Scottish Parliament, 27 April 2023

229 contributions from 65 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Good morning.

The first item of business is general question time. In order to get in as many questions as possible, we must have short and succinct questions and answers to match.

Unpaid Trial Shifts

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether businesses that make use of unpaid trial shifts should be disqualified from receiving public sector grants and procurement contracts. (S6O-02156)

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

The Scottish Government opposes the use of unpaid work trials. If a trial period is offered, it should be paid, whether it leads to permanent employment or not.

Although employment law powers are reserved to Westminster, we are using all levers at our disposal to promote fair work and to tackle worker exploitation, including measures adopted through our public spend. Our fair work first approach asks employers who are in receipt of public sector grants, contracts or other funding to commit to adopting fair work criteria, including no inappropriate use of zero-hours contracts, and payment of the real living wage.

We are now strengthening our conditionality approach by requiring recipients of public sector grants awarded on or after 1 July 2023 to pay all employees at least the real living wage and to provide appropriate channels for hearing effective workers’ voices.

Ross Greer (Green, West Scotland)

I welcome the minister’s opposition to unpaid trial shifts

. I am proud to have worked with the Scottish Government on the fair work section of the Bute house agreement, which delivered the real living wage conditionality.

Employment law powers might be reserved to Westminster for now, and our options here are limited, but the living wage conditionality for grants and contracts demonstrates that we can go a bit further. Given the Scottish Government’s robust opposition to the injustice of unpaid trial shifts, will it consider adding a new fair work condition that would ban companies that engage in such exploitation from accessing public sector grants and contracts in Scotland?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Ross Greer highlights an important issue. We were very disappointed when the Conservatives in the House of Commons talked out attempts by Stuart McDonald MP to introduce a private member’s bill to ban such practices.

In Scotland, we are determined to go as far as we can within our current powers to tackle the most significant issues in the labour market and to drive fair work practices by using the powers that we have, as set out in the Bute house agreement, which Ross Greer referred to. I say to him that we will continue to examine how we can strengthen our approach to conditionality. I will certainly ask my officials to consider the issues that he has raised today, including by highlighting our opposition to unpaid trial shifts as an example of good practice, in any future update of our fair work first guidance.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Payment of the real living wage is a key tool in tackling poverty. I am glad to recognise Highlands and Islands Enterprise as the first of our agencies to make all grant awards contingent on payment of the real living wage. That is also now a requirement for all businesses located in Scotland’s green ports. When will the requirement be rolled out to other agencies, as is called for in our national strategy for economic transformation?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I thank Ivan McKee for raising the importance of the real living wage in tackling poverty and low pay in Scotland. Some 91 per cent of Scots are now paid the real living wage, which is the highest rate across the United Kingdom. We are working alongside our enterprise and skills agencies to develop our stronger approach to conditionality. From 1 July this year, as will be the case with grants provided by the Scottish Government, public sector grants issued by such agencies will require payment of at least the real living wage and provision of appropriate channels for hearing effective workers’ voices. I join Mr McKee in congratulating HIE for being ahead of the game and proactive on the issue.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

The guidance on fair work first does not make trade union recognition a requirement for bidders; instead, it permits alternative arrangements. It also stipulates that there should be

“no inappropriate use of zero hours contracts”

instead of ruling them out completely. Will the Scottish Government commit to addressing those discrepancies?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I assure the member that we are committed to addressing the discrepancies by arguing for more powers for the Scottish Parliament over employment law in Scotland, which is the best way to strengthen the guidance and the law in this country. We do not have the powers to go much further than the position that we have outlined in our current guidance, according to which we have to demonstrate proportionality in our regulations.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

That is not very far.

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I think that we have gone very far in Scotland. Since 2019, more than £4 billion of public sector investment has been subject to fair work first criteria, which has made a real difference to tens of thousands of workers across this country.

Inequality (Fiscal Measures)

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what additional fiscal measures it will put in place to reduce inequality in Scotland. (S6O-02157)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Tackling poverty and protecting people from harm is one of the three critical and interdependent missions for the Scottish Government, and it is only with the full fiscal powers of a normal independent nation that ministers can use all the levers that other Governments have to tackle inequalities. However, our income tax policy decisions for 2023-24 are estimated to add £519 million to the budget, ensuring that we make the best use of our limited tax powers. We have allocated almost £3 billion this year to supporting policies that tackle poverty and protect people as far as possible during the on-going cost of living crisis.

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

On the morning that he was elected leader of the Scottish National Party, under a headline that said, “I’ll hammer the rich”, the First Minister declared himself to be a socialist. Can the cabinet secretary tell us whether the First Minister’s new-found socialism will extend to a proposal for a wealth tax to be brought to Parliament before the end of the year—yes or no?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

With the greatest respect, the issue is more complex than a yes or no answer, so I will set out the principled position of the Government.

We have always prioritised a fair and progressive approach to income tax policy. As I said in my original answer, that was demonstrated by the decisions that were taken in the past budget, which built on the progressivity that we have within the powers that we have. The recent work for the Institute for Fiscal Studies, for example, has shown that our progressive attitude has enabled more support to be delivered to less well-off households.

Of course, we will consider—and the First Minister has made clear that he will consider—further measures that we can introduce. I look forward to the constructive discussions that we can have with Scottish Labour on that, not just at the anti-poverty summit, but as we move forward with our deliberations on taxation policies ahead of the next budget.

Highly Protected Marine Areas (Engagement with Communities)

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what action it has taken, in addition to its public consultation, to engage with the fishing industry and the coastal communities that could be affected by highly protected marine areas. (S6O-02158)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

It has always been our intention to develop these ambitious proposals hand in hand with those who are impacted by them. The member asked about action aside from the consultation. Prior to the consultation, we met with more than 20 stakeholder groups representing a wide range of marine industries and users. Those meetings included fisheries organisations such as the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the Scottish Creel Fishermen’s Federation; aquaculture groups such as Salmon Scotland; environmental non-governmental organisations such as Scottish Environment LINK; community representatives such as Coastal Communities Network; and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

Feedback from those meetings fed directly into our consultation. Since then, from February to April, we have run 10 online information sessions to help anyone wishing to provide a response to the consultation. We have also provided additional targeted events with regional fishing industry groups such as the Western Isles Fishermen’s Association and the north east whitefish forum, and I will meet with coastal and island MSPs next week.

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that comprehensive answer. In recent weeks, I have spoken to a number of fishers across my constituency, who have expressed their concerns around highly protected marine areas. I welcome the First Minister’s commitment last week not to impose on any community a policy to which it is vehemently opposed. Will the cabinet secretary reassure the fishers whom I spoke to and make the same commitment?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I am happy to reiterate the First Minister’s commitment. I firmly believe that you do not impose policies in communities—you work hand-in-hand with them to make those policies work. I want our island and coastal communities to help to shape the creation of those areas, which is why we chose to consult so fully and so early in the process.

As I have committed to from the very beginning, site selection will be a participatory process, with meaningful community engagement at every stage.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The fishing industry and the communities built around it have been crystal clear in their opposition to this Government’s HPMA proposals, and we stand squarely behind them. However, their concerns have been cast aside by this Government time and time again. Is the dismissal of those concerns based on any sort of economic impact assessment that the Government has undertaken, or is the Government simply blind to the damage that the policy could do?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

It is astonishing that I can read out the level of consultation that has been undertaken so far and point to a full consultation right at the beginning of the process yet still be accused of what the member was narrating.

The truth of the matter is that, despite progress in improving the state of our marine environment, evidence tells us that we need to do more. The Scottish marine assessment of 2020 showed that a number of marine species were in decline, and the most recent United Kingdom marine assessment showed that, across the UK, good environmental status was not being achieved.

However, as I have said right from the beginning of this process, we recognise the strength of feeling on this and we are committed to working hand in hand with communities to make this policy work right around the country.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Does

the Scottish Government recognise that the lack of detail for communities up and down Scotland’s coastline whose livelihoods depend on the sea has caused distress and concern? When will the cabinet secretary visit Shetland to meet with the fishing and aquaculture sectors?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I have narrated some of the interaction that we have already had with the fishing and aquaculture sectors. I have personally committed to spending some time in the summer meeting communities with particular views on the issue, and I would be happy to speak with Ms Wishart on that point. However, what I do not accept is the accusation that consulting early has been problematic. We could have cherry picked areas to pilot, as other Governments have done, but I did not think that that was right. I wanted meaningful engagement right from the beginning.

Sunday Train Services (West Central Scotland)

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with ScotRail regarding improving Sunday train services in west central Scotland. (S6O-02159)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Transport Scotland regularly engages with Scottish Rail Holdings on improving ScotRail timetables, including Sunday services in the west of Scotland and beyond. Delivering a Sunday timetable has traditionally relied on overtime working. However, as part of the recent ScotRail pay deal, there is an agreement to bring Sundays into the working week within the next five years. That should end the current reliance on overtime for Sundays and present an opportunity to enhance Sunday services, not only in the west of Scotland but across the ScotRail network. In the meantime, we continue to improve the timetable, where possible.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

I declare my interest as a member of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers.

Does the minister agree that it is critically important to improve Sunday services across Scotland in order to give people more choices in public transport? Even in central Scotland, services can be as infrequent as one every two hours. As the minister said, it is a six-day service that is run on the seventh day—Sunday—entirely by the workforce volunteers, who are paid overtime.

Will the minister commit to rebuilding trust with all four rail unions, which is necessary in order for them to enter into discussions about the other conditions that would be necessary? Further, does the minister accept that those other conditions include investment in the new staff who would be required to improve services on Sundays for the public?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Obviously, I want to have a good relationship with all the trade unions that are involved in our rail network. I want to take a collaborative approach to all that we do, and, as I outlined in my initial answer, I think that we have already seen that change.

At the moment, ScotRail operates around about half the number of services on a Sunday that it does on a weekday. The Glasgow and west of Scotland area is comparatively well served, with all suburban and urban routes running a minimum of one train per hour. However, that is a reduction from the two trains per hour that operate on most services during the week.

We will move forward on this issue, and I assure Pauline McNeill and the chamber that I will do everything possible to co-operate and be collaborative with trade union colleagues.

NHS Fife (Meetings)

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

5. To ask the Scottish Government when it last met with NHS Fife and what was discussed. (S6O-02160)

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

Ministers and Scottish Government officials regularly meet with representatives of all health boards, including NHS Fife, to discuss matters of importance to local people.

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

I thank the cabinet secretary for his answer and welcome him to his new post.

I have raised consistently the issue of a new medical centre for Lochgelly, and, indeed, I have written again to the cabinet secretary just this week to report that the current premises are dilapidated and unfit for purpose. Will the cabinet secretary therefore agree to visit the medical centre in Lochgelly with me to see for himself the awful conditions that staff and patients face? Further, will he agree to review the decision not to make that project the priority that it should be?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

I recognise the local member’s long-standing interest in the replacement of the Lochgelly medical centre, and I support the replacement of the centre. Annabelle Ewing will be aware that that is one of the areas of priority for health capital funding. However, as things stand, the capital budget is already fully committed. It has also been impacted by a reduction in our capital allocation by the United Kingdom Government and the significant level of construction inflation that projects face.

That has all resulted in a lack of flexibility within our existing capital funding arrangements, which is having an impact on projects such as the replacement of the

Lochgelly medical centre.

However, I hear

Annabelle Ewing’s concerns about the particular issue and her invitation to visit the facility, and I would be more than happy to undertake that visit with her.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (Vacancies)

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what plans it has to tackle the vacancies in child and adolescent mental health services. (S6O-02161)

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

The Scottish Government remains committed to improving the mental health and wellbeing of Scotland’s population and to ensuring that everyone receives the best possible care and support from our health and care services. Delivering that can be achieved only with the right workforce capacity and capability. We have invested heavily in staffing in recent years, which is why the CAMHS workforce has more than doubled under the Government.

Responsibility for the recruitment of CAMHS staff lies with national health service boards. In “NHS Recovery Plan 2021-2026”, the Scottish Government committed to providing sufficient funding for around 320 additional staff in CAMHS over the next five years, with the potential to increase capacity for CAMHS cases by over 10,000.

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Since December last year, 190 vacancies have been listed. Eighty-nine of those were left unfilled for three months or longer. Public Health Scotland figures that were published last month showed that 70.1 per cent of children were seen by CAMHS within 18 weeks of referral. That is almost 20 per cent below the Scottish Government’s own target.

Those figures are unacceptable. When will the Scottish National Party Government make child and adolescent mental health services a priority? How will it attract people into a profession that is stretched to breaking point?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

I recognise the concerns that Meghan Gallacher has raised and assure her that

child mental health services are a priority. To underscore that fact, we have more than doubled the CAMHS workforce in the Government’s time in office. I mentioned that we are in the process of recruiting around 320 additional staff in CAMHS over a five-year period, for example. We are already at some 67 per cent progress on that recruitment programme.

We want to continue to see that workforce increase, which is why we are putting in additional investment. Meghan Gallacher will be aware that we are now seeing more people through the CAMHS network than we have ever seen before. We want to ensure that children get the right services in their local communities in the way that best meets their mental health needs. That is why we are continuing to invest in CAMHS.

Neurology Physiotherapy (Waiting Times)

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what the average waiting time is for neurology patients who are seeking an appointment with a physiotherapist. (S6O-02162)

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Information on physiotherapy waits for people with neurology conditions is not held centrally by the Scottish Government. However, Paul Sweeney may be interested in some of the work that we are taking forward to support those with neurology conditions.

