Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 6 October 2021

262 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome to this afternoon's Plenary session. Before we begin, I need to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on your agenda. I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question, to be answered by the Deputy Minister, is to be asked by Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage greener transport? OQ56949

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the question. Our strategy for encouraging greener transport is clearly set out in 'Llwybr Newydd: the Wales Transport Strategy 2021', which reiterates our determination to achieve more active travel, greater use of public transport and low-emission vehicles, and creating closer links between land-use planning and transport in line with the clean air plan for Wales.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thanks, Deputy Minister. I have a feeling you enjoyed that question. Surveys by the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales show that many firms are looking to adopt electric vehicles in the next five to 10 years, which is great news. However, at present, the cost of electric vehicles and the lack of charging infrastructure are key barriers to businesses wishing to decarbonise transport. This cost runs the risk of leaving small businesses out of the EV system, whereas larger organisations may have greater resources to include this new technology in their working environments. What plan do you have, Deputy Minister, to incentivise the shift to electric vehicles by introducing tax incentives or scrappage schemes as has happened previously?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the important question, and clearly we’re in a transition from the internal combustion engine to electric cars, and the UK Government have said that, by the end of the decade, you won’t be able to buy petrol or diesel cars. So, this is a scheme that we’ll need to work closely with the UK Government on, because as to your question on scrappage schemes and tax incentives, that is clearly something that the UK Government needs to be doing. It’s not something that we have the ability to do. But there are a range of things that we can do and, working with local authorities, we’re about to publish our electric vehicle charging action plan in the coming weeks, and that sets out a series of practical things that we are doing.

In terms of the point about the affordability of the vehicles and the availability currently of the infrastructure, clearly, we’re at the first wave of development. They’re expensive because they’re brand-new cars. There is yet not a second-hand car market developed, so, over time, that clearly will change. In terms of the charging infrastructure, Wales has got about 2 per cent of electric vehicles and we’ve got about 3.5 per cent of the public charging infrastructure. So, as that demand curve sharpens, as it is showing increasing signs of doing, we clearly need to increase the charging infrastructure. That’s something that’s going to be led by the private sector. The Government doesn’t provide petrol stations; I don’t expect it to be providing electric charging at scale. What we should be focusing on is looking at where the market is going to be failing, particularly for rural areas, just as we have with broadband, and taking an outside-in approach. So, we absolutely have a role to play, but it’s a role to play with many others.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Could I first of all welcome the investment in that charging infrastructure that we’re now going to see within the Bridgend area, which is £450,000 being invested in kerbside parking charging facilities? That is really welcome. But would the Minister agree with me that, actually, greener transport is also tied up with what we do with moving people into active transport as well? And would he welcome the fact that the cross-party group, which I have the privilege of chairing and which many Members here are on, with the active travel group, will be launching next Tuesday in Penyrheol school in Gorseinon, with the headteacher and with the pupils there, the toolkit for schools to move to active travel? Because that's the secret not only to children moving to cycling and walking to school, but also their parents not driving their children to school as well, and choosing to walk with them and to find alternative means. So, it's lifting cars off the road as well as moving to electric cars.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I think that's an absolutely central point—we don't want simply to transfer the existing fleet of cars from petrol and diesel over to electric; we want fewer cars on the road, for all sorts of reasons that cars cause harm. But we want to give people choice, and we can do that by providing electric car clubs—something I'm very keen on—with communities having easy access to a car club so they don't need to own multiple cars in the family. But also, we're looking at shifting—. This is what modal shift is about—moving from cars to others, public transport and, for local journeys, active travel.

And I must commend Huw Irranca-Davies for the work and leadership he's shown through the active travel group. For newer Members, who are still getting to grips with cross-party groups, I would say the cross-party group on active travel is among the most effective, and that is in large part because of the cross-party buy-in, the fact that it brings groups from around Wales together, and then for the close relationship Huw Irranca-Davies has with the Government, feeding that challenge through to Ministers to try and get change. And I'm very pleased that you are launching the toolkit for schools, because, clearly, disrupting the current pattern of journeys to school is an essential part of achieving modal shift, and I wish him luck with that launch.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on the progress of the north Wales metro? OQ56973

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Yes. I recently agreed a further £9.3 million of funding to local authorities and Transport for Wales for projects supporting the development and delivery of the north Wales metro, including enhancements to active travel, bus and rail infrastructure across the north.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your updates on the progress of the north Wales metro. And I'm sure Members from across the Chamber will welcome the speeding up of this project, actually, and the benefits it could have for the people of north Wales. Initially, these plans were proposed in 2016, for delivery in around 2035—so, a nearly 20-year timescale to see a north Wales metro take place. I'm not sure that's acceptable any more, and certainly in times of a climate emergency and encouraging more people onto public transport. So, I'd ask the Deputy Minister what he will do to speed up this programme of work and see this programme of work expand in north Wales.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Well, the metros in different parts of Wales are at different ranges of development. The south Wales metro, for example, is more advanced, and it's a massively complex project. The one in north Wales is a different mix of modes—there are fewer train lines than you have in the south Wales Valleys, for example, and so bus has a far greater role to play, as does active travel. I think one of the challenges we have is the capacity of local authorities. I had a meeting with local authority leaders this morning, along with the rest of my Cabinet colleagues, and we discussed this—how we can use the corporate joint committees to pool knowledge and know-how and people to try and create extra capacity, working alongside Transport for Wales.

Again, we have an example in Newport, where the Burns delivery unit has created a model where Transport for Wales, the local authority and the Welsh Government are working cheek by jowl to deliver the schemes set out in the Burns report. And that, I think, could be a model for the north. I had a meeting with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board transport sub-group—that's a mouthful, isn't it—on Friday morning, in which I discussed this very challenge, and I asked them to think about how they'd be willing to pool resources together and how we could help them, both to fund that and to make sure it's operationalised. But the north Wales metro, I think, has got huge potential. It will happen in phases, but, given the imperative of acting on climate change and achieving modal shift, it is a key development for the region.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

As a Flintshire councillor, and previous streetscene and highways cabinet member, and also a member of the committee you mentioned earlier, I'm aware of the significant funding across the region—metro funding. However, to raise awareness and increase engagement across north Wales, we need to have delivery of the distinctive metro branding linking the stations, bus transport, cycle routes and park-and-rides that Welsh Government have funded, working with local authorities. Also, artists' impressions of proposed new stations would be really good as well. It would just help raise awareness and increase engagement with our communities of the work that's taking place and is due to take place in the future. Would the Deputy Minister provide an update regarding the metro branding and signage that I believe Transport for Wales were to lead on in 2021? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, thank you for the question, and I certainly agree with you that branding imagery is really important to generate an excitement amongst people that change is coming, and to give people faith that change is coming too. So, I take the point on board. I am discussing this with TfW around the south Wales metro, so I promise to add that to the conversations I'm having and keep the Member updated; I think it's a strong point she makes.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank my colleague from across the Chamber, Mr Rowlands, for tabling this important question, and I do agree with my colleague Carolyn Thomas as well because it is an important question. It's important that the north Wales metro delivers for generations to come, and it is that transport network, as the Minister agrees, that north Wales does deserve.

For residents in Alyn and Deeside, this is about delivering the Flintshire corridor to act as a spine of the north Wales metro, but it's also about creating key transport hubs to achieve a fully integrated, multimodal system. Does the Minister agree with me that delivering the Flintshire corridor is essential to ensure residents in my community of Alyn and Deeside will benefit from the north Wales metro, a very important project?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I ought to commend the Member on his ingenuity of trying to present this in this way. Of course, the Flintshire corridor is a 13 km, two-lane dual carriageway, so it's not immediately apparent to me that it's an integral part of the north Wales metro, and also it is covered by the roads review scheme, and I couldn't pre-empt what decisions they make, because, obviously, as part of the review, new road schemes do have a role. We're not ruling out any new road building, but it should not be the default solution to any transport problems. I think that needs to be the big change. So, I anticipate seeing far fewer road schemes, and that those road schemes that are taken forward have a very clear criteria and reason for them. Whether or not the Flintshire corridor meets those tests is something that the roads review scheme will be looking at over the next year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, as you'll know, over recent months I've been extremely concerned about the number of river pollution incidents. I know I'm not alone in this, as many pollution incidents have been raised with me on a regular basis. Now, let me be clear, and for avoidance of doubt, I am certainly not pointing the finger of blame at our farmers. Now, having undertaken research, I am concerned about the number of releases by Dŵr Cymru made through each combined sewer overflow over the last four years. The findings are actually very startling. The number of spills recorded by Welsh Water using the 12/24 block counting method in 2018 were 48,158; 2019—73,517; 2020—104,482, and to date this year, 59,275. As I have repeatedly said, and many in our group have echoed, one pollution incident is one too many. Now, whilst the data for this year needs to be quality assured, the figures indicate that the total duration of all spills prior to processing through the 12/24-hour counting method is 516,270.5 hours. So, if you divide that by 24, we reach the startling fact that Wales has seen 21,511 days' worth of non-stop spills this year alone. So, would you agree with me, Minister, that the combined overflow situation in Wales can now be considered as a crisis? Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, Janet, you make a very good point, which is that there are a number of reasons why we need to look at water pollution incidents across Wales, and, of course, they're not all attributed to a single source. So, we all need to work together in Team Wales to make sure that we reduce any kind of pollution incidents that affect our water tables, our river waters, our inland waters or, indeed, our coastal waters, and we need to do that together. So, all sectors need to work hard to do that. Our agriculture and farming sectors need to work just as hard as, obviously, the water companies, sewage companies, industrial polluters along the river banks, and a large number of other people who both rely on the water courses and, of course, require the water courses to be clean and in good conservation order.

There are a number of things to say about that. First of all, we're working very hard with the water companies at the moment to make sure that the pricing mechanisms that are put in place allow them to make the right kinds of investments for the future, so that we can invest in the network and make sure that it is efficient, effective and works very hard.

We're also doing a review of a number of regulatory areas to make sure that the current breakdown of who does what in regulation terms, and the Welsh Government, companies like Welsh Water, utilities companies and so on, NRW, local authorities—who all have skin in the game, as the expression goes, on this—have the right level of regulatory and delivery mechanisms inside their particular bits, and, more importantly, that they fit seamlessly together as a whole and people can understand who's responsible for delivering what and for regulating what. So, that's part of it as well.

And, then, you'll know as well as I do, that we all have some responsibility personally for this as well, because a lot of the sewage spills in particular are as a result of people putting completely inappropriate things into the sewer. So, I had a conversation only this week about what we can do at UK level particularly, actually, and you can help with this—I know you feel the same as I do—to make sure that the labelling on products is actually accurate, so that we don't have things like wet wipes and cotton buds and things like that, that say 'biodegradable' when they really aren't, or say 'flushable'—even worse—when they really aren't, and we can make sure that people are not causing blockages in the system that then cause incidents. So, we all have a responsibility to do this, but I can assure you that we're very happy to work with you and a range of other people right across Wales, in a team approach, to make sure that we have the right kinds of responses to these sorts of incidents.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. And I'm really glad that I've succeeded in getting that on the record, that you actually do understand that there is an issue there.

But going specifically back to our water companies, during this year, 23 different locations have seen over 2,000 hours' worth of spills each, five locations over 3,000 hours' worth and four over 4,000 hours. So, such has been my concern that I have written to you, and you responded to me stating, and I quote, 'The Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales are working with Wales's water companies to develop drainage and waste water management plans, otherwise known as DWMPs, for the next 25 years. The plans will help ensure that our water companies invest strategically and transparently for a waste water treatment network that is resilient and affordable in the long and short term.'

Now, only recently, in our Deganwy estuary, in my constituency, a large number of residents complained about floating raw sewage and a horrendous odour, and this went on for quite some time. So, having then brought this to the attention of Dŵr Cymru, action was not taken immediately and this persuaded me then to report the situation directly to NRW. And, I'm sorry, but in a number of these instances, Minister, enforcement action taken by NRW cannot be considered to be anywhere near robust enough. Only a few weeks ago, the finger of blame for pollution in our rivers was pointed towards our farmers, and the draconian system of nitrate vulnerable zones was implemented. So, Minister, what steps are you taking to ensure that our water companies—[Interruption.]—play a more responsible role themselves in not allowing—? Do you want to make an intervention? [Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

There are no interventions in questions.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

And, when they occur, that more robust action is taken by the companies and NRW as the regulator.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

So, again, I think the conclusion you're coming to is a bit of a stretch from the set of facts that you're presenting, basically. So, as I said in my first answer, I'll just reiterate it: there are, of course, a number of players that affect the watercourses and water quality across Wales. They go from every single one of us to our communities, to our industries, to the people who use the water, and who discharge it into our river systems. That includes, of course, the water companies, but it also includes farmers and agri-businesses, and everybody must play their part. Everybody must reduce their emissions, everybody has to go ahead with a greener, cleaner way of using our watercourses, or we will not get them back into good conservation order and increase our biodiversity and, indeed, our water quality.

So, of course, we will need to work together, and, as I said, we're undertaking a review of where the regulation sits, where the delivery sits, whether it's in exactly the right place, whether it's effective, whether it's not effective, and how we can increase both our regulation and our delivery partners' ability to improve our watercourses. So, we're all trying to get to the same place. But it's not a question of pointing a finger of blame, everyone must do their part and that absolutely does include the farmers.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Minister. Now, on another topic, I am concerned that planning applications are at a standstill due to the new targets for phosphate pollution in rivers. The Home Builders Federation have informed me that the delivery of all new homes, both affordable and private, is being affected in numerous authorities, including Monmouth, Newport, Carmarthenshire, Wrexham, Flintshire, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire, Brecon Beacons national park and Powys. In fact, the Welsh Government's written response to Monmouth council's preferred strategy for its replacement local development plan states that:

'The Deposit Plan and associated HRA must demonstrate nutrient neutrality or betterment in order to be considered sound.'

Whilst I am familiar with the special areas of conservation management oversight group, the planning sub-group and the NRW project board with its several work streams, could you just clarify to me how an LPA is to demonstrate nutrient neutrality when there is no agreed solution or guidance as yet offered by your Welsh Government? Diolch.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, so again, this is about not being able to have your cake and eat it. So, you can't both say that you're in favour of doing something to mitigate climate change and then complain about every single measure that we put in place in order to do that. So, we have to do things differently. Councils have to step up to this, alongside all the other partners. We cannot continue to just build willy-nilly all over our floodplains, regardless of the pollution, regardless of the sewerage systems that you have just been telling me about, regardless of the ability of the infrastructure to cope with that and keep our watercourses clean. So, we absolutely have to do things differently.

So, this is about getting a group of people together to make sure that we work together across all players—and we've already listed them numerous times today—all players in Wales, to make sure that, when we do build things, we build them to the right quality with the right systems in place, that they do not overburden the current sewerage systems, that they do not burden the treatment plants to the point where we have the spillages that you've just been telling me about, and that we do that so that we enhance and increase both the water quality and the biodiversity. There isn't any other way forward. We cannot just complain that we can't build on the one hand and say that we love the planet and want to do something about it on the other. Those two things are just not compatible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Minister, I'd like to ask you firstly about environmental governance. Environmental Standards Scotland has commenced its statutory role as an independent environmental governance body. Scotland has also put in place core environmental principles, with associated duties and guidance, and the Westminster Environment Bill is expected to pass this autumn with the office for environmental protection set to provide independent oversight in England and Northern Ireland. There's a pattern emerging everywhere else. Welsh stakeholders recommended equivalent actions for Wales in spring 2020, yet we still don't have a firm commitment to a time frame for legislation, leaving Wales with this indefinite governance gap. Citizens' access to justice for breaches of environmental law have been diminished and the environment is being less well protected. So, Minister, will you commit firmly please to bringing forward the promised legislation on environmental governance and principles in the second year of this Senedd?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Delyth. You and I have discussed this matter a number of times, and I absolutely appreciate what you say. We could, of course, have looked at going in with the UK Government on their arrangements, but we considered, and I'm sure you agree, that they do not suit the situation that we have here in Wales and we'd be far better off to have our own system in place.

