Scottish Parliament, 28 September 2023

272 contributions from 68 members. The official report.

Avian Flu (Support for Poultry Farms)

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking ahead of the festive period to support poultry farms, in light of the potential threat of avian flu. (S6O-02576)

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

Since the commencement of the current avian influenza outbreak, the Scottish Government has continued to promote best-practice biosecurity measures for bird keepers that are designed to protect their poultry premises from highly pathogenic avian influenza. The Scottish Government has robust and tested contingency plans and, where outbreaks have occurred, the Government’s response has been immediate. All appropriate disease control measures and veterinary investigations have been applied, with the aim of preventing further spread of the virus. Owners who have been impacted have received guidance and support, including financial compensation.

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

T

here have been five outbreaks of avian flu in Aberdeenshire since July and, earlier this month, 1,500 birds were killed near Peterhead. It is no wonder that NFU Scotland has described the situation as very worrying and said that it remains a serious concern. Will the minister reassure poultry farmers that the Scottish Government will consider all safeguards against avian flu ahead of the festive period, including housing orders for commercial stocks?

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I thank Tess White for her interest in this extremely serious issue. The risk to wild birds and poultry is constantly monitored and assessed by scientific and technical experts and is reviewed on a weekly basis jointly by the chief veterinary officers of the United Kingdom.

The risk to wild birds remains high, while the risk to poultry is low, and biosecurity plays a crucial part in that assessment and is the single most important factor that is under bird keepers’ control. Tess White is absolutely right that biosecurity will be particularly important as uncertainty rises when we enter the winter period. It has been quite unusual to have avian flu in the summer months, and we are entering the period when migratory birds return, which increases the risk.

If the risk to poultry from wild birds increases to a certain level, Scottish ministers may consider the introduction of mandatory biosecurity measures through the declaration of an avian influenza prevention zone. On its website, the Scottish Government provides advice on how to maintain good biosecurity standards.

Innovation Centres (Funding)

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

2. To ask the Scottish Government when it will announce funding for its innovation centres. (S6O-02577)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Scotland’s innovation centre programme forms an important part of our knowledge exchange and innovation ecosystem by enhancing innovation and entrepreneurship across Scotland’s key economic sectors. For phase 2 of the programme, the Scottish Government has invested £80 million via the Scottish Funding Council and enterprise agencies, which will support the innovation centres until 2024.

My officials advise me that the SFC has carried out an assessment process to determine future funding. That will ensure the innovation centre programme’s sustainability in the long term and maximise the value that public investment delivers to the research and innovation landscape.

I am advised that the SFC updated centres on the outcome of the assessment process on Friday 22 September. Now that the assessment is complete, the SFC and other funders will work with the centres on the next steps.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

As the cabinet secretary indicated and the Government’s innovation strategy recognises, Scotland’s innovation centres are a critical part of our economic landscape. They support economic development in key sectors where Scotland has a genuine competitive advantage, including precision medicine, aquaculture, industrial biotechnology and sensor technology.

I am slightly concerned that an education minister rather than an economy minister is answering my question. Does that indicate that the Government regards innovation centres as an academic rather than an industrial asset? What reassurance can the cab sec give that a coherent economic strategy and the imperative to press home our global advantage in key sectors will inform decisions that are made on the future of innovation centres?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As Ivan McKee knows, and as he alluded to, Scotland’s innovation strategy outlines the critical role that the further and higher education sectors play in promoting innovation. In addition, I recognise that the funding is provided by the Scottish Funding Council, which is why this response comes from me, as education secretary.

More broadly, our innovation centres build transformational collaboration between business, universities, colleges and others to capitalise on Scotland’s world-leading research. To my mind, that is not a binary education or economy matter, because the two are inherently linked.

The SFC assessment process looked at alignment with the national strategies and priorities, including the innovation strategy and the national strategy for economic transformation. That is designed to ensure that innovation centres continue to operate not as either industry or academic assets, as the member alluded to, but rather as truly national assets to maximise impact for Scotland. Notwithstanding that, I am due to meet the SFC shortly and I will ensure that the coherence that Mr McKee spoke to is at the heart of the decision-making process.

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Last week, at the Economy and Fair Work Committee, Professor Sir Mike Ferguson from Dundee highlighted the issue of innovation in the life sciences sector, but also expressed his concern that start-ups in that sector are having real difficulties in accessing capital. He said that he could see a role for the Scottish National Investment Bank in providing that capital. Does the cabinet secretary agree with that?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I suspect that an economy minister might be better suited to give a response to Murdo Fraser’s question, and I will ask the suitable minister to write to him.

Scottish Education Exchange Programme (Update)

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the roll-out of the Scottish education exchange programme initial test and learn project this year. (S6O-02578)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Over the summer, officials have been working with partners across the education sector to develop the test and learn project of the Scottish education exchange programme. The programme is intended to replace some aspects of the Erasmus+ programme, as the hard Brexit, which is supported by Westminster parties, continues to rob young people in Scotland of opportunities.

The test and learn project will open for applications in October. The Minister for Further and Higher Education wrote to the Education, Children and Young People Committee yesterday with more detailed information on the programme.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

Can the cabinet secretary assure Bishopbriggs academy in my constituency of support to continue its German educational trainee programme, given the impact of Brexit, the withdrawal of Erasmus+ and visa challenges for the academic year 2023-24? Is she open to meeting the school’s staff for further discussion on that?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The German educational trainee programme has been a valuable resource to a number of schools. Languages assistants are a tremendous asset for our schools; they enrich language and cultural learning, and encourage young people to widen their cultural horizons. However, as I alluded to, the United Kingdom Government’s disastrous hard Brexit means that we now have fewer languages assistants in our schools, and it is harder for our school pupils to go on school exchanges because, for example, of the ending of free movement.

The impact of Brexit continues to curtail opportunities for young people in Scotland and across the UK. For example, Scotland benefited hugely from Erasmus+, and proportionately more students from Scotland than from any other country in the UK took part in it. I hope that a long-term solution can be found to allow schools to continue their work with GET in the future. I am more than happy to visit Bishopbriggs academy in Ms Mackay’s constituency to further understand the importance of the GET programme and to make direct representations to the UK Secretary of State for Education on that matter.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Before the Scottish National Party gets too carried away, that is funding of £1 million compared with the Welsh programme, which has £65 million. Surely that is just a fig leaf to hide the embarrassment of the SNP’s failure to deliver on a replacement for Erasmus+.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Of course, we will engage with our Welsh colleagues, as the committee has done directly on that matter, but I find it somewhat perplexing that Mr Rennie—whose party, as I understand it, now supports a hard Brexit—is advocating for additional funding for a policy that his party does not agree with. I am not necessarily convinced of the intent behind the question.

It is worth my while to point out that the investment is coming from the Scottish Government at a time when our young people have been deprived of opportunities because of Brexit. I hope that Mr Rennie’s party will reconsider its position on Brexit and that we can work together to encourage the UK Government to think again in relation to Erasmus+.

Relationships, Sexual Health and Parenthood Education

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government how it ensured that the views and experiences of young people, in particular LGBTQ young people, were reflected in the new draft “Guidance on the Delivery of Relationships, Sexual Health and Parenthood (RSHP) Education in Scottish Schools”. (S6O-02579)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The views and experiences expressed by children and young people through the Young Scot and Scottish Youth Parliament reports on personal and social education have informed the work to develop the revised draft statutory RSHP teaching guidance. The draft guidance was influenced by the work of the LGBTI inclusive education working group and a wide range of other stakeholders.

The Scottish Government is currently consulting publicly on the revised draft guidance. That includes specific engagement to gather views of young people on whether the revised teaching guidance meets their learning needs. Officials will take account of that activity in developing the final version of the teaching guidance, which is due to be published in the new year.

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

I was on the then Education and Skills Committee when we received evidence from queer young people in particular, who told us that they had resorted to watching pornography to learn about sex because the education that they received in school was so poor and not remotely LGBTQ inclusive.

The new draft relationship, sexual health and parenthood guidance is a vast improvement on its 2014 predecessor in relation to LGBTQ inclusion and key themes such as consent. That is to the credit of young people in groups such as the Scottish Youth Parliament and the Time for Inclusive Education campaign. LGBTQ young people were key to producing the draft, and having their confidence will be key to its successful delivery. How is the Government maximising opportunities for them to provide final feedback during the consultation phase before it is put into use?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am grateful to Ross Greer for his support in the development of the revised guidance. As I mentioned, we are running an engagement project to gather young people’s views. The Scottish Youth Parliament and Young Scot will facilitate face-to-face sessions with representative groups of young people and run a survey to seek their views on the revised guidance. That will run in tandem with the public consultation and will be reflected in the final version of the teaching guidance, which will be published in the new year.

LGBT young people are also encouraged to contribute where they can or to engage with representative organisations such as LGBT Youth Scotland, Stonewall Scotland or LGBT Health and Wellbeing to help them to contribute to the consultation.

I was pleased to see some of the benefits of the TIE campaign’s hard work when I visited Castleton primary school recently. I was delighted to make a presentation to Castleton to mark its achievement of becoming the first school in Scotland to successfully and fully implement LGBT-inclusive education. I enjoyed seeing the young people’s pride in showing me how their school is an inclusive and supportive environment for all their pupils.

Agricultural Equipment Theft

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether equivalent measures in Scotland are needed to those introduced in England and Wales by the Equipment Theft (Prevention) Act 2023, in light of reports of a recent spate of thefts in the Scottish Borders. (S6O-02580)

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

The theft of agricultural plant and machinery is a significant concern to our rural communities and it can have serious consequences for the agricultural sector in terms of cost and confidence. We continue to work with the Scottish Partnership Against Rural Crime and others in our efforts to tackle organised crime and the serious harm it causes to our communities.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

Although Scotland has seen a decrease in the cost of rural crime, we cannot stand still. World events have triggered new illicit markets, creating more demand for stolen machinery. Thefts of quad bikes, trailers, farm machinery and GPS trackers are hitting our rural communities hard.

Westminster’s Equipment Theft (Prevention) Act 2023 was welcomed with open arms by victims of such crime. Will the cabinet secretary support my plans to introduce a similar bill here in Scotland?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Rachael Hamilton is quite correct to say that, despite the decrease in the cost of such crime to Scotland, we cannot and must not stand still. I am sighted on the fact that this type of theft has obvious links to serious and organised crime. I look forward to the member publishing her rural theft bill.

I reassure Rachael Hamilton that we are looking closely at the private member’s bill that was recently passed at Westminster. The 2023 act now has royal assent and will come into force south of the border in six months. The relevant secretary of state will be able to introduce regulations, which we will look at closely to see how they will inform our thinking for Scotland.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

What is t

he cabinet secretary’s response to the latest set of statistics, which show that recorded crime is at one of its lowest levels in 50 years?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

The continued low levels of crime are due to the efforts of the police and justice and community safety partners to deliver safer communities and, of course, to our investment in the justice system.

With recorded crime remaining at one of the lowest levels seen since 1974, the latest figures show reductions in crimes including violence, damage and reckless behaviour. Nonetheless, we continue to focus on crime prevention, reducing reoffending and supporting victims of crime.

Violence in Schools (Summit)

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

6. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the recent summit on tackling violence in schools. (S6O-02581)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As I confirmed in the chamber last week, there are multiple strands to the behaviour in schools summit. In June, I convened the first meeting of the headteacher task force, which focused on issues surrounding school exclusion. On 5 September, I chaired a summit that focused on recording and monitoring of incidents in schools—an area of concern that was raised during a recent parliamentary debate. The next two events are scheduled for October and November.

That approach enables engagement with a wide range of stakeholders so that we hear and learn from the broadest possible range of interests and experiences. It also allows for the key issues to be explored in depth and for the work to be informed by evidence from the behaviour in Scottish schools research, which will be published in November.

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

I appreciate the cabinet secretary’s having taken the time yesterday to chat with me about this constituent issue. She will be aware that an assault on a teacher took place in Coltness high school this month. Although the school is outwith my constituency of Coatbridge and Chryston, the victim is a constituent of mine and has asked me to raise her case in our Parliament. I am told that it was a very serious assault, and my constituent is still off work. I know that the vast majority of pupils in Scotland are not likely to commit such acts.

What assurances can the Scottish Government give that the recent summit looked carefully at violence against teachers as well as pupil-on-pupil violence? What further policy implementations can be introduced to prevent others experiencing what my constituent did?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am very sorry to hear about the incident that Mr MacGregor has outlined. Although I cannot comment on the specifics of the case in question, no teacher should suffer verbal or physical abuse in their place of work. The work of the behaviour and relationships summit is concerned with ensuring that our schools are safe and consistent environments for all—staff as well as pupils.

The next two events, which will take place in October and November, will have a particular focus on that issue. The November summit will benefit from research from the behaviour in Scottish schools research programme. The BISA research will give us an accurate national picture on behaviour in Scotland’s schools. It is important that we have that granular detail; press reports are no substitute for it. We also need to be mindful of the on-going impacts of the pandemic on behaviour and relationships in our schools.

The BISA research and the wealth of feedback that we are gathering as part of the summit process will give us the evidence base to ensure that the right support is in place in our schools to respond to the concerns that have been raised.

Screen Machine (Funding)

The Deputy Presiding Officer

7. To ask the Scottish Government whether it has plans to engage with Regional Screen Scotland regarding its call for funding for a new Screen Machine vehicle, in light of concerns that a lack of funding could lead to the end of the service. (S6O-02582)

Angus Robertson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Central)

Yes, I do have such plans. I will meet Regional Screen Scotland on 5 October to hear directly about the challenges facing the future of Screen Machine. I recognise the valuable role that Screen Machine plays in bringing cinema to rural communities for which access to culture is limited, and I note the £176,000 funding that Screen Scotland provided to Screen Machine earlier this year, which is allowing Screen Machine to lease a temporary replacement cinema until April 2024.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Yesterday, the First Minister told the Conveners Group about the importance of opening up cultural opportunities to people and communities around Scotland. Over the past 25 years, Screen Machine has done just that in the Highlands and Islands.

