Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 10 May 2023

282 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon and welcome, all, to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question this afternoon is from Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

1. What discussions has the Minister had with Newport City Council regarding its ability to deliver its statutory services? OQ59467

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I meet regularly with council leaders, collectively and individually, to discuss a wide range of matters, including the impact of the current economic challenges on service delivery.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Waste collection is a statutory service and, at the moment, it's a very big talking point for everyone in Newport. I'm sure that you're well aware of the city council's plan to introduce three-weekly black bin collections. This decision has caused a huge uproar within residents across the city, and, I must admit, I'm even one of them as well. There are concerns that this move will lead to more fly-tipping, especially as the bins we've all got are, indeed, far too small, having had the smaller bins given to us only a few years ago. It's shameful that the people of Newport are being forced to go along with this drastic cut in services whilst at the same time seeing their council tax bills rocket. Torfaen council has been considering a similar move but have thankfully seen the light, and dropped the plans. Minister, do you agree with me that Newport City Council should scrap these plans, and will you call on them to just do that, because pushing ahead with this will be a very bitter pill for the residents to swallow?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I would say that waste collection in Newport is a matter for Newport council. But I think that the difficult choices that are being presented to local government have to be seen very much in the context of the current situation whereby, obviously, local authorities are being hit by the impacts of inflation, but also seeing the impact, of course, of the ongoing tale of austerity, which is having an impact on the budgets available to local authorities. That said, we have done our very, very best here in the Welsh Government to provide local government with the best possible settlement. Local authorities across Wales together will receive £5.5 billion from the Welsh Government in core revenue funding and non-domestic rates to deliver on their key services. In Newport, they'll receive £289.5 million through the local government settlement to deliver their statutory and non-statutory services. That's an 8.9 per cent increase on last year. But, that said, I do understand that it still presents leaders with very difficult choices.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, education is a vital statutory responsibility of local authorities—vital for the future of our children, communities and countries. Newport City Council is the only local authority in south-east Wales without a single school in special measures. So, will you join me in congratulating the city council, the teachers, teaching assistants, headteachers and entire school support staff in working so hard for our children, young people and communities?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Llywydd, I'm always delighted to recognise good work, so I would definitely join John Griffiths in extending our congratulations and our appreciation to the council, and also to the schools, the teachers, and the wider schools family, and also of course to those pupils themselves, who are striving every day to achieve the best they can.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

2. What actions has the Welsh Government taken to ensure the fair distribution of funding for local authorities? OQ59483

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I ensure fair funding for all local authorities in Wales by prioritising health and local government services in budget decisions, and through a transparent, equitable and jointly produced distribution formula with our local government partners.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that response, Minister. Over the last budget period, there has been plenty of debate surrounding the issue of funding for local authorities, with many of us arguing that something needs to be done to create a fairer and more sustainable system. Many feel the current system is no longer fit for purpose. As I'm sure you would agree, currently, the system has led to a situation where it rewards some councils so much more than others, enabling huge reserves to build whilst other councils struggle to meet their statutory functions. There is clearly something wrong when we see usable reserves build to £2.75 billion. Something needs to be done to fix this problem. Minister, can you give assurances that the distribution sub-group is looking into things, and have you spoken with the Welsh Local Government Association leaders to consider an independent analysis of the funding formula ahead of next year's budget round? Has the Welsh Government listened to the concerns made in this Chamber, or are we being ignored?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful to the Member for the question, but I would take issue with the suggestion that the funding formula in any way rewards some councils, because it's definitely the case that there's no evidence that any authority or particular geographical or social area in Wales is being disadvantaged through the formula. In fact, the formula takes account of both sparsity and dispersion, as well as deprivation. So, it's very much a—[Interruption.] Llywydd, I've got a Member talking in my ear constantly; it's very difficult to concentrate.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Yes, if you can try and ignore her, I'd advise that.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I do my best most of the time. It's more difficult today. [Laughter.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Nothing personal to the Member. [Laughter.]

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

All right. So, the point I'm trying to make about the distribution sub-group is that the formula is not set in stone. It's constantly evolving and, even in this year's updates, there have been several changes. For example, officials are looking at the implications of updating the sparsity and dispersion measures. They are currently based on the previous census. We have new census information now, which will be incorporated into that. And, actually, routinely, on an annual basis, the distribution sub-group factors in a wide range of data—72 per cent of it is updated annually. That includes things such as population data, but also things such as road lengths, street lighting, council tax reduction scheme case loads, planning applications, trading premises, and even the number of ships arriving in ports. So, a wide, wide range of data is looked at, and the distribution sub-group is constantly updating that.

What I would say is that we do take a different approach here to that across the border in England. The approach in England has been to cut the value of the revenue support grant, and that forces councils, then, of course, to rely on business rates and council tax income without reviewing the relative needs and resources of authorities in England. And the Institute for Fiscal Studies has noted that where needs assessments are used in England, they actually rely on data that is at least 10 years and, in most cases, 20 years old. And, as I say, the vast majority of our data is updated on an annual basis.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

There will be always concerns that Welsh Government support for local authorities is not fairly provided. There is a belief that some local authorities do not get a fair share. Although, I must admit, no-one has actually complained that they receive too much. [Laughter.] Can I ask the Minister to publish the standard spending assessments and the aggregated external finance calculations—not just the final total, but the calculations, which you must have? Can you publish them, so that everybody can see how they get to that final total, or we'll keep on having Members, including Peter Fox, I would imagine, saying, 'We've been unfairly treated in Monmouth'?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, of course, Monmouth had the highest increase of all local authorities in this financial year, and, again, that is a factor of the formula that is set in place to ensure that there is funding that is fair across Wales. But, absolutely, I'm committed to improving the clarity and the transparency of the information that we publish. So, in addition to the local government finance report, which is laid before the Senedd, and sets out the basis of the calculations, we also publish the Green Book, and, from this current settlement forward, the Green Book is being presented in a more accessible format to make the information clearer to readers. It provides information on the calculation of the SSA, as well as providing the indicator values and the weightings used to calculate each of the 55 service indicator-based assessments. So, we're certainly moving forward on this agenda. I've written recently to the Finance Committee on that, and I know the Finance Committee is taking a strong interest in it. Officials routinely do a session ahead of the local government settlement for the local government committee, but I've suggested that, in future, it might be something that the Finance Committee might be interested in engaging in as well. But, as I say, I'm committed to constantly improving the transparency and volume of data that we provide.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Bridgend and Rhondda Cynon Taf continue to be home to some of the most deprived areas in Wales, based on the Welsh index of multiple deprivation. There are significant differences in life expectancy between the most and the least deprived areas. There's been an increase in the amount of under-18s in persistent poverty over recent years. Access to public transport is as much a problem in the upper Valleys as it is in mid and rural west Wales. There's an increasing demand for social housing, and an increase in applications of homelessness. And some still face challenges of being long-term out of work, and others of a lack of basic employment skills. Now, both RCT and Bridgend have actions in place tackling these pernicious and deep-seated problems, which were entrenched in the period of Conservative de-industrialisation and pit closures of the Thatcher years, and they've been exacerbated by this long tale of austerity since 2010. We need to keep the focus on these communities. So, Minister, in respect of the fair distribution of funding for local authorities, would you ensure that levels of deprivation, and the challenges of turning around generational embedded challenges that affect so many, reflect these realities for these communities and individuals, and for the local authorities and voluntary organisations on which they depend?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm absolutely committed to ensuring that the formula continues to recognise those indicators that recognise the difficulties that certain communities face, and that will continue to be the case, moving forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. As you know, Minister, the incredibly high cost in childcare is forcing many people in Wales, particularly women, out of the jobs market. I know many in Wales are incredibly disappointed that the Labour administration here is not following in the footsteps of the UK Conservative Government and expanding childcare to include all children aged nine months and older. Your co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru does offer a much less generous scheme, but even that seems to have stalled. Concerningly, last month, a Welsh Government Minister said that your flagship childcare policy would not happen if more nursery workers could not be recruited, and responsibility lies directly at the feet of Welsh Government. Minister, what financial commitments is the Welsh Government making in order to attract more staff to the childcare sector? And when can parents of children under the age of three expect to be listened to?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I would suggest that this is a question that should be directed to the Minister with responsibility for childcare, but I'm very happy to provide some further information, particularly in the context of the spring statement. The Welsh Government is already spending over £100 million a year delivering on our very ambitious childcare commitment, which we have as part of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and, as a result of that, people across Wales do not need to be disappointed, because, today, they have access to a better and more generous offer here in Wales than is available to people across the border in England. What the UK Government has set out is an end goal that they want to get to after the next general election. I think the UK Government is setting out plans that it has absolutely no intention in reality of delivering. And let's look at how slowly the UK Government intends to make progress. So, as I say, we're already spending £100 million a year on our childcare pledge, which is already more generous, but the UK Government in this financial year has only provided us with £12 million of consequential funding. So, that does suggest that the UK Government is in no rush to make any progress at all on its particular pledge, and I think that that has to be considered as well. We're already streets ahead. The UK Government is playing catch-up and we're already spending much, much more than we have in consequential funding. The UK Government clearly doesn't intend to move very quickly on this.

The point, I think, that the Member raises about recruitment into the sector is a really important one. And one of the reasons why the UK Government will be so slow in rolling out its pledge is because it takes a long time to recruit people into the sector, to make sure that premises are appropriate for childcare settings and so on. So, I think that we are, as I say, already streets ahead, and I would be very, very surprised to see any rapid progress from the UK Government across the border.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Minister, I think there are many parents of very young children who disagree or can't see or have no hope that these things might happen, and it clearly is a finance brief, because we need to identify moneys to be able to put the staff in place to roll this out, and I hope there's a coherent strategy to do that.

Minister, time and time again we have seen the effects that years of Labour underfunding has had on our NHS. As we all know, Welsh Government receives £1.20 for every £1 spent on health in England, but, according to the Auditor General for Wales, only £1.05 of it goes to the Welsh NHS. This failure to fund this vital public service has left almost a quarter of our Welsh people on an NHS waiting list and created huge concern and worry. We all know there is a long list of struggling specialisms, such as lung disease and specialist cancer treatment, in our NHS that urgently require Welsh Government funding to provide the essential services they offer, and we, as elected representatives, hear calls from different organisations regularly, as you will know. So, Minister, what I want to know is how you are allocating funds towards these different specialist services. How do you use the wealth of health data in Wales, some of which is amongst the best in Wales? Is there a thoughtful strategy or is it a case of who shouts loudest?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, Llywydd, again, we have a question that is probably better directed at the health Minister, whose responsibility it is to direct her budget at those services that are going to have the most beneficial impact on the health of people in Wales. But to this point about Wales receiving more money per head than is the case across the border, well, of course, that's not the case across all of England, because, of course, there will be areas in England that require greater levels of funding because they have similar characteristics to those that we have in Wales. And some of the reasons why we have that additional funding are because we have a dispersed settlement pattern here in Wales and our demographics are different, and both of those things, as we've talked about in the context of the local government settlement, increase the cost of delivering public services.

So, there are 6.7 miles of road for every 1,000 people in Wales and 3.4 miles in England. So, there are almost twice as many roads for us just to maintain per head of population here in Wales than across the border. Obviously, that costs us more, and a dispersed population means that we have a greater number of smaller schools. Obviously, there is a higher cost to providing education in Wales. And, as colleagues will know, we have an older population here in Wales with higher levels of sickness and disability and, inevitably, of course, the cost of providing care to those people is higher here than it is across the border. So, there are very good, genuine reasons why Wales is funded in the way it is and I'm very glad that the First Minister was able to negotiate that as part of our settlement when he was in the finance role.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for that, Minister. Another pressing issue is that Wales is falling behind much of the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of business support. Minister, we all know the stats: businesses in Wales face the highest business rates in Great Britain, while workers take home the lowest pay in the United Kingdom—an astonishing £3,000 less than their counterparts across the border.

Over the last few years, we've heard a lot of talk about what could be done to support businesses further in Wales, but very little coming forward. This uncertainty is concerning for businesses that need certainty and consistency. They need to know that the Welsh Government has their back. Unfortunately, it doesn't feel that way currently. This uncertainty, combined with the looming threat of stealth taxes, such as the tourism tax on our valuable tourism sector, could prove incredibly damaging to the overall business landscape in Wales, with many tourism businesses on the Welsh border moving across to England. Minister, do you agree with me that businesses in Wales need action, not lip service, in order to cultivate a business environment for growth? And how does the Minister think that increasing burdens and uncertainty on businesses will enable them to grow and reach their full potential?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm not sure where this uncertainty comes from because the Welsh Government has tabled its budget for this financial year and it was approved already by this Senedd, so, there shouldn't be any uncertainty, as it's a very, very significant and generous level of support that we're providing to businesses.

So, we have our retail, leisure and hospitality rates relief, providing over £140 million of non-domestic rates relief for businesses in those sectors, and eligible ratepayers here will receive 75 per cent non-domestic rates relief for the duration of 2023-24. And that, of course, costs us more to deliver here in Wales, because of the nature of our tax base. So, that's an example, again, where it costs us more to deliver things in Wales. But I will say that we didn't get an extra penny to recognise that from the UK Government.

And we've introduced a transitional rates relief scheme here, which is a fair and simple scheme. And, again, our scheme here is more appropriate to the businesses that we have here in Wales—it's been warmly welcomed—so, there shouldn't be any confusion there. And our permanent small business rates relief scheme again is in place this year—it's not going anywhere, so, I don't know why there should be any confusion in that sense.

We have set out a programme of reform, but, again, this is responding to things that businesses tell us that they want. So, the consultation covered a wide range of proposed changes to the non-domestic rates system, including more frequent valuations—that's something that businesses have called for; the potential to vary the multiplier; improved information flows—that has to be good news; as well as reviewing the existing package of relief and exemptions for the future and addressing issues of fraud and avoidance. So, these are things that we're doing in partnership with businesses across Wales and there really shouldn't be any confusion as to what those plans are, because they're being developed very much in partnership.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Minister, the Senedd recently, of course, united behind a Plaid Cymru motion to call for a fair share of funding to come to Wales as a result of expenditure on HS2 in England. Now, that has led to additional funding for Scotland; it led to additional funding for Northern Ireland, but of course, Wales is treated differently. There is united support from this Senedd, and that shows that that feeling of injustice is felt across the parties in the Siambr. May I ask, therefore, because of the fiscal implications that are significant for us in Wales, what case have you made to the UK Government to try to convince them to treat Wales equally, alongside the other nations of the UK? And has the Welsh Government put forward any kind of formal challenge against the decision, this unfair decision by UK Government?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, I’ve raised this on numerous occasions with numerous Chief Secretaries to the Treasury over the years in terms of the fact that HS2 is self-evidently not an England-and-Wales project, and it becomes less so all the time, in terms of the ambitions for HS2. So, I’ve set out that alongside all of the other concerns we have about the neglect by the UK Government of investment in their rail responsibilities here in Wales over many years.

So, those discussions, as I say, are ongoing. It’s something we will continue, of course, to pursue. The UK Government Treasury’s own analysis shows that, actually, it will have a disbenefit to Wales, particularly south-west Wales, drawing business and investment away from that area, so clearly, all of the arguments are there, and I’m pleased that we have cross-party consensus on that matter in the Senedd.

In terms of a formal complaint, if you like, I know that the Member’s referring to the inter-governmental resolution process when we do have those disputes, so no, we have not launched a formal dispute resolution yet. Obviously, those things are lengthy things to enter into, and actually, we have a rather large platter of things to look at in terms of which areas we would want to raise that particular formal dispute on, so I think that when we do, it has to be in a considered way, and my view would be that we’d have to get that particular item that we can get the maximum from, both in terms of finance, but also in terms of setting a precedent for the future.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, I’d suggest that £5 billion is worth a lengthy process, even if you are a bit busy at the moment, because I think that’s what, effectively, you said. You know that HM Treasury’s statement of funding policy has a section on disputes and disagreements; I’m wondering whether you would utilise that at all. You mentioned the dispute resolution processes that you’ve agreed as devolved administrations with the UK Government or individually between the Welsh Government and UK Government; why are they there, then, unless you’re willing to actually use them?