We have, as you know, an interim arrangement in place, and we are committed to bringing forward suitable-for-Wales governance arrangements. The First Minister will be making—well, I'm not sure if it's the First Minister or the Counsel General, but one of them will be making a statement to the Senedd shortly about the next years of the legislative programme, and it's for them to do that and not for me. But we are working very hard behind the scenes to make sure that we have both the ability and the skill and talent to bring together all the separate strands to make sure that, when we present the governance arrangements through the committees for scrutiny and to the floor of the Senedd, they will be fit for purpose. So, I absolutely accept what you say, but we are in the process of working to make sure that we have all of the arrangements in place so that we can get the best possible governance arrangements for Wales. I didn't think it was appropriate to join in with the English system in this instance because we wanted to do that. I'm afraid that has meant there is a delay, but I do think in the end that's the better course.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Okay. I look forward to hearing that statement when it comes.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'll be asking the next question in Welsh, Minister. Over the past year, we've seen important commitments for nature on the UK level through the leaders' pledge for nature, the High Ambition Coalition for Nature and People, and the G7 2030 nature compact. The commitment is to safeguard 30 per cent of land and sea for nature by the year 2030. It's a key milestone. It's referred to as 30x30, and it's supported by the UK and Scottish Governments and has been approved in Northern Ireland. If we take action now, then this could be achieved. Natural Resources Wales has made that clear, too, but there's no declaration of support for 30x30 from the Welsh Government yet. Would you, Minister, now be able to commit to effective safeguarding of 30 per cent of land and sea in Wales by that year, namely 2030?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Delyth. Thank you very much. I really do admire your attempts to make me declare Government policy as part of questions, but I'm going to resist the temptation.

Of course we're very interested in being able to join with such a scheme; we are looking to see whether that's something we want to do very formally in that way here in Wales or whether there are other routes for Wales to do that. We are very determined to protect our natural landscapes and very, very determined to put them back into good conservation order. So, I've had a range of meetings with concerned groups all over Wales in different types of landscapes. It's been an education and a privilege to talk to them all. So, diverse areas such as wooded landscapes, the Gwent levels, the long grass where the curlew calls, the blanket bogs, the wetlands; we have a range of landscapes that require both investment and, I have to say, help for the laudable numbers of people who are already working across Wales to both protect and enhance our landscapes.

We will be in position to say something to the Senedd, Llywydd, in due course, but I'm going to resist, I'm afraid, Delyth, the temptation that you're offering me, the dangling jewel of just doing it now. So, I won't be doing that just now, but I look forward to being able to announce something in due course.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. Obviously, making commitments of this nature, they're symbolic, and so many of these principles that underpin the commitments are fundamentally important, so I won't make any apology for calling on you to make another commitment in my final question, in fact, which is about the declaration of the nature emergency that we as a Senedd made in June, which we were all so pleased to have seen as another milestone. That was a vital element of this motion that was carried, which called on the Welsh Government to introduce legally binding requirements to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets. I know again that I'm asking you about targets and so on, but these things—as I'm sure you'll agree—are hugely important in driving how these policies are put into place.

A Bill on environmental governance and principles would offer the ideal vehicle to do this, but, Minister, in your recent correspondence with the climate change committee when you were referring to the legislative consent memorandum on the UK Environment Bill, you declined to commit to taking this vital opportunity. You said that we have to wait for the conclusion of COP15 in May 2022 before taking that decision. Now I understand, of course, why in many ways you would wish to see the outcome of that, but waiting might not be a luxury that we can afford. Wales is among the most nature-depleted countries in the world. Surely we could lead the way by setting high ambitions ahead of COP15, forge ahead with vital primary legislation to set headlines, so that we can, yes, halt and start to reverse biodiversity loss in Wales by 2030, and achieve recovery by 2050. So, Minister, the final commitment that I will call on you to make is: will you commit to using the environmental principles and governance Bill to introduce a legally binding requirement to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Again, Delyth, I'm going to resist, I'm afraid, the clarion call that you are offering me, but I do understand it, of course. What we want to do is we want to make sure that—. We've declared the nature emergency; we all agree with what you're saying about biodiversity loss and the need to protect our landscapes, of course we do. What we want to do is make sure that we have the measures in place to protect and enhance those landscapes. Of course we will set targets—that's how you hold our feet to the fire—but the targets themselves don't do anything, they just measure whether we succeed or fail. What we need is the action plans in place to make sure that we actually do the work, and I want to do that together with Members of the Senedd and the committees and with external scientific advisers. We're assembling a sort of TAG team, technical advisory group, that will help us do that and with the many groups of amateur experts across the country who have worked so very hard in their particular spheres, to understand and know what needs to be done in their particular landscapes. So, I'm not going to rush it; we will put the targets in place for our feet to be held to that fire, but much more importantly, we will work very hard on making sure we have the right set of action plans across Wales to put in place that protection and enhancement that we need, and that's not something we can do quickly. I want to make sure that those plans are correct, that they don't have unintended consequences, and that we protect all of the right landscapes in the right places. So, that's not a quick fix, but it is a fix, and I absolutely understand the need to put targets in place once we've agreed those actions, to make sure that we then do what we say.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

3. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government plans to designate the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley as a national park? OQ56955

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you for the question, Carolyn. We are committed to creating a new national park for Wales covering the breathtaking Clwydian range and Dee valley. Work is under way with Natural Resources Wales to develop a comprehensive designation programme that will include all the necessary assessment, engagement and consultation.

Carolyn Thomas (Labour, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I know many people in the local area are excited at the prospect of this designation, which will provide recognition of the park's unique natural beauty and heritage. It will provide a boost to manage tourism and help to create sustainable jobs. In 2000, the Scottish Labour Government introduced a National Parks (Scotland) Act of just 41 pages, which was a streamlined procedure to designate two national parks in Scotland, the Cairngorms and Loch Lomond, and meant that it took four years. Public consultation still went ahead in phases 1 and 2, which I think is one of the main concerns. Would the Minister provide an update on the planned timescale for achieving the national park status? I'm just worried that it might take a long time. Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you very much, Carolyn. I share your concern, actually. The First Minister and I asked officials to carry out a really rigorous exercise looking at the range of legislative and non-legislative options available to achieve the aims that we want. We got really detailed legal advice on it. You're absolutely right that the National Parks (Scotland) Act altered the designation processes in Scotland, and subsequent to that, designations did go faster—about two to three years. But the actual legislation itself took a very long time to draft and introduce, so you've got to factor in the primary legislative change as well as the designation.

I think overall in Wales, we've decided that that probably isn't the fastest way to go, although I do understand the temptation and we did look at it very carefully. We want to do the whole thing in this particular term. We don't want to put the primary legislation in place and then designate. We think we've found a way to do that. We think we've found a way to do it making sure that we have all the right engagement and consultation. We need to take into account all the views of local people, and in the end we may not do it, if that's what the consultation says. But we very much hope to be able to make the case for the national park and the protections that it offers, and actually the enhanced life opportunities for the people who live inside the national park as well. But yes, we have looked very hard at what the quickest way of doing it is, and I think we have decided to go with the current system and the processes that that entails.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

After the Welsh Government announced its plans to turn the Clwydian range and Dee valley area of outstanding natural beauty into a national park, concern was raised with me by people whose living comes from the business of farming livestock and land within the area of outstanding natural beauty. What discussion and engagement did you therefore have with people whose living comes from the business of farming livestock and land within the Clwydian range and Dee valley area of outstanding natural beauty before making your announcement? If none, what plans do you have to engage with them now in order to establish and address the questions, needs and realities on the ground?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Mark. Obviously, what we've got here is an ambition, so what we need to do now is go through all of the processes necessary to see whether that ambition is an ambition shared with the people who live in the area that we would very much like to designate for the enhanced protection that that brings. But of course we will go through those consultation exercises carefully and make sure that we have as wide an engagement as possible with all of the people who live, work and play in the area that's encompassed by the area of the proposed national park. We will embark on that process with an absolutely open mind to make sure that we take all of those views on board, whilst at the same time hoping very much that we can persuade people that the added protection and designation that a national park can bring will both enhance the tourist offer and the lives and livelihoods of the people who live within the area. That's a process that we will embark on with a full consultation and engagement process in mind, and obviously we'll keep the Senedd informed as that process continues.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

4. What is the Welsh Government doing to help connect more properties in north Wales to superfast broadband? OQ56945

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the question. Responsibility for connectivity lies with the UK Government, but we continue to step in to provide connectivity. Seven thousand five hundred and eight premises have now been given access to full fibre in north Wales under the Welsh Government's £56 million full fibre roll-out. We continue to provide connectivity solutions through our local broadband fund and our access-to-broadband scheme.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

That's excellent to hear, Minister. Given the Welsh Government's commitment to combating the climate emergency, and also given the huge rise in the number of people who are working remotely and working from home as a result of coronavirus, would you agree with me that broadband should be regarded as a universal service, like the Royal Mail, and should be available to all?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

That is the key point in the debate that we need to keep emphasising. This is now an essential utility service. I hear from Members across the Chamber about difficulties their constituents have getting connected, and it is a real impediment to being able to carry out essential functions in society. But the UK Government, who have responsibility for broadband, refuse, either through ideology or through inertia, to take the action necessary to make sure everybody has a right to be connected. As a result, we see a hodgepodge of pragmatic schemes being devised to try and get round what is essentially a structural flaw. As you say, Royal Mail, a privately run company, has a legal obligation to deliver for the same cost a universal service, and the same must apply for broadband.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Laura Jones. No. I'll move on.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 5, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on community transport provision in the Cynon Valley? OQ56960

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Cynon Valley is currently served by a community transport scheme operated by Accessible Caring Transport. Rhondda Cynon Taf council provide financial support for this service, using the bus services support grant provided by the Welsh Government and their own funds.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Accessible Caring Transport provides a lifeline for those in need of community transport in my constituency, and it's been at the forefront of providing transport for clients to essential healthcare during the pandemic. As the Deputy Minister will know, the Wales Co-operative Party manifesto, 'Owning the Future', commits Labour and Co-operative MSs like myself to protect the indispensable role of community transport. So, will the Deputy Minister agree to meet with me and other Labour and Co-operative MSs to discuss the promotion and protection of the sector, as well as the scope for encouraging the growth of co-operative and social enterprise providers of community transport in Wales?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Yes, of course, I'd be happy to meet my fellow Wales Co-operative Members of the Senedd to discuss this. Community transport has an important part to play as part of the mix of solutions we see to achieve modal shift. We are trialling, of course, with Transport for Wales, our own Fflecsi bus service, which adopts a similar principle to community transport of providing a flexibility to meet people's needs, putting the user first. I'm conscious that Accessible Caring Transport in the Member's constituency was designed specifically for those who find it difficult or impossible to use conventional buses, and provides an important gap in the market. How we are able to continue to do this and how Rhondda Cynon Taf are able to afford to continue to do it, given the budget challenges we all face, is a live question, and I'd be very happy to discuss that with her and other Members.

Joel James (Conservative, South Wales Central)

As the Deputy Minister will be aware, the Connecting Communities programme has ended earlier than planned, because the Welsh Government's invitation and selection of the project was not in accordance with requirements of European regulations. The Connecting Communities programme has been a lifeline for vulnerable people to be able to access vital services, and for them to maintain a level of freedom they would otherwise be unable to achieve. I'm sure that the Deputy Minister will agree with me that there is significant need for support to continue to grow community travel facilities, particularly in rural and semi-rural locations like the Vale of Glamorgan and RCT, where transport links can be unreliable. Can the Deputy Minister outline what discussions they have had with the community links association in order to provide a new stream of funding for community travel? Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I will have to write to the Member about the detail of that. It's not immediately available off the top of my head. However, the broad point he makes is a fair one, as I've just indicated, in the question, and I'd be happy to follow up.FootnoteLink

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

6. What guidance does the Welsh Government provide to companies that use Welsh land for carbon offsetting purposes? OQ56962

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you for the question.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The woodland carbon code is a voluntary standard for woodland creation projects in the UK. It is backed by all four Governments and provides a mechanism for landowners to engage in the carbon market. The code's website provides guidance to projects that are interested in carbon sequestration from woodlands.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Minister. It's true to say that there is general support for the Welsh Government's aim of seeing Wales become a carbon-neutral nation by 2050, but it's clear that there are problems in the carbon market at the moment, particularly in terms of how this impacts our agricultural land. In a series of responses to written questions from me, the Government has now confirmed that public funds through the Glastir scheme are being provided to companies outwith Wales for them to plant trees. Whole farms across Wales are being bought for this purpose, with multinational companies selling the carbon on the international market. Unfortunately, when a piece of farmland is sold in this way, this land is no longer available for Welsh farmers for carbon offsetting, and just as importantly it won't be available either to help the Welsh Government to reach its target of being net zero. So, what's the solution to the problem? Well, we could change the funding system or use the planning system. So, Minister, does the Welsh Government recognise that there is a problem here, and are you willing to take steps by changing the funding system and the planning system in order to tackle this problem? Thank you.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We absolutely do acknowledge that there's potential for a real problem here, but at the same time we currently provide support to landowners if they want to plant trees on their land, and they have to do that in accordance with a tree planting plan. So, you can't just whack any old tree over any old land; you must actually get your tree planting plan approved. Actually, one of the things we discussed—. My colleague Lee Waters, as you know, has just done a deep dive into trees, and one of the things that came up there was the exact opposite of that, which is that sometimes the tree planting plans are a barrier to tree planting. We've obviously got to get the balance just right. Just to be really clear before we start the conversation, we don't think that offsets are the way to go. Obviously, what you should do is reduce your emissions, so it's not okay to just pollute as much as you like and plant some trees. So, we're very clear that the offsets are for companies that have already reduced their emissions to the point where they can't be reduced any more with current technologies, and therefore some offsetting is necessary.

We are part of the four-nation woodland group at the moment. The Scottish Government provides the secretariat for that. I'm very happy to speak with the Scottish Government, who will have similar problems to us. We certainly do not want to see good agricultural land bought up for this purpose and covered in trees for no good reason. What we want is to make sure that the right tree is planted in the right place on the right land in Wales, and that good agricultural land is continued to be used for food production. So, we will be looking at it. I had a very good meeting with the FUW as well, earlier, about this very point. I'm very aware of how concerned people are about this, so we will continue to monitor it. There isn't an enormous amount of it happening at the moment, but I absolutely do see the possibility for it. So, we will continue to monitor it. I'm also very keen at looking at ways that the Welsh Government can acquire land of that sort for community purposes and for young farmer schemes and so on. I'm very happy to work with you and with others to make sure that we have all of the right protections in place, whilst encouraging the planting of the right tree in the right place by the right people.