I declare an interest, having sat in the Screen Machine vehicle outside Sanday school—on one of the north isles of Orkney—watching George Clooney battle “The Perfect Storm” while an actual storm raged outside. It was one of those cinematic experiences that one does not forget.

I welcome the engagement that the cabinet secretary has had, but I encourage him to further support the future of that valuable cultural asset to the Highlands and Islands.

Angus Robertson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Central)

I thank Liam McArthur for sharing the positive impact of mobile cinema in the communities that he represents in Orkney. I encourage any other colleagues from across the chamber who have had similar experiences—I am sure that there are many of them—to be so kind as to forward information to me on that before the meeting that I hold at the beginning of next month. Those experiences will be very material to the discussions that we are having about the future of the Screen Machine service, which is much valued.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

Screen Machine is a much-cherished service, as we have heard, for people who would otherwise have to travel hundreds of miles to get to a static cinema. Does the cabinet secretary share my view that that popular and well-used cultural service must be able to access the relevant support to commission a new greener vehicle that will allow it to visit our rural and island communities?

Angus Robertson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Central)

I am absolutely clear on the value that Screen

Machine brings to the communities that it visits, including the Western Isles, the esteem that its audiences hold it in and its contribution to cutting carbon emissions through reducing audience travel. All those matters will be subjects at the meeting that I will hold early next month.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes general question time.

Before we move to First Minister’s questions, I invite members to join me in welcoming to the gallery His Excellency Mr Vikram Doraiswami, who is the High Commissioner of India to the United Kingdom. [

Applause

.]

Ovarian Cancer Services (Waiting Times)

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. This week, Margaret McColl, who is from Lanarkshire, described her ordeal when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She faced a three-month wait for national health service treatment in Scotland. However, Margaret did not know if she had that long, so she used £27,000 of her life savings for faster private treatment in England. She said:

“Cancer kills if left untreated and the Scottish Government is allowing this to happen. We shouldn’t have to go to London or elsewhere.”

First Minister, Margaret is right, isn’t she?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Margaret is right that nobody should have to feel that their only option is to pay privately and to go anywhere outside Scotland for cancer treatment. I pass on my sympathy to Margaret for the unacceptable ordeal that she has had to go through.

I will try to give some context. I know that Douglas Ross and others in and outside the chamber are aware of the significant impact that the Covid pandemic had on our health services across the United Kingdom, including on cancer services. One of the most difficult decisions that the Government had to take during that Covid period was to have to pause cancer screening for a number of months; we are still dealing with the impacts of that difficult decision.

On ovarian cancer more specifically, let me try to offer some assurance, if I can. The latest figures show that, in Scotland, 94.7 per cent of women—more than nine out of 10—are receiving their first treatment for ovarian cancer within 31 days of a decision to treat. However, in those situations where that is not happening or, in Margaret’s case, has not happened, I fully accept Douglas Ross’s proposition that that state of affairs is not acceptable.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The First Minister has mentioned Covid, as I thought he would. However, they had Covid in England as well, where Margaret got treatment because she could pay £27,000 for it—she went south of the border to get it

.

The First Minister wanted to offer his reassurance to ovarian cancer sufferers. Target Ovarian Cancer has said that

“Scotland has one of the worst survival rates in Europe”.

People need urgent treatment to save their lives but, in the Scottish National Party-run NHS, they wait months. Margaret is worried about what happens if her cancer comes back, and she is also worried for people who do not have life savings to pay for treatment. Public Health Scotland statistics show that people from the most deprived areas of Scotland are 74 per cent more likely to die from cancer than people in wealthier areas. What are people meant to do if they get cancer but cannot afford to go outwith Scotland for treatment?

The First Minister

The NHS in Scotland will be there to assist and treat where it possibly can. Unless I misunderstood Douglas Ross—I am willing to correct the record if I did—Margaret went for private treatment in England, but NHS services in England have been impacted, too, as have the services in NHS Wales and undoubtedly in NHS Scotland.

Douglas Ross is absolutely within his rights to ask the question around ovarian cancer, and I am more than happy, given the time limits that we have in First Minister’s question time, to write to him with far more detail. We are taking the specific issue of ovarian cancer with the utmost seriousness.

The Scottish cancer network will establish a new ovarian cancer clinical network, which will ensure equity of access to treatment for all women with ovarian cancer. That is specific to the point that Douglas Ross raised about the inequality that might exist in relation to accessibility of services.

We have also committed £10.5 million to help health boards to improve their capacity and access to systemic anti-cancer therapy by 2027; £3 million of that additional funding has been released this year. As I said, I could give a lot more detail about what we are doing specifically on ovarian cancer but, in the interests of brevity, I will write to Douglas Ross with that further detail.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I will welcome that response when it comes, and I will share it with another member of the public to whom we have spoken. Irene Hartshorn from Ayr was told that she needed to wait 12 weeks for ovarian cancer surgery. She told us this morning:

“I felt powerless ... you know that all the time the illness is getting worse and worse. If I had waited, I think I would be dead by now.”

Her sister paid for her to get treatment in London, but

Irene wanted us to ask the First Minister

why the resources are not in place in Scotland for the treatment that she had to go south of the border for.

The First Minister

We are investing in our national health service, which is why, this year, we gave an additional £1 billion to the health service, taking investment to £19 billion. We are investing not just in the health service but, importantly, in the people who provide the treatment. That is why we did everything that we possibly could do to ensure that they are paid fairly and that the NHS did not lose any days to industrial action.

Since the SNP took power, there has been an almost 100 per cent increase in the number of consultant oncologists. We are investing in the individuals in our health services, we are investing in ensuring early detection of cancer with our rapid cancer diagnostic services and, specifically on ovarian cancer, which is the issue that Douglas Ross has raised, we are seeking to explore what more we can do for faster treatment.

I go back to the latest statistics that were published and, although I fully accept that they will be cold comfort for those who have already had to pay for treatment, I hope that they provide some level of reassurance. They show that 94.7 per cent are receiving their first treatment for ovarian cancer within 31 days of a decision to treat. We want to consider what more we can do to improve that figure further.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Those answers will be bitterly disappointing for Margaret and Irene and the hundreds of others who are so distressed at having to pay so much money to go outwith Scotland to get their treatment.

The experts are echoing what the patients are telling us. Dr Hume of Cancer Research UK says that the problems in cancer care are fixable if the new cancer strategy is “fully funded and implemented” now, but the evidence shows that the resources are not in place. Official statistics that came out this week show that one in 4 Scottish patients who are suspected of having cancer does not start their treatment within the 62-day target. A new freedom of information request that we have had answered shows that, this year, one patient in NHS Grampian has waited 156 days, which is more than five months, to start chemotherapy.

Humza Yousaf was health secretary for two years and cancer waiting times grew. He is now the First Minister, so what is he going to do to sort it out?

The First Minister

As I have referenced, the 31-day cancer stat has improved on that of the previous quarter. I hope that that shows that we are on a journey of recovery. We have to accept that recovery will take a number of years.

Douglas Ross made a few points that I agree with when he was speaking on behalf of those who work in the NHS who say that the 10-year cancer strategy that we have published must be fully funded. We agree. We accept that very point. That is why, for example, this year we have increased our investment in the health service substantially and, later this year, we will give Parliament an update on our 2024-25 budget. I fully accept the premise that the strategies that we set up must be funded.

I also accept that we must improve the figures for the 62-day target. There is no doubt that they were affected by the pandemic but, to be frank, there were challenges with the 62-day target before the pandemic, which is why the cancer strategy will seek to target those cancer types for which we struggle to reach the 62-day target.

From a Scottish Government perspective, we will continue our record investment in the NHS, we will make sure that our staff are paid fairly and we will make sure that we continue to have adequate staffing in our health service. I give an absolute assurance, not just to Douglas Ross but to everyone who is watching or listening, that the treatment of cancer—early diagnosis and early treatment—is an absolute number 1 priority for the Government that I lead.

Cancer Treatment (Delays)

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. Cancer remains Scotland’s biggest killer, and we know that there is a direct link between speed of diagnosis, treatment and survival rates.

This week, statistics revealed that one in four cancer patients had faced delays in treatment—that is 1,130 people starting treatment late in the past three months alone. Every one of those people is a son or daughter; every one of them is a loved one—someone who is loved by a family waiting anxiously. In fact, none of Scotland’s health boards met the 62-day standard for starting cancer treatment.

Macmillan Cancer Support has warned that

“staff are being stretched to breaking point”,

and Cancer Research UK called the delays “unacceptable”, so does the First Minister agree with the experts, or has his Government become complacent in the fight against Scotland’s biggest killer?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We absolutely have not become complacent. I hope that we can demonstrate that through the work that we have done with key stakeholders in relation to the cancer strategy.

Douglas Ross and Anas Sarwar are absolutely right to raise what is a crucial issue for people right across Scotland. Let me, in turn, try to give some assurances that we are recovering from a global pandemic. That global pandemic has absolutely had an impact, not just on our health service but on our cancer services.

However, when I look at the statistics on the 62-day pathway, I see that we are treating 41.2 per cent more patients on that pathway than we did 10 years ago, and when I look at the 31-day pathway, on which there has been an improvement, I see that we are treating 19.6 per cent more patients than we did 10 years ago. We are seeing more patients—the throughput has increased over the past decade. We are not complacent—it is clear that there is more to do, particularly around the 62-day pathway.

Anas Sarwar also raised the importance of diagnostic waiting times. Again, the latest statistics show an improvement in that regard. We are not complacent, and we will continue to invest. As I have said, we will continue to invest in ensuring that we have an adequate number of staff so that we can get people into treatment as early as possible.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Covid started three years ago. This Government has not met the 62-day standard for 11 years—

so cut the complacency and cut the excuses. We know that every delay risks lives, and we know that the number of cancer deaths is higher than it should be. So far this year, there have been 398 more cancer deaths than experts would have expected. Those deaths were avoidable and unnecessary.

This week, it was also revealed that life expectancy in Scotland has dropped again; it has fallen back to a level that has not been seen for more than 10 years. There is no starker indication of failure than that. Therefore, will the First Minister take the opportunity to apologise for the lost decade on the Scottish National Party’s watch?

The First Minister

When people do not get treatment as quickly as they should or when targets are missed, of course the Government apologises—we have deep regret when that is the case.

Anas Sarwar forgets to mention what has happened over the past decade—we have had more than a decade of Westminster austerity. [

Interruption.

] Every external organisation that has an interest in poverty will tell you—

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Members!

The First Minister

—that poverty is a clear determinant of, and a clear factor in, health inequality.

We will do our best to try to mitigate the impact of that Westminster austerity. We have put hundreds of millions of pounds from our budgets on the table to protect people from that Westminster austerity.

With regard to what we are doing in relation to the national health service, I go back to the central point that we are putting in record investment. We are ensuring that we pay our staff fairly, which is why there have not been strikes in Scotland, when there have been strikes in health services across the United Kingdom, including in Wales and in England. We will continue to invest in our staff to ensure that patients get the treatment that they deserve as quickly as possible.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The First Minister does not need to persuade me about how woeful the UK Tory Government is. However, that does not excuse the woeful record of this SNP Government over the past 16 years. Every cancer delay raises the chance of avoidable death, which is why patients should be diagnosed and start treatment within 62 days.

A freedom of information request has revealed the dire reality for too many patients. Some cancer patients have waited 191 days for diagnosis and treatment; a cervical cancer patient waited 217 days; a prostate cancer patient waited 334 days; and there was even a cancer patient who waited 385 days for diagnosis and to start treatment. The First Minister cannot blame someone else for that; that is the SNP’s record. That cancer patient had more than a year of anxiety before getting the help that they needed.

Why can the First Minister not see what many members on the SNP benches can see: that the SNP has lost its way and got complacent and no longer puts the interests of the Scottish people first?

The First Minister

That is simply untrue, which is why, when it comes to who is trusted with the NHS, we tend to leave the verdict to the people of Scotland. Time and again, the people of Scotland have given the verdict to the SNP. [

Interruption

.] I can hear Anas Sarwar shouting something about polls. In most relevant polls, if not every single one of them, the SNP continues to lead Labour and other political parties. The reason for that, after 16 years in government, is our stewardship—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

—of vital public services such as the national health service.

I remind Anas Sarwar of a couple of points. I do not disagree with the central premise, which neither he nor Douglas Ross have raised, that there has to be improvement on the 62-day standard. I agree with and accept that. There has obviously and undoubtedly been an impact from Covid on it but, as things stand, we have seen an improvement on the 62-day standard compared with the previous quarter. More than seven out of 10 patients are starting treatment within 62 days, but that has to be improved. There is no complacency. In relation to the 62-day standard, the median wait was 49 days.

We will continue on the journey of recovery, we will continue to invest in our health service and staffing, and we will continue to do what we can to ensure that patients and the public are seen and treated as quickly as possible.

