Scottish Parliament, 11 May 2023

250 contributions from 66 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning. Our first item of business is general question time.

Gender Pay Gap

David Torrance (Scottish National Party, Kirkcaldy)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to reduce the gender pay gap. (S6O-02220)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Figures from the Office for National Statistics for 2022 show that the median gender pay gap for all employees in Scotland, both full and part-time, is below the United Kingdom gap—as it has been since 1997—at 12.2 per cent, versus 14.9 per cent. The median gap for full-time employees in 2022 is particularly positive, at 3.7 per cent, compared with an 8.3 per cent gap in the rest of the UK.

We are not complacent and know that more work is required.

Last December, we published a refreshed fair work action plan, which integrates tackling the gender pay gap with addressing the wider intersecting inequalities that are faced by women in Scotland’s labour market. Between 2021 and 2024, we will also provide funding of up to £700,000 to Close the Gap to change employment practices and workplace cultures in order to tackle the gender pay gap in Scotland.

David Torrance (Scottish National Party, Kirkcaldy)

Has the Scottish Government made a recent assessment of the potential merits of introducing compulsory gender pay gap reporting?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank David Torrance for raising that important issue. Although employment law is reserved, the Scottish Government has repeatedly called on the UK Government to reduce the reporting threshold of 250 employees and to mandate employers to produce action plans in response to the Equality Act 2010 (Gender Pay Gap Information) Regulations 2017.

Our fair work policy promotes fairer work practices across Scotland and aims to tackle workplace inequality for women by addressing the key drivers of gender pay gaps across the labour market. Among other criteria, our fair work first approach to public sector spending asks employers to tackle gender pay gaps and to offer flexible working from day 1 of employment, and has been applied to £4 billion-worth of public sector funding since 2019.

The proportion of women employees aged 18 and over who are earning the real living wage or more has also increased from 83.9 per cent in 2021 to 89.7 per cent in 2022, which continues the upward trend since 2018. It is really important—

The Presiding Officer

Cabinet secretary, may I stop you there? I am keen to get through as many members as possible and would be grateful if we could have short and succinct questions and responses.

On that note, I call Beatrice Wishart.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Across Scotland, social carers can earn more by working in a German-owned supermarket than they can in the Scottish Government-run healthcare service. That does not help to close the gender pay gap, which is a tax on families, and structural sexism in society perpetuates the issue. When will the Scottish Government look holistically at the reasons for and causes of the gender pay gap in order to tackle the issue?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

That is an important question. Closing not only the gender pay gap but the gender employment gap is not only the right thing to do but gives us a huge opportunity to engender better economic growth.

It is recognised that increasing pay for the social care workforce would make a positive contribution to our commitment to reduce the gender pay gap. Improvement of pay and conditions for the adult social care workforce, which is 85 per cent female, is a priority for the Scottish Government. We continue to make progress in our work to improve that situation. For example, from April this year, adult social care workers who deliver direct care to commissioned services will see their pay increasing to a minimum of £10.90 per hour, in line with the real living wage rate for the 2023-24 financial year.

Prosecution of Criminal Cases

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what measures can be taken to accelerate the prosecution of criminal cases. (S6O-02221)

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Decisions about individual prosecutions are matters for the independent Lord Advocate.

However, the Scottish Government is working with its criminal justice partners across a range of initiatives, both to reduce the overall time that cases take from start to finish and to improve people’s experience of the process. That will build on the successful introduction during Covid of new, more flexible and efficient, approaches to delivery of justice services and of use of digital technologies to streamline processes.

Furthermore, the Scottish Government has a strong track record on court investment and we continue to prioritise supporting justice partners to address the backlog, with a further £42.2 million budget being allocated in the 2023-24 budget.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I thank the cabinet secretary for her answer. As the main witness in a trial for threatening behaviour to me, I had to give evidence on incidents spanning from 2017 to 2020, the trial having been deferred from 2022 to earlier this year. The case against Peter Morris was found to be not proven. No one can determine that the outcome was due to delays in prosecution, but what data is there regarding a possible connection between delays in the prosecution process and conviction rates?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I agree whole-heartedly with Ms Grahame that justice is not best served by delays. That is why the recovery programme that is funded by the Scottish Government has seen the court backlog in summary cases fall by 37 per cent. We continue to invest £26 million in the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service, which is confident that the summary backlog will be cleared by March 2024.

In relation to data that connects the processes and convictions, I will have to seek further information on the matter, but I point Ms Grahame to the fact that, for the first time, the Scottish Government’s justice analytical services is now publishing end-to-end journey times—from the start to the end of people’s justice journeys. That will give us far more detail, transparency and scrutiny to ensure that the investments that we are making are, indeed, delivering justice on the ground.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

Justice delayed is, of course, justice denied. Many solemn cases in the High Court are taking up to four years to reach court. Survivors report self-harm, depression, anxiety and even attempted suicide, so it is clear that something is not working. What analysis has been done of why cases are taking so long? When will the horrendous court backlog finally be cleared?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Mr Greene raises a very important point of crucial detail. Although we have seen significant reductions in the backlogs in summary cases, he is quite correct to point to the on-going challenges with solemn and High Court cases, and w

e know that that trend in cases coming forward, particularly to the High Court, is likely to continue.

That is why, in relation to the recovery programme, we have refocused our endeavours and investments on solemn proceedings and the High Court. For example, the criminal justice board agreed to create two additional High Court courts and six additional sheriff solemn courts from April 2023. That is on top of the additional High Court and sheriff solemn courts that were established in 2021.

I will, of course, keep Parliament updated.

Water Safety Action Plan (Lifeboat Provision in Arbroath)

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is, regarding any implications for its water safety action plan, on future lifeboat provision in Arbroath, in light of reported concerns expressed by the local community about the service. (S6O-02222)

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

The Scottish Government greatly values and appreciates the work of staff and volunteers at the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, who work alongside other emergency services to provide a vital service in saving lives around Scotland’s extensive coastline. The RNLI played a key role in the creation of our water safety action plan and it continues to do so through its work with Water Safety Scotland.

The RNLI operates as an independent charity across the United Kingdom and any decisions on operational matters are rightly made by the institution.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I thank the minister for that answer, but it would be hard to overstate the anger in Arbroath over the RNLI’s decision to downgrade the town’s lifeboat station, especially as the community has contributed millions of pounds for the construction of an all-weather lifeboat. The fear is that the decision could compromise the safety of the crew or reduce operational capability, particularly in rough seas.

I appreciate the limitations that the Scottish Government is under, but does the minister share the community’s concern? Will the Government encourage the RNLI to enter a dialogue with the lifeboat crew, local volunteers and the wider community to find a solution?

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

The Scottish Government takes water safety very seriously. It welcomed the publication in 2018 of Water Safety Scotland’s “Scotland’s Drowning Prevention Strategy 2018-2026”. The Scottish Government continues to provide funding, via the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, to support the operation of Water Safety Scotland, of which RNLI is a key member. We work closely with Water Safety Scotland and other partners to support the recommendations in its drowning prevention strategy, and to support initiatives to raise awareness of the hazards around water and to reduce deaths from accidental drowning. However, as I said in my previous answer, decisions on operational matters are, rightly, made by RNLI.

Net Zero Targets for Tree Planting (Finance)

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

4. To ask the Scottish Government, prior to the signing by the Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity of the memorandum of understanding between NatureScot and financial partners, how much financing it had identified would be required to meet its net zero targets for tree planting. (S6O-02223)

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

Research by the Green Finance Institute in 2021 estimated that, to meet our desired outcomes, there is a finance gap of £1.3 billion for woodland creation and maintenance in Scotland up to 2031. The memorandum of understanding between NatureScot and its financial partners represents an important step in bridging that and the wider nature-related outcomes finance gap, and will ensure that private financing is used in line with our interim principles for responsible investment in natural capital.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I did not hear the answer. How much is needed to reach the net zero target for tree planting? What is the actual amount?

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I apologise if Edward Mountain did not hear me. Maybe I did not say it clearly enough. The figure is £1.3 billion.

Climate Emergency (Involvement of Financial Sector)

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what action is being taken to ensure that Scotland’s financial sector plays its role in tackling our climate emergency. (S6O-02224)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

As the previous question and answer made clear, responsible private investment is crucial to delivering net zero. Given the scale of the transition that is required, there are real and growing opportunities for green financial services. In pursuit of those opportunities, Scottish ministers engage regularly with the financial services industry via the Financial Services Growth and Development Board.

Building on Scotland’s commitment to a just transition to net zero, we established the Scottish task force for green and sustainable financial services, which is chaired by David Pitt Watson. The task force is working on positioning Scotland as a leading global contender for green and sustainable finance that will maximise the economic and employment benefits for all.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

It is welcome news that the most recent edition of the global green finance index has shown Scotland rising through the rankings in green finance. Two Scottish cities feature in that index, compared with just one financial centre in England.

What assessment has been made of those findings, and what steps are being taken to build on that progress?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

Audrey Nicoll is absolutely right to reflect on the fact that our financial services industry is making great progress, and to pull out the figures that demonstrate that both Edinburgh and Glasgow rose in April’s edition of

the global green finance index

.

Edinburgh moved up eight places to number 14, and Glasgow moved up seven places to number 46.

Given the scale of the opportunity, we are absolutely clear that Scotland must seize the momentum. Our task force for green and sustainable financial services is developing a road map that will identify areas in which we can build on deep specialisms to compete globally in green finance and, through Scottish Financial Enterprise’s five-year strategy, the industry has made financing the journey to net zero a critical priority.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

Is the Scottish Government merely facilitating big profits for the private financial sector and international companies through exploiting Scotland’s resources and potential?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

The answer is a resounding no. The Scottish Government is absolutely clear, noting that the finance gap that Gillian Martin referred to in the context of tree planting stands at around £20 billion for overall natural capital. We know that activities such as afforestation and peatland restoration contribute massively to our net zero targets. We also know that there is a significant gap in funding and that the public sector could never be expected to meet that alone. That is why we are working on this. We have developed the interim principles for responsible investment in natural capital, which means that, although investment is welcome, it must be responsible, work with communities, be additional and verifiable and have integrity.

Bus Travel (National Entitlement Card Scheme)

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what action it has taken to promote free bus travel through the national entitlement card scheme, particularly among people with a qualifying social security entitlement. (S6O-02225)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I am proud that we are investing £300 million annually to provide the most generous concessionary travel schemes in the United Kingdom. Last year, we delivered a national marketing campaign increasing awareness of free bus travel for under-22s, with two thirds of young people now joined and more than 62 million journeys made. I was also pleased this week to mark the delivery of the choose the bus campaign with the bus industry.

Transport Scotland is working with Social Security Scotland to ensure that clear processes are in place for people with qualifying benefits and I would encourage anyone who is eligible to apply.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

Support for people who qualify for social security entitlement, particularly disabled people, is vital. That cover also extends to a carer in receipt of free bus travel where it is required. Has the Government made any representations to the Department for Work and Pensions regarding the fact that many people transferring on to adult disability payment from personal independence payment seem to be unaware of that, in order to ensure that everyone in Scotland who is entitled to that support gets it?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

As I said, earlier this week I met bus industry officials in Galashiels about phase 2 of our choose the bus marketing campaign, which has a clear focus on concessionary travel. I said in my initial answer that we are working with Social Security Scotland to ensure that clear processes are in place. I say to Ms Adamson that we will try to extend that and see whether we can do similar with the DWP. I hope that the DWP will co-operate as much as Social Security Scotland has.

Swallow Roundabout in Dundee (Transport Scotland)

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with Transport Scotland regarding the Swallow roundabout in Dundee. (S6O-02226)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

The Scottish Government has not held any recent discussions with Transport Scotland regarding the Swallow roundabout in Dundee. I can advise that officials are in continued discussions with the developer of the adjacent Dykes of Gray Road development site. Those discussions are to finalise the legal and operational aspects for changes at the A90 trunk road Swallow roundabout, which the developer is required to make under conditions to their planning consent. Those are legal and commercial matters for the developer to progress and finalise before advising Transport Scotland.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

I am afraid that that is quite a disappointing answer from the minister. His predecessor took an active interest in the issue and brought Transport Scotland to the table to try and conclude the process, which has dragged on for more than a decade. Can the minister give some reassurance to the community that he will take a similar interest to that of his predecessor? What lessons can he draw for Transport Scotland and his Government about the failure of this project to be delivered?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

My officials will continue to work constructively with the developer, but the ball is in their court. We want to progress this and the outstanding issues and conclude the minute of agreement as soon as possible. Mr FitzPatrick is the constituency MSP—[

Inaudible.

