Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 18 May 2022

304 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Good afternoon. Welcome, everyone, to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change is the first item, and the first question comes from Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the management of water levels in Llyn Clywedog reservoir, Powys? OQ58059

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you very much, Cefin Campbell, for the question. The management of water levels and releases from the Clywedog reservoir are governed by well-established and clear legislation. The Environment Agency in England has responsibility for managing the releases and water levels, in consultation with Natural Resources Wales.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. Recently I had a meeting with a number of farmers in the Llanidloes area in Powys and I discussed with them concerns about how water levels are managed in the Clywedog reservoir and the impact this was having further down the valley, with agricultural land and property being affected by flooding as recently as February this year.

Now, my fellow Member for Montgomeryshire, Russell George, has already drawn the attention of the Senedd to this, and apparently there is considerable ambiguity regarding who manages the reservoir and the water discharges—whether it's the Environment Agency in England or NRW. I know that water is a very emotive issue in Wales and that this reservoir was established to provide water and to mitigate flooding away from Wales, so I'm sure you understand local concerns. And it is arguable that mismanagement across institutions has caused flooding on this side of the border. So, may I ask what discussions the Welsh Government has had with the different agencies to address any concerns regarding flood management on Wales's side and can you confirm whether there is an intention to expand the Clywedog reservoir in the future?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, thank you very much for that series of queries. And of course we understand the sensitivity of these kinds of issues for the people of Wales and also for all the people who rely on the rivers and catchment areas for a variety of things, including their drinking water.

So, as I'm sure you already know, Hafren Dyfrdwy owns the Clywedog reservoir. Proposals for additional use of the water or transfer options should be included in the company's water resource management plan. Both the Environment Agency and NRW recognise the impacts of high water flows to local landlords and further downstream on the River Severn. And all the organisations involved have committed to undertaking a long-term review to modernise the management of the reservoir to best meet the challenges of the future, which is obviously a really complicated thing to do, and which is likely to take quite a considerable period of time and new legislation to ensure that sustainable long-term change. Meanwhile, NRW is working with the Environment Agency to implement any possible changes to the working procedures under the current rules and legislation that could improve the current operation of the scheme, drawing on experiences of managing other comparable systems in Wales and elsewhere. The changes should have a beneficial impact on flood alleviation given the nature of the catchments, but it's unlikely that these changes could make significant differences during repeated rainfall events of the magnitude we've seen over the last few years, and hence the need for the longer term review of the whole process.

Our policy is obviously to reduce and manage the risk of flooding to people and communities over the next decade and it's set out in the national flood strategy. It underlines the importance we place on flood risk and the growing risks associated with climate change from the flooding and coastal erosion.

Also, as part of the longer term planning for water supply, we're looking at schemes that could supply water where deficits are predicted over the next 50 years. Hafren Dyfrdwy, which operates the reservoir, as I've already said, and Severn Trent are looking at a joint scheme to look at the feasibility for the dam so that more water could be sent down the River Severn during dry periods—so the exact opposite of the flooding—to maintain water flow in the river, where a deficit is forecast. But that doesn't feature in the current draft water resource management plan, which is signed off by Welsh Ministers anyway. So, if that comes forward, it will certainly come to us to look at so that we can be satisfied that that is fit for purpose, both for the Severn catchment area and for the people locally.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, I'm grateful to Cefin Campbell for raising this issue, an issue I've raised a number of times previously, about the frustrations that landowners have downstream as a result of, as they see it—and I would agree—the need for the operational rules to be changed for the Clywedog dam. Now, I understand it's a complex issue—I've raised this many times with your predecessors as well—but can I ask what consideration the Welsh Government has given to the payment to landowners for the managed flooding of land, where that would then help to alleviate flooding of properties perhaps further downstream? And also, Minister, I am aware, or—I attended a meeting with various stakeholders, including NRW, the Environment Agency, with the UK Government Minister Rebecca Pow, earlier this year—I know, from that meeting, the Minister was going to write to you to ask for further collaboration and working together. I wonder, have you received that letter, have you responded, and what are the discussions that you're having with the UK Government Minister Rebecca Pow in terms of coming up with a collaborative approach for the better management, and for reviewing the operating rules, of Clywedog dam?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, I was aware that Minister Pow had visited the reservoir. And in fact, I discussed it with her beforehand, in an inter-ministerial group, but I think she probably mentioned that at the time. We're very keen to work across the border for the catchment areas that flow across the border, and indeed to share good practice where that's effective for the communities on either side of the border. Because, obviously, there are a number of catchments in England that don't cross into the Welsh border, but can nevertheless learn lessons from some of the natural flood protections that we're doing here in Wales, for example. So, we have had that exchange of letters.

And you know probably better than I do, actually, Russell, about the River Severn and its environmental importance as a special area of conservation river for Wales, for a whole series of uses, including drinking water and flood protection, drought protection, and so on. So, part of the long-term plan that I just mentioned in answer to Cefin Campbell is to look at what exactly it is that we're asking of the landowners—the riparian landowners and the adjoining landowners—along the River Severn catchment and around the reservoir, to work out what the long-term plan for that should look like, ought to look like, in collaboration with those landowners, and then to bring forward what we expect will be legislative change in order to bring about the ability to better manage that system. But that's a long-term strategy, which is in progress at the moment, and, obviously, I'm very happy to keep you and Cefin and others informed as we go ahead with that process.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that new sources of cheap, clean energy for Wales are implemented as quickly as possible? OQ58049

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you for the question, Laura. We are using every lever available to us to develop the clean, smart and flexible energy system of the future, with renewable energy generation at its heart. The UK Government's energy strategy was a missed opportunity, we feel, to set a credible path for scaling up all renewables while supporting consumers through the immediate cost-of-living crisis.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. Can the Minister confirm that, through the building of new nuclear power plants, in both Wylfa and Trawsfynydd, Wales has a crucial role to play in securing long-term supply for the UK?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

It's really nice to see a renewed interest in Wylfa and the development there. We're very keen to work—. We have a centre of excellence nearby for nuclear, and we have some of the world experts here in Wales for that. So, I'm very pleased to see the UK Government's renewed interest in that—maybe should have been a bit faster, quite frankly, over some of the more recent issues we've had, as everybody is aware, up there on Ynys Môn, with that. Having said that, obviously, nuclear is clean and renewable, but there are issues with nuclear, and I don't want to see an over-reliance on nuclear when we have an abundance of other natural resources here in Wales that can be exploited as part of a good, renewable energy system.

Just this morning, I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee of the Houses of Parliament, in fact, about the need for good grid planning—in our view, devolution of the grid to Wales, so that we can have that plan—and a shift from what's currently a market-led and market-driven approach to grid, which has left us with no transmission in mid Wales, as your colleague Russell George and I have had numerous occasions on the floor of the Senedd and elsewhere about—transmission lines north and south being inadequate, because it's driven by a need for a particular developer to attach to the grid rather than a planned approach, and that, clearly, isn't a sustainable approach for the future. So, I welcome the UK Government's commitment to having an energy strategy. I regret that it includes oil and gas—I think that's a very retrograde step for net zero. But, the really fundamental thing is to get them into the space so they understand the need for a proper plan, and this is a good step on that path, so that we can plan out our future needs, as we are doing here in Wales, for our regional partners and get that grid in place so that we can have what is a fit-for-purpose twenty-first and twenty-second century grid, so we can take advantage here in Wales of the best renewable energy generation, keeping the cost low for people here in Wales and exporting that renewable energy out into the world, because we have easily the capacity to do that.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

If David Cameron hadn't, as he put it, 'cut the green crap' a decade ago, we'd be further along on renewable and nuclear and energy efficiency, and households would be paying less for energy, not more. So, I agree that we need to catch up, but the other side of the coin to energy generation is energy efficiency. So, can you say, Minister, how the forthcoming new Warm Homes programme might build on the success of the previous scheme, which delivered free home-efficiency measures like central heating boilers and insulation to more than 4,500 households across Wales?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you very much, Joyce—I couldn't agree more. There's a need for a planned grid; there's a need for a grid planned for a different scale of attachment to that grid as well. One of the things we're very proud of doing here in Wales, of course, is having the Homes as Power Stations initiative. This is about retrofitting homes so that they come up to the best possible standard, reduce fuel poverty, reduce energy demand and consumption—both of those parts of the equation are absolutely essential—and can also be put into a position where they can take advantage of the renewable electricity supplies that the communities of Wales will host, because their homes are able to be retrofitted properly. That comes out of our approach, which is the pptimised retrofit programme, which, as all Members will know, because I've talked about it a lot in this Chamber, is looking at what tech works for what kind of house in Wales, because one size does not fit all by any means. Then, it will enable us to work with the energy companies to use things like community benefits and community ownership to bring those houses up to standard. It's a win-win for the energy companies because then they'll have more customers for their energy that can be used in that clean and efficient way. So, all our programmes—the Warm Homes programme and all the others, our innovative housing programme and our energy programme—are all designed to produce a number of those solutions that make up the fit-for-the-future grid.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar, first of all. These questions are to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, the announcement last week that the UK and Welsh Governments have reached an agreement to establish a new free port in Wales is hugely exciting. This multimillion-pound agreement has the potential to deliver thousands of local jobs, driving innovation and boosting business investment, bringing benefits and opportunities to communities that need it the most. Both Governments have agreed that they would be prepared to consider the case for a further additional free port in Wales if a truly exceptional proposal were presented at the bidding stage. What discussions have you had, Deputy Minister, with ministerial colleagues and interested parties about encouraging bids for free-port status, and what support are you personally providing to ensure that these bids are of the best possible quality so that Wales derives the maximum benefit from this £26 million-investment of UK Government funding? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

We are pleased, clearly, that we've been able to finally reach an agreement with the UK Government on the free ports. It has been a more protracted discussion than it ought to have been, and the way in which it was conducted was not ideal, but I'm pleased that we reached there in the end. My colleague Vaughan Gething showed considerable patience to get us to a satisfactory outcome, and he's been leading those discussions. I was very keen to make sure, as part of our agreement, we had a porous boundary between the different ports in Wales to allow collaboration, particularly for them to exploit the opportunities of marine energy and seeing the ports as a key piece of infrastructure to enable us to take advantage of the economic opportunities as well as the sustainability opportunities of offshore wind in the Celtic sea.

So, there is now agreement that the Treasury and the UK Government will look at bids for co-joining different ports, which could allow Milford and Port Talbot to present a joint bid, and there are words in the agreement that allow us to explore more than one bid. But they are caveated, as Natasha Asghar pointed out, by the UK Government's view of the quality of those bids, but there's been no definition of what a quality bid looks like. So, there's an ongoing conversation. We are keen to seize on the opportunities and we remain to have misgivings about the central thrust of the policy, but we are determined to work together for the best interests of Wales.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Transport for Wales has warned that the cost of the south Wales metro project is expected to be significantly over its £734 million budget. Although no firm indications of the expected amount of overspend have been given, it is forecast to run into tens of millions of pounds. The south Wales metro project has a complex supply chain, with the availability of construction material being impacted by the pandemic and increasing costs. Once the contingency for any overspend has been exceeded, the extra cost will inevitably have to be met by the Welsh Government. So, Deputy Minister, what discussions have you had regarding making contingency plans for such a situation, and is there a danger that the completion of the south Wales metro will be delayed, with all the environmental and financial implications that it may entail? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Members will be aware of today's announcement that UK inflation has hit the 9 per cent mark in April. Inflation within the construction industry is hitting closer to 30 per cent, so any infrastructure project is being hit by increased costs; that, I'm afraid, is inevitable, given the way that inflation is running rampant. So, yes, of course, the metro project is not immune to that, and costs will be impacted. We are looking at that closely to understand the implications on the speed of the deployment and the scale of the deployment. I met with the chief executive of Transport for Wales last week to discuss this. We don't have a clear picture—how can we, given the way that the state of the economy is moving—of the final outcome of this, but we are committed to the metro.

Our position would certainly be helped if the UK Government was able to deliver Wales's share of railway infrastructure spending. Currently, we are funding this entirely by ourselves, with some help from EU funds. But, as we've rehearsed in this Chamber many times, if we had our share of the HS2 project, Wales would have £5 billion into the block grant, which we would be able to draw upon to improve investment. I repeat my call to Natasha Asghar and her colleagues again to please join with us in a cross-party effort to make representations to the UK Government to do what the Tory-led Welsh Affairs Committee said was the right thing to do, which is to Barnettise the spend of HS2 to allow Wales to get our share of UK spend. I would certainly welcome her help in making that case jointly.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thanks, Deputy Minister. As you know better than anyone, your Government is currently trialling pilot schemes to introduce 20 mph speed limits on all restricted roads in Wales. In Caldicot, in my region of South Wales East, local residents are complaining that congestion has got worse since this limit was introduced, especially at school opening and closing times. Cars are, and I quote, 'crawling along the road at a lower gear causing pollution, and frustration is causing drivers to speed up and exceed limits as soon as they have the opportunity to do so.' In Abergavenny, another part of my region, the imposition of a 20 mph speed limit on Monmouth Road, which carries the A40 from the Hardwick roundabout, has been branded as unworkable and dangerous by local residents.

I have no problem—and I'd like to put this on record—with reduced speed limits on roads where there is large pedestrian activity, such as outside shops, schools, high streets, places of worship et cetera. However, Deputy Minister, it is clear that this blanket 20 mph speed restriction is causing major problems on busy commuter roads. So, Deputy Minister, my question is: are your pilot schemes genuinely intended to inform your proposals, or are they simply a mere smokescreen for plans that are already a done deal? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

In the last Senedd, we had cross-party support for introducing the policy of 20 mph speed limits on local roads. We set up a taskforce that consulted very widely and involved stakeholders in working through the detail of the best way to design and implement this policy. One of the things it agreed was that we would pilot in eight areas different approaches to making sure that this could be introduced smoothly when it goes live next year. We'll need to come back to the Senedd shortly before that is able to go ahead. The purpose of those pilots is sincere: to understand and learn about the best way to implement it.