In 2019, we published “Neurological Care and Support in Scotland: A Framework for Action 2020-2025”, which aims to ensure that everyone with a neurological condition can access the care and support that they need. The aims include improving the provision of co-ordinated health and social care, developing sustainable workforce models and ensuring high standards of person-centred care.

Since October 2020, we have also invested £2.1 million with national health service boards and partner organisations to fund innovative projects to achieve better outcomes for people living with neurological conditions.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

The minister will be aware that this week is multiple sclerosis awareness week. I commend the work of the MS specialist physio service that is based at the Queen Elizabeth university hospital, which works hard to support neurology patients across NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde. However, research by the MS Society has found that there is extreme pressure on physiotherapy services in Glasgow, with patients waiting for an average of 17 weeks for an appointment and 107 of 931 full-time-equivalent physio posts lying vacant. Will the minister please set out how she plans to fill those vacancies and cut the backlog of physiotherapy appointments for neurology patients so that they can access that vital support?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I thank Paul Sweeney for his question and join him in acknowledging the importance of this week being MS awareness week, with the hashtag #MSMakesMe. We want everyone who is waiting for physiotherapy, including those with a neurological condition, to be seen as soon as possible, and NHS boards are working extremely hard during challenging times to support that.

The most recent statistics show that the number of patients seen in the quarter to December 2022 was at the highest level since March 2020 and last year over 1.2 million out-patients were seen, an increase of 8 per cent since 2021, which demonstrates the progress that we are making. I recognise that it is extremely challenging and I am determined to work with health boards to ensure that we improve the current situation, as well as with third sector groups, which are also providing very worthwhile support to MS sufferers.

The Presiding Officer

Thank you. That concludes general questions. Before we move on to First Minister’s question time, I invite members to join me in welcoming to the gallery His Excellency José Alberto Briz Gutiérrez, Ambassador of Guatemala. [

Applause

.]

Cost of Ferries

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. This morning, Scotland’s Auditor General, Stephen Boyle, said this to the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee about the £300 million that the Scottish National Party estimates it will cost to build two ferries. The Auditor General said:

“it would be folly to suggest that that is a reliable”

figure for what

“will be spent to deliver the vessels at this stage”.

Will the First Minister continue to defend his Government’s estimate for those ferries, or does he agree with the Auditor General that that would be folly?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I was listening to the committee’s evidence this morning, and I will read the rest of the evidence later today. Douglas Ross will be aware that the figure that was provided to the Public Audit Committee on 22 December last year from the chief executive officer of Ferguson Marine was made up of a number of different factors. The Scottish Government is now reviewing those projections based on independent advice. That process of due diligence—which is important in any procurement programme of this size and scale but is even more important in the case of Ferguson Marine, given the cost overruns—will conclude within the next few weeks.

Regardless of that, I repeat what has been said before when this question has, rightly, been raised by members of the Opposition. It is unacceptable that we have had these cost overruns and delays to vessels 801 and 802. Once again, as First Minister—[

Interruption

.]—I apologise to island communities for those cost overruns and delays. However, we are focused on getting the vessels completed so that our island communities can see the benefit of them.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I think that even the microphone operator gave up on that answer and switched off the First Minister’s microphone because there was absolutely nothing in it.

Only a party that bought a camper van for £100,000 could think that paying hundreds of millions of pounds for two massively delayed ferries is a good deal. We all know, from the scandal engulfing the SNP, that it really struggles with finances, but this is getting ridiculous. Will the First Minister stop the secrecy and be honest for a change? How much higher is the real cost to taxpayers going to be to deliver the two ferries?

The First Minister

I am not sure that I will take too many lessons on financial literacy from the party of Kwasi Kwarteng and Liz Truss.

However, on the important issue that Douglas Ross is absolutely right to raise in the chamber, I have said that a process of due diligence is, rightly, under way. It will conclude in the next few weeks, and we will, of course, make known the result of that process. I will never shy away from saying that the cost overruns and delays in relation to the two vessels are, of course, unacceptable. To the island communities that are, frankly, frustrated and angry at the cost overruns and delays, I say that I completely accept their frustration and anger.

Therefore, we will continue to invest in Ferguson Marine and do what we can to get the vessels ready, in line with the updated timescales, but the process of due diligence is important and is due to be completed in the next few weeks.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The Auditor General knows that the £300 million figure is folly, but it seems that the First Minister does not. He does not have a clue what the actual cost will be for taxpayers in Scotland. So far, the bill for the vessels is already three times more than what was stated in the original contract—but it gets worse.

The First Minister said that he was listening to the evidence this morning, so he will have heard the Auditor General reveal that the bonus system for highly paid executives at Ferguson Marine is still in place. The two ferries are not fit to sail, costs keep spiralling out of control and islanders continue to be left without vital lifeline services. First Minister, what on earth could those bonuses possibly be for?

The First Minister

I will not disagree with Douglas Ross, nor with the Auditor General, who made it clear in the section 22 report that was published earlier this year that those bonuses should not have been paid. I agree.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

So, do something about it!

The First Minister

If Douglas Ross will listen, I will genuinely give him an answer to the question that he is absolutely right to raise. [

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Members! We will hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

The former Deputy First Minister made his anger clear. We—and I—share that anger at the fact that bonuses have been paid. Those bonuses relate to a decision that was made by Ferguson Marine’s remuneration committee, without consultation with the Government, in November 2022. I asked for those bonuses not to be paid, but the advice that has come back is that they are a contractual obligation. With regard to any future discussion about or consideration of bonuses, I have made it clear that bonuses should not be paid in relation to vessels 801 and 802. The chair of Ferguson Marine will take forward that work. It is my expectation and the Government’s expectation—the chair of Ferguson Marine knows this very well—that there should not be bonuses in the current financial year, 2023-24, in relation to vessels 801 and 802.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

On every front, the SNP is engulfed in scandal, secrecy and a shameful waste of money. [

Interruption

.] SNP members are groaning about what I have said about a waste of money when the First Minister has just accepted how much this will cost taxpayers.

This week, the SNP’s ex-treasurer, Colin Beattie, said, “It wasn’t me, guv,” when he was asked about the notorious camper van, before abruptly changing his mind. Humza Yousaf has said that he is not sure whether Scottish Government ministers are using burner phones. That is what the First Minister said. This is all starting to look like an episode of “Line of Duty”, but it is also a massive distraction that is preventing the SNP from getting on and delivering vital ferry services to island communities.

The problem for the First Minister is that he has been personally involved in the ferry scandal from the very beginning. He was at the SNP conference in 2015, beaming beside the disgraced Derek Mackay when the contract was announced. In 2016, he was behind Nicola Sturgeon, hoping that, one day, he would be the First Minister to launch a ship with painted-on windows. He was the transport minister who inspected the yard for years. We found this picture of the First Minister visiting one of the yards when he was transport minister. He was there that day to mark the halfway point in the building of the ferries. The only problem for Humza Yousaf is that this picture—taken, according to him, at the halfway point—was taken in December 2016. That was more than six years ago. First Minister, that was not the halfway point; it was not even the start of this sorry saga. How is the First Minister, who got us into this mess, going to fix it?

The Presiding Officer

Before the First Minister responds, I remind members that we do not use props in the chamber.

The First Minister

That is a sign of Douglas Ross’s desperation, his pathetic schoolboy tactics, his inability to raise his game—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members!

The First Minister

—and his inability to address what is a really serious issue.

I agree with Opposition members when they talk, rightly, about the anger in island communities over the fact that the ferries have not been completed, so I give those communities an absolute commitment and guarantee that we are focused on that and that Ferguson Marine will receive the resources that are required on the back of the due diligence that is being done on the cost.

There are things that we, as the Government, should and will apologise for, but we will not apologise for saving hundreds of jobs at Ferguson Marine in Port Glasgow. I am not surprised that Douglas Ross shakes his head; he belongs to a party that has put—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

First Minister, will you give me a moment? People are gathered here to hear the questions that are put to the First Minister and to hear his responses. Can we please ensure that that is possible?

The First Minister

When I mentioned that we have saved hundreds of jobs at Ferguson Marine in Port Glasgow, Douglas Ross was shaking his head because he belongs to a party that decimated communities up and down Scotland and left workers on the scrapheap.

In his question, Douglas Ross decided to take a swipe at the SNP. I remind him that, this week, the SNP released its membership numbers, which I am pleased have increased in the past few weeks. The Tories demanded that we release our membership figures, which we have done, but Douglas Ross does not practise what he preaches—he has not released his party’s membership figures. There is a word for people who do not practise what they preach—they are called hypocrites.

Prisons (Costs)

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. I know that the First Minister has spent the past few weeks thinking about financial mismanagement and the criminal justice system, so I will ask him about the overspend on the project to replace Barlinnie prison. Financial mismanagement is an issue not just about how the SNP is run but about how the SNP governs our country. The Government’s failure to manage the public finances has cost the taxpayer more than £3.7 billion. That is the result of failed interventions, waste and incompetence.

Earlier this week, it was reported that the cost of building a new prison to replace Barlinnie has spiralled from £100 million to £400 million. Will the First Minister confirm that that project is running over budget? What does he expect the final cost to be? Will the new prison be operational in September 2026, as planned?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Anas Sarwar raises an important issue. We are looking at the cost overruns and what can be done to mitigate their effect. I think that we all agree that Barlinnie is not in the condition that any of us would like it to be in. We are exploring what can be done.

Anas Sarwar does the debate a disservice when he talks about what he describes as more than £3 billion of waste. I have seen Labour’s press release about that, which talks about decisions that are for the Crown, such as the Rangers prosecution. Such decisions are not for the SNP Government; they are independent decisions for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. Including such figures does the debate a disservice.

We are interrogating the figures in relation to Barlinnie. Construction costs have increased for a whole number of reasons, which are partly to do with the United Kingdom Government’s complete mismanagement of the economy and are also to do with global factors, such as the war against Ukraine—Russia’s illegal invasion has affected construction costs.

The direct answer to Anas Sarwar’s question is that the cost overruns are being interrogated and we will do everything that we can to bring them down.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

It is interesting that the First Minister disputes £60 million out of £3.7 billion of waste under the SNP Government. I am sorry, but blaming Ukraine, the wider economic crisis or inflation will not work. Costs have increased by 300 per cent—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

—

at a time when inflation is running at 10 per cent. Even an SNP treasurer could tell people that those figures do not add up.

Scotland’s prison estate is in dire condition. At Greenock prison, HM chief inspector of prisons is threatening to bring in the Health and Safety Executive because of the state of the building. HM Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland has said that Inverness prison is not fit for purpose. That prison was due to be replaced at an original cost of £52 million, but the cost has now risen to almost £140 million.

In fact, all five major capital programmes in the criminal justice system are running over budget. If the First Minister truly believes in transparency, will he commit to opening the books? Would he welcome an Audit Scotland review of those projects, so that we can understand why costs are running out of control?

The First Minister

Again, I am happy to take away and explore any sensible suggestions around the cost overruns, but it is astonishing that Anas Sarwar seems to suggest that those global factors, as well as domestic factors in relation to inflation, do not have any bearing on construction costs. That is not the reality. Of course, what has not helped our economy at all is a hard Brexit, which is now, quite unbelievably, supported by the Scottish Labour Party.

Of course, Anas Sarwar is right to stand up and question the costs of HMP Barlinnie and other prisons and infrastructure projects. He is absolutely correct to do so, and he can bet his bottom dollar that those costs will be interrogated, because we are absolutely in challenging financial circumstances—again, that is no thanks to the UK Government. However, because of what happened when Anas Sarwar’s party was in charge, we are still having to pay a quarter of a billion pounds in private finance initiative payments. That certainly does not help our budget in any way, shape or form.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The First Minister talked earlier about desperation. It is really desperate to say that a 300 per cent increase in the cost of Barlinnie prison is somehow due to global factors around Ukraine and perhaps even Vladimir Putin. Sixteen years into an SNP Government, it is also desperate to talk about decisions that were made by a Government when the First Minister was 12 years old. He needs to change the script, change the record and take responsibility for a change. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

When Mr Sarwar is putting his question, I would be grateful if we could hear it and members could resist the temptation to make comments at that point.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

I can understand why SNP members are frustrated, so I will give them a bit of slack this week and maybe in future weeks as well, because, across the public sector, project after project is running out of control. In health, the initial budget for the new Baird family hospital in Aberdeen was £163 million, but the budget is now £244 million; in education, the initial budget for a new college campus in Dunfermline was £86 million, but the new budget is £119 million; and, of course, in transport, the initial budget for replacement ferries for lifeline routes was £97 million but is now running close to £300 million. While families across Scotland are working out how to make ends meet, the incompetence of the SNP Government and the First Minister is allowing millions of pounds to disappear.

This Government has been in power for 16 years and has lost its grip on taxpayers’ money and weakened every institution in our country. Scotland can no longer afford this chaotic, dysfunctional SNP Government.

The Presiding Officer

Can we have a question, Mr Sarwar?

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

It is arrogant, incompetent and out of touch, so is it any wonder that people are concluding that it is time for a change?

