Scottish Parliament, 1 November 2022

80 contributions from 30 members. The official report.

Time for Reflection

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is time for reflection. Our time for reflection leader is Sophie Reid, member and chair of the Scottish Youth Parliament.

Sophie Reid (Scottish Youth Parliament)

Thank you for inviting me to speak to Parliament. I was elected to the Scottish Youth Parliament, as one of the MSYPs for Girlguiding Scotland, when I was 14 years old. I am now 19 years old and, in those five years, everything has changed.

From the Covid pandemic to the war in Ukraine and the cost of living crisis, the world has become a much more hostile and scary place. At times like these, it can be even more difficult for those of us outwith the political system, who are not members of the Scottish Parliament, to have our voice heard. We know all too well that, often, the views of those who most need to be heard are not listened to or are crowded out by the more powerful, louder voices.

It was a daunting and intimidating experience for me, as a newly elected MSYP at 14, to step into political spaces. Even now, at 19, as a young woman in political spaces that are often occupied by older men, I still sometimes feel alienated or ignored when those spaces do not have young people at their centre and do not demonstrate that everyone’s voice counts.

Within the Scottish Youth Parliament, I was able to find my voice and build my confidence in an environment that nurtured and supported me to do so. That is why I am so proud of our youth-led structure at SYP and to be in this position as chair. Now I am able to work with and support other young people like me, who would otherwise find it difficult to have their voice heard.

That is the request that I now want to make of each of you. The challenges facing us all, and all of you in your work in this building, are immense, but, if we work together, collaborate and engage meaningfully, they are not insurmountable. In your role as MSPs, I urge you to make every effort to listen to and hear the quieter voices and to nurture them, cherish them and empower them. I urge you to listen to the voices of young carers, young people with disabilities, young people from ethnic minorities, and children and young people who are care experienced. Listen to the quieter voices in the room, like mine at 14. If you listen carefully, the things that you hear may surprise you.

Topical Question Time

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is topical question time. If a member wishes to raise a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button, or indicate so in the chat function by entering the letters “RTS”, during the relevant question.

Cladding Review (Findings)

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to address the reported findings of an independent review of the cladding remediation programme that “successful delivery of the project is in doubt with major risks or issues apparent”. (S6T-00933)

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

I reassure home owners that the programme is not in any way at risk. It is standard Government practice to carry out independent scrutiny of large programmes to ensure that they deliver public value and to help them to succeed. We will continue to do that, and I fully expect that home owners will find that the programme is making progress. The review recognised that cladding issues cannot be dealt with quickly, and it provided eight recommendations, which we accepted and have actioned.

As I announced in a statement in May, our single building assessment programme has changed since the review was carried out and has been expanded from 27 to more than 100 buildings. It is a complex programme that is moving forward, with assessments being completed and discussions on remediation under way.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

The idea that the Government has been delivering on the cladding remediation programme is farcical. Reports confirm that home owners have been given nothing more than the runaround. Risks are unmanaged, there is no plan, the damning verdict is that whatever comes next is unclear, and successful delivery is in doubt.

If there was no plan in July, that calls into question whether the statement that the cabinet secretary made in May was even accurate. All summer, I was contacted by families who were worried sick that they were living in unsafe homes that they cannot escape, because they cannot sell or remortgage. In some cases, they cannot even secure insurance.

I say to the cabinet secretary that barely a building has been made safe. The documents point out that just one of the 26 buildings in the pilot scheme is expected to be given the green light for selling or remortgaging. Does she agree that it is unacceptable that the families who contacted me over the summer have been left in absolute despair? They need to hear an update urgently.

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

It is important that, first of all, we recognise the concerns of home owners and families. I did that when I made my statement back in May.

We must also recognise that the process is a complex one—it is not easy. The owners of each building that is part of the programme are being kept updated by their factors. If there are issues with communications for particular buildings, I will be happy to speak to Mark Griffin about those. If we can do more to ensure that such communications happen, we will do so. A lot of discussions and meetings are taking place, and progress is being made. It is important that that is communicated. The grant-based model gives factors important roles to play, one of which is communication. When we move to a national roll-out, responsibility for communication will fall to the Scottish Government, and we want to ensure that it will be as good as it can be. If members such as Mark Griffin have suggestions about the best way to do that, of course we will listen to them.

The reports that we have received are undergoing technical review. If any issue that needs to be addressed immediately comes to light, of course that will happen. The assessments themselves require complex specialist interventions from fire engineers, who ensure that surveys are carried out to the highest technical standards, which takes time. Such skills are rare—there are not a lot of fire engineers about—so we have had to work hard to get people with the skills that we require. Of course, we will then take action based on the recommendations made by the independent fire safety professionals.

I agree with Mark Griffin that communication is important. If we need to do more in that space, we will. However, providing assurance to home owners is also important. We will do everything that we can to ensure that they are able to move forward with their lives as soon as possible.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

I will aim to feed back to the cabinet secretary the cases that I have been receiving. It has been difficult to do so because those who have contacted me are generally not my constituents; they are primarily home owners in the Edinburgh area. However, I will forward their concerns.

I also note that, in her statement in May, the cabinet secretary promised a cross-party briefing, which, had it been forthcoming, could have provided a platform for us to share constituents’ concerns.

The documents that have been released also confirm that the cabinet secretary herself set a deadline of September for establishing an accord with house builders. We are now into November. Where is that agreement with developers?

With Julie James, the minister who is responsible for this area in the Welsh Government, the cabinet secretary wrote to the house-building sector, saying that they saw

“no reason why the Accord and Pact cannot be agreed”

over the summer, after the change in United Kingdom Government roles. Last month, the Welsh Government confirmed that it had signed up Persimmon, Taylor Wimpey, Barratt and other builders to its pact. What can the Scottish Government say about the developers that it has signed up to its accord? What contribution will they make towards remediation? For the sake of home owners, another update to Parliament by means of a statement from the cabinet secretary would definitely be helpful.

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

I will take those points in order. The accord is a critical part of the process. It is due to be signed in the coming weeks. We have taken time to get as many developers on board as we can. I thank Homes for Scotland and the developers that have come to the table for agreeing to step up and do the right thing for home owners. Of course, that represents their chance to put things right and reassure home owners that their homes will be fixed.

I will be happy to give a statement to Parliament. I wanted to do so once we had made sufficient progress on bringing the accord to a satisfactory conclusion. However, I am happy to come to Parliament, and I will try to do that before the end of the year if I can. I am also happy to provide a cross-party briefing to bring members up to speed with all those things. We will organise that as quickly as we can.

Miles Briggs (Conservative, Lothian)

I agree with Mark Griffin that there is growing concern about the lack of leadership from the cabinet secretary and the Scottish Government. Our constituents expect action. I am concerned by the reports that I am getting that people living in those buildings are being told that they, rather than the developer, will have to pay. The cabinet secretary needs to be clear about how the programme will be properly resourced and funded. The accord was meant to be delivered in September, but it is now November. Can she guarantee that that work is taking place and that people living in relevant developments are being communicated with, given that they are having conversations with factors in which they are being told that they will have to foot the bill?

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

Let me remind Miles Briggs and other members of what I said in my statement. The reason for the accord is that we want those developers that are still in existence and that have a relationship with a building to step up, take responsibility and do the right thing for home owners. We will prioritise Scottish Government spend on buildings that are essentially orphaned buildings—that is, where either no developer can be associated with them or the developer no longer exists.

As I said, we have committed all the consequentials so far—£400 million—to the programme of work. The programme is appropriately resourced. We have expanded the programme and we are taking action to address those buildings in order of priority. So far, we have committed spend of almost £1 million on assessments. We have committed to funding assessments of all the affected buildings, so home owners will not need to pay for any of those assessments.

Many of the buildings will not require any remedial action, because they will be found to be safe. That is a good thing and will allow people to move on with their lives. Where remedial action is required, it is important that developers are held to account for those buildings for which they are responsible and that the Scottish Government uses its resources to step in for those buildings where a developer cannot be found.