There’s a question as well as to whether the Government did or didn’t consider a judicial review at the time of the making of that original decision, or at any other stage since then, and if none of those are possible, or if none of those are appropriate in your view, then what does that tell us about the devolution settlement, and what does that tell us about the way Wales is treated within the United Kingdom?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Llywydd, I won’t be making any announcements about any access that we make of the dispute mechanism during questions. I think that’s very much something that, when the time comes, the First Minister will want to report to the Senedd. And it’s not the case that I’m too busy; I think that’s rather a facetious remark on the part of the Member this afternoon. What I’m saying is that there are a number of things that I think the Member would agree that we have a legitimate cause for, and it’s important that we are strategic in the way that we approach the disputes.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's policy for local authority multi-location meetings? OQ59484

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. Our policy has not changed. Each council is responsible for ensuring that their meeting arrangements comply with the legal requirements set out in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 and related regulations and guidance.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that local authorities are autonomous organisations, but in my own region, the Vale of Glamorgan, for example, it has only held one hybrid meeting. All meetings otherwise are undertaken on Zoom or Teams, or whatever other computers they choose to use. That cannot be acceptable, can it, Minister, when a local authority, like Cardiff, for example, offer that hybrid model, and Rhondda Cynon Taff, the other local authority in my area, offer the hybrid model. Isn’t it time now that the Government took a view to make sure that local authorities do offer, at the very minimum, a hybrid format for meetings, so that the public do have the opportunity to engage in person, and councillors themselves, since the last election, can start building relationships with fellow councillors, to create proper democracy in our town halls the length and breadth of Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, the legislation itself, as the Member knows, doesn't require meetings to be held in a certain format, and as he says, it is for each authority to agree its own arrangements, including how members can safely participate in those proceedings. We are in discussion with local authorities about the implementation of the arrangements that have developed since COVID, and we will have a review of the guidance that we provide in terms of those hybrid or virtual meetings later this year. I do understand the point that the Member is making. I think that there are ways outside of those formal meetings for members to establish those relationships, and, of course, we will continue to have these discussions, both with the WLGA but also One Voice Wales, to ensure that councils are working within the legislation, but also that they're having the support that they need from us. We've been doing lots of work with the local government digital officer, for example, to explore what additional support local authorities might need in this space. But I'm afraid I don't think I have an answer that will satisfy the Member this afternoon in terms of his desire to move away from online-only meetings, because as far as the legislation is concerned, there is no gold standard and no one type of meeting is better than another for the undertaking of the business.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

4. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to reform local democracy? OQ59471

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 sets out a new governance framework for our councils. I am working with local government to implement this legislation and also providing funding to increase diversity, improve governance and deliver digital transformation.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'd like to thank the Minister for your answer. It's vitally important that we get as many people as possible standing in local elections to increase access to local democracy. However, many of those people who stand face a torrent of online abuse, which is totally unacceptable, and women get it especially worse than men and it has no place in our society. So, I'd like to know, Minister, what are the Welsh Government doing to make local democracy more accessible to people and to eradicate abuse of our politicians?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'll start with that point of abuse. Obviously, it's up to all of us to call out unacceptable behaviour and set a zero tolerance for bullying and harassment in all its forms. So, I'll just reassure the Member that we are working closely with the WLGA and One Voice Wales to promote training on the code of conduct, and also to implement the changes in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 to the ethical framework, which places a duty on political group leaders to promote high standards of conduct and requires standards committees to support them in this duty and also take a more proactive role themselves in tackling and preventing breaches of the code. I say that because when we undertook a survey of councillors, we understand that lots of those councillors reported that they were receiving abuse from other councillors, so it's not just a case of receiving abuse from the public, which also is a big problem. Actually, we need to be looking at it in all different places. So, we are working with councils through our statutory guidance to ensure that councillors know where they can go to get help if they find themselves the subject of abuse, and we're able to make support available for training in terms of dealing with harassment and building your own personal resilience.

We are doing lots as well to try and make becoming a councillor, at either a county council level or at town and community council level, easier for people to do. Obviously, we have our access to elected office fund, which has been really important in helping people become town and community councillors for the first time. We're very committed to extending that fund. We've also introduced our job share arrangements. We have hybrid working, which we've just been talking about, for example, and we've also introduced new rules around family absence, so people who adopt, for example, are able to access time to spend with their adopted child to build those bonds. So, we're trying to make sure that we consider all different ways to make being a councillor more attractive to people, and when people are a councillor to make it a good experience for them.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the development of Welsh Government regional budgets during the Sixth Senedd? OQ59472

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government remains committed to providing equitable support to all regions of Wales. We continue to make investments in health, education, local government and regional economic development that account for regional considerations.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Thank you very much for your response, Minister. During the fifth Senedd term, of course, a lot of discussion took place prior to the COVID pandemic regarding the establishment of regional indicative budgets, particularly with regard to economic development, health and care and education, and other services and delivery. What sort of formula has been considered, and has a formula been determined, in regard to regional budgeting, particularly insofar as replacement EU funding is concerned, on where investment should be directed?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I'll just begin by recognising the work that Ken Skates did when he was in the economy portfolio in the last Senedd, which did lead to some really significant steps forward in terms of driving regional development in Wales, and regional considerations do continue to be one of a number of factors that are considered in terms of allocating budgets.

But, from the economy department perspective, it completed a detailed review of an appropriate formula to ensure fair funding of the regions insofar as economic development is concerned, and that formula uses a combination of hard economic figures alongside a weighting for spatial and social considerations, such as employment and deprivation levels, place and locations. And again, a theme that's coming through questions this afternoon has been about how we recognise deprivation and spatial considerations as well. So, those principles are applied across the portfolio spend, and that can be demonstrated in services such as Business Wales, to ensure that there is budget regionality within the economy and that it's balanced and appropriate. So, we are working, in terms of the post-EU situation, with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to review its approach to economic development with Wales to ensure that we have the correct means of allocating funding that is well informed and data driven in future.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Can I support Ken Skates in raising this topic here today, because many of my residents in north Wales think that they get a raw deal from a Cardiff Labour Government? And Minister, you can understand why when you see some of the issues that my residents are facing in north Wales. We've got public transport that is underfunded, with a metro—around £50 million committed to that, whilst hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds are committed to a metro system here in south Wales. We've got nearly all road investment cancelled in north Wales, whereas we see hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds invested in roads here in south Wales again. We've got a health board that seems to be in and out of special measures and in special measures again, and hospitals struggling under the pressure. And we know the Welsh Government, as has already been mentioned today, gets £1.20 to spend on public services for every £1 spent in England. So, the lack of investment in my area seems to be a political choice to me.

It's clear to me that greater movement of power needs to be moved from Cardiff Bay to north Wales and to regions because true devolution, I'm sure you'd agree, Minister, is not about hoarding powers in one place, but getting them as close to ordinary people as possible. So, Minister, in light of the question from Ken Skates, and the journey where we've gone so far in terms of regional budgets, will you commit today, to the people who I represent in north Wales, to more power being devolved to the region and more input over regional budgets?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

One excellent idea, of course, of how we're intending to devolve powers would be to give local authorities the ability to raise a tourism levy in those communities where they feel that it is an appropriate thing for them to do, and that's just one example of how we would look at devolving powers.

But I think if we look to the regional economic frameworks that have been established, they really do recognise those joint priorities that exist between local authorities and also building on those cross-local authority projects that exist. So, in north Wales in particular, we've worked collaboratively alongside Ambition North Wales and wider partners to co-design and deliver the regional framework for north Wales, and that sets out priorities for the region, and it's being considered now by each of the local authorities for individual endorsement, and we do have endorsement of the framework.

We're currently now working with partners to develop a delivery plan for the priorities identified in the framework, and they'll recognise and build on existing partnerships and projects, including the north Wales growth deal and north Wales energy strategy, to maximise the economic benefits there. That work has been delayed due to local authorities having to utilise their limited resources to bid for UK Government levelling-up and shared prosperity funding, but that work is continuing now, and, going forward, the framework can provide an important foundation for the north Wales corporate joint committee in relation to its economic well-being functions. So, I know that the economy Minister would be very keen to provide any further detail on any of those items to the Member.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

6. Will the Minister provide an update on procurement work being undertaken by the Welsh Government to support local authorities with their energy costs? OQ59490

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. Procurement of energy is well evolved across local government. Twenty-one local authorities participate in advance-buying strategies to lessen the impact of market volatility on their energy bills. The Welsh Government provides an energy management service for 70 plus public and third sector organisations, including 16 local authorities.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Gweinidog. There is pressure, of course, upon local authorities to reduce scope 3 emissions, those being emissions that they are indirectly responsible for up and down the supply chain through their purchased goods and services. Of course, budgets are tight for many local authorities at the moment and there will be a challenge for them to make choices on energy in the long and short term. Are these choices simply being left up to the discretion of local authorities, or is the Welsh Government providing further guidance or further active support in this area?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, we have a Welsh Government commercial procurement service, and that does provide a management service, as I say, supporting 70 plus customers across Wales to get the best value for their gas and electricity supply, and most authorities purchase their energy from the Crown Commercial Service's framework, and that has an advance-purchasing strategy, meaning that customers' monthly bills are protected from those global price fluctuations, as the energy required for delivery in 2023-24 was purchased in advance. So, I think that some of the structures that we have in place are really important and they do give local authorities the ability to have that certainty of bills moving forward for their plans.

I think the point made about local authority spend and decarbonisation further down the supply chain, if you like, in the areas that they're not directly able to control, is a really important one and something that the decarbonisation panel has spent a lot of time considering, and something that all local authorities in their decarbonisation plans will be looking to address as well. So, it's absolutely something that is on the radar and something that's being actively worked on by all local authorities, but equally something that the decarbonisation panel takes a kind of strategic view on, with a view of providing support through the Welsh Government for that kind of action. And of course, you will have seen, in our budget we do have some specific funding for local authorities in respect of decarbonisation as well, so it's very much a shared endeavour.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

7. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government 2023-24 capital programme? OQ59463

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I've allocated over £8 billion of capital funding for the financial years 2022-23 to 2024-25, including over £2.7 billion in 2023-24. This funding will enable delivery of a range of programme for government commitments, including decarbonising Wales’s social housing, upgrading our public and active travel networks, and flood risk management interventions.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. The cost of building is increasing as the cost of both building materials and labour increases. Can the Minister provide an update on the projected use of the mutual investment model? My view on it is well known: it is private finance initiative lite. Whilst the worst excesses of PFI, such as not financing soft services and capital equipment, and charges such as £20 to change a light bulb will not occur, it is still expensive. Have the Welsh Government considered using capital receipts by selling surplus land or using local authorities' capacity to borrow in order to fund the capital programme?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, we continue to use the well-established principle of using the cheapest form of finance first, which is traditional capital, and then we revert to borrowing and more innovative forms of investment after that, such as the mutual investment model, when traditional capital has been exhausted but where we still have ambition to do more.

So, the first MIM scheme to reach financial close was the dualling of sections 5 and 6 of the Heads of the Valleys road, currently in construction, and the next two schemes to close were an all-through school in Flintshire and a primary school bundle in Rhondda Cynon Taf, and these projects are also in construction, and the Velindre Cancer Centre is expected to be the next scheme to close. But it's really important to note that these projects are very unlikely to have been able to go ahead were it not for the mutual investment model, because we are so strapped for capital and our capital budget is so very tight. So, we do these things when we move through those other, cheaper forms of financing. But, in terms of reporting to the Senedd, you will recall that, in July 2022, we provided a comprehensive report, and it's our intention to update that in due course.

As far as capital receipts are concerned, as part of our asset management strategy, planned capital receipts from disposals and sales of assets are reflected in our published budgets, and they're taken into account when our budgets are set. But if there are any opportunities in-year, when there is an unplanned capital receipt coming forward, that's something that I do discuss with the individual Minister concerned, bearing in mind the context of the pressures across Government.

And then, on local authority borrowing, local authorities make their own determination on the level and use of borrowing, but it's something that we do have discussions on in terms of how they can use that facility to do more of the things that I know that we'd like to recognise as joint, again, priorities with local government.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Can I just pick up on Mike Hedges's point about mutual investment models, because I think, as you alluded to, I think, Minister, they do play an important role in allowing the Welsh Government to deliver things that it might not otherwise have been able to? And the reason and the context I guess that I'm raising this in is that I think the picture can be quite confused in terms of whether the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru actually support these mutual investment models. So, in Plaid Cymru's manifesto I note they supported them, but then have been particularly critical when they're implemented—the Heads of the Valleys project comes to mind. Who knows? Maybe Plaid Cymru will take a different view in the next few months on that. But, in terms of the Labour Party as well, we've heard from Mike Hedges, and I read a blog—a very interesting blog—from my colleague here, Carolyn Thomas, recently, who said they're effectively resurrecting PFI. So, can I just be really clear, Minister, from you, whether the Welsh Government continues to back the use of these mutual investment models as a key measure in the suite of measures available to Welsh Government to get on and build and invest in that capital programme?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, we absolutely stand by the mutual investment model, but, as I say, it's a model that we go to after we've exhausted all the cheaper forms of capital, and our preference would always be to have a better capital settlement from the UK Government. In developing the MIM, we have been able to avoid the pitfalls of traditional PFI in terms of having a Welsh Government nomination on the board of projects, ensuring that we have really, really strong community benefits. And colleagues would have seen, in the comprehensive report that I referred to, which was published last year, some of those benefits coming to life in terms of apprenticeships and the kinds of green standards that we require in these projects as well. And then just—. It's not for me to answer for Plaid Cymru, and the mutual investment model isn't part of our co-operation agreement.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next question will be question 8 from John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

8. What is the Welsh Government's latest assessment of debt recovery practice in local government across Wales? OQ59478

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

There are various recovery practices for different types of debt. In relation to council tax, we have used our available powers to ensure the collection of arrears is managed in a just and sensitive way. All local authorities in Wales have committed to implementing the council tax protocol for Wales.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, the conduct and charges of bailiffs often add to debt and makes it more difficult for people to repay, and they often feel overwhelmed by the amount that's created by the addition of the bailiffs' charges and, indeed, unrealistic demands for repayment. Would you agree that it's far more productive for individuals and local authorities to do more to prevent debt arising in the first place, and, if it does arise, to prevent the addition of charges to the amount? And if, indeed, even that isn't possible, then there should be realistic schedules for repayment. And would you agree with me, Minister, that it would be preferable if local authorities had high standards for the use of particular bailiff firms, assessing the conduct of those firms and also whether or not they're registered with the voluntary registration scheme with the Enforcement Conduct Board?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm very grateful for that question, and I definitely agree that preventing debt from happening in the first place would be the ideal place to be. And I would point the Member, and all colleagues, to the important work that the single advice fund does in terms of being a lifeline for people who are struggling with the cost-of-living crisis, and since January 2020 services have helped 144,000 people deal with over 660,000 social welfare problems. They’ve also helped those people to claim additional income of £83 million, and had debts totalling £23 million written off, so I think that really demonstrates the value of that service, and I’d encourage anyone who is struggling to call and find out what support might be available to them. The service really knows that, when people are struggling with debt, it’s probably not the only problem that they’re struggling with as well, so they’re able to take that kind of wider look at the person’s circumstances. And the use of that enforcement action for debt should always be the last resort, which is why I’m really pleased that we have our protocol with local government, which sets that out very clearly and sets out that creditors need to support people who are struggling with their financial commitments by helping them get that independent advice.

So, I think that there is a lot of good work going on. Local authorities are able to use their service level agreements with enforcement authorities to ensure that they are, for example, attaching themselves to the kind of project that John Griffiths has named. I know there are a number of different schemes that are out there for bailiffs and enforcement officers, which they can sign up to to demonstrate certain ways of working that I think authorities will be very keen to explore.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

9. What assessment has the Minister made of local authority performance of their statutory duties? OQ59469

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

It is the role of the Wales Audit Office, Estyn and Care Inspectorate Wales to assess the performance of local authorities in Wales. The Welsh Government works closely with local authorities to address issues when appropriate.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you, Minister. As you're the Minister of finance, I thought you might take some interest in the fact that the allocation of the capital grant for Gypsy and Traveller sites has not been drawn down at all in the last year. As all local authorities are obliged to complete Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, how does the Minister assess whether each local authority is delivering on filling gaps in its own assessments to meet the level of Gypsy and Traveller accommodation need?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, we obviously want to ensure that all local authorities are providing the adequate and culturally appropriate sites for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities, and you see that through our clear commitment in our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. At the moment, we are currently reviewing the robustness of Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments. Proposals for new sites, and even for improvements, are often complex, and as we all know, they do tend to attract a certain level of challenge, but we are very concerned that, in some cases, there is definitely insufficient progress being made by local authorities to address the needs of the community.

I know that the Minister for Social Justice does intend to discuss the barriers to providing those sufficient sites with local authorities as well as representatives of the Gypsy and Traveller communities, bringing those together to try and move forward on what is a really important issue, and one where I would agree that we’re not making sufficient progress in various parts of Wales. In terms of Cardiff, I know that they are in the process of considering the scale of need and identification of pitches for their replacement local development plan as part of their evidence base.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 10, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

10. Will the Minister make a statement on the capital funds that are available from the Welsh Government for the maintenance of Anglesey County Council's public assets? OQ59482

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The local government capital settlement for 2023-24 provides £180 million of unhypothecated capital funding for Welsh local authorities, of which the Isle of Anglesey County Council receives £4.376 million. In addition, the council will receive support for its public assets from the £1 billion in specific capital grants set out in the budget.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you for that response, Minister. I know that there are concerns on Anglesey, as there are in other authorities, that a failure to access capital funding does endanger the condition of the estate more generally. We need to continue to invest in maintenance of resources that are important for people's well-being—resources for physical exercise, for example, resources to ensure that people live in quality council houses, and so on. Of course, I appeal to the Government to look again at how more capital funding can be released to local authorities, but building on an earlier question from Mike Hedges, what work is being done by Government to seek innovative ways of releasing capital funding within local government? The MIMs, even if they can work, won't be appropriate for everything, and I agree with Mike Hedges that we need to be wary of the risks of MIMs. But, where is the innovation in releasing funding that is crucial for capital expenditure in future?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, I also agree that the mutual investment model won't be right for every kind of project. So, one of the reasons why it works well in the schools context is because you do have that long pipeline of projects coming through, which are well advanced and well identified a good deal of time ahead of the projects taking place. So, I think that it works for some things and definitely not for others.