]

The Presiding Officer

If you could give me one moment, minister. Can we have the minister’s microphone, please?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I want to see the issue progressed, but the developer needs to move on this, too. My officials will continue to work constructively with them to see that that happens.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes general questions.

National Care Service (Costs)

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. The Parliament’s Finance and Public Administration Committee called for updated costs for the Scottish National Party Government’s controversial plans for a centralised care service to be given to it this week. Humza Yousaf’s Government has refused. The previous estimate of the costs for the centralised care service was £1.3 billion. However, after that figure came out, Audit Scotland said that

“it is likely that the overall cost of the measures will be significantly above the amounts currently assessed.”

Will the First Minister tell us now how much the service will really cost Scottish taxpayers?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

First and foremost, let us not forget why we have introduced the national care service legislation: it is to end the postcode lottery of inconsistency of care that we all accept exists up and down the country. We want to introduce a system that ensures that we put fair work principles and people who need care at the very heart of the national care service.

I point out to Douglas Ross that the Opposition, quite rightly, asked the Scottish Government to ensure that we engaged with local authorities and our trade union colleagues—[

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

I am sorry, First Minister. Before we go any further, I would be grateful if members could treat each other with courtesy and respect.

The First Minister

It is hardly a surprise that the Tories groan when I mention fair work principles and working with trade union colleagues. Douglas Ross was one of the first to call for us to pause the national care service legislation so that we could engage with local government and trade unions. We are doing so in the hope of finding a level of compromise on the legislation that will allow us to proceed with it with an element of consensus. What that compromise is will then determine whether there will be any changes to the financial memorandum. One we have had that intensive engagement over the course of the summer we will return to Parliament and ensure that a revised financial memorandum is published. [

Applause

.]

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The muted applause from SNP members has not got any better since last week. It is no wonder, because the answers have not got any better, either. The First Minister suggests that there might be additional costs, whereas Audit Scotland was very clear that the figure of £1.3 billion

will not be the final cost—it will be higher. From that feeble answer, which did not address the point, it turns out that the First Minister has no idea what it will be.

The First Minister is throwing public money away when front-line social care services are in desperate need of more funding. The SNP Government could be investing to improve local care services; instead, it is creating a bureaucratic nightmare, and it wants a blank cheque to enable it to do so. It has already wasted £14 million on the plans and spent £1.9 million on consultants. However, the plans are not advancing, there are no signs of progress and the legislation has been repeatedly delayed. Is the First Minister paying consultants a fortune to tell him what everyone else knows—that his plans are woeful and will not work?

The First Minister

It is hardly a surprise that a national care service plan that puts fair work, sectoral bargaining and ethical commissioning at the heart of it is wholly opposed by the Conservative Party. That is hardly a surprise to anyone in the chamber, our trade union colleagues or the people of Scotland.

Why are we bringing forward a national care service? We are doing that because we know of the extreme challenges that people who work in social care face because of workforce issues. That is the biggest challenge that social care providers face. One of the fundamental reasons for such workforce challenges is the hard Brexit that was imposed on us by a United Kingdom Government. Once again, the Scottish Government is having to pick up the pieces—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

The First Minister

Once again, the Scottish Government is having to mitigate the woeful decisions that have been made by a cruel Tory Government. How are we doing that? Yes, we are committed to spend on the national care service, but we have also ensured that there is an additional £100 million to provide a pay uplift from April this year, which represents a 14.7 per cent increase for those workers over the past two years.

When I was health secretary, I was proud to have ensured that there was not just one, not just two, but three pay uplifts for our adult social care workers. We want to go further where we can.

We have committed to invest in social care right now to undo some of the damage that was done by the Conservatives’ hard Brexit. At the same time, we are absolutely committed to our plans for a national care service that will ensure that fair work is at the very heart of any future care service.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

You would not have guessed it from that answer, but my question was actually about spending almost £2 million on consultants on the proposal. However, the First Minister failed to address that in his answer.

The plans are such a mess that his social care minister, Maree Todd, who is sat in the chamber just now, said this week:

“it has been a little hard for me to get my head around”.—[

Official Report

,

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

, 9 May 2023; c 12.]

The plans are a bit hard for the minister in charge to get her head around—First Minister, she is talking about your plans. Before Humza Yousaf failed upwards, he was not just the health secretary but cabinet secretary for social care—he wrote these shambolic plans. What does it say about the First Minister’s policy if his own care minister does not understand them?

The First Minister

It just goes to show how desperate Douglas Ross is when he starts with personal attacks on me or any of my colleagues—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members—

The First Minister

Those are not attacks on policy or substance, but personal attacks from the man who is, of course, the least popular elected politician on these islands by any poll estimation—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

The best retort that Douglas Ross has is that I am catching him up, but he is still the most unpopular leader and elected politician in this country by a country mile.

On consultancy spending, which is an important point, the Scottish Government and our officials are absolutely focused on making the national care service work, but it is important that we bring in the additional technical and specialist expertise that allows us to ensure that we make progress on the legislation.

On the question on finances around the national care service, which is a very legitimate question, we will, as I have said, engage with trade unions and local government, and when we reach a compromise—as I hope that we will—on the national care service, we will come back with a revised financial memorandum .

I will hardly take any lectures on financial literacy—neither will any minister in my Government—from Douglas Ross, who demanded that this Government copy Liz Truss’s tax cuts, which would have cost the Scottish Government £500 million and caused economic carnage to our public finances.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

That is absolutely hopeless from the First Minister. He said that quoting his own minister was a desperate tactic by me. Listening to that answer, I am pretty sure that

Maree Todd still cannot get her head around the policy or the costings, because it is quite clear that the First Minister cannot.

This is all starting to look like another Humza Yousaf disaster. The man who could not get the trains to run on time, forced police officers to breaking point and left our national health service in crisis is now doing his best to throw social care into chaos as well. He does not know whether he is building a national care service or a white elephant.

Humza Yousaf has no idea how much this centralised care service will cost, when this bureaucratic nightmare will be ready or how it will improve the situation for people who desperately need better care. The very last thing that our struggling care service needs when its front line is being starved of cash is an administrative overhaul costing billions of pounds.

Will Humza Yousaf do the right thing, stop wasting taxpayers’ money and scrap the plans altogether?

The First Minister

It is quite incredible that when we give a pay uplift to adult social care workers, Douglas Ross describes it as a waste of money. Every penny that we spend on social care is ensuring that we lift standards for adult social care workers and for those people who are in receipt of care. While we do that, yes, we build a national care service that has fair work and ethical commissioning at its heart, so that the profits from care are not just gleaned away into bank accounts in the Cayman islands—which is something that the Conservatives would, of course, like to see—and a national care service that has sectoral bargaining at its very heart. That is what we are committed to.

All of that is happening in the midst of the more than a decade of austerity that we have had from Douglas Ross’s Conservatives. We have also had a hard Brexit imposed on us and, of course, the disaster of the mini-budget, in relation to which, if we had listened to Douglas Ross and gone ahead with tax cuts for the wealthiest, our budget would be worth £500 million less. Therefore, I will take no lectures about financial literacy, or for standing up for people who work in our care service, from Douglas Ross and the Conservatives.

Interest Rates

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. It has just been announced that interest rates will go up again, which will mean higher mortgages. That is all because of Tory economic chaos. That comes in the same week that the Scottish National Party launched its campaign for another Tory Government. [

Interruption

.] Therefore, I ask the First Minister to put aside his party’s self-interest and be honest—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

SNP members do not like the truth, Presiding Officer.

I ask the First Minister to put aside his party’s self-interest and be honest. What is better for Scotland: a Labour Government or a Tory Government?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

What is best for Scotland is independence, of course, because then we will have the powers in our own hands. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you.

The First Minister

It is exceptionally brave of Anas Sarwar to go on that topic, this week of all weeks, because what we have with the Labour Party

’s

Keir Starmer is someone who has refused to reverse every single measure of Tory austerity. What we have with Keir Starmer is an individual who has reneged on his promise to abolish tuition fees for students in England and who, just yesterday, refused to repeal cruel Tory legislation such as the Illegal Migration Bill.

Scotland does not need cruel, harmful policies imposed on it, whether that is done by a politician who wears a blue tie or a politician who wears a red tie. What Scotland needs is the full powers of an independent nation, so that we can chart our own course and get out of this unequal and broken union.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

There you have it, Presiding Officer. He cannot answer the question. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you. I am sorry, Mr Sarwar.

We have visitors, who have gathered to hear the questions and answers, and we have people tuned in across the nation, who are also keen to do so. Although I appreciate members’ passion and interest, I would be grateful if we could try to behave ourselves with decorum.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

I think that you should be softer with SNP members, Presiding Officer—it is the first time that they have shown life in weeks. We should appreciate the SNP back benchers.

Is it not amazing that they have shown life when it comes to attacking the Labour Party? We have a governing party that is under investigation by the police; sexual misconduct allegations; whistleblowers being silenced; and division on the back benches. There is only one party that looks like the Tories, and it is not us—it is the SNP.

The First Minister is so out of touch that he insults the intelligence of people across Scotland. Labour would deliver a new deal for working people and scrap the Tory anti-trade union laws. Labour would deliver a publicly owned energy company, which the SNP promised but has failed to deliver. Labour would make Scotland a research and development powerhouse, rather than imposing SNP cuts on universities. Labour would bring down people’s bills with a proper windfall tax, which the SNP and the Tories do not support. That is the change that Scotland needs.

I know that the First Minister is still trying to find his feet and that the job can be quite confusing for him. Is it not the case that he prefers a Tory Government, because it is cover for his own incompetence?

The First Minister

I will say what the SNP is interested in. We are not interested in getting rid of the Tories just for a little while; we want to get rid of Tory Governments for ever, and the way that we do that is, of course, by voting for independence. We do not want to replace Tory with Tory-lite or with a pale imitation of the Tories. We know that Keir Starmer is lurching to the right. The Labour Party is little more than a Conservative tribute act.

Just last week, Labour committed to keeping the Tories’ anti-protest legislation in place. On tuition fees, Keir Starmer has done a Nick Clegg and ditched his pledge to make university education free.

We are absolutely committed to progressive taxation—the Scottish Government is leading the way on progressive taxation. What does Keir Starmer say about income tax for the top 5 per cent of earners? He said:

“we are in a different situation now ... I think we’ve got the highest tax burden since world war two.”

What about railways? Starmer was, of course, previously committed to nationalising the railways. Now he says of water, rail and other services:

“I take a pragmatic approach rather than an ideological one.”

I say to Anas Sarwar that we are prepared to work with any political party in order to keep the Tories out of number 10. Why is Keir Starmer refusing to work with the Scottish National Party in order to keep the Tories out of number 10? We are the most progressive party on these islands. I say to Anas Sarwar that I do not want to be rid of Tory Governments just for one year, five years or one election cycle; we want to be rid of Tory Governments in Scotland for good.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Yet again, the First Minister is more interested in attacking Labour than in getting rid of a Tory Government. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

It is really interesting that the First Minister did not want to talk about poll ratings with me. Why? His approval rating is minus 12. Twenty-two per cent of people say that he is competent; 40 per cent say that he is incompetent. Eighteen per cent say that he is trustworthy; 42 per cent say that he is untrustworthy. Nineteen per cent say that he is strong; 39 per cent say that he is weak. Nineteen per cent say that he is doing well; 44 per cent say that he is doing badly. Best of all is this: 9 per cent say that he is better than his predecessor; 41 per cent say that he is worse than his predecessor. He is a pale imitation of Nicola Sturgeon. I am not sure whether that is a compliment any more.

The SNP and the Tories are two sides of the same coin. Both want division, both want chaos, both want to damage Labour and both want a Tory Government. It is all about saving their jobs—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

—

and not acting in the interests of the people of Scotland.

