Scottish Parliament, 4 May 2023

298 contributions from 68 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning. Our first item of business is general question time. As ever, I would appreciate short and succinct questions and responses to match.

Health Outcomes (Data Gathering)

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government how it is improving data gathering in relation to health outcomes. (S6O-02188)

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

The Scottish Government gathers or supports the gathering of data on health outcomes in a number of ways. We constantly strive to improve in that area, as is noted in our recently published data strategy for health and social care. We work closely with partners such as Public Health Scotland and wider stakeholders to continue to develop outcomes data, and we collect data directly through surveys such as the Scottish health survey and the health and care experience survey.

Recent examples of improvements include the better use of online data collection, better linkage and new analyses of outcomes data. In addition, most of our major programmes of work have dedicated data improvement strands, such as in adult social care and for drug deaths.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh has made it clear that there is

“overwhelming”

“evidence that air pollution harms the health of ... school children”.

To properly protect children, we need better data, which is why I have spent more than six years in calling for air quality monitors to be installed in Scottish schools. I was pleased to see a similar call from the royal college in its recent submission to the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee for air quality monitors to be installed at all urban primary schools for a year, then extended to secondary schools. Will the cabinet secretary now listen to those experts, make that commitment and install those air quality monitors?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

Maurice Golden will be aware that we have undertaken a range of work in order to improve air quality—for example, through the introduction of low-emission zones, the first of which will be in force in Glasgow as of next month. We can already see the impact of that on air quality.

I recognise the direct impact that air quality can have on an individual’s health—in particular, on their respiratory and cardiovascular health—and I am always keen to explore more actions to address those issues. I am aware of the issues that have been raised by the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, and I will certainly give consideration to whether we can take further measures in order to address those concerns.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

On data gathering, will the cabinet secretary outline how the Scottish Government will ensure that the opportunities that are created by new technology, data and analytical services will be delivered by a sustainable, well-trained and supported workforce?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

Data can play an important part in supporting not just the design but the delivery of services. That is why we have the health and social care data strategy, published in February, which sets out the actions that we will take over the coming years to improve data collection and the linkage between different parts of our health and social care system.

Alongside that, data from the use of other forms of technology can play an important part in improving health outcomes.

Some of the work that we are taking forward through the strategy aims to ensure that we deploy technology and use the data from it to its absolute maximum, to improve the way in which services are delivered across the country.

Free School Meals (Secondary Schools Pilot)

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

2. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the plans for a pilot scheme to provide free school meals in secondary schools. (S6O-02189)

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

In Scotland, all primary school pupils in primaries 1 to 5, children in funded early learning and childcare, and eligible pupils in primary 6 through to secondary 6 can already benefit from free meals. That is the most generous provision anywhere in the United Kingdom, and it saves parents £400 per eligible child per year.

We will go further. Our additional investment, which was announced on 15 December, will fund the continued expansion of free school meals to all primary 6 and 7 pupils who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment, and we remain committed to delivering a pilot of free school meals in secondary schools and to continuing to work closely with key delivery partners on our free school meal expansion programme. I would be happy to provide an update once planning work has progressed further.

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

I say at the outset that I really welcome the initiative and think that it is making, and will continue to make, a huge difference across the country.

The minister will know that North Lanarkshire, which includes my Coatbridge and Chryston constituency, has high levels of deprivation. Would she consider making that council area part of the pilot scheme? Initiatives such as club 365, which has been run by North Lanarkshire Council, have shown that there is a real need for them and that they can help a lot of people.

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

Absolutely. It is important that we undertake the planning work required for our free school meal expansion programme, and we will further consider which areas will be included in any pilot in due course. I am happy to keep Fulton MacGregor updated on that.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

According to the Scottish Government’s own reports, the take-up of school meals is down. Why?

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

To begin with, Covid certainly did not help with that, but that is a matter for local authorities, whose responsibility it is to encourage the take-up of free school meals.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

As the minister said, the budget provided for the programme’s expansion to those children in primaries 6 and 7 and in receipt of the Scottish child payment. However, in the absence of the delivery of that, families are paying out more than one third of their benefit to bridge the gap. Does the minister accept that Government delay is costing families, and will she tell them when she will get it sorted out with the data from Social Security Scotland?

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

As I mentioned, in Scotland, we have the most generous free school meal provision anywhere in the UK, with all primary school pupils in primaries 1 to 5, all pupils in special schools and additional support needs schools and eligible pupils in primary 6 through to S6 able to access a free meal. We are continuing that roll-out with children on the Scottish child payment, and I am happy to provide the member with more updates as that progresses.

Scottish Child Payment (Young Parents)

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will introduce a Scottish child payment top-up for parents under the age of 25 who are in receipt of universal credit, as called for by the “End young parent poverty” campaign, in light of it reportedly being supported by more than 30 charities and civil society groups. (S6O-02190)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Universal credit is reserved to Westminster, and the United Kingdom Government has deliberately introduced age discrimination within it. We agree with campaigners that it should be paid at the same amount to everyone.

We already take action to protect people against the impact of UK Government policies, including the bedroom tax and the benefit cap, but we cannot mitigate every action on our fixed budget. The Scottish child payment was doubled in April 2022, to £20 per eligible child, and it increased again to £25 when we extended it to under-16s, in November. That is an increase of 150 per cent in less than eight months.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

The campaign coalition is led by One Parent Family Scotland, but it now has 46 organisations, including Barnardo’s Scotland, the Poverty Alliance, Oxfam Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid and many more. There are clear asks of both the UK and the Scottish Government. More than half of children in Scotland with a mother aged under 25 are living in poverty. I have offered to host a meeting with the campaigners. Will the cabinet secretary join us at that meeting as soon as possible?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Given

that I have just come into post, I am, of course, already due to meet stakeholders and I am setting up meetings with them. Clearly, I am happy to receive any invites for any other opportunities that are coming up.

I would just make it clear to Monica Lennon that we spend £777 million more on social security than we get through the UK Government block grant. That shows that we are determined to move forward and support families and others who are really suffering from the benefits that are given by Westminster. That includes spending £442 million on the Scottish child payment this year and other mitigations that we make to support against, for example, the bedroom tax. I say to Monica Lennon that it is very difficult to mitigate against everything that the UK Government is doing, because that it is a very long list.

National Health Service Dentistry

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what action it will take to reverse the reported decline of NHS dentistry. (S6O-02191)

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

The new policy prospectus that the Scottish Government set out on 18 April commits us to providing sustained and improved equitable national access to national health service dentistry by 2026. That reaffirms our commitment to the sector and to patients in all parts of Scotland.

The previous Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care recently confirmed the continuation of the bridging payment until 31 October 2023, while we prepare for the implementation of payment reform. Payment reform will comprise a new modernised system that will provide NHS dental teams with greater clinical discretion and transparency for NHS patients.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Having to wait until 2026, which is a long time away, does not help people who are waiting to see a dentist right now.

A recent survey found that there has been an exodus of dentists from the NHS. Some 59 per cent of dentists say that, since lockdown, they have reduced the amount of NHS work that they undertake by an average of more than one fifth. For example, the Old Bank dental practice in Tayport in my constituency has shut altogether. The survey found that the situation is only going to get worse.

In a letter dated 20 March, the then Minister for Public Health, Women’s Health and Sport, Maree Todd, said:

“we will confirm the negotiation period and new showcase date as soon as possible.”

There is concern about further delay. When will the revised payment system for NHS dentistry be announced?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I thank Willie Rennie for his question and recognise the amount of work that he has done for his constituents with regard to dentistry services.

The timeline for reform of dentistry services has necessarily been slightly altered by the process that has been under way to replace the First Minister. We still intend to implement dentistry reform on the agreed date, which is 1 November 2023. We will confirm the negotiation period and new showcase date as soon as possible.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

With many people living to be older and, therefore, keeping their teeth for longer, many elderly patients who are housebound or in care homes are presenting with untreated tooth decay and advanced gum disease. In fact, recent studies suggest that periodontal disease and the resulting chronic inflammation are associated with the development of vascular dementia.

Will the minister explain how she plans to properly resource the declining domiciliary dental care service, as Shona Robison promised when she was Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care? At a meeting of the local dental committee, members of Scotland’s dental profession told me that that is simply not happening.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I, too, was at the local dental committee meeting, at which—as Sandesh Gulhane will know—I faced some pretty probing questions. The Scottish Government is absolutely committed to ensuring that we provide a sustainable dental service. I am currently in discussions on how that will happen.

I take on board the points that Dr Gulhane made on care of older people. However, I ask him to note that the Scottish Government is moving on a pathway towards ensuring that everyone gets the right dental care at the right time and in the right place.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

I continue to receive correspondence from constituents who find themselves unable to access non-emergency dental care because dental practices in Inverclyde remain closed to new NHS patients. Will the minister outline what is being done

to support dental practices that currently offer NHS treatment to begin taking on such patients?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

We are constantly in dialogue with dentists to ensure that we are doing that; my officials meet dentists regularly. We have introduced a number of processes—for example, funding dentists to the extent of £100,000 for additional practices, and providing additional funding of up to £25,000 for extra support

in areas where there is greatest patient need.

Digital Prescribing and Dispensing

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

5. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the digital prescribing and dispensing pathways programme. (S6O-02192)

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I am sorry that I did not respond immediately, Presiding Officer; I did not hear the question.

The Presiding Officer

I ask Ms Mackay to repeat question 5.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the digital prescribing and dispensing pathways programme.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I offer my sincere apologies, Presiding Officer.

The

digital prescribing and dispensing pathways programme is on track to replace the current paper prescription system in Scotland, with a view to establishing a digital approach by the end of this parliamentary session.

The early focus is on in-hours fixed general practice prescribing and community pharmacy dispensing across Scotland. Initial user engagement is complete, and planning is under way for the design of an initial prototype approach. I expect to be able to provide more detail later this year, subject to on-going work on the business case.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

I thank the minister for that answer.

Last week, I met a group of local general practitioners who told me about technical problems that they are having in using the electronic system, which have resulted in patients waiting for paper prescriptions that GPs need to print and sign. They also asked about potential expansion of the programme to secondary care patients, who need to wait for paper prescriptions from hospital doctors. Can the minister confirm whether the programme will be progressed in order to alleviate the burden on general practices and hospitals?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I heard that question; I thank Rona Mackay for her supplementary.

Digital prescribing is a strategic priority and the DPDP programme will focus on primary care and GPs. It will improve the user and patient experience while reducing use of paper prescriptions. We expect to commence implementation for in-practice GP prescribing and dispensing from 2024-25.

With regard to secondary care, hospital electronic prescribing and medicines administration is being rolled out across Scotland and has already been implemented in 13 NHS boards.

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill (Victims Consultation)

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

6. To ask the Scottish Government which victims groups it has consulted with on its proposed Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. (S6O-02193)

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

The bill is directly informed by the work of the victims task force and the Lady Dorrian review and governance groups, all of which include representation from victims organisations. We have also engaged directly with a range of victims groups, as well as with victims, survivors and their advocates and families, through two public consultations and the jury research engagement events that fed into the bill.

Ministers and officials regularly meet victims organisations and meet directly with individual victims and survivors to discuss a range of issues, many of which are relevant to the content of the bill.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that answer.

The bill is a victims bill in name only. My colleague Jamie Greene has proposed a true victims law that would put the interests of victims at the heart of the justice system. In particular, it promises to implement Michelle’s law, which would prevent criminals, when they are released on licence, from entering the local areas of victims. That measure was promised by Humza Yousaf when he was the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, but it does not appear in the bill. Why not?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Let me reassure Mr Stewart that the bill, when it comes to advancing the rights of victims and witnesses, is one of the most significant pieces of legislation to be introduced in the history of this Parliament, and will represent transformational change that is informed by the very strongest of evidence and debate.

Building on our engagement with victims and witnesses, we have a statutory automatic right to anonymity for victims of sexual offences, new specialist courts for sexual offences and the abolition of the not proven verdict.

With respect to Michelle’s law, I again reassure Mr Stewart that the Parole Board for Scotland has already adjusted its rules in order to give appropriate consideration of the very important matter that he raises.

We are getting on with the job, representing the needs of victims and witnesses and ensuring that they are, indeed, at the very heart of our justice system.

Palliative Care (Hospice Funding)

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will increase funding for hospices to ensure that they can manage any rising costs, in light of the reported increase in the number of people in need of palliative care. (S6O-02194)

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

We are considering the issues that the hospice sector raised at its meeting in March with the then Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and the then Minister for Public Health, Women’s Health and Sport, including funding and the long-term sustainability of the hospice sector.

We are aware of Scottish research that shows a rise in the number of people with palliative care need, and the Scottish Government is developing a new palliative and end-of-life care strategy to ensure that everyone who needs it can access seamless, timely and high-quality palliative care.

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

Although I welcome the pay uplift for national health service staff under the agenda for change in Scotland, hospices are crying out for funding to help them to match that uplift and ensure that their salaries remain competitive with those of the NHS.

Considering that Ayrshire Hospice is facing the perfect storm of rising staff costs, increasing energy and running costs and a tough fundraising environment, what discussions have ministers had with the sector on a new model of funding to help hospices to retain staff? Will the minister commit to meeting the chief executive officer of Ayrshire Hospice, Tracy Flynn, to discuss its issues with funding and how its work impacts the people of Ayrshire?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I thank Sharon Dowey for her question. As I said, we have met and started discussions with the hospice sector. I would be happy to meet more to hear its concerns. We have to recognise the hospice sector and support it as best we can, given all the impacts on it.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes general questions.

