Scottish Parliament, 24 November 2022

278 contributions from 67 members. The official report.

General Question Time

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

The first item of business is general question time. Question 1 has been withdrawn.

Disabled People (Right to Dedicated Accessible Spaces)

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the right of disabled people to dedicated accessible spaces. (S6O-01598)

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

Our Strategy “A Fairer Scotland for Disabled People” sets out a commitment to have places that are accessible to everyone. We are working with disabled people’s organisations to develop our new strategy and are listening to learn what barriers disabled people face and to find solutions. We have made significant progress in advancing disability equality in many areas, including by delivering 1,124 homes for disabled people.

Under the Equality Act 2010, public authorities, businesses and organisations are responsible for making reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of disabled people; we expect all relevant organisations to comply with the requirements of the act.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

Active travel measures and new pedestrianised areas can sometimes make the built environment less accessible for disabled people by leading to the removal of blue badge parking bays, unclear demarcation of cycle lanes and pavements and more clutter and street furniture in pedestrianised areas.

Does the minister agree that any alterations to our urban areas must not come at the expense of the disabled community and that true progress can be made only if we leave no one behind?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I agree with Jeremy Balfour. Our accessible travel framework is there to help ensure that more disabled people make successful door-to-door journeys more often. We want to see disabled people being more involved in the design, development and improvement of transport policies, services and infrastructure. I know that there is good practice in many places and that disabled people are being involved in the design of new places, ensuring, as Mr Balfour highlighted, that we have the right number of disabled parking spaces and that areas are truly accessible.

The Government will continue to listen to the voices of those with lived experience and of disabled people in order to get this right.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

A lot of work remains to be done. I recently joined disability campaigner Robert West for a tour of St Andrews. We went through thoroughfare after thoroughfare and over many crossings without finding dropped kerbs in many locations. Even next to disability parking bays, there were no dropped kerbs.

It is a quarter of a century since the introduction of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. I have heard what the minister has said so far, but what practical steps can be taken so that we can see progress in the next few years?

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

My plaudits go to Mr Rennie for going out with his constituent to see exactly where the difficulties lie. I have done similar things myself, with a blind constituent in particular, to see the difficulties that disabled people face.

Local authorities should ensure that they are taking due cognisance of the needs of disabled people in their areas. I hope that Fife Council will listen to people such as Mr Rennie’s constituent so that we can get this right.

Mr Rennie makes a good point about poor access to disability parking spaces. It is my expectation that, when those are being designed and planned, local authorities and regional transport partnerships will look at the whole area and not only at the spaces themselves.

NHS Lothian and NHS Borders (Meetings)

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

3. To ask the Scottish Government when it last met NHS Lothian and NHS Borders. (S6O-01599)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Ministers and Scottish Government officials regularly meet representatives of all health boards, including NHS Borders and NHS Lothian. Indeed, I met the leadership of NHS Lothian on Monday.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

The cabinet secretary will be aware of the trial involving NHS Grampian, a local energy charity and an energy innovation hub. The health board has identified at least 300 people who require assistance with their energy bills because of their serious ill health and related requirements.

I have a constituent who is at home on life-support equipment, and their monthly bill will rise from £347 to £624 on 1 December and to over £1,000 next year. Does the cabinet secretary consider that other health boards should follow NHS Grampian and consider such interventions?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I know about the important pilot project at NHS Grampian that Christine Grahame highlights and I will make sure that it has been put on the radar of every single health board chair and chief executive.

Having spoken to our chairs and chief executives about the issue, which has been raised by parliamentarians right across the chamber, we know how important any additional support can be during this very difficult cost crisis.

NHS Lothian and NHS Borders advise me that they have arrangements in place to help with energy cost support for some patients, but I will make sure that the pilot that Christine Grahame referenced is put on their radar.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

I am glad that the cabinet secretary met NHS Lothian on Monday. He will have heard about the staffing challenges that are still keeping the Edington hospital closed. What specific help has the Scottish Government offered NHS Lothian with regard to its challenges with recruitment?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Significant support has been given to all our health boards, including NHS Lothian. With NHS Lothian, a lot of our support has concentrated on the social care space. We know that delayed discharges are far too high, particularly in the city of Edinburgh, so we are working extensively on that. We have asked Elma Murray, who I am sure the member will know, to provide some additional support—which is in addition to national Government support—to the health board, the health and social care partnership and the City of Edinburgh Council.

We are working really intensively. It looks like there has been some initial positive movement in delayed discharges in Edinburgh city. We know that, if we can free up that capacity, it helps to free up some of the workload, and we hope that, in time, it will help to free up staff to be able to go back into other community assets such as the Edington hospital, which the member mentioned.

Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Meetings)

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government when it last met COSLA and what issues were discussed. (S6O-01600)

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

The Scottish Government engages regularly with COSLA at both official and ministerial levels to discuss a wide range of issues as part of our shared commitment to working in partnership with local government to improve outcomes for the people and communities of Scotland.

Other ministers have met COSLA in recent days and weeks. I last met COSLA on 11 October to discuss the child disability and adult disability payments as well as data sharing between Social Security Scotland and local government. I am also scheduled to meet the presidential team in the coming weeks to discuss a wide range of issues, including the new deal for local government.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

I thank the minister for his answer. The failure to properly resource local councils has created protracted pay disputes all over the country, meaning that refuse is piling up on our streets and, today, schoolchildren are locked out of their classrooms. Our town halls are now facing even more tough decisions against a backdrop of rising costs, which means cuts to public services in our communities.

Does the minister recognise that the Government’s failure to provide any funding for pay settlements in the 2021-22 local government settlement was the principal reason for the disputes this year? Will the Government commit to properly funding councils in West Scotland in 2022-23 so that they can make a fair pay offer to their hard-working employees, who are struggling with the cost of living crisis, and ensure that people have the services that they deserve?

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

As I mentioned in my first answer, the Scottish Government works in partnership with local government as two spheres of government that are equally committed to collaboration and serving the people of Scotland.

The outcome of the resource spending review earlier this year meant that, despite the very challenging circumstances, we have provided the local government revenue budget with an extra £100 million in cash terms. The £120 million that was added at stage 2 of the 2022-23 Scottish budget bill has also been baselined in the local government settlement for future years.

Within the limited resources of the Scottish Government’s budget and the nature of the powers and flexibilities that it has, the Scottish Government has consistently been committed to providing local government with as fair a settlement as is practical and reasonable, as well as meeting all the other obligations that we have.

I encourage Neil Bibby to engage with finance ministers in a spirit of collaboration, because the issues that are faced across the country require that.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

Here in the capital, the number of people who have died while homeless has increased by nearly 150 per cent over the past four years. Shelter Scotland has said that the situation p

oints towards “public services failing people”, and a “broken housing system”. The situation is simply not acceptable, and the City of Edinburgh Council does not have the resources to deliver a solution. As a fellow Edinburgh MSP, I ask the minister a very simple question: will he act today to declare a homelessness emergency here in the capital?

Ben Macpherson (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

I appreciate the wide-ranging nature of this question.

As a Lothian MSP, Miles Briggs is active in this space. As a constituency MSP, I am aware of the pressures on the housing market and on housing capacity here in the capital city, as is my colleague Shona Robison, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government.

Within the Scottish Government, there is a strong commitment to building more affordable housing. More than 112,000 affordable homes have been built across the country since 2007. Action has been taken on short-term lets, to increase the capacity in the city. Of course, the Conservatives did not support that. Recently, we took action on rents. There has been a multitude of actions, including in trying to improve provision for homeless people in Scotland and committing to reducing homelessness. We will continue with that work.

If Miles Briggs has any constructive suggestions, he should send them to the cabinet secretary.

National Health Service Dentistry (Dumfries and Galloway)

Oliver Mundell (Conservative, Dumfriesshire)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what urgent action it is taking to stabilise NHS dentistry services in Dumfries and Galloway. (S6O-01601)

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

We understand that, in certain remote and rural areas, such as Dumfries and Galloway, access to NHS dentistry remains challenging. The service concerns that are experienced by NHS Dumfries and Galloway are driven by workforce and capacity issues, given enhanced immigration controls on European Union labour following Brexit and the exacerbation of historical difficulties by backlogs from the pandemic.

We have already put in place additional recruitment and retention incentives to maximise the opportunities for newly qualified dentists to work in areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, and we continue to work with all health boards to deliver their responsibility for NHS dental services in their area.

A record number of people—more than 95 per cent of the population—are currently registered with an NHS dentist.

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, minister.

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

Across key treatments, levels of activity in NHS dental services are comparable to those that were last seen before the pandemic restrictions were introduced.

Oliver Mundell (Conservative, Dumfriesshire)

The minister says access is “challenging”, but access is non-existent: Thornhill has closed, Gretna has closed and Castle Douglas has closed. NHS dentistry in the region is collapsing. The minister was warned that that was the case on 23 February, during a Conservative-led debate in the Parliament. No meaningful additional action has taken place since then.

Does the minister not feel even a tad of shame that, in 2022, in Scottish National Party Scotland, the ability to see a dentist is based on the ability to pay? What will it take for this rotten Government to end the decay?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I will be absolutely clear. Not one dental practice that was providing NHS dental services prior to the pandemic has closed due to financial failure. That is because of the level of support that was provided throughout the pandemic and during this post-pandemic recovery period, which totals more than £150 million. We put that in in order to maintain the capacity and capability of NHS dentistry.

Officials meet the board regularly, and are in advanced discussions on how to maintain NHS capacity. For example, they are exploring with the board the prospect of a comprehensive suite of Scottish dental access initiative grants across the areas in which NHS dental provision has recently been lost. Those grants offer £100,000 towards establishing a new surgery, with £25,000 per additional surgery.

However, I must say—

The Presiding Officer

Briefly, minister.

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

Historically, this is an area that has proven to be challenging for the board in attracting suitably qualified dental professionals. Existential forces, such as the significant loss of EU workers as a consequence of Brexit, are, invariably, having a disproportionate impact in areas such as Dumfries and Galloway.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

Like Oliver Mundell, I have been contacted by many people from across Dumfries and Galloway, and from other parts of South Scotland, so I know that the situation is challenging and that the impact has been exacerbated by Brexit. Can the minister provide an update on the rural visa pilot scheme in relation to dentists, and will she agree to meet me to discuss access to NHS dentistry in Dumfries and Galloway?

Maree Todd (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I thank the member for that question and would be happy to meet her to discuss the issue.

We have been particularly successful in growing the dental workforce in Scotland—from 2007 to 2022, it has increased by 32 per cent, despite the challenging pandemic period. However, with disruptions to the education and training of dentists and the challenges of Brexit, we face difficulties.

The situation is accentuated with regulated professions such as dentistry. For example, overseas dentists are required to sit examinations with the General Dental Council before they are able to work as dentist. We are pressing the GDC and the UK Government to expand the capacity for examinations.

National Health Service Recovery Plan (Diagnostics for Thrombosis)

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

6. To ask the Scottish Government how measures set out in the NHS recovery plan will support innovation and capacity in diagnostics for thrombosis. (S6O-01602)

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Our NHS recovery plan is clear that innovation, the redesign of services and continually identifying new ways to increase our capacity are all integral to the recovery of NHS services. That includes increasing diagnostic capacity, including diagnostics for thrombosis and similar artery and vein clotting conditions.

Our specialist diagnostic services are split between imaging services, such as magnetic resonance imaging and computed tomography scans. To support delivery towards increasing capacity by 78,000 this year, we have secured seven mobile MRI scanners and five mobile CT scanners across Scotland, which is helping to reduce waits.

Natalie Don (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

Symptoms of deep vein thrombosis include swelling, a throbbing pain—normally in one leg—and red or darkened skin around the painful area. I know from the experience of one of my constituents that it can be extremely debilitating. Will the cabinet secretary join me in emphasising the importance of raising awareness of the symptoms of deep vein thrombosis?

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

Yes, I would be happy to do that, and I think there may be more that we can do on the communication of the symptoms and what people should be aware of when it comes to DVT and other artery and clotting conditions.

The member will know that a lot of our public health messaging during the pandemic was, understandably, focused on Covid, but that focus has reduced as we have moved to a different phase of the pandemic. It is therefore important that we should look at what more we can do, particularly on DVT.

Housing (Private Sector Rents)

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to address high private sector rents. (S6O-01603)

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

The Cost of Living (Tenant Protection) (Scotland) Act 2022, which came into force on 28 October, included a rent cap to protect tenants from high rent increases.

Alongside that, we are committed to introducing an effective national system of private sector rent controls by the end of 2025, and to doing so in a robust way that provides lasting benefit to tenants. We are also providing up to £86 million-worth of housing support this year, building on the £39 million-worth of additional funding that has already been provided to protect tenants as a result of the pandemic.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

I thank the minister for his support for Labour’s rent-freeze policy. It is vital that that stays in place until we have a national system of rent control to bring rents down, because long-term underinvestment in council housing and the history of poor regulation of the private rental sector has allowed private landlords to cash in on the housing crisis while claiming that they provide a public service. Let us be clear: that is not philanthropy—it is exploitation. Will the minister commit to finally ending the two-tier system of rented housing in Scotland by capping private rents in line with social rent levels?

