Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 13 March 2024

275 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I'd like to inform Members that the next ballot for Members' Bills will be held on 24 April. Information on the process will be circulated to Members shortly. So—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

—get your thinking caps on.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item is questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the pressures that businesses in Wales are facing? OQ60829

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. At a time of great uncertainty, with the UK economy facing a long period of stagnation and, now, recession, I regularly engage with business organisations to take forward our economic mission to maximise the certainty for Welsh businesses, to boost growth, lower inequality and provide support to retain more value within the Welsh economy.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that, Minister. As you will know, research from the Business Barometer from Lloyds Bank Commercial Banking shows that confidence in Welsh businesses fell by 7 per cent during February—over three times the UK average. This is really worrying, as I'm sure, Minister, you would agree. Welsh businesses should not be disadvantaged by operating in Wales, but we know that, in Wales, they are disadvantaged through paying the highest rates of business rates, for instance, in the United Kingdom. Minister do you agree with me that our economy should be a priority and that the next First Minister and his Government should introduce greater support for businesses in Wales to ensure that they are not disadvantaged against their counterparts across the border?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The business environment contains a whole range of different factors. When I became the Minister for Economy, every business organisation was clear about the fact that they wanted to work with the Government here in Wales and the fact that they felt they had a good relationship, particularly having gone through the pandemic together—they recognised the additional levels of support they had.

But they're also very clear about the levers they understood that we have and those that rest with the UK Government. And what they wanted was a Government with stability here in Wales that could be a predictable partner. But they understand, if you like, the rules around what can happen here and the support that is available, and they regularly recognise the additional support that businesses do have here, like the development bank, for example—there isn't an equivalent within the regions of England, and the Federation of Small Businesses regularly call for it—and like the fact that we have clear ambitions about the future of our economy around the transition to net zero being an opportunity for a just transition and the economy of the future.

So, actually, the business environment here in Wales is one where there is a Government that wants to work with businesses, that wants to grow jobs—good jobs in the economy. And they understand our ambitions around fair work as well, and the fact that they're treated as proper partners with the Government, together with other social partners, like trade unions, is an asset, not a disadvantage. I look forward to working with a future UK Government that can provide some of the much-needed stability at a UK level to help grow the economy to provide the good jobs that all of us want to see for our constituents.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Minister, the reality of the Conservative chaos Government in Westminster is increased cost of doing business. It's landed the UK in a recession and it's caused pain for many businesses within Wales. The Welsh Government is rightly focused on doing all it can to protect Welsh businesses and Welsh jobs. [Interruption.] Presiding Officer, we hear chaos on the Conservative benches in this Chamber, as well as the chaos in London.

Businesses in Alyn and Deeside have directly benefited from our unique offer in Business Wales, Minister, and I'm proud that north Wales is home to the UK's first regional bank in the Development Bank of Wales. [Interruption.] Presiding Officer, I can hear shouts, but let me tell them this: the Development Bank of Wales has supported more than 32,000 jobs, over 3,000 businesses, delivered £1.2 billion in economic impact for the Welsh economy, and has introduced the new green business loans fund to help firms lower their energy costs. Minister, do you agree with me that these services are absolutely vital to help Welsh businesses through the UK economic turmoil?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm very pleased that Jack Sargeant mentioned Business Wales, which, again, is unique to Wales as a service that helps to support the economy, that helps to support businesses and the growth in jobs. Businesses that survive and businesses that are grown with help from Business Wales are actually much greater than those that don't. And, indeed, the Development Bank of Wales—the first development bank in any part of the UK—is a real success story. And I see your colleague in north Wales, Ken Skates, on the screen. He helped to create that development bank and bring it into being and it has been a real success story, not just with the figures that the Member has highlighted, but it's additional finance that doesn't exist elsewhere. I think it's a model for other parts of the UK to learn from and recognise. Without that, we'd be more exposed to what's happened with the Tories and in the last 14 years across the economy, and the jobs that it has helped to support would not be there. And, of course, there are many of those jobs in the Member's constituency in Alyn and Deeside. I look forward to a successful future for DBW, for more innovation here in Wales, and a different way to support businesses for a healthy economic future. I think that's a record that this Welsh Labour Government can be very proud of.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I've asked this question before, and I'll keep on asking until—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We don't need to know whether you've asked the question before; the record will show that. Can you just read the question on the order paper, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, okay. Thanks, Llywydd.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

2. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding changing permitted development rights for caravan parks? OQ60835

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

My officials in Visit Wales work closely with officials in the Minister for Climate Change’s planning division on this issue and keep me informed of progress. A consultation on proposed changes is likely to take place later this year.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Oh, that's in stark contrast, Minister, because you told me in November that that consultation process had now closed. You're aware of calls from me, and many within the tourism sector, that the Welsh Government need to increase the number of pop-up days that sites can operate from 28 to 60. This would bring us in line with England and will help our struggling tourism businesses. So, you told me in November that it had closed, and you said then that you would carefully consider the arguments in light of our planning and tourism policies. And you acknowledged the responses calling for this too. Now, I asked the First Minister again in January about this, and he said that consideration would be given to permitted development rights for pop-up sites over the next 12 months. But, clearly, there has to be a balance. Not everybody wants these pop-up sites, but, clearly, there's a greater number asking for them. Over a quarter of a year on now from the closure of the consultation, it isn't right that you've still not made a decision. We're just coming into the spring season now, after a hard winter for these businesses, still recovering from COVID. At what point, Deputy Minister, will you take this matter seriously? It means a lot to so many businesses. And just bring us back—. Twenty-eight days are not enough; 60 make it more viable. Diolch.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for that supplementary, Janet. What I was responding to when you asked this question in November, and then, of course, a different response you had from the First Minister, and from the Minister for Climate Change, who responded to the Petitions Committee debate, were two different things. So, what I answered your question about last November was the consultation following the COVID period, and the decision not to extend the rights following COVID, which they did in England. What I told you at that time was that that particular consultation had closed. What the Minister for Climate Change is doing, however, is looking at a number of strategic priorities that she has in the year coming, and a consultation on proposed changes to extending the 28 days is likely to take place later in the year, alongside other priorities, which are electric vehicle charging, air-source heat pumps and vending machines. So, the situation now is different to the time when you asked me the question back in November. But let me be absolutely clear: this is a matter for the Minister for Climate Change, not for me. This is not a piece of tourism legislation; this is legislation in relation to the planning of regulations, which are rightly the responsibility of the Minister for Climate Change, and not for the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from the spokespeople now. The Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, this is probably the last time you'll address the Chamber in the role as economy Minister, and so, of course, it's only appropriate that we reflect back on your time in the job. Now, your department is responsible for creating conditions for business growth here in Wales and helping create employment opportunities. Therefore, can you tell us how many jobs have been created since you came into post?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

No. I don't carry those figures around in my head. What I do know, though, is that we have a really challenging environment for businesses here in Wales. As I set out in response to your colleague Peter Fox, we're in a period of sustained flatlining in terms of the UK economy, then a period of recession, and we're not immune to that recession. It comes at the end of 14 long years of the UK Government following a policy of austerity. It follows the challenges to our trading environment of leaving the European Union and the deal that's then been done. And the UK stands out from other competitor economies in not faring as well in recovering from the global shocks that have taken place. I do, however, retain some optimism for the future, based on opportunities we have in Wales, but also based on the fact that there must be a general election in the not too distant future, and I am optimistic about there being a UK Government that has stability at its core and is able to keep its promises and to help grow the UK economy in a way that is desperately needed.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, clearly, Minister, you don't know how many jobs have been created, which is no surprise because you haven't bothered to set any job creation targets during your time as Minister. This is lazy politics, Minister, and, sadly, it's a fact that Wales has one of the lowest employment rates of the 12 nations and regions of the UK, which is nothing to be proud of. Now, job insecurity seems to be a real problem in several sectors at the moment, and we've seen you being extremely vocal in support of protecting jobs in the Welsh steel sector, for example. By contrast, we've seen absolutely nothing from you in relation to jobs in the farming sector, a sector that will be crippled if the Welsh Government pushes ahead with its sustainable farming scheme proposals. The Welsh Government's own economic impact assessment shows that there could be an 11 per cent cut in labour on Welsh farms, which is the equivalent of losing 5,500 jobs based on current employment levels. That same modelling shows a £125 million hit to output from the sector and a loss of £199 million to farm business incomes. So, Minister, we've quite rightly heard you fight to support workers in the steel sector, but we're yet to see you fighting to protect jobs in the agricultural sector. Why is that?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, there are, I think, two broad points to make in response. The first, of course, is that, as the Member knows, the lead Minister for the sustainable farming scheme is Lesley Griffiths, and she has lead responsibility for the economy as it relates to agriculture, food and drink. And, actually, of course, food and drink has been a success story for the Welsh economy in the last decade, and more a point that is regularly made in this Chamber but never, perhaps, I think, given the recognition it deserves from all sides. When it comes to the consultation around the future of the sustainable farming scheme, the economic assessment is not the current one that is out for consultation, and the consultation that's just finished will then look at all of the responses that have come in, and it's important that people understand that a decision has not been made. That's why it's important to hear what people have to say about how the scheme can be improved, because, as you've heard not just from the First Minister, but from Lesley Griffiths herself as well, the primary objective is how we help farmers to keep on producing food and drink in a sustainable manner to make sure there is a living to be made and we get the food and drink we want, and, indeed, the food and drink that goes into exports, which, as I say, have been a substantial success story, and that that is done—and this is the second part—in a way where the agricultural sector makes its contribution towards the climate and nature emergencies we face, as, indeed, all sectors of the economy must, as, indeed, all public services must as well. My colleague the Minister for health is making changes in a way that sustainability works in the health service, because our NHS is actually one of the largest emissions sectors, if you think about the age of some of our stock and some of our buildings. This is a whole-society challenge, and it's how we have a sustainable process with the resource that we have available to us to make sure that farmers can carry on earning a living, and producing high-quality food and drink, and balancing the needs of nature and climate with that.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Llywydd, we're really getting a real insight into how the next Government will operate if he's elected First Minister next week. The reality is that this Government does not understand or care about rural communities, and your lack of interest or support for the Welsh farming sector speaks absolute volumes. And it's not just in rural communities that the Welsh Government is failing when it comes to the economy, is it? Let's have a little rundown of some of your greatest hits, shall we: economic inactivity levels are higher than the UK average; the employment rate is lower than the UK average; business deaths in Wales continue to exceed business births; business confidence has fallen to 25 per cent; one in nine workers in Wales are in secure work; and Welsh workers take home the smallest wage packets in the UK. This is your legacy, Minister: a record of failure. Hardly a stronger, fairer, greener Welsh economy, is it, Minister?

And is it not the case that this Government has run out of steam and ideas, which is why it's spent more time creating more politicians in Cardiff Bay instead of creating conditions for economic growth? And, therefore, what reassurances can you possibly offer to anyone living outside of the Cardiff Bay bubble that you actually understand the economic challenges that Wales faces, given your record and lack of action as economy Minister?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I understand the politics in the Chamber and I understand why the Member makes the points that he makes. When it comes to rural Wales, if you ask farmers or rural communities whether they view the scheme in England as something that they want to see, there is a very clear and pretty robust refusal to contemplate having the same scheme that his colleagues in England are under. We are working with and listening to agricultural communities here, and I can actually say this as someone who spent many hours as a child on farms, the son of a vet and the son of a farmer as well.

I look forward to working with communities across Wales in whatever role I hold in the future. And when it comes to the challenges we face in the economy here in Wales, we're not immune to what happens across the border, the choices made by the UK Government. We're not immune to the aggressive attempt to undermine our powers and responsibilities here in Wales, often cheered on by the UK Government. The UK Government's actions are cheered on by Tories in this Chamber. Cutting across and undermining actions on adult literacy, numeracy, on skills acquisition, taking away money from Wales with hardly a whimper of protest from the Welsh Tories as over £1 billion has been taken out of Wales from former EU funds. That money could and should have been used to support the economy here in Wales in a way that would be successful for the future. If the Member doesn't believe me, he should go and have a word with the Chair of the economy committee, which has actually undertaken a review now and in the past on the way we used those former European funds to help support the economy here in Wales.

I do agree there is a Government that has run out of steam, ideas and indeed decency. The sooner we have a general election to sweep them out of office, the better for Wales, the better for our economic prospects. I look forward to knocking doors here in Wales to make sure we deliver a healthy number of Labour representatives to make sure that happens.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. No doubt a surprise to the Minister, I'll continue with the theme of potentially this being his last economy questions session. I was wondering if you could give me a quintessential Vaughan Gething economy policy. What is 'brand Vaughan Gething, economy Minister'?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm not here to have a brand that's personal, I'm here to do a job on behalf of the Welsh Government and the people of Wales. It's always been very clear that my interest is in how we have more jobs and better jobs and the conditions for that to happen. We've actually been fighting against a UK Government that should have been on the side of wanting the economy to work. The stability we haven't had, the investment choices we haven't had. Just take as an example one of the slightly more positive aspects of the budget: seeing the purchase of the Horizon site. Actually, because there's been so much chaos within the UK Government, we haven't had the stability to make choices. The number of different energy and security Ministers, the number of different science Ministers I've met. That choice could have been made earlier. We could have already started a generation of small modular reactors with a clear choice at Trawsfynydd, and we could have had certainty around what the future will be for Wylfa. It's a huge opportunity for the economy of north Wales. That's about stability, about having a plan. We've had to work with a UK Government that cannot and will not provide. And as I said to Paul Davies, it's been much more interested in trying to attack and undermine our powers. So, we have been hamstrung by a UK Government going in the wrong direction. My view is that we do have a vision for the future where more jobs and better jobs can be created, and we can meet our obligations to the climate emergency that surrounds us.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Well, I listened very carefully there and didn't hear any specific new policies that you've enacted since becoming the economy Minister. If anything, it sounded almost managerial. So, am I to take from that that Vaughan Gething's brand is that of a manager? I will give it to you, that answer was quintessentially Vaughan Gething—lots of words, nothing new. The reality is that very little has changed since your predecessor was in your role.

Now, of course, you'll point to your economy missions at some point, but, let's be honest, very little detail there, heavy on principles, light on targets and pathways, nothing to measure success and nothing new, no matter how you dress it up, because Welsh Government were supposedly prioritising these missions already. So, I'm finding it hard to see what improvements we've seen to the economy during your time as the Minister. Now, the Minister will leave his post while Wales's economy continues to rank among the lowest of the UK's devolved nations and English regions. Paul Davies gave a list, let's add productivity to that list: consistently the lowest or second lowest of the UK's nations and regions. So, it begs the question, is this a taste of what to expect if you are successful on Saturday—more of the same?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Actually, of course, there are a number of things that have happened positively. I'm being honest about the picture that we face with the UK Government moving in the wrong direction. If you look at, for example, productivity, over the course of devolution we have made real progress on productivity. The challenge is that, even though we've caught up to the rest of the UK, there's still a gap. What you now see, right across the UK, is that the fall in economic activity post pandemic is a real challenge in every part of the UK, including here in Wales. It makes the case that to have a settled view on how our powers are respected and us having the resources to use makes a difference, because using those powers to invest in the skills of people is part of what has made a big difference in improving productivity, working alongside businesses to do that.

And if you think about two different aspects of that, part of the reason we're seeing success in the growth of the semiconductor cluster is a clear vision that the Welsh Government has led in bringing together academia, business and local government and other partners. There's a view on the skills already in the workforce and an understanding that this Government wants to further invest in the skills of the workforce that is here already today, as well as those who are yet to be in the world of work. And that confidence is recognised by people who are prepared to invest significant amounts of money already, and I'm confident we'll see more of that, not just with the good news about the purchase by Vishay of Newport Wafer Fab, not just KLA, but I think there is more to come within the cluster. That comes because the Welsh Government is part of how that confidence is engendered.

And when it comes to making sure that people do have a future, I'm very proud to have led the work on the young person's guarantee. If that were not in place, you can guarantee, I'm afraid, that there would be thousands of young people who would not be in education, employment or training. So, these are real interventions that will make a difference. I want us to be able to do more. That requires us to have a different set of resources available to us, it requires us to have our powers respected, with clarity on what we do without the UK Government, what we do together with partners outside of this place, including local government, businesses and trade unions, and where we need to be partners for success.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

3. Will the Minister provide an update on plans to improve the economy in the city of Bangor? OQ60807

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The Welsh Government works across portfolios and in collaboration with local partners and is supporting a wide range of holistic and transformative activity and investments to help improve the economy of Bangor and its surrounding region.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

There is an exciting development in the offing for the city centre, which will bring hundreds of people there every day, and it will improve the high street's economy and the economy of the city generally. This scheme, this well-being and health centre, has been in the offing for some time, with the Welsh Government being one of the partners. But it is moving very, very slowly—as slowly as a snail, in fact. And from what I can see, the processes and the business model that the health board are having to follow are far too unwieldy and bureaucratic, and that is what's holding things back, not only in Bangor, but also with other health projects across Wales. As the Minister for Economy, will you look at what needs to happen in terms of operating in a much more effective way when the health board is involved in this kind of project, in order to accelerate the process of improving the economy?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think it's a fair point around wanting to have partners together to try to make sure that you do deliver some of the economic benefit that comes from that, and public services are definitely part of that too. I know that there's a Bangor strategic partnership that brings together the council, Welsh Government regeneration officials, the university and, indeed, the health board, and the plans that could take place in the Menai centre with the well-being hub are a big part of that, to generate the footfall that you would then get. When I was the health Minister, I always understood that having health facilities or services helps to keep high streets and town and city centres going. So, there was the benefit of doing more in community pharmacy, in terms of access to medication, what it meant and the quality you'd get, but also that would be a good thing for the surrounding high street. Having a significant health and well-being hub in the middle of Bangor itself would be a significant benefit beyond.

I take on board seriously the point you made about how quickly the process takes place, and I do want to understand not just where we are now, but what we can do better in the future—the immediate future around Bangor, but also the learning to try to make sure that we don't have the same potential delays for future regeneration prospects where the health service is one of the key partners, as it should be. So, I'm more than happy to take up the point the Member has made, to have a discussion with the health Minister and, indeed, regeneration officials, to understand why those decisions haven't been made as rapidly as all of us in this Chamber from different parties would want them to, and then to see what we can learn and then implement it, both for Bangor, but also for other projects that I'm sure the health service will need to be a key partner in.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'm grateful to Siân Gwenllian for raising this important point, and for your response, Minister, to see this thing progress, sooner rather than later. You said, in response to one of my colleagues earlier in the Chamber, that economies work best when Government and business are working together. We've seen a great example, just down the road from Bangor, in UK Government's investment at Wylfa, with £168 million to ensure the security of that site for the future, which should have a knock-on effect, certainly for communities like Bangor, and the rest of north Wales as a result, as that opportunity is realised.

