Scottish Parliament, 10 October 2024

358 contributions from 69 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning. The first item of business is general question time.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government what consideration it has given to removing free bus passes from people who abuse the system. (S6O-03837)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The vast majority of passengers who travel under the national concessionary travel scheme behave appropriately. However, a minority of people of all ages abuse their entitlement, which includes committing offences. That can result in serious harm to bus employees and passengers, which is simply not acceptable.

Bus operators can already restrict their services in line with their conditions of carriage, and Transport Scotland has prioritised work with operators and other stakeholders to develop further sanctions, including the removal of passes and taking preventative measures.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I thank the cabinet secretary for the work that we have done jointly on the issue. I enjoyed working with her while I was transport spokesman.

We have spoken about the issue before. I think that the cabinet secretary has the powers to do something, so will she confirm that? Will she agree to meet unions whose members are affected by such antisocial behaviour? Will she put a timescale on taking action?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I thank Graham Simpson for his constructive, considered and intelligent approach as Opposition transport spokesperson. I think that he has a passion for the issue, so I am sure that he will continue to take an interest in transport. On the substance of his points, I will meet the unions this afternoon, so I will continue my dialogue with them.

I point out that the legislation that underpins the national concessionary travel scheme does not make specific provision for removing access to the scheme when it is misused—for example, if someone fraudulently allows another person to use their card. We are working on that, which might require changes to the main scheme.

It is a challenge to give members timescales at this point, but I know that Graham Simpson has been persistent on the issue, and I will continue to consider it.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I initially shared Graham Simpson’s concerns, but I have to say that, in recent months, matters have settled down on the buses with the under-22 concessionary scheme. I would be pleased if the cabinet secretary could keep the Parliament informed of any changes to that scheme, such as changes to bring in penalties or provisions to remove cards, if necessary.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I will keep members informed of any progress. In Scotland, we aim to promote an agenda whereby children are prevented from getting involved in offending behaviour and are supported effectively when they do so.

A range of measures to prevent and tackle antisocial behaviour on buses is available. Experience with ScotRail shows that body-worn cameras play an important role in deterring antisocial and criminal behaviour, and we are actively considering how that learning can apply to the bus network.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I have witnessed some shocking behaviour on buses from people of all ages, and drivers have told me just how bad it can get. Has the transport secretary assessed the impact of that behaviour on passenger numbers? If not, when will she manage to do that?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

That is an important point. I do not have information to hand on whether there has been an impact, but I will certainly ask my officials to look into that.

The young persons free bus pass for under-22s has, in effect, saved the bus system in many ways. The pandemic resulted in a collapse in patronage and in older people not coming back to buses as much. We need to recognise that the scheme has been a success for young people and for the bus companies but, where there has been antisocial behaviour, we need to introduce different measures. Monitoring patronage is an important part of that.

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government what would be required for the frequency of service on the Milngavie rail line to return to quarter-hourly throughout the day, as was the case before the Covid-19 pandemic. (S6O-03838)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

As was discussed with Ross Greer during our meeting last year, Milngavie station is well served under the regular timetable, which was reintroduced on Monday this week. There are two trains per hour throughout the day, which increases to four trains per hour in peak times. The current service provision reflects passenger demand in the peak and off-peak periods.

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

I am grateful for the time that the cabinet secretary and her officials took to speak to me last year. My question was about what would be required for the Milngavie line to return to its pre-pandemic timetable of four trains an hour throughout the day. Until the pandemic, there clearly was the patronage to support that, and I am interested to find out what would be required for us to return to that. I recognise that we are not at that stage yet; I am simply asking the Government to explain what would be required for us to return to four trains an hour throughout the day and not just at peak times.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The member might be aware that ScotRail assessed timetables to identify how we could maximise usage and meet customer needs. However, sometimes, after availability and a cost benefit analysis have been taken into account, it is not always possible to give everybody what they want at every opportunity. I know that reliability of services is important to regular users of train services. In terms of additional resources, such as fleet and drivers, ScotRail will continue to keep the matter under review. As for the member’s ambitions, he has to recognise that we are still moving past the Covid period in terms of patronage both on buses, which we just discussed, and on rail.

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

Although I am glad to hear that the temporary timetable is finally no longer in place, commuters from my local area of Milngavie are now forced to pay £7.10 instead of £4.80 for a service to Glasgow during peak times. The Government has also put forward a plan to reduce car kilometres by 20 per cent by 2030. How does the Scottish Government expect to reduce car travel when it has made public transport more costly?

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

That question was fairly expansive in relation to the substantive question. You may respond on the substantive point, cabinet secretary.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Help for passengers to use rail more often includes the introduction of discounts of 20 per cent on weekly season tickets, monthly season tickets and annual season tickets. If people go from Glasgow to Milngavie, or in the other direction, four days per week with a monthly season ticket, the cost per day can be £4.60. If people use a flexipass, which allows six return journeys over a 60-day period and can help people who are hybrid working, that cost is only £4.78. I am sure that, after I sent members a letter that provided sample costs when people use the discounts, Pam Gosal and other MSPs will have promoted those discounts and circulated that information to their constituents.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

We move to question 3. Let us keep our questions and responses concise.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its work on inclusive communication. (S6O-03839)

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

We wrote to update stakeholders on the Scottish Government’s work on inclusive communications on 14 August 2024. The letter shared the decision to produce enhanced guidance, tools and training to support public authorities to improve their use of inclusive communication. That, in turn, should help them to better perform their general equality duty.

My decision was informed by careful consideration of what we believe would make the most impact. We have since confirmed funding for that work, and officials have begun preparations for a scoping exercise on resources and gaps.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

My constituent Marion Burns from Renfrewshire, who has to communicate through a device, has shared with me her difficulty in using public services. In a recent letter to me, the minister turned down the opportunity to meet Marion and others with similar lived experience. That is despite the minister’s predecessor having suggested a meeting, which I presume was because of a recognition that work on inclusive communication should involve those who have inclusive communication needs, so that they can provide invaluable insight into their experience. Will the minister reconsider and meet my constituent and others at the earliest opportunity?

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

I note that Neil Bibby has been consistent on the issue and has raised it many times on his constituent’s behalf. Now that I am five months into the job, I am happy to take up his challenge and look at the matter.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government what impact it anticipates that the planned closure of Grangemouth oil refinery will have on the Forties pipeline system and associated jobs and businesses. (S6O-03840)

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

We continue to engage constructively with businesses at Grangemouth to fully understand the impact that the closure of the refinery will have on the area, in particular on employment.

Ineos has confirmed that the Grangemouth refinery does not process significant volumes of Forties pipeline system derived crude, with the majority of the asset’s feedstocks being imported. Therefore, it is expected that the refinery’s closure will have limited impact on the Forties pipeline system.

More generally, and as outlined in the Scottish Government’s draft energy strategy, oil extracted from the North Sea is predominantly exported to international markets.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The cabinet secretary’s complacency is extremely concerning, because industry voices and experts warn that the Forties pipeline—which connects 80 fields to the mainland and enables around 59 per cent of the United Kingdom’s oil and gas to reach customers—could shut down as early as 2030 due to the fiscal and licensing regime that both of Scotland’s Governments are pursuing. The GMB says that both Governments have taken a hostile, fundamentally dishonest position on the realities of oil and gas.

Will the cabinet secretary be honest and tell us when the delayed, discredited draft energy strategy will finally be published and whether the deeply damaging presumption against oil and gas will be removed?

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

It is somewhat bizarre to hear a member discredit a strategy that has not yet been published.

The oil and gas fiscal regime and the UK energy profits levy, which the member referenced, were reserved to the UK Government and introduced under the predecessor regime to the current Labour Government. I agree with Liam Kerr on one point, which is that we have consistently called for a fiscal regime for North Sea oil and gas that provides stability and certainty to businesses, protects jobs based in Scotland, and incentivises investment in renewables.

I confirm that the Government is concerned about energy security. It believes that we should do everything in our power to support the transition and never lose sight of the importance of energy security in that process.

On the specific issue of the Forties pipeline system—

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Very briefly, please.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

We recognise that it is critical and will continue to work hard to support the careful management of the North Sea energy transition.

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

To ask the Scottish Government what preparations it has conducted in advance of the planned opening of Glasgow city health and social care partnership’s safer drug consumption facility on 21 October. (S6O-03841)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

The Scottish Government has provided £2 million funding for Glasgow’s safer drug consumption facility, and we have been working with groups leading on the implementation, necessary communications and evaluation of the project. We are also continuing to engage with the Crown Office and the police in the final stages in support of Glasgow city health and social care partnership, which is leading on the facility’s establishment.

Glasgow’s HSCP is continuing to work towards opening the service as near to the indicative date of 21 October as possible. However, that is subject to compliance with the national health service assure guidance and approvals, which are not yet concluded. Therefore, we have been advised that a date for the service to become operational has yet to be confirmed.

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

Real, workable, common-sense methods to fix our drug deaths crisis are needed and welcomed. Since 2007, drug deaths have nearly tripled and we now have the worst drug deaths rate in Europe. Tackling that issue through harm reduction is a commendable goal, but those people who work in recovery say that residential rehabilitation, too, must be a priority. The cabinet secretary has mentioned £2 million, but how much does he expect the funding to be annually for the facility and how much has the Scottish Government spent on residential rehab?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I recognise the long-standing interest that Annie Wells has shown in that area. She is right that there is no silver bullet—no one answer to our addressing the levels of drug deaths that we are seeing, which I acknowledge are far too high.

Annie Wells is also right that it is not only harm reduction that is important, but residential rehab. We are funding the facility in Glasgow for £2 million annually for the next few years and we have committed £100 million over the lifetime of the national mission for the expansion of residential rehab. That includes £38 million, which will increase the number of publicly funded beds by 140. Public Health Scotland said in its February report that we are on track to meet the target of 1,000 publicly funded places in residential rehab by the end of 2026.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

Can the cabinet secretary confirm that he is doing all that is in his power to minimise the delays with the NHS assure sign-off process? Can he also confirm that progress is being made with sign-offs for drug testing at the facility and with screening for blood-borne viruses such as HIV and hepatitis C?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Mr Sweeney for his question and for his long-standing interest in the issue. He will be aware that the NHS assure process is largely outwith my control, as it is an assurance process by its nature, which means that facilities have to go through the processes.

I am very keen that we make progress on the drug testing facilities. There is the potential to make progress on harm reduction, and we are interacting with the Home Office on the necessary processes that would be required from it to allow that to happen.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with Transport Scotland and Amey regarding the repairs that are required at Union bridge on the A96 in Keith. (S6O-03842)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Repairing the A96 Union bridge is a priority, and that expectation has been made clear to our operating company, Amey. However, undertaking the repairs has been complicated by buried services, the work being adjacent to a watercourse, the environmental permissions that are required prior to commencing the works, and the importance of engaging the community in the proposed works so that they know what to expect.

All of that work has now been developed or is under way, and I expect to receive a proposal setting out the permanent repair and the timescale for completion shortly. I will be happy to update relevant members once those decisions have been made.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I am grateful for that response, and it should be a priority, but this traffic upgrade has been required since July on a crucial trunk road—the A96, which takes people from Aberdeen to Inverness.

It is important to say that Keith is open for business, but when I have spoken to shop owners recently, they have said that they are seeing a big downturn in footfall because of the restrictions in place and the impact that those restrictions have had on traffic.

Will the cabinet secretary do everything that she can to accelerate the works? As I say, months have passed and so far nothing has happened on the ground. Will she meet with me and business owners in Keith so that she can hear at first hand the impact that it is having on them?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I understand that meetings have taken place with businesses and with members of the Scottish Parliament about the disruption. That engagement is taking place in order to minimise the impact of the disruption, so I am quite confident that the member has had an opportunity to take part in such discussions.

The works are expected to commence in early winter and to be complete before spring 2025. The work is predominantly from the river, and a lane of the A96 will remain open during the works, controlled by temporary traffic lights, as at present. However, it is a complex site. It has a waste-water pipe, a gas main and BT cables, and environmental consultations are also needed.

I referred to engagement in my initial answer. The member asked for further engagement, but engagement has already been taking place and indeed will continue to take place with businesses to make sure that they understand what will be happening and when.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its work to support the introduction of a ban on biodegradable municipal waste going to landfill. (S6O-03843)

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

Scotland was the first nation in the United Kingdom to introduce a ban on sending biodegradable municipal waste to landfill, and 29 local authorities have arrangements in place to comply with the ban, which comes into force on 31 December 2025.

Zero Waste Scotland continues to provide support to local authorities without arrangements to ensure that they are able to meet the requirement on 31 December 2025, and it will publish an updated analysis of residual waste management capacity in Scotland in mid-October.

UK statistics on waste that were published on 28 September show a decrease of 53 per cent of biodegradable municipal waste going to landfill in Scotland since 2010, in part reflecting the preparations for the forthcoming ban.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The Scottish Government accepts that there is a risk of incineration overcapacity within as little as two years of the landfill ban being introduced. However, despite the Government claiming to oppose incinerators, a loophole means that those already with planning permission can go ahead. In fact, an extra 420,000 tonnes of capacity have become operational in just the past two years. The loophole can be closed, so how will the cabinet secretary prevent Scotland from becoming the ashtray of Europe?

