Scottish Parliament, 14 September 2023

332 contributions from 71 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning. The first item of business is general question time.

Inverclyde Task Force

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what funding it will provide to support the work of the Inverclyde task force, including in relation to investment in facilities at Ferguson Marine. (S6O-02512)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Ministers participate in the work of the Inverclyde task force to examine new ways of enabling a successful and sustainable wellbeing economy to thrive in the area.

The task force joint chairs have submitted a letter to the Minister for Small Business, Trade and Innovation, setting out a number of investment proposals, which will be given detailed consideration by the Scottish Government. Separately, a formal request for capital investment has been made by Ferguson Marine (Port Glasgow) and is currently undergoing due diligence. Ministers will update Parliament once that process is concluded, should further investment in Ferguson Marine be agreed.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

The GMB trade union, supported by parties from across the chamber, has made the Government aware of an impending deadline for placing an order for a new plating line at Ferguson’s. Workers and management are clear that the investment is essential to improving efficiency and securing a future for the yard. Failure to do that urgently will result in many more months of delay.

The Inverclyde task force was established because the former finance secretary believed that it could make the case for levering in funding to Inverclyde. Recent job losses make the need even greater. Will the Government commit today to investing in facilities at Ferguson’s and to providing additional cash to kick-start the Inverclyde economy? If it will not do that today, when will a decision be made?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Neil Bibby for that question and his interest in the area. This afternoon, I am due to meet union officials with Stuart McMillan, who has invited them to Parliament, in order to discuss those issues and others. Mr Bibby will be aware of the state aid and subsidy control issues that are at play with regard to this request, but we continue to scrutinise that and look to do everything we can to ensure that the yard is supported, within the powers and resources that we have. As he would expect, we will continue to engage with both management and trade unions.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

As co-chair of the Inverclyde task force, I want to be clear that the recent funding asks from the task force and the funding ask from a cross-party group of politicians regarding Ferguson Marine are two separate matters.

The task force has outlined several ambitious projects for Inverclyde. There is an extremely urgent and important need for investment in Ferguson Marine, so I ask the cabinet secretary to update members as quickly as possible after the due diligence process has been completed.

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Stuart McMillan for his consistent and diligent work for his constituents, with regard to both the task force and Ferguson Marine. I give him an undertaking that we will consider the issue of Ferguson Marine as quickly as possible and will update him and other colleagues as quickly as we can once the due diligence process has been completed.

As the Minister for Small Business, Trade and Innovation confirmed in his reply to the letter from Stuart McMillan and the leader of Inverclyde Council, the Scottish Government will scrutinise the proposals assembled by the task force and will continue to participate in its work, offering feedback on the proposals and working with United Kingdom Government colleagues who also have a stake in the matter.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

The Inverclyde task force has a wider remit to ensure that the region makes best use of all its maritime assets to achieve improved economic prosperity. To that end, is the cabinet secretary aware that local campaigners believe that its port facilities, including Inchgreen dry dock, are being vastly underutilised? Would he be willing to come to Greenock to meet those campaigners?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I would be more than happy to engage with the work that Jamie Greene speaks of to ensure that we see the maximum benefit of the port infrastructure in place in Inverclyde, around Greenock, and across Scotland, so that the benefits of the work that I believe that we will be able to enjoy going forward can be enjoyed by as many communities as possible.

Glasgow (Golden Z Regeneration)

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether the regeneration plans for Glasgow’s golden Z will deliver the jobs and opportunities needed to grow the city’s economy. (S6O-02513)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

The Scottish Government supports Glasgow City Council’s golden Z regeneration plans as they align fully with our commitment in the programme for government to drive regional growth and empowerment. The programme for government also acknowledges Glasgow’s pivotal role as a key economic driver in the region and for the rest of Scotland, and the plans will be crucial in fostering growth, generating employment opportunities, and enhancing prospects, not only for Glasgow but for the wider region.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

I also welcome the investment that has been secured to put Glasgow back on the map as the number 2 in the United Kingdom list of retail centres, a position that it has enjoyed for the past two decades. However, we are already losing shoppers because of the current state of Glasgow city centre. Significant concerns have been expressed about parts of Sauchiehall Street since the ABC went down in the Glasgow School of Art fire. Will the Scottish Government support my call for a robust economic impact assessment to ensure that there is a viable plan for the golden Z, with a delivery team in place? Without delivery, we will not see the result that we want.

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Pauline McNeill for her question and her work to engage with Glasgow City Council and the work that it is doing. I recognise the importance of getting this right and making sure that Glasgow city centre has an offering that is relevant to what people are looking for in city centre locations.

I understand that the golden Z regeneration plans are already based on extensive research and economic analysis and, although all investment involves an element of risk, I am sure that, once they have been implemented, the plans will have a significant impact on the city’s ability to attract and retain jobs. I am more than happy to furnish Pauline McNeill with more details in collaboration with colleagues in Glasgow City Council to make sure that we can realise the city centre’s potential.

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

Many shops and restaurants in Glasgow city centre have been forced to close in recent years. The British Retail Consortium recently found that footfall in Glasgow was down more than it is in 10 other large UK cities. Another report revealed that footfall was 19 per cent lower than it was pre-Covid. Does the minister recognise that the Scottish National Party council’s low-emission zone might be forcing people away from Glasgow city centre?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

No, I do not. The member helps to make the case for the need for the regeneration work. I also point her to the clear evidence from businesses that I have engaged with and those that return business surveys on areas of key concern for them. Those concerns are energy costs, the impact of Brexit on the labour market, the cost of living crisis and the impossible impact that inflationary interest rate rises are having on their trading environment. I therefore encourage the member to direct her focus to the UK Government to ensure that her questions are being answered.

Gas Safety

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

3. To ask the Scottish Government, in light of gas safety week taking place this week, what engagement it has had with community safety organisations regarding action to improve gas safety awareness. (S6O-02514)

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

We provide Scottish Government grant funding and work with our partner the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, which has supported and promoted gas safety week for many years.

RoSPA is active in the promotion of gas and carbon monoxide safety, and it represents the Scottish Government’s interests in the stakeholder forum of the all-party parliamentary carbon monoxide group. RoSPA is also working with a gas distribution network to develop a new web hub on carbon monoxide and it has just launched two surveys to assess people’s awareness of the prevention of carbon monoxide poisoning.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

We know that unchecked gas appliances run the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning or explosion, so it is crucial that appliances are checked regularly by Gas Safe Register engineers. What action is the Scottish Government taking to encourage people to arrange their annual gas safety check? What help might be available to those who find themselves in fuel poverty and unable to do that?

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

Duties relating to the maintenance of appliances that are applicable to landlords are set out in United Kingdom legislation. Through our partners, RoSPA, we have promoted via social media and newsletters the Gas Safe Register’s advice to check gas appliances every year and to check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.

Going forward, RoSPA is developing two surveys aimed at private landlords and the general public respectively to assess their awareness of carbon monoxide poisoning and what they should do to prevent it. The web hub will be developed to address the shortfall of information covering safety and responsibility.

Investment Zones

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government when it agreed the investment zones selection method with the United Kingdom Government. (S6O-02515)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Scottish and UK Government officials developed a joint approach to place selection over the period from April to June, with regular updates being provided to ministers throughout that period. Scottish and UK ministers formally confirmed their agreement to the approach and selected the two regions on 22 June, and a formal note on the selection method was published on 18 August to fulfil a commitment that was made to Dundee City Council leader, John Alexander.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

I am afraid that the cabinet secretary needs to get the story straight. On 18 July, he told me, in an answer to a written question:

“The invitation to host an Investment Zone was not subject to a bidding or application process”.—[

Written Answers

, 20 July 2023; S6W-19604.]

Then, as he said, on 18 August, a document entitled “Investment Zones Place Selection in Scotland” appeared on the UK Government’s website. However, the decision to award the investment zones to Glasgow and Aberdeen featured on page 1 of the document. Does the cabinet secretary agree with his ministerial colleague Tom Arthur, who told the Finance and Public Administration Committee that having transparency on the application process was very important? In my view, it is very important indeed, given that Dundee now has neither a green freeport nor an investment zone. The investment zone process was nothing more than a political fix.

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Given that one of the investment zones that were chosen was in his region, I am sure that Michael Marra has no interest in pitting community against community, as he appeared to try to do in that question.

In response to a request from John Alexander, the Scottish and UK Governments have committed to engage on what further help might be available for Dundee and the Tay city region to ensure that we take full advantage of the economic opportunities that undoubtedly exist in those communities. I am committed to engaging on that, and I believe that UK Government colleagues are, too.

Restraint of Children (UNCRC Recommendation)

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking in response to the recommendation by the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child to

“develop statutory guidance on the use of restraint on children to ensure that it is used only as a measure of last resort and exclusively to prevent harm to the child or others and monitor its implementation”. (S6O-02516)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am aware of Mr Johnson’s long-standing interest in the subject, and I know that he will agree that all children and young people have the right to be treated with respect and to be safe, as do the staff who work with them. Any use of restraint must be carried out with regard to the welfare of the child. That is provided for in the guidance that is already in place in education, custody, mental health and care settings that is aimed at controlling and limiting the use of restraint.

As Mr Johnson will know, we consulted on draft guidance on physical intervention in schools, and I intend to publish revised guidance in due course. We are also exploring options to strengthen the legal framework in this area, including by placing the guidance on a statutory footing. I will be happy to discuss that with him when we meet next week.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

I thank the cabinet secretary for her very welcome remarks. She will be aware that I have a consultation open on a member’s bill on the subject. Does she agree that the UN committee’s comments, and the fact that Northern Ireland is now consulting on the issue, change the context? Does she also agree that we need to have robust reporting standards, as well as training standards for teachers, rather than just guidance, if we are to make progress in this area?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am aware of the consultation that Daniel Johnson is engaged in on a possible member’s bill on use of restraint and seclusion in schools. His point about the context changing in other parts of the UK, which are looking at what more they might be able to do, is valid. I look forward to considering in further detail his proposed member’s bill. I will meet Mr Johnson next week to discuss some of the detail.

Mr Johnson mentioned reporting standards and training standards, particularly in relation to teacher education. I am keen to discuss both those topics in more detail with him when we meet next week.

Business (Fraser of Allander Institute Survey)

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the Fraser of Allander survey that found that only 9 per cent of businesses felt that the Scottish Government understands the business landscape in Scotland. (S6O-02517)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

We are grateful to the Fraser of Allander Institute—which I met yesterday to discuss the survey and other issues to do with the Scottish economy—for carrying out its survey of 400 businesses. There is no doubt that the results are disappointing, which is why the new deal for business group’s role of building trust with business and driving meaningful, tangible change is important.

Although the indicators from the survey could help to track progress over time, a broader set of indicators should be developed to more fully measure progress and impact. Those could include broader impact indicators such as business confidence and business investment. That will be further considered by the new deal for business group.

The new deal for business group is just part of a process to ensure that, collaboratively, we create the conditions to support business, which in turn will drive fair green economic growth, with the purpose of feeding into strong and sustainable finances to tackle poverty and support our public services in communities.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The business community has clearly delivered a vote of no confidence in the Scottish National Party’s economic management. Will the cabinet secretary take decisive action to ensure that every minister in the Scottish Government is 100 per cent committed to the key objective of economic growth?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Yes. I have been doing work, on which the First Minister has been leading, across Government to ensure that we are responsive to business needs.

However, we must recognise that not all the levers of the economy are under the control of the Scottish Government. I know—I am sure that colleagues in the Conservative Party must know, unless they have been hiding behind a bush

all summer—that the main drivers of concern for people in business in Scotland are areas around the impact of Brexit on labour supply, the impact of high interest rates on their tradeable environment, and how to ensure that they can achieve economic growth. Further action is needed in all those areas from the United Kingdom Government, which has wrecked the economy with the disastrous Truss-Kwarteng budget.

Modern Studies (Attainment in Renfrewshire)

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is regarding levels of attainment in modern studies in the most recent Scottish Quality Authority exam results in Renfrewshire. (S6O-02518)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills and as a former modern studies teacher, I congratulate the ambition, hard work and resilience of the young people in Renfrewshire who achieved a strong set of results in modern studies.

In 2023, pass rates in Renfrewshire for modern studies were above the national average at national 5, and at higher level were the same as the national average. The achievements of those young people should be celebrated.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

I am glad to hear the cabinet secretary’s answer; she knows how important modern studies is in teaching good citizenship and respectful debate. Young people and their teachers across Renfrewshire work extremely hard to achieve their results in the subject.

