Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 25 September 2024

275 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the local economy in Mid and West Wales? OQ61563

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Our plan for supporting the economy across Wales is set out in our economic mission, namely ensuring a just transition to a green and productive economy, a platform for young people, fair work, skills and success, stronger partnerships for stronger regions, and the everyday economy and investing for growth.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. I've received recently correspondence from concerned constituents regarding the announcement of the closure of the Lloyd's Bank branch in Brecon early next year. And just like many other towns, other banks have closed, including HSBC and Barclays, in that area, leaving many constituents with a decreasing number of options to have the face-to-face interaction they would like from their bank. And that's particularly an issue for customers in rural areas who are unable to travel to a remaining branch. I do appreciate that banking is not a devolved issue and that this is a commercial decision taken by this bank and others. However, I do believe that you and your colleagues are committed to improving financial inclusion for our constituents. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that the closure of branches can have an impact on that local economy in towns like Brecon, which rely on attracting people to their high streets?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful to Joyce Watson for raising this important issue this afternoon. As she rightly recognises, it's not a devolved issue, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue that the Welsh Government isn't concerned about. And, indeed, we recently made our response to the Financial Conduct Authority's consultation on access to cash and, in that, we highlighted significant concerns about branch closures and the pace, at the moment, of the banking hub roll-outs, which we want to see increase significantly.

I do want to draw colleagues' attention to Link, which has been tasked with assessing the need for new banking services, and they do that following every bank closure that is announced, and they look at where the nearest bank is and so on, and then they do go on to make recommendations as to where those hubs should be. So, so far, they've identified a need for 11 banking hubs in Wales, including in the region that Joyce Watson represents, for example, in Welshpool. But I would encourage all colleagues to engage with Link if they have particular communities, such as Brecon, which they're particularly concerned about as being not well-served by the banking industry.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, one of the issues that I believe prevents growth in parts of mid Wales is the lack of commercial properties that are available for businesses to expand and move into. Some of these businesses have existed for many years and want to upscale and move to larger premises, and others are relatively new businesses that are struggling to find premises, particularly in the Newtown and Welshpool areas. So, this, I'd suggest, is a good problem, but one that I really do think needs to be resolved and supported by the Government. It's an issue that I've raised with some of your predecessors as well. One such company I visited over the summer, called Purus Energy. They specialise in manufacturing and supplying their own solar panel systems for properties that are unable to be connected to the grid. They really want to expand and they're working out of a largeish shed, if you like, at the moment. They need a purpose-built unit in order to expand and increase their business. So, Cabinet Secretary, I would be very grateful if you could perhaps set out what the Welsh Government is doing to support businesses in this particular area—businesses that want to grow and expand, but can't find premises? And what support can you provide them with?

Also, the offer, as well, is there, Minister, for you to come to mid Wales. I'm very happy to get a group of 10 or half a dozen people who are looking to move into new premises to speak with you so that they can outline their situation and perhaps help you and your officials to develop a more strategic plan, going forward.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for that question, and, as Russell George says, it is a good problem to have, but definitely one that we need to be working to resolve. So, the property that we are able to provide and identify does form part of our Wales economic offer, because the right site can be absolutely fundamental, as I think you've recognised, in terms of enabling businesses to locate here, but then also to expand their operations here in Wales. We do have a property infrastructure team in the Welsh Government, and that's responsible for the delivery of investment-ready employment sites and premises. So, those would include, for example, workshops, factories, offices, and so on, to support economic development. So, perhaps I'd ask the property infrastrucutre team to make contact with that particular business that you've made representations on behalf of this afternoon, to see if there's a way in which we can support them.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Wrexham Gateway project? OQ61569

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government is aligned with key partners in Wrexham to deliver this exciting project along Mold Road. Our shared ambitions of delivering an integrated public transport and active travel system and facilitating competitive international football in the north remain at the core of our involvement in the project.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you very much. That's really good to hear. The Wrexham Gateway project is something I've long supported because I do believe it could be truly transformational for our city. Working with local partners back in 2021, the Welsh Government invested £25 million, and the aim of the scheme was to regenerate the Mold Road area, as you referred to. It's absolutely a key corridor into Wrexham. Despite the significant setback in January 2023, when the Conservative UK Government, for a second time, rejected Wrexham's bid for levelling-up funding, the partnership adapted its plans to focus more on the western side of the scheme, as there was more of an opportunity in the immediate time to deliver tangible evidence of progress along the Mold Road. Frustratingly, there have been bumps in the road—for example, Wrexham AFC have had to delay the construction of a new Kop stand. And then we had a consultation, which was initiated by Transport for Wales, that finished at the end of the last year. But since that time, we've had very few updates. So, I'm grateful for the support of the Welsh Government, but I would like you to confirm your commitment to deliver this game-changing regeneration project in full, and I wonder if you could provide a timescale.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'd be absolutely more than happy to reaffirm the Welsh Government's commitment to the project, and of course to recognise Lesley Griffiths's long-standing championing of this as well. Our enthusiasm for this is unquestionable. We do know that Wrexham AFC has explained that its intention is to have the stadium, including the new pitch and Kop stand, ready for the UEFA under-19 championships in the summer of 2026, with north Wales hosting this competition in the Football Association of Wales's one hundred and fiftieth anniversary year. So, it should be quite an event. The timeline is entirely feasible, we think, and we're more than happy to continue working alongisde partners to that important goal. I do know that the delay was on the basis of wanting to create a facility that is there for the commuinty all year round, which I think is also really, really positive.

More widely, the Wrexham Gateway project does continue at pace, with the functionality of the public transport interchange at Wrexham General station defined, and negotiations for delivery on the city centre side of the rail line are ongoing. It is difficult to be specific about the timing at this point, but the partnership in Wrexham does still remain very focused on delivering the project in its entirety.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

It's my understanding from Wrexham council of good news that the Wrexham Gateway project should be secure, partly because of Welsh Government funding, partly because of the shared prosperity funding, which Wrexham did receive—almost £23 million out of over £126 million received in north Wales—and because this is a priority project for the north Wales growth deal and the ambition board. Hopefully, you can confirm that your understanding is also that this project is secure. But there is concern that the £20 million town fund allocation to Wrexham could be scrapped by the new UK Government, alongside that for Merthyr Tydfil, Cwmbran and Barry, and the £20 million announced by the previous UK Government for Rhyl, under it's long-term plan for towns, and the £160 million announced for the north-east Wales investment zone. So, I wonder if you can confirm what represenations you're making to colleagues in the UK Government to secure those projects, which mean so much to the organisations, businesses, councils and others involved with them in the region of north Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I just begin by reiterating that we are very focused on delivering the project in its entirety, and critical to that is the £25 million that the Welsh Government was able to provide back in March 2021, which enables the project to move forward.

In terms of the town fund, I think that we all recognise that the funding that was announced by the UK Government is part of the black hole which is there at the moment, because there was never any real money attached to that. That said, it is important to recognise that this is an issue which I’ve brought up with Wales Office Ministers already, and my colleagues are also raising it with counterparts in the UK Government ahead of the UK Government’s autumn budget, which will be at the end of October, and I would expect it would be at that point when we will get the clarity that I know all colleagues are after.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Party spokespeople now to ask questions of the Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, firstly, welcome to your new role. I look forward to working with you over the coming months, and I appreciated the opportunity to meet with you yesterday, so thank you for that. And while you are the third economy Secretary I’m shadowing this year, that is still no excuse for the latest employment statistics when Labour have been in charge for 25 years. These stats show little sign of change, painting a picture of lagging productivity, rising unemployment, and a level of economic inactivity at 27.2 per cent—over 5 percentage points higher than the UK average. Change—that was the one word that acted as the bedrock of the Labour Party’s victory earlier this year. So, what change do you bring to this portfolio? How are you going to change Wales’s economy for the better, getting more people into work and economically active?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, first of all, I will start off by thanking Sam Kurtz very much for the warm welcome to the role, and I do very much look forward to working with you, and, also, to meet with Luke Fletcher as well. I know that there will be plenty of times when we have differences in terms of, perhaps, pace and emphasis and so on, but also plenty of times where we have common ground that we can work on.

I will say, though, in relation to the Office for National Statistics labour force survey statistics, I think even the ONS has itself recognised that there are problems with that data. That’s why that data is no longer considered national statistics; they’re just a set of non-official statistics now, which I think is important to recognise. We do need to look more widely at a range of statistics, I think, which I think paint a much more positive picture of Wales’s performance.

It is my intention to seek a meeting with the chief statistician—the UK’s chief statistician—in order to discuss the moves to improve these statistics. I know there is a work stream in place at the moment, which our own Welsh chief statistician is involved with, to try and improve those statistics. But, as I say, at the moment, they’re not considered official statistics.

That said, the Welsh Government, under the new First Minister, has been really, really clear about the focus of direction. It’s about green growth, it’s about delivering change in a rapid way that makes a difference to people across Wales. And that’s why I think it’s so important that we have Jack Sargeant in his role, which will be looking particularly at apprenticeships, recognising the very important role of skills in terms of meeting the challenges of the future.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Well, once you do have that meeting with the chief statistician, Cabinet Secretary, I’d welcome an oral or written statement from you on that. And it’s interesting that the Office for National Statistics is producing non-official statistics, and that’s an anomaly that I think needs to be ironed out, because it is clear that Wales needs an urgent plan to turn its economy around. While these statistics, official or not, give us a broad view, it’s important to remember that, behind every statistic, behind every number, is a person—someone striving to contribute to our society, provide for their family and secure their future.

Now, I’ll have the privilege of attending the opening of Pembrokeshire College’s energy transition skills hub on Friday—a pioneering project, funded by Shell, that aims to equip our workforce with the skills, as you mentioned, needed for the jobs of tomorrow. Now, I urge you to visit west Wales and see not only the hub for yourself, but also all the potential projects in the pipeline, and how, if delivered, properly utilising a skilled local workforce and supply chains could be transformative for communities across Wales, because industry is chomping at the bit. It knows what it needs in terms of skills. It knows what it needs in terms of consenting and timelines to be able to deliver these projects and transform our communities. But does the Welsh Government get it? Do you and your department get how necessary it is to deliver these projects, and, if so, how are you helping to turn these opportunities into realities?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

First of all, I’d say thank you very much for the invitation to join you on Friday. I’m sorry that I’m not able to, due to a previous engagement, but I was very grateful for the invitation and I will absolutely make a point of visiting at another point. Yesterday, we did have an opportunity to discuss, actually, the huge range of opportunities that there are in the area that you represent locally and that we’re able to support as a Welsh Government. I think that skills and apprenticeships are absolutely critical in terms of meeting the needs of businesses of the future, which is why it’s really important that we do the mapping work to understand where the skills are at the moment, but then also what the needs are of the future. Some of that will be around the new technologies that will be there for us to exploit in terms of net zero. You’ll probably be familiar with ‘Stronger, Fairer, Greener Wales', the net zero skills action plan. I think that is an absolutely critical document and an absolutely critical road map in terms of ensuring that we’re able to give businesses the skilled workers that they need for the future. I’ll just pay tribute to Vaughan Gething for the work that he did on that, because I think that that is really, really important. Also the policy statement, of course, on apprenticeships, which does set out a bit more detail about the strategic framework for the future of the apprenticeship programme as well. I think all of that’s important. All of our really important partnerships that we have with the further education sector and higher education sector more generally will be very important as well. This is about linking up, it’s about partnership, it’s about industry, academia, the Welsh Government, unions and, of course, UK Government working together. You see great examples of that happening already, but, absolutely, I’m keen to do more of that.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, because it’s really important that we tie all these things together, as you rightly say. Because the cogs of the public sector turn so much slower than the cogs of the private sector, and if they’re looking to invest here in Wales and the Welsh Government isn’t open to business, then that investment will go elsewhere and we’ll miss those opportunities. Improving skills, job opportunities and long-term employment is one way of benefiting a community; another is actual community benefit funds, and I had the opportunity to meet with representatives from Greenlink and MaresConnect interconnectors recently, two major projects linking the power grids of Wales and the Republic of Ireland, enabling the two-way flow of electricity between our nations. These companies are employing a cap-and-floor model, which strikes a balance between commercial incentives, appropriate risk mitigation for project developers, and targets excess revenue to reducing costs for consumers. That’s one mechanism, but, if we’re truly going to deliver the generational change needed to transform our communities where these projects will be located and improve the lives of the people of Wales, then there must be a proper strategic and comprehensive way to target community benefit funds. This must go beyond sponsored kits for local sports teams. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that these projects deliver meaningful, long-term community benefits, improving the lives and opportunities for people across Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’m grateful for the question and absolutely, along with you, recognise the importance of community benefits, and also I think recognise the importance of making sure that those are sustained into the future. So, it’s not, as you say, necessarily one-off small things but things that, actually, will have longevity as well. I am looking at our economic contract at the moment to explore whether we need to update that or perhaps make it more focused, so I will certainly consider the role of community benefits as I take forward that work.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Llywydd. I’ll also take the opportunity to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to this new role, and what a time to take on the economy portfolio, with all of the challenges that exist.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Now, that ONS release does continue a story, doesn’t it, no matter how you cut it? Low employment and high economic inactivity. I do accept that there are problems with that data. It’s one of the reasons why we need a Welsh-specific ONS, one that collects data specifically from a Welsh perspective across a number of different sectors. I’ve listened to the answers that you gave to Sam Kurtz, and skills and apprenticeships come across very clearly as a priority for yourself. It'd be good to understand what the other priorities are here now. So, it would be great for you to set out some of those priorities, as your predecessors have done previously, in exactly what we need to do to resolve the issues around the Welsh economy. It continues to be a bleak outlook.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I’m grateful for the question, and again for the welcome into post. It was really good to speak to you yesterday about your particular priorities and areas of expertise, recognising that we do have lots of areas that I’m sure we will work together on as well.

Just to say another word on the ONS statistics, in my previous role I had responsibility for statistics and I did issue a written statement to the Senedd, setting out the challenges around the labour force survey data. Nothing's really changed since then, but we can certainly provide a further update on the work that our team is doing with the ONS in order to refine that data. I think it basically comes down to a lack of respondents when invited to provide views, and I think that speaks to lots of things, such as the pressures that are already on people who are in employment or running businesses. And when you get a telephone call outside of work hours, you probably don't want to necessarily talk about that and that sort of thing. There are issues there in terms of trying to increase the number of people who respond.

