Scottish Parliament, 20 April 2023

304 contributions from 65 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good morning. Our first item of business is general question time. I make a plea to members that, in order to get in as many questions as possible, I would appreciate succinct questions, with answers to match.

International Financial Services District Glasgow

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it has taken to support the development and expansion of Glasgow’s international financial services district in the past year. (S6O-02124)

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Glasgow’s international financial services district is driven by a partnership between the public and private sectors. Since its launch, more than £1 billion of investment has been secured, of which more than 90 per cent is from the private sector, bringing more than 15,500 jobs to the area so far.

In December 2022, Scottish Enterprise completed the purchase of a key development site to facilitate continued investment on the Broomielaw. Through an agreed master plan and the continuation of work in partnership with the private sector, that will expand the district west of the current boundary and will unlock even more opportunities for the district.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

I thank the minister for that thorough answer. Barclays bank decided to invest in Glasgow in 2018, and JP Morgan agreed to expand and become tenants of the new office in Argyle Street in 2019, but there does not appear to have been much progress since then. In November last year, Avison Young reported that, of the 655,000 square feet of development under construction in Glasgow, only 55 per cent had been pre-let or pre-sold. There is a concern that Glasgow remains low in that regard compared with pre-Covid levels.

What is important is that prospective occupiers are looking for grade A office space, so will the minister outline how a pipeline of grade A office space is being ensured? What specific inward investment pitches have been made to investors over the past year? How many notes of interest have been submitted? If he cannot give me an answer today, I would appreciate a follow-up response, if possible.

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I am happy to follow up on the member’s questions in writing after question time as, quite rightly, she seeks a lot of detail.

Since the launch of the financial district, more than 15,000 jobs have moved into it through new investment, expansion or diversified development. The district is playing a big role as a catalyst for the regeneration of the Broomielaw and the west city centre area. This year alone, there have been many new investments, which are bringing more new jobs to the area from a number of companies. I think that I am right in saying that several dozen fintech companies are now based in the city.

Glasgow is forging an impressive reputation as an international financial centre. I am keen to support that, as are my colleagues in the Scottish Government, and I will be happy to write to Pauline McNeill about the action that has been taken.

Local Bus Networks

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

2. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on how it is supporting communities and local authorities to strengthen local bus networks across Scotland. (S6O-02125)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Local authorities have greater tools at their disposal, from the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, to revitalise bus networks. Since June 2022, local authorities have been able to run their own local services, and, from 1 April, they can now request more information from operators via a new information-sharing process if they propose to vary or cancel services. Further legislation on partnerships and franchising will be introduced later this year.

Separately, through the bus partnership fund, £26 million of bus priority funding has been awarded to 11 partnerships, covering 28 Scottish local authorities, to tackle congestion and improve journey reliability.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the minister for that answer about the package that is emerging. However, despite public subsidies, private bus operators are still slashing services in rural areas. Community groups such as the Glenfarg community transport group are stepping up to provide new services. That community group recently launched a new bus service on a recently axed route from Glenfarg to Kinross, which managed to carry about 200 passengers in its first week alone. Will the minister outline the Scottish Government’s plan to support communities to deliver the quality bus services that they deserve?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

It is always heartening when communities get actively involved in improving their local services. I welcome the launch of bus service 55 in Glenfarg.

We brought forward a toolkit of flexible bus options in the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 to enable local authorities such as Perth and Kinross Council to respond to transport challenges in their areas. Local authorities now have the power to run their own bus services. That sits alongside their existing ability to subsidise services. In 2021-22, local authorities spent £55 million on subsidising socially necessary services. Powers to develop bus service improvement partnerships and to establish local services franchising will follow.

As Mr Ruskell knows, because we have already had discussions about this, we are also introducing a community bus fund to support local transport authorities to explore the options in the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 and to improve public transport in their areas, as is happening in Glenfarg.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I have a number of requests from members to ask supplementary questions. I will be able to take only some of those, given the time constraints. I make a plea, again, for succinct questions and answers.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

If the minister was serious about getting people on to buses, he would take action on bus fares, as he is doing on train fares. Why does he not replicate what England has, which is a fare cap on local bus journeys?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We will continue to look at not only rail fares but bus fares as we move forward. However, I point out to Mr Simpson that we do things somewhat differently here. In this country, we have a concessionary travel scheme that covers over-60s and under-22s. We are investing some £359.3 million in those schemes, which benefit people throughout Scotland. More than 2.3 million people throughout Scotland have access to free bus travel. That is certainly not the case south of the border.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I welcome the concessionary bus fares. How much do those subsidies—indeed, I would call them investments in the services—cost?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

As I have just pointed out in response to Mr Simpson’s question, we are investing £359.3 million in concessionary travel and giving 2.3 million people access to free bus travel in Scotland. In March 2022, the Child Poverty Action Group reported that free bus travel for young people can save a total of £3,000 to the lifetime cost of a child in Scotland. That also tackles child poverty. With more than 3 million journeys every week, those schemes are helping people throughout our nation to cut costs for essential, everyday and leisure travel, and are making sustainable travel a more attractive option. All of that, of course, supports our net zero ambitions, too.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can squeeze in Monica Lennon’s supplementary question if I can get a succinct answer from the minister.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

Free bus travel is great but, in parts of Scotland, bus services have been taken away altogether, including in Hamilton, following the withdrawal of the X1 bus. Local people with free bus passes therefore have to use cars and taxis. That is bad for climate action and is exacerbating social and economic inequality.

Three weeks ago, I met 100 residents who want to see action from transport chiefs and joined-up support. They are not getting that from the Government or from others. Will the minister, whom I welcome to his new post, meet me and campaigners to see how we can find a way forward?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I am willing to meet almost anyone, as folk in the chamber are very well aware. However, in the first instance, those campaigners need to speak to the local authority, which is ultimately in charge of those services.

I say to Ms Lennon and other members that the Government will do what it can in terms of investing, such as in the concessionary travel scheme and in the bus partnership fund, to get this right but, ultimately, some things are down to local authorities and local decision making. I hope that local authorities—in this case, South Lanarkshire Council—will have listened to Ms Lennon’s question and will take action to support local bus services.

Sentencing Guideline (Young People)

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it has reviewed the guideline, “Sentencing young people”, issued by the Scottish Sentencing Council. (S6O-02126)

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Responsibility for the development of sentencing guidelines lies with the independent Scottish Sentencing Council. Prior to introduction, all sentencing guidelines are approved by the High Court. The Sentencing Council has a statutory duty to periodically review the sentencing guidelines that it produces. As with the work of the council more generally, the independent nature of that process is fundamental.

As I have already made clear, as part of my new responsibilities, I intend to meet the chair of the council to discuss its important work, including how the council plans to keep its published guidelines under review.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Community service for child rape is obscene, and similar sentences are being passed across Scotland because of the sentencing quango created by the Scottish National Party Government, including for a 22-year-old hit-and-run driver who killed a child, a 22-year-old who scarred his teenage girlfriend for life, a 20-year-old who almost killed a police officer, and a 19-year-old sex offender who preyed on 28 underage girls. Yet victims’ voices are—quite literally—not being heard.

When the new cabinet secretary meets the chair of the

Scottish Sentencing Council, will she ensure that the vacancy for a victims representative is filled immediately?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

I can reassure Mr Findlay that the recruitment of a victims

representative for the Sentencing Council is well under way. There was an earlier recruitment round, which was unsuccessful; I can assure him that the recruitment process is now at an advanced stage.

Mr Findlay will be well aware that, as justice secretary, it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment about individual offenders or indeed about individual sentences, bearing in mind that this Parliament—in an act that all parties supported—passed the judiciary and courts legislation which sets out that we all, as ministers and members of the Scottish Parliament, have to uphold the independence of the Scottish judiciary.

It may well be of some use to Mr Findlay if I inform him that, with respect to some of the most serious offences, such as rape, 98 per cent of convictions for rape across all age groups result in a custodial sentence and that, with reference to young people, since the implementation of the sentencing guidelines, nearly 1,000 under-25s were incarcerated in 2022.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can squeeze in two supplementaries if we have brief questions and succinct answers.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

The cabinet secretary has gone into some detail about the independence of the Sentencing Council, and I understand that it consulted a range of stakeholders, including victims’ groups, when formulating the guidance. What action is the Scottish Government is taking to improve victims’ experiences of the justice system—in particular, to ensure that their voices are heard?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Improving victims’ experiences in the justice system is at the very heart of our vision for justice and will be progressed through the forthcoming criminal justice reform bill. We are working closely and directly with victims through the victims advisory board to embed their lived experience into our actions.

The victims task force brings together victims, victims’ organisations and criminal justice agencies to work collaboratively to deliver improvements. We are also committed to establishing a victims commissioner as an independent voice for victims as well as other pioneering initiatives to ensure that the needs of victims are met throughout their justice journey.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

Can the cabinet secretary clarify what discussions the Scottish Government has had with the Scottish Sentencing Council about the rights of victims and the extent to which the trauma of young survivors is being reflected in sentencing guidelines, and also that victim impact statements are being taken into account by the courts, particularly in serious cases such as rape cases?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

The member is correct to reference the fact that in any sentencing decision or any set of independent guidelines, as well as having regard to rehabilitation, for example, the guidelines often make specific references to young offenders. The purpose of sentencing is about punishment, protection of the public and expressing disapproval of offending. The impact on victims is imperative in that, particularly given the young age of some victims. That is why as a Government we are committed to developments such as the bairns’ hoose, where we can ensure that young victims have access to justice, care and recovery.

United Kingdom Economic Performance (Impact in Scotland)

Gordon MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Pentlands)

4. To ask the Scottish Government, in the light of the recent analysis by the International Monetary Fund, which predicts that the United Kingdom economy’s performance in 2023 will be the worst among the G20 economies, what assessment it has made of the potential impact of this in Scotland. (S6O-02127)

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

The IMF’s forecast for the UK economy to be the worst performing in the G20 is a shocking indictment of the UK Government’s mismanagement of the economy, which undeniably has an impact on the Scottish economy. Global economic conditions are challenging, and the Scottish Government is doing everything possible within its limited powers to support households and businesses through the current cost crisis and to grow and transform the economy in a way that delivers fairer, greener prosperity. However, the UK Government’s mismanagement of the economy, alongside the economic damage of Brexit, risks harming our international competitiveness and holding back our ambitious programme of work.

Gordon MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Pentlands)

The IMF’s analysis serves to underline the on-going detrimental impact that Westminster control continues to have on Scotland’s economy, and the people of Scotland are paying the price. Experts are now predicting that the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union is costing millions of workers £1,300 a year in lost income. Does the cabinet secretary share my concern that the Tories and Labour at Westminster seem determined to press ahead with imposing their disastrous Brexit on Scotland, no matter the economic consequences? Does he agree that the best way to ensure that our economy and communities can flourish is by rejoining the EU as an independent country?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Briefly, cabinet secretary.

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Absolutely. [

Interruption

.] Independence and rejoining the EU would give us the powers that we need to take advantage of the rich economic opportunities that we have, whereas we are currently being held back by UK inaction. The EU and US have invested in their economies, putting them in a competitive position to take advantage of the green industrial future. We need the powers that independence would give us to make sure that we can take advantage of our rich opportunities in Scotland.

Apprenticeship Places

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

5. To ask the Scottish Government how many apprenticeship places it will commit to funding this financial year. (S6O-02128)

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Modern apprenticeships are a vital resource for employers to invest in their workforce and for people to develop their skills. Investing in skills across people’s lifetimes is critical to our future productivity and success. My priority and that of the Government is for high quality apprenticeships that provide sustainable jobs and careers, supporting our transition to net zero. Skills Development Scotland has already issued contracts for the 39,000 modern apprentices who are currently in training. We are working closely and intensely with Skills Development Scotland to respond effectively to the expectations of learners and employers, and I expect it to finalise contracts for new modern apprenticeship starts imminently.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Here is what the Scottish Training Federation has said in the past hour:

“Three thousand apprentices due to start a Modern Apprenticeship this month have been left in limbo due to the current freeze on funding for new apprenticeship places. And around 1,000 employers who had planned to hire these apprentices have had to put their recruitment plans on hold.”

That is after it surveyed 1,000 employers who were planning to take on apprentices.

I know that the Scottish National Party is consumed by its internal wars, but why should thousands of young people be paying a price for the party’s incompetence and distraction? For months, the SNP has been denying that there is a freeze on apprenticeships. There is a freeze—there was a freeze last summer and there is one now.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Kerr, could we have the question, please?

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I welcome the minister to his new post. [

Interruption

.] I know how passionate he is about apprenticeships. Will he turn the page on the mess that his predecessor left him and fix it today?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Briefly please, minister.

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

Due to the very significant budget challenges that we face—which have much to do with the UK Government’s mismanagement of the economy—and the change of ministers, it was entirely reasonable to temporarily pause the issuing of contracts for new starts while we looked at the bigger picture. However, I am pleased to tell the chamber that we are about to green light that process. Despite the huge budgetary challenges that we face, I anticipate that the number involved will be in line with the number in 2022-23.

Scottish National Party Finances

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. The rules of the Parliament prevent me from asking crucial questions about the scandal over the Scottish National Party’s finances, so I cannot dwell on that, but I want to use my opening question to give the First Minister an opportunity to be transparent.

Last night, the First Minister became the SNP’s treasurer, so, although this is still a party matter, it is also now a Government matter if the First Minister is compromised, if his hands are tied, if the party of government is about to go bankrupt or if he himself becomes involved in the police investigation. Yesterday, the Deputy First Minister said:

“Going forward, the governance of the party needs to be ... about transparency, openness and people should be able to be able to question ... about the accounts.”

We agree, and we believe that there are legitimate questions that the Scottish public deserve answers to. In the interest of transparency, will Humza Yousaf agree to make a statement to Parliament on the financial scandal that is engulfing the party of government in Scotland?

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Mr Ross, according to the Parliament’s standing orders, First Minister’s question time gives the opportunity to put questions to the First Minister that fall within the responsibilities of the First Minister as First Minister and, of course, the responsibilities of his Government. I am not entirely clear that that question met the requirements of the standing orders. I am looking at the First Minister to see whether he wishes to add anything to what I have said.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I am happy to answer the question. I know that there are, of course, some serious issues for the party that I lead—the SNP—to address; I am not going to shy away from that. That is why in my very first act as SNP leader, attending my very first national executive committee, I am pleased that we got agreement from that committee—the body that oversees the party, which is elected by our members—to our review of transparency and governance. There was agreement not only to a transparency and governance review but to one that has external input, particularly on issues of finance oversight.

