Scottish Parliament, 20 March 2025

320 contributions from 75 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning. The first item of business is general question time.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

To ask the Scottish Government when it will conclude its assessment of the case for a new rail station at Newburgh. (S6O-04458)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

My officials continue to work collaboratively with the South East of Scotland Transport Partnership, which is leading on the Newburgh transport appraisal, and its partner, the Newburgh train station group, and are actively reviewing the latest documents received from SEStran on that. The appraisal involves consideration of a range of multimodal options, including the option of a new station at Newburgh. I have also made clear to my officials that I would like their advice before the end of May, as I understand that the work has been on-going for some time, with Scottish Government support and funding.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I know that the case that has been submitted to Transport Scotland makes a compelling argument for the economic transformation not just of Newburgh but of Abernethy and the surrounding area. However, I feel that the cabinet secretary and officials will fully understand that economic opportunity only if they come to Newburgh and meet people and businesses to understand their vision for economic transformation for the area.

The cabinet secretary will be aware that Willie Rennie, Claire Baker, Murdo Fraser and I wrote to her this week to invite her to Newburgh. I reiterate that invitation and ask the cabinet secretary whether she will consider coming to Newburgh before a decision is made, which, on the basis of her first answer, appears will happen in May.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I appreciate the local community’s efforts in assisting SEStran with its transport appraisal for Newburgh. As I have said, the appraisal involves consideration of a range of multimodal options, including the option of a new station at Newburgh. The context of places is important in those considerations. The next stage would be the business case, and strategic economic and social aspects would be built in to that, if there were a recommendation to proceed.

I reassure Mark Ruskell that I am aware of the reasoning behind the invitation from him and other local MSPs, and I would be delighted to accept that invitation to visit Newburgh, as diaries allow.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

One of the arguments made by the successful campaign for Levenmouth was the economic boost that it would bring to the local area. A similar case can be made for Newburgh. How is the Scottish Government evaluating the benefits that have been brought to Levenmouth and using that to inform the case for and its understanding of Newburgh?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

We must receive the appraisal from SEStran. It provided additional information as recently as December, and part of the assessment work involves looking at the additional documents.

In relation to the stages, including moving from appraisal under the Scottish transport appraisal guidance to the business case, any lessons learned from elsewhere will inform decision making. However, that decision making must be based on what is put in front of officials and recommended to me, based on the merits of the case in and of itself.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I am delighted that the cabinet secretary is coming to Newburgh on the banks of the Tay. It is a beautiful setting, and the only thing missing is a train station. Therefore, I hope that she agrees positively to the recommendation; indeed, the community is behind it. Given that the option has been considered as part of the budget process, will she give special consideration to having a station at Newburgh and be open to making it happen?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I recognise Willie Rennie’s enthusiasm for and long-time support of a station at Newburgh as the constituency MSP. I will not second guess what recommendations will be made to me, but I look forward to a visit to the most beautiful part of Fife—in his consideration, I suspect; I see from other members that there might be competition—and I fully understand the economic, social and wider need.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

To ask the Scottish Government what the estimated cost would be of permanently extending free rail travel to companions of blind persons national entitlement card holders, in light of the campaigning by Sight Scotland and Deafblind Scotland. (S6O-04459)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

One of our aims for a publicly owned ScotRail is to make rail travel more accessible to more people. Following representations from Sight Scotland, Deafblind Scotland and MSPs from different parties, I am pleased to announce that, on 1 April, we will launch a 12-month pilot programme providing free travel to companions of blind concessionary card holders on all ScotRail services.

ScotRail will meet the costs associated with the pilot from its existing budget, and Transport Scotland, working with ScotRail, will monitor and evaluate the impact of the pilot to inform the next steps. At that point, they should be able to identify the costs of providing that service on a permanent basis.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

It is highly encouraging to witness the expansion to companions and the Government’s dedication to enhancing accessibility in Scotland’s public transportation system. Can the minister confirm when she will next meet Transport Scotland and ScotRail to discuss those plans and any next steps?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I meet my officials at Transport Scotland and ScotRail regularly, and they will be monitoring the impacts of the initiative and keeping me informed of progress over the next 12 months. We all want it to succeed in making travel more affordable and accessible to blind and visually impaired people. I hope that MSPs across the chamber will help promote it locally, too.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The cabinet secretary knows that I have been campaigning for this for years, so I am delighted that there will be a pilot. Does she agree that we do not want the pilot to end suddenly and for a gap to arise as a result? Will there be constant evaluation of the pilot to ensure that, if it is a success, it will just continue?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I want to put on record the efforts of Graham Simpson MSP in pursuing this issue for some time now. I am sure that he will share in the success of the pilot and help promote it locally.

Transport Scotland will monitor and evaluate the pilot over the next 12 months and report conclusions to ministers. Sight Scotland has engaged with blind and visually impaired people through survey and focus groups to support evaluation.

I should say that this is not just about cost; we will also look at how the free travel is used. That qualitative information will be important, too.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to build on the reported successes of the Aberdeen city region deal, which is due to conclude its 10-year plan next year. (S6O-04460)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The Scottish Government’s £125 million investment in the Aberdeen city region deal is supporting the long-term development of the regional economy. The deal is delivering support to grow the energy, life sciences, and food and drink sectors, as well as delivering enhanced digital and transport infrastructure. We will build on that through our 10-year, £500 million just transition fund, as well as continuing to work towards delivering the Scottish Government’s offshore wind hub in the north-east. All of that will support innovation in high-growth sectors, secure additional private investment, boost productivity and create high-quality jobs.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

As recent reports suggest, Great British Energy still has no employees and United Kingdom Government funding for Acorn has yet to materialise. It is more important than ever for the Scottish Government to continue to invest in Aberdeen and the north-east. Can the minister say any more about the Scottish Government’s plans to boost growth in the region through projects such as the offshore wind hub that he has just mentioned?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

North-east business leaders wrote to the UK Government to set out the positive impacts of the Acorn project and the urgency of progressing it. We stand with them and continue to push the UK Government to commit to awarding track 2 status to Acorn and the Scottish cluster.

Our budget sets out a record £150 million of capital investment in offshore wind, as part of our commitment to invest up to £500 million over five years in the sector. We will also establish an offshore wind planning hub in the north-east to provide an additional route for industry to engage. That, alongside our 10-year just transition fund, will maximise the economic opportunities of our journey to net zero and create thousands of well-paid green jobs across Scotland.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The 2016 Aberdeen city region deal included a promise from the Government of £200 million over 10 years to drastically speed up rail journey times to the central belt. However, the Government has covertly dropped “2026” from the project’s title and only £16 million has been spent, with mere months to go. Why has it broken its promise and yet again betrayed the people of the north-east?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The significant investment that I outlined in my answers to Jackie Dunbar demonstrates the Government’s significant commitment to the people of the north-east and its significant investment across a range of areas.

On Mr Kerr’s specific point, an outline business case for the wider Aberdeen route upgrade, including service improvements and route decarbonisation, was concluded, and it has been duly considered by Transport Scotland’s investment decision board. A decision was made to progress the procurement of a replacement intercity train fleet as design works continue, the latter being fully funded this financial year. Options for progressing to the next stage of the Aberdeen to central belt service improvements remain under consideration.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Question 4 was not lodged.

James Dornan (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Cathcart)

To ask the Scottish Government what measures are being taken to mitigate any impact on disability payment recipients in Scotland of reported United Kingdom Government benefit reductions. (S6O-04462)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The Scottish Government calls on the UK Government to recognise the anger and the real anxiety that it has caused disabled people right across the UK and to scrap the cruel reforms, which drastically reduce financial support for disabled people. As we were given no prior notice of the announcement and as we still await many of the details of the proposals, we will scrutinise what we can to understand the impacts on devolved disability benefits and on the people who rely on this support.

James Dornan (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Cathcart)

Does the cabinet secretary agree that the transfer of disability benefits to Social Security Scotland cannot come quickly enough, given the draconian policies that have been promoted by the current and previous Westminster Governments, and that, without Social Security Scotland, some of our most vulnerable citizens would be left without the support that they need? Does the cabinet secretary also agree that the behaviour of the two principal unionist parties towards the most vulnerable in our society highlights why we need independence—and soon?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

James Dornan is quite right on both counts. I reassure him that the case transfer process will be completed on time. All the estimations are that that part of the project is going very well. However, I share his deep concerns about the proposals that are coming forward—from a Labour Government. Whether or not the proposals have been consulted on, there is real concern about their impact.

I will meet with disabled people’s organisations this afternoon, and I have written to the secretary of state once again, asking for an urgent meeting and for the publication of the equality impact assessments. However, we must recognise that the changes that are being pushed through by the UK Labour Government will push more disabled people into poverty. This is austerity on the backs of some of the most vulnerable in our society.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

To ask the Scottish Government when it last met the chief executive of Fife Council to discuss the housing emergency. (S6O-04463)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

The permanent secretary and the director of local government and housing met with the chief executive of Fife Council on 27 November 2024 to discuss the housing emergency, and I will meet with Councillor Hamilton in due course. In addition, Scottish Government officials meet with Fife Council officials regularly on a range of housing-related matters, including the housing emergency response.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

I refer the minister to recent correspondence about a housing case that I have raised with Fife Council, which I copied the minister in to. In that case, which has, sadly, been going on for some years, the health visitor commented:

“I can categorically state that, in my 20 years of community nursing, of which 12 health visiting, I have never seen such living conditions and high level of environmental risk to children.”

I ask the minister what has to happen, in 21st century Scotland, for this family to get a decent home.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am aware of the case and we are engaging with Fife Council on the issue. The standard of temporary accommodation is important, which is why the Scottish Government published the temporary accommodation standards framework in 2023, to ensure that accommodation is of a high standard and that households receive the support services that meet their needs. Reducing the number of households—particularly households with children—in temporary accommodation and the time that they spend in it is a top priority for this Government.

Increasing housing supply is key to reducing homelessness, and we will continue to work with partners to deliver more affordable homes, the majority of which will be for social rent. Acquiring larger properties that are suitable for families will help to reduce the number of households—including families with children—that are in temporary accommodation. Scottish Government funding of £42 million in 2024-25 will help to increase the supply of social housing of the right type and size where it is needed most.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Before I call Meghan Gallacher for a brief supplementary question, I would be grateful if members entering the chamber could take their seats quickly and quietly.