It is my intention to make a statement in the Senedd—I think it's either down for next week or the week after—where I will set out a whole range of priorities. But within that you can absolutely expect to hear more about apprenticeships, but also the importance of inward investment, the foundational economy, but then also our really important journey towards net zero and how we're supporting businesses on that journey too.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Of course, the problems with data collection only emphasise the need for a Welsh-specific body, because if we don't have the data to understand the problems within Wales, then how on earth do we expect to resolve those problems? I hope in the statement that you give to the Senedd that we'll see a promise for an industrial strategy. The situation calls for an industrial strategy doesn't it? That is evidently clear. And the lack of one over the last decade is precisely why we find ourselves in the situation we find ourselves in. Now, Tata crystallises this. I feel I'm living in a parallel universe, where what has happened in Port Talbot is acceptable. You know, we've just lost a critically important industrial capability without any visible resistance from UK Government, Labour or Tory. The UK is an outlier in how we've dealt with this. So, unless we get an industrial strategy that sets out the future direction of the Welsh economy, we'll keep coming back to this Chamber to deliver and hear the same old news. Being proactive and not reactive is key.

So, speaking to an industrial strategy for the moment, an important chapter would be skills. Now, a number of colleagues in the further education sector have raised concerns over the way in which current portfolios have been set up. Now, it appears to place less of an emphasis on the importance of apprenticeships, less of a focus on apprenticeships, with part of it in your department and another part of it, through Medr, being with the Minister for Further and Higher Education. So, is there a risk here of policy becoming disjointed?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, lots in that question. But I think I absolutely have to recognise the reference that you made to Tata, because, of course, the closure of blast furnace 4 and the remaining heavy-end assets at Port Talbot very shortly will bring to an end traditional steel making in Wales. And I just want to really recognise the enormity of that and what that means for both Port Talbot, but also the wider community and workforce as well, because there will be people who have worked there their entire working lives. So, it will be a very sombre time, I think. I'll make a further statement in due course, building on what the First Minister said about the support that Welsh Government will be putting in place and the work that we're doing in partnership both with the company, but also UK Government, and the unions and local authorities and others. So, I didn't want to let the moment pass without just recognising that.

In terms of apprenticeships, of course, they will be important in our response to Tata as well. We need to ensure that people who are currently undertaking apprenticeships are able to complete those, but then also need to look ahead to the arc, what skills do we need. We need to start planning now, basically, to make sure that those people are ready to start in that employment. I don't think that the fact that apprenticeships is spread across Government in that kind of way is actually a negative thing. I think it just recognises how important apprenticeships are. So, Jack Sargeant will absolutely be taking the lead on all of this, but, of course, working closely in partnership with Vikki Howells in the FE space and HE, and then myself in my role as well. So, you know, we're a small team. We can work effectively together, and I don't think that the fact that more than one Minister has an interest in this is a bad thing.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Of course, it's important that we don't fall into that silo-working element when looking at apprenticeships, because the effect of good policy on apprenticeships will have a positive effect on productivity. If I could turn to productivity, the figures we receive on a regular basis often show Wales struggling with productivity, often being at the bottom of those tables. Your predecessor highlighted improvements to productivity as a key priority, and he was right to do so. Is it safe to assume that improving productivity remains a key priority for you? And through what lens will you look at improvements to productivity, because, at the end of the day, what is the economy? At its base level, it's people, isn't it? What we should be aiming for is an economy that provides meaningful and fulfilling roles for those people and their lives. Any policies aimed at improving productivity should bear that in mind.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I absolutely come from the same place as you on this. Improving productivity is not about making people work harder. It's about making sure that people work in the environments that they need in order to be productive, and also that the businesses that they work in are investing in the business itself, that we're investing in people's skills. In my previous role, I remember talking to the UK Government of the time on a number of occasions about the work that was being done by the London School of Economics growth commission, and also the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, both of which recognised that, if you are to grow the economy and if you are to become more productive, then you need to be investing in people—so, investing in skills—but then also investing in infrastructure, which is why capital investment is so important as well. So, I still maintain that those two things are absolutely really important, and I will be advocating for those, but I think also the work that we're doing on fair work is really important in the context that you've described as well, to make sure that people are valued in the workforce, have opportunities to progress, and have dignity in the workforce as well, which is also important.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

3. How is the Welsh Government working with the banking sector to secure banking hubs in South Wales East? OQ61561

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We continue to press Cash Access UK, which leads on the development of shared banking hubs, to increase the pace of these in Wales. A total of 81 have been opened across the UK so far. Fifteen more are soon to be announced, with Monmouth included within the list.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Ystrad Mynach's branch of Barclays is the fifth branch in the county borough to have its closure announced in the last year, and this is a quiet crisis being seen across my region. If you go north to Bargoed, there is an absence of any bank branches or hubs, and the cash points in town are sometimes left completely empty of cash at the weekend, leaving residents with no way easily of getting hold of money, and that's been raised with me by community councillor Joshua McCarthy. When banks close their doors, it can isolate communities and individuals, so I'd ask what discussions you as a Welsh Government can have with banking and financial businesses about setting up more of these banking hubs after branches have left, and would you explore the opportunity of delivering additional services from banking hubs, like debt advice and digital inclusion training? Because, for all that we are encouraged to see that when banking moves online, yes, it's going to make it easier for most people to gain access to their money, because you can get it quickly from your phone, but, for those people who are digitally excluded, the gap gets wider and wider, so what can be done to make sure that they're not left further behind, please?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question. I think the circumstances that you've described in Ystrad Mynach really are a microcosm of what's been happening across Wales in the sense that 376 bank branches have closed in Wales since January 2015. That's an absolutely critical loss, really, when you think about the way in which communities value those services. So, with only 183 bank and building society branches slated to be open by the end of 2025, the impacts, I think, on financial inclusion will be quite significant, and we all recognise, I think, that most vulnerable people, including older people and disabled people, will rely more heavily on physical banking provision. So, we absolutely will be pressing for more of those hubs to be coming here and to do so more quickly, but I would really encourage colleagues, as I said in my answer to Joyce Watson earlier, to get involved with making representations to LINK, so LINK will be able to hear your concerns about communities that are banking deserts in some places now, to be able to identify those places where those hubs are needed. It is of course a UK Government commitment as well to increase the banking hubs, so we'll be pressing them further on that as well.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

As my colleague, Delyth Jewell, rightly pointed out, bank closures are indeed of great concern to so many people across south-east Wales. The recent closure of the TSB bank in Cwmbran is just one in a long line of banks that are, indeed, closing in Wales between 2024 and 2025, including seven Lloyds and eight Halifaxes. Having worked for a bank myself, I completely understand that banks are, indeed, businesses, and with the majority of services now available online, high-street banks are often no longer cost-effective for many banks, and I accept that. However, there are still many transactions that constituents would rather discuss in person, particularly the older generation, as my colleague mentioned, who may not have access to online services, with so many scams taking place, as well as digital inclusion, which my colleague mentioned.

Banking hubs are indeed a great way of combating issues surrounding the closures, as residents can pop into their local community spots, such as their post office, on the day that their bank is in the hub, and speak to a community banker in a private room about anything that they wish to discuss. So, in light of this positive alternative, given the different choices high-street banks are now facing with closures, can the Welsh Government commit to looking at further financial aid in this year's budget to boost banking hub support for the long-term benefit of constituents who may otherwise have to travel miles and miles for help? Thank you very much.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for the question and I recognise, as you do, the importance of those hubs and that they can provide a positive alternative. So, these are not things that the Welsh Government is either responsible for or funds directly, but we will absolutely be pressing for more of them to be coming to Wales. What we do do, though, is provide support to our credit unions here in Wales. So, £0.5 million a year is provided to support 13 community-based projects, and those do include the development of new credit union hubs, which will be held in community venue areas. There's a new one in the Cana centre in Aberdare, for example, run by Smart Money Cymru Community Bank. So, that's just one example, really, of ways in which we're supporting the credit unions to expand their offer here in Wales.

And I think a diverse way of accessing cash and information and advice is important. And the point earlier about ensuring that financial inclusion and advice is available to people is also important. So, signposting from these hubs to places where people can access more information about financial inclusion is really important.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

As you say, Cabinet Secretary, this is a problem right across Wales. For example, in Monmouthshire, eight high-street banks have closed over the past two years, including in Caldicot in my Newport East constituency. Our newly elected Labour MP for Monmouth, Catherine Fookes, campaigned long and hard before getting elected, and since, on these issues, and as you say, it is a shared responsibility with the Westminster Government. In that area of Severnside, Cabinet Secretary, we see rapidly growing populations where what were previously small villages are now small towns. So, I think that has to be recognised in terms of providing those high-street banking services where people live and where people need them. Is that an aspect of the overall picture that you recognise and that you will factor into your decision making?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, thank you very much for raising that. I think that that's really recognised by the movement behind the banking hubs, in the sense of the importance of them in communities right across Wales. I know that Catherine Fookes will be really pleased with the latest announcement around the Monmouth banking hub, which is one of the 15 that have been announced more recently. There are a number right across Wales, but we absolutely need to see more of them. And, in the context of the reduction in the number of banks, which I mentioned in my previous answer, where only 183 banks and buildings societies will be left open by the end of 2025, then we really do need to see these motoring ahead. So, we will do anything that we can to support and facilitate them, and obviously we're very pleased to see the UK Government's commitment to increase the number and pace as well.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about assessing the economic value of creating new medical training establishments in different parts of Wales? OQ61559

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for the question. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and I are pleased that we have invested significantly in the development of the new north Wales medical school, which takes on its first students this month. The north Wales medical school provides the opportunity for those aspiring to be doctors in north Wales to study close to home. It is now important that we assess the success of the north Wales medical school.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. Moving on from the medical school to the need for a new dentistry school, and an independent report that was launched last week makes the case for locating a new school of dentistry for Wales in Bangor. The report outlines the economic case as well as all of the other clear reasons that there are in favour of establishing a school of dentistry in Bangor. The report comes to the conclusion on page 26 that

'There is a strong economic case for locating a dental school in Bangor.'

It goes on to say that:

'A dental school in Bangor would build further on recent far-reaching investments in expanding the provision of teaching in the health and care sector. Such a cluster can create new opportunities to enrich training and academic experiences, and to innovate and develop new business opportunities in the sector.'

So, will you discuss the findings of this report with other Ministers and other Members of the Cabinet to consider the impact that a school of dentistry would have on the economy of the area? Thank you.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch yn fawr, Siân Gwenllian, for the question, and thank you for the work that you've done on the ‘Filling the Gaps’ report. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and I met just this week to discuss the importance of the health sector for the economy and we are aware of the report, and I read with interest over the last few days, on page 26, the economic case, as you’ve set out, in the report.

With reference to and regard to the need for and proposal of a second dental school, particularly in north Wales, any such proposal must be led by the health board. It’s important that universities like Bangor University and Aberystwyth University help to develop those proposals and I’m actively encouraging those universities to do so. Any such proposal that comes forward in that manner will then be considered by Ministers and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, subject to funding being available, but I think your report, ‘Filling the Gaps’, does go some way towards helping to shape such a proposal.

Llywydd, more broadly, I’m very proud of the investment and the record of the Welsh Labour Government in terms of investing in education and training to support and sustain the health workforce across Cymru. The NHS has more people working in it now than ever before, and providing state-of-the-art training facilities like the north Wales medical school. The £3.5 million investment from this Government is an important first step in encouraging medical professionals to train, work and live in Wales, and this is not only beneficial to the students who get to explore everything our beautiful country has to offer; it’s vital for NHS recruitment. But also—as the Member rightly points out—it does help boost our local economy as well.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Can I first of all congratulate Jack Sargeant on his new post? I’m certainly looking forward to seeing him thrive in his role in future months and years, I’m sure.

Minister, what struck me on hearing the question from Siân Gwenllian is some of the opportunities around the public and private partnership opportunities when it comes to investment in medical training establishments. I was actually in your constituency this week, meeting with Specsavers opticians, because it’s National Eye Health Week, and they shared with me some of the investment they’re making in training facilities in England, for optometrists and within ophthalmology as well, so I think there’s a real opportunity for those public-private partnerships to enhance training facilities here in Wales as well. So, I’d be keen to understand what collaboration can be undertaken with the private sector, do you think, here in Wales, so that as Welsh Government, you can work hand-in-hand with those companies and businesses to ensure we have top-quality training provided both, yes, by public sector training providers, but also by private sector training providers, to certainly help our economic supply chain as well? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful to Sam Rowlands for the warm welcome and the question, and indeed I look forward to working with him in the future as well. And it’s always good to welcome Sam to Alyn and Deeside. I think I was last in Specsavers having my eye test locally, but I’m grateful for his support for the business in Alyn and Deeside.

When it comes to training, in general, and the training facilities in the private sector, I’m very keen for us to do everything we possibly can to work with both the public sector and the wonderful training providers we have in the higher education and further education sectors, but also with industry, which plays a key role in some of that, so whether that’s directly with businesses or indeed private training providers as well. And not just in the health sector, but across all sectors, we must do everything we can to make sure we have a skills programme that is ambitious, particularly around the green jobs and growth priorities.

I know the Member was in the University of Manchester recently, looking at some of the programmes around healthcare and the opportunities around artificial intelligence and digitisation. I think this is a really exciting field, not just in healthcare, but across all Government portfolios, and I'm sure we'll be keen to see what more we can do in those spaces, and it'll be a conversation I'll pick up with both the Cabinet Secretary for the economy and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the effectiveness of enterprise zones? OQ61548

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Over several years, the Welsh Government-designated enterprise zones have continued to deliver against a challenging economic backdrop. Numerous jobs have been supported across the zones, while public sector investment has enabled a wide range of transformative projects across all eight zones.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I thank the Minister for that response. In the 1980s, Wales had three zones: Milford, Delyn and, the largest in Britain, Swansea. Enterprise zones were criticised for most of the jobs created being displaced, often from other places in the area, and each job created cost £23,000. In 2012-13, several enterprise zones were designated, and in 2017-18, Port Talbot enterprise zone was set up. Choosing central Cardiff as a business area and Deeside as a manufacturing area, which were certain to succeed, meant the policy could be deemed a success. When is the Welsh Government going to review all the enterprise zones and publish a report outlining how they have performed?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for the question, and I think I would recognise the way in which Mike Hedges has categorised and described the enterprise zones of the 1980s. I know that he has big concerns about how they drew investment out from city centres and the impact that that had, and I think that that is entirely something that I would recognise. The current investment zone approach, though, is very different, in the sense that we've designated our enterprise zones to support key growth sectors, such as advanced manufacturing, ICT, energy and environment, and financial and professional services. So, they're not based around the retail sector, so displacement effects aren't going to be as they were in response to the 1980s designations.