I would be happy to go into far more detail by way of a cross-party briefing and a further statement, if members would find that helpful.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

Can the cabinet secretary advise us whether she plans to continue with gateway reviews to ensure that the programme is on track and that the complex technical expertise of external support is available to maintain and develop the programme?

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

Yes. We invite scrutiny of our programmes to ensure that we deliver public value to the highest of standards. Independent examination of any complex programme is standard Government practice. We welcome further independent examination of the cladding programme.

I commissioned the changes to the programme back in March, and I announced the new direction for the programme in May, having learned from the experience so far. The second gateway validated that decision, which was helpful.

Of the gateway recommendations, all are on track and four out of the eight have been completed.

Ferry 801 (Cost of Fitting Sensors)

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government how much it will cost to fit sensors for the liquefied natural gas system on ferry 801 as reported to the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. (S6T-00926)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Ferguson Marine informed the Scottish Government on 27 October of an issue relating to the

liquefied natural gas system for the MV Glen Sannox, which requires sensors to be procured. Due to issues with the global supply chain, ministers are advised that it may take something in the order of 36 weeks. Ministers are seeking urgent options for the next steps and expect all possible measures to be taken to deliver the vessel to serve islanders as soon as possible.

Officials will continue to engage with Ferguson Marine as it assesses the full impact of that development, including any financial implications, which Ferguson Marine will share with both the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament once that has been confirmed.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

My question was, how much will it cost? I am afraid that the Deputy First Minister has not answered that question. Perhaps he can try again.

I will put this to him, because we need to get to the bottom of what has happened.

Is it the case that the need for sensors has been known about for some time and someone simply forgot to place the order? If that is correct, has anyone fallen on their sword, or been got rid of, over that? If not, why not?

In addition, I still want to know the cost.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I gave Mr Simpson the best answer that I could on an issue that was raised with the Government just last Thursday, which was that any financial implications arising from that issue will be shared with both the Government and the Scottish Parliament once the cost has been confirmed by Ferguson Marine. That is the answer to the question of cost.

With regard to the issue that has arisen, the sensors are clearly necessary because, as I understand their function, they are part of the safety system around the LNG system that will operate on the Glen Sannox. The sensors had not been ordered. They have now been ordered, and the answer that I gave Mr Simpson is the substantive answer on the current estimate of the timescale for delivery of those sensors.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I am having to read between the lines. I assume that I am in fact correct in saying that the need for sensors was known about and they simply were not ordered. Again, can the Deputy First Minister confirm that?

He has not answered any of my questions yet. Perhaps he can tell us this: is he aware of any other issues with the building of the Glen Sannox? I have been told that there are on-going concerns about certain aspects of the build.

Can he also confirm whether the Government has recently been asked to provide any extra funding to help to keep the yard going?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I addressed the substantive points that Mr Simpson raised with me. He then asked me whether I had any further concerns or whether any issues had been drawn to my attention. As he will know, there is regular reporting on progress on the Glen Sannox, which is shared with the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee.

He went on to say that he has heard concerns about

“certain aspects of the build.”

With the greatest respect, I point out that that is not the most specific comment that has ever been put to me in the Parliament chamber. If he has specific concerns, he can, of course, raise them with me.

On the financial position in relation to the contract, Mr Simpson is aware of the details that have been shared with Parliament on the estimates by the management team at Ferguson’s regarding the financial implications of their assessment of the current work programme. Those estimates are being assessed by the Government, and further decisions will be taken in due course once that assessment has been completed.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I think that it is safe to say that the ferries network has become a bit of a favourite plaything of the Tories lately, but, as someone who represents a great many islanders, I know of the importance of these vessels and of the Scottish Government’s strong commitment to the provision of lifeline ferry services.

Can the Deputy First Minister tell me what progress is being made on the two vessels that were recently announced, and on enhancing resilience and capability on the whole Clyde and Hebrides network?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Since the Government was elected in May 2021, we have purchased and deployed the MV Loch Frisa; we have taken forward construction of vessels 801 and 802; we have commissioned two new vessels for the Islay routes; and we have progressed improvements to key ports and harbours. We have also taken further investment decisions.

The Minister for Transport has announced that Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd is progressing the procurement of a further two major vessels, which will deliver significantly increased capacity and reliability for the communities of the Western Isles and will improve resilience across the wider Clyde and Hebrides network. The procurement notice for those vessels was published on 27 October, with a deadline for submission of 6 December.

In addition to the on-going vessel investments, we will expand the tide and weather monitoring equipment that is currently in place at CMAL ports to other third-party ports, progress the Skye triangle and Islay route port works, and continue the work to improve the harbour infrastructure for Arran services.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I go back to the problem of the missing safety valves. It appears that there was a long-term need for those valves. When Tim Hair was appointed, at vast expense, he took on a new warehouse and carried out a complete stock check that confirmed that all the parts were there. Obviously, he missed those valves. Was Tim Hair an expensive, £2 million mistake?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Obviously, there has been parliamentary committee assessment of the steps that have been taken to deliver the ferries. Interim management was put in place to take forward the construction of the vessels. Under the leadership of David Tydeman, the yard is making good progress in advancing those vessels. The Government will work with Ferguson Marine to ensure that we complete the construction of vessels 801 and 802, to enable them to be deployed on the network to deliver the quality service that we expect for islanders.

Disorder (Dundee)

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to last night’s disorder in Dundee, including what action it is taking to prevent it continuing and support the community to aid clean-up efforts.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The disorder in Dundee last night was appalling and wholly unacceptable, and the impact on the community and, indeed, on emergency services will, of course, have been extremely distressing. I know that Police Scotland, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and local authorities have been making great efforts to prevent and respond effectively to any disorder in the run-up to bonfire night, including through the police’s operation moonbeam. We will engage further with those bodies and others to learn lessons and provide what further support we can.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I agree that the violent scenes in Dundee last night were appalling. Fireworks exploded near police officers and bricks were hurled at cars—even a school was attacked. I thank our emergency services for their bravery in responding and Police Scotland for today’s update, which confirms action to prevent further violence and an on-going investigation to catch those responsible. There must be consequences for those responsible.

Can the cabinet secretary provide detail on what resources are being provided to assist local police? What assurance do residents have that the perpetrators will be identified and punished?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I agree with much of what Maurice Golden has said. He will know that the operational matters, the investigations and what further action is taken are matters for the police, but I can provide the assurance that the investigations by the police are on-going. The police said to me in a meeting that I had with them earlier today that they find the Fireworks and Pyrotechnic Articles (Scotland) Act 2022, which was recently passed by the Parliament, to be hugely helpful. They are bolstered by that legislative backstop.

The police have also given me assurances around proposed plans for the coming weekend. I should say that those with first-hand experience of what happened last night were very grateful for the rapid deployment of additional police officers from elsewhere to bolster the efforts of local police officers. That will, of course, be factored into the police’s response over next weekend—in particular, 4 and 5 November. As Maurice Golden will be aware, that can traditionally be a time when there is additional activity, especially around fireworks.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

The cabinet secretary mentioned the new fireworks licensing scheme. Although that is not in place yet, one flaw in it is that those who have been convicted of antisocial behaviour do not need to disclose that when they apply for a fireworks licence. Will the cabinet secretary admit the Scottish National Party’s mistake on that and review the decision in the light of last night’s events?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The Parliament passed the Fireworks and Pyrotechnic Articles (Scotland) Act 2022, and I support its provisions.

I am not saying that he did this deliberately, but the member might have jumped over the fact that two vital provisions of that act are in force now: the ban on proxy buying for young children and, crucially, the aggravating factor, which means that, as of the passing of the act, if somebody is found guilty of a relevant offence, the court is required to take the aggravation into account in any disposal.

The member is right to say that other parts of the act have yet to come into force. As was said when the act was passed, they will be brought into force according to the timescales that we have. The important point is that, as the member did, we should support the police in their activities, support them in what they intend to do over the weekend and encourage others—I mentioned the SFRS, but I refer also to the local council—to do what they can to help the police so that Dundee does not have to experience again what we saw last night.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Three members seek to ask a supplementary question, and I intend to take each of them.

