Scottish Parliament, 22 February 2023

357 contributions from 61 members. The official report.

Rural Affairs and Islands

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio question time. The first portfolio is rural affairs and islands. I remind members that questions 3 and 7 are grouped together, so I will take any supplementaries on those questions after both have been answered. If members wish to ask a supplementary on any of the other questions, I invite them to press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question.

I advise members that there is a considerable amount of interest in asking supplementaries; therefore, I make the usual plea for brief questions and answers. If they are not brief, I will be cutting you off, so be warned.

Proposed Agriculture Bill

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

1. To ask the Scottish Government when it will publish the final details of its proposed agriculture bill. (S6O-01900)

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

The Scottish Government is committed to introducing a new agriculture bill to Parliament in 2023. A public consultation on the bill, seeking views on proposals to assist in delivering the vision for agriculture and the legislative framework that is required to replace the current common agricultural policy from 2025-26 onwards, closed on 5 December. We are now carefully considering the diverse range of views that were provided and aim to publish those responses in the spring.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I note that information is both being gathered and emerging in stages, but what is important is that any scheme is sufficiently robust to give confidence to food producers. Will the conditionality measures that are proposed allow for that confidence to be maintained?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I know that our farmers and crofters want more of that detail and clarity. I made an announcement on 10 February about the publication of a route map, as well as the publication of a list of measures and where our thinking is currently at on measures for the new framework. I hope that that gives some of the confidence that the member is asking for, as well as additional clarity.

Although the route map does not yet answer all the questions that I know there are, it provides a clear set of programme dates to explain when current schemes will transition or end and when more information will become available. It also sets out the framework diagrams that were first published as part of the agriculture bill consultation, which outline what future support will look like. In particular, that is the base tier of support, which is aimed at providing financial certainty for farmers and crofters who are engaged in food production and are actively managing land.

As we transition to the future, I reiterate my previous commitments that there will be no cliff edges when it comes to support, and we will continue to develop the details of that future support with our farmers and crofters.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

In committee this morning, we heard from stakeholders from the agriculture sector who said that they do not want to go off the cliff edge—they used that term. Farmers want clarity and confidence in order to go forward with the new agricultural payment plan.

Although there is a route map, I believe that farmers want to have a seat at the table—they want to have engagement with the cabinet secretary and the Scottish Government. Will the cabinet secretary commit to doing that to give farmers the confidence to move forward with their plans?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

Absolutely; I am more than happy to do that. That is where the process that we are taking forward is really important. I know that people are desperate for more detail and more clarity, but, as I said in my first response, I hope that what we have published gives more of that information.

Fundamental to our whole approach is that co-development and co-design and the discussions with farmers and crofters. When we implement new measures, I absolutely want to ensure that we get them right, that they work and that they can be implemented well. I am more than happy to commit to that engagement.

Although we have the agricultural reform implementation and oversight board, which is key in helping us to design some of that, I know that there are other stakeholder groups that will want to get involved in the conversation. Of course, I am happy to get out and about and engage with farmers and crofters directly.

Connectivity (Islands)

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the rural affairs secretary has had with ministerial colleagues and councils regarding improving connectivity for Scotland’s islands. (S6O-01901)

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

As the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and Islands, I am responsible for ensuring cross-government co-ordination on islands, and I regularly engage with my ministerial and local authority colleagues. A key forum for those discussions is the islands strategic group, which brings together ministers and the leaders and chief executives of the island local authorities.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The cabinet secretary will be well aware of the Orkney Islands ferry task force, and, as the islands minister, I hope that she is involved with that. What can she say to provide reassurance that that will not be yet another talking shop and that it will lead to tangible results

—that is, to new ferries?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

The member will be aware that the Deputy First Minister is involved in that task force. I do not think that anybody would want that to be a talking shop; we all want it to lead to action. Therefore, I do not think that it is fair to write that off at the moment. The task force met on 31 January. I am, of course, happy to take up the matter with the Deputy First Minister and to provide a further update on that work.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I have a number of requests to ask supplementaries. They will have to be brief, as will the answers.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

Yet again, we have ferry chaos in the Western Isles. The relief ferry that is serving South Uist and Barra has technical issues, so it can sail only in daylight. Even with stretching daylight hours, that places a huge restriction on its operation. As I mentioned, we are talking about a relief ferry, but Uist is already facing disruption due to the Uig pier closures. What is the cabinet secretary doing to mitigate the impacts of the ferry chaos on islanders who cannot plan, work and socialise without—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call the cabinet secretary.

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I absolutely recognise how critical those links are. I am sure that the member will already have raised the point with the Minister for Transport, but I am more than happy to do that on her behalf and to come back with a response on her specific queries.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

We heard from island councils in a recent Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee meeting that Transport Scotland engages with councils only on its own pre-determined agenda, which has not included fixed-link or tunnel connections for islands to date. Some of the councils want to seriously engage on the potential of those measures. Will the cabinet secretary discuss with her ministerial colleagues how they might ensure Transport Scotland’s full and proper engagement on initial assessments of what might be possible?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I am

more than happy to engage with my ministerial colleagues on that. I believe that Transport Scotland engaged with local authorities on the subject of fixed links as part of the second strategic transport projects review—STPR2—and that all local authorities have responded to the consultation that accompanied that draft publication in January last year. However, I am more than happy to take that up with my colleagues and to follow up on the matter.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Tunnels would greatly improve economic and social connectivity in Shetland and they would not be subject to closure due to adverse weather conditions. When will the Scottish Government sit down with local action groups, councillors and officials to seriously consider feasibility studies for short tunnels in Shetland?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

Again, I am more than happy to raise that point with the Minister for Transport to see how any discussion on that could be progressed and I will follow up on the matter with the member.

Deposit Return Scheme (Drink Industry Supply Chain)

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the rural affairs secretary has had with ministerial colleagues regarding the potential impact on the drink industry supply chain of the introduction of the deposit return scheme. (S6O-01902)

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I have kept ministerial colleagues updated with developments during the implementation process. Most recently, earlier this month, I sent a letter to all MSPs that provided a comprehensive update ahead of the launch of the United Kingdom’s first deposit return scheme. I will continue to keep Parliament up to date as we head towards the go-live date in August.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I ask Sharon Dowey to adjust her microphone slightly before she comes back in.

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

I have spoken to rural businesses, which have raised concerns about the 24 substantial steps that are required to register for the deposit return scheme. The first step requires businesses to sign up to a three-year legal commitment, which will significantly change their operations and could even bankrupt them. If businesses fail to sign up by next week, they risk no longer being able to sell in Scotland, which could significantly impact the rural supply chain. Will the minister engage with those businesses to limit the impact on the rural supply chain and ask her Cabinet colleagues to listen to and address those concerns?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I am taking very seriously the concerns that small producers have raised, as the member will note from the significant intervention for all producers, with a focus on small producers’ needs, that was announced on Tuesday—an increase in cash flow and simplification of labelling for small quantities.

Tomorrow, I will meet small producers again to see what else we can put on the table to help them to comply with the legislation. I would encourage all producers to begin their registration process with Circularity Scotland by the deadline of the end of this month.

Deposit Return Scheme (Impact on Small-scale Drinks Producers)

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the rural affairs secretary has had with ministerial colleagues regarding the potential impact of the deposit return scheme on small-scale drinks producers. (S6O-01906)

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

As I confirmed in my response to Sharon Dowey, I have kept ministerial colleagues updated with developments during the implementation process. The letter that I sent to all MSPs earlier this month details measures that we have put in place to support businesses, including small producers. I will continue to listen to the concerns of small producers and to hear whether there is any further action we can take to support them ahead of the scheme going live.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

As part of that listening exercise, the minister could listen to this. Philip Sisson runs Simple Things Fermentations, a small craft brewery in Glasgow. He has written to me today and would like me to say this to the minister:

“DRS will have a catastrophic impact on my business and the craft sector. We survived the pandemic by producing quality products and offering excellent service, but that won’t be enough to get us through the chaotic implementation of a badly flawed DRS”.

He further says:

“small producers are being thrown under the bus”.

Is he wrong?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I met small producers a week ago on Friday, when we discussed their concerns in great detail, including their specific concerns around cash flow for their businesses and the costs around labelling of small quantities.