What would the cabinet secretary say to a colleague who was encouraging the denigration of young people’s exam results in order to attack a political opponent? Will she join me in condemning the actions of her colleagues in local Scottish National Party branches, council groups and even the Scottish Parliament who seem to believe that the life chances of pupils at Park Mains high school, which is an excellent school in my region, are fair game in desperate political attacks?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

We could all learn to be a little more circumspect and thoughtful in our use of social media. In particular, how and what adults say and do impacts on our children and young people. I understand that the tweets that Paul O’Kane alludes to have since been deleted, and that the member apologised at the time.

I am intrigued by the care that Paul O’Kane appears to attach to one tweet from an SNP back bencher. The Scottish Labour Party has, of course, attached no such care to the 1,620 children in Rutherglen and Hamilton West who have been affected by the two-child benefit cap under the Tories’ heinous rape clause, which is harming children and their outcomes the length and breadth of the country. Instead of coming to the chamber today with a backbone, Paul O’Kane comes to bemoan a tweet on social media.

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

Schools work hard to deliver diverse academic and vocational journeys for students. For example, Bearsden academy in my constituency achieved a gold ambassador award for its work to promote academic and vocational career pathways equally. What is the Scottish Government doing to support schools in the delivery of those routes?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Marie McNair raises an important point. This year, a record number of vocational and technical qualifications have been achieved. The breadth of pathways is hugely important in relation to the qualifications that are on offer to our young people. She mentions Bearsden academy in her constituency; I would be more than happy to visit the school with her to hear more about the work that is being undertaken there.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes general question time. Before we move on to First Minister’s question time, I invite members to join me in welcoming to the gallery Abby Taylor, Presiding Officer of the Tobago House of Assembly. [

Applause

.]

I also

invite members to join me in welcoming His Excellency Dr Róbert Ondrejcsák, Ambassador of Slovakia

to the United Kingdom. [

Applause

.]

Police Scotland Budget (Body-Worn Cameras)

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. I remind the chamber that my wife is a serving police officer with Police Scotland.

Body-worn cameras are vital for police officer safety and to increase public trust. The Scottish National Party has left Police Scotland as the last force in the United Kingdom to roll out body-worn cameras. Yesterday, Police Scotland said that it could not

“guarantee that body-worn cameras ... would be rolled out next year.”

Humza Yousaf did not deliver them when he was justice secretary. As First Minister, will he let police officers down again?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

First and foremost, we have increased the budget for Police Scotland. I am pleased that, after last week, Douglas Ross seems to have accepted the point that the Scottish Government has increased the budget for Police Scotland by 6.3 per cent, which is an additional £80 million. I quote directly from Deputy Chief Officer David Page, who said that Police Scotland’s current plans are actually that it

“will continue to roll out ... national body-worn video cameras, as outlined in previous plans.”

When I was justice secretary, I ensured that we had the capital budget so that the roll-out could begin. I am pleased to say that the facts remain that not only has the Scottish Government increased the budget for Police Scotland but, much like Deputy Chief Officer David Page said yesterday, the plans are to roll out national body-worn video cameras for our police officers, who are the ones who should be credited for the fact that we have seen one of the lowest crime rates in Scotland for almost 50 years.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The evidence was clear that those cameras will not be fully rolled out. Humza Yousaf said in his programme for government last week that they were a priority, but Police Scotland has said that it “cannot guarantee” their roll-out because there is a £300 million black hole in the capital budget.

The First Minister likes to quote from Police Scotland, so I quote a submission that it put to Parliament’s Criminal Justice Committee for yesterday’s session, which states that its

“current capital allocation is among the lowest in UK policing ... This is significantly short of the funding required to improve conditions and equipment for the wellbeing of officers and staff.”

If this really is a priority for Humza Yousaf, will he now treat it like one?

The First Minister

Let us deal with the facts. The fact is that the UK Government has cut our capital budget by more than 6.5 per cent. Here are some more facts for Douglas Ross: the Scottish Government has increased Police Scotland’s budget by £80 million this year—fact. We have more police officers per head in Scotland than in England—fact. R

ecorded crime is at one of its lowest levels in Scotland in almost 50 years—fact. In fact, recorded crime has fallen by 42 per cent since the SNP came into power—that is a fact. [

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Members.

The First Minister

When it comes to looking at whether Scotland is safer under the SNP, there is no denying that it is undoubtedly safer under the SNP Government—that is a fact.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Budgets are so stretched that the police say that officer redundancies are now on the table.

Let us look at the facts that the First Minister wants to reiterate. There is a £300 million black hole in Police Scotland’s capital budget—fact. Officer numbers in Scotland are at their lowest level in 14 years—fact. Officer numbers started to slip when he was justice secretary and they are in free fall now that he is First Minister. Without further funding, Police Scotland warned yesterday that

“2,000 police officers could be let go in the next five years and 600 could be off our streets by April next year”.

Why is the Government even considering those cuts, which will stretch policing in Scotland to breaking point?

The First Minister

I remind Douglas Ross once again that, this year, Police Scotland has had a significant increase to its budget, which we are providing in the face of a UK Government that has cut our capital budget—[

Interruption

.].

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

Let us look at how we are spending that money. Not only are we ensuring that we have more police officers on the beat per head than there are England but we have just concluded a deal with our police officers for a generous and fair pay increase to them. That means that the minimum and maximum salaries are now higher for police officers in all ranks in Scotland compared with their counterparts in England and Wales.

When it comes to the budget, we will of course negotiate and engage with all political parties right across the chamber. What Douglas Ross cannot do is demand that more money be spent and, at the same time, demand that we cut taxes. That is simply not a credible position.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The First Minister is getting angry again. Either a civil

servant has not put this statistic in his briefing pack or he is not reading it. Police officer numbers in Scotland under the SNP are now at their lowest level in 14 years. I say to the First Minister that that is a fact, and that is what we are facing on the streets of Scotland right now.

Police Scotland will be the last force in the UK to roll out body-worn cameras. Officers no longer have the resources to investigate every crime. Their workplaces are not fit for purpose, and now the number of officers could be cut by 2,000. The thin blue line is barely visible at this rate. Does the First Minister accept that, with falling officer numbers, communities in Scotland will feel less safe?

The First Minister

I do not accept that in the slightest. Around 1,280 new recruits have joined Police Scotland in the past 18 months.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The lowest level in 14 years.

The Presiding Officer

Mr Ross.

The First Minister

There are over 350 more police officers than when we took office in 2007.

When it comes to real-terms increases in Police Scotland’s budget, that is a fair-enough call for any political party to make, and we will of course give that consideration when it comes to the budget. However, has Douglas Ross ever asked himself why a real-terms increase was difficult this year? Of course, it was difficult because inflation is sky high, and inflation is sky high because of his party’s complete economic mismanagement of the public finances. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members.

The First Minister

When it comes to real-terms increases, of course we will give that consideration, but it was Douglas Ross, a year ago, who stood here and demanded that the Scottish Government copy Liz Truss’s disastrous mini-budget. If we had done that, we would not have money to spend on our police service or indeed any of our public services. Thank goodness that Douglas Ross is nowhere near the public finances of Scotland.

National Health Service Waiting Lists

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. Last year, the then health secretary promised that no one would be waiting more than 18 months for a national health service procedure by September 2023, but the most recent figures show that there are still 17,200 people on an NHS waiting list who have already waited over 18 months for hospital procedures. That is yet another broken promise from a health secretary who has failed upwards. The result is people turning to private care. Figures that are out this week show that 40 per cent of all knee and hip replacements that are being carried out in Scotland are being self-funded by patients. Why does Humza Yousaf think that it is acceptable that almost 5,000 patients last year were forced to cover the costs of their hip or knee replacements because of his failures?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

First of all, Anas Sarwar has every right, of course, to ask about the waiting times that our NHS is experiencing, but I say to him that, every time he asks the question, he fails to mention the biggest shock that our NHS has faced in its 75-year existence. Health services right across the United Kingdom, including in Scotland, are of course ensuring that we recover.

When it comes to the longest waits, again just to inject some facts into this exchange, I note that the number waiting over two years for a new out-patient appointment is down 59 per cent in Scotland, the number waiting over 18 months has reduced by 40.6 per cent and 34 per cent of specialties have fewer than 10 patients waiting over 52 weeks.

There is progress and there is recovery. Of course that recovery is going to take time, and what helps with it is making sure that we have NHS staffing near record levels, as it is under this Government, but also making sure that we do not lose a single day in the NHS to industrial action. I am pleased that this Scottish Government has ensured that our NHS staff remain the best paid in the entire UK.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Surely the First Minister knew about Covid when he made the promise, last year, that the waits that I mentioned would be eradicated by this time this year. The First Minister may not like it, but this is happening on his watch. In the past financial year alone, 43,000 patients were treated privately in Scotland, which is an 8 per cent increase over the previous year. A total of 4,739 hip and knee replacements were paid for privately by patients, as were 7,805 cataract surgeries, 1,980 colonoscopies, 2,055 endoscopies, 995 hernia repairs and, most shockingly of all, 1,745 rounds of chemotherapy. Healthcare free at the point of need is a founding principle of our NHS. How can the Scottish National Party have let things get so bad that patients have to find cash to pay for life-saving cancer treatment?

The First Minister

Of course

we do not want people to have to fund care out of their own pockets. We know the impact that the pandemic has had on our health service, including on those waiting lists. However, I go back to the point that Anas Sarwar made: this is being seen in health systems right across the globe, let alone across the United Kingdom, as well as happening here in Scotland.

The figures from the Private Healthcare Information Network over the first quarter of 2023 show worrying trends, of course, in relation to those who access private healthcare, but they also show that Scotland has a lower rate of take-up of private healthcare compared with England and Wales. The rate of people who are self-funding for private in-patient day care is 16 per cent higher in England. In Wales—where the Labour Party is in charge—it is 51 per cent higher. That will be cold comfort for people who have to dig deep into their own pockets to pay for healthcare, but it is not unique to Scotland.

We will continue to see that recovery, to reduce waiting lists and to make sure that our NHS staff are the best paid in the UK, so that they continue to provide what is an excellent service to patients up and down Scotland.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The number of people who go private each year is going up, and the First Minister’s answers will be no comfort to the 43,000 patients who are being forced to pay privately. One person I spoke to in Cambuslang just a few weeks ago paid £15,000 for a hip replacement because the wait was three years. That is completely and utterly unacceptable.

In the middle of a cost of living crisis, when people are struggling to pay the bills, they should not also have to worry about the cost of getting sick. However, on the SNP’s watch, 43,000 Scots are being forced to find £15,000 for a hip or knee replacement, £3,000 for cataract surgery, £3,000 for a colonoscopy or £4,000 for a hernia repair—and even cancer patients are being forced to find thousands of pounds for their chemotherapy. Those are patients in pain and heartbroken families who are trying to scrape together the cash. Some are even forced to remortgage their homes to pay for the care that they should be getting on the NHS. Why are more and more Scots being forced to pay the price for SNP incompetence and failure?

The First Minister

We are seeing the impacts of the global pandemic, which has impacted on every single health service, including the health service here in Scotland. If Anas Sarwar wants evidence of the recovery, there is more and more activity in the NHS. In quarter 2, in-patient day care activity was at its highest since the start of the pandemic. That is not the first, nor the second, but the sixth quarterly increase in a row, with 58,813 patients being seen in Q2. More and more in-patients and day care patients are being seen.

I am pleased that Anas Sarwar mentioned the cost of living crisis, because we are taking action to tackle that. Because of our action, it is estimated that 90,000 fewer children will be in absolute or relative poverty. That is in stark contrast to Anas Sarwar’s summer of U-turns, in which he has aligned himself with cruel Tory policy after cruel Tory policy. We are unashamedly anti-poverty and unashamedly pro-growth. Anas Sarwar is unashamedly only pro-Starmer.

Paris Climate Agreement (UN Global Stocktake Report)

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking in response to the first United Nations global stocktake report on the Paris climate agreement. (S6F-02368)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

There is simply no denying that the conclusions of the global stocktake report are deeply concerning and that all countries, including Scotland, must seek to do more. The report found that nothing less than radical decarbonisation and systemic transformation will do.

Scotland will, of course, play her part. Internationally, we will continue to urge greater ambition and action towards a just transition to net zero through our co-chairmanship of the Under2 Coalition. I will highlight the issue as a matter of urgency while at New York climate week, and we, of course, look forward to the 28th UN climate change conference of the parties—COP28. Clear decisions on fossil fuels, renewable energy and climate finance must be progressed with urgency.

At home, Scotland has made progress on our net zero journey, although we know that more has to be done. We will continue to work with communities, businesses and international partners towards a net zero future.

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

As the First Minister said, Scotland has a deserved international reputation as a leader on climate action, but our domestic record needs to match up to that reputation. With Scottish Green policies such as removing peak-time rail fares, which will be introduced a few weeks from now, we are taking action to reduce emissions.

The First Minister said that he is about to join other world leaders at climate week and then at COP. What new actions is he bringing to the table to demonstrate Scotland’s commitment to tackling this global emergency?