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

As the constituency member and a resident of the area concerned, I share my shock at the scenes last night, which were terrifying for people in the immediate area. We need to do everything that we can to ensure that the situation is not repeated.

I welcome the assurances from the cabinet secretary and Police Scotland about increased police presence in the area, and I put on record my thanks to police officers who attended the incident and were put in harm’s way due to the reckless actions of a small minority.

This morning, I reached out to Asda, which has agreed to withdraw fireworks from sale in all three of its Dundee stores, including in Kirkton. Will the cabinet secretary join me in calling on other retailers to follow suit and take voluntary action while we await the full commencement of the 2022 act?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

On the member’s reference to how frightening the incident was, I would mention that there was one injury last night. It was an injury to a police officer from shards of glass as a result of a brick being put through a police vehicle. That shows how serious the situation was, and the member is right to say how terrifying that can be for local residents.

I very much welcome the news that Asda has agreed to withdraw fireworks from sale in local stores and I commend Joe FitzPatrick for the activity that he has undertaken. Of course, the decision whether to withdraw legally available products is one for the supermarkets that are involved, but I say to the member that the police are pleased to see the action that Asda has taken.

A programme of work is under way to ensure that the rest of the 2022 act is implemented. We have engaged with the Scottish Retail Consortium—which is important, given the request that the member just made—as well as the Scottish Grocers Federation. The other aspects of the act—the licensing system, the restricted days of supply and use provisions and the firework control zones—are all being implemented by the Parliament.

The people who are most responsible—it is the ones who carried out the acts who are responsible—will now have to face the consequences before the courts. In doing so, they will face the fact that the courts will be obliged to take the aggravating factor into account. I hope that the courts will make the full force of the law come down on those who subjected local people to the experience that they had to go through last night.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

I share the sentiments expressed around the chamber. The events of yesterday evening were absolutely disgraceful. I welcome Police Scotland’s urgent pursuit of the perpetrators.

I say to the cabinet secretary that I spoke to Tesco this afternoon and it has now confirmed that it will cease sales of fireworks. Will the cabinet secretary join the calls from local politicians for all retailers to cease sales voluntarily to increase the confidence of local people that there will be no repetition of the situation this weekend? Dundee City Council has recently cut public displays, so will he give us any information on additional resources that can be brought from the fire service and police around Scotland to ensure that the public have confidence for this weekend?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I thank Michael Marra for the action that he has taken. It might develop into a pattern, as we have Asda and now Tesco ceasing sales. Perhaps we can go further. It is different for different retailers. Mr Marra will be aware that firework sales can be a large part of the income of some small retailers.

I welcome the action that Mr Marra and Joe FitzPatrick, as the local constituency member, have taken. I also point out the extent to which the police are pleased to see that action has been taken.

Michael Marra asks me for further information about the police plans for the weekend. I understand why he is interested and I am happy to speak to him with more information offline, but I do not want to arm others by putting that information into the public domain. That might not be useful. However, the resources that are available in Dundee this weekend are being augmented in the light of what happened last night. Beyond that, I am happy to have a further conversation with the member.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

The reality is that prosecution rates for fireworks offences is relatively low. Can the cabinet secretary offer some reassurance that the legislation that we passed recently will be enforced?

In addition, does he have any information about whether the fireworks that were used a weapons were sourced legally in the retail environment, which has just been discussed, illegally through the use of proxy purchasing for minors, or illicitly on the black market?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

On the member’s latter question, that is currently subject to police investigation.

I am happy to pass on any information that I am able to as it becomes available, in order to respond to the member’s specific points. The police have taken the correct action.

In relation to prosecutions and court disposals, as the member knows, I am not able to direct the police in their investigations and I cannot direct the courts as to how they deal with those investigations. The member’s comment will be in the

Official Report,

and I am sure that the agencies will look at that.

Ukraine (Humanitarian Response)

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a statement by Neil Gray on Scotland’s humanitarian response to the Ukraine crisis. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions.

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Like others around the world, we have been shocked by Russia’s continued illegal and unprovoked war in Ukraine. The conflict has devastated the lives of innocent Ukrainians and has forced nearly 11 million people to flee their homes.

We, as a nation, stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine. Our communities have welcomed thousands of people who are fleeing the war, Scottish families have opened their homes, and our local authorities and third sector partners are working tirelessly to provide people who are often traumatised with the safety and support that they need.

Unlike with the Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement scheme, we were not able to plan in advance, and homes had not already been found for people before they travelled. The displacement from Ukraine has been on a large scale and swift, causing a humanitarian crisis that Europe could not have predicted or planned for.

To provide a comparison, the Syrian scheme in Scotland saw the planned resettlement of 3,000 people over five years. Providing suitable accommodation and ensuring that those who arrive are able to access health, education and employability support have been a challenge on a scale that we have never experienced before, but our services have risen to that challenge.

Thanks in large part to our supersponsor scheme, Scotland has now offered a place of sanctuary to more than 21,000 people—a fifth of all United Kingdom arrivals and double our population share. That is beyond anything that we could have imagined eight months ago, when the war began. When we launched the supersponsor scheme, we committed to welcoming 3,000 people. We have exceeded that figure seven times over, showing that we did the right thing in offering that additional route to safety.

By pausing the scheme in July, we sought to ensure that we were able to continue to provide appropriate accommodation and support to those displaced people who had already arrived and to those we knew would arrive in the weeks ahead. At that time, I also committed to a review of the scheme. Led by the chief social policy adviser, Professor Linda Bauld, the review convened experts from across national and local government, academia and the third sector. It also included the lived experience of recently arrived Ukrainians. I am grateful to them all for their work.

Today, I have published the results of that review. With the principles of empowerment and sustainability in mind, the review has identified 16 interventions for our warm Scottish welcome, to improve our offer and to ensure that we are doing everything that we can to help those from Ukraine. There are seven criteria for reopening the supersponsor scheme. Those are supported by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers—SOLACE—and our third sector partners. I will briefly go through some of those interventions, focusing on accommodation, in particular. They include positive steps that offer the possibility of creating a real, lasting benefit.

For many people, moving from welcome accommodation to long-term accommodation is a key milestone. It might also be concerning, as it is a recognition that, for the time being, their homeland remains at war and they need to make a home in Scotland for longer than they might originally have envisaged. We want to be there to support them through this time. Our aim is to improve the performance of the scheme, to empower those who are arriving with clear advice and support, and to improve access to long-term housing options, thereby reducing dependency on short-term accommodation.

One intervention that we have already begun is increasing the supply of housing stock through the £50 million Ukraine longer-term resettlement fund. That new funding is in addition to the £5 million that was granted to North Lanarkshire, which has brought 200 properties into use and has started accommodating families. Through the new fund, we have already announced £486,000 in grant funding for North Ayrshire Council, and I am pleased to announce today that Aberdeen City Council has been awarded more than £6 million to bring about 500 void properties back into use, which will make more long-term accommodation available across the city. We are working with all local authorities to encourage and support more proposals.

The Scottish Government does not want anyone to stay in welcome accommodation longer than is necessary. It is clear that a settled home is a better longer-term outcome, so we will set a clearer expectation that stays will be short term, and we will highlight the support that is available to secure longer-term settled accommodation.

With many arrivals now in employment or in receipt of social security benefits, when appropriate, and in line with guests in private host homes and people living in other temporary rented accommodation, we will also consider asking for a contribution to temporary welcome accommodation for those who are still using it. That will help us to improve the prioritisation of limited temporary accommodation for those people who are most in need and those who have newly arrived.

Thousands of Scots were in a position to open their homes to Ukrainians by offering to be a private host. Local authority resettlement teams, supported by our national matching service, are working hard to match volunteer hosts and displaced people. More than 2,790 people have now been matched into private homes.

We want to place people with hosts quickly and safely, but we know that the most successful arrangements happen when the needs of both hosts and Ukrainians align, which is why matching is a two-way process and resettlement leads must listen and take account of the needs and preferences of Ukrainians. Many people might prefer to live in areas close to amenities and services, or close to pre-existing Ukrainian communities. In addition, volunteer hosts will have their own preferences and might not have space for larger families or complex group compositions. Matching takes time and considerable input, so we have increased resources to our local authorities to boost the process, and it might mean that, for some volunteer hosts, there is unfortunately not a match to be made.

