Scottish Parliament, 28 September 2022

294 contributions from 58 members. The official report.

Point of Order

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good afternoon—

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

At least allow me to say “Good afternoon”, Mr Kerr.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I did not want to miss my opening, Presiding Officer.

I have, I admit, asked this question before in the chamber. It relates to the inequalities that exist between the Executive and Parliament and how badly we need a Parliament that has the power to hold the Executive to account.

Members quite often get short shrift from ministers when we ask oral questions in the chamber—when they do not answer the question at all but simply read out a civil service briefing that happens to be there in front of them, regardless of the specific nature of the supplementary question that is asked.

Today, Presiding Officer, I am asking for your help and guidance in respect of the quality of the answers that I am getting as a member of this Parliament in response to my written questions. In February this year, I asked a question, which was designated S6W-06242. In response, I was told

“We are working closely with local authorities and are in planning stages of this commitment. We will report to Parliament in due course.”—[

Written Answers

, 4 February 2022; S6W-06242.]

Six months later I asked the same question again, because I had not heard anything in the chamber about the matter. That written question was designated S6W-10759. I was given exactly the same answer—six months later. That is just one example of something that is commonplace and has been experienced by many members across the chamber.

Presiding Officer, what can you do, on behalf of us, as members, to ensure that the Government even attempts to answer the written questions that we submit, as members, on behalf of our constituents?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr Kerr—and thank you for advance notice of the point of order. However, you will be aware that the content of written answers is not set out in standing orders. Therefore, that is not a point of order on which I can rule, I am afraid.

Covid-19 Recovery and Parliamentary Business

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

We move on to portfolio questions. I remind members who wish to ask a supplementary question to press their request-to-speak buttons during the relevant question. I would appreciate short questions and answers to match, in order that we might get through as many questions as possible.

Citizens Assemblies

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what progress has been made on the rolling out of citizens assemblies. (S6O-01380)

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

The Scottish Government has committed to providing more opportunities for people to share their experiences and views and to influence Government decisions, including—but not limited to—citizens assemblies.

In March, the institutionalising participatory and deliberative democracy—IPDD—working group delivered its report, recommending that infrastructure and processes are required to deliver those commitments and to learn lessons from previous citizens assemblies. The recent programme for government committed to responding to the report. That response will set out steps for how we can routinely involve people, communities and children in democratic decision making.

Rona Mackay (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

Does the minister agree that, as we are in the middle of a cost of living crisis that is being exacerbated by Tory budget policies that benefit the wealthy, a citizens assembly forum on the issue is urgently needed?

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

The cost of living crisis is an important issue for public deliberation, in helping to identify equitable ways, which have public support, to move through the crisis. At present, we are not in a position from which to run a short-notice citizens assembly on the issue.

However, we have set up a people’s panel on wellbeing in 2022 and beyond, which has met three times so far. The cost of living crisis has been discussed with panelists to provide us with in-depth understanding of people’s views on the crisis and of its current and anticipated impact on people’s lives.

Covid-19 Recovery (Programme for Government 2022-23)

Jim Fairlie (Scottish National Party, Perthshire South and Kinross-shire)

2. To ask the Scottish Government how measures set out in its programme for government 2022-23 will support Scotland’s Covid-19 recovery. (S6O-01381)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Recovering from Covid-19 remains a priority for the Scottish Government. The 2022-23 programme for government outlines the range of actions that we are taking to support that, and it addresses the impacts of the pandemic across our society, economy and health services. It sets out our investment for the next year through the Covid support fund, which assists those who are living with long-term effects of infection; outlines financial support that is available for local economies that are dealing with the impacts of the pandemic; and undertakes to eradicate healthcare waits of more than 18 months in most specialties.