So, Minister, I want to know, with that investment taking place by UK Government in Wylfa on Ynys Môn, how you think places like Bangor can best realise the opportunity it will represent, and how north Wales also will make the opportunity realised as well, and what you are doing specifically to support that.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, actually, north-west Wales is the part of Wales that has a history and a tradition around the nuclear sector. I'd like to see a new generation of activity, both opportunities around small modular reactors and the potential for medical radioisotope production at Trawsfynydd, as well as wanting to see not just an outline proposal around Wylfa, but, actually, a plan that can be delivered as well.

As I said earlier, I think the clarity around the site and the purchase that was announced in the budget is good news, and I do welcome that. What I now want to see is some clarity around the plans for the future. Because if it's left to a large gigawatt production facility, then, actually, the funding around that is more challenging. And it, again, does go into the point about not having the certainty of Ministers in their place for a sustained period of time, as well as the Treasury needing to understand what it's prepared to do around the funding model for that. There is a potential future where it could be a combination of different SMRs. For me, that comes back to Trawsfynydd again, and about having a place to test an SMR development. I think that would be a sensible thing to do, to have a single SMR on multiple SMR sites, then you can understand how quickly you could potentially roll that out. It's then a real option, as opposed to a theoretical one.

I do believe, though, that another generation of nuclear civilian power is going to be required to meet our climate change obligations, and I want to see the maximum economic opportunity realised for residents, not just on the island, but across north Wales, with a significant supply chain. And, of course, I mentioned in response to Siân Gwenllian that the university—one of the key partners in the Bangor strategic partnership—does have plenty to offer when it comes to research, as indeed does Parc Menai. So, I think there's a lot that north-west Wales has to offer, and indeed I hope lots of good-quality employment for people, regardless of who they choose to vote for at election time.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

4. How is the Welsh Government supporting the growth of town centre businesses in North Wales? OQ60838

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We are providing £125 million of funding over three years to Welsh local authorities through our Transforming Towns programme. Last year, we published our town centres position statement, which sets out the challenges facing towns in Wales, and a series of interrelated, cross-policy actions to help address those challenges.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I was delighted with the Chancellor's announcement that Rhyl is set to receive £20 million over 10 years as part of the levelling-up agenda. This follows £20 million given to Denbighshire County Council from the previous year's levelling-up fund. This is welcome news for the regeneration of Rhyl's town centre, following the cuts to business rates in the Welsh Government's budget, which has left many businesses anxious amongst rising costs and lower footfall, sadly. Shopping habits have also changed dramatically, with a huge acceleration in online sales during the COVID-19 pandemic, and people are still slow to return to the high street, and many have not at all. Welsh Government policy does not appear to recognise this monumental change in shopping habits since the pandemic, and little action appears to be ongoing to entice people back to the high street.

The Welsh Government's retail action plan reads more like an essay on workers' rights for those working for large, national high-street companies, rather than an action plan that actually supports small businesses and their staff. The number of start-ups in Wales may be promising, but the support isn't there later on. One in six high-street shops are empty, and we need to support these businesses as much as possible, so that they can survive, but they can also grow and create jobs. I would, therefore, like to ask the Minister: in light of the funding commitments made in the spring budget last Wednesday, what action is the Minister taking to support the survival and growth of businesses in town centres such as Rhyl, and across north Wales, and working with the UK Government? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, unlike the Member, I think it's a good thing that the Government has a positive position on workers' rights in addition to growing the economy. I'm very proud that that's our position. Fair work should not be something that compromises the future of our economy. I look behind me again to the Member for Alyn and Deeside, where we have one of the most productive businesses in the UK and a jewel in our manufacturing crown, Airbus in Broughton. It has trade union recognition—a very, very high percentage of people—at one of the most productive sites across our economy. There's no reason that that can't take place in other sectors as well.

When it comes to Rhyl, I do welcome the fact that there is money available to invest in Rhyl. I regret the fact that more money has been taken away from the Welsh Government in the way that our budget has been cut and, indeed, the failure to replace former European funds, despite repeated manifesto pledges to do so. I also want to recognise not just the fact that there is some UK Government money available, but the fact that we have partners in the leadership at Denbighshire council who are serious about taking forward the future of town centres and, in particular, Rhyl as well. The administration that Jason McLellan leads is actually undertaking a number of projects to help regenerate Rhyl itself, together with support from Transforming Towns, including contemporary living and independent retail, with the renovation of three High Street properties into small business spaces. There's work around the gateway project on the High Street, the former post office on Wellington Road and around Edward Henry Street.

These are things that are only possible because this Government is working in partnership with the council in a long-term way, rather than having announcements made in individual budget events. I'd like to see a strategic partnership to help us to redevelop and regenerate town centres right across the country. We could do much more of that if the UK Government were more interested in seeing us as partners to deliver, rather than finding a way to make convenient political announcements. I look forward to the judgement of the people on the political announcements whenever the general election comes.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Minister, surely there's a direct link between the health of high streets and the financial health of households across the United Kingdom. So, would you agree that struggling high streets across the UK are struggling as a direct result of 14 years of mismanagement of the economy by the UK Tory Government?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It's undeniable that choices made by the Conservative UK Government in the last 14 years have had a real impact on the incomes of workers and what that means for high streets. We're still dealing with the realities of Liz Truss's £40 billion-odd of unfunded tax cuts, and the reality of what that has done, in terms of not just the UK's standing in the world, but for real incomes for people, and what that's meant for interest rates and what it has meant for businesses—for interest rates for investment as well. All of these things matter.

It is undeniably a fact that taxes on working people are at their highest level since world war two. It is a fact that gross domestic product per head is falling across the UK. The Office for Budget Responsibility say that GDP will only rise across the UK because of population growth, but each person is likely to have less on average overall, and that has a direct impact on high streets and those areas where discretionary spend is made available. It shows why we desperately need more stability in the UK context, as well as here in Wales. Until we see a decisive change at a UK level, I'm afraid that the future is not a great one for high streets right across Wales, and, indeed, across the UK. I look forward to working in partnership with high streets, local authorities and a different UK Government that will invest in our economic future.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact the recent UK Government budget will have on the Welsh economy? OQ60843

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It is clear that the UK economy remains stagnant as we run through the period of current recession. The prospects for growth set out by the OBR are not optimistic. The Chancellor’s statement failed to present a convincing plan for growth that backs Wales's economic potential in a fairer UK economy.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

We all know that the Chancellor's budget reflected the gulf between the priorities of Westminster and the concerns of ordinary working people in Wales. It's incredibly concerning that the Chancellor has continued to press ahead with tax cuts at the expense of public investment in infrastructure, which we so desperately need to support key services and stimulate economic prosperity. However, as we often hear in this Chamber, and as we've already heard today, the Welsh Government seems to live in hope that Keir Starmer's arrival will bring with it a favourable UK context, a phrase we've become somewhat accustomed to hearing now.

But Starmer's refusal to commit to the reversal of austerity measures, should he become the next Prime Minister, or, as he euphemistically calls it, 'fiscal discipline', doesn't bode well for Wales and the Welsh Government. Given that so many of the Welsh Government's plans for a healthier Welsh economy rest on the hopes of a favourable Labour Westminster Government, how will the Welsh Government get a handle on the long-term issues confronting Wales's economy should this backdrop prove not to be so favourable?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Again, Plaid Cymru want to be disappointed with a UK Labour Government that is yet to be elected. I look forward to getting out on doorsteps and in media studios persuading people to vote Labour in the next UK general election. I think it's essential for the future of the UK and the future of the people we represent. I also cast my mind back to when I was genuinely young and knocking doors in the run-up to the 1997 general election; we had exactly this sort of context, as well, from some of our critics: what would happen with the fiscal discipline that Gordon Brown was describing? And in the end, actually, what did happen was that within a couple of years, there was sustained investment in the future of public services and the economy. It made a huge difference. When I describe the improvement in productivity and economic activity rates through the period of devolution before the last few years, that happened because of the resources we had, because we had a stable environment to make choices here. And I look forward to us being able to significantly improve both public services and the economy in Wales with that stability.

I think, when you look at the Chancellor's recent statement, though, it does show that, if we have more of the same, it's a bleak future, because most independent commentators recognise that the cuts to public services are unachievable. Public services being decent is good for the economy. I was surprised to see the levelling-up mission providing £242 million to invest in Canary Wharf, which doesn't seem like the right sort of priority to me. I think we'll see entirely different priorities with an incoming UK Labour Government. I look forward to campaigning for that Government, to working with them and standing up for Wales to make the choices that we need to have a better economic future for all of our constituents.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

6. How is the Welsh Government supporting skills development in Welsh manufacturing? OQ60810

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Through key skills programmes like apprenticeships, the flexible skills programme and personal learning accounts, we continue to work in collaboration with industry, businesses, learning providers and key stakeholders, including trade unions, to increase our skills development in Welsh manufacturing to meet the needs of the future economy.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Minister, as the Welsh Government's economic mission illustrates, the primary role of any economic development or skills strategy should be to create the right conditions for businesses, workers and learners to thrive. And when I say this, I'm particularly looking at the role that Government can play in developing technology. Can I ask the Minister what conversations he's had with the skills sector, with industry and with trade union colleagues about supporting development and the adoption of strategic technologies of importance, particularly AI, automation and carbon-neutral technologies in areas such as aerospace, advanced manufacturing, housing and renewables? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We're having exactly those conversations. The refreshed manufacturing plan came on the back of a survey with manufacturers about the future for advanced manufacturing, about how much time and attention they'd given to both understand the opportunities as well as the risks of technological change, including AI. And it's one of the things we're keen to help them with, because there are a number of things that are actually now mature, and so, part of how you can improve both productivity and profitability is taking on board consistently technologies that are already mature, as well as cutting-edge technology.

If you think about Airbus and its wider supply chain, Airbus is investing lots in the cutting edge of technological intervention for its business. Lots of their suppliers then need to apply what is already here, as well as understanding that intervention and progress. And it's a theme about what we want to do with the investment in skills for the future—in schools, where businesses have links, but also for those who are already in the world of work. That's why I referred to personal learning accounts and also why I referred to trade unions, because in some of those businesses, it is actually trade union learning that helps get people through the door, for what they can do outside the world of work, but also what that means for them as a productive employee as well. I think we have lots to offer for the future, and again, going back to the stability we want to see, we can invest in that in a sustained way that businesses want us to, that trade unions want us to, and all of that means we're going to have a much better prospect for a really significant future for these key sectors of the economy.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, our further education colleges are doing fantastic work in developing skills to meet the future needs of our manufacturing sector. One just needs to look at the approach taken by Bridgend College in my region, whose partnerships with industry are helping with the transformation of the sector. Manufacturing techniques are emerging on an almost daily basis, many of which are truly transformative, none more so than the latest developments in additive manufacturing; 3D printing is taking manufacturing by storm.

Minister, the Welsh Government can play a role in not only helping to develop future skills, but also in creating the demand for such skills. A few weeks ago, I met with a developer keen to bring 3D printing homes and buildings to Wales. Buildings can be printed in a matter of days, whereas it takes many months utilising traditional building techniques. Minister, what discussions have you had with the Minister for Climate Change about how these new manufacturing methods can address Wales's housing shortage?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I too recognise the key role that FE colleges have for workers of the future, both young people going through at the end of their time in school, as well as people who are reskilling as adults. I'm very optimistic about a whole range of areas that the Member has mentioned, including modern manufacturing methods of construction. It's something that the Member for Alyn and Deeside has regularly championed and talked about as well and how that can help us to improve the rate of increase in house building that we want to see and what that means in terms of local jobs and opportunities as well. It's something I think we can be ambitious about here in Wales.

I also take the point around how you apply some of this through learning in a range of businesses. Some of the points you've mentioned about additive manufacturing and 3D printing are pretty mature and well recognised, and some of this is about how we practically help business to take on board those opportunities. The Toyota lean clusters programme is one of the things we have consistently supported. That learning comes from something that's, again, based in Alyn and Deeside, but it's actually a national programme, and taking on board different manufacturers across a whole range of sectors. They see a real benefit to that. So, there's a whole range of different interventions that we have supported and continue to support right across the economy, in addition to the specific point the Member made around housing, where, as I say, I'm very optimistic about an even greater role for modern methods of construction.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

7. How is the Welsh Government supporting small and medium sized enterprises to futureproof their businesses? OQ60823

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government supports SMEs in Wales to futureproof by helping them build more resilient businesses and develop their business practices. This includes dedicated support available through the Business Wales service, Social Business Wales and, indeed, the Development Bank of Wales.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Diolch. Llywydd, the interest I'm declaring is as academic associate member of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, who I'm going to mention in the supplementary. The Welsh Government's final 2024 budget included £20 million for SMEs to futureproof their businesses. This news has been welcomed, indeed, by the CIPD and the Federation of Small Businesses, who have jointly published a report called 'A Skills-Led Economy for Wales', which covered the issue of productivity and people, skills and workforce planning needs in quite a lot of detail. Therefore, can the Minister, with that in mind, give further detail on how the funding will be spent and how organisations like CIPD and FSB and human resources professionals can engage with it for the benefit of SMEs?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

In fact, we're just working out the final details of the announcement, but we're looking at how we can help a number of eligible businesses. We think we can help over 2,500 businesses across Wales in the sector. The funding is to be used within the next financial year for businesses that are located in Wales. One of the things we want to see is capital match-funded grants to help people improve their premises, to improve their productivity, or a range of other things, for example energy consumption, as well. I'll be publishing the details of that, and I'll make sure that that comes back to the Member.

The point about this is how we help these businesses to be more productive and fit for the future, to make sure they've got a real chance of survival. Often, it's that capital investment that businesses aren't able to see. Having a match-funded basis on which to do that is going to help more of those businesses, and I think that will lead to a real and sustained future for SMEs, which are a key part of our economic system here in Wales, together with the larger businesses they often work in tandem with.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

8. Will the Minister outline how the cuts to the culture portfolio in the Welsh Government's budget for 2024-25 will impact the sector? OQ60817

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

All Ministers have had to make stark and painful choices, and we have radically reshaped spending plans to focus funding on core public services. I have acted to mitigate the full scale of budget pressures on the culture sector. However, there is no budget flexibility that can prevent significant reductions.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, you'll be aware that the Public and Commercial Services Union were outside the Senedd just a fortnight ago, campaigning against the Welsh Government's proposed budget cuts to the culture and heritage sector. Indeed, this sector has taken a disproportionate hit relative to other sectors in the Welsh Government budget. In my view, those cuts are shortsighted for many reasons, but in particular, the letter sent to us by the chair of the PCS union said, and I quote: 'Frustratingly, the money offered by the Welsh Government to reduce staffing levels equals the figure that would have been needed to retain those very staff that are being forced to leave.'

So, the proposed cuts in my view are completely counterintuitive. Now, I'm going to predict the usual answer of 'austerity' from the Deputy Minister, and that does remind me of a very wise quote that I once heard:

'it's not necessarily...about the amount of money that you have; it's what you do effectively with the money that you do have.'

And that person is right, and this cut is a great example of an ineffective way of using taxpayers' money, to make people redundant that you could have otherwise have saved using the same amount money. Now, that quote was said here in the Senedd Chamber two months ago by one Dawn Bowden. Do you stand by those words still?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thanks, Tom Giffard, for that question, and I think that, in general terms, that is absolutely right. Now, one of the things that we've had to do as a Government is to reprioritise our spending, because whatever we say and however you try to wrap it up, we face significant cuts in our budget and we had to make priorities across front-line services and the NHS. That was our political priority. So, there were other services that had to have cuts to accommodate that. Now, throughout the budget scrutiny process—that's on the floor of this Senedd, that's my appearance in committee and so on—I have answered all of these questions previously, but I've also listened to some of those questions, and when additional funding did become available, the Cabinet agreed that we should have a £1.4 million further injection into Cadw and the royal commission, for instance, because that was one of the areas that PCS and others in particular were particularly concerned about in terms of their level of cuts compared to the rest of the culture sector.

But one of the things I would say is that throughout this process—and it is a shame, in effect, that it is a financial crisis that brings us to the point that we sit down and we talk to our arm's-length bodies that deliver our cultural offer about whether they work more effectively together—throughout this budget round, I've been having those conversations with them about how we do things differently, and it's why I also welcome the call from the Arts Council of Wales's chief executive officer when he talked about that we need a national debate about culture and how important it is. I absolutely agree with him. We have a number of cultural bodies that deliver our cultural offer in Wales. For a number of them, there is duplication, there is overlap and there is not the efficiency of operation that there could otherwise be. It is a financial crisis that has finally made us sit down and have a look at that, and those conversations are going on between the arm's-length bodies at the moment, looking at how they can work more collaboratively, how they can avoid duplication and how they can provide a more cohesive cultural offer.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the impact of the Learner Travel Measure? OQ60811

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Minister for Climate Change and I met recently to discuss the findings of the internal review of the learner travel Measure and a statement will be made on the outcomes in due time.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. Two years have passed since the publication of the report on the 2021 review of the learner travel Measure. At the time, it was noted that the Government wanted to develop the programme more widely and improve provision. Since then, there have been more challenges. A number of local authorities have reduced their school transport provision as a result of general funding challenges. In the area that I represent, the catchment areas of Welsh-medium schools are much larger than those of English-language schools, and if the school is far away, there is no school transport available from the council. That can add another layer of barrier for those parents who can't speak Welsh themselves, but who decide that they should make the leap of sending their children to a Welsh school. That could mean, I do believe, that fewer parents will take that plunge.

So, what actions are you taking, along with the Minister for transport, to monitor the impact of these changes on the number of non-Welsh speaking families who are likely to send their children to Welsh language schools, and what impact do you think this could have on the confidence of those parents who can't speak Welsh themselves, but who are on the verge of making that vital decision to give their children that valuable opportunity?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you to Delyth Jewell for that important question. It is a good question. One of the challenges is the data on the reasons for parents choosing Welsh-medium education for their children, but there is a broader challenge that the Member has referred to, and that's fair enough.

The Deputy Minister for Climate Change will announce the outcomes before the end of this week, so that's timely in the context of the question. What I would say, in terms of the changes being made by some councils as a result of budgets, is that that is part of the pressures that we have discussed in a number of different contexts recently. None will fall below the minimum required by the Measure, of course, but we have come to the conclusion that it's not currently possible to review the Measure, but it is possible for us to look at statutory guidance related to the Measure, and the statement from the Deputy Minister will have more to say on that.

I think it's also important to see this in the context of the broader reforms in train in terms of the bus Bill, and I think there is an opportunity, as a result of that, for us to establish a network of bus services that serve schools in the way that the Member mentioned. I do recognise that that needs to be done. So, I hope that, between the two of us, we will be able to make progress in the near future.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, my question is very much in the same vein as Delyth Jewell's question. So, my concern with the current learner travel Measure as it stands currently is, of course, that there are many children who do not receive free transport to their nearest English-medium school because there's a Welsh-medium school that comes first. And there are some very unusual cases where you've got an English and a Welsh-medium school almost next door to each other, but the Welsh-medium school is slightly closer to a family that might be living 10 miles away, and they're not receiving—that family—they're not being able to receive free school transport to their nearest English-medium school. Then, often, having to get behind a car in the morning and travel behind the school bus, which is going to that very location. So, can I ask, Minister, is this something that you recognise and is this something that we will see rectified? Because at the moment Powys County Council are saying—I'm sure other local authorities across Wales will be saying the same—'We can't make adaptions to this because we're waiting for the outcome of the learner travel Measure being updated.'

