Scottish Parliament, 9 November 2023

391 contributions from 73 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning. The first item of business is general question time.

Strategic Transport Projects Review 2 (South of Scotland Projects Update)

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

1. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the second strategic transport projects review in relation to projects in the south of Scotland. (S6O-02704)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Significant action is being taken by this Government to develop, deliver and invest in Scotland’s strategic transport infrastructure for the long term. The 45 recommendations contained in STPR2 include proposals for an improved and more resilient transport network in the south of Scotland.

Work is already in progress on five of the eight recommendations that are specifically relevant to the south of Scotland or which will have particular benefits for the region. That work includes consideration of how rail journeys for passengers and freight can be improved; A75 and A77 improvements; and integrated smart ticketing.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

I am sure that the minister will be delighted, as I am, by the fact that Scotland’s two Governments are working together to bring forward improvements to the A75 on the back of the union connectivity review, which highlighted the infrastructure projects that are significant to the whole of the United Kingdom, and by the UK Government’s commitment to funding the A75 projects.

Given that infrastructure funding is devolved, will the Scottish Government fulfil its obligations to the south of Scotland, step up to the mark and at least match the funding from the UK Government, and bring forward other essential projects to upgrade the equally neglected A77?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

In relation to the first part of Finlay Carson’s question, it is clear that the A75 has been designated by the UK Government as being worthy of union connectivity funding because it primarily benefits Northern Ireland. We have yet to receive confirmation of any funding from the UK Government.

In the meantime, this year £3 million-worth of structural maintenance schemes and improvements on the A75 are ensuring safe operation of the route.

The second part of Finlay Carson’s question was about the A77. In response to his colleague last week, I mentioned the Haggstone climbing lane, the Glen App wide single carriageway, the Park End to Bennane project and the Symington and Bogend Toll project, all of which are on top of the funding for and the delivery of the much-needed and much-welcomed Maybole bypass. Those are all positive improvements by the Scottish Government in the south of Scotland.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

The UK Government’s union connectivity review recognised that the only way that the A75 would be upgraded would be through the UK Government providing the Scottish Government with the funding to make the STPR2 recommendations happen. I do not know why the Tories continually blame the Scottish Government when it has a fixed budget.

Does the minister agree that Finlay Carson’s efforts would be better directed at lobbying his UK Government bosses, including the absent Dumfries and Galloway MP and Secretary of State for Scotland, Alister Jack, so that my constituents get the road upgrades that they have been campaigning for for decades?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Last month, the UK Government minister for roads and local transport confirmed that funding of £8 million was available, subject to final approvals. Those final approvals have yet to come. Although that commitment is in line with our funding request, confirmation came only after a face-to-face meeting that I had with the minister in September, at which I had to press for a final decision to be made.

My officials continue to engage proactively with their UK counterparts, and we await confirmation that the funding that we have requested will be forthcoming. Indeed, we had to submit a second business case on 17 October, following our initial submission of a business case in April, because of the passage of time and the inaction of the UK Government.

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill (Victims’ and Accused Persons’ Rights)

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

2. To ask the Scottish Government how it will balance the rights of victims with the rights of the accused in the processes developed by the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill. (S6O-02705)

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

I am very conscious of the need to ensure that the rights of victims and the rights of referred children are balanced, and I am aware of the concerns around that issue, as I have reflected in my evidence to the Education, Children and Young People Committee and my meetings with individual members.

The bill’s provisions seek to balance the rights, needs and expectations of victims, and of the parents or carers of child victims, with the rights of referred children. I assure the member that amendments to further improve support for victims are being considered for stage 2.

The bill will ensure that there is scope for referral of all children to the principal reporter, removing the barriers that meant that children already had to be in the hearings system before turning 16 if they were to get support through that system. Importantly, the bill will also allow referrals for children who are themselves victims within their family home.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I concede that the evidence tells us that it can be difficult for Government to juggle the rights of distinct groups. As the minister suggests, the Education, Children and Young People Committee has raised a number of concerns about the lack of consideration thus far of the needs of child victims within the children’s hearings process.

Just yesterday, Victim Support Scotland highlighted a father’s concerns about the lack of information and support and challenges with regard to safety planning for victims. Ian said:

“I would not wish on my worst enemy what we had to go through as a family.”

I appreciate that the minister cannot yet disclose the planned amendments to the bill, but will she reiterate that she takes seriously the significant concerns expressed by multiple agencies and by the ECYP Committee, and will she ensure that the rights of child victims are given the same focus as those of child perpetrators?

The Presiding Officer

I must ask for concise questions and responses.

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

I am really sorry to hear about the situation that Michelle Thomson has outlined and I thank her for raising a really important issue. Whether a child’s behaviour is dealt with by the criminal justice system or the children’s hearings system, we must absolutely ensure that we meet the needs of victims and their families. I again assure the member that I am absolutely alive to the issues that she raises. In fact, I have met Victim Support Scotland to discuss the bill and those issues.

As I said in my initial answer, making further improvements to support for victims will be a key consideration during stage 2 of the bill process. I would be happy to meet with the member to discuss that in more detail.

Additional Support Needs (Mainstream Education) (Central Scotland)

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the support and services available for children and young people with additional support needs in mainstream education across Central Scotland. (S6O-02706)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Our most recent figures show that local authority spending on additional support for learning has reached a record high of £830 million. We have also invested £15 million per year since 2019-20 to support the recruitment of pupil support assistants and to help them respond to the individual needs of children and young people. In addition, the Scottish Government provided more than £11 million of funding to directly support pupils with complex additional support needs and services to children and families.

We work with a number of partners across Central Scotland to ensure that advice, support and resources are available to the parents and carers of children and young people with additional support needs, the children and young people themselves and the practitioners who support them.

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The truth is that many children are in learning settings that do not suit their needs. Parents have contacted me to say that, due to long waiting lists for ASN diagnosis, many children are being refused a transfer to ASN specialist schools and nurseries. The fact of the matter is that our school and nursery estates are not equipped to deal with the number of young people who have complex additional support needs. ASN parent councils in my region have raised that issue, but their voices are being ignored.

What will this Government do to reduce the time that families spend waiting for an ASN diagnosis? Does the minister agree that a full review of the ASN estate is long overdue?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The member raises a really important point, particularly in the light of the number of pupils who now have an identified additional support need. More than a third of our young people now have an identified need, which changes the types of learning and teaching that happen in our classrooms and affects the needs of our young people, their parents and carers.

I am sorry to hear about the experience of the campaign group in the member’s region. I would be more than happy to engage with that group and, indeed, have engaged directly with the ASN reform Scotland group on the matter.

The member also makes a number of points about diagnosis. Under the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act (2004), no diagnosis is required for additional support to be given, but we very much recognise that having a diagnosis can help young people and their families.

In 2021, we published guidance on the national neurodevelopmental specification for children and young people. The member has asked for a review of that guidance, but I suggest to her that it might be prudent to consider that more fully as part of the education reform process, recognising that that process must reflect the recent changes in our classrooms. ASN is part of that change and I am committed to working with the member, and with members from across the chamber, on how we can better support teachers, parents and carers in relation to additional support needs.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

Presiding Officer, I apologise for being slightly late for general questions.

Cabinet secretary, should the discussion about involving parents not include involving parents and carers in the decision-making processes regarding their young person, instead of just keeping them informed?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I agree with the member’s suggestion in relation to decision making. As I alluded to in my response to Meghan Gallacher, we provide support to parents, but if the member has any suggestions on how we can better influence that through the education reform process, I am more than happy to listen to them.

This Tuesday, we launched the consultation on the issues surrounding the legislation that will come forward next year. There is an opportunity to strengthen that legislation, particularly in relation to parental rights, and I am more than happy to consider that suggestion through the consultation process.

Scottish Water (Industrial Action)

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

4. I remind members of my voluntary entry in the register of members’ interests regarding the GMB, Unite and Unison trade unions.

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports that notice of industrial action has been served on Scottish Water. (S6O-02707)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

Those on-going pay negotiations are, of course, a matter for Scottish Water, as the employer, on one hand and the unions on the other. However, I understand that, as Mr Leonard narrates, Scottish Water has been notified by the three recognised unions of industrial action, starting from Friday 10 November. I encourage all parties to continue negotiations to resolve the dispute.

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

I thank the cabinet secretary for her answer.

When the three Scottish Water trade unions—Unite, Unison and the GMB—came to Parliament on Tuesday, they were determined. Since the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service talks broke up at 2.30 this morning, they are angry.

The cabinet secretary simply cannot claim that those negotiations are solely a matter for Scottish Water. The Scottish Government wholly owns Scottish Water. The planned pay cut to the lowest-paid workers is a flagrant breach of the Scottish Government’s fair work principles. The last time we were so close to a Scottish Water strike, back in 2008, the then finance secretary stepped in—I know, because I was there. With 12 hours to go before the strike, will the cabinet secretary come out of hiding, break her silence and get this dispute settled?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I repeat that, contrary to Mr Leonard’s characterisation, the pay negotiations are a matter for Scottish Water on the one hand and the unions on the other. He is quite right that further talks were conducted last night, and they went on into the early hours of the morning. I understand that they were positive although inconclusive. Contingency plans are in place for strike action and a further meeting is scheduled with ACAS for 15 November.

Support for Small Businesses (Mid Scotland and Fife)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

5. To ask the Scottish Government how it supports small businesses in the Mid Scotland and Fife region. (S6O-02708)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Businesses in

Mid Scotland and Fife and across

Scotland can access advice, guidance and financial support from a wide range of organisations across the public sector. There are more than 750 publicly funded interventions to support businesses in Scotland, including grants and loans, consultancy, research, training opportunities and self-help guides. Most of that support is available to any business anywhere in Scotland, whatever stage of growth it is at.

On non-domestic rates, the Scottish budget this year ensures the lowest poundage in the United Kingdom for the fifth year in a row and supports a package of reliefs that are worth an estimated £749 million. That includes the most generous small business bonus scheme relief in the UK, which is estimated to save ratepayers £250 million this year.

The Scottish Government is working with the enterprise agencies, local government and other public bodies to improve the way that we support businesses through the business support partnership. A range of business support is available via Business Gateway and Scottish Enterprise and can be accessed via findbusinesssupport.gov.scot.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I will ask a question about something that the cabinet secretary has not mentioned. During the Economy and Fair Work Committee’s inquiry into town centres, we spoke to Fife small businesses about their bricks and clicks model and how important the digitalboost grant funding was.

The digital strategy had committed to expanding that fund, yet the budget was reduced in 2022-23 and the Government has made no plans for it this year. Instead, it is focusing on piloting digital productivity labs. The labs pilot scheme ended in June. What progress is being made on developing an improved digital support programme, and will the popular digitalboost grant be reinstated as part of that?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Claire Baker for her question. I always endeavour to provide as much information as possible and to be as comprehensive as I can in answering parliamentary questions.

I am more than happy to provide further information in writing on the work that we are doing to support businesses on the digital front. It is a substantial part of the investment that is made in my portfolio, and I will endeavour to write to Claire Baker to ensure that she has the fullest information regarding the available support.

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

This week, business organisations united in a call for non-domestic rates to be frozen in the forthcoming budget as a measure that would do more than anything else to support small business. Will they be listened to?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

The Scottish Government’s budget process is on-going. The Deputy First Minister’s tax advisory group is looking at areas such as that. I convene the new deal for business group, and the implementation plan that I am endeavouring to deliver on includes elements of non-domestic rate reform where that is possible.

We will be looking at what we can do to support businesses through non-domestic rates, but Murdo Fraser will know, as I do, that the business resilience information that I get and that is available through all the enterprise agencies demonstrates that the biggest challenges facing businesses right now are inflation, energy costs and interest rate rises, the responsibility for all of which lies firmly at the door of his Government at Westminster.

Learning Estate Investment Programme (Funding) (South Scotland)

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what funding it is providing through the next phase of the learning state investment programme for schools in the South Scotland region. (S6O-02709)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The Scottish Government’s learning estate investment programme is a £2 billion investment project supporting Scotland’s school estate. Phase 3 supports a priority project in those councils that have not thus far benefited from LEIP funding, so it treats councils fairly and equitably.

Although it is the duty of councils to manage and maintain their school estates, we are supporting eight projects in the South Scotland region through phases 1 and 2 of LEIP.