That is an important role for me, as leader of the SNP, but let me also say that what I am doing—and what the Government that I lead is doing collectively—is focusing relentlessly on the day job. That is why, in the first few weeks of being First Minister, I not only doubled but tripled the fuel insecurity fund. I know that Douglas Ross will not want to talk about that, because it lays bare the harm that the Tory cost of living crisis is doing to households up and down the country. [

Interruption.

]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I suspend proceedings. First Minister, please resume your seat.

12:03 Meeting suspended.

12:04 On resuming—

Please continue, First Minister.

The First Minister

Douglas Ross will no doubt be pleased that it was me that got interrupted for once.

That is why, in my first few weeks as First Minister, I announced £15 million for school-age childcare that is targeted towards the lowest-income households, an additional £25 million to support the just transition, additional funding to support general practices in our areas of highest deprivation and £25 million to be able to buy back or long lease empty properties for the social rented sector. Those are priorities for me, and they are the priorities of the Scottish people. Although I take my responsibility as leader of the SNP extremely seriously, I and the Government that I lead will focus relentlessly on the priorities of the Scottish people.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The first words from the First Minister when he stood up were that he was happy to answer the question, but he then basically refused to do so. I simply asked for a statement and for transparency, which I think are needed from the First Minister, because the secrecy must end.

I will move on to one of the matters of substance that the First Minister should be focusing his attention on, instead of on the huge distractions within his party. Last year, an SNP Government agency introduced guidelines that encourage more lenient sentences for under-25s, even for some of the worst crimes. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs was asked about that in the session before First Minister’s question time. Does the First Minister fully support the policy that was brought forward for consultation when he was justice secretary?

The First Minister

That is a very important issue. Although I will not comment on individual sentencing decisions, as it would not be right for me to do so as First Minister, let me clarify some important issues around the sentencing guidelines. I heard Angela Constance make these points in response to the question earlier.

Sentencing guidelines are, rightly, entirely the responsibility of the independent Scottish Sentencing Council. Decisions about whether to approve those guidelines are for the High Court. The new Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs has written to the chair of the Sentencing Council to discuss its important work. That letter notes that she will discuss how the council plans to keep those published guidelines under review.

It is also important to note not only that decisions on sentencing are rightly for the independent judiciary but that they are evidence based. Anybody who has read those sentencing guidelines—I assume that Douglas Ross has done so—will have seen a comprehensive guideline that is evidence based in relation to the sentencing of young people.

Notwithstanding all the good that is in there, the last point that I will make on that sentencing guideline is that it is very clear that there is no bar on imposing a custodial sentence on a young person where the judiciary considers that to be appropriate. However, that must be a decision neither for the First Minister or Government ministers nor for Opposition colleagues; it is a decision that is, rightly, for the independent judiciary.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

A few weeks ago, my party and almost everyone in Scotland were outraged at the case of a 13-year-old girl who was raped at a park in Dalkeith. Her attacker, Sean Hogg, was found guilty of rape, but he did not go to prison. All that he had to do was carry out 270 hours of unpaid work. The judge said that, if Hogg had committed that crime when he was over 25, he would now be behind bars. That confirms that the problem is the sentencing guidelines that were introduced. It is very clear that the SNP’s justice system is broken. Will the First Minister fix it?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Before I ask the First Minister to respond, I remind everybody in the chamber that this is a live case and that any reference thereto should therefore be made with extreme caution.

The First Minister

With that caveat in place, let me also say in reaction to that case that I can understand why people have concerns. However, I must go back to the central point that sentencing decisions are, rightly, for the independent courts and judiciary. The Lord President reminded me of that when he made some remarks on the public record when I attended the Court of Session to give my oath as the First Minister of Scotland. I committed to upholding the independence of the judiciary, which is a responsibility that I take with the utmost seriousness.

I read the very distressing account of the victim, who was 13 years old at the time. I also heard from her family in the public statements that have been made. Everybody would sympathise with the strong feelings of the victim. Talking generally and not about that specific case, I think that it is important to say that 98 per cent of all those who were convicted of rape between 2018 and 2021 received a custodial sentence.

It is important that we continue to give the judiciary the independence that it has, and that we have that separation between Government and judiciary. However, in the letter that Angela Constance sent to the Scottish Sentencing Council and the Lord Justice Clerk, she said that the Government would like to discuss the issues around how the sentencing guidelines are kept under review. I take Douglas Ross’s point that there is clearly public interest in the sentencing guidelines.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The First Minister mentioned that he had seen the comments from the victim and her family—they are all in the public domain and it is legitimate to raise them in the chamber.

The grandfather of the victim said:

“With this new ruling they’ve got, any person under 25 can go out and do any crime they want, however horrendous it may be, and there’s a good chance that they will get a community payback.”

The survivor of the rape said:

“When I was told he had been found guilty I felt a wave of emotions. I didn’t know how to react. I cried, I think I cried with relief ... Now it makes me think, why did I even bother reporting the rape in the first place.”

She continued:

“Whoever is in charge of the justice system needs to sort this out: you say you care about victims like me, but how can a serial rapist receive 270 hours community payback?”

Her final line was,

“Why is it ok to rape anyone and not go to jail?”

The First Minister seems to be hailing the statistic that 98 per cent of people who are convicted of rape go to prison. One hundred per cent of rapists who are convicted of that crime must go to prison. I will repeat the words of the victim as my question to the First Minister:

“Why is it ok to rape anyone and not go to jail?”

The First Minister

Speaking in the general and not about a specific case, I agree with the sentiment that, if somebody commits rape, they should go to jail. I believe that, but I also believe very firmly that it is up to the independent judiciary, including judges in the High Court, to make a decision about the appropriate punishment for an individual for the crime that they have committed.

I refer back to the sentencing guidelines, which are the central issue that Douglas Ross raises. The guidelines make it clear that, as well as looking at issues around rehabilitation and consideration of sentencing for young people under 25, other factors, including

“protection of the public; punishment ... and expressing”

strong

“disapproval of offending behaviour”,

should also be taken into account.

Therefore, the courts can still, even with the guidelines that are in place, impose a custodial sentence on a young person if they consider that to be appropriate in the light of all the facts.

I take what has been said by the victim and her grandfather very seriously. That is why we are looking to improve the justice system, particularly when it comes to women, who are often the victims of sexual offences and rape. We will shortly introduce a criminal justice reform bill, which will seek to make those changes to the court system and to the justice system in order to improve the experience and outcomes of justice for victims of sexual offences and rape. I hope that it will get support from across the chamber.

Ferry Services

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. On Tuesday, Humza Yousaf tried to convince the country that he represented a fresh start. Sixteen years of command and control, financial mismanagement and a complete lack of transparency—that is not only how the Scottish National Party governs its party; it is how it governs the country.

Just one example is the on-going ferry crisis—£200 million over budget, with no ferries in sight. Last week, I was in the Western Isles, and I heard directly from people about the consequences of that failure—cancelled ferries, meaning missed cancer appointments, lack of supplies coming in, produce not getting out and businesses going to the wall.

In 2017, the then SNP Minister for Transport and the Islands said that resolving the Western Isles ferry crisis was a priority. Six years on, people are still waiting, and it has got worse. Who was that incompetent transport minister and where are they now?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I recognise the challenges that those who rely on our ferry services—our island communities—have suffered in the past few weeks, particularly over the Easter tourism season.

However, let me speak clearly to those island communities. We not only understand their frustrations but are taking action to ensure that we bolster the ferry network services. That is why this Government has bought and deployed an additional vessel in the MV Loch Frisa. That is why we chartered the MV Arrow to provide additional resilience and capacity. That is why we commissioned two new vessels for Islay. That is why we commissioned two new vessels for the Little Minch routes. That is why we progressed key investments in ports and harbours. That is why we confirmed additional revenue funding for the operation of local authority ferry services. That is also why we are looking forward to the MV Alfred and why we provided additional funding to Caledonian MacBrayne for it, to provide additional resilience, not just for the next few weeks but for the next nine months.

It is, of course, a very serious matter that Anas Sarwar has raised, but we are a Government that is taking action to ensure that we have resilience on our ferries network.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

That was a great example of what has become typical of this leadership in the past three weeks: comical Ali, saying everything is fine, while the house burns down behind us.

Island communities will not believe those excuses from the First Minister. He and this Government are totally out of touch. Six years ago, Humza Yousaf, as Minister for Transport and the Islands, made a promise to fix this, but the Scottish National Party Government has failed to get a grip, and its financial mismanagement has cost us hundreds of millions of pounds.

It has cost people in the islands dearly, too. The impact on the local economy has been devastating. One report has estimated that the loss of the Lochboisdale to Mallaig ferry alone cost nearly £50,000 a day. That is almost double the average annual salary on the islands. As one business put it,

“No ferry means no income, no jobs, no people”.

Businesses in Uist have asked the Scottish Government to compensate them for their losses. Last year, Transport Scotland took millions of pounds in fines from CalMac because of the lack of services. Will the First Minister commit to compensating islanders, and at the very least pass on the fines that the Government has collected from CalMac to the people who have been affected by the crisis?

The First Minister

I will look at any proposals that are suggested by anybody across the chamber, including the one that Anas Sarwar just mentioned.

I completely accept, and am unequivocal in saying, that the Government understands and regrets any delays and disruption that have impacted our island communities. What does not help island communities are easy soundbites from Anas Sarwar—[

Interruption

.]—that are not an attempt to provide any solutions but silly personal attacks around comical Ali. That is not going to help those in our island communities one single bit.

What will help our island communities is delivering—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

—six new major vessels to serve Scotland’s ferry network by 2026. That is a priority for this Government.

Let us look at the facts. Of course there has been disruption—I do not deny that at all—but in 2022, there were 170,000 scheduled sailings across the Clyde and Hebrides ferry services network, and around 6.6 per cent of them were cancelled. Over half of those cancellations were due to weather-related issues. Around 1.1 per cent of the total scheduled sailings were cancelled due to technical issues. The vast majority of scheduled sailings take place when they are meant to. We should and will bolster the ferry service network’s resilience, and I look forward to the charter of the MV Alfred in the coming days.

I will say to Anas Sarwar that I will end where I started. Any sensible suggestions from the Opposition, and from across the chamber, will be listened to by the Government.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The harsh reality is that island communities just do not believe him. Island communities feel completely let down, and they have heard these excuses for years. They cannot wait for more years of Government failure. This is impacting the lives of islanders right now. Businesses are failing right now. Millions of pounds are being lost right now. Exports are stuck on the islands right now. People need support right now, and that is why they need that compensation scheme.

This is no fresh start. Humza Yousaf has served in Government for over a decade. He was a failed transport minister, with hundreds of millions of pounds wasted on ferries that never sailed. He was a failed justice secretary, with millions of pounds wasted on botched prosecutions and court delays. He was a failed health secretary, with over £300 million wasted on delayed discharges, while people waited to get life-saving treatment. Now, just three weeks in, he is a failed First Minister, bogged down in scandal, unable to lead and completely out of touch with the priorities of the people of Scotland.

Therefore, I ask the acting SNP treasurer: why should Scots keep paying the price for SNP failure?

The First Minister

I say once again to Anas Sarwar that we are acting now. That is why the MV Alfred—an additional vessel for which we have helped to fund CalMac—is coming on board in the next few days. That is tangible action that will make a difference to our ferry networks, right here and right now. He says that the people of Scotland do not trust us and that he was in the Western Isles. I remind him that the Western Isles has an SNP MP and an SNP MSP, so the people of the Western Isles absolutely do trust us. [

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members! We need to hear the First Minister respond.

The First Minister

He says that we have not been getting on with the job. Well, I am afraid that people in Scotland disagree with him. I stood here on Tuesday and announced and articulated our policy prospectus, and I am delighted that it got support from the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and that some of the policies that I announced got support from Dr Liz Cameron, the chief executive of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce. There was support from Transform Scotland in relation to the pilot for peak rail fares being abolished, and support from the Scotch Whisky Association, the Chartered Institute of Housing Scotland, the Scottish Empty Homes Partnership, Crisis Scotland, Reform Scotland, the Poverty Alliance, Stop Climate Chaos Scotland and Parkinson’s UK.

This is a time for new leadership, of course, which I am delighted to bring to this Government, and time for a fresh start. The people of Scotland recognise that; maybe it is time for Scottish Labour to recognise it, too.

Rosebank Oil and Gas Field

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister whether he will provide an update on what recent engagement the Scottish Government has had with the United Kingdom Government regarding the proposed development of the Rosebank oil and gas field, in light of the Scottish Government’s draft energy strategy and just transition plan. (S6F-02014)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Licensing of exploration and production of the offshore oil and gas sector remains reserved, regrettably, to the UK Government. The Scottish Government is clear that unlimited extraction of fossil fuels is not consistent with our climate obligations. It is not the solution to the energy price crisis, to meeting our energy security needs or, indeed, to ensuring a just transition for our oil and gas workers, as North Sea production inevitably declines.

That is why we need a new plan for Scotland’s energy system. The draft energy strategy and just transition plan seeks to do that. The Scottish Government is absolutely committed to a just transition and to ensuring that we take workers with us on the important journey to net zero. We will not do to the north-east what Thatcher did to mining and steel-working communities right across Scotland.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I thank the First Minister for that response. While recognising that licensing is reserved, the draft energy strategy and just transition plan sets out the position that

“in order to support the fastest possible and most effective just transition, there should be a presumption against new exploration for oil and gas.”

Since the draft plan was published, the United Nations secretary general has said:

“our world needs climate action on all fronts—everything, everywhere, all at once. ... Ceasing all licensing or funding of new oil and gas ... Stopping any expansion of existing oil and gas reserves”

and

“Shifting subsidies from fossil fuels to a just energy transition.”

Whether it is Rosebank today or other proposals to drill tomorrow, does the First Minister agree that a just transition on a liveable planet depends on our firm commitment to a fossil fuel free future?

The First Minister

I agree that we should all want a fossil fuel free future and, on that, I agree that delivering on our climate obligations is an absolutely priority. As one of the first things that I did—I think that it was my second official visit as First Minister—I went to the north-east of Scotland and spoke to people who are absolutely committed to that just transition, particularly in the north-east. I want the north-east of Scotland to be the net zero capital of not just Europe but the world, and I believe that it has the potential to do so.

Maggie Chapman is absolutely right that, first and foremost, we have to make sure that any decisions that are taken by the UK Government must be taken in relation to our climate obligations. We want the UK Government to strengthen its climate compatibility checkpoint. We have asked for tougher and more robust climate tests.

Secondly, we should ensure that the decisions align with our energy security needs.