On Tuesday, Circularity Scotland announced an intervention of £22-million worth of support for the cash flow of small businesses and a solution for labelling, specifically to support craft brewers, small wine importers and craft beer producers. That is a significant intervention to support those businesses, and I look forward to meeting them again tomorrow to find out whether there is anything further that we can do to support them to participate in the scheme.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

There are a number of supplementaries. I make the same appeal for brief questions and answers.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I must agree with Jamie Greene. I have been written to by Traquair House Brewery in my constituency. Famous for its craft brews, it has been operating since 1965. It has a global reputation and exports around the world. All of its materials are sourced locally, and the malt is even put into a cattle feed. It

tells me that, if nothing else is done, the deposit return scheme will have a devastating effect on its business in all respects. I hear what the minister said, but—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question, please, Ms Grahame.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

—will the minister please listen to the small craft breweries?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I take the considerations and concerns of small businesses very seriously. That is why I met them a week ago Friday, and why this week we have put in place a significant intervention. Circularity Scotland has announced £22 million of cash-flow support and a specific response to the concerns around labelling. Those were the issues that were raised with me by small business, and those are the solutions that have been put in place

by Circularity Scotland. I will meet those businesses again tomorrow to take forward any further concerns.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

The minister will know that a Scotland-wide tender was issued to American hedge fund-owned Biffa to provide collections under the deposit return scheme. What assessment has the minister made of the impact on the small and medium-sized businesses in rural communities that are excluded from that decision, and which in some cases will lose existing contracts for recycling collections?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Circularity Scotland is a private business and therefore its procurement processes are for it to decide. It is not a Government procurement process and Circularity Scotland may conduct procurement as it wishes to do. [

Interruption

.]

When the deposit return scheme comes online, the amount of glass and other recyclates in the system that is collected and cleaned for recycling will increase enormously. Kerbside recycling and other systems will still deal with non-scheme articles. Pasta jars, shampoo bottles and all such materials will still be part of the standard recycling scheme. [

Interruption

.] The deposit return scheme specifically increases the volume and the quality of recyclate of scheme materials, which will increase our overall recycling in Scotland.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Lumsden, no more heckling from a sedentary position, please.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Can the minister outline the discussions that the Scottish Government and drinks producers have had? Will those discussions continue, particularly with small businesses, to ensure that the roll-out is a success?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

As briefly as possible, minister.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

As I have outlined to other colleagues, I am taking a pragmatic approach on the implementation of the DRS. I regularly meet industry stakeholders, including drinks producers, to get direct feedback on the scheme and to identify challenges and solutions. As a result of industry feedback, particularly from small businesses such as craft breweries, Circularity Scotland has announced a £22-million package of support for those producers.

I will continue to engage with businesses. Indeed, tomorrow I will meet small drinks producers again to discuss their readiness for launch.

Outdoor Education Centres

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

4. To ask the Scottish Government, in relation to its cross-government co-ordination on islands policies, what discussions the rural affairs secretary has had with ministerial colleagues regarding any impact on rural and island communities of the closure of outdoor education centres. (S6O-01903)

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

Ministers and officials across portfolios are aware of and consider the important role that outdoor centres have in rural and island communities. Outdoor centres can provide educational experiences, create employment and volunteering opportunities and support connections into the wider rural economy. Such considerations were a key element of decisions to provide £4 million in tailored emergency financial support to outdoor education centres during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

It is welcome news that the Arran Outdoor Education Centre has been saved from possible closure by North Ayrshire Council’s Scottish National Party administration. Does the cabinet secretary agree that it is important to provide long-term guarantees regarding the retention of such facilities and that the staff, parents and young people, who strongly value such unique resources, deserve to know that, each year, they will not have to worry about potential closure?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I know that this will have been a concerning time and that, as the member says, those decisions are taken annually. It is not for Scottish ministers to intervene in local authority spending decisions. Councils are autonomous, and it is their responsibility to agree their annual budgets, taking into account their statutory duties as well as other national and local priorities. Of course, they are accountable to the public who elect them, and they have the financial freedom to operate independently while taking account of local need. However, I would encourage North Ayrshire Council to consider staff and service users in the decisions that it makes, as I am sure that it does at the moment.

Inshore Fisheries

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

5. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the steps that it is taking to improve the management of inshore fisheries, in light of the reported increasing pressures on fishers and fish stocks in Scotland’s coastal regions. (S6O-01904)

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

Scotland’s fisheries management strategy sets out the Scottish Government approach to sustainable and responsible sea fisheries management in Scotland. A delivery plan was published in September last year, setting out how and when we will deliver the range of actions in the strategy. There is a clear signal on front-loading actions that will deliver enhanced environmental benefits and significant improvements to our fisheries management approach, including inshore fisheries. The plan contains a mix of actions from the strategy, alongside the commitments in the Bute house agreement. Those will all be delivered in partnership with our stakeholders.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

It is heartening to note the commitment to place the fisheries management and conservation group—FMAC—on a more strategic footing. Given the importance of the inshore region for livelihoods and biodiversity, what plans does the Scottish Government have to develop ecosystem-based inshore fisheries management plans, including spatial or temporal management measures, to help to achieve our legal duty of managing our seas to good environmental status? What are the timescales for that work?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

The member has rightly outlined our legal obligations as set out in the joint fisheries statement, and the types of approaches that are set out in that. In our response and in that document, we have committed to an overarching strategy across the United Kingdom that we can all sign up to. That provides us with flexibility and recognises the devolved responsibilities in each of the areas.

The fisheries management strategy that I talked about is critical in relation to that, as are a number of pieces of work that we are currently taking forward. The member talked about the refresh of FMAC that has been undertaken. We have also been looking at the role of our regional inshore fisheries groups, as well as doing a number of pieces of work on our future catching policy. We have had a consultation on remote electronic monitoring technology, as well as looking at other measures in relation to inshore fisheries. I hope that that offers some assurance about the work that we are taking forward, which ultimately will meet our objectives.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I will not get in all the members who have requested supplementary questions, but I will get in as many as I can.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

Does the cabinet secretary agree with her Green coalition partner Ariane Burgess that fish stocks around Shetland are “in rapid decline” as a result of

“destructive methods of inshore fishing”,

or does the cabinet secretary instead agree with the Shetland Fishermen’s Association’s well-evidenced response that her comments are ignorant of the fact that

“Shetland’s inshore waters still teem with the same fish and shellfish stocks that have helped sustain our community for generations”,

as a result of sustainable fishing practice?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

Sustainable

fishing practices are exactly what we want to see. A key part of my role is going out and about visiting our islands and speaking to fishers and farmers. I know that people greatly care about the environment in which they operate. In my initial response to Gillian Mackay, I outlined the work that we are taking forward, why it is so important and the objectives that were set out in the joint fisheries statement. We are legally obliged to adhere to those, which is why the measures that we are proposing are so important.

In all the work that we are taking forward, it is critical that we engage with our fishers and other stakeholders. It is in all our best interests to ensure that we have a healthy marine environment with healthy fish stocks so that, in future, we have fishers and a fishing industry to provide that valuable food source for us.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

The Government has already committed to introducing legislation to make remote electronic monitoring mandatory on scallop dredge and pelagic vessels. Does the cabinet secretary agree that, during a period in which there are likely to be changes in how we interact with the marine environment, we must ensure that fishers are recognised for the valuable role that they play?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I could not agree more with Alasdair Allan’s point. We recognise the vital role that fishing plays in our economy and how many jobs it supports in our coastal communities. It also contributes to Scotland’s hugely successful food and drink sector. Quality Scottish seafood is prized right around the world, and we will continue to do all that we can to support the industry.

Avian Flu

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

6. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on avian flu in Scotland. (S6O-01905)

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

In Scotland, since the start of October last year, there have been 21 confirmed cases of highly pathogenic avian influenza H5N1 in poultry and captive birds and 107 findings in wild birds.

We continue to monitor the number of cases in poultry and wild birds. The latest evidence suggests that we are beginning to see a decrease in the rate of cases across Great Britain. In response to the decrease, we have adjusted the reporting thresholds for surveillance of wild birds to support the on-going monitoring of the level of the disease that is circulating in wild species.

Alexander Burnett (Conservative, Aberdeenshire West)

We now know that avian flu can be transferred to seals, after four Scottish seal carcases tested positive for the virus earlier this month. One of those seals was found dead in Aberdeenshire in 2021. Will the cabinet secretary confirm when she first learned about the transfer of avian flu to seals and outline what action she has taken to mitigate the impact of that?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

The first point that I want to make is that the risk to human health from the virus is low. Food Standards Scotland advises that avian influenza poses a very low food safety risk to people who consume poultry products, including eggs.

In relation to what the member said about cases in other mammals, in samples that were taken last year as part of routine wildlife surveillance, the presence of avian influenza was detected in four otters and four seals from Scotland, as well as in five red foxes from England and Wales. Those animals were found in areas with a high incidence of H5N1 in wild bird populations, and scavenging on wild birds is thought to have been the source of infection. However, the detection of the virus does not mean that the virus caused the deaths of the animals.

We know that wild birds and animals can carry several diseases that can be transmitted to people, so people should not touch or pick up dead or visibly sick birds. I know that the issue is of concern, but the risk that we are associating with it is still considered to be extremely low, so I offer assurances on that front.