Additionally, through the previous Scotland’s schools for the future programme, we awarded councils with funding of almost £171 million towards 20 priority projects in the South Scotland region.

As a result of investment by the Government, the proportion of schools in good or satisfactory condition in Scotland has increased from 61 per cent in April 2007 to almost 91 per cent in April 2023.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

The question was about the next phase of the programme, not the one that happened three years ago. The short answer is that there is nothing—not a penny—for a single school in South Scotland. It was bad enough that projects were delayed and costs rose because of the dithering of the cabinet secretary in making a decision on funding, but now every project in the region has been rejected. What message does the cabinet secretary have for parents at schools such as Dumfries academy, which is classed as condition B and C, which are not worthy of funding, when schools that have been classed as condition A have had funding?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I remind the member of the vast improvement in the school estate that I mentioned in my previous answer. It was a vast improvement that was made necessary by his party’s pathetic record on our schools while it was in office, which left us in a situation whereby almost 40 per cent of our schools were in a substandard condition.

I want to work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to consider how we build on the progress, but if we had gone even further with LEIP funding at this stage, as I hear the member suggesting, that money would have had to come from somewhere else. Where is the member suggesting that that extra budget should come from? What cuts would he make to the education budget to fund extra schools? That is the reality of the situation that we face, thanks to an austerity agenda brought in by the Tories, and now supported whole-heartedly by Keir Starmer and the Labour Party.

Strathclyde Pension Fund (Discussions)

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

7. To ask the Scottish Government when it last met representatives of the Strathclyde Pension Fund and what was discussed. (S6O-02710)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Scottish Government officials attend the Scottish Local Government Pension Scheme Advisory Board as observers and are often present at other events associated with the local government pension scheme, which representatives of the Strathclyde Pension Fund also attend. Scottish Government officials also regularly communicate with representatives from the fund about administrative matters.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

The success of the fund will allow employers to reduce pension contributions for a couple of years while protecting pension payments for current and future beneficiaries. That will unlock additional resources for several local authorities, including South Lanarkshire. Will the minister outline whether useful lessons will be learned from the success of the Strathclyde Pension Fund for other public sector investments?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The Strathclyde Pension Fund might indeed be commended for its performance, and that reflects the fact that the local government pension scheme in Scotland is a success story.

A number of options exist for funds that report a surplus, and approaches might differ from one fund to the next. Clearly, the experience of Strathclyde Pension Fund in recent years is an example of good practice. However, I understand that the other 10 Scottish funds are also more than 100 per cent funded. Scottish fund authorities meet to discuss investments on a regular basis. Closer collaboration is an approach that may be a viable option for them.

More widely, we encourage an approach to investment finance that brings together individuals, businesses and organisations with relevant experience and interests to promote investment opportunities in Scotland and support growth.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes general questions.

Before we move to the First Minister’s question time, I invite members to join me in welcoming to the gallery His Excellency Teodoro Locsin, ambassador of the Philippines to the United Kingdom. [

Applause

.]

Covid-19 Inquiry

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. Last night, the Deputy First Minister was forced to admit to this Parliament that the United Kingdom Covid inquiry sent a request to the Scottish Government for messages related to the pandemic in February of this year, yet last week, the Deputy First Minister claimed that the request was made just over a month ago. Those two statements are clearly contradictory, so how can they both be true?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The

Deputy First Minister was clear in her statement last week—members can check the

Official Report

—when she mentioned that there were initial requests from the inquiry. In my response to Anas Sarwar, I was talking about a very particular issue around specific WhatsApp groups.

Let me be absolutely clear—[

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

I fully accept that the Scottish Government clearly interpreted the request from the inquiry in a way that was too narrow. For any shortcomings on our behalf— [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the First Minister, please.

The First Minister

For any shortcomings on our behalf

that have caused any distress to the families of those who have been bereaved by Covid, I apologise unreservedly, as I did last week. I reiterate and re-emphasise that apology this week.

On the back of the request from the inquiry, we have ensured that the Government has released 14,000 messages to it. When it comes to my witness statement, it includes reams of WhatsApp messages, which are unredacted. That is, of course, in very stark contrast to the actions of a Prime Minister who not only dragged the inquiry through court but has refused to hand over his own WhatsApp messages.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

This is the third week that I have raised the issue at First Minister’s question time. [

Interruption

.]

If Scottish National Party members do not like that, they will not have liked the First Minister’s attempt at an excuse—the First Minister peddled the same false claims as the Deputy First Minister.

Let us be very clear what he said to the Parliament last week. Humza Yousaf said:

“The messages were asked for in September, just a matter of weeks ago” —[

Official Report

, 2 November; c 17.]

That is what he said. It is there in black and white in the

Official Report

. However, back in February, the UK Covid inquiry asked for

“internal and external emails, text messages or WhatsApp messages held by the Scottish Government”.

The evidence is clear. Will he admit that, in last week’s question time, he did not tell the truth?

The First Minister

I absolutely refute that. I clearly told the chamber—members can check the

Official Report

—that I was talking about specific WhatsApp groups.

What I fully accept from the inquiry is that we have interpreted its requests too narrowly. [

Interruption

.] Subsequently, having done so—[

Interruption

.].

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

We then supplied 14,000 messages to the inquiry. In my witness statement, I handed over to the inquiry the WhatsApp messages that I have, unredacted. That is in very stark contrast to a UK Government that took the inquiry to court and lost that court battle, and a Prime Minister who refuses to hand over his WhatsApp messages.

I say to Douglas Ross once again that we do not fear scrutiny, but I suspect that his party absolutely does.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

That was a very brave answer from the First Minister

, when his predecessor and others in Government have been deleting messages and running away from scrutiny.

Let us look very carefully at what was said last week, because the First Minister seems to be struggling with it. The Deputy First Minister told Parliament that

“it has been just over a month”—[

Official Report

, 31 October 2023; c 66.]

since messages were requested. The First Minister claimed, in the chamber, that

“The messages were asked for in September, just a matter of weeks ago.”—[

Official Report

, 2 November 2023; c 17.]

That is what was said, and it is in the Parliament’s

Official Report

. The two most senior people in the Scottish Government stated that the UK Covid inquiry only requested the messages in September. It was not a slip of the tongue, and it was not an honest mistake; it was deliberate.

Now the UK Covid inquiry, which is tasked with getting answers for grieving families, has had to demand that the SNP comes to this Parliament to tell the truth about the timeline of when the requests were made. Why did Humza Yousaf and the SNP make those false claims?

The First Minister

I urge Douglas Ross to once again read the statement from the Deputy First Minister, which says—

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I have.

The First Minister

Well, if Douglas Ross has read it, he will have seen, in black and white, that the Deputy First Minister referenced the initial requests. It was entirely understandable and appropriate for the inquiry to ask us to then provide the absolutely full context for the requests, which we did—without any hesitation or arguing back with the inquiry—to ensure that we were transparent and accountable.

I understand why Douglas Ross wants to obsess about process. We have, of course, handed over the 14,000 messages—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members! Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

—

and I have handed over reams of WhatsApp messages from myself.

I absolutely acknowledge the distress that has been caused to families who have been bereaved by Covid. I apologise unreservedly to them. Although the process is important, the substance of those messages is important, too. I can say with total confidence, even though I have not seen some of the messages from individual witnesses, that not a single Scottish Government minister said,

“let the bodies pile high”—[

Interruption

.]

That, of course, was said by none other than Boris Johnson—a man under whom Douglas Ross served in Government, whom he defended to the hilt—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members! First Minister—briefly, please.

The First Minister

He is a man whom Douglas Ross claimed was honest. Douglas Ross should be ashamed of himself for his defence of Boris Johnson.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Humza Yousaf should be ashamed of himself not just for that answer but for treating this Parliament, and the families of grieving victims, with contempt.

Let us be very clear. The UK Covid inquiry repeatedly asked the SNP Government for WhatsApp messages. Last year, it asked whether the messages existed. It asked for the messages themselves in February this year, and again in March, in July and in August, but the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister claim that none of that ever happened. They have been caught red handed in a cover-up. They knowingly told the chamber statements that were false. Is it not beyond doubt that Humza Yousaf and Shona Robison misled the Parliament?

The First Minister

That is not the case. Once again, I refer Douglas Ross to the

Official Report

, in which, in black and white, the Deputy First Minister, talked about “initial requests”. I fully accept that, as a Government, we interpreted those requests too narrowly. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

T

o take corrective action, we have ensured that we have submitted 14,000 messages. I have ensured that I have handed over the messages that I have, in unredacted form.

However, let us not take away from the substance in favour of the process issues with which Douglas Ross is so obsessed. This week, Simon Case described working in Boris Johnson’s Government as being “like taming wild animals”. That, of course, was a Government of which Douglas Ross was a member. I cannot even read out the messages that Dominic Cummings handed to the inquiry. However, we heard from that inquiry—[

Interruption

.]

Douglas Ross will not want to hear this, so I can understand why Conservative members are trying to shout it down, but this is an exceptionally important point.

In the inquiry, in the past couple of weeks, we have heard that there was a deliberate attempt by the UK Government to exclude devolved Governments from decision making. During the early days of the pandemic, Douglas Ross was a minister in the Scotland Office. Did he purposely try to exclude devolved Administrations and, indeed, this Government from decision making?

The Presiding Officer

First Minister—

The First Minister

At a time when people right across the UK needed serious leadership during a serious time, they had “wild animals”—according to Simon Case—running the UK Government.

Covid-19 Inquiry (Legal Advice)

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. Bereaved families and their lawyers are watching these exchanges. I do not think that we should use Boris Johnson as our measure of success in Scotland.

It could not be clearer: the First Minister has lost control of his Government and he appears to have misled Parliament on more than one occasion. Let us focus on the substance, because this matters. The Covid pandemic was our country’s most difficult period in living memory. That is why learning the lessons and getting the answers are so important. We were promised full transparency and co-operation by this Government, but it has failed. WhatsApp messages are not the only evidence that the Government is withholding from the inquiry. The legal advice that the Government has provided has not been complete and, in some cases, it has been almost entirely redacted. The inquiry’s lawyer has said that that means that the inquiry is constrained from fully carrying out its function. Why is the First Minister’s Government hiding the legal advice and not co-operating with the inquiry?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

As Anas Sarwar knows, I cannot comment on legal advice. However, where there is the ability to hand over unredacted legal advice, I expect the Scottish Government to do so. We will do that with whatever information we can provide. After First Minister’s question time, I am more than happy to have the appropriate conversations with the law officers, but we have to ensure that legal privilege is maintained, where it is our legal responsibility to do so.

Anas Sarwar said that we are not complying. I whole-heartedly disagree with that. We have handed over 14,000 WhatsApp messages. I have handed over my WhatsApp messages in unredacted form—I have not decided what is relevant; I have handed over all my messages to the inquiry for it to decide what is relevant.

Anas Sarwar is absolutely right: the families who have been bereaved by Covid want answers. The 19,000 documents that we have handed over and the 14,000 WhatsApp messages that we have handed over, including the WhatsApp messages that I have handed over, show that this Government intends absolutely and unequivocally to fully co-operate with both the Scottish and United Kingdom public inquiries.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The First Minister said that he is co-operating, but I am not sure that he understands the question that I asked him or knows the situation, because he clearly still has not read the transcript from the UK Covid inquiry.

The First Minister

I have it right here.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Well, he should read it.

The counsel to the inquiry has made it clear that the inquiry has asked twice—on 3 August and 14 August—for unredacted legal advice and has not received it. That does not seem to be a fight that the Covid inquiry is having with the UK Tory Government in relation to major decisions during the pandemic that, presumably, involved legal advice, such as those around lockdowns, discharge to care homes and “Do not resuscitate” notices. That is why the issue is important. Hiding that crucial evidence is an affront to every victim of Covid, their families and everyone who lived under lockdowns and closures.

In relation to the First Minister’s first answer, the Government has previously handed over legal advice in full to judicial inquiries, including the trams inquiry, the infected blood inquiry and the Scottish child abuse inquiry. The secrecy and evasion must stop. Will he hand over the legal advice in full to the Covid inquiry?

