Scottish Parliament, 2 February 2023

328 contributions from 67 members. The official report.

Maternity Services (Caithness)

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

1. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will conduct an independent review into the maternity model in Caithness. (S6O-01860)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

The maternity model in Caithness was put in place by NHS Highland following a review that was led by Professor Hugo van Woerden, who was then NHS Highland’s director of public health, following the tragic death of a full-term baby at the unit in 2015. The report of the review, which included two external reviews, recommended that the maternity unit in Caithness move to a midwife-led unit to address safety issues. That change was unanimously agreed by NHS Highland’s board.

The model of care that operates in Caithness is, of course, similar to models that operate in other parts of NHS Highland and, indeed, other NHS boards in Scotland.

Rhoda Grant will be aware of the work that is under way in the best start north review, which was commissioned jointly by NHS Grampian, NHS Highland and the three island health boards. The work of the review group was paused during Covid, but it recently restarted, led by the directors of midwifery from all six northern boards.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

The cabinet secretary has carried out independent reviews of Moray maternity services, and he has now commenced a review in Dumfries and Galloway. The review that was carried out by NHS Highland was not independent of NHS Highland, and concerns about maternity services have been on-going since the change was made back in 2016, when obstetric cover was removed. Women have to travel over 100 miles to give birth. That is like asking a woman from Edinburgh to travel to Newcastle to give birth. It is absolutely unacceptable.

Will the cabinet secretary stop the centralisation of maternity services away from Caithness, admit that that was a mistake and commit to having a full, independent review as soon as possible?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I regret the tone and implication of Ms Grant’s question. As I stated in my original answer, it is important for us to remember that the review was carried out after the tragic death of a full-term baby at the unit in 2015. Those were the circumstances behind why there was a review. Two external reviews were included as part of the overall review. On the basis and the back of that tragic death, the review recommended that Caithness move to a midwife-led unit to address the safety issues.

Ms Grant was wrong to say that I have commissioned an independent review in relation to maternity services in Wigtownshire. The local health board decided to commence an independent review of maternity services in Wigtownshire on 18 January. That is a decision for the health board. The health board in Highland is, of course, part of the best start north review, which will look at how maternity services operate throughout Highland. I hope that Rhoda Grant will collaborate with and take part in that review—she undoubtedly will.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Can the cabinet secretary confirm whether the Scottish Government has reviewed the conclusions of the risk assessments for each maternity patient in labour who has been transferred from Caithness general hospital to Raigmore hospital? If it has not done so, will it?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Again, those are important decisions and important risk assessments for local health boards to take. Of course I understand the concerns that are legitimately raised

by

Edward Mountain and Rhoda Grant.

I met the Caithness Health Action Team—or CHAT—campaign group last year. As a result of that, I know that there are now face-to-face formal meetings between NHS Highland and the campaign group.

NHS Highland has in place protocols to mitigate the risks associated with the transfer of pregnant women, particularly in an emergency situation. The best start north review has commenced, and I encourage Edward Mountain, as I encouraged Rhoda Grant, to engage with that review.

Menopause Specialist Network

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

2. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the development of a menopause specialist network. (S6O-01861)

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

The action in the women’s health plan to develop a national menopause specialist network has been completed. The network has been meeting since 2021 to provide consistent advice and peer support and to share good practice among healthcare professionals, including primary care teams. The network meets on a quarterly basis and includes representatives from all mainland national health service boards.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I thank the minister for that answer. It was recently estimated that, in the United Kingdom, during an undefined period, more than 900,000 employees left their jobs because of the impact of menopause symptoms. In addition to better clinical support for women during menopause, better understanding and support is needed in workplaces. I know that I am potentially creeping into another minister’s remit but, in the spirit of cross-portfolio working, could some work be done within the women’s health brief to better inform workplaces on the menopause and get meaningful policies in place? Perhaps that could start with our NHS—after all, it employs many women whom we cannot afford to lose from the workplace.

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

Our women’s health plan highlights the need to consider women as rounded individuals with a range of needs, and we are committed to working across portfolios to achieve our aim of reducing health inequalities and improving health outcomes for women, including in the workplace. Menopausal women are the fastest growing demographic in the workforce, so it is now more important than ever to speak openly about the menopause at work. Through the women’s health plan, we are developing support for employers and those who experience symptoms of the menopause. That work includes a menopause and menstrual health workplace policy for NHS Scotland as an example of best practice to promote across the public, private and third sectors.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

Last week, the Scottish Government published its women’s health progress report, which was delayed by six months. Can the minister explain why the establishment of a dedicated menopause policy post has not been achieved? In the Government’s implementation plan, that was classed as a short-term action, so it should have been delivered within the year. When will an appointment be made?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I am very proud of the progress that we have made in the first year of the women’s health plan and, of course, Scotland was the first country in the United Kingdom to put forward a women’s health plan. From the moment that I took up my post, I have been very clear that we have a great deal of work to do to overturn the millennia of discrimination and disadvantage that women face. I think that we have done great work on the menopause. As I said in my previous answer, we have brought forward access to a specialist menopause workforce. On our NHS Inform website, we have busted myths about the menopause, and I am really proud of the progress that we have made.

I am happy to write

to Jackie Baillie with an update in response to the specific question that she asked.

Speech Difficulties (Support for Young People)

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to support young people with speech difficulties. (S6O-01862)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We want to intervene early to prevent speech difficulties from arising in young people. An important part of our efforts to address that has been increasing our health visitor workforce by more than 500 since 2014 and expanding funded early learning and childcare to 1,140 hours for all eligible children. Both measures are critical to supporting children’s early language development.

We also recognise the importance of timely access to speech and language therapy. We have increased health boards’ flexibility in reducing waiting times, to ensure that those with the greatest need are seen first, while maximising prevention and early intervention approaches for those who are waiting.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

The cabinet secretary talks about early intervention, but the reality is that there is a two-year waiting list in North Ayrshire to see a children’s speech therapist. In fact, the list is now closed, and parents have to go private and pay for assistance for their children. There is a two-tier system in speech therapy in Scotland, due to chronic underfunding and a nationwide lack of speech therapists. I am sure that members across the chamber will be experiencing similar issues. How have we let things get so bad? Early intervention is absolutely key to young people’s learning and development, but if there is a two-year waiting list, the outcomes will be much poorer. Will the cabinet secretary reflect on that? What is he going to do about it?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I will not only reflect on it, but make sure that we take action. Jamie Greene is right to raise the issue of NHS Ayrshire and Arran. I know about the specific challenges that NHS Ayrshire and Arran has had with recruitment and that it has lost some staff in its speech and language therapy department.

I have asked the chief allied health professions officer to engage directly with the board. She has asked NHS Ayrshire and Arran to resume the waiting list for routine referrals, which I know was an issue of concern. I understand NHS Ayrshire and Arran’s decision to close the list for routine referrals, and it is important to say that that decision never affected urgent referrals, which are still being seen. The average referral-to-assessment time is four days.

I do not agree with Jamie Greene’s suggestion that the national health service has been chronically underfunded—that is incorrect. We are putting record investment into our NHS, with a record £19 billion for 2023-24.

Ferries Task Force (Orkney)

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

4. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the work of the ferries task force with Orkney Islands Council. (S6O-01863)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The transport minister and I had a useful meeting with representatives of Orkney Islands Council earlier this week. We discussed a range of matters about how best to support the Council with the challenges that it faces in delivering its ferry responsibilities, and we look forward to continuing discussions.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I welcome the meeting on Tuesday and, given how late in the day the meeting was arranged, I welcome the fact that a further meeting is due to take place in, I think, April.

It is important—vital, I would say—that ministers remain involved in the process. Given the impact on island communities in Orkney of increased disruption to services due to the age of the internal ferry fleet, not to mention the costs and the impact through higher emissions, what reassurance can the Deputy First Minister offer my constituents that this process will ultimately lead to a funding package that will allow the replacement of that fleet?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I think the fact that the work is under way should be reassurance to Mr McArthur’s constituents. I recognise the significance of the issues that are involved and the necessity of there being reliable interisland ferries and connections for his constituents. We have embarked on the work that is necessary to explore those issues, and we look forward to sustaining that work with Orkney Islands Council.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I am pleased that that meeting finally took place and that the talks were, at least in the Scottish Government’s finest ministerial technospeak, positive and constructive. However, I am not aware of any agenda having been published ahead of the meeting. Will the cabinet secretary ensure full transparency of the discussions so that residents in Orkney can have confidence that this is not just another talking shop or, as one local councillor put it, a “placating tactic”? When will full, detailed minutes of the meeting be publicly available, and when will the agenda for the next talks be published?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

It is nice to see that Mr Halcro Johnston is able to summon up a really warm welcome for the Government’s dialogue with Orkney Islands Council. [

Interruption

.] It really is another further descent into the miserableism of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. There is an abundance of miserableism on the Scottish Conservative benches on a constant basis.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

If you would answer the question briefly, please.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

As with all things—[

Interruption

.] As with all things, there will be full transparency from the Scottish Government—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Members! We will hear the cabinet secretary. We have a finite amount of time and a lot of interest, and I would be grateful if we could get through business.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

There is a finite time for having to put up with the nonsense that we get from the Scottish Conservatives. I simply reiterate that the Government will apply full transparency to all the deliberations that we have with Orkney Islands Council.

Commissions and Commissioners (Costs)

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether any increased number and cost of commissions and commissioners for which it is responsible will mean resources being diverted away from front-line services. (S6O-01864)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The financial resources that are sought by such office-holders to support their respective functions are provided for in relevant acts, which are a matter for the Parliament. It is a simple matter of fact that the more office-holders there are, and the more resources they utilise, the less will be available for public services.

I have been open with Parliament about the scale of the pressures that we currently face in the public finances, and it is vital that all public bodies and office-holders contain their costs.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

It has been suggested that we might be heading towards having 14 commissioners. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that could mean that sectors with a commissioner might have a louder voice and that sectors without a commissioner will not be heard so well?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

This is a difficult issue for the Government to judge upon, because the legislation to establish commissioners is essentially a matter for Parliament. Parliament also, through the work of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, has to regulate, or advise on the regulation of, the financial assistance that is made available to office-holders. That is a difficult issue for the Government to control, because doing so would potentially mean the Government intruding on the right and proper space that is available for Parliament to determine these issues. I am acutely conscious of the necessity to respect that boundary.

Having said that, all of us—whether we are members of the Government or of the Opposition—have a duty to recognise the pressures that exist on the public finances. That should be reflected in the financial support that is available to office-holders and the number of office-holders that we have in place.

Town Centre Action Plan (Impact in Mid Scotland and Fife)

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what impact its town centre action plan is having in communities in the Mid Scotland and Fife region. (S6O-01865)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

In Mid Scotland and Fife, the Scottish Government is delivering on town centre action by providing more than £22 million in funding to local authorities for local projects since 2019 through our place-based investment programme and the town centre fund. A further £4.5 million is being invested through the regeneration capital grant fund over the period 2020-23 alone.

We are also supporting community wealth-building pilots in Fife, and we are working collaboratively with the Coalfields Regeneration Trust in the Fife area on climate action.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I appreciate the response from the minister, but I think that he is missing the point. I have asked this question in three different ways—twice in writing and again today. I keep getting told that we have a plan, and another plan—but the plans are not working. [

Interruption

.]

11:56 Meeting suspended.

11:58 On resuming—

The Presiding Officer

We may recommence. Minister Tom Arthur will complete his response to Ms McCall.

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Presiding Officer, I had completed my response.

The Presiding Officer

Sorry—excuse me. Ms McCall.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Thank you. I do

appreciate the response from the minister, but I think that he misses the point. I have asked this question in three different ways—twice in writing and again today. I keep getting told that we have a plan, and another plan—but the plans are not working.

Shop vacancy rates remain unchanged, with one in six stores in our high streets lying empty. That is the highest rate in the United Kingdom. The volume of empty units in shopping centres remains at more than 20 per cent, which is completely unchanged. Calls from industry bodies to match the 75 per cent rates relief for small businesses that is in place in the rest of the United Kingdom are being ignored. Given that, what tangible evidence does the minister have that those multiple plans will make any impact whatsoever on the communities in Mid Scotland and Fife?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

This is a complex area. Our town centres face systemic challenges going back many years. They have also faced the acute crisis of the pandemic and the current cost crisis.

There are three aspects to how we address that. There is clear strategic direction, which we are providing; there is partnership working with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and local communities; and there is funding, which I outlined in my original answer. There is no short-term fix and no overnight solution to the challenges that our town centres face.

The issue is not unique to Scotland, but we have a strategic approach, through our town centre action plan, through our retail strategy and through our community wealth building aspirations. Indeed, I launched the consultation on community wealth building earlier this week.

In Mid Scotland and Fife, Clackmannanshire and Fife, there are pilot areas that are supported by the Scottish Government.

As I said, this is a complex area. We are providing funding and we are working in partnership. If the member, or indeed any member, wishes to discuss these complex issues in more detail, I am more than happy to meet them to do so.

Gender Self-identification (Rapists)

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Th

e public have rightly been outraged that a double rapist changed their gender after being charged by the police. This week, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans, Keith Brown, was asked whether that rapist should now be considered a woman. This is what Keith Brown said:

“I think that is the case. We have to accept people identify, as in this case, as women.”

Does the First Minister agree with her justice secretary?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I think that a rapist should be considered a rapist. That is what I think. That individual has been convicted of rapes and therefore that is the terminology. I will not get into the individual circumstances of that particular individual’s claims to be a woman, because I do not have enough information about that, but the individual has been convicted of serious sex offences, and that is the relevant consideration in terms of which prison they should be accommodated in.

I will say briefly that, in addition to that, these issues have obviously had great public and media attention in recent days, but these issues are not new, nor have the arrangements within the Scottish Prison Service for dealing with transgender prisoners changed in any way. As the chair of the Prison Officers Association Scotland said this week, the Scottish Prison Service has been making risk-based decisions about the accommodation of trans prisoners for many years, and indeed it has been doing that effectively and safely.

The risk assessment processes in the cases that have been reported in recent days are under way. It is not the case that any decision had been taken to allow either of those people to serve their sentences in women’s prisons. However, given the nature of the coverage and the potential—the reality—for that to cause concern among women prisoners and the general population, and indeed to cause distress in the trans community, the overwhelming majority of whom, like the overwhelming majority of the general population, have never committed any offences, led us to clarify the matter and put it beyond doubt.