But it is important to recognise that outside of Cardiff, and outside of Deeside—those key areas—there are significant improvements taking place, for example, the development of M-SParc in Anglesey, which is part of Bangor University, which is a really important success, and the work in Snowdonia, which has helped to elevate the site as one of choice for new low-carbon developments. Again, I think that's really important. And then when we look to the Haven waterway zone, work's ongoing there to deliver the Pembrokeshire food park, which will add value to local produce, provide new jobs and also help with UK food security. And turning to Ebbw Vale, for example, the enterprise zone there is now aligned to the Tech Valleys programme, and that's seen the development of the Thales technology campus, providing research solutions for cyber resilience. As I think I've said before, if anyone wants to have their mind blown, arrange a visit there, because the things that they're doing are absolutely incredible. And then further examples around Port Talbot, Bro Tathan and so on, as well. So, I think that you can prove and point to improvements, significant investment and exciting investment beyond Cardiff and Deeside.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, let me take you back to the Port Talbot waterfront enterprise zone. Your predecessor, many times, referred to established enterprise zones as a way to address the economic misfortunes of west Wales and the Valleys, but alas, we have yet to reap the benefits. Gross value added in my region remains one of the lowest in the UK, and while enterprise zones across Wales have had some success in safeguarding jobs, they have not had the dramatic impact we were promised over a decade ago. However, I'm deeply concerned about the future of Port Talbot enterprise zone. The massive job losses at Tata, one of the key anchors of the zone, are bound to have an impact. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what assessment have you made of the health of the enterprise zone and how will you work with the UK Government's Tata transition board to secure a lasting positive impact on the region's economic misfortunes?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The future of Port Talbot is absolutely critical, and despite the sad news at the moment and what that means for the workforce at Tata, I think that there is a really exciting and bright future for Port Talbot. You can see our long-term commitment in our acquisition of the former BP Chemicals site at Baglan Bay. That does present us with the opportunity to bring forward a major strategic development site, which then has the opportunity and the potential to help transform the region's economic base from heavy industry and the industries of the past to the industries of the future, such as high-value manufacturing and green energy production. It will also support net-zero opportunities in south-west Wales more widely and beyond. The Baglan high-value demonstrator centre aligns with the Welsh Government's work with Innovate UK, and I think that's just one example of the important work that we're doing in that space at the moment.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I'd like to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to her new role, also. I'm glad she mentioned M-SParc and the brilliant work going on there in terms of incubating and encouraging the development of businesses in digital, low carbon and other sectors. I've been long convinced that we need something similar in the food production sector, and there's actually land identified as enterprise zone land that could be used for developing such a food production park. We have all the ingredients, if you like, on Ynys Môn to take such a food park forward—the food technology centre is brilliant in Llangefni; we have the tradition of food production, and we have smaller food production companies that are looking to grow and looking for a helping hand. Other Ministers have supported, in principle, looking at this. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree to help me, to work with investors to try to make this a reality? And will she meet with me to look at how we can finally, hopefully, take this forward, given that we do have, now, more partners coming on board?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'd be more than happy to meet with Rhun ap Iorwerth to talk in a bit more detail about this. I do remember, I think, a short debate that the Member championed in the Senedd quite some time ago, and even at that point, I think there was significant potential. But things have moved on since then and I think that's really encouraging. So, absolutely, I'm more than happy to have that meeting.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

6. What plans does the Welsh Government have to create green jobs in post-industrial towns, and valleys like the Rhondda? OQ61554

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

There are enormous net-zero opportunities across Wales to support business growth and to develop new technologies. We recognise the importance of creating a pipeline of skilled and talented individuals, which was one of the seven key priorities within the net-zero skills action plan.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

My constituency was vital during the industrial revolution, and it's no secret that, since that time, other than jobs in trades, we've really struggled with limited local employment, especially within the energy sector. Green jobs have the potential to turn this around. With an abundance of natural resources, such as the hydro project at Cambrian and wind turbines throughout the valley, along with the growing market for sustainable homes, we have significant untapped potential. How important is it to form partnerships between colleges, energy companies and housing associations to create the green jobs of the future? Additionally, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to encourage and facilitate these partnerships to ensure that Rhondda benefits from the green energy transition and job creation?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really grateful for the question and the opportunity to highlight the importance of green jobs and green growth for all parts of Wales, particularly those that have that very industrial heritage, because they can absolutely be at the forefront of the next wave of industry and that green and net-zero space. I think the work that we're doing through Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru will be really important in developing large-scale renewable energy projects, and crucially, retaining the benefits of those within our communities here in Wales and within the supply chains that we have here in Wales. And also, of course, the income from the projects, as they develop, will be retained here in Wales. I think that that is absolutely something to be really excited about in terms of the future and how we can continue reinvesting in our communities. And, of course, we've got Ynni Cymru supporting community energy projects, with £10 million of capital investment to support smart local energy projects. Of course, Ynni Cymru was part of our commitment with the co-operation agreement. So, we're continuing with both of those things. I think they're both really exciting. And when you put that into the context of the net-zero action plan, which I referred to earlier, which is all about skills from school right the way up to people who are looking to reskill following a previous career, I think that we are in very exciting territory.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage parents of young children back into the workforce? OQ61572

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you. Together with the Department for Work and Pensions, we have in place a comprehensive set of measures through our employability programmes and childcare offer to support parents back into work.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Getting parents back into the workforce is fundamental to a thriving economy. I know that you would agree with that. Last year, Oxfam found that over a quarter of Welsh respondents to its survey were spending over £900 a month on childcare costs, with 43 per cent saying that they hadn’t been able to pay other essential costs after paying for childcare.

Concerningly, over half of the respondents said that, after paying for childcare costs, it doesn’t make financial sense for them to go to work. This clearly has implications for the Welsh economy. Yes, the Welsh Government has support for children over the age of three. However, that is three years’ worth of childcare costs that Welsh parents are paying but English parents aren’t. With this in mind, Minister, what steps will the Government be taking to expand childcare support in Wales as a way to boost the Welsh economy?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Peter Fox for the supplementary question. I do agree with him that getting parents back into work is important to the Welsh economy. On the childcare offer, the childcare offer is the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Social Care, who has heard what you have said today. But the Member will be aware of the childcare offer and the conversations that we have had, having engaged in the petitions process, airing some of these issues with the Welsh offer and the offer of the previous UK Government, and the concerns around the offer in England due to a lack of qualified staff.

So, Llywydd, I would refrain from entering into the field of my colleague's responsibilities, but I would just say that we are making sure that we train enough qualified staff in the field of childcare. I'm very proud of the commitment that we place, and the support that we place, to provide training and upskilling in this sector, particularly through our apprenticeship programme, with funding for work-based learning in childcare and play and development.

Presiding Officer, the importance of getting back into work—. Well, as a new Dad—and I think that Noa and his mum are in the Chamber this afternoon—I very much understand the pressures of balancing the responsibilities of being parents to a young child, but also the responsibilities in work as well.

I do think that it's really important that parents who are seeking to come back into work understand their rights and roles within the workplace. I know that our trade union partners do some great work in this field, making sure that their members understand their rights when returning, through this transition period, to work, and I would like to place on record my thanks to them for all that they do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8—Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the delivery of apprenticeships in Wales? OQ61577

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Luke Fletcher for the question. One hundred and forty-three million pounds has been allocated to the apprenticeship programme this year, to deliver long-term economic benefits and strong career opportunities. Responsibility for the delivery of the apprenticeship programme transferred to Medr from 1 August. Medr data shows that 55,095 apprentices have started on the apprenticeship programme so far this Senedd term.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Anecdotally, colleges are reporting an increase in individuals saying that they want to start college, as well as learners who are actually doing so. They are also reporting an increase in starts across all vocational areas. By contrast, UCAS reported back in July a significant participation challenge for Welsh universities, with the number of applicants from Wales dropping to a 15-year low.

So, does the Minister think that we are beginning to see a swing to more localised vocational training at college, and how does this influence the Welsh Government’s thinking around Medr? Does it, for example, envisage Medr funding following the learners?

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Luke Fletcher for the supplementary question. Can I thank him also for the work done by him and his co-chair, Hefin David, on the cross-party group for apprenticeships? I think that it's a valued cross-party group here in the Senedd. The responsibilities for Medr have now been transferred. So, they are in charge of all operational matters when it comes to apprentices, and we fully expect them and partners to deliver against our policy statement, which was set out in February of last year.

I am, perhaps, not surprised to see more learners go towards the vocational route. I'm very proud of the fact that that is the case. The Minister for Further and Higher Education oversees the responsibility of Medr, and will, I'm sure, consider what you've said today. They have, of course, outlined their strategic plan for consultation this week, and I'm sure they would have heard the Member's thoughts on whether the funding should follow that particular route.

But in terms of apprentices, Presiding Officer, you'll have no bigger supporter of apprenticeships in Wales than me. I'm very proud of this Welsh Government's record on apprenticeships—I should know, as a former apprentice myself. I think I'm the first responsible Minister for apprenticeships to follow that route. I'm incredibly proud of that, and I'm proud of the record we stand on. Apprenticeships will play a key role in meeting our green growth and jobs potential in Wales, and that's a priority set out by the First Minister, and a priority for this Government.

And I should say, Presiding Officer, I was pleased to see the announcement from the UK Government of a new growth and skills levy, to replace the existing levy, in the UK. I see this as a real opportunity for two Labour Governments working together on a reformed levy—one that works with Welsh businesses, one that works with Welsh training providers, and, importantly, one that works for Welsh apprentices. I look forward to engaging with UK Ministers on that matter, but also the Member on these matters going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister, and thanks also to the Cabinet Secretary for that question session.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is from Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

1. How is the Welsh Government encouraging people to join the NHS workforce in North Wales? OQ61574

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

In light of the global shortage of healthcare workers, all nations across the UK face workforce challenges. This impacts the length and breadth of Wales. In recognising the need for action, in January 2023, we published our national workforce implementation plan, which set out actions to improve recruitment and retention, including improving staff well-being.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for the answer, Minister. This month, thanks to Welsh Government investment support, the new North Wales Medical School at Bangor University has welcomed its first intake of students, which includes a mix of school leavers and graduate entrants. North Wales Medical School will grow over time to graduate up to 140 newly qualified doctors to join the NHS workforce each year, creating new pathways for students to achieve their dream of joining the medical profession, and, hopefully, making their homes in north Wales—beautiful north Wales—as we all want to see. Minister, do you agree that this is a fantastic example of the Welsh Government's commitment to encouraging those interested in a career in a healthcare to train, work and live here in Wales, in north Wales? And how do you intend to work with our new UK Labour colleagues in Westminster to help close the gaps in our health and social care sectors as well?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that important question. The establishment of the new medical school in north Wales will, obviously, enable us to train more medical students here in Wales, but also will ensure that we can distribute training opportunities and, hopefully, the provision of well-qualified doctors right across Wales as well.

The experience that we offer students in Wales routinely tops league tables in terms of excellent student experience, and I think that's something that we can be proud of. And students also play a really important role in service delivery, through their placements across Wales as well. I think it's really important, as we've discussed already in the Chamber today, to maximise the benefit of the investment that we are making through employing and retaining newly qualified professionals. I think that the new medical school is good news for students, it's good news for the people of north Wales, and for Betsi Cadwaladr health board as well.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

The issue surrounding recruitment and retention is very much a non-political matter, and as a former employee of Betsi Cadwaladr, the line of 'Train. Work. Live.' in north Wales is nothing new in that regard, because it was always something that was spoken about. I'm pleased that the medical school will hopefully create inroads to achieving that, and that you can live and work in an environment where you earn as you learn, if you like. Because that's something that, essentially, was a big barrier in my early career in the NHS. It was actually the glass ceiling breaking in, and actually having training opportunities within the workforce.

But I’d just like to ask a question around the training and development of current staff within the NHS and what support and guidance you would give to health boards in that regard, because it is important to remember that seeking an educational alternative to some of these professions is not always financially equitable to do and it takes a lot of sacrifice and dedication. So, I’m keen to look at avenues that the Welsh Government can explore—an earn-as-you-learn development scheme internally within the NHS that can create more fluidity within the workforce, but then also have protected time for professionals so that they don’t become disillusioned within their careers and then, essentially, they’re not leaving the health service, so that 'Train. Work. Live.' can actually run deeper than just warm words. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The 'Train. Work. Live.' campaign has been a very successful campaign, actually. I think that, last year, a total of 199 new GP trainees were recruited to schemes across Wales, which is a good number. I think the Member is right to say that it is important that we provide, as well as good training and education opportunities for healthcare professionals of all sorts to qualify, the addition of initially 80 new student training spaces in north Wales, increasing to 140. That will make a significant contribution to those overall numbers, and that’s in north Wales; there’s obviously been an expansion as well in south Wales.

But the Member is right to say that, critical, I think, both in terms of the provision of care and maintaining currency in terms of skills, are also those incentives that encourage people to stay in the health and care sectors, which is a critical priority for us. That does depend on being able to offer, as we do, an attractive package of ongoing training and education and a clear pathway from undergraduate to postgraduate training through that person’s career. So, I think that that commitment to retention—we now have a retention lead in each local health board area—with a planned dimension, in the workforce implementation plan, underpinned by that strong commitment to ongoing professional development and training, is really critical.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

2. How many health boards have travel plans in place for both staff and patients, and how are these monitored and reported? OQ61551

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Health boards in Wales have, since 2008, been required to have sustainable travel plans in place for patients and staff at their main hospital sites. Monitoring arrangements are in the hands of the health boards, and the plans are not submitted or monitored by Welsh Government officials.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Anyone who has tried parking at a hospital knows what a nightmare it can be, and the research also shows that, in most cases, the majority of staff at a hospital live within close distance and work within office hours, and yet drive. And we know that travel planning, when monitored and supported properly—which, it sounds from the answer, is not always the case at the moment—can be successful in reducing the number of people driving to hospital, which can then free up car parking spaces for visitors. We know that, in order to reach our broader climate change targets, we need to reduce the number of car journeys that are made, and last week’s Wales Net Zero 2035 report said that big employers like the NHS have a key part to play in incentivising walking, cycling and public transport for work journeys. So, what more can the health and care sectors do to make their contribution to tackling the climate emergency and to easing the congestion at hospital sites?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that question. I think what motivates his question is the contribution that the health service can make to the broader ambitions that we have as a country in relation to our net-zero goals and responding to the climate emergency. But I also think it's an important lens to apply to the sustainability of the health service itself and the behaviours that it can model, both to its staff and its patients, and to its partners more broadly.