We of course have discussions with local government about how they can use local government borrowing, as Mike Hedges has set out, perhaps in a more strategic way. Are there ways in which we can support them with that? As I say, we do have those discussions with local government and they are ongoing at the moment. But I’m afraid that I don’t have a particular detailed update that I am able to give because those discussions, as I say, haven’t crystallised around anything in particular yet.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Well done for completing and answering all of the questions on the order paper for you today.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Over to you, now, Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales. The first question is from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

1. What support is the Welsh Government providing to the agricultural industry? OQ59485

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Under our new domestically funded programme, a raft of new schemes have opened for farmers, foresters, land managers and food businesses. This package of support is worth over £227 million, supporting agriculture and the rural economy. This is in addition to the support available through programmes such as Farming Connect.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I refer Members to my declaration of interest. Minister, one of the key things that does need to be invested in here in Wales is the processing sector, so that the produce that our primary producers—i.e. our farmers—produce can have as much value added to it here in Wales, so that the gross value added of agriculture lifts across the board. I have asked you several times over the course of your tenure as Minister what tangible increases we have seen in processing here in Wales, namely in dairy and red meat processing. Are you able to update us as to the level of investment that the Welsh Government is making in those key sectors, to add value to that primary product, and ultimately sustain a vibrant agricultural community because they are achieving the maximum value of the produce that they are producing?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well, we certainly have put specific support into both dairy and meat processing here in Wales. I am thinking particularly in relation to dairy. In north-west Wales, we have put in some significant funding. I can't give you the exact figure, but I would be very happy to write to you on that.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

2. What steps will the Welsh Government take to better regulate dog ownership? OQ59479

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Promotion of responsible dog ownership is a priority for the Welsh Government. Our code of practice for the welfare of dogs outlines the obligations on owners to keep their dogs under control. Our programme for government includes measures that will improve standards of dog breeding and keeping in Wales.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, a Welsh Government report in 2018 estimated that some one in three households in Wales have a dog, and their estimate said that there are some 600,000 dogs in total. Thankfully, most dog owners are responsible, but too many do not exercise proper control. As a result, we see dog attacks, sometimes fatal, on children, adults and the elderly, as well as other dogs.

There is UK legislation, of course, such as the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and so-called 'dog ASBOs', as well as the Welsh Government measures that you touched upon—and I know that you are considering the reintroduction of dog licences, Minister. But, given the ongoing incidents that, unfortunately, we see across Wales, I do believe that our communities expect more action, and they expect it right now, in order to protect life and limb. So, what more can you say in terms of what the Welsh Government will do, Minister, to address these very real concerns in our communities?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. You are quite right: we have seen a recent spate of injuries and deaths as a result of dog attacks on people across Wales. The primary legislation is, as you referred to, the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. I believe that that needs to be strengthened. I have made representations previously to both the Home Office and to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and my understanding was that they weren't inclined to review the Act at the time. I'm in the process of writing again, because I think we have seen, as I said at the outset of this answer, a recent spate of injuries and deaths, and I do think that the Dangerous Dogs Act is not fit for purpose. Certainly, the rural crime teams that we have here in Wales—I recently attended their conference. I don't think that the police think that the legislation is fit for purpose either. There are other pieces of legislation that are appropriate that are even pre 1991 and even pre the twentieth century. So, I do think that we need to look very carefully, and I'd be very happy to do that with the UK Government.

Dogs bring a lot of pleasure to many, many people, but responsible ownership is something I think—. You asked specifically what Welsh Government can do, and I think that's where we can have the most effect, as well, and make sure that people do understand that even the most docile of dogs can sometimes react in a way that is unexpected. So, I think responsible dog ownership is something that we do as a Government very well, and we will continue to do so.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I'm pleased this subject has been raised this afternoon, as what causes me and a lot of people that I've spoken to a lot of anxiety is dog attacks and, obviously, dangerous dogs, which we've discussed. I think there were six deaths in 2022, and there was the young lad in Caerphilly who was mauled to death a couple of years ago. But the common theme here is that they were all subject to one breed, and that's the American bully. That didn't exist in 1991 when the Dangerous Dogs Act was last reviewed, because they were genetically bred through the 1990s and 2000s, and we're in the situation now where we've got a dangerous dog that is effectively unregulated. In that sense, I'm pleased that you've called for a review of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, but specifically what can we do to exhaust all levels at a devolved level to make sure that the Welsh Government is adequately reflecting this fact in Wales, particularly in relation to genetically modified dogs that we perhaps didn't see 32 years ago?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I think you've explained very well why we do need to have that piece of legislation reviewed. As I say, it's not just that piece of legislation; I think there are other outdated forms of dog legislation as well. Certainly the discussions I've had with our rural crime and wildlife commissioner are that there needs to be a holistic view to make sure all the pieces of legislation do what we want them to do.

I mentioned in my earlier answer what we can do as a Welsh Government. We do a great deal in relation to responsible ownership. I think we had a renewed focus on this following the pandemic, where we saw a significant increase in the number of households, not just in Wales, but across the UK, with pets. As I say, they bring a lot of joy, don't they, to a lot of people, and companionship and support, and I think what really is Welsh Government's responsibility is working with people to understand, when they do purchase a pet, just what is entailed. We have several campaigns to make sure that happens. We also have our social media campaign Paws, Prevent, Protect, and that just reminds prospective purchasers of the need to do their research before buying a pet. I think, again, that's very important with breeds that perhaps they might not know much about, and you referred to new breeds as well.

I think we should also encourage the adoption of dogs and cats from rescue centres. I think our rescue centres have seen a significant increase in the number of dogs and cats that they've had to take in. Again, that's all part of that responsible pet ownership that we promote as a Government.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I echo John's comments from earlier. Last week, you may remember, I raised this issue with you of the third serious dog attack in Penyrheol in 18 months. The Westminster legislation in place for protecting the public when it comes to dangerous dogs is not fit for purpose and needs to be, in my opinion, replaced, or at least changed, and you intimated last week that you tend to agree with that opinion. But you also added that various Home Secretaries have ignored your attempts to correspond on the matter. While it may be difficult to have those conversations or dialogues with Westminster counterparts on the matter, one thing you might possibly do is raise awareness of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable when it comes to dog behaviour. It's also important to educate people about the appropriate channels where they can raise concerns, and also lower-level incidents that don't warrant a 999 call. In their ward, the Plaid Cymru councillors in Penyrheol have been proactive on this matter, and firmly believe that there needs to be a national strategy and a national awareness campaign on the matter, so that early-warning signs about dangerous dogs can be recognised and reported. Do you agree with that, and, if so, would you consider implementing such a campaign?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I think you do raise a very important point. It is vital that people do know where to make complaints et cetera, and you'll be aware of the Welsh Government scheme that we had with our local authorities around enforcement. We've put funding into training to make sure that all local authorities are aware of what's expected of them, and what more we can do to help the general public too. On the back of our exchange in the Siambr last week—I think it was in the business statement—I did commit, as I say, to writing again to the Home Secretary—I've not given up—and also the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, because I've raised it with my counterparts in DEFRA on many occasions over the years. It might just be that, because, unfortunately, we've seen this increase in the number of dog attacks and fatalities, maybe they will wake up and think this is now the time to look at this very outdated legislation. So, I am hopeful that, if we write again, something might happen. But as a Government, we can do more, and I'm very happy to look at any campaigns that we can do, either on our own or in conjunction with Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, to promote responsible dog ownership.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, a fortnight ago, you released a written statement in relation to the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021, much more snappily known as the NVZ regs, following a joint initiative between the Government and Plaid Cymru. In that statement, you announced that you're extending the implementation date for the 170 kg per hectare annual limit from 30 April to 31 October, later this year. Whilst this delay was welcomed, it was announced just six days before the regulations were due to be implemented. For the past several months, the agricultural community have been left to scramble, as they attempt to meet these regulations, only to be told at the eleventh hour that you were delaying the start date. Why was this decision left so late, why are the concerns of the agricultural community not being listened to, and why not just follow the lead of other countries and increase the threshold to 250 kg per hectare, so you don't leave Welsh agriculture at a competitive disadvantage?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I certainly don't snappily refer to them as NVZ regulations, because that's not what they are, so it would be good if you could perhaps use the correct title at all times. I extended the implementation date for one measure of the control of agricultural pollution regulations, to give some certainty to the agricultural sector. As you know, I've extended it until 31 October. The reason why it's taken time, and it's still taking further time, is because of the responses we had to the consultation—it's very important that they're given the level of attention that's needed. Obviously, there is a great deal of lobbying going on, on both sides. But what I want to do is absolutely get it right. I think it's very important that we fully consider all of the issues that were raised in response to the consultation, and take that time to ensure we reach the right decision, both for the environment and for the agricultural sector.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I'm grateful for that answer, Minister, but you will forgive me and Joe Bloggs for continuing to refer to them as NVZs when sections 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 of the regulations are directly lifted from NVZ regs. But I do appreciate the concerns around the consultations, and the efforts that are being put into respecting the answers to that consultation. But staying on time frames, you'll be aware that regulation 45 of the NVZ proposals requires any proposals for an alternative measure to be made within 18 months of the regulations coming into effect. I believe, if I'm right in my thinking, that that deadline has now passed. So, by the standards set by yourself and this Government, should any alternative proposal now be brought forward, you will not consider it. Technology is key to improving water quality throughout Wales—technology that is advancing, developing and improving all of the time. Gelli Aur's Prosiect Slyri is just one example, but other groundbreaking technological solutions might now not see the light of the day, thanks to the insistence of a hard and fast deadline within the regulations. With regulation 45 in black and white, what incentive is there for a company, or a team of academics, to come forward with an alternative solution, if you insist that a deadline has passed?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I've said that we will consider that. On the 18-month deadline, I suppose I set that on myself. I think I was being very hard on myself, to make sure that, if anything came forward, we would have to consider it within that time. We haven't seen many more. I hear about what you say about Gelli Aur, and I've been there, along with Cefin Campbell, to have a look at it. I've been a couple of times now, and it is very clear that progress is being made, just not as fast as I think we would want it. But certainly, we have encouraged other people to come forward if they have any ideas. I've made it very clear that I do not want to extend the timescale again from the end of October. I've made it very clear to officials that we need to look at this now as a matter of urgency, and set out our response to the consultation as quickly as we possibly can, and well before that new implementation date that you referred to, in order to give that certainty to everyone.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

That begs the question why was regulation 45 so necessary, if you're saying now in the Chamber that you will look at future alternative measures if they do come forward. That's the bit that I couldn't get when we were questioning you in committee. I still can't quite understand today the insistence on having regulation 45 within the NVZ regs. But I'm not trying to give opposition for opposition's sake here when I'm challenging these regulations and their appropriateness for tackling a problem—a problem that we all want to see fixed. Water pollution from any source needs to be stopped. But given the delay to the implementation, the rigidity in accepting an alternative solution, the problems within the planning system in actually getting storage facilities built, not to mention the inflationary cost of materials, and the analysis of the Irish Environmental Protection Agency, which has shown that nearly half of sites under NVZ regulations actually showed an increase in nitrates, isn't this whole policy just a thinly veiled attack on Welsh agriculture, and a way to destock our countryside by the back door?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely not. I think we've made it very clear as a Government that—you're absolutely right—every form of pollution needs to be stopped, absolutely every form. And that's why the First Minister has had two water quality summits that he has chaired, along with myself and the Minister for Climate Change, because it's not just one sector; it's lots of sectors. What the First Minister wanted, and what happened, was a variety of sectors came forward to that water summit with solutions to these problems and what action they would take. It was not just agriculture; there were many other sectors there. So, to say that just one sector is being picked on is absolutely incorrect.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I was very concerned to hear last week that new bird flu protection zones had been enforced around a large game breeding farm in Powys. This is a concerning development given that the Government had lifted the poultry and game bird housing order on 18 April. The number of birds recorded as suffering bird flu is at its highest now, with some 330 cases recorded in the UK over the pat two years. Over half of the cases recorded in Wales have been recorded in Powys, with poultry farms being particularly badly hit and almost 4 million birds being culled. The order for keeping birds indoors was introduced at the beginning of December last year, before being lifted four months later. I would, therefore, like to understand the efficiency of this order in terms of preventing the spread of the disease among birds in Wales. Will the Minister outline the Government's assessment of the efficiency and effectiveness of these measures? And if no assessment has yet been made, I would like to know when the information will be available, please.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. As you know, we have seen a significant number of avian influenza cases in Wales, and far more across other parts of the UK. For about 20 months, we have not seen any respite, really, from that. As you said, on 18 April, we did lift the mandatory housing measures for birds, which I introduced, I think, on 2 December. I did that because the advice I was given from the chief veterinary officer, and the advice we were given from other areas, was that that was the right thing to do. There was a reduction in risk to poultry and captive birds. Alongside that, the avian influenza prevention zone remains in force across Wales until further notice. I think it's important to say that. And, also, we are encouraging all bird keepers to abide by the mandatory biosecurity measures and complete the mandatory biosecurity self-assessment checklist, which we introduced back in December, and which helps us monitor efficiency and effectiveness of the various measures that we bring through. I mentioned the all-Wales avian influenza prevention zone. We put that in place back in the middle of October, and, as I say, that does still remain in place. But there is constant monitoring going on not just here in Wales, but obviously across the UK. The chief veterinary officer meets with others on a regular basis—I think it's still weekly—around the AI outbreaks that we've seen across the country.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the Minister for that response. The Minister will be aware that the numbers of cases of AI increase during the winter months. These are very challenging months in trying to prevent the spread of the disease, with wild birds, who are most likely to carry the infection, migrating over the winter months, and likely to take AI to new areas. Because of this, it's important that biosecurity measures are strengthened in order to prevent the spread of avian influenza. Responsible governments ensure that appropriate biosecurity steps are taken to prepare for the risks, but in order to ensure that these are effective it's important to support poultry farmers and keepers in their attempts to implement these measures. Such support can be in the form of training, as well as financial support for providing the necessary infrastructure, and the Government here, in fairness, has already taken some steps to this end over the past 12 months and supported the industry. The summer months are going to be crucially important, therefore, if we're going to prepare effectively for what could be a very difficult winter for the sector. Could I, therefore, ask the Minister what work is in the pipeline or being planned at the moment in preparing for the possibility of the spread of avian influenza this winter?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. You are quite right; normally it is the winter months where we see the majority of AI outbreaks. But really, we haven't had a respite. We had it all through the summer last year, and, as you say, we need to prepare. We have a cross-Government and industry avian influenza taskforce looking at vaccination, for instance, now, because I think that's something that we need to be looking at, whether that's good for the future. Obviously, biosecurity is very important. We have a register of bird keepers here in Wales, and you had to have 50 birds to be on the register. What we're encouraging is for everybody, even if you've only got one in your back yard, to register, so we know where we are and we know how we can get that information to you as quickly as possible. You'll be aware of the work that we've done on banning bird gatherings. Unfortunately, we haven't seen birds at the Royal Welsh Show and other agricultural shows, but that is, I think, really important, because we know there are certain higher risk species of birds where we have to keep those preventions in place.

I think we all have a responsibility in helping to prevent the spread of AI to protect the health of all birds in Wales—our kept birds, our national flocks—and, of course, our trading position. It's really important from that point of view. So, I would urge everybody—. It's a good opportunity—and thank you for raising this today—to tell everyone it's really important that they comply with these measures. We also work with public health agencies. Whilst, obviously, from a public health point of view, the risk remains very, very low, it is really important that we work with them. Also, the Food Standards Agency is advising on the risks from AI. The risk is very, very low from a food safety point of view as well, but obviously it is there. It's about making sure that you properly cook your poultry and properly cook eggs, for instance.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

3. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy about ensuring that the North Wales area benefits from Welsh sporting success? OQ59477

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As the Minister for north Wales, I have regular discussions with all Cabinet colleagues on how portfolios work together. Every effort is made to ensure north Wales reaps the benefits of all our sporting successes.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much for your answer, Minister. The reason I ask this question is because of the recent success in your constituency, which is the success of Wrexham football club winning the National League and returning to the football league after a 15-year absence. I don't pretend to be a Wrexham fan, but I know they've had some dark days over that period of time, and it's great to see them back to their former glory anyway. Plenty of my constituents are also Wrexham fans as well, as you can probably gather. But in terms of looking at how the whole region can benefit from this, obviously with the investment from Ryan Reynolds, Rob McElhenney as well, and the success that they’re having down there in Wrexham, how do you think that the region as a whole can benefit from that investment and create not just an area of sporting champions, but indeed a region of champions to go with that as well?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to again raise the success of Wrexham football club—both the men and the women, and, of course, the youth teams as well. I think it’s very important to remember all four teams gained promotion this year. But I do think you make a very good point—the profile of the club and that of Wrexham has obviously been built on these successes and the number of global visitors we’re getting to Wrexham. I rarely go to a home match now where you’re not approached by an American fan who’s probably never been to Wrexham before and probably never heard of Wrexham before the Welcome to Wrexham documentary and, as you say, the input from Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney. So, I do think it is important for not just north-east Wales, but the whole of north Wales. And you’re quite right—there are people from Anglesey, there are people from Llandudno who sit behind me at the football, and they’ve been there for many, many, many years, including those dark days.

You’ll be aware of the significant funding that’s been given by the Welsh Government to the Wrexham Gateway, and some of that money is going towards the redevelopment of the stadium to ensure that we can have a stadium where international matches can be held, because that hasn’t been possible for many, many years. As a child, that’s where I saw my international football; I couldn’t possibly have come to Cardiff. So, it’s really important for north Wales that we have that ability to host international matches at the Racecourse stadium.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's projects to eliminate TB in Wales? OQ59470

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I made an oral statement in March, updating Members on the TB eradication programme. During my statement, I set out the progress made and launched our new delivery plan, which sets out a course of action for the next five years.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I’d like to thank the Minister for her answer. There is obviously one way, the most effective way, of dealing with bovine TB, and that would be to have a targeted cull of infected badgers across Wales, but that is something that the Welsh Labour Government won’t even entertain. So, I’d like to know where you are with the vaccination programme, and is there any more money being made available for that? I know we had the pilot project last year, but I’d like to know whether more money is being made available for a pilot project this year so we can actually start getting on top of TB across Wales.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I do think we've made significant progress in relation to TB eradication. You're quite right—there is a very, very clear programme for government commitment not to cull badgers. That was in the manifesto on which I and my party were elected two years ago. And as I say, we have seen some steady progress and we continue to build on that.