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Given the responses to amendments this morning at the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, I am not sure that what the minister says is quite accurate. Fife Council underspent its housing budget by almost £9 million this year, despite declaring a housing emergency a year ago. Included in that £9 million was £3.5 million for the property acquisition programme. Acquisition plays a key role in any council’s housing approach, but it does not necessarily add properties to the overall stock. Will the minister engage with council officials to ensure that all levers are available to local government to prevent slippage? Will he also give an update on the roll-out of the planning hubs? We have not heard much about those since the Government’s announcement.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

On that particular point, during the first half of this session of Parliament, we made a record sum of funding—£120 million—available to Fife Council. This year, Fife Council’s budget will increase from £26.2 million to £30.1 million, and those additional funds, which are the council’s share of the national £40 million fund, are intended for the acquisition of properties. The purpose of acquiring properties and of the work that we are doing with Fife Council in relation to voids is to bring properties into circulation as soon as possible.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the deposit return scheme, including whether it will be appointing a deposit management organisation on schedule in April 2025. (S6O-04464)

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

The Scottish Government remains committed to delivering an interoperable deposit return scheme with England and Northern Ireland in 2027 and continues to move ahead with preparations. We have received an industry-backed application to run Scotland’s DRS as well as the scheme in England and Northern Ireland.

We are currently assessing the application jointly with the United Kingdom Government and Northern Ireland. As it will be an industry-run scheme, we must be assured that the applicant can deliver DRS and act on behalf of all businesses. Any appointment will be announced once the assessment concludes, which we expect to be in April.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

In November 2024, the Welsh Government announced that it would include glass in its deposit return scheme. The regulations for Scotland’s DRS, which were passed in 2020, include glass. Before the minister changes those regulations to undo the will of the Parliament and remove glass from Scotland’s scheme, will he explain how Wales has been able to secure an exemption to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 in order to implement its own scheme, which includes glass, when Scotland has not?

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

I realise the member’s commitment to the issue. Her question is one that would be usefully addressed to the UK Government, as the matter is not a shining example of the usefulness to Scotland of the so-called UK internal market act, which has again prevented a devolved nation from moving forward with the deposit return scheme as intended. Urgent action is needed from the UK Government to repeal the internal market act and restore the full powers of devolved Parliaments, so that they might undertake useful schemes of that kind.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Biffa is suing the Scottish ministers for a reputed sum of £160 million. Has the Scottish Government made, or will it make, any provision in its annual accounts for potential losses not only in that case but in cases of other major companies incurring costs of tens of millions of pounds due to faith in assurances that the former minister apparently made?

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

As the member is well aware, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on live litigation—[ Interruption .] I do not know why people find it unusual that ministers cannot comment on live litigation. However—[ Interruption .]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear the minister.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

However, I confirm to the member that we will deal with the question of the accounts as a contingent liability in line with our public finance rules and commitments.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Since the disastrous collapse of the Scottish Government’s last attempt at DRS, a UK-wide scheme is being planned and a Scottish Government circular economy strategy is being prepared, in addition to the extension of producer responsibility. Can the minister confirm that work is being carried out to assess the impact of those changes on local authorities with regard to jobs, finances and recycling services?

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us have a brief response, minister.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

Once appointed, the scheme administrator will work closely with stakeholders, including local government, to ensure that those questions are taken account of. It is worth saying that more than 50 countries around the world have similar schemes.

We all recognise the important contribution that such schemes can make to tackling problems such as littering and our carbon footprint in Scotland. I hope that all members will work together to ensure that the scheme is progressed, and I am sure that local authorities will be part of that.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

That concludes general questions.

First Minister’s Question Time

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Scotland should be able to build ferries here, in Scotland, to serve the islands of Scotland and to carry the people of Scotland, so why will seven new vessels for CalMac Ferries instead be built in Poland?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

It is for the simple reason that a competitive tendering process was undertaken to ensure that we can deliver seven new vessels for some of the smaller routes that are part of the CalMac network. That process involved companies in Scotland and in other countries, as is consistent with the terms of the procurement legislation that the Government must follow.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Those vessels could and should have been built here, in Scotland. Ferguson Marine could and should be fit to win such contracts. For decades, before the Scottish National Party had anything to do with it, Ferguson Marine built ferries on budget and on time, but now, under the direct control of John Swinney’s Government, it is unable to compete. Will the First Minister tell us, frankly, who is responsible for that?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Scottish Government intervened when there was a risk that Ferguson’s would cease trading on the Clyde. We arranged for new ownership to take the yard forward. The Government subsequently took decisions that led to significant orders being placed with Ferguson’s following a competitive due process. We are in the process of concluding the small vessel replacement programme—we are in the 10-day standstill period, so I can give little detail to the Parliament on that process at the moment. Most recently, the Government has supported the work at Ferguson’s through additional investment of up to £14.2 million in the yard in order to support it and guarantee its long-term future.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Two ferries with a £97 million price tag will end up costing taxpayers more than £400 million and entering service at least seven years late—

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

Now you are talking down the yard.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear Mr Findlay.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

That all began with the contract that John Swinney personally approved 10 years ago. It was rushed through for one purpose, which was to promote the interests of the SNP—not the interests of islanders or taxpayers. The evidence shows that the entire process was rigged and that rules were repeatedly broken. There was not even a bog-standard financial guarantee to protect taxpayers. John Swinney personally signed off a process that was not just flawed but corrupt.

Members:

Oh!

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear Mr Findlay.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

After 10 years, Ferguson’s is still dealing with the fallout. Does John Swinney accept that his actions a decade ago are causing Scottish shipyards to lose contracts to eastern Europe today?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

No, I do not accept that in any way, shape or form. If the Government had not intervened and I had not taken actions when the yard faced difficulties, there would be people today who would not have had a livelihood for the best part of a decade. I know that that does not concern Russell Findlay much, because he represents a party that destroyed the industrial base of Scotland. That is what happened under the awful leadership of Conservative Governments in the United Kingdom. This Government is working with the workforce to make sure that we can secure the future of the yard.

At the heart of Russell Findlay’s question is a complete contradiction because, on the one hand, he has accused the Government of rigging a process in the past—

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Which you did.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear the First Minister. I ask members who feel compelled to comment from their seats whether they are content that they are adhering to the requirements that they should be adhering to regarding their behaviour.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Government is being accused of rigging the process on one occasion, and now the Government is being accused of not rigging the process to make sure that the contracts for the vessels can go to Ferguson’s. That demonstrates that Russell Findlay is scraping the bottom of the barrel of political insults. He does it week after week in the Parliament, and it is a disgrace to the Conservative Party.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

I am sorry, John, but we do not want the SNP to fix contracts for Ferguson’s—

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Mr Findlay, I am sure that you know that we do not use only first names in the chamber.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Forgive me, Presiding Officer.

I am sorry, First Minister, but we do not want the SNP to fix contracts for Ferguson’s; we want the SNP to fix Ferguson’s so that it can win contracts fairly and squarely, because Scottish shipyards should be able to build ferries here, in Scotland.

After nationalisation, the SNP had a duty to get Ferguson’s back into a position to win contracts legitimately, and it has failed to do so. SNP politicians want all the credit when they are grabbing headlines and launching a ferry with painted-on windows, but they never accept responsibility for what has gone wrong. The First Minister’s fingerprints are all over the scandal from the very beginning. He signed off a dodgy deal that has let down islanders, taxpayers and shipyard workers, who face an uncertain future.

Scotland was once world leading in shipbuilding, and now we are losing CalMac ferry contracts to Poland. How can anyone trust John Swinney to repair the damage at Ferguson’s when he caused it in the first place?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

There would not be a Ferguson’s yard trading just now if I had not intervened more than 10 years ago to try to secure the future of the yard. I make no apology for doing that over all those years.

I want to tell the Parliament what Russell Findlay really thinks, because he has not been straight with the Parliament in all his questions today. This is what Russell Findlay said before. He called Ferguson Marine

“a terrible drain on the public finances.”

He called my Government’s support

“recklessly throwing taxpayers’ money away”—[Interruption.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Members!

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am not finished yet—I have lots more to share with the Parliament today. He said that

“the non-stop squandering of cash cannot go on.”

What we know today is that Russell Findlay has specialised in talking down the yard at Ferguson’s. We know that he has come here today just to demonstrate the political opportunism that we hear from him every week. Furthermore, we know why he is doing it: it is because the Conservative Party is being hammered by Reform, and Russell Findlay is on his way out, along with most of his colleagues. Thank goodness, and good riddance to the lot of them.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Scotland is a country renowned worldwide for its reputation for shipbuilding. For generations, we have been a leader in engineering, manufacturing and craftsmanship. Why, therefore, does John Swinney think that Scotland is not capable of building its own ferries?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I think that Scotland is able to take forward its shipbuilding activities, and we have many examples of that being the case. The Government has intervened using our economic development powers and interventions to support that over a number of years. If it had not been for the actions of this Government and the actions that I took as a minister in the past, there would be no constancy of work at Ferguson Marine, and I make no apology for putting it in that direction.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

With the Scottish National Party, it is contracts going abroad. This week, it is jobs for Poland; four years ago, it was jobs for Turkey. So much for “Stronger for Scotland”; instead, it is “The SNP—Stronger for Poland” and “The SNP—Stronger for Turkey”.

I want the ferries to be built here in Scotland.—[ Interruption .]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear Mr Sarwar.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

I want the investment and the jobs to be here in Scotland. We have world-leading shipbuilders at Port Glasgow, Govan and Rosyth. We have a publicly owned shipbuilding company, Ferguson’s, and we have BAE Systems and Babcock. I want Scotland’s shipbuilders to be able to bid on and win the contracts, but John Swinney believes that none of them are good enough to build Scotland’s ferries.

What is it about the way that the SNP runs Ferguson’s and the way that the SNP does procurement that means that Scotland’s ferries cannot be built in Scotland?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I do not believe that any of the guff that Mr Sarwar has suggested is my view. Absolutely not—

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

First Minister, let us ensure that our language is courteous and respectful.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Let me rephrase my point. I do not believe any of the nonsense that was purported by Mr Sarwar to be my view.

We have gone through a competitive tendering process, and Ferguson Marine was part of that competitive tendering process. It follows that I believe that that yard is perfectly able to build the ships, because it was part of the tendering process. It got through that tendering process and put in a bid that was credible and could be considered. Ministers cannot operate outside the law.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

That was a separate process!

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Mr Marra.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

We have got to follow the procurement law that is in place. We have got to follow the United Kingdom Subsidy Control Act 2022, which puts an obligation on all of us to make sure that ferry tenders are determined on the basis of an open procurement process.