Scotland is desperate for change and desperate to get rid of two failing Governments—an economically illiterate and morally bankrupt Tory party and a dysfunctional and incompetent SNP Government. [

Interruption

.] If people want change and want lower bills, more money in their pockets, the end of fire and rehire, the transformation of workers’ rights, the creation of thousands of jobs—

The Presiding Officer

Mr Sarwar, I am sorry to disrupt this session further, but members are doing a very good job on that account. I would be grateful if members could remember the basic rules of the code of conduct, which require that we conduct ourselves with courtesy and respect. I am seeing little of that, and that is not continuing.

Mr Sarwar, please put your question to the First Minister.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

SNP members do not like it. Change is coming, and they do not like that they have been found out and that they are plummeting. They do not like putting more money into people’s pockets through a proper windfall tax. They do not like ending fire and rehire and scrapping the anti-trade union laws. They do not like creating tens of thousands of new jobs.

The Presiding Officer

Question, Mr Sarwar.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Surely even the First Minister can see that Scotland needs change and that it can be delivered only by a Labour Government.

The First Minister

Presiding Officer, I am grateful that you stepped in to save the branch manager of the Scottish Labour Party.

The reason why Scotland will not trust Keir Starmer, of course, is that he is a born-again Brexiteer. It should be remembered that Brexit has caused economic devastation to this country. Anas Sarwar said that he wants a changing relationship with the European Union. We want a relationship with the EU that means that Scotland is back in the European Union—that we rejoin it. The only way in which to do that is, of course, as an independent nation and country.

Here is the real proof of the fact that Keir Starmer’s Labour Party has lurched to the right again. The very first major speaking event that I went to as First Minister was at the Scottish Trades Union Congress. Anas Sarwar was there. One person who was not invited was Keir Starmer. Dundee Trades Union Council brought forward a motion that condemned Keir Starmer’s actions and behaviours. Labour members might well be led by someone who is named after the founder of the Labour Party, but if Keir Hardie could see the state that the Labour Party is in now, he would be birling in his grave.

Disposable Vaping Products

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Government will consider a full ban on disposable vaping products on health and environmental grounds. (S6F-02109)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We will give that consideration. Littering of any kind is, of course, unacceptable, and I share Gillian Mackay’s concerns about the environmental impact of single-use vapes, not to mention their increased use among children and young people, who should not have access to them in the first place.

The Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity has asked Zero Waste Scotland to examine the environmental impact of such products and consider options to tackle the issue. The review is considering a range of possible options, including a ban. Our future approach will be informed by the findings of the review, but I should make it quite clear that we take the use of such products very seriously and that nothing is off the table at this stage.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

I look forward to the publication of the report that was commissioned by the minister.

Vaping has serious environmental and health impacts. That is why campaigners such as Less Waste Laura, the

Daily Record

and a growing number of councils have highlighted those harms. I thank them all for their work.

A full ban on disposable vapes is needed, but does the First Minister agree that there is much that can be done to reduce harm ahead of a full ban, such as keeping the products away from public view—as is the case with cigarettes—raising awareness of the legal purchase age and highlighting disposable return points? Will the First Minister join me in calling on retailers to step up to the plate and implement those measures?

The First Minister

Yes, I join the member in that call. We are keen to work constructively with retailers in that regard. I understand the many concerns about both the environmental and the health impacts of single-use vapes that have been raised by campaigners, including Less Waste Laura, as Gillian Mackay mentioned, and by our local government colleagues. I know that they also take the issue extremely seriously, and about 15 councils have now called for a ban.

Those concerns, as well as the issues that the member raised around retailers’ responsibilities, are being looked at in detail by the minister for the circular economy and by the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health as part of the review of the environmental impacts and in our refreshed tobacco action plan, which will be published in the autumn. That plan will include further action on education but also, crucially, on enforcement. I will keep the member updated on the publication of that strategy.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

Thanks to the work of local campaigners, in February this year, Dundee City Council supported banning disposable vapes and called for a national ban from the Scottish Government. As there is already local support for such a ban, what consideration has the Scottish Government given to introducing a pilot ban on disposable vapes in Dundee to help to develop a model for a national ban?

The First Minister

That is very worthy of consideration. As I referenced in my previous response, about 15 councils have called for a ban, but I am not surprised to see Scottish National Party-led Dundee City Council leading the way in that regard.

I am more than happy to consider a potential pilot, but it is important that the work that we have initiated through the review is allowed to happen. I will ensure that that work is published and that we take immediate action, because this issue is of growing concern due to the environmental and health impacts.

Youth Navigator Programme (St John’s Hospital)

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s position is on the view of the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland that NHS Lothian should review its children’s rights impact assessment of the decision to end the youth navigator programme, which operates at St John’s hospital. (S6F-02098)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The hospital youth navigator pilot will continue to be delivered by Medics Against Violence and national health service partners at the Queen Elizabeth hospital for children in Glasgow alongside the adult navigator programme in nine hospitals across Scotland.

Navigators are key support workers who help individuals presenting at hospitals with multiple complex needs to access those support services. I understand that no decision about future funding has yet been taken and that NHS Lothian is evaluating all its youth work provision in hospitals, including the pilot to which Fiona Hyslop refers. NHS Lothian has confirmed that a children’s rights and wellbeing impact assessment will be undertaken on the proposed options. A final report is expected to be discussed at the children and young people’s programme board at the end of this month.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

As the First Minister has acknowledged, the youth navigator programme is supported by Medics Against Violence, which has announced that funding will end at the end of June. It offers a youth work-based community outreach service to vulnerable young people aged 12 to 16, accessed at the time of presentation at St John’s hospital in West Lothian as well as at the sick kids hospital in Edinburgh.

Having debated a trauma-informed approach to services only on Tuesday in this chamber, does the First Minister acknowledge that preventative youth work such as that offered by the successful youth navigator programme should be supported, not withdrawn, that a full impact assessment would have flagged up that adverse childhood experiences often present as a crisis on hospital presentation, and that early support and intervention, actioned quickly, can be most effective?

The First Minister

Fiona Hyslop makes an important point to which I fully subscribe, particularly due to my previous roles in justice and health. Taking a preventative, trauma-informed approach through the navigators programme can make and has made a difference to young people in NHS Lothian. I value the importance of the service. Fiona Hyslop is absolutely correct in saying that the most effective way to deal with those issues is to take a trauma-informed and preventative approach. In my previous answer, I said that those matters are under review. When it comes to the final decision on the provision of youth services in NHS Lothian, there has been confirmation that a children’s rights and wellbeing impact assessment will be undertaken. I will ensure that the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care will make representations to NHS Lothian on the important issues that Fiona Hyslop has raised.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

Scrapping that service will have a devastating effect on vulnerable children and young people across the Lothian region. The Queen Elizabeth hospital is hardly accessible. Many other youth worker services have lost funding and statutory services, such as child and adolescent mental health services, are at breaking point. Cutting back on youth work is the wrong course of action and will simply store up problems for the future. So often, we hear about a preventative approach being championed by the Scottish Government, and the navigators programme takes exactly that approach, so why are we even considering cutting it?

The First Minister

I agree with the approach in relation to preventative funding. The Government has funded Medics Against Violence—an excellent organisation that I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of times over the years—to the tune of £337,000 in this financial year. It delivers a variety of violence prevention activities, and its core activity is to support the national hospital navigator programme.

I go back to my answer to Fiona Hyslop. NHS Lothian is reviewing its decision and is looking at youth service provision in the round. It will do that important impact assessment that Fiona Hyslop has called for. I am more than happy for the Government to make representations to NHS Lothian on the back of what has been said in the chamber, but ultimately, it will be a decision for NHS Lothian to take and I would expect it to do the full impact assessment in that regard.

Colleges and Universities (Support)

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

5. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to support colleges and universities in Scotland. (S6F-02100)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Colleges and universities make a crucial and unique contribution to Scotland. We are investing nearly £2 billion in that sector each year through the Scottish Funding Council and, where possible, we make that funding flexible. I recognise the challenges and pressures that colleges and universities are currently facing. We will continue to engage with the Scottish Funding Council as well as the sector directly to ensure that institutions are financially stable.

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

Two weeks ago, the Scottish National Party Government took a dagger to the heart of colleges and universities by cutting £46 million from funding that had been announced only in December, with no warning and no consultation. When the Scottish budget was announced, the Scottish Government trumpeted a £12.7 million increase for higher education. Five months on from the budget announcement, £7.3 million in cash has been cut between financial years.

Since then, I have also received a letter from the City of Glasgow College stating its intention to begin the process of 75 compulsory redundancies. Despite claiming that education was her number 1 priority, the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon failed Scotland’s young people. What is the First Minister going to do to prevent history from repeating itself?

The First Minister

If it comes back to the question of the former First Minister’s record, I remind the member that there are more young people from areas of deprivation who are going to university now than there ever were before. That is down to the legacy of Nicola Sturgeon. We are closing the poverty-related attainment gap because of the actions of the former First Minister.

We have had to make some difficult decisions on the savings that we have had to make. I am not going to downplay the significance and the effects that those savings will have on the college and university sector. However, I will put that into some context: the cuts that we made were 2.3 per cent of the £2 billion budget for further and higher education in 2023-24. Why did we have to make that saving? We had to do that because, rightly, every party in the chamber demanded that the Scottish Government intervene and help to assist local government to settle the teachers’ pay dispute. An additional £320 million had to be found in order to do that. That does not grow on the proverbial magic money tree, so tough decisions had to be made—we were up front about that.

We will take the tough decisions and we certainly will not take lectures from a Conservative member. The Conservative Party’s actions are the reason why we face financial constraints on the Scottish public finances. I remind Pam Gosal that, because of sky-high inflation as a result of decisions that the Conservative Government took, our Scottish finances were worth £1.7 billion less at peak inflation last year. That was because of the economic carnage that her party inflicted on Scotland.

Yes, we will take the tough decisions that are needed, but we will certainly not take any lectures on financial and economic literacy from the Conservative Party.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Sally Mapstone, who is the head of Universities Scotland, has described the SNP Government’s policy on universities as “managed decline”. Why does the First Minister think that the multimillion-pound cut to the universities budget will reverse that managed decline?

The First Minister

I do not agree with that characterisation. In the coming weeks, months and years, I will be more than happy to meet Dame Sally Mapstone—and other university and college principals—because I take her views very seriously.

As for the characterisation of managed decline, I remind Willie Rennie that the latest higher education statistics show that a record number of Scotland-domiciled students are studying at Scottish universities. We have some of the best universities in the world—those universities are world class because they undertake excellent initiatives and provide excellent education. That is also down to the funding that the Scottish Government has put into our higher education and further education sectors, and will continue to put into them for many years to come.

I am more than happy to engage with our university and college principals, but I do not accept that there is managed decline when we have world-class universities, such as the University of St Andrews, which are being funded by the Scottish Government.

ScotRail (Timetable)

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

6. I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests.

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s position is on the potential impact of the proposed timetable reductions by ScotRail on efforts to ensure a modal shift from car to train. (S6F-02085)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

My understanding is that, under ScotRail’s new May 2023 timetable, the number of daily services will remain the same, with no overall reduction, and resources will be focused on areas to better serve current demand. As a result, peak-time trains and school connections have been prioritised to support the modal shift that Katy Clark referred to.

I want to make Scotland’s public transport system more accessible, I want to make it more available and I want to make it more affordable. That is why I confirmed last month that the six-month pilot to remove peak-time fares from ScotRail services will start in October. That intervention, which is unprecedented in the UK rail sector, will enable officials to gather evidence across transport modes for the fair fares review and will inform future proposals while, importantly, encouraging modal shift.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

Despite the Scottish Government’s goal of reducing car use by 20 per cent by 2030, ScotRail proposes to cut many train services, including many commuter services, including the 7.42 am service from Largs to Glasgow. Will the First Minister look at the case for maintaining the 7.42 am commuter service from Largs to Glasgow? Does he agree that we need to do far more to encourage people to use the railways rather than cars, if we are to achieve our climate change target? Will he assess how the timetable changes that ScotRail has proposed will impact on meeting such goals?

The First Minister

I agree with the underlying premise of Katy Clark’s question, which is that it is important to make public transport as available, affordable and accessible as possible in order to achieve the modal shift from the car to public transport.

On the operational matters that Katy Clark referred to, I will ensure that the Minister for Transport engages with ScotRail, but they are matters for ScotRail. My understanding is that the 7.42 am from Largs to Glasgow will be replaced by the 7.54 am from Ardrossan to Glasgow, and that a train from Ardrossan to Glasgow that departs at 7.26 am has been added to the timetable.