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has powers to make impartial assessments, put pollution prevention and control regulations in place, and make decisions relating to environmental permits in accordance with those regulations. I know that there have been calls for the Scottish ministers to intervene in the process that is run by SEPA—the PPC process—but they would not normally do so unless there were exceptional circumstances.

The key policy levers that are available to the Scottish ministers to manage capacity are in planning. A review was carried out to which we responded, saying that no further planning permission should be granted for incineration facilities beyond what is already in place.

First Minister’s Question Time

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Just weeks ago, the Scottish National Party released almost 500 prisoners early, before they had served their sentences. In 98 per cent of those cases, the victims were not even told. The Government is now considering the early release of some of the most dangerous criminals in Scotland. Does John Swinney believe that that is the right thing to do?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I understand the seriousness of the issues that Mr Findlay has put to me. We have to address the rising prison population in a sustainable and effective way. The Government took measures that were explained fully to the Parliament, and they took place only once we had parliamentary consent to those steps.

Fundamentally, there is a difficulty about the rise in the prison population. This morning, the prison population is sitting at 8,322, which is a very high level. Ministers are concerned about the wellbeing of prison officer staff and prisoners as a consequence of the level of congestion in our prisons. We have to act, and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs will give a statement to the Parliament this afternoon on those issues.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

In 2015, John Swinney’s Government ended the automatic early release of prisoners serving sentences of more than four years. My party voted against it, because we believed that the measure should have gone further by applying to both short-term and long-term prisoners. The SNP believed the same—at one stage, at least. Nicola Sturgeon even said:

“Our objective remains to end the policy of automatic early release completely”.—[Official Report, 2 April 2015; c 19.]

John Swinney might be even softer on crime than Nicola Sturgeon. Victims groups feel that killers, rapists, domestic abusers, drug dealers and child abusers could be freed early. Does the First Minister believe that such prisoners should be let out without any consideration for victims or public safety?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

If we were to follow the logic of what Mr Findlay said in his question to me and the Conservative position that he articulated from 2015, it would result in a much higher prison population than we have today: it would result in prisoners serving longer than is the case, and we would have an even more congested and, I would say, unsafe prison estate.

We must take the appropriate measures to ensure the sustainability of our prison system. The reality that we face in the prison system today is not one that we are alone in facing, because it has been faced in other parts of the United Kingdom. Significant action was taken by Mr Findlay’s colleagues in Government before the general election—and has been taken by the new Labour Government after the general election—to address the fact that there is significant pressure on prison populations throughout the United Kingdom.

We will take a responsible approach, which will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, and we will always take into account the perspectives and views of victims and address the concerns that they legitimately have about these difficult issues.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

The reason why the prisons are in such a catastrophic state is entirely down to this SNP Government.

Let us take a look at the kind of criminals that we could be talking about if a new form of SNP early release is announced today. Here are some examples of recent sentences that have been imposed by Scottish courts: seven years for raping a 10-year-old girl; nine years for stabbing a man to death; and five years for sexually abusing four young boys. All those criminals, and many others like them, could be let out early. People in the real world cannot get their heads around criminals not serving the sentences that they are given. Would the First Minister ever find it acceptable to let those kinds of criminals out early?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The issues that Mr Findlay raises are serious. It is not for me to question the sentencing policy that is independently decided by the judiciary. If I was to do that, I would be breaching my constitutional role as First Minister, in which I must respect—this was part of the oath of office that I took when I became First Minister—the distinction between my responsibilities as the leader of an executive Government, and the independent role of the judiciary. If I were to trespass into that area, I would fundamentally compromise the independence of the judiciary. That might be what Mr Findlay wants to do, but it is certainly not what this First Minister, who respects the rule of law and the oath of office that he took, is going to do.

Mr Findlay has suggested that, somehow, we are experiencing a lack of action on justice. Our prisons are absolutely bursting at the seams. That suggests to me—[ Interruption .]

Things have been shouted at me, so let me clarify that point. Scotland imprisons more offenders per head of population than most other European countries. As a Government, we already invest heavily in alternatives to custody to make sure that we have a sustainable prison estate. Today, we must ensure that the prison officers who run our prisons and our prisoners, to whom we have legal obligations, are working and living in a safe and stable environment. That will underpin the Government’s actions.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Unbelievable. What a stunning lack of self-awareness. John Swinney talks about respecting judicial independence, but by releasing 500 prisoners early, he trashed judicial independence.

Over the past 17 years, the SNP has relentlessly weakened justice in Scotland. Criminals already get away with inflicting pain and misery on innocent people due to the SNP’s failure to tackle crime. Victims and the law-abiding majority are paying the price. For far too long, the SNP’s justice system has sided with criminals and not with victims. We have the police issuing a slap on the wrist for serious crimes, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service diverting criminals from prosecution and prisoners not serving sentences that have been imposed by the independent judiciary. There is a stunning lack of common sense, and it is leaving people feeling that this Parliament does not represent them.

Why has the Government stacked the entire justice system against crime victims?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

That is patently untrue. Over the past decade, the average length of prison sentences has increased by 32 per cent. That statistic alone demonstrates that Russell Findlay is putting complete nonsense to me at First Minister’s question time. Ninety-eight per cent of all those who were convicted of rape and attempted rape between 2019 and 2022 received a custodial sentence. That is another fact that refutes what Russell Findlay has put to me today.

We have an obligation to ensure that we run a stable and safe prison system. Given the level of the prison population that we have just now, it is a challenge for ministers to fulfil our obligations in that respect, so ministers must act. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs will give full and transparent information to Parliament in her statement this afternoon, and the Government will take the steps that have to be taken, but it will require the consent of Parliament to do so.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

When the Parliament returns after the coming recess, it will be the start of winter. We have a winter NHS crisis every year, but the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said that there is a winter crisis every day and that the Government continues to disregard the urgent need to keep patients moving through the system. [Interruption .]

I do not know why members are heckling people who are struggling to get NHS treatment. I am talking about their constituents.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

I ask members to ensure that we can hear one another.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

That behaviour tells us everything that we need to know about Scottish National Party members’ priorities.

The Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said that it is like

“the winter crisis ... but every day”

and that the Government is

“continuing to disregard”

the urgent need to keep patients moving through the system.

Three key factors exacerbate the crisis: the number of beds and resources that are lost due to delayed discharge, patients not being treated due to long waits and a lack of capacity that leaves accident and emergency departments overwhelmed. We need meaningful action.

As I speak today, an estimated 1,500 people are stuck in hospital because of a lack of care packages. Can the First Minister guarantee that social care packages will be in place for all those who are needlessly stuck in hospital, so that they can get home for Christmas?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I acknowledge the challenges that Mr Sarwar puts to me. He knows from our exchanges in previous weeks that the issue of delayed discharge occupies a significant proportion of my time and the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, because it is at too high a level and is too high for the start of winter. I am deeply concerned about that issue.

We are working with individual partnerships to reduce the level of delayed discharge in different parts of the country. There is significant variation around the country: some parts of the country have very low numbers of patients who are in hospital but who could be in other care settings or at home, whereas those numbers are too high in other parts of the country.

I assure Mr Sarwar that deep and intense work is going on with individual partnerships to reduce levels of delayed discharge and to ensure that the objective that he puts to me, which is one that I want to deliver, can be achieved as we approach winter.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Despite what the First Minister says, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said:

“we haven’t seen any useful measures so far”

from the Government.

Long waits pile even more pressure on our NHS during winter. Information obtained following a freedom of information request has revealed shockingly long waits for treatment. Some people have been waiting since 2017 for urology treatment, which is a seven-year wait; some have been waiting for general surgery since 2018, which is more than six years; and some have waited more than five years for ophthalmology, gynaecology or orthopaedic treatment, among others. That is scandalous.

The SNP promised to clear waits of more than two years by September 2022, but it has utterly failed. People who go untreated often end up in emergency departments as their condition deteriorates, which places even more pressure on NHS services. Can the First Minister guarantee that every patient who has already waited for more than two years will be treated by Christmas?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The national health service is working to reduce waiting times for individuals. The latest information that is available to us on NHS in-patient and day-case activity, which is for quarter 2, tells us that that is now at the highest level since the start of the pandemic.

The problems that Mr Sarwar puts to me are an accumulation of the impact of delays to treatment because of the pandemic. On waiting times, the figures that I just put on the record show the 10th quarterly increase in a row and are 9.9 per cent higher than they were during the same period last year. That comes on top of the fact that, over the past 12 months, there has been a 5.1 per cent increase in the number of operations performed, which addresses part of the issue that Mr Sarwar put to me, principally with regard to orthopaedic treatment and others.

We are seeing an improvement in national health service capability and in its capacity to impact on the waits that Mr Sarwar put to me, but we have significant challenges to overcome as a consequence of the pandemic. The Government is focusing resources through the investments that we are making. In this financial year, we have allocated more than £19.5 billion—a record amount of funding—to the national health service to ensure that the resources are in place to address the challenges that Mr Sarwar put to me.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The Scottish Government promised to clear all waits of more than two years by September 2022. People are waiting four, five, six or seven years for treatment, so that response will be cold comfort for people across the country right now.

There is no commitment to guarantee care packages for the 1,500 people who are needlessly stuck in hospital in order to free up much-needed beds and resources. There is no commitment to clear long waits of more than two years by Christmas, which means patients suffering and pressures being added to A and E departments. Those solutions would unlock much-needed capacity in our NHS.

The health secretary published his winter preparedness plan two weeks ago, but it has already been dismissed by key figures in our NHS. Rather than having an actual plan for winter, the Government is supposedly moving to year-round surge planning. Despite what the health secretary says, that proves that we have a crisis in our NHS all year round—a permanent crisis in our NHS. Will the First Minister listen to doctors and nurses on the front line and come back to the Parliament with an actual plan to meet the scale of the NHS crisis this winter?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Government is putting in place the planning to do exactly that. That is the core duty of the Government. We are also putting in place resources—record investment of £19.5 billion in the national health service is delivering increases in staffing levels to ensure that there is the capacity to deliver the treatment that is required in the national health service.

We have to recognise that the Government can allocate only the resources that it has at its disposal, and we are allocating a record amount of funding. As Mr Sarwar knows, because we have rehearsed these points many times before, the climate of austerity that we have wrestled with for the past 14 years—[ Interruption ]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Mr Sarwar.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

—from the Conservative Government places significant challenges on our resources, but we have exceeded the amount of money that was allocated through the Barnett formula to the health service because of the commitment of this Government.

Mr Sarwar thinks that it would help to follow his approach on taxation, which would reduce public expenditure in Scotland by £1.5 billion. That would not help the national health service one little bit. On funding, as the United Kingdom Secretary of State for Health and Social Care said when he was in opposition,

“All roads do lead back to Westminster”.

We will wait to find out what the budget tells us when the Parliament comes back after the October recess. Let us see whether the Labour Party breaks with austerity and whether Labour is prepared to invest, because what Mr Sarwar has put to me today is a demand for more investment, but we are not getting that from the Labour Government.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

To ask the First Minister when the Cabinet will next meet. (S6F-03447)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Cabinet will meet shortly after the October recess.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

Steven is a teenager who is waiting for a diagnosis for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and a range of other complex conditions. His initial consultation with child and adolescent mental health services was five years ago, but he is still waiting for treatment, and his family have no idea when he will reach the front of what must now be the longest queue in the national health service. They fear that he will face more of the most important years of his life—with schooling, relationships and exams—without the care pathway or the medication that he needs.

This is a national crisis. Across Scotland, the number of ADHD referrals has skyrocketed—in Glasgow, it is up by 1,000 per cent among adults—but resources have simply not kept pace with demand. Today is world mental health day, and we know that ADHD often presents alongside other conditions, including anxiety and depression. When we get to next year’s world mental health day, will Steven and others like him still be waiting for care?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

First, I am sorry that Steven has waited as long as Mr Cole-Hamilton has narrated to me today. If he wishes to furnish me with information about the case, I will, of course, look into it and see what can be established.

What I will say to reassure Mr Cole-Hamilton is that there has been a 15 per cent increase in the number of people accessing CAMHS compared with pre-pandemic levels. In the financial year 2023-24, 18,366 patients started treatment with CAMHS and, in 2022-23, the highest number of people on record started treatment with CAMHS. One in two children and young people who are referred to CAMHS now start treatment within six weeks, which is a significant improvement on pre-pandemic levels.

I know that that is no comfort in addressing the particular circumstance that Mr Cole-Hamilton put to me, but I assure him that the Government has put resources into that area of activity. In 2022-23, the budget was increased from £98 million to £114.8 million—an increase of 17.2 per cent. I hope that that is an indication to Mr Cole-Hamilton of the seriousness with which the Government takes those issues and of its willingness to address them. We will, of course, commit to doing more, and we will consider the points that Mr Cole-Hamilton has put to me when we settle on our budget position for the next financial year. I hope that we will be able to make improvements on that question.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is, regarding any potential impact on its fair work agenda and the night-time economy in Scotland, to the new United Kingdom legal framework that has come into force requiring employers to pass all tips, gratuities and service charges on to workers. (S6F-03439)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

We welcome the new legal framework, which will ensure that tipping practices are fair, transparent and for the benefit of hospitality, leisure and service workers, who do a great job, every day, in serving our communities across Scotland. The legislation is a step in the right direction for improving pay and conditions for workers.

