatures. The petition reads:

'Provide free and accessible public transport for under 18s in Wales to lower carbon emissions and boost growth. Public transport plays a pivotal role in linking Welsh children to educational, social and work opportunities. However, in light of the cost of living crisis, as well as the climate crisis, it is imperative that the Welsh Government incentivises public transport in order to lower carbon emissions and improve economic growth. The ENYA conference in 2022, at which 2 young Welsh representatives were present, called on the Welsh Government to "provide reliable and affordable public transport".'

The petitioners went on to call for the Welsh Government to

'Provide reliable, frequent, available, accessible, safe and affordable public eco-friendly transport to all areas, including rural areas.'

They noted that, in Germany, the €9 ticket scheme, which provided passengers with unlimited transport in regional and local areas, had saved 1.8 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, and led to an 80 per cent increase in train trips to rural tourist areas. They point to how unaffordable public transport is, as the cost of rail, coach and bus tickets has risen between 33 per cent and 74 per cent in the last decade, and that this is especially worrying when 23 per cent of people in Wales, and most under-18s, have no access to a car.

I know from my own engagement with stakeholders, as chair of the cross-party group on public transport, that Transport Focus and CPT were also keen to see a campaign to engage and encourage younger people. They also point to Scotland, where under-22s can currently access free bus travel. I would like to note, however, that there has been feedback from operators that the scheme has caused some issues with antisocial behaviour, and, they said, if people pay a nominal £1 fee, rather than free, it might be valued more. Where capped fares have been introduced, such as in Rhondda Cynon Taf, patronage has increased. I know the Welsh Government had hoped to explore capped fares, but the budgetary pressures made this difficult.

As the new committee Chair I would like to thank the petitioners, Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament and current and former committee members for shining a light on this important issue. It has been highlighted by a handful of different petitions, and by the Welsh Youth Parliament’s ‘Sustainable Ways’ report: there is no substitute for hearing first-hand about young people’s experiences.

As the former Chair, Jack Sargeant, points out in the report, there is a general consensus that providing free public transport for young people would allow them to thrive. Relieving cost-of-living pressures, tackling the impact of child poverty and giving easier access to education, training and employment opportunities are all part of that package. It will also help tackle congestion on our roads, realise our climate ambitions and support the recovery and growth of the public transport sector.

Learner travel was not the focus of the committee’s sessions, but the Children, Young People and Education Committee considered it as part of their inquiry into access to education for disabled young people. That committee expressed disappointment that the learner travel review had not been bolder about making legislative changes, and made recommendations relating to guidance, training and access for children with additional learning needs. Training providers have also told the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee that travel costs for apprentices starting out on the minimum wage, particularly those in rural Wales, act as a major deterrent in their career choices. They are concerned to see young people opting for higher paid but lower skilled jobs closer to home.

The Petitions Committee’s first recommendation, informed by evidence from stakeholders, was that the Welsh Government should set out a clear ambition to provide free public transport to all young people at the earliest opportunity. The Government has accepted this. However, the clear theme of the Government’s response is that the financial position makes a move to free travel impossible. The Cabinet Secretary says:

‘We have a programme for government commitment to explore extensions of the MyTravelPass for reduced-cost travel for young people. As we prepare for the introduction of franchising, we will give consideration to whether the financial outlook allows us to introduce such a scheme.’

A lot is hanging on planned reforms to bus services and the introduction of franchising. But those reforms are still some way off, with a Bill yet to be introduced. In the meantime, the Cabinet Secretary has also rejected engaging with stakeholders, and says a lot of work has already been done to look at fare schemes. I do welcome his recognition that there should be no barriers to access for young people, and that work to determine future fare structures will include considering whether the money is there for free travel for young people to be introduced ‘without delay’.

There is so much that can be gained from improving and promoting public transport here in Wales. I thank the petitioners again for bringing this really important issue to Members’ attention, and I look forward to today’s debate. Thank you.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Can I also thank the petitioner for submitting the petition? Our young people are our future, and the ability to broaden horizons is an incredibly important part of boosting the prospects of young people in Wales. Free public transport for young people has long been a policy that the Welsh Conservatives have advocated for. Sadly, public transport in Wales continues to become less and less affordable, with the cost of rail, coach and bus tickets having risen between 33 per cent and 74 percent over the last 10 years. Tthis is especially concerning as almost a quarter of our young people do not have access to a private vehicle. It's clear that if we want to support our young people to fulfil their potential, we need to be ensuring that they can broaden their horizons.

One important aspect of this debate is the issue of accessibility, and it's clear that public transport in Wales lacks that as a whole, especially in rural areas, due to chronic lack of funding. The stories of bus routes being cancelled are becoming far too familiar for many Members with constituents in rural areas, and sadly this means that opportunities for our young people are becoming fewer and fewer. It is clear that Wales desperately needs the full investment in order to drastically improve public transport here, and I hope that the Welsh Government won't settle for being short-changed on things from the UK government like HS2.

As we all know, Wales is suffering from an ageing population, and this is largely down to a vast number of young people being forced to leave to find better prospects in other areas, and you can't blame them. And I firmly believe that this Welsh Government must make Wales a more inviting place for young people, providing them with more opportunities and a greater ability to move around. Free public transport use will not solve all of the myriad of challenges that they face, however it will go some way to enable them to find better job opportunities. I thank the petitioner once again.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I had the privilege of being a member of the Petitions Committee when we took evidence on this matter and produced the report. I'd like to thank the petitioner, as others have, the witnesses, and in particular the Youth Parliament for their involvement in this subject.

As we've heard this afternoon, and as has been laid out in the report, the context for this report is stark: the cost-of-living crisis, the pandemic and nearly a decade and a half of austerity. Is there any wonder that our young people are looking for some hope? But it doesn't stop there. Our rail network suffers from chronic underinvestment. We have seen massive cuts in our bus services, and the cost of public transport continues to rise. These increasing costs and reduced services hit young people the hardest, as they often rely on public transport to access education, employment and social opportunities. There's a broad agreement across sectors that a youth travel pass would not only grant young people access to economic and educational opportunities, but also help tackle child poverty and ease cost-of-living pressures on families across Wales. A youth travel pass presents an opportunity to nurture a generation less reliant on cars, and it could eventually pay for itself by creating lifelong public transport users who will pay full fares as they grow older.

This Government promised young people a guarantee of education, employment or training as part of the manifesto commitment, yet that promise is failing, with Wales having the highest number of young people not in education, employment or training across the UK. Cabinet Secretary, the committee's second recommendation called for the Welsh Government to undertake preparatory work for introducing free public transport for young people. You rejected this recommendation and I urge you to reconsider and to carry out the baseline study. In Scotland we heard that identifying a baseline was a key challenge, but it was also essential for moving forward. Cabinet Secretary, you said that you will consider such a scheme but you won't do the groundwork necessary for a proper evaluation of a youth travel pass. This makes your promise of consideration feel hollow.

We heard from your Westminster counterparts that the HS2 railway line will likely extend to London Euston, likely bringing more consequential funding to Scotland and Northern Ireland, but not Wales it seems. We won't see the funds needed to support a youth travel pass here in Wales, will we, Cabinet Secretary? You support this despite previously stating that Wales was owed £5 billion from HS2.