The May 2023 timetable will also provide journey-time savings for passengers who travel on the Ayr-Glasgow route. Following customer feedback, the Ardrossan and Largs services now call at stations in the Garnock valley, in order to improve connectivity. Changes that have been directly influenced by user feedback have been made across the timetable.

Katy Clark is absolutely right that we need to continue to do more to ensure that the modal shift from car to public transport happens. That is why I am really pleased that one of my first acts as First Minister was to announce the beginning of the pilot to abolish peak rail fares, which will run for six months from October this year.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

Can the First Minister confirm that passenger numbers have not returned to pre-Covid levels, partly because people are working at home, and that that means a shortfall in cash for either the railways or the Government? Can he confirm how that shortfall is being made up?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

John Mason is absolutely right to raise that issue. Clearly, passenger numbers are still recovering from the pandemic, so income levels are still down. Scotland’s rail operators are also having to meet the high inflationary costs that are affecting every business and person right now. Of course, all that impacts on our rail budget.

I understand that the cost of implementing the May 2023 timetable change is projected to be neutral. It is difficult to accurately assess the exact financial impact of passenger numbers, which have not yet returned to pre-Covid levels, but it is good that demand continues to increase—even if only incrementally—and numbers have recovered to more than two thirds of pre-Covid levels.

Clearly, we want Scotland’s publicly controlled railways to succeed in the short and long terms. Through a range of promotions in recent months, ScotRail has been working hard to encourage more people to travel by train—not least because of the contribution that rail can, should and will make to addressing climate change and cutting transport emissions.

The Presiding Officer

We move to general and constituency supplementary questions.

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning (Holiday Homes)

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

Following the tragic death of Jaime Carsi in Majorca, due to a suspected carbon monoxide leak in a holiday home, I know that members’ thoughts and condolences will be with Mr Carsi’s friends and loved ones—especially his wife, who is now recovering.

The dangers of carbon monoxide are frequently a subject for the cross-party group on accident prevention and safety awareness. Regulations here vary greatly from those abroad, so does the First Minister agree that members of the public should consider the advice from organisations such as the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and the Safer Tourism Foundation, that a carbon monoxide alarm is essential holiday packing?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Yes, I agree with that. Of course, my thoughts are with the family of Jaime Carsi, with his wife, Mary—who, I understand, remains in a very serious condition in hospital—and with their friends, family and community, who will be deeply saddened and rocked by these events.

A carbon monoxide detector can give people an important life-saving warning about a faulty appliance. Of course, in Scotland, it is a legal requirement to have a carbon monoxide detector in any room that has a carbon-fuelled appliance. Fitting a detector is vital for safety and could, quite literally, save people’s lives. I encourage everyone to find out about the importance of being aware of the signs of carbon monoxide poisoning, and about the actions that can keep them safe. People can find more information on www.gassaferegister.co.uk.

I hope that Mary Somerville, the wife of Jaime Carsi, continues to recover. My thoughts are with her and the family of Jaime Carsi.

Aberdeen City Council (Library and Pool Closures)

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Yesterday, the fight to save six libraries and Bucksburn swimming pool in Aberdeen moved to the courts. Will the First Minister contact the Scottish National Party administration at Aberdeen City Council and tell its members to get a grip, listen to the people whom they are meant to serve and not fight them in the courts—or is that yet another example of the SNP failing the people of the north-east?

The Presiding Officer

Before the First Minister responds, I remind members again that questions should be put to the First Minister on matters for which the Scottish Government has general responsibility.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Of course, the SNP Government has increased funding for local government, and Douglas Lumsden would be the first to complain if we were to interfere and intervene in local decisions that are being made.

I will not comment on any potential or live court proceedings, but I will say that we have increased funding to local government. We respect the decisions that are being made by local government, and it is local authorities’ right to make those decisions, under section 163 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. We will continue to make sure that we fund local government, but we will not intervene and interfere in locally made decisions.

Free School Meals

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

This evening, alongside the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the

Sunday Mail

, I am hosting a parliamentary reception to celebrate the food for thought campaign and the positive impact of universal free school meals across Scotland. All MSPs are invited, and we hope that the First Minister can join us to hear directly from young people how access to universal free school meals is reducing poverty, inequality and stigma.

Further to comments that he reportedly made in the

Daily Record,

will the First Minister provide an update on the roll-out of universal free school meals in primary schools and on the pilot programme to be launched in secondary schools?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I say to Monica Lennon and others who have an interest in the issue that the Scottish National Party, which is leading the Government, is the party of universalism. That is why we abolished tuition fees, which is something that Keir Starmer’s Labour Party is not going to be doing. It is why we are the party of the baby box and the party that introduced universal free school meals from primary 1 to primary 5. We stood on a manifesto commitment, and we remain committed, to the future roll-out for P6 and P7, and we are also looking at a pilot in secondary schools.

I have simply made the point, including at the anti-poverty summit—and I continue to make this point—that we will look at what more we can do around progressive taxation and, because of the economic carnage that has been inflicted on us by the United Kingdom Government, we will have to look at making really tough decisions. We will have to look at targeting across a range of potential policy areas.

There is not a conflict between universalism and being targeted. There are some rights that should be universal, such as the right to a free education and free university education. They are rights; they are not benefits or a luxury. At the same time, we should absolutely make sure that we are being targeted where we can, such as, for example, with the Scottish child payment. That game-changing intervention is helping the poorest in our society.

We are the party of universalism, but we are also the party that makes sure that we target our resources towards those who absolutely need the most help, particularly in the face of a UK Government that is inflicting harm upon harm on the poorest in our society.

Bracken (Use of Asulox)

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Uncontrolled bracken is the perfect breeding ground for ticks, which carry diseases that infect humans, including the debilitating Lyme disease. Will the First Minister end the delay and instruct the authorisation of Asulox, which is the only effective treatment to control bracken? Given that time is running out for both its procurement and use in the available season, will he do that straight away? If not, does he appreciate that the outcome will likely be the widespread infection of many human beings with this dreadful Lyme disease?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I will look into the serious issue that Fergus Ewing raises. The Scottish Government recognises the concerns about the potential risk of uncontrolled bracken and the difficulties associated with its control, particularly here in Scotland.

Asulox is a herbicide that has no current European Union or United Kingdom authorisation. There are specific legislative conditions that must be met in order to grant an emergency authorisation of the product to ensure a high level of protection of human health and the environment.

The Health and Safety Executive is responsible for assessing emergency authorisation applications right across the UK against the legislative requirements. The Scottish Government considered and promptly responded to the HSE’s recommendation. My understanding is that the HSE will issue the decision to the applicant once all other UK Governments have responded.

The Scottish Government is aware of the importance of effective pesticides when used as part of an integrated approach, and our position is very much guided by regulation and, crucially, by scientific evidence.

Oil and Gas Exploration (North Sea)

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

This week, three quarters of people surveyed said that they think that we should meet our domestic energy needs from United Kingdom oil and gas production rather than from imports. This Government’s energy strategy specifically includes a presumption against new exploration and production in the North Sea.

Yesterday, the First Minister tried to please both sides of the debate, yet he carefully committed to neither. Here is the chance for him to get off the fence. Given the need for energy security to protect thousands of Scottish jobs and the climate benefits of local production, will he remove from the energy strategy the Government’s intention to close down the North Sea?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

What the Government will do is listen to the responses to the consultation, which closed just a couple of days ago. We have had more than 1,500 responses, and we will analyse them carefully.

Be in no doubt that we are absolutely committed to our just transition away from oil and gas. It is important and crucial for our economy and our planet to make sure that we unleash the potential of the green economy. We have to make sure that we live up to our climate obligations—both domestic targets and international obligations. We have to make sure that we are playing our part in energy security domestically but also internationally.

What we absolutely will not do is what Liam Kerr’s Conservatives did to the mining and steel communities in the 1970s and 80s. We will not throw a single worker in the north-east on to the scrap heap during the just transition process.

What members will see from the Scottish Government when it comes to unlocking our green potential is action. What we are seeing from the United Kingdom Government is complete and utter inaction. For example, it is failing to make any meaningful progress on investment in the Scottish cluster, or, indeed, on the Acorn project in particular. There is complete and utter abject failure and inaction from the UK Government, whereas we will take action to make sure that we unleash the potential of the green economy, not just in the north-east but in the whole of Scotland. That is important because we want to invest in and unlock the potential of our economy, but also because it is a moral imperative to ensure the sustainability of our planet in the future.

Ferguson Marine (Return to Private Ownership)

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

The Cabinet Secretary for Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy has now said that he would like to see Ferguson Marine return to private ownership as soon as possible. The GMB union rightly says that the award of Ministry of Defence work from BAE Systems to Ferguson Marine is a sign of confidence in the workforce and that the Scottish Government should follow suit by developing a plan for the direct award of work to it on smaller vessels, with robust oversight in place. The GMB is right. Changing ownership and plunging the workforce into more uncertainty is not the solution. It is important that we listen to the GMB. In fact, if its warnings had been listened to earlier, perhaps we would not have the fiasco that we have now.

Does the First Minister not accept that, given that this whole mess is of the Government’s making, it is the Government’s job to clear it up?

The First Minister

Of course, the Government stepped in and saved hundreds of jobs on the Clyde. I make no apology for that.

There have undoubtedly been challenges, which the Government has fronted up. However, when it comes to the GMB’s letter and this issue of public versus private ownership, what Neil Gray said has been the Government’s position for a long time. It has always been the intention of the Scottish Government to return Ferguson Marine to private ownership. That was made clear when we announced that the yard was being taken into public ownership in the first place.

Having seen the GMB letter, I can say that there is not much in it that we disagree with. We want to work with the GMB and with the wider workforce to secure the best possible future outcome for the yard. We absolutely have faith in that workforce and in the future of the yard. Investment in the yard is about more than just profitability, important as that is. It is about the retention of skills and jobs and manufacturing capability. Those will be key considerations in any decision on the future of the yard.

Any deal to see the yard returned to private ownership must present value for money, but let me be absolutely unequivocal that it must also ensure that it continues the good work on fair work that is at the heart of everything that this Government does.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s questions. There will be a short suspension to allow those leaving the chamber and the public gallery to do so.

12:48 Meeting suspended.

12:50 On resuming—

Supporting Mental Health in Rural Communities

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-06107, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, on supporting mental health in rural communities. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. Members who wish to participate should press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am struggling to hear. I wonder whether we can turn up the volume in the chamber. Your mic is very quiet.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I will speak up and hope that that will improve the situation, Mr Carson.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament recognises what it sees as the unique challenges being faced by farmers and the wider agricultural industry as a result of vast input cost inflation caused by Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, among other factors; commends farmers and crofters for the role that it considers they play at the heart of rural communities, producing high-quality sustainable food, supporting thousands of jobs, helping to tackle climate change and enhancing biodiversity despite the pressures that they face; understands that these pressures contribute to concerns around the mental health of Scottish farmers and crofters, including in the Scottish Borders; notes the work of the National Farmers Union Scotland in working with its members to protect the physical and mental wellbeing of all those working and living in farming communities and highlighting the issue of mental health in farming, agriculture and countryside management more widely, alongside the work of the Countryside Alliance, the Mental Health Foundation Scotland, Scottish Land and Estates, the National Rural Mental Health Forum and the Poverty Alliance, among others, for highlighting the issue and working towards finding solutions, and notes the calls encouraging those who are struggling with their mental health to access help and support from either their friends or family or the many services available, including RSABI.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

It is a privilege to bring the motion for debate to the chamber today. I know that the members and colleagues joining me in the chamber are incredibly supportive of the topic and I thank them for that.

During yesterday’s rural questions at portfolio question time, we heard the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands speak genuinely about the Royal Scottish Agricultural Benevolent Institution and the national rural mental health forum in response to a question from my colleague Alexander Stewart. Her response showed that we can discuss the issue without scoring political points; it is an issue on which politicians can agree, and that is exactly what I hope to achieve from today’s debate.

Last May, alongside my colleague Craig Hoy, I hosted a round-table discussion on the issue with a wide group of stakeholders from rural industries and the third sector. Organisations such as Scottish Land & Estates, Age Scotland, the Poverty Alliance, the Countryside Alliance and the Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland attended. It was clear from that meeting that there is so much more that we could do to support their work.