The First Minister

Ross Greer is absolutely right that it is incumbent on Governments right across the world to ensure that they bring urgency, pace and initiative to tackling the climate emergency. Scotland has already had a big impact on the global stage, particularly through our pioneering commitment to addressing loss and damage. I am determined to keep building on that.

On new initiatives, that is why my programme for government committed to serious climate action: cheaper public transport through free bus travel, trialling the scrapping of peak rail fares on ScotRail—as Ross Greer mentioned—investing almost £5 billion in the net zero energy economy, a new climate change adaptation programme, the heat in buildings bill and the natural environment bill. On top of that, there is much more that we will continue to build on as we develop our new climate plan.

I look forward to hosting all party leaders so that we can get some consensus on the urgency that is required to tackle the climate emergency.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

The Scottish Government has consistently failed to live up to our climate targets, which is bad news for the 38 per cent of households living in fuel poverty whose energy bills have increased. What does the First Minister say to the millions of people across the world, and here in Edinburgh, who will be campaigning on the streets this weekend to demand a just transition, given that his Government has flip-flopped on oil and gas—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the member.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

—and failed to deliver—[

Interruption

.]

I am referring to the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee meeting this week.

The Presiding Officer

Members!

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

What does he say, given that the Government has failed to deliver the retrofitting of the homes of people who are living in fuel poverty?

The First Minister

Sarah Boyack would have more credibility on the issue if her party had not U-turned on its support for low-emission zones or, indeed, dumped its £28 billion green prosperity fund. That is the very point here. Time and again, the Scottish Government does not just talk the talk; it is prepared to walk the walk. We will take serious action to tackle the climate emergency, but it would really help if those parties that demand that we meet our targets do not then oppose every single measure that we bring to the chamber.

If Sarah Boyack and the Labour Party are serious about tackling the climate emergency, they should join us, support us and bring forward ideas that will help us to collectively tackle it. Do not simply dump the policies that you had and oppose the policies that we bring forward; support us, because collective action is needed to tackle the climate emergency.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

Will the First Minister update the chamber on when we should expect to see the published update to the climate change plan?

The First Minister

The end of this year.

Offshore Wind

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

4. To ask the First Minister, in light of reports that no bids were received for offshore wind projects in the United Kingdom Government’s latest contract for difference round, what action the Scottish Government is taking to encourage investment in offshore wind and hydrogen power in Scotland. (S6F-02358)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Jackie Dunbar exposes the UK Government’s complete failure to capture one of the greatest opportunities for Scotland’s net zero economy. Its inexplicable stance is anti-climate and anti-growth. Industry has sent the UK Government a clear signal that the strike price must increase, and we back those calls 100 per cent.

To ensure that we seize that opportunity, the Scottish Government supports the strategic investment model with public and private sector partners that is specifically aimed at enabling a move from project-led investment to sector-level investment. Later this year, we will launch the next tranche of hydrogen funding, in the form of the green hydrogen fund. That flagship fund will focus on supporting renewable hydrogen production from Scotland’s abundant renewable energy resources, thereby seeking to give us first-mover advantage.

I hope that the UK Government will listen to the calls of UK industry and that we will have a successful future round.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

A new report from Aberdeen’s Robert Gordon University, published just this week, further reinforces that we cannot afford to get this wrong. We must see investment in renewable technologies gather pace.

The Scottish National Party Scottish Government has shown its ambition by committing £500 million to a just transition fund, but that has to be matched by Westminster. Will the First Minister provide his response to the new report and an update on discussions with the UK Government on its matching the Scottish Government’s just transition fund?

The First Minister

I welcome the report from Robert Gordon University. Jackie Dunbar is absolutely right. Successive UK Governments have taken billions and billions from our north-east and have not been prepared to put a fraction back in. The very least that the UK Government should do is match our £500 million just transition fund.

The latest auction round represents an abject failure to capitalise on Scotland’s vast renewables potential.

I say to the UK Government that that not only harms our economy but seriously harms our planet. Over the summer, we have seen the disastrous visual impacts of the climate emergency. This is a time for climate leadership, but what we are getting from the UK Government is complete political abdication.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The fact that no bids were received should be a wake-up call for the Scottish Government.

Offshore wind should be part of an energy mix; instead, the Scottish Government is putting all its eggs in one basket, and one that is considerably more expensive than it had predicted. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the member.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Will the First Minister look again at having a more balanced energy mix that includes nuclear energy?

The First Minister

The member rightly looks embarrassed—as he should be.

To suggest that the Scottish Government is somehow responsible for the failure of the contract for difference auction, which the UK Government controls, is a seriously desperate response from the member. [

Interruption

.] If he does not want to listen to me, he should listen to the likes of Keith Anderson, who has said:

“This is a multi-billion pound lost opportunity to deliver low-cost energy for consumers and a wake-up call for Government.”

Let us also listen to what Dan McGrail, the chief executive officer of RenewableUK, has said:

“These results should set alarm bells ringing in Government, as the UK’s energy security and net zero goals can only be met if we have offshore wind as the backbone of our future energy system.”

I agree with Dan McGrail and Keith Anderson. If the Conservatives had any influence in that regard, they would ensure that the UK Government listened to the industry, as opposed to listening to those who back fossil fuels alone.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Offshore wind is a sustainable source of energy and a key part of the Scottish Government’s plans to reach its net zero targets. However, its first round of leasing sold our natural environment short, with a capped price per square kilometre. Will the Scottish Government ensure that any future leasing rounds are not undersold, in order to get the maximum amount possible to reinvest in public services?

The First Minister

Scotland has had the first devolved leasing round for offshore wind, which was for development in Scottish waters. It is the first leasing round in Scotland in a decade and will make a significant contribution to our public finances—not only the £750 million in revenue that it will bring to the public purse but the billions of pounds that it will create in opportunities for the supply chain. The cabinet secretary and I will be more than happy to speak to the member about what more we can do to improve future leasing rounds.

The point is that the Scottish Government believes in the vast potential of our renewables industry, in the face of a United Kingdom Government that has turned its back on Scotland’s renewables potential. I hope that Beatrice Wishart and members of all political parties will join the SNP-led Scottish Government in putting pressure on the UK Government to do more to unlock Scotland’s huge renewables potential.

Social Security Scotland (Complaints)

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to statistics reportedly showing that the number of complaints against Social Security Scotland has increased by 350 per cent in one year. (S6F-02371)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Social Security Scotland has introduced 13 Scottish Government benefits, seven of which are available only in Scotland, thanks to a total investment of £12 billion to support people who need assistance. In 2022-23, the agency received almost 370,000 applications, along with hundreds of thousands of phone calls and web chats.

Social security is a fundamental human right, which is why we have established a radically different benefit system that is built on dignity, fairness and respect. Our system vigorously promotes benefit take-up to ensure that as many people as possible get what they are entitled to, while, of course, mitigating the austerity impact of United Kingdom Government policies, within our fixed budgets.

In 2022-23, there were a total of 1,790 complaints, so complaint numbers remain low. In fact, in relation to total applications, that figure is less than 0.5 per cent.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I am sure that the First Minister must agree, though, that the situation is not acceptable. MSPs across the chamber will be aware of increasing costs being experienced by our constituents and of a rise in complaints. SNP ministers have said that all is well, but we are seeing increased processing times, delays in benefit roll-out and the possibility of the full devolution of all benefits not happening until 2026. Therefore, my question to the First Minister is: when does he expect all benefits to be devolved to Social Security Scotland?

The First Minister

I am more than happy to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to write in detail to Miles Briggs not only on the specific question that he has asked but on the significant improvements that we are making in relation to application processing times.

Social Security Scotland is a success story. Because of the existence of the agency and the actions that we have taken in relation to social security and taxation, an estimated 90,000 children will be lifted out of absolute and relative poverty this year. Poverty levels in Scotland are still too high, but, while we have seen rises in poverty across the UK, the situation in Scotland has stabilised—of course, we want to make sure that those levels reduce.

The final thing that I would say to Miles Briggs relates to the agency’s satisfaction levels—we will furnish him with details of those. Of those who interact with Social Security Scotland, 81 per cent, which is more than eight out of 10, agreed that it was easy to contact Social Security Scotland, and 94 per cent, which is more than nine out of 10, agreed that Social Security Scotland staff treated them with kindness. I suspect that that is in stark contrast to the situation with regard to the Department for Work and Pensions.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Can the First Minister confirm that user survey results demonstrate that Scotland’s social security system is adhering to the founding principles of dignity, fairness and respect, which demonstrates that people are benefiting from the powers over social security being in the hands of this Parliament?

The First Minister

Collette Stevenson is absolutely right. The survey shows just that. In fact, again, with regard to satisfaction levels, 89 per cent of respondents—almost nine out of 10 people—said that Social Security Scotland staff were able to help them, and the same number said that Social Security Scotland staff are knowledgeable about benefits.

As I have already said, through the actions that this Government has taken and the hard work of the excellent team of Social Security Scotland, we have seen significant results when it comes to tackling poverty, and child poverty in particular. That would have been impossible if not for the hard work of the excellent staff at Social Security Scotland and, of course, the ethos that we have had from the very beginning around dignity, fairness and respect.

Repeat Offending

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

6. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government is doing to tackle repeat offending, in light of a recent report that found that people who experience frequent and serious repeat violence often do not bring this to the attention of the authorities. (S6F-02369)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The Scottish Government commissioned the report that the member refers to precisely because we knew that victims of repeat violence often do not report their experiences, and it is important for us to understand the reasons why they do not and how we can help them to access that support.

Although there are fewer crimes and fewer victims than there were more than a decade ago, the impact on victims, particularly of sexual and violent crime, can be absolutely devastating. That is why we are investing in law enforcement, crime prevention and the reduction of offending and reoffending through a range of activity, including our violence prevention framework. We are also putting victims of crime at the heart of our justice system through our Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill, and we have invested £93 million over the past five years to support victims.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

I welcome the report by the Scottish Government, which seeks to better understand repeat violent victimisation. It found that men who experience repeat physical violence in Scotland live in deprived areas, have experienced homelessness or live in supported accommodation and are in recovery from addiction, whereas intimate partner abuse was highest among women aged 16 to 24 who live in deprived areas.

The report talks about local communities led by peer mentors and those with lived experience, who are uniquely positioned to support people who are experiencing repeat violence. That is a slightly different perspective on crime. With that in mind, what can be done to support grass-roots organisations, which the research found are quite limited by insecure funding?

The First Minister

Pauline McNeill has made some very important points. Her points are exactly why we will continue to support programmes such as the Medics Against Violence programme and, of course, the delivery of the excellent navigator programme. That is why we have invested and continue to invest in the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit, which has been hailed as a great exemplar globally.

I could not agree more with

Pauline McNeill on

supporting grass-roots organisations. The investment in third sector partners is absolutely crucial. That is why more than 20 organisations have received awards from our victim-centred approach fund, including Victim Support Scotland, which was awarded more than £18 million to support the families bereaved by crime service. We will continue to invest in those grass-roots interventions.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs will, of course, be more than happy to continue the conversation with

Pauline McNeill. We have received that excellent report, and it is really important that we act on what it tells us.

The Presiding Officer

We move to general and constituency supplementaries.

Motherwell Concert Hall and Theatre (Closure)

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

Does the First Minister share my dismay that Motherwell concert hall and theatre was closed with immediate effect until further notice due to the discovery of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete in the roof of the building? Of course, safety is absolutely paramount. Motherwell civic theatre and concert hall is a venue beloved by professional and amateur performers, not least the cast of the acclaimed Christmas panto. Will the Scottish Government engage with the local authority on the challenges faced by that important local cultural venue?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Yes, we will continue to engage with local authorities, as we have done throughout not just the past few weeks but the past few months, and I am more than happy for the cabinet secretary to speak directly to Clare Adamson.

Clare Adamson is right. These are difficult issues, and it is really important that local authorities and others continue to align themselves with the Institution of Structural Engineers guidance. That is what partners seek to do and that, of course, empowers them to take the appropriate mitigations, which can, unfortunately, include at times having to close down buildings where it is felt that that is necessary.

I am more than happy to ensure that the cabinet secretary writes to

Clare Adamson, and I am sure that she will be happy to engage with her on that very important issue.

Currie Primary School (Before and After-school Clubs)

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

Childcare formed the cornerstone of the First Minister’s programme for government. It is also central to child development and allowing parents and carers to get back to work.

Yesterday, out of the blue, Currie primary school families lost their before and after-school clubs. Parents have contacted me desperate for help, with one unsure about how they can balance childcare and their job as a teacher in Dalkeith. Will the First Minister meet me to discuss solutions to that very pressing local issue?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I would be more than happy for Sue Webber to furnish the Government with the full details of that. Obviously, she has given a synopsis of the situation. The cabinet secretary will, of course, be more than happy to meet her.