Outdoor Swimming Sites (Contamination)

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

3. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking in response to reports of widespread contamination at many of Scotland’s outdoor swimming sites. (S6F-02404)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I take some exception to the use of the term “widespread”. The Scottish Government is committed to improving water quality in bathing waters across Scotland. Recent reporting of the statistics has not interpreted the Scottish Environment Protection Agency’s bathing water monitoring data correctly. Since we introduced more stringent European standards in 2015, we have worked with SEPA, Scottish Water and key stakeholders to ensure that more bathing waters than ever before are classified as good or excellent, with 98 per cent now meeting water quality standards. Scottish Water is working to install monitors on all its sewer outfalls in or near bathing waters to provide near-real-time spill data by December 2024. Those actions will help to inform bathers and support SEPA and Scottish Water’s work to prioritise investment where it will most benefit our environment and communities.

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I am a bit surprised by that answer. The most recent investigations at Lower Largo in Fife tell us that it is the most polluted beach in Scotland. It has breached the regulations on seven occasions so far in 2023 and, on three occasions, it was at 50 times the contamination limit, which is a very serious health hazard. What will the Scottish Government do to increase the frequency of checks on those beaches?

In addition, is the First Minister as concerned as I am about the number of community swimming pool closures, given that such pools are seen by many families as a safer alternative just now?

The First Minister

The situation in Lower Largo is serious, but my understanding is that there are identified reasons for that potential contamination. I know that it is an issue that Scottish Water and SEPA are looking at seriously. I am happy to write to Liz Smith, or ensure that the appropriate cabinet secretary writes to her, with the detail of what actions are being taken on that specific example.

However, I return to the reason why I took exception to Liz Smith suggesting that contamination is widespread, which is that 98 per cent of Scotland’s bathing waters currently achieve the bathing water quality standard, with more being rated excellent than ever before. We have good monitoring and good-quality water in Scotland.

As I said, on the specifics of Lower Largo, I am more than happy to write to Liz Smith with the detail.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I am astonished by the First Minister’s answer, which is astonishingly complacent when 50 out of 89 of the most popular beaches in Scotland fail to meet the standard for safe bathing. That should ring an alarm bell for the First Minister. When will he implement the proper measurement of all sewage outflows and when, at last, will he set legally binding targets to end sewage dumping?

The First Minister

That is an issue that Scottish Water and SEPA take seriously. In previous First Minister’s question times, I have given answers about how, for example, water and sewage outflows are being monitored in a comprehensive programme that has cost considerable amounts of public investment and has been under way for a number of years. There is action to increase that monitoring in the time to come and I am happy to give Willie Rennie more detail about that.

No one is complacent. I fully accept that there are particular instances that must be investigated and where action must be taken, but I return to the point that 98 per cent of bathing waters currently achieve the quality standard, with more being rated as excellent than ever before. Regarding the specifics that Willie Rennie raises, I am more than happy to provide him with detailed answers about what further monitoring is expected to take place.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

I have previously raised the issue of sewage contamination in Scotland’s water, notably in the Water of Leith in my region, and have asked the Scottish Government for a meeting. In August, the cabinet secretary advised me that she did not think that a meeting would be useful. Given the clear severity of the issue across Scotland, will the cabinet secretary now agree to meet urgently with me?

The First Minister

I am more than happy to consider that meeting and to ensure that the cabinet secretary considers it.

On outflow monitoring, Scottish Water carried out a comprehensive and Scotland-wide environmental study programme to assess the impacts of its assets on water quality during the period 2015 to 2021. Scottish Water invested £40 million during that period and the computer model that it developed allows it to understand when combined sewer outflows will spill and under what rain conditions, and the impact that those spills will have on the environment. SEPA regularly monitors the water environment to ensure that it is not impacted by sewage spills. In 2019, it took 19,000 monitoring samples across Scotland to safeguard the quality of our rivers, lochs and coastal areas.

There is significant monitoring of those overflows, but, given Foysol Choudhury’s question, I am more than happy for the Government to consider a meeting if he would find that useful.

Juryless Rape Trials

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to some members of the judiciary expressing opposition to juryless rape trials. (S6F-02405)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill includes proposals for a time-limited pilot of judge-only rape trials. The response by the senators of the College of Justice clearly shows that they have split views on the proposal. We know that organisations including Rape Crisis Scotland, Victim Support Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid support the pilot. They, like many, are concerned by the experiences of complainers, the influence of rape myths and the lower conviction rates for rape.

The senators’ response states that there is

“a serious problem with what happens in a jury trials for rape”

cases.

The pilot stems from the recommendations made by Lady Dorrian, whom Christine Grahame will be aware is Scotland’s second most senior judge, as part of her review and report into how we can improve the justice system, particularly for victims and survivors of rape, while also—this is crucial—protecting the rights of the accused.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I, too, have read the submission from the senators, both those in favour and those against. I am not quoting, but I will paraphrase it. The evidential difficulty that most alleged victims and the accused were in a relationship, sometimes even after the alleged crime, may be an influence on the low conviction rate, no matter what we do. The right to a fair trial under the European convention on human rights, as far as that may affect the accused, is embedded in the Scotland Act 1998.

Crucially, the Government is, I understand, to assess the efficacy of the pilot. For me, that trespasses on the principle of the separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary, which is an extremely serious issue. Will the First Minister confirm that there will be robust scrutiny of the proposal and that his Government has an open mind and is reflecting on those concerns, which are indeed my concerns?

The First Minister

Yes. Of course we will be open minded in our consideration of the legislation. That is why the committee stage of the bill—the evidence-gathering stage—is such a crucial part of the legislative process. It allows us to hear quite robustly, and often quite powerfully, the various arguments being put forward.

I go back to my point that the recommendation for a time-limited pilot of juryless trials is coming from a review conducted by the second most senior judge, Lady Dorrian—a very experienced judge and, I think, a judge who commands wide respect right across the political spectrum. It is therefore important that we give that weight, as we also give weight to those voices that have expressed concern—not just in the judiciary but, as we know, many members of the legal profession, too. We will of course give that weight. We will also give the voice of victims and survivors weight in this decision and the passage of the bill.

We need to improve the experience of rape complainers. I think that we all absolutely accept that. I think that we would all also accept that rape myths do exist within juries. I end with a quote from Rape Crisis Scotland that has stayed with me since my days as justice secretary, and to this very day. It said:

“Many survivors ... describe the process of going to court as more traumatic than the rape itself”.

That is an unacceptable position in any justice system, let alone in ours.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

The case for juryless trials in rape cases often cites the work undertaken by Professor Fiona Leverick and her 2020 report on juries and rape myths. However, that report concludes by stating:

“Before suggesting anything as drastic as removing juries from criminal trials, however, it is worth considering whether the answer might lie in addressing problematic attitudes via juror education”.

The report argues that that is

“the way forward before more radical measures are considered”.

Does the First Minister agree?

The First Minister

I do not think that it is a case of either/or. It is absolutely acceptable to explore both. It is incumbent on us in government to provide education and try to tackle rape myths in society more generally, but also to consider the pilot.

Ivan McKee is right to reference what is an excellent piece of work—the most comprehensive jury research undertaken, I think, in the entire UK—by Professor Fiona Leverick, James Chalmers and others.

I will be happy to correct the record if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Professor Leverick supports the proposal for a pilot. I welcome the steps that the judiciary has taken to improve jury education. I highlight the comments from the senators on the testing of rape myth directions with juries this year. I will quote. When it came to judge directions, they

“did not prevent acquittals which appeared to the trial judge to be conspicuously generous on the evidence adduced.”

There is definitely a role for education around rape myths—

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, First Minister.

The First Minister

—but there is also the option, which I think we should be exploring, of juryless trials.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Lawyers across Scotland say that they will boycott the SNP’s planned juryless trials, with senior judges also raising concerns that removing jurors constitutes political meddling in the independence of the judiciary by this SNP Government. As I asked his justice secretary yesterday, will Humza Yousaf ignore those concerns, pass his bill and simply hope for the best?

The First Minister

Of course we will listen to the views of the legal profession, listen to the weight of opinion of the judiciary and give appropriate weight to the voices of victims and survivors, too. However, I go back to the central point—I would make this point quite robustly to Russell Findlay—that the proposal for a pilot of juryless trials is coming from Lady Dorrian. It is not Government interference to simply explore a recommendation from the second most senior judge—the Lord Justice Clerk—of Scotland. It does no justice to an issue that requires great sensitivity to throw around terms such as “political interference”, regardless of who that comes from. Let us absolutely give consideration to the voices of the judiciary, but let us not forget the voices of victims and survivors on this issue.

Antidepressants (Assessment of Use)

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the First Minister what assessment the Scottish Government has made of the use of antidepressants in Scotland. (S6F-02411)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I understand the impact and suffering that depression can cause sufferers and their families. I am committed to improving care, support and access to treatment. It is important that we recognise that many people in Scotland benefit from the use of antidepressant therapy.

We established a short-life working group on prescription medicine dependence and withdrawal, which reviewed the use of antidepressants across Scotland and involved clinical stakeholders and people with lived experience. In response to that group’s recommendations, we will shortly publish a prescribing guide on antidepressants, which will provide practical and evidence-driven guidelines on safe and effective prescribing through the promotion of person-centred medicine reviews.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

The number of adults and young people who are prescribed antidepressants has significantly increased over the past 10 years, to more than 1 million. Prescriptions are for a wide range of disorders and illnesses. At the same time, national health service spending on mental health, as a percentage, declined between 2011 and 2022. Does the First Minister accept that there is a clear link between the failure to access mental health services and the subsequent increase in prescriptions? Patients are asking for more than pills. What will ministers do to provide that critical access to mental health services?

The First Minister

I cannot be the only one who listened to that question who is disturbed by the insinuation that antidepressants are not a legitimate treatment for those who require them. They, too, can be part of a treatment. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members.

The First Minister

People do not only have access to medicine or only have access to, for example, psychological therapies. [

Interruption.

]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

For many people, there will be a mixture of both.

I am proud of the Government’s record of investment in mental health services over the past number of years. There have been significant increases not just in mental health services but, crucially, in mental health staffing. I am more than happy to ensure that the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport writes to Sue Webber with the detail of that.

I end by saying that, ultimately, these are clinical decisions, and we should leave to clinicians, not politicians, decisions on who is prescribed antidepressants and who is not.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

Research from the Royal College of Psychiatrists that was released today has shown that 58 per cent of people in Scotland think that mental health services receive too little of the healthcare budget. By the Scottish Government’s own measure, that 58 per cent are correct, aren’t they? The Government’s commitment that 10 per cent of the overall healthcare budget be spent on mental health is not being met. Currently, just 8.7 per cent is allocated. In cash terms, that means that we are £180 million a year short. Will the First Minister confirm whether that 10 per cent target for mental health spending is still a priority for his Government and, if so, how he personally will ensure that it is met?

The First Minister

It is still our aim, our ambition and our target. Since 2007, mental health spending has doubled in cash terms from £651 million to £1.3 billion. If Paul Sweeney does not want to take my word for it, paragraph 70 of the latest Audit Scotland report on mental health says:

“Between 2017/18 and 2023/24, the Scottish Government’s Mental Health Directorate budget increased significantly”.

That is a direct quote. Again, I am more than happy for the minister to furnish Paul Sweeney with further details of the significant investment in the recruitment of child and adolescent mental health services staff in particular, and of the fact that record numbers of young people are being seen through those services. I want those improvements to continue.

Safer Drug Consumption Facility (Support for Pilot)

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

6. To ask the First Minister whether he will provide an update on the work that the Scottish Government is undertaking to support the establishment of a pilot safer drug consumption facility. (S6F-02415)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I welcome the decision that was taken yesterday by Glasgow city integration joint board. Following the position that was taken by the Lord Advocate, the safer drug consumption facility proposal now allows Glasgow to move ahead with the pilot. We have been consistent in our commitment to supporting the setting up of a safer drug consumption facility, which included facilitating work between Glasgow health and social care partnership and Police Scotland to develop the proposal that was then submitted to the Lord Advocate.

We provided Glasgow with an absolute assurance around funding in advance of yesterday’s meeting of Glasgow’s integrated joint board to discuss the establishment of such a facility. We will also continue to play an active role in the planning and implementation work to ensure that the facility is delivered in a timely manner and, of course, that it is also fully evaluated.

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

Alongside other Glasgow MSPs, I wrote to the Home Secretary regarding the issue last month. The response suggests that the Home Office will not stand in the way of the Lord Advocate’s authority on the matter, provided that it is exercised lawfully. Although that is welcome, it is disappointing that the United Kingdom Government seems unwilling to work with the Scottish Government to actively progress this public health measure. Does the First Minister agree that it appears that the UK’s inaction on the matter is political rather than pragmatic, and that true co-operation from the Home Office would help to provide even better care and support?

The First Minister

I agree with Kaukab Stewart. She is right that the easiest, simplest and quickest way to have had such a facility up and running would have been if the Home Office had given approval. [

Interruption

.]

I am not sure why Labour seems to be acting as a human shield for the Conservatives—

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

—but I say to Labour and Conservative members in that regard that, even with the Lord Advocate’s statement of prosecution policy, there are limitations on the pilot. The

safer drug consumption facility can be focused only on this narrow pilot in Glasgow. I know that there have been calls for other pilots to be established, but the statement of prosecution policy is for simple possession offences within this particular pilot.

I welcome the fact that the Home Office and UK Government have said that they will not stand in the way, but I would urge them to take a public health approach to tackling drug deaths, as we have done here in Scotland, and to give approval so that we can, I hope, use safer drug consumption facilities as one tool in a whole range of tools to fight what are still unacceptably high levels of drug deaths in Scotland.

The Presiding Officer

We move to constituency and general supplementaries.