Highly Protected Marine Areas

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. Last night, the Scottish Conservatives led a debate and vote here in Parliament on Scottish National Party-Green plans to introduce highly protected marine areas. Those reckless proposals would ban fishing in large parts of Scotland’s seas. They would risk thousands of jobs. They would be devastating to coastal communities. The First Minister has said that his Government will not impose highly protected marine areas on any community that is vehemently opposed to them. So, quite simply, can he define what he means in this case by “community” and say what level of opposition will be considered vehement?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Before I respond to Douglas Ross, I want to recognise that today is international firefighters day. I take this opportunity to thank firefighters across Scotland for their selfless contribution to keeping us safe, and I pay tribute to those firefighters who have lost their lives serving our communities, including Barry Martin—I know that his bravery will serve as a constant and continual reminder of the courage that our firefighters demonstrate in the line of duty each and every day.

On the important question that Douglas Ross raises, let me just remind him that it was also a Scottish Conservative manifesto pledge to introduce highly protected marine areas. In fact, Douglas Ross stood on not one but two manifestos that pledged to introduce highly protected marine areas in some shape or form.

I had the misfortune of hearing Rachael Hamilton’s interview on “Good Morning Scotland” a couple of days ago, in which she set out, I think, four different positions on HPMAs in around five minutes. What we have made absolutely clear is that this Government will not impose HPMAs on any community that vehemently opposes them.

We have done the consultation and we have had an enormous response to it—[

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

If I could have a moment, First Minister, I would like to say that I would be grateful if, when a member is speaking, other members were listening.

The First Minister

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

We have done the consultation and there has been a significant response. It is only right that we now analyse those responses. Of course, Màiri McAllan and I have committed to making sure that we engage with our coastal and island communities that may well be affected by HPMAs.

With regard to what consent mechanism we will use and how we will define “community” in terms of opposition or consent, that is something on which we will engage directly with the community. That is why we have done a consultation at early inception stage. It would be completely wrong of us to pre-empt a decision about what consent mechanism we will end up putting in place or to set the parameters here today, because, of course, that would risk excluding some voices that should be heard.

We will not apologise for taking the necessary action that we need to in order to protect our biodiversity. It is incumbent not only on the Government of the day but on all of us to ensure that we tackle the twin crises of the climate emergency and the loss of our biodiversity.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I begin by associating myself with the remarks of the First Minister on international firefighters day. My colleague Russell Findlay will speak in the members’ business debate on that very issue, which will take place immediately after First Minister’s question time. We all celebrate and recognise the bravery of our firefighters, who do tremendous work day in, day out, putting their lives at risk, which we saw so starkly with the sad loss of Barry Martin earlier this year.

The First Minister’s answer was long in length but short on detail. What would be completely wrong is to give reassurances to coastal communities that everything is fine because, if they are a community that is vehemently opposed to an HPMA, the HPMA will not be introduced, but then be completely unable to define what a community is. The First Minister is trying to give reassurances with no substance behind them.

Speaking about behind, the First Minister just needs to look behind him to Karen Adam, who said in Parliament two days ago:

“we need clarity on how those communities will be defined and how we will gauge their vehement opposition.—[

Official Report

, 2 May 2023; c 78.]

We do. I am saying that and even the SNP members are saying it. However, it is already crystal clear that those communities are vehemently opposed to the plans. The First Minister should just listen to what they are saying.

The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation said that the plans could have a “catastrophic” effect. A fisherman from the Outer Hebrides said that it will be

“absolutely devastating and you’ll see a loss of population in these areas akin to the Highland Clearances”.

The Tiree Community Development Trust said:

“It will be the end of our community.”

A development trust said that the SNP-Green plans will be

“the end of our community.”

Those are damning verdicts on the SNP Government’s proposals from the people who know the sector best. Therefore, why is the First Minister pressing ahead with a policy that will devastate coastal, rural and fishing communities?

The First Minister

I remind Douglas Ross of the commitment in the Scottish Conservatives’ manifesto n

ot that many years ago. It said:

“We will review the current Marine Protected Areas in Scottish waters, with a view to expanding their extent, and pilot the introduction of Highly Protected Marine Areas.”

The Conservatives are now saying that they are for pilots. Rachael Hamilton gave a very different articulation on the radio a few days ago.

[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

The First Minister

We know that Douglas Ross is known for flip-flopping all over the place on any issue of the day. He is flip-flopping on the issue of highly protected marine areas.

Karen Adam was absolutely right, of course. We will not only define communities; we will define what consent or what opposition is. What I am saying to Douglas Ross very clearly is that we should analyse the huge number of consultation responses that we have had from those communities before we decide for them or impose on them or, indeed, exclude any of those communities from the discussion.

What we should all absolutely agree on is the fact that we have to take action to ensure that our marine environment is sustainable for the future. It will not help our fishing communities if that marine environment is not sustainable. We want to ensure that it is so that the future of our fishing industry can continue for many years. I am committed to doing that not to the communities involved but, I hope, with the communities involved. [

Applause

.]

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

There is muted applause from behind the First Minister. If only he could see the glum faces of SNP members—it is incredible.

It is not only coastal, fishing and rural communities—which the First Minister is seemingly happy to ignore—that are against the plans. Last night, in the chamber, three senior SNP MSPs—all former Government ministers—voted against their party on the fishing ban. Let us listen to what they had to say.

Fergus Ewing said:

“this issue will haunt the Scottish Government.”

Alasdair Allan said:

“I have never known my constituency to be ... so unanimously opposed to any single policy ... in all my time”

as an MSP. Kate Forbes said:

“if the proposals go ahead as planned, the rarest species in our coastal areas and islands will soon be people.”—[

Official Report

, 2 May 2023; c 86, 81, 92.]

Does Humza Yousaf realise that not only is he out of touch with coastal communities, he is out of touch with members of his own party?

The First Minister

Again, I remind Douglas Ross of the fact that the Parliament accepted an amended motion by a majority. Of course, we, too, accepted and voted for amendments from the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats. A number of parties came together to propose amendments, which we accepted, and the majority of members agreed to the motion.

I say to Douglas Ross that there are good examples of where we have a no-take zone, including Lamlash Bay. The community campaigned for that. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

The First Minister

The community wanted that in its local area. Based on the studies that have been co-ordinated by the community group, we have seen that, since that protection was put in place, commercially important species such as the king scallop and the European lobster have increased in size, age and density. That is a good example of where we have worked with a community in order for a no-take zone to be implemented.

We are not talking about imposition; we are talking about working with communities throughout the country. That is the right thing to do.

The trouble with the Conservatives is that they demand that we take action on the climate emergency and that we take action to reverse some of the negative impacts and effects of the loss of biodiversity but, whenever we propose action, they oppose it every single step of the way. That is not going to help our climate, and it certainly is not going to help our fishing industry or our marine environment in the future. [

Applause

.]

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Gosh, it is getting worse. If I had another question, there might be no response from his own party to an answer from the First Minister. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Quiet, please. Thank you.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Humza Yousaf was speaking about the response from the Scottish Conservatives. He should be worried about the response from his own back benchers and the rebellion that we have already seen. It took Nicola Sturgeon eight years to have her first major rebellion within the SNP ranks; it has taken Humza Yousaf less than eight weeks to achieve the same. He is clearly losing his grip on his party because he insists on pursuing these extreme policies, which are opposed by the very communities he wants to impose them on.

These reckless plans would ban fishing across much of our sea. They would put thousands of jobs at risk and devastate coastal, rural and fishing areas. Coastal communities, the fishing sector and even Humza Yousaf’s own MSPs have all called for the SNP Government to ditch its anti-fishing plans, yet the First Minister is ploughing ahead with them regardless. Instead of arrogantly dismissing the many valid concerns, as he has done so far, will he now do the right thing and scrap the plans?

The First Minister

What we are doing—and what we have done from the very beginning of this process—is engage with our coastal and island communities. In total, we have had over 40 meetings with stakeholders and I have already stated that the cabinet secretary will continue that engagement.

For example, prior to the consultation even being launched, there were meetings with over 20 stakeholder groups, including some of those that Douglas Ross has mentioned, such as the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, the Scottish Creel Fishermen’s Federation, aquaculture groups such as Salmon Scotland, important environmental non-governmental organisations such as Scottish Environment LINK and community representatives such as the Coastal Communities Network and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

I appreciate that members are here because they have strong opinions on many issues, but I would be grateful if they could keep those opinions to themselves while other members are on their feet.

The First Minister

They are not willing to hear the facts and that is the problem, Presiding Officer, because the facts are that we have engaged, even prior to the consultation.

I have given an absolute commitment that we will continue to engage and I have given a commitment, time and time again, in public, that we will not impose HPMAs on any community that is vehemently opposed to them. For Douglas Ross to stand there and talk about losing grip of a party when he has been leader—[

Interruption

.] The Conservatives have had the longest attempted coup in Scottish political history. Why does Jamie Greene or Liam Kerr not just stand up and put Douglas Ross out of his misery? [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

It is hardly a surprise that Douglas Ross talks about losing grip on a political party. Even he has lost faith in his own political party: he spent the entire Easter recess urging his supporters to vote for the Scottish Labour Party, Presiding Officer.

Finally, Douglas Ross has got his finger on the pulse—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members—quiet, please. Thank you.

The First Minister

Douglas Ross has finally caught up with Scottish public opinion. Even Douglas Ross has lost faith in his own leadership of the Scottish Conservative Party.

Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018 (Review)

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. First, I would like to join others in recognising international firefighters day and in paying tribute to all those who run towards danger in order to protect their fellow citizens. In particular, our thoughts are with the family of Barry Martin, who so tragically lost his life at just 38 years old.

This morning, the Criminal Justice Committee published its review of the Government’s Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018. The act was passed by this Parliament in February 2018 to give greater protections to victims, particularly women and children, from coercion and abuse. However, today—five years on—the committee concludes that progress on implementing the changes has been far too slow. In the words of one expert who gave evidence, the experience of victims and survivors is still “unremittingly grim”.

When the 2018 act was introduced, the then justice secretary, Humza Yousaf, said that he hoped victims would be able to seek support with the confidence that the law was behind them. When so many women and children are still being failed, does the First Minister believe that his Government has lived up to that ambition?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I believe that we have, but that there is always more that we can, and should, do. I welcome the publication of the Criminal Justice Committee’s report on its post-legislative scrutiny of the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018. We have taken action, not just as a Government—in fairness, there has been a collective effort by the Parliament to respond to the needs of the victims of domestic abuse. Of course, we will give careful consideration to the report’s eight recommendations before responding formally. However, I will be clear that any form of abuse is unacceptable, and I am sure that there is collective agreement on that.

The new domestic abuse offence, which has been heralded as gold standard legislation, has given more powers to police and the courts to punish the perpetrators of abuse and protect people who are at risk. However, as the committee’s report highlights, clearly, there is still more work to be done to improve the justice system’s response to domestic abuse and for survivors of domestic abuse. We will work with justice agencies to consider the recommendations.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The First Minister suggests that the ambition has been met. I suggest that he listens to and reads the testimony of victims on how they feel about the process. The act was marked as world leading but, as usual, the Scottish National Party Government is content to talk up change and settle for less. It is not just this legislation that has been neglected across our justice system: the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 has never been enforced, there is a court backlog of more than 27,000 criminal cases and there are 816 fewer police officers since 2020.

When the First Minister was justice secretary, there was a damning review of the police complaints and disciplinary system, which reported evidence of misogyny, racism and serious discrimination issues within Police Scotland. In 2020, the then justice secretary, Humza Yousaf, told the chamber that the Government would

“move at pace” in its response, and that there would be

“no dithering, nor will there be delay.”—[

Official Report

, 25 November 2020, c 37.]

However, “Newsnight” has spoken to women about the misogyny that they faced while they were working in our police force. They say that many women are too scared to speak out and that many have been forced to leave the police. Is that the decisive action that the First Minister was talking about?

The First Minister

Decisive action has led to those court backlogs falling. The reason why the court backlogs increased so much was because of the global pandemic, and I think that we can, and should, all recognise that. Since the SNP has been in Government, decisive action has led to the lowest crime figures on record. Our resolve to fund the police and our record of doing that, ensuring that more police officers are on the beat, are good. That is why we have more police officers per head than in England and Wales.

In terms of misogyny, we are taking decisive action on the back of an excellent report by Baroness Kennedy in relation to what more we can do legislatively and as a society to tackle that. On some of the concerns that have been raised about misogyny in the police force, I know from my engagement with Chief Constable Iain Livingstone how seriously he takes that issue in policing, and I know that he has taken action to address it. The Government and the police take any concerns raised against police officers extremely seriously. When things go wrong, the police must be held to account. That is why I am pleased that some of the whistleblowing policies in relation to Police Scotland have been updated by the Scottish Police Authority, in direct response to the work that we commissioned from Dame Elish Angiolini in 2018—the review of police complaints handling, investigations and misconduct issues.

Those are the decisive actions that we have taken. Am I saying that everything is perfect? Of course not. There is more that we can do for those who serve in our police force as well as the public that we seek to serve. The Government has a good track record of tackling the issues that matter to people and keeping people safe, up and down Scotland.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

I am sorry, but that is a complacent answer from the First Minister. He seems to be in denial. The fact that female police officers feel compelled to speak to the media in order to inspire change from the Government is a record of failure, not one of success or progress. There is chaos across our criminal justice system. Courts are backlogged, prisons are overcrowded and the police force is being starved of resources.

Is not the problem with the First Minister that he likes to talk big, but consistently fails to deliver? This is an incompetent and dysfunctional SNP Government which, after 16 years, has left every Scottish institution weaker. We have a justice system that too often fails victims, a transport system that too often fails communities, an education system that too often fails our children and a health service that too often fails staff and patients. Is it any wonder that, every day, more and more people are losing trust and faith in this failing SNP Government?