The position now, pending the review that was already under way, is that no transgender prisoner with a history of violence, including sexual violence, against women will be housed in or transferred to a women’s prison. That is what is important, and it is that clarity that matters to the public.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The First Minister’s final words there were about clarity. That answer was anything but clear. Her justice secretary is very clear that he thinks that a double rapist is a woman. He has enough information to come to that conclusion. The First Minister says that she does not have enough information to come to that conclusion.

I want to look at an area where we agree, which is that trans people are not the problem here. However, here is where we disagree. When a man rapes two women, we do not think that he should be considered a woman just because he says so. We should call out criminals such as that one, who are abusing the system—they are not trans people, but dangerous and violent men. Adam Graham, who wants to be known as Isla Bryson, raped two women. He is an abusive man who seeks to exploit loopholes in the Government’s current policy.

Nicola Sturgeon’s answer to me was that she wants to call a rapist a rapist. However, can she just give a clear answer to my question—not the question that she wants to answer, but the one that I want to ask her: is that double rapist a woman?

The First Minister

That individual claims to be a woman; I said that I do not have information about whether those claims have validity. I do not think that Douglas Ross and I are disagreeing here. What is relevant in this case is not whether the individual is a man or claims to be a woman or is trans; what is relevant is that the individual is a rapist. That is how the individual should be described and that is what should be the main consideration in deciding how the individual is dealt with—that is why the individual is in a male prison and not a female one. Those are the issues that matter.

Douglas Ross talked about current policy. I accept that he has not done so today, but I have read many things in recent days that have tried to conflate the situation in prisons with the legislation that Parliament passed overwhelmingly before Christmas. The two are, of course, not connected and would not be connected even if that legislation was in force, which it is not. The current policy, which is, in my understanding, broadly similar to the approaches that are taken in other jurisdictions, has been in place in the Scottish Prison Service since 2014. As the chair of the Prison Officers Association Scotland said himself this week, the prison service has been taking risk-based decisions about transgender prisoners for many years and it has been doing that safely and effectively. That is what it should continue to do, albeit with the presumptions that were set out for clarity at the weekend.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The First Minister is right to say that I have not mentioned the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill at all. I am speaking about the current Scottish Government policy—I have it here—which states that

“it is the view of the Scottish Government that trans women are women”.

It is the view of the First Minister’s justice secretary that a double rapist is a woman. I am not sure what the First Minister’s view on that is. She says that there is no disagreement between her and me on that point, but there is a massive disagreement. I believe that a double rapist or anyone who rapes a woman is a man—they cannot be considered anything else.

This all matters for very good reasons. It matters because when a violent criminal, such as Adam Graham, gets out of prison, under Nicola Sturgeon’s current Government policies—the ones that I have just spoken about, which she raised—he is considered a woman, which means that sex offenders such as him can keep forcing their way into women’s spaces.

Adam Graham was already able to access a beauty class after raping two women. Twenty-one-year-old Rachel Ferguson was in that class with him and told a newspaper:

“It really scares me to look back and realise she was watching me with no clothes on after being charged with this. It makes me feel physically sick and violated.”

This is a fundamental question about women’s safety. I refuse to trust the word of a rapist. Why does the First Minister do so?

The First Minister

I do not, and nothing that I have said suggests that I do.

Can I set out the reality here? In rightly dealing with the matter and in my answering questions about that very serious individual case, it is important that we also remember—and it bears repetition—that trans women are a very tiny proportion of our society and that the overwhelming number of them never commit any offences of any description, as is true for the overwhelming majority of the general population. In dealing with individuals such as that one, who have to be dealt with very seriously, it is important that we do not inadvertently undermine the rights of the law-abiding majority of trans people in our country. That is an important principle of which we must not lose sight.

Rapists should be dealt with as rapists—I do not think that there is any disagreement on that, and it does a disservice to the victims of crime to suggest that we disagree on that issue.

On access to single-sex spaces, it is the case that, under current law—the Equality Act 2010, which is of course legislation that is reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament—there are provisions to exclude trans women from single-sex spaces. Those exemptions can be applied whether or not a trans woman has a gender recognition certificate. It is important that, as we discuss these important issues, we do so calmly—I recognise that we are having a calm exchange right now—and without misrepresenting the position, even inadvertently, because that would do a disservice to the trans community more generally, the victims of male violence against women and the population at large.

I will remind Douglas Ross of another point, which I have made before. I do not pretend to speak for them, but organisations such as Rape Crisis Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid, which deal day and daily with women who have been the victims of male violence against them, were supportive of the legislation, and they deal with the situation around trans women every day. We could all do with listening more to them, because they are in many respects the experts in their field.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

We are having a calm debate, which is right for this sensitive issue. However, I am feeling frustrated, as I was last week, that I have repeatedly asked the First Minister for an answer that she refuses to give.

Under law, a rapist has to be a man. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans thinks that this rapist is a woman. In my final opportunity today, I would like to get a clear answer from the First Minister. Is Adam Graham—this double rapist—a man or a woman?

Let us remember that, in court, this man lied. He told people that he did not rape two women. However, under Nicola Sturgeon’s policy, he is believed when he claims to be a woman. He can keep on demanding access to women’s spaces, he can keep forcing victims to call him “she” and he can keep terrifying and traumatising women.

There is murmuring among SNP members, so I ask them and the First Minister to listen to the words of one of

Adam Graham’s victims. This survivor was raped by him. On Sunday, she said:

“I don’t believe a word ... I don’t believe he’s truly transgender. I feel as if he’s made a mockery out of them using it ... I’m sure he’s faking it.”

This brave woman summed up the feeling of the majority of people in Scotland when she said:

“You’ve got genuine cases where people are desperate to get reassignment for the right reasons because they’ve been born into that body … not because they’ve raped two people and decided that’s an easy way out.”

Why is the First Minister giving rapists an easy way out?

The First Minister

That does a disservice to victims of crime. I will say a number of things, which are all extremely important.

On the quote that Douglas Ross narrated, my feeling is that that is almost certainly the case, which is why the key factor—and only important factor—in the case is not the individual’s claim to be a woman but the fact that they have been convicted of rape. The individual is a rapist: that should be the deciding factor in decisions about how that prisoner is treated, which, indeed, is what is happening in relation to where the prisoner is.

On more than one occasion today, Douglas Ross has used the terminology of forcing access to women-only spaces. Those are important considerations, but that language ignores the exemptions under current equality law, which is law that, even if this Parliament wanted to, it could not change. Those exemptions enable trans women to be excluded from single-sex spaces when the tests in that legislation are met, regardless of whether they have a gender recognition certificate.

The other thing that Douglas Ross’s questions ignore is the fact that, for any sex offenders who are released from prison, there are monitoring arrangements—the well-established MAPPA or multi-agency public protection arrangements—to ensure that any continuing risks that are posed by individuals, regardless of gender, are properly managed.

It is really important that we look seriously at all these issues, but, in doing so, we should bear in mind two things. First, as I have said, we should not further stigmatise trans people generally. That is important. Secondly, we should not cause undue concern among the public. If there are issues to be addressed, we should address them, but we should do that in a way that is not just calm, but which does not misrepresent the situation, because that is in nobody’s interest.

If all of us come at such debates in that spirit, we can work our way through all these issues, respecting the rights of those whose rights deserve to be respected, but also protecting the public—and women, in particular—from men who want to and do commit violent acts against them.

Local Government Funding

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. For the past 15 years, the Scottish Government has short-changed local councils. It did not matter whether the Scottish Government’s budget went up or down; local authorities had their budgets cut. Now, they are at financial breaking point.

This week, two of Scotland’s most senior councillors said that council services face being

“either significantly reduced, cut, or stopped altogether”,

and that

“Local authorities will have to consider cutting pupil support staff, libraries, youth work and other vital services”.

Are those councillors wrong?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Councillors are not wrong to say that we live in times of real financial difficulty and constraint. That is true of the Scottish Government, and it is absolutely true of councils across our country.

At this time every year—I think that I made this comment a couple of weeks ago—we hear such questions, as councils look at options that are put before them. Often, those options are not taken forward. However, it is important that all councils look carefully at how they balance their budgets, but that they do that in a way that also fulfils their priorities.

In the budget for the financial year that is about to start—of course, Parliament will debate the Budget (Scotland) (No 2) Bill at stage 1 this afternoon—we are proposing an increase in the resources available to local government of more than £570 million. That is a real-terms increase of £160 million.

Times are difficult for local government, but within the constrained financial resources that we have, which will be increased by decisions that we are taking—we are proposing to Parliament that we ask those who earn the most to pay a bit more—we are treating local government as fairly as we can.

Finally, I make an invitation to Anas Sarwar and to any member across the chamber: if, as we go through the budget process, they have a proposition to give more money to local government, they should by all means make that suggestion, but they should also tell us where in the budget we should take that money from. That is the only grown-up and mature way to approach budget deliberations.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Why are the councillors whom I quoted considering budget cuts? They are considering cuts because of decisions that the Scottish Government has made—there have been £6 billion of core budget cuts since 2013-14.

The words that I quoted were the words of Scottish National Party councillors Shona Morrison and Katie Hagmann, who are the president and the resources spokesperson of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. Those two SNP councillors have been brave enough to say out loud what the SNP Government knows is the truth.

Councillor Hagmann also said:

“Councils are left with little choice other than to potentially raise council tax, raise our fees and charges, or cut or potentially even stop our vital services that we are currently providing”.

When she was asked whether council tax might have to rise by as much as 10 per cent, she said:

“all options are very much on the table.”

The public are being asked to foot the bill for public services that are getting worse by the week because the Scottish Government has underfunded councils for 15 years. First Minister, why are people across Scotland being asked to pay more for less?

The First Minister

That is not the case.

I repeat the offer that I made to Anas Sarwar. As a Parliament, we will debate the budget for next year in this afternoon’s stage 1 debate on the Budget (Scotland) (No 2) Bill. The budget proposals will then go through the other stages before the budget is passed by Parliament as a whole.

We have put forward a balanced budget. We have allocated all the resources that we have at our disposal. Within that budget, we are increasing local government resources by more than £0.5 billion. If Anas Sarwar is saying that he thinks that local government should get more money than that, let him bring forward that proposal but also tell us—because there is no unallocated pot of cash—where we should take the extra money from. Should it be from the national health service? Should it be from the police? Should it be from the central Government education budget? Those are real questions.

If Anas Sarwar is standing here arguing for a bigger increase for local government—which is legitimate and which he has a right to do—and if he wants to be taken seriously, he must also say where that money should come from. I am waiting for, and am open to, any suggestion that Anas Sarwar wants to make.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The First Minister wants to ignore all this Government’s waste, the vanity projects and the money hidden behind the sofa for the deal with the Greens. We have had cuts right across the country, and she knows that she has taken the decisions that have slashed council budgets. For 15 years, the SNP has underfunded councils, even when her ministers had more money to spend—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear Mr Sarwar.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

People across Scotland are now facing the double whammy of increased income taxes and hikes in council tax. That means that taxes will go up—not only for the richest but for almost every household in Scotland—but that services will still be cut.

Now, a leaked COSLA document reveals potential job losses on a massive scale. COSLA estimates that more than 7,000 jobs will be lost—7,000. Here is what council leaders from her own party say:

“This budget settlement will have a detrimental impact on vital local services. It will lead to the loss of jobs both within local authorities and within the local companies who supply goods and services to councils.”

After 15 years of command and control, things have got so bad that many of Nicola Sturgeon’s own colleagues are no longer willing to blindly follow orders. Her MPs have lost faith in her strategy, her councillors have lost faith in her decisions and now her MSPs face a choice. Will they vote through those cuts or will they finally—finally—stand up for their local communities?

The First Minister

The problem for Anas Sarwar is that it is the verdict of the Scottish people that matters, which is why I am standing here and he is sitting over there.

Anas Sarwar has just demonstrated that he does not yet deserve to be taken seriously in these exchanges. He is absolutely correct to say that these are really difficult times for local government, as they are for central Government, when it comes to the allocation of resources. We have put a draft budget before Parliament. I stress the word “draft”. Parliament is about to debate that budget.

All the resources that we have are allocated within that draft budget. If it is Anas Sarwar’s proposition that he would like more money to go to local government, that is a legitimate proposal to make, but he has to say where he wants us to take that money from, because it would have to come from the national health service, from the police or from other budgets. Anas Sarwar has that opportunity, and I will wait to hear whether a proposition comes from Labour this afternoon. If he wants us to increase the allocation to local government, he has to say that we should reduce the allocation to some other part of our budget. He must let us know where he thinks that money should come from, and then we can perhaps have a proper, grown-up discussion, rather than the one that he has just made us have.

Cabinet (Meetings)

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

3. When we are told to run from danger, our emergency workers run towards it. Last week, Edinburgh firefighter Barry Martin did just that and paid the ultimate price for so doing. I hope that the First Minister will join me in paying tribute to Barry and will support our efforts to see him posthumously awarded the George cross, the highest award for civilian gallantry.

To ask the First Minister when the Cabinet will next meet. (S6F-01775)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

The Cabinet will meet on Tuesday.

I also take the opportunity to convey my deepest condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of firefighter Barry Martin. He typifies the bravery and courage of all our emergency service workers, particularly our firefighters. I have written to Firefighter Martin’s family. The thoughts of everyone, from across the chamber, are very much with them at this time. I hope that, at this horrendously sad time for them, they will take some comfort from the love that has been expressed by all who knew and worked with Barry.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

I am particularly grateful for that reply.

I remind the Parliament that my wife is a primary school teacher and a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland.

We have calculated that, after the disruption of the pandemic, Scotland’s school pupils have now lost more than 2 million days of education due to strike action. That will double if an agreement is not reached. Today, it is Dundee and Argyll and Bute. Tomorrow, it is South Lanarkshire and the Western Isles. Teachers care deeply about their pupils, and closing the gates is the last thing that they want to do, but the previous pay offer was made to them back in November, and there has been nothing new since then.

This generation of young people has had it harder than any other, and life-qualifying exams are coming over the horizon. Waiting for teachers to buckle or inflation to fall is not a strategy. What will the First Minister do personally to keep those school gates open?

The First Minister

First, I agree that no one wants to see—I certainly do not want to see—any further disruption to children’s education. Alex Cole-Hamilton is right to point to the disruption that Covid caused to children and young people. I also share and echo the respect that he expressed for teachers.

I very much hope that we will reach a resolution and a pay agreement soon that avoids further disruption, but it is important that that continues to be discussed and negotiated through the mechanisms that are in place.