My third point is really central, and I believe that Maggie Chapman will agree with me. We must take the workers of the north-east with us. As I have already said, we will never do to the north-east what Margaret Thatcher did to our mining and steel communities. We will not decimate sectors and we will not leave a single worker on the scrapheap. That is why I will continue to invest in and accelerate the just transition as quickly as possible.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

New exploration and production in the North Sea would protect more than 70,000 Scottish jobs. It would help our energy security and it would have a positive impact on emissions, rather than offshoring our responsibilities. Will the First Minister therefore re-examine the plans in his threadbare energy strategy to close the North Sea, or will he continue to be dictated to by a cabal of Green MSPs?

The First Minister

That is, of course, not what is in the draft strategy. If we truly unleash and unlock the green economy, we would be talking about tens of thousands of jobs over the next couple of decades. We want to take the workers of the north-east in particular with us on that journey.

What a cheek Liam Kerr has to stand there and talk about Scottish energy jobs when the party that he belongs to and the UK Government have continued to block, delay and dither when it comes to the Scottish Cluster and the Acorn project, which it has refused to give permission on and has relegated to track 2. I say once again that the Tories can never be trusted when it comes to protecting Scottish jobs.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Scotland and the UK will continue to need and rely on gas for decades to come. In many cases, gas is imported from the US, but its gas is produced with more than four times the carbon emissions of Rosebank. Does the First Minister therefore agree with me that sacrificing the development of our own gas resource would not only decimate tens of thousands of highly-skilled well-paid jobs in a form of economic masochism that is advocated by the wine-bar revolutionaries in the Green Party but make climate change worse, not better?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Before the First Minister responds, I remind members of the requirement to treat each other with courtesy and respect.

The First Minister

Deputy Presiding Officer, I suspect that that is not the first time you have had to tell your brother off.

Let me make a point of agreement with Fergus Ewing and say that nobody I have heard in the Scottish Government or the Green Party has said that extraction must stop tomorrow. We understand that a just transition means that we have to take the workers of the north-east with us. The point is that the transition has to be just, which is why we believe that we must accelerate the just transition with further investment in non-fossil fuel alternatives.

Independent research that was based on industry projections found that production in the North Sea will be around one third of 2019 levels by 2035. We therefore know that it is a declining basin, which is why we have to make sure that we accelerate the just transition. Meanwhile, as at 2019, only 16 per cent of the oil and gas that comes into Scotland, including imports from Norway and beyond, is consumed in Scotland. Reducing our energy consumption while ramping up our energy generation capabilities through renewables and hydrogen will mean that a net zero Scotland will not only be less reliant on imported oil and gas but will, I hope, be a net exporter of cleaner and greener energy to the rest of the UK and beyond.

Business Community (Engagement)

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

4. To ask the First Minister, in light of his recent visit to the Port of Aberdeen, what engagement he has had with the business community since taking office. (S6F-02027)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Resetting the relationship with business is a core priority for the Government. On Tuesday, I set out plans to agree a new deal for businesses and the introduction of a new group, to be co-chaired by the Cabinet Secretary for Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy, that will explore how Government can better support our businesses and communities using all the policy levers that we have at our hands.

During my visit to the Port of Aberdeen, I announced, as I have already said, £25 million to be invested in the just transition away from oil and gas. That was the first of many meetings that I have planned as part of an extensive programme of engagement with business and industry leaders across all of Scotland’s sectors to identify priority areas of challenge and opportunity. Later today, I will meet the main business organisations to personally reiterate my commitment to that new working relationship and to talk about how we can deliver on our mission to have a fairer, greener and growing wellbeing economy for all of Scotland’s people.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

The Scottish Government’s commitment to agree a new deal for business has received an extremely positive response from the business community, and we all agree that it is absolutely vital that we work together constructively to develop our wellbeing economy.

Given the substantial pressures that many businesses are facing from rising costs and a disastrous Brexit, it is clear that urgent and sustained action is needed to maximise the support that is available to them. Can the First Minister say any more about the steps that the Scottish Government is taking to ensure that it can best support our businesses using the full amount of policy levers that it has at its disposal? Does he agree that we would, if full powers over our economy rested with this Parliament, be much better placed to support our businesses to thrive?

The First Minister

Of course we would. I can hear groans and jeers from the Scottish Conservatives, so let us hear what the chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility said about the impact of Brexit on the United Kingdom economy. He said

that it was of the same “magnitude” as the impact of the Covid pandemic and the energy price crisis. In addition, the Centre for European Reform has found that Brexit has cost the UK a staggering £33 billion in lost trade. This is not just the opinion of the Scottish National Party-led Scottish Government; it is the opinion of experts in the economy who are saying that Brexit has seriously impacted on trade in the UK and in Scotland.

Businesses are the backbone of the economy—I am the proud son of a small business owner. That is why the new deal for business, which I articulated in our policy prospectus on Tuesday, is so important. It is crucial. Through the Scottish budget, we responded to business’s biggest ask on non-domestic rates by freezing the poundage for 2023-24, which it is estimated will save ratepayers £308 million.

We will continue to use the powers of devolution that we have to the absolute maximum effect in order to grow and transform our wellbeing economy. However, I agree with Audrey Nicoll that we need significantly increased policy levers to ensure that Scotland will be wealthier, fairer and greener, and that the wellbeing of our people is enhanced. Until we have that, I am afraid that the Scottish Conservatives will continue to have the levers that, as we can see, they use to harm our people and our business and trade, here in Scotland.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Connectivity between the Port of Aberdeen and the freeport in Cromarty will be vital for the north-east economy, so will the First Minister grow a backbone, stand up to the Greens and fully dual the A96, as promised?

The First Minister

That question goes to the heart of the Conservatives’ hypocrisy. They demand that we go further in tackling the climate emergency, yet anything that we do—including, for example, a review of sections of the A96 for climate compatibility—they oppose. It does not matter what the Scottish Government tries to do to ensure that we tackle the climate emergency in order to leave a cleaner and more sustainable planet for future generations—the Conservatives will always oppose it.

We are absolutely committed to dualling the A9 as well as the A96 from Inverness to Nairn, including the Nairn bypass. I have already said to my good friend Fergus Ewing that we will bring forward a timetable on that as soon as possible.

Highly Protected Marine Areas

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

5. To ask the First Minister whether he will provide an update on the Scottish Government’s plans for highly protected marine areas, following the end of its public consultation. (S6F-02002)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Our initial consultation on highly protected marine areas closed on Monday, and it is only right that we take some time to carefully consider all the responses—there has been a substantial number of responses—before we set out our next steps, especially given the strength of views that have been expressed on the issue.

Our seas must remain a source of prosperity for the nation, especially in remote coastal and island communities. It is vital that those communities help to shape the creation of HPMAs, which is why we chose to consult very early on in the process. My officials have held more than 40 meetings relating to the process, and my colleague Màiri McAllan will continue to engage directly with coastal and island communities before we decide on our next steps together.

I make it clear that no sites have been selected. That will not begin until we have considered the feedback from the consultation and the engagement process is complete. We are determined to ensure that as many voices as possible are heard in the process.

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Earlier this week, the First Minister said that HPMAs should not be imposed on communities that do not want them. Not one community in the Highlands and Islands wants the HPMAs.

We all acknowledge the need to protect our marine environment, but the HPMA proposals will devastate coastal communities—the fishing sector, in particular—and threaten their very way of life. It is no wonder that the policy has been compared with the clearances—people cleared off the land and cleared off the sea.

Given the anger that the policy has caused and the widespread opposition to the plans, including from many in the First Minister’s own party, and given that he wants to be First Minister for the whole country, will he now scrap the plans once and for all and start again?

The First Minister

The point is that there are no plans yet. There is a consultation, but we do not yet have set sites or set criteria. We are at a very early stage—an inception stage—in which we want to work with our coastal, island and fishing communities. I believe that, ultimately, there is agreement on the outcome. The outcome that we all want is a sustainable marine environment. We want our fishing industry and our seas to be sustainable for the future. We want the industry to continue. However, that can happen only if the marine environment is sustainable. I believe that there is agreement on that.

Of course, our fishing, island and coastal communities have often been at the forefront of the effort on sustainability, so we want to work with them and engage with them.

All that said, I reiterate what I said on Tuesday: this Government will not steamroll through or impose on any community a policy that it is vehemently opposed to. My colleague Màiri McAllan will engage with those island and coastal communities, and we will analyse their responses very carefully. I say to all those who have expressed their opposition to highly protected marine areas that we are willing to engage and to listen. Let us hope that we get to the agreed outcomes together.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

Does the First Minister agree that the no-take zone in Lamlash bay has had no adverse impact whatsoever and, indeed, has shown that conservation can help to revitalise our fishing sector, and that identifying potential highly protected marine area sites would allow more effective direct engagement to take place with concerned fishers and communities?

The First Minister

That is absolutely right. Far from having any adverse impact, the Lamlash bay no-take zone has shown us the benefit for the marine environment and the people who rely on it. The example of Lamlash bay is a very good one—it was the community that wanted the no-take zone to be established. That goes to the central point, which is that we will work with communities to get to the outcome that I hope that we all agree on, which is having a sustainable marine environment.

Based on studies that were co-ordinated by the community group at Lamlash bay, it has been noted that, since protection was established, commercially important species such as the king scallop and the European lobster have increased in size, age and density. The 2008 designation of the Lamlash bay no-take zone off the coast of Arran was a result of campaigning by the local community, and I think that that is a good model for us as we take forward our work on highly protected marine areas.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Earlier this week, Orkney Islands Council joined its counterparts in Shetland and the Western Isles in voicing the strongest possible opposition to the Government’s plans for highly protected marine areas, given their potential impact on island communities.

On the same day, the First Minister announced welcome, if long-overdue, U-turns on his deposit return scheme and alcohol advertising sanctions. I therefore urge him not to spend months defending the indefensible and to confirm, in the light of the significant and growing opposition in coastal and island communities, that his Government will now rethink its plans to arbitrarily designate 10 per cent of Scottish waters as HPMAs by 2026.

The First Minister

Liam McArthur will be well aware that, when I was Minister for Transport and the Islands, I brought forward island proofing, which is something I believe into my very core. Therefore, we will not impose upon any community, island or otherwise, a policy that it vehemently opposes.

We will analyse the consultation responses and agree on the outcomes. I think that there is general broad agreement on the outcomes. We want to have a sustainable marine environment and a fishing sector that is sustainable in the long term and protecting our biodiversity helps us with that outcome.

I will continue engaging personally, as will Màiri McAllan, who will, no doubt, travel across the country, including to Orkney and Shetland, to meet with those who have expressed concerns. I hope that, together, we can get to a place where we all agree on the outcome and can move forward to protect our marine environment and make it more sustainable for the future.

Ferry Services (Highlands and Islands)

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

6. To ask the First Minister what immediate action the Scottish Government will take to improve the situation regarding ferry services across the Highlands and Islands, in light of recent reports of unprecedented disruption. (S6F-02011)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

As I already said in my response to Anas Sarwar’s question, I recognise the significant impact that delays and disruption have, regrettably, had on our island communities during the annual overhaul programme. We know that not only individuals but businesses in our island communities rely on those lifeline services.

I am committed to investing in our ferry services and we will be delivering six new major vessels to serve Scotland’s ferry network by 2026: that is a priority for me and for the Government that I lead. We have already procured the MV Loch Frisa, we previously chartered the MV Arrow and we look forward to shortly welcoming the MV Alfred into service to provide additional resilience in the network. In the meantime, we will continue pressing Caledonian MacBrayne to consider all options to minimise the impact on communities and businesses.

I know that the Minister for Transport is engaging very closely on that issue. He has held resilience calls with CalMac and Transport Scotland in the light of the latest disruptions and has proactively engaged directly with local stakeholders, with our operators and with Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd to improve reliability and resilience right across the network.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

The transport minister refused to take responsibility for the ferry crisis and also refused compensation payments for local businesses that are going to the wall because of ferry failures. Now that constituents on Uist will have no mainland ferry services from Sunday, which is in three days’ time, is the First Minister going to do the same, or is he going to tell us what emergency provision he will put in place? Has he asked the Ministry of Defence for help and what compensation will he give to the businesses that will close as a result of this?

The First Minister

I already said in my response to Anas Sarwar that we will consider the issues of compensation and of what more we can do to support businesses when there is disruption. I do not agree with the premise of the member’s question. I know that Kevin Stewart has been directly involved in engaging with CalMac and with the island communities that have been affected.

I go back to my responses to both Anas Sarwar and Rhoda Grant: we have the MV Alfred coming on board—I hope—in the coming days, which will provide further resilience to our network. However, I take the points that have been made. Of course, any disruption to our ferry network is regrettable. The other point that I know that Kevin Stewart has been engaging on is that we want to ensure that we improve our communication and CalMac’s communication with islanders when such disruption takes place.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The Scottish Government has now officially asked the United Kingdom armed forces to step in and provide a temporary replacement service across the Corran narrows. Although that service is run by Highland Council, it highlights the lack of resilience and the growing crisis in Scotland’s ferry network.

Can the First Minister advise me if he was involved in signing off that request to the MOD and, if so, when he did that? Given the need to ensure that this kind of disruption, and the severe impact that it has on local communities, does not happen again, will he today commit to either he, or his new transport minister, visiting the area at the earliest opportunity to meet with local residents and businesses?

The First Minister

I have a slight correction to Jamie Halcro Johnston’s question: it is our MOD. Our Scottish taxpayers’ money helps to fund the MOD, so when he talks about the MOD stepping in, it is important to say that it is using assets that Scottish taxpayers contribute towards. That is a really important point of clarification.

The Scottish Government has been helpful. We have helped to facilitate engagement between Highland Council—because we know that the Corran ferry is its responsibility—and the MOD. It was my colleague Ian Blackford, the MP for Ross, Skye and Lochaber, who helped to ensure facilitation between Highland Council, the MOD and the Scottish Government.

We will do everything that we possibly can in relation to that military aid to the civil authorities request. My understanding is that the MOD is currently doing initial assessments. Whatever the next steps are in relation to that process that involve the Scottish Government, we will be as helpful as we can possibly be.

I also remind Jamie Halcro Johnston that it was the former Deputy First Minister who announced in his final budget that the Scottish Government would provide full revenue funding to councils that run their own ferry services. Our officials are in very proactive engagement with Highland Council about these costs. Kevin Stewart would, of course, be happy to visit the Highlands and talk to the local community about the Corran ferry route.

Cancer Testing and Screening Programmes

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

7. To ask the First Minister what urgent action the Scottish Government is taking to ensure that everyone who is eligible for any cancer testing and screening programme is receiving their invitation on time, in light of recent reports that 13,000 women who were mistakenly removed from the national database are being offered an appointment for a cervical smear. (S6F-02017)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank Beatrice Wishart for raising what is an incredibly important issue. The national audit of the cervical screening programme is under way. It is a result of an incident that was brought to our attention in 2021 where a small number of women were incorrectly excluded from the cervical screening programme after having subtotal hysterectomies.