Patrick Harvie (Green, Glasgow)

I am glad that the Labour Party supports the measures that the Scottish Government brought to Parliament, which have not been replicated by any Government in any other part of the UK.

The member is well aware that emergency legislation must, by definition, be temporary and that its on-going necessity must be reviewed to ensure that the provisions remain proportionate to the situation. For that reason, the measures will initially apply for a six-month period. However, the act also includes powers to extend the measures for two further six-month periods, subject to parliamentary approval, if circumstances show that to be necessary. The act also includes provisions to temporarily change the rent adjudication process if that is necessary to support the transition away from the emergency measures.

Those measures, alongside the direct support that I mentioned in my first answer and the Scottish Government’s strong track record on providing social housing, demonstrate that the Scottish Government has the best track record of any Government in any part of the UK in supporting tenants in these difficult times.

NHS Leaders (Meeting)

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. On Monday, minutes obtained by the BBC revealed that national health service leaders in Scotland had held secret talks about privatising parts of the NHS. They discussed a two-tier health service in which patients would have to pay for treatment and prescriptions. Those plans are completely against the founding principles of our NHS. The First Minister likes to scaremonger about NHS privatisation, but it seems like it is already on the table in the Scottish National Party-run health service here in Scotland. Now, the First Minister denies it, but is she denying that those conversations took place? Is she denying that NHS chiefs discussed a two-tiered system in Scotland’s NHS? Apparently, she finds that funny. Is she saying—[

Interruption

.]

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

Let us be clear from the outset that we are going to conduct ourselves in a courteous and respectful manner. We will hear one another when we are speaking. One at a time.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I ask the First Minister, on this important issue, whether she is denying that those conversations took place. Is she denying that NHS chiefs discussed a two-tier system in Scotland’s NHS, or is she saying that the minutes of the meeting are wrong?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

First, it is—what is the best word to describe it?—bold for a Conservative to come here and talk about privatisation of the national health service. The Conservatives have done more than any other party in these islands—at times, they have had stiff competition from Labour—to privatise the NHS.

I am intrigued by Douglas Ross’s line of questioning. I did an interview on Monday in which I addressed the comments in the minute. The minute is there. I was not denying then that the conversation had taken place, and I am not denying it now. It was a meeting of some leading NHS directors. As a point of fact, it was not a meeting of NHS board chief executives. The meeting involved conversations, not—to use another word that Douglas Ross used—“plans”.

I will let Douglas Ross into what should not be a secret, but it is clear that he does not understand this. NHS leaders, however much respect I have for them—I have considerable respect for them—do not make Government policy. The Government makes Government policy, and the founding principles of the national health service, which this Government has done more than any to protect and to enhance are not and—as long as I am First Minister—never will be up for discussion.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I think that it is very bold for Nicola Sturgeon to compare Scotland with other parts of the United Kingdom on privatisation when we know that, in Scotland, private treatment has gone up by 84 per cent since the start of the pandemic, whereas in the rest of the UK, the figure is half of that. Private treatment has increased by 84 per cent here in Scotland and by less than half of that in the rest of the UK.

As the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care passes the First Minister some notes, which she passes back again—those were clearly no use, Humza—let us look at what the document said.

The Presiding Officer

Mr Ross.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

It said that health boards had the “green light” from the leadership to come up with and present their ideas for reforms. It is reported that the document said:

“areas which were previously not viable options are now possibilities”.

Will the First Minister reveal what areas that she would not consider before are now on the table? Given that she has said that the ultimate decision would lie with Government ministers, who gave NHS chiefs the green light to consider these plans?

The First Minister

Can you imagine what Douglas Ross’s reaction would be if I tried to dictate to NHS leaders what they were or were not allowed to discuss in their meetings? Let us just imagine that for a second.

In direct answer to Mr Ross’s question, none of these plans—actually, they are not plans; they are ideas—that would have any impact on the founding principles of the national health service is being discussed or remotely considered by this Government. That cannot be clearer. Certainly here in Scotland, it is Government that makes Government policy.

Douglas Ross talked about figures around private health funding. Let me give him some facts on that matter. For example, for people who self-fund private care, the figure in Wales is 30 per cent higher per head than it is in Scotland—[

Interruption

.] I am sorry, but Douglas Ross introduced the comparison between Scotland and the rest of the UK. In England

, where, just in case anyone has forgotten—though I am sure that they have not—the Conservatives are in government, that figure is 15 per cent higher per head than it is in Scotland.

Let us look at NHS use of the private sector. In Scotland, total spend on use of the independent sector represents 0.5 per cent of the total front-line health budget. In England, where the Conservatives are in power, that figure is almost 7 per cent, or £12.2 billion.

This Government will take no lessons from the Conservatives when it comes to privatising the national health service. In fact, this Government will take no lessons from the Conservatives on the NHS—full stop.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Sadly, in Sturgeon’s Scotland, no one is getting any lessons today, because the teachers are on strike.

Let us go back to the figures. The First Minister did not dispute that, since the start of the pandemic, private treatments in Scotland have increased by 84 per cent, while in the rest of the United Kingdom, the increase has been 39 per cent.

I go back to the point that I was making: someone gave the green light within the Government. We would usually expect that green light to come from the health secretary or the First Minister, but there has clearly been a complete breakdown of communication between NHS chiefs and the SNP. The First Minister has stood up today and literally rubbished the meeting of NHS chiefs, saying that they are completely wrong. They are apparently acting on their own, without ministerial direction—that is what the First Minister has said—but the reports clearly state that NHS chiefs here in Scotland are worried about the prospect of a two-tier NHS.

If the First Minister is to be believed, NHS chiefs are not listening to the health secretary but are going off to try to fix the NHS on their own, with no Government oversight. Is this not just another confirmation that Humza Yousaf is out of control with Scotland’s NHS?

The Presiding Officer

Before the First Minister responds, I remind members of the requirement to always address one another respectfully.

The First Minister

Respectfully, Presiding Officer, even by Douglas Ross’s own standards, this is a pretty lame and pathetic line of questioning. He talks about a two-tier health service, but perhaps he is talking about the one that already exists where the Conservatives are in government in England. There will not be a two-tier health service while this Government is in office in Scotland, because we are committed to the founding principles of the national health service and always will be.

NHS leaders are entitled to discuss what they want, but they do not make Government policy. The Government makes Government policy—I could not be clearer about that.

I was health secretary in the early years of this Government, so I know that this is the Government that reversed the privatisation of our health service where it had taken place. I was the health secretary who brought Stracathro hospital back into the public sector after Labour had privatised it, and we were the Government that ended the contracting out of cleaning and catering services and which moved away from the ruinously expensive Tory-Labour public-private partnership/private finance initiative contracts. Of course, we were also the Government that ended prescription charges in Scotland. We did that, because we support the founding principles of the NHS, and we always will.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Last week, Nicola Sturgeon stood up and said that we should trust her, not a shipbuilding expert who had advised the United Nations. This week, we have to believe Nicola Sturgeon, not NHS chiefs who run our service here in Scotland.

According to the First Minister, Humza Yousaf has not lost control, yet nurses are on strike for the first time ever, we have waiting times at record highs, people cannot see their general practitioners, and health chiefs are warning of a two-tier system in our NHS. It is quite clear that the First Minister is in complete denial about how badly her health secretary is handling the NHS crisis, about the scale of privatisation in the health service that she oversees and about Humza Yousaf’s two-tier system, which is already becoming the norm in Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon has become so distracted, focusing on her own political priorities, that she no longer realises just how bad the situation has got here in Scotland.

The minutes of the meeting of NHS chiefs claim that there is a “disconnect” between what is happening on the front line and what the health secretary thinks is happening. They accuse Humza Yousaf of being “divorced from reality”. They are right, are they not?

The First Minister

They are not. I will set out some facts about the NHS. There is higher funding for the national health service in Scotland than there is for England’s Tory-run national health service; there is higher staffing per head of population in Scotland than there is in England; and, of course, thanks to the dedication of every worker who works in it, NHS Scotland is better performing than the NHS in other parts of the UK.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Divorced from reality.

The First Minister

This Government will always work to protect the founding principles of the health service, which is more than can be said—[

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

When the First Minister is responding to a question, I want us to ensure that we can hear only the First Minister’s voice.

The First Minister

As I was saying, that is more than can be said for Douglas Ross. He says that he wants some reality. I will give him some.

Last year, an amendment was passed in the House of Lords that would have protected the NHS by explicitly excluding it from trade deals that could undermine its founding principles. Tory MPs in the House of Commons voted to remove that protection. Guess who one of those Tory MPs was—Douglas Ross. Even when he gets the chance, he does not stand up for the principles of the national health service. This Government always will.

Healthcare (Private Provision)

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

2. On Monday, the BBC revealed that the national health service crisis created by this Government had got so bad that health leaders had discussed charging for treatment. In response, the health secretary said that that was “abhorrent”. However, the truth is that there is already a two-tier healthcare system in Scotland. Can the First Minister tell the chamber how many procedures were carried out in private hospitals in Scotland in the past year?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I will provide that precise figure, but, as I have just said to Douglas Ross, the number of people who self-fund for private care in Scotland is significantly lower than it is in England—a

ctually, it is even more significantly lower in Scotland than it is in Wales, where Labour is in power. That is the reality, because we protect our national health service in these difficult times, and we always will.

Anas Sarwar talks about paying for treatment. I repeat: this is the Government that abolished prescription charges—something that Labour had many opportunities over many years to do but failed completely to do. Just as I will take no lessons about the founding principles of the national health service from the Conservatives, I will take none from Labour.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

Perhaps the First Minister will take lessons from the people who are having to actually pay for treatment in Scotland. In the past year, more than 39,000 patients were treated privately in Scotland. That does not include the many private treatments that were carried out in individual clinics such as dental surgeries. The number of people now paying for treatment without health insurance has increased by 72 per cent. Often, those are people who are forced to borrow money, turn to family and friends or even remortgage their homes to get healthcare that should be free at the point of need.

I know that the First Minister does not like facts, but let us look at the facts. Almost 2,000 people have gone private for endoscopies and colonoscopies. Those treatments cost an average of £1,195 privately. More than 7,800 people have gone private for cataract surgery, the average cost of which is £2,660. A staggering 3,500 people have had a hip or knee replacement in a private hospital. The average cost of that is £12,500.

Those figures make it clear that, under the Scottish National Party, healthcare in Scotland is already a two-tier system. Does the First Minister accept that that goes against the founding principles of our national health service as a universal healthcare system free at the point of need?

The First Minister

No, I do not accept that, and I do not accept that we have a two-tier health system in Scotland. We will always act to protect the founding principles of the NHS, and we have done more than any other Government to achieve that.

The one thing that was completely missing from Anas Sarwar’s question, of course, was reference to a global pandemic that caused the cancellation and pausing of elective services in our national health service for a considerable period of time. That is why we have seen an increase in those figures in recent years. However, those figures remain significantly below the comparable figures in England and Wales. Let me remind Anas Sarwar that his own party is in government and running the national health service in Wales.

As we continue to progress the NHS recovery plan and get more operations done within waiting times in the national health service, we will continue to see the benefits of NHS care free at the point of need for everyone across Scotland.

Anas Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow)

The First Minister’s response is to deny the facts. It is not a good enough excuse to say that, because there was a pandemic, that made it okay for people to have to go private and pay for treatment.

The First Minister denies that we have a two-tier system. In 2021, 40 per cent of all hip and knee replacements in Scotland were paid for privately. Some 3,430 people paid to get a hip or knee replacement privately. Our NHS is at risk because of the Government’s choices and the Government’s crisis. After 15 years in government, there is no one else to blame. Take responsibility for your record. Hospital beds have been cut, and nursing and midwifery training places have been cut. There are record long waits in accident and emergency. Some 750,000 Scots are on an NHS waiting list, and people are being forced to go into debt to go private. That undermines the very principles of our national health service, which is the Labour Party’s and our country’s greatest-ever public service achievement. Does it not get clearer every single day that our NHS is not safe in SNP hands?

The First Minister

We have record numbers of people working in our national health service. There are significantly more than there were when this Government took office and there are significantly more proportionately than there are in any other part of the United Kingdom, including in Wales, where Labour is in government.

On how we are responding, Anas Sarwar says that the pandemic should not be used as an excuse. I agree with that, but its impact on our national health service cannot be ignored. In all the figures that he quotes, he takes no account of the impact of a global pandemic on our national health service.

What are we doing? We are building up the capacity of our NHS. In response to Douglas Ross’s questions, I referred to one of the things that I did when I was health secretary. I brought back into public ownership Stracathro hospital, which had been privatised by the last Labour Administration. [

Interruption

.] Jackie Baillie was, of course, a member of that Administration. Earlier this year, we brought another private sector hospital—Carrick Glen hospital in Ayrshire—into public ownership. That facility will be developed to become one of our new national treatment centres.

We are building up the elective capacity of our NHS to treat more people. That is the practical action that the Government is taking. We will take that action and we always will take that action while we protect the founding principles of our national health service.

The Presiding Officer

I intend to take general and constituency supplementary questions after question 7. I ask members who have already pressed their request-to-speak buttons to not re-press them, please. However, members who want to ask a supplementary to questions 3 to 7 should press their buttons at the appropriate point, please.