There will also be many people who are interested in hosting who have not yet taken the first step, as they are not sure what is expected of them. Therefore, we will launch a Scotland-specific campaign to ask households across the nation to consider offering a place in their home to a Ukrainian. As part of that campaign, later this month, we will hold our first warm Scottish gathering, where Ukrainians and our local communities can come together. The event will showcase Scotland’s many vibrant towns, cities and villages, and it will help Ukrainians to make informed choices about where to live.

The review has had to take into account the fact that we are operating in the context of a cost of living crisis and cuts to our budget by the United Kingdom Government—a UK Government that has failed to act effectively enough in response to the cost of living crisis and that continues to fail in its response to arrivals from Ukraine.

As part of his budget statement, the Deputy First Minister explained that our response to the Ukraine crisis requires us to find about £200 million that had not been planned for. For many months, I have been writing jointly with my Welsh counterpart, Jane Hutt, to ask the UK Government to provide proper funding for Ukrainians who are arriving through the family route, and we have pressed for an increase to the £350 thank-you payments for hosts. None of that has progressed. Indeed, in the chaos of the past few months, the regular meetings that the Welsh and Scottish Governments had with Lord Harrington have been replaced with unanswered letters. I will continue to pursue meetings with the new UK ministers and I will meet my Welsh counterpart, who has just carried out a similar review of arrangements in Wales.

Scotland is facing the most severe economic upheaval in a generation, which is already impacting people, businesses, public services and the third sector. Difficult decisions are being taken that affect all of Scotland’s people, and our offer of support for people who have been displaced by the conflict in Ukraine is, unfortunately, not immune to that.

Let me turn to the reopening of the supersponsor scheme. As I said earlier, we have developed seven criteria that we will use to objectively decide whether the scheme can reopen. Reopening the scheme must be predicated on ensuring that we are able to honour our commitment to displaced people who are already in Scotland and those who are yet to travel. We must be assured that measures are in place to mitigate pressures on local councils and other services, which have been working tirelessly, and that funding is in place to meet the associated costs. Having considered the current position, I have concluded that we are unable to resume applications to the supersponsor scheme at this time.

That does not mean that there are no new arrivals from Ukraine. There are daily arrivals from Ukraine—around 100 a day—and there are more than 13,000 visa holders still to travel. The private sponsor route for Ukrainians remains open.

From the outset, I have been clear that Ukrainian resettlement is a national effort. Scotland’s response has demonstrated the kindness and generosity of the Scottish people. We can be successful only by working with local authorities, third sector partners, community groups, businesses and, of course, Ukrainians themselves. I therefore offer my deepest appreciation and thanks to all those who are providing help and support.

That includes the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain and the consul general, Yevhen Mankovskyi. I thank them for their support. The work of the association reinforces the importance of respecting and listening to displaced people from Ukraine so that we keep people and not process at the heart of our response. I have discussed with the association and the consul general the interventions that I have outlined, and I have explained the rationale behind them. They remain supportive of Scotland’s response, recognising the significant constraints that we face.

The review heard that support should be in place that empowers Ukrainians to make positive choices about their future, and that is our aim through the interventions that are set out in our paper on the issue. The Scottish Government remains clear that Ukrainians are welcome and that Scotland is their home for as long as they need it.

Slava Ukraini!

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move to the next item of business. Members who wish to ask a question should press their request-to-speak buttons now.

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I thank the minister for the advance sight of his statement and for the review of the supersponsor scheme by Professor Linda Bauld. I acknowledge that, earlier today, the minister dedicated time to answer questions from Opposition MSPs. I thank him for his regular engagement on the issue—it would be great if more of his colleagues could adopt a similar practice.

The Scottish Conservatives recognise the efforts that Governments across the United Kingdom have taken to ensure that as many Ukrainian refugees as possible can seek sanctuary from the horrors that continue to unfold in their homeland. We appreciate that there will be profound challenges ahead in ensuring that many of those people can settle in a permanent home and begin to build a new life here. However, despite the best intentions of the minister and his officials—I have never doubted their intentions for a moment—the supersponsor scheme remains mired in problems, which are exacerbated by the housing crisis that the Scottish National Party has made worse by its recent policy interventions in the area. Although a significant number of Ukrainians have arrived under the scheme, the reality for many of them is very challenging indeed.

I therefore ask the minister on what date he expects the supersponsor scheme to resume, given that it has now been paused for four months. I will also ask the same question that I asked on 8 September, which remains unanswered. Can the minister detail specifically the average time that it takes between arrival in Scotland and placement in permanent accommodation?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Donald Cameron for what was an almost entirely constructive approach to his question—almost. I will try to answer his questions in turn.

On the situation that we face, I do not recognise Donald Cameron’s portrayal of the supersponsor scheme. The scheme is, without doubt, incredibly successful. It has meant that, at the last count, almost 18,000 people have been able to get to Scotland and the UK without securing a private sponsor, and there are many more to come. I will therefore not take any criticism of the success of the supersponsor scheme, which has, without doubt, been incredibly successful.

The challenges with housing that we face in Scotland are not unique to Scotland—they are shared by our counterparts around Europe. I was recently in Poland and saw at first hand the experiences there. I was in Ireland a couple of weeks ago and saw for myself the challenges that are being faced there with regard to housing. Those challenges are very similar to, and in some cases much worse than, what we face. Therefore, it is unfair to characterise the housing challenges that we face as somehow being unique to Scotland.

On the resumption of the scheme, we now have objective criteria by which we will continually assess the issue. When those criteria are met, we will take a decision on resuming the scheme. I cannot put a timescale on that, for the obvious reason that it would otherwise no longer be an objective set of criteria.

The average time that it takes for people to be matched from temporary accommodation into permanent accommodation varies. Just as people vary and the circumstances that they arrive with vary, their needs and what they are looking for will be different. We are looking to match people as quickly as possible, and the process has sped up. That has been helped by the digital matching tool that we have as part of the national matching service. It has also been helped by the investments that we are making in longer-term housing opportunities such as those in North Ayrshire and North Lanarkshire and what is to come in Aberdeen. We will continue to make those investments to ensure that people are given the best opportunities possible post-arrival.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

I thank the minister both for advance notice of his statement and for the pre-meeting that he helpfully held with party spokespeople. I also refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests.

I agree that much has happened that we can collectively be proud of in our response to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, especially what has been done by those who have become hosts, the Ukrainian community and the staff and volunteers in local authorities and third sector organisations who have stepped up to support the 17,500 Ukrainians who have arrived to date.

I want to ask about accommodation. We have a long-standing housing crisis in Edinburgh and I want to ask the minister why the £50 million funding allows only repurposing of buildings. My understanding is that vacant blocks do not exist in the city and that we do not have the conversion opportunities that the fund admirably seeks to see.

I therefore ask about the proposal for modular housing. Can we have some clarity on that proposal, because my understanding is that modular homes are already available as an option for new build by both registered social landlords and councils for permanent housing? Is that what is being recommended, given the shortage not just in Edinburgh but in the Lothians and in neighbouring councils? Without a plan, if we are removing one of the meals a day that are currently free in the Victoria ship in Leith, does that not make it hard for people to be able to budget? Will there be cooking facilities in place?

The minister also talked about promoting employment, which I welcome. Can he say what is being done to monitor the employment of Ukrainians coming to Scotland and what is being done on a joined-up approach for employability support? I realise that the past few weeks have been somewhat chaotic at a UK level, but what is that joint Government work in terms of employability and issues such as access to driving licences?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Ms Boyack—

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

Finally—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Yes—finally, please.

Sarah Boyack (Labour, Lothian)

—can the minister say something about interventions 10 to 16 that were recommended by Linda Bauld? Should they not be immediate or short-term rather than into the future?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Sarah Boyack for her constructive approach both this afternoon and in the meetings that we have had, in which she has obviously been representing the City of Edinburgh Council and her constituents. I am genuinely grateful for the work that she has been doing alongside my Government officials and me.