The First Minister

Anas Sarwar talked about rhetoric, but I gave facts—facts that he cannot and should not avoid. In each and every department, we can look at the Government’s achievements.

In health, we have record spending of more than £19 billion to invest in the national health service in this financial year. NHS staffing is up to historically high levels. Our accident and emergency services continue to be the best-performing such services anywhere in the UK.

In education, we have not just record investment but record high numbers of school leavers who have gone on to education, employment or training. On attaining one or more passes at Scottish credit and qualifications framework level 4 or better, we have the narrowest gap on record between school leavers from the most deprived areas and school leavers from the least deprived areas.

As I said, crime is at the lowest level since 1974—the figure is down by 42 per cent under the SNP. We have the highest number of police officers at any time in comparison with when Labour was in power. We have more police officers per head than in England and Wales.

On the economy, unemployment is at record low levels. I could go on and on and on.

Although the SNP has—undoubtedly—had some of the most difficult and challenging weeks, we still enjoy incredible popular support, and Anas Sarwar is still in second place, which betrays his lack of ambition. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

The First Minister

After wall-to-wall negative coverage of the SNP for five to six weeks, Anas Sarwar is happy to be in second place—that is his ambition for the Labour Party, and that is why the people of Scotland have not trusted Labour in the past 16 years to be in government.

Violence Against Young People (Government Action)

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government plans to take in light of his declared support for the

Daily Record’s

“Our Kids … Our Future” campaign to tackle violence against young people. (S6F-02070)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Like many others, I commend the

Daily Record

for drawing attention to an incredibly important issue. We must all confront the causes of violence, address its consequences, minimise future victimisation and stop violence from a young age. I call on anybody who experiences or witnesses violence or who sees it on social media, as highlighted by the campaign, to report it.

It is for all of us in society to confront the issue. We do not have power over social media platforms, but the UK Government does. Its Online Safety Bill, which is progressing through Westminster, could be a means to ensure that social media companies take more seriously their responsibility to contain violent content. I will write to the UK Government to make that case and I would welcome Mr Findlay’s support.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

When Abbie Jarvis was violently attacked by another teenager, every brutal moment was recorded and circulated on social media. The First Minister says that he backs the important campaign against such sickening attacks. Abbie lives in fear and cannot leave home by herself or return to school, and her mum, Angela, struggles to explain why there has been no justice. Why are Abbie and other child victims paying the price? When there are no consequences for serious acts of violence, Angela asks this: what message does that send to the children of Scotland?

The First Minister

I am really grateful to Abbie and her mum, Angela, for speaking out; I have read their testimony in the

Daily Record

on a number of occasions. I am grateful to them and the other young people who have chosen to speak out after such horrific incidents.

We are keen to back the

Daily Record’s

calls by working with our local authorities to ensure that there are safe places for teenagers to go. We also want to do more work with social media companies to prevent violent content from being shared, which is why I will write to the UK Government on that matter.

Another ask of the

Record’s

campaign is that

“Every adult ... has a role to play—so take the lead in your community to help local children feel cared for and included”.

I do not think that the response to that is to lock up every under-18 who commits a violent act, throw away the key and forget about them and their future. We must understand the root cause of violent crime. A public health approach has been taken to that in Glasgow, which has worked well over many years.

Of course there should be consequences for violence, but that should not be about incarcerating young people; we should work with them to reduce violence and take a public health approach, which I am committed to doing.

The Presiding Officer

I call Michelle Thomson.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I am sorry. My question is a constituency supplementary question rather than a supplementary question.

The Presiding Officer

I call Katy Clark.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

The Scottish Government has a goal of ensuring that robust community justice interventions are available across Scotland, but the community justice budget is facing real-terms cuts over the next year. Given that the Scottish Government’s stated intention is to increase use of community justice, will the First Minister look at that again?

The Presiding Officer

I think that there might be some misunderstanding. Is that a supplementary question with particular regard to question 3?

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

Yes—that was my understanding, Presiding Officer.

The First Minister

I am happy to answer the question, because Katy Clark has raised a really important point. I am full square behind the aims that she speaks about in relation to investing more in community justice, which I believe is a better route than, for example, incarceration. We know that if we divert people to community justice alternatives, there is the ability to prevent reoffending, for example. Therefore, I am more than happy to continue to look at every budget line I can—in particular, that important budget line. We are operating within a fixed budget, which we have limited powers to increase, and that is why I spoke yesterday about making really tough choices. Whether we are in Government or Opposition, it is important that we all engage in that conversation in a grown-up fashion. It is very clear that Katy Clark is up for that conversation.

Anti-poverty Summit (Update)

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

4. To ask the First Minister whether he will provide an update on the anti-poverty summit that took place on Wednesday 3 May. (S6F-02064)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I am very grateful to the more than 80 people, including party leaders, who joined the anti-poverty summit. I hope that they will all agree with me that what we heard, particularly from people with direct experience of poverty, confirmed that poverty is the biggest challenge that we face, as a country. Although we have already acted to tackle the pressure on those who are most in need, of course more must be done.

We have fixed budgets and money is tight and needs to be stretched very far, so we must be hard-headed and realistic about the action that has to be taken. That means making some really tough choices that need to be bold. As we heard specifically, we have to be brave. All of us, including party leaders and me, as First Minister, were challenged to be brave by people with direct experience of poverty. The Government that I lead will be bold and will consider what we can do in relation to taxation, the tough decisions that have to be made and the targeted investments that we have to make.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

I thank the First Minister for that response. A wellbeing economy and a fair social security system are two key components in tackling poverty. Many experts agree that the United Kingdom Tory Government’s policies, such as cutting universal credit, are worsening poverty. [

Interruption

.] Of course, the minimum wage, which was set by Westminster, is well below the living wage that would help people to meet the cost of living. Does the First Minister agree with me that, until this Parliament has full powers over the economy and social security, the UK Government must step up to the plate and use its powers to support rather than to punish people? Can he outline the steps that the Scottish Government will take to build on its progressive record?

The First Minister

Whenever anybody talks about poverty, we always hear groans from the Conservative Party. Instead of groaning, they should face up to the reality that their actions—including more than a decade of austerity, the hard Brexit that has been imposed on us and a mini-budget that wreaked complete havoc on our economy—have pushed more people into poverty, and not just in Scotland but up and down the UK. Instead of groaning, they should face up to that fact and take some responsibility. [

Applause

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

The First Minister

The UK Government should match the ambition of the Scottish Government on tackling and reducing poverty, and that includes introducing the equivalent of the Scottish child payment by reinstating the universal credit uplift at £25 a week and extending support to other means-tested benefits.

Were the UK Government to reverse key reforms that have been introduced since 2015, that would put £780 million into the pockets of Scottish households, and it would lift 70,000 people, including 30,000 children, out of poverty this year.

Let me make it clear: where I can work constructively with the UK Government on reducing poverty, I will do so. It was one of the first topics that I raised in my meeting with the Prime Minister recently. Where we have the power in this Parliament to go further, I give an absolute commitment that we will use powers to their absolute maximum effect. We must all make a collective effort in order to reduce poverty—particularly child poverty.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

I noted the First Minister’s headline-grabbing announcement prior to the summit of £4.5 million for after-school clubs. Does he accept that that is a drop in the ocean compared with the £1 billion financial black hole that the Government created in local authority funding through its relentless slashing of council budgets? Does he also accept that it is time for the Scottish National Party to use every lever at its disposal to improve people’s lives?

During the summit, which we attended in good faith, we outlined a number of areas where the Government could take immediate action, including wiping out of school meals debt, improvement of debt support in communities, freezing of water charges and provision of a water rebate. The First Minister said that he is listening, so when will he get on and take action in those areas to make a real difference right now?

The First Minister

The difficulty, of course, with all those policy proposals is that Paul O’Kane did not outline how on earth we would pay for them. That is the problem—we have a Labour Party that demands action but does not do the grown-up politics of putting forward how it would pay for measures. That is the reality of government. I know that the Labour Party has not been in government for more than 16 years, but it has to be able to say how it will pay for those measures—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members, let us treat one another with courtesy and respect.

The First Minister

Labour shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves said that

“principles don’t change but the priorities and the policies must change according to the circumstances.”

I agree with her. We have to ensure that every single penny that we spend is targeted at those who need it most. I am more than happy to engage with Paul O’Kane constructively on issues that he has raised today, but we absolutely must be realistic. It is not just about coming up with potential solutions and proposals; we have to say how on earth we are going to pay for them. I make no apology whatsoever when I say that I believe in progressive taxation. I hope that that is a call that Labour can back, too.

Forestry Grants (Peatlands)

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government's response is to a recent report suggesting that current forestry grant funding rules are supporting projects that are harmful to peatlands, and which, as a result, generate more CO2

than they sequester. (S6F-02067)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We do not agree that our woodland creation is harmful for peatlands. No Government is doing more in these islands to ensure that woodlands and forestry help to tackle climate change.

Scotland’s forests remove more than 7 million tonnes of CO2

a year from the atmosphere—about 14 per cent of all Scotland’s gross emissions. All grant-funded planting must comply with the United Kingdom forestry standard to maximise CO2

removals and minimise emissions.

Planting on deep peat is, of course, banned. Guidance on ground preparation was strengthened in 2021, and we will continue to use the best available science and evidence to protect our environment, sequester carbon and get Scotland to net zero.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

Even the Government’s own scientists, including those in Forest Research, are suggesting that even 10cm of deep peat might be worth protecting, and certainly that 30cm of deep peat should be protected.

The report highlights that trees have been planted using the wrong techniques, which dries up peatlands and sends organic matter down our rivers, which acidifies them, thereby killing salmon, and causes more flooding. To keep carbon in the ground, the report says that we need to keep peatlands wet. Will the First Minister tighten up the regulations for forestry and peatlands and ensure that the right trees are planted in the right place at the right time?

The First Minister

I make the point again to Brian Whittle

that we have a very ambitious peatland restoration programme. The new policy prospectus that I announced just a couple of weeks ago promises to deliver up to 110,000 hectares of restored peatland by 2026, and Brian Whittle knows that our target in relation to 2030 is to restore 250,000 hectares. That is something that we are keen to do to build capacity, because we know that we need to go faster than we are currently going.

We are looking very closely at the report that Brian Whittle referenced, but Forest Research recently carried out quite a comprehensive study on CO2

uptake achieved through creation of different types of woodland. The key finding of the Forest Research study is that all types of woodland, including conifer, broadleaf and natural recolonisation woodland, have important roles to play

We will listen to any experts in that regard, and we are looking at the report that Brian Whittle referenced in his question.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

As is to be expected, there is a range of opinions on the subject, but Scotland’s forests are an important carbon sink. The strategy of having the right tree in the right place is crucial, but does the First Minister share my view that expanding, restoring and improving forests and woodlands has a key role to play in achieving our net zero targets and restoring Scotland’s natural environment?

The First Minister

Yes, absolutely. Currently more than 75 per cent of woodland creation across the UK is in Scotland. Scotland’s forests and forestry sector are making a vital contribution to our reaching our climate change targets. We have set out bold plans in the climate change plan to increase woodland cover to 21 per cent by 2032, by planting than 18,000 hectares a year, including 4,000 hectares of native woodland. We have also taken steps to further protect and restore our iconic Atlantic rainforest and Caledonian pine woods. Our package of measures will deliver towards net zero and restore the biodiversity that underpins our economy and, importantly, the wellbeing of our planet and of local communities.

Deaf People (Communication Needs)

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

6. Presiding Officer, for the record, I will ask my question first in spoken English and then in signed and spoken British Sign Language, to raise awareness.

To ask the First Minister, in light of this being deaf awareness week, what work the Scottish Government is undertaking to ensure that deaf people have their communication needs met. (S6F-02068)

I will now ask the question in BSL.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank Karen Adam for the question and recognise the incredible work that she has done to raise awareness of the issues of deaf people. A number of weeks ago, I had the great pleasure of meeting her father, who has also been an advocate and a champion for raising issues around deaf awareness and BSL, and for the use of BSL in particular.

I also wish all those who are marking deaf awareness week all the very best for the awareness-raising activity and events that I know are planned.

Since 2014, we have provided over £5.5 million to promote the implementation of the see hear strategy. A refreshed strategy for 2024 will be designed collaboratively with stakeholders and, importantly and crucially, with people who have lived experience. It will be focused on living a good life with sensory loss. Of course, communication plays a key and vital role in that.

For BSL users, the Scottish Government funds Contact Scotland BSL, which enables deaf and deafblind British Sign Language users to telephone any number, via video relay interpreters, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

We are investing in two technological solutions to improve communication for deaf people through our CivTech programme: a centralised booking system for BSL/English interpreters, and, crucially, an online concierge service that enables access to public services.

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

I am a CODA, which is a child of a deaf adult, and I grew up learning BSL alongside English. The importance of the right to be understood in one’s own language cannot be understated. The deaf community deserves to feel included, but BSL provision across Scotland can be a postcode lottery. In Scotland, we pride ourselves on being a progressive nation. On BSL, however, we must go further and faster.

Will the First Minister commit to providing a space where stakeholders and I can highlight to the Scottish Government what we must do to protect the future of our precious minority language in Scotland?

The First Minister

Yes, I can absolutely commit to that. Once again, I thank Karen Adam for the incredible work that she has done in her time in Parliament and before that to raise issues that are affecting our deaf community in Scotland.