Imagine what we could achieve for our young people if bus franchising was executed properly, more services made available and travel made affordable. We'd also be able to alleviate some of the challenges Wales faces with school transport and access to Welsh-medium education. If you won't listen to me, Cabinet Secretary, and you won't listen to our former Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, Sophie Howe, or the Children's Commissioner for Wales, I urge you to listen to our young people—our future generations and future voters.

The data is clear: this is a policy that young people want. We constantly encourage our youth to engage with politics and vote, yet when they present a clear policy demand to the Welsh Government, Labour's not listening. Diolch.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

There are several reasons why I support this principle today, but this afternoon I'd like to focus on two in particular. First, as Peredur said, we have to change people's habits. Psychologists say that a habit takes time to develop, and I'm sure that all of us here today know people who almost never walk anywhere and never use public transport. They jump straight in a car even when the journey is very short, or when there is a convenient option to use public transport. Why do they do this? Well, I believe that a lot of it has to do with the habits they have nurtured over the years. If someone has been driving everywhere since they were 17 years old, then it's very difficult to break the habit, even if you've moved to an area where there is better public transport. By offering free public transport to our young people, they would, through force of habit, be much more likely to continue using it in the future. This will be beneficial environmentally, economically and socially. We can turn this travel pass into a lifelong trust in public transport here in Wales.

Secondly, as Carolyn and Peter said, up to a quarter of young people in Wales don't have access to a car, and learning to drive and then running a car is extremely expensive. According to the RAC, on average, you have to spend over £2,000 on lessons before passing your driving test. Then, on average, your first car costs around £2,000 again, without considering insurance, which is usually £1,000 on top of that. I'm sure that some of you have been through this painful experience recently with your children. And we haven't even mentioned the cost of petrol and the cost of maintenance. These costs are an exceptional burden, if not impossible, for many individuals and their families. The provision of public transport for free will be a positive step forward in terms of redressing inequality and will be a support for families who are struggling at present. This report, to me, is further evidence to show that providing free public transport to our young people will be an investment in our future, as a country, a more equal and sustainable country, a country where there is an opportunity for everyone to flourish, whoever they are.

So, the response of the Government is disappointing. I do understand the financial pressure, but there is more here than economic and environmental benefits. This will ensure an opportunity for young people in Wales to have access to opportunities in education and work. As such, Cabinet Secretary, this investment will surely pay off in many ways. Thank you very much.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Young people who are supported by the GISDA charity in my constituency are campaigning for free travel passes for young people under the age of 25. I had a meeting with representatives of the group recently, and I promised to talk about their campaign and highlight it on the floor of the Senedd, and I'm taking the opportunity to do so this afternoon.

In the meeting with the GISDA representatives, they highlighted the barriers preventing young people from accessing the transport that they need. The cost of bus tickets was a huge concern at times. Paying for bus services would take half—half—of their income for the week. They also mentioned anti-social behaviour and that that was a problem on the buses occasionally too. The price of bus travel stops young people from accessing work opportunities, training, education, a full social life, and for the essentials of life, such as food shopping and medical appointments.

The 'Poverty in Arfon' report by the Bevan Foundation, which was commissioned by the former MP Hywel Williams, does highlight the cost-of-living premium in Arfon, namely a premium that means that households face housing, fuel and transport costs that are high, and puts additional pressures on low-income families, particularly in rural parts of the constituency. So, any scheme that would reduce the costs of transportation would contribute to reducing poverty in Arfon and would be of great assistance to young people particularly, and the other benefits, as have been outlined this afternoon, are clear to us all too. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank the public for raising this very important issue through a number of petitions, and especially the young people that voiced their opinions so eloquently during the committee's inquiry, and also, more broadly, the work undertaken by the Welsh Youth Parliament that's resulted in the compelling 'Sustainable Ways' report that was published this time last year. Young people, as it's been said, are our future, and we fundamentally believe in ensuring their voices and opinions are listened to. I'd like to put on record my personal thanks to all members of the Petitions Committee, under the former Chair, Jack Sargeant, who took forward these calls for change and productively summarised the position in the 'Freedom to thrive' report.

The Welsh Government deeply appreciates the pragmatic approach that the committee took in drafting its conclusions and recommendations, which recognise the challenging financial context that we are working to. It's also quite rightly calling for us as a Government to have clear ambitions for our young people. Now, I want to be clear, we fully support the conclusions of this report; we understand the crucial role that affordable, accessible and integrated public transport plays, especially for young people; and we acknowledge the social, educational and economic opportunities that come with having access to safe and reliable public transport, as well as the significant environmental benefits.

Now, we're stepping into a period of significant transformation, and with that comes opportunity. As set out in our written response to the committee, and which was obviously reiterated by First Minister's priorities, our focus for the rest of this term is about driving forward progress, and this is especially true when it comes to connecting communities, and this includes transforming our rail and bus networks for the better.

Now, our priority is to deliver the bus Bill, which will bring buses back under the control of Government, and our planned bus reform will provide us with the framework to make changes to routes, to timetables and, crucially, to fare structures. I'd like to reassure Members that a significant amount of detailed analysis has already been undertaken, looking at various fare schemes for different cohorts of people, including young people. This includes fulfilling our programme for government commitment to explore extensions of the mytravelpass scheme.

Dirprwy Lywydd, having reflected further on the committee's findings, the similar recommendation in the children's commissioner's annual report this year, and having listened to the debate today, I think there is a further piece of work to be done to help inform our programme of bus reform, so I've therefore asked my officials to work with the office of the children's commissioner to understand the motivations as well as the barriers to encouraging more young people to use public transport. This will link with the children and young people's advisory group, which is currently being established by Transport for Wales, and this work will enable us to explore opportunities with young people to introduce a fairer pricing system for young people once we have control over fare structures through our bus reform programme.

As we focus on delivering the bus Bill and acknowledge the funding restraints we continue to face, we cannot commit to free fares for young people at this time, but what I ask of you, and I ask the same of the children's commissioner, is that we do all we can to promote the current discounted and free travel available to young people, because we are taking action already. The mytravelpass scheme provides up to a third off all bus travel for 16 to 21-year-olds, and we also offer a range of free and discounted travel for young people on our rail routes across Wales. This includes, amongst many other offers, free travel for under-11s on Transport for Wales-operated rail services and free travel for under-16s if travelling with a fare-paying adult on off-peak services.

Thanks again to Jack, to Carolyn and to the committee for all their work in bringing this valuable report to the Senedd. As we progress on our journey to reforming the bus industry in Wales, the comments, the views and the evidence presented will, I can assure you, continue to the development of a fairer fare scheme as we take back control of public transport in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you. I'd like to thank Members for their contributions. Peter Fox said that young people are our futures, and agrees affordability and accessibility is an issue, particularly in rural areas.

Peredur mentioned the impact of the pandemic and austerity, especially on our young people, and how we need to invest in our future generations.

Rhys talked about changing people's habits and, by offering free public transport to young people, we are creating a habit in young people so that, hopefully, they will continue—that was also mentioned by the operators as well—and highlighted the affordability of actually owning a car—you know, we need to get them on public transport instead.

Siân Gwenllian talked about how she's been engaging with a local group—GISDA I think you said—who have been campaigning for free transport, who mentioned the cost of transport, but also the cost of living at the moment—you know, affording transport, and you're having to pay for everything else.

Addressing inequality was raised several times by many Members. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response and supporting the conclusions, and also for his ambitions going forward, and also the proposal to work with the children's commissioner to listen to young people and to their views, going forward.