I would love for the vessels to be built at Ferguson Marine—of course I would love that to be the case. That is why we are putting in £14.2 million over two years to support Ferguson Marine to develop its capability. I want that to be the case, but I have to make sure that we procure our ferry vessels in accordance with the legislation that is in place in the United Kingdom.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

John Swinney sends investment and jobs to Turkey and to Poland. People in Scotland will think that it is nonsense that he is not building ferries here in Scotland.

The consequence of SNP incompetence is stark. It is not just investment and jobs that are going abroad. At the heart of the matter are island communities that have been failed. Islanders are missing out on hospital appointments. They have missed weddings and loved ones’ funerals, and their livelihoods are being destroyed. The Fraser of Allander Institute estimates that disrupted ferry services cost the Isle of Arran alone up to £170,000 a day in lost revenue, which is devastating for an island.

In Uist, Stephen Peteranna, who is the managing director of a hotel group that employs 70 people on the island, said that his team has spent more than four decades building a sustainable business, only to watch CalMac and the Scottish Government shrink it over the past five years. What does John Swinney say to Stephen, his family and his staff, whose livelihoods are being put at risk by the SNP Government?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

What I would say to Mr Peteranna—whom I have met on many occasions and for whom I have great respect—is that the Scottish Government is investing in the ferry network. We have commissioned the Glen Sannox and the Glen Rosa from Ferguson’s. We have four large vessels coming from the Cemre yard in Turkey and seven small vessels have been procured by the Government.

When the Government came in to office in 2007, the 2006-07 expenditure on ferries in Scotland was £90 million. In the forthcoming budget, which Mr Sarwar did not support, the expenditure will be £530 million—a 23 per cent increase in funding levels on last year. [ Interruption .]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear one another.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

What I would say is that the Government is investing in the ferry network. We have procured six large vessels to join the network. We have got seven smaller vessels that will be joining the network over time. The Government is putting up the money to support that.

Mr Sarwar has talked about the Ferguson’s yard. I remind him of what the GMB said when it wrote to him in 2022. Mr Sarwar was told by the GMB that the Labour Party’s approach to the situation at Ferguson’s is so “disappointing”. That is what the GMB told Mr Sarwar. Why? It did so because Mr Sarwar and his colleagues, who are repeatedly shouting at me today, have done what the Tories have done for years—they have run down Ferguson’s while this Government has supported Ferguson’s, for which I make no apology today.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

To ask the First Minister when the Cabinet will next meet. (S6F-03919)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Cabinet will next meet on Monday, in Kirkintilloch, where we will have the opportunity to meet local businesses, service providers and community groups, as well as to hear directly from local community members.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

Since the launch of the Netflix drama “Adolescence”, everyone has been talking about the challenges that young people face—violence in schools, the rise of toxic misogynists such as Andrew Tate and online bullying. That is not just drama—it is happening here and now in Scotland, too.

Last summer, the Scottish Government published a new action plan that aimed to make pupils and staff feel safe and supported. However, new research published today by my party shows that more than 24,000 violent incidents have been reported in our schools in the months since the plan was revealed. Incident for incident, that level of reporting matches the trajectory of the record-breaking 40,000 reports of school violence that were recorded last year.

Pupils should not be going to school afraid. Teachers deserve to know that the Scottish Government has their back. Does the First Minister think that pupils and staff feel any safer or more supported? What further practical actions will his Government take to combat violence in our schools?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I agree with Mr Cole-Hamilton on the impact of the drama “Adolescence”, because it is leading to significant debate in our society—which I think is absolutely necessary—about the unacceptable behaviour of some supposed influencers, who are influencing very poor behaviour, among young men in particular, in our society today.

I read with care some reflections by Gareth Southgate in the Dimbleby lecture, which I thought were significant contributions to the debate. I again reinforce—as I have done on a number of occasions as First Minister—the importance of me exercising the leadership that I need to exercise to improve the culture and behaviour of men and boys in our society today.

In relation to the question of violence in our schools, Mr Cole-Hamilton correctly indicated that the Government has worked with our local authority partners to take forward the behaviour in schools action plan. That plan includes a range of actions that are designed to improve the situation, which I think that Mr Cole-Hamilton and I would probably accept has been influenced by the aftermath of Covid and the unacceptable examples of leadership that I have just highlighted.

I am always open to wider consideration of how we can support school staff and ensure that schools are safe places for young people to be educated in, because schools must be safe places for young people to be educated in. In some circumstances, school might well be the only safe place that a young person experiences.

I am therefore very open to dialogue with Mr Cole-Hamilton on how we can take further practical measures, beyond what the Government has already announced, to ensure that we support our schools in that important work.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

To ask the First Minister what assessment the Scottish Government has made of the recent “UK Living Standards Review 2025”, from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, and any implications for its work to grow Scotland’s economy. (S6F-03926)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The report rightly identifies economic problems that the United Kingdom continues to face. The UK is among the least generous on welfare across the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the UK’s regional income growth is among the slowest in Europe and its weak productivity growth is costing workers thousands per year.

Those are direct results of the welfare and economic choices of the current and previous United Kingdom Governments, which include the decision not to remove the two-child limit on universal credit. The report finds that removing that would be the most cost-effective way to reduce poverty.

Despite the hindrances that those UK Government decisions place on our ability to grow the Scottish economy and to eradicate child poverty, gross domestic product per person in Scotland has grown by 10.3 per cent since 2007, compared with 6 per cent growth in the United Kingdom as a whole.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I thank the First Minister for that response and simply add that the publication noted that the poorest households in Slovenia are now better off than the poorest in the UK.

Low productivity is costing workers in the UK £4,300 every year. Economic growth is the answer, so what further steps has the First Minister planned in that regard? When will plans be set out to offer Scots the opportunity to match the superior growth of other medium-sized countries that have proper fiscal powers in the form of independence?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Government is taking a number of steps to improve the performance of the Scottish economy, where, as I highlighted in my earlier answer to Michelle Thomson, GDP per capita has actually grown at a faster rate than in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Scottish Government interventions have helped to improve economic performance, and we are taking a positive approach towards investment. On Monday, a number of ministers took part in an enormously successful investment forum that was well supported by international investors in the Scottish economy, and we undertake constant dialogue with investors.

I recognise, support and endorse Michelle Thomson’s point that the already higher levels of economic growth per person that we have been able to deliver in Scotland under devolution would be enhanced if we had the wider range of fiscal powers that independent countries take for granted. I would want to deploy those powers to deliver growth and prosperity for the people of Scotland.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

Life expectancy is the starkest measure of living standards and, after 18 years of the Scottish National Party Government, Scots still die younger than people in the rest of the UK. Why, on John Swinney’s watch as Deputy First Minister and now as First Minister, has Scottish life expectancy dropped in five of the eight reporting periods since 2014?

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

First Minister, please answer only in relation to the substantive question.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I wonder whether, in the aftermath of the Conservatives’ ejection from office last summer, Craig Hoy has reflected at all on the damage that has been done to our society by 14 years of austerity under the Conservative Government.

Is there absolutely no space for reflection that Craig Hoy has been part of a Conservative Party that has undermined the public finances and delivered poor economic growth and which now comes here and lectures me about a Government that has increased GDP per capita faster in Scotland than it has grown in the rest of the United Kingdom? That demonstrates the fact that Craig Hoy is just playing about with politics.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

You cannot answer the question.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear the First Minister.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

He is playing about with politics, has no constructive solutions to bring forward for Scotland and is part of a party that has damaged the wellbeing of the people of Scotland by austerity.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government is marking endometriosis awareness month. (S6F-03924)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Endometriosis is a chronic and painful condition that can have an enormous impact on the health and wellbeing of women who are affected. That is why endometriosis is a priority in our women’s health plan.

March is endometriosis awareness month, and we are taking action to raise awareness of the condition and its symptoms and to help women to find information and support. Earlier this month, we lit Government buildings in yellow in recognition of endometriosis awareness month, and we have produced a social media toolkit to help others to raise awareness. We have also provided educational resources for those who work in primary care to improve understanding and to support earlier diagnosis, which I know is a critical issue for those who live with the condition.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

Although the SNP said that it would bring the waiting time for endometriosis diagnosis down to 12 months, it remains at eight and a half years. After diagnosis, women with endo face further hell when waiting for treatment for this crippling condition. For example, 24-year-old Chloe Bremner was told that she faced a two-year wait for surgery on the national health service in Scotland. The pain was so unbearable that Chloe had to go to Abu Dhabi for treatment.

The women’s health plan is not cutting it. It was meant to reduce health inequalities for women and girls, and not to exacerbate them. What decisive action will the First Minister take to stop women such as Chloe paying a fortune for treatment because they cannot get proper care in Scotland?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

First, the Government is working with a range of stakeholders to take forward the women’s health plan. Secondly, the Government is putting in the investment to reduce waiting times to make sure that women such as Chloe do not have to wait as long as they are having to wait, and we are making progress in reducing waiting times across a number of sectors. Thirdly, we are putting in place more than £21 billion of investment in the national health service to make sure that it can meet the needs of the public in Scotland. That is all part of the budget that the Government has put forward, and I am glad to say that Parliament has supported it.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

Although endometriosis is the second most common gynaecological condition in the United Kingdom, the level of data collection on it by health boards is extremely limited. Does the Government recognise that capturing more data on general practitioner referrals for endometriosis and waiting times for consultation would create greater transparency about how long it is taking to diagnose and treat endometriosis?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I recognise that those are important steps that could be taken to assist the situation. The emphasis on improving the information that is available to us about individual conditions is part of the approach that is envisaged in the women’s health plan for Scotland. I am happy to take away the point that Carol Mochan puts to me to determine the steps that can be taken to improve the flow of data that will assist in the planning of such treatment.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to tackle Islamophobia in Scotland, in light of reports of an attack on a mosque in Aberdeen at the weekend. (S6F-03920)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I unequivocally condemn the recent attack on the Aberdeen Mosque and Islamic Centre. I recognise the traumatic impact that such incidents have on individuals, families and communities. That is why we are taking robust and meaningful action to challenge such prejudice. We are tackling hatred and Islamophobia through delivery of our hate crime strategy.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

That incident of vandalism has shocked Aberdeen’s Muslim community and the city at large. The police have responded positively and people in Old Aberdeen have rallied round to help the mosque congregation with the clean-up.