As I said, since 2008, those requirements have been in place. We reaffirmed those in 2018 through a Welsh health circular, setting out the requirements on organisations to have those plans in place. Those requirements remain extant. I know that health boards are using a range of incentives to encourage staff to use active travel—so, bus pass schemes, cycle-to-work schemes, lift sharing, and so on. The decarbonisation strategic delivery plan for the NHS in Wales, which was launched three years ago, follows closely the guidance in the active travel plan for Wales, to make sure that active travel is factored into decision making, in particular in the context of new developments. But I think it is true to say, having made enquiries with health boards, that it is a variable picture in relation to the publication of those active travel plans. And I think, given the publication of the Welsh Government's active travel plan for Wales 2024-27, it's timely to issue a reminder to the organisation of the requirement to have plans. So, I have asked officials in my department to do that.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, the lack of bus services to the Grange hospital continues to be a major issue for many of my constituents across south-east Wales. In 2023, it was announced that a new direct bus route would run between Blackwood and the hospital itself. But, some seven months later, the service was axed when the Welsh Government withdrew their funding. As I'm sure you're well aware, Cabinet Secretary, there are lots of issues with the Grange hospital, including lack of accessibility. This service was hugely beneficial to my constituents, particularly those who don't drive, or, indeed, following treatment, and now they're having to focus by enduring lengthy journeys involving multiple buses. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that urgent improvements must be made immediately so that residents can indeed access the Grange, and what discussions have you had with the transport Secretary about addressing this issue, going forward? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the transport Secretary and I are of the same mind in relation to this. We both recognise how important it is to have bus services that enable families, communities to be connected to services, as well as to each other. I think the point that the Member makes highlights one of the challenges that we face in the current model that we have for the delivery of bus services, which I think, by any realistic measure, can be said to be broken and requires huge levels of public subsidy, without delivering really the public good that we need it to do. That is what lies behind the legislation that we plan to introduce to the Senedd, which will enable us to re-regulate the bus network in Wales, which will provide the opportunity for us to make sure that services are delivered where they are required, rather than where they are simply profitable for bus companies.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Following on from Natasha's question—

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

—and not to rehearse the same argument, because the Grange is something that is not best served with some of the public transport links that have been there, and, obviously, that bus service that Natasha talked about was jettisoned after six months, could you go into a little bit more detail about what those discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for transport are looking like, and also what are your thoughts with regard to the bus Bill, when it comes along? How will the NHS feed into feasibility studies for where those routes need to be and how you need to link up hosptials across the south-east and across Wales to the bus service?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That's an important consideration. I think making sure that services to which the public need access are supported by provisions in the new legislation, obviously, is critical. I think there'll be an opportunity to discuss in more detail what that looks like when the legislation is brought forward. So, the Member may have to bear with us for a little while longer.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from the spokespeople now. The Conservative spokesperson first of all, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the First Minister has said that she's ready to use the private sector in the Welsh NHS. Are you ready?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Welsh Government has made use of private sector capacity for the common good, if you like, for many years. We recognise that the priority that the Government attaches to reducing waiting lists means that we will have to look at whatever options are available. I actually think that, in the long term, what we want to see is making sure that we have the level of innovation and learning from best practice within the public sector, but there have been times when we need to deploy private sector capacity to help us in those public goals.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. As Welsh Conservatives, we have consistently called for greater partnership working with both the private and third sectors to, as you say, supplement and assist the NHS here in Wales, which sadly is creaking after a quarter of a century of Welsh Labour rule. So, I'm glad that you agree with a Welsh Conservative idea and have taken that on as well. As a new health Cabinet Secretary, I do hope we see a more cohesive and positive approach from you to utilising both the private and third sectors in order to support, as you say, those languishing waiting lists that we see here in Wales at the moment. In relation to those waiting lists, I didn’t get an answer yesterday from the First Minister on this issue. So, can you tell me what targets you’re setting for the reduction of those NHS waiting lists?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, just to be clear, I think the Member, if I may say, is somewhat wide of the mark if he thinks that I share the Conservative view on how to run the NHS. And to be clear, the principle that the Welsh Government has applied in making use of private sector capacity is that it shouldn’t be at the expense of the long-term capacity of the NHS, which is fundamentally different from the approach that Conservative Governments have taken in England over the last 14 years.

The targets that we’ve published in relation to waiting times are the targets that are in the public domain, against which we report on a monthly basis. The most recent figures, of course, came out last month. What I want to make sure is that we can, with a level of priority that this Government is attaching to reducing those waiting times, make better progress against the targets that we have already set. As the Member will have seen from the information published last week, there is a variable picture between health boards in relation to different measures, different services, and the challenge and, I think, the opportunity for us is to make sure that those parts of the organisation that need to do more to meet their targets are able to learn from those that are doing better. Each health board is doing well in some areas, and each health board has areas they need to work on. So, having that collaborative approach, that collaborative innovation, across the system, I think is a critical part of the solution.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Yes and, as you say, that collaborative approach is really important, but, sadly, I don’t think we’ve seen it enough. And a live example I can give you is that, for glaucoma operations in Wrexham at the moment, patients there are waiting three years on a waiting list for a disease that clearly has a massive impact on their daily lives. If you live in Cheshire, it’s a four-week wait, just across the border, because the health trust there has a partnership arrangement with a private sector company to deliver those operations. A four-week wait in Cheshire, a three-year wait in Wrexham. So, there are huge opportunities.

In terms of those targets that we mentioned, as well, it is disappointing that it seems as though many of the targets that are in place are not worth the paper that they’re written on. And the consequences of those targets not being met seem to pretty weak, to say the very least. And it is remarkable, as we heard again yesterday from the First Minister about this collaboration between the Welsh and UK Governments on cutting waiting lists and working together, it is remarkable that it was so light on the detail of what the collaboration should look like, because you would agree, I’m sure, that cutting waiting lists is surely one of your top priorities here in Wales—it’s what the people of Wales want to see. So, why is it that there does not seem to be a concrete plan for cutting those waiting lists?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think there is a plan for cutting those waiting lists. The point that the First Minister was making yesterday reflects the point that I have just made to the Member in my reply now, which is how important it is for the health service to look to best practice both within other parts of the organisation and also further afield, just as all the public services that we’re responsible for here in Wales take inspiration from best practice wherever that is. And the point that the First Minister was making was that where we have seen, in parts of NHS England in this particular case, successful strategies for supporting reductions in waiting lists—and, absolutely, targets aren’t being met in England either, but there are elements of progress—the question is how we can work together to learn from that. Some of those will work, perhaps, for us in Wales, and some of them will not, but I think having that collaborative approach, where we can learn from things that have worked, is just sensible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Well, I’d like to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his new role once again, and we all wish him well as he seeks to tackle the huge challenges that exist within the health sector.

Of course, Llywydd, the current Cabinet Secretary is the sixth member of the Labour group to hold the health portfolio and, indeed, the third this year. But despite this merry-go-round of ministerial appointments, the record on health is the same. Every Minister or Cabinet Secretary in turn has talked about reducing waiting lists, and we’ve heard that again this afternoon. But, ultimately, they leave the job with the waiting lists having grown longer. So, what will you do differently?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think, if you look at the longest waiting lists under my predecessor, the First Minister, we’ve seen significant progress over the past two years, with progress in achieving the target, with 67 per cent fewer people on the longer waiting lists than there were two years ago. We've seen over the past three, four months that we've rowed back a little bit on that progress. So, what that demonstrates is that we need sustainable progress for the future.

So, there are many things in the system already to tackle this. The first is new, innovative ways to tackle some of the challenges. So, we're looking at what more we can do to ensure that we use operating theatres more effectively, how can we create clinics so that less complex surgery can be undertaken more swiftly, without overnight stays, what further use can be made of AI, for example. So, there is innovation in the system already. What I want to see is that we see more and more of that happening. I've already talked about how important it is that we learn from successes within the system more swiftly, that we can see where the successes are and then share them and spread them more swiftly than we’ve done in the past.

We've also seen—what the Prime Minister has been saying over the past few weeks—how much of a priority reducing waiting lists is now. So, that means that we’re reprioritising within Government as a result of that. But, at the heart of all that work, I think, is better collaboration within the health service and between the health service and, for example, local authorities, but other partners too.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Warm words, but the same outcome, I’m afraid, is what we’ll see. Now, the Darzi report states the failures in the English health system, a system that the Labour Minister Wes Streeting and his PM Keir Starmer say is broken and is the fault of the previous Tory Government. They say that they’ll take responsibility for fixing it. On every metric, the NHS is performing worse in Wales, yet here this Government denies any responsibility and blames everybody else, from health managers to the public, for various failings. So, instead of taking responsibility to fix this, instead of a statement to be scrutinised in the Senedd, we get a headline from the Labour Party conference that this Government plans to outsource its responsibility for the NHS to Westminster. We await the actual substance of the agreement with interest, but is this not simply a case of the Welsh Government abdicating responsibility? Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that this is an admission that 25 years of Labour in Government in Wales has been an abject failure when it comes to running our NHS?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think the Member’s rhetoric is getting rather ahead of the facts of this matter. I think, just to repeat, if he didn’t hear my response to the earlier question, what the First Minister announced in the conference was a different approach whereby I think, and I think the Member would agree with me, all aspects of the work that we are responsible for here in the Senedd should learn from good practice both in Wales and wherever else it can be found. The First Minister was describing a partnership approach so that we can do more of that in the future. There is no question, as I’ve made really clear in all the interviews I’ve given since I became the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, that we are all accountable for our roles and responsibilities within the Government and within the health service. Each of us has a different part to play, and each of us is responsible both for working with each other and being accountable for those outcomes.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

The problems in the health service have been known for years, of course, with warnings given of a shortage of GPs and a shortage of nurses and others in the workforce for a decade and more. The lack of action on these warnings has a direct impact, therefore, on the health and well-being of people on a daily basis today.

Consider the story of Rhythwyn Evans from Tregaron. Four years ago, having been inspired by Captain Tom, Rhythwyn raised £50,000 during the pandemic for the Hywel Dda health board by walking around his bungalow. Now, Rhythwyn is receiving care in a bed at Tregaron hospital, at the very time when the board is considering closing those beds there. This follows the closure of the Dyfi ward in Tywyn, closing the minor injury units in Llandrindod, Brecon and Prince Philip in Llanelli overnight, and considering closing the paediatric unit in Bronglais, all because of a shortage of nurses and an inability to staff these facilities, and quite contrary to your rhetoric of providing care closer to home. So, what will you do differently to ensure that we have the necessary workforce in place in order to ensure that these patients receive care in their community?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, more people are employed by the health service now than ever before. The GP figures are consistent, after a significant increase. There are recruitment challenges in parts of the health and care service, as is the case across the United Kingdom The work that we've been doing to recruit is seeing success. We have more places now for nurse training than were filled last year. Everything isn't right. I have acknowledged that. I have acknowledged that there are specific needs. But we have seen successes in some of our work. We haven't reached where we want to and we've seen challenges in the system. But it's clear from the discussions that we've already had today what our commitment is as a Government in terms of training more doctors, training more nurses, recruiting more dentists and other healthcare professionals. There is work to do, but we do have plans in place for all of those things.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

3. What progress has been made in implementing the recommendations of the Health and Social Care Committee’s 'Connecting the dots: tackling mental health inequalities in Wales' report? OQ61567

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

We continue to make progress on the actions set out in our response to the recommendations in the committee report, and we will provide a full update to the committee early in 2025.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Minister. According to the NHS Confederation, the suicide rates in disadvantaged areas of Wales are between two and three times higher than they are in more privileged areas. Sixty-one per cent of adults in Wales say that their financial situation has a detrimental impact on their mental health. Quite simply, poverty destroys lives, poverty has an impact on health, and poverty kills. How is the Welsh Government going to tackle the poverty that impacts the health of so many in our nation and leads to many suicides? Thank you.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much for the question. As with my predecessors, preventing suicide is a priority, and, as part of this, there is the new funding agreed for mental health, with additional funding for targeted support to this agenda, and this funding has transformed the infrastructure in Wales to prevent suicide and self-harm. This includes strengthening the local multisectoral partnership arrangements through regional co-ordinators and driving national action with our national suicide and self-harm prevention leads. In 2022, we also introduced the real-time suspected suicide surveillance in Wales to provide information to help partners to target prevention, ensure support is made available and to respond when needed. And, as part of developing our new suicide and self-harm prevention strategy, which is due to be delivered shortly, we are reviewing our governance arrangements to strengthen our ability to collect and analyse evidence in relation to suicide and self-harm. And to draw specifically on what you were asking about targeting people from particular backgrounds, we are also reviewing how we draw cross-Government and cross-sector partners together to help shape actions, including across health, housing, transport, education, social services, policing and custodial settings, welfare and employment. This is something that impacts communities and is something that Welsh Government takes incredibly seriously, and we are doing all that we can to tackle this. Diolch.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

I too would be very interested to see what actions have been taken on the back of this report into these inequalities. I don't know if you're aware, Minister, but, in Aneurin Bevan health board, even if you're put on the NHS urgent list for mental health counselling, someone still has to wait months and months just for a telephone appointment for counselling, the alternative being to wait a further seven months for a face-to-face counselling session. Are you aware, Minister, that there seems to be a massive disparity across the Welsh health boards in terms of these waiting lists for counselling? And I'd be interested to know if you've begun to address this, because it's all very well talking about the importance of mental health, but how are you going to ensure that mental health counselling is getting the staff and the resources that it needs, particularly on the back of the success of '111 press 2'? Because the demand for these services is increasing, but it's very worrying that there doesn't seem to be the funding available to support that increase in demand, and people cannot afford to go private. Thank you.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much. Yes, as many people in this Chamber will know, because you were with me, I actually sat on the Health and Social Care Committee when we undertook this inquiry. I heard all of the evidence, and I'm really glad that I did, now being in this role in Welsh Government. To reiterate, really, we are absolutely committed to tackling the inequalities in access to and outcomes from mental health support, and our approach continues to be informed by the recommendations in that very report. As I mentioned as well, we have the mental health strategy coming; it is imminently coming. We had 370-plus responses to it—a huge amount came in, many of them reflecting what you said, absolutely, and that's why we're taking it very seriously in what we set out in the strategy with those targets, but also sharing that best practice across the health board. I'm very dismayed to hear this, though. I would welcome it if you would write to me afterwards so that I can look into this further with that specific health board. But I also wanted to say that the implementation of our final published strategy will take a rights-based approach to ensuring that everyone has the best mental health possible and that they will be able to get the right service at the right time. Diolch.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the demand levels faced by primary care services since the pandemic? OQ61549

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Primary care services are busier than ever, delivering more advanced clinical services than before the pandemic across the various professions, fulfilling our commitment to bringing care closer to home. There are now around 2 million patient interactions each month, and we continue to monitor demand and support service delivery.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Primary care serves as the first point of access for many residents, leading to high demand, with record numbers since the pandemic. Members of the multidisciplinary teams, including care navigators, will face a challenging winter, with residents already reaching out to my office about difficulties booking appointments, especially during the eight o'clock rush. Although the majority of residents have no concerns or problems with the care they receive, their experience in trying to make appointments is falling short. What specific support can be provided to primary care staff to increase appointment availability? Does this include improved digital systems and, if so, how can we ensure that residents, particularly elderly residents, are supported in the transition to digital platforms? Additionally, what other measures are in place to prevent further bottlenecks as winter pressures continue to rise?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Firstly, let me say I'm disappointed to hear of the experience that you're reporting that your constituents have had. It's obviously important that the public are able to have timely access to GP services. As the Member will know, the general medical services contract that governs GP services has been amended to improve access to GP services. That's now a part of the new contract, and it's a requirement for GP practices to have appropriate telephony and call handling systems in place—so, a mixed offer, addressing the point that the Member raised in her question about accessibility for all patients. And that should avoid, and it's intended to avoid, the need for people to call back multiple times.

