Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 2 March 2022

267 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 1 is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Peter Fox and to be answered by the Deputy Minister. Peter Fox.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the risk of flooding on the A4042 at Llanellen bridge? OQ57710

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. In recent years, we've improved the existing drainage at Llanellen to help with quickening recovery and the reopening time frame for the A4042 in the event of flooding. This year, we will also be conducting a Welsh transport appraisal guidance stage 1 to identify longer term options to help address the flooding issues.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister, for the response and, yes, the A4042, of which Llanellen bridge is a part, is a trunk road vital to the movement of vehicles across Monmouthshire. It's even more important to enable patients now to access the Grange University Hospital from north Gwent and south Powys.

Now, as I know, Minister, you're aware, flooding at Llanellen bridge has been a perennial problem. Indeed, the bridge was closed yet again, due to flooding as a result of recent storms that hit the UK just recently. Not only does this result in disruption for residents, but it also creates longer journey times, as I mentioned, for ambulances to the Grange and, for medical emergencies such as that, a delay can have serious consequences.

I welcome the WelTAG process, which I think is going to be happening tomorrow, and I'll be joining that as a stakeholder and I do welcome that. Therefore, can I ask if the Welsh Government is committed to finding a permanent solution to the problem and that the issue will be swiftly tackled once potential mitigation measures have been identified? I say that because WelTAG processes can take many years, and the importance of that needs to be addressed pretty quickly.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, yes, as the Member notes, the bridge at Llanellen is a recognised flood-sensitivity site and does sometimes close during storm events or heavy rainfall. The situation has improved there after drainage work was carried out and the road has now opened quicker than previously because of that work.

The WelTAG process, as you know, is meant to be an open-minded process—it's not meant to start with an outcome in mind. And that's one of the problems we've seen consistently with the way it works, and that's one of the changes we want to bring about—to identify transport problems and work through solutions. But, as you say, the workshop is beginning tomorrow, so let's see where that process takes us.

We do recognise, of course, that, with increasing flooding and wild weather as a result of climate change, we're going to see more storm events and more infrastructure vulnerable to the effects of the weather. And I'm sure Members will have noted the report on Monday from the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was a sobering and alarming read, and it told us the situation with climate change was worse than we thought and that there is a rapidly narrowing window of opportunity to build a more climate-resilient society. And one of the questions we have to ask is how we protect our infrastructure in such a context. We have a resilient roads fund this year of £18.5 million. We've asked the National Infrastructure Commission, as part of the partnership agreement with Plaid Cymru, to assess how to minimise flood impact on infrastructure, and the roads review is also looking at the role of maintenance and of infrastructure to deal with the changing climate.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

2. How is the Welsh Government improving transport infrastructure in Alyn and Deeside? OQ57715

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Our multimillion-pound north Wales metro programme will transform rail, bus and active travel services across the area. I have also announced a north Wales transport commission that will develop a pipeline of transport schemes for north Wales, including Alyn and Deeside.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm grateful to the Minister for that response, and, of course, we await the outcome of the roads review you mentioned in the previous question and the decision on the red route in Deeside. Now, of course, the red route was conceived to reduce air pollution in recognition that residents need solutions to this very dangerous problem. If, for example, the red route were not to proceed, the expectation from me and the residents of Alyn and Deeside is that the money allocated to it should be spent tackling air pollution in Deeside, as I believe the case was when the M4 relief road was decided against in Newport. So, can I ask you, therefore, Deputy Minister, what consideration have you given to ring-fencing this money for the area where it originally was allocated to, to be spent on new projects that will help address this very Deeside-specific issue?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. As you say, the roads review is looking at the red route, along with 54 other schemes, and it's doing that methodically, and it will report in the summer. So, we shouldn't second-guess what the outcome of that process will be, because I'm assuming there will be road schemes going ahead, but I'm also assuming that a large number of them will not be. So, it's entirely reasonable to anticipate what would happen in that scenario. I think I'd just point to him, on the funding point of view, that this is estimated to be a £300 million scheme; we don't have £300 million sitting in our budget, waiting to be spent on this scheme. Indeed, the whole point of the Burns review into the M4 was to find the solution that cost half the price of the proposed M4 and which still addressed the congestion issue. So, what I'm hoping, through the roads review and the Burns commission for north Wales, is that we'll identify transport solutions to problems that are compatible with our climate change commitments, as well as addressing local transport problems, but we need to do it in a way that makes best use of the funding we have available, bearing in mind that I was just telling the Chamber about the grave situation we have with climate change.

Now, there is significant investment going into north Wales, into public transport improvements. From this May, we'll have an increasing number of services on the borderlands line, between Wrexham and Bidston, to two per hour. We'll have a new hourly service between Liverpool and Llandudno from December 2023, and, from December 2024, a new service every two hours between Liverpool and Cardiff, and an hourly service between Shrewsbury and Liverpool. So, I think, after a long and patient wait for the people of north Wales, the infrastructure investment we're putting in is now bearing fruit. The key task for the Burns commission is to stitch that together, because we want people to feel that the easiest way to get around is public transport for the majority of journeys. That's not the reality for most people at the moment, and our exam question is: how do we get that to change?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

The prospectus issued in 2016 by the Growth Track 360 partnership—a cross-border alliance of business, political and public sector leaders, including the North Wales Economic Ambition Board and the Mersey Dee Alliance—stated that being able to link into HS2 would reduce congestion, improve business logistics and attract investment and jobs. And in January, the Growth Track 360 partnership welcomed the introduction of the UK High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill, which will facilitate the construction of HS2, where confirmed plans include the new junction north of Crewe station that they had called for. In fact, their vice-chair, leader of Flintshire County Council, said,

'Our industrial, commercial and tourism destinations would receive a tremendous boost through enhanced direct rail connectivity with London, Manchester and Manchester Airport provided by HS2 if our local lines are upgraded at the same time.'

But when the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Mersey Dee north Wales raised a similar issue in the House of Commons—the Vale of Clwyd MP, Dr James Davies—he got quite an encouraging response from the relevant UK Minister, who said that they would engage positively with the union connectivity review, which included connections between Wales and Northern Ireland, published last November. So, what engagement are you having with all these various agencies, to capitalise on the opportunities that they're all seeking, and the general welcome they've all given to January's announcement?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I was pleased that Growth Track 360 warmly welcomed the announcement of the north Wales transport commission, and that responds both to the recommendation of the roads review and to the union connectivity review by Sir Peter Hendy, which called for a multimodal study across north Wales. Obviously, part of that work will be looking at how rail services in the north can connect through to HS2, if and when it arrives, though I think we should be all concerned about the lack of investment in Wales by the UK Government on rail and the lack of a Barnett consequential from the money from HS2. I note he's optimistic in pointing to the benefits to the north of having some connectivity into a line in England, but there is no benefit directly for passengers in Wales, or for infrastructure in Wales, and that should concern us all, across all parties.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. First of all this afternoon, the Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, last week, the economy Minister unveiled the Welsh Government's national space strategy, outlining its ambition to achieve a 5 per cent share of the UK space sector, which would equate to £2 billion a year for the Welsh economy. The strategy is focused on growing the potential of current and future developments in the space sector here in Wales, including space launch training and experience capability, together with the testing and evaluation of new, greener propulsion technologies at Llanbedr. It's clear this announcement calls into question the decision of your roads review panel to cancel the proposed Llanbedr bypass, wasting £1.7 million of taxpayers' money in the process. As the criteria influencing the decision have now surely changed, will you now agree to reconsider this matter and ask the panel to review its decision in view of the potential economic benefits for the area and the whole of Wales?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, again, I will just tell Natasha Asghar what I said to the Chamber at the beginning: the panel report on climate change that was published on Monday said the situation facing all of us is worse than they thought—it is at the upper end of the projections of the impact of global warming and the catastrophic impact that will have on our economy and our society. It said we have already been impacted, changes locked in, and there is now a rapidly narrowing window of opportunity to build a climate-resilient society. I think we should all take that seriously. We can't de-link these things because we want to score political points about a different issue. The roads review panel, as part of its criteria, looked at the impact of climate change on transport and the pipeline of projects we had, and concluded the Llanbedr scheme was not consistent with the Wales transport strategy and was not consistent with achieving net zero. Now, I don't think that can be lightly set aside.

If you read the panel report on the airfield, it did show, in terms of access to that site, there were other options, and we have committed to work with Gwynedd council to explore those options to see what can be done. But we still come back to the fundamental point: climate change has profound and far-reaching consequences for us all, and we need to start reflecting that in the decisions we make. It's no good the Conservatives signing up to targets when every single time a decision is made as a consequence of those targets, they call for a different approach. It's not consistent.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Okay. Thank you, Deputy Minister. I can assure you we are all concerned about climate change. There's no denying that, and I think my colleagues across this bench, and even in Westminster, will agree with me on that. However, having seen the information that was released by the Minister for Economy, it was clear that some of the areas that were in question are protected, so that causes a concern for us as to how this is actually going to be made a reality.

Coming to my second question, I've already mentioned the cancellation of the Llanbedr bypass wasting £1.7 million of taxpayers' money on a few occasions now in this Chamber. Since then, the roads review panel has cancelled plans to remove the roundabouts at junctions 15 and 16 on the A55, wasting nearly £9 million. So, Deputy Minister, so far your policy has poured £10.5 million of taxpayers' money down the drain, and there are still more than 50 projects to improve Wales's road infrastructure under review at present. I've asked the question before and make no apology for asking it again, as I do not believe that the information is readily available to me or others. So, in the interests of transparency and accountability, if the roads review panel were to cancel each and every single one of the projects currently under review, what would be the total amount of money already spent that would be lost? Thanks.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, the roads review panel hasn't reached a conclusion yet, other than on two schemes it was asked to fast track. On both of those schemes, it's published the rationale for why, on balance, those were the best decisions to go forward. Clearly, schemes have had money invested in them. Many of the investments in the A55 junctions, for example, as we've already discussed in the Chamber but I'm happy to repeat it, were on studies that would be still be useful to the Burns commission in the north for its future work. So, it's not wasted; it has been redirected.

But, at some point, we need to pull a handbrake on schemes, because the logic of her position is we keep investing in schemes because some investment's been put in regardless of their impact on carbon emissions, regardless of their impact on air quality, regardless of their impact on congestion and climate change. And I don't think that is consistent with what the science is telling us, for needing to look afresh and to take different action. At the heart of this is that all of us have to confront the fact the science is telling us we need to change direction, and changing direction has consequences.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Okay. Deputy Minister, you were recently reported as saying that electric buses—this will be something that I know you'll enjoy [Laughter.]—should be made in Wales instead of being imported from China, expressing the wish to see an electric bus factory opened here to create greener jobs. In response, Andy Palmer, the chief executive of Switch Mobility, one of the handful of UK-based companies already making electric buses, said he had approached the Welsh Government to build a factory but had received no traction. Recently, electric buses have been bought from China by bus companies in Newport and Cardiff, which is great news. Bus operators have claimed the plan to move the whole of Wales's bus fleet to zero-emission vehicles by 2035 needs a nationwide funding plan, but Wales does not have a Government-run fund to help them with the cost of green vehicles infrastructure, unlike England and Scotland. John Dowie, the director of partnerships of First UK, which owns First Cymru, said it's time for Wales to set up its own scheme that's suited to Welsh circumstances and drive its own agenda, not just wait to pick up the crumbs from England. Deputy Minister, when will you bring forward a funding scheme to support the transition to electric buses in Wales, as they have done in England and Scotland? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, as Natasha Asghar has already very generously noted, we are investing in the transition to electric buses, particularly in Cardiff and Newport, where they have municipally owned bus companies. I want to do two things to make systemic change, rather than simply making announcements that please the industry. The first is to design a bus system that is coherent and where investment from Wales doesn't leak out. Now, at the moment, we have a fragmented commercial privatised system, where private bus companies are expecting the taxpayer to fund their capital, and then they'd pocket the profit and then don't give us services that are coherent and give people a chance to shift transport modes. That needs fixing, and that's what's going to be addressed in the forthcoming bus White Paper.

Secondly, I want a domestic industry to produce electric buses, and I think there is an economic opportunity for Wales. Rather than investing significant sums—hundreds of millions of pounds—to buy Chinese buses there's a chance to develop a Welsh and British bus industry. You mentioned an investor there. What we don't want is simply to fall back into the inward investment model. There's a chance to build local companies here; build the missing middle that we've often talked about. I set up a taskforce, led by James Davies, the chair and chief exec of Industry Wales, to look at how we can aggregate demand. At the moment, there are a lot of order books coming through the public sector. If we bring them together, pool our orders, there's a chance for a Welsh industry to emerge, and that's the work that we're doing.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. The Wales Co-operative Centre has just released a report that calls on the Government to introduce a community ownership and empowerment Act to assist local community groups to develop permanent affordable housing in their communities. The report demonstrates how the current housing system, controlled by the open market, is failing people and communities in Wales. As house prices rise significantly across Wales and there's a lack of real affordable housing for local people, then the policies of the co-operative centre can play an important role as we look to ensure locally owned community housing. The report calls on the Government to establish a commission to encourage innovative thinking on local ownership of land and assets in Wales, to introduce a local ownership and empowerment Act, to develop a database or register of land ownership, to establish a financial support fund for housing projects that are led on a community level, and to develop a formal process for transferring community assets.

Does the Minister agree that such proposals would benefit the people of Wales? And will she consider including the recommendations of the co-operative centre as part of the Government's legislative programme? And I hope you would also agree with me that the ability of communities to to deliver housing commitments is dependent on the availability of land that will enable groups to build community housing. So, what steps is the Government taking to register land ownership and to identify land that is appropriate for developing community needs?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Apologies, I lost a little bit of the translation there, but I got the gist of it, I think, so, forgive me if I haven't got a nuance, especially right at the end there. I don't know why it suddenly cut out for some reason. So, we absolutely welcome the work done by the co-operative centre. We absolutely agree that community-led housing is very much part of the housing solution in Wales and absolutely will contribute towards the delivery of our 20,000 social homes target. We've already reaffirmed that through the programme for government: our commitment to support co-operative housing, community-led initiatives and community land trusts. And I'm very pleased to be able to say that, just last week, we've been able to increase the grant to the co-op centre in order to facilitate a lot of this work. So, really pleased to have been able to do that.

The absolute core principle, as Mabon says, is to enable people to take more control of how their housing is delivered and managed. So, our support through the Communities Creating Homes programme, which is delivered by the Wales Co-operative Centre, has engaged and supported 64 groups since the start of the programme, in 2019, so far. There are also a number of opportunities available at the moment, particularly in rural communities, and I am pleased the current programme for support has influenced policies, including our Nest scheme, and it links to wider Welsh Government policies and programmes to provide real opportunities to overcome some of the barriers facing community-led groups.

But I agree that more needs to be done to facilitate this and to embed it, if you like, in the culture that we want to have. We're doing a piece of ongoing work to explore what additional support is needed through a future community-led housing programme. We've also been in discussions with the Wales Co-operative Centre regarding funding for community groups for several months now, and I'm looking forward to hearing the outcomes of those discussions as well. We meet very regularly—I meet with them, and my officials meet very regularly—with the Wales Co-operative Centre.