Does the First Minister agree with my view that it is incumbent on Governments, all leaders and all politicians in the Parliament and elsewhere to unite to tackle Islamophobia, intolerance and extremist views?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I agree with those sentiments, and it is for that reason that I have indicated that I will convene a gathering of political and civic leaders to establish constructive interventions that we can all agree on to create a cohesive society in which everyone feels safe and at home.

The example that Mr Stewart has given to Parliament—the steps that the community in Old Aberdeen has taken to demonstrate exactly that type of solidarity and support to the Muslim community in the city of Aberdeen—is a splendid example of the type of spirit that we need to have in this country, where we are defined by what unites us and not by what divides us.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

I raised Islamophobia with the First Minister just two weeks ago. The abhorrent attack on Aberdeen Mosque and Islamic Centre demonstrates that Scotland is not immune to hatred, so I welcome the First Minister’s condemning it today. Will he outline what action is being taken to protect mosques during Ramadan? Does he agree that education is key to combating Islamophobia and hatred of all forms?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I agree with the points that Mr Choudhury has put to me. I reassure him and the Muslim community in Scotland that I have been constantly encouraged by the approach that Police Scotland has taken. It has always sought dialogue with the Muslim community and has, at times of anxiety, accentuated its engagement. I know that, during Ramadan and at other times of the year, Police Scotland is actively engaged with the community to ensure that it feels safe. That is what I want the community to feel, and I know that that is the view of the Parliament and Police Scotland.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

We move to constituency and general supplementary questions.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

Under the United Kingdom Labour Government, most pensioners have lost their winter fuel allowance, women against state pension inequality have been cast aside and now we have had an attack on benefits. What impact will changes in the UK personal independence payment have on pensioners who are making new applications under the Scottish Government’s pension age disability payment, which is the replacement for the UK attendance allowance?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I understand the anxiety that Christine Grahame has expressed. We have all been enormously troubled and concerned by the United Kingdom Government’s announcements, which will significantly undermine access to the disability benefits that will be available to individuals. We have to observe with care the process that the United Kingdom Government is going through, because it will determine the principal impact on the finances that we have available to support the benefits and social security arrangements that are under our control.

I cannot give a definitive answer to Christine Grahame, but I can say that, under the legislation that the Government has put to the UK Parliament, the decisions that we take on social security must ensure that we operate a system that has dignity and respect at its heart. The UK Government’s decisions do not have at their heart dignity and respect, but austerity. We were told that the election of a Labour Government would end austerity, but this week disabled people and others who are vulnerable in our society have learned the hard way that Labour is carrying on the austerity of the Tories.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

Last year, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service dealt with 133 serious wildfire incidents between March and June, including 10 in my constituency. Despite a small increase in the latest budget, Scotland’s national fire service has been cut to the bone, with cuts to firefighter numbers and fire engines, and stations being brought to their knees, according to the Fire Brigades Union.

In the light of the impact of climate change in rural areas, does the First Minister agree that additional resources need to be made available? What action is he taking regarding the “extreme” risk of wildfire warning that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has issued for low-lying areas in Scotland, including south-west Scotland, for this weekend?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I acknowledge the concern that exists about the warning that has been put in place. That warning has been put in place in March when, I think, none of us would ordinarily expect a wildfire warning in Scotland. That is an indication of the serious effects of climate change that we are now experiencing in our society, which must be addressed.

The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service will work with Forestry and Land Scotland, non-governmental organisations, landowners and communities to respond effectively to any incidents, and it is monitoring examples.

The service does an exceptional job in Scotland and is being supported by a budget increase of £29.3 million, which is a measure of the Government’s commitment. Indeed, the budget is now £79 million higher than it was in 2017-18.

I am all for having considered discussions in the Parliament about the public finances, but I have to put it to Mr Carson that he has a bit of a brass neck coming here—

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

This is about wildfires.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Yes—this is about wildfires, but there would be no money to tackle them if the Parliament had not passed the budget—a budget that the Conservatives voted against—[ Interruption .]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Members!

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I will not tire of pointing out to the Conservatives their total and utter inadequacy in the Parliament, because they come here asking us to spend more money when they would not put budget provision in place. The Tories are a disgrace.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Many people have been shocked and saddened by BBC Scotland’s decision to cancel “River City”, with nearly 10,000 people having signed a petition by the trade union Equity to save the show. The decision has implications for jobs, opportunities and viewers. There are serious concerns that plans to replace the show will collectively offer 20 hours less broadcast television time a year to Scottish licence fee payers than the current 33 hours of “River City”.

Does the First Minister share my concerns about that decision, and the concerns of Jackie Baillie and I about the potential loss of the Dumbarton studios, which are also used for many other productions?

Ahead of the 2027 charter renewal, will the Scottish Government seek guarantees that BBC Scotland’s budget will be invested in local TV and film production?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Those are, of course, decisions for BBC Scotland, but I recognise the disappointment about the decision not to continue the “River City” series.

The point that underlies Mr Bibby’s comments is the importance of production of television material within Scotland. The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture has been discussing that issue with the BBC, and he will discuss the implications of the “River City” decision with Equity.

I want to be clear to the Parliament that the Government attaches the greatest importance to ensuring that production activity is undertaken genuinely within Scotland, so that the economic benefit of it is felt within Scotland. That is what the BBC charter would oblige of the BBC. The Government will be engaging very strongly to ensure that that is the case.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

The success of Scotland’s offshore wind industry is, rightly, a priority of the Scottish Government, as it delivers on our climate obligations and unlocks new jobs and significant economic opportunities. Following this week’s global offshore wind investment forum, will the First Minister provide an update on the steps that the Scottish National Party Government is taking to attract investment and support in Scotland’s offshore wind industry?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Government is taking a number of steps to support the development of the offshore wind industry. Significant investments have already landed in Scotland, with the commitments at Ardersier and the investments by Sumitomo at Nigg. We are also supporting further developments at Scapa Flow and Montrose. There is a great deal of investment happening.

I reassure Jackie Dunbar that the level of investment interest in Scotland, as demonstrated at the global offshore wind investment forum on Monday, is very encouraging. The Government is taking steps to ensure that we align the investment opportunities with sites in Scotland, supported by our enterprise development agencies and the Scottish National Investment Bank. A number of steps are coming together that will enable us to reap the rewards of the significant natural opportunities that we have.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

Research by Young Lives vs Cancer shows that children with cancer wait an average of six months for disability benefits in Scotland, leaving struggling families without support. Will the First Minister remove the three-month qualifying period for children with clear medical evidence, ensuring that financial aid starts at diagnosis, so that no child in Scotland faces additional hardship at an already overwhelming time for them and their family?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I will certainly explore that question. It is important that people in our society who require support are able to receive it at the earliest possible opportunity. We are seeing a reduction in Social Security Scotland’s processing times across the range of social security services that are available. I will consider the point that Mr Balfour has put to me.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I am sure that the First Minister will be as excited as I am to see the Tour de France come to Scotland in 2027. It will be the first time in the event’s 124-year history that it has visited our cycling nation. What lessons were learned on the back of the UCI cycling world championships in 2023? It is important that the Tour should leave a lasting legacy, particularly for disadvantaged communities, once the peloton has moved on from Scotland.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I echo Mark Ruskell’s welcoming of the race organisers’ announcement at Edinburgh castle last night. I was delighted to be there to welcome the interest and commitment of those organising the Tour de France, and of the women’s race into the bargain. It will be the first time in the event’s history that the women’s race will have started outside France. That presents an enormous opportunity for Scotland and demonstrates our success and effectiveness in attracting major international events. I am delighted that we have been able to secure that for 2027.

The principal lesson that I have learned from the UCI world championships is that we must put in place infrastructure and facilities that enable local people to take part in cycling activity. The Government’s investment in active travel assists in that respect. We can see the effect of many of those changes around our communities, where such infrastructure is now being put in place.

Gordon MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Pentlands)

Ahead of the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s spring statement, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has downgraded its United Kingdom growth forecast for 2025 to 1.4 per cent. Despite all the economic levers that it has at its disposal, the UK Labour Government is failing to grow the economy in order to hit its 2.5 per cent growth target. That is before the impact of the employer national insurance hike. The UK Government might have changed last year but, under Labour, we are seeing more of the same economic failure, with stagnant growth and continuing austerity. What impact will the downgraded forecast have on the First Minister’s Government’s priority of growing Scotland’s economy?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The issues that Mr MacDonald raises are serious. The effect of the increase in employer national insurance contributions will be a negative impact on growth. Indeed, there is now speculation that the material to be announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the spring statement will reduce the growth forecast that is expected for the United Kingdom, which will inevitably have the effect of reducing the tax revenues that are likely to be available for the chancellor to utilise.

The implication of that is that there is likely to be further pressure on the Scottish Government’s budget in the years to come. What we can expect is what we have seen from the Labour Government in the course of this week: the perpetuation of the austerity agenda that it inherited from the Conservatives, which it promised that it would bring to an end, but which it has revitalised as part of the Labour Government. I do not think that anyone would have imagined that a Labour Government would come into office and inflict more austerity on the people of Scotland.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

This week, evening bus services through Tillicoultry’s main bus stance have been suspended from 7 pm due to incidents of antisocial behaviour. McGill’s and Midland Bluebird have taken that action due to a rise in violent incidents that have occurred this month. Such services are a lifeline for night-time workers, among others, and such behaviour is completely unacceptable. What urgent action can be taken to ensure the safety of bus drivers, passengers and the general public so that they are protected from needless violence?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I recognise the importance of all our public transport services being operated safely, and that applies to passengers and members of staff. Such incidents are indeed totally unacceptable. Police Scotland will take active steps to ensure that the community is kept safe and that there is every opportunity for bus services, and public transport services in general, to operate in the way that members of the public reasonably expect them to.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

The First Minister will be very much aware of my disappointment that Ferguson Marine did not win the order that was announced on Monday, but I welcome the fact that there is a new chief executive at the yard. Will the First Minister guarantee and ensure that the Scottish Government will have a thorough and robust discussion and debrief with the management and the board of Ferguson Marine so that the yard can become competitive and can win future orders from the public sector and on the commercial market?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am very pleased to welcome the appointment of Graeme Thomson as the new chief executive of Ferguson Marine. He will take up that post on 1 May.

The Government is taking all the steps that Mr McMillan has put to me about making sure that we strengthen the yard. The yard has been part of a competitive tendering process and, within that, it has put forward a credible bid that indicates the strength of the yard. The Government is supporting that with a further £14.2 million of investment to strengthen the yard, and is also working with the yard to ensure that it is able to command further work to support its future. That will remain the Government’s priority in the forthcoming period.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will be a suspension to allow people to leave the chamber and the public gallery.

