Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 21 June 2022

893 contributions from 29 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on the agenda.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item is questions to the First Minister, and the first question today is from Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to enhance healthcare provision in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ58240

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. Amongst the actions taken by the Welsh Government is reform of the dental contract to enhance access to NHS care. Despite claims to the contrary, over 90 per cent of NHS-funded dentistry in the Member's constituency will now be provided by practices that have chosen to adopt the new contract.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, First Minister. It's actually GP surgeries that I'm going to be going in on today rather than dentistry. Yesterday evening, I had the pleasure of meeting the patient participation group of the Argyle Medical Group surgery—a collection of patients who are there to influence and advise both the staff and the wider patient community on the challenges and opportunities facing the surgery. As I've mentioned in this Siambr before, the surgery serves over 22,000 patients while employing only six registered GPs, but each one of those staff members goes above and beyond in their care for their patients. Whilst recruitment is always a welcome prospect, with possible positive news on the horizon on that front, Argyle and other rural GP surgeries will attest to the difficulties in recruiting medical practitioners to rural surgeries. Therefore, can the First Minister outline what he and his Government are doing to support rural surgeries in the recruitment and retention of GPs and other healthcare professionals, such as physiotherapists, nurse practitioners and pharmacists? And in recruiting those healthcare professionals, what work is the Welsh Government doing to educate patients that they don't always have to be seen by a GP to get fast and effective treatment? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, can I thank Sam Kurtz? I so much agree with the points he made at the end of that question. It's been a theme for me, ever since I was the health Minister, that the future of primary care in Wales has to be a team of professionals, often operating under the supervision of the GP, the person with the highest level of qualifications in that team, but where all those members, the pharmacists and others that he mentioned, are perfectly clinically capable of providing services direct to the patients, and sometimes more quickly and sometimes even more effectively than the generalist, the GP, will be able to do. So, I absolutely congratulate the GPs in the surgery that Sam Kurtz has mentioned. I congratulate them on having that patient participation group. We've debated that on the floor of the Senedd a number of times, wondering whether, on the model of our school councils, we ought to have an expectation that all GP practices should have a forum where they learn directly from the views and experiences of their patients. I think the last time we visited this the conclusion was that it works well where you've got GPs who are keen on the idea, and it's hard to generalise into places where maybe there's less enthusiasm for it. But, where it works, I think it brings a really powerful perspective to people who provide services by learning directly from those who are receiving them.

As to the question about investment in future workforce, as Members here will know, we've had a very good experience in the last couple of years in recruiting GPs into training practices here in Wales. Those numbers have exceeded the threshold that we set last year and the year before, and we are doing very well to include in those training practices additional practices in rural parts of Wales. I feel confident that the general principle there is one that stands up to examination—that if you go and train somewhere, and you spend time there, it increases the chances that that is where you will want to work permanently. And it's why, of course, we are committed to a new medical school in north Wales, which will result in not simply GPs, but that wider range of health professionals being trained directly here in Wales and able to go on doing the good work that Sam Kurtz referred to this afternoon.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that the necessary infrastructure is in place to meet housing development needs in Cardiff? OQ58213

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, Cardiff Council is responsible for these issues. The authority must operate within the framework noted in 'Planning Policy Wales', as has been previously reported to this Senedd.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, First Minister. I was very pleased to read the report on the creation of a metro between Llantrisant and Cardiff, and I agree entirely with you, and with the Counsel General, about the importance of that scheme. The difficulty of course is that it's going to take 10 years to build, and, as you know, thousands of people have moved to new homes in the north of the city, with the driveways of these homes with several cars in them. The public transport provision isn't sufficient in that part of the city. Another concern that has been raised recently by residents in north Cardiff is the new sewage pumping station in historic Hailey park. How can we ensure that vital provisions are in place before constructing new major developments, First Minister? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, thank you to Rhys ab Owen for that supplementary question. I must be careful in keeping that separation between what I do as the Member for Cardiff West and my ministerial responsibilities here in Wales. Just to be clear, neither myself nor the Counsel General will participate in any decision on the possibility of redesigning the rail line from Cardiff West to the Pontypridd constituency. Generally speaking, there is a lot of work ongoing in Plasdŵr, in terms of bus provision and also in planning for those who want to cycle from their homes to work. And I know that Cardiff Council has plans in place, and they are consulting at the moment in Llandaf, in order to extend the system that we already have, and to take that out to Plasdŵr, to help people to come in to the city in that way. The city of Cardiff, Llywydd, is redesigning their LDP, and, as they do that, they will, as I said in my original response, have to work within the statutory process that we now have here in Wales. That's what the plan that we put out to local authorities says.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It's in the development plan's manual. Infrastructure plans must be prepared that clearly set out what infrastructure is required, the broad cost and timing, as well as funding sources. Llywydd, Cardiff Council did submit a set of master plans, alongside its LDP, back in 2016. But the provision of an infrastructure plan, as part of its replacement LDP, will now be a statutory requirement, and that will help at least to respond to the points that Rhys ab Owen has raised this afternoon.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

First Minister, on 8 January 2019, Huw Irranca-Davies asked you about what this Government was doing to ensure that the transport infrastructure is definitely in place to enable the grand plans for new housing in Cardiff and south Wales, to help create, in his words, hundreds and hundreds of happy home owners, not grumpy, gridlocked constituents. As you may recall, you responded that the Welsh Government had legislated to create the conditions in which local authorities can come together to create strategic development plans, and that you were pleased to see, last year, the Cardiff capital deal authorities coming together to develop such a plan for a wider area, and that you looked forward to seeing how, in 2019, that intention turned into practical action. Well, three years later, we can clearly see that the legislation that this Government created has helped Cardiff turn into a city with many, many grumpy, gridlocked constituents, and it's clearly not working. The infrastructure situation in and around Creigiau and Radyr is dreadful at best, and, as you will be well aware, it is exacerbated by the fact that the new housing developments do not have sufficient amenities, meaning that residents have to drive to access schools, health facilities, shops and such, which further aggravates the situation. In addition, bus services are awful. They are removing more and more services in the area—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You're going to need to come to a question, please, Joel James.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Say that again, sorry. This isn't—[Inaudible.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You're going to need to come to a question.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

No worries. First Minister, why is it this Government cannot create legislation that ensures sufficient amenities, public transport and infrastructure are put into place before house building is allowed? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I thank the Member for the interest he too takes in the Cardiff West constituency. I give him the assurance that I will report his views to the elected Member and that they'll be taken with the seriousness that they merit, including all the work that goes on to ensure that there are the amenities there that need to be provided for a population of the sort that has chosen to go and live in the Plasdŵr development. Far from being 'grumpy' citizens of Cardiff, as the Member suggests, these are people spending many thousands of pounds voluntarily to take up the opportunity that's been created for them.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I just wanted to focus on the planning infrastructure around housing developments. I was very disappointed to learn that Cardiff Council has given planning approval for 700 homes on the old Brains site, just south of Cardiff Central station—a 29-storey development—and the only contribution to social housing is £600,000 for homes to be built elsewhere. Well, that equates to about five homes. So, I just wondered what plans the Welsh Government might have to strengthen the obligation to house not just the people who can afford to buy houses, but those who are waiting on the housing waiting list.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the decision to go ahead with housing on the old Brains site is, of course, a welcome one, because it means that housing is happening on a brownfield site and in the inner city part of Cardiff, where we know demand for housing is significant. But I do agree with what Jenny Rathbone has said: that it is for local authorities to make the maximum use they can of the arrangements that are in place there for them to ensure that developers make a significant contribution to the future housing needs not simply of people who will be able to afford to buy properties on that site, but to the general effort that needs to be made to increase the supply of affordable social housing of a good standard here in Wales. I commend Cardiff city council for everything they are doing to build council housing in the city for the first time in a very long time, but other opportunities also need to be seized.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the country today is gridlocked because of the rail strikes, the biggest strikes since the 1980s. Do you support the strikes, First Minister?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, there are no strikes in Wales. There is no dispute between Transport for Wales and the trade union. Where I am responsible for these things, workers are not on strike, because of the way in which the Welsh Government acts on a social partnership basis to bring people round the table together to make sure that conversations take place and solutions are reached. How very different from the entirely absent UK Government, who abandon their responsibilities and mean that thousands of people are unable to travel due to the dereliction of duty that is so apparent in their approach to industrial relations.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Nothing like winding up the payroll vote to the unions is there when your own are banging their desks? I didn't hear them banging their desks when they were supposed to be standing up for their constituents who were stuck on trains that couldn't provide a service from Transport for Wales. And when you go to Cardiff Central station today, or the rail network in north Wales or mid Wales, there are no trains running, First Minister. I do note that you didn't say that you supported the strikes, which is to be welcomed, First Minister, but surely, in an era when we need the public transport system to come back to life after COVID, we need to move away from the 1950s working practices and move into the 2020s—practices that see people not sharing vans to get to the same site to work, practices that rule on not using drones for health and safety, or the ability to use apps on phones to send messages to workers who are in vulnerable locations. Surely you'll agree with me on that, First Minister—that working practices do need updating in our railways, whether that's in Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, so that we have a safe and reliable rail network.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, let me explain to the leader of the opposition why trains aren't running in Wales: it's because his Government has created a dispute with Network Rail, and Network Rail have removed some of the staff, who could have been available to make trains run in Wales, in order to keep trains running in England. I wonder if he supports that measure, which was a decision of his Government, to deny people in Wales the opportunity to travel—where there is no dispute—by removing those workers to look after what clearly is for them a higher priority than Welsh citizens will ever be.

The trade unions—Llywydd, of course the trade unions want to negotiate and want to negotiate on safe working practices for the future, but the safe working practices. When you look at what Network Rail is currently proposing, I wouldn't want to be travelling on a train with a driver that has just worked for 16 hours in a row. I wouldn't want to be on a train where I couldn't be confident that the safety arrangements and signalling boxes are what they need to be.

Llywydd, any dispute in the end is only ever settled by negotiation. What I want to see is the UK Government using the power that it has, the convening power that it has, the muscle of the funding arrangements that it has, to get people around the table and to make sure that those talks resume and head towards an agreed conclusion. It is the absence of the UK Government and their refusal to exercise those responsibilities that is responsible for the issues that people face while trying to travel today.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

First Minister, you clearly haven't been keeping up to date with what the general secretary of the RMT has said, where he's said on record that he would not negotiate with a Conservative Government, which does seem odd considering they've got a mandate to govern—[Interruption.] I appreciate the payroll vote are getting quite agitated, and I'm sure that the constituency Labour parties will get the donations they deserve—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay, okay, okay. We're clearly—. There are a lot of us back in the Chamber—only two people on Zoom today—and I'm hearing the effect of it around me. [Laughter.] But, I do also need to hear the leader of the opposition, so if we can carry on with the question.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

There are nurses, there are students looking to do their exams, there are businesses who cannot get employees into their place of work, who are suffering because of this strike action. So, we might disagree on various points, First Minister, but do you agree with me on this salient point: that when strike action is called—and I respect the right to call strike action, because that's a fundamental part of democracy—that there should be minimum levels of service guaranteed on key transport infrastructure? Do you believe that is a critical part of what a modern transport system requires in the twenty-first century, rather than 1950s working practices, which you seem so able to defend?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, this strike has been called against the extraordinary levels of consent that are required by Tory party legislation. For unions to be able to mount a strike today, they had to move through a series of hurdles that his Government has placed in their path. Now he wants to place further hurdles in the path of people. That's not part of the arrangements that his Government has put on the statute book. Let him speak to his Government. The rules that the trade unions are operating under are your rules. Now you want to change the rulebook, of course.