I welcome the report, but some of it—. Unfortunately, we haven't had an interaction over it yet, so I'll be looking forward to having that interaction. So, for example, it's clearly an expensive duplication of effort for Welsh Government to mimic the work of the UK Land Registry, but there's a real validity in making the available information much more readily accessible to community groups, and we're doing a big piece of work with DataMapWales that will help realise the ambitions laid out in the report for that, for example. There are a number of things where I'll be wanting to go through the report and just point out where we are, where we're happy to accept the recommendation, and where we've already actually taken some steps towards doing what's recommended there.

I'm really happy as well to have been able to facilitate community land trusts and co-operative housing with a registered social landlord partner to access the social housing grant, and I'm sure the Member is aware of the Solva community land trust, which we're looking at as a sort of pilot to see how well that works. We have a number of other groups doing it as well. So, in principle, I completely agree. We need to work through some of the detail to make sure that we've got the best bang for our buck—sorry, a terrible cliche, but you see where I'm going. We're also, as it happens, doing some of it, but not quite in the way the report sets out. So, in principle, we're absolutely on board with that, and I'm really keen to see as large a number of people come together in co-operative housing as we can manage in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the Minister for that response and, for the record, I'd like to thank Vikki Howells for presenting the report in the cross-party group this morning. There is cross-party support for developing such proposals, and therefore I look forward to seeing the steps that will be taken to that end.

If I could move on to retrofitting, please. Fuel poverty is a huge problem across Wales, as you know, and as a Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd I am aware of the detrimental impact of fuel poverty on communities there. We have the oldest housing stock in western Europe and they are among the least efficient homes in terms of energy. This leads to many people having to choose between heating their homes or eating—a choice that no-one should face. The price of fuel is at its highest and the cap on energy prices is to increase by 54 per cent from 1 April, as you know. Those on a default tariff who pay by direct debit will see an increase of between £693 and £1,971 on average per annum. This will push over 0.25 million people in Wales into fuel poverty.

We need to tackle fuel poverty now, more than ever, by responding to the crisis and improving energy efficiency in homes. It's worth noting too that 10 per cent of carbon emissions in Wales come from residential property, and solving fuel poverty will help us to fight climate change too. The social housing sector will be crucial as we decarbonise our homes and ensure that the economic benefits of doing that remain in Wales. It's a challenge that we need to face over the next 10 years. The Minister will appreciate, of course, that decarbonisation of homes can't be implemented without the right combination of grants, private funding, regulatory standards and a clear road map set out.

The final budget—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

A question, please, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I'm coming to it now, thank you for your patience.

The final budget—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's not endless. [Laughter.]

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

—sets aside an additional £35 million from financial transactions capital to experiment and develop new funding models in order to assist with accelerating the scale and how quickly we can decarbonise housing in Wales. Can the Minister confirm whether the social housing sector will be able to access or benefit from that funding—[Interruption.]

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Later on, maybe. Later on.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

And how will the fund be used in order to accelerate the policy and the funding for the decarbonisation of housing?

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Good question. [Laughter.]

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. I'm very tempted to just say 'yes' and sit down. [Laughter.]

Absolutely, we've already done something in Wales that has not been done in the rest of the UK, and that is, through the Welsh housing quality standard, we've brought all our social housing up to energy performance certificate D, which is a long way up from where it was before. We were repeatedly told that that wouldn't be possible when we started on that journey, so I'm delighted to say that, with one exception, which we've accepted for COVID reasons, everyone else has done it, and that one exception will have finished that process by the end of this year now.

So, we're in discussion with our councils and social landlords already about what the Welsh housing quality standard 2 will look like, and what will be expected, whether we'll be asking them to bring housing up to EPC B or A, what we will do with the housing that can't be brought up to that standard and what other measures can be brought to bear. We're also learning the lessons from the Welsh housing quality standard 1, because for the vast majority of homes it was very successful, but for some homes it was not successful and it led to some problems with condensation and damp, which I know Members will be familiar with, and I certainly am in my own constituency. So, we've learned that lesson. We've put the optimised retrofit programme in place to figure out what each house in Wales actually needs, so what combination of insulation type, tech, roof type and so on is required to get properties up to the highest EPC rating that they can achieve.

We also haven't yet announced the successor to the Arbed scheme. The Arbed scheme was very good for many people in fuel poverty in Wales, because it replaced very inefficient boilers with much more efficient ones, but they were still gas and they were still contributing to carbon, so we don't want to do that, but it's not sufficient to just say, 'We'll give you an air source heat pump,' because, as I've said many times in this Chamber, you may as well be heating the field behind your house for some houses. So, we need that combination.

As we did with the Welsh housing quality standard, we will overskill the workforce through the social housing projects, so that we can then offer grants to people in the private sector, knowing what will suit their type of house and knowing that we will get good value for money. I think I'm about to be asked a question on the order paper by another Member of the Plaid group about some of the issues we've had, and what we are trying to do is learn the lessons there, so that we aren't fitting the wrong type of tech solution to the wrong kind of property. So, these things are always very successful for the vast majority of people who have them, but then we have had problems with some housing, so we're trying to learn those lessons and to make sure that we get the right solution in the right place. So, we'll be shortly announcing the new Welsh housing quality standard to bring that up.

There's a piece of work to do in the private rented sector to make sure that we have the right incentives, so people don't just come out of the sector but bring their houses up to quality, which I've mentioned many times, and there are a range of other things that we can do for owner-occupiers, including using carrots and sticks in the local tax system, which we'll want to bring to the floor of the Senedd.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

3. Will the Minister provide an update on the Arbed 2 scheme in Arfon? OQ57712

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Siân. Seven hundred and forty-two households in Arfon benefited from home energy efficiency improvements under the Arbed 2 scheme, estimated to have saved them on average around £300 on their domestic energy bills annually.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much, but you will be aware of the problems that have arisen with the scheme, and I do thank you for your support on this to date. I am currently helping—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I will have to interrupt you there, Siân Gwenllian. We're having some difficulty with the interpretation at the moment—

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

It's intermittent. I can hear it sometimes, and not—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay, we'll take a technical break in order to sort the—. No, that's absolutely fine. So, we're going to take a short technical break now.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay, we can restart, and I'll ask Siân Gwenllian to ask her supplementary question to the Minister. Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much for your support with this issue, because you will be aware that there have been a number of problems arising in my constituency. I am continuing to assist a number of constituents with requests for compensation from the contractors or the guarantee firms, but none of these cases has successfully reached conclusion as of yet, and there are at least five cases that I'm aware of that face a situation where the construction company and the guarantee firm has gone bust, and therefore there is no compensation for them. Although it's a different scheme that has caused problems in the Maesteg area, I do think that the Welsh Government is going to be assisting constituents in a very similar situation to those in my constituency in Arfon in that particular area. That's a different programme, yes, but the principle is the same, namely that support should be provided where the construction companies and the guarantee firms have gone bust. These were Government programmes; Arbed 2 was a Welsh Government programme, and people participated in the schemes at the recommendation of the Government. So, if people in the Maesteg area are to be given compensation, isn't it fair to expect people in my constituency to be treated equally and that they too should be provided with funding in order to restore their homes?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Siân. I have some sympathy with what you're saying, obviously. What we've been doing, as you know, is working with Fortem Energy Services, the scheme manager for Arbed 2, to review the position of all residents who benefited from the external wall insulation and ensure that they're aware of the process for redress where issues have arisen. Because what we're trying to do is make sure that people do take the routes for redress where they're still available to them. So, we make sure that where the company is still there, if they're at fault in the installation, they pick up the price for that, and similarly with the guarantor.

But, you're quite right; in recognition of the plight of householders elsewhere, for other UK schemes where both the construction company and the guarantor are no longer available because they've gone out of business or for a variety of other complicated reasons, we have agreed to work with the councils there to fund remedial works and some compensations—mostly remedial works, though—for those, as well as in Caerphilly for works at Bryn Carno. I'm more than happy to explore with you whether that would be something we could ask the local council with you to see whether they would be happy to do that. But I can emphasise that we do want people to pursue all of the remedies available to them through the normal routes first, and I know you've been working on that. So, if you want to send me details of that, I'm more than happy to have a conversation with the council and yourself about whether there's anything further we can do.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you to the Member for Arfon for raising this really important question, because like her, residents have been in touch sharing their disaster stories, really, of the scheme in some of their properties. Minister, you highlighted some of the money that has been made available to Bridgend council, for example, and I'd hope that Gwynedd Council would want to work with you and others to support those residents. The question I have is about future schemes. You talked right at the start, I think, about lessons learnt for future schemes. I wonder if you think there's a greater role for councils to play in identifying these properties and supporting home owners for similar schemes in the future.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I absolutely do think that. One of the issues we've had is where we have had small construction companies that have gone out of business as a result or the guarantor scheme has gone down. So, we'll certainly be looking to explore guarantor schemes where the council acts as the ultimate guarantor, but we want to be very careful that we're not transferring a liability and a risk that properly sits with the private sector into the public sector for no reason, and letting people off the hook. I can't emphasise enough that we want people to pursue the private routes that they have all the way to the end, and we have a number of advice services in place to help people do that. I do think that where people have exhausted that avenue there must be some further avenue for them to get remedial works. I can't emphasise enough, though, that what we're talking about are remedial works, and not compensation, because those are two very different things. So, this is to put your house into the position it ought to have been in if the works were correctly done in the first place, and no doubt there will be some element there about bills and all the rest of it. We're very keen that people are put into that position, because the whole point of the scheme was to put people in a position where their house was well insulated and their fuel bills were reduced, and what we don't want is a house continuing to emit carbon and have high energy costs despite having benefited from one of these schemes. We are absolutely looking exactly at that in designing both the Arbed 2 scheme and a number of other schemes we're looking at.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 4, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much. I do apologise, Presiding Officer. Thank you very much. Deputy Minister, if you're serious about combating climate change and tackling the frequent delays on our railways—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to read the question on the order paper first.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Sorry. My apologies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That's okay.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the decarbonisation of transport? OQ57685

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, and it's nice to hear from you again. 'Llwybr Newydd', the Wales transport strategy, sets out how we will reduce carbon emissions by encouraging more active travel, greater use of public transport as well as supporting the uptake of low-emissions vehicles.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, if you're serious about combating climate change and tacking the frequent delays on our railways, you must ensure Wales has a modern rail service. However, your own Government's figures show that 69 per cent of Transport for Wales trains are over 30 years old, and 44 per cent are 35 years or older. This presents an opportunity to replace our ageing trains with hydrogen trains, which are currently being trialled in Germany. This zero-emission train emits low levels of noise, with exhausts being only steam and condensed water, enabling us to meet climate change targets. So, can I ask, Deputy Minister, what consideration have you given and what discussions have you had with regard to decarbonising transport in Wales by replacing our ageing trains with hydrogen trains to improve rail services and improve the environment? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. I've seen the latest disingenuous social media campaign on this by the Welsh Conservatives about the record over 20 years. Let me just say—[Interruption.] Andrew R.T. Davies says he's telling the people what's right. Well, first of all, you need to explain what the devolution settlement is. I'm happy for my officials to arrange a briefing session for Members of the Conservative Party to explain what is devolved and what is not devolved and how the Barnett formula works. That might be an instructive exercise for them. [Interruption.] Llywydd, it's hard to hear—even through his mask, the Member is still quite loud. [Interruption.] What I don't like is glib social media campaigns that hide the truth, which is that the UK Government is underfunding the Welsh passengers. That's the truth, Andrew R.T. Davies. Over the last—[Interruption.] Llywydd, please, this is not a conversation. I've been asked a question, I'm trying to give an answer with a running commentary from the man in the mask. For the last 20 years—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

All men are in masks. Let's stop the references to masks, please, and let's allow the Deputy Minister to answer the question that was asked of him.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Over the last 20 years, Llywydd, for 12 of which the Conservatives have been in power in the UK, where rail infrastructure is not devolved, Wales has received less than 2 per cent of the £102 billion that the UK Government has spent on rail enhancement. We have 20 per cent of the level crossings across England and Wales, we have 11 per cent of the stations, we have 11 per cent of the rail track, we have 5 per cent of the population, and yet we only get 2 per cent of the funding. Forty-one per cent of the rail track in England is electrified, 2 per cent of the rail track in Wales is electrified. What's made it worse is that the Department for Transport comparability factor used for Barnett formula calculations for Wales has dropped from 89 per cent to 36 per cent. This means there's less money for Wales, despite significant increases in rail spending for England. That is fundamentally wrong, something that the Conservatives on the Welsh affairs select committee have recognised, and in a cross-party effort have said the UK Government needs to make sure that HS2 spending is Barnettised properly across the UK, and Wales gets its 5 per cent share. I've heard nothing from the Conservative benches, despite me asking several times for a cross-party effort on that, and I would still welcome it, instead of making cheap shots and not directing blame where blame is. [Interruption.] Llywydd, it is an unacceptable intervention from the Conservative benches, and it's a shame I have to draw attention to it. Despite that, we are investing £800 million on a new fleet of trains that will serve 95 per cent of passenger journeys across Wales from 2024. The first of those are already being tested, and will begin serving passengers in north Wales this year.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Deputy Minister, as you know, a key element of the south Wales metro, funded by a Welsh Labour Government, will be the introduction of cleaner, greener, environmentally friendly electric tram-trains on the core Valley lines, including between Aberdare, in my own constituency, and the capital. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact that these trains will have on reducing our carbon emissions?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

A modern metro system is an integral part of a joined-up public transport system. It's a part, it's only a part, and there needs to be other parts as well. We need to integrate the bus services, which are the workhorse of the public transport system and carry the majority of people, along with active travel for that final bit of the journey. We know that over half of all car journeys are under five miles. These are currently being driven, clearly, and they could be done by foot and by bike. A system that links all these up into a modern metro system has significant potential, along with behaviour change interventions, to achieve modal shift, which is part of our transport strategy and part of our net-zero plan. The vision of the metro is to provide a turn-up-and-go service. People will do the easiest thing to do. Currently, we have designed a system where the easiest thing to do is to drive, and we need to change that so the easiest thing to do is to use public transport and active travel. The investment we're seeing in the south Wales metro, which is the largest civil engineering project of its kind in Wales at the moment—over the next few years we'll begin to see the manifestation of that in a major way—will be a significant step forward alongside the other measures that we're working on.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

5. What support does the Welsh Government plan to give to companies in Pembrokeshire to help them reduce their carbon emissions? OQ57722

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Cefin. The Welsh Government offers a wide range of support to help businesses reduce their environmental impact. This includes our Business Wales resource efficiency advisers, who, since 2016, have supported 170 Pembrokeshire businesses in improving their environmental sustainability strategies.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Minister. A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of meeting the port authority in Milford Haven, and had a very beneficial meeting about their plans for the future. It emerged during that meeting that as Wales seeks to increase its efforts to meet its net-zero targets while taking great advantage of the green growth opportunities, it's evident that the main oil and gas employers in Pembrokeshire need to transform from their traditional sectors in order to reduce their carbon emissions and develop new green industries around the port, for example, which sustains 4,000 good jobs locally. So, as well as the Pembroke Dock marine project, which is part of the Swansea bay city deal, as you know, will you outline whether the Welsh Government is ready to invest further, and directly, in some of the technologies, such as hydrogen and offshore wind and carbon capture schemes, in order to provide green jobs in the Pembrokeshire area and unlock possible opportunities worth £5 billion for the region and for Wales?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, absolutely. I'm very happy to do just that, because we're very keen to unlock those green jobs. You will know that our Net Zero Wales plan highlights how we're looking to reduce emissions whilst delivering those wider benefits that you've just outlined. At this point in time we've provided £6 million of environmental protection scheme grant support to Valero, to assist its decarbonisation efforts. That's locked £120 million of investment in the installation of a cogen plant to reduce emissions and take them off grid. We've provided a raft of innovation support, including £100,000 to pump prime the Milford Haven Energy Kingdom project development, which has leveraged in £4.5 million of UKRI funding. As you said, Cefin Campbell, Pembrokeshire businesses play an important role in the south Wales industrial cluster. One of those businesses, RWE, has launched a net-zero centre to maximise the potential of hydrogen, floating offshore wind and carbon capture, and I was very pleased to speak at the ports conference highlighting their efforts. The Welsh Government is funding a £100,000 phase 2 feasibility study for the supply of green hydrogen into Pembrokeshire and Milford Haven, using the ERM Dolphyn offshore wind floating hydrogen production technology.