The Member mentioned a range of objections that I'm familiar with. Some of them I think are fair, some of them are a consequence of some people simply resisting change and not wanting to adhere to lower speed limits. The survey has shown broadly 80 per cent of people in favour of the policy, 20 per cent of people against. Those 20 per cent of people are making themselves heard, but I don't think we should see that as evidence of a wholesale rejection of the policy—far from it. I think there is broad support, even in those communities that she mentioned. So, there are going to be learning opportunities from the pilots.

She mentioned the issue of a blanket approach to 20 mph. It is not the intention to have a blanket approach to 20 mph. One of the things that's being piloted is the so-called exemptions process. Broadly speaking, Transport for Wales has worked out a formula for which roads it thinks should be captured by the 20. Every community will have a chance to be consulted upon that, and there will be an opportunity for local councils, who are the highway authorities, to say which roads should be excluded—which roads are better kept at 30 mph. In the pilot areas, that process of exemption is being tested. Certainly, we have seen in Buckley in Flintshire a great deal of unease about the way that that has been implemented. I think that there are lots of lessons for councils and for the Welsh Government to learn from that. That is the whole point of piloting it—to try it, learn from it and adapt. That's what we intend to do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, there was a highly critical report that was published by the Office for Environmental Protection. It was warning the UK Government that the progress to deliver on environmental commitments in England is too slow, and it makes recommendations for urgent action. It emphasises the need for legally binding targets.

We have had this discussion, I know, Minister, a number of times before. We know that the plight of the environment is no less serious in Wales, but we still don't have an independent body that can hold the Government to account. I know that people can raise concerns about the functioning of environmental law with the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales, but that interim assessor doesn't have the powers to investigate and take action about perceived failures or breaches of the law by public bodies.

The Office for Environmental Protection has a public-facing website, and it has consulted on a draft strategy on its enforcement policy, but none of that is true at present about the interim assessor's work, in terms of it not being in the public domain. So, do you recognise, Minister, that there is a gap that is unacceptable in terms of environmental governance in Wales? Can you provide reassurance to the Chamber, please, that you will bring forward legislation to establish an independent environmental governance body and nature recovery targets for Wales in the second year of this Senedd?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, we are absolutely going to do that. I'm not going to promise it in the second year, Delyth, because I'm in the hands of the legislative programme to some extent. We have a large number of competing priorities, unfortunately, and it's about what's in the best position to go forward at any point in time and how we can get it through the committee systems, and so on. It's not about whether we think that it's a priority. We do think that it's a priority.

I'm really delighted that we have just started the biodiversity deep dive process. I'm really, really pleased with how that went last week. We have a whole series of them now, running forward. Just to explain, we have the core group for that, but we also have a series of stakeholder meetings involved with that and expert groups involved with that. Then, I will be making a statement to the Senedd. I hope that we'll be able to have something at the Royal Welsh, by way of a public engagement process on that as well, once the process for this initial phase of it has passed.

The whole purpose of that is to tell us how to get to 30x30, what the target should be, and how we should structure that for Wales in a way that really makes a difference on the ground. I think that we share the view that that needs to happen. I absolutely want to put in place an independent body that holds our feet to the fire, but I want to know what they are holding our feet to the fire about, and how we can put them in the best possible position to do that, before we go for it. So, I am really looking forward to the outcome of the deep dive, which will be the first big step on the route to being able to do that.

Then, I hope, Llywydd, that we will be able to have a session in the Senedd that gets us all into the same space about how we should take that forward. There will be difficult decisions along the way. If we are going to protect 30 per cent of our landscape to the level that we want to, that is going to affect people who live in that landscape and who work and want to make a decent home and life out of it. So, it's important to get it right, so that we get that buy-in, as well as just the targets.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that, Minister. I certainly welcome the deep dive, and I agree with you about the need to be honest and realistic with ourselves, and with the people of Wales, about how there are going to have to be some difficult decisions being made. I would still press you that, really, unless we have this legislation being brought forward in the second year, I worry about how much it could creep further. But I know that that is something, I trust, that you will keep pushing for within the Government as much as possible. I hope that you will.

You have said previously that you wish to see these nature recovery targets for Wales informed by global targets to be agreed at the COP15 summit. This summit has already been subject to delay. There is continuing uncertainty about when it is going to go ahead. All the while, we are in a nature emergency. One in six species in Wales is at risk of extinction in Wales. I know that we often say that statistic, but really, I think that, sometimes, we need to step outside ourselves, almost, to think how devastating that is really going to be.

Could you confirm that the legislation for nature recovery targets, when it is brought forward—? I take your point about how you don't know yet whether it can be in the second year of the Senedd, although again I really do push you on that, please. Will that be affected by any further delays in the COP15 summit, or are there processes within the Government to make sure that that is not going to be a further hindrance to the introduction, please?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

It's a real shame that it's been delayed for a variety of reasons. That really is a shame for the globe, never mind for Wales. One of the pieces of work that I want to see happening, and this is part of the deep dive process as well, to get advice on this, is how we can structure the targets so that they can be tightened but not loosened. It's easy to structure targets that can be changed, but I want to put a process in place where those targets can be accelerated but not relaxed easily. I mean, obviously, any Senedd could overturn the entire legislation and relax them, but we want a process whereby some methodology, statutory instruments, regulations—I don't know, something; it's what I have people working on—can accelerate those targets or add in new ones as appropriate as the evidence comes forward from COP and other processes, but not give us the discretion to be able to row back on them for any reason. That's really easy for me to say, but it's actually quite hard to do. So, part of what we're trying to work on is, with these experts, is that possible, and if so how can we do it.

It's about the initial targets, what the 30x30 thing looks like. Thirty per cent by 2030—that's great to say, but what does that actually mean? What is the 30 per cent? Thirty per cent of what? And is it 30 per cent of Wales or 30 per cent of every local authority area or 30 per cent of every community? What are we actually talking about? And then what are the 30 per cent of species that we're talking about? Or is it 30 per cent across all species or what? I don't know the answer to any of those questions yet. So, part of what we're doing is, 'What is the answer? Is there an answer? What's the consensus view?', and then how can we have an accelerating process to get more and more species and pieces of land protected, because we don't also want a system where we've got 30 per cent of land beautifully preserved and 70 per cent of land that's paved. That's clearly also not what we want.

This is all about the balance, how we use the 30 per cent, perhaps, as exemplars, how do we use that as a showcase for what can be done elsewhere in Wales, how can we get as much of the land mass of Wales included, and as many of the species and so on. So, it's an easy thing to say, but it actually turns out to be really, really complicated to do it in a way that's meaningful and actually holds our feet to the fire in a way that I can't just stand up and say, 'Oh yes, 30 per cent of all the land of Wales is currently protected', because that's not where any of us want to be. So, it's not for want of wanting to do it; it's for want of wanting to get it right that we're carrying on with these processes.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

3. How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to tackle the climate and nature emergency? OQ58051

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you very much, Carolyn Thomas. We are working very closely with local authorities to tackle the climate and nature emergencies, together with our partnership council, the local government climate change strategy group and the local nature partnership network. Our funding to the Welsh Local Government Association, and through Local Places for Nature, supports our work.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for the answer, Minister. The Welsh local government elections have shown that there is a clear mandate across Wales for progressive policies to tackle the big issues our society faces, and perhaps the biggest threat is posed by climate change. Minister, how do you plan to ensure that the climate and nature emergency is high on the Cabinet agenda of the new Welsh authorities, as high as it is here in the Senedd and with Welsh Government? I've been really impressed at how much it's talked about here in the Chamber since becoming elected. I know that they are also facing pressures in delivering front-line services as well, so very often they're hitting the ground running all the time to deal with those issues. How can we make sure that it's high up on the agenda as well as tackling those really important front-line services? Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

It's a very good point, isn't it, because we all recognise the challenge of balancing the day-to-day daily grind, if you want to put it like that, with a focus on critical and strategic work that's needed to respond to the climate and nature emergencies. I think I said yesterday in one of my statements that my colleague Rebecca Evans and I will be working with the new leadership teams in local government to work with the newly formed cabinets, the individual cabinet members, to make sure that there is no slacking off of the agenda. Prior to the local government elections, we had really good buy-in across all local authorities on this piece, and I don't anticipate any different result from the outcome now. We had some really interesting conversations with leaders who were leaders before the election, and continue to be leaders now, about structuring their cabinet in a way that has resource efficiency and climate emergency as a very serious part of their Cabinet portfolio work, and I hope to see at least some of those portfolio positions coming through. It's all about making sure that it stays at that strategic leadership level and doesn't slide down the organisation and lose focus.

So, I'm really clear that the political will is there. We'll do some central co-ordination as we always do with the WLGA and through the partnership council to keep this, and it's a standing item on the partnership council agenda, and continues to be. And we've allocated £1.49 million for WLGA to deliver the support programme to help authorities do a once-for-Wales approach with a lot of this. Can I just say, while I'm at it, that the work you've been doing on the verges and No Mow May and so on has been really helpful? I had a really interesting meeting yesterday in Torfaen with a No Mow May piece of amenity ground funded by a Local Places for Nature that's been building on some of the work you've done, which we're hoping to build on very much as we go forward.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Minister, I certainly welcome your continued commitment to work closely with local authorities, particularly in this area of climate and nature emergency. As previously stated, I believe local authorities can play a crucial part in supporting and delivering the ambition for a greener and stronger economy here in Wales, and a prime example of this in my part of the Wales, in north Wales, has been the work of the Mersey Dee Alliance, and with local authorities there, working with local authorities across the border in England and other organisations, to look at delivering thousands of green jobs, such as the work around the hydrogen infrastructure, which will make a huge difference to the economy more broadly. So, in light of that, I wonder if you could outline how you see further opportunities for local authorities to play their part in supporting delivering a stronger economy, such as those green jobs that the Mersey Dee Alliance are looking to deliver, which will of course help to tackle the climate and nature emergency. Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, absolutely, Sam, and that hits the nail on the head, doesn't it, really? Because this is about the climate and nature emergencies, but it's also about changing the mindset to see that as an opportunity, an economic opportunity, a tourism opportunity and a whole series of services opportunities, as opposed to a barrier to that kind of thing. I think we've worked really hard to do that with our local authorities across Wales, and with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board and its various iterations. I know you played a pivotal part in much of that in your previous role too. So, we continue to work very hard with our local authority partnerships and regions to do some of this work. And then just to give one small example of how these things snowball, I'm very pleased that Wales retains its third-in-the-world on recycling, and we're about to roll that out to businesses in Wales. We've got a lot of positive consultation back from businesses whose mindsets have really changed over the last five years or so; their customers want them to be better in this space, with the whole global view of packaging that's completely changed in the last five years.

But off the back of the recycled material that we're now able to provide in Wales to re-processors, we are getting re-processor requests to come here to Wales and put new plants in Wales for recycled material that we don't even have yet. So, they're saying, 'If you collected this particular material, separately as well, then we could use it in Wales to create jobs and economic opportunities', particularly in places like the Mersey Dee Alliance, because of the wealth of material that would be got from a collection regime there. So, it's just one example, and there are many others, of the snowballing effect economically of doing the right thing for both the climate and nature emergencies, and I really look forward to working with local authorities to identify a lot more.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's tree-planting schemes? OQ58043

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

We must plant 43,000 hectares of new woodland by 2030 if we are to meet UK Climate Change Committee's balanced pathway to get us to net zero. We have opened a new woodland creation planning scheme to support land managers in developing plans to plant trees, and new schemes to support the planting of new woodland will be opened later this year.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

It's been six months since you unveiled plans to grant a tree for every household in Wales. In the intervening months, there's been scant detail on this, and I have been inundated with queries from my constituents asking how they can get hold of their trees for planting. So, Deputy Minister, how and when do you plan to inform households on how they can get hold of their trees and how do you plan to maximise the uptake of the scheme?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I think that's rather a daft question, if you don't mind me saying so, because there was plenty of information when we launched the scheme earlier this year. We made very clear that there would be an initial stage. We really wanted to do something in the last financial year, not wait until this financial year, so we had a soft launch where we had a final six different regional hubs open to begin the process, in partnership with the Woodland Trust. But we made clear right from the very beginning—and if the Member takes the trouble to Google this, I'm sure he'll find information—that we would have a fuller launch later this year for the October planting season. We intend to have in the order of 25 different regional hubs where people will be able to come along and collect their free tree.

It is going to be, by definition, a modest but important measure in terms of reaching our target of some 86 million trees. Giving every individual household a tree is an important symbolic gesture to raise people's awareness of the benefits of tree planting, but that's not going to meet our target. We have a comprehensive package of measures to meet that target, and I'm delighted that in the Senedd gallery today are members of the tree deep dive who worked very closely with me, and continue to work closely, on implementing a whole package of measures we identified to break down barriers to meet our target. I think the tree giveaway campaign is a really important initiative, and we'll be seeing more of it in the autumn.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Deputy Minister, just to assist you, you're right: already 5,000 trees have been given away as part of the scheme—5,000 in March; 200,000 are due to be given away in November. However, might I suggest that a rapid review of the terms and conditions to the programme operated by the Woodland Trust is undertaken to ensure that as many trees as possible are distributed this autumn and beyond. Because I have to say that the terms and conditions are rather restrictive and prohibit, for example, third parties collecting trees. That means that, if you have a community where there's a management company, where everybody's agreed to create a community hub, as is the case in one community here in Clwyd South, every single person at the moment would have to drive to one of the regional hubs. So, as part of any sort of review and relaxation, might I suggest that we utilise school estates for the distribution of them, and also, perhaps, not limit households to just one tree either.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for that supplementary. It's certainly not the intention of the scheme to constrain people who want to plant trees. It's my understanding that the terms and conditions don't do that, and I'd be keen to hear more from you about your particular example to see what might have gone wrong there. In fact, we built into the design of the scheme the ability for the Woodland Trust to deliver to people who are unable to get to a hub, and I certainly want to use schools and other community groups to aggregate demand, if they can use schools as mini distribution centres to pass on trees to families. I certainly want to explore that.

