Scottish Parliament, 19 January 2023

317 contributions from 76 members. The official report.

NHS Borders and NHS Lothian

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with NHS Borders and NHS Lothian. (S6O-01796)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Ministers and Government officials regularly meet the leadership of all national health service boards, including NHS Lothian and NHS Borders, to discuss a range of matters. It will be of no surprise to Christine Grahame and other members that the most recent discussions have focused on the extreme winter pressures that both boards have been facing.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

With reference to the extreme winter pressures, I welcome the announcement of £8 million for interim social care beds to ease pressure on our hospitals. I note that it is to be shared between health and social care partnerships. When will we hear progress about the division of that money between the partnerships, particularly those serving my constituency of Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale, which includes both NHS Lothian and NHS Borders?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Good work is being done by both NHS Lothian and NHS Borders on delayed discharge. To answer the question directly, as the First Minister said earlier this week, we will get a further update at the Scottish Government resilience room meeting that she will be chairing tomorrow. I will, of course, find an appropriate way to update the member in that respect.

The additional 300 interim care beds that I announced last week are on top of the 600 interim care beds that are already being used, and it is fair to say that many of those will be in NHS Lothian and NHS Borders. It is so important that we do everything that we can in facilitating and helping our local partners to do everything that they can to get people who are in hospital but are clinically safe to be discharged back home. Ultimately, that is better for the individual, too. We will get an update tomorrow at SGoRR.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

I was recently contacted by a constituent whose 92-year-old mother, who lives in the NHS Lothian area, suffered a bad fall in her own home. She lay on a hard wooden floor in a lot of pain for five hours, waiting for an ambulance to arrive. Her daughter repeatedly called for an update and was told not to move her mother, who was crying in pain, nor to give her anything to drink. When the paramedics finally arrived, she was transferred to Edinburgh royal infirmary for an operation for two severe breaks. Such ambulance and subsequent treatment waits are inhumane, so will the Scottish National Party Government back our plan, introduce new crisis maximum waiting times and finally get a grip on the horrific waiting times across our NHS?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I apologise for and deeply regret any situation such as the one that Craig Hoy described, where anybody gets a sub-standard level of service compared with what we collectively across the chamber would expect. Of course, if Craig Hoy wishes to follow it up with me, I will ensure that the Scottish Ambulance Service appropriately investigates that situation. I am sure that he understands—I know that he does—that, in particular, the few weeks of the festive period and the first week of January were incredibly difficult. They were probably the most difficult that the Scottish Ambulance Service has experienced.

I have looked at the plans that the Conservatives have brought forward, but I do not see any detail. I do not see how simply saying that a 15-minute turnaround time must be in place means that that will be the case. In fact, there are many similar schemes in England but we can see that ambulances are, unfortunately, queued up outside NHS trusts in England, too.

We are taking a range of measures to improve the turnaround time for ambulances, so that they are not stacked outside hospitals and can get back on the road and respond as quickly as possible. I have seen the most recent data from the Scottish Ambulance Service and there certainly has been an improvement, particularly among those most-urgent, immediately life-threatening calls, but I am happy to keep the member updated in that respect.

Public Health and Wellbeing (Local Government Services)

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of the role of local government services in improving public health and wellbeing. (S6O-01797)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We recognise the important role of local government services in improving public health and wellbeing, in order to ensure that people in Scotland live more years in good health.

We know that prevention is key and that the building blocks of good health and wellbeing include good education, jobs, housing and communities, all of which local government services contribute to. In recognition of that, Public Health Scotland is jointly sponsored by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Scottish Government, with the aim of improving population health and combating health inequalities and their wider causes.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

I know that the minister recognises that many of the solutions to Scotland’s poor health record sit outside the national health service, predominantly in council-funded community activities.

Does the minister recognise that the financial settlement that the Government has given councils requires them to slash the very services for which he advocates and that the results will appear in the poor health ledger of the NHS, thus increasing the pressure on the NHS?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We have listened to councils and are increasing the resources available to local government by more than £570 million in the next financial year. Local authorities

also have a range of revenue-raising powers that are not available to other public services, including newly devolved powers over empty property rates relief.

I agree with Mr Whittle that it would be great if more money were available for all our public services. I ask him to do what the Scottish Government has done, which is to appeal to the Treasury to loosen the purse strings, stop austerity and invest in our public services.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

Councils across the country, including Scottish National Party-run councils,

are at breaking point due to the very cuts that have been discussed, which are made to local government budgets year on year. The minister cannot seriously expect councils to continue playing their pivotal role in improving public health and wellbeing through the provision of services such as green spaces, sports facilities and wider support initiatives if they continue to lose money.

Will the minister commit today to asking the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy to listen to local government leaders, including SNP leaders, who are clearly saying that, without support from the Scottish Government, those essential services—-

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Briefly, please.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

—cannot be delivered?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

As I said in my answer to Mr Whittle, the Government has listened to local authorities and local government, which is why the available resources will increase by more than £570 million in the next financial year. I would like that to be more, as would the First Minister and the finance secretary, but we work within a fixed budget and we have no borrowing powers, as Ms Mochan is well aware.

It would be far better if austerity were to go, and HM Treasury were to provide and resource public services in Scotland and across these islands. That would be better and would lead to better outcomes for all. Unfortunately—

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, please, minister.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

—what we have is a Tory Government that seems unwilling to invest in our public services.

Bairns’ Hoose

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the progress of the bairns’ hoose for young people within the justice system. (S6O-01798)

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

A national bairns’ hoose governance group has been established and extensive engagement with key partners has been carried out. The first national bairns’ hoose standards will be published this spring.

We are developing a phased approach to implementation and will publish further information in the coming months, along with a progress report on our bairns’ hoose project plan.

We are also progressing the roll-out of the Scottish child interview model for joint investigative interviews, which will be a cornerstone of the bairns’ hoose approach to justice in Scotland.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

Can the minister describe the benefits of the bairns’ hoose system in detail? Which emerging practice developments, in line with other European models, will be used when creating that system and its collaborative approach in justice, health and children services?

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

I know that Rona Mackay, like me, has a keen awareness of adverse childhood experiences. The bairns’ hoose represents a child-centred approach to delivering justice, care and recovery for children who have experienced trauma. Services will be co-located, which will reduce the need for multiple interviews by different agencies in different locations, which we know can be retraumatising.

The national standards are based on the European PROMISE quality standards and, as a recent associate member of the Barnahaus network, we now have access to learning from existing best practice across member countries. Alongside partners, we will continue to draw on relevant best practice that is emerging in Scotland, including the Scottish child interview model, which continues to roll out at pace.

Adverse Childhood Experiences (Recovery)

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what it is doing to help recovery from adverse childhood experiences. (S6O-01799)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

We are taking a wide range of actions to prevent and mitigate the negative impacts of ACEs and trauma and to support the health, wellbeing and resilience of all the people who are affected. That includes work to tackle harmful drug and alcohol use, address poverty, support mental health and reduce inequalities.

The Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities have a joint ambition to develop trauma-informed and trauma-responsive workforces and services across Scotland. Since 2018, we have invested more than £6 million in a national trauma training programme. Work is under way to support the development of trauma-informed approaches in services and settings including education, maternity and social work and to support care-experienced children and young people.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I thank the minister for his comprehensive answer. I have a further question. Many care-experienced children have adverse childhood experiences and go into adulthood still needing support. Will the minister outline how the Government is delivering on the Promise and, specifically, how support for people into early adulthood is being developed?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I welcome the question. The Scottish Government is committed to addressing the intergenerational impacts of adverse childhood experiences and trauma. We are providing a range of support to parents, carers, children and families to better prevent ACEs from happening, and a wide range of work is going on.

The Government is committed to delivering on the Promise and ensuring that we do better for care-experienced young people. We must recognise that that might involve help throughout their lives. To show how important the Government considers a trauma-informed approach—

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, minister.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

—in November, the Deputy First Minister led a valuable session with ministers on trauma awareness and how best to support the people who are affected.

Gartcosh Primary School

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with North Lanarkshire Council regarding a new-build Gartcosh primary school. (S6O-01800)

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

We have been in regular contact with North Lanarkshire Council regarding a replacement for Gartcosh primary school.

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

Last week, I was delighted to hear the news, which came just a day or so after I lodged this question, that NLC has now identified land in Gartcosh on which to build the school. I fully welcome the council’s statement, and I agree that it is a major step forward.

The question of a new school has been around for some time, and it really needs to be built at the earliest opportunity. The current Gartcosh primary school building is 110 years old this year and it is not fit for modern teaching. In addition, following massive growth in the population in the local area—

The Presiding Officer

Question, please.

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

—it is very much unable to deal with the current or future capacity. Sorry, Presiding Officer.

That said, teachers, pupils and the parent council are doing excellent work at the school and, against the challenging circumstances—

The Presiding Officer

Mr MacGregor, can I have a question, please?

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

Yes. Will the cabinet secretary join me in praising the work of the school community, and will she commit to working with me and North Lanarkshire Council to ensure that the new build that the community so richly deserves is delivered as quickly as possible?

Shirley-Anne Somerville (Scottish National Party, Dunfermline)

I am sure that we all appreciate Fulton MacGregor’s enthusiasm and passion for an issue on which he has been working for some time. I very much praise his continued work and that of the Gartcosh school community. My officials will keep in close contact with the council to ensure that a new build for Gartcosh primary is delivered as soon as possible.

Rural Homes Commitments (Scottish Government Engagement)

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what recent engagement it has had with community housing enablers, such as the Communities Housing Trust in the Highlands and Islands region, to support the delivery of its commitments regarding rural homes. (S6O-01801)

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

The Scottish Government regularly meets community housing enablers. In September, I met Communities Housing Trust and South of Scotland Community Housing, and I recognise the vital work that is carried out by those organisations in supporting communities to deliver more affordable homes in rural and island communities. I am keen for that to continue.

We have been giving consideration to the funding arrangements of community housing trusts to ensure that they continue to support the delivery of rural homes as part of our work to develop a remote, rural and island housing action plan.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

The Bute house agreement commits the Scottish Government to ensuring that community housing trusts are adequately funded, so that they can support the delivery of our enhanced rural home building plans. The Communities Housing Trust currently has a pipeline of 600 projects, 150 of which are at risk due to the lack of capacity. What more can the Scottish Government do to ensure that trusts have the long-term support that they need in order to be able to deliver on the opportunities that exist to increase the number of rural homes? Timescale is of particular importance here.

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

The Scottish Government remains very keen to work with t

he Communities Housing Trust to ensure that deliverable projects are implemented and to ensure that communities can access the focused support that they need at the right time. I recognise the importance of such organisations having sustainable funding arrangements, so that they can support the delivery of more homes.

In a letter to the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee in December, I set out priority work strands for the remote, rural and islands housing action plan, including funding arrangements to achieve that. That plan will be published in the spring.

Vapes (Impact on Public Health)

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what work is under way to assess the impact of vapes on public health. (S6O-01802)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We continue to work with stakeholders, including Public Health Scotland and ASH Scotland, to ensure that we have a broad understanding of the impact of vaping on public health. The World Health Organization states that vapes are “undoubtedly harmful” to health. However, given the limited time for which they have been used, there is limited evidence on their long-term impact.

We are working to review the range of evidence that is available, and that will influence our refreshed tobacco action plan, which is due to be published in the autumn.

Gillian Mackay (Green, Central Scotland)

There are many issues with vapes, including in relation to flavours and advertising, that we should be tackling, and I hope that the cabinet secretary would support that.

As well as being an issue for public health, vapes are an issue for the environment. That is covered in today’s

Daily Record

, which is running a campaign on the issue. Would the cabinet secretary support a ban on single-use vapes?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I congratulate the

Daily Record

on its campaign and make special mention of Laura Young, whom the

Daily Record

describes colloquially as the “vape crusader”, which I thought was a fair name for her. She has done an incredible job in going around the country picking up single-use vapes, which are undoubtedly causing environmental harm.

Gillian Mackay is absolutely right. There is a public health issue, which we are exploring and will explore, but, as she would imagine, I am working with my colleague the Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity on the environmental impact of vapes. We will ask stakeholders with the relevant expertise to examine the evidence and assess what action the Scottish Government and other partners should take. That will include consideration of a potential ban. I will, of course, keep the member updated.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

As the cabinet secretary might be aware, the issue of youth vaping is one that I have taken a particular interest in, and I am looking forward to a members’ business debate on the subject at the end of the month.