We have established a short-life working group for the development of the British Sign Language national plan for 2023 to 2029, which is due to be published in October. The national plan will provide a real opportunity to advance our approach to BSL. We will also establish an implementation governance group, for when the national plan has been published, to ensure that we can deliver on those commitments.

I am clear that I expect stakeholders to be fully involved in this work, particularly those with direct lived experience. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills will be happy to meet Karen Adam to explore those issues in more detail.

The Presiding Officer

We move to constituency and general supplementaries.

Sudan

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

The situation in Sudan is worsening by the day. The sister-in-law of one my Glasgow Kelvin constituents is currently trapped in Khartoum as violence worsens across the region. I understand that the Eritrean police and security services are actively rounding up those attempting to flee. I also gather that at least three people have died while being transported from Khartoum to Shagarab refugee camp and that many more people have been kidnapped while they are trying to leave the capital city. Does the First Minister agree that that underlines the need for safe and legal routes to seek asylum within the United Kingdom? Can he provide assurances that Scotland will do all that it can within its devolved competencies to support victims caught up in this awful nightmare?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank Kaukab Stewart for raising this important issue in our Parliament. I agree with all that the member has said. The Scottish Government has consistently sought and advocated for safe and legal routes to enable people to seek safety under the refugee convention—a convention that the UK was the first to sign. The majority in this Parliament made that clear in a debate on Tuesday, as well. Without such routes, people will continue to be forced into dangerous journeys that put their lives at further risk. The member has just mentioned countries where we can see that scenario taking place.

What we need is a humane asylum system in which people’s cases are dealt with swiftly and fairly, not the UK Government’s Illegal Migration Bill, which I believe that Douglas Ross voted for in earlier stages in the House of Commons. That is not fit for purpose; it is a complete abdication of international responsibility and a complete abdication of our moral responsibility. We will be engaging with the UK Government urgently, pleading with it to do the right thing. If we can do the right thing for those seeking to flee from war in Ukraine—as we absolutely should; it is the right thing to do—we should make sure that we are doing that for everybody who is fleeing war right across the world, regardless of which continent they are fleeing from, their colour of skin or their religion.

NHS Forth Valley (Complaints)

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

NHS Forth Valley continues to struggle, even under special measures. Complaints are going up and performance targets are falling short. Between April 2022 and January 2023, 1,704 complaints were received, which is an increase of 30 per cent compared with the same period the year before. Patients are clearly still not receiving the care that they deserve. What further action can be taken to ensure that the upturn in complaints is rectified as a matter of urgency?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Alexander Stewart is right to raise the issue, which he has, of course, raised before with me. That is one of the reasons why, when I was health secretary, I took the action to escalate NHS Forth Valley to the second-highest level of escalation. Part of the reason for that was the complaints handling, the culture and the performance in NHS Forth Valley. As health secretary at the time, I offered a meeting between Alexander Stewart and Christine McLaughlin, who is heading the oversight group. I do not know whether that meeting has taken place. If not, I am more than happy to facilitate that from my office.

There is an improvement plan in place. I think that we all recognise that, given the nature of the challenges that NHS Forth Valley is facing, the improvement plan will take time to embed. However, I am assured that improvement is being made and I will get the latest update from the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care after First Minister’s question time. If Alexander Stewart wishes to meet the cabinet secretary to get a further update, we will make that happen.

Buffer Zones (Legislation)

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

Now that the work of the short-life working group on buffer zones has concluded, does the First Minister agree that all of our collective focus should be on delivering national legislation as the most robust way to put buffer zones in place in Scotland, and that our collective aim should be to bring forward the final proposal for my member’s bill before summer recess?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I absolutely and fully agree with that and I extend my thanks to the members of the working group for helping us to get to this point. Gillian Mackay is right that the focus should now be on that national approach. I can give an absolute commitment—I know that Gillian Mackay knows this—that we will work closely with her on her member’s bill, which is of incredible importance. It is vital to ensure that women get safe access to health care and I and the Government are fully supportive of those safe access zones.

I know that my officials have been working at pace with Gillian Mackay in relation to the development of the legislation and I am pleased to hear her ambition around its introduction before summer recess. I look forward to engaging with her personally as well as with the cabinet secretary and the ministers who are involved.

Rapes and Sexual Assaults in Hospitals (Data Recording)

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

More than 6,500 rapes and sexual assaults were reported to have taken place in hospitals in England and Wales between 2019 and 2022. However, Police Scotland does not record such data and, therefore, we do not know the scale of the problem in Scottish hospital wards.

A constituent has written to me and said that she was—rightly—unsettled by that alarming oversight. What action will the Government take to ensure that appropriate and accurate data is collected to identify the scale of the problem?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Pam Gosal raises a very important matter. I do not have the detail in front of me in relation to the data that is, or is not, collected. However, I promise Pam Gosal that I will request, as she has asked me to do, the data that is collected in that regard. I will ask and explore whether we and Police Scotland can do more in relation to recording that data and will write to the member with further detail.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s questions. There will be a short suspension to allow members to leave the chamber and for people to leave the public gallery.

12:46 Meeting suspended.

12:47 On resuming—

Firefighters Memorial Day 2023

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-08571, in the name of Bill Kidd, on firefighters memorial day 2023. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put.

I invite members who wish to participate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible. I call Bill Kidd to open the debate. You have around seven minutes, Mr Kidd.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament recognises 4 May as International Firefighters’ Day (IFFD), which is also known as Firefighters’ Memorial Day, and is an annual observance to honour the sacrifice of firefighters who have lost their lives in the line of duty; thanks firefighters serving communities across Scotland, including the crew at Knightswood Fire Station in Glasgow Anniesland, for their tremendous contribution in ensuring people's safety; acknowledges the courage and dedication of generations of firefighters; understands that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is the fourth largest serving firefighting force in the world; remembers and honours the firefighters who have sacrificed their lives in the line of duty; understands that a minute’s silence will take place at 12 noon on 4 May 2023, on the forecourts of fire stations and other fire and rescue workplaces; notes the work of the Fire Brigades Union in its Red Plaque project and DECON campaign; further notes the view that all fire stations should have safe work practices, including full decontamination facilities, to ensure that firefighters and their families are not exposed to harmful particles; notes the classification by the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer, in July 2022, of the occupational exposure of firefighters as carcinogenic to humans, which increases the likelihood of cancer, and notes the view that this classification has made health and safety measures even more important.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

It is a privilege to lead today’s debate recognising firefighters memorial day 2023 as a day that is dedicated to the sacrifice of firefighters who have lost their lives in the line of duty, both here and internationally. The day is also known as international firefighters day, when the world community can recognise and honour the sacrifices that firefighters make to ensure that their communities and environment are as safe as possible.

International firefighters day began after a tragic incident in Linton in Australia on 2 December 1998. On that day, five volunteers, who were part of a strike team that was called in to assist in tackling wildfires, headed out from the fire that they were tackling to refill their tanker when a sudden violent wind change engulfed the truck in flames. Tragically, all five members of the strike team were killed.

In response, lieutenant firefighter and fellow volunteer J J Edmondson resolved to work with international colleagues to establish an internationally recognised symbol of support and respect for all firefighters. Internationally, 4 May was chosen to coincide with the day of St Florian, the patron saint of firefighters, who was the first known commander of a firefighting squad in the Roman empire. He lost his life, as did his colleagues, protecting the same humane ideals that firefighters around the world share today.

Since the inaugural firefighters memorial day, support for the initiative has grown until it has become truly global, with events and services being held around the world to mark the day. Here in the Scottish Parliament, the overwhelming support for the motion from members across the chamber has been remarkable. It sends out a clear message of the huge respect that we all share for those who risk their lives every day to protect our communities. I thank the members who supported the motion and all those who are here in the chamber to speak. I look forward to listening to their contributions.

We all know the risks that are involved for firefighters. We were recently given a tragic reminder of those risks when, sadly, firefighter Barry Martin was fatally injured when tackling the horrendous blaze at the Jenners building in Edinburgh. In addition, two of his colleagues were taken to hospital for smoke inhalation treatment.

We were all incredibly moved by the solidarity of and support from his colleagues when, to pay their respects, crews lined up across the country and thousands lined the Royal Mile, including outside the Scottish Parliament, as the procession passed by. It was a poignant reminder that, only 15 years earlier in Edinburgh, firefighters performed the same sad duty for their colleague Ewan Williamson, who tragically died while attending a fire at the Balmoral bar. Today, we pay our respects to all those who have lost their lives in the line of duty.

Although praise must be given for the steps that have been taken to improve safety, the banner that hangs in the head office in Scotland of the Fire Brigades Union, which lists the names of almost 2,500 firefighters who have lost their lives, is a testament to the facts that one life lost is one too many, that we cannot be complacent and that, as the work of firefighters evolves, safety measures must evolve, too. Indeed, the risks that have been created by changes to construction methods and materials such as composite cladding, and new risks that result from firefighters’ involvement in non-traditional work such as water and rope rescue, not to mention the effects of climate change, make that imperative. I support the calls from the FBU for politicians, chief fire officers and firefighters to work together to ensure that, as practices evolve, safety and legislation evolve to reflect the new reality.

The new reality includes hidden risks. As has recently been acknowledged by the World Health Organization, there is an increased number of instances of firefighters dying from cancers and other diseases that are attributed to firefighting as an occupation. That is why I also support and commend the FBU’s recent decon campaign to help firefighters to protect themselves and others from harmful contaminants. The campaign calls for annual monitoring to exposure; occupation to be recorded on health records, death certificates and other related records; decon training and policy to be introduced across the United Kingdom; facilities and contracts for personal protective equipment and workwear cleaning; and legislation to ensure proper compensation and protection for affected firefighters. I hope that campaigns such as that, and other measures, can form the basis for discussions on the future shape of our rescue services.

I commend the FBU for its red plaques project, which creates memorials for firefighters who have lost their life in the line of duty, with each red plaque commemorating a moment in local history and offering a place of reflection for the community. Each red plaque is funded by the hugely worthy Firefighters 100 Lottery. Since its commencement, that lottery has funded the establishment and presentation of red plaques to remember more than 50 firefighters across the UK. Unfortunately, some of those are in notable locations in my city of Glasgow.

The quote on the medal that is handed out by the FBU to long-standing activists states:

“Remember the dead, fight for the living”.

We all agree with that, I think. We were elected to do just that. Firefighters protect our lives, and we must do everything that we can to protect theirs.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

I thank Bill Kidd for bringing the debate to mark firefighters memorial day. As fellow citizens of Glasgow, he and I are familiar with its long and tragic history of high-profile and often deadly infernos, some of which have earned it the label of “tinderbox city”.

We do not have to look far to see the legacy of incidents in which gallant firefighters and others lost their lives. The firefighters heritage trail comprises 12 memorial plaques in places around the city where firefighters died on duty. One of those relates to the Cheapside Street fire disaster of 28 March 1960, when 14 firefighters and five salvage corps officers lost their lives following a massive explosion at a whisky bond. I used to live nearby, on James Watt Street, where 22 members of the public were killed in 1968. There are plans to extend the trail, and I hope that that tragedy will be among those that are included.

The ferocity and scale of such horrors seems unimaginable—almost a sepia-tinted history. Fire safety has become central to our lives, in our homes and workplaces, with decades of improvements making us safer than ever before. During a recent trip to Paisley fire station, I saw some of the incredible equipment that is now used. Today, I watched a video about new technologies, which promise so much. In the future, firefighters will almost certainly be supported by augmented reality. They will be able to see on their visors vital digital information, superimposed on the physical world in front of them, about distances and layouts in smoke-filled buildings, and about the location of exits and of their colleagues.

However, technology and human endeavour cannot fully end the risk that is posed by fire and smoke. Despite our many advances, tragedies still occur, as in January, when firefighters were called to the former Jenners department store here in Edinburgh. Five of those who entered the building required hospital treatment, including 38-year-old Barry Martin, who tragically succumbed to his injuries days later.

Such a painful loss serves to remind us why days like today are so important. We have a duty to pay tribute to those on the front line who risk their safety and their lives every day to keep us safe, and to remember those such as Barry, who have paid with their lives.

While firefighters merit our respect and remembrance, they want and deserve our support. New research that was commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union found that Scottish firefighters are significantly more likely to die from cancer, heart attack, stroke and some other diseases. The union’s decon campaign is working hard to minimise that risk. The Scottish Government must do more to ensure proper facilities for our firefighters. It is clear that more can be done—and can be done more quickly—to protect firefighters from exposure to toxic and cancer-causing substances.

According to the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, years of underfunding mean that around £0.5 billion is needed to bring its infrastructure up to scratch. Frankly, many fire stations are outdated and dilapidated, and lack adequate facilities. We would not be expected to work in such conditions, so why should firefighters be expected to do so? Today, while we remember the firefighters who have been lost and thank those who serve, let us also collectively vow to continue striving to improve the safety of all those on whom we rely.

Ruth Maguire (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

I thank Bill Kidd for bringing this important debate to the Scottish Parliament chamber, allowing each of us to recognise the selfless acts of firefighters across Scotland and the world and to give them our thanks and the recognition that they deserve.

Few jobs are more selfless than firefighting. Imagine what it takes for someone to throw on their protective equipment, override every human instinct and run towards danger, knowing that they might not survive, to tackle flames that never want to die and searing heat that no one should experience. We have seen it time and again at tragedies such as Grenfell tower in London and the twin towers in New York and, most recently, with the loss of Barry Martin while he was tackling a blaze at the Jenners store here in our capital. Those men and women whom we remember and those who continue to come to our aid and protect our communities would probably tell us that they were just doing their job.