I'd like to thank the Business Committee for granting us the time to debate this petition. But, most importantly, I would like to thank Elin Wyn Davies, Welsh Youth Parliament Members and other campaigners for their efforts to raise awareness of this issue and keep up the pressure to see improvements. I believe that the will is there to replace existing concessions with universal free or low-cost transport for our young people here in Wales. I am hopeful that, even in these straitened times, a way forward can be found to achieve this, sooner rather than later and, in the mean time, young people will continue to struggle. They deserve the best that can be offered to help them to thrive. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee Report, 'Sound the Alarm: The Governance of Fire and Rescue Services'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report, 'Sound the Alarm: The Governance of Fire and Rescue Services', and I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Diolch yn fawr. The review of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service by Fenella Morris KC was a difficult read for all of us—its revelations of bullying, misogyny, racism and nepotism that poisoned the organisation and were allowed to spread unchecked. This was completely at odds with social partnership, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and a suite of laws that outlaw discrimination.

We relied on the bravery of whistleblowers to call a halt to this shameful behaviour. Their willingness to speak led to Morris uncovering the true extent of the failings in the south Wales service, and has led to comparable reviews currently taking place in north Wales and mid and west Wales services. It's worth highlighting the role of ITV Cymru, who broke this story and have stuck with it, providing the oxygen of publicity to concerns that quite a few people must have been aware of but didn’t feel able to tackle. It was not the committee’s job to investigate these concerns. They will continue to come forward anonymously until and unless they are convinced that their concerns will be fairly investigated by their employer and that they won't be penalised, but will be supported in their endeavour. And this is essential to rebuilding trust in the culture of these organisations.

It's worth noting that these disturbing issues were not unique to Wales. The inspector of fire services in England, HMICFRS, found these patterns of problematic behaviour in over half the fire services in England too. No emergency service can afford to dismiss these challenges. Teamwork is just as vital as dedication and bravery when it comes to the dangerous and unpredictable job of combating fires. The committee's job was to focus on the governance failings in Welsh fire and rescue authorities that allowed this toxic culture to survive and thrive for far too long. The committee's central message to fire and rescue services in Wales and all the other stakeholders involved is that no change is not an option, and we are grateful for the Welsh Government's positive response to our report. We hope it’ll help deliver the changes needed to policies, personnel and the governance arrangements.

Back in February, Hannah Blythyn took effective action on behalf of the Government by appointing four commissioners to take on the responsibilities of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority, and we fully supported that move. There were specific concerns initially raised with us regarding the commissioners' appointment of an interim chief officer for south Wales. These were repeatedly raised with the committee during our inquiry and risked reinforcing negative perceptions and the commitment to change. But the appointment of Air Vice-Marshal Dr Fin Monahan as head of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority allays those anxieties. He brings valuable outside experience to the role, and we wish him well, as he takes office, with the challenging task of building relationships and gaining trust throughout the organisation. But lasting and sustainable change cannot rely on the appointment of one or two individuals.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Looking beyond south Wales, the committee was concerned about the defensive testimony of senior fire and rescue leaders across Wales, which at times lacked candour. This reinforced our concerns about whether senior leaders fully grasp the extent of the change needed in fire services for the years ahead. We welcome the previous Cabinet Secretary's robust ambition to make senior leadership teams more diverse and inject skills and experience from outside the fire services onto our fire and rescue authorities.

These bodies are anachronistic in the public sector in Wales because they are not accountable clearly enough to any outside body, and their membership is large and unwieldy; they all have between 24 and 28 members. Compare that, for example, to the west midlands fire authority, with 15 members for a population comparable to that of the whole of Wales. Within these large Welsh boards, there is a lack of separation between executive and scrutiny functions. The Welsh audit office has a narrower remit than for comparable public bodies, and the inspection regime currently lacks teeth. Otherwise, everything is perfect. There is a need to strengthen, particularly, the role of the chief fire adviser and inspector. He has done some valuable reviews of the capacity and capability of fire officers, but his role in examining the culture of fire services needs to be better defined and understood. The national framework needs to reflect the latest research and be more regularly updated.

Let us note that previous attempts at reform have failed. It was 10 years ago that the Williams Commission on Public Service Governance and Delivery highlighted that fire and rescue authorities do not and cannot scrutinise the services and chief officers effectively as they are ultimately and legally responsible for all decisions. We know that Welsh Government faced huge resistance to reform in the fifth Senedd. Both local authority appointees and senior fire service personnel were opposed. The committee concluded that self-interest played its part, and we know that turkeys never vote for Christmas. However, the excruciating detail in the Fenella Morris report has silenced these opponents of reform—for now.

Much of what needs to change is highlighted in the work of the Welsh Government's chief fire and rescue adviser and inspector, which—. There was a report published yesterday that helpfully highlights that, of all the thematic reviews that he has conducted, so many of his recommendations have simply been ignored. This is definitely one of the weaknesses in the system. The idea that you can hear what the latest evidence is, based on intensive research, and simply ignore it—. All these reports on the lessons to be learned from Grenfell, the role of firefighters and how they could be broadened, and the haphazard approach to training, is all summarised in the report that was published yesterday. In south Wales, it is good to realise that the commissioners are pushing ahead with these recommendations, with project groups set up by the commissioners and the interim chief fire officer, but, clearly, there is a failure of governance that is fundamental where recommendations, based on such intensive research and real-life fires, to make fire services more cost effective and safer are being ignored.

So, what should the future role of this 24-hour emergency service look like? The Welsh Government must now give serious thought to reform of these services beyond addressing the failures in current governance arrangements. The nearly 70 per cent decline in the incidence of fires across the board is testament to the success of a preventative approach, and that is to be admired, absolutely. Fires are never planned, though, so, clearly, the fire and rescue service has to remain a 24-hour emergency response service, but, like other emergency services, we have to look at the efficiency and effectiveness of the resources that are being used and how they can be used more profitably to support other emergency services.

Time is not on our side. We appreciate that the Government has accepted all of our recommendations, and we ask that, within the next 14 months, the Government produces a White Paper that reflects the consultation with all stakeholders, in line with the social partnership approach, so that clear proposals for more radical reform can be put to the electorate ahead of Senedd elections in 2026.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I would like to start by thanking my colleagues on the Equality and Social Justice Committee and the clerking team for preparing this invaluable and quite detailed report that I believe captures at a strategic level many of the issues facing fire and rescue services in Wales. That said, however, I would like to raise a few points, if I may, on the handling of this situation by the Welsh Government and commissioners, as it seems that their panicked reaction to the findings of the Morris review and their rapid removal of the chief fire officer Huw Jakeway ultimately led to an operational vacuum at the service and undoubtedly worsened the situation.

Whilst I have no doubt that the Morris review did explore the failings of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, I would argue that it did not consider much, if any, of the good practice that went on and this, I believe, helped fuel the widespread public condemnation of the fire service at the time. The announcement of Stuart Millington as interim chief fire officer—someone who had a pending employment tribunal hearing at the time—was a mistake by the commissioners and one that further fuelled this public condemnation. To put it bluntly, it went against the remit of establishing a senior management team untainted by the failings identified in the Morris report and showed, at best, an insensitivity by the commissioners and the Welsh Government to both the public and the fire service at large. Cabinet Secretary, I believe that the public and the fire service deserve an apology over the handling of this situation, and I wonder if now you would be prepared to make one.

