Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 25 October 2023

328 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary session. The first item will be questions to the Minister for Climate Change. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister and to be asked by Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

1. How is the Welsh Government supporting public transport in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ60156

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Our national transport delivery plan sets out a range of projects and programmes that will help deliver our vision of better, more reliable and attractive public transport services across south-west Wales.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Deputy Minister, but what on earth is happening with St Clears railway station? I recently visited the site with local MP, Simon Hart, officials from Carmarthenshire County Council and two local county councillors, because we seem to be no further forward with the reopening of this station. In written replies to me, the decision to reopen the railway station now seems conditional on the location of the new hospital in west Wales, when this was never part of the business case in the first instance, which saw the UK Government, the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales, Network Rail and the local community agree together that St Clears needed its railway station. There is talk that, while inflation has played its part, there was a staggering underestimation of the costs by the Welsh Government. So, to reiterate my opening question, Deputy Minister, what on earth is going on with St Clears railway station?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, the challenge is that the business case assumed that it would cost £6 million to reopen St Clears station. That cost has now doubled, but the contribution from the DfT has not. Their contribution remains at £4.5 million. Now, this is rail infrastructure; rail infrastructure is not devolved. Now, there’s an assumption under this scheme that the Welsh Government will match fund, and we were willing to match fund at the lower cost. We simply do not have the funds to match fund at the higher cost. So, that is the truth of the situation and we recognise the need for a station at St Clears and fully support it and want it to happen. I think the reality and the practicalities we face and the choices we have here are that we know there is a plan for a large hospital nearby, public transport connectivity to that is critical and I think we need to be looking at those two developments in tandem. But if the UK Government wants to take its responsibilities for rail infrastructure seriously and provide further funding, we’d be very grateful to work with them.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Deputy Minister, last week, I attended a meeting with the Member for Ceredigion in Llandysul to discuss the future of Fflecsi Bwcabus, which provides a service in parts of Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire. The room was full to overflowing, with nearly 100 people in attendance, and what became clear to us on that evening was the very real evidence that scrapping this service is going to have a harmful effect on the lives of real people. These weren't e-mails, but lived evidence of how people suffering from epilepsy can't attend clinics; people who are reliant on physiotherapy on a weekly basis unable to attend their clinics and hospitals, not being able to do the weekly shop; some talking about having to cease employment because they wouldn't be able get to that place of employment. So, within four weeks, or with just four weeks' notice, you decided to end that service. Talk about a cliff edge for people who have to plan their personal futures. Now, when I raised this issue around a month ago, you said that you would work with community transport and local authorities to try and save elements of the Fflecsi Bwcabus. Can I ask for an update on that and can I ask you to respond to the request that I and the Member for Ceredigion have made of you, namely an urgent meeting between us to plan the future of Bwcabus in these areas? Could I ask you for a meeting, please?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch. Of course I'd be very happy to meet you and the other Member to discuss this. There is no easy answer to it, though, unfortunately. I think it's unfair to say that we gave short notice to end the service. The funding for the programme was destined to end when the European funding came to an end. This was a European-funded project. Now, Wales voted for Brexit; there are consequences to that. We were told by the UK Government we would have replacement funding. That hasn't happened. In fact, we are £1 billion down on where we were before we left the EU and its programmes, and that has consequences for our ability to fund public services.

Now, I value the Bwcabus service, and it's been the inspiration for the Fflecsi service that we're now trialling in other parts of Wales, so I need no convincing of the value of the model. I don't think passenger numbers were very strong. It's interesting that 100 people turned up at a meeting; it would be interesting to know how many of those were regular users of it. People often don't want to lose a service, but the very same people often don't support the service. So I think a thing we all need to reflect on as we look at the future of buses is how can we encourage more people to use those services. We are funding very significantly the TrawsCymru service through Ceredigion, which is an excellent service, with modern electric buses, with low fares, and it is very popular. So, we are putting a lot of investment into bus services in rural Wales. Very sadly, because of the funding situation we face in the short term, we were not able to replace the EU funding that has been taken away, and that, I'm afraid, is a fact that there is no easy answer to.

There are, of course, options, and the local authority has a legal duty to provide socially necessary bus services, and they have the option to find funding of their own, if it is as locally valued as the Member says. But they face a similar budgetary situation to what we do. So, it's not that we don't value the service; we simply don't have the money to fund all the things that we do value. But we are going to do our best with TfW and community transport to see what can be done where we have some options, but I'm not going to pretend other than this is a sub-optimal situation, which is deeply regrettable. But I'd be happy to discuss it further with the Member and his colleagues.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

What steps is the Minister taking to address any issues caused by the blanket 20 mph speed limit?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, as the Member knows, it is not a blanket speed limit, and she does a disservice to herself and the code of ethics that we all sign up to in this Chamber to be truthful and accurate—[Interruption.] It is a default speed limit, as she knows. It is the most significant change to road safety—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can I just clarify for the Record that the original question did call it a 'default blanket 20 mph speed limit', but it wasn't what you read out. So, if you can read out the question that you actually tabled, it would be useful for the Minister.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

2. What steps is the Minister taking to address any issues caused by the default blanket 20 mph speed limit? OQ60167

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, it is a default speed limit, it is not a blanket speed limit, and that's an important distinction, because that is designed to mislead, and it's caused an awful lot of confusion with people that the Conservatives here need to take some responsibility for. It is the most significant change to improve road safety in Wales for decades, and we will continue to work with our partners to monitor implementation.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Deputy Minister, we've all seen the widespread disapproval of your new blanket 20 mph speed limit, from bus companies to emergency services, and, of course, the 0.5 million people that have signed the petition, and more. This week, we've even seen a magistrate resign over the issue. Deputy Minister, this policy is clearly deeply unpopular with the people of Wales, and, as elected politicians, we're here to serve the people, not to dictate and impose damaging policies on their lives. Deputy Minister, the issues of this ill-thought-out policy just keep stacking up, and there's no end in sight. Just when will you accept that this many people can't be wrong and commit to reversing this failed and damaging policy?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, it is not ill thought out; it has been carefully thought out and worked on for over four and a half years. This has been rolled out in many other places—in London, in Edinburgh, in Spain. Conservative-led Cornwall Council want to roll this out in their area; they certainly don't think it's ill thought out nor that they are dictating or imposing. The party opposite are deliberately using highly charged, prejudicial language, not based on facts, to try and create a social reaction to distract from the fact that they are a party bankrupt of ideas and are morally empty as well. We know what we are doing is working in reducing speeds. Speeds are down, as they are everywhere else it's been brought in. And with speeds coming down, we can expect to see casualties coming down—[Interruption.]—for noise pollution to be reduced, for the benefits that have been shown elsewhere. Now, Andrew R.T. Davies shouts from a sedentary position. The example of Belfast, which he often quotes—. I'm not sure if he's looked at the study. I doubt it very much; he's simply looked at the headline. Because the study does not say what he thinks it says. It in fact supports the approach we are taking, because it calls for an area-wide approach, which is supported by behaviour change and normalisation. So, he should read the report properly and correct—[Interruption.] Well, if he has read it, then he's either misunderstood it, or he's misrepresenting it.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

From talking to people, 90 per cent of people support 90 per cent of 20 mph roads. But I have had someone tell me, 'I am an experienced driver and I drive to road conditions. I do not need any speed limit.' Another, 'Deaths and serious injury are a price worth paying to travel at 30 mph.' Most ludicrous, that, '30 mph is suitable for roads of less than 30 metres.' There are, unfortunately, anomalies. Can I suggest to the Minister that A roads' and B roads' speed limits are left to the discretion of councils, with no guidance from the Welsh Government?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I can confirm that A roads and B roads are at the discretion of local councils, and that's made very clear in the guidance. And, in fact, I met with local authority leaders from across Wales yesterday to discuss the experience they've had in implementing it. And what was telling is that a large number of leaders said that they have had very little correspondence in recent weeks on this, that people are adapting to it, they're getting used to it.

We do think there are some examples, where, with the benefit of hindsight and experience, the wrong decisions have been made, and I've encouraged local authorities to think about how they can use their powers of discretion to make exceptions. They will be exceptions not the rule. So, it'll be, I think, a tidying-up exercise, but we had a very positive and constructive meeting with them yesterday.

We're going to do some more work to understand whether the guidance itself does need to change, or whether or not their confidence levels of how they apply the guidance need to be helped, working with other authorities—his own, for example, I think, has got the largest number of exceptions in Wales. So, obviously, there is an exceptions process; it's not a blanket, because if it was, how could Swansea issue so many exceptions? But there is an unevenness of approach across Wales, and we're working very closely with them to try and work that through. But the fact stands: average speeds are down. People are voting with their feet and are respecting the new speed limit.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, according to your colleagues, your Government is in a dire financial position, with important budgets like education, economy and finance being slashed as a result. Although that poverty-stricken image your Government portrays doesn't simply add up for me when you look at the eye-watering amounts of cash you've been splashing on vanity projects. Take the £33 million on 20 mph speed limits, or the £120 million being used to expand this place, or the £4.25 million spent buying farms for friends. And then, only days ago, we hear that the Government has managed to pluck £125 million from its magic money tree to give to Transport for Wales, which we all know is owned by the Welsh Labour Government. So, some might say this is an incredibly surprising move for a Government desperately trying to tighten up the purse strings. So, Deputy Minister, just what exactly is this money going to be spent on? And did Transport for Wales put forward a business case, because, quite frankly, I am worried that TfW is turning into the new Cardiff Airport, which has been swallowing up millions of pounds of taxpayers' cash without yielding any positive results so far?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, it's curious, isn't it, that you regard a project to save lives as a vanity project. I don't regard it as a vanity project to reduce the speed limit and save people's lives. And the cost of introducing that will be paid back three times over in the first year from reduced casualties and burden on the NHS. So, I completely reject the characterisation the Member has of that policy.

In terms of the additional money we've made available for TfW, that is not a reflection of any poor decisions or mismanagement by TfW or by the Welsh Government. That's simply a reflection of the fact that the budget that was set at the time of franchising assumed a very dramatic increase in passenger numbers. That has not been possible to do because we've had the pandemic, and the pandemic has reduced patronage, and that has created a financial gap that needed to be filled. And if we didn't fill that, much of the rail network would shut down. Now, not content with wanting to shut down our airport, she seems content with wanting to shut down our rail network. And I do find the contradictory position the Member states—. Last week, she was telling people that she wanted extra money spent on a new train station at Caerleon. This week, she tells us the money spent on rail is a waste of money.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Deputy Minister, firstly, please don't ever misconstrue my words; I know exactly what I've said in this place, and I've always said Cardiff Airport should be sold, it should be making a profit, and it should be advancing. I would love to see more stations across Wales, but, equally, I'm under the impression, and I take on board—and I've said this publicly and privately—that if the health service is failing, if education is failing, I'm more than happy for that money to be spent there, but I cannot fathom where this £125 million is going. But let me go to my question, Presiding Officer.

Deputy Minister, it's been just over a month now since your 20 mph speed limit project came into force. Despite what you and your colleagues are repeatedly saying again and again and again, it's abundantly clear that the public are still not on board with it, no matter how you paint this picture to me. Before 20 mph speed limits were introduced, a poll showed 46 per cent supported the measure, 34 per cent opposed it. Yet, last week a new poll revealed the tide has turned with people now starting to realise just how disastrous your scheme actually is. This new poll showed that nearly 60 per cent of people opposed your £33 million project, with just 29 per cent in favour. You said, Deputy Minister, and I quote:

'we're pretty confident that, as people get used to it, support will rise.'

Well, I hate to be the one to bring you back down to this planet, Deputy Minister, but support isn't rising, because the people of Wales don't want your 20 mph scheme. Deputy Minister, do you now admit you've made a mistake and got this scheme wrong?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I'm afraid the Conservative spokeswoman on transport doesn't understand how transport works, and that is a real problem for scrutiny and informed criticism in this debate. She says she doesn't want to close the airport, she simply wants to sell it and for it to make a profit. There is hardly an airport in the world that makes a profit. They are not a profit-making entity, and we rescued it from collapse in the private sector, because we thought Wales needs an airport. [Interruption.] Janet Finch-Saunders says it's a waste of taxpayers' money to save an airport. Yet, Conservative mayor Ben Houchen, who is lauded by her and her colleagues, has done exactly the same in the north-east. Airports need support, particularly after COVID when passengers numbers collapsed. So, the idea—. There's nobody who wants to buy a loss-making airport.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

But you're propping it up though.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

We support it because we think it's an important piece of economic and transport infrastructure, and that's why we do it. So, if she simply says, 'Sell it', well, that would mean it would close. So, that's the consequence of her approach and she needs to own that.

In terms of the 20 mph speed limit, it's been just over a month now since it was brought in, and it will take time for people to get used to it and for people to adapt. That was the experience in Spain, that was the experience in London, that was the experience in Edinburgh, and that is the experience we're having. Average speeds are down. Most people are complying. They're not sticking to 20 mph, but the number of people driving over 30 mph has dramatically fallen, and that brings the big road safety gains and we are confident this is the right thing to do.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Wow, Deputy Minister, talk about being delusional today. Deputy Minister, you've repeatedly claimed that introducing 20 mph will add just one minute on to a journey time. Yet, despite your claims, a major bus operator has said that your scheme is, in fact, adding 12 minutes each way on journeys between Caernarfon, Bangor and Llandudno. As a result, Arriva is currently undertaking a large review of the network, with cuts and alterations on the cards, because 20 mph limits are having a big impact on punctuality. And, of course, it's not just public transport that is being affected by the 20 mph speed limits, it's affecting people's journey times, damaging people's livelihoods, slowing down emergency services and delivering a whopping £9 billion blow to the economy. Instead of supporting buses, supporting hard-working residents, supporting businesses, supporting our economy, you are actively choosing to punish them with this 20 mph scheme, and I'm not alone in this verdict. Just take a look at the record-breaking petition, which my colleague Laura Anne Jones did mention, calling for the 20 mph scheme to be scrapped, which has gained more than 460,000 signatures, and the countless protests that have been taking place all around the country. So, Deputy Minister, I accept what you've said that it's just the first month, but when is the next review going to take place? At what point are you going to realise and say, 'You know what, this is the time we need to look back, take stock and do a u-turn on the decision'? And also, aside from that, will you listen to the Welsh public, and actually go ahead and scrap this scheme, before it does any more unnecessary damage? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Llywydd, I'm bound to observe that if I spoke to Natasha Asghar the way she speaks to me she would be the first person to complain. I think there are courtesies in this Chamber we should observe. I know she does these performances for social media, but this really isn't the best way to scrutinise, and I'd ask her to reflect on her behaviour.