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Russell George for that. I do think it's a much less likely scenario than that which Delyth Jewell outlined, but what we want to do—and you'll see this when the review is published in the coming days—is that there's an acknowledgement that it won't be possible in the short term for us to amend the legislation that underpins learner travel, but the opportunity to update the statutory guidance over the course of the next year we hope will enable us to address the kind of points that he has made, as well as other feedback from stakeholders. And,importantly, we want to create an opportunity for stakeholders generally, of course, but especially children and young people themselves and school communities, to contribute to that piece of work and help shape it in a way that I hope will be able to address some of the points that the Member has made.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of nurses in schools? OQ60815

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Certainly. The provision of nurses in schools is determined in line with local population health needs by the local health board.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. I have been contacted by several residents in my region who are deeply concerned about changes in the way medication is administered in local special educational needs schools in Rhondda Cynon Taf. Whereas previously on-site special school nurse teams were responsible for administering medication, medication is now being administered by teaching assistants. This understandably concerns many parents and carers whose children have very complex care needs, not only regarding the training and competency of teaching assistants to be able to administer medication, but also regarding what protections are in place for the teaching assistants themselves. I think we can all recognise the important and invaluable work that teaching assistants do in a classroom, and taking on this extra role will further add to the burden that they are under, at the disadvantage of pupil engagement and learning. And as the Minister will know, school nurses will have occupational protections that teaching assistants simply will not have. With this in mind, do you, Minister, recognise these concerns that parents, carers and teaching assistants have and the overall negative impact they will have on learning in the class, and what steps can be taken to address them? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I should say at the outset that, for the record, the responsibility for school nursing rests with the Minister for Health and Social Services, but I'm happy to respond to the question tabled today, although I think any similar questions or follow-ups might be better directed to the Minister for health in future.

Just to say that the arrangements for school nursing and the important work that they do to provide that link between school and home and the community is obviously particularly important in the context of providing medicine in the kind of situations that the Member has just outlined in his question. He will want to know that in April this year, NHS Wales will start the implementation of a new operating model to underpin the existing school nursing frameworks in Wales. It's a nurse-led model, which has been co-produced by the NHS and the Welsh Government, and it will set out some planned contacts that children and their families can expect from school nursing services. It will set out very clear guidance on the role of the school nursing service, and the involvement in relation to safeguarding, and to ensure provision of well-being contacts as well. So, I hope that the Member will welcome that progress during the course of this year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Weinidog, the consultation into changing school term times ended a month ago, with the suggestions in it gaining widespread disapproval from teaching unions, families, and young people too. This co-operation agreement idea between Labour and Plaid Cymru jeopardises one of the pinnacle events in Wales's cultural calendar, potentially costing the Royal Welsh Show over £1 million, with possible other knock-on effects to eisteddfodau and other summer show events, directly impacting the Welsh language and our culture. Now, while it is likely that a different education Minister will be tasked with taking the findings of the consultation forward, are you able to confirm today that the Royal Welsh Show will continue to be held during the school holidays and will not be required to move its dates to another point in the year?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the consultation has closed. The responses are being considered. It's a very much more mixed response than the Member suggests in his question. I've met myself with the Royal Welsh Show. I heard from them, at first-hand, their concerns about their position, but also discussed with them options around the dates for the show. The purpose of the reform, just to be clear, is to make sure that our young people get the best possible education and that we are doing something proactive in relation to the learning loss that many of our young children face over the summer holiday. It is absolutely not a holiday for all our families in Wales—just to be clear. Some regard it with fear and anxiety. It also seeks to address the concern that staff and pupils and many parents talk about, which is the length of the autumn term. So, it's a complex set of reforms. It has many facets. That's why it's been important to hear the voices of a range of people, one of which is the Royal Welsh, but there will be a number of perspectives, and they will all be taken into account before any announcements are made.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

[Inaudible.]—confirmation there that the Royal Welsh will be able to continue during the school term and it won't have to be moved into another part of the school holidays, affecting potentially the National Eisteddfod, the Urdd Eisteddfod, and other cultural events in Wales. I'm sure a lot of people will be slightly disappointed with that response, education Minister.

But in recent weeks, a report of a school in my constituency experiencing violence from pupils towards teachers has appeared in the press. I've reached out to the school to offer my support, and was impressed with the response from the headteacher. Unfortunately, however, incidents such as this are on the rise, and my colleague Laura Anne Jones has highlighted this issue on a number of previous occasions. In January of this year, teachers at a high school in the Vale of Glamorgan went on strike to demand action, following more than 50 serious incidents of verbal and physical abuse towards staff between September and early January. Teachers have described how they have to lock themselves and pupils into classrooms to, and I quote, 'Protect them from being used like punch-bags.' It is vital that we attract new teachers to the profession, but with the rise in violent disruption, the profession isn't as attractive as it might well be. So, what action are the Welsh Government taking to address these issues and provide schools with the resources to make both teachers and pupils feel safe whilst in school? And have you given any consideration to the five-point plan brought forward by my colleague Laura Anne Jones to help in this regard?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Just on the Member's first supplementary comment on my first answer, I don't think those organisations will be disappointed by my response. I think they will be pleased to hear a Government taking a range of considerations into account before announcing a large policy change in accordance with our expectations on Governments everywhere.

In relation to your second point, I'm aware of the circumstances in the particular school to which the Member refers and I was distressed to hear the circumstances of the incident there, as we will all have been. There has been a change in society and there have been consequences to the way in which we have had to respond to COVID and other pressures in recent years. This is not a challenge unique to Wales, but that doesn't make it any less important for us here. And it has created additional pressures and complexities in our school system. Right across Wales, there are schools trying to navigate these new challenges day in, day out. Our role as a Government is to support them in doing that, in often very challenging circumstances.

What we are doing specifically in relation to this is making sure that we are supporting schools with additional resources to assess the challenges that they can face, to set out strategies that we feel can help prevent some of those behaviour issues from occurring, dealing with them when they do happen, and preventing problems, crucially, from being entrenched or escalating to a stage where exclusion is being considered, because that, actually, isn't the solution either. I have considered the five points in the plan that Laura Jones put forward. Practically, all of them are things we're already doing, but it's nevertheless helpful to get confirmation that that is something that she supports as well.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

So, finally, Minister, as it is likely that this will be our final set of questions on education and the Welsh language, I wanted to thank you for your responses—naturally, I haven't always agreed with you—and for the way that we can work together on issues related to the Welsh language.

However, I do want to refer back to a question that I've asked a number of times in the past, which has always had a weak response in my view. I and my fellow Members of the Welsh Conservatives are supportive of the 'Cymraeg 2050' target, and we do understand the importance of ensuring that learning Welsh at school provides a firm foundation in the language for the next generation. But there's uncertainty as to whether there will be enough teachers with good enough Welsh language skills to meet the needs of teaching Welsh to pupils in all schools across Wales.

Can you tell us where we are at the moment in terms of providing adequate Welsh language training and what targets are in place to ensure that training of this kind can continue and increase? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Sam Kurtz. Could I just say that I agreed with the first part of the question and his very kind remarks about that? It has been nice to collaborate with him, and also to have a Conservative spokesperson who is so supportive of the Welsh language is something to celebrate, so I appreciate that. The challenge and the point that he makes are very important in terms of ensuring that we have adequate numbers of staff to meet the needs and to provide the service that we want for all those wanting to learn through the medium of Welsh.

In terms of training, it's a varied picture within the partnerships that provide initial education, and, certainly, there's more to do to ensure that recruitment for Welsh-medium teachers specifically is more consistent among those partnerships and that that is strengthened generally. Of course, there are targets for all of them. This is part of the 10-year plan that we have as a Government to increase the numbers coming into the Welsh-medium teaching workforce, and we'll be completing a progress report on that before long.

And it's also important—. Although we talk a lot about, for valid reasons, the challenges facing those who choose to go into teaching, it's also important that we remember the scale of the opportunity to change the lives of young people and the privilege of doing that. It's one of the few opportunities available for somebody to be able to affect the lives of so many people, so it's also a profession to be celebrated. And I know teachers who go into work every day, who are inspired and who are very eager and proud to do that work, and I'm very grateful to them for what they do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, like Sam Kurtz, I was reflecting on the fact that this may be our final scrutiny session with you in this current role, and I wanted to thank you for the constructive relationship we've had. One thing that stood out to me was the issue of RAAC—there was a lot of misinformation and uncertainty out there, and you did take the time to brief me personally at that point. And I think the fact that we have been able to work constructively together is very important, and to get the messages out there when there's a great deal of misinformation out there. So, thank you for that. I also wanted to welcome the investment in the Urdd Eisteddfod and the National Eisteddfod announced for this year, and I very much hope that this will be something that the Government can also support in the future, so that every area benefits from that.

Clearly, when it comes to the end of one’s ministerial role, possibly, then one does reflect on the Minister’s legacy and record. One of the things that we have certainly seen is that we are further from reaching the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 than we were when you became Minister, and there are many reasons for that. But why do you think that’s the case, and what needs to happen to change that if we are to achieve that target?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Heledd Fychan for the way that she opened her question. It has been a pleasure to co-operate with her. I hope that I can continue to co-operate with you, whatever comes over the next few weeks. And it really is important that we do find ways to collaborate on the things that we see as common ground. So, I’m grateful for the opportunity to be able to do that.

In terms of progress against the target, can I just say that I’m not certain that we can say that clearly that we do know what the progress is against that target? It is increasingly clear, I think, that there are restrictions on what the census can tell us, and other sources of data show quite a different picture. So, a lot of work is happening at present to tackle how we make that consistent. And also, looking to the future, there is a possibility that there won’t be a census held in the future. So, we need to look at more creative ways perhaps of assessing progress against the target, and being able to respond to changes in a way that perhaps is more flexible and more nuanced than a 10-year census. In terms of the 2050 target, perhaps that isn’t frequent enough for us to be able to make the changes to the strategy that will ensure that we meet that target. So, the important thing, I think, is to ensure that we do understand what the data is telling us.

But, in terms of the response and what more we can do, I am very confident and I am very optimistic that the Bill that we’re working with Plaid Cymru on, in terms of ensuring Welsh-medium education for everyone in Wales—in the sense that everyone who leaves school, in whatever medium, can be confident in their Welsh language skills—is going to be more ambitious in one way than the 1 million Welsh speakers target. It’s going to be a catalyst for the system in a broader way, and tackles somewhat the question that Sam Kurtz asked about what we can do to ensure that more teachers are brought into the system. So, I’m very optimistic that what we have in the offing in that Bill is going to be an important contribution towards the target.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. To be clear, I wasn’t talking directly about the census, but looking at all the targets involved with ‘Cymraeg 2050’. For example, with targets in terms of training new teachers, it’s 30 per cent, and it’s remained below that and has been below that since 2019. We’ve also seen a reduction in the number of students taking A-level Welsh, which, of course, is a pathway for the recruitment of teachers, but also the range of jobs that need to be filled beyond education in reaching that target. So, I wanted to ask you specifically—we have a number of plans in place and there are targets: do you think that we need to review those targets? I accept your point in terms of monitoring, but how are we then going to ensure that we don’t have these targets—? For example, 1,000 people were meant to be taking Welsh A-level by 2021—we’re further away from that now. So, there are a number of targets that we’re not achieving. How do we then ensure that these aren’t just words or a strategy, that we achieve those targets, and what do you think needs to happen, if there is a successor in your role, in order to ensure that that does change on the ground?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I accept that the targets in themselves aren’t enough, of course. We need to ensure that we are creative and continue to be creative in terms of how we approach this. But that’s part of the plan, of course, that we have in terms of the plan—. Well, we do have two plans in this area: the teacher recruitment plan—and the targets that you mentioned are a part of that as well—but also we have to look at the trajectory again, to ensure that what we are doing is adequate in order to meet that target. So, that work has started. It’s significant work, of course, but I’m very happy to be transparent about what we’re taking into consideration. At the end of the day, one of the things that is most encouraging is that there is cross-party support for this policy across the Senedd. So, from my perspective, I think an open, co-operative way is the best way to approach this, and so, as we take this forward in terms of the trajectory, I'm happy to discuss that, again, in an open way.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

3. What consideration has the Minister given to removing ultra-processed foods from school meals? OQ60820

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has made a commitment to undertake a review of the healthy eating in schools regulations to consider the latest scientific research and recommendations concerning nutritional standards, including consideration of ultra-processed food. Preparation work to support this review is now under way.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. And, Minister, I thank you very much for all the discussions that we've had on this important issue. But the recent analysis of the extent of the evidence in the BMJ last month just adds to the body of evidence on this major public health concern. This is a failure of regulation and labelling of food for human consumption, which, in light of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and other matters, is principally a matter for the UK Parliament to resolve as a matter of urgency. The issue for us in Wales is how quickly and at what cost we can remove ultra-processed foods from public procurement. With the obligation to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 in mind, as well as the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and bearing in mind the work under way in places like Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire, what steps should the incoming Government take to engage with procurers and providers to excise these ultra-processed chemicals from school meals?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Jenny Rathbone for her question and for her consistent and passionate advocacy of this cause, and I have a great deal of sympathy with the arguments that she makes, as she will know from our discussions in other contexts. I had an opportunity to look at the BMJ article in relation to this, and, whilst it's quite complex from a technical perspective, I was very, very struck by something, which, I'm afraid, I hadn't myself seen quite as central as some of the other elements to this, which is the relationship between, as they describe in the article, greater exposure, as it were, to ultra-processed foods and the high risk of prevalence of adverse sleep-related outcomes, as well as anxiety outcomes and other mental health concerns. I think the debate is often focused around the physical health implications of ultra-processed foods, so I think it's a broader discussion in some ways than that.

So, I think procurement has a role to play. There are existing pieces of work that we are undertaking within the Government already to pilot more local approaches to the school food system, which can then be more broadly applicable to food in public services more broadly, and there is a mix of local authorities, food wholesalers and growers being supported at the moment to focus on how we can localise school food supply, which I think is part of the answer to the challenge. That will, inevitably, mean that there is a lowering of exposure, as it were, to ultra-processed food. One of the pieces of work that the BMJ article refers to is some work which the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition—the SACN—has been doing, and the expert work that they are doing will inform the review that we are undertaking of the regulations. So, the work they're already doing on ultra-processed food will be taken fully into account in the way in which we review the regulations. And, of course, there's a clear connection between what the regulations require to be provided in schools and the process of procurement, so aligning those, obviously, is critical.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's a really interesting question and it's something I take a great interest in, because, when I was working in the NHS, I used to have the same arguments in that context, from a rehab background, in saying, 'Well, how can we expect patients to make a full recovery without locally grown nutritious food?', and it's equally the same for children and children's development as well. Specifically, the UK Government has proposed a healthy schools rating scheme in England, something that the vast majority of parents are in favour of, where a rating is made of the nutritional value of a school's lunches that is made publicly available in a rating system available to parents. So, I'd just like to ask the Minister whether the Welsh Government would consider investigating something similar, where a rating is made based on the nutritional value of school food that is provided to pupils. Thanks.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

So, our approach, as I mentioned in the answer to Jenny Rathbone, is to do a review of the regulations in their entirety to make sure that standards are driven through the regulatory change that we're planning to bring forward. So, we hope that will make the difference that we all prioritise.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

4. What is the Welsh Government doing to encourage more young people to study STEM subjects? OQ60806

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We've committed over £1.6 million for STEM learning initiatives for the next financial year. This recognises that STEM is essential in preparing our children and young people for a fast-changing technological world.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that response. Last week, I attended the launch of the sustainable power, renewables and construction alliance, or SPARC as it's better known, at Pembrokeshire College. The initiative is supported by Blue Gem Wind, Floventis Energy, Ledwood Mechanical Engineering, the Port of Milford Haven, RWE renewables, local secondary schools and, indeed, Pembrokeshire College, and it aims to promote gender diversity in these under-represented industries. So, Minister, will you join with me in welcoming this initiative, and can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support schemes like this and what you are doing to replicate these sorts of schemes across Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That's great to hear. I was actually at Pembrokeshire College quite recently talking to them about—. They're very much leading the way, I think, in terms of renewables education more broadly. I was able to talk to some apprentices, and some of the apprentices were women apprentices, and I thought it was fantastic to see a gender mix in the work that they were doing. We do take it very seriously in Wales, as the Member will know. It is, in fact, built into our education programmes for STEM. One of the initiatives that we have is the Engineering Education Scheme Wales's Girls into STEM programme, and the Institute of Physics whole-school inclusion and equity programme. So, there are many initiatives which we prioritise because I think it's really important that we present STEM as an opportunity, whether you're a boy or a girl, that is equally available to you. I think things are changing. I think we can see that already, can't we? But, as the Member has said, it's really important that we draw on the best practice that particular colleges and, often, schools themselves are doing and then universalise that throughout the system. My sense of it is, in particular in the context of renewables, that the appreciation of the scale of the opportunity which that now represents to economies right across Wales, including the Member's constituency, will support that work, because I think everybody can see that it's an opportunity for everybody.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

As one of the very few Members of the Senedd who is an applied scientist and who studied A-level pure mathematics, physics and chemistry, I look forward onto a Government with four legally qualified Members, as two of them, including you, Minister, compete to become First Minister. If we want more school pupils to study STEM subjects, does the Minister not agree we need society to value scientists and engineers as highly as solicitors and barristers?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm not sure about the divisive tone of that question, Mike Hedges. [Laughter.] But, in all seriousness, I think the Member is right. We can have as many initiatives as we like, as I've just talked about with Paul Davies and we've discussed in the Chamber many, many times before, but I think it's partly about how we describe the aspirations for young people as to the kind of careers they should be aspiring to. Whilst I do think we are doing a lot of that in relation to scientists and engineers, I would say we should probably be valuing them more highly that solicitors and barristers given the contribution that they can make to our future prosperity, and I say that, as Mike recognises, as a solicitor myself. But I do think there is an important point, which is that we don't limit the range of ambitions for our young people and that we are as encouraging of fields and professions that we may not ourselves have as much exposure to. It's incumbent on us at all parts of the school and education system to help open the minds and expand the horizons of young people, and I entirely agree with what he has said.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

5. How is the Welsh Government working with schools to ensure a zero-tolerance approach to bullying? OQ60809

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has a zero-tolerance approach to any form of bullying in the Welsh education system and we expect the same from schools. We provide a range of resources and support to schools so they can prevent and tackle bullying, including our statutory anti-bullying guidance.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm very grateful to the Minister for his answer this afternoon. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that there is no place for bullying in our society, and certainly not in our schools and education system. Minister, I recently met with a parent whose son is being bullied in a school in my constituency. Do you agree with me and my constituent that school leadership should use all the resources and powers available to them to stop bullying both in and outside of schools, and, if so, will you use your office in the Welsh Government to encourage school leaders to do just that? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm grateful to Jack Sargeant for bringing this issue to the Chamber. It is a very, very important issue. We are in the course of updating our statutory guidance on anti-bullying for schools and, as he will know, schools are required to have regard to statutory guidance. I do agree that there is no place in either schools or in our wider society for bullying, and I think that we would all acknowledge that it is sometimes challenging for schools to be able to tackle issues that take place outside of schools. I would encourage schools not only to intervene when problems start to emerge, but to try to promote respectful relationships in that broader way within the school community. And I think making sure that we are providing that support, providing that guidance, is a significant part of the work that we can do. So, free and bilingual materials to support anti-bullying initiatives and, more broadly, to support respectful relationships are currently available to schools and education settings via Hwb. And, as I just mentioned, we are in the course of quite a significant refresh of our anti-bullying guidance, which I hope will support school leaders even further.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

I thank Jack for raising this issue. Minister, over the past few days, I have been inundated with tales of the bullying of children at a school in my region. Many young people have had their lives dramatically impacted by persistent bullying at Brynteg School. Parents have told me about the severe mental trauma their children are subjected to or the physical abuse that is occurring on an almost daily basis, and how, through it all, they don't believe that their concerns are being seriously addressed. Minister, how can we say that there is a zero-tolerance approach to bullying when young people are regularly subjected to abuse and their bullies are treated with kid gloves and the victims are forced to look for alternative schools? Is it right that parents are left with no alternative but to remove their children from a school because their child is afraid to walk the halls or use the bathrooms? Minister, what more can your Government do to stamp out bullying at schools in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I won't comment on the specific example that the Member has given because I have no personal knowledge in relation to the incidents that he, I think, is alluding to, but, just to say, in the way that I answered the question from Jack Sargeant, we as a Government take it seriously. In my experience, schools generally take it seriously. There may be particular challenges in some schools, obviously, but we need to make sure that there is an anti-bullying culture in all schools and, as I was saying earlier, that starts with schools promoting more broadly respectful relationships. So, I hope that the resources that we provide, the priority that we attach to this and the further work that we have planned to renew our statutory guidance will make a difference in supporting school leaders to make sure that schools have anti-bullying cultures and promote those respectful relationships more broadly.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve pupil attendance? OQ60839

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There is statutory guidance—. No, forgive me; I turned too many pages.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 6.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes. Diolch yn fawr.