As many here will no doubt agree, it appears to me that many of the issues raised in the Morris review could have been identified a lot earlier by the chief fire and rescue adviser and inspector if they had systematically reviewed the culture within the organisation. It is worrying that issues of culture were not considered at the time a routine part of the CFRAI's role, and blame for this rests squarely on the Welsh Government's shoulders. It is short-sightedness on the Welsh Government's part that has meant that, for far too long, issues were not being properly identified and addressed. And I'm keen to know, in terms of the chief fire and rescue adviser role, what plans are in place now to ensure that ongoing assessment of the culture in fire and rescue services now becomes part of the norm, and what other possible areas the CFRAI could now encompass.

Ultimately, Cabinet Secretary, it is clear to everyone that the fire and rescue service needs a complete overhaul. The report released yesterday about the inspection of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service into the effectiveness of its response to domestic dwelling fires, shows that considerable work needs to be done in bringing training and operational procedures up to standard. And as you have noted, Cabinet Secretary, in the Morris review, there are also governance issues regarding the sufficiency of legal structures, which are concerned with the existence of statutory powers, and issues of the governance model used in relation to the WLGA, as has been highlighted by the Chair. I would be keen to hear in your response what are your expectations in terms of overhauling the fire and rescue service and what timeline you propose.

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, I would like to pick up the issue of timeliness. The fire and rescue services in Wales have experienced an unprecedented attack for their failures, and ITV News has recently reported from a serving member of staff at the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service that little has actually changed since the Morris report. They've gone on record to say that

'everything seems to have just not moved along at all.'

'Nothing is happening, nothing is changing.'

'I’m back to the point where we were a year ago, where I'm not proud to be a firefighter anymore and I'm actively looking for new opportunities.' ITV News have also said that they have received correspondence nearly every week from former and serving staff since their first report into the situation in January this year, all stating that things haven’t changed. Accepting the recommendations of the committee report is one thing, but implementing those changes in a timely manner is quite another. It appears that the pace of the response from the Welsh Government and the commissioners needs to change, because you just can’t let dedicated fire service personnel feel like they have been forgotten, and not a priority. Thank you.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

This is a very significant and far-reaching report because it demonstrates that the basic issue here is the failure of the Welsh Government over many, many years to reform the governance of the Welsh fire and rescue services. What the report reveals is that part of the consequence of that failure was to deliver reform of its culture and practice, and the detrimental effect that has had on its staff, and it’s the staff that have really paid the price for this failure. And it’s really pretty shocking stuff. We heard pretty shocking stuff in our committee inquiry and the report rightly deserves the title 'Sound the Alarm'. We heard clear evidence that women in the fire service had been, and I quote,

'questioning for decades the need for change and supporting women'

—for decades.

Ever since the findings of the damning review into the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service by Fenella Morris KC, Plaid Cymru has called on Welsh Government to hold a review into the culture of all fire and rescue services in Wales, which we then eventually, thankfully, got during the course of the inquiry. But it’s clear that failure to get to grips with this matter earlier had a truly damaging effect on staff confidence. And it was appalling but telling, I think, of the Government’s reluctance to ensure action on this matter, that it took the efforts of ITV Wales news journalists to gather further testimony from whistleblowers, and perhaps also the evidence to our committee inquiry, to pressure the Government to take the steps it finally took.

But then we had the extraordinary and frankly regrettable situation that arose due to the appointment of Stuart Millington, by the Government-appointed commissioners at the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, as the interim chief fire officer, who at the time faced allegations of his own and had been head of safeguarding in the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, the service of which more than 35 whistleblowers had said that there was an equally unacceptable culture. So, it’s fair to say that the way this has been handled has not been conducive to ensuring staff and the public could have confidence that unacceptable behaviour had been properly and fully addressed, and the process of change properly embedded.

I want to turn specifically to the concerns we heard about the structure and effectiveness of the fire and rescue authorities in holding the Wales fire and rescue services to account. The Fire and Rescue Services Association said that many FRA members find

'the male dominance of services, and the disciplinarian regime, reassuring',

and were

'well-meaning amateurs, with no experience of driving through cultural change in any organisation, let alone an emergency service.'

From hearing evidence such as this, there is of course no wonder that we found that there is absolutely no question that reform of this ineffective and inefficient governance structure is urgently needed and long overdue. Audit Wales have recently echoed the committee’s concerns and findings in their own review, published last month, and also referenced the fact that Welsh Government failed to take forward their proposal to reform the authority’s governance structures, made in the 2018 White Paper.

So, there can be no more excuses for such an appalling lack of delivery, which has resulted in such awful consequences. We’ve seen another example today with the publishing of the Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor and Inspector for Wales’s report, which reveals that the way south Wales fire and rescue have been dealing with domestic fires has resulted in a substantial number of incidents that have placed firefighters at unnecessary risk and also resulted in avoidable property damage. Data on domestic fires like this are supplied to FRAs, but I understand there is a substantial difference in how this data is reported and scrutinised, and recommendations on concerns around this were made by the Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor and Inspector for Wales in previous reports, but were not, it seems, acted upon.

So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that the lack of progress in this area over the years has led in part to this unacceptable situation, documented in our report and others? Will you acknowledge on the record today that the Welsh Government did not respond adequately to the concerns identified in its own consultation in 2018 regarding the reform of the fire and rescue authorities?

I'm very glad that the Government has accepted in full both conclusions 3 and 4 of the report. What I'm worried about is progress. The work of reform and what it looks like is under way, we're told, and a broad consensus is emerging, but we need timescales now to drive this forward at pace, so I'd like to hear a more detailed response to the suggestions we laid out in recommendation 5 about how the Welsh Government should improve the capacity of FRA members to hold the FRSs to account. They're all good and workable suggestions, based on the evidence we took, and we're told they're being considered. Well, the time for consideration is long past. What are your conclusions, because the alarm has been sounded, not only by our report, but it's been sounding now for decades?

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

I would firstly like to thank the committee for their work and also Fenella Morris as well for her hard work in cataloguing the serious failings of the fire and rescue service here in Wales. For those of us on the committee, some of the evidence we heard was breathtaking in its total disregard for the experiences of those who were brave enough to come forward. Focusing on those serious failings of the fire and rescue service has, unfortunately, distracted from the wonderful work that countless fire safety officers throughout various services here in Wales have done and are doing. These are women and men who put so much on the line, including their lives at times, for the safety of the people of Wales, so I'd like to begin by thanking them for their courage and dedication to fire and rescue in Wales.

The committee's report paints a very grim picture of the culture within the governance of fire and rescue services. I'd like to add to what Sioned has said and also to what our Chair has said as well: powerful people, largely men, have enabled a culture where people with allegations of bullying against them have had absolutely no consequences. The committee noted that, across the organisation, over 70 per cent in senior management roles were men. The evidence shows that women have asked continuously, as Sioned has said, over a decade, for change, and change in supporting women within the service, but this has not been delivered. These are not merely statistics, but real people who say in the report that staff confidence is undermined as people's experiences are just dismissed.