The First Minister

Tackling the important issues of inequality and poverty continues to be a defining mission for this Government and that is why we invested in the game-changing Scottish child payment, which has lifted many hundreds of thousands out of poverty. The first announcement that I made as First Minister was that we would not just double but triple the fuel insecurity fund. Through Social Security Scotland, seven benefits are available only in Scotland, and our social security system is based on fairness, dignity and compassion. That is our focus when it comes to tackling inequality.

Anas Sarwar says that it is desperate for us to talk about decisions that were made by the most recent Labour Government. I agree with him, because that was many moons ago—and for good reason. Of course, Jackie Baillie was, very briefly, in Government at that point. However, it is important say that the reason that we are still talking about that is that we are still paying for it. The Scottish Labour Party mortgaged not just our future, but our children’s future. The fact that we are having to pay hundreds of millions in PFI payments 16 years on is, undoubtedly, the reason why Anas Sarwar does not want us talking about it.

This Government and I take seriously the important issues around the construction of prisons and our infrastructure projects, and I give Anas Sarwar an absolute promise that we are doing everything that we can to bring those costs down.

Cabinet (Meetings)

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

3. To ask the First Minister when the Cabinet will next meet. (S6F-02033)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Tuesday.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

I am very grateful for that reply.

It is enough to fill 19,000 Olympic-sized swimming pools—that is how much sewage we know was dumped into our rivers last year by Scotland’s Government-owned water company. I say “know” because only one in 20 discharge pipes is actually monitored. In addition, new Liberal Democrat research that we are publishing today reveals more than 400 sewage dumps in the vicinity of some of Scotland’s best beaches last year. From Peterhead to St Andrews, those award-winning beaches should be protected and pristine. They draw tourists, families and wild swimmers, but, like so many other things on the First Minister’s desk right now, this absolutely stinks.

Will the First Minister now instruct the monitoring of all sewage discharges in Scotland, and what will he do to help Scottish Water to get a handle on the issue? Otherwise, how many swimming pools’ worth of poo is he content to see put on our best-loved beaches?

The First Minister

It is a serious

issue, and Alex Cole-Hamilton is right to raise it. Our beaches, of which he mentioned a number in his question, are world-class tourist destinations, so I absolutely do not want to see a single sewage dump where that is unnecessary. I will take up the issue personally with Scottish Water, and I know that my cabinet secretary is also doing so directly with Scottish Water.

Alex Cole-Hamilton is absolutely right to the issue, and I will raise it myself with Scottish Water and come back to him in due course.

Alcohol (Deaths and Harm)

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to Alcohol Focus Scotland’s emergency call to urgently take action to prevent further deaths and reduce harm from alcohol. (S6F-02048)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

F

irst and foremost, my deepest sympathy, and, I suspect, the deepest sympathy of all members in the chamber, goes to those who have been affected by the loss of a loved one through alcohol.

We remain absolutely determined to reduce alcohol-related harm. That is why we have introduced initiatives such as our world-leading minimum unit pricing. Recent research estimates that it has saved hundreds of lives. As outlined last week, I am committed to reviewing the current level of minimum unit pricing alongside other on-going work, such as the upcoming United Kingdom alcohol treatment guidelines, the development of alcohol treatment targets for April 2024 and the expansion of our residential rehabilitation capacity by 50 per cent by the end of this parliamentary session.

Last year, £106.8 million was made available to alcohol and drug partnerships to support local and national initiatives. We will carefully consider the points that have been raised by Alcohol Focus Scotland, and the Minister for Drugs and Alcohol Policy is due to meet it and other stakeholders in the coming weeks to discuss our approach to tackling alcohol harm.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

I know that the First Minister will agree that the on-going alcohol emergency requires a public health-led policy response to save even more lives and reduce health inequalities. With that in mind, I really appreciate the update on developing alcohol treatment targets. Is the First Minister able to say anything about alcohol brief interventions?

The First Minister

Stephanie Callaghan raises

an important point in relation to alcohol brief interventions. We remain absolutely committed to our ABI delivery programme, which has been in place for 10 years. We have seen excellent progress and sustained delivery of the national ABI programme across Scotland today, and I congratulate local partners on that fantastic achievement.

The alcohol framework makes a commitment to review the evidence on current delivery of ABIs to ensure that they are being carried out in the most effective manner. We are working with Public Health Scotland to review the evidence on the current delivery of alcohol brief interventions to determine how the system could better meet the needs of individuals. I will update the member in due course, once that review has been completed.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

We know from National Records of Scotland and Alcohol Focus Scotland that alcohol-specific death rates in Scotland’s most deprived areas are more than five times higher than they are in the least deprived areas. With hospital stays linked to alcohol, we see rates that are six times higher in our most deprived communities than in our most affluent. There is a clear need for improved access to alcohol-related support services in our most deprived areas, which are being badly let down by the Government.

The alcohol-related and wider health inequalities that exist in our country are both deep and divisive. The First Minister’s predecessor did little to address them. How can the country have any confidence that he will do any better?

The First Minister

I do not agree with that final point, of course. It was my predecessor, when she was health secretary, who introduced minimum unit pricing for alcohol, and it was successive health secretaries who made sure that we pushed ahead, in the face of considerable opposition to minimum unit pricing for alcohol. My understanding is that there was considerable opposition from Scottish Labour to minimum unit pricing of alcohol.

As Carol Mochan talks about saving lives, it is worth saying that the research on unit pricing of alcohol has shown that more than 150 lives a year have been saved because of MUP. It has also resulted in 411 fewer hospital admissions. It is encouraging to see in that research—I am happy to share a copy of it with Carol Mochan, because it is directly related to her question—that the policy is having an effect in Scotland’s most deprived areas, which experience higher death rates and levels of harm from problem alcohol use.

I am happy to give Carol Mochan further details on what more can be done. I am confident in saying that this Government is taking action on alcohol-related harm, particularly in the areas of highest deprivation.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

A new study from the University of Glasgow found a correlation between the minimum unit pricing policy and the 13.4 per cent reduction in deaths. However, the 50p rate was set over a decade ago and inflation has been raging since, so we need a change to catch up.

Will the First Minister bring forward the review of minimum unit pricing? Will he uprate it from 50p and bring forward legislation to tie the rate to inflation in order to save lives in the future?

The First Minister

I pay credit to Willie Rennie. He has raised this issue many times, including a few times when he raised it with me when I was the health secretary. He makes a really important point about the research.

Willie Rennie will know, because he was in Parliament at the time, that there was robust legal challenge to minimum unit pricing. We are ensuring that, when it comes to the review of minimum unit pricing, we have robust evidence in place in case there was ever to be a legal challenge to a potential increase to the minimum unit price. It is so important that we have that robust evidence base in order to determine and support any decision on a change in level of MUP.

The review of the level of MUP will be concluded in late 2023. Willie Rennie has asked me to see whether that can be brought forward. I will do that—I will have that discussion. However, I go back to my first point that it is so important that we have robust evidence in place for any decision that is made on minimum unit pricing.

Recorded Rape Statistics

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to new Police Scotland statistics showing that the number of recorded rapes has increased to its highest level in six years. (S6F-02046)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Let me say first and foremost that it is

abhorrent that women continue to face violence and rape. We will continue to take robust action to tackle sexual offending through Scotland’s equally safe strategy, which is focused on prevention, on improving support and on modernising the law. It is vitally important that anyone who faces sexual violence, and rape in particular, has the confidence and support to report the crime and that the justice system responds.

Jamie Greene will be well aware of—in fact, I think that I heard him on the radio this morning speaking about it—the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill, which was introduced to Parliament this week. That will further strengthen the response of the justice system, putting victims and witnesses, crucially, at the very heart of the justice system. It also proposes to implement the significant reforms that were recommended by Lady Dorrian in her report to improve the management of sexual offences, including creation of a specialist court for sexual offending.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

I echo many of the comments that the First Minister has made. We should also, as a Parliament, commend the bravery of those who come forward to report this horrific crime.

However, it is dangerous to make the assumption that a rise in recorded cases is simply a by-product of more people coming forward and does not show an underlying rise in the levels of crime of this nature. That is the sort of qualitative work that I would expect the Government already to be doing in this regard.

The real problem is that the entire system, from end to end, is letting the victims of crime down, from the initial reporting experience to the lengthy delays in getting trials to come to pass. It is up to four years in some cases; it is horrendous. The court experience itself is retraumatising and, even if a conviction is secured—it is an “if” because we all know that conversion rates are notoriously low in Scotland—the victim of that crime faces the injustice of watching the perpetrator being dished out a lenient sentence relative to the gravity of the crime that was committed against that victim.

Will the First Minister, as a former justice secretary himself, make a personal commitment to the victims of this horrific crime to undertake a root and branch review of how this country handles and processes cases of rape? Will he undertake a review into why the figures are at such high levels in Scotland, and will he commit to working with victims organisations and victims themselves to finally put them at the heart of the justice system? Far too many women have been let down by the system and that has to change.

The First Minister

I thank Jamie Greene for what was a really important question. Many of the points I agree with; some I will try to address, and I will come back to him in writing with further detail. He is right that we should not assume that the rise in cases is simply down to greater reporting and greater awareness, although it is fair to say that we have seen a rise in reporting of non-recent, historical cases. That is the case not just in Scotland but right across the United Kingdom and, I suspect, in many jurisdictions right across the world. There has been a focus on trying to raise awareness and reporting of cases of rape and sexual offences, in particular. There has also been a greater consistency in approach and the use of specialist police officers in that regard.

A few of the points that Jamie Greene raises, which he is absolutely right to raise, relate to the entire purpose of the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill that has been introduced. That bill will put victims and witnesses as the heart of our justice system. I had the great pleasure of meeting a number of families, activists, campaigners, victims, witnesses and survivors yesterday at a meeting to discuss the bill. I say that it was a great pleasure because, out of the most horrific circumstances and enormous tragedy, they have been at the heart of campaigning, through their bravery and courage, for better reform to the justice system. I think that it is fair to say that, by any objective measure, the bill that we have introduced is bold and ambitious. It will probably be the biggest change that we will see in our justice system, if the bill is passed, in decades—some might even say in longer than that.

Jamie Greene has asked for a root-and-branch review of sexual offences and rape cases. That review was, of course, done by Lady Dorrian, and many of the sections in the bill are a direct result of the work that was done by Lady Dorrian. We will continue to invest in the justice system to continue to bring the court backlogs down, and they are falling. Angela Constance, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, is leading on the bill and she will be engaging with every Opposition member, as you would expect her to. We will take the bill forward in as open-minded and constructive a way as we can, and I hope that all of the Parliament can take these justice reforms through together.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

The alarming statistics on rape are a further indication of ingrained levels of violence against women and misogyny across our society. Scottish Labour has been running a consultation with the full involvement of Government officials on tackling violence against women. Sadly, it has confirmed existing research findings that young girls are being subjected to a rape culture in schools and across university campuses. Many have received unwanted sexual images, which is becoming a too-normalised behaviour. I hope that the First Minister will agree that we need to tackle the root cause of the problem in our society by talking directly to boys and young men in all of our schools and campuses about their attitude to women and girls.

The First Minister

I could not agree more with Pauline McNeill’s question and the statements that she makes. When I was justice secretary, I had, again, the pleasure of seeing a programme being delivered in a school not too far away of the Parliament, which was talking directly to young boys particularly around the issue of consent. It was a really engaging session. Pauline McNeill is absolutely right that we have to tackle the root cause which, unfortunately, is predatory men, and we have to intervene as early as possible. I support everything that Pauline McNeill said in her question.

As a Government, we have supported and will continue to support EmilyTest. I know that Pauline McNeill is very aware of the fantastic work that Fiona Drouet and Emily’s family are doing, who are using a horrific tragedy to ensure that, hopefully, nobody else has to suffer what Emily had to suffer. We have supported EmilyTest to create its groundbreaking gender-based violence charter, which I think is the only initiative of its kind in the United Kingdom.

If I heard Pauline McNeill correctly, I believe that she said that the Scottish Labour Party is undertaking its own consultation. When it is ready to be published, I ask Pauline McNeill whether she would not mind sharing the results of that consultation with me and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, as I would be very interested in them.

National Health Service (Waiting Times)

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

6. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government is doing to ensure that published national health service waiting times for treatment are accurate. (S6F-02053)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Published statistics are collated and quality-assured by Public Health Scotland. They are published as part of the full release of national statistics each quarter. National statistics status means that the official statistics meet the highest standards of trustworthiness, quality and public value. The United Kingdom Statistics Authority has designated PHS stats as national statistics, therefore signifying its compliance with the code of practice for statistics.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

One in seven Scots is currently on a waiting list, and senior clinicians have warned that the waiting times statistics that are published on nhsinform.scot are both inaccurate and misleading. I wrote to the UK Statistics Authority in October last year; it agreed and asked the Scottish Government to make changes. Six months later, very little has changed. Clinicians are still up in arms about the stats being skewed and the Scottish Government continues to use median waiting times and to mix emergency and elective care.

Will the First Minister now stop pulling the wool over people’s eyes and rectify that misleading data? Can he tell us whether he published the stats while knowing about the criticism of their flaws?

The First Minister

No, we did not. We received the letter from the UK Statistics Authority. I have engaged with the Scottish Committee for Orthopaedics and Trauma—SCOT—and I am sure that the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care will continue to meet with the same organisation.