But, I do say this to the leader of the opposition: I have tried in my answers this afternoon to emphasise the fact that consensus is the only way in which disputes are ever resolved. He would be better adding his voice on that side of the argument, rather than echoing the deliberately provocative language that this Government in Westminster uses. It wants a fight with the unions, it provokes a fight with the unions, and that is in nobody's interest at all.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Llywydd. I have to say, in the week where thousands of flights have been cancelled and the railway network has ground to a halt and petrol prices have gone up yet again, the Tories deciding to go on transport in First Minister's questions and in their opposition motion this week is a very courageous choice. They say the transport network in Wales is not fit for purpose. What they omit to say is that it's failing because of their Westminster Government, and the rail strike is a perfect example of that: services are able to run from Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil to Radyr, where they stop, because that's the bit of the railway infrastructure that we control ourselves here in Wales, where there is no dispute, because we in Wales believe that treating workers with decency is part and parcel of providing a decent public service. Isn't that yet another argument—? And, what you've shared just now, First Minister, about Network Rail prioritising England over Wales yet again, isn't that an argument yet again for devolving powers fully over rail to Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the leader of Plaid Cymru is absolutely right that the reasons that we do not have—[Interruption.] I understand that denial is the first refuge of the Welsh Conservative Party, and they're busy at it this afternoon. The reason why there are no trains south of Radyr is because of decisions being made by non-devolved bodies. The reasons why there are no trains at all in north Wales is for the same reason. It is time that the UK Government and Network Rail treated Wales with the respect that we deserve, and recognised that we don't have a dispute going on here in Wales, and yet, because of their actions, trains that could be running today are not running.

The leader of Plaid Cymru reminded us of Grant Shapps. There's a name—I see some Members here recognise it. But it is a remarkable triple whammy, isn't it, to have brought the railways to a standstill, to have brought the airports to a standstill, and, finally, after about eight weeks, I think, to have woken up to the fact that the 5p that was taken off the price of petrol hadn't been passed on to people in that part of the transport sector as well. It is a remarkable record of failure, and I'm afraid that it's people not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom who are paying the cost of that failure today.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

In relation to the devolution of railways, I think it is important that we have a clear position on that here in Wales, but also from the UK Labour Party as well, that have been at best ambiguous, and, in fact, supported an integrated UK railway at the last election.

Now, in Westminster's rail crisis, there seems to be a competition between politicians to see who can be the most invisible. Is it Grant Shapps refusing to sit down with the rail unions, or is it Keir Starmer banning his shadow Cabinet from the picket lines and berating them for speaking out in favour? I was at an RMT picket line this morning—proud to be there expressing my solidarity with workers fighting for jobs and decent pay and conditions. At a time when trade unions and workers are being demonised, being turned into scapegoats, being vilified to distract attention from Boris Johnson's many failures, isn't it even more important that we show them our support? So, can you confirm that Mr Starmer's prohibition does not apply to your Cabinet members, and will you yourself, First Minister, visit a picket line as a symbol of your solidarity and support?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, no inhibition exists on members of my group demonstrating their support for the trade union movement. Keir Starmer is in a very different position. He knows perfectly well that if he were to sanction that, the story would never, ever be, would it, about support for the trade union movement; it would be the Tories succeeding in their wish to portray this as somehow an example of the country returning to days that have been left far behind. So, in our context, where we have a partnership approach with our trade unions, where we don't have a dispute with our trade unions, of course members of the Labour Party here in Wales are able to demonstrate their support for our trade union colleagues, but we operate in a different context and we come to different conclusions for very good reasons.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Faced with the mounting cost-of-living crisis and a stagnating economy, the return of 1970s-style stagflation, we have a Westminster Government that thinks the appropriate response to this crisis is to cut workers' wages even further—a return to the dogma of the 1930s. It's no wonder that teachers and nurses are considering strike action. It's perhaps a sign of the times that even barristers have voted for strike action, which should ring alarm bells even with this cloth-eared Government. I think it was a strike by the Parisian order of barristers, I seem to remember, that sparked the French revolution. If England is to have its summer of discontent, can we contrast that here in Wales, within those areas that we control, with a summer of solidarity, and heed, for example, the call from the health unions for a pay deal that, at a minimum, keeps pace with soaring inflation?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, let me agree with the first part of what the leader of Plaid Cymru said, because in the dispute we see in the rail industry and the ballots we see for strike action in other parts of the public services, we are reaping the whirlwind of 10 years of austerity. I think of the time and time again that Members of the Conservative benches here supported and defended that policy—that policy, which has kept wages down, which has refused to give people pay increases, and which means that, in every street here in Wales, we have families who are worse off today than when his party came into power in 2010. And when you add in rampant inflation and a Chancellor that's lost control of the economy, then there's no doubt at all that these actions are being stimulated by that compound economic failure.

The position in Wales, in relation to pay in the public sector, however, is part of the problem created by the Conservative Government. We get a fixed sum of money each year. If we are to pay some workers more than we are funded to pay them, there is nowhere for us to go. We cannot raise money ourselves to add to that. We cannot raise money ourselves—[Interruption.]

I'm very interested indeed. Llywydd, people listening will not have heard the leader of the opposition advocate putting up the taxes of people here in Wales in order to pay for people's wages because that is what he just did. He said to me that we should put up taxes in order to pay for wage increases. [Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, no. No point of order. I also heard you say it. [Interruption.] No, no. Let's carry on and, at some point soon, we'll come to the River Wysg and that will calm everybody down. I can't remember what Wysg—.

The First Minister's finished or—?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, as I have explained, for us to put up the wages of people, as we would like to, as they deserve, we would have to take that money from some other part of the Welsh Government budget, and Members here will know just how stretched that budget is. It's worth £600 million less today than it was on the day that the Chancellor declared it back in November. The answer is that the UK Government has to come to that table, has to be prepared to fund those settlements properly, and then people who work in our public services will be able to be paid in the way that they deserve and we would wish to see.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Now we come to the question on the River Usk.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve water quality in the River Usk catchment area? OQ58199

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Peter Fox for that question. Water quality in the Usk faces multiple risks ranging from climate change and industrial and agricultural pollution, to faulty septic tanks and wastewater discharges. Welsh Government provides direct investment and sets the regulatory framework, but effective improvement will depend on co-operation across a range of different organisations and individuals.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, First Minister, for your response, and water quality is a significant issue for communities right across the country and Members in this Chamber. Only last week we were debating the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee's findings on the subject, and their report made for sobering reading. Tomorrow, we'll be debating the same committee's report on Natural Resources Wales, which raises questions about their progress on measures to monitor and manage water pollution. Recently, in Usk, hundreds of local residents marched in protest and made it clear that they've had enough of seeing the River Usk polluted as it currently is, and they demand action.

I acknowledge and welcome that steps are being taken by Welsh Water in particular to reduce the impact of overflows on the Usk and surrounding catchment area. The upcoming work on the Usk pumping station, as well as the planned installation of additional phosphorus strippers, are a step in the right direction, but regulation is fundamental to lasting change. First Minister, do you have confidence that the regulators have the capacity and are taking sufficient action to tackle these issues on the Usk, and, indeed, all Welsh river catchments? First Minister, what message can you give to reassure communities in the Usk catchment that the Government is on top of this situation?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Peter Fox for his recognition of the actions that are being taken by Dŵr Cymru on the Usk in response to the concerns that have been expressed by local residents. As Peter Fox will know, it's a three-phase programme of work, with £10 million to be invested. Phase 1, the work at the Usk sewer pumping station, is already under way, and due to be completed by the end of November, then with further works to continue over the next two years.

In terms of regulation, Llywydd, in preparing for today's questions, and the question that comes later on the order paper from Laura Anne Jones, I discovered—because this is not always my main source of expertise—that drainage and wastewater planning is the only area without a statutory status in the water sector. So, when it comes to the quinquennial reviews carried out by Ofwat—the price review—the risk is that drainage and wastewater planning doesn't receive the same level of priority as other aspects that do have a statutory obligation behind them. The Welsh Government has secured powers through the UK Government's Environment Act 2021 to bring regulations in front of the Senedd to put those drainage and wastewater management plans on a statutory basis here in Wales. We're currently piloting those management plans on a non-statutory basis. We'll learn as a result of doing it—this is the way that industry have asked us to proceed—and then we plan to introduce the regulations in front of the Senedd next year, in 2023. That will mean that those plans will be on a statutory basis here in Wales in time for the next Ofwat price review in 2024, which means that they will have to be taken equally seriously with the other obligations that Ofwat weighs up when it's coming to its conclusions.

I hope that that will provide some assurance to residents in the Member's constituency that, as well as the investment that is being put in place, the regulatory framework is also being strengthened here in Wales in order to tackle what I entirely agree with Peter Fox is a very serious issue that requires action across a range of organisations and individuals.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 4, Altaf Hussain.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Let—. Ah, there you go.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Yes, I can speak now.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to deliver first-class school education in Wales? OQ58197

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Can I thank Altaf Hussain for that question? From September this year, this Senedd’s new curriculum will be a reality in 95 per cent of schools and nursery settings in Wales. The new curriculum represents a radical shift in delivering that first-class education that enables our learners to become informed citizens of Wales and the world.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, First Minister. First Minister, the pandemic has shone a harsh light on inequalities in Wales, and much of this was seen through the delivery of our education system while parents struggled to be both parent and teacher for their children, and also when the welfare of children became a concern during a prolonged absence from the classroom. The crisis now with the cost of living is forcing parents to meet another challenge, and one where we might see an increase in school absences as parents attempt to find cheaper holidays during school time. What discussions has he had with colleagues in Government and across our school system to assess the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on school attendance? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question. I commend to him the recent lecture given by the Minister for education to the Bevan Foundation, in which he grappled with exactly the sorts of issues that Dr Hussain has raised with us this afternoon. These are complex matters. I have no wish whatsoever, Llywydd, to penalise any families who are struggling with the impact of the cost-of-living crisis and face additional difficulties in making sure their children are present—as those children need to be, as children have a right to an education in Wales—in the classroom. I don't think that my tolerance would extend all the way to families who choose to take their children out of school in order to go on holiday. There is a different and a better solution to that, and that is to reform the school year. That is another measure that my colleague Jeremy Miles is working on at the moment, with our partners in the school and educational fields. By reforming the school year, we would be able to take away that perverse incentive, or impact on it, that exists for parents to do exactly as Altaf Hussain has suggested. That's not the answer to making sure that children get the education that they need and deserve in Wales.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

First Minister, Rhigos Primary School in my constituency is celebrating after recently being awarded the title of best breakfast club in Wales. We've been providing free breakfasts for children in Wales for just under 20 years now, improving not just their health but also their concentration levels. And of course, the benefits of that universal access to good nutrition is set to be significantly expanded with the roll-out of free school meals to all primary-aged children in Wales. First Minister, will you send a message of congratulations to Mrs Mundy and her team at Rhigos primary for receiving this impressive accolade? And what best practice do you think might be taken from Rhigos and shared so that all breakfast clubs can offer our pupils a first-class addition to their school education?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I do thank Vikki Howells for that, and absolutely want to congratulate Rhigos Primary School and the team of people who have achieved that very significant award. I'm afraid, Llywydd, I have been around long enough vividly to remember a visit to a school in Rhondda Cynon Taf, the local authority represented here, with others, by Vikki Howells. It was a visit carried out by the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, and he met a formidable headteacher, who said to him that if there was one thing that she would like to see the Welsh Government do, it would be to take action to prevent children in her school turning up every morning too hungry to learn. That was a very sobering moment, Llywydd. From that one visit, the whole programme that we've had now right across Wales for, as Vikki Howells said, almost the whole of devolution to provide a free breakfast in primary schools, that's where that idea came from. And it does, as Vikki Howells has said, make sure that children who come to the classroom in Wales are ready to learn and not constantly preoccupied by the fact that they haven't eaten since they were last in school.