I am committed to ensuring there is a relentless focus on continuing to improve attendance. That's why I established the national attendance taskforce in January to drive improvements in attendance and to re-engage our learners.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much, Minister. The year before the pandemic, roughly one in 20 secondary school pupils in Wales was classed as being persistently absent, but, as of November 2023, that had increased to one in six. Now, that's obviously not just a Welsh problem; the pandemic has released an epidemic of persistent absence across the western world, and different governments are taking different approaches. In England, the UK Government has taken a suite of measures, including opening up 18 attendance hubs, led by schools with great attendance records, to share ideas and best practice to drive up those attendance figures across the board. Meanwhile, as you said, Minister, you've launched the national attendance taskforce to tackle persistent absence. When I spoke to one local authority education officer in Wales, I heard a lot about the good work that schools are doing on an individual basis to drive up attendance in their schools and in their area, but when I asked about the advice and support given to them by the Welsh Government and this taskforce, they said they'd not had any support from either yet, and that schools were broadly left to their own devices to deal with the problem. Now, I did have a look at the national attendance taskforce terms of reference, and it says that board meetings will occur bimonthly, subject to Ministers' diary commitments. That doesn't seem to me like a Welsh Government that is taking this problem with the seriousness that it deserves. So, are you confident that schools across Wales are being supported enough, centrally, by the Welsh Government and by this attendance taskforce, to give them the best practice to tackle persistent absence in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member will know that we've reviewed the definition of persistent absence in Wales, I think, from the statistics that he's citing, so it no longer is defined as missing school at 20 per cent. It's now reduced to 10 per cent, so that the support can go in deeper and sooner. So, we expect that will enable us to make a difference, not least given the funding we're making available to family liaison officers and education welfare services to support this important priority.

The hubs that he talks about in England, I think—. I can't vouch for whether they are based on the work we do here in Wales, but we have attendance fora at local authority level both for primary and secondary schools. I'm not sure which particular authority the Member is talking to, but if he wants to let me know separately, I'd be happy to point him in the direction of the work that will be happening.

The work of the taskforce is a national strategic taskforce. It isn't there to solve challenges in individual schools, as I'm sure the Member will appreciate, and it was established at the end of last year and has met twice already, so its work—it's actually met three times—is progressing well. It's helping us understand what strategies we can put in place at a national level to better support schools and local authorities, and it is bearing fruit. The work it's doing is telling us very specific things about additional data that would be helpful in the system, but also how school leaders can use that data more consistently to develop effective strategies. And one of the crucial things it's able to do at a national level is identify best practice existing in schools and help us spread that throughout the system. But it's been established for a matter of weeks, it's met three times already, and I'm confident that it will help us solve the challenges.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

7. What is the Welsh Government's policy on children missing education? OQ60805

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There is statutory guidance in place that sets out the Welsh Government's policy on children missing education. This is available on the Welsh Government website.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Currently, the issue of the Children Act 2004 (Children Missing Education Database) (Wales) Regulations 202X is under consultation. This states that a local authority must establish and operate a children-missing-education database, and that the database must include a child who is not a registered pupil and it appears to the local authority that the child is not, or may not be, receiving a suitable education. The vast majority of children missing education are registered school pupils, and many of those are children in the care system. These are not home-educated children. Why, therefore, are these regulations directly targeted at home-educated children rather than children who are genuinely children missing education? And why has the Welsh Government recently issued a consultation under the title 'children and young people on the margins', in which it describes children not enrolled in mainstream education as at risk of criminal exploitation, when evidence shows that home-educated children are not at such risk?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, as the Member says, there's a consultation on these matters, which he's welcome to respond to. I'd be grateful for any thoughts that he has in relation to it, as I'm sure there will be many responses. The consultation closes on 25 April.

I don't accept the characterisation, which the Member gives to this, that this an elective-home-education database. I think the proposals are both proportionate and reasonable. They're there to help local authorities effectively carry out their functions. If a local authority has been unable to determine that a home-educated child is in receipt of a suitable education, then that child is potentially missing education and will then be included in the database. That seems to me a reasonable step to take in the context of the challenge that the database regulations are there to solve. We've committed to undertaking a targeted consultation with children and young people themselves to ensure that their views are heard, and we'll be doing that in a child-friendly fashion so that we can engage the widest audience possible. It is important that we hear all the voices, and I'd encourage people to contribute to the consultation.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Llywydd. In Wales, only Cardiff University provides—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask—

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Yes. I need to ask the question.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask the question on the order paper first and then you'll have another opportunity.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

8. Will the Minister provide an update on training for educational psychologists in Arfon? OQ60808

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

It's a comfort to me that the Member did that, because I gave the wrong answer to the previous question, or I started to do so at least. [Laughter.]

Educational psychologists play an important role in the education system in north Wales. We have committed over £2.6 million between 2022 and 2025 to train and retain new educational psychologists in Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

In Wales, only Cardiff University provides the doctorate required to qualify as an educational psychologist, and this poses particular problems for the north-west of Wales. Prospective educational psychologists have to travel or relocate to Cardiff, and there's no certainty that they will return to north Wales. There are also other challenges in this area. I don't have the time to pursue those today, but I will ask four specific questions. Do you agree that we need a training pathway that's located in north Wales, to ensure equal opportunities for local authorities in north Wales, to promote candidates who can work through the medium of Welsh, and, finally, to look at the level of the bursary for educational psychologists in training?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for those questions. In terms of the bursary, we do pay the education costs for the people on that scheme and we ask them, as a response to that, to commit to the system here in Wales for two years. In terms of attracting people who are Welsh speakers, in terms of the bursary, there is a requirement that a minimum number of people can train through the medium of Welsh in that sense, and in the last year that I have the figures for, a greater number than the target was reached. So, that, at least, is encouraging, I think, but I do accept that there is a challenge in attracting people into the profession in the north-west in particular, it appears, and attracting candidates to study in Cardiff has proven to be challenging. So, Cardiff University is working closely with councils across Wales to look at what they could do in order to secure training places for students in those areas, and maybe there's more to do to build on those links to attract students into the system in the first place. So, I think that, in this area, we do have a good plan; we have a level of commitment and a level of support that is significant, and it does appear that progress has been made in terms of the numbers coming through the system, specifically to work through the medium of Welsh, but I do accept that we do need specific work to ensure that progress is made and that the benefit of that will be felt in north-west Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

3. Debate: The Second Supplementary Budget 2023-24

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is item 3, a debate on the second supplementary budget 2023-24, and I call on the Minister for finance to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. This supplementary budget presents the Welsh Government's final spending plans for the current financial year. It increases our fiscal revenue and capital spending plans by £429 million—a 1.9 per cent increase on the position set out in the first supplementary budget, published in June 2023.

This budget reflects the changes agreed in the in-year savings exercise in October. As a result of that work, we provided additional funding of £425 million to the NHS, and £125 million to Transport for Wales to help meet increased cost pressures.

Additional changes of a further £215 million revenue and £40 million capital have been made in this supplementary budget. We have made further allocations to the health and social services main expenditure group: £59 million has been allocated on a one-off basis to reflect the forecast deficit of the MEG, and an allocation of £95 million is regularised in this budget in respect of the backdated recovery payment element of the pay offer made to 'Agenda for Change' staff on 20 April 2023. Ten million pounds of capital has been provided to support a range of equipment and digital requests across the various health boards and trusts.

Thirty four million pounds of capital to support the core Valleys line has been allocated to the climate change MEG, and £15 million for maintenance and other capital works within the Wales trunk road network. The education and the Welsh language MEG has been allocated £12.56 million capital to address RAAC mitigation works, and to support capital maintenance and associated health and safety pressures across schools and colleges in Wales.

This supplementary budget also regularises funding received through Barnett consequentials, arising from changes to UK Government department spending. Only on 13 February did I receive confirmation of additional funding of £231 million revenue and £8 million capital, arising from Barnett consequentials. Due in part to the lateness of this notification, our spending plans for 2024-25 agreed last week, in our final budget, make use of £180 million of funding carried forward from this financial year.

I thank the committee for its consideration of this budget and the publication of its report. We will provide a detailed response to its recommendations in due course. I ask Members to support the motion.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to speak in this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee. The committee scrutinised the second supplementary budget on 29 February, and I'd like to thank the Minister for her attendance.

First, the committee is pleased to see increased funding being given to the Welsh Government as a result of the UK supplementary estimates. We welcome additional transfers always, however, we recognise that it was only at the last minute that the Minister knew their true value, and we note that this has caused difficulties. In our view, this leads to needless uncertainty and makes it challenging for the Minister to plan for the long term.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

The committee are also disappointed that the Minister’s request, in the autumn, to switch funding from revenue to capital budgets was declined by the Treasury. We therefore ask the Minister to provide further information to explain the rationale for the decision and the impact it will have on the Government’s funding position. That said, we are pleased that the Treasury has allowed flexibility for the Government to use this funding in the next financial year and to waive draw-down limits on the Wales reserve, in recognition of how late in the day the announcements were made. However, as we discussed in the Senedd only a few weeks ago, it is not appropriate for these arrangements to be made at the whim of the Treasury and on a case-by-case basis, and we call again for such powers to be formalised.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the committee notes that this supplementary budget puts into effect what was announced by the Minister’s financial update, issued in October. Although we recognise the value of this exercise, we remain of the view that the Minister should have brought forward an additional supplementary budget to aid transparency, and this should be the case in future should the Minister make significant in-year changes. While we appreciate the Minister appearing before the committee to discuss these issues in November, we want to make it clear that we expect this to happen as a matter of course when significant changes are announced.

Turning now to specific portfolio allocations made in this supplementary budget. Of course we welcome the additional funding given to the health service, but have concerns about the sustainability of this approach, given that it comes so soon after allocations made in October. We have similar fears regarding the allocations given to Transport for Wales. The number of health boards that have not met their target control totals this year is of particular interest, especially as information on their performance in relation to these targets will not be available until the summer. As a result, we call on the Minister to provide details of progress in this area, so we can understand the financial position of health boards as soon as possible.

We also welcome the assurances given by the Minister that reductions in the resource allocations for mental health policies and legislation will not result in cuts to front-line services. Nonetheless, we found it difficult to understand what these changes relate to, and have asked the Minister to explain their practical impact.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to mention two other areas to finish. In relation to the additional allocations made to Transport for Wales, we have recommended that the Minister undertakes an impact assessment to ensure that the Welsh Government’s approach provides value for money. In addition, despite assurances by the Minister that the reduction in the central services and administration MEG will not impact on Welsh Government staff levels, we ask the Minister to provide an update on whether these changes will impact capacity within the Welsh civil service.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Finally, we welcome the fact that the Minister has robust processes in place to monitor in-year spending. That said, we want her to go further, and we have recommended that forecast outturn information is published at regular intervals within the year, to enable the committee to look at governmental spending in real time.

As ever, we welcome the Minister’s continued engagement with us on these issues, and we ask her to press ahead with the areas that we have identified in our report. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

I know we've had many debates on Welsh Government funding recently. Each one of these, while seemingly quite technical, is important and they all have a story to tell. Let's not forget the context of this supplementary budget. Much of this, we know, regularises the budget changes that happened following the surprise budget announcements we saw following the First Minister's warning of projected deficits during the summer recess. Those knee-jerk decisions were made in October due to poor forward planning by this Labour Government, who had clearly failed to acknowledge the inflationary indicators that were known about in advance of setting this year's final budget. This poor management created huge unrest and concern to many areas as their funding was withdrawn.

The supplementary budget provides additional money for the delivery of NHS core services, which is welcome, but it can't disguise the results of years of underfunding of our health service as a direct result of Welsh Government's policy agenda. As I've said time and time again, if the Welsh Government had been using all the full force of the funding made available for Welsh health services, then our Welsh NHS would have been more resilient, and our health boards would have been better prepared to manage today's challenges.

This set of funding decisions also saw cuts to the apprenticeships of £17.5 million, cuts that were carried forward in the 2024-25 draft budget. Now, whilst the 2024-25 final budget reinstates £5 million, this decision to cut that budget will, of course, lead to a reduction in the number of apprenticeships that will be delivered this Senedd term. This is a crying shame as these courses allowed the next generation of tradesmen, farmers, engineers and many other professions to access training and development opportunities that could help grow the Welsh economy. The cutting of these apprenticeships will do nothing but ensure Wales continues to fall behind the rest of the United Kingdom when it comes to average earnings and economic activity.

The Welsh economy is something this Government just doesn't focus enough on. Our small businesses, which make up the vast majority of business and employment opportunities for people across Wales, are the economy's lifeblood and should be Government priority. The Welsh Government needs to create an economic environment in which businesses can thrive, not one where businesses struggle to survive. This supplementary budget saw non-domestic rate relief cut by £31 million, which is drastic considering businesses in Wales pay the highest rate of business rates in Great Britain. To make matters worse, funding was provided by the UK Government to enable a cut in business rates for the hospitality, retail and leisure sectors, but this support was not passed on here in Wales. This decision punishes businesses here, with businesses in the sector paying almost double the amount in rates as they would if they were on the other side of the border.

Dirprwy Lywydd, if we are to see a Wales that thrives, we need to see better long-term strategic planning for our many public services and, of course, our economy, ensuring that both families and businesses are not held back from wanting to live here. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

As we've already heard from the Chair of the Finance Committee, this supplementary budget relates mainly to the process of reprioritisation that was held back in October. It's taken almost seven months—over half of this current financial year—to get a full picture of the Welsh Government's spending plans. Once again, we're in a situation where fiscal issues in Wales are presented to us as a fait accompli, without much time, if truth be told, to scrutinise them. And I echo the calls made by the committee Chair for a review to see whether the protocol we currently have does give us that level of accountability that we should expect from a national Government.

But to turn to the specific content of the supplementary budget, it is a cause of concern that the plans are mainly putting sticking plasters over large budgetary holes that have been allowed to develop over many years. As we mentioned back in October, we do have to provide that £425 million of additional funding for the health service in the context of the fact that there’s a cumulative deficit of £648 million across the seven health boards in Wales in the current year. Although I do note that the Welsh Government has set targets to reduce that deficit, they have had to provide another £59 million to account for the fact that three health boards are to fail to meet those targets.

It’s difficult to come to any conclusion other than that we, in terms of our health service, are on a totally unsustainable path under this Government. We’re constantly seeing lengthy waiting lists, we are seeing target after target being missed, and despite the commitment of the incredible staff we have across our health service, we’re seeing levels of healthcare that still fall short of what we should be able to expect. Without an urgent change of course we are going to be stuck in a vicious circle where an increasing amount of the Welsh budget is thrown at health without seeing that fundamental improvement that we should expect as a result of that in terms of service standards.

Unfortunately, we’re seeing a similar theme in the case of transport—£125 million allocated to Transport for Wales being used to fill gaps in revenue rather than to improve the performance of a rail operator that’s reached the bottom of the league recently in terms of customer satisfaction in the Transport Focus survey of passengers. We of course recognise that the pandemic had a very significant impact and an inevitable impact on the number of passengers, but one can only have so much sympathy knowing that many rail operators across the UK have already managed to reach and get beyond passenger levels before the pandemic. And passengers in Wales have to accept another increase in ticket prices from April onwards.

I will make this point, too, and this is an important point: the Welsh Government needs to be clear, I think, on why the ambitious proposal of KeolisAmey was selected back in 2018, given the major difference there is between expected ticket sales and actual ticket sales. COVID, of course, as I’ve said, is part of the answer to that dilemma, but we’ve called time and time again for the KeolisAmey forecast to be made public for transparency’s sake. That is crucial, and it’s a cause of concern that it doesn’t appear that the Welsh Government has that information to hand, particularly given the implications that this has had in terms of the state of the Welsh budget and our ability to spend public funds effectively this year and next year.

In the meantime, of course, bus services, which account for 80 per cent of public transport in Wales, are being deprived of funding, raising the possibility that communities will become more isolated than ever before. I think there is a gulf between investment in urban and rural Wales in this regard, something that the Government needs to be aware of.

But—and I will make this my final point—we must also recognise the lack of resources available to the Welsh Government because of expenditure decisions made by the UK Government, and that’s why it is so important that the need to reform the current funding arrangements for Wales, which has cross-party support in this Senedd, is expressed in the strongest possible terms to the main parties in Westminster. I know that the First Minister doesn’t want to see me return to the issue of fair funding for Wales week after week, but Plaid Cymru will not stop insisting on the fairness that Wales deserves.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

This is a strange debate. This supplementary budget regularises allocations to and from reserves, transfers within and between portfolios, and includes adjustments to the Wales budget to reflect the impact of UK Government fiscal events. In the second supplementary budget, the money, or almost all the money, has been spent. It has all been allocated. It has almost all been physically spent. I'm not sure what would happen if a supplementary budget is rejected. Are you going to take money off people, off the health service, because you shouldn't have spent it?