We identified the need to tackle the stigma around mental health as well as the importance of early intervention, but those issues are universal. The key takeaway from the discussion for me was that rural communities face entirely different mental health challenges from those faced by people in cities and our response to those challenges must be sensitive to that.

There is a growing recognition that rural contexts can be overlooked in the design of mental health services, and that led to the creation of the national rural mental health forum. I welcome Jim Hume to the gallery today. The cabinet secretary outlined that the Scottish Government is providing the forum with £50,000 of support, but I think that we all got the sense that she wished that she could go further.

People living in rural areas—farmers, crofters and agricultural workers—often find it difficult to access mental health care. Like other people across Scotland, they experience depression, suicidal thoughts and feelings, self-harming behaviour and anxiety, no matter their age, gender or location. On top of that, remoteness, isolation and small-town stigma can exacerbate those problems, as can the occupational challenges that rural workers face.

Take gamekeepers, for example, who face vitriol and abuse on a daily basis for simply doing their jobs looking after the countryside. They must also contend with the threat of losing their livelihoods, which looms over their heads as a result of the strict but necessary management of gun licences. All the while, their working life could see them go for days without seeing another person.

It is those challenges that led us to call on the Government to establish a rural workers task force to look at ways of supporting those workers with their mental health. I was encouraged, as I think that we all were, when the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon committed to looking again at those proposals. I know that things have changed a little in Government since then and that such commitments can fall by the wayside. However, the past few years have been tough for people living in rural areas.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

I entirely agree with what Rachael Hamilton has said thus far. Does she also recognise the really critical and practical work of the Royal Scottish Agricultural Benevolent Institution, which is carried out by volunteers who provide assistance to farmers—and particularly to crofters, who live remotely and may not see anyone for weeks on end—and give invaluable support to people in those predicaments throughout rural Scotland?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can give you the time back, Ms Hamilton.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

I completely agree with Fergus Ewing that RSABI does good work. I will mention that a little later, because the work that RSABI does has formed the basis of some of the proposals that I will talk about today.

I was talking about the challenges that farmers and rural workers have been facing not only in making sure that we had food on our plates throughout Covid, but because of having to work every single day and being unable to take a day off. They have also faced increased energy and input costs, due to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. Those costs have had to be absorbed by people working in the agricultural sector, which has put a huge financial strain on their balance sheets.

That is why my party and I have taken the initiative to produce detailed proposals to establish a Scottish rural mental health task force. I will explain a little more about that as I go on. Our plan will ensure that rural provision of general practitioners is placed on a sustainable footing to bolster mental health services in rural communities. It would create a network of mental health first aiders by training residents, neighbours, members of local clubs and professionals such as vets, feed merchants and rural sales representatives, so that the farmers and rural workers with whom they frequently engage can get the maximum and best benefit from that interaction. Those mental health first aiders would be trained to identify the signs of poor mental health and would encourage mental health training among rural workers. We would establish a short-life working group to launch a viable and collaborative way of delivering that ambition.

I would, of course, be delighted to discuss those proposals further with the cabinet secretary and her colleagues in Government. For all that we disagree on, I know that this Government takes mental health seriously, but the Government is only one piece of the puzzle.

At the annual dinner of NFU Scotland earlier this year, I was fortunate to sit next to Marc Gascoigne. He founded Farmstrong in New Zealand, which has now been established in Scotland. We spoke at length about his organisation’s work in supporting farmers’ wellbeing. I also thank Virgin Money, which might sound like a slightly unlikely contributor to a debate on this subject. Virgin Money partnered with Farmstrong and funded its roadshow throughout Scotland—something that was undoubtedly fostered by Virgin Money’s relationship with its predecessor bank, the Clydesdale Bank, which had a strong relationship with the agricultural sector and worked across the countryside.

That conversation with Marc Gascoigne strengthened my resolve to bring this debate to the chamber so that we can discuss what more we can do to tackle these issues. We are joined today by representatives from RSABI, Change Mental Health, the NFUS and SLE, who have also undertaken fantastic work on this issue. Their role, and that of the third sector and other rural organisations, cannot be overstated. Whether in signposting people towards specific services or simply providing someone to talk to, their work is absolutely vital and I am delighted that they have joined us for the debate.

I have spoken at length about the issue that I plan to tackle, but I will finish on a more personal note. The British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy was kind enough to prepare a briefing for today’s debate and drew attention to the fact that women working in agriculture face a higher burden of depression than men. Before I entered politics, I was an agronomist, visiting farms across Scotland and the north of England. There is no doubt that, for many of the farmers whom I worked with, I was the only person whom they spoke to on any given day. Can you imagine that? Poor things.

For me, they could literally be the only people whom I spoke to that week. In my role, I was one of only two women out of 100 people across the UK, which brought its own challenges. I had long days with little interaction with others and I had to deal with the odd throwaway comment about my being a woman in agriculture. It is so easy to see how things can build up to a point where it becomes difficult to cope.

I am sorry that I do not have time to say more about young farmers. I hope that some of my colleagues will mention them, because they face the challenges of social isolation as well. I was thankful to have a fantastic support network around me for anything that happened to me, but not everybody is so lucky. I hope that we can work together to make things better.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

I congratulate

Rachael Hamilton on securing this debate. It is a really important issue, and Ms Hamilton has highlighted that very well.

As an MSP who covers a large rural area—Dumfries and Galloway and the Scottish Borders—I am aware of the challenges that rurality can pose for positive mental health, but also of the benefits that it can bring. I am also aware of the increased challenges that our farming community faces, which the motion mentions. The Ukraine war and the cost crisis have added increased stress, as has leaving the European Union.

This has already been said, but it is worth repeating that the evidence shows us that people in rural Scotland are more likely than others to experience depression, suicidal thoughts and feelings, self-harming behaviour and anxiety, no matter their age, gender or location. They are at higher risk of becoming isolated, and that risk is worsened by remoteness, stigma and fear. Stigma is a huge issue and it needs to be addressed. It is therefore right that we take whatever action is possible to support the health and wellbeing of our rural communities.

Some 98 per cent of Scotland’s land mass is rural and 17 per cent of Scotland’s population lives in rural Scotland, which equates to just under 1 million people. A lack of anonymity has been identified as a barrier to people seeking help at an early stage in rural areas. Evidence from Change Mental Health, which was formerly known as Support in Mind, shows that people in rural Scotland want support to be low level and to be delivered in non-clinical, informal settings by trusted people and local networks.

Services need to be close to the place of need and should be designed to include mobile and digital services and outreach. The outreach approach must recognise the significant stress that is involved in travelling to appointments for those with poor mental health. I therefore ask the cabinet secretary whether further targeted advertising and engagement can take place across rural Scotland to promote the means through which people can access support and to promote the wider message that it is okay not to be okay.

I am aware of the research from RSABI that shows that the Scottish index of multiple deprivation struggles to identify people living in deprivation in rural areas. That can lead to some believing that living in rural Scotland is idyllic, whereas in fact deprivation and poverty exist and are becoming exacerbated there. The lowest-wage economies in Scotland are in rural areas, and nine out of 10 people who are income deprived do not live in a recognised deprived area.

Evidence suggests that people who live in rural areas experience deprivation differently from those who live in towns and cities. The particular issues in rural areas include the need for higher consumption of fuel for heating and transport. I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly’s economy committee, and our current inquiry is highlighting that the challenging cost of oil for heating is a major issue. That can contribute to poorer mental health.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Does Emma Harper agree that we need to

do a lot better in creating the parity that should exist between physical and mental health services? That does not exist in rural areas, for sure, but it does not exist in much of Scotland. Does she agree that we should unite to seek a rapid improvement in that regard?

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

I thank Stephen Kerr for that intervention. I am also a member of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, and a nurse, and a lot of my work as a former co-convener of the cross-party group on mental health has dealt with the parity that is needed. A lot of work is going on. I support what Stephen Kerr asks for, but I know that a lot of work is under way right now, especially in the work that I am doing in the Parliament.

Less accessibility to key services such as childcare, broadband and transport links can also be a challenge. The limit to opportunities to earn adequate income, in comparison with those in urban areas, is part of the issue. I am conscious of time, Presiding Officer, but I am aware from my own casework that many issues need to be supported.

I also want to give a nod to former MSP Jim Hume and to Kira McDiarmid, from Change Mental Health, whom I welcome to the gallery.

There is so much other work that I could talk about as well. RSABI has already been highlighted. It is another fantastic charity that operates to support those in our agricultural communities.

Mental health is everyone’s business, and we must collectively work to tackle it in all our areas, including our rural areas.

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I thank Rachael Hamilton for bringing such an important topic to the chamber—for shining a light on an epidemic that is often hidden. Both Rachael Hamilton and I represent areas that have large remote and rural populations. More than half of the population of Aberdeenshire live in rural areas, compared with around 17 per cent of the population of the rest of Scotland.

However, mental health interventions have often been developed through the lens of urban populations, but what works in Glasgow will not necessarily work in Glenbervie. It is vital that policy makers recognise the unique nature of mental health in rural and farming communities, so that we can respond better. That is why advocacy by organisations such as NFU Scotland, the Farm Safety Foundation and the Countryside Alliance, as well as the work of academic institutions such as Robert Gordon University, which is in my region, are so important.

In the north-east, more than 22,000 people are employed in the food, drink and agriculture sectors. However, the awful reality is that suicide rates for agriculture workers are among the highest in the United Kingdom. Sadly, one farmer a week dies by suicide.

As we have heard, farmers often work in isolation. Loneliness frequently affects their mental health. Financial worries, especially given input-price inflation, can weigh heavily on their minds. The 2021 documentary “Unearthing Farming Lives”, which was conceived by several organisations in the north-east of Scotland, thoughtfully examines those issues.

The north-east has also suffered from the recent avian flu outbreak, which has resulted in the deaths of thousands of hens. That is a devastating loss for businesses.

In addition, although spring heralds the lambing and calving season, there are associated pressures and stresses for farmers. Livestock worrying, for example, can have a devastating impact on their mental health. Recently, there have been the horrendous cases of one dog mauling 17 lambs to death in Fife, and four lamb deaths in Moray.

As we have heard, farming can be both physically and psychologically tough.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

Tess White mentioned livestock worrying. It is great that we raise awareness at every opportunity about attacks on livestock. Does she agree that the changes to legislation that were made by my member’s bill will help to raise awareness so that we can reduce incidents of livestock worrying?

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I thank Emma Harper for raising that matter. Anything that can prevent livestock worrying is to be applauded.

The behaviour of dog walkers is also important—they must keep dogs on leads at this time of year.

We must continue to break down the barriers, including loneliness, that might prevent farmers and the agricultural community from accessing help.

It is good that—as we have heard today—young farmers are doing a lot of good work. They are piloting the “Thrive” mental wellbeing app, which provides live access to qualified therapists who can give advice on many things, especially mental health. We need to look more closely at such initiatives.

I will make two final comments. Access to appropriate NHS services to support their mental health can be challenging for people who reside in rural and remote communities. We know that, sadly, there is a shortage of general practitioners and other clinicians in rural areas. The Scottish Government urgently needs to address that in order to prevent the collapse of rural healthcare.

It is good that Mairi Gougeon MSP is here to hear my next comment, because Angus mental health patients have also been badly let down by the closure in 2018 of the Mulberry unit at Stracathro hospital, which means that patients have had, and still have, to travel miles to a facility in Dundee where, as the Strang report has revealed, there are serious systemic issues with mental health services. Residents in Angus feel deeply let down by that decision.

I hope that the minister will address those points in her closing speech.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

I also thank Rachael Hamilton for bringing this important debate. I was aware of her knowledge about and thoughts on the matter, but her speech was really good and well received. I thank her for it.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. Like many members in the chamber, I represent a rural region—South Scotland—and I recognise much of what is in the motion for debate. The agriculture industry is undoubtedly one of the most challenged out there—whether that is due to the weather, supply chain issues, uncertainty following the war in Ukraine or soaring energy prices. Farmers, farm workers and crofters are constantly battling the various factors that affect their livelihoods and businesses. With long hours, financial pressures and often isolated workplaces, farmers and the agriculture workforce are more susceptible to their mental health being under strain.