The Scottish Government is committed to fair work as a key driver for achieving sustainable and inclusive economic growth and a wellbeing economy. Through our fair work first policy, we are using the Scottish Government’s financial powers to drive fair work practice and enable Scotland to be a fair work nation by 2025. We will continue to work in partnership with business to ensure that the measures enhance those important economic sectors.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

I, too, heartily welcome the move. Employers should never seek to profit from tips that are given to hard-working staff.

I note that, under the new legislation, workers will still need to pay tax on their tips. Does the First Minister share my indignation that His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs appears to exempt politicians from paying tax on gifts from donors, despite requiring my constituents to pay tax on gratuities in other sectors? Does he agree that that represents a clear inequity that the Labour Government should amend?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Clare Adamson has made a reasonable point, and she welcomes the legislative changes. However, key aspects of the income tax system, such as the definition of taxable income, continue to be reserved. This Parliament cannot effect change on matters such as tips and taxes on gifts.

Clare Adamson has made a very fair and reasonable point, which I am sure will have been heard by those who take those decisions in the United Kingdom Government. If they are at all interested in fairness, the call that she has made should be acted on. [ Interruption .]

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

Mr Sarwar.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am not quite sure why Mr Sarwar is so agitated about this—maybe he has something to be worried about. The fair and substantial point that my friend and colleague Clare Adamson made should be heeded.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

I am interested in fairness, which is why I welcome the UK Government’s publication today of the Employment Rights Bill, which will bring about the biggest increase in workers’ rights in a generation—ending fire and rehire, banning exploitative zero-hours contracts and introducing day 1 rights. That is all in the first 100 days of a Labour Government. [ Interruption .]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear Mr O’Kane.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

What about the Scottish Government’s fair work agenda? I and colleagues have written to Government ministers about fair work in the night-time economy and social care, and we have been told that no support is forthcoming to deliver on the promises that this Government made on fair work. When will the Government make good on its fair work promises? In the spirit of new partnership, what work has the Government done with the new Labour Government to ensure the implementation of those workers’ rights, here in Scotland?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Deputy First Minister has raised and discussed co-operation between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government with the Deputy Prime Minister, Angela Rayner, and I have an opportunity to meet the Prime Minister tomorrow, both individually and as part of the council of the nations and regions. I look forward to that.

We welcome the Employment Rights Bill that has been published, and we will co-operate on its implementation. I am struck by the fact that the general secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress has argued for the devolution of employment law to the Scottish Parliament so that we can be insulated from the legislation that has been used by the previous Conservative Government to undermine workers’ and labour rights in Scotland. Of course, I very much agree with the STUC on that point.

Mr O’Kane raised with me the fact that we are at the 100 days moment. It is important that, for completeness, we talk about all the things that have happened in those 100 days. We have had the cut to winter fuel payments for pensioners, which nobody expected to come from a Labour Government, but it has been prepared to protect the rich and punish the poor. What on earth has the Labour Party been up to in its first 100 days in office?

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

To ask the First Minister what support the Scottish Government is providing to NHS boards in order to reduce waiting times for breast reconstruction surgery. (S6F-03444)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am acutely aware that there are patients who have waited too long for reconstructive breast surgery. I sincerely apologise to them for that. Reconstructive surgeries are generally highly specialised and can be performed only in certain specialist centres across Scotland, which are currently concentrating their efforts on treating patients with trauma or active cancers. Regrettably, that means that some patients are waiting longer for reconstruction.

As part of this year’s £30 million additional investment to address backlogs, we have allocated funding to several health boards to treat patients who are awaiting risk-reducing mastectomy and immediate reconstruction. Building on that work, officials are now engaging with health boards to develop and progress the plan for patients with delayed reconstruction.

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The Press and Journal has reported that Denise Rothnie was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2020. NHS Grampian told her that she could have a mastectomy straight away but, due to the pandemic, she could not have a reconstruction at the same time, because of limited surgical capacity.

Three years on, Denise is still waiting for her reconstruction. She is languishing at the bottom of a waiting list because, shockingly, the resources to help her are still not available. First Minister, you have apologised today, and I am sure that Denise will be grateful for that. However, when will she, and other women in that terrible position, receive that vital operation?

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Always speak through the chair.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am sorry for the circumstances that Tess White puts to me, but the explanation that I have given illustrates the challenges that we face. Clinical priority is driving attention to addressing patients who face trauma or active cancers. As I explained in my answers to Mr Sarwar, we are trying to make progress on the backlog of cases that emerged during the pandemic, which is the context for the case that Tess White raises.

I cannot stand here and offer an instant solution—I am sorry about that—but I will give Tess White a commitment that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will engage constructively and actively with health boards to try to make more progress on the issue that she puts to me on behalf of her constituent.

I hope that Ms White and her colleagues will understand that clinical priority is being attached to trying to save lives in the circumstances that we face. In that respect, progress has been made on cancer waiting times, but I know that that will be cold comfort to the constituent whose case Tess White fairly puts to me.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

Given the story that we have just heard, and the fact that, since 2020, no data has been published on breast reconstruction waiting times following mastectomy, will the First Minister commit today to ensuring publication of good-quality data on such waits as soon as possible, so that we can properly see the relevant trends?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

We are exploring issues on the quality of the data that we could publish. I say to Carole Mochan that I will take her question away and determine what information can be published. She will understand that I am explaining the problem. I do not have a solution to it today, because of the clinical priority that has been attached to treating cancer. I am very happy for us to be open about the challenges that we face, but we must do so on the basis of good-quality information. I will do what I can to address the point that she puts to me.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to reported concerns that the United Kingdom Labour Administration has not affirmed the commitment, which was signed in March 2021 by the UK and Scottish Governments under the Borderlands growth deal, to allocate £5 million towards a feasibility study to extend the Borders railway to Carlisle. (S6F-03457)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

We recognise that extending the Borders railway to Carlisle is a regional priority. The Borderlands deal includes a commitment of up to £5 million each from the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments to develop a shared understanding of the benefits and challenges of extending the line. We recently advised Scottish Borders Council that we are content with its proposal to recruit a project manager to lead that work. The release of our funding is, however, contingent on the UK Government approving its share of project costs, as the growth deal is a partnership programme and the project will deliver a cross-border assessment.

I encourage UK Government ministers to reaffirm their commitment as soon as possible.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I note that the position is that the incoming Labour Government has apparently not reaffirmed its 50 per cent share of funding. Thankfully, Scottish Borders Council has agreed to progress with the appointment of a senior project manager to lead the delivery of the business case and feasibility work for the extension of the very successful Borders railway beyond Tweedbank to Carlisle, using the 50 per cent funding commitment that was announced by the Scottish Government in June this year—I note the caveat that the First Minister gave in that regard—in advance of receiving full approval to proceed from the UK Government.

Is it not of concern that Labour may be short changing Scotland in this very modest investment, which could have a positive impact on communities, particularly across Midlothian and the Borders?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Christine Grahame puts a case to me in relation to the Borders, but I am aware of a number of cases in which questions have been raised and pauses announced around funding that we and local partnerships believed had been agreed under the city and growth deals that were negotiated in the past. Those funds are being paused essentially for review during the spending review period. I understand, from the information that has been made available to me, that some of that will not be clarified in the budget at the end of October but may have to wait for the spending review that comes in the spring. Obviously, that causes a significant delay to some of the projects that we would ideally wish to take forward and which communities are expecting.

I assure Christine Grahame that those issues are the subject of active discussion and dialogue with the UK Government, and we will continue to engage in that.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

I thank Christine Grahame for bringing up this important issue. Thankfully, passenger numbers on the Tweedbank line have returned to pre-pandemic levels, but people in Hawick and Newcastleton feel left out by the issues with the connectivity to their areas.

The Conservative Government pioneered the Borderlands growth deal, which we all welcomed. When does the First Minister plan to meet the Labour minister, Lord Hendy, to discuss that very important issue and to reiterate the benefits of the Borderlands growth deal and the extension to Carlisle?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am glad to hear the enthusiasm of Rachael Hamilton and the Conservatives for the Borders railway, because I have been around here for so long that I remember that that was not always the case when the proposal was going through the Parliament. However, we will all move on.

I am delighted that the Conservatives value the Borders railway. I think that it is super and that the level of passenger numbers that has been achieved is tremendous. I know that there is quite often quite a lot of congestion on the Borders railway, and we are doing our best to address that. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport takes forward all those issues with her counterparts in the UK Government. She was actively involved in discussions on those questions just last week with the UK Government, and that approach will be maintained.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The Borders railway was, of course, the longest new railway to be built in the UK for more than 100 years.

On cross-border rail travel, will the First Minister acknowledge the recent announcement this week that the Labour Government is looking to extend HS2 into London but has no plans to do what was originally intended and bring it into Scotland, even though the project has cost billions of pounds more than it was meant to cost, and may cost more than £100 billion? The wastage is enormous, and yet there is no commitment to Scotland. Will the First Minister raise that with the UK Government?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am interested—

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

First Minister, if I may. It is important that supplementary questions refer to the substantive question in the Business Bulletin . Therefore, we will move to constituency and general supplementary questions.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

Today, the Financial Times reported that the United Kingdom’s productivity is at its lowest level since 1850. It has also been reported that UK Government ministers have been asked to model cuts to their capital expenditure plans of up to 10 per cent. Does the First Minister share my concern about the impact that that will have on both Scotland’s economic prospects and its public finances? Will he continue to press the UK Labour Government to reassess that and to plan for growth, not austerity?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Michelle Thomson puts a very fair point to me. We have had 14 years of the austerity experiment, and it has been a complete disaster. Our public services are under acute pressure and productivity in the economy has not strengthened because we have not had the sustained investment that is required.

The Scottish Government’s capital budget is facing a cut of about 9 per cent, and we are experiencing increases in costs because of multiple factors with construction cost inflation, which in some circumstances exceeds 35 per cent of costs. Those are the realities and they require investment in our economy.

In light of the question from Michelle Thomson, I would appeal to the United Kingdom Government to use the budget on 30 October to end austerity and to start investing in the economy. That is what we need in order to fuel growth. Austerity has failed, and Labour will fail Scotland if it does not end austerity.

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Parents and pupils across Perth and Kinross are deeply concerned at the threat from Unison to strike for two weeks from 21 October, closing schools at the end of the local autumn holiday for a further fortnight. That action is being deliberately targeted at the First Minister’s constituency, and it will impact on young people, many of whom have already had their schooling disrupted by Covid.

Unison claims that it simply wants the same pay rises that other public sector workers have already been awarded, but school pupils are caught in the crossfire. What is the Scottish Government doing to try and avoid that damaging action proceeding?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Mr Fraser will not be surprised to know that I take the issue deadly seriously, as a parent of a school pupil in Perth and Kinross who stands to be affected and as the representative of 64,000 people in my constituency whose families stand to be affected.

Let me be absolutely clear with Parliament: I think that there is absolutely no justification for singling out and targeting my constituents just because I am the First Minister of Scotland. The Government is not even the employer here. A pay deal has been offered by local government—by the employers—which has been accepted by two out of the three trade unions. The two requests that were made for an offer to be made that was in excess of, or comparable to, the offer made to local government workers in England and Wales were fulfilled by the local government offer. A second test was that there had to be progress towards £15 an hour and the protection of low-paid workers, and that was fulfilled by the response of local authorities. For that offer to be accepted by two unions and rejected by a third, and for my constituents to be singled out for this treatment just because their MSP happens to be the First Minister, is absolutely unacceptable.

I hope that there can be some dialogue with the local authority employers to bring the situation to a conclusion. The Government has put additional money into the financing of the offer. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government has had to come to the Parliament to make £500 million of spending cuts to make the investment, and there is no more Government money available. Members of Parliament know the limitations of the public finances.

I appeal for the issue to be resolved speedily through dialogue between Unison and the local authority employers, where the proper dialogue should be undertaken, and for my constituents’ education not to be disrupted any further just because their MSP happens to be the First Minister.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

On Tuesday, CalMac Ferries announced that the return of Arran’s resident ferry, the MV Caledonian Isles, was to be delayed again. Since it was taken out of service for its annual overhaul in January, the timescale for the vessel’s return has gone from early March to June, to August, to September, to October and to mid-November. That has greatly impacted Arran’s long-suffering people, businesses and visitors.

With no obvious progress as yet on the redevelopment of Ardrossan harbour, how will the Scottish Government and its agencies ensure that the ferry service to Arran—which is the busiest in the network—is reliable, robust and resilient, and one that islanders and visitors can have confidence in?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I accept the points that Mr Gibson has made on behalf of his constituents in Arran. The position with the MV Caledonian Isles has been difficult. We thought that the vessel would come back into service several weeks ago—indeed, it returned from significant repairs in Birkenhead and we expected it to go back into service—but the issue that Mr Gibson raises has caused a delay to that.