That will be enhanced even further by our programme of free dinners, free school meals—universal free school meals—a commitment embedded in our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and where a major step forward was taken yesterday with the announcement of the move forward in September of this year. I am hugely encouraged by the fact that so many schools and so many local authorities in Wales are able to join the roll-out of universal free school meals so early in the programme, and others with very active plans to extend that offer, not just to reception-age pupils, but to year 1 and year 2 students as well. It's an idea that's been widely welcomed, for all the reasons that Vikki Howells said, and we're off to a very good start with our programme here in Wales.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to upgrade the sewer system in the Wye and Usk river catchment areas? OQ58216

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Laura Anne Jones for that question, Llywydd. The privatisation of the water industry by previous Conservative Governments transferred responsibility for the sewer system to water companies. Some sewer systems, such as septic tanks, remain the responsibility of private individuals.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, First Minister. It's good to see that a local MS, Peter Fox, also put a question in regarding rivers today, just reinforcing how important this issue is to our local community. First Minister, last weekend, I attended the march outlined by Peter Fox to save our river, alongside local campaigner Angela, local councillors, residents, anglers, dogs, my own family and many local children, all of whom enjoy our river, just showing the strength of feeling that there is on this issue. First Minister, I've grown up next to—playing in and fishing in—the River Usk, and now I take my children down to the river and we see more pollution, fewer fish and large amounts of green algae growing. It's desperately sad to see its rapid decline.

It was a very welcome announcement by Welsh Water, as you've outlined already, of £10 million funding that will be invested in the Usk to improve the water treatment works, and in the combined storm overflow—an investment that desperately was needed for a variety of reasons: to save biodiversity, wildlife and decreasing fish numbers. But, First Minister, you've, in part, answered my question already earlier on the river management and our regulatory framework that's in place, and, of course, I welcome, very much so, as the river management is in your jurisdiction, that you've taken this on board and listened to the UK Government and what they're doing under the new environment Bill, and replicating some of these things, and you'll now be piloting on a non-statutory basis, as you've outlined, hoping that that becomes statutory in 2024. We would welcome that. We need to get a grip on this issue before our rivers die.

First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that we need to get a grip also on the sewage system. We've seen significant investment—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You do need to come to your question now. You've outlined what was previously asked and answered; if you can ask your question, please.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Presiding Officer. Do you agree with me that we need to see significant investment from this Welsh Government at some point to replace or renew the antiquated sewage system in Wales, working with those that you outlined in your previous answer, so that it's fit for purpose for future generations?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I agree with the Member about the need for very significant investment, but the investment comes from water companies. They are responsible, not the Welsh Government. There is money that the Welsh Government invests, and we have £40 million already being spent in this field over the next three years, but the responsibility does not lie with the Welsh Government. The responsibility lies with the water companies, and we are very lucky in Wales to have a not-for-profit water company so that millions and millions of pounds are not siphoned off from bill payers into the profits. This is the irony, Llywydd, isn't it? We have a publicly owned water industry in the United Kingdom; it's just that it's owned by the French Government and the German Government, not by our own Government, where those profits would be reinvested, as they are in Wales, and we're fortunate to be in that position.

I hope that the next quinquennial review will see the sort of step change in investment in dealing with the issues. I do agree with the Member, and I agree with Peter Fox, that these are serious matters and we deserve to have a serious debate about it in Wales. And that does mean that we have to be prepared to face some challenging conversations. I will chair a summit at the Royal Welsh Show on phosphate pollution in our rivers. Yesterday, the Minister published research findings that have been carried out by independent researchers funded by Dŵr Cymru into the River Usk. It looked at daily levels of phosphorus in the river. Twenty-one per cent of those daily loads are the result of sewage treatment works. Those are elderly works without the modern levels of sophistication, and they need to be upgraded so that that can be reduced. Twelve per cent comes from what the researchers describe as other categories: septic tanks, urban run-off. One per cent comes from combined sewage outflow areas, and 67 per cent comes as a result of agricultural use of the land along the riverbanks.

That's why it is necessary to have a mature, non-blaming conversation with our farmer colleagues. I'm going to be absolutely clear about that. I'm not giving you these figures in any sense of wanting to point the finger at anybody, but it is just to illustrate the fact that if we are to have the impact on our rivers that I know the Member will want to see, and that's shared around the Chamber, you have to have a mature conversation in which all the interests that have a part to play are prepared to be part of that conversation, to recognise the actions that they can take. Cumulatively, that will lead to making the difference.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

6. Will the First Minister provide an update on services to support women in Arfon who are affected by perinatal mental health problems? OQ58234

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you. Llywydd, recurrent investment of £3 million has allowed health boards across Wales to develop community perinatal mental health teams. Prevention and early intervention ensures that more women receive effective support as close to home as possible. In Arfon, this includes a specialist nurse, working as part of the wider perinatal mental health team.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. Next week, I will be co-sponsoring an event to mark the first anniversary of the unit for mothers and babies in the south, Uned Gobaith. As you know, this unit was opened in the middle of the pandemic, and it's faced challenges as a result of that, but, of course, it is developing to be a very valuable resource for women who experience mental health issues around the perinatal period.

One in four women can develop problems of this kind. I am therefore concerned about mothers in my constituency and across the north of Wales that there is no access to a specialist unit close to home for these mothers. Will you commit to develop specialist support in an appropriate location? You talk about a nurse, but we need an appropriate location for women in north Wales. Will you prioritise moving forward with the creation of this provision? It has been in the pipeline for some time. We need to see action.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, thank you very much to Siân Gwenllian, and thank you to her for co-sponsoring the event next week. From everything that I've heard, the first year of the unit in Tonna Hospital has been very successful, and we're trying to draw lessons out of those experiences. Also, Llywydd, I understand the points that the Member makes about in-patient provision in north Wales, and much work has been done already by the specialist services committee on this issue.

Now, in order for an independent unit to operate, it would need to meet the standards required by the relevant royal colleges, and that includes the number of patients that would be required to sustain a specialist unit of this kind. That's what people in north Wales are currently discussing: can we establish a unit in north Wales where the royal colleges will be content to give their seal of approval for that to move forward? Those discussions are ongoing, and I know that all opportunities are being taken to accelerate the process of agreeing a range of practical proposals.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote access to education in rural Conwy and Denbighshire? OQ58201

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member, Llywydd, for the question. All children in Wales have a right to access education within their own areas. Local authorities are responsible for planning school places and must ensure that there are sufficient schools providing primary and secondary education in their areas.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that response, First Minister. I was actually raising the question because of concerns about access to further education for some of my constituents. You'll be aware of the excellent provision that there has been over many years at Coleg Llysfasi, which is just outside Ruthin, which provides agricultural courses and animal-related courses as well, in terms of their small animal course provision.

It is a matter of great regret to me that Coleg Cambria has recently announced that it intends to change the location of those small animal courses that are available at Coleg Llysfasi. It has made that decision with no consultation with students, no consultation with staff, and no consultation with the parents of students either.

The result of the withdrawal of the animal care courses at Coleg Llysfasi means that the Welsh language provision of courses will be hampered as a result of the relocation of these courses to Northop. In addition to that, it will make access to those courses very difficult, particularly for those students who've already started some of their courses and hope to progress on to other years as well, because many will have, now, trips of up to an hour in each direction in order to access their courses. That's clearly unacceptable.

Given that FE colleges are in receipt of significant income from the Welsh Government, I would like to ask you if the Welsh Government will consider putting obligations on FE colleges to make sure that they are required to consult when they are proposing significant changes in the future to the location of courses, given the significant impact on students and staff.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, can I thank Darren Millar for raising that issue this afternoon? While I'm very familiar with Llysfasi and the work it does, and indeed the excellent work carried out by Coleg Cambria, that's the first I've heard of the specific issue that he's set out comprehensively this afternoon. The Minister will have heard what he has to say. I'm sure he'll be happy to look at whether there are changes to arrangements that need to be put in place, or whether it's more a matter of pursuing the individual concern that Darren Millar has raised this afternoon.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the increased risk to animal welfare as a result of the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58242

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the cost-of-living crisis has had an impact on all aspects of life in Wales, including increased risk to animal welfare. We assess that risk together with our partners in the farming unions, third sector organisations, and through the Welsh Government's established animal health and welfare group.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that. I had the privilege, last week, of visiting the Almost Home Dog Rescue charity near Mold, and I know that other Members have been and others will do so soon. Of course, there was an increase in the number of people who took pets into their homes during the pandemic, and now, as we're returning to some kind of normality, people realise that they perhaps have to let those animals go, but also, in the wake of the cost-of-living crisis, people can't afford to keep dogs and other pets. Simultaneously, charities such as these are having more difficulty in raising funds, because of the cost-of-living crisis. So, can I ask whether the Government has given any consideration in terms of providing practical financial support for any of these charities, because, at the end of the day, we are going to see animal welfare suffering appallingly if a number of these animals have to be put down?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, thank you to Llyr Gruffydd for that supplementary question. It's true what he said. Some figures show that over 3 million households additionally have bought pets during the pandemic than was previously the case. So, something major has happened in this area, and, with regard to the cost-of-living crisis and costs, a lot of families are facing pressures in that regard.

I know that the Minister and the chief veterinary officer are working very closely with the third sector. They do excellent work; of course, the Government's stance is to support people in that sector and to assist them. I don't know if we can do that financially, but we do do it in other ways, to support them in the important work that they do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, could I please request two statements? The first is from the Minister for health on increasing the availability of GP appointments in Wales. I know my colleague Sam Kurtz touched upon this earlier, but one of the biggest concerns of people in my region is the difficulty and frustration they face in making appointments to see their GP. In a move designed to ease pressure on GPs and to leave them with more time to see the most sick patients and those with complex issues, the health Secretary, Sajid Javid, has announced that the law will be changed so that patients will no longer need to see their family doctor to be signed off work. Pharmacists, nurses, occupational therapists and physiotherapists will be given powers to issue fit notes under reforms that will free up many more GP appointments and help alleviate the pressure that GPs currently face. The move has been welcomed by patient groups and the Royal College of General Practitioners, as it will allow more patients in south-east Wales to access more GP appointments. So, may I ask for a statement from the Minister for health on how this will change how we work here in Wales, for the benefit of GPs and patients alike?

The second part, Minister, is that I'd like to request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change about the proposed deposit-return scheme. Several businesses from across my region of south-east Wales and further afield have been in touch raising their concerns about the scheme. All of the businesses that I have spoken to are conscious of their environmental responsibilities; however, they fear that they will be hit with significant trading barriers because the Welsh Government intends to include glass in the scheme and pursue a digital DRS. One brewery told me that the scheme will impose significant costs on businesses, because including glass will require multiple labels and, consequently, businesses will struggle to cover the annual registration costs, producer fees, as well as labelling requirements. They also fear only big global brands will be able to adapt to the new rules more easily than smaller independent businesses, and that many companies will simply choose not to sell their products here in Wales. So, I'd be grateful, Minister, if you could please make a statement about what the Welsh Government is doing to address the legitimate concerns of businesses across Wales. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. With regard to your first question around increasing GP appointments through the way that you suggested—it's not just a general practitioner that does certain things—you'll be aware that the Minister has been working very closely with all primary care professionals—so, pharmacists, for instance, where we have increased the number of provisions that they do. I'm not aware that this is something the Minister for Health and Social Services is looking at. She's obviously in the Chamber and will have heard your question, but, if she has anything further to add, I will ask her to write to you.