We do need look at the logistics of this. It's a very complex scheme, but we have a limited budget for it, so we have to be pragmatic about what can be done. But I certainly want there to be a permissive approach taken so that we can get as many trees in the ground as possible. And I'd really welcome hearing more about the problems your constituents had.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

5. How is the Welsh Government developing a sustainable transport network in North Wales? OQ58037

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Our north Wales metro programme will transform rail, bus and active travel services across north Wales. We've also announced a north Wales transport commission, led by Lord Terry Burns, the former Treasury Permanent Secretary, who's done such good work for us around the M4 in Newport. And that is already beginning. It's meeting, I think, today, for the first time, to develop an evidence-led approach that will then develop a pipeline of recommendations for a stream of multimodal and integrated transport solutions for the north.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Electric vehicle charging points will be key to a sustainable transport network in north Wales. In February I wrote to you in support of a constituent who asked for help in finding out why Transport for Wales, TfW, was taking so long to install the 21 rapid electrical vehicle charging points announced last June. In your reply, you stated that the project referred to is a complex one, there'd been delays experienced in obtaining planning permissions, leases and wayleaves, and Transport for Wales have assured your officials that once they've secured the permissions, the sites will quickly move to the construction phase. How, therefore, do you respond to my constituent's subsequent statement that TfW really need to move this along with priority, as visitors driving electric vehicles will come to north Wales and find it unprepared for EV drivers, who will have disposable income, which our local tourism industry would like to be spent here, and that the Rhug estate announced that it's installing eight high-powered car chargers at Corwen—a few weeks to install eight high-powered chargers, when TfW and Welsh Government can only manage one medium-powered charger in 10 months?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I certainly share the Member's frustration that the scheme has hit some snags. Let me say a couple of things in response to the points he raises. First of all, I think he is a great champion of the private sector and I would've thought that, in this case, it is not for Government to be leading the roll-out of e-charging; the Government doesn't provide petrol stations and I don't think it's reasonable to expect Government to be the primary provider of e-charging facilities—that is a role, primarily, for the private sector. And the role of the public sector is to pump prime and deal with those areas that are going to be less likely to be served by the private sector, firstly.

TfW do have a programme of work and this does prove to be very complex, for the range of reasons that he set out, and there have been delays for a whole range of reasons, not least due to supply chains as well as legal hold-ups, and also, as we were discussing in the Senedd earlier, the constraints of the grid. And this is another problem where the grid that we have is not fit for purpose to deal with the climate change emergency. Now, these are not things that are within the control of the Welsh Government. So, it's a complex patchwork of reasons why there have been frustrations.

I would just say that the figures I've seen show that, per head, Wales has as many charging points as other parts of the UK. We have set out an e-charging action plan, which shows—[Inaudible.]—keep pace on that. But I won't deny that the progress to date on the TfW project hasn't been what I would've liked to have seen, but the number of reasons for that are as I've set out.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Minister, sustainable transport networks have to have at the heart of them the interests of the travelling public. They must get people to where they need and want to be, and that means Welsh Government working with partners to build networks that work for people—and it's partners like our wonderful local government colleagues. And, Llywydd, if I may take this opportunity now to congratulate my friend Keith Jones, who has just been appointed to the esteemed position of transport cabinet member in Cardiff, a highly important job for all local authorities.

Minister, if we look across to my constituency, transport routes have to be cross-border, and that means working with partners cross-border, like the metro mayor, Steve Rotheram. Minister, can I commit you today to committing your officials to working with metro mayor Steve Rotheram's officials to ensure that residents in Alyn and Deeside get to their jobs and places of recreation nearest to their homes on sustainable transport networks?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I can reassure Jack Sargeant that one of the consequences of working with Ken Skates for two and half years is that I absolutely understand the need to work cross-border and to work closely with the metro mayor. I can assure you that that's what we're doing. Good relationships were set up when Ken was in charge of the transport portfolio and they have been sustained, I'm pleased to say. In fact, the north Wales transport commission we've set up under Lord Burns has on it a member from Nottinghamshire council, as well as Ashley Rogers, chair of Growth Track 360, to show that we absolutely understand the east-west nature of transport links, particularly in the north-east, and we continue to make sure that that is central to the planning that TfW is doing.

Jack Sargeant is absolutely right, we need a range of networks and they need to make—. The right thing to do and the easiest thing to do—. At the moment, we have a 70-year legacy of a transport system where we've made it easy to drive and more difficult to use public transport. And unless we turn that on its head and make public transport the easy, obvious, pain-free, cost-effective way to make our daily journeys, we're never going to meet our climate targets. And I hope that the Burns commission will do a practical job of work to set up a pipeline of schemes and create the delivery of relationships in the north and that those can then be achieved at pace.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

6. Will the Minister provide an update on action to improve air quality in Clwyd West? OQ58045

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Tackling polluting transport emissions has been a focus of our clean air programme of work. And, as I mentioned, the north Wales transport commission and the roads review panel are both carrying out work that'll help us with this target in mind.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Clean air is not just about the pollution that we have from road traffic, Deputy Minister, it's also pollution from other places, such as industrial plants. The Glasdir estate in Ruthin has been plagued in recent years with poor air quality as a result of the operation of nearby combined heat and power plants by Newbridge Energy Limited. And, regretfully, just very recently, in recent days, Natural Resources Wales has given a permit to operate a second combined heat and power plant from the same location, doubling, effectively, the emissions that go into the local atmosphere. The residents on that estate want to know what action the Welsh Government is going to take in order to make sure that that decision can be either unpicked or that the effective and efficient operation of those plants is properly monitored by Natural Resources Wales to ensure that they don't have to face continuous problems, which they feel are going to impact their health. Given that this is both a public health matter as well, I would like to know what engagement the Welsh Government has between the departments, and with NRW, to make sure that these sorts of schemes, the cumulative impact is considered, and that these sorts of schemes don't proceed where there are already concerns about pollution.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the question, and I'm aware of the concerns that he's raised previously on behalf of residents in relation to the facility at the Glasdir estate in Ruthin. It was my understanding that NRW did carry out an investigation alongside Denbighshire County Council last September, which did identify a number of minor issues that then resulted in a notice being served on the operator, and those issues were addressed and the notice was complied with. And since then, as I understand it, there's been a significant reduction in complaints regarding the site and Denbighshire County Council is monitoring closely the area to ensure that air quality remains good. Darren Millar mentioned a permit had been issued, and that is the point of the regulator, to issue permits, but also then to monitor the permits to make sure that they are complied with. Now, I think we've seen an example of where that has been done, and I'm sure NRW will continue to do that, and, if there are concerns by local residents, I'd encourage them to raise them with the local authority and with NRW.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage new house building in the Monmouth constituency? OQ58063

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you for the question, Peter Fox. Housing, particularly social housing, is a key priority for this Government. This is reflected in our commitment to deliver 20,000 new low-carbon homes for social rent, and underpinned with record levels of investment. We also provide a range of support for house builders, including schemes specifically for small and medium-sized enterprises across Wales.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Llywydd, I'm sure everybody across the Chamber here knows the importance of having a good quality stock of housing. Without them, the housing stock will come under even more pressure, pricing people out from being able to own their own home, and we've seen that, sadly, all over. However, a number of new developments in my constituency have stalled as a consequence of the current rules around phosphate levels, with developments close to river catchments required to show how the design will not contribute to increased phosphate levels. Of course, I completely agree that new developments should not have an adverse impact on the environment, however, the current rules seem to have caused a real log jam in the building of much-needed new homes. And in fact, there are concerns that these rules will impact on the potential development of a cancer treatment centre in Nevill Hall in Abergavenny. I note that you will be having a summit at the Royal Welsh Show, which will reflect on not only phosphates but flooding also, but, Minister, how is the Welsh Government balancing environmental considerations with the need to build new homes to tackle the housing crisis? How is the Government working with planning authorities and developers to better understand the current rules, as well as unlocking stalled sites? And we also know that farming isn't the only player in this situation—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to come to your question now.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

I'm coming to it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I've been quite generous with you.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Fine. How is the Government working with Welsh Water to upgrade sewage systems in Monmouthshire to ensure that more systems are able to treat phosphates at source and ensuring that new developments can connect to these? Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, thank you, Peter Fox, for that series of questions, and, absolutely, we understand entirely that the phosphate issue is a really serious issue across Wales. It's affecting the delivery of our 20,000 social homes, it's affecting the delivery of a number of market housing that should have gone ahead for local development plan purposes and so on. It's also affecting a number of other developments across Wales. And, absolutely, there are a number of complexities. Each river catchment has a different set of players, who may or may not be contributing to the phosphate levels there. Phosphate is the headline issue, but we also have nitrates and ammonium, all kinds of other stuff that we've got going into our rivers for various reasons across Wales. We have a number of groups looking at the SAC rivers in particular, so, the Wye has a cross-border one, for example, that I know Peter's aware of.

But the reason for the summit at the Royal Welsh, chaired by the First Minister, is to bring the players together, because there's absolutely no doubt that everyone has to compromise here, because we just cannot have a situation where we can't have anything happening, but nor can we have a situation in which our rivers are visibly dying. What use is that to anyone, frankly? We allow the houses to be built, and then the river's an open sewer—that's clearly not acceptable either. So, this is all about reaching the best possible compromise for both the environment, the rivers and their catchments and the way they flow into the sea and affect our kelp and sea grass forests and all the rest of it, which is vital for climate and nature emergency action, but also the real problem that we have with insufficient housing, particularly in the social sector and so on.

There's a large number of pieces of work going on across the piece on this, it's a very, very difficult and complicated problem, and the reason for the summit is to bring those players together in the spirit of, 'How can we, together, reach the best possible compromise to take this forward in Wales?' Because, let there be no mistake, no-one who comes to that summit is going to go away with their agenda fulfilled 100 per cent and everybody else's put to one side. It's about compromise and reaching that best possible solution for everyone so that we can go forward together as a set of communities.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on financial support for tidal energy projects in Wales? OQ58061

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, thank you, Janet. As I advised in my written question response of 18 March 2022, the Welsh Government is developing a marine energy programme. As part of this work, I am considering what funding will be needed in future years to support marine energy projects.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Minister. The UK Government has committed to investing £20 million per year in tidal stream energy—electricity—and the First Minister has informed this Senedd that the Welsh Government is committed to developing a tidal lagoon challenge. However, it seems that tidal range options have been left out at sea. TPGen24 has been designed to operate both in sync with the rise and fall of the tide and, through smart controls, independently of it too. A 24-hour energy generation, a refreshingly simple, turbine-loaded 15 times 7.5 km three lagoon system located at least 1 km offshore, TPGen 24 is a small-impact, low-maintenance and high-yield renewable power plant that can perpetually produce green energy for centuries to come. Clearly, TPGen24 does have some exceptional potential, so will you explain what steps you will take to help to see tidal range projects such as these become a reality here in Wales? As we've said before, it's a cocktail of measures that are needed, and this fits into that cocktail well. Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I'm not one to be putting down any offer of a cocktail, Janet; let's start from there. [Laughter.] Quite clearly, we need a whole range of measures put in place to ensure not only that we develop a range of tidal energies: tidal range, tidal stream, tidal lagoons, all sorts—. We're very pleased to see the UK Government stepping into this space, but we need to see the action following that up as well. I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee this morning on this; we're really pleased that the UK Government is making the right noises and coming towards us, but Lee Waters has just written to the Secretary of State asking him again to set out plans for the UK Government supporting funding for the development of tidal range generation in the UK and, frankly, the grid to support it, the interconnectability to support it and a range of other measures that mean that those small demonstrator projects don't bear the burden of the connection into the grid that they need to take their energy off and that we can properly spread out the load of some of the really quite high-risk things that those projects are asked to look at.

But I can assure you—I know she knows already the Morlais project we've already given the grant to—we are very keen to explore this, particularly the innovative projects that Janet has just enthusiastically outlined, because, obviously, one of the big issues for us is to capture the global manufacturing market as well as the global energy market that goes with that and the jobs that go with it. So, I absolutely agree entirely with you, Janet—I don't say that very often—and we really hope that the Secretary of State will work with us to make sure that we have all of that in place going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, and the first question this afternoon is from Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. How is the Government supporting the work of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol? OQ58054

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

It was an honour to attend the coleg's tenth birthday celebration last week. I'm pleased to be able to commit to providing additional funding to the coleg to increase the proportion of apprenticeships and Welsh-medium further education. This is being done in collaboration with Cefin Campbell, the Plaid Cymru designated Member, as part of the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. In his speech in the Senedd to mark the tenth anniversary of the coleg, Dr Ioan Matthews, the chief executive, referred to the large number of Welsh speakers studying in universities across Wales who still don't make that choice to study part of their degree through the medium of Welsh. It's clear that there's still a challenge in terms of encouraging students to study their subjects through the medium of Welsh, and according to the coleg this is particularly true when it comes to scientific subjects. It appears that one of the main reasons is that the sciences aren't taught through the medium of Welsh in every Welsh-medium school. According to lecturers, once a pupil has changed their language of study to English, it's difficult to convince them to study through the medium of Welsh at university, which, of course, creates a vicious circle in terms of teachers who qualify in the sciences who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh. Does the Minister agree that we need intervention to increase the provision through the medium of Welsh at A-level if we are to increase the number of students who go on to study the sciences through the medium of Welsh at university, and then who are going to train as teachers in secondary schools in the sciences? Will the Minister commit to undertake a survey to find out what the situation is within our Welsh-medium schools in terms of provision in the sciences? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you for the question. We know what the situation is. There is a need to recruit more teachers who can teach science subjects through the medium of Welsh, and we have plans to do so through financial incentives to incentivise people and draw people into the profession to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, the question of continuity that the Member talks about is vital, I think, and, of course, there is a further budget going to the coleg Cymraeg that is going to be able to support that to ensure that that happens also. By now, some 34 out of 35 subject areas in our universities are available through the medium of Welsh and the coleg is doing very innovative work, for example, in veterinary sciences, paramedicine and other areas with a science basis. So, I'm looking forward to the next decade of their work and we're ready to do as much as we can to support their work.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Minister, one of the key areas of work that needs to be addressed in our Welsh language strategies is the provision of Welsh-medium medical training, particularly up in north Wales. The Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol have been doing invaluable work here in south Wales supporting doctoral students and providing subject grants to Cardiff and Swansea. Minister, what discussions have you had with the college about the role they play in delivering Welsh-medium medical training at the north Wales medical school to make it a truly national service? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, we look forward to supporting the coleg Cymraeg in expanding its reach through all parts of the higher education system in Wales, including those to which the Member refers in his question. The resources available to the coleg Cymraeg will be significantly extended as a consequence of the work that we're doing jointly with Plaid Cymru under the co-operation agreement, and it's in many of the areas with medical foundation, if you like, where some of the most innovative work that the coleg has been doing is most evident. So, I mentioned some of them in my answer to Sioned Williams a moment ago.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on the Government's plans to support children and young people with dyslexia in the Arfon constituency? OQ58053

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We are developing the skills of the education workforce and have made additional bilingual resources and guidance available to help practitioners better meet the educational needs of learners with specific learning difficulties, including dyslexia. In addition, the rights are being sought to a new all-age Welsh dyslexia screening test.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

One of my constituents in Arfon has undertaken an independent study after finding failings in the dyslexia provision through the medium of Welsh for her daughter. She has been disappointed by the lack of resources and services available through the medium of Welsh, and, although hopefully in the future there will be a dyslexia test through the medium of Welsh, there is no dyslexia test available for someone to take in their mother tongue at the moment. There's not even a Welsh-medium website that could be a valuable information resource. I do understand that there are experts in Bangor University eager to create Welsh-medium resources. So, what support can you and your Government provide to them, and will you provide us with an update regarding the developments to create a bilingual website to support children and young people with neurodiverse conditions?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, thank you for that question. Certainly we do need to do more to ensure the availability of resources through the medium of Welsh for dyslexia in general. As part of the plan to ensure that the new legislation is implemented in the most effective way, we are working with a steering group and we will be recruiting people with expertise in this area to implement the additional learning needs system through the medium of Welsh, including mapping what we will need to provide. We're working with local authorities in the context of the Welsh in education strategic plans to ensure that we understand what their analysis is of the need for further resources too.