It is incorrect for Jackie Baillie to suggest that changes were not made. She is right that we received that letter in October 2022. We then worked with Public Health Scotland and NHS 24 to review and address the key points that were made. Following the recommendations of the Office for Statistics Regulation, we made a number of changes, which included highlighting both the strengths and the limitations that the data showed on the website. There are now additional links for the full release of national statistics on the PHS website, which provide further information in relation to the distribution of waiting times for patients who have completed their waits and those who are still waiting.

In relation to the criticism from SCOT, the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care will continue to meet with the organisation. I commend it, its members and all those who work in NHS Scotland for the fact that, despite significant on-going pressure, the number of out-patients who have been waiting longer than two years for a new out-patient appointment has reduced by 50 per cent since September 2022 and by more than 60 per cent since June 2022.

The Presiding Officer

We move to general and constituency supplementaries.

South Lanarkshire Sports Clubs (Price Increases)

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

The First Minister might be aware that South Lanarkshire Council has recently increased the costs to local youth teams and clubs who hire football pitches, swimming pools and halls by up to 114 per cent. I have spoken with many from across the Rutherglen constituency, who fear that they cannot afford those costs and are worried that the clubs might have to fold.

Does the First Minister agree that the Labour administration at South Lanarkshire Council should be focusing on increasing uptake of sports and physical activity; that temporarily suspending the increase is not good enough; and that, instead, it should scrap those damaging price increases without further delay?

The Presiding Officer

Before the First Minister responds, I remind members of the requirement that questions should relate to matters for which the Scottish Government has general responsibility. I ask the First Minister to answer in that light.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

While it is clearly for local administrations to determine their own priorities, I am, like Clare Haughey, frankly appalled at the actions of the Labour-led authority in South Lanarkshire. I saw a protest taking place by young people who were suggesting that it is time for Joe Fagan, the leader of South Lanarkshire Council, to go. I have to say that I think that those young people have, frankly, very good judgment indeed.

While families are facing on-going eye-watering hikes in food and energy bills and are having to cut back on other expenditure, this is not the right time to ramp up these charges and potentially deny children and young people in constituencies such as Rutherglen the chance to take part in sport. I can only hope that the council sees sense and turns the temporary reprieve into a permanent one.

Tayside Aviation

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

On Friday last week, Tayside Aviation, based in Dundee, went into administration with the immediate loss of 22 jobs. Tayside Aviation partnered with a number of universities to provide degree courses in pilot training. Students on those courses, some of them my constituents, now face an uncertain future. They are unable to complete their degrees and they have lost thousands of pounds in fees that were paid to Tayside Aviation up front, which may not be recoverable. Some students now have student loans to repay but nothing to show for the money.

How can the Scottish Government help my constituents who are caught in this desperate situation?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

This is a very important issue, and Murdo Fraser is right, of course, to raise it here. I am very saddened to hear of the job losses at Tayside Aviation, and my thoughts are with the workers who have been affected, their families and the students. I appreciate that the position has put the students in great difficulty and I understand their concerns about money that they have paid for lessons.

Anybody who is impacted should contact the joint administrators. Further information, including links to the joint administrators’ insolvency portal, is on the Tayside Aviation website.

We are actively taking steps to understand how this will impact students who were funded by the Scottish Government. University students should have been contacted directly by their university. We are also engaging with Middlesex University, which is a delivery partner for the course.

In relation to the workers, our partnership action for continuing employment team stands ready to offer any assistance that it can.

We will continue to examine and explore the issue to see what we can do to minimise the impact on the students in particular, and I will report back to Murdo Fraser in due course.

Yes Recycling (Fife)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Last week, Yes Recycling (Fife) entered administration as a result of cash flow difficulties stemming from its inability to operate at full capacity. Only opened in September last year, it is a state-of-the-art recycling centre. Now, 60 jobs are on the brink. It received £520,000 from the circular economy investment fund that is administered by Zero Waste Scotland, with funding from the European regional development fund and the Scottish Government.

What discussions has the Scottish Government had to determine why this important facility has collapsed after less than a year and why it has been unable to operate at full capacity? What support is the Scottish Government offering the employees?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I am concerned about the difficulty that Yes Recycling finds itself in. My thoughts are with the 60 staff members who work at the company and the facility in Glenrothes. This will be a very difficult time for the staff and, indeed, for their families.

To give the member some reassurance, I note that Scottish Enterprise is engaging with the administrator and will provide all possible assistance to help to maintain jobs at the site. In the unfortunate event that any individual should be facing redundancy, the Scottish Government will provide support through partnership action for continuing employment. I understand that PACE has reached out to the administrator to offer support to the affected staff. I can confirm that a local PACE team has provided information on the support that is available for employees and has requested to meet the administrators. Hopefully, through providing skills development and employment support, PACE will minimise the time that individuals affected by redundancy are out of work.

However, I will take away everything that Claire Baker has said and see whether there is anything further that we can do in relation to what is a very difficult situation at Yes Recycling in Glenrothes.

Quantum Energy Partners (Investment)

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Will the First Minister welcome this week’s announcement of planned investment by Quantum Energy Partners, to a value of £300 million, in my constituency? The investment will focus on a site in Ardersier that will develop work in offshore wind and oil decommissioning, which will bring massive benefits—benefits that might last for the remainder of the century—in employment in the renewable energy field.

Does the First Minister agree that that development strengthens yet further the case for the dualling of the A96, which is supported by more than 90 per cent of the readers of the excellent

Press and Journal

, which is the authentic voice of the north? Will he expedite, at long last, the delivery of the dualling of the section from Inverness to Auldearn, including the Nairn bypass?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Yes, I welcome the news of that very important investment. Decommissioning is integral to the pursuit of an orderly, managed transition to net zero, and it has the potential to create significant benefits and opportunities for people right across Scotland. Since 2017, through our decommissioning challenge fund, the Scottish Government has invested £12 million in supporting innovation and building capacity in the decommissioning sector.

Turning to roads, we remain absolutely committed to improving the A96. Of course, the current plan is to fully dual the route, but, as the member knows, we are currently undertaking a review of the A96 corridor, the outcomes of which we expect to be ready for consultation this summer. In addition, we remain absolutely committed to dualling the Inverness to Nairn section, including the Nairn bypass, and we will complete the statutory process for that as soon as possible.

“Adult Human Female” (Screening at University of Edinburgh)

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Last night, for the second time, the screening of the documentary “Adult Human Female” at the University of Edinburgh had to be cancelled, as protesters blockaded entrances to the venue. Women were shut out, and discussion about women’s rights was shut down. Does the First Minister agree that freedom of speech should be defended in our academic institutions? Will he join me in urging Edinburgh university to ensure that the event can take place?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I agree with Tess White on the importance of freedom of speech, especially in educational institutions such as our universities. They should be a safe space for debate and discussion, robust as that may be.

I have not seen the film in question—“Adult Human Female”—and I do not know what the contents of it are. My understanding is that there was a protest against the film taking place and then there was a separate protest, which ended up denying people who wanted to see the film access to the screening.

Of course, the issue is one for Edinburgh university. In that sense, I will not look to intervene, but I have made my stance on freedom of speech, particularly in universities, perfectly clear. I see that as not being in conflict with my stance, of which I am very proud, of supporting trans rights, which I am unequivocal about.

However, we should ensure that our universities—and society more generally—are places where we can have even robust exchanges of ideas. I am sure that Edinburgh university will have heard what I have had to say and what Tess White has had to say, but it is important that, ultimately, the decision is one for the university to take.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s question time. The next item of business is a members’ business debate, which will be led by Ariane Burgess. There will be a short suspension to allow people to leave the chamber and the public gallery before the debate begins.

12:48 Meeting suspended.

12:50 On resuming—

Community-led Housing Supporting a Sustainable Future

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-08476, in the name of Ariane Burgess, on community-led housing supporting a sustainable future. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament recognises what it sees as the vital role of community-led housing in tackling what it considers is the rural and island housing crisis, and in supporting those communities towards a sustainable future; believes that there are diverse and significant challenges facing rural and island communities in providing housing and the varied implications this has for sustaining the rural population; recognises what it considers as the enabling role of community housing trusts and organisations, such as South of Scotland Community Housing, Communities Housing Trust and Rural Housing Scotland, which support communities through what it understands can be a burdensome and long process; notes the belief that more can be done to facilitate community-led housing and remove barriers to locally-based projects; further notes the view that there is a need to support community-led affordable housing as a priority, and that the upcoming Land Reform and Community Wealth Building bills have the potential to do so; congratulates those organisations that have accomplished community housing projects and utilised available funds, such as the Rural and Island Housing Fund; considers that there is a need to learn from these organisations and continually improve, and congratulates what it sees as trailblazing projects that are testing alternative models, such as rented cohousing in the Hope CoHousing project in Orkney, and creating place-based communities through models such as Stòras Uibhist and Rural Housing Scotland’s Smart Clachan project.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

It is said that 1,000 affordable homes across the north and west of the Highlands would have a more positive impact than adding 1,000 houses to the urban sprawl of Inverness or tacking them on to Nairn. I first heard that from Ailsa Raeburn of Community Land Scotland. I heard it again when talking to Ewen McLachlan of the Assynt Development Trust in relation to the trust’s ambitious community-led housing and place-making project in Lochinver, and I have heard it from others. Building four or six new homes in a village can be transformational.

We have a commitment to build 11,000 new and affordable rural homes by 2032. All too often, our rural and island communities are low on the priority list. Let us not leave it until 2028 to turbocharge that effort. We have what we need in place to deliver the experience and effort in all parts of rural and island Scotland, but we need input from the Government to streamline funding and delivery processes, and we need public bodies to work constructively with communities, recognising that their needs are different from those of private developers.

The remote, rural and islands housing action plan is due imminently and should acknowledge that we have the necessary know-how and local commitment, as well as a history of constructive partnership working. With the commitment of £25 million to help councils to buy affordable homes for key workers in rural communities, the First Minister has recognised that something must be done.

There is a range of measures in place, or being developed, to ensure that we steer housing away from the extraction model and towards one that will lay the foundations of a wellbeing economy and will build community wealth. Those measures include regulation of the short-term lets market and a consultation on council tax on second and empty homes, but we still need to get on with building new homes in places where nothing is available. Young people and families are crucial to ensuring the long-term future of our communities, but, if they cannot find affordable homes, they cannot stay or settle in a place.

Communities in the Highlands and Islands have been leading the way and are ready to do more. The rural and islands housing fund and the Scottish land fund are game changers. With Greens in the Government, both funds have been secured, with a commitment to increase them. Greens have also secured a commitment to ensure that community housing trusts are adequately funded to support the delivery of our enhanced rural homebuilding plans. Those trusts are crucial in helping communities to find confidence and build capacity to take on their homebuilding and place-making projects.

The people at the heart of those organisations have been working on this for long enough to understand the hurdles that communities must overcome. They can help with building design, financial packages and the mix of tenures, and they can bring together constructive partnerships. In my region, the work that the Communities Housing Trust has undertaken is not only about housing. The trust supports communities in relation to place making and community wealth building by ensuring that income-generation elements go beyond housing.

In the Highlands, along with providing 25 houses, the Gairloch and Loch Ewe Action Forum has developed a tourist information hub, shops and training facilities. On Skye, the Staffin community trust, as well as providing new homes, workshops and business units, rents a purpose-built health centre to NHS Highland, which makes much-needed medical services more accessible for people. In Moray, the Tomintoul and Glenlivet Development Trust has recently handed over 12 eco-homes to new residents and is developing a bunkhouse.

Pipeline projects include those by Assynt Development Trust, the Invergarry Development Trust and Woodland Trust Scotland. They all have housing in their plans, along with other amenities including woodland crofts, path networks, enterprise work units, and education and training facilities.

Given the desperate need for affordable housing in my region, I know that Highlands and Islands Enterprise would love to see the CHT’s capacity being doubled. It has told me that we have much employment potential in the region, but, without housing, we will not be able to take full advantage of it. I have heard from communities that want to develop co-housing models, in which housing is designed to include shared common spaces. Hope CoHousing in Orkney, supported by Orkney Islands Council, is establishing the United Kingdom’s first rented tenure co-housing for over-50s. It says that it will involve

“looking out for each other, not looking after each other”.

With the Government’s commitment to a preventative approach, and the rapid closure of care homes in rural Scotland, that model must be urgently explored and invested in—not just for over-50s but for intergenerational housing for families.

I come back to the 1,000 new homes in the Highlands. The CHT and the communities that it is working with propose rolling them out at scale, just as though we were building a housing development in Inverness. That could be done by setting up hubs, which would be staging areas for materials and equipment at key locations so that we would not be starting from scratch every time. Materials could be purchased in bulk for a number of projects, which would reduce costs and carbon emissions from hauling them for long distances and would create local employment. That would utilise the often-overlooked north Highland circular economy and community wealth-building potential.

The model is not just for the Highlands; it could work in other parts of my region and in the south of Scotland. I have focused on rural housing, but we also have beautiful but neglected town centres that are ripe for redevelopment into housing. In the south of Scotland, we have the transformational Midsteeple Quarter in Dumfries, which is supported by South of Scotland Community Housing. It is being keenly studied both nationally and internationally, and Scott Mackay from the project will be the keynote speaker at the upcoming town centre regeneration conference in Moray.

As the minister will know, town centre redevelopment and retrofitting align well with our new national planning framework. Such initiatives should be enabled across Scotland. That process needs to start with a pilot project fund for market towns that would be similar to the rural and islands housing fund.