Has the Scottish Government conducted an assessment of advertising by the vaping industry?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

We should look into that issue. As I have said, there are a number of issues to consider from a public health perspective. We know that there is evidence that young people who would not have considered smoking cigarettes are taking up vaping. There is concern about advertising—in particular, the advertising on social media platforms, but also the advertising on other platforms. That should be part of the consideration that I referenced in my response to Gillian Mackay. Stakeholders with the relevant expertise should explore and examine a range of issues in relation to vaping, including a potential ban on disposable single-use vapes.

Police Scotland (Racial Profiling)

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to address any racial profiling practices in Police Scotland. (S6O-01803)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

Police Scotland should operate at all times with fairness, integrity and respect, and irrespective of ethnicity. The chief constable has made clear his commitment that Police Scotland must become an actively anti-racist organisation.

In respect of stop and search, the code of practice in Scotland was developed by an independent advisory group and was approved by the Scottish Parliament. That code of practice, which came into force on 11 May 2017 and was reviewed in 2019, sets out clearly the rules for when and how the police in Scotland can use stop and search.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

Figures that were released in December show that people from minority ethnic backgrounds were up to 20 times more likely to be stopped by Police Scotland under counterterrorism powers. However, evidence tells us that far-right domestic terrorism is by far the greatest current threat and that racial profiling is both unacceptable and counterproductive. Does the cabinet secretary think that a reassessment of what a terrorism threat looks like is urgently needed in a Scotland that welcomes refugees and other immigrants? What actions does he consider are necessary to ensure that we tackle racist police practices?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I want to be clear that Scotland welcomes people from all over the world. Over successive generations, migrants and refugees have greatly contributed to our society and brought diversity to our communities. Racism, in any form, is abhorrent and wholly unacceptable.

Counterterrorism is a reserved matter and is delivered through the United Kingdom Government CONTEST strategy. The Scottish Government is engaging actively with the Home Office to ensure that the recently announced review of the strategy appropriately reflects the situation and takes into consideration the terrorism threat throughout the UK, including in Scotland.

The operation of counterterrorism in Scotland is a matter for Police Scotland, taking account of the specific code of practice for counterterrorism stop and search at the border, as issued by the Home Office.

I agree with Maggie Chapman that, in relation to the threat of terrorism and the assessment of it, Police Scotland holds the biggest piece of the jigsaw. It looks regularly at the issues that Maggie Chapman has raised.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes general question time.

Teaching Post Cuts (Glasgow)

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

There are reports today from a leaked document that Glasgow City Council is considering cutting 800 teaching posts. The general secretary of the teaching union the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association said:

“This would potentially write off the current generation of young people.”

Was the First Minister aware that a Scottish National Party-run council was considering such a drastic cut in teacher numbers?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

This is, of course, the time of year when we hear lots of reports about the savings options that different councils are considering and when Opposition parties, quite understandably, make hay with that. Very often, those proposals do not proceed. The Parliament’s

Official Report

will be littered with examples of that.

I have not seen the detail of those particular proposals. Councils are, of course, autonomous in their areas of responsibility, which is something that parties across the chamber often call on the Scottish Government to respect. As my record shows, and as my Government’s funding to councils demonstrates, I am in favour of more teachers, not fewer.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The First Minister’s record is of 900 fewer teachers across Scotland, so I am not sure how her rhetoric matches her record. She says that I am standing here making hay. I am not; I am deeply worried that one of the biggest councils in Scotland is considering the loss of 800 teachers. If Glasgow City Council went ahead with that, it would reduce school staff by 15 per cent: one in seven teachers in Glasgow would be lost.

We have heard reports that SNP-run East Ayrshire Council is also considering cutting teachers and that East Renfrewshire Council is contemplating very serious cuts to education.

That is what happens when the SNP does not fund councils properly. It wastes taxpayers’ money on ferries that do not float and on other pet projects, instead of providing Scottish education and Scottish schools with the support that they need.

Will the First Minister tell us—if she is listening to the questions—how many teachers in Scotland are going to lose their jobs as a result of her budget choices and costly mistakes?

The First Minister

I will come to my Government’s budget choices in a moment. [

Interruption.

] With the greatest of respect to Douglas Ross, I will answer the questions. [

Interruption.

]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the First Minister, please.

The First Minister

I will answer the questions fully. First, on the general issue, I know—and we have seen this week—that Douglas Ross favours riding roughshod over the decisions and powers of democratically elected institutions.

[

Interruption.

]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

The First Minister

I, on the other hand, respect the autonomy of democratically elected institutions.

Turning to budget choices, let me set out the Government’s budget choices. In this financial year, 2022-23, the Government provided £145 million of additional funding to local authorities to employ up to 2,400 more teachers and 500 more classroom assistants. That funding is being protected in the budget that we have put forward for the next financial year. Overall, we are increasing the resources that are available to councils by more than £570 million. That is a real-terms increase of £160.6 million.

Those are the budget choices of this Government. Had we followed the advice of the Conservatives, of course, we would not be able to do all that, because we would have cut taxes for the very richest people in the country.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

First, I asked Nicola Sturgeon about 800 teacher losses potentially happening in Glasgow. She gave no answer. The next question was how many teachers fear losing their jobs across Scotland as a result of her Government’s budget. She gave no answer again. There are 900 fewer teachers in Scotland since Nicola Sturgeon’s Government came to power. That is the reality.

Let us look at quotes about the First Minister’s budget. SNP councillor Shona Morrison, the leader of the council umbrella group the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, said:

“The reality of the situation is that yet again, the essential services Councils deliver have not been prioritised by the Scottish Government.”

That is the reality that councils and councillors, including SNP councillors, are facing across Scotland.

Let us remember that, more than six years ago, Nicola Sturgeon made bold promises about education. She said that it would be her number 1 priority. She claimed that her Government would close the attainment gap completely, but yesterday her education secretary rubbished Nicola Sturgeon’s promise. Shirley-Anne Somerville said:

“I think in reality ... that is exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to achieve—to get to the point of zero.”

Is the education secretary right that the First Minister’s key promise is never going to happen?

The First Minister

Our commitment to substantially eliminate the poverty-related attainment gap by 2026 still stands. I have said that in the Parliament before and I say it again today. I stress the phrase “poverty-related attainment gap”. Of course, we are also trying to tackle child poverty through something that I think Douglas Ross

might have referred to as a pet project earlier: the Scottish child payment, for example.

That task of tackling child poverty and helping to reduce and substantially eliminate the poverty-related attainment gap would not be as difficult as it is if we did not have a Tory Government pushing more children into poverty every single week. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

The First Minister

Let us come back to teachers. The number of primary teachers in our schools is among the highest today that it has been at any time since I was at primary school. The overall teacher pupil ratio is the lowest in the UK. In Scotland right now, there are 7,573 teachers per 100,000 pupils. That compares with just 5,734 where the Conservatives are in government in England. Of course, as I said, we are providing £145 million to councils—

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, First Minister.

The First Minister

—to support additional teachers. Those are our funding choices. That is our record and I am proud to stand on it.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Nicola Sturgeon is proud to see SNP councils considering cutting teacher numbers. She is proud of that. She should be embarrassed if not disgraced. Nicola Sturgeon said, “Judge me on education.” Well, the education secretary has done exactly that and found that the First Minister makes promises that her Government will not meet.

Her failures have left teachers frustrated, disappointed and angry.

Today, schools in North Lanarkshire and Moray are on strike. Tomorrow, it is Angus and East Dunbartonshire. Next week, schools in another 10 council areas will go on strike including in Edinburgh. The following week, another 10 are striking, from the Scottish Borders to Aberdeenshire.

After years of disrupted education because of the Covid pandemic, when the Scottish Government was too quick to shut down schools and limit teaching time, pupils are once again getting a raw deal. All of this affects young people’s opportunities and causes real problems for parents. Can the First Minister tell young people and Scottish families whether education will ever be her number 1 priority?

The First Minister

I will let the people of Scotland continue to judge the record, actions and decisions of the Government. Let me repeat some of that. At a time when the Tories have been slashing budgets for local councils, this Government, in the budget that we have put forward for next year, is increasing council budgets by more than £570 million. We are providing £145 million to councils to support the employment of additional teachers. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

M

embers!

The First Minister

Again, I repeat that we would not have been able to do that

had we followed Douglas Ross’s advice and cut taxes for the highest paid. Instead, we are asking those at the top of the income spectrum in Scotland to pay a little bit more to protect our public services.

When it comes to pay disputes with teachers, this Government continues to negotiate and to seek settlement. Again, that stands in marked contrast to where the Conservatives are in power. The education secretary in England said this week:

“We didn’t negotiate ... pay”

with teachers, because

“that’s not what we are there to do.”

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, First Minister.

The First Minister

The Tories, of course, are trying to take away the right of public sector workers to strike. We will continue to seek fair pay deals in the national health service, the teaching profession and elsewhere across our public sector. We will continue to take decisions that prioritise education and health, which is

in stark contrast to anything and everything that the Scottish Conservatives do.

Social Care

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. Last week, we heard directly from front-line national health service staff, who said that many of the problems that they face in acute care are because of the on-going crisis in social care.

Yesterday, I met front-line social care workers and their trade unions to discuss the state of the sector in Scotland. They told me about the burnout that has been experienced by their colleagues, their fears about the levels of care that are being offered and their inability to provide care to those who need it.

The workers and experts were clear that the problem has been more than a decade in the making and is a direct result of decisions by this Government. They told me that many of their colleagues have quit or retired early because of the pressures of the job, and they say that the pay does not reward their hard work or reflect the importance of their role in society.

Does the First Minister agree?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I value those who work in our social care sector, and I agree that the work that they do has traditionally—not just in Scotland but in many places—been undervalued. That is what we seek to change and address.

I also agree that some of the pressures in acute and emergency care, and some of the pressures in our hospitals, could be alleviated by reform and by increasing further the capacity in social care, which is why so much of what we speak about is directed at exactly that. That is why, for example, just last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care announced additional funding to secure additional interim care home beds; £1.7 billion has been provided for social care and integration in the past year; and we are progressing our commitment to increasing spend on social care by 25 per cent by the end of this parliamentary session—which, of course, will be an increase of more than £840 million. We continue to take such actions.

In relation to wages, we are providing £100 million of additional funding to uplift pay from April this year, having already increased it. We will continue to do that so that our social care workers get the value, not just in our rhetoric but in their pay packets, that they so richly deserve.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

It is important to note that the proposals that the First Minister has just outlined have been widely criticised by front-line staff as being nowhere near enough to meet the demands of the crisis that we face.

The First Minister should not ignore the facts. Social care staff will be paid £10.90 an hour, which represents a 3.8 per cent pay increase—that is, 40p—at a time when inflation is running at 9 per cent and NHS staff are being offered, on average, an increase of 7.5 per cent. That is in the context of a First Minister who said that she would reward social care staff who put their lives on the line to get us through the pandemic. However, in a cost of living crisis, 40p more does not feel like much of a reward to those workers, and it will not address the on-going workforce crisis.

Why can the First Minister not see that there is no solution to the NHS crisis without a solution to the social care crisis? Seventy-one per cent of care-at-home services are reporting vacancies, as are 75 per cent of care homes. Yesterday, we heard that staff are leaving to work in Sainsbury’s, Costa and Lidl, because they can get better pay and better conditions there. Will the First Minister finally commit to an immediate pay increase to £12 an hour, rising to £15 an hour, for social care workers across Scotland?

The First Minister

Those are serious issues, and we take them seriously. However, it is important that we can fund the decisions that we take. First, on the £10.90 an hour wage that Anas Sarwar derides, it is important to point out, just as an aside, that that is the rate paid by the Labour Government in Wales to the social care workforce.

Over the past two years, there has been a 14.7 per cent increase in pay for social care workers. Pay has increased from £9.50 an hour in April 2021 to £10.90 an hour from April this year. For a full-time adult social care worker, that increase represents an uplift of more than £780 over the course of this financial year.

I want us to go further, and we intend to go further, but we have to be able to fund that. Labour is asking us to increase pay to £15 an hour for all social care workers. I understand why people want that to happen, but it would cost up to an additional £1.75 billion. Labour has not set out how it would fund that or what it proposes to cut as a consequence.

Yes, we want to see pay increase further, but we have to do that in a properly funded way. That is responsible government.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

I will tell the First Minister what is derisory. Derisory is giving a 3.8 per cent pay increase to front-line workers when inflation is running at 9 per cent. That is what is derisory and is causing the social care crisis.