Our chief veterinary officer and our animal health teams are working flat out on the issue. They are continuing their surveillance to see what action, if any, can be taken to try to stop the spread of the virus.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I ask for very brief supplementary questions.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

When will the response plan for wild birds be published? Will it contain tangible measures for protecting and conserving wild birds, and on carcase collection, during the HPAI outbreak?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

The response plan is still under development, but I am happy to follow up with Ariane Burgess and provide, I hope, a more indicative timescale.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

In the light of avian flu being discovered in Stirling last week, will the cabinet secretary briefly outline the biosecurity steps that people can take to reduce the spread of the disease?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I doubt that you will be able to outline them briefly, cabinet secretary, but please do so as briefly as possible.

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

It is really important to highlight and remember that biosecurity measures are critical and offer the best protection against the spread of the disease. Such measures include cleaning and disinfecting clothes, footwear and equipment; reducing the movement of people and vehicles; and preventing contact with wild birds. Those are just some of the measures that people can take. It is really important that people take biosecurity seriously.

Independent Food and Drink Businesses (Rural Areas)

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what it is doing to support local, independent food and drink businesses in rural areas. (S6O-01907)

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

We are providing a broad range of measures to support local, independent food and drink businesses in rural areas.

That includes £15 million of funding towards the Scotland food and drink recovery plan from 2020 to 2023; £17.5 million over the past two years for businesses across Scotland through the food processing, marketing and co-operation grant scheme; and £500,000 towards the Scottish Grocers Federation’s go local programme, which we know has helped many independent convenience operators in rural areas to transform their stores and to stock more locally sourced produce.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

That will all be for nought if the Government does not sort out the deposit return scheme. Ultimately, what small producers and retailers want is the simplification of stock keeping unit—SKU—registration and bar codes, an opt-in possibility and the removal of the arbitrary hard deadline that is coming up.

Has the cabinet secretary had a formal meeting with Lorna Slater to discuss those options? If so, when?

Mairi Gougeon (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

I have of course discussed those matters with my ministerial colleagues, given their impact and the nature of the responsibilities in my portfolio. In the responses that the minister has given to previous questions, she has already outlined some of the really important measures that have been introduced.

The minister has engaged with a wide variety of businesses that the DRS has impacted and is taking their concerns on board; a

debate covering the issue is taking place this afternoon.

The minister is listening and taking action.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio questions on rural affairs and islands.

Health and Social Care

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The next item of business is portfolio questions on health and social care. I remind members that questions 1 and 3 are grouped. I will take supplementaries on those questions after both have been answered. Anyone seeking to ask a supplementary question on any other question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question.

As

there is considerable interest in asking supplementaries, I make the same appeal as I made previously for members to keep their questions brief if they are invited to ask a question

and for the ministerial team to keep answers brief as well.

Student Nurses

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to increase the number of student nurses. (S6O-01908)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The Scottish Government has increased nursing student numbers every year for the past 10 years. However, we know that the undergraduate programme is not the only solution for increasing the number of nurses in our national health service and other sectors, which is why we are working with partners to widen access to those vital nursing programmes.

We now have an education and development framework for NHS bands 2 to 4 healthcare support workers, which will allow them to develop within the scope of their role to support the registered workforce and, importantly, to achieve progression in their job family.

At the same time, we are exploring how to expand options for our healthcare support workers to continue to enter programmes on an earn-as-you-learn basis as well as access programmes for undergraduate nursing degrees.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service—UCAS—has reported that applications to study nursing in Scotland were down 24 per cent this year, with just over 5,000 applicants. There are more than 4,500 vacancies in nursing and, importantly, more than 2,500 nurses have left the profession in the 12 months to September 2022.

The Scottish Government’s announcement of a minister-led nursing task force is welcome, but any recommendations from it are a long way off. It is clear that student nursing numbers in Scotland are in crisis. What immediate action is the cabinet secretary taking to reverse that trend?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank Sue Webber for her really important question. She is right to say that the level of vacancies is not where we would want it to be—to put it mildly—which is why the nursing and midwifery task force, which came out of a discussion with the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives and other trade union partners, is exceptionally important.

Notwithstanding the point that Sue Webber has correctly made about the numbers being 24 per cent down, I ask Sue Webber to remember that recruitment into nursing programmes will continue until June, so we expect that number to increase as we get towards June.

Given the need for brevity, I will update Ms Webber in writing on how we are doing in relation to international recruitment.

Let me make it clear that there is a real opportunity for the nursing and midwifery task force to widen entry into nursing. The good work that we are doing on pay will help to retain nurses, too, and will make the exit door out of nursing very narrow indeed.

Nursing (Number of Student Applicants)

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to ensure that the number of applicants applying to study nursing in Scotland does not drop further in the future, in light of Universities and Colleges Admissions Service data reportedly showing that the number of applicants has fallen by 24 per cent compared to the same point last year. (S6O-01910)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I will be relatively brief, because I answered some of that question in my previous response. I hope that Colin Beattie will be reassured that higher education institutes continue to recruit to the programmes until June, so we would always expect there to be an increase between the figures that are released in January and the figures that are released in June.

Not all funded places are applied for via UCAS—something that Colin Beattie will undoubtedly know. For example, Open University funded places and applications for those will also contribute to final student numbers.

Lastly, the pay offer that we have put on the table for 2023-24 will ensure that our nurses, as well as other NHS agenda for change staff, remain the best paid in the entire United Kingdom. That is a great draw to get those individuals working in the NHS.

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

It is important to ensure that we have provision for the future nursing workforce in our health service and that we encourage applicants to study nursing in Scotland. With that in mind, Scotland has seen a 5 per cent increase in acceptance of nursing and midwifery places since 2019. Will the cabinet secretary outline the steps that are being taken to encourage applicants, and will he confirm that we are recruiting at the level that the country needs?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I thank

Colin Beattie

for that question. I reiterate what I said to Sue Webber: the level of vacancies is not what we want to see, and we want to reduce that level as much as we possibly can. Our nurses make up the largest profession in our NHS, and I am proud that we have increased our funded nursing places for 10 consecutive years, but we are now very actively working on the widening access to nursing programme.

I go back to the point that I made in answer to the previous question, that the nursing task force recommendations might take some time to implement. Actually, we are looking for some really quick wins. I think that we can make some quick wins to widen access to the profession, and I will keep members who are interested updated on the work of the task force.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

There are a number of supplementary questions. Those questions and the responses will need to be brief.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

The 24 per cent reduction in the number of people applying to study nursing is the biggest drop in applicants for nursing in any part of the UK and the lowest figure at any point in the past five years. With 6,300 nursing vacancies in Scotland, the reductions in the numbers applying will add to the workforce crisis. Others have asked what the cabinet secretary intends to do to boost recruitment. Let me focus on the short term. Will the cabinet secretary bring forward a retention strategy to stop nurses leaving in droves because they feel exhausted and burnt out?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Jackie Baillie makes a reasonable point about the retention side of things. That is precisely why we set up the nursing and midwifery task force. It is there to look at, for example, flexible working. How many nurses have Jackie Baillie and I spoken to who have said that they feel that the NHS is simply not flexible if they want to change their shift patterns? The task force will look at, for example, what more we can do on and around retention. That will be a key focus.

Instead of setting up the strategy, the right way round to do it is to engage with the Royal College of Nursing, trade unions and employers, engage with the staff—hear from them directly their suggestions for what they want to see—and try to get some quick wins. [

Interruption

.] I do not think that there is much between us. I cannot quite hear Jackie Baillie as she shouts from a sedentary position, but—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please ignore the sedentary comments.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I am happy to pick that up with her after the meeting.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

The Royal College of Nursing exposes the crisis in nursing by underscoring the significant risk to patient care, with nine in 10 nurses—almost 86 per cent—reporting that their last shift was unsafe for them and the care of their patients. We cannot afford the nursing task force being a talking shop. As I am likely addressing our new First Minister, will he please outline—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Ask the question, please.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

—how he will improve safety for patients and nurses?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I might not put that endorsement on my leaflet, but I thank the member for the comment. I say to Sandesh Gulhane that what would definitely not help us is the approach that the UK Government has taken, which is to not meaningfully engage with nurses, who then go on strike and feel that they are devalued. We are taking a different approach. We are engaging meaningfully with our nurses, we have avoided dispute, we have avoided strikes, and here we are ensuring that they are—that they remain—the best paid nurses anywhere in the UK.

We will continue to engage with our nurses. The task force will not be a talking shop. I am surprised that the member described the RCN as a talking shop. It will be an integral member of the nursing and midwifery task force, and it has welcomed it—[

Interruption

.] In fact, the nursing and midwifery task force idea—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Cabinet secretary—

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

—came from the RCN, and I am delighted to be a part of it.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Cabinet secretary, I asked for brief responses.