The last thing I would like to say is that there is a lot of money available for this. We would very much like to help our farmers lever that money into their farms, again to plant the right tree in the right place for the right purpose. So, it's not that we don't want the money of the trading emissions market; we just want it in the right place and for the right people and to benefit the right communities. So, there's a balance to be found here. I'm very happy to work with you and others across Wales to make sure that we get that right balance—that we both get the benefit of the money that's available and that we use it to the right effect in Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I wish to declare an interest and refer Members and members of the public to category 8, land and property, on my register of interests.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of the Renting Homes (Wales) (Amendment) Act 2021 on landlord continuity in the private let sector? OQ56950

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. Thank you, Janet. Implementing the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, as recently amended by the 2021 Act, will increase security of tenure and significantly streamline the legislation on renting, ensuring that all key rights and responsibilities are set out in a written contract. This will support continuity and benefit both tenants and landlords.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. At the point of any home possession, a landlord can actually have amassed costs of more than around £30,000 when considering lost rent, legal fees and often damage that needs calculating. This, of course, is when tenants are not fulfilling their own due lease obligations. Now, delays are reported at every stage of the possession process, with the median time standing at 21.1 weeks by March 2020. Taken together, this results in a fundamental lack of faith in the present court system from our landlords and risks undermining the legal redress protections enacted for tenants by the renting homes Act.

Now, as Propertymark have informed me, there is a very real risk that landlords, particularly those owning a single property, will leave this sector providing these much-needed homes. Now, in October last year, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee recommended the investigation of the need for a stand-alone and specific housing tribunal in Wales. So, Minister, will you confirm what discussions you have had and undertaken to review the possibility of developing a dedicated housing tribunal for Wales? Diolch.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, you know, Janet, sometimes, I feel just a little bit weary of the Conservatives always opposing measures that they say will prevent employment on the minimum wage and prevent landlords coming into the rented homes sector if there's any kind of regulation, in the teeth of all the evidence to the contrary. So, just to put the record straight, obviously, the renting homes legislation makes the process of renting fairer and more secure, but landlords still have the tools available to them to gain possession where there is a breach of contract.

And just to say that data from Rent Smart Wales shows us that the private rented sector is actually growing at the moment and not shrinking, despite all the warnings from yourself and others. So, we had 207,000 properties in December 2019 and we've got 216,000 in August of this year. The number of registered landlords has also continued to grow; we had 102,711 at the end of December 2019, 106,936 at the end of December 2020 and 107,059 at the end of August. So, you'll see a continuing rise in the number of landlords and not a decline, despite the dire predictions of people on the opposite benches. So, it just isn't true that the introduction of registration licensing and fairer systems deters landlords. And as I continually say, good landlords like good regulation, they want to be fairly compensated for the very good homes that they provide people and all we're doing is making sure that the practices that bring the sector into disrepute of a very few individuals are stamped out so that our good landlords can be rewarded. So, we're working very hard to implement the renting homes legislation, as I said. I am very keen to honour our commitment to have at least six months' prep time for both tenants, landlords and others by issuing them the key documentation they need, and this will begin to happen over the next few months.

In terms of the tribunal, I'm very happy to continue to look at that. I don't disagree, really, with the idea of a housing tribunal, but it has to be set in context, so there are a number of other things that we need to look at at the same time. But I don't really disagree with the principle of that; the devil, as always, will be in the detail.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

8. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce emissions as part of a globally responsible Wales? OQ56971

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We'll be publishing our next all-Wales delivery plan, net zero Wales, ahead of COP26. The plan sets out the action we must all take across this Senedd term and starts our decarbonisation journey towards net zero, including our circular economy approach to help deal with consumption emissions.

Buffy Williams (Labour, Rhondda)

The climate and nature emergency isn't the next global crisis; it's already upon us. This isn't a problem that we can offload on our children and their children. We have to act now. As a Government, we were the first in the UK to declare a climate emergency, to ban fracking and to install energy efficiency measures in over 60,000 homes as part of the last decade of action. The next decade of action is absolutely crucial, and we all have our part to play. As a country, we’re in the lead globally when it comes to recycling, but there are real barriers for residents in our communities to play their part in the green transformation. How will the Minister not only encourage but support residents across Wales to lead a greener life?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Buffy. I couldn’t agree more. The challenge of climate change requires everyone to act and act immediately, as I’ve said repeatedly. I make no mistake for doing that, and Members may as well get used to me saying it, because we’re going to be saying it an awful lot over the next few years.

We have been absolutely clear that our net-zero Wales plan has to be an all-Wales plan. It includes pledges of action from individuals and organisations right across Wales, as well as how they can help in tackling climate change. We recognise the vital role our communities play in helping to achieve a reduction in emissions, as well as dealing with the impacts of climate change on their lives as well. So, we will continue to support several grant programmes to enable communities to take action themselves. So, we have the sustainable steps programme run by the National Lottery Community Fund, funded by the dormant account funding. I’ve had a really good meeting with them very recently about how we can lever that money for Wales. We’ve got the renew Wales programme, which provides support to communities to identify and take action on climate change, from renewable energy projects, to community growing projects and initiatives on energy efficiency that she highlighted. And also people can take action themselves through walking and cycling more, increasing energy efficiency in their homes, reducing and reusing items, buying locally and buying more sustainable products. We have a whole number of programmes focusing on supporting individuals to take that action.

And I would say this as well to the young people of Wales who are listening today—this is not a counsel of despair. We can change this, but we must do it, each and every one of us, in our own lives and in our communities and acting together. So, together we absolutely can make a difference and it’s our responsibility here in the Senedd and as a Government to put the platforms in place that enable our communities to do that right thing.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is the questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question comes from Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that pupils are protected from harassment in schools? OQ56975

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We have a range of guidance and support to ensure the safety of children and young people. I've also commissioned Estyn to conduct a review into peer-on-peer sexual harassment in education settings, and the findings will play an important role in supporting settings and in informing Welsh Government policy.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you for that, Minister. The Everyone’s Invited website, where pupils are able to anonymously report abuse and harassment, has shone a light on a significant problem. More than 90 schools in Wales have been named in the online campaign, but the reality is likely to include far more. The Everyone’s Invited testimonies are deeply upsetting, with some pupils saying girls as young as 11 are being pressured into sending nudes or receiving unwanted explicit images from boys. We know that Ofsted concluded its review in England that sexual harassment has become normalised for young people, and I’m pleased, as the Minister has said and acted, with Estyn conducting their report into the matter. In preparation for the findings, what measures and resources are the Minister preparing to put in place so that the findings can be put into practice as quickly as possible?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that important supplementary, and I share with her—. I was very saddened and very concerned to read the testimony on the Everyone’s Invited website, and any form of harassment or indeed abuse is totally unacceptable. I know that we will all want that message to be really clearly sent from this Chamber.

We’ve introduced measures already in advance of the report from Estyn. A number of the items identified in the Ofsted report are interventions which are already taking place in Wales. In addition to those which were already in place, I wrote to each of the schools identified on the Everyone’s Invited website. But I want to echo the point which the Member made, and it’s a very important point—we absolutely must not assume that those schools are the only schools in which this activity may be taking place, and a letter has gone to each school in Wales to identify the steps that they're taking to safeguard their learners. In addition to that, officials in my department are working, both with local authorities and with individual schools, to identify a lead in relation to relationships and sex education in professional learning, which will help support advances in this area as we receive our report from Estyn. And in addition to that, as well as commissioning additional resources in this area to support schools and learners, we've been working to make sure that the resources that are available, and are, actually, in many cases, very widely used, are as accessible as possible, both to schools and to learners.

And, finally, there are, of course, a range of existing helplines that any victim of any harassment or abuse is able to make contact with, which provides very specific and tailored advice. But, as I say, we'll have a further body of information in the Estyn report, which will help us shape policy beyond that.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can you advise the Senedd of action being taken to promote respect and compassion in the school place, given the vital role that both play in promoting well-being amongst learners, and in shaping confident learners who are not blinded by shame later in life? And would you commit to also reporting to the Senedd any appraisals of the benefits that universal free school meals may have in terms of eliminating embarrassment and shame within the school place?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that important question. As part of the effective delivery of the RSE part of the new curriculum, and as well as the work that schools will be doing to make a reality of the health and well-being area of learning and experience that's an integral part of the curriculum, that requires specialist expertise, time and resources to ensure that the kind of supportive environment that the Member is referring to in his question is available in school for our learners, so that their confidence and their sense of themselves is supported.

In March of this year, as the Member will know, we published statutory guidance for schools on developing the whole-school approach to the well-being of learners and, indeed, in the wider school community. Part of that is about supporting our young people to build resilience through developing trusting relationships in the school environment and beyond, and also to support teachers, so that when they encounter issues that may be beyond their immediate competency, they have the support in order to be able to deal with that. As the Member is aware, there's a piece of work already under way in relation to the extension of eligibility for free school meals. I would be very keen to share with Members in the Senedd our advances in that space in due course.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

2. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the language impact of Welsh-language family farms being sold to companies in order to plant trees for carbon offsetting programmes? OQ56943

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I hold discussions on numerous issues with the Minister for Climate Change relevant to our portfolios and have had conversations with the Deputy Minister on this issue. Meeting woodland creation targets is crucial to reach our climate change commitments, as well as generating new opportunities for farmers, including Welsh-speaking farmers. We recognise that investments should not affect communities or change the type of landowners.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I was surprised to hear your fellow Minister saying earlier that the Government doesn't think that this is a huge problem, because I'm aware of 10 farms in the Tywi valley area alone that have been purchased by commercial operators, and we heard the Farmers' Union of Wales saying that they see reports, on a weekly basis, of this happening. So, this is the agricultural version of the wider second-homes crisis, because local farming families don't have the financial capacity to compete with these external companies. And what we're seeing is a shift towards a pattern of land ownership that is more similar to what we saw in the previous century. The potential in terms of depopulation is similar to what we saw in Scotland with the highland clearances in the eighteenth century. And, in my case, these are Welsh-speaking farms, and this is true of the majority of farms throughout Wales because of the nature of the industry. We're losing land, we're losing a language. So, can we have an impact assessment by the linguistic planning department to see the impact that this could have on language transmission within our Welsh-speaking communities?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the change in the rural economy, of course, is a crucial element in language policy development, so these things are under constant overview. Now, I didn't hear the answer of the Minister for Climate Change, but it's not clear what the scale of the problem is, and we don't want it to become a major problem; we want to work with farmers to ensure that it doesn't become a problem. In terms of the evaluation that we've already carried out of the policy, then there seems to be little evidence at the moment in terms of a change in land ownership to developers. Out of over 1,100 customers, 35 customers have addresses outwith Wales. We've looked at where these proposals are coming from, and 17 of the 35 projects funded through the Welsh woodland grant scheme are under 6 hectares, so it's unlikely, under those circumstances, that those represent large developers who are looking to turn large pieces of land into woodland. But, as I said earlier, it's important that we keep an eye on this and, if evidence develops that it is a problem, then that is where we will take action.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

[Inaudible.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for sharing that with me.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from the party spokespeople next. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, Merched y Wawr were in touch with me recently, outlining concerns that Welsh speakers are facing challenges in terms of face-to-face banking services and online services through the medium of Welsh. So, what steps are your Government taking to ensure that businesses across Wales operate bilingually? And what additional support is provided to those businesses that are failing to comply with these standards?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, we have several ways of supporting businesses across Wales to provide services through the medium of Welsh. I pay tribute to the work that the mentrau iaith do in every community in Wales to support the local economy to provide those kinds of services, as well as the Helo Blod service, which provides a translation service, and Helo Blod Lleol, which operates through the mentrau iaith, to do exactly what the Member is talking about. But, I’m also aware of banking provision being limited in some parts of Wales. I know of specific examples of that. And that’s an issue for businesses, but, as the question said, it’s an issue for other societies as well. We’ve been looking, as the Member knows, at the impact over the past year, of changes, including in terms of COVID, on Welsh-speaking organisations in our communities and we have an action plan to deal with the requirements that have arisen as a result.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you. We’re all agreed that we want to see an increase in the number of Welsh speakers in all parts of Wales. Often Tenby, in the middle of my constituency, is considered a traditionally Welsh-speaking community, but the Welsh-medium school, Ysgol Hafan y Môr, has been described by a local councillor as 'bursting at the seams', and Ysgol Caer Elen in Haverfordwest is also full. With the increase in demand from parents for their children to attend Welsh-medium schools, how does the Minister intend to support this increasing demand and to ensure that funding for current educational provision is not affected?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member is entirely right in saying that the demand for Welsh-medium education in some parts of Wales isn’t being fulfilled at the moment, so there is a need for increased ambition for provision in some communities across Wales. But, at the moment, as the Member will know, the local authorities are working on their strategic plans to provide Welsh-medium education in their areas, so that these will then come into force next year, more or less. I expect to see those plans in January. They've been working with officials in Welsh Government and with their local language fora to ensure what I want to see in those plans—that they are ambitious and that they don't just meet the demand, but also contribute to generating that demand, and that they explain and sell, as it were, that idea of Welsh-medium education. But, as the Member says, in some communities, that already happens—that demand is greater than the provision. So, on top of what we're doing, we, this year, have provided a wider fund to build Welsh-medium primary schools. I hope there will be creative ideas for spending that money.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you. And when you made your statement on 'Cymraeg 2050' before the summer recess, I asked this question of you, but, unfortunately, I didn't receive a response. You said that you want to encourage young Welsh speakers to return from university to help to teach through the medium of Welsh in our schools. I drew attention to the fact that this makes it more difficult to recruit teachers from outwith Wales, and therefore reduces the mix of skills and backgrounds that new teachers bring to our schools. So, can you now explain how the Welsh Government intends to ensure that anyone who wants to teach in Wales, but doesn't currently have those language skills, can find a job as a teacher in Wales? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, it is possible for people to teach in Wales even though they don't have specific language skills. What we want to see—. And we have a pilot scheme being developed at the moment with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to encourage students in our universities to work as teachers through the medium of Welsh or to teach Welsh in our schools. We'll be announcing further details of that pilot in due course, but it is being developed at the moment.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Llywydd. I was very pleased to see that the number of positive COVID tests in schools had reduced significantly over the past week—and I'm sure you yourself were also pleased with that—a reduction of 44 per cent. But schools continue to be in a very vulnerable position, of course, with some classes with as many as 50 per cent having tested positive for COVID. The Welsh Government's chief scientific adviser, Dr Rob Orford, has drawn attention to another issue of concern, namely the fact that the reemergence of other respiratory conditions that were prevented during the last lockdown could cause problems in future months. That is, children could be infected by COVID and another respiratory illness—flu, colds and so on and so forth. Now, this is a concern. Can you give us an assessment, or is the Government carrying out an assessment, of this particular risk, related to a lack of immunity among children? And in light of that, what steps will you take in order to ensure that schools are safe places over the winter?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the plans that we already have in place—the frameworks that are in operation in all parts of Wales—the intention of that policy is to ensure that our schools are safe for our learners and our teachers and the wider workforce, and that the measures that are being taken in our classrooms and the wider schools estate reflect the requirements of the schools themselves, but also the local health context in terms of public health. In terms of the specific point that the Member mentioned, I will consider that, alongside the CSO, and I'll share that with the Members.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you. That would be very useful, and I'm sure you would agree with me that ventilation in school buildings is crucially important, particularly now, given that people are being infected with more than one illness, which can make the problem worse.

I'd like to ask you about another problem on safety in schools, namely the issue of asbestos, and what's your response to the recent finding that there is asbestos in 60 per cent of Welsh schools. Recent information has revealed that there are more than 900 schools where there is asbestos. So, I'd like to know what steps the Welsh Government is taking to help local authorities and schools to monitor, and, more importantly, to actually get rid of asbestos.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, thank you for that further question. Through the revenue support grant funding that we provide to local authorities, it is possible to use that source of funding to ensure that their schools get to grips with this particular situation. But we're also working with the Health and Safety Executive and with Ystadau Cymru to support good practice to deal with asbestos in schools and in college buildings too. And we also provide specific guidelines for local authorities to assist them to get to grips with their responsibilities in terms of monitoring, and, where required, to get rid of asbestos in their schools.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

You will appreciate that the unions particularly are asking for urgent action on this issue, and are hoping for some news to that end from you soon.