But as I said briefly in my initial response to the question, we are currently seeking the rights to the test for Welsh language dyslexia screening. We already have it through the medium of English, but we need it in Welsh too and those discussions are ongoing.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

The Member for Arfon raised a really important point, because we know that around 10 per cent of our population here in Wales is dyslexic. And I know, personally, that if it is not dealt with or supported properly at a young age, it can cause some difficulties for people later on in life. In addition to this, the signs and symptoms of dyslexia differ from person to person, so it's really important that any plans and support are perhaps done on an individual basis as well as the broader support that can be offered.

So, in light of this, Minister, what assessment have you made of the role of the new curriculum, what role that can play in ensuring that those with dyslexia receive the help and support that they may need as early as possible in order to help them thrive?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the combined effect, I think, of the curriculum reforms and the ALN reforms is—. The focus on literacy will drive improvement in this area, and the training available through the professional learning programme that we've been investing in will specifically equip our teaching workforce to identify dyslexia and support pupils that need additional support. Of course, there is a range of needs within the rubric of dyslexia and some have relatively mild needs, and others have a requirement for more significant intervention. But the ethos of the new curriculum, as well as the ethos of the ALN reforms, are to make sure that that's provided as far as possible in a mainstream setting within the life of the school and in the classroom. And so, I think the combined effect of those two reforms will be a renewed focus on this area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, as you know, in just four years' time, BTECs won't be available for our Welsh learners. Many professionals in colleges I've visited across Wales are getting extremely anxious now that no replacement has been announced. With such a short period of time to go, there has been no clear policy direction from this Welsh Government and, sadly, the response from Qualifications Wales was merely, 'Don't panic.' Minister, our educators need to know the plan and would greatly appreciate it if you could enlighten us today as to what that plan is.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, that's an important question that the Member raises in her question. She's right to say that the UK Government is phasing out a number of qualifications in England, which will have an effect on learners in Wales because they're also studied here in Wales. That is a decision that is being taken without reference to the interests of learners in Wales, by the UK Government. What Qualifications Wales has been able to do is secure the extension of some of those key qualifications so that we have additional protection for learners in Wales, which those over the border will not have, as it happens.

She will also know that it's part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru to undertake a review of vocational qualifications and to see how far we can extend the idea of made-in-Wales qualifications. We have done some of those. There is scope for doing more of those to make sure that learners in Wales don't lose out as a consequence of decisions in Westminster.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, that's not good enough. We need a world-class, high-quality vocational qualification, fit for the next generations, but our educators need time to prepare it and ensure that our students and our learners aren't being failed by the lack of preparation upon introduction. It is quite clear that your own pride and ideological view will mean that we don't follow England with the T-levels, but we aren't being told what the other options are. Minister, will they be made in Wales by our own regulator, like in Scotland, or will this be done through partnership with higher education institutions?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm sorry to give the Member the same answer that I gave earlier, but I'm not sure she entirely followed what I was saying. There is a vocational qualifications review under way that will explore the extent to which made-in-Wales qualifications can be extended beyond the existing level of provision. And in the meantime, there is an extension to those most popular qualifications, to provide additional time for that to happen.

One of the challenges that we've faced throughout this process is that the UK Government has proceeded without regard to the needs of other parts of the UK. So, the best way of doing this, in the interest of learners in all parts of the UK, is to do this in a collaborative way. That has not generally been the experience. And so, the position that we find ourselves in is developing alternatives to protect the interests of Welsh learners, and negotiating extensions to those existing qualifications, which Qualifications Wales has been doing. I meet with them regularly. I discussed this question with a number of further education principals recently. And I think it's very important that there's an ongoing dialogue between QW and the colleges, so that, in the interests of learners, which are paramount in all these discussions, there is clarity and an understanding of what lies ahead.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, once again, there is a distinct lack of leadership from you being shown on such an important issue in education for our children and learners in Wales. You are failing to clarify your position on something that you've known about for a long time. This review could have been done a long time ago. People need time to prepare, our colleges need time to prepare these and know the direction that you're going to take. You've left our colleges without this direction, and, as a result, four further education colleges are developing a partnership to award qualification with the University of Wales Trinity Saint David. Will this be the model that you use for all of Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member, I think, is conflating two separate things. The review that has been announced by the Welsh Government, in conjunction with Plaid Cymru, is around the made-in-Wales qualifications. There's an existing review that Qualifications Wales has already been undertaking and, as I'm sure she knows, has done a risk analysis of the impact on Welsh learners of the withdrawal of qualifications on a UK-wide basis. We know of the work they've already been doing around made-in-Wales qualifications in some key areas—which I'm sure she's across—and also commissioning additional qualifications for those gaps when they have emerged. So, the work is already under way. As she will know, the designation, the responsibility for managing this lies, as it does in all parts of the UK, outside the direct hands of the Government, in the qualifications regulator, which is what we would all wish to see. And the work that I've been telling you about is work that they are doing together with FE colleges. But it's absolutely important to make sure that that dialogue continues, so that learners know what the options are as those qualifications—many of which have been relied on for a long time—are withdrawn by the UK Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, on 11 May, Jayne Bryant and I met with members of NEU Wales for a session that focused on raising awareness of the impact of workload on the mental health and well-being of staff in schools. A recent survey of its members found that 95 per cent of educators are working longer hours than those specified in their contracts, and that 44 per cent of educators are seriously considering leaving the education sector. The survey also found that 79 per cent of respondents feel uncertain whether they have a good work-life balance, and 62 per cent of respondents said that their employers aren’t doing anything to lessen their workloads.

Although some support has been given by the Government to support the health and well-being of staff, the clear message that I received from them was that this wasn’t being felt on the ground, and that the most important thing that the Welsh Government could do would be to help to lessen workloads. Do you have any plans to provide further support for the mental health of teachers and school staff through lessening their workloads, and ensuring that we don't lose more teachers?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

'Yes' is the answer. There are two things ongoing. We have tripled the budget to provide support to teachers who are under pressure. Part of that is online resources, some of it is one-to-one advice, and some of it is training for leaders and headteachers to identify what more could be done in terms of support within schools. The broader budget is going to enable that service to reach more people. The experience on the whole, I would say, is if you've been to a school where you've had experience of that service, it is a positive thing, but it hasn't been available to enough people. So, that's the intention in increasing the budget: to ensure that it is available for more teachers.

But the basic question is: what does that mean in terms of workload and work pressure? We have a forum with the trade unions and local education authorities looking at what we can do to ensure that we strike the right balance between the requirements and the pressure. So, that process is ongoing. The unions are all part of it, and I hope that that will come to fruition soon.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister. It is to be welcomed that you are aware and trying to respond to the demand. One of the challenges raised with us was the time that it takes to care for one's health and well-being, because of the pressures. So, it is a challenge.

One of the things that was emphasised to us was that they are still continuing to cope with COVID and those challenges, the additional support for those pupils who need it, and also preparing of course for the developments that are needed with the additional ALN provision and the new curriculum. Certainly, one of the clear messages that we heard regarding the new curriculum, even though they feel excited about it, was that the challenges in terms of preparing for September are very challenging and places additional pressure on them. So, with the Welsh Government intending to introduce this new curriculum from September onwards, what plans are in the pipeline to specifically support those teachers who perhaps are considering leaving the profession because of the current workload, and to ensure that essential transition between the current curriculum and the new curriculum?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I accept the point that one of the challenges is to have the time to look after yourself. That has been very challenging. You're right also to say that the experience of the last two years isn't at an end, and education practitioners, teachers and assistants are under pressure currently. Certainly, that is true. In terms of the further support, you will have seen the statement that about half of the secondary schools have decided to implement the curriculum in September this year rather than wait until next year, which is to be welcomed, of course. Our ability to increase staffing levels as a result of COVID—about 1,800 additional members of staff in the system—I think, provides some extra support. But, of course, the needs are greater as well as a result of the pressure on students and pupils over the last two years.

Perhaps the Member will have seen that back in February I announced a support scheme for teachers over the following months, from the beginning of the year, to ensure that they felt they were ready for September. Teachers may be on different parts of the path of feeling that they're ready, and I'm sure that many may feel they've lost that additional time to prepare for September. But, a lot of work has been ongoing for a long period of time to ensure that the training and the resources are there. And it's not too late; there is a lot of support available to ensure that every teacher feels confident to teach the new curriculum in September.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

3. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy regarding how the education system could address the skills gap? OQ58041

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We discuss this issue regularly. We have most recently discussed a range of areas linked to the issue of addressing skills gaps, including careers and work-related experiences, the young person's guarantee, and the renew and reform project.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Minister. Firstly, I want to thank you for the entertainment you provided yesterday with you breaking out a beat with the First Minister about your musical programme. I will be asking you a question on that very soon in future. But, for now, Minister, you'll be aware of the concerns that have been expressed by academics about plans to replace physics, chemistry and biology as separate subjects and to replace them with one integrated science award. One academic warned, and I quote, that a 'dumbing down' of science at GCSE level could see Wales

'miss out on some brilliant scientists in the future',

and widen existing skills gap in STEM subjects. Minister, I've spoken to a number of students on various levels and they don't want to have this programme put in front of them. They want to have the option of being able to have one science to study, such as biology, chemistry or physics, whatever their passion is. The Institution of Engineering and Technology has called on the UK Government to address the skills gap in England by embedding engineering and technology skills into primary school education. So, Minister, my question is: what assurance can you provide that changes to the teaching of science do not amount to dumbing down, what do you say to those students who want to specialise in just one science, and will you consider the proposal to embed engineering and technology skills into primary school education? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I can assure you that—I know that you've quoted an academic who feels strongly in support of the perspective that you describe—there are plenty of others who take exactly the opposite view. And she will have known that, yesterday, we had the Institute of Physics and the other comparable bodies for chemistry and biology here in the Senedd, and if you took the time to speak with some of those, you would have heard a lot of support for what is being proposed in relation to the new qualifications. Combining the qualifications provides additional space in order to allow learners to take additional exams, including in some of the STEM subjects that she is advocating that they should be encouraged to take up, and some of those in applied contexts, like engineering, as she mentioned in her question. And combining the sciences also enables connections to be made across the sciences, which is four-square with the ethos of the new curriculum—not simply to be learning, but to be understanding and to be understanding the connections between different parts of what you are learning—and I think that will provide the opportunity of doing that.

In relation to the work that she was mentioning in primary school, I think it's really important that we start the learner's journey very early on, understanding what the range of options might be for learners to study, for engineering or other STEM subjects in later life. There are a number of things that we fund which are specifically targeted at young people of primary school age, including in schools themselves, but also opportunities to go outside the world of the school to experience coding, space technology, and a range of other experiences that begin them on that journey, if you like, of understanding the range of options, broadening their horizons and, hopefully, encouraging many of them to take STEM subjects later on.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

4. What engagement has the Minister had with Bridgend College on plans for campus development? OQ58034

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

My officials in the sustainable communities for learning programme team are actively involved in discussions with Bridgend College about this development, and I am delighted, personally, that the college is proposing to accelerate delivery of a future pipeline project, which could both improve its educational offer and support the regeneration of Bridgend town centre.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, I really welcome that, and the Minister has been a good friend to the college, and has met Simon Pirotte on several occasions recently, and has seen the STEAM Academy development in Pencoed, which, I have to say, is a Wales leader in bringing together engineering technology, the creative arts and others on one campus, and it is an absolutely superb development for those young people—young people and older people of all ages from throughout the Bridgend area. And, I have to say, Sarah Murphy has visited there with me as well, and others have been there. We've very excited about that, but we're also excited, I have to say, about future plans, including within our biggest local town, which is of course Bridgend, and what that could do not just for the young people of Bridgend, but also for urban renewal as well. So, will he commit to working with Simon Pirotte and the fantastic team that he has, and Bridgend County Borough Council, to bring Welsh Government's heft to that as well so that we make sure that we maximise the impact for young people and old people throughout the area, for lifelong learning and skills but also for town-centre regeneration as well?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'll take the opportunity, if I may, to compliment Huw Irranca-Davies and Sarah Murphy on their commitment to the work of the college, the support that you both provide for it, and for the further education offer in your constituencies as well. On both occasions I've been to the college in the last year, you've both been there, and it's been fantastic to see the level of community support for the work of the college.