This was a consequence of a culture, I'm afraid, of giving jobs to the boys, which was embedded in the fire and rescue services. Change is not merely an option, but a necessary step towards a more diverse and fair service. It's clear that a new way of doing things is needed from now. Too often, I, like many others, have been left disappointed by the Welsh Government's response to issues of fire safety and the slow pace at which they bring about meaningful change for the people in Wales. The Government mention the pressing need for change in the light of the Grenfell disaster, but that was seven years ago, and we are left with inaction and delays. So, will the Government please give an indication as to whether they have a timeline as to when the new governance arrangements will be in place, so that we can finally put an end to the misogynistic, sexist and racist culture within the fire service? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I'd like to thank the committee for its work.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I'll start by saying that I'm going to reflect on where next rather than on what's happened, because I feel within my role now that it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do that. But I very much welcome the work of the committee, and I have continued to follow it very closely. I think Members have already said that it's absolutely right that there can't be a question of no change, it's what does that change look like, and I just wanted to offer some personal reflections on what I think that might look like, but also very much the role for this place, for partners and for the communities that our services serve as well.

I think it takes three aspects, so first that's the form. So, we talk about governance, how that governance needs to change, how it needs to better reflect communities, how it needs better expertise and accountability, and I think it also needs to look at the size and the footprint of some of those authorities as well. It's also about the function. We've talked about the broadening role of firefighters and there is certainly the capacity to do that. When I was privileged enough to meet a new group of recruits in north Wales on a site in Rhyl, I talked to them about the possibilities and what that might look like and they were enthusiastic about that change. I think others within the service, who may have been there for longer, owe it to them and the sustainability of the service to embrace that change as well, and to bring it forward. The other thing is around funding. I think we need to look at funding. There's a levy on local authorities. It's not accountable and I think it's rather antiquated as well, and I think the way they are funded will reflect what form and function they take in the future.

Llywydd, I want to also, again, on the record, pay my heartfelt thanks and tribute to those who came forward to raise things that happened to them, very difficult things. We all know that that isn't an easy thing to do and it shouldn't have taken them to do that for this report to happen and for action to take place. And we not only owe it to them, this change within the fire service, but there are lessons that can be learned throughout public services and more broadly for public life in Wales too, and I'd actually like to see some of those lessons applied right across our public services and the public sector in Wales.

Finally, I would like to join Jane Dodds and others in paying tribute to those dedicated firefighters who serve our communities and put themselves in harm's way, when the rest of us would run away from them. I had a taster once myself. You get to experience some things in Government, challenging times, of course, but also you have the privilege to experience things you wouldn't do otherwise. I remember, with clarity, when I had the opportunity to go into a training centre with the full kit on, including breathing apparatus, to a simulation of how you would put out a fire, and I actually struggled to get back up afterwards, the kit was so heavy and you couldn't see a thing. So, the immense skill and talent and dedication that is there. But I think for that service to sustain itself, as Jane Dodds said, we need to change in a way that actually includes diversity, not just in terms of who is serving in that service, but the role they provide in serving our communities as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

May I start by thanking the committee for their work? I'd also like to thank the ITV journalists for the work they did in digging up the truth here, and also I'd like to thank those staff and union officials within the fire and rescue service for their willingness to speak to me, and to speak very openly and honestly about their experiences.

This report doesn't pull any punches. It has highlighted issues of grave concern, and it offers positive ways forward to ensure that appropriate standards are restored to the governance of the fire service.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The issues laid bare in this report aren't new issues. There has been a failure on the part of Welsh Government to act since concerns around the governance of the fire and rescue service were first exposed by Audit Wales back in 2018. And as my colleague Sioned Williams said, concerns have been raised for years before that.

In April, I raised with the previous First Minister matters relating to a different report, one commissioned by the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service into the behaviour of Stuart Millington, who had just been appointed the interim chief fire officer at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in February. That report concluded that there was evidence to support a case against Stuart Millington that may amount to bullying, harassment and discrimination, or harassment on the grounds of trade union activity. A report was presented to north Wales's chief fire officer, Dawn Docx, in October last year—almost a year ago—and four months before Mr Millington was promoted by Welsh Government-appointed commissioners to the interim position. Now, given that the report had also been shared with Welsh Government, I'd like to ask today: is the Cabinet Secretary satisfied that its findings were known to the commissioners prior to Mr Millington's appointment, and if not, what measures will she now take to ensure that all relevant information will be made available when similar appointments are made in future?

On matters arising from this piece of work by the committee, there have been many demands on these benches for Welsh Government to commission an independent review into the fire services in north, mid and west Wales, too. We're told, and in effect, there are now going to be investigations, but I'd also like to ask how confident the Cabinet Secretary is that these are genuinely comprehensive independent reviews that will satisfy those who have concerns within the fire service that the truth will come to light. Will the Cabinet Secretary explain the apparent inconsistency in approach whereby only a three-year time period is being investigated in those investigations, when a seven-year period was investigated for the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service? I'm sure she'd agree that cutting corners just can't be something that happens when we try to unearth the truth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Finally, and this, possibly, is what concerns me most, despite the inquiry and the damning report into the service in south Wales, the staff within that service continue to say that they see few changes being implemented. The alarm has been ringing very loudly, as this report has stated, but the evidence isn't clear, still, that chiefs within the service are listening. I would also like the Cabinet Secretary to tell us in the strongest possible terms that any effort to persecute firefighters for ringing that alarm, for blowing the whistle, would be entirely unacceptable and unjust. To conclude, as this report highlights, the fire service has a committed workforce who work tirelessly to keep their communities safe; the least they should expect is a work culture that is safe for them too.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd like to begin by echoing some of the key points raised by my colleagues Sioned Williams and Rhun ap Iorwerth: there's absolutely no place for such behaviour in Welsh society, especially within our public services, including the fire and rescue service. It's vital that the recommendations from recent reports are implemented swiftly to prevent further harm to victims and the wider public.

As we await the outcomes of two additional cultural reviews in the other fire services in Wales, clarity is needed on the progress being made with the recommendations from the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service review. What concrete actions have been taken so far and how are these changes being tracked to ensure that they are making a real difference?

Additionally, we've heard about the ongoing reforms to the governance structures within the fire authorities. It's important to understand how these reforms are being communicated and implemented, particularly with the firefighters on the front line. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that these vital public servants are part of this journey towards reform?

Finally, I'd like to hear more about the Welsh Government's broader vision for the three fire services in Wales. What long-term changes are planned to ensure that these services are equipped to serve our communities with the highest standards of integrity and safety? It deeply concerns and saddens me to hear of the ongoing complaints and cultural issues. I urge the Welsh Government to take decisive action now so that we aren't facing the same issues again a year from now. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Housing, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank all Members today for their contributions to this really important debate and thank the committee for its thoughtful and important report. We have already indicated in our formal response that we accept all of the committee's recommendations. I, too, as other Members here today have said, would like to pay tribute to those who have come forward. As the Chair said, it's essential to rebuild trust.

When we appointed commissioners to oversee South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in February, it was not just because bullying, harassment and discrimination were evident in that organisation; it was because those charged with leadership and governance had not addressed the problem. Fenella Morris KC found significant evidence of mismanagement and bad practice at all levels, which allowed unacceptable behaviour to go unchallenged.

Underlying that is a widespread sense that governance arrangements in the sector need urgent reform. Fire and rescue authorities may have had too many members to allow for clear decision making, and may lack effective internal scrutiny. It's challenging for members to lead the service and hold senior managers to account on what are often complex technical issues. Nor is there proper accountability to any other tier of Government, or the electorate, especially on financial matters. In those circumstances, it's unsurprising that it's very difficult to achieve assurance of effective management and culture within services.