I welcome the minister’s keenness to understand the need in Scotland’s rural and island places and his intention to make visits. However, communities know what they need, and they have a proven track record and a tremendous network for peer-to-peer learning. Community-led housing enables rural communities to thrive and is an investment in people and place.

Let us support communities to get on with it and follow their lead. Let us deliver on the Bute house agreement commitments, fund the enablers, invest in the set-up of hubs for materials and prioritise a dedicated workforce. Let us start rolling out community-led housing at the scale that will be needed if we are to reach our ambitious commitment to deliver more affordable homes by 2032.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

Given that Brexit has already made it far more difficult for farmers and rural businesses to recruit people, I am sure that all members will welcome the new housing minister’s creation of a £25 million fund for affordable homes for key workers in rural areas. That comes on top of a commitment to deliver 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, with at least 10 per cent of those being in remote, rural and island areas.

I also welcome the minister’s announcement of a delivery plan to address issues relating to transport, repopulation and economic development. In Balmaha, a rural village in my constituency, a 20-unit project supported by the Communities Housing Trust and the Scottish Government cannot get on to site because no contractors are willing to work in that area. I hope that the minister will consider that urgently in his delivery plan.

Although we welcome the new providers, we should recognise the significant contribution that community-based housing associations and the co-operative movement have made to housing across Scotland. However, the Parliament needs to recognise that the movement is under severe threat from the Scottish Housing Regulator. The regulator was set up to protect the interests of tenants, and it is completely independent of Scottish ministers. It reports to Parliament only once a year, and its decisions, unlike the decisions of the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator, cannot be appealed to an independent body.

I worked for housing associations for 25 years, but I do not speak only from personal experience. A former director of one housing association said:

“Our tenants did not need protection by the regulator, but they needed protection from it.”

The regulator has intervened in several community-led housing organisations in recent years. That has involved third-party investigations by consultants who are approved by the regulator and are paid £1,000 per day. That has resulted in costs of literally hundreds of thousands of pounds of tenants’ money and in several community-based housing associations merging with larger organisations.

A recent proposal to merge Reidvale Housing Association, one of Glasgow’s most successful community-owned housing associations, prompted the director of one representative body to claim that the regulator

“has an unwritten ‘merger culture’”

that reflects

“an indifference to smaller scale community ownership”.

At the same time, however, the regulator has presided over the failure of Scotland’s second-largest landlord, Dumfries and Galloway Housing Partnership, which owned 12,000 properties. Following serious Government failings, DGHP concluded that it could not continue as an independent organisation and joined the Wheatley Group.

However, the situation is far worse than that. The January 2020 edition of

Scottish Housing News

reported “heavy-handed interventions” by the regulator’s staff, with a common theme of bullying. It said:

“the style of work employed by the”

regulator

“is aggressive, over the top and frightening”.

A constituent recently presented me with credible and supported evidence of the regulator’s bullying. That approach resulted in staff feeling suicidal and unable to work. However, when I asked the regulator’s chair to independently investigate those very serious allegations, he refused, saying that the regulator’s board had been assured by staff that all was in order. He also failed to release information to me that I had requested as a member of Parliament.

Members will be aware of the tragic case in England in which a headteacher took her own life following an Ofsted inspection of her school. I am worried that, without an urgent independent investigation into the regulator’s practices, something like that could happen in a Scottish housing association.

It is great that the rural housing organisations that are mentioned in Ariane Burgess’s motion can flourish and innovate, and long may that continue outwith the regulator’s scope of activities.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I remind members that speeches should be about four minutes.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I congratulate Ariane Burgess on securing the debate. Before I get into the meat of the subject that she has raised, however, I highlight that what Evelyn Tweed had to say should be taken extremely seriously, and the matter should be investigated by the minister as a matter of urgency and taken forward in some way.

I turn to community-led housing, which is the subject of the debate. I know how passionately Ariane Burgess feels about it, because we both sit on the cross-party group on housing. We recently held a session—in fact, it was our most recent meeting—at which we looked at community-led housing and discussed some of the projects that Ariane Burgess mentioned, including the project in Gairloch, where 25 affordable homes are being built, and the one in Staffin.

It is fair to say that community-led housing is a success story, where it exists in Scotland. It provides an additional supply of homes, it helps the local economy and local industry, it encourages investment in communities and it helps younger people to realise their housing ambitions.

At the meeting that I mentioned, we heard from Ailsa Raeburn, the chair of Community Land Scotland; Ronnie MacRae, from Communities Housing Trust; and Mike Staples, from South of Scotland Community Housing. Following the meeting last month, I, as convener of the cross-party group, wrote to the then Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, Shona Robison, with the following asks. First, we asked the Government to publish the remote, rural and islands action plan; secondly, we asked that it consider forming a Government action group; thirdly, we asked it to commit to funding the activities of intermediary organisations; fourthly, we asked for a review of grant conditions for community-led housing; and, fifthly, we asked for funds to be made available for urban community-led housing, which Ariane Burgess mentioned in her speech, because it is not only rural housing that we are talking about.

Fast-forwarding to the present, we now have a dedicated housing minister who, to his credit, has responded swiftly to the CPG. He sent a letter dated 12 April, which I am happy to share with any member who wishes to see it. It covers most of the things that we addressed in our letter—in some respects, it is quite vague, which is not unusual for a letter from a minister, but at least it is a response. The minister has also offered to meet me—I think that that offer should include Ariane Burgess—and I hope that he will attend a meeting of the cross-party group at which we can discuss this subject, which I recognise that he feels strongly about, too.

This is an example of where Parliament can work together and shows the value of cross-party groups. If we remove party politics from an issue, we can achieve good things.

I thank the minister for his encouraging response and his approach to this issue, and, once again, I thank Ariane Burgess.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

Before I begin, I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests, which states that I am the owner of a private rented property in the North Lanarkshire Council area.

Today’s debate on community-led housing is welcome, particularly as it allows us to discuss the role that that can play in addressing the rural and island housing crisis. I congratulate my colleague from the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee on securing the debating time today.

I am an MSP for Central Scotland, and there are actually many rural villages in my region. People who live in those villages tell us that they feel very distant from Edinburgh, Glasgow and other cities in Scotland. They also tell us that they know best what suits their own area and what does and does not work, which is a sentiment that would be reflected in all of Scotland’s communities. That is a vital reminder for us that a one-size-fits-all policy or decision rarely works for all of Scotland. Even worse, such decisions can sometimes have a negative impact if they lose the buy-in of the communities that they impact in a way that is not desired.

We can all agree that more can and should be done to facilitate community-led housing and remove barriers to locally based projects that rely on local knowledge and local input about what people’s needs are and what local people think are the solutions for their own towns and villages.

In November last year, I visited the Western Isles to learn about the severe housing crisis there and the impact of the cost of living crisis that people faced. That was at the start of a devastating winter that would leave 80 per cent of residents in fuel poverty. They felt badly let down by the UK Government’s energy support scheme because their heating oil and solid fuel had not been capped. Residents, the council and local organisations said that they felt let down by the Scottish Government, too. Tighean Innse Gall, or TIG, which is the organisation tasked with delivering the area-based scheme for the council, cited a lack of rural proofing in the PAS 2035/2030 retrofit standards as the reason for the closure of its insulation department, with the loss of 14 jobs and the loss of that service.

The Hebridean Housing Partnership told me about its maintenance regime. Maintaining its stock is absolutely crucial considering that that stock bears the brunt of the Atlantic weather. The partnership talked about how a potential social sector rent freeze might impact on its ability to do that good work.

I also heard about the huge variations in the costs of building housing in the Western Isles. It costs tens of thousands of pounds more to build on Barra than on Lewis. Most decision makers in Edinburgh would consider the Western Isles to be one homogeneous area, but, in fact, there are real differences there.

We debated Scotland’s national housing emergency yesterday. However, as Ariane Burgess’s motion points out, for rural and island communities, the emergency is compounded by the diverse and significant challenges that they face, with the implications that that has for sustaining their populations. Ferries, fuel poverty, the increased costs of just about everything, the ability to access healthcare and education and poor digital connectivity all interact with the housing crisis and make island and rural life extremely challenging.

Local people will say that they know best what does and does not work for them. We should trust them to tackle their own local housing emergency. They know best, and we should give them the tools to do that.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Since I was elected to represent Orkney, back in 2007, challenges around housing have rarely been off the radar, but I cannot recall a time when demand for housing has been so out of kilter with supply and the need for new investment, new thinking and new approaches has been so obvious and, indeed, urgent. Therefore, I thank Ariane Burgess for allowing members this brief opportunity to debate at least some of the issues, concerns and potential solutions in the area.

The motion focuses specifically on community-led housing, which is entirely reasonable, but it is worth acknowledging that that is only one element—albeit an important one—of a wider debate.

I welcome the specific rural target that is now set within the Government’s overall commitment to building 110,000 affordable homes by 2032. That is helpful, but we are off the pace in meeting both the overall and the rural-specific targets.

That underlines the urgency of the minister coming forward with the remote, rural and islands housing plan that was originally promised for spring this year. Indeed, it would be helpful if the minister could spell out what role he expects community-led housing to play in that plan, including co-housing, which is not mentioned at all in the Government’s vision in “Housing to 2040”. However, whatever is in the plan will need to go hand in hand with a commitment to adequate funding. Without question, funding gaps remain the single biggest issue highlighted by all the stakeholders to whom I have spoken in Orkney, including all those involved in community-led housing initiatives.

The sources of the costs are many and various. Acquiring land and planning permission can be costly and time consuming. That is often the obstacle at which community-led housing projects fall. Projects often compete for land with private developers who have easier access to funds. Material costs are high and getting higher and, in the pre-construction phase, the cost of getting surveyors’ reports, building warrants and legal advice can run into six figures, even for quite modest developments.

There is often a relative shortage of contractors and indeed professional support in rural and island communities, particularly when there is a lot of building going on. That is certainly the case in my Orkney constituency. Looking further ahead, the introduction of the welcome higher standards in relation to Passivhaus will inevitably increase costs further. Those high and increasing costs are not being matched at the moment by increasing commitments to funding. The value of the funding that is currently available is being inflated away, so the Government needs to address this particular issue—and, as Mark Griffin said, there will be variability within island groups and within rural areas.

In the time remaining to me, I would like to particularly welcome the reference in Ariane Burgess’s motion to the Hope CoHousing project in Orkney. It was not recognised in the “Housing to 2040” strategy; I hope that that will now be addressed. It is an initiative that builds a community of homes with shared functions and amenities, bringing together groups of private individuals who are looking out for—rather than looking after—each other. It provides collective living and is mutually supportive. It has particular benefits for older members of the population, as it addresses issues of social isolation and loneliness through joint activities and interactions and, in turn, it keeps individuals engaged within the wider community, strengthening those communities as well. The Hope CoHousing model is slightly different in that it is a rental model rather than the leaseholder model that has been more traditionally pursued.

It offers older people the opportunity to live somewhere between independent living and care homes and formal retirement housing, reducing care costs and maintaining that sense of independence and agency. However, there are challenges. There is no obvious source of funding for the pre-construction phase, and, in the case of Hope CoHousing, that cost amounted to over £150,000, so the Government needs to look at that particular aspect as well as at making it easier for community-led housing projects to acquire land and to be facilitated through the planning process.

Housing—community-led housing, in particular—is crucial to sustaining and building resilience in our rural and island communities and I very much hope that the Government will embrace that and take on board some of the ideas that have been referred to in this debate. The Government would certainly get my support in those endeavours.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

I thank the member for the Highlands and Islands, Ms Burgess, for her members’ business motion today.

Community-controlled housing associations are vitally important to the prosperity of communities across Scotland. In recent years, we have seen more and more of them being swallowed up by larger, locally unaccountable housing associations, many with head offices outwith Scotland. That is a great shame, because the whole purpose of social housing in Scotland is to ensure that there is a social element to the basic commodity of housing. There is a rich history of success in the community-controlled housing sector. It is not—or, at least, it should not be—a method for wealth extraction or the stripping of assets that are currently owned and managed in the community; it should not be a corporate game of boardroom Monopoly with no get-out-of-jail-free card for tenants when the big boys fail to deliver; and it should not be a lever by which to control finance, remove democratic power and exert unwelcome external influence.

If we go back to the original pioneering days of the Glasgow Corporation slum clearances and the first community housing association that was set up to save those tenement districts in Glasgow, we see that it was done on the basis that those taking control of the assets were management committees of committed volunteers, elected by local people, who were rooted in their communities and knew what was best for the local people who lived and worked there. That was the very genesis of community-controlled housing associations and, sadly, I fear that we are swiftly departing from that stated aim.

Let me just put on the record that not all large housing associations are bad. In some instances, they are actually very good, and there is undoubtedly a role for them to play in this sector. However, we are now seeing community-controlled housing associations that are financially robust, solvent and providing great services to their tenants being taken over at board level and railroaded into mergers, with promises of a land of milk and honey.

There is no better example of that than Reidvale Housing Association in the east end of Glasgow, as the member for Stirling pointed out earlier. It was set up in 1975 as one of the first community-run housing associations in the UK. It acquired a swathe of tenement properties in Dennistoun and prevented the evisceration of that community. Since then, it has refurbished its 900 properties and brought its community back to life through the introduction of traffic-calming measures in a densely populated part of Glasgow. Indeed, it is one of the most attractive communities to live in in the city today.