I have a number of points. The movement of revenue to capital or capital to revenue should be the decision of the Welsh Government, not the decision of the Treasury. The money has been allocated to Wales. How we spend it should be the decision of the Welsh Government supported by the Senedd, not being decided by the Treasury, which doesn't seem to grasp the fact that this is not another Government department; it's a devolved institution, and it's a Government in its own right.

I'll ask the Minister some questions. Can the finance Minister assure us that no money will be paid back to the Treasury? If that assurance cannot be made, can I suggest that the money is spent? I will suggest giving it to local government, which always has a need for additional money. Why can't updates on expenditure be given more regularly, even if only in written form to the Finance Committee?

And finally, an additional £59 million has been allocated in the supplementary budget to reflect the forecast deficit of the health and social services main expenditure group. Current forecasts from NHS bodies indicate that although there are significant improvements, with four of the seven local health boards forecasting to hit their target deficit, the other three will fall short of the target set in November, when they were given extra money in November. Why are health boards overspending? Can the health Minister provide a written statement on overspends, identifying the areas of overspending and the reasons for that overspending? Health seems to be given a free pass on overspending—it's health money; it must be good. And I think that some financial discipline and, dare I say, productivity needs to be brought into the health service.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I hesitate to contradict Mike Hedges, who's obviously the expert on financial matters, hearing what he's saying that there isn't actually any extra money as we've already allocated it. But I want to probe with the finance Minister the allocation of additional money into the core budget of health boards, which I welcome, because I acknowledge the financial challenge they face in light of both increased costs and increased demand. We'd already recognised just what a challenging situation it was for them to endeavour to break even under the current circumstances. I want to understand where it leaves us on being able to resolve the junior doctors and consultants pay dispute, because we have rehearsed earlier just how much lack of clarity there's been from the Treasury as to what consequential we can get from the apparent resolution of pay disputes in the English NHS, which seems to be an absolutely crucial issue.

But I also wanted to just put in a plea, if there were to be any extra money, if Mike Hedges's analysis isn't quite as gloomy as it appears to be, for the social justice budget, which has suffered some of the most severe cuts, and wasn't a beneficiary of any of the supplementary budget that we debated most recently. I want to particularly get us to focus on the importance of continuing to ensure that we provide proper advice services to people who get themselves into debt, because, obviously, it's far more costly for them to move even further into debt if they don't understand the measures they can take to mitigate that, as well as the discretionary assistance fund to help the most desperate cases. We very much welcome the £30 million investment in the Warm Homes programme that we discussed yesterday, but, clearly, if there was any spare money at all, more money into that fund will pay dividends on the invest-to-save basis in the long term.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. I'm very grateful to colleagues for their contributions today. Obviously, the second supplementary budget is an important part of our budgeting process. It approves and authorises the revised spending plans of the Welsh Government and those bodies directly funded through the Welsh consolidated fund, and it sets the limits against which the final outturn position will be measured.

I'll respond to some of the specific points, and I'll start off with the Finance Committee's report, which we're very grateful for, and grateful for the scrutiny. I particularly welcome the committee's recognition of the constraints that are placed on us within the existing fiscal framework, and the agreement from the committee that the flexibilities that we are requiring are supported by the committee, and, indeed, by the entire Senedd, in the debate that we had recently. So, I'm very pleased to see that particular recommendation, but, of course, I'll provide a full response shortly to the report.

Mike Hedges asked about the reserve and the potential for breaching that reserve this year. Just to reassure colleagues, there's no prospect of that happening this year, and that's partly because of the extraordinary measures that we had to undertake in this financial year to manage the position. Essentially, we had leave from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to withdraw everything from the Wales reserve, which was part of our plans, but, of course, we had a better situation come through the supplementary estimates than anticipated, so we do have room within the reserve to deal with any further underspends that emerge in this financial year, so that's a more comfortable place now. We were also able to carry some additional funding over outside of the reserve into next year, which, again, was pragmatic, I think, on the part of the UK Government.

In terms of the capital-to-revenue switch, it is the case that we've only had our Barnett share, if you like, of the capital-to-revenue switches that have been agreed by the UK Government for UK Government departments. Obviously, that is really problematic, because we do need a system whereby we can make that request, whether it's to the Treasury or whether it's to have agreement through the Senedd—we need a process that works for us here in devolved Government so that we're not just beneficiaries or otherwise of changes that take place in Westminster departments. We just need an opportunity to initiate that kind of change ourselves.

In terms of transparency, we tried to be as transparent as we could in October, when we were providing more detail of the reprioritisation exercise that we had to undertake in the Welsh Government. In terms of, though, putting that through a supplementary budget at the time, I think that would be problematic, in the sense that what we were doing then was moving money within the Welsh Government, whereas to undertake a proper supplementary budget you do need to understand what the other side of the coin is, if you like—so, the funding that's also coming in from the UK Government—which is why we have the main estimates, which inform our first supplementary budget and any spring statement, and then the second supplementary budget is informed by the supplementary estimates by the UK Government. I think that you do need to see both parts of that equation before you can really table a meaningful supplementary budget.

There were some questions about the spring statement and, particularly, that question about whether there was any additional money that did come and what that means for pay. So, £141 million of the additional funding that came through the spring statement is money that we already knew about, and it's already factored into our plans for health next year. So, there was nothing, really, particularly new in that space, although we are awaiting some funding from the UK Government in respect of the levy that, normally, we provide funding through to the advice services for. The Minister for Social Justice and I will be having some discussions on that; we normally passport that money across to the advice services, so we'll look to do that shortly.

I think that those were the key points that were raised. I'm trying to stick on this financial year, if I can, but I've done a terrible job of that so far. I know that there were several questions on health specifically, which I should respond to. As we've heard, at this point all but three of the NHS organisations are forecast to achieve the targets that were set for them in November, including, in the case of four health boards, the 10 per cent reductions in deficits that were requested by the health Minister. But just to be clear that the additional funding is not being provided to the health boards; it is a one-off contingency, which will be held by the health and social services MEG to offset the current forecast position of these boards, and we expect those boards to continue to make improvements as we go through to the end of the financial year as well.

I think what we do see in this supplementary budget, really, is a picture of the difficult choices that we've had to make, some of which, actually, we might not have had to have made if we had more clarity as we went through the financial year. But what you do also see, though, I think, is our ongoing commitment to supporting and prioritising our public services.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

4. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 today is the topical questions, and first we have a question from Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the decision for Mid and West Wales and North Wales fire and rescue services to carry out independent reviews into their culture and values? TQ1017

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I made a written statement to update Members on this matter on 11 March.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Weinidog. I welcome the announcement from the Government to hold a review into the culture of all fire and rescue services in Wales, as we have been calling for, ever since the findings of the damning report into the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service was published. But this cannot distract from the fact that the Government has failed to get to grips with this matter earlier and that that has eroded staff confidence in the process.

In your statement on Monday, announcing the reviews, you mentioned it was because you had continued to receive correspondence, including allegations from current and former employees of both organisations, and that staff needed to be assured that they had safe and effective means to share their experiences. Given this reasoning, Deputy Minister, together with the testimony of those who spoke to ITV Wales news, including more than 35 whistleblowers, who were critical of the culture in north Wales—one describing sexual harassment and physical assault at the service—and the fact that Stuart Millington was head of safeguarding in North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, are you still content with his appointment by the commissioners as the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service's current interim chief fire officer? And what are your views on how it looks to both staff and the public? Fire Brigades Union members in south Wales have stated that they feel profoundly and deeply let down by this appointment, and given the allegations against Mr Millington and the fact that members of the south Wales fire brigade called an extraordinary meeting and passed a vote of no confidence in him, do you accept that these concerns have so far failed to be addressed? Do you have any concerns around the way this appointment was made by the commissioners, as regards transparency and in regard to the lack of consultation with the unions, or indeed with yourself?

And finally, Deputy Minister, these reviews must be thorough and wholly independent in their approach to tackling this unacceptable behaviour that we see all too often in our public services. So, how will you ensure the reviews are fully independent, if the fire and rescue services are appointing their own investigators? To ensure a full and sufficiently robust and deep review, will the Welsh Government provide the necessary resourcing and will you be ensuring that the reviews are based on the same terms of reference as those in south Wales for consistency? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Diolch. Can I thank Sioned Williams for her question? I've been clear—. I keep Members in the Senedd updated, and that's what I've done, and as long as I'm in this position, I will continue to do that as well. As soon as the Fenella Morris KC report and its findings were published into the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, I said that we would reflect urgently on the extent to which lessons were learnt in the other services, but whether similar issues were present in Wales's two other fire and rescue services.

In my first oral statement to this place on 9 January, I did urge other fire and rescue services, and indeed other public services, to reflect on that as an example of how badly wrong things can go, if issues of good governance and management are neglected. Since then, I've met with both the chief fire officers of Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service and North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, as well as with the chairs of those two authorities, to discuss the Morris report and its recommendations, and, as I said in the written statement, to seek those assurances about the culture at these organisations and to set out those expectations about workplace culture in the services.

I think both organisations have already embarked on comprehensive programmes to review and improve their organisational cultures. As I said in the written statement too, some progress has been made, and there are examples of good practice. The fact that I and others continue to receive correspondence from current and former employees of both organisations means that it is time for them to carry out more in-depth reviews that, as you say, need to be led independently as well. And there should be—. And that's why we were clear in those discussions on getting to this point with them agreeing to carry out these independent reviews: they need to have, as part of that process, a transparent process or system for those people to be able to come forward. And I said to you and I said in this place previously that they shouldn't have to go to the press and they shouldn't have to go to politicians. And hopefully, as part of this review, we can make sure that that system is in place as well.

I continue to work with the commissioners of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. They will be moving to appoint a more substantive chief fire officer or chief executive officer. I would hope that, as part of that process, they will also update Members, particularly in the South Wales region, about that progress. And I understand that they will also make sure that as part of that process, within a more substantive post, there is a stakeholder engagement programme as part of that, not just with the FBU, but with other staff representative bodies and other trade unions, such as Unison, GMB and Unite, as part of that as well. From my perspective, I have always met regularly with the trade unions as well, and I will continue to do so. I have met with the FBU, including with their executive officer for Wales, and also the general secretary, Matt Wrack.

On Monday morning we were also in our regular social partnership forum for the fire and rescue services. Members will not be surprised that the substantive focus of that forum was on the findings of the Fenella Morris KC report, and the implications for the service. And in that meeting, there was a recognition of the challenges ahead and the need to work together to achieve that change. I'm under no allusions that this is going to be an easy task—this is cultural change, and, sadly, we've said before, it's one that's reflective and endemic of society. But I've been clear in my position, and the Welsh Government is, that we'll use all the levers we have, and we have done to date, to make sure we work collaboratively and together to effect the change that we all want to see. The people that work in the fire service are proud of the role they play, and we need to help them restore that pride, in a safe and inclusive working environment, and in a way that not just provides assurance for them but for the communities that they serve as well.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Deputy Minister, I think it's plain to see by all that an independent review of the culture and values of all of Wales's fire and rescue services has been needed for some time. Indeed, I was the first to call for this back in January when you made your initial statement, and I believe, as I'm sure many other Members of this Chamber do, that this review was inevitable, and that, by delaying it, the Welsh Government have simply demonstrated their lack of leadership on the issue. Deputy Minister, I think it is an outright failure of you and this Government not to have taken action sooner, and you've put staff in North Wales Fire and Rescue Service into a position where they had no other choice than to go to the media in order to get their voice heard and to expose the culture of bullying, sexual harassment and favouritism that exists in the service. This has further caused immense reputational damage to the fire service in Wales.

As you will be aware, there's a major shortage of firefighters, in particular retained firefighters. And with more than a 20 per cent reduction in Wales since 2010, there is now an even greater potential for lives to be put at risk. We all recognise that considerably more needs to be done than just another review of culture and values, and that there needs to be a major overhaul of the Welsh fire service. With this in mind, Deputy Minister, and in light of the poor working conditions in the fire service, what proposals do you have to improve the reputation of the fire service as an employer, encourage more retained firefighters, rebuild public trust in the service, and show that it is fit for purpose? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Diolch, Joel James, for that question. I refer back to part of my previous answer, that the point where we got to with the announcement on Monday in the written statement, to update Members, was part of the process that had been ongoing since I first made clear in this place, when we first reflected on the findings of the Fenella Morris KC report, that we would actually consider what that meant for the other fire and rescue services. And what's happened over the following weeks, as that process of dialogue with those organisations has continued, both in correspondence and face-to-face conversations, is to actually ensure that they had put measures in place already, but actually to get to the point, when there was a recognition to have that independent review, to provide, as I said, again, that assurance both for staff and for the public alike. And that independent review will not just take into account and reflect the findings of the Fenella Morris KC report but a number of other reports too, such as His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services in England's spotlight report, and also to look at the steps that both mid and west and north Wales fire and rescue services have taken already, whether that's through staff engagement surveys, or putting processes into place. And as I said before, there's a recognition that they have started to take those steps when I've met with them, but also actually the need to go that step further, to provide that assurance, and to learn from that, and actually to put the service in the place where I'm sure that we all want to see it be.

In terms of the wider issues that Joel James raises—I know that you've been involved with the Equality and Social Justice Committee's inquiry, led by my colleague, as the Chair, Jenny Rathbone, into the wider governance of fire and rescue services and authorities in Wales. And I very much look forward to seeing the outcome of the committee's work. I think it's timely, and it's important, and it sits alongside also the work the Wales audit office is doing around governance too, and I'm sure there'll be some broader recommendations and points that can build on the work that we've already started to do as a Government. And before now, we have committed our position to wanting to broaden the role of firefighters in Wales. It is one way to ensure the sustainability of the service, both in terms of perhaps recruitment and retention, and offering a place, but also to actually address some of the concerns around a retained fire service, because the way people live and work has changed and has made it much more challenging in a number of communities in Wales not just to recruit, but to, actually, retain those retained firefighters. And actually broadening the role is one of the ways in which we could address those challenges.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Members of the Fire Brigades Union have been clear that the appointment of Mr Millington is deeply disappointing, and I think what I'm trying to understand, and I think Members on these benches are trying to understand, is, essentially, how did we get to this point, given the allegations that were made against him, given the vote of no confidence in him by members of the brigade? How did we get to this point? The appointment came with no consultation with yourself nor the trade unions, so how do we rebuild trust?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Can I thank Luke Fletcher for his interest? And can I apologise for not being able to make it to your event at lunchtime with the FBU around DECON, but hopefully somebody from my office was there as well. And it's actually something we've discussed, as part of our social partnership forum, and actually how we can apply some of those lessons in Wales.

Returning to the point you made regarding the interim chief fire officer, as I said before, that was an operational appointment to maintain strategic leadership of the service and operational response cover continually. It was a decision—. We put the commissioners in place and gave them the full remit to reform, particularly the senior management leadership of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. As I said in my answer to your colleague Sioned Williams, the permanent chief fire officer or chief executive post will be advertised and an appointment made as soon as possible. And as part of that process, the commissioners will engage with a full engagement process with stakeholders, which will involve all of the trade unions, including the FBU as well. In terms of my own engagement, as I said I meet regularly with all the trade unions and the fire and rescue services, and I will continue to do so for as long as I'm in this post.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The next topical question is to be answered by the health Minister and to be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

2. What assessment has the Minister made of emergency medical retrieval and transfer service provision in mid and north Wales, following reports that a recommendation has been made to close Caernarfon and Welshpool Air Ambulance bases? TQ1027

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I understand the strength of feeling among local people about this issue. Today I have asked the chief commissioner of the ambulance services for certainty about how many discussions have been held with local communities about those concerns and to what extent these have been taken into account. No decision has been made. The commissioners will be discussing the options, which will include the opinion of stakeholders.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the Minister for that response. No decision has been made, according to her, but a recommendation has been made to close Dinas Dinlle and Welshpool, and that recommendation will come as a huge blow to the people of the north-west and mid Wales. In rural areas such as these, particularly, the air ambulance service has been crucial, enabling emergency treatment to be provided, in a timely manner. Now, the report claims that relocating services to somewhere in the north-east of Wales would enable it to get to a larger population more quickly, but this will mean that there will be fewer communities served, which include some where transport connectivity is extremely challenging. And this is very concerning when you consider that the report recommends a road vehicle as the main provision of emergency care in areas of north-west Wales, such as Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Anglesey or, indeed, north Ceredigion and Montgomeryshire too. The lack of detail in the report in terms of how many vehicles will be available and where they'll be located also adds to concerns. Now, consider, for example, if someone, at the moment, has to travel from Caernarfon to the far end of the Llŷn peninsula, that can be done in minutes in an air ambulance, but in a road vehicle it will take an hour and a half.

The residents of Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Montgomery, Môn, and mid and north-west Wales have a right to emergency life-saving services as every other area. Despite the fact that the 'air ambulance' is the title, it is an airborne hospital, and in areas where we don't have emergency services, then it does provide a crucial service. In addition to that, losing the air ambulance in Welshpool and Dinas Dinlle will also mean that we lose skills in terms of those people who will no longer be working in that area, and will lead to reduced services for the people living in those areas.

So, do you recognise that the new arrangements leave communities in north-west and mid Wales in a disadvantaged situation as compared to the previous arrangements, and why does the Welsh Government see this as an acceptable price to pay?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I understand the strength of feeling that the Member has about this, and I know that the communities also feel very strongly about it.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The emergency ambulance services committee is meeting on 19 March to consider the recommendations of the EMRT service review and it would be inappropriate for me to comment or pre-empt any final decision that hasn't been made yet. Now, EASC is legally responsible for planning and securing EMRT services, and we shouldn't undermine the well-established governance put in place to make decisions like these. I know that Llais have been engaged on the EMRT service review processes as well. So, I think we've got to let this process take its course, and I will obviously be very keen to see when and if and how it's appropriate for Welsh Government to intervene.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I think it's an understatement, Minister, to say I'm disappointed with the chief ambulance commissioner's final report that was made public today. Closing Welshpool and Caernarfon bases cannot be an option. It is entirely unacceptable, and I certainly hope that Welsh Government Ministers will intervene in this process before it is too late—and I've heard what you've just said.

'Nobody would be worse off', is what we've been told for the past 18 months during this process—nobody will be worse off. But people will be worse off if the recommendations come to pass. They will be. There's no doubt about that. There will be slower response times to not just a couple of villages but to swathes of people living in mid and north-west Wales. So, this is not going to be the case if these recommendations come to pass.

The recommendations, I note as well, do not even set out what would be the case to mitigate the negative impacts that are realised within the report. So, a question from me is: how can a decision be made without that first being the case? The one significant question I have is this: what impact did the engagement process have? What impact did the engagement process have? Because the overwhelming response from people across mid and north Wales—and it even boasts in the report here: 23 weeks of engagement, 45 engagements—thousands of responses all pretty much saying the same thing: the Welshpool and Caernarfon bases should not close. Not one constituent in the past 18 months has said to me, 'You know what, I think that closing the Welshpool base or reconfiguring the services in mid Wales will actually lead to a better service for us.' Not one person has said that to me, not even privately.