Criminal Exploitation of Children

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-16434, in the name of Michael Matheson, on awareness of criminal exploitation of children. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I invite members who wish to participate in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament welcomes the recent reports of Professor Alexis Jay and Action for Children, and the charity’s service provision, which highlight the issue of criminal exploitation of children; considers that the testimony from exploited young people, Action for Children staff who support these young people, and other professionals connected with this work have described the harrowing and shocking experiences that children have encountered; understands that this issue hides in plain sight and that criminal exploitation of children can take place anywhere across Scotland, including in the Falkirk West constituency, and can happen to anyone; believes that these reports offer an opportunity to raise awareness of this important topic with members of the public, parliamentarians and decision makers, while also creating the chance to explore solutions to tackling this form of child abuse, and notes the belief that, in doing so, society can help to meet the aims and vision of The Promise, ensuring that Scotland does become the best place in the world for children and young people to grow up, where they feel loved, safe, respected and able to realise their full potential.

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

I am grateful to colleagues from across the chamber for supporting the motion and for being in the chamber to explore and raise awareness of the criminal exploitation of children.

There is perhaps no greater concern than children being subject to harm. One does not need to be a parent to understand that our children are vulnerable and innocent. The fact that anyone should seek to harm and abuse children is chilling and abhorrent in equal measure. Unfortunately, that harm exists in our society today. The debate allows us to focus on the criminal exploitation of children and the fact that it is a form of child abuse.

The debate coincides with two important milestones that are taking place this week. The first was on Tuesday, which was national child exploitation awareness day, which aims to raise awareness of child exploitation and to encourage people to speak out against it. Tomorrow is the first anniversary of the Jay review report. The report was commissioned by Action for Children and work on it was led by Professor Alexis Jay. I place on record my thanks to her for her pivotal role in protecting children.

Colleagues will also be interested to note that Professor Jay has kindly agreed to present to members on 14 May. That will be a good opportunity to hear at first hand about some of the issues that will be raised in the debate. I will alert members to that event over the coming days.

I also offer my appreciation to Action for Children’s chief executive, Paul Carberry. In my time as the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and as an MSP, I have known Paul for his outstanding work with Action for Children. He has a burning desire to help and support children and young people who have experience of our criminal justice system. He also ensured that Action for Children commissioned the very substantial report that was produced by the Jay review.

Paul Carberry often cites the fact that the children who need to be lifted out of trouble and adversity the most are often the children who are least likely to receive effective help and support. That is an important point that we should bear in mind throughout the debate. I also express my gratitude to Action for Children and other organisations for providing briefings ahead of the debate.

The Jay review found that many children are being devastated due to system-wide failure and that serious and preventable harm is being caused to children and young people across Scotland and the United Kingdom because of criminal exploitation. The review was able to draw on powerful evidence from young people, and parents, who have lived through exploitation. They outlined the drug abuse, horrific violence, threats and psychological trauma experienced. The report captured the fear and desperation of parents who did not know where to turn—some watched the grooming process happen and others did not know that it was happening until it was too late.

Criminal exploitation can affect anyone—there are examples of children from well-off backgrounds with strong, loving families being exploited. Other children are inherently more vulnerable, including those with additional support needs and disability, those impacted by poverty and those who have experienced our care system. Worryingly, black and minority ethnic children are overrepresented throughout the statistics relating to criminal exploitation.

One of the main issues is the duality of the predicament for exploited children. They are both victims who are involved in crime and actors who are perpetrating crime. When I was the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, part of that issue was addressed through the passing of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015, which aims to protect victims of trafficking.

The criminal exploitation of children and how it is tackled can be broadly summed up by reference to three areas. The first is identification. There is currently no agreed definition of criminal exploitation and, without a definition, the language used by agencies on what the criminal exploitation of children looks like is not consistent.

I hope that, when she responds to the debate, the minister will outline the Scottish Government’s plans to address that. Those plans should take cognisance of the important measures that the UK Government recently announced in its Crime and Policing Bill. Could the bill’s proposed provisions on the criminal exploitation of children be extended to cover Scotland?

The second area is the need to quantify the extent of the criminal exploitation of children. A lack of consistent recording means that we cannot describe the scale of the issue or identify achievable outcomes. For example, our main data source is the national referral mechanism, which is not specifically intended to protect children who have been exploited.

Better national awareness would help to promote greater understanding. It would also be worth while for professionals who work with children to have training that informs them about the potential risks of criminal exploitation and helps them to identify it.

The final area is about how we as a society respond to the criminal exploitation of children. Consistency is needed across all organisations. Information sharing, risk management and safeguarding practices are all needed to address the issue. Services should be adequately resourced to allow early intervention when identification takes place. Although a holistic approach across the UK is appropriate, Scotland can also lead the way by driving forward awareness of the need to ensure adequate protection for children to prevent them from being exploited.

The criminal exploitation of children is a lucrative business for some of the most sadistic people in our society. We have a responsibility, as a decent and caring society, to stop that form of child abuse. We need to protect our children and to crack down on those who are their exploiters. We need to do that collectively—together. I hope that the Scottish Government will work with Action for Children to look at how we can effectively tackle the problem of the criminal exploitation of children in Scotland and across the rest of the UK.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

We move to the open debate.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank Michael Matheson for bringing this extremely important issue to the chamber. His contribution was excellent. It is important that we recognise the need to define, to collect data and to work across bodies to make a change.

We are very aware of the issues surrounding children and young people who suffer from poverty and deprivation in our society, but, as Michael Matheson mentioned, criminal exploitation also involves children from more well-off backgrounds.

As a Parliament, we regularly debate the impacts of systemic failure and poverty on the lives of and outcomes for children, and we reaffirm our drive and determination to ensure that the Promise is met by 2030. It is important that we meet the Promise’s milestone targets, as the Promise being kept will stem from the essential work that is being done to change those societal issues. However, in our debates on the Promise, we seldom focus on the people who would utilise the gaps in the system for their own nefarious desires. I do not believe that anyone in Parliament would dissent from the statement that the criminal exploitation of children is abhorrent and that all steps to eradicate it from Scotland should be explored and enacted.

I also thank Action for Children for its briefing for the debate and for highlighting its national polling data. It is horrific to think that 130,000 parents in the UK are saying that their child has experienced three or more of the signs of criminal exploitation in the past year alone. That is even more staggering when we realise that it is just the tip of the iceberg.

Because of the complexities of this type of exploitation, the figures that we have are underestimates. Often children either do not recognise that they are being manipulated, because they consider their abuser to be their friend, or are so afraid that harm could be inflicted on themselves or a loved one that they simply do not admit to the situation in which they find themselves.

The manipulation and coercion of children for criminal ends is not new. There is a long-established process of persuading and encouraging the most vulnerable in our society to take up criminal exploits. We only have to look at novels by Charles Dickens—“Oliver Twist” comes to mind—to see how little we have progressed in this area in nearly 200 years. If we do not step up and protect the children who are falling through the cracks in our system, we face discussing the issue again in years to come.

We do not need to wait for another 100 years—we need action. As Action for Children suggested, the Promise bill that is to be introduced could take massive legislative strides in closing the gaps in the system for Scotland’s children. Unfortunately, we are no further forward with what the bill will entail, the scope of its legislative changes and the outcomes that are expected from it. I appreciate the time that the minister has afforded me on the topic, and I respect the fact that it will be a complex bill that has to cover many issues. However, we were advised that the bill would be introduced at the start of 2025 and we are now heading towards the Easter recess, so I am concerned that delays will find us rapidly running out of time to scrutinise the bill—or, worse, that we will run out of time for it to be passed before the end of the parliamentary session.

I will do what I can to raise awareness of the topic. It is important that parents, carers and loved ones look out for tell-tale signs, which include sudden changes in friendship groups, especially if the friendship is with somebody who is older than the child or young person; changes in behaviour, physical appearance and language, such as the use of code words for drugs or sex; and unexplained gifts, money or, worse, injuries. Those are all signs of criminal manipulation, and I urge anyone with concerns about their children or any of the children they know to reach out, especially to groups such as Action for Children, to get the support that they need.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

I, too, thank Michael Matheson for bringing this important debate on the criminal exploitation of children to the chamber.

Let us be clear: this is not some distant tragedy. It is already happening. In our towns, on our streets and even behind the closed doors in our communities, there are children, vulnerable, scared and alone, who are being coerced, manipulated and threatened into a life of crime by ruthless criminals who see them, not as young lives full of potential, but as disposable tools to be used.

I thank Action for Children for its helpful briefing. The recent reports from Professor Alexis Jay and Action for Children lay bare the sheer scale of the appalling abuse that is taking place. The voices of those young people—haunted, fearful and yet so often ignored—tell us everything that we need to know. Those children are victims, but I am afraid that, instead of receiving protection, they are too often treated as criminals, slipping through the cracks of the very system that is meant to safeguard them.

Let us be clear: the criminal exploitation of children is child abuse. However, as we have heard, the lack of a clear definition often creates a vacuum. Without a legal framework, agencies struggle to identify victims early, and perpetrators slip through the net. It is clear that we need a legal definition of the criminal exploitation of children—and we need it now—to ensure that we can protect and safeguard some of the most vulnerable members of our society.

As we know, it is estimated that more than 130,000 parents across the UK suspected that their child had been exploited, but the true figure is very likely to be higher. We are unsure of the true extent of the issue, and, if we do not know its scale, how can we hope to tackle it effectively? We must remember that these children are not making choices—they are being targeted. Exploiters seek out vulnerability—the children who are in poverty, the children in care and the children with additional needs. They offer false promises of money, security and belonging, then the trap is sprung. Debts, threats and violence become the new reality, a nightmare that they cannot wake from.

We have heard of children being forced to carry drugs and weapons, steal, beg and even commit acts of violence under duress. We have heard of children too afraid to step outside their homes and children wearing extra layers in case they are stabbed. Imagine living like that—but it is the brutal reality of criminal exploitation. There are children such as David, who was arrested for drug possession and labelled as a repeat offender, instead of being recognised as a victim. His family threatened his escape—it was impossible. However, thanks to the intervention of Action for Children, David found a way out, and he is now in college, working towards a future that he can finally call his own. His story is one of survival, but how many more like him are still trapped?