On the impact on bus routes, we've been asking the bus companies for data that shows the impact that lower speeds has had on their performance. We've had very little, and we are keen to work with them to understand that. If there are particular corridors the bus routes rely on where the speed is an issue, then, of course, local authorities have the option to look at exemption criteria. They also have the ability to look at bus priority measures, which we are keen to support them on, and we are funding a large number of those this financial year to allow buses to deal with the congestion and travel at a faster pace. I think the truth is that a large number of bus companies were struggling with punctuality in the first place because of bus driver shortages, and they’ve taken the opportunity of both the change in bus funding and the 20 mph to recalibrate their timetables to create more resilient services that are reliable, because they can be confident they can staff them. There is some evidence to show that 20 mph in some areas is impacting journey times, but the picture is incomplete and we’re committed to work with the bus industry to understand it better.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

For clarification, there was nothing out of order in Natasha Asghar's contribution there that I heard. If I didn't hear anything in particular that I should have noted, then I'm sure the Deputy Minister will contact me after this session.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Minister will be aware that Wrexham County Council has voted twice against their draft local development plan, which was intended to chart the course of development in the region, including the allocation of space for thousands of new homes. This rejection has raised concerns regarding the validity of the data on which the plan was based, notably the lack of up-to-date information concerning projected population growth and other critical factors that should inform planning for housing. The implications of this decision go beyond the immediate, affecting the future viability and suitability of housing solutions for generations to come. How can you plan for future housing developments if you don’t know where they’re needed, how many are required and who they’re being built for? So, in light of Wrexham County Council’s rejection of the LDP, partly due to outdated data, can the Minister provide information on what steps the Government is taking to ensure that local authorities have access to the most accurate and up-to-date data when formulating their development plans to ensure housing is fit for future generations?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Mabon ap Gwynfor. I’m afraid the premise on which you’ve based your question is a little flawed. The LDP process is a process in which a plan, which is the council’s own plan, is subject to public inquiry, has an inspector appointed, goes through all of the stages; the council’s own officers and the inspector appointed to scrutinise the plan have all recommended acceptance to the council. The council has not accepted its own plan—I can’t emphasise enough that it’s its own plan that it hasn’t accepted—and it’s now subject to judicial review proceedings. So, I’m constrained as to what else I can say because of those judicial review proceedings. My understanding, though, is that the council isn’t able to put up a proper defence to those and it remains to be seen what will happen. So, I’m afraid I don’t really accept the basis of the question, Mabon. I’m more than happy to have a discussion with you as I already have had with other members of your group about exactly what’s happening, but I don’t think this is something that we can discuss in any detail in Plenary.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that response, and I understand that you are restricted with what you can say in this regard. However, when you say that the council has rejected its own plans, it is a democratic body and the democratically elected members have refused the draft proposal. Wrexham County Council evidently voted against the local development plan, in part because they didn’t believe it would serve the needs of local communities. Considering the LDP that returned from inspectors only included a 9 per cent affordable housing component, rejection shouldn’t have come as a surprise. What’s apparent to many—including campaigners, local councillors and myself—is that the minimal commitment to affordable housing in the plan effectively gives free rein to developers to build unaffordable housing that only really benefits them, not the local communities. Even in this case, it’s possible that Welsh Government could force the plan on the local council and the population against the wishes of residents in the area. Local development plans must be used as a tool to serve communities, not to give carte blanche to large developers. Plans must prioritise the delivery of enough truly affordable housing to serve the needs of current and future communities. So, does the Minister agree with that statement?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

No, I’m afraid I don’t agree with that statement at all. The best way to stop speculative development in an area is to have adopted a proper plan. The lack of the plan is what causes the speculative development, because a council has no plan against which to test its planning applications, and that's self-evident. As I said, I'm not able to discuss the ins and outs of the situation in Wrexham because of the legal situation there, but I cannot emphasise enough that this is a plan that was taken through by the council through all of its systems, it went through the inspection and arrived at the final stage before it was voted against. This is not anything to do with democracy, this is entirely to do with a misunderstanding, I'm afraid, by the leadership of that council as to the actions they've taken and the consequences for their planning system, which are that they have no plan against which to measure any planning application.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

3. What assessment has the Minister made of the accessibility of renewable energy for businesses? OQ60163

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Our renewable energy targets commit us to scaling up the deployment of renewable energy to support net zero, our communities and businesses in Wales. We are supporting strategic planning in enabling infrastructure to bring that energy to where it is needed and supporting businesses themselves to invest in renewable energy technologies.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister. Minister, recent global events have rightly brought energy security to the top of the agenda. The Welsh Government's net-zero plan has steered the focus towards renewable energy production, and I welcome the steps taken to bolster our capability. However, as you'll know from my recent letter to you about a solar farm and a private wire scheme in my constituency, one that plans to supply electricity to major local businesses, these sorts of local projects that we need to see develop are coming up against real barriers in gaining an export connection agreement to the grid.

The local scheme in my area have been told that a connection agreement won't be available until 2029. Indeed, I've heard that some may have to wait as long as 10 years or more. Clearly, then, these blockages are at total odds with the Government's expectation on carbon reduction. Minister, how do you envisage getting around this impasse, and will you liaise with National Grid to find ways to ensure that local renewable projects can advance?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Peter. We do a lot of work with National Grid, and I'm delighted that, after many, many years of resisting the idea of having a holistic network design, the Conservative Government has finally, and at the last moment, realised that a planned grid is something that's necessary, and not one that simply responds to requests to connect, which is what we've had hitherto. We published the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report in July of this year, and that report was very clear that we need this new infrastructure and that we need to rewire the country to the twenty-first century, and the infrastructure also needs to be well designed and located sensitively.

We're using the evidence to inform regional and national electricity network plans and delivery programmes, and I'm very hopeful, though it's not yet confirmed, that we'll be able to be a demonstrator for that approach for the UK. I had a very good meeting with Ofgem very recently about the possibility of Wales doing that, and I really hope that that happens. In the meantime, what we clearly need is a lot more investment upfront by the grid in infrastructure so that we can get down these ridiculously long connection times. I have every sympathy with the Member about the length of time it takes to connect to the grid, but this is, I'm afraid, as a result of very serious underinvestment by the UK Government in this sort of infrastructure more generally.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

4. Will the Minister provide an update on progress to install fire-resistant cladding on buildings in Wales? OQ60135

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

In Wales we continue to progress our remediation programme. The programme is taking a whole-building approach to fire safety, not one that targets cladding in isolation.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Obviously, representing the region of South Wales Central, here in Cardiff Bay we most probably have the greatest density of buildings that are affected by the fire cladding issue. Can you give an indication of how many buildings on which the remediation work has begun that the Welsh Government is supporting? And what work is being undertaken to reach out to buildings and, in particular the leaseholders in those buildings who have yet to see any progress being made in reinstating the fire safety credit worthiness of those buildings?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, I can easily do that. Ten of the UK's largest residential housing developers have signed contracts with the Welsh Government committing them to undertake the fire safety works in Wales. Works have started or will have started on 28 of those buildings by the end of this year, with estimated start dates given for 36 buildings. One building has had its work completed, and preliminary works and investigations continue on those remaining. I've also previously announced the orphan building pilot scheme. That's for buildings where the developer has either ceased trading, is unknown, or the building was developed over 30 years ago. Work schedules are being developed ahead of remediation works, which will be funded by the Welsh Government. We've got 30 buildings identified in the first cohort of those buildings. And in the social sector, they've received funding to remediate all fire safety issues, including cladding on buildings over 11m in height. To date, we've spent £94 million to deliver works on over 100 buildings in the social sector. Then, lastly, I did meet with stakeholders in Celestia, which I know Andrew R.T. Davies has raised a number of times, very recently in the last couple of weeks. We had a very productive meeting and we're developing a number of things as a result of that meeting.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to scale up seagrass meadows? OQ60141

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The Welsh Government is committed to restoring and enhancing seagrass habitats, recognising their importance to biodiversity, carbon sequestration and flood prevention. Funding opportunities to scale up seagrass meadows have already been made available through the nature networks fund and the marine protected area management grant schemes.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. We know, don't we, Minister, that over 30 times more animals live within seagrass compared to adjacent sandy habitats. While seagrass occupies only 0.1 per cent of the sea floor, it is responsible for up to 18 per cent of the organic carbon buried in the ocean. As you also know, I believe too that we can make huge strides towards achieving net zero by embracing seagrass and blue carbon. The Wales seagrass network is a network of organisations and individuals with an interest and role in seagrass monitoring, the science, protection and restoration, or any statutory obligation in Wales. They are doing such tremendous innovative ways to grow seagrass and see it returned to piloted areas. It includes the Welsh Government; Natural Resources Wales; the Crown Estate; Swansea, Cardiff and Bangor universities; the two coastal special areas of conservation; the Wildlife Trusts; World Wildlife Fund Cymru; ports; and others. I'm going to drop a soundbite in here for Frankie Hobro of the Anglesey Sea Zoo, who works really hard on this seagrass restoration on a voluntary basis. So, currently, Project Seagrass chair the group, but they need increased and continued funding to keep this momentum going. So, will you commit? I know that finances are tight, but if we're serious about marine conservation and carbon zero, then we should be serious about providing financial support for the Welsh seagrass network, and indeed anybody else working to restore this vital, vital grass.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. Thank you, Janet. I absolutely do recognise that habitats have important benefits like enhancing biodiversity through increased feeding opportunities and nursery habitats, which are crucial to our response to both the climate and the nature emergency here in Wales. I recently had the real pleasure of visiting the seagrass meadow at Porthdinllaen with Project Seagrass, to see and assist in the collection of seagrass seeds. I met the most delightful set of young people there, who were collecting the seeds—1 million seagrass seeds to be planted around the coast of Wales. They asked a whole series of questions and were very enthused about the project. We're currently exploring options to identify the most appropriate mechanism to deliver the targeted scheme for marine habitat restoration, specifically for seagrass and salt marsh, and we're doing that in conjunction with Project Seagrass, who are absolutely pivotal to this, and I really value the critical work that they do, and that the volunteers that support them do, to help us across Wales.

The nature networks fund is live now, and I would encourage any interested organisation to consider this. The funding is available for both project delivery and capacity building, to support the development of a future pipeline of projects. We've also made additional opportunities available, as I already said, through the MPA management grant scheme, and will continue to do that in the future. NRW are currently undertaking a series of works to identify habitat suitability for a number of habitat types in the Welsh marine environment, including seagrass, to help us in our decision making for where to target seagrass restoration in Wales, and we're doing that in conjunction with Project Seagrass. We've also had a list of key recommendations from the World Wildlife Fund for seagrass, and my officials are meeting with them to discuss how to take prospects forward. So, I think we will have a really good tale to tell about seagrass restoration, Janet, and I look forward to going snorkelling with you to look at the seeds growing any time soon.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We all want to see the photos. [Laughter.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 6. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to increase the number of co-operative housing units? OQ60138

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We remain committed to supporting the development of co-operative and community-led housing in Wales and to enabling people to take more control of their housing. Building on historical support, we have increased funding through Cwmpas to £180,000 revenue funding for three years, so that's 2022-23 to 2024-25, into the future.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Minister. Co-operative housing is a very popular form of tenure across Europe and north America. John Lennon lived in the Dakota Building, which was a co-operative housing development. It is much less popular in Wales than the rest of Great Britain. I do not believe that we can ignore a form of tenure that is popular throughout the world when we have housing need. They all have Government support and, crucially, had Government support to start up. What new support is the Welsh Government going to give to co-operative housing? And will the Government support the New York model on the conversion of large, empty buildings into co-operative housing?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Mike. I share in your enthusiasm for co-operative housing. The Welsh Government has never moved away from our support for co-operative housing and community-led housing, and we've been providing funding to Cwmpas to support co-operative housing ever since 2012. And in 2019, we changed our approach to enable Cwmpas to deliver a broader programme of work, supporting all types of community-led housing, and that allows for local communities to decide on the best form of community-led housing for their area, and that could easily include conversion of a large building. Cwmpas’s Communities Creating Homes programme, since the 2019 change, has been jointly funded by the Welsh Government and the Nationwide Foundation, and it offers support for all community-led housing, with a focus on embedding co-operative principles. More recently, I'm really encouraged by the funding application from Gŵyr Community Land Trust to the land and buildings development fund, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the project develops. The project, I hope, will demonstrate proof of concept for use of the land and buildings development fund as capital funding for a community-led project, and therefore provide a direct funding route for community-led housing, in addition to all the existing routes through our social housing grant with registered social landlord partners. And that's really close by your constituency, Mike, in the constituency of our colleague Rebecca Evans, and I'm sure they'd welcome a visit by you.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

We all know the real issue surrounding the housing supply in Wales—it's mainly the lack of it. So, it's a shame that councils in South Wales West are continuing to fail to meet housing targets consistently. In the January to March quarter of this year, under Swansea council's watch, just 57 new dwellings were completed. But it gets worse. In Bridgend, it was 23, and in Neath Porth Talbot, only 15. How can Welsh Government and local councils possibly be trusted to support social and co-operative housing when they can't even get the basics right? The law of supply and demand applies equally to housing. We need constructive solutions to reform the planning system and build the beautiful low-carbon homes of the future. Current red tape and complex bureaucracy means the deck is stacked in favour of the big players, shutting out smaller, local companies who should have a huge part to play in the solution. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government working to improve its record on housing, work with councils to reform the system, and get on with actually building the houses for the future generations will need?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, Llywydd, once again I regret the fact that the Tories only ever want to run down people who are doing their very best in very difficult circumstances, caused almost entirely by the Conservative Party at the UK level, having made it near impossible to get both financing and funding for homes anywhere. The Westminster Government could also assist us by helping us get our vacant land tax through, which they've consistently blocked, which would help us unlock the land that is essential for this kind of community housing to be built. The Conservative Member perhaps hasn't been in the party long enough to remember that it was his Government that prevented councils from building houses for nearly 45 years, and has only very recently, actually, released the caps on the housing revenue account in local authorities that would allow them to build the houses in the first place. I think our councils are doing a splendid job, alongside our registered social landlords and, indeed, the co-operative and community sector, to get house building going, and I need no lessons off him on how to build low-carbon, decent homes and plan for them accordingly.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