Reidvale Housing Association is financially robust, solvent and able to easily provide the services that its tenants and the wider community require. Yet, it has been earmarked for what is being dubbed as a transfer but is in reality a takeover. The housing association that is looking to acquire Reidvale’s assets and stock has named itself Places for People Scotland, yet in reality it is a massive England-based parent company called Places for People, which operates in Scotland as Castle Rock Edinvar Housing Association—some of our Edinburgh colleagues may be aware of it. They may also be aware that the parent company appoints Castle Rock Edinvar Housing Association’s board and that it can remove members at will, as well as placing its own staff on the board. Currently, the Reidvale board is elected annually at its annual general meeting by tenants and other service users, and the board members are free and able to stand for election. That is a democratic right that will be ripped away if Places for People and Castle Rock Edinvar get their way.

To entice current Reidvale residents, the company is offering a five-year rent freeze guarantee, despite the housing regulator’s website showing that Places for People’s rents elsewhere in the country are up to 26 per cent higher than the Scottish average. Let us have a quick look at its performance compared to Reidvale’s: the average rent that is charged by Reidvale for a three-bedroom flat is £69 per week; Places for People charges £98 per week. Reidvale has a current overall satisfaction rate of 95 per cent; PFP has a satisfaction rate of 81 per cent. Eighty-nine per cent of Reidvale’s stock meets the Scottish housing quality standard; quite shockingly, only 3 per cent of PFP’s stock meets those standards. Reidvale’s average response time for emergency repairs is three hours; PFP takes 14 hours on average, which is more than four times slower. For non-emergency repairs, Reidvale takes one day on average; PFP takes 17 days, which is 17 times slower.

The whole thing stinks, and it begs the question: why? Why would a housing association that is predominantly based in England with an outpost in Edinburgh want to acquire a Glasgow-based housing association? I think that the answer is quite straightforward: profit. It knows that it would be incredibly profitable in the long term, due to the area in which Reidvale sits, and it knows that it will be incredibly profitable because Reidvale is a profitable organisation with zero debt.

I am conscious of the time, but, just before I finish, I will say that the minister and the Government more generally will be wondering why this is a political issue and not something that can just be left to the regulator to sort out. The reality is that, unless we introduce legislation in the Parliament that compels the Scottish Housing Regulator to provide on-going practical support to community-controlled housing associations to ensure that they are not swallowed by poorly performing behemoths, this charade will continue unabated. Organisations that have a proven track record of bringing about regeneration, prosperity and inclusivity to neighbourhoods and communities are being lost. If we are all going to stand here and wonder why that is happening, while allowing it to happen, we are all complicit.

The modus operandi of the big, unaccountable housing associations is to build new soulless schemes. We do not need that, especially not in Glasgow. We need strong, locally-run community controlled housing associations that are rooted in our local areas and are determined to grow and develop, with quality and inclusivity at the forefront of their minds, alongside providing a real influencing role for tenants and volunteers. Let us be clear that, like every other sector in this country, the big players and corporates do not do this out of the goodness of their hearts: they do it because it makes them very rich. They can dress it up all they like with promises that they will not keep, but I can assure them that we and the local community will fight them every step of the way.

I ask colleagues across all parties to seek to agree to the need for legislative and regulatory change urgently in order to preserve and further develop a community-controlled housing model that will continue to serve Scotland’s people well and deliver the real and measurable outcomes for its communities that we sorely need.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I refer members to my entry in the register of interests. This is the third housing-related debate within a week, and, as I said yesterday to Mr Griffin and others, I welcome as many housing debates as possible to discuss the issues that have been raised. I thank Ariane Burgess for securing the debate in the chamber in order to highlight the important role that community-led housing plays in rural and island communities, as well as the vital role that organisations play in supporting areas to bring forward their own housing projects to meet people’s needs in their localities.

Housing of the right type and in the right place can have a powerful, intergenerational impact, as we all know, supporting people to access the housing that they need, enabling young people to stay in the communities they grew up in and supporting local businesses to retain and attract employees. Community-led housing plays an important role in our broad approach to deliver more affordable homes in our remote, rural and island communities. To the point that Mr Sweeney made, it is not just in those communities; it is across Scotland in our urban communities, too. I will pick up that issue with the member later, if that is okay.

The Scottish Government wants everyone to have a warm, energy-efficient home that meets their needs. That is why housing is a key part of the interdependent missions that were published this week. We are clear in the “Equality, opportunity, community” document that affordable housing is a key part of our mission to prioritise our public services. The document sets out two important plans for rural areas. The first one is obviously the published rural delivery plan, which focuses on how all parts of the Scottish Government are delivering for rural Scotland, including through our policies in areas such as agriculture, land reform, repopulation, economic development, transport and, of course, housing.

We will also publish a remote, rural and islands housing action plan that will set out our approach to rural housing delivery, including support for community housing projects. When that is published, I want to meet and engage with as many stakeholders as I possibly can. That is open to anybody in the chamber—please invite me to come along and speak to organisations that you think it would be useful for me to speak to in that context.

The plan will include up to £25 million from our affordable homes budget to allow properties, including empty homes, to be purchased or long leased and turned into homes for rural key workers and others who need affordable housing in rural areas.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Although I very much welcome the funding that the minister referred to, I understand that it is targeted through councils and RSLs. That is understandable to some extent, but it excludes development trusts, which can play a pivotal role in the delivery of housing in rural and island communities. Might he reflect on whether routing through development trusts might be added to that funding pot?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Yes, I will look into that and come back to Liam McArthur, if that is okay.

As I said, that is in addition to the £30 million programme through the affordable housing supply programme. That fund plays an important role in offering community organisations and others who are not able to access traditional affordable house funding a way to deliver affordable homes in remote, rural and island areas while complementing delivery through our mainstream programme by councils and housing associations. There is also the point that Mr McArthur made about development trusts.

That programme has been a success. Between 2016 and 2017 and 2021 and 2022, we supported the delivery of 8,000 affordable homes in rural and island areas. We are now working towards our target of 110,000 homes by 2023, 70 per cent of which will be available for social rent and 10,000 of which will be in remote, rural and island communities. That is backed up by £3.5 billion of funding in this parliamentary term.

Alongside that new delivery, it is important that we ensure that local areas have the tools to make use of their existing housing stock. I will come on to that in relation to some of the contributions in a minute or so.

Over the past decade, the growth of online platforms has fuelled the trend for residential homes, particularly in tourist hotspots, to be changed from primary homes to short-term lets or second homes. That can cause problems for local residents and make it harder for local people, particularly young people or those with fewer resources, to find homes to live in. We also remain concerned about the number of empty homes in Scotland that could be brought back into use for people to live in. There is a review of that at the moment, which will be published later this year.

On 17 April, we announced a joint public consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on giving local authorities the power to increase council tax on second and empty homes as well as on considering whether the current non-domestic rates thresholds for self-catering accommodation remain appropriate. That is the first joint consultation with COSLA, recognising that local authorities have an essential role in considering the right balance in their local areas, taking into account local needs.

Every community is different. Although some have experience of delivering housing solutions to meet their own specific housing needs, some do not. Ariane Burgess mentioned South of Scotland Community Housing and Communities Housing Trust among other organisations. Those have been, and continue to be, vital in supporting those communities to realise their housing ambitions.

Opportunity, equality and community are vital to everyone, no matter where they live. However, delivering affordable housing in rural and island areas presents additional challenges. We cannot lose sight of the fact that the delivery of more homes in those communities is vital, with solutions developed collaboratively by partners including community groups, rural housing enablers and local authorities among others to drive projects forward to delivery.

Community-led local development was mentioned, which is key in supporting thriving and resilient rural communities. The community-led local development network of local action groups works across Scotland’s rural and island communities and is important for delivering grassroots projects with local determination, which can address a number of rural development projects.

I will touch on a few of the contributions. Ariane Burgess mentioned construction and employment, which I would be keen to discuss with her. That is important not only in our rural communities but across our delivery programme. I totally agree that community-led housing is an economic enabler in the wider community. It can drive communities.

Mr Griffin mentioned his visit to the Western Isles. I visited South Uist a number of months ago with the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Housing there would drive forward economic prosperity, which is vitally important.

On the points made by Evelyn Tweed regarding the regulator, the regulator operates independently; it reports directly to the Scottish Parliament. I am happy to take up any issues that she and Paul Sweeney raised in that regard.

Graham Simpson talked about me meeting with the cross-party group. I would be delighted to meet him and the group, and I hope to come along to the next meeting. If I can get the date in the diary, I am more than happy to do that.

Mark Griffin talked about his visit.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

I heard the minister say that he is going to look into the concerns that both Mr Sweeney and I raised. I completely understand that the Scottish Housing Regulator is independent of Government. However, if it is operating in a way that is not good for community-led housing associations across Scotland, is it not for the Government to look at that?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

As I said, the regulator reports to the Parliament. I will take advice from officials about how we can address it. I am happy to meet Evelyn Tweed and Paul Sweeney, and officials, to discuss the issues that have been raised.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

The Glasgow and West of Scotland Forum of Housing Associations has been very strident in its concerns about the behaviour of the regulator as well as about the culture of consultancy that has crept in around it. That is a very insidious and potentially corrupt practice that needs to be urgently investigated, and I urge the minister to look into it.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I make that commitment. I will take that on. I am happy to meet

Paul Sweeney and Evelyn Tweed in that regard.

The point that Mr Sweeney made about community-controlled housing associations is key. It is about not only our community-led organisations but organisations throughout Scotland. He mentioned in his speech how important that is in some areas in Glasgow.

Mr McArthur mentioned community-led housing and the target, which is incredibly important.

The co-housing model is also worth considering. I worked with a number of extra-care housing groups and set up an extra-care housing task force, which had a parliamentary event and a stall here. That model is key to how we explore rural housing.

I thank members for their contributions. I am delighted that this is the third housing debate that we have had in a week. I am aware of the time, so I will conclude.

I thank Ariane Burgess for bringing the debate forward and all those who took part. I recognise the crucial role that community-led housing plays in our vital rural and island communities. As I said, the offer is there; I am happy to visit any suggested groups that members think it would be worth while for me to go and visit. I am grateful for the work that has been undertaken and that continues to be undertaken by communities and rural housing developers to deliver more affordable homes in our rural and island communities. They deserve that.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes the debate.

13:32 Meeting suspended.

14:29 On resuming—

Education and Skills

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio questions on education and skills. I remind members who wish to ask supplementary questions to press their request-to-speak buttons during the relevant question. There is an enormous amount of interest in asking supplementaries, so if I am to get them in—I will try—supplementaries will need to be brief, with no long preambles or five questions masquerading as one. I invite, and would be much obliged to have, brevity, as far as that is possible, in ministers’ responses.

The first question comes from Colin Smyth, who joins us remotely.

Learning Estate Investment Programme

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government for what reason there has been a delay in announcing the projects that will form phase 3 of the learning estate investment programme. (S6O-02148)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I understand that local authorities are keen to get clarity on phase 3 of the learning estate investment programme. In March, the Scottish Government wrote to all local councils to explain that consideration was still on-going for the projects that would form phase 3, and set out the further time that was needed to consider the scope of phase 3, including the need to take account of the impact of market volatility on current projects. However, I am committed to announcing the successful projects by June.

The learning estate investment programme follows on from the successful £1.8 billion Scotland’s schools for the future programme, which delivered 117 new or refurbished schools across Scotland.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

I do not think that I heard an explanation for the delays. On 22 December 2021, the Scottish Government told Parliament that the projects that will form phase 3 will be announced “within ...12 months” but, 16 months on, we are no further forward.

I hope that, this time, the Government will stick to its new timetable, because the consequences of those delays are that projects such as Dumfries learning town have been put on hold, and the overall cost of projects will be higher, due to the delays. Will the Government ensure that there will be additional funding to take account of the construction inflation—including funding to cover the council’s share of those costs, which have been caused by the Government’s delays—so that no project loses out as a result of the delays?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

In my initial response, I gave an outline in relation to the delay, and that related to market volatility. Colin Smyth will also appreciate that we have had a change in cabinet secretary and that, therefore, there has been a pause in that respect. However, I am absolutely committed to bringing forward the programme in time for the June deadline that I set out.

It is worth recognising that the latest school estate statistics show that a record number of schools are now in good or satisfactory condition: the proportion of schools in good or satisfactory condition has increased from 61 per cent in April 2007 to just over 90 per cent in April of last year. That is welcome news and there is more that we can do. I recognise the member’s interest in the matter and I look forward to giving him an update in the coming weeks.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Recent analysis has shown that, between 2015 and 2022, the cost of construction materials including cement, timber and steel increased by 60 per cent. Can the cabinet secretary outline the pressures that that brings to delivery of projects such as new schools and how the Scottish Government is tackling that?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As we heard at First Minister’s question time today, there has been a period of particular market volatility, which has impacted on a lot of infrastructure projects. From my previous experience as Minister for Transport, I know that between 2015 and 2022 material, labour and overall project costs have steadily increased. We need to be mindful of that pressure and recognise what it brings to some of our projects, but I absolutely commit to Parliament to bring back an update on the LEIP, because I know how vitally important it is that we invest in our schools estate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The next question comes from Neil Bibby, who joins us remotely.