I am talking about men such as Tom Brown. He was 53 when he lost his life having had 28 years of experience in the service. He joined Strathclyde Fire Brigade in February 1979 and served for 20 years at Johnstone in Renfrewshire before moving to Kilwinning fire station. On Tuesday, 1 May 2007, Tom attended a fire in an unoccupied property on Bank Street in Irvine. He was one of four firefighters who entered the house that morning. All were wearing breathing apparatus. Just seconds after getting the fire under control and leaving the house, Tom collapsed. Colleagues from his green watch division based at Kilwinning fire station did what they could to save him but, sadly, he had suffered a heart attack, and passed away at Crosshouse hospital the following afternoon, Wednesday, 2 May 2007. He left behind his partner, Natalie, and stepdaughters, Natasha and Jessica.

Tom was described as a popular member of staff and a very able firefighter. His final act was protecting our community by tackling one of the many house fires that he would have faced throughout his time in the service.

Today, while remembering those firefighters such as Tom who lost their lives, our thoughts should also be with the families of those who have died in service. I pay tribute to the parents, siblings, partners and children who are heroes themselves.

On the day that we gather to remember, we should also pledge to support firefighters in whatever meaningful way we can. Risk of death should not be the norm. The report from the University of Central Lancashire, which was commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union, found that there are serious health risks to UK firefighters following exposure to toxic fire effluents. It revealed that firefighters such as Tom Brown are dying from heart attacks at five times the rate of the general public, almost three times the rate are dying from stroke, and firefighters are significantly more likely to suffer from cancer.

Understanding the effects of those harmful contaminants is vital to creating a better working environment for our brave firefighters. I am pleased that the Fire Brigades Union continued its research with an extra 100 firefighters last month, and I welcome the additional £10 million funding uplift and the continued engagement between the Scottish Government and the fire service on providing better resources and to discuss current and future actions to protect firefighters.

Today we are honouring and remembering extraordinary public servants. I say to the families who have lost loved ones that we know that our words will never replace them but, today and every day, we offer them our eternal gratitude.

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

Deputy Presiding Officer, I thank Bill Kidd for initiating this debate and welcome the new minister to her post.

Last week, we marked international workers memorial day, where we pledged to remember the dead and to fight for the living. This week, we mark international firefighters memorial day, where we honour those working people who have paid the ultimate price, sacrificing their lives while saving the lives of others. It is worth reminding ourselves that both are international memorial days, because our horizons must never be narrowed by geography but must be widened by our common bonds and by those universal principles of solidarity, of equality and of justice.

That is the abiding belief of the FBU as well. The very opening lines of the union’s rule book spell it out. Listen to them:

“The Fire Brigades Union recognises that workers, however employed, can only improve their lot by their own endeavours and organisation. A richer and fuller life can be achieved only by similar means.

To this end the Fire Brigades Union is part of the working class movement and, linking itself with the international Trade Union and Labour movement, has as its ultimate aim the bringing about of the socialist system of society.”

Today we come together in Parliament to commemorate those firefighters who went out on a shift but who did not come home: workers like Barry Martin, who tragically died at the tender age of 38 while doing his job, in this city, just this year, whose grieving family we think of especially on this day but whose grieving family we know think of Barry every single day.

We also commemorate those firefighters who have been exposed to killer diseases at work. That is why we must all redouble our efforts to get behind the Fire Brigades Union’s vital decon campaign. The campaign is built on evidence gathered by Professor Anna Stec, whose findings are shocking.

Compared with the general population, firefighters in Scotland are almost twice as likely to die from urinary cancers; two and a half times more likely to die from cancer of the oesophagus; more than three and a half times more likely to die from acute myeloid leukaemia; and nearly four times more likely to die from prostate cancer.

The decon campaign is about saving the lives of those who have saved the lives of others. However, it is also a recognition of how the class system fuels gross inequalities in health, mortality rates and life expectancy. As the FBU says,

“We don’t just fight fire, we fight injustice too.”

Back on 19 January, when we debated Professor Stec’s groundbreaking report, the minister’s predecessor told Parliament that

“The safety, health and wellbeing of all SFRS staff ... are a key priority”.—[

Official Report

, 19 January 2023; c 48.]

More than once we were told that, in the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, decontamination was something to be pursued vigorously. I hope that, more than 100 days on, the new minister will update us on what progress she has made on the vigorous pursuit of tackling that injustice.

Finally, on a personal note, I want to recall the life of a very special firefighter: my late friend and comrade Enoch Humphries, a former national president of the Fire Brigades Union. He was a man of principle born of experience and forged in fire, and he taught me so much. However, he never got used to injustice and inequality, against which he battled all his life. Enoch Humphries never looked away and never forgot. It is the task of those who follow in his footsteps—those in the union, and those of us elected to the Scottish Parliament for which he campaigned so tirelessly—to keep the red flame of courage alive, to keep those socialist principles burning brightly and to rekindle our faith that we can build the better future that humanity richly deserves.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I very much welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I also congratulate my colleague Bill Kidd on securing a debate on such an important topic.

As we have heard, today is international firefighters day, or firefighters memorial day. It is an annual observance that allows us the opportunity to recognise the immensely important role that firefighters play in our society and to honour the memory of those who have lost their lives in the line of duty.

Scotland has an important place in the development of firefighting. The city of Edinburgh—our capital—is believed to have had the first municipal fire service, which was formed in 1824, and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is now the world’s fourth-largest fire and rescue service.

Just last week, like other members, I attended a wreath-laying ceremony in Alloa as part of international workers memorial day. The ceremony was, rightly so, in memory of all those who have been killed at work. However, it is also right that we should have a special day to mark the particular sacrifice of those men and women in our Fire and Rescue Service.

As we have heard, firefighters memorial day has a particular poignancy in Scotland so soon after the death of firefighter Barry Martin as a result of injuries sustained while tackling a blaze in the former Jenners department store here in Edinburgh. Firefighter deaths have, mercifully, become more infrequent in recent years. Barry Martin was the first firefighter to be killed in the line of duty since 2009. Indeed, he was the first since the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service was formed. I hope that it will be a very long time indeed before there is another, but of course the nature of the job is such that danger is ever present.

Bill Kidd’s motion understandably acknowledges the crew at his local fire station at Knightswood, and I take the opportunity to mention the firefighters, whole-time and retained, who protect the communities of my constituency from the fire stations in Alloa, Tillicoultry, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane.

Firefighters are a special breed. They willingly and deliberately put themselves into situations that are incredibly dangerous in order to protect us, the public. They are the ones who run towards danger when others are fleeing. At any time on their shift or when they are on call, the bell could ring, and off they go, ready to face whatever danger awaits.

I am also pleased that the motion highlights the red plaque project. As has been outlined, that important endeavour seeks to recognise and remember the contribution and sacrifice of those firefighters who have been killed in the line of duty through the placing of a distinctive plaque as near as possible to the location where they died, commemorating an important moment in a community’s history and offering a place for reflection for family, friends, colleagues and those from the wider community who have been affected by the events around the loss of the firefighter. The project, which has been creating memorials since 2017, is funded by the firefighters 100 lottery—a charitable initiative that is run by the Fire Brigades Union.

One such plaque in my constituency commemorates John Noble, who lost his life in the line of duty on 23 January 2008. I actually met John at an event about a week before his death. His red plaque was presented on the anniversary of his death on 23 January 2019. A watch manager at Alloa fire station, John was on his way to a call-out at Strathdevon primary school in Dollar—which all three of my children went to, and which one of them was at on the day in question—when the fire engine that he was in was involved in a fatal accident. With more than 20 years of experience in the fire service, the 46-year-old left behind his wife, Lorraine, and two children.

The fire engine had a crew of five and they were responding to a smoke alarm that had activated at the primary school when the driver attempted to turn into a bend between Tillicoultry and Dollar—the place is called the Dollar bends, and those who know it will know that it has a lot of sharp bends in it. The fire engine left the road near Tillicoultry and collided with a tree, killing John and injuring four of his colleagues, one seriously. The call was later found to be a false alarm.

That story underlines the random nature of the threat to life that firefighters face on a daily basis as they go about their work of protecting the public. It also highlights the sad fact that even a false alarm can result in the death of a firefighter. It is right that we take the time to remember and honour the memory of John Noble and all those firefighters who have been killed in the line of duty.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

I, too, congratulate Bill Kidd on bringing this debate to the chamber to allow us to mark firefighters memorial day 2023. I echo what I think all speakers have said: this debate is particularly poignant as we remember Barry Martin.

I want to thank, as the motion does, the firefighters who serve communities across Scotland, and to recognise their courage and dedication. I fully agree that, as the motion says,

“all fire stations should have safe work practices”.

Russell Findlay detailed some of the work that the FBU has done to look into the conditions in stations up and down the country, and it is incredibly alarming. As we look to recognise the bravery and sacrifice of firefighters, we must also look at the conditions that we are asking them to work in every single day.

In my region, 60 per cent of stations, including Bellshill, Motherwell, Kilsyth and Coatbridge, are considered to be in bad or poor condition. In Cumbernauld, the station requires remedial action, is considered in bad condition and has scaffolding supporting the structure. Crucially, however, it lacks the single occupancy showers that are absolutely vital to proper decontamination. The FBU has raised concerns that firefighters are being unnecessarily exposed to carcinogenic fire particles for long periods of time, which means that those decontamination facilities are absolutely crucial. Firefighters, who work hard to ensure the safety of people in our communities, need to be well equipped, well resourced, well protected and well paid. We owe that to them and their memory, but that includes giving them the facilities that they need to properly decontaminate.

On Friday, when we marked international workers memorial day—a day to remember the dead and fight for the living—the FBU, along with the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the wider labour movement—came out in support of my proposed Scottish employment injuries advisory council bill. I want to put on record how grateful I am for the support of the FBU, because it is its work that is making the case for a devolved employment injuries benefit that works for its members and can bring that system into the 21st century.

Thanks to Maggie Chapman and others who took part, we have previously debated the work that the FBU has done through its decon campaign, with the help of Professor Anna Stec from the University of Central Lancashire. That work has been absolutely groundbreaking. Not commissioned by any Government, it confirms the World Health Organization’s finding that firefighting is a cancer-causing occupation and it identifies an epidemiological case for including cancers in firefighters in Scotland in the new employment injuries assistance benefit. Those involved in the campaign have been using Scottish firefighters’ death certificates, and I think that it makes a case that the Government absolutely cannot ignore.

It is a principle of fair work that workers have an effective voice in Government. Having an advisory council where firefighters have a direct role advising Government on what the benefits to support them should look like is fundamental to that idea, and they can do that only through an independent statutory council that operates without fear or favour of Government, which is, ultimately, their boss.

Firefighters know their workplaces and they know how the lack of decontamination facilities is giving them cancer. We must give them a voice and enable them to get justice through the employment injuries benefits system and to take their place on a council advising Government.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

Like others, I thank Bill Kidd for bringing this debate on firefighters memorial day to the chamber.

It is always a tragedy when a professional loses their life in the line of duty, so I stand today in solidarity to remember those who have made the ultimate sacrifice and to recognise the dedication and courage of each of Scotland’s 3,531 whole-time operational firefighters. I also thank the FBU for sending us a briefing for today’s debate, and for its endless work in advocating for firefighters’ rights.

Firefighters are at the heart of our communities. During 2021-22, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service attended 95,709 incidents. Firefighters provide a lifeline to our communities when they face danger, and they dedicate time in our local communities to educate us and fit smoke alarms on behalf of those who cannot. If firefighters undertake a variety of roles, they share the same goal: all of them prioritise the safety of our communities.

This year marks the 60th anniversary of the deaths of local firefighters Stanley McIntosh MBE and Joseph Calderwood, who lost their lives in a tragic blaze in Holytown, in my constituency. Earlier this year, in honour of their sacrifice, a red plaque from the FBU was placed at Motherwell fire station to ensure that everyone in Lanarkshire remembers their names and to remind local people of their selfless dedication to protecting our community.

In response to firefighters memorial day, I want to raise awareness of all the other everyday sacrifices that firefighters make, because their sacrifice does not stop at the fire station.

As we have heard, the invaluable decon campaign is informed by ground-breaking research by the University of Central Lancashire. It plays a vital role in raising awareness, and it highlights the need for firefighters to protect themselves, their family and others from toxic contaminants.

No one should have their health worsen just from going to work. However, firefighters are routinely faced with traumatic and high-stress environments and exposed to toxic and carcinogenic contaminants. It is harrowing that firefighters are at increased risk of cancer, as we have heard, and that they are often diagnosed only once they have reached the terminal stage. They die up to 20 years earlier than the general public from rare cancers.

In addition, exposure to toxic contaminants is causing higher rates of mental health issues. Findings from the 2023 UK firefighter contamination survey revealed that those who remained in contaminated PPE for over four hours after incidents were twice as likely as their peers to report mental health disorders. Those findings are an evident call for further investigation of health monitoring and PPE management for firefighters, as reducing exposure to contaminants is pertinent to protecting the health and wellbeing of our firefighters and their families.

Sacrifices are made not only by the firefighter; they are made by every partner and family member who patiently waits for their loved one to return home. Being a firefighter means prioritising the safety of our communities, often at the expense of sacred family time—it means missing big occasions, such as birthdays and weddings, and other moments that the rest of us often take for granted. The experience of being married to a firefighter was generously shared by Amber, who wrote:

“The truth is, being a fire wife is rarely glamorous. It’s extremely lonely nights, followed by long days.”

However, Amber would not change that for the world, because she knows that being a firefighter is her husband’s calling, not just his job.

