Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 23 March 2022

270 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

Statement by the Deputy Presiding Officer

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on the agenda.

I would remind all Members to ensure that their questions are succinct and within time, please, and would urge Ministers to also give succinct answers.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

First this afternoon we have questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to help improve employment opportunities for disabled people? OQ57834

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We continue to take a range of measures to help improve economic opportunities for disabled people. That includes the establishment, in 2020, of a Welsh Government network of disabled people's employment champions to engage with employers to encourage the further employment of disabled people.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank you for your answer and I very much welcome the Welsh Government's employer incentive scheme for disabled apprentices. It's well documented that the employment rate of disabled people is much lower when compared to non-disabled people. Figures up until March 2020 showed that the employment rate for disabled people was 50 per cent, compared to 81 per cent for non-disabled people. It's absolutely crucial that, as a Government, everything is done that can be done to bridge that gap and tackle the inequality. Minister, I'm keen to know how you're advertising this scheme and where potential employers can find out about it. Also, is the Welsh Government encouraging employers to link up with organisations, like Leonard Cheshire Disability, which have a long and successful track record of helping disabled people find work?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. You're right to point out the significant difference in economic outcomes for disabled people and people who don't have a disability. That's part of the reason why we shifted so much of our employability and skills plans to try to make sure that we helped people furthest from the labour market, including significant numbers of disabled people.

As to the service we broadly provide, we make sure that's advertised through a network of disabled people's organisations and employability providers, and the first port of call for anybody looking for help and support is the Business Wales service. It's a one-stop-shop. There is no wrong door—if you go to Business Wales, they will help you to find where that support is available. And Leonard Cheshire, which you mentioned specifically, are a member of our disabled people's employment working group. They help us with advice and guidance on emerging issues and priorities, and it's really important to listen to and to work with an organisation like Leonard Cheshire, which can not only tell us about their work, but the lived experience of people and whether we're really making the difference we want to.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I recently had the opportunity to visit Carmarthenshire People First—a fantastic independent charity that's taking a leading role in supporting adults with learning disabilities by providing independent advocacy, training and support to individuals who need it. The charity is led by a fabulous team of dedicated and passionate staff, spearheaded by Sarah Mackintosh, the charity's manager. Time and time again, Sarah and her team have gone above and beyond the call of duty to offer support to those who need it, especially during the darkest times of the pandemic. Whether it's organising walks along the River Towy, bingo nights in their headquarters, or delivering winter well-being packages, they do brilliant things and I'm pleased to champion them in the Senedd today. But given this brilliant work that Carmarthenshire People First do, can the Minister outline what financial support is available to this charity and others to ensure they can continue to support individuals with learning disabilities with employment opportunities? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question and for highlighting the work that People First do, not just in Carmarthen, but in other parts of the country. I have done work in my constituency role with Cardiff People First and, again, it's an organisation that actually has disabled people making their own choices and fronting a lot that the organisations do. So, I've had a very positive experience in seeing the difference they can make with and for disabled people.

Part of the challenge goes back to my response to Joyce Watson and about how, from a Business Wales point of view, to help people if they're looking for that experience, and there's a range of different areas where people can look for individual support. The challenge always is the resource we have directly available and the resource that other organisations have available too, whether local authorities or others. If People First are looking at a particular issue within Carmarthenshire, then I'd be more than pleased to receive correspondence and make sure that the right organisation, or the right part of Government, responds to you.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. What discussions has the Minister had with Cardiff capital region regarding its purchase of Aberthaw power station? OQ57832

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. I have discussed the recent purchase of Aberthaw with a number of members of the Cardiff capital region board. My officials continue to maintain a dialogue with the capital region on this and other matters as we look to exploit the potential for renewable energy in particular.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Obviously, this wasn't part of the original business plan, this purchase of Aberthaw power station, and the plans that have come forward are dynamic, in fairness, with the potential of 5,000 jobs to be created over the medium to long term. In your discussions, have you been assessing how much demand might be placed on Welsh Government resources—additional demand on Welsh Government resources—to allow the plans to come to fruition that would see the creation of these 5,000 jobs and the potential to develop green energy projects there? Because there's a lot of remediation work to go on on the site, but there'll be additional resource issues, I would suggest, about bringing new investment as well.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

So, this is part of where I think, actually—. There are areas where there's disagreement between the Welsh and the UK Governments, and, actually, the city deals and the regional deals that are taking place are an example of where we can work together. Of course, there's a wider investment fund, where the UK Government provided funds, as indeed have local authorities. The conversations my officials are having are exactly on the points that you raise—what's the potential, how close are we from potential, and the larger and the longer term investment opportunities being realised as to what we do now, and will there be a call on Welsh Government resources, and, if so, in what space. So, there isn't a finalised answer to the point you make, but that's exactly why conversations are taking place. And we're in a good place, with positive relationships with each of our economic regions—the four regions that are taking part, with their regional economic frameworks. And I'm hoping that we can make not just outline promises of what might be, but come with rather more practical measures to realise the significant and positive jobs impact this could have.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Minister. First of all, the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, yesterday, I raised with you the Cardiff capital region brochure that boasted of relatively low rates of pay, and describes Cardiff as having lower graduate salaries than Birmingham, London, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Unsurprisingly, Cardiff capital region's approach has been labelled a destructive strategy that would push away young talent in south-east Wales by Nerys Lloyd-Pierce, chair of Cardiff Civic Society. And TUC general secretary, Shavanah Taj, has said that this is a depressing and divisive approach that risks locking in a low-wage economy for the many communities the Cardiff capital region represents. Minister, given that you have previously said that you don't have to get out to get on in Wales, can you tell us how the Cardiff capital region's marketing strategy works alongside the Welsh Government's approach for graduate retention?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I don't think it's fair to say that the capital region is looking to lock in depressed graduate salaries. Actually, the ambition of the capital region, which is made up, as you know, of a partnership between 10 local authorities, of differing political leaderships, and the UK and Welsh Governments, is to lever in and engineer further growth, improved productivity, and actually raise wages right across the region. That's why there are conversations about what can take place within the capital, as well as what takes place outside of Cardiff—whether it's at Aberthaw or whether it's in what we want to see in terms of improving economic performance and outcomes for people in the Valleys as well. So, this is really about wanting to raise the bar and see further growth and improvement in wages, including for graduates.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, I hope you'll condemn this brochure, Minister, because it's vital that Wales is not marketed to external investors as a low-wage economy, and this language certainly does nothing to retain graduates who feel that they do have to get out of Wales to get on in life. Now, of course, it's crucial that, as we develop the Welsh economy post pandemic, the Welsh Government harnesses the unique skills and sectors associated with local areas. And one way to do that is through enterprise zones. It's vital that the enterprise zones align with the priorities agreed in the regional economic frameworks that have recently been published, and it's important we see real outcomes and value for money from the enterprise zones. Minister, I understand that enterprise zones have been through a period of extensive review, which has been informed by discussions with key stakeholders, and which builds on the earlier review undertaken in 2018, according to a recent written statement that you have issued. Can you therefore tell us what the outcomes of that review have been, and can you also confirm today how you're ensuring that each of the enterprise zones is delivering value for money for the Welsh taxpayer?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, you're right to say that our enterprise zones strategy needs to make sure that it's aligned with the broader work we're undertaking with partners. And I think, actually, it's a real strength that we're able to have a joint conversation, where the Welsh Government and local authorities in those regional groups and business organisations have a single voice, and it's interesting that that unified and cohesive offer is something that a number of people find attractive, for growth within the UK as well as the potential for inward investment.

The three enterprise zones that are continuing, based around the three potential port areas of Neath Port Talbot, around Pembrokeshire and, indeed, in north Wales around Holyhead, all have potentially different missions that could all be complementary, and are certainly complementary with the aspirations of each of the regional economic frameworks. And that's how we're looking to make sure we have a complementary approach, rather than a competitive or competing or contradictory approach between what the enterprise zones are doing and their line of sight with those regions. I can provide the Member with extra assurance because I met the three chairs of the enterprise zones that are continuing, and this was part of the discussion that we had.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Of course, Minister, it's vital that the enterprise zones, the Cardiff capital region, the regional skills partnerships and other key forums are working together effectively, and that we can see clear outcomes and value for money from them. The Welsh Government's regional economic frameworks are important in developing place-based approaches to economic development, and marketing the distinctive benefits of each of our regions. Of course, it's vital that we can see how these frameworks are not only improving prosperity in each region, but also how they are tackling some of the deep structural issues that have plagued some communities in Wales for far too long. Therefore, Minister, can you tell us what key performance indicators will be used to rate how effective the regional economic frameworks are in practice? Can you also tell us how you will ensure that these frameworks do not result in further bureaucracy and duplication, and will you also commit to providing an annual update on the outcomes of each of these frameworks so Members can determine their effectiveness?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, the regional economic frameworks actually set out how partners are going to work together and the priorities for investment in improvement in those regions. And they're not imposed by Welsh Government—far from it. It's joint work that's been undertaken between those economic regions, between the different partnerships that exist together in Wales, and, in each of them, there's been a different level of political leadership in each region with local authorities, but they've all recognised they can gain more by working together and having a sense of priorities. And the regional skills partnerships on the same footprint are helping to do that in a way that I think is consistent and adds value to each other.

For each of the regions, you'll be able to see not just the areas of priority, but whether we are making progress in each of those areas as we go through each year. I'm not sure that a report from me annually is necessarily the right way to go, but I do think it would be helpful, between the Welsh Government and each of those economic regions, to be able to provide an update on a basis that would be shared, because this is the part of the challenge, isn't it—there's often a demand that the Minister does everything, and, in this area, we recognise we have to work alongside local authorities and the powers that they have, and it's actually about the Welsh Government not simply directing everything in this area, but working in a much more cohesive and effective partnership. I'd be more than happy to discuss with each of those regions how we provide a regular update so that the people that local authorities are accountable to, which is obviously a subject on everyone's mind given the elections at the start of May, together with the Government, know what we are doing together to improve economic fortunes and to make sure you can see the sort of progress that we are making.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I listened with great interest to your response to Paul Davies, both yesterday and today, on the Cardiff capital region's absolutely shocking boast about relatively lower graduate pay in Cardiff compared to counterparts elsewhere in the UK. These comments, while supposedly to attract inward investors into the region, are ultimately insulting to our young talent, treating them merely as a cheap resource. Welsh graduates must be valued as more than cheap labour if the Welsh brain drain is to be rectified. I also noted the Minister didn't respond to Paul Davies's calls in his second question to condemn what was in the prospectus relating to wages. So, I wonder, then, does the Minister think this kind of rhetoric from Cardiff capital region is appropriate, and does he think that the promotion of a low-wage economy is the best way to further the Welsh economy.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I just don't think the Cardiff capital region are promoting a low-wage economy in what they're saying. I haven't read the exact text in the brochure, so I'm not going to say that I absolutely endorse or condemn what's there. I know from my conversations with the varied leadership of the region that they are not looking to promote this part of Wales as an area of cheap labour. They recognise there are significant skills. We have lots of graduates coming out of the universities, and that's very attractive for a range of businesses already here as well as people who might want to invest in this particular part of Wales. The fact that there is an economy that is growing, the fact that there are lots of graduate skills—and it's the skills that people are looking for—is attractive.

The ultimate end goal is to improve people's economic outcomes, to see wages rise, and that's particularly important given the cost-of-living crisis that we are still going through. So, in terms of the way it's been presented to me, that certainly isn't the way that I would present the plans for the Cardiff capital region, but I'm not entirely sure it's a faithful or fair representation of the way that the capital region themselves are looking to market the opportunities to improve productivity and wage growth here within the capital region.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I have to say I find it difficult to accept that the Cardiff capital region isn't promoting low wages, and of course the explanation given by yourself as well yesterday in response to Paul Davies that the way this has been reported has been miscast, I hope you'd forgive me in saying that I find this nothing more than a bit of spin. I'll read directly from the prospectus, and I quote here:

'We're competitive. The Cardiff Capital Region provides clear cost advantages with competitive operating costs in comparison with other major UK cities. With the security of a large and skilled workforce, the region has an extremely attractive proposition.'

It goes on to talk about salaries.

'Our workforce is distinctively younger than the UK average, well-educated and diverse, supported by three highly regarded universities. Salary costs across the region are very competitive.'

And it goes on to list then the salaries by city, with Cardiff being right at the bottom, highlighted. It further goes on to describe Cardiff as a low-risk, high-reward location that provides clear cost advantages compared with other major UK cities. I think that's pretty clear cut.

And then the reality is that this isn't the first time that something like this has happened. I remember in 2019 my colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth raising almost an identical issue where Trade and Investment Wales had hailed 30 per cent lower salary costs in Wales compared to the other parts of the UK as a reason to invest in Wales. This, sadly, I have to say—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to ask the question now.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

—reflects the ongoing trend where wages in Wales have stagnated for far too long under successive Labour Governments. But I do hope that the Minister in his time in this portfolio will buck that trend, and I sincerely mean that. But how does he propose we tackle the brain drain when there are public bodies in Wales promoting a low-wage economy, and how can we measure his success? Because I certainly don't want to come back to the Minister highlighting this again, and I'd hope none of my successors will need to either.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, look, when you actually think about what you've just read out, it doesn't simply say, 'We are marketing the capital region as a low-wage economy.' It's also about the aspirations. When you look at the wider economic framework, actually, they're very clear in the wider economic framework they want to see investment choices made that help to grow businesses and grow wages. And you also think of what's said about land values. Actually, land values are a really big issue for businesses that are looking to invest, as well as the skills in a population. When I recently met with other inward investors, they were most interested in the skills of the population and the future graduates—the future workforce where they were interested. So, this is about investing in the skills of our population. It's about investing in areas where we know we've got areas of strength. I don't accept that the capital region is being marketed as an area of low wages and wages to be kept low. It's actually about how do we ensure that we have advantages for the capital region, particularly with a younger population, which is a real advantage for a range of employers as well, but high levels of skill and the potential for real wage growth, which is what I want to see, and it's certainly what the capital region wants to see as well.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

3. How is the Welsh Government supporting economic development in the Mersey Dee area? OQ57825

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We continue to support the region through our regional economic framework and our place-based approach to economic development. The Welsh Government is a founder member of the Mersey Dee Alliance, as the Member will know, and this is a partnership of organisations working to support the cross-border functional economic area between the north-east of Wales, west Cheshire and the Wirral.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I thank the Minister for his answer to my question and also for his steadfast support for Wrexham's bid to be the UK City of Culture in 2025? The Minister's support has been noted across the county borough, and it's been incredibly valuable to be able to boast of to other bidders and obviously to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and to the board. In the spirit of solidarity with our northern cousins, who have also supported the bid, would you join Mayors Rotherham and Burnham in calling for the FA Cup semi-final to be moved from Wembley to the north? And would you be able to outline how discussions with our partners across the Mersey Dee area are taking place, with a view of creating more high-quality jobs across the region?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. On both the first points, yes, I am very pleased to continue my stated support for Wrexham's bid to be the UK City of Culture. I know that the Member, and indeed the one-time director of Wrexham Supporters Trust, the constituency Member for Wrexham, have been very clear in their support for the bid as well, as indeed are people across the region and outside. It enjoys cross-party support.

And I also think it would be a very sensible move to ensure that Manchester City and Liverpool fans don't travel to London for the FA Cup semi-final, and that would have wider benefits as well.

And when it comes to developments in the Mersey Dee area, my officials continue to work directly with the counties on both sides of the border to try to understand how we maximise the opportunities that do exist in a range of sectors, from offshore wind to nuclear to marine energy, and of course a range of cross-border supply issues. So, I'm very optimistic about the strength of the partnership that exists, and a recognition that investment in this part of the UK, whether on the Welsh side of the border or the other side, will have a significant and positive impact. So, we'll continue to have those purposive, and what I hope will be productive, conversations.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In addition to UK Government-supported signalling renewals on the north Wales main line and over £1.2 billion UK Government funding for the Liverpool city region, benefiting rail service and inter-city transport and economies in the Mersey Dee area, including north-east Wales, the Mersey Dee area has received £59 million directly from the UK Government, including £2.6 million for the Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool rail line, and £400,000 to further develop proposals for a new station at Deeside industrial park. Step-free access at Flint station is also in development. Network Rail is progressing the development of north Wales main line journey time improvements to outline business-case stage by summer 2022, following which a decision to design will be sought by the rail network enhancements pipeline. And £42.5 million development moneys for the union connectivity review, carried out for the UK Government, which recognised north Wales and north-west England as a highly integrated cross-border economy that will benefit from a programme of transport improvements, will be allocated soon. How will you and your officials therefore work with the UK Government to maximise the economic benefit of this for the Mersey Dee area?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, we'd like to be able to do just that. It does require, though, not just a level of honesty but a level of practical ability to work together, and that can't be on the basis that the UK Government decide what's going to happen and then demand that the Welsh Government falls into line. Now, in the Mersey Dee area you've got local authorities on both sides of the border who are having that productive conversation, and again including different political leadership, so it is about recognising the wider benefit to it.