The programme team in Welsh Government are working closely now with the college to identify what the funding requirements would be, and we're very supportive of the strategic proposal that the college has in this area. I believe it's also a brownfield site that they're looking at, so that's also very positive, for obvious reasons. Why I think it's exciting is, obviously, it strengthens the college's education offer, which we would all support, but also, I think, delivers on that mission that is so important to all FE colleges, which is supporting the local economy, encouraging footfall into the centre of the town, providing that local economic halo, if you like, around its activities, and I think that's also an exciting part of the proposal.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, Bridgend council's website says,

'As well as illustrating the ambitious plans of Bridgend College for expanding and improving the quality and range of learning and training opportunities within the county borough, it also demonstrates how the council's regeneration masterplan is trying to work alongside key partners to deliver significant and long-term positive change for the town centre.'

This is an excellent example of major education providers being seen as an anchor in an economic regeneration scheme, so I'm also excited. However, for this to work, the college and the council need to ensure that those students who live beyond the town centre in some of the surrounding Valleys communities are able to access this via public transport. What discussions has the Minister had with the college, Bridgend council and neighbouring councils about the challenge of public transport to maximise the benefits of the campus expansion, not forgetting active travel?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, I think that's a really important point. Everything I know from having visited the college—and I was delighted to be able to officially open the STEAM Academy, actually, in Pencoed campus—is that the college has a real focus, actually, on making sure it's accessible to its students, obviously, but also to the community that it serves at large. There's a strong sense of mission, I think, in relation to that. So, I would expect that the priorities that Altaf Hussain has indicated in his question very much should be heart and centre of their considerations in relation to this. I think the proposed plan is itself a catalyst for economic regeneration, and I think the impact of that will be most broadly felt if the priorities that he's identified in his question are met, as I'm sure they will be.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

5. How is the Welsh Government addressing shortages in the teaching profession? OQ58052

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We are continuing to work with our initial teacher education partnerships and other stakeholders to ensure that recruitment to programmes of initial teacher education meet the desired levels for the future workforce.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I've been in contact with those working in schools who are concerned about meeting expectations for accountability in terms of Estyn, and delivering the curriculum in Wales while struggling with capacity issues. I know that there's a real concern about the shortages of staff able to teach through the medium of Welsh, especially science teachers, as was mentioned earlier. So may I ask you: what are your long-term plans to improve recruitment and retainment in these specialisms, as well as the immediate support available for schools that are struggling in the short term? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, thank you for that, and I think it's absolutely an important point, as we've heard already today. I hope the Member will be reassured—I'll be publishing a 10-year plan very soon that will set out the steps we plan to take in partnership with a range of other organisations to increase the number of Welsh-medium teachers generally, but specifically as well in the areas that she has identified in her question as being ones of particular pressure. I think we've laid pretty solid foundations over the recent years, including the Iaith Athrawon Yfory incentive, which provides up to £5,000 for students to train to teach secondary subjects through the medium of Welsh, with additional incentives available for those students if they're teaching in areas of particular shortage, like the ones that she mentioned in her question. But also the employment-based schemes and the conversion schemes from primary to secondary I think all add to the capacity of our teaching workforce to teach these crucial subjects in Welsh. I've also invited schools to apply for grants to support capacity building in some parts of the education workforce through Welsh medium in this financial year, and I hope that that will lead to some innovative ways being used in those schools under particular pressure to look at creative ways of meeting the challenges. We've also set our ITE partnerships a target of ensuring that 30 per cent of their intake are Welsh-medium students, and that will be a target that is increased incrementally. So, I hope that provides the Member with some reassurance that, even without the benefit of a new plan, we're taking action, but that there's a new plan that I'll be shortly publishing for consultation, and I look forward to her views on that.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, the latest available figures for initial teacher education, ITE, qualifiers in Wales show that the numbers of students completing their course in Welsh universities or the Open University fell from 1,740 students in 2010-11 to 1,030 in 2019-20, a drop of some 41 per cent. With that decrease over the 10-year period, the pool of talent available to schools to recruit from has shrunk. Therefore, what's gone wrong, and what's being done to put it right?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The most recent figures that I've seen show acceptances for secondary priority subjects, which is the area of key concern, increasing by 8 per cent, and acceptances to train to teach through the medium of Welsh, including Welsh as a language, increasing by 45 per cent. So, that's the reality on the ground. But, actually, the issue is much bigger than the figures for one or two years; it's a strategic need to increase the supply of people coming into the profession able to teach Welsh and through the medium of Welsh, but also to ensure that we have teaching assistants able to do the important work that they do as well through the medium of Welsh. And I think there's a need for great creativity and I think there's a need to do things differently—to look for financial incentives; to make it easier for people to train, to convert from the work that they might already be doing; also to look at letting young people know as they are going through school what the options are for them to teach in Welsh, and marketing, if you like, teaching in Welsh and through Welsh to them as an option. So, I look forward to the Member's comments on the plan when it's published for consultation very shortly.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

6. How is the Welsh Government monitoring the implementation of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018? OQ58056

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We are co-creating an accountability framework to understand the impact of the implementation of the new ALN legislation. This will include assessing the effectiveness of implementation, obviously, but also identifying barriers and also measures to support implementation and exploring the emerging impacts and benefits of the new system.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. The Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, or ALN Act, aims to overhaul the current special educational needs system, placing the child or young person's views at the heart of the process and involving them and their families in the planning, intervention and review process from the outset, with schools themselves having more autonomy over their additional learning needs provision. The ALN code of practice states that local authorities should consider at strategic level whether changes to funding arrangements for supporting children and young people with ALN are appropriate. Although the ALN code's children's rights impact assessment states that children and young people currently recorded as having SEN are twice as likely to be eligible for free school meals as those who do not, there is concern that some local authorities are using free school meals as the sole measure to allocate ALN funding to schools, which could leave ALN pupils in schools with lower free school meal levels deprived of the resources they need to fulfil their potential. How is the Minister therefore ensuring that local authority allocation of ALN funding to schools allows the Act's aims to be implemented?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

[Inaudible.]—point. I think the additional funding that has been made available to local authorities in order to implement the new reforms has, of course, been significantly enhanced and extended in recent months. In January, I announced an additional £18 million, and I announced a further £4 million for special schools specifically at the beginning of March. But, the point he makes is very important—that we need to ensure that funding is invested in a way that enables the Act's requirements to be met, and that should follow need where it exists in schools in our system. So, one of the key aspects of the implementation review that we will be undertaking is to ensure that the emerging processes, as the Act is implemented, are delivering that outcome, but also ensuring that the co-creation I mentioned in my initial answer is really important, because that enables voices in all parts of the system to have a role in the accountability around the delivery of the Act. And I'm very certain that a key part of that work will be answering the question that he has just identified.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to encourage more young people to study STEM subjects? OQ58062

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has provided almost £1.5 million in grant funding this year to support the delivery of science, technology, engineering and mathematics initiatives, with the primary aims of supporting and developing STEM enrichment activities, narrowing the attainment gap and encouraging the take-up of STEM subjects at GCSE and A-level.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I appreciate that answer, Minister. The vast majority of problems facing today's Wales can be addressed by having more scientists, engineers and mathematicians. Mathematicians have devised better surgery scheduling in order to eliminate cancelled operations. We need more doctors, radiographers and lab technicians in order to tackle our horrendous waiting lists, and if we are to address climate change, we need more scientists and engineers working on new battery technology and grid storage. Studying STEM subjects teaches one of life's greatest skills, which is critical thinking, a skill needed above all others in this age of disinformation. Minister, in order to gain the next generation of scientists and engineers, we have to train the next generation of scientists and engineers. How is the Welsh Government working with science outreach projects and science communicators in order to get young people hooked on STEM from a young age?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That's a really good question and a really good point that the Member makes in his question. The £1.5 million in grant funding that I referred to earlier, some of that is—. For example, we've recently invested in Techniquest to explore delivering programmes of work to enhance science and maths in primary and secondary schools, developing that love of science, if you like, at an early age, which I was mentioning to Natasha Asghar a little bit earlier. We fund Engineering Education Scheme Wales, which runs programmes right across Wales to inspire and motivate young people to choose careers in STEM, with a particular focus, as you'd expect with that name, on engineering. We fund computer coding workshops for pupils, we support the further maths support programme with Swansea University, which aims to widen access to further maths, which is obviously critical for some of the STEM disciplines, and we also support the Institute of Physics Stimulating Physics Network programme, amongst other investment. So, I agree wholeheartedly with him that it's really important to encourage our young people who have an aptitude and enthusiasm for STEM subjects to see those as realistic options for them.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I find myself agreeing with Gareth Davies this afternoon in what he says. [Laughter.] Llywydd, last night I had the privilege, as a former engineer myself—I started my career as an apprentice—of speaking alongside the Minister for Economy at the Science and the Senedd event. I spoke about the importance of encouraging young people to take up STEM subjects. Gareth Davies is right; if we are to create the next generation of carbon-neutral products here in Wales, then Wales does need to train its professional engineers and scientists. That simply won't happen, Minister, if we don't get young people engaged in STEM. Can I ask you then, Minister, not only what you're doing in the science industry and the education sector, but how you're working with industry partners and the Minister for Economy to ensure that science is available to everyone, that they can take it up, and that they do realise the world is in their hands when they take up STEM?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Minister for Economy and I work very closely on this area, because it's a cross-cutting theme and we're both passionate about it. It's really important, I think, to take full advantage of the opportunities that the new curriculum will bring, with a real focus on understanding career options from an early age—an earlier age than perhaps most children and young people currently have an opportunity. But it's those transition points as well, from school into further education, from FE into the world of work or into higher education. At each of those stages it's really important to equip our young people with the skills to get work, obviously, but also an understanding of the options available to them, and, crucially, that aspiration to look at the broadest range of options for them in the world of work, both in terms of their local economy—the kinds of initiatives that Huw Irranca-Davies was referring to in his question—but also globally. We are very committed to that as a Government and we do everything we can to make sure our young people have those opportunities.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8—Sarah Murphy.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

8. How is the Welsh Government supporting schools to identify and assess special educational needs in early years settings across Bridgend? OQ58055

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our additional learning needs reforms promote collaborative assessment and planning to facilitate early identification and intervention. Early years ALN lead officers and ALN co-ordinators are helping to ensure that additional learning needs are met, and the child development fund and Flying Start are responding to increased demand for additional developmental support.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you, Minister. It has been great to visit lots of early years settings across my constituency in Bridgend, which I know are pleased to be able to return to pre-COVID routines and activities to benefit the children in their care. For many parents and pupils, schools and early years settings can often be the start of the journey for additional learning needs assessment. As we know, having trained staff and support systems that can identify early signifiers of additional learning needs is key to providing the best support packages for those children to thrive as early as possible. For the last two years, the pandemic has seen periods where children have, unfortunately, not been in school, and this has undoubtedly impacted on the ability of children to be assessed for any additional learning needs. Minister, what is the Welsh Government doing to support schools to be able to catch up on these assessments and ensure that no child falls through the gaps in additional learning needs support due to the pandemic?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you for that supplementary question. We are very aware of the impact that the pandemic has had on the capacity to assess and support the needs of learners with additional learning needs at all parts of their education journey.

Last year, we awarded a £10 million recovery package to local authorities, and the purpose of that was to fund the reintegration, if you like, of pupils with ALN back into the classroom following the pandemic. We have provided grants to local authorities—an implementation grant—to increase the capacity to move children from the SEN system to the ALN system, and to support staff to develop knowledge on how best to do that.

In addition to that, we have committed funding to each local authority in Wales for the next three years to support the provision of online individual development plans, to ensure that the information of pupils with ALN is captured and recorded, so that pupils with ALN are given suitable support.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical questions are next. The first question this afternoon is to be asked by James Evans and is to be answered by the Minister for Economy.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

1. Will the Minister provide a statement on the purchase of Gilestone Farm in Talybont-on-Usk? TQ622

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The Welsh Government undertook the freehold acquisition and short-term leaseback of Gilestone Farm for £4.25 million. The acquisition of the property is being progressed in order to facilitate investment in local businesses, the community and the Welsh economy.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you for your statement, Minister. Over the last week, I have been inundated with phone calls, e-mails and social media comments around the Welsh Labour Government's decision to buy Gilestone Farm in Talybont-on-Usk. I, and many of my constituents, have some very valid questions over the purchase and letting of the farm to the owners of the Green Man Festival. They have some varied points that they would like to put to you, and I am going to do that now.

Minister, you have told us what the purchase price was. So, I'd like to know: was that subject to an independent evaluation by a district valuer? What tendering exercise was carried out to find a suitable tenant for the farm? Was anybody local offered the opportunity to apply for it, and if not, why not? What is the long-term ambition for the farm, given the current food security issues that we have, and why has a productive farm been taken out of use?

What economic exercise was done by the Welsh Labour Government to ensure that the 174 jobs that have been quoted can be realised when farms in my constituency can hardly employ a single person? Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, is it now the Welsh Labour Government's policy to use taxpayer money to purchase farms and rent them out to private businesses and individuals to deliver on its biodiversity and climate change projects?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There were a range of questions in there. I will try to deal with them as best I can, and as succinctly as I can—I'm looking at the Deputy Presiding Officer. The purchase price was independently certified by our consultant surveyors. You'll be pleased to know that we did not pay above the market value for it. When it comes back to where we are now, it has been leased back to the current owners. They have a range of issues to do to maintain the property, to harvest existing crops and to honour existing bookings on the site.

We are in discussion with the owners of the Green Man Festival about their potential leasing of the site, to give a greater level of certainty for them to invest in the festival, which, as the Member will know, is supported across a range of different sectors. It is one of five major independent festivals that still exist across the UK, with significant economic benefit to Wales, and they have plans and ambitions to be able to expand. We will need to see from them a business plan before going ahead with any further arrangement. We would then be looking at whether to have a short-term lease to manage the entire property for a period of time. But we do need to have further negotiations with them, either to look at the purchase or a further lease arrangement for the site.