The First Minister asks where the money would come from. This Government’s failure to eliminate delayed discharge is costing at least £150 million a year. Its national care service is estimated to cost £1.3 billion—the money that will be spent on set-up and administration should be spent on front-line services to address the current crisis.

Organisations that, like Scottish Labour, support a national care service are calling on the Scottish National Party to pause the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. Those organisations include the GMB, Unison, Unite the union, Social Work Scotland, Scottish Care, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Scottish Trades Union Congress. The GMB told the Parliament that social care staff are “broken and exhausted”. It said:

“now we are giving them a ... bill that does not give them any job security, any value or any feeling of worth ... We want reform—we want to make social care better—but what they are being offered right now is”

nowhere near

“good enough.”—[

Official Report, Health, Social Care and Sport Committee,

15 November 2022; c 38.]

Will the First Minister finally listen to workers on the front line, pause this flawed bill and put the money where it needs to be, so that we can actually confront the NHS and social care crisis?

The First Minister

F

irst, Parliament is scrutinising the bill, and that process of scrutiny is important. However, fair work and sectoral bargaining are at the very heart of those reform proposals.

Calling for a reform that is due to be implemented in future years in order to fund a pay increase in this financial year is an example of the completely irresponsible and incoherent approach that Labour takes to budgeting. That is not how budgeting works. By all means, let us continue to scrutinise the national care service legislation, but do not mislead people into thinking that, if we just stopped the bill, we would suddenly free up money now for pay increases. It simply does not work that way.

Let me repeat the actions that we have taken. There has been a 14.7 per cent pay increase for social care workers in the past two years, and we want to go further. For NHS workers, the offer this year is 7.5 per cent on average, compared with 4.5 per cent where Labour is in government in these islands. Our actions demonstrate the value that we place on those workers. Within our budgets, we will continue to prioritise that, but we will do that in a responsible and deliverable way, in stark contrast with Labour.

Teachers Strike

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Government has taken to bring the strike action by teachers to an end. (S6F-01716)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

As I think that we have demonstrated, not least in the national health service, we are—

[

Interruption.

]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

I suspend business briefly.

12:19 Meeting suspended.

12:21 On resuming—

The Presiding Officer

We will go back to question 3. I ask Mr Kerr to repeat his initial question.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Government has taken to bring the strike action by teachers to an end.

The First Minister

As, I think, we have demonstrated, not least in the national health service, this Government values public sector workers and seeks to negotiate fair pay deals. To that end, we continue to work closely with trade unions and local government partners to reach a deal that is fair and affordable.

That dialogue has been constructive. There still remains a gap between the union asks and—to be blunt—what is affordable within our finite resources, and therefore we look for further compromise.

The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills is in regular dialogue with the unions and with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and has, during the past week, spoken with each of the union general secretaries individually to progress things. There were two meetings of the Scottish Negotiating Committee for Teachers negotiators last week, and another one is scheduled for tomorrow. There is a shared commitment—certainly from this Government—to reach an agreement as soon as possible.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Last week, the First Minister, talking about Humza Yousaf, said something about how there had not been any strikes because—she thinks—he is so brilliant. In contrast, in education, we have Shirley-Anne Somerville and the first teachers strike in 40 years. The strike means chaos for hundreds and thousands of parents and carers and pupils, and yet the cabinet secretary shows no energy or urgency to get involved and resolve it. That is not just my view, but the view of the unions. The First Minister used to say that education was her “top priority”. Will she step in and end the strike?

The First Minister

As teachers strikes loom in England, the hypocrisy of the Tories is absolutely staggering. Shirley-Anne Somerville will continue to do everything possible to reach an agreement with COSLA and our teaching unions to deliver a fair pay increase for teachers.

Over the past few years, teachers have already had a 21 per cent pay increase, which demonstrates the value that we attach to what they do. I think that teachers in Scotland are, on average, the highest paid of any of the teaching professions across the United Kingdom, and we will continue to seek a fair settlement.

The hypocrisy really is staggering. Stephen Kerr talks about the efforts that Shirley-Anne Somerville is making, which are strenuous efforts. The Tory education secretary

“Closing the Accountability Gap”

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to the report “Closing the Accountability Gap”, published by the National Autistic Society Scotland. (S6F-01736)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

We welcome the survey by the National Autistic Society Scotland and Scottish Autism. It adds to the diverse range of views that we have from autistic people, people with a learning disability and other neurodivergent groups on a learning disability, autism and neurodiversity commissioner. The survey highlights areas where autistic people feel that they need better support, including around mental health and education. We have recognised the need for additional work on mental health and have been working closely with autistic adults and adults with a learning disability on this. We are committed to bringing forward a consultation later this year on the learning disability, autism and neurodiversity bill, including on the creation of a commissioner.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

The

National Autistic Society Scotland and Scottish Autism surveyed over 1,200 autistic people, their families and professionals. Ninety-six per cent of them supported the creation of a Scottish commissioner for autistic people and learning disabled people, which would be a world first.

Does the First Minister agree that, although we already have sound policies and strategies in place, we need the focus of a commissioner to champion, promote and protect the rights of people in those groups and to ensure that individuals are supported to reach their full potential?

The First Minister

I agree with that. The learning disability, autism and neurodiversity bill will extend further than autism to include people with a learning disability and, potentially, a wider range of neurodivergent conditions. However, from our scoping work with a range of stakeholders, we understand that, even within the autism community, there are a range of views on how that is best taken forward.

That is why we are establishing a lived experience panel to work closely with us to co-design key elements of the bill’s development. That will include delivering a consultation paper later this year to provide an opportunity for people across Scotland to express their views, including on the potential role and duties of a commissioner.

Key Diagnostic Tests (Backlog)

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

5. To ask the First Minister what progress the Scottish Government has made in clearing the reported backlog of people waiting for key diagnostic tests. (S6F-01727)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

A range of work is being taken forward by national health service boards to increase capacity, workforce and activity for diagnostics, including the use of seven mobile MRI and five mobile CT scanners to provide additional activity. I am conscious that the Conservatives claimed this weekend that there are five-year waits for diagnostic tests and that they described that as “scarcely believable”. There is, of course, a reason for that, which is that it is simply untrue.

NHS Grampian has pointed out that the Tories have misrepresented data that they received in a freedom of information request response. It is routine for patients who have been treated for forms of cancer or received neurosurgical care to have pre-planned and scheduled scans in future years, to monitor their progress and condition after treatment. Those are not diagnostic tests prior to treatment, as the Conservatives claimed.

Clearly, our NHS is wrestling with a number of very significant pressures right now, but it does no service to anyone when the Conservatives distort figures and mislead the public.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

One health board has taken the decision to reduce its endoscopic capacity by 3,500 procedures over the next 12 months. That means that there are 35 people living with undiagnosed cancer. Because of Scottish Government cuts, rather than being able to increase its diagnostic endoscopic services to meet the demand, that board is being forced to cut the service. How can the backlog be cleared when diagnostic services are being cut?

The First Minister

There are no cuts to national health service budgets. On the contrary, we are proposing a £1 billion increase to the budget of the national health service next year. Again, that is something that would not have been possible had we taken Tory advice to cut taxes for the richest people in our society.

Within that, capacity for diagnostic tests is being increased, because everybody recognises that the earliest possible diagnosis, especially for cancer, is vital. We continue to build up capacity and to support the NHS to fully recover from Covid.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

A woman in my constituency has waited a year since her initial smear test, which reported an abnormality, to receive an appointment for a follow-up colposcopy. The appointments that were offered to her in December and then January have both been cancelled. She is not alone, because waiting times for colposcopies are going up, not down, and women’s health is at risk.

Will the First Minister prioritise action on women’s health and ensure that women are not put through the emotional turmoil of having to wait a minute longer than they need for urgent diagnostic tests?

The First Minister

People who need urgent tests are seen quickly. Often, individual cases are, rightly, raised with me in the chamber and, although I am not saying that this is the case with the incident that Jackie Baillie has narrated, and although I obviously cannot go into individual case details in the chamber, sometimes, there is more complexity to these cases than is put before the chamber. That is why I always say that I am happy to look into individual cases.

There is significant investment in capacity for diagnostic tests and for any follow-up that is required as a result of them. That is particularly important around a range of women’s health conditions. We prioritise women’s health and, shortly, we will publish the report on our women’s health plan, and we are making progress with the appointment of a women’s health champion.

These issues are of priority, and will continue to be so.

Foster Caring

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

6. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to encourage people to become foster carers, following reports that only 40 of 400 children referred to Barnardo’s fostering service in Glasgow and Edinburgh have been placed with families in the last year. (S6F-01719)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

As part of keeping the Promise, we are committed to ensuring that children and young people who are looked after away from their own families and homes are provided with caring and loving foster families.

Although responsibility for recruiting sufficient foster carers lies with local authorities, we are aware that the pandemic and the cost of living crisis have put additional pressure on foster carer capacity. Of course, that is compounded by some of the wider pressures facing the social work sector, and we are determined to address that. That is why we are working with key national and local partners, including the third sector, to identify action that we can take collectively now and in the future to improve the situation.

The Scottish Government also provides £145,000 each year to the fostering network to raise the profile of foster caring and encourage the recruitment of new carers, as well as providing wider advice and support.

Kenneth Gibson (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame North)

I thank the First Minister for that response and for her continued commitment to the Promise.

Unfortunately, 691 children and young people are waiting for foster care—up from 461 in 12 months. Over the past year, many Scots have welcomed Ukrainian families fleeing war, partly due to Scotland’s call for volunteers campaign.

Will the First Minister consider launching a renewed drive to encourage more potential foster carers to come forward and help to ensure that children and young people who are waiting to be fostered can be placed in safe, stable and loving homes as soon as possible?

The First Minister

We will give consideration to that. I take this opportunity to thank the people who have opened up their homes to Ukrainian families in the past months. That is testimony to the welcoming nature of people who call Scotland home.

There are, of course, important differences between supporting Ukrainian families and fostering children who might have complex needs and who require day-to-day caregiving, including, for example, supporting contact with their birth families. However, I encourage anyone who is thinking about fostering to speak to their local authority or a fostering organisation. Fostering brings great benefits not only to children—that is the most important consideration—but to foster families.

We will certainly consider all options that might have the potential to improve the lives of children with care experience, and I will ask officials to work with stakeholders and caregivers to consider the possibility of having a national communication campaign and its potential to recruit more foster carers.

The Presiding Officer

We move to constituency and general questions.

Cost of Living Crisis

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

A report from Nourish Scotland has uncovered a dignity gap relating to the cost of living crisis for Scotland’s most hard-pressed families. The research explains how many families have been compelled to select the cheapest food and drink that is available, rather than the products that they would prefer to choose but cannot afford. That is described as “a dignity gap”. Does the First Minister share my view that it is disgraceful that families who are living in a country of such abundant wealth are forced to make such sacrifices?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Yes, I share that concern. The cost of living crisis is, of course, affecting everyone, but it is having a disproportionate effect on those who are already living in poverty. That is why the Scottish Government is taking the range of action that it is taking, including the Scottish child payment, for example. I call on the United Kingdom Government to provide more help to those who are most in need, and to do so urgently.

Sexual Assault Cases (National Guidance for Universities)

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

I have been raising the case of Ellie Wilson, who was a victim of rape while she was studying at the University of Glasgow. Ellie survived that ordeal but was shocked to discover that the perpetrator had been allowed to transfer to another university, despite being under investigation for rape at the time. It has since been discovered that there is no national guidance for how universities should deal with sexual assault cases. Will the First Minister agree to sort that out urgently, so that no other victim has to suffer such an ordeal?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Obviously, I am aware of that case and its extremely serious implications. We take that seriously and will consider what further action the Government needs to take to address some of the issues that are raised.

EmilyTest is an important initiative that the Government worked on with universities and which it encourages universities to take very seriously. However, it is clear that serious issues that we need to reflect further on are raised by the case in question, and I give the assurance that the Government will do that.

Health Inequalities

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The Health Foundation’s report that was published this week is grim reading. It lays bare the extent of health inequalities across Scotland, from the growing gap between the richest and the poorest in life expectancy to the widening gap between the advantaged and the disadvantaged in infant mortality. There is a similar story across the United Kingdom, but it is amplified in Scotland. Those chasms have widened while we have had 13 years of Tory Government, but it is a reflection of the Scottish National Party Government that Scotland’s inequalities remain greater.