These companies are all key to the Celtic sea cluster and our emphasis on the offshore renewable industry. We've also got the decarbonisation and COVID challenge fund open to food and drink businesses, so outside of the energy business itself, to seek to aid recovery within the Welsh food and drink sector, which has been adversely affected by the pandemic. We also offer a range of general business advice, information and signposting, as well as specialist strands of advice such as resource efficiency and signposting on green policies to reduce carbon emissions across Wales through Business Wales, and a number of Pembrokeshire businesses have got in touch with us over that. And the last one to just highlight is the Milford Haven Energy Kingdom project in Pembrokeshire, which is that £4.5 million project, which shows the vital role hydrogen can play in a decarbonised energy future. I just wanted to highlight that one point, because that's the key—the transfer over from fossil fuels to a different kind of technology that protects the very highly skilled jobs that are part of that Pembrokeshire cluster.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, earlier this year I had the pleasure of visiting the National House Building Council award-winning Pludds Meadow development in Laugharne, in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, a site operated by Salem Construction, who are producing high-quality, energy-efficient homes on the outskirts of one of Carmarthenshire's most famous towns. The builders had a real desire to minimise their carbon footprint, using local staff and items such as air source heat pumps to heat their homes. Will you outline what support the Welsh Government is providing to businesses such as Salem Construction to help reduce their carbon emissions even further, both through the way in which their businesses are run and by continuing to produce homes that emit a small carbon footprint? Diolch.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, we absolutely welcome the move by a large number of small and medium-sized producers right across Wales to low-carbon housing. We will also be bringing forward changes to our building regulations—my colleague Lee Waters will be bringing forward changes to the building regulations to make sure that the building regulations for everyone are at that sort of standard, and I'm very happy to have the way led for us by a number of SME companies, such as the one you mentioned there.

We provide a wide range of general business advice through Business Wales, as I've just said in answer to Cefin Campbell, which includes resource efficiency, support on green policies to reduce emissions and so on. We also are very happy to work with any green housing supplier to help us use them to build our social housing and to build out mixed-tenure estates so that we have similar housing right across the piece, so that we don't have people going into fuel poverty in the future. And we also are very keen—. Again, the Deputy Minister and I have a construction forum, which is a housing sub-group, and we are very keen to have SMEs such as the one you mentioned come along to that construction forum to share good practice and to hear about a range of other loans and other opportunities we have—stalled sites funds and so on—to bring forward land for development that will allow the SMEs that build such lovely housing to access funding to bring further developments into use in Wales as fast as possible.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

6. How will the Welsh Government work with local councils to tackle air pollution? OQ57721

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. We've recently launched a local air-quality management support fund to help authorities tackle air pollution, and have awarded over £350,000 for this financial year. The grant supports action on the ground and we'll continue to work collaboratively with local authorities to deliver cleaner air for Wales.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you for that, Minister. It is crucially important that we get our policies to tackle air pollution right, given the effect on public health, respiratory conditions and other health conditions and, of course, the effect on our environment. And I think these problems are particularly acute in our more disadvantaged communities. So, the sooner we get practical policies in place that are going to make a real difference the better. And I think one example of that is the conversion of our taxi fleets to electric vehicles or certainly more environmentally friendly fuels. And I just wonder, within the money that's been made available, Minister, that you describe and the joint working between Welsh Government and local authorities, to what extent there's an assessment of the state of readiness of our local authorities to make these practical improvements and to work with them to make those positive differences as quickly as possible. Because it really is an urgent problem for our communities, and the sooner we get these practical improvements in place, the sooner public health and our environment will benefit.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

We already are working on practical improvements. The example in Newport of free bus travel for the month of March is a perfect example of a practical scheme to trial something to see what impact it has, to see whether or not the cost of it is justified by the benefits of it, to see what the uptake is, to understand what the barriers are, to further inform our work as we look to achieve modal shift. There are further practical examples in Newport on active travel, with the Burns delivery unit and the independent board chaired by Simon Gibson to deliver the Burns plan—and we saw the interim report of the Burns board recently, and I met John Griffiths and his colleague from Newport West in Newport to discuss it—where we are seeing significant work on a pipeline of schemes for Newport now, which will result in very large investment for the city for active travel. So, I think there are two examples there of practical schemes already under way.

John Griffiths also mentions what we can do to encourage taxis to convert to electric vehicles and, as he knows, we currently have a pilot of a 'try before you buy' scheme in the Cardiff capital region, in Pembrokeshire and in Denbighshire, to incentivise taxi drivers to try electric vehicles with a view to them then buying them. We're going to be evaluating that to decide whether or not that is the best use of our scarce resource, given the way the market is already moving; it is already competitive to buy an electric car versus a new petrol car. And we'll be evaluating those projects and taking a further view of what other practical schemes we can do, as we develop our clean air plan and bring forward legislation.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

7. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy on promoting the economic benefits from renewable energy production in north Wales? OQ57690

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I certainly recognise the substantial economic opportunity north Wales can realise from renewable energy. I'm working with the Minister for Economy and other Cabinet colleagues to capture the benefits from our energy transition, including through the regional energy strategy and the north Wales economic framework.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Minister, for your response, and I'm really pleased to hear that you too see the opportunities that renewable energy has for us in north Wales and Wales as a whole. If we're ambitious enough, we could see a transformation in our economy through the green economy that's right in front of us. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a number of significant renewable energy projects popping up all over north Wales at the moment, whether it's wind, solar or marine energy projects. One of my concerns, though, is us not realising the full opportunity and potential we could take from those. So, from making sure that our docks are properly utilised and that jobs can be created there, whether it's at Holyhead, Mostyn or elsewhere on the north Wales coast, and not losing those jobs to perhaps the docks at Liverpool or elsewhere—. So, I just want to hear a bit more about how you plan to ensure that some specific sites are being well utilised, that apprenticeships are being driven in north Wales and that young people, especially, have opportunities for great jobs in the region off the back of these projects.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I absolutely agree entirely with you there, Sam Rowlands. There are significant opportunities from optimising the social value of our natural resources, including through the generation of local clean energy. And as you rightly identify, it's not the quantity of renewables being developed that generates the wealth but the development of all the local ownership structures, supply chains and employment opportunities that come with it. So, we've initiated, funded and supported four regional energy strategies that will start to identify the scale of change needed to achieve the low-carbon energy system. The strategies are all co-developed by the regional partnerships and are accompanied by an economic assessment of how to lever in the most social value out of the undoubted renewable largesse that we have right across Wales.

The vision presented within the north Wales energy strategy is estimated to result in an additional 24,400 net jobs and associated increase in gross value added of around £2.4 billion in the period to 2035, compared to business as usual. And that is absolutely associated with the delivery of accelerated deployment of renewable electricity-generation technologies and enhanced levels of energy efficiency to go with it. It estimates that there'll be over 1,200 more growth jobs associated with the provision of low-carbon heating technologies in that scenario, associated with a further £192 million of GVA.

So, I absolutely agree with you it's absolutely incumbent on all of us to work towards making sure that we emphasise community ownership, or some proportion of community ownership where possible, and by community ownership that can also include local authority ownership and Government ownership where appropriate to assist communities to get a foothold in the ownership structure. But it also includes making sure that we have the right skills base to attract the right jobs here, so that we have not just the maintenance and renewal jobs, but the engineering, design and construction jobs that come with them—the top-end jobs and the management jobs that come with that as well. So, absolutely on the same page as you, and we're working very hard with our regional partnerships to ensure just that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

8. How is the Welsh Government working with Welsh Water to mitigate flood risks in South Wales West? OQ57683

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Tom. The Welsh Government funds risk-management authorities, such as local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, to reduce flood risk. Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water are responsible for managing their own sewerage assets. We encourage all parties to work collaboratively to address the risk of flooding to all our communities.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. You may be aware of the decision made by Welsh Water to close the Vardre bridge that spans the River Tawe at Clydach in my region. A structural survey undertaken by Welsh Water three years ago found that the bridge was unsafe and instead of repairing it, they simply closed the bridge. Local residents have contacted me to say they're concerned that now debris is building up and forming a dam that could lead to serious flood issues in the area, particularly as the river is known to rise to meet the bridge during heavy rainfall. The closure of the bridge is also causing significant disruption in the community. For example, Vardre Rugby Football Club use this bridge to access their pitches for their players and supporters, and they're now forced to take a detour of over a mile from their changing rooms to their pitch. The rugby club also were active in the community and cleared the debris around when it was in use, but now it's closed they're unable to do that, and therefore that causes that flooding concern in the community I mentioned earlier.

So, can I ask the Minister what value you expect Welsh Water to place on the importance of an asset to a community when considering what action it takes on it? Also, what maintenance and flood-prevention work do you expect Welsh Water to undertake on an asset like that, which is closed to the public? Finally, will you seek clarification from Welsh Water on behalf of the people of Clydach on their future plans for the Vardre bridge and whether they'll consider either maintaining or reopening the bridge, on which so many of the residents of that community rely?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I'd expect Welsh Water to take into account a hierarchy of issues. The first is to prevent flooding. That's absolutely the first—loss of limb or life and to prevent flooding; that's the first thing they have to do. So, if they're looking at a building up of debris around the bridge and so on, they are expected to clean that out. They are expected to work in conjunction with Natural Resources Wales and the local authorities, and other agencies with responsibility for that, including—I don't know the example you give, but including the riparian owners and so on, to make sure that that is in an optimal condition to cope with any additional storm and so on. So, that's the first thing they need to do. Then the second thing they need to do is to make sure that all local amenities are recovered as fast as possible and to make sure that they do that in as timely a way as possible.

I'm not familiar with the incident you're talking about, so I'd encourage you to write in to me with details of the incident, and then I can look at the specifics for you. But, in general, obviously, the first thing is to prevent the flooding and loss of life and limb, then to make sure that infrastructure assets are as safe as they can be, and then to ensure that amenities are recovered as soon as possible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on progress with achieving targets set out in 'Cymraeg 2050', please? OQ57717

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yesterday I published the 'Cymraeg 2050' annual report for the 2020-21 financial year, which shows progress against our targets. Once the results of the 2021 census have been published, we'll revisit the statistical trajectory towards a million Welsh speakers, as I promised last July when I launched our work programme for 2021-26.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. The Welsh language belongs to us all, whether we speak it or not.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

But unpleasant commentary recently has sought to reawaken divides over Welsh. Jeremy Bowen, Jonathan Meades and others have rightly been criticised, but this could, ironically, be an opportunity, because the Government's plans with 'Cymraeg 2050' could centre not only on increasing the numbers of people who speak Welsh, as vital as that is, but centre also on creating favourable conditions. Surely, part of this has to entail increasing the sense of ownership that non-Welsh speakers feel for this language that enriches all of us in society. Some of the fiercest campaigners I know for Welsh-medium education are the very people who were denied the chance to learn Welsh when they were little. So, Minister, how do you think that Government plans and targets can work in concert with the need to increase this level of support for Welsh among those who can't speak it? How can we ensure that everyone living in Wales and everyone who feels this sense of belonging to Wales—that they feel that the language, too, belongs to them and that they have a part to play in its story?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I would, if I may, just associate myself entirely with the sentiment in the question; I couldn't agree more with the world view that you've described in your question. It is fantastic that 86 per cent of adults in Wales have pride in the Welsh language, whether they speak it or not. Just let that statistic sink in; it's fantastic as a sort of starting point for the analysis.

I think one of the things we must do is make sure, as I was saying in the statement yesterday, that we encourage everybody, even if they have a word or two of Welsh, and most people in Wales have a word or two of the language, just to use them, because, actually, it's by creating the use of Welsh, even in that small way, in the public space that we'll help each other along that journey.

There are lots of people who feel put off by, maybe, feeling their Welsh isn't what they would like it to be, and I think we should, actually, change the expectation and say, 'Use the Welsh that you have got; learn a few more words and use a bit more every day.' In that way, we'll make real progress towards the million Welsh speakers and doubling the use of Welsh every day.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

'Cymraeg 2050' acknowledges the importance of Welsh-speaking communities as places that facilitate the use of the language in every aspect of everyday life. However, with the Welsh Government only delivering 4,616 of the 12,000 new homes required annually in Wales, there is a huge shortage of houses for our youngest generations to remain in their home towns or villages. In fact, a cumulative total of 14,240 young people in the 20 to 29 age group left four Welsh counties between 2012 and 2016. [Interruption.] The consultation on the Welsh language communities housing plan highlighted that you are considering options to help local people to access affordable housing. Minister, many Welsh-language young people are from farms and, as such, their families do own land. Technical advice note 6 allows for new isolated residential development in the open countryside for rural enterprise workers, but have you ever considered undertaking some discussions with the Minister for Climate Change to maybe expand—[Interruption.] Yes, you could do it now.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Allow the Member to carry on with her question. I'm sure she's coming to it very soon.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I am. To expand on TAN 6 that maybe children of farmers can more easily gain planning permission to build homes on their own family land. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think the question was a model of cross-Government scrutiny, in terms—[Interruption.]—in terms of its breadth and its scope, which is commendable. I think somewhat at odds with the comments I heard the Member made this morning about the proposals that the Government are bringing forward in relation to council tax to the benefit of some of those communities that she identifies rightly in her question—[Interruption.] That she identifies rightly in her question—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Carry on, Minister, yes.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

—as being a particular concern for many of us in this Chamber. I know from the discussions that we've had in a private setting that she shares many of those concerns as well. I would dispute the figures that you've given in relation to housing provision, and I know my colleague here, the Minister for Climate Change, is passionately disputing them as well to my side here. But I welcome her commitment to making sure that our Welsh-speaking communities, where Welsh is a main language, retain their vibrancy and their prosperity into the future. I hope she's taken the opportunity of responding to the consultation that closed during last week and I'll look forward to reading her comments if she has.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. What discussions has the Minister had to resolve the pension dispute in higher education institutions in Wales? OQ57697

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Universities of course are autonomous bodies, independent of Government, and they are responsible for their own administrative affairs. The Welsh Government Ministers have no authority to intervene in those discussions, but we hope they will reach a happy conclusion.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Minister. It was a privilege to meet some of the strikers on the steps of the Senedd today and they praised my colleagues Sioned Williams and Mike Hedges for the support that they've shown them.