The First Minister

Anas Sarwar’s question gets to the nub of the issue, which is that the Government has co-operated fully with inquiries in the past. Where we are able to release legal advice, we will absolutely do that, but Anas Sarwar has to accept, first, that a process has to be gone through and, secondly, that each bit of legal advice has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. He is absolutely right that we have provided legal advice to previous inquiries. Where we can do so in this inquiry, I absolutely expect every document, including those containing legal advice, to be handed over to the UK Covid inquiry and the Scottish Covid inquiry.

I go back to the central point. Quite rightly, the families who have been bereaved by Covid want to know whether we will co-operate. Nineteen thousand documents, and 14,000 messages—mainly WhatsApp messages—have been handed over.

My WhatsApp messages, as well as the messages of other ministers who, I know, have been public about the messages that they have handed over, have been submitted to the inquiry. We take absolutely seriously our responsibility to provide not just documents but, where possible, the legal advice. However, there are legal issues around legal privilege that have to be considered.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

It is clear from that answer that the First Minister is sinking, not swimming, and is completely and utterly out of his depth.

It is not me who is saying that the legal advice has been redacted and not handed over—it was the Covid inquiry that, on 3 August and 14 August, asked for the information that has still not been provided by this Government. WhatsApp messages have been deleted, legal advice has been redacted and there is a different story every day.

Even now, questions remain that the First Minister refuses to answer. He will not tell us how many people have failed to comply with the “Do not destroy” notices, even though the inquiry says that there is no confidentiality issue.

There is more. It has been reported that Scottish National Party ministers and special advisers use SNP and private email accounts to communicate. What is not clear is whether those emails have been handed over, in full, to the Covid inquiry.

Can the First Minister tell us, in the spirit of full transparency, whether any emails from SNP accounts have been handed to the Covid inquiry? If so, how many, and if not, why not?

I remind the First Minister again that this is about families who lost loved ones during Covid. Before he answers, I remind him that we need accurate answers the first time.

The First Minister

I am not arguing with Anas Sarwar on the point that information has been redacted. I am saying to him that the reason why it has been redacted is—I can confirm—that there are issues around legal privilege, and therefore a discussion would have to take place with our law officers in relation to what could be unredacted.

Where we can send information unredacted, it is my full expectation, as the individual who leads the Government, that that information is provided in full, in unredacted form.

I will give Anas Sarwar an example of the way in which I lead by example in that regard. The WhatsApp messages that I have handed over have been handed over unredacted. The information that I have provided has been provided in unredacted form.

As for any other form of communication, including any other email address or informal or formal communication, it is my full expectation that that is handed over.

Of course, I do not have sight of individual ministers’ or witnesses’ statements. From a corporate position, I can confirm that any relevant information that we hold will be handed over.

Let me say once again, for the families who have been bereaved by Covid, that the Government will fully comply with both the UK inquiry and the Scottish public inquiry.

Renters (Support)

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government is supporting renters who are struggling with the cost of living. (S6F-02520)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I am acutely aware of the pressure that renters are facing. I am pleased that the Parliament voted to extend for a final six months, to March, the Cost of Living (Tenant Protection) (Scotland) Act 2022, which continues to provide protection and reassurance to renters by capping private sector rents. That is alongside our agreement with social landlords to keep rent increases this year well below inflation.

Scotland is leading the way in support for tenants. This year, we are making £83.7 million available to local authorities to spend on discretionary housing payments—more per person than is provided in any other United Kingdom nation. That is why I repeat my call to the UK Government to scrap its on-going freeze on local housing allowance rates, which hits hardest those tenants on the lowest incomes.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

I, like the First Minister, strongly support our emergency legislation to cap rents and reduce evictions, which was led by Patrick Harvie last year.

I welcome last week’s Court of Session decision to reject a challenge to that legislation. It was said that the challenge fell

“far short of what is required in order ... to demonstrate that the Act disproportionately interferes with the”

property

“rights of landlords.”

With that court decision in mind, does the First Minister agree that it is time for landlord bodies to accept the overwhelming need for action to control high rents and improve tenants’ rights, and that they should work constructively with the Government on the housing bill when it is introduced in this parliamentary year?

The First Minister

I do, and I welcome the court’s decision last week. I want to work constructively with all stakeholders to deliver a system of rent control that works for Scotland. I am pleased that a number of

landlord representative bodies are working with us through the private rented sector stakeholder group, and that a range of organisations representing the views of tenants, investors and developers are represented on that group. I am keen that that approach continues as we move towards the bill’s introduction. The Deputy First Minister, Màiri McAllan and I had a good session with our investor panel last week, and it was made clear by that panel that those who want to invest in property and affordable housing will do so in places that have rent controls. We have seen that in Europe.

We are keen to engage with everybody on the issue. No other Government in the UK is as ambitious as this Government is in this area, given our emergency legislation, which comes on top of our 2016 legislation to end no-fault evictions—a move that I know the UK Government is now also considering.

The Presiding Officer

Ms Adamson, I just want to check: is your supplementary question on this topic?

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

No.

The Presiding Officer

Thank you. We will move on to question 4.

Poverty Alleviation

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government is doing to alleviate poverty in Scotland, in light of reports that the United Kingdom is in violation of international law in relation to poverty levels. (S6F-02511)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The Scottish Government is

allocating almost £3 billion to support policies that tackle poverty and protect people as far as possible during the on-going cost of living crisis this year. That includes delivering our game-changing Scottish child payment and tripling our fuel and security fund to £30 million.

While the Westminster Government signs up to prolonged austerity, this Government will continue to use every single available lever to lift people out of poverty. We know the devastating impact that UK Government measures are having in driving more people into poverty, so it is no surprise, frankly, to hear that the United Nations special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights has stated that the UK Government is in violation of international law over poverty levels. It is, however, shocking. We agree with the UN that universal credit is “grossly insufficient”. That is why we continue to call on the UK Government to introduce an essentials guarantee, thereby ensuring that social security adequately covers the cost of vital essentials.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Y

esterday, the Trussell Trust released astonishing figures showing that 1.5 million emergency food parcels were distributed across the UK between April and September—the most parcels that the network has ever provided over the summer months. That is a 16 per cent increase UK-wide, but it has been mitigated to 9 per cent in Scotland. That is further evidence of the utter misery that is being caused by what the UN special rapporteur on extreme poverty called the Tories’ “grossly insufficient” welfare system. Does the First Minister agree with me that the UK Government must introduce a universal credit essentials guarantee immediately, and that the only way to protect people in Scotland from Westminster’s cruel policies is for this Parliament to have the full powers of an independent country?

Members

Oh!

The First Minister

C

ollette Stevenson speaks powerfully about evidence from the Trussell Trust, but all we hear is groans and moans from the Conservative benches, as happens when the Trussell Trust or poverty are mentioned. That tells its own story, does it not?

I agree with Collette Stevenson that the UK Government must urgently fix the fundamental flaws with universal credit that are driving destitution and driving up food-bank use. The Trussell Trust report is “astonishing”, as Collette Stevenson said. It makes it clear that the UK Government’s social security system is one of the driving factors that is pushing people towards hunger. That is why this Government supports calls for an essentials guarantee to be applied to universal credit and other reserved benefits, to ensure that social security benefits adequately cover the cost of vital essentials.

Would it not be far better if we were able to extricate ourselves from a Westminster system that is causing such immense harm to our people? It would be far better if we stopped having to take money from health, education and transport to mitigate Westminster harm and instead had the full powers of an independent country—not just to reduce poverty but to eradicate it.

NHS Lothian (Deafness Testing)

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the First Minister what support the Scottish Government is offering to NHS Lothian to contact the parents and guardians of the over 23,000 children who reportedly may have received substandard testing to identify deafness, including support to identify any other young children who have not received the required standard of auditory brainstem response testing. (S6F-02510)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

First, I recognise the anxiety and anger that the children and families who have been affected by the situation quite reasonably feel. When

the issue emerged,

Miles Briggs and I met, because I was then the Cabinet Secretary

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

The series of failures in NHS Lothian that has denied children with hearing loss the chance to be identified early and receive hearing therapy and speech and language therapy has been catastrophic for children and families here in Edinburgh. NHS Lothian has never confirmed how many parents or guardians have been contacted or how many of the 23,000 children have been reassessed.

It is unacceptable that families in Edinburgh are having to fight for their children to access health services and the educational support that they need. Will the Scottish Government agree today to all parents and guardians involved being contacted and to children being reassessed urgently, if that is needed? Given the many outstanding concerns that have been raised in inquiries to date, what consideration have ministers given to the need for a public inquiry into the audiology scandal in NHS Lothian and into cases that are being reported in other health boards?

The First Minister

Miles Briggs asked a number of questions, which I will ensure the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care provides full details on. If we can provide information on the number of families who have been contacted, I will ensure that it is provided to Miles Briggs.

My understanding is that the BAA review ended up stratifying into seven categories the children who were affected. Children who had significant concerns reported were brought in for additional retesting, or additional clinical oversight was given to their case. I will ensure that Miles Briggs is given more information on the stratification and categorisation of all 23,000 children, but I assure him that those who were most seriously impacted—who were at highest risk—were given additional clinical care.

Miles Briggs made an important point about lessons being learned. We have ensured that the lessons from this unacceptable catalogue of failures have been cascaded to health boards across the country. We continue to make sure that our health boards are vigilant about learning lessons from this sorry episode. I will ensure that, if we can provide it, the information about the number of children who have been seen is provided to Miles Briggs.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

The issue is that, despite detailed answers, there are parents who continue to feel that they have been missed and struggle to get help. We know that 23,000 children have potentially been affected, but fewer than 2,000 have had a detailed review.

What work is being done to ensure that the sampling techniques that have been used are comprehensive? Do we know the number of children who have yet to be identified on the basis of that sampling? Do we have to look at the period that is covered? Nobody at all from before 2017 has been looked at.

The First Minister

I will ensure that we give Daniel Johnson full answers in relation to the 23,000 children. My understanding is that the decision was not taken by NHS Lothian, but by the British Academy of Audiology, which designed and conducted the audit.

As I have said, the children were grouped into various categories and those who were at highest risk were given further clinical oversight. If there are parents and families who feel that their child has not had the appropriate level of attention or care, and that they are experiencing significant impacts—or, frankly, any impact—because of that sorry episode, I ask that Daniel Johnson brings them to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care and I am sure that he will take it up with NHS Lothian. I am sure that Daniel Johnson has the relevant contact details, but I am more than happy to pass on to him the details for the appropriate individuals in NHS Lothian. I know that they are approaching the matter with the utmost seriousness.

Scottish Water (Bonus Payments)

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

6. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to reports that Scottish Water has issued bonus payments to executives in excess of public sector pay rules. (S6F-02515)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The criteria for paying bonuses to Scottish Water’s executive members are agreed by ministers ahead of each regulatory period. They are in line with public sector pay rules, which state that we need to attract and retain highly experienced personnel to run vital public services. The current remuneration package for the chief executive officer and senior management team is significantly smaller than that which is paid by comparable utilities, both for salaries and bonus incentives.

The Presiding Officer

I call Stephen Kerr. [

Interruption

.] I apologise. I think that we can afford Pauline McNeill a supplementary question.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

I nearly had a heart attack there. [

Laughter

.]

This week, it was reported that three Scottish Water executives had received nearly £1.1 million in bonuses in 2021, on top of a six-figure salary and despite the fact that there were 14,000 sewage spillages last year alone. That begs the question as to why those executives qualified for performance bonuses. The same executives are withholding a pay rise from their workers unless their staff accept a new pay structure, under which the poorest would be losing as much as £5,000.

I have to ask the First Minister: what has gone wrong? Why is a public sector body paying public sector executives who seem to be a law unto themselves vast amounts of money in an instance where there have been existing failures and customers have been asked to pay even more for infrastructure? Can the First Minister justify that in a public sector body?

The First Minister

Pauline McNeill’s characterisation of Scottish Water is deeply unfair. First and foremost, I understand that pay negotiations are on-going and were on-going until the early hours of the morning. I am pleased that discussions are on-going and I hope that strike action can be averted, even at the last minute and the last hour, because the Government has a strong track record when it comes to ensuring that workers are paid fairly.