West College Scotland

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government when it last met with West College Scotland, and what was discussed. (S6O-02149)

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

The Scottish Government’s most recent engagement with West College Scotland was last week, on Tuesday 18 April. My officials met members of the senior management team, as part of a programme of active engagement on the interim purpose and principles for post-school education, research and skills that were published last December. The discussion focused on the college’s reflections on the interim purpose and principles.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Recent months have been particularly tough for Inverclyde, with job losses at Amazon. Meanwhile, West College Scotland’s Finnart Street campus in Greenock has expired and urgently needs to be replaced, but plans for a new campus keep getting kicked down the road. Does the minister accept the need for a new college campus in Inverclyde? Will the minister meet me to discuss that issue as well as support for the existing estate, to make sure that it remains fit for purpose and compatible with net zero targets?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

There has been an increase in the Government’s capital funding for colleges this financial year, but I recognise the challenges that colleges are facing not only around maintenance but in relation to upgrading and replacing buildings. In relation to West College Scotland, I am aware of issues with the Oakshaw building in Paisley, for which, I believe, the Scottish Funding Council has provided support of £500,000 towards a temporary rewiring solution. As Mr Bibby alluded to, I also know that the SFC has provided financial assistance to the college to update the outline business case for improving the situation at Greenock.

If an opportunity arises to meet the college in due course, I will be happy to accept that and to discuss whichever matters it might wish to discuss.

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

This Scottish National Party-led Scottish Government is providing our further education students with record levels of support—£141 million in 2021, which is a 54 per cent increase in real terms since 2006-07. Will the cabinet secretary detail how that investment in the future of our young people is benefiting students such as those at West College Scotland?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Our investment continues to make a real difference to the lives of young people across Scotland by helping them to continue in their studies. West College Scotland is one of our largest colleges, with more than 20,000 students. It provides valuable opportunities for those who are furthest from the workplace. It is doing really good work, and I am delighted that we have been able to continue the level of funding for student support in this coming financial year.

Universal Free School Meals (Secondary Schools)

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it can provide an update on what progress has been made on its commitment to pilot access to universal free school meals in secondary schools. (S6O-02150)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

All primary school pupils in primaries 1 to 5, children in funded early learning and childcare, and eligible pupils in primary 6 through to secondary 6 can already benefit from free meals in Scotland, which is the most generous provision anywhere in the United Kingdom, saving parents on average £400 per eligible child per year.

We will need to go further. Our additional investment that was announced on 15 December will continue to fund the expansion of free school meals for all primary 6 and 7 pupils who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment. We remain committed to delivering a pilot of universal free school meals in secondary schools, and we continue to work closely with key delivery partners on our free school meals expansion programme.

I have asked for further advice from officials once that planning work is further progressed, and I will be happy to provide an update at that point to members.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

I welcome the cabinet secretary to her new role.

The Scottish Government’s commitment to expanding access to universal free school meals is welcomed by the whole Parliament. Will the cabinet secretary give an indication of how many secondary schools will be involved in the pilot schemes and when she expects they will start?

What progress has been made on the P6 and 7 roll-out, given that 90,000 children in Scotland have been in receipt of emergency food parcels in the past year?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank Monica Lennon for her interest in the issue. She will know that it is a subject that is very close to my heart, as it is to hers.

In relation to the specifics of the question on the free school meals pilot in secondary schools, as I mentioned in my initial answer the detail of that is still being considered by officials. I am more than happy to provide Monica Lennon with an update on that. Additionally, if the member has suggestions about how the pilot might be carried out, I would be more than happy to hear them.

On the question about the wider roll-out to primaries 6 and 7, I am more than happy to give Monica Lennon further updates on that. It is really important that we get the roll-out of the next phase right for Scotland’s children and young people, so we should all be working in a spirit of cross-party consensus, given its importance to our education system.

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

As the cabinet secretary noted, Scotland has the most generous provision of free school meals in the UK, and £400 per eligible child is a very notable amount. What difference do free school meals make to the education journey of our young people in Scotland?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As Karen Adam

suggests, and as I alluded in my response to Ms Lennon, the policy is vital to the life chances of our children and young people—especially given the on-going impacts of the cost of living crisis, with many families struggling with the cost of food. We know that school can play a key role in alleviating that burden, and there is evidence that suggests that provision of free school meals can help to close the poverty-related attainment gap, raise attainment and improve school attendance.

As I mentioned in my response to Ms Lennon, there is cross-party support for the policy, and it is important that we continue to work together on that expansion.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I welcome the ministers to their new positions.

We need to understand why the number of pupils who are taking school meals is at its lowest for 10 years and why, on census day last year, 60,000 fewer pupils than in 2016 were having a school meal.

I have had teachers and people who work in the school meals service tell me their concerns about how appetising the meals are and about the lack of investment in facilities. What will the cabinet secretary do to increase the take-up rate for school meals?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Stephen Kerr raises a valid point. I know from my experiences in the classroom that there can often be stigma associated with free school meals. It is important that local authorities and Government work closely on the matter, and I am happy to work with the member on it, additionally. We need to increase uptake, and we need to ensure that there is nutritional value in the meals that are provided.

Higher Education Sector (Support)

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what it is doing to support the higher education sector. (S6O-02151)

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Our 2023-24 budget allocated nearly £2 billion to Scotland’s universities and colleges through the Scottish Funding Council, demonstrating our commitment to supporting our learners and institutions.

I welcome the recent publication by the SFC of the indicative core funding allocations for 2023-24, which maintain funding levels in teaching and research despite the challenging fiscal environment. That will enable colleges and universities to move forward with their planning for the year ahead.

We have kept our investment in excellent university research at current levels, while increasing our investment in university innovation.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

The minister must be concerned to hear the reaction of Professor Dame Sally Mapstone to the figures that he has laid out, because it raises concerns that the Government’s approach to higher education represents “managed decline”. With a flat-cash budget for universities, which has been loosely termed “transformation funding”, and a failure to invest adequately in research excellence grants, under this Government “managed decline” is what we are seeing.

Can the minister define what the £20 million of transition funding will be spent on? What will he do differently from his predecessor to arrest that managed decline?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

As Mr Marra is well aware— [

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Marra—please.

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

As Mr Marra is well aware, we are in an extremely challenging financial environment. We are working very closely to deliver the funding that the universities request, against a very difficult financial backdrop. He knows that.

We continue to spend nearly £2 billion a year on Scotland’s universities and colleges through the SFC alone, despite the financial pressures that the Government faces. We remain committed to the long-term success of universities and colleges, as we have demonstrated with the increase in research and innovation funding.

I recognise that Mr Marra and I will disagree on this, but the flat-cash settlement in indicative allocations that he refers to was, against the economic backdrop, as fair as was achievable. Of course, it sets challenges for our colleges and universities. That is why I will, over the coming weeks and months, be engaging with the representative bodies and the individual institutions—I met Sally Mapstone last week—and listening to any ideas that they have for flexibilities or innovative approaches that can help them to meet better the financial and practical challenges that confront them.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I have a number of requests for supplementaries. I want to get through all of them, but they will have to be brief, as will the responses.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

Would the minister agree that our students and our universities and colleges have benefited from exchanges with Europe, both with our students going there and top students coming here? Is it not ironic that Labour supports barriers between us and Europe?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Since Brexit, European Union students have become ineligible for funding. As a result, there has been a reduction of 64 per cent in the number of students from Europe choosing to study at Scottish universities. That reduction has undoubtedly impacted on our universities.

The Scottish Government welcomes the contribution that European and other international students make to our higher education sector, as well as to our society, our culture and our economy. They add diversity. Any proposals from the United Kingdom Government to add more restrictive visa requirements for European and other international students would be deeply damaging to our world-class university sector.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

I, too, welcome the minister to his new position.

I met Edinburgh College representatives last week. They told me that they are facing extremely difficult budgetary decisions and that they will not receive any funding for pay rises above 2 per cent, and that every 1 per cent over that will cost them £500,000.

I know that the minister shares my concerns for Edinburgh College and other colleges that are facing similar situations. Given the critical role that colleges play in tackling the attainment gap and supporting our economy, can he provide detail about the steps that he is taking to ensure that colleges are fairly funded?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

I will resist the temptation to make a political point about the impacts on the budget of the Scottish Government that are consequences of economic incompetence at Westminster. I have way too much respect for Sue Webber to go there.

As I just highlighted to Michael Marra, over the next few weeks and months I will engage directly with the colleges and universities. The financial position is extremely serious; the Government is feeling the consequences of that, and so are they. I will listen to any innovative ideas that they have about what we can do differently to support them to cope with some of the financial and practical pressures that they are facing.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I hear grumbling from Scottish National Party members about “managed decline”. Those are the words of Sally Mapstone, and she knows what she is talking about, because she leads one of the best universities in Scotland.

The decline is never clearer than it is when we look at research performance. We used to get 15 per cent of UK Research Council funding—now, it is down to 12.5 per cent. What is the minister going to do to reverse that decline?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

What I am going to do is behave more constructively than Willie Rennie just did by engaging with the sector. I met Sally Mapstone last week and will be in listening mode as I go round the universities and colleges, genuinely prepared to listen to any ideas that they have to help to address the challenges that they face.

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

There have been cash cuts to the research funding for 2023-2024 of seven of Scotland’s universities, all of which deliver world-leading research. Does the minister find that to be consistent with the Scottish National Party Government’s stated priority to “boost research and innovation”, as is set out in the national strategy for economic transformation?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Be as brief as possible, minister.

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

I am not sighted on the specifics of individual universities’ allocations, so I say with respect that I will not go there. However, I will tell you what the financial position is consistent with. It is consistent with the challenges that we have been set by your Government in Westminster—[

Interruption

.]—I am sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer; I mean the Conservative Government in Westminster—because of the economic incompetence of Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng.

Mental Health and Wellbeing Support (Primary Schools)

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

5. To ask the Scottish Government whether it can provide an update on what progress it has made towards delivering the Bute house agreement commitment to ensure that every child has access to mental health and wellbeing support, including counselling services, in primary school. (S6O-02152)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

We continue to support local authorities with £16 million a year to ensure that every secondary school has access to counselling services, which are now in place across Scotland. Authorities provide six-monthly reports on the services. More than 14,500 pupils accessed the service between January and June 2022, and more than 6,000 of those reported improved outcomes. The majority of the remaining young people are still accessing the service and therefore outcomes are not yet captured.

It is also important to say that school counselling is just one of a range of services that schools have in place to support pupils’ wellbeing.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that response and welcome her to her new post. We look forward to working with her constructively.

It is critical that every child and young person has access to that support. As the cabinet secretary has already said, councils have been required to share six-monthly reports on access to counsellors in secondary schools and community-based services. Those reports show that the efforts to increase access to counsellors in high schools are really succeeding. However, we lack the equivalent data for primary schools. What consideration has the Government given to expanding the requirement for councils to produce those six-monthly reports to primary schools as well?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank Mr Ruskell for his supplementary question and look forward to working with him. We worked closely in my previous ministerial post and I hope that that can continue.

I very much agree that all children and young people should have access to mental health and wellbeing support in schools. We all know of the impacts of Covid on our school system—the on-going impacts continue to be played out in our classrooms across the country. We need to be mindful of that and provide that support.

I am advised that the six-monthly reports that the member alludes to on community mental health services and school counselling include data on primary school children—the returns from authorities in relation to school counselling services include a breakdown of children and young people accessing the service per year group. Between January and June 2021, 1,300 children in primary schools accessed the school counselling service. More than 1,800 did so between July and December 2021 and more than 3,000 did so between January and June last year. I hope that that gives the member some level of reassurance in relation to the six-monthly reporting.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Again, there are a number of supplementaries. We will try to get through all of them, but they will need to be brief, as will the responses.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

Although it is essential to ensure that good mental health services are available in our education system, I am not sure that the increasing need for those services is the only aspect of the crisis. Surely we need to divert resource and attention to preventing poor mental health. Does the cabinet secretary agree that mental health and physical health are related? If so, does she agree that the education system, from pre-school onwards, is the ideal battleground in which to introduce physical activity as a way of combating the rising need for mental health services?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I very much recognise Brian Whittle’s interest in the issue. Brian Whittle and I were elected at the same time, and I can recall a number of occasions when he has raised the issue in the chamber in the intervening years. I recognise the connection between physical activity and good mental health—very much so in my own life. We need to extend that understanding to young people as well.

The school curriculum in Scotland is built on the four capacities, and in that context there is a capacity for ensuring better mental health. Supporting that through physical activity is vital, so physical education teachers in our secondary schools are fundamental. In our primary sector, our teachers have a key role to play in that endeavour as well. We will continue to provide that additionality in relation to the support for counsellors in our schools.

I was in the Royal high school, not far from the Parliament, last week, where I previously taught, listening to some of the impact that the school counsellor has in that school community. However, the member is right in saying that it is not just about school counsellors in our schools but about that broader approach to support throughout the school community.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

Another commitment that was made in the Bute house agreement was to raise awareness and understanding of mental health issues in schools and colleges. However, the National Union of Students Scotland, Colleges Scotland and Universities Scotland have said that student counsellors across Scotland are facing imminent redundancy due to funding ambiguity beyond this academic year.