According, as we have heard, to the Office for National Statistics, the suicide rate for male farm workers is three times the male national average. That is a worrying figure, which has persisted over a long period of time. It shows the importance of having a particular focus on improving rural mental health. It is a devastating statistic that we must all take very seriously.

Numerous studies that I came across while preparing for today’s debate highlight the wide range of mental health challenges that face people in rural Scotland. Alarmingly, there are also the false conclusions about the idyllic countryside lifestyle and moving to the countryside for a better life—the kind of thing that we see on the TV, but which is just not the reality for so many people.

I welcome the fact that mental health in rural communities is receiving more attention. It appears that we are beginning to turn a corner in recognising its vital importance to the wellbeing of countryside communities. Nonetheless, let me be clear that recognition on its own will not push the needle forward. It will require considerable and targeted campaigning, as we have heard, and investment over a long period of time. We need a long-term commitment to the issue.

Although investment in mental health services is necessary, that alone will not deliver the change that we need. We require a strong economy that delivers for rural areas and improves the likelihood not only of mental wellbeing but of physical, social and economic wellbeing, which are absolutely essential.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Carol Mochan is making an important point about the need for us to revitalise rural life and the rural economy. One of the key infrastructure projects in that regard is the extension to full coverage of 5G and full-fibre broadband. That one infrastructure project in itself has the power not only to transform the rural economy and rural life but to tackle isolation and loneliness. Does she agree?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can give you the time back.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

Thank you.

I absolutely agree. I was fully behind the commitment from the Labour Party in 2019 when we talked about the internet being the equivalent of the libraries of the early 20th century. It opens up opportunities for people and businesses and it absolutely tackles isolation. I think that we would all agree that the pandemic proved that beyond doubt. We need to get that infrastructure work done and we need to prioritise areas where it would make the biggest difference.

For too long, we have focused over much on urban areas. Tess White made a good point about how we should manage services in our rural economies, some of which we have forgotten about.

In the interests of time I will omit other points that I was going to make, and which Emma Harper has already raised, on ensuring that we have good services and that people can see the benefit of meeting up and having places to go to. I believe in the importance of good public services in rural areas.

I thank other members for their contributions. The idea that we should be working together to make such change happen is so important.

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests in relation to farming, crofting, shooting and deerstalking.

I, too, thank Rachael Hamilton for securing the debate. There have been many excellent speeches so far and each has looked at the issue slightly differently. Ms Hamilton mentioned young farmers; how right she was to focus on them. It goes without saying that they are the future of farming, so it is absolutely right that their mental health should be a focus of the debate.

In every debate that we have on rural issues, we rightly pay tribute to the ways in which farmers, crofters, growers, gamekeepers and others manage the land. We talk about how they have adapted to the need to reduce carbon emissions and to do things more efficiently in order to meet new environmental challenges. We applaud the ingenuity of people in rural Scotland who have driven diversification in agriculture business in order that they can become more sustainable. However, we rarely acknowledge the individuals who are behind all that and—more importantly—their wellbeing.

As other members have said, the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution’s “The Big Farming Survey” found that 36 per cent of people in the UK’s farming community are either probably or possibly depressed. Many do not seek mental health support due to the stigma that is attached to doing so. Levels of depression vary among farming sectors, but the group with the second-highest level in that study was grazing livestock farmers from so-called less favoured areas. That is of particular concern to me because I represent the Highlands and Islands region, where that land status predominates.

The reasons for the figures are multifaceted, and many speakers have developed arguments about them. Isolation and long working hours have been mentioned as key reasons for poor mental health in the sector. The NFU Scotland has noted that farmers face increasing input costs, market volatility and so on.

In another context, some rural workers experience threats and abuse. The British Association for Shooting and Conservation Scotland has highlighted recent Scottish Government research that found that 64 per cent—almost two thirds—of gamekeepers in Scotland experience threatening behaviour or abuse from members of the public at least once a year.

We must also be cognisant that access to mental health services remains difficult for many people across Scotland, and especially for people in rural Scotland. Recent data shows that, in the NHS Highland area alone, almost three quarters of adults are waiting for longer than 18 weeks for mental health treatment, and that nearly half of those who are waiting to be seen have waited for longer than a year. In our island communities waiting times are just as stark. In the Western Isles, half of adults who are waiting are waiting for longer than 18 weeks. In Shetland, almost 40 per cent are waiting for longer than that. We cannot sweep that under the carpet, and Tess White was absolutely right to mention it.

There has to be swift and effective action to bring down waiting times so that people in our rural communities who need specialist support can be seen as a matter of urgency. That is not a role for just the national health service to play. We know that many organisations do fantastic work to support agriculture workers. They have been mentioned already, but I will do so again, because they absolutely deserve it. The NFU Scotland, BASC Scotland, Change Mental Health, and Scottish Land & Estates all do fantastic work to support the mental health of their members and others.

Our agriculture workers and land managers are, as others have said, the custodians and guardians of the Scottish countryside. They do fantastic work that is often not recognised and, without them, Scotland would be a poorer nation. However, warm words do little for those people, who often work in difficult conditions through long hours, and who face a multitude of challenges. All of us here must do much more to support and nourish people in our rural workforce, when it comes to their mental health.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

I thank and congratulate Rachael Hamilton for bringing this important debate to the chamber. There is a mental health crisis in Scotland—there was one long before the pandemic—and it affects people from all walks of life.

In the early days of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, we could all be forgiven for feeling anxious but, although many of us have the option to focus on other matters while the conflict continues, crofters, farmers and agricultural workers are, quite literally, ploughing on. As the motion highlights, there has been a vast rise in inflation in the cost of the products and services that are needed to provide food for our tables. Alongside the impact of Brexit and a slowdown of the world economy due to Covid-19, the conflict in Ukraine has contributed to the inflation rise, and farmers cannot escape its growing impact. They are doing all that they can to cope with financial pressures, ensuring that high-quality produce is available at affordable prices and in fulsome supply, but businesses are at risk from multiple factors.

Leaving Europe has meant not only an impact on inflation or that fewer workers are coming forward to pick produce, but a new uncertainty about the future of farming payments. We are seeing an increase in criminal behaviour, too, such as fly tipping, theft, damage and irresponsible access in the countryside that threatens the welfare of livestock, with dog attacks or people leaving gates open. That impacts financial stability—people do not seem to understand the impact of those actions.

The pressure is on, therefore, and it is on those people who are working to produce food. It is not just about the physical toll of working all hours in all weathers, supporting the environment as well as their families and the wider food supply chain, but about the anxiety and worry about the increasing pressures that I have just described. More support is needed to address the underlying concerns that can contribute to poor mental health. Meanwhile, lack of anonymity in rural Scotland is known to be a barrier to people seeking help at an early stage. Crofters, farmers and agricultural workers often work alone, too, which increases the impact of loneliness, which can be a major contributor to poor mental health.

More widely in rural areas, one in 10 rural jobs is based on an estate business and those businesses are feeling the pressure, too. Any impact on them would see a knock-on effect on unemployment across a community. Those are the communities that face unique challenges of rural deprivation, such as higher fuel costs and poor public transport options.

Scotland’s islands have some of the highest levels of fuel poverty. The winter has been tough, and the weather does not necessarily allow for the heating to be turned off, even in summer. The cross-party group on poverty has opened an inquiry into rural poverty and is encouraging people to share their experiences and views—more information can be found on the Poverty Alliance website.

As I raised in the chamber yesterday, attracting local health and social care staff to live and work in rural and island areas is challenging, and it impacts physical and mental health service provision.

As others have said, poor connectivity makes seeking help or travelling to services more difficult. Communities in the north isles of Shetland, for example, face multiple ferry journeys to reach services on mainland Shetland, while poor rural broadband connections or, often, a complete lack of any digital connectivity or mobile signal—national infrastructure that should be available to all regardless of geography—make it impossible to access online therapeutic services.

However, as the motion reminds us, there is support out there. Several organisations are working to provide tailored support for rural communities and all of them are mentioned in the motion. To conclude, I commend the groups that provide tailored and person-centred support to rural communities.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

It is widely accepted that people in rural Scotland are more likely to experience depression and suicidal thoughts and are at a higher risk of self-harming behaviour. No matter their age, gender or even location, there is every chance that they will feel isolated, and that is often worsened by remoteness and fear of stigma.

Individuals need more chances to engage before a wider mental health crisis occurs. That engagement could take the form of a low-level, local and non-clinical setting with shorter waiting times and mobile outreach to all parts of Scotland, all of which would play a huge part in the prevention of mental ill-health.

It is, after all, everyone’s business to tackle mental ill-health, and the excellent work of the national rural mental health forum is vital in driving that. I am pleased to see some of the members of that forum in the public gallery today, including Jim Hume, who once served in the chamber and continues to champion rural Scotland. The forum is a dedicated network of more than 230 organisations from the third, private and public sectors, with an outreach to more than half a million people who live in rural Scotland, including in my constituency of Galloway and West Dumfries.

Essentially, the forum drives change to enable rural people to be open about their mental health by creating a solid evidence base for the work that is needed to improve their lives. Importantly, the forum has developed a programme to influence policy makers to channel resources in a way that brings positive change through a network of rural organisations across Scotland. Any action to tackle mental health topics and issues in rural communities should be taken in close and continuous collaboration with the forum if we seriously want to address the problem.

Lack of anonymity has been identified as a barrier that prevents people from seeking help at an early stage. We must tackle that and create ways for people to connect with one another before their personal crisis occurs. As I have argued on numerous occasions, services should be close to the place of need and they should be designed to include mobile and digital services as well as outreach. However, the outreach approach must also recognise the significant stress caused by travelling to appointments for those with poor mental health.

Mental health care must be mainstreamed within the NHS and should not just be a bolt-on, as it too often is. There must be parity between mental and physical health. Crucially, there must also be increased focus on the needs of our children and young people by providing greater resources to reduce waiting times, especially in relation to self-harming.

We all recognise the important role that the forum has played in tackling mental ill-health through sharing best practice, encouraging collaboration, raising awareness, informing policy and gathering research. It played a crucial role during the Covid-19 pandemic, which had such a negative impact on the wellbeing of the Scottish rural population in particular. It is now having to deal with the cost of living crisis, especially in rural areas, where a low-wage economy is the norm. Evidence suggests that rural people are facing greater anxiety than most because of higher heating and transport costs, and less accessible key services including healthcare, childcare and broadband. People also have limited opportunity to boost their incomes compared to those in urban areas.

I take this opportunity to highlight a scheme that was introduced in 2020 by the Stewartry Rugby Club; there are two members of the scheme here today. A few years ago, two members tragically took their own lives and, on the back of that, a scheme was set up. It included engagement with the Glasgow Warriors and was to help coaches, players and other members who were experiencing mental health issues or emotional distress. Good mental health is promoted on a par with good physical health and players are encouraged to speak out, even if they are just having a bad day. The scheme strives to ensure that everybody in the club is involved in recognising that health in the broadest sense, whether it be physical or mental, is important.

On the back of what the club is doing, I facilitated a meeting of what was very loosely called the Stewartry mental health forum, which is a group made up of a range of mental health organisations, to encourage people to be aware of the appropriate methods of engagement and to have the confidence simply to be able to speak to someone who might be experiencing low mental health. We know how important the first responder is and research shows that someone with poor mental health might only take three chances to reach out. We must therefore make sure that we get it right.

The Scottish Conservatives want a network of trained mental health advisers to be created across Scotland in the heart of our rural communities, to include NFU members, young farmers, sales representatives, auction mart workers and sports coaches,

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I want to start by thanking Rachael Hamilton for securing this debate, which has given us all an opportunity to talk about the hugely important issue of mental health in our rural communities. I also echo Carol Mochan’s point about the genuine, open approach that Rachael Hamilton has taken to the debate and the tone that she set for today’s discussion, which I very much welcome.

I also welcome the chance to set out the Scottish Government’s work on rural mental health and to discuss the challenges that people in rural areas face, because I personally care about these issues, as I represent a rural constituency. Tess White mentioned the Mulberry unit. She will no doubt be aware of my campaign in that regard. That is why the issue of equality of access for our rural communities is particularly close to my heart.

Rural Scotland and our agricultural communities are based on strength and bonds of support. Farmers and crofters already know the value of supporting one another during good times and at times of difficulty. However, as we have heard, that is really difficult given the isolation that people experience precisely because of where they live and work.