Infrastructure Investment

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

In evidence to the Finance and Public Administration Committee, leading economists emphasised how crucial it is for the Scottish Government to invest in Scotland’s infrastructure if our economy is to grow and our living standards are to improve. What is the First Minister’s response to the statement in the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, published today, that the United Kingdom Tory Government is expected to impose, at a time of high interest rates and inflation, a real-terms 7 per cent reduction in Scotland’s capital block grant over the next four years, while the Prime Minister continues to dither over the tens of billions being squandered on the HS2 rail project?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Kenny Gibson is absolutely right to raise the UK Government’s real-terms cut of 7 per cent to our capital budget. We know that infrastructure investment is key to securing inclusive economic growth and delivering high-quality public services. We have been consistent and very open about the challenges facing our capital investment plans and the tough decisions that we will need to take in relation to the 2024-25 budget.

The challenging economic conditions of the past few years—resulting from Brexit, the disastrous mini-budget and the UK Government not inflation proofing the capital budget—have resulted in that 7 per cent real-terms fall in our Barnett capital funding over the medium term.

We will of course look at what innovative finance models we can use to power infrastructure investment in the years to come, but that job has been made considerably harder by the 7 per cent real-terms cut from the UK Government.

Ayr Station Hotel Fire

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

A fire has devastated the former Ayr station hotel, causing massive disruption to the rail network in the south-west of Scotland. I put on record my thanks to the firefighters who fought the fire and all the emergency workers involved. It is crucial that the rail station is reopened as soon as possible. What financial help will the Scottish Government give stakeholders to help pay for the substantial costs that they face to make the area safe and reopen this vital rail network?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I add my appreciation for our emergency services, in particular the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, which battled not just throughout the night but into the next day to ensure that the fire was under control.

Our emergency services have always had my utmost respect, which has only increased after the events at Ayr station hotel. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has remained in attendance, but there are no further signs of fire. As I understand it, the site should be handed over to South Ayrshire Council today. Sharon Dowey may know that ScotRail has introduced alternative arrangements, with an emergency timetable and train services running from Prestwick town, supported by replacement bus transport.

In response to Sharon Dowey’s direct question, the Government will be open to discussions about what support we can provide to secure the site as well as make sure that services are running as close to normal as possible.

Reinforced Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (Tillicoultry)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The First Minister may be aware that tenants and homeowners were moved out of their homes in Tillicoultry on Tuesday evening due to safety concerns after the identification of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete in the roof of their block of flats. Clearly, that is very upsetting and worrying for my constituents. What discussions is the Scottish Government having with Clackmannanshire Council following the identification of RAAC in those homes? Will financial assistance be made available to local authorities and registered social landlords that discover RAAC? What assistance and advice can be given to homeowners who find themselves in that situation?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

My thoughts are with the families who have had to leave their homes. I recognise the impact that that will have on them and I commend the quick action that was taken by Clackmannanshire Council to make sure that those households are safe.

There is regular dialogue between the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities about RAAC. Risk assessments related to RAAC are under way across the housing sector, and information will be provided as it becomes available. We are working closely with housing stakeholders to ensure that the necessary action is being taken when risks are identified. Claire Baker will know from previous ministerial statements on the issue that we have not received any additional funding from the United Kingdom Government to address RAAC concerns. Of course, if there are additional requests for funding from local authorities to deal with RAAC, we will give them due consideration.

A96 Dualling

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

In the programme for government, the First Minister reaffirmed the welcome commitment to dual the A96 between Inverness and Auldearn, including the Nairn bypass. In November last year, the then transport secretary assured the chamber that the necessary statutory orders relating to compulsory purchase and ancillary roads would be made in a matter of weeks. Nearly a year later, my constituents are still waiting. Will the First Minister ask the transport secretary to bring an oral statement to the Parliament in order to explain why there has been a further delay? The good people of Nairn and, indeed, the whole of the north of Scotland are surely entitled to know what is or is not going on.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The people of Inverness and Nairn are due an update. I am more than happy to consider a ministerial statement or, if it is more appropriate, a written update to the member and other members who have an interest in the A96.

Of course, our manifesto commitment remains to dual the A96—in particular, the Inverness to Nairn bypass. For reasons that are known to Fergus Ewing, outside the Inverness to Nairn section there is a review of options, which is taking place for a number of reasons, including our commitment to our climate obligations. The member is right that we are duty bound to give updates to members of the public in relation to our infrastructure projects, including the A96. I will give consideration to the ask that he has made and will decide what is the most appropriate way to update him, as well as members in the chamber and the public, on our latest plans for the A96.

Fatalities on Scotland’s Roads

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

Tragically, last year, there were 174 fatalities on Scotland’s roads. That number has increased by 23 per cent, year on year, and it is at its highest level since 2016. I am sure that many in the chamber, as well as our constituents, have been touched by those tragic accidents. However, that also comes against the backdrop of a 14 per cent drop in the number of police road traffic officers over the past decade. Many prominent road safety campaigners say that there is a clear link between that and the number of fatalities, as does the Scottish Police Federation.

Does the First Minister share my concerns and the concerns of road safety campaigners about those tragic statistics, and what is the Scottish Government going to do about them?

The First Minister

I absolutely agree with Jamie Greene that any life lost is a tragedy, and my condolences go out to every family and every community that has been impacted by a death on our roads.

What I would say to Jamie Greene is that we have increased funding to Police Scotland this financial year—there has been a significant increase to Police Scotland in terms of its resource budget—and, of course, we will continue to consider what more we can do to support Police Scotland. However, we also know that capital interventions on our roads can be quite important in this regard, whether they involve signage, appropriate speed cameras or other initiatives, and we will consider what more we can do to make our roads as safe as possible.

We have ambitious targets in relation to reducing deaths on our roads, and I will ensure that the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Net Zero and Just Transition writes to Jamie Greene with further details on action that we are taking on the issue.

Rosebank (Licensing)

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Yesterday’s decision by the United Kingdom Government to grant a licence to the Rosebank oil and gas field is nothing short of a climate catastrophe, condemning us to a future dependent on fossil fuels while the planet around us burns. It shows utter contempt for our environment and the future generations who will live with the consequences. Will the First Minister join me in condemning this decision, and can he say whether the UK Government carried out the necessary climate compatibility assessment before the licence was granted?

The First Minister

I have gone on record as saying that I think that it is the wrong decision to approve Rosebank at a time when the world is literally on fire, when the planet is burning and when we have seen the most devastating impacts of the climate catastrophe. Instead of climate leadership, what we have from the UK Government is complete and utter climate denial.

The future of the north-east is as a net zero capital, not the oil and gas capital. It is transitioning from that to a net zero capital. That is the future that I want to see for the north-east. [

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Members, let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

That is why we have invested £500 million in the just transition fund.

While the Conservatives believe in unlimited—infinite—oil and gas extraction, we believe in a greener, more sustainable future for Scotland. As ever, on this issue, as on many other issues, the Conservatives will be on the wrong side of history.

Point of Order

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. During a members’ business debate on 31 May, John Swinney intervened to say that I was incorrect in stating that United Kingdom swimming pool funding from the Treasury was in addition to the Scottish budget. Mr Swinney has now admitted to me that he was wrong, has apologised and has corrected the record, and I thank him for that.

On 29 June, I intervened on the Minister for Victims and Community Safety, Siobhian Brown—who is walking out of the chamber—to state the same basic fact. The minister responded that Barnett consequentials had already been added to the local authority block. She then wrote to me to apologise and corrected the record, and I thank her for that.

Yesterday, I asked the Minister for Local Government Empowerment and Planning, Joe Fitzpatrick, about the same UK swimming pool fund. In his response, he stated:

“As I said, the money has been allocated. It was allocated to budgets as part of £100 million of additional funding that went to local government at stage 3 of the budget bill.”—[O

fficial Report

, 27 September; c 20.]

Stage 3 of the budget was in February and, as John Swinney admitted to me in his apology, the money was allocated by the UK Government much later. For the SNP to make that mistake once was unfortunate. To make that mistake twice looks like incompetence. To make that mistake three times looks deliberate.

Presiding Officer, can you let me know if Joe Fitzpatrick has made any attempt to correct the record? Further, given the torrent of corrections that are now being issued by Scottish ministers, is there any action that you can take when such an important issue that affects our communities across Scotland has been obscured to such an extent?

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Thank you for your contribution, Mr Lumsden. I am unaware of whether any attempt to correct the record has been made. All members will agree that it is of paramount importance that members, including ministers, give accurate and truthful information to the Parliament, correcting any inadvertent errors at the earliest opportunity. If a member has a question about the factual accuracy of another member’s contribution, they should raise it with that member. I am sure that, at this point in the session, members are well aware that the Parliament has a corrections procedure and of how that mechanism operates.

We will have a short suspension to allow members of the public who are leaving the gallery to do so.

12:50 Meeting suspended.

12:51 On resuming—

Alcohol and Drug Deaths (“See Beyond—See the Lives—Scotland” Campaign)

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I ask members of the public who are leaving the public gallery to do so as quickly and quietly as possible, as business is resuming.

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-10164, in the name of Miles Briggs, on “See Beyond—See the Lives—Scotland”. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes the campaign, See Beyond - See the Lives - Scotland, developed by the University of Stirling, Scottish Families Affected by Alcohol and Drugs, Scottish Health Action on Alcohol Problems (SHAAP) and the Salvation Army; understands that the campaign aims to reduce the stigma that surrounds deaths due to alcohol and drugs; further understands that, behind every death, there are families, friends and communities who are experiencing devastating loss; recognises the importance of challenging the judgement and stereotypes that people often bring to the topic of substance use, and to people who have problems with alcohol or drugs and their families; commends the campaign pledge committing to be respectful and compassionate towards those affected by substance use, to use non-judgemental language when talking about substance use problems, and to reach out to those they know who have been affected to try to reduce the isolation and stigma that can be faced by those who have been bereaved in this way, and notes the calls on people across Scotland, including in the Lothian region, to sign the campaign pledge at seebeyondscotland.com.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I thank members from across the Parliament for their support for the motion, which has allowed this debate to take place, and I warmly welcome to the public gallery campaigners and those who have shared their letters to loved ones.

In my time as an MSP, I have opened and spoken in many members’ business debates, but this one is very different and very personal. I know that it will be the same for other members who will speak today. At the outset, I thank everyone who will speak in the debate, and I pay specific tribute to Monica Lennon, because, if it was not for her and her brave decision to speak about her dad, Gerard, in 2017, I do not think that I would be leading this debate today or have shared my story.

I think that I speak for all of us as elected representatives when I say that our first instinct, quite rightly, is to protect our families and loved ones from public scrutiny. After all, they have not put themselves forward for the scrutiny that we rightly should face. Perhaps most critically, we all want to protect our loved ones from what will often seem to be the negative prism of social media and strangers commenting on our family members. Therefore, when I agreed to speak about my dad, Jim, and my experiences growing up, it concerned me how people would judge him, judge me and judge my family. That is exactly why I felt that I needed to tell my dad’s story.

The stigma that many individuals and families face when they are supporting someone who is battling addiction is very real, and the stigma and judgment that people often face need to be addressed if we are to break down the barriers to people accessing help and support, and for our loved ones to have the confidence and self-worth to come forward.

I have genuinely been overwhelmed by the number of constituents, colleagues, journalists and people in different countries who have reached out since I wrote my letter and we launched the campaign.

For many people who experience problematic alcohol or drug use, there will often be a life event or trigger to that behaviour and any problematic addictions and issues that go on to develop. I can only imagine how difficult it was for my dad to lose my mum to breast cancer and to be left as a single parent with three children between the ages of seven and 14. My dad was a dreamer. He would often speak about his lifelong dream of moving the whole family to live in a wooden hut in the forests of the great Canadian wilderness. To be honest, I suppose that I am lucky that he made it only as far as Perthshire. My dad was entertaining and charismatic; arguably, he was at his best socially in the pub or at the races. As in many cases, that is probably where a problem with alcohol developed.

The message behind the campaign “See Beyond—See the Lives—Scotland” is that everyone knows someone. As the debate will demonstrate, everyone does know someone.

The campaign was launched in May by the University of Stirling, Scottish Families Affected by Alcohol and Drugs, Scottish Health Action on Alcohol Problems and the Salvation Army. Alongside Monica Lennon, I was pleased to help to launch the campaign in the Parliament, with 14 other people who have shared their letters to their loved ones.

When I spoke to families after that event, it was telling that many of their experiences were the same as mine and my family’s. Stigma is still attached to our loved ones speaking about problematic alcohol and drug use, not only from how people talk about that but from the judgments that they bring to it.

The notion that someone has done this to themselves and the labels that society often attaches to people are harmful. When they seek treatment and support, our loved ones face conscious and unconscious bias, sometimes even from overworked medical professionals.

In its briefing for the debate, Crisis said:

“Stigma Kills!

Stigma impacts on a person’s self-esteem, their mental wellbeing, limits their willingness and ability to engage with support services and ability to sustain changes in their lives.

People can change—but stigma holds them back.”

I hope that today’s debate will present an opportunity to change the conversation about alcohol and drug issues and to address the devastating impact that the loss of a loved one to alcohol or drugs has on their family and friends. I hope that people will visit the “See Beyond” website and support the campaign by agreeing to sign the pledge. I ask people to

“pledge to be respectful and compassionate towards those affected by substance use, including the families and friends of those who have died from alcohol or drugs”

and to pledge to

“show respect by using kind and non-judgmental language about those affected”—

our friends in the media in particular need to consider that when reporting stories. I also ask people to pledge to

“show compassion by reaching out to someone who has lost a loved one to alcohol or drugs”.

Many of us in Scotland have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and the role that alcohol plays in our culture and our society is often at the heart of that—from wetting the baby’s head and giving a good send-off at a wake to drowning our sorrows when times are tough and having alcohol at the heart of all our community, sporting and social lives.