As a result of the pandemic, we know that schools, staff and pupils have been under huge pressures and stresses. A recent report by the National Academy for School Leadership in Wales highlights how the pandemic has affected the well-being of educators, particularly school leaders. Their well-being has been affected because of increased workload, accountability measures, staffing and personnel matters, inspection issues, and also, of course, funding and budget management. So, there's been a huge burden on them.

So, can you outline what steps you will take to ensure the well-being of our school leaders, and how will the Government respond to the pressures across a range of different areas as a result of the increased workload in terms of inspections and budget management?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, this is a very important point and I want to acknowledge the pressure that school leaders and teachers are facing at present, but also over the past year and beyond. I was discussing on Tuesday morning with local authorities and education unions, and the wider education workforce, and I asked them to pass on our thanks as a Government, and I'm sure, as a Senedd, to their workforces for what they've been doing in very difficult circumstances over the past year.

In terms of specific provision to support the well-being and mental health of school leaders, we have been doing a variety of things. The whole school framework for well-being includes interventions that support teachers and leaders as well, as well as specific interventions by Education Support and others, so that they have space to be able to deal with the pressures that have been a reality for them over the past year.

In terms of further resources, we have, through renew and reform, provided significant sums of funding to recruit additional staff to alleviate some of the pressure on school leaders to deal specifically with the impact of COVID. So, that has had the effect of increasing provision and increasing the capacity in our schools. And also, in terms of the question of accountability and assessment, the Member will know of the steps that I outlined over the summer in terms of lifting some of those requirements over this past period, understanding fully that the pressure that follows on as a result of that isn't welcomed at the moment as schools deal with the challenges of COVID and so on.

And, in addition to that, we have a working group with local authorities and unions that is working on the measures that we can take to decrease the bureaucratic requirements on our schools to ensure that we shoulder some of that burden.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3 [OQ56955] is withdrawn. Question 4, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

4. How is the Welsh Government enabling learners to learn in non-traditional settings? OQ56968

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our national mission sets out our commitment to the success and well-being of all learners. Education other than at school is an integrated part of the continuum of education. EOTAS is education provision for children and young people who, for whatever reason, require tailored support away from mainstream schools.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Minister, thank you for that answer. It's two issues that come to mind, raised by Welsh residents who want to access learning but can't. One resident in Alyn and Deeside sought to do a postgraduate education qualification at Cheshire East college, an institution where learners from other parts of the United Kingdom can get funding to attend, but, unfortunately, we do not recognise the course, and, despite it being on her doorstep, she could therefore not attend.

Minister, you will also be aware of concerns raised through a Senedd petition—and, Llywydd, I want to be clear here that I'm not speaking on behalf of the committee; I'm speaking as a Member of the Senedd. But that petition raised that postgraduate funding only extends to traditional universities, excluding students who choose science, technology, engineering, mathematics or medicine Master's through alternative providers. Minister, do you agree with me that the best institution is often the one the learner can access, and we should not seek to place barriers in the way of people attending qualifications?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member of that question. As in all parts of the UK—. Each part of the UK has a regime through which education providers are qualified for support through the respective arrangements in each of the four nations, and the fact that one institution may qualify in one of the nations doesn't automatically mean that they satisfy the criteria in each of the four nations. They would need to submit applications for recognition in any nation where funding is sought. As the Member, I know, is aware, HEFCW is responsible for much of the process in relation to these questions. There is a need at the moment for alternative providers to apply for specific designation of their courses in order for Welsh students to be able to access student support. That is obviously in place in order to protect the public purse, but also to protect the interests of students, so that we are able to ensure that the providers are able to meet the relevant criteria in the interests of students themselves. Where any individual Welsh student is concerned about the status of a course in which they may have an interest, the first step, I would recommend, is to contact the course provider to check the student support that will be available before taking up that place. That will be the point at which any potential questions then can be raised.

Sam Rowlands (Conservative, North Wales)

I'd like to thank Mr Sargeant also for raising this question this afternoon. As you acknowledged, Minister, for some learners, traditional school learning settings aren't always the best for them. Many young people often thrive in non-traditional settings, which can see them move up the educational ladder at their own speed, and perhaps focus on specific areas of interest as well that suit them better, and, indeed, from my own experience, I was somebody who was home educated up until high-school age, and I know first-hand how well some non-traditional settings can work for some families. The outcome of which may be questionable in my instance here, but, certainly the experience of my family was of benefit. But, of course, many of the opportunities presented by non-traditional settings are underpinned by parental choice. So, Minister, how will you continue to support parents in being able to choose the right setting for their children to learn most effectively?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, in the context of the question that he raises about elective home education—and the diffidence with which he presents the benefits of that, I think, is acknowledged—just to remind the Member that, of all the four nations in the UK, Wales has the most generous support for the elective home educating community. The current year funding for that level of support is around £1.7 million. As he will know, in the previous Senedd, we consulted on introducing changes to the regulatory arrangements around elective home education in order to support local authorities and the work they are able to do with parents who elect to home educate. I am clear in my mind that that needs to be part of a broader offer that is able to support home educators in the way that he is describing, and I'm very pleased that Wales is leading the way across the UK in provision in that space.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Counsel General regarding working with schools and colleges to ensure that more young people register to vote? OQ56947

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Supporting young people to exercise their democratic rights is a priority not just for education, but for the whole of Government. I'm discussing with the Counsel General ways we can work together to drive up registration of 16 and 17-year-olds.

Rhys ab Owen (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thank you very much, Minister, as it is crucially important, isn't it? That's why we're here—we're discussing the future of these young people, and it was a huge disappointment, I'm sure, to most of us here today how few young people did vote: about half of 16 and 17-year-olds. Less than half of 16 to 17-year-olds registered to vote. Another problem is accessibility in voting. I remember speaking to a young 17-year-old after the polling stations had closed, and she said she didn't have an opportunity to vote. She said she went straight from school to work and didn't have an opportunity to vote, therefore. What discussions are you, as a Government, having with schools and colleges in order to demonstrate how important voting is, but also to make it more accessible for them to vote? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I share the Member's interest in ensuring that we increase the registration levels of 16 and 17-year-olds. It was some 43 per cent in that age group who registered, as compared to some 77 per cent of the population generally, so, certainly, we need to support our young people in registering to vote. There are two elements in terms of the work that I can do in ensuring that. Part of that is related to the work on the curriculum, and the Member will know just how important awareness of the democratic context and our institution is in delivering the curriculum in a way that supports our learners. But we also have some specific interventions in place, including, during the last election—the Member may be aware of this—in one of the schools in his region, a pilot on ensuring that pupils could question politicians online, and that has been successful. We are formally evaluating the pilot at the moment in the hope of extending it in a way that can support our schools across Wales. One of the other things that we've been doing is providing a funding source for all local authorities in Wales to support the recruitment of people to drive up registration levels among those who've just got the right to vote, including 16 and 17-year-olds, or those who've chosen not to register for any reason. So, there are interventions in terms of the curriculum, but also in supporting pupils more directly.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

6. How is the Minister ensuring that all new school building projects are zero carbon? OQ56953

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The education sector has a fundamental role in supporting the Welsh Government's response to the climate emergency. I was discussing this in a meeting with other Members of the Cabinet and local authority leaders only this morning. That is why net-zero carbon is a key consideration under the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme investment, and why additional funding has already been made available to support net-zero-carbon school pilot projects.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I'm not quite sure whether net-zero carbon is a key consideration or an obligation in all new projects, so perhaps you could clarify that. I just wanted to highlight the fact that, in a past life, I was a lay Estyn inspector, and I was up in a school in the Valleys—over a decade ago, this is—which had a ground-source heat pump installed in its new building, but they said they didn't know how to use it, so they were still using gas. This wasn't really the subject of what we were inspecting, but I went away from it thinking, 'This is really terrible.' I'm aware of schools in Cardiff where, for example, the grey water system has never worked, or the building management digital systems are so complicated that nobody knows how to use them. So, I just wondered, Minister, what you're going to do to ensure that local authorities are really raising their game on ensuring that, when they're signing off projects, they know that all the bells and whistles on this building are working correctly and that the end user, which is going to be the school, knows how to use this equipment?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I think that's a really important point, if I may say. On the first point, in relation to net-zero carbon, we are on the journey to making sure that all schools are, but we aren't, obviously, anywhere near the destination at this point. Our task as a Government is to make progress along that path as fast as possible. The role the pilots play in that is to help us work through some of the challenges that the Member's identified in the second part of her question, which is the practical deliverability of some of those policy requirements. So, there are questions here about the maturity of some of the technology, about some supply chain capacity issues. All of those are practical limitations on the speed at which we can progress along that path. But that's the role of the pilot—to help us do that more quickly.

On the second point, about how we connect the construction of the building to the operation of the building, as her question says, in order to get full value from that investment and the full benefit in environmental terms, we need to make sure that there's an understanding between local authorities and their estate managers about how the new zero-carbon buildings work. One of the issues that is being explored in the pilot projects is how we can develop teaching and learning resources, both to support the schools themselves and also to provide technical support and training to help those staff maintain schools and to operate the schools in a way that enables them to take full advantage.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, the Welsh Government has set out a carbon reduction target of 37 per cent by 2025, and 67 per cent by 2030. What assessments has the Minister undertaken of the current carbon output of our schools and what investment is needed by him to support all schools to reach his Government's carbon reduction targets?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, just to echo the point that was being raised in the discussion earlier, certainly, we can make more of a contribution than we're currently making. That's why we've set the policy for ourselves of ensuring that we are moving towards net-zero-carbon schools, but that needs to be done in a way that is deliverable, and the pilots that we've launched—there's one in the Vale of Glamorgan, there's one in Flintshire, there are three schools in Rhondda Cynon Taf being looked at under the arrangements—are helping us understand what more we need to do and how quickly we can move along the path to make sure that the school estate in all parts of Wales is taking advantage of the latest technology, the latest building methods, in order to deliver its contribution to decarbonising the public estate in Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

7. Will the Minister provide an update on education catch-up post pandemic? OQ56966

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The well-being and progression of our learners is my top priority. The renew and reform plan sets out how we will support those learners most affected by the pandemic. We've allocated over £160 million to this support this financial year—more spend per learner than anywhere in the UK.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I'm obviously very pleased that the Welsh Government does have a plan, but it's very important that we, as Members of the Senedd, should be able to monitor the implementation of that plan and monitor progress against it. Can I ask, will you be publishing key milestones and making regular reports available to Members of the Senedd to ensure that we can have a handle on getting to grips with the catch-up programme that needs to take place for those young people, for those children, across Wales who lost out so dearly on their education during the pandemic?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Could I encourage the Member, perhaps to reflect on the terminology 'catch-up'? I'm not sure that's the best way of motivating our learners in the context of the year/18 months that most of them have had. I know that other parts of the UK have chosen that, but I think providing our learners with a more supportive way of describing the way we're trying to help them is probably ultimately going to be more effective.

On the specific point that he makes, though, about progress against the renew and reform plan, I'll refer him, I think, to the update that I published in September around the implementation of renew and reform, which involves the commitment of additional resources in the space of Welsh language immersion, support for newly qualified teachers and support for learning recovery. So, that, I think, gives him the most recent position in terms of how the funding is being deployed in schools. I know that he will welcome the fact that the underpinning principle for this programme is to ensure that schools themselves make the best possible judgments to support the learners. They are best placed to understand the needs of their particular cohorts, and so that's the underpinning principle, if you like, of this funding stream. But I will also be evaluating—in fact, it's already under way—the impact of the scheme, and I'll be happy, of course, to share the output of that with Members in due course.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Minister, I've been contacted by the father of an additional learning needs pupil who's suffered months of lost education and, of course, all-important development during the pandemic, and, unlike with his other children, there's been no opportunity to continue his son's very specialist education at home. The local authority hasn't offered any coaching or training for parents to do this outside of normal working hours. Can I therefore ask what specific education recovery provisions are being made for pupils with additional learning needs, who could only receive limited home learning during lockdown? Also, can the Welsh Government make provision for free LAMP PCR non-intrusive saliva home testing kits and periodic school testing for additional learning needs children who cannot undertake intrusive swab testing? Many additional learning needs pupils are being sent home and having to isolate, missing even more school, as they are unable to use the invasive testing methods in order to return to school safely. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for those two important questions. On the second point, I'll write to her specifically about that, if I may. On the first point, the renew and reform programme that I've just identified is specifically weighted to reflect the needs of additional learning needs pupils in schools, so the funding that follows that and the allocation to schools specifically reflect that and should be available to make specific provision for additional learning needs pupils. I recognise the challenges that she describes for the constituent that has written to her. That is one of the reasons why the funding is allocated in exactly that way.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

8. What action will the Welsh Government take to ensure the delivery of high standards in education? OQ56951

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our national mission is to raise education standards for all children and young people. We will continue to do this through our wide-ranging reform programme and unprecedented investment, as well as targeted support for specific cohorts and disadvantaged and vulnerable learners.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. Following on from Jenny Rathbone's comment about school inspections, I believe school inspections are vital to ensure that the delivery of high standards of education is available across Wales. However, figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 show that 189 schools were last inspected between seven and 10 years ago, and a further 417 schools were inspected between five and seven years ago. One school in Wales was inspected over 10 years ago, Minister. These figures show school inspections were lacking long before coronavirus hit, which means hundreds of schools across the country could have been underperforming for years. What action will the Minister now be taking in light of these figures to ensure that schools are properly inspected and that youngsters and young people are getting the education that they deserve? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think I agree with the Member's point about how important it is to make sure schools are inspected regularly in order to provide us with information around school accountability more broadly. As she knows, in future, under the new curriculum, inspection will happen on a much more regular basis. At the moment, as she knows, Estyn has suspended its core inspection programme for this term, recognising the challenges that schools have been grappling with over the last 12 to 18 months. During spring term next year, Estyn is going to be starting to pilot its new inspection regime with schools who participate in that. So, that will provide a different basis, going forward, for that inspection regime. But I absolutely echo the point that she made about how important that is, as part of our accountability process overall.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Before we move on to further Senedd business, I want to touch on events on the Senedd estate last night. I want to reiterate to Members that threats to the safety and welfare of Members, our staff and, indeed, our visitors are totally unacceptable, and that too many of you faced threats of that kind last night from protestors. There is, of course, a place for non-violent protest—indeed, most of us have taken part in protests of that kind—but protest that threatens individuals' safety, be it here at the Senedd or anywhere else in Wales, is entirely unacceptable. The relevant authorities will be reviewing last night's events and I will be in a position to update Members in due course.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And just as I'm on the subject of last night, I received a request from a Member to make a personal statement with regard to his absence from the vote last night. I received that request just before 1.30 p.m. today. I hadn't even had time to consider that request let alone agree to it when, just before 2.15 p.m., the content of that statement had been shared with the press and on Twitter. I consider that statement now in the public domain and that it no longer requires to be made to the Senedd.

I'll take the opportunity, however, to reiterate to all Members that it is every individual Member's responsibility to ensure they are present early enough and in time to vote wherever you may be, and especially if voting from a location for the first time.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I'll move on now to to the topical questions, and the only topical question is to be posed by Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. What does the Welsh Government intend to do to mitigate the effects of the UK Government's decision to remove the universal credit uplift from today? TQ569

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Thank you for this very important question. The UK Government has committed the greatest act of levelling down by cutting the £20 universal credit uplift, condemning hundreds of thousands of hard-working families to life on the poverty line. We shall not abandon families in Wales. Our discretionary assistance fund will help them keep their homes warm and children fed.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Llywydd, for accepting this important topical question.

Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

The £20 uplift in universal credit comes to an end today. This cruel decision by a heartless Westminster Tory Government will affect over 275,000 of the poorest households in Wales. That's one in five households. According to the Bevan Foundation, the impact will be worse for Welsh families, as a higher proportion of families here claim universal credit or working tax credit. And for families with children, four in 10 will be affected; that's four in 10 families with children in Wales who will suddenly find their safety net looks a whole less safe from today onwards. Today's cut comes as living costs in Wales are rising, household energy costs are rocketing—there's a record price today for gas prices in the UK—and household debt is deepening.

The solution according to the Westminster Government: just work two more hours. Aside from the absolute callousness of this statement, it's also utterly false. Universal credit is a tapered benefit, which means for every pound you earn, your payment reduces by 63p, so for a job that pays £10 per hour, it'll take a lot more than two hours to earn £20 more. Furthermore, 38 per cent of people claiming universal credit in Wales do have a job. They rely on universal credit because their work simply does not pay enough. I was listening to a mother being interviewed on Radio Wales this morning; her and her husband work full time. They are on universal credit; they're going to be worse off. She said the cut is going to be the equivalent of four weekly shops of food.

As the duty of the Welsh Government is to the people of Wales, I'd like to know what specific new plans the Welsh Government has to mitigate the effect of this disastrous decision on our poorest families, which will of course also see £286 million taken out of our local economies. The UK Government has announced £500 million for a household support fund to help vulnerable households this winter, resulting in £25 million being made available to the Welsh Government. This money, of course, goes nowhere near to plugging the hole so cruelly torn in poorest households' income by ending the uplift, and will not meet the needs of the inevitably increasing numbers of those facing fuel poverty, which is a life-or-death issue as winter approaches. I'd therefore like to know if the Welsh Government will be using some of this money to help fuel-poor indebted energy customers in particular, many of whom will have been affected by today's decision.

And lastly, when will the Welsh Government finally back widespread calls for the devolution of welfare powers to Wales, so that we can ensure a decent life for all, rather than forever leave the most vulnerable in our society at the mercy of Westminster, which will never have the best interests of the Welsh people at heart? Westminster has never cared about the people of Wales, and it never will. Introducing this cut has been a political choice; forging a better system requires political will. When will you as a Government decide that enough is enough?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, and very powerful words, which are shared and echoed in terms of what you said on this side of the Senedd. I know, and you are right, this is a cruel decision, and the Chancellor's response, as you say, to end the increase is the focus must be on jobs, but over 97,000 people receiving universal credit in Wales are working, and 76,000 people on universal credit are in the no work-related requirement group. Those are people who are disabled and have caring responsibilities that the DWP have said cannot work; they're in the no work-related requirement group. How cruel is it that those people are also going to be losing that all-important £1,040 annual income, and around 275,000 low-income families who in total lose £286 million? And I have to say, yes, of course, that's taking it out of our economy as well.

The planned reduction means the biggest overnight reduction to a basic rate of social security since the modern welfare state began more than 70 years ago. And I do also thank all those, not just here in this Senedd, but across Stormont, Westminster and Holyrood, where all of the committees have met and condemned this; the children's commissioners from each nation; numerous charities and faith groups; not to say also all of those Conservatives who are against this, including former Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions.

Can I just respond to your specific questions by saying that the announcement last week of the £500 million household support fund was derisory? Twenty-five million pounds to Wales. No way will it make up for the money that's been lost by hundreds of thousands of families across Wales, so we are working out proposals to ensure that the money is spent in the most efficient way in terms of the impact of this brutal cut to their household incomes. So, I'm grateful that you have raised this point today. Because actually Trussell Trust said, as a result of this, one in four people now say they will very likely need to skip meals—64,000 people in Wales, that is. And one in five say they will very likely be unable to afford to heat their homes this winter—61,000 people in Wales—and that's before the latest fuel increase.

So, just also very quickly, you know, and I have already announced, that we are extending the discretionary assistance fund, which we have in Wales—an additional £25.4 million during the pandemic. We're extending that and we're also including the flexibilities that we built into DAF. That will continue till next spring, but we're also going to have a national—again—income maximisation benefit take-up, working with local authorities and Citizens Advice. We've got to make sure that everyone takes up their entitlements.

So again, on your final point, we must make sure that we have a social security system that is delivered with compassion and is fair in the way it treats people. You know that we're carefully assessing this in terms of our situation in Wales, and of course devolving certain powers relating to elements of social security could provide us with a wider range of tools to tackle poverty. We of course have responded to that, and to the recommendations of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee that John Griffiths formerly chaired. So, I hope that is helpful in showing how we are trying to respond to this cruel, unnecessary cut to the incomes and the lives of our poorest people in Wales, who are, as I said, contributing to our economy, to our communities, to our society.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In April 2020, as a one-year response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the universal credit standard allowance received a temporary uplift of £20 a week. In his March 2021 budget, the UK Chancellor announced an extension of this temporary uplift for a further six months, alongside other advances to universal credit. The temporary uplift was always time-limited and it is misleading to pretend otherwise.

As the First Minister said yesterday in regard to an NHS pay rise, Government can't just magic money out of the air. The UK Government, which delivered a £407 billion COVID support package, including a £9 billion injection into our welfare system, and an additional £2.14 billion to the Welsh Government for 2021-22, is now focused on investing in jobs and skills as we bounce back from the pandemic. Further, as we heard, the UK Government has also announced a new £500 million household support fund available to help those most in need as we enter, hopefully, the final stages of recovery, which will support millions of households. Devolved Governments will receive £79 million of this, so how will the Welsh Government ensure that its full share of this money ends up helping those most in need in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I am surprised that Mark Isherwood hasn't listened to my answers to the questions that have been put so powerfully by Sioned Williams this afternoon. I can perhaps remind him that, actually, it was Stephen Crabb, the Conservative MP, who actually pointed to the fact that the reality is that even if the £20 per week payment is maintained it will not make up for the income that our poorest households lost, because of severe cuts year on year to their benefit payments, introduced by years of welfare cuts—years of welfare cuts, Mark Isherwood. Stephen Crabb admitted that he was part of that team that pushed more workers into poverty. That is one of your colleagues in Westminster.

Also, can I just point out the fact that I'm looking at north Wales and Aberconwy, just one constituency, where 4,750 households are claiming universal credit, of which 45 per cent are working? There'll be 2,756 children in households that will lose that £20 per week. You are someone, Mark, who always stands up and always speaks in support of the third sector in your community. Are you listening to them in north Wales?

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Member for putting this question forward, because it's really, really important, and this is happening today, now, to families. It is, as the Minister said, the largest single benefit cut since 1945—one of the largest ever, in fact. After more than 10 years of Tory cuts—[Interruption.] I've only just started. And you can't make an intervention anyway.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Janet Finch-Saunders, if you wish to ask a question, put a request in.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Yes, please do—after more than 10 years of Tory cuts, when workers are already facing choices between eating and heating. I read the letter from the devolved administrations to the Prime Minister asking him to reverse that decision. I know he's been busy cracking jokes in Manchester, but has he actually bothered to reply to that letter? Because those families that he is making poorer today deserve answers, and not a clown routine. I heard Mark Isherwood say that Governments can't magic money. Well, I'd like him to consider how people are going to magic food on their table and money to put in their gas meters, because that's what we're really talking about here today.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Joyce Watson. I have responded to many of the important and valid points that you've made. I think it is important to recognise this joint letter that went from the First Minister of Scotland, the First Minister of Wales and the First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland to Boris Johnson, calling on him, urging him, not to proceed with this completely unnecessary cut. In that letter, they say that

'this will increase poverty and hardship without delivering any tangible social or economic benefits. The UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights said—when calling upon you to reverse this cut—that for a healthy and well-qualified workforce to emerge, your Government must provide adequate levels of social protection. Years of a freeze on benefits means Universal Credit has not kept pace with rising living costs.'

And, of course, as I said, the £500 million fund that's been handed out on a discretionary basis is wholly inadequate to making up the £6 billion shortfall in social security expenditure that will result from this cut.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It's absolutely clear that the UK Government is just turning a deaf ear even to the pleas from people within their own party and former Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions. So, I think we have to fall back on what we can do. Obviously, the increase in the discretionary assistance fund is very welcome, but I just wondered what conversations you might be able to have with your colleagues in the climate change ministry about how we could accelerate the retrofitting of social housing. Because, obviously, that is where a very large number of universal credit recipients are living, and they are therefore going to be £20 a week worse off. Also, what can we do to somehow rectify the total imbalance in the food that's rotting on the trees and is about to be culled in grotesque images on the farms, simply because we cannot get the right skills to rectify the problems that we have with our food security? So, what can we do to ensure that food that's currently not being collected reaches the people who most need it?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that important question. We've got £25 million allocated—as I said, a derisory amount—to Wales. What I have sought to do—. As soon as we heard about that allocation, I've gone across the whole of the Welsh Government to say, 'What is it?' It's a one-off sum of money; it's not recurrent. It's a one-off sum of money, which is the hardest to spend sustainably. So, all Ministers are responding in terms of how they think we can most effectively use that funding, and, of course, I'm sure that your points today will be very valuable for the Minister for Climate Change.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first this afternoon is from Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Morriston Orpheus choir's musical director, Joy Amman Davies, has retired this year after 30 years of service with the choir. The quality of singing of the Morriston Orpheus choir is well known throughout the world. Joy was born in Glanamman and won a scholarship to have piano tuition at the Welsh College of Music and Drama before entering Bangor University. Joy joined Morriston Orpheus as an accompanist in 1991, and then in 2007 became the choir's musical director. She has travelled with the choir extensively, to venues such as Carnegie Hall in New York and the Sydney Opera House. As well as the Morriston Orpheus choir, she has been a guest accompanist to other choirs and accompanied many famous Welsh singers. During the COVID pandemic, Joy hasn't stopped, working as hard as ever, running online rehearsals twice a week, and recording songs virtually, which have been viewed by over 0.25 million people online. Her love for the choir and the choristers' love for her are most obvious, and she will be deeply and sorely missed by both the choristers and those of us who are regular attendees at Morriston Orpheus concerts. I want to say thank you to Joy publicly. Thank you for your commitment, your dedication and your love of music. I do not think there's a better sound than hearing Morriston Orpheus singing 'Myfanwy'.

Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Two weeks ago, we heard the sad news about the death of the radio presenter and producer Magi Dodd, at the age of 44. Magi was born and raised in Pontypridd, where she attended Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pont Sion Norton and Ysgol Rhydfelen, before going on to study at Aberystwyth University. In the early part of this century, she became a familiar voice on Radio Cymru—on C2 programmes and as the presenter of Dodd Com—and more recently, she produced programmes and presented the Radio Cymru pop quiz. A host of people have paid tribute to Magi, with everyone noting her passion for Pontypridd and the Welsh rock scene, while also emphasising her kindness and exuberant personality. She inspired a generation and more to share her love of Welsh music, attracting new audiences to the station. There were very few presenters from the Valleys on Radio Cymru at that time, and as Huw Meredydd Roberts observed:

'She became one of the station's most important presenters—the voice of a generation of young people from the south Wales Valleys on our national service.'

I went to see Magi's mum last week, and she told me of the kindness and the love that the family has received from the people of Pontypridd and beyond, adding that everyone in Pontypridd seems to have known Magi. I have no doubt that this is the case. Pontypridd and Wales will be poorer places without her, and I would like to extend my deepest sympathies to her partner, Aled, and her family, colleagues and friends today. Rest in peace, Magi.

Natasha Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

This month is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. The recent death of Girls Aloud star Sarah Harding from breast cancer at the tragically young age of 39 highlighted the vital importance of doing all that we can to fight this horrible disease. The pandemic has resulted in a big drop in the number of people being referred to see a specialist with suspected breast cancer. Screening services were sadly paused, and whilst for many patients treatment continued unchanged, others saw delays and cancellations of their treatment. It is therefore critical that the Welsh Government works with the NHS cancer section and cancer charities to support the recovery of breast cancer services as well as plan their long-term future. Recently, NHS England announced it would fund a national metastatic breast cancer audit. I understand that NHS Wales is also having discussions about Wales being included in this audit too, and I sincerely hope that the decision will be forthcoming soon to include Wales in this audit to address the gaps in services for breast cancer patients. Because whether you are a grandparent, a mother, a father, a husband, a son or a daughter, breast cancer does not discriminate and we all have a responsibility to work together and support the fighters, admire the survivors, honour those sadly taken away from us, and work to detect breast cancer, treat breast cancer, and raise awareness about it going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for those statements.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow items 5-8 to be debated

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow debate on the next four items. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion—Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Formally move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? I see no objections and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the four motions under items 5, 6, 7 and 8 to establish committees and agree their membership and voting arrangements will be grouped for debate, but with votes taken separately. Does any Member object? There is no objection.

5., 6., 7. & 8. Motion under Standing Order 16.1 to establish a Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister, Motion under Standing Order 17.2T and 17.3 to elect members and a Chair to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister, Motion under Standing Order 16.5 to establish a Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform and Motion under Standing Order 17.2T, 17.3, 33.6 and 33.8 to elect members and a Chair to the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform, to suspend Standing Orders in relation to that committee, and to agree voting arrangements in the committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I therefore call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motions—Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Formally move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? I see no objection, so those motions are agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will now suspend proceedings to allow some change-overs in the Chamber. Thank you.

9. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Mental Health

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item is the Welsh Conservative debate on mental health. And I call on Tom Giffard to move the motion.

Tom Giffard (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to open this Welsh Conservative debate today on the topic of mental health tabled in the name of Darren Millar. This Sunday, 10 October, is World Mental Health Day. We should take this opportunity to reflect on our own mental health, and that of our friends, and of our family, and what we as Senedd Members can do to promote positive mental health across Wales. It's also a day where we all need to reflect and take time to check up on someone. It's a day when we should drop an old friend a text, have a Zoom conversation with a colleague or meet up for a coffee with a family member. You may never know the difference a small act can make on someone struggling with their mental health.

COVID-19 hasn't been kind to our mental health. And, regrettably, we've seen a sharp rise in the number of children and adults that are suffering. It would be wrong of me not to start by mentioning the work of a great number of mental health charities across Wales, and the UK, that do great work in all of our communities. Mental Health Matters provide crucial services, such as well-being hubs and anxiety and depression peer support groups, whilst the Samaritans operate a helpline service that is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Manned by volunteers, they are often the unsung heroes who have no doubt saved countless lives and are there for us in our hour of need, and we need to be here for them in theirs.

In Wales, COVID-19 has exposed existing mental health inequalities under the Welsh Labour Government, with many services stretched to the limit, backlogs rising and fewer people accessing the support they so desperately need. Mind Cymru in their 'Too long to wait' report outlined that even before the pandemic, thousands of people were waiting longer than ever to receive psychological therapy. They found that the target of 80 per cent of people being seen within 26 weeks was not met in any of the 17 months to August 2020. But there's no question that COVID-19 has made the problem worse, because Mind also found that when comparing August 2020 to the same period in 2019, whilst the number of people waiting to start psychological therapies fell from 7,198 to 5,208, the number of people waiting longer than 26 weeks rose by 4 per cent, and those waiting longer than a year rose by 17 per cent. And even that decline in the number of individuals on the waiting list may not be the good news that it sounds. It probably means fewer people coming forward, in the first place, to get the help they need, because of the pandemic.

And, we all, sadly, know the effect that lockdowns have had on our mental health, particularly younger people. During the first lockdown in 2020, more than half of Welsh adults and three quarters of young people said their mental health had generally worsened during the early months of the pandemic. And, although anxiety about the pandemic has generally fallen among UK adults, from 42 per cent, in February 2021, loneliness had risen, from 10 per cent in March 2020 to 26 per cent a year later. And perhaps most markedly, there were more than 10 deaths for every 100,000 of the population in 2020 caused by suicide, and that rate is often three to four times higher amongst males than it is females.