The final thing that I will say—I have said this before—is that the Government is not simply digging its heels in. Any resolution has to be fair and has to be affordable. On the point that we do not simply dig our heels in, we can point to other pay negotiations through which we have managed to reach resolutions that have avoided industrial action in other public services.

We will continue to seek a fair and affordable resolution with teachers that continues to reward them for the excellent work that they do.

Teacher Numbers

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

4. To ask the First Minister what discussions the Scottish Government has had with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities with regard to the proposals in some local authorities to reduce teacher numbers, given its commitment to increase teacher numbers by 3,500 by the end of the current parliamentary session. (S6F-01787)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I am very firmly of the view that a reduction in teacher numbers would not be in keeping with our commitment to raise attainment and close the attainment gap in our schools. Indeed, as Christine Grahame has set out, this Government is committed to recruiting additional teachers and classroom assistants. We have provided an additional £145.5 million in this year’s budget specifically to recruit additional teachers. That funding will also be included in next year’s budget for councils, as part of our on-going commitment on teacher numbers.

The Deputy First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills met local government representatives on Tuesday to discuss how we can best deliver on that commitment and protect learning hours, and the education secretary will set out further steps to the Scottish Parliament over the coming days.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I thank the First Minister for her answer. As a former secondary school teacher—although it was some time ago—I have huge regard for the commitment of the profession. Indeed, I benefited, as someone from a working-class background, from state education through to university.

However, context is all, and budgets are, as a result of 10 per cent inflation, under severe pressure at Scottish Government and local government levels, with the same pressures applying in Wales and England, where teachers are on strike.

The issue of funding for education is not a Scottish Government problem: it is a United Kingdom-wide one and is a direct consequence of raging inflation, which Anas Sarwar sidestepped in his exchange with the First Minister. Is not it time that Rishi Sunak ditched his current policy of austerity to tackle the UK Government’s self-inflicted inflation, increased funding to the Scottish Government—and Wales, while we are at it—and dealt with the fallout of a decade of failed Tory policies, which have been exacerbated by Brexit—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, Ms Grahame—

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

Out of all the—[

Inaudible

.]

The Presiding Officer

P

lease draw your question to a close.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

—four Tory chancellors in one year, and who could forget Liz Truss?

The First Minister

Christine Grahame is absolutely correct. The discomfort among Conservatives was palpable while she was speaking. I also detected a bit of discomfort among Labour members, although I am not quite so sure why that should be the case.

The fact of the matter is that the budget that this Government works within is constrained by decisions that are taken by UK Governments, which still hold most of the financial levers, but within that we are doing everything that we can do to protect public services and secure the fairest possible pay deals for the people who work in them.

However, Christine Grahame is right: the Parliament—and the Government—would be able to do so much more if Rishi Sunak loosened the purse strings, started to negotiate fair pay deals with public sector workers in England and increased funding to the devolved Administrations. Surely, all of us, across the chamber, should unite to call for that.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

We have heard a bizarre question followed by a bizarre answer. There is a bizarre situation that only Nicola Sturgeon could have concocted: reportedly, the Scottish National Party Government is now threatening to sanction local councils because of SNP underfunding.

The First Minister is forcing councils to choose between deep cuts to local services and above-inflation tax increases. How else, exactly, does she expect them to pay for her commitment to increase teacher numbers?

The First Minister

It is only a couple of weeks since Stephen Kerr’s leader in this Parliament said that the Government had to ensure that there will be no reductions in teacher numbers. The Tories should make up their minds about which side they are on.

However, if Stephen Kerr wants the Government to allocate more resources to local government or to any other part of public services, either he must tell us—as I challenged Anas Sarwar to do—where that money should come from, or his colleagues should call on their bosses at Westminster to deliver more funding for the devolved Administrations.

Finally, the Conservatives should probably drop their call for tax cuts for the richest people in our society. Just this morning, I saw that Liz Smith has said that one of the priorities for the Scottish Government in our budget should be to narrow the tax gap between Scotland and the rest of the UK. That tax gap exists because we ask those who earn the most to pay a bit more. Obviously, what she said means that the Tories still want tax cuts for the richest, which would reduce funding for public services. There is no consistency or principle whatsoever coming from the Tories.

Disabled People (Support with Energy Costs)

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the First Minister what schemes the Scottish Government has in place to support disabled people with the energy costs of running lifesaving and independent living equipment at home. (S6F-01771)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

High energy prices, along with the wider cost of living crisis, are causing extreme challenges for many people, right now.

We provide a range of disability benefits to help disabled people and those with long-term conditions. The child winter heating assistance and carers allowance supplement provide financial support that is available only in Scotland, as does our new winter heating payment, which will begin in a few weeks. We have also doubled the fuel insecurity fund to £20 million, and some patients who use haemodialysis or oxygen equipment at home are already accessing financial support.

It is deeply regrettable that the United Kingdom Government is cutting, from the end of March, the support that is provided to hard-pressed families. I hope that it will reverse that decision and that members all across the chamber will call on it to do so, and that it will continue to provide the assistance that households need so badly at this time.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

Given that the cost of running life-saving equipment, such as a ventilator, can reach as much as £750 a month, does the First Minister agree that energy costs are putting at risk the health and human rights of disabled people, and will the Scottish Government commit to an urgent meeting with me and stakeholders to discuss urgent action to support families to run life-saving and independent-living equipment?

The First Minister

I am happy to ask the relevant minister to take part in such a meeting, and we would be happy to discuss what more the Scottish Government can do.

I agree with Jeremy Balfour about the impact of sky-high energy costs, which is why I think that the UK Government, which holds the levers, has to do much more to help people with the impact of those costs. This Government is doing everything that we can do within our powers and resources. I have pointed to the range of disability benefits that we provide and, in particular, to the doubling of the fuel insecurity fund to £20 million, which will help some of those who are dealing with the kinds of impacts that Jeremy Balfour has set out.

We will continue to look at what more we can do, but in this case the UK Government needs to act to deal with the root causes of rising energy prices and to take action now to help those who are dealing with the impact of them.

Paul O'Kane (Labour, West Scotland)

The cost of living crisis is being felt most acutely by people with caring responsibilities and those who are in receipt of care.

The Scottish Government commissioned the independent review of adult social care, which included a recommendation to scrap non-residential care charges, but we know that action has not been forthcoming to deliver on that recommendation. The removal of non-residential social care charges would, overnight, improve the lives of more than 100,000 people in Scotland by relieving the financial pressure on their households. Why has the First Minister failed to listen to experts such as Derek Feeley, and to scrap non-residential care charges?

The First Minister

The commitment that we gave on that recommendation, which I agree is important, was to achieve that over the course of this parliamentary session. We are currently looking to see how quickly that might be possible within the financial constraints that we are talking about. I absolutely recognise how important the issue is, but we have to deal with it within the budgets that we have.

I will repeat what I said to Anas Sarwar earlier in the context of the budget for next year. Any member who wants to propose additional funding for any line in the budget is, of course, entitled to do so, but they have to accompany that with an explanation of where they think the additional resources should come from. That is the hard part of setting budgets; Opposition members who want to propose extra money for parts of the budget really cannot escape that responsibility.

Cost of Living Crisis

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

6. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to research commissioned by Citizens Advice Scotland, which reportedly found that people are struggling to afford everyday goods, including period and hygiene products, and the energy costs associated with showering, bathing and laundry, due to the cost of living crisis. (S6F-01770)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

We remain very concerned about the hardship that people are facing right now due to the cost of living crisis, which is not yet abating. The majority of the key policy levers are, of course, held by the United Kingdom Government, including those that are related to energy bills. We will continue to press the UK Government to use all the levers at its disposal to tackle the emergency on the scale that is required.

In the meantime, we will continue to do all that we can do to help households within the limited budgets and powers that we have. We have allocated almost £3 billion in this financial year to initiatives to help people with the cost of living crisis. That includes £1 billion to provide services and support that are not available anywhere else in the UK. As I said in response to the previous question, we have also doubled the fuel insecurity fund to £20 million this year and we recently announced £2.4 million for action to help tackle food insecurity.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

I will follow up on two points on the levers that we have here. I think that since the Period Products (Free Provision) (Scotland) Act 2021 took legal effect last August we have all been hugely impressed by the work that is being done by councils, schools and others to make free period products widely available. Along with period dignity campaigners, I am keen to meet the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government to discuss ways to build on that success, so that we can raise awareness more and help the people who are highlighted in the Citizens Advice Scotland survey.

Secondly, we all know that rip-off energy bills are exploiting people and putting their lives at risk. The whole rotten system needs to be dismantled but, in the meantime, people need urgent support. Can the First Minister guarantee that everyone who is due the winter heating payment in Scotland will receive it this month?

The First Minister

Social Security Scotland is taking forward roll-out of benefits and, of course, it is always the priority to make sure that people get benefits to which they are entitled as quickly as possible.

In terms of wider issues around energy bills, which I covered in response to a previous question, it is important that we continue to consider everything that we could do, but the key levers lie with the UK Government.

On period poverty, all of us across the chamber—Monica Lennon was clearly a key person in this—should be proud of the progress on tackling period poverty. She is right to point to the progress that has been made, but she is also right to say that we should collectively look at how we can now build on that. I know that the social justice secretary would be happy to meet her and campaigners to discuss exactly how we might take that forward. I hope that on this—if not, perhaps, on many other issues that we discuss in the chamber—we can build some real consensus for the future.

The Presiding Officer

We move to constituency and general supplementaries.

United Kingdom Economy (International Monetary Fund)

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

New analysis by the International Monetary Fund has found that the United Kingdom is set to be the only major economy to shrink in 2023, with all other developed nations experiencing growth, even sanctions-hit Russia. That, on top of everything else, will severely impact on devolved nations and our responsibilities.

Why does the First Minister think that the UK is performing so poorly compared with other economies? Could it be because of the perfect storm of Westminster’s economic incompetence and a disastrous Brexit that Scotland did not vote for?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Natalie Don is absolutely right. There is, perhaps unsurprisingly, real discomfort on the Tory benches. Perhaps Tory members have just seen that another consequence of Tory economic and financial incompetence and mismanagement is that interest rates have been increased yet again by the Bank of England, which has real implications for people.

The IMF’s forecast is deeply worrying, but it should come as no surprise. The Scottish Government and others in Scotland have repeatedly warned that Brexit, particularly the hard Brexit that was chosen by the UK Government, would be devastating to Scotland’s economy and the UK as a whole. The economic impacts are already being felt. Britain’s gross domestic product was 5.5 per cent lower by the second quarter of 2022 than it would have been had Brexit not occurred. The consequences of that economic incompetence are devastating for businesses and individuals alike. Thanks to Brexit, the UK is facing a worse cost of living crisis than elsewhere.

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, First Minister.

The First Minister

That is the reality. I think that it is time that the UK Government, and, indeed, the main Opposition at UK level, woke up to that fact and abandoned the disaster that has been Brexit.

CPR Training

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The British Heart Foundation is in Parliament today to raise awareness of the importance of learning cardiopulmonary resuscitation. My constituent Stephanie Bain had to perform CPR on her five-week-old baby after he stopped breathing in his cot. Neither Stephanie nor her partner knew how to do CPR on a baby, and I can only imagine how terrifying that must have been for them and their family. The family is now urging parents to learn vital first aid skills that could save the lives of their young children. My office has been in touch with Stephanie, and I am pleased to say that Finlay is now doing well. I have also reached out to the British Heart Foundation to encourage it to create digital content that shows parents how to perform CPR on children who are under the age of one. As February is heart month, will the First Minister support the campaign to ensure that everyone, especially parents, has access to CPR training, as it saves lives?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Yes I will—

I am happy to give my support to that campaign. I welcome the British Heart Foundation to Parliament today and commend the organisation for the excellent work that it does, which has an impact on families across Scotland—we are very grateful to it for that. It is important that we work to raise awareness of education and training in CPR. I understand that the British Heart Foundation has an online tool called RevivR, which is about CPR. That is important, but there is more work that we can all do collectively. I am happy to give my support to that and to consider what more the Scottish Government can do to support those efforts.

Muirhouse Millennium Centre

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

The Muirhouse millennium centre

in my region is facing financial difficulty. Several meetings have been held to address the centre management’s concern about the lack of future core funding, which could mean the risk of closure. When community centres are not funded property, it is not only the centre that loses out; the families depending on them for support and help, particularly during the cost of living crisis, are left without a lifeline. Will the First Minister increase funding to local authorities to ensure that they have the necessary funds to support essential community centres such as the Muirhouse millennium centre?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

From my constituency, I know the importance of community centres and facilities, so I certainly agree with the sentiment that is being expressed. The individual issue that the member has raised is for the local council. On the central question about whether the Scottish Government will further increase the allocation to local councils, as I said earlier, the draft budget already proposes an increase in resources to local government of more than £0.5 billion. However, as I said to the leader of the member’s party some moments ago, if Labour wants to further increase that allocation, it is entitled to put forward that proposition, but it needs to point to the line in the budget where it thinks that we should take that money from. This afternoon and during the remainder of the budget process, we will wait to see whether any balanced proposals in that regard come from members on the Labour benches. However, based on the experience of past years, I will not be holding my breath.

Brexit (Social Care and Health)

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

This week marks the third anniversary of Brexit and last night, on the BBC, we heard Dr Donald Macaskill of Scottish Care outline the devastating impact that Brexit is having on our social care and health sectors. Dr Macaskill said that we have lost thousands of front-line staff because of Brexit and an immoveable visa and immigration system from Westminster.

Does the First Minister agree with Dr Macaskill and, if so, what does she think needs to happen to secure a better future for those sectors?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I agree with Donald Macaskill and I think that he was very clear in his comments last night when he said that we have lost thousands of front-line staff in nursing and in direct social care because of Brexit and because of the Westminster visa and immigration system.

Of course, the wider cost crisis is also having an impact.

As a country, we need to find a way back to Europe. As a country, we need to find a way of ensuring that we have an immigration system that is not just humane but meets our social and economic needs. It is clear—and it is becoming clearer every day—that Scotland will not find either of those things as part of the Westminster system of government. The route to both is through Scotland becoming an independent country.

Deposit Return Scheme

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Incredibly, there is still no operational blueprint for the deposit return scheme, despite it launching in just a few months. No wonder businesses are tearing their hair out. Retailers are investing a quarter of a billion pounds in the scheme this year alone, but they are being forced to take a best guess at how it is going to work.