The Health Foundation said:

“Understanding the causes is not enough; a radical shift in approach is needed ... Without action, Scotland’s most deprived communities are likely to continue suffering from poor quality of life and die younger.”

Will the First Minister respond to its comments?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I agree with those comments by the Health Foundation. Those are not new, or even recent, challenges in Scotland, but it is vital that we do more and as much as possible to tackle them. Tackling health inequalities is a major concern for Governments and communities across the world, and Scotland faces the same challenges as many other countries face.

It is important that we act in a preventative way as much as possible. That is why the Government is doing so much to tackle poverty—as much as we can—within our powers and resources. That is, of course, the route to tackling health inequalities and other inequalities. We will continue to take a range of actions, and we call on the UK Government to step up, as well.

Violence in Schools

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Yesterday evening, I watched a social media video of a female pupil attacking another at Waid academy, which is in my constituency. To be frank, I wish that I had not done so. I cannot get it out of my head; it was an ugly scene.

Earlier this year, the then president of the Educational Institute of Scotland, Heather Hughes, warned about increasing violence in our schools. I am supporting staff, the council and the school locally. What action is the Government taking across the country?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I thank Willie Rennie for raising that issue. I have not seen the video that he mentioned, but I will watch it if it is available, because I think that it is important that we have a full understanding of such issues.

Violence is never acceptable, and the safety of pupils and staff is paramount. Obviously, I cannot comment further today on the specifics of the case at

Waid academy, but I am very clear that violence towards anyone is unacceptable.

I asked the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills to meet the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities spokesperson for children and young people to discuss what further support to local authorities is required and what further support we can provide. They met on 2 December, and they discussed a continued commitment to work together in partnership through the Scottish advisory group on relationships and behaviour in schools, and to use the behaviour in Scottish schools research as the national evidence base to inform future policy on relationships and behaviour in schools.

We are also investing an additional £15 million this year to enhance capacity in education authorities and schools to respond effectively to the needs of children and young people.

We will continue to consider fully what additional steps we can take to support councils in making it very clear that violence is unacceptable and in taking action to support children, young people and teachers who face such violence.

Protection of Workers

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

Research from the work foundation at Lancaster University has found that, unless it is delayed or amended, the UK Government’s Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

“will put the rights and protection of more than 8.6 million UK workers at risk”,

with women accounting for around 6 million of those who will be most affected.

Can the First Minister advise what assessment the Scottish Government has made of the impact that the bill will have on workers in Scotland and, in particular, on women in the Scottish workforce, and can she provide any information about what assessment has been made of the impact that the bill could have on devolved responsibilities?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Natalie Don is right to raise the issue. The Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill risks damaging a range of sectors, including protections for workers that have been gained over 40 years of European Union membership. Unison describes it as

“an attack on working women”.

The facts that the bill was previously promoted by Jacob Rees-Mogg when he was in the Government and that it is supported by hard Brexiteers is evidence of the “race to the bottom” ideology that lies behind the proposals.

This Parliament has called for the bill to be scrapped, and, if the UK Government had any respect for devolution—it is now obvious that it does not—that is exactly what would happen.

If the bill proceeds—we will continue to argue against it as hard as we can—we will do everything possible to limit the damage that it does to Scotland. However, giving UK ministers the power to legislate on devolved matters without the consent of this chamber is yet another example of the growing—and very real—threat that the UK Government now poses to the Scottish Parliament.

Malicious Prosecution (Compensation)

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

Eighteen months ago, I asked Nicola Sturgeon about the malicious prosecution of innocent men in Scotland, with taxpayers being hit with a £24 million compensation bill. Today, that figure has risen to more than double that amount—£51 million—with every penny being taken from front-line services.

Now a police officer who abused his power has resigned, and a sheriff who abused his power will also resign. The First Minister and her Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans have gone silent on a scandal that contaminates Scottish justice. What does it take for people to be held to account in SNP-run Scotland?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I think that Russell Findlay exposed the motive behind his question in his last few words.

Those are issues that flow from decisions that were taken independently by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service; the Crown Office is independent on all decisions relating to prosecutions. There have been live court proceedings on the cases and ministers cannot comment while court proceedings are live. The Tories would be among the first to criticise us if we did.

There is also a commitment to have a full inquiry into the matter as soon as possible so that there can be full scrutiny and, where appropriate, full accountability.

Partick Thistle Charitable Trust (Programme Funding)

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

Yesterday in Parliament, I met a group of people from Partick Thistle Charitable Trust’s “Accepting activity” programme. Every day, the programme supports homeless people, refugees, asylum seekers and people who are living with mental ill health. The group told me that the project has been a lifeline and, quoting their late friend, they said that it is often the reason why they believe in the goodness of others. They also told me that the trust is facing unprecedented energy costs and they worry that it will no longer be able to provide its current support without more help. Is there anything that the First Minister can do, and will she work with me to help them?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I understand that the issue was raised with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, Shona Robison, at committee today and that she has undertaken to look into the issue and to write to Pam Duncan-Glancy. I suggest that that is the appropriate way to proceed for now.

Celtic Connections (30th Anniversary)

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

This month marks the 30th anniversary of Celtic Connections. I ask, as one Glasgow MSP to another, will the First Minister welcome this landmark anniversary of a Scottish cultural gem and great contributor to Glasgow city’s economy, and will she be going along herself to enjoy it, jig time? [

Laughter

.]

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Will I be going along? If I get the opportunity, I will certainly relish it.

As a citizen of the great city of Glasgow, I am pleased that Celtic Connections is back for its first full live run since 2020, and is showcasing 2,100 musicians from around the world at more than 300 events across multiple genres of music.

I am delighted that the Scottish Government continues to support the festival through our expo fund. I congratulate Celtic Connections on the 30th anniversary of a festival that has grown to become a cornerstone of Scotland’s annual cultural calendar and that continues to raise Glasgow’s profile worldwide as an exciting, cosmopolitan and welcoming city. I hope that I get the opportunity to sample some of the festival’s delights this year. I believe that I was at some of the events in its founding year, 30 years ago—which perhaps says something about my age that I would prefer to have left unsaid.

Road Safety on A90

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Around lunchtime last Saturday, a car smashed into a property just off the A90, near Dundee. Just about every driver in Scotland will travel on that road at some point, and that was the 10th crash at the same spot in only six years, according to

The Courier

.

The owners of the property live in fear that their grandchildren could be seriously injured or even killed when they are playing in the garden. I raised the issue two years ago, but no remedial action has been taken. Will the First Minister treat it as a matter of urgency?

The First Minister

The crash last weekend was extremely serious, and my thoughts are with all who were involved. It is important that appropriate investigations into the incident are allowed to take their course and that we reflect on their findings. I undertake to have the Minister for Transport write to the member directly with any further steps that are required to be taken, once we have had the opportunity to do that.

Points of Order

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. On Tuesday 15 November, in relation to the misleading claim that Scotland had 25 per cent of Europe’s offshore wind potential, I asked Minister Lorna Slater when ministers first became aware that they were using a figure that had not been properly sourced. She responded:

“Ministers became aware of the issue on Tuesday 8 November”.—[

Official Report

, 15 November 2022; c 6.]

On Thursday 17 November, I raised a point of order that Minister Slater appeared to have misled the Parliament in her assertion, and I reminded her that section 1.3(c) of the ministerial code requires the correcting of the record. I stated—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Mr Kerr, if you could just give me a moment. Members who are leaving the chamber should do so quietly, and members who are conducting a conversation should please do that elsewhere.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I am slightly stunned to see the minister in question leaving the chamber as I am speaking. On 17 November, I stated that the utter disregard from certain ministers

“in not abiding by our processes and codes risks bringing the Parliament into disrepute and undermining your position as Presiding Officer.”—[

Official Report

, 17 November 2022; c 27.]

The record remains uncorrected by Minister Slater or, indeed, to the best of my knowledge, any other ministers who have deployed that statistic.

On Monday 16 January, in relation to the claim that Scotland had 25 per cent of Europe’s offshore wind potential, Minister Michael Matheson was asked at the Scottish Affairs Committee when he became aware that the figure was inaccurate. He said:

“If I recall correctly, sometime back in September.”

Both statements cannot simultaneously be true. Either Ms Slater has misled the Scottish Parliament, or Mr Matheson has misled the House of Commons.

Presiding Officer, since ignoring and disrespecting the ministerial code is endemic among the Government, and none of its members feels any obligation to do anything about it or, indeed, to listen to points of order, I wonder whether you might request that Minister Slater appear before the Parliament to make a statement as to why she apparently misled the Parliament, why she and her colleagues feel that it is unnecessary to abide by our codes, and, finally, to give an honest and accurate answer to my original question.

The Presiding Officer

I thank the member for his point of order. As he will be aware, I have dealt with related matters before. I repeat that issues in relation to the ministerial code are a matter for the Scottish Government.

As all members know, the Parliament has a corrections mechanism that enables any member to request a correction to any factual inaccuracy that may have been contained in a contribution during our proceedings. As a matter of courtesy and respect, I expect all members to be accurate in their contributions and to seek to remedy any factual inaccuracies, whether that is through the corrections mechanism or through other methods, at the earliest possible opportunity. All members—[

Interruption

.]

I suspend the meeting briefly.

12:50 Meeting suspended.

12:53 On resuming—

All members are aware that it is not the Presiding Officer’s role to make rulings on the accuracy of contributions; rather, whether each member considers their contributions to have been accurate is a matter for them.

If a member is dissatisfied with information that has been provided to them, it remains open to them to pursue the issue through all the avenues that are available to members.

Mr Kerr asked whether I could call the minister to make a statement to the chamber. That is not something that is within my power, but, in seeking a ministerial statement, Mr Kerr may wish to raise the matter with his business manager, who can raise it in the Parliamentary Bureau.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

rose—

The Presiding Officer

Edward Mountain has a point of order.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I do not raise this lightly; I realise that there has been some delay in getting to this point.

In response to my topical question on 6 September last year, the Minister for Business, Trade, Tourism and Enterprise, Ivan McKee, assured the Parliament that the budget and completion timescales for vessels 801 and 802 were on target. Just four days before I asked that question, I visited the shipyard, where I met the chief executive. He was clear that the budget would be exceeded and that vessel 802 would not be delivered on time. The notes of my visit are available, should they be required.

Ivan McKee’s answer to my topical question baffled me, as it appeared that it was more than a political non-answer of the type that we can often expect. Subsequent freedom of information requests revealed email exchanges between Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd and Ferguson Marine showing that they both knew of the problems before my question was asked. That begged the question: was the minister aware before he answered my topical question that there were, indeed, further delays and expenses relating to hulls 801 and 802?

Through an FOI request, I obtained Ivan McKee’s briefing notes—

The Presiding Officer

Mr Mountain, might I ask what your point of order is?

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I am coming to the point of order. If I can just finish this sentence, I will come back to it.

I obtained, through the FOI request, Ivan McKee’s briefing notes, which had been prepared by his staff in order to allow him to answer my questions. I can only assume that he read those briefing notes, and it was clear from them that he was aware of the delay to hulls 801 and 802 and of the extension to the budget cost.

Presiding Officer, I know that it is disrespectful and unacceptable to suggest that somebody has lied to or misled the Parliament, so I will not do so, but it is clear from the unambiguous evidence that I have here that the minister’s response was, at best, a misrepresentation of the facts or, worse, plainly untruthful. Therefore, I seek your guidance on how members of this Parliament can hold the Government to account if it takes numerous FOI requests to prove that a minister has clearly been economical with the truth.

The Presiding Officer

I think that all members will be aware that a point of order takes precedence where a member has concerns that proceedings have not taken place in a proper way. The points that the member raises are not points that I can rule on from the chair. I have just addressed a point of order regarding the accuracy of members’ contributions in the chamber, and, again, I point the member to the many avenues that exist for members to pursue one another on issues when they are dissatisfied with a response.

Alex Cole-Hamilton has a point of order.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. On the basis of what you have just said, I will withdraw my point of order on this occasion.

The Presiding Officer

Thank you. We will move on to members’ business. I will allow a moment for the gallery to clear.

Fire Brigades Union DECON Campaign

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I ask members and those in the public gallery who are leaving the chamber to do so as quickly and quietly as possible.