But a range of the areas that you've mentioned in your statement and question actually come from reserved responsibilities. It's the UK Government's responsibility to invest in rail infrastructure and of course that investment can provide significant additional economic benefit. And of course the union connectivity review you mentioned, one of the things it highlighted, as indeed has the Conservative chair of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, is that HS2 is going to be a problem for the economy of Wales. It should be seen as an England-only project, not England-and-Wales, and that would actually allow us to have significant additional investment within connectivity and transport infrastructure here in Wales, and I hope the Member will join with other people across the Chamber in calling for the UK Government to change its mind on the way that HS2 is categorised, because at the moment Wales will lose out.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plan for employability and skills? OQ57817

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

On 8 March, I launched the plan for employability and skills, and you'll recall that I also gave an oral statement in this Chamber, at which you were able to ask questions. I outlined our priorities to help more people in Wales to upskill, access and, hopefully, thrive in work, for a more equal economy that works for everyone.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I'm grateful to you for that response, Minister. Now, the Welsh Government's plan for employability and skills commits to reviewing adult education and lifelong learning and improving quality and access to skills-based formal and informal adult learning, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, Minister, that, sometimes, shorter courses can be more effective than other routes at filling skills gaps. Therefore, can you tell us when the review of adult education and lifelong learning will take place, and can you tell us what discussions have you had as the economy Minister with skills providers about how the adult education and lifelong learning sector can be strengthened in the future?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There are challenges in this area that I'm discussing with the Minister for education and lifelong learning, and our joint engagement with the further education sector in particular. It's both about the way that funding is still up in the air—and we've had this discussion more than once about people's ability to engage in skilled work—and replacement EU funds aren't being fully matched and replaced. The Minister for education and lifelong learning will give more detail about the finalisation of the review into adult and lifelong learning, but I do think the way that we've set out our employability and skills plan, with the priorities we've set about who we want to see that investment made in, to ensure that people can return to the labour market or get closer to the labour market, will actually have the ability to make a real difference, and that will be about understanding the individual needs of people, not a one-size-fits-all approach. So, I'm sure the Member will be interested when we have more detail provided in the near future.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Minister, generation after generation in Rhondda have been let down by consecutive Tory Westminster Governments. Time and time again, we have lost employment as a direct result of their decisions. Our forefathers lost their industry. More recently, we've lost the tax office, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency jobs, Department for Work and Pensions offices and the local courts. We've lost police on our streets, among other public sector jobs, thanks to Tory austerity, and now Boris wants to shortchange Wales by £1 billion. If it wasn't for Welsh Government's investment in support of companies like E-Cycle and Flowtech, local businesses in our town centres in Treorchy and Ferndale, and initiatives like the Big Shed in Tonypandy, the remote working hub in Porth and the Court House in Llwynypia, we would see much higher unemployment figures in Rhondda. How will the employability and skills plan build on the success we are beginning to see in Rhondda, so we don't have to get out to get on?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question and the reminder of some of the significant challenges we have, and the £1 billion shortchanging in Wales in replacement EU funds will make a big difference to what we're able to do and the speed at which we're able to do it. In setting out our economic mission and the employability and skills plan, we're focusing on what we can do, so that's why we're going to continue to work to help to bring people closer to the labour market, those people who aren't there already, and we know that there are significant and differential outcomes for people with disabilities, as Joyce Watson highlighted earlier, but also economic activity rates in communities like the ones that the Member represents. So, I'm confident that we will be able to make a difference, but my frustration is we could do so much more if we had a UK Government on our side. I hope that, during this term, we'll see a change in that respect from the UK, but we're determined to do everything we can to make sure there's a better story to tell for the Rhondda and other similar communities and make sure we really can be successful and you won't need to get out to get on.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the tourism sector? OQ57830

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Our strategy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the visitor economy 2020-2025', sets our vision and ambition for the sector. We also, of course, have the shaping the vision recovery plan published a year ago. In the budget for 2022-23, we've indicated an allocation of £47 million over three years to deliver on those priorities.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Minister for your response and, as I'm sure you'd agree, the tourism sector is so important here in Wales, and that's why it's a pleasure to chair the Senedd's cross-party group on tourism. I look forward to seeing many Members attending the meeting next week.

But Minister, as you'll know, Wales welcomes around 11 million overnight domestic visitors, 87 million day visitors, around 1 million international visitors in normal years, and these people come to our country, spend their money, support local jobs and enjoy all that we have to offer, and, in my own patch in north Wales, this sector is worth around £3.5 billion a year to our economy.

One of the big concerns that the tourism sector are sharing with me is the Government's latest council tax empty dwellings regulations, and specifically the criteria for self-catering accommodation being aligned with business rates instead of council tax and the changes that would take place there, with properties now needing to be let for 182 days, which is a 160 per cent increase, and available to let for 252 days, which is an 80 per cent increase and, confusingly, quite different to HMRC's definition in terms of tax purposes. Many people in the tourism sector—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You will need to ask your question now, please.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'll come to it now. Many people in the tourism sector are shocked by these changes, and see them as being detrimental to their livelihoods. So, Minister, do you think these changes are good for the sector?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, there was significant comment on exactly this subject yesterday with my colleague the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and in questions elsewhere. Look, I've actually met the visitor economy forum today and this is a subject they've raised. There are concerns around a number of areas. The challenge though is the balance in what we're trying to do, and the balance in what we're trying to do to have a successful and healthy visitor economy, with decent jobs and decent wages, that doesn't have an unacceptable impact on communities that host parts of the visitor economy as well. And the balance in all of this can't be struck successfully if we do nothing and simply carry on as we are. So, we'll continue to engage with all those businesses in the visitor economy. What we won't do is pretend that just business as usual, as it is now, is going to deliver the successful future we all want to see. And when you're in Government, you have to decide and you have to make choices about how that balance is going to be struck. I'm optimistic that we are on the path to another successful season for the visitor economy here in Wales, and more to come for both domestic and international visitors.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding encouraging businesses to prioritise health and well-being in the workplace? OQ57836

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Welcome back. The health and well-being of workers is a priority for this Government. Last month, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being and I announced £1.4 million of funding over the next three years for the Time to Change Wales programme to continue. We also work together on the Healthy Working Wales programme as well.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. The COVID pandemic has led to a dramatic change in the way we work. Whilst many will now be returning to the office, some workers will still be working from home and getting used to new, more flexible work practices. Whilst the flexibility is to be welcomed, this has led to a blurring of the lines between the work and the home environment in some cases. Countries like Portugal and Belgium are introducing right-to-disconnect legislation, which allows employees to disconnect from their work outside of office hours. Has there been any discussions within the Welsh Government or with the UK Government about introducing similar rules for Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

No, we're not at that point. We are having a conversation about what is a healthy balance in the way that the world of work has changed during the pandemic, and how much that change is going to be permanent. And actually, some of the challenges about the surveillance of people when they're working remotely—it's a matter that, of course, Sarah Murphy, the Member for Bridgend has consistently raised. There's a balance between those people who have seen a well-being improvement from being able to have some of their working life done remotely and those who have found it a struggle in not being as connected to the workplace as well. So, it isn't as simple as saying, 'Going back to the office is good for everybody's mental health', and it's not as simple as saying, 'People not working in an office is good for them as well.' So, there's the challenge in the balance. And interestingly, at yesterday's CIPD conference, this was part of the conversation being had.

In the visitor economy forum meeting that I had today, I made the offer that what I would like from the Government's point of view is a clear understanding, as the changing pattern emerges, between businesses and business organisations and trade unions, on what a better pattern of a working life is likely to mean, to make sure we balance some of these competing objectives in how you get on in your industry—actually, part of the practical business of learning on the job, as I did when I was a trainee solicitor; doing that was much easier when you were around other people—and at the same time, balancing other parts of your life and not necessarily having to be in a singular workplace five days a week for as many hours as possible. So, that's part of the challenge that we have, and I'm optimistic that we will get to a sensible place, because of the successful social partnership approach that we have. And that may mean that there is a case to change the reserved matters of employment law, and it may also mean we can do some of that, simply, with the successful partnership that we've already established here in Wales.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'm a proud ambassador of the 'Where's Your Head At?' mental health campaign, and the campaign has culminated in a Bill going through the UK Parliament to ensure that, within first aid training, mental health first aid training is incorporated, and to recognise that the physical and mental side of first aid training are equal. I'm just wondering what you are doing in the strategies that you've announced to ensure that we have mental health first aiders within all businesses across Wales, and don't you agree with me that it's important that we have champions within the workplace looking after the needs of people with mental ill health?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, actually, the broader point about mental health is that it's something for all of us, in having some balance in what we do and to be able to be successful in work and outside work as well. It's not just a question of those people who are struggling with their mental health; maintaining good mental health is a matter for all of us. And actually, rather than having a specific point about wanting to try to mandate mental health first aiding that, actually, my own constituency office, for example, has undertaken and we've found it beneficial, but it's then also about what we do in our wider encouragement and leadership. And actually, in the Healthy Working Wales programme, that's part of what happens—looking at the mental health of a workforce, not just physical health. It's also part of our economic contract in one of the new pillars, in the promotion of people's physical and mental well-being as well. So, it's very definitely part of what we are looking for businesses to do and part of what we expect to see moving forward as a regular part of the way that every business and public service operates.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effects of COVID on town-centre businesses in South Wales West? OQ57835

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

COVID has accelerated the trend we're seeing, with the change in the use of town and city centres and in particular, during the height of the pandemic, it obviously reduced demand for high-street retail. That's why, in January 2020, we launched the Transforming Towns programme to help support town-centre businesses, and that is now being led by my colleague the Deputy Minister for Climate Change.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Weinidog. When prompted to rank what they would like to see in their local town centre or high street, thriving small, independent shops came out on top in a survey conducted by the Federation of Small Businesses for its recent report, 'A Vision for Welsh Towns'. Even before COVID, town centres in my region were struggling, and the pandemic has had an especially negative effect on small and family-run high-street retail businesses. The support given to these local businesses during the pandemic has, of course, helped them weather that particular storm, but now although restrictions are easing, footfall is still low and the bills are now really piling up.

One of my constituents has run a shop in Neath town centre for much of the last 10 years. He said that with support ending and high business rates on top of that, they're really having a tough time; as sky-rocketing energy bills are presenting another headache, he said lower business rates would really help. As high business rates are compounding the challenges that town centres face, will the Minister consider increasing rates relief for town-centre retail businesses and heed the FSB's call to urgently publish its review of the business rates system and outline proposals for substantive reform that works for small local businesses? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

So, business rates reform is a matter for the Minister for Finance and Local Government. When it comes to the rates relief system, of course, we've announced rates relief for a range of businesses and we'd encourage businesses to make sure that they take up their entitlement to the 50 per cent rates relief. Now, having had, essentially, no business rates in a range of those areas to then having any business rates return will be a challenge for some businesses, compounded, of course, by the cost-of-living crisis, which is something for both the customers of those businesses as well as the businesses themselves, which will have their own energy bills as well.

So, the retail vision that we're working on is actually even more important, I think, about what we can do together to make sure that we do have a thriving and positive future for retail, both large and small. And, of course, when it comes to the business of how we have effective town centres, it's partly about a sense of place and what people think makes the place they live in special, as well as where you might visit as well. That's why we're trialling something called NearMeNow to provide small businesses and high streets with greater digital marketing capability. Because actually, as well as physical footfall, we know that lots of those businesses didn't have a digital presence pre the pandemic, and it's something that can generate footfall if people can collect items from those businesses and then look at other purchases while they're there. We continue to work with not just the FSB, but others on what the future vision for retail will be, and it's definitely entwined with the work that the Deputy Minister is leading on climate change, but also my portfolio on how we do generate a greater return for thriving high streets and places.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

8. What priority does the Welsh Government give to improving people's quality of life when developing economic initiatives? OQ57837

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Our vision is for a well-being economy that drives prosperity, is environmentally sound and helps everyone to realise their potential. The principles of our groundbreaking Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 shape the decisions that we make in supporting our economic initiatives.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch. The pandemic has left a lasting impression on the communities that I represent in South Wales East, and the impact has been more detrimental in the poorest places of the country, exacerbating inequalities that already existed. As we've marked two years since we first entered lockdown, has the Government considered how economic measures can incorporate measures that would encourage a healthier and fairer nation? For example, in our local government manifesto, Plaid Cymru will pledge to provide local government staff with access to occupational health services, leisure and sports facilities, as well as working with business providers to see how this access can be expanded to employees of SMEs. Is this something your Government will seek to work on in tandem with local authorities? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, of course, every local authority will have its own mandate in the near future, and I hope to be working with an even greater number of Welsh Labour leaders in the future. But, as we have seen during the last two years, we've worked effectively with leaderships of varying political shades. In the Cardiff capital region, there's a Conservative leader, some independents and Labour leaders. When I think about north Wales and west Wales, we again work with people of varied political leadership. So, the challenge will be the mandate that each local authority has and their choices about how they want to exercise the powers and responsibilities that they have too.

But when it comes to a healthier and fairer Wales, that is very much in line with the aspirations and ambitions of this Government. If you think about the questions we've just previously heard, about the economic contract, about one of its main aspects now in terms of the call for an improvement in the physical and mental health of the workforce. If you think about, from a fairer work perspective, the fact that there's going to be a significant piece of legislation, where Members will be discussing what to do on social partnership procurement and including the central concept of fair work. So, that's central to what this Government's mission is: economic growth in a sustainable manner, and a genuine fair-work nation. So, I look forward to what I hope will be constructive conversations, regardless of the verdict of the electorate and the future leadership of local authorities across Wales.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

9. How is the Welsh Government supporting the recovery of town centre businesses in Carmarthenshire? OQ57828

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Our £136 million Transforming Towns programme focuses on the diversification and sustainable growth of town and city centres, through interventions that include the reuse of derelict and empty buildings, increasing the variety of and access to services in towns and cities, and an emphasis on flexible working and living space, mixed-use space, improved green infrastructure, and, of course, services and leisure.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

We heard earlier, in Sioned Williams's question, a reference to the FSB report, which demonstrates the very challenging circumstances facing shops in our town centres, and 67 per cent of the public questioned described their town centres as being bleak or in a poor state, with only 3 per cent talking about prosperous town centres. Now, in that challenging context, does the Minister welcome the significant investment that Plaid Cymru-led Carmarthenshire County Council has announced in its towns programme—its 10 Towns programme—including investment in Ammanford in my constituency? And in thinking of what the Welsh Government can do at a national level to promote local investment of this kind, are you looking at moving away from a business rates system to a new system based on land value, where there is evidence that changing that regime would promote and encourage better investment in our town centres and would be fairer in terms of the kind of independent local shops that Sioned Williams referred to?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I welcome the Member's consistent call for land valuation to replace business rates, and, of course, as I've said earlier, the reform of business rates or otherwise is a matter for the Minister for Finance and Local Government.

But I continue to take an interest in the practical reality of where we are now and where we could be in the future, and that's why we have worked alongside towns in terms of a specific piece of work that we're doing, a specific funding, not just a Transforming Towns initiative, but the money we've given to the smart town centre, the towns into business fund, what we're looking to do to both measure and promote footfall within what we want to be thriving, living and working spaces. And when it comes to the work that Carmarthenshire council is doing, of course, they've had over £10 million from the Welsh Government in Transforming Towns grant funding, and that has helped with a range of transformation projects that the council is undertaking with that Welsh Government funding.

I do welcome the fact that, as I said earlier, local authorities of different political leaderships are looking to invest in their town centres, looking to invest in their future. I look forward to working with whoever the electors choose to continue leading and running Carmarthenshire County Council on the work that I think we will find a consensus for, in Carmarthenshire and across each of the economic regions, where, of course, local authorities are pooling and sharing a range of their resources.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And finally, question 10, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

10. What discussions has the Minister had with partners to ensure that Wales does not lose out economically due to the levelling-up fund? OQ57823

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

As the Member will know, the UK Government has bypassed the Welsh Government and the Senedd on the way that this fund has operated in its pilot phase. It fails to address persistent regional inequalities across the UK as it is currently formed. I continue to have discussions with partners—not just Ministers within the Government, but outside of the Welsh Government—on how best to mitigate the disruption and substantial loss of overall funding, which includes, of course, the lost £1 billion that we will face over the next few years.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. A few weeks ago, I visited the new Spark centre in Cardiff University, and I encourage all Members to visit that new research centre. They stressed to me, prior to Brexit, the amount of funding they were receiving from the European Union. Universities Wales received almost £570 million since the turn of the century. In the context of Cardiff University, that had a huge impact and it's been crucial with regard to their research and their main ventures, which have subsequently provided a huge impetus towards the local economy in Cardiff and beyond. But they were very concerned with the levelling-up proposals affecting universities in Wales. Therefore, in this context—I appreciate what you said, that you as a Government have been completely bypassed—what discussions has the Minister had with the education Minister and also with the UK Government and universities to ensure that Welsh universities do not miss out because of the UK Government's levelling-up fund? Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The reality is that we may not be able to ensure that universities, and, indeed, the further education sector, who also were significant beneficiaries of European funds, don't lose out. That's because of the choice that has been made. It's a clear-sighted choice not to include the Welsh Government and not to meet the clear manifesto pledge to replace every single penny of former European funds.

You are right to point out the several hundred millions of pounds that have gone into the further and higher education sectors, and that's a challenge—at this point in time, we don't have the budgets to make up for all of that loss. That can't be right for Wales. Actually, if you think about any party before the last Senedd election we had about a year ago, no-one went into that election pledging to remove funding from research, development and innovation. In fact, we were all talking about what more we wanted to do, and the same, indeed, for skills. But it's a direct consequence of what's happening that we don't have the budget to carry on even at the same level in that overall picture as a result of European funding.