On firefighters memorial day, let us share our gratitude to the firefighters who are currently serving our communities, the families who support them and all those who have fallen. We are honouring extraordinary individuals today. They include the firefighters Stanley McIntosh and Joseph Calderwood and, more recently, Barry Martin and Ewan Williamson, as well as every other firefighter who nobly made the ultimate sacrifice—more than 2,500 in total. I say to all the firefighters out there: thank you for keeping us safe.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

A number of members still wish to participate in the debate. To allow all of them to do so, I am minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 of standing orders to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. I invite Bill Kidd to move such a motion.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[

Bill Kidd

]

Motion agreed to.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I thank Bill Kidd for lodging the motion so that we can—as we should—mark firefighters memorial day today. I welcome firefighters and FBU members to the gallery.

This year’s firefighters memorial day is perhaps especially poignant because of the tragic death of firefighter Barry Martin in Edinburgh in January. I give my sincere condolences to Barry’s family, friends and colleagues.

As the motion highlights, the Fire Brigades Union has created the red plaque scheme, which seeks to mark, with the placing of a red plaque, where or close to where firefighters have lost their lives in the course of their duties. A few weeks ago, I was privileged to attend the red plaque unveiling ceremony at Blackness Road fire station in Dundee. Two plaques were installed on the wall of the station—one to honour John Buist, who died after being trapped by burning jute bales in a warehouse in April 1962, and one to honour William Carnegie, who was killed in a fall while attending a fire on Mains Road, also in 1962. We remember them today, just as we remember Barry Martin and each of the firefighters who have lost their lives in Scotland, the rest of the UK and beyond.

I turn to the FBU’s decon campaign. Over the past couple of years, it has become increasingly plain that firefighters are exposed to toxins and other conditions that have negative impacts on their health. Professor Anna Stec’s excellent work on Scottish firefighters occupational cancer and disease mortality rates highlights the extent of the impact that the work of firefighting has on our firefighters.

The international agency for research on cancer, which is part of the World Health Organization, has assessed firefighting to be a carcinogenic occupation. That is why the FBU has developed its decon campaign. Bill Kidd highlighted the campaign’s key asks: regular health screening and monitoring; clear recording of occupational information, including on death certificates; legislation that enables compensation; and, of course, investment in personnel, in training and in the facilities and infrastructure that are needed in order to decontaminate effectively after incidents and to limit exposure in the first place.

Recently, I was pleased to visit a fire station with FBU colleagues to better understand how things work on the ground in relation to safety and decontamination. Improvements are clearly under way in several areas, and firefighters are supporting one another with the culture change that is required.

One of the FBU’s posters calls on firefighters to “shower within the hour”—to shower as soon as possible after an incident in order to remove as many contaminants as possible. We know that some stations do not have running water, so firefighters have to go home to shower, taking contaminants home to their families. We must address that.

Where showers are available, some do not have soap or other detergents. Sometimes, contaminated personnel need to walk past other colleagues through carpeted areas to get to shower facilities. We need to rethink the provision of soap and other basic things to ensure that they are as close as possible to arrival points in order to limit the spread of contaminants through stations. Clear policies and procedures for limiting exposure and prioritising decontamination must become ingrained in the culture and practices across the service.

The FBU’s decon campaign is a call for us all to act: for the Government to plan the investment and implement that investment appropriately; for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to ensure that policies and procedures are appropriate and adequate and that training meets the needs of the evolving service; and for firefighters to be aware of what they need to do to keep themselves, their colleagues and their families safe.

The campaign is vital for the long-term sustainability of the service. Firefighting must be a profession that people want to join, and stay in, without facing additional disproportionate risks of stroke, cancer, heart attack and early death.

We rely on firefighters at some of the worst moments of our lives. At those moments, we expect firefighters to be there, equipped as best they can be to save our lives, our families and our communities. It is only right that we recognise and respect that, in order for them to be there to do that, they need our support now.

Just a week on from international workers memorial day, we must remember the dead and fight for the living. I pledge to continue to work with the FBU to do just that.

Gordon MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Pentlands)

I, too, thank Bill Kidd for bringing this important debate to the chamber.

We observe the annual international firefighters day to honour and pay tribute to the firefighters past and present who put their lives at risk while working tirelessly to protect the life and property of people and to prevent the damage that is caused by fires. In the past 100 years, more than 40 firefighters have died while serving in Scotland. Today, we remember them and their comrades around the world who have given their lives in the service of their communities.

In recent times, tragically, two of that number were members of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service who served in Edinburgh. They paid the ultimate price, and lost their lives as a result of firefighting in this city. As Bill Kidd mentioned, in July 2009, firefighter Ewan Williamson died while fighting a blaze in the Balmoral bar in the city’s Dalry Road. Much more recently, we saw the tragic death of firefighter Barry Martin, who died as a result of injuries that he sustained while firefighting in the vacant Jenners store on Princes Street in January this year.

In recognising the ultimate tragedy of that loss of life, we should never forget that, across the country, firefighters can and do sustain injuries, which are sometimes life changing, while protecting the public from harm. In acknowledging the deaths of firefighters Williamson, Martin and others across the world, we should also remember those who sustain injuries. Four of firefighter Barry Martin’s colleagues were also hospitalised as a result of the Jenners incident, but thankfully their injuries were such that they were discharged from hospital relatively soon after.

It is important that we acknowledge the annual firefighters memorial day, but I would also like to recognise the work of the Fire Brigades Union in its support for the red plaque scheme, which recognises and honours as many fallen firefighters as possible for their selfless commitment to protecting others. The red plaque scheme is funded by the firefighters 100 lottery, which was born out of plans to mark the centenary of the Fire Brigades Union. It is run independently, and was set up to commemorate the bravery and sacrifice of firefighters killed and injured in the line of duty, and to establish a fund for the future benefit of firefighters, their bereaved families and the firefighting profession. So far, the scheme has seen a number of plaques installed in Scotland: in Aberdeen, Dundee, Inveraray, Dollar, Paisley, Motherwell, Glasgow and Edinburgh—on Dalry Road, to commemorate the death of firefighter Ewan Williamson; in time there will be at least one more to mark the death of Barry Martin.

The list of towns and cities that I have just shared shows that, right across Scotland, our firefighters put themselves in harm’s way—sometimes at the cost of their lives—while they protect the public. We know that other workers tragically lose their lives at work, and they are remembered on international workers memorial day, but it is right and proper that firefighters are acknowledged separately, because while others evacuate or flee from danger, firefighters head towards it to render their three main aims: to save lives, protect property and provide humanitarian services. For that, we are eternally grateful. On this day, especially, but also on every other day, we thank them and their families for the work that they do on our behalf and we remember those who gave their lives doing so.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I congratulate Bill Kidd on securing this debate and thank him for lodging the motion. As he pointed out, this is an international day, and the issues raised when firefighters put themselves in danger in the interest of others are also international. I associate myself with all of the tributes that have been made to firefighters who have lost their lives.

Firefighters memorial day is a day of solidarity and one on which to remember all firefighters and fire and rescue services workers who have lost their lives. As has been said, more than 2,500 have lost their lives serving their communities and many thousands more have been injured. The health risks to firefighters are now very clear, with higher death rates, higher rates of heart attacks, higher cancer and leukaemia rates and excess cancer mortality rates linked to different exposures and fire toxins.

My office recently submitted freedom of information requests to the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service about the conditions in our fire stations. In total, 75 per cent of Scotland’s fire stations are assessed as being of bad or poor suitability. Around 45 per cent of fire stations are assessed as being in either bad or poor condition. In total, around 30 per cent of Scotland’s fire stations do not have dedicated female toilets and about 33 per cent of Scotland’s fire stations do not have dedicated male toilets. Around 40 per cent of Scotland’s fire stations do not have dedicated female showers and around 26 per cent of Scotland’s fire stations do not have drying facilities.

At the Criminal Justice Committee, interim chief, Ross Haggart, estimated that £138 million is needed to address that issue, but he also cited a £630 million backlog in the fire service’s capital budget. Despite strong representations being made, the Scottish Government is cutting the budget in real terms over the next year. We also know that between 2012 and 2021 almost 1,100 firefighter jobs were lost across Scotland, which is around 15 per cent of the workforce.

Last Friday was workers memorial day. The message then and now must be that we must remember the dead and fight for the living. In reality, that means that we in the chamber must put our actions where our words are, and we must commit resources to ensure that firefighters in this country are provided with safe systems of work.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

I thank Bill Kidd for raising this important issue and bringing it to the wider attention of the Parliament. It is fitting that we gather to remember firefighters across the world who gave their lives to protect others and that we honour the memory of those exceptional and very brave people.

That has been brought into sharp focus for us all in Scotland this year with the very sad death of firefighter Barry Martin in January. Today, we have also heard about Tom Brown in Irvine, John Noble in Alloa and Stanley McIntosh and Joseph Calderwood, just to name a few; my deepest condolences go out to their families, friends, loved ones and colleagues at this time. The SFRS continues to mark the tragedies that took place at Cheapside Street and Kilbirnie Street in Glasgow in the 1960s and 1970s to ensure that the firefighters who lost their lives are never forgotten.

It is often said that firefighters are those who run towards danger while everyone else runs away. Of course, they train and prepare so that they can do that as safely and as effectively as possible, but whenever there is a loss it is a clear reminder of the courage that our firefighters demonstrate every day of their working lives.

Although firefighters face known risks when they attend an emergency, it is right that we also support and protect them from lesser known and more silent risks. In that respect, I thank and acknowledge the significant work of the Fire Brigades Union in commissioning its important research with the University of Central Lancashire and in the production of the report that was discussed at an earlier debate in January this year. I also welcome members of the FBU to the gallery.

The safety, health and wellbeing of our firefighting staff who work so hard to protect communities in some of the most challenging environments is of utmost importance to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. The FBU’s campaign, research and any subsequent conclusions are primarily a matter for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, as the employer of firefighters in Scotland. The SFRS has engaged with that work for a number of years, and has met with Professor Anna Stec of the University of Central Lancashire on several occasions to achieve a deeper understanding of the important research that she is doing, and to offer SFRS’s co-operation and support to identify the actions that are needed to minimise harm to firefighters.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I hear what the minister says, but I understand that 14 fire stations in Scotland do not have running water. Does she agree that that is unacceptable and needs to be addressed urgently?

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

I met with the SFRS earlier this week, and it raised that point with me. I totally agree with the member, and I know that there are plans in place to rectify the situation as a matter of urgency.

I am aware that as a result of the debate in January, the previous Minister for Community Safety swiftly engaged with the SFRS and the FBU. Meetings took place in February between the previous minister and the SFRS senior leadership team at SFRS headquarters at Cambuslang. The minister also met with the FBU and Professor Stec in February this year, and wider health monitoring for firefighters was among the issues that were discussed. I will meet the FBU next week.

I am pleased to say that since those discussions the SFRS has been working closely with Professor Stec and the FBU on developing further research and analysis on health monitoring, and will make progress on detailed proposals over the next 12 months. I understand that the FBU has welcomed that development.

The decon campaign also raises the need for recognition of the occupational risks of firefighting in relation to Department for Work and Pensions benefits and pensions and in terms of public record keeping. I am pleased to be able to say that officials have been progressing positive discussions with the other devolved nations and Westminster on issues such as the industrial injuries disablement benefit.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

The industrial injuries disablement benefit is now fully devolved, and it is entirely within the gift of the Scottish Government to set out the entitlement. Will the minister commit to looking at the particular cancers that are affecting firefighters and consider prescribing those for the purposes of employment injuries assistance, as it is called now that it is fully devolved to the Scottish Government?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I can give you the time back for the intervention.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

Thank you. Yes, I will be happy to look into that on the member’s behalf.

I fully recognise the risk that contaminants can pose to firefighters, and I want Scotland to be at the forefront of moves to tackle that threat. SFRS has a long-established management of contaminants working group that looks at technical, procedural and cultural solutions to mitigate the risk of SFRS personnel—and any others who may be affected by the actions of SFRS personnel—being exposed to contaminants. The group includes representation from the Fire Brigades Union, has links to external specialists and is supported by the highest levels of SFRS staff.

Richard Leonard asked for progress in his speech. However, SFRS has already made significant practical changes in procedures, equipment and facilities to reduce firefighter contact with equipment that could contain contaminants that are harmful to health, and that important work will continue.

Practical examples of such changes include ensuring that firefighting equipment is properly cleaned and stored and encouraging crews to shower as quickly as possible upon their return to the station grounds. All SFRS buildings have been audited and reviewed to minimise the risk of contamination, and procedures have been developed to ensure that firefighters in some rural fire stations that lack showering facilities have appropriate decontamination solutions in place. A number of steps have also been taken to mitigate risks, including supplying specialist decontamination wipes and the trial of station zoning systems to limit any potential spread.

The Scottish Government has continued the commitment to support SFRS service delivery and reform with a further uplift of £14.4 million budget cover for 2023-24. However, I must reiterate that decisions on how to spend its budget, including its capital allocation of £32.5 million is a matter for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service board.

Difficult decisions have to be taken on budgets, particularly for capital investment, but we have maintained the £32.5 million capital budget for SFRS in 2023-24 to invest in buildings, fleet and equipment.

I will touch on a few speeches made by members, but I thank all members for their very moving and passionate contributions to today’s debate.

Keith Brown’s speech highlighted the threat to life that firefighters face every day and the fact that that risk is not always from fire—John Noble died in a road accident in the line of duty. I also take the time to thank Keith Brown for all his work as cabinet secretary—[

Inaudible

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, please turn to the microphone.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

In closing, I again thank Bill Kidd for the opportunity to mark firefighters memorial day and to discuss the wider issues around the FBU decon campaign. I will continue to discuss the issues of decontamination and the wider health of firefighters with the FBU and the SFRS through my regular meetings with them to ensure that progress continues to be made on this important issue.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, minister. That concludes the debate.