First, we urgently need a legal definition of the criminal exploitation of children. Secondly, we must strengthen joint investigations between law enforcement and social services, because this is not just a policing issue—it is a child protection emergency. Thirdly, we need welfare first approaches, because these children are not criminals. They are victims, and we must treat them as such.

Scotland has made a promise to be the best place in the world for children to grow up in. Today, the Parliament has the power to act—the power to uphold that promise—and I urge every MSP in the chamber to stand together, stand up for these children and let us be the Parliament that ends the criminal exploitation of children in Scotland.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I congratulate Michael Matheson on securing this important debate, because no issue is more serious than the safety of children; their wellbeing and life chances must be paramount when we make decisions in the chamber that affect their lives. I also thank Professor Jay and Action for Children staff for all the research and hard work that they have done to bring to light the facts surrounding the criminal exploitation of children. Their work is hugely important.

We should be under no illusions: as Michael Matheson has said, the criminal exploitation of children is a form of child abuse. For adults to force children to commit crimes and take advantage of an imbalance of power to coerce, control, manipulate or deceive a child into criminal activity is abhorrent. Violence, concealing contraband such as drugs and weapons, giving false alibis, committing theft, begging in the streets or vandalising properties are just snapshots of some of the criminal acts that children in Scotland are being forced to undertake. We must do all that we can to protect them from that.

The charity Action for Children has told us that nowhere in the UK, including in Scotland, do we have a legal definition of what the criminal exploitation of children consists of—that point was made by Bill Kidd. The charity has told us that that matters, because of the lack of a shared understanding of criminal exploitation of children. That prevents co-ordinated, joined-up responses to such exploitation, particularly with regard to what happens in the early stages, when children are groomed for child criminal exploitation. The Scottish Government must bring forward a legal definition to ensure that people who are committing those acts of abuse are brought to justice. I noted what Michael Matheson said about the potential of extending aspects of legislation from down south.

We know that Scotland is failing when it comes to keeping the Promise to some of the most vulnerable children in our care. I know the commitments that the Scottish Government has made, but we are not close to keeping the Promise commitment by the deadline of 2030. That will lead to the criminal exploitation of many more children, who might be in care and who will have much poorer life chances and health outcomes, and it will cause many of those children significant trauma that might have lifelong consequences for them and, indeed, their families and future generations.

The Scottish Government must do more to protect children from criminal gangs or individuals who use children to commit criminal acts. We know that the exploitation of children in Scotland is increasing, and we must do more to ensure that no child is abused in that way in the future.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

I am pleased to speak in this important debate, and I thank my colleague Michael Matheson for bringing it to the chamber.

We all agree that only the lowest of the low exploit children, but, sadly, it is happening across Scotland, as the excellent but shocking report from Professor Alexis Jay and Action for Children reveals. Criminal exploitation of children is a complex, insidious form of child abuse that involves manipulation and coercion to make children participate in criminal activities and creates lifelong trauma for victims. As a result of its UK-wide polling last year, Action for Children has said that

“over 130,000 parents say their child has experienced three or more signs of criminal exploitation in the last 12 months”.

That could be the tip of the iceberg, given the lack of data.

I have been a member of the Criminal Justice Committee since my election in 2016, and my overriding interest has been the welfare of children and young people. Despite that, I have to admit that the facts contained in the report shocked me. How can this be happening in our beautiful country? After all, this is the country that introduced the vision of the Promise to ensure that Scotland is the

“best place in the world”

for children and young people to grow up in and where they feel loved, safe, respected and able to realise their full potential.

I thank Action for Children for its helpful briefing. I have to say that it is not an easy read; it highlights how criminal exploitation can include the retrieval of illicit drugs and money, the possession of weapons, the use of violence and firearms, the harbouring of offenders and the provision of false alibis for others. Cannabis growing, theft and burglary, and street crime such as begging and pickpocketing, are common, too. As a member of the children’s hearings system before being elected, I recall the case of a four-year-old boy who slept in the middle of a cannabis factory. It was just one of the many terrifying things that I heard at that time.

What can we do to eradicate this? Action for Children is concerned that nowhere in the UK, including here in Scotland, do we have a legal definition of the criminal exploitation of children. It believes that that obstructs co-ordinated, joined-up prevention work with children who are being groomed for that purpose. As we have heard, it also believes that the upcoming and very welcome Promise bill could be a parliamentary vehicle to drive through urgent changes to keep Scotland’s children safe.

We must stop children from falling through the cracks and getting drawn into a world of darkness. It is the responsibility of us all to recognise the signs and care for those who are lost. However, we know that it can be challenging for agencies to detect and respond appropriately to the criminal exploitation of children, for a range of reasons. Indeed, the system currently struggles to balance the dual roles of exploited children as both victims and perpetrators. However, we must make no mistake: we must go after the exploiters to protect children.

Any child is at risk of exploitation, regardless of age or background, and exploiters will look for vulnerabilities. Once bribed, a child’s loyalty will be tested, and they will, of course, be scared or reluctant to talk about their exploiters. Certain groups of children are inherently more vulnerable, whether they have additional support needs and disability, are growing up in poverty or are in the care system, and there is also overrepresentation of black and minority ethnic children.

Serious organised crime can play a significant role in this insidious practice, with children groomed over time and threatened or targeted in a way that makes them feel that they cannot escape. As Roz McCall has outlined, we need to be aware of sudden changes in children. I will not go through those changes, as Roz McCall has already articulated them.

Let us all be aware of what is happening to a significant number of children in our country, let us prevent exploitation and let us protect our young people. It is our duty and responsibility to do so.

Ash Denham (Alba, Edinburgh Eastern)

I, too, congratulate Michael Matheson on bringing this critical issue to the chamber. I hope that the Government will allocate time for a fuller debate on the topic in the future.

Today’s debate should be not a formality but a crucial step in eradicating the criminal exploitation of children and in using our role for their protection. The decisions that are made in the chamber are key to creating an environment where the children of Scotland are free from abuse and protected from exploitation. We cannot explore solutions to tackling any form of child abuse without first acknowledging the elephant in the room, which is the systematic erosion of child safeguarding that has left children vulnerable to exploitation.

As other speakers have said, we must listen to Professor Jay, who has spent many years working to understand the consequences of child exploitation. The recommendations from her reports over several reviews must now be implemented with a sense of urgency.

We all have a role in preventing exploitation by ensuring that children are not just rescued from harm but equipped with the skills and support to prevent exploitation from taking place in the first place. Our job as decision makers cannot be to pour support for exploited children into a bucket when the bucket continues to have its safeguarding base completely eroded, because that is self-defeating.

I will take a minute to explore the mixed messages that we are sending to children and broader society regarding safeguarding, such as the language that is used around children’s sexual activity.

The law states that sex with a minor is statutory rape, but how many times do we see headlines discussing the lifestyle choices of abused children? In schools, we ask children under the age of consent about their sexual activity, thereby normalising what is against the sexual offences law that is there to protect children. Furthermore, we publicly fund lobby groups such as LGBT Youth Scotland, which has a remit to provide services to an extensive age range, from 13-year-old children to adults aged 25. However, responses to freedom of information requests have shown that it is working beyond its remit by accessing primary school children and even influencing materials in nursery schools. I ask the Government to respond to that point, if possible, during the minister’s summing-up speech.

Dr Cass was clear that affirmation is not a neutral act. However, what has changed to make materials Cass compliant throughout our education system, reflecting the accepted recommendations in Dr Cass’s report? What are the learning objectives and measured outcomes of teaching sex and gender identity to nursery children, many of whom are not even toilet trained? Children look to adults and older peers to make sense of their world. Nurseries and schools are a child’s first communities, independent of their parents and care givers. Those places have positional authority and have a key role in ensuring that safeguarding is embedded and understood.

If we are seeking to protect children from criminal exploitation, we must continue that important focus on child safeguarding and put it before any other adult-driven agenda.

The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes)

I thank Michael Matheson for highlighting the important work that has been undertaken by Action for Children, Alexis Jay and others on child criminal exploitation. Today’s debate provides a timely focus on that deeply concerning issue. As we have heard, local areas face significant challenges in addressing the risk and impact of child criminal exploitation, which often involves vulnerable children and families. Mr Matheson laid out clearly the risks to all children, and I agree with many of the sentiments in today’s debate. Child criminal exploitation is abhorrent.

We have engaged closely with Action for Children and other stakeholders including Police Scotland, the Crown Office, the Children and Young People’s Centre for Justice and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on the review’s recommendations to strengthen our approach to prevent and tackle this form of abuse.

It is important to recognise that a number of the review’s recommendations have already been implemented in Scotland and, indeed, were informed by our approach. That includes the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which underpins a rights-based approach to protecting children; delivery of a statutory independent child trafficking guardians service; and the operation of the Lord Advocate’s instructions for non-prosecution of victims of human trafficking. We want Scotland to lead the way in tackling all forms of child abuse and exploitation, so that we can live up to our ambitions and our shared vision for Scotland, and so that we can keep the Promise.

Evidence shows that the most effective way to prevent exploitation is through a focus on education, awareness raising and practitioner training. Last year, I had the privilege of attending the launch of the “You Are Not Alone” resource for schools, which focuses on the risks and harms of child exploitation. Co-developed by young people, I Am Me Scotland and Police Scotland, the resource offers a wealth of information to empower young people to recognise harm and know where to turn for support when they need it most.

Michael Matheson pointed to the importance of training. In line with the review recommendations, we are taking steps to educate and empower our front-line practitioners through the provision of the resources and training that they need to recognise the signs of child criminal exploitation and to respond appropriately.

In 2023, on behalf of the serious organised crime task force, we published guidance for practitioners on criminal exploitation. Many members have referred to the need for a definition. The guidance, which supports a shared definition of criminal exploitation and promotes early identification of those who are at risk, was incorporated into the updated national guidance for child protection in 2023. The definition is similar to the one that was proposed in the Jay review, and both Police Scotland and the Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration have stated that they are in the process of adopting the definition to inform internal guidance. In June 2024, a criminal exploitation awareness-raising event took place to raise awareness of the guidance among practitioners and leaders across various sectors and to promote multi-agency working between organisations.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

I thank Michael Matheson for bringing the debate to the chamber. It is a really important topic and has been looked at by the Criminal Justice Committee, of which I am a member. On the point about awareness, I highlight the issue of county lines, whereby young people—often, children—are recruited by gangs to participate in illegal drug-related activities. That issue is perhaps flying slightly under the radar in Scotland.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Minister, I can give you the time back.

Natalie Don-Innes

I thank Audrey Nicoll for making that point and assure her that it is being considered in our overall response to the issue.