In response to your ask for a statement around a deposit-return scheme from the Minister for Climate Change, this is a piece of work that has now been going extensively. When I was back in the portfolio a couple of years ago, the deposit-return scheme, we were working on it across the UK, along with the UK Government and the Scottish Government as well. I appreciate what some companies will have said to you. Those are certainly responses that I recognise, and legitimate concerns. However, the scheme is being worked through. We're also doing a significant amount around extended producer responsibility, and I'm sure, when the scheme has been worked through, the Minister will be happy to do a written statement.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you. Trefnydd, yesterday I visited Rhondda food bank and I have had many headteachers contacting me, gravely concerned about families in the region that I represent, and specifically concerned about what the situation will be over the summer. Clearly, the Minister and the First Minister have announced that there will be support available in terms of free school meals for families that are already in receipt of free school meals, but one of the concerns that has been expressed to me is those who fall between the cracks and those who perhaps aren't going to be able to benefit from the programmes that are run in the schools over the summer because of transport costs. We heard evidence last week as a children's committee that transport is a barrier for people to attend school, and it has an impact on attendance, so that will only deteriorate further over the summer without transport to schools available too. So, I'd like to ask for a statement from the education Minister before the summer for us to understand what the situation is and what provision there will be for families, for clarity.

Can I also draw your attention, please—? You'll also be aware that we, as Members of the Senedd, receive a note letting us know if the Minister is in our constituency or region. These are very useful so that we can prepare for those visits, or let a Minister know if we will be in attendance too, but the details aren't always in these statements. We only find out from some Ministers that they are in a region on a specific date, but we don't have any idea where they'll be in the region. So, can I ask for consistency in this information, please?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Both the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and the Minister for Social Justice, I know, are doing a great deal of work to support not just schools in relation to food being provided in school holidays in place of free school meals, but also to charity schemes as well. So, I'm not sure if there's any further work to update you upon ahead of the school holidays, but I will certainly—. Both the Ministers are in the Chamber and will have heard your request.

You should certainly always receive notification—every Member should—when a Minister is in your constituency or region, and I will certainly ask for private offices to be reminded that it is really important that this information goes out, and to ensure officials are aware as well, because consistency is really important. And I think it's also nice for Members to let other Members know when they're in their constituencies also.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

The Minister will be well aware of some of the issues pertaining to Bryn Group in Gelligaer in my constituency, which affects the communities of Gelligaer, Pen-y-bryn and Nelson. We had a very effective liaison committee that was established by Caerphilly County Borough Council that ended just before the pandemic began. I'm trying to get the liaison committee re-established, with the cross-party support of local councillors, and I'm finding a lot of resistance from officers of the council, for reasons I can't understand. One of the things they're saying is that a liaison committee would somehow be unlawful. I'd like a statement from the Counsel General on that, because I don't think that's the case.

Would the Trefnydd support the principle of liaison committees in these circumstances? She knows in her other brief how useful they've been, and would she make it clear that, actually, this is a very helpful way of resolving some of those issues that are affecting those communities?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Yes, certainly, from a planning point of view, I absolutely agree such liaison committees are very useful in practice. They help de-escalate community tensions where businesses are operating very close to communities. And I certainly think, where they work well—and they do work well in many places—they certainly help with that. They're certainly not unlawful. I think it's a shame that you haven't been able to get that cross-party support, and I would urge you to continue to do so, but I'm sure there is guidance available to assist you.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, I would like to ask the Government to schedule a debate on bus services and the important role they play in supporting active travel, with positive impacts on the environment and connecting communities. Recently, the bus operator, Easyway, announced they will cease trading on 31 July, which comes as a huge blow to the communities in Bridgend that have relied on their bus services. We will lose three routes and, according to the council, no other company has come forward to fill the gap. We need a debate about how it is possible to reach our targets for active travel and climate change action when our bus services are so fractured. Thank you, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you, and the Member raises a very important point. I'm sure all of us, as Members of this Senedd, receive a huge amount of correspondence regarding bus services from our constituents. As you're aware, the Welsh Government will be bringing forward some legislation around bus travel in this term of Government.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd like to ask for a debate in Government time, please, on the strategic priorities and objectives statement to Ofwat. I understand it will be laid in front of the Senedd next week, but, in the past, there hasn't been a debate on the process, but recently, in Westminster, there was a debate. I'd like to make sure that MSs have the same opportunity to discuss and challenge the process, because it helps to determine how our water systems are regulated, how the environment will be protected, how vulnerable customers will be protected or otherwise in their water bills, if they need it. It's really serious stuff, I'm sure you'll agree, and it shouldn't just be nodded through. We've had debates recently on flooding, on storm overflow systems, and the impact of sewage in our rivers. We know that major investment work is needed to protect that and to protect against climate change, and this is really a matter of public safety and there needs to be investment now.

So, could we have a debate on this, please, because I fear that making a decision on an England-and-Wales basis won't work and it won't make sense, because Dŵr Cymru isn't a company that just sends profits to shareholders; they reinvest, they support vulnerable customers? The SPS is the only opportunity we have to make sure that the process and the final decision make sense for Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Member raises a really important point, particularly around Dŵr Cymru. There won't be time to undertake such a statement in Government business time ahead of the summer recess, but I will certainly ask the Minister for Climate Change to consider a request for a written statement.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Trefnydd, I've had an e-mail recently from a volunteer in the Cardiff office of the legal charity Support Through Court, which, for the last eight years, has been funded by the Ministry of Justice. This isn't just a Cardiff problem; these are volunteers who support people throughout Wales who are having to grapple with the civil justice system. And it would appear that the Ministry of Justice is planning on changing the way they fund the civil justice system, and they're now going to have a system of competition, which means that the small number of volunteers, supported by a very small sum of money, could simply be forced to cease their activities and close, which means that the 5,000 clients they supported last year, and the 700 face-to-face contacts they've had with individuals so far this year—that service could simply disappear. So, I wonder if we could have a statement from the Counsel General on what the implications would be of the loss of funding for Support Through Court, because this is an incredibly stressful thing for anybody to have to do, and legal aid simply doesn't cover most people. So, I think this is a really serious matter, and I wondered if we could have a statement as soon as possible.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. You've certainly raised a very important issue, and I know it's a real matter of concern to the Welsh Government that the service provided by Support Through Court in Cardiff civil justice centre does really appear to be at real risk of being withdrawn. There's no guarantee it would be replaced. I am aware that the Counsel General did raise this issue directly with the new justice Minister, Lord Bellamy, about the uncertainty of future funding, to press home how important this was. The Ministry of Justice advise that voluntary sector future grant funds for helping litigants in person understand court processes when attending court will be the subject of open competition, as you said. So, what is not clear at this stage is what it will mean for the provision of services in Wales. The Counsel General has committed to continuing to engage with the Ministry of Justice and will consider the request for a statement.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

In mid May, James Evans asked a topical question about the Government's purchase of Gilestone Farm in his constituency. In response, the economy Minister stressed the importance of protecting the Green Man brand, and emphasised that the purchase was to do with keeping the Green Man festival in Wales. The Minister underscored the importance of the brand and the festival. However, in his response a week later, the First Minister said that it was about developing other elements within the Green Man business, and not the festival. So, I and many others have been wondering which is it: is the proposal to lease it to the company for festival purposes, or is it to lease it to the company for other purposes, and what are those other purposes? Finally, I note that the Minister said at the time that the Government didn't pay above market value for Gilestone, and the amount paid was £4.25 million. However, this sales brochure here shows it for sale for £3.25 million—£1 million less than what the Government paid for it. So, can I ask that the economy Minister brings an update to the Senedd regarding the business plan for Gilestone, and also clarifies what the Government did to verify that the property value was correct?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. So, the Welsh Government is still awaiting the business plan, and what the Welsh Government will require and expects from that business plan is for Green Man to set out the activities to be undertaken throughout the year on the site. And that will include also how the land will continue to be farmed. So, as I say, we are still waiting for that business plan.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

As everybody heads out for the summer to make the best of the great outdoors that we have here in Wales, could we have a statement on Welsh Government support, past and going forward, for Adventure Smart Cymru? It's a brilliant website, platform, social media presence that seeks to promote safe, healthy outdoor activities—hill walking, mountain biking, paddle boarding, canoeing, boating, open-water swimming, and more—by providing people with safe, up-to-date, reliable information about how to make the most of the outdoors, but to do it safely and to minimise, I have to say, the impact on mountain rescue or the coastguard service, or anybody else, not getting themselves into trouble as well.

Could we also have a statement on the extended review of the learner travel policy in Wales? It's been extended, for good reasons, to take in more thoughts on a slightly extended remit as well. I met with parents last night in my own constituency, keen to feed in their views around the 3-mile criteria for secondary schools and how this has to relate to safe routes to schools as well. I'm keen to say that, in their thoughts, 2 miles would be more appropriate, particularly for some of the younger children. So, an update on that and when we'll hear back from that review would be very, very helpful.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I think you've just reminded us that, despite many benefits to individuals, and of course to Wales, we should be very keenly aware of the potential risks associated with outdoor recreation, and informing and educating visitors on enjoying the outdoors safely is a really important aspect of what we do to promote the great outdoors here in Wales. Welsh Government have supported NRW in the development and promotion of the countryside code and a series of activity-specific codes, as well as funding campaigns promoting responsible recreation, such as Visit Wales's Addo campaign.

In relation to learner travel policy, as you mentioned, an initial review of the Measure took place back in 2020-21, and that concluded at the end of the previous Government term, a year ago. So, from the initial review it was very clear, I think, that a more detailed and more thorough review of the Measure was required. So, I know officials are presently putting in place a comprehensive engagement programme that will ensure all relevant stakeholders to the wider learner travel Wales review do have that opportunity to fully input and be engaged. So, stakeholders will shortly be invited to a range of engagement events that will look in greater detail at the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 in its form currently, and I think it's really important that we have constituents—if they too want to put into that review, it would be very welcome.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Refugee Week 2022: Healing

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We now move on to item 3, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Refugee Week 2022: Healing. I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you. This week we mark Refugee Week. This is an opportunity to celebrate the wonderful contributions sanctuary seekers bring to Wales. The celebrations will bring together people from all backgrounds to help create better understanding between communities and promote integration.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Since we celebrated Refugee Week last year, the plight of those who are forced to leave their country to flee war or persecution has been highlighted more than ever, with the evacuation of Afghanistan and war in Ukraine to name just two of many world events affecting so many people. I've delivered several statements in relation to our support for people from Ukraine recently, and will continue to do so. However, I want to focus on our broader support for our sanctuary seekers today.

We are privileged to offer sanctuary to those who arrive in Wales, to take a compassionate approach to integration, understanding the trauma they have faced. Wales has enjoyed a long history of welcoming refugees, and we continue to value and benefit from their skills, entrepreneurial spirit and the sharing of their cultures. In this Refugee Week we reiterate our ambition to make Wales a nation of sanctuary. I've been truly heartened to see how this has come to life over the past three years, since I launched our nation of sanctuary plan in January 2019—a plan that does not belong solely to the Welsh Government, but to all the people and institutions who make up our country and want to give what they can for a humanitarian purpose. We have seen this through an inspiring response to the COVID pandemic, the evacuation of Afghanistan and recently the Ukraine war: members of the public, local authorities, charities, faith leaders and organisations across Wales coming forward to support those who need help. This kindness embodies what we mean by being a nation of sanctuary.

Our unique approach in Wales, often referred to as 'team Wales' has led to many innovative ways of working. I am particularly grateful to Urdd Gobaith Cymru for genuinely embodying their long humanitarian response and purpose by stepping up and offering temporary accommodation to those desperately in need, first from Afghanistan and now from Ukraine. I have visited two of our welcome centres for Ukrainian refugees, including the Urdd yesterday, with the First Minister, witnessing the warm welcome they provide for Ukrainian refugees and the wraparound support with the local authority, health board staff and volunteers. Many families will remember their stay with the Urdd, and many have gone on to learn Welsh as part of their resettlement journey. The Urdd are, therefore, deserved winners of the First Minister’s special award at this year’s St David’s awards.