Emergency Response to Flooding (North-east Scotland)

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

3. To ask the First Minister what assessment the Scottish Government has made of the emergency response to flooding in the north-east of Scotland in recent days. (S6F-01565)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

First, my thoughts are with the family and friends of Hazel Nairn, who remains missing after the recent flooding, and I know that there has been some distressing news on that this morning.

The Scottish Government’s resilience room was activated throughout the flooding incident to support the local response. Transport Scotland also activated its multi-agency response team and the Transport Scotland resilience room. We will now work with partners to reflect on the response and to ensure that we take on board any lessons learned and build them into contingency planning and response arrangements for the future.

As the clean-up continues, I take this opportunity to thank our emergency services and all local resilience partners, including the voluntary sector, for their on-going work to ensure that the communities that have been most affected are kept safe and get the support that they urgently need.

Tess White (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I associate myself with those remarks from the First Minister. I pay tribute to Hazel Nairn, who tragically went missing during Friday’s adverse weather. As the search continues, my thoughts are with her family and the responders on the ground.

In Brechin, two of the pumps belonging to the town’s £16 million flood defences failed, flooding homes and causing extensive damage. Villagers raised concerns with me about the safety of an electrical substation in Inchbair, which was half-submerged in water for days. Communities rallied together over the weekend, but improvements need to be made to the organisation of the emergency response to such weather events.

How will the Scottish Government work with local resilience partnerships to expedite that process and reassure people in my region that every possible step has been taken to protect them?

The First Minister

I thank Tess White for raising those issues, which are extremely important to any community that is affected by severe weather incidents. Specifically on the important issue of Brechin, t

he main flood defence in Brechin, which contains the South Esk river, held. That is despite river levels provisionally reported by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency as being the highest ever on record. It is worth pointing out that, had those defences not been in place, there would have been widespread and potentially dangerous flooding of an estimated 332 properties—beyond anything yet experienced by Brechin.

However, two of the three pump stations that remove surface water from River Street, from run-off and other sources, did not start automatically when water was detected. As soon as that issue was identified, a council officer attended and, at that stage, the pumps were successfully started.

We work closely with local resilience partnerships and it is important that we do so. Any time there is a severe weather incident such as this one, we ensure that any appropriate lessons are learned; that will be the case here and it will be done as quickly as possible. If the member could pass on to the Government any issues raised by locals about concerns that I have not touched on today, we will ensure that those issues are fed into that process of reflection and learning.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

We are already seeing the effects of the climate emergency, with further extreme weather events becoming more likely. The National Infrastructure Commission has argued that governments should set resilience standards, which operators would be required to meet.

The United Kingdom Government is set to introduce a national resilience strategy, so will the First Minister make the case for the development of resilience standards for vital public infrastructure?

The First Minister

I am happy to look into that and of course it is important that those principles are included in all the work that the Scottish Government does as well.

The member is right to raise the issue of the climate emergency, because these severe weather events are being caused by climate change, and it is really important that everything that we do recognises that. The climate emergency is central to all our infrastructure planning work and it is important that we continue to develop our work in that way. However, I will certainly ask the minister concerned to write to the member with further detail on how we will liaise with the UK Government in relation to that particular proposal.

Gender-based Violence

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

4. To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Government is taking to ensure that gender-based violence is being tackled in Scotland, in light of the start tomorrow of the 16 days of activism against gender-based violence. (S6F-01563)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Violence against women and girls is abhorrent. That is why our equally safe strategy to address violence against women and girls is so vital.

We have already strengthened legislation, taken action to address the social drivers that perpetuate gender-based violence and invested record levels of funding in front-line services and supporting survivors. The Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018 criminalises coercive and controlling behaviour, and we have taken forward work to ensure that people who are working in the public sector can confidently and sensitively work with people who have been affected by violence against women and girls through the equally safe in practice initiative.

The delivering equally safe fund will provide £19 million this year to support more than 120 projects that focus on early intervention, prevention and support services.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

Research continues to show an enormous prevalence of gender-based violence in all areas of life. For example, the Trades Union Congress found that more than half of women in the workplace have experienced sexual harassment but that 80 per cent of them did not report it. What is the Government doing to ensure that misogynistic abuse is taken seriously and that survivors feel able to report it?

The First Minister

This is an extremely important issue. Baroness Helena Kennedy’s report on misogyny and the criminal law, which was commissioned by the Government and published earlier this year, made several recommendations on gaps in the law that could be addressed by new criminal offences to tackle misogynistic behaviour. Some of those recommendations are controversial, and we are committed to consulting on proposals that would give effect to them in this parliamentary year.

The TUC’s report underscores the importance of ensuring that victims of misogynistic behaviour feel empowered to report it with confidence that their concerns will be taken seriously by their employers and, where criminal activity is alleged, by the police.

Pam Gosal (Conservative, West Scotland)

This week, a United Nations expert on violence against women has condemned the Scottish National Party’s gender recognition reforms. The UN expert claimed that the bill could allow

violent males to access women-only spaces, posing a risk to the safety of both women and trans women. The expert appealed to the Scottish Government to set aside more time to consider the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill’s possible unintended consequences. Does the First Minister agree with the UN expert that the bill should be postponed so that those legitimate concerns about women’s safety can be addressed?

The First Minister

I believe that people who are responsible for violent attacks against women are those who perpetrate those attacks. Where, as is very often the case, those are violent men, it is violent men who we should be focusing on. They continue to pose the biggest risk to women, and I do not believe that we should further stigmatise the trans community because of the actions of violent men. At the moment, violent men who want to access women-only spaces do not need a gender recognition certificate to do that. Let us focus on the problem. When the problem is violent men, that is what we should focus on.

We will respond in full to the comments that were made by the person from the UN, although I am not sure that they were quite as they were characterised in the question. However, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government will respond in detail to the issues that were raised. Many of those issues have already been discussed and addressed by the Parliament during stages 1 and 2 of the consideration of the bill. Of course, the Parliament will shortly have the opportunity to discuss the bill again during stage 3 of the legislative process.

Mobile Phones for Prisoners (Cost)

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

5. To ask the First Minister how much the Scottish Prison Service has spent on providing free mobile phones to all prisoners. (S6F-01572)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

At the start of the pandemic, we took the decision to provide mobile phones to people in custody to allow them to maintain vital family communication, including, and perhaps especially, with children during what was an incredibly challenging period when normal visiting was not possible. Between then and April 2022, the amount that has been spent is £4.12 million.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

The First Minister’s Government is slashing budgets for our cops, courts and prisons. We get that money is tight, so how on earth can mobile phones for prisoners at a cost of £4 million and rising be a priority? Taxpayers’ money should be spent on front-line services, not freebies for criminals.

The phones have been misused nearly 5,000 times. They have been used to order firebombings, for drug dealing and to threaten crime victims. Prison officers tell me that Scottish National Party-issued phones are putting them in danger by fuelling violence between inmates. When will the First Minister bin this costly and dangerous policy?

The First Minister

Russell Findlay is right about one thing: budgets are extremely tight. They are tight because of Tory economic mismanagement and Tory erosion of our budgets.

On the issue at hand, prison is about punishment, yes, but it should also be about rehabilitation. It is important that we do not lose focus on that. Mobile phone provision, which I think—I will be corrected if I am wrong—is something that the United Kingdom Government did during the pandemic, too, is about ensuring connections between prisoners and families, including children. That is important to rehabilitation, and rehabilitation is important to reducing offending and reoffending.

We will continue to consider all these issues carefully, but we will consider them in the context of a justice system that punishes criminals—that is extremely important—and which also seeks to rehabilitate people who commit crimes and to reduce reoffending, which is in the overall interest of communities across the country.

The Presiding Officer

I call Stephanie Callaghan to ask question 6. [

Interruption

.] I suspend business for a moment.

12:31 Meeting suspended.

12:31 On resuming—

Independence Referendum (Supreme Court Decision)

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

6. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to the Supreme Court decision regarding legislating on an independence referendum. (S6F-01564)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Although I am of course disappointed by it, I respect and accept the Supreme Court’s judgment on the Lord Advocate’s reference regarding the Scottish Parliament’s powers to legislate for

an independence referendum. However, the denial of democracy by Westminster parties demonstrates beyond any doubt that the notion of the United Kingdom as a voluntary partnership of nations is not now a reality, if it ever was.

It of course remains open to the UK Government to respect democracy and reach an agreement with the Scottish Government for a lawful, constitutional and democratic referendum. However, regardless of attempts by Westminster to block democracy, I will always work to ensure that Scotland’s voice is heard and that the future of Scotland is always in Scotland’s hands.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

Yesterday’s ruling has profound implications for the UK and Scotland’s democracy, and in particular, as the First Minister says, for the notion of the UK being a voluntary partnership of nations. If the UK Government wants to evidence that it is a voluntary union, all that it has to do is to stop standing in the way of democracy, come to the table and reach an agreement with the Scottish Government on holding a legal referendum. Why does the First Minister think that it is continuing to shy away from doing so?

The First Minister

It is quite simple: unionist Westminster politicians want to silence Scotland’s voice, because they are scared of what Scotland might say. Any politician who was confident of their case and of being able to persuade others of their case would not be trying to block democracy; they would be embracing it. I think that we know everything that we need to know about the views of Westminster unionist parties from their determination to block Scotland’s democracy, but it will not prevail.

Unionist politicians with critical faculties and, perhaps, the power of independent thinking probably understand that yesterday’s judgment raises profoundly uncomfortable questions about the basis and future of the United Kingdom. Any partnership in which one partner needs the consent of another to choose its future is not voluntary or even a partnership.

Within the UK right now, it is the case that England could decide to become independent, but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland supposedly cannot. That is not a partnership—it is not voluntary and it is not equal. However, Scotland’s voice will not be silenced. Scotland’s future is up to the people of Scotland, and that will always be the case.

Jim Fairlie (Scottish National Party, Perthshire South and Kinross-shire)

Douglas Ross keeps saying that no one on these benches is asked, “How would you stay in the union?” The answer is simple—if a party wins an election with that in its manifesto, it will get to dictate the terms.

With that in mind, this Scottish Parliament has the biggest-ever majority for an independence referendum in the history of devolution, but it has been blocked from enacting that mandate. Can the First Minister inform the Parliament whether she has had any indication from the UK Government as to how the people of Scotland can exercise their democratic right and have a choice in their future?

The First Minister

The mandate for an independence referendum in this Parliament is undeniable. There is a clear majority for that and, on any other measure of democracy in any other country, we would not have politicians seeking to deny that. I stand ready to discuss the issue with the UK Government at any time, but I fully anticipate that its democracy denial will continue, at least in the short term, because it is scared of the outcome of a democratic process.

I watched Douglas Ross and others squirming on that issue yesterday on television. On the one hand, they were trying to say that the United Kingdom is a voluntary union but, on the other hand, they were gleefully trying to defend the fact that Scotland has no way of choosing a different future. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

Please answer briefly, First Minister.

The First Minister

It is not democratic and it is not sustainable. Let us have a proper process and let the people of Scotland decide our own future.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

When asked by Glenn Campbell, during a BBC debate two days before the Holyrood election, what voters who

want Nicola Sturgeon as First Minister but do not want independence

should do

, the First Minister confidently said:

“They should vote for me”.

Why are her colleagues now claiming that those voters support independence? Is that the same deep-seated duplicity that we can expect in any de facto independence referendum at the next general election? [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, members.

Briefly, First Minister.

The First Minister

Briefly, if the Tories are now reduced to suggesting that people in Scotland did not know that I supported a referendum, the Tories are even more desperate than I thought that they were.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

He was quoting your own words.

The First Minister

Douglas Ross says that Craig Hoy was just quoting my own words. If the Tories do not think that my words were clear enough in the election last year, how about their words? The Tory message could not have been clearer. They said that, if the Scottish National Party won the election, there would be a referendum, and that the only way to stop that was to vote Tory. That seems pretty clear to me. Guess what—the SNP won the election, so it is time to have a referendum.

Ukrainian Refugees (Accommodation)

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

7. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to ensure that refugees from Ukraine have suitable accommodation on arrival in Scotland. (S6F-01560)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

With more than 21,500 arrivals from Ukraine with a Scottish sponsor, Scotland continues to provide sanctuary to more displaced people from Ukraine per head than any other part of the United Kingdom, and I thank people across Scotland for their efforts in achieving that.

Of course, our priority is to ensure that the immediate needs of those who arrive are met, but we are clear that we do not want anyone to spend more time than is absolutely necessary in welcome accommodation. Although we are ensuring that we have that temporary welcome accommodation, which is safe and suitable, we are also taking a number of actions that are focused on providing sustainable longer-term accommodation for those who are here and those who are still arriving. That will include a new Scotland-led host recruitment campaign, which will launch at the end of the month.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests.

The First Minister will be aware of the acute housing crisis in Edinburgh. The current contract for MS Victoria is due to end in January 2023. Figures that have been published by the Scottish Government show that more than 1,200 people are currently on the ship, so how will the Scottish Government ensure that the capacity that is provided by the ship is retained? Will she urgently look to expand the criteria for the largely unspent £50 million housing fund for local authorities, to include purchasing property from the market and working with agents to retrofit buildings? Will the First Minister confirm continued funding for the city’s welcome hub?