This final stage of the audit is precautionary. It follows an initial audit in 2021 of those women who were considered to be at the highest risk of being wrongly excluded. No cervical cancers were detected as part of that audit and the risk to participants in this audit is very low. The actual number of patients who need to be reinstated to the screening programme will obviously not be known until the audit is complete and all affected individuals are contacted.

Funding has been made available, particularly to GP practices to ensure that they can absorb any increase in demand.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

I thank the First Minister for that answer. I recognise the complexity of the case. We are talking about a statistically small number of people, but each of them will, no doubt, be concerned when they receive a letter. Can the First Minister assure those with concerns that measures are in place to ensure that similar errors are not repeated and that all those who are affected will be contacted as swiftly as possible? Will he indicate what work is under way to improve access to screening, including the introduction of self-sampling, to ensure that this news does not further impact uptake?

The First Minister

Beatrice Wishart is absolutely right. Although the numbers may be small, when someone receives the letter, I can imagine the impact, the concern and the worry that they will have. That is why I was very keen to reiterate that the women who were called in the first audit were the ones who were most at risk. If someone receives a letter or is asked to come back in for screening, there is low risk but, of course, there is still risk, and that will be a concern for those who receive the call-up as part of the audit.

Beatrice Wishart is also right to ask what we have done to ensure that the error does not occur again. It is an error that has occurred, I am afraid, in the system for many, many years. We have made improvements to the information technology systems in relation to the cervical cancer screening programme. We have also improved the record-keeping process, and 14 territorial boards have taken action in relation to their audit activities.

We expect the audit to be fully completed in the next 12 months. I note again that we have started with those at the highest risk.

In relation to cervical cancer, Beatrice Wishart mentioned some of the initiatives that we are taking forward, but we are also seeking to do more in relation to mobile screening units, which we know are particularly important in rural, remote and island communities. Beatrice Wishart raises a very important point indeed around the fact that we need to make sure that screening for all cancers—cervical cancers, of course, included—is as accessible as possible to as many people as possible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We will now move briefly to general and constituency supplementary questions.

Devolution

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The First Minister will be aware of an article in this morning’s

Telegraph

by Conservative peer David Frost, which proposes to reduce and remove powers of devolution and undermines this Parliament. How does the Government intend to defend the powers of this Scottish Parliament from unelected Tories at Westminster who are intent on dismantling devolution? Does the First Minister agree that it is for all MSPs from all parties to defend this Parliament from an attack on democracy?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Absolutely. Lord Frost, an unelected Tory peer, gave the game away. He said the quiet bit out loud. He said what every Scottish Conservative really thinks. I will quote him. He said:

“Not only must no more powers be devolved to Scotland, it’s time to reverse the process.”

He also said:

“Ministers should make it clear that, if re-elected, they will review and roll back some currently devolved powers.”

It is hardly a surprise that the party that did not support the Scottish Parliament now wants to dismantle it.

Let me be abundantly clear. Whether it is in relation to the section 35 veto, the Conservatives’ inability to grant an exemption under the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 or the fact that they want to curtail our excellent international development work and external engagement, the Scottish National Party-led Scottish Government will always defend our democracy and we will always defend the voice and the will of the Scottish people.

Children in Care

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The First Minister

will be aware of the report by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Scotland, “#Keeping the Promise to Infants, 0-3 Years”. It states that Scotland’s care system has a “baby blindspot”. It also states that, despite the fact that the youngest children are the most vulnerable to harm, the zero-to-three age group can often be overlooked, which is shocking, especially when a quarter of all child protection orders are for infants under 20 days old. It makes reference to the need to improve, support and redesign services in order to keep the Promise.

Given the public commitments by the former First Minister, what will the current First Minister do to ensure that the baby blindspot in Scotland is removed once and for all?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Roz McCall raises an important issue. She is right to scrutinise what the Government is going to do to keep the Promise. I made an unapologetic and unequivocal commitment in relation to this Government’s determination to keep the Promise. Of course, I have appointed a minister who has responsibility for keeping the Promise, and Natalie Don will report directly to me, as First Minister, on that issue.

The Government will lay out in detail what we can do for care-experienced young people. This Parliament has passed some relevant legislation on issues such as sibling separation, but what I heard from care-experienced young people in particular is that we need to go further in terms of the implementation of that legislation on the ground. Roz McCall rightly raises the issue of what the NSPCC refers to as the baby blindspot, and that is another issue that I am determined that we will do more on.

As I say, I give an unequivocal commitment that this Government will keep the Promise not just in relation to babies and young people, which is important, but in relation to care-experienced people, because care experience is lifelong.

Hospices (Funding)

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

Scottish hospices face a perfect storm of rising staff costs, increased energy and running costs and a tough fundraising environment. They need urgent funding to match the national health service pay uplift so that they can offer their staff the fair wage that they deserve.

Hospice UK met the First Minister in his old role as health secretary some five weeks ago, but all that it has had since are holding responses. Time is running out and hospices will need to make decisions in order to sustain their services. Will the First Minister act swiftly—indeed, today—and provide hospices with the additional funding that they so urgently need?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We are investing a record £19 billion in our health and social care system this year. That has been possible only because of the progressive taxation that the Scottish Government has brought forward. I will, of course, speak to the Cabinet Secretary for NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care to see what more we can possibly do and what funding we are able to provide. However, every penny of our funding has been allocated.

I understand that the issues that Jackie Baillie has raised on behalf of Hospice UK are important and I value the work that hospices do—I have personal experience of that work from when I lost an uncle to pancreatic cancer many years ago—so I take the issues that she raises seriously and we will look to do whatever we can to support the excellent work that our hospices do across the country.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will be a short suspension before the next item of business to allow those leaving the chamber and the public gallery to do so before the debate starts.

12:54 Meeting suspended.

12:55 On resuming—

Damp Housing

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I encourage those who are leaving the public gallery and the chamber to do so as quickly and quietly as possible.

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-07511, in the name of Foysol Choudhury, on damp housing in Scotland. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes the tragic death of Awaab Ishak due to mouldy housing; notes the view that there is a need for urgent action to avoid similar tragedies happening in Scotland, including in the Lothian region; recognises that mould and damp in homes can be dangerous and cause health problems; understands that the cost of living crisis has caused constituents across Scotland to avoid heating their homes, which can further exacerbate the problem of damp and mould; further understands that damp housing is disproportionately affecting those living in poverty; acknowledges the calls for every constituent in Scotland to have a right to safe, warm housing; notes the view that extra investment for a whole house retrofitting programme is required to tackle problems caused by damp housing; further notes the calls for the creation of a grant scheme to tackle the problems of damp housing across the housing sector, including social housing, housing associations and the private sector; notes the belief that there is a need for increased support and guidance for constituents on the prevention of damp in properties across Scotland; believes that this issue is of nationwide importance, and notes the calls for all political parties in the Parliament to collaborate to tackle damp housing in Scotland.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

I begin by thanking all those who signed the motion and all my colleagues who are present to speak on what is an important issue.

As members will be aware, in December 2020, two-year-old Awaab Ishak died from a respiratory condition that was caused by extensive mould in the housing in which he lived, in Rochdale, England. That tragedy is a stark warning of the danger that mould can cause when it is not dealt with properly. We must act now to stop preventable deaths such as Awaab’s from occurring in Scotland.

Unfortunately, too many Scottish residents live in dangerous housing. The charity Crisis found that 2 million British households on low incomes are living with poor conditions such as mould, damp and overcrowding. Scotland is particularly hard hit by that. The Scottish Government’s most recent house condition survey found that 40,000 homes in our nation fall below the tolerable standard, with one third of that figure being directly due to rising or penetrating damp. Given that, on average, there are two people per household, 80,000 Scottish residents are living in homes that their own Government considers to be unacceptable. For 27,000 of those, that is directly due to damp.

That brings me on to the experience of my constituents for whom the problem of damp and mould has become all too common. Sara Martin and Alistair Stuart live with their four children in a council house in Edinburgh. Two of the children have asthma, which has got worse, and another has developed a constant hacking cough as a result of damp and mould. Ms Martin has told me that she fears for her children because of their prolonged exposure to mould. At one point, she had to call an ambulance due to her son’s severe chest pains. The ambulance report cited mould as an environmental factor at the property.

Council repairs were undertaken at the property, but my constituents have reported that the work was simply cosmetic—it only covered up the mould, which came back just months later. Sara and Alistair have now had to leave the flat after dealing with the damp and mould for 10 years. Structural repairs to deal with the mould are still not finished.

Another of my constituents has been living in a mould-infested house for 16 months. The placement was supposed to be temporary accommodation, but she now has to live out of one bedroom with her 21-month-old son. She has spoken of the serious effect that the situation has had on her mental health. She believes that she cannot access the help that she needs until her difficult living situation is resolved. She feels helpless and that nothing is being done to move her into permanent or safe accommodation.

The negligent behaviour of private landlords is particularly to blame for the situation. Almost half of private sector rented homes in Scotland failed to meet the Scottish housing quality standards. The lack of regulation in the sector means that the worst landlords get away with providing poor-quality homes, and people on the lowest incomes live in them because they feel that they have no other option.

The experience of my constituents speaks for itself. I have heard from other constituents who have had to move out of their privately rented accommodation because of fears about the effects of damp and mould on their very young child. That was after repeated attempts to get the letting agent to do more than cosmetic repairs that simply covered up the mould instead of eradicating it.

Letting agents and private landlords must ensure that tenants are aware of the ways in which mould and damp occur and how to prevent them. Many tenements around Scotland have no place to dry clothes outdoors. That only makes the problem worse. More information needs to be made available to tenants to make them aware of the causes of mould and ways in which to treat and prevent it. In addition, landlords should not rent out houses or flats that need structural repairs to avoid mould forming.

Ultimately, housing providers should be held responsible for ensuring that the accommodation that they provide is clean and safe for every resident or tenant who moves in. The Scottish Government needs to do more to help them and to hold them accountable when crucial repair work is not done properly. How many trips to hospitals, long-term illnesses or deaths caused by damp housing will it take for the Scottish Government to take the issue seriously?

Too many of our citizens are living in dangerous accommodation, and landlords are getting away with doing nothing about it. We, as a Parliament, have to do more.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Given the earlier start time for the resumption of business this afternoon, I would be grateful if colleagues stick to their speaking time allocation, although I will certainly allow time back for interventions.

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

I commend Foysol Choudhury for his motion and for bringing this important debate to the chamber.

I am speaking in my capacity as a constituency MSP, of course, and in light of the experiences in casework that I have received. The number of Edinburgh and Lothian MSPs who are in attendance is interesting. The motion was, of course, lodged by a Lothian MSP.

I commend the incredible action from the Scottish Government since 2007 in delivering 118,000 affordable homes across the country, but there are areas across the country—particularly in Edinburgh—where the standard of housing is not up to what we would want our constituents to experience. Indeed, the City of Edinburgh Council has stated that Edinburgh has the lowest proportion of social rented homes in Scotland. That is an important fact to consider when thinking about the wider question.

The problems that are outlined in the motion and which will be discussed in the debate fall into two areas of concern: the public provision of social housing through registered social landlords or council houses, and the provision through mid-market rent.

The clear argument that I want to articulate on behalf of my constituents is that, first, we need additional capital investment in Edinburgh to provide more affordable homes here in the capital. Secondly, we need to work with the local authority to make sure that the quality of the works undertaken is of the right standard.

I know that colleagues will also have had casework relating to repairs not being done to an adequate standard. Indeed, I have discussed that issue with the City of Edinburgh Council, and I would be happy to engage with the Government and the council on how we address the matter more substantially.

Foysol Choudhury referred to the private rented sector. The problems that are emerging relate to two policy considerations. The first is the lack of enforcement of our housing standards. That will become even more pertinent when 1 March 2024 comes around and the new standard is implemented. We have to get better at enforcing the standards that we have more strongly. I am not sure that we necessarily need new legislation—a new standard is coming next year—but we need to make sure that standards are enforced and that private landlords are held to account for the quality of the dwellings that they provide to people.

The second consideration relates to a piece of work that I started back in 2016 and which I was leading on in the Parliament until 2018. It has been taken on by other members of the Scottish Parliament—in particular, by Graham Simpson. I am talking about tenement repairs and maintenance. A great deal of work has gone into taking the matter forward by that group of MSPs and stakeholders, and I know that Patrick Harvie is leading on this area for the Government. We have to do the hard work and implement the law so that we have a system that facilitates greater upkeep of properties.

It is all very well building new properties and building them to a high standard, but we also need to make sure that we repair and maintain the quality of our current stock. That involves systematic change, and it will also require political leadership. There is lots of work to do. We are all committed to making sure that we improve the situation. All that I ask of the minister, whom I welcome to his post, is a commitment in his summing-up speech to meet me—indeed, I think that it would be worth while for him to meet all the MSPs for Edinburgh and the Lothians—to discuss the specific challenges that we have here in the capital.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I thank my friend and Lothian MSP colleague Foysol Choudhury for securing this important debate. As Ben Macpherson has outlined, I hope that the debate provides the opportunity for Edinburgh and Lothian MSPs to really push the Government on this issue, which is really important to our constituents. I also welcome both ministers to their positions.

We all know the negative impact that poor housing can have on people’s health—individuals and families. The Royal College of General Practitioners briefing for the debate made a number of important points about the real, direct impact that poor housing has not just in terms of housing but on our health service, too. We need to look at the matter holistically across our public services, because cold, damp homes make people ill. General practitioners are often approached by patients—I have worked with GPs on this—who have concerns about their housing and are trying to move out of those homes. They are looking for supporting letters to be able to achieve that through a housing association or a private tenancy. Those are important issues that we also need to consider.

As the Crisis briefing for today’s debate states, Scotland has some of the oldest housing stock in Europe. One in five homes were built more than a century ago, so ensuring that homes are healthy, safe and energy efficient presents a huge challenge to us all. We have to recognise that, in Scotland, about 40,000 homes that people are living in fall below tolerable standards—that was the 2019 figure from the Scottish house condition survey.

Replies to recent freedom of information requests that I have sent to local authorities have shown that a number of incidents involving the reporting of mould and damp, especially during the pandemic, have not been addressed. Foysol Choudhury made some important points in his opening speech in that regard. Along with other Edinburgh MSPs, I recently met the Edinburgh Tenants Federation. The standard of repairs that we are seeing is totally unacceptable. People are reporting cases of mould and damp, but it is just being painted over. Literally within hours, the problem is re-emerging. How we make sure that repairs take place, rather than the damp being painted over, is key. Ben Macpherson touched on that, and I hope that the housing bill might present an opportunity to address the matter. We also need to make sure that there is qualitative work, because there is not enough of that.