Once again, a fitting theme has been chosen for this year’s Refugee Week: healing. Whilst every sanctuary seeker will have their own personal story, all would share a common goal of surviving and the courage to rebuild their lives. And we know that part of the healing process for many is about restarting their lives and integrating with their community. We want this to start from day one of their arrival. The nation of sanctuary plan sets out the actions we are undertaking to ensure inequalities experienced by these communities are reduced, access to opportunities increased, and relations between these communities and wider society improved.

Our successful ReStart project, which ended on 31 March 2022, delivered support to 853 refugees over the three years. We have continued to fund ESOL hubs in Wales to ensure sanctuary seekers and refugees can access classes in Wales to improve and enhance their language skills. We are working to encourage businesses to consider recruiting refugees to make their workplaces inclusive of their needs.

Schools are starting to achieve schools of sanctuary status, providing a welcoming place of safety for all, making children feel part of the school's community, helping with the healing process. In March, I was delighted to join St Cyres School in Penarth, to present their award in becoming a school of sanctuary.

We have continued to provide funding to the Welsh Refugee Council and its partners to deliver our Wales sanctuary service and move-on services. We've also funded Asylum Justice to continue to provide legal advice and Housing Justice Cymru to expand hosting capacity across Wales. We've provided free access to internet at all asylum accommodation across Wales throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, and continue to do so, which has meant people have been able to connect with their family members, keep studying, and continue to access vital health information and updates. We provided free transport to refugees to allow them to integrate with Welsh communities, and we are currently reviewing the next stage of those schemes.

Every individual action—some of which I have outlined in this statement—brings us closer to becoming a nation of sanctuary and reaffirms the welcoming and caring reputation of our country. We stand with refugees from across the world, regardless of how they arrived. The UK Government policy to send people to Rwanda and the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 will be detrimental to the healing process and divisive. It is our moral duty to enable people to seek safety and find an inclusive welcome here in Wales.

Focus should be on improving the asylum system, not finding new ways to make the system more challenging and prolonged for people seeking safety. The decision by the Home Office to use electronic tagging is abhorrent and completely against our position as a nation of sanctuary. Those vulnerable people who come to our country seeking safety and sanctuary should be treated with dignity and respect, not tagged and criminalised. Safe and legal routes must be developed for asylum seekers to claim asylum from outside the UK, negating the need for perilous journeys and disrupting the business model of people smugglers.

Men, women and children arrive in the UK because of existing family or kinship ties, their ability to speak English, or as a consequence of cultural connections often linked to former British colonialism. We stand with refugees from across the world, regardless of how they have arrived. We celebrate how they enrich our communities in Wales, how their own healing journey turns to success, and how we benefit from this as a nation of sanctuary.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for your statement today and I believe that everyone here is going to agree wholeheartedly with most of your sentiments. I would like to start by saying that recognising the plight of refugees is a fundamental part of our humanity and it is right for us to take action to help those fleeing conflict and persecution, and Refugee Week is a time for us to reflect on our own actions as to how we have helped those who have come in need and have asked for our help.

It is overwhelming to think that the number of forcibly displaced people around the world now stands at more than 100 million, and I would like to pay tribute to all those who work tirelessly to help refugees across the world. There are still so many who will be unknown to us who have given so much to help others. Refugee Week is a fantastic opportunity to bring communities together and encourage better understanding, and there is no better way than through art, culture and educational events to celebrate the contribution of refugees to the United Kingdom.

With this in mind, this year's theme of 'healing' is rather poignant. When we look at the Ukraine conflict, as with so many other conflicts, although the immediate concern is to get people to safety, we have to be aware of the long-term questions of how we deal with repairing and rebuilding the lives of refugees, and how we heal the impact of conflict without masking the suffering or forgetting the trauma. The process, ultimately, comes down to forgiveness, but this is much easier to say than to do, especially when so much pain, suffering and hurt has been caused.

We must be well aware that the healing process should not only extend to the psychological trauma of fleeing your country or being separated from family or losing loved ones, but also to the loss of community, to the potential loss of identity, and to the loss of home, and that all these issues affect people in different ways. We must also be mindful that the manifestation of many of these issues will be hidden. Depression, suicide, family breakdown, PTSD and health problems may well eclipse people's lives as they try to heal from their experiences.

Every nation in the world that deals with refugees faces similar problems, in that refugees rarely look for asylum in small numbers. Refugees are often fleeing for their lives in thousands and, as we have seen from the Ukraine and Russian conflict, in the millions. This creates problems with how responding countries deal with the overwhelming numbers. Whilst we are all horror struck at the plight of refugees, we need to be aware that Governments have the unenviable task to try and deal with refugees as best as they can, in light of the situation they're in, which is often extremely complex. And they have to do so objectively, which, unfortunately, often sees them accused of lacking empathy and emotion, but we have to be mindful that when the correct processes are in place, they achieve much more, and even though the systems may not always work at first, there is always an opportunity to evaluate, reflect and improve. And this, Minister, brings me to my first question.

In 2017, you wrote a letter to Kevin Foster, the Minister for Future Borders and Immigration, urging the UK Government to amend its legislation to provide a right for asylum seekers to work in any occupation in the UK if their application had taken more than six months after the full evidence had been submitted, and I would very much like to know if there is any update on asylum right to work. Secondly, I would like to know what intentions does the Welsh Government have to extend the free transport scheme, and do you have any plans to expand the scope of the scheme for asylum seekers? Thirdly, I wonder, Minister, given that voluntary jobs are one of the best ways to learn, understand and integrate into a new country, whether more voluntary opportunities for asylum seekers and refugees can be made available. And finally, Minister, would you be able to update us on the progress of the nation of sanctuary commitment to essential skills development and digital literacy? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Joel James. And thank you for your support, in principle, for the statement, and for us being a nation of sanctuary. Thank you for acknowledging Refugee Week, and also, I'm sure, implicit in many of your comments, about the fact that for Refugee Week the theme is healing, and that is particularly important in terms of the trauma that so many refugees and asylum seekers are facing when they come and we welcome them to this country.

I think, in the past year, we were not anticipating, but we fully responded, as a country, in terms of the Afghan refugees and their arrival here, working on a Team Wales basis, which actually included some of the armed forces who had been involved in the ARAP scheme, where there were interpreters who they'd worked with, with those who are based in Wales, to ensure that we could provide the best possible support to Afghan refugees. We've welcomed approximately 700 people from Afghanistan and many of them, the majority of them, are now resettled across Wales. And also, now, of course, we are supporting our Ukrainian refugees as well.

What is important, and it goes to answer some of your questions, is that our vision is about making Wales not just welcoming to migrants, but harnessing the opportunities that migration brings to help our economy and communities to thrive. Actually, it's about a nation of sanctuary and being able to help those who are dispersed or resettled in Wales to make sure that they access those services and that they can integrate with communities from day one. And that means, of course, access to information on their rights and entitlements, including sections on health, education and employment, and much of that has been made available on our website.

You ask about the asylum rights programme. The Welsh Refugee Council has recently been awarded funding for the Wales sanctuary service, which replaces the asylum rights programme, which is in place from 1 April 2022 for at least three years. I think that's important to demonstrate that we're moving forward, learning from the lessons of how we've funded the services up until that point, but ensuring that it is the Wales sanctuary service that is embedded in the work that they're doing.

In my statement, I did comment on the fact that we've taken forward our free transport scheme, and it is important to recognise that that's something that was a pilot, which is now being evaluated, which we're taking forward in terms of recognising that this has been very important for our refugees, particularly those coming from Ukraine, alongside all our refugees in Wales. I think that it is important, just in terms of evaluating the transport scheme, that we look at the pilot. The Welsh Refugee Council ran a pilot of free transport for asylum seekers from January to March. Surveys were undertaken with those who were using the pilot to understand the benefits and the impact of having free transport for asylum seekers, funding was identified and taken forward for further access to free transport, but also it was about making sure that we could look to our transport colleagues as well, because this is something that they have got to embed into their policies and their schemes. Initial feedback has concluded that access to free transport has helped asylum seekers to access opportunities that are not achievable in their weekly budget. And it's about access to visiting places of interest, healthcare appointments, ESOL classes, visiting friends—all of which are important in terms of integration and well-being.

I think that that also responds to your question about voluntary opportunities, because certainly, this is something, as the Wales sanctuary service and many of the organisations that are working across Wales, including local authorities and the third sector, are encouraging refugees and asylum seekers to volunteer. Going back to the very successful resettlement of Syrian families and refugees who came to Wales, and I recall even in my own constituency, the importance of the local authority offering voluntary opportunities to Syrian refugees who were there themselves, wanting to engage and offer that kind of support. And also, we've seen that very recently with many of the Ukrainian refugees who've come to Wales who, themselves, are wanting to contribute, obviously, and seeking to work and be independent, but also to volunteer as well. And we certainly found many who were offering to be volunteers, particularly with things like interpretation and translation, but also supporting each other, the children and families, in our welcome centres.

So, we're moving forward on all of the points that you've made, but recognising, which I hope you do, that this is against the context of a very challenging time when we need to ensure that our values as a nation of sanctuary, which I certainly share whenever I can with UK Government Ministers—that they're actually taken seriously and that the hostile environment is totally against, and those policies from the UK Government, I've mentioned, are totally against our nation of sanctuary spirit and delivery.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for the statement, Minister, to mark Refugee Week.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm looking forward to attending the Home Away From Home exhibition in the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea later this week, which is a celebration of the people and organisations who've been involved in making Swansea a city of sanctuary for over 10 years.

Getting to a safe place, of course, is only the first step—an often perilous and exhausting step—on a long journey for refugees, both literally and figuratively, which, as we've seen in recent weeks, is made even harder by Governments like those in power in Westminster, which dehumanise refugees, which devalue and deny human rights to those who've often experienced violence and persecution while on that journey towards sanctuary and normality, a journey that most of us can't even begin to imagine. After surviving that, after coping with that, then there is the incredibly difficult but key task of making a new life in a new country, the first step to healing, and being unable to do so is what too many refugees find frustratingly and impossibly challenging.

We have now seen how Wales has welcomed the chance to provide aid and sanctuary to those fleeing Ukraine and other nations, such as Afghanistan and Syria in the past. The response from ordinary people in Wales has been so heartening, but we heard from the Minister last week about some of the difficulties around other parts of the journey towards a new life. A few weeks ago, I asked you, Minister, about the provision of mental health support available to refugees arriving in Wales. Specifically, I wanted you to provide figures on waiting times and lists for those trying to access those support services, after it was revealed that, on a UK level, some refugees are waiting up to two years to access trauma support. I was therefore wondering if you could be able, today, to provide figures or estimates as to the situation on this in Wales. In your response also, you noted that the Welsh Government were exploring options to provide additional mental health and well-being support at the welcome centres, so I was wondering if any progress has been made with this and what the timescale will be on that.

I want to take this opportunity to put on record Plaid Cymru's thanks to the campaigners, organisations and human rights lawyers who succeeded in challenging and stopping the first flight due to take those seeking asylum from the UK to Rwanda under a despicable, immoral policy, which we know would've had devastating and dangerous consequences for those who are our brothers and sisters. Doctors Without Borders conducted mental health sessions with refugees and asylum seekers who'd been forcibly removed from Australia by way of a similar policy, to indefinite detention centres on Nauru island. Doctors Without Borders found some of the worst mental health suffering they had encountered in 50 years of experience of supporting refugees. Children as young as nine were having suicidal thoughts, committing acts of self-harm or even attempting suicide. If the Tory Westminster Government continues to play political games with the lives of those seeking our help and protection, we are putting these people at risk of a horrifying mental health collapse, like we saw in Australia.