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-06671, in the name of Maggie Chapman, on the Fire Brigades Union DECON campaign. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I invite members wishing to participate in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament commends the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) in Scotland for leading the DECON Campaign, whose aim is to protect the health and save the lives of firefighters by reducing exposure to harmful contaminants that cause cancer and disease; recognises what it sees as the fundamental role that research and data play in fully understanding the risks that firefighters face in their day-to-day working lives; understands that in 2022 the World Health Organization declared occupational exposure experienced by firefighters as carcinogenic, a preventable cause of human cancer; further understands that, in the UK, the FBU, alongside Professor Anna Stec from the University of Central Lancashire, has led research into the links between cancer and firefighting, as well as best practices that can help mitigate potential risks from fire contaminants, including commissioning and working with independent researchers to develop a Firefighters Cancer and Disease Registry; applauds the FBU and its partners for producing best practice guidance and training for firefighters alongside the DECON campaign; understands that DECON is the largest study of its kind in the UK; expresses its solidarity with all involved in the campaign, and wishes them every success in improving the lives of firefighters in the North East Scotland region, more widely across Scotland and throughout the UK.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I reiterate my plea to those leaving the public gallery to do so as quietly as possible.

I invite Maggie Chapman to open the debate. You have around seven minutes, Ms Chapman.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

It is a great privilege and honour to lead this debate, which is of vital importance to every region and constituency in Scotland. I thank all members who have supported my motion, and I welcome and thank our guests in the public gallery: Professor Anna Stec from the University of Central Lancashire, and John McKenzie and his colleagues from the Fire Brigades Union.

For many of us here today, there is no more terrifying threat than fire and there are no greater heroes than firefighters. Each of us can perhaps take a moment to rediscover our memories, stories and histories—all the ways in which we and our families and communities owe so very much to those who keep us safe from the horrors of uncontrolled flames, and of entrapment, suffocation and smoke.

In a world of climate change, drought and wildfire, and of corporate corner-cutting and official indifference, we need firefighters more than ever before. The burning tower of Grenfell stands as a terrible testament to the priorities of the powerful. We remember with grief the people who lost their lives there and renew our solidarity with the hundreds who were injured and bereaved.

We know now of another appalling price that was paid for that greed and contempt, with the news that many firefighters who battled that blaze have now been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

Grenfell represents a particular horror, but those impacts on the health of firefighters are neither unique nor unusual. Here, in Scotland, Anne’s story is typical of the experience of firefighters and their families. Anne—a nurse—writes:

“My husband George was due to retire from the fire service in June 2017 and we had planned our retirement; intending to travel and enjoy a new freedom. In July 2017 we were to be enjoying an extended holiday on a sunny beach, instead we were sitting in the waiting area of our local cancer hospital after he was diagnosed with stage 4 kidney cancer, six weeks before he retired. George sadly died in 2020 from cancer and as many fire fighters will tell you, they all know a colleague with a cancer diagnosis or one who has sadly died of cancer and often at a young age with a young family.”

A ground-breaking study, which was led by Professor Anna Stec, has been published in the scientific journal

Occupational Medicine

this month. It is entitled “Scottish Firefighters Occupational Cancer and Disease Mortality Rates: 2000-2020” and reveals the extent, depth and scope of what we can, with accuracy, call a scandal, for it has gone unaddressed in the United Kingdom by research, law and practice.

The study indicates that Scottish firefighters have higher mortality rates from cancer at younger ages than their counterparts in the general population. Rare cancers are often diagnosed in firefighters only when they have already reached a terminal stage, and prostate cancer, leukaemia and cancer of the oesophagus, among others, have mortality rates in firefighters that are several times that of the general population. Other diseases, too, are far more likely to kill firefighters than the rest of us, with mortality rates from strokes more than double and from heart attacks multiplied by five.

Those findings are supported by a four-part study of firefighters’ health risks across the UK and by an assessment by the International Agency for Research on Cancer—part of the World Health Organization—which concluded that firefighting as an occupation is carcinogenic. Both of those studies were published last year and align with evidence from many other countries.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

I congratulate Maggie Chapman on securing the debate.

Following the WHO’s decision on the carcinogenic aspect of firefighting, does she agree that we perhaps now need to look to its being registered as both an industrial accident and a disease, so that support can be given to firefighters across the UK?

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I will come to some of the requests of the FBU’s campaign, but that is an interesting avenue to explore and I am happy to talk to the member about it after the debate.

Firefighters in the UK have waited far too long for protections that are standard practice elsewhere. Many have died waiting, as we know. In Scotland, we now have the opportunity to change that and to bring justice, care, humanity and respect to the firefighters to whom we owe so very much. That is why I am calling on the Scottish Government to make four vital commitments today.

The first, very simply, is for regular annual health screening for firefighters, both during their period of service and afterwards, into retirement. We know the importance of preventative health and the crucial difference that is made by early diagnosis. Let us give our firefighters and the medics who care for them the best possible chance of avoiding the worst.

The second commitment that I and the Fire Brigades Union seek is for occupational information to be included in health and similar records, including death certificates. Again and again, in the chamber and our committee rooms, we reiterate the vital importance of data and accurate information to inform policy and practice. When patients are or have been firefighters, that fact matters. It needs to be known and recorded.

The third reform that firefighters need is the establishment of a just and fair compensation scheme, which might relate to Martin Whitfield’s point. Many jurisdictions, including Australia, Canada, Poland and nearly all US states, have presumptive legislation for firefighters—laws that recognise their enhanced risk and the realities of long-term and repeated exposure. We can learn from best practice around the world to develop a Scottish model, filling the shameful gap in our justice and protection.

Finally, I am asking for a budget to support the practical work that needs to be done on the ground in fire stations across Scotland. We must ensure, as a matter of urgency, that stations have the resources, facilities, training and systems to minimise contamination and maximise health. It is a substantial but achievable task, and the FBU is ready and willing to work with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, the Scottish Government and MSPs to make it happen in every constituency.

Three years ago, in Dundee, a huge fire broke out in an industrial estate unit, the roof of which contained asbestos cement. It is too early to know whether those burning fibres in the air have affected the health of the brave local firefighters who put out the blaze. What we know is that firefighters across Scotland, day in and day out, bear the risks of significant and life-threatening disease. For far too long, those risks to firefighters in the UK have been much higher than they need to be.

Our firefighters put their lives on the line every day for us, the safety of our homes and the wellbeing of our pets and communities. They are the ones we trust to come into our homes. They are the public servants who command the highest levels of public support and respect. It is time for us, in Scotland, to take a lead, to recognise and respect our heroes and to support and enable the FBU’s vital campaign. I hope that the minister will agree to meet the FBU and me to discuss how best to do that. It is definitely time to act.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Understandably, there is a lot of interest in participating in the debate among colleagues. We started late, and afternoon business will resume at 2 pm, so I must ask colleagues to stick to their speaking time allocation.

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

I thank Maggie Chapman for securing this important debate. I place on the record my gratitude to all fire and rescue officers and emergency service workers, who keep us all safe every day—I am sure that I will be joined by colleagues from across the chamber in that. However, that collective gratitude will be worthless if we do not heed the warnings of Professor Anna Stec, whose ground-breaking research has informed the Fire Brigade Union’s DECON campaign.

As we have heard from Maggie Chapman, UK firefighters are four times more likely than other people to get cancer during their working life—it is important to repeat that shocking statistic.

In short, the DECON campaign aims to protect firefighters and their families from carcinogenic fire contaminants. Not only are our firefighters risking their lives to keep us safe; they are risking their health and the health of their family members. I am pleased that the Parliament is debating this matter. It is incumbent on us all to do everything within our power to protect the people who risk their lives to protect us.

I had the pleasure recently of visiting Blackness fire station in my constituency. Having discussed the DECON campaign directly with firefighters, I lodged a written question to the minister on the matter. I was very pleased to be informed by the minister that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is engaging with the research. Representatives of the SFRS met Professor Stec in November last year to hear about the important research that she is doing and to offer the SFRS’s co-operation in that work. I was further informed that the SFRS has a management of contaminants group, which has already made significant changes in procedures, equipment and facilities in order to reduce firefighters’ contact with equipment that could contain contaminants that are harmful to health. I understand that that important work will continue, and it is really important that the Parliament uses its power to ensure that it does.

I understand that one difficulty that is encountered by officers is having suitable facilities to decontaminate their protective equipment after use, which means that they often reuse the same equipment for a second emergency call-out. One of the key recommendations in Professor Stec’s report is for all fire and rescue services to establish and strictly maintain designated zones within fire stations as a priority for preventing cross-contamination. That will not always be straightforward, so I call on the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to work with the FBU at station level to establish designated zones as quickly as possible.

The report sets out some of the ways in which firefighters may be exposed to toxic contaminants, which include inhalation, dermal absorption and ingestion. The report also highlights some of the health conditions, in addition to cancer, that are risked through exposure, such as coronary heart disease and cirrhosis of the liver, among many others. I have a quote on that, but I am mindful of the Presiding Officer’s point about timing. I encourage members to look at the report on the DECON work.

I conclude by again thanking Maggie Chapman for securing this important debate, which allows members across the chamber to highlight the risks that are experienced by firefighters every day. I also thank the Fire Brigades Union and Professor Anna Stec and her team at the University of Central Lancashire. Finally, I thank, once more, all our fire and rescue officers for keeping us all safe. I hope that the Scottish Government can work with the SFRS and the FBU to ensure that all the key recommendations of the report are implemented as soon as possible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you very much, Mr FitzPatrick, not least for your exemplary time keeping, which sets a good example.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

I begin by informing members that I have a commitment to attend an event at Glasgow airport this afternoon, which means that I am unable to stay for the duration of Maggie Chapman’s important debate. I mean her no disrespect, and I am grateful to the Presiding Officer for agreeing to my request to leave after the opening speeches.

The issues that the debate raises are extremely serious. The University of Central Lancashire’s study, which was commissioned by the FBU and is referred to in Maggie Chapman’s motion, is shocking. Professor Stec and her team found deeply concerning cancer rates among firefighters. That follows last year’s WHO designation of firefighting as a carcinogenic occupation.

I know that other members will talk in detail about those findings. I will turn to the two most significant recent publications from or about the SFRS. The first is the Scottish Government’s “Fire and Rescue Framework for Scotland 2022”, which was published 10 months ago. It contains seven strategic priorities, number 6 of which is the category of “People”. There are references to fair work and pay, equal opportunities, new skills and being representative of society. I have no doubt that that is all important stuff, yet, in 37 pages, there are just two paragraphs about health, wellbeing and safety, and there is not a single mention of contaminants.

The other report is the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s “Annual Performance Review: 2021-2022”, which was published four months ago. It lists 10 priorities, number 10 of which is “People”. That section includes almost five pages on diversity, inclusion and other matters. There is a page about physical wellbeing, although it is mostly in the context of physical fitness. Again, that is all very important, but the entire 48-page report contains just two sentences on contaminants. It says:

“we continued to strengthen our approach to health and medical surveillance and considering a range of options to ensure we deliver health assessments in accordance with our statutory requirements.”

That does not tell us much. I do not know what the firefighters here and elsewhere would make of it. In two official reports, which comprise 85 glossy and expensive pages, there is only the most fleeting mention of contaminants, which are likely to be the cause of high cancer rates and premature deaths.

I do not doubt for a moment the commitment of senior officers to their people. Few organisations have such an admirable esprit de corps, which I saw at first hand on a recent visit to Paisley fire station, but I am left questioning why the corporate output shies away from such an important issue.

The bottom line is money, specifically the financial choices that are made by the Government and, more specifically, the choices that are made by Scottish National Party ministers in Edinburgh about how money is spent. Many fire stations are old, lack basic facilities and are in a state of serious disrepair. It is beyond question that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has been starved of cash year after year. Members need not take my word for that. Interim chief officer Ross Haggart confirmed to the Parliament’s Criminal Justice Committee that he needs £500 million—half a billion pounds—just to bring infrastructure up to a decent standard.

I commend Maggie Chapman’s motion and back her specific calls for action on this very important subject.

Pauline McNeill (Labour, Glasgow)

I sincerely thank Maggie Chapman for her superb speech. I was delighted to host a presentation about the report with her late last year.

According to Action on Asbestos, firefighters are two and a half times more likely than other people are to develop mesothelioma, a type of lung cancer. It is an invariably fatal cancer that results from exposure to asbestos fibres. It causes horrific suffering and loss, not only for those affected but for family and friends who witness someone close to them suffer and die.