So, that is now already a provision in the GP contract. I think there is a case for monitoring, clearly, given what you have been saying, for enhancing the monitoring, of those arrangements. On a self-reported basis, the practices tell us that about 97 per cent across Wales are complying with that, but I've asked my officials what more we can do to assure ourselves that the picture on the ground is as it should be, in accordance with the contract.

You asked in particular about digital and the role that digital has to play in the future mix in terms of access to GPs. The NHS Wales digital app is being rolled out across Wales, as you know, and GP practices can actually use that to book appointments—routine appointments, effectively—for things like annual reviews for chronic conditions or ordering repeat medication. So, by doing that, it can free up other capacity for people to access appointments and reduce the number of phone calls that people have to make for that. So, it has a role to play, but it's part of a mixed offer.

Finally, in terms of the support that we are giving as a Government, we have been investing our funding to enable staff to be taken on—additional capacity, effectively—and I think we can see the evidence of that in a number of practices where we have people supporting clinicians to deliver that access, and helping patients navigate the kind of care that they need, which quite often may well not be a visit to the doctor themselves.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, while the strains on GP services are well documented, the pressures being placed on community pharmacies are not often talked about. We are telling the public to choose well, to see a pharmacist before a GP, and a GP before A&E, but we're not following up that advice with adequate resources. As a result of the strain pharmacies find themselves under, many are considering a work-to-rule protest, only opening for the hours contracted by the NHS. This would be an understandable move yet a devastating blow for primary care and our entire NHS, especially as we move into cold and flu season. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the sector to ensure that they are properly resourced for the invaluable work they do for our NHS?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member will wish to know that the negotiations for contracts, including for GMS, but also for primary care providers, have started today, so we hope that they will go forward in a constructive way and enable that support to be provided. The Member is right to say that a critical way to ensure the resilience of primary care provision, which is so important, is that mixed model, and he is right to say that, in order for that mixed model to work, there needs to be sufficient resource and accessibility for those other points of access that we were touching on yesterday in the statement in relation to winter preparedness, the increasing importance of access to community pharmacies.

The figures I have in front of me suggest that there were over 20,000 common ailment service consultations at a pharmacy in Wales in each month of the last year, which is a very significant increase. And we have independent prescribing pharmacists now delivering around 11,000 consultations monthly, so we can start to see the shift in the direction of non-GP surgery provision. As I say, the negotiations for those new contracts have started today, and I hope they will reach a successful conclusion soon.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Primary care in the Holyhead area has suffered a great deal following the pandemic, and also during the pandemic. It's going to be five years, within a few days now, since the closure of Longford Road and Cambria surgeries, with the health board having to take them over and create a single new surgery. But we made the case then on the need for a new multidisciplinary surgery in Holyhead, and in principle we won that debate very early on. But it's taken until now, five years hence, for the outline strategic case to go before the Betsi Cadwaladr board, and I'm very pleased that it is going before the health board tomorrow. I'm confident that they will give their blessing to that part of the plan. I appeal, therefore, to the Cabinet Secretary not to delay, to give a clear sign that the Government is willing to provide the financial support to ensure that this can proceed to the next stage, so that it can be delivered swiftly, because the people of Holyhead and the surrounding area deserve no less.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I know that Hwb Iechyd Cybi has been successful in recruiting GPs recently—that, of course, is to be greatly welcomed. The situation can be very challenging, can't it, when gaps appear that are difficult to fill, and that is so important. So, we'll wait to see what emerges from the meetings of the Betsi Cadwaladr board, which will be happening later this week.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support patients who have received intensive care? OQ61571

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We published our policy approach to the care of critically ill patients in October 2021. We expect health boards in Wales to apply clinical guidance from the Faculty of Intensive Care Medicine and the Intensive Care Society. The NHS executive’s relevant clinical network supports health boards to operationalise this guidance.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Earlier this month, I had the opportunity—very humbling, it was—to visit the fantastic ICUsteps support group in Abergavenny, and it was extremely moving. I didn't realise, until that point, the trauma of people who've gone through intensive care. It's an invaluable support group, and it's run by patients, relatives and healthcare professionals who have experienced ICU wards. They provide ongoing support for patients following their discharge from hospital. I think there are only a couple of these operating across Wales, and it's something I would certainly advocate, because these people valued it so, so much.

It's sad that the experience of being in ICU can be incredibly traumatising, as I said, for both patients and relatives, with many patients having no recollection of any of their experiences and having to face the difficulties of recovery. Some even told me that they contemplated taking their own lives. This is often exacerbated by poor communication down the line from GP to hospital, from hospital to hospital, and hospital ward to hospital ward, to GP. The whole trail of a lack of communication was something that came up many times for many people there. So, with this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what consideration has the Welsh Government given to improving both mental health services and practical support for those who have experienced the trauma of ICU? I would encourage you to perhaps look into the ICUsteps support group—it's a fantastic support group.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, firstly, I'm sorry to hear the experience of those individuals as they reported it to the Member. I was not aware of the group to which the Member refers, and perhaps if you would be happy to write to me, I would make myself more familiar with the work that they do, and perhaps even meet with them.

In relation to the work that we can do at a national level to try and address the sorts of challenges that the Member is describing, I mentioned in my initial answer the role of the clinical networks that the NHS executive put in place, and the point of those is to try and standardise delivery on the basis of best practice across Wales in a range of different practice areas. There is a particular one that has been launched in relation to critical care, major trauma and emergency medicine, and that has developed a service specification for recovery after critical care, which all health boards should be working to. They've also established—mindful of the point that the Member is making about variation—a peer review programme that can help health boards to identify gaps in the kind of provision the Member is referring to, to then try and improve that service delivery. So, that work is work that we can do at a national level, through the executive, and there's an implementation and peer review programme that goes with that. There's doubtless more work to do, but I look forward to hearing more about the group that you mentioned.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

6. Based on what evidence did the Welsh Government support the decision to locate a mother and baby unit in Chester for families from north Wales? OQ61560

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

The decision was made by the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, which had responsibility for the commissioning of specialised services on behalf of health boards at the time. The assessment was made that the level of demand in north Wales was below the recommended minimum size for a mother and baby unit.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

A great deal of concern has been expressed about this plan, and I believe that there is a better way forward than that which is currently being considered. It appears that two beds won't be sufficient in terms of meeting the demand. Statistics from 2018 demonstrate that mothers have not attended units out of the area because of the distance they would need to travel and they would be separated from their families, and of course Welsh-medium support is also needed. Delay is being seen now in the Chester plan, which gives us an opportunity to reflect, I believe, on the true needs of mothers and families in north Wales who do need support. This includes looking at the evidence, of course, doesn't it? But I have asked and asked again, and the modelling that you have mentioned that was undertaken previously, that hasn't seen the light of day; I haven't seen it, and I have been searching for it for a very long time. So, could you access this modelling, share it with us, and can we have a further conversation based on clear evidence about this plan? Thank you.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much. As we know, up to 20 per cent of women experience a mental health problem in the perinatal period, and these can range from moderate to severe, and the most severe will require pathways that do not include in-patient treatment in a mother and baby unit. But in the role of commissioning specialised services on behalf of health boards, WHSSC at the time estimated that there would be demand for eight beds across Wales—two in north Wales and six in south Wales—and the recommended minimum number of beds to sustain a unit is six beds. As we discussed when we met—and I really appreciate that, because I know that you're extremely passionate about this, as am I—the statistics that you use from 2018, I believe things have very much changed since then, and I'm basing that on the fact that I've met with the people who deliver this service, and they do not believe that there is a requirement for any more than two at the moment.

However, I do take this very seriously and so, following your correspondence, I have engaged with officials, the NHS Wales joint commissioning committee, as they are now, and clinicians in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to explore the points that you have raised regarding the appropriateness of the Chester unit and to consider any potential alternatives. To inform any decisions about future provision, I have asked the JCC to undertake a comprehensive demand-and-capacity review of mother and baby unit provision in Wales as soon as possible. This will not only capture placements made within a mother and baby unit, but it will also include an assessment of where an in-patient placement was felt appropriate but did not happen, with a clear rationale of why this was the case, as you requested. The results of this work will be made available to you. And I also want to say that the JCC would also ensure that robust arrangements are in place to quality assure any placements that are made by Welsh residents. Diolch.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Can I thank the Minister for that very full response, which I thought was very well considered? The one element of the response that you didn't refer to, which I was hoping that you would make mention of, was the fact that, whilst I appreciate that work has been done looking at the number of beds that might be required to serve the population in north Wales, we've always had a situation where the population, frankly, makes it difficult to sustain a mother and baby unit. I've known that for many years and, in fact, I can remember being on the health committee when we considered these matters in the past. However, on a cross-border basis, there clearly is a sufficient number of people, but it seems to me that every time there's cross-border provision needed, it's always on the other side of the border. And I just wonder whether there could be some collaboration with the various health organisations in the north-west of England to see whether there's a possibility of having a unit further across the north Wales coast, which might better serve those populations who are an incredible distance from Chester and for whom making a decision to go into a unit is already difficult, but may well be best for them, and then their needs are not being best represented by that significant distance.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much, and this is also something that I discussed with Siân Gwenllian who raised this as well, about, 'Why can't we build it in north Wales and then we can commission the beds?' But, unfortunately, this is something that Chester have had in the works for a very, very long time and they are so far along in it now that it will be delivered, their unit, next year, regardless of whether or not Welsh Government commissions beds there. I take on board what you were saying, though, about the future and what we do with future services and how there may be an element of residents feeling like, 'Well, this always seems to be the case.' So, I will take that on board and look at what else is coming down the pipeline for the future.

But I also just wanted to say that the statistics that were quoted in 2018 were awful, and I believe that the reason why they're much lower now is because we've had investment in the community perinatal mental health teams, and also the development of the integrated care pathway, so that there's that preventative work. When I met with the women who are delivering this service in north Wales, they said that they're doing clinical audits now where they really go back through people's records, they sit down with women before they go in to give birth, they'll talk through their triggers with them, and all of these kinds of things, so it's the most supportive environment that they can possibly be in. And I'm hoping that the reason why we're seeing—. To be honest, there's not the need, and I don't want to wish for a need to fill those beds. So, I'm hoping that it's because of the work that's been done in the community, which, ideally, is where we want women and their babies to remain. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

7. What measures or lessons will the Welsh Government consider for Wales in response to the Care Quality Commission's recent review in England into the manslaughters committed by Valdo Calocane in Nottinghamshire? OQ61575

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Whilst this was a review of services in England, we are committed to learn from incidents to improve the quality and safety of mental health services, and we have invested over £2 million in the NHS executive to drive these improvements through our strategic programme for mental health.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you for the response, Minister, but unfortunately you will know all too well that there have been similar recommendations made regarding similar cases in Wales, such as those raised by a constituent of mine, Barry Topping-Morris. Barry worked within the NHS and revealed inadequate practices and poor risk assessment and discharge arrangements in a local mental health unit almost 20 years ago. He continues with his work to improve safety measures in mental health services, despite never receiving an apology for the dire consequences that speaking out had on his career at the time. He outlined this recently in a Nation.Cymru article about his experiences. Sadly, we do see these repeats of recommendations, and the emotional and financial cost, as well as the cost to lives and families, is devastating, because mental health services are just not able to address the concerns and recommendations. So, Minister, how will you ensure that Wales prioritises improvements in services for patients with mental health conditions, so that we do not see a repeat of the calls for these lessons to be learnt again in the future?

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you very much for that question, and I am terribly sorry to hear about your constituent. I do applaud and welcome anybody who is able to share their lived experience. What I would like to say is that I promise that it's making a difference. It is really making a difference, because the Welsh Government held a mental health ministerial summit in November 2023 on in-patient mental healthcare, and a second ministerial summit will be taking place now in November. The summit brought colleagues from NHS organisations across Wales together to discuss the challenges and to commit to firm plans for safety improvements and the long-term transformation of acute mental health care. And then we have recently consulted on our draft mental health and well-being strategy, which will set out those improvements over the next 10 years. But the really crucial part here is that on Tuesday 1 October, my colleague the Minister for Children and Social Care will be launching the single unified safeguarding review in Wales. This has received extra resource and clinical leadership, which will drive the change. The key part, which relates to your question, is that this process will remove the need for multiple reviews when any life is lost or significantly impacted through abuse, neglect or violence. And for every review, practitioner-led learning events and the use of what is being considered a world-leading Wales safeguarding repository will ensure targeted identification of learning and key themes. Because, as you said, there is not the time to go through each of these and the recommendations. That will also include those critical matters relating to mental health homicides. Diolch.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

8. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve the delivery of health services in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ61543

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I met the chair of the health board this week and discussed the health board's achievements, including the 80 per cent reduction in the number of patient pathways waiting over two years since March 2022, the improvements in mental health performance, and challenges related to fragile services, primary care and financial balance.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I'm glad that you've mentioned waiting times, because one area of improvement that is very much needed is in relation to bone density scans, or DEXAs, as they're more commonly known, as constituents have contacted me to say that they have been waiting for over a year to receive their results. I appreciate that specialist scans can take some time to gather results and to be fully interpreted, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that a wait of over 12 months is just unacceptable. Patients awaiting results are understandably frustrated, and it's crucial that they get their results as quickly as possible. Therefore, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that patients who are waiting for the results of their DEXA scan are not having to wait over a year for it, and what reassurances can you offer to patients that this is something that the Welsh Government will prioritise, going forward?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm sorry to hear of the Member's constituents' experience of that, which is unacceptable. He will know the priority that this Government attaches to reducing waiting times. There are clear targets against which we expect health boards to perform, but the service is under incredible demand, and also the pressure of resources. But he will know from exchanges in the Chamber today, and over the course of the last week, just how important this is to us, and the fresh approaches that we are hoping to bring to it. There is, as I mentioned in an answer to a question earlier, some level of variability across Wales in relation to some of the waiting times targets. I would like to see less variability, and I would like to see a situation where if we had the best performance applied across all health boards across all measures, we would be making good progress towards our targets. But please give your constituents reassurance that we take this very seriously indeed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item would have been item 3, but no topical questions were accepted today.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and the first statement this afternoon is from Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

September is Gynaecological Cancer Awareness Month. In Wales, around 1,200 people are diagnosed with gynaecological cancer every year, and 470 people die. The five most common types are cervical, ovarian, endometrial, vaginal and vulval. Different gynaecological cancers have different symptoms. They can include bloating, pelvic pain and bleeding between periods. Some cancers can present late, such as ovarian cancer, with non-specific symtpoms. Despite the prevalence of these cancers in Wales, women often feel that they are not listened to by healthcare professionals. Symptoms can often be dismissed, underestimated and misdiagnosed, which can lead to cancers progressing unnecessarily. This was the experience of Claire O'Shea, who was misdiagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome when, in fact, she had a rare and aggressive form of uterine cancer.