A fair pension should be a fundamental right for every worker in Wales, and the fact that they are cutting end-of-employment pensions by 35 per cent is disgraceful, and that is based on dated evidence. The more up-to-date information shows that the pension deficit has fallen significantly during the pandemic, and the universities' budgets have been healthy, with the number of students attending universities remaining consistent and increasing, indeed, which shows the quality of the workforce we have in higher education.

Now I accept what you say, namely that universities and higher education institutions are independent, but you do have influence, Minister, and I hope that you would do more than wish them well, and that you would use that influence to write to the vice-chancellors, showing your support to the workforce in HE and inform the vice-chancellors that they do have to come back to the table to negotiate. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I've already made my expectations clear to the sector. It's important that the negotiations do reach a settlement that reflects the contribution and the interests of the staff. That's very important in terms of ensuring HE provision, but also in ensuring that we can attract people—students and teaching staff as well. But I've also explained that we need to be transparent and accountable in terms of the decisions made and the income coming to universities. So, I do hope that this will be able to reach an outcome that can reflect the interests of the staff as well.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

We all want to see a resolution to this dispute, Minister, and I do understand, obviously, that higher education is an autonomous body and they are responsible for the negotiations in this particular aspect. Students have had a lot of disruption to their education over the last couple of years with COVID and now industrial action. We're in a critical window for most students, who have to have dissertations in by April, to get their marks ready for their degrees, hopefully. Would you support, where facilities have been withdrawn and services have been withdrawn to students, that they should be reimbursed? Because, obviously, students have paid in to those universities in expectation of tutorial time and face-to-face educational time, and if there's industrial action happening in the HE sector that isn't being provided and, in any other sector, you'd expect some recompense. So, would you support reimbursing students who haven't had that service provided to them?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, universities have provided a range of different means by which students can continue their education, even in the very, very challenging circumstances of the last two years, in fact. And that has involved offering a blended approach, which I'm sure none of us would want to see as the norm, but it has been a way in which students' experience has been able to be maintained, with, I think, some innovation in some campuses in particular. Where students feel that they have a particular concern about a particular course, then they have recourse through their student unions—I'd encourage them to take that up—and through the universities themselves.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I think we both share a desire for education to be futureproof in Wales, especially at a time post-Brexit, which is presenting and will present so many international opportunities going forward. We need to ensure that pupils from Wales have the very best chances and are truly able to compete on a global stage. I spoke recently in the Chamber about the benefits of providing both modern and international languages across our educational settings, so I won't repeat. And it seems clear, from the money that the Welsh Government have put into this aspect of learning, that you acknowledge those benefits also, Minister. So, I'm wondering how, even though you've ploughed a total of £5.7 million into your Welsh Government's Global Futures programme, with the funding increased 71.8 per cent since 2015, GCSE entries in French and German have declined by 41.2 per cent and 45 per cent respectively. By contrast, in England, there were noticeable increases in French and English from 2019-20. And for the first time since records began, in England, Spanish attracted over 100,000 entries—almost double the 2005 total. It is clear that, in comparison, Minister, something in the Global Futures programme is failing. Could you please explain to the Senedd how any new moneys for this failing programme are going to reverse this downward trend? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I would dispute the impression that the question gives, I'm afraid, which is that this is a Wales-specific challenge. That doesn't make it any less of a challenge in Wales, but it does tell us something about the nature of the challenge, which is that there's a picture of a general decline, actually, in modern foreign languages right across the UK. So, I think it's an unhappy situation that all four parts of the UK have to wrestle with. I do think that the work that partners through the Global Futures programme have been doing has—. The focus of that has been to promote and to raise the profile of modern foreign languages in schools in Wales generally. We are working with Estyn, with the regional consortia, with universities, with Qualifications Wales, and, in that mix, there's a wealth of experience and resources in addition to support our schools in Wales. But I think one of the key opportunities for us, as we bring forward the new curriculum, and the reform to our qualifications, is to widen the choice available to our learners, and I think that extra flexibility we anticipate will help us in this challenge as well.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. I'll just repeat: by contrast, in England, there were noticeable increases in French and Spanish from 2019-20, and that, since records began, Spanish has increased to 100,000 plus. It's completely different to our numbers, which are declining. Also, we have seen the modern foreign language teachers numbers in German and French decline by 14 per cent and 15 per cent respectively over the last five, six years. Is one of the causes of the Global Futures programme failing the lack of teachers coming forward, and, if so, what steps are you doing to rectify that, please, particularly, as you said, because the new curriculum presents us with so many opportunities, as does, potentially, changing the school day? So, we need to have these teachers in place so people are able to have those modern language opportunities if they desire, going forward. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I agree with the challenge that the Member describes in terms of recruitment. We have, of course, got an incentive scheme to encourage teachers into subjects such as some of the ones that she's referred to, which have been challenging in terms of recruitment in the past. And actually, those schemes do in fact lead to beneficial outcomes. I do think that it's a mix of challenges, really. One of the aspects of our education reform that I think may have a bearing on how this could look different in the future is the internationalisation of the education system generally in Wales through the Taith programme, which, although probably the focus has been on higher education, also benefits further education, schools as well, and youth services. So, I think there's a very exciting opportunity as part of that to raise the profile in our schools, alongside the new curriculum, of the importance of modern foreign languages, as well as the teaching of Welsh, of course.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. Now moving to a more sobering subject, but an important one to address today, Minister, the situation in Ukraine is heartbreaking, and certainly not something I'm sure any of us thought we'd ever see again in Europe. It was made clear yesterday that we all want to see Wales as a refuge for Ukrainian refugees fleeing the conflict. In order to accommodate the children and give them the education they need and deserve when they are here, we need to be prepared.

Minister, with a general lack of teachers across Wales, and a large number of schools oversubscribed, what steps are you taking to ensure that we are able to welcome these children into our Welsh education system with open arms?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I dispute the point that the Member makes in terms of the general lack of teachers in our system. I don't think that's a remotely fair reflection of the situation that we are in, but I would associate myself with the sentiment in her question about how important it is for us in Wales to be able to extend our welcome to those leaving and fleeing Ukraine. And the Member will have heard the points that the First Minister made yesterday in the Chamber in relation to our ambitions as a nation in relation to that, and you may also have heard the comments that there are discussions with local government partners in relation to how we can work together to make sure that we are best placed to welcome those who may move here—and we hope that they do—and that will be part of those discussions.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Llywydd, and I'd like to declare an interest that my husband works for Swansea University.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Today, students from Wales are taking part in a strike organised by the National Union of Students, and the aim of the strike is to imagine a new vision for education, and is also a show of support for the industrial action taken by members of University and College Union, which has seen staff at Swansea University and the Open University in Wales strike over insecure contracts, unfair workloads and cuts to their pensions. This new vision of accessible and fully-funded higher and further education, with proper pay, pensions and conditions for staff is something we desperately need.

On 28 January, the UK Government's universities Minister announced that the repayment threshold and interest rate thresholds applying to plan 2 and plan 3 student loans would be frozen in 2022-23. The thresholds have previously risen with average earnings. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said this effectively constitutes a tax rise by stealth on graduates.

Minister, you have confirmed that the freeze would apply to Welsh graduates, despite education policy and significant parts of the student finance system being devolved. The Welsh Government seem powerless to oppose this freeze, which will add hundreds of pounds on to the tax bills of Welsh graduates already facing the effects of the cost-of-living crisis, and this isn't the only area where students are facing increasing costs. The average student rent in Wales has risen by 29 per cent in the last three years, which now, in fact, means it now takes 60 per cent of the maximum student support package in Wales, and all the while we know students are facing a rise in energy bills as a result of the incoming price cap increase.

So, can I ask the Minister what the Welsh Government is doing to support students and graduates during the cost-of-living crisis? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Can I just comment on the first point that the Member makes in relation to our ambitions for the education system in Wales? And I agree with her that the principle that underpins the higher education system in Wales is much more progressive than the ones that she was describing as happening over the border in terms of student finance. She will obviously know that every Welsh full-time undergraduate student receives a minimum of £1,000-worth of grant and additional support, regardless of where they choose to study in the UK, and we have a more progressive policy in relation to part-time study as well.

I think a less remarked, or a less often spoken about, difference that we have in Wales as well is that the Welsh Government makes provision to cancel up to £1,500 of maintenance loan debt for each student that starts repayment. That's the only part of the UK that does that, and we're very proud of having a more progressive system of finance here in Wales.

In relation to the point that she made about the loan threshold, which I made a written statement about in the last week or so, part of the challenge that we face here in Wales is that, whereas a lot of the powers sit in our hands in relation to student finance, the implementation of a different policy on the ground is not in our hands. That's a question for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs in many respects and other non-devolved bodies. And, when a policy decision is made, as it was in this case, at very short notice, it provides really no room to be able to respond to it in a different way here in Wales. She will have seen, though, in the last few days a range of other proposals that have come out from the UK Government in relation to student finance reform, and I have asked officials to work with Treasury officials and UK Government officials to see what better room for manoeuvre we can have in Wales so that we can make different choices here than those that are made in very different circumstances across the border.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch, Weinidog. Qualifications Wales was established in August 2015, and is an independent regulatory body set up to ensure that qualifications are effective for meeting the reasonable needs of learners in Wales and to promote public confidence in qualifications and the Welsh qualifications system. Qualifications Wales must produce an annual report detailing how it has exercised its functions. However, there is no legal requirement for Qualifications Wales to be reviewed independently after a set time frame. The current arrangements do not allow for regular independent review to ensure that the body is working in the best interests of the education sector and has the appropriate powers to fulfil its purpose, especially when we think now of the substantial changes currently being made to qualifications and GCSEs that we've seen recently.

In England, Ofqual employs a standards advisory board, made up of independent assessment specialists, to review research and make recommendations on maintaining standards. Similarly, the Scottish Qualifications Authority Act 2002 ensured that an advisory council was established as a part of the SQA. This council provides consistent advice to SQA and Scottish Ministers and allows for incidental or supplementary provision as Scottish Ministers think fit. So, I'd be interested to hear whether the Minister agrees it would be beneficial for Qualifications Wales to follow these examples of statutory governance structures and to be regularly and independently reviewed to help meet the core aims of the body. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I will need to remind myself in a different context of the statutory underpinning of some of the points that the Member raises in her question and some of the particular questions of detail around governance that she refers to, and I'm very happy to do that. But what I would say at the moment is that there is a very significant programme of reform under way in relation to qualifications in Wales, where I know, in the discussions that we've had in the co-operation agreement, we have a common ambition that there is an ambitious and radical set of reforms to our qualifications in Wales to reflect the new curriculum, but also to reflect the changing landscape in the vocational qualification world, for example. And there are a number of opportunities that we all have at this point in time to engage with Qualifications Wales to help shape some of that, so that the work that they undertake on our behalf commonly best reflects the needs of learners in Wales. So, I would encourage anybody with an interest in how those qualifications work in the real world and the benefit they bring to our learners to engage. There's a real opportunity for us all to do that now.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

3. What assessment has the Minister made of the collection and use of pupils' biometric data in schools? OQ57698

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

From our meeting in December, you will, I know, be aware that we can't legally prevent schools from collecting and using biometric data. However, as a consequence of the discussions and the issues that the Member helped us understand better, officials are currently revising the guidance for schools and local authorities to ensure that where data is collected and used, it is done in the appropriate way.

Sarah Murphy (Labour, Bridgend)

Thank you. In March 2020, the European Data Protection Board imposed a fine on a Polish school for using biometric data, or fingerprints, for 680 children in the school canteen in exchange for their school meals. Whilst it was noted that the school had received written consent from parents, the board stressed that biometric data was not essential for lunchtime practices. They could not carry out means that do interfere with children's privacy. Minister, you can imagine my horror when it was brought to my attention that these same practices are taking place in schools across Bridgend and Porthcawl and all over Wales. Even more worryingly, the use of biometric data is being sold to schools and parents by unscrupulous companies as a safer option. Minister, I cannot emphasise this enough: it is not safe or proportionate. Passwords and PIN codes can be reset. Once your biometric data is compromised, it is compromised for life. It stops the children, for the rest of their lives, being able to use their fingerprint for security reasons. We're also teaching our children and normalising them using their bodies in exchange for meals as part of a transaction in our schools everywhere. I believe this topic needs a debate of its own, but, in the meantime, will the Minister ensure that data protection is a priority for this Government and ensure that, at the very least, children do not fall victim to data breaches as emerging technologies enter our schools?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

This is a very, very important matter, and I absolutely applaud the Member for her consistent and, if I may say so, expert advocacy of this issue, both in the Chamber and beyond. Schools have the option, as she says in her question, to use biometric systems as one of the authentication methods that they use to provide, for example, cashless catering in the context of free school meals and so on. That has helped remove some of the stigma.

However, as I say, as a consequence of the discussions that we've had, officials have been engaging with the Information Commissioner's Office, the Children's Commissioner for Wales, as well as the Biometrics Commissioner for England and Wales, in order to revise that guidance. The guidance will include detailed information regarding schools' obligations in relation to data protection, impact assessments and, importantly, children's rights impact assessments prior to making a decision to introduce a biometric system. It'll be published on our website and it'll be available to parents, to carers, and to young people themselves. The privacy of young learners is absolutely fundamental, and the guidance will reinforce the message that participation in a biometric system is not mandatory and that parents and carers must provide written consent before any biometric data can be collected. And I hope she would welcome the fact as well that a child-friendly version of the guidance will also be published so that children and young people in Wales understand their own rights to privacy in how they engage with these kinds of questions in schools. We'll be seeking direct feedback from young learners later this month regarding the content of that guidance.