On remuneration, I mentioned that Scottish Water has to be competitive. We should compare the CEO’s salary, which is, of course, a high salary of £245,000, to the situation in Welsh Water, where the CEO’s base salary is £341,000, or United Utilities, where the CEO’s base salary is £971,000. Those figures are sourced from salary comparison tables for 2022-23. The reason why I mention that is because we have to make sure that Scottish Water is able to attract the best talent from across the country and, indeed, the world. The bonus element of any remuneration package is paid only in the event of outperformance of demand targets that are—this is crucial—verified by independent regulators.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The First Minister will be aware of the damning report on drinking water by the Drinking Water Quality Regulator for Scotland. Sue Petch, the regulator, called out a backlog of maintenance and neglect of the maintenance of assets, and said that that posed a real

“danger to human health.” The regulator has issued an enforcement order. The First Minister is accountable for Scottish Water. What will he to do to ensure that that enforcement notice is carried out and that the backlog is properly dealt with?

The First Minister

We will ensure that Scottish Water invests significant amounts of money over the coming period. It will invest £4.5 billion from 2021 up to the 2027 period.

That investment programme is supported by Government borrowing of up to £1.03 billion, and £880 million was invested in 2022-23 to upgrade essential treatment works and water supply and sewer networks.

On Scotland’s water quality, we know from the Scottish Environment Protection Agency that 87 per cent of Scotland’s entire water environment is assessed as having either a high or good classification for water quality.

On the enforcement notice, which Stephen Kerr is right to raise, it is my full expectation that Scottish Water will comply with it.

The Presiding Officer

There is much demand to ask supplementary questions. If members can keep their questions and responses concise, we will get more members in.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Sewage was dumped 14,000 times last year, faecal bacteria in Lower Largo was 50 times the legal limit, and there was dry sewage dumping in St Andrews. How on earth can the First Minister justify such whopping bonuses when those Scottish Water bosses are responsible for such failure?

The First Minister

I have just mentioned the fact that 87 per cent of Scotland’s entire water environment is assessed by SEPA as having high or good classification. I have also made the point, which Willie Rennie clearly did not listen to, that, when it comes to the awarding of bonuses, they are, of course, for where performance targets have been met and exceeded, and they are independently verified by regulators. It is important that publicly owned companies such as Scottish Water are able to compete. The CEO’s base salary is far lower than those of many other comparative water and utility companies throughout the United Kingdom.

The Presiding Officer

We move to general and constituency supplementaries.

Journalism (Resourcing)

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

The news of 450 jobs being cut at Reach plc is deeply concerning, and it speaks to the wider issue of resourcing in journalism. Does the First Minister agree that, with senior executives withdrawing bonuses in the millions of pounds while hard-working journalists are thrown on the scrapheap, the real loser in that is our democracy?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Yes, I whole-heartedly agree with that. Reports of any job losses are, of course, concerning, especially for the workers involved and their families. More than that, in this particular case, we know that a free, vibrant and independent press is the very bedrock of a functioning democracy. We want to do all that we can to support the sustainability and diversity of journalism in Scotland, so I urge media organisations to invest in the quality journalism that is so important in an open society and not to make the cuts that have been reported, which Rona Mackay is right to raise.

New Routes Home Campaign

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

A protest is happening outside Parliament today for the new routes home campaign, to recognise those who are locked up in hospital. I welcome the families of those patients who are in the gallery, including Tracey and Natalie, who are constituents of mine and are the mother and the sister of Kyle, who has been locked up for 14 years. Hundreds of autistic people and people with learning disabilities are stuck inappropriately in out-of-area placements, hospitals and secure units. Dozens of them have been there for over a decade—a millennium of lost years in captivity. As we approach the March 2024 deadline in “Coming Home Implementation: A report from the working group on complex care and delayed discharge”

, what has the Scottish Government done to get those patients home?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I credit Alexander Burnett, who has raised that issue on many occasions on behalf of his constituents. We as a Government are absolutely committed to delivering the “Coming Home Implementation” recommendations to reduce inappropriate hospital stays and out-of-area placements experienced by people with learning disabilities and complex care needs.

I can ensure that we provide Alexander Burnett with a fuller answer on what we have done, but I will give some examples. We have launched the new dynamic support register, which is one of the key recommendations to improve the local case management of people with learning disabilities and complex care needs. That is a very important step towards achieving the

“Coming Home Implementation”

vision that will help local areas to plan for people with learning disabilities and complex care needs to live in their home communities. We have also developed a practitioner peer support network and a national support panel to support local areas to share best practice, and we have provided £20 million under our community living change fund to integration authorities to design community-based solutions that avoid or limit future hospital use and out-of-area placements.

We all want—I know that

Alexander Burnett will agree with this—to ensure that people are supported to be in a home that is absolutely right for them, and is as close to their family as possible and in their community.

National Health Service (Drugs for Cystic Fibrosis)

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

The First Minister may be aware that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence and the Scottish Medicines Consortium have

determined that cystic fibrosis drugs that are literally life saving will no longer be available on the national health service, because they consider the drugs to be clinically effective but not cost effective. It is important to say, though, that those already receiving Orkambi, Symkevi and Kaftrio will continue to do so, but new patients will not.

The First Minister knows that cystic fibrosis is a life-limiting condition. Will he meet CF families and work with the United Kingdom Government to negotiate a more acceptable cost from the drug manufacturer, Vertex, to literally save lives?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank Jackie Baillie for raising a very important point. We will continue our engagement with drug companies and the UK Government. The Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care regularly meets families that have been impacted and affected.

It is important to reiterate Jackie Baillie’s point that existing patients who are on a treatment for cystic fibrosis will continue to have access to the existing treatments after NICE has issued its final recommendations, irrespective of the outcome. However, I know that discussions are on-going, and I know that the SMC is collaborating with NICE on a joint multiple-technology appraisal of several cystic fibrosis medicines, including Kaftrio. The SMC will publish final recommendations, aligned with NICE guidance, for health boards in Scotland to consider. We will certainly seek to take up the suggestion from Jackie Baillie on conversations and engagement with the drug companies.

British Sign Language National Plan

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

I was delighted to see the new and updated British Sign Language action plan released this past week. I thank the First Minister for his help and support with my continued work in the area. How will the plan support British Sign Language use in Scotland?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I think that all members in the chamber will recognise the incredible work that Karen Adam has done on British Sign Language. I pay tribute to her efforts in that regard.

We are absolutely committed to making Scotland the best place in the world for British Sign Language users to visit and to live, work and learn in. The “British Sign Language National Plan 2023-29” contains 45 actions to help us to meet that ambition. We recognise that, to deliver our aims, we need to ensure that the BSL community is at the very heart of the decision-making process. That is why we are establishing an implementation advisory group to support the plan, hold us to account and inform our thinking in the delivery of each action.

The group will be made up of organisations that represent BSL users, the deaf and the deafblind community. It is important to note that the plan is not static and will continue to evolve to ensure that our actions tackle the barriers that BSL users face in their everyday lives.

Bullying in Schools (Fife)

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Alarming figures from Fife have shown that violence and bullying in our schools is at unprecedented levels. The local authority staff reported almost 3,500 physical attacks and threats in just the past year, and 6,480 pupils reported being bullied during the same period. The response of Fife Council’s anti-bullying policy is that punishing bullying is counterproductive, so nothing will happen.

Does the First Minister agree with that policy? What does he have to say to the thousands of young people in Fife who are victims of bullying?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

For an issue of this magnitude, it is really important that we characterise the situation absolutely correctly and accurately. Roz McCall is right to raise the very worrying issues and concerns that we have about violence and bullying in schools.

The education secretary has had two summits on school behaviour, and another one is due very shortly. She met parents, teaching unions, children’s organisations and representatives right across the education sector on 25 October, when attendees shared their experiences of relationships and behaviour approaches, and discussed potential solutions to ensure safe and consistent environments in schools. That followed the first meeting, which took place in September. The discussions at the events have been constructive. There have been some very good suggestions, which the education secretary will seek to take up.

On the more specific issues that Roz McCall might have, I ask her to continue to engage with the education secretary.

Community Link Workers (Glasgow)

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

Community link worker posts

are set to be reduced from 64 to 42 in Glasgow from next year. This week, one Glasgow general practitioner told the BBC that those cuts could result in lives being lost. I understand that the Government has put a funding offer to the health and social care partnership in Glasgow, but that that was rejected.

Can the First Minister please provide an update on discussions with the health and social care partnership and advise what options remain to save those critical and cost-effective roles in some of our most deprived communities?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I join Paul Sweeney in recognising the importance of community link workers. All of us who have community link workers in our constituencies have seen the invaluable service that they provide. Every single GP practice that I have spoken to sees them as valuable and critical members of their staff.

Paul Sweeney was right to recognise that the Scottish Government has offered additional funding, but that does not seem to be enough, according to the Glasgow city health and social care partnership, to continue the full provision of community link workers. We are continuing to engage with the partnership, and I expect to be able to update Paul Sweeney and others in Parliament who have an interest in the issue at some point next week.

Fireworks-related Disorder

Ash Denham (Alba, Edinburgh Eastern)

The First Minister will be aware of the serious fireworks-related disorder in Niddrie a few days ago. Constituents have written to me and told me about how terrified they were during that time. Will the First Minister join me in condemning the violence, particularly the attacks on our emergency services? I stress that incidents such as those should not be used to talk down the communities that I represent.

Does the First Minister agree that a ban on fireworks is possible only with the full powers of independence? Does he agree that the Government should implement the Fireworks and Pyrotechnic Articles (Scotland) Act 2022 as a matter of urgency? Will he consider additional resources for hotspot areas, such as my constituency of Edinburgh Eastern?

The First Minister

First and foremost, we condemn in the strongest possible manner the violence and the reckless actions that we saw in not just the member’s constituency but other parts of the country. I also pay tribute to our emergency workers, in particular our fire officers and police officers who were on the front line, and I say just how despicable it is that they were under attack in that way.

In relation to a wholesale ban, it is my understanding that that is not within our competency, but we will seek to do more. Whatever we can do with legislation, we will seek to do. That is why we have brought forward legislation and regulations over the years, most recently with regard to the Fireworks and Pyrotechnic Articles (Scotland) Act 2022.

We will continue to work with our local authorities to see what more we can do in relation to additional resource—that is a fair request.

Finally, it should not require Government legislation or regulation for someone to know that they should not fire fireworks at police officers or fire officers. My hope is that those who are responsible and found to be guilty of such behaviour—the police investigation is on-going—will feel the full force of the law.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s questions.

Points of Order

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

You are responsible for protecting the reputation of Parliament. Last night, it was reported that an MSP racked up a bill of £11,000 through data-roaming charges while on holiday—a tab that has been picked up entirely by the taxpayer. For clarity, that is £65 an hour, 24 hours a day, for the seven days that he was on holiday in far-flung Morocco.

The incident has damaged the reputation of the Scottish Parliament, and it is incumbent on you to repair and defend it. Therefore, I urge you to conduct a full investigation into the matter, including publishing the full bill that was incurred by Mr Matheson, to explore why the Parliament has appeared to break its own rules of a cap of £200 on roaming charges by paying the bill entirely, and exploring whether Mr Matheson has broken any parliamentary rules by claiming for such a large sum. Parliament seeks your advice, and our constituents seek your reassurance.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Thank

you, Mr Hoy. Points of order are intended to confirm that correct procedures are or have been followed, therefore that matter is not a point of order. However, if the member wishes to write to me on the matter, I will provide a response.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Pursuant to rule 8.17 of the standing orders, I seek your guidance on how we can seek, pursuant to rule 13.2, a ministerial statement from the Scottish Government law officers regarding questions and answers that were received during First Minister’s question time today. Specific questions have been raised about the redacted and unredacted legal advice that has been sought by the Covid inquiry, and it should be for the law officers to represent what the facts of the case are with regard to the Scottish Government.

The Presiding Officer

I thank Martin Whitfield for his point of order. Under rule 13.2.2, a minister wishing to make an urgent statement may give notice to me and, if I consider the matter sufficiently urgent, I can make an adjustment to the business programme. As yet, I have received no such request.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Are you aware yet of any requests being made by a Scottish minister to make an urgent statement? [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

As I said—perhaps Martin Whitfield did not pick it up—at this point, I have not received any such request.

There will be a short suspension to allow those leaving the chamber and the public gallery to do so before we move to members’ business.

12:50 Meeting suspended.