I'm pleased that the committee calls for reform, as did Audit Wales in its report last month. I was also pleased that the chairs of our other two fire and rescue authorities recognised the need for change in their evidence to the committee. Previous attempts at reform have floundered in the face of strong opposition arguments that the current system worked well and that no change was needed. Events in south Wales have proved that this is not so. I'd like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to Hannah Blythyn and Julie James for the work they've done in this area.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

There have been further developments since the committee reported. In particular, earlier this week, the chief fire and rescue adviser published an inspection report raising serious concerns about the effectiveness with which South Wales Fire and Rescue Service fights dwelling fires. Those are serious matters. But I want to be clear that they are not confined to South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, nor do they imply any criticism of front-line firefighters, who continue to do their upmost to keep people safe. They are grounded in the tactics adopted to fight dwelling fires by fire and rescue services across the UK. I expect all three fire and rescue services across Wales to act urgently on these findings, and I will be raising this issue with my counterparts in the UK and other devolved Governments too. It's certainly not about cutting any corners.

In terms of the progress that we have made in this area—and I'd like to say 'thank you' to the commissioners who are doing work in this area—eight months in, they are making progress, but the commissioners and the Welsh Government are under absolutely no illusion this is a difficult task, and it will take time to achieve the change that's needed in South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. The commissioners are focusing on putting in place the foundations that will support long-term and sustainable improvement. These include restructuring and strengthening the leadership team in South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, through fair and open competition, and involving staff and stakeholders in that process. The commissioners are also resetting the relationship with staff and unions, including making improvements to staff engagement and communication processes, and are putting in place a robust programme for implementing long-term change.

Some of the work being undertaken may not always result in immediate and visible change, although the commissioners have set a clear early marker for their overall support for female employees, introducing a policy of 52 weeks of maternity leave at full pay in March. This is far more generous than the provision set out in the joint UK-wide pay agreement. The commissioners have also already agreed a new policy on false alarm attendances—one of their key terms of reference. Training is under way and a new policy will be implemented from January 2025.

But challenges do remain. I have listened to what Members and others have said today, and will continue to do so. In terms of the key points around reform of FRA governance, I can assure the Chamber today that I am committed to reforming FRA governance as soon as possible. The Welsh Government has already begun engaging with local authorities, former South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority members and commissioners, and the other two FRAs, and a broad consensus about the need for governance reform is emerging. I intend to develop proposals for full public consultation in the new year, following further engagement with relevant stakeholders. I'll take on board the views of both the committee and the recent Audit Wales recommendations on FRA membership, and member support, in my reform proposals.

Reform has to happen, inaction is not an option, and I'm clear, but it has to happen in partnership if it's to be sustained and successful. And it needs to happen soon. We need a new effective governance system to resume control from the commissioners when the intervention comes to an end, and we need the same system across Wales to ensure the service has the good governance and clear leadership that it deserves. We have extensive powers to change the governance arrangements by amending the combination Orders that established the three current FRAs in 1995, and that's where my focus will be. Although if we need to use primary legislation in the longer term, then we will consider that. I hope to bring proposals for reform early in the new year.

In closing, I would like to reiterate my thanks to the committee and to the Members who've contributed today. I will of course keep the Senedd fully informed of developments. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I thank all Members for their contributions. Whilst many Members were looking backwards and being concerned about the way in which the commissioners appointed the interim chief officer for South Wales—this was mentioned by Joel James, Sioned Williams and by Jane Dodds—I think we really do have to—and, I believe, Rhun ap Iorwerth—look forward now. Because we really do need to get on with this. I very much welcome the Cabinet Secretary to her post, because she's taken on a very chunky piece of work here, and one that requires you to both engage with all the partners, otherwise we'll simply have a rerun of a ‘too difficult to do’ situation where everybody's opposed to what the Government is proposing.

But also, we absolutely have to have change. I think the one thing that I was concerned about in the Minister's remarks is that we ‘may’ have too many members on boards, when we clearly do have too many members on boards. I'm very impressed by the west midlands fire and rescue authority, which only has 15 members, but clearly is engaged in the process of change. Because this is not unique to South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. This is endemic across a male-dominated industry that has had difficulty modernising its processes. But equally, it's had difficulty getting to grips with the governance of the organisation.

It was great to hear from Hannah Blythyn, because obviously you took the robust action on behalf of the Government in intervening and saying enough was enough—we can't go on like this. But I think that you were saying that local authorities can't question the size of the levy. I would suggest that it doesn't question the size of the levy. And there's a complete disconnect between the people appointed to represent each of the local authorities in the area in question, and any referral back. Who do they report back to? Who are they questioned by? Nobody in their own local authority, it would appear. And nobody is saying, ‘Why do you need so much money? Because the poor old tax base is going to have to shell out more money in its council tax because you're asking for more. And what is the worth of your request for more money as opposed to social services or education or any other thing that local authorities have to deal with?’

I think this is an early win for the Cabinet Secretary here. We definitely have too many members. And having too many members makes it unwieldy and very difficult to actually implement the changes that are required, which go well beyond simply tinkering with the governance arrangements.

I think that the report published yesterday by the adviser and inspector is another thing that you could do quite quickly. It may require a short piece of legislation, but possibly it could be done by ministerial order. Because if Estyn says something's got to change, it changes. Schools can't pick and mix what they recommend, and what the inspector has done in looking at how we could improve outcomes on domestic fires—it's a forensic look at it, looking at every single incident of a serious fire that's taken place over a three-year period. So, I cannot see under what circumstances any fire authority can be saying, 'This has nothing to do with us', because by doing so, they are putting their own staff at risk, as well as the public who may have the misfortune to be involved in a fire.

I welcome the interventions from Peredur and from Rhun ap Iorwerth, because we really all need to be giving serious consideration to this, because we were disappointed that we didn't receive more evidence on the question of what good governance of this sector looks like. It was clear from the evidence we received from the Welsh ambulance service that they feel they've got enough of their own problems; they didn't want to be taking on all of the headaches that are evident in the fire and rescue service. But how, then, are we going to use all the spare capacity that is writ large in the chief inspector's report? And some of the things that he says in the report that was published yesterday should give cause for concern. The current shift system, dating back to the 1970s, does not allow sufficient time for training, exercising and risk-reduction activities. Fifty per cent of all available time is allocated to meal breaks, private study and rest periods, with the latter accounting for 14 hours of the available 48 hours worked in an eight-day reference period. And it's highly inefficient if firefighters sleep for the full rest period at the expense of training and risk-reduction activities. This was made in a previous report—. Sioned.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Jenny. I just would like to emphasise that where we're talking about changes in terms and conditions with these reforms—[Inaudible.]—pointed out need to happen, because of bad practice and out-of-date practices, that that should be done, of course, in full social partnership with the Fire Brigades Union.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It does indeed, but the emphasis that we had from the FBU was that they recognise that the changing role of the fire and rescue service has to be seen for the next 20 or 30-year period, and we need to sit down immediately with these people and point out—the people who represent the workforce—that the current system is putting their members at risk by not doing sufficient training, by not implementing the latest research and knowledge about how better to deal with fires.

So, there's a great deal that needs to be done, and we have to see a White Paper by the end of this year if we're going to have legislative proposals to put to the electorate for the election in 2026. This is something we all have to own. It's no use blaming the Welsh Government for what it might not have done in the fifth Senedd. We have to own this collectively now—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

—as we have a duty towards the public to ensure that our fire services are effective in keeping people safe.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on petition P-06-1474, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7 is a debate on petition P-06-1474, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres'. And I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce the debate today. The petition was submitted by Gareth Jones and closed on 9 September, with 13,247 signatures. The petition reads: 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres'.