You're quite right about a vaccine—there’s been some significant progress taken. I think, if you ask any academic, they always say, 'It’s 10 years in advance, 10 years in advance', but it is becoming much closer now; it's certainly not 10 years away. And we did have some pilot projects. Unfortunately there were no farms in Wales that put themselves forward for that project. And then we've just gone into the second phase now, and I've asked officials to work with some farms here in Wales to see if they would be part of that pilot, and I think there are a couple farms that we've identified that hopefully will take part in those pilot schemes. But I think, certainly from the last meetings I had—probably last summer—with academics in Aberystwyth University, they're very hopeful that, before the end of this decade, certainly, and probably a bit closer to where we are now, we will see a cattle vaccine.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

5. Will the Minister provide an update on the regulation of animal welfare establishments? OQ59489

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Our animal health and welfare plan details how we deliver our programme for government commitments. This includes developing a national regulation model for animal welfare, which we will consult on later this year.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

The Welsh Government, of course, launched its voluntary code of practice for animal welfare establishments back in 2020, and it was a welcome step, but research from RSPCA Cymru suggests that this has never been referred to by approximately half of animal welfare establishments, and, worryingly, they also found that none of Wales’s local authorities promote the code of practice on their websites. This, I think, speaks to a need to regulate beyond a voluntary code of practice. We know that there are, of course, plans to introduce registration for animal welfare establishments in the animal welfare plan. The plan itself suggests that consultation and priority documents are due to be published this year. Are you able to tell us when this year, and can we expect any future plans to introduce stringent staffing requirements, species-specific guidance, and adequate funding and training for Wales's 22 local authorities that ultimately will need to deliver on these regulations themselves?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As I said in my earlier answer to you, later this year, so I guess it will be before the end of the calendar year. If I say 'autumn', does that go into November? But probably towards the latter part of the year. I'm very concerned to hear what you say around local authorities not promoting the code of practice on their website. With the work that we've done with local authorities around enforcement projects, for instance, I would have thought that local authorities would perhaps marry the two together and think about promoting those codes of practice a bit more. I shall certainly take that forward with officials to see, because, for me, that's a very simple thing to do. It doesn't even cost anything, does it? So, I think we should look at doing that as quickly as we can.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Riding schools, cat boarders, dog breeders and pet shops are all subject to regulation in Wales, but animal welfare establishments or sanctuaries are not. We must never take away from them the hard work they do, but anyone—literally anybody—can set themselves up and call themselves an animal rescue or an animal sanctuary. Really, there's no inspection process or any regulation. So, again, I don't believe that the voluntary code of practice, as Luke has said, has actually been effective. So, it's good to hear, Minister, that you are considering bringing in more regulations towards the end of the year, and I look forward to that.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well, I don't think it's been ineffective. I think we should be looking at mandatory, though, and yes I certainly hope to go out to consultation by the end of this year. I think it's a good opportunity to thank them. Many of them, as you say, bring forward really hard work, protecting so many animals, and I go back to what I was saying—it's a good opportunity to promote the adoption of pets.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

6. What is the Welsh Government doing to support farmers in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ59466

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Farmers throughout Pembrokeshire received over £18 million from the basic payment scheme during the past year, and our Farming Connect service continues to provide crucial support and advice to 441 businesses in Pembrokeshire.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I'm grateful to you for that answer, Minister. Next week is Mental Health Awareness Week, and I want to put on record my gratitude to organisations like the DPJ Foundation, the Farming Community Network and the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution, who all support people in agriculture and rural communities with mental health problems. Now, as my colleague, the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, said, challenges like bovine TB continue to be a major issue for farmers in my constituency, and the Welsh Government's refreshed TB eradication plan for 2023-28 recognised deep-seated levels of infection in parts of Pembrokeshire where TB herd-level incidence and prevalence have worsened against the overall improving backdrop in Wales. Minister, I know that you recognise that dealing with bovine TB can have a huge strain on farmers' mental health and well-being, so can you tell us why, therefore, your refreshed TB eradication plan does not recognise and prioritise farmers' mental health and well-being, because the Welsh Government needs to be doing everything it can to support farmers that have to deal with this dreadful disease?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I think we need to support farmers' mental health around a variety of issues, so we do do a significant piece of work with third sector groups—and you mentioned the DPJ Foundation, which we both know very well—along with other charities, such as Tir Dewi and the Farming Community Network. Just last week, I met with my official who liaises with those charities, to see what further funding we could perhaps find to support them. I meet regularly with the charities, and certainly during the COVID pandemic I met with them probably monthly, because they were seeing an increased number of calls to the charities because of a variety of issues that, obviously, the COVID-19 pandemic brought as well. So, I don't think it's just around TB, although I absolutely recognise the distress it causes, but I think there are many issues that mean, sometimes, perhaps, farmers feel more isolated than other parts of our communities, where these charities are there for them, and I would urge anyone, if they need to seek that support, to do so, because the charities offer a range of support not just to farmers, but to farming families as well.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

7. When will a review of the code of practice for the rearing of gamebirds for sporting purposes be undertaken? OQ59488

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The review of our code of practice will remain on hold while we examine the evidence around the use of cages for breeding gamebirds. There will not be any changes to the code of practice, or to welfare legislation, without consultation with stakeholders.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much for that response. The killing of animals for sport is something that I oppose, and that includes the shooting of any birds as well. I do realise I'll be out of lockstep with many people here who cover the same region as I do. Many people have said it brings a lot to the economy. Well, that, for me, doesn't make it right. The killing of animals for sport is not something that I would support. And therefore, with the Welsh Government's stated intention to restrict the use of cages for farm animals, it makes little sense for legislation to lag behind for gamebirds. The code of practice as it stands does not advise against the use of enriched cages for gamebirds, an oppressive and distressing method, which the farm animal welfare committee advised was unlikely to meet the birds' needs. In my region, we have Bettws Hall, one of the largest gamebird farms in Europe and, by industry standards, has up to 90,000 gamebirds confined in cages for breeding purposes. There is an opportunity for the Welsh Government to lead the way and take a compassionate stance against the caged breeding of gamebirds. So, does the Minister agree that any update to the code of practice on the rearing of gamebirds for sporting purposes must correct this oversight and help work towards ending this callous practice? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Our code of practice that we have at the moment for the welfare of gamebirds reared for sporting purposes explains what a person needs to do to meet the standards of care the law requires, and it encourages all those who are responsible for rearing gamebirds to adopt the highest standards of husbandry. As you know, our animal welfare plan includes an action to establish a review cycle for all our codes of practice, with updates scheduled as far as possible to reflect our policy developments. So, as I say, unfortunately, it's not possible at this stage to provide a timeline for the review of the code of practice for the welfare of gamebirds reared for sporting purposes, but I have committed to restricting the use of cages, as you mentioned, for farmed animals. We're working with other UK administrations to look at how and where they're used, alongside the welfare impacts of existing and alternative systems. And I should just say, if anyone’s got any concerns about a specific gamebird rearing premises, they should be reported to the Animal and Plant Health Agency or to the relevant local authority, and that goes back to Peredur Griffiths's question about making sure that people know where they should report anything to.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

It's such a shame to hear Jane Dodds turning her back on those many people who are employed in the shooting industry right across my constituency and across the region which she represents. Minister, the shooting industry employs thousands of people. It also benefits huge amounts to the economy and also to conservation. So, with this review, I hope that the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales will put science and people at the heart of their decision rather than ideological views spread by some people.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, the NRW consultation is open at the moment. It closes on 20 June, and that provides an opportunity for anyone with an interest to express their views.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

8. What discussions has the Minister had with Cabinet colleagues about the Wrexham to Bidston train line in North Wales? OQ59473

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I regularly discuss the performance and improvement of important transport links in north Wales with my ministerial colleagues. I am pleased Transport for Wales has introduced new class 230 trains on the Wrexham to Bidston line and have committed to delivering a half-hourly service on the line later this year.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for that, Minister. I'm grateful for your answer. Passengers on the Wrexham to Bidston line are becoming increasingly frustrated with the regular use of rail replacement services on the line. I've had a number of constituents get in touch with me, and I've previously written to the Minister responsible for transport about this matter. Could you outline the support the Welsh Government can give Transport for Wales to resolve this issue and get the line back up and running as soon as possible?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I mentioned that Transport for Wales has now introduced these new trains. They did have to temporarily withdraw a number of trains for urgent repairs. That had a severe impact on services and, unfortunately, services on the Wrexham to Bidston line were cancelled with, as you say, replacement buses put in place. But I think they have now fully restored the hourly service on the Wrexham to Bidston line. I think, as a Government, also, we're very keen to work across to the north-west of England. Transport for Wales, I know, engage regularly with the Liverpool city region; I myself am meeting with the mayor next week, Steve Rotheram, to see how there can be more improved links between our two areas, and obviously work very closely with Merseyrail as well to make sure that improvements for passengers are there on the Wrexham to Bidston line.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 9, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

9. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the Welsh Retail Consortium about reducing the energy consumption of food retailers in North Wales? OQ59491

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The economic policy and fair work division meet approximately monthly with the retail forum to discuss a range of issues, including energy use and efficiencies. The retail action plan is a product of the partnership’s work, and the plan will be published on 18 May.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you. Following the publication of the consortium's shared strategic vision for the retail sector last year, myself and representatives from Friends of the Earth Cymru presented to the group our campaign for the retail sector to adopt a target date for the retrofitting of doors on supermarket chillers and fridges. If this change is made throughout the whole of Wales, it could save the equivalent energy usage of 50,000 homes, helping to lower fuel bills and reduce carbon emissions. Minister, I'd be grateful if you could provide an update on what progress has been made by the retail consortium towards setting such a target, and what support Welsh Government has offered in order to make this a reality. I do believe that there was some capital funding being made available that we could use to borrow against.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well, the plan I referred to is being launched on 18 May. I know that fridge doors are included in the resilience chapter of the plan, and that will continue to be part of the work with the retail consortium to meet our objectives in combating climate change, for instance. Welsh Government does provide support for businesses that are looking to reduce their carbon emissions, manage energy costs and increase business competitiveness through initiatives such as the green business loan scheme, and that scheme offers capital funding, which small and medium-sized businesses often need to make those investment decisions.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, will be the topical questions. The first is to be answered by the Minister for Economy, and is to be asked by Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the future of Tillery Valley Foods? TQ767

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. Officials from both the Welsh Government and Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council have been engaged constructively with Tillery Valley Foods for some time. Our key objectives are to secure a future for the workers, their families, and ideally to retain the business as a going concern. However, to develop solutions with the business, we require information that, to date, has not been readily forthcoming. I would take this opportunity to urge the business and its stakeholders to work with us to jointly consider what options are available to protect the jobs at stake.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. I should also put on record my gratitude to him for the way in which he's led the Government response to the issues around Tillery Valley Foods for many months now. I'm grateful to his officials for the willingness that they've shown to work hard, all hours of the day, through weekends, to ensure that this business is given every support it needs to get through these times.

Tillery Valley Foods is one of the biggest employers in Blaenau Gwent, and it's an enormous employer in the community of Cwmtillery and Abertillery and that part of the Ebbw Fach valley. It's part of a business ecosystem that won't be easily replaced, and as we go through these coming weeks and months, I'd be grateful if the Minister could outline how he believes that the Welsh Government, working with Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, can continue to provide support to the business and to secure all the jobs that are associated with that business.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. I thank the Member for his follow-up question. I should acknowledge that this is, of course, an area that crosses between two Government departments, because the food division is, of course, within the responsibility of my colleague, Lesley Griffiths, so we've been working across different portfolios to try to get answers and then to try to provide the right response to do what the Member says, about wanting to maintain employment in this part of Wales. I recognise completely what he says: the challenge of replacing employment in this part of Wales is not the same as if it were in, say, one of our three cities in the south of Wales; the access to employment is not the same.

The current situation is genuinely concerning, and I understand that it must be very distressing for the workforce and the wider community. We have been proactive with the council since the end of last year—and I remember the conversation I had directly with the Member at that time—both working with the council and the business, and we reached out proactively to creditors and the bank. We've also worked with the Development Bank of Wales to try to understand if there are alternative options for a future. We continue to explore options available to help secure a future for the business, and we're also having to consider what might happen if that isn't possible. You'll be aware that the administration notice has been served and we're now looking to work with the administrator to understand what we can positively do. We will establish a taskforce with the local authority, and I'll make sure that, once that taskforce is established, the Member, as a constituency Member, is properly engaged within that. We'll look to bring together a strategic group to be operationally focused on what we can do, to help co-ordinate action, dealing with the council and the Department for Work and Pensions, if required, as well as Careers Wales and, indeed, Community, who are not the recognised union but have a membership on the site as well. So, we'll look to prepare communications with and for the workforce, to look at options to safeguard jobs, and to make sure that we understand what might be possible, if required, with our ReAct+ programme, and others too.

I should say that we have, in the work that we've done, sought to engage directly in opportunities for the business to survive, not just looking at NHS Wales supply chains, but also the cash flow problems the business has that leads it to this point, but in particular the work we've done with some of our specialist advice areas that look, for example, in investor-ready approaches. That's work we've done together with the Wales Co-operative Centre as well, to look for alternatives. To date, it hasn't worked, but I continue to be focused on what we can do, and I continue to be focused on wanting to get the business to engage with us as openly and as constructively as possible, and we stand ready to work with them, with all the levers that we do have available, together with partners. And I'll make sure that the Member's informed. If there is more I can do, I'll write to the Member with a further update.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, it's not often I do this, but I'd like to concur with everything that Alun Davies has just said. It is absolutely critical that this Government does everything in its powers to save the potential loss of these jobs. We are talking about Tillery foods, which is one of the biggest employers in that area of Abertillery, within my region. We're talking 310 jobs—that's a significant amount of jobs—and it would be a massive, massive loss to them. I, like Alun, also recognise the complexity of this case, of course, and I recognise the work you've done to date, but it would be good if you could possibly come back to the Senedd and update us on what has been done and what your plans are, should you have any action plans going forward, and any progress that you do make, if you could be forthcoming with that information, because of the severity of this to the people of my region. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the follow-up question. As I said in response to Alun Davies, when he raised concerns with us last year, we also had direct engagement with the council, who'd been engaged around the business, to want to understand what could happen. That was relatively late in the day. We understand that they've got challenges about cash flow, and we're not able to inject a large amount of cash into the business. And the Member will understand that there's a challenge about both the budget position and wanting to make sure that any injection of cash actually secures a future for the jobs. But also, we understand that a significant leap in energy costs and wider inflation is part of the reason for the challenges that the company faces. So, we'll continue to engage with them, we continue to want them to engage as constructively and openly as possible with us, and we will carry on working with the council. And I think I should make the point again: I think the council have been genuinely positive and constructive and wanting to find an answer for this business and the jobs that it provides in the local communities. That continues to be our focus, and as I'm in a position to write to interested Members, I will do so. And, as I say, I'm particularly grateful for the very constructive way in which the Member for Blaenau Gwent has not just made the case, but has made clear that his interests are in the jobs and the families that are directly affected.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for the update, Minister. I also want to express my grave concerns about the future of Tillery Valley Foods Ltd, and, as Alun said, it's one of the biggest and best employers that we've had in the wider area. One company employee, who has been in touch with my office, described the factory workforce as one big happy family. As well as expressing their utter devastation about the turn of events, they said that the majority of the workforce live within walking distance of the factory, and are without the option of driving to another place of work. Therefore, the closure of this factory would lead to a very grim future for many of the dedicated and long-serving workforce of Tillery foods.

I understand that the loss of some major contracts has promoted these financial difficulties for the company. It’s also my understanding that, while a big part of their business comes from supplying NHS England with food, they don’t seem to have the same relationship with NHS Wales. As well as offering direct financial help, is there any way that we can increase public procurement opportunities for companies like Tillery foods—a policy that Plaid Cymru has been pursuing for many, many years now, to ensure that Welsh public money recirculates around the local economy? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

That is exactly what we have been doing, and there have been direct conversations that we’ve had as the Government with the council and with Tillery Valley Foods, and again, the points that the Member makes around the direct answers that we need on the financial position of the company, the ownership structure, including the ownership of assets, and understanding the value in the business and what we’re able to do, has been a key—. It’s partly that we reach out to creditors and others to want to accurately understand what we’re all being told, and what we can then do to try to support the business to maintain its activity and to maintain the employment.

Now, we have, as I’ve said in earlier answers—and I think as I said in the initial answer to Alun Davies—looked at procurement issues within NHS Wales, but it does mean that we still need to understand whether we can help the company deal with its immediate cash flow issues or whether we can actually have a stable ownership and investment structure, and actually, the time frame for all those things to happen. But we have been proactively looking at each of those areas, including NHS Wales procurement.

I want to strike a note of some optimism about what we can do, but it has to be balanced with the realism that we’re not in control of the company and we need the business to work with us to be able to map out a sustainable future for the hundreds of jobs and families that are reliant on it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for health, and is to be asked by Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the announcement that four vascular patient deaths at Glan Clwyd Hospital are to be investigated further by the coroner? TQ772

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The four vascular cases referenced by the Member’s question were referred to His Majesty’s Coroner by the health board itself last year as part of its vascular quality review panel process. This, I think, shows openness on the part of the health board, and whilst I am unable to comment on individual cases, I would like to inform the Member that the health board are acutely aware of the challenges relating to vascular services at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Patients and their families have paid a very high price for the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board’s bungling of the centralisation of vascular services in north Wales. It is a disgrace that these deaths were not referred to the coroner until an external review of their clinical records earlier this year, and I cannot, frankly, imagine the anguish that the loved ones of these individuals must now be experiencing, given that the coroner has confirmed that an inquest is now appropriate. Families will obviously be very concerned, and members of the public will be, too. And they’ll rightly have many questions that they will want this inquest now to answer.