Over the past 10 years, Scotland has lost more than 20,000 people to alcohol and drugs. I lost my dad. I know that we can make a difference, and that starts with ending stigma.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We move to the open debate.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

I thank Miles Briggs for securing this debate during international recovery month and for bravely sharing his experiences today. I am also beyond grateful to all the organisations that are involved in the powerful and vital “See Beyond—See the Lives—Scotland” campaign and to those who are sitting in the public gallery.

I give my sincere condolences to every person, family member, partner and friend who has tragically lost a loved one to alcohol, drugs or both. I have spoken before in the chamber about my family’s loss, so I will not go into that today, but we know that the issue touches all our lives, as Miles Briggs said.

Such deaths are preventable, yet every day in Scotland we lose more than six people in that way. All the people who have died recently or in years gone by are people whom our system failed.

Problem substance use is a complex issue that is often intricately connected with challenges of poverty, mental health, generational trauma or one-off events. It is critical to consider the social, cultural and economic drivers.

The impact of deindustrialisation remains stark, and that holds particularly true for my Uddingston and Bellshill constituency. Once a proud centre of coal mines and steelworks, Lanarkshire was sadly transformed, and mass unemployment and persistent poverty descended. Too many people found solace in using substances to escape the grinding reality of a life that they felt was devoid of joy or hope.

The most recent recorded local statistics show that there were 76 suspected drug deaths there during the first six months of this year—one of the highest recorded levels in Scotland. However, on a positive note, as we have already heard, many organisations are truly person centred and trauma informed, and focus on the whole person and their whole wellbeing.

In my constituency, the Blue Triangle service operates at the intersection of social care and social justice in a system that is designed to fix people issue by issue. The service says:

“We see the person, not their stuff, and our Mission is to Empower People to Thrive ... to provide a Springboard, not a Safety Net”.

The Beacons centre in nearby Blantyre is also fantastic. A young woman there bravely spoke of her personal battles with mental health and substance use, as well as the stigma that she experienced. She said:

“I was a dancer, I had ambition ... it just happened that there was deprivation, inequalities and adverse childhood experiences that got me.

Stigma is a barrier to recovery; you are so scared that you will be punished, or kids taken away from you”.

She said that the fear of losing her kids was terrifying, but what helped her recovery was being valued and accepted and rebuilding a sense of control and hope, not judgment, punishment or blame.

Stigma and inaccurate perceptions are devastating. They shatter self-esteem and confidence and limit individuals’ capacity to seek the essential support and treatment that they need, even when they want it. The media certainly play a role. Yesterday’s green light for Scotland’s first drug consumption room, which will offer easy access to key health and support services, resulted in social media headlines such as

“BREAKING: UK’s first illegal drugs consumption room given go-ahead”

and

“First illegal drugs consumption room”.

Some of those headlines have already gone, but the damage stays. Sadly, a life-saving policy was manipulated to reinforce criminal stereotypes and to dehumanise. As leaders, we must challenge those headlines.

We all have a responsibility to reflect on our communication, words and language; to be kind; to talk about the person, not the substance user; and to be catalysts for kindness, change and social renewal.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

I am proud to take part in this debate with colleagues from across the chamber, for whom I have immense respect when it comes to this subject. I thank Miles Briggs, my colleague and friend, for being personal and open about his experiences. I also thank the stakeholders who brought the campaign

“See Beyond—See the Lives—Scotland” to the Parliament.

I will use the campaign’s title as the guide for my comments. We are used to many debates like today’s and I often think that they are great debates, in which there a lot of do-goodery and warm words are shared across the chamber. What does today’s debate focus on? What is it saying to us and asking of us? What does “See Beyond—See the Lives” mean?

At first glance, I guess that we are being asked, as politicians, to see beyond the substance, the alcohol, the drink or the demon—to see beyond the drug addicts or alcoholics and see them as human beings, not as alkies and junkies, as they are too often seen. We are being asked to see them as our dad, mum, sibling or child.

I do not have siblings or children, but I had a dad who was an alcoholic—and a violent one at that. I am now the age that he was when he succumbed to his illness. In fact, when I was writing my speech yesterday, I realised that his funeral was so long ago that I barely remember it. I also have a mum who is five years sober. I am very proud of her and she is very much alive. I do not intend to rehearse those stories in great detail today.

For many of the reasons that Miles Briggs eloquently told us, there is still a huge amount of shame and stigma around the subject. However, last year, I did an interview with

Holyrood

magazine, which was the hardest interview that I have had to give in politics. We all have our personal stories—no one is immune to or above the subject. For the relatives of an alcoholic, it can be really hard to see beyond the fear, pain, anger, confusion and utter despair that they experience—more so if they are doing it on their own and if they are a young person or the child of the alcoholic.

It is difficult to see beyond the consequences of the person’s drinking and the absolute mess that is often left behind for relatives and loved ones, including deteriorating health—financial and physical—endless desperate ringing around for help, calls to the bank to try to block cards, failure to secure power of attorney, attending funerals and even being at the hands of violence.

However, the reality is that when we strip away the masking effects of the alcohol—the pretend person that it has made them—deep down, underneath it all we often find a warm, loving, helpless and desperate person who is simply crying out for help from us and from the system. The problem is that such help is not always there.

When we try to help someone to face the illness, the stigma is unbelievable—in fact, sometimes it is disgusting. I have heard phrases like, “Well, she’s just a selfish alkie”, “He’s a monster when he’s drunk”, “They’re not worth the help—they deserve what they get”, “That’s their choice in life—they’re all adults and they chose that path” or, even worse, “They’re beyond help”. No one is beyond help.

We have difficult and even divisive debates about whether drug takers are criminals or victims of health problems, but when was the last time we had a proper conversation about problem drinking? Let us see the lives of those people through their own eyes, because they often know the damage that they are doing to themselves. They are far too often self-medicating to deal with horrific problems and experiences. They often also feel so much guilt because they know the hurt that they are causing their loved ones.

We should see those lives through their friends, their relatives and the survivors—in particular, those who have had to grieve. We should see the lives of those who have recovered. People do recover and are in recovery. Let us see the difference, which is as stark as night and day, and black and white, when we see someone who is in recovery.

When I think of my mum’s recovery—she will not mind my saying this—the thing that pleases me most is that as she emerged from the darkness of that illness, she grew to rediscover who she was as a person. She became more herself again. Her humour, her wit, her interests, her hobbies, her intellect and her emotions all returned slowly but surely.

As a family, we take nothing for granted. Every day is a new day, but only if someone in that dark, deep place can look ahead and see a parallel future, free of the shackles of the disease. It is not easy for them to imagine, but it is a beautiful thing when they do.

Every such death is avoidable. What we can do as MSPs is complete the pledge that the campaign asks of us. I pledge to be respectful, compassionate and non-judgmental, and to reach out to someone who needs my help. I make that pledge today. Let us all make it.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

Colleagues will know that I am not often stuck for words, but Miles Briggs has made a habit of making me cry in Parliament in recent months. I am genuinely grateful to him for bringing the debate to Parliament and for bringing colleagues together, and I am grateful to members who signed the motion but could not be here to speak. I thank everyone in the gallery—I am trying not to make any eye contact, right now.

This is a debate, and what we say matters, but it is also important to have the space in the chamber to listen and to show compassion and kindness, which we hope will resonate in our communities.

I thank Miles Briggs for mentioning my dad, Gerard—Gerry—at the start, and for talking about his lovely dad, Jim. We are two different MSPs from different parties, different parts of the chamber and different parts of the country, and our two dads were, I am sure, very different, but at the end of the day, we can see that there is a common thread that joins us. It is a pity that Miles Briggs and I are not sitting together for this debate, because a hug would be nice right now.

When we were approached to be part of the campaign, it was a huge honour. I did not want to turn up looking like I am right now, with a runny nose and wet eyes, but I suppose that that is what it is about: it is about showing our vulnerability and being honest that this is really hard. It is hard to find the words. Some days it is a bit easier than others but, as they say, “One day at a time.”

I am really grateful to the University of Stirling, the Salvation Army, Scottish Families Affected by Alcohol and Drugs and SHAAP for reaching out to us. I also thank the people who are here, in the gallery.

A lot of good stuff is happening out there; Stephanie Callaghan was right to talk about some of the projects, charities and groups that are doing the work. Over the summer, after our parliamentary event was held, I got out in Lanarkshire and elsewhere to chat and see what was going on. There is a lot of love, kindness and compassion out there, but we need to scale up the work and make sure that there is funding to do it.

The barriers are real and stigma is a killer. People might ask why we are discussing stigma when we should be talking about legislation, policy and funding. All those things are important—we need everything—but stigma is a killer because people are frightened to ask for help. They are worried about the police being at the door and about social work services using their substance use against them. What will the school say? What will people say at work? What might our colleagues in Parliament think of us if we say that substance use is an issue for us?

The Eva Burrows 1st Stop project in Cambuslang is one that I have spent time with. It is doing amazing work to end stigma and to bring tackling homelessness into the equation. We have had really good briefings on that from Turning Point Scotland and Crisis. We know that we are not doing enough and that we need to do more. It is a public health crisis.

Presiding Officer, I hope that you will indulge me, because we do not have a lot of speakers in the debate from the Labour benches. I want to talk about the letter that I wrote to my dad. It took me ages to write it. I looked at everyone else’s letters and was so amazed and impressed by them that I could not write mine. I found it very hard—so Miles Briggs completed his homework before I did. I talk to my dad when I visit the cemetery and so on. I know that that might sound weird, but we need to talk about bereavement, dying and grief a bit more.

I suppose that what I wrote was a love letter to my dad. I will not read it all now; it is on the website, and people can see the video. I was really struck by Ann’s letter to her friend Carol. Ann talked about her guilt. In my letter to my dad, I said:

“There were times it was too difficult to be around. Too many days when it was too painful to run to you. On those dark days when we were apart, I hope you know you were always loved.”

I wrote that because there was a lot of anger, isolation and distance. That guilt is real.

Some of the stigma that I experienced as a family member was through the national health service. People know that I am a huge champion of our NHS, but we need the kindness that I spoke of not just from our politicians but from our general practitioners, our nurses, our doctors and so on.

I will end with this, and I do not it say for sympathy. We have missed out on so many moments and milestones spent together because of avoidable deaths. All the family members of the 20,000 people who have lost their lives over the past decade will get that. In my case, my dad and I talking about politics, and debating ideas, influenced me in my life, but my dad died the year before I was elected to the Scottish Parliament. I struggle with that. In the letter, I say:

“If you’d lived one more year to see me elected to the Scottish Parliament, it would have been a special moment for us to share.”

I will stop there, Presiding Officer. Thank you for your indulgence. I want anyone who is struggling today to know that they are not alone and that they can reach out. Get on that website and get people to sign the pledge. We have a lot of work to do, but we can do it together, because we have to see beyond, and we have to see the lives.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Ms Lennon. I am sure that your dad would be enormously proud.

I call Beatrice Wishart.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

I thank Miles Briggs for bringing this important debate to the chamber. When I attended the “See Beyond” parliamentary event in June, I heard moving and powerful contributions from family members and friends of people who have died because of alcohol or drugs, including from our MSP colleagues Miles Briggs and Monica Lennon. I commend them both for their work on this important issue. I know that many across Scotland sadly share that experience, and I thank everyone who shared their stories at the event.

Alcohol and drug addiction can be devastating to communities, family, friends and, of course, the person with the addiction. Today might not be the time for this conversation, but I observe parallels with gambling addiction. The stigma associated with that addiction also causes people to hide their problems, which makes seeking help harder.

It is true that everyone knows someone. I could share stories about drug and alcohol addiction that are close to home, but living in a small community means that people and families could be easily identified from what I might say, so I will obviously not do so. Suffice it to say that I have a great understanding and empathise with people who have experienced addiction personally or as a friend or family member. I know that children who grow up in households where there is addiction can be impacted both in the short term and long into their adult lives.

Nobody chooses to have an addiction, but we live in a world with less compassion than we would like to admit. There is a long history of stigmatisation of and discrimination against people with addictions. Drug and alcohol addiction stigma can have serious consequences. Feeling judged can prevent a person from seeking support and treatment and stigma can erode self-esteem and is linked to mental health problems. Family and friends of someone with a drug or alcohol addiction can be affected by feelings of shame and guilt, and, when bereaved, people can find it difficult to speak openly about losing someone to drugs or alcohol and get the support that they need. Organisations that provide support to people with addictions are stigmatised, too, and communities can become defined by substance abuse, causing them to feel isolated. It is important that we tackle stigma so that the people who are affected by alcohol and drugs can get better and more timely support.

Removing stigma involves effort from all of us, across society. As the “See Beyond” pledge states, that effort involves a commitment to being “respectful and compassionate” towards those affected by substance use; using “non-judgmental language” when talking about substance use problems; and “reaching out” to those who have been affected. Those steps are important to take. Addiction is a health issue and should be treated with help and support, not judgment.

Scotland will soon have its first safe consumption room, which is a measure that has received widespread support and seeks to protect some of the most vulnerable people from overdose. Evidence from other countries shows that safe consumption rooms save lives and can provide a point of contact with services that people with problematic drug use might otherwise face barriers in accessing.

Action must take place on many fronts to reduce the harm that is caused by drug and alcohol addiction. In my constituency of Shetland, the charity Dogs Against Drugs was set up over 20 years ago following a number of drug-related deaths in the isles, each of which was a tragedy. It has two main activities: seizure through use of trained drug detection dogs of drugs that arrive in Shetland, and drugs education in schools to prevent substance use.