The next 10-year mental health strategy needs to reflect the significant changes we have seen in a post-COVID Wales. I'm sure we all agree that we're in a very different position today to where we were two years ago, and a new strategy needs to reflect that. So, it's in this light that today's Government amendments really are disappointing. Today, we have a real opportunity to put forward a long-term strategy, to ensure a proper review of mental health services—are fit both for today and the future. So, to see them watered down by the Government amendments are a real, real missed opportunity. What we need are targets, and we need outcomes, and for this Senedd to be able to hold the Welsh Government to account on them. And I'm afraid these Government amendments do not achieve either of those objectives.

Our motion is constructive. We don't table it today to level criticism at the Government or anybody else. Whilst there were clear problems in mental health services across Wales before the pandemic, we all recognise the last year and a half has put an incredible strain on our mental health services. The solutions to tackle it need to be updated to reflect that, and that's why I call on every Member of this Senedd to back our motion today.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle, to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to take this opportunity to urge the Government and the Minister here to raise their game, to show greater urgency in their response to the mental health crisis that we are facing at the moment. And the Minister, herself, is one, I know, who feels passionately about mental health. That's why she is in post. But that passion now needs to translate into a determination to take action, serious action, on a large scale, without any delay. I'll support that work in any way. We've collaborated in the past, on a committee. There is no reason why we can't all be agreed here on what needs to be done, even though we would bring different ideas to the table on how to achieve this, and it's important that we do, in order to move forward, share ideas. We'll support the Conservatives' motion. We, on these benches, have put forward similar suggestions in the past. I hope that everyone here can support our amendment too. I'll turn to that in a moment.

But I urge the Government, because the crisis is getting ever worse. This week, I received news about another young person losing their life after a long battle with mental health issues. I think about the pain that that person went through, and the pain that their family and friends are going through now. I heard about a young woman from the same area, who lost her life recently. We know about the strain that the pandemic has caused to our young people. They've lost so much: they've lost those important milestones in their lives; they've lost that companionship; the normality; the structure; they've lost educational opportunities; and they've lost access to services, because of COVID pressures on those services.

But, of course, that lack of sustainability and the lack of resources and continuity in mental health services were there a long time before the virus hit. Is it acceptable that a young man from my constituency was advised to go outwith his own health board to receive support for an eating disorder because the GP didn't have any confidence in the local provision, and then had to wait several months for an appointment? And others, of course, are waiting far longer than months—they can be waiting for years for therapies and some treatments.

The progress report on the work of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, the report that was published almost exactly a year ago now, two years after the original report, 'Mind over matter', states that

'our children and young people are still struggling to find the emotional and mental health support they need, whether that is at an early stage to help prevent problems developing, or later down the line, when things have become worse and specialist help and care is needed.'

Now, the current mental health Minister was the chair of that committee at the time, and she, I'm sure, will be eager to progress that work, to address those three central points in the report, and the three points that they asked about, namely that we need to do more to make improvements sooner; that we need to work in a whole-system approach with all parts of the service playing their part; and that the impact of the pandemic makes progress even more important.

We've outlined some of our specific ideas in the amendment today. We call once again for that network of mental health and well-being centres where young people can receive support before issues become more acute. But our aim, of course, is to improve and accelerate access to care and treatment at all levels, and, as I say, we all need to have that clear, laser focus on that aim.

There is a danger, of course, that a Government amendment, such as that we see today, could be seen as, 'Don't worry, we're doing everything already. Our commitment is clear enough.' But words aren't enough. Please, Minister, do show that commitment through actions now for the whole population, but particularly our young people.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In tackling mental health issues I think it’s very important that all organisations that can play a role do so, and all organisations think about what they can do to actively help, and I'm very pleased that in my local area in Newport we have a football club, Newport County, who've been very keen to do just that. They've been looking at how they can reach out beyond their core activity, as it were, in being a successful football club—and I hope we have considerable success on the field this season. They're reaching out into the community, they're doing a lot of community work, and in terms of mental health they became the fourth English Football League club to sign a charter on sport and recreation and how mental health work can be aided through the power of sport and the powerful role models that footballers can be. So, I think it's really encouraging that an organisation like Newport County are thinking that way.

They were the first football club in Wales to sign the charter, and I hope others will follow, and they're determined to make it a success. It's about being part of a network, working with partners like the local authority and the health service, getting all the partners to sign a pledge to take forward joint work and to understand how they can effectively work together, and then to monitor that work to make sure that actual progress is being made. It's about positive messaging, tackling discrimination, and using the power of the football club and the football players. And I think it's particularly important for men's mental health, which is a particular problem; men sometimes are particularly reluctant to talk about mental health, to admit vulnerability. And when they see powerful role models, such as footballers, willing to do that, willing to share their experience and their problems, I really do think that can be quite powerful, and I think that's proving to be the case. They've got people with designated responsibility within the club to take this forward. They've linked with all the front-line political representatives, such as myself, locally. So, it really is building up to be a considerable team effort. And I'd also like to highlight the work of Newport City Council as part of that, but also in terms of their Arrow project, which is particularly working with young people around their mental health issues, and working with all the schools in the area. Again, I think that's being recognised as good practice, and it's an organisation going that extra step, doing something beyond its core activities, to understand the challenges of mental health and help to address them.

So, I'm sure that the Minister would agree that, if we really are to make the progress we need to make in Wales, we need this stepping up to the plate from all those organisations that really can add to the collective effort of the health service, of key partners. It has to be everybody's business, doesn't it? And organisations like Newport County, Newport City Council, I think are showing a good example, and I hope many others across Wales will emulate their actions and, hopefully, their success.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

'Mind over matter: Two years on' clearly concludes that the wider effects of COVID-19 have impacted children and our young people's lives significantly. And, again, I'm going to pay tribute to Lynne Neagle for all the work that you've done with 'Mind over matter', and I know how passionate and dedicated you are to seeing an improvement in the mental health of our young people.

Barnardo's UK-wide practitioners' survey proves this, because 95 per cent of 275 respondents reported an increase in the number of children and young people experiencing mental health and well-being issues. We owe it to our young people of Wales to ensure that all the calls in the 'Two years on' report are acted on, such as better signposting, addressing the gaps in service, provision for the lower level, therapeutic support, and further work on monitoring the quality and availability of services. The same has to be true for adult services.

Sadly, in north Wales, and in my own constituency, I'm faced, on a weekly basis, where there are such inconsistencies. I'll just give you an insight into just one of my cases, which now proves how dire the situation has become. Due to Conwy community mental health team not having enough social workers based within the team, a very vulnerable constituent of mine was referred to Conwy County Borough Council's community well-being team. Shockingly, despite CMHT—that's the mental health team—being aware of the outcome of the referral, they then discharged a vulnerable individual. The local authority have now confirmed that the referral was not received by them from the CMHT. A review with a consultant psychiatrist found that the individual should have had a care co-ordinator. As we speak—and despite me asking for the past six weeks, and despite the fact my constituent was discharged, as part of COVID measures, over 18 months ago—that constituent still remains on the waiting list. And the situation gets worse. Because there is no care co-ordinator, it has been explained there cannot be a care and treatment plan. Well, I'm sorry, but I sat here during the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, where these plans are supposed to be in place but are not. So, it's a disgraceful standard of care and attention to a very vulnerable individual.

We need annual reports that provide an honest picture as to the severity of the situation on the ground, and we need to help this Welsh Parliament understand what actions are needed to support mental health professionals assisting our communities. I am going to work with Lynne on this, and I have been doing up to now as a Member for a constituency. I want to see a clear mental health workforce plan, and I want a short-term crisis strategy put in place. As part of this, I encourage you to back this campaign to see a trained mental health professional in every GP surgery across our constituencies.

Again, speaking to GPs—I've spoken to one today, and he said, 'The actual time we had a mental health nurse in our practice, it meant we didn't have to refer on; we were able to deal with people at the time'. So, the need for this to be driven forward cannot be starker than when remembering the fact—and this is really sad to reiterate—that more than 3.2 million antidepressant items were prescribed by GPs in Wales in the six months after the COVID pandemic, an increase of 115,660 compared to the previous year, whilst the number of people referred for talking therapies has fallen by a third.

I wish to close by reminding the Senedd that, alongside the heartbreaking 40 per cent increase in young people presenting in hospital with self-harming, we continue to see a worrying suicide rate in Wales—10.3 deaths per 100 per cent population in 2020. And I've had in my inbox today a note from Samaritans on some really stark reading, which I will read more fully later, but they are really concerned about the cases they're dealing with.

Now, whilst I appreciate, Deputy Llywydd, that there are unique circumstances leading to each of the 285 lives lost, it is a fact that the number of lives affected are considerably higher when you take into account the family and the loved ones who pick up the pieces after such tragic occurrences. It is wrong that the only official contact some families are receiving are police officers informing them of the tragic loss, and then that is it. Those who have been bereaved by suicide become themselves an at-risk group and need specialist practical support, not just in the immediate aftermath.

Whilst I look forward to the publication of the Welsh Government's national framework for the delivery of bereavement care in Wales, an interim study by Cardiff University has found that high levels of emotional support are needed.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can the Member conclude now, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Yes. So, let's all work together with the Minister, with the Deputy Minister, cross party, and ensure that we can actually return here in a year's time and see that the statistics for the lack of support have decreased. Thank you—diolch.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Children's happiness should surely be one of the metrics any Government or society takes most seriously. Now, it's not always easy to quantify happiness or to pinpoint how contentedness manifests itself, but, when patterns develop and take hold, we all have to take notice. Last year, a Cardiff University study was published that had interviewed children in 35 countries across the world. The study asked them about how happy they felt at home, at school, about their future, about themselves, and, in many aspects, Welsh children had some of the lowest scores. The interviews happened long before COVID, and, as Platfform have reminded Members of the Senedd in preparing for today's debate, COVID-19 hit those who were already having the hardest time the hardest. I know that we're all used to hearing politicians talk about research or statistics or findings, and the tendency is that we switch off, but that study—it's the kind of thing should make us all sit up and take notice. We should be stopped in our tracks. Because the findings, regrettably, are not unique. 'The Good Childhood Report 2021' by the Children's Society looks at answers given by children aged 10 to 15 about how happy they are, and the mean happiness scores for how those children feel about life as a whole, their friendships and their appearance were lower than when the survey began in 2009-10. I've been looking at the report, and some of the most painful estimates that can be extrapolated for Welsh children are that an estimated 24,000 children in Wales recorded low happiness at school, and 30,000 said they were unhappy about their appearance.

Now, there are wider societal issues that need to be addressed here—wider than any one Government can handle alone—to do with the emphasis we place on looks, the impact that Instagram and magazines can have on body image and the ways in which bullying can be made worse both on and because of those platforms. There has to be an urgent acknowledgment and plan in place to deal with and tackle those issues, because we're talking here about feelings that are worryingly common for so many children.

But, more widely, what can we do to help children and young people with mental health? Dirprwy Lywydd, our amendment, as has been set out, calls for a network of preventative youth mental health and well-being centres. That help in the community should sit alongside counselling available in schools, so that there's always somewhere trusted that young people can turn to when they just need to chat through their issues, where they feel safe. Now, this chimes with what the Children's Society has called for in terms of open-access hubs offering drop-in support on a self-referral basis. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, what about those children and young people who are in crisis? The children's commissioner has, I know, released a report this week, emphasising the need for crisis care for young people's mental health. She's pointed out that A&E waiting rooms are not appropriate places for young people to have to go when they're in crisis, that we need sanctuaries and dedicated mental health crisis centres for young people, and this resonated. The commissioner said that too often children and young people are expected to fit into rigid pathways that don't always work for them, and face long waiting times.

I said at the beginning of my remarks, Dirprwy Lywydd, that it's not always easy to quantify happiness. Regrettably, it is all too easy, at times, to quantify extreme unhappiness when it results in crisis, queues of people waiting for overstretched services, the metrics of hopelessness stretching ahead of us. I know the Government wants to get this right, I know that the Minister truly does, so alongside the practical need for crisis centres for community hubs, can we please refocus the indicators we use about children's well-being? As well as the external things that we can measure, like attainment, employment and housing, can we pay more heed to what children feel in their heads, how they are coping, what they tell us about what is going on? Can we follow the Children's Society's advice and include those indicators in how surveys are conducted in Wales to inform public policy, yes, and to listen to those children, because that could be the most powerful intervention that we could make?

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I have said on more than one occasion that the COVID pandemic has exposed the weaknesses in many of our services, and a lack of progress in developing world-class mental health services is sadly another example of where this country is now struggling. Mental health knows no boundaries, it does not restrict itself according to one section of population or another. It can take, regardless of a person's status, and whilst there is much we can do to maintain good mental health, sometimes the realities of life can be too overwhelming.

I want to focus my remarks today on the impact of mental health on children and young people, and the importance of getting this right. Previous committees of the Senedd have focused on the issue of children and mental health. The 'Mind over matter: Two years on' report published in 2020 concluded that while some positive changes have been made to mental health provision for children and young people,

'children and young people are still struggling to find the emotional and mental health support they need'.

The committee argued that improvements to mental health services are not happening quickly enough, there are gaps within existing services, and the impact of the pandemic means a strong focus on the emotional and mental health of children is more essential than ever. I know that we allocate a lot of money to mental health services and that there has historically been a worrying challenge in recruiting the right number of the right skill mix of clinicians into mental health services. This is a workforce issue that must be prioritised if we are to be able to respond to current and future demands. Whilst the Welsh Government has stated that it is taking steps to understand demands as well as how effective existing pathways are, the report's early findings clearly showed that children and young people were finding it difficult to access the service, as it was too adult focused.

As an orthopaedic surgeon, this is one of the reasons why I want us to address the need for mental health emergency care. Services do not reflect the realities of life. If a man can break his leg late on a Saturday night and be treated by a clinician at an A&E department, why can't the same principle apply to someone whose injury is one of the mind? Breaks can mend and, physically, the quicker those breaks are treated, the better; the same too for mental ill health, the chances of stabilisation and recovery are better if responded to quickly. The man with a broken leg has no more right to help than a teenager with a broken mind. He has no more right to ongoing support to recover than a teenager whose mental health might need a period of support. He has no more right to be prioritised when, in six months, he breaks his other leg than the teenager who has a mental relapse. It is time we addressed the imbalance, and with urgency. Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

This debate today is an incredibly important one and apt in its timing. Even before the pandemic, one in four people in Wales were experiencing mental health issues, and data indicates levels of anxiety within the population are higher than pre-pandemic. COVID-19 has of course had an impact on the mental well-being of us all, but for those with pre-existing mental health conditions, life in the pandemic has been an especially difficult time.

We know that the pandemic has had a significant impact on the mental health of young people, with anxiety levels higher than they were, and research shows that mental health issues predominantly start when individuals are children or young people. Therefore, I welcome—I strongly welcome—despite austerity, the additional £5 million of Welsh Government funding to improve and expand school counselling, fund local authorities to recruit and train counsellors, fund the development of professional training for school staff on well-being issues, and improve children's mental well-being.

As a former teacher, I know just how important it is that we provide additional support for young people's mental well-being. And, while providing mental health support is critical, prioritising services to improve prevention is also important. With Wales's income at 2010 levels in 2021, austerity has augmented, undoubtedly, the pressures on services, on social workers, and on crisis mental health teams.