I've made choices to prioritise skills investment, and that means I'll be able to do less in other areas. And when you think about some of the positive headlines that have come from the way that the levelling-up department has announced recent initiatives, they talk about a rise in the percentage of allocation of money into research, development and innovation. The problem with that is that that rise that's been announced amounts to £9 million of extra funding; you have to net that off, though, against the £60 million that we have lost from EU funding. So, it's still a net loss to Wales of £51 million every year. It's all of those things that are adding up, and that is the very real challenge that we will face.

I hope that people will take up the call that was almost made by the Conservative spokesman on this issue, where he said, just a few short weeks ago in this Chamber, that Wales should not lose out and the manifesto pledge should be kept. I hope we can have clarity on the matter right across the Chamber to make the case for Wales, to make sure there is no missing billion in the next three years.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister.

Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on Luke Fletcher to ask his topical question to the Minister for Economy before we move on to item 2.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact the High Court decision relating to Baglan energy park will have on businesses? TQ611

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

My officials and I are considering the judgment, including the Welsh Government's position with regard to a possible appeal from the High Court judgment. The Welsh Government is very mindful of the stress and uncertainty that customers of the energy park have experienced. We will continue to work with all relevant parties to try to secure a solution that protects the environment, public health and jobs. I of course have issued a written statement on this issue yesterday after Mike Hedges's request in questions to the Trefnydd.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Weinidog. I'm sure you'll be glad to know that this is my last question to you today. Jonathan Ridd, a director in the energy park, has said that small firms at the park will now have to foot the cost of diesel generators in order to continue operating, stating that given rising fuel costs some businesses will likely be paying up to eight times more for energy. This in turn puts pressure on firms' finances, with some potentially having no option but to potentially downsize, putting jobs at risk if this goes ahead. Has the Government specifically looked at how they can help businesses with the additional potential cost, and what support is on standby for any worker who might find themselves without a job?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

If workers do find themselves without a job, we have a range of support measures that we can take and have taken in the past. What we're actually trying to do, though, in a range of the steps that we're taking is to try to avoid a significant loss of jobs as a result of the proposed action to cut off the power supplies. What the judgment did say was that all businesses will have their power maintained until at least 4 April. That isn't a long distance into the future, and that means that there is a real imperative for my officials and I to make choices about whether we're going to appeal the judgment or whether, indeed, that can be put off because of the judicial review proceedings that I have served upon the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy in the UK Government.

Yes, I am concerned, yes, I continue to work with my officials but also other partners including Neath Port Talbot Council and Dŵr Cymru, and yes, we're particularly concerned about the impact on jobs within the park. The challenge for this is, though, that if people do use diesel generators, it isn't just the cost to them—there is an environmental cost to that as well. This is an area that doesn't have great air quality, and significant use of diesel generators may be something that Natural Resources Wales would not be in a position to permit. We have a range of areas that we've asked the court to consider. As I say, I'll need to take further advice from my officials, including legal advice, and if there is to be any further action taken, I will, of course, update Members with another written statement.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

As mentioned by the Minister, I asked a question on this to the Trefnydd yesterday. Can I thank the Welsh Government for their very prompt action? I read the Minister's statement yesterday. I welcome the decision to serve proceedings via judicial review on BEIS. This has the potential to seriously affect the employment of people living in Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend, as you know yourself, Deputy Presiding Officer. The inaction of the Westminster Government is shocking. Is there anything further that the Welsh Government or firms on the site can do to ensure a continuity of supply?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We've worked really hard over nearly a year now to try to regularise the supply since the official receiver was appointed and since there was a real threat to the power supply. There's a reason why the Deputy Presiding Officer can't ask this question even though it's in his constituency, and I've been able to update him on a range of matters outside of the Chamber. The power supply affects businesses on the park; it also affects the power supply to pumping stations operated by Neath Port Talbot Council and Dŵr Cymru. Part of our challenge is that if those pumping stations fail and there's a storm event, as we're all used to seeing on a more regular basis, there are potentially significant consequences for businesses, residents, and what it would mean for the nearby estuary environment if there was a foul water escape. That environmental and human harm is avoidable. That's why we're taking the judicial review action—because it's our contention that the Secretary of State in the UK Government does have the power to direct the official receiver. It's worth noting that, in open court, the legal representatives for the official receiver appeared to concede that that was their view too. The challenge is whether the Secretary of State will exercise the power that we say he has or whether, actually, we will end up spending lots of public money on going through another course of legal action rather than acting on what I would see as the most proportionate and least costly way of avoiding the significant harm that really could be done to jobs, public health and the environment.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Minister, as you quite rightly pointed out in your written statement, there will be a very significant impact from the termination of the private wire energy supply to businesses and citizens in Baglan. In addition to the legal proceedings that have been launched by the Welsh Government, Dŵr Cymru and Neath Port Talbot Council, what else is being done to speed up the supply of energy to the site so that jobs can be secured and workers given the confidence they need to be reassured that the Welsh Government simply are not abandoning them in the mix of this situation?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think the tone of your closing remark undoes some of the more positive points that you were making earlier. The Welsh Government has absolutely not abandoned workers. I've agreed to spend several million pounds—I've outlined this in previous written statements the Member will have had the opportunity to read—to actually regularise the supply. It's not a statutory responsibility of the Welsh Government to do that, but my choice to do that was because of the direct impact on significant numbers of jobs on that park. But also, as I pointed out in response to Mike Hedges and in the regular conversations that the constituency Member has had with me, if the pumping stations fail, there is the real potential for really significant harms to residents and businesses and the wider environment. That's why we are paying for a new connection to be put in place. Our challenge is that, whilst the connection to those pumping stations is due to be maintained until 18 April, we don't have certainty that Western Power will have regularised a supply to those places by then. Who on earth would want to be in a position where a week after Easter there's a storm event, there's a power supply that is intermittent, and those pumping stations were not to work effectively? We have taken the action we have done up to this point. It's why we think it is the right thing for the Secretary of State for BEIS to exercise the power that we say he has to direct the official receiver to a different course of action, taking proper account of the direct and unavoidable impact of ceasing the power supply at that point. As I say, once I've taken further advice from my officials, I'd be happy to update Members further when I do have more to say.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 2, questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being and is to be asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to tackle mental health waiting lists in Wales? OQ57840

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

We are prioritising an additional £50 million, £75 million and £90 million ring-fenced funding for mental health for 2022‑23, 2023-24 and 2024-25 respectively. This is in addition to the £760 million invested annually in the local health board mental health ring fence, and will support the continued transformation of our mental health services to provide earlier intervention and to reduce the need for more specialist services.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Last year, I questioned you over the referral times in the Cardiff and Vale health board area, and in particular the woeful referral times of the 28-day assessment period, where Cardiff and Vale were only assessing a third of patients, as opposed to a Welsh average of two thirds of patients. Additional money has been made available by the Welsh Government—considerable additional money has been made available. Very often it's not just about the money, it's about how that's implemented. Can you update me as to what improvements patients within the Cardiff and Vale area have seen because of that money and, importantly, what are the latest up-to-date timings regarding referral times? Because a third in 28 days of patients presenting is just not good enough.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank the Member for that supplementary question? I share his concerns about the continued difficulties with waiting times in Cardiff and Vale. I have met Cardiff and Vale three times separately to discuss, in detail, their approach to managing their waiting times. I think it is important to recognise that they face particular challenges in Cardiff and Vale. Two thirds of children who are waiting in Wales are actually on the Cardiff and Vale waiting list for specialist child and adolescent mental health services, and also Cardiff and Vale University Health Board is dealing with a unique set of circumstances.

In November 2021 the health board reported a 27 per cent increase in referrals for primary care CAMHS, and 17 per cent in specialist CAMHS. I know from my discussions with Cardiff and Vale—and I absolutely agree with you that it's not just about money—they are carrying a lot of vacancies still and, despite their best efforts, are finding it very difficult to recruit to those vacancies. They are now looking at different options to fill those posts. I've also asked the NHS delivery unit to specifically look at Cardiff and Vale and to look at what support can be made available. We're also looking at what other support we can provide as a Welsh Government and as part of the service improvement funding that we'll be investing over the next three years. I've also made it clear to all health boards that I expect them to provide a detailed plan setting out how they will reduce waiting times.

I should also add that Cardiff and Vale are taking other steps to try and manage their waiting times, in terms of accessing a digital offer to bring down waiting times. They're investing in the third sector and looking at more support through training peer support workers. So, there is lots of work in train, but more to be done. But, just to assure the Member, I will be meeting with Cardiff and Vale again in the not-too-distant future and I'm continuing to have that dialogue with them about their waiting times.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. I'm very interested in your answer and I appreciate the interest you're taking in Cardiff and the Vale. Talking to my constituents, I find that far too many patients who are approaching their doctor because they've got low mood, loneliness or anxiety are offered a script rather than other talking therapies or other things, which just masks the problem and it can lead to long-term issues like agoraphobia. So, what is your strategy for increasing the number of people offered social prescribing to promote well-being, which would then free up the time of the mental health experts that we're having such difficulty recruiting to concentrate on those acute and enduring mental health problems?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you very much for that question, Jenny, and I'm very supportive of social prescribing as a way of linking people to community-based, non-clinical support, and regard such support as a really key part of our preventative agenda. You'll be aware that we have a programme for government commitment to have an all-Wales framework to support social prescribing. That framework is going to outline what best practice looks like in Wales, but very importantly is not going to dictate what is delivered in different communities, because there is already some excellent practice out there. My officials are currently engaging with a range of stakeholders on the proposed model, and that will be published then for formal consultation in May. And you'll be pleased to know that also, from April, our new health and social care regional integration fund is going to continue to support the social prescribing models that we know are so important.

Also, we're continuing to invest very heavily as a Government in lower level, tier 0 support, because, as you say, lots of people who seek referrals for their mental health don't actually need specialist support. So, we're continuing to invest in the call helpline. We're actually expanding—we've announced £7 million to expand the online cognitive behavioural therapy, SilverCloud, including expanding that to children. And we're looking at what more we can do with our increased funding over the next three years to actually boost that tier 0, lower level support to avoid difficulties escalating.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on accident and emergency waiting times in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr? OQ57827

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Hywel Dda health board is working at speed to ensure that people in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr have timely access to urgent and emergency care. We are supporting the health board through additional targeted funding to enable improvement in quality and timeliness of care at the A&E department at Glangwili.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

We're all aware, of course, of the huge pressures on our health service at the moment, but it strikes me that a situation that was already bad before the pandemic is now critical. I've had cases recently of one constituent having to wait in an ambulance for 10 hours outside Glangwili, another family, from Brynaman, having to wait seven hours for their child to see a doctor, and waiting for five hours is commonplace now. And we must bear in mind that, because of the geography of the area, people very often will have waited a very long time for an ambulance to arrive and then will have had to travel long distances to Glangwili in the first instance.

And, of course, we are aware that this is a problem across Wales at the moment. I'm looking at A&E live, and you have to wait up to nine hours in Wrexham Maelor and up to eight hours in Prince Charles Hospital. The first step in solving such a crisis, Minister, is to recognise that there is a crisis. Are you willing to accept that there is a crisis in terms of the ambulance service in Wales at the moment?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I don't accept that there's a crisis, but I do accept that there is huge pressure on the service at present. I've had another meeting with the chief executive of the ambulance service this morning, as I have regularly, because we are determined to improve the situation. Of course, the thing to remember is the fact that this is part of a whole system, and the fact is that, at present, there are 129 people in Hywel Dda who are ready to be discharged from hospital, but that's difficult because the situation in the care service is so challenging. And it's good that we're working together on solving that particular problem. But it isn't one that we can solve overnight. We have to remember that there are 118 people currently in hospitals in the Hywel Dda area who are suffering from COVID, and that brings additional pressure.

I'm pleased to say that the Welsh Government has been providing additional funding to assist the situation—£25 million. Hywel Dda will receive at least £1 million of this funding to develop centres for primary care. Also, I visited Glangwili recently, and I went to see that same-day emergency care unit. It's worth seeing that service, because what they're trying to do is ensure that people have another means of being seen the same day, rather than their having to go to A&E.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, the major hospital service in both Adam Price's constituency and my own, on the eastern border, is Glangwili hospital. And I'm sure you will agree with me that the A&E waiting times at this hospital are simply unacceptable. The latest figures available show that 46.5 per cent of patients are spending more than four hours in A&E before admission, transfer or discharge, and 16.5 per cent—a sixth of all patients—are spending more than 12 hours waiting, the worst in the whole of the Hywel Dda health board region. One of the contributing factors to these rates is the difficulties that hospitals are facing in discharging patients, with backlogs being seen all through the hospital journey—something that I know that the Health and Social Care Committee are currently looking into. With today marking the second anniversary of the nation being locked down due to COVID-19, it is important we recognise the enormous pressure that our healthcare professionals have been working under for the last 24 months and to thank the NHS staff for their service. But what actions are you as the Minister, and this Welsh Government, taking to address these worrying figures and improve the hospital experience for patients throughout Carmarthenshire?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Sam—thanks very much for that. And I'd like to join with you in thanking all of our NHS and, indeed, our care workers for the incredible work they've done over the past two years. And I think it is worth reflecting on the pressure that they've been under for that prolonged period.

Part of the issue that we have, of course, in Glangwili is actually the fact that we have trouble recruiting, and there is an over-reliance on agency and bank and overtime in terms of what happens in Glangwili. And that, of course, means that they have to pay more money, which pushes the health board into even more debt. So, all of those things are issues, and, of course, I guess that's one of the reasons why the health board is suggesting consolidating A&E into a new hospital, so that you can recruit easier. That is certainly something that they're suggesting and, obviously, that is something that my officials are working through at the moment.

I do think that there is a whole-system issue here. The fact that we have now introduced the real living wage, from April, and have established a bridge for those who are in the service already to get to that real living wage, with additional support, we hope will encourage people to stay in the service, so that we can get those people that you set out, who are in hospital, who shouldn't be there, who need to be discharged but there's nowhere for them to be discharged to because of the fragility of that system—. So, we do have to address that issue. We've started doing that through the real living wage. We have a care commission that I know Julie Morgan is working very closely with, but this is a whole-system issue and certainly something that I'll be bringing up with the chairs when I meet them tomorrow.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Morriston Hospital A&E is the main A&E centre for eastern Carmarthenshire, especially the Amman valley, as well as Neath Port Talbot and Swansea. A&E in Morriston is very busy and there are regularly several ambulances waiting outside. Does the Minister agree that we need to get those who are not accidents or emergencies seen by either their GP or a pharmacist, and can the Minister indicate what percentage of A&E patients are returned home either immediately after being seen or within 24 hours of being admitted?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Mike, and I absolutely agree that we do need to provide alternatives to A&E, which is one of the reasons why we've invested an additional £25 million and set out six priority actions that we expect health boards and the ambulance service to deliver on.

We're hoping that urgent primary care centres—there's £7 million earmarked for those—will provide a new model for service delivery. I know that Swansea is likely to get at least £0.5 million of this funding. And we're anxious to see more same-day emergency care services, and shortly we'll be publishing national guidance on that in order to improve patient flow.

But, on top of that, I am absolutely delighted to say, at last, we have a national 111 service where people can phone up for an alternative view before they go to A&E so that they can be sent to the appropriate service for them. Cardiff introduced their new 111 service on 16 March, and because of that now we will be able to promote that service as a national service that is available to everybody in Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I now call on the party spokespeople. First of all, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, on this second anniversary of COVID restrictions being introduced across Wales and across the UK, certainly on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, I think we can all agree across this Chamber—. I want to thank everyone who has kept us safe, and our thoughts are, of course, today particularly with the friends and families of those who have lost loved ones during the course of the pandemic.

Today is also a year and a day since your predecessor published the health and social care recovery plan. Can I ask, Minister, what progress you consider has been made since that recovery plan was published a year ago?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Russell, and I'd like to join you in thanking our health and care workers who have worked so diligently to keep us safe and to protect the people in their care over that very difficult period, but also to extend my sympathies to those who have lost loved ones in very difficult circumstances, where they weren't even able to give them the kind of send-offs that they may have wanted for them, to celebrate their lives.

The health and social care recovery plan is being implemented. It is part of a programme that is ongoing. Part of that has been the implementation of things like the real living wage, to make sure, and that's gone quicker that we'd hoped. That was set out within that health and care recovery plan. Also, you'll be aware that we set out some expectations for the service in terms of delivery. We'll be hardening up some of those expectations in the planned care recovery programme that we will be publishing in the next few weeks.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Minister, and I attach myself to the first part of your answer there.

In regard to the recovery plan, I noticed that Nick Bennett, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, today talks about NHS waiting times in Wales causing a public health crisis. So, it's certainly my view that we are a long way from even getting on to a recovery plan. And a recovery plan, to me, should be significantly about reducing the backlogs in our Welsh NHS, and that's not something you did address in your answer. When I mentioned this to you a couple of weeks ago, you talked about, 'We only saw an increase of 0.2 per cent in December for Welsh NHS waiting lists', but it's my view that we should not be celebrating that kind of—. Well, it's not an achievement at all. What we do need to do is absolutely focus on significantly reducing the waiting times backlog, and of course the Welsh NHS and health boards should be supported at every level to eat into those backlogs. And of course, behind every stat—. We talk about stats, don't we, Minister? I know you'll agree with me that behind every stat there are real people that are in pain waiting for months and for years for treatment, and I know that you'll find that unacceptable yourself. But this is about how we reduce those significant backlogs.