And I ask the question as well because the recommendation is exactly the same—exactly the same—as the proposal in the original leaked document of 18 months ago, which also outlined that Welshpool and Caernarfon bases close, reconfiguring in one location. So, what is your message, Minister, to the many people across Wales who would say this was a done deal from the start? What is your response to that? You've said in your earlier response that a decision has not yet been made and it will be made after the recommendation. We've now had that recommendation and my concern is that it will be too late to intervene once that decision has been made by the committee that you referred to.

So, can you set out what will happen next and how you, Minister, and your colleagues will intervene? Will you be questioning the risk that will be presented if only one base was in operation across the whole of mid and north Wales? Because you know yourself from our questioning last month that if there's one base alone and there are adverse weather conditions then there will be no cover of any bases operating across north and mid Wales. Will you also be assessing and questioning the risk of longer response times in Powys, where we have no district general hospital?

And finally, Minister, the people, I think, across mid Wales and in north-west Wales feel absolutely let down. They feel absolutely let down after this process, turning up to meetings, responding to the engagement processes. They feel let down. What is your message to them? Because of course it is Welsh Government's responsibility that people are transferred into emergency care in a timely manner. That, probably, is no doubt the top responsibility, or one of them, of the Welsh Government. What is your message to those people who feel absolutely let down in terms of how you and your colleagues are going to intervene in this process?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. The advice from the chief commissioner to the committee is that the recommended option will enable EMERTS to help more patients across Wales and to get to more places in Wales more easily, but I hear what you say and I hear what Mabon has said in terms of how that will impact on certain parts of Wales. His advice is that the recommended option will also enable more night cover for the people of mid and north Wales. So, at the moment, that night cover is coming from Cardiff, and that will make greater use of highly skilled clinicians' time. I do think that there has to be a consideration in here somewhere of efficiency and cost-effectiveness and how much use is made of the service.

What impact—. You asked about the impact on the statement that has been made in terms of the engagement. I've today asked for further written assurances on the level of engagement and how that engagement has shaped the decision to recommend a consolidation of bases, alongside other factors used to shape the recommendation. So, I've asked for that in writing just to make sure that I'm absolutely clear that there has been an impact in terms of listening to the people. I've also asked what are my legal powers to intervene in relation to this. It will clearly not be a decision for me, in the sense that I'm somebody who represents the area that may be impacted and, obviously, would have to pass on any consideration to somebody else in the Government.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I am furious in reading today's recommendation, I have to say. I believe that we've been led on a lengthy journey where the destination was entirely inevitable. The Minister says that she will ask for an assurance that there has been sufficient consultation. Well, there's been plenty of consultation; they'll be able to show you clearly that there's been consultation over a lengthy period of time to get to the point where we started and the point that raised so many concerns across a broad area of Wales.

I want to thank everyone who has campaigned, and I encourage them to work with us still to ensure that this is not implemented. They did protest, they did attend public meetings, they did respond to the consultation, and they made the case that the original proposal would mean a poorer service for people across broad areas of Wales. This is a statistical exercise, finding the easiest way to reach higher numbers of patients in north-east Wales. But the recommendation does that at the expense of people in my constituency in Anglesey and across north-west Wales, and across a broad area of mid Wales too.

And I am convinced that there is a way that we could have invested, particularly in road vehicles, to provide better services in north-east Wales—we all want to see that too—whilst not seeing a deterioration in the service across the rest of Wales. I appeal to the Minister that she doesn't leave it too late to intervene, to think about the deficit in service. And it's not patients alone who are saying that, it's not just people who fundraise, it's doctors, paramedics, who have been speaking to me and urging me to make the case for retaining these services.

And I ask the Minister to also consider this, given the recruitment challenges and the staffing challenges we have in the health service in Wales. I want her to remember the value of having centres that attract the best doctors, the best paramedics to places like Dinas Dinlle and the huge blow that will make it easier to have a centre in the middle of north Wales to attract doctors from the north-west of England to serve on the air ambulance, because that's what doctors themselves are telling me is at risk of happening.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. As I said, I have asked for more information about the impact that the consultation has had on the recommendation, so, I'm looking forward to receiving that information. I think it's also worth saying that the charity itself, the air ambulance, they started along this path and so, ultimately, they will have a voice in how this ends up. So, I'm very eager to receive a response and we'll see where my rights, as a Minister, are to intervene. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 5 is next, the 90-second statements. The first statement is from Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Llywydd. Today is Swallow Awareness Day. We often take for granted our ability to have a drink or share a meal with family and friends. It's something you just do. But, for some, that is not the case. Swallow Awareness Day reminds us that eating, drinking and swallowing difficulties are common and they often occur with other health conditions, such as following a stroke, or a diagnosis of Parkinson's or dementia.

Swallowing difficulties, or dysphagia, to use the medical term, can affect people of every age and every stage of life, from newborn babies to people nearing the end of life. Some of the signs and symptoms of eating, drinking and swallowing difficulties are food getting stuck in the throat, difficulty chewing or controlling food or fluids in the mouth, recurrent chest infections or pneumonia, or food or drink coming out of the nose when swallowing and anxiety when eating, drinking or swallowing. Now, eating, drinking and swallowing difficulties can lead to a poorer quality of life for individuals and their families due to embarrassment and lack of enjoyment of food. Dysphagia can also have potentially life-threatening consequences. It can result in choking, pneumonia, chest infections, dehydration and malnutrition, resulting in avoidable hospital admission and in some cases, sadly, death.

But our speech and language therapists have a unique role to play in the assessment and the diagnosis and the management of swallowing difficulties. I recently visited speech and language therapists at the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend to learn more about their work in this area, and I was struck by their expertise and compassion. Llywydd, I hope a number of Members here in the Senedd had the opportunity to attend the swallowing cafe hosted by the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists and Mabon today, in conjunction with the Senedd catering team, to learn first-hand about the impacts of this. So, today, on Swallow Awareness Day, Llywydd, we pay tribute to the amazing professionals who help all those living with or supporting people with eating and swallowing difficulties.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, everyone.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Tomorrow, Thursday 14 March, is World Kidney Day. The number of adults in Wales receiving treatment, either via a kidney transplant or dialysis, is over 3,000 and is estimated to increase by 3 per cent per year, based on the latest data published by the UK Renal Registry. There are also 38 children receiving treatment for kidney failure.

Last week, I held an event for the Popham Kidney Support, which is based in my constituency, a charity that supports people throughout Wales with kidney disease. It was surprising to see, at the event held in the Senedd, the number of staff working at the Senedd who called in who had relatives or friends suffering with kidney problems. When your kidneys are damaged, waste products and fluids can build up in your body. This can cause swelling in your ankles, nausea, weakness, poor sleep and shortness of breath. Without treatment, the damage can get worse and your kidneys eventually stop working. Early signs of kidney disease include dizziness and fatigue and one of the first possible signs of weakening kidneys is the experience of overall weakness in yourself and your overall health, swelling and changes in urination. The problem with this, like a lot of these symptoms, is that an awful lot of other diseases are picked up by the same symptoms. So, I would urge people, if they have those symptoms, to visit their GP.

Chronic kidney disease is a long-term condition, where kidneys do not work as well as they should. It's a common condition often associated with getting older, but I think it's important that we look after our kidneys and that we take every opportunity to visit our GP if we need.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Diolch, Llywydd. On Sunday, at 12.19 p.m., at the age of just 32, Tassia Haines passed away after a fierce eight-year journey with primary and secondary breast cancer.

All here have either met Tassia, or have, at the very least, received the many lobbying e-mails from her. I first met Tassia in 2021, when she came to my office to ask me to raise an issue with the Welsh Government about a lack of provision for secondary breast cancer patients in Wales. What followed was an explosion of enthusiasm, determination and tenacity not to accept answers that were just words, but actions that would deliver better services for those patients who would follow her in receiving a diagnosis of secondary breast cancer. This included a petition to the Senedd's Petition Committee, titled 'Don't leave metastatic breast cancer patients in Wales behind', which received over 14,000 signatures and was debated here in the Siambr.

What a journey Tassia's activism has taken, particularly in the last two years. Huge progress has been made as a consequence of her determination to strengthen the provision for secondary breast cancer patients in Wales. A new MBC pathway was approved by the Wales cancer network, which will be rolled out across Wales NHS trusts, and work is ongoing to secure secondary breast cancer nurse specialists everywhere in health boards across Wales. Last year, I was pleased to host Tassia and METUPUK in the Pierhead as they released new red-flag symptoms guidance across the trusts and primary care provision.

But Tassia wasn't just an activist, she was a strong patient advocate for MBC patients in Wales, and inspired tens of thousands on social media across the world, as she documented her journey with breast cancer. But we forget the other side of her, as she was also a very talent artist, and she often channelled her artistry through her activism. Now, she is survived by her husband Nick and her mother Gina, and, on behalf of Members across the Siambr, I send them our condolences at this sad and difficult time.

To conclude, Llywydd, Tassia would want me to say here that her death, whilst tragic, is not an anomaly, and around 12,000 women each year in the UK die of secondary breast cancer. It remains one of the leading causes of death in women. Whilst Tassia may no longer be leading that campaign, it is incumbent upon all of us here to ensure that her legacy will be improved specialist care for patients still living with this terrible disease in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Tassia, for everything.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for that very strong tribute to Tassia, and our thoughts as a Senedd are with her family at this very difficult time. But, diolch, Tassia.

6. Debate on the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee Report, 'Town Centre Regeneration'

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 6, therefore, is a debate on the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee's report on 'Town Centre Regeneration'. The Chair to move the motion, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Prynhawn da. Good afternoon. Thank you, Llywydd, for the opportunity to discuss the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee’s report on town centre regeneration. Our report touches all of our communities and constituencies. This inquiry considered the Auditor General for Wales’s report, 'Regenerating Town Centres in Wales', published in September 2021. This report considered how local authorities managed and regenerated their town centres and how the Welsh Government was helping them to meet this challenge. It identified four key areas for local authorities to consider, focusing on four key headings.

First, the intention: local authorities being clearer on the purpose of their town centres and providing leadership to address the challenges. Secondly, involvement: communities and businesses need to be fully involved in the process. Thirdly, informed: local authorities need to value and use data more effectively to understand their towns and the impact of previous regeneration initiatives. And fourthly, intervention: local authorities need to be more interventionist in promoting regeneration.

The auditor general’s work followed an independent research report, commissioned by the Welsh Government, entitled 'Small Towns, Big Issues'. This report included an in-depth study of three Welsh town and city centres, Bangor, Bridgend and Haverfordwest, to inform consideration of the wider context around regeneration. The committee met with one of the report’s authors, Professor Karel Williams, at the outset of our inquiry to better understand the scope of the committee’s work in this area. Following the session, we agreed to consider the following key points: national policy and legislation that are critical to the regeneration of towns to enable them to thrive and survive; creating and sustaining local coalitions of change; non-domestic rates, town centre incentives and taxes; the availability, management and impact of Welsh and UK Government funding for town centre regeneration; and city deals and regional partnerships, and corporate joint committees.

The committee was pleased to visit Carmarthen, Morriston, Mold and Wrexham to hear from local stakeholders who are working in their communities to further this purpose. This included meetings with Carmarthenshire County Council, Swansea Council, Coastal Housing group, Mold Town Council, and Wrexham County Borough Council. It was a pleasure to hear about the positive work being done, but sobering to hear about the challenges that each location was also facing. We were pleased to see examples of good practice during all of these visits, including the repurposed former Debenhams store in Carmarthen, now acting as a local hub for services, as well as hearing about exciting initiatives in Wrexham, including the Wrexham Gateway project and national football museum. We also visited Mold’s historic Bailey Hill, redeveloped as a community asset for local people, and were able to see the good work being done to revitalise and promote the high streets in Mold and Morriston—which I believe Mike Hedges might speak about later—through local action and stakeholders.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

The committee extends its sincere appreciation to everyone who contributed to these visits and provided the committee with valuable insight that influenced the committee’s conclusions. In addition to these visits, the committee heard from Phil Prentice, from Scotland’s Towns Partnership, as well as Richard Roe from Trafford Council, about experiences, both positive and negative, of regeneration in Scotland and England. We also heard from the Federation of Small Businesses Wales, as well as Chris Jones, an expert in regeneration. We also consulted more widely, receiving valuable written evidence from the Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru, One Voice Wales, the Federation of Small Businesses and local authorities.

We learned that whilst there is much good work being done to improve town centres in Wales, more needs to be done to accelerate the pace of regeneration, where Wales’s towns and high streets have changed immeasurably, and been changed immeasurably by the pandemic and the increased prevalence of online shopping, and financial pressures continue to affect every community. Indeed, the committee found that resources for regeneration varied across Wales with some local authorities having dedicated resources in place for regeneration, whilst other areas depended on more local structures.

We heard that poor transport links and availability of car parking is affecting footfall in town centres, to the detriment of local businesses, that the lack of simple and integrated transport systems are preventing people from visiting town centres more often, preferring to use out-of-town locations instead, and that the current non-domestic rates regime disincentivises investment in towns, preventing the redevelopment of empty properties and putting additional pressures on small businesses already struggling with rising energy costs. We found that a new vision was needed on high streets to be accompanied by a truly integrated and affordable transport system, a simple approach to taxation, financial incentives to encourage innovation and new businesses, simpler and more accessible planning regulations to support this, and a pragmatic approach to repurposing empty properties with encouragement and support for businesses to do so.

This will only be successful, we found, if more is done at a national level to empower our communities to make the decisions to improve their communities, and if there is a stronger regional approach to regeneration, empowering stakeholders to make the big decisions that are right for their area.

Whilst local coalitions for change are also invaluable, they will only succeed if the Welsh Government adopts the new approach to regeneration and supports these local coalitions accordingly. The committee made eight recommendations to the Welsh Government, focusing on non-domestic rates, planning policy, transport, regional partnerships and on empty properties. Although we’re pleased that all of these recommendations have been accepted by the Welsh Government, the committee would still like further information on some of the recommendations we made, to understand more about the monitoring, evaluation, timescales and implementation involved.

The committee made a series of recommendations around the work of corporate joint committees in regeneration, calling for increased transparency around their composition and the resources provided to them, and further information from the Welsh Government about how they will be monitoring these recommendations would be welcome. We note the Auditor General for Wales’s work in evaluating the role of corporate joint committees in his report from November 2023. We concur with his conclusions that more must be done to increase the transparency of these organisations, in order for the public to better understand their work and the impact they are or are not having. In the context of the development of regional transport plans by corporate joint committees, our report also noted that the Federation of Small Businesses Wales told the committee,

'We know that when we talk to businesses and when we talk to customers, things like affordable and available parking are still a really fundamental part of the conversation'.

The current non-domestic rates regime disincentives investment in towns, preventing the redevelopment of empty properties and putting additional pressure on small businesses already struggling with rising energy costs. Although the committee are pleased to hear about the Welsh Government's improvement relief, which will ease the burden for businesses investing in their properties, and we note the consultation conclusions showing a majority of those responses being in support of the relief, we also note that the consultation showed a majority calling for a longer period of relief for businesses making these vital investments. We therefore ask the Welsh Government to consider whether this new scheme could be tweaked to provide further incentive for businesses to invest and grow, and to respond to the concern in our report about the failure of the current non-domestic rate mechanism to accurately reflect the true rateable value of properties, where maintaining a retail presence punishes businesses to such an extent compared with online-only retailers.

On planning, the committee recommended that a more interventionist approach is required to favour centre-of-town developments over out-of-town developments. Whilst acknowledging the Welsh Government's response, further information about how existing schemes are to be used to be more interventionist is required. The committee would also like to know how the Welsh Government is monitoring and evaluating the system to determine if this is being achieved.

Our report recommended that the Welsh Government should formulate a comprehensive guidance document for local authorities that clearly outlines the options available to local authorities in respect of repurposing empty properties. And, in accepting this, the Welsh Government stated that the Unnos programme is supporting local authorities to take appropriate enforcement action on empty and dilapidated properties. However, the Unnos programme was launched some two years before our report and, although the committee notes the role of Unnos in revitalising derelict and empty buildings, there remains very little information in the public domain about the work of Unnos to date and its planned activities for the future. More therefore needs to done to communicate their work and the Welsh Government should ensure that there are robust evaluation mechanisms in place to ensure the objectives set out in our recommendations are being delivered.

Finally, in response to our recommendation that the Welsh Government should undertake a review of the financial assistance available to local authorities for repurposing empty properties, and consider whether these schemes and the funds allocated to them are sufficient to meet their objectives, we note that in accepting this, the Welsh Government response states that

'Costs can be met from existing budgets.'

However, it's uncertain whether existing budgets will be sufficient to deliver the pace and scale of change required, and we would welcome further detail from the Welsh Government on how they will look to deliver this recommendation. The committee looks forward to working with Welsh Government to progress the ideas contained within our report and will be closely monitoring the implementation of our recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I'm very pleased that the PAPAC committee undertook the study on town centre regeneration and that we have been allowed a debate on this today.

Concentrating on Morriston, where I live and where my constituency office is situated, the committee was able to walk along Woodfield Street in Morriston, which has featured extensively in the Transforming Towns report, and had the opportunity to meet with council and housing association officials, and we discussed a changing picture of the businesses occupying the street. The committee also visited Morriston Tabernacle church and the Sacred Heart Centre, both of which are being used as a community resource for local community groups.

The committee also heard about the proposed development of St John's church—for those who know the area, known as the 'church in the middle of the road'—and the former Crown public house. It was noted by the committee that Morriston was now dominated by personal service businesses—hairdressers, nail bars, cafes and tattoo parlours; I'm sure that sounds familiar to everybody else in here when you look at town centres—moving away from the more traditional retail offering it used to have. It was noted the high street has recently lost both Lloyds and Halifax banks, following the loss of all the other banks from the high street. Only the Principality Building Society and a NatWest cash point remain.

The committee heard about the work of Regeneration Morriston, a partnership group that is active in many of the above development schemes, amongst others. The group also provides start-up grants to support new business start-ups, offers advice and support to businesses, and has conducted special events to drive visitors to the town. The partnership has also utilised the town centre loan fund, of which £2 million has been provided to the partnership group by the Welsh Government. This was intended to acquire and unlock sites and premises with the intention of packaging and selling a proposal on the open market within an agreed time frame.

Professor Karel Williams advocated for the creation of local coalitions for change, drawing on the skills, expertise, finances and legitimacy of a range of local interests—for instance the local traders, civic society, anchor institutions and the different tiers of Government. He sees these coalitions as being able to create strong local movements that bring people together collectively to improve their towns. And people do belong to a town. If you ask people in Morriston where they come from, they'll tell you 'Morriston'. They won't tell you 'Swansea' and they won't tell you 'Wales'. They'll tell you they come from Morriston. And I'm sure that if I went to lots of other small towns and asked them where they came from, they wouldn't talk about the big area that they're covered in; they will tell you about where they live, which is the village or town in which they live.