The First Minister

Yes, we will continue to provide support. These are very real issues, and Sarah Boyack is right to raise them. They are issues that all countries that have stepped up to help Ukrainians are facing right now. I was speaking with the Taoiseach at the British-Irish Council a couple of weeks ago, and I know that the Republic of Ireland is dealing with those issues too, as is the Welsh Government and the United Kingdom Government in respect of England.

It is right that we have welcomed as many Ukrainians as possible, and it is right that we now work through those challenges. I know that Neil Gray is keeping members and Parliament as a whole updated. The £50 million longer-term resettlement fund is important, and we will continue to look at the eligibility for that. It is helping us to bring void properties back into use. We are also investing heavily in our wider affordable housing programme and will continue to do so.

In relation to people who have been displaced from Ukraine, we will continue to work with the City of Edinburgh Council and local authorities across Scotland to ensure that that support can continue. I take the opportunity to put on record my thanks to local councils, which have done fantastic work on that.

These are not easy challenges for any Government to navigate, but we have a moral obligation to do so and we will continue to work hard to ensure that we are doing right by those from Ukraine who need our support, help and welcome.

Private Finance Initiative (Contract Costs)

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

As members know, because it is part of the United Kingdom, Scotland’s budget is tied to the poor decisions that are made by the Tory Government at Westminster. However, there is another strain on public finances in Scotland; namely, repayment of debts from private finance initiatives, which were designed by the Tories and rolled out by an enthusiastic Labour Party.

Will the First Minister set out the current annual bill for Scotland’s heath service from Labour’s decision to build hospitals, including University hospital Hairmyres in my East Kilbride constituency, using that reckless and costly scheme, as well as any impacts of the current cost crisis on those debts?

The Presiding Officer

For clarity, this is general and constituency supplementaries, for those who did not know.

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

The question highlights one of the ironies of previous lines of questioning at this First Minister’s question time.

Since 2006-07, the cumulative bill to taxpayers for ruinously expensive Tory-Labour PFI and public-private partnership contracts is £3.2 billion, which is £2 billion over and above the initial capital value of the projects, with costs increasing due to inflation.

Every year, we are paying more than £250 million for the contracts that were commenced under previous Administrations, which include Hairmyres hospital. The record of this Government, in line with our record of protecting the national health service, is one of unpicking Tory-Labour PFI and PPP contracts.

Domestic Abuse (Justice System)

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

Last year, Adrienne McCartney spoke to the

Sunday Post

and shared her harrowing story about how, time after time, the police and prosecutors let her down in a case of domestic abuse. Last Sunday, the

Sunday Post

revealed that, sadly, Adrienne has since passed away. Her solicitor said:

“She should be here today and the fact that she is not is an indictment of the system and how it addresses domestic abuse.”

One leading academic believes that the number of people who are dying as a result of domestic abuse could, due to ill health and suicide, be six times higher than official statistics. Given that this week in Parliament we are putting such a focus on the elimination of violence against women, why is the justice system in Scotland currently failing so many vulnerable women, and what legislation is the First Minister and her Government proposing to introduce to address those horrific crimes against women?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I take the opportunity to convey my deep heartfelt sympathies to the family and friends of Adrienne

McCartney

.

Police and prosecutors operate independently of Government, so I will not go into details that would stray into their independent roles.

I will say, and have said many times before, that I do not believe that Scotland—or any country, for that matter—yet does enough when it comes to preventing and responding to domestic abuse. The justice system has a very large part to play in that, but—I reflected on this earlier—we need to do more to tackle the behaviours that cause domestic abuse in order to prevent it in the first place. The Lord Advocate is a big advocate for and champion of doing that. The justice system also has to respond better to support victims of domestic abuse; I know that that is a real priority for her.

More widely, I have already spoken about the Helena Kennedy report on misogyny. We also have proposals from Lady Dorrian in relation to how the justice system deals with cases of sexual violence and sexual offences, which will include domestic abuse. The Government will take forward many of those proposals in legislative form during the remainder of this parliamentary session. Some of them will be controversial, so I expect very rigorous debate and scrutiny in Parliament. However, I hope that, as we consider those proposals, Jamie Greene’s very good question will stay in our minds, and that we find ways to unite to make the necessary improvements to our justice system so that victims of domestic abuse are not let down, as they are too often, here in Scotland and across the world.

Breast Cancer Screening (Resumption)

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

The breast cancer screening programme was paused for all women during the pandemic, and has been paused even longer for women over 70. It appears that a further restriction has been applied, and that women over 75 are being denied breast cancer screening. A constituent who raised that with me describes the decision as “discriminatory” and “ageist”. Can the First Minister advise whether that restriction is just in NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, or does it apply Scotland-wide? If it does, will she reverse that decision?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to write to Jackie Baillie with the detail on that; it is important that we

make sure that the detail is right.

The restoration of breast cancer screening for the age groups for which screening is advised has already happened. For the older age groups, which are screened on a self-referral basis, it has been restored in a phased way. I will come back to Jackie Baillie, via the health secretary, with the details.

I will say one thing finally, as the person who is responsible for all the decisions that were taken during the pandemic. Those decisions were not taken lightly. The decision to pause the screening programme, including the breast cancer screening programme, was one that I know was agonised over by the then chief medical officer and by others who were responsible for those decisions.

It is important that we get this right and that we prioritise those for whom breast screening is recommended, which is what has been done. As part of the overall recovery plan for the national health service, our priority is to get all services back to functioning as they were before the pandemic, as people have a right to expect.

Preplanned Funerals (Company Bankruptcies)

Clare Adamson (Scottish National Party, Motherwell and Wishaw)

Following United Kingdom regulations for funeral-planning companies being adopted by the Financial Conduct Authority, a number of companies have gone into administration, including Safe Hands Funeral Plans and One Life Funeral Planning. Some of my constituents are worried about whether they will get any of their money back. Research shows that such savings schemes are overwhelmingly used by the most financially vulnerable people.

Can the First Minister offer any advice or point to support that is available for people who are affected? Has the Scottish Government had any engagement with the UK Government on calls for a UK support scheme to be set up?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I thank Clare Adamson for raising an issue that is not just important but is extremely sensitive. We welcomed regulation of the sector, for which we had been pressing the UK Government for some time.

The UK Government’s action, however welcome it is, has come rather late—too late for some people.

I understand that Dignity Funerals is currently honouring plans that were made with Safe Hands Funeral Plans, and I welcome that support. Of course, regulation is a reserved matter, so I encourage the UK Government to look at the situation and consider whether it should provide additional support. If Clare Adamson wishes to pass on details of her affected constituents, I will ensure that the relevant minister looks at the issue and raises it with the UK Government. The Scottish Government also provides support for funeral costs through the funeral support payment; I encourage anyone who might be eligible to apply.

Teacher Safety (Aberdeen)

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

In February, I asked what action the Government was taking after a survey showed that nearly half of our dedicated hardworking teachers in Aberdeen were considering quitting due to high levels of physical and verbal abuse. At best, the First Minister’s answer was vague and non-committal. Yesterday evening, following the escalation of physical and verbal violence at Northfield academy in Aberdeen, teachers there voted in favour of industrial action over concerns about the safety of staff.

Teachers should never be subjected to violence, whether it is verbal or physical. As nothing has apparently changed since February, I ask again: what is the Government doing now to stop that appalling abuse?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

No teacher should ever experience abuse in the classroom. I hope that that unites us across the chamber.

The employers of teachers are local authorities. I expect them to have support in place for teachers and to support teachers’ wellbeing. I know that local authorities take that seriously.

I will meet the president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities later today, when we will happily discuss what more the Scottish Government can do to support that.

It is vital that we support teachers in a range of ways—and, indeed, that we support other public sector workers and workers generally who interact with the public, to ensure that they are free and safe from abuse or attacks.

Net Zero Energy

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

Following her correction to the

Official Report

on net energy consumption, will the First Minister’s new understanding of the facts cause the Scottish Government to reconsider its stance on all forms of net zero energy—for example, nuclear power in the south of Scotland which, as the First Minister can see, plays a vital role in energy security?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

My understanding of Scotland’s energy potential is as it has always been. Scotland is blessed with vast renewable energy potential. The Government will focus not just on talking it up instead of talking it down, as so many of the other parties in the chamber do, but on supporting growth of renewable energy, offshore and on-shore wind, and green hydrogen energy.

The fact of the matter is that Scotland is one of the luckiest countries in the world when it comes to energy. It is our job to maximise that potential.

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will be a brief suspension to enable people to leave the gallery and chamber quietly.

12:52 Meeting suspended.

12:53 On resuming—

Renewable Energy Sector (Economic Impact)

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I ask those people who are leaving the chamber and the public gallery to do so as quickly and quietly as possible, as Parliament is still in session.

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-06229, in the name of Paul McLennan, on “The Economic Impact of Scotland’s Renewable Energy Sector—2022 Update”. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put. As ever, I invite members who wish to participate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible.

I call Paul McLennan to open the debate. You have around seven minutes.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament welcomes the publication of

The Economic Impact of Scotland’s Renewable Energy Sector – 2022 Update

, by Scottish Renewables and the Fraser of Allander Institute, which it understands provides the latest economic output and job figures for Scotland’s renewables energy industry; understands that the report demonstrates that Scotland’s renewable energy industry and its supply chain supported more than 27,000 full time equivalent jobs, and that onshore wind supported the most employment across Scotland’s economy from the renewable energy sector, with 10,120 full time equivalent roles, followed by offshore wind with 6,735 full-time equivalent roles, and hydropower with 4,395 full-time equivalent roles; highlights the report’s findings that Scotland’s renewable energy industry generated £5.6 billion of output in 2020; considers that the report found onshore wind had the largest estimated economic output, generating nearly £2.5 billion, with offshore wind and hydropower both supporting more than £1.1 billion output, and welcomes what it sees as the strength of Scotland’s renewable energy industry and the energy security, economic, environmental and social benefits that it brings to communities across Scotland, including in East Lothian.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am delighted to introduce this members’ business debate on “The Economic Impact of Scotland’s Renewable Energy Sector—2022 Update”. I will talk about the report in more detail later, but I want to lead with the work that is on-going in East Lothian.

A few months after being elected, I set up the East Lothian energy forum, which recognises the sustainable job opportunities that East Lothian has already and whose number will continue to grow. The forum has four clear workstreams: supply, skills, community benefits and logistics.

East Lothian has existing connections to the grid at Cockenzie, where the Inch Cape wind farm has the potential for 1GW. Seagreen, with its 1.5GW potential, will also be brought on shore at Cockenzie. Merrick Bank, with its 4GW potential, will have its grid connection at Torness. That is 6GW to 7GW being brought on shore in East Lothian alone.

Neart na Gaoithe wind farm, with its 450MW capacity, has its substation in Dunbar and its grid connection in Torness, in my constituency. I met with NnG yesterday. The project currently has more than 100 direct jobs in its Edinburgh office and far more throughout the supply chain. In addition, there will be 50 direct new jobs, which will exist for the full 25 years of the wind farm, at the operations and maintenance base in Eyemouth, just south of East Lothian, on land owned by the Eyemouth Harbour Trust. That base is due to be officially opened in January 2023.

EDF Renewables and its partners the ESB Group are committed to using Scottish suppliers for NnG and have a track record of doing so already. Working alongside NnG’s tier 1 contractors, businesses can be confident that the Scottish supply chain can play a big part in the delivery of the project. NnG is working closely with tier 1 preferred suppliers to encourage them to use Scottish suppliers for work packages at tier 2 and below.

Other projects in East Lothian include the eastern link, a £1.3 billion project jointly managed by SP Energy Networks and National Grid electricity transmission. The project links Dunbar to Hawthorn Pit in County Durham. Again in East Lothian, Fred Olsen Renewables will re-power and extend its Crystal Rig wind farm. Aikengall community wind farm also contributes to the local community.

In the past few weeks, I have agreed a £1 million fuel poverty fund, launching on 1 December, that will help those who are most in need in East Lothian. The world-leading thermal storage company Adin Sunamp was recently awarded £10 million by the Scottish National Investment Bank.

I have also had further discussions about hydrogen, solar and other possible energy sources and about ScotWind, to look at how East Lothian can assist in some of those success stories. Tarmac’s cement works will also require innovative solutions to meet its net zero commitments. We can see in the constituency the benefit that renewable power is already having and will continue to have.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

I thank Mr McLennan for the work that he is doing in the cross-party group on the development of renewable energy. Does he agree that, if we are to achieve the maximum potential for renewable energy in Scotland, there must be a focus on speeding up the processes for obtaining permissions, licences and consents, not only for development both on and offshore, but for good connections? Without those permissions, licences, consents and agreements, projects can often be delayed for a long time, threatening the good work that Mr McLennan is advocating.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I agree with the member. That issue was discussed by the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee when it considered the introduction of national planning framework 4 and the importance of resourcing Marine Scotland, in particular. It is vitally important.

I will now speak about the report “The Economic Impact of Scotland’s Renewable Energy Sector”. The report presents estimates of the economic impact of Scotland’s renewable energy industry. One key factor is the use of more reliable data. I know that that has been picked up on by the Office for National Statistics, and I would like to hear the minister pick up on that, too.