I welcome the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations’ briefing, which makes some positive points about the work that it, along with the Scottish Housing Regulator, has undertaken to try to make sure that standards are improving. It points specifically to a practical guide that it has developed with housing professionals to make sure that housing associations respond to incidents of mould and damp and that specific standards are put in place.

The United Kingdom Government is perhaps slightly ahead of us in that regard. Michael Gove has taken a good lead on the issue, and there is a shared need for us to look at it. Awaab’s law will make sure that there are specific laws and protocols relating to how damp and mould are reported, to the time limits that people should expect for inspections and work to take place, and to people being removed from homes that are unfit for habitation. It is important that we develop Scottish standards on that as soon as possible.

I know that I have only a few seconds of my time left. I recently lodged a written question for the Scottish Government, which Shona Robison responded to. She said:

“The Scottish Government does not have a reporting system in place to track incidents of damp and mould”—[

Written Answers

, 10 January 2023; S6W-12614.]

in homes in Scotland. We need to rectify that, and I hope that the minister will take that away. I welcome the fact that he is reaching out to all parties and spokespeople on the matter, and I look forward to taking the issue forward. I hope that we can have a wider debate on the issue in Government time in the coming weeks.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

I apologise to members, as I will have to leave early to attend an event that I agreed to chair some time ago.

Like other members, I am grateful to Foysol Choudhury for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I will also plug a housing summit that I am hosting in the Parliament about the housing crisis in Edinburgh—I know that some members have already signed up to it—that will look at scarcity, overcrowding and dilapidation. I look forward to seeing some members there.

I acknowledge the unspeakably tragic loss of Awaab Ishak, who was just two years old when he died. The appalling conditions in his family’s home should never have had to be endured, and his death must serve as a wake-up call highlighting how deeply important it is to fix the state of housing in the United Kingdom. A home must be a place of safety and solace. It is a space where loved ones can gather, relish the joys of life and find peace. No matter the size or price, whether rented or owned, someone’s home should be a comforting presence in their life. All too often, that is not the case.

The right to adequate shelter is a fundamental human right that is recognised in both domestic and international law. However, frankly, the rapid deterioration of housing conditions has threatened that right for thousands of families across Scotland. The latest Scottish house condition survey found that 40,000 homes in Scotland failed the tolerable standard threshold—that is 2 per cent of all dwellings in Scotland. Once characterised by warmth and safety, countless Scottish homes have now been plunged into damp, dilapidation and mould. Any such home is a real risk to health, as we have heard many times in the debate, and those dire conditions have led to a material negative impact on the wellbeing of many of our constituents.

Far too many of my constituents, many of whom live in areas of extreme deprivation, have contacted my office seeking assistance with the condition of their homes. I know that I am not alone in that; we have heard some of that in the debate. They include Bobbie, whose flat has been covered in mould for months, which has made her young children sick as a result; or Karen, a woman with pre-existing respiratory problems who, because of high levels of mould in her house, is struggling to breathe in her own home. Constituents such as Karen and Bobbie tell me about the impacts that that mould has had on not just their physical health but their mental health. They are racked with anxiety about their safety and that of their loved ones inside their own homes.

I know many of my parliamentary colleagues have had similar conversations in their constituencies. Cases such as those of Karen and Bobbie are all too common. Frankly, that is not acceptable. It is incumbent on us in the Parliament and it is our duty as public servants to use every tool that is at our disposal to solve the crisis.

As the tragic case of Awaab Ishak painfully demonstrated, we cannot afford to wait. First, the Government must recognise and rectify the hollowing out of Scottish communities and the slashing of council budgets. Those cuts have left local authorities without the ability to provide widespread high-quality housing for their most vulnerable constituents. Addressing that must be a top priority for the new SNP-Green Administration. It would greatly aid in fixing council-owned properties in a dire state.

My amendment in the cost of living and child poverty debate this Tuesday called for the Government to take on the Liberal Democrats’ plan for an emergency home insulation programme that would save more that £700 million for Scottish families that are in social housing and private lets. Regrettably, the amendment was voted down.

The skyrocketing energy costs this winter led to seven in 10 Scots reporting that they would heat their home less than they normally would, which undoubtedly contributes further to mould and exacerbates the housing crisis.

The SNP must commit to being honest with the country, and I hope that our new housing minister will join a cross-party conversation that acknowledges the shortcomings of previous Government strategies, and that he agrees with me that concrete action needs to be taken urgently to address this pressing issue. Then, and only then, can Scottish families live in the safety and solace that they deserve.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

I

thank my colleague Foysol Choudhury for bringing this important debate to chamber.

I begin by offering my condolences to Awaab Ishak’s family. They suffered an unimaginable tragedy in 2020. Awaab was two years old and he died needlessly. His death was wholly preventable. He was a poor bairn who was poorly served by public service, and that should be chilling to all of us in the chamber. Article 27 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child states:

“I have the right to have a proper house, food and clothing.”

A proper house does not mean any house; it means a house that gives security and safety and that does not damage health.

I am heartened by the action that the Scottish Government has taken on housing during the pandemic and amidst a cost of living crisis. Measures such as the rent freeze and the moratorium on evictions were bold rights-based policies, and those ideals—protecting people’s right to housing—should be the benchmark for future policy. We can build on that progress.

My office has a vested interested in this debate, as our case load has been high with serious concerns about the prevalent dismissive attitudes of many landlords—including social landlords—when it came to damp and mould. Awaab’s story should have set alarm bells ringing for landlords across the UK but, during the past year, my office has received several reports of damp and mould in local authority housing from constituents. Sadly, the blame game exists. The most typical excuses that are given in response are that damp and mould are caused by excessive showering, drying clothes in the house and not ventilating the property. We have to push for further action.

As reflected in today’s motion, that dismissive culture has led to tenants being forced to adopt potentially harmful daily practices. Many will feel compelled to turn on the heating to counter the cold and damp, and many will feel conflicted because they are worried about rising bills. Some will feel pressured to open windows to increase ventilation, but Scottish winters are unforgiving.

In some cases, the council eventually agreed to do remedial works. Unfortunately, that often means just covering over the damp areas and not tackling the dampness in the buildings. When the damp inevitably returns, the work order is repeated.

I have been helping a constituent who was forced out of their home due to flooding caused by empty council properties, or voids. The council in question is North Lanarkshire Council, which has a Labour administration that is supported by the Tories. The failure to secure voids against the winter has caused immeasurable damage not only to the void properties but to neighbouring ones and to council tenants.

One constituent of mine has been out of her home for five months awaiting remedial work because of damage caused by flooding because a void property was not protected from the winter. In that time, she has been paying rent for a property she cannot live in. That inequity cannot be allowed to exist.

As I said at the outset, the right to safe, secure and warm housing is not rhetoric; it is a fundamental human right and, indeed, a children’s right. The abrogation of that right has become prevalent, and landlords must be held to account when it is impinged on. I wholly reject the notion that that is a lofty or idealistic want; with political will, it is eminently achievable.

I again thank Foysol Choudhury for highlighting the very sad case of Awaab Ishak and his family. Let us ensure that his death was not in vain, as we tackle this issue.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

I, too, thank Foysol Choudhury for securing the debate, and I hope that it will be instrumental in getting this issue the priority that it deserves.

Others have already spoken about the death of Awaab Ishak. It was a tragedy but, sadly, it was not a one-off. His parents fought bravely to have their housing issues recognised and to protect their child, and I am sad to say that they also had to fight to have the cause of his death properly recorded. That took strength.

I fear that, if all deaths due to damp and mouldy homes were recorded appropriately, the numbers would be huge. We all have cases of families coming to us, complaining of damp in their homes. All too often, they are told that it is down to their drying washing indoors, and their concerns are not taken seriously. “Putting Safety First: a briefing note on damp and mould for social housing practitioners” states:

“Responding to damp and mould primarily or initially as a lifestyle problem is inappropriate and ineffective.”

Indeed, that was reflected in the Housing Ombudsman’s report into the social landlord responsible for Awaab Ishak’s death. It takes effort and persistence to get a different approach taken and to get concerns taken seriously.

Housing problems are going to get worse, because of the cost of living crisis. People can no longer afford to heat their homes adequately and, as a result, damp is much more likely. The Highlands and Islands has the highest rates of fuel poverty in the country. The climate means that homes need year-round heating, and people do not have the luxury of being able to turn off the heating in the summer. The Scottish Government must therefore revisit the winter heating payment. It is unacceptable that people who have to have their heating on year round receive the same amount as those who can switch theirs off over the summer.

The Scottish Government must also look at its other schemes such as the boiler replacement and insulation schemes, which do nothing for off-gas-grid properties. They have been designed for urban housing schemes, not draughty old croft houses. It is sad that such ignorance on the part of the Scottish Government is actively stopping intervention instead of putting it in place.

Moreover, there is no point installing heat pumps in homes that have poor or no insulation. The Scottish Government must start by retrofitting old homes to make them energy efficient and then look at heating solutions. Of course, we need to stop reliance on fossil fuels, but the only way of doing that is by providing workable alternatives, which must start with cutting the amount of fuel needed to heat a home.

The Scottish Government is not doing that in the areas with the highest fuel poverty. Policy devised for rural areas works everywhere, whereas policy designed in urban areas does not transfer easily to rural parts. I urge those in the Government to get out from behind their desks and look at the reality of the impact of these policies on rural Scotland, because our young people should be able to grow up healthy and happy in warm homes.

Gordon MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Pentlands)

I, too, thank Foysol Choudhury for lodging this motion for debate. There is no doubt that, in the 12 years that I have been an MSP representing the Edinburgh Pentlands constituency, housing—and, in particular, damp housing—has been the number 1 issue for my constituents.

Given the numerous cases that my staff and I have raised with the City of Edinburgh Council and Link PSL with regard to the condition of some properties in my constituency, including the Wester Hailes area, I welcomed the announcement in March 2021 that the council was piloting its new mixed tenure improvement service to upgrade all 1970s-built flats in Wester Hailes. That £30 million improvement scheme, which applies to almost 1,300 homes across 167 blocks of flats, is now well under way in the Murrayburn, Hailesland and Dumbryden areas. Work on each block includes repair or replacement of roofing, guttering, drying room facades, installation of external wall and attic insulation, as well as maintenance and decoration of the communal stairwells and closes.

Although most residents were pleased that the upgrade was happening, there was a large financial penalty for the 29 per cent of homes that were privately owned. Owner-occupiers were initially asked to contribute over £30,000, which many found was simply unaffordable and the only option available to them was to sell their home back to the council.

I was approached by several owners at the time and, by working with council officials, we managed to identify that substantial untapped funding for owners was available through the Scottish Government’s home energy efficiency programme grant scheme. We also highlighted to the council that, in comparison to other city councils, the loan period was too short and the interest rates were too high. The outcome was that the loan period was extended from 10 to 15 years and the interest rate was cut from 6 per cent to 4 per cent. The result was that my constituents saw their bills for the improvement work drop by at least 50 per cent.

Phases 1 to 4 have been completed, covering 484 flats and 18 houses, and those streets now look vibrant and modern with residents benefiting from warmer and more energy-efficient homes. The common areas between the blocks have yet to be upgraded but my understanding is that council plans are under way to further enhance the area with new play areas, upgraded landscaping and improved car parking.

Given the energy crisis of the past couple of years, it is important to measure how the energy efficiency measures are performing. Many residents have agreed to have Tinytag loggers installed in their homes to enable moisture and temperature levels to be measured and to track the energy efficiency of their homes.

The early indications of the energy efficiency of the refurbished homes are encouraging, with residents highlighting that their homes heat up quicker and stay warmer for longer, and that they do not need to have the heating on for as long or as often as they did prior to the works. There are also financial savings: one tenant said that she did not switch on her heating at all last winter and believes that she has saved about 80 per cent on her heating bills. The homes in the completed phases are now reaching an average EPC rating of B, which is equal to new-build standard and is higher than the current Scottish average EPC rating of D.

It is a hugely successful improvement programme that I believe should be not only replicated across my constituency but rolled out across all social housing in Scotland. I welcome the minister to his post. If he has not yet seen the improvements that are under way in Wester Hailes, I invite him to visit my constituency to see what can be achieved to tackle the issue of cold and damp homes.

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

I welcome the new housing minister to his post. I congratulate Foysol Choudhury for leading this important debate and for his relentless campaigning for justice in highlighting the tragic death of

Awaab Ishak

.

What a shameful indictment it is that, nearly a quarter of a century since devolution, and since housing has been solely in the hands of the Scottish Parliament, it is still necessary to lodge a motion on the scandal of damp housing in Scotland. Why is that? Is it because there are too many landlords in this Parliament and too few tenants? We do have a problem of the overrepresentation of landlordism—the register of members’ interests is bulging with landlords. Is it because there are too few representatives in the Parliament who have first-hand experience of poverty and the decrepit slum housing that is below the tolerable standard that invariably goes with it, or is it because the Government of the past 15 years has simply had the wrong political priorities?

Next march will mark the centenary of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act 1924—the John Wheatley housing act. By common consent, it is not just the most important piece of legislation but the most important practical action and act of socialism of that first-ever Labour Government.

Wheatley took the concept that he had developed as an Independent Labour Party councillor in Glasgow, representing the slum dwellers of the city, and worked with people such as Mary Barbour, and John Maclean, whose centenary we celebrate this year. He also worked with the tenants movement and the trade unions to invest the surpluses from the Glasgow Corporation trams to clear out the slum landlords and to invest in decent council housing.

He scaled that concept up nationally and, in so doing, he unleashed the means for some of the finest council houses ever built—“homes, not hutches”. That is the kind of national vision that we need now, but it is also the kind of national urgency that we need now, because I tell you this: the experience of Wheatley, of Mary Barbour, of Maclean and of other pioneers was that bad housing led to bad health.

Wheatley, as minister for health, had responsibility for housing, too. In 1945, Nye Bevan was not just the minister for health but minister for housing, too. They knew that we needed the clearance of slums to ensure the clearance of public health ills such as tuberculosis. So I call on all members of this Parliament to start giving a much higher priority to housing, and for much higher investment, too. Let us have the imagination of a century ago.

Finally, I do not want to overinflate the minister’s ego, but I have long held the view that the housing minister should be a dedicated minister of Cabinet rank, because there is a housing crisis, there is a public health crisis and there is a class-based crisis.

So we are indebted to Foysol Choudhury for lodging this motion, but we need to send out the message that Parliament does not bring about change; it is the people who bring about change. It was the people outside Parliament—the rent strikers in Glasgow—who brought about the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act 1915. It was the people outside Parliament who built the movement for change that culminated in the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act 1924, and it will be the people once again—the Living Rent campaigners, the tenants organisations and the trade unions—who will build up pressure on this Parliament to use the powers that we have to build a better future and to banish damp housing finally to the history books.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr Leonard. I call Paul McLennan to respond to the debate.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests.