Sarah Boyack is absolutely right in saying that we should be collectively proud of our response, because it is a collective effort. At the start of the scheme, when we first looked at providing a humanitarian response, I was determined that it was going to be a truly Scotland-wide effort, and I think that we are seeing that. There is one point to correct her on: we have seen over 21,000, rather than 17,000, arrivals, which is the supersponsor element alone. There have been privately matched homes for Ukraine arrivals that take us over 21,000 arrivals in total.

In terms of housing and the flexibility that Sarah Boyack is looking for in the fund, I am happy to hear proposals. I am always happy to hear proposals. I am looking for as many opportunities as possible to see as many properties as possible come forward for people—Ukrainians, clearly, but also to tackle the long-term legacy of domestic homelessness. As I said in the meeting earlier, if she or other colleagues in the chamber have ideas around potential properties that could be repurposed or refurbished, I am happy to consider those.

We are working with Palladium on modular housing. I set out in a previous statement that we are looking at what we can do with modular accommodation, and it is part of the review. I was taking quite a bit of evidence from my Irish counterparts about the work that they are doing on modular accommodation, again to provide longer-term sustainable housing. For us, it is about trying to find appropriate sites for those to go on and looking at how they can be properly utilised and how there can be a legacy from them.

On meals, we are obviously cognisant of the need to run the scheme in an equitable way, making it sustainable and encouraging people to go into longer-term accommodation. We are also trying to ensure that our offer to Ukrainians provides parity with our offer to people who are in temporary accommodation for other reasons, whether that is domestic homelessness or under other schemes. We are trying to do this in a sensitive way that recognises where meal provision is available. There will not be a withdrawal of catering facilities on ships; there might be a contribution to the meals that are available, which will still be getting made.

On employment and the chaos at the UK level that Sarah Boyack has narrated, we are working with the Department for Work and Pensions and Social Security Scotland to provide as wide a support package as possible for people in temporary accommodation on ships and hotels. She hits the nail on the head in saying that our ability to do that work is impacted by the current lack of a proper relationship with UK ministers, which we previously had. Lord Harrington was very open and helpful, but, since he departed, we have not had the same consistency of response, we have not met a minister and, as I have already pointed out, we have not had responses to correspondence, which is incredibly unhelpful and means that we cannot get through what we need to in order to support people here and in Ukraine. The two examples that I gave around the welcome payment and providing parity between schemes are issues that really need to be resolved.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we have around 10 minutes and 20 seconds left for back benchers, and 10 back benchers want to ask a question. Members can do the maths. We have spent almost half the time for this item on two questions from front benchers. I make a plea for succinct questions and answers; if we do not get that, we will simply have to drop questions from some back benchers.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

I remind members of an interest in that I have been a host to a Ukrainian refugee for the past 10 weeks under the homes for Ukraine scheme.

I have two questions to ask. The first is about the wording of one of the lines in the minister’s statement, which says that those in receipt of social security benefits or in employment will be asked, when appropriate, and in line with guests in private houses, for a contribution to their temporary welcome accommodation. Will the minister explain what that means? I understood that guests in private homes under the homes for Ukraine scheme were not required to make any kind of financial payment. If that is a change, it is a worrying change.

The second question is one on which I have pressed the minister before. Would his Government consider extending the discretionary travel arrangements on free bus passes to all refugees who are living in Scotland, whether they are from Ukraine, Afghanistan or Syria, so that they might better be able to take up offers of accommodation outside our metropolitan areas?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr Cole-Hamilton. I would not quite describe that as succinct.

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Alex Cole-Hamilton is correct in his characterisation: there is no contribution to be made in private homes. This is about welcome accommodation, on which we are looking to provide parity.

On the concessionary travel scheme, we continue to consider what we can do to provide the support that Alex Cole-Hamilton, Paul Sweeney, Bob Doris and Mark Ruskell have been calling on us to provide. It is a programme of government commitment for us to work with the third sector and local authorities to consider how best to provide free bus travel to people who are seeking asylum, refugees and displaced people from Ukraine. That work continues.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

Notwithstanding what the minister has said, what more can be done to support people into employment—in particular, people with existing qualifications who require assistance to convert them to UK-equivalent qualifications, or who require to be upskilled to allow them to continue to work in their professional field?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

We are working with the DWP and local authority and third sector partners to provide employability support to Ukrainians who are seeking employment. They are able to access the Scottish Government’s full range of employment support services, including fair start Scotland, no one left behind services and Skills Development Scotland, which has advisers who are experienced in accreditation and qualifications recognition.

We have also been working with Scottish business organisations including Scottish Chambers of Commerce to ensure that displaced people are able to access business-led job-matching support. We will continue to take a collaborative approach where we can.

Sharon Dowey (Conservative, South Scotland)

Ukrainians coming to Scotland will require legal advice, among other services. Ukrainian lawyers who relocate to Scotland have the capacity to do a huge amount of good here, and the value of their linguistic and legal skills during the crisis has already been highlighted by the Law Society of Scotland. What attempts has the Scottish Government made to utilise Ukrainian lawyers during the resettlement process, and what processes are in place to overcome any Ukrainian-English language barrier?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

We obviously look to utilise anyone who arrives with skills or qualifications, especially those who arrive with language skills and are able to help others who arrive from Ukraine.

Regarding general advice and support, we have commissioned and have provided funding support for JustRight Scotland to ensure that people have access to as much immigration support as possible, so that they can fully utilise what is available to them.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

I thank the minister for his very welcome update regarding the recently announced funding for Aberdeen City Council.

I have had the absolute privilege of working with two constituents who hosted a Ukrainian couple who are now settled in their own home and are working, with a son in education. However, despite my constituents’ best efforts, obstacles remain that prevent Ukrainian holders of heavy goods vehicle licences, such as Alexander, from obtaining an equivalent United Kingdom licence and securing employment in a sector in which there are significant labour shortages.

Will the Minister explain what he is doing to press the UK Government to address that unnecessary anomaly as a matter of urgency?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I thank Audrey Nicoll and other colleagues in the Aberdeen area for their support for the bid that came in from Aberdeen City Council. The funding will make a massive difference in terms of providing long-term accommodation to Ukrainians in the area. I am very grateful to Audrey Nicoll and her colleagues for their support.

The licensing infrastructure and the rules that regulate the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency are reserved to the UK Government and the UK Parliament. The Scottish Government is, nonetheless, committed to doing all that we can within our remit for people who are seeking sanctuary in Scotland. I was pleased to hear that the DVLA is currently in contact with the Ukrainian embassy to obtain information on vocational licensing and testing standards, in order to assess the feasibility of an exchange agreement for drivers of larger vehicles. The Scottish Government will continue to call on the UK Government to urgently resolve that matter. I will write to my colleagues in the UK Government to press that issue once again.

Michael Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

The minister will be well aware of local authorities that are struggling to fund places for young Ukrainian refugees who are not permanently settled in Scottish schools. What funding is available to councils that welcome Ukrainian refugees but are currently finding that the welcome fund is not sufficient to deal with the demand for education that they face?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

Michael Marra is right. The UK Government has provided a tariff of £10,500 per person to cover the costs that are associated with supporting people who arrive from Ukraine. I said in my statement and in my response to Sarah Boyack that there is currently no parity among schemes in respect of whether the UK Government offers that support. For example, people who are part of the homes for Ukraine scheme have access to that £10,500, whereas people who arrive via the family scheme do not, which I find to be fundamentally unfair and wrong. That is another area in which the chaos of the UK Government in the past couple of months has meant that we have not been able to impress on it something that the previous minister had great sympathy with and wanted to resolve.

I also think that £10,500 probably falls short of what local authorities require—especially for children who have more complex educational needs. We have provided support over and above that to local authorities for welcome provision; it is up to local authorities to determine how best to spend that money. If there are particular issues and concerns that Mr Marra, or his colleagues in Dundee City Council or elsewhere, would like to raise with me, I am happy to hear those at any time.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

It is obvious that we must do everything that we can to make displaced Ukrainians feel secure and supported—not only upon their arrival, but in the longer term. What plans have been made for people who are at the end of their time with private hosts?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

One of the benefits of the supersponsor scheme is that we are already able to consider rematching and to provide temporary accommodation that is not available outside Scotland and Wales. It is unavoidable that host relationships will break down from time to time or will reach a natural conclusion, for a number of reasons. We will work with local authorities to finalise a consistent approach to rematching when that happens, both for supersponsor and private sponsor visa holders.