The Scottish Retail Consortium is now calling for a complete operational blueprint to be released by the end of the month. Can the First Minister confirm that that will happen—yes or no?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Circularity Scotland continues to work with businesses as they finalise operational delivery plans ahead of the launch in August. It is also developing and constructing the logistical network that will support the effective operation of the scheme. I will ask Lorna Slater, the relevant minister, to write to the member to set out further details of the steps that are being taken between now and the launch in August.

Winter Heating Payments

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

Last night, it was confirmed that the Government cannot guarantee that the winter heating payments will be paid this month. As the First Minister said in response to my colleague, the Government has said that it is Department for Work and Pensions data that is the issue.

Ministers set a deadline of 31 January for the DWP to share that necessary data. The relevant minister confirmed in committee that the payments would be made in February if the Government got that data; it did, so I ask the First Minister, has the Government failed to properly plan for the delivery of the payment? Has it underestimated the time needed to properly execute the policy? Will our constituents get the payment this month or will the winter heating payment end up being the Scottish summer payment, paid too late to keep people warm this winter?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

We will continue, as we have done with all benefits, to ensure that people who are entitled to these benefits get the money timeously. We received the data from the DWP and payments will be made to the 415,000 people eligible for the payment automatically over the course of February and March.

The Presiding Officer

Ariane Burgess has the next question.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

Apologies, Presiding Officer—I meant to press my button again to withdraw the question.

The Presiding Officer

Thank you. That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will be a brief pause while the gallery clears before we move on to members’ business.

ME Services

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The Parliament is still sitting, so I ask the members of the public in the gallery who are leaving to do so quickly and quietly.

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-06112, in the name of Sue Webber, on a Scottish Government-commissioned review of ME services and future action. The debate will be concluded without any question being put, and I invite those members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament notes that the Scottish Government commissioned and welcomed an independently-produced stakeholder review of the NICE guideline on Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS), published on 5 July 2022; further notes that the review states that myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) or chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a complex chronic medical condition affecting an estimated 250,000 people in the UK and that around 20,000 people in Scotland are living with the condition, including in the Lothian region; highlights the four key symptoms characteristic of the condition, which are debilitating fatigue that is worsened by activity, post-exertional malaise (PEM)/symptom exacerbation, unrefreshing sleep and/or sleep disturbance, and cognitive dysfunction, and which affect multiple physiological systems and can fluctuate from mild to very severe in individuals and across the population affected; understands that the review recommends consideration be given to identifying the most effective approaches to improving GP knowledge, confidence and understanding of ME/CFS through an appropriate education programme, and further understands that the review recommends that pilot services should be funded in a selection of NHS boards to test the development of specialist services with patient involvement and third sector collaboration embedded in the design.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

I am pleased to bring this debate on ME to Parliament today, and I am delighted that members of #MEAction Scotland are able to join us in the public gallery—I hope that they have managed to make it in—to hear what might be done to improve care for those in the grip of this debilitating condition. For ME sufferers, even making the trip here could worsen their symptoms, because the condition impairs the ability of cells to produce energy and increases post-exertional malaise—the worsening of symptoms following any activity. So, as I said, I am delighted to welcome them to the chamber.

More than two decades ago, the Scottish Parliament cross-party group on ME was formed, and, in 2017, the first millions missing event took place outside the Parliament and former MSP Gail Ross held a members’ business debate. In September 2022, #MEAction Scotland met the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Humza Yousaf, who said that progress needs to be made and that he did not want to speak to us again in six months and “not have moved forward”. Sadly, it is now almost six months since that meeting and little to no progress has been made.

ME is becoming Scotland’s forgotten illness. Having met the team from #MEAction Scotland and having seen their sheer determination and passion as they continue to fight for targeted funding towards ME treatment by the NHS, I knew that I had to help in any way I can.

A constituent of mine, Jo Bussell Bruce, was an energetic, fit, and ambitious 28-year old manager in financial services with her whole life ahead of her. Jo is now 49 and has had ME for 21 years. She sent me her story, and I would like to read some of it out. She wrote:

“Like so many I’ve struggled with medical appointments over the years. I understand our doctors are overworked, underfunded and haven’t been trained properly on ME, but they must take responsibility for the toxic culture around ME, Long Covid and Fibromyalgia.

At the chronic pain clinic in Leith, I was recommended graded exercise therapy (GET) by a doctor who wouldn’t acknowledge my ME diagnosis. I explained that GET was about to be banned under the new NICE Guidelines.

Before that a doctor joked within earshot about my feeling the need to advise him of my ‘mental health condition’.

Before that a neurologist tried to downplay my diagnosis to ‘burnout’.

Before that it was another GP saying, ‘we call it CFS now, that’s the grown-up name’.

If you ask people with ME if they recognise themselves in my anecdotes, I guarantee they will say yes. Not 20% or 50%, all of them, and you’ll be flooded with far worse stories than mine. We face systemic bias within the medical community that needs education and consequences.

My GP isn’t uncaring, but we live in a time of evidence-based medicine. The Royal Colleges have refused to acknowledge that science has moved on and protects psychiatry’s hold on research funding. Unfortunately for people like me they simply have more resources and status in society to keep pumping out false narratives about our disease.

So, I had to become more knowledgeable about my illness than most doctors and they don’t hide their resentment about it. If you’re in any doubt, read the Reddit threads about ME or Fibromyalgia and you’ll see what they say of us and our diseases. They call us ‘malingerers’, ‘delusional’, ‘heart-sink’, ‘drug seekers’. Would you trust your loved ones in those hands?”

That statement is shocking and the story is heartbreaking, but what makes it worse is that it is very common among sufferers of ME.

Another constituent, Brighid Ó Dochartaigh—I hope that I pronounced her name correctly—got in touch and asked me to share her story to highlight this important opportunity for MSPs to stand alongside people with ME and call on the Scottish Government to implement the recommendations of the stakeholder report that the Government commissioned, which was produced last year. Brighid said:

“I am one of the more than 21,000 people in Scotland living with ME and one of the far too rapidly growing number of people who developed ME because of long covid. I was too sick to work for 13 months and lost a significant amount of income in that time. I’ve been left so ill that I can only work half time, from home, which has significantly altered my working role and I have no guarantee that my employer will facilitate me continuing to work remotely in the long term.

I’m too ill to socialise with friends, to travel, to visit family, or do most of the activities I love. Up until Covid and ME I regularly did fieldwork in remote areas of the world as part of my job as a geologist, and I was an ultramarathon runner. Now I can only walk for 20 minutes before having to stop, rest, and go home. I don’t think anyone would want my poor quality of life. It is unrelentingly hard to live like this, and there is no medical or social support.

In November 2020 I was referred to the NHS ME/CFS clinic in Edinburgh. The specialist physiotherapist and psychologist at the Edinburgh ... clinic were supportive and offered me all the help they could, but they had nothing to offer to help me get better—only to stop me getting ... worse.”

It is disappointing that there has been little progress in Scotland with how ME is diagnosed and managed, despite best practice guidance being available on how to support and treat patients, including guidance on the dangers of graded exercise encouraging people to “push through” symptoms.

As I said, I am here to make sure that the voices of sufferers are heard and that we amplify support for #MEAction Scotland’s campaign. I hope that members who take part in my debate will all help to raise awareness among other MSPs and the wider population. I am delighted to see so many people in the chamber after First Minister’s question time.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Emma Roddick, who joins us remotely.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I am grateful to Sue Webber for bringing the debate to the chamber, and I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute. I have spoken before in the chamber about how being disabled often means that you have to become an advocate—for yourself and usually for others with the same condition, too. You become an activist, because you have to in order to get treatment, to get adjustments at work and to be listened to. I have been overwhelmed by the number of people who got in touch with me to share their stories and information and to make sure that I took part in the debate, which I am happy to do on their behalf.

Having also met #MEAction Scotland last year to discuss its concerns, I have been struck by how consistent and clear the asks from sufferers have been. There is no ambiguity and no murkiness—folk want their doctors to understand what their condition means; they want those who treat ME patients to know what may make the condition worse instead of better, so that they do not cause further harm; and they want clear guidelines so that doctors are armed with the information and confidence that they need to prescribe treatment and support, and so that patients can refer easily to guidance that they trust instead of feeling the need to undertake mass individual research to figure out what their condition means for them and what treatment they need. That is not an unreasonable expectation or an unreachable goal.

Chronic conditions vary widely. I know that, although certain types of physiotherapy and exercise might help me, they could cause long-term damage that is potentially irreversible to someone with ME. However, I have met a lot of people who have had such damage done to them or a loved one because someone who was involved in their care did not have the knowledge that they needed.

One constituent—Morag—shared a very emotional account with me, and, like others, she wanted me to use her story in today’s debate. I am grateful to her for taking the time to share her story—for what I am sure was not the first or probably the last time—after she could not meet me last year because of her condition.

She first told me something very familiar. She knows that her GP is busy, so she speaks to them when a symptom becomes acute and she needs help with firefighting. That is really common among disabled people; there is no check-in for an overview of all the many symptoms that they struggle with every day, so they go to the doctor when a symptom gets really bad. Over time, they end up managing more and more serious symptoms without medical intervention and accept, as normal, things that would have been terrifying earlier in their diagnosis. Because my constituent has a chronic condition, a more managed approach, which allows her to discuss all the things that she is barely managing day in and day out, could really improve her life and give her the space to raise, and receive help with, slightly less scary and immediate symptoms. However, that needs a specialist service.

A few constituents have mentioned comments by Jason Leitch, who said that, while there is no Scottish guideline for ME, NICE guidelines should be used. However, my constituent does not have a care and support plan or a consultant, so she does not have specialist help or multidisciplinary input. NICE guidelines being met is not the reality for ME sufferers who have been in touch with me, and they want a Scottish guideline. My constituent described the added stress of coping alone and how that makes her condition worse. Without managed support, she is so limited by her condition; who knows how much better—or, at least, less difficult—her life would be with specialist help?

I have written to the Highland, Orkney, Shetland, Grampian and Western Isles NHS boards about individual cases, but, when there is such a clear pattern, it shows that national guidance and pressure are needed.

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I congratulate my friend Sue Webber on securing this important debate.

ME affects some 20,000 people across Scotland, and those who live with ME often have very different experiences of the condition. Their symptoms fluctuate severely, which leads to the need for high-level specialist care. Symptoms include extreme pain, post-exertion malaise and cognitive dysfunction, which have a debilitating impact not just on people’s physical health, but on their mental health, careers, education and relationships—all of which can be severely affected by the condition.

I will use my short time today to share some of the experiences of which I have been told by constituents who are living with ME. Many people have been in contact with me since the motion went before Parliament. They range in ages, life situations and symptoms, but they all agree that more must be done to support them and, crucially, the people who support them, including their families.

Sarah, from the Isle of Luing, was a senior physiotherapist for 25 years and she enjoyed mountaineering and long-distance walking, but, as a result of ME, she now struggles to walk more than a few metres. She requires an electric chair for any further distance and is mostly sofa and bed bound. She wrote movingly to me, saying that she felt lucky to have had such a fulfilling life prior to her ME diagnosis but that she worries for young people whose lives are abruptly left without those active experiences and memories. I agree with her. She has a good local GP, who has been able to provide—

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

Will the member take an intervention?

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Yes, of course.

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

I thank Donald Cameron for his contribution, and I am grateful for the other contributions today.

Perhaps we also ought to remember that there are young people with ME, who are often missing out on educational opportunities and opportunities to take part in the activities that he has just been talking about. Does he agree that there needs to be a consistent approach to supporting young people with ME in our schools?

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I thank Clare Adamson for her intervention, and I am very glad that she made that point. I completely agree that there needs to be a consistent approach and that we must remember young people in this discussion. In a moment, I will talk about a young person who had ME at the age of only six.

Many people who live in rural communities struggle to access help from the NHS, so more has to be done to widen access. My constituent Sarah, who I was talking about, says that ME is not taken with the necessary seriousness and that its physical impact is not sufficiently recognised.

Another constituent, who wishes to remain anonymous, told me that his experience of ME is one of feeling abandoned and stigmatised. He feels that, from the onset of his symptoms through to diagnosis and having to settle into that new life, he was left to figure out everything for himself. He said that, without counselling and the help that he receives from voluntary organisations such as the Dochas Carers Centre in Lochgilphead, he would find it difficult to make the best of his life.

I was contacted by another constituent, who cares for her son. She told me that he has not seen a GP for two and a half years and that, when he does need to see a GP, it is often a struggle to find one who recognises ME as a physical condition as well as a physiological one.

All of those stories—I wish that I had time to recount more of them—have common themes: that ME is a legitimate and debilitating condition that is still not fully understood; that there is often a lack of access to NHS services and treatment, which is often provided by the voluntary sector and by relatives instead; and that those living with ME want to see much more investment in finding a cure so that they can go back to living the lives that they used to lead.

This debate must be the start of a change. We need change and action from the Scottish Government, and it is vital that people living with ME are at the forefront of any developments.

I will finish with a story of hope. It is about someone whose daughter had ME between the ages of six and 19, which is a reminder that ME can afflict people from a very early age. With treatment, she recovered and, at the age of 32, she is healthy, in full-time work and living independently. We need more of those stories, and it is time for the Scottish Government to take action.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

I thank Sue Webber for bringing to the chamber this debate on the Scottish Government-commissioned review of ME services. I welcome the review, although it is important that this is not the end of the story but, rather, the start of real change.

#MEAction Scotland has been fighting for proper funding for and research on the condition for many years. Its #MillionsMissing rally that took place in front of the Parliament last year was a challenge to policy makers and those who deliver services. We heard testimony from people who suffer from ME and chronic fatigue syndrome; they spoke about how they often feel ignored and unseen by healthcare professionals, who do not know how to treat them because of a lack of information and understanding.

I have been contacted, as others have, by many individuals and families about the lack of services, and I thank them for their powerful testimony. They tell me that their quality of life is depleted, with many being unable to work, and that stress about paying bills consumes what little energy they have.

The story of Amy, a 16-year-old with ME, is absolutely concerning. Her family told me that

“support has been shocking. Initially nobody advised her to rest: she tried to push on and got much worse. Her paediatrician was unable to help her. Eventually the paediatrician confessed she knew little about the illness.”

There are currently no specialist consultants for ME in Scotland and only one specialist nurse, despite figures showing that a typical GP practice of 10,000 patients will have 20 to 40 people with ME. In a recent survey of practising GPs, 70 per cent thought that ME is rare, and 30 per cent thought it is psychological and not physical. However, in the past 10 years, the Scottish Government has funded only two pieces of research into ME—£45,000 was given to fund half of a PhD project, which amounts only to less than £1 per person. That is clearly inadequate for a condition that affects so many people.