I thank Foysul Choudhury for bringing forward the motion and I thank members for their thoughtful contributions, which I will touch on later.

The tragic death of Awaab Ishak in a housing association property in Rochdale in 2020 highlighted the issue of damp and mould in housing to everyone across the United Kingdom. Nobody should live in substandard accommodation. Today, we have heard from various members that decent housing is a human right. Nobody should lose their life due to the condition of their home.

The Scottish Government takes—I take—the issue very seriously, and I will touch on some of the points that have been raised in that regard. The Government is committed to tackling disrepair and driving a culture in which good maintenance is given a high priority. The condition of homes in Scotland has been improving due to the action of this Government, but there is no doubt that we need to quicken that action. We recognise that there is much to do to ensure that everyone has the same chance to live in a high-quality home.

Earlier this week, the First Minster was clear in setting out that this Government’s work will be defined by three distinct and interdependent missions. Those missions are centred on the principles of equality, opportunity and community. Housing plays a key part in that and it has a vital role in delivering on those principles.

All homes in Scotland must meet the minimum tolerable standard. We have heard that 40,000 homes do not meet that standard, which is 40,000 homes too many. Local authorities are required to have a strategy for ensuring that all homes that do not meet the tolerable standard are improved, and they have broad powers to assist home owners to ensure that their properties meet that standard. In the rented sector, there are additional standards that must be met.

In the social rented sector, the standard of homes has improved since we introduced requirements to meet the Scottish housing quality standard in 2012. The Scottish Housing Regulator is responsible for monitoring and reporting on social landlords’ performance against the Scottish social housing charter. Social landlords are required to have a clear complaints process, and where a tenant is dissatisfied with the response of their landlord, they are able to escalate the issue to the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman.

Given the severity of the issues that have been identified in social housing in England, it was right to take urgent action here in Scotland. The Scottish Housing Regulator immediately wrote to all social landlords to ask them to consider the systems that they have in place for dealing with damp and mould and what work they have done. The SHR has since worked with the Association of Local Authority Chief Housing Officers, the Chartered Institute of Housing and the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations to produce updated guidance. I hope to meet all those organisations in the near future and will raise the issue with them. I am pleased that the sector is taking action and working together to tackle the issue.

Foysol Choudhury mentioned private landlords. They have to adhere to the repairing standard, which was updated and strengthened in 2019. Mr Macpherson talked about the additional standards coming into force in 2024. It is key that we monitor that and I have asked officials to consider how we do that much more regularly. We cannot be in a position in which we are looking at figures that are two or three years old.

If a landlord has been notified of a problem and it has not been dealt with, tenants have the right to refer the matter to the First-tier Tribunal housing and property chamber, which can require landlords to take action. I encourage anyone who is in that position to do so. However, I take on board the point about communication to ensure that tenants are aware of their right to do that. I am also asking officials to consider that.

To support private landlords to meet the requirements of the updated repairing standard, we published new guidance last month. The guidance sets out the action that private landlords must take when dealing with problems of damp and mould.

Foysol Choudhury and Clare Adamson correctly said that problems with damp and mould can be exacerbated if people are not able to heat their homes. Everyone needs accommodation that is safe, warm and affordable. Energy bills are still at historically high levels and the UK Government is withdrawing its energy bills support scheme even though we know that many people are struggling to afford their fuel bills.

At First Minister’s questions, the First Minister mentioned the fuel insecurity fund, which we had doubled from £10 million to £20 million but will now triple to £30 million. The fund is a critical plank in our support to people who are struggling with their energy costs. It continues to provide a lifeline to households who are at risk of self-rationing their energy use or of self-disconnection.

As we progress our just transition to net zero, we must ensure that we continue to tackle fuel poverty, working with our advisory panel to meet our statutory fuel poverty targets. The Scottish Government has allocated £350 million to heat, energy efficiency and fuel poverty measures this year, including £119 million targeted at fuel-poor households.

Rhoda Grant mentioned the winter heating payment. I would be willing to discuss with her how we monitor the new system and how it supports the Highland communities. I will touch a bit more on the points that you raised in that regard. The investment of £20 million in the winter heating payment is alongside other valuable support, such as the child winter heating assistance and wider energy-efficiency measures.

To ensure that all homes are warmer, greener and more efficient, we have, through our heat in buildings strategy, set the target of all homes in Scotland reaching a good level of energy efficiency by 2033. I take the point that Rhoda Grant made. How we work with our rural communities on that is not a one-size-fits-all approach. That is vital.

I am keen to visit rural communities this summer, so I would be delighted to engage with you on suggestions for doing that. In particular, we could discuss housing and other issues that you have raised the debate. I am happy to engage—[

Interruption

.] Sorry, but I do not know whether that was an intervention. [

Interruption

.] No, it was not—my apologies.

In addition to playing a key role in meeting our climate targets, improving the energy efficiency of our homes will also help to ensure that energy costs in the future are affordable and will provide considerable wider social, environmental and health benefits. We have committed to investment of at least £1.8 billion across this session of Parliament for heat and energy efficiency projects.

I will touch briefly on some of the other points that have been raised. Foysol Choudhury mentioned the 40,000 homes that are below the standard. That number is far too many.

Ben Macpherson requested that I meet Edinburgh MSPs. I would be delighted to do that. Alex Cole-Hamilton mentioned that as well. We could talk not only about damp housing but about the wider issues. I will ask my officials to contact you and Mr Cole-Hamilton, and I would be delighted to attend any summit.

You also mentioned enforcement in tenement repair and maintenance. That is incredibly important. I hope to meet the City of Edinburgh Council soon and will engage with you on that. If there are any examples—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I give you a gentle reminder that remarks should be made through the chair rather than directly to members.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

My apologies. Miles Briggs mentioned tenure and meeting the same standards as set out in “Housing to 2040”. That is something that we will be looking to do.

It will be part of the housing bill, and I am happy to engage with Mr Briggs on the issue. Indeed, we already have a meeting planned in regard to it.

Alex Cole-Hamilton mentioned the housing summit. I would be happy to pick up on that as well. On cross-party discussions on housing in general, I have already engaged with the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and met Mr Rennie of the Liberal Democrats.

Clare Adamson’s point about empty homes and voids is incredibly important. I have already touched on Rhoda Grant’s points. I would be happy to accept Gordon Macdonald’s invitation to visit the scheme that he mentioned. I have read about that great scheme, and there are opportunities to see how we could replicate it across Scotland.

It was the usual passionate speech from Richard Leonard. Housing is a human right. That is the key point. With the appointment of a dedicated Minister for Housing, there is more of a focus on that. I am dedicated to pushing it as a human right. There are lots of issues in that regard.

Standards have improved in Scotland over the years, and we have taken urgent action to support households that are experiencing high energy bills and poor living conditions, but there is much more to do. The Government and I have big ambitions and there is much more work to be done to achieve them. However, the tragic story of Awaab Ishak reminds us all why doing so is so important.

I again thank Foysol Choudhury and other members for their contributions.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes the debate. I suspend the meeting until 2 o’clock.

13:40 Meeting suspended.

14:00 On resuming—

Social Justice, Housing and Local Government

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio questions on social justice, housing and local government. I remind members that if they wish to request to ask a supplementary they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question or indicate that in the chat function by entering the letters RTS during the relevant question.

Affordable Homes

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

1. To ask the Scottish Government how many affordable homes it has delivered in the past year. (S6O-02116)

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Scotland has led the way in the delivery of affordable housing across the United Kingdom. Latest published statistics to the end of December 2022 show that, in the calendar year 2022, the Scottish Government supported, through the affordable housing supply programme, the delivery of 9,727 affordable homes—an increase of 1 per cent on the previous calendar year. More than 8,000 of those homes are for social rent, which takes the total number of affordable homes delivered since 2007 to more than 118,000, 70 per cent of which are for social rent.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the minister for that response, which I welcome. Statistics that were released by the Scottish Government last month indicate that the number of new home starts in the last quarter of 2022 decreased by 24 per cent. The housing market is in crisis and, without any plans for how to address it, things can only get worse.

Projects are being halted due in part to Patrick Harvie’s rent freeze. Does the minister agree that the recent rent cap will negatively impact on delivery of new homes?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

One of the key points when discussing the sector is cost: the cost of construction inflation and general inflation costs. Construction inflation is at 16 per cent, which has obviously impacted on delivery of homes in both the social and private sectors. That is the feedback that we have had. The feedback also tells us that the market has slowed down because of the massive increase in interest rates, which I think has been the biggest influence that we have seen in the slow-down of the housing market.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Shetland continues to have a shortage of available housing and long waiting lists for housing association and council homes. Recruitment and retention in key industries and public services is hampered by lack of available housing. The Scottish Government needs to ramp up the pace to deliver its promise to build 110,000 affordable homes by 2032. How is the Scottish Government ensuring that estimates of the number of affordable homes that are needed in rural and island areas are adjusted for the demands of growing industries being attracted to the Highlands and Islands?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Beatrice Wishart has made an incredibly important point. At least 10 per cent of the 110,000 target is to be rural housing, which is about 11,000 homes. We are working on our remote, rural and islands housing action plan. I am looking to visit as many islands and rural areas as I can, as part of my work over the summer. I would be keen to visit Beatrice Wishart’s constituency, in that regard.

As I mentioned, we have to look at the 16 per cent increase in construction costs in relation to affordability. I am working on that with officials at the moment. We will see more detailed work in the remote, rural and islands housing action plan. I am more than happy to visit Beatrice Wishart’s constituency during the next few months.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Before I move to question 2 from Bob Doris, I note that the member was not here at the start of portfolio questions. I am sure that you will wish to preface your question with an apology to the chamber.

Low-income Families (Glasgow)

Bob Doris (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn)

2. Indeed, I would have apologised without your prompting, Presiding Officer. That is duly noted and my apologies are forthcoming.

To ask the Scottish Government how it supports low-income families in Glasgow. (S6O-02117)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Tackling child poverty is a defining mission of this Government. We are providing a range of support that will benefit families in Glasgow and across Scotland. That includes investment in the Scottish child payment, 1,140 hours of funded childcare, free school meals and discretionary housing payments, which provide direct financial support to people who are struggling with housing costs. We are actively working with partners in Glasgow to connect families to the services that they need in order to thrive, and we have committed to tripling our fuel insecurity fund to support anyone who is at risk of self-disconnection or of self-rationing their energy use.

Bob Doris (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn)

I welcome those substantial efforts.

In Tuesday’s child poverty debate, I suggested the possibility of providing a school clothing grant twice in the school year and a summer holiday supplement to the Scottish child payment, which suggestions could benefit low-income families at particularly challenging times. Given that there is to be an anti-poverty summit, how will the Scottish Government consider new initiatives to tackle child poverty—including the suggestions that I have made—and how will those be agreed, as resources are identified?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I thank Bob Doris for his proposals and suggestions. The last point in his question—on when new resources are identified—is the key point because, as Mr Doris knows, one of the challenges is that our budgets are fully allocated. However, we need to look seriously at new ideas, which is why the First Minister has proposed the anti-poverty summit. I believe that invitations are now going out for that.

I am happy to take Mr Doris’s suggestions as read, but if he would like to provide me with more detail in writing, I would be happy to receive that.

Winter Heating Payment (Aberdeenshire)

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the number of households that have received the winter heating payment in Aberdeenshire. (S6O-02118)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

As a 31 March 2023, almost 400,000 low-income households had automatically received their £50 winter heating payment to support them with their energy bills for this winter. All will have received a letter explaining their entitlement to the benefit.

Our first release of official statistics on winter heating payments will be published on 6 June 2023, and they will be released annually, in the future. The statistics will include additional local authority area breakdowns and will be available on Social Security Scotland’s website.

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

We

look forward to the local authority breakdowns. In my constituency, areas such as Braemar and Aboyne have been recognised as having some of the coldest temperatures in the United Kingdom, and previously constituents could have received more than triple the current £50 flat rate. What consideration has the Scottish Government given to people who are now missing out on receiving support that they previously had under the UK’s cold weather payment?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

O

ne of the challenges of the previous scheme, which the winter heating payment scheme has tried to resolve, was that nobody knew how much money they were going to get each year. It was, of course, weather dependent but it did not include aspects such as wind-chill factor, and there was a great challenge in terms of where weather stations are. That created great challenges for people in some parts of the country, who did not receive money that they thought they should be receiving.

With the benefit, we have tried to ensure that people know how much they will receive and when they will receive it, so that there is certainty about what is happening. That is very important when we look at the cost of living crisis that has been exacerbated by Tory mismanagement of the UK economy, including energy prices.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question 4

has been withdrawn.

Older People and Social Security

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether older people and social security are priority policy areas, in light of the decision not to include those in ministerial titles in the recent round of ministerial appointments. (S6O-02120)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, which includes social security. The Minister for Equalities, Migration and Refugees, as with the previous equalities minister, has responsibility for older people. It is totally clear to anyone that social security and older people are important to this Government, unlike the United Kingdom Government. That is why we are delivering seven Scottish Government benefits that are available only in Scotland, and are mitigating the harm that has been caused by UK Government policies.

Our £50 winter heating payment goes automatically to 400,000 people, including those on pension credit, and we have tripled the fuel insecurity fund to £30 million to support people in hardship. I urge the UK Government to match those efforts.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

With no specific minister responsible for social security, what reassurances can the Scottish Government give us that there will be no further slippage in the full transfer of devolved benefits?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

This is the second day in a row that we have tried this; I am going to try once again. I am the minister who is responsible for social security. When Ben Macpherson, as a junior minister, was made responsible for social security, the Conservatives complained that we had demoted the post; however, now they are complaining because it is back at cabinet secretary level. I find it a little bit strange. It is maybe a case of finding a complaint where none is required.

I hope to be able to demonstrate to Jeremy Balfour through the work that we do—and, I hope, through work that we do together—that I will be taking very seriously all the issues that are involved in Social Security, and I will be ensuring that we work towards delivering not only the benefits but the case transfers, as the current timetable suggests.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

I cannot believe that the Conservatives are so worried about titles instead of reality.

I understand that the Scottish Government has recently launched a campaign to make people more aware of eligibility for disability benefits. Can the cabinet secretary say more about that campaign?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

That is a very important aspect that we are determined to carry forward. Not only is that about putting dignity, fairness and respect in the system, but it plays a part in ensuring that people are aware of the benefits that are available, and that they are encouraged to apply for what they are eligible for. I do not know of any UK Government scheme that proactively encourages people to apply for disability benefits and aims to ensure that people get the money that they are entitled to. We are absolutely determined to do that.