And I know that, for me, speaking personally, music is hugely important to my mental well-being. But, unfortunately, that is not a privilege everyone can today enjoy across Wales. Improving mental health cannot be just reactive, it must be proactive and holistic. Improving access to the arts and sports, allowing us to express our creativity, we already know that improves our mental well-being, and it must be a critical part of our wider arts strategy to improve mental health. We await the imminent work on the national music service to conclude, and I urge both expediency and long-sightedness, and a national music strategy for Wales that is fit for purpose, well funded and caters for additional learning needs, well-being and future generations. And there remains more that we can and should do.

I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to roll out 24-hour mental health crisis support, but the Tories opposite must also recognise—they must recognise, and they fail to do so—that factors such as income insecurity, lack of money and debt impact strongly on mental health, and those already on lower incomes are more likely to experience mental health issues. It is extremely worrying, Deputy Llywydd, to conclude, that the Tory UK Government's £20 universal credit cut coming into force today—this debate is apt, as I said—will have a strong negative impact on the mental health of a huge number of recipients.

So, Minister, what assurance can you provide that services will be improved across Wales, despite ongoing austerity budgets, to ensure that nobody is disadvantaged in their access to services because of their location? And, Minister, what assurance can you provide that priority will be given to preventative services, including within the national music strategy and service, to improve holistic mental well-being, as we recover from this pandemic and step into a brighter and healthier Wales? Thank you.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I was delighted when the new Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being was appointed because I know of her personal passion to want to get to grips with the problems that we've had in our young people's mental health services over the years, and I was a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee when it produced its 'Mind over matter' report. And I'm very much hoping that the Minister will be able to address many of the concerns that, unfortunately, we all know, are still lingering in the aftermath of that report. Many of the recommendations, of course, were accepted by the Welsh Government, some were not, to the angst of the then Chair of the committee. But, quite clearly, this is something that we need to work on a cross-party basis to address and we have always done so when it comes to mental health in this Senedd over the years.

My own constituency, of course, is located in the area that is served by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and it's a matter of deep regret to me that that health board has had in the past major challenges in the delivery of its mental health services, with scandalous care provided to elderly people on the Tawel Fan ward in the Ablett unit. And also, it unfortunately still has some huge and significant problems going forward. It remains in special measures to all intents and purposes, the highest level of intervention, in relation to those mental health challenges that it still has, even some six years on since the organisation went into special measures. I think, Deputy Minister, we will be looking to you to really raise that issue up the priority list, so that we can ensure that the people of north Wales get the levels of care and treatment, access to treatment, that they deserve.

We know at the moment—. Yes, I'll happily take an intervention.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you, Darren Millar, for taking this intervention. I do welcome this debate. World Mental Health Day is 10 October, but we should remember that it's actually every single day. And in terms of the level of support and services, I think the Member is right: we do need to address those issues and I was pleased also that the Minister got this portfolio, with her true passion.

I say this as someone who is a genuine statistic of the one in four people with mental health: do you agree with me that, actually, it's four in four people who have mental health and, some days, mine's worse than yours, and vice versa, and that's an issue we have to address, and there are levels of service, as you suggested, that need to get better and more accessible? There's a level of service, as John Griffiths suggested, with Newport County—a fantastic club—but also there's a service we do to each other, and the Member has picked me up on my terrible days, when I did not want to focus on the day, with a simple bear hug and a cwtsh. That is just as important. Do you agree with that?

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I certainly do agree that, sometimes, just a hug makes a huge difference and I also acknowledge that everybody has bad days with their mental health. They can feel down or upset or anxious about all sorts of different things. And we must recognise that having poor mental health should have no stigma attached to it. We do have to make sure that it is a priority, as Altaf Hussain said, that is given equal priority with people's physical health and unfortunately that's not the case at the moment.

Just returning to the statistics in north Wales, at the moment, mental health assessments within 28 days for people of all ages: only 59 per cent of people are actually seen within that target. And for young people, regrettably, Deputy Minister, it's even worse: just over a quarter are seen within that target for an assessment, that 28-day period, and this is in spite of the focus that you brought to this issue those three years ago when the report was published, 'Mind over matter'. We also know that one in four of those are waiting a very long time for therapy once they've been assessed, up to 18 months in some cases in north Wales, and clearly that's not good enough when we're dealing with people's lives and wanting to give them the tools to be able to equip themselves with improving their mental health for themselves.

The CAMHS unit in Abergele, the north Wales adolescent service, was built in 2008. It was opened by Edwina Hart, the then health Minister. There were 18 beds in that unit, and there are still 18 beds in that unit, but it has never been utilised to its full capacity. At the moment, only 12 beds are actually accessed by people who need them, and we're still unfortunately sending people miles away over the border into England in order to access services that could be accessed on their doorstep in north Wales.

So, I'd urge you, Deputy Minister: keep a focus on this issue. I know that your heart is absolutely with everybody in this Chamber in wanting to get to grips with these challenges, but I would be most grateful and so would my constituents if you took the time to focus on those challenges that have been persistent in north Wales for six years now. We know there are examples of good practice across the country, we just wish it was more consistently applied in our area.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everybody who's spoken today. I do welcome this debate, and with World Mental Health Day almost upon us, this is a good opportunity to discuss the importance of protecting and supporting our mental health and well-being. We're 12 months into the implementation of our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan, revised in response to the pandemic, and I'm looking forward to reporting our progress to Members in a statement in this Chamber next week.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

The pandemic has had a major impact on all our mental health, in very many different ways. As Jack Sargeant has highlighted, we all have mental health, and some days it's good, some days it's not so good. We've seen that the anxiety of those who've felt isolated and alone in lockdown has been matched for some by apprehension about rejoining society as restrictions are lifted. For some, we know that the pandemic represented a chance to reconnect with communities, as neighbours came together in support, and where families were able to spend more time together. That's why, whilst the impact of COVID is likely to be detrimental, it's vital for us to understand in more detail the impact on certain groups.

We continue to strengthen the arrangements that we put in place at the start of the pandemic. Our analytical support is drawing out the latest evidence and outcomes from population surveys in Wales and across the UK. We've established a ministerial mental health oversight and delivery board, which I chair personally. It is providing me with greater assurance on the progress being made in delivering our mental health programme of work, but also the opportunity to challenge if I feel insufficient pace is being employed or progress being made. Importantly, the board membership includes Public Health Wales and our knowledge and analytical services to strengthen our analytical support.

Analysis has shown that whilst levels of anxiety have remained higher than pre pandemic, we have seen fluctuations, and understandably, levels of anxiety have reduced when restrictions have been eased. Aspects of personal health and well-being, concern about the health and well-being of others, and personal finances have all caused worries for individuals to differing extents over the course of lockdown. We also know that the impact has not been felt consistently across all groups. Responses to surveys show that certain groups of people, such as those with pre-existing mental health conditions, young adults, black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, those in lower-income households and women, for example, report higher levels of mental health concerns than others, and have done so throughout the pandemic. We know that surveys by the Children's Commissioner for Wales also highlight the impact on children and young people.

In October 2020, our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan was revised in response to these changes and other evidence, and now includes a range of new or accelerated actions to provide additional support where it is most needed. In particular, we have strengthened and expanded our tier 0 offer to provide open access to a range of non-clinical mental health support. This can be accessed over the phone or online and doesn't need a referral from a health professional. Much of this support is being provided by the third sector, who I join Tom Giffard in thanking, and they are also often so well placed to reach the most marginalised and vulnerable communities across Wales. We know, too, that for some groups, overcoming stigma in seeking mental health support is particularly hard. Our mental health delivery plan therefore includes specific actions that are overseen by the stigma and discrimination sub-group of our mental health national partnership board. This includes a dedicated black, Asian and minority ethnic task and finish group that is currently reviewing what further action is required to support diverse communities accessing mental health support.

I also recognise, in relation to the motion today, the need to strengthen our oversight in response to the incidence of self-harm in Wales. Research led by Swansea University shows that whilst we've seen an increase in self-harm in young people over the last 10 years, numbers have dropped across all ages during the pandemic, based on hospital and accident and emergency admissions. The incidence of self-harm is now similar to pre-pandemic levels. But I am not in any way complacent. Self-harming behaviour is complex, and the NHS admissions data is only one element of the information we need to better understand levels of self-harm in Wales. We will do all that we can to reduce incidence of self-harm. I can confirm that the NHS Wales collaborative commissioning unit and Improvement Cymru are establishing a programme of work to review the evidence and data to support our approach to self-harm prevention.

In response to Janet Finch-Saunders's comments about suicide rates, can I assure the Member that we are monitoring suicide rates very, very closely, as is happening throughout the UK? The evidence currently suggests that we are not seeing a rise in suicide rates as a result of the pandemic, but we are not in any way complacent about that. That's why we are introducing a means of real-time surveillance so that we can—[Interruption.] Go on, then.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Recently, I've been contacted by the Bishop of Bangor, who has raised with me his real, serious concerns about the numbers of suicides in north Wales. In particular, he's highlighted young men. Is it possible, therefore—? He has asked—I was going to write to you—whether you would consider us holding a meeting so that we can discuss those concerns. Because if a man of the cloth comes forward to say that there's an issue, clearly, he's a member working hard in the community, and I think his concerns should be taken seriously.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Janet, for that. I'd be very happy to meet with the individual that you mention, but I should re-emphasise that we are not, thankfully, seeing a rise in suicide rates at the moment. It is very important that all of us are really responsible in the language that we use about suicide, because when we talk about rates, people say things like, 'Rates going through the roof', and what have you. Vulnerable people hear that and it can influence their behaviour.

We are putting in place real-time surveillance so that we are aware, without having to wait for inquests, of the actual suicide rate on an ongoing basis. And what that also means is that we can immediately provide support to the families and others bereaved by suicide. You're absolutely right about the impact of suicide; it devastates families, friends and whole communities. What we are looking to do—and I'm confident we're making progress in that—is put in place a post-suicide bereavement pathway for everyone affected by suicide.

Turning, then, to mental health services during the pandemic, as Members know, they have remained accessible during the pandemic, but waiting times to access support have been affected and some targets have not been met. We acknowledge that waiting times across Wales, especially for children and young people, are a challenge, but one I can assure Members I am determined to address as a matter of urgency.

However, changing targets or creating new ones is not the answer here. In my regular contact with health boards, I am pressing them on my plans to address waiting times, and have gone further when I have felt the situation is more serious, while recognising that this is not something that can be resolved overnight. And, as I've already said, we've invested heavily in our tier 0 open access support. At the same time, I am determined to progress our early intervention and prevention whole-system approach for children and adults, to ensure that everyone can access the right support at the right time. This will only help service pressures and waiting times to reduce.

We are making good progress to improve crisis care, and I'll provide more information on this in my statement next week. I can reiterate our commitment to have all-age 24/7 mental health single points of contact available in each health board area by April 2022. However, the NHS response is only one element of a wider cross-Government and multi-agency response that is needed. As John Griffiths said in his contribution, mental health is everybody's business.

I fully understand that having the right workforce in place is crucial, and our mental health delivery plan includes this as an underpinning aim. As well as expanding the workforce, we also need the right mix of professionals able to provide mental health support. Health Education and Improvement Wales and Social Care Wales are making good progress in developing a transformative, longer term workforce vision and plan for mental health and social care in Wales.

We know that the pandemic has had a huge impact on our whole NHS workforce, so as well as the forward planning work that HEIW are undertaking, I'm also looking at what further we can do now to strengthen our existing workforce in the light of the current workforce pressures and our forecast increasing mental health demand. I will say more about that to the Chamber in due course.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Deputy Minister, if you can conclude now.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Oh, have I run out of time?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I've given you additional time because of the intervention, but you've gone well beyond that.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I just turn, then, to the Plaid Cymru amendment? I have discussed these plans that Plaid are putting forward with Rhun ap Iorwerth previously, but I believe that our current approach to ensure preventative support is provided across a number of settings—through schools, colleges, youth clubs and services, where children live their lives on an everyday basis—is the right one. Our new NEST framework, which is being co-produced with young people across Wales, together with our whole-school approach, will deliver that.

Can I just conclude, Deputy Llywydd, by saying that driving change and improvement in mental health support, particularly for children and young people, has been central to my work in this Senedd? It was under my leadership that the children and young people committee's 'Mind over matter' report was published. I am proud of the changes that report has led to, in particular the development of our whole-school approach and a really strong focus on early intervention. There is more work to do across the whole system, but Members can be in no doubt that I am absolutely determined to deliver on this agenda for children and for adults in my new role in Government. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I thank all Members for contributing to the debate and to the Deputy Minister for responding.

Samuel Kurtz (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you to all Members for taking part, and to the Deputy Minister for her response and steadfast determination to bring about the necessary change in this.

We stand here at a critical moment, and with the topic being debated today so pertinent, it would be remiss of me not to share my own personal story. Like the Member for Alyn and Deeside, I too am a statistic. Like many last year, during the lockdown, once the novelty of homeworking wore off and only seeing friends on Zoom call quizzes, I quickly felt isolated, lonely, and this was compounded by the fact that I lived alone. As Delyth Jewell, the Member for South Wales East, mentioned, it's difficult to quantify it, and I didn't realise that this was happening at the time, that I was struggling. I became short-tempered and snappy. I swapped the early morning walks to remain hidden under the duvet. I now look back and realise, with absolute clarity, that my mental health was under strain. Thankfully, as the lockdown eased, I was able to meet with friends and play sport. I know that for the Member for Islwyn, it was music; for me, it was sport. I felt the improvements to my mental health immediately. I know, from speaking to friends and colleagues, that I wasn't the only one who felt this way during the lockdowns.

But it shows that no-one is immune to poor mental health. Many of us, at some stage, will suffer to varying degrees. As Altaf Hussain said, mental health knows no barriers and does not discriminate. However, as the Member for South Wales West, Tom Giffard, rightly highlighted, Welsh mental health services were struggling long before COVID, and, as it stands, I suspect the same struggles will continue long after the pandemic. That's why this motion today, before Members, is so important. We've heard the many statistics this afternoon that make for difficult listening: one in four will suffer mental health problems at some point in their lives; loneliness has increased to 26 per cent during the pandemic; the sharp rise of antidepressants being prescribed, as the Member for Aberconwy mentioned; and that the Welsh Government's target of 80 per cent of local primary mental health support service assessments being undertaken within 28 days has not been met for the last eight months. As a consequence of this, we've seen community-led organisations across Wales lead the way in delivering life-saving mental health services.

I'd like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to two charitable organisations that do amazing work to support people with their mental health. In Pembrokeshire, former soldier Barry John had an idea: to help support our armed forces veterans with their mental health through art therapy. From that idea, the VC Gallery in Pembroke Dock and Haverfordwest was born. With Barry's artistic background and his involvement in mental health work, he realised the need in the community for his expertise and experiences. Now, the VC Gallery is working with veterans, older people, children, and anyone who feels they need time out to socialise and express themselves through art. Nationally, there are organisations such as the DPJ Foundation who work with our agricultural community, a sector with alarmingly high levels of mental health issues, to help those who need it to share the load. From the tragedy of Daniel Picton-Jones's suicide, his widow, Emma, decided to set up the foundation to support the mental health of those in the farming sector, for those who feel just as Daniel did, providing them with the support that he didn't know how to get.

These exceptional charities are only two of many that provide support, guidance, a listening ear and even a shoulder to cry on for those who need it. And in responding to the Member from Newport East, it’s fantastic what Newport county are doing. I know, personally, that sport is such a great motivator in improving mental health. But it shouldn’t be down to sports clubs and charities to do this work alone. That’s why this motion is so very important—to deliver a national roll-out of 24-hour mental health crisis centres, a clear mental health workforce plan and annual reports and targets for waiting times for mental health treatment, including a reduction in backlogs.