'Closure of these centres runs contrary to the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act 2015...The closure of these visitor centres would have a far-reaching negative impact on the local economy, environment, and community well-being.'

The committee fast-tracked consideration of this petition at the request of the petitioners, because they believe the Natural Resources Wales board was due to meet in September to consider budget cuts for the next financial year, and these cuts would translate into significant job losses and scaling back of services. They're a matter of concern to Members right across this Chamber, and I'm pleased that the Business Committee agreed to our request for an early debate.

This is the second petition the committee has considered on closure of visitor centres. An earlier petition by Kim Williams, relating solely to the fate of Ynyslas visitor centre, closed in June this year, having gathered 2,422 signatures. And in response to that petition, the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs noted that

'no organisations are exempt from the extremely tough budgetary conversations and decisions that will have to be made.'

And the Cabinet Secretary pointed out that these were ultimately decisions for the NRW board, and the chief executive of NRW subsequently wrote to the committee to clarify that they were unequivocal about conservation of the reserves themselves and maintaining public access to them. But Clare Pillman has also told the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee that NRW needed to consider all options to reduce its grant in aid staff budget by £13 million. Looking at viable alternatives for running cafe and retail facilities at the visitor centres is understandably part of that exercise.

When the current petition was considered on 16 September, the committee noted correspondence co-signed by Cycling UK, Beicio Cymru, the UK MTB Trail Alliance, Mountain Bike Wales and the Wales Adventure Tourism Organisation, along with 90 other groups, organisations and businesses. These organisations are extremely concerned about the impact of changes to visitor centre operations on the mountain bike and outdoor sector. This is not the first Petitions Committee debate this term that focuses on the economic and social impact of budget cuts and will certainly not be the last. It is important that we address public concerns and that we assure there is adequate engagement with local communities and interested parties in finding creative solutions to maintaining reserve facilities without any closures. Continuity is really important.

NRW's response explains again that it is looking for partners to take on the cafe and retail functions, and further engagement is planned locally to find bespoke solutions for each of the sites. The letter also explains that visitor centre staff are not responsible for managing the land in and around the centres, so are not responsible for trail and access management. It is important to understand the rationale for NRW's 'Case for Change' process and remember that they are seeking to mitigate job losses for staff, as part of a consultation process with trade unions. As NRW have pointed out, they have statutory duties to fulfil under the current financial pressures, and the most recent letter from Clare Pillman concedes that they are having to make difficult decisions.

I was pleased to visit Ynyslas myself last weekend to see how the centre operates and understand more about the petitioner's concerns. They told me that NRW have not been open to discussion about meaningful solutions, which they have in abundance; they have just been defensive. It is an exceptional education and resource centre visited by 3,000 students, 50 schools and universities, many from urban areas, connecting to nature and learning about ecosystems, biodiversity and climate change for the first time in their lives. It's surrounded by sand dunes, which are home to a diverse range of species as well as an extensive beach. There is a sunken forest, which shows how climate change is impacting. I met with many visitors who use the centre for mental health and well-being. There are caravan parks and owner-occupied vans nearby who use and rely on the centre as a visitor attraction. It adds significantly to the local economy as an attraction, with 250,000 visitors per annum—that's just one visitor centre. The centre will still be used as an office for the warden but not open to the public, which makes no sense. There are many people parking on the beach, willing to pay the £4 charge, but nobody was collecting it. The staff who work in the visitor centre do not just work in the small shop; they advise people about safety of currents, awareness of ground-nesting birds and the ecology, collect the numerous dog-poo bags, check the area, they've dealt with poaching, and will collect the car park money, when resourced.

The language used to describe the closure varies between 'massive', 'detrimental', 'devastating', 'huge' and 'dangerous'. I thank the petitioners for bringing this important issue to Members' attention, and I look forward to today's debate. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

In congratulating the new Chairman, Carolyn, can I just say, that was an excellent contribution? I was agreeing along with you. I would secondly like to endorse your comments about thanking the petitioners who brought this to our Senedd.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

These kinds of closures and things should not be taken lightly. We are aware of the struggling finances of NRW, but I sometimes have to look at some of their thought processes in terms of health and well-being for people and the information aspects to all this, and in some cases, where you've just said, Chairman, about potential life-saving advice that they're giving about the currents.

Now, the revelation that NRW needs to make a £13 million saving over the next two years is alarming, so one has to question whether the Welsh Government has got all its spending priorities right. We know from our meeting only last week that there's talk of them maybe not maintaining the MTB trails for mountain biking, or other outdoor recreation centres, and, again, I just think that if you were to speak to the average taxpayer, they would say, 'Well, these are the kinds of things we actually want our tax spent on.' Whilst I'm also appreciative of the statutory functions that NRW have, they have to balance this, I think, in the main.

So, it's disheartening to see that 260 jobs are potentially going to be lost, with NRW shifting its responsibilities away from the catering and retail services at visitor centres. But what you've just said earlier about the wardens still being there and it not being open, as a businesswoman, I just don't get that at all.

Additionally, to suggest that these should be run by external organisations completely overlooks the commitment and connection that NRW has built with the local community over the years. It was really disheartening, Chair, to hear from you that they feel that they've not had part of this consultation or even been included in any discussions. It is not a good look, that, for the organisation itself. Visitors rely on these amenities for a full experience, and without them, the centres risk becoming less accessible, less appealing, and as such will be subject to a steady decline in use, and then people can say, 'Well, it was hardly being used, blah blah blah.'

I myself have been speaking with different groups and organisations that rely on these centres—the UK MTB Trail Alliance, whose 500 km of mountain bike trails across Wales depend on these facilities, and they are deeply concerned that these cuts will mark the beginning of a steady decline that will see their trails unmaintained and left to volunteers and community groups to pick up the pieces, and it could render those trails unsustainable. These organisations rightly emphasise that these facilities support the trails, attracting visitors for outdoor activity and sustaining investment in our local tourism economy. Indeed, around 100,000 people visit the Coed y Brenin bike centre attraction in Gwynedd each year. How NRW cannot operate a shop and cafe at that location, with such great footfall, really asks a lot of questions for me about the business acumen within NRW themselves.

Similarly, Ynyslas attracts roughly 400,000 people a year, which is more than enough customers to make ends meet. The business model needs reviewing rather than deciding to close these things. NRW should publish the accounts for the centres, which apparently show an average loss of £50,000 a year. Honestly, if you were to actually talk to some business groups or other organisations or individual business owners, I'm sure that they would be able to have a look and maybe put NRW on the right footing. But they should publish the accounts.

Similarly, the Nant yr Arian centre is famous for the daily feeding of red kites. In fact, it is in the top 10 per cent of places to visit in the world, according to TripAdvisor. All this just makes no sense to me. How NRW cannot embrace the amazing opportunity that brings to pull in revenue is baffling. It highlights again some seriously structural and poor business decisions within NRW itself. I call on the chief executive, Clare Pillman, to have another look at this and to report back to us as a Senedd.