13:44 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—

Net Zero and Just Transition

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio questions on net zero and just transition. If a member wishes to ask a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question, or enter the letters RTS in the chat function.

Net Zero Projects (Engagement with United Kingdom Government)

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what recent engagement it has had with the United Kingdom Government regarding projects in Scotland that will contribute to meeting net zero targets. (S6O-02180)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

Ministers and officials regularly meet UK Government counterparts to press for the action that is needed to meet net zero. For instance, I attend the monthly interministerial group for net zero, energy and climate change, alongside representatives of the Governments of the four nations.

The most recent meeting, which took place last week and which I chaired, was on the urgent need for grid infrastructure upgrades. That

is one key area in which we are pushing for action, alongside transmission charging and progress on the Scottish Cluster. Those areas are critical to net zero. If the UK Government does not want to act on them, then it must devolve responsibility for those matters to the Scottish Parliament, so that we can.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

Given that Andrew Bowie, Parliamentary Under-secretary of State for the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, told the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee last week that he

“would be overwhelmingly delighted should Acorn be successful through the track 2 process”

and that it was

“vital to Scotland’s 2045 net zero ambition ... that we get more carbon capture and storage on stream across the whole of the United Kingdom”,—[

Official Report

,

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

, 27 April 2023; c 10.]

does the cabinet secretary agree that it is vital that the UK Government finally delivers long overdue carbon capture funding for the Scottish Acorn project?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I agree with Jackie Dunbar that it is absolutely vital that the UK Government provides clarity on funding for Acorn and that the Scottish Cluster is part of track 2. It is inexplicable to all observers that Acorn was excluded from track 1. We urgently need a concrete timeline for track 2, instead of the vague commitments that have been given to provide further updates in the summer.

The fact of the matter is that we are in a climate emergency. Scotland is very fortunate to have natural resources to help us tackle it, but, while the UK Government has powers over our natural resources, we are at its will, and I am afraid that we are at risk of being left behind.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

We all support the Scottish cluster, particularly the UK Government, which has provided more than £41 million in carbon capture funding. Given the sentiments that the cabinet secretary has expressed, can she tell the chamber how much of the £80 million that the Scottish Government promised to the Scottish Cluster in February last year, rounded to the nearest £1, has been paid over?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

As ever, there is a large dose of irony and, I would have to say, hypocrisy in the questions that are coming from members on the Tory benches.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

How much?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members. Let us hear the answer.

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

The Government is investing heavily in supporting Scotland’s transition to net zero, not least with £500 million over 10 years through our just transition fund and £75 million through our energy transition fund. However, the member is challenging me to put a figure on investment in carbon capture, use and storage, when it is his party in Government down south that has failed to do what only it could do and prioritise Acorn for track 1 status. I will wait with bated breath for a date on the closure of track 2.

Low-carbon Heating in Homes (Installation Incentives)

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

2. To ask the Scottish Government whether it plans to introduce financial incentives to encourage households to install low-carbon heating in their homes, to help reach net zero by 2045. (S6O-02181)

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

We have allocated £1.8 billion for heat and energy efficiency improvements, including an existing package of grants and interest-free loans, which has recently been made more generous and flexible. The green heat finance task force’s forthcoming interim report, exploring options for scaling up existing financial products, will help to shape our policy for encouraging low-carbon heating investment from the second half of the decade. Decarbonising Scotland’s buildings will require a mix of public and private finance. It will sit within a wider package of measures, including regulation to provide market certainty, develop supplier and skills capacity and enhance information provision.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

As the minister will be aware, the Scottish Government’s consultation on its draft energy strategy and just transition plan closes a week today. A response this week from the Just Transition Partnership sets out just how inadequate the plans are in their current form, in that they barely exist at all. The Just Transition Partnership has stated that

“Home Energy Efficiency appears peripheral rather than central to this strategy.”

and that

“Engagement with drafting the strategy has been poor.”

I note the minister’s answer. Given that the average cost for the installation of an air source heat pump is between £7,000 and £14,000 and that ground source pumps are far more expensive, will the minister give some detail about where grants are going and who is benefiting from them? Are there targets for the number of installations the Government hopes to reach each year?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

There may be some differences in expectation here. We have always been clear that the detail of our heat in buildings programme, which has already been consulted on at a high level, will be subject to a detailed consultation that we will publish this spring. The detail

of our heat in buildings regulations, and of the large amount of support that we are providing to households and organisations to help them decarbonise their buildings, will be included there.

I hope that Labour colleagues, and others who are urging us to go further, will welcome the ambitious programme that we are setting out. For example, £7,500 per household for heat pump installation, with an additional uplift for those living in rural areas, is a substantially higher level of support than any that exists elsewhere in the United Kingdom. In addition to that, there are grant and loan schemes for energy efficiency.

That package, taken along with our investment in supply chains to ensure that the cost of insulation will reduce over time, means that we are balancing an ambitious package of regulations with a generous package of support to ensure that the heat transition works for everyone.

Sustainable Aviation Fuel (Development)

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to support the development of sustainable aviation fuel in Scotland. (S6O-02182)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Transitioning to sustainable aviation fuel is an essential part of the global endeavour to decarbonise aviation.

In developing our aviation strategy, the Scottish Government will consider all responses to our public consultation, including those supporting investment in SAF. In addition, Transport Scotland is working with Scottish Enterprise, which has commissioned an SAF supply chain study, to review the economic opportunity for Scotland. That review takes into account a new report by Sustainable Aviation that suggests that SAF production in the United Kingdom could create 10,000 jobs initially. We will consider all such material as we determine our potential actions on SAF.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

Aviation is a critical part of Scotland’s transport infrastructure, bringing 2 million visitors to Scotland each year, who in turn spent £2.5 billion here. The industry is also worth £2.5 billion in its own right.

Net zero poses a real challenge. Electric aviation will be suitable only for short hops and hydrogen aviation fuel is some way off. Sustainable air fuel is therefore important, but we must make decisions about how we revitalise our petrochemical infrastructure. We also know that biomass comes with substantial opportunity costs.

What detailed steps have been taken to evaluate the opportunity costs of biomass? What planning framework will be in place so that any projects will be genuinely co-led by Government and industry?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

In my initial answer, I set out the work being undertaken by Government, Transport Scotland and Scottish Enterprise. The SAF mapping exercise commissioned by Scottish Enterprise will provide a far more robust evidence base to allow us to consider whether and how the Scottish Government can support SAF production in Scotland.

Some measures in that regard are already being undertaken in Scotland. For example, Highland and Islands Airports Limited recently made SAF available at Inverness airport, and many other schemes are under way. We will continue moving forward on that front to ensure that aviation becomes sustainable and we will keep Parliament informed.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

In March, the cross-party group on aviation published a report that called for the creation of an SAF industry in Scotland and for it to be supported by the Scottish Government and the Scottish National Investment Bank. The minister seems to accept the potential for SAF, and he said that its production could create up to 10,000 jobs. What is he doing to unlock that potential? Is he in talks with the United Kingdom Government about doing so?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Of course, the Scottish Government talks to the UK Government on a number of issues. I point out to Mr Simpson and the rest of the Parliament that regulation of aviation remains reserved, and the UK Government’s jet zero strategy will apply throughout the UK. The sector has repeatedly called on the UK Government to introduce a price support mechanism for SAF, given its high cost, and I agree with the sector that the UK Government should do that. Sustainable Aviation’s new report reiterates that request and notes:

“If UK SAF support schemes are not established soon, there is a risk of missing out on creating a UK SAF industry.”

Of course, the Scottish Government and I will do all that we can to prod and cajole the UK Government into putting that mechanism in place, and I hope that Mr Simpson will support us on that.

Transport Links (Highlands and Islands)

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what analysis it has undertaken of any potential impact on local communities of the reported deterioration of vital transport links in the Highlands and Islands region. (S6O-02183)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

An assessment of Scotland’s strategic transport network was undertaken as part of the second strategic transport projects review. The final recommendations of STPR2 were published on 8 December 2022. The reports include final appraisal and outcomes for the Highlands and Islands region.

My officials at Transport Scotland continue to engage with partners across the Highlands and Islands to monitor strategic transport links, such as trunk roads, ferries and air routes. Where routes are affected by weather or technical incidents, Transport Scotland works with operators, emergency services and local resilience partnerships to resolve issues as efficiently as possible.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

There are simply too many areas of concern to ask about in just one question. I could ask about the appalling state of roads across my Highlands and Islands region, the increasing number of CalMac Ferries services that are failing to deliver for the communities that they are meant to serve, or the on-going issues at the Corran Narrows crossing, where residents are still without a vital ferry link and are forced to detour on a much longer road route.

However, I would like to get some clarity from the minister about the disruption to Orkney following the incident involving the MV Pentalina. Although there appears to be no recall option as part of the agreement between CalMac and Pentland Ferries, could CalMac still agree for the MV Alfred to return to its normal Pentland Firth route, if there was a prolonged absence of the MV Pentalina? If yes, what discussions has the minister had with CalMac and Pentland Ferries about that option and any further disruption to west coast routes that it might cause?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

As I explained to the chamber on Tuesday, there is no recall element to the contract between CalMac and Pentland Ferries; it is a commercial contract. However, we will continue to monitor the situation with regard to the transportation of goods and people to Orkney. As I explained on Tuesday, we have moved to the summer timetable, so there are three return services a day between Scrabster and Stromness. I explained to the chamber that I will continue to keep a close eye on all of that to see whether further service provision is required. Beyond that, I reiterate the point that it is a commercial contract between CalMac and Pentland Ferries. In the discussions that we have had, neither Pentland nor Orkney Islands Council have called for the recall of MV Alfred.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Does the minister consider that the northern isles lifeline ferry services are operating as best they can on overnight crossings? Booking a cabin is a struggle, booking a cabin with a vehicle is a struggle and booking dates beyond 30 September is not only a struggle but impossible, because the booking system is not open beyond that date.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We will move to open bookings as soon as that is possible. I want to ensure the best possible services for the residents of Orkney and Shetland, and I think that NorthLink Ferries serves them very well indeed. I visited NorthLink in Aberdeen recently, and I was impressed by the changes that it has made to the service to suit the needs of islanders.

I will write to Ms Wishart to give her an indication of when we will move to open that booking system.

Active Travel Projects (Funding Criteria)

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what criteria are used to determine how much funding should be spent on active travel projects. (S6O-02184)

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

The Scottish Government undertakes annual budget setting in line with the processes set out in the Scottish public finance manual, as well as the commitments made in the programme for government and the Bute house agreement.

The active travel budget forms part of the overall budget for the transport portfolio, taking into account legal or contractual commitments along with other policy commitments. Investment priorities in transport are also set out in the second strategic transport projects review, which was published late last year following extensive public and stakeholder feedback.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

Last week, the City of Edinburgh Council confirmed that it must restart a public consultation on making active travel schemes permanent due to errors with bus lanes and yellow lanes, which will cost the taxpayer thousands of pounds.

That is not the first wasteful project led by Sustrans. Given the scale of funding that it receives—in the order of £234 million over five years—will the minister commit to reviewing whether Sustrans is providing value for money and listening to the genuine concerns of local residents?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

I am happy to explore with the City of Edinburgh Council

any issues or concerns that it has about that situation. Very clearly, if we are remotely serious about our climate ambitions in relation to transport, as well as the wider economic, social and health benefits from active travel, and if we are serious about the 20 per cent car kilometres reduction target and the role that active travel can play in that regard, investment in that is not only value for money but a long-term priority. The countries that have seen a transformation in active travel have achieved it with strong local leadership and long-term investment. That is the opportunity that Scotland has to make that change.

We are also undertaking a transformation project on active travel because we know that delivery models will need to change to match the scale of ambition and the scale of budgets that we have now and that are coming next year. There will be more to say on the results of that transformation project later in the year.

James Dornan (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Cathcart)

I listened to the minister’s answers with some interest. Will he give us an indication of how much the Scottish Government spends on active travel compared with the rest of the United Kingdom?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

Not only has the overall budget for active travel risen to a record £189 million this year as part of our commitment of £320 million—10 per cent of the transport budget—by 2024-25, at the same time, we have seen a sad lack of similar commitment in many parts of the United Kingdom outside of Scotland. Outside of London, the spending per head is just £1.

James Dornan and I both represent Glasgow. Glasgow now has an ambitious long-term plan for a network development of active travel routes. If we want to see that opportunity turn into a reality, it requires a long-term commitment to funding from the Scottish Government, and that is what we are determined to deliver.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

The Government’s new “Cycling Framework for Active Travel—A Plan for Everyday Cycling” includes welcome commitments for infrastructure developments. That is an exciting opportunity for new unionised and green public sector job creation. Will the minister confirm how many such jobs the Scottish Government expects the framework to create, and what discussions it has had with trade unions about developing those jobs?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

I do not have a figure for job projections with me at the moment, but I would be happy to write to the member about that. I am pleased that she shares the enthusiasm for the opportunity to transform Scotland’s towns, villages, cities and communities and to make active travel not only the natural choice but the safe and attractive choice for a far greater proportion of the journeys that we make.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I welcome the record level of investment that we are seeing from the Scottish Government. It is partly a result of the Bute house agreement and Greens being in government and of successive budget deals in Parliament.