As we have heard, asbestos-related illnesses are not the only risk that firefighters face as a result of their occupation. Firefighters are four times more likely to get cancer than the average working person and might get it up to 15 years earlier. That has been directly linked to contact with toxic contaminants that are released during fires. It is unacceptable for that to go unaddressed any longer.

As other speakers have said, the World Health Organization declared occupational exposure experienced by firefighters to be carcinogenic and a preventable cause of human cancer, but there is, as yet, no policy of regular checks or screening for cancer throughout their careers. That is totally unacceptable.

The issue is not confined to Scotland. We heard recently that a dozen firefighters who tackled the blaze at Grenfell tower in June 2017 have since been diagnosed with terminal cancer. There is no doubt that firefighters are exposed to life-threatening contaminants as a result of their occupation.

A number of studies have focused on the risks and dangers associated with contaminated personal protective equipment and workplaces and on the bringing of contaminants back to fire stations on clothing, PPE and vehicles. Those studies have shown that there is a high, but preventable, risk of exposure to carcinogenic and toxic substances in fire stations.

As we heard in the presentation, firefighters working in rural Scotland have expressed the fear that they are at increased risk of cancer because so many of our rural fire stations are without running water. Their inability to shower quickly after returning from fires means that they cannot properly clean cancer-causing chemicals that are released during fires from their clothes and skin. I am sure that the minister will address that concern. A report last year stated that 11 Scottish fire stations in remote countryside areas had inadequate facilities, which is a matter that the FBU has repeatedly raised.

Professor Stec’s study and the research that was commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union absolutely confirm what firefighters and their representatives in Scotland have been saying for years: unfortunately, firefighting causes cancer.

I fully support all of Maggie Chapman’s asks. Worryingly, it seems that the industrial injuries disablement and benefit advisory group, which was set up by the Government in 2016, has not met for some time. It is important that we get that up and running.

Having previously been involved in the fight against asbestos-related cancers in other industries, I know that it is important to look for and establish causal links. When there is an accepted causal link—sadly, that is the case for some workers—workers need to challenge their employers and fight for compensation for being put in those conditions. We should make it easy for firefighters to be able to do that, as we have done for other professions, such as shipyard workers, under the mesothelioma compensation scheme. It is a difficult issue to raise, but it is one that we must address.

I fully support the Fire Brigades Union’s asks on the matter and look forward to hearing the minister’s response.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

I thank Maggie Chapman for hosting this important debate and Unity Consulting, which is led by Neil Findlay, for its contributory work in bringing the FBU’s campaign to the Scottish Parliament’s attention.

Globally, 15 million firefighters work to protect people and the environments in which we live and work by putting themselves on the line by entering dangerous situations to take control of fires and save lives. It is an inherently dangerous job, so firefighters deserve our praise and respect for the risks that they have to take. However, we are here to do more than that: we are here to consider what we can do to protect the health of firefighters in return.

The Fire Brigades Union’s DECON campaign outlines practical steps that can be taken to promote the health of firefighters. It is based on new findings that reveal the higher cancer risks that firefighters face just by doing their jobs. The campaign is based on the comprehensive work of Professor Anna Stec from the centre for fire and hazards sciences at the University of Central Lancashire—UCLan for short.

The FBU has been working with UCLan for three years to understand the link between fire exposure and cancer. Together, they have now evidenced that firefighters are four times more likely to get cancer than the average working person. That drives home how important it is that parliamentarians, the Government, unions, fire stations and firefighters gain the best possible understanding of what health risks firefighters are being exposed to and what preventative actions can be taken. The FBU’s general secretary made a strong statement to that effect, saying that the report on the research

“delivers clear and authoritative guidance to fire and rescue services across the UK about the measures they can take to minimise firefighters’ exposure to contaminants.”

Right now, there is a step change in the firefighting profession to re-evaluate how health is best protected. Vital global research has facilitated that shift. Last year, the World Health Organization looked for the second time at cancer rates among firefighters. Due to the work of 30 global studies that had monitored firefighters’ health, it was finally able to verify that they are more likely to get cancer.

However, as UCLan has shown, that has not yet translated into awareness on the ground, as 84 per cent of firefighters frequently or sometimes do not know how to use respiratory protective equipment well enough, despite inhalation and ingestion being main routes for cancer to develop. More needs to be done to incorporate the report’s suggestions so that that statistic is reversed. Facilities must also be in place on site for cleaning and decontamination.

I highlight some parallel work in the welding sector to address the inhalation and ingestion of carcinogenic contaminants. John Brown, who is based at BAE Systems on the Clyde, and the GMB have launched the breathe easy campaign to address the impact of heavy metal welding fumes on GMB members and their families. There is potential for collaboration across sectors with similar cancer risks on how we encourage preventative measures to be adopted, so that more workers follow protective procedures and so that employers and the Government make sufficient provision for such measures in the first place.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I congratulate Maggie Chapman on securing the debate and thank the Fire Brigades Union for all the work that it is doing on the issue.

The exposure of firefighters to toxins during their employment is creating a health crisis. There are currently 357 fire stations in Scotland and the FBU estimates that more than 100 lack sufficient showering or toilet facilities.

That figure was confirmed by Interim Chief Officer Ross Haggart when I questioned him at the Criminal Justice Committee recently. He also confirmed that around one in four fire stations in this country lacks basic bathroom facilities and that some stations do not have a running water supply. In total, 220 stations are in poor or bad condition, 150 do not have showering facilities, 100 lack drying facilities and 11 have no water supply at all. The FBU also claims that a number of stations are held together by internal scaffolding.

The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has also cancelled a multimillion-pound contract for a new command and control system due to financial pressures. Mr Haggart estimated that £138 million is needed just to address those essential health and safety issues that have been highlighted. He also said that there was a backlog of £630 million in the fire service’s capital budget.

Those issues are nothing to do with this year’s budgetary issues or with whatever settlement might be coming from Westminster. The issues are a result of a failure to give the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service the resources that it needs to invest in its capital projects over many years. It is shameful that we are in this position today. The resource budget for the fire service has been cut by £40 million in real terms since 2012-13, and it is set to suffer further real-terms cuts over the next four years.

It is clear that there is a rich seam of research that shows that firefighting, as an occupation, is carcinogenic. It is also clear that the employer has a legal responsibility and that, if cases were taken to court, it would be liable.

The debate raises some very practical issues. From 2012-13 to last year, almost 1,100 firefighter jobs were cut across all uniformed posts in Scotland, which is almost 15 per cent of the total workforce. That is partially due to a lack of investment, but there is also a growing perception that firefighting is not a safe profession and that the pay levels are not attractive. The FBU is currently balloting its members with regard to pay.

The message that comes out of today’s debate is that the Scottish Government needs to make it a top priority to address the risks that are being highlighted. It has a legal responsibility to act, just as the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has a responsibility to put in place a safe system of work for the people whom it employs. Frankly, this situation is not good enough. Firefighters deserve better.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Jamie Greene, to be followed by Richard Leonard.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

I am not sure how I am going to do this ahead of Richard Leonard, as I know that he will give a stomping speech on behalf of Scotland’s firefighters, but I will do my best.

I thank Maggie Chapman for raising the issue in the chamber. It is an important debate on an issue that I have raised in the chamber and in the Criminal Justice Committee on a number of occasions.

We should not be debating this issue as a members’ business debate from an Opposition or back-bench member. It should come from the Government benches, because what has happened to Scotland’s firefighters over the past 16 years is shameful, and it is a mark of shame on the Government. I mean that as no disrespect to the minister on the front bench, because she is new to the role and the Parliament. However, this debate has been a long time in coming, and it is absolutely right that we get it on the record today.

The briefing from the FBU made the situation starkly clear. I cannot add much to the statistics that we have been given in some of the excellent speeches that I have already heard in today’s debate. However, the FBU has made some clear asks, which Ms Chapman reiterated at the beginning of the debate. First, legislation is needed so that firefighters have a clear route to compensation. I have worked on compensation legislation in the Parliament and I know that it is difficult and complicated, but it is not impossible. I want the Government to reflect on that.

Secondly, there should be annual health monitoring for all current firefighters and those who have retired. That is key, because the average age of a firefighter in Scotland is 41, which falls well below the threshold for many of the standard checks for older people, but we know that firefighters need those checks for all the reasons that we have heard today.

The final and most important issue that I want to focus on in my brief comments is investment in facilities, equipment and what I call the absolute basics. I have raised the issue in the chamber before. None of us would come and sit in the Parliament if the roof was dripping and falling down. None of us would sit in our offices if we could not go to the toilet. None of us would cycle to work if there was not a shower facility at the end of every corridor in the members’ block. We would not put up with such conditions, so why do we expect firefighters to do so? It is shocking and shameful.

Firefighters put their lives on the line day in, day out, every hour of every day, and recent high-profile fires across Scotland have reminded us of the tragedy that can occur when fire breaks out. Firefighters are always there for us when we need them, so why are we not always there for them?

I will mention briefly that, when firefighters with the FBU held a protest outside the Parliament in October last year, I went out to see them. I got some bemused looks from some trade union officials but, nonetheless, I was pleased to be there, and I think that they were grateful for my presence. Minister, the reason that I went out was to speak to the firefighters themselves. It is all very well hypothesising over academic studies, but let us go and talk to people one to one. They told me what it is like on the ground. They are proud of their work and their success rate, and they do it in the most difficult of circumstances.

Why do we have fire stations without running water or basic shower facilities? Decontamination needs to happen quickly—within hours or even minutes of getting back to the fire station. If you cannot have a shower or change your clothes, of course you will be at higher risk of cancerous outcomes later in life; we know that, because the health experts and academics tell us that. If we know all that, why can a firefighter not do the most basic thing of having a shower when they get back to the station? We can all do that when we finish work, so why can they not? The Government needs to think about that.

As Katy Clark mentioned, it is about capital budget, not resource budget. It is not a pay discussion; it is about investment in facilities. There is a £0.5 billion backlog, and I know that the minister does not have £0.5 billion up her sleeve to fix that, but this chronic underinvestment has been happening for 16 years. The minister must reflect on that, and the Government must not only apologise but realise what needs to be done to make a difference. I do not expect it to pull rabbits out of hats to find that kind of money, but it has to come up with a plan for how it will invest in basic facilities so that we reduce those risks.

I could talk about this issue all day, because it is important, but I will close with this: every one of us in the chamber owes it to Scotland’s firefighters to protect them as much as possible, but that is simply not happening. We are playing catch-up with our emergency services. The Government must and should do better.

Richard Leonard (Labour, Central Scotland)

I thank Maggie Chapman for bringing the motion to Parliament, and I thank the Fire Brigades Union for supporting the critical, significant and groundbreaking research that has been carried out by Anna Stec and her team at the University of Central Lancashire.

That there is a direct relationship between working-class occupations and life expectancy, health and wellbeing has long been recognised. Go and look at the old trade union banners saying things such as

“Shorter hours and longer life”,

or

“Out of darkness into light”,

or

“The Hope of Labour is the Welfare of All”.

They are a reminder that the trade union movement from its very inception has always organised and campaigned for its members, not just to mitigate the effects of the system but to fundamentally change the system. So, what comes in the report should not surprise us, but it should nonetheless shock us all, and it should shame the Government into action.

The findings are stark: Scottish firefighters compared with the general population are almost twice as likely to die from urinary cancers; two and a half times more likely to die from cancer of the oesophagus; more than three times as likely to die from acute myeloid leukaemia; and nearly four times more likely to die from cancer of the prostate.

So, let us be clear that the high prevalence of cancer and the high mortality rate are caused by occupational exposure, which is why it strikes not only the older but the younger firefighter. Only last week, the

Daily Mirror

revealed that, just five years on from the Grenfell tower fire, 12 of the heroic firefighters who saved so many lives there are now suffering from rare terminal cancers. Some of them are only in their 40s.

Yet, as recently as March 2021, the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council ruled against recognising cancer as a prescribed disease for firefighters, citing “insufficient evidence”. Well, we now have irrefutable evidence now that we have this new data, so not to right this wrong would not only be an abdication of duty; it would be a negation of the truth and it would be justice denied.

The action that we need from the SNP-Green Government is this. First, we need resources for our Scottish Fire and Rescue Service for preventative screening and monitoring of firefighters, irrespective of their age. Secondly, we need the routine monitoring of firefighters who are exposed to toxic fire effluents after attending incidents. Thirdly, we need properly resourced and active joint health and safety committees, but we also need facility time for training on the Fire Brigades Union DECON programme as part of that preventative health approach.