Recognition of the intersecting issues that contribute to addiction means addressing homelessness, treating mental health problems, reducing poverty and ensuring that tackling stigma is integrated across all actions. At the heart of everything must be the people who live with addiction and their friends, families and communities.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

As we know, problem drinking is an issue and, sadly, Scotland has an unenviable reputation across the world, as alcohol is embedded right in the heart of our culture. There are no signs of that situation changing; indeed, more than four in 10 non-drinkers perceive that others think that they are odd for not drinking. The situation affects young and old, rich and poor, and our towns and cities as well as rural and remote communities, with around one in four people drinking at hazardous or harmful levels.

Recent statistics reveal that, in Dumfries and Galloway, the number of people who died of an alcohol-specific death last year amounted to 36. Those figures might not be the worst in comparison to the average in Scotland, but they simply cannot be ignored or glossed over because, as the motion states,

“behind every death, there are families, friends and communities who are experiencing devastating loss”.

According to NHS Dumfries and Galloway and based on data from 2017 to 2021, 30 per cent of men and 11 per cent of women exceed daily or weekly recommended drinking limits. A total of 442 people were admitted to hospital in the region due to alcohol-related illness. Those stats make for worrying reading.

It is concerning that the number of Scots who are gaining access to receive treatment for problem drinking has fallen dramatically at a time when the number of alcohol-related deaths is soaring. That

is not only regrettable; it is shameful. The Government has admitted that it took its eye off the ball on the drug deaths crisis, and I fear that it is doing exactly the same with deaths caused by alcohol.

I recognise the fantastic staff and volunteers who work in drug and alcohol addiction support in Dumfries and Galloway, but the one big barrier is stigma, which limits the number of people who come forward. The problem is not going to go away and cannot be brushed under the carpet. It needs swift action as well as increased resources to help those who need support when they seek it.

Are we really sending out the right message to anyone who is struggling with alcohol? I do not think that we are. We cannot simply acknowledge the issue, particularly because of the stigma, guilt and embarrassment that we have been talking about today. When people come forward, we cannot just say that we know that they have a problem but we are sorry that there is no treatment programme places available.

We need to remove the stigma that surrounds addiction in all its forms if we are to stand any chance of addressing the issue. Huge efforts have been made to remove the stigma that is attached to drug addiction, and we need to take the same approach to alcohol. The “See Beyond” campaign aims to reduce that stigma.

My grandfather died 50 years ago. He was a successful and well-respected businessman and it was not until many years later that my mother admitted that he was an alcoholic. Until then, his illness was referred to as “problems with his nerves”. He spent time in a mental hospital, but the reality was that he had a serious problem with alcohol abuse and it affected my grandmother, who was not able to talk about it because of the stigma. That was 50 years ago, but little has changed.

One of my very best friends died a few months ago. He was an amazing musician and the best of friends, but he clearly had a problem with alcohol. None of us stepped in. He was what is often referred to as a functioning alcoholic, but alcohol was almost certainly a contributing factor to him losing his job and, ultimately, his life. There was no death notice, no funeral and no chance to share our grief with the family; there was just silence. I would love to name him and pay tribute to him, but there is clearly so much stigma surrounding his death that his family is not able to cope with it. That is not a criticism; it is just a reflection of the stigma that still exists to this day.

That must change, and the “See Beyond” campaign is making progress on that. Today, I ask the minister and his Government to act swiftly to ensure that the many Scots who are struggling with alcohol issues, as well as their families, friends and communities, get the vital support that is necessary to tackle this growing epidemic.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

I start by thanking Miles Briggs for bringing such an important debate to the chamber. As other members have done, I thank him and Monica Lennon for their personal letters.

I also thank Lucy, Holly, Zoe, Fiona, Peter, Andy, Gerry, Pauline, Irene, Caroline, Ann, Philip and Lorraine—I hope that I have not missed anyone—for sharing their heart-wrenching stories of love, loss and hope for the future.

It is unfortunate that we require to have this debate, but it is a reality that we must do so, because judgment and stigma continue, as we have heard. If our approach to changing that does not include accepting where we have gone wrong in the past and where we are not getting it quite right now, we are doing a disservice to those who already have become, or who could become, dependent, and their friends, their families and their communities. I say to all my colleagues in the Parliament that we must listen to their stories and seek to understand how and why stigma affects people and their loved ones while they are navigating an often tremendously difficult time in their lives.

I am not going to repeat the statistics that we have heard today, but every individual who has lost their life through alcohol or drug dependency is a loss before their time, and it must always be remembered that their friends and family have lost a loved one. Every life lost is an absolute tragedy.

This is a public health emergency and it must be treated in that way. That includes our being respectful and compassionate to others. The point about the way in which the media present the issue is important, and I call on all parliamentarians to challenge such language, because we know that it affects people.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

Will the member give way on that point?

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

Of course.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

Now that I have composed myself, I will make one of the points that I had hoped to get to. Sometimes, we get good articles and features, the words of which are on point, but when it comes to the headlines and the photos, stigma creeps back in. Does Carol Mochan agree that there is more work to do on media reporting and that it is not just about the copy but the photos and the headlines?

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

I absolutely agree with that point. I will make a point that crystallises it.

As I often do, I will talk about the impact of alcohol and drug harm on our most vulnerable communities. People in Scotland’s most deprived communities are five times more likely to die because of alcohol-related disease and 16 times more likely to die from drug misuse than those in our least deprived communities. The impacts of alcohol harm are wide ranging and can affect anyone, but I am sure that we all want to address the fact that, in 2023, those harms are still felt acutely in our most vulnerable communities.

That links to the point that Monica Lennon made, that those communities are often already stigmatised. Therefore, it is really important that we strive to not stigmatise certain communities and people who perhaps have dependencies that they are trying to work with. We need a strategy that is underpinned by kindness. It is imperative that we have a compassionate preventative approach that tackles the root causes of some of the problems in our communities, and that we crystallise in people’s minds the point that we must always treat people with kindness and respect.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, I wish that we did not have to have the debate, but we do. I encourage everyone who can do so to listen to the stories and sign up to the pledge.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I, too, thank Miles Briggs for lodging the motion as we welcome and support the work of the “See Beyond—See the Lives—Scotland” campaign. I spoke to Miles Briggs after I had read his letter. I said to him that his honesty and courage shone through. I thank him very much for doing that.

When I read Monica Lennon’s letter, I thought about my relationship with my dad and the excitement of waiting for him to come home. It was a love letter. It was beautiful.

The Minister for Drugs and Alcohol Policy, Elena Whitham, was present at the event in the garden lobby in June, and I know that she was moved by those who chose to share their experiences as family members who have tragically lost someone due to substance use. They included Miles Briggs and Monica Lennon.

When I was preparing for this speech, I watched a few of the videos on the campaign’s website. The feelings of honesty and grief, but also, as Carol Mochan said, love and hope, shone out from all of them. I thank those involved very much.

I appreciate how difficult and painful such situations are. However, as other members said, it is only by listening to the voices of people with lived experience that we will find the right solutions and truly understand the damage that stigma does. The debate shows that we are gaining a clearer understanding of the harms of stigma and that it is necessary to work together across the parties to tackle it.

I am pleased to say that, since the event earlier this year, officials have been working with the coalition of partners who have delivered the “See Beyond” campaign to support them to share it further. It is a powerful resource and we are committed to ensuring that families across the country that have lost a loved one to substance abuse can see that they are not alone. As Jamie Greene said in his beautiful speech, for which I thank him,

“No one is beyond help.”

We have set out the principles of how we will improve holistic support for families that are affected by drugs and alcohol in our framework “Families Affected by Drug and Alcohol Use in Scotland: A Framework for Holistic Whole Family Approaches and Family Inclusive Practice”, which was published in December 2021. That framework recognises that all family members need help and support, both in order to be involved in their loved one’s recovery and in their own right. In order to realise that, we are investing more than £6.5 million per year to improve family support. That is provided both through alcohol and drug partnerships and directly to vital front-line organisations via a grant funding programme.

It is essential that we invest in networks of community family support to enable families to talk to and support one another, giving them safe and supportive platforms to reach out to others who share the same experiences.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

I am grateful to the minister for her kind words. From my experience of living through this, trying to assist someone to get on the path to recovery, the reality is that you feel very alone. You are often signposted to so many different places, most of which are overwhelmed and overstretched. Some of them do not even exist any more—they have shut down.

There needs to be a clear central place for family members or people who are trying to help people with substance abuse to go, so that they can pick up the phone and get immediate help from somebody who is local to them. It is the local nature of, and quick and easy access to, a service that is so important, and that one-to-one contact with someone who will help them. For far too many, that is simply not there at the moment. I hope that that can improve.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I thank Mr Greene for that intervention. He has put that on the record, and I am sure that my colleague Elena Whitham or her officials will get back to him on that. He made a powerful point.

We know that stigma can inhibit that vital connection with families, who may feel judged and isolated. Stigma is driven by assumptions that are not based on fact or evidence—we see and hear the harmful stereotypes far too often. That is why campaigns such as “See Beyond” are so important in bringing attention to the damage that is caused by stigma. It can be difficult to share our painful experiences, and it can be challenging to hear them, but, as a society, we cannot turn away from that. Stephanie Callaghan, in her contribution, highlighted the fact that it is about not judgment or blame, but hope.

In sharing their stories, the families who took part in the “See Beyond” campaign are bravely showing other families across Scotland that they are not alone. It is essential that we are able to foster a culture in which we can speak openly and without fear about losing a loved one due to drugs or alcohol, or about one’s own experiences of drugs or alcohol abuse.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

I am grateful to the minister for her comments. It is good that she is here in her capacity as the minister for public health. One of the organisations that I spent time with this summer is the Scottish Association for Mental Health. It has an individual placement and support service in North Lanarkshire, and it stressed to me that employment can be a health outcome on someone’s journey.

However, I heard some worrying stories about people in the workplace. If someone was living with cancer, people would—one would hope—be very supportive, but substance abuse has been treated somewhat differently. Some people said that they had been asked to sign up to drug and alcohol testing as a condition of coming back to work, but, when I asked them about it, it did not sound as if they had given fully informed consent to that.

Are there conversations that the minister could have with other colleagues in Government? We need to look at the matter holistically. I feel that there is workplace stigma. There are some really good employers and there are some who just do not get it. Could we do some more work on that?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can give you the time back, minister.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Thank you.

I thank Monica Lennon for that intervention, as she raised an important point. My previous employer, a while ago, had very clear guidelines that everyone understood and worked towards, which I thought was really positive. We are working across ministerial portfolios, so I am happy to look at what the member described.

Together, we can tackle prejudice and discrimination towards people who are affected by substance use. I confirm that the Scottish Government absolutely recognises drug dependency as a health condition and that people who are affected by substance use should be treated with the same compassion as those who are experiencing any other health condition.

I also want to reflect on what Beatrice Wishart said. Last week, I was at the Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland self-management awards, where the keynote speaker talked about gambling as a public health issue.

Our stigma action plan was developed with input from our third sector partners. In the coming months, the detail of the work will be co-produced with people who have lived and living experience, including families. Through a new voluntary accreditation scheme, we will target the structural and systemic stigma that is too often embedded in organisations. Member organisations will be asked to show how they are actively supporting people who are affected by substance misuse by removing barriers.

We will also introduce a national programme to target public stigma, challenge uninformed assumptions and highlight the fact that a health condition such as substance dependency should not be used to define or punish people or their families.

Stigma is fed by the myth that addiction is a choice and that people can stop using drugs if only they try hard enough. There are many reasons why people use drugs and alcohol. For some, it is to try the experience. For some, it is an occasional thing, but others use them to cope with trauma or pain. No matter the reason, no one chooses addiction. We do have a choice, however: we must choose to actively fight stigma and to respond to the drug emergency with kindness and compassion. We can all learn to do that.

Alongside our work to support families and tackle stigma, Scotland has set out an ambitious way forward for respecting and enhancing human rights, and the forthcoming human rights bill will give effect to a range of internationally recognised human rights in Scots law. Those include the right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health and the rights to adequate housing and an adequate standard of living. The incorporation of those rights into Scots law through the bill will play an important role in tackling the stigma of substance dependency across Scotland by ensuring that everyone’s human rights are respected, protected and fulfilled.

By working together across the chamber with vital organisations such as those behind “See Beyond” and with those whose lives have been affected by substance use, we can end stigma. Every person in Scotland can also play their part by reaching out with kindness, providing a listening ear and treating people who are affected by alcohol and drugs with respect. As Miles Briggs said, everyone knows someone.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, minister. That concludes the debate, and I suspend this meeting of Parliament until 2.30 pm.

13:37 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—

Transport, Net Zero and Just Transition

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is portfolio question time, and the portfolio is transport, net zero and just transition. I remind members that, if they seek to ask a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question or, if online, enter the letters RTS in the chat function.

Network Rail (Meetings)

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

1. Earlier this month, the Minister for Transport confirmed a very welcome investment of around £140 million in the East Kilbride rail enhancement—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I am sorry, Ms Stevenson. Could I ask you to resume your seat for a second? The question that needs to be asked is your principal question, as per question 1 in the

Business Bulletin

, starting with “To ask the Scottish Government”.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Apologies, Presiding Officer, for my mistake.