Education Scotland has developed a professional learning package for local authorities’ strategic safeguarding leads, based on the practitioner guidance. That resource supports consistent and evidence-based messaging to teachers and all who work in education settings.

In addition, dedicated Scottish Government funding to keep the Promise is being provided to Action for Children and the Children and Young People’s Centre for Justice in order to develop an improvement framework for all practitioners to enhance the identification of and response to criminal exploitation. The framework is due to be published later this year.

To further improve the collective response to child abuse, including child criminal exploitation, we will roll out national multi-agency risk assessment training for social workers, police and health professionals over the next year.

We have also provided more than £450,000 of funding across 2023 to 2026 to support the anchor Highlands project, an Inverness-based alliance between Barnardo’s, Action for Children and Aberlour that supports young people who are at risk of exploitation through a focus on contextual safeguarding.

The Jay review compels us to re-evaluate our approach to what is a complex issue and to acknowledge that children who are caught in exploitation are manipulated and grouped by perpetrators. I am pleased that the Lord Advocate’s instructions for non-prosecution of victims of human trafficking have been recognised. Those instructions, which were updated last year, advise against the criminalisation of child exploitation victims. That approach sits alongside wider reform of the youth justice system in Scotland, which is clear on the need to ensure that children who are exploited are viewed through a child protection lens rather than a justice one.

Ash Denham (Alba, Edinburgh Eastern)

[Made a request to intervene.]

Natalie Don-Innes

I would like to make progress.

We also recognise the importance of support for victims. Backed by £10 million of Scottish Government funding across 2023 to 2025, the bairns’ hoose programme is already improving the experiences of the child protection and justice system for young people, including those who have experienced child criminal exploitation.

We are actively working to improve data. The latest annual child protection statistics, which are due to be published on 25 March, will provide further information on how child criminal exploitation has been reported by children’s services across Scotland.

I turn to the criminality of the individuals who perpetrate child criminal exploitation. The partners on the serious organised crime task force continue to use every means at their disposal to disrupt serious organised crime, including child criminal exploitation, and to raise awareness of the serious harms that it causes. We are reviewing the use of existing legislation to better prosecute child sexual exploitation offenders. In response to many members’ points, I note that we are working with the UK Government on its Crime and Policing Bill, which includes provisions to enhance police powers to disrupt child criminal exploitation and child sexual abuse and exploitation. Scottish ministers aim to take those measures forward through the legislative consent process.

The Jay review also highlights the fact that children who do not have an immigration status are vulnerable to exploitation. For them, Scotland’s statutory independent child trafficking guardians service is vital, as was recognised by the Jay review.

I have much more to say, but I appreciate that time is short, so I will conclude. I look forward to working with members, Action for Children and other partners to prevent and tackle child criminal exploitation in order to make Scotland the best place in the world to grow up and a place in which children are safe and respected.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

That concludes the debate.

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Question Time

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, further to the answer to question S6W-34464, what its position is on whether MSPs should be able to participate in the armed forces parliamentary scheme, in addition to the armed forces visits programme, should they wish to do so, in light of it being a structured 15-day course with one of the armed services, and it also offering the opportunity to enrol on a Royal College of Defence Studies postgraduate degree level course in strategic leadership and international strategic studies, and it therefore being different in nature. (S6O-04476)

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

I thank Paul Sweeney for his sustained interest in these matters. As a member, he is aware that the Scottish Parliament’s armed forces parliamentary visits programme was established relatively recently, in 2017. Since then, many members, including me, have participated in outward visits to defence bases across Scotland as well as reciprocal visits to the Parliament. I say that as an enthusiastic former member of the Combined Cadet Force.

The current programme is a good fit for the Scottish Parliament and its members, and, although there are no plans to review it at the current time, Mr Sweeney has highlighted some differences between the two schemes. Accordingly, the corporate body has asked parliamentary officials to contact the armed forces parliamentary scheme to inquire whether members of the Scottish Parliament may participate in those programmes. We will update Mr Sweeney and members on that in due course.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

I welcome the response in relation to exploring the idea with the Armed Forces Parliamentary Trust. It would be welcome if members of the Scottish Parliament and other devolved legislatures were able to participate in the programme. Given that it is governed by an independent board of trustees and funded largely from industry, that would not necessarily come at any cost to the Scottish Parliament, and it would provide an opportunity for members to augment the existing excellent and well-attended visits programme, which I have also had the opportunity to attend, with a deeper engagement with our armed forces.

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

I do not disagree with that. However, in the first instance, I and the corporate body would encourage more members of the Parliament to participate in the scheme that we have, which is the armed forces parliamentary visits programme. Members will be aware that a communication has gone out in the past couple of days, which identifies opportunities that will be available later this year. Too few MSPs have participated in such opportunities, and I encourage others to do so. It really is a great experience.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

There is a brief supplementary question from Rachael Hamilton.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

I am sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer—I pressed my button because I have a lodged question and you were looking at me.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Thank you for the clarification, Ms Hamilton. I will try to avoid doing that too much in the future. [ Laughter .]

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether it will consider removing from its catering outlets any products made by companies identified by the United Nations human rights office as being involved in activities related to illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory. (S6O-04478)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The catering services at the Scottish Parliament are provided through our service partner Sodexo Limited. Sodexo has been monitoring any supply requirements, and it has no original sources or suppliers within occupied Palestinian territory. I understand that Sodexo continues to review its supply chain, working with supply chain partners to understand risks and challenges related to issues such as international conflict, political instability and logistics.

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

I am grateful for that answer, and I take on trust the assurance that there are no specific products produced in the occupied territories. However, there are products produced by companies that are complicit in activity in the occupied territories. All of us would rightly be horrified if there were products on sale that were profiting companies that were benefiting from the illegal Russian occupation of Ukraine. It seems to me that exactly the same principle should apply in relation to companies that are complicit in the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

I urge the corporate body to consider more deeply the question and whether we can have a stronger position, agreed with catering partners, to ensure that such companies are not profiting from the custom of either staff members or visitors to the Parliament.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

It is important that the corporate body operates within the legal framework. Through the Scottish procurement policy, we ensure that all our contractors comply with all legal requirements. They also adhere to the United Kingdom Government’s embargoes and sanctions list, which was updated in October last year.

Nevertheless, I hear Patrick Harvie’s concerns. He might be interested to learn that our catering contract is due for renewal and that it will be put out to tender soon.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Is Patrick Harvie’s question not just another example of his student union-style obsessive politics? Should the parliamentary catering service not continue to focus on delivering good service and value for money, especially in the eyes of the taxpayer?

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I recognise that Patrick Harvie and Stephen Kerr have different views on some important issues. I say again that our catering service meets all its legal requirements and that we will be putting the contract out to tender quite soon.

John Mason (Independent, Glasgow Shettleston)

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what information it has on for what reason stamps that are issued in the Parliament’s post office are not Scotland country-definitive stamps by default. (S6O-04474)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The corporate body is not responsible for the commercial decisions of the on-site post office. My understanding is that it stocks the standard range of postage stamps that would be available in all high street post offices to cater for customers’ everyday mailing needs. It has confirmed to us that country-definitive postage stamps are available for purchase. On checking at the post office this morning, I found out that it has 300 first-class Scottish stamps and that more can be ordered on request, which would take one to two days.

John Mason (Independent, Glasgow Shettleston)

I accept the point that the situation is the same in post offices outside the Parliament, but the Royal Mail has gone to considerable effort, under pressure, to produce what I think are excellent first and second-class stamps for Scotland. This is Scotland’s national Parliament and we are selling rest-of-the-UK stamps. Does the member not agree that that is bizarre?

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

As I said, the Parliament’s post office makes its own commercial decisions, and a range of stamps—including Scotland-specific stamps—are available on request. The post office currently has Scotland-specific first-class stamps in stock, and it would be happy, if requested to do so by a member, to order a fuller range of stamps, including country-definitive stamps. I understand that, at the moment, it is also possible to get Spice Girls stamps and AC/DC stamps.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I declare an interest as a former trustee of the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme.

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what discussions it has had with the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme trustees about investments in Tesla and any other companies that may conflict with the scheme’s statement of investment principles. (S6O-04477)

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

Although Mark Ruskell’s specific point is one for the trustees of the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme and not the corporate body, I can advise that the SPCB’s duty, in accordance with the provisions of the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009, is to nominate trustees to administer the pension scheme and manage its assets.

Trustees are appointed by the Parliament on the passing of a resolution to approve their nomination. They perform an important role in ensuring the proper running of the scheme. They operate separately from the corporate body in holding scheme assets in trust for scheme beneficiaries. They must fulfil fiduciary duties, including the duty to act impartially, prudently, responsibly and in the best interests of scheme beneficiaries.

The trustees act in accordance with their investment strategy, while keeping the corporate body informed of changes as required. The corporate body does not expect the trustees to notify it of the investment decisions of its fund managers.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

It is quite clear that Elon Musk has promoted extremism and misinformation. He is part of a Trump Administration that has shown utter contempt for human rights across the world. He is a toxic individual. That is just one of the reasons why the value of shares in Tesla is collapsing right now, which will impact on our pensions. Therefore, I welcome the news that Baillie Gifford, which runs our pension funds, has been reducing the amount of funds in Tesla. I would like to see total divestment from Elon Musk’s companies as well.

Will Maggie Chapman reflect on the fact that, this month, the SPPS is to conduct its triennial review? As an employer, the SPCB could and perhaps should encourage all members of the scheme to give feedback on such ethical issues in relation to the ethical investment policy, which is an important part of the governance of our collective pension funds.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

As Mark Ruskell knows, I, too, am pleased that the triennial review will get under way imminently. As he will be aware, as a former scheme trustee, it is the main duty of trustees to act in the financial interests of the scheme beneficiaries. It is also important to be clear that the fiduciary duties of the scheme are taken into account in advice, and I am sure that Baillie Gifford will be taking note of changes in the valuation of Tesla.

I am aware that, in previous sessions, the pension scheme administrators met the corporate body on a more regular basis and that that has not been routine during this session. I therefore undertake to go back to the corporate body and request that. If we decide to take that forward, the corporate body will ensure that there is consultation and discussion with scheme members. I will get back to the member about that in due course.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

That question is another example of student politics. Does the member agree with me that, if we were to extrapolate what is being asked for here, we would need to look at the whole supply chain behind any manufacturers or investments and that that would be an impossible task?