Paul McLennan has a brief supplementary question.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

Does the cabinet secretary agree that the UK Government should match the £10,000 non-means-tested bursary that students in Scotland get, to attract students from across the UK to the sector?

Does he agree that, if the UK Government were to match the pay deal that has been offered to nurses in Scotland, it would need to increase pay by 14 per cent? [

Interruption

.]

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I do not know why the Conservatives are moaning about that. They ask about recruitment and retention, and that is fundamental.

I agree that other Governments should look to what we are doing to ensure that nurses do not start their working lives in debt. With our pay offer, an experienced nurse in Scotland will earn £37,664 compared to £32,934 in England, which is a 14 per cent difference.

We should not only reward nurses as best we possibly can, but ensure that those who are training to be nurses get all the support that we can possibly give them.

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

2. I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests, as I am a member of the GMB and Unite trade unions.

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to trade unions and charities forming a “coalition of concern” to request that the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill is paused to allow further co-design and consultation. (S6O-01909)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I declare an interest as a member of Unison.

We remain committed to the bill. People with direct experience of social care and community healthcare have repeatedly told us that the system needs to change. We must end the postcode lottery and drive up standards across Scotland. I welcome the engagement that trade unions and charities have had to date, and I strongly encourage the third sector, councils, the workforce, charities, unions and other people to engage in the co-design process.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

The response from civic society in Scotland is catastrophic. It is not engagement that we need, but a minister and a Government that will listen. The list includes the Scottish Trades Union Congress, Unite, GMB, Unison, Who Cares? Scotland, Parkinson’s UK, Common Weal and even the Scottish National Party Trade Union Group. It cannot be ignored. We now have candidates for First Minister saying that the bill should be paused.

What work is happening around Government tables to listen, learn from other bills and pause this?

In terms of valuing the workforce, a 40p pay rise is an insult. What will be done to deliver a credible pay rise of at least £15 an hour for our hard-working care workers?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We are committed to delivering the national care service bill by the end of this parliamentary session. I continue to listen—and I wish that folk would listen to others who may not share their views. Earlier, just before coming into the chamber, I met the dementia lived experience panel. Those people want to see the end of the postcode lottery of care. Those folk want to see national high-quality standards, and they want to see the national care service.

T

he national care service

will allow us to ensure that there is sectoral bargaining over pay and conditions, which will be the case for the first time. Of the people who responded to the consultation, 72 per cent wanted a national care service, and we will deliver that.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I will take a brief supplementary question from Audrey Nicoll.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

It is important to recognise the urgent need to make improvements to social care now and not to wait for the NCS to start that process. With that in mind, will the minister provide an update on the action that is being taken now to address challenges in social care?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Very briefly, minister.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We are taking action now to address challenges in social care. Our manifesto commitment was to increase social care funding by at least £840 million over the parliamentary session, and we are on course to substantially exceed that. Yesterday’s budget set out £1.1 billion in adult social care support from the health portfolio. The 2023-24 budget has increased social care spending by more than £800 million compared to 2021-22. That is working in the here and now to improve social care in Scotland.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

My apologies to those members whose questions I was not able to take.

Patient Support

David Torrance (Scottish National Party, Kirkcaldy)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to address the “waiting well” agenda, in light of the recent round-table event on supporting patients that was hosted by Scotland Versus Arthritis. (S6O-01911)

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

The Scottish Government’s preventative and proactive care—PPC—programme is developing a waiting well framework and associated delivery action plan. That will help to improve health and wellbeing outcomes for people waiting for health and social care interventions. A steering group has been set up to steer that work, with the first meeting having taken place on 21 February 2023.

David Torrance (Scottish National Party, Kirkcaldy)

Scotland Versus Arthritis’s six-part support package for people who are waiting for joint replacement surgery suggests that the key elements of support are communication; personalised self-management support; access to physical activity programmes; mental health support; signposting to financial support and advice; and including waiting well support in the national health service recovery plan. Does the Scottish Government agree with that approach? To what extent are NHS boards being assessed on their delivery of support for patients?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

The Versus Arthritis support package was tested by the Golden Jubilee national hospital around orthopaedic pathways. Following that, a proposal was submitted to the centre for sustainable delivery and our planned care improvement programme, which is now being considered as part of the waiting well workstream within the preventative and proactive care programme. Versus Arthritis is a member of the waiting well steering group, and the improvement areas that it has highlighted, such as communication, will be taken forward as part of that workstream. That will include monitoring of how waiting well is implemented.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

On the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care’s watch, we are facing a waiting times crisis. There are stories of people having to fundraise for private surgery, rather than wait in pain. Where is the Scottish Government’s urgency on treatment options and treatment centres? How will the health secretary ensure that people have access to meaningful waiting plans that are influenced by a waiting well strategy that is supported by the third sector?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

Yet again, my Labour colleague has not mentioned or acknowledged the global pandemic that this country and the whole of the western world have come through. According to him, that has had no impact whatsoever.

To increase capacity and improve the situation for people who are waiting for surgery, we are investing in national treatment services, four of which will open very soon.

Accident and Emergency Department Waiting Times (NHS Fife)

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to eliminate long waits in accident and emergency departments within NHS Fife. (S6O-01912)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The national health service has experienced one of the toughest winters in its history. This winter, pandemic backlogs, Brexit-driven staff shortages and increased levels of respiratory viruses all coalesced to place significant demand on services. Performance against the four-hour target is clearly not where we want it to be or where the public would expect it to be. Nevertheless, performance has recovered since that really challenging period in the winter peak.

We are now working with NHS Fife to reduce A and E waits through our £50 million collaborative programme. We are focusing on three key areas for NHS Fife: the rapid triage unit for general practitioner referrals, which has now opened; increased use of the discharge lounge, to speed up the discharge process, which we know is so vital for the flow through the hospital; and reducing the length of stay and the number of boarders.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that answer, but progress is too slow.

Scottish Conservative colleagues recently met a group of constituents whose loved ones received appalling treatment in Fife. One of those constituents is Trish Nolan. Her husband John, who is suffering from terminal bladder cancer, was left on a trolley in accident and emergency for more than four hours. No nurses or clinicians came to check on him or gave him any pain relief. John came very close to dying of sepsis that day.

Will the cabinet secretary apologise to John Nolan for his A and E treatment? Will he, at the very least, agree to meet families who have lost loved ones due to the failure of Fife health services?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I take the opportunity to apologise to anyone—including the Nolan family—who has received an unacceptable level of treatment. As health secretary, that is not what I want to see. I am pleased that Roz McCall and other members raise such cases in the chamber. As Roz McCall would imagine, I regularly meet families who have not had a good service in the health service, and I never hesitate to apologise if they have not received the service that I would expect, let alone the service that they would expect.

We are seeing some improvements in NHS Fife. I do not know whether Mr Nolan’s experience was during the winter peak, which I mentioned in my initial response, but NHS eight-hour waits are almost 75 per cent lower, and 12-hour waits are almost 100 per cent lower, than they were in the week ending 1 January, which was the epicentre of the winter peak.

I am seeing shoots of improvement, but we still need to make more progress. Of course, I will be happy to continue to meet families who have not had the service that we would expect them to have in the NHS.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can fit a couple of supplementaries in, but they will need to be very brief, as will the responses.

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

This week, I met health unions in Fife and they are clear that a key factor in the problems that they have is the rise in the size of waiting lists for social care. Does the cabinet secretary recognise that? Does he recognise that poor pay, terms and conditions are key factors in that, and that therefore, rather than wasting £1.4 billion setting up a centralised bureaucracy, will he put money in now—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Cabinet secretary.

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

—to pay care workers the rate for the job?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call the cabinet secretary.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Alex Rowley raises a really important point and I will give him, I hope, some comfort by letting him know that the statistics that came out in December 2022 show that Fife recorded 118 delays. That is still far higher than Alex Rowley and I would like to see, but it is a decrease from the 131 of the previous month, so we are seeing some level of progress.

We will continue to invest in social care, and there have been a number of pay rises for social care staff. In the next financial year—2023-24—we are not spending £1.5 billion on the national care service; it would be incorrect to say that. On the amount of money that we will be spending on the national care service in 2023-24, we may well look to see how we can rebalance some of that into current spend, but it will be nowhere near the magnitude that Alex Rowley said. I will look to work with—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Briefly, Willie Rennie—

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

—to see what more we can do to support it.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The Royal College of Emergency Medicine Scotland has been quite clear that long waits in A and E can result in deaths and harm, as Roz McCall has just highlighted. Has the cabinet secretary done an assessment of the impact in Fife of those long waits? In the last week of January, 360

people waited for over four hours, and 50 waited for over eight hours. Has he done an assessment—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Cabinet secretary.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I do not disagree with the premise of Willie Rennie’s question. I know that the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has raised the issue. The excessively long waits in our A and E departments mean that patients will come to harm. That is why we are focused on reducing them.