The tagging pilot announced last week, which you've referenced, is equally shocking. The UN Refugee Agency has said that a clear majority of people arriving in the UK by small boat are refugees fleeing conflict or persecution and not, as the Westminster Government argues, in contrary to its own data, economic migrants. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that our aspiration to be a nation of sanctuary is achievable in the light of such barbarous policies? How is the Government going to ensure it's able to protect all people seeking safety equally in Wales?

Finally, I've been contacted by a constituent who is hosting a Ukrainian refugee. She has been trying for weeks to arrange an appointment at the nearest biometric residence permit centre in Cardiff, as is required to obtain leave to stay and access services beyond the first six months. She told me, 'As far as I'm aware, Cardiff is the only place in Wales where you can get a BRP, and, to date, it's impossible to get an appointment. The nearest centre offering appointments is Barnstable library, which, as the crow flies, and as the computer said, is approximately 50 miles away.' But, of course, in reality, it's closer to 150 miles and a six-hour round trip. My constituent also told me that there are no places available on an English for speakers of other languages course until September where she lives in Port Talbot for the Ukrainian woman she is hosting, which is also hampering her efforts to settle in her new home. So, what can the Welsh Government do to ensure people are able to access the visa appointments and support they need and that the stress of trying to make a new life for themselves is alleviated as much as possible? Diolch.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Swansea is a remarkable city of sanctuary. I remember visiting both universities and Gower College and the work that they've done. I think Julie James was involved as well, probably in her constituency capacity. It's absolutely thriving, and I'm sure that exhibition will be vivid and powerful. In fact, Joel James mentioned the ways in which during Refugee Week we often do celebrate the cultural and artistic contributions from our refugees, and we do that in recognition of their skill, talent and the cultural lessons and learning from that.

Your questions are key to how we can call ourselves a nation of sanctuary, aren't they? In terms of support, particularly for those, as you say, who've come here with perilous journeys and trauma—of course, yesterday, the First Minister and I met many at the Urdd welcome centre, and the Counsel General and I visited another welcome centre—and also leaving behind, for the Ukrainians, their husbands and partners who are fighting in the war, the journeys that they've taken, the new life in our country has to be powerful in terms of the support that we give. Actually, a strong word that was coming from many of the refugees yesterday was that they felt that the experience that they had at the Urdd was 'healing'. They didn't know that this was necessarily the word that has been the theme. They felt it was healing—the environment, the care and the compassion.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

There has to be access to mental health support. In the welcome centres, in both the ones I visited, I met with nurses from the community mental health teams, and also in terms of other needs—health checks for those who are attending the welcome centres. There's no waiting when you go to a welcome centre, you see the teams. And, of course, they're registering with GPs. But the nurses were saying how privileged they felt to be able to offer this kind of support at this time. That's the expression of a nation of sanctuary by the professionals.

For those who are staying with sponsor families, I will look into this further in terms of access to mental health services, because clearly, in terms of the welcome that we're seeking to give—the health board, the local authorities—it's crucial that we can be held to account as to what it is that's been provided, but also give you reassurance on that. I certainly have found in my feedback that that access has been able to be delivered.

I'll just go on to some of the other points that you made about services once people come to Wales. Clearly, on the biometric centre and the fact that there was no chance of an appointment and there's only one in Cardiff, that is a UK Government responsibility. I will raise that with the Minister for Refugees, Lord Harrington. I meet with him and my Scottish colleague weekly or fortnightly, and I will raise this with them. But also, it's unacceptable that there's that delay, because those who are coming and are refugees want to work, they want to get on with their lives.

As far as ESOL classes are concerned—the education Minister has joined us as well—I know that universities, local authorities and the third sector are offering support, so I'll get an update on what's happening over the summer holidays. I'll certainly be doing another statement before the end of this term, I hope—if not oral, then written, an update—because ESOL is crucial for integration.

I want to finally thank you for your comments about the cruel, cruel policies that this UK Government is enacting to try to send asylum seekers to Rwanda, a cruel and inhumane response to those who seek sanctuary in the UK, and diametrically opposite to our nation of sanctuary approach here in Wales. The UN Refugee Agency is clear that the measures in the Nationality and Borders Act, the offshoring, are at odds with the refugee convention. The UK is a signatory to that. But also, again, there's the tagging as well. Numbers crossing the channel via small boats may be high recently, but the overall number of asylum seekers arriving in the UK is down on previous years, despite the rhetoric—and it is rhetoric—suggesting otherwise. Those who arrive here to seek sanctuary are seeking it because they're vulnerable, and they should be treated with dignity and respect, not treated like a criminal. I do welcome those statement and comments widely condemning this, including from the church. I was very pleased to read the statement from the Bishop of Llandaff, the Right Rev June Osborne. She said:

'Refugee Week offers us all, as schools, churches and communities, the perfect opportunity to come together and celebrate the incredible contribution these refugees and migrants make to our society, whilst also reflecting on the resilience of those who have experienced untold suffering.... This year has been impaired by new legislation that has criminalised many seeking safety, and just this week we’ve witnessed the first shameful attempt to deport asylum seekers to Rwanda',

which, as the First Minister, of course, said, was a dark day. But we hope, as you say, those who have campaigned and enabled us to use their skills and legal support as well—. Of course, it's so important that this is part of our commitment to the European convention on human rights.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

John Griffiths. If I could have short questions and short answers, please, because we've got a long day ahead. Thank you.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Indeed. Thank you very much, Minister, for your statement and your work. I think Wales has made great strides in the way that we welcome asylum seekers and refugees here and look after them and provide the necessary services when they are in our country. It's very good to see, and I think the nation of sanctuary provides a very good framework and focus for that sort of work.

Minister, Newport East is diverse. I was very interested to bump into a young woman, a Ukrainian refugee, at a local parkrun in Newport. She was there with the woman that she is placed with, as it were, and they obviously got on very well and the household were enjoying Ukrainian potato pancakes, which apparently are very tasty. The young woman is a doctor and she's improving her English and very much looking forward to contributing within the Welsh national health service. It was a very positive picture indeed, and it was very good to see. I know we've seen similar positive stories around refugees from Afghanistan, for example. It's absolutely right that these people are having that level of service and welcome, but it's not the same for refugees and asylum seekers from all parts of the world and we have to make sure that it is consistently of that quality. In that respect, Minister, I'd very much echo the comments made about ESOL, because I think that is absolutely vital and we have to make sure that the provision is consistently good right across Wales.

I also think that around Refugee Week we can do more and perhaps we could have more of a campaign to get the right messages across in terms of asylum seekers and refugees, perhaps working with the local press and others, because there are lots of misconceptions, misinformation, and that undermines the sort of welcome that we want to see in our communities. Positive stories about the contributions that asylum seekers and refugees make can be very powerful and help shape perceptions in the right way, Minister, but I think it does need to be co-ordinated and led, and I think that is a role for Welsh Government.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much. I don't think I need to answer. They weren't questions; it was a very, very important statement. I think it just shows that the fact that I'm doing a statement here today on Welsh Refugee Week is important, and that, actually, we've had strong cross-party recognition of what it means to be a nation of sanctuary.

There's just one point that I would say. It's great that you had this refugee doctor from Ukraine in your constituency. I actually met a dentist who was also in a welcome centre in your area. They could work in our NHS, couldn't they, so they're already being put in touch with the organisation Displaced People in Action, who have supported refugee doctors over the last 22 years, because I helped set that up when I was health Minister all those years ago. So, many of those refugee doctors are now working in the NHS. But, for the contribution that refugees want to make, are desperate to make, often there are barriers. We've got to break down those barriers. We'll look at ESOL and the consistency of the offer across Wales. Sadly, in the funding that we're getting from the UK Government for the Ukrainian refugees, there is no funding for ESOL. There was for Afghan refugees; there's no funding for Ukrainian refugees. So, again, we're having to find that money.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: Pride, and Progress on the LGBTQ+ Action Plan

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I move on now to item 4, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on Pride and progress on the LGBTQ+ action plan. Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Diolch. Pride Month this year marks 50 years since the first UK Pride; 50 years since Saturday 1 July 1972 when people came together to take that first step and bring Pride to the streets of London. Five decades on, we can be proud of how far we've come on LGBTQ+ rights thanks to the activists and allies that came before us. But, we cannot be complacent, with LGBTQ+ communities under attack and our hard-fought-for rights at risk of being rolled back around the world, including, shamefully, here in the UK.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Pride was born out of the need and the will to protest, to fight for equal rights, to be seen, to be ourselves, to be respected, to stand together as a community and to demand an end to discrimination. There is still more to do, and so we have a responsibility to redouble our commitment to continue to change history for the better, here and abroad, and to create a future where we recognise and realise Wales as the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe.

As a Government, we stand with our LGBTQ+ communities. That's why LGBTQ+ rights are embedded in our programme for government, are a key component of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and why we are developing our bold action plan. This plan strengthens protections for LGBTQ+ people, promotes equality for all, and helps co-ordinate actions across Government, communities and the country.

Our aim is to publish the action plan this autumn, and we are making progress not just on the plan itself but, importantly, putting commitments into practice. We are fulfilling our commitments to support Pride organisations in Wales. Our support for Pride Cymru continues and, for the first time, we have provided funding to grass-roots Pride events across Wales. We have already given support to Swansea Pride and North Wales Pride, and discussions are under way with Pride in the Port in Newport.

We are enabling more inclusive education, with Welsh Government providing national guidance for schools by the end of this year to help them fully support transgender pupils. This is being done as part of the whole-school approach to relationships and sexuality education, and we want to make it clear that Welsh Government has not endorsed any third party guidance in this area. Recently, our support has enabled Stonewall Cymru and Peniarth to translate into Welsh two books on LGBTQ+ families. The books, distributed to primary schools, will ensure classrooms have access to inclusive literature reflecting the diversity of Wales.

Progress has also been made in sexual health through the HIV action plan for Wales, published for consultation last week. The plan aims to reach the target of zero new HIV transmissions by 2030, to tackle stigma and improve the quality of life of people living with HIV.

Forty years ago, gay people were subject to hateful slurs and prejudiced attacks. Trans people today are being subjected to a similar barrage of hate-fuelled tirades. Extending rights for one group does not mean eroding rights from another. We do not believe improving rights for trans women will damage rights for cisgender women and girls. Our trans communities are hurting, they're afraid, and they're experiencing harm. As a society, we can and must do better than this.

So, we continue to develop our gender service in Wales, which reports shorter waiting times for first assessment than comparable NHS gender services in England and is committed to reducing waiting times further. We are also committed to improving the pathway for transgender young people in Wales. The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, responsible for the service, will look at available evidence to further define the clinical service model for the future, and community voices will be front and centre to this work.

In line with our co-operation agreement commitment, we will also seek to devolve additional powers to improve lives and protect transgender people. Our commitment to support LGBTQ+ people seeking sanctuary in Wales and meet our international duty to show leadership on equality has never been more important. We have written to UK Government expressing our horror at their plans to send asylum seekers to Rwanda. This would be devastating for LGBTQ+ people, placing them at risk of ill treatment, discrimination, arbitrary arrest, and detention.

So, LGBTQ+ issues beyond our borders remain crucial to us and, whilst Wales's qualification for the World Cup is to be celebrated, the host country's appalling stance on LGBTQ+ rights cannot be overlooked. Many will not feel safe to travel, or will choose not to in support of Qatar's own LGBTQ+ communities, who cannot live openly and freely as themselves. We will look to use our platform to engage and influence on these important matters.

We are committed to leaving no stone unturned when it comes to banning conversion practices for LGBTQ+ people. We will not abandon our trans communities, as UK Government has done, nor will we just talk the talk when it comes to action. Working with Plaid Cymru, we are undertaking complex work, including seeking legal advice to determine all the levers we have for a ban in Wales, developing our campaign to raise awareness of support services and the horrors of conversion practices, and our plans to establish a working group of experts are under way.