As we have heard, particularly from Emma Harper and Finlay Carson, mental health is everyone’s business. Our rural economy is only as healthy as the individuals and communities who help to drive it forward.

The motion mentions some of the issues that are impacting rural Scotland, and I know from my work as cabinet secretary about some of the particular challenges that our land-based workers and communities have faced and continue to face.

We cannot underplay the many challenges for Scotland’s rural, island and coastal communities and businesses, especially in the aftermath of the pandemic, Brexit and the cost of living crisis and in the wake of global trends such as climate change, biodiversity loss and food and energy insecurity.

In trying to address those challenges, the First Minister recently set out his vision for Scotland and the outcomes that we aim to achieve as a Government. We will use the powers that we have in Scotland to tackle poverty in all its forms and to protect people across our country as far as we can from the impacts of the cost of living crisis. I will briefly set out a couple of examples of how we are trying to address some of those challenges.

One example is the islands cost crisis emergency fund, which we launched last year. The fund recognises the distinct and particular challenges that our island communities face, as highlighted by Rachael Hamilton and outlined by Beatrice Wishart.

In relation to our agriculture sector and in response to the war in Ukraine, we established, together with industry, a food security and supply task force to monitor and identify any potential disruption resulting from the impact of the war and in recognition of the challenges that our supply chains had faced in recent years—the pandemic, Brexit and the resulting vulnerabilities that were, in turn, exacerbated by the illegal war. That work produced a number of recommendations, which we have implemented. However, all these challenges in the round call on us to act, and they call on us to act now, collectively, and to look across and beyond our policy boundaries.

I now turn to the substantive part of Rachael Hamilton’s motion in relation to mental health and the support available. The motion recognises and welcomes the important work that is being done by the NFUS, the Countryside Alliance, the Mental Health Foundation, Scottish Land & Estates, the national rural mental health forum and the Poverty Alliance. As we heard from members across the chamber, it is vital that we recognise the role of organisations such as RSABI and the work that it does, as well as the work that is being done by the Scottish Association of Young Farmers Clubs, the Scottish Crofting Federation and all the other agricultural organisations and businesses, too.

We should support businesses such as vet practices, marts, feed merchants and machinery rings, because they all have an important role to play in providing the first line of mental health support to farmers and crofters.

However, we in the Scottish Government also need to recognise our role as an organisation that operates in rural Scotland. Rural payments and inspections division offices, area offices and sub-offices, along with the Animal and Plant Health Agency offices, exist to support farmers and crofters.

Rural vets have a demanding job, with the pressures of providing a 24-hour emergency response service, and they often work alone while helping farmers and crofters in a wide range of difficult situations. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has recognised that in its mind matters initiative, which provides support to improve mental health in all parts of the veterinary profession, and it is currently introducing further support for vets in rural areas.

A lot is already happening to support rural wellbeing, and we are proud to support a range of initiatives through RSABI and the national rural mental health forum. In the last financial year, we committed £50,000 to supporting RSABI, which takes the total Scottish Government support to more than £500,000.

It is important to outline the support that RSABI is able to offer. It provides emotional support through a 24/7 helpline and webchat service. It also provides a wide range of practical support, including on welfare benefits, business reviews and debt signposting, as well as counselling and mediation services. There is also financial support, which can include monthly payments and, potentially, single grants for essentials including food, heating, counselling, disability aids, funerals, retraining and items for the home.

RSABI is also undertaking fantastic work through the development of a Thrive Mental Wellbeing app, which includes a live therapist function. Three young farmers clubs in Scotland are trialling it, and the initial results look encouraging.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

Will the cabinet secretary give way?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

If I was allowed slightly more time, that would be appreciated, Presiding Officer.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can give you the time back, cabinet secretary.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

You mentioned the app and the work that is being done already. I know that you will be aware that—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Speak through the chair, please, Ms Harper.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

The cabinet secretary will be aware that NHS Inform uses the apps and web information SilverCloud, Daylight and Sleepio. Does she agree that raising awareness of the work that is already under way can help with early interventions?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

Yes, I do. I appreciate the member raising that important point. The fact that she has covered it means that I no longer have to. We need to do what we can to raise awareness of those apps and the support that is available.

I also recognise the work that the SAYFC has done. It runs an established mental health support service for rural young people—the are ewe okay? service. Launched in 2016, the campaign was initially to run for only 12 months, but it was soon realised that it should become a permanent feature. It raises awareness of mental health and wellbeing, with SAYFC members sharing their experiences.

I will briefly mention the national rural mental health forum. The forum has a wide reach. It brings together more than 230 organisations, charities, businesses, research organisations and individuals to focus on knowledge exchange, share experiences and learn about mental health and wellbeing in rural areas. It ensures that the rural voice is heard in policy making.

I am glad that Rachael Hamilton touched on the work of farmstrong, the farmer-led wellbeing programme. I was delighted to get the opportunity to meet Marc Gascoigne at the NFUS annual general meeting in February while he was completing his tour of Scotland and supporting farmers to live well and farm well.

I reiterate my commitment to ensuring that rural communities have the on-going support that they need through the interventions that we have discussed. We have opportunities to do more through our plan for rural Scotland, which the First Minister outlined.

I express my genuine and heartfelt thanks to the organisations that we have talked about. Jim Hume from the national rural mental health forum is in the gallery. I see Carol McLaren from RSABI in the gallery, too. I also mention the NFUS and SLE. I say a huge thank you for the invaluable support that they provide and the work that they continue to do in our rural communities.

I say a final word to anyone who feels that they are struggling at the moment. I encourage them to talk and reach out. All of the organisations that we have mentioned and discussed are here to listen and to help.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes the debate. I suspend this meeting of Parliament until 2.30 pm.

13:39 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—

Social Justice

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is portfolio questions on social justice. Once again, I make a plea for succinct questions and answers to allow as many members as possible to have the opportunity to participate.

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its legal challenge to the decision of the United Kingdom Government to issue a section 35 order in relation to the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. (S6O-02212)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Russell Findlay was present when I gave a statement in the Parliament on 19 June on the reasons for the decision to challenge the UK Government’s issuing of a section 35 order. In that statement, I noted the strict limits on what it was possible for me to say in relation to that challenge but said that, in the interests of transparency, we intended to publish the terms of the Scottish Government’s petition for judicial review. Following that statement, the petition was published in full on the Scottish Government website.

As Russell Findlay will be aware, the Scottish Government cannot comment any further on what are now live legal proceedings.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Two weeks ago, I asked the cabinet secretary to explain how the Scottish National Party can push its gender self-identification law while, at the same time, Humza Yousaf says that a rapist who is claiming to be a woman is “at it”. The First Minister continues to tie himself up in knots over that fundamental contradiction. Will the cabinet secretary confirm that the SNP cannot answer that question because to do so would be to admit that its self-ID law is wide open to abuse by male sex criminals?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

As members will be well aware, the aspects around those who are in the prison estate often include individuals who do not have a gender recognition certificate. Therefore, what is in the bill that was passed by an overwhelming majority of members of the Scottish Parliament will make no change to the risk assessment that happens in each individual case in the prison estate.

Social Security Scotland

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

2. To ask the Scottish Government when it last engaged with Social Security Scotland. (S6O-02213)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

There is close engagement with Social Security Scotland, as an agency of the Scottish Government, on a daily basis. As the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, I also meet the chief executive regularly to maintain oversight over the activities of the agency.

Thanks to that close collaboration we have established a social security system that is based on the principles of dignity, fairness and respect. We are now delivering 13 Scottish Government benefits, seven of which are entirely new forms of financial support that are available only in Scotland.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

I thank the cabinet secretary for providing that clarity.

The application for adult disability payment from one of my constituents was delayed due to their general practitioner taking over five weeks to provide the key health information required for their application to progress. Will the Scottish Government explore additional options to enhance communications between Social Security Scotland and GPs to promote quicker decisions and payments and to avoid lengthy waits? Is there potential to streamline information technology systems at GP surgeries to speed up that processing?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The agency is looking to ensure that it progresses a number of avenues so that people can have their applications decided as quickly as possible. Obviously, GPs are only one source of information that Social Security Scotland can go to. The agency will consider whether it should go to a GP, another professional or, indeed, someone else who knows the individual client well enough to be able to provide supporting information. It is also working with partners such as GPs and GP practice managers to ensure that we all learn from a benefit that is now live but still very new.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

In recent weeks, there has been a growing number of reports of the Social Security Scotland website not functioning properly. Several of my constituents have waited for hours for responses from web chats. What representations have been made to the cabinet secretary on how Social Security Scotland plans to fix those issues?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

There is a high demand for web chat and a high demand on the telephone lines. Social Security Scotland has already taken action to try to ensure that clients who phone in receive more timeous replies.

The agency is also looking at what more can be done with the telephony system to improve efficiency. I will be happy to work with the member and provide further updates on that in due course, as the agency develops.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

We have heard again from the cabinet secretary that dignity, fairness and respect are the guiding principles of Social Security Scotland, just as we did when she spoke of the bill to create the agency in 2019. However, we know that the Government has failed to deliver. It has handed back social security powers, such as the administration of carers allowance, until 2025, leaving thousands of Scots at the mercy of the Tory-run Department for Work and Pensions. Indeed, as we have just heard from Jeremy Balfour, there are serious issues around call handling and web chats, with 28,000 calls to Social Security Scotland involving people waiting more than an hour. I am sure that the cabinet secretary would recognise that that does not match the 2019 aspiration.

What has she done since coming into post to deal with the operational performance of Social Security Scotland to ensure that it looks and acts like the system that was originally promised?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Clearly, there had to be some changes to the timetable, which we made clear at the time, particularly because of the impact of Covid. That was not just because of challenges with the agency or with the Scottish Government but because of the very understandable pressures that were on the DWP as it sought to assist people at the very start. That context needs to be borne in mind.

I am heartened by the discussion that I had with another member today, when we talked about what was felt by people who are being responded to by the agency. As this member reported to me, people feel that they are being believed for the first time, so I think that we should take heart from the fact that we are delivering a system that has dignity, fairness and respect at its heart. Yes, there is more to do; yes, we have much more to do—for example, on the waiting times for the processing of adult disability payments—but the agency is taking action. I meet the chief executive regularly and will continue to do so as we work through further actions that can be taken to improve things.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Eight to 10 weeks was meant to be the maximum time that anyone would wait for adult disability payments, but that is becoming the average waiting time. Has the Scottish Government misjudged that timescale and what is being done to address waits?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

We currently have a four-month average processing time and one factor in that is that the agency, unlike the DWP, has responsibility for the supporting information and the collation of that information.

We heard from Stephanie Callaghan that it sometimes takes other agencies and organisations some time to reply to Social Security Scotland with the sort of information that will allow a decision to be taken. That is exactly why the agency has already taken a number of steps to ensure that it is going to the right people for information.

It is also important to ensure that we take the time—not too much time, of course—to make sure that the person’s eligibility is checked and that the decision is the right one the first time round because we do not want to see what happened with the personal independence payment, where many people were turned down and then had to appeal.

It is taking an unnecessarily long time at the moment, but the agency already has a number of measures in place to ensure that that will improve.

Minimum Income Guarantee

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it has conducted any analysis of the potential cost to the public purse of introducing a minimum income guarantee. (S6O-02214)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The work to define what a minimum income guarantee could look like for Scotland, including costs and delivery, is led by an independent steering group. That comprises a strategy group of cross-party members of the Scottish Parliament, including Miles Briggs, and an expert group from across the third sector, industry and academia.

The expert group published an interim report in March, which set out early considerations for a minimum income guarantee. The group will publish a full report next year, which I expect to include consideration of the costs of a minimum income guarantee.