12:52 On resuming—

Youth Antisocial Behaviour

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-10788, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on the increase in youth antisocial behaviour. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. As ever, I invite members who wish to participate to press their request-to-speak button now or as soon as possible.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament acknowledges the reported concerning increase in youth antisocial behaviour, both in Scotland generally and locally in the Edinburgh Southern constituency; shares its concern with the reported experiences of local businesses in the Edinburgh Southern constituency and, in particular, local retail and entertainment venues around the New Market Road area, where, it understands, a supermarket chain’s experience of antisocial behaviour is among the highest nationally; notes the reported impact that such an increase in youth antisocial behaviour is having on both the public's and retail workers’ safety; praises the work done by the police to tackle this issue in light of the reported increasing workforce pressures that the force is facing, and notes the calls on the Scottish Government to do all that it can to address this issue.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

I thank members for signing my motion.

This is a difficult issue. From what we have heard from members across the chamber, it has been clear for a number of months that youth antisocial behaviour is increasing. There might be a broad range of reasons for that, and there might be complex issues at play. It is certainly the case that, post Covid, many of our young people have been struggling to adjust and to deal with the issues that are consequential to that.

However, we must be frank and clear when such behavioural issues occur. Our constituents might well understand that these are complex social issues, but they also want candour and clarity about what is happening and frankness about the steps that can be taken to address these matters.

I come to this issue, having successfully brought forward a member’s bill to deal with the issue of violence and abuse against shop workers. As I did that, it became clear to me that this was an issue that was growing in seriousness and that we had to take steps. I am very pleased to say that, since the introduction and coming into force of the Protection of Workers (Retail and Age-restricted Goods and Services) (Scotland) Act 2021, 3,500 charges have been brought under it.

Speaking to shop workers, unions and retailers, it has also become clear to me that we are seeing an increased incidence of such violent attacks and abuse. There is a growing pattern within that of youth antisocial behaviour, with youths abusing shop workers and causing violent and disruptive incidents in stores.

I think that that is part of a wider pattern, because I have noted in my casework an increasing array of different incidents and patterns of behaviour that are of deep concern to me. They include seemingly innocuous incidents such as eggs being thrown. However, when the threshold is crossed—there have been incidents in which young mothers pushing prams have been attacked by youths with eggs—it stops being trivial and starts being serious. There have also been incidents of persistent vandalism by groups of youths that have led to arson.

In recent weeks and months, there have been situations in which youths in balaclavas have massed in ranks and taunted police officers, seemingly with impunity. Most recently, there have been the incidents that the member for Edinburgh Eastern alluded to earlier. She is quite right. I do not think that we should be holding up any particular community to scrutiny, because I am very clear that the issues that we are talking about affect all communities across Edinburgh. Frankly, my observation is that youth antisocial behaviour is just as much of a problem in Morningside as it is in Niddrie. I do not think that family background is necessarily the indicator here, and I think that that hints at some of the issues that lie at the heart of the problem.

We are seeing a pattern of behaviour by groups of youths. They are not necessarily numerous, but they are persistent. We also need to recognise that, although free bus passes for young people provide a huge opportunity and are of huge benefit, they are being abused by a minority. Some of the young people in question are travelling quite long distances and causing a broad range of problems in different places.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

Does Daniel Johnson agree that we need to look at how such a privilege that is given to our youth can be taken away when their behaviour dictates that that should happen?

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

T

he member raises a very important point, which I will come to shortly, once I have rounded off the point that I am making.

The third strand of the phenomenon that we are seeing is the use of social media. It is definitely the case that young people are seeing behaviours and copying them, and social media is playing a part in that.

When I talk to the police, I get a sense of deep frustration, and that frustration is twofold. First, the police are as frustrated as community members and retail workers about their ability to attend such incidents when they occur. They also ask whether they have the powers to intervene that they might need.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I am enjoying Daniel Johnson’s contribution. I take him back to his earlier point about the number of charges that there has been under his legislation—I think that he said that there had been about 3,500. Does he have any idea what happens after such a charge and what the outcomes are? It seems to me that that is crucial both in that context and in the context of the present discussion.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

It is fair to say that there is an emerging picture there. First, there is the issue of the backlog of court cases, which has undoubtedly impeded things. Secondly—and understandably—sometimes prosecutors do not pursue the charges under my act, because they wish to pursue more serious charges, particularly those that might carry a higher tariff. As a result, not every instance of a charge being brought under my legislation is resulting in a conviction. There are a number of reasons for that, some of which are understandable and some of which are of greater concern.

As for our response to this issue, I will set out three broad principles. First, we absolutely all agree that we must have prevention and progressive responses such as diversion practice. However, those require investment and resource.

Secondly—and this addresses Brian Whittle’s question—I absolutely believe that people have rights, but with those rights come responsibilities. We need to question what happens when those rights are abused.

Thirdly, we must focus on measures that are preventative and which seek to divert, but we must also ask ourselves what happens when such interventions and diversions do not work. What actions and steps can we take?

There are also a number of questions that we need to ask ourselves. First, what impact has the closure of youth services and youth initiatives had? Everyone is clear that those things play a clear role. There has been a decline in the funding for them, and that has had an impact.

Secondly, are the right interventions available? If young people are abusing their bus passes to do some of these things, should those bus passes be suspended for a period?

We understand about the sort of non-criminal justice interventions that we have in the home—

Ruth Maguire (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

Will the member accept an intervention?

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

I do not have much time.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please be brief, Ms Maguire.

Ruth Maguire (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

I invite the member to reflect on whether removing a child’s ability to travel might prevent them from attending work, or the youth clubs that he spoke about, which can be diversionary from antisocial behaviour.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please start concluding, Mr Johnson.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

I am not being categorical. I am simply asking a question, but I do not think that we can continue allowing someone to use their bus pass without asking whether it is being used for nefarious purposes.

We are very clear about the interventions that can be made in schools or at home and which do not fall into the category of criminal justice. When young people make a mess or cause a disturbance, we ask them to clear that up, so I wonder whether we might think about non-criminal-justice interventions that would absolutely ensure that certain actions have consequences.

Finally, there has been an understandable focus on creating centralised and specialised functions within Police Scotland. However, I get a sense from talking to police officers that we might not have the balance right, with resources perhaps being taken away from response officers and community policing. The question is: do we have that balance right?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We move to the open debate.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

I thank Daniel Johnson for securing the debate. His motion refers to the impact that antisocial behaviour and youth disorder have on businesses in his Edinburgh Southern constituency. I sympathise with that. I am not going to talk about Edinburgh Southern, but I will talk about things that have happened in my area—I know that this is an issue that every member will have had to deal with.

Following discussion with some retailers about antisocial behaviour, I carried out a survey with businesses around Greenock West train station in my constituency. The results indicated that even having people loitering outside a shop can put others off from entering. I shared the information with local stakeholders to help them to better understand shopkeepers’ concerns and to find ways to address them. There has also been a problem with boy racers in the car park at Tesco Greenock after the shop closes. Residents are disturbed at all hours by noise and by headlights flashing into adjacent homes.

Youth disorder and antisocial behaviour can take many forms. For example, Inverclyde is served by 13 train stations, and youths tend to congregate at locations that they can access by train. That is different from what happens in parts of the country where youths travel by bus. In my area, they mostly use trains. Young people gather at Parklea, near Woodhall station, at the McDonald’s near Port Glasgow station and at Inverkip Harbourside, which is a short walk from Inverkip station. The Inverclyde rail network plays a key role in the movement of youths. Most just want to spend some time with their pals, but a very small cohort want to cause trouble.

I was keen to take part in this debate in order to highlight the good partnership working to deal with youth disorder in Inverclyde, because, although I sympathise with Mr Johnson’s concerns, his motion does not offer any local solutions to the issues. As MSPs, we have a role to play in trying to help.

I am not saying that we have a magic cure in Inverclyde, and I am certainly not saying that we have eradicated youth disorder, but we have made some significant strides this year in dealing with issues at Inverkip Harbourside, and I attribute that to joint working by local stakeholders.

There have been two actions. First, for more than five years, I have convened a group consisting of representatives from the local community council, ward councillors, Police Scotland, the British Transport Police, community wardens, ScotRail and some local residents to focus on the issue. That has led to targeted work at local train stations to prevent people from heading down to the Harbourside area. There has been no party politics, because the issue is about community safety and the safety of the young people themselves. That localised approach has certainly been helpful.

The second action has come via a partnership hub in Inverclyde that is headed up by Police Scotland. It involves partners from the police, Inverclyde Council, local registered social landlords, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and representatives from health and social care—as well as others, when required—with the aim of dealing with antisocial behaviour, including youth disorder, in Inverclyde. The Minister for Victims and Community Safety recently took up my invitation to visit the partnership, and she was impressed by the approach that has been taken in Inverclyde.

Youth disorder in Inverkip in my constituency has been a problem for many years. It often dissipates and then spikes again, with it typically coinciding with good weather. However, during a debate on this subject, it is important to point out that we were all young once. At some point in our past, we probably all made some mistakes.

We probably also attended gatherings where the vast majority of individuals behaved well but a small minority did not. Sadly, such situations can lead to those who were not looking for trouble being dragged in. In such instances, Inverclyde Council sends out parent alert letters to address the issue. Parents are told that their child was at a certain location on a certain night when youth disorder took place. The young person might have had nothing to do with any of the disorder, but they could have been dragged into it inadvertently. The letters are sent to make parents aware of the situation and to encourage them to check up on where their kids actually are.

I am aware of the time, so I will finish by returning to the partnership hub. The focus on Inverkip before and during the summer led to a vast reduction in youth disorder. I thank everyone involved and pass on the thanks of my constituents, who have been in contact with me. That approach will continue, and other areas that are affected by youth disorder can address the problem in a similar successful way.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

I thank Daniel Johnson for securing this important debate, and I concur with many of the points that he made.

At the outset, it is important to note that the vast majority of young people in Scotland are thoughtful, caring and kind, even if, like all of us at that age, they are a little boisterous at times. They should not all be tarred with the same brush, because it is only a very small minority of young people who commit antisocial behaviour offences that are sometimes extreme in nature.

However, the good behaviour of the many should not act as a smokescreen to avoid talking about the extreme behaviour of the small minority who make people’s lives a misery on a daily basis. We cannot turn a blind eye to the mindless thuggery and antisocial behaviour of those groups, who run rampant, safe in the knowledge that, even if they are arrested, they are very unlikely to be prosecuted and even less likely to go to jail.

This summer, a significant number of incidents of youth-related antisocial behaviour were reported to me across the south of Scotland—in Haddington, Prestonpans, Longniddry, East Linton and Peebles in the Scottish Borders. Cars were damaged, pensioners were targeted, houses were egged, property was vandalised, young people were attacked and weapons were used.

At Linn Rocks in East Linton, a large group of young people from as far afield as Edinburgh—who were abusing their access to free bus travel—gathered to drink alcohol and consume drugs. They harassed and verbally and physically threatened passers-by. However, the community did not take that lying down. Working with the council’s antisocial behaviour team and Police Scotland, I convened a number of meetings to drive a cross-agency, cross-community approach. Realising the extent of community concerns, Police Scotland took a zero-tolerance approach, and I thank Chief Inspector Ben Leathes for that intervention.

Those actions showed the benefits of a well-organised local authority response, which included East Lothian Council locating a temporary closed-circuit television camera in East Linton. Young people were handcuffed and removed from the area. The community breathed a sigh of relief but, sadly, as is the case with so many other incidents, the problem was displaced, not solved.

Our police are overstretched and woefully underresourced, so they are unable to respond in that way to every case of antisocial behaviour in our communities. In Haddington, there have been reports of underage hooded youths causing damage to shops and abusing and threatening staff because they refused to sell them alcohol. Windows were smashed and two staff members resigned after receiving death threats.

Data has revealed that, between April and June this year, the number of bobbies on the beat in East Lothian dropped to its lowest level since 2008. At the same time, 1,352 incidents of antisocial behaviour were reported.

The effects of incidents of antisocial behaviour have also been felt across the Scottish Borders. In Peebles, sadly, a man in his 80s had his car windscreen smashed and was beaten up. Schoolgirls were kicked in the face and videoed by the perpetrators—a practice that is, sadly, now all too common in such incidents. In Peebles, a total of 56 calls relating to antisocial behaviour were made in the second quarter of this year.

It is unacceptable that, as a result of such behaviour, people in Borders towns have felt unsafe in their communities. That is not the fault of our communities or the police. The buck stops with the Scottish National Party. It has left our police service underresourced since coming to power 16 years ago.