Now, clearly the senior executives who are responsible for letting patients and their families down must not be let off the hook, and the health board and the wider Welsh NHS need to learn lessons to prevent people from coming to harm again in the future. So, will you ensure that this is the case—that those lessons are indeed learnt? And, given the fact that three of these deaths occurred shortly after the health board was removed from special measures in November 2020, does the Welsh Government itself accept any responsibility for what has happened?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like to reassure members of the public in north Wales that these are not recent cases. Now, that doesn’t make it any easier for those families, but the reason why these cases have come to light is because, following the investigation by the Royal College of Surgeons, which, of course, was the report commissioned by Betsi Cadwaladr. After the publication of that report in 2023, the health board decided that they wanted to go even further and wanted to set up their own vascular quality panel. It was while they were investigating those 47 cases that they realised that there were four cases that should have been referred to the coroner. Obviously, and understandably, that does cause anguish for the families, and I was very pleased to see that the medical director apologised to those families back in January this year. What we do know is that there were 27 recommendations in those reports, and I can assure you that the health board has taken those very seriously.FootnoteLink

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

My thoughts certainly are with the families of these four individuals, who have to relive their period of profound grief once again. But I am very pleased that the coroner has provided an opportunity now to look at the unacceptable risks that patients had to face after services were centralised in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. That decision was a mistake—that is my firm belief. The previous chief executive and previous medical director at Betsi Cadwaladr couldn't even tell me why they decided to centralise in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. I remember asking, 'Why Glan Clwyd?' They said, 'Well, it happened before our time.' Even if you believe in centralising, surely it should have been in the centre of excellence in Ysbyty Gwynedd that those services should have been centralised.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

A couple of questions. Firstly, the coroner is reported today to have said that there would be an examination of all cases of a similar nature in relation to vascular services. Can the Minister tell us how Welsh Government will help ensure that examination of those cases is able to take place effectively and in a timely manner? And secondly, can the Minister update us on what she thinks the state of vascular services across the north is? Because concern is still enormous and has been strengthened again today.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Well, I think that what is important is that we do learn the lessons from the past. What I can give you is an assurance, as I said, that the health board has taken this very seriously. There were 27 recommendations that the vascular quality panel made, on top of the nine key recommendations that the Royal College of Surgeons made. Now, it is the health board that is responsible for ensuring the safety of the services in Betsi Cadwaladr. It was an issue that I know I brought up with the chair and executives of the board in my meeting with them last week, to make sure that they didn't lose focus on this. In terms of assurance, what I can tell you is that the service is now stable. We're in a situation where we had a new consultant appointed this week, which takes us up to nine consultants. There are regular surveys of the staff in terms of morale, and training. And there are very strong working relationships between the health board and Liverpool and Stoke in relation to vascular services.

So, there is a huge amount of work being done in relation to the effectiveness of clinical pathways, clinical governance, consent, accountability, person-centred care, team working. All of these things are being worked through by the health board. Look, I don't think that we are out of the woods yet, here, and, certainly, I do hope that the new board will ensure that they keep a focus on this, and that is certainly something that I underlined to them recently.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

There are no 90-second statements today.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Incontinence

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

So, we will move on to item 5, which is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on incontinence. I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the three co-sponsors of this motion and myself, I want to thank Julie Cornish, the colorectal surgeon at Cardiff and Vale health board; Laura Price, physiotherapist at Hywel Dda health board; and Amy Marshall, an expert patient on incontinence, who volunteers for Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales, whose presentations to the women's health cross-party group in March alerted us to the extent of the incontinence challenge and the inadequate prudent healthcare response, both in terms of prevention and early intervention and the long waiting lists and gaps in secondary health services.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

This is a problem that affects women and men across Wales in every constituency and every community. Nine out of 10 first-time mothers experience perineal trauma after childbirth. Four out of 10 women get urinary incontinence and over one in 10 suffer anal incontinence. And it isn't just a women's problem; three in five men over 50 are affected by prostate problems, frequently needing to pee, as well as pain when urinating. Despite this very universal problem, it's a taboo subject, rarely spoken about, which society largely chooses to ignore, thus three quarters of women affected by incontinence do not seek medical help, and they go to endless lengths to disguise their embarrassment.

Despite having had two vaginal spontaneous deliveries myself, I know that jumping on the trampoline with my grandchildren is completely out of the case, and I regularly have to track where I may be able to go to the loo when I'm out and about. Cardiff Council is making a modest contribution with its handy loo guide, but it's less than comprehensive, and the retail and tourism sector could be playing a much bigger part in helping people get to the loo wherever they are. How many dedicated volunteers invited to the coronation of the King did not attend, once they realised they would be stuck in their seats for five hours with no access to a loo?

This isn't just an older person’s problem. Anyone giving birth is in their prime of life by definition, so why does it nearly always lead to perineal trauma? The perineum holds our bladder, our bowel and our uterus in place, so it's a pretty fundamental part of women's anatomy, and it's under a lot of strain when you're carrying around a lot of extra weight from a growing foetus. Why is it that 90 per cent first-time mothers have at least a first-degree tear, and 70 per cent require stitches to the area around the birth canal? We really do need to give women advice and help about perineal care, both before and after the birth. Brutally, I don't think it's available. It wasn't when I was giving birth 30 plus years ago, and I'm sure it isn't today. For example, people could be advised to massage their perineum with oil to make it stretch more easily when the baby is making its way down the birth passage, and this simply doesn't happen, as far as I'm aware.

Every year, millions of women worldwide suffer trauma to the perineum when giving birth, and, as far as I’m aware, there’s only one country—France—which has consistently taken this matter seriously. Every new mother is prescribed 10 sessions of pelvic floor rehabilitation after she delivers a baby—so, pelvic floor exercises provided by physiotherapists or midwives eight weeks after the birth, regardless of symptoms. It's a common misconception that women who have a caesarean section will be free from pelvic floor problems; this is simply not true. And so, everybody gets this service. They're advised to eat food that doesn't cause them to have constipation, which obviously causes more perineal problems. And pelvic floor exercises—just telling people to do it doesn't make it happen. You need group sessions where people actually have to get out and do it, because it's not something—. We can all get told about it, but we don't necessarily do it. So, I don't know of anywhere else where this is happening, although I know some providers in Australia I've read about are fully aware of the problem. And the cost-benefits of doing this are huge in terms of healthy life expectancy, pain-free sex, and preventing women of working age from dropping out of the labour force.

Contrast that scenario with the experience of one of my constituents, who became doubly incontinent following two traumatic births, and spent 20 years trying to get appropriate treatment that wouldn't make her condition worse. She was advised to get sacral nerve stimulation—a low-level intervention, compared with surgery—but, back in 2014, this required an out-of-area specialist referral to Exeter, when there was no sacral nerve stimulation available in Wales at all, and she was refused the money to do it. So, she never got the service she needed, and she had to give up her job as a leader in early years education mid career. What is the loss to our economy of all the teachers, doctors, engineers with incontinence who are forced to drop out of the workforce or only take limited work from home?

I recall, in the last Senedd, the Welsh Government's women's health implementation group had to deal with the fallout from the vaginal mesh scandal, as many women had turned to vaginal mesh implants in desperation to resolve their incontinence. Yes, it may have helped some people, but for most it led to increasing their agony, and happily is now banned. That's when I first met the wonderful colorectal consultant Julie Cornish, who was one of the experts on the Welsh health implementation group. She had routinely offered sacral nerve stimulation when she was practising in England, but was told she wasn't allowed to do it once she came to Wales. I'm very glad that, thanks to Julie's persistence, she now heads up an all-singing, all-dancing pelvic health service from Barry community hospital. Sacral nerve stimulation is available to anybody who needs it in Cardiff and the Vale, but with waiting times of four years for faecal incontinence before any treatment, the investment is clearly not sufficient to meet the demand. So, a question to the Minister is: why is sacral nerve stimulation not available to women throughout Wales? We really are playing catch-up compared to England, and it's a much less invasive intervention than surgery or colonic irrigation.

The costs of inaction are huge, both to the individual and to society as a whole. You cannot hold down a job in a workplace where they time your loo breaks, and, in addition to that, anybody who's had a baby knows how expensive nappies are; imagine that you have to wear sanitary pads every day of the year to disguise your incontinence. The cost is massive, and mainly borne by the individual. Julie Cornish herself highlighted that £233 million is spent by the NHS to treat urinary incontinence, compared to £178 million borne by incontinent individuals.

Those who do seek medical help are the ones who are desperate, and there's so much more we could be doing on preventative measures, such as diet and exercise and physiotherapy, and creating an incontinence-aware workplace and leisure environment to enable those who suffer from it to lead as normal a life as possible. It also would reduce the risk of falls and fractures and reduce the burden on caregivers who are having to deal with incontinence. The absence of secondary services across Wales, particularly fixing the sacral nerve stimulation gaps, creates a cost to society and human happiness far greater than the investment needed by preventative and early intervention.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

I was honoured to be a co-sponsor of this debate today. Sadly, incontinence remains something talked about only in hushed tones, if at all. Jenny has ably highlighted how widespread incontinence is in women and the impact it can have, but, as our motion alludes to, men can leak too—four simple words, but, when spoken, they have the power to tackle a taboo that impacts the lives of hundreds of thousands of men across the UK every year.

One in three men over 65 are estimated to have an incontinence problem, and one in 25 men over the age of 40 experience incontinence issues each year. Yet it's not discussed and no Government, of any colour, has taken steps to address this issue. For such a widespread issue, it is shocking that it still remains shrouded in secrecy and shame. The NHS estimate that between 3 million and 6 million people suffer from some form of urinary incontinence, or UI, and as many as a third of men over the age of 65, as I said earlier, are affected. But it remains a hidden subject, and, while it remains in the shadows, there is less likelihood of any Government taking action to make life better for those suffering from UI.

We need a clear strategy that not only helps raise awareness, improves diagnosis and treatment pathways, but also helps address daily barriers faced by people living with UI—barriers such as the lack of public toilets. It’s surprising to me that we are still discussing the availability of public toilets. When I was first elected to this place, in 2015, I remember Darren was raising this issue every time, while travelling from north to south. I remember, further, working with the Senate of Older People and their 'P is for People' campaign to improve public toilet provision. Yet here we are, eight years later, and it is estimated that we have around 40 per cent fewer public toilets. Public toilets across Wales have been turned into shops, cafes, even homes and a theatre. Welsh Government-run trains are removing onboard toilet facilities, making it even harder for people suffering from incontinence, as well as other bladder and bowel issues, to use public transport.

But even when people suffering from UI do find a toilet, the chances are they don’t find suitable facilities to meet their needs, particularly for men. Men suffering from UI have said they avoid going out at all because they know that public toilets will not have a place to dispose of incontinence pads or provide facilities for men to clean up. This often forces men to carry the used pads with them or ask a partner to put them in their handbag, adding to the embarrassment and sense of shame. There is no need to be ashamed or embarrassed, but, unfortunately, it has become ingrained in us.

We need to change our attitudes to incontinence. Hopefully, this debate will be the catalyst for change, raising awareness of what is, after all, a common ailment, and forcing Government to take a lead in ensuring that people living with UI are fully supported, urging the public and private sectors to make simple changes, such as providing incontinence bins in all male lavatories. I urge members to support this drive to change by backing our motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm glad to speak in this debate as a co-submitter of the motion and a member of the cross-party group on women's health. I want to thank Jenny Rathbone for bringing this debate forward, and I also want to thank the contributors to the cross-party group for bringing this issue to the attention of the Senedd.

As a society, we now talk so much more about issues that used to be hidden, but there was a time when childbirth, periods, menstrual health, the menopause were only mentioned through euphemisms or in whispers, when women were made to feel that they had to hide the physical effects of these natural parts of their lives. Thankfully, these matters, which affect the whole population, not only women themselves, but also of course their partners, their families, their friends, their colleagues, have now become much more talked about, in workplaces, in places like this Siambr, in schools and colleges. And it's of course a good thing. It's also an essential thing, because there are still too many taboos that we find as a society difficult to talk about: issues that affect women uniquely, but not solely, issues that have a significant impact on a woman's life, and are yet not being wholly or effectively addressed, in terms of healthcare or education, issues such as incontinence and its causes.

When I gave birth for the first time, although I knew about it, I wasn't completely prepared for the pain. But what I wasn't at all prepared for in any way, by any prenatal class or midwife, was the huge and distressing physical toll that giving birth took on my body, in the days, weeks and months after giving birth—the injury it caused to me, specifically my ability to control my bladder. Coughing too hard, laughing too hard were now a problem, and this was a shock. I remember thinking, 'Why don't women talk about this?' But what was more shocking, and also distressing, was that it was never addressed by the doctor who stitched my torn perineum, or by the midwife who inspected those stitches, or by the health visitor, and it elicited no more than a sympathetic smile from my GP when I hesitatingly mentioned it when I was being tested for an infection.

But I was lucky; my body recovered. The injuries I had suffered because of childbirth healed well, and fairly quickly, and my bladder control returned almost to normal. But, now, in my 50s, I'm facing the same problem again, and the symptoms of menopause, although now being talked about more, are too often reduced to hot flushes, night sweats, brain fog. The more taboo aspects, such as bladder weakness and incontinence are still not commonly known, discussed or treated. Incontinence appears to be still one of those issues that women are expected to just put up with. We are thus led to think that urinary incontinence is an inevitable part of the ageing process, or of giving birth.

Many of my female friends, who have found themselves incontinent, either through childbirth injury or through menopause, have told me about not being able to run or do exercise, who limit their activities because of their need to be near a toilet, and, no, they have never, ever been offered any kind of help or support. They didn't expect this to happen, which has added to their distress, and they find it hard to talk about, with family, with colleagues, even with partners.

This is the situation. Although urinary incontinence is deemed a common consequence of childbirth injury, we must remember, as Jenny said, that there is over a 90 per cent incidence of perineal trauma amongst first-time mothers. It was also made very clear to us, in the evidence we heard in the cross-party group, that incontinence also affects those who have not given birth. So, it's crucial we must not limit better awareness and support only to receiving pre and postnatal care, or to the menopausal, or to the elderly. This is a health issue that doesn't just impact on people's day-to-day lives; as we heard, it's also costly, to both the patients themselves, and to the NHS.

The Government's quality statement for women and girls' health, which describes what health boards are expected to deliver to ensure good-quality health services to support women and girls, was published last July. It lists incontinence as one of the conditions where there is gender inequality, and a need for gender-competent services that women might require differently to men. But the evidence we heard, both from specialists and women suffering from incontinence, showed that it's clearly not the case at present that women know that this issue, although common, is not normal, and that there is effective treatment available or accessible to them. There can be no doubt, as we have heard many times in this Chamber, that gender bias and inequality within health provision plays a significant role in this situation, and again, the postcode lottery of medical expertise and provision of treatment is contributing to the lack of support across Wales for women suffering from incontinence and its debilitating and distressing effects.

The motion before us today calls on Welsh Government to develop a strategy for tackling the causes and consequences of incontinence, and to raise awareness of the issue among the public. Irrespective of severity, clinicians tells us that this is an issue that is having a daily impact on the quality of people's lives. So, I urge Members to support the motion, to eradicate the stigma that surrounds such a common but serious problem, to create a streamlined, accessible pathway to treatment in all parts of Wales, and I also urge you—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Sioned, you have gone over your time quite a bit.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

It's my last sentence, Diprwy Lywydd. I also urge Members to speak up about this issue with your constituents, with your family and friends, to ensure women know that it is not something they must simply put up with.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I want to thank you, Jenny, for bringing forward this really important debate today. As a co-submitter and member of the cross-party group on women's health, I fully support discussions on topics like incontinence, which are all too often avoided, as people find it embarrassing. This is of course despite, as has been said today, a significant number of people living with urinary or bowel incontinence, or, in some cases, both.

I'm going to focus my contribution today on bowel incontinence following childbirth. Bowel incontinence can occur as a result of injury to the anal sphincter during childbirth. Whilst the majority of women will fully regain normal bowel function following repair post birth, many women still experience issues with bowel incontinency years later. It's such a taboo subject that it can take a long time for some women to come forward and seek help. Bowel incontinence can have a profound impact on the lives of those living it. It can affect their ability to work, their relationships and their everyday life.

Last October, I attended a meeting at the pelvic health hub in Barry, where I had the pleasure of talking with an inspiring ex-patient turned volunteer and advocate. She had lived experience of bowel incontinence caused by severe injury from childbirth. At the meeting, I also had the pleasure of meeting Julie Cornish, who is a colorectal surgeon based at the University Hospital of Wales, and she has a special interest in colorectal cancer and pelvic floor surgery. Mrs Cornish also headed up the Welsh task and finish group for faecal incontinence, which produced its report in 2019. There were a number of issues highlighted in the meeting. One was regarding the 'Bump, Baby & Beyond' leaflet, which is given to expectant mothers. They felt that it should be updated to include some detail on what to expect regarding bowel function post birth and when and where to seek help. I noticed that this was also mentioned in the Welsh task and finish group for faecal incontinence in 2019. I am keen to know, Minister, if this is something you may consider discussing with Public Health Wales, who I believe produced that leaflet.

Another key takeaway from that meeting was the lack of education regarding what is right and normal when it comes to bowel habits. As I mentioned, some women may have been living with symptoms for many years before approaching their GP. Some women may think it's normal to have a bit of incontinence; that it's a normal consequence of being a woman who has had a child. It's crucial that there is information out there letting them know that this is not normal and that there is help available. This, of course, applies to anyone who is experiencing bowel incontinence not just following childbirth. The help available can include a range of therapies, including physiotherapy, advice on diet and sometimes surgery. Ensuring that GPs are fully aware of how to signpost patients to the appropriate care was another key point. So, I'm keen to know what work is being done to ensure that this is the case.