The Cabinet Secretary for Transport is in active dialogue with CalMac to ensure that there is continuity of service. There has been extensive, protracted and very difficult dialogue about Ardrossan harbour—given the close attention that Mr Gibson has paid to the issue, he will know how difficult it has been. No lack of effort has been put into the dialogue—we have just not managed to reach agreement. We have managed to sustain a two-vessel service on the Ardrossan and Troon to Brodick routes over the period, and CalMac will endeavour to ensure that that remains the case in order to service Mr Gibson’s constituents. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport will keep him updated on developments.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

I declare an interest as a practising national health service general practitioner. The Drumchapel health centre in my region of Glasgow houses five GP practices and serves one of the most deprived areas of Scotland. The population is rapidly increasing. Many patients have complex and multifaceted health issues, and many do not speak English. There is not enough room for core GP staff. The centre is unfit for purpose, which results in longer waits and widening inequalities. The staff I met are desperate for help, as the centre has been consistently overlooked for an upgrade. Will the First Minister agree to accompany me on a visit to the centre to see how badly the people of Drumchapel are being let down?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I recognise the importance of access to GP services. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be engaging on questions about improvements that can be delivered to the capital estate. I am sure that he will be happy to engage with Dr Gulhane on that question and ensure that the issues that he has put to me can be factored into the Government’s capital planning.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The first stage of hearings in the public inquiry into the death of Sheku Bayoh has concluded. Sheku Bayoh’s family, who have shown grace and dignity over the long nine years since he died, are calling for the scope of the inquiry to be widened to include the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service’s decision not to prosecute. Lord Bracadale, the chair of the inquiry, has urged the Scottish Government to make a decision on the matter as soon as possible, but the family has already waited five weeks on what is a matter of urgency. When will the Scottish Government reach a decision, and does the First Minister recognise the family’s pleas so that they can have closure?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I recognise the family’s desire for closure on the issue, and the Government established the public inquiry to enable that to be the case. The Deputy First Minister is fulfilling her statutory duties, which require her to consult extensively on any question of the terms of reference being revised. That work is under way, and a decision will be taken as soon as possible.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

The First Minister will be aware of recent reports that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is in a “deadly spiral of decline” that might lead to a loss of life. What is his response to those reports, and will he endeavour to outline how the SFRS and the Fire Brigades Union can transform the service and make it fit for the future?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service continues to deliver a high standard of service in order to meet its commitment to keep people in Scotland safe.

In this financial year, there was an overall increase of £29.3 million to SFRS’s budget, which is a substantial increase. The budget is now £79 million higher than it was in 2017-18. I do not agree with Maggie Chapman’s characterisation of the service. It has attracted investment, and it continues to perform well and to deliver safety and security to the population.

Where I do agree with Maggie Chapman is in relation to the pressure on public finances, which comes from the austerity agenda. I hope that the austerity agenda will come to an end, because, as the member knows, we have to live within the resources that are available to us. However, we should have confidence in a fire service that has more firefighters per head of population than any other in the United Kingdom, and that is well supported by the Government’s financial commitments.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Despite plenty of warm words from the new United Kingdom Labour Government, it has, much like its Tory predecessor, snubbed Scotland once again and declined to invest in the Acorn project on carbon capture. Does the First Minister share my concern about the UK Government’s continued failure to understand the energy sector in the north-east? Will he call on Keir Starmer to rethink and invest in Scotland’s just transition?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Acorn project and the Scottish cluster, which Kevin Stewart highlights to me, are vital for our just transition to net zero. The project is a significant strategic investment for Scotland and, I would add, for the United Kingdom. Therefore, I am very surprised that more progress has not been made on the Acorn project, when confirmation has been given for two projects south of the border and given how critical it is to our prospects.

As Parliament knows, I feel fundamentally misled on the project by the previous United Kingdom Government. I want to see urgent progress on it, and it is one of the issues that I will pursue in my discussions with the Prime Minister when I see him tomorrow.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

That concludes First Minister’s question time.

Challenge Poverty Week 2024

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-14683, in the name of Paul O’Kane, on challenge poverty week 2024. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament recognises Challenge Poverty Week 2024, which is coordinated by the Poverty Alliance, Scotland’s anti-poverty network, and runs from 7 to 13 October; notes that activities, events and actions will take place across Scotland, including in the West Scotland region, which will be aimed at increasing public support for tackling poverty and highlighting the realities of, and solutions to, poverty; acknowledges that Challenge Poverty Week 2023 was the biggest yet, with over 500 organisations taking part; notes that the week emphasises the need for fair funding for the third sector and the importance of a number of key policy asks, including across housing, transport, adequate incomes and food, to help unlock people from the grip of poverty; understands that 21% of people, and 24% of children, are living in the grip of poverty; notes the view that governments, elected members, civil society and communities all have a role to play in solving poverty; is concerned that particular groups of people, including women, lone parents, disabled people and people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds, are disproportionately experiencing poverty; considers that people in Scotland believe in compassion, justice and ending poverty; celebrates the work undertaken by organisations and communities across Scotland to stem what it sees as the rising tide of poverty, and notes the calls for MSPs to attend and support events and activities in their constituencies and regions as part of what it believes is this important campaign.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

I am pleased to bring to the chamber this debate to mark challenge poverty week 2024, and I thank members of all parties who signed the motion to allow the debate to take place. It is an important symbol of the cross-party consensus that really ought to govern how we debate in Parliament issues with regard to tackling poverty in all its forms. Although we will disagree on policy, it is important that Parliament is united in debating these issues, because we know that poverty in Scotland remains unacceptably high. The “Poverty in Scotland 2024” report from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation highlights that very deep poverty in Scotland is up to 40 per cent, having surged since the mid-1990s, and that 240,000 children still languish in poverty; rates of child poverty remain static, as so much research has now demonstrated.

There is much work to be done across all spheres of Government, in the Parliament and in the Scottish Government, but I also recognise the role of the United Kingdom Government and of local government in that work. In a previous debate this week, I said that it was important that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice both launched the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report together on Monday, and responded together, thinking about how they could embark on a new partnership for how we tackle poverty.

I do not want to relitigate too heavily the politics of the issue, some of which we have heard about this week, but I hope that the debate ends up being the discussion that we should have had in Government time earlier in the week, which the Government chose not to have. It is important that, in challenge poverty week, we show our respect to the third sector organisations and anti-poverty campaigners that put in so much to this week and all year round to ensure that the issues are at the forefront of our agenda in Parliament.

This week provides a vital point in the year when civil society can come together and showcase what is happening out there and the best practice across Scotland. It is important to mention the work of the Poverty Alliance, which has co-ordinated challenge poverty week each year since 2013. Bringing together all groups and projects is no small task, especially on top of all the other work that the organisation does year round. I am pleased that we are joined in the gallery today by representatives of the Poverty Alliance, and I am sure that we are all very grateful for the work that it does and for the briefing that it provided to all members.

There is much work to do and many areas in which we need different interventions. As I said, all spheres of government must take tailored approaches to ensure that we reach everyone, no matter their background. That is evident from the themes that have been highlighted each day of this important week.

We could look at the issue of housing. We have many debates in the chamber about housing, and we have had some recently. The effects of inadequate and unaffordable housing on poverty rates are significant, and we need to understand how the housing emergency affects different groups. That is why I welcome Shelter Scotland and Engender’s research, published this week, which shows the disproportionate effects that are felt by women and the need for a gendered response to the housing emergency.

On transport, we need to support people to access their places of work, business and services and their support network. It is concerning to see the end of the off-peak rail fares pilot, which increases the costs to working people who commute to work. The distance covered by local bus services has fallen by 15 per cent since 2011-12, and the number of passenger journeys has fallen by 52 per cent since 2007-08. There is much more that we need to do in this place and across our local authorities to support and empower people to use public transport.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

My friend is making a powerful speech, highlighting that poor mental health—it is world mental health day today—is a critical factor and is driven by the symptoms of poverty. In particular, people seeking asylum in Scotland are being denied free bus travel. That has had a huge effect on their mental health and is particularly egregious. Does Paul O’Kane agree that, if we are to deal with poor mental health in this country, we need to solve the scourge of poverty in every possible way?

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

I thank my friend for his intervention; he makes an important point. As we discuss these thematic issues, it is clear to me that poor health, particularly poor mental health, can be a result of poverty and that poverty can be a social determinant of health. We need to deal with that in a very serious way. It is important that we put that on the record today and think about what our interventions can be in that space. I also thank Paul Sweeney for the work that he does in that regard and for the work that he has done on free travel for asylum seekers, who are some of the poorest individuals in our society.

Adequate income is an important theme of this week. In-work poverty is at record levels, and we need to look at the level of income that working people receive to make sure that it meets their needs. I point to the work of Close the Gap, representatives of which I and my Scottish Labour colleagues met yesterday, along with other members of the End Child Poverty coalition. Close the Gap has highlighted that inadequate income for women and the gender pay gap are directly tied to child poverty. That is why I welcome the work that the UK Government is doing to introduce the new deal for working people, which will begin to tackle the insecurity, instability and low pay in work that add to poverty.

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

I am listening carefully to what Paul O’Kane is saying. He mentions child poverty. He knows where I am going here—the issue of the two-child benefit cap. Will he join me in calling on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to review that in the upcoming budget?

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

Ms Haughey and I have debated these issues many times, and she knows that I am committed to a review of universal credit that includes the two-child limit. That work has been set in the context of the child poverty task force, which the UK Government is taking forward. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions began that work along with the Secretary of State for Education, Bridget Phillipson. The work is important, because—as I have said many times in the chamber—universal credit does not work. All parts of it need to be reviewed, and a considered piece of work must be done to review those issues in relation to reducing child poverty.

I want to touch briefly on the work that is being done on food insecurity, across this week and more broadly by organisations. We all know that it is a travesty that food banks are necessary in modern-day Scotland and we all want to work for a society in which nobody needs to rely on them. However, they demonstrate the best of people in our communities, who want to throw their arms around those who are most in need.

I take this opportunity to highlight the many community groups in my region that run food banks, food pantries and food security projects. They do admirable work. It is not only about the provision of food but about taking a holistic view of how to support people who most need it. Often, that approach can support people with their mental health and with what is going on in their life. I point to the work of Morton in the Community, which is the charitable arm of Greenock Morton FC, and which hosts collections for Inverclyde food bank and offers a range of services at the club to support people.

I am conscious of time. I finish by mentioning one further thing that has been highlighted this week, which is sustainable funding for the third sector. All these projects are vitally important, but organisations cannot continue to do that work without sustainable and fair funding. I know that the minister and the Government have heard me speak about that, and it is very important that we reflect on it today. I hope that the minister will be able to cover that in summing up.

I am grateful for the debate, and I hope that it is constructive.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

I advise members that, because we have a 2 o’clock start for the afternoon’s business, we must stick to time. Otherwise, it is not fair to the parliamentary staff who are required to clear the chamber before we resume our business. I ask members to stick to their allotted time, which is up to four minutes.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

I am grateful to Paul O’Kane for securing today’s debate. I acknowledge the efforts of the Poverty Alliance and the wider third sector, not just in co-ordinating challenge poverty week but in challenging poverty day in, day out. I will focus most of my remarks on areas of consensus across the chamber, based on the challenge poverty week themes.

We are all agreed that there are challenges with housing supply. Parliament has declared a housing emergency across Scotland, and my local council has declared one in South Lanarkshire. Equally, there is a housing emergency in England and Wales. I therefore welcome the First Minister’s announcement of nearly £600 million for social and affordable housing this year, which will build on the Scottish National Party Government’s delivery of nearly 135,000 such homes, including around 5,400 in South Lanarkshire.

In the spirit of consensus, I encourage Labour colleagues to ensure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s first budget tackles the housing emergency. Rachel Reeves must reverse the £1.3 billion cut to Scotland’s capital budget in order to unlock money for house building, and she must uprate local housing allowance to help low-income households that are struggling with rent.

On transport, because of the Scottish Government’s expansion of concessionary bus travel to under-22s, more than 2 million people in Scotland, including older and disabled people, can now travel for free by bus. There is agreement across the chamber about improving our bus system, and the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 gives local authorities the power to run local bus services to fit local needs. I also welcome the Scottish Government’s work on integrating different transport methods. In East Kilbride, parts of the town, including the village of Stewartfield, do not have adequate bus services and many people need to drive or take a bus to use the train. An integrated ticket system and improved bus service would help people to leave the car at home and, importantly, tackle the effects of poverty.

On adequate incomes, the Scottish Government established an expert group, including representatives from all five parties, to consider a minimum income guarantee. I look forward to reading its final report when it is published soon.

With the limited powers of devolution, the SNP Government has built a new social security system in Scotland that is based on the principles of fairness, dignity and respect. That system delivers 15 benefits, seven of which are unique to Scotland. From the game-changing Scottish child payment to the adult disability payment, we are supporting around 1.2 million people and tackling poverty. The carer support payment is financially supporting unpaid carers, and the carers allowance supplement tops up their incomes beyond the United Kingdom system.

I would like to say much more, but I need to conclude. Since it was reconvened 25 years ago, the Parliament has made great strides in challenging and tackling poverty.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

Will the member take an intervention?

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The member is about to conclude, I hope.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

With policies such as free personal care for everyone who needs it, concessionary bus travel for people young and old, and the Scottish child payment, which is estimated to be keeping 60,000 kids out of poverty this year, the Parliament is delivering measures that benefit all our citizens and tackle inequality.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Could you please bring your remarks to a close, Ms Stevenson?