Claire's cancer diagnosis came two years after first raising her symptoms with her GP. The delay means that Claire now has incurable stage 4 cancer, which has spread to her lungs, liver and hip bone. Because of her own experiences and hearing those of other women, Claire has set up Claire's Campaign to promote change—a change to the culture of dismissing women's voices in healthcare settings, a change to the gender bias seen by many women when they raise concerns attributed to emotional or psychological issues, a change so that women are heard. Diolch.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

This year, Theatr na nÓg, rooted in the Valleys and based in Neath, celebrates its fortieth birthday. The organisation brings to life inspirational stories of Welsh characters who achieve the extraordinary, like their new play The Fight, about Cuthbert Taylor, a boxer from Merthyr Tydfil banned from the British boxing title due to the colour of his skin. Founded in the early 1980s to meet the needs of West Glamorgan communities, the company believes in accessible, high-quality live theatre for all.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Welsh history, the Welsh language and our culture in all of their diversity are central to their productions, from school shows to national tours.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In the last decade, they’ve expanded their reach with UK tours of Tom, Eye of the Storm, a Welsh Shirley Valentine, and Operation Julie. And during the COVID pandemic, they produced online content, including a hit Welsh language Christmas song, 'Hwyl yr Ŵyl', and an Advent calendar for schools, safeguarding the jobs of 158 freelancers on 16 projects.

Throughout this time, the ethos has remained the same—the belief that people of all ages and backgrounds should be able to experience accessible, live theatre of the highest quality that has the power to excite and engage audiences of all ages with stories that have universal appeal. Over 1 million people have experienced a na nÓg production. Pen-blwydd hapus, Theatr na nÓg, may you continue to ignite the imagination of the nation. The people of Neath are indeed fortunate to have a company that's so successful, engaged and of high quality in their community.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I'd like to take the opportunity this afternoon to pay tribute to a very special person form Wrexham, who was tragically killed in Ukraine in August. Ryan Evans was working with Reuters news agency in Kramatorsk in the east of the country, just 16 miles from the front line, when the hotel in which he was staying was hit by a Russian missile. Ryan was a security adviser for Reuters, and was staying at the hotel with a team of fellow journalists. The strike injured many of his team, including, sadly, a Ukrainian cameraman who was left in a coma with life-changing injuries.

As a former pupil of Ysgol Morgan Llwyd in Wrexham, he is fondly remembered by staff and pupils alike. After leaving school, Ryan joined the Royal Welsh regiment at the age of 17, where he served in Iraq as well as Afghanistan, rising to the rank of corporal. Upon leaving the armed forces in 2010, he started working as a close protection officer accompanying British diplomats on missions to many countries including Libya, Tunisia and Syria. More recently, as a close protection specialist, he accompanied journalists into some of the most hostile environments and war zones.

His last trip was one of over 20 that he'd made to Ukraine since the conflict began, always on a mission to ensure the utmost safety of his co-workers. Reuters paid tribute to Ryan, describing him as a world-class security operator. He'd worked extensively in Israel this year, as well as in Gaza and the West Bank, providing protection to journalists. He recently covered security for Reuters staff at the Paris Olympics and he was a trained paramedic, helping injured civilians on numerous occasions.

Sadly, Ryan leaves his widow, Kerrie, and four children, and I’m sure all of us at the Senedd would like to extend our deepest condolences to them and his wider family in their huge and painful loss.

5. Motion to amend Standing Orders: Consent in relation to UK Parliament Bills

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, item 5, is a motion to amend Standing Orders on consent in relation to UK Parliament Bills. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The motion is moved formally. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection, and therefore the motion is agreed.

6. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report—Fourteenth report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 6 is next, a debate on the Standard of Conduct Committee report, 'Fourteenth report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. I call on a member of the committee to move the motion. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Llywydd. As a member of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion.

The committee considered the report of the standards commissioner in relation to a complaint made against Natasha Asghar MS regarding a tweet that used imprecise and inaccurate language when describing the 20 mph speed limit. The Standards of Conduct Committee considered the commissioner's report carefully, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that's appropriate in this case. The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reasons for its recommendation are set out fully in the committee's report.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind Members of the importance of paying close attention to the recommendations of this committee and the findings of the standards commissioner as they relate to the interpretation of the code of conduct and the standards expected of Members more generally.

I would also like to remind Members of their personal responsibility regarding the consideration of any potential interests before participating in committee business. It is incumbent on Members to declare any relevant interest and, where necessary, to excuse themselves from proceedings. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendation. Thank you.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

I can't quite believe that we're standing here today debating the use of the word 'blanket' when there are much bigger issues at hand to be dealing with. But hey-ho, here we are. Having sat on the standards committee, I know how hard all of the Members from various political parties, as well as the Chair, the clerks, work alongside the commissioner tirelessly looking into complaints in relation to Members. However, today, I, Natasha Asghar, solely and respectfully object to the ruling that I have breached three rules within the code of conduct. To say that I brought the Senedd into disrepute by using the word 'blanket', for me, is purely absurd.

Let me be abundantly clear to everyone today: from the get-go, I make no apology whatsoever for standing up for my constituents and residents across Wales when it comes to the Welsh Government's 20 mph speed limit policy. As I have said before, with 97 per cent of former 30 mph roads dropping to 20 mph as a result of this policy, it remains my opinion that this is a blanket approach. And that's just it, Presiding Officer: it's my opinion. That's what I'm trying to get across.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I'm just going to—. Just for Members to be aware, of course, that the standards commissioner has—[Interruption.] Please, I don't want any comments from the side. The standards commissioner and the standards committee have said that the use of the term 'blanket' in the context of the 20 mph policy is imprecise and inaccurate, and that Members should think very carefully about using imprecise and inaccurate words to describe policies. I have, in fact, changed my own mind on the use of the word 'blanket'. I allowed it to be used in this Chamber for a number of months, but once the standards commissioner and the standards committee had ruled that it was an imprecise and inaccurate way of describing the 20 mph policy, I have changed my view and it is not correct to use it in that context in this Chamber any more. That is my view, and I am the Llywydd. I ask you all to respect my view on this, and the view of the standards committee, and I ask you to show that respect today, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

That's fine. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I take my job incredibly seriously. I love my region of south-east Wales and have the utmost respect for the Welsh Parliament as an institution. Presiding Officer, I acknowledge the report, and, once again, as I said, thank the committee and standards commissioner for their time, but I do have to say that I do feel it within myself to be able to stand up against, for this particular policy, for this particular issue. It is something that I’m passionate about personally and professionally as well. So, I want everyone to remain and rest assured that I will continue to tirelessly campaign against this disastrous policy, regardless of others embarking on desperate attempts to stop me, and I hope to be able to move on from this and focus on my job, which I take incredibly seriously. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Chair—. Not the Chair, sorry; a member of the committee to reply to the debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you. I was concerned there that I had a new job. The Chair, of course, is in the Chamber.

I'd like to thank Natasha for her comments and I do note them of course. Our report is clear and is presented with cross-party recommendations, so I call on the Senedd to accept the recommendation. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Was there an objection? No objection.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: 20mph speed limits

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 7 is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, and, believe it or not, this is on 20 mph speed limits. The debate is to be presented by Natasha Asghar. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer; you did catch me slightly off-guard there.

When I promised the people of Wales that I would stand up for their feelings and be their voice in the Senedd in my role as shadow transport Minister, I meant it—sometimes even to the point where it gets me into trouble, as you've all clearly seen. It’s been a year since the roll-out of this policy and, despite Labour Ministers telling us all that the people of Wales would eventually get used to it and that the uproar surrounding it was pretty much down to people just not liking it, I think we now know for sure that this was purely a firefighting move in an attempt to downplay public sentiment. I have said on multiple occasions that the anger and frustration towards the policy aren’t going anywhere. And this statement isn’t just my opinion; it is backed up by the fact that a recent YouGov poll has proven that seven out of 10 people still oppose the default 20 mph policy.

Now I would commend the Cabinet Secretary, the new Cabinet Secretary, on his renewed approach—a more pragmatic, sensible stance, with an emphasis on, and I quote him, common sense and taking the public with you, as opposed to telling them what they need to get used to. And whilst I was pleased to see a change in the draconian-style roll-out, including a listening programme to incorporate people’s views, much physical change is yet actually to come to fruition. Just shy of 500,000 signed a petition calling for the policy to be scrapped—the petition that broke all Senedd records and laid bare quite how unpopular this policy actually is. Never in the history of a Welsh Parliament—in fact, this Welsh Parliament—has a listening tour been ignited in Government as a result of such an unpopular, divisive policy, and I think that says it all.

This policy kick started a year of scandal and controversy and potentially the most out-of-touch series of events we’ve seen from Welsh Labour as of yet—£33 million to implement it and a £9 billion hit to the Welsh economy. In fact, this £9 billion figure, in theory, could have indeed footed the bill for the recent NHS staff pay rises and would have therefore helped alleviate this so-called £22 billion black hole that we haven’t stopped hearing about.

Cabinet Secretary, as a direct consequence of this policy over the last year, we have seen an entire village isolated from bus routes, delivery drivers having to work overtime, a record-breaking petition, a cycling race shortened and altered for the first time since its inception in 1981, 10,500 submissions to the councils for roads that should be changed back to being 30 mph, countless protests, and the list just does go on.

We have heard a lot about change since the Labour Party’s general election campaign in May 2024, but you’re going to need more than a tagline to see some change across Wales after 25 years of Welsh Labour around here. But this is just it: what the British people are about to be reminded of are things that the people of Wales have been living with for a quarter of a century and have seen exposed even more so in the past year. ‘You’ll own nothing and be happy’ is the phrase that comes to mind. People are expected to be happy with 20 mph and get used to these huge changes and costly policies when economic inactivity in Wales is the highest in the United Kingdom, educational outcomes in Wales are the lowest in the United Kingdom, the number of Welsh students going to university is indeed falling. One in four people are on waiting lists in Wales, and they are at an all-time high, with seven health boards indeed in special measures. You're constantly cash-strapped as a Government, yet £1.6 billion has been wasted on projects that have never reached the finish line under Labour's watch. Almost one third of children in Wales are living in poverty. Sadly, I could go on. Is this honestly a record the Welsh Labour Government can be proud of? If we continue like this for another 25 years, I sincerely dread to think what Wales is going to look like. Whether it's avoiding scrutiny by comparing Keir Starmer to Donald Trump, or passing the buck down the M4, this Government seriously, sadly, hates accountability.

In this case, the buck has been passed to our already overstretched councils to deal with, and we are yet to discover how the requests for road changes will be looked at, or how they will even come to a decision as to which roads need to be changed and which stay the same. So, Cabinet Secretary, a year on from the roll-out and people across Wales are feeling more disenfranchised than ever before, not listened to, and less inclined to engage with us as politicians on every single level. This is why I make no apology for promoting commonsense politics, 20 mph where it's needed—around schools, around hospitals, places of worship and high streets. It is regrettable that it has taken a public outcry on such a large scale for the guidance to be even looked at or changed, and also regrettable to think that this extra money and time wasted could have all been avoided had the public been consulted to start with on such a large-scale change.

So, as we look back on the year, and forward to the next, we are still eagerly awaiting the results of changes that we were told would make a difference. There is still time to make real change, as you put it, Cabinet Secretary. Give the people what they want, allow their voices to be at the forefront of this policy that affects their day-to-day lives, and please scrap this default 20 mph policy that has swept across Wales. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Llywydd. I move the amendment.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

The revisionism that has been going on during this debate is quite remarkable. After all, there was initial cross-party support for a movement towards 20 mph. This is not a new policy.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Oh no there wasn't.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

It—. We've seen the photos.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Come on. Come on, Members. I can do better than a pantomime, please. Allow Peredur Owen Griffiths to continue.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

It has been implemented in places across Europe, and, as much as they won't want to mention it in their debate, it's been introduced in Conservative councils across England. Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Tories all agreed that more 20 mph roads were appropriate, would bring benefits, and we have realised those benefits. In the first three months of 2024, we've seen a significant reduction in road casualties on 20 mph roads across Wales. Serious injuries and fatalities dropped by 23 per cent, with the total number of people killed or seriously injured on 20 mph and 30 mph roads falling from 101 to 78, compared to last year. Even when including minor injuries, there's a 26 per cent overall reduction in casualties. This has saved our NHS a considerable amount of money. This marks the lowest quarterly figure for road casualties in Wales outside the COVID pandemic period. This shows the positive impact of these speed limits on public safety, our communities and our NHS.

However, what has gone wrong here is this Labour Government's implementation. I regret the way the implementation has happened and the divisive debate that has ensued. It has eroded trust in our relatively new democracy, and it is regrettable. There has been inconsistent implementation on which roads and areas have been impacted most by this policy. The public has legitimate concerns. As an aside, a question that was posed to me recently was why only 10 mph intervals in speed limits were there, and why 5 mph increments were not adopted. And that goes to the implementation of appropriate speed limits in appropriate places.

Understandably, there are strong feelings surrounding the issue because this Government has failed to properly consult and engage with people in Wales. By excluding the local voice from decisions regarding their communities, it was set up to be flawed. It is frustrating that there were such—

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Will the Member give way?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Yes.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you. I appreciate what you're saying there, but, then, if you are so concerned about the implementation of this and that the Welsh Government didn't consult properly, why, then, did Plaid Cymru support the policy, knowing that there were issues with the implementation and not consulting with the people of Wales properly?