I mentioned not-insignificant reductions in 12-hour and eight-hour waits in Fife. That is where our focus is and our targets are. I agree with Alex Rowley: we must focus relentlessly on social care, to get discharges out of hospital and help the flow through hospital.

We are still seeing the challenges that we know that social care faces. People are still presenting with higher acuity. I will continue to work with the sector to try to find solutions—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question 6 comes from Neil Bibby.

Prostate Cancer Diagnoses

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking in light of January’s Prostate Cancer UK data on regional inequalities in prostate cancer diagnoses. (S6O-01913)

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

We have noted the Prostate Cancer UK research and we are discussing it with clinical expert groups across NHS Scotland, including the national cancer recovery group. Prostate Cancer UK will host a meeting in the coming weeks with officials and primary and secondary care clinicians in NHS Scotland to further analyse the data and explore how best to support earlier diagnosis efforts for prostate cancer.

We recognise that staging prostate cancer is often complex, but when we compare survival rates, which is of course the most crucial measure for any patient, we see that Scotland’s five-year survival rate for prostate cancer is 84.3 per cent and in fact is not significantly different from the rate in other United Kingdom nations.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Tragically, Scotland has the worst figures for prostate cancer diagnosis in the United Kingdom. More than one in three Scottish men with prostate cancer are diagnosed too late for a cure; that figure is just one in eight in the south-east of England. What is more, the west of Scotland performs particularly poorly in terms of prostate cancer waiting times. NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde significantly underperforms other health boards on treatment standards.

The Government previously assured us that it was investigating those figures. What has been the outcome of the Government’s investigation? What is the minister doing to end the shocking postcode lottery on prostate cancer diagnosis and—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister.

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I would urge some caution and, I hope, offer some reassurance to people who might understandably be concerned about the matter. It is worth noting that the report itself highlights the risk of overdiagnosis, which is when there is a diagnosis of a cancer that the person would not otherwise have been aware of and would not have died from.

The use of tests such as the prostate-specific antigen test, which is used more in the rest of the United Kingdom, increases the risk of that.

As I said, ultimately, the most crucial measure is that of survival, and the rate for that is similar across the UK. I hope that that offers some reassurance to the public.

Breastfeeding

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the recommendations in the 2023 series on breastfeeding by

The Lancet

, which include calls for Governments to provide more accurate and timely information about breastfeeding and infant behaviours, an end to any exploitative marketing used by the baby formula milk industry, and more recognition of any economic contribution that breastfeeding makes to society. (S6O-01914)

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

We welcome the 2023 series on breastfeeding in

The Lancet

, and will consider its recommendations in due course.

The Scottish Government is committed to supporting breastfeeding as the normal nutrition for babies. We have provided more than £7 million of additional funding over the past four years to national health service boards and partners to improve breastfeeding experiences.

Globally, it is recognised that breast milk and breastfeeding provide clear health benefits to both mother and baby over infant milk formula. We believe that every child should get the best nutritional start in life and that families should be able to make fully informed choices on how they feed their baby.

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

Part of ensuring that breastfeeding rates increase involves normalising it in our public spaces, which is what the breastfeeding friendly Scotland scheme aims to achieve, as well as providing staff and volunteers with key training and knowledge.

After I raised awareness of the scheme and signed up my constituency office in Renfrew, take-up of the scheme in Renfrewshire increased massively, from one venue to more than 60.

How is the Government working with health boards to track national take-up of the scheme? How will it work to improve involvement in areas with low take-up? What steps will it take next to ensure that normalising and increasing support for breastfeeding remains as high a priority as possible?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please answer as briefly as possible, minister.

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I thank and commend the member for the work that she has done to promote the breastfeeding friendly Scotland scheme. We continue to encourage our infant feeding advisers to promote that scheme, and more than 2,000 venues have signed up.

We know that protecting, supporting and promoting breastfeeding requires a complex, multilevel approach, and the series in

The Lancet

sets out recommendations on ways in which focused action can have an impact at population level, including through regulation of the marketing of infant formula.

We will continue to prioritise investment in breastfeeding support and embed the UNICEF UK baby friendly initiative across health board settings.

Healthcare Provision (Barra and Vatersay)

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

8. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on NHS Western Isles’ recruitment of a new permanent general practitioner and hospital doctor for the islands of Barra and Vatersay. (S6O-01915)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I understand that NHS Western Isles will be going out to recruitment this spring.

As the member will know, NHS Western Isles had to take on the Barra medical practice at short notice and its priority has been a smooth transition and the provision of a level of continuity for patients.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

As the cabinet secretary is aware, our health service is under a huge amount of pressure, and the long-term use of locums, as has been the case in Barra for some time, is not ideal. Connected to that matter, can the cabinet secretary confirm when the Scottish Government will take a decision on the healthcare outline business case to allow the proposal for a new home for health and other services in Barra to move to stage 2?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The Barra and Vatersay campus project is important. The outline business case has been reviewed by the national health service capital investment group, which is considering options at the moment. In the interests of brevity, I will write to the member further on the issue. I will look to see what I can do to speed up the process but, as I know that the member understands, appropriate consideration must be given to the matter.

Deposit Return Scheme

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-07975, in the name of Maurice Golden, on launching a successful deposit return scheme.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

We all want to see deposit return succeed, and we know that it can. Look at the success that countries such as Latvia, where 93 per cent of the population regularly use a deposit return scheme, have had.

Improving recycling and reducing litter are goals that we all share, especially now that the Scottish Government’s recycling efforts have stalled. Its 2013 recycling target has still not been met, which is ironic given that it first committed to deposit return in the same year. Despite having 10 years to prepare, it has left it to the last minute.

I know about that, having spent the past decade working in the waste sector or here in Parliament calling on the Government to plan ahead by doing things such as creating a level playing field for small businesses, developing a reverse vending machine procurement framework, ensuring no council job losses and constructing a plastic recycling plan so that we retain collected materials in our economy. The Government has done none of that, so it finds itself in the middle of an almighty mess of its own creation.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Does Maurice Golden read any significance into the fact that the minister who is responsible for this unfolding disaster is sitting very much alone on the front bench? She has no colleagues there to support her; no one is even sitting in the row behind her.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

That is striking and telling, because it is not only the minister’s fault. She has been in post since 2021, but the Scottish Government did next to nothing in the preceding years to launch a deposit return scheme.

The latest gateway review concluded that

“a fully functioning and compliant DRS cannot be in operation for the revised August 2023 schedule”.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Unfortunately, I must correct the record for the member on that. The latest gateway review—the one that was completed in October last year—stated that it is feasible to deliver DRS by August this year. The member is quoting the gateway review from May last year, which is not the latest review.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

That is incorrect. I am quoting from the latest published review, which is from December last year. In my view, that is the latest review.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Will the member take an intervention?

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I need to make progress, but I will come back to the minister.

The Scottish Government has already had to postpone and scale back the online take-back policy, but it is determined to rush the scheme through regardless. I recognise that there have been attempts to address problems. We have had confirmation on labelling, and the removal of day 1 charges for retained United Kingdom barcodes and month 1 charges for all products. We have also had measures to reduce the administrative burden and help smaller producers with cash flow.

We all welcome that, but where is the support for small retailers and hospitality? They have up-front costs, such as those for reverse vending machines, and added costs could see hefty price increases on stock orders. They face being out of pocket, with handling fees not covering their costs, despite the recent increase.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

The retail handling fees that will be offered in Scotland for manual return points are significantly higher than those anywhere else in Europe and are towards the high end of schemes elsewhere in Europe. Our scheme is comparable with and, in fact, more generous than similar schemes in Europe.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I guess that we will find out in court, because the Scottish Grocers Federation is taking Circularity Scotland to court over handling fees. That is where we will find out whether the fees are fair.

That is before we get to other challenges, such as container storage and insurance cover. It is incredible that retailers still do not have an operational blueprint, which forces them to take a best guess at how to spend around £250 million to be compliant. Meanwhile, wholesalers are waiting on solutions for stock and bonded warehouses and how the scheme will define an importer. Consumers face higher costs and reduced choice. One brewer estimates that the cost that will be passed on to shoppers could be as much as 40p per container, and the Scottish Wholesale Association warns that as much as 40 per cent of brands could disappear from Scotland.

Let us not forget local authorities. Falkirk Council will stop collecting glass altogether, and other councils are considering reducing collections. We could see job losses, financial hits and poorer recycling services—that is hardly the expected outcome from a scheme that was designed to benefit our environment and communities.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Will the member take an intervention?

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I need to make progress.

There are still significant outstanding issues for producers. For example, the missing guidance on glass tolerances that will allow them enough time to introduce new accounting and invoicing processes and to address the UK’s barcode surcharge that will cost disproportionately more for Scottish producers.