Scotland’s renewable energy industry and its supply chain supported more than 27,000 full-time equivalent jobs and generated £5.6 billion of output in 2020. The latest available figures show that onshore wind supported most employment in the renewables sector, with 10,124 full-time equivalent roles. That was followed by offshore wind, which had 6,735 roles and hydro power, which had 4,395 roles. If we include spillover impacts, which are the economic activities stimulated across the wider economy, onshore wind had the biggest output, generating almost £2.5 billion, with offshore wind and hydro power both supporting more than £1.1 billion of output.

To demonstrate how Scotland’s renewable energy industry is growing in our progress towards a cleaner, cheaper and more resilient energy system, Scottish Renewables has urged the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments to develop stronger data on the renewable energy sector.

What are the key next steps to grow Scotland’s renewable energy sector and economy? In its briefing, Scottish Renewables recommends that the following steps be taken to ensure continued growth in jobs in, and economic output from, the renewables sector. We need to continue to establish a

“Low-Carbon Industrial Strategy to drive forward renewables-led investment and a just transition for Scottish clean energy suppliers and manufacturers.”

Scotland needs to develop the existing renewables industrial strategy, and the supply chain needs to increase its capacity to deliver the required skills and manufacturing to service all our renewable energy projects. The delivery of such a strategy will provide clear direction for the renewables industry and the supply chain, ensuring that our net zero ambitions are achieved while delivering fresh economic opportunities and new jobs.

Returning to the point that Fergus Ewing made, I note that Scottish Renewables states that we need to

“Complete the National Planning Framework 4 reforms”

to ensure that we have a net zero-driven planning system that is focused on tacking the climate emergency through the deployment of renewable energy. Scottish Renewables was at the NPF4 meeting on Tuesday and it warmly welcomed that as a major step towards achieving a net zero-driven planning system. Adopting the revised NPF4 will also help to drive new investment, deliver on our net zero ambitions and help to achieve energy security for Scotland.

Scottish Renewables states that we need

“a Rural Clean Heat Fund to ignite a transformation of renewable heating solutions for Scotland’s island and rural communities.”

A third of East Lothian is rural. With readily deployable solutions being available, the Government must move at pace to introduce clean heat technologies into rural communities, ensuring that the expertise of tradespeople is developed and sustained, and that is before we talk about retrofitting. Doing that will allow us to phase out high-carbon heating across Scotland’s countryside, delivering new investment, tackling fuel poverty and supporting net zero island and rural communities.

We need to enhance the role that Scottish ports play in building a low-carbon economy through a net zero ports and infrastructure programme. I have had the pleasure of meeting both the Cromarty Firth and Aberdeen ports and seeing the fantastic work that is being carried out there. All ports must be supported to build the essential supply chain and manufacturing base for offshore renewables.

We need to complete an onshore wind sector deal with the industry to deliver the 12GW of additional onshore wind power that Scotland will need by 2030 in order to achieve net zero. Onshore wind is a tried and tested technology that can provide low-cost power, helping to keep consumer bills down and supporting the competitiveness of our renewable energy industry.

We need to support the immediate growth of Scottish renewable energy suppliers by working with them in the near term on net zero projects to assist with the success of local supply chain companies.

With a short-term offshore wind pipeline of 6.9GW and potential for more than 10GW of onshore wind, the existing pipeline of renewable energy projects that need to be delivered is extensive. We need to prepare for the future project pipeline, increasing the economic opportunities of projects and meeting the increased demand for low-carbon technologies while boosting green jobs and skills.

In conclusion, let us look ahead to a bright future for our renewables sector, creating local jobs, building supply chains and moving Scotland to net zero.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I congratulate Paul McLennan on securing this debate and bringing the issue to the chamber. The Scottish Renewables and Fraser of Allander Institute report certainly presents our renewable energy sector in a positive light. The sector and its supply chain generate £2.5 billion of gross value added and £5.6 billion of economic growth, and they support more than 27,000 jobs, 16,000 of which come from our onshore and offshore wind sector.

However, more must be done to extend investment and job creation outside wind. We must ensure that Scotland has a wide portfolio in the renewables sector. If we continue to put all our renewables eggs in one basket, we will never be fully energy secure. With onshore wind alone generating £2.5 billion, Scotland’s existing wind energy investments should be used to drive investment in other renewable technologies.

Industry experts are in agreement. Jason Higgs, energy transition leader for PwC, said:

“Scotland is facing a continuous rise in the demand for electricity which must be met with a huge increase in low carbon energy generation, new ways of working and a more efficient whole system approach”.

There are, for example, great opportunities in solar. Scotland’s solar industry is now fully subsidy free, with installation companies thriving. Solar Energy Scotland has said that, if the Scottish Government was to set a 2030 deployment ambition of 4GW to 6GW of solar energy capacity, the industry could support nearly 9,000 jobs.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Will Graham Simpson give way on that point?

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Yes, I will, because I noticed a motion from Fergus Ewing earlier on this very subject.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

I am most grateful to Graham Simpson, and I agree with his remarks on solar power. There was cross-party support for a motion that I lodged recently on the ambition that he described.

Does he agree that some low-hanging fruit can be achieved quite early? For example, the widespread application of solar panels to public buildings would reduce the cost of electricity to the public sector, thereby achieving massive savings as well as contributing to our net zero targets.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I completely agree with Fergus Ewing’s excellent point. I have had discussions with people at Glasgow airport, for example, who want to have quite a big solar farm but who are frustrated by the planning system, which has been mentioned by Paul McLennan. We need to unblock such things.

Hydrogen, too, would benefit from additional investment and ambition. Many of the skills requirements for the hydrogen industry align with existing skills in our oil and gas industry. Given funding for projects such as the £9.4 million hydrogen storage facility in Glasgow, ground-breaking schemes could easily be established across the country. Hydrogen is part of the future.

I will say something about the importance of education and skills in renewables. Organisations such as Skills Development Scotland have raised concerns that labour force demand within the industry will not be met, due to market uncertainty. Recruitment of and investment in our graduates continues to be stagnant. Across the UK, we have a green energy skills gap of 200,000 people. Those things cannot be solved by energy companies on their own. The Government must take steps to ensure that young people have the skills for those jobs.

Finally, I will mention small and medium-sized enterprises. Much of the revenue that is generated by the renewables sector comes from large firms. A recent report from the Royal Bank of Scotland details a £22 billion economic boost by 2030 if we meet our net zero targets, and it says that SMEs could cater for 53 per cent of that but that the number of people who work in renewables to deliver infrastructure would have to more than double in order for that to be achieved.

There are lots of opportunities in the sector. That is something that we can all get behind.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

I thank Paul McLennan for leading the debate. Scotland recognises the emergency that our climate faces. We have an ambitious net zero target, and our transition to a clean energy system is well under way. My colleagues have already mentioned the Fraser of Allander Institute report, which highlights that the economic impact of Scotland’s renewable energy industry is not limited to the economic activity of the sector but extends beyond it.

Renewables projects create jobs for people throughout the supply chain, from research and design to the maintenance and development of energy storage systems—all of which have a knock-on impact on local economies right across Scotland, from my constituency of Uddingston and Bellshill to Orkney. Although the renewables sector is flourishing with creative thinking and ambitious policy making, we can support further growth across all renewables, creating massive opportunities for new industries, jobs, training and skills.

I will focus on the Scottish solar industry. Solar is the most democratised form of energy—it goes on the rooftops of homes and businesses and, undoubtedly, has strong potential for reducing fuel poverty, with targeted deployment. However, I argue that it is Scotland’s most underutilised renewable resource, despite being the cheapest energy source that is available to Scottish people at a time of rapidly rising costs. The untapped potential of Scottish solar means that there is a unique opportunity for major growth.

If we look at Denmark, for example, we will see the brightness of the opportunity. Although Denmark is on a similar latitude to Scotland, Danish solar generation contributes nearly five times as much to the Danish electricity mix, on a percentage basis, as Scottish solar does to Scottish electricity. To capitalise on the sunny prospectus that solar can provide Scotland, Scotland needs to be bolder, as other nations have been, and that includes setting a target for solar energy generation. Analysis of UK, United States and European Union employment data shows that, if the Scottish Government set a 2030 deployment ambition of 4GW to 6GW of solar energy capacity, the industry could support 9,000 new jobs.

I look forward to the cabinet secretary’s update on Scotland’s solar vision within the energy strategy and just transition plan that is due later this year. I hope that the strategy will include a clearly defined gigawatt target that is in line with other countries’ ambitious targets, as called for in

Colin Smyth (Labour, South Scotland)

I thank Paul McLennan for lodging his motion, particularly given the timeliness of the debate. Another conference of the parties has just ended, and climate change is in the news, but once again our world leaders have failed to recognise that it is not some future crisis; it is here and now, and it will get worse the more their inaction continues, with those who can least afford it being the hardest hit.

Just as we need to act with more urgency internationally, we need to do so at home, too, and in a way that delivers a just transition. At the very heart of that action needs to be a jobs-led drive for renewables. As we have heard, the Fraser of Allander Institute report “The Economic Impact of Scotland’s Renewable Energy Sector” highlights the progress to date. An estimated 27,000 full-time equivalent jobs contributed more than £5.6 billion of output in 2020, but the Scottish Government’s low-carbon economic strategy in 2010 promised 130,000 jobs by 2020. We were told that we would be the Saudi Arabia of renewables.

What can we do to make that happen? If we consider which sectors can tackle Scotland’s sluggish economic growth and create a greener and fairer country with good secure jobs wherever people live in the country, we find that all roads lead to renewables. Our net zero targets are not a barrier to economic growth; they are actually the path to it. However, to achieve that, we need to break down barriers. Labour has consistently called for a proper industrial strategy that is focused on four missions: delivering clean power, harnessing data for the public good and building a more caring and a more resilient economy.

One of the last acts of the UK Government’s Industrial Strategy Council was to publish a really informative report on the drive for coronavirus vaccines. The report set out how industrial policy was absolutely instrumental in supporting the brilliance of our scientists to deliver those vaccines. It mentioned the targeted investment in life sciences over many years, the strategic procurement and advance purchase of the vaccine and the convening power of the state to bring everyone together—public, private and voluntary sector partners—to co-create and co-deliver that industrial policy.

An industrial strategy involves prioritising which industries to focus on. Imagine what would happen if we brought the same industrial policy focus to renewables as was brought to Covid vaccines. We could have clear targets, such as the target of 12GW of additional onshore wind by 2030 that Scottish Renewables has called for, and the target of 4GW to 6GW of solar capacity, which Stephanie Callaghan mentioned. Crucially, we need a clear commitment to invest in suppliers to build capacity and capability, including of our ports, the importance of which Paul McLennan highlighted, so that the supply chain jobs come to Scottish firms.

That is why Labour has consistently called for proper conditionality when it comes to leasing our sea beds in connection with offshore wind, and for all the funds that come from the recent ScotWind leasing to be ring fenced for a renewables fund that can be used to invest in making our supply chains ready to deliver.

Data is a key part of any industrial strategy. I was struck by the fact that the Fraser of Allander Institute mentioned in its report that its figures were estimates, because we do not even define the renewable energy sector in national statistics, never mind collect the data. How can we understand where skills shortages are if we do not have better and more open data on jobs? How do we ensure that economic growth is inclusive and benefits all of Scotland if we cannot even tell how many renewables jobs there are in my South Scotland region because we do not collect such geographical data?

There are many other barriers to break down to ensure that the positive words in NPF4 on renewables translate to delivery on the ground. For example, we must ensure, as Fergus Ewing mentioned, that consent is given at pace, by the Crown Estate in the case of offshore wind, and by our underresourced council planning departments in the case of onshore wind.

We must also ensure that we help to build capacity in our supply chains by setting out an energy route map, with timelines for a steady stream of work that will give supply chain companies the confidence to invest. If we do that, the prize will be great. We can learn from the mistakes of the past and fulfil the enormous potential of renewables, thereby maximising not only the cut in emissions that we need to deliver to meet our climate targets but the economic benefits, so that we can deliver the genuine jobs-led just transition that everybody wants.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I welcome the

debate, which my colleague Paul McLennan initiated in response to the Fraser of Allander Institute’s report, “The Economic Impact of Scotland’s Renewable Energy Sector”.

I, too, have been concerned for some time about the weakness of data collection in relation to Scottish business and the economy, so I am glad that the issue features in the report. I also acknowledge that, although there are reasons to be impressed by the progress that has been made in Scotland, such as the 27,000 jobs and £5.6 billion of output that have been mentioned, the data provides no grounds for complacency. There remains much to be done, and I add my voice to the calls for more utilisation of solar energy, among others.

A recent analysis from Landfall Strategy Group indicated that the prospects for the renewable energy sector are huge and that the current output could eventually be dwarfed. Indeed, the potential is there for the sector to be economically even more significant than the oil and gas sector if policy development is effective, investment is supported and focused appropriately, and the necessary supply chains are developed.

It would help if the Scottish Parliament had the comprehensive range of powers that is needed to address all the matters involved. Currently, fundamental powers, such as those relating to taxation policy, energy policy and the ability to borrow to invest are located at Westminster. Imagine what could be done if all parties here agreed that those powers over Scotland’s renewable energy future should be vested here for the benefit of Scotland.