7. How will the Welsh Government further promote the building of social housing? OQ60150

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We remain committed to delivering our 20,000 social homes for rent this Government term, underpinned by record levels of funding—almost £1.2 billion over the first four years of this Senedd term. In Flintshire, £12.6 million was spent in 2022-23 and an allocation of £13.3 million for 2023-24 is providing those much-needed homes.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Can I thank the Minister for her answer and the commitment towards promoting social housing? The area I grew up in was mainly council housing, and, if I look back now, I understand the difference good quality, secure and affordable housing made to the life choices and life chances of residents. Minister, I was pleased to see yesterday the news that we are once again improving housing standards, and I congratulate you on this bold decision. We have to be ambitious about the building of more social housing; too many people are on waiting lists in inappropriate, insecure housing. We need to give those families the security that social housing offers. Minister, the planning system can be inconsistent when it comes to social housing applications. What can you do to ensure that social housing applications are not treated harshly and refused for reasons that have no real planning merit?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We've been very clear of the positive impact that good quality, affordable homes that will meet the needs of individuals now and in the future can have. We know that investing in social housing reduces poverty, improves health and helps drive economic growth—that's why we are seeking to increase the provision by 20,000, and we've set out record levels of funding to achieve this, as I've just already said, allocating £1.2 billion over the first four years of this Senedd term. We also recognise the importance of providing social homes through the planning system, and our national planning policy, 'Planning Policy Wales', is very clear about the Welsh Government's policies. The need for social housing is clearly articulated in 'Future Wales', our national plan. We expect all local authorities to prepare a local development plan that includes policies on the delivery of social housing, and we require planning decisions to be taken in line with those plans. A community's need for social housing is one of the most important considerations of the LDP. We continue to support and challenge local authorities for the preparation of their LDP, and we continue to ensure that social housing issues are adequately addressed therein.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, not only do we have to encourage the building of social housing as a matter of some urgency, but we also have to ensure that the housing provided is fit for the future. Minister, whilst I note the introduction of the new Welsh housing quality standard, I question whether it goes far enough. What consideration have you given to ensuring that all future housing is built to passive house standards in order to ensure low or no energy bills, as well as ensuring that every home is readily adaptable to meet future mobility needs for tenants?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you. We already insist that all social housing is built to low-carbon standards. There are three different standards, passive house is one of them, but low-carbon footprints for all of the standards that we accept for new build. We've also done that in the private sector by changing building regulations. Although that's not the subject of this, we do do it across all tenures. I absolutely agree with the Member that houses should be built that are fit for the future, and the Welsh Government is entirely committed to doing both that for the new build, and, indeed, as you heard only yesterday in my statement, bringing existing housing up to the same standard.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the situation at Ffos-y-frân mine in Merthyr? OQ60148

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. Following service of an enforcement notice on the site operator by Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, the company has provided a unilateral undertaking to the council that it will stop operations at the site by 30 November.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. For over a year now, the operators at Ffos-y-frân coal mine have been extracting coal illegally, against the decision of the local authority and in direct contravention of planning laws. I've raised in this Chamber before that because of how little money—around £15 million—has been set aside by the mining company to restore the land, we are facing the very real prospect of there being a shortfall of over £100 million when it comes to cleaning up that site when they finally leave. Now, I realise that there's an ongoing legal case, but I'd like the Government, please, to commit to a swift public inquiry after that case to look into how the mining company was allowed to set so little money aside for restoration. The fact that so little money is set aside has fostered the likelihood that the site could be abandoned, with the costs for restoring it being left to the public purse. So, could you give a guarantee, please, to the people of Merthyr Tydfil that the original restoration plan that was promised to them will be completed, instead of a cutback version that will only make the site safe and ensure it doesn't fill with water, because our Valleys really do deserve better than that? And would you commit, Minister, to a swift public inquiry into how this situation was ever allowed to develop?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I'm afraid, Delyth, I'm really constrained as to what I can and can't say, I'm afraid, still, because despite the unilateral undertaking I mentioned, there is still a live appeal against the enforcement notice, and the Welsh Ministers have a duty to hear that appeal. So, I'm currently giving some consideration to that. I can say that we are supporting the council to work together with NRW and the Coal Authority, to consider the contingency arrangements that are in place and to consider what would happen if the mine were to be abandoned. Restoration, however, remains the responsibility of the mine operator, who's still in place, and I'm very sorry, but I'm very constrained as to what else I can say.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

9. What progress is being made to restore and sell the more than 22,000 long-term empty homes in Wales to alleviate the housing crisis? OQ60151

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We are providing a range of measures and funding packages to reduce the number of long-term empty homes in Wales, and in doing so, we are increasing the supply of homes across all tenures.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Weinidog. I was very pleased to read, as you know, the homeless White Paper, but whilst that is being slowly implemented, people are still, as you well know, struggling to find accommodation, and in the worst cases, dying on the streets. Cardiff alone has seen an increase of 120 per cent in rough-sleeping. It's such a shame, therefore, that in Cardiff alone, there are 3,288 empty homes, according to council tax data from this year, with 1,897 of those being exempt completely from council tax. Will the Minister investigate reusing these old properties for housing, as a green alternative to building new ones? Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, yes, absolutely. We agree that empty homes are a blight and can be a nuisance in communities. They attract anti-social behaviour, pose environmental health problems, and contribute to a general decline in the neighbourhoods. But, as you rightly say, Rhys, they are a wasted resource, and that's particularly frustrating, given the current housing supply. We have given local authorities powers to charge council tax premiums of up to 300 per cent on long-term empty dwellings, as well as on second homes, and we've put £50 million investment over three years to bring 2,000 long-term empty properties back into use, to accelerate our work to bring empty properties back into use and complement our existing schemes.

That does include nearly £43 million of recyclable funding that we've given local authorities to provide interest-free property loans for landlords and home owners for home improvements or to renovate empty properties and bring them back into use. And it also includes turning commercial properties—empty commercial properties—into houses or flats, with landlords able to increase loans of up to £35,000 per unit or £250,000 per application. The scheme's being used to bring back around 1,800 units into use from empty properties across Wales, and supported improvements to a further 1,600 homes that were in danger of becoming empty, because they were in such poor condition. So, a total of 3,400 units have been brought back into use so far under the scheme. We've also got 330 town-centre residential units being brought back into use—so, those are the ones above the shops that are often empty—and we're bringing those back into use through our Transforming Towns loan scheme. I was able to go to Newport very recently and have a look at the really excellent scheme around Newport market there that's brought some of those houses back into use.

My only remark on the numbers that you quoted is that it's quite difficult to differentiate houses for sale from houses that are long-term empty from those numbers. So, some of the council tax exemptions, for example, will be because the house is on the market. So, we are looking to see what we can do to better improve the data on what is actually a long-term empty home—or an abandoned home, especially—or one that's actually on the market for sale and might have been on the market for some time.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 10, finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

10. Will the Minister consider new and alternative proposals in line with the roads review criteria, following the decision to halt progress on the original Llanharan bypass project? OQ60137

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Yes, I've awarded £100,000 of the local transport fund to Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council to revisit the business case for the Llanharan bypass, in line with our response to the roads review recommendations, and I will consider the outcome of this work.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I'm delighted to hear that. Can I thank the Minister and his officials and others who joined me, Andrew Morgan, the leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf, earlier this year in light of the original decision to halt the roads review and the impact on the original Llanharan bypass, and to look at alternative ways forward? And those alternative ways forward could include bus priority measures, could include enhancement of the existing proposals around active travel, could well include, in negotiation with local partners on the ground, enhancement not just of park-and-ride facilities at the train station, but cycle-and-ride facilities as well. But we do need an egress and access point to that development in Llanilid in order to actually recognise its potential, realise its potential as a significant infrastructure development. It isn't only housing; there is a new school there, and other things that are dependent on this. So, I'd welcome another opportunity, along with Andrew Morgan and local councillors, to discuss this, and see if we can put something that does fit the roads review criteria, does reduce demand, congestion and air pollution, but provides a properly coherent way to devise proper travel options for everybody in those communities.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, and the Member makes a good case to scotch the lie that we have banned new roads, because that clearly isn't the policy or the case from our new road-building tests. And in the case of the scheme in his constituency, we are working with the local authorities—and he's mentioned we had a very constructive meeting—and then there's now a challenge for us all to look for more creative ways of dealing with congestion and transport problems without the default approach we've had so many times in the past, simply to build a large road, which then quickly refills with traffic and adds to our carbon emissions. So, there is now an opportunity for Transport for Wales to work creatively with the local authority and the regional teams to look at the range of options of different modes of bus, active travel, car sharing, as well as providing an access road, as the Member mentioned. And I'd be very keen to continue a conversation with him to help us to find a way through this challenge.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister for Climate Change.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next set of questions will be to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. The first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

1. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the £75 million cut to his department’s budget on the Government’s educational and Welsh-language targets? OQ60152

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I have protected front-line services in schools, colleges and universities, and revenue reductions have been identified through a review of demand-led budgets and uncommitted funding across my portfolio. To reduce the impact on services, I have made decisions to reduce spending by reprioritising or deferring activity, rather than cutting or ending programmes.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Minister. These deep cuts to the budget do show the great problem in the lack of control and structure that this place has over the budget. We are over-reliant on decisions taken at the other end of the M4, but that's another issue.

There are many departments in this place that have suffered, but yours has been hit particularly hard. Compared to your £75 million, the economy department's cuts are £28 million, local government £29 million, and agriculture £17 million. Are projects and aspirations such as the million Welsh speakers by 2050 still sustainable in light of such cuts from Westminster? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for acknowledging the context in terms of the pressures on our expenditure and the reasons for that, and I would agree with his analysis with regard to those reasons. In terms of the cuts, the figures from my department, of course, are higher in absolute terms because the budget is far higher in absolute terms too, but as a percentage it's slightly less than some of the other departments. And the Cabinet was content to agree that there was a different approach in that regard.

The emphasis that I have tried to place on this very undesirable process is one where we were looking at where there was underspend, rather than making specific cuts to the kinds of schemes and plans that he was talking about. As a result of that, I am confident that the aim, as he mentioned, of a million Welsh speakers, that the plans that are currently in train towards that aim won't be detrimentally impacted by the statements I've had to make this year.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister, for providing some insight into the impact of the education cuts. However, in relation to the target of free school meals roll-out, I still have some reservations over the specific cuts as a result of the reduction in uptake. We know that many councils were predicting to overspend considerably in order to implement the FSM policy—Flintshire by £0.5 million, Gwynedd by £0.5 million, I believe, and Monmouthshire by circa £300,000, just to name a few—overspends that can be attributed to the rising cost of food, the increase in staffing required, and ongoing infrastructure. Councils have expressly told me that the funding model is not working, and unless this is recognised you are asking them to subsidise the increasing costs to fund your free school meals target. Minister, will you pledge today an absolute commitment to fully fund all costs associated with the roll-out of the free school meals policy?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for the question. I know that he and his party do not in fact support this policy at all, but just to give some assurance to those who do support the policy, the funding that has been released, which is £11.5 million from a budget of £70 million, relates to the fact that this is a demand-led grant to local authorities, and despite this reduction there remains sufficient budget to cover the current roll-out plans, which remain on track. This partly reflects our phased approach to the roll-out. So, we've effectively reviewed the demand and uptake of the offer in recent weeks to confirm the level of funding that is now required, and the level of funding that could, if you like, safely be made available. So, the funding model that we have has been built to accommodate increases in demand, and our grant offer commits us to paying claims from local authorities based on the level of uptake experienced rather than that projected—so, even where it’s higher than the figures that have been originally anticipated. So, we’ve allowed provision in the new budget to accommodate growth in that, and the Member will know that we have also committed to undertaking a review of the unit rate per meal, which is associated with the commitment, and we will have the outcome of that analysis later in this year, and I’ll be able to speak to our local government colleagues about the implications of that at that time. But I recognise the point that some local authority leaders have made in relation to that.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the findings in Estyn's Chief Inspector's Annual Report 2022-2023? OQ60136

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Estyn provides an important annual independent assessment of the quality of education and training provision in Wales. I welcome the chief inspector providing an early insight into inspection findings, as last year. It is important that we take time to reflect on the findings of the summary report.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Obviously, in these early findings the chief inspector draws people’s attention to the fact that his inspectors in over two thirds of secondary schools found problems with grammar and punctuation. In your response to the press article that covered the interim report, there was confirmation that the Welsh Government had put in place actions to improve these figures in secondary schools, but didn’t go into what those improvements and what those measures were. Can you enlarge this afternoon on what exactly you have done when such a number of secondary schools—as I said, two thirds—found that in the grammar and punctuation there was need for dramatic improvement? I think urgent action is required in this particular area so that the cohort of learners aren’t missing out the opportunity to excel in school.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member is absolutely right about how important literacy broadly, but punctuation and grammar as part of that, is. It's absolutely essential that our young people are able to leave school confident in their literacy and in their use of punctuation and grammar. He'll remember that I made a statement to the Senedd a few months ago on our literacy programme more broadly, and I'll be providing a further update in relation to that in the coming weeks.

But there are interventions at all levels of the school journey, including post 16. He'll know in particular about the advanced skills baccalaureate introduced in September, which will be taken by the majority of 16 to 18-year-old A-level learners, for example, and that includes elements in relation to supporting literacy. But I'll be able to report more fully on that in the coming weeks.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I drift between amazement and astonishment that there is a belief commonly shared in the Senedd in inspector infallibility. What inspection and external quality control mechanism is the Welsh Government using to ensure that Estyn inspection results are consistent and fair?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member is right: fairness and consistency of inspections obviously are essential to build public confidence in the Welsh education system. The Member obviously knows that Estyn is an independent body, but I'm aware that Estyn has a range of processes in place to ensure that question of consistency, which includes publishing a suite of inspection guidance documents that set out what they expect, what they inspect and how they expect inspectors to do that, which provides clarity and transparency. But there's also a robust ongoing training programme that ensures that all inspectors apply the frameworks consistently. There are annual updates for all its external inspectors. As he knows, most are current practitioners who carry out the role of a peer inspector on every team. And there's an audited quality assurance process for inspections and reports, which includes additional quality assurance and moderation where a provider is placed in follow-up.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I'm sure that you, like many of us, have enjoyed the excellent coverage of the Rugby World Cup on S4C. Being able to enjoy a sport you love in the Welsh language is something special. I only wish that Wales had lasted longer in the tournament so that there was more S4C coverage. However, I was disappointed about the remarks made to my constituent the former international player Mike Phillips regarding the standard of his Welsh by a now former S4C senior officer. Mike brushed off the comments and provided excellent analysis in Welsh. However, such comments could be damaging to the confidence of those whose Welsh may not be deemed perfect. And if we are to meet the 2050 targets, these kinds of attitudes must end. What action are you taking to ensure that such attitudes are not the main stream and that Welsh speakers of all abilities are encouraged to make use of the language without being judged?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