James Evans (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Minister, I've seen the benefit of biometric data in schools, as a local authority councillor. It was introduced to help reduce the stigma around free school meals. When everyone is using the same queue and the same payment system, it does reduce the potential for bullying and harassment. However, some parents and children and rightly worried and concerned about the use of the biometric data and where their details are being stored and whether they are very secure. So, Minister, will you take this opportunity to reassure parents and concerned individuals about the risks of data breaches following the installation of biometric devices, and can you confirm whether there have been any data breaches in schools or colleges across Wales? Diolch, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank James Evans for that question. I refer him to the answer I gave to Sarah Murphy a moment ago in relation to that. I'm not aware of any schools or colleges in Wales using the newer biometric technology such as facial recognition systems, for example, but I will reassure him, as I did with Sarah Murphy, that the guidance will set out for schools and parents and carers, but also for learners, the framework of rights and their entitlements in relation to this. Also, in an area where the technology is often changing very rapidly, we will undertake to keep that proactively under review as new technologies emerge.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

4. How is the Welsh Government supporting higher education students wishing to study health and social care in Wales? OQ57716

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our generous student support package and the NHS Wales bursary scheme enables students in these fields, along with our institutional investment in high-cost subjects, including medicine and dentistry. We are committed to establishing the north Wales medical school, which will complement existing high-quality medical education in Wales.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer. The coronavirus pandemic has shown us all just how important and key social workers are, and if we are to encourage people into the social work profession I think we need a parity of bursary with the NHS bursary you mentioned. People who look to go through this training are often older and they're often from a very diverse background. I had the pleasure of meeting a few of those this afternoon, and they really do need this bursary. Minister, you'll be aware of a petition currently going through the Senedd committee's process, and that calls for removing all barriers to entering the profession and it calls for a parity of the bursary and a parity of esteem in that offer. Can you commit to that parity of bursary and, if so, when?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, as the Member says, social work students are unable to access the NHS bursary, but they can access the social work bursary through Social Care Wales, and that provides them with funding towards the cost of their living and tuition fees. Obviously, I'm aware of the representations, including those to which the Member refers, that the bursary funding doesn't provide the same level of funding as its NHS counterpart, and we are currently reviewing and assessing our options with respect to the funding of social work training. From 2022-23, all postgraduate social work students in receipt of the bursary will now be able to access the reduced student finance loan, which closes a loophole that has prevented them from receiving that kind of loan prior to now.

Gareth Davies (Conservative, Vale of Clwyd)

Minister, we need to do all we can to encourage more young people to consider studying for a career in health and social care in Wales, particularly in north Wales, as you mentioned before, to prevent this brain drain that we often talk about. No amount of money will solve the crisis facing health and social care. It's not a shortage of funds causing our growing waiting lists; it's a shortage of people. So, what steps are you taking to encourage more people into STEM subjects? And what discussions have you had with Welsh universities regarding steps they can take to make it easier for Welsh students to study in this field?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There is a range of interventions, on which I worked together with my colleague the Minister for Economy, in schools in relation to this, and there is a need to make sure that the STEM subjects are accessible and attractive to all students, actually. There is sometimes gender bias within those subjects. So, I certainly think there is more that we can all do in that regard.

Some of the reforms I was just talking about—reforms to qualifications in the future—are designed specifically to open up greater opportunities for a wider range of GCSEs, many of which are STEM-adjacent subjects, for example in the fields of engineering and manufacturing. I think that will create a different culture and different set of expectations within our schools, and open up greater opportunities for people to study STEM or STEM-relevant subjects.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

5. What action is Welsh Government taking to improve access to Welsh-medium early years provision? OQ57713

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Working with partners, including local authorities and Mudiad Meithrin, we are making significant investment in Welsh-medium early years provision via our capital grants, the Sefydlu a Symud programme, and our investment in the workforce. We also fund Welsh-medium places through Flying Start, the childcare offer, and our early education provision.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Now, Cynon valley has a number of flourishing meithrins, in Penderyn, Aberdare, Mountain Ash and Abercynon, and it is important that they are sustainable and can access suitably qualified staff. The extra financial support from Welsh Government for meithrins that you announced a little while ago is of course very welcome, and I know you referred to Cam wrth Gam in your statement on St David's Day yesterday, setting out the ambition of the Government to nurture the Welsh language. But can you provide a little more information on how Welsh Government is working to encourage, promote and support people into careers in Welsh-medium childcare?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that really important supplementary question. The last meeting I had before coming into the Chamber today was in fact with the Deputy Minister for Social Services, who was reviewing the 10-year workforce plan for the sector, and identifying with her what more we can do to encourage young people into Welsh language provision in early years settings more broadly. But there is a broad and varied programme of support in place for the childcare, play-work and early years workforce in relation to learning and improving Welsh, which includes programmes like Camau, which is an online, entry level self-study course, and accessing workplace learning. There are also a number of options open to people considering joining the childcare sector, with apprenticeships and full and part-time courses available both in Welsh and in English. We're aware, obviously, as her question implies, that the number undertaking those courses through the medium of Welsh is lower than we want them to be, and we'll be working to improve this over the course of the Senedd term.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, yesterday the Welsh Government announced funding for 11 capital projects to expand Welsh-medium education, and I am pleased to see £2.5 million being allocated to Ysgol Caer Elen in my constituency to fund an additional 60 Welsh-medium placements for children in the longer term. This funding is to be welcomed and certainly will help to improve access to Welsh-medium education in Pembrokeshire, although it is very important that children can access early years provision through the medium of Welsh in all parts of the county. So, can you provide us with an update on the discussions that you've had with Pembrokeshire County Council on improving access to Welsh-medium education? And can you also tell us what discussions have taken place with Mudiad Meithrin, who also played an important part in introducing families to the Welsh language through the Cylch Ti a Fi and Clwb Cwtsh schemes, for example?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Of course, the authority has introduced the Welsh in education strategic plan for me to approve, and I'm looking at that at the moment. Every authority in Wales has been asked to be ambitious in terms of what they provide in terms of Welsh-medium education through the next decade. For the first time, we can go to a 10-year plan and I think that that will facilitate linguistic planning, including our schools, of course, but also the early years.

We have an investment scheme with Mudiad Meithrin over this Senedd term. We've reached the latest aim of 43. Twelve are being opened in this financial year as part of 60 over this Senedd term. We know that the chance that someone will go forward to Welsh-medium education is much higher if they've been in Welsh-medium early years education, so I do share with the Member that priority.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

6. What advice and support does the Welsh Government provide to schools to ensure that participation in sport is available to all students? OQ57711

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We are committed to supporting the physical health and well-being of all learners in Wales. That is why the promotion of the lifelong benefits of physical health, including sport, is a mandatory part of every curriculum in every school and setting in Wales for three to 16-year-olds.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister. Thanks for that response. Minister, you will already be aware that the UK's chief medical officers have recently published the first ever guidelines on physical activity for disabled children and young people. It is now recommended that disabled young people take part in around 20 minutes of exercise a day and strength and balance activities three times a week. These guidelines will go some way in helping to support disabled children and young people to improve their physical and mental health, as well as closing the wider health gap between disabled and non-disabled people. However, it's important that schools and other educational facilities help to facilitate participation in sport and physical activity for all students, and that can be quite difficult when there's a lack of appropriate equipment and facilities, and a very crowded curriculum.

Minister, what discussions have you and your officials had about the impact of the new guidance on the teaching of sports in schools, and what more support can the Welsh Government provide to schools to ensure that they have the equipment needed so that all children and young people have equal access to sport and physical activity?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Officials are considering that in the way that you imply in your question at the moment. I completely agree with the point that you're making, that it's vital that access to sporting activities and physical activities in schools are available and accessible to all our learners. I think that's a principle that underpins the importance of health and well-being in our new curriculum, and I made a speech a couple of weeks ago where I was keen to emphasise that the curriculum is a curriculum for all our learners, and so it needs to be regarded in that way, and we will look at what more we can do in terms of professional learning and resources to make sure that that part of the curriculum is as inclusive as it possibly can be.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

COVID-19 has disrupted almost every part of our lives, but for many young people, they've missed out on those crucial first opportunities to take part in sports that interest and excite them, and these are some of the most important formative years. We all know the benefits that sports can bring to both the physical and mental well-being of our young people, and we must ensure that children do not miss out on those benefits for years to come because of the pandemic.

What role does the Minister see our schools having in making sure that our youngest generation still get these opportunities, and what more can we do to encourage more participation in school sports?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think schools have a very, very important role in making those opportunities available, and the mandatory expectation for physical health in the new curriculum from September onwards I think reflects the important role that schools have to play in that. We work hard in the Government to continue to ensure that all schools can offer that range of high-quality sport and physical activity opportunities.

You will have heard the Deputy Minister yesterday talking about the new 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, but also that daily active offer as part of that strategic approach for all our learners, and part of that is around making sure that all our children and young people have access to settings where physical and mental health remains a priority. And so, making sure that the curriculum provides an outcomes-focused programme through the Welsh network of healthy school schemes will be an important contribution to that; the daily active offer, which I've mentioned as well, together with work that we do with Sport Wales and other third sector organisations to ensure that every child has access to sport and physical activity opportunities. She will also know about the winter of well-being package that has been rolled out over the last few weeks, and, obviously, an important part of that is providing additional sessions around the school day to promote physical, mental and emotional well-being, both in English and in Welsh.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

7. Will the Minister provide an update on the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme in Swansea? OQ57682

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm pleased that Swansea's proposed £150 million school estate investment continues to move at pace, with four projects already completed. This means more than £38 million has been invested in schools in Swansea during second-wave investment through the sustainable communities for learning programme.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Minister for that response? Last month, I attended the official opening of the new Tan-y-lan school, where my grandchildren attend, and this month, I will be attending the opening of the new Tirdeunaw school. Of the six comprehensive schools in Swansea, three have been rebuilt on the same site, one completely refurbished and one is a relatively new school. The only school that's only had emergency work done on it is Bishop Vaughan, the local Catholic school. Will the Minister meet with the Catholic Education Service, Swansea Council and the school to discuss a way of rebuilding the school on the current site?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm hoping to join you at the opening of the Tirdeunaw school, in fact, so I look forward to that opportunity. Obviously, we're aware that a number of voluntary-aided schools are in need of replacement and refurbishment, and my officials continue to work with local authorities and diocesan authorities to look at the funding options available. I will, in fact, be meeting with representatives from the Catholic Education Service and the diocesan directors of education next week to discuss the challenges that the sector faces, and I'd be very happy to meet with Swansea Council and schools' representatives to specifically discuss the issue that the Member has raised.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the availability of revision material for the driving theory test in Welsh? OQ57689

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Language Commissioner's office has investigated this matter. Only publications produced by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency are covered by their Welsh language scheme. So, as it stands, the revision material is not available in Welsh, but I will continue to work with the commissioner's office to seek a resolution to this.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much. I've been trying to find a resolution to this through the DVSA and by asking for Welsh Government support for around eight years now. It is so frustrating. Quite simply, you are welcome to take your theory test through the medium of Welsh, but there is no revision material online or mock tests and so on. There's nothing available. I know of many who wanted to take their theory test in Welsh, but chose to take the English test because of this, and I can fully understand why. And I also know of some who feel that they had been disadvantaged because the test wasn't in their first language.

Now, Cai Phillips, a former Member of the Youth Parliament, got figures through a freedom of information request that show that 382 people had done the practical driving test in Welsh in 2018-19, but only 53 did the theory test in Welsh. The pattern is similar in other years. And as we have heard, the DVSA say, 'Well, it's not our responsibility; it's a matter for the private sector and there is no competition for Welsh.' But we can't leave this to market forces, we need intervention.

Now, former Ministers and the Welsh Language Commissioner, as we've heard, have said that they share my dissatisfaction with this situation, but please can we have a greater commitment than those few words, Minister, despite how positive they are, to put pressure on the DVSA and, indeed, to work on the DVSA—work with them—and not to give in until this changes, not only because it's important as a matter of principle, but also because of the practical need for these tests?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member says that this is frustrating, well, it is frustrating. It is a situation that causes great concern, I would say. People are going to look at the availability of Welsh revision materials when they decide how to take their tests. So, that's an obvious risk, I would say, and it's about time that the DVSA fulfilled their responsibilities and provided Welsh language materials as well. So, there is no lack of clarity in terms of what the requirement is and what the responsibility of the DVSA is in this sense.

As the Member mentioned, the issue has been discussed several times over the years, here and in other places. The attitude of the DVSA on this issue hasn't changed and, because of that, the Welsh Language Commissioner's officials want to discuss this with the Books Council of Wales to see whether there are alternative options that we can explore in this sense. The commissioner's office will discuss this with the office of the Secretary of State for Wales as well. I am eager to back the commissioner's work in this area because an investigation is under way. So, I want to collaborate with them to see what more we can do to encourage the body to improve its Welsh language services. I will be raising the issue with the deputy commissioner when I next meet her. But, it's quite clear what the responsibility of the DVSA is in this context.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical question is next, to be answered by the Minister for rural affairs and to be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

1. What assessment has the Government made of the impact of the United Kingdom and Aotearoa (New Zealand) trade agreement on agriculture in Wales? TQ602

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We've worked with our industry stakeholders to identify the impacts on Welsh agriculture. This work underpinned our representations to the UK Government that any trade deal must not disadvantage Welsh farmers or compromise our high animal and environmental standards.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I thank the Minister for that response. Now, whatever the spin of the Conservative Government in Westminster, the truth is that this trade agreement will leave Welsh farmers at the whim of a market that they have no control over. If something changes in the lamb market, particularly in terms of China or the United States, then there will be far more New Zealand lamb reaching these shores or going into the European Union, undermining our farmers. Without a tariff, Welsh farmers have no say and no protection. Plaid Cymru has warned for some time that these trade agreements will have a detrimental impact on Welsh farmers. The Farmers Union of Wales has suggested that the impact of the agreement with Australia, for example, will lead to a reduction of £29 million in the red meat GVA in Wales. Whilst it's not possible for us to make the same forecasts for the agreement with New Zealand, the data available suggests that the impact of both these agreements will lead to a decline of somewhere in the region of £50 million in the GVA of the red meat market in Wales.