Before I sign off from this debate, there has been some mention about the closure of public toilets. The consequence of closing public toilets, for people who are in need of those toilets in urgent situations, is that we could also be forcing people into what would be criminal activity, should they find themselves falling short, and urinating in public is, of course, a crime. So, I think we need to look at this in the round. I will urge Members to support the motion. It is crucial, in my opinion, that awareness around all incontinence issues, whether that be urinary or bowel, is raised, and that all individuals who are living with it are given the treatment, help and support that they deserve.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I thank Jenny Rathbone for tabling this motion, and I will be voting for it later on this afternoon or this evening. I think it's such an important issue, and I just wanted to share a bit of my background and the reasons why I've decided to speak on this debate today. I worked for the NHS for 11 years: I supported clients with learning difficulties, some of whom were doubly incontinent; it was the same case in mental health; then latterly, before I was elected to the Senedd, I worked in physiotherapy on the ward. And I've got a three-year-old son and a 10-month-old baby, so I've had a lot of experience in this area.

There are just two things that I think could be practical to help in this debate and in expansion to what Altaf said and what Joyce has also mentioned as well, around public toilets. I think what we can do further in that case is to have the expansion of Radar keys. And if you're thinking, 'Gosh, what's a Radar key?', well it's a universal key that can make disabled toilets and public toilets accessible, whatever time of day or night. So, if somebody is suffering from incontinence, then they can feel a bit more assured, if they're in possession of a Radar key, that they could have their needs dealt with in a more timely manner. They're usually given by social services or occupational therapy, but I think, in terms of the topic of the discussion today around women's health, there is room for that to be expanded into wider society. I can't see any reason why it can't be, because it's quite a cheap method and quite a practical method in achieving some of those aims.

Secondly, because I'd just like to speak on two issues that I think would be really helpful to the debate, is the allocation of incontinence pads in health and social care settings, both in the setting itself and in the communities as well. They're assessed on a needs basis, but the nature of incontinence and bowel and urine habits suggests that no two days are the same. Our toilet habits change for many reasons. I think what would be helpful is if service users had better access to incontinence pads if they need them, and they can have those issues addressed in a timely manner and in a way that isn't too costly. Incontinence pads are very expensive, but I think if they can be assessed better and incorporate some of the realities around people's toileting needs and that they do change on a frequent basis, then I think that could be something achievable.

I'll leave my comments there, because I just wanted to raise those two specific issues. And just to say again that I'm happy to support this motion, and to thank Jenny Rathbone for bringing this important discussion to the Senedd today. Thank you very much.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I would also like to thank Jenny Rathbone for tabling this debate and use the opportunity to highlight an issue that I was naive to until a chance meeting and conversation on the train back home to north Wales. There was couple who boarded the train from Cardiff, and they were unsure if it was the correct one, so we started a conversation. They were going to Cwmbran, and I reassured them it was. I noticed he had a prostate cancer brooch on. He was really open about living with the condition and told me that he needed to wear pads, but it was really awkward for him going to the men’s toilets in the station as there were no bins, and he asked if I could do something about it. He had to carry the soiled pad out of the toilets in a bag, pass it to his wife, who then had to carry it in her handbag to the ladies toilet. He asked if bins could be provided in the men's toilets at railway stations. He said he had asked, but nothing had happened, so asked if I could follow it up for them.

The NHS estimates that around 6 million people across the UK suffer with some degree of incontinence. I raised the issue at a transport focus group I attended as chair of the cross-party group on public transport, and Michelle Roles, who is the stakeholder manager for Wales, raised it with Transport for Wales's stations director. They agreed it's something that they could accommodate. So, they went out to contract and it's being trialled at a number of stations, including Cardiff and Chester. Last week I received an e-mail from Prostate Cancer UK regarding their Boys Need Bins campaign that I hadn't heard about before. This campaign puts the needs of incontinent men at the forefront, and the daily challenge that they experience in finding a male sanitary bin to dispose of their products.

Prostate Cancer UK has been contacted by Transport for Wales following our conversation and they've had conversations now about the recent implementation of bins in both Chester and Cardiff train stations, which was a consequence of the issue being raised by myself via the constituent. And now, I've been asked to support the campaign further. So, thank you, Jenny, for tabling this debate. Unfortunately, I've lost the gentleman's contact information, but he permitted me to take a photo of him and his badge, because he was really proud to stand up and be an advocate for this. I salute him for being so open with me on the train. It goes to show the importance of chance conversations we have with people in the community, on trains or wherever, and that we can make a difference, which is why I got involved in politics in the first place. It's good to have an outcome.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I hadn't intended to speak in this debate, but I felt compelled to do so. We're fortunate in this Parliament that we have, over the years, had a number of Members who are willing to speak from personal experience. I pay tribute today to a number of Members who have spoken about the most personal and have shared their experiences, but we can't allow that to have happened for its own sake. When people do speak out and speak from their own experiences, it has to be in order to pursue change.

I know the health Minister is somebody who has made it a determined effort of her own to embrace the challenges that we face in the area of women's health in particular, although this afternoon we have made it clear that we're not only talking about women's health. So, I just want to take this opportunity to make it clear that, given the cross-party spirit—the unequivocal cross-party spirit of what we've heard in the Chamber this afternoon—we will offer the Government support to take whatever action to make those sometimes small, sometimes greater changes that can make a difference to the lives of people, such as Members of this Parliament. But we're just representatives.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr. I'm hugely grateful to Members for introducing this really important topic of debate for today. As so many have said, incontinence is an issue that receives disproportionately little attention, so it's absolutely worthy of this Chamber's time and focus today.

Many Members have underlined quite how common this issue is, affecting one in five people in the country. And of course, as so many people have said, it's not just women who are affected, it's men and women of all ages, but also children, and there are others who are affected as well. And yet, none of us talk about it. It's still a hugely taboo subject. We've broken the barrier on periods, we've broken the barrier on menopause; I don't think we've really started this debate and we've got to get started on it. If we do nothing else today, we have started this debate in earnest, and I want to give you a commitment today from the Government's perspective that we are going to take this out to communities—we need to get people talking about this. It's got to be a subject that people understand is not something they should be embarrassed about.

The example we were given was that 75 per cent—as you suggested, Jenny—of women won't seek medical attention for their incontinence, irrespective of the severity, despite the fact that it impacts on their life. The stigma around this issue, which makes patients hesitant to seek medical help, I'm afraid, also worsened during the pandemic—people were thinking, 'I don't want to bother them now; we know the pressure they're under'. That means that thousands on people in Wales will be suffering in silence and can be at risk then of secondary infections, and a real danger to their health as a result.

Incontinence is incredibly debilitating for those affected by it, both in terms of the physical limitations and disruption it can place on their work and on their social life, but also the mental suffering and that sense of humiliation and indignity. We know there's an association also between incontinence and dementia, and with an ageing population, there's likely to be a growing number of our population suffering from these double health challenges. So, the taboo and social silence around incontinence compounds the dangers, as the lack of spotlight means that people are largely unaware of how to prevent or to mitigate it. For that reason, public awareness is key, and I think it's a key element of today's motion, from my perspective.

For individuals diagnosed with continence issues, care delivery in Wales is, I think, reasonably effective, and well delivered. We had a national forum that was created in 2006, after the launch of the all-Wales bladder and bowel pathway, and this group has been crucial in establishing a standardised approach in Wales over the last 17 years through publishing and updating national guidance on the provision of incontinence care and representing the issues on numerous national boards. The problem is not enough people are coming forward who need the support. So, the support is there, but they're not coming forward.

The forum is due to publish its newest best practice guidance in June. It has expanded its scope in recent years to be more inclusive of children and adults, recognising that incontinence isn't a condition that exclusively affects the elderly. The forum has been strengthened in recent years by the additional membership of a designated nursing officer from the chief nursing officer's team, forming a continuous link between the group and the Welsh Government, which is, I think, a really valuable relationship, and I think it's unique to us in the United Kingdom. The standardised approach to continence care in Wales is founded on clear care pathways and guidance, involvement of patients in their own continence care plans, consistent pre- and post-registration training, and continence specialist nurses and champions in each health board.

The evidence-based steps that each of us can take to prevent incontinence are well known. They include maintaining a healthy weight; avoiding irritants such as acidic foods, caffeine and alcohol; eating more fibre; not smoking; regular exercise; and practicing pelvic floor exercises. Actions to support people in these areas are featured across a range of existing Welsh Government strategies, including 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales', the Be Active Wales programme for the over-60s, and also will be reflected in the forthcoming women's health plan. I'm really glad to recognise that that was one of the things that we set out. This has got to be one of the things where there's an appreciation that there is an issue here. It does affect men as well, but there's a particular issue that we have to address in relation to women.

Many of you mentioned the availability of public toilets as key as the population gets older, and I'd like to congratulate Carolyn on her campaign. That is a different area of Government, but I'll make sure that I contact the relevant Minister on that. Thank you—[Interruption.] If you'd like, yes.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I completely support, of course, the points being made, but you referred to public toilets. Last November, I led a debate here calling on the Welsh Government to ensure the provision of Changing Places toilets in each county in Wales, and the motion was passed unanimously. Could you incorporate that into the actions you're proposing?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I can't do that because it's not my area, but what I will commit to do is to make sure that I communicate with the relevant Minister to see what follow-up has happened as a result of that debate.

Thank you, Jenny, for giving me homework; I always like Jenny to speak, because I always learn something new from Jenny. So, I'm going to go and have a look at the French model to see what they do there, if there's value for money—let's have a look at that. I'm going to also look at sacral nerve stimulation and what's happening with that. So, thank you for that.

Joyce, I happen to have been sent yesterday an updated version of the Public Health Wales leaflet in relation to pregnancy, so I'll have a look to see if it's there, and if it's not, I will write to Public Health Wales and see if it can be in their next iteration.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Whilst our public health work is relevant to preventing incontinence—anymataliaeth is the Welsh word for incontinence; so, a new word for all of you today—this work is just as relevant to a number of other health conditions. Despite this, because of the taboo and the social silence on this, which we've discussed today, the public might not perhaps be aware that it's also relevant to incontinence. Bearing in mind the national structures that have been established and the amount of work done in this area, I don't think that we need an individual strategy document for this, but I do agree with the motion that we need a more strategic method of raising public awareness of incontinence. Effective communication about cases and the results of incontinence and the steps to prevent and manage the condition will decrease the social stigma and will improve the health of those who have been suffering in silence. So, I want to let you know today that we will be looking at how we can raise that awareness. So, I will be asking my officials to work with the Wales bladder and bowel forum and its stakeholders to draw up options for a public awareness campaign for incontinence. I will be more than ready to write to Members, to share the latest information, as that develops. Thank you very much.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you very much. Thank you, all, for your contributions. I think we have managed to put incontinence onto the map, and this needs to be as big an issue as period dignity, as we need to have incontinence dignity. And it really is a very small ask to ensure that we have bins in every men's toilet, as well as in every female's. It's really not that difficult. They're being collected, in any case, from the women's toilets, so it seems to me that we need to really press on that—that seems to me an early win.

I think the bigger issue around the closure of public toilets, as local authorities have suffered from budgetary cuts, is a much more difficult one, and that's why I think we must involve the wider society, the leisure industry. How can you have a church without a toilet? How can you invite people to go and attend a match or other event that people go to without adequate numbers of toilets? This just has to be a pretty basic thing when you're applying for a licence to lay on an activity. So, I think that it's a whole-system approach to it rather than relying on public services that are only open part of the time, whereas the night-time economy is open all over the place, wherever people are going out.

I was delighted that Joyce has actually visited the pelvic health clinic in Barry, and it sounds amazing, and it's really important that there are these centres of excellence for this level of care, particularly for people who have anal incontinence, because that's such a difficult issue to deal with, and I think if we can get 'Bump, Baby & Beyond' updated, that would be amazing.

Thank you for making the point about the Radar key, Gareth. Yes, it's one issue, and it certainly would be in a place like a railway station, where people could be going there at all hours, and they might not be open if it's unsocial hours. But I think that's quite a clunky solution in the sense that, instead, why can't pubs allow anybody to use the loo? It really isn't a big ask. So, we really do need—. I think Gareth made a really important point about incontinence pads not being available, and people can be caught short. And I know it's more expensive than having period products available, which is widespread now in our schools and other public venues, but, clearly, there are some issues to be worked out around incontinence dignity, particularly in places like hospitals, where people who have those issues go. But you also make a very important point about people with learning difficulties who may never be able to get the continence that most children get, so thank you for that.

Thank you, Sioned, for sharing your personal experiences and really emphasising the importance of educating women on what's going to happen to them when they're about to give birth, because I'm afraid a lot of women think either it's a walk in the park, or it's something they've seen on the television, where you've got a woman up in stirrups—a disaster zone that absolutely should never be happening. But we do need a lot more support for women when they give birth, because that will lead to better outcomes, and we also need a lot more physiotherapy for women, and I know that that's something that can only be done with intervention from the Minister. We had an excellent contribution from the member of the physiotherapy department in Hywel Dda, who are leaders in many of these things. But we need everybody to be operating that level of good practice.

I’m very pleased that you’re going to look at the French model, because traditionally Anglo-Saxon journalists have been very sniffy about the French model, in thinking it’s a superficial issue. It is not, because the action taken to support people when they’re young is what is going to prevent them having much more serious problems when they get older. So, thank you very much for that, and thank you, Rhun, for your contribution to this as well. I’m sure that we can track, in the future, how well we’re doing, and talk about it more often.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections, and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee Report—'Annual report on the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales—2022-23'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 6 is the debate on the report by the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, 'Annual report on the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales—2022-23', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I am pleased to open this debate on the first annual report of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee on the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales.

As Members will know, the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales was established in 2018 as an independent, non-statutory advisory body to the Welsh Ministers. Its primary purpose is to make recommendations to the Welsh Government about Wales's long-term infrastructure needs, initially over a period of five to 80 years. Now, the period covered by this report also marks the first year of the infrastructure commission under the leadership of Dr David Clubb, who was appointed as the new chair in September 2021.

Dr Clubb admitted to the committee that this first year had been a year of two halves. His initial focus was on understanding the brief, developing a strategic approach for the commission's operation, and then setting up the process for recruiting new commissioners. Once appointed, the new commissioners focused on understanding how to work together effectively.

According to Dr Clubb, one of his achievements in this first year was securing the extension of the commission's remit from 30 to 80 years. He told us that this change allows the commission to consider the long-term impact of infrastructure and climate change, ensuring better decisions that will benefit the people of Wales for generations to come.

According to the chair, incorporating the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the climate emergency, the nature emergency and the socioeconomic duty into the commission's remit reflect his commitment to considering the needs of the most vulnerable in society when making infrastructure decisions.

During his first year, Dr Clubb also reduced the number of commissioners from 12 to 8 and established a new deputy chair post. The chair told the committee that the current commission consists of generalists, namely, those who don't have sectoral expertise, but have a general set of skills and can focus on understanding complexities and being reactive to Government and, of course, Senedd consultations.

With a budget of £400,000, the commission has been allocated funds for the first time, and the chair gave some challenging commitments to us around demonstrating value for money. As we continue our scrutiny of the commission, we will examine in detail how the commission can deliver on the chair's commitment that it will make recommendations that will save Welsh society more than the budget allocated to the commission.

We were pleased that the commission has started to develop a strong relationship with its UK-level counterpart, namely the UK National Infrastructure Commission. This collaboration is vital for influencing UK infrastructure investments in Wales and working together on non-devolved economic infrastructure.

Over the next three years, the commission plans to focus on specific themes, such as renewable energy, flooding, and climate resilience. These projects will tackle some of the most pressing challenges facing Wales today and will provide valuable guidance, or course, to the Welsh Government on infrastructure development and environmental concerns.

Now, Members will have seen that the committee's report does not contain specific recommendations for the commission. We felt, as a committee, that it would be premature to do this, and that the committee was not yet in a position to make meaningful recommendations to this new regime. However, of course, we do expect that next year's report will be a different matter, when the work of the commission will have been developed and will have matured. So, with those few comments, I look forward to hearing further comments by Members. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Of course, we know that the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales’s primary purpose is to make recommendations to the Welsh Government about Wales’s long-term infrastructure needs over a five to 80-year period. But, one question I have is: how truly independent is this advice? The chair of the commission has been appointed directly by the Deputy Minister. Welsh Government officials provide secretariat support. And the commission’s remit letter offers support from Welsh Government officials to scope out the commission’s work on renewable energy. So, that evidence points to the fact that the commission cannot be regarded as completely independent.

Now, the Chair has explained that many advisory groups in Wales are funded or supported by the Welsh Government in the same way, but there’s no justification to compare. It highlights that the commission is part of a wider problem that we have with Welsh Government-backed groups. We cannot expect any Minister to be the master of all knowledge, so it is fair to seek some expert advice. However, this isn’t quite what we are looking at here. You are paying £400,000 a year for recommendations from a commission that includes people who are not even sectoral experts. The chair has told us, and I quote:

‘We are more generalist, and that was deliberate’.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it is not in the best interests of Wales. For the Welsh Government to be given advice on renewable energy from experts in the sector, or advice on flooding from experts in the sector, or advice on holding a national conversation on climate-related risks by communication experts—. A commission of generalists are not those experts.

In fact, in the year that it is spending £225,000 on a renewable energy project, it is seeing the appointment of Mace Consult to work on maximising the co-benefits of and managing any tensions that arise from a 2050 renewable Wales; the Centre for Sustainable Energy, the Centre for Alternative Technology and Dulas to work on mid-Wales community engagement; and Arup to work on net-zero infrastructure and strategy—research consultants.