The Scottish economy loses out, too. The estimated cost of ME to the economy is £360 million per annum, or £17,000 each year for each person with ME. ME does not just cause a loss of workforce due to exhaustion and other symptoms; it also has a knock-on effect on the families of people who require care at home: 81 per cent of carers are husbands, wives or partners, and 16 per cent are parents or children. Many of those carers must reduce the hours that they work or give up their jobs completely in order to provide the care that a loved one needs.

Those issues are not exclusive to people with ME and CFS: people with long Covid report many of the same symptoms as those with ME, and testimonies have shown similar treatment by healthcare professionals when people are seeking diagnosis. Let us join things together, because the money that has been granted to treat long Covid does not go nearly far enough; it amounts to just £16 per person. I welcome the COVID-19 Recovery Committee’s inquiry into long Covid, which I believe is an opportunity to get right how we treat that condition. I also believe that the inquiry will have knock-on effects. Long Covid and ME should not be treated as two separate entities—we can learn from both and put the solutions in place for both.

The conditions are debilitating. They affects hundreds of thousands of people, and should be treated as having the same severity as any other medical condition.

People with ME/CFS have waited a long time. The Scottish Government should implement the recommendations from the review without delay and it should dedicate proper funding to ME/CFS and long Covid as a matter of urgency. For too long, people with the conditions have been ignored and let down. It is time that they received the recognition that they so rightly deserve.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Beatrice Wishart, who is joining us remotely.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

I thank Sue Webber for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I also thank #MEAction Scotland and Action for ME, which provided briefings before the debate.

I welcome Sue Webber’s motion and the recommendations of the review of the NICE guidelines, which are outlined in the motion. They are:

“that ... consideration be given to identifying the most effective approaches to improving GP knowledge, confidence and understanding of ME/CFS through an appropriate education programme”

and

“that pilot services should be funded in a selection of NHS boards to test the development of specialist services with patient involvement and third sector collaboration embedded in the design”.

The outcome for any rural or islands health board that is selected to be part of a pilot scheme will be especially important to people who are living with ME in Shetland and other island areas, so I ask the minister to address the question whether an islands health board will be considered for inclusion in the pilot scheme.

ME is a much-misunderstood condition, with symptoms that fluctuate from mild to very severe among individuals who live with it. Some 20,000 people across Scotland have been diagnosed with ME. That is not only a statistic—each of them represents a person, a family and a story. The review will not be worth the hard work that has already gone into it if it does not go some way towards improving, empowering and assisting those 20,000 people’s lives.

Unlike other conditions, ME is not concentrated in one part of the population: anyone can be diagnosed with it. I am sure that those of us who are speaking in this important debate know someone who has been affected by ME. Perhaps it is someone who has had the debilitating illness for decades, is unable to function fully, has had to take time off or even give up work, and yet is considered in some ill-informed views to be malingering—as has been described by other members—when nothing could be further from the truth. I hope for a society that better understands ME and is better informed about how it treats the people who are affected by it. ME impacts mental health as well as physical health.

I know of a young person who has lost many years to the illness. They are often bed bound, and they and their family have had to deal with much over the years. They have lost time as a teenager—that very important period of maturing from childhood into adulthood—and those years cannot be replaced. They have lost education and socialisation, and it affects all the family.

As the #MEAction briefing tells us, children as young as five are affected, and peak onset of symptoms is around 13 to 15 years of age. We need to look at the services that are available to those young people, because there is a lack of agreement about the diagnostic criteria for paediatric cases, which means that there is little reliable data on the prevalence of ME among children and adolescents.

The 2020 NICE guideline for ME advises that a child or young person with suspected ME should be referred to a paediatrician and then on to a paediatric ME specialist team. However, #MEAction has found that that process is flawed, that paediatricians across Scotland are not suitably trained to diagnose and support young people with ME, and that they do not have access to specialists for onward referral or for guidance and support. Healthcare professionals need the confidence to diagnose young people correctly.

More research is needed into causes and treatments. Action for ME is working with the University of Edinburgh to investigate genetic causes of ME. Anyone aged over 16 with an ME diagnosis can sign up to take part in the study.

In closing, I would like to reiterate the calls on the Scottish Government by Action for ME: that it develop the national strategy, ensure that the new NICE guidance is implemented correctly across Scotland and support all children with ME to have access to trained hospital paediatricians and community services.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

I, too, thank Sue Webber for securing this important debate. I extend my thanks to all those with ME who have reached out to Scottish Green members of the Scottish Parliament to share their stories.

I understand that when a person’s symptoms are severe, even writing an email can be enough to trigger a flare-up, so I am grateful to all those who have taken the time to share their experiences.

I join colleagues from across the chamber in welcoming the report of the Scottish stakeholder review of the NICE guideline on ME. Myalgic encephalomyelitis—often referred to as ME for short—is a long-term condition that affects around 20,000 people in Scotland. ME is a complicated condition that can vary significantly among different people, so it is extremely important that we accept and adopt some of the key changes suggested in the review. A central part of that is supporting changes in NICE guidelines and ending the cynicism and disbelief that people who live with ME experience in relation to their condition. It is important that we support those who are living with ME by acknowledging their condition, and that we ensure that others who might have the condition are believed and encouraged to come forward and seek medical support.

As we have heard, ME is a condition with varying symptoms that are specific to each individual. Common symptoms include fatigue, sleep disturbance, issues with recovery from physical activities and cognitive issues around memory and concentration. The severity and prevalence of symptoms can vary widely from individual to individual.

There is no specific test to diagnose ME, which makes diagnosis and treatment difficult for many people. Again, I underscore the importance of having a debate on the issue. Post pandemic, now is a vital time to advance the discussion around ME in the public domain. I am pleased to see the Government’s statement regarding the review, and I welcome its support for the NICE guideline.

I would like to focus on the experience of some of my constituents in Central Scotland. One theme that emerged from constituents is the lack of belief among healthcare professionals in patients’ ability to advocate for their own healthcare. Even though the new NICE guideline on ME, which was published almost two years ago, advised against use of treatments including graded exercise therapy, some patients with ME are still being recommended that treatment by doctors in Scotland. One woman described how, during her first appointment in June 2022, the doctor said that he knew that graded exercise therapy got a bad rap, but that it could be effective for some people. When she replied that she would never engage in graded exercise therapy because her daughter’s ME had become severe due to constant pressure on her to do more and to push herself beyond her energy limits, the doctor justified his advice with what the patient believed was further misinformation about deconditioning. That is just one example from many stories of patients who feel that they have little choice but either to accept advice, even if it goes against the research that has been produced by charities that have campaigned on ME, or to be labelled as refusing to engage with their care.

When people with ME need to become their own best advocate, they become less trusting that our healthcare system will acknowledge and address their medical needs. We still have a long way to go in understanding how patients can manage ME long term and avoid issues continuing to appear. I would appreciate the minister outlining actions that have been taken, or are due to be taken, on the report’s recommendation that pilots be funded in various health boards to develop specialist services. I am pleased that patient involvement will be an important part of that work; I fully support that and the third sector collaboration that is to be embedded in the design.

I thank #MEAction Scotland for all the work that it is doing to support individuals with ME. Its advocacy and policy work have done much to give the debate greater prominence, and for the betterment of individuals who live with the condition.

However, we should be clear that ME is not a rare condition: its prevalence is four in 1,000 people in Scotland. It is vital that we begin to acknowledge that the condition is prevalent across the population and that we build in support measures for people to come forward and gain the diagnosis and support that they need.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

D

ue to the number of members who wish to speak in the debate, I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. I invite Sue Webber to move the motion.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[

Sue Webber

]

Motion agreed to.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I think that that took

Ms Webber by surprise, but she coped well.

I congratulate the member on securing the debate. I remember as far back as the days when ME was labelled “yuppie disease”, with the inference that it was a middle-class condition—at best psychosomatic and, at worst, just plain, privileged self-indulgence. Thank goodness that we have moved on, albeit not enough, and that ME is recognised by more people as a neurological condition.

It is certainly recognised as a neurological condition on the NHS Inform website, which says:

“Myalgic encephalomyelitis

(ME) or chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a long term (chronic) neurological condition that affects the nervous and immune systems.

People with ME/CFS experience severe pain and fatigue ... when the body is not able to recover after using even small amounts of energy.”

The condition

“feels very different from ordinary tiredness. It might take a day or 2 to kick in after physical, mental, or emotional exertion ... It doesn’t go away with sleep or rest and affects everyday life ... The symptoms ... vary from person to person.”

Sometimes,

“you’ll be able to do some normal everyday activities. At other times, symptoms may get worse, affecting your daily life.”

Some

“physical or mental activities, or combinations of activities, can leave people with ME/CFS feeling completely exhausted. It can also lead to an increase in other symptoms.”

However, the issue, is that

“There’s no single test to detect ME/CFS. A diagnosis is made after other possible known causes for symptoms have been excluded.”

I support the comments that long Covid might have opened up more minds to the condition, whose varying impacts add to the complexities in diagnosis and around treatment—if suitable—and both physical and emotional support.

I, too, will give examples. I recall a colleague many years ago who suffered from ME when little was known about it. By way of explanation of how the condition impacted him, he told me how he could shave normally one day but could barely move the next, as if his internal electric circuitry had rebelled. The dramatic changes from one day to the next that the condition can bring means that people sometimes accuse others—wrongly—of faking it, or as Sue Webber said, of malingering.

I have the consent of a constituent to relay her experience and that of her son. She wrote:

“I’m happy for you to use my story if it’s anonymous, as in ‘a constituent’, or first name only, please. This is more for my son’s privacy than my own. Here is our story in short. When my son was 14, his life changed dramatically. He had been academically gifted, sporty and generally a social and happy boy who enjoyed life. He came down with ‘a bug’ that he never recovered from, and was later diagnosed with CFS/ME. For two years, he was housebound and unable to go further than our back garden, too unwell to attend school and isolated from friends. My son was offered no treatment and support was almost non-existent. I gave up my job to look after him. Everything was a struggle as this condition is hugely misunderstood. CFS/ME is much more than debilitating fatigue. He also suffers muscle aches, stomach pain, headaches, cognitive fog which makes learning very difficult, sleep disturbance and the fatigue affects everything he does. I spend my time caring for him and researching possible treatment or supplements that could help his recovery even a little. We’re now 4 years in and we have no support apart from a private specialist that we fund ourselves. We have spent thousands over the past few years on private consultations, supplements and medications to help his condition. Recovery is slow and costly, isolating and lonely.”

I note the complexities of the condition and I look forward to hearing the minister’s response to members’ contributions. I thank the member for bringing this important debate to the chamber. We have debated ME a few times, but we need to keep alert to the issue.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

First, I congratulate my colleague Sue Webber on bringing this member’s debate to the chamber today. As we have already heard, myalgic—I will not even try to pronounce it; we all know what I am talking about. Chronic fatigue syndrome is a complex medical condition that affects around a quarter of a million people in the United Kingdom, with around 20,000 people in Scotland living with the condition.

The Scottish Government commissioned a report that seeks to improve medical education and raise awareness of this devastating neurological condition. It is really important that clear and fit-for-purpose treatment and support pathways are in place to ensure that everything is done to provide the most appropriate support for everyone who presents with ME symptoms. I agree with other members, including Jackie Baillie, that not enough is being done at the moment.

Symptoms of ME are similar to, and have the same impact as, long Covid, which affects an estimated 192,000 people in the UK. It is understood that, for the majority of people with ME or CFS, the trigger that led to long-term disability was also a viral infection.

The report recommends that

“Pilot services are funded in a selection of NHS boards to test the development of specialist services with patient involvement and third sector collaboration embedded in the design.”

I hope that NHS Dumfries and Galloway gets involved in such a move.

The charity Action for ME provides much-needed support for people of all ages, including healthcare services, as well as funding and carrying out research into the condition. Alongside providing targeted information, support, healthcare services and advocacy to children, young people and adults with ME, it offers peer support services that reduce the isolation that often comes with the condition.

That brings me to the notable work that is being carried out in my constituency by the Dumfries and Galloway ME and Fibromyalgia Network. I have met the group on a couple of occasions and they are an inspiring bunch. It is heartbreaking to hear how the condition has completely taken over their lives and how young and not so young people who were once physically fit and active in work and leisure struggle daily with debilitating symptoms.

I remember a period in my early 20s when I faced similar symptoms. Thankfully, it was short lived. However, I remember going out to move cattle and ending up lying in the gutter sobbing because of the feeling of absolute despair at not being able to do anything and having no idea why. The frustration was overpowering.

The board of trustees of the DGMEFM Network is entirely made up of volunteers. Each comes with varied life and work experience and provides invaluable help in running the network. The charity, led by its chair, Eileen Longworth, has approaching 400 members and a further 430 members on its informative Facebook page, which allows people living with the condition to socialise with each other whenever they want to and are able to. Crucially, it also allows them to swap experiences and information.

In the past year, the network has been fortunate enough to secure £6,000 from the community mental health and wellbeing fund to start a range of projects locally, including free soup and sandwich facilities at its pop-up meetings. As the organisation moves forward, regular face-to-face meetings are beginning to start again. A Zoom facility will enable it to stage hybrid social meetings, where attendance can be virtual or in person. That will enable network members to attend no matter their situation. During the pandemic, Zoom was invaluable in cutting down the feeling of isolation for many network members across the region. The funding will allow the group to continue to allow those who are unable to attend in person to participate in craft workshops and to implement wellbeing workshops with a range of topics from mindfulness and yoga to soap making and calligraphy. Other outstanding work carried out by the network includes providing access to available services and valuable advice on where people can seek out support.

I will finish with the words from one member of the group:

“I have been off sick for months and feel very isolated and like I’m missing out on the fun bits of life.”

The network

“really boosted my mood, self-esteem and I felt like going for a walk afterwards because I felt much better.”

As members can see, the friendship, support and kindness that such a network can bring goes a long way to improving people’s lives. My thanks go to everyone—all the volunteers, including those who live with those awful conditions—who goes the extra mile every day to help make people’s lives a little bit better.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I congratulate Sue Webber on leading the debate so well and thank the Government—that is not something that I regularly do—for commissioning the independent review.

A friend told me the story of an encounter this week. He was out campaigning and met a voter on the doors. The voter looked completely drained and utterly exhausted. He went through his usual spiel, but she stopped him mid-flow. She said that she was drained and exhausted, and that she could no longer talk or stand. She could not even take a leaflet because she would not be able to concentrate for long enough to read it. How anybody could resist a Liberal Democrat leaflet with a good bar chart on it is beyond me. However, the inability to concentrate is apparently one of the symptoms of the condition.