To ask the Scottish Government when it last met with Network Rail and what was discussed. (S6O-02568)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I attended a meeting on Tuesday to discuss the forthcoming peak fares removal pilot, and Network Rail was represented at the meeting. My officials at Transport Scotland have regular discussions with Network Rail on a full range of subjects concerning the operation, maintenance, renewal and enhancement of the Scottish railway network. Most recently, for example, officials met Network Rail yesterday at the Scotland’s railway business briefing, which was attended by Andrew Haines and Alex Hynes. Today, officials are meeting Network Rail and South Ayrshire Council to discuss Ayr station.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

I will start again. Earlier this month,

the minister confirmed a very welcome investment of around £140 million in the East Kilbride rail enhancement

project. I was pleased to hear that we will have new stations at East Kilbride and Hairmyres, as well as an extension to double tracking. Will the minister outline the other benefits of the enhancements to my constituents in East Kilbride, as well as for the environment?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Electrification of the route will enable quieter, more reliable and greener electric trains. It will transform the customer experience and contribute to the Scottish Government’s decarbonisation commitments. The extension of the infrastructure at Hairmyres will improve operational resilience and flexibility of service, and the new station buildings at East Kilbride and Hairmyres will make rail services more accessible and, I hope, attractive. The transport interchange at Hairmyres will provide users with choices in how they travel to and from the station, including sustainable modes, which in turn will deliver environmental benefits.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Many years ago, the Scottish Government announced £200 million to decrease journey times between Aberdeen and the central belt by 20 minutes by 2026. Was that discussed with Network Rail? Will the minister provide an update on how much of the £200 million has been spent to date and on when passengers in the north-east will start to see improvements to journey times?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I am glad that Douglas Lumsden is so supportive of the decarbonisation plans to ensure that we have electrification, which can improve journey times, among other things. As I set out, the subject of my most recent discussion with Network Rail, on Monday, was the launch of the peak fares removal pilot, which many people are looking forward to.

If there is any further detail that I can provide on spend from what was a commitment some time ago, I will, but we have obviously had a number of budgets since then.

Douglas Lumsden will be well aware that the problems caused in the United Kingdom economy and budget by his party, among other issues, have led to real constraints on infrastructure spend. As outlined by the Auditor General for Scotland only today, that has put big pressures on our spend. However, our commitment on electrification still stands.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

Network Rail has previously been open to discussing the potential upgrade of the south suburban line. A train-tram solution would see vehicles running on the south suburban line, then transferring to streets to achieve convenient and more direct access to the city centre. What discussion has the Scottish Government had with Network Rail regarding the train-tram solution? Will it consider running a feasibility study on the proposal?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I do not have the details to hand of the latest discussions between Network Rail and Transport Scotland on that, which I know is something that many people in Edinburgh think would be a sensible way forward. The strategic transport projects review 2 set out priorities and future opportunities. In Glasgow, the metro would be used to enhance a multimodal approach to transport, along with light rail and other modes, and there may be potential for a similar project in Edinburgh, which would be beneficial. There are many priorities and interests. If I can follow up in writing to let the member know about recent discussions, I will do so.

Multimodal Smart Card

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government when it will introduce a nationwide multimodal smart card. (S6O-02569)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I am pleased to announce that we will imminently issue letters to appoint members to our newly formed national smart ticketing advisory board. Following acceptance by those members, that unique forum will include passenger, operator and public body representation to advise me and will take a collaborative approach that will ensure consistency for customers and industry.

That will build on smart activity to date, including the already established and widely accepted multimodal smart card platform used for both commercial and concessionary smart tickets on rail, bus, subway, tram and ferry by the users of the 2 million smart cards in circulation across Scotland.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The Scottish Government has been talking about having a national smart card for well over a decade, but nothing has happened. When Humza Yousaf was transport minister in 2016, he published a report that said:

“The passenger is the end user of smart ticketing and it is critical that they see benefits in a consistent experience across Scotland from multi-modal smart ticketing.”

Nothing has happened since then and the minister has just announced yet another talking shop. Why has nothing happened and, to go back to my original question, when will we see smart ticketing?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I am not sure that the member listened to my initial answer. There has been significant progress to date on smart ticketing, which includes the availability of smart ticketing for both concession and commercial tickets for those using the 2 million smart cards in circulation and the 98 per cent of our bus journeys that are now being paid for by contactless card. The use of mobile ticketing for rail journeys has also expanded.

I do not think that the industry advisers who will sit on the national smart ticketing advisory board will take kindly to the member’s description of them.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

To travel from Unst, the most northerly island in Shetland, to Edinburgh by using only public transport, a traveller needs multiple bus and interisland ferry tickets and a further ticket for the NorthLink ferry to Aberdeen, and they must then buy a rail ticket for onward travel on the mainland. The fair fares review has been promised for some time. Will that review include an outline of the solutions to those barriers to flexible travel, such as the integrated smart cards that have been promised for some time?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The member makes an important point about the fair fares review, which is as much about accessibility as it is about affordability. Consistency matters. I do not know the detail about Shetland in particular, but, when I visited Transport Scotland this week, work was taking place to integrate, for Orkney, exactly the forms of transport and digital ticketing that the member described. I will find out information about Shetland in particular and give that to the member.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Why was it possible for delegates attending the 26th UN climate change conference of the parties—COP26—to have that functionality when ordinary Scots cannot, even all this time later?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I had a recent meeting with Strathclyde Passenger Transport, which has well developed plans and proposals that I am very keen to support. Many people, including 2 million smart card users, are using the existing smart technology and the specific project in Strathclyde will address the point that the member makes.

Fort William (Integrated Transport Plan)

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

3. To ask the Scottish Government how it is progressing its integrated transport plan for Fort William to reduce congestion and increase resilience and reliability on the trunk road network. (S6O-02570)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The proposed integrated transport plan is a recommendation that emerged from strategic transport projects review 2, and Transport Scotland has started early preparatory, planning and governance work to support its development. I recently had the pleasure of visiting Fort William, and during my visit I had several discussions with stakeholders on transport, including on the proposed plan. The Scottish Government and Transport Scotland will work with our active partners in Fort William 2040 to ensure that the future of the town is considered in a place-based way that benefits the entire town—its people, businesses and visitors.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

I know that the local community in Fort William hugely appreciated the minister’s visit over the summer. She will know from that visit that the A82 is a primary route not just for locals but for anybody who travels from south to north along the west coast. However, during the summer in particular but also throughout the year, it can take more than an hour to travel a mile on that road. That has a massive impact on business haulage, on emergency services and on people getting about Fort William for their daily business.

Does the minister have any ideas about how Transport Scotland can progress a permanent long-term solution to this challenge?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The points that the member raises were clearly articulated to me when I made my visit to Fort William in the summer. I recognise the importance of the A82 through Fort William and the western Highlands and I recognise the challenges that additional traffic, particularly during the tourism season, places on the local community.

The continued impact of congestion on reliability has led to the proposals for a bypass being revisited as part of STPR2. Some form of bypass, bearing in mind the constraints that exist on the project, forms part of the thinking for the Fort William 2040 masterplan development.

Congestion Charging Schemes

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the introduction of road traffic congestion charging schemes. (S6O-02571)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

The Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 established a discretionary power for local authorities to implement road user charging schemes on the basis that they are best placed to determine whether a scheme will support objectives in their local transport strategy. We welcome local authorities’ commitment to local measures that support delivery of a 20 per cent reduction in car kilometres, including the commitments of the City of Edinburgh Council and Glasgow City Council to a 30 per cent car kilometre reduction. We will work with local authorities to support equitable measures that will encourage active travel and greater investment in public transport for a fairer and greener transport system.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

We know that Scottish National Party councillors in Glasgow are plotting a congestion charge that will hammer hard-working people who need their cars in order to do their jobs. Many have already been penalised by the punitive low-emission zone scheme, which has also hit shops and nightlife. Glasgow Chamber of Commerce is clear that this is happening only because SNP ministers are cutting cash to councils. Will the money that is taken from the pockets of motorists by any congestion charge be used to urgently repair dangerous roads and invest in public transport?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

Russell Findlay’s characterisation of the opportunity for reduced congestion, greater air quality and more space for walking, wheeling and cycling is quite extraordinary—and inflammatory, I would suggest. As I set out in my initial answer, powers to introduce road user charging schemes already rest with local authorities. They have done so since 2001. As I said, I welcome the encouraging signs from both Glasgow City Council and the City of Edinburgh Council that they are committed to car kilometres reduction because of the opportunities that it creates, which I narrated at the beginning of my answer, for better spaces to live, work and spend time in.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The cabinet secretary should look more closely at what the deputy leader of the SNP in Glasgow has said. He has made it very clear that this is about raising money from people who live in areas outside Glasgow, rather than trying to tackle congestion. Is that the best way to take people with us when we are trying to tackle climate change?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

On the specifics of that point, just the other day, in my response to a written question from Pauline McNeill—I understand that it will have landed with her—I was clear that the Scottish Government has had discussions with Glasgow City Council in the context of those local measures to support delivery of a 20 per cent car kilometres reduction, but the Scottish Government has not had discussions with the council regarding any specific congestion charging schemes, including on charging drivers who are not resident in Glasgow. Councils are accountable to their local communities and they have the ability to decide whether they should implement measures such as local congestion charging.

Just Transition (North-east Stakeholder Discussions)

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

5. To ask the Scottish Government for its response to the Robert Gordon University report, “Powering up the Workforce”.

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

The Robert Gordon University report shows Scotland’s enormous energy potential and demonstrates that we possess—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I am sorry—will the cabinet secretary resume her seat?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

Yes, of course.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Sorry, Ms Nicoll—while I was looking at another issue, my attention was drawn to the fact that the question that you asked is not the question that appears in the

Business Bulletin

. [

Interruption

.] Ms Nicoll needs to read out the question that she has asked per the

Business Bulletin

, so perhaps one of her colleagues could helpfully provide her with that.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

I have it now. My apologies.

To ask the Scottish Government when it last met with stakeholders in the north-east to discuss its just transition strategy. (S6O-02572)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

In my role as cabinet secretary, I have the pleasure of spending a great deal of time in the north-east. Most recently, I was there on 15 September—two Fridays ago. Among the visits that I undertook were visits to those who are currently in receipt of funding from the Scottish Government via the just transition fund. Those included helping to launch the energy transition skills hub with North East Scotland College in the energy transition zone, which is in receipt of £4.5 million from the just transition fund and which will help 1,000 people into energy transition jobs over the next five years.

I also had the opportunity to visit Camphill school, where I learned about its Murtle market project, which helps young people and children with complex needs to develop skills for the transition. I am pleased that we were able to support that financially as well.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

The Rosebank project has been given the go-ahead. Although the oil and gas industry continues to make a significant contribution to our economy, it is clear that we must balance our future energy needs with our climate obligations—critically, ensuring a fair and just transition to net zero for our workforce.

The report that was published by the Robert Gordon University outlined that the number of people employed offshore could rise from just over 150,000 in 2023 to 225,000 by 2030, with new renewables jobs outnumbering oil and gas roles if a successful transition is achieved. What action is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that we do not lose that once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, particularly in the face of the United Kingdom Government’s disappointing—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Ms Nicoll, you have gone over your time.

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

This week’s developments on Rosebank confirm a number of concerns that the Scottish Government has had for a long time. Those relate principally to the size of the field, the fact that it will primarily produce oil and the fact that that oil is due principally to be exported and therefore cannot contribute to national energy security which, alongside climate concerns, I understand to be very important.

The Robert Gordon University’s report shows enormous energy potential and demonstrates that Scotland possesses the natural resources and the skills that are required to lead the global energy transition.

I mentioned the £4.5 million that we have invested in the energy transition skills hub and the 1,000 people whom it will train over the coming years. We have also invested £11 million in a skills passport; £5 million in an energy skills passport, which will support the transition of skills and jobs across offshore energy sectors; and £1 million in a skills accelerator, which will deliver pilot training courses in the area.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

After Rosebank was given the go-ahead yesterday, Sir Ian Wood, who has more than 60 years of experience and a track record of business success, said that it would accelerate a just transition to net zero and sustain thousands of jobs. On the other hand, serial corrector of the record over energy stats and career politician Humza Yousaf said that Rosebank would slow the pace of the transition. Whose analysis should the people of Scotland give more weight to?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I will

be very clear. It is a stretch to suggest that fields of the size of Rosebank—primarily for oil production as they are and primarily for export, as that oil is—could possibly contribute to a just transition. [

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members, we need to hear the cabinet secretary’s response.

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

We in this Government have never advocated the switching off of the taps in the North Sea overnight; that would be the wrong thing to do for our workers and for the investment that is needed to drive the transition to net zero. However, investing in new oilfields such as Rosebank is not the answer either. We must invest in a managed and fair transition, putting people, industry and workers in the north-east first.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

The offshore training passport was due to be launched by the end of this month but, with just two days to go, we are hearing reports that progress has stalled. Does the minister believe that the passport will go live in the next two days? If not, why not?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

The development of the OPITO offshore passport is an exceptionally complex piece of work—the complexities of which Mercedes Villalba has consistently failed to recognise. Progress continues to be made. A review of standards mapping for the passport project is currently under way, with outputs to be considered by the project review group. For the record, that group is comprised of representatives from industry, trade body and trade unions. It will do that when it reconvenes later next month. We will have further clarity on delivery timescales for the passport when that very important part of the process has concluded.

Sheriffhall Roundabout (Objections)

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

6. To ask the Scottish Government whether it has received any recommendations from the independent reporter to consider any outstanding objections to the development of the A720 Sheriffhall roundabout in light of the public local inquiry, which took place at the beginning of February 2023. (S6O-02573)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The Scottish Government has not yet received any recommendations from the independent reporter regarding the A720 Sheriffhall roundabout following the public local inquiry held between 31 January and 8 February 2023.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I am disappointed to hear that. People across Edinburgh and the Lothians and the south of Scotland will really want to know when those recommendations will be given to ministers and how fast we can see this progress. We need the A720 Sheriffhall roundabout to be upgraded. It has now been five years since it was included in the Edinburgh and south-east Scotland city region deal.