Some of the interventions that I have set out today will support all displaced people to access longer-term accommodation, including in the private rented sector. Local authorities have also begun contacting hosts and displaced people who are reaching six months of being in a hosting arrangement, in order to begin discussions about next steps.

However, it is important to note that, with our Welsh counterparts, we have called on the UK Government to raise the thank-you payment beyond £350. The one thing that we have received confirmation on—I do not think that this is well known in the public consciousness—is that that payment is available to people beyond six months. If they choose to maintain the relationship, they can still receive that payment.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

I thank the minister for his statement and the briefing that he gave earlier this afternoon.

The review that has been published today is welcome. It contains helpful information and guidance, including on the 16 interventions and the seven criteria for reopening the supersponsor scheme. However, g

iven that the seven criteria are not simple tests, can the minister say a little more about how they will be interpreted, assessed and applied? What other information will he use before taking a decision on whether to reopen the scheme?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

The tests are objective tests that need to be met. We have set out as best we can the tests that we feel need to be met before we can reopen the scheme. It will be no surprise to colleagues that availability of accommodation is part of consideration. The situation on the ground in Ukraine is also part of it, and sometimes those two issues will compete.

We will review the tests constantly, and I will look to do everything that I can to make sure that the scheme is working as effectively as possible, with good flow through the system of people moving from temporary accommodation into longer-term accommodation. That will allow us to reopen the scheme when the tests are met.

Jackson Carlaw (Conservative, Eastwood)

I want to probe the minister a little further on his response to Sarah Boyack with respect to the Ukraine longer term resettlement fund. I am aware of a possible site in my constituency, which is not local authority owned, that was until recently a care home facility with space for more than 80 residents. It is currently mothballed, but it could offer accommodation to Ukrainian families if refurbishment works were agreed and progressed.

Is there a route for such sites to be identified and progressed other than through a local authority, or can it be done only exclusively through that route?

Neil Gray (Scottish National Party, Airdrie and Shotts)

I said to Sarah Boyack and say again to Jackson Carlaw that I am happy to look at proposals that would provide suitable long-term sustainable accommodation for people arriving from Ukraine. For project management reasons and to ensure that we can provide properties at scale, we have looked for local authorities to do the bidding.

I suggest that Jackson Carlaw speak to his local authority to see whether what he suggests is something that it would be interested in facilitating and being part of. We can then have a conversation about whether there is flexibility in the scheme to allow something like that to take place.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes the ministerial statement and questions. I apologise to members whom I was unable to call, but I think that I made it clear how things were progressing. I could not have been clearer in that regard.

Low Income and Debt (Report)

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-06374, in the name of Elena Whitham, on behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, on “

Robbing Peter to pay Paul: Low income and the debt trap”.

I ask those members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons. I call Elena Whitham to speak to and move the motion on behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. You have up to nine minutes, Ms Whitham.

Elena Whitham (Scottish National Party, Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

As convener of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, I am pleased to open the debate on the committee’s important report on low income and debt.

YouGov research that was commissioned by Citizens Advice Scotland found that more than 600,000 people have encountered new debt problems during the pandemic, either getting into debt for the first time or seeing existing debt get worse. With the cost crisis, it is likely that we will see that number grow exponentially.

As the costs of basics rise sharply and energy prices skyrocket, households across the country are limiting their use of essentials and suffering a significant decline in their mental and physical wellbeing. People are desperately worried about the future, and we, as a committee, share their concerns. Spiralling costs will push an increasing number of people into debt because they simply do not have enough money to pay for all basic outgoings and bills.

As a committee, we set out to explore the specific challenges that people with low incomes face in accessing support and finding solutions to their debt situation. We wanted to find out what their key challenges are and how we could help them. What more could be done?

Our starting point for the work was a focus group with people who are experiencing debt problems. We wanted their experience to be at the heart of the inquiry and to inform the scope of our work. Their testimony shaped the questions that we posed in our call for views and the committee’s subsequent evidence-taking sessions.

What a stark picture those people painted. Despite receiving advice on social security entitlement and other forms of income maximisation, many people on low incomes simply did not have enough money to meet essential living costs. They were stuck in an inevitable cycle of debt, operating with deficit budgets, and there was often no obvious way out. Bankruptcy might be a short-term solution for some, but many people rely on money advisers spending significant time trying to negotiate reduced payments with public sector creditors or access charitable support, with the sole aim of enabling their clients to have enough money to live.

Participants from our original focus group formed our panel of experts by experience. The panel made recommendations to the committee on how things could be improved, which fed directly into the committee’s report. For us, this was about empowering people not just to tell us their story but to be involved in shaping change. The report title, “Robbing Peter to pay Paul: Low income and the debt trap”, is taken from a comment from one of our experts by experience.

I thank everyone who gave evidence to the committee and I particularly thank our experts by experience, who diligently engaged with us throughout our work. That would not have been possible without the organisations that supported them—the committee extends its sincere thanks to them all.

During this inquiry we were told:

“Problem debt has a particular stigma and shame attached to it that leaves people feeling trapped, isolated, unable to sleep. Many of these worries are related to wider stigma around poverty.”

Our inquiry was far reaching, and our recommendations span a number of different Scottish Government portfolios as well as local government and United Kingdom Government responsibilities. We looked at the school meal debt that is owed to schools, council tax debt, the advice sector, the availability of information and support, early intervention and prevention, mental health, and statutory debt solutions such as bankruptcy. I hope that my colleagues will touch on a range of those areas today.

In my remaining time, I will focus on just two of the key areas that the committee explored: public sector debt and money advice.

When we think of debt, we often think of the debt that is owed to private businesses, such as credit card debt and loans. Increasingly, we might think of debt as a result of fuel costs. We might not think so quickly about the role that the public sector plays in debt in areas such as social housing, benefit deductions, council tax, care charges and school charges.

We were told that the debt that is owed to public bodies is increasing as people struggle to pay bills. Collection of such debt can be quicker and harsher than collection from private creditors. Failure to pay council tax can result in enforcement action. CAS highlighted that council tax debt is one of the biggest debts that bureaux see. Local authorities tend to favour bank arrestments as a way of enforcing payment, which means that money can be seized from people’s bank accounts.

Steps have been taken to bring greater consistency to local authority debt collection, but we heard that that effort is not always felt on the ground. We were concerned to hear that public sector processes are not always sensitive enough to individual circumstances. Our experts by experience stressed that compassion must be built into processes and services. We cannot have rigid, faceless services that assume that the debtor is always wrong—that makes the whole experience worse and increases anxiety.

We need a fundamental change in attitude from the front-line services that are dealing with people in debt. The public sector should aim to lead best practice, by handling debt in a fairer and more considerate way. Debt recovery should be done proportionately, based on individual circumstances. People should be treated with compassion.

We were concerned to hear that people are sometimes failed by clunky systems that are not connected or easy to use. People must take it on themselves to navigate complex systems to get the support to which they are entitled—often at a time when they have limited emotional and financial capacity to do that. The burden of responsibility falls too often on the individual. That theme often emerges in our committee work.

Before I turn to the role of the free money advice sector, I want to touch on school meals, which is another important area in which quick action could be taken. Free school meal provision should be increased and rolled out at pace, and school meal debt should be written off. That is already happening in some but not all councils. As I said during my debate on challenge poverty week, weans need to eat.

Last but by no means least, I turn to the advice sector and the people across Scotland who are working tirelessly to help people who are existing in truly desperate circumstances. Money advisers are doing a hugely difficult but important job in helping people to navigate their finances—and advisers might be suffering from their own financial and wellbeing challenges in the process. Debt advisers told us that they are firefighting and hanging on by their fingertips. They are burned out by demand for their services, the complexity of cases and the lack of available options to resolve people’s problems. Witnesses raised issues around awareness of advice services, stigma around seeking help, channel choice and digital exclusion, as well as funding concerns.