Does the minister agree that delivering the capital infrastructure that keeps the cyclists, the wheelers and the walkers separate from motor vehicles is the right priority for the Government, and that to drive up rates of active travel, it is a case of build it and they will come?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

Absolutely. That capital investment is a record already, and it is set to rise next year. We are keen to work not only with local authorities but with the third sector to ensure that the local leadership matches the scale of investment.

I mentioned that, outside of London, just £1 a head is being spent on active travel in other parts of England. In comparison, the Scottish Government’s spending sits at £34 a head and will rise next year to £58 a head. That is the kind of commitment that is required if we are going to make the transformational change that this Government is determined to see happen.

Deposit Return Scheme (Launch Date)

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what process informed its previous decision to launch the deposit return scheme on 16 August 2023, including any input that it sought from industry regarding its readiness for that date. (S6O-02185)

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

The launch date of 16 August 2023 for Scotland’s deposit return scheme was informed by a five-month assessment process. It accounted for the findings of the gateway review that was conducted in June 2021, independent advice, review of Circularity Scotland’s implementation plan and feedback from a wide range of stakeholders. That launch date was announced in Parliament on 14 December 2021.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

The minister has been at pains to assure us that the scheme is industry led. However, in a written submission, Circularity Scotland said:

“Circularity Scotland’s advice to Ministers had been that the most appropriate time to ‘go live’ would be in Spring 2024. However ... the government’s preferred implementation date”

was 16 August. Will the minister explain to the chamber, and to the thousands of businesses that are struggling to get to grips with this shambles of a DRS, why she knew better than the industry?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Circularity Scotland was one of many stakeholders that were included in the five-month assessment process that I outlined. Those stakeholders included those who were vociferous in wanting us to launch in 2022, those who wanted a short delay and those who wanted a longer delay. I chose 16 August as a challenging but deliverable date for the industry, and, as we have seen, many businesses were ready to go for launch on 16 August. That is why there have been letters from businesses, which are publicly available, to me and to the United Kingdom Government asking us not to delay past 16 August.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

Yesterday,

Circularity Scotland told me that the DRS launch date of 16 August 2023 would have allowed only a few weeks for all stakeholders to test implementation. What consideration has the minister given to the period of time that is available to test the new DRS arrangements, given the new launch date? How long will that information be available to the industry, so that businesses can test implementation of the scheme in advance?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I thank the member for that really good question. In lots of ways, the industry is still working towards the 16 August date, in that the speed of implementation has not slowed down. As I said in my earlier answer, the launch date of 16 August was always a challenging one for the industry. It was absolutely deliverable, but it was a challenge. It meant that there was limited space for testing and, as we know, very little space for contingencies.

We now have 10 months until the new launch date. That gives businesses not only more time to get ready, which has been welcomed by some businesses, but a very extensive window for thorough end-to-end testing of the system. I know that that will ensure that customers have the best possible experience on the launch date.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Was the minister working on a proposal to delay the launch date beyond August while also assuring businesses that their investment was going towards an August launch? Yes or no.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I am a little confused by the member’s question. Given the delay to the UK Government issuing an exclusion to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act

2020, I was, of course, working with my officials on options for how to deal with that uncertainty, so that we could make sure that we would have a successful launch of our deposit return scheme. I worked with officials to come up with different options. I recommended to the First Minister that we should launch on 1 March next year, and he accepted that. However, that uncertainty remains. Until the UK Government issues us with that exclusion, businesses in Scotland will face uncertainty, which is the last thing that they need.

Green Skills Training (Discussions)

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with industry bodies and colleges regarding the provision of green skills training for green jobs of the future. (S6O-02186)

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Skills are a critical component of the transition to a net zero wellbeing economy. Ministers and officials regularly engage with a range of stakeholders on the demand for and provision of skills for a green economy. That includes senior representatives from industry and colleges, who are represented on the implementation steering group for our “Climate Emergency Skills Action Plan 2020-2025”.

Last November, I hosted a round-table session with college and university representatives to discuss green skills training and provision, and I look forward to further engagement with them on our mutual goal of an education and skills system that is agile and responsive to the opportunities and changing demands that arise as a result of the transition to net zero.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

Given the announcement this week on college funding, there is great unease in the energy sector that the transition to net zero energy jobs will be hampered. What assurances can the minister give that adequate resources will be in place for our colleges and for training places so that we can meet our goals and boost the number of green jobs by using the transferable skills from the oil and gas sector? The energy sector needs clarity from the Green-Scottish National Party Government.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Our college sector is very important to us in delivering green skills. I most recently met Scottish colleges in February to discuss green skills, so I am absolutely aware of the key role that they play in delivering those skills. We are facing the most challenging financial environment since devolution, and very difficult decisions have had to be made across portfolios. The Scottish Government continues to spend nearly £2 billion a year on Scotland’s universities and colleges through the Scottish Funding Council alone, research and innovation funding for universities has increased and additional funding has been allocated for high-priority maintenance across college estates.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can squeeze in question 8 if I can have brief questions, please, and answers to match.

Public Transport (Antisocial Behaviour)

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to address antisocial behaviour on public transport. (S6O-02187)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

The Scottish Government is committed to tackling antisocial behaviour and promoting safer, stronger communities where people take responsibility for their actions and how they affect others. The police, local authorities and other local agencies are responsible for tackling antisocial behaviour at the local level. Those agencies, empowered by the Scottish Government, work in a concerted and co-ordinated way to effectively tackle the problem.

I encourage anyone who witnesses such incidents to report the behaviour to their local authority’s antisocial behaviour team and to report all criminal behaviour to Police Scotland or the British Transport Police.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

The minister will be aware that there has been an increase in antisocial behaviour on Lothian Buses. Such activity, which includes vandalism, can relate to cancelled or diverted buses, and it can result in police officers being called to disturbances on board buses. Such behaviour will deter people from using public transport, and they will instead turn to private vehicles, which will increase carbon emissions on our roads. Will the minister instruct Transport Scotland to run a national campaign to change behaviour and make local buses safer for all passengers?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

It has been suggested by some people that some of the antisocial behaviour is linked to the launch of free bus travel for young people. I am not convinced that that is the case, because I think that most of our young people behave in a good manner. However, we will evaluate that scheme one year after its launch and look at all aspects of it.

I will certainly consider Mr Balfour’s suggestion for a campaign. I will write to him in due course on that issue.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio question time. Before we move on to the next item of business, there will be a short pause to allow front-bench teams to change position, should they so wish.

Moveable Transactions (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Moveable Transactions (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the bill as amended at stage 2—that is, SP Bill 15A—the marshalled list and the groupings of amendments.

The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for around five minutes for the first division of stage 3. The period of voting for the first division will be 45 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate. Members who wish to speak in the debate on any group of amendments should press their request-to-speak button or enter RTS in the chat function as soon as possible after I call the group.

Members should now refer to the marshalled list of amendments. Group 1 is on content of documents. Amendment 1, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 2, 16, 17, 25 and 26.

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

At stage 2, the committee agreed to a number of amendments that were lodged by Jeremy Balfour that were intended to replicate a provision that was made in section 2(4) of the bill. That provision enables a condition that has to be specified to be specified by “reference ... to another document”. The amendments that were made at stage 2 were designed to add comparable provision in respect of requirements to identify a claim, encumbered property and a secured obligation in certain documents.

I said at stage 2 that, although I did not think that those amendments were strictly necessary because the context was different, we had no objection to making the changes if stakeholders considered that such clarification would be helpful. There were, however, some technical deficiencies with the amendments, and I indicated that they would need to be adjusted at stage 3. Amendments 1, 2, 16, 17, 25 and 26 correct the technical deficiencies that we identified.

Amendments 1 and 2 address the unintended consequence that was created at stage 2 that meant that section 1(2) of the bill suggested that an assignation document “must” include “reference ... to another document.” That was never the intention, and amendments 1 and 2 will ensure that it is not compulsory to refer to another document. Instead, the provision will simply permit reference to be made to another document.

Amendments 17 and 26 seek to remove the references to data that were inserted at stage 2. Such references are unnecessary, due to the default definition of a document that is contained in the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010. Under that act,

“‘document’ means anything in which information is recorded in any form”.

Therefore, the reference to data is redundant. It is also confusing to mention it in some places and not in others, and it could lead to other references to “document” in the bill being construed more narrowly.

Amendments 16 and 25 simply update some cross-references in the relevant sections, which, as a result of another amendment that was made at stage 2, are no longer correct.

I move amendment 1.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

We will support all the amendments in this group. I put on record my thanks to the minister for taking what I was looking to do at stage 2 and ensuring that it will work in practice. I am grateful for his and his officials’ work around those points and look forward to supporting the amendments in due course.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call the minister to wind up.

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

I thank Mr Balfour for his constructive engagement throughout the process.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Amendment 2 moved—[Tom Arthur]—and agreed to.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We move to group 2, which is on insolvency. Amendment 3, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 4 to 7 and 19 to 23.

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

At stage 2, Jeremy Balfour also lodged a number of amendments that changed the definition of insolvency for the purpose of the bill. Those amendments were agreed to. At the time, I set out my concerns about them.

In short, I was concerned that some were unnecessary and that they did not appear to take a cohesive approach. Given the complexities in this area of law, I was therefore keen not to rush into any changes but to instead take the time that was needed and available to consult with relevant academics and the Accountant in Bankruptcy, safe in the knowledge that we would be able to adjust the definition at a later stage, if it was agreed that any changes were appropriate. Having taken the opportunity to consult further following stage 2, that view has only been reinforced.

I can give members a flavour of the views that were expressed about the amended definition of insolvency. The Accountant in Bankruptcy’s office advised that, although the Bankruptcy and Debt Advice (Scotland) Act 2014 repealed discharge on composition in bankruptcy, it did not abolish composition more generally. One of the academics who were consulted noted that composition at common law is still possible.

Concerns were expressed that the amendments that were made at stage 2 did not take account of international private law. A contract can provide that Scots law is to apply, even where a party is not Scottish. The provisions as originally drafted cover situations that take account of cross-border issues by using non-technical language with ordinary meaning. Removing the terminology of composition was therefore considered to leave an undesirable gap.

In relation to the stage 2 amendments that limited company voluntary arrangements to those that included the claim or property, we received advice from other insolvency academics that CVAs do not necessarily operate in that way. They are principally focused on debt and do not have to specifically involve the debtor’s property. However, it was also clear from our initial consultation, in the limited time that was available, that the issues, especially in respect of protected trust deeds, are not simply issues of technicalities or semantics. They raise substantive policy issues, too. That is why we intend, using the time that is available to us over the course of the next year and the powers in the bill, which are there for this very reason, to consult properly on the issues and lodge informed amendments, where necessary.

Amendments 3 and 19 reverse the amendments that were made at stage 2 in relation to the definition of insolvency for individuals. Amendments 4 and 21 remove the provision that a company voluntary arrangement constitutes the insolvency of an assignor or provider for the purposes of those provisions in the bill only if it includes the claim or the encumbered property in question.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

Will Tom Arthur take an intervention?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

One moment, please.

If further consultation suggests that any further finessing of the provisions is required, we will of course be open to that, but these amendments respond now to the advice that we received from the Accountant in Bankruptcy and a number of specialist insolvency academics.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

Does the minister agree that concerns about that have been raised, both by the Law Society of Scotland and practitioners? I welcome the further review, but will the Scottish Government commit to consulting not only academics but those who are practicing in this area of law day in, day out?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Yes, I am happy to give that undertaking. I will touch on some of that further on in my remarks. I recognise that there is a complexity to this and a range of views, which is why it is important that we take the opportunity over the next year to consult further. With the regulation-making provisions in the bill, we can act on the outcome of that consultation and engagement, if necessary.

In relation to the stage 2 amendments that added to the definition of insolvency the making of an order sanctioning a restructuring plan under part 26A of the Companies Act 2006, the consensus is that they might be worth retaining, at least in the meantime and possibly permanently.

Part 26A of the Companies Act 2006 enables companies to apply to the court for an order sanctioning an arrangement or reconstruction that is agreed with the majority of members or creditors, should they find themselves in financial difficulty. That issue has been discussed previously, and the view that was taken was that the provisions under part 26A mainly refer to companies in difficulty, as opposed to those that are actually insolvent. We were minded towards the view that the amendment in question could therefore be too broad. Having consulted further, we agree that relevant financial difficulties might, in practice, mean that the company is technically insolvent, in that the position is comparable to certain arrangements that are already listed in sections 4 and 47, which also do not require actual insolvency.

Although we are therefore content to retain the amendment, it was erroneously inserted into the definition of when an individual is insolvent, when it is actually about a company restructuring plan. Amendments 20 and 23 therefore correct the stage 2 amendment so that it applies to company insolvency provisions.

In the course of consultation with the academic experts, a couple of other issues were identified. First, the matter that is dealt with by amendments 4 and 21 in relation to company voluntary arrangements also applies to arrangements under part 26A of the 2006 act. Amendments 6 and 23 address that.

Secondly, from the perspective of private international law, it made sense to replicate the provisions in sections 4(6)(a)(vi) and 47(3)(a)(vi). Those sections include analogous arrangements worldwide in the list of circumstances for which an individual is deemed insolvent. Amendments 7 and 23 therefore make comparable provision for corporate persons.

Amendments 5 and 22 simply fix the places in which conjunctions appear as a result of the stage 2 changes.

I hope that members will appreciate that the amendments in this group have been based on consultation with experts in the time available. However, that is not the end of the story, and I reiterate my remarks to Jeremy Balfour: we intend to explore the matter further to ensure that the right result is reached. I ask members to support these amendments.

I move amendment 3.

Amendment 3 agreed to.

Amendments 4 to 7 moved—[Tom Arthur]—and agreed to.