The overall ambition is to make sure that one of the most significant economic undertakings in the festival scene, which has a particular group of people who are interested in it for the way that it's run and the values that underpin it as well, has a permanent home in Wales, because there has been significant interest from other festival providers who want to purchase the brand. We're very keen to keep that in Wales, with the significant economic benefit that has already been generated and will be in the future. I'll be more than happy, as those negotiations continue, to further update the Member and indeed other Members who will no doubt have an interest.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, thank you for the answers you've given this afternoon. I think it clarifies that the purchase of Gilestone Farm is more a case of securing an exhibition/festival space rather than an agricultural space. If you could confirm that to be the case, as that was my understanding from the answer you gave. If it was to include an agricultural component to it, are you minded to give significant funding, like you've done with this particular purchase, to other areas in Wales that could release opportunities for agriculture and for new entrants into the business? Obviously, there has been a growing problem in accessing the agricultural industry for new entrants, and to hear that £4.25 million has been spent on one farm in one particular location, I think, would be quite depressing for some farmers, when their own family members are struggling to get their foot on the ladder. So, can you just confirm for me that this is an exhibition space you've secured rather than—[Interruption.] The Royal Welsh was purchased by members of the show, not by Government, I'd point out.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

As I say, the purchase price has been independently certified for us, and we're looking at the opportunity that does exist around the long-term future for Green Man. As ever, there are competing interests about land use and about economic benefit. I expect to see in the business plan how the whole estate would potentially be managed. It would be wrong for me to try to set out a land use policy for the entire estate when that's what we're looking to see delivered. We have, as I say, in the agreement that we already have, the leaseback to ensure that the crops that are already growing are harvested and that current bookings are honoured. As I say, I will further update the Chamber and Members as we receive a business plan from the people who own and run Green Man. I think it's important to maintain the independence of that festival and its link to Wales, which does in itself provide significant economic benefit. I'll then be able to provide more detail on answers about the whole land use that exists. I should also say that Powys County Council are supportive of the proposal and what it will allow us to do on that site.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you to James Evans for bringing this important question before us. What we've got here in Gilestone Farm is good agricultural land, and the danger is that we're going to see good agricultural land once again being lost for other commercial purposes. We know that the Welsh Government doesn't have a good record when it comes to buying agricultural land, because we've seen agricultural land being bought by the Government and being turned into forests. So, what assurances can you provide us today for the long term that this land and this farm will be retained and kept for agricultural purposes, namely producing food?

Also, a number of local farmers have got in touch with my office to complain that they haven't had any opportunity to be part of this process to tender for the farm, for the land, and to be tenants. What consultation did you undertake locally in order to ensure that the new tenants would be the best ones for this land, and why were other local farmers not given the opportunity to be tenants on the farm?

And finally, it's good to see that Welsh Government is providing funding for agriculture. Unfortunately, we've seen local authorities having to sell farms over the years. Are we now able to look forward to Welsh Government giving more money to local authorities to rebuy these farms so that there are opportunities for young farmers to return into agriculture again?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

With respect, I think we're confusing more than one issue in the series of questions that are being asked. I won't go into the historic matters that the Member invites me to relitigate today. The issue is about the vendors and their desire and willingness to sell, where the festival has currently been based, our ability to keep the festival in Wales with all the significant economic benefit that is returned, including, of course, significant economic benefit within rural Wales, and how we then make sure that this particular event, with a particular importance, isn't taken away and the brand used for an entirely different commercial purpose with all the jobs and the wider benefit disappearing to a different part of Wales. As I've indicated, we expect to receive a business plan. We'll then look at that business plan for the entire land use, but then also about whether this would be an issue where there'd be a longer term lease or purchase. So, when it comes to the amount we've invested in this area, it is about securing the longer term future for Green Man in Wales, and I believe we've made the right choice in doing so, but I will, as I say, happily update Members about the longer term question that Members have raised today about the entire land use for the estate that has been sold by the vendors.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's (HIW) decision that Ysbyty Glan Clwyd's emergency department has been identified as requiring significant improvement? TQ624

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. This is a disappointing report, and the failings in care that have been noted are unacceptable. The health board has confirmed to us that stringent arrangements are in place. We expect the health board to work with Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to accelerate improvements, and we will continue to provide support in order to enable change.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, how many times have I heard that answer before, Minister? Another scandal, another damning report, another urgent question in the Senedd, and another poor response, I'm afraid, by the Government. We're going around in circles here, aren't we? We are going around in circles. How many times do we have to listen to you promising that things will improve, whilst bodies such as HIW and community health councils and others are telling us a very different story? When will you accept that words like this aren't enough, and that the time has come to consider structural changes to how health services are provided in north Wales?

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Patients in north Wales have been promised improvements for years on end, and they just never seem to materialise. You tried special measures, and it failed; you tried all sorts of heightened interventions and they're clearly not delivering. Just a few weeks ago, we were here discussing the serious failings of vascular services in north Wales and the risk that was posing to patient safety. Before that, of course, it was the continued failures in mental health services in north Wales, and the way patients were coming to harm despite warnings from reports published years previously. And today, now, it's Healthcare Inspectorate Wales warning that the emergency department in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd is the worst it has ever seen, and that that, of course, has serious consequences for patient safety.

So, do you not agree, Minister, that the time has now come for the Welsh Government to start a wider conversation around reforming health services in the north of Wales? They say, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' Well, do you know what? It is broke and it needs fixing. So, will you finally accept that this time, it's time up for Betsi?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm absolutely clear that this is not acceptable. The situation is—

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

We've heard this before.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

If you let me finish—it's not acceptable. As soon as I heard there was an issue, I went to spend the whole day in the hospital just to see for myself what was going on and to see the pressures they were under. And I can tell you that I met some staff who had to stop because they were, frankly, in tears because of the pressure they were under. Of course we need to stand by those staff and we need to help them, and the health board now has assured us that they will strengthen operational and executive oversight over Glan Clwyd Hospital's emergency department. If your answer is to restructure at a time when people are waiting for operations, and you want the whole health board to be thrown up in a tizz at this point in time, when, frankly, I want to get on with the job of healing people—

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, it's not working. [Inaudible.]—is not working. [Inaudible.]—10 years. [Inaudible.]

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Let—. I will—

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

If you think that restructuring is going to be the answer at this point in time—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister—. I think it's important we let the Minister answer without interruptions, please.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Restructuring at this point in time is not the answer. We will have a tripartite meeting in June and that will provide recommendations to me on the appropriate level of escalation. I have asked to make sure that my officials are ready for any eventuality that comes from that tripartite meeting, and we have different methods now of making sure that we can support and intervene in the most practical way possible to give the support that they need. Now, your answer is always to run down the service and the people—[Interruption.]—and the people working in that service who are on their knees, who are in tears. And, of course, we've got a duty and responsibility to serve the people of that community. If you think that restructuring at this point in time is the answer, I'm afraid I think you're mistaken. That is not what I'll be doing. I am not going to be restructuring in the middle of a pandemic. That is not the way to go about change. We are putting pressure on the health service in the area, we are meeting frequently with the NHS in the area, and we will continue to make sure that we are responding in a productive and in a progressive way, which is constructive. And, of course, this kind of situation is unacceptable, but we will stand by them to make sure that they make improvements.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Minister, we are fed up, frankly, in north Wales, of you telling us that we cannot shine a light on the terrible things that are happening in our health service in north Wales. The report today was not just disappointing, it was, frankly, alarming. It might not be alarming for you, but it's alarming for those people in my constituency who that emergency department serves. People in my constituency depend on that emergency department, and when they read that there are problems in it because of insufficient beds, insufficient staff, poor or non-existent record keeping, patient safety being put at risk time and time again, vulnerable patients who should be seen in 10 minutes who don't get access to a consultant or a specialist for six hours, mental health patients who are suicidal being put in parts of a waiting area where they can't be seen or monitored and sometimes disappearing without the knowledge of anybody in the hospital that they've actually left—. This is a health board that has been in targeted intervention or special measures for its mental health services for over six years. The list goes on and on and on. And if you care to read the report, you'll see that there are echoes of nearly every report that has been brought to the attention of this Senedd while I've be a Senedd Member, well over a decade, as has already been said. And, frankly, I'm sorry to say that it came as no surprise to me, this report, because week in, week out, we get patients, we get their family members and loved ones, in our surgeries, e-mailing us and on the phone telling us that there are problems in these departments. We raise them with the health board and we get this sort of flannel, frankly, that you've just given us today—that they've paid attention to these things, that things are improving, that they've produced a wonderful plan that is on a shelf to be implemented.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The Member now needs to ask his question, please.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

And this is just two months after another report on the vascular services. You know, there are just two services in Wales that have been described as services requiring significant improvement by HIW. Both of them are in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board—nowhere else, just the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. This health board needs to improve, Minister. I don't know, frankly, whether a structural change is appropriate. I'm not yet persuaded that that is going to be the case—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Darren—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm happy to have that conversation.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Darren, you need to ask the question. I know you're passionate, but you need to ask a question.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm going to ask a question, and if you please allow me to ask it, I will. But the fundamental problem that staff tell me that there is in that hospital is that there are not enough in-patient beds, there are not enough members of staff. What are you going to do to make sure that the balance of in-patient beds is right for that local population in Conwy and Denbighshire that rely on that hospital? Because, demographically, it is the oldest population in Wales, and yet there are fewer beds for the number of residents who are served by that hospital than in any other part of the country. And do you accept—do you accept—that the decision that was taken by your predecessor, who's sat right next to you in the Chamber and has been smirking during this question—

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have not been smirking.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

You have been smirking during this question. Do you accept that the decision—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I—? [Interruption.] Wait. Hang on a second, everyone, please. [Interruption.] Darren, wait a second. We need to be careful of the language being used in this Chamber on all sides, please. So, let's make sure the questions are focused on the issue that has been raised today, and let's keep to those questions on the issue.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

The question is on the issue. Do you accept that the person who is sat next to you, your predecessor, took the wrong decision when he decided to remove this health board from special measures in advance of the last Senedd election? That was the wrong decision, Minister, and you need to sort it out.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm going to try and calm things down here a little bit, and let's try and get a little bit more constructive. Now, HIW have said exactly what needs to be done in this situation. They've said—they've listed what needs to be done. The response wasn't what it should have been when they went back in; now there has a been response from the health board. So, let me tell you what they are planning to do. They are planning to strengthen operational and executive oversight of Glan Clwyd Hospital's emergency department; they are planning to put more senior leadership input and spot checks in there—that was certainly something that I felt needed to be done on my visit; they are going to be having two-hourly safety meetings so that approaches are strengthened within the emergency quadrant, along with that senior increased visibility; training is going to be increased across a number of areas. You can imagine that training during the pandemic had to be paused because there was so much going on—that training is going to be reinstated. Vulnerable patients will be identified and discussed at the two-hourly safety meetings, and discharge planning will commence on arrival.

And beds, frankly, are not always the answer—that's certainly not what HIW is saying, and I would rather listen to HIW, who are the experts. And let's be clear that, actually, putting people in beds is not the answer. Our proposal and our policy approach is to get people home from hospital as soon as possible. There's going to be a new digital patient tracking system that is going to streamline patient journeys with increased training for staff to use it. So, there are measures in place. They've been very clear about how they intend to respond to this and we, of course, will be looking at this in the tripartite meeting in June.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Minister, we already knew, as local Members, that, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd is not a good-performing emergency department in Wales. I'm just sad, myself, to read the report and learn that it is now the worst-performing emergency department in Wales. In March 2022 only 44.1 per cent of patients were seen within the four-hour target; 62.4 per cent within the eight-hour target; and 1,351 people spent more than half a day, 12 hours, in A&E. Now, our casework does highlight the critical situation at Glan Clwyd, but the HIW report gives us just a glimpse of how bad things really are there. And I do acknowledge that you acknowledge it, and I thank my colleague Llyr Gruffydd, because if you hadn't had raised this as a topical question, I was hoping to raise it as some kind of urgent question.

The comments by Darren Millar I stand by 100 per cent. It is heartbreaking to be a Member when people contact us on a daily basis with things that are going wrong in this health board. And we're not out to put undue criticism on this health board. We've got fantastic staff there working their socks off, but they themselves are becoming very stressed. You're going to lose members of staff, not because of what we say here, but because of the conditions and pressures that they're working under. And, Minister, how do you think I feel when I read this? That the generic environment, clinical room, resuscitation equipment, oxygen suction equipment, manual handling equipment are dirty; that the utility and ward kitchen was found to be dusty or soiled; that patients who require a trolley in the major areas, if available—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We need the question now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes, I'll come to it now.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

You've allowed others, allow me, please.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Ask the question now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

They're routinely accommodated in the waiting room; that high-risk patients aren't subject to any consistent or ongoing checks. That could be any one of our relatives or the relatives of our constituents. Compliance with—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I've turned the microphones off, because I've asked several Members to keep their questions—. You are limited in question time, you know that, and therefore you have gone beyond the time already allocated. Please keep to the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Okay, I will do. Thank you, Deputy Llywydd.

Minister, when the health board was placed in special measures in 2015, improvements were required in leadership and governance. The HIW report highlighted serious concerns. So, is it the case that, seven years on, these special measure objectives still haven't been fulfilled? That was question 1. And a final question, Deputy Llywydd: Minister, you know well my view on emergency departments in north Wales—in view of the failing of this particular hospital, will you look now to Llandudno General Hospital, and at putting some measures in place there that at least would take pressures off Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and hopefully bring about some safer outcomes for our constituents? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Well, of course, Glan Clwyd, along with other accident and emergency departments, are seeing a massive increase in demand, some of which has come as a result of people not presenting themselves during the pandemic and now coming forward. But the situation in Glan Clwyd is worse than in other hospitals, which is why we do need to make sure we shine a light on Glan Clwyd—and nobody's saying that you shouldn't shine a light; my God, if you don't shine a light, I can tell you I'll be shining a light on it. So, it is important that we understand that that leadership and governance, which was part of special measures but is now part of targeted intervention, which is something we are still monitoring, and needs to be improved, which is why we'll be revisiting this when we have a response and the recommendation from the tripartite meeting in June—we'll see what they've got to say in terms of that. I think it's important that people understand that an enhanced hospital management team and an executive presence will be at the A&E department, and there will be an increased use of spot checks in terms of record keeping. It is utterly unacceptable for a situation to be described as 'dirty' in a hospital, especially in the climate in which we are living. It's not a pretty report, and it is clearly something that we need to make sure that they understand the seriousness of what is happening here.