During my recent visit to meet with the Digon group from Ysgol Plasmawr in Cardiff, I asked the students what message they would want me to share in a statement here to mark Pride Month. The message was clear: 'I don't just want to be tolerated, I want to be celebrated.' This Pride Month, and every month, the greatest tribute we can pay to the pioneers that paved the way is to continue to speak up, stand up and play our own part in achieving a fairer future where we feel safe, are supported, with our rights secured, and celebrated.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement, and can I offer my sincere thanks to all those who have worked so hard in producing the action plan so far? I have a few brief questions, if I may, regarding some of the actions. Minister, you will know that suicide is the biggest killer of young people under the age of 35 in the UK, and it disproportionately affects members of the LGBTQ+ community. Moreover, we know that, on average, over five young people take their lives each day, over 200 schoolchildren are lost to suicide every year, and that research has shown that, with the appropriate early intervention and support, suicide by young people can be prevented. It is mentioned in the proposed action plan that there is to be an undertaking of targeted public health work to combat issues for LGBTQ+ people who are disproportionately at risk, including on substance misuse, sexual health and mental health. We're also aware that there are those who are part of the LGBTQ+ community who live in fear of being outed by engaging with any project or being seen to be involved with initiatives, and I'm wondering what specific actions this Government is looking to take to tackle the mental health issues of those who are hidden within the LGBTQ+ community in order to help combat this.

Secondly, I want to understand better what is meant by creating

'a more homogenised approach to private workplace training resources'

so that workplaces can become more LGBTQ+ inclusive. What do you actually mean by a 'homogenised approach'? Why have you decided this is the best course of action? I ask this because I've always taken the view that a one-size-fits-all approach does not allow for the flexibility that is needed, and a fixed model of training will not necessarily suit all the different industries and work cultures that we have. As you have said, discrimination in the workplace remains widespread, which, as we know, is driven by the fear of the unknown, and fear of something different. So, how will this training specifically aim to educate people and change discriminatory behaviour?

Finally, Minister, I wanted to add my words to your positive statement regarding Pride. Pride themes change not only year to year, but from place to place, to reflect and celebrate the community. However, the overreaching message is always the same—whilst we are different, we are also all the same. Although we like and are good at different things and we love different people, we are all human, and we should never be persecuted or judged or treated differently because of those differences. Instead, we should celebrate what makes us unique and what makes us individuals, because, if we do, we can achieve amazing things by including everyone and making the most of our diversity for humankind. Thank you, Minister.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Can I thank the Member for those warm words of support for Pride at the end of his contribution there, and also very much welcome the supportive comments around what we're trying to do in the LGBTQ+ action plan? I'd be more than happy, as we develop the plan, to discuss certain elements that the Member might have a specific interest in. As we do that over the coming weeks and months, I'm more than happy to do that, and I think it's really important that, in this place here, in this Chamber, we do take a very different tone and a very different approach than perhaps elsewhere in terms of standing together to do the right thing.

If I just touch on a couple of specific points you made, Altaf, in that contribution, you're right to highlight the very real challenges that the LGBTQ+ community face in terms of challenges with mental health, isolation. It can stem from a variety of things. We know that it has been exacerbated, perhaps, during the pandemic for people who may have had to remain living with people who they were maybe not out to, who they were not able to be themselves with, or perhaps in an environment that was less than friendly towards them. So, we have done—. As well as what's outlined in the action plan, there is a piece of work that we've been doing to look at the impact of COVID-19 on the LGBTQ+ community particularly. So, it's hoped that can feed into the broader work of the action plan. But I think you make a really valid point, which I'm sure our officials and our experts are already taking forward, in terms of actually making sure people know where the support and resources are and that, if they don't feel able to, they don't have to put their hand up and declare who they are if they don't feel comfortable at that point in life in doing it to be able to access certain services. So, I think there's a really, really important and valid point there.

On LGBTQ+ friendly and inclusive workplaces, I think, absolutely, we spend so much of our time and our life at work, in a workplace, and I know from my own personal experience that, at the point when I was able to be out and be myself at work, I suddenly was not just happier at work, but I was probably more productive; I wanted to be there. And I think when you're in that situation sometimes where you don't feel that you can be yourself, you expend so much energy on that, rather than energy on more positive things, things that you could focus on. So, that's a really important strand of what we're doing. You talk about a homogenous approach, and I recognise what you say, that one size doesn't fit all, but I think it's about having that parity and equality of support and resource for workplaces, whether they be in the public or private sector—and the voluntary sector, of course. And we know that there are really good examples of best practice. We see it in those major organisations, businesses, in Wales who are recognised for their networks and their inclusivity. And we also know that, within the trade union movement, there are a lot of good equality courses there and support for members, and that's another way to facilitate and to disseminate that information within the workplace.

So, I think what we mean is making sure that we get that better practice and make sure that it's shared and everybody has the opportunity to access that support and to have that support at work as well. And, of course, it's central—when we talk about being a nation of fair work, of course, equality in the workplace and being able to be yourself at work is a key part of that in terms of your well-being at work as well.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for the statement, Deputy Minister.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm proud that the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru commits the Welsh Government to making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe and to calling for the powers to legislate to improve the lives and protect the safety of trans people in Wales to be devolved. It's clear how crucial those commitments are, given how hate crimes against people based on sexual orientation have risen every year in England and Wales since 2016. And figures from Gwent Police, North Wales Police and South Wales Police retrieved by an FOI by BBC Wales have also shown this trend of increasing sexual orientation and transphobic hate crimes in the last year.

I'm glad the Deputy Minister made specific reference in her statement to the way trans people are being made subject to rising intolerance and hate. We must have powers to better protect trans people here in Wales, and I look forward to further progress on this. I also believe that trans women are women and that the way that trans women are being excluded by sporting bodies, whether you agree with it as a method of ensuring fairness or not, is emboldening those who are using sport as a cover for their transphobia and prejudice. When considered together with the mental health issues and suicide rates for trans people, and the tiny proportion of trans athletes who compete in elite sports, it seems that decisions to ban transgender athletes are, in the words of one of America's foremost sports journalists, Dan Wolken, a solution in search of a problem. Sport has such a key role in promoting an inclusive, diverse reflection of our world's citizens, including transgender athletes. So, how are we in Wales, as so rightly put by the students of Ysgol Gyfun Plasmawr's Digon group, going to celebrate our trans citizens who are athletes? I would like to know therefore, Deputy Minister, what conversations you have had with sports organisations and bodies in Wales about the ramifications of the decision taken by FINA and the statements made by Nadine Dorries, that she will encourage UK sporting bodies to follow FINA's lead.

And staying with sport, I was also glad to hear the Deputy Minister reference our responsibility as a nation to call out prejudice and persecution beyond Wales, and the need to ensure our concerns about Qatar's awful record on LGBTQ+ rights are clearly voiced when our national team, and their supporting staff, and Welsh fans, travel there for the World Cup.

So, could the Deputy Minister please outline exactly what conversations she's had with other Governments, the FAW, and other stakeholders regarding this issue? How will we engage with and try to influence a state that can prevent LGBT people from entering their country, or deport LGBT people from Qatar on the grounds of their sexual orientation and gender identity? How is the Government going to ensure that LGBTQ+ fans, those associated with the teams, members of Welsh companies and organisations, are able to play a full part in Wales's World Cup campaign without fear of persecution?

Lastly, I would like to turn to your comments on how Wales is a nation of sanctuary for all—it's so apt that we do that in Refugee Week, and following the debate we've just had—and how Welsh Government has expressed its horror at the Westminster Government's plans to send refugees and asylum seekers to Rwanda. And Plaid Cymru supports your strong words, and shares your concerns on the consequences for LGBTQ+ refugees and the potential risks they would face. The Nationalities and Borders Act 2022 makes it even harder for LGBTQ+ people who are seeking asylum to be recognised and protected. The shameful treatment of some of the world's most vulnerable refugees is one of the reasons the UK has plummeted down the rankings for LGBTQ+ rights across Europe for the third year running. What is the Welsh Government going to do specifically to support LGBTQ+ refugees, and does the Deputy Minister agree with me that if we are to fully protect LGBTQ+ people who wish to make Wales their home, then we need, desperately, a Welsh bill of rights to help us incorporate the international legal protections that they deserve? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Sioned, for the support.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I think it really is well appreciated, and I think being able to stand and speak in solidarity on issues and matters that make such a difference to people—we're talking about people's lives aren't we—and being able to—. We talk about taking action, but you can't underestimate people speaking up and challenging and taking the right position on these things. There's very little for me to disagree with on anything you said there, particularly around supporting a nation of sanctuary and what we can do on that, and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

If I touch first perhaps on what you said around transgender people in sport, and that is something that seems to have—. Like you say, I actually happily missed Nadine Dorries's comments, but I will go and look at that and see what she said once again. But, I think, one of the things you have to say is, we know, as we've said before, the transgender community appears to be one of the most ostracised and unprotected, and failure to recognise and address that, whether that's in sport or in other areas, is a failure in our duty and our mission to secure equality and inclusion. If we're saying our position is clear that LGBTQ+ rights, including trans rights, are human rights, then sport needs to be a place where everyone can take part, and everyone is treated with kindness, dignity and respect. And I think it has to start from a position of—. I could hear murmurs of support in this place here. Sport, in its very essence, is an opportunity to be inclusive and to include people in different communities. And we're not just talking about elite sport; we're talking right across the board as well.

And, I think, very much, we have to start from a position of compassion, fairness and transparency. Those kinds of conversations have already taken place with some of those sporting bodies, and I'm going to be working very closely with my colleague Dawn Bowden from that perspective. It's something that I certainly am going to take forward and move forward now, in terms of actually how we can make sure things are done in this way. I was at a PinkNews event—well, a Parliament reception, which wasn't in Parliament—last week, and I actually met with the cyclist Emily Bridges there, and I've actually invited Emily to come and visit us here to share her experiences, so that we can learn from that and better support and use people's lived experiences too. It's incredibly important that I'm an ally of that community, but I'm not of that community, and I think it's really important, like with anything we do, they are shaping our work and our way forward as well.

If I could just touch on the points you made around hate crime and the rise in hate crime, I think some of it is two-fold, that people are more willing to report it, but unfortunately there is an increase in hate crime. I think we've spoken in this Chamber before about raising awareness, through our Hate Hurts Wales campaigns and the work that we do, that hate crime takes many different forms. At it's extreme and horrific end, it is violent, and, as we've seen, it can lead to really devastating consequences, here in our own capital city. But it's also people thinking that they can say whatever they want to people, and I know I've spoken to things that I've experienced before, here. I find it very difficult at the moment that my wife is a target because of me. I know that she's had a phone call to her work number in this place by somebody who, essentially, was speaking in tongues, told her she was going to burn in hell. Our police forces are trying hard, and we're working very closely with them, but I do think there's more work to do in terms of actually how they handle and treat things like that, because it really wasn't dealt with adequately. And I think these things do need to be improved.

I think that support needs to be there in place for people to actually feel they can report things, because we're not going to change things unless people feel they have that support. And I think there are different ways of doing it—going through the process, from reporting to making it being registered as a hate crime, but actually what's done about it in the future. Also, it goes back to what we're trying to do around education as well. And I keep reading over and over, too often, about other people that are experiencing similar things. It goes back to what we were saying about calling things out. I think there is a challenge for all of us in this place, within our own communities, within our own organisations, within our own political parties, to have a difficult conversation—it can be, sometimes—to take the right approach, and to call this out and actually say, 'This is the impact some of the words, some of the so-called "debate" that people have, can lead to, and the impact and the harm and hurt that it can cause for individual people and whole communities.'