Then there is the producer agreement itself. Producers are being rushed to sign up to a scheme without knowing the full details or costs, and if they do not sign up, they cannot sell their products; it is a lose-lose scenario. When confronted with those problems, the Scottish Government hides behind the pretence that the scheme is industry led.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Will the member take an intervention?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The member is in his last minute.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Nothing could be further from the truth. This is a Government-run scheme, fronted by a secretive company that was put in place without a competitive or transparent process. The Scottish

Government has so far refused to issue a section 5 order to allow freedom of information requests to be made to Circularity Scotland. It is a dereliction of duty that raises questions about procurement practices and dodgy dealings.

I have spoken with dozens of businesses and trade bodies, and they all want deposit return to succeed, but their good will is being eroded by a poorly planned process, and we need practical solutions such as an immediate review to consider how we can launch the scheme successfully. That could be done by extending producer registration until full costs are provided; granting small producers a grace period before joining; taking a phased approach to the introduction of the scheme; reviewing procurement processes so that small waste management companies are allowed to compete for collection contracts; helping retailers by boosting the handling fee; providing TUPE—Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations—cover for local authority and waste management staff who face redundancy; taking Circularity Scotland into special measures; and planning ahead with a business case for a digital system to future proof the scheme.

The DRS has been rolled out in a manner that will destroy businesses—particularly small businesses—jobs and livelihoods. If the Scottish Government is willing, we can rescue deposit return. I urge it to do so before we pass the point of no return.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that a Deposit Return Scheme (DRS) can make a positive contribution to increasing the rate of recycling and reducing litter for drinks containers; recognises that the Scottish Government has been committed to introducing a DRS since 2013; welcomes the widespread support that the scheme’s environmental objectives have received from businesses, and recognises their concerns over key operational elements of the scheme; understands that businesses, and waste management experts have called for at least 18 months’ notice prior to the scheme launch, and that, with less than six months until the proposed launch, information is still required by stakeholders to both ensure compliance and maximise the operational success of the scheme; notes the findings of the Gateway Review Final Report, which stated that “…a fully functioning and compliant DRS cannot be in operation for the revised August 2023 schedule”, and calls for an urgent independent review of the launch date to enable a successful launch as soon as practically possible.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the debate. There were so many inaccuracies and so much misinformation in that opening speech that I scarcely know where to start, but I will start at the beginning and, hopefully, systematically correct the record and provide some useful information for members.

In May 2020, three years ago, the Scottish Parliament agreed the Deposit and Return Scheme for Scotland Regulations 2020, which establish the approach and structure of Scotland’s DRS. The case for the scheme remains just as strong now as it was then. It will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 4 million tonnes over 25 years; reduce litter by a third, cutting the £46 million of public money—that is local authority money—that is spent cleaning up litter every year; drive an increase in recycling rates from 50 per cent to 90 per cent of scheme materials; and increase the quality and value of that recycling, which will move us towards a more circular economy. In the context of the current climate emergency, Scotland needs a deposit return scheme now.

In line with the polluter pays principle, and just like similar schemes around the world, Scotland’s deposit return scheme is being delivered and funded by industry. It is led by the scheme administrator, Circularity Scotland.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I want to be constructive. Circularity Scotland Ltd—CSL—issued a contract for waste management collections to Biffa, which is owned by an American hedge fund. No small or medium-sized enterprise in Scotland was invited to tender for that procurement. Will the minister consider releasing the details of that procurement and explain to SMEs throughout Scotland why an American hedge fund is more important than them when they face financial ruin as a result of that procurement process?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I am surprised to hear that a Conservative member thinks that FOI requests and that kind of scrutiny would be appropriate for private businesses, but I am sure that some of my Green colleagues would be interested if that is a new position that the Conservatives wish to put forward.

CSL is now at an advanced stage—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I think that we need to hear the person who has the floor, which, in this instance, is the minister. Please resume, minister.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Thank you.

CSL is now at an advanced stage of building the infrastructure and logistics network that will underpin the scheme. Sites have been secured across Scotland to handle and process material. Counting equipment and vehicle fleets are arriving.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

The minister said at the outset of her remarks that there is a problem with information, yet what we have heard so far from her has been the case for DRS, which is not in dispute, and nothing to give us clarity. Is the inherent problem not with CSL itself? What will she do to tackle that, given that CSL is so central to her policy?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

CSL—and I will further enlighten the member

on the details as we go forward—is at an advanced stage of building the infrastructure. That is happening. Recruitment is under way to create 500 new jobs in Scotland in processing and logistics. That is the work that CSL is doing.

Just as importantly, CSL is working closely with businesses of all sizes to prepare for the launch in August this year and I am in no doubt that those preparations are well under way in the boardrooms, on the bottling lines and in the local supermarkets and small grocers.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Will the minister take an intervention?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I will take one more and then I must make progress.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I am grateful.

Several small producers have publicly said that they are going to go out of business thanks to the proposed deposit return scheme. Is the minister telling them that they are wrong?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I take the concerns of small producers seriously. That is why we had an urgent meeting the Friday before last.

This week, Circulatory Scotland has announced the launch of a package of measures to address those concerns—£22 million to support cash flow for producers and some practical solutions on labelling, which is what they asked for and we have delivered. I will meet them again tomorrow to see whether there are any further ways in which we can help them. I am afraid that I must make some progress now.

As I have set out, I have been systematically working through industry concerns with the industry, Circularity Scotland and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency to ensure that pragmatic approaches to implementation are in place.

For example, we heard concerns about the interoperability of the scheme with other schemes in the United Kingdom. As a result, CSL has confirmed that there are no Scotland-specific labelling requirements, and producers can retain existing and UK barcodes. We are working closely with other Administrations to maximise interoperability when DRS is finally introduced in other parts of the UK.

We heard concerns that small retailers faced barriers to applying for an exemption from acting as a return point. As a result, we streamlined our exemptions guidance and application process last November—a move that was widely welcomed by businesses. That means that there is already a mechanism in place for many small retailers to be exempt from acting as a return point, if they wish to be, while maintaining a scheme that is accessible to all.

We heard concerns about costs to producers, particularly around cash flow for smaller producers. As a result, CSL has reduced its producer fees by up to 40 per cent and reduced its day 1 payments for producers using UK-wide barcodes by two thirds.

We heard concerns from online retailers and producers about the online take-back obligations. As a result, I confirmed last year that I proposed to phase in online take-back from 2025, while still protecting those unable to get to a physical return point.

We heard concerns on planning needs, domestic rates, local authority collections, VAT on deposits and operational information. We have listed and acted on each and every one of those concerns.

In the past two weeks, I have continued to meet representatives across sectors that are affected by DRS to understand their on-going concerns. For that reason, I greatly welcome Circularity Scotland’s announcement yesterday that it would provide a further—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I gave a wee bit of latitude to the opening speaker because three interventions were taken. You have also taken three interventions; you will get the same latitude. You have 30 seconds left. Thank you.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Thank you.

Circulatory Scotland will not only fund cash-flow measures but remove day 1 and month 1 charges for all producers.

To turn to the findings of recent gateway review reports, a gateway review is a short, focused review that is carried out at key points. In the case of this project, there have been four gateway review stages, which is normal for a programme of this importance and complexity. I am concerned to see quotes from the superseded May 2022 report being used in isolation, including in today’s motion. It is the October—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, please conclude now and move your amendment to the motion.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

It is the October review report that is the most up to date and the most relevant.

That report concluded that

“the DRS Programme has gained increased momentum and is in a much-improved position”

and that go-live is now feasible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, you need to conclude and move your amendment now, please.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

I move amendment S6M-07975.2, to leave out from “Scottish Government” to end and insert:

“Deposit and Return Scheme for Scotland Regulations 2020, which establish the approach and structure of Scotland’s DRS, were agreed by the Parliament in May 2020; welcomes the recent progress made by Circularity Scotland, SEPA, the Scottish Government and the UK Government in finalising the key operational elements of the scheme; further welcomes the package of measures recently announced by Circularity Scotland to support producers; notes that the most recent review in October 2022 concluded that the DRS Programme has gained increased momentum and is in a much improved position; understands that Scotland’s DRS will make an important contribution to cutting climate emissions, and calls on the Scottish Government to continue to take a pragmatic approach to implementation, working with industry to identify and address concerns.”

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

Labour supports the introduction of a viable deposit return scheme—a view that is shared by the overwhelming number of producers, suppliers and retailers that, ultimately, will have to implement any proposals. An effective scheme would reduce our waste and our carbon emissions at a time when Scotland is failing to meet its climate commitments and is falling behind on recycling.

As a producer responsibility scheme, it will ensure that producers pay for the clean-up of their products. We know that successful schemes are already up and running in 50 countries and territories across the world and that those schemes are likely to cover three quarters of a billion people by 2026. There is no question but that a successful deposit return scheme would make a positive contribution in our journey to net zero.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I am surprised, given that Labour accepts the huge environmental benefits of a deposit return scheme, that members of the party signed a letter during recess claiming that there will not be any environmental benefits from the scheme. Which one is it: are there environmental benefits, from Labour’s perspective, or not?