Sue Webber is right. Childcare is not only a cornerstone of my programme for government; it has been a cornerstone of the Government’s approach since 2007. We now have, of course, a very generous childcare offer, which I am very keen to build on. I will ensure that the funds are available to pay the staff in the private, voluntary and independent sector, who do a phenomenal job in providing childcare, £12 an hour.

If Sue Webber can furnish the Government with the full details, I will ensure that the cabinet secretary engages with her on the issue.

Disabled People in Poverty

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

This week, disabled people in Glasgow have written to all MSPs in the region, including the First Minister, to say:

“Despite our large numbers, disabled people have never been a priority for the Scottish Government.”

The Glasgow Centre for Population Health has described the situation as a “human catastrophe”, and the chief executive officer of the Glasgow Disability Alliance has said that the result is that

“Disabled people are dying of poverty, and nobody knows and nobody cares”.

Does the First Minister know that it is this bad for disabled people in the city that he represents, and does he care enough to commit to taking action to address it, including action to end non-residential care charges?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I do understand, because I met the Glasgow Disability Alliance just a matter of weeks ago. I heard from the members of the board of the Glasgow Disability Alliance and from Tressa Burke, who very powerfully, over the years, has articulated the concerns of disabled people living in Scotland.

That is why my programme for government committed to reopening the independent living fund, which was an ask from disabled people’s organisations, and that is why we will continue to work with those organisations to see what more we can do. That will include ending non-residential care charges, which we are still committed to doing by the end of this parliamentary session.

However, I say to Pam Duncan-Glancy that that will come at a significant cost. Therefore, it is really important that when Labour engages with us, it does not turn its back on progressive taxation, as Anas Sarwar seems to have done, or turn its back on any ability for us to raise revenue. All of these well-intentioned initiatives can make a difference, but they will cost money. It is so important that we engage in a credible discussion around how we raise that revenue.

Female Medical Students in Afghanistan (Visas)

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

The Linda Norgrove Foundation in my constituency has been desperately trying to get 20 female medical students out of Taliban-ruled Afghanistan and into medical schools in Scotland. However, they are being stymied by United Kingdom visa issues. The foundation was extremely appreciative of the help of the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills when they met with her last month. Is there anything further the Scottish Government can do to help these inspirational women?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I hope that all of us in the Parliament can unite to back this particular cause. I pay tribute to the excellent work that the Linda Norgrove Foundation does. I think that it is incumbent on all of us to put pressure on the UK Government and the Home Office to help, given that we all know how difficult the plight is of women in Afghanistan.

The cabinet secretary, Jenny Gilruth, has engaged with the foundation. My understanding is that we have also engaged with and written to the UK Government and the Home Office on the matter. I will see if there is anything more that the Scottish Government can possibly do, but I hope that we as a Parliament can join together to say collectively to the UK Government that its response—its foot dragging—on this particular issue is, I am afraid, simply not good enough, and it is letting down women and girls in Afghanistan.

Ferries (Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa)

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The cost of building the Glen Sannox and the Glen Rosa is an on-going scandal. We do not know when they will be finished, what the final bill will be and what has happened to all the money. The Auditor General says he needs extra powers in order to find out what has happened to £128 million of money that was spent by Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd—FMEL. Will the First Minister grant those powers?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

There have been a number of inquiries with which the Scottish Government and those at Ferguson’s have co-operated fully. Hundreds of documents on what is happening at Ferguson’s have been published and put into the public domain.

I will not hesitate in apologising to our island communities for the fact that they are still waiting on the completion of hulls 801 and 802. What I will not do is apologise for the fact that the Scottish Government stepped in and made sure that we secured and saved hundreds of jobs in Inverclyde.

Police Scotland (Funding)

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

Police Scotland recently released a report highlighting that this year’s funding allocation represents a real-terms reduction. As a result, the number of police officers has been reduced to 16,600 in Scotland. At the same time, the number of calls being made to Police Scotland is reportedly only increasing. Can the First Minister advise what action the Scottish Government is taking to ensure that Police Scotland is suitably funded to deal with this demand?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I say to the member that we are funding Police Scotland suitably. It has received an increase of 6.3 per cent—an £80 million increase—and not only has it had an increase to its budget, but recorded crime is at one of its lowest levels in almost 50 years. When we look at Police Scotland officers’ pay, we see that they are the best-paid police officers in the United Kingdom. Therefore, we are making sure that Police Scotland is appropriately funded.

If Foysol Choudhury thinks that there should be an increase to that budget, his party cannot turn its back on progressive taxation or on any way in which we can raise revenue to ensure that our public services are appropriately funded.

AquafilUK Factory (Closure)

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

The AquafilUK factory in Kilbirnie

, which carries out interlacing and twisting for the carpet yarn industry, has been unexpectedly earmarked for closure as early as next month, with the loss of up to 40 jobs. That will be a devastating blow to the workers and the wider community. The company blamed “Covid and Brexit” for the

“challenging ... conditions in the UK”,

as well as a doubling of energy costs. I will meet with the company on site tomorrow. What steps can the Scottish Government take to assist the company and the workforce and lessen the impact of any proposed redundancies?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Neil Gray will be happy to meet with the member about Aquafil and we will see what can be done, where necessary, to prevent job losses. If that unfortunately becomes a material reality, we will see where we can help people affected into alternative employment.

It is interesting that Kenny Gibson says that three factors have contributed: Covid, Brexit and high energy costs. Covid affected businesses across the globe, but the other two factors are unique to the United Kingdom Government and to the UK—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

We will hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

The self-inflicted

damage that Brexit has done and, indeed, the utter mismanagement of the UK public finances, are why we are seeing high energy costs and high inflation, which are damaging businesses across Scotland.

Scottish Government (Freedom of Information Request)

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

During First Minister’s question time on 22 June, I raised a point of order that the First Minister had misled the chamber. On 29 August, the First Minister wrote to tell me what he had intended to say, but what he has stated to me in writing is not true. A freedom of information request reveals that weeks of civil service time and effort were spent in trying to engineer a face-saving response, rather than the First Minister simply admitting that he had misled us all. Does the First Minister share people’s concern that the Scottish civil service appears to be increasingly politicised, which could destroy public trust? [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the member.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

What will he do to prevent such partisan protection for ministers who intentionally mislead in the future?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

It is incredible that I have a member who is telling me what I was meaning to say and think. It is incredible that we have Liam Kerr talking about disrespecting the Parliament. I am meant to take a lecture from the Conservatives about disrespecting Parliament—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us treat one another with courtesy and respect. Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

Do not worry, Presiding Officer, I will get to them about courtesy and respect, because I am meant to take a lecture about disrespecting Parliament from the Conservatives, who illegally shut down the Parliament. I am meant to take lectures about truth and honesty from the party that gave us Boris Johnson. The difference between myself and Liam Kerr, and between the Scottish National Party and the Conservatives, is that the SNP wants to power our just transition and our offshore renewables sector. The Tories, I am afraid, just want to hold us back.

United Kingdom Immigration Policy

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

New data released this morning shows that the vast majority of Scots view immigration as a positive benefit that enriches Scotland culturally and economically. Can the First Minister update the chamber on his interactions with the United Kingdom Government about labour shortages in key sectors as a result of the UK’s archaic immigration policies?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Audrey Nicoll articulates very well the positive benefits of migration. In fact, virtually every study under the sun shows that migrants who have come to the UK have contributed more than they have taken from it. I have to say that the hostile environment that has been created by successive UK Governments is woeful. The UK has become a pathetically insular country. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

Not only is it morally wrong but, undoubtedly, it cuts our nose to spite our face in terms of the economic potential that migrants could bring to Scotland and, indeed, the rest of the UK. Frankly, I have lost hope for the Conservative UK Government when it comes to migration, but I would plead with Anas Sarwar to use any influence that he has with Keir Starmer in the UK Labour Party, as it seems to be engaged in a race to the bottom on the issue of migration. That will not help the UK and it certainly will not help Scotland.

Trains (Short Running)

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

A persistent issue for many years has been the short running of trains on the Fife to Edinburgh service, which is well used by my constituents. When I raised that with ScotRail and the previous Minister for Transport, I was assured that it would be resolved, but it continues. Today, for example, the 08:11 service from Inverkeithing—a busy service—had just two carriages, which left passengers stranded on the platform and having to wait 20 minutes for the next service, which would mean that they arrived late at their place of work.

The reduction in peak-time fares is welcome, but it is no use to people if they cannot get on a train in the first place. When will that practice finally end?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

In the time that we have been in office, we have invested significantly in the rolling stock in Scotland. I know that the previous Minister for Transport held a meeting with Fife MSPs in the spring to discuss the issues that Murdo Fraser mentioned.

I am more than happy for the cabinet secretary to write to Murdo Fraser and, where appropriate, to meet Fife MSPs so that we ensure that the people of Fife get the service that they absolutely require.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s question time.

There will be a short suspension to allow people to leave the chamber and the public gallery.

12:46 Meeting suspended.

12:47 On resuming—

Single-use Vapes (Environmental Impact)

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

T

he next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-10284, in the name of Gillian Mackay, on the environmental impact of single-use vapes.

The debate will be concluded without any question being put. It is heavily subscribed, so members will have to stick to their speaking allocations. I have already spoken to those who will speak later in the debate, as they will be required to speak to a slightly tighter schedule.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes reported concerns regarding the environmental impact of single-use vapes, including in the Central Scotland region; recognises that, in the year ending January 2023, there were reportedly an estimated 543,000 vapers in Scotland, of which, 9% were under 16 and 14% were under 18 years of age; understands that most under-18 e-cigarette users prefer single-use vapes; welcomes the publication of a review that the Scottish Government commissioned Zero Waste Scotland to carry out into the environmental impact of single-use e-cigarettes; understands that, according to Zero Waste Scotland, the total emissions associated with disposable vapes in 2022 were estimated to have been up to 4,292 tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent (CO2e), or the equivalent of around 2,100 cars on Scotland’s roads; further understands that, in the 52 weeks to early April 2023, the number of disposable vapes consumed in Scotland was estimated to be between 21 and 26 million units; understands that the weight of packaging and materials discarded as a result of single-use e-cigarette consumption in Scotland is currently between 800 and 1,000 tonnes per year; applauds the work of campaigners and organisations such as Laura Young and ASH Scotland to raise awareness of this issue; considers that the environmental and health impacts of vaping products are rising, and notes the view that action to tackle this is required from retailers, manufacturers and the Scottish Government.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

I recognise the strength of feeling on the issue in the Parliament and I thank everyone who will contribute today. The fact that we are so tight on time is heartening and points to how seriously the Parliament takes the issue.

I know that work is going on in many offices across the Parliament to tackle the issue, and I thank those who attended one or both of the round tables that I have chaired. I thank campaigners such as Laura Young, the Marine Conservation Society, ASH Scotland, Asthma + Lung UK, the British Heart Foundation, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the

Daily Record

,

The Inverness Courier

and the many others who have helped and contributed to the campaign so far. There is more to do and more round tables to come, and I encourage everyone to join the discussion.

I thank the Scottish Government—particularly my colleague Lorna Slater—and Zero Waste Scotland for the work that was commissioned on the environmental impact of single-use vapes, which my motion mentions. The review estimated that the total emissions that were associated with single-use vapes in 2022 were between 3,375 and 4,292 tonnes of CO2

. That is the equivalent of the emissions from 2,100 cars on the road. It also showed that the weight of packaging and materials that are discarded as a result of single-use e-cigarette consumption in Scotland is between 800 and 1,000 tonnes a year. Other figures show that 1.3 million single-use vapes were thrown away every week in the United Kingdom last year, although that figure is likely to be far higher now.

This is a looming environmental catastrophe. Local authorities and waste-processing companies are concerned about the fire risk that is associated with the incorrect disposal of such devices. In addition, the devices are difficult to recycle, as they are made of mixed materials, and the lithium batteries are particularly resource intensive to make. Many discarded batteries are ending up on our beaches and in green spaces, as well as in our towns and cities. I have seen discarded batteries between cobbles in Edinburgh and at home in Falkirk. Some of our most iconic streets are being littered by the products, and the sheer number of them being thrown away is astonishing.

In the middle of a climate crisis, the last thing that we need is to have another polluting single-use product, and a ban on disposables is the minimum that we need in order to protect the planet. There are also issues with the packaging for refillable vapes, and we need to address that now to ensure that we are not merely moving the litter problem down the line.

There is an issue with illegal vapes. We do not know if they are any more environmentally damaging than others. Their composition is much more difficult to find, especially when new products come on the market. Preventing their importation by examining the current registration and licensing scheme should be a priority. We will need a four-nation approach to ensure that the importation of vapes is tracked. I will be writing to Scottish Government and United Kingdom Government ministers in the coming days to ask them to work with me on a way forward.