Fourthly, now that we have the devolution of the industrial injuries disablement benefit—IIDB—we should have our own active industrial injuries advisory council for Scotland. That is precisely what my old friend and comrade Alex Bennett—a miner, trade unionist and tireless fighter for his class, not least at IIDB appeals tribunals, who sadly passed away last week—long campaigned for. That is how we should honour his memory. It is also precisely what Mark Griffin is calling for in his proposed members’ bill.

This FBU campaign is about saving the lives of those who save the lives of others. We keep our faith in them. It is now our turn to repay their faith in us. Justice for our firefighters. Victory to the FBU.

Carol Mochan (Labour, South Scotland)

I thank Maggie Chapman for bringing the debate to the chamber. I also welcome everyone who has spoken in the debate and our guests in the public gallery.

Many of us will have friends, family members or colleagues who have been diagnosed with cancer, and we will have witnessed the intolerable toll that that takes on them and their families.

For those who dedicate their lives to protect us from the risk that fire presents to life and property, the likelihood of suffering from cancer is, as we have heard, four times higher than it is for other people. That is totally unacceptable. Despite that knowledge, firefighters still bravely face the flames and take on a job that few of us have experience of. I cannot imagine what that feels like and how brave someone must be as they continue to do the job that they love.

As with so many things relating to cancer and other associated health outcomes, we do not fully understand the details of why that level of increased exposure is so prevalent in this line of work. However, through the FBU’s brilliant report and accompanying campaign, we now know so much more. Even better, we have detailed information about the steps that we must take to protect those workers. That truly groundbreaking research lays the foundation for an improvement in the fire service, the likes of which we have not seen for many years. It is important that we take the report seriously.

The FBU’s DECON campaign is a welcome example of how first-class research can be utilised to increase awareness, to decrease harm and to achieve progress in the workplace. I believe that we should be using that model across workplaces, industries and services. I whole-heartedly applaud the FBU and the university team for their achievement and for taking forward that work.

The report not only provides evidence of the heightened risk for firefighters as a result of what they face but provides practical steps that we can get behind, which other speakers have mentioned. We can successfully minimise firefighters’ exposure.

For the sake of time, I will comment in particular on the fact that, although some of the steps that can be taken are actually very simple, as we have heard, due to the decrease in the resources that go into firefighters’ workplaces, we cannot carry out some of those simple steps at this time, which is quite shocking. I think that everyone in the chamber will agree that that must change. The research is groundbreaking, and we must take those simple steps immediately.

By taking steps such as ensuring that firefighters wear respiratory equipment at all times, prevent cross-contamination of personal protective equipment, change clothes and shower within an hour, and through having regular health screening for firefighters—and, as another member mentioned, retired firefighters—we can hugely change the outcomes, and it is essential that we do so.

I will conclude by remarking on the importance of the study for firefighters and for the way in which we look at workplaces. It is informative, and I really enjoyed reading it and thinking about how it could change the outcomes for many of our workers across industry and services and improve outcomes for those valuable professions.

I thank everyone who spoke in the debate, and I thank Maggie Chapman for bringing this crucial issue to the chamber.

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

I, too, thank Maggie Chapman for raising this important issue and for bringing it to the attention of the wider Parliament today.

I acknowledge the significant work of the Fire Brigades Union in commissioning this important research with the University of Central Lancashire and producing the report that is being discussed today, which I have read closely. I welcome representatives from the Fire Brigades Union and Professor Anna Stec to the gallery today.

The safety, health and wellbeing of all SFRS staff, who work so hard to protect communities in some of the most challenging environments, are of the utmost importance and are a key priority to me. Although the FBU’s DECON campaign, the research and any of its subsequent findings are matters for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, as the employer of firefighters in Scotland, it is an issue that I, as the minister with portfolio responsibility, intend to pursue rigorously, given its vital significance.

Through regular meetings with the SFRS board chair and chief officer, I am fully aware of the research. I know that the SFRS has engaged with the work for a number of years and that it met Professor Anna Stec in November 2022 to hear directly about the important research that she was doing and to offer the SFRS continued co-operation on that work.

The SFRS established its management of contaminants working group in 2018, to look, as we have heard, at potential risks and how to support firefighter safety. The group includes representation from the FBU, has links to external specialists and is supported at the highest levels of SFRS staffing. The purpose of the working group is to look at technical, procedural and cultural solutions to mitigate the risks of personnel and any others who might be affected by the actions of SFRS personnel being exposed to contaminants.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I am very aware that the minister is quite new to her role and that she has been presented with a massive challenge, but does she accept that the research that is coming out makes it clear that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service has significant legal liabilities and that there will be a need for significant capital expenditure, which puts it into a priority category for attention? Is that something that the minister will try to address?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I will give you the time back.

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

I assure Katy Clark that this is something that I intend to pursue rigorously for the reasons that she outlined.

Not that long ago, a soot-stained tunic was inextricably linked to the courage and the dedication of our firefighters. Now, we absolutely know that that soot, along with the aerosol vapours, signifies harmful contaminants. The SFRS has already made significant practical changes in procedures, equipment and facilities to reduce firefighter contact with equipment that could contain contaminants that are harmful to health. That important work will continue.

Many years ago—probably about 15 years ago—I was on call in a communal refuge in Ayrshire when we had a fire. I will forever be indebted to the firefighters who came out that day and to their dedication in ensuring that all the women and children were safe. For two years after that, I noticed the soot working its way out of every single nook and cranny in the refuge, so I know that soot is a significant contaminant.

We know about some of the practical changes that have been introduced, including working practices to ensure that firefighting equipment is properly cleaned and stored, in order to reduce contamination. Operational personnel, who might have been exposed to contaminants, are encouraged to shower as quickly as possible on their return to station grounds.

I know that, in some remote and rural areas, we have limited welfare facilities, and procedures have been developed to ensure that firefighters in those areas have appropriate decontamination solutions. That is not ideal, and I am very clear on my intention to engage directly on that urgent matter. A number of steps have also been taken to mitigate risk, including supplying all SFRS appliances and training centres with specialist decontamination wipes and, as Joe FitzPatrick mentioned, the trial of station zoning systems to limit potential spread.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

I am listening with interest and I take at face value what the minister is saying about the urgency of the matter, but I have not heard any of the practical solutions that we need to hear. It is all very well offering decontamination wipes to people, but they need showers and facilities. If those do not exist, where will they come from?

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

As Jamie Greene pointed out, it is very difficult to answer those questions when I have not yet directly engaged with the FBU on that matter, although I will do so in a few weeks’ time. That will be an extra meeting because of the significant importance of the matter. I will come back on those issues, because I recognise their importance.

Opportunities are now being explored as to how the SFRS can work with Professor Stec on the potential positive impacts of policies, training, awareness and preventative measures, as the contaminants group continues to explore steps to minimise risk and improve firefighter safety as a result of the newly published report.

As part of the wider commitment to the welfare of SFRS staff, the service has developed a dedicated cancer awareness and prevention area in its internal i-hub. That is important, given that the increased rate of some types of cancers in some age groups is significantly higher than just 1.5 per cent or 5 per cent. The SFRS has also implemented enhanced cancer-focused screening questions and discussions—about, for example, skin checks and testicular and breast self-checks—during routine medical assessments, and it has introduced a data collection process to record, monitor and report on cancer diagnosis, which includes details of the type of cancer, age, gender, role, duty, system, work and home location. Given the recent research that highlighted a potential increase in the rate of heart attacks and strokes, I am keen to explore that further and will engage with the FBU on its asks surrounding annual health monitoring. I think that that is really important.

In February 2022, the service also signed the Dying to Work charter in order to show continued commitment to the welfare of its staff by protecting the rights at work of those people who face a serious or terminal illness. It is important that they can choose the path that is right for them and their families, without the additional worry of financial uncertainty.

We will continue to carefully consider any specific proposals from the FBU on the potential for any new legislation surrounding compensation and protection. Certain aspects of the health and safety legislation are reserved, so specific proposals would be required, so that they can be assessed against legislative competence. Should we get to that position, I am clear that I will work with the United Kingdom Government on that. My officials will also continue to investigate the current status of occupation recording, and we will look at options and procedures to see whether the proposed changes are feasible.

I know that capital resources are very tight, specifically this year, and we have ensured that the current level will be protected, but I will continue to discuss capital requirements with the SFRS, including looking at a degree of estate rationalisation to ensure that fire stations are located where they are most needed, in order to cover risks in our communities and to allow additional investment in remaining fire stations, while keeping that research at the forefront of my mind.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

Will the minister take an intervention?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I am afraid that the minister is just about to conclude.

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

In closing, I again thank Maggie Chapman for the opportunity to discuss the issue and I thank members for their considered contributions from across the chamber.

For my retired firefighter uncle—who, because of his very sunny disposition, was forever known to his watch mates as Dark Cloud—and for all current and future firefighters, members can rest assured that I am keenly focused on the issue, and I look forward to working with the FBU on that at our meeting on 1 February.

13:49 Meeting suspended.

14:00 On resuming—

Net Zero, Energy and Transport

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good

afternoon. The next item of business is portfolio questions on net zero, energy and transport.

Any member who wishes to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. Given the level of interest in asking supplementaries today, I make a plea for questions to be as brief as possible, with answers to match.

Question 1 was not lodged.

Glenprosen Estate

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what plans Forestry and Land Scotland has for the Glenprosen estate. (S6O-01789)

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

The Glenprosen estate will be managed by Forestry and Land Scotland in accordance with a variety of Scottish Government policy aims to benefit people, nature, the climate and the local economy. By collaborating with the community and neighbouring public and private landowners and managers, FLS and the wider Scottish Government are keen to lead a partnership approach to land management and habitat restoration on a landscape scale across the Angus glens and in the Cairngorms national park.

Graeme Dey (Scottish National Party, Angus South)

I thank the minister for that answer. More important, I thank Forestry and Land Scotland for its engagement with me,

as the local MSP, on the purchase of the estate and the implications for employees, two of whom secured housing tenancies as a result of those discussions, which also helped to lead to a part-time employment opportunity for an estate staff member. It is only by extending that type of engagement to the wider community that we will, I hope, avoid ill-informed commentary of the type that surrounded the sale process.

I ask the minister to assure me that FLS will engage fully with the local community on its plans for the estate and with neighbouring land holdings in relation to deer management.

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I am glad to assure Mr Dey that FLS will actively engage with all stakeholders, including, in particular, as I said, the local community and neighbouring landowners. I am pleased to hear that it has already been engaging with him as the constituency MSP. All of that will form part of the land management plan that FLS will develop over the coming year to ensure that the benefits of the acquisition can be afforded to everyone.

As well as the arrangements for employment of those who worked on the former sporting estate and an opportunity for landscape-scale restoration, the acquisition presents opportunities for community engagement, which was limited under the former use, and we can expect employment opportunities from woodland creation, among other pursuits.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I ask Liam Kerr to be brief.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The purchase of the

Glenprosen estate is one of the largest land deals involving settled land for years. However, despite the warm words that we have just heard about future consultation, the £18 million purchase happened entirely off market and behind closed doors with no meetings or consultations with any of the local community.

Given the recent public and media attention about so-called green lairds, does the minister consider that the purchase process was appropriate as regards how deals of public interest are conducted? Can we expect similar secrecy in future public land purchases?

Màiri McAllan (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

FLS operates in a competitive commercial land market, where its job is to work to optimise benefits for the people of Scotland. It was one of a small number of potentially interested parties that were approached by the agents to bid. Given the enormous strategic opportunity that the former sporting estate presented for Scottish Government objectives, FLS opted to offer.

I have already rehearsed some of the multiple benefits that will come from the purchase. Landscape-scale woodland creation is an opportunity, as are peatland restoration and community involvement.

As Liam Kerr has taken the opportunity to state on the record what the actual sale price was, I hope that he and his colleagues will consider some of the more spurious figures that they have used in the chamber before, which I was unable to correct owing to confidentiality. I will leave it to them to consider their responsibilities for correcting the record.

Network Support Grant Plus

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it has carried out an assessment of the potential impact of its decision to end the network support grant plus for bus operators. (S6O-01790)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

It is clear that the current cost of living crisis is making it challenging to deliver bus services in many local communities. That is why the temporary network support grant plus has been extended until 31 March 2023, to help people to afford to travel this winter.

I continue to collaborate with bus operators, through the bus task force, to address the immediate challenges, to help them move to a more sustainable footing and to ensure that the sector is supported by wider policies to improve bus services across Scotland.