Given that much has still to be done, I would like to introduce an important area that has been mentioned, which relates to data definition and collection requirements. In that context, I agree with the Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, who wrote in 2019:

“Getting the measure right is crucially important. If we measure the wrong thing, we will do the wrong thing. If our measures tell us everything is fine when it really isn’t, we will be complacent.”

If we are truly interested in impact, it is not good enough to simply extend what has historically been gathered in other sectors and then do the same for the renewables sector. We need to develop and capture new metrics that encourage wellbeing.

Also, as I have consistently argued, we need impact data disaggregated by sex. I can see no reason why the creativity and dynamism of women should not feature strongly in the renewables sector. Capturing the right data will be only the start of ensuring that women are at the heart of the just transition in the sector as it develops.

Some people have argued that part of the problem is that the renewables sector is seen as a market rather than a sector in its own right. Tragically, we have been reliant on data gathered for other sectors—from construction to professional services, forestry and shipping. Therefore, we must collect the right data to inform policy making. I agree with a similar view expressed by members and Scottish Renewables.

In data collection and in ensuring that women and wellbeing are at the heart of all policies, we have a joint mission ahead to which I look forward to contributing.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank Paul McLennan for giving us all the opportunity not only to celebrate the progress that we have made so far with renewables in Scotland but to look at what is in store for the next chapter.

The report that we are debating is a useful baseline. It captures the jobs and economic benefit delivered in Scotland to date, but, in the years to come, we will look back at today’s figures and see just how small they were in comparison to what will be achieved. I will focus my contribution on the onshore wind sector and the need to not forget about onshore wind but double down on its progress in the years ahead.

Onshore wind continues to deliver the lion’s share of the economic benefit of renewables in Scotland. It remains the lowest-cost renewable energy and, dispersed across Scotland, onshore wind farms continue to provide predictable supply at a time when electricity demand for heating and transport continues to rise.

Year on year, the carbon content of our electricity generation is falling, largely due to onshore wind. With that, in turn, the climate impact of every electric vehicle and heat pump falls. Step by step, turbine by turbine, we are decarbonising electricity, largely with onshore wind and almost without noticing.

Meanwhile, from Shetland to the Borders, wind farms continue to provide community financial benefit and, with new projects, there will be new opportunities for that benefit to spread more widely and to grow in value. Outside our national scenic areas, wind farms also provide the opportunity for investment in nature restoration, public access and economic diversification at scale in our uplands.

Public support for onshore wind remains consistently high and grows locally once communities have had the experience of hosting turbines. After nearly three decades, we now have a flourishing ecosystem of Scotland-based developers, subcontractors and specialists who are ready to support the next stage of growth in onshore wind. The real challenge will be to match that sector with an equally strong domestic supply chain for wind farm component manufacturing.

The renewed commitment to onshore wind in the Bute house agreement will help to provide certainty to manufacturers and others that there is a strong market and a supportive environment for investment in Scotland. A target of 12GW of additional onshore wind by 2030 backed up by planning reforms and a strong policy statement is the start of a sector deal that will drive investment. Let us remind ourselves that the sector is incredible. It has smashed every energy target that has been set at Holyrood since devolution. It is ready to meet the hardest challenge that it has been set to date.

That growth needs to take place at a scale that has never been seen before in Scotland. The pace of new development will need to speed up. We cannot afford to have wind farm projects languishing in the planning system for seven years, as has been the case recently. We are in a climate emergency. Good wind farm proposals in the right places need to be fast tracked through a streamlined planning process. We no longer have time to wait. The planning system must allow those machines to fight climate change.

However, it is not just new sites and new projects that are needed. Existing wind farms need to be repowered quickly with newer, more productive turbines. Repowering alone means another 600MW to 800MW every year for the next 15 to 20 years, so it is a huge mission. It will be our children who work on those wind farms, just as the hydro schemes from our grandparents’ generations are still spinning and creating employment today.

Endless renewable technologies supporting enduring jobs for generations to come: that will be the renewables story told by future reports. We just need to focus and realise that vision.

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I start by thanking Paul McLennan for lodging the motion and all members who participated in the debate for their contributions.

As others have said, the debate comes at a time when Scotland is tackling the twin issues of energy security and the cost of living crisis. In that context, we are pushing ahead at pace with our just transition to a net zero energy system and economy, so that we can play our role in tackling climate change and boost jobs and prosperity in Scotland.

Again as others have said, we are very lucky that we have a rich renewables endowment, which means that we can not only generate enough cheap green electricity in the times ahead to power Scotland’s economy and get away from the high energy prices that we are experiencing, but export electricity to our neighbours, supporting jobs here in Scotland. As Paul McLennan said in his opening speech, the sector is already supporting jobs in his East Lothian constituency and the wider region. That all contributes towards the decarbonisation ambitions of our partners, internationally and across these islands.

The scale and pace of change are unprecedented, which offers exciting opportunities to develop green jobs and a green supply chain.

The report highlights that the deployment of renewable energy technologies is paramount in the drive towards ending Scotland’s contribution to climate change, while bringing considerable benefits to our economy. The report also shows that the sector’s potential is vast in terms of gross value added and jobs. I am grateful to the Scottish Renewables Forum Ltd for commissioning that important work, which is helping bolster the evidence base as we drive forward the just energy transition.

The just energy transition—I am speaking as the just transition minister—is a key priority for the Scottish Government. Scotland’s natural resources mean that we are uniquely positioned to take advantage of the global shift to renewables through a just transition that delivers for people, places and communities in Scotland. We are taking steps to decarbonise the energy system to maximise the benefits of the energy transition for communities across Scotland, while responding to the twin challenges of energy security and the cost of living crisis.

I am clear that the energy transition must deliver for the people of Scotland. A key part of that is ensuring that the renewables sector, and the broader supply chain that supports it, grows in a way that secures high-quality, well-paid green jobs across communities in the country and supports energy affordability for people and businesses. As many members are aware, we will consult soon on a draft energy strategy and just transition plan that will set out, and seek views on, how we will realise those aims and many of the aspirations that have been expressed by members during the debate.

Scotland already has many of the skills that are needed to facilitate the energy sector’s transition to net zero. Our national strategy for economic transformation recognises skills as a critical ambition, and we are investing in the sector’s net zero transformation. Scotland needs access to an agile offshore energy workforce, so that people can transition more easily between roles in the offshore energy sectors. We know that that will not be a one-way transition, and people must be able to work flexibly across sectors. That us why, through the just transition fund, we recently announced funding of £5 million to OPITO—the Offshore Petroleum Industry Training Organisation—for a digital offshore energy skills passport, which will empower offshore workers to utilise their existing certification. Many members in the chamber have called for that measure.

We are also delivering a range of upskilling and retraining programmes, including individual training accounts and the flexible workforce development fund, and in 2021, we launched the green jobs workforce academy. We are also investing £75 million through the energy transition fund to support jobs and provide regional growth, and our green jobs fund will invest up to £100 million.

ScotWind is a huge initiative on the horizon, and knowledge and experience of our oil and gas sector and its supply chain will be crucial for Scotland in developing floating offshore wind technologies. ScotWind is the world’s largest commercial round for floating offshore wind. It will raise more than £750 million in revenues for Scotland and deliver several billion pounds more in rental revenues when projects become operational.

We already have a clear pipeline of projects throughout this decade, and a significant pipeline of projects will come from the ScotWind offshore wind leasing round. That is a huge economic opportunity for Scotland. We have had numerous meetings with representatives of the ScotWind projects, and we welcome the collective commitment that has been made to invest more than £28 billion in the Scottish supply chain across the 20 proposed ScotWind projects that have secured lease options.

There are already benefits across the country, including in areas such as East Lothian, which Paul McLennan represents. Community wind farms there are funding the BeGreen Dunbar energy advice centre, for example, which supports residents of Dunbar with energy-saving technologies and funding for eco-friendly community groups.

I will quickly touch on a couple of other areas that members mentioned. Stephanie Callaghan and others mentioned the exciting potential for solar energy. I assure members that the Bute house agreement between the Scottish Green Party and the Scottish National Party mentions solar properly—if I recall—and it will have a much bigger, renewed focus in the forthcoming draft energy strategy, which will go out for consultation.

Hydrogen was mentioned by many members. The growth of renewables and of the hydrogen economy are very much complementary. We need a strong renewables sector and domestic supply chain to support the development of Scotland’s hydrogen economy. We think that that is a massive opportunity not only for jobs here in Scotland but for Scotland’s exports to other countries, as there is a lot more potential demand for hydrogen across countries on the European continent, particularly in response to the energy crisis and to Putin’s war in Ukraine and its consequences.

I should also mention onshore wind. Mark Ruskell highlighted its importance, as did other members. We have a draft onshore wind policy statement, which includes a new ambition for an additional 8 to 12GW of onshore wind to be installed, for a total of 20GW overall by 2030. That is a pretty substantial ambition, which follows a long consultation process. We will publish the final statement with a decision on the 2030 ambition soon, and we will ensure that the benefits flow to our communities and the Scottish supply chain. We can see that there have been significant levels of community benefit across Scotland from onshore wind projects, amounting to tens of millions of pounds, and we want to ensure that that is increased in the years ahead.

I have outlined that we will publish our refreshed energy strategy for consultation, alongside our first just transition plan for energy. That will demonstrate how we will deliver for the people of Scotland, supporting our transition to a net zero energy system.

I again thank Paul McLennan for bringing this important and timely topic to the chamber for debate today.

13:32 Meeting suspended.

14:15 On resuming—

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Question Time

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body question time. If a member wishes to ask a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question or indicate so in the chat function by entering the letters RTS.

As ever, I make a plea for succinct questions, and answers to match.

Staff Cost Provision 2023-24

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

1. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether it will reject the annual survey of hours and earnings and average weekly earnings average of 4.2 per cent for uprating the staff cost provision in financial year 2023-24. (S6O-01610)

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

The SPCB is responsible for funding the members’ expenses scheme and for determining which indices are used to uprate the overall provisions, including staff cost provision. Individual MSPs, as employers, determine any salary increase for their staff within the overall staff cost provision.

As part of the annual budget cycle, the SPCB considers the indexation for uprating of all provisions, including staff cost provision. Although the basket of ASHE and AWE indices has been adopted in recent years as a steadier basis for any increase, that is a matter for SPCB judgment rather than automatic application, as we thoroughly consider all factors for financial year 2023-24.

The SPCB will submit its 2023-24 budget for consideration at the Finance and Public Administration Committee on 10 January. A bit like the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I might know but I am not able to say what the conclusion of our deliberations might be, but we will be determining the indices for all provisions in the coming weeks.

Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow)

I thank Mr Carlaw for his response. I am sure that the bond markets will be listening to whatever decisions are eventually arrived at.

We can all agree that MSPs’ offices make a tangible difference to constituents and provide a vital public service. I have found that all members strive to provide a decent pay settlement for staff, but the fact is that that frontier needs to increase in line with the cost of living. Given the unprecedented cost of living crisis that we face, will the SPCB meet the GMB’s Scottish Parliament staff branch as a matter of urgency to discuss its pay proposal in good faith and to agree an appropriate award for members’ staff?

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

I think that this touches on the subject matter of Pam Duncan-Glancy’s question, too, but I have to tell the member that the answer is no. The SPCB will not meet the trade unions, because it is not competent for us to do so. We are not the employer of MSP staff; MSPs themselves are the employers. Our responsibility is to set the framework within which salary increases can be agreed, but it is for individual members, either on their own or in concert with colleagues, to agree the level of increase.

Cross-party Groups (Access to Broadcasting Services)

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

2. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what discussions have taken place to consider providing cross-party groups with access to broadcasting services in committee rooms. (S6O-01605)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Our discussion of this matter is somewhat limited by the fact that the code of conduct for members specifies that broadcasting facilities cannot be used for CPGs. However, the SPCB recognises some of the benefits that have come from CPGs meeting virtually. Updated hybrid equipment is now available for meetings. Up to 20 rooms in the Parliament can facilitate meetings in that way, and the equipment can be operated without the broadcasting team. However, they would be happy to demonstrate the self-operated facilities, with drop-in sessions planned for next month.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I declare an interest as co-convener of the cancer and chronic pain CPGs. A high number of incredibly ill or disabled people would like to attend meetings of both groups, but as we have moved back to holding in-person meetings, the numbers have reduced. Could we look into having a pilot project in which CPGs could, in future, use the broadcasting facilities in committee rooms to broadcast on the Parliament channel?

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The member will be disappointed to hear this, but it is not possible to facilitate the type of meeting that he has suggested. The members’ code of conduct limits the use of facilities, and there are practical issues to take into account such as limited resources and staff time.

However, the Teams technology that is being used can bring in thousands of participants, and it is possible to record meetings for upload at a future point. I appreciate that the member will be disappointed by that response, but he might be persuaded that the alternative that I am proposing will result in the same outcome. I am happy to discuss the matter with the member.

Party-political Activity on the Parliamentary Estate (Guidance)

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

3. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what guidance is available to MSPs regarding undertaking party-political activity on the parliamentary estate. (S6O-01608)

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

As the member will be aware, the code of conduct for members requires all members to abide by the SPCB’s policies. All policies direct that parliamentary resources are provided by the SPCB to support members to carry out their parliamentary duties and must not be used to any significant extent for any other purpose, including party-political purposes.