What I can tell you is that Llandudno is already being used as a place where people go to be discharged. So, that is already being used, and I've been to visit—[Interruption.] I've been to visit it, and it is being—. It's quite successful in terms of taking some of the pressure off. And, obviously, if that needs to be continued for a longer term, I'm sure that the health board will consider that. But I do accept that the situation in Glan Clwyd is really in a very difficult situation, and we will certainly be making sure that the health board understand that there is a real urgency now to improve the situation.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

I myself read the HIW quality check report this morning, and what it contained was shocking—truly shocking. And I am deeply concerned for the safety of my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd, and I'm also concerned for my constituents working on the front line in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Both patients and staff have been badly let down by the hospital and the health board's leadership over the last few years. The fact that this report highlighted the need for significant cultural change in order to make the department a safe and effective environment for patients and staff is extremely worrying, as is the fact that learning from incidents is not routinely shared across Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Minister, do you believe that the local health board is fit for purpose? And my colleague Darren Millar asked you the question, and I believe you didn't answer the question, so I'll ask you again: do you regret your Government's decision to take the health board out of special measures before the Senedd elections last year? And do you have any plans to review services across the region in order to ensure a safe environment for patients and staff?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Well, certainly we have seen massive pressure in Glan Clwyd, and it's one of the reasons why, as soon as I saw the first report, I made a beeline for the hospital and spent the day in the hospital, not just a quick visit, but I actually spent time with people on the front line in ED, just watching the kind of pressure they were under, and I can tell you that the pressure was intense. I also met with the trade unions, who talked me through how staff are coping. These are difficult times and difficult situations, but it's clear that Glan Clwyd and Betsi are not coping as well as some other health boards in Wales. And of course, therefore, we do need to look at that, and that's why the tripartite meeting will give us some indication of whether we need to escalate the situation.

I think that my predecessor did the right thing in actually looking at the way that Betsi was running and making sure that he did downgrade them from the intervention that they were on. But, since then, we've had a new chief executive, we've got I think a chair who is active and very engaged with the workforce and is absolutely determined to change the situation. And I think it's really important that we get the balance right here between making sure that we see massive improvements in Betsi, particularly in ED and vascular, but that we also make sure we stand by the staff, who have been under incredible pressure over a very long time.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you. I wasn't going to speak on this, but I will now, so hopefully what I say is okay. I often get asked do I think that the health board is too big. And my commonsense thought about it, gut reaction, would be, 'Yes, it is.' It's a huge region—[Interruption.] Common sense. But I like to ask people, so I asked health professionals, I asked people in social services, what did they really think, you know, do we need to do something now. And they said it would be a costly distraction to do something now, reorganisation is really expensive, and there are immediate things that need to be attended to right now. There are many services that are excellent in Betsi Cadwaladr health board, and I'm so glad that my daughter, who lives just across the border, was able to have her child in Wrexham, because, just across the border in Shropshire, it's really, really bad, the maternity health services there. So, there are really good departments, and I don't want to knock them, but there are some that need investment.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

But you need to ask your question as well, please.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Sorry. Sorry, I did say I wasn't going to—. So, I know that the Royal Alexandra Hospital were hoping to have investment in that, to help take the pressure off minor injuries—[Interruption.] Minor injuries. But I know there is an issue because of a reduction in capital funding from the UK Government by 11 per cent—[Interruption.] No, I'm talking, I'm asking a question.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Wait a minute. Please, just ask your question, because we are moving on, the time is going on.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Yes. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Please ask the question.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

So, I'm asking the Minister if that lack of capital funding, from UK Government to Welsh Government, does have an implication on us being able to build extra services to take the pressure off certain hospitals. Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Well, I would agree with you, Carolyn, that I think that to think about reorganisation in the middle of the pandemic, when we have the longest waiting lists in history, would be a distraction. I think it's really important that we focus on what matters to people, and what they want is to be treated well and to make sure that they get seen in a very timely manner. I think also it's really important that we talk up where Betsi's doing well. They've got the best cancer rates, for example, in Wales.

I think it's important also to recognise that you're absolutely right that, due to the restriction on our capital funding, it is difficult therefore for us to put the investment in that we would have liked. Look, I think it's really important—[Interruption.] I think it's really important that we understand that, as a Government, we are committed to improving the situation in Glan Clwyd, but also more generally across Wales, where, frankly, all of our accident and emergency departments are under intense pressure. They have never seen demand like this before. I've had meetings today with the ambulance service, just to make sure that we understand the kind of pressure that they're under, and I can tell you that they are seeing a month-upon-month increase in terms of the numbers of people calling on their services.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Diolch, Weinidog. Before I move on, can I just remind Members, please, that, when we have a passionate issue such as this—and it does create passion and emotion amongst Members, because you represent your constituents—please respect the Chair when the Chair requests that questions be asked and no long speeches. It is important that we get to the questions so that Members can ask them and the Ministers can answer them. Please keep your focus on that.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The final question today will be answered by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. I call on Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of any implications for Wales of the recent announcement by the UK Foreign Secretary regarding the intention to legislate to change the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol? TQ626

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for the question. We need more detail about these proposals in order to assess their impact. We have a direct interest in anything that affects the way in which goods flow between Great Britain and the island of Ireland, and UK Ministers need urgently to engage with us on their proposals.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Counsel General, the announcement by the UK Foreign Secretary raises clear concerns on the flow of goods between Great Britain and the island of Ireland for our west-facing ports, particularly for Holyhead, and for Welsh businesses more widely. And we ignore at our peril the paramount importance of safeguarding and protecting the Good Friday agreement. We note the will of the UK Government to unilaterally rewrite the Northern Ireland protocol. It's a binding international agreement, which they negotiated themselves, they agreed themselves, they sold to the UK Parliament and to the British public as part of the great oven-ready deal, and they also guaranteed no checks between Northern Ireland and the UK at the same time. And of course the undoing of the protocol undermines the reputation of the UK as a trusted international partner. So, Counsel General, was the Welsh Government party to any discussions on the UK Government's announcement to rewrite the Northern Ireland protocol? And, bearing in mind the importance of this directly for Wales as well as for the UK as a whole, has the UK Government agreed with the request from the First Minister to discuss this urgently at a meeting of the inter-ministerial group on UK-EU relations?

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that supplementary question, and, of course, you do raise some significant issues in respect of potential breaches of international law, and those must not be underestimated. The First Minister wrote to the Prime Minister on Monday 16 May to express his concerns about the proposals to introduce legislation to introduce parts of the protocol. The Minister for Economy had a call with James Cleverly on Monday evening, at which Minister Cleverly provided some information about the statement, but there has been no other substantive discussion. We recognise that the protocol is complex and a sensitive matter, and that is why it is only through dialogue, not through unilateral action, that a mutually agreeable solution can be found.

I think it is also—and it comes out of the supplementary question—essential that the current position is discussed with devolved Governments in relation to Wales specifically. We do have a direct interest in anything that affects the way in which goods flow between Great Britain and the island of Ireland and on matters that might affect Welsh businesses more widely. In particular, we do need to understand what their proposals will mean for imports from the island of Ireland for which we are developing the infrastructure necessary for SPS checks. So, for that reason, the First Minister called in his letter for further ministerial discussions, potentially at a meeting of the inter-ministerial group on UK-EU relations. We've not had a response to that yet. The last thing we really need is for the current cost-of-living crisis, on which the economic impacts of Brexit are already having an impact, to be further exacerbated by a trade dispute between the UK and its most important trading partner.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I think it is important that there's further dialogue between the EU and the UK, and I think it's also very important that the UK Government engages with devolved Governments where there are impacts on people, particularly here in Wales, obviously. No-one wants to see unilateral action. The UK Government has made it clear that it didn't want to be in a position where it had to introduce potential changes to the agreement on just the one side, but it is important that there are pragmatic solutions. I think the Bill that was produced and the proposals that have been put forward by the UK Government yesterday were pragmatic. They were not talking about ripping up an international agreement at all; there were minor changes proposed in order to address some of the significant concerns that have been raised across Northern Ireland, particularly by the business community. Do you accept, Counsel General, that, whilst this matter isn't devolved, the engagement that has to take place with the Welsh Government can only be limited because of course the agreement is between the UK Government and the European Union? And do you accept that the European Union also needs to move and attempt to compromise if we're going to reach an agreement—[Interruption.]—if we're going to reach an agreement that secures the peace in Northern Ireland and upholds the principles of the Good Friday agreement?

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that question. It is certainly the case that dialogue's important, and I think it's important that you recognise the importance of dialogue with devolved Governments. I don't think it is a minor matter. It is a matter that could involve devolved Governments right from day one, because there are significant economic interests. I think the previous Member, Huw Irranca-Davies, referred to the significant economic impacts for Welsh ports. I think you underestimate the implications of what the Government is proposing, that, within a couple of weeks, it is going to introduce legislation. I think we also do need to be clear about the mess the UK Government has got itself into, through what really is a failure of statesmanship and diplomacy.

Let's be clear: it signed up to an agreement that is legally binding in international law. It is the Prime Minister's agreement. Now, one proposal he put forward was that we should use article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol. That is only an emergency measure that can be used for temporary scope. It also opens the door too for the EU to use counter-measures. Effectively, the approach the UK Government's adopted is one that opens the door, effectively, to a trade war. There is potentially an independent arbitration process, but the Government hasn't made mention of that. Of course, what the UK Government is doing is opening itself to legal challenge in the Court of Justice of the European Union.

One thing that's very clear is this: however the UK Government wants to go about it, if it legislates, it is still required to comply with article 4 and article 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which has primacy. So, even if it introduces its own domestic legislation, it cannot get out of its international obligations. Whatever the UK does at domestic law level, it cannot revoke those international law obligations, so it is in grave danger of destroying its international reputation, its credibility in international law, and we really should be a country that keeps our word, otherwise why would any country ever seek to do business with the UK if it cannot be trusted?

I think two other points that do need to be made in response to your question are, firstly, what is happening: the approach adopted is, firstly, destabilising the political situation in Northern Ireland, and we must not underestimate that, but it also risks some very significant material damage to the British and to the Welsh economies. So, I do hope the UK Government will seriously reconsider its position, that it will engage in dialogue, but, above all, that it will engage with the devolved Governments over issues that have a direct impact on our economic well-being.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Two weeks before the Brexit referendum, Sir John Major predicted that if Brexit happened, the peace process jigsaw would be thrown up in the air and nobody would have a single idea where all the pieces would land. But one man did have the answer, and not any answer, he had an oven-ready answer in 2019, and his Government signed, sealed and delivered that answer through the Northern Ireland protocol. He wants now to backtrack on that international binding agreement, and he's been warned by the US President, by the Irish Taoiseach not to do that. Isn't this the irony here, that the ultra Brexiteers who are so obsessed about Britain's standing in the world, Britain being great again in the world, are doing exactly the opposite? They are undermining Britain's status in the world—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can you ask your question now, please?

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Does the Counsel General agree with me, let's all be honest, that the United Kingdom Government has no answers on how to solve the Northern Ireland border question, they have no answers on how to solve the constitutional issues facing the United Kingdom at the moment, and, in fact, their own actions are fast accelerating the end of their precious union?

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

The Member makes his point very well. I have two particular concerns. The first one is the undermining of international law, and that is something that any law officer should be concerned with, and I would hope that the other law officers across the UK Governments share those concerns that we have. The other point he makes, of course, is in terms of the destabilising impact. You referred to the US Government and the implications of undermining the Good Friday agreement that this whole process has, but above all it is a gross failure of diplomacy and statesmanship on behalf of the UK Government that's got it to the position it's in. Sabre rattling with the threat of legislation that breaches international law will solve nothing, and I really do hope the UK Government will reconsider. But I also do make, again, this fundamental point that bypassing or not properly engaging with those Governments in the UK that also have significant concerns about the economic impact shows contempt for those Governments. I hope it will reconsider its position and that there will be engagement from the UK Government with the Welsh Government in the very near future.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. We've already seen, of course, some of the damage from the oven-ready Brexit, or the half-baked idea, as I prefer to call it, on the ports in Wales, because they're bypassing our ports already. So, we've already seen that. It is, of course, Prime Minister Johnson who came up with this grand plan—which is not so grand, apparently, according to him now. So, I want to ask you, Counsel General, beyond the harm that tearing up this agreement will cause to the international standing of Wales and also the UK in the wider world, will you be having discussions with your counterparts in the devolved nations to urge the Prime Minister to reconsider what is going to be the most damaging international situation in terms of trade and trust that he is about to put upon the UK?

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Well, thank you for that question. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Minister for Economy and the First Minister will utilise every opportunity that there is to ensure that those international interests and UK interests, but in particular the Welsh interests, are at the forefront of any discussions and will use every opportunity to try and bring reason to this situation.

You mentioned the economic impact, and, of course, at a time when there is a cost-of-living crisis, perhaps I could just refer to what the director of the Confederation of British Industry in Northern Ireland has said. If the UK Government doesn't listen to the devolved Governments, then maybe it will listen to the CBI, the voice of business in Northern Ireland, who said that

'Politicians everywhere should be focused on helping the most vulnerable in society amid the worst cost of living crisis in decades.

'With firms already reeling from the rising cost of doing business, the last thing they want is further uncertainty in trading arrangements amid global supply chain challenges.'

I think that statement speaks for itself.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Counsel General.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first comes from Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today is International Museum Day. First celebrated in 1977, last year over 37,000 museums in over 150 countries took part. The day aims to raise awareness of museums as arenas for cultural exchange, where we enrich our understanding of ourselves and others. This year's theme, the power of museums, taps into this transformative potential. It explores how museums benefit their communities by disseminating ideas around sustainability and the social economy; innovating and improving digitalisation to expand access; and, community building through a democratic, social fabric that provides lifelong learning opportunities. Truly, museums can be powerful tools of social change.