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I gave a pretty full answer in my response to Mark Ruskell. It is clear that the fiduciary duties of the scheme trustees are taken seriously and that supply chain considerations are taken into account. As I said, the corporate body will have further discussions about how best to consult members of the pension scheme, whether or not that is part of our role and responsibility, and will come back to Parliament on that.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what measures it is taking to support any LGBTQ+ staff whose welfare may be negatively impacted by any increase in the use of language in the chamber and committees that may be perceived as trans-exclusionary. (S6O-04479)

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

The corporate body takes its duties under health and safety legislation seriously and has a range of measures in place to promote good mental health and wellbeing for all staff. Those include regular discussions between managers and staff, during which welfare concerns can be discussed and resolved. Staff can also access the free and confidential employee assistance programme, which provides a range of support, including access to counselling.

The corporate body opposes all forms of unlawful discrimination and will take a zero-tolerance approach to and appropriate action against any individual displaying such behaviour. As part of that, staff can access an independent support service, including advocacy support, to help them to address any concerns and to seek an appropriate resolution.

The corporate body’s commitment to all staff, including LGBTQ+ staff, is long-standing and non-negotiable.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

According to the most recent census, trans people make up less than 0.5 per cent of Scotland’s population. However, just this year, their rights to access public services, seek support following rape or abuse, work in the public sector, serve on public bodies and even be mentioned in schools—in short, merely to exist in the public realm at all—have been challenged in this Parliament on no fewer than 10 separate occasions.

We have a duty of care to all who work in the building. Would those completely disproportionate attacks on a group with a characteristic that is protected under the Equality Act 2010 be tolerated in connection with any other marginalised group?

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

I refer the member to my response of a moment ago, which is the corporate body’s response and attitude to the issue.

The uses of language and other incidents to which the member referred have happened within the chamber and in committee meetings, and they are therefore not a matter that falls within the responsibility of the corporate body. The Parliament’s standing orders say that

“Members shall at all times conduct themselves in a courteous and respectful manner and shall respect the authority of the Presiding Officer”

or, in committee meetings, the convener.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what recent assessment it has made of the resources given to the legislation team. (S6O-04475)

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

A comprehensive review of the staffing resource required for session 6 was undertaken in 2021. As a result of that review, additional staff were brought on stream in 2022-23 across the clerking function, including within the legislation team. A flexible resourcing model is operated across the clerking teams, enabling the movement of staff across functions to support peaks in parliamentary business throughout the session. Senior leaders within the parliamentary business directorate continually assess and reprioritise staff resources to ensure the effective delivery of business. Additional resources are being allocated to the legislation team in the forthcoming weeks to increase its staffing complement until the end of the session.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

I am pleased to hear that additional resources are being allocated to the legislation team in the next few weeks, but there has been a noticeable decline in the standard of bills that are presented by the Scottish Government. The legislation team plays a really important role in supporting members of the Scottish Parliament, but the poor standard of Scottish Government bills is resulting in an increased need for significant and complex amendments, which is causing delays in the parliamentary process.

Does the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body share my concerns about the quality of the bills that are being introduced by the Scottish Government, which is having an impact on parliamentary resources and the welfare of the staff here?

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

Although the corporate body acknowledges that, in the current session, a number of bills have been subject to delays during the scrutiny process for a variety of reasons, none of those relate to the resourcing of the legislation team. Legislation team officials work with their Scottish Government counterparts via established routes to ensure that business is prioritised and programmed appropriately and to avoid pinch points wherever possible.

I appreciate that that does not address the member’s question in full, but it is not the corporate body’s role to take a view on the quality of bills that come to Parliament from the Scottish Government, as Rachael Hamilton suggests.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

That concludes Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body question time. Before we move on to the next item of business, there will be a very short pause to allow the front-bench teams to quickly change positions.

Portfolio Question Time

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

To ask the Scottish Government how it is ensuring that schools in the Highlands and Islands are safe learning environments for pupils and staff. (S6O-04466)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Although it is the statutory responsibility of local authorities to manage and maintain their school estates, the Scottish Government expects them to provide safe learning environments for all pupils and staff. As a result of continued investment by central Government and local government, the proportion of schools that are in good or satisfactory condition increased from 62.7 per cent in 2007 to 91.7 per cent in 2024. However, I want that progress to stretch further so, tomorrow, Scottish Government officials will participate in an event with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, local authorities, the Scottish Futures Trust and other stakeholders to talk to this important matter.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The issue of violence in our schools was raised with the First Minister at First Minister’s question time earlier today. As is the case across Scotland, there is a worrying increase in violence in Highland schools. Figures that have been passed to me suggest that a member of staff in a Highland school is assaulted approximately every 22 minutes, with 3,408 reported incidents in the 2023-24 school year, and there are rising concerns about violence involving knives, improvised weapons such as scissors and sexual assaults in our schools. Given that the First Minister failed to give a detailed response when he was questioned on the subject, can the cabinet secretary advise me what specific and immediate actions the Scottish Government is taking to tackle the crisis and ensure the safety of staff and pupils?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank the member for his interest in the matter, which was raised at First Minister’s question time today. He asked what specific action the Government is taking. The First Minister set out in his response the specific action that I have taken in relation to the action plan. However, to give the member some comfort, I note that the action plan will be updated in the coming weeks, and I am more than happy to write to him to provide an update on that work.

The First Minister also spoke to some of the challenges that we are seeing in our schools in relation to misogyny. Last year, the Government launched a gender framework in that respect and looked at supporting schools with direct resources around that issue.

More interestingly, perhaps, given the member’s question, the Time for Inclusive Education campaign has been rolling out some work in relation to tackling misinformation in our schools. I was in a school recently—two weeks ago—when that fascinating work was launched, and it links exactly to the question that Mr Cole-Hamilton put during First Minister’s question time.

The Government has also provided an uplift in funding in relation to some of these challenges.

As the member will have heard in the First Minister’s response, some of the issues relate to Covid, but there have been changes more broadly in relation to behaviour and relationships.

I am conscious of time, but I am happy to write to the member with more detail if that would be useful.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

It is so important that the facilities that teachers and pupils teach and learn in are positive and of a high standard, and I know that there is great excitement at the moment about the new Nairn academy building. Can the cabinet secretary give more detail on the investment that is being made in the Highlands and Islands through the learning estate investment programme?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Ms Roddick is absolutely right to raise the importance of the school estate, which I mentioned in my response to Mr Halcro Johnston, as we know that the quality of the school estate can help to make a positive impact on attainment. Through the £2 billion learning estate investment programme, the Scottish Government will provide the Highlands and Islands with substantial funding for nine school infrastructure projects, which includes £21.3 million for the new Nairn academy, which the member has spoken about, and £23.4 million for the Tain campus.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to ensure that there is adequate access to support in schools for children with additional support needs in island areas, including the Orkney Islands constituency. (S6O-04467)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Local authorities oversee the delivery of education and have a statutory duty to identify, provide for, and review the support that they provide for pupils with additional support needs in their local school communities, including the Orkney Islands. Spending on additional support for learning by local authorities has reached a record high of more than £1 billion in 2023-24, and the 2025-26 budget allocates a further £29 million of investment for ASN. In addition, the national e-learning offer provides a range of online support and resources to supplement local provision.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I welcome the cabinet secretary’s response. Notwithstanding that, Audit Scotland has made it clear that ministers have not done enough to plan for the growing demand for ASL provision, and that funding arrangements are not currently fit for purpose. Unmet demand is one of the most significant risks for Orkney Islands Council’s education services, with pressures on staff recruitment and retention as well as a shrinking school estate contributing to the inability of schools to provide the support that children who have additional needs require. In Orkney, all children who require additional support, including those who have more complex needs, are provided for by mainstream schooling, but mainstream schools are excluded from the funding that is available for special schools.

What will the cabinet secretary do to address the specific island dimension to the wider, and growing, problems with the delivery of ASL to pupils across Scotland?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am mindful of Audit Scotland’s report, which I responded to two weeks ago. I am keen to engage with Audit Scotland on the detail of its report, which talks to the Scottish Government’s funding and the need for more granularity to ensure that it gets to those who need it most. I know that the member will welcome the extra funding that is being provided through phase 3 of the learning estate investment programme to the Orkney Islands Council, which will provide funding to support the Kirkwall ASN centre project. I am keen to reflect on the member’s specific question about how our policy interacts with islands provision with my officials, and I am more than happy to engage with him on that point.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Stephen Kerr has requested a supplementary. I point out that the question in the business bulletin concerns children with additional support needs in island areas, including the Orkney Islands constituency. If that is the matter that Mr Kerr wishes to ask a supplementary question about, he is most welcome to do that.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Yes, it is specifically and generally about the Audit Scotland report. [Interruption.]

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Mr Kerr, it has to relate to children’s additional support needs in island areas, including the Orkney Islands constituency.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

As I say, it is specific, but it also has application in other authorities.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

I am not going to get into it. I am giving you the opportunity to come up with something that relates to the question that is in the business bulletin. Please either continue or do not.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I am referring to the Audit Scotland report. I wrote to the cabinet secretary and she kindly replied to me. In her reply, she said that

“We know that there is a general consensus across our education system, that the principles of inclusion—on which our system is based—are sound.”

Does the cabinet secretary accept that, in some instances, the presumption of mainstreaming has gone too far, to the detriment of the children with additional support needs and the learning environment in the classroom?

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Mr Kerr, that did not relate—

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

In Orkney.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Well, if that is the level of participation.

Cabinet secretary, please respond to Mr Kerr to the extent that the question relates to the subject matter of the substantive question that is in the business bulletin.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The member and I recently discussed the issue during a members’ business debate. I do not accept the premise of the member’s point about the presumption of mainstreaming, but I am happy to engage with him on the substantive issue of funding. I have to note, as I did in the recent members’ business debate, which was led by Alexander Stewart, that the Conservatives failed to support the Government’s budget, which provided an extra £29 million for additional support needs, including for children who live in the Orkney Islands.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

To ask the Scottish Government how it supports schools to ensure that pupils with additional support needs can access learning environments that meet their needs without being excluded from activities or isolated from their peers. (S6O-04468)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

All children and young people should receive the support that they need to reach their full potential. Local authorities have a statutory duty to identify and provide such support and to review the support that they provide for pupils with additional support needs in the local community.

Complementing that, curriculum for excellence provides a broad framework within which educators are empowered to provide learning and teaching experiences that best suit the needs of individual learners. That includes taking into account choice and personalisation for the learner in curriculum design and delivery.