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

As we reflect on this challenge poverty week, I hope that we can build on those steps and work together to eradicate the scourge of poverty on our society.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

I thank my friend Paul O’Kane for securing this members’ business debate. It is encouraging to have the Parliament engage in not one, but two debates this year regarding challenge poverty week. It is important that we as MSPs always remember that we are here to serve the whole of Scotland, with special regard for the most vulnerable among our citizens. Whatever decisions are made in this building, we must always think first and foremost of how they will affect them. In that spirit, I do not think that it will surprise anyone to hear that I want to spend my time highlighting the continued difficulties of disabled people in Scotland.

Some might say that the debate is not about a disability issue and that we should focus solely on the core issue of poverty. To those people, I say that we cannot truly challenge poverty without confronting the frankly disturbing figures that describe the dire straits in which disabled people find themselves.

Only around 50 per cent of registered working-age disabled people are in employment, compared to more than 80 per cent of their non-disabled counterparts, and 25 per cent of individuals in families with at least one disabled member live in income poverty, compared to 16 per cent of individuals in households with no disabled member. According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s 2023 data, 23 per cent of families with a disabled member are behind on at least one bill and 30 per cent have no savings to fall back on.

There can be no argument that disabled people are being left behind. That is not a political point; it is a recognition of the reality in which we find ourselves today. Scotland in the 21st century is not a place that allows all disabled people to thrive. What will we do about it? This is challenge poverty week, after all. How will we challenge disabled poverty?

The simplest way to begin to address the source is to listen to disabled people. We must give them a strong voice. I would be willing to bet that many of my colleagues across the chamber and across all levels of Government were not aware of some of the staggering figures that I read out. That is not because they do not care, but because disabled people do not have the time, energy or resources to make their voices heard.

Before the end of this year, the Scottish Parliament will probably be asked to vote on a proposal to give disabled people a champion who can speak on their behalf. A lot of noise has been made about crowded landscapes and the fact that organisations already exist that should be providing that voice. However, the reality is that they are not. The Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland—all of them—are clearly not picking up the slack.

If the Parliament does not support that proposal, then we will be asking disabled people to trust that the institutions that have let them down time and again will, all of a sudden, change. However, if they have not done so before, why should we believe that they will in the future?

If we really want to challenge poverty—if we really want to challenge disabled poverty—we will vote to give disabled people that voice. We will vote for a disability commissioner. Forget the politics—let us do the right thing.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

I thank Paul O’Kane for securing this debate in such a significant and important week. I thank the many organisations across Scotland, especially the Poverty Alliance, which we have heard is here today, for such a successful challenge poverty week 2024, for getting organisations across Scotland to focus efforts and increase public support for tackling poverty, and for highlighting the realities of and solutions to it.

People have come together in communities, organisations, schools and even in this Parliament to rise against poverty, discuss the solutions to it and support people living with it. Right now, in Scotland, more than 1 million people live in poverty—one in four of those is a child. In some areas of Glasgow, the region that I represent, more than half of children are living in poverty.

We know that poverty disproportionately impacts certain groups the hardest. I echo much of what my colleagues Jeremy Balfour and Paul O’Kane have said on that matter. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report found that children and working-age adults in a family where someone is disabled were three times as likely to experience low income. The Educational Institute of Scotland’s recent report, “Standing Up to Poverty”, states that

“children who live alongside 3 or more other children in the household, those with a disabled household member, minority ethnic households, and single parent households are all at ... greater risk”.

Also, as Close the Gap reminded us ahead of the debate, women are more likely to be in poverty than men, more likely to experience in-work poverty than men and more likely to experience persistent poverty than men.

Poverty is a scandal. It widens inequality and it holds people back. We cannot and must not tolerate that, because there should be no class, glass or step ceiling in the way of opportunity. The problems that are put in the way are great. The scale of the challenge is extreme, so the scale of action must match it. We need action on housing, including on the affordable housing supply programme, to ensure that people, including children, live in safe, secure and permanent homes. That is why many organisations are disappointed that the housing budget was cut and have urged the Government to respond to the housing emergency swiftly and with a resourced plan.

We need action to support the families who need it the most by meeting the costs that they face, including fuel and travel costs. On travel costs, I echo my colleagues Paul O’Kane and Paul Sweeney in their call for the Government to look at the issues of peak fares and travel for asylum seekers. We need to reduce costs for disabled people, including by ending care charges, which I am disappointed to say still exist, despite the Government saying that it would scrap them.

Access to food is also crucial, so free school meals for all pupils is key. I hope that the Government will listen to Parliament and others and consider fulfilling the promise that it made in that regard, because the Child Poverty Action Group has found that 20 per cent of children in poverty in Scotland are missing out on free school meals.

Where actions in those areas fall short, third sector organisations step in. That is why fair funding for the third sector, which has been highlighted this week, is key. The issue is about not only overall resource, but how the Government offers and handles that funding. In particular, all late decisions and in-year movements are unsettling. For many people in insecure roles, that affects morale, retention and delivery of critical front-line services. Despite that, people who work in the third sector work tirelessly and passionately to improve lives every day.

Ahead of this week, organisations have set out what they want policy makers to do, or at least to consider. There is a range of asks to unlock people from the grip of poverty, and it covers a wide spectrum, including housing, transport, adequate incomes, food costs of the school day and even the unequal distribution of pay and work.

We on the Labour benches know that there is no silver bullet, but also that doing nothing must not be an option. That is why my party is working in government to take action to tackle poverty at its roots with the new deal for working people, with Great British energy bringing well-paid jobs to Scotland and bringing down bills, and with ending tax breaks for private schools, so that we have more money for state schools—

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Ms Duncan-Glancy, you must conclude, please.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

Those are just some examples of what we can do to end poverty in Scotland.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I thank Paul O’Kane for his motion and for securing this important debate during challenge poverty week. I am grateful, too, for briefings from third sector organisations for this debate and the Scottish Government one on Tuesday, and I am grateful for all the work of the Poverty Alliance and its members in organising this annual series of events and projects and in advocating for urgent and vital policies to address both the causes and symptoms of poverty.

The North East Scotland region, which I represent, spans a wide spectrum in terms of poverty statistics. Of all Scottish local authorities, Dundee City Council has the fifth highest percentage of data zones that are in the 20 per cent most deprived in Scotland, while Aberdeenshire is towards the other end of the scale. More than 28 per cent of children in Dundee live in poverty, as do nearly 25 per cent of those in Angus, whereas the figure in Aberdeen City is approaching 22 per cent, and in Aberdeenshire it is less than 17 per cent. All those figures are too high.

People experience poverty in different ways and, in many ways, being poor in a relatively prosperous rural area can be more difficult and isolating than if one is sharing that common experience with a greater number of neighbours. The Poverty Alliance network includes organisations that support and represent people in poverty across Scotland, in cities, towns and rural areas. Their actions and work are truly valued.

Just as poverty takes different forms in different places, people with particular characteristics or identities might be, through structural oppression and prejudice, made more likely to experience poverty. Some of the most acute forms of poverty and destitution are imposed on migrants, including those seeking asylum, who are neither permitted to work freely nor entitled to receive social security payments. The Grampian Regional Equality Council, which is based in Aberdeen, has carried out a successful project on no recourse to public funds to raise awareness of that situation, share experiences and work with others in the No Recourse North East Partnership to mitigate its worst impacts.

Meanwhile, in Dundee, many community organisations are working to help local people and families to cope with the effects of food and energy inflation. One such is Hilltown Community Larder, which, for a small payment, provides a range of groceries to members as well as offering signposting to other support services.

In Dundee, yesterday, as part of challenge poverty week, Circle Scotland CIC’s mobility hire service, Dundee Citizens Advice Bureau, Hillcrest housing association, Dundee International Women’s Centre, Stobswell Forum and Dundee Carers Centre came together at the Boomerang Community Centre. Together with council staff, they spoke about the impacts of fuel poverty and other forms of on-going poverty in the city, providing advice to those affected and raising wider awareness of the gravity of these issues. In Angus, Home Energy Scotland is offering free advice on energy saving in its get ready for winter events—one was held yesterday in Arbroath and there is another tomorrow in Forfar. All those groups, people and communities are coming together and helping one another.

Scotland is so rich in community and third sector organisations, large and small, depending largely on volunteers who give their time and energy with care, compassion and a deep-seated sense of justice and solidarity. They also share common concerns and anxieties about the financial sustainability of their work. Without secure multiyear funding, essential services are thrown into turmoil, with organisations unable to make decisions about staffing, premises and the projects on which vulnerable people rely.

As I said in my speech in Tuesday’s debate, challenging poverty means recognising its realities, mitigating its effects and making structural changes to transform the way in which our society works. All those tasks involve the dedicated work of third sector organisations, and none would be possible without them. Those organisations deserve not only our thanks and commendation, but financial certainty, security and respect.

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I am pleased to contribute to Paul O’Kane’s members’ business debate to highlight the importance of challenge poverty week 2024. I will use my time to raise an important issue that I have been looking into for quite some time. It relates to Paul O’Kane’s opening speech, in which he mentioned the importance of food provision.

When I was the Conservative spokesperson for children and young people, I visited a Stirling food bank after I was contacted by an individual who wanted to help families with babies but had come across a huge barrier to supplying baby milk to families in need. Milk is, of course, essential for the first stages of an infant’s life and, if the mother is unable to breastfeed, they rely solely on baby milk formula. The nutrients that are contained in the milk are vital for a baby’s healthy growth and development. However, keeping up with the cost of bottles and tins can leave many mothers who are struggling financially in a worrying situation. To put that into context, it can cost up to £18 per 800g for baby formula powder. I know from when my baby, Charlotte, was growing up that that can involve a lot of tins over a very short period of time.

At present, food banks are not permitted to accept or distribute infant formula donations. Although I fully accept that that guidance comes from UNICEF rather than the Scottish Government or the UK Government, it makes no sense to me whatsoever to deny a family that vital product, which they might need to help to provide for their child.

Local authorities, health boards and public health teams play an important role in identifying families and meeting their needs with regard to infant formula through wraparound care. However, for quite some time, I have been concerned about families falling through gaps in the system. Some families will go to a food bank when they hit crisis point, instead of following the direct services route that I mentioned.

UNICEF suggests that food banks should contact health visiting services, public health teams, local authorities or health boards to agree on a referral strategy for families who are in crisis and need support. However, that can be a very long process involving layers of bureaucracy. Families who need to feed their babies need that help directly. They simply cannot wait to go through the various layers of the system.

The healthy start scheme is another route, but it is not immediate, and not all families are eligible to use it.

I understand the risks of food banks handing out baby milk, but I also understand the risks of buying baby milk from a supermarket. In my view, those risks are exactly the same. There must be a way round the issue. A supermarket in Buxton was able to support a local paper’s campaign to support the High Peak Baby Bank, which led to people being able to donate items from supermarkets, including formula, wipes and food.

However, the guidance must be clearer. In my view, it is simply common sense to ensure that families are able to access baby milk formula if they need to. I would welcome the opportunity to speak to the minister at a future point to talk about how we can engage with UNICEF directly to see whether there is any way of overcoming such barriers for charities and organisations that do a wonderful job to help families in need.

This is challenge poverty week. I hope that there will come a day when families do not need to rely on food banks, but until we tackle the root causes of poverty, we must ensure that such vital items are available to support families with babies. I fully believe that every child deserves the best possible start in life. One way in which we can improve the health and wellbeing of babies in Scotland is by looking at whether baby milk can be supplied through food banks. I urge the Scottish Government to do that. I am more than happy to work with the Government on the matter so that a commonsense approach can be adopted to tackling poverty in Scotland.

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

I welcome Paul O’Kane’s members’ business debate on challenge poverty week, which follows on from the Scottish Government’s significant debate on the issue that was held on Tuesday. I thank all the anti-poverty organisations that have provided briefings for the debate.

Poverty can often be hidden behind closed doors or masked by pride, but it is a persistent and systemic issue. Unfortunately, it can involve parents and elderly people choosing between heating and eating, which is not a choice that any of us, as parliamentarians, face. Therefore, it is up to us to push for the change that we need.

Tackling child poverty is one of the SNP Government’s biggest priorities, and it is one that we remain firmly focused on. We prioritise those who are most in need through a range of policies, including the Scottish child payment, which, as the Poverty and Inequality Commission noted, has been described as a “game changer” and is one of the main contributors to progress in reducing child poverty at the national level.

When I spoke in last year’s debate on this topic, I listed the many organisations in my community that challenge poverty not just for one week but for 365 days of the year. That remains true today. There are simply so many that I cannot name them all, but it is important to me to put on record my thanks to Golden Friendships, Old Kilpatrick Food Parcels, Faifley food share, East Dunbartonshire Foodbank, Dalmuir Barclay church community pantry, West Dunbartonshire Community Foodshare, the Recycle Room, East Dunbartonshire Citizens Advice Bureau, Improving Lives, West Dunbartonshire Citizens Advice Bureau, Clydebank group holidays, advice staff in East and West Dunbartonshire Councils, Clydebank Asbestos Group and so many more.