So, I would like to ask you as Minister whether you believe that this is a price worth paying. Welsh farmers are more vulnerable to a bad agreement than other farmers in this state. Also, does the Minister agree with me that the Westminster Government needs to hold a full assessment of these trade agreements and their impact on Welsh farmers?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I do. I think it is that cumulative impact, because it's very clear to us and probably to your party, and certainly to the stakeholders we spoke to, that one of the things we were very concerned about with the Australia deal is that it would set a precedent and you can see now with the New Zealand deal that that is absolutely the case. So, I do think that an assessment is needed. Now the deal has been signed, obviously our officials and I need to scrutinise that next chapter. But we warned them; this is what we told them would happen. We're very concerned about the animal health and welfare standards and the environmental standards. I think New Zealand have very similar standards to us, if not higher, perhaps, in some cases, where Australia certainly doesn't. But it is that cumulative impact—you know, what's the next trade deal going to do? So, I think it is important that we monitor it very carefully. We repeatedly raised concerns with the UK Government about this, but I'm afraid they haven't listened to us.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I'm grateful to the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for bringing this question forward today, but it is important to note and remember that this trade deal is worth much more and is much broader than agriculture alone. This isn't spin—[Interruption.] This isn't spin, as the Member said. This deal is the most advanced agreement that New Zealand has signed with any nation bar Australia. Despite the chuntering of the Member from Blaenau Gwent on the back benches, it is one of the most environmentally green deals ever, confirming commitments to the Paris agreement and net zero. It will liberalise tariffs on the largest list of environmental goods in any free trade agreement to date and encourage trade and see investment in low-carbon services and technology. It will also ensure that produce not able to be grown or produced here in Wales, such as Marlborough sauvignon blanc, manuka honey and kiwifruit, become more affordable to Welsh consumers. At the current time, 210 Welsh businesses export goods to the value of £23 million—[Interruption.] They may wish to shut me down, however these are the facts, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, you won't be shut down unless I say so, and you can carry on, in my opinion.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch i ti, Llywydd. At this time, 210 Welsh businesses export goods to the value of £23 million to the New Zealand market, and the indication is that, across the whole of the UK, the value of this relationship is likely to increase by almost 60 per cent. While I understand the agricultural industry's concerns that Wales will be flooded with an influx of New Zealand lamb, we already know that New Zealand do not even use half of the quota that they are allowed to export under existing rules. In fact, New Zealand sheep meat exports to the UK have fallen by nearly a half over the last decade. With Wales currently exporting agri-produce to the value of £1.8 million to New Zealand, and £23 million of export in total, could I ask the Minister what plans she has to help the Welsh agricultural sector further grow this market, and what discussions is she having with Cabinet colleagues to ensure that we make full advantage of this trade deal with New Zealand?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Member does a sterling job in putting a very positive spin on this trade deal. The question I was asked—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Let the Minister respond, please.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The question I was asked was about the impact on agriculture, and you will appreciate that's where I've had my focus. It is important that we do look at how we can expand our exports. You will be aware that the Minister for Economy is currently in Dubai at Expo 2020, where, yesterday, for St David's Day, Welsh food and drink was promoted on the UK pavilion for the whole day. We've just had Gulfood, where Welsh Government supported eight food and drink companies, and we're continuing to work with Hybu Cig Cymru to make sure that we do expand new markets for our very high-quality Welsh lamb and beef. But that does not take away the concerns that we have about the New Zealand trade deal. You are quite right; New Zealand doesn't currently meet its tariff-free quotas for lamb, and that's primarily due to the costs and the distance of exporting to the UK, as compared to the far nearer and obviously larger Chinese market. But there is a risk that New Zealand will pivot away from China, in particular due to current trade friction. Of course, New Zealand does, as I say, send the majority of its beef, for instance, to China and the United States. These are large markets that will still demand the majority of exports, but it's the cumulative impact that we are particularly concerned about.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to take part in this question, and I thank Mabon for laying it. Unlike Samuel Kurtz, who will try to defend the indefensible, and has swallowed, obviously, the little black book or whatever it is he's been given to do that, I don't feel quite so assured, and I'm sure the farmers in my area and his area won't feel quite so assured either. It is a fact—let's keep to the facts here—that Australian animal welfare is lower. [Interruption.] This now is, you're quite right, a New Zealand trade deal. We all know that there is a high dependency in our area on exporting Welsh lamb, and it is, in my view, the best lamb in the world; there is no question about that. But we can't ignore the fact that there is going to be a cumulative effect of all these trade deals. It doesn't matter how you try to talk it up. And that in itself will have a negative impact on the farmers here in the UK, particularly here in Wales. Brexit was supposed to deliver freedom. Well, it isn't going to deliver much freedom for these farmers when they haven't got any money in their pockets. So, my question to you, Minister, is: above and beyond what the Welsh Government is already doing to support Welsh farmers, which is much more than the UK Government, by the way, what more is the Welsh Government able to do, considering that the budget for farmers has already been decreased by excessive amounts of money, so that Welsh Labour ensures the future of Welsh farming here in Wales, unlike the Tory Government who are determined to destroy it?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Joyce Watson makes some very important points. The UK Government, however the Tories over there defend them, cannot pretend that they've ever supported farmers in the deals that they have brought forward since we've left the European Union, and you only have to look at my budget to see how much money farmers have lost from the UK Government in their funding to the Welsh Government. The Member will be aware that work is well under way to bring forward an agriculture Bill this year. That will ensure our future plans take into account the potential impacts of trade deals. That's something I've been very keen for officials to work through. What we want to do is make agriculture much more resilient and competitive. And, of course, we've always said, haven't we, that our rural communities are so important for our culture, for our heritage of Wales and, of course, for the Welsh language, and farmers are right at the heart of that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is 90-second statements. There's one today, and that's by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Today, I want to pay tribute to the lifeboat crew of Trearddur Bay.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Today, the Trearddur Bay RNLI lifeboat station and crew make history by becoming the first station ever to receive a silver gallantry medal for a rescue onboard a B-class Atlantic 85 inshore lifeboat. Cast your minds back to the storms of May last year. As most of us took shelter, the crew of the Atlantic 85 were called into action, launching at the very limits of the boat’s capabilities, in gale force 9 winds, to rescue a surfer in trouble. They found her at the mouth of the bay, within a few metres of the jagged rock face, struggling to keep her head above water. The prestigious silver accolade goes to helm Lee Duncan in recognition of his leadership, seamanship and exemplary boat handling. He manoeuvred the boat with amazing precision and timing to reach the casualty, allowing the crew to quickly recover her from the water. As well as Lee Duncan’s silver award, bronze medals are being given to the volunteer crew, Dafydd Griffiths, Leigh McCann and Michael Doran, recognising their courage. I met Dafydd at the station a few days after the rescue, and he described it as one of the worst incidents he’d seen in over 20 years of RNLI volunteering. The entire Trearddur Bay team involved in the rescue are recognised with a chief executive’s commendation. The crew don’t do what they do for recognition, but this is a very public reminder of the bravery and the selflessness of RNLI volunteers everywhere.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Ynys Môn is proud and very grateful to you.

5. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Alun Davies (Blaenau Gwent)—The impact of storm overflows

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Item 5 is next, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, the impact of storm overflows. I call on Alun Davies to move the motion.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to bring forward this legislative proposal. Members who have had the opportunity to note the legislation I propose—well, those eagle-eyed Members, certainly—will note a certain familiarity with the wording. It is, of course, the wording that was accepted as an amendment in the House of Lords last October. When I brought forward this piece of legislation last October, it was with the intention of seeking to understand where does Wales stand, what is the legislative and statutory framework for the management of releases into watercourses in Wales, because I think we do need to fully understand. I'm glad the Minister herself is answering this debate, because I think it would be very useful for us to understand the statutory framework that exists in Wales. I should say that since I brought this forward, I understand that the climate change committee as well has taken an opportunity to look at this subject, and I think we're all looking forward to reading the report of that committee.

My concern is that the framework that currently exists in order to regulate this part of the statute book is somewhat complex. I question whether it is fit for purpose, and I look forward to the Minister providing us with the reassurance that it is. To my understanding, the current legislative framework is largely established by, first of all, the Water Industry Act 1991, but then the Water Act 2003 and the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations 2017, which provide for the primary mechanism for assessing and managing the water environment. These regulations then place a statutory duty on Welsh Ministers to prevent deterioration and to improve all water bodies to 'good' status by 2027. I'd be grateful for the Minister's confirmation that she is committed to meeting that objective.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

We also know that Natural Resources Wales prepares river basin management plans for each of the three river basin districts in Wales, and these plans should impact water quality and they should set environmental objectives and implement a programme of measures to protect and improve the environment. Whilst I welcome the fact that NRW does have the ability and should set these management plans, it's difficult to note without disappointment that although they were consulted upon three years ago, no final plans have yet been published. I think that is a real source of disappointment and also concern for us. Given this somewhat complex statutory environment, I wonder why the Welsh Government sought to exclude Wales from some of the proposals in the Environment Act 2021, which gained Royal Assent last November.

In normal times, I would always argue—and the Minister has heard me argue this—that there should be a distinct statute book for Wales where the legislation that affects Wales can be found and easily accessed. One of the criticisms made, of course, about the statute book by the former Lord Chief Justice Thomas in his commission's report is that it's very difficult to access and understand where Welsh law sits. The reason for that is complexity, and one of the reasons for the complexity is the fact that Welsh law sits in more than one place. It sometimes sits in a number of different places, which means that it's difficult to understand, not just for ourselves but also for lawyers, judges and legal professionals. That is a fair and reasonable criticism to make. I wish to understand where we are in Wales at the moment, what is the statutory framework, and how does that deliver the objectives that I think we will all share on all sides of the Chamber today and across the country. We all want to see river water quality improved, we want to see watercourse quality improve, we want to see water bodies' quality improved, and we want a statutory framework that's understandable, that's easy to appreciate and to understand, and that can then be delivered by the bodies, individuals, organisations and businesses that are affected by it.

What I don't want to do this afternoon is to criticise either the current water companies that we have in Wales or those people who provide for discharges to watercourses, because that isn't the purpose of what I'm proposing today. What I do want to do is to ensure that we have a statutory framework in place to regulate discharges to watercourses and water bodies, and then we can have the debate and the discussion about how we deliver the improvement in water quality, because that then enables us to deliver that in all sorts of different ways.

I think one of the things that's really affected a lot of us—. As somebody who grew up in the Valleys of south Wales, in Tredegar, I well remember the Sirhowy river when I was a child, which was filthy, and I don't think we can put too fine a point on it. That water contained almost anything you can imagine. I remember telling friends of mine who lived 'down the country', as we used to say, down in Llangynidr and elsewhere, that, 'Our rivers are better than yours because they've got more colour in them' and, 'It's a terrible river because you can see the bottom of it'. I think those days are gone, and I hope they have gone, but what we need now is a statutory framework that will ensure that moving forward we're all able to guarantee water quality wherever we live in Wales, and that we're able to have a statutory framework that we can all understand as well. Thank you very much.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I'd like to thank Alun Davies MS for what I consider to be an exceptional legislative proposal. Now, whilst the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales is targeting all farmers in relation to water pollution through the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021, Welsh Water and other water companies are effectively responsible for too many water pollution incidents and simply they are allowed to get away with it, and it is not being addressed. Too often, in my own constituency, I can think of incidents where hundreds and hundreds of fish died and were found dead as a result of water pollution incidents, and local anglers bringing this to my attention. I then contact the water companies and, indeed, NRW, but the speed by which they work is simply not fast enough. Last year I worked on a case that highlighted the fact that despite Welsh Water being aware of hydraulic overload flooding issues at a lay-by in Capel Curig during heavy rain, and that's been happening since 2004, it still remains the case, almost two decades later, that the organisation simply cannot justify a permanent solution to the flooding issues.

According to the Consumer Council for Wales it is important to understand that if the flooding has been caused by the public sewer, the sewerage provider is responsible for fixing the problem. Additionally, with regard to sewerage undertakers, the following is noted in section 94(1)(a) of the Water Industry Act 1991:

'It shall be the duty of every sewerage undertaker...to provide, improve and extend such a system of public sewers (whether inside its area or elsewhere) and so to cleanse and maintain those sewers and any lateral drains which belong to or vest in the undertaker as to ensure that that area is and continues to be effectually drained'.

I actually do believe, and it's understandable—no-one is not saying it is—that they are failing, currently, to meet that duty due to finance issues. We need to undertake a frank discussion with the organisation to establish exactly what it would take to ensure that their infrastructure operates in an effective way that does not harm the environment. And I have to say, in all fairness to Dŵr Cymru, when they've had issues, it can be—. I think Welsh Government have a part to play here, Minister. I think we all, as Members, should be doing more to highlight the problem that plastic wipes that are flushed down the toilet—the negative impact that has. I quite often retweet Dŵr Cymru notices asking people not to put these things in the toilet, because they are really causing heavy pollution, heavy blockages and, you know, our—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can the Member conclude now—[Inaudible.]?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

—rivers to be unhealthy. Okay, that's it. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for introducing this legislative proposal. A number of constituents have been in touch with me, as is the case for many other Members I know, expressing concerns about sewage being spilt into our waters from storm overflows—many of them supporting the call by Surfers Against Sewage to stop the release of sewage into the seas by 2030. These people include swimmers, surfers and also people who are encouraged to use the seas for their health and well-being. And the concern is that the current practices not only have clear environmental implications, but they also represent a direct risk to the health of people using our waters. There was one surfer who truly wanted to take advantage of a good day of waves, as we have around Anglesey very often, but told me, 'I'm not sure how ill I will be if I do go surfing.'

In looking into the issue, one thing that became clear to me was that it's only during the usual swimming season that water monitoring actually happens, and it doesn't happen in winter when there is potential for CSO spills to be higher, of course, and often because of wetter weather. And representing an island constituency, I can tell you that people do use our beaches and waters at all times of the year, and some of the best surfing waves come in midwinter. You need to actually look at them very closely, if you ask me—it looks very cold—but some people do enjoy that, and I enjoy watching them, I have to say.

But I will ask the Member whether he would agree on the need for monitoring 12 months of the year, and is that something that the Bill that he proposes would deliver? And perhaps the Minister could also comment on the need to extend the current seasonal monitoring. It would be of great help to constituents in making choices as to whether they do go swimming or surfing or not, and I think it would aid with the objectives of the proposed legislation too. And I'm happy to support it.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I also thank my colleague Alun Davies for tabling this important piece of legislation? It is something I will support on behalf of my constituents who live in the lower Swansea valley. There is serious pollution in the River Tawe, especially as it travels through Swansea en route to the sea. The Tawe has discharge from the Trebanos treatment works, and waste materials such as parts of trees and plastic are also there causing pollution. Anglers are concerned about untreated human waste entering a river where children regularly play. I'm told that there is evidence of eutrophication on the River Tawe. My constituents feel there is inadequate action by Natural Resources Wales, and they are the ones who think there's no action at all by NRW.

According to Welsh Water, when there is heavy rainfall, too much water can get into the sewer, meaning it has to be released back into rivers or the sea without the usual treatment. This is going back to the nineteenth century. Welsh Water have said they are permitted to operate sewers in this way by Natural Resources Wales, and the practice is unlikely to cause environmental damage. Well, if it's unlikely to cause environmental damage, the question has to be, why do they not discharge all sewage directly into the rivers and into the sea, if there's no environmental damage being caused? I'm unconvinced that there's no environmental damage; my constituents are certainly unconvinced there's no environmental damage.

Local anglers say the river still smells foul days after heavy rainfall has ceased, and that is a public health concern. They're also concerned that the sewage can cause excessive algae growth, which could upset the river's ecosystem. And I don't think that we always think about rivers in terms of their ecosystem, but, like everywhere else, they are very prone to one thing happening that can cause serious problems. And we have rivers that are almost dead because of the algae growing in them, and that's something we don't want to see happening.

If there was a storm and you get lots of water in the drain, the storm storage part of the sewer fills up and discharges into the river. It should stop when the storm stops. But here the issue continues for up to 36 hours after the storm, caused by excessive surface water getting into the sewer. There is a lack of investment in storm water storage, and the only solution is more money being spent. The only way we're going to get more money spent is making it a legal requirement. That's why I support Alun Davies's proposal.

We want to reduce the impact of sewage discharge on both the environment and on public health, and we need to place a duty on a sewerage undertaker, enforceable in law, to not discharge untreated sewage. If they can get away with it, why would they engage in treating it? We need to support this because it's for the benefit of anyone of us who lives near a river.

Peter Fox (Conservative, Monmouth)

Can I thank the Member for Blaenau Gwent for bringing this forward, and for his introductory speech, which captured so many things that I think we'll all agree with? There's no doubt about it, sewage discharge is very important and very topical; I think there is little that occupies my inbox more than this at the moment, especially in our area. Recent statistics have shown that raw sewage was dumped into Welsh rivers more than 100,000 times, for almost 900,000 hours, during 2020. In fact, Tintern, in my own constituency, saw some of the highest numbers of sewage releases in south-east Wales in 2020, recording 263 releases over 1,489 hours. These are absolutely staggering numbers.