That epitomises the all-consuming nature of the condition: it is largely invisible, but it brings down healthy, active people. For too long, they have not been believed, but they are being believed now. We do not have to stand for the current level of services that are in place; we can match our belief in those people with the level of service that they deserve.

One nurse is leading the way. Keith Anderson, who works at the Ladybank clinic in my constituency, provides Scotland’s only specialist nurse-led service for patients with ME/CFS. Keith devises individual management plans for patients, with appropriate therapies that are based on energy conservation, activity management, relaxation techniques, sleep regulation, pain relief, lifting depression and anger and goal setting. He also uses some aspects of cognitive behavioural therapy in some cases.

Those therapies may be given individually or in groups, at home or in a specialist clinic. Keith has links with the social work department for the provision of useful equipment, respite care, home help, personal care and much more. He can refer patients to home and community education services, and to disability advisers at university and college.

Keith also has contacts with the Department for Work and Pensions regarding benefits, welfare rights, jobcentres, occupational health and so much more, including, importantly, with paediatric and family support units, which has led to the development of a care pathway for children and young adults in Fife. He is—quite rightly—praised highly by all his patients; I hear about him in all parts of Fife. That model of care should not, however, be restricted to North East Fife—it should be available everywhere across the country. Nevertheless, it shows what can be done.

We need to know more, we need investment in biomedical research and clinical trials, and we need to be informed by the research priorities that were set out by the James Lind Alliance priority setting partnership for ME in 2022.

We can do so much more, but there are examples of care. Good work has been done. For example, great work is being done in Dumfries and Galloway by the group that Finlay Carson mentioned. Sue Webber is right that funding is required—we need it to improve services, and it needs to be guaranteed for the long term. That funding should be available for people who have been left behind for far too long.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I speak in this debate simply to give voice to constituents who have contacted me to describe their condition, because I think that hearing their words in the chamber is very important. Their voices have to be heard.

First, I refer to the story of David, who wrote to me to say:

“I am speaking up for my wife and daughter who both have ME. My daughter has suffered with ME for more than 4 years. This illness has transformed her from a 13 year old that was full of life involved in Youth Theatre, dance/signing/playing musical instruments and participating in sports to someone confined to her bed 24/7; sensitive to light, heat and noise and debilitated by pain and brain fog.

We have experienced the lack of understanding within NHS due to previous NICE guidelines, lack of GP and consultant knowledge of ME and the related illnesses. Initially my daughter was offered cognitive behavioural therapy, and graded exercise therapy. Neither addressed her symptoms. It was only when able to participate in online consultations with specialists in England that we were able to make progress in diagnoses and have started to address some of the symptoms that have caused the decline in her health.

Although unable to participate in education she has also experienced a failure to provide suitable alternatives to in person schooling. Despite the pandemic the online offering for schooling for those who physically cannot attend school due to illness has still to be developed.”

I am grateful to David for sharing that story with me, and I am privileged to share it with members today.

I also received the following testimony from Jules, who said:

“For over ten years I was a therapist and devoted my life to helping others as best I could.

I first became ill but kept going and put it down to general aches and pains. I finally had to give up what I loved with a final diagnosis of severe ME.

I’ve been to psychology to be told it’s all in my head, pain management to be told to push through the pain and physiotherapy who told me my muscles were so weak there was nothing they could do!

I’ve been on so many prescribed medications and vitamins; I was taking in excess of 22 tablets a day and yet I would still crash.

I am 90% house and bed bound and my GP has exhausted all avenues for me therefore—as I was told—‘you must try and manage your illness as best you can.’

My husband works long shifts and I’m home alone for at least 10 hours a day; sometimes I have to crawl on my hands and knees to get to the bathroom and I can go days on end without being able to bathe or shower as I’m just too exhausted to move!

I feel like so many others that we are just left to rot; I feel like my mental health is now suffering as I become more and more isolated from society and there’s no one to help me and many others just like me.

I am severely fatigued to the point that I cannot stand upright otherwise I get so dizzy I’m about to faint. I also have severe laboured breathing but there’s nothing recommended but rest and resting doesn’t cure ME.

I don’t wallow in self-pity. I spend what time I can online being an advocate for Action for ME and whenever I can, I offer support to other members of the social media groups I am in and share my stories and experiences.

I have a devoted and caring husband who does everything he physically can to look after me but it’s tough when I’m home alone for so long with no care.

I try to do what I can to keep my spirits up but on days when I crash for no reason and I can’t watch TV, or read a book, I have to have my curtains drawn and be in a darkroom. Sometimes I even need soft silicone earplugs to block out any noise as I get cognitive dysfunction too!

This is not living Stephen this is just existing!”

The words of David and Jules are a plea to the minister to act now on the independent report that she has in her hands.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call the minister, Maree Todd, to respond to the debate.

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I am pleased to respond to this important motion on behalf of the Government. I hope that, if I speak quickly, I will be able to respond to all the issues that have been raised.

I welcome today’s debate and I am grateful to everyone who has contributed their time and energy to it, and to the members of the public who have joined us in the public gallery. I am particularly grateful for the testimonies that we have heard from those with lived experience. As a minister, it is a powerful experience to hear the voices of the people of Scotland talking directly to Government.

It is clear from the voices that we have heard this afternoon that many people with ME/CFS have felt stigmatised or disbelieved by those who do not understand their condition. Therefore, the first thing that I have to say is that I want that stigma and disbelief to end. We have made a visible commitment to supporting the recent changes to the ME/CFS guidance, and we continue to work to raise awareness of the condition and the impact on those who live with it.

It is also clear that there remains much to do in further co-ordinating the care of people with ME/CFS, and we are working hard to progress that. We want to get it right for people, wherever they are in Scotland. I assure those living with ME/CFS that we are listening, and we hear you.

We know that it is critical that we listen to our stakeholders about what changes would be most impactful. That is why, last summer, we commissioned an independent stakeholder review of the NICE ME/CFS guideline. In doing so, we captured the input of the third sector, lived experience and clinical partners on how we drive forward the implementation of the guideline recommendations in Scotland. We specifically solicited views from parents and carers in that exercise because we absolutely recognise the importance of good-quality care and the right to education for young people living with ME/CFS.

Our neurological care and support framework is a five-year national strategy to improve care for people with neurological conditions, including ME/CFS. Through the framework, we have spent more than £2.1 million over the past two years on improving neurological care across Scotland. We have also continued to work with our UK Government counterparts to explore areas of shared interest on ME/CFS, and have contributed to the production of the UK action plan for ME/CFS, which will be produced shortly.

We are fully supportive of the NICE guideline on ME/CFS, and in order to raise awareness, our national clinical director took the step of writing to all health boards to highlight the guideline and key changes in practice regarding graded exercise therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy. I wrote a similar letter to the Scottish board for academic medicine, which cascaded the information to Scottish medical schools.

I am pleased to say that we have partially updated the Scottish good practice statement on ME/CFS to insert the key changes in practice from the NICE guideline, and we will publish that on the Scottish Government’s website this month.? It is not a comprehensive rewrite but rather a first step in creating a living document that is situated with us and can be further reviewed and updated with partners.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

Nearly 22 years ago, Merryn Fergusson, the wife of our greatly missed former Presiding Officer, Sir Alex Fergusson, wrote a book

about her son Chris,

entitled “What is Wrong with ME—

A Case of Childhood Myalgic Encephalomyelitis: The Illness and the Controversy”, which looks at problems and misunderstandings around ME going back to the 1930s. Little progress has been made since that book was written. When does the minister expect fit-for-purpose care pathways to be in place in every health board in Scotland to ensure that we do not leave people behind and so that they get the treatment that they need?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I absolutely agree that progress has been slow. As we have all articulated, one of the blocks is the level of stigma and disbelief experienced by people with ME, although I believe that we are overcoming that particular hurdle.

We are currently liaising and working with the Royal College of General Practitioners Scotland on how to make progress on the condition, and how to the disseminate and promote the guidance.

We have heard a lot in the debate about the desire for specialist ME/CFS services. ME/CFS can present a broad range of symptoms and we know there is no one-size-fits-all response. We want people to be able to access care in a setting that is appropriate and as close to home as possible.

Our strengthening of Scotland’s primary care workforce through the recruitment of multidisciplinary teams is making it easier for people to access that kind of care and support. We have now recruited more than 3,000 professionals, including community nurses and physiotherapists, with increased funding of £170 million this year to support the further development of multidisciplinary teams in primary care.

By listening to what matters to people with ME/CFS, and using the principles of realistic medicine to involve them in decisions about their care, we can deliver patient-centred support and reduce inappropriate care.

I agree with members who said that there may be lessons that we can learn from long Covid that might be helpful for ME. Following our discussions with stakeholders, we recently surveyed all Scottish health boards to better understand their care pathways and provision for people living with ME/CFS. We plan to publish that data by May this year in a report that will review the boards’ implementation of the updated NICE guidance, highlight areas of good practice and identify where further support is needed to embed the guidance. That data will undoubtedly be helpful in identifying suitable places for pilots.

We have heard calls today for increased medical education and training, and I understand the importance of supporting health and social care professionals in learning about the diagnosis and management of ME/CFS. That is why we have funded the creation and dissemination of an online continuing professional development course on ME/CFS for all GPs and health professionals in Scotland, which has been produced by Action for ME and partners. By September last year the module had been accessed 1,300 times, with evaluation data showing that it significantly improves participants’ ability to diagnose and manage ME/CFS. I am also pleased to report that NHS Education Scotland has created a practice-based learning module on ME/CFS for primary care clinicians. I understand that NES is currently reviewing feedback from the third sector on the module ahead of piloting it with GPs.

We all recognise the importance of research for better understanding of ME/CFS and the development of effective new approaches to the condition. Through the chief scientist’s office, we are inputting to the UK Clinical Research Collaboration’s ME/CFS research group, which is working to increase research capacity and the number and quality of ME/CFS research funding applications.

Presiding Officer, I close by saying that—

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Will the member give way?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I am sorry; I am in the closing part of my speech.

We will continue to listen to the human stories and individual experiences behind the issues that have been raised today. We will continue working to identify how to drive up standards of care in ME/CFS, better embed the clinical guidelines and encourage research into the causes of and potential treatments for ME/CFS.

I assure members that we will continue to work with those with lived experience, the third sector and clinical partners to continue the improvement work that we have begun, and to maximise quality of life for people with ME/CFS across Scotland.

13:45 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—

Education and Skills

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good afternoon, colleagues. The first item of business this afternoon is portfolio question time, and the portfolio this time round is education and skills.

I make the usual request that members who seek to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. There is a lot of interest in asking supplementary questions, so I make a plea for succinct questions and succinct answers, wherever possible.

Additional Support for Learning

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to improve access to additional support for learning. (S6O-01852)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

All children and young people should receive the support that they need to reach their full potential. Local authorities are responsible for identifying and meeting the additional support needs of their pupils.

On 30 November 2022, we published our updated additional support for learning action plan, which outlines the progress that we have made and the further work that we will do in that area to ensure that all children can access the support that they need.

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

About 21,000 children in Scottish schools are on the autism spectrum, and levels of educational access for them vary across the country. The National Autistic Society Scotland has told me that local authorities need to be better at recording different types of absences, rather than using the catch-all category of authorised absences. That would better support young people. Will the cabinet secretary look at ways in which that can be done, so that more targeted support can be provided to young people on the autism spectrum?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

One of the aspects that we have just taken into the national improvement framework relates to attendance. An important aspect of that is ensuring that the national agencies support our local government colleagues to look at who is attending school and why some pupils are not attending school, and to assist people to go back to school when it is appropriate for them to do so.

I very much take the point that Donald Cameron makes. It is very important that we look at why children—including children who are neurodiverse and have autism—are not attending school and give them support that is particular to them.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

I thank the cabinet secretary for that answer about children with autism.

The Scottish National Party’s 2021 manifesto said:

“Scotland’s education system should be accessible to all young people. We want all children and young people to get the support that they need to reach their full potential.”

We have the highest number of pupils who require additional support on record—that is the case at primary school and secondary school level. At the same time, numbers of specialist staff and support are being slashed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question, please.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

Is the Scottish Government proud of its record at this stage? How will it change that record?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Of course, all teachers are responsible for the provision of support to pupils with additional support needs, not just the teachers whose role is specifically related to support for learning. I point out that, in 2021, 1,036 extra pupil support assistants were recruited. That built on the previous year’s increase, and it exceeds the programme for government commitment.

On teacher numbers and on pupil support assistants, there is more to do, but the Government is determined to carry that through.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Beatrice Wishart joins us remotely.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

Another impact of Covid-19 has been a sharp increase in concerns about children’s speech, language and communication development. That is a phenomenon that has been recorded by health visitors. The greatest increase has been found at two years old, which is a crucial milestone in speech and language development.

What additional educational learning support in children’s communication development can the cabinet secretary commit to today, to head off concerns of a looming spoken language crisis in Scotland?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Beatrice Wishart is quite right to point out the concerns that exist about the impact that Covid, in particular, has had. The Government has focused on the issue that she raises, and I will be happy to write to her with further details on what is happening on that in education and in health.

Foster Carers (Recruitment)

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

2. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its action to recruit more foster carers. (S6O-01853)

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

As part of keeping the Promise, we are committed to ensuring that children and young people who are looked after away from their own families and homes are provided with caring and loving foster families.

I am aware that the pandemic and the cost of living crisis have put pressure on foster carer capacity and that the situation has been worsened by the widening pressures that the social work sector faces, such as the pressures associated with the conflict in Ukraine and the issue of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children.

Although responsibility for recruiting a sufficient number of foster carers lies with local authorities, we are actively working with key national and local partners to identify action that we can take collectively, now and in the future, to improve the situation.

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

A key aspect of encouraging more foster carers is ensuring that the right financial support is in place. Will the minister provide an update on discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities about progressing the recommendations of the review of carers allowance?

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

I agree with Mr FitzPatrick that ensuring that the right financial support and practical help are in place will be critical in encouraging more people to become foster carers. That is why the Scottish Government is absolutely committed to delivering a national allowance as quickly as possible. We know that that has taken longer than was originally anticipated, and we share the frustrations of care givers and those working with them. I assure Mr FitzPatrick that we are looking at all available options to make that happen. My officials will next meet COSLA on Tuesday 7 February.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Roz McCall for a brief supplementary question.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I note that the minister commented on some external factors, but last week’s shocking statistics from Barnardo’s, which revealed that the number of children needing foster care in Scotland has increased by 50 per cent in the past year, were not mentioned.