I understand, Minister, you've asked health boards to ensure that none of their patients are waiting more than two years by the end of February, just gone, and also waiting for more than a year for urgent outpatient appointments by the end of January, January just gone. So, can I ask you, Minister, have these targets been met, and what direct actions are you going to take to ensure that health boards and the health service are urgently reducing these shocking—and they are shocking—health times so that we are not in that public health crisis?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. I am extremely concerned about the backlog; it keeps me awake at night. The fact is that I'm spending most of my time these days trying to make sure that we have a very clear recovery plan. That planned care programme will, as I say, be published in the next couple of weeks. We're just trying to finalise the details on that.

Tomorrow, you'll be aware that new waiting lists will come out, those results. I've been absolutely clear and open and honest. I think it's really important that we manage expectations here. The fact is that we've just had an omicron variant that is now again increasing, and we're seeing more people in our hospitals at a time when, frankly, we were hoping we'd be able to really go at this with vigour.

We're just finalising and looking through the integrated medium term plan proposals from the health boards, where they set out what they hope to have as targets. We know that targets haven't been met. We're not the only country in the world that hasn't seen targets met. I don't think there's any country in the world that has met targets in the face of the COVID crisis. So, I don't think there are any surprises there. The challenge now is how do we get back on track. And part of what we're doing is to make sure that we've got the staffing in place to make sure we can address that backlog, particularly when we know that the staff at the moment are already exhausted. We published the fact that, actually, we've invested £0.25 billion in training new people, something that they missed out entirely from the English plan, and I think it's really important that we understand that we can't address this backlog without the right skills and the right people to help us out.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Minister. I would of course understand that you were put in a very difficult position when you became the health Minister, because your predecessor left the position in a very, very difficult state. We were in a difficult position well before we entered the pandemic, and I appreciate the difficult task that you've now got in front of you, Minister.

When I talked about targets being met, you referred to, 'No-one's meeting targets; targets aren't met around the world', but these are targets that you brought forward yourself—as I understand it, but correct me if I'm wrong—to health boards just in recent months, or certainly last year, to make sure that targets were met by January and February just gone, as I outlined. So, I think it's completely reasonable for me to ask have those targets been met and to understand the position in that regard.

You have talked about the new figures for waiting times coming out tomorrow, and I understand that's of course the case. As it stands at the moment, the last figures published show us nearly 50,000 patients in Wales are waiting over two years for treatment—over two years for treatment. And that figure is double—double—that of people waiting in the entirety of England, and England has a population 18 times the size of Wales. So, can I ask you—and this goes back to my earlier point about you being put in a very difficult position and we were in a difficult position before we entered the pandemic—can you explain how this utterly dire comparison ever came into being in the first place?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I can explain it. And first of all I'd like to correct you on something, and that is that actually we were working through that challenging backlog. In fact, we only had 9,000 people waiting for 36 weeks prior to the pandemic. And, yes, we set out some targets, but, actually, that was before delta hit us and before omicron hit us and before BA2 hit us. So, all of those things of course are going to throw out whatever plans that we had. We had to divert people to make sure that people had the booster in order to protect them. It makes perfect sense that, when you're confronted with that kind of situation, you change tack and you try and do the best you can under the circumstances.

And I can explain why our waiting lists are longer than in England. First of all, we include diagnostics and therapy in the way we count; we include follow-up appointments after diagnostic tests—again, not something they include in England. We count people if they are transferred between consultants and they start a new pathway. So, all of those are good reasons why actually we count in a far more honest way, I think—an open and transparent way—than they do in England.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Peredur Owen Griffiths on behalf of Plaid Cymru.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Deputy Minister, last month, Wales recorded its worst ever results for mental health provision for young people. Your own figures showed that 78 per cent of patients referred to specialist child and adolescent mental health services were left waiting for over four weeks for their first appointment. I hope you agree that that is unacceptable. I would like to hear what steps have been taken to improve matters. I'd also like to hear more about the commitment in the co-operation agreement on testing the sanctuary model. This would support young people in crisis or with an urgent mental health issue by providing community facilities run by trained third sector staff, with clear referral pathways into NHS services if needed. Diolch.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Peredur, for that question. And as I said in response to Andrew R.T. Davies, of course I'm concerned that we've got young people waiting longer than they should. I do think that the waiting times situation is distorted slightly by Cardiff and the Vale. As I said to Andrew, two thirds of the children who are waiting in Wales are actually on the waiting list in Cardiff and the Vale. But we are taking a wide range of steps to bring waiting times down. We've made it very clear to all health boards that we expect them to take action to reduce waiting times. We are backing that up with funding, for which we're expecting to see developed plans setting out how they will bring waiting times down. I think it's very important to recognise too, though, that lots of the young people who are referred to specialist mental health services won't actually need a specialist service, and that's why we're also investing in those lower level services so that we can intervene much more quickly. It would be really helpful if all Members could encourage their constituents who contact them to take advantage of that lower level support that is available, because, unfortunately and understandably, some families do see specialist CAMHS as the gold ticket, really, and we really want families to access the support earlier on. I should say as well that, as well as the steps that health boards are taking to reduce waiting times, they should all have measures in place to make sure that young people are triaged appropriately, so that, if young people's needs change, they will be seen more quickly.

You asked about the commitment in the Labour-Plaid Cymru co-operation agreement. As you've highlighted, that commitment is to test sanctuary provision for young people in Wales. We currently have sanctuary provision for adults, but none for young people, and the development of those models are very important as part of our crisis care pathway for children and young people. So, as part of the agreement, we will be taking forward those pilots in different parts of Wales, so that we can examine them. But I should be very clear as well that what we want is for young children and young people not to be reaching crisis point, and that's why we are investing so much money and also focusing so much effort on our whole system reform, so our whole-school approach to mental health, and there's been another £12 million for that announced just today. That links to the early help and enhanced support in our NEST/NYTH initiative. So, the numbers we expect to use the sanctuary provision will be small, and we should be aiming for them to be even smaller, because we don't want young people's difficulties escalating.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you for that response, Deputy Minister.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Very soon, Ukrainians will be arriving in Wales in significant numbers as the UK finally pulls its finger out and does its bit for refugees resulting from Putin's aggression. Understandably, many of these people fleeing their homeland will be traumatised as a result of what they have experienced in the last month, and will require specialist help to deal with what they have seen and experienced. There will be children fleeing Ukraine. Can you update the Senedd about the preparations that have been undertaken ahead of the arrival of Ukrainian refugees? These poor people have already been let down by the Tory Government due to the slow and abject response to the refugee crisis. I hope they will not be let down once again when they arrive on these shores. Diolch.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Peredur. We've all been horrified by what we are seeing, and the trauma that people are experiencing in Ukraine is unthinkable, really. I'm pleased that we are taking a different approach in Wales with our supersponsor programme, which will mean that, when Ukrainian refugees arrive in Wales, they will be linked up with appropriate services. We'll be making sure that they register with a GP, and they'll be able to access all mainstream health services. That will include mental health support. The health support for those arriving in Wales will be provided in line with the guidance that we issued in 2018 on the health and well-being of asylum seekers and refugees. I'm also pleased to report that we've already translated materials into Ukrainian and Russian to support the mental health of those arriving from Ukraine on initial stabilisation, which will be really important when people are traumatised. You can't expect people to come in and be ready to have therapy; they're going to have to be feeling safe and stabilised. So, that's been done, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists have also published specific support materials to help with stabilisation during the initial resettlement phase. We've also got our CALL mental health helpline—that's also available to support people arriving in Wales and their families, and CALL has access to something called Language Line, which means that, if somebody wants to access services through a language like Russian or Ukrainian, they'll be able to do so.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

3. How is the Welsh Government supporting cancer patients to receive the correct treatment? OQ57818

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cancer treatments should be provided in line with National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines. National optimal pathways have now been published in Wales across a range of cancer types. This means that expert clinicians have set out what should be delivered for different types of cancer, no matter where in Wales someone is diagnosed.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you very much, Minister, for your answer. I wrote to you back in September regarding access to cytoreductive surgery, and at the time you outlined that the reason why treatment wasn't routinely available in Wales was following the advice from NICE, as you've just pointed out in your answer to me. But, since that letter and your response, I'm sure you'll be aware of two high-profile cases across Wales, where one lady moved to England to receive the relevant surgery, and another took legal action in order to receive treatment after being refused twice for treatment in Wales. Now, as I understand it, the treatment is available to patients in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but only in exceptional circumstances in Wales. Of course, I hear your answer in terms of following the advice of NICE, but I would be grateful for your assessment of why there is a different approach in Wales, and why is it that cytoreductive surgery is being denied, or is certainly less routinely available, in Wales to Welsh patients who have peritoneal cancer, and I would ask you would you be willing to review the access to this type of treatment.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much. Well, I think it is important that we set out those national optimal pathways, and they have been developed for different tumour sites. And what we're trying to do is to make sure that we have value-based intervention. Of course, we have a unique approach in Wales, in the sense that we have a single, unified waiting time, which is different from the way they do it in England.

So, there are different kinds of cancers, and certainly when it comes to pancreatic cancer, for example, it's one of the six least survivable cancers. It is important that people understand that there are prescriptions, like pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy, which are available for all health boards in Wales, and they should apply that locally. So, where it is available, part of what we're trying to do is to disseminate awareness and produce materials to inform clinicians throughout Wales of the importance of prescribing the appropriate medicines. So, I hope that gives some clarification.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Question 4 [OQ57841] is withdrawn, so question 5, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I note Russell George's question just now. Minister, you'll be familiar with the case of my constituent, Maria Wallpott—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

No, can you ask the question first of all, please?

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Oh, forgive me, Dirprwy Lywydd. Forgive me for that.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

5. What are the principles the Welsh Government expects the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee to follow when making decisions about whether to provide treatment for rare cancers? OQ57851

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Forgive me, again, for not asking that.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We expect the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee to provide all treatments, including those for rare cancers, if they are recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence—NICE—or the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Now you can ask your supplementary.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch. Forgive me, Minister, it's because it's on a very similar—well, the same topic. You'll be familiar with the case of my constituent, Maria Wallpott. Earlier this year, she won her case in the High Court to be allowed potentially life-saving cancer treatment. The treatment would have been automatically available to patients elsewhere in the UK, but she was refused by a committee that is tasked with taking into account economic factors when deciding whether to approve treatments in Wales. Several similar cases have been raised with me; most recently, a constituent whose father has a cancer that needs treatment but was told that funding was, again, unavailable in Wales. Mrs Wallpott's case has shown that the decision to refuse that treatment was unlawful. Now, other patients are being refused cancer treatments that could save their lives, and I'm concerned that decisions are being made based on funding instead of on only clinical deliberations. So, Minister, could you tell me, again, in addition to what you've said already on this, why the situation is so different in Wales? And will the outcome of Maria Wallpott's case have any effect on how these decisions are made, please?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, the Member will understand that I can't comment on individual cases, but I am keen that WHSSC considers the finding of the judicial review and that they ensure that the individual patient funding requests policy is adopted fairly, consistently and equitably. So, whilst Welsh Ministers can generally direct local health boards in Wales as to the functions they exercise, responsibility for individual patient funding requests ultimately rests with LHBs and with health specialised services. We have intervened in the past to make sure that they speed up the handling of IPFRs by the NHS, and I'm pleased to say that we have seen good progress. But, of course, I am anxious that we learn from any case where judicial reviews have come against and worked against the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

As the Senedd will know, it is a sub-committee of WHSSC that holds delegated joint committee authority to consider and make decisions on requests to fund NHS healthcare for individual patients who fall outside the range of services and treatments that a health board has agreed to routinely provide. For us in north Wales, this has seen patients go to Manchester and Liverpool for cancer treatment, Oswestry for orthopaedic operations and Liverpool for heart treatment. When the national health service was founded, it could not have been envisaged that there would now be, with devolution, bureaucratic borders between treatments offered in the four corners of the United Kingdom. There are severe delays in access to treatment by requesting that the panel sees written evidence, a request form, other documentary evidence, and it is so complex, Minister. And for the Member that's muttering over there, during my first—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You have less time to ask the question, so focus on the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

During my first term in this Senedd and in the Health and Social Care Committee, concerns were raised about these delays and this complex bureaucracy around WHSSC. Could you, Minister, have a look at reviewing the bureaucratic delays on treatments? And will you liaise with all Welsh health boards to ensure that they do have agreements in place with health boards elsewhere in the UK that provide treatments that we do not, and just make it more of a seamless way of going about things? Because I have many, many constituents now in Aberconwy who are really caught up in the bureaucracy of all this. Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks. Well, I think that it's fair to say that there have been issues in the past, and I think that we've made good progress since 2016. The fact is that the total number of IPFR requests is decreasing, while the proportion of those approved is increasing. So, those are the facts. So, things are definitely improving. I do think that it's fair to say—. Look, we're never going to have a situation where highly, highly specialised medicine, that you can do all of that within the confines of Wales. Frankly, if you have a very, very rare condition, then wouldn't you want to go to the best place possible in order to get that sorted? And if that's in England, so be it. That's fine. So, I think that we've just got to be realistic about getting the best care for individuals within Wales. Certainly, of course we want to try to get those treatments done as quickly as possible, but I do think that the situation has improved quite dramatically since 2016.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

6. Will the Minister provide an update on the north Denbighshire community hospital? OQ57839

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The full business case for the Royal Alexandra Hospital scheme has been received by the Welsh Government. I will make a final decision on the scheme, and the health board and local Members of the Senedd will be informed as soon as that decision is made.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. My constituents have been promised this improvement to community health for years and years—nearly for a decade now. You keep telling us, time and time again, that the restoration of the Royal Alex is always just around the corner, without a spade going in the ground or anything tangible for the residents of Rhyl and Prestatyn to see. When I raise this issue with the Welsh Government, they pin the delays on Betsi, and then Betsi lay the blame at the door of the Welsh Government. My constituents don't care who is to blame. They just want clear answers and their services up and running. Minister, how will you work with the local health board to remove any road blocks and ensure that the north Denbighshire community hospital is delivered in the shortest possible time frame? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much, Gareth. You'll be aware that the restraints on our capital funding are very real, not just for the next coming year, but also for the three years after that. I think that it's probably worth also pointing out that the initial costs of the scheme were estimated to be £22 million—

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

They've doubled in that time.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

—and then the outline business case, when that was produced, that increased to £51 million, and now the full business case is £72 million. So, we are in a very different situation from when the proposal was initially put before us, but obviously, I will let you know once that decision has been made.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

7. What is the Welsh Government doing to help residents in Alyn and Deeside access an NHS dentist? OQ57849

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We are working on system reform in dentistry and moving forward collaboratively with the reform programme in 2022. This includes working with practices to improve access, experience and quality of dental care.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog, for the answer there. The First Minister explained just yesterday the challenges that we're facing in dentistry at the moment in Wales and across the United Kingdom. But residents in Alyn and Deeside are very much feeling the pinch of those challenges, and they are coming to me, as their directly elected Member of the Senedd, because they are struggling to see an NHS dentist. Will you commit today, Minister, to your officials speaking with not only the practices but also the health board, to work out a route-map to ensure that everyone who wants to see and needs to see a dentist in Alyn and Deeside can access an NHS dentist in Alyn and Deeside?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much, Jack. You'll be aware that there is real pressure on dental services, partly because of COVID and the fact that that aerosol spray really means that the spread of COVID is more likely. Recovery is happening, but obviously that is very difficult and very slow, and I acknowledge that there are areas where it's more difficult to access dental care than others.

I will be speaking and meeting with the health board chairs tomorrow, and the chief executives, and this is certainly something that I've very much got on the agenda, and I'll be making sure that they address this issue in their integrated medium-term plan proposals.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I have relatives in Flintshire who themselves have struggled to access an NHS dentist, who thankfully recently received treatment after weeks in great pain. We know that, in January, Betsi Cadwaladr insisted that action is needed to address dentistry in north Wales, after 83 dental posts were lost in Wales during the year, and the British Dental Association warned that significant numbers of dentists were planning on leaving the NHS, saying that NHS dentistry is hanging by a thread because without NHS dentists there would be no NHS dentistry. And earlier this month, Bupa Dental Care handed in notice of termination for their Flint branch, adjacent to Alyn and Deeside. It's 16 years since the North Wales Regional Committee raised concerns about a forthcoming NHS dental crisis in Wales, and here we are, all these years later, in these circumstances.

So, what action will the Welsh Government now take to engage with the British Dental Association to address their concerns with the dentistry contracts, that these reduce focus on regular check-ups, force dentists to choose between old and new patients, and fund dentists by 15 per cent less than six years ago?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thanks very much. We're continuing to work with the British Dental Association to explore how the reform of the national dental contract can encourage dental practices to collaborate at a local level. I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear, in relation to Bupa in Flint, that the health board plans to recommission replacement services in the area as early as possible.

It is probably worth emphasising that we have provided an additional £3 million this financial year, and what we're seeing is, actually, dentists are not picking up that money. We're putting the money on the table, but they would rather work in their private practices, and that's a very difficult challenge for us, but we are making a longer term commitment: £2 million additional funding recurrently to support increased provision. We've also given almost £0.5 million to health boards to support dental practices to provide NHS services and to install new ventilation equipment. So, we're doing all we can. At some point—. There's more we can do. There's always more that we can do, and certainly that's one of the reasons why I have got this as one of my key points on the agenda to discuss with the health boards tomorrow.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Question 8 [OQ57838] is withdrawn, so, finally, question 9, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support unpaid carers in north Wales? OQ57831

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Today I announced a £500 payment for over 57,000 unpaid carers across Wales who are in receipt of carers allowance. Also, unpaid carers in north Wales continue to benefit from the additional £10 million we allocated for a range of carer support services in 2021-22, including £3 million for respite.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I thank the Deputy Minister for her response, and if only every question I asked had such a quick resolution in terms of support, and giving those unpaid carers that £500. But, in all seriousness, this payment clearly recognises the incredible role that unpaid carers have played through the pandemic and I'm sure it is welcomed by all.