The commission is simply appointing research consultants to do the work for it. The commission is running a single project every year—one that is supposed to be focused on identifying critical issues that need to be addressed by infrastructure in Wales over the long term. Infrastructure is considerably more than flooding and climate change; it is transportation, health services, schools, sewage systems and much more.

The commission could be considered by any business organisation, or by constituents, really, who will look at this and should actually be asking: how much value for money is this commission actually providing, for the benefit of the Welsh Government, for the benefit of us as Senedd Members, and indeed, for the people of Wales? Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Just to make a few comments, picking up on some of the observations made by our excellent Chair of this. It is a very short report, it doesn't have any recommendations within it, because we didn't feel—. This is very much a work in progress, but it was a worthwhile session that we had with the commissioner in front of us to understand some of the changes that he and his team are already putting in place, which I'll remark on in a moment, but also the future direction of this commission.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

But before I begin entirely, just to pick up on the points made by my fellow committee member Janet Finch-Saunders on independence, because it is touched on in the report. The commission here, like several organisations, receives funding from Welsh Government. Well, I used to be the Minister who paid for the entire running of Natural England. Natural England were not shy of directing pointed criticism at me for my decisions, at DEFRA at the time and the whole UK Government. In fact, that's what we set them up to do, so simply because this commission or other agencies are funded by Government does not lead to the conclusion that they have to do the bidding of us. In fact, it's quite the opposite, and I do note, Janet, just to say, that what you've just said is not reflected in the report or the evidence that we heard—the report that we all collectively signed off on—so, I don't want people to think that what you've just said reflects the report that my name is on and your name is on as well.

But just to go on a little bit here, a couple of things that I really welcome in the commissioner's changes that he's already made. He committed to the idea that he wanted to see a change in the make-up of the commissioners, and that he wanted to see greater diversity. In fact, that's been delivered on. It's 50 per cent now women now represented on it it, but greater diversity is a good thing. He's also done some changes so it's not too unwieldy. He's actually reined in the number and he's looked for a mixture of the more traditional infrastructure-type people along with some people who, as he described, think out of the box. I think that's very, very welcome, because, as the Chair was saying, and as we heard in evidence, there's quite a dramatic change in the thinking here, to think ahead now for 80 years. Now, the big risk with that, of course, is 80 years is the never-never; things will change. But his justification for that was quite interesting. He doesn't want to get directly drawn into the things that Janet was just saying, about individual planning issues and so on. What he wants to think is, 'Well, what is the nation, the country, the type of place we want to be looking like not in 10 years or 15 or 20 years, but in that long, long term?' The risk with that, of course, is it's the never-never. The actual benefit of doing that is it's even more of a challenge to Government in how we do transport and planning and the whole provision of well-being and all of that. It's much more longer sighted.

But, when we have him back in front of us next year, we'll be looking for more meat on the bone, particularly on the three areas that we know already that they're going to focus on, and that's renewable energy, right at this moment. I have to say, I welcome very much the focus, the three things underpinning that, so looking at how you maximise the co-benefits and manage tensions that arise from becoming a renewable Wales—very much those issues of how do you deal with those local communities and so on, and the engagement with them so on and so on. That's the second point, particularly in terms of mid Wales community engagement and how this contributes to net-zero infrastructure strategy.

Looking ahead, next year it will be focusing on flooding, and, again, part of that is the engagement, and actually how to engage with communities so that you don't only say to them, 'Well, here are the challenges and here's where we will have—. We cannot defend every community from every eventuality as we face climate change, but what we do want to do is give the toolkit so that we can work with with those communities and so on.' So, again, we look forward to having him back in front of us to explore that further in a year ahead, and, beyond that, climate resilience and what he terms 'existential risk' as well.

Now, just finally, my point on this—it is very much a work in progress, but he's placed his role firmly in looking at this long-term trajectory and the type of approach he will take in challenging Government, not being dependent on Government and kowtowing to Government, but actually challenging Government firmly within the context of the well-being of future generations Act, firmly within climate and nature emergencies and being serious about our obligation not just to this generation, but future generations as well. He does make the point, which I welcome, when he says he hasn't always been so complementary about Welsh Government, but, actually, he says,

'I do think that things are happening now that are considered radical within a UK sense'.

That's a good thing to hear from somebody who, traditionally, historically, has been not afraid to point the finger at Welsh Government for being too shy.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

I'd like to start by saying I welcome this annual report on the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales. It's been around one year, as you said, Llyr, since Dr David Clubb took over as the Chair, and it is clear that a lot has already been achieved. I would also like to thank the other commissioners, Dr Jenifer Baxter, Helen Armstrong, Stephen Brooks, Aleena Khan, Dr Eurgain Powell, Eluned Parrott and Nick Tune for your commitment to this vital work and your absolute wealth of experience, which—as you said, Huw Irranca-Davies—we are actually very fortunate to have.

I'm pleased to see the focus on combating the climate and nature emergencies that we are facing as a society and global community, and I welcome the report's insistence that Wales must reach its net-zero target whilst also working with local communities to ensure that their concerns are properly addressed. As stated in the report, the commission pushed to have the scope of its work extended from 30 years to 80 years, and I don't even know how we're saying this—a twenty-one hundred vision? Two one—. How? I don't know, has that been decided? Two-thousand-one-hundred vision? Which sounds quite strange, as we are all likely to be gone by then, but this is the strategic—[Interruption.] Okay, Alun's still going to be here. But these are the strategic, forward-thinking decisions that we need to be considering, and I'm pleased that you've secured this change. It's positive to see that one future project will be flood mitigation and procuring research to support the commission in providing recommendations for improving the resilience of Wales's infrastructure to flooding by 2050. As the MS for Bridgend, I know first-hand how vital this planning is. In Porthcawl, in my constituency, we are fortunate to have received £6.4 million of Welsh Government and Bridgend County Borough Council funding to defend Porthcawl from flooding and any potential future rise in sea levels. It's going to keep more than 500 homes and over 170 businesses safe as part of the coastal risk management programme. We need to see this addressed and prevented and prepared­ for across Wales.

And finally, I would like to thank the national infrastructure commission for making the work that they do as accessible to the public as possible via your website, by demonstrating innovation in transparency, governance and using open-source software to engage people in challenging topics; for example, your engagement around the roads review, which was particularly popular and saw a lot of people go to your website.

I would also like to commend the commission on using an open-source messaging app that allows the commissioners to communicate very frequently outside of meetings. I'm sure Members from across the Chamber will agree with me that, very often, the work of commissions and committees happens too often outside of their official settings, and that is why I welcome an open-source messaging app that allows for greater transparency between those who hold power and those who do not. I am a big fan of free and open-source software, and I believe that the website exhibits good practice in maintaining information provision whilst respecting user privacy, using no cookies and collecting no user data, by not embedding any commercial feeds or other tools that allow third parties to track visitors, as well as visitors to the site having access to the same analytics that NICW has. I believe that this should be standard practice for citizen inclusion and engagement, and it is clear from the findings of this annual report that the use of this open-source technology has allowed for much more information flow when compared to traditional organisations, and I think that a lot can be learned from this approach. Embracing and promoting innovation, collaboration and transparency in the infrastructure for the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales, and weaving it through all aspects of decision making in Wales, including digital, is crucial, and I believe that this is also demonstrated in the report. I, for one, am very keen to see what the commission does next. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

I was really pleased to read the changes that had been made to the commission's remit by the Chair to incorporate the future generations well-being Act, the climate emergency and the nature emergency, as well as the socioeconomic duty. It was also reassuring to read the acknowledgement in the introduction to the report from the chair and deputy chair that highlights the impact human activities have had on our ecosystems, with insufficient regard for our future generations.

I'm pleased that the Chair said he wants to improve communications and public profile, so that people out there know about the commission and that they can represent their issues, and I'm grateful that it's come to the Chamber today, so I heard more as well about it, so I really appreciate that.

I hope the commission can influence UK national infrastructure investment in Wales, as, so far, Wales has not had consequential funding from HS2, Northern Powerhouse, or broadband infrastructure funding, which could be used to roll out developing technologies such as the Bangor consortium for fibre, and I was wondering how it would connect with those projects that are almost ready to go. Also, in north Wales, there's the priority of railway funding; applications for levelling-up funding to get freight off at Hanson Cement and to build the Deeside industrial station have been rejected twice, so I was wondering how they would connect and know about all those schemes as well. And there is no funding for major asset renewal, and the A494 Dee bridge crossing is also in dire need. I think greater clarification of how the commission relates to other infrastructure bodies would be beneficial, and I'd be grateful if the Deputy Minister could set out how the commission will link into the North Wales Transport Commission, led by Lord Burns, as well as the roads review and major assets review.

There's no mention of the local network, which is the majority of the network, in any document. Public rights of way, pavements and road bridges are all maintained by local authorities, with a backlog of £1.6 billion, according to a 2020 County Surveyors' Society Wales survey, and small businesses also have a necessary dependence on Wales's infrastructure and especially road-based transport, so reliable, well-maintained infrastructure across the whole of Wales is a key concern for SMEs and the wider Welsh economy. These highways are also part of public transport, as they are used by buses, cyclists and pedestrians as well as cars. I think it's vital that these roads are given as much attention as any other part of our infrastructure here in Wales connecting people, as well as broadband and the major infrastructure as well.

Today, I've heard that they're going to look at one topic at a time, so climate change and then looking into flooding, so how will they be looking at all these other aspects as well? Is all that going on in the background while they just concentrate on others each year? So, I'd just like to know more about that as well, if that's possible. Thank you.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I welcome this report, and I actually really do welcome the long-term thinking, because what we build or don't build today, how we construct things, actually will impact on those people who come behind us, picking up on the comment that was made that we might not be here when those structures are built. I don't think Christopher Wren is around any longer either, as a case in point. So, it just gives an idea of the longevity of structures that we leave behind. So, in terms of flooding, and I'm going to focus on flooding, the infrastructure that actually might be needed isn't necessarily any hard structure at all, but we did hear—and you hosted it, Huw, last week—from the Nature Friendly Farming Network about using land in the right way to prevent the water run-off in the very first place. It's about farming practices, where you don't destroy the soil in such a way that it all ends up in the sea, and I'm sure some of you will have seen the videos last night in the Wye. So, it's about all of those things together, Minister, and how you work in partnership to prevent those things that can be prevented, rather than just a focus on hard structures. I'm really pleased to see the mid Wales community engagement on here, because I'm sure it's crossed your desk, as it has mine, Minister, that there is a need to look at whether we do, or whether we don't, and how we do, put a windfarm across that area. That community engagement about going forward is of critical importance. Those are the things that I particularly wanted to say, and I look forward to the next report, but I absolutely support the long-term vision.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank all Members who contributed to that thoughtful discussion about the progress report on the infrastructure commission's work. I think it's fair to say that the overall theme is of a cautious welcome, and I think that is a judicious response. The early signs are encouraging, but of course the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and I think the commission are acutely aware of that, and I'm pleased to hear the positive comments of Huw Irranca-Davies and Llyr Gruffydd on the early work and engagement and evidence given by the commission and the account they've given of themselves.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I'd like to engage, if I might, with Janet Finch-Saunders’s criticism, because I think they're worthy of a proper discussion. I think some are fair, some are not. So, her first question is: how independent is the commission? She cited as her evidence that she thought it was a Welsh Government-backed group, which I thought was a curious categorisation, that the chair was directly appointed, and the commission gets support from Welsh Government officials and the secretariat. Well, some of this is pragmatic. We simply don't have the budget for a large stand-alone organisation with its own experts, its own secretariat, creating another arm's-length body. We just don't have the resources to do that. So, a pragmatic way forward is to set up a sort of brain trust and then use Welsh Government officials, and supplement that with outside expert help as and when needed. I think that is the right approach we have taken, given the resources that we do have, and I think, often, what Janet Finch-Saunders says is somehow divorced from the budget settlement.

On the question of the independence of the chair, I directly appointed Dr David Clubb for two reasons. One was speed. I wanted this commission up and running and urgently getting its act together and looking at the long-term challenges facing us. And secondly, it was because I knew him to be an independent-minded critic, not just of the Welsh Government, but generally he's somebody who has, through a series of posts, I think earned respect right across the political party spectrum and civil society for being somebody who is intelligent, who is expert, and who is willing to push and challenge, and that's exactly what I wanted. So, I did not see the merit in going through a long open competition when I thought, in David Clubb, we had somebody who would give us a hard time and not be afraid to do so. I think that is vitally important. And I would say to Janet Finch-Saunders, if she takes the trouble to look at the direct appointments I've made since becoming a Minister, I have consistently appointed people who are going to be difficult and challenging. I think that is vital, not least because of some of the poor scrutiny we get from the opposition in this Chamber. The Conservative opposition, I should clarify for the record.

I think the criticism of the fact that they're employing experts and they are themselves generalists—I think that's a fair point. It's a point of view. There are a number of models available. I've explained the pragmatic reasons for that. This is a model the commission themselves have decided upon. I think there is merit in it, but I respect the fact that she takes a different view.

I think Sarah Murphy's points on transparency and innovation on engagement are really well made, and tying it to Huw Irranca-Davies's point about the works that the commission have said they're going to be doing in year 3 on a conversation with the public, particularly in areas that are facing coastal erosion, on what the future for those communities is. And I think this is something that NRW and the audit office have called for in the past, and I think this is a really difficult conversation to have with communities under threat, and I think it shows the value of having this infrastructure commission, to play that broker role, that of honest middleman, if you like, to build up a trusted conversation with citizens about some of the choices that we face.

I was keen to refocus the infrastructure commission, particularly around climate change themes. We've been set up as a department to put climate change as the central organising principle of the Government. We know we have got significant challenges to our existing infrastructure from the emissions that are already baked in. I think it's looking increasingly unlikely that we're going to keep within the safe limits of climate change, and we are looking at somewhere between 'dangerous' and 'catastrophic' climate change, based on the United Nation’s terminology, and the infrastructure we have is clearly deeply vulnerable, and the infrastructure we're currently investing in needs to be fit for purpose to both adapt and mitigate from the challenges facing us. So, I wanted to give it a very clear remit to focus on that.

And to respond to Carolyn Thomas's concerns, clearly, they can't look at every single bit of infrastructure that we have. That's not their job; that's the Government's job. Their job is to horizon scan and to give advice and challenge on some of the issues coming towards us. So, yes, of course, she's right, there are issues with local roads, but there are lots of issues that we face with infrastructure, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect the commission to cover everything. They've chosen their priorities, they’ve agreed them with us, we've incorporated as part of the co-operation agreement the focus on flooding, which I think we were very happy to do—a very sensible suggestion. So, I think they're taking a strategic, long-term view, and there will be feed-in to the North Wales Transport Commission and the roads review. One of the things I think they've done well already is innovate in producing blog pieces. So, not just waiting for large, set-piece reports; they did a blog that was well worth reading on the roads review, for example, and it certainly wasn't a pushover job. There was certainly challenge in there, as you'd rightly expect.

So, as I say, consistently the record they're building up of their performance to date is encouraging, and Joyce Watson is absolutely right that nature-based solutions need to be part of the mix that they look at. So, I think the assessment of the committee and of Members that, 'So far, so good', is a fair one, and I know the commission will be looking to critically evaluate themselves as their time develops. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone for this very beneficial discussion. I'll also start with opening remarks with regard to questioning the independence of the commission. The situation of the chair and the commission is no different to many public bodies in Wales, and we all have a view on how appropriate that is, of course. But in terms of the integrity of the chair himself, from my knowledge of him, he is someone who I'm confident will provide challenge to the Government. His background suggests that. We also had a pre-appointment hearing; the Government didn't have to provide that opportunity for us as a committee, but we did accept that, and there was an opportunity there to tackle some of these issues. But, as everyone recognises, time will tell, of course. There will be further scrutiny that takes place over the coming years, and it's 'through their actions we will know them', is it not? Sunday school children might be able to confirm whether that's the right verse. So, we will see what comes, but, speaking as the Chair, I'm confident that we have to be careful, of course, but that's just as valid in this context as in any other context with regard to public appointments in Wales.

And on the point in terms of generalists, there are members from various backgrounds who have been appointed, and the chair explained in his evidence to us as a committee the rationale for having people who would be considered to be, perhaps, traditional infrastructure participants as well as those who come from slightly less traditional backgrounds, but they can always draw in expertise, of course, where it is required.

Huw Irranca-Davies is correct: this is the long-term view here. We're looking beyond today; looking beyond the electoral cycle—'horizon scanning' was the term that the Deputy Minister used—and that goes hand in hand with a clear work programme for the more immediate term. The three major focuses in the first year are on renewable energy, for example. And there are gaps, aren't there, in terms of co-benefits, in terms of managing tensions and community engagement. Our inboxes as Members, I'm sure, reflect a great deal of that. So, there is an important contribution to make in that space.

Other Members—Sarah Murphy, Carolyn Thomas, Joyce Watson—talked about coastal infrastructure; roads infrastructure; railways; bridges; public transport; flood infrastructure. That, of course, very quickly reminds us of how wide-ranging the remit of the commission could be, and the need to focus and to have priorities. Focus is very important, and the relationship and the collaboration with other bodies is vitally important there to ensure, instead of the commission doing everything, that they use the expertise and that they use the information that they have to support, to influence, and to work with a wider range of bodies. That adds value, and it ensures that everyone who's active in this field will keep a weather eye on the future—this futureproofing that sometimes gets forgotten when we're embroiled in dealing with those daily decisions that we have to make.