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

Craig Hoy has made some important points in his contribution so far, but does he not agree that, given that these issues are complex and challenging and that they affect many communities, we all need to take responsibility for finding the solutions together?

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

Absolutely. I reflect on what happened in East Linton, where people in the community came together with the police and the council to resolve the problem. However, sadly, when I speak to the police, they say that, because of 15 years of SNP neglect, they are simply unable to go into communities in the way that they once were.

Another issue is that, as a result of the lack of policing, many of the youths now believe that they are untouchable. They can repeat the same crimes in the same places time and again. Councils across the south of Scotland are equally underresourced. Despite their best efforts, their antisocial behaviour teams and community wardens are severely overstretched.

As antisocial behaviour incidents intensify, we owe our police, our councils and our communities more than just warm words. We owe them the financial support, the legal framework and a justice system that allows them to do their job. However, sadly, on this and on so many other problems that Scotland faces today, the SNP’s priorities lie elsewhere.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I am grateful to Daniel Johnson for bringing the motion to Parliament. I also congratulate him on his speech, which was very measured.

I will not be unique in the chamber. My inbox is full of my constituents’ concerns about this issue, and what they have had to say has been less measured than the remarks by Daniel Johnson.

I have been working with a number of people on this issue for all of the two and a half years that I have been in Parliament. On Monday, I visited one couple’s home, and I received an email this morning about the 89th incident that has occurred in the property next door to them, which is occupied by a young person. Last night, at about 12.25 am, the police turned up on the doorstep, thumping the door and banging on the windows to try to gain access, because they had been called by the occupant of that house on the basis of a threat to life. I do not know what number I said earlier, but it is the 84th occasion on which that has happened. The incident also involved the Scottish Ambulance Service, which is not untypical.

The banging and noise go on until 20 to 1; people are trying to gain entry, but they cannot get in. At 5 past 1, more police arrive, and there is more banging. At a quarter to 2, before the cars go away, they force the door, and the council workmen—bless their cotton socks—arrive at 7 minutes past 2 in the morning.

That is just not acceptable. That kind of behaviour is intolerable, and yet we have nothing in place to deal with it. Lives are being made miserable. The lives of that couple, who live in Bonnybridge, are being made hell; the lady has health issues and the husband is being driven to the very edge by the neighbour’s behaviour. However, we seem to have a police force that is unwilling or unable to act. We often seem to have prosecutors who come across as not being very interested in the rights of victims—that has been my own experience—and we have a judicial system that seems unable to protect communities from violence and fear.

We do not do our young people or the future any favours by not establishing boundaries and saying what is right and what is wrong. Those boundaries are very clear when it comes to behaviour. Some young people are growing up, believing that they can get away with just about anything, and they are more than happy to tell people, whether they be police officers or teachers, their rights—we should ask teachers and police officers about that—because they have no fear of detection or sanction. The police lack the resources to deal with that; the prosecutors probably do not have the resources, either; and the judicial system is almost at breaking point.

However, we must establish boundaries so that young people know what is expected of them and how to live in a civilised society. We have a tradition of civilised living together in our society, and stepping outside of those boundaries must come with consequences. Daniel Johnson called for frank discussion about these issues. These are the things that the people of Scotland are saying. They want to see boundaries and consequences. There must be discouragement for those who are offending and repeat offending.

Those boundaries, clearly, begin at home. Parents are the first line in giving young people a sense of a moral compass and of what is right and what is wrong. Too often, however, the apparatus of Government in Scotland, in one form or another, makes parents second-guess themselves as to whether they are doing the right thing by teaching their children boundaries and what right and wrong are. We must reverse that trend, which so many people feel is happening in our society, by helping and supporting families, not hindering and undermining them.

At First Minister’s question time, my colleague Roz McCall highlighted this week’s news from Fife Council, where those responsible for the eradication of bullying in the public school system said that we should not do anything to upset the bullies. Where are we going?

I appreciate that my time is up. I will conclude by saying that if we think that what we have been doing is going to remedy the situation, we need to think again. We need change, we need boundaries, and we need a sense of right and wrong. There need to be consequences and sanctions.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

The scenes in Edinburgh and across other parts of Scotland, as described across the chamber today, are hugely concerning. That concern has perhaps been most acutely felt this past month, with Halloween and bonfire night, which appear to be pinch points for such instances of antisocial behaviour. Attacks on police and the misuse of fireworks have seen residents scared to leave their homes. They have led to unacceptable scenes on our streets, and it is right that there must be investigations and assessments of what has happened and why.

We should not see such pinch points within the year as being one off or isolated. As we have heard from colleagues, problems with antisocial behaviour seem to persist at all times of the year and in all parts of the country. I am grateful to my friend Daniel Johnson for bringing this debate to the chamber, because it gives us an opportunity to express the concerns of our communities and to explore, in a constructive way, some of the solutions that we might be able to put forward.

The West Scotland region is affected by antisocial behaviour and violence in many communities. Indeed, I have heard at first hand from constituents about its blight on their lives. In May, there was a spike in antisocial behaviour in Barrhead, and residents felt completely cut off and isolated in many ways due to the behaviour that was taking place in parts of the town. Residents have repeatedly complained about being assaulted in the town centre at night, particularly outside the local Asda store and the local Foundry leisure centre and library. In fact, a group of young people has repeatedly targeted security staff and customers at the Asda in Barrhead and at the Foundry.

Last month, in the neighbouring village of Neilston, there was a reported increase in the number of such incidents, with eggs and stones being thrown at properties. That might seem fairly low level, but just this morning, I spoke to a new young mother, who had found it intimidating when her car was attacked with eggs. Just before Halloween, McGill’s, the local bus company, was forced to suspend services at 5 pm on two routes through the Auchenback estate in Barrhead, because of violent incidents against its drivers and buses. We can see the real impact of such antisocial behaviour, with the communities that I have referred to being cut off.

I have written to the area commander for the police and have engaged with the council to try to work out what the solutions might be. I have also written to the minister, and I hope that she will be able to engage with that correspondence and say what more support can be given by Government to help agencies that are working in the community. I recognise what Daniel Johnson said about the mix of approaches that we need to take in dealing with this.

There is, of course, an issue with police resourcing. Police Scotland will say that it wants to take a multi-agency approach and ensure that it is trauma informed, but that can often be a challenge for the other services involved, which are struggling with resourcing and the availability of staff. Local authorities have had huge cuts to their funding, affecting not only diversionary activities such as youth services but, more fundamentally, social work services. Many young people have traumatic and chaotic lives; they come from families who are not getting the right support, because social workers are always having to respond to crises and are not able to do the more in-depth work that can help divert young people away or to approach them in their own settings.

The Government’s response has been to issue the document “Reviewing Scotland’s Approach to Antisocial Behaviour”. I noted two of its recommendations. The first recognised that a long-term approach is needed, which I think all members in the chamber would acknowledge. The second is that an expert group be convened. I welcome such a proposal, and agree that we should all engage in it, but my concern is that we cannot just say that we are taking a long-term approach, leave the issue to another working group and not see any tangible action.

I am conscious of the time, so I will leave members with that thought. I am keen that the minister should, if she is able to do so, lay out in her closing remarks where that group will go and what tangible action it will take.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

It is timely to have the chance to speak in the debate, given the shocking behaviour that took place across our capital city over the weekend. On Sunday, riot police in Edinburgh spent bonfire night battling fireworks and petrol bombs—I stress the use of petrol bombs. Police Scotland said that its officers experienced an unprecedented level of violence as they tried to tackle the disorder. They were called to the Niddrie area of Edinburgh on Sunday evening, following reports of antisocial use of fireworks against residents. The riot police, which were part of operation Moonbeam, were then sent in to assist local officers. It is believed that around 50 people were involved in clashes with the police, who came under attack from

“fireworks, petrol bombs and other projectiles.”

The level of disturbance in Niddrie was unacceptable and, frankly, disgusting.

Only four weeks ago, in my column in the local paper, I wrote about the impact of the SNP’s budget cuts and how repeated cost cutting had slashed the number of front-line officers and was contributing to a rise in antisocial behaviour. The events of bonfire night demonstrate, once again, that a hardcore element is determined not only to challenge authority but to positively revel in making ordinary people feel uncomfortable in their own homes and communities. The riot in Niddrie was only the most visible and shocking flashpoint, but outbreaks of antisocial behaviour across the city have meant that police and fire services resources have been stretched to their limits, and they have come under attack across the wider region. With our police stretched to breaking point, the criminals knew that they could get away with it, frankly.

Earlier this week, my constituent Ian, who is a retired police officer, wrote to me to express his concern following the weekend’s events. He said:

“As I predicted, the new legislation is utterly toothless. Pushing down decision making (and blame) to local authorities to create exclusion zones is now proven not to work, especially when there is a greatly reduced police service. The 5th?of November is now seen as an opportunity to indulge in anarchy and the problem, in my opinion, will only get worse if left unchallenged or unchanged.”

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

I agree that everything that happened last weekend was abhorrent on every level. Does the member recognise that, because of the legislation on offences against emergency workers that has come in, 61 people were charged last year? So far, only two people have been charged with offences relating to last weekend, but investigations are on-going and we expect that more will be charged shortly.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

I ask the minister to say in her closing remarks, if she can do so, what were the outcomes of the charges against the individuals who attacked our emergency workers. That is the problem. Petrol bombs were being thrown. I am sorry, but those are not covered in the fireworks legislation at all.

The same policeman told me how much time he had spent dealing with antisocial behaviour and that he considers a ban on fireworks to be a prerequisite. As he said, for some people, 5 November seems to be an excuse for creating mayhem. Giving the police the resources to deal with it would benefit us all year round, for we can all agree that, sadly, antisocial behaviour is not limited to this time of year.

On Friday, I met a father called Niko, who lives in Currie. He was at the end of his tether. His family has been targeted for more than a year by a group of four youths who, dressed in black with hoods up, regularly throw eggs, tins of beans and traffic cones at his possessions, his car and his home. I have seen the shocking videos of that happening. Niko and his family feel that they cannot relax at home. Now that the nights are darker, they will not use the living room at the front of their house or leave the light on, as that encourages those youths more.

The night before Niko came to see me, his local neighbourhood watch group met to discuss the incidents and whether there was anything that they could do. The father of one of the boys who is tormenting Niko’s family came along as well. The school, the police and the parents all feel that their hands are tied. The police are already involved and have been to the house of one of the boys many times. The father of that boy is at his wits’ end and does not feel as though there is anything that he can do about disciplining his son.

On Friday, I will meet the police in the south-west of Edinburgh and will raise that situation and many of the incidents that I have in my case load. Earlier this week, the Minister for Victims and Community Safety, Siobhian Brown, announced a new independent working group to tackle antisocial behaviour. We are already hearing of potential recommendations linked to the confiscation of, or curfews for, the bus passes for under-22s. However, one thing is clear: there is only one group of people who like a working group more than the SNP, and that is the criminals.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

I congratulate Daniel Johnson on bringing the debate to the chamber and on his thoughtful introduction to it.

In September 2022, Stagecoach said that it would no longer run evening services from Kilmarnock bus station due to antisocial behaviour that was perpetrated by our youth. Gangs were using the free bus pass to travel to other areas to engage in that behaviour. In April 2023, a teenager who attempted to stab a 14-year-old boy to death with a broken bottle at Kilmarnock bus station was jailed for more than four years. In October 2023, a Kilmarnock bus station security worker was left with a broken nose after being assaulted by two teenagers, who were subsequently arrested and charged in connection with the incident and will appear in court.

Daniel Johnson mentioned Covid, which has had an impact on our youth. The lack of social skills could be a driver of some of the violence. Access to youth clubs, scouts, guides, sport, music and art, which I have discussed many times in the chamber, was taken away. Those activities encourage our youth to behave better. They are about self-worth, confidence, resilience and aspiration.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I agree with what Brian Whittle says, but there is also a need for a clear understanding of where the line is between good behaviour and bad behaviour and that consequences flow from bad behaviour. It might not be the kind of discussion that some members in the Parliament want to hear, but that is what the people of Scotland think, and it is what they want to happen.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

I do not deny that. There should be consequences to bad behaviour, but there is another side to the coin: we have to create an environment in which we can instil better behaviour. The types of activities that I mentioned enable youth to understand the benefits of working with others and give them the benefit of learning about hard work and understanding where the boundaries lie.