If I may, though, I'd like to ask you about the restoration of services for carers as well, though. So, as we know, unpaid carers save the NHS and taxpayers billions of pounds a year by providing this important care. But despite nearly all COVID-19 restrictions easing, the services unpaid carers rely on have not been prioritised, with services still significantly reduced or even closed entirely. And recent research by Carers Wales found that just 8 per cent of carers say that day services and care homes for respite breaks have been fully reopened, and only 16 per cent said sitting services were fully operational. So, what action will you take to urgently prioritise and monitor the restoration of these much needed services for carers? Thank you.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you very much for that question, and thank you for your recognition of the importance of the £500 payment to the carers who will be eligible for it. I think that the point you raised is very important, because we know that unpaid carers did manage, in some cases, through the whole of the pandemic without having any additional support at all. In fact, some of them didn't take any support, because they were so anxious to look after their loved ones. I have been approached by a number of Members of the Senedd about their concern about the lack of the quick recommencing of the local services.

I'm very well aware of this situation, as are the officials, and we have approached the local authorities, in particular local authorities where we've been alerted to the fact that carers are aware that the services they used have not been reopened, particularly day services, and have urged them to do so. I'm aware that many of them have still not opened, so the officials have regular meetings with the directors of social services and we'll be continuing to urge them to reopen. I think we understand that local authorities and the staff have had a very tough time and many of them were redeployed to help carry out some of the essential services that have been needed during this period, but we do know, of course, that the support for unpaid carers is absolutely essential. The Welsh Government is trying to build in as much support as it possibly can with the hardship fund and with respite funding. It is crucial that we do get those services up and running again, so I can assure the Member that I will be redoubling my efforts to try and encourage local authorities to open those services. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister and the Deputy Ministers.

3. Topical Questions

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We move on now to the second topical question this afternoon, and I call on Mark Isherwood to ask the question.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the progress being made to accommodate Ukrainian refugees in Wales? TQ610

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Significant progress has been made to prepare to receive people fleeing the war in Ukraine so that they can seek sanctuary and safety in Wales. The UK Homes for Ukraine scheme is now open and the Welsh Government supersponsor route will be live from Friday.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I thank the Minister for ringing me on Monday on the train to brief me on this, and I also note the update issued by the Welsh Government this morning, which states that they continue to work closely with local authorities, the NHS, other public services and the third sector to ensure support is available for people fleeing the conflict and arriving in Wales through the Homes for Ukraine scheme.

As you say, the Welsh Government will become a supersponsor under this scheme. On 13 March, the First Ministers of Wales and Scotland sent a joint letter to the UK Government proposing the Welsh and Scottish Governments as the overall supersponsors for the schemes in Wales and Scotland. However, although the UK Government launched the Homes for Ukraine portal on 18 March, whereby an organisation could be selected as a sponsor, when the option is selected, the only listed organisation still is the Scottish Government. Although you've stated that the Welsh Government will also be able to sponsor people directly and people arriving via this route will be directed to one of the welcome centres being set up across Wales before going on to medium and long-term accommodation, why does the Welsh Government still not appear as a sponsor option on the Homes for Ukraine portal, and can the Minister outline if and when people will be able to select the Welsh Government as a sponsor option on this?

Further, what support can you provide to people like the Flintshire constituent whose wife went to Poland to bring back her Ukrainian mum—thankfully successfully, and she's now in Flintshire—but who has been told that they can't access the cash card for refugees because of a lack of information and funds, that the £350 rehome scheme doesn't apply to his mum-in-law, that she can't access pension credits until she has a full visa, which will take two months, and that she can't register with their GP, despite having health issues? I fully appreciate some of those are reserved matters for the UK Government and some are the responsibility of the Welsh Government, but given your overall role as a supersponsor, I'd be grateful for your response.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for the questions, Mark Isherwood. As I've said and as has been made very clear in the information that we've provided on our bespoke page on the Welsh Government website about what we're doing to support Ukrainian refugees, we are due to become a supersponsor under the UK Government's Homes for Ukraine scheme this Friday. We wanted to make sure we were ready and able and prepared for that, to go live, and that, of course, is going to happen on Friday. But actually, we've been ready over the last weeks, certainly last weekend when the UK Government scheme went live, in case people came to us and needed us. We were ready and we had accommodation available. But the full scheme, as a supersponsor, with all the preparedness that has had to take place, commences on Friday.

I think it's important just for colleagues and for Members to know that this will initially involve up to 1,000 people actually skipping the need to identify a UK-based sponsor, and instead being sponsored directly by the Welsh Government. We won't be selecting those eligible to apply; people fleeing Ukraine will be able to select the Welsh Government from the system until our initial cap of refugees is met. As you know, we're opening welcome centres across Wales—and they are all across Wales—to ensure that all of those we're directly sponsoring can receive a high-quality welcome and are directly supported from the moment they arrive. And then, from the welcome centres, people will be moved into longer term accommodation across Wales.

There's a huge amount of work, 24/7, by local authorities, by our officials in the Welsh Government, the NHS and the third sector. I've had a really important meeting today with a range of Ukrainian community support, including the north Wales link that you drew to our attention, Mark, and many groups and Ukrainian voices who are going to actually also respond and help in the ways that were raised in terms of supporting children and young people in earlier questions to Lynne Neagle. So, it is all in place and it's all going to operate from Friday throughout Wales. It's going to be crucial that they just can come direct. The Welsh Government scheme will enable them to come direct to us for that support.

On the second question, the points you raised are reserved matters, but we can make representations on behalf of you and constituents to the UK Government. We're working very closely with the UK Government, clearly, in terms of all Ukrainian refugees who come to us. If it's the Homes for Ukraine scheme, and that direct matching, obviously, we are going to get the data from the UK Government to ensure that we can get everything in place. Can I just say one point that is important in terms of the arrangements? Quite a few people are coming through the family visa route. That might be the route, in fact, that your constituent has mentioned. We don't actually know yet—we've asked the Home Office—how many are coming through that route, but I suspect that may be where your constituent has come through. So, it is very valuable to have from Members today some of their experiences in terms of what is happening to them and to their constituents.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Minister, the University of New Europe, a collective of academics from across Europe and the US, has published a comprehensive document that contains emergency contact details and funding opportunities for scholars, students, artists, cultural workers, journalists, lawyers and human rights activists fleeing Ukraine, Russia and Belarus. As we accommodate and welcome refugees fleeing the crisis and its effects in Ukraine, our universities, educational and cultural institutions have the chance to offer a breadth of opportunity and support for those coming to Wales. Providing this would help refugees settle in and feel involved in their communities, as well, of course, as enhancing the diversity in thought at our universities and among our academic and cultural networks. Would the Government consider co-ordinating a response from our universities and cultural institutions so a similar guide and system of support could be provided? How is the Minister currently working with our universities and cultural institutions to provide support and opportunity to refugees, and will the Government provide financial support for this response?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. It's really important that you've drawn attention to yet another inspiring network that is working across Europe, and I would be grateful for those contacts so that we can make links with them. Our universities are rising up to the challenge. Many of them already have links with Ukrainian students, Ukrainian universities, and those links are actually being forged now. Indeed, just in terms of across universities in Wales, I think you'll find pretty much every one of the main universities is already linking up. And then we bring all of the universities together. So, they are looking to how they can, themselves, link with their own partnerships with Ukrainian universities, but also what they could offer to other young people and, indeed, families coming through.

I do think, also, that your point about the cultural institutions of Wales is very important. This is a cross-Government response. You can see from the answers in terms of health and social services, from housing, that all departments of the Welsh Government are engaged in this, but particularly the cultural institutions. This will also be the offer, the welcome, that we're giving to Ukrainian refugees as they come to Wales. We have a welcome pack that's being developed. I think it was interesting, when I met with many of those from, for example, Voice of Ukraine Wales, how they've got resources. Also the children's commissioner is linking up with the Ukrainian children's commissioner; we met with her today. There are lots of educational resources that have been brought together as well. But I think in terms of the cultural and higher education institutions and the ways in which we can bring their links together and when Ukrainian refugees arrive, this is part of the welcome offer to them as they come and we support them here in Wales.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The generosity of spirit demonstrated by people in Wales, across the United Kingdom and across our European continent contrasts quite disappointedly with the mean-spirited approach from the United Kingdom Government. Minister, what impact will the Nationality and Borders Bill have on our ability to reach out to Ukrainian families? You will be aware that yesterday Tory MPs in the House of Commons voted to impose a potential four-year prison sentence on any Ukrainian refugee who arrives in the United Kingdom without having the right papers. At the same time, the Nationality and Borders Bill rips up the international convention on refugees, which was written in the aftermath of the second world war and led by the British Government. What we've got in London is a Government turning its back on the human impact of war, and a Government that is more concerned with its own propaganda on its own right wing than reaching out and taking care of families who've been affected by war. What will we do, as a Welsh Government, to demonstrate that here in Wales the nation of sanctuary isn't simply a rhetoric but a reality?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much for that very topical question, Alun Davies. The First Minister has reported in past weeks that, when he wrote to the Prime Minister at the end of February, making sure that we were offering to play our part in terms of being a nation of sanctuary and being very clear about our position in terms of Putin's aggression, he did actually take the opportunity, in his correspondence, to emphasise that the Welsh Government believed that the UK Government should reconsider the proposals in the Nationality and Borders Bill, which we believe creates a two-tier system between asylum seekers depending on their route of entering into the UK. We quite clearly made that point to the Prime Minister. So, we have to recognise the point that Alun Davies makes today. It was, in fact, the UK shadow Home Secretary who said yesterday in the debate that the Nationality and Borders Bill will make it a criminal offence, as you say, for Ukrainian families to arrive in the UK without the right papers, with a penalty of up to four years in prison, at a time when the British people have made it clear that we need to help Ukrainian refugees. This is deeply shameful—those were her words. But we here in Wales, as a nation of sanctuary, want to provide a quick, safe and warm welcome to Ukrainians in Wales. I do believe that our supersponsor route, which we're working on alongside our Scottish colleagues, will eliminate a key bottleneck in the UK system. That's crucial to ensure that those coming to Wales don't need to already know a household in Wales who can sponsor them.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item this afternoon is the 90-second statements and, first of all, we have Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch. Llywydd and Members of the Senedd, during a visit to the Great Orme Bronze Age copper mines in Llandudno on Friday, I was absolutely amazed to learn how, 4,000 years ago, copper and copper axes made there were exported from Llandudno to places as far away as the Netherlands, Sweden and Poland. Uncovered in 1987, during a scheme to landscape an area of the Great Orme, the copper mines' discovery changed the way that we understand, in ancient Britain, a civilised and structured society 2,000 years before the Roman invasion existed. Our town's most famous headland provided almost 98 per cent of the metal in Britain and was home to the largest prehistoric copper mines in the world.

It's also worth noting that this mine had some of the harshest of conditions, with the belief that very small children would have to crawl through the very tunnels that I saw just to retrieve the malachite green copper. I hope that the Senedd will agree with me that it is incredible that metal from Aberconwy armed the armies of the ancients, and that the constituency, and therefore north Wales, had a key role in connecting people across our continent thousands of years ago. This incredible story really does highlight the unique history we have in Wales. The team at the Bronze Age mines should be extremely proud of the incredible contribution they have made to the story of Wales, Britain and Europe. And as Llandudno welcomes, on average, 10 million visitors every year, I hope each and every one of you will visit this constituency, where you can learn more about our fascinating history. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Today in the Senedd I wanted to highlight the fantastic work of a mental health support group called the Walking Men of Mid Wales, and the group does exactly what it says. And the group was set up by Andy Coppin and is run each week by a number of volunteers. And it was set up in a bid to support those who were struggling with anxiety or isolation, but also as a mechanism just to allow men to meet and talk with each other as well and become friends with each other. The group was set up as a result of, sadly, a number of men taking—younger men taking—their own lives across the area. The group meets on a fortnightly basis in Welshpool, in Newtown, and the walk routes are planned in advance, and men walk around together, chatting and talking and sharing their experiences of life and their own life experiences, as well, in order to support each other. I've been on the walks myself, and it's encouraging to see the walks growing in numbers week by week. So, I'd like to thank Andy for setting up the group and for his commitment and dedication and his passion, but also I'd like to encourage others to get involved in setting up an initiative in their area as well. It's such a simple initiative but a great initiative, just facilitating men gathering together and walking and talking and sharing life experiences with each other.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Religious buildings

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Right. We'll move on now to the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, on religious buildings, and I call on Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I would like to thank my co-sponsors and those who supported the motion for this debate. Jane Dodds will be responding to the debate.

This debate is not about religion, it's about our built heritage. It's about the importance of church and chapel buildings in our community. Members cannot have failed to notice the continuing closure of religious buildings, including churches and chapels, in their own constituencies. In recent decades, we have seen a gradual and continual decline in what can be referred to as the two great traditions of the nineteenth and early twentieth-century Welsh society: that being the tradition of attending the local chapel and the local public house.

Wales is often considered the land of castles, but we have substantially more chapels, churches and other religious buildings across Wales than we have castles. We have some great church buildings and chapels, such as St David's cathedral and Tabernacle chapel in Morriston, which has been described as the cathedral of nonconformity, as well as many others of historical significance and architectural merit. Wales’s ecclesiastical history and heritage is an incredibly significant part of our built and cultural heritage. Many who do not attend the chapels or churches of Wales attach a huge significance to their architectural merit and the status they carry within their communities. Ask someone about St David's, and they will mention the cathedral. Ask people about Morriston, and the most likely response will be Tabernacle chapel.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

As you look around Wales, it is obvious that, in this day and age, Wales now has a huge excess of chapels and churches for its current religious needs. What we have seen in response to this overprovision is the closure of many, in an attempt to not only save money, but also to save some of the really magnificent buildings of the same denomination.

The upkeep of these remarkable buildings has fallen on the shoulders of the remaining members of the congregation, most of whom vary from the elderly to the very elderly. As one deacon said to me, 'We inherited this chapel from our parents, but our children do not want to inherit it from us.' The same deacon said, 'What I like most about going to chapel is that it's the only place where I, as someone over 60, am considered one of the young members.' The congregations are declining, and you have got to remember how many chapels there still are. According to Blwyddiadur Undeb yr Annibynwyr, there are over 600 independent chapels in Wales and four independent Welsh chapels in England, but that number will almost certainly continue to decline.

We have witnessed former chapels being sympathetically adapted or converted for a number of different uses, ranging from flats, which are the most common, to houses, businesses, restaurants, offices, community centres, and, in some cases, converted to places of worship for other religions. Unfortunately, others have become derelict, burned down, or have fallen down. One notable example of a former Swansea chapel that has been sympathetically adapted is the chapel of Christmas Evans, which now hosts the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Swansea offices, but they allow people to visit and see its plaque commemorating Christmas Evans. It is amazing how many people visit, despite the fact it is not advertised, you have to engage in substantial research to find out where it is, and, after having done that, you have to arrange with the NSPCC to visit.

There are people, such as Daniel James—better known as Gwyrosydd—the composer of 'Calon Lân', buried at Mynyddbach chapel, and Evan Roberts, the preacher who led the great revival from Moriah chapel in Loughor. These were just two of the great preachers and hymn writers from Wales. I could fill the whole speech going through famous Welsh hymn writers and—[Interruption.] More worryingly, I might start mentioning relatives of other Members in here. [Laughter.]

But, as I say, most of the smaller chapels and churches have been sympathetically changed into housing or offices. Within Swansea East, concentrating on Morriston, where I live, and Plasmarl, where I was born, I will take you through the position of the chapels and churches. Philadelphia chapel in Morriston, a former Methodist chapel, has been converted into offices and flats. Calfaria chapel, Soar chapel and Seion merged to form Seion Newydd, which I attend. Calfaria chapel has fallen down. All you can actually see where Calfaria chapel was is stones on the ground, and that was a chapel in use up until 50 years ago. And now all you've got is stones on the ground, at the top of Banwell Street in Morriston.

Soar has become a part of the Catholic Church, and is used as a centre for small concerts and events. St John's church, known locally as the church in the middle of the road—it's the only building on the roundabout—is undergoing renovation to become a cafe, gallery and commercial unit on the ground floor and mezzanine floor, with three loft-style flats above it. I used to describe it as the only Welsh-speaking Church in Wales church, but I've apparently been told there are others. But it's one of the very few Welsh-speaking Church in Wales churches in Wales. It's a phenomenal building, but it's been left for 10, 15 years; it's now coming back into use. Grove mission has been turned into flats.

Most of the other chapels have been sympathetically turned into flats or houses, or, in the case of one, turned into a care home for people with learning difficulties. Some of these renovations, such as Grove mission, have been excellent, leaving the outer facade and sympathetically remodelling inside. Mynyddbach chapel has been restored after several years of being empty, and is now the Daniel James Gwyrosydd centre. Both the church in Bonymaen and the church in Portmead have been turned into Faith in Families centres, and are doing an excellent job working with parents and children. And can I just say what a good job Faith in Families do in my constituency?