It is essential to consider the health, environmental, trading standards, licensing and regulation issues as a whole when we are dealing with single-use vapes. To reduce the number of vapes that are discarded, we need to help people to give up nicotine altogether; regulate, tax and license the products better; stop the supply of single-use vapes to young people; and—as I know is crucial for many members—prevent young people from being tempted to take up vaping. We need retailers to step up and do what they can to reduce the environmental and health impact of the products.

I wrote to retailers to ask them to put the products behind cover and to treat all nicotine-based products in the same way. I got very few responses. Those that I did receive said that retailers would wait to comply with whatever regulations were introduced.

We should be using our current regulation-making powers to make retailers put the products behind cover. We need to introduce plain packaging, and ensure that flavours are removed or restricted heavily, so that we do not have blue bubble gum, candyfloss or rainbow unicorn, to name a few. I expect that, in discussing flavours, we will hear the usual cries that adults enjoy colours and flavours, too. This may be coming from me—someone who loves a pick-’n’-mix or two—but I know no adult who would be influenced by the name “Rainbow Unicorn” to try a vape. However, I do know plenty of young children who would be tempted by it. Advertising and the presence of the products in television programmes and social media needs to be taken seriously, and I am grateful to the Advertising Standards Authority for—it wrote to me in the past couple of days detailing this—the action that it is already taking to address that. We need to remain vigilant, however.

We often get branded as killjoys when we try to good things in environmental and public health policy areas, and we may be seen as stopping people from doing things that they enjoy, but the issue is far too important for us to be worried about being seen in that way, and I encourage colleagues from all parties to take a bold stance on the matter. For the sake of the environment and—importantly for all of us—for the sake of the health and wellbeing of today’s children and young people, that has to be done. They should have been the generation with the lowest-ever rate of nicotine addiction. That is still absolutely achievable but only if all of us put their needs at the forefront of our minds.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

I welcome this important debate, and I thank my colleague Gillian Mackay for bringing it to the chamber. The motion for the debate and Gillian Mackay’s opening speech say it all, and I will not repeat the shocking statistics contained in the motion on the devastating environmental impact that disposable vapes are having, although I will go on to say a bit more about their impact on children and young people.

I am delighted that, in its programme for government, the Scottish Government has committed to tackle the damage that is done by single-use vapes, and that it is consulting on a proposal to ban their sale. Scotland is leading the way in the UK on this hugely important issue, and it is a perfect example of our Government saying, “No. We will not allow the damage to continue in our country.” Good legislation protects people and the environment, and I am proud that we are leading the way.

The harm that disposable vapes do to our parks, rivers and beaches is incredibly serious. Millions of vapes are littered every year, causing significant and increasing litter clear-up and waste management costs for local authorities. Those vapes contain copper wires and lithium batteries, which are incredibly dangerous to children and animals, and are hugely difficult to dispose of responsibly. It is my understanding that 29 of Scotland’s 32 local authorities, including East Dunbartonshire Council in my constituency, have passed motions supporting a ban.

The surge in vaping by young people, as highlighted by leading health charities such as ASH Scotland and Asthma + Lung UK, is also incredibly concerning and, as Gillian Mackay said, is driven by the popularity of cheap, sweet-flavoured, brightly coloured disposable vapes. Just as alcopops once did, those vapes hook children into a world of addiction. In a previous debate on the topic, I highlighted the supposedly cool online merchandise aimed at kids, which allows them to vape undetected by parents or teachers. Make no mistake: this is an insidious industry. As ASH Scotland has pointed out, most vapes include nicotine, which is highly addictive, and toxic e-liquids that have not been safety tested for inhalation and threaten to damage growing lungs.

The number of primary school children who are vaping has reached epidemic levels, which is a major public health concern. A single disposable vape can last for 600 puffs, which is the equivalent of smoking 20 cigarettes. According to Zero Waste Scotland, the lithium batteries used in the most popular disposable vapes could be recharged up to 500 times, if design allowed.

Single-use vapes cause immense danger to the environment. Let us be clear: they were never a good thing and are produced only to make profits for large companies. An investigation by the

Daily Record

revealed that a school fire in the Borders just before the start of this year’s summer holidays was blamed on the lithium battery of a vape shorting inside a metal bin in a stairwell. The

Daily Record

has been at the forefront of calls for a ban on single-use vapes, highlighting the health concerns, and I commend it for that. Campaigner Laura Young, known as the vape crusader, told the newspaper:

“Teachers have a hard enough job to do without being on monitoring duties making sure kids don’t have vapes.”

Last month, a survey showed that four out of five Scots back the outlawing of disposable vapes. The YouGov poll found that 77 per cent of Scottish adults either strongly or somewhat support a ban on the products. Figures for the UK as a whole are identical. Earlier this year, Keep Scotland Beautiful called on all Scottish retailers to voluntarily stop displaying single-use vapes, following in the footsteps of Waitrose, which has taken them off its shelves.

Let us get rid of these products, which do nothing but harm to Scotland’s people and environment.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I am pleased to contribute to the debate. I congratulate Gillian Mackay on securing the debate and acknowledge her work in this area.

Many members here in the chamber know that I am happy to work alongside my colleague Emma Harper as co-convener of the cross-party group on lung health, and it is my privilege to continue my role as the parliamentary smoking cessation champion for Asthma + Lung UK.

Vapes, especially single-use disposable vapes, are a ticking time bomb and one of the biggest challenges that we face, which is in no small part due to the age and demographic of those who manufacturers are unashamedly and scandalously targeting.

As Gillian Mackay’s motion recognises,

“in the year ending January 2023, there were ... an estimated 543,000 vapers in Scotland, of which, 9% were under 16 and 14% were under 18”.

Those figures will only get worse unless something dramatic is done.

In the past few months, the Local Government Association in England reported that, for the first time, its members have called for single-use vapes to be banned on environmental and health grounds. The LGA also points out that single-use vapes are designed as a unit and that their batteries cannot be separated from the plastic, making it almost impossible to recycle them without special treatment. The lithium batteries inside the plastic cases can increase sharply in temperature, as we have already heard, becoming flammable, which is a major concern. They cost the taxpayer millions of pounds in damage to equipment and for the specialist treatment that is needed to deal with hazardous waste.

Research by the non-profit organisation, Material Focus, has shown that up to 5 million single-use vape units are being thrown away in the United Kingdom every year. That is more than four times the figure for 2022. It amounts to eight vapes a second being discarded, with the lithium in the products being enough to create around 5,000 electric car batteries a year. Those are frightening statistics.

I also echo the extreme concerns of groups such as the Scotland wing of Asthma + Lung UK and ASH Scotland, as well as parents, carers and teachers regarding the impact that vaping is having on children and young people. We know from the reports that we have seen and the campaigns that are being conducted how harmful it is becoming.

The phenomenon is deeply worrying, and it is being primarily targeted at young people and children. It appears to be fashionable at the moment and the display of that behaviour is encouraging peer groups to think that vaping is good and cool when it is anything but. We need to manage that situation and challenge it.

Anti-smoking groups and charities, as well as medical professionals, are now especially concerned about vaping. The designs and flavours of products, particularly those with fruity, bubble gum or ice flavours, appear to attract children. Those flavours and how the products are packaged are an attempt to encourage young people to vape. They are often sold at checkouts, which is similar to what happened with sweets and confectionery, and retailers will have to take a strong view on that. Strict new measures to regulate the display and marketing of vapes, such as those that are in place to deal with tobacco, are needed now.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

I begin as other members have by congratulating Gillian Mackay on securing this members’ business debate on the environmental impacts of single-use vapes and on the work that she and her team have done to raise the issue in Parliament.

As members of the Scottish Parliament, we are in a unique position to use our platform to amplify the work of campaigners across the country. I therefore hope that everyone in today’s debate will join me in commending the efforts of environmental campaigner Laura Young for her tireless work on the issue. In fact, it was after hearing about Laura’s work that I first became involved in the issue.

Laura was kind enough to take me out on a vape walk, which was an opportunity to go out with her and walk the streets of Dundee to see whether we could find any discarded vapes, while learning more about the issue on the way. As well as giving up her time to tackle the issue and to meet and educate me, Laura encouraged local student activists to get involved. She is inspiring the next generation of environmental campaigners, so I take the opportunity today to put on the record my thanks to Laura for her perseverance and commitment. I say to her that she should keep campaigning—she is getting results.

Back in Dundee, on our vape walk, in just one hour Laura and I found 63 discarded single-use vapes in and around the university campus. Laura explained that that was not unusual, especially following a Friday or Saturday night out, so we decided to make some inquiries on campus and in the local shops that sell disposable vapes to find out what the realistic alternative to littering was. We found that there were no safe disposal points in and around the shops that were selling the products.

The best that we could hope for was that people would dispose of single-use vapes in ordinary waste bins. The problem with simply putting them in the bin is that, although it keeps them off the streets and makes the streets look nicer, it does not make the environment any cleaner because they will eventually end up in landfill or incinerators, still polluting our soil and air.

Worse still, as we have heard, there have been multiple instances of what are known as zombie batteries in vapes that have been improperly disposed of causing fires and hazards at waste processing sites, which puts the workers there at risk. That has led to calls for improved recycling facilities to help to deal with the mounting number of disposable vapes.

However, disposable vapes do not harm the environment only when they are discarded after use; they also have an impact at source. Although they will be used for just one day or night, they use scarce resources. We simply cannot afford to discard things such as the lithium in the batteries that power the vapes after just one use. That lithium could instead be used to power our transition away from fossil fuels.

Therefore, I do not believe that the answer is improved recycling or design regulations. Instead, there must be an outright ban on single-use vapes in Scotland. Since my first vape walk with Laura, support for a ban has grown. Starting with Dundee City Council in the region that I represent—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

You need to conclude, Ms Villalba.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

Okay. Twenty-six councils now support a ban, along with a range of organisations, so—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I must ask you to stop, Ms Villalba. I indicated at the beginning of the debate that I would rigorously enforce the time limits to give everyone a chance to speak.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

I, too, congratulate Gillian Mackay on securing debating time on this vital matter.

Just after the debate began, I received an answer to a written question in which I asked the Scottish Government whether it intended to increase the fines for retailers that sell to under-18s, as has been proposed by the UK Vaping Industry Association. The answer from the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health, Jenni Minto, was no. I hope that the Scottish Government will reconsider that.

By 2021, the number of Scots who smoked had dropped to 11 per cent following legislative changes, including the banning of smoking in enclosed public places and workplaces and the banning of the sale of packs of 10 cigarettes and menthol cigarettes, but there is still a huge issue in many communities, given that 32 per cent of adults in our poorest income quintile smoke, whereas only 6 per cent in the most prosperous quintile do. It is now evident that one nicotine addiction has been replaced by another.

When they entered the market, vapes were said to deliver nicotine while avoiding many of the harmful ingredients in cigarettes, yet scientists are still unclear about the extent of the damage that vapes cause, particularly to children and young adults.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention?

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

Sadly, I will not. I would love to but, unfortunately, I have only four minutes.

Given that it is estimated that 76,000 under-18s in Scotland vape and that they use primarily single-use vapes, it is evident that those colourful, fruit-flavoured, cheap devices are no longer only a means of quitting smoking. For as long as we allow single-use vapes to be sold in shops where they are placed next to sweets and often put on special offer, we will encourage younger people to damage their health.

I welcome recent reports that the UK Government will also explore the banning of single-use vapes following consultation on youth vaping. However, last week, it was reported that the Tories accepted a £350,000 donation from Sandeep Singh Chadha, director of Supreme 8 Ltd, a UK-based company that distributes Elf Bars, which are vapes that are regularly found littered around Scotland. Elf Bar flavours include watermelon, bubble gum and cotton candy ice, which are unequivocally aimed at enticing children and young people.

The UK Government’s official briefing on banning free vape samples being distributed to children endorsed Juul Labs, claiming that the company was a leader in combating youth vaping. That same company has received the most complaints of any vape-producing company for fuelling an epidemic of youth vaping in the US, where it agreed to pay out more than $1 billion to settle claims that it unlawfully promoted products to children. That is highly concerning, and it suggests that the UK Government’s policy on youth vaping could be determined by the interests of the industry, rather than on the basis of the evidence.

We know that tobacco companies profit from industry-induced nicotine addiction and that they attract people as young as possible. The UK cigarette market is the largest in western Europe—in 2021, it was worth £2.6 billion. Given that the UK’s five top-selling tobacco companies held more than a third of shares in the global e-cigarette market as of 2021, it is clear that the so-called health benefits of vaping are not the driver for further increasing sales.

The World Health Organization has described tobacco industry interests as

“fundamentally and irreconcilably opposed to the aims of public health”.

Those same companies are currently dictating the vaping market that tens of thousands of children and young people buy into. The earlier children and young adults become addicted to nicotine, the higher the likelihood that they will continue to buy vapes for the rest of their lives or switch to cigarettes.