Every day, those organisations are saving lives. Every day, they show kindness, warmth and dedication to serving those most in need and, in turn, make our communities better places. I look forward to seeing all those wonderful organisations at my cost of living event next month—an event to which they all come, ready to help our communities.

The fact that such groups must exist in this day and age is appalling, and the UK welfare regime that fuels their existence needs a radical overhaul to make it fit for purpose. So far, unfortunately, there has just been more of the same. Indeed, for many pensioners, things are now getting even worse.

There has been no movement on child poverty, either. Despite good efforts by the previous Labour Government, Labour has now become the party of child poverty. I am thinking of the two-child policy and the abhorrent rape clause. The fact is that Labour has not just kept children in poverty but actively dragged them into it, because, as a new report from CPAG has stated, every day that the two-child policy remains in place, 109 children are pulled into poverty. CPAG has made it clear that

“Scrapping”

the two-child limit

“is the most cost-effective way to stop more kids being pulled into poverty on the”

UK

“government’s watch”.

Labour MSPs should demand that it be scrapped in the budget, and I hope that they do, but so far this week they have failed to do so. I give credit where credit is due, though, and commend Richard Leonard and Alex Rowley for their actions. It was good to see that.

It is very telling that the SNP has done more than today’s new Labour Party to keep in place a Gordon Brown policy to keep pensioners warm this winter. Unfortunately, real change is not coming, and it looks like—

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

Will the member give way?

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Marie McNair will be concluding quite soon.

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

I generally would take an intervention—I would really like to hear what the member has to say—but I need to keep going.

Unfortunately, real change is not coming. To adapt a previous slogan from new Labour, it looks like things can only get worse.

The powers of independence will let us leave this tragedy behind. With the powers of independence, we can truly challenge poverty. Only with control over our own affairs can we do that and truly achieve a more equal and poverty-free Scotland.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Thank you, Ms McNair. I now call on the Minister for Equalities, Kaukab Stewart, to respond to the debate.

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

I thank Paul O’Kane for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I thank members for their speeches and I will try to respond to as many of them as possible.

Listening to what has been said today and reflecting on the many activities that are happening this week reinforces for me the point that Paul O’Kane made that tackling poverty is a collective effort and a national mission. I, too, am grateful to the hundreds of third sector organisations that are working tirelessly to support and advocate for those in poverty, often providing lifeline support to those who need it most.

Ending child poverty is this Government’s foremost priority, but we can achieve that only by tackling the deep-rooted causes of inequalities in our society and ensuring that every community can thrive. Despite an incredibly challenging fiscal context, we have continued to invest around £3 billion each year since 2022-23 on policies that tackle child poverty and protect people from the effects of the cost of living crisis. Those policies include the Scottish child payment, which is providing absolutely essential support in that respect. Indeed, Ruth Boyle of the Poverty Alliance, who I know is in the chamber today, told the Social Justice and Social Security Committee that the payment is having a clear impact on parents’ ability to provide the essentials that their children require. Meghan Gallacher made some very legitimate comments about food insecurities and I will consider her proposals.

Our policies include free bus travel for more than 2 million people, support for young and old people with disabilities to access essential services and live fuller lives, and helping people to keep warm in winter with guaranteed support through our winter heating payment for those on low incomes, including those on pension credit and other relevant benefits.

We are delivering support to those who need it most. Scottish Government modelling, which was published in February, estimates that this Government’s policies will keep 100,000 children out of relative poverty in 2024-25.

I will now take some time to refer to members’ speeches. I heard several calls for fairer funding for the third sector, and we are committed to developing that approach, which provides clarity and stability in order to secure the sector’s resilience and grow its capacity.

However, it is important to recognise that multiyear funding is challenging to deliver in the current context because any commitments will, inevitably, reduce flexibility in future years. Where possible, we aim to increase the number of multiyear grant offers to third sector organisations.

Housing was mentioned by Paul O’Kane, Collette Stevenson and Pam Duncan-Glancy. It is critical to tackling poverty, which is why we declared a housing emergency in May and have been working at pace since then to take urgent action. We have committed £100 million to grow investment and support the construction of around 2,800 mid-market rent homes, and we have invested £22 million in the charitable bond programme to support more than 150 new affordable homes.

Paul O’Kane’s motion mentions ethnic minorities, and we acknowledge that too many people from ethnic minority backgrounds are living in poverty. We are taking wide-ranging action to tackle the deep-rooted inequalities. That includes investing £6.3 million through our equality and human rights fund across 2021-25 to support race equality and anti-racism organisations, such as BEMIS Scotland, the Minority Ethnic Carers of People Project and Amina—the Muslim Women’s Resource Centre, to provide targeted support for ethnic minority communities, including advice, advocacy and training.

The Scottish Government also recognises the lived experience and reality of disabled people and the multiple barriers that they face, as well as the fact that real change is needed. Once again, I thank Jeremy Balfour for his articulate and impassioned work on that issue, which he raises continually, as he should.

We continue to work closely with disabled people’s organisations to develop and implement a plan that is informed by the lived experience of disabled people, and I have been attending such meetings very recently. The Government shares Jeremy Balfour’s commitment to improving outcomes, and we will carefully consider the detail of the bill that he referred to.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

Will the minister take an intervention?

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

I do not have the time to do so, unfortunately.

Being mindful of time, I would like to mention that the UK Government has a role to play in this matter. There is clear evidence that the policies of the previous UK Government, such as the two-child limit, which was mentioned by Marie McNair, are actively pushing vulnerable families into deepening poverty, and that more and more households are affected by that. Other members have mentioned the work of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.

Presiding Officer, I know that my allocated time is coming to an end. I am proud of the action that we have taken. Challenge poverty week is a powerful reminder of both the reality of poverty and the fact that it is not inevitable. By working together across all Governments and sectors and with people with lived experience, we can bring about lasting change.

Portfolio Question Time

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio question time, and today’s portfolio is education and skills. Any member who wishes to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether young people have the opportunity to study subjects that they are interested in. (S6O-03829)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Under Scotland’s curriculum, pupils should be able to have appropriate personalisation and choice during both the broad general education and the senior phase. Timetabling, staffing and resourcing issues may mean that that is not always possible. Where a subject or course cannot be offered by a school, national guidelines encourage flexibility and collaboration with other local schools or colleges or through online and digital approaches.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

The cabinet secretary will be aware of concerns dating as far back as the report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and earlier that subject choice in the senior phase has narrowed and that, most worryingly, it has done so at a faster rate in schools in deprived areas.

The cabinet secretary confirmed, in response to the Hayward review, that there would be

“a degree of rationalisation of the senior phase”,—[Official Report, 19 September 2023; c 73.]

and people have become concerned that the Government’s mistakes, which led to a narrower curriculum, could now become Government policy. What did the cabinet secretary mean by

“a degree of rationalisation of the senior phase”,

and does she plan to further narrow subject choice?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I think that the member raised that issue with me in the chamber when I spoke about the Government’s response to Professor Hayward’s review.

I know that Parliament debated the issue of narrowing subject choice during the previous parliamentary session, but subject choice has been widened under the curriculum for excellence because the broad general education means that a wider range of subjects is on offer to our young people until later in their academic life.

However, I think that there was a clash of cultures between a senior phase dictated by a final exam system and the broad general education, which is about taking broad approaches to curriculum areas. We have not managed to resolve that, which is the point that I was trying to convey in relation to Professor Hayward’s review. Rationalisation was one of the key recommendations in her response.

We know that a number of subjects that are now being delivered in the school context should perhaps be delivered elsewhere, such as in a college setting. When we talk about rationalisation, that is really about ensuring that the qualifications that are being delivered in our schools are appropriate for that environment. I hope that that gives the member some degree of comfort with the Government’s approach.

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

Will the cabinet secretary set out the breadth of subjects that currently exists in Scottish education, and will she say what impact colleges, community campuses and virtual education have had on the provision that is available to pupils?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As I suggested in my response to Pam Duncan-Glancy, the curriculum for excellence provides pupils with a broad general education across eight curricular areas. Schools and local authorities continue to improve access to different learning opportunities and to a wider range of qualifications and courses in the senior phase by having strong partnerships with colleges and community campuses, and through virtual education.

One excellent example of that collaborative approach is the delivery that we are seeing at Dunoon grammar school, which was voted the best school in the world for community collaboration and which I visited earlier this year.

In addition to funding local online learning provision, the Scottish Government funds the national e-learning offer and has increased access to digital devices. That collaborative approach to delivery has meant that, since 2014, we have seen a sizeable increase in the number of vocational qualifications.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The cabinet secretary is cautious about the recommendations of the Hayward review. What does that mean for parity of esteem between academic and vocational subjects and what is she doing now to encourage greater take-up of vocational opportunities in schools?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The member will be aware that this year’s exam results showed another substantive increase in the number of vocational and technical qualifications, which is to be welcomed. That shows the strength of the pathways that are now on offer in our schools.

That work cuts across the work on post-school educational reform that Mr Dey is leading. We want to ensure that that parity of esteem is reflected in the Government’s response to Professor Hayward’s report. Part of that is about education reform and about reforming the very bodies that I discussed with the Education, Children and Young People Committee yesterday. I look forward to working with Mr Rennie to ensure that the reform of those bodies meets the aspiration for parity of esteem.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

I apologise to you, Presiding Officer, and to members in the chamber, for being late.

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to support the university sector during the current academic year. (S6O-03830)

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Despite a challenging financial environment, we have continued to show our long-term commitment to Scotland’s universities by investing over £1 billion of teaching and research grant funding in the sector in 2024-25, having done so in each year since 2012-13. Our student support offering and policy on free tuition is supporting over 115,000 students this year, and Student Awards Agency for Scotland statistics show that the total amount of direct support to students is over £1 billion for the fifth year in a row.

Ensuring that our universities are on a sustainable trajectory is also at the heart of our on-going work and engagement with the sector to reform the wider post-school education and skills system so that the significant investment that we are making delivers the best outcomes for learners, the economy and society.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

I thank the minister, but sustainability is not really going to cut it here, because the Educational Institute of Scotland has voiced its concern over the fall in funding from the Scottish Government for Scottish university students. Funding per student is now 19 per cent lower in real terms than it was a decade ago. Savage funding cuts have caused an overreliance on international students, whose numbers are now at a record high. Although I welcome international students, they should not be used to subsidise our universities because of a lack of funding from this SNP Government. A sudden decrease in their numbers for any reason could bankrupt our universities. Meanwhile, the SNP’s cap on places for home-grown students means that Scottish students are being turned away. I am particularly concerned about medicine.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Question.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

Does the cabinet secretary consider that the overreliance on income from international students is sustainable? What consideration has he given to the far-reaching consequences of allowing our education system to be so run?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

It is nice to hear a Conservative welcoming international students, because the rhetoric of the previous UK Government was far from welcoming.

I hope that the university sector would agree that the Scottish Government is working very closely with it on a range of subjects to make it financially more sustainable. On the point about international students, we are working very closely with the sector to enhance the numbers that are coming from a variety of countries. I do not believe that international students coming here is a bad thing. I recognise the risks that the member highlights, but I say to him gently that the issue around international student numbers dropping and the concern that that has caused are directly attributable to the actions and rhetoric of the previous Westminster Government, which he supported.

I seriously hope that this represents a change of position from the Conservatives, certainly in this place, towards being more welcoming of international students and international staff, because that is where we should be as a country.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

To ask the Scottish Government what further support and guidance it can provide to secondary education establishments regarding the balancing of the right to education of both a victim of sexual assault and the alleged perpetrator. (S6O-03831)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

There is no place for harassment or abuse in any form in our schools. Where staff have reason to believe that a crime may have occurred, they should follow school child protection procedures for onward reporting to Police Scotland and social work services.

In March, with the former First Minister, I launched a new framework for preventing and responding to gender-based violence in our schools. That framework is underpinned by the principle that all children and young people have the right to education, safety and justice, and that all children, young people and staff have the right to learn and work in an environment free from violence. The framework provides guidance for schools on how to respond to and support both the child or young person who has experienced gender-based violence and the one who has allegedly carried out GBV.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

The cabinet secretary will be aware, as I am, of the research by Girlguiding Scotland and the University of Glasgow that shows that girls are too frequently experiencing inappropriate sexual behaviour or, indeed, assault. I am, of course, aware of the good work that is going on in the gender-based violence in schools working group. However, there still appears to be a need for specific consideration to ensure that victims are not isolated in learning hubs or other such places while repeat offenders can continue their school day as normal. I have had a recent case in my Falkirk East constituency addressing that specific concern.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank the member for her interest in the issue. I am aware of the research from Girlguiding Scotland, which is seriously concerning, and I am sorry to hear about the experiences of her constituent.

As the GBV guidance makes clear, the needs of the child or young person who has experienced gender-based violence should be central in determining a response to support them, and a clear plan to secure the safety of all children and young people who are involved, which includes appropriate actions, needs to be established by schools.

I acknowledge Michelle Thomson’s concern about the burden arising from any change to learning environments that follows young people being affected by sexual violence. I am, however, cognisant that schools should be given sufficient opportunity to implement the guidance—which, as I mentioned in my original answer, was published only in March.