Alexander Stewart (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

After the Scottish National Party-Green Government decided to cut the network support grant plus on 9 October, it did a quick U-turn and reintroduced the scheme in December 2022. However, the scheme has been brought back only until March, and the funding for bus operators has been reduced by 22 per cent. Will the minister confirm the reasons for ending the scheme again and why the funding that is offered has been significantly reduced?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am not sure whether Alexander Stewart is aware that the NSG plus grant was always a temporary fund. It was always meant to come to an end at the end of the pandemic. I have made two decisions to extend that funding further: one in June and one, as he alluded, in October. The funding that is coming to an end in March brings us into line with the end of the funding in England and Wales; there is now parity across the United Kingdom on that.

That emergency funding was announced during the pandemic to help our bus operators to survive and sustain themselves further as we continued to support that recovery from the pandemic.

It is important to put on record the additional funding that we provide to bus operators. We gave around £210 million during the pandemic, which has ensured that our bus operators are well positioned and at the forefront of the green recovery. We also need to tackle congestion and improve bus journey times. We have awarded £25 million of initial funding for that to 11 bus partnerships covering 28 local authorities across Scotland.

Looking ahead, we will consider any further support that we might be able to provide to the sector. However, these are very challenging times for the Government, as Alexander Stewart will recognise.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I ask Mark Ruskell to be brief.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Despite the huge investment in bus from the Scottish Government, from Covid recovery funding to the extension of concessionary travel, many of our constituents still face poor services. I understand that receipt of the network support grant plus is conditional on operators meeting particular terms and conditions, from freezing fares to protecting service levels. Will the minister provide further information

on whether any current recipients of the fund have been penalised for not meeting its conditions?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I ask the minister to be as brief as possible.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I do not have the detail of what Mark Ruskell has asked for, but I confirm that a freeze on fares is a condition of participation in the NSG plus extension. I will be happy to write to him with the detail that he seeks.

Ferry Contracts

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what economic analysis it considered prior to awarding ferry contracts reportedly worth £115 million to a shipyard in Turkey. (S6O-01791)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The long-term economic benefits of that investment will be derived from the improvements to the ferry services for Tarbert on Harris and Lochmaddy on North Uist. Increases in vehicle capacity, of more than 40 per cent in summer and more than 10 per cent in winter, will support sustainable growth on our islands. The vessels will also provide significant benefits in reliability and resilience across the wider west coast routes.

In line with the relevant procurement legislation, the contract was awarded following an open tendering process by Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd as the procuring authority. The bid that was received from the yard represented best value for money in quality and price.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

The glaring omission in that answer was about the impact on the Scottish shipbuilding industry.

When I asked a written question about what weighting is applied to foreign shipbuilders as against domestic shipbuilders, the Scottish Government told me that it scores foreign and domestic shipbuilders in the same way on social value and other criteria. Therefore, an apprenticeship that is created in Turkey weighs the same as an apprenticeship that is created in Greenock. That is absurd, given that analysis shows that every pound that is spent on domestic shipbuilding returns a 35 per cent benefit to the local economy and supply chains in Scotland.

Does the minister not realise how foolish that approach is and that continuing with it will result in the terminal decline of shipbuilding in Scotland, given that most foreign shipbuilders are heavily subsidised by their Governments and are therefore able to submit bids that domestic shipbuilders are simply unable to compete with?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Paul Sweeney touched on a number of points in his question, and I recognise that he has also asked several written parliamentary questions, which, I believe, I have responded to.

When it comes to the vessels themselves, the relevant procurement legislation has been adhered to. To my mind, the most important challenge at the current time is in bringing that additional capacity to the Western Isles, in particular, and to CalMac Ferries. We have to provide additional capacity.

I am proud that, in the past year alone, we have been able to confirm that there will be two new additional vessels for Islay. We have the additional vessel on the Oban to Craignure route—MV Loch Frisa. At the end of last year, I confirmed the additional vessels to which the member has alluded. The bid that was received from that yard represented the best value for money in quality and price.

The two vessels that are in construction at the yard, which I announced earlier last year, are progressing well and remain on time and within budget. CMAL’s recent confirmation of signing the contract for the additional two vessels, at the same design specification and with the same yard, follows the recent procurement exercise to which the member has alluded—but that also includes a full builder’s refund guarantee.

The most important point in all of this is that we deliver that extra capacity to CalMac to allow it to provide a more sustainable service to the Western Isles, in particular.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

There are two supplementary questions, but they will need to be brief, as will the answers.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I remind Labour members that it was the SNP that took action to save Ferguson’s shipyard from closure.

As the minister has just highlighted, the new ferries will increase capacity and resilience for islanders. The investment is therefore welcome news for islanders and businesses. Does the minister share my view that, instead of seeking to score political points, we should all focus on the real differences that the vessels will make to the lives of the people who rely on them?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I absolutely do. Ms Minto is right to highlight our intention in respect of the vessels and the benefits that they will bring to our island communities and the businesses that they will serve. The challenges have been well rehearsed in the chamber in recent months, so we should all welcome this investment from the Scottish Government.

Consider the progress made in the past 12 months: we now have four additional major vessels on order or under construction, in addition to the two major vessels under construction at Port Glasgow. The Scottish Government remains absolutely committed to improving our lifeline ferry fleet and better meeting the needs of our island communities.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

If there is one thing

of which the minister should not be proud—as she put it—it is the construction of ferries for the Western Isles. She should be ashamed of what has happened rather than proud of it.

Were there any clauses in the contract with Cemre Shipyard stipulating that Scottish businesses should form part of the supply chain?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I answered the question in relation to

procurement, which is the wider point of Mr Rennie’s question, in my response to Mr Sweeney’s question.

In relation to Ferguson’s more generally, we know that the yard is actively pursuing opportunities for future vessel contracts. As a shareholder and as a Government, we will do all that we can to help the yard to secure those opportunities, but decisions on what vessel contracts to bid for are a matter for the yard management and the board itself.

Strategic Transport Projects Review 2 (Rail in South Scotland)

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

5. To ask the Scottish Government how the strategic transport projects review 2 will improve rail infrastructure, journey times and rail connectivity across the South Scotland region. (S6O-01792)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

A

number of the STPR2 recommendations make a direct contribution to improving rail in South Scotland. They focus on infrastructure to provide access for all at railway stations, decarbonising the network, high-speed cross-border rail enhancements, consideration of the upgrade or relocation of Stranraer rail station, and rail freight terminals and facilities. All of those will contribute to meeting the aims of protecting the climate and improving lives through better transport connectivity.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

STPR2 makes a commitment to improve journey times, specifically on the Glasgow-Carlisle line. Can the minister comment further on how that commitment will be taken forward and on timescales for the changes being made? Improving that service from the current two-hour journey from Dumfries to Glasgow will allow more people to rely on public transport across the region and will attract people to Dumfries and Galloway, because the stations in the region could be key commuter lines to Glasgow.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I

very much agree with the sentiment in Emma Harper’s question. The long-term plans for our rail network in Scotland, including in South Scotland, are set out in STPR2, which was published in December last year.

The recommendations for future rail investment focus on decarbonisation of the remainder of the network and on reducing emissions from road transport by getting more freight and passengers on to rail. STPR2 will help to deliver the vision, priorities and outcomes that are set out in the national transport strategy. It will also provide improved rail infrastructure, rail journey times—which the member alluded to—and rail connectivity across South Scotland.

The delivery plan, which will give the further detail that Ms Harper has sought today, will be published later this year. I believe that the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero, Energy and Transport will be making a statement to Parliament next week on that very matter.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

A

fter years of waiting and hundreds of thousands of pounds of public funds being spent, the long-awaited STPR2 report leaves us none the wiser about what investment the Scottish Government will commit to transport infrastructure in South Scotland. For the sake of all those who live in the south-west, when can we expect any details on actual projects for an area of Scotland that is already ignored by the Scottish Government, and when can we expect the transport infrastructure to be brought up to an acceptable standard?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As I

mentioned in my response to Ms Harper, the delivery plan will be set out in the coming months, and the cabinet secretary will make a statement to Parliament next week.

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

During budget consideration, the Deputy First Minister said that a

“six-month pilot ... will remove peak-time rail fares”.—[

Official Report

, 15 December 2022; c 69.]

It turns out that that will affect only some peak rail fares. Can the minister tell us from which rail routes in South Scotland peak fares will be removed, because it is clear that it will not be all of them?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

My understanding is that that will apply to all routes. Details will be forthcoming. I await further advice from my officials in Transport Scotland on how the scheme will operate.

Public Transport Use (East Kilbride)

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to help increase public transport use in East Kilbride. (S6O-01793)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The Scottish Government is investing more than £100 million in the East Kilbride rail project, which is enabling more diesel trains to be replaced across Scotland and encouraging greater modal shift. The electrification of the line from Glasgow to Barrhead is under way, alongside the relocation of Hairmyres station, whereby the plan is to create a new fully accessible transport interchange, which will give the local community the option to walk, wheel or travel by bus to the station.

In addition, we are supporting bus use through the under-22s free bus travel scheme, which means that around half of Scotland’s population can now travel by bus for free.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Can the minister provide an update on the East Kilbride rail enhancements and set out the benefits that the Clyde metro will bring to the town? Will she outline the local engagement that is taking place on those matters?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

For East Kilbride, Network Rail advance works have been undertaken at a number of locations, including the successful removal last weekend of a redundant footbridge at the site of the proposed new Hairmyres station.

We continue to make good progress with the East Kilbride business case, including a well-received event for members that was held in the Parliament late last year. As the project develops and the full programme of works is finalised, Network Rail will intensify its activities and will continue to work closely with communities, MSPs and other stakeholders along the line of the route in order to keep them informed.

Work on the Clyde metro has been undertaken through the 2022 scoping programme-level business case. That is being undertaken collaboratively, led by Transport Scotland and its partner, which are Glasgow City Council and Strathclyde Partnership for Transport. A delivery plan will be prepared following completion of the programme-level business case, and engagement will be key to that business case as it progresses.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We have a couple of brief supplementaries.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The people of East Kilbride, along with me and, I am sure, Collette Stevenson, want to know when work is actually going to start on the East Kilbride line and when it will be complete.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

In my response to Ms Stevenson, I alluded to the on-going engagement with Network Rail. It is important that Mr Simpson too, as a local MSP, continues with that engagement. I think that he met Network Rail very recently about the project.

With regard to the timescales for the decarbonisation work, I am happy to write to the member with an update on those if they have changed in any way, shape or form in the past few months, although to my knowledge they have not.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

At a previous portfolio question time, the minister gave a commitment to ask Transport Scotland officials to compile data on the number of bus service cancellations and the reasons for those cancellations. Can the minister update us on that matter, and tell us whether and when the Government expects to know the full extent of bus service cancellations in Scotland?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I did commit to ask my officials in Transport Scotland to provide that data. I have not yet received it, but I will be happy to publish it as and when I receive it in order to give a national picture of cancellations, because I very much recognise the on-going challenges that we face in that respect, to which Neil Bibby alluded.

Fuel Poverty (North Ayrshire)

Ruth Maguire (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to address fuel poverty in North Ayrshire. (S6O-01794)

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

We are tackling fuel poverty throughout Scotland, with £119 million allocated this year to provide heat energy efficiency and fuel-poverty measures to fuel-poor households. That includes funding for our area-based scheme, which is delivered in partnership with local authorities. Since 2013, North Ayrshire Council has received more than £13.2 million in ABS funding, which has enabled energy-efficiency upgrades to be made to more than 2,700 homes.

This year, the council has been awarded £1.8 million to target homes in five fuel-poor areas for installation of external wall insulation and to help to support 100 fuel-poor homes to receive solar photovoltaic systems

Ruth Maguire (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

I have constituents in housing association properties that require work to make them more energy efficient. The landlord tells me that it has no funds for capital improvements. My constituents’ wages are stagnant and all their bills are going up year on year, including rent, which has seen a rise of 7 per cent this year.

What guidance can the cabinet secretary give on what funding is available to housing associations, whether it is in grants or loans, for such work? Further, what advice can the Scottish Government give to support my constituents in housing association homes?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

The schemes that apply to housing associations are the area-based schemes to which I just referred. Housing associations that are seeking to undertake energy efficiency programmes should be looking to engage with the warmer homes Scotland scheme on the range of funding that is available to them to support installation of energy efficiency measures in properties.