The River Usk is particularly affected by this issue. It has experienced a number of release events in recent years, over and above those that have happened due to high rainfall, and that is the big bone of contention. Last year we know an investigation by Panorama—we all saw it—found that the Aberbaiden treatment plant in Usk illegally dumped untreated sewage into the River Usk on 12 consecutive days in December 2020. And it was discovered that there was also a Welsh Water-owned sewage overflow pipe into the River Usk that didn't have a permit. Now, I know these issues have since been looked into and are being worked on by Welsh Water. However, concerns remain as to how fast the required sewage disposal infrastructure can be put in place to mitigate against sewage discharge, and that's all across Wales. So, there is also concern and frustration expressed regularly, certainly by constituents, that our regulators are not taking robust enough action on those who knowingly pollute, and that includes water companies.

As we're all aware, the release of sewage into the natural environment, as we've already heard, even when absolutely unavoidable, results in pollution and reduces water quality, as well as harming wildlife, and it's clear, then, that more action is needed to cut down on such incidents across Wales. However, I realise that there isn't an easy fix, and that companies are taking some action to reduce the impact of overflows on the environment. For example, I'm aware that Welsh Water have been working with NRW to identify CSOs that do not have a permit so they can be regularised and put into the improvement programme. But there is more to do, and that is why I'm supporting the proposed Bill set out by Alun Davies. There needs to be more of an onus on water companies to take steps to ensure that the release of sewage is an exception rather than the norm. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I just want to contribute to this debate as Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, just to take the opportunity to inform the Senedd of the committee's recent work in this area.

The frequency of sewage spills and their impact on the environment and public health is an area, as we've heard, of serious public concern. And in response to this concern, and on the back of significant developments in England, as we've heard in the opening remarks, the committee decided to hold a short inquiry on storm overflows.

The purpose of our inquiry was to better understand the extent of sewage spills in Wales and to look at the action being taken by water companies, by regulators and, of course, by the Welsh Government to try and reduce them. The committee is in the process of finalising its report at present, which we will publish later this month. And while I wouldn't want to pre-empt the findings of the report, I'd like to highlight some of the issues that we covered during our inquiry.

Storm overflows should operate infrequently and in exceptional weather conditions only. But, of course, as we've heard, that is not the case at the moment. Instead of that, we hear regular reports of sewage spills in rivers across Wales, and the latest data shows that sewage was discharged into our rivers more than 105,000 times in 2020 alone—105,000 times in one year. And that does suggest, of course, that there is a significant problem.

But what's being done to address this? Water companies were keen to highlight the fact, of course, that sewage spills from storm overflows are not the main cause of river pollution in Wales. And while that is true, we shouldn't use that as an excuse to not respond strongly to this problem. And regardless of their contribution to poor river health, sewage spills are at an unacceptable level.

Now, during our inquiry, we heard reports of improvements in transparency around storm overflows in recent years following the introduction of event duration monitoring and annual reporting. But, again, there is room for further improvement. We touched upon the current regulatory and enforcement regime for storm overflows, including NRW's approach to investigating incidents of sewage pollution. Now, NRW must be able to respond promptly and effectively to all cases of river pollution, regardless of their source, and we know from recent experience that that simply isn't the case.

We heard the Welsh Government and its partners have established a dedicated taskforce to consider how best to tackle the impact of storm overflows, and this, of course, is a very welcome development. The taskforce will be publishing a road map for storm overflows shortly, and then there will be an action plan following in the coming months.

Will these steps be enough to address the problem? Well, only time will tell, but the public has made its position clear on this, and it wants to see a significant and urgent improvement. And, as a committee, we will be keeping this under review to ensure that the Welsh Government and the water companies and the regulators are all delivering, not only to protect our environment, but also to protect public health.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I'm grateful to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for bringing forward this Member's legislative proposal, as I myself had an incredibly similar MLP on improving inland water qualities here in Wales. And it's reassuring to know that, while there may be potential disagreement over the semantics and finer points of the policy, it is, in fact, an issue that does generate cross-party support. And as he so eloquently said in opening this debate, it hasn't escaped his attention that there are similarities between his legislative proposal and that of the UK Government's Environment Bill, which sees a duty to ensure water companies secure a progressive reduction in the adverse impacts of discharges from storm overflows. I think it's encouraging that, when there is a good idea, regardless of which side of the political divide it comes from, it is acknowledged as such, and I'm sure Members in this Siambr will be aware of the repeated emphasis that no one side has a monopoly on good ideas, and, therefore, I will be voting in favour of this proposal.

I'd like to take the opportunity, like the Member for Ynys Môn, to pay tribute to Surfers Against Sewage for their work in highlighting and combating the discharge of sewage into the sea at beaches across Wales. Many Members may be aware of the targeted e-mails to elected Members when a combined sewer overflow—a CSO—has discharged sewage into a water at a specific location. Surfers Against Sewage have estimated that, between 1 October 2020 and 30 September 2021, 5,517 sewage discharge notifications were issued by water companies warning of sewage pollution impacting designated bathing waters in England and Wales. Of these, 3,328 discharge notifications were issued during the bathing season of 15 May to 30 September. So, based on the widely accepted advice not to swim in sewage-polluted waters for 48 hours following a discharge, this means 16 per cent of swimmable days during the bathing season have been lost due to sewage pollution events.

It would also be remiss of me, as shadow rural affairs Minister, not to mention agriculture and agricultural pollution. It is my belief that for too long the agricultural sector has been unfairly targeted as the sole and lone polluter of our waterways. The industry wants to improve and do better by the environment and by our waterways, but it is not they alone who are responsible for water pollution incidents. So, that's another reason why I lend my support to this proposal, as it aims to reduce the sewage discharges in our waterways, which, I believe, will bring about positive improvements to the quality of water, our environment and to public health. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As all Members have said, there's been a lot of media coverage recently about water quality and sewage discharges into waterways, and, as Alun pointed out in his submission, the UK Government has legislated to set targets for water companies in England to reduce these. But there is a widespread perception that this is the main cause of poor water quality, but, actually, as most people have acknowledged in the Chamber today, numerous factors contribute to poor water quality, including agricultural pollution, private drainage misconnections, septic tank overflows and a variety of other issues.

I've recently met with—in fact, it was Monday evening that I met with—Ofwat, and they've told me that 35 water bodies have been identified where intermittent sewage discharges are partially contributing to the reason for not achieving good ecological status under the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England and Wales) Regulations 2017, and they are also failing for other reasons. So, Ofwat is going to be conducting a review of how many of the combined sewage outlets were discharged, and, if so, were they discharged in combination with a storm event or another river spate event and, if so, why, and, if not, why not. So, it will be very interesting to see the outcome of Ofwat's review of whether or not water companies are using correctly the powers that they have in order to use the discharge properly. And just to remind people that the storm overflows at waste water treatment works—there are a lot of acronyms in this, so I'm trying to say them all out—perform an essential role to prevent the works from becoming overwhelmed during periods of heavy rain, which would have the effect of the sewage backing up into domestic properties. So, let's just be clear how important it is that that doesn't happen and the public health issues that that would then incur.

So, Welsh Water does have—. We have two water companies in Wales, just to be clear, and both of them have all of the rights and responsibilities under our environment Act and our future generations Act, some of which is being duplicated in England. But also, some of the—. Alun directly asked me why we didn't go in with the English legislation, and the answer is because we have a much more holistic understanding of what's causing spates in rivers, including some of the catchment area issues, and we're very focused on having as much natural flood protection and natural sewage protection as possible, and not just developing concrete channels to channel the water away towards the sea and so on. So, I'm very keen that we develop solutions that suit the ecology and particular river circumstances in Wales.

But, just to be clear, Dŵr Cymru obviously has the vast majority of the infrastructure in Wales, and they've installed event duration monitoring on 99 per cent of their storm overflow assets and the remainder will have them installed by the end of this year, by next year. All relevant data is available on the website, so you can see exactly what's happened with those. They are required to provide a summary of spill data from their monitors to NRW on an annual basis, and they provide real-time storm overflow alerts all year around at key bathing sites. So, already, in conjunction with Surfers Against Sewage, Dŵr Cymru allows registered users, through the Surfers Against Sewage safer seas campaign, to get real-time information on when a storm overflow begins to operate, how long it operates for and when it stops. So, anyone who wants to go bathing in the rivers can pick that information up, and it is really useful to have that if you're into wild water swimming, and I should declare an interest and say I definitely am into that. So, I have an acute understanding of the need to understand what exactly is happening.

And just to be clear, that should not happen unless the river is in spate, so in the middle of a big storm like a few of the ones we've had over the last few weeks. And that river would not be suitable for swimming in if it was in spate. You would not want to see people trying to go wild water swimming in a river that's in spate, that's coming up above its banks and so on. So, those are the circumstances, and only then should the storm overflows be being used. So, that's what the Ofwat investigation is going to be looking at to see whether those two things are in conjunction.

We also work closely with NRW to monitor and, where necessary, improve water quality of rivers across Wales. Dirprwy Lywydd, we have a very large number of things that we're doing, which I will run over my time if I try to read out, but included in them are the nutrient management boards that we have set up for various rivers, the SAC rivers, in Wales. We do have a piece of work going on with NRW to understand exactly how many incidents they attend—they attend the great majority of pollution incidents—how much the unit cost for that is, and what we can do to improve that so that all incidents reported by the public are attended. But, even when attending and an instant sample has been taken, it has not always been possible to identify the offender of the pollution incident, even where we've got relevant samples collected immediately. So, it is important to make sure that we have a whole series of measures in place to make sure that pollution incidents don't occur in the first place, as well as that we have sewers that are fit for purpose.

The other thing to say is that we have a large number of other things that we're looking to do. So, I know that the Conservatives are very keen to see this water quality done, and I welcome that, but of course one of the things that we're doing is including our underwater drainage system work in this, where we're getting all our new housing developments to put in that underwater drainage. The whole purpose of that is to prevent those sewers from overflowing back into the sewers that were built in Victorian times and not built for the numbers of houses that are on them. So, again, as my colleague Lee Waters said a number of times earlier in questions, you can't separate these things out. We have a climate emergency, it is causing extreme weather events, the extreme weather events need to be coped with inside our sewage system, inside our housing developments, inside our commercial developments, and at the waste water treatment works.

So, Alun, I'm going to be bringing forward legislation later on. I'm very happy to work with you on it to make sure that we do legislate for our sustainable drainage and waste water management systems and that we put those drainage and waste water management plans and we put those on a statutory footing. I absolutely intend to do that during this Senedd term. But the issue is that we have to do that inside the holistic framework that we need to control both pollution incidents and sewage outflow incidents along our rivers, to make sure that we capture both of those, and that—forgive the terrible cliché—upstream of that, inside the housing and commercial developments that we put in place, we have the right drainage and sewage solutions in place for those in the first place, so we're not overloading the system in the first place. Diolch.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Alun Davies to reply to the debate.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to all Members who've participated in our debate, or our conversation, actually—it felt more like a conversation between individuals rather than a more formal debate. I'm grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders for the way in which she described some of the impacts of plastic waste, and it played straight into some of the points that were made by Mike Hedges, talking about the importance of an ecosystem within a river, and to look at it then in the way that the Minister suggested, in a holistic sense.

When we debate and we discuss these matters together, the points made by Rhun ap Iorwerth in terms of the monitoring—. I do agree with you, very much so, that we need to look at how we monitor and we understand the impact of human activities in the widest sense on the water ecosystem, and we need to do that through the year to have the understanding of that whole impact on the ecosystem. I understand, and I'm familiar, clearly, with the Usk and the Wye, as you'd imagine, Peter, and one of the really, really traumatic issues I look at sometimes is the impact on the Wye at the moment. I think the Wye and Usk Foundation provided us with a route-map for how we manage water quality over a period of time. I'm not sure where we've gone wrong on that, and I would like to look again at that. I hope that the Minister will be able to work with Llyr and the committee on the undertakings she's given this afternoon, because, as Sam Kurtz pointed out quite rightly, there is at times a lot more that unites us than defends us—divides us, sorry.

Deputy Presiding Officer, in closing, I was reminded during the debate of a walk I took with the Member for Pontypridd and the Member for Ogmore along the Taff in Ponty, and we spoke about how the town was turning again to the river, and, in the conversation we had, I repeated an observation from a friend of mine in Tredegar who mentioned that, as the industrial revolution took hold in the development of our Valleys communities particularly, we turned our backs on our rivers. The rivers were put into culverts or the rivers were tarmacked over or concreted over and developed and forgotten about. The towns and the people turned their backs on the river. I hope, Minister, that that isn't what we would do here today. What you said in replying to the motion, to the debate, about the holistic approach is exactly the point that I think would unite the Chamber in support of the work that you're doing, and I hope that, over the coming Senedd, we will be able to see the legislation—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You need to conclude now.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

—that you suggested, Minister, and I hope that the relevant committee, in taking forward this work, will be able to recommend to this Senedd that we enact that legislation, and together all of us deliver the sort of framework that we require to take care of our rivers for future generations. Thank you very much.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Making Saint David's Day a bank holiday

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

We move now to item 6, Welsh Conservatives debate, making St David's Day a bank holiday. I call on Tom Giffard to move the motion.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by wishing you and everyone in this Chamber a very happy St David's Day? I am not a day late; I'm 364 days early instead. [Laughter.] There you go.

It's a real honour for me to open this Welsh Conservative debate today, tabled in the name of Darren Millar, and today's debate is simply one line, and it's that this Senedd

'Believes that Saint David's Day should be a bank holiday.'

To that end, I'm delighted to see that Members from Plaid Cymru, the Labour Party and Jane Dodds have all co-submitted this motion too. I really hope that the result of this debate today will be a true cross-party consensus on making our national day a bank holiday.

On that point—and I really didn't want to make a party political point today, but I felt I had to respond—I was really disappointed to see the education Minister yesterday in the media say that the Welsh Government had a long-standing campaign and that he was delighted to see the Welsh Conservatives lend their support. I remind the Minister—and it's disappointing that he's not here—that the Welsh Conservatives here in the Senedd have been calling for it for over a decade. [Interruption.] Well, I was very interested to see how long standing that Welsh Government support had been, so I looked back through the Record of Proceedings and I noted that, in 2018, Julie James, who was in Government at that time, said in a Plenary meeting, and I quote,

'I don't think we have any plans at all to make St David's Day a national public holiday'.

That was four years ago, so I'm delighted that the Welsh Government is now supporting the Welsh Conservatives' long-standing campaign. But, nevertheless, in the spirit of cross-party co-operation, I digress. But it's not only the 60 of us sat in this Chamber and on Zoom who think St David's Day should be a bank holiday, this is something that Welsh people support too. Not only did 10,000 people recently sign a petition calling for St David's Day to become a bank holiday, but a BBC Wales poll showed that 87 per cent of people in Wales also supported the idea.