First of all, may I thank the Member for that question? It is in line with the emphasis that he gives, and I applaud him for that, in ensuring that the Welsh language is accessible to all and that we welcome everyone who seeks to learn and use the Welsh language. As he knows, I am an advocate for the idea that the Welsh language belongs to each and every one of us, including those who know only a few words, and others who are confident Welsh speakers, and that the important thing is to ensure that we use the Welsh language skills that we have at all possible opportunities and that everyone else should welcome people's efforts in doing that. It's been comforting to hear more and more Members in this Chamber using more Welsh in our discussions. So, we need to continue to send that message to speakers in all communications and in the way that we discuss the language too. It's not being fluent that's important, but ensuring that we use the skills that we have and learn more and more every day if we can.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. On the other end of the spectrum then, we have the comment by Professor Nigel Hunt from Wrexham University about bilingual road signs. His comments have rightly been criticised across the board. I understand that he now no longer works for the university. What he said is a lazy assessment of the situation and displays an ignorance of the status of the language in Wales. However, and unfortunately, these views do resonate with a small number of people, often those living in communities that are close to the English border. I disagree with them and I believe that the language makes us stronger as a country. But does the Minister believe that the sacking of Professor Hunt was the right course of action for the university to take? And what is the Welsh Government doing to encourage those who remain sceptical about the value of speaking Welsh to get on board with the 'Cymraeg 2050' project?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The particular steps that the university took are a matter for them, but, certainly, I disagree with the comments made by the professor, as many others do. But what I would say is that, for every individual who's looking to criticise the use of the Welsh language, there are far more people who feel an affection for the language, and, whether they speak the language or not, do want to hear and speak more and more of it. So it’s an opportunity for us to celebrate and welcome them, as well as ensuring that those kinds of views are unacceptable.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you once again for that response, Minister. Over the last few days, it was announced that the popular language app Duolingo is stopping several language courses, including Welsh. And whilst the course will not be removed, it does mean that the content will not be updated or added to. Duolingo said in 2020 that Welsh was the fastest-growing language on the app in the UK, with over 1.5 million people using the app to learn Welsh. Your department has been in touch with the company. May I ask what proposals the Welsh Government has made, and whether any response has been received from Duolingo management?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Duolingo is one of the means that people use to access the Welsh language—one of the many means, of course—and it continues to be an attractive route, for reasons we could fully understand. I have written to Duolingo, asking them to reconsider the decision that they have taken. But as the Member mentioned, the Welsh language won’t be removed from the platform—it will remain there. And as the Member may recall, the Welsh language is one of the few examples—perhaps the only example—where it’s not volunteers that create the content for the app. For some time now, the National Centre for Learning Welsh has been responsible for developing the content of the app in the Welsh language, and they have built on the excellent work done by volunteers prior to that. So, in light of that, my understanding is that there has been more and swifter development for the Welsh language on the app than in some other languages. So it’s possible that the impact will be less detrimental on the Welsh language than on some other languages. But I would like to see Duolingo reversing its decision, not least for the fact that we do have a structure in place that is funded in Wales and is ready to continue to develop content on the app.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Minister, if I may return to the savings that were found this year, and specifically with regard to the initial teacher training and education budget. As you are aware, there are three incentive schemes open to students. Can you outline, please, how much savings were identified, and in which of these three incentive schemes that are available?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I don’t have those figures in front of me, but I would be happy to share them with the Member.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much. It would be beneficial to know that, because obviously we really do need more teachers—that’s why these schemes exist. Because you have found savings this year, it would be beneficial to know which of those three schemes has been impacted, because we do need to be getting students and teachers into these areas—there is a reason why you’ve placed such emphasis on this. So why do you think that the number who are taking these incentives is lower than expected, and have you assessed yet what the implications of that will be?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Of course, there is some relationship between providing incentives and an increase in numbers—it’s not entirely clear, but the general picture does demonstrate that there is a positive interrelationship between the two. I would say that this is one of the ways that we encourage people to become teachers, teaching Welsh, and other subjects too. It’s an important approach, and we will continue with those incentives next year for those reasons. Just to say, it’s the difference between what we anticipated would happen and what happened on the ground—that’s what the savings are in this case. So, we haven’t made cuts or prevented any individual form accessing this support. And what we forecast year to year does shift—you’d expect to see that. But I’d be happy to share those specific figures with the Member.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote the adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism by the further and higher education sector in Wales? OQ60147

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism—which, as the Member knows, the Welsh Government itself has done—is a matter for universities and FE institutions themselves. However, whilst I respect institutional autonomy, I have been clear with university leaders that I would like to see them adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm very pleased that you've made clear what the Government's position is on this. Earlier this year, the Community Security Trust published a report that showed a 22 per cent increase in university-related antisemitic hate incidents over the past two years, and according to the Campaign Against Antisemitism, there's been a huge surge of 1,350 per cent in antisemitic incidents across the UK since the start of the ongoing hostilities between Israel and Hamas in recent weeks.

We all agree that hate incidents should not be tolerated, particularly at publicly funded institutions. But, regrettably, unlike the overwhelming majority of universities in England and Scotland, the Welsh higher education sector, and the further education sector, is way behind in adopting the IHRA antisemitism definition. I appreciate what you say, that, from a legal perspective, it is a matter for Welsh universities to decide whether they adopt the definition or not, but the Government holds the purse strings for significant sums of income for these organisations. Therefore, can I ask you, will you now take further action on this front by requiring all Welsh further education colleges and all Welsh universities to adopt the IHRA definition as a condition of funding from the Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As the Member, I think, knows from our previous discussions, I met Lord Mann, who is the UK Government's adviser on antisemitism, to discuss the approach in relation to educational institutions. I met also with the Union of Jewish Students, and with the National Union of Students Wales in relation to this, and I've raised this not just with vice-chancellors, but also with university chairs. He knows what my personal position is, and what the Government's position is. Universities in Wales are following the Universities UK guidance in relation to antisemitism and Islamophobia.

I do agree with the Member about the importance of bearing down on incidents of antisemitism, and, indeed, Islamophobia, in our education system generally. There are clear obligations in the anti-racist Wales action plan on all parts of our education system. This week, I'm meeting, together with the Minister for Social Justice, with representatives of the Jewish community in Wales to discuss their concerns about incidents of antisemitism in our education system, and it will be an important opportunity to hear their perspectives and what more we can do to support them in that.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve support for pupils with additional learning needs? OQ60154

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The additional learning needs system changes both the legal framework and practices to help ensure children and young people with ALN receive the support they need to meet their individual needs.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Minister. Qualifications Wales's recent equalities analysis of the 2023 results found that pupils with ALN are three times less likely to achieve a grade of A/7 or above. These results simply underline the widely held belief that we are failing pupils with additional needs. It is clear that we can't continue on the current path. Minister, you have refused calls for mandatory training in additional learning needs for education staff. Will you now reconsider? How can we possibly hope to improve the education of young people with ALN if teachers fail to grasp the challenges faced by the 20 to 40 per cent of learners who are currently struggling within our education system? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The results for 2022-23 will be the results of young people who haven't yet been through the education system in its reformed form, with the implementation of the additional learning needs reforms. As the Member knows, we are two years into a four-year transformation programme, which will have the effect of improving outcomes at all levels for young people with additional learning needs, and more closely addressing their particular needs.

In relation to the question of mandatory training, this is a subject that has been discussed in this Chamber on many occasions. You will know, I think, from those earlier discussions that we are tightening the requirements for accreditation for initial teacher education and for induction, and that we've invested in a large programme of professional learning, which is intended to support the workforce in relation to ALN implementation.

As he will know, I'm sure, from the Estyn thematic review most recently, there are some points in that review that we will take into account in relation to what further training and resources we can provide. And I am planning on making a full statement after the half term in relation to how we respond more generally to both our own findings and those from Estyn in relation to the ALN reforms more broadly.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Minister, we have seen a number of petitions recently regarding support for pupils with additional learning needs. The petitions were a wide range, calling for reviews of the Act, calling for reform of the Act and also calling for funding for specialist provision, such as dedicated support plans. I'm aware that my colleague Jayne Bryant is leading an inquiry into the implementation of the ALN Act, as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and I await the recommendations with interest, Minister. But what assurances can you give to the petitioners today that their views will be taken into serious consideration, going forward?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you to Jack Sargeant for that question. I'm obviously aware of the petition and the CYPE committee's ongoing inquiry on education reforms. And, just to be clear, I think the insights of parents and carers are absolutely vital and, whatever level of support a petition is getting, I think it's incumbent on us to listen to what we are hearing and to take that fully into account. As I mentioned just now in my response to Altaf Hussain, we are around halfway through the implementation of the new reform programme. And I think the insights of parents and carers have been vital in helping us understand how that is working on the ground, and the insights of the petitioners chime with those we are receiving both from other stakeholders and the parent events that SNAP deliver on our behalf. Also, some of the points made are consistent with the Estyn thematic review, which I also just mentioned.

I think, in hearing the voices of parents and carers in the way that we want to, there are clearly areas in the ALN system that need to be improved on, and we are working with local authorities, with other education stakeholders, to share those insights more broadly across the system and to identify those challenges, but very much informed by the voice of parents and carers as well, so that we can mitigate some of those perhaps unexpected variations that we've seen—there will always be a level of variation, but some of the unexpected variations—and so that we can develop solutions to those particular challenges.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

5. How is the Welsh Government encouraging children and young people to develop their literacy skills? OQ60166

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, literacy is at the heart of the Curriculum for Wales as one of the mandatory cross-curricular skills. Literacy skills are key to our children and young people being able to access learning for life and in breaking down the barriers to reaching their potential in education and beyond.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. We rightly often talk about the whole-school approach to mental health. As reading is so important for all learners as a gateway to learning, there is merit in pursuing a whole-school approach to reading and literacy. What could the Welsh Government do to achieve that? And what assessment has the Minister made of the contribution of phonics to improving literacy and oracy?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that supplementary question. It's absolutely crucial, I think, that we take a whole-system approach to literacy and oracy, reflecting the point that the leader of the opposition asked about earlier as well. The oracy and reading toolkit, which we published in March, provides a package of support to schools and practitioners, so that they can try and identify opportunities to achieve high standards of listening, speaking and reading, and literacy more broadly, where the whole school community is working together in the way that the Member's question highlighted, and doing that in a way that is co-ordinated and consistent, and, importantly, in a very sustained way.

On the question of phonics, the curriculum framework sets out a clear policy approach to the initial teaching of reading and of systematic phonics. But I want to make sure that is being sufficiently emphasised and fully realised, if you like, in schools as they roll out the curriculum. So, we are working during this autumn term with the regions and with others to set out a consistent expectation of the role that phonics can play as part of a broader suite of interventions, and I'll be hoping to make a further statement in relation to that. But I think that role of a consistent national approach towards phonics as part of a broader suite of interventions is a really important aspect of how that whole-school approach can genuinely deliver on literacy for our young people.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, I just wanted to come back to the answers you gave to the leader of the opposition surrounding the Estyn chief inspector's comments in his interim annual report. Andrew R.T. Davies, of course, noted that the report mentioned that there were too many primary pupils making basic errors in grammar and punctuation that are not addressed well enough through teacher feedback. In fact, more than six in 10 of the 28 secondaries inspected in the 2022-23 academic year had a recommendation to improve the effectiveness of their teaching, while Estyn found that, in half of all the age-three-to-16 schools inspected, there were too many inconsistencies in the quality of teaching, and three of the seven special schools inspected received a recommendation relating to improving consistency in quality of teaching. Now, I know many teachers, as I'm sure you do as well, and they do a sterling job, I think, on behalf of their pupils, but, for me, there are too many references in that interim report in terms of the quality of teaching, and that is a concern. And ultimately, the Welsh Government, I think, is as responsible for teaching quality as it is for teaching provision. So, in light of the comments in this report, what steps are you taking to improve the quality of teaching that pupils do receive?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I do recognise the points the Member is quoting from the report. I think it's also important to say, both in response to the points he's made and that the leader of the opposition made, that this is part of an overall assessment of all parts of our education system, and, perhaps understandably, the Member is highlighting some of the challenges, but I would encourage people with an interest to read the report to see the very, very wide range of very positive things about the work our teachers do day in, day out, which the Estyn inspectorate is also encouraging us to pay attention to.

It's absolutely important to make sure that the quality of teaching and learning is the very highest possible. Our national professional learning entitlement plays an absolutely fundamental role in ensuring that practitioners across Wales have access to high-quality professional learning throughout their career. As part of the work to embed that entitlement, we are introducing a new validation process that will ensure progressively that all the resources available are of the highest possible standard. There's a lot of available support and resources for teachers to identify their training needs in accordance with the professional standards as professionals. The challenge isn't, I think, the quality of the resource; it's sometimes around the navigability—how you go about finding it, in a way—where teachers who are very time poor, if you like, may find that challenging. So, there's a piece of work already under way in relation to that. And he will, I'm sure, know about the new professional learning area on Hwb that is intended to bring all of that together to make it easier for teachers to find. We are absolutely committed to making sure that teacher development, and practitioner development more broadly, is adequately resourced, and he will know that we have dedicated funding that we provide for schools and also time for practitioners to engage with professional learning opportunities, including an additional national professional learning in-service training day, backed up by funding.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

6. How is the Government supporting Welsh-medium childcare provision? OQ60164

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our 'Cymraeg 2050' action plan sets out our commitment to expanding Welsh-medium nursery provision. We continue to work closely with Mudiad Meithrin and other partners to grow the Welsh-medium childcare sector, investing in the workforce and in building new settings in all parts of Wales.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that response. Last week, the Welsh Liberal Democrats introduced our plan to transform childcare and early years' provision across Wales. One element of the report is Welsh-medium provision, which continues to be scarce across the country. Expanding Welsh-medium childcare is crucial in order to reach the aspirations of 'Cymraeg 2050'. The statistics are clear: nationally, only 15 per cent of settings provide through the medium of Welsh, and only 10 per cent offer bilingual care. We have a postcode lottery for Welsh-medium access across the country, and some parents have no choice but to use English-medium provision. I'm sure that you would agree that this is entirely unacceptable. I hope that you would accept our report and respond to its recommendations. But, how are you going to improve provision for children through the medium of Welsh and also highlight the issue?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'd be very interested to read the report. I share the priority that the Member has placed on the importance of this, for reasons that we would both share in terms of our ambitions for the language and for the provision for our children and young people.

After reaching the previous target of 40 new groups in the first three years, despite COVID, the Set Up and Succeed programme is now moving on to establishing 60 settings during this Senedd. Seventeen settings through the medium of Welsh were opened during 2022-23 under the brand of the Set Up and Succeed programme.

Since 2022, additional funding of just under £4 million has been allocated to Cwlwm over three years to add to the training through the medium of Welsh, as well as for the workforce and so on. That contributes towards the aim of additional staffing, and £70 million-worth of capital has been allocated to the sector in Wales, with a particular emphasis on strengthening provision through the medium of Welsh.