Over a longer time, council funding, funding for our third sector—which is crucial in relation to the issue—and even the funding in our education system, where a lot of the interventions that I have discussed begin, has been eroded. The erosion of that funding is a false economy, as we can see from recent antisocial behaviour. When we do not spend money on one page of a ledger, we need to spend it on another page of the ledger, as we saw with the horrific scenes in Edinburgh.

I have spoken previously about my life experience and my diverse group of friends from such a variety of backgrounds—you could not meet a more diverse group. We were introduced to each other through our intervention with sport, and our lives have been shaped by sport and by the shared togetherness that has come through our passion for sport.

We need to ensure that an opportunity to do that—whatever opportunity it may be—is available for our youth and that it is accessible to all. One side of the coin is about ensuring that there are repercussions for bad behaviour, but it is not just about that—the other side of the coin is that we have to have opportunities available if we want to ensure that our youth can participate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I am conscious of the number of members who still want to participate in the debate. To allow that to happen, I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[

Daniel Johnson

]

Motion agreed to.

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

I also want to start by thanking Daniel Johnson for bringing this very important issue to the chamber, and for allowing us to consider the challenge of bad behaviour generally in our society.

It is not only an issue in Edinburgh Southern, it is not only an issue in Edinburgh—as others have alluded to—and it is not only an issue in Scotland; other parts of the UK face challenges, too.

The truth that we need to acknowledge, which other members have also emphasised, is that most young people behave well and do good things. Our young people have grown up in a challenging time. There was the financial crash and its consequences, austerity, the pandemic and the cost of living crisis and there is war in the world. It is also true, however, that there are, rightly, concerns about a minority of young people who are engaging in very challenging antisocial behaviour, and we cannot underplay those. I fear that the behaviour is getting worse.

There is the behaviour in our schools, which has been discussed and which the Government has on-going work on. The behaviour is happening on our streets and in shops. Others have talked about the challenges when it comes to big supermarkets, but it is also an issue for small-to-medium enterprises in our communities. For example, Argonaut Books in Leith had hundreds of pounds worth of damage caused to it by a small minority of young people coming in and throwing eggs around the shop.

It is a huge issue and, as Daniel Johnson rightly argued, a complex one. There is a broad range of reasons for the phenomenon. It is a trend influenced by social media and it has been shown on occasion to be influenced by organised crime.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

I am very grateful to the member for taking an intervention. I cannot disagree with anything that he has said so far, but does he agree that during that period of time there has also been an erosion of community spirit, coupled with a rise in poor mental health, and that that

complex web is contributing to this kind of behaviour?

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

That is absolutely true, and it goes back to the context that I mentioned around the financial challenges and the pressures on our society. Our young people have grown up in households that are experiencing pressure and communities that are feeling a collective sense of depression and a lack of optimism because of the position that we are in.

The demand on the state to respond to that is difficult, particularly in the financial circumstances that the UK and Scotland face. The Scottish Government has acted proactively and with initiative, with higher funding for the police service than is the case elsewhere in the UK, the support that it has tried to provide to the Crown Office, the violence reduction unit, Community Justice Scotland, cashback initiatives and increased spending for mental health.

However, there is more to be done, and within that is the challenge of balancing rights and the need to work with partners. I have to say that where I have seen an impact in my constituency, particularly in north Edinburgh, youth work organisations working collaboratively have made the biggest difference.

I have to be honest and say that most of the funding for that has come from trusts and private sources. Therefore, the main message that I want to emphasise is that, yes, there are criminal justice aspects to this issue, but, most importantly, youth work works. The more resource we can find for youth work initiatives in our communities, the bigger the difference we can make.

Lastly, I think that we should have more time to debate the issue in the chamber, because there is a wider challenge about behaviour in our society. Some are to blame, but all of us are responsible. We can all do more—including, I would argue, in this chamber—by looking to set the best example that we can.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I am pleased to contribute to the debate and thank Daniel Johnson for securing it. I acknowledge the acute concerns that the motion refers to and I agree that antisocial behaviour by youths is very much on the increase. That is the case not just in Mr Johnson’s Edinburgh constituency but across my region of Mid Scotland and Fife. The sheer scale is deeply worrying and such incidents continue to be reported.

As we have heard, that was borne out over the weekend in the horrific scenes that we saw in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee, where antisocial behaviour and fireworks became a toxic cocktail and emergency service personnel were once again targeted in their line of duty. It was absolutely appalling and I look forward to hearing what the minister says in her summing up.

Only recently in my region, the

Alloa and Hillfoots Advertiser

highlighted that police patrols were having to be increased in Tillicoultry and Alloa following a rise in youth-related antisocial behaviour. I am extremely concerned at that rise, and that individuals as young as between 12 and 15 were roaming the streets with weapons. Such incidents of antisocial behaviour have been most prevalent in the high streets and town centres. The most worrying was when young individuals were spotted in the early hours wearing masks and attempting to intimidate workers and people who were making local deliveries. Similar reports have come from Stirling city centre. I have long been a supporter of calls for initiatives to ensure the utmost safety for retail and delivery workers, along with our emergency services personnel.

However, the phenomenon is now moving to another level, and there has been talk of the free bus travel for under-22s being questioned. I have had a number of contacts from constituents suggesting that some individuals might be abusing that facility. However, I believe that it is still a minority of youths who are jumping at the opportunity to travel further and create antisocial behaviour in different areas.

Recently, I was delighted to learn of a Clackmannanshire gentleman, Craig McIntosh, who is becoming a peer mentor with a view to engaging with young people. He is focusing on alternative pathways for individuals who have shown risky behaviour in Stirling city centre. I believe that the post was funded by Stirling Community Enterprise, Go Forth Stirling business improvement district and Police Scotland and that the majority of the funding has come from the Stirlingshire Voluntary Enterprise community justice fund.

That is a real opportunity to show that peer mentoring can draw on people’s past experiences and pass them on to the next generation. That role is an opportunity to help young people to turn their lives around. I wish Mr McIntosh all encouragement as he takes forward that project. It is important that we see further projects like that happening across the community. We have heard about the voluntary sector doing such work and that needs to be advanced.

Police Scotland remains desperately underfunded and undermanned, which risks the force being undermined, as we have heard today. There is a legal responsibility on parents and guardians to ensure that young people in their care are not exposed to likely harm. That harm comes in the form of not only mental and physical harm to themselves but harm to others and antisocial behaviour. Police Scotland also needs to robustly enforce legislation to ensure that individuals who perpetrate any such offences are tackled with the full force of the law to ensure that they stop and that they know how the land lies.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I thank Daniel Johnson for bringing the debate to the chamber. It seems, from what we have heard, that antisocial behaviour is a problem right across Scotland. I want to share briefly the experience of what is happening right now in Aberdeen.

This year, the number of incidents of antisocial behaviour in Union Square, Aberdeen’s main city centre shopping centre, which joins on to the bus station, has surged, with some truly shocking incidents being reported. The

Press and Journal

told the story of a whistleblower worker, who said:

“What’s happening is wrong. Union Square is the most hostile and dangerous place I have ever worked.”

He went on to describe how the toilets have become party rooms, where kids as young as 12 lock themselves away

“to drink, roll joints and even have underage sex.”

He also told of a shopping trolley being thrown off the multistorey car park, nearly striking a woman below.

Police have been drafted in to try to train security guards, and senior officers are working closely with Union Square management to equip businesses with the right tools to handle youngsters who are hell bent on wreaking havoc. However, security guards and shop owners seem confused as to what action they can take. Often, they are concerned that, if they were to manhandle a youth out of their shop, they may be charged.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Douglas Lumsden is making an excellent speech, but it is very troubling. He mentions shop workers and others not knowing how to deal with youth who are causing these difficulties. That is doubly, or triply, true of teachers. They desperately need clear guidance on what they can and cannot do, but they are not getting it. The Government is putting that off, with more talk and less action.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I completely agree with Stephen Kerr—teachers, as well as shop owners, need to be assured that they will not be penalised for protecting themselves or their business.

It is worrying that, from what we have heard today, this type of behaviour seems to be on the increase across Scotland. I call on the devolved Government to urgently carry out a piece of work to understand whether such behaviour is actually on the increase, and to try to understand the reasons behind it.

Daniel Johnson and Craig Hoy suggested that free bus travel may be having an impact. I agree with Sue Webber that the pressure on police resources is partly to blame, and the freeze on police recruitment will only make these matters worse.

Whatever the cause, the devolved Government needs to act. This behaviour by groups of people is making places feel unsafe and threatening the viability of some businesses, driving people away from our city centres and putting our shop workers into situations that they should never have to deal with. It is those workers that I want to finish on.

It was reported that the Nespresso store in Union Square closed after workers said that they faced assault and sexual harassment. We need to act—more needs to be done. Again, I thank Daniel Johnson for bringing this matter before us today, and I look forward to hearing what action the Government will take to tackle the problem.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

First, I thank Daniel Johnson for raising this important issue, and I thank everybody who has taken part in the debate. I also thank Daniel Johnson for all his historical work for the protection of retail workers.

I have appreciated hearing from members about how their constituencies have been affected by antisocial behaviour. The incidents in some constituencies, especially last weekend, were deeply concerning and were—quite rightly—raised in the chamber earlier this week. Many are still under investigation by the police, who are treating those matters with the seriousness and severity that they deserve.

I recognise that, as we know, and as Craig Hoy and Ben Macpherson acknowledged in their contributions, the vast majority of young people are not involved in antisocial behaviour, nor in the justice system.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

That is just not true. It is the vast majority of young people who are the biggest victims of this behaviour, because they are often living in fear themselves, at school and in other places where they should be safe. The minister simply says, “Oh, the majority behave themselves”—which they do—“and are not affected,” but that is just not the case.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

I disagree—I would say that the majority of youth are not perpetrators of antisocial behaviour.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

No, they are the victims of it.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

It is a small minority. Indeed, many people who take part in antisocial behaviour are not youths. It is unacceptable behaviour by a minority in our society. Regardless of who is involved, I am clear that everybody has the right to be and feel safe in their community. That is what is set out in our justice vision for Scotland, and I know that that view is shared by members across the chamber. Everyone has the right to go about their business, work and home life in safety and without fear.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

We heard from Ben Macpherson a story about youths going into a shop and throwing eggs. What action could the shopkeeper take in that instance without any fear being charged?

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

After any such incident, they should call the police in the first instance.

Some of the events from the past weekend put innocent people in our communities at risk and put those setting the fires and throwing the projectiles at risk. Attacks against those whose job it is to keep our communities safe are never acceptable, and I am grateful to Police Scotland, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and their partners for their bravery in going about their job and for their professional response to such dangerous and thoughtless behaviour.

Members have referred to the abuse that shop staff face and the theft of items from shops and businesses. Again, that is not acceptable. I urge any affected business or individual to contact the police, who continue to focus on keeping our communities safe from harm and on investigating criminal activity.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

I absolutely agree with the minister that people working in shops should contact the police in such situations. The problem is that they very often do not get a response. It is not because the police do not want to respond but because, quite simply, there are not enough response officers available to do that. Does the minister agree that we need to look again at the balance between central specialised resource and the number of officers that we have in local divisions doing response and community work?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I can give you

the time back.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

W

e are reviewing—I will come to this later in my speech—how we address this increase in antisocial behaviour, but I agree with the member.

As police are often the first line of response to such disorder, policing continues to be a priority for the Scottish Government. We are investing £1.45 billion in policing in 2023-24, which is an increase of 6.3 per cent, and an additional £80 million in the resource budget. I have heard members say in the debate that there have been police cuts, but that is not accurate.

Police Scotland is strengthening its approach to dealing with acquisitive crime, including shoplifting, through the sharing of regional best practice and through taking the lead role in the Scottish partnership against acquisitive crime. The partnership draws together key organisations from across society to provide a robust multi-agency approach to acquisitive crime and support activity at local level, which is so important. The partnership includes Police Scotland, the Scottish Government and Retailers Against Crime.

As many members are aware, and some have acknowledged in their contributions, Police Scotland and local authorities lead on interventions to address antisocial behaviour at a local level. Partners working on the ground are always best placed to understand the issues that local communities face and how they can best be addressed.