I encourage all members in the chamber, regardless of their party, to share for the benefit of their constituents the work that Social Security Scotland has done on the campaign.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

In a week in which research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has revealed that the number of people who are living in very deep poverty has increased significantly in the past two decades, does the cabinet secretary at least acknowledge that removal of those subjects from ministerial briefs sends a concerning message about the Government’s commitment in those spaces? Would she also recognise that, although she is a very talented member of the Government, she has a brief that is huge and very varied, and that having a minister who is responsible for older people and social security would be of great help to everyone who is involved in tackling poverty?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am quite happy to take compliments when they are given—by members of the Opposition, in particular.

I say to Paul O’Kane with the greatest respect that one of the things that the Government is normally criticised for is its being too big and having too many ministers. Now it seems that we are being encouraged to have more ministers in my portfolio. Although I might welcome that for my portfolio, I think that it can be seen on the front bench today that we are ably supported by a range of ministers. We will be delighted to work together with the member and others on all parts of the portfolio.

Eviction Cases

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports that there were 224 eviction cases involving tenants lodged with the First-tier Tribunal for Scotland in the month to 15 March. (S6O-02121)

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

We understand that the figure of 224 that the member quotes relates to the number of eviction hearings or case management discussions that were scheduled to take place up to 15 March 2023. That is not the number of eviction applications that have been received by the tribunal. Each application can involve a number of hearings or discussions, so the number of those will not be the same as the number of eviction applications received.

The Cost of Living (Tenant) Protection (Scotland) Act 2022 does not prevent landlords serving a notice to leave or making an application to the tribunal, and the tribunal will still make a decision on whether to issue an eviction order or decree. However, enforcement of the eviction must be paused for up to six months, except in certain narrowly defined circumstances.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I am pleased that the Scottish Government has confirmed that the moratorium on evictions, plus a rent cap, will remain in place until September. However, the number of eviction cases being lodged per month appears to be actually higher than before the eviction ban, due to various loopholes in the legislation. The ban does not apply to tenants with arrears of six months or more, to social tenants with debts of more than £2,250 or where the landlord chooses to sell the property.

Would the minister be willing to look at whether it might be possible to remove those loopholes and at how that would impact on the real situations that tenants face?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

We are keeping the operation of the 2022 act under continual review. We will report on it regularly to Parliament, as the act requires us to do.

The member will recall debates during the passage of the legislation on the question of rent arrears. I made the case that, although the arguments are balanced in some ways, the help that people with rent arrears need is not simply to be stuck where they are as they build up ever more unpayable debt. The form of help that they need is direct assistance, and that is what the Government has made available in other ways.

Rather than thinking that we will go back and unpick the legislation, which was passed with the support of Labour colleagues, let us make sure that we continue to operate it as effectively as we can to give tenants in Scotland the protection that they so badly need, and which is so completely lacking in other parts of the United Kingdom.

Poverty (Older People)

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the recent report by Independent Age, which states that one in seven people in Scotland over the state pension age live in poverty. (S6O-02122)

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

The Scottish Government is, of course, concerned about anyone who is living in poverty. It is committed to tackling poverty and recognises the specific inequalities that apply to older people.

The Scottish Government has consistently called for the United Kingdom Government to provide additional support to assist people with the cost of living crisis. However, the chancellor has failed to deploy the full range of powers available to him to make a real difference to people’s lives.

The Scottish Government recognises the pressure on household budgets, which is why, last year and this, we have allocated almost £3 billion to support policies that tackle poverty and protect people as far as possible during the on-going cost of living crisis.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

I thank the minister for her answer and wish her well in her new role.

Too often, there is a misconception that older people are well off. However, the minister will know that the number of people in later life who are living in poverty in Scotland has risen by 25 per cent since 2012. Therefore, as well as looking at more immediate action to combat that rise in poverty, I ask the minister whether, in her new role, she will give serious consideration to the recommendation in the Independent Age report and the longstanding call by Age Scotland for the establishment of an older people’s commissioner for Scotland to properly amplify older people’s concerns, including that all-too-often-hidden problem of poverty in later life.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I absolutely appreciate the concerns that the member is raising, but we do not have plans at the moment to introduce legislation to establish an older people’s commissioner. There are existing commissions that protect the rights of older people: the Scottish Human Rights Commission and the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission. They already play a role in relation to the rights of older people in respect of age as a protected characteristic.

In addition, we continue to work closely with the older people’s strategic action forum on a range of priorities for advancing age equality. We are committed to promoting the rights of older people and ensuring that they benefit from all that we are doing to improve people’s lives. That is why we provide more than £2.2 million to support older people’s organisations, to tackle inequality and discrimination and support our aim of promoting the rights of older people.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

I welcome the minister to her place. As all MSPs are aware, the state pension is reserved to the UK Government. Under successive Labour, coalition and Tory Governments, the pension has been one of the lowest relative to wages in Europe. Does the minister know of any commitment by the Labour Party, which seeks to continue Westminster control of pensions, to significantly increase the state pension—the most effective way of reducing pensioner poverty—or is that just more Opposition grandstanding?

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I am not aware of any substantive proposals from the Labour Party that would reduce pensioner poverty, which was a major issue for older people even before the current cost of living crisis. As the member will know, the levers to reduce pensioner poverty, including control of the levels of the state pension and pension credit, lie with the Government at Whitehall. Only with the full powers of a normal independent country could we properly tackle that, but we will continue to call on the UK Government to ensure that all pensioners are encouraged to take up the benefits that they are entitled to, in full.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

One of the facts that is sometimes not taken into account in arguments around older citizens is the fact that they are often undertaking caring roles in our society for loved ones including grandchildren and great grandchildren. When, specifically, does the Scottish Government intend to deliver the national kinship care payment, which it has committed to, and the extension of the period of time for which carers allowance will be paid following the death of a cared-for person?

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

The member raises a very important point. I will ask the minister with specific responsibility for that portfolio to get in touch with him with a full response.

Local Services

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

8. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on how it will work with local authorities to ensure access to local services, including leisure facilities, for local communities. (S6O-02123)

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

The Scottish Government believes that everyone should have access to local services, particularly leisure facilities that help to support the physical and mental health of the nation.

We will work in partnership with local government to ensure that the people of Scotland continue to receive high-quality public services. We understand the challenging financial circumstances that local authorities are facing largely because of the cost of living crisis, so we have increased the resources that are available to local government by more than £793 million in 2023-24. It is, however, for locally elected representatives to make decisions on how best to deliver services in their communities.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The minister will be aware that Dundee has been without a local swimming pool since the Olympia shut down for repair in 2021. The facility was only opened in 2013 and yet taxpayers are now footing a £6 million repair bill. With so much disruption and money at stake, it is just common sense to hold an independent inquiry, so it is bizarre that the SNP-led council refuses to do that. Does the minister agree that Dundee residents deserve answers that only an independent inquiry can provide?

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

I am well aware of the circumstances in Dundee and the challenges that it is facing. The council is working hard to make sure that people continue to have access to swimming facilities and is particularly focusing on making sure that children can learn to swim using the network of swimming pools in Dundee schools and the leisure facility in Lochee.

On the point about scrutiny and an independent inquiry, the matter has rightly been scrutinised by the council’s scrutiny committee, which is led by opposition councillors. The convener of that committee is the leader of the Labour group and the two deputy conveners are the leaders of the Liberal Democrat group and the Conservative group. If we are talking about independent scrutiny, I cannot see how an opposition-led committee has not managed to do that.

That said, I absolutely get that people are frustrated and I am hopeful that it will not be too long before the Olympia reopens.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, minister. That concludes portfolio questions on social justice, housing and local government. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business to allow the front-bench teams to change position, should they so wish.

Deposit Return Scheme

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a statement by Lorna Slater on the deposit return scheme. The minister will take questions at the end of her statement, so there should be no interruptions or interventions.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I welcome this opportunity to update Parliament on the deposit return scheme following the First Minister’s statement earlier this week. Scotland’s deposit return scheme is an ambitious and transformational upgrade to Scotland’s recycling infrastructure. It has already seen hundreds of millions of pounds invested across the country and is creating hundreds of new green jobs in the recycling industry, with many more to come. It will reduce litter by one third, increase the recycling rate of single-use drinks containers to 90 per cent and cut CO2

emissions by 4 million tonnes over 25 years.

That is the kind of change that we need to see if we are to remain true to our commitment to tackle the climate emergency and to leverage private investment behind a green and circular economy. However, as the First Minister and I have said this week, we cannot deliver on this ambition without an exclusion from the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. With just four months to go, the UK Government has not issued that exclusion, which makes a delay to the scheme unavoidable.

We have also heard the concerns expressed by businesses, particularly small businesses, and we want to do more to support them. With that in mind, I will today set out the new timetable for Scotland’s DRS and provide an overview of a new package of measures to simplify the scheme and support businesses to participate, and I will finish with next steps on our engagement with the UK Government.

Significant progress has been made by businesses large and small in preparing for the scheme. Around £300 million of investment has been committed in systems, infrastructure and staff time, with many businesses fully prepared to launch the scheme.

The scheme administrator, Circularity Scotland, has developed the logistical network that will support the operation of the scheme, and ground has been broken on sites across Scotland, including sorting centres in Aberdeen and Motherwell that are creating up to 200 new green jobs. I am very grateful to everyone who has helped to make that happen. However, in recent months progress has stalled. Presiding Officer, the primary cause of that has been the uncertainty created by the continued failure by the United Kingdom Government to issue an IMA exclusion. [

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members, I said that there should be no interventions or interruptions. Minister, please continue.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Together with public briefings against the scheme from the Secretary of State for Scotland, the effect has been corrosive, undermining confidence, stalling progress and halting private investment. Some businesses have said that they will simply not join the scheme because of the UK Government’s position, and there has been extensive feedback from industry that they are not willing to proceed with investments until they have clarity.

This is an ambitious, major infrastructure scheme that affects thousands of businesses and everyone in Scotland. Readiness for August was always going to be challenging, particularly given the difficult conditions that the industry has faced in recent years, but the chilling effect of Westminster’s position has made it impossible. Scotland’s deposit return scheme will now go live on 1 March 2024. This gives the time needed for the UK Government to fulfil its duties, and it gives businesses a full 10 months from now to get ready for launch.

Earlier this week I met with representatives of producers and retailers to outline the new timetable. I acknowledge their constructive response and the suggestions that they have made to ensure that these 10 months are used to full effect, and I look forward to continuing to engage with them to ensure that we make the progress that we need to make. I have also asked partners in the scheme—CSL, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and Zero Waste Scotland—to work with my officials and with businesses to deal promptly with any remaining issues, to allow businesses to prepare.

Although Scotland’s DRS is an industry-led scheme, just as similar schemes are across the world, the Scottish Government has consistently worked in partnership with businesses to facilitate progress and ensure that a pragmatic approach is taken to implementing the scheme. That is why we are removing the obligation on the vast majority of online retailers to provide take-back services; it is why, earlier this year, CSL brought forward a £22 million package of support to improve cash flow for producers; and it is why we have listened carefully to the suggestions that small businesses, in particular, have made in recent weeks with a view to developing a package of measures that are fair and pragmatic and that support the overall aims of the scheme.

The key elements of that package are as follows. First, all drinks containers under 100ml will be completely excluded from the scheme. That will benefit businesses in the soft drinks, wine and spirits industries—the latter has raised particular concerns about miniatures—while removing just 0.2 per cent of articles from the scheme.

Secondly, products with low sales volumes will be excluded from the scheme. That change applies to any product that sells fewer than 5,000 items a year. That will apply to all businesses, so a large business that has a niche product line with low sales volume will not need to apply a deposit to that line and a small business that sells a low volume of products will not need to apply a deposit to any of their products. That change will remove only around 0.5 per cent of articles from the scheme but will remove the need for around 44 per cent of businesses to apply a deposit to their products, effectively removing many of the smallest producers from the scheme.

Thirdly, we plan to exempt all hospitality premises that sell the large majority of their drinks products for consumption on the premises from acting as a return point. Regulations already exempt premises that exclusively sell drinks on site, such as restaurants, pubs and nightclubs. However, many hospitality businesses also sell a small proportion of drinks to take away. Where that is the case, we agree that they need not operate as a return point, given that they will already be operating a closed-loop system for drinks on sale. We will engage with hospitality businesses on the proportion of sales to which that will apply, in order to ensure a balance between support for businesses and accessibility for customers.

In addition, in partnership with Zero Waste Scotland, we have simplified the online process for retailers to apply for an exemption from operating a return point, following feedback from businesses that have used the online application system.

I am aware of the concern that some businesses have around the size and complexity of the producer agreement with Circularity Scotland. To help with that, I have asked Circularity Scotland to develop a short-form producer agreement, which will help to reduce the burden on those businesses.

Throughout the process of developing the DRS, we have worked closely with officials in the UK Government. However, the UK Government has still to issue an internal market act exclusion, even though we first raised the need for one in 2021. We have followed the agreed process and have provided all the material that has been asked of us. I had expected to finally get a decision at the most recent meeting of the interministerial group, on Monday of this week. However, no decision was forthcoming and ministers were unable to provide a timeframe for one. [

Interruption

.]

Let me be clear: Scotland’s DRS is within the devolved competence—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Excuse me, minister. Could you resume your seat for a second?

I said at the outset that there should be no interventions or interruptions while the minister is speaking. There will be opportunities to ask questions after the minister has concluded her statement.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Let me be clear: Scotland’s DRS is within the devolved competence of the Scottish Government and Parliament. It is not for Westminster to undermine our democracy in the way that it is doing. Following my statement, we will write to the UK Government to inform it of the new timetable and support package and to request—once again—an urgent decision to allow the scheme to proceed as I have outlined.

I am confident that that will happen, because there is no reasonable justification for our request being refused. It is the right outcome for businesses, for Scotland and for the UK, which will benefit from our scheme leading the way. We remain committed to continuing to share lessons with the UK Government.

Alongside our work to obtain an IMA exclusion, we are working with the UK Government on issues related to trading standards, which are important for producers and retailers. Businesses need answers on those issues in short order. Again, I ask the UK Government to work with us, businesses and regulators to resolve those critical issues in a timely manner.

I and this Government are committed to Scotland’s deposit return scheme. That commitment is unwavering, because I believe in climate action. I believe in investing in green infrastructure and in creating the green jobs of the future, so I call on members across the chamber who share those values to put an end to their increasingly desperate attempts to undermine Scotland’s deposit return scheme.

Right now, it looks as though colleagues in the Labour and Tory parties have given up on recycling, on tackling the litter crisis, on the climate emergency and even on the authority of this Parliament to make decisions in devolved areas. That is what this comes down to. Scotland’s Parliament legislated to make deposit return happen and I, as a minister of the Scottish Government, am delivering on that democratic mandate—[

Interruption

.]—but a Tory Westminster Government that Scotland did not vote for appears to be using the post-Brexit powers that it gave itself to stop this vital scheme in its tracks.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I am sorry to interrupt again, but please resume your seat.