Earlier this month, 13,000 children had access to the childcare offer in Wales and, of these, just under 3,000, or 22 per cent, received that through the medium of Welsh.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

While we are on the subject of the Welsh language, I would like to congratulate staff and pupils at Ysgol y Llys in Prestatyn and friends of the cylch on their recent successes in the Mudiad Meithrin awards, which recently carried out its seventh awards ceremony. The whole objective, as you will be aware, of Mudiad Meithrin is to create new Welsh speakers by supporting children and their families to access various education, play and childcare services. So, will you welcome the congratulations for Ysgol y Llys in Prestatyn and friends of the cylch for the fantastic work work that they do to promote the Welsh language and enhance the Welsh language experience in Denbighshire?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm sure that they will be very delighted with the fact that you have raised that in the Chamber today—the support that you are providing to your local school—and I'm very happy to endorse and share that. Congratulations to them.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

I recently attended the opening of Wibli Wobli nursery, based in Rogerstone in my constituency. Founded by Natasha Baker, it is the very first Welsh language day care nursery in Newport. It's a wonderful nursery, and children who are attending do not need to speak any Welsh to join, but will soon gain all the benefits of learning Welsh at a young age. With a shortage of Welsh-speaking childcare professionals, one of the issues that has been raised with me is around the time that it takes to train. I understand that it takes about 18 months to qualify. Is this something that the Welsh Government could look at—whether it is possible to implement some kind of fast-track system? And how can the Welsh Government help support the already qualified childcare professionals who may wish to move across to Welsh-medium provision?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, congratulations to Wibli Wobli, and I'm pleased to hear them acknowledged in the Chamber as well. I think that the Member makes an important point about making every effort that we can to ensure that those who wish to be able to practise and provide important services through the medium of Welsh face as few barriers as possible to do that. I will be very happy to consider further with officials whether there is more that we can do in terms of the time frames that the Member referred to in order to maximise the opportunities for people to do that.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

7. Will the Minister provide an update on the uptake of degree apprenticeships? OQ60153

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Higher level apprenticeships, as are all other apprenticeships, are the policy responsibility of the Minister for Economy, but we work closely, of course, across portfolios. The latest figures show increases in starts from academic years 2019 to 2022, and we recently launched a new rail engineering degree apprenticeship, which people will be starting from this January.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. We all know that going to university isn't for everybody. I recently visited a school in my constituency, and I talked to them there about the importance of going to do degrees—or degree apprenticeships as another option for them to enter the world of work. So, I would be very interested to know what work the Welsh Government is doing with our school leavers to make sure that they know of the range of options that are available to them when they go and leave school, so that they can enter degrees or degree apprenticeships where they can actually learn while working.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think the Member makes a very important point. He will, I'm sure, have read the report of Hefin David in relation to transitions from education to employment, which is very much on a similar theme. I know he shares that view and I feel very strongly about that. We have to make sure that our young people are getting the best possible, tailored, bespoke individual advice that relates to their personal circumstances and their personal ambitions. We should absolutely be making it clear that a degree apprenticeship is a very attractive opportunity for many young people. He will know we're consolidating the expansion of degree apprenticeships into new sectors and increasing existing pathways to meet the programme for government commitment that we have. We have prioritised apprenticeship investment into those sectors that we feel will do most to support economic growth and community cohesion, so net zero and the foundation economy are a part of the underlying themes for some of those. And he will know that in addition to the work on the rail apprenticeship, we are currently devising the apprenticeship in the construction sector. So, I hope that will provide opportunities for many more of his constituents and mine and indeed others.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

8. What steps is the Minister taking to embed the principles of ocean literacy in education? OQ60140

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Learning about the environment is mandatory in the Curriculum for Wales. There are opportunities within the curriculum for schools to include learning about ocean literacy, sustainability and the impact of human action on the environment in their curriculum.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. So, an ocean literate person understands the essential principles and fundamental concepts about the ocean. They can communicate about the ocean in a meaningful way and they are able to make informed and responsible decisions regarding the ocean and its resources. Now, a project worked on by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Scottish Government and Natural Resources Wales found that knowledge gaps exist among young people for several marine terms. For example, 'eutrophication', 'the UN decade of ocean science', 'blue carbon', 'natural capital', 'carbon sequestration', 'ocean literacy', 'marine citizenship', 'ocean acidification', 'ecosystem services' and 'nature-based solutions' are not well understood. Less than 50 per cent of respondents understood each of those terms. So, 43 per cent of people mostly get their information about the ocean from television or radio and the news. We can do better. The National Marine Educators Association and the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization have excellent resources available online for schools. So, what steps could you take to improve ocean literacy throughout the curriculum?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I do recognise that, certainly in the past, the challenges that the Member has articulated today have been very real. But I do feel that the tide is turning. I'm sure that the Member will know that a working group of the Wales Coasts and Seas Partnership, which is led by Natural Resources Wales, to which she referred in her question, is drafting an ocean literacy strategy to connect people with the marine environment and improve its management and resilience. And the action areas in the strategy, importantly, include improving knowledge and skills and embedding ocean literacy into education. She will also, perhaps, be aware that eco-schools have developed a suite of resources titled 'Be the Wave', which covers ocean and seas. Additionally, my officials are currently working with the Wales Coastal Monitoring Centre to publish a suite of resources on climate change and its coastal impact. In her own part of Wales, the GwE consortia are working with BP and with EnBW, who are developing offshore windfarms to support schools with information in relation to subjects related to fixed offshore wind.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

9. How is the Welsh Government supporting teachers to access opportunities for high-quality professional learning? OQ60145

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Ensuring high-quality teaching through career-long professional learning is integral to our vision for education in Wales. I recently announced a new national endorsement process to quality-assure professional learning provision for the education workforce. Professor Ken Jones will lead this work, supported by a panel of experts and practitioners.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I welcome your statement of 14 September and the work of the soon-to-be-established national endorsement panel. Do you agree with me, Minister, that high-quality professional learning is crucially important in supporting the roll-out of the new curriculum, allowing teachers to continually benefit from new developments and approaches in the field of education, and also allowing the sharing of best practice through Hwb?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I do share that view with some diffidence, given her professional background and her knowledge of this at first-hand. But the professional learning entitlement, which is now a little over a year old, I think is already playing an important role, really, on that journey to making sure that all practitioners have access to quality PL and so that they can make sure that their professional development needs are met. I think the twin challenges that we are trying to resolve, partly through the work that Professor Jones and the other experts will help us with, are, on the one hand, navigability, to make sure that the huge content library that exists can be easily navigated so that practitioners who are short of time can find what they need to find simply and in a way that is curated helpfully for them. Our creation of the new space on Hwb is the beginning of that process. But, secondly, there's that idea of assurance, so that every resource available via those pages on Hwb ultimately are ones in which practitioners can have confidence as having been reviewed by practitioners or by other experts and given the seal of their blessing. So, it's an exciting new stage, I think, in our professional learning journey in Wales, driven by that entitlement, which I should also say is available to teaching assistants in the same way that it is to teachers, which is also a new development.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 10, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

10. What recent discussions has the Minister had with higher education institutions regarding their financial sustainability? OQ60159

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Over the summer months, I have had conversations with higher education institution leaders and chairs, and with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, about the financial stability of the higher education sector in Wales. Discussions are ongoing with officials and Ministers on this very important issue.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I understand that, at a recent meeting of the sector that you, Minister, were present at, a number of the institutions represented there said that they were considering the possibility of merging in response to the challenging financial situation. Can you confirm that that information and impression was correct and what is the Government's stance when it comes to further mergers in the sector in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

No-one's put that proposal to me. Discussions, of course, are ongoing in light of the tertiary education and research commission on how providers within the post-16 sector can collaborate more effectively in many different ways. That is part of the mindset at the heart of those reforms to ensure, for the benefit of learners, that there is far more collaboration and partnership across the sector.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister for that session.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 3 is the topical questions. There were two questions received today. The first is from Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government will work with partners to support communities following the impact of Storm Babet? TQ887

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I know the devastation flooding can cause to communities. The full detail of storm Babet's impact on communities in Wales is still emerging, but, once known, I will issue a written statement to Members, as committed by the Trefnydd during yesterday's Plenary business questions.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Minister for that answer and for the commitment of the written statement in due course. Minister, you'll be aware, over the weekend, the areas of Sandycroft, Mancot, Broughton, Pen-y-ffordd and surrounding communities were badly impacted by storm Babet. This is not the first time that houses in these communities were flooded. Following previous incidents in 2021, in particular, I produced a report that called for a number of sensible steps to mitigate the possibility of future flooding. Now, whilst work has taken place, it’s clear progress has not been quick enough. Responsibility lies with the local authority, with Natural Resources Wales, with Welsh Water and the utility companies, but we do need additional resources to be made available to give householders some certainty about the future. Minister, we also need joined-up working from the agencies I’ve listed responsible. How can you use your office in the ministry for climate change to ensure this happens?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Jack Sargeant, for that question. We’re obviously working very closely with NRW, with the water companies, with the UK Government, actually, and with local authorities in their role as lead local flood authorities to move to both flood and coastal erosion defence and also mitigation measures. As I know Jack Sargeant knows, the risk management authority—or the local council, as it’s more commonly known by people in the area—needs to put forward schemes to propose them for funding. I know that the local council there has had a number of schemes in the pipeline between 2010 and 2018, and they have applied for a couple of small schemes since then, but we will work with them to make sure that they have got the right pipeline in place for those schemes coming forward.

I also want to highlight that in terms of what the community can do to help itself, Natural Resources Wales does work with local communities to get flood resilience forums going and to make sure that people are aware of how to listen for flood warnings if they’re in a flood-risk area, and then what to do to make sure that they stay out of harm.

I just want to express my deepest sympathy for the families of those who lost their lives in both England and Scotland over the weekend, and indeed to express my gratitude for the large number of public service staff who worked around the clock during the storms in order to try and keep as many people safe as they possibly could.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

You’ll be aware, Llywydd, that I actually tabled an emergency question yesterday on this matter that was refused, and I am thinking, if storm Babet, with all the terrible deaths and the injuries and everything and the fact that it was just devastating—. What does merit an emergency question? Now, lives, as we mentioned, were lost and my thoughts and prayers go out to all of those families involved. Trains were cancelled, the A483 in Powys, the A55 in Flintshire and other roads were impassable. The fire service received a staggering number of calls. Now, in Llandudno, which of course has low-lying sea levels, and compounded with a high tide, actually—. Three areas in my constituency of Llandudno—well, just in the Llandudno area—were seriously affected: residents trapped, others evacuated, many fighting to hold back water with towels, contradictory information about sandbags, no joined-up plan on the ground, and a fire officer informing me that he couldn’t get hold of Conwy County Borough Council and Welsh Water. What struck me most, however, was the fact that whilst I was in touch with the council leader at Conwy, other rescue services were out and about doing their very best, but when speaking to North Wales Police and the fire service, there didn’t seem to be an apparent plan in place. There was a definite information and communication vacuum. Now, I’ve already taken it upon myself to raise concerns with the council leader, with the view of holding a virtual joined-up meeting of all the multi-agency teams who you would expect to be working in such situations very closely indeed.

So, you’ve previously stated, Minister, that there is this guidance, there are plans in place, so in reiterating the question from Jack Sargeant: what steps are you taking to work with all partner agencies to ensure that there is better joined-up thinking and a plan in place, a strategic approach, when such disasters happen, for now, or next time, or indeed any future storms, and also how we as Members can be kept fully informed correctly through the day? Because we heard lots of rumours the pumping station had packed up; it hadn’t packed up, it was overwhelmed. And in 1993—we're all terrified of that scenario happening again, and people are now still contacting me in fear of what they witnessed again on Friday. So, really, I’m just asking again: we need a strategic joined-up plan, all agencies feeding into it, and whatever help you can give, I’d be very grateful. Diolch.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, thank you, Janet. As I said, we're still doing the ongoing aftermath investigation, as we always do every time there are severe storms. I just want to make it really clear that nobody in Wales lost their life. I'm very, very sad about the individuals in England and Scotland who did, but I think it's important to be accurate about that.

We did have a co-ordinated response out. As I say, I'm very grateful to all the blue light responders and NRW staff, Dŵr Cymru staff and Hafren Dyfrdwy staff, all of whom worked all through the storm. A number of staff from the electrical companies also worked through, trying to make sure that services stayed connected. We also had the local resilience fora in operation, and a number of the other pan-Wales organisations. I, myself, was getting situation reports throughout the whole of the incident.

But we can, Llywydd, expect more of these incidents as climate change escalates. It is not going to be possible unless we implement severe net zero climate change mitigation and adaptation plans to do anything about this. And I know the Member is sincere in what she says, but it does not help that her party oppose every single thing that we ever do to try to mitigate climate change. We must keep the temperature of the world down below 1.5 degrees over base, or we will be looking at this kind of thing on a very regular basis. So, absolutely, Llywydd, we need to have the best response once these things are happening, but, if we're to mitigate this, we really must act together and be rather more radical than the Member's party would have you believe.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

On Sunday morning, flood defences in Trevalyn near Wrexham weren't fully utilised, leaving, of course, homes ankle deep in water. I know Natural Resources Wales have confirmed that they're investigating why the defences weren't fully used, and residents are quite rightly asking why a slatted barrier and a pump usually used before water levels rise weren't employed. Now, it would be interesting to hear what your understanding is of what went wrong there, or at least by when do you expect Natural Resources Wales to report back to you on what went wrong there. But one of the concerns around the Wrexham local development plan, of course, is that it will allow large housing developments in areas prone to flooding. That's what's happening with key strategic sites on either side of Wrexham, as well as on a site in Rossett that is actually next door to the housing that was inundated with floodwater at the weekend. So, do you still, Minister, think it's appropriate to impose Wrexham's rejected LDP on the area, given the now heightened concerns around flooding on some of the sites that are included in the plan?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, Llywydd, I've already answered several questions on Wrexham's LDP. Nobody's imposing anything on them. This is the council's own LDP. It and its officers took the LDP through all of the stages right to the final point, and the thing that's causing them not to be able to respond to speculative development is the lack of an LDP. So, I fear the Member is badly misinformed about the effect of what happens when you aren't able to adopt your own LDP.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you, Jack Sargeant, for raising this today. My property was impacted by flooding, and I couldn't get home either to do anything about it because the train lines were flooded as well. Landowners need to take responsibility. They need to make sure that their ditches, culverts are cleared. I see that fields, ditches and everything now pour onto highways, and the highway drains can't cope—the very old Victorian infrastructure.

Very often, people just blame the council and expect the council to provide sandbags, but it's not really their responsibility. Going forward, I was wondering if you could look at the mapping of drains. I know that, at one time, council workers used to know where all the drains and ditches were, but, during 10 years of cuts, that information has not been passed on. They're not able to keep clearing ditches. It's the same with NRW; it's very costly, very expensive, and it is up to landowners under riparian law. So, if we could map where the culverts and ditches are, who is responsible, and if some information could be produced by NRW and the council to give to landowners saying, 'Under riparian law, you are responsible for maintaining your ditches and drains', I think that would be helpful. Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch. Diolch, Carolyn. This year alone, we're investing over £74 million in flooding and coastal erosion risk management in Wales. That's the highest ever annual spend on flood risk management in Wales to date. We already know, as you've said, that it's not possible to stop or prevent all coastal erosion and flooding, but we are taking steps to reduce the consequences and help create more resilient communities across Wales. I'm really sorry to hear of your personal experience. I was returning from north Wales myself on Friday, and we were unable to get through quite a lot of the road network because of flooding. It was a very severe storm indeed, and I want to, as I continue to say, thank the emergency services for all the work they were doing. Some extremely wet public servants were out telling us where the roads were blocked and where we could go, and I know that they were there for the rest of that night.