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, thank you very much for your statement today. I just wanted to say a little bit about local authorities in Wales and the important role that they have, and ask if you would agree with me that Newport City Council are actually doing a lot of good things at the moment and making real progress on these issues. I know they're fully committed to supporting the Welsh Government's LGBTQ+ action plan, and they have very strong links with communities across the city of Newport, and they have a Pride staff network within the authority, which I think is really delivering results in terms of their internal organisation, but also linking out then to the community.

They've been working with Pride in the Port, and I was pleased that you mentioned them earlier. There will be a march in Newport in September, the first Pride march organised by Pride in the Port, with the local authority in support. There are lots of activities now throughout the local community, the raising of the Progress Pride flag by the council leader and Pride in the Port to celebrate Pride Month. There's an awful lot actually going on at the moment, including an event and a safe space at the Riverfront Theatre, which was created, again, to take forward these activities—to send the right messages. Obviously, you want to work closely with local authorities in Wales, Minister, and I wonder if you would confirm what I hope is the case, that Newport City Council is showing a good example at the moment and doing lots of promising things.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Can I thank John Griffiths for that contribution? I think he's right to shine a light on the role, not just of Newport City Council, but actually the significant part that local authorities can play in our communities, in terms of not just supporting Pride events, but then going back to what Altaf said in terms of their own networks, how they support their own staff, and actually how they create inclusive spaces and opportunities for people in communities—it could be in a city, or whether that's in more urban, more rural communities as well. So, yes, I would very much like to join with you in congratulating Newport City Council, and Jane Hutt—Jane Mudd, sorry. Jane Hutt shows leadership on this as well. [Laughter.] Congratulations to Jane Mudd, as leader of Newport City Council. I was actually talking to Jane at the Wales Armed Forces Day in Wrexham on Saturday, because the baton's being handed over to Newport for next year. And we were talking very excitedly and animatedly about the potential Pride in the Port has, because, as I've said before in this place, and I'll say over and over again, those kinds of landmark Pride events, such as the one in our capital city, are important. We can't underestimate the value of events in communities and cities right across the country. So, Pride in the Port I know is 3 September. I hope to be there myself, and I know Jayne Bryant has actually been in touch with me to get that on my agenda, to make sure I can try and get it in the diary. And I would invite Members to join us on as many Pride marches as we can across the summer, as, actually, we are able to come together in this way as a community once again after the coronavirus pandemic.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for this statement on the action plan today. Last week, we celebrated, as you said, what would have been the birthday of Welshman, Terrence Higgins, and remembered his passing 40 years ago from an AIDS-related illness. Terry was named as the first person in the UK to die from AIDS, but the crisis caused gay and bisexual men to face horrific homophobia and stigma. This undoubtedly contributed to many more lives being lost.

And, whilst we have come a long way in acknowledging this homophobia associated with the HIV and AIDS crisis of the 1980s, it was alarming to see the tropes in the media and public discourse with the reporting of the monkey pox virus recently. The othering, the framing of queer people as a threat, the stereotypes, the negative connotations were reproduced in our mainstream media, as if the lessons from the last 40 years had never happened. And that's why we need governments to be active in tackling homophobia in all its forms, and that is why I welcome this update on the Welsh Government's LGBT action plan today. As you've said, it is about having a place of inclusion and solidarity, as opposed to division and alienation. Whether it is the systemic prejudice in our establishments, those holding public positions or online hate, we still have a long way to go to stamp this out, as we've seen.

So, Minister, will you agree with me, in endorsing the statement, to say to all people who may be struggling, facing discrimination or prejudice, 'There is nothing wrong with you; there is a lot wrong with the world in which we live'? Also, it's about emphasising and really coming out and saying to those people who are making those comments about the monkey pox virus that it's ignorant, it's absurd, it's dangerous, it's insulting, and to put the blame for that on the LGBTQ+ community is absolutely unacceptable.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Sarah, for those very well-said comments there in terms of calling out the risk of history repeating itself in terms of ignorance. Do you know what? I don't actually think it's ignorance half the time, unfortunately; it's intentional. And that kind of othering and the homophobia, that kind of low level, almost, sometimes—. It's inferred homophobia that is latent in some of these things. I'm really pleased that 40 years after the AIDS crisis—. Also, you talked about Terrence Higgins, and I know my colleague Jeremy Miles sponsored an event in this place last week, to launch the Welsh Government's new HIV action plan. That demonstrates how far we've come, but also recognises that we still have a road to travel in terms of tackling stigma and homophobia. I very much would join in with you in what you said, and a message to all LGBTQ+ people in Wales and beyond that you are amazing, you are valued, you are loved for who you are.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Before we move to the Stage 3 debate on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, I will suspend proceedings for 10 minutes, in accordance with Standing Order 12.18. The bell will be rung five minutes before reconvening. Please, could all Members ensure they return promptly, so that voting preparations can take place?

5. Debate: Stage 3 of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That brings us to the Stage 3 debate on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill.

Group 1: Establishment of the Commission and appointment and terms of its members (Amendments 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 119)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will now discuss the first group of amendments, which relate to the establishment of the commission, and appointment and terms of its members. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 120, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the lead amendment and to speak to other amendments in the group. Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd, for this opportunity to contribute to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill. I will speak to my amendments 119 to 160. This group of amendments serves to ensure proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission surrounding the terms of remit.

With such a substantial budget to be at the disposal of the commission, it is only right that annual letters of remit are utilised to ensure that an arm's-length body can run efficiently, particularly when the likes of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales still believe there is a real risk of this single body not being able to achieve its strategic outcomes. We want to avoid the danger of allowing the Welsh Government to take action at operational level, as it would clearly create unclear governance arrangements, which in turn would cause delay and confusion. Crucially, these amendments will serve to make the appointment of the members of the commission, as well as the chair and members of the research and innovation committee, subject to a Senedd appointment process, as in previous amendments tabled in relation to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020. While I am disappointed that we find ourselves having to resubmit these amendments, my group and I's determination to ensure maximum independence for the commission compels me to table these amendments and stress their importance yet again.

On amendment 161, I'm seeking to omit the lines in the Bill that provide powers for the commission for tertiary education and research to restructure sixth form education. These are not powers that belong within the remit of the commission, and there is no reason to believe, even for a moment, that sixth form education across Wales would stand to benefit from interference of this nature.

Finally, on amendment 119, I am resubmitting this amendment as I still firmly believe in extending the time of the application of the Bill. It's important to allow for further consideration of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021. We need real reassurance that the Bill's application will not be impacted by any of the legal proceedings between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Turning to the Minister's amendments, I don't think they entirely address concerns set out in Stage 2 about the modification of strategic plans, as they are still allowed that power. Yes, it's been diluted a little, but only a little. I'd like to have seen that the Minister had adapted these plans to ensure that the commission will truly be an arm's-length body through his amendments tabled today. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have no speakers. I call on the Minister to respond to this group of amendments.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to consider the amendments to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill today.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Before I speak to the amendments in this group, I'd like to place on record my thanks to the committees and all the Members for their scrutiny of this Bill, and particularly to those Members who've tabled amendments to the Bill today. Whilst it has not been possible to agree all amendments, may I place on record my assurance to Members that I have considered carefully each and every amendment tabled?

Turning to the amendments in this group, as I indicated when this was tabled at Stage 2, I reject amendment 119, which delays the affected provisions being brought into force until 1 January 2024. This will prevent the making of any commencement Orders, including in respect of those powers necessary to make preparatory arrangements to support the implementation of the commission in a manner that ensures continuity of provision for the sector and supports a smooth transition to the commission. In establishing the new commission, the Bill will bring together for the first time the funding, oversight and regulation of tertiary education and research in Wales, putting learners at its heart. As I've previously stated, the change is overdue, and it's essential it can happen as soon as practicable, whilst ensuring the implementation is robust and that stakeholders are not overburdened. In respect of the internal market Act, which I think is the reference the Member was making, I can confirm I don't consider there are any implications for this Bill, and I don't consider it warrants a significant delay to the implementation.

I also reject amendment 120, which requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to the commission with respect to the manner in which it should exercise its functions and also review that guidance annually. When speaking to the amendment, Laura Anne Jones referred to it providing for an annual remit letter, in effect, and I don't consider that this amendment would actually provide for that, and in general terms we want to move to a longer term horizon, rather than the annual arrangements currently in place. Critically, I don't consider the amendment supports the principle of the commission being an arm's-length body. Instead, it provides for a bureaucratic and onerous process that risks significantly affecting the commission's ability to take the long-term strategic view that we wish it to take.

I am confident that our approach of the commission operating at arm's length from the Government, within a strategic planning and funding framework, is the correct way forward to meet our ambitions. This approach would not, however, prevent us from providing the commission with an annual remit letter, where necessary and appropriate, as that option remains part of the standard relationship between the Welsh Government and a sponsored body. In addition, section 20 of the Bill requires the commission to have regard to any guidance the Welsh Ministers may issue in respect of its functions under the Bill, the difference here being that guidance can be issued if needed as opposed to a duty to issue guidance on all of the commission's functions immediately, regardless of whether a need for such guidance has arisen. It is not my intention to issue guidance to the commission on all of their functions. As the national steward for tertiary education in Wales, I intend the commission to be provided with the autonomy to operate as an arm's-length body.

I also reject the remaining amendments in this group, which undermine the long-standing practice of ministerial appointments to public bodies. As I have confirmed during the previous stages, Llywydd, the chair and deputy chair and the chief executive will appear in front of the relevant Senedd committee for introductory hearings. In light of that, I call on Members to reject all the amendments in this group.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Laura Anne Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for your response, Minister. I'm disappointed, yet not surprised, that the Minister has rejected my amendments, but I would like to stress the importance yet again of ensuring proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission concerning its remit. I also feel we must emphasise the absolute necessity of an efficient arm's-length approach being guaranteed, and the value that extending the time of the application of the Bill would bring. It's imperative to the success of the commission that it has autonomy and independence to truly feel able to make decisions deemed necessary without the undue influence of Welsh Government Ministers.

I know what the Minister has said previously about the public appointments process, as we've heard it before in a previous health Minister's arguments on the citizen voice body during the passage of the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020, and most recently, at Stage 2 of this Bill. While of course we don't want to be overprescriptive about the commission's structure, I and my group have become increasingly concerned that certain appointments are closer to the Welsh Government than being truly independent. Granted, we have a small pool to work with in Wales, but I think there is a case to be made that Members of the commission should have been questioned and evaluated by the committee. I'm not sure if the Minister's response in the committee has allayed my own concerns about the separation of Welsh Government and the commission, especially as he didn't consider any provision needed to be placed on the face of the Bill. I move our amendments.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question is that amendment 120 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 120. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 121, is it being moved? Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 121. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore we will move to a vote on amendment 121. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 121 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Laura Anne Jones, amendment 122. Is it being moved?

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 122. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is. We'll therefore move to vote on amendment 122.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 122 in the name of Laura Anne Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 122 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 123, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question that amendment 123 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. We will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 123.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 123, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 123 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 124, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question is that amendment 124 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 124.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 124, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 124 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 125, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are there objections to amendment 125? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 125. Open the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 125, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 125 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 126.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 126, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is, to gwelliant 126. We'll move to a vote on amendment 126, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 126 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 127, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are there any objections to amendment 127? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 127.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 127, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 127 is therefore not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 128, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Is there any objection to amendment 128? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 128.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's amendment 128, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 128 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 129, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

129 is moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are there any objections to amendment 129? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 129. Open the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 129, in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 129 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 130, are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 130. Open the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 130 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 131, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 131 is moved. Is there an objection to 131? [Objection.] Yes, there is.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 131. Open the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 131 in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 131 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 132.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 132, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are there any objections to amendment 132? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 132.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 132 in the name of Laura Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Very effective.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 132 is not agreed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment 133, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's moved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are there any objections to amendment 133? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 133. Open the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Amendment—[Inaudible.]