Christians Against Poverty shared with us an example of one of the many people whom it supports through its debt advice. The client is coming to the end of a minimal asset process bankruptcy and their sole income is social security benefits. They suffer from depression, anxiety and panic attacks. Once they have been discharged from bankruptcy, they will have £8.55 a week to live on for food and all household items. Living on a budget of £8.55 is not sustainable, and the very tragic reality is that that individual will fall back into problem debt.

Debt advisers highlighted that many low-income households are

“the most prudent money managers you will ever come across. They know where every penny goes and can account for every part of their income. The problem is that the income is simply not enough to cover the costs.”

We must continue to use all available avenues to tackle poverty and resulting debt issues, and we must take a person-centred approach.

I am proud of the committee’s inquiry and the work that it has undertaken to shine a light on the complex circumstances that lead people to become indebted and their struggle to find solutions to that debt. The systemic and interlinking challenges of tackling poverty were interwoven in that work. We made a wide range of recommendations that we think could make a real difference to people who are the most marginalised and overwhelmed by their debt—those whose incomes are so low that there can seem no feasible way to pay off debt and no way out of the debt trap.

I hope that the Scottish Government, the UK Government and local authorities recognise the compelling evidence received by the committee on these issues and work together to enact much-needed collective change.

On behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, I move,

That the Parliament notes the conclusions and recommendations contained in the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s 8th Report, 2022 (Session 6):

Robbing Peter to pay Paul: Low income and the debt trap

(SP Paper 211).

I note that I did all of that while having a menopausal hot flush. Yes—go me! [

Applause

.]

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Thank you and well done, Ms Whitham. I look forward to seeing you back at the members’ business debate later on.

Before we move to the next speaker, I encourage those who have not already done so to press their request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible. I call Gillian Martin to speak on behalf of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee.

Gillian Martin (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire East)

I thank the Social Justice and Social Security Committee for bringing the debate to the chamber.

Earlier this year, the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee completed its initial inquiry into health inequalities in Scotland. The rising cost of living inevitably impacted on our evidence.

Scotland has enduring health inequalities that are the result, in due part, of a number of historical factors that were outlined by several experts from whom we heard. We found that health inequalities increased across the population during the years leading up to the pandemic, then the pandemic exacerbated them. We heard that destitution rose during the pandemic. People from black and minority ethnic communities and disabled people were more likely to die, and caring responsibilities became almost insurmountable and caused mental health issues.

This is not a debate about health inequalities, but the inescapable fact is that poverty is the root cause of health inequality, and the rapid rise in the cost of living is set to worsen long-term health inequalities if action is not taken.

During our inquiry, we heard that the number of households in which spending exceeds incomes is rapidly increasing. We hear this phrase a lot, but the reality is that people are choosing between eating and heating, and that is impacting more and more families.

People with complex conditions or those who provide informal care have additional costs and often very little income. We heard that people with multiple sclerosis, for example, will face, on average, an additional £200 per week in bills. We also heard that some families have extensive medical equipment to power—many medical and mobility devices require charging or constant electricity to function. Members will be aware of recent coverage of a family facing an expected £17,000 energy bill to keep their daughter, who has cerebral palsy, warm and alive. The rest of the family will freeze to ensure that she can have heat in her room. Many people with disabilities or reduced mobility must have their heating at higher levels to stay warm or to prevent them from becoming seriously ill.

During our inquiry, people told us that they have had to stop social and recreational activities due to the increased costs. We and our predecessor committees have advocated for the importance of physical activity, social interaction and participation in social and cultural activities as ways to prevent ill health. If people are unable to afford to do those activities, physical and mental health suffers and social isolation increases. We heard of people being unable to attend health and social care services and stopping self-management because of financial hardship. We heard of pensioners being pushed into extreme fuel poverty and that, as a result of the cost of living crisis, and despite all the interventions that have been made by the Scottish Government, child poverty is on the rise.

The poorest and most vulnerable people in society are bearing the brunt of the crisis, and things could get significantly worse for a lot of households. Professor Sir Michael Marmot told us that inflation has a much bigger impact on households with low incomes than it does on households with higher incomes. That seems self evident. This is not just an exercise in philosophy—inflation is making a real difference and pushing people who live on the margins of their income into poverty, thus widening health inequalities. That was laid bare to the committee. We were told that people in the poorest communities are, quite literally, dying because of inequalities, poverty and the repeated challenges that they are facing. Professor Gerry McCartney told us plainly that

“rising mortality for our poorest communities will get worse, and ... get worse faster, if those challenges are not addressed properly.”—[

Official Report, Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

, 24 May 2022; c 24.]

We are left in no doubt that the cost of living crisis is an urgent public health and social justice emergency. As a committee, we have recommended targeted action to address health inequalities, including tackling underlying inequality and poverty, the root causes, at all levels: local government, Scottish Government and UK Government. Action is needed at all levels, and it is needed now, or we will be seeing widening health inequalities for generations to come.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Siobhian Brown to speak on behalf of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee.

Siobhian Brown (Scottish National Party, Ayr)

As convener of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee, it is my pleasure to speak about such an important topic, and I commend the Social Justice and Social Security Committee for bringing the debate to the chamber.

I will shortly talk about some of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee’s work within the context of the cost crisis. First, though, it is important to stress that the impact of the cost crisis is a cross-cutting issue that affects everyone. This debate is an excellent opportunity to highlight parliamentary committees’ welcome scrutiny of the issue.

Like other committees, we have just completed our pre-budget scrutiny. Last week, we wrote to the Deputy First Minister with our recommendations, which included calling on the Scottish Government to clarify whether the cost crisis will affect the funding of the Covid recovery strategy. As members are aware, the strategy was published in October 2021, well before the scale of the cost crisis was apparent. During evidence, we heard how the impact of the cost crisis could affect the funding and delivery of the strategy, with stark warnings that it will pose significant challenges for organisations, service providers and individuals that are even greater than those faced during the pandemic. The Scottish Government’s budget is worth roughly £1.7 billion less than it was last December, and we asked whether the Government intends to refresh the strategy to reflect any policy changes in the light of the cost crisis.

In a similar vein, at a recent Conveners Group meeting, I asked the First Minister whether the Government’s priorities for recovery had changed in the light of the cost crisis. She confirmed that its aims and objectives for recovery had not changed but that the context had. The First Minister spoke of the importance of focusing on inequalities made worse by the pandemic and the cost crisis, particularly for ethnic minorities and those who are less well off.

Among many other things, the report considered bankruptcy and digital exclusion, both of which have been impacted by the cost crisis. The COVID-19 Recovery Committee also considered those areas as part of our scrutiny of the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill. Put simply, the bill was introduced to make permanent some provisions that were introduced through emergency Covid legislation in relation to public health and public service reform, which covered the remote delivery of public services. The aim was to retain service improvements that had been brought in during the pandemic and support resilience against future public health threats.

We heard about the experience of delivering public services remotely, including increased flexibilities and resource savings. However, witnesses highlighted some of the barriers to accessibility that exist for some users. The committee recommended that the bill be amended to ensure that all local authorities provide a choice of remote or in-person services, including the provision of hard copy documents where required.

We also considered the bill’s provisions on bankruptcy. Before I go on, it is worth explaining that people can only be forced into bankruptcy by their creditors if they owe more than a certain amount of money. Covid emergency legislation increased the debt threshold at which a creditor could make someone bankrupt, to protect people from harsh outcomes during the pandemic, and the bill set it permanently at a higher rate. The committee heard mixed views on what the debt threshold level should be, and it noted that the cost crisis had escalated considerably since the bill was introduced. The Government subsequently acknowledged the need to keep the threshold under review, particularly in the light of the current economic situation.

I turn to the committee’s future work. We are about to look at the impact of Covid on the labour market, focusing specifically on the proportion of economically inactive people who are on long-term sickness absence, as well as those who have chosen early retirement.? I am sure that issues relating to the cost crisis are bound to come up over the course of our inquiry.