We are doing an extensive mapping service, which, indeed, as you point out, will support better understanding and wider adaptation to protect our communities from risk. I absolutely agree with you about understanding how your home is situated and what your responsibilities are, if you are near any kind of watercourse, to keep that watercourse clear and to make sure that it's functioning properly, and indeed to understand what the alert mechanisms are if there's a sudden deluge. I mean, there was a deluge on Thursday and Friday. We actually watched some of the rivers—. On our journey back from north Wales, we actually watched some of the rivers fill up—it was so fast. So, we need to make sure that we are creating more resilient communities across Wales. I do hope people will take advantage of the resources on NRW's website, and indeed of their community officers, to help get more resilient communities and to help people understand what they themselves can do to keep themselves safe, and indeed what flood resources there are available. We will of course be investigating all of the flooding that occurred, trying to understand what caused it, whether the flood defences were overwhelmed or didn't function properly, and what we can do to increase the adaptation.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is supposed to make public bodies listed in the Act, including local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, NRW, think more about the long term, work better with people and communities and each other, look to prevent problems and take a more joined-up approach. However, a resident of Leeswood, Flintshire, e-mailed, 'Although predicted, extreme rain conditions on 19 and 20 October caused flooding and distress to many, and damage to their property and livelihood. One feature that is ever present is the lack of maintenance to rainwater gullies, which are typically blocked with leaves and sediment. Although this has been reported to NRW, who are responsible for this watercourse, they failed to act in any capacity.'

After I intervened on behalf of flooded residents in Broughton, Flintshire, in 2021, Flintshire County Council detailed the actions they would take, including that priority would be given to elderly and vulnerable residents and known flooding black spots. However, e-mails received last weekend after the same properties flooded again related, amongst others, to a single parent with multiple sclerosis asking why weren't measures taken to provide the residents in the at-risk homes with sandbags.

And a final example: a housing association e-mailed after ground-floor flats in Mold, Flintshire, were again flooded, stating, 'We know that the drains are inadequate and have seen a scheme designed many years ago, which would provide a long-term solution.' This 2017 feasibility study, commissioned by Flintshire County Council, recommended that a copy of the report be submitted to the Welsh Government for confirmation that grant funding was available, but the scheme was never implemented. So, what is the point of the future generations Act if avoidable failures such as these are allowed to continue to devastate lives?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, thank you, Mark. As I've said a number of time already now, it is early days. We are looking into all of the issues that occurred throughout the flooding, which was widespread as a result of the storm. I will put forward a written statement once we know what the issues were. We will be investigating all of the issues around whether flood defences were inadequate or overwhelmed or not working, where there are additional flood defences required, and we will be talking to the local authorities, in their risk management authority capacity, about the schemes they are bringing forward for flooding. I'm not yet in any position to be able to report back on that, since it's only a few days since the storm.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm pleased that this subject has been raised today by Jack Sargeant, as large parts of my constituency are vulnerable to storms, particularly in the areas that run parallel to the River Clwyd in Rhuddlan, St Asaph and also in lower Dyserth, given it has a waterfall and adjoining river that flows through the village. And in previous years, and indeed over the weekend last weekend, the rivers and waters swelled, burst their banks, leaving my constituents' businesses and their properties in a high degree of vulnerability every time we experience a sustained period of rainfall. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could inform my constituents what steps the Welsh Government are taking to address these environmental realities in the Vale of Clwyd, and what conversations has or will the Minister have with partners and stakeholders in reducing the consequences of adverse weather conditions in Denbighshire so that my constituents can be reassured that the Welsh Government are doing all that they can to mitigate these risks and provide public reassurance as we head into the winter period.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you. So, as I've said, Llywydd, a number of times now, we are in the process of the lessons learned that we always undertake after serious flood events. I would encourage Members though to make sure that they're aware of the resources that are available. We do have advice and support on how to join a community flood group, along with a list of organisations who provide support for flood groups, such as the National Flood Forum and local resilience forums. They're all available on NRW's website. We also have a number of community flood plans across Wales—74 as we speak. There are 37 communities in south Wales, 13 in mid, and 24 in north Wales taking action in terms of those community flood plans, so it's very possible that the Member has a community flood programme already in his area, and I would encourage him and his constituents to get onto NRW's website and make sure that they are taking advantage of all of the available resources.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'm afraid I'm not filled with much confidence as a result of the responses that I've heard today. I had areas in my constituency also that experienced flooding over the past weekend, places such as Llanddulas, Mochdre, parts of Colwyn Bay, Pensarn in Abergele, and many roads in the rural communities. It does strike me that one of the problems has been a cutback in the routine maintenance visits by NRW on the areas for which they are responsible. We know that there will now be section 19 reports and, obviously, NRW will need to undertake a review. I have to say, I've had a single e-mail from NRW, as have other Members of the Senedd, since these events. That's not good enough. We've not been offered any virtual briefings with NRW in the wake of what has happened. And I know that you say we're going to learn lessons and that you'll review these things and something will come forward for discussion, but it took two and a half years after the floods in 2020 and 2021 before a report was laid in this Senedd. I don’t want to be waiting two and a half years to see what could have been done to prevent some of the flooding that we all experienced last weekend. So, what assurances can you give us, Minister, that we won't be waiting two and a half years, that this will be a rapid exercise to look at the issues and challenges that people faced, so that we can learn lessons quickly and, more importantly, act more quickly in order that people's properties can be defended in the future?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I think, Darren, you're conflating two different types of report there. So, the report you're talking about was the overarching report into the usefulness or otherwise of the section 19 reports—that's what took the time to do. The section 19 reports themselves did not take that amount of time, of course, and neither did NRW's report, so I do think it's important not to conflate the different sorts of report that we looked at. The one you're referring to by Professor Elwen Evans KC is one which was an overarching report that looked at a very large number of other reports and took an overview of them. So, I think you're conflating two timescales there.

Llywydd, as I've said a number of times, it's obviously only a few days since storm Babet. We will need to make sure that we do the lessons learned. I can tell you that, so far, we know that 64 confirmed properties were flooded internally. They were in Conwy, Flintshire and Powys. We've received updates from around half of our local authorities so far. They're all early indications. The focus is still currently on response. The flood warning was not removed until yesterday in some parts of Wales, so this is very early days, and we will, of course, be expecting our various public sector authorities and our resilience fora to come forward with their reports in good time, but it is important to get it right and to understand the lessons that need to be learned.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Minister. The final topical question is from Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

2. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that Dŵr Cymru complies with its operational permit conditions following concerns over compliance against their discharge permits? TQ889

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We've been very clear that we expect water companies to work harder to deliver excellent services across all areas of their operation. My officials and I are working closely with Dŵr Cymru and NRW, who are the environmental regulators and are therefore responsible for water company permit compliance.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Minister. I was appalled, as I'm sure others were, by the revelation last week that Dŵr Cymru has been illegally dumping untreated sewage from dozens of treatment plants for years. This utter disregard for the rules meant to protect our precious, natural environment and our health is unacceptable. The scale of Dŵr Cymru's failure is astounding. The fact that nearly half of their waste water treatment plants break permit rules is shocking enough, but the situation at Aberteifi is particularly staggering, where untreated sewage has spilled out onto the coast for over 200 days per year since 2019.

We've all received the response from Dŵr Cymru about the report, which tells us that they've known about the issues and have been investigating now for a number of years, but that work on a new plant could take up to four years—four more years of illegal spillages and habitat catastrophe. I had little confidence before that Dŵr Cymru had a grasp of the situation, and now, following the report from the BBC, I have none at all. It does call into question how many other plants are in this position and what else we don't know.

I raised with the First Minister and the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee the desperate need for there to be an independent and comprehensive review of Dŵr Cymru's operation and performance. I would therefore ask you, Minister: will you now commit to launching a full, independent inquiry into the failures of Dŵr Cymru, because the public deserve answers? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Jane. I do absolutely expect water companies in Wales to work very much harder to deliver excellent services to customers across areas of operation. I have a number of meetings in train this week with Dŵr Cymru and NRW, including one with the two of them together, to discuss a number of issues, including this one.

I'm sure you know—. And I'm not here to be a spokesperson for Dŵr Cymru, far from it, but I'm sure you know that they have admitted that there are problems relating to technical issues and salt-water intrusion at the Cardigan waste water treatment works and that they're planning a £20 million investment. I think you just said that you were aware of that.

I just want to be—. Without making any excuse for them whatsoever, as I'm just as appalled as you are, I just want to be sure, though, that we're being accurate about it. So, just to be really clear, the classification of Poppit sands bathing water, which is in near proximity to the treatment plant in question, has retained its excellent classification and that continues to be the case. I don't want to alarm people who use those waters unduly. That's without excusing it, though, Jane. I absolutely agree with you that this is not good enough and we need to do something about it.

But like all of these things, there are a lot of politics behind this. The way that water investment has been treated over the last 14 or 15 years is to say that the water companies can only invest if they put the price of that onto the bills of their customers. That's not the way we invest in other infrastructure. We don't invest in roads in that way, for example, and there would be an outcry if we did, I'm sure. So, there are some political choices there being made here by the Conservative Government that are driving the lack of investment, and I sincerely hope that we'll get a Government that has a different approach to that in place, so that we can make the multi-million-pound, indeed billions of pounds', investment in our infrastructure for water that we really need, if we're to protect our natural environment.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Let's be honest here, it's no good pointing the finger at the UK Government. The situation in Wales is bad in terms of the pollution incidents we have. Welsh Water themselves have only recently admitted to the BBC that they have illegally spilled untreated sewage from dozens of treatment plants for years. Between 40 and 50 waste water treatment plants are currently operating in breach of their permits. Professor Hammond requested data on Welsh treatment plants, and found that 10 had been releasing untreated sewage at times when they should have been treating it. The data provided showed that Cardigan almost never treated the amount of sewage it was supposed to; it has illegally spilled untreated sewage for a cumulative total of 1,146 days, from the start of 2018 to the end of May 2023. What makes this crisis even worse is that Natural Resources Wales have known about it for eight years. In terms of Cardigan, Minister, NRW has issued enforcement notices, but no fines. As we have already stated, what is the point of enforcement if the companies just think, 'Oh, we can get a caution, we can get a warning', but there are no actual measures taken against them—no fines? NRW are now looking at data from 101—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Janet, you need to ask the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

—treatment plants. What measure will you take to address the major failure to publish the storm overflow report? It was due in March of this year. We cannot allow this pollution to continue. And given that the situation is worse in Wales, we should stop now blaming the UK Government.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, Janet, I can hear that you don't want to blame the UK Government, and of course you don't, because you support them. But there's no way around the fact that, without the infrastructure investment that's needed at Government level, we cannot solve this problem. The only way that Dŵr Cymru, or any other water company in the whole of the UK, can make investment is by adding money to bills; I'm sure you'd be the first to say that you don't want bills to be more expensive. Also, the issue at Cardigan is unresolvable without significant investment in the upgrading of the infrastructure—everybody agrees that.

On this specific matter, I know that NRW would rather see the investment go back into the site than on a fine. A fine will merely take more money away from Welsh Water so that they can't actually invest in the infrastructure that we need. So, I'm afraid, as usual, Janet, I suppose your heart must be in the right place, but your solution is both impractical and improbable.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

As we've already heard, there are growing concerns regarding Dŵr Cymru's compliance with their operational permits. The environmental implications of any lapses are significant, and public outrage on seeing raw sewage and effluent being pumped into our seas and rivers is completely understandable. It's essential therefore that we hold Dŵr Cymru accountable, and ensure that necessary measures are in place to protect our environment and the interests of the people of Wales. So, improvements to treatment plants are clearly necessary, as we've already heard, but they're also costly. However, it's crucial that any capital investments in water treatment infrastructure do not negatively impact customers—and that is something we've heard from the Minister already. We must strike a balance between safeguarding our environment and ensuring affordable access to clean water for all.

It's also a concern—again, we've heard this already—that NRW, which is the regulator in this instance, has very real limitations in resource and capacity to enforce compliance. Surely, it's our responsibility to ensure that NRW is equipped to protect our environment effectively. So, could the Minister clarify therefore how she intends to ensure that any capital investments by Dŵr Cymru will not lead to increased costs for customers? And also, how does she plan to empower NRW to take more decisive action against Dŵr Cymru when compliance issues arise? And what financial support, if any, can Welsh Government provide to enable Welsh Water to meet its environmental responsibilities?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you for that, Cefin. And again, I can hear your concern, and I share your concern. But there are some fundamental issues here with the way that the pricing structure for water works. I have a series of meetings later this week, and on into November, with both NRW and Dŵr Cymru, and indeed Hafren Dyfrdwy—together and separately—and also with Ofwat, in order to discuss this. But as the current structure of the water industry in the whole of the UK stands, the only way to put the investment in is to increase the bills of customers. So, we discuss that with them all the time. We make sure that there's a good social tariff in place for those who are unable to afford it. But unless you have a change in the Government, and the UK Government's understanding of how you would implement infrastructure improvement in the water industry, then I'm afraid the only way to implement infrastructure improvements by the water companies is from the money that they raise in revenue, which is, of course, the bills that we all pay.

We will be working, however, with NRW and Welsh Water to make sure that their pipeline of what they're going to do first, and what the severity is, and making sure that they address the worst first, is necessary. And I do think it's important to make sure that we are—. I absolutely understand the outrage; I absolutely share it myself, but I think it is important to make sure that we understand the effect of each of the spills and what can be done to overcome it.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

As you probably remember, I regularly raise concerns about sewerage in the River Tawe, where storm water mixes with raw sewage at the Trebanos treatment works and is then discharged into the River Tawe. I have said several times in the Senedd that in order to stop this, Welsh Water needs to be prosecuted and fined. There's no pain for putting raw sewage in it for them. I have read that NRW do not prosecute Welsh Water because of the threat of costs being awarded against them.

Will the Welsh Government underwrite the cost of NRW prosecuting Welsh Water? We cannot continue like this, having raw sewage in rivers where children are playing, where anglers are trying to catch fish. We just can't continue like this. They started putting it right in the twentieth century; why are we going backwards?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, Mike, I'm more than happy to bring forward—. Well, in fact, I'm due to do an oral statement on this, Diprwy Lywydd, and I'm sure Members will bring it up there, but I'm more than happy to circulate information on NRW's prosecution policies, how they work and where they prosecute.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

In this place, when we discuss issues like this, one of the privileges we have is the ability to make law. I note, Minister, that the Office for Environmental Protection in England has actually put on notice the Environment Agency, Ofwat and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for exactly what we're talking about now. And it's on an interesting point that they say:

'As a result of our investigations so far, we think there may have been misinterpretations of some key points of law. The core of the issue is that where we interpret the law to mean that untreated sewage discharges should generally be allowed only in exceptional circumstances, such as during unusually heavy rainfall, it appears that the public authorities may have interpreted the law differently, permitting such discharges to occur more often.'

This is not just a west Wales issue; it's an Ogmore issue, a Swansea issue, a UK issue as well.