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

We supported the policy, but then we had the amendment here to say that we needed that consultation locally, and that has, eventually, been done. There was such—. The delay by the Welsh Government in acting on that Plaid Cymru amendment, supported by the Senedd, that empowered communities to review and make further exceptions, as well as a review of the guidelines for local authorities—. As usual, the Welsh Government works best when it does listen to Plaid Cymru. However, how much time, money and frustration would have been saved had Welsh Government acted on this amendment sooner?

We are now slowly moving forward in the right direction. The way the Conservatives have gone about this debate has been hostile and it has sought division. As we provide more voice to local communities to influence the policy in their area, we need to ensure our local authorities are properly resourced. This resource should enable collaboration between communities, local government and Welsh Government, so I urge the Welsh Government to work closely with our local authorities across Wales to ensure this review process is properly resourced and implemented for the benefit of the people of Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport to move formally amendment 2. Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Well, what do we know? We know that reaction time reduces with speed, that stopping distance lengthens with speed—read your highway code—that the higher the speed, the greater the damage to people and a motor vehicle, that road casualty figures have reduced following the introduction of the default 20 mph, that insurance companies are considering reducing premiums due to the reduced speed limit. According to data from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, at traffic speeds of 30 mph to 40 mph, the risk of pedestrian deaths as a result of collision with a vehicle is over five times more than at speeds between 20 mph and 30 mph. There’s consensus among the people I talk to that 20 mph is a suitable speed limit on estate roads and through areas of terraced housing. This is a view strongly held by people who are living on these roads.

When I travel to my office in Morriston, it’s exactly one mile, but the sat nav tells me it will take five minutes, which is an average speed of 12 mph, as it did before the speed limit was reduced. Outside the motorway system, the road system consists of A roads, which are major roads intended to provide large-scale transport links within or between areas and unclassified roads, B roads that are roads intended to connect different areas and to feed traffic between A roads and smaller roads on the network, and unclassified or unnumbered roads, which are smaller roads intended to connect together unclassified roads with A and B roads, often linking housing estates or villages to the rest of the network. These are similar to minor roads on an ordnance survey map, and are sometimes known unofficially as C roads. Some of these roads are under 50m long. Unclassified roads are local roads intended for local traffic. The vast majority of roads in Britain—over 60 per cent of them—fall into this category. Areas of older terraced housing and council estates, or houses that don’t have a drive, mean that people cannot drive safely at over 20 mph. There’s parking on both sides of the road, as people seek to park near their home. Even with newer estates, where there are drives, cars still park on the road, especially where drives are very steep, having a significant slope, or for convenience.

Roads that are main roads, or A and B designated, should be dealt with on their merits, allowing 30 mph unless passing directly in front of an entrance to a school or a shopping area. Whilst individual councils will decide the speed limit on each road, I would hope councils will address these roads.

I was contacted by a constituent who lives in Manselton on a road that is already 20 mph. They accepted that a 20 mph speed limit is needed in residential areas and said that they did not wish for their road to go back to 30 mph, which it had not been for the last 20 years. The talk about 20 mph speed limits as a new invention, never been done before; if you go around areas—and I see people who represent, partly, Manselton—you will see, within Manselton, you’ll see in Hafod, that probably over half—well, actually, over half in Manselton, just under half in Hafod—were 20 mph before we had the movement to default.

But there are people who disagree. I was told by a 23-year-old that, as an experienced driver, he drove to the road conditions, and we should all drive to the road conditions, that we didn’t need speed limits of any kind, 20 mph, 30 mph, or anything. He would drive at the speed that was necessary, because he’d been driving for five years. But if conditions are the same for everyone, why do some vehicles travel at different speeds? I mean, the speed would be the same if everybody drove to the conditions.

My experience when I’ve discussed the issue with people objecting to 20 mph is that it’s usually for a road they do not live on; it’s for another road they drive on. While the default speed limit was previously 30 mph, many roads had the limit reduced to 20 mph, and there are also roads—remember the humps, chicanes, all these other traffic calming measures that existed solely to bring the speed limit down? And what are we seeing? We’re seeing traffic movement at junctions improved, and it’s become easier to cross the road, but certainly, in urban areas outside A and B roads, 20 mph is currently impossible on most of the road length.

What should happen? A full review of the A and B roads. This wouldn’t make them all return to 30 mph. Many such roads are not now 20 mph anyway. There are however roads that would benefit from an increase in speed. I’ve asked for the speed on Llangyfelach Road from Rheidol Avenue to Cwm Level lights to return to 30 mph. I’ve also asked for the Clydach Road from the Midland Hotel to Plas Cadwgan roundabout to return to 30 mph. These are the only two roads in Swansea East that I believe would benefit from a speed increase, as 20 mph is right for most urban roads, but it should not have been brought in for A and B roads at the same time it was brought in for urban roads.

But if you want to test it, have an area, you pick one of the areas you represent, and do away with the speed limits on the roads there. They say speed doesn’t matter, so do away with them. Suggest that, dare I say, Pembrokeshire does not have a speed limit and everybody can drive at 60 mph. Let’s see if you actually believe it.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I’m pleased to be taking part in this debate this afternoon. It’s now over a year since the 20 mph was introduced in September last year. Perhaps we should take a moment to reflect and recollect the events of the past year since the law was introduced, and I’m happy to give you a summary.

The policy was the brainchild of the former climate change Minister Lee Waters, who’s in the Chamber this afternoon, who's admitted that mistakes were made and a more commonsense approach was needed. We’ve also heard from the First Minister that the way the 20 mph law was implemented created problems, in her own words. The new Cabinet Secretary for transport acknowledged that some roads should never have been changed to 20 mph. And we know from the Welsh Government’s own research that the policy will cost the Welsh economy £9 billion. And of course, the nearly 0.5 million petition signatures calling for the default 20 mph to be repealed. A YouGov poll found that 70 per cent of Welsh people opposed the 20 mph speed limit change. So, if the policy has no support from the Welsh public and lacks support from a cohort of Welsh Government Ministers, why continue to save face, clinging to this policy that no-one, including those who oversaw its introduction, agrees was a success from its beginning in this Chamber to its roll-out across the country?

The impact on businesses across Wales has been severe. We know from the tourism barometer that tourists are being put off travelling and staying in Wales because of the 20 mph speed limit change. Deliveries are taking longer; emergency service response times are poorer, if they could get any poorer; and bus services have been disrupted, including an Arriva Cymru service in my consistency that had to remove stops from its route to maintain punctuality—the most notable one being the Tweedmill factory outlet in St Asaph. I'm pleased that's to be restored, but there are still other bus stops that remain excluded from the bus timetable for only this reason, and that was quoted by Arriva Buses Wales themselves. So, 20 mph is but one of a series of Welsh Government policies that are holding Wales’s economic prosperity 'sausage', or should I say 'hostage'?

From 20 mph to the tourism tax—[Laughter.] It took a minute. From 20 mph to the tourism tax, to slashing business rates relief, the Welsh Government behaves as if it’s deliberately trying to sabotage the Welsh economy. The forecasted £9 billion that the 20 mph policy will cost the Welsh economy is hardly in keeping with Keir Starmer’s plan for growth.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Will you take an intervention?

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Yes, please.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

How much does the Welsh economy get affected by accidents on roads that slow traffic down? As somebody who spent an hour travelling along the A4234 yesterday, I have a personal interest.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I wouldn’t have those figures at hand, but maybe if you liaise with your local health board, Mike, down in Swansea then they might be able to enlighten you with some more figures around that, but I don't have them on me, unfortunately, so I wouldn't be giving you an accurate answer there.

The former Minister for climate change also claimed previously that the default 20 mph would reduce pollution where there is smoother driving behaviour, but the evidence demonstrates that the opposite is true, with air quality sensors detecting an increase in nitrogen emissions at 50 per cent of locations. Local authorities have received thousands of requests to revert 20 mph roads back to 30 mph, but the requests are not being met. The new guidance from the Welsh Government issued to local authorities provided false hope that there would be a more commonsense approach, and this has not been forthcoming. Still, only 0.6 per cent of roads in Denbighshire are exempt from the 20 mph speed limit, and I have raised this in the Senedd and with Denbighshire County Council, but there appears to be no intention of making the exemptions that people want. I've put that partially down to the political make-up of the council these days, and then also the complexities of navigating the Welsh Government's guidance on that. So, I think it's two-fold in many ways in that respect.

So, the initial consultation back in March 2022 that rejected 20 mph was ignored, feedback from trials was ignored, the research from Belfast showing a poor evidential base was ignored, and the 0.5 million people who signed the petition to repeal 20 mph were, indeed, ignored. People do not like having their freedoms restricted in the name of keeping them, and despite the First Minister making clear that her relationship with Sir Keir Starmer is as close to Donald Trump, they certainly share the same nanny-stateist mindset. If the First Minister is serious about being a listening Government, I'd advise that she should listen to the 70 per cent of Welsh people and repeal this damaging unpopular policy, rather than just PR stunts. Thank you very much, and I look forward to hearing the rest of the debate. Thank you.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Llywydd, I've believed for a long time, and still believe, that a default 20 mph policy is the right one, and I believe that the Welsh Government was right to introduce it, and the review is also the correct thing to do. And following that review, I am sure some adjustments will be made, reflecting the views of local people as to which roads should revert back to 30 mph, and obviously we will see the outcome of that exercise in short order.

I do think, Llywydd, that it's fairly extraordinary that we've heard from two Welsh Conservative Members with very little—in fact, I'm not sure any—mention of road safety. It's so obviously important, isn't it, that a policy introduced primarily to improve road safety should be viewed and examined in the light of what's happened since in terms of road safety? But obviously there are some inconvenient facts there, in the post-implementation experience, as far as the Welsh Conservatives are concerned.

So, we have two quarters of data now, post implementation of the default 20 mph limit, compared to the similar period before commencement, which shows lower speeds, fewer casualties and reduced vehicle damage claims. That's some pretty strong evidence, I would suggest, in terms of the success of the policy in lowering speed, preventing accidents and reducing deaths and casualties. So, in Wales then, for that six-month period following roll-out, compared to the previous period before commencement, taking 20 and 30 mph roads together, we see casualties reduce from 1,191 to 840—a fall of 29 per cent. And, at the same time, casualties on other roads also reduced, which I think speaks to the experience in Bristol and Brighton, for example, where they found that having extensive 20 mph speed limits reduced speed generally, because it changes driver behaviour generally on all roads, with the obvious benefits that follow from that.

It is extraordinary, isn't it, that we've heard virtually nothing around that post-implementation experience in terms of road safety, in terms of deaths, casualties and collisions from the Welsh Conservatives? I'm sure that people following this debate today, and what we've heard from the Welsh Conservatives up to this point today, will be struck by the lack of mention of what may be seen by many as inconvenient facts for those Welsh Conservatives.

When it comes to some of the financial aspects, Llywydd, we know from esure, the insurance company—we all know that insurance companies are hard-headed, they operate in that real world of finances and financial advantage for those that are in business, to make a profit—they are reducing policy premiums by some £50 for those of their customers who are in these extensive 20 mph limit areas. It's estimated that if 20 mph was rolled out right across the UK in the way that it has been in Wales, that would result in some £1.4 billion-worth of savings for motorists who would be affected in that way. In Wales, that would result in savings of tens of millions of pounds. I give way.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, John Griffiths. I do appreciate you accepting the intervention. You speak about insurances. We've had thousands of people across Wales who have received tickets, and as a consequence of those tickets, points. I'm sure you can appreciate when you're talking about insurance claims, one thing that I think, Presiding Officer, a lot of people fail to understand is that insurance companies, if you have points on your licence, will never lower your rate, it will only go up. So, there are thousands of people across Wales who have got tickets for going over the 20 mph limit, however that may be. But talking about insurances coming down is not going to be evident for so many people across Wales because they're only going to go up.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Well, that's a pretty extraordinary intervention, really, isn't it? People right across Wales and right across the UK break all sorts of speed limits, unfortunately, and of course they face the consequences when it comes to the law of the land and insurance premiums. Obviously, that's the case generally for speed limits. We expect people to observe the law and observe speed limits, and I would hope that the Members opposite would expect the same sort of behaviour also.

Could I just close, Llywydd, by mentioning the need for enforcement and greater enforcement, and we will see that as we proceed, coming to the points that the Member has just mentioned? Of course we expect compliance with speed limits. I would like to mention one of my constituents, Clare Kenney who lives on Caerleon Road in Newport. In the section of the road that she lives on, there is a 20 mph limit. She has asked for greater enforcement, because when monitoring took place, it showed that there was a reduction in speed, which was very welcome, but that there were still motorists exceeding that 20 mph limit, and she rightly expects the enforcement that at least some of the Members opposite seem to object to. She wants her children to be able to walk to school safely, to be able to play safely and for elderly people and more vulnerable people on that stretch of Caerleon Road, where there are shops, bus stops and housing right up onto the road, to be able to live their lives with the greater road safety that 20 mph delivers. So, I mentioned that example because, although there will be this review that we all know about, Llywydd, we must maintain that 20 mph limit on those roads where that road safety benefit has been delivered and must be delivered as we move forward.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Determined to pursue its road safety policies, the Welsh Government ignored all inconvenient evidence to the contrary. It dismissed the authoritative independent 20 mph research study published by the UK Department for Transport in November 2018, which found that the speed at which people drive is influenced more by the look and feel of the road rather than whether a 20 or 30 mph limit is in place, and that there was no significant safety outcome in terms of collisions and casualties in residential areas based on the post-implementation data. Following this, they also dismissed the 2022 study from Queen's University Belfast, Edinburgh University and the University of Cambridge that found that reducing speed limits from 30 to 20 mph had little impact on road safety. They claimed in September—

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Will you give way?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Oh, yes. One intervention.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

You keep misrepresenting the Northern Ireland Belfast study, which was not based on a set of 30 mph roads. It was based on a set of existing 20 mph roads, and what they said is an area-wide speed limit, like the one we introduced, would be more effective, which is what we've done. You keep misclaiming what this report says.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

They found that reducing speed limits from 30 mph to 20 mph had little impact on road safety. You dismissed that.

They claimed in September 2023 that, in Spain, which already had 20 mph as their default position, deaths and accidents had fallen despite the Spanish interior Minister having stated the preceding January that, comparing the figures for 2022 with 2019, the last pre-pandemic year without mobility restrictions there, 2022 represented more deaths than in 2019, and that, when it comes to cyclists, the number of fatalities also increased. Although subsequent road accident data for Spain during 2023 did show a slight decrease in fatalities, this was a reduction of just three for the whole of 2022. And vulnerable users, including motorcyclists, pedestrians and cyclists, experienced a 9 per cent rise in fatalities.