We also know there are significant economic benefits to the day becoming a bank holiday. According to the Centre for Economics and Business Research, retail sales are traditionally boosted by 15 per cent for a bank holiday, with hospitality and catering boosted by 20 per cent. And, after facing tough measures and trying to bounce back from the pandemic, wouldn't it be a welcome change for these industries to have that long-term added benefit to them as well? There would be huge economic benefits for Wales if it were to happen. A 2018 study found that giving a bank holiday gave UK small shops an average extra boost of £253 in profit. That could boost the Welsh economy by millions of pounds. And, in 2019, before coronavirus struck, two bank holidays gave a boost of £118 million to small and medium-sized businesses in the UK.

And I think there are huge cultural benefits too, and a bank holiday on our national day gives us the opportunity to promote Wales to the rest of the world. Several organisations have already given their staff a St David's Day bank holiday, including Snowdonia National Park Authority. I believe that celebrations of this day shouldn't be just limited to those people, but all people across Wales. I also think that this bank holiday would be a fitting way to celebrate our heritage and our culture, alongside that economic and tourism boost—giving that industry a well-earned boost after the pandemic. Public holidays allow people to have additional recreational time, which typically helps create a positive impact on tourism and hospitality, and it would be a really welcome stimulus to the tourism industry, as bank holidays add around £50 million to tourism alone for the UK economy.

The Welsh Conservatives believe that a St David's Day bank holiday would draw thousands of visitors to our country to mark our special day, providing the Welsh economy and tourism with that big boost. And it works: a Scottish Parliament consultation found that respondents were supportive of the idea that the St Andrew's Day bank holiday boosted tourism in Scotland. St David's Day being made into a bank holiday is a fitting way to show the culture and history to the world. Campaigns such as Love Wales, Love Taste are helping to champion St David's Day across Wales and the rest of the UK, to celebrate Welsh food and drink. [Interruption.] I'm sitting next to the Member for the Vale of Clwyd, who is a keen advocate of the Denbigh plum. [Laughter.] There we go. It's nice for someone else to get that in the Record of Proceedings for a change.

We should be celebrating all that Wales has to offer and allow for as many people as possible to experience Wales's rich culture and history, and having a bank holiday would only help to champion those values. Yesterday, St David's Day was celebrated across the world by the Welsh diaspora. The Wales in London Society hosted a dinner at the Guildhall; the New York Welsh society celebrated at the Liberty NYC bar, in the shadow of the Empire State Building; and the Kansai St David's Society in Osaka, Japan, are hosting a week of virtual events that celebrate Wales. After the impact of COVID disruptions, isn't it great to see that celebrations are finally getting back to normal after a lengthy break, both in Wales and across the world? St David's Day is the perfect opportunity to enhance our country's global reputation, forging links with a wide range of people from all corners of the world.

People all across Wales should be able to enjoy a bank holiday on St David's Day, and it would be a wonderful moment for our country to celebrate and unite around our heritage and our culture. Those in Scotland and Northern Ireland have a bank holiday to celebrate their patron saints, with the Scottish Parliament making it a bank holiday in 2006, and the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2000. And I now believe that it's time for Wales to follow suit and have the same for our patron saint.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

But it is important that we bear in mind that it's not the only reason to have a bank holiday, that others have them too, but that it's a day when we can consider our culture and our heritage. This could be a day when we consider what it means to be Welsh in the year 2022. And, for me, the answer isn't cawl, rugby or dragons, but a modern Wales, and communities across the nation—communities who come together when times are tough. The Wales that I recognise is the Wales that dealt with coronavirus by going shopping on behalf of their neighbours; the Wales that I recognise is one that establishes community groups to help each other with things like mental health, for example; and the Wales that I recognise is one that stands united with the people of Ukraine. Of course, we are still the land of bards and song, but we are also a land of empathy.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

So, I'm really proud to be Welsh and I know that Wales has so much to offer the world, and I'm relentlessly optimistic about its future too. And I'll end by quoting our Prime Minister, who said yesterday,

'In short it is Wales and the Welsh who make the UK what it is today.'

And I couldn't agree more.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate before us, but I'd like to start today by taking you back on a history tour—not back to the age of David and the early saints, but far enough back to a time when Tom Giffard was wearing the short trousers of primary school and Gareth Davies was eating the Denbigh plum on his mother's lap, when Jack Sargeant had no beard and when I had a lot more hair on my head. Yes, 22 years ago to the first St David's Day at the National Assembly for Wales. In the Chamber in Tŷ Hywel, my father led a debate proposing that St David's Day become a bank holiday. He said this in opening the debate 22 years and a day ago:

'St David’s Day is more than a celebration. It is our national day and the day when we, the people of Wales, at home and the world over, can celebrate our past and present and charge our batteries for future endeavours.'

The proposal received unanimous support a lot longer ago than a decade, Tom Giffard. It had the unanimous support of the Assembly, support from all parties, including the Welsh Conservatives. But, in 2002, following delays and the dragging of feet, Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State, rejected the Assembly's request. And in 2005, with the Assembly now in its second term, and with Peter Hain as Secretary of State, my father asked for an update from Rhodri Morgan, and Rhodri's answer was:

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

'Westminster has rejected the Assembly's request, but negotiations are still ongoing.' Well, I don't know if they're still ongoing—

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

—now, but they haven't been very successful so far, have they?

And again in 2021, following a request by Gwynedd Council, the proposal to give Wales a bank holiday was rejected by the Westminster Government. Deja vu, groundhog day—call it what you like—but we've been here before. Despite the united voice of the Assembly and the Senedd on this issue, we've not made any progress in 22 years. Westminster Governments of every stripe—Labour, Conservative and even Liberal Democrats—and none of them have designated St David's Day as a bank holiday. Five Prime Ministers, seven Secretaries of State, all have said 'no'. This is not a partisan problem. We see today, as we saw 22 years ago, unanimous cross-party support in this Senedd. The problem is Westminster. Time and time again, we are being ignored.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

If the United Kingdom is a union of equals, as the muscular unionists and the not-so-muscular unionists like to throw around, then there would be parity between the nations—an equal opportunity for us to celebrate, to dance, to sing and to rest on the day of our patron saint. And as Tom Giffard said, during the past 22 years, Scotland and Northern Ireland have created extra bank holidays to celebrate their patron saints, and I hope our English neighbours will do the same soon. We're not asking for—.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Will you take an intervention?

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Of course.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I hesitate to stop you in full flow, but you say it's not the parties that are the problem, but Westminster. Would you therefore agree with me that rather than pass motions and send these requests to Westminster, these powers should be here for us to determine and for us to decide?

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Funny you say that, Alun, as my next sentence will be, 'For Wales needs to be able to decide when we have our own bank holidays.' [Laughter.]

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Instead of that, we're like Oliver Twist, aren't we, holding out our begging bowls, hoping for a few crumbs. Well, we should not have to rely on the charity of another Government to ensure that the day of our patron saint is a bank holiday. It was lovely to hear Tom Giffard speaking Welsh on Radio Cymru yesterday morning, and lovely to hear you speak Welsh today—stick with it, friend, do it again—but I regretted the fact that you then said on Radio Cymru that a bank holiday from May should be moved to 1 March. Well, more bank holidays are what are needed, Tom, not the status quo; creating equality with our friends in Scotland and Northern Ireland. There are 11 in Scotland, 10 in Northern Ireland, but only eight in England and Wales. Why? It doesn't make any sense.

I believe that the Welsh Government can follow in the footsteps of Gwynedd Council and designate a de facto bank holiday here in Wales. The leadership of Gwynedd Council has led to Snowdonia national park, Aberystwyth Town Council and a number of third sector organisations giving their workers a bank holiday.

Let me say that a lot has changed since the St David's Day debate in 2000, constitutionally and, of course, for us, personally—happy times and sad times; times of gain and times of loss. After all, 22 years is a long time. During that time, my father—.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I'll finish with this now, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

During that time, my father has lost the ability to speak entirely, but his words, and through them his voice, remain. He ended his speech by quoting the last words of our patron saint,

'Brothers and sisters, rejoice and keep your faith and your belief, and do the little things.'

My father, Deputy Presiding Officer, went further by saying this:

'Note the words "byddwch lawen", which mean celebrate, be joyful and, who knows, maybe even take the day off? Who are we to ignore the great man’s wishes?'

Well, friends, 22 years on, not only have the wishes of the great man, St David, been ignored, but also, time and time again—

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

You do need to conclude now.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

—the unanimous voice of the Assembly and the Senedd. I sincerely hope, friends, that we will not be back here in another 22 years having the same debate. Thank you very much.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

To start, I am a proud Welshman.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

As a proud Welshman, I do echo the words of Rhys ab Owen and his father in what he just said there. This is a really welcome debate today, and it is great to see that the motion is laid by all parties of the Senedd. I do hope that the UK Government are not only listening, but that they are listening with an intention to make sure that we can make this decision here in our Parliament.

Tom Giffard, you're right: we don't have enough bank holidays, as Rhys ab Owen echoed. What better day to have an extra bank holiday than on St David's Day? It's a great opportunity to celebrate Wales, but also, for many, just to get some time back.

But it's worth remembering, Dirprwy Lywydd, that not everyone gets a bank holiday off, and we should be looking further at improving ways to improve their work-life balance as well. Members will know that I'm a keen advocate of a four-day week, because I recognise that giving people time back offers a benefit in productivity. We recognise that we work the longest hours in Europe, yet we have a lower productivity rate than most.

For those wondering in these conversations today whom to thank in the past for those bank holidays that we have here in the United Kingdom, it's the trade unions. My message today to Members across the Chamber and to the people of Wales is to join a union; join the fight in solidarity with our comrades for a better work-life balance.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I won't test your patience, as others have in this debate, but can I please finish on this comment by endorsing our bold leader—our bold First Minister—and his message just yesterday, where he called for random acts of Welshness? By that, he meant good deeds. Spread the act of Welshness and spread the act of kindness, whether that's eating a leek, planting a Denbigh plum tree, drinking some Wrexham Lager or whatever it is you might do. But, please, spread that Welshness and spread that kindness, friends, on St David's Day and every single day across the year. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

My thanks to Darren Millar for tabling this afternoon's motion. Members of the Siambr who follow me on social media will know that this is a cause that I am incredibly passionate about. Like Rhys ab Owen, I sincerely hope we're not still here in 22 years' time debating this very topic. However, I don't wish to use my brief remarks this afternoon to dwell on the politics. I'd rather talk about the many things that make Wales and the Welsh great and worthy of a national bank holiday, to celebrate and recognise the enormous contribution that our people, culture, and history have made to not only the United Kingdom but to the world.

Firstly, our culture and our sense of hiraeth, our nation's belonging and our longing for our nation, the notion that no matter how far from Wales you are your ears will prick up when you hear a word or two of Welsh or a Welsh accent. You'll inevitably have mutual friends or acquaintances. I saw this first-hand when, as a teenager, I visited the Gambia in Africa. One morning, I heard 'bore da' from one of the local Gambian tour guides, Mustapha Bojang, who would end up showcasing his beautiful country to us, and he had friends in Saundersfoot. And from our eisteddfodau and cymanfa ganus or even the Urdd's jamborees, our history of storytelling, singing and of coming together to revel in our culture is a cornerstone of what makes Wales great.

Speaking of 'great' brings me on to my second point, which is our sport, a source of social cohesion and national ambition. Wales is the homeland of an undisputed boxing champion, a Tour de France winner, Grand Slam victors, Grand Slam darts winners, and champion Olympic gold medallists. Our sport is a tool for tackling poor mental health and a leverage for inward investment. Without doubt, sport has transformed lives and enhanced communities across Wales. And whilst we may be a small nation, we always seem to find ourselves punching well above our weight and defying the odds—not bad for a nation with just over 3 million people. But this brings me back to that sense of cohesion, belonging and community. Our sporting heroes are amongst us here in Wales, not faraway idols. I believe we're closer to our sports superstars than many other countries, and so we share in their victories and their defeats more so than some other nations.

This brings me on to my third point, our community. Speaking today and having witnessed our response to the war and conflict in Ukraine, it is unquestionable that Wales in 2022 is an open, tolerant and compassionate nation, whose humanity and empathy exist beyond our own borders and communities. And that is exactly what makes Wales so incredibly special. Our spirit of community is entrenched in every institution, every tradition, and every practice. It marks the very foundations of this very Senedd, and it is a characteristic that each and every one of us in this Siambr share.

This brings me on to my fourth point, our long and rich history of Welsh men and women serving in our armed forces. We are all aware of our deep historical tradition and commitment in the Welsh armed forces, a tradition that has seen the Royal Welsh battlegroup deployed to Estonia to support our European and NATO allies in efforts to support Ukraine and fight back against aggression. As well as those serving, Wales is a proud home to a number of veterans, and just yesterday it was announced by the UK Government that Colonel James Phillips was appointed Wales's first ever veterans commissioner, someone who our veterans can rely on to enhance support and scrutinise Government policy.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

And finally, my fifth point, our language. Everyone speaks the language with pride, and that's the exact point: the Welsh language belongs to everyone and it plays a crucial role in our heritage, our history and our culture. Yesterday, I stood here and talked about how a nation's identity is not only based on culture and tradition, but also on community.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

As I finish, I reflect on the words of Laugharne's most famous son, Dylan Thomas, who said of Wales, 'The land of my fathers? My fathers can have it!' Dare I say it, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Welsh poet is as wrong now as he was then. Indeed, Wales is the best place on earth, and I believe it is only right that we have a national holiday to reflect and recognise that. Diolch.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

May I thank the Conservatives for bringing this issue forward, and thank Tom for opening this debate? It was wonderful to hear you make a contribution in Welsh. Thank you for that.

Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrat, Mid and West Wales)

We can have a little competition, I think, between ourselves in the Welsh liberals and Welsh Labour, because bank holidays were actually first introduced in 1871 by Sir John Lubbock, who was a Liberal MP who drafted the Bank Holidays Bill. However, I would pay tribute to the trade unions, who have absolutely embedded in our culture that sense that we need a work-life balance. COVID, as we've all learned, haven't we, has actually made us rethink our lives in terms of what's important to us, and maybe what's not so important to us now, which is about not working our socks off, but having that time with our family and our friends and our communities is actually what's important. As we've heard—and again, Jack has mentioned this—it's really important we remember all of those people who work through bank holidays and through weekends as well. We need to pay tribute to them—our care workers, our shop workers, our factory workers, those working in health. We need to make sure that they are properly supported and compensated as well.

We all remember, those of us who were at school, those eisteddfods, those Dydd Gŵyl Dewis where we would dress up. For me, my hat, when I was about six years old, was actually bigger than me. We all remember those eisteddfods that we would have throughout the day as children, and we would be celebrating Dydd Gŵyl Dewi. That's what we need to think about in terms of us moving forward. We've heard that Wales is the most amazing country. We've got the Welsh language, we've got plygains. Don't forget, in mid and west Wales, we have those celebrations of plygain, which is about singing. We've got sheep. We've got sheep that beat any other country in the world. We've got our culture. We've got sport, we've got so much more. We need to make sure that the world and this country knows that we are proud to be Welsh, and that's why we need a Welsh bank holiday that is about St David's Day. Diolch yn fawr iawn.