The Government has committed to commissioning an independent review of the guidance to establish positive practices and further areas for improvement before the end of the parliamentary session, and I am happy to keep the member updated on the work of that review.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Question 4 was not lodged.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the recent report by Audit Scotland on Scotland’s colleges, which states that “colleges need more clarity from the Scottish Government on the aspects of their role to prioritise,” and that colleges are “making fundamental decisions about their future services without this clarity”. (S6O-03833)

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

The Audit Scotland report recognises that important opportunities are coming from the work that we are leading on post-school reform. As we progress that work, we are clear that the priorities for colleges include better alignment with local economic needs, close interaction with employers and being at the heart of skills planning in their regions. We are in on-going dialogue with the college sector about those priorities, including through the work of the tripartite alignment group, and we will continue to work with colleges to support them to maximise their impact on the economy and communities.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

In the north-east, Dundee and Angus College has recently launched its sunrise solutions project to embed climate awareness in its courses. Dundee can, of course, be a centre for decommissioning. North East Scotland College is due to open its energy transition skills hub, having already introduced net zero scholarships a couple of years ago. Clearly, NESCol should play a key role in the just transition.

What is the Scottish Government doing to ensure that colleges have the strategic support and resources that they need to catalyse the transformations in our economy and society that are so desperately required?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Colleges are critical to enabling a just transition to net zero, not only as centres of teaching and training but as key community anchors. Last month, during Scotland’s climate week, I visited NESCol to celebrate its contribution to the energy sector in the north-east and the rest of Scotland, and I was briefed on the energy transition skills hub, to which Maggie Chapman referred.

Like Dundee and Angus College, NESCol is well led by a principal who is absolutely dialled in to the needs of the local and wider economy—in particular, to the just transition agenda. We are committed to doing all that we can, recognising the very challenging fiscal environment in which we are operating, to assist it in that work. We are working alongside colleges and the Scottish Funding Council to provide the strategic support that the member mentioned—for example, via work that is progressing through the tripartite alignment group—to provide greater flexibility for institutions in how they use the funding that is already available and to share best practice.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Three members have requested to ask—I hope—brief supplementary questions.

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

What impact have the enormous financial pressures caused by continuing United Kingdom Government austerity had on the funding that is available to support Scotland’s college sector?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

I have noted before that colleges face budgetary challenges, and we cannot ignore the huge part that austerity has played in that. Given the very difficult financial position that the Government faces, I hope that Mr Beattie will recognise the fact that the Scottish Government’s budget for 2024-25 provides colleges with the same resources as were available in 2023-24, which is a clear demonstration of the Government’s commitment to our colleges.

As I said, we are working closely with Colleges Scotland and the Funding Council via the tripartite group to put to best use the resources that are at our disposal, in line with individual college priorities and the needs of local economies.

Of course, the unknown in all of this is whether the coming UK Government budget will present further budgetary challenges for this Government and our colleges.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Notwithstanding what we have just heard, the SFC published its final funding allocation in May 2024. We saw the axing of the flexible workforce development fund, the absence of funding to address digital poverty and the coming to an end of mental health funding. In the context of a £32 million cut to the resource budget, an underlying deficit of £70 million and four colleges having significant cash-flow issues, is the Government content for a college to fall over before it provides proper support and sustainable funding?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Through the Scottish Funding Council, the Government works incredibly closely with our colleges. When issues that are identified come to the fore, they are responded to.

I am disappointed that Liam Kerr is leaving his role as education spokesperson. I have very much enjoyed our exchanges. He has listed all the issues that colleges face, but I ask him gently where his self-awareness is in all of that. Where is the recognition that the actions of his former Government at Westminster are at the heart of the problems that we all face?

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

The minister has talked about the importance of the post-school aspect of colleges, but the cabinet secretary has just spoken about rationalisation and, rightly, mentioned the important role that colleges have in that. Can colleges prioritise their role in the senior phase? How can they do that without investment from the Scottish Government?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

The member will be aware of the school-college partnerships that can be, and are being, deployed quite effectively. He is absolutely right to highlight the prioritisation issue, which is one of the aspects that we are considering with colleges. If they choose to prioritise in that space, I want to give them the flexibility to do so.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its anti-racism in education programme. (S6O-03834)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Delivering the work of the anti-racism in education programme is a key commitment in this year’s programme for government. We are working with dedicated stakeholders that are key to driving the programme forward. I am pleased that progress continues to be made, including through the recent publication of the new anti-racism action guide, which has been developed to empower employers of teachers to better support their minority ethnic staff. There remains much to do, however, and the Scottish Government will continue to work with stakeholders to drive that important work forward.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that comprehensive response. She will be aware that we are now in black history month. Regrettably, Scotland played a leading role in the British empire, which involved the forced transportation of 3.1 million slaves from Africa to British colonies. Some of the wealthiest slave owners were Scottish—as, in fairness, were some of the leading abolitionists at the time. Does the cabinet secretary agree that, if we do not know our history, we are undoubtedly doomed to repeat it? Will she therefore provide an update on the efforts that are being made to ensure that our children are taught Scotland’s history in relation to the British empire?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I very much agree with the member’s sentiment, particularly given that it is black history month. It is important that our history and our wider social studies curriculum provide a range of opportunities to teach about the British empire, including Scotland’s role in it. We are funding professional learning programmes relating to teaching on slavery in Scotland and on immigration and empire. Our anti-racism curriculum principles explicitly address that point through the commitment that our children and young people will

“understand and enquire into Scotland’s role in historical world events”,

which is hugely important. That includes transatlantic enslavement and colonial histories and their continuing impact to this day. Education Scotland is working with local councils to support the implementation of anti-racism curriculum principles.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on whether it will review any guidance in relation to the teaching of gender identity in schools, in light of the Cass report. (S6O-03835)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The Scottish Government is committed to ensuring that the guidance remains up to date and fit for purpose. As with any significant legal or policy development, we will consider whether the guidance requires to be updated to reflect that. That will include any findings of the “Cass Review—implications for Scotland report” that are relevant to schools.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Dr Hilary Cass said that social transition

“is not a neutral act”,

but teachers with no experience in that area allow pupils to socially transition and, indeed, are encouraged to do so by the “Supporting transgender young people in schools” guidance. Is it not morally wrong to teach our children that they could be born in the wrong body and that it is possible to change one’s sex? Why, despite the Cass review’s findings, is the Scottish Government continuing to allow and encourage gender ideology in schools?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The “Cass Review—implications for Scotland” report, which was commissioned by the chief medical officer, set out the review’s recommendations, which have been accepted. They are relevant to gender identity and healthcare improvement in NHS Scotland. The report also recommends how such clinical services should be best delivered in NHS Scotland, and those recommendations are now being acted on.

However, neither the report nor the Cass review examined or considered education settings, which is an important point. The Cass review’s remit was to consider NHS England’s provision of healthcare for children and young people who seek clinical support relating to their gender identity via national health service clinical services. Such services are not provided by schools or by school staff.

I am clear that it is not the role of schools or school staff to encourage or practically support a young person with regard to their decision about their gender identity. That is a matter for the young person and their families.

In recognition of the importance of ensuring that our guidance for schools is as up to date as possible, as I indicated in my previous response, the guidance for schools will be updated to reflect any relevant changes and information relating to gender identity services in Scotland, as appropriate.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

For many young LGBTQ+ people, home is not always a safe space where they can be themselves. A trusted teacher might be the only person available for them to confide in and turn to for advice and support. In a time of rising hostility and fearmongering around the LGBTQ community—and young trans people in particular—will the cabinet secretary outline how the Scottish Government will ensure that young people who might be questioning their sexuality or gender identity are able to go to a trusted educational professional for support and information?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Emma Roddick makes a hugely important point. I am clear that it is essential that all young people are able to seek pastoral support, including advice, from school staff. I also agree that there might be an increased need for such support, given the current on-going discourse in wider society in relation to LGBT young people and their rights. The situation has become more challenging in recent years, which is exactly why it is important that young people are able to have those relationships with people in their schools.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

As has been mentioned, Dr Hilary Cass highlighted that social transitioning in classrooms was setting some children on a pathway to irreversible medical interventions. In addition, it has been widely reported that Scottish primary schools are appointing children as LGBT champions and are asking pupils as young as four whether they are transgender. Will the cabinet secretary confirm whether the Scottish Government will look into the role that taxpayer-funded organisations such as LGBT Youth Scotland play in teaching gender identity in our schools?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The issue in relation to LGBT Youth Scotland—which, I should say, is not actually funded by the education and skills portfolio—has already been discussed in the chamber in recent months. We work with a variety of third sector organisations, including LGBT Youth Scotland, to help to shape policy and practice and to improve outcomes for LGBTQ+ communities.

Funding is awarded to LGBT Youth Scotland through our equality and human rights fund. It delivers a range of projects to support young people, and we are committed to working with organisations to support young people in their education.

Going back to Emma Roddick’s point, I note that that work has become much more important at a time when there has been a rise in the number of attacks against the LGBTQ+ community. It is, of course, up to individual schools, colleges and universities to decide whether they want to adopt the LGBT Youth Scotland charter for education, and I encourage the member to visit schools in her local area to see the impact of the charter in practice.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

To ask the Scottish Government what plans there are for the future provision of Gaelic education in primary schools in the Glasgow Anniesland constituency. (S6O-03836)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The Scottish Government supports Glasgow City Council to ensure that primary Gaelic provision meets parental demand. Children in the Glasgow Anniesland constituency currently access Gaelic primary education at Sgoil Gàidhlig Ghlaschu in Finnieston, and the council is expanding primary provision across the city, with the opening of a fourth Gaelic-medium education primary school in the Calton area. Through the Scottish Languages Bill, the Scottish Government is amending the Education (Scotland) Act 2016 to enhance the parental right to ask local authorities to assess the demand for Gaelic-medium education in their communities.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

We know that the situation is all over the place at the minute, but there are reports that the United Kingdom Chancellor of the Exchequer is planning to slash capital spending budgets by as much as 10 per cent—a massive figure. That has alarmed a number of parents in my constituency who are concerned about the impact that such deep cuts would have on education, particularly in Gaelic. Will the cabinet secretary say how such proposed cuts would affect Scotland? Will she reassure my constituents of the Scottish Government’s continuing commitment to supporting education in the face of continuing Labour austerity and, in particular, to the provision and expansion of Gaelic education?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The Scottish Government recognises the importance of capital funding, which, as members will know, has contributed to the growth of Gaelic-medium education over recent years. Among other sources, such as Scottish Government funding for local authority projects and local authorities’ own allocations, the Gaelic schools capital fund has been an important source of funding for a range of projects in Gaelic-medium classes, schools and community facilities.

The Scottish Government’s Gaelic capital fund was established in 2008 and has been important for the continued growth of Gaelic education and for the language’s revitalisation. It has also provided wider benefits to Scottish society.

The fund has supported Glasgow City Council and other local authorities, and decisions on the future of the capital fund will be made later this year. However, I recognise the challenge that the member mentioned with regard to decisions that are taken elsewhere, which ultimately impact on decisions that are taken by this Government, particularly those on capital funding.

Prison Population

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The next item of business is a statement by Angela Constance on Scotland’s prison population.

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

In my previous statement on the issue to Parliament in May, I set out the challenge that we face in addressing the prison population and the need for immediate and continued action. The difficult but necessary step of emergency release over the summer had an immediate impact. The population reduced from 8,270 to just below 7,900, and the risk to the safe operation of our prisons was temporarily averted. As I highlighted in May, the impact was expected to be temporary, and that has proved to be the case. The population has continued to rise and has once again reached critical levels. As of this morning, there are 8,322 people in custody, 27 per cent of whom are on remand.

This is not just about the numbers; it is also about the complex needs of the population and the persistent pressures on prison staff. I remain grateful to Scottish Prison Service staff for their continued resilience. I have seen at first hand their excellent work to maintain positive relationships in prisons and their ability to find solutions. The latest projections through to January 2025 indicate that the prison population will likely continue to rise. Without intervention, that would take us into an unsustainable position, and we cannot and must not allow that to transpire.

Over the past decade, the average length of prison sentences has increased, and there has been a consistently high remand population. There is no single lever to address that on-going rise, so we must continue to pursue a wide range of actions. Since my previous statement, the implementation of the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Act 2024 and the transfer of all under-18s to secure care has freed up additional capacity at HMP Polmont. In addition, the Scottish Prison Service continues to maximise all available remaining capacity across the estate. Despite those efforts, those actions will only provide very short-term relief if population trends continue.

There is continued focus on optimising the use of home detention curfew. The number was reduced by emergency early release, and it is now rising again. It is currently around 107. I can confirm plans to lay regulations later this year to enable GPS technology to be used to monitor individuals being released on home detention curfew. Subject to parliamentary approval, those regulations will come into force in January 2025.

There are high levels of use of electronic monitoring. More than 2,100 people are being monitored on any given day, with electronically monitored bail now available in every local authority area. We are increasing our investment to address that significant challenge. In addition to the 10 per cent uplift in the Prison Service resource budget, we increased our funding to community justice by £14 million this year to further strengthen alternatives to custody. Building that capacity takes time, but recent statistics show a marked and sustained increase in the use of diversion from prosecution, structured deferred sentences and bail supervision. Those actions are having an impact and have reduced the growing population from where it would be without them. However, it is evident that further action is necessary across the justice system.