To say that the indiscriminate 20 mph speed limit has been unpopular would be an understatement. As we know, 469,571 people signed the Senedd petition, 'We want the Welsh Government to rescind and remove the disastrous 20mph law', the largest petition in the Senedd's history, and Welsh local authorities have received requests for thousands of roads to revert from 20 mph to 30 mph. A separate petition, launched in Buckley, Flintshire, the north Wales 20 mph pilot area, reached nearly 86,000 signatures. A survey of North Wales Live readers found that just 12 per cent of respondents support Labour's plans to change the default speed limit in residential areas to 20 mph, with 88 per cent opposing the plans.

When the Welsh Government's 20 mph default speed limits were put to the people in September 2023, opposition was 61 per cent. Just two months later in December 2023, a YouGov ITV Wales poll found that opposition had risen to 70 per cent. With the one-year anniversary of implementation of the 20 mph legislation in Wales approaching, a YouGov poll last month showed that seven in 10 Welsh people still opposed this.

In June, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales issued a written statement in which he said that new road collision data shows that casualties have reduced on roads since the introduction of the new 20 mph speed limits in September last year. What he didn't say was that the new data he quoted for the last three months of 2023, compared with the same period in 2022, actually showed that, even with the limited exceptions to the default 20 mph limits applied by local authorities acting in accordance with Welsh Government exceptions criteria, the number of people killed or seriously injured on 20 mph roads had risen by 800 per cent, from under 5 per cent to 36 per cent of the total, whilst the number killed or seriously injured on 30 mph roads had fallen by 88 per cent, from 49 per cent to just 5 per cent of the total, with the number of motorcyclists and cyclists killed or seriously injured both increasing. Further, overall road casualties had increased by over 13 per cent.

Although the Welsh Government has called recent figures showing a 17 per cent fall in people killed or seriously injured on 20 mph and 30 mph roads in the first six months after the limit was introduced encouraging, they failed to mention that the number killed or seriously injured on 20 mph roads had risen from 4 per cent to 34 per cent of the total, despite their repeated assurances that 20 mph roads would provide a sanctuary of safety, whilst the number on 30 mph roads had fallen from 47 per cent to just 6 per cent of the total. And they failed to mention that the overall number of people killed or seriously injured on our roads has increased by 10 per cent.

Before the default 20 mph limit came into force, I warned that switching 30 mph limits to 20 mph limits would transfer the share of road casualties from one to the other, whilst also displacing drivers, and therefore road casualties, onto the wider road network, and this data demonstrates that this is happening.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I think, a year on, it's fair to say that the 20 mph policy has been much criticised, but it's a policy that is succeeding in achieving its outcomes. The data so far shows that average speeds are down, as we said they would. Collisions on all roads are at their lowest since the COVID lockdowns. Casualties are down by 32 per cent, which is the single most effective road safety intervention that has been made. And lives have been saved: six fewer deaths in the first six months compared to the year before.

The Conservatives say that the policy has been disastrous. I think that these are results that we can be proud of. Has our approach been perfect? No, it has not. I commend the Cabinet Secretary for all his work in the last six months to engage with communities and to apply common sense where it is needed. Once that process is complete, I hope that the police can start to enforce those areas where speeds are not coming down, and that we can all get behind the message that on streets where people and traffic mix, it should be a little bit slower and a whole lot better.

I am interested in the Conservatives’ plan to scrap the speed limit and in their alternative. Natasha Asghar says that 20 mph should apply on roads where there is a large pedestrian activity, such as outside busy places of worship, schools, playgrounds and high streets, hospitals, or places where other vulnerable road users may be encountered—and she confirms that from her position. They call that a commonsense approach, whereas the approach supported by two-thirds of Senedd Members is characterised as draconian.

So, let’s compare their approach and our approach. The Tories say that the speed limit should be 20 mph outside hospitals. Our guidance says that 20 mph should apply within 100m of hospitals. The Tories favour 20 mph outside schools and playgrounds. The guidance says that 20 mph should apply within 100m of any educational setting. So far, so good. The Tories support 20 mph on high streets. The guidance says that we expect streets within 100m of retail premises to be 20 mph. The Tories want 20 mph outside places of worship and places where other vulnerable road users may be encountered. Our guidance says that 20 mph is appropriate close to community centres, which includes churches, and within 100m of residential premises.

So, there is no difference of substance. The difference is purely about politics. It’s purely about opportunism. Support for 20 mph in this Chamber started with a Conservative. It was David Melding who did the running originally, with the support of Tory colleagues. When we brought the report of the expert taskforce to the Senedd, which recommended that we take a default speed limit approach—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Will you take an intervention?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Let me make some progress. It had the support of the Tory leader at that time, and the bulk of the Tory MSs. It was only when they sensed an opportunity to turn this into a wedge issue that they changed their position. They now say that they want to scrap the law that has resulted in a 32 per cent fall in casualties. Darren.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm very grateful to you for taking the intervention. I was the policy director at the time that these matters were discussed, and I can assure you that it has never been the policy of the Welsh Conservative Party to support default 20 mph speed limits. What had been the case was that, in certain communities, members of the public were asking for 20 mph to be the default in their estates, and there were some occasions where that was supported by individual MSs.

I campaigned for 20 mph speed limits outside a couple of local schools in my own constituency, but I have never voted for default 20 mph speed limits. Some of the Members on these benches voted to support a pilot proceeding in order that they could be better informed about whether this was the right approach. And of course, when the evidence was published on the outcome of those pilots, they made it clear that that was not something that they supported—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you. Lee Waters to continue.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

It's a matter of public record that the 20 mph taskforce report, which came to this Chamber and had the support of the bulk of Conservative Members—excluding Darren Millar—recommended a default speed limit approach, and that was supported by two thirds of the Members of this Senedd, including a number of the Conservatives who are here today. That is a matter of fact.

You are now saying that you want to scrap the law, even though I can see no discernible difference between your alternative and ours. You want all the signs that you said we wasted money on to be pulled down. You say the legal orders that councils have worked hard to put in place should be ripped up. And instead of having one simple process to cover a whole area, they want to see a brand new legal order for every street—so, a new traffic regulation order for every road where there's a school, hospital, place of worship, playground, high street, and place where other vulnerable road users may be encountered. Each of these orders, Llywydd, would have to be drafted afresh, each one consulted on, each one passed through a separate process. And bear in mind, these cost £15,000 each—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I can't hear the contribution. Can we hear it in its detail and in full, please? Lee Waters.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

They want a new road traffic regulation order on all of these roads, at £15,000 each, and they say that we're the ones wasting money. Far from a bonfire of regulations, their commonsense approach is a confetti cannon of red tape splurged across Wales. The real difference between us is that we are putting saving lives before politics. The real difference is that we have not set out to confuse or mislead. The real difference is we've not been dishonest or demonstrated moral turpitude, as the standards commissioner has found against the spokesperson for the Conservatives. And the real difference is, because of our approach, casualties are down by 32 per cent. This Christmas, Llywydd, there will be families who get to sit down together, around the dinner table, that would not have been able to had the Conservatives succeeded in blocking the change. That's the difference between us.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

The default 20 mph speed limit across the majority of residential roads in Wales has faced some of the most significant criticism to legislation I have ever witnessed. What was intended to improve road safety and reduce emissions has instead sparked widespread frustration, condemnation and opposition from the public, our local businesses and local authorities. Thirty-three million pounds has been spent on its implementation, which, as you can imagine, has angered those who feel that these moneys should have instead gone into our failing health service, or into our education budgets to fund the woeful shortage of teachers.

One of the fundamental issues with its implementation was the distinct lack of consultation and engagement with those it would be affecting, i.e. our motorists, our carers, our workers, our residents, our emergency services, and, of course, our local transport systems. Such is the reputation of this very flawed legislation, there are now reports that visitors are in decline, for fear that they could be fined or gain points on their licence. And if you don't believe me, speak to the hospitality industry, who keep being asked, even before people make bookings, and then sometimes people are cancelling those bookings.

In defence of this policy coming forward, the then Minister Lee Waters passed the buck of responsibility for doing it to our local authorities charged with amending the road speeds and the appropriate signage. I don't condone this, but many of these signs were defaced or vandalised, such was the anger and frustration from people who have never ever engaged in any criminal activity.

Some of the problems relayed to me by constituents are that they, when sticking to the limit, are being aggressively tailgated by very frustrated drivers trying to navigate the constant changes in speed limit. I've got a road in Aberconwy that is 60 mph, then 40 mph, then 20 mph, then 60 mph, and people are really finding it difficult. Some are even ignoring the new restrictions, raising concerns that adherence to Welsh law is in decline, and that roads may be becoming more dangerous. There is even now doubt around whether the supposed reduction in emissions has happened, and that they have actually increased, due to many driving at a lower gear ratio. So, I might ask the Welsh Government: what have you done about this?

In north Wales, the 4 bus route between Bangor and Holyhead requires an extra 11 minutes in each direction, while buses 14 and 15, between Llysfaen and Conwy, need an extra five minutes each way. Indeed, Arriva have had to alter some bus routes in Aberconwy, causing a mountainside village to be completely cut off from the main bus route.

Only last week, I highlighted to the Cabinet Secretary for transport that this legislation has a shocking reputation across the UK. In May, the Cabinet Secretary made a statement explaining that guidance was needed for which roads needed to be exempt, and that he would be supporting local authorities in doing that. The reports the next day in the media were 'Cabinet u-turn', or something, on this policy. Well, that was wrong. However, we are a year on from its implementation, and, despite the warm words from Ken Skates, we still have a default 20 mph on many of our roads.

The Welsh Government have already admitted the policy was badly implemented, and we are now in a situation where over 10,000 requests have been received by our hard-pressed local authorities up and down Wales, with over 1,500 stretches of road to be changed, yet nothing is being done. The petition opposing the policy has become the most signed in the history of this Senedd, reaching 469,571, and signatures are still going on there. A £34 million policy forced unwillingly on Welsh motorists will now see another £5 million spent to revert roads incorrectly changed to 20 mph, with councils across Wales that are already on their knees financially forced to clean up the mess left behind by you, Lee Waters, and by this Welsh Government. It's even left one ex-Minister's reputation in tatters, forcing him to resign from the post following the shocking backlash of the policy. You've even come out saying that the Welsh Government's messaging following the u-turn is completely botched, explaining that motorists are saying, 'It's all changing in September, so we don't need to bother even sticking to 20 mph.'

It is time for change, Members, and, anybody watching, you'll note that people are coming back in—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet, you need to conclude now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

—on the Labour and Plaid benches, but they've been largely absent during most of this—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet, you need to conclude, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes. It is time for change and for a slick, quick, commonsense rollback, thereby allowing our motorists a choice and the freedom to enjoy their liberty.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet, conclude, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I implore you to vote with us today. Together, we can reverse the current direction of travel and get Wales back moving. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

We carried out a speed limit review when I was a cabinet member in Flintshire. You have to do them so often because of new developments, accidents and petitions, local petitions. It took about five years to do, drawing up plans, consulting, writing and advertising legal notices, putting all the signs in place and working through the anomalies, because you do get anomalies. With any major speed limit review, there are anomalies and variables to be worked through afterwards, which could be based on further challenges with accident data and character of the road.

There is no appetite for local authorities, who are the highway authority, to scrap the 20 mph, which has been in place a year, and to start again. They just haven't got the resources. I stand by the north-east Wales authorities who said that the initial guidelines were too strict, limiting what could be made up to 30 mph, a point I made time and time again over, trying to resolve it. They had to evidence that a route is not used by walkers and cyclists, but the Welsh Government criteria did not define how many walkers and cyclists, which they felt they needed. And I felt at the time Welsh Government should have listened to the concerns of local authorities, as they are the delivery bodies of the legislation. So, if they say there is an issue, Welsh Government needs to work with them to resolve the issues at the early stages, as it's happening.

It's the local authorities who must deal with the liability of their decisions, based on interpretation of the legislation. It needs to be as clear as possible should there be a challenge if there's an accident, or if residents question why there is not a similar restriction in the area that they live in. The density of 20 houses within 1 km is too high and needs to be removed, going forward. This was recently agreed by Welsh Government officials and the 20 mph task group, as well as other stakeholders at meetings I attended.

The roll-out of 20 mph and the density issue has been a particular concern in north-east Wales, where there is a lot of inter-urban connectivity and ribbon developments of houses along these arterial routes, which are an issue. You can travel from one town centre to another with the speed limit continually being at 20 mph because of the density of houses built along the road. That's the case from Buckley to Mold, which is why we have a lot of complaints from Buckley. This has also caused an issue for bus timetable compliance in the region, and a return to 30 mph for some of the arterial routes will be welcomed by the industry. We also need to include some roads that haven't been made 20 mph, and I feel they should be.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Will you take an intervention, Carolyn? You list many of the complexities there about local authorities trying to navigate some of the guidance, and obviously there's a disparity between local authorities, and obviously resources is an issue that you've highlighted as well. Would it just be easier if we scrapped it and just went back to 30 mph, because all those complexities would just fade away?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

No, that's—. No. I did say it's a complex issue. It took five years when we did a speed limit review locally, so it would just take too much time to start again, so we need to work with what we have now.

So, a local road that is outside riding for the disabled, there's a blind summit—they would like to have 20 mph there, but it doesn't hit the criteria, because they don't have street lights or the density of houses. So, there are some roads that need to actually be included in the 20 mph, so that needs to be looked at as part of the guidelines going forward, and flexibility. It's the same in Tywyn and by Alyn Waters.

This is now a crucial time. The Welsh Government needs to work with all local authorities—. I think I've got time to take another intervention.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Okay. Thank you very much, Carolyn, because I'm intrigued by your thinking that north-east Wales has got one single set of problems, because, looking at the statistics, Conwy has 149 roads where they've queried it, and then Flintshire has 956, and I just think the difference in two very similar areas has something to do with the competency of the local authority concerned and the amount of effort they've put into analysing what makes for sensible solutions.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Can I just come in? Can I just come in? You're saying competency—thank you. That's not fair, okay. I've worked with highway officers as a cabinet member, and in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire, highway officers need to have black and white legislation for them, as I said, should there be an accident there, so they can stand behind this black and white legislation, it's clear to them, such as—. Like planning officers as well, they need to have black and white guidelines. And they were concerned about applying that flexibility to it, which maybe some areas have. So, Wrexham, Flintshire and Denbighshire, they do have this inter-urban connectivity and a lot of density of houses, so, if that criteria of density is removed, it will make it a lot easier.

This is now a crucial time. The Welsh Government needs to work with our local authorities to reassure highway officers that there has been a change and flexibility can be applied, with those authorities that are concerned about their liability or flexibility, based on the character of the roads—under the old highway legislation, you could make some exceptions, based on the character of the road—as they go through this critical period—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have given you some additional time for the interventions.