Ten per cent of young vape users admit to throwing the devices on the ground after use, as Laura Young’s campaign to ban disposable vapes highlighted through regular litter picks. I am taking part in a litter pick on a beach on Monday, so no doubt I will find some, too.

Almost half of young vapers said that the packaging does not provide any disposal information such as where to send used batteries. In the past year, 13 million disposable vapes were incorrectly disposed of in Scotland, including 2.6 million that were littered.

Given that e-cigarette companies are not taking responsibility for the health impacts of the waste pollution that they cause, it is essential that the Scottish Government acts to ban the devices, which harm the environment and the wellbeing of Scots. With several other European countries considering bans, Scotland taking steps to stop the sale of single-use vapes is a significant opportunity—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

You need to conclude, Mr Gibson.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

—

to re-establish ourselves as a leading public health nation. I support the motion.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

I join members in thanking Gillian Mackay for bringing the debate to the chamber. It is an issue that I have spoken about before, and it is one of real concern.

It does not seem that long ago that vaping companies were lobbying me in meetings in my office, trying to get my support. To their surprise, I was strongly against universal access. They thought that I would support them because vapes were being marketed as a tool to quit smoking. Indeed, that is the one area in which I support their use, particularly as a medical intervention recommended by a medical professional.

I well remember asking the representatives of one vaping company about who owned it. Of course, I knew that it was a tobacco company. The question that I put to them was whether they were really suggesting that tobacco companies were producing vaping products to help their customers to stop using their products, thereby putting themselves out of business. By that logic, once they had helped every smoker to quit, there would be no need for any of their products. If vapes were solely for the purpose of smoking cessation, why were there so many flavours and additives to draw in users and potential users? I informed them that I was not that gullible. Stephanie Callaghan and I attended one of those meetings together, and she saw my frustration with that particular vaping company.

One thing that concerns me is that people can go into significant high street confectionery stores and find walls of single-use vaping products. Everything that I was concerned about back when I was in those meetings has manifested and then some.

I have a daughter in secondary school, and I am shocked at the level of vaping among pupils. There is anecdotal evidence—and my daughter thinks—that as much as half the student population has tried or regularly uses vaping products. Moreover, there is a whole microindustry around students buying and selling the products in schools, which is evidenced by the quantity of products confiscated daily by campus policemen. More significantly, the number of students smoking tobacco, marijuana or worse remains high and is climbing. Vaping is a door to addiction and a step towards using more harmful products; it is not just about smoking cessation, as the marketing says.

Single-use vapes are a health hazard in and of themselves, as Gillian Mackay said, because so many of them are found on our beaches and in public spaces, and recycling lithium is incredibly difficult, especially from vapes.

I know that we are short of time, Deputy Presiding Officer, so I will be brief to try to give you some time back.

We need to regulate vapes much more effectively and keep them out of the hands of schoolchildren. The marketing budgets of tobacco firms have been used to entice entirely new customers, which will lead to the use of even more harmful products. The use of vapes is a habit, as well as a social statement. Peer pressure is a key driver; after all, it is not really smoking, is it? As to the wonderful flavour of bubble gum, for goodness’ sake—yeah, that is really aimed at adults wanting to quit. It is too easy for pupils to be drawn in, making the step to the next level of substance use a bit easier.

As a Parliament, we can surely come together. There are things that we could do and steps that we could—and have to—take to ensure that we stamp out the use of single-use vapes. I thank Gillian Mackay for giving me the opportunity to raise the issue once again.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

I, too, thank Gillian Mackay for securing the debate, and I thank members from across the chamber for their contributions, which have covered many aspects of the issue.

I chair the cross-party group on accident prevention and safety awareness; I will try to limit myself to the work that we have done on those areas and I will highlight areas that have not been mentioned.

The Child Accident Prevention Trust has recently issued a warning about the fact that hospitals are reporting growing numbers of children accidentally swallowing liquid nicotine from e-cigarette refills and disposables. There is a risk of poisoning from swallowing e-cigarette liquid; the symptoms are usually mild and include nausea and vomiting, but serious poisoning can happen after swallowing larger amounts. As with medicines or cleaning products, e-cigarettes should be kept away from children and toddlers. Although no deaths have been reported in the UK, a two-year-old girl from Israel was fatally poisoned from swallowing an e-cigarette refill, which reminds us to keep nicotine products of all kinds away from children and toddlers. As Katrina Phillips from CAPT has said,

“Babies put everything in their mouths – it’s how they explore the world around them. Toddlers are intensely curious – if you leave your bag on the floor, they’ll be in there like a shot. So remember to keep harmful things like e-cigarette refills where small children can’t find them.”

That is the tip of the iceberg. As we know, disposable vapes and refillables contain lithium iron batteries. The cross-party group has returned to that issue many times because of the danger of ingestion of lithium iron batteries for babies and toddlers. Yet, we are discarding those batteries into our environment where, as Gillian Mackay has said, they can easily be picked up—these things break up when they are disposed of, so you get the plastics and the broken bits of copper, which is both an environmental issue and a serious issue for children.

The cross-party group also worked closely with the Society of Chief Officers of Trading Standards in Scotland, which has talked about the complexity of the regulatory landscape with regard to those products. The products that are bought online often do not come from reputable production sources—I use the word “reputable” ironically, because I do not think that any of them are particularly reputable. SCOTSS has identified that products that come from the internet and are delivered directly to homes contain more nicotine than is recommended under the European Union and British standards as well as more complex chemicals, which have not been tested for human use, and in greater volumes. They are poorly designed products that are more likely to lead to the other issue that has been of concern to the cross-party group, namely zombie batteries, which have already been mentioned.

Thermal runaway can happen in any lithium battery. If people want to know how important that issue is, they should consider that people who go through an airport to go on holiday are asked whether they have any lithium iron battery products in their luggage—that is because it is too dangerous for them to go in the hold in case a thermal runaway happens during a flight. Yet, we are discarding these products in the volumes that Alexander Stewart mentioned when he quoted the report, which I was going to use, too.

There is complete consensus that we have to do something about the issue. I welcome the Scottish Government’s consulting on the ban of disposable vapes and I hope that it can lead to greater regulation of the product throughout the UK.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I am conscious that a large number of members still wish to participate in the debate. I am minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[

Gillian Mackay

]

Motion agreed to.

With the discipline that members have shown in speaking, I should be able to protect the four minutes of the remaining members. I call Colin Smyth for up to four minutes.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

I thank Gillian Mackay for introducing her motion.

The great vape debate is often, “Are e-cigarettes saving smokers or creating new addicts?” The reality is that it is probably a bit of both. We have seen a welcome decrease in smoking rates in Scotland from 28 per cent of adults in 2003 to 11 per cent in 2021, thanks to policy interventions such as the ban on smoking in public places. Given that vaping is clearly dangerous but appears less damaging than smoking, I am prepared to accept that e-cigarettes can help people quit smoking tobacco and, hopefully, continue that trend.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

The paediatrician who we heard from at the round table on Monday raised the concern that we are trading two health-harming products off against each other, rather than recognising the health-harming nature of vapes. Does the member agree that we need to recognise this health-harming product and treat it on its own, rather than trading it off against cigarettes?

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

I absolutely accept that and, as we have heard from a number of members, it is also important to note that

we face a growing avalanche of children and young people who never smoke—and never had any intention of smoking—but are now choosing to vape.

As ASH Scotland highlighted in March, using the Government’s figures, regular e-cigarette use by 15-year-olds has tripled in the past five years and has more than doubled for 13-year-olds, with single-use vapes being the product choice for the vast majority of young people.

That is not surprising. As we have heard, the brightly coloured, fruit-flavoured, cheap vapes are obscenely marketed in shop displays and on social media platforms clearly and specifically to target young people. The gangsters behind many of those products are no better than the people in big tobacco firms who glamorised smoking in the 1960s and 1970s, when they knew that they were killing people.

I am frustrated that the Government has not yet listened to the long-standing calls from Asthma + Lung UK Scotland and ASH Scotland to fully enact the remaining regulations from the Health (Tobacco, Nicotine etc and Care) (Scotland) Act 2016 to restrict the marketing and promotion of vaping products. I hope that we see that happen soon, but we need to go further. As this debate has shown, alongside the health impact of e-cigarettes, the toxic and single-use plastic waste that is caused by disposable vapes has become a new environmental crisis.

Last week, stark figures from Material Focus showed that the number of disposable vapes thrown away in the UK has quadrupled to 5 million a week in the past year. More than 7 million are bought every week and just 17 per cent of users recycle those vapes in a shop or local recycling centre. Inspirational campaigners such as Laura Young have highlighted that people often choose to dispose of their vapes on Scotland’s streets and in our play parks. The industry has failed to show responsibility by providing proper information on its products about how and where to dispose of vapes in a safe, sustainable way and it has failed to put in place a proper network of take-back schemes.

Calling for a bit more recycling is not the answer. There are already alternatives, which also need to be better regulated, but disposable vapes are an unnecessary evil that could and should be banned. Yes—we need to get the detail right. Any laws need to be future proof, so that they can be easily adapted through regulations if new products are developed.

The upcoming Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill is an opportunity to follow the lead that Wales is showing, as well, it seems, as England this week—possibly under the current Government, but certainly under the next Labour Government.

If the Scottish Government does not include in its Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill a ban on the sale of disposable vapes, Labour MSPs will amend that bill, to try and take disposable vapes off our shelves and away from littering our streets.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

Presiding Officer, thank you for doing your absolute best to make sure that we all get to make a contribution today. I also thank Gillian Mackay for bringing the debate to the chamber and I certainly back up what my colleague Brian Whittle was saying earlier.

The fact that we are so pushed for time today is a testament to how seriously we all take the environmental health impact of vaping. First, I welcome the consultation. There really is no place for single-use vapes in a zero waste Scotland, and the array of discarded shiny, coloured, used vapes that are scattered everywhere is a hot topic at the moment when I am out and about dog walking.

The meteoric rise in vaping among young people has rocked all of us, and the Scottish Youth Parliament report “Single Use, Many Voices”, which was released earlier this month, highlights that 84 per cent of young respondents have seen no information on where and how to dispose of single-use vapes. We must take that seriously. It is our responsibility to provide good information on disposal by using the same platforms that the tobacco industry uses to glamorise vaping, which young people use every day.

We have heard plenty about the health and wellbeing impacts of vaping and none of us wants to imagine how that could affect families across Scotland in the future. Let us make no mistake—the tobacco industry will continue to promote misinformation and sell vaping as a positive lifestyle choice to young people, so we need to help them fight back, and that will be the focus of my speech today.

I recently spoke to a young constituent, in her early 20s, who talked of the shock that she felt when she realised the high levels of nicotine and the range of chemicals that are in e-liquids. She told me that pubs and clubs are full of young people openly vaping, and that they believe that social vaping on weekends is pretty much harmless, that vapes merely contain water vapour and that using them has no real consequences. Since finding out the facts, she has stopped vaping completely. She is now aware that high nicotine intake impacts brain development and that her age group has an increased vulnerability to nicotine addiction. She rightly sees herself and her friends as victims of a targeted marketing campaign. Trust me, she is really angry and is setting all her friends straight on what she sees as the dangers.

As my young constituent demonstrates, arming our young people with the facts is the biggest weapon that we have in the fight against tobacco industry propaganda. Unfortunately, the large sums that big tobacco spends on influencing social perceptions often work. The report that I mentioned tells us that young people’s vaping consumption makes them feel anxious and trapped, which is incredibly sad. Frankly, it is devastating to think that what we once used as a smoking cessation tool has been used to peddle a lifestyle con.

I could say much more about the amazing work that is being done across my constituency by Public Health Lanarkshire and organisations such as Landed, which has worked tirelessly to educate and inform people over the past six years. However, I am aware that we are very short of time today, so I finish with this. We already know enough to take action on vaping. We must not delay. We must use the legislation that we have. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the 1950s, when emerging dangers around smoking first arose. Let us act now.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I join others in thanking Gillian Mackay for her leadership on the issue inside and outside of Parliament. She has worked with tireless campaigners such as Laura Young and the many health and environmental groups and organisations that back the call for a ban on disposable vapes.

Whenever change is proposed in this Parliament, particularly on increased regulation, we often get calls of “Catastrophe!” from whatever vested interest is resistant to the change. However, what is really striking about the call to restrict vapes is that there is not much of a debate at all; there is a lot of unanimity on the issue. I am the 10th speaker in the debate, and every speech so far has backed the call for a ban on disposable vapes. I am sure that that point will not be lost on the minister in closing the debate.

That unanimity is all the more remarkable because there has been a huge lobbying effort from the vaping industry over the past five years in this Parliament. Brian Whittle talked about his experiences of how that has played out, and I, too, went through several years of seeing constant requests in my inbox from public relations firms fronting up vaping companies that wanted to meet me.