Parliamentary resources include office equipment and furniture; information technology and mail systems; meeting rooms; and expenses paid to support members in carrying out their parliamentary duties, whether they are met under the members’ expenses scheme, through financial assistance to non-Executive parties or directly by the SPCB.

The SPCB has various policies and guidance in place to advise members about appropriate activity on the parliamentary estate or when making use of parliamentary resources. That includes, for example, specific policies and guidance on the use of meeting rooms and photography on the Parliament estate. The SPCB appreciates that there can sometimes be a fine line between something that is parliamentary and something that is party political, and members must use their judgment accordingly.

When there is any doubt, members are encouraged to seek advice from the contact points provided in the appropriate policies before undertaking any such activity.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I reiterate what I said. We have eight questions on the

Business Bulletin

and, if we have answers as long as that to each question, there is no way that we will get to number 8.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

A Scottish

Conservatives event for Conservative councillors and Conservative group leaders was held in the members’ room on 8 November. Can the SPCB clarify whether political meetings and events are allowed to be held on the parliamentary estate?

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

It would not be appropriate for me to comment on any specific use of the parliamentary estate or resources at this point. If the member has any concerns about any such use of the parliamentary estate, he should follow due process and raise a complaint through the appropriate channels in order that that may be looked into and addressed.

Staff Cost Provision 2023-24 (Consultation with Trade Unions)

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

4. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether it will consult MSP staff trade unions before deciding on uprating the staff cost provision in the 2023-24 financial year. (S6O-01609)

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

In the interests of time, I refer Ms Duncan-Glancy to the answer that I gave in response to Mr Sweeney’s supplementary question.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

I thank the member for that referral back to a previous answer.

I am sure that I speak for all of us in the chamber when I say that our staff do an outstanding job, and I thank all of them—particularly my team—on the record. They all, too, face a cost of living crisis. The GMB branch and I recognise what the member said earlier about there being no formal relationship between the SPCB and MSP staff, but it is a fact that the staff cost provision allows for annual cost of living increases, and it is a basic principle of fair work that trade unions are involved in negotiations. Therefore, could the SPCB, as it plays a key role in this, find some way to engage in good faith with the unions, so that they can answer some of the questions that the SPCB might have?

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

T

he SPCB has had detailed and robust discussions on all the issues affecting the indices that will be applied when we uprate salaries in the next annual budget. However, it is the case that we are not an employer, and the scheme—which was agreed by Parliament—is quite clear that it places a responsibility on us to uprate the scheme annually, using a relevant index, as part of the budget setting. I repeat that individual MSP employers can, of course, consult trade unions and agree any cost of living award that they wish, as long as it is affordable within the overall capped provision. In fact, the SPCB is aware that many members made awards that exceeded the inflationary uplift in the scheme itself.

I might anticipate a question that is coming later, as it is relevant to Ms Duncan-Glancy’s question, by saying that the SPCB is currently considering what financial assistance can be provided to members’ staff. That includes the sort of one-off non-consolidated payments that other employers, including His Majesty the King, have made recently. We have had a constructive discussion about that today, and we will communicate our intended course of action as soon as possible after our discussions conclude.

Room for Contemplation (Access during Recess)

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

5. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether provision can be made for access to the room for contemplation for evening events held during recess. (S6O-01572)

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

The room for contemplation is accessible to building passholders at all times of the day, including during recess. Visitors who wish to use the room must be accompanied by a passholder.

The corporate body policy is that, should an attendee at an evening member-sponsored event request to use the room for contemplation, an event assistant will support that request and escort the person to and from the room. During recess, member-sponsored events are paused.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

When I hosted an event for faith groups during the October recess, attendees were forced to pray in the reception, as they were not able to access the room for contemplation. I understand that parliamentary opening hours are curtailed during recess but, as long as members are able to host events that extend outside those hours, surely it makes sense to allow members and their guests to have access to the room for the duration of such an event.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

For meetings that members have arranged to be held in the Holyrood campus—it sounds as though the meeting that Foysol Choudhury mentioned was one such meeting—the member or their representative passholder will be responsible for supporting the meeting attendees with access to the room for contemplation. There should be access to the room for contemplation as long as people are accompanied by a passholder.

Recycling

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

6. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether MSPs and their staff are putting their rubbish in the correct bins for recycling or otherwise. (S6O-01607)

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I thank John Mason for his rubbish question. [

Laughter

.] Apologies—I thank him for his question on rubbish. I also thank my colleagues for their efforts in segregating materials for recycling. We achieved a recycling rate of 81 per cent in 2021-22, which is a significantly higher rate than most public sector bodies achieved.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

I think that many of us want to recycle, but there is some confusion. For example, where does paper stop and cardboard begin? Can plastic bags be recycled with plastic bottles? I am holding in my hand a Tetra Pak product that was bought in the canteen. It says that it should be recycled, but I do not know where to put it.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I remind members that props of any kind are not welcome in the chamber.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

I am trying to find out where the answer to that question is. Members could just fill in time a little bit.

All recycling bins are colour coded, and they include the text and symbols recommended by Zero Waste Scotland, which is the not-for-profit environmental organisation funded by the Scottish Government and the European regional development fund. John Mason can therefore check on its website. Those standard colours, symbols and texts should be consistent across Scotland, and they help individuals, including Mr Mason, to recognise the same bin and waste streams at home, work, and out and about. There is also a guide to our recycling bin system on our intranet site, and there are regular communications about waste and recycling.

I am sure that Mr Mason will improve.

Home Working Allowance (Withdrawal)

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body how it will support any members’ staff who are dealing with added financial challenges and pressures after the home working allowance payment was discontinued in October. (S6O-01611)

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

At the risk of recycling an answer, the corporate body is committed to supporting members’ staff with the cost of living and is actively considering a suite of measures to support staff. The corporate body believes that that is the right thing to do at this very difficult time, and it recognises that that is an urgent priority for staff.

I remind

members that, should they require their staff to work from home, they may qualify for tax relief and that, in such circumstances, members should advise their staff to contact HM Revenue and Customs directly.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of GMB Scotland.

GMB Scotland has highlighted that all members of staff, particularly those who work from home, face significant additional pressures this winter, with increasing energy bills. Staff members have received a blog with advice on saving money, such as changing to LED light bulbs, but they need direct financial help during the cost of living crisis.

I welcome that that is being considered by the SPCB. The home working allowance was welcome, but we need to go further. Can I ask that any cost of living support payment goes above and beyond the previous home working allowance so that it can meet the scale of the challenge that people are facing with the cost of living crisis?

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

As I said in response to an earlier question, we are considering that very issue at the moment. We have had constructive discussions over a number of meetings of the corporate body and I hope that we will soon be able to communicate the outcome of those discussions to members. In addition to those arrangements, the corporate body is considering other measures, which include independent financial advice, financial wellbeing workshops, and providing links to organisations that can provide further advice and support.

However, the particular item to which Mr Bibby refers should be communicated to members in early course.

Safety (MSPs)

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

8. To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what steps it is taking to improve safety for MSPs both within the Parliament and outwith the parliamentary estate. (S6O-01606)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

We take members’ personal safety very seriously and, with the advice of our specialist security partners, the corporate body has introduced a range of measures to support members both when working at Parliament and when away from the main estate. We keep safety measures under review to ensure that they remain proportionate to the risks that members face.

Martin Whitfield (Labour, South Scotland)

Recently, security people undertook research, or outreach, with MSPs. Is the SPCB satisfied with the response and uptake following that?

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The numbers have been quite positive—

100 members have taken the opportunity to have a survey of their constituency or regional offices and, so far, 38 members have had home security surveys.

I assure members that sufficient funding is available for each member should they wish to pursue a security survey and I would encourage members to apply to the corporate body. I am grateful to the member for helping us to promote the scheme and to make sure that members know that it is available and it is fully funded.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

Today was a good example of such security issues. I sat barely a few feet away from today’s protest during First Minister’s question time. I am acutely aware that we need to be an open Parliament and allow public access as much as possible and although I appreciate that physical security checks are in place for visitors, what more can be done by the Parliament to ensure the physical protection of members, especially those who are sitting at the back of the chamber near the public gallery, who are particularly vulnerable to protests? Thankfully, in this case, it was just a verbal protest, not a physical one.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

As the member recognises, the corporate body is keen for the Parliament to remain open and accessible. It is always about achieving the appropriate balance. We obviously had an incident in Parliament today that we will reflect on, and I thank the member for raising the issue.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer—I forgot to mention earlier that, as listed in the register of members’ interests, I am a member of GMB Scotland.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Ms Duncan-Glancy.

That concludes SPCB question time and there will be a brief pause before we move on to the next item of business to allow front-bench teams to change position.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is

portfolio question time, and the portfolio is net zero, energy and transport. If a member wishes to request a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question or enter “RTS” in the chat function during the relevant question. Again, in order to get in as many members as possible, I would appreciate succinct questions, with answers to match.

Renewables Revolution (Benefits to Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley)

Willie Coffey (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley)

1. To ask the Scottish Government how its proposed renewables revolution will benefit the Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley constituency. (S6O-01589)

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

We are committed to working across society to deliver lasting action that secures a just transition to climate resilience and net zero for Scotland. That includes ensuring that communities derive maximum benefit from the renewables revolution. For example,

our ScotWind programme will deliver initial lease options agreement revenues of over £750 million for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

In the Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley constituency, more than £7 million in investment has been provided through the Ayrshire growth deal, with £1.2 million allocated for the support of the installation of low-carbon heating and electricity generation. That has enabled more than 100 homes to access low-carbon heating.

Willie Coffey (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley)

The renewables revolution is certainly under way and Scotland has well and truly hit the jackpot. Local people in my constituency support the programme, welcoming the impact on the climate, but look to see what the direct benefits for them will be beyond the obvious. Can the minister offer a glimpse of what a net zero future will look like, in terms of offering more local jobs for local people, more community ownership, perhaps a share in energy companies’ profits and, ultimately, the prospect of energy bills falling as a result of Scotland’s energy bonanza?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Willie Coffey has raised issues that get right to the heart of the just transition to net zero. The just transition must deliver green jobs, and I was delighted to see the report that was produced by the University of Warwick, the University of Strathclyde and Skills Development Scotland that says that there are up to 100,000 green jobs in Scotland. That shows that there has been good progress towards one of the key aims of the just transition.

Willie Coffey is correct that we must use our abundance of energy resources to deliver cheaper electricity and energy for the people of Scotland and its business community. Over the coming years, we have the potential to produce several times the amount of energy that we need as a country, which should bring the cost of energy and electricity down.

I assure the member that community ownership and the other issues that he has raised will be addressed in the forthcoming refresh of the energy strategy, which will go out for consultation. As part of that consultation, the first just transition plan for energy will be published, and it will address the issues that Willie Coffey has raised. In the meantime, we have seen that onshore wind developments have had significant benefits for communities around Scotland. However, there is a lot more to be achieved.

Climate Change (Role of Hydrogen)

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the Friends of the Earth Scotland report, “Hydrogen’s Role in Scotland’s Climate Journey”. (S6O-01590)

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

The Scottish Government is fully committed to growing our hydrogen sector. Our support for hydrogen is underpinned by a broad evidence base, including our hydrogen policy statement and the draft hydrogen action plan, as well as findings from the Climate Change Committee and reports from the International Energy Agency. Our position that the growth of renewables and hydrogen is complementary is shared by key stakeholders such as Scottish Renewables. A systems approach combining increased renewable electricity, energy efficiency and hydrogen will be required to deliver net zero. I will publish our final hydrogen action plan before the end of the year.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

The Friends of the Earth report is somewhat sceptical about hydrogen, but does the minister agree that green hydrogen is by far the best type of hydrogen and that there are specific uses, such as longer-term storage, industrial uses and, perhaps, remote rail lines, where hydrogen could be best?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Green hydrogen, taking advantage of Scotland’s massive renewable energy resources, will be a key plank of our hydrogen strategy going forward. However, our priority is to get as much renewable hydrogen into the energy system as quickly as possible, while also supporting the establishment of low-carbon hydrogen production at scale in the 2020s. That will also be linked to carbon capture and storage.

As a Government, we are convinced that hydrogen, alongside renewable electricity, will play an extremely important part in our energy system going forward. Electrification will do the heavy lifting in our march towards net zero, but there are parts of our economy and energy system that are very difficult to electrify. Hydrogen, in all its forms, could provide a solution for some sectors such as heavy-duty on and off-road transport, shipping, aviation, industrial high-temperature heat

and, potentially, some parts of our domestic heating systems. Clearly, we are on a new journey, and we will look at the variety of types of renewable energy that are out there.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

At First Minister’s question time, the First Minister said in reply to my colleague Martin Whitfield that the Scottish Government would focus on the growth of both hydrogen and green hydrogen as part of Scotland’s renewable energy mix. Given that the Friends of the Earth Scotland report highlights problems with hydrogen and green hydrogen, can the Scottish Government assure me that its focus will be on the forms of energy that we can rely on for our transition to net zero?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Our policy is based on exploiting the massive opportunities that hydrogen offers, not only from its use in Scotland but from its export to other countries, particularly those on the European continent, given the energy crisis and the expected increase in demand there for hydrogen, which could be produced in Scotland. Our policy is to support green hydrogen—renewable and low-carbon hydrogen—which will be necessary, as I said in my remarks to John Mason, for certain industries in Scotland. That will offer great opportunities.