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

Our support for such a scheme cannot and will not blind us to the genuine concerns about the Government’s proposals as they currently stand, which Mark Ruskell does not seem to be interested in. It will not stop us from seeking to improve those proposals. Perhaps Mark Ruskell can think about and listen to some of our proposals.

We welcome recent changes by the Government in relation to online take-back, exemptions, reduced producer fees—although those still remain higher than for other European schemes—and the announcement from Circularity Scotland, coincidentally on the eve of the debate, of some funding to partly address the cash-flow concerns of businesses. Those changes are a step forward, but we do not just need the minister to meet producers tomorrow, as she said that she will do; we need her to listen to their concerns and take more action. There remain a number of issues with the scheme as it is currently proposed that need to be addressed.

Let us be clear: those concerns are not just about big business lobbying. They are primarily the concerns of small businesses, in my region and others, that are simply trying to survive. That includes the small gin distillery in Galloway that I recently visited. It has one stock keeping unit with one bottle design, but it will now need to order twice as many bottles with every order because of minimum order levels, although it has simply nowhere to store them. In the same way, the local shop that I spoke to at the weekend has nowhere to store glass bottle returns.

The small cider brewer that I visited in Dumfriesshire is close to the border and he made the valid point that consumers will have less choice, as his fellow brewers only a few miles away on the other side of the border will stop trading in Scotland. Christine Grahame highlighted the case of the brewery in the Borders that told her that the 20p deposit is, in effect, a 20p price rise for its customers, as many of them are visitors who come from just a few miles away in England and will not be returning that product.

If we want to talk about the role of big business, when I raised with the minister concerns about the decision to issue a Scotland-wide tenure to Biffa, which is owned by an American hedge fund, she dismissed the concerns of the Scottish small and medium-sized businesses that were excluded from being able to take part in the contract, many of which already provide collection services. Those businesses were not even consulted on that approach. That is not a just transition.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Does the member share my concerns about the tender process? When the original tender was issued, it was for 2 billion containers per year. However, one week later, Circularity Scotland changed that to 3 billion containers a year, which led many waste management companies to tell me that that was a “reputational risk” and that they would not apply for the bid. Circularity Scotland and the Scottish Government also excluded SMEs from bidding for the process.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I will give Mr Smyth a maximum of an extra 40 seconds.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

I share those concerns, including that

small and medium-sized businesses

were not able to participate in the tender process and that many will cease to be in business as a result.

We want to work with the Government to make the changes that are needed so that the scheme that is delivered is successful and supports small businesses, because that would be a genuine jobs-first just transition. That is why Labour’s amendment asks the Government to, at the very least, consider further changes ahead of the introduction of the scheme, including a grace period of 18 months for small producers, during which their products would be treated as non-scheme articles.

We have failed to give those small businesses the information that they needed for a fair lead-in time, and they should not be punished for the incompetence of Circularity Scotland and others. We should consider an opt-in rather than an opt-out option for small retailers, and exemptions for low-volume producers.

I appreciate that I am running out of time, so I will make a final point. Many other concerns have been raised, including the decision to include glass without the inclusion of a smelt target, which raises fears that much of the glass collected could end up in road aggregate and not be recycled, and the failure to provide a full operational blueprint to businesses at least six months in advance of the launch of the scheme.

Labour’s amendment proposes common-sense changes that would address some of those concerns and allow a scheme to go ahead but be phased in to minimise the impact for small businesses. That is crucial. If the Government is serious about a genuine just transition—a jobs-first just transition—I hope that it will support that and work with us to make the scheme work.

I move amendment S6M-07975.1, to insert at end:

“; acknowledges that an effective modern deposit return scheme reduces carbon emissions and waste; welcomes the changes that have been made to the proposals since the regulations were first made; recognises that concerns from some businesses, in particular small producers and retailers, remain over operational elements of the scheme, and urges the Scottish Government to consider further changes ahead of any introduction, including a grace period for small producers, exemptions for low volume producers, and an opt-in for small retailers to ensure delivery of a viable Deposit Return Scheme that helps meet Scotland’s net zero ambitions.”

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I thank Maurice Golden for allowing Parliament to have this debate, and I congratulate him on flushing out a return of around £22 million from Circularity Scotland, aimed at addressing at least some of the serious concerns that have been raised over many months by smaller producers around Scotland, including in my Orkney constituency.

With regard to the cost and cash-flow pressures that are faced by small brewers, distillers and so on, that additional support is undoubtedly welcome. Sadly, and more important, as one industry representative put it to me yesterday,

“it doesn’t address the complexities of the scheme nor does it provide sufficient clarity to help businesses to prepare in time for the scheme going live in less than six months.”

Therein lies both the problem and the case for an independent review.

I applaud the efforts of Colin Smyth in his amendment to set out further improvements that could make a difference in addressing those remaining concerns. Those improvements are sensible and should be taken on board. However, there is now a very real risk that the minister and CSL will stumble on, week after week, amending, exempting and whittling away at their scheme. Why not pause, gather the evidence about what needs to be done and provide the clarity that is needed to make the scheme one of which Scotland can rightly be proud?

Right now, the Government and the minister seem determined to press on whatever the cost to business, whatever the confusion for consumers and whatever the damage to support for the DRS itself. I understand absolutely the imperative to reduce waste, emissions and litter, and I recognise the urgency, too. However, we need to get this right and we are nowhere close to that position right now.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Will the member give way?

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I will not.

Previously, I have made the point that the Scottish Liberal Democrats were the first party to have a manifesto commitment to introduce a DRS, but the truth is that it has long been an issue that has commanded strong cross-party support, as evidenced by the debate so far.

Like other party spokespeople, in the previous parliamentary session, I regularly met the then environment secretary, Roseanna Cunningham, to discuss the details of the Government’s scheme. At that time, like others, I expressed concern about the inclusion of, for example, glass, reflecting what I had seen at first hand in Norway, where the scheme has been operating successfully for years.

Despite promises to learn from such international examples, the Government sought instead to go further and faster than the rest of the UK as an end in itself. That is perhaps justifiable in some policy areas, but, in the case of DRS, it actually sowed the seeds of many of the problems that we are seeing now.

For months, I have been working with local stakeholders in Orkney, trying to get answers to the questions that they have about how the scheme will work in practice, particularly in a more challenging island setting. I am very grateful to Circularity Scotland and to Zero Waste Scotland for their engagement in various round tables and for the time committed to follow-up meetings. However, the fact is that too many questions remain unanswered, too much uncertainty hangs over the operation of the scheme and there is too much at stake if the Government gets it wrong.

I urge the Government to pause, commission an urgent independent review and pave the way to making DRS a success here in Scotland, as we have seen it be in countries around the world.

I support the motion and the amendment in the name of Colin Smyth.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We move to the open debate. I advise members that we have no time in hand and that any interventions must be absorbed in the member’s time.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the debate, albeit that I lament the need for the Scottish Conservatives to use their time to highlight the increasing disquiet that the industry is feeling around the proposed introduction of

the Scottish Government’s deposit return scheme, much of which has been ably highlighted by my colleague Maurice Golden.

Let us be clear, Deputy Presiding Officer, that this policy is essential to our net zero target, and that its premise is universally accepted in this Parliament and the UK Parliament, across industry and by the public. However, the minister claims that this is an industry-led scheme. Really? Maurice Golden and I have spoken with literally hundreds of producers and suppliers over the months and we have yet to meet one that is leading the scheme. The consistent message is that we have a Scottish Government minister who will not listen or engage and who is blind to the serious concerns that are being raised across the whole industry.

Many producers and retailers have significant issue with the way in which the scheme is being introduced, as it will have a specific effect on their viability. For example, I visited a fairly small but successful distillery that produces 5,000 bottles of whisky a year. Those are mainly for export, but it must carry a stock of 2 million bottles, because that is the minimum cost-effective run that a bottle producer will deliver. As a result, the distillery carries a four-year bottle supply. It has put aside £60,000 to pay the fines that it will need for using old stock, as doing so will cost less than ordering new stock once the scheme goes live. That is not an isolated case, and I note the case that Jamie Greene raised during portfolio questions earlier.

It is incredible that the minister in charge of delivering the scheme answers so many direct questions with the response: “I don’t know the answer to that”. For example, I asked the minister about Circularity Scotland’s obligations to the banks on paying back its loans for the scheme and the potential impact of that on the timetable for its implementation. She said that she did not know and that she felt that she did not need to know.