This is where the good news ends. Horeb chapel in Morriston was demolished, and a housing association built flats on the site. St Paul’s church in Landore has been empty for several years. It is a large church, and whilst there have been several suggestions of use, nothing has happened. Libanus chapel in Cwmbwrla, after being empty for several years, burned down, and was partially demolished on the grounds of safety. It has two walls currently left standing, which of course Cadw still list. Cwm chapel, which was also the scene of a fire, has been demolished, despite being listed by Cadw. Aenon in Heol Las has closed, with no imminent plans for it coming back into an alternative use. The same is true of Bethania in Morriston town centre. Moriah chapel, where my father-in-law was the only remaining deacon, closed, has been sold several times and has planning permission for conversion into flats, but no development has taken place.

There are far more chapels and church buildings than there are people wanting to use them for worship. It takes us to what happens next. Now it is mainly the larger churches and chapels that remain. They cannot easily be converted into flats or offices as the smaller ones were. Most are listed, including Tabernacle in Morriston, which is a grade I listed building. The smaller churches and chapels, they've closed. There's no problem. The easy low-lying fruit, the easy changes, that's actually happened. And can I just I say, there's generally been a good job done? Not everywhere, but, in general, a good job done.

The action I am asking that the Welsh Government works on with the different denominations in Wales is to discuss the future of these buildings. Cadw listing buildings is not the answer, and sometimes it's part of the problem, in that you cannot make changes to the building, it will sit there until it falls down or is burned down, and far too many buildings end up being burned down when they're left empty for long periods of time.

Wales has a huge reputation for its preachers, church and chapel buildings, which is something we need to build on. I think we need to look at the American tourism market; we need to produce denominational tours in Wales. It's not just America, but countries in east Asia, such as Singapore. We have got the situation where New Siloh in Landore, one of the largest nineteenth century chapels, used to sit over 1,000 people, but they were a lot thinner in those days—[Laughter.]—so now it only sits about 600. But it has been taken over by a church in Singapore. Prior to being taken over, it had a congregation of seven, but it only had that large congregation because two chapels had merged into it to give it five and two to give it seven.

So, the question is: should we in Wales be aiming at the American tourist market? Should we be aiming some of our tourism advertising to promote our great religious history, its people and its buildings? I think there is a huge opportunity to promote tourism relating to our chapels, churches and the great preachers and hymn writers. This is an opportunity that we in Wales need to take before it is too late. We can save some. It is not possible to save them all. I urge the Welsh Government to talk to the different denominations and produce a strategy for the churches and chapels of Wales.

Firstly, we need a priority list. Secondly, we need a plan of how buildings can be used in the future—offices, flats and houses are all possible. This will work, as I have illustrated earlier. Turning them into community buildings must be an option. This will need financial support and community buy-in. What we cannot do is leave a large number of elderly people as the sole guardians of our heritage. We protect the castles of our Norman conquerors; we should do the same for the major chapels of what was for many of us our grandparents and great grandparents a place of worship and a major community centre. If this motion is passed and the Government does nothing, or it fails to pass, what will happen is that more and more of these buildings will close. More will become derelict, and a large part of our history will be lost. Now is the time for action. In 10 years’ time it will be too late for many of these buildings.

Can I also ask for a national museum for our religious history? We've got a wool museum, an industrial and maritime museum, we've got a slate museum. I just think that we ought to be having a museum to carry on and show our religious history, because, although it's been a living history for many of us, in 50 years' time, it won't be the living history for the people then. So, please can I urge the Government to think of that? And if they're looking for a site, can I throw in Tabernacle?

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, and first I'd like to put on record my thanks to Mike Hedges for submitting this extremely important Member's debate on religious buildings, and also my thanks to Darren Millar, Jane Dodds and Rhys ab Owen for co-submitting. I'd also like to highlight my register of interests—I'm a trustee of a church as well.

It's a pleasure, of course, to be called as a supporter to this motion and to speak here today. As the motion states, it's extremely concerning that we continue to see the closure of religious buildings up and down Wales, and I'm sure all Members here today will agree that faith is an important aspect of Welsh life. Religious buildings are often the heart of communities, and, at times, bring all parts of our community together. Even for non-believers, faith is what many people reach out to in times of need, and it's often these buildings that symbolise the importance of this faith and the support that faith has to offer.

As someone who has been brought up through church, as the son of a church minister, I know that, whilst these buildings are merely structures to hold the church, the significance is beyond bricks and mortar—it's what they represent. It's these buildings that so often hold important family and community memories of celebration, memories of grief, and every emotion in between. It's these buildings that so often have been the gathering place through generations, the support in dark times and good times, and I argue they'll need to be in place for future generations too.

But, sadly, as we know, and mentioned by Mike Hedges already, the future of many buildings of religion and of faith across Wales is not secure. And it's also sadly the case in my own region of North Wales, with many important buildings having an uncertain future. For example, St Mary's cathedral in Wrexham, a grade ll listed building, is currently facing a worrying time with the cathedral hall needing a full refurbishment and the heating system needing to be replaced. Also coming to mind is Llanrhychwyn church in the beautiful Conwy valley, which many people claim is the oldest church in Wales, although I'm sure Mike Hedges may argue with that for a place somewhere in his patch, but that dates back to the sixth century originally.

I mention this because these buildings aren't just important for our faith here and now, they're important to highlight our history and they are our nation's landmarks as well. The amount of history in these places is spectacular, telling the story of a significant part of our lives and culture here in Wales. It's important that people can continue to use these buildings and understand our culture and history in the future as well.

So, as point 2 of today's motion states, now is the time for Welsh Government to work with all denominations in Wales to discuss the future of religious buildings, and most importantly ensure they're here to stay for our future generations. I want to thank all Members for submitting this really important debate and I call on the Welsh Government and Members across the political spectrum today to support today's motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

And thank you very much to my friend and colleague Mike Hedges for tabling this debate. Where else in the world would we have a debate like this? Well, perhaps in Chubut state assembly. It's lovely, isn't it? It's quintessentially Welsh to have this kind of debate on the chapels of Wales. Mike Hedges and myself might be Members of different political parties, but we have a great deal in common, and one of those things is that we're both members of the Baptist Union of Wales. I welcome you to cheer that point.

One name given to chapels in the past was 'tŷ cwrdd', which literally means meeting house—that's where the community came together. And without being too sentimental about it, very often, it was the few pennies saved by the people that built our chapels, from Salem Rhydcymerau in the constituency of my friend Mabon ap Gwynfor, which was immortalised by Curnow Vosper and Endaf Emlyn, to Morriston's Tabernacle, the cathedral of Welsh non-conformity, as Mike Hedges often reminds us.

The truth about our nation’s chapels is the wonderful poem by Williams Parry about the hall in Mynytho:

'It is built of poverty;—not stones / but love is its masonry; / shared aspirations are its timber; and shared commitment is what raised it up.'

As a carpenter in the Rhondda—Buffy Williams—in the final decades of the nineteenth century, my great grandfather worked on a number of chapels, including his own chapel, namely Noddfa Treorchy. This chapel held over 1,500 people—more even than Morriston's Tabernacle, Mike—and during a visit in the late 1970s Penri Jones, the author of Jabas and the editor of Lol, said this about Noddfa Treorchy: 'The chapel is as a sporting arena and the pulpit as a stage.' Visiting the vestry, he said that there were better facilities in that vestry than in many modern schools. It was here that the composer John Hughes played the organ. And it was the first meeting place of the world-famous Treorchy male voice choir.

But, for a number of reasons—be they social, political and economic—the congregation at Noddfa, like many other chapels, declined. Penri Jones ends his visit by saying: 'There was once joy here, but there must have been some catastrophic neglect to cause it all to disappear with such finality.' The prophet's words came true, because within a few years, within five years, indeed, Noddfa was burnt to the ground. It all disappeared in such a final way, as Penri Jones foresaw, all of the resources, the community and musical resource, had gone.

Huw T. Edwards, the Labour trade unionist who was described as Wales's unofficial Prime Minister, said,

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

'I want to see at least seventy-five per cent of the places of worship in Wales pulled down or used in a more effective way.'

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Well, I agree, to some extent, with Huw T. Edwards. We need to use these buildings in a much more effective way. But I also agree with the other Huw Edwards, and what debate on chapels could we have without the BBC's Huw? He said this:

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Places of worship have made an immeasurable contribution to Welsh life: they taught thousands of children to read and write; they fostered the strongest possible sense of community; they provided an essential platform for Welsh culture; they often campaigned for workers' rights and provided welfare services when government offered next to nothing.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Two years ago, the doors of all places—

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Will the Member give way?

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Of course.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Rhys, and I am enjoying listening to your speech here, but isn't it a fact that Sunday school itself—we're talking about the education of young people through chapels, myself going to Sunday school—is another form of education, which I think is incredibly important? Do you agree that Sunday school is an important part of these chapels as well?

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Yes, certainly, I agree, Sam, 100 per cent.

Two years ago, all of the places of worship closed their doors due to COVID, and for many of them their doors never reopened. I can think of three examples in the Cynon Valley: Siloa Aberdare, the place where a fiery public meeting was held to protest against the betrayal of the blue books, the venue for the first meeting to discuss establishing Y Wladfa, and the location of the organ on which the beautiful hymn 'Rhys' was composed; the Welsh chapel in Hirwaun, where Jennie Eirian and Eirian Davies started their married lives, and where, according to Penri Jones, the Sunday school members could quote the poet Gwenallt and Karl Marx in one sentence; Bethesda Abercwmboi, where the author Kate Roberts established the first Plaid Cymru branch outside Caernarfonshire in 1925, and the chapel provided practical support during the general strike in 1926 and also the miners' strike in the 1980s. All closed during COVID.

The situation is complex, as Gethin Matthews says in his Barn article, because of the title deeds of chapels and also charity law. And, I'll finish with this, acting Llywydd, where there is a will there is a way. In north Pembrokeshire, we see the latest campaign by Councillor Cris Tomos and others has ensured that Brynmyrnach chapel has been added to the number of local community assets there, such as the Tafarn Sinc—one of my favourite pubs, Mike. The intention is to open a heritage centre there and provide two flats for local people in the old chapel. These places are important, not just to our heritage and not just architecturally, but they're important as locations that belong to the community and to the people themselves. Therefore, it's an honour to support my colleague Mike Hedges' motion. Thank you very much.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

It's five minutes, actually, not six. I call Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

It's a real privilege to join this debate and to follow such strong and powerful contributions to this, a Parliament, which in itself forms a part of a continuum of our history. We talk about our chapels and our churches, but we can also talk about our synagogues, mosques and temples, a part of the tapestry of who we are. And when I think about our religious history, I also, like others here today, think about our social history, our cultural history. The nation that was born in the shadow of Rome and built chapels that exist today, like St Govan's, is as important as perhaps St David's is more recognisable.

And, then, as the nation took on its political identity, Mike Hedges spoke about the competition, if you like, or near warfare in some cases, between chapels and pubs at the beginning of the last century. And when I read about the social history of Tredegar, there was that stirring conflict if you like. The temperance movement was born of our chapels and the trade union movement tried to ride two horses, and I'm not sure how successful it always was at different times. But it is a part of who we are, because we can all talk about these things. But there's no other country in the world that would have built Soar y Mynydd where it was built and stands today—I think one of the most evocative places in our country. But we can all talk about our local chapel and our local places.

Members here will know that I've lost both my parents over the last few years, and reading through some of the papers of my local chapel, Ebenezer, Sirhowy, what you see in the minutes of the chapel is a history, a social history of Sirhowy and a social history of Tredegar, and the place of the Welsh language. The debate: should we have our services in the Welsh or the English languages? They decided, first of all, certainly, that they would preach in English but pray in Welsh. If there isn't a metaphor for Wales and for Tredegar, that probably is it.

But this also stretches back and informs who we are today. When Griffith Jones introduced his circulating schools, he didn't just preach the Bible, but he ended illiteracy; he created a literate nation in the medium of Welsh, and that led to reaching out again and creating a different cultural experience. And Evan Roberts, competing in 1905 with the Welsh Rugby Union for who should be remembered as the winner in 1905. The revival led to an explosion in an identity that was built upon our chapels. And what we did there, of course, was to create a very different Wales, because the Wales that had existed before was the Wales of somewhere like St Martin's in Cwmyoy. I think it's one of the most beautiful churches in the country, and those of you who know it, up in the hills above Abergavenny, will know that you walk through that crooked nave and you look at how the geology and the geography of that place have created a church in use today, but somewhere that is uniquely Welsh and also a unique and beautiful place, and a very evocative place. But we read through our churches and our chapels and our religious buildings our history of our country.

I agree with the points made by Mike Hedges in introducing this debate, and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to those. She will know that the heritage centre that is being built in Merthyr, from the synagogue, speaks about the history of the Jewish community in the south Wales Valleys. And I think we still have to come to terms with parts of our history, and certainly the anti-Jewish riots in Tredegar at the beginning of the last century are something that we haven't come to terms with yet today. I think, in the way that we protect the bricks and mortar, what we have to do is to translate that into the present as well and into who we are as a people and who we want to be as a nation.

I would also seek to ask the Minister how she believes that the Historic Environment (Wales) Act that was passed by this place, I think, back in 2016 can be used to provide protection for these places, because until we have protected these places, we literally will not have the bricks upon which we can build this future. So, we have, in this debate this afternoon, stretched our minds back to the shadow of the Roman empire, where we built our nation, and where that nation was forged, both in the industrial revolution and all the other parts of our history that we are familiar with, but also in the chapels and the churches. What happened there was not that a Government created a people, but that a people created a culture.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I'd like to thank my fellow Members for bringing this item to debate. As many here already know, I'm disheartened to see so many historical buildings across Wales being abandoned and then, consequently, torn down and demolished to be replaced by newer, nondescript buildings that do not contribute to the identity of an area. Removing buildings such as former churches and chapels ultimately changes our urban landscape, and, in my mind, is having a negative effect on the way we relate and identify ourselves with the place we live. Moreover, we are losing our tangible connection to our own history. Whilst museums do provide appropriate examples, as we develop our urban areas, we risk eroding the identity of our communities.

Personally, and as has already been said, religious buildings are very much a part of our community, and they have provided a place of security and hope for generations of people through some of the most troubling times of our nation's history. As we remove our places of worship, we are unintentionally signalling that our loss of religiosity is a good thing, which in my mind is a sad state of affairs, because it normalises the view that our spirituality and connection to a higher power are no longer relevant.

In my home village of Llantwit Fardre, the Bethesda Calvinistic Methodist chapel and the green corrugated iron St Andrew's church are now but distant memories. I'll never forget Trinity Calvinistic Methodist chapel and the impact that it had on me when I drove around the corner one day to see the building that had been in my community since 1913 was, without warning to the rest of us in the village, just a pile of bricks on the ground. All of these buildings contributed to the history of my village and shaped it in one way or another, and now I fear that the next generation and people moving into the area will see my home village as just one massive housing estate without a history or distinct identity of its own.

I believe that, whilst communities may have moved away from worshipping in these buildings, and so their original use has faded, we should not be so ready to allow their destruction, because there's no doubt in my mind that communities still want and would welcome them being saved and repurposed, still serving the community in the spirit in which they were built. I would also argue that organisations that own these religious buildings would welcome their reuse rather than their demolition and would be willing to offer their help and services to do so in one way or another. With this in mind, I want to emphasise that as a nation that recognises the importance of the well-being of our communities, we need to do more to help them repurpose these religious and other historic buildings. Recently, I met with a housing association concerning their plans to demolish an old school in my region, and one of the reasons why they're doing this instead of renovating it is because of the building's poor energy efficiency and the lack of financial support to do anything to improve it. Given this and the unprecedented need to build an energy-efficient future, we need to provide a more suitable level of public resource for communities, agencies and religious groups to upgrade the energy efficiency of these buildings and to help them meet decarbonisation targets.

Finally, as has already been mentioned, I think that given the value of religious buildings to the community and their potential value to tourism, such as pilgrimage routes and historic trails, we should be providing clear evidence and support that communities can repurpose or rejuvenate their religious buildings and enable them to continue to serve their communities before any more are lost. Thank you, acting Llywydd, and I would urge my fellow Members to support this motion. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I wasn't going to speak in this debate originally, but Mike got in touch and inspired me to think about how important religious buildings have been to my family, so I did want to say a word or two.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I remember a priest writing a little snippet in a parish newsletter, and it said, 'The church is not a museum for saints, but a hospital for sinners.' That's always stuck with me—that these religious buildings we have in Wales were constructed not just to the glory of their God, but as a balm for the congregation, a place of solace, worship and peace. These buildings are to be found on nearly every street in Valleys towns, as in the old joke that each village in Wales will have the chapel you go to as well as all the chapels you don't go to, though more and more these days, they're the chapels very few attend.

These buildings—the point has been made—are more than masonry; they're cathedrals of our collective memory, our connection to our past. There's a church in Partrishow with a fifteenth-century rood screen. In the churchyard a cross marks the place where Gerallt Gymro preached the third crusade. When you stand there, you can imagine that you hear the words. The synagogue in Merthyr shows the tell-tale fairytale architectural tenets of nearby Cyfarthfa castle and Castell Coch, a building that reflects our more recent history and the face it gives to the world. If buildings like this were lost, how much of our history would be buried with them? Only the foundations remain of Abaty Ystrad Fflur, where legend has it Dafydd ap Gwilym was laid to rest. Of Abaty Cwm Hir, nothing remains almost at all. Too many grand, illustrious spaces call to mind the Harri Webb line that 'nettles grow on the altar where the saints fasted and the pilgrims prayed.'