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

As the cabinet secretary mentioned, the Government’s working group on a minimum income guarantee was established almost two years ago. Although it produced an interim report in March, the report contained absolutely no information on the two most important questions—the level of the income guarantee and how much it would cost. Until the Government sets out the cost, this plan is a fantasy. However, in two years, it still has not managed to even do that. Why is the Scottish National Party Government wasting time and resources on pie-in-the-sky proposals?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The question from Annie Wells is deeply disappointing. I say that because when we were at the anti-poverty summit a few weeks ago, that was one of the areas that many campaigners strongly urged Government and Opposition parties to look at. That is not to say that it is a simple answer and it does not necessarily mean that it is all deliverable within our devolved context. However, it is deeply disappointing to see Annie Wells ruling out aspects. I presume that the questions that she has raised have been issues on which cross-party MSPs on the strategy group are challenging the expert group.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

The current cost of living crisis, which is unprecedented in scale, comes on top of a decade of Tory austerity, exposing the insufficiency of the UK Government’s safety net. What difference would it make if key welfare and employment powers were held in Scotland?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

One of the challenges when we are looking to see how we can tackle poverty in Scotland is what we can do within the powers that we have. We have seen with the game-changing Scottish child payment that the Scottish Government is determined to move forward with what it can do here, but, clearly, if we continue to have the vast majority of welfare powers and all the employment powers being held by the Tories at Westminster, we will consistently be held back in what we can do in Scotland.

House Building

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to encourage house building in Scotland. (S6O-02215)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Over the course of this parliamentary session, we are making available £3.5 billion to support the delivery of more affordable homes. Within that £3.5 billion, we have published five-year local authority resource planning assumptions, totalling £3.221 billion. That has provided the confidence, certainty and assurance that the housing sector needs in order to deliver progress towards our ambitious 110,000 affordable homes target by 2032, and build on our achievement of having delivered more than 118,000 affordable homes since 2007, more than 83,000 of which were for social rent.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

Despite that, a £200 million project by Get Living, a build-to-rent specialist, which aimed to build 1,500 homes in Glasgow, was recently put on hold. A spokesperson for the group said:

“Rent controls have unintended consequences that only served to exacerbate the underlying problem.”

Will the minister admit that his Government’s rent freeze has negatively impacted house building? Will he support the Scottish Conservative’s call for a housing delivery agency?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Analysis of the rent freeze policy is still on-going, and I am sure that Mr Harvie will pick up on that in due course. However, context is key to the first question that the member asked. Only today, we saw interest rates rise for the 12th time in a row, to 4.5 per cent. Construction inflation is at 20 per cent. Regarding the member’s area, there has been a 17 per cent rise in funding from the previous parliamentary session for the Glasgow area and in South Lanarkshire, which he also represents, there has been a 30 per cent rise. I met Glasgow City Council yesterday to discuss how we take those programmes forward.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

Social rented and affordable housing is incredibly important for my constituents. Can the minister say any more about the £3.5 billion programme that he has already referred to and how it is being targeted?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I refer the member to my answer to Mr Gulhane in which I spoke about the work in Glasgow and pointed to the ambitious funding programme and the increased funding. As I mentioned, more than £3.5 billion has been directed towards delivering the strategic priorities of local authorities. I am planning to meet as many local authorities as I can, including Glasgow, where I met council representatives yesterday.

Seventy per cent of the affordable homes to be delivered need to be for social rent. From April 2021 to the end of December 2022, our affordable housing supply programme supported the delivery of 12,430 homes for social rent, which is 77 per cent of the total affordable homes that we delivered during that period. We are also supporting home ownership for people who need support through our low-cost initiative for first-time buyers—LIFT—shared equity scheme, which helps people who are on low to moderate incomes to buy their first home; 1,678 households benefited from that support in the same period.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

I have been contacted by constituents who are concerned about the accessibility of their homes. Despite properties being advertised as wheelchair accessible, there are no fire evacuation procedures for disabled tenants. If there were to be a fire, they would be stuck in their homes and unable to get out. What could the Scottish Government do to ensure that emergency escape routes for disabled people are designed in homes and implemented from the start when building properties?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Broadly, there is an assessment of the guidance on housing for varying needs that is being prepared at the moment, which looks at how we tackle that issue. I am happy to pick up the specific issue with the member and come back to her on that.

Scottish Welfare Fund

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

5. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the delivery of the Scottish welfare fund. (S6O-02216)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

T

he Scottish welfare fund provides an essential source of crisis support and helps with independent living. Since it began in 2013, in excess of £380 million has been paid to more than 500,000 households. As our response to the recently published independent review sets out, we are working with local authorities and stakeholders to put in place an action plan with agreed improvements so that the fund continues to deliver for those who are in need.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

Last year, research into the cost of living crisis from the Poverty Alliance and the Scottish Women’s Budget Group recommended better promotion of the Scottish welfare fund. However, it has been put to me that Glasgow City Council feels that it cannot promote the fund because the fund is oversubscribed, which means that many low-income families in Glasgow cannot access this lifeline support. Given how much local authorities such as Glasgow rely on central Government for funding, will the cabinet secretary commit today to providing councils with the resources that they need to deliver the fund to families who desperately need it?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Local authorities have an obligation to promote the fund to those who they think need its support. I take the member’s question in good faith, but this is my second set of social justice portfolio questions and the second time that a Labour member has asked me to spend more on something. That is all very welcome, and I will listen seriously to suggestions about how the Government can and should spend more money, but we must discuss how that could be paid for. I would be more than happy to discuss that with the member as we move forward.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Miles Briggs has a supplementary question.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I apologise for not being in the chamber at the start of portfolio question time, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Community care grants are part of the Scottish welfare fund. What plans does the Government have to reform the application process for families and individuals who are caring for someone who has been released from prison or a young offenders institution? Will such payments be able to be made before people leave such institutions?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Mr Briggs raises an important point. We have had the Scottish welfare fund review and we are working out an action plan. If something can be done on the issue, I will be happy to update him in due course.

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

The cabinet secretary will be aware that a big hit on the Scottish welfare fund is from mitigation of UK benefit sanctions. Does she share my astonishment—and, I am sure, the astonishment of Mr Sweeney—that Labour has reneged on its pledge to scrap universal credit and has said that it will keep the sanctions regime? Is it not clear that change is not coming?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call the cabinet secretary to respond on matters that are her responsibility.

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I

t is a concern that the UK Labour Party is reneging on a number of pledges that it had made. That is important to the Scottish Government’s powers and therefore the Scottish Parliament’s responsibilities because of how challenging it is for the Scottish Government to continue to mitigate the effect of UK Government policies. It is deeply disappointing—but, unfortunately, not surprising—that there is very little difference between the UK Labour Party and the UK Conservatives on a number of benefit sanctions. That shows in particular that Scottish Labour continues to be a branch of the UK Labour Party.

Homelessness (South and East Ayrshire)

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to tackle homelessness in South and East Ayrshire. (S6O-02217)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Our ending homelessness together plan sets out how we will prevent and tackle homelessness nationally through the implementation of rapid rehousing, scaling up the housing first approach and introducing new homelessness duties, which will ensure that all public bodies work together to prevent homelessness.

Since 2018, we have provided £1.94 million for local rapid rehousing plans in the local authority areas that the member mentioned. Those authorities also receive more than £1.24 million annually for homelessness prevention. Over the parliamentary session, we are making available more than £132 million for affordable housing in the two authorities, which is an increase of 17 per cent on the previous session.

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

Last year, the number of homelessness applications for July to September increased by 60 on the previous year in East Ayrshire and by 41 in South Ayrshire. What engagement has the minister had with those local authorities? What specific plans do ministers have to develop a solution to rural homelessness?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I have already met the City of Edinburgh Council and Glasgow City Council and I would be happy to meet the two local authorities that Ms Dowey talked about to discuss their plans and go into more detail. With regard to looking beyond, we talked about the rapid rehousing programme, and more work needs to be done on that, again, with the local authorities. I am happy to offer the member a meeting with the two local authorities to discuss that.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Bill Kidd has requested a supplementary question, and I am happy to allow his question, but I remind him that it must relate to tackling homelessness in South and East Ayrshire.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer—that reminder is very handy.

Can the minister explain how proposed powers to raise council tax in South Ayrshire on second and empty homes could help to tackle homelessness by maximising the use of existing housing stock across the country?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Our aim is for everyone to have a safe, secure and warm home. Local taxation is one measure that can influence ownership patterns and availability of homes to meet local needs. When we introduced powers in 2013 that enabled councils to vary or remove council tax discounts, the number of second homes reduced and the revenue that was generated was ring fenced for local affordable housing. Extending those powers—to enable councils to choose to charge a council tax premium—could further encourage behavioural change in how we use homes, and I look forward to seeing the responses to the current consultation on that proposal.

Child Poverty (Greenock and Inverclyde)

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to tackle child poverty in the Greenock and Inverclyde constituency. (S6O-02218)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

We are providing a range of support that will benefit families in Greenock and Inverclyde and across Scotland, including investment in the Scottish child payment, 1,140 hours of funded childcare, free bus travel for under-22s and the Scottish welfare fund. Our five family payments, including the Scottish child payment, could be worth more than £10,000 by the time that an eligible child turns six, and more than £20,000 by the time that an eligible child is 16 years old.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

The cabinet secretary will be very much aware of the Trussell Trust’s end-of-year figures for 2022-23, which indicate that the number of food bank parcels that were distributed in my constituency rose by 36 per cent. The figures for the whole of Scotland showed that the Scottish child payment seems to have had an impact, because the rise in the number of households with children receiving food bank parcels was nowhere near the levels that were experienced elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but I am still concerned that the payment was not enough to protect every family from food insecurity. Does the cabinet secretary, therefore, agree that that shows that Scotland is taking a different approach to tackling child poverty and that, if the UK Government is not prepared to match progressive policies such as the Scottish child payment, it should devolve the necessary powers, so that we can go further to help low-income families in Greenock and Inverclyde and across Scotland?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

It is very easy to see the contrast between the approaches of the Scottish and UK Governments. The Scottish Government has not only introduced the Scottish payment but gone from the original campaign ask of £5 to the position that we are in at the moment. That is very important. At the same time, of course, the UK Government was cutting universal credit by £20, and that is the real challenge. For example, we are making £84 million available to local authorities to spend on discretionary housing payments to mitigate directly UK Government welfare policies. That is a frustration and it should be a frustration for everyone in the chamber.

Illegal Migration Bill (Impact on Asylum Seekers)

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with local authorities regarding any preparations for the potential impact of the proposed Illegal Migration Bill on asylum seekers currently accommodated in hotels in Scotland. (S6O-02219)

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

The Scottish Government is deeply concerned that the United Kingdom Government’s Illegal Migration Bill will push people deeper into exploitation and destitution. We have urged the UK Government to stop the bill and focus on improving the asylum system to increase the quality and speed of decisions. That would reduce the number of people who are accommodated in hotels and the risk that they are left in prolonged limbo without the ability to work or access services.

The provision of accommodation for asylum seekers is entirely reserved to the UK Government but, of course, has an impact on our local authorities. I will discuss that with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities spokesperson for community wellbeing when I meet her shortly.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

Moray Council and Health and Social Care Moray will be supporting people who are seeking asylum and arriving in my region over the coming weeks. How can the Scottish Government support the oversight group to ensure that our communities are fully involved in welcoming those residents and that we do not see a repeat of the short-notice changes to accommodation arrangements that have been seen in other areas?

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

The “New Scots Refugee Integration Strategy 2018-2022” provides a framework that can help planning to support people seeking asylum in line with our principle that integration should be supported from day 1 of arrival.

New Scots was developed in partnership by the Scottish Government, COSLA and the Scottish Refugee Council. Asylum accommodation is reserved to the Home Office, which should engage with local authorities as early as possible. We believe that the Home Office also needs to provide long-term funding for local authorities and services that recognises the true costs of asylum dispersal to local authorities and enables better support for people seeking asylum as well as those local communities.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

As the minister has outlined, the Scottish Government, councils and the third sector have worked well to implement Scotland’s new Scots strategy, which supports refugees and asylum seekers into our communities from day 1 of arrival. For Westminster to disrupt that good work would be unforgivable. What communications has the Scottish Government had with UK Government counterparts to express Scottish communities’ opposition to the bill?

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

The Scottish Government has made our opposition to the bill very clear. The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture wrote to the UK Government in March to say that we condemned the bill’s cruel and inhumane provisions and to urge it not to proceed with the bill.

On 25 April, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice again wrote to emphasise Scotland’s significant concerns and our intention to lodge a legislative consent memorandum due to clauses that alter the executive competence of the Scottish ministers, and to point out the opposition of this Parliament to the bill following the passing of a recent motion.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, minister. That concludes portfolio question time. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business to allow front-bench teams to change position should they wish.