I have a similar question. The programme for government for 2021-22 said that the Government was committed to introducing a national minimum allowance for foster and kinship carers, but no such policy has been introduced. That means that foster carers in Scotland live in the only part of the United Kingdom—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please ask a question.

Roz McCall (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

—where carers do not receive such a payment. When will the Government introduce that long-awaited national minimum allowance?

Clare Haughey (Scottish National Party, Rutherglen)

I think that I covered most of what Roz McCall has asked about in my response to Mr FitzPatrick. We appreciate that the Fostering Network has said that there is a shortage of almost 500 foster carers in Scotland, and we are working with stakeholders to explore ways to increase the number of people becoming foster carers. As part of that, we are willing to consider all options that have the potential to improve the lives of children with care experience, including the possibility of national and local remuneration.

South Lanarkshire College (Dismissal of Principal)

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what assurances it has received that the correct procedures were used by the board of South Lanarkshire College when it took the decision to dismiss its principal. (S6O-01854)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Any decision on the employment status of a principal is a matter for the relevant college board. The Scottish Funding Council is assured, and has assured me, that due process has been followed in this case.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

In fact, the college board did not follow the college’s disciplinary procedures, which I have here. The principal, Aileen McKechnie, could not ask questions, call witnesses or challenge evidence and was not even shown any of the evidence against her. The outcome was a foregone conclusion, as I predicted. She was sacked, along with Brian Keegan, the clerk to the college board, who wrote the rule book on college governance and was then accused in a statement of having bullied Andy Kerr.

What really stinks is that there is no right of appeal. The college’s disciplinary procedure says that sacked employees have the right to an appeal, which should happen without reasonable delay and be dealt with impartially. Due process has not been followed, so the Government needs to step in.

The college branch of the Educational Institute of Scotland Further Education Lecturers Association—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please ask a question.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Someone has lost their livelihood. The college branch of EIS-FELA has just had a vote of no confidence in the board—the second time that it has done so.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Ask

a question, please.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

What does the cabinet secretary intend to do? Given the facts, does she still have confidence in the board?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The Funding Council has provided on-going assurance that the governance improvement plan, which has been agreed by the college board, is being implemented. The college is under strong leadership from the current interim principal and, with a new and effective board in place, it continues to function well.

The employment of a principal is a matter for the board, and it is important that that process continues. If Mr Simpson would like to write to me to make detailed points on the matter, I would be more than happy to take that up with the Funding Council, but I am content, and the Funding Council is content, that due process has been followed in this case. If any further action is to be taken, the Funding Council will, of course, support the regional board and the college board to facilitate that.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Disgraceful.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Simpson, I asked at the start for brief questions. I have had to interrupt a number of members to get them to get to questions. I would discourage you from challenging the chair when the chair has asked you to pose a question. Thank you.

Schools (Bullying)

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to tackle bullying in schools. (S6O-01855)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Bullying

of any kind is unacceptable and must be addressed quickly and effectively. “Respect for All: The National Approach to Anti-Bullying for Scotland’s Children and Young People”, which is our national guidance on anti-bullying, supports that. We expect schools and local authorities to use the national approach to recording and monitoring bullying incidents. Local monitoring allows schools to identify patterns, intervene early and provide appropriate support.

We continue to fully fund respectme, Scotland’s anti-bullying service, to build confidence and capacity to address bullying effectively.

Education Scotland has completed a thematic inspection of the national approach. We will consider the findings and next steps carefully. We are committed to refreshing the national guidance on anti-bullying later this year.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

The cabinet secretary is correct: bullying in Scottish schools is not acceptable. However,

under the Scottish National Party Government, abuse of teachers in our schools has spiralled out of control, with almost 75,000 recorded attacks on school staff since 2017. In my constituency in the Borders, teacher and staff abuse in schools has increased by 355 per cent since 2017. Staff absences for mental health reasons have almost doubled. The correlation is clear. Can the cabinet secretary, having presided over such appalling levels of abuse, provide the Parliament with a plan to fix this problem, which the Government has created?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

When we look at bullying, harassment or any violence and intimidation in our schools, whether that is towards pupils or staff, it is very important that we work together to find a solution.

The Scottish advisory group on relationships and behaviour in schools provides advice and guidance to ministers on improving relationships. That is where we work together with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, representatives from local authorities and professional associations to ensure that we provide evidenced advice and guidance in order to get that right.

I would be more than happy to meet Ms Hamilton if she has particular suggestions about what policies need to change, because I think that we all take this matter seriously. We are determined to keep it under review, as I said in my original answer. The group that I mentioned is the way that we can work together to do that, and I hope that we can work together across the chamber, too.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The cabinet secretary will have seen this morning’s

Herald

exclusive that says that worried teachers have said that “toxic positivity” leads to bullying and fails pupils. A whistleblower who works in a secondary school in the east end of Glasgow comments on something called “pivotal behaviour method”, which is failing, in the words of this whistleblower,

“the 97 per cent of kids who are well behaved ... and doing well academically”.

Will the cabinet secretary investigate the failings that are identified in the whistleblower’s report?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I read the report in

The Herald

this morning. I reiterate that any form of violence is unacceptable. I am not going to comment on specific cases. It is up to schools and local authorities, as the employers, to decide what action should be taken in schools. However, as I said in my original answer, there is a national group that works with COSLA to look at the matter, and we will continue to work with our local authority colleagues and the professional associations to ensure that, if there are changes to be made, we take those decisions together.

Higher National Qualifications (Articulation)

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what plans it has to further encourage articulation from college-based higher national qualifications to university-based degree programmes. (S6O-01856)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The

Scottish Government recognises articulation from college to university as a key route into degree-level study, including for many learners from disadvantaged backgrounds. The commission on widening access recognised the importance of expanding articulation and we are committed to implementing its recommendations in full.

Since then, we have invested in additional places for students progressing from college to university. We continue to work collaboratively on articulation with the college and university sectors and the Scottish Funding Council, for example through Colleges Scotland’s joint articulation group.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I thank the cabinet secretary for her reply. Does she agree that the progress that Scottish universities are making on fair access is significantly helped by colleges providing higher national courses that articulate with degree programmes? Does she agree that there is therefore every reason to further support colleges and encourage universities to develop more articulation arrangements?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I certainly agree with Michelle Thomson on that. It is a very important way that we can widen access to higher education. Articulation from college is a key route to degree-level study. As I said, many learners from disadvantaged backgrounds will take that route and, of course, learners can also study for degrees in colleges that are affiliated with a university.

We are keen to see further progress on that and, in particular, on full articulation and recognition of the work that goes on within our colleges, to allow students to articulate to a university with the full recognition of such study.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Meghan Gallacher, briefly.

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

At present, a key issue in colleges is the inability to properly assess completion rates. When the Minister for Higher Education and Further Education, Youth Employment and Training attended the Education, Children and Young People Committee in November, he was questioned by several MSPs about what he is doing to resolve the issue, and when it would be fixed. Mr Hepburn said:

“My ambition is to do it as soon as possible”.—[

Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee

, 2 November 2022; c 17.]

It has been three months since then, so will the Government provide an update on what progress has been made? If no substantial progress has been made, why not?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am happy to ask Mr Hepburn, who is not able to attend portfolio question time today, to go through that in detail with the member. She has raised a very important issue so, if she will allow, we will get back to her in writing.

Tertiary Education (Monitoring of Commitments)

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what monitoring is undertaken to ensure that any commitments made to tertiary education are delivered. (S6O-01857)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The

Scottish Government monitors delivery through the normal processes that are set up by our tertiary education delivery arms, such as the Scottish Funding Council, the Student Awards Agency Scotland and Skills Development Scotland.

Every year, ministers issue a letter of guidance to public bodies setting out priorities in line with the programme for government. In turn, the Scottish Funding Council has yearly outcome agreements with colleges and universities, which set out what individual institutions will deliver. The Scottish Funding Council tracks delivery against those outcomes and regularly publishes various progress and statistical reports on its website. In addition, ministers and officials regularly engage with those organisations to monitor the delivery of key commitments.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

I am principally concerned with what the Government is delivering to those institutions. They still await any conclusion to the critical coherence review; a raft of actions under the 2017 student finance report; the production of multi-year spending plans, which were committed to back in 2021; a replacement scheme for Erasmus, which was promised at the election; replacement metrics for widening access, which have been on the desk since 2014, when Shirley-Anne Somerville held the post of minister for universities and colleges; and the international education strategy, which is years overdue. I could go on, but I will not.

Ministers’ failure to deliver such basic policy work is holding back the sector. Is the problem a lack of capability, a lack of energy or a lack of interest?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The Government is delivering both for colleges and for universities. That is demonstrated in the budget, the debate on which will follow portfolio question time, with additional funding going to our colleges and universities.

The Government was, of course, elected to deliver on a number of commitments during this parliamentary session, and we absolutely have the firm intention of doing so.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Will the cabinet secretary set out how the Scottish Government is supporting our tertiary sector?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

As I said in my answer to Michael Marra, one of the important ways in which we are doing that is by providing funding to colleges and universities. The net college sector resource budget will increase by £26 million and the universities budget will increase by £20 million. That is important and significant, and the Government has undertaken to do that under very difficult financial constraints this year.

Pupil Support Assistants (Recruitment)

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what action it will take to increase the recruitment of pupil support assistants, including ensuring that they receive fair pay. (S6O-01858)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Local councils are responsible for the recruitment and deployment of their staff.

During the pandemic, the Scottish Government provided an additional £240 million to local authorities to support the recruitment of additional teachers and support staff. We have since committed further permanent funding of £145.5 million a year to support education staffing.

Pay for local government workers, including pupil support assistants, is a matter for councils. Despite that, the Scottish Government recognises the crucial role that council staff play in our communities, which is why we supported local government with an additional £260.6 million to enable them to successfully agree a pay deal for 2022-23.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

Yesterday, it was reported that councillors in Edinburgh will be asked to approve a £2.4 million cut to teaching assistant posts. In an industry that is already struggling with the retention and recruitment of staff, that news is deeply concerning.

Can the cabinet secretary tell us what action will be taken to protect pupil support and classroom assistants’ jobs, given the vital role that they play in children’s educational and social development?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

Clearly, councils have not yet taken those decisions. Those are proposals by officers at this point, but I point to the national work that the Government has undertaken, which has been well publicised, around teachers, and

our determination to ensure that we recognise and protect the role of classroom assistants.

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

Will the cabinet secretary set out the Scottish Government’s commitment to increase classroom assistant numbers?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am firmly of the view that we will not improve Scottish education by having fewer teachers or, indeed, fewer classroom assistants in our schools. Our commitment remains to increase the number of teachers by 3,500 and the number of classroom assistants by 500 by the end of this parliamentary session. We continue to provide local authorities with £145.5 million of annual funding to support that investment.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question 8 is from Pauline McNeill, who joins us remotely.

Gender-based Violence (Higher Education)l

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what recent meetings it has had with Universities Scotland to discuss gender-based violence in higher education. (S6O-01859)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The Scottish Government engages frequently with Universities Scotland on a range of student wellbeing issues, including gender-based violence. For example, Universities Scotland is represented on the equally safe in colleges and universities core leadership group, which is chaired by the Minister for

Higher Education and Further Education, Youth Employment and Training

. The group meets on a quarterly basis and it met most recently on 16 November 2022.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

In December last year, the University of Glasgow published a report on the university’s staff and student procedures and support arrangements in relation to gender-based violence, which found that there had been a significant increase in reports of gender-based violence by undergraduates in the previous 18 months. Morag Ross KC, who led the review, highlighted serious problems in the university’s processes for handling incidents. One survivor said that when she went to the student newspaper, the

Glasgow Guardian

, she was threatened that if she took her case to the press she would be removed from her degree course. I am sure that the cabinet secretary agrees that, if that is true, it is wrong, but does the Scottish Government agree that Scottish universities need to make their sexual misconduct processes open and transparent to ensure that students have full confidence when reporting gender-based violence?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

It is absolutely critical in all workplaces or places of education that both students and staff feel supported to report an incident, and supported once they have reported it. The Scottish Government funds the EmilyTest charity to ensure that universities and colleges are not only taking the matter seriously but acting on it. I recently wrote to all the universities to encourage them strongly to join the EmilyTest charter, if they have not done so already. I reiterate that again today because Pauline McNeill raises an exceptionally important point: we need to ensure that the issue is tackled and that everyone feels safe in their workplaces and places of education.

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

It should be common sense that under no circumstances should a rapist be allowed on a college or university campus, yet here I am again, for the second week in a row, raising the matter. Last week, I was discussing a rapist enrolled at a university; this week, it is a rapist enrolled on a college beauty course. That is appalling and unacceptable, not to mention dangerous. We need change, we need guidance and we need it now. Will the cabinet secretary ban suspected and convicted sex offenders from university and college campuses and will she issue national guidance?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

The minister for further and higher education met the principal of Ayrshire College on 30 January to clarify enrolment procedures and safeguarding measures in that college, given recent cases. That builds on the work that he is already leading, and previous conversations about concerns, to protect students if other students are subject to criminal investigation.

Scottish Government officials are working at pace with representatives from colleges and universities, as well as a range of stakeholders, with the aim of producing guidance to address those concerns. The first meeting of the working group, which has been arranged for 10 February, will include issues such as information sharing across institutions and with regard to people already in the justice system. That builds on discussions that the Scottish Government has had with the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, Police Scotland, the College Development Network and Universities Scotland. I am also aware that the minister has met Ms Gosal to discuss the issue and he obviously remains happy to do so in the future.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio question time. There will be a brief pause before we move to the next item of business.

Budget (Scotland) (No 2) Bill: Stage 1

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-07727, in the name of John Swinney, on the Budget (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Scottish Government, like Governments all over the world, has been faced with a difficult set of choices in setting its budget. As I indicated to Parliament when I addressed the budget settlement in December, the volatile financial environment, including record levels of inflation and a cost of living crisis, have combined to create an exceptionally difficult fiscal landscape. The International Monetary Fund’s report on Tuesday reflects that and indicates that the United Kingdom is predicted to be the only major economy that will shrink this year.

Against that very challenging backdrop, we have taken decisive action to deliver a meaningful and progressive budget for the year ahead that delivers for the people of Scotland. With the powers that are available to us, we have chosen to commit substantial resources to prioritise support for families and the most vulnerable, invest in our public services and support businesses through these difficult days.