As has been the case with Covid itself, this issue is a complex one that will not go away any time soon. As other members have said, addressing it will require actions from both the UK and Scottish Governments. Today’s debate highlights the strong parliamentary scrutiny that is being carried out to ensure that we can respond appropriately to the fiscal pressures that we all face.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I advise members that we have a little time in hand, so, for the foreseeable future, members who take interventions will get their time back.

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

I am grateful to Elena Whitham and her committee for their substantial work on this inquiry. I thank the individuals and organisations who took the time to give evidence on the issues that are affecting people and on how Governments can target their efforts to help those who are most in need. I also thank Gillian Martin and Siobhian Brown for their contributions on behalf of their committees.

The continuing negative impact of Brexit and the current cost of living crisis have pushed households into hardship, and I am acutely aware of that. Those pressures have been made worse by the economic mayhem that the UK Government has caused over the past few weeks. All of that has exacerbated existing inequalities and financial stress since the committee published its report and the Scottish Government provided our response on the actions that we are taking and our plans for the future.

The committee’s recommendations raised a number of issues that span a wide range of policy areas and local, Scottish and UK Government responsibilities. Within our limited powers and finite budget, the Scottish Government is already addressing many of the recommendations in the inquiry report. We will continue to work across Government as well as with partners, including the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, to improve the response to and the services available for people who are experiencing problem debt.

Households are facing the most severe economic upheaval in a generation, with alarming rises in energy bills, food prices and inflation rates undoubtedly hitting people who are on the lowest incomes the hardest. The Scottish Government’s budget is not immune to such economic shocks. As the Deputy First Minister set out last month, our budget is now worth around £1.7 billion less than when it was set in December, because of increasing inflation.

Yet, in stark contrast to the UK Government, the Scottish Government has taken sustained and significant action to tackle poverty. This year, we have allocated almost £3 billion for support that will mitigate the impact of increasing costs on households, more than £1 billion of which support is available only in Scotland. Through free childcare, bus travel, prescriptions, eye tests, dental check-ups and period products, we are supporting households in all areas of life through a range of actions, all of which will help people through this crisis and beyond.

Putting a total of £150 million in the pockets of low-income families through bridging payments over this year and last is also providing direct cash support to households now. In direct response to the additional pressure that families face this winter, we are also doubling the December payment for eligible families.

Jeremy Balfour (Conservative, Lothian)

One of the budget measures that had been hoped for was that free school meals for primary 7 pupils would be provided in this financial year, but that has been delayed by at least one year. Will the cabinet secretary confirm that, in the next academic year, every child in Scotland who is in P7 will have free school meals?

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

As Jeremy Balfour will be aware, the free school meal provision in Scotland is way in excess of that offered anywhere else in these islands—particularly England, where his party is in power.

The fact that pupils are already receiving free school meals in primaries 1 to 5 is saving parents £400 per eligible child per year. We continue to work with our partners in local authorities to plan for expansion of that provision to pupils in primaries 6 and 7. That is being supported by £30 million of capital investment.

We will get on with supporting families in as many ways as we can.

Our actions show that the Scottish Government will always do what it can to help those in need and take action to tackle child poverty, reduce inequalities, and help households to maximise their money. Through up to £86 million in discretionary housing payments, we are fully mitigating the bedroom tax for 91,000 households this year, supporting tenancies and reducing the chances of getting into debt and rent arrears. We have now committed to additional funding to mitigate the benefit cap as far as we are able for up to 4,000 families.

That is a clear commitment in our tackling child poverty delivery plan and an example of our track record of using all of the powers available to us to soften the blow of the worst of the UK Government’s policy decisions. We also recently announced that local authorities can use their discretionary housing payments budget to support households with energy bills—we have committed an additional £5 million for that.

Financial pressures are often felt most acutely by people who rent their home. That is why we took action through the Cost of Living (Tenant Protection) (Scotland) Act 2022, which came into force last week, to help tenants through the challenging months ahead by freezing rents and preventing evictions.

When people are in need of a safety net, our Scottish social security system, built on the principles of fairness, dignity and respect, provides 12 benefits, seven of which are unique to Scotland. In just over a week, our package of five family payments will be worth more than £10,000 for eligible families by the time that their first child turns six. That package includes the Scottish child payment, which we doubled to £20 per week per child in April and will increase again to £25 when we extend it to under-16s on 14 November. That is a 150 per cent rise in eight months, which is way ahead of anything available anywhere else on these islands.

In addition, our child winter heating assistance supports the families of almost 20,000 severely disabled children and young people, with payments totalling around £4 million each year. This year’s payment of £214.10 is already reaching people. Again, that is a Scottish benefit that is available only to those in Scotland, as is our new winter heating payment, which will replace the UK cold weather payments. That guaranteed £50 annual payment will be paid from next February to around 400,000 low-income households. That is backed by investment of £20 million and is guaranteed help with winter fuel bills for thousands of people in need.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

I note what the cabinet secretary has said about the child winter heating assistance. Does she agree that disabled people over the age of 16 also face increased fuel costs? What can the Scottish Government do to support those families?

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

We recognise that. Many of the things that I have already talked about will help people with disabled family members. The Scottish welfare fund, which we also fund, is available to families that have someone with a disability. We will continue to look at what more we can do within the context of a very constrained financial outlook.

We are already spending £460 million above the level of funding that we receive from the UK Government in relation to benefit expenditure. That is substantial.

We are doing much more to support people. We are also leading the way with the provision of the most generous universal free school meal provision in the UK, so that our children are not hungry in school and can focus on learning. We also continue to provide funding for local authorities across Scotland for schemes such as the council tax reduction scheme, and the Scottish welfare fund, which I just mentioned. Those schemes can provide much-needed support to vulnerable households.

Furthermore, we are the only part of the UK to have a statutory debt repayment scheme, which offers important protections for those taking control of their debt. We have also taken action on the protected minimum balance that can be retained in relation to a bank arrestment—the minister will say more on that later.

We recognise that financial difficulties can sometimes overwhelm people. At those most difficult times, advice services play a vital role in helping people to understand what they are entitled to and what their rights are. That is why we have allocated £12.5 million this year to advice services, including advice on debt, welfare and income maximisation. Over the past four years, our Money Talk Team service has put just over £47 million into the pockets of almost 21,500 people. We have also committed to an additional £1.2 million package to enable the expansion of energy advice services. That is in addition to our welfare advice practitioners in general practices, who help people when they go to see a health professional.

I will close now, Presiding Officer.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I can give you a bit more time, because we have a bit of time in hand.

Shona Robison (Scottish National Party, Dundee City East)

That would be extremely helpful. Thank you.

We have tried to bring together in one place all the information that I have described, because we know that it can be challenging for people to find out what they are entitled to. That is why we recently launched a cost of living website, as part of the Scottish Government’s website, which provides trusted advice to help people to understand the significant range of support that is available.

We are acutely aware of the growing impact on low-income households of debts to the public sector, which Elena Whitham mentioned. Local authorities have powers to write off arrears, and we continue to encourage them to share good practice on debt assistance and collection and to show empathy and dignity when they are working with people who are struggling with debts.

The UK Government holds many of the levers that would lift households out of poverty, and I remain deeply concerned about its long-standing approach to social security. Although we are using all of the powers that are available to us to support households where we can, including uprating our benefits, the social impacts of real-terms cuts to UK Government benefits are significant, and more people on a low income are being driven into poverty or deeper into poverty. I urge the UK Government to reflect on that when it comes to its budget statement.

We cannot have further austerity inflicted by the UK Government. As the First Minister told the Prime Minister last week, the UK Government holds the levers over energy, tax and the bulk of benefits, along with business support and regulation that could help to address the crisis and support households, public bodies and business in the future. We have called on the UK Government to provide an inflationary uplift to the 2022-23 budget to enable the Scottish Government to take further steps to support people with the cost of living crisis, provide fair public sector pay uplifts and support public services, given the fiscal constraints on devolution.

I once again thank the committee for its comprehensive report and for bringing the debate to the chamber to allow us to shine a light on all those issues.