The independent functions of the justice system and decision making across it will always be fully respected. However, it is vital that partners collaborate to ensure that the system works effectively and in the shared understanding of the critical risk that an increasing prison population poses to the entire justice system. The Lord Advocate will update the Parliament after my statement, in her role as the independent head of the systems of criminal prosecution and the investigation of deaths. I am grateful to the Lord Advocate for her leadership and engagement on this important issue.

In my previous statement to the Parliament on the issue, I set out our intention to look at how we manage the release of long-term prisoners, and to consult on proposals for legislative change. The responses to our consultation, which sought views on bringing forward the point at which most long-term prisoners are released automatically, were thoughtful and constructive. An analysis of the responses has been published today. There is notable support for increasing the time that some long-term prisoners spend in the community under supervision as part of their sentence, and recognition of the benefits that that can bring. However, there are also concerns that changing the long-term prisoner release point at pace would present significant practical difficulties.

The need for any changes to take effect quickly prompted an exploration of alternative approaches. I noted with interest proposals from the Institute for Government in July, which included the option to change the release point for certain prisoners from the halfway point of their sentence to either 45 per cent or 40 per cent of it. The United Kingdom Government has recently implemented the latter, with a reported 1,700 released in September and more to come.

Although our justice systems are not the same, I intend to pursue a similar policy to change the point at which most short-term prisoners are released from 50 per cent of their sentence to after 40 per cent of their sentence has been served. That proposal would come with statutory exclusions in relation to domestic abuse and sexual offences, recognising the particular concerns that will arise about such offences. That will require primary legislation, which I plan to introduce in November. I will ask the Parliament’s permission to progress that on an emergency basis.

I remain committed to considering changes to the long-term prisoner release point and will seek subordinate legislation making powers in the bill that I intend to introduce to allow us to return to that issue. The immediate focus of the bill, however, will be on changing the release point for short-term prisoners. Short-term prisoners are those who are sentenced to less than four years in prison and are generally not subject to supervision on release. Therefore, that approach would result in relatively small changes to release dates, as well as avoiding some of the complexities that were highlighted in the consultation.

My intention is that any changes to the release point would apply to those who are already in custody in order to allow for there to be both an immediate and sustained impact on the prison population. We estimate that the new release point, after being implemented, could result in the prison population being between 260 and 390 lower than it would be without any changes being made. That will not resolve the prison population issue by itself but, importantly, it would be a sustainable action, rather than a temporary measure.

I very much recognise the concerns that arise from victims and their families and I am committed to working closely with victim support organisations. Public safety remains paramount, which is why I am focusing only on short-term prisoners, with built-in exemptions.

Although actions that can deliver a sustained reduction in the prison population are a priority, it is vital that plans are in place should the prison population reach the point at which more immediate action is needed. At this stage, it is not my intention to ask the Parliament to authorise the use of emergency early release again. However, I am aware that, if it is necessary and there is no alternative, it may be needed. Therefore, we will begin contingency planning on that option, working with key delivery partners, including victim support organisations, to learn from the emergency early release during the summer. We will ensure that plans are robust, with a clear focus on public protection.

I have outlined the vital steps that we must take towards addressing the rising prison population. I am, however, clear that further and deeper action will be needed. The challenges that we face are complex, and there is no single or straightforward solution. Of course, we must continue to tackle crime, building on the fact that recorded crime is down by almost 40 per cent since 2006-07. We must also continue to strengthen community justice. Community-based interventions and sentences help to ensure that justice is done, and they can be more effective than short-term custodial sentences in reducing reoffending and assisting with rehabilitation.

The safety and wellbeing of SPS staff and those in their care must remain at the forefront of our actions to ensure that prisons continue to function effectively. In addition, we must ensure that we have a prison estate that houses those who pose the greatest risk to the public, and which provides the full range of support that people need to enable them to leave on a better path and never turn back.

That will require a collective response, but it is necessary to deliver what we all want: less crime, fewer victims and safer communities.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement, for which I intend to allow about 20 minutes, after which we will move on to the next item of business. I encourage members who wish to ask a question to press their request-to-speak button if they have not already done so.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

When I previously held the justice brief, between 2017 and 2021, I recall frequently discussing the ballooning prison population and what to do about it, yet today that population is at record highs and, as the cabinet secretary conceded, it is projected to continue to rise. In coming back to the brief, what strikes me is that, despite promises that were made several years ago, there is still no long-term holistic strategy and route map to address the prison system, within the principles of justice and with due regard for victims, which would avoid panicked measures from the Government. I find it extraordinary that 17 years of Scottish National Party justice secretaries have failed to strategise a proper plan. Will the cabinet secretary confirm that a plan will be published this side of the 2026 election?

In 2015, when Nicola Sturgeon announced the end of automatic early release, she said that doing so represented

“the Scottish Government delivering on our justice commitments”.

The cabinet secretary proposes to reintroduce such a provision, although it will deal with short-term prisoners and not even account for the release point for long-term prisoners. That will undermine our justice system and sentencing and throw victims under a bus. Does the cabinet secretary concede that she is abandoning her justice commitments in favour of a panicked response to the Government’s long-term failures?

Finally, given that only 2 per cent of victims were notified during the previous panicked response to overcrowding by the Government, what figure for victim notifications does the cabinet secretary believe would represent success when the new scheme comes into play?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I welcome Liam Kerr to his new role, and I look forward to working with him in a constructive, serious and considered manner. He has never worked with me before, but I assure him that I have little appetite for posturing, pedantry or ideological narratives that deny the rationale of following the evidence about what will work to make our communities safer.

I also say to Mr Kerr that working at pace is not the same as being panicked. I have made several statements to the Parliament, and I am happy to share them with him so that he can get up to speed in returning to his justice brief. Over that time, I have outlined a range of short-term, medium-term and longer-term measures.

Mr Kerr will recall that his previous UK Conservative Government, in a somewhat secretive fashion, released 10,000 prisoners between October 2023 and July this year. I have been utterly up front, because it is not in my DNA to be panicked, and because, as justice secretary, I am absolutely determined to see these measures through in order to reform our justice system. Yes, that means reforming our prison system, but we have to remember that that is essential if we are going to meet our ambition of putting victims at the very heart of the system.

On long-term prisoners, the consultation made clear the rationale in relation to community safety for people to spend longer under robust community sentencing.

If Mr Kerr wishes, and if it is helpful to do so, I will provide an overview of all our plans in that area.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

We welcome the announcement of regulations to enable GPS technology for home detention curfew, but regulations have been in place for a number of years to allow GPS when an accused is on bail and the systems are still not in place to enable that to happen. Has the cabinet secretary now given instructions for the private company to carry out the work that is needed for GPS to be used, which we have for some time been calling for?

We welcome the extra £14 million for community justice, but the Criminal Justice Committee was told yesterday that that covers only the effect of inflation.

We now know that only five victims were informed in relation to the 477 releases over the summer, and the reoffending rate was 12 per cent. When the cabinet secretary announced the early release scheme, I asked her to exclude violent offenders, given the lack of appropriate systems of support and planning, the lack of victim notification and the higher risk from that particular group of prisoners. What lessons has she learned, and what consideration is she giving to prioritising offenders who have been convicted of non-violent offences?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I very much welcome Ms Clark’s support for and endorsement of the use of home detention curfew. We have made considerable progress in the planning work that is necessary for that and we are engaging closely with the contracting company that will deliver the technology. There are also operational aspects for the Scottish Prison Service to address.

As Ms Clark is aware, there are particular advantages to using GPS. We want to learn lessons from south of the border; for example, we will not be tethering people to the wall so that they can charge their tag—that is one vital lesson. There is considerable value in piloting GPS in the context of home detention curfew before rolling it out to other facilities and modes of supervision. Our use of electronic monitoring continues to increase, with more than 2,000 people being monitored across all orders.

On the important point about victim notification, which Mr Kerr also raised, I make it clear that I will work closely with victims and victim support organisations on the prisoner bill. We must ensure that our justice system, including the use of imprisonment, delivers first and foremost for victims of crime, as well as in regard to rehabilitation to prevent further harm, which is, of course, in victims’ interests.

I share Ms Clark’s disappointment that the number of people who were formally notified through the victim notification scheme was low. I remain committed to increasing awareness of the scheme and to doing everything that I can, in partnership with VSOs, to increase registration. I draw members’ attention to the fact that the Minister for Victims and Community Safety published yesterday our response on how we can make important improvements to victim notification schemes. We will use the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill as a vehicle to do that.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I have 10 colleagues who wish to ask a question, and we now have less than 13 minutes. The questions will need to be briefer, as will the cabinet secretary’s responses.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

Under the proposals that have been outlined, the number that is to be released early is relatively small compared with the overall prison population. Is the cabinet secretary confident that this can make a long-term difference?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I have wrestled with that issue. It was important to consider the measure in the round with other measures. I am confident that the numbers are high enough to make a difference—there is an anticipated reduction of between 260 and 390 prisoners—but it is not a step that must be taken on its own. It is a significant enough step in its own right, but it must be combined with other actions. The number could have been higher, but I have decided that, in the legislation that I will introduce in Parliament, statutory exclusions should be made for those who are serving sentences for domestic abuse and sexual offences. I hope that that is the right balance.

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

The SNP Government has so far failed to get to grips with the rising and overwhelming prison population. Meanwhile, community justice, which would deal with offenders without putting further pressure on prisons, is also being failed by the SNP. Justice social work needs more funding and more resources to deal with work demands and increasingly complex case loads, but the Government’s spending priorities are not fully in line with its announced objectives. If the Scottish Government is serious about using community sentencing to alleviate pressure on the prison population, can the cabinet secretary confirm that the required funding will be directed towards it?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I look forward to Ms Dowey’s amendments as we go through the budget process, and I look forward to her continuing to advocate for additional resources for our prison estate and for criminal justice social work. I am proud that it was this former criminal justice social worker who delivered a substantial increase in the resources that are available to our community justice services. I am also proud that recent statistics show that the number of community criminal justice social workers has increased.

It is unfortunate that Ms Dowey does not remember the austerity and harm that were inflicted by her Government, not least in terms of capital budgets. I am glad that she has repented, and I look forward to her full support during the budget process.

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

Can the cabinet secretary say more about how the Scottish Government will ensure that victims and organisations that represent victims are consulted on the proposed legislation? How will victims and their families be informed of the release of prisoners, if and when that happens?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I know that changes to release processes can be really upsetting and distressing for victims. Clear and accurate information for victims is essential so that they understand whether and how the prisoner in their case might be impacted by such changes.

I will work closely with victim support organisations to ensure that clear information is available to them. I will continue to do so when the legislation is introduced and—subject to agreement by Parliament—ahead of any changes being made. I am pleased to say that information is also available through the Scottish Government website, which sets out my proposals and the rights that victims have to access information about their case.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

Cabinet secretary, you have announced a substantial change in prison policy with the release of short-term prisoners who are 40 per cent into their sentence. I am sure that you will agree—

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Speak through the chair.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

—that that will concern victims unless it is addressed by Government investment in relation to reoffending rates. Fifty-seven out of the 477 prisoners who were released early in the summer are back in jail. What can the cabinet secretary say about whether further investment is to be made to ensure that the policy will not result in further reoffending cycles?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

It is important to recognise that, generally and globally, reconviction rates in Scotland are among the lowest that they have been, although I accept that no level of reoffending is acceptable in any shape or form. The return rate from the early emergency release that was undertaken over the summer was 12 per cent. That is significantly lower than comparable rates of the return to custody of short-term prisoners.

It is an important issue. Investment in the Scottish Government’s public services, both overall and in justice, will in large part depend on the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s forthcoming statements. Again, I look forward to cross-party support for our justice budget in the weeks and months to come.

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

Prisoners on remand make up around a quarter of the prison population, which seems an unacceptable level. Will the cabinet secretary expand on the steps that have been taken to improve alternatives to custody for those who are waiting to go to court?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I very much agree that the remand population is too high. I believe that that is the consensus of opinion across the chamber.

As I said in my statement, the remand population makes up 27 per cent of the prison population, which equates to 2,247 prisoners. The consistent provision of alternatives to remand is absolutely critical, and we are working hard with partners to increase the availability, consistency and effectiveness of those alternatives. Bail supervision is available in every local authority and there is good investment in it and in electronic monitoring. We will build on that as we go forward with the new third sector contract for throughcare.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I have previously raised the important issue of post-release support for people, given the heightened risk of death by suicide and substance misuse following release. Is the cabinet secretary of the view that community justice services, mental health services and broader community support organisations have sufficient skilled staff and the required resources to ensure that, with the earlier release point for short-term prisoners, they can properly support the latter and the communities that receive them?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Ms Chapman is quite correct to raise the risks of any period of transition for any individual. Those of us who have lost a client due to suicide or drug death know the impact of that, not least on their family. As she will know, it is imperative that all long-term prisoners be subject to statutory supervision and that voluntary aftercare be available to those who are released from short-term periods of custody. That also speaks to the importance of third sector support, which is why we are launching a new third sector contract for throughcare services next year.