This is the third and last time that I will say this. The minister is making a statement. As is the common practice when ministers make statements, there are to be no interventions or interruptions.

Minister, please conclude.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Labour and the Tories might have given up on devolution, but we have not. I and this Scottish Government will work tirelessly to deliver on our mandate and to protect this Parliament’s right to work for the people of Scotland.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business. I ask those members who wish to ask a question to press their request-to-speak button now.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I thank the minister for advance sight of the statement. The only parties in the chamber that have given up on recycling are the Scottish National Party and its partners in the Greens, having not met the 2013 household recycling target that the Scottish Government set.

Today’s statement confirms the SNP-Green approach: constitutional grievance first and business second. The Scottish Government had been sitting on the scheme since 2009, before it finally got round to introducing regulations and setting a launch date of April 2021. Then we had a delay, then another delay and then, this week, with the minister having lost control of the scheme, the First Minister had to step in and announce yet another delay.

The minister will not be happy with that, having said that

“no one with any credibility”

would delay the scheme again and that it would be a

“kick in the teeth”

to industry.

The minister has made such an almighty mess of the scheme that she has now had to effectively rewrite it. Today’s changes should have been made months ago. Businesses cannot have confidence in a scheme that sees continual delays and massive changes at the last minute.

Let us be clear: this is not an industry-led scheme. The Scottish waste sector has been excluded, small businesses have been excluded from membership of the scheme administrator and, in any case, Donald McCalman of Circularity Scotland said today:

“We’re not running the scheme. I think that’s an important misconception to address.”

Can the minister provide a helpful answer? I am not interested in pre-scripted flimflam telling me information that I already know. Will registered producers be held liable for advanced months payments during this delay, yes or no?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I am sorry: due to the noise around me, I could not hear the question. Will the member repeat the last bit?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Before Mr Golden stands up to ask his question again, that question would have been heard if members on the front bench and in the other parts of the chamber that I am looking at directly had not heckled him while he was asking his question. That is perhaps a salutary lesson for everyone today: members must let the person who has the floor be the speaker at that particular time.

I call Douglas Lumsden. No, I call Maurice Golden. Even I am getting confused.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I am much younger than Douglas Lumsden.

My question was, will registered producers be held liable for advanced months payments during this delay, yes or no?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

The member asks an interesting question about the agreement between producers and Circularity Scotland, which is a contract that they have signed. The member may be reassured to hear that only the very largest producers are liable for costs under that contract.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

I thank the minister for advance notice of her statement, although I am deeply disappointed by its tone and content. I put on record that the First Minister’s response yesterday to my letter was merely a political attack, which the minister is, unfortunately, repeating today.

Businesses, the hospitality sector and recycling companies are stressed and have been highlighting their concerns for months. Being told by the minister, for the past few months, to go to a website has not cut it, especially when the information that they sought was not even there. Now that we have this inevitable delay, we need a grown-up approach from both the UK and Scottish Governments to ensure that we get a scheme that will not disadvantage Scottish businesses and consumers.

We at Scottish Labour are absolutely clear in our support for the principle of a DRS scheme. Such schemes have been successful in other countries and in the debate later today we will highlight our commitment to stronger action on the climate emergency. But, even now, there is no admission in the statement that the scheme has been wrongly designed. That is why we have been asking questions for months.

I want a response from the minister on the key issue of the implementation of the scheme. She has again said that responsibility for that has been given to the private company Circularity Scotland, which does not represent small businesses and has no accountability or parliamentary oversight. Circularity Scotland has already given the contract to Biffa, a company now owned by a US hedge fund, which will put jobs in local recycling companies at risk and will give Biffa a monopoly over the prices to be charged in future.

Will the minister now roll back on that? What remains a concern to businesses is the exact detail of how the scheme is to be implemented. Will the minister now commit to meeting those producers, members of the hospitality sector and recycling companies, who will still face major challenges even with the changes that she has announced today?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I continue to meet producers and members of the retail and hospitality sectors, and I am happy to meet recyclers as well. Engagement with industry and business has been a core part of how we have been delivering this. Indeed, after the First Minister’s statement on Tuesday, I held rapid meetings with producers, retailers and the non-governmental organisations in the sector that very afternoon. That is just a continuing example of the kind of engagement that we have had all along.

I will go through some of the timeline, because I think that it might be useful for the member to understand that. Since last year, we have developed considerable momentum towards what was intended to be the launch in August this year. That has included working with industry on its concerns with regard to the scheme.

The regulations that this Parliament passed were deliberately broad to allow industry to make those adjustments and decisions that were right for industry. The scheme is paid for by industry and delivered by industry. I suppose that this Parliament could have passed a scheme that would have been paid for by the taxpayer and controlled by Government, but that is not what it passed. However, within the scope of delivering the scheme, there are some key partners, which include the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament. We passed the regulations, SEPA enforces them, and industry’s job is to adhere to them. Circularity Scotland is a private not-for-profit business that has been created by industry to enable it to comply with the regulations as passed by this Parliament.

Throughout the process of delivering this project, industry has come back to me, as a representative of the Scottish Government, and said that it would like us to clarify, provide detail on and improve certain elements of the scheme, so we have done that. We clarified the process for streamlining exclusions. We got rid of online take-back for most people who would have been responsible—

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

We know.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Answer the questions.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members, please show some courtesy.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

We worked with

Circularity Scotland, which, in March, delivered £22 million-worth of cash-flow support. Today, I have announced significant adjustments to the delivery of the scheme that have been asked for by industry. Industry asked us to exclude miniatures. We have done so. Industry asked us to look at what could be done for small producers, and 44 per cent of them will now not be required to apply a deposit.

The member should be clear that I have systematically worked through and delivered on what industry has asked for. We now have 10 months before the new launch date, and I am looking forward to working with industry to get to that successfully. The businesses that I engaged with on Tuesday had some very constructive suggestions—I thank them for that—as to how we might work together to do that, and I will continue to do that work.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I point out that we need succinct questions and indeed answers, minister, in order to allow me to call as many members as possible in the time that we have available.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Presiding Officer, I am having difficulty hearing the minister. I think that time would be best spent on questions and answers. It has been taken up by a lot of noise from the Conservatives. [

Interruption

.] It takes up time.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Everything takes up time, Ms Hyslop. I will try to deal with that as best I can. Please continue.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Can the minister now suggest that SEPA and Circularity Scotland provide clarity on the scheme for small hospitality businesses—such as DreadnoughtRock in Bathgate, which I visited recently—that already recycle 100 per cent of their glass bottles, cans and other waste and use existing SEPA systems of recording such recycling? What consideration has been given to closed-loop hospitality venues that have difficulty in securely storing waste that is destined for recycling? The same company may be designated by Circularity Scotland to collect in the future, but currently it will do so only from the public main street, which will bring serious security issues in relation to what will be a valuable commodity.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

All scheme articles will bear a deposit, which hospitality businesses will have paid when they purchased the materials. Hospitality businesses can only redeem that deposit by ensuring that scheme articles are returned, so removing them from the scheme is not possible. The scheme will allow closed-loop hospitality businesses to have their material collected for free, saving them money while keeping up the high levels of recycling. I am aware that CSL continues to work with the hospitality industry to ensure smooth working of the scheme.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The minister was asked whether there might be liabilities arising and she confirmed that there will be. Can she, therefore, tell me what is the total liability, expressed as a figure, for registered producers and retailer contractual commitments for reverse vending machines resulting from this delay?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

That is a matter relating to the contractual agreement between Circularity Scotland and the producers. The member can be assured that only the very largest producers—those making more than 10 million units a year—are required to underwrite the cost. It is an agreement between a private company and their customers; it is not a matter for the Scottish Government.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

Prior to Brexit, which, of course, Scotland did not want, we had regulatory divergence, and this Parliament could be secure in legislating in devolved areas. The Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee has consistently raised concerns about the lack of transparency about the frameworks and the nature of the relationships between the Governments and how those are developing. The UK Government’s two-year delay with regard to its decision about exclusions to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 under the common frameworks can only leave us with the impression that it is trampling over the devolution settlement. Does the minister agree?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I share the member’s deep frustration. Let me be clear: this should not be how devolution works. I am deeply concerned about the broader implications of the UK Government using its powers under the 2020 act in that way to undermine the common frameworks and the devolved decisions that are taken by this Parliament, and I know that the Welsh Government is also concerned about that.

The common frameworks were meant to provide a means of resolving issues such as these, and my ask of the UK Government is clear. We need to follow the agreed, published process, engage constructively and agree an exclusion quickly. That is the best outcome not only for Scotland and Scottish businesses but for the UK as a whole.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

In February this year, the Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity claimed that there were 500 new jobs out for recruitment as part of the deposit return scheme, including 60 in Aberdeen, all of which would contribute to our just transition; and, in March, the minister announced that 664 businesses had registered with the scheme ahead of the August launch. Can the minister share what assessments the Scottish Government has made of the impact of the significant delay on those new jobs, and of the implications of the cost to those businesses and organisations that have already invested in changes to their operations as part of the scheme?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

The member is right to say that many businesses in Scotland have invested heavily towards the August launch date. That investment includes recruiting people, setting up information technology systems and getting ready to install reverse vending machines. The delay, which has been caused by the prevarication of the UK Government in relation to issuing an exemption from the 2020 act, which we asked for two years ago—I stress that we are weeks away from the when the scheme was meant to be launched—has been frustrating for me and for those businesses that have made that substantial investment.

Maurice Golden quoted me accurately earlier: I think that the delay on the part of the UK Government is a kick in the teeth for the businesses that have worked hard towards the launch of the scheme. However, the businesses can be assured that that investment is not lost. It will be valuable as we work towards our 1 March launch, because the Government is committed to the deposit return scheme and we will be working towards a successful launch in March next year.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

The minister mentioned trading standards. Could she expand on exactly what agreement she needs from trading standards? Does that include the question of how deposits will be displayed in the price, and is the UK Government being constructive in that regard?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

That is an important question that affects Scottish businesses and businesses across the UK as they implement their deposit return schemes.

Trading standards officers have indicated that their interpretation of the price marking legislation is that the deposit must be included in the price displayed for a product. We believe that that approach risks confusion for customers. We believe that it is important that it is clear that the deposit on products is refundable and, therefore, we believe that it should not be included in the price that is displayed but instead should be highlighted separately, as the deposit return regulations require. That is the approach of deposit return schemes in other countries.

Trading standards is a resolved policy area, so we cannot adjust the regulations ourselves. However, we have called on the UK Government to amend the relevant legislation, which does not explicitly cover deposit return schemes, to make it clear that the deposit price can be displayed separately. Scottish Government officials are working closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Welsh Government and the Department for Business and Trade to seek a consistent approach to deposit pricing across the UK, particularly as we believe that Westminster will want a similar approach to the one that we are proposing when it launches its own scheme.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

Circularity Scotland’s role is to deliver the scheme as per Government instruction. SEPA is the regulator of the scheme. However, despite the hundreds of questions that have been asked of the minister, we are still unclear as to her role. Will she take this opportunity to tell us what her responsibilities are, and will she finally commit to working with MSPs of all parties—who, incidentally, are supportive of a workable DRS scheme—ditch the positive squirming, and listen to affected industries when they raise legitimate concerns?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

As I went through in detail when Mercedes Villalba asked a question, I have engaged effectively with businesses—producers and retailers—and I have spoken with MSPs in the chamber. I have done extensive engagement. That is how we have made changes to the operation of the DRS, which we have done specifically to address what industry has asked for. I have given extensive detail—I am sure that the Presiding Officer does not want me to go through it again—of exactly all the ways in which we have listened to businesses to get ready for the launch.

Ten months are ahead of us before our launch date of 1 March. On Tuesday, I again had constructive engagement with retailers and producers as to how we are going to work together to become a really effective delivery body in order to launch the scheme successfully on 1 March—and I look forward to doing just that.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I note that the minister has recently met representatives of producers and retailers, which is good, but has she met the Resource Management Association Scotland, as I have? It represents 400 companies—small and medium-sized enterprises—that operate in waste management, with 6,690 employees. It has concerns, given that Biffa has a monopoly, that those businesses will be put out of work and that those jobs are at risk.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I met the RMAS some time ago, albeit not specifically on this matter. I share the member’s concern about the impact on existing recyclers and waste companies. My officials have been in discussion with CSL about that, and we are clear that we must harness the opportunities for existing recyclers within the DRS.

CSL has indicated that, as part of Biffa’s responsibility for building and operating an efficient and effective collections network, it is in active discussions with several existing waste collection companies to explore how those organisations can work with Biffa on the DRS. It remains keen to engage with other such companies and has a dedicated form on its website to allow firms to make contact and open discussions. I urge recycling and waste companies to do just that: to get in contact with Biffa.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

The minister’s statement was a remarkable exercise in blame shifting that was both ill advised and lacking in self-awareness. Over the past two years, I have spoken to many businesses, not one of which has mentioned the UK Government but all of which have criticised the Scottish Government’s approach.

The minister said that she has set out further changes today. She has insisted that the scheme is genuinely led by industry. Will she therefore confirm that she will be open to considering any other changes that small businesses in particular believe are still required?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I have engaged with businesses large and small and with trade associations, and the number 1 concern that businesses have raised with me is the uncertainty around the scheme—in particular, the uncertainty that has been created by the UK Government not issuing an internal market act exclusion. [

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Members!

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Specifically, businesses are asking why they should invest in a scheme that Alister Jack of the UK Government says he might veto—why should they put millions of pounds of their money on the line when the UK Government is creating such uncertainty? The businesses that I have spoken to have either paused their investment or told me that they are not willing to participate in the scheme until the UK Government gives them that clarity. We need that clarity first.

However, as I have outlined today, I have listened clearly to businesses at all stages. The simplification measures that I have announced are significant, particularly for small producers. That limit of 5,000 units applies to producers of all sizes but is of particular benefit for small producers that do not wish to have a deposit on their items. They could have a deposit on the items if they wanted to—they can still opt in—but the change means that 44 per cent of those smallest producers will not have a deposit on their articles. That is a significant support and exactly the kind of measure that small businesses have been asking for.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Across the country, I can see DRS facilities appearing in supermarkets, sorting centres being built and hundreds of jobs being created. With over 95 per cent of the market for cans and bottles already signed up, businesses and the minister should be congratulated on getting the UK’s first deposit return scheme so close to being launched. Given the huge private sector investment that has already been delivered in our communities, what has the reaction from those businesses been to the continued failure of the UK Government to grant an exemption from the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020? [

Interruption

.]