What has been described as what is needed includes a shared vision that connects the place and mobilises different actors, stakeholders organising into an alliance capable of delivering a stream of coherent projects, and 'projects plus', which are more than buildings because they connect to different communities and have a social dimension. The days of town centres being predominantly retail have ended. We aren't in the 1950s, we're not in the 1960s, we're not in the 1970s. We live in a fast-changing world. The world has changed, especially post the COVID pandemic. Since we visited Morriston, Boots has also closed. This follows the closure of Debenhams and Wilko stores across the UK. I recently made a list of retailers that have closed in the last 20 years. It was both long and depressing, and if I read out only the big ones I would run out of time. What we have seen is the growth of online retailers, with either home delivery or click and collect. In November 2023, the value of internet sales as a percentage of total retail sales in Britain was over 30 per cent. The percentage is higher in the UK fashion retail market, where the online share is 41 per cent, and it's expected to increase to almost 50 per cent by 2028.

Generation Z, as they're called, born from the mid-1990s through to the early 2010s, have been brought up in the digital age, and they are avid online shoppers. In fact, they're avid online doing everything, and I think that is the difference. Look at the shops, move on 30 years, and guess how many of those people will still be alive. That is a problem. Shops in town centres are dependent on a rapidly ageing group. Alongside the loss of retailers, we've seen the closure of bank branches. This has come about by using debit and credit cards instead of cash for more transactions. Globally, cash accounts for 16 per cent of payments, while debit cards are 23 per cent, credit cards are 26 per cent, and digital wallets—or using your phone, as younger people tell me—for 32 per cent. Card processing fees are typically 1.5 per cent to 3.5 per cent, but they can be as high as 6 per cent per sale item. What we could do to help out is to use cash when making a purchase from a small local retailer. It will help them, and it will cost you the same. Use shops in shopping centres and local shops—

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Would you take an intervention, Mike?

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Yes, certainly.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Do you recognise the importance of banking hubs? One was recently opened in my constituency and it's run by the Post Office and through LINK, who traditionally use cash machines, so that could be another solution to the banking problem, perhaps, in Morriston, as well as what it has been in Prestatyn as well.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

There is certainly a mobile banking hub in Morriston, but the problem is not the lack of a banking hub; the problem is that people tend not to use money. They use the methods of debit and credit cards and their phones.

Use shops in shopping centres, as I've said. I'm always reminded of the person who, when I was delivering leaflets, told me that there were not enough city and town centre shops, as their online deliveries were being received. To use a rugby referee's comment on local shops, 'Use them or lose them'.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'd like to start by thanking the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee team, the Chair, alongside our researchers, and also the Members as well for putting a lot of hard work and dedication into putting this report together. The report highlights some very important points around the challenges that we undoubtedly face in getting our Welsh towns into the highest possible standards to ensure that we have effective and prospering community hubs, shops, services and, ultimately, thriving local economies. Whilst all the points and solutions in the report carry significant weight in the future of our town centres, there are a few main areas that I'd like to give my focus to today.

Firstly, we all know that projects to regenerate and invest in our town centres do indeed require significant funding. It is important to note that, whilst national funding schemes operated by the UK Government are awarded via levelling up, which has provided £440 million to Welsh projects since the first round was announced in October 2021, the Welsh Government's funding system is divided into 13 separate funding schemes. The auditor general's report identified management of this funding by the Welsh Government as 'problematic', and recommended that it ought to be consolidated in order to reduce bureaucracy and streamline the application process. As we know, Minister, making this funding easier to access would ultimately encourage more organisations to apply for funding, making town centre regeneration more accessible, and also attractive for organisations to get involved with.

Therefore, having accepted the recommendation, what is the Welsh Government now going to be doing to ensure funding schemes are more streamlined and that requests for supporting materials in applications are kept to a minimum to ensure that the process is easier, more attractive, and we therefore see more of these projects go ahead? In conjunction with this, I'd like to ask the Minister what is the Welsh Government doing to raise awareness amongst the public about your Transforming Towns loan fund programme so that private businesses, social housing associations and property developers are aware of the options available to them and can therefore be supported by their local authorities to ultimately benefit communities.

Another area of the report findings that really concerned me, Minister, was that which suggested funding is often directed to local authorities who are effective at making applications, which risks better resourced authorities being rewarded, and punishing those who lack resources. This issue is further exacerbated by the fragmented nature of funding schemes. With this in mind, I'd like to ask the Minister what conversations have you had with the UK Government to confirm that this is not actually the case. And what funding schemes, on both Welsh and UK-wide levels, are running in parallel, despite political differences, to ensure our town centres are adequately supported?

In addition to funding, transportation—I know my colleagues have mentioned this—and access to local facilities carry a huge weight in communities' ability to thrive. The report has found that

'Many town-centre businesses are impacted adversely by charging for car parking, access to public transport and poor transport infrastructure.'

The report also went on to note that availability of car parking and poor public transport alternatives are key barriers to people visiting their town centres more frequently, alongside individuals responding to the survey noting that the deterioration of roads and inadequate public transport are more generally the reasons why. We are seeing a classic example here of Labour's war on motorists: a lack of parking, or, when it is available, it is extortionately expensive, yet no viable public transport alternatives are there in place. So, Minister, I'd like to know what is the Welsh Government doing to increase public transport links such as buses directly into town centres, particularly in rural areas, so that our businesses do not suffer as a direct impact of the Welsh Government's incompetency when it comes to transport.

The Welsh Government's very own town centres position statement from May 2023 also noted that a deepening dependency on the private car has supported the continued development of out-of-town locations and encouraged a move away from town-centre living. Whilst this brings many opportunities for development elsewhere, which of course has its benefits, it also poses a risk of decreased investment and footfall in our town centres. We cannot afford for this to happen. Our businesses have already been punished by this Welsh Labour Government as they lowered 75 per cent business rate relief to 40 per cent. They need support, Minister, and solutions, not control and financial attacks. So, I'd like to know what the Government's going to be doing to actively encourage people in town centres and support our businesses in remaining at the heart of them, so we do not see more vacant stores and more damage to the Welsh economy.

Finally, Minister, will you also commit to investigating the lack of parking in town centres, and what can be done to tackle this issue, going forward? Either more transport links or more provision of parking is indeed going to be needed to boost investment and growth in all of our town centres across Wales. And whilst I'd love to see both, I'm not confident the Deputy Minister will improve these links with just over a week to go, as he has hasn't managed to do it in the last three years.

To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, we all know how important our town centres are as economical, cultural and social hubs for many communities. I really hope this Welsh Government—and the next one—seriously does take this report on board, as well as its recommendations, and not just accept them. Thank you.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I really welcome the report by the committee, and I welcome the Welsh Government's response to the report as well, but, of course, this requires action to follow through on a number of ideas that have been raised in the report. I wanted to focus on three aspects of the report in particular. The first two are linked, and that's planning and empty properties.

I think the committee is completely right in highlighting that the planning system is one element of town centre regeneration, but its flexibility is actually a very important element—one that, if we don't get right, will hinder a lot of our ambitions in other areas of redevelopment. What I would actually like to see is an enabling system for local authorities. We heard mention of the need for local authorities to be more interventionist. Well, we need to be able to enable them to be interventionist, to move quickly when situations arise. I'm thinking here of bringing empty properties back into use, yes, but I'm also thinking about converting commercial properties into residential properties.

I'm thinking about with Bridgend town centre, where my office is, and there are about four or five floors of empty office space above my own office. We know that there's a problem with housing supply; we know that there's an acute shortage of one- to two-bed flats. Well, there are plenty of places within our town centres that I think, if we put the investment into them, can help fill that gap and help address that shortage. And, of course, the theory then follows that by bringing people into the town centre to live, you're creating that in-built footfall, aren't you, because those people are going to want services, they're going to want to go for a coffee, they're going to want to go for food, they're going to want to go for a pint. So, you're creating that in-built footfall. That's something I would really appreciate some reflections from the Minister on.

Finally, I'll touch on NDR. I really welcome paragraph 163 on the multiplier. As the committee highlights, this is a real opportunity for us to be really creative in our thinking about how we deal with non-domestic rates. We've talked a lot over the past couple of months in response to the Welsh Government's budget about the need to look at the multiplier and how we might be able to vary that for different sectors of the economy. Not that I'm showing any prejudice here, but I think, looking at supermarkets, for example, thinking about out-of-town shopping centres, are they paying too little? I would argue they are. But by varying the multiplier and increasing the amount of money then that supermarkets and out-of-town shopping centres are paying into the system, we could then use that finance to help small businesses and local businesses on our high streets. Yes, okay, a lot of these places are good for the individual consumer, but they're not necessarily good for the community, and of course we have to address that imbalance between online shopping and bricks-and-mortar shops as well. So, I would echo recommendation 5 of the committee's report, and, again, I'd really appreciate some reflections from the Minister on that point.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Town centres really are the heartbeat of our local communities; they speak to us about who we are as people, as Mike was saying, and where we're from. I rarely say where I'm from except by saying 'Tredegar', and that seems to be sufficient for most people. But Tredegar isn't the place it was when I grew up, of course. When I was growing up there, I'd save up my pocket money, do my work to earn a few more pennies, and then I'd go down to Irene's to buy Airfix models and stuff, and to buy footballs from town and the rest of it, but you can't do that today. You can't have the same range of shops; you don't have the same opportunities in town as you had in the past. And that's not going to change in the future, in many ways, because the town centres that we see today are the consequences of choices that were made in the past and are the consequences of technological change, retail change, social change and transport changing.

To travel to Cardiff when I was growing up was a major expedition. You'd either go across to Rhymney to get the train, or you'd get the bus, and it would take you two hours by bus to get to Cardiff. Nowadays, people drive back and forth and commute to Cardiff; that would have been unheard of in the 1970s. So, we live in a different place, and I think harking back to how things were is not very helpful in trying to chart a way forward for the future. But I also think that we're not in a new place simply because a change has been imposed on us. It's also because we—I say 'we' collectively as a society—have taken decisions about the sorts of places that we want to live in. We've bought into a model of almost rapacious American retail capitalism that has drained the heart out of our town centres. The consequence is that if I want to buy anything—Christmas presents and the rest of it—today, I would more likely go to the Cyfarthfa retail park in Merthyr than I would to stay in my own community, and that is a consequence of the choices that were made for us and by us.

So, what do we do? We know that there are different ways forward. Many of you will know I spend as much time as I can, sometimes, on the European mainland, and if you're driving through Belgium or Holland or France or Germany, and you stop off and you go to different towns and villages, you see communities that do have the heart in the town centre, that do have choices of independent shops and restaurants and cafes, and do have the opportunity to shop and to enjoy a community experience, as we did some years ago. And in the United Kingdom, we are different, and we are different because of choices that are being made by successive Governments. I think, for the future, we should make different choices, and we should ensure that the communities in which we all live have the same opportunities to thrive again. And post pandemic, what I'm seeing is, certainly, retail challenges in places like Cardiff. Let's face it, the cities are not immune from the changes that are taking place, and any of us who remember this city back some decades ago, and certainly pre pandemic, will have seen the impact of changing choices here in the city.

But those choices and those changes are far more profound in poorer and working-class communities. When I look at the impact of the pandemic on the communities in Blaenau Gwent, it is far greater and far more profound than it is in communities relatively close by—communities in Breconshire or Monmouthshire, which haven't had the same impact as we've seen in Blaenau Gwent. And we need to ask ourselves why. And that isn't about individual funding streams or individual policy decisions of individual Governments; it's about the whole package—an holistic package of change that we need to be able to deliver, if we want to recreate the town centres and the centres of the community that we would want our children to grow up in and for ourselves to retire in.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I find myself agreeing a lot with what the Member says. One of the things that I think could be usefully done, in order to address some of these issues, is to reduce business rates in our town centres and high streets, increase them on out-of-town shopping centres, many of which have been thriving, and, indeed, to increase them for those online-only retailers who seem to be faring rather well. Would you agree that that is one part of the prescription that could go some way to addressing some of these challenges that high streets in your constituency, and indeed mine, have faced in recent years?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Yes, I absolutely agree with the Member. I don't think this is an area that divides the Chamber, actually. I think all of us will have the same sort of ambition, and I think the points that the Member makes are well made, and I do agree with the sort of suggestions that he makes. But we need to go further than that, don't we, because we have to be able to enable people to live and work and socialise in the centres of our communities. That means we also need to ensure that we have digital access available as a right and as a matter of course. In many parts of my constituency, you've got a poor mobile phone signal and absolutely no chance of mobile broadband, and that, in 2024, is completely unacceptable, and we need to say that clearly. I won't test the patience of our acting Chair any longer, simply to say that I think the report is an excellent report, and I hope the Government response will be a response to the report itself, but also a response to the challenges we face. Thank you very much.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Well, it's always good to agree with Darren Millar, particularly on this issue. But I think it's really important to remember that a lot of these online retailers are international organisations, and they don't have any land base; they're in some Virgin Islands or some other tax haven, tax horror. How are we going to get them? So, this really is a multinational problem that we need to think of globally, because there's no doubt that some people just avoid paying all taxes altogether.

I'm a big fan of the 15-minute city, not least because, for a lot of my constituents, if they can't walk to it, they can't afford to buy it, simply because their money is so short, the bus fare to get there and back from an alternative location is just a huge disincentive. And as we cope with the climate change that we need to make, to be consistent in our net-zero obligations, we've got to be thinking about what are the weekly things that everybody needs to shop for, and how can people get to them. The occasional shop involves further travel.

So, I think that we've all grappled with the villages that lose their primary school and then they lose their shop, and then they really do lose the potential for any sort of human discourse within that community, and that is very, very damaging, potentially. But this isn't just a village and town-centre problem, this is also something that Cardiff city centre has also had to get to grips with, and it isn't just COVID. The hospitality sector is also having a very difficult time because there's just less money in circulation and, inevitably, discretionary spend takes a big hit.

But I want to commend, for example, Landsec's major bold redevelopment of the Debenhams site, which was a hideous building and had no potential for residential reuse simply because of the way it was constructed. There was not enough natural light and you really don't want people walking past your living room when they're on the way to somewhere. So, I think their bold idea of creating a town square where families can go and have a picnic while they're on a trip out to the shops, or to have artistic space for musicians or street artists, is very good. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they're doing it because that's their way of protecting their considerable assets in Cardiff, therefore they have to— . They have, if you like, the resources to rethink the purpose of town and city centres, given that online shopping is not a blip of COVID-19 but a trend that appears to be here to stay.

So, town centres can't just be about the spending of money. The cost-of-living crisis, of which there is no end and is the daily reality of at least a third of the population, means that town centres have to be places to meet and socialise, exchange ideas, be enriched by cultural stipulation, whether that's the visual beauty of a flower box or a major cultural event, or a sporting event.

I think one of the real problems we have to deal with is the prevalence of these out-of-town shopping centres, and I completely support the committee's recommendation about disincentivising that, but it is very, very difficult to resist once anchor companies like Marks and Spencer decide to move out of town. And I'm fully aware that my colleague Jeremy Miles has been grappling with exactly that problem where they're moving out of Neath, and that has a real threat to that particular historic town.

But I think that one of the ways we can perhaps approach this, both with tax incentives and also when we're dealing with the upcoming bus Bill, is that we need to ensure that if companies feel they're better placed by moving out of town, it should be incumbent on them to provide the bus service for those who need to go to them, because otherwise we're just increasing car traffic and that's in breach of 'Llwybr Newydd'. So, we need to strengthen the planning system to ensure that we can make that happen. They should pay for the vehicles that enable everybody to get to their shops, and that includes the proportion of the population that doesn't have a vehicle.

But just to sum up, I think we should acknowledge what is a major ethos of Mark Drakeford's time as First Minister, which is that local authorities are best placed to know what their areas need and no two town centres are the same. Therefore, the recommendation to put more flexibility into the criteria for town-centre incentives is very welcome, and I think one that we should build on.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I'd like to begin by thanking the committee for its report, which I think is very timely and very useful. There is quite a degree of common ground, isn't there, across the Chamber, as we’ve already heard, and we’re all familiar with the challenges of online shopping, out-of-centre development, the effects of the pandemic, and many others. It’s a very challenging set of circumstances, so obviously it requires a wide-ranging set of responses. And I very much agree that that does have to be locally based in terms of local partnerships, because I know that the centres that are important in my constituency, and to my constituency, vary in size, and the solutions to the issues will vary accordingly. For Newport city centre, there’s been a great deal of necessary investment, but obviously a lot more needs to be done—a lot of new residential provision; a big project to redevelop the market in the centre; recently we’ve had a 500-space music venue, the Corn Exchange, opening, which has created a lot of excitement and a real buzz; more public services, more leisure, entertainment. There’s been a lot of diversification. But I very much agree, as Luke Fletcher said, that in terms of residential, it does meet a lot of our pressing challenges in Wales, doesn’t it? It helps with that diversification, it helps with footfall, but it also provides particularly, perhaps, those smaller properties that are much in demand in terms of housing provision. So, I think a lot more of that would be very useful indeed.

In Caldicot, in Newport East—it’s much smaller, obviously, than Newport city centre; it's a town—some of the challenges are about identifying ownership of property and then getting the owners of the premises to be accommodating and co-operative with some of the action that’s required. But, again, a lot of effort has gone into improving that centre, making it more of a quality space for people to sit around and meet up. These centres are very important for those social purposes. And there’s a Caldicot town team that puts on events and helps diversify the offer and attract people into the town centre. And in Magor, which is a village, it’s much more about quality local independent businesses making that quality offer that local people want to see. We know very well, don’t we, that if we have these locally owned businesses making the profits in these centres, they will spend those profits locally, so you get that virtuous circle of investment and spend, whereas the big operators actually suck money out of these centres, which is no good to the local economies at all.

And one of the advantages as well, I think, is having a wide-ranging approach to the problems. If we look at Newport, for example, just across the way from the city centre we have Rodney Parade, the home of Newport County, the home of the Dragons rugby team. Public transport is close by, so when you get the big matches, the big occasions, all of those people, all of that footfall, is in Newport city centre. There are so many aspects. So many big teams have relocated, haven’t they, again, to the periphery of towns and cities, so you don’t get that effect, you don’t get that buzz on the big-match occasions and, indeed, on all of the games that they play throughout the seasons.

So, I really do think that we need that wide-ranging approach that recognises the flexibility that’s so important—city centres, town centres, village centres—and working with the local partnerships and the local authorities who best understand those local circumstances. I do believe this report reflects the requirement for that sort of approach, and puts some very useful recommendations forward, and I’m sure the Government will have a very close look at it, and I welcome the response that they’ve already made. Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I'd also like to thank the Chair and members of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, and all of those who took the time to provide evidence to the committee's inquiry, and I would also like to extend my thanks to the auditor general and his team for their valuable contribution to this important piece of work. I am pleased to confirm that we have accepted all the committee's recommendations in full.