These buildings are not only important to our past. They play a central role in community life as hubs for coffee mornings, bazaars, collection points, foodbanks. Throughout COVID-19, chapels, churches, synagogues, mosques, gurdwaras and temples have been used for outreach, connecting members of the community, organising food runs, Zoom choirs, buddy schemes. They offer a lifeline for residents of all faiths and none. I'd love to see more religious buildings getting support, getting guaranteed funding so that they can keep their doors open and heating on. I know the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales has written to Members ahead of today's debate to point out that funding, be it from the National Lottery or the cultural recovery fund, will vary year on year, and less funding is available in Wales as compared with England.

Lots of dioceses and lots of congregations do rely on donations from the people who go and are associated with their congregations, and this will be true of all faiths. But, because of the pandemic, fewer people attend services or mass or prayer. They aren't there to put the money in the basket. What more certainty can the Government, I wonder, give to religious communities in Wales that their buildings can be not just protected, but strengthened and supported? Because I'd repeat again that they are not just monuments to the divine, but a living testament to the goodwill of residents in our communities—those of all religions, those without any religion, those who come together to support people who need it, to provide solace to strangers and, to those needing it, peace.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

Diolch, Mike, for bringing this debate forward. They say that nothing in life is certain but death and taxes. Well, I can tell the Chamber today that nothing is certain but death, taxes and churches and chapels in Rhondda. You can't drive from Cymmer up to Treherbert or from Trehafod up to Maerdy without passing a church or a chapel. I've had many a conversation with Rhys ab Owen about the cymanfas held in Rhondda and the old Noddfa Baptist church in Treorchy, and that's because, during the industrial revolution, churches and chapels were pillars of working class communities and were a fundamental part of our forefathers' lives. Some remain staples of our communities today, but we've seen a significant decline in active churches and chapels, with very many either sold or left derelict.

Growing up, I used to attend Llanfair church before it made way for housing. Whether you're religious or not, attending these religious buildings gives you a sense of family and belonging. They stand as community hubs, and I'm sure Members in the Chamber will agree with me that our community groups and charities play a vital role for those who most need support in our communities. From mental health and well-being support, through social prescribing, and providing free meals for families and our older generations, to volunteering and work opportunities on the doorstep for our young people, community groups and charities provide such essential services, but the future of many, unfortunately, hangs in the balance due to the uncertainty of rent arrangements. We need to take away that barrier and help these community groups and charities obtain permanent homes. I don't see why religious buildings can't provide this home for them.

There are two examples in Rhondda of churches that have now become more than religious buildings. In Penrhys, Sharon works hard with an army of volunteers to meet the needs of the families living in her community. Residents on the estate will tell you that, without the church and without Sharon, life would be far more difficult for them. We also have Ynys y Werin St Anne's Community, who are working tirelessly to raise money to buy St Anne's church for the community. St Anne's church is a beautiful building and the building is very, very lucky to have such a passionate group fighting for it. I can see just from the empty churches and chapels in Rhondda, and the two examples I have just mentioned in Penrhys and Ynyshir, the positive difference Mike's proposals could make in communities right across Wales. I will be supporting today's motion.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

And finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, acting Llywydd, and thank you very much to Mike Hedges for bringing forward this debate. I've very much enjoyed it, so far, anyway, and I want to limit my contribution. But it's a very timely debate, especially as we consider, some of you who will remember last summer, the discussion in Dwyfor Meirionydd about Capel Tom Nefyn in Pistyll, with the community there trying to save that chapel for community benefit, but, ultimately, the chapel was bought and is going to be developed as a holiday home. So, we have to look at community needs with regard to these resources.

It's a debate that's important to me too on several fronts. First of all, I'm a son of a minister, and have attended several different chapels over the course of my life. I'm also a lay preacher, or I was before being elected, and it's sad to say that the last three chapels at which I gave a sermon have closed. I don't know if that's a reflection on me or the lack of congregation there. Those chapels are now empty, although one has been turned into offices.

I also have a family interest in this issue. My uncle, Dewi-Prys Thomas, was a renowned architect and he championed the chapels of Wales. Scholars from outside Wales have constantly argued that there is no such thing as Welsh vernacular architecture, but Dewi-Prys Thomas disagreed. He argued that the small chapels of Wales were a clear and perfect example of Welsh folk architecture, with the chapel being the heart of the community, drawing people together. So, there is architectural value for these buildings.

Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I am the son of a minister, like you. Would you agree with me that one of the best ways of moving things forward would be to have multidenominational meetings to bring local communities together?

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I agree. Peredur has made an important point there. There are chapels empty, so why shouldn't the denominations come together to make use of a chapel that's only used part time at the moment? That's an important point from Peredur.

But we mustn't forget too that these buildings weren’t constructed solely for religious purposes, but deliberately as community assets, as has been mentioned by Rhys. Indeed, if you read the articles of establishment for a few of these chapels, they mention religious purposes, but also political and social purposes specifically, with large political meetings, very often, held in these chapels, with assemblies and concerts too. They were buildings that were focal points for the community, and they were multipurpose buildings, so it’s right that we discuss how to take on these buildings and repurpose them for alternative uses today.

Thank you very much to Mike for the debate, and I very much hope that the motion will be accepted unopposed. Thank you.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Can I thank Members of the Senedd for bringing forward this really important debate on the issue of closure of religious buildings throughout Wales, and for the passion with which all of you have spoken on the issue—an issue that I think is of concern to all of us? Because we all have these buildings, don’t we, in our constituencies. Alun Davies referred to the synagogue in Merthyr Tydfil, which is going to be repurposed to become the Welsh Jewish heritage centre for the whole of Wales. I think about Capel Aberfan, which is now standing empty, and the importance to that community in the immediate aftermath of the disaster in Aberfan.

Places of worship are absolutely embedded in the heritage of every community in Wales, and to hear Rhys ab Owen, Joel James, Delyth Jewell, Buffy Williams and Mabon ap Gwynfor all talking so passionately and inspirationally about examples from their own lives and their own constituencies was wonderful to hear, because collectively they contain more history than perhaps any other type of building that we see every day. There are no less than 3,000 places of worship listed in Wales, a powerful acknowledgement of both their architectural and historic significance. Many have not met the criteria for statutory listing at a national level, but they are of course still very important at a local level.

The community connections that have sustained all of those buildings over centuries are sadly wearing very thin in many areas. I absolutely agree that it is vital for Welsh Government to work with different denominations to discuss the future of these buildings. I'm pleased to report that my officials in Cadw are doing just that. It's also vital that we are imaginative and work with a range of other partners to find a sustainable future for these precious buildings that restores them to their place at the heart of our communities.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

And I'd like to start by perhaps giving a few good examples of where this approach has been successful and then briefly explain how Welsh Government is currently working with partners at a strategic level to address some of these shared concerns. So, there are, for example, conversion schemes that respond to the social value of religious buildings, with new uses that deliver community benefit. And Welsh Government has invested heavily in some of these, including the library in Hanbury chapel in Bargoed. The Transforming Towns programme supports projects that develop underused or empty properties, including several former places of worship. And I particularly commend the commitment of Circus Eruption, a youth charity, which has taken on the former St Luke's church in Cwmbwrla in Swansea. They work mostly with young people, including refugees, asylum seekers, young carers and the disabled, and they want this historic building to be a place for everyone. As a charity with no previous experience of heritage, they also want to inspire other charities to see that heritage buildings create opportunity.

The Faith in Affordable Housing programme of Housing Justice Cymru is working in partnership with a number of Welsh housing associations to release surplus land or buildings for affordable housing. The organisation is currently working with the Architectural Heritage Fund on a pilot project focused on the conversion of historic redundant chapels.

Places of worship are also being encouraged to investigate ways in which they can open their doors for community use, alongside their original purpose. An important exemplar, which I'm sure Mike Hedges is aware of, is the Morriston Tabernacle, where ancillary spaces will be adapted for community use, leaving the glorious chapel interior intact and in use. Now, while opening the doors to meet local community needs is important, it won't necessarily provide sufficient income to help keep the roof on. However, places of worship can reach out to a much wider community to help sustain those buildings. For instance, there's a growing interest in faith tourism, and we're beginning to see some imaginative new ideas to realise its potential, including bookable experiences and themed trails promoted by Visit Wales and the National Churches Trust.

In exceptional cases, redundant religious buildings may be maintained largely unaltered by trusts specifically set up for that purpose. And there are two trusts that operate nationally in Wales. There is Friends of Friendless Churches, which rescues and repairs redundant Church in Wales churches and keeps their doors open, and it currently has some 28 churches, mostly in rural areas. Then there's Addoldai Cymru, which was established to care for a small number of the best nonconformist chapels across Wales, and it currently looks after 10 chapels. Both organisations receive annual grant support from Welsh Government to continue their work.

So, adaptation for new uses that respond to the full significance of religious buildings, the introduction of additional uses that help to sustain a building, reaching out to a variety of new communities and new interests or vesting in trust are just some of the ways in which our religious buildings may be given a future. But all of them depend on people—to care for the buildings, to open the doors, to welcome visitors, to deliver a community service. They show the overarching importance of sparking new connections between buildings and their communities, recognising that these buildings belong to us all. So, I'm encouraged that there is much already going on to try to tackle this issue, and I would like this activity to be more widely shared and celebrated.

Now, Members may be aware that, in 2015, the Welsh Government, through Cadw, published a strategic action plan for places of worship in Wales. The focus of the plan was on people and communities using, enjoying and looking after historic places of worship, and foremost of its actions was setting up a places of worship forum to share information and best practice and review ongoing needs. The forum attracted representation from across the sector and for several years used its meetings as an opportunity to learn from a range of projects across Wales. These physical meetings were, of course, halted by the pandemic, but the forum took the opportunity to reflect on its direction and is now in the process of establishing itself on a new footing. Supported by a grant from Welsh Government, again through Cadw, the National Churches Trust is organising a series of forum events to undertake a formal review of its work and of the strategic plan. And in addition, they are using online webinar meetings to reach their grass roots. Three such meetings have already been held, bringing together speakers to offer professional advice, with passionate voices from communities across Wales talking about their own experiences. The two most recent events focused on community engagement and fundraising. Later this month, the next event will consider the environment and responses to climate change.

But I am very taken with Mike Hedges's suggestion that we could explore the possibility of such an empty church building, or chapel building, being used as a national museum for religion. I think that this is something that this forum could look at as an opportunity to see what possibilities might open up for some of these empty buildings.

Now, I'm under no illusion about the scale of the challenge. But when I survey the initiatives that are already under way, and I see the energy and the commitment that's dedicated to meeting this challenge, I believe that many of the elements that will help us re-establish the vital link between buildings and community are already in place. It is that link that will give our historic places of worship faith in their future.

So, I am happy to support the motion and agree that we need to work with the various denominations to secure a future for these buildings. Of course, we will need to work with other partners, but I hope that I have explained that we are seeking to do just that.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I now call on Jane Dodds to reply to the debate.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Where else would you hear from the sons of two ministers, in Sam Rowlands and Mabon ap Gwynfor, the mention, specifically, of 48 chapels and churches and other religious buildings, and two brilliant sayings, one from Alun Davies—I loved that—that he heard about people preaching in English and praying in Welsh, and also, from Delyth Jewell, that churches and chapels are not museums for saints, but hospitals for sinners?

We've had a fantastic debate this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi i gyd—thank you very much to you all. We heard from Sam Rowlands how important faith is to us in our communities, and that religious buildings are at the heart of our communities. They're not just historic landmarks, but we need to use them, because they are here to stay.

We heard from Rhys as well around the range of uses for our chapels. They are places of historical and political debate, they are places where we have cymanfa ganus, where our brilliant hymn-writers started—we heard many of those names come forward—choirs, where education is—and Samuel Kurz also highlighted the importance of Sunday schools—we've got welfare services running out of them, debating halls, places where politicians started.

Then we heard from Alun Davies how they are part of our social and cultural tapestry, and how important that is, really. But they're not just part of our social and cultural tapestry. They are part of our future as well.

We heard from Joel James how important chapels and churches are, and that possibly the disappearance of them might erode our identity. They must bring security and hope to us all. They must be saved and repurposed, and they actually need help also to decarbonise and to become greener.

Delyth Jewell, thank you very much—diolch yn fawr iawn. It's important to hear how those chapels are important to you, and that we need certainty for these buildings. They need to be protected. They are living testimony and places where we can find our peace.

From Mabon we heard how important it is for chapels to be held as chapels, and the example that he gave in his own community of one being converted into a holiday home. We heard as well about his previous role as a preacher, and we really—. I would have loved to have heard you preach, Mabon. But the chapel is the centre of our community. They are community assets. That's what you said, Mabon, and how important that is.

And we heard from Buffy Williams as well about the chapels in her community in the Rhondda, which were actually bringing hope, bringing things alive in her community, and how that was giving, actually, the people in her community something different and positive.

Thank you, Minister, for your response, and to hear about the plans that are ongoing, the strategic action plan we know about, looking at the places of worship forum—and we do look forward to hearing more about that after its pause after COVID—and the National Churches Trust as well and what they're doing. But we must move on, as you've said, and you're under no illusion, but working together we surely have to see a way of finding our feet in terms of supporting chapels and churches and other religious buildings, because, as we've heard, they are actually now at the heart of our community and they're providing hope. They're providing different experiences to those communities, places where older people go, the lonely go, people who need help and support, but also places where we can sing and enjoy ourselves.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

Great to hear as well, Minister, that you're willing to consider Mike Hedges's suggestion around how we have a museum of churches, how we can have a walking trail, a travel trail, of churches and chapels across Wales. And I do hope that we'll be able to move forward on those suggestions. I would like to thank Mike Hedges for introducing this debate today. It's made us really come alive in the Senedd, and, although I'm not there, I can really feel the warmth and the love that many of you have, and I'm sure that's shared across the Siambr, for many of these religious buildings and churches and chapels. We've all been in them. We've all had times of sadness. We've all had times of happiness as well. Let us make sure that we keep those at the heart of our community. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee Report: 'A new direction for HGV Drivers—Addressing HGV drivers shortages and related supply chain Issues'

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item is the debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report: 'A new direction for HGV Drivers'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion tabled in my name.

Dirprwy Lywydd, if Members cast their minds back to last autumn, they will remember the supply chain issues that were affecting our lives: certain shops running out of specific products, some petrol forecourts running dry, and emergency efforts by the Welsh and UK Governments to intervene and support our vital supply chains. The committee decided to hold an inquiry into these supply chain issues and have published a report, 'A New Direction for HGV Drivers: Addressing HGV drivers shortages and related supply chain issues'.

Now, during our inquiry we found the issues that lead to the supply chain breakdowns were numerous and complex. They included the pandemic, new trading arrangements following our exit from the EU, and even global events such as the ship, the Ever Given, blocking the Suez canal. However, a key reason for the disruption was a shortage of HGV drivers.

HGV drivers are the backbone of our logistics network and, as we saw last year, several issues came together to cause a shortage of drivers. The committee heard that, pre pandemic, there was a shortage of between 60,000 to 100,000 drivers in the UK. This historic shortfall was one of the key issues that had led to the acute driver shortage. However, Logistics UK made it clear that the combination of the end of EU membership and the end of the EU transition period, along with the COVID pandemic, transformed this shortage into an acute crisis. These issues were then compounded further when HGV driving tests were paused during the pandemic, causing a backlog and a 10-week wait for an examination.

And so the industry faced a perfect storm in 2020-21, when several issues coalesced at the same time. The committee decided to focus on those issues, as ensuring Wales has enough HGV drivers will be vital if we want to keep supply chains open and avoid similar breakdowns in the future. Our inquiry was short and focused. The committee took evidence from a number of organisations, including hauliers, business owners and trade unions. We also engaged directly with current and former HGV drivers, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who gave evidence to the inquiry.

The feedback we received from the engagement with drivers was very powerful and enlightening. I won't repeat exactly what some of the participants said, for fear of being ejected from this Chamber. However, it's clear that there are several issues with the current experience of being a HGV driver. A lot of the themes that shone through from the drivers were echoed, though in more parliamentary language, by other stakeholders.

Now, the report makes 11 recommendations around improving the training and working conditions of HGV drivers. The committee looks to the Welsh Government's forthcoming logistics and freight plan as an opportunity to implement these. And I will briefly go over some of the recommendations shortly. The committee believes that if these recommendations are met, then this will improve the experience of being a HGV driver and create a more attractive career option for those currently in, and those thinking of entering, the profession, thus attracting new, and retaining existing drivers in the industry.

The committee recommends improving driver training and continuous professional development in order to bring new entrants into the industry and to help the career progression of those already driving. The Welsh Government must work with industry to build on existing apprenticeship programmes and increase access to new drivers.

One of the key areas of concern raised by drivers was the overall experience of driving a HGV. They talked about poor-quality rest stops with bad but expensive food, dirty facilities and often a lack of security. One of the most worrying pieces of evidence we heard was that drivers view assault and robbery as an occupational hazard, which is totally unacceptable. One driver told us that, and I quote,

'You can’t sleep properly when you're worried about being robbed. Every little noise wakes you up. Nobody wants to drive tired.'

Another driver told us, and I quote again:

'I’ve been robbed over 10 times. It’s a horrible thing to admit but you expect it. The last time they slashed three holes in the curtain big enough to drive a vehicle through, half my load was on the layby ready to be stolen. Even the police see it as an occupational hazard. As drivers we just accept it.'