It is probably because vape products are so uniquely problematic that we have that unanimity of concern. That is why 29 out of the 32 local authorities across Scotland have passed motions calling for vapes to be banned or controlled. If you wanted to sit down and design a cheap disposable product that litters the countryside with plastics, electronics and batteries, causes a fire risk, cannot be recycled or reused and puts young people at risk of bronchitis, breathing problems and nicotine addiction, it would be the perfect target for a ban, but that is exactly what disposable vapes are. As lawmakers, we are still catching up with the reality of that.

It is clear that communities are seeing the impact everywhere—for example, Fife Street Champions picked up 664 disposable vapes in one month this spring. A Keep Scotland Beautiful survey shows that 44 per cent of people see disposable vapes littering their communities far more often. I am sure that many of the coastal communities that will be involved in the Marine Conservation Society beach cleans in the next week will see increasing numbers of vapes on their beaches.

All that builds up to the staggering national picture that we have heard about in the debate. Zero Waste Scotland estimate that 2.7 million vapes were littered in Scotland last year alone. That is hardly surprising, given that there has been an 18-fold increase in the use of disposable vapes from one year to the next.

The health impacts on young people are truly concerning, precisely because we do not know what kind of ticking time bomb exists here—a point that was made very well by Rona Mackay. This is yet another example of why following the precautionary principle is so important. Corporate interests should not be allowed to mess around with the unknown long-term health of our children, just because there is a big short-term market opportunity.

I again thank Gillian Mackay for leading this debate, and I certainly look forward to the minister’s response on what the next steps in banning vapes in Scotland and across the rest of the UK will be.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

I, too, congratulate my colleague Gillian Mackay on securing what is obviously a hugely important debate, given the number of MSPs who are speaking in it.

I also thank Asthma + Lung UK Scotland, the British Lung Foundation and ASH Scotland for their engagement and very helpful briefings ahead of the debate.

I also need to give a shout out to a couple of people in the youth work department of Dumfries and Galloway Council—Kelly Ross and Mark Molloy. We have met and are starting to work together to highlight and tackle vaping among our young people across Dumfries and Galloway.

As co-convener of the cross-party group on lung health and a registered nurse, I am really interested in the impact of vaping on lung health, especially in the light of the very serious health concerns that medical experts have expressed, but I am also interested in the issue that is raised in Gillian Mackay’s motion—the environmental impact of single-use vapes and the safety of the devices.

I know that we are a bit challenged for time today, so I will just pick up on a couple of points. The materials that are used in disposable vapes make them a potential hazard to humans, wildlife and the environment when they are thrown away, and the lithium that is used for the batteries is a precious metal of which we are already facing a global shortage. In the past year in the UK, more than 10 tonnes of lithium has been thrown out with disposable vapes—enough to make batteries for 1,200 electric cars. If we are to address the climate emergency and enable a green transition, we need to make the best use of scarce materials such as lithium. If disposable vapes were rechargeable, for example, they could be reused up to 300 times, which would drastically reduce the number of vapes that end up in landfill every day.

Vaping can reduce lung function, due to gas-exchange disturbance and inflammation of tissue. In my career as a nurse in the operating room, I have worked laparoscopically on people’s lungs, and I have seen directly the lung damage that is caused by cigarette smoking. We are, however, now starting to see e-cigarette or vaping-associated lung injury—or EVALI. A public health investigation in Illinois and Wisconsin in the United States found that the median age of patients suffering from EVALI was 21—21 years old, Presiding Officer. Despite what the industry might say, nicotine has a detrimental health effect, adolescents are more vulnerable to nicotine dependency than adults are and chronic nicotine exposure can impact on brain development.

At Gillian Mackay’s round-table event on Monday, we heard from Dr Jonathan Coutts, who also presented at a lung health cross-party group meeting that my colleague Alexander Stewart and I attended a few months ago. He presented the facts on the harm that vaping does to young people’s brains. We know that it has an impact on brain development; it can contribute to cognitive and attention-deficit conditions and worsen mood disorders, including depression and suicidal thoughts.

It is a huge issue and it is clear that something needs to be done. For example, one of the statistics that I found is that using one vape is like smoking 52 cigarettes, so clearly we need to be concerned about the matter.

I would like to know from the minister whether the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 will need to be considered if we are proposing changes to regulation, and I would be interested to find out whether there will need to be some kind of exclusion from that act to allow regulations to be taken forward.

In closing—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

You need to conclude, Ms Harper.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

I am on my last sentence, Presiding Officer. I was just going to thank Gillian Mackay again.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Carol Mochan is the last speaker in the open debate. You have up to four minutes, Ms Mochan.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

As others have done, I take the opportunity to thank Gillian Mackay for bringing the debate to the chamber. It is a really important issue, as members have mentioned.

As we have heard today, there is willingness across the chamber to make progress on a response to the issue, with purpose. I therefore hope that the Government will outline soon how it will do that, and that it will consider using some Government time for a debate on the matter so that we can have a more in-depth discussion.

It is right that we talk of the serious environmental impacts of single-use vapes. They have created a throwaway culture, which, as we have heard, is damaging our environment and our efforts to tackle the climate emergency.

I will not restate all the effects that members have put across so well so far today, as I know that time is marching towards the start of the chamber’s afternoon sitting. I will, however, use a small amount of the time that we have to talk about something that has been mentioned, including in the motion; the concerningly high rate of use among our young people. Sheila Duffy of ASH Scotland has said that single-use vapes are

“creating addiction among young people, including very young children in primary and lower secondary schools, where we haven’t seen much of an issue with tobacco.”

That is a really concerning statement.

The content of vapes is such that they are becoming addictive for people of an age at which tobacco addiction is generally unheard of. That has been exacerbated by the facts that the products are easy to access, are bright, colourful and catch the eye—as we have heard from other members—and, compared with similar products, can be cheap. That brings together the health and environmental impacts of single-use vapes.

I have been trying to ascertain the number of people presenting to hospital addiction services or other health services with complications that are linked to vaping. It has become very apparent that there might need to be some discussion between Government and the health boards to consider having a separate logging option for health concerns or complications relating to vapes, because it is really difficult to find out what the figures for that are. It would be useful for us to separate smoking from vapes, as other members have mentioned.

I know that we are tight for time, so I will conclude. It has been a very worthwhile debate, and there have been many reasonable suggestions from members of the various parties across the chamber. It is clear that we need to deal with the environmental impact. I look forward to the minister's contribution. I understand that we are having an environment debate and that she has responsibility for the environmental impacts. However—to pick up on Stephanie Callaghan’s point—I would like to know what the Government will do now and how we can work across the UK, because some commitments have been made by the UK Government. Will the minister work on a cross-portfolio basis to see whether there is something that we can do about recording the damage from and impacts of vaping and e-cigarettes, particularly in respect of single-use vapes?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I

join my fellow members in congratulating Gillian Mackay on securing the debate and in thanking her for her on-going campaigning on the issue.

In the contributions to the debate we have heard about the energy that has been generated and the focus of communities and councils across Scotland on this serious matter. I am comforted that we all understand the issues well and that we all agree on the seriousness of the concerns that are being raised.

I also thank the members of the Scottish Youth Parliament who have spoken to me about single-use vapes on more than one occasion, and who really wanted to emphasise their concerns for their peers’ health and for the environment. It is a matter that concerns young people very much.

Carol Mochan, Alexander Stewart, Colin Smyth and others flagged up their concerns about young people’s health. Single-use vapes have, perhaps, become more of a pathway into smoking than a pathway out of smoking. With 5 million single-use vapes being discarded every week in the UK, it is hard to imagine that they are primarily being used by people who are trying to quit. I imagine that parents must be terrified that their children are becoming the next generation that will be addicted to nicotine.

Carol Mochan made a good point on data collection. Members should, please, be assured that I am working closely with the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health on the matter, so it is absolutely a cross-portfolio matter.

On the environmental side, Rona Mackay made good points about litter, and Emma Harper highlighted the waste of valuable lithium, which we know is so important for the transition to net zero, but is also potentially so dangerous if it is discarded irresponsibly. Last week, I met managers of waste facilities who made an emotional plea about the safety of their workers. Batteries have been implicated in 700 fires in bin lorries and recycling centres in the UK, which poses a serious danger to workers in the industry. The plea from those managers was that we take urgent action to protect workers’ safety.

Mercedes Villalba made excellent points about the litter on our streets. I see in my streets the same thing as Mercedes has observed in Dundee. Retailers are obliged to provide facilities for people who buy the vapes to return them to those retailers, or they must pay into a fund to provide recycling facilities for them. It is clear that retailers are not doing that—that work is not being undertaken—so, in addition to considering a consultation on a ban, we must look urgently at enforcement of the rules. Retailers need to be responsible and to ensure that vaping products are not ending up in the hands of children, and they need to ensure that they are meeting their obligations to provide adequate recycling.

Many members have highlighted the difficulty of recycling the materials when there is a battery embedded in a single-use plastic product. Single-use electronics are even worse than single-use plastics. We are too far along in the climate emergency to have new single-use plastic products. We have been working very hard to remove single-use plastics; many industries are working to do that, so this industry’s having created a whole new single-use plastic product, the numbers of which have tripled over the past couple of years, with serious environmental and human health issues, is a great concern to us.

I thank Stephanie Callaghan, Brian Whittle and Kenneth Gibson for highlighting the nature of some of the companies that are involved in the marketing, and the danger that the products pose to our children by those companies putting profits ahead of human and environmental health.

I want to reassure members that we are taking serious action on the matter. On Colin Smyth’s comments about the Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill, the bill is not actually required for us to take action on the matter; we already have the powers. We are looking at a range of options, but under our existing powers we can ban problematic single-use products if there is sufficient evidence of environmental harm. The enormous growth of single-use vaping products in recent years absolutely provides that evidence, so we can use those powers.

As Emma Harper pointed out, implementation of the powers could come into conflict with the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. However, yesterday I had a constructive meeting with my counterparts in the Welsh and UK Governments. We have agreed to work together on our approach, up to and including a ban. All the nations of the UK have in common the agreement to work together; of course, a common approach will be the most effective.

If a ban is where we are heading, it will take some time to work towards that, so we need in the meantime—as members have highlighted—to take other actions on enforcement, product design and marketing. I will be working with my counterparts in the other nations of the UK on that matter.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

It occurs to me that, if we get to where we want to be with a ban, we will have a problem with children who are already addicted to nicotine. What can we do, perhaps working with the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care, to address that issue?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I can give you the time back.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I take on board that point that we potentially have a serious public health problem of young people being addicted to nicotine. Let us work together—I hope cross-party, but certainly with my ministerial colleagues—on how we can address the issue. None of us wants a new generation who are addicted to nicotine or, potentially, to see numbers of smokers increasing, having reduced them so successfully, with the human health cost that that would bring.

The Scottish Government is committed to taking the necessary action as a priority, and I am encouraged by the debate that the actions that we take forward on the matter will be widely supported by colleagues across the chamber.

Again, I thank everyone who has participated in the debate today. I look forward to working with everyone on options up to and including a ban.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, minister. That concludes the debate. I suspend this meeting of Parliament until 2 o’clock.

13:45 Meeting suspended.

14:00 On resuming—

Social Justice

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The next item of business is portfolio questions, on social justice. I remind members who wish to ask a supplementary question that they should press their request-to-speak button or enter the letters RTS in the chat function during the relevant question.

Children in Temporary Accommodation (Dumfries and Galloway)

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to recent statistics showing that the number of children in Dumfries and Galloway living in temporary accommodation rose by 67 per cent between 2022 and 2023. (S6O-02504)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

The

number of households, and particularly children, in temporary accommodation in Scotland is too high. It is unacceptable and we are firmly committed to reducing it. In our response to the temporary accommodation task and finish group recommendations, which were published on 19 July, we said that we would work with councils to support the development of targeted plans to reduce temporary accommodation pressures. We provide councils with annual allocations of £8 million of rapid rehousing transition plan funding to support people into settled accommodation and £30.5 million for their work to prevent homelessness, with Dumfries and Galloway Council receiving over £950,000 in 2023-24.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

We have seen an increase of over 90 per cent in the number of open homelessness cases in Dumfries and Galloway, compared with 2019-20. The crisis is so bad that housing officers are placing people in caravans and 50 bed and breakfasts across the region. Why was the number of homes that were given grant funding in the year to the end of June as part of the affordable housing supply programme down by 22 per cent? Why is the number of affordable homes started in the region at its lowest level since 2016, when we have this crisis facing the region?

Surely that is going to make it worse.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

There are a series of measures. I will come back to the task and finish group recommendations, but one of the recommendations that came through, which we have responded to, was about acquisitions. We will be working in Dumfries and Galloway in that regard, and we will also be looking at allocation policies.