The ongoing consultation and the opportunity for public meetings are welcomed, but the focus should be on finding sustainable funding solutions and alternative staffing options, not making cuts that will diminish the value of these treasured spaces. The future of these centres must be secured for the benefit of all, and I urge NRW to take a stand, listen to what the petitioners are saying, listen to what your Members of the Senedd are saying, and actually concentrate on spending priorities that really matter to our local communities. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Janet. Thank you. Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. As a Member of the Senedd who represents these three centres in Mid and West Wales, I want to very much welcome this petition. I'm very pleased to see that more than 13,000 people have signed the petition, which shows the popularity and appreciation of these centres, not only by visitors and users, but also the local communities. Now, I know that Mabon ap Gwynfor will mention Coed y Brenin in Meirionnydd specifically, and the wonderful provision there, in a moment or two, but I just want to focus now on the two other centres, namely Bwlch Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas in Ceredigion. As the outpouring of anger at the possibility of the closure of these centres has shown, these are not normal centres. Both sites have evolved impressively over recent years, with the help of European funding, to offer experiences and valuable services for both the local community and visitors.

Now, we know that tourism contributes millions of pounds every year to the economy of Ceredigion and west Wales. Indeed, according to data from Mid Wales Tourism, the annual value of the three sites together to the local economy is about £37 million. Now, let's think for moment about the message and the optics of the decision to close these centres has in respect of providing the warm Welsh welcome that we’re famous for. As has already been highlighted this afternoon, between them, the three centres welcome about 750,000 visitors every year—cyclists, walkers or those who just want to have a more relaxed visit. There is no doubt that their closure will be a blow to the local economy, in a wider context of a contraction in rural services. Certainly, it is a blow and a half, never mind the staffing losses, of course.

As has already been stated, as frustrating as this decision itself is the way that NRW has gone about the consultation process and discussion with the local communities. So, while I share the view expressed in this petition that these centres should remain open, it is essential in the meantime that NRW does consider all options for their future. It is now known that various local enterprises have shown an interest in adopting these centres and managing them as some kind of co-operative enterprises, and that's to be greatly welcomed. But I am very concerned that inflexible bureaucracy could prevent that from happening; if NRW, for example, delays the process for too long, or mothballs these centres, we will then see that local interest decline. So, this is an opportunity to have that conversation with those who have an interest locally in taking on these centres.

So, could I, therefore, encourage you, Minister, to seriously consider the strength of support that exists for keeping these centres open and, most importantly, to press NRW that they consider every single option for the future of these centres in order to ensure that they stay open forever, as an important economic resource for the area and as a very important leisure option for people traveling there from afar too? Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Carolyn, for presenting this debate and opening the debate, and congratulations on your appointment, and good luck.

I am going to focus specifically on Coed y Brenin. Of course, Coed y Brenin is the birthplace of downhill mountain biking on a European level, possibly. That's where people go for downhill mountain biking, for mountain biking generally. People go walking and running and enjoy the glory of Coed y Brenin. And of course, because Coed y Brenin was the first of its kind, that place has a brand that is well-known across the globe, if truth be told, in the mountain biking sector. And the protest held at Coed y Brenin on Saturday was testament to the love and warmth for the place. There were hundreds of people there, and I had the privilege of speaking to people who came there from Southampton, from Leicester, Nottingham, and all sorts of other places across England, to support Coed y Brenin.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

It's a shame that the Government hasn't carried out a study of the economic value of downhill mountain biking. We know that Scotland conducted such a study, and it mentions that downhill mountain biking contributes £150 million to the Scottish economy. There is one study that suggests that, of the number of visitors coming to Wales, 10 per cent of them do come because of mountain biking. And we know, as Cefin just mentioned, that these three centres, including Coed y Brenin, do attract tens of millions of pounds into the local economy. So, it is clear that Coed y Brenin and the other two centres are important attractions, and not only in terms of the mountain biking, but that one other central thing, the visitor centre, which ensures that people have the necessary provision when they arrive at Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas.

Now, I know that the Minister, or the Deputy First Minister, has mentioned in last week's debate that the intention wasn't to close these centres, but the outcome of what will happen is that they will close. Indeed, I fear that the visitor centre at Coed y Brenin will close before Christmas, if we continue at our current rate, because people know that it's going to be closing by April or May, so the workforce currently there are looking for alternative employment, and the place will have to close as a result of that.

Now, when I was at a public debate, a public meeting with Natural Resources Wales back in February, it was said that this was a consultation and that nothing would happen for two or three years. Now, they are looking to make savings of £1.2 million in this financial year, which has led to this crisis. So, there's a question to be asked: how have we found ourselves in this position, where they have to make savings of £13 million with £1.2 million of those savings in these three centres? Why have they been allowed to get to that position?

There's talk that they are going to put it out to tender, but that won't happen until May, and we have a cliff edge, don't we, then, where the workforce will have gone by April, and, if nobody has taken the place over, despite that there will be a tender, the place will have to close before someone else can actually come to reopen it, possibly in two years' time. That isn't good enough. Once the place has closed, it will be more difficult to reopen. The brand will have lost its value.

Now, the truth is, too, that if the Welsh Government had kept its word—or rather, Welsh Labour—and adopted legislation giving a community right to buy, then this wouldn't have happened. Local organisations could have made that application to buy. But, unfortunately, the Labour Party didn't keep to its manifesto pledges, in two manifestos, and we are in this position where the local community isn't given priority.

I also want to refer to one other thing that Rhys Llywelyn, the chair of Caru Coed y Brenin said. It appears that something has gone missing in translation, because in English we refer to Natural Resources Wales, and, in Welsh, it's Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru. 'Resource', 'adnodd', is something that can be exploited, that doesn't have as much value; it can be changed and adapted and traded. 'Cyfoeth' or 'wealth' means something very different, something that belongs to us. It's our own natural wealth. The people of Coed y Brenin, and the people of that area, have made Coed y Brenin what it is, and Coed y Brenin should remain in local ownership.

So, my final plea is: we need £1.2 million for NRW to cover this period. Will the Government, will the Deputy First Minister, consider providing that £1.2 million to NRW, either as a loan, or a gift, or some other way, in order to tide them over for this period, so that we can retain those centres and keep them open so that the staff don't leave and so that the centre can operate and then there's an opportunity for community businesses to come together and to take ownership over the next year? And will the Deputy First Minister meet with me—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Mabon, you must conclude now.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

—and local representatives to discuss that option, please? Thank you for your patience.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I just wanted to briefly raise a few issues, because, clearly, we rely on NRW to do things that only they can do. So, the conservation work, the inspection and enforcement of pollution incidents, the flood management, increasing the number of trees planted, and the right tree in the right place—all these things are absolutely vital. But we really don't need them to be operators of visitor centres, and it seems to me to be entirely sensible that they're thinking, 'What is it we don't need to do in order to concentrate on the things we must do?'

So, I can see that they might want to be involved in capacity building the expertise of any new operator to ensure that they know about the flora and fauna in the area, but, during the economy committee's visit to mid Wales and discussions with tourism businesses last week, they reported that they didn't think that NRW was the best fit for running visitor centres based on their examination of NRW's accounts. They're commercial operators, so they probably have a good idea about that. But they thought it would be perfectly possible for another organisation to run these three centres profitably. That's what we want, isn't it, so that this continues to be the tourism offer that's available to visitors.

They said that other local organisations had expressed an interest in taking on these centres, but NRW was refusing to talk to them. And this was mentioned by Carolyn Thomas in her initial contribution. So, clearly—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Jenny, will you take an intervention from Janet Finch-Saunders?

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Yes, fine.