A central tenet of the budget is that we have asked the people of Scotland to contribute a fair share of their taxable income—and in the case of higher earners, to pay slightly more than they have in the past—to help to create a fairer society in which we all want to live and where we can enjoy a range of benefits that are not available throughout the United Kingdom. Whether that is free prescriptions, tuition fees, personal care or concessionary travel, the people of Scotland have access to a social contract with the Government that delivers so much more to each and every person who chooses to live in Scotland. Together with our partners in the Scottish Green Party, we are working to create a progressive path for Scotland.

The 2023-24 Scottish budget supports an ambitious path for Scotland that focuses on eradicating child poverty, transforming the economy to deliver a just transition to net zero and providing sustainable public services for the people of our country. The Government leads by example in the bold steps that it is taking to address poverty in Scotland. That is demonstrated through our social security system, which has been developed with dignity, fairness and respect at its heart.

We are committing £442 million in the year ahead to our unique Scottish child payment, which is the most ambitious child poverty reduction measure in the UK. I am proud that the Government has not only delivered the child payment but has expedited its increase, early and above inflation, to £25 per week per eligible child from November 2022. That is an increase of 150 per cent in eight months, and it is providing practical support to families who are most affected by the cost crisis. Indeed, the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts that around 387,000 children could benefit from the Scottish child payment in 2023-24.

The Scottish Government recognises that the burden of high inflation is felt most by households that are on the lowest incomes, which is why we are uprating all remaining Scottish benefits by 10.1 per cent from April 2023. We have also gone beyond the energy support that is being provided by the UK Government to provide £20 million for the fuel insecurity fund to help households that are at risk of disconnection, and are continuing that funding into 2023-24, as energy prices continue to bite.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The Deputy First Minister mentioned the Scottish Fiscal Commission. He must be concerned about its projections that, over the next 50 years, the Scottish economy will lag behind the United Kingdom economy. What plans does he have in the budget to try to deal with that problem?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

There are two things that I would say to Mr Rennie. The first is that the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s projections about tax indicate a strengthening of the income tax base in Scotland, which is a reflection of the strengthening of the economy that the Fiscal Commission expects. The second thing is that the contents of the national strategy on economic transformation, with its focus on entrepreneurship and on the development of strong regional economies, form a foundation for the economic strategy that will deliver for the people of Scotland.

Mr Rennie is right to raise the issues of economic performance, because they lie at the heart of being able to generate the revenues to create the fair society that I have talked about.

Next year, we will support our investment in ensuring that children get the best start in life by investing around £1 billion in high-quality early learning and childcare provision, with a further £42 million to be invested in holiday food provision and expanding our support for school-age childcare.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

From the chancellor’s autumn statement, we know that about £200 million extra for the next two years will be coming to Scotland in the form of Barnett consequentials for education, but, in this budget, less than an additional £100 million is going into education. Where is the other £100 million that does not appear in the budget for education?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I think that that demonstrates a spectacular level of ignorance on the part of Stephen Kerr. Is Mr Kerr unaware that education in Scotland is fundamentally delivered by local authorities, which have seen a £550 million increase in their budget, in addition to the extra money for colleges and universities that the education secretary just put on the record? [

Interruption

.]

Mr Kerr is shouting at me, “Where’s the £100 million?”. Local government budgets have gone up by £550 million and they deliver education in Scotland and the budgets for colleges and universities are up—[

Interruption

.] Would Mr Kerr please keep up with the budget, and then we might make some more progress? [

Interruption

.]

Scotland is built on the foundation of our public services. For those reasons, the Government has prioritised investment in the national health service and I am delighted that we are in the position to provide an increase of more than £1 billion to the health service in Scotland. That will provide more than £13 billion for NHS health and social care services, supporting NHS boards to continue to drive forward our five-year recovery plan.

We are delivering £1.7 billion of improvements for social care and integration as we prepare for the introduction of the national care service, and we will support the delivery of the £10.90 real living wage for adult social care with an additional £100 million.

Investment in local services continues to be a priority and we have reconfirmed our commitment to working with local government, recognising the importance of collaboration, partnership and accountability in delivering high-quality and person-centred public services. The budget provides more than £13.2 billion for local government in Scotland, which is an increase of more than £570 million for essential public services that are delivered by councils.

We will also invest almost £3.4 billion across the justice system in 2023-24, including an additional £80 million for the Scottish Police Authority.

As we look to a more sustainable, greener future in Scotland, our ambitions to deliver economic growth must be achieved through delivering a just transition to net zero. More than a decade ago, the Government led the way with its inspiring climate change targets. As we now work to deliver a net zero future, the Scottish Government will continue to lead the way by investing more than £4.6 billion in our net zero, energy and transport portfolio. That includes more than £1.4 billion to maintain, improve and decarbonise Scotland’s rail network, ensuring that that critical infrastructure continues to serve the needs of the people of Scotland.

We have provided substantial funding to help households face the cost of living crisis. Next year’s budget will continue with that and we will spend more than £366 million across our heat in buildings and fuel poverty budgets.

Protecting Scotland’s natural environment continues to be a priority and we will spend almost £467 million on restoring our peatlands, expanding Scotland’s forests and tackling the causes of climate change and biodiversity loss, which will all contribute to the achievement of the net zero ambitions.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

I have just come from an event with the rail unions that was well attended by MSPs and was about getting the right investment in rail. The union representatives told us that the Government said last March that there would be a national conversation on rail, but no date has been set. How can we ensure that we get the right investment when we are not even having the conversation?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am pretty sure that the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero, Energy and Transport and other ministers are regularly engaged in the discussion about rail, but we will reflect on the comments that Monica Lennon has put on the record because she is right to say that it is important that our rail network and infrastructure meet the needs of those who require to use them. That is why we are pleased to bring forward our proposals on peak rail fares, which should remove some of the disincentives to the full utilisation of our rail network.

The Scottish Government is committed to sustained investment to support businesses and our economy, which is why we are providing the Scottish National Investment Bank with an additional £244 million to continue its investment in Scottish businesses, projects and communities. Over the next five years, we will invest £42 million to boost entrepreneurship by supporting start-ups in Scotland through our national network of tech-scalers and pre-scalers—that will be one of the most significant investments that the Scottish Government will make in that regard.

Of course, as we manage the transition to net zero, we must ensure that communities are well supported, which is why we are investing £50 million in the just transition fund for the north-east and for Scotland.

In the course of the pre-budget dialogue, businesses asked me to freeze the business rates poundage, and the Government has been able to do that. It is expected that that will save ratepayers £308 million in the forthcoming year, which, combined with the transitional reliefs that will be applied to the forthcoming revaluation and the continuation of the small business bonus scheme, will remove 100,000 properties from business rates altogether. That ensures that Scotland has the lowest poundage in the UK for the fifth year in a row and supports a package of reliefs worth an estimated £744 million.

This budget delivers the priorities of a progressive Government. It provides us with an opportunity to demonstrate how we can collaborate successfully as a Parliament, in the most difficult of times, to deliver the best outcomes to the people of Scotland.

I believe that this budget represents a fair and ambitious package, and I urge all members across the chamber to support it.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Budget (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Kenneth Gibson to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

A key theme of the Finance and Public Administration Committee’s report on the Scottish Budget 2023-24 is the need for the Scottish Government to strike a better balance between responding to immediate pressures and undertaking long-term strategic financial planning. It is understandable, given the current economic climate, that ministers are focused on the here and now. However, the committee believes that more attention is now needed to ensure Scotland’s financial sustainability.

The immediate challenges of high inflation and interest rates, the cost of living crisis and on-going demands for improved public sector pay offers will persist into 2023-24. Only today, we saw interest rates rise to 4 per cent, and interest payments on UK Government debt are already an eye-watering £115 billion a year. To put that in perspective, that is more than five times Scotland’s public sector wage bill.

The chaos of the short-lived Truss Government and the economic policies that Tory MSPs such as Murdo Fraser and Stephen Kerr urged us to emulate lead directly to the imposition of £55 billion in tax increases and spending cuts amidst rocketing inflation. As a result, households across the UK will endure an average fall in living standards of 7.1 per cent over the next two years—the biggest fall in living standards since Scottish records began in 1998, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I may have misunderstood, but is Mr Gibson speaking on behalf of his committee or on his own behalf? The comments that he has made in his speech so far lead me to believe that the latter is the case, not the former.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

My understanding is that Mr Gibson is speaking on behalf of the committee.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

Thank you, Presiding Officer—

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Could Mr Gibson therefore clarify whether all members of his committee would sign up to the comments that he has just made?

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

I have to say that most of them probably would, to be honest, in terms of the comments that have been made regarding the fall in living standards of 7.1 per cent. I know that Liz Smith, who is sitting next to Mr Fraser—and who may also intervene if she wishes—was not a great supporter of the policies that were imposed by Mrs Truss, which Mr Fraser was so keen on us adopting in this Parliament.

I shall move on.

Balancing the books this year will be a herculean feat given that, in early January, the Deputy First Minister’s budget was £200 million to £500 million short. An update on that in winding up would help. That shortfall adds to the 2023-24 budget pressures. In addition, the Scottish Fiscal Commission expects resource funding to increase by only £279 million in real terms compared with the latest funding position for 2022-23. That assumes inflation at 3.2 per cent using the Treasury gross domestic product deflator, but the reality is much different, given that inflation under the consumer prices index exceeds 10 per cent. A week ago today, the Institute for Fiscal Studies said:

“After taking account of in-year funding”

one-off

“top-ups”

that will be unavailable next year,

“funding will

fall

by 1.6% in real terms”,

even after the GDP deflator is used. Tough times lie ahead.

Following the UK Government’s real-terms cut to the capital budget of 9.8 per cent last year, the budget for 2023-24 includes a further real-terms cut of £185 million from the UK, even after the GDP deflator is used. However, construction inflation is at more than 14 per cent. The Deputy First Minister confirmed that Scottish ministers cannot now fund all the projects that were planned as part of the capital spending review. The committee therefore asked the Scottish Government which projects will be deprioritised and how the fall in capital spend will impact on the Government’s ability to achieve its net zero ambitions and the delivery of national outcomes.

Following the UK Government’s November fiscal statement, the Scottish Government’s resource spending review no longer provides the level of certainty or the clear planning scenario that was intended when it was published last May. With that significant change, public bodies must manage their finances and plan service delivery. We have asked for more clarity and certainty about resource spending to ensure that there is confidence in the sustainability of Scotland’s public finances, so we seek an updated resource spending review as soon as possible.

Professor Anton Muscatelli said that this year’s budget protects

“certain public services and welfare payments, so serious thought needs to be given to ensuring that growth can continue”—[

Official Report

,

Finance and Public Administration Committee

, 20 December 2022; c 3.]

to improve the economy’s productivity and resilience in the medium to long term.

We often highlight the need to address Scotland’s long-standing challenges of demography, productivity and growing the tax base. When the SFC publishes its first fiscal sustainability report in March, it will be a valuable contribution to how we meet those challenges. The Government’s national strategy for economic transformation must be “pursued with vigour”. We have asked the Government how it is driving forward the strategy and how current financial constraints impact on its delivery.

The SFC forecasts that plans to increase the higher and top rates of income tax by 1p in 2023-24 raise revenues of £30 million on paper but, when behavioural change is factored in, that figure reduces to only £3 million. Such change is not so much from wealthy citizens switching their tax domicile from Scotland to England or even from incorporating to avoid tax; in fact, the SFC asserts that behavioural change is more to do with people deciding to work fewer hours rather than be taxed more. We saw that impact from tax changes for doctors, when Tory tax impositions from April 2014 of up to 55 per cent on doctors’ pensions persuaded thousands to retire early. That was an act of stupidity from which the NHS is still reeling. MSPs who think that imposing an additional income tax burden on the wealthy of, say, £1 billion will mean that an extra £1 billion is made available for public services are deluded.

Behavioural impacts are relevant to other devolved taxes, including the additional dwelling supplement, which was recently increased. We are keen to understand more about the drivers for behavioural change and have asked, as a starting point, for Scottish ministers to work with HM Revenue and Customs and Revenue Scotland to ensure that more data is captured on the behavioural impacts of tax changes.

In spending, social security alone is forecast to cost £5.25 billion in 2023-24, which is to grow to £7.25 billion in 2027-28. The gap between that expenditure and the block grant adjustment is projected to almost double—from £776 million to £1.4 billion by 2027-28—as Scottish ministers work to realise their ambition of reducing child poverty. Resources for that will have to be found from other spending areas. Health and social care expenditure will grow by £1.1177 billion, and there is £102 million more for our railways and £81 million more for the Scottish Police Authority. There is uncertainty about how much might be needed to fund increased pay, which is a major issue across all portfolios.

The resource spending review identified as key priorities digitalisation, innovation, reform of the estate and public body landscape, and public procurement. The Scottish Government committed to reporting the initial outcomes of its public service reform programme in the 2023-24 budget and to setting out proposals for the future of the public body landscape. We seek assurances that the Scottish Government remains committed to those aims.

The Auditor General said:

“There has never been a more important time to consider prioritisation in public services and productivity-enhancing reforms in the public sector.”

We seek a clear and detailed response on how ministers plan to achieve each reform priority, with milestones for delivering each of them, along with anticipated costs, efficiencies and savings. We will scrutinise how public bodies are working towards reform, as well as the support that they are receiving from the Government to do so.

The draft budget for 2023-24 has no details on whether the resource spending review targets for public sector pay and head count remain and, if so, how they might be achieved. A breakdown of areas where head count reductions will be made, and in what timescales, would be helpful.

The committee acknowledges the significant challenges ahead and urges Scottish ministers to undertake more strategic long-term financial planning to ensure future fiscal sustainability, including on public service reform and social security commitments. For our part, the committee looks forward to considering an updated resource spending review, the Scottish Government’s public service reform programme and a new public sector pay policy in due course.

Lastly, I must comment on potential bids for increased spending from the Opposition. Every year—and it seems that this year will be no different—members loudly demand additional expenditure across portfolios. In recent weeks, Annie Wells called for additional non-domestic rates support, which would cost £85 million, Douglas Lumsden sought more unspecified resources for local government, and only yesterday Donald Cameron asked for additional indeterminate funding for the creative sector. Alternatives are fine, but members and parties that demand national funding lack any credibility whatsoever unless they can explain how much they want and where that additional funding should come from.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is very clear that this cannot possibly be the speech of a convener of a committee of this Parliament, because it cannot have been written by a clerk who is employed by the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, this speech of eight minutes, which is, in effect, a second Government speech, is completely out of order.