We must learn as we go. Green hydrogen, in particular, is a huge opportunity for Scotland .

A9 Dualling (Procurement)

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

3. To ask the Scottish Government when it expects the sections of the A9 trunk road from Perth to Inverness, on which made orders have been confirmed to create dual carriageways, to progress to procurement. (S6O-01591)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The A9 dualling programme comprises 11 projects. Of those, two projects are now open to use, one project is in procurement and seven of the remaining eight projects have had ministerial decisions confirmed to complete statutory processes. Only one project has not yet commenced statutory processes.

Work is on-going to determine the most suitable procurement options for the remaining sections, which involves consideration of issues such as how the works can be delivered most efficiently by the industry while minimising disruption to road users. I will update the Parliament on the outcomes of that work when it is complete.

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the minister for her response, and I welcome the progress that has already been made on the A9 dualling. However, as the minister is well aware, in the course of this year, there have already been no fewer than 12 fatalities on the single-carriageway sections of the A9 between Perth and Inverness. Those tragedies make the case far more eloquently than I could for why the dualling programme must be completed.

There is now a large number of sections in which the legal processes have been completed; therefore, the only delay to moving to procurement is a decision from the Government, and the communities along the route and the people who use the road want to know when the programme will proceed. Will the minister give us an update on when those vital works will commence and when they will be completed?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank Murdo Fraser for his question and for his time yesterday, when we met, along with a group of cross-party MSPs, following the debate that was held a couple of weeks ago on the short-term urgent measures that I intend to introduce to enhance road safety on the A9.

Murdo Fraser raises a number of questions. It is worth recognising that we have already invested approximately £431 million to date, including on the delivery of the dual stretches between Kincraig and Dalraddy and between Luncarty and Pass of Birnam, which opened in September 2017 and August 2021, respectively.

Murdo Fraser will understand that there is now urgent and important work on-going to look at the procurement options for the remaining sections of the A9, as I alluded to in my response to his first question. That is a complex exercise that considers a number of factors, including how the project can be delivered most efficiently by the industry. I will be happy to update him and the Parliament as soon as I have had that advice from Transport Scotland.

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

I thank the minister for her considerable attention to this matter. There are, indeed, four sections of the road that are now ready to go to procurement: the Tay crossing, Pitlochry, Dalnaspidal and Dalwhinnie. Together, those four sections amount to 35km in length. It would be a massive proof positive of the Scottish Government’s clear commitment to delivering our dualling pledge if those sections now went to procurement. I understand that there might be capacity issues in the industry. What stage of preparation is Transport Scotland now at in considering how to progress the four sections to dualling and whether to do

the work on the sections concurrently instead of consecutively?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I thank Fergus Ewing for his question and note his considerable constituency interest in the matter.

I think that it would be helpful to summarise the sections of the route that remain outstanding. The Pass of Birnam to Tay crossing project has been the subject of a co-creative process. The project is progressing towards an announcement of the preferred route—that is expected in the coming months.

The made orders for the Tay crossing to Ballinluig project have been published. The project will complete the final stage of its statutory processes when the land has been vested. The Pitlochry to Killiecrankie section is at the same stage as that.

The Killiecrankie to Glen Garry project has received a ministerial decision confirming that orders should be made. The made orders for the Glen Garry to Dalwhinnie project have been published. The Dalwhinnie to Crubenmore section is at the same stage as that. The Crubenmore to Kincraig project has received a ministerial decision confirming that orders should be made, which is the same for the Dalraddy to Slochd project. It is only the Tomatin to Moy section that is in procurement at the present time.

I have not had advice on the potential to run the outstanding works concurrently. My initial observation on that suggestion might be about the disruption that it would invariably cause Fergus Ewing’s constituents and other people if we were to plan all those sections at the same time. However, I will ask my Transport Scotland officials for advice on that, and I will be happy to discuss that and other details with him should he wish to do so.

Bus Driver Shortages (Support for Bus Companies)

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what support it is providing to bus companies that are currently facing driver shortages. (S6O-01592)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

There is currently a shortage of drivers for buses across the United Kingdom, which impacts on Scotland’s economy and communities. To help to address that and other challenges, I have convened a bus task force, in partnership with the industry and local authority stakeholders. At our first meeting on 29 September, we agreed a range of workstreams, including the establishment of a sub-group to focus on how we can address driver shortages.

I look forward to chairing the next meeting of the task force next month.

Marie McNair (Scottish National Party, Clydebank and Milngavie)

The driver shortage is having an impact on bus companies’ ability to provide a full service and reliable timetables in parts of my constituency. I have been advised by one bus company that the shortage is, in part, due to recruitment issues that are related to Brexit and Covid-19. Is the minister aware that those two issues are having an impact? Can she offer any guidance on what is available to companies to help them to mitigate the issue?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I am, of course, aware that those two concurrent issues are having a real impact on delivery of services. Obviously, the pandemic is having an on-going impact, and we are working hard to recover from it. However, it is notable that bus patronage is down to around 60 per cent of what it was prior to the pandemic, which is having a detrimental impact on our net zero aspirations in relation to climate change.

Brexit is also a factor that is having an impact in terms of driver shortages. Of course, I have made representations to the UK Government on that matter, in relation to the shortage occupation list. At the present time, the powers over a number of factors remain reserved. I am keen for the UK Government to take part in that wider task force. I asked the previous relevant UK minister to join the group in September and have asked the new minister to join the group when it meets in December. I very much hope that that minister will be able to do so.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I have requests to ask supplementary questions from three members. I am inclined to take all three of them, if I can have brief supplementary questions and answers.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

This month, there have been 85 cancellations of Stagecoach services in North East Fife alone, and I am sure that there have been even more since I did the tally. There is no doubt that Brexit is a factor, but the Scottish Government has a huge responsibility, because we have been leading up to that point for some time. I am puzzled as to why it is only now that the task force has been established. What accelerated measures will the minister introduce to make sure that we can get drivers back on the buses, so that we can ride those services?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The task force has not just been established—I met larger and smaller operators from the sector over the summer. From the outset, it is important to say that they have very different needs.

The second point to make is that we have provided significant funding to the sector throughout the pandemic—for example, we have provided up to £210 million of emergency funding to support the bus sector throughout the pandemic. At the start of the summer, I chose to extend the network support grant plus, which ran from June until October. That additional funding has been important.

I have committed to working with the sector to look at what additional funding the Scottish Government might be able to provide, but I will reflect to Mr Rennie some of the challenges that we in the Scottish Government face at the moment. We have a largely fixed budget, which has implications for other economic pressures across various portfolio areas for which I do not have responsibility.

However, the situation is deeply concerning. Again, I reflect to Mr Rennie that one of the real challenges is Brexit. Although, of course, Scotland did not vote for Brexit, we are having to try to manage some of its challenges within the confines of devolution. There is probably a divergence of views between Mr Rennie and me on that subject, but it is important to recognise that.

I am happy to continue to work with the sector on the issue, through the task force. Specifically, it has been tasked with looking at driver shortages; I look forward to hearing the reports from that work when I meet the task force in two weeks.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Due to driver shortages, bus services across Scotland have been cancelled at short notice. Has the Government compiled or received information on the number of cancellations in recent months, in order to understand the scale of the problem across the country? If not, will the minister commit to doing so and to publishing that information, so that we know how driver shortages are affecting different areas and companies across the country?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Obviously, we run a deregulated bus market so, as I understand it, we do not gather that data at national level because we have a number of commercial bus operators. However, I will ask my officials in Transport Scotland whether it is possible to gather that data, as Mr Bibby has asked, and to publish it. It is a reasonable request, but there are challenges in doing that because some of the decisions are being made on a commercial basis by private operators that might not want to share the information with the Government. However, I will ask the question.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Next week, I will host an online summit with my constituents to discuss the future of bus services, and I would be happy to share the results of that with the minister.

Does the minister believe that the regulator currently has enough powers to hold the bus companies to account over minimum standards of services?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I understand people’s frustration about the current situation, which we have heard about from a number of members today. As I mentioned, I am pressing Westminster colleagues to look at what more could be done at UK level—in particular, on the shortage occupation list—in relation to driver shortages.

Under the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, bus services need to be registered with the office of the traffic commissioner for Scotland. If the commissioner considers that an operator is failing to run a service in line with its registration, she can take action against it, including by imposing fines or terms and conditions on its public service vehicle licence, or by rejecting future service applications. I would be more than happy to hear from the member about his constituents’ views on the matter, following the meeting that he will convene next week.

A96 Appraisal (Progress)

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

5. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on progress on the A96 appraisal. (S6O-01593)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As I said when I updated Parliament during the recent debate on essential road improvements, we are undertaking a transparent evidence-based review of the A96 corridor. The recent public consultation received nearly 5,000 responses, which generated more than 11,000 suggestions and potential opportunities for the route. Rightly, it has taken more time than was originally planned to look at and appraise all those options, but a report on the public consultation and the initial appraisal will be published by the end of the year.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I thank the minister for her answer and for her time this week in meeting me with her officials.

I am keen to know how the review report that will be published by the end of the year will show the strength of public feeling about the options. As the minister knows, a great deal of work was done on the part of the route that would bypass Inverurie as part of the A96 dualling plans. That work involved a lot of public engagement and resulted in a decision to progress with the orange route, west of Inverurie, which was welcomed by my constituents. What is the status of that route, given the pause in its development to allow the A96 review to take place, and how might the extensive work on that section of the route be progressed in the light of the review, which I appreciate will not be published for a few weeks.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I welcomed the opportunity to meet Gillian Martin yesterday, and I recognise and understand her strong constituency interest in the route. It is worth saying that the substantial consultation that she mentioned and the development work on the dualling programme that was undertaken previously will not go to waste. They are proving to be extremely important in informing our understanding of the route and in supporting the evidence-based review, which—as I mentioned—will end at the end of this year, in a few weeks.

On the member’s point about the strength of public feeling, I assure her that the unprecedented level of responses that were received during the consultation clearly shows the importance of the A96 corridor to the people who live and work in the north and north-east of Scotland. That feedback will be captured in the public consultation report, which will be published in the coming weeks.

I understand the member’s constituency interest and the importance of the matter to her constituents. Therefore, I have asked the review’s project team to meet her in her constituency to disseminate some of the review results when they are published.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The consultation closed in June and, as we have heard, there were nearly 5,000 responses. If it is being done properly, most of the responses will be from people in the north-east and most, if not all, will say, “Dual it.” We surely owe that to the 13 people who have been killed and the 180 who have been injured in just the past three years.

If the Government does not follow through on more than a decade of promises, people across the north-east will regard that as an outright abdication of responsibility. After the consultation is published, showing that the people of the north-east demand it, how quickly will dualling of the entire A96 commence?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

As Liam Kerr knows, I recognise his constituency interest in the matter; he regularly asks questions on the topic.

It is important that we get it right.

I do not want to prejudge the outcome of the appraisal, which will be published in the coming weeks, but the current plan is to fully dual the route. However, we have committed to conducting a transparent evidence-based review, so I would, as I offered to Ms Martin, be more than happy to arrange for the consultants who undertook the review to meet Mr Kerr to disseminate the results.

It is hugely important that we get this right for local communities. We had a vast response on the options that were put to the local community—we have more than 11,000 suggested options to consider and they have taken the consultants some time to work through. However, I recognise Mr Kerr’s strength of feeling on the matter, so I am more than happy to ensure that the consultants engage with him. When we have the data, I will come back to Parliament with a timeline and an update on the next steps in relation to dualling the A96.

Decarbonisation of Heavy Goods Vehicles (Delivery Firms)

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government how it is assisting delivery firms to decarbonise heavy goods vehicles. (S6O-01594)

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I convened the zero-emission truck task force and chaired its inaugural meeting back in May this year. The group brings together leaders from road haulage, logistics, manufacturing, the energy sector, commercial finance, Government and unions, with the sole aim of putting the sector on a pathway to net zero.

W

e are providing £28 million of innovation funding to help companies that are involved in the development and manufacture of zero-emission heavy vehicles. That is over and above the interest-free loans that we are offering to companies to purchase electric vans.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I am aware of the work of the zero-emission truck task force, and I look forward to seeing action as a result of it.

I have been speaking to representatives of the Scottish Wholesale Association, which fell just short of the minimum entry criteria for the Department for Transport’s recently closed zero-emission road freight demonstrator programme. That could have kick started the deployment of long-haul zero-emission hydrogen lorries in Scotland. Would the minister consider investing in the consortium’s heavy goods vehicle trial proposal, which could help decarbonise Scotland’s food and drink supply chain?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Mr Simpson certainly makes a worthwhile recommendation. I do not have the detail of that proposal to hand but, if Mr Simpson shares it with my private office, I would be more than happy to consider it. Our forecasts indicate that demand for hydrogen from HGVs could reach up to 1,600GW hours a year by 2035 if an affordable supply is in place. It is really important that we consider a range of opportunities, including hydrogen, for decarbonising heavy goods vehicles in particular, as well as vans.

There is also an ask here in relation to the modal shift from road to rail. Rail will have a key role to play

in this regard, which is why the Government provides support through the freight facilities grant—unlike in some other parts of the United Kingdom.