I think, as every Member has acknowledged in this debate, our town centres are facing unprecedented challenges. The impact of out-of-town developments, changing retail habits and the COVID pandemic have all had consequences for our high streets. There are, indeed, too many empty shops, too few homes and too little green space in our town centres, and we all want our town centres to be places where we can live, work and play. The Welsh Government is determined to achieve this vision by giving a clear strategic lead and supporting our local authorities' regeneration activities. This is already reflected in our programme for government through specific commitments around supporting our town centres. These commitments include supporting work to develop a register of empty buildings, and helping small businesses move into empty shops.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Today, I would like to address some of the main issues raised by the committee in its recommendations, as well as some of the broader challenges affecting our town centres. Through 'Future Wales' and 'Planning Policy Wales', we have strengthened our 'town centre first' policy. It's delivered at the local level by local development plan policies and decisions on planning applications. It's also a cross-cutting principle embedded in the Wales infrastructure investment strategy. And just to make that really clear, 'town centre first' means that we want to see town centres considered first for the location of significant new commercial, retail, education, health, leisure and public service facilities. This diverse range of services will, indeed, drive footfall into our town centres.

When I launched our town centres position statement in May last year, I was very clear that regenerating town centres is a complex piece of work. We must consider the reasons behind services moving from town centres to out-of-town locations, the growth of online shopping, private car dependency, local capacity to deliver and, of course, the climate and nature emergencies. I launched that strategy, actually, in Neath town centre—a town where I did live for a short while when I was a small child. My father ran a pub in Neath town centre. That then became a shoe shop and is now a charity store, which, I think, is a very good indication of the passage of time through the centre. But I was very pleased to launch the policy standing outside the new leisure centre and library facility in Neath, which has had a real catalytic effect on bringing people back in. It has to be a welcoming space, doesn't it, for people to come.

And I very much enjoyed my visit to Newport and the new market, and the experimental, but now to be rolled out, using of the premises above the shops there and along the new—I've forgotten what it's called—arcade, the market arcade, is it, coming up there, which was lovely, where we've used as residences what were vacant spaces above the shops. But we've turned them all into residences, as I know, John, with your and Jayne Bryant's assistance, and with the council's assistance, and that's really had a galvanising effect on that area as well, hasn't it? It was really lovely; I really enjoyed the visit there. I make the point, really, just to say that it can be done, but you need a concerted effort and a range of services to put into it.

And then Mike's point about which towns do you identify with: so, one of the other things about our 'town centre first' policy is that we have had to consider, especially in the cities—. I absolutely acknowledge Mike's point. I come from a different centre of Swansea. But if you said 'town centre first' in Swansea, you might end up just saying the city centre, and that wouldn't be a good policy either; you also want all of the suburban centres to be regarded as town centres. So, it's a complex piece of work. Sometimes those regional centres rise and fall in a way that's not really very predictable. I'm from an area in Swansea called Uplands, and that's currently having a bit of a resurgence, but it's very difficult to understand quite what the zeitgeist for the rise and fall of that is. So, I make these anecdotal points, really, to just point out that there are wide-ranging issues affecting all of the town centres, and these are all reflected in the committee's very thorough report and their recommendations.

Many of the levers to regenerate our town centres do sit with local authorities, but we recognise that the Welsh Government is a key enabler. We do have a flagship Transforming Towns programme, and that's providing £125 million of grant and loan funding over three years to support that work. Transforming Towns is a co-ordinated but flexible package of support, and how it's utilised is driven by local authorities, using their unique local knowledge to prioritise investment based on placemaking plans, specifically for the reason that I just mentioned, which is that they are best placed to know where those regional and city centres are best located. Transforming Towns is a catalyst for change to reinvent town centres across Wales, but we do need to ensure that the programme keeps pace with the needs of our towns, and we will be conducting a review of the Transforming Towns programme in 2024-25, and that will include an assessment of the criteria used to assess funding applications, which Mark and, I think, Jenny, and a number of other people have mentioned.

The committee also specifically raised the issue of empty properties. We absolutely agree that empty properties are a blight, not just on town centres, but on all our communities more widely. It is unacceptable that there are so many empty homes when so many people are experiencing homelessness, and I am determined to support local authorities in their attempts to bring empty properties, both residential and commercial, back into use. This is reflected by the many ways in which support is given across a number of grant and loan schemes.

Just on that, I just want to recommend to Members, if they do have derelict buildings in their own town centres, to bring that to our attention. We have been working with our local authorities to make sure that they can use their compulsory purchase order powers very effectively. So, sometimes, as John said, I think, it can be very difficult to trace the owner of the building, so we are enabling our local authorities to do that piece of work and then use CPO powers, where the company often turns out, and it has in my own patch, to be just an investment company somewhere or other that doesn't even know that they own the piece of real estate in question, but it's actually having a really blighting effect on the town. They're just sitting on it as part of a massive portfolio of 'investment', in inverted commas. That's had quite a galvanising effect. Any of you who know High Street in Swansea, for example, will see the difference in that street as the council has actually compulsorily purchased the properties and brought them back into beneficial use.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Will you take an intervention, Minister?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, of course.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Will you acknowledge the work and efforts of the UK Government through the town fund, which is also helping in that situation, with £20 million in investment into Rhyl town centre in my constituency, and probably many more across Wales as well as a result of the spring budget? That's really helping, in line with what the Welsh Government are doing with local authorities, also the back-up with money from the UK Government as well.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, and what we've done, in many cases, is we've enabled either their funding to be used as a match for ours or ours to be used as a match for theirs, and, actually, you get a doubling effect, so that's been very helpful. I will say, though, that we haven't always had very much notice of that, so it's been very difficult to plan out where we might be able to most use the match funding. I and my colleague Lee Waters have raised with the Government that we welcome the funding, but, actually, some planning around where we might direct some of the funding so that we can double its effect in that way would be very, very useful.

Anyway, so going back to talking about the empty properties, I'm very, very keen that local authorities use their CPO powers in particular if they do have blighted, particularly heritage, buildings, which we've been looking at, and Mike's point about the churches is a very good one there, where we can definitely bring them back into beneficial use. Many of us have huge churches or chapels in our local town centres that are just sitting there doing nothing. They could easily be transformed into something much more useful for the modern day, and it also protects the cultural heritage. I did bring this up yesterday, when I was talking about the second homes issues as well.

So, in response to recommendation 7, I am very pleased to confirm that we will review, with the input of local authorities and stakeholders, the financial assistance made available to support tackling those empty properties. Members will be aware that the co-operation agreement committed the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru to establishing Unnos. Through Unnos's support, local authorities are taking appropriate enforcement action on those empty and dilapidated properties. The Unnos programme will also be developing a guidance document for local authorities on empty homes by the end of this calendar year.

So, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, the committee rightly raised the planning system as a policy area where changes can be made to support our town centres, and I'm pleased to say that we've been able to respond positively to the committee's recommendations on planning. 'Planning Policy Wales' and 'Future Wales' both have clear policies promoting 'town centre first' principles for the planning system in Wales. We will also undertake a review of permitted development rights and consult on the appropriateness of introducing new permitted development rights for town centres. This will consider whether we should permit a change of use without the need for planning permission. That can be a bit of a double-edged sword, so we have to be very careful that we have put the policies in place to make sure that, where those changes of use happen, they happen in an appropriate way and don't result in a proliferation of things that none of us would actually want to see proliferating in our town centres. So, it's not quite as straightforward as just removing the barrier, I don't think.

We will also consider whether to strengthen the implementation of the 'town centre first' policy by extending what's called the notification direction to include retail, commercial and public sector development proposals outside of town centres. That would have the effect of allowing Welsh Ministers to decide whether to call in an application for a decision instead of it being determined by the local planning authority, if the local planning authority appeared to be minded to grant an out-of-town planning consent of that sort.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I've been very generous, but you now need to conclude.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I was about to say that I'm rapidly running of time. I have several more issues to raise, so I will just really canter through them. Just on transport—

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Very, very quickly.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Just on transport, we wanted to highlight the evidence in the committee that we are considering very carefully what the transport policies should look like. The new corporate joint committees will be looking at the regional transport plans, which will assist with that. There are a number of things that fall outside my portfolio area, which I won't remark on, but we will be writing back to the committee with the recommendations in full. Diolch.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. My wrist hurts from all the scribbling, but I'll try and do what I can with the limited time available. I'll begin, I think, as one of my colleagues did, by thanking the clerking team, the researchers, the lawyers and the auditor general and Audit Wales team for their invaluable contribution—massive contribution—to the work undertaken by the committee on this report.

Mike Hedges, as I indicated he might, referred to a place called Morriston. He talked about the opportunity to meet with the council and housing association representatives and referred to a centre, a former church and former pub now used as community resources. He referred to a very topical issue—loss of banks on the high street. And I was pleased to hear him say, as somebody whose previous career was in a building society, that the only remaining effective bank or building society is the Principality, with a cash point remaining. He talked about the importance of local coalitions, bringing people together with a shared vision. He said that the days of town centres being predominantly retail have ended, with closures including Boots and Debenhams, and the growth of online retailers and click and collect, and shops increasingly reliant on an older age group of customers, and finished with a warning, 'Use them or lose them.'

Natasha Asghar focused on a number of main areas, funding, and referred to levelling-up funding from the UK Government and 13 separate Welsh Government schemes that require consolidation and streamlining to make the applications process easier and therefore benefit our town centres. She referred to town loan funding and said that funding is often directed to local authorities with resources to make good applications at the expense of the rest. She referred to poor car parking and transport infrastructure being key barriers to people visiting town centres and referred to business rates relief reductions being key, particularly when you look at comparative figures across the border and noted that town centres are economic and social hubs for communities.

Luke Fletcher called for action, rightly, to follow through from the Welsh Government response to the committee's recommendations. He referred to an enabling system for local authorities to be interventionist being needed, to bring empty properties back into use and convert commercial properties into homes. We need to be creative with the non-domestic rates multiplier, he said—I think all Members would agree with that—to favour centre-of-town retailers.

Alun Davies referred to town centres being the heartbeat of our local communities. He reminisced about buying Airfix models when he was young, as did I. But, harking back, as he said, to how things were is not helpful. He contrasted the situation here with European mainland communities, which do, as he said, have the heart in their town centres, and said that choices needed to be made where the poorest communities have the highest problems, requiring a holistic package of change to remake town centres as centres of communities by enabling people and also ensuring digital access. He concluded by saying that it was an excellent report, so thank you, Alun.

Jenny Rathbone—we've got to be thinking about weekly things that people need to shop for and how to get to them, which summarises the essence of the situation. She pointed out that the hospitality sector is also having a very difficult time, the benefits of town squares and shared public spaces, and she said that town centres can't just be about spending money, but also places to meet and socialise. We need to disincentivise out-of-town shopping centres, and local authorities are the best placed to know what their areas need. But, therefore, as I said earlier on in reflecting the report, they need to be empowered to be more interventionist.

John Griffiths talked about the importance of local partnerships of various sizes and varying solutions. He pointed out that locally owned businesses spend and invest locally, and the need for flexibility, whether it's city centres like Newport, or villages.

The Minister, Julie James, the Minister for Climate Change, said that our town centres are facing unprecedented challenges: too many empty shops, too few homes, too little green space. She referred to existing Welsh Government commitments and policies, including 'town centre first', but we need a concerted effort and range of services. She said that many of the levers still sit with local authorities and referred to derelict buildings and working with local authorities to use compulsory purchase powers. She may recall that I wrote to her last year, after meeting together with Colwyn Bay, saying they need those compulsory purchase powers to be enhanced if local groups are going to be able to deliver as they aspire to.

Gareth Davies intervened to point out there's also UK Government funding for town centres in places like Rhyl. The Minister said that she will review the financial assistance available to local authorities to repurpose properties. But I would point out, as I mentioned in my initial speech, we also asked the Welsh Government to review the funds allocated for this and how, in the future, funding might be considered accordingly. She concluded by talking about how they're considering what transport should look like as we move forward.

So, I conclude by thanking all the contributors, and, as it's PAPAC, the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, pointing out that all our recommendations were made after the various policies and strategies were already in place. Our interest, as always, is not so much in the rightness or wrongness of the policy, but in implementation, monitoring, evaluation and, if necessary, enforcement. Those are the areas we'll be seeking to keep an eye on in accordance with our remit. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The report is noted.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: UK Government budget

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 7 is the next item, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the UK Government's budget. To move the motion, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. These last few weeks have been a tale of two very different budgets, one of short-term policies combined with budget cuts and political gesturing, and the other offering tax cuts, economic growth and prosperity. While the Conservatives have been cutting taxes for businesses and workers across the United Kingdom, the Welsh Government continues to refuse to pass benefits on to the people of Wales, be it business rate support for businesses or more generous childcare support for families with small children. Thanks to the Chancellor's cut in national insurance by 2p, in addition to the 2p cut announced in the autumn statement, we will see over 1.2 million workers in Wales receiving an extra £642 a year. And the Chancellor has indicated there could be more to come when conditions allow.

With the economy beginning to turn a corner, these decisions have been taken in a fiscally responsible way, ensuring that hard-working families across the United Kingdom are supported and allowed to keep more of their own money, this being done while simultaneously reducing inflation. The UK Conservative Government continues to help families also. Children are a blessing, we all know that, but the responsibility of raising them can come at a significant financial cost, especially as the cost of childcare continues to rise. I therefore welcome the action that the UK Conservative Government has taken in extending childcare support in England, as well as addressing the unfair barriers that families face in receiving child benefit. This is in stark contrast to the Welsh Government, who, sadly, still refuse to extend similar childcare support for families with young children, despite receiving consequentials to do so.

Sadly, in Wales, we see a Government out of touch with its people, where more politicians in this place, constitutional reform, expensive and economically damaging default 20 mph limits, universal basic income and other pet projects take centre stage in Labour's priorities, propped up by the Plaid benches. This disconnect is echoed by the out-of-touch approach to our rural communities that we've seen manifest over recent weeks. It is clear which party is on the side of working families here in Wales, and it certainly isn't Labour or Plaid.

I've argued in this Chamber that the economy should be a priority, as a thriving economy creates jobs, growth, better pay, better living standards and, through increased tax take, better public services. Small businesses are key to the success of the economy, especially here in Wales, and I'm glad that the UK Conservative Government has taken action to support businesses. The budget saw thousands of businesses lifted out of paying value added tax, by moving the tax threshold, benefiting many Welsh businesses. In England, we have also seen businesses in the hospitality, retail and leisure sector receive a 75 per cent cut to their business rates, helping a sector that continues to struggle with the rising cost of doing business.

But Welsh Labour have failed to provide the same support for business in Wales, despite once again receiving the consequentials to do so. The effects of their disconnect with business is profound in my border constituency, as businesses are crying out for support as they compete with English businesses just a few miles across the border, who are supported from a Government that cares about small businesses. We have to welcome the additional £168 million-worth of Barnett consequential funding for Wales, and it is now down to the Labour Government to spend this on the priorities of the people of Wales: more doctors, nurses, teachers and learning, and business support.

Now, we will hear—and we've already heard—from the Minister, saying that this money has already been accounted for, and already factored into their budget. Now, while the recent £25 million announcement was known, as it was announced before the budget, the rest of the £168 million, I'm told confidently by UK Government, comes as a direct consequence of the Chancellor's announcement of £2.5 billion for health last Tuesday. So, I'm at a loss to know how the Welsh Government would have accounted for something that no-one knew about ahead of the Chancellor's announcing it. [Interruption.] The clue is in the title: being a 'consequential' meaning it flows as a consequence of a particular decision. So, this additional money should definitely not be used to prop up Welsh Government's pet projects.

I also welcome the news that the UK Conservative Government has purchased the Wylfa site, which will not only secure the opportunity to produce nuclear power in Wales, but will also provide opportunities for highly skilled and well-paid jobs across north Wales; something the Welsh Government has consistently failed to do, ignoring north Wales, as their focus is usually based in the south around their safer seats.

As well as this, the Conservative Government has provided a range of investment supporting communities across Wales, including, as we've heard, £20 million-worth of funding for Rhyl as part of the long-term plans for towns; £10 million funding for Venue Cymru in Llandudno; £5 million of funding for cultural facilities in Newport; £5 million of funding to launch the agri-food launchpad, in partnership with the Welsh Government and Ceredigion council; and £1.6 million-worth of funding towards the redevelopment of Theatr Clwyd in Mold.

It is clear that the Conservatives have a long-term plan for the whole of the United Kingdom, while Labour still continue to flip-flop and have no clear strategy as to how to handle the economy. And if, as Keir Starmer first said before he changed his mind, Wales is Labour's blueprint for success, then the United Kingdom and Wales are in for a shock if Labour win the next election. Diolch, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Llywydd, and I would like to move amendment 1 in the name of Heledd.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Given the Easter season will soon be upon us, I have to commend the Tories for the timeliness of today's debate, because the UK Government's spring budget is about as hollow and structurally sound as a warm Easter egg. After 14 years of brutal austerity, voters across Wales and the rest of the UK are crying out for meaningful change. Instead, they've got an intellectually bankrupt Government regurgitating the same stale ideas.

Let's start with the headline boast on their tax-cutting credentials, which collapses at the first hint of political analysis. As is reflected in our amendment, the reality is that, under this Government, taxes have risen to their highest level as a proportion of GDP since 1948, so when it comes to their oft-repeated claim of easing the so-called tax burden on the working population, all they have done is tinker around the edges while continuing to pile on the pressure elsewhere. And in typical Tory style, the cuts that have been announced to national insurance contributions benefit the already well-off at the expense of low-income families and pensioners.

The failure to uprate income tax thresholds in line with inflation means that anyone earning below £26,000 will be cumulatively worse off as a result of the budget. Since wages in Wales are on average lower than the UK-wide average, the financial pinch will be disproportionately felt here. Indeed, the UK Government will hold the distinction of being the first since the second world war to oversee a fall in household disposable income and living standards—record breaking for all the wrong reasons. That will be the lamentable legacy of this Tory Government.

The only way that the Chancellor has been able to afford these tax cuts has been by imposing yet another painful bout of austerity. This is illustrated by the fact that day-to-day spending for unprotected UK Government departments is set to fall by 13 per cent over the next five years. Even this raid on public services will barely cover the overall shortfall in revenues as the remaining fiscal headroom for the next budget is well below the recent average of £26 billion. This leaves little cover for unexpected events, such as another run on the pound caused by another Tory economic mismanagement.

Little wonder that the Resolution Foundation has generously described this budget as a work of fiscal fiction, while the Institute for Fiscal Studies has rightly called out the Chancellor's plan for growth as lacking in credibility. You only have to look at how bad it's gone down in the polls and with most economists to realise how out of touch this UK Government truly is. And the fact that they've earmarked £240 million for Canary Wharf while continuing to deny Wales its fair share of HS2 funding underlines how little regard they have for our interests here in Wales. All of which naturally raises the question: 'Why is the UK Labour Party apparently so keen to sing from the same discredited hymn book as the Tories?'

At a time when people are yearning for proper investment in public services, all we are being promised by Keir Starmer's Government in waiting is a rehashed version of austerity and a refusal to provide Wales with a fair funding deal. And for their disapproving noises about the spring budget, it's worth emphasising that the Labour Party does not actually oppose a single measure. We literally cannot afford to wait in silence for the Westminster establishment to shake off this chronic apathy and neglect when it comes to Wales, and we must be uncompromising in our demands for fairness for our nation. It is for this reason that I call on Members to support our amendment. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call on the Minister for finance to formally move amendment 2.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. Formally.