WildFish, who I have a connection with as well, as does a colleague across the way there, because of our work on Atlantic salmon and other wild fish there, have also put the UK Government on notice. I wonder, Minister: what is your interpretation of the law on this? Is there wide interpretation of this, wider than it should be, and, if so, how do we make stricter the guidance on when discharges can actually happen?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, thank you, Huw. There are two issues here at play, in the legals of this, if you like. There are storm overflows with permits, and they have permit conditions, and there's an issue about whether they meet the criteria for the permit condition or not. And that's where the water company are required to investigate and improve the performance of a combined sewage overflow with permits. And the permits—you're quite right—say that they can only discharge at points where they're overwhelmed by the system, and there are specific things about each permit where they're allowed to do that.

So, there are issues where people are breaching the conditions of their permit. And, then, there are issues where there are combined sewage overflows that don't have a permit, because they're either not known or not monitored. And we have a very small number of those; I can provide the information to the Member if he wants to see it.

New CSOs in Wales are not created. We've made sustainable drainage systems mandatory on all new building developments—almost all new building developments, apart from very small ones. The whole point of that is to relieve pressure on the network by redirecting and slowing down the speed at which surface water enters the sewage system. Only yesterday, as part of the Welsh housing quality standard, I was informing the Senedd that we were putting water butts onto all the retrofitted social houses. There are 230,000 social houses in Wales, and I'd encourage everybody else to do it as well, by the way. That, of course, prevents all of the water hitting the roofs of the house from going into the sewage system, because it's run-off, with a large number of people who've done things like paved over their garden or their front garden. We all have a part to play in trying to minimise the amount of run-off from our roads systems that goes into our rivers.

And then the other thing to say as well is that I do not in any way take away from the impact of these spills into the rivers, because the impact is absolutely there. On nearly all of our special areas of conservation rivers, the highest polluter is agricultural run-off and not CSOs. And so there are a number of other things we need to do to make sure that our rivers can recover and one of them is addressing the pollution from agricultural run-off.

I have a summit at the end of November, in which we will be once again monitoring the action plan that we've agreed through the better river management groups and through the nutrient management boards. We have a whole system of things in place here in Wales to get ourselves into a better position. The First Minister has been very clear about this. We've asked each sector to stop pointing the finger at other sectors and to look to its own act and to make sure that it's doing everything they can. The water companies are both part of that summit and they will be being held to task there, and I have a series of meetings with them over the next four to six weeks. I don't think it's a misinterpretation. I think it's a creaking infrastructure incapable of dealing with the amount of stuff it's expected to deal with and with no proper strategic infrastructure investment plan to go with it.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

As somebody who's lived in Cardigan or Aberteifi, and who's family still does, I know the area really well, and I know also that it serves more than 7,000 of my constituents, and affects Afon Teifi and the Teifi bay, which are both SAC designated, and the illegal spills weren't one-off instances. And I want to thank Professor Hammond for the investigation that has brought all this to our attention, because without that we wouldn't be talking about it today.

I do recognise, Minister, and you've mentioned, that Dŵr Cymru are about to start a £20 million upgrade at Cardigan in 2025, and that is good news. But anyone who has lived in this area will know that you can smell the sewage if you walk along the river at the time that it is discharging. That is a fact. They will also know that individuals who have entered the water at the wrong time have also been extremely unwell. So I think there's a question here about individuals understanding when those discharges are being made into the river—not the sea at Poppit that you're talking about, which is the bar, but into the actual river—so that they don't get contaminated themselves. I think that's a key question.

You've already started talking about SuDS and surface water run-off. Quite clearly, there might be a greater understanding, I hope, that will have come out of all these discussions on flooding today, to stop the water in the very first instance from getting into the drainage system. When you're reviewing the SuDS, Minister, which you will—sustainable urban drainage systems—we know at the moment that there are caveats in there that have removed the small builders from their obligations. Would you have a look at that? Because in rural areas like the one we're talking about, it will be the case that most additionality that flows into the joint systems—water systems, sewage systems—that we're now talking about will come from those very small buildings that don't necessarily happen on a large scale in any case. Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Joyce. I just want to acknowledge your long-term campaign to prevent people paving over their front gardens in particular, and your campaign to bring awareness to people of what happens when they put impermeable covers on their front garden in particular, so that the run-off goes straight into the gullies, into the road, because those are where the biggest problems lie. As I know you're very well aware, I wrote out, at your request, to all local authorities in Wales just reminding them that, in point of fact, you need planning consent to pave over your front garden, and I really hope all Members will inform any constituent asking them, and perhaps put resources on their own websites and their own information pieces to tell people of the real damage that happens when people pave over their front garden and increase that run-off without thinking about it.

I certainly am reviewing the SuDS. We were severely criticised by the Conservatives and by the volume house builders when we brought SuDS in, but, actually, it was absolutely the right thing to do. And I think you're right; I think we should look at the exemption limit and whether we need to decrease that to make sure that people make sure that when they build houses, they deal with the run-off of water. And then, as I also said—and I know you're well aware, Joyce—we also need to tackle the other issues in our rivers, but we absolutely need to make sure that our water companies live up to their promise.

Just for Members' information, and this has clearly not been sufficient, but just for their information, in Dŵr Cymru's manifesto for rivers, they deliver over £840 million worth of improvements by 2025, and a further £1.4 billion by 2030, as part of their current price structure. We are, at the moment, in the current price review, where we are negotiating how much money they can put into investment, and where that money comes from, and this whole issue about bill payers paying. But without a very serious change of policy at UK Government level, there will be little we can do to stop bills increasing if we want the kind of level of infrastructure investment we actually need to prevent this kind of appalling pollution happening in our rivers.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister once again.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and first of all we have Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Perhaps Roy Francis isn't the first name that springs to mind when listing our rugby greats, yet he was Great Britain's first black player, and the first black head coach of a top-tier professional team. He was born in 1919, and initially started playing rugby union for Brynmawr. At 17, he was one of the first black rugby league players, when he switched codes to join Wigan. His playing career was interrupted by the war, where he served helping to rehabilitate wounded soldiers. It was here that he started to learn some of the coaching techniques that would define his legacy. At the end of the war, he rejoined Barrow, and his form saw him soon called up to the Great Britain squad. In 1947, he became Great Britain's first black player, scoring two tries against New Zealand. When he finally retired as a player in 1955, he was able to look back on a remarkable record of 229 tries in 356 games. After his playing career, he coached Hull to the championship title in 1956 and 1958, and Leeds to the Challenge Cup in 1968. After a spell in Australia, he returned to Leeds and won the premiership in 1974.

If his playing career impressed, then his coaching career influenced and shaped the game by using techniques well ahead of his time, with diet and filming games and training sessions being some of his innovations. He retired in 1977, and we lost him in 1989. More than 30 years on from his death, Roy Francis is now recognised with a statue in his home town. In 2018, he was inducted into the Welsh sports hall of fame. This follows the unveiling of a statue of fellow Welsh black rugby league players Billy Boston, Clive Sullivan, along with Gus Risman, in Cardiff, and it is a fitting way to mark Black History Month. Congratulations to everybody in Brynmawr who worked hard to remember Roy. Roy has come home.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Next month, the Newport Rising festival will be held to commemorate the anniversary of the Newport Chartist rising. It will remember the thousands of Chartists who marched through Newport on 4 November 1839 in an effort to demand better voting rights and to expand who was able to play a part in politics. At least 22 people lost their lives that day in the struggle for democratic reform, and though the vision they put forward for democracy, for community and greater equality was not achieved directly by the Chartist movement, it arguably laid the ground work for future suffrage. So, in tribute to this significant day in Welsh history, Newport Rising will be holding a festival for its sixth year. It is a non-profit festival delivered by a very small group and volunteers, and it will offer a range of activities, from music and film to talks and workshops. And, of course, the annual torchlit procession will follow the path the Chartists took through Newport.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

It is a celebration of Wales and our colourful history, of Newport and its communities, and it's an opportunity, perhaps, for all of us to think about some of the rights we are all too prone to take for granted. So, good luck to everyone who's going to be participating in this important event.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Today marks International Dwarfism Awareness Day. This is a wonderful opportunity to celebrate and to raise awareness of the challenges faced on a day-to-day basis. Today, people with dwarfism all over the world still face so many barriers that can stand in the way of opportunities and choices. People with dwarfism have every right to live as independently and confidently as anyone.

The twenty-fifth of October was chosen as a day for dwarfism awareness because it was the birthday of Billy Barty. He set up Little People of America in 1957, an organisation that supports people with dwarfism as well as raising awareness. Little People UK was then co-founded in January 2012 by actor Warwick Davis, his wife Samantha, and a group of individuals with the same goal: to offer friendship and support to people with dwarfism, their families, friends, and help build a positive future.

Newport's very own Danielle Webb, vice-chairperson of Little People UK, is a fantastic and inspirational campaigner. Danielle is working hard to share her experiences with people around her and in the community to make places more adapting. Danielle is also a two-time author of children's books, Mummy There's a New Girl and Short Perspectives, encouraging schoolchildren to promote diversity and disability awareness within children's literature and education. I'm honoured to be sponsoring Wales's first official Dwarfism Awareness Day event at the Senedd this evening, with the help of the wonderful Danielle Webb. I hope this evening in the Senedd we can all listen and learn from little people, to understand what we need to break down barriers that all too often prevent them from achieving their full potential.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The Holodomor

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on the Holodomor, and I call on Alun Davies to move the motion.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The memory of the Holodomor resonates down the years, as we remember Soviet violence 90 years ago and witness the violence of Russian aggression today. This debate is timely, because it isn't simply a historical exercise.

The Holodomor is a Ukrainian word that means to inflict death by hunger. Today, we use it to mean the entire Stalinist campaign to eliminate the Ukrainian nation, which culminated in the forced famine of 1932 and 1933, which killed millions of Ukrainians. The exact number of people lost, of course, is not known, because the Soviet Union refused to allow the reporting of the famine, but it's estimated that 7 million, and may be as many as 10 million, people died in Ukraine, with many more deaths in the neighbouring Soviet states. And let us be absolutely clear, Deputy Presiding Officer, this was not a natural disaster, nor was it an act of God and nor was it a misfortune. It was a deliberate policy designed to eliminate the Ukrainian rural population, who were the embodiment and spirit of Ukrainian culture and nationhood.

It remains Ukraine's silent massacre—a horrific man-made disaster on an unimaginable scale, brought about by Soviet policies. At the height of the famine, 25,000 people died every day of starvation, including children too small to feed themselves. Some people tried to commit suicide to escape the horror of starving to death. Those who refused to steal or leave died of hunger. Those who tried to steal were shot. Those who tried to leave were returned to their villages to face the same impossible choices again. Villagers turned to cannibalism to survive. The dead were unburied and the sick untended. These are difficult subjects to discuss and difficult things to hear, but it is crucial that we appreciate and understand the scale of the suffering.

The main goal of the artificial famine was to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from vast areas of Ukraine. And let us be in no doubt, Deputy Presiding Officer, this was genocide.

In 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust, the United Nations genocide convention was adopted, and it defined genocide as an act committed with the intent to destroy in whole, or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Whatever the definition adopted, this reaches the threshold for genocide, and we need to say that and we need to say it clearly from this Parliament this afternoon. As with the war today, there was a clear perpetrator behind the famine—Stalin yesterday and Putin today. Stalin's motivation was to transform and to mould the Ukrainian nation in his own image at any cost, and it is mirrored in Putin's warped imperialistic world view today.

Putin's misguided and perverse attempts to wipe Ukrainian identity from the world are the most recent manifestations of Russia's penchant for interference, subjugation, war and atrocity. Russian attacks on Ukrainian nationhood and identity continue to take place today. We continue to see those attacks on the Ukrainian nation. And we should remember that since 2014, thousands have been killed by Putin's forces. Since the full-scale invasion, over 50 per cent of Ukraine's pre-war population—21 million—have needed humanitarian assistance either inside or outside Ukraine. We should remember the scale of the impact of this on people, on communities, on the people of Ukraine, but also recognise how people across the world have reached out to Ukraine in order to support them at this time. Russian forces have attacked Ukrainian hospitals, schools and energy supplies, leaving cities in ruins and people running for their lives. It draws clear parallels with the 1930s in terms of the scale of the impact and the effect it's had on the human population.

This debate carries particular weight this afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer, because much of what we know is because of the bravery of one Welshman, Gareth Jones. Gareth Jones defied Soviet attempts to censor him and reported the truth of what was happening to millions. The Kremlin, of course, continued to deny the existence of the famine, and yet the mendacious campaign that tried to silence Gareth could not. We're grateful to the journalist Martin Shipton for writing about Gareth's bravery and about the role that Gareth played in bringing this news to the world. We're grateful also to those who have remembered Gareth, where a plaque in his memory was unveiled in Kiyv earlier this autumn.

I'm proud that the Welsh Government—. And I thank the Government of Wales for continuing to support the work to remember what is happening in Ukraine. I'm proud of the leadership of Mick Antoniw, who has led the Welsh Government and this Parliament so often over the last few months and years in supporting and standing up for the people of Ukraine. I'm proud also of Members on all sides of this Chamber who have united, put party politics and party differences to one side, to stand up for the people of Ukraine. It is important, because if we do not confront and accept the tragedies of history, we are doomed to repeat them. Throughout its history, Ukraine has been in a fight for its survival against Russia. There is a pattern of behaviour where Russia has tried to simply wipe out Ukraine as a nation.

Deputy Presiding Officer, it tried to do it 90 years ago. It is trying to do the same today. Unless we understand and appreciate the historical context, we do not understand the significance of what is happening today. I know the Welsh Government will continue to show unwavering solidarity with the people of Ukraine in remembering this tragedy, and will continue to stand squarely behind Ukraine in its defence of its sovereignty and its people's rights. When I travel to Ukraine tomorrow, I travel with the goodwill of Members on all sides of this Chamber, and from all communities of this country. The people of Ukraine recognise and are grateful to all of us for that support and for that solidarity. In months and years to come, that will be tested and needed again, and I'm absolutely confident that Members on all sides of this Chamber will not be found wanting. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

May I thank Alun Davies for introducing this debate—I was pleased to co-submit—but also for the way he opened the debate today? It is extremely important, as you have outlined, that we do not only remember, but also, one would hope, relearn lessons from the past. But unfortunately, that isn’t happening, and that’s why we’ve seen the situation develop as it has.

Like you, I think it’s important that we do use the appropriate word, ‘genocide’, because that is what this was. And it’s important that Parliaments such as this Parliament reflect on the importance of political choices and decisions, and what that means for individuals. Because we see time and time again that people, unfortunately, don’t learn the lessons of history. We can condemn the past, but we will be judged on what happens in the present.