This morning, I had a meeting with the task and finish group on prevention. We are talking about what we can do in that regard. There are things that we do at the moment, working in Dumfries and Galloway, on prevention. In addition, resource planning assumptions of £106.148 million over five years have been allocated to Dumfries and Galloway. Some of the issues are about how we can maximise the spend on that, and there is flexibility in the programme to look at temporary accommodation in that regard. I am happy to meet Mr Smyth to discuss that further if needed.

Affordable Housing Supply Programme

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what impact its programme for government 2023-24 will have on the affordable housing supply programme. (S6O-02505)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

The

number of affordable homes that were completed in the latest year, to the end of March 2023, is the highest annual figure in more than two decades. The programme for government for 2023-24 reaffirms our commitment to invest £752 million this year towards the affordable housing supply programme. Since 2007, Scotland has seen over 40 per cent more affordable homes delivered per head of population than in England, and over 70 per cent more than in Wales. We will shortly publish a rural and islands housing action plan that is aimed at helping to retain and attract people in rural and island communities.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

Thanks to the SNP Government, Scotland builds 13.9 affordable and social homes per 10,000 people annually, compared with 9.7 in England and eight in Labour-run Wales. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said, affordable housing contributes to Scotland having the lowest poverty rates in Britain.

With the Tory cost of living crisis and Brexit pushing up the costs of materials and borrowing, how can the minister ensure that we continue to meet our challenging investment targets?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

The member is right. The current position is extremely difficult. The hard Brexit added to it and the economic mismanagement of the UK Government has obviously not helped the situation. We have seen construction inflation of around 15 to 20 per cent, including in the Stirling constituency, and that has caused soaring construction costs.

Despite that, the housing sector has done incredible work to deliver the highest annual rate of affordable homes since 2000. We are making £3.5 billion available in the current session of Parliament—members should remember that that £3.5 billion is being impacted by inflation construction as well—towards delivery of affordable and social homes. We recognise the need to keep pace with the demand for social housing and we are making more than £60 million available from this year’s £752 million budget to support the acquisition of properties to be brought into the affordable housing sector.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I was interested to hear both the minister’s and Colin Smyth’s spin on this topic, because new statistics published on Tuesday show that the number of affordable homes that were approved in the quarter between April and June has reached the lowest level in 10 years. Those are the facts. Why have SNP and Green ministers dropped their target for the number of affordable homes to be built during this parliamentary session?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

That target has not been dropped. During my summer tour, I went round most local authorities. I have also spoken to private builders and housing associations on this issue. The two main reasons that they give for the situation with approvals are to do with construction inflation—given the inflation rate in the United Kingdom—and additional borrowing costs, which, again, have been caused by the UK Government’s mismanagement. If Miles Briggs speaks to them, they will tell him exactly the same thing: construction inflation, inflation rates and borrowing costs are why things are slowing down.

Child Poverty (Universal Free School Meals)

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on progress with its “Tackling Child Poverty Delivery Plan”, including in relation to its commitment to pilot universal free school meals in secondary schools. (S6O-02506)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Our annual report on progress towards meeting the child poverty targets is published in June each year and will include updates on actions that have been taken on the delivery of the free school meals project.

Through the programme for government, we have recommitted to work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to prepare schools and infrastructure for the expansion of universal free school meal provision to primary 6 and primary 7 pupils during 2026. That will start with those who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment and will save families £400 per child per year on average.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

Back in 2021, ministers promised to expand universal free school meal support to all primary pupils in the first 100 days of this session of parliament. That expansion did not materialise, and this major delay to the manifesto commitment will make hungry children wait until 2026, if we are to believe the First Minister.

In addition to what the cabinet secretary said, when will we see detailed implementation plans around the timeline not just for P6 and P7 pupils, but for the pilot in secondary schools, which is also long overdue?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

During this parliamentary session, free school meals provision in primary 6 has expanded. As I stated, that will continue, through our commitment in the programme for government.

Monica Lennon is right to point to the Government’s commitment also to pilot free school meals in secondary schools. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills has met officials and engaged with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on that issue. The discussions will conclude and something will be made public in due course.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Is the cabinet secretary as frustrated as I am by the audacity of Scottish Labour, which criticises the steady roll-out of free school meals in Scotland despite the fact that such a pledge by United Kingdom Labour was one of those that were abandoned over the summer by Keir Starmer?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

It has been a bit difficult to keep up with the number of commitments—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Cabinet secretary, please resume your seat. If a member wishes to raise a point, they know how to do that. Otherwise, the floor is with the person who has the floor—that is the cabinet secretary.

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

It has been rather difficult to keep up with UK Labour’s changes in policy. That is concerning, because we in the Scottish Parliament fear what the impact might be on policies for Scottish Labour. This Government has reaffirmed its commitment to helping families through the roll-out of free school meals. It is a disappointment that the UK Labour leader, Keir Starmer, has refused to follow that example, and I hope that that is not now a slippery slope for Scottish Labour.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

My point earlier was that a question about

Labour Party policy was addressed to a cabinet secretary. I find that not to be in order. That is not why we have these sessions. [

Interruption

.]

The heckling from a sedentary position aside, I have in front of me the stats on school meals take-up. Why are they down on 2016?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to Stephen Kerr that, if he wishes to raise a point of order, he should do so; otherwise, he should just ask his question.

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I will be guided by you, Deputy Presiding Officer, rather than Stephen Kerr as to what is in order in the chamber. His concerns for young people and children are just crocodile tears from a Government and a member who back the rape clause, the benefit cap and recent cuts to universal credit, and who support tax cuts for the richest. I will take no lectures from Mr Kerr on how we try to provide support—as we already do—to children throughout Scotland.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

At your invitation, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would like to make the following point of order. I

s it in order for members of the Government party to ask the cabinet secretary questions about Labour Party policy, or any other party’s policy, as opposed to asking questions in relation to the stewardship that lies within the realm of those ministers?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I thank Mr Kerr for his contribution. As far as I recall, the question was related to the social justice portfolio and, indeed, the issues raised in the principal question of Ms Lennon. I am not responsible for the manner in which any particular Government minister seeks to answer a question, which is not a matter for the chair, but I was satisfied that the issue that was raised fell within the scope of the question in the

Business Bulletin

.

Social Security (Investment)

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what stakeholder input informed its decision to increase investment in social security. (S6O-02507)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

We regularly engage with a wide range of stakeholders. In 2023-24, we will invest £5.3 billion in social security benefits, which will reach 1.2 million people, with those figures rising to £7.4 billion and 2 million people in 2027-28.

Social security is a fundamental right, which is why we have established a radically different benefits system that is built on dignity, fairness and respect.

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

I am heartened to see the professional input that underpins the Scottish Government’s compassionate

and ambitious approach to social security, but I am painfully aware of how efforts to tackle poverty here are undermined by Westminster benefit cuts—which are now backed by not only Tories but Labour.

Does the cabinet secretary agree that it is likely that the Scottish welfare model will keep having to mitigate United Kingdom Government welfare policies in the years ahead, whether under Rishi Sunak’s blue Tories or Sir Keir Starmer’s red Tories? [

Interruption

.]

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I completely agree with the premise of the question. I hear by their reaction that both Labour and the Conservatives are uncomfortable at that line of questioning. [

Interruption

.] I am not surprised.

We have spent more than £1 billion mitigating the impacts of 13 years of UK Government policies such as the bedroom tax and the benefits cap—and the Conservatives do not like to hear about that. Meanwhile, the UK Government is steadily dismantling the welfare system across the UK and enforcing a sanctions regime that is punishing the poorest members of our society. That is exactly the opposite to how our dignity, fairness and respect system in Scotland works.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

I was slightly surprised by the part of the cabinet secretary’s answer that said that Social Security Scotland is “radically different” from the Department for Work and Pensions. With regard to the regulations that the Scottish Government has brought forward, will she tell me how adult disability payment, children’s benefits or any benefit that has so far been devolved to Scotland is radically different?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I do not have time to go through that in detail, but I would love to meet Mr Balfour to give him the full details. What I will say is that the client experience that is already being published in our surveys—[

Interruption

.].

If Mr Kerr is genuinely interested in the subject, he may wish to listen.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I did not say anything!

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members, please let the cabinet secretary respond.

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

We are radically different in our application process, in the way that we work with stakeholders to ensure that people are encouraged to come forward for the benefits and in making sure that we are delivering the right result, first time, which is very different from the appeals process that people are made to go through with the DWP and the barbaric personal independence payment process.

Those are a few examples, which I would be keen to elaborate on in a meeting with Mr Balfour in due course, should he wish to have one.

House-building Programme

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what analysis it has carried out of any barriers to achieving a national house-building programme for Scotland. (S6O-02508)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

The Scottish Government has set a clear ambition for the delivery of 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, with 70 per cent for social rent and 10 per cent in rural and island communities. We have well-established partnership working with local authorities, registered social landlords and the construction sector to ensure that we deliver the right homes in the right places.

As I mentioned earlier, Scotland has led the United Kingdom in providing affordable homes. Since 2007, Scotland has seen more than 40 per cent more affordable homes delivered per head of population than in England and more than 70 per cent more than in Labour-controlled Wales.

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I will quote Shelter Scotland director Alison Watson on the subject of how we in Scotland are progressing on housing. She said:

“The snail’s pace of delivery demonstrates clearly that the Scottish Government has got its priorities badly wrong and is neglecting social housing.

No minister can claim ignorance of what that means; it means more children with nowhere to call home, it means more people trapped in miserable temporary accommodation, and it means Scotland’s housing emergency continuing to devastate lives.”

Does the minister not agree that what we need is a national house-building programme that takes into account the land that needs to be made available, gives local authorities the power to give up that land—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr Rowley. We will move to the minister.

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

—and trains in the skills needed to build houses?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We will now move to the minister for the answer.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I have met Alison Watson twice this week, on Tuesday and Wednesday. I regularly meet her to discuss the issue.

This summer, I have been on a programme of visits to all 32 local authorities. The key point that has come through them all is that there are 32 different local solutions. I have visited Fife on a number of occasions and have met representatives there to talk about homelessness and the affordable housing supply programme. I invite Mr Rowley to ask me about those discussions.

We have made £180 million available for Fife in this parliamentary term, which was an increase of £35 million. Part of the discussions that I have had with the representatives from Fife has been about how we can maximise capacity and the pace of building there. There are other barriers relating to those issues.

The key point for me has been discussing with local authorities what they need on homelessness and house building. I will be happy to speak to Mr Rowley about the discussions that I have been having on those matters.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

Over the summer, the housing minister made an announcement of funding of £960,000 to support community housing trusts in rural and island areas. That is a welcome example of what is needed to boost progress towards Scotland’s ambitious housing goals. Will the minister say what role empowering local communities has in ensuring that we meet our affordable housing needs?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Earlier I mentioned the visits that I undertook over the summer. Last month, I had the pleasure of visiting Gairloch, where we launched that funding. We could see there the difference that community-led housing can make, and the local project was really driven by the community.

Community-led housing plays an important role in our broad approach to deliver more affordable homes in our rural and island areas. Many communities actively engage in pursuing projects in their own local areas, often supported by the rural and islands housing fund. That fund plays a critical role in supporting community organisations and others in implementing housing projects where they would otherwise be unable to access the mainstream affordable housing programme. The key point is to give them the capacity to drive projects forward on their own.

The recently announced core funding support will enable the Communities Housing Trust and South of Scotland Community Housing to continue to provide advice and support to communities.

Welfare Spending (Aberdeen City Council)

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

6. To ask the Scottish Government how much it has spent in the last five years, within the Aberdeen City Council area, to mitigate any effect of United Kingdom Government welfare policy. (S6O-02509)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Over the past five years, including this fiscal year, the Scottish Government has spent more than £733 million to mitigate UK Government welfare policies.

Although we are unable to break that down by local authority area, over the past five years we have invested £17.2 million in the Aberdeen City Council region, through the Scottish welfare fund and discretionary housing payments, to mitigate, among other things, the bedroom tax, the benefit cap and the local housing allowance. Additional funding has been made available through universal credit Scottish choices and advice services. Some £11 million has also been provided through the Scottish child payment.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

Would the cabinet secretary agree that the £84 million per year spent on discretionary housing payments could make a huge difference in supporting folk through the cost of living crisis if it were not being spent on mitigating the UK Government’s cruellest policies?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

It is frustrating that in 2023-24, the UK Government plans to spend £100 million on discretionary housing payments for England and Wales, whereas Scotland, which has a tenth of the population of those countries, will spend more than £80 million. If we did not have to spend that money on mitigating the UK Government’s cruel policies, it could be used to further our national mission to tackle poverty. I suggest that that shows that the UK welfare system—if not the UK itself—is not fit for purpose.