I looked up Circularity Scotland on the Companies House website and saw that the Bank of Scotland has a floating charge over the property or undertaking of that company. That matters, and it might go some way towards explaining why the Scottish Government is committed—or potentially forced, come hell or high water—to an August launch, irrespective of the impact on producers, retailers and hospitality owners.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

In some ways, it is understandable that the minister might not know the answers, as the lack of information is a problem of Circularity Scotland’s. Does the member agree that the minister needs to get a grip of that organisation and get it to do its job properly?

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

Absolutely, because there is a risk in the arrangement for those businesses that are investing in Circularity Scotland. Should Circularity Scotland fail, the suppliers and the investors would lose their money. Given the level of support for a deposit return scheme

across the chamber and within industry, this legislation should have been a cakewalk for the Scottish Government. All that it had to do was to look at how similar schemes have been successfully implemented, talk with the industry, listen to its concerns, keep it close and ensure that it is part of the solution.

However, that has not been the case and the calamitous result is what happens when those in the Scottish Government who are charged with delivering the scheme have no business acumen whatsoever. It is not too late to pause and then deliver a more cohesive and effective scheme. I urge the Scottish Government and the minister to heed industry’s concerns and have a rethink. Not to do so would have a devastating impact on the economic viability of many businesses and ensure that, in the end, it will be consumers who pay.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

The deposit return scheme is an important policy in Scotland’s drive to reduce carbon emissions, and the Scottish Government’s plans are ambitious, bold and necessary. There has been a shift from outright opposition to the DRS by some to acknowledgement and acceptance. However, I am concerned about how we have a successful launch and roll-out. I appeal to the minister on the need for her to be practical and pragmatic. Smaller businesses are facing unprecedented cost pressures from all directions, and we must be sensitive to that.

Some say that the scheme has been rushed, but I remind members that, in May 2019, Roseanna Cunningham, the then Cabinet Secretary for the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform, made the statement in the Scottish Parliament that a deposit return scheme would be introduced in Scotland. It is worth repeating that a scheme, once it is introduced, will reduce littering by a third, increase recycling rates of single-use drinks containers from the current rate of around 50 per cent to 90 per cent and see a reduction of 4 million tonnes of carbon emissions over 25 years.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

The member makes reference to littering. On the basis that few pubs are a source of litter in the environment, is that not a reason to remove them from the scheme entirely? The people at the pubs that I go to do not tend to leave with bottles or cans.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

I think that, if the member had read the letter that Lorna Slater wrote to all MSPs, he would have seen it set out that pubs that use containers only within their premises would not be part of the scheme. I suggest that he reads the letter that was sent to us all by the minister.

Deposit return schemes have proven to be extremely successful around the world, by raising recycling rates, reducing litter and saving carbon emissions. According to Zero Waste Scotland research, more than 70 per cent of the Scottish public supports the introduction of a DRS. Slovakia introduced its own deposit return scheme in 2022. Officials there say that they are already seeing an uptick of more than 10 per cent in recycling after introducing a scheme such as the one that is proposed by the Scottish Government.

Larger companies will have had the capacity to trial a deposit return scheme in a number of their stores. Last September, I was pleased to visit Aldi in Bathgate in my constituency, which had already trialled acceptance of bottles and cans in exchange for vouchers for the business. I understand that Aldi has used feedback from customers who have used the scheme to inform its plans as it prepares for the nationwide roll-out.

Experience and learning must be shared with smaller businesses in order to ensure a timely, successful launch of a Scotland-wide scheme. With just six months to go, however, it is the smaller businesses—both retailers and drinks producers—that have genuine concerns, such as the issue that Colin Smyth raised about storage, and they need to be addressed.

The reduction in producer fees of up to 40 per cent and the two-thirds reduction in day 1 payments for producers are welcome, but small businesses—particularly retail businesses—might require on-going support. The announcement by the scheme administrator, Circularity Scotland, of a £22-million fund to support small businesses with the costs of participating in the scheme will make a big difference.

Businesses need to have clarity on how VAT will be applied to deposits. The UK Government needs to respond to resolve that issue, to minimise risk to the Scottish scheme, which it was requested to do some time ago in relation to cross-border sales.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Will the member take an intervention?

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Very briefly.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Well, no, actually, in that you have 24 seconds left.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

[

Inaudible

].

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

Perhaps the minister can put it in her summing up.

The further resolutions that have been set out in the minister’s letter to MSPs have addressed many of the points that Maurice Golden and others have raised.

I would encourage the Government, in its understandable drive to deliver, to continue to be prepared, with the support of the Parliament, to have the space to be pragmatic and flexible so that it can meet the needs of smaller producers and retailers and deliver a welcome and needed deposit return scheme for Scotland.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

A successful deposit return scheme should be an important part of Scotland’s drive to reduce carbon emissions and deliver the shift to net zero. International examples demonstrate what can be achieved. However, with only six months to go till the proposed launch, it is clear that we are still some way from a workable scheme.

I recently joined with cross-party MSPs to write to the First Minister about the scheme, highlighting the review team findings that the scheme could not be made to work by August and pointing to the concerns that we are hearing from businesses.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Will the member take an intervention?

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

If it is regarding the report on the review, we quoted the one that was in the public domain, which is what the MSPs had to work on. I am very short of time, so I will continue.

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

[

Inaudible

].

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I do not think that the member has taken your intervention. Ms Baker, are you taking an intervention?

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

No. I think that the minister was about to explain to me about the review team. The report that we used was in the public domain, and I think that it is reasonable that that is what the letter was based on.

It is not enough to insist that the scheme will be a success by force of will; a lot of work is required to make it so. It is not clear at this stage how the scheme will work in practice for small producers, suppliers, retailers, hospitality and consumers.

The scheme was first proposed by the Scottish Government in 2019. It was planned to come into force last July, but it was pushed back by more than a year, following feedback from industry. Although there have been some tweaks since—for example, on online takeback, reduced producer fees and exemptions—they do not go far enough to provide confidence to producers and suppliers.

I can see where effort is being made to simplify the system, and I note the removal of the registration fee for smaller producers. However, the Scottish Government must recognise that, for many producers, particularly as they face increased energy costs and a cost of doing business crisis, the costs of the scheme will still be prohibitive. Those concerns have been raised by the Society of Independent Brewers.

What will be the impact on small craft breweries who produce for outlets across the UK? Will they continue to sell in Scotland, or will the costs make them less likely to do so? Will smaller, boutique off-licences still be able to secure the same range of products? Those producers also face the additional costs of either changing labelling and barcoding for the Scottish market or being charged an extra payment over those that introduce new barcodes. Can the minister advise whether the stickering solution that is being developed for small producers will be cost free and whether it is only available for Scottish producers?

There are questions for smaller retailers to do with the administration of return points and handling costs. Although I welcome the fact that some retailers can apply for exemption on the basis of proximity or environmental health, more information is needed on how those with premises that do not meet those requirements but where space is limited can meet their obligations as necessary. Small producers, retailers and hospitality businesses are desperate for clarity and feel passed between the Government and Circularity Scotland.

Ministers need to show leadership by ensuring that Circularity Scotland addresses shortcomings, but the Government needs to accept responsibility for the lack of information and guidance. It is important to remember the context of the policy—it lies within not just the wider climate change agenda but the cost of living crisis, and we must be aware that any increase in costs for consumers at this point will be keenly felt by many. I realise that, under the model, the additional costs will be returned but, for too many families and individuals, any additional outlay in a week can push them into further difficulty.

Households need to know how the scheme will work when it comes to storing and organising to return containers, alongside existing collections and arrangements for waste and recycling. I also have concerns about how the scheme will work for everyone, including those whose lives are unpredictable, people who move addresses or those who have other reasons for being less likely to participate.

There are also questions about how the scheme will work for hospitality businesses, and particularly those that sell drinks for consumption on the premises and elsewhere. I do not feel that the minister’s letter to members addressed those issues.

It is clear that the current proposals need to be improved so that we can be confident of a smooth introduction that will deliver the scheme’s aims as a key part of the circular economy in Scotland.

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

In principle,

my party supports the idea of a deposit return scheme. If it was run efficiently, we would support it. International evidence shows that a scheme can work. Many countries already have an effective system in place, and the United Kingdom Government is bringing in a DRS across England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Will the member take an intervention?

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

I will take a very brief one. I have a lot to get through.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I just want to understand at what point the Tory Party dropped its commitment to include glass in the DRS. Was it before or after the member’s party accepted a donation from the Wine and Spirit Trade Association?

Annie Wells (Conservative, Glasgow)

We are talking about something completely different that affects businesses in Scotland, right now—I will come on to that in a second.

A well-thought-out deposit return scheme can help to improve rates of recycling—[

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Ms Wells, could you

please resume your seat for a second? I remind members that we should listen to the member who has the floor, which in this case is Annie Wells, and that I am not responsible for the content of members’ comments. Please resume, Ms Wells. [

Interruption

.]