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, HGV drivers shouldn't have to just accept it. The Welsh Government must quickly work with their partners to improve rest facilities for drivers and ensure that those facilities are as safe as possible. This should include surveying existing provision, filling gaps where they exist and working to develop a voluntary standards system so that drivers can easily find out the quality and security level of a rest stop.

As mentioned earlier, the Welsh Government’s transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', contains a commitment to create a new logistics and freight plan. Considering the pressing shortage of drivers, the committee feels that the new plan should be prioritised.

Now, I am pleased to say that the Welsh Government have accepted all the recommendations in our report. However, I am concerned that the most pressing recommendations, for example, the survey of rest stops and work to fill gaps in provision, will be implemented as part of the logistics and freight plan, which is only due to be completed by 2024. I urge the Government to prioritise these areas of the plan and, if possible, push these elements of work forwards before 2024. This is absolutely vital.

Last month, I received a letter from the organisation Displaced People in Action, who informed me that many of the Afghan people who arrived in Wales last year have experience driving large vehicles and would be interested in careers as HGV drivers. I have written to the relevant Ministers regarding this and I look forward to a response in due course. Whilst the situation with the arrivals of refugees from Ukraine is still developing, it may be pertinent for the Government to think about extending anything offered to arrivals from Afghanistan to people who arrive from Ukraine as well.

From keeping food on our shelves to delivering essential medical supplies, it is fair to say that HGV drivers were some of the unsung heroes of the pandemic. The implementation of this report's recommendations would improve driver experience and entry into the industry. Whilst the issues we experienced before Christmas have been largely resolved, supply chains are still creaking and we do live in turbulent times. It is not possible to predict if and when another shock will hit our global supply chains. This means that it is exceptionally important that we concentrate on shoring up parts of the system we have control over.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

As a member of the economy committee, I'd like to start by echoing the thanks of our Chair, Paul Davies, to all those who took part in or supported our inquiry. It's a really important subject, at its core investigating something that touches the lives of all citizens in Wales on a daily basis, that is, how goods and products get on our shelves in our communities, and how we treat those people who play a crucial role in transporting those goods, how we make sure that they are valued and supported and can access appropriate facilities during those oh-so-precious moments of rest; important for their well-being, but also for their safety and the safety of others.

For my contribution to today's debate, I want to draw out three strands of our work that strike me as especially important. Firstly, recommendation 1 around training and apprenticeships: I recognise the Welsh Government's comments in their response that their ability to intervene in this specific policy area, in this specific issue, is limited due to responsibilities being reserved. However, as their response goes on to note, this recommendation chimes with Welsh Government policy around skills and of course the headline apprenticeship pledge for this Senedd term.

A number of interventions such as the personal learning account, ReAct, and logistics apprenticeships were mentioned in the Welsh Government's response, and I'd be keen to know from the Deputy Minister how Welsh Government is drawing attention to these courses for people who work in or are interested in working in the sector. Publicising these opportunities is so important if we are going to address that 50,000 shortfall in driver numbers.

Similarly, recommendations 7 and 8 are largely reserved matters, but where the central issues at their core align with Welsh Government priorities around the fair work agenda, and I'd really welcome further detail on how the Welsh Government is engaging with relevant trade unions to lobby UK Ministers, so that the aspirations shared between the committee and Welsh Ministers can be met.

I also want to briefly consider recommendations 3 to 5, all dealing with the provision of adequate rest stops. These recommendations are, I feel, key to this piece of work. As the committee heard, discomfort caused by inadequate rest facilities or even a complete absence is one of the biggest push factors encouraging HGV drivers to leave the industry.

I want to briefly illustrate my point by referring to one of my childhood heroes, and that is the feminist icon, Long Distance Clara. Those who recall Pigeon Street may remember Long Distance Clara was the stereotype-smashing, juggernaut-driving long-distance lorry driver who could drive pole to pole, east to west; nowhere was too far for Clara. However, her success was perhaps built on the hot dinner of which she could be sure at her journey's end. And the important role she played, the distances she could be expected to travel, were made bearable by moments of rest and relaxation that could be incorporated into her journey.

The point is a serious one, because the drivers who gave evidence to us raised a litany of concerns about the lack of safe places to park. When there were places to park, facilities could be substandard and not fit for purpose. We were told about broken showers, broken tiles and dirty wash facilities and the Road Haulage Association spoke of stops not even having toilets. And then, perhaps most seriously of all, these facilities were not safe, with—as our Chair has mentioned—witnesses saying that they'd been robbed up to 10 times. This is simply not good enough.

I'm pleased that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendations. However, I'd welcome any additional information that could be given around timescales to deliver these improvements, so that HGV drivers can access safe facilities that are fit for purpose, and we can remove that particular barrier that is having such an impact. Thank you.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I'd like to begin by thanking my colleague and committee Chair, the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, for his excellent chairmanship throughout this inquiry. I would also like to thank the committee clerks and staff for their support.

I believe this, the committee's first report, is incredibly strong. I recall during our committee's brainstorming future-work-programme meetings that the HGV driver shortage was raised as supermarkets, filling stations and other supply chains were being squeezed due to the shortage of drivers. The idea of holding a short, sharp and snappy inquiry into this matter arose from the immediate pressures being felt and our desire to learn what the Welsh Government can do to help recruit and retain these valuable drivers.

The evidence gathered was hugely valuable, and I'm grateful to those who contributed, especially those HGV drivers who have offered their vital first-hand evidence and experience about the situation on the ground. We shouldn't underestimate the importance of key witness accounts, as their words carry so much value. It was these HGV drivers that kept the country moving throughout the pandemic. They helped keep shelves stocked, and they are the ones that have the best grasp over the situation that this report seeks to depict. The document identifies the key issues facing HGV drivers in Wales. It also provides practical and deliverable recommendations that I would encourage the Government to seriously consider.

Turning to the report itself, the Chair rightly highlights the impact of leaving the European Union and the COVID-19 pandemic that followed. However, the conditions in which these drivers operated existed long before either of these two events occurred. A pre-existing chronic shortage of HGV drivers amplified these acute and unprecedented events, which were critical factors in the subsequent supply chain issues that followed.

There are 11 recommendations that the Welsh Government can implement to safeguard the future of Wales's supply chain. I want to use my contribution today to focus solely on the experience of our HGV drivers, an important factor should we want to make this sector as lucrative and appealing as possible to the next generation of drivers. One of the HGV drivers who gave evidence about the experience of drivers said, and I quote:

'It's disgusting we are treated like animals no descent facilities hours are very unsociable no work life balance most drivers end up divorced'.

Is it really any surprise that we're facing critical recruitment shortages if this is the experience of a HGV driver? These conditions are not reflective of a modern and rewarding working environment.

We must also move away from the common misconception that service stations are only found along the M4 in south Wales. Freight moves north to south just as much as it travels east to west, and the A55 serves as a major freight route in north Wales. And it is a lottery when it comes to the quality of the services. For every service station that has clean and welcoming amenities, there is, sadly, another that does not. It's little wonder that this was raised by HGV drivers, and I'm surprised that the Welsh Government aren't aware of these discrepancies in service station and parking-site quality, because there isn't a Welsh Government survey of parking sites—something that the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport in the UK have expressed their concerns about in their evidence to the committee. I would encourage the Welsh Government to accept recommendation 3 and create a detailed inventory of locations and facilities similar to what is available across the border.

I encourage the Deputy Minister to reflect on the contents on this report and recognise the high quality of its content, contributions and conclusion, and I urge the Welsh Government to accept the recommendations made by the committee and commit to implementing them as a matter of urgency. Diolch.

Luke Fletcher (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In the first instance, as a member of the committee, I wanted to thank those who gave evidence and, of course, the clerks, et cetera, for their work on this and putting this report together. And, of course, thank you to our committee Chair for his work on this and presenting the report to the Senedd today.

I wanted to touch on two particular aspects of the report. In the first instance, the evidence we had taken from drivers themselves was striking and very informative, especially when it came to highlighting some of the negative experiences on the road, most notably was the quality and lack of rest areas, which representatives of the haulage industry agreed was an issue, as well as driver safety in these areas. We heard about substandard wash facilities, with broken tiles and showers. We heard about the risk of being robbed when parked overnight, with one driver highlighting that he had been robbed over 10 times, as we've heard already, and that is accepted as an occupational hazard. That's unbelievable that that is the case in this sector. So, I was pleased to see that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendations from 3 to 6. Whilst this doesn't rectify the issue in the short term, it will go a long way to ensuring that we can create safer and cleaner places to rest for HGV drivers in the future, but I do hope the Welsh Government moves on this as soon as possible.

On driver work hours and conditions, I think there was a very clear disconnect between what haulage representatives were telling us was happening and what drivers were telling us was their reality, which, I have to say, as a former worker in the hospitality sector, doesn't surprise me at all. If you ever want to learn about the reality of work, you can't go far wrong with actually speaking to those who are working the day-to-day. Members will see on page 9 of the report the rules around driving hours, but drivers themselves were clear that employers often push them to front-load hours to remain within their average allowance. Often, that meant working 60-hour weeks, which is both physically and mentally draining. We have some work to do in tackling this, so again, I'm glad that the Government has accepted our recommendations on this front, and I would urge them to act on those recommendations as soon as possible.

Finally, a separate point to the report, but an important point for us to note, is that capacity element to training drivers. Both Rhun ap Iorwerth and I have spoken about this issue since the publication of our report as a committee, and he's highlighted a local issue in his area. Local to Rhun, they have waiting lists for tests of up to and exceeding 10 weeks. A trainer has recently left his post in the area, meaning it will become increasingly difficult for trainee drivers to book a test. Couple this with the DVSA's decision in February 2020 to close the test centre in Caernarfon and the challenge becomes even more clear. The intention is to close Caernarfon, by the way, and move testing to a site in Wrexham, meaning those from the north-west will need to travel across the north to now be tested, further adding to that issue with capacity.

To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, there are a number of challenges to address here, and I hope that the Governments on both sides of the M4 are serious in meeting them.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Following on from what Luke just said, actually, it's not possible to book a driving test in Wrexham at all, for anybody, even the learner drivers driving a car at the moment.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate today. If we are to solve the issue of needing more truck drivers, we have to address the issue of retention, as has already been mentioned. It's not an easy job, and we should all be grateful for those who do it, especially for all they have done throughout the pandemic. It's obvious that if we are to take retention seriously, we must remedy the issue of the conditions they work in and the facilities they have available to them. That's about hearing the voices of those who work in the profession, as has happened in the committee.

It's no secret that the facilities available to drivers in the UK are not what they should be and compare poorly to facilities available in neighbouring countries. It has been raised with me that many lay-bys across key routes, including trunk roads, have been blocked off. These provided essential respite for drivers. HGV parking areas are just not up to scratch. Drivers and hauliers have been campaigning for better facilities for years. I would like to see the Welsh Government work with local government and businesses in Wales to remedy this situation. Drivers need a safe place to rest where they can access decent toilet and shower facilities, as has been mentioned. I therefore welcome the response from the Welsh Government on recommendation 3 to factor an audit of rest facilities into the new logistics and freight plan under the Wales transport strategy.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Will the Member take an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Yes.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I'm really grateful to you for taking the intervention. I could close my eyes now and be listening to a former regional Member from north Wales, the late Brynle Williams, who, some 14 years ago, was raising this very issue on a constant basis about rest stops for drivers and imploring the Welsh Government to actually do that audit and work with providers to uplift their services. Do you agree with me that it's really depressing to hear that those services haven't improved over the last 14 years and that it is a matter of urgency that they do improve in the coming years?

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Yes, I did actually say that, that we've been campaigning for years. I remember Brynle from Cilcain, and I remember him taking part in that dispute as well, before he became an AM.

I was actually going to go on to say, as well, that these rest stops are so important. I was just going to suggest that, perhaps, for the ease of drivers who continuously drive across borders, this should be included in one UK-wide map. If mapping of facilities in England is currently taking place, as I believe is happening by an agency, could Welsh Government ask them to extend it to cover Wales at the same time to save time and money? If we want drivers to be retained in this industry, then we must act quickly and I trust that the Welsh Government will do so. Thank you.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, for that. Can I thank the committee for their report and for tabling this debate, and for their continued engagement on this matter? As a Government, we absolutely remain concerned about the ongoing HGV driver and wider logistics sector labour shortages, which, as Paul Davies highlighted in his opening comments, have been exacerbated by issues and restrictions emanating from the end of the EU exit transition period, as well as the pressures deriving from the pandemic.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

The driver shortages are, of course, compounding wider domestic and global supply chain problems, leading to widespread cost inflation and longer delivery times for a broad range of goods. At present, we believe that no particular sector of the Welsh economy faces severe risks from supply problems, but the resilience of the Welsh supply chain will remain fragile as we emerge from the winter period. We are therefore more vulnerable than usual to disruptive events, such as severe weather, the Ukrainian crisis, and industrial action at ports. There's an elevated risk of unforeseen no-notice shortages of critical commodities, with potential for wider impacts to public services and businesses. The reasons behind the shortages have been well publicised, including the retirement of UK-based HGV drivers, significant numbers of EU-based drivers returning to Europe post Brexit, IR35 tax changes affecting drivers, and, of course, as we've heard, the backlog of tests waiting to be taken due to COVID.

The Department for Transport estimated that there are between 70,000 and 90,000 vacancies for HGV drivers, and whilst, as Sam Kurtz pointed out, these shortages have been developing for a number of years, as I've already said, they have been accelerated by the effects of Brexit and the pandemic. But the industry view is that these are not Welsh specific HGV driver issues; the problem, as we know, is a UK-wide one. And whilst the majority of powers relating to these issues are reserved, including driver hours and driver licensing, including training, testing and certification, we continue to press the UK Government to do more to support the industry.

Welsh Government is doing what it can to further mitigate these issues. We continue to work closely with the industry, and we have adapted existing employability and skills programmes to expand the availability of funding for training for lorry drivers. These include the personal learning accounts and the ReAct programme. Our apprenticeship programme has a number of logistics-focused options, one being the level 2 and level 3 in driving goods vehicles. And officials are working closely with Working Wales, Careers Wales's adult guidance service, to ensure that refugees who settle in Wales can access the ReAct programme, and its successor programme, ReAct+. The programme can provide up to £1,500 towards the cost of acquiring a UK driving licence and associated qualifications, such as the driver certificate of professional competence.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out, we have committed to a new logistics and freight plan for Wales, under our Wales transport strategy, and we'll work with the UK Government, the sector, and other partners, to develop this plan and ensure that we incorporate the recommendations from the committee's report into the plan. But I will speak to my colleague the Minister for Economy on whether we can bring forward the issue of the audit of driver facilities, because that does seem to be a particularly common and pressing theme that has been raised by the committee and through the evidence taken.

Industry bodies are of course grateful for the measures that have been developed by the UK Government, but they remain of the view that short-term changes to immigration policy, alongside regulatory changes to fast-track drivers into the industry, would help to ease pressures in the near term. In the longer term, there's an opportunity to reverse the problems that have been building in the industry over many years, and to create a more sustainable and resilient sector that offers fairer pay and working conditions for drivers. The UK Government stopgap measures should not undermine this longer term aspiration.

The recruitment and retention challenges that employers of HGV drivers are facing cannot be separated from the working conditions employers provide. This is not just about pay but about drivers being treated well and with respect by employers who value them. So, there's an important leadership role for the industry here, and we encourage the industry to work constructively with trade unions to improve the offer to drivers, because better working conditions would help attract and retain drivers and make for a healthier and more resilient labour market. This would benefit employers and workers within the industry.

We believe in social partnership, and that is demonstrated by the fact that we have a social partnership Minister, who's sat here today. We want to work with the freight and haulage industry, and we do work with trade unions and have honest conversations with them about how we move beyond short-term fixes to address workforce challenges and instead create longer term and sustainable change in the experience of work. I agree wholeheartedly with Vikki Howells that it is reasonable to expect the UK Government to look at how it can increase the number of female drivers in the sector. Women make up only 2 per cent of drivers at present, and that is clearly an area where targeted recruitment could help improve that statistic.

It's clear that the industry sees improved facilities for drivers as crucial to growing recruitment, and we've talked about that already. So, the Welsh Government was disappointed to learn that the £32.5 million of new funding to improve lorry parking facilities will only be made available for England. Although these matters are reserved, we have established cross-policy groups to review the latest issues, including training and roadside conditions. We're actively working on a number of areas to address and support the sector, and this includes working on a range of mitigations and interventions with various UK Government departments, the DVSA and logistics representative bodies.

We've been working with Careers Wales to promote a range of opportunities that are available across the logistics industry in Wales and how to access HGV driving as a career. We have regular contact with the Welsh branches of the Road Haulage Association and Logistics UK to gather industry intelligence on driver shortages and feed this back to UK Government. We have extended the relaxation of curfew times for deliveries to help provide more operational flexibility.

Dirprwy Lywydd, despite the legitimate concerns about HGV shortages, there are some signs that the situation is improving. The RHA estimates that the shortfall of drivers has reduced by around 15,000 over the last six months from a previous estimate of around 100,000 vacancies. However, many industry figures believe that, despite more candidates being attracted to the sector by higher pay and the measures implemented by Government across the UK, it will still take many months if not years to fully resolve the situation. So, we will continue to work with the committee and with the UK Government to ensure that the sector is given the support that it needs to continue delivering for the whole of the UK. Diolch yn fawr.