National museums in Wales remain free to enter. This is really important, ensuring that all can engage with our shared heritage. Pre pandemic, 1.8 million visits were made annually under this scheme. Today's announcement from the Deputy Minister for culture shows Welsh Government's continued commitment to invest in our museums. I welcome the pledges in the programme for government to support museums and also to ensure that other stories, such as the experiences of BAME people in Wales, are told.

To close, I want to mention Cynon Valley Museum. This is a real gem, well worth a visit at its site in front of the remains of the historic Gadlys ironwork furnaces. Thanks to the staff and volunteers at the museum for their work, not just on International Museum Day, but all year round.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

This week is Dementia Action Week. I wanted to put on record my thanks to those communities and services for the work they do to support individuals and families living with dementia, particularly those in my own region of Mid and West Wales. We have Brecon dementia-friendly family community, who won an award for their work in 2016; Llanelli market was the first dementia-friendly market in Wales; the Alzheimer's Society runs services in Pembrokeshire; Age Cymru Dyfed's support services; Dementia Matters in Powys; and, Crickhowell, a dementia-friendly town. There are so many of them around not just my region, but many others as well. The theme of this year's campaign is early diagnosis. Only 53 per cent of people living with dementia in Wales have a diagnosis, meaning that many go without the support they need to live with dignity.

I have my own personal experiences. My dad had Alzheimer's and my mum had dementia. Once they had been diagnosed, of course we got the services they needed, but before that we struggled as a family, particularly with the shame and stigma. So, I want to take the opportunity to ask the Senedd to put on record our thanks to all the volunteers, carers, and services that raised awareness of dementia to aid early diagnosis and improve the quality of life for those people affected by dementia. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

This week is Wales Tourism Week, and Wales Tourism Week 2022 is an opportunity for businesses and communities across Wales to raise awareness of the sector and showcase the quality of Wales's tourism offer to both UK and international tourists. Visitors spend over £6 billion a year, and tourism in Wales is responsible for the employment of nearly 10 per cent of the Welsh workforce. And to mark Wales Tourism Week 2022, the Wales Tourism Alliance theme supports the tourism and hospitality skills and recruitment campaign, 'the Experience makers'. And in partnership with the industry-led Wales tourism and skills partnership, in 2021 Visit Wales launched 'the Experience makers', which is a skills and recruitment campaign to support the sector by raising awareness of the high numbers of vacancies and of the variety of career opportunities available. The campaign targets young people, school leavers, students, those unsure about their future career, or young adults who might be looking for flexible working around, for example, childcare, and other older adults looking for part-time work or even a career change. The message of the campaign this year is to join the experience makers. So, wherever your tourism business is in Wales, I know that this Senedd will want to thank you for all of your continued efforts in showcasing Wales on a local, national and international level.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, everyone.

5. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report: Report on the Welsh Government’s marine policies

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item is the debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report, which is the report on the Welsh Government's marine policies, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the opportunity to discuss the content of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee's report on the marine policies of the Welsh Government, because, early in this Senedd term, the committee agreed that marine policies should be a priority area for us in our work over the next few years. The intention was that this short inquiry would be an initial look, a snapshot of the current situation in terms of the marine policies we have in Wales. And even though we didn't have much time to take this initial snapshot, we did succeed in covering a lot of ground. The committee, of course, is grateful to all stakeholders who contributed to our work, and to RSPB Cymru and the Marine Conservation Society in particular for also providing the committee with further information in advance of this debate this afternoon.

Now, the Welsh coastline, of course, is over 2,000 km in length, and much of it is the envy of the world. It provides huge marine energy opportunities—enough to help reach our decarbonisation targets—and this in turn can lead to jobs, economic growth and the regeneration of our coastal communities—some of those communities, of course, that need our support as things stand today.

And our marine environment is also home to some of the most biologically diverse and important habitats and species that we have in Europe, and that is also something to be appreciated and to protect at the same time. The key theme of our report, of course, was the balance between these two priorities. We welcome proposals to ramp up marine energy development over the next decade, but we must strike the right balance between those developments and the element of conservation and protecting what we have in terms of marine ecosystems and biodiversity.

Our report starts by focusing on marine planning. Now, currently, in Wales, we have a national marine plan, and environmental non-governmental organisations told us that one of the main drawbacks of the plan is that it isn't a spatial one. And because of this, it doesn't set out, for example, where developments should be sited or how many developments would be sustainable. It doesn't allow us to consider the cumulative effect of developments on the marine environment.

Stakeholders from the renewables sector firmly believed that the next decade must be focused on delivery of renewable energy developments, rather than redesigning strategies. They were worried that a new approach or policy would risk further delay. Having considered both arguments and these perspectives, the committee concluded that the best solution in the first place would be for the Welsh Government to commission an external review of the Wales national marine plan. Now is the time to consider whether the current plans and strategies in place currently will continue to be fit for purpose in the light of the expected increase in marine developments.

Even though the Minister has accepted the recommendation in principle—and I have a problem sometimes in accepting things in principle, as I don't always understand what that means—I am disappointed that her response shows that the external analysis won’t be commissioned in time for this year’s review, but for the next review, which isn't being undertaken until 2025, of course. Minister, this is a missed opportunity and means that any necessary changes won't be seen for many years to come.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

A second focus for the committee was the progress of the marine renewable energy sector. I should say here that we welcome the efforts of Ministers, through the deep dive into renewable energy, to remove some of the barriers to development. Members will have heard the Minister for Economy’s statement yesterday on progress in this area, and there is much to be welcomed, but the Minister’s comments would have done little to reassure some of the contributors to our committee work. Members will have heard the Minister for Economy saying that he expects offshore wind generation to increase from current levels of 726 MW to 2.8 GW by 2030, and a potential 6.8 GW by 2035. That is a significant increase in little more than a decade from now.

It's no wonder, in that context, that stakeholders again questioned how fit for purpose existing Welsh Government plans are. The marine energy plan was published back in 2016. It does not explain the Welsh Government’s ambitions for marine energy over the short and longer term. So, we think this needs to be looked at again. We need a route map for where we are going, and this would then provide certainty for developers and build confidence in the sector's long-term potential. Again, the Minister has agreed in principle to review the marine energy plan, but there’s no hint of a timetable for that work. [Interruption.] Of course, yes.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Llyr, for giving way on that, and for the way you've introduced this debate today. Would you recognise that some of those organisations, like WWF, the Marine Conservation Society, the RSPB, the Wildlife Trusts and others, do actually get the need to drive forward on renewables, but they want to make sure that we protect some of those valuable species, including migratory birds and wildlife, but also cetaceans? We just need to get this right, and data and evidence are key.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

That leads seamlessly on to the next part of my contribution. You are right; it isn't a binary choice of one or the other, but it's making sure that we have the frameworks and the strategies and the policies in place to make sure that these developments, which all of us, frankly, want to happen, and indeed need to happen in terms of the challenges that we face in relation to climate change, are done on the right terms, and within the right parameters.

You mentioned data and evidence gaps, and that was the third area covered in our work. Marine plans and strategies are only as good as the data that underpins them. We all know that. The lack of a robust evidence base to underpin those development decisions means, actually, that there are inherent risks in ramping up the development that many of us want to see. We recommended that the Welsh marine evidence strategy should be reviewed and updated in light of the deep dive, which committed to identifying priority marine evidence gaps and identifying mechanisms to fill them. So, we were surprised to read the Minister’s response to our recommendation, which says, and I quote, that

'Officials are content that the overarching strategic evidence priorities still represent the high-level evidence needs including those identified by the deep dive.'

So, apparently everything is okay, there’s nothing to worry about. Minister, the lack of evidence, as we've heard, is a real problem. Everybody told us that as part of the inquiry. And if the strategy is right, then something else isn't working, clearly, so maybe you can tell us what it is and what, more importantly, you’re going to do about it. And you are nodding, so I'm looking forward to your contribution. I always look forward to your contribution, but particularly now.

On marine protected areas, I am pleased that the Minister has accepted our recommendations, but delve a little deeper and there are still some areas of concern here. Recommendation 16 called for the Welsh Government to set out its latest plans for the designation of highly protected marine areas. The Minister says that the Welsh Government will look at this after the MPA network completion programme. But, the truth is that the consultation on that programme isn't due to take place until 2023. So, again, we may be looking at years of delay here. Where is the urgency?

The Minister's response to the committee's report does seem to raise more questions than answers. Anyone reading it would rightly feel that there are no problems in this policy area, no weaknesses that need to be strengthened, and no need for urgency. They might even think that the Minister is trying to kick these issues into the long sea grass. Take another example. We asked the Minister for a timeline for a consultation on the future of bottom trawling and dredging in marine protected areas. I know this is something that many Members have raised here in the Chamber in the past, and I know the Petitions Committee as well has considered this. The Welsh Government has yet to consult on the management of towed gear, including bottom trawling, within marine protected areas. In contrast, of course, the UK administrations have progressed to the introduction of management measures for all fisheries gears in marine protected areas. In her response, the Minister tells us that, and I quote again,

'The timescale for any consultation will be determined alongside other Welsh Government priorities at the time.'

What does that mean? No detail, no dates. We're already behind other parts of the UK and we might still be years away from seeing changes on that particular issue.

Minister, at the start of my speech, I said that this inquiry was a snapshot of the health of marine policies, so what was the committee's verdict? Well, we all expect a significant ramping up of marine energy development during this decade, yet all the while, our marine environment is under threat. So, to tackle this, we need a holistic system that considers the effects of cumulative development on the marine environment, whilst doing what it can, of course, to remove any unnecessary barriers that are identified to the utilisation of natural resources. The committee believes we are a long way from that right now. So, we need the Minister and the Government to accept that business as usual isn’t enough to respond to the climate change crisis and the biodiversity loss that we are facing. We need to do more and we need to do it sooner. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

It's a pleasure to follow Llyr, our Chair on this committee, and to say a few words. I'll try not to replicate what he said, but I want to touch on a few points, including in the Welsh Government's response as well, before I come to what I think is the critical issue of data and evidence, which I'm going to major on, if that's okay.

First of all, in terms of recommendation 1, that an external analysis of the Wales national marine plan should be commissioned, we note that there's an agreement in principle there, but it is to inform the next statutory report. I think the committee would feel strongly that we'd like to see it earlier than that because of the urgency that the Chair has laid out so much. So, we would still, I think, push hard on that and I'm sure we'll return to it.

On the stakeholder engagement in recommendation 2, just to say to the Minister that it isn't that there aren't the structures in place to do the stakeholder engagement, it's actually the quality of the stakeholder engagement. The feeling from some—and I will confess and admit that it's from some particularly in the environmental sector—is that whilst they're engaged, and they stretch themselves to engage on the various stakeholder groups, they're not clear that they're being listened to in the way that we face the nature crisis and the biodiversity crisis. The baseline that they want to start from is not the baseline, always, that Government wants to start from. They want to see a picture of the sea bed and the flora and fauna as it should be, not as it is now, and so on. So, it would simply be an encouragement, on recommendation 2, Minister, to see that recommendation in the way that the subtext behind it is that it's the quality of the engagement and the listening. You do an enormous amount of stakeholder engagement, but it's actually the engagement and the detail to follow through as well. So, take that in the spirit it's meant. And I know I'm the worst nightmare of any Minister sitting in that position—[Interruption.] I know I am; thank you for a 'yes' there. As a former fisheries and marine Minister myself, I am the worst nightmare.

On recommendation 4, setting out the plans for the devolution of the management of the Crown Estate, I'm just wondering, Minister, if we have a contradiction, because you have accepted that, and that's wonderful, it really is wonderful, but then it talks about

'looking at the implications of devolution.... Once this task has been completed we will be able to finalise our plans for the Crown Estate.'

You've accepted the recommendation about the devolution of the management, setting out the plans, and so on. I guess you can't go any further yet, but it would be interesting if you could get on your feet today and say, 'Well, actually, it makes sense now to just move ahead with this and move to the devolution of it.' I'm not underplaying, by the way, the role that they have and the work that they are currently doing, but it would be interesting to have some of the levers of control here.

On recommendations 9, 10 and 11, on evidence and data—. Well, let me come back to that in a moment, because I do want to spend a couple of minutes going over it. Let me just skip ahead here. On recommendation 13, where we look at the lack of progress on the designation of marine protected areas and MCZs, and ask you to set out a timetable, you have accepted this, and you've said that this will be in the next phase of work to be launched in the coming months, which is great to hear. Subsequently, in recommendation 16, we go on to the slow progress on highly protected marine areas, and again, you accept that. You accept that

'The need, and appropriateness, for areas of higher protection should be considered as part of this process.'

We get all of that. All I would say to you—and I know you get this, Minister, I really know you get this—is that there is a real hunger out there to get on not only with the designation of those, but also, then, because that enables us to get on with the effective management of those areas as well, because that's the other thing. We've got a recommendation in here to do with trawling—that's the only other one I wanted to touch on before the issues over data and evidence. It's on dredging and bottom trawling. Again, you've accepted our recommendation, and you've said—and it's very well written—that you'll undertake

'a structured evaluation of potential fishing gear interactions with features of Welsh Marine Protected Areas (MPAs) referred to as the Assessing Welsh Fishing Activities project'

and that it'll be completed in summer 2022. That's really great, but we actually know the damage that these activities do to some of the most highly sensitive areas. And I know this is tricky for people involved in the fishing industry, but, actually, this is one of the areas we're going to have to make a decision on, ultimately, for that aspiration of returning these areas to what we know they should be as opposed to what they are now, and how they're being damaged.

I've run out of time already. I would ask you particularly, then, without referring to my notes, to look at this issue of evidence and data. There's a lot of good evidence that we took here. A lot of people said we are not at the point we need to be at with data and evidence, and unless we can actually see what is there in that great blue zone below the waves, and so on, it's going to be limited as to what we can do. I think, Minister, this has been going on for a decade and more, trying to pull together the evidence base. I know there are commercial sensitivities, and as my five minutes comes up, I would simply say, Minister, we need to go further with the marine science strategies and the work that the Welsh Government is doing to break down the barriers about sharing information between academia, commercial interests and NRW. Everybody should be pooling that, even if it's anonymised, so we can map more accurately what is actually happening out there now. Diolch yn fawr.