One of the things that I reflected on in speaking to Sioned Williams earlier on was that we of course recognise the bravery of Gareth Jones, and the fact that he died so young because of his courage, and that he was a single voice, and the challenges that he would have faced in getting the story out at the time, and then we compare that with the present, where you can go on social media and see in seconds, or even see a live stream, of events as they happen. And you’d like to think that if people had known, then things would have been different. It’s something that you can reflect on when you do learn about history in school. What would have happened if people were aware? What would we have done? Well, that’s a question that we should all reflect on now, and I think that the fact that we are having this discussion about something that happened 90 years ago, but linking it to the present, is extremely important. Because the current atrocities have these far deeper roots, and that’s why we have sought to ensure that history is reflected in the curriculum and so on, because you are hoping for a better future. You would hope that such atrocities wouldn’t happen, but they do.

In terms of truth, one of the things that I would hope we could do is to continue to challenge what’s happening in Ukraine now, to make that connection with genocide, but also to ensure that we are a consistent voice for those people who continue to suffer, of course, with so many having made their homes here in Wales, not knowing what’s happened to their loved ones. So, I am pleased that we are taking this time to reflect this afternoon, because we are reflecting on these issues, but I also hope that we are thinking about everyone who continues to suffer because of political choices taken across the globe, and that today we should be certain that we should continue to listen, continue to remember, and to use our international voice to insist on a better future for everyone.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you to Alun Davies, Darren Millar and Heledd Fychan for tabling this important debate on behalf of all of the main political parties represented at the Senedd. I believe that the cross-party nature of this debate demonstrates our unanimous support for the people of Ukraine, and their resilience in the face of Russia’s invasion.

On the fourth Saturday of every November, the Holodomor is remembered internationally, and the Welsh Government has committed to raising awareness of the Holodomor, to remember the victims and to stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Ukraine, who have now sought sanctuary in Wales. Last November, we marked 90 years since the Holodomor unfolded in Ukraine with an event in Alexandra Gardens in Cardiff, led by the Reverend Canon Stewart Lisk. We remembered those who had suffered as a result of the previous actions of a government in Moskva.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

This year we have organised an event here at the Senedd on 25 November, kindly sponsored by my fellow Member Alun Davies. The event will include participation from the First Minister, Welsh Government Ministers, local government, Ukrainian and Welsh religious leaders, the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain, and a representative of the embassy of Ukraine. The event will be attended by many of our Ukrainian guests, who have taken sanctuary in Wales because of the war. We will listen to the hauntingly beautiful sounds of bandura players, Ukraine's national instrument. We will lay wreaths and sheaves of wheat to remind us of the wheat stolen then by Stalin's cadres and today stolen by Putin's invaders. We will then stand in silence for a period of reflection to remember the millions of victims of Stalin's artificial famine.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Putin's current atrocities in Ukraine are part of a long-term pattern of Russian oppression of Ukraine, stretching back many decades and, indeed, centuries. Marking Holodomor in this way shines a light on this. The event will provide opportunity to reaffirm our solidarity with Ukraine and to pay tribute to the bravery of the Ukrainian people. We will also be highlighting Holodomor remembrance through our social media channels and in our regular communications with guests and hosts across Wales to raise awareness.

The Holodomor—a man-made famine that caused millions to die—was bravely exposed to the world, in part, by Welsh journalist Gareth Jones. It was an act of genocide, which the motion recognises.

The Holodomor was an act of genocide. Голодомор був актом геноциду.

This motion, unequivocally on behalf of the people of Wales, through this Parliament, declares Holodomor an act of genocide. Ця ініціатива однозначно від імені народу Уельсу через цей парламент проголошує Голодомор актом геноциду.

The term 'genocide' was created by Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin, who survived the Holocaust, and he was responsible for the introduction and eventual adoption by the United Nations of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide—an international treaty that criminalises genocide and obligates state parties to pursue the enforcement of its prohibition. It was the first legal instrument to codify genocide as a crime, and the first human rights treaty unanimously adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948, during the third session of the United Nations General Assembly. The convention entered into force on 12 January 1951, and it has 152 state parties as of 2022.

Lemkin was clear that what we now describe as the Holodomor was an intentional programme of starvation—the third prong of Soviet Russification of Ukraine. In 1953, in a speech given in New York City, Lemkin described the Holodomor as one part of perhaps the

'classic example of Soviet genocide, the longest and most extensive experiment in Russification, namely the extermination of the Ukrainian nation'.

Going on to point out that the Ukrainian is not and has never been a Russian.

Welsh journalist Gareth Jones saw the suffering in Ukraine and told the truth about the horror he found. He was one of the few western journalists who reported on the famine in Ukraine and its causes, and is still considered a hero in Ukraine. I was pleased to see Gareth being remembered and honoured in his home town of Barry with the unveiling of a memorial plaque in his honour. This is one of four plaques that have been unveiled in his honour, with others in Aberystwyth, Milan and only several weeks ago, at a ceremony in the national library in Kyiv. We will be commemorating Gareth Jones and the importance of his work at the event at the Senedd next month. And whilst we honour the resilience and courage of the Ukrainian people in the face of Putin's aggression, we also affirm our commitment to help Ukrainians here in Wales to record their knowledge of war crimes committed in more recent times.

Each of us has been shocked by the brutality of what we have seen and heard from Ukraine since the large-scale invasion began. Since February last year, thousands have been killed and millions more forced to seek refuge. Welsh Government condemns this war, and we, as a nation, will continue to stand against brutality and in solidarity with those who need us.

Before this conflict, Wales was home to around 500 Ukrainians. We have now welcomed more than 7,000 people fleeing Ukraine. We know those who arrive here in Wales seeking a safe place to stay need support. Many have settled into our Welsh communities and become our friends, our colleagues, our schoolmates, and in some cases, more like our family. We have welcomed them and learned from their experience to strengthen our communities. This response has again shown the compassion across Wales. The people of Wales have demonstrated that they will step up and answer the call to participate in the nation of sanctuary. And again, I say 'thank you' to the people of Wales for their generosity.

We are all aware of the longstanding connection between Ukraine and Wales, and I am extremely proud of how we continue to stand against these barbaric acts and show unwavering generosity. So, I know that all Members will join me in expressing Welsh solidarity with all Ukrainians on the anniversary of Holodomor. Wales is a nation of sanctuary, a nation of peace. Слава Україні! Героям слава! Перемога!

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I also start by paying tribute to the work of Mick Antoniw—not only for his role here in the Welsh Government and the Welsh Parliament, but for the leading role that he is playing in ensuring that the voice of the people of Ukraine is heard across this nation? Can I also thank as well my colleagues Heledd Fychan and Alun Davies for the ability to co-table this important motion today?

I know that Alun has visited Ukraine on a number of occasions. I've visited it once since the start of the Russian invasion, and I know how much those visits are appreciated by the people of Ukraine. Of course, the establishment of the new cross-party group for friends of Ukraine, I think, will help once again to show the solidarity that there is in this Chamber with those people, who are in the midst of a crisis. We need to support them as much as we can.

So, look, this is a very important debate. For too long, the Holodomor has been overlooked. It has been overlooked in the annals of human suffering and injustice. Therefore, I stand shoulder to shoulder with everybody in this Chamber and with the people of Ukraine in calling for the formal recognition by this Welsh Parliament of the Holodomor as a genocide.

We've heard already that these are events that took place 90 years ago, the scale of which it is impossible to fathom. But to think that up to two or even three times the population of Wales died as a result of a man-made famine, which was an intentional policy of the then Soviet Government, under Stalin, is absolutely awful.

We know that Holodomor does mean 'death by hunger' in Ukrainian, and it was good to hear the Ukrainian tongue used in the Chamber today. But that forced starvation of millions of people cannot go ignored any longer. We know that grain and food were seized from Ukrainian households, leaving them with absolutely nothing to eat. There was forced migration that took place as well. Millions of men, women and children perishing from starvation, and some resorting to the horror of cannibalising their own family members in their desperation to survive.

So, the intention of those policies under Stalin was clear: it was to break the spirit of the people of Ukraine and to suppress any form of resistance, as well as undermining their national identity. It was a systemic and calculated effort to eliminate a huge portion of the Ukrainian population. And that, my dear friends, is genocide—plain and simple, it is genocide.

And the evidence supporting the recognition of the Holodomor as a genocide is overwhelming. Not only do we have Gareth Jones’s account of what was going on—and it’s wonderful that we're paying tribute to him in the Chamber today, and that his legacy in exposing the horror of the Holodomor to the world is not going to be forgotten—but we know from accounts of survivors, international observers, historical records; they all mount up to a chilling picture of the suffering that was being endured by Ukrainians during this period. There are photographs, there are letters, there are official documents, all pointing to the deliberate nature of these atrocities.

And that's why I think it is absolutely essential that we stand together this afternoon in order to make this formal declaration in the Welsh Parliament that the Holodomor was, indeed, a genocide. In doing so, it will serve as a powerful reminder, not only of the human capacity for cruelty and the importance of acknowledging past wrongs, but it will honour the memory of those millions of men, women and children who perished during this very dark chapter of Ukrainian history, giving them the recognition that they deserve.

We know also, of course, that a number of nations and Parliaments have already recognised the Holodomor as a genocide, including the United States, Canada, Australia and many eastern European nations, and, I was pleased to note, earlier this year, even the House of Commons, in spite of the UK Government's position on the matter previously, also declared the Holodomor to be a genocide. And this is why it's very important for us to do the same, because we see Ukraine, at the moment, struggling—struggling to survive against an illegal invasion by Vladimir Putin and Russia, repeating this cycle of oppression of its smaller neighbour, Ukraine. And so I'm proud to stand in this Senedd today encouraging all of you to stand by the statement in this motion, no matter what your political flavour is, no matter whether you're in Government or not in Government, so that we declare this to be what it is—a genocide—and we pay tribute to Gareth Jones and his legacy. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: A&E department performance data

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, A&E department performance data. I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar. This is a very important debate today, because our accident and emergency departments are the front line, the first point of contact, for many individuals facing emergencies, injuries and life-threatening conditions. Therefore, the accuracy and reliability of the data collected and reported on the length of time that people are waiting in our A&E departments is crucial, not only for the individual patient, because we know that waiting longer times in emergency departments is directly related to worse patient outcomes, but also for the entire healthcare system. Having accurate A&E data is vitally important, because it allows managers and health professionals to plan for periods of winter pressures.

Now, I would have thought that what I've said is fairly obvious, and I would have thought that we could all agree on that. But that doesn't seem to be the case, because the findings of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine demonstrate and tell us that the data published is misleading, as published data is not reflective of the scale of long waits taking place in our A&E departments. So, our motion today points out the failings to capture data in a way that allows healthcare professionals to properly predict pressures.

We won't be supporting the Government's amendment today. The Government's amendment more or less deletes our entire motion. The Government amendment:

'Notes the assurance from health boards that emergency department data have been reported in line with Welsh Government guidance'.

The Minister is nodding. I agree. But the Government is missing the point. The fact is that published emergency department performance data does not reflect the length of time that people are waiting in A&E departments, and that recording patients' data where a breach exemption has been applied in the wait-for-fewer-than-four-hours category misrepresents the true picture when it comes to A&E performance and waiting time. Now, the Welsh Government are also completely missing the point of the royal college's concerns and recommendations, or perhaps they're deliberately doing so. Rather than listening to the points being made—and I would have thought that this would be the right response for the Government, to listen to the concerns and address them—the Government seem to have dug their heels in and claimed that everyone has got this wrong. The royal colleges have got this wrong, the Welsh Conservatives have got this wrong, Plaid Cymru have got this wrong, the BBC, who have independently verified this position, have got it—we're all wrong and we should stop debating and asking questions on this topic.

Point 3 of our motion today is calling for the Welsh Government to

'explain why the performance data in responses provided by Welsh local health boards to the Royal College...and emergency department performance data published by the Welsh Government appears to be different'.

The question has not been addressed by the Government despite me asking the Minister on a number of occasions.

So, what did the FOI requests tell us? They told us that in the first six months of 2023 there were 45,757 patients who were classified as breach exemptions, and, therefore, their true length of stay in A&E departments had not been recorded, included or reflected in the official performance data. Their attendance and waits are recorded in—. So, this is important: their attendance and waits are recorded in the data, but in the fewer than four hours category, when, in reality, they would have been there much longer. Since January 2012, the number of people who have been misrepresented in this way, according to the royal college analysis, which I would agree with, is 673,000 patients.

Now, in order to see the full picture of what we are facing across Wales, the royal college has had to submit FOIs. This is staggering. Doctors submitting FOIs to find out the true position of the position of A&E departments and how long people are waiting, and then doing so in order to plan themselves. So, I hope the Minister will respond in this debate today and explain the performance data in her response provided by Welsh local health boards to the royal college under the FOI and the emergency performance data published by the Welsh Government—explain why these figures are so different.

I want to address Plaid Cymru's amendments today, which I believe add to our motion, and it is correct that four fifths of clinical leads and consultants surveyed by the royal college have a negative view of the breach exemptions policy, and the Welsh Government should, of course, listen to the health professionals. So, Welsh Conservatives will be supporting Plaid's amendment 3 as well. I think that amendment is the amendment that deletes part of our motion; I would have preferred it had you added to our motion, but the points that you make are points that I would agree with, so we'll be supporting those today as well. The Welsh Government should rescind the breach exemptions policy in line with the wishes of the royal college, or at least publish the two figures so we can see the true position.

The Minister has stated that health boards are compliant with the guidance issued in 2011, and this was never in contention, and this is beside the point. The royal college has stated explicitly that the policy is indeed being followed correctly. I agree the policy is being followed correctly—[Interruption.] The problem is, Minister, that the policy itself, of course, is wrong.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Why?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

'Why?' I hear from another position. 'Why is the policy wrong?' I hear. It was a slight intervention, I think, Presiding Officer, but 'why?' It's wrong because of this: the position has changed. The policy's remained there for 10 years, but the position, Jenny, is very different to the position 10 years ago. Our A&E departments are now at an emergency position. They're in crisis, and this is not the position that was there 10 years ago.

The policy is being applied very differently between health boards. This is the other issue. So, there is human discretion being used. In order to get a true position of how long people are waiting in health boards, it's very difficult to know between hospital and hospital and health board and health board. Also, Jenny, it’s taking up a huge amount of admin time every week when clinical staff or admin staff have to go through and effectively remove the amount of time people are waiting in A&E in order to have those statistics, that data published; time that I think could be better spent. I suppose the big question is: who would not want to have the accurate position of how long people are waiting in A&E? This isn’t good for patients, it’s not what clinicians want, so the only people I would suggest who may not want to have the true position of A&E waiting times if they are poorer is indeed the Government.

So, this is something that has not just come about now; this hasn’t just come back to light in the last week or so; this is something that the royal college have been raising with the Minister in meetings and correspondence for some time, and the Government has failed to adequately address the situation over a period of time. So, sadly, we need to get to a position where current and accurate information is being provided in terms of what is happening in our A&E departments.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the amendments and thank Russell George and the Conservatives for the opportunity to contribute to this debate.