Will the cabinet secretary commit to providing absolute clarity to the higher education sector today on funding for student counselling services in order to prevent those redundancies and reassure students that they can access the mental health support that they need?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

We confirmed a further £2 million in this academic year—to March of this year—and the Scottish Funding Council has now published guidance on that. We remain very committed to funding the entirety of the current academic year to an amount broadly in line with what was provided in 2021-22, and we have confirmed that to the sector.

The member will understand that final allocations will be confirmed through the Scottish Funding Council shortly. However, I want to put on the record my support for that commitment. It is really important that we continue to support good mental health across our education system.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Recruitment of healthcare professionals in rural and island areas continues to be a challenge. What measures can be taken to clear waiting lists for mental health treatment and to ensure that counselling services are provided in rural and island primary schools?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am not sure whether the member is discussing the issue of child and adolescent mental health services—

CAMHS—waiting lists. If that is the point that the member is making, I am more than happy to give her an update. It is important to reflect that the number of children starting treatment from CAMHS in the most recent quarter is comfortably one of the highest figures on record; the past four quarters show the four highest figures on record for the numbers of children starting treatment from CAMHS, which is good.

We will need to do more. As I mentioned, I think, in my response to Mr Kerr, I am cognisant of the impact of the pandemic—on-going as it is—on the young people who went through it and were out of formal education for a number of years. We will need to do more, working in local communities to help the provision of support for good mental health.

The Promise

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

6. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its work to keep the Promise to those who are care experienced. (S6O-02153)

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

The Scottish Government is strongly committed to keeping the Promise, and I am delighted to have the opportunity to lead that work through this new ministerial post.

I am heartened by the cross-party commitment across the Parliament to introduce the change that is required to ensure that our children and young people feel loved, safe and respected.

Since coming into post, I have received correspondence from a range of partners, and I am excited to have the opportunity to see for myself, in the coming weeks and months, the great work that is under way across Scotland. Last March, the Scottish Government published its Promise implementation plan, “Keeping the promise to our children, young people and families”, and we continue to build change in our education, health and justice agendas.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

I welcome the minister to her new role. Will she outline the continued engagement that the Scottish Government is having with children and young people who are in the care system as well as those who are care experienced? What steps is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that young people have the support of scaffolding to lead independent lives as young adults?

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

The previous First Minister and Minister for Children and Young People met regularly with members of the care-experienced community, and I am delighted to have the opportunity to carry that engagement on.

The Scottish Government is committed to ensuring that, in developing the policy and legislative change that is required to keep the Promise, the voice of the care-experienced community continues to inform the actions that we take. That is essential. We continue to work with our partners, including The Promise Scotland, Who Cares? Scotland, the local champions network boards, and through the Promise design school, to ensure that their voice is heard.

We know that many young people with experience of care might not have access to the same family networks, support or opportunities as their non-care-experienced peers. Providing the right and timely support in the move to independent living is essential, and we are committed to supporting transition through inclusive and accessible support for education, employment, transport and housing. We have committed £10 million to the introduction of a care leaver payment in this parliamentary term to provide further support to the 50,000 young care-experienced people between the ages of 16 and 26.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

I welcome the cabinet secretary and ministers to their new and transferred posts.

With regard to the data that is required, the Data for Children Collaborative has highlighted a shortfall from the third sector and stakeholders by the use of questionnaires. What will the minister do to address the concern that obtaining quality assurance over information will require on-going resource and work?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please be as brief as possible, minister.

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

We understand that the recording of that data is absolutely essential, and that is something that I will be working on. As the member is aware, I am fairly new to this post, but that is something that I am happy to come back to him on.

School Buildings (Condition)

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to ensure that school buildings remain safe and in good condition. (S6O-02154)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

It is

the statutory duty of local authorities to manage and maintain their school estate and we expect them to provide a safe environment for all school users. There are a record number of schools in good or satisfactory condition, and the proportion of schools in those categories increased from 61 per cent in April 2007 to just over 90 per cent in April last year.

The Scottish Government, in partnership with local councils, is providing significant funding for schools through the £2 billion learning estate investment programme, which will provide benefits to tens of thousands of pupils across Scotland.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that answer. The danger of toxic asbestos is common knowledge. Despite that, however, over 1,700 schools across Scotland still contain this hazardous material. It is critical that the Scottish Government and councils act as quickly as possible to remove asbestos from the Scottish school estate to ensure that pupils, teachers and staff across Scotland are learning and working in a safe environment.

What progress has the Scottish Government made on removing asbestos from schools? What impact assessments have been undertaken to look at where there is currently asbestos in the school estate and where it should be removed? What timescale will the Government develop to make sure that that happens?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank the member for his question. He raises a really important point. It is, of course, the case that local authorities have a responsibility for our school buildings, but I recognise that the member’s colleague made a freedom of information request on the matter very recently and I have asked officials for additional advice in relation to action that the Government may be able to take on the issue.

It remains on-going. A number of the schools that we are talking about are in historically old buildings. I confess that the last building that I worked in, over in Fife, had asbestos in it. It is soon to be replaced with a brand new building, thanks to this Government. That is hugely important as we move forward in improving the school estate, but we need to recognise some of the challenge here.

The other point to mention is that health and safety legislation is not devolved to the Scottish Government. The Health and Safety Executive is a United Kingdom-wide body. I have therefore commissioned advice from officials on what more we might be able to do in this space in relation to school buildings.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We will have a brief supplementary question from Stephanie Callaghan.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

It is worth mentioning that the management of asbestos is the same right across the UK. It is vital to note that asbestos should remain in situ while it is in good condition as it is dangerous only when it is disturbed. Can the cabinet secretary expand on some of the detail of that?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please be brief, cabinet secretary.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As I reiterated in my response to Miles Briggs, it is the case that the Health and Safety Executive operates at a UK-wide level. I have commissioned advice from officials in relation to further action that the Scottish Government might be able to take in this space.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you. We have a bit of time over the course of the afternoon, so I call question 8.

Scottish Funding Council (Indicative Budget Allocations 2023-24)

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

8. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the announcement of the Scottish Funding Council’s indicative budget allocations for 2023-24. (S6O-02155)

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

The Scottish Government very much

welcomes the publication of the 2023-24 indicative core funding allocations by the Scottish Funding Council, which enables colleges and universities to move forward with their planning for the academic year.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the minister for that response. A full-blown mental health crisis is unfolding in our universities, as has been pointed out previously. Last year, almost every university reported a sharp increase in the number of mental health support requests, with the number of students coming forward almost tripling compared with the number 10 years ago. It is therefore deeply concerning that the Scottish Funding Council is to cut 80 counsellors, whose funding ended earlier this month.

Colleges and universities have made it clear that that counselling will not remain in place without that financial support.

As a member of the Education, Children and Young People Committee, the minister shared my concerns about the impact that those cuts will have on students who are in desperate need of support. What can he do in his new role—I welcome him to it—to ensure that that vital support for our young people in our universities continues?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

The member is right. I do have an interest in this matter, not just as a minister but prior to that. I offer her the assurance that no such decision has yet been taken, not least because I will have a meeting on this very subject in about an hour and a half’s time.

There are significant financial challenges, which I alluded to earlier, but I fully recognise the benefit that the counsellors have brought to the colleges and universities. I was at Queen Margaret University last week and I heard about that at first hand.

I can make no commitment at this stage, but we recognise the need to provide accessible mental health provision for our students, not only in the universities but in the colleges as well. A student mental health plan is also being developed. I offer the member the reassurance that no decision has been taken on that as yet.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We have time for a couple of supplementaries, but they will need to be brief, as will the responses.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

The latest higher education student statistics show that, since 2006-07, there has been an increase of 31.4 per cent in the number of Scotland-domiciled full-time first degree entrants to our universities. What link does the minister see between that increase and the decision to introduce free university education by scrapping the graduate endowment? Which party was it that did that?

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Bearing in mind the Presiding Officer’s instruction, I will say only that it is self-evident that there is such a link and, if memory serves me correctly, it was the Scottish National Party that took the decision in question.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

I welcome the minister to his role.

In last year’s letter to the Scottish Funding Council, the Government said that it expected institutions to create a fair and equal society through their work as anchor organisations. The cabinet secretary and the minister will be aware of the University and College Union’s action to boycott marking and assessment as a result of the on-going disputes over pay and conditions, with some universities threatening deductions of up to 100 per cent from the wages of those staff who participate.

Therefore, I ask the minister whether he considers those pay deductions to meet the Government’s expectations; to condemn that action as an attack on the right of workers to strike; to agree to write to institutions and remind them of their fair work obligations; and—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That is a multiple question, Ms Duncan-Glancy. Minister.

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

I will be brief, Deputy Presiding Officer. It is a matter of concern that the dispute has arisen. As recently as last week, I was at Queen Margaret University, where I met lecturers, spoke to the principal and made the point that the issue needed to be addressed.

Space Sector

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-08713, in the name of Richard Lochhead, on opportunities for the space sector in Scotland.

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I am delighted to host today’s debate on Scotland’s space sector, which is a Scottish success story and a sector that, in opening up new frontiers, is delivering benefits for humankind, our planet and our economy. I hope that today’s debate will be the first in a series of debates that shines a light on Scotland’s transformative and growing cutting-edge sectors of the future.

The industrial revolution is the name for a time of great change in industry, technology and science. We are all familiar with the industrial revolution. In the 1780s, which was the lift-off decade for the industrial revolution, Scotland played a leading role and paved the way for what came after and for the modern world.

I believe that this decade is the lift-off decade for the further revolutions that are changing our lives and shaping our futures, whether through rapid advances in technology, the net zero agenda, artificial intelligence or other developments. Once again, ingenuity, innovation and invention, and our talented people, are allowing our relatively small country to play a leading role. The space sector is an industry that exemplifies the pace of change and our country’s leadership.

When people think of space, they might think about NASA and Sputnik, the race to put man on the moon or the enormous rockets and shuttles that took astronauts into orbit, but that is no longer what space is about. Space has become a fundamental aspect of modern-day life. It provides us with services that help us to navigate, to stay connected, to use our credit cards and banking apps anywhere in the world, to monitor climate change and to predict the weather.

Commercial entities are driving growth, the innovation that we need and competition to satisfy an insatiable requirement for data. In 2018, there were an estimated 2,000 active satellites in orbit. Today, that number is about 5,000 and, by 2030, it is forecast to reach 27,000.

The global market for the space sector is projected to grow to £490 billion by 2030, and that is just the start. A wealth of future opportunities—from space-based energy to asteroid mining and in-orbit manufacturing, to name but a few visions for what might happen in space—could result in science fiction becoming scientific fact.

Asteroid mining might sound far fetched, but members might not be aware of asteroid 16 Psyche, a metallic body that exists within the main asteroid belt. One sixteenth of the diameter of the earth’s moon, it contains vast quantities of precious metals whose worth is estimated to be many times that of the global economy.

Although our Scottish space sector has grown rapidly in the past 10 years, it has had a strong academic base, predominantly focused on earth science in Edinburgh, for far longer. That strong base continues to this day. For example, Scottish skills and innovation played an important role in the development of the James Webb telescope. However, it is the miniaturisation and standardisation of spacecraft in the past decade that has allowed Scotland’s space sector to flourish.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

Does that also present a challenge? The skills that the minister mentions are very much based on academic research

but, as we scale up and grow the space industry, we will also need technical skills. Will a change in our approach to skills development be required to support that sustained growth?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Daniel Johnson outlines an important challenge. As the sector grows, so will the demand for people. In the past few days, the industry made the important point to me that the sector will require a variety of skilled workers, from welders to engineers and scientists. It is important that the skills system adapts to the needs of many of Scotland’s growing sectors. A review is under way and steps are being taken.

There has been enormous change. The main change is in the size of satellites, which have gone from being as big as double-decker buses to being as small as a shoe box. The cost has dropped from tens of millions of pounds to hundreds of thousands of pounds, and the time to design, build and deploy a satellite has reduced from between 10 and 20 years to six months.

As I found out during my visits yesterday, Glasgow is at the heart of that transformation. An industry that had two people in a room now has numerous companies, which employ hundreds of highly skilled satellite engineers and build more small satellites than any other place outside of California. There I was by the Clyde, in a place famous for building the world’s ocean-going vessels, holding in my hand the small space vessels that are being built there in the 21st century to support humankind and protect our planet. Those satellites now track global aviation and shipping, forecast the weather and help to prevent forest fires in the Amazon.

However, satellites are valuable only if they can provide the right data at the right time to support effective decision making. Scotland also has expertise in data gathering and analysis. Scotland is the data capital of Europe, with Edinburgh hosting Europe’s largest infomatics centre and more than 170 data science companies.

We also have a number of excellent downstream data companies that are monitoring the earth’s forests and crops, making peer-to-peer trading much fairer and easier and delivering precise positioning services on a global scale to an accuracy of less than 5cm. That will, in turn, aid autonomous vehicles, precision agriculture and the internet of things.

Those capabilities provide a wealth of opportunities, but what will set Scotland apart will be a full end-to-end value chain—a one-stop shop for small satellites.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

The minister is making an interesting speech. It is important to maintain Scottish ownership of that value chain. I was disappointed when AAC Clyde Space, one of the real stars of the Scottish sector, was bought by a Swedish company in 2019. Do we understand the reasons why that happened? It might have been due to a lack of access to capital or to scaling restraints in Scotland. How do we address those challenges in order to maintain control?