Will the minister agree to meet me and campaigners at the junction at the earliest opportunity to see the real need for this to be progressed and the junction upgraded as soon as possible?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I reassure Miles Briggs that we remain committed to delivering the grade separation of

Sheriffhall roundabout as part of the commitment to the Edinburgh and south-east Scotland city region deal. As with all trunk road projects, a public local inquiry is the appropriate forum for the consideration of outstanding objections. As Miles Briggs is aware, there were a considerable number of objections. I am sure that he would respect the time that the independent reporter has to take to consider them.

In response to his invitation, it would be appropriate to first see the report and then take the opportunity, as appropriate, following its publication.

A82 (Improvements Appraisal)

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

7. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will carry out a Scottish transport appraisal guidance appraisal of the proposed improvements to the A82 between Tarbet and Inverarnan. (S6O-02574)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I advise that, following Audit Scotland’s investigation in November 2022, it confirmed that a STAG-compliant assessment has already been completed in line with appropriate guidance. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to carry out a reappraisal of the preferred improvement option, as that would unnecessarily repeat completed work, resulting in considerable delay and additional cost that would not provide any value to the Scottish taxpayer.

I can confirm that the Scottish Government remains committed to improving the A82 between Tarbet and Inverarnan and will continue to push forward with the necessary detailed design and assessment work.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

An approximation of a STAG appraisal is not a full STAG appraisal, which is yet to be carried out. There has been little consultation with key local groups, and it is also not appropriate to treat this as a standard road-widening exercise, given

the sensitivity of the unique qualities of the landscape in Scotland’s first national park. There is an alternative inland proposal that has not been properly considered. Given that a full STAG appraisal has not taken place, will the minister commit to giving it a full appraisal and looking at the alternative solution, so that we can get the best possible upgrade to the A82 between Tarbet and Inverarnan?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I appreciate the concerns that were raised and that people have different views. It is probably problematic for Jackie Baillie to disagree with Audit Scotland’s recognition—i

ts investigation in November 2022 confirmed that a STAG-compliant assessment had been done.

In the question session, we have already heard how important the A82 is, particularly for access to the West Highlands. When I was in Fort William, as well as the local issues that were raised about the A82, people raised the improvements that were needed at Tarbert and Inverarnan. We take the matter seriously, but we recognise that it is important that we get value for the public purse and that we should not repeat work. As I have outlined, it is important that progress takes place.

A96 (Safety Improvement Works)

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what road safety improvement works have been planned for the A96 near Huntly. (S6O-02575)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Transport Scotland’s operating company Amey is undertaking road safety improvements at the A920 staggered junction on the A96. The resurfacing of the junction was completed in September 2023, which included the installation of LED solar powered road studs to improve the visibility of the junction for approaching drivers. Road signs and vehicle restraint systems will shortly be improved, with the provision of two electronic signs to warn drivers when vehicles are turning at the junction. That work is programmed for completion by October 2023.

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

Any action is better than nothing. However, implementing a few signs and repainting the road seems to be doing the work on the cheap. The A96 is the north-east’s most dangerous road, with nearly 300 collisions over the past seven years. Just a fortnight ago, another two people were hospitalised after an accident near Huntly. A local petition to install a roundabout to replace the junctions has received more than 850 signatures. Can the minister confirm what it will take for the Scottish National Party Government to take action and commit to upgrading this dangerous road in full?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The First Minister set out our commitment to improvements in the programme for government. I would not diminish improvements as they are taking place—it is important that members support improvements in their local areas. As Alexander Burnett well knows, there is an on-going review into the A96, as was outlined by the First Minister at First Minister’s questions today. We

will take our commitment forward with the publication of the review.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio questions on transport, net zero and just transition. There will be a brief pause before the next item of business, to allow members on the front benches to change.

Scotland’s Future Energy System

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a statement by Gillian Martin on the vision for Scotland’s future energy system.

The minister will take questions at the end of her statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I will update the Parliament on the steps that we are taking to set out our vision for the future net zero energy system. Earlier this year, we consulted on the draft energy strategy and just transition plan. Today, we are publishing the responses to the consultation on the draft, along with the independent analysis report that was commissioned to examine the responses that were received.

That report confirms that there is broad support for our net zero vision and highlights the importance of providing policy certainty to enable the required investment in skills, infrastructure and technologies. The analysis report also shows the need to reach net zero in a way that fairly spreads the benefits and costs of decarbonisation across society. That is why our commitment to a just transition is so important. We are making funding of almost £5 billion available over the course of this parliamentary session in net zero energy transformation, including £1.8 billion to accelerate heat decarbonisation, with at least £465 million to support those who are least able to pay for the transition.

We are already making excellent progress in transforming our energy sector. Last week, I was delighted to launch the onshore wind sector deal, which is a great example of a shared commitment between Government and industry that will bring forward investment in skills and the supply chain. The sector deal is a key part of the Bute house agreement, and over the past two years the parties of Government have been working together to grow the renewables sector and to create economic opportunity and green jobs across Scotland.

There is still work to be done, however. Although we were pleased with the result for onshore wind in Scotland in the recent contracts for difference auction, the absence of offshore wind signals that the United Kingdom Government has failed to recognise the current market challenges that that sector faces. We urge the UK Government to address that disastrous outcome in time for the next allocation round.

As we have set out in the draft energy strategy and just transition plan, we believe that any new extraction of fossil fuels must be subject to strict climate compatibility tests. Our focus must be on meeting our energy security needs, reducing emissions and delivering affordable energy supplies, while ensuring a just transition for our oil and gas workforce as North Sea resources decline. To achieve that, we need to harness the skills, talent and experience located in the north-east to support the build-out of net zero technologies in Scotland. We are already acting, for example, through our 10-year £500 million just transition fund, but the UK Government needs to play its part to enable that transition.

The electricity network will be critical to delivering the ambitions that are set out in the draft energy strategy and just transition plan. High levels of investment in electricity transmission infrastructure in Scotland and in the wider Great Britain electricity grid are required to ensure that clean and affordable renewable electricity is available where it is needed.

A significant amount of renewable generation in Scotland is currently constrained as there is not enough space on the electricity network to transport the power. Annual constraint costs across GB could reach up to £3 billion by the late 2020s. Those costs are paid for, in large part, by consumers across GB. Many of the network projects that are currently proposed in Scotland are aimed at lowering those constraint costs, as the cost of the infrastructure will be less than the potential costs of constraints.

Although network build is vital, it must be delivered with lasting benefits for our economy and for the people of Scotland. Scotland’s natural endowment makes it an extremely attractive place to site renewable generation. We must translate that huge potential into sustainable jobs, community benefit, skills and local economic development. Investment in networks will play a crucial role in creating long-term high-quality green jobs that will attract and retain talent in communities across Scotland.

I am aware that communities in areas that may be impacted by proposed electricity network developments might have concerns about network infrastructure. As established in national planning framework 4, which was approved by the Scottish Parliament earlier this year, the views of local communities are of the utmost importance. It is vital that everyone has the opportunity to engage in decisions about future development. That engagement must happen as early as possible and should be effective, collaborative and meaningful.

NPF4 also ensures that appropriate checks and balances are in place, and that potential impacts on our environment and our natural heritage are fully assessed. I can assure Parliament that potential impacts on communities, nature, landscape and other valued natural assets are very important considerations when determining applications for consent.

Despite the fact that the powers to mandate community benefits from renewable energy and grid infrastructure developments are reserved to the UK Government, we are continuing to work with communities and a wide range of energy businesses to maximise community benefit from existing and new developments. Some developers are already leading the way, and, as part of the onshore wind sector deal, developers have committed to meet or exceed the national benchmark that is set out in the “Scottish Government Good Practice Principles for Community Benefits from Onshore Renewable Energy Developments” document.

I want network companies to take similar steps, and I have strongly encouraged the network companies to bring forward tangible benefits to communities where infrastructure is proposed. That includes measures that can have a positive impact on household fuel costs. I have urged the network companies to be creative in those solutions, and to work closely with communities to tailor them. I welcome recent initiatives in that vein, and hope to see yet more innovation and good community engagement on how community benefit can be best deployed in a way that meets the needs of communities.

We remain committed to a net zero future, and we will use every power at our disposal to support sustainable economic growth and maximise the opportunities of the green economy. That includes ensuring that the electricity network infrastructure comes with economic and social benefits for Scotland.

By publishing the analysis report on the draft energy strategy and just transition plan today, we are demonstrating the open and transparent approach that is central to a just transition. As set out in the programme for government, we will continue to engage with a range of stakeholders across Scotland, including the just transition commission and the Scottish energy advisory board, as we work towards the final publication by summer 2024.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I thank the minister for the advance sight of the statement, which rightly highlights the need for a transition—but not much else.

A recent report by the Robert Gordon University states that retaining the offshore oil and gas supply chain, its workforce and associated skills over the next five years will be crucial to the UK’s successful transition to renewable energies. That is because there is limited capacity for the UK offshore renewables sector to take on board the

“skilled oil and gas workers impacted by the predicted decline in the hydrocarbon sector until later this decade.”

The approval of Rosebank will help to manage that decline until more green jobs into which the workforce can transition are available. If we apply the brakes too quickly, the workforce will be lost and we will not have the people or skills to make the transition. The First Minister has condemned the approval of Rosebank. He wants to turn his back on £8 billion of investment and more than 1,000 jobs in his latest betrayal of the north-east. Does the minister support the First Minister’s position? Would she, too, like to see the back of thousands of jobs, many of which are in her constituency?

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I refute some of the language that Douglas Lumsden used in his question. No one is suggesting that any brakes be put on oil and gas. I am hugely supportive of our world-class oil and gas industry, and I agree that we should harness the substantial skills of the workers in that industry to take us to a net zero energy future.

I am concentrating my efforts on ensuring that oil and gas workers can see a sustainable future that takes us well beyond North Sea oil and gas. When a Government does not have plans for a long-term, sustainable future, what happens—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, please resume your seat. I do not need constant questioning from a sedentary position. Douglas Lumsden posed his questions, and the minister is responding. Let us hear the minister, please.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I very much appreciate that, Deputy Presiding Officer.

When a Government does not have plans for a long-term sustainable future, what happens is that the next generation has no job prospects, communities are hollowed out, there is a huge negative impact on the physical and mental health of those communities, and generational poverty becomes endemic. I know that because that is what Mr Lumsden’s party’s lack of a just transition and short-term ideological thinking did to the communities of Clydeside, Lanarkshire, Fife, Ayrshire, Tyneside, Liverpool, Yorkshire, south Wales and more.

Yes, there will be jobs associated with Rosebank. As a north-easter, I recognise that. However, my job as energy minister for Scotland is to ensure that there is life and there are jobs in the energy industry beyond the North Sea as it declines. The future is in an energy mix, and everything that the Tory-led UK Government does signals that it is neglecting to nurture the economic opportunities for the north-east and beyond that will rise from that.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

I thank the minister for the advance sight of her statement. However, it tells us nothing about how the Scottish Government’s targets will be delivered.

The minister mentioned household fuel costs and that she hoped to see more innovation and community benefit. However, hope does not deliver. We need a route map to deliver now.

How many homes will be retrofitted this year and by the end of the parliamentary session? How many new jobs will be created across Scotland? Given the £40 million cut in university and college funding, how will the new training be delivered in our communities? Why has funding for households to access solar power been ended? What new funding will the Scottish Government provide to councils and communities so that they can deliver the engagement and the community and co-operative owned heat and renewables networks that will deliver investment to our communities and—crucially—tackle the fuel poverty that 38 per cent of our households now face?

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I disagree that the statement that I just gave says nothing on those issues. I mentioned a significant development that will tackle quite a lot of that.

Sarah Boyack put quite a lot of questions to me. I point to the onshore wind strategic leadership group, which was vital in taking forward the policy aspirations for, and the development of, the onshore wind sector deal, which was published and signed last week. That deal will create pathways for long-term sustainable energy jobs and has commitments on skills provision, community benefits and helping to tackle fuel poverty across Scotland. There are many more such initiatives whereby the Government is working with industry to deliver on all the aims that will help us to get to net zero.

I also point to the impact that the new agency—heat and energy efficiency Scotland—will have: it will help householders with their fuel bills, deliver energy efficiency measures in homes and buildings and develop heat networks, as so many of our Nordic neighbours have. We will build on the initial work that has been done to make that a reality for a lot of households across Scotland.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We move to back benchers’ questions. We need to speed things up a bit, so I ask for succinct questions from members and succinct answers from the minister, please.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

In her statement, the minister said:

“we believe that any new extraction of fossil fuels must be subject to strict climate compatibility tests.”

Did the UK Government apply such tests when it approved the development of Rosebank?

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

Mr Mason asks a question that he might have heard me ask yesterday in some of the media interviews that I did. I have no analysis from the UK Government of the climate and energy security conditions that applicants had to meet. If I had that, I would be very interested to see exactly what the conditions were. I would also be interested in seeing what details the developers provided. I would be happy to engage with the developers—I have spoken to them in the past—on what they might do above and beyond the conditions.

Equinor and Ithaca Energy have the licence. I feel optimistic because they now have a job to do to prove to civic Scotland and the wider UK that they recognise some of the criticism that came out yesterday. It would be interesting to see what they will be doing to reduce their production emissions.

Everyone recognises that the majority of what will be extracted from Rosebank will go overseas. It is 82 per cent oil—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I really need to encourage more succinct comments.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I will leave it there.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you for your co-operation.

I appreciate that a number of points are always put, but we have several members to get through.