I know that great partnership working is taking place throughout the country, which I very much encourage. I recently visited the Inverclyde partnership hub to learn first hand about key agencies such as the police, local authorities, social housing associations, the health and social care partnership, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the British Transport Police working together to address antisocial behaviour in the local community.

Earlier this week, I was pleased to publish “Scotland’s approach to antisocial behaviour: review findings”.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Will t

he member take an intervention?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Briefly.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Does the minister think that the freeze in police recruitment will make the issue better or worse?

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

Just for clarity, 1,418 new recruits have joined Police Scotland since 2022.

The review of Scotland’s approach to antisocial behaviour is based on engagement work that the Scottish Government did with the Scottish Community Safety Network to assess the appetite for reviewing our current approach to antisocial behaviour. The report’s findings focus on moving towards a more preventative approach and recognising the importance of preventing antisocial behaviour from occurring in the first place, which will also continue to better tackle antisocial behaviour and provide better support for victims.

Douglas Lumsden, I am not sure whether you are aware of this work—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please speak through the chair.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

—

that is on-going, but I have accepted the recommendations and I am setting up a working group on antisocial behaviour. That will consider the effectiveness of current—

I am sorry—how much time do I have, Presiding Officer?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can give you another minute, minister.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

Okay. In that case, I want to address one issue that was raised time and again regarding bus passes. It is important to remember that most of our young people who travel by bus behave appropriately. The entitlement card is also used to access a variety of national and local public services across Scotland, such as free school meals and cashless catering. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for transport operators to remove cards from card holders due to the impact that that could have—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The minister is concluding her speech.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

—

on access to other services. Furthermore, the Scottish Government has the power to withdraw or suspend a travel card if an eligible person knowingly allows it to be used by another person. The travel scheme does not make provision for blocking cards in response to allegations of antisocial or other inappropriate behaviour.

Tackling allegations of antisocial behaviour is a matter for the police and local authorities. However, we will continue to look at what might be possible and advisable and keep that under review.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you very much, minister. That concludes the debate and I suspend this meeting of Parliament until 2.30.

13:51 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—

Social Justice

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business

this afternoon is portfolio question time, and the portfolio on this occasion is social justice. I remind members that if they wish to ask a supplementary question, they should, during the relevant question, press their request-to-speak button or enter “RTS” in the chat function.

Adult Disability Payment Applications (Processing Time)

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what the current average processing time is for adult disability payment applications. (S6O-02696)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Adult

disability payment statistics are published quarterly. The latest release, covering the period to 31 July 2023, shows that the improvement actions that Social Security Scotland has put in place have reduced the median average processing time for normal rules applications by eight working days. The median average processing time overall, since the benefit was introduced, is 83 working days.

Processing times for cases eligible under the special rules for terminal illness, for some of Scotland’s most vulnerable people, have also been included in that publication for the first time; that shows a median average processing time of two working days.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

For more than 3,500 people,

it took more than 141 days to process their adult disability payment. The average that the cabinet secretary has just set out is way above what was promised in what was set out by the Government. The Department for Work and Pensions, which processes personal independent payments, is doing so faster. How has it got so bad that even the DWP is better than the Scottish Government?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I

am sure that Mr Rennie is well aware that, under the DWP system, a customer—as the DWP calls people—is required to collate their own supporting information. People who have been involved in the DWP process describe that as one of its most stressful aspects. Under the adult disability payment, the collection of supporting information is carried out by Social Security Scotland on behalf of the client. That will take time, for example if information is requested from a health practitioner. That is one of the reasons why it is not appropriate to make a direct comparison between PIP and ADP.

As I said in my first answer, Social Security Scotland has taken a number of actions to improve processing times. I am happy to provide Mr Rennie with the full detail of that in writing.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

What reassurance can the cabinet secretary give that the adult disability payment application process remains fixed to the core founding principles, with fairness, dignity and respect at its heart?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

That

is an important aspect of everything that Social Security Scotland does. One of the aspects of that is demonstrated by the example that I gave to Mr Rennie. It is important that the system was co-designed with people for whom there had been very poor aspects of their care under the DWP—if we can call it care.

However, in the client survey reports from Social Security Scotland, we have seen a high level of satisfaction with the way in which clients’ cases have been dealt with. Clients feel that they have been treated with dignity, fairness and respect.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

I remind members that I am in receipt of PIP.

A number of individuals have been in touch to say that they are being denied their exemption from road tax as a disabled person because they are waiting months to be issued with a certificate of entitlement from Social Security Scotland. Can the cabinet secretary advise whether those delays were anticipated and why nothing has been done to rectify them?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Forgive me, Presiding Officer, but I did not pick up part of Mr Balfour’s question at the start, so I am happy to provide further details in writing if I have not correctly heard his question.

As I said to Mr Rennie, I appreciate that there have been delays in the adult disability payment. I can assure everyone, including Mr Balfour, that any payments that are due are backdated to the time of application. However, as I said, I may not have picked up Mr Balfour’s question correctly. If further details are needed, I am happy to supply those in writing.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

As well as noting the adult disability payment figures, I see that the figures for child disability payment show that, in the first six months of the year—January to June—only 20.3 per cent of cases were processed within the four-month target, and the median processing time has worsened, rising from 91 working days in December 2022 to 102 working days in June 2023. Is it not clear from those statistics, coupled with the figures for adult disability payment,

that the situation is getting worse, and that both people in receipt of ADP and families in receipt of CDP are waiting in limbo for decisions? What will the cabinet secretary do to deal with both those issues?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am happy to provide the same information as I would provide to Mr Rennie on all the actions that Social Security Scotland has undertaken. As I said to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee at a recent appearance, the agency has invited the committee and its members to come up to Dundee to hear detailed information about exactly what has been put in place. It is unfortunate that the committee has not been able to take up that invitation, which has been outstanding for some time, but Mr O’Kane and others would certainly gain a lot of reassurance from such a visit. That would allow us to have a more in-depth and detailed conversation than we can have in these questions and answers. I am happy to say once again on behalf of the agency that it is more than happy to welcome the committee and other members to its headquarters if that would assist in providing much more detailed information about what is taking place to ensure that swift action improves processing times.

Older People in Poverty (Income Maximisation)

Bob Doris (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn)

2. To ask the Scottish Government how it supports older people living in poverty to maximise their income. (S6O-02697)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Ensuring financial security in older age is a key priority for the Government, and we are taking a range of actions to support older people living in low-income households. Those actions include tripling the fuel insecurity fund, free bus travel for everyone over the age of 60, help with energy efficiency through warmer homes Scotland and replacing the Department for Work and Pensions cold weather payment with our new winter heating payment. In addition, our £3.2 million social isolation and loneliness fund is supporting 53 projects across Scotland to help provide warm spaces, hot meals, group activities and fuel payments to people who are most at risk of isolation, including older people.

Bob Doris (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn)

T

he on-going lack of uptake of pension credit in Scotland means that 123,000 of our poorest pensioners are losing out on an average of £3,500 a year. They will also miss out on this month’s £300 cost of living payment. The United Kingdom Government must do more to encourage uptake, given that a recent initiative that it took included only one of Scotland’s 32 local authorities. I acknowledge that this area is a UK Government responsibility, but how can the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland encourage uptake to help tackle pensioner poverty, given the poor track record of the UK Government?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am happy to work with Mr Doris to see whether there is anything else that can be done by Social Security Scotland, which delivers our devolved benefits. However, pension credit is a reserved benefit, as Mr Doris rightly points out.

While the Scottish Government is now on its benefit take-up strategy number 2, there is no such approach from the DWP. However, that does not mean that there is no need for the Scottish Government to ensure that we are doing everything that we can, so we continue to provide funding for income maximisation and welfare and debt advice, and we are committed to increasing the availability of advice within services such as health and education and in community settings. Mr Doris is quite right to encourage people to take up what they are entitled to because, according to the social security principles that we stand on, it is a person’s individual human right to take up their entitlements, and they should be encouraged to apply for what they are eligible for.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

The inequalities of the gender pension gap are well documented, and the situation of the women born in the 1950s who lost out on the state pension has also been well documented through the Women Against State Pension Inequality campaign. When looking to maximise income support for older people living in poverty, what efforts can the Scottish Government make to support the WASPI women?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

That issue is, again,

reserved to Westminster, unfortunately, and the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament do not have the powers to alleviate the injustice that the WASPI women suffer because of the actions that have been taken by successive UK Governments, which is a deep disappointment to me, to the Government and to many members across the chamber. I hope that some of the actions and schemes on which I provided information in previous answers show the member that we are absolutely determined to support older people in general. It is a shame that we cannot do more to help the WASPI women, but it is outwith devolved competence.

Energy-efficient Rural Housing (Discussions)

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has had with ministerial colleagues regarding how to improve access to energy-efficient housing in rural communities. (S6O-02698)

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

Ministers routinely discuss cross-portfolio matters. The Scottish Government’s ambition is for everyone to have access to a warm, safe, affordable and energy-efficient home that meets their needs. That is why we have committed to delivering 110,000 high-quality and energy-efficient affordable homes by 2032, 10 per cent of which will be in rural and island areas to help to retain and attract people to those communities. That is on top of the additional funding that we provide in rural areas for social landlords and home owners to improve the energy efficiency of existing homes.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The energy efficiency supply chain is critical to supporting the provision of homes and upgrades, but there is a bottleneck in the ability of small businesses to host apprenticeships, which feeds through to the workforce—for example, more meter engineers are needed locally to work through a backlog of repair work. Will the minister look at how funding and administrative support can be targeted at local businesses, perhaps through Skills Development Scotland, to support capacity for more apprenticeships in the sector?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

We are active in that area. In concert with industry voices, we have worked on the heat in buildings supply chain delivery plan and, in joint discussions with Graeme Dey, I am taking forward work on the skills and education side of things. It might be helpful if I were to give an update as part of my statement to the chamber when we launch the heat in buildings consultation.

Gordon MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Pentlands)

Some of my constituents who live in Ratho, Bonnington Cottages, Hermiston village and Blinkbonny need support for energy efficiency and decarbonisation improvements. Many people are unaware that Home Energy Scotland’s grant and loan scheme offers a rural uplift. What work is the Scottish Government doing to ensure that rural households are aware of all the home energy funding opportunities that are available to them?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

We run a regular nationwide marketing campaign to promote the support that is available. I encourage anyone who is interested in making energy efficiency or heating improvements to their home, whether they are in a rural or an urban area, to contact Home Energy Scotland for advice and support. It has a website that highlights the support that is on offer, and its network of regional advice centres allows us to maximise and tap into local promotional opportunities, including outreach and training sessions. We keep our approach to engagement and awareness raising under review, and we are keen to work with rural stakeholders to continue to increase awareness of the support that is on offer.

Disability and Additional Support Needs (Dumfriesshire) (Support)

Oliver Mundell (Conservative, Dumfriesshire)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what support it is providing to third sector organisations in Dumfriesshire to tackle inequalities and support disabled people and people with additional support needs, including supporting them into the workplace. (S6O-02699)

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

We recognise that the third sector plays a vital role in supporting work to tackle inequalities and support disabled people. I recognise the importance of clarity and stability to secure third sector resilience and grow its capacity.

To support the third sector with fairer funding, we will produce a plan to deliver improvements, including greater clarity in and consistency of existing arrangements. We regularly meet third sector and disabled people’s organisations and we support many in Dumfriesshire and across Scotland with a range of investments, including £5 million from the equality and human rights fund.

Oliver Mundell (Conservative, Dumfriesshire)

I highlight the work of the Usual Place, in Dumfries. I have been working with Emma Harper, Colin Smyth and Willie Rennie on a cross-party basis to secure additional Scottish Government support for that organisation’s vital work. It has hit a roadblock as it seems that it fits none of the existing funding options. Will the minister commit to looking at that again, to ensure the viability of the very important work that that organisation does to get young people into long-term employment? The Scottish Government should support that successful work.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I am aware of the work that Oliver Mundell and colleagues, including Emma Harper, have been doing to draw attention to the Usual Place’s situation. I know that my colleague Neil Gray, the Cabinet Secretary for Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy, provided signposting for where the organisation could go for further support, and that the First Minister confirmed that £50,000 of funding would be made available for 2023-24. However, the Scottish Government is subject to the same volatile financial situation that has caused those financial difficulties for the Usual Place, so there is no more money at this time.