Thank you to Joyce Watson for reminding us that this isn't just hard infrastructure that we're talking about here. There's a tendency for us to go there, isn't there? 'Concrete is the answer.' No, that isn't the answer every time, of course. That is, if we want to look at more sustainable solutions, more affordable solutions, very often, and more resilient in the long term, then we need to look at things, in the context of floods, such as floodplains, peatlands, tree planting and so on, and that shows the change of mindset that the commission needs to contribute to achieving over the longer term. The Bill on infrastructure consenting is on its way. We very much hope that the commission will play its part as we, perhaps, as a committee, will be scrutinising that Bill.

But these are early days, Deputy Presiding Officer, to conclude. Our role as a committee is to continue to scrutinise the work, continue to ask the questions that Members have been asking in this debate, and there'll be a duty on us as a committee, and on us as a Senedd then, to scrutinise and to assess progress in the coming months and years. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the committee report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Petitions Committee Report—'From Five to Four? P-06-1247 Support trials of a four-day week in Wales'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 7 today is a debate on the Petitions Committee report, 'From Five to Four? P-06-1247 Support trials of a four-day week in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'm delighted to be able to have the opportunity to lead this debate today and to speak to the Petitions Committee report looking into a four-day week trial.

The report follows a petition submitted by Mark Hooper from 4 Day Week Cymru. The petition calls for four-day working week trials in Wales in order to explore its impact and whether this could be considered as a possible approach in the future. The report built on the work being done by businesses and campaigners who've undertaken and supported trials. While this petition specifically called for a public sector trial, it is in fact the private sector that have carried the torch for a four-day week, with trials already taking place in companies across the UK. Deputy Presiding Officer, we took evidence from the 4 Day Week Campaign, which has supported those private sector and third sector trials, and the standout fact was that a four-day week had a positive impact on productivity.

Now, it is important, especially for policy makers, to come to any subject with an open mind and to listen to the evidence in front of us. Many sectors across the United Kingdom are saying the same thing: staff retention and recruitment is a real problem. This cannot be ignored and the solution cannot lie in pushing workers to do more hours for falling real-terms wages. It is my view, Deputy Presiding Officer, that we should be brave enough and bold enough to follow the evidence and be part of the growing moves to start a four-day week trial. We don't have all the levers to do this, but we are able to conduct a public sector trial to help further this conversation.

I would at this point, Deputy Presiding Officer, like to mention that, on this occasion, we have not, as a cross-party committee, been able to reach a cross-party consensus, but have included, in our report, a minority view from Conservative Member Joel James. And I'm grateful to Joel for raising those concerns during our inquiry, and I'm sure we'll hear more during his contribution today. But, as a student of history, Deputy Presiding Officer, they struck me as being remarkably similar to those concerns by those who opposed the introduction of a five-day week and paid holiday leave, to name a few. Maybe these similarities are something those opposing a four-day week trial should reflect on, and I would urge them to engage with those private sector companies and employers who have carried out successful trials across the United Kingdom. Deputy Presiding Officer, the well-being of the people of Cymru is, and should be, always a priority for us as Members of the Senedd.

During our inquiry, we also heard how Iceland trialled a reduction in working time back in 2015, and the results were described as an overwhelming success. Alongside better work-life balance and better mental well-being, reducing the number of days at work also reduces air pollution and carbon emissions and contributes to our response to climate change. It also can enable better shared childcare and improved gender equality for women, who traditionally undertake more childcare responsibilities in families.

Deputy Presiding Officer, as a committee, we recommended that the Welsh Government conduct a pilot, liaising with organisations that have undertaken pilots to reduce working hours and that have implemented them for their own staff. This is a bold step, but one we should not be afraid of. The world of work is changing, and while change is sometimes hard, hard is not a reason to not do it. I am pleased that the Welsh Government has responded positively to our recommendations and is working with the workforce partnership council to consider the issue in hand.

This is the right approach, Deputy Presiding Officer. We have embarked on a social partnership model in Wales, and we should be using it to discuss this and any other changes to the way we work. There is a need to challenge our current work practice and culture and explore new ways to improve productivity and quality of life for our workforce. We cannot face the future saying that we are unwilling to change and respond to the challenges of the labour market.

I very much look forward to hearing the contributions of other Members this afternoon, both of the committee and of the Senedd, and, of course, the Minister’s response. This change is growing in momentum, not only in Wales but across the world, from Iceland to New Zealand. It was only last week that Senator Bernie Sanders called for a 32-hour week in the United States.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Cymru cannot fall behind and should be bold enough to change. I am delighted that the Welsh Government are taking this to the workforce council and look forward to its progress. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

In the first instance, I find it very difficult to justify going forward with this pilot, because I cannot see why potentially tens of millions of pounds of public money should be spent on something that the Welsh Government does not have legislative competence to roll out wholesale. As we all know, we have some very big challenges here in Wales that, in my mind, are much higher priorities to spend public money on. Do we really want to spend this money on helping a select few when we should be looking at improving educational attainment, improving access to hospital, dental and GP appointments, and improving employment outcomes? Indeed, Dirpwy Lywydd, two of the major issues for residents living in my region are air quality and chronic illness, and spending money on pet projects such as this, when we have so many other pressing needs, is ridiculous, and, quite frankly, a dereliction of duty.

What is more, if a four-day working week was actually implemented without a cut in pay in the public sector in Wales, it would simply be a 20 per cent pay rise for a third of the in-work population in Wales at the expense of the rest of the working population in the private sector, who actually generate the money to pay for public services. This is grossly unfair and it would also create a two-tier working environment, where private companies—primarily small and medium-sized businesses that could not afford to match these working hours—would find it disproportionately hard to recruit and retain staff.

I can see how working fewer hours can be positive to some people's personal health and well-being, but the idea of imposing a strict four-day working week is extremely limiting, because it cannot be rolled out across all sectors without taking on more staff to keep the same level of public service. The cost to the public purse, as already highlighted, would also be truly enormous. Studies have shown that, where four-day working weeks have been adopted, a 20 per cent drop in availability of public services causes more harm than good for the rest of the population. Proponents of the four-day working week, in my mind, are blinded to the negatives of such an approach because they can only perceive overwhelming positives.

We have to bear in mind that the four-day working week approach has been trialled extensively, and, whilst it has worked for some, it most certainly hasn't worked for everyone. Indeed, I think I could spend the entirety of the time allocated to this debate explaining why introducing a four-day working week trial is not only short-sighted, but doesn't achieve the outcomes that it claims, and cite studies right across the world, including Japan, Belgium, the United States, where these trials have categorically failed. But unfortunately, Dirprwy Lywydd, I only have five minutes.

Many people have found that the push to complete the amount of work in four days instead of five has led to a considerable drop in teamwork and collaboration, as employees are so focused on getting their tasks done in a tighter time frame, and it has made workloads overall less manageable. Moreover, younger people starting out in their careers will have considerably less opportunity to network with colleagues and get to know those people who will be instrumental in their careers. This damages potential for their future. This is heightened more by the sheer amount of public sector workers who are still working from home.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thanks for giving way. I just wonder what your thoughts would be on Sony Pencoed. Sony Pencoed don't operate a four-day week—they operate a four-and-a-half day week. They finish early on Fridays, and always have done for years, because they've seen the increase in productivity and the attraction in terms of recruitment to young people. Do you think they are missing something here?

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

My view has always been that if the private sector want to do this, they're fully entitled to, but if it's the public purse, I think there are higher priorities that we should be spending our money on.

While the loss of those soft skills may seem like a negligible point to some people, they are in fact essential for workers in many industries. It seems obvious to me that this drive for wholesale shorter hours has many potential disadvantages that are just being ignored.

Furthermore, I find two aspects of the justification for introducing a four-day working week quite bizarre—firstly, that it should be introduced because high numbers of workers would support such a change. This is specious reasoning. Who in their right mind wouldn’t take a reduction in working hours for the same pay? This is ultimately an invalid argument to justify a four-day working week.

Secondly, there is the idea that this productivity gain will essentially allow workers to reduce their hours, but there are so many different ways of measuring productivity depending on the type of work people are doing that there’s no standardisation across the workplace, so a trial will not accurately produce any meaningful data that could be extrapolated across all sectors. What I mean here is that the productivity of a teacher would be measured differently to that of a nurse, and this would be measured differently to a council employee processing job applications, for example—and so on.

In addition, there are also many external factors that affect productivity that cannot be controlled by an organisation, which means that 90 per cent workforce productivity one week could easily look like 60 per cent productivity the following week. What also concerns me is that higher productivity for prolonged periods also leads to burn-out and people enjoying their jobs less. We have seen this in the NHS with the COVID pandemic; this drive to work people harder for shorter periods is just not conducive to a healthy working life.

I’m conscious of the time, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I’ll just close. Whilst I and my group will note the report today, in truth I believe that what we need in our workforce is additional flexibility given to employees throughout the working day to help them better balance the needs of family and health and to make work and the working environment a more positive aspect within people’s lives. Thank you.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

First, I'd like to thank the clerks for putting the report together, to thank the Chair for his diligent chairing of our evidence sessions, as well as the petitioner, Mark Hooper, who I know is really passionate about this particular cause.

There have been a number of changes and considerations in recent years around why we need to rethink the world of work. COVID, of course, was the biggest influence, but even post pandemic we see emerging challenges through automation and artificial intelligence. These are changes that are coming, they're going to happen, so it's important now for us to rethink our day today, and it's important that everyone benefits from these changes to the workplace, not just the companies who will ultimately benefit on the back of reduced labour costs and, therefore, the workers. I know it's a scary proposition to have to think about a different way of doing business, but the Chair pointed out that doing something that's hard isn't a reason not to do something, and I'd add to that that doing something scary is not a reason not to do something. Let's be clear: no move to a four-day work week should mean a reduction in pay or workplace rights.

The benefits of reorienting to a four-day working week are becoming ever more apparent. It is unsurprising in this respect that the model has become increasingly popular since Plaid Cymru led a debate on this issue back in September 2021. For example, we've heard about Iceland—well, on Iceland, following a nationwide trial from 2015 to 2019, nearly 90 per cent of the working population are now on reduced hours or other accommodations. A 2022 trial involving 12 Irish companies yielded similar positive results. Nine of those 12 companies have committed to continuing with a four-day work week schedule, while the other three have provisional plans to follow suit.

In the UK, a recent trial of the four-day working week, involving 2,900 employers in a wide range of sectors, led to 91 per cent of the participating organisations opting to continue the arrangements, and a 35 per cent average boost in revenues. The feedback from employees also conclusively affirmed the well-being benefits that can arise from the four-day working week model. Those surveyed as part of the Irish scheme reported significant reductions in stress, burnout, fatigue and work-family conflict.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for taking the intervention. I think that you cited the Iceland trial, but also the UK trial. But you know that, with the UK trial, those companies—. You mentioned that there was a wide range of companies. I would hasten to add that I don't necessarily think that there was. They were all in similar employment areas, in terms of financial services, IT industries. Don't you foresee that there is an issue, then, in rolling that out into other companies—small and medium-sized enterprises? With the Iceland model, that wasn't necessarily a four-day working week. That was just bringing their hours in line with the rest of Europe. So, I think that there's an issue, to be using that as a four-day example.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thanks for that intervention, Joel. It's for the exact reason that you set out there that we are asking for a pilot here. We are asking for a pilot in the public sector. There also is further work that needs to be done around a pilot in other sectors as well, in the private sector. The challenges are going to be very clear as these pilots roll out. As I mentioned before, yes, it is a scary concept to move to something that we are not used to. But again, through the pilots, we can understand whether or not this is the right way forward for us. I tend to believe that it is.

Those surveyed, of course, in the Irish scheme reported significant reductions in stress, burnout, fatigue and work-family conflict. They also reported, actually, an increase in average sleep, from 7 hours a night to 7.72 hours a night. That might not sound like a massive increase, but I think that a lot of us in this Chamber would appreciate an extra 0.72 hours of sleep. There was more time spent doing hobbies, which includes exercise, and a greater inclination for pro-environmental behaviour. The UK trial also demonstrated potential benefits in terms of workforce retention, with 50 per cent of employees indicating that they would be less likely to quit their jobs if a four-day working week was implemented on a permanent basis. And in terms of productivity, there was a 49 per cent improvement across all employees.

The case for introducing a pilot scheme here in Wales is overwhelming, and we wholeheartedly support the recommendations of the Petitions Committee to the Welsh Government in this respect. We hope that a pilot among the public sector can inform more comprehensive initiatives, which can extend into the private sector in future. I think that it is promising that the Government is going to explore the possibility of a pilot via the workforce council, and rightly so. It's important that we have trade unions feed into this particular project, but the work needs to happen sooner.

I will end, Dirprwy Lywydd, by not only reiterating the call for a public sector pilot. I would also like to see a particular move by us here in the Senedd to look at our own offices. I am now currently exploring the opportunity of piloting a four-day work week in my office, and I would welcome Members' support in doing that here today as well.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

In an article for Nation.Cymru before I was elected, I suggested that we should think about the new Wales that we wanted after the lockdown and how we could go about creating a fairer society. A number of people often talk about John Maynard Keynes's views back in the 1930s, that we would be working far fewer hours by the year 2000 because of technology. But that didn't happen. It happened until the 1970s, but then it came to a sudden stop. Post-COVID-19, it appears that a number of people are working more hours than they were before the pandemic.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

During the pandemic, what was considered unique beforehand became the norm, and what was considered ordinary became otherwise. History has shown that things considered unthinkable can quickly become the status quo. We must take this opportunity, in 2023, to consider and discuss what appeared impossible at the beginning of 2020. This is why I believe that the Welsh Government must develop a pilot to reduce working hours within the devolved public sector, with no loss of pay for employees. This isn't a revolutionary concept, despite what others across the Siambr feel and say. This week, everybody across the UK had a four-day week. The only times that the Tories haven't complained about a four-day week are when we have royal celebrations. Well, if it's good enough for then, what about good enough for every week?

The Tories have opposed many improvements that we now take totally for granted. They opposed the expanding of the vote to the working classes, they opposed weekends, they opposed bank holidays, they opposed minimum wage, and now they are trying to restrict the right to strike after already restricting the right to vote in England. So, it is no surprise that the Conservatives should oppose this common-sense approach. However, it is a real shame that the Welsh Government, in their response to the petition started by Councillor Mark Hooper, have said that they have no plans to develop a pilot. This pilot would include a reduction to the maximum working week from 48 hours to 32 hours.

Gweinidog, is it time now to think differently about this issue? Think of the contrast you will make with Conservative Ministers in Westminster, those who, according to the right-wing press today, want to overhaul the EU working time directive that limits many workers to 48 hours a week on average.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

The minority report by the committee argues that the Senedd does not have the legislative competence to legislate in this field. This surprises me a great deal. And, has the Minister received legal advice on this matter? The minority report states that:

'The arguments for the four-day working week are not supported by sufficient research data on improving productivity'.

But without a pilot, how can we secure these data? What do we have to lose from not holding a pilot? I can't understand the argument that a small pilot could cause division and injustice in our society. I don't understand the argument. And, as the Chair of the committee suggested in opening the debate, the same argument could have been deployed against weekends and bank holidays.

As Luke Fletcher said—he organised a panel event back in March, and the event was very interesting—the statistics shared by Dr David Frayne from Cambridge University were staggering. These results showed that 56 of the 61 companies that took part are continuing with a four-day working week—92 per cent of those companies. The four-day working week can succeed in every sector, including the care sector, where there is a need for care to be provided 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Indeed, a four-day working week could make certain sectors much more attractive than they currently are.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

To return to the public sector, a recent trial in South Cambridgeshire District Council saw performance being maintained over the three-month period of the trial. The survey data has also shown that the trial has been overwhelmingly positive for staff. If the public sector can do it in South Cambridgeshire, a district council with far less power than the Senedd, why not Wales?

The status quo is not sustainable for improving productivity, to deal with the recruitment crisis and retention issues within many sectors in Wales. Indeed, we are often reminded of these problems by Conservative colleagues in the Siambr. Why not support, therefore, a small trial to see if a four-day week can be part of the solution?

The workers in Ebbw Vale paved the way for the NHS and inspired Aneurin Bevan. They didn’t wait for a pilot elsewhere. Robert Owen from Newtown started the co-operative movement—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Rhys, you have to conclude now.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

—he didn’t wait to see if others succeeded first. And the same is true about Lloyd George and Jim Griffiths. What we are suggesting, as a committee, is not radical, it is a pilot, it is a trial—a trial that I am sure will spark many more debates, but would, at the very least, give the data that the Tories are requesting. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's always a pleasure to follow on from Rhys ab Owen, and the arguments that he was making. I think it's important—I don't often contribute to many of these debates on a Wednesday afternoon—but I think it's important that we actually use this opportunity to share some experience and to share what we have found in our lives and the experience that we bring to these things. And one of the things that I've found, living through the pandemic and the changes that we've seen to the way in which we work, is that, when we look at the future, it's going to be very different to the past, and we need to be far more flexible and far more creative in how we meet these new challenges.

I listened to Joel James speaking in his remarks earlier. I thought that he was going to end his speech by opposing the 1833 factory Act, because he seemed to object to every single progressive piece of legislation that we've seen in recent years that improves the lives of people. And, do you know—I don't know what experience you have, Joel—but I've been a senior manager in businesses, I've been a senior manager in public bodies and I've run my own business, and I've had to recruit people, and I've had to demonstrate why they should work for me and with me rather than working for them, or our competitors. I've had to actually demonstrate how we can build a business and run a business. I don't know what experience you have, but let me tell you this: the most important resource any business has is the people that it employs, the knowledge they acquire and the productivity that they deliver. And when I've been recruiting people—in the real world, Joel—when I've been going out to adverts and asking people to work with me, for me and employ people, what I've been trying to do is to put together a package that provides them with the opportunity to do what they wish to do as well as delivering for the business that we are running. And what that tells me is that the package that you put together—

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Will you take an intervention?