The more we learn about mental health, indeed, the more we talk about mental health, the better we can provide helpful and targeted support to those in our lives who struggle with mental health conditions. It’s okay not to be okay, but it is not okay to sit on our hands when it comes to mental health provision. Deputy Minister, I look forward to your statement on mental health provision going forward, but today, I urge all Members to vote for this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? Yes. Therefore I will defer voting on this motion until voting time.

10. Plaid Cymru Debate: Healthcare workers’ pay

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The next item is the Plaid Cymru debate on healthcare workers' pay. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. We've thanked them; we've clapped for them; we've come to appreciate them perhaps more than ever over the past 18 months. But after sacrificing so much, our NHS health and care workers across Wales deserve now to be properly and fairly rewarded through their pay. The least we think Welsh Government could do is stand alongside healthcare workers in Wales and commit to a rise above that proposed by the NHS pay review body, which, of course, doesn't even keep up with inflation. That’s why we’re holding this debate today.

Experiences of the pandemic, of course, only reinforced what was already known about the NHS and the health and care workforce—one that was suffering from staff shortages and low morale, which operated in an environment deprived of investment and resources. Now add to that a real-terms pay cut, it’s no wonder so many health and care workers have voted through their unions and representative bodies to express their anger at what they have been given.

Since when is the Welsh Government in the business of matching what we have seen from UK Government, which of course, first of all, offered up that derisory 1 per cent only to then increase to 3 per cent? We do not believe that Welsh Government should be merely matching that. 'Money doesn’t grow on trees', said the First Minister. Of course he’s right, but a failure, I think, to invest in, to support, to attract and to retain staff—the best staff, who we need—within health and care risks taking a big swinging axe to any hope of growth, of morale within health and care and of nurturing the staff that we should be treasuring.

In a recent survey, members of the Welsh NHS Confederation identified recruitment and retention of the workforce as one of the main challenges facing the NHS in Wales. To ensure NHS careers remain an attractive proposition, to keep the workforce wanting to provide care within the NHS, and being able to afford to, the workforce need to know that they are appreciated, and fair pay is at the heart of that.

During the pandemic, the nursing workforce in Wales provided clinically complex care day in, day out—leadership shown; compassionate support shown for colleagues, for patients and their families. It’s always been the case though that healthcare workers provide that level of care and dedication 24/7, 365 days a year. But we can’t just take that for granted. We need to recognise that Wales has a chronic workforce shortage. It’s failing to attract sufficient individuals into the healthcare professions; failing to encourage healthcare staff to stay. The Welsh Government has to tackle these existing workforce shortages and ensure that the healthcare professions are an attractive career option—well-paid and meaningfully supported. Fair pay is at the heart of that.

The Royal College of Nursing in Wales have, of course, led the charge to ensure that nurses in Wales get a salary that recognises their contribution to society, not just to the NHS. Throughout the pandemic, we have all witnessed the most impressive—deeply impressive—demonstration of nursing, seeing it as the highly skilled profession it is, deserving of fair pay and we owe so much to the nursing profession, as we do to other workers right across the health and care system. But now, they feel unappreciated, and who can blame them?

Unions and representative bodies have held pay consultations. A pay consultation by Unison Cymru found that 87 per cent of healthcare workers voted to oppose the offer; Unite Wales's NHS members have voted to reject their 3 per cent pay increase; 93.9 per cent of RCN Wales members who voted said that they think that the pay award is unacceptable, with only 6.1 per cent saying that it is acceptable. The RCN has decided this afternoon to move to an indicative ballot on industrial action in England, with a decision for Wales expected to be announced soon.

We hear that the Government is in talks with the unions, and I hope that the unions are successful in those discussions for the sake of the workers, for the sake of their members. And perhaps the Minister can confirm today that those talks do include a substantive pay increase—that the possibility of a substantive pay increase is on the table. There's been huge frustration in the RCN and its members at suggestions that they have somehow been pulling out of discussions with Government; it's the Government that's been saying, 'You will not discuss a substantive pay increase across the board'. I understand that a meeting is to take place perhaps as early as tomorrow, and again, perhaps the Minister can confirm that a substantive pay increase is on the table.

Other measures considered when looking at pay and conditions, measures such as increased annual leave and holiday pay are, of course, welcome, but surely the Government can accept that, at the end of the day, to really show gratitude and appreciation and recognition of the work done by our health and care workers, that has to include now a real-terms pay increase. It is time to reward our health and care workers with a new fair pay deal.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be de-selected. I call on Russell George to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I firstly thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate today and also add my own thanks to healthcare workers who have kept Wales safe and fought, I think, so hard during the course of the pandemic in the fight against coronavirus?

I move amendment 1, Deputy Presiding Officer, in the name of my colleague Darren Millar, and I firmly believe, as all Welsh Conservatives do here in the Senedd, that the Welsh Government should specifically recognise the dedication of all staff in the health and social care workforce in Wales. We wouldn't be in this position today if it wasn't for the huge efforts given by our healthcare workers. I think there'll be no doubt across this Chamber, Deputy Presiding Officer, that the NHS has been under immense pressure over the last 18 months to two years, and I think it's pleasing that the UK Government has provided, of course, that additional funding during that time, including £8.6 billion to fight coronavirus, the £2 billion for the 2021-22 financial year, and, of course, the £1.9 billion of additional funding that the Welsh Government can then spend on the NHS over the course of the next three years.

I think, from my perspective, what I would like to say in this contribution is that looking after our healthcare workers isn't just about pay. That's an important element, but I also think it’s important that the Welsh Government tackles working conditions; mental health support—this follows, of course, the previous debate led by us as Welsh Conservatives; retention; and upskilling of staffing gaps within the NHS to ensure that the workforce is fit for the future. I think what we should be doing is looking to support the pressure, taking the pressure off our healthcare workers by making sure that adequate staffing is provided. This is one of the reasons why I’ve put forward an NHS covenant Wales Bill in the recent Members’ ballot. This Bill would guarantee the NHS remains in public hands, free at the point of use, and it would guarantee NHS staff always receive the pay recommended by the independent NHS pay review body. And not only this, it would strive to, of course, improve staff well-being with more flexible working hours, increased holiday, greater access to childcare and mental health support. These are concrete plans for a duty to support NHS staff during their careers.

My colleagues and I have said that front-line workers should be treated differently within the pay award. We have previously argued that the Welsh Government must provide pay commitments to the nursing profession, which is separate from other NHS staff, and it should also be the role of the Welsh Government to talk to unions and the independent pay review body to discuss these possibilities. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan, to formally move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Formally.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Diolch. Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I recall the statement during the debate on the social partnership Bill that Joel James made, and it was quite a strong statement. The words he used, I’ve got them on the screen here:

‘this Government is chiefly concerned with looking after their trade union paymasters.'

And, 'Surely the Deputy Minister can see that there is a clear issue in how trade unions will now have undue influence over policy'.

Those are words used by a Member of the Conservative benches, and at the time I had grave concerns about what was said, and there was a lot of concerns raised in this Chamber about that. But we need to remember the trade unions are the most effective representation of the workforce that has been seen in this country. I’ve had conversations with my own trade union, Unison, about this issue, and I’m very glad to have had that conversation, particularly as chair of the Unison Senedd Members group, and I enable links between Senedd Members and Unison to have those discussions.

If there is a criticism of the Government on this, and I feel there is a criticism, it's that the trade unions—. I’ve said this to the Minister myself privately, that I feel that the trade unions could have been involved more comprehensively and more deeply earlier on in this process. I think that is an issue that I would hope the Minister would recognise. And I know that there’s a system, an independent body that recommends NHS pay that is set up for that purpose, but nonetheless, we are nothing if we do not listen to the workforce, and the body that achieves that are those trade unions. So, I do feel that I’d like the Minister to respond on that issue.

But nonetheless, yesterday in the response to the leader of Plaid Cymru, the First Minister made clear that there is a limited pot of funding and many demands on it, and that is exactly why the Welsh Government is looking to introduce constitutional reform and see this concept of radical federalism that would free up the Welsh Government to do exactly as Rhun ap Iorwerth has said in his speech. One of the things that I would like to see, for example, is a Holtham levy, but we must have a different distribution of powers across this United Kingdom if that Holtham levy was to be levied for social care.

Councillor Carol Andrews is a Labour councillor in Bargoed, but also a nurse at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. She has raised with me the heroic efforts that she and other nurses are making there, particularly through COVID. Her daughter, Megan, has just graduated with a first-class honours degree in nursing, and will be a fantastic nurse in the future.

NHS workers do deserve a better pay deal, and I’m glad to hear that that discussion is ongoing with Welsh Government. And Unison, rather than meet with the leader of Plaid Cymru, I’d say to Unison they were right instead to meet with the Welsh Government, and continue those discussions, because my concern is when negotiations are held with opposition parties, and those points are then made to score party political points in First Minister’s questions, it detracts entirely from the seriousness of this issue. What needs to be done, as the Minister is doing, is for that constructive conversation to continue. And I know that that is what's happening with responsible unions, like mine, Unison, and we look forward to hearing the result and the outcome of that. We know that there's a potential for industrial action; I urge the Minister and the unions to work together to do all they can to avoid that.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Perhaps I should begin by declaring an interest: my wife was a nurse throughout her life until she had to retire recently, and many of the nurses who worked with her continue to be close friends to us as a family. And, as a result of that, I have seen, I have been an eyewitness to, the impact of the pandemic on them as nurses over the past 18 months. On a personal level, I've seen the strain that they've suffered, the challenges that they've had to face, and the fatigue that they are now feeling. And the things that I have seen have been confirmed by the recent survey by the RCN, which demonstrates that 38 per cent of nurses are considering leaving the profession because of difficult working conditions and huge work pressures, with 58 per cent of them believing that an entirely insufficient wage is the root of their discontent.

The failure to retain and recruit staff, as we've already heard, and the fact that so many are away from their posts because of illness, has exacerbated the situation, which means that there is now a crisis in the health and care field. And there's no doubt in my mind that giving a pay increase greater than the 3 per cent recommended would be a way of retaining experienced staff and would demonstrate that they are respected, and would attract younger people into the profession.

As has already been said, the proposal of a 3 per cent wage increase means a real-terms cut in their wages, on top of the 1.25 per cent increase in national insurance contributions, as well as the significant increase in living costs.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I spoke last night to a senior nursing sister, who has given nearly 40 years of her life to the NHS. She told me very movingly that never during her long career has she felt so low, so burnt out and so undervalued. She was telling me how, during the early days of the pandemic as a community nurse, she and her colleagues visited patients without adequate personal protective equipment, not knowing whether those patients who had often been discharged from hospitals had COVID, and how they felt terribly vulnerable. And yet, through all of this, they carried on and never flinched in their obligations to the patients in their care. These brave health workers put their own lives at risk in order to save the lives of others and worked long, tiring hours, over and above what was expected from them, to look after those who utterly depended on them. And what we saw across the country were countless examples of selfless sacrifice, and, in circumstances worse than we've ever seen since the second world war, our health workers showed a stoicism and conviction that was as unstinting as it was inspiring.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Will the Member conclude now, please?

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm coming to the end.

And when we clapped, as we heard earlier on, they were given hope that, at last, Governments would give them a decent wage in recognition of the challenging tasks they carry out day in, day out. But, unfortunately, that has turned into dismay. For them, the thunderous clapping on our doorsteps has become a distant echo as despair and disillusionment has returned in heaps, because the clapping never paid for bills and their mortgage and food on the table.

Cefin Campbell (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

So—and I finish with this—things don't have to be this way. One decision by the Government to give that wage that they deserve would change the situation entirely and would give them their dues. Thank you very much.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Well, I would've had four and a half minutes if I'd known I'd be allowed it.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

[Inaudible.]—Members to respect the Chair. Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. I've worked all my life with nurses, and it is right that we recognise the contribution of all our healthcare workers across the NHS and social care. We know that the past 18 months have been the most challenging. Like so many others in our public services, those on the front line of care have witnessed the human tragedy of the pandemic. The NHS pay review body report, published in July, is an exceptionally detailed report relying on a significant body of evidence, submissions and analysis. The document contains a range of points made by Welsh Ministers, and noted that a decision as to whether or not any additional money required would come from existing budgets in due course.

We all recognise that Welsh Ministers now adding any further uplift in staff pay would need to find that money from existing budgets, and, in their evidence to the review, the Welsh Government said that, the higher the pay award, the more difficult the choices would be on how to find it and other priority ambitions for the Welsh NHS. I am pleased that the UK Conservative Government has not only provided £8.6 billion to Wales in the effort to fight coronavirus, on top of more than £2.1 billion for the 2021-22 financial year, but has announced it will also be investing an extra £1.9 billion into the Welsh NHS over the next three years. In my view, if the Welsh Government wants to pay for further increases, then it can hardly say that it is short of money. I acknowledge how difficult this is for many staff who believe that their contribution should be rewarded.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I feel the same for our social care staff too. In the pandemic, the media and the political narrative largely overlooked the work of those caring for many older people whose lives were coming to an end because of COVID-19, experiencing the trauma in the residential and nursing home sector, where residents were dying at a faster rate, and where those staff members became surrogate family members in those final hours, comforting them at the end. The pandemic exposed how poorly we have recognised the contribution of our social care staff. We must put this right. And whilst I welcome the proposals to address pay as a part of new commissioning arrangements for the social care services, we need to be robust in driving more money towards supporting this crucial part of our health and care sector. Thank you very much.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Already, in this Senedd, we have discussed the principle of UBI and the importance of giving dignity to people by giving them an income that they can live on. It was the Labour Government, of course, that introduced the minimum wage in order to give some level of dignity and assurance to the workforce. That fundamental principle of a fair wage for the work that you do, giving people dignity, is way gone. But, here we are, again, in 2021, having to argue for giving fair salaries to workers that reflects their work, their commitment and their ability, and, indeed, a salary that will attract people to a career in care.

Over a half of the NHS workforce are the main wage earners in their households. Tens of thousands of households in Wales are reliant on nurses' wages in order to live, to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. More shockingly still, one in five of the workforce has to have other employment in addition to working for the NHS. Isn't this alone enough to show the importance of wage levels in the NHS, and that the current salaries aren't sufficient for many people?

According to thorough research by the Royal Society for Arts, Manufactures and Commerce, almost 60 per cent of the NHS workforce can't strike a good work-life balance, because they work more hours than they are paid for, and often work unsociable hours. Indeed, three quarters of the nursing workforce say that they work overtime, leading to an increase in levels of stress and mental health problems, as well as other problems. This, in turn, is costly to the health service. An FOI request to the north Wales health board prior to the pandemic showed that 77,000 staff days had been lost as a result of stress, which amounted to £5.5 million lost to the service. It's no surprise, therefore, that a high level of people are leaving the NHS workforce. The money's there, but it's being put in the wrong places, and this, in turn, leads to a reliance on agency nurses and far higher costs for the health service—tens of millions of pounds per annum, and that's increasing annually.

A fortnight ago, there was a debate here on the ambulance service, and everyone was agreed that the shortage of beds in hospitals was a core part of the problem. In order to resolve that, of course, we need more nurses, and it is well known now, for a decade and more, that there is a shortage in nursing staff. The work of Anne Marie Rafferty shows that, irrefutably, a shortage of nurses leads to an increase in mortality rates among patients. A shortage of nurses leads to more accidents, mistakes and an increase in infections. Do we truly expect to meet the nursing needs without giving nurses a fair wage? And who are the people suffering most from this economic uncertainty?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

The Member will have to come to a conclusion, please.

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I am coming to a close. It's women and people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities that make up the most of the nursing workforce, and this is the same cohort of people that is at the bottom of every league in terms of equality and fairness, and these are the people who are suffering because of this policy of not paying them properly. These are the people who support our health service, and without them the service would collapse. We must show our thanks not by clapping, but by giving them a fair salary for their work. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.