Jim Fairlie (Scottish National Party, Perthshire South and Kinross-shire)

In relation to pandemic or disease resilience, in the Scottish Parliament’s COVID-19 Recovery Committee evidence session on 8 September, Carolyn Low, who is the director of finance at NHS National Services Scotland, said that in the event of a future pandemic crisis that affected only Scotland, the funding would have to come from existing Scottish funding sources. Does the Scottish Government have the fiscal flexibility that it requires to respond to such a crisis?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Mr Fairlie will be familiar with the range of powers and responsibilities that the Government has within the parliamentary system. Of course, one of the key limitations is that we do not have the capacity to borrow for resource spending purposes, other than for very limited purposes in relation to financial management. Therefore, in the scenario that Mr Fairlie has put to me—a pandemic emerging that would require additional public expenditure within a financial year—in order to prioritise dealing with such a pandemic, the Government could provide support only by taking resources that are allocated to other areas of expenditure. Obviously, I would hope that if there were to be an event that happened at United Kingdom level, the wider workings that we saw during the Covid-19 pandemic would be relevant and would be applied. Obviously, the Government would co-operate with that in any future scenario.

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

One sector that needs help to recover from the pressures of Covid is the social housing sector. The Scottish Government’s programme for government proposes a bill to freeze rents, although we have not yet seen that bill and, I believe, are not to see it until shortly before we are due to debate it on Tuesday.

This week, I received a letter from Kingdom Housing Association in my region. In it, it expresses serious concerns about a rent freeze. It says that

“a rent freeze in the social sector is a serious threat to the Scottish Government’s targets on decarbonisation and affordable housing.”

The letter goes on to say that the freeze will lead to a reduction in the association’s delivery of new homes, as well as

“the deferral of planned maintenance works ... and ... a potential reduction in service delivery standards to tenants”.

How does the Scottish Government respond to those very serious concerns from social housing providers?

Although this is not directly relevant, Presiding Officer, I should remind members of my entry in the register of interests in relation to private rented property.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The issues that Mr Fraser raises on behalf of Kingdom Housing Association are all legitimate questions that Parliament will have to consider when it considers the proposed legislation, so it would be premature of me to give a specific response until the provisions are published. Adequate opportunity has been made available for Parliament to consider that proposed legislation.

The letter that Mr Fraser has quoted highlights the fact that there are really difficult choices to be made in this cost of living crisis. I suspect that we will have a lot of talk about that as I respond to questions this afternoon. There are very difficult choices that arise because inflation is putting enormous pressure on our budgets, and because individual householders face cost of living challenges. The Government has taken the decision that we need to protect people from rent increases for a limited period, given that such increases would exacerbate the effects of the cost of living issues.

Within all that, we will engage constructively with the social housing sector. However, I do not accept the idea that we can navigate our way through the cost of living crisis without difficult decisions having to be confronted. I have been completely open with Parliament about those difficulties; I gave a statement here three weeks ago on the difficulties in our budget. We will have more of those issues to wrestle with in the period to come.

Covid-19 Recovery (Budget)

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government what it anticipates the impact will be on its Covid recovery strategy of the reduction to the Covid recovery budget announced on 7 September as part of the emergency budget review. (S6O-01382)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The current fiscal environment presents real and significant pressures. Within the constraints of a fixed budget and limited powers, the Scottish Government is managing the nation’s finances while maximising the support that is available to those who are most affected by the pandemic and by the on-going cost crisis.

The emergency budget review is on-going and will assess all opportunities to redirect additional resources to those who are most in need as well as to reduce the burdens on businesses, stimulate the economy and support our wider recovery from the pandemic. Any changes to budgets that result from that will be formally set out to Parliament in the standard budget revision process.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Given the reduction in the budget, will the cabinet secretary give an update on ventilation in classrooms? Have classroom doors been cut along with the budget?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Frankly, I think that that question trivialises the difficulties that we face. It demonstrates where the Conservative Party is just now. The fact that on today of all days, when the United Kingdom’s public finances face absolute peril, Douglas Lumsden believes that he should use parliamentary time in such a flippant fashion, tells us everything. Mr Kerr has just been on his feet complaining about the quality of answers. Well, I am on my feet complaining about the quality of the questions from Mr Lumsden, who needs to up his game.

John Mason (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Shettleston)

Is the reality not that the Deputy First Minister needs to tell Douglas Lumsden that we have a problem with pressure on the Covid recovery budget and all other budgets because we have a crazy UK Westminster Government that is cutting taxes, allowing the pound to collapse and pushing up energy import costs and everything else?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I agree unreservedly with John Mason’s analysis of the current situation and his characterisation of the United Kingdom Government’s behaviour as “crazy”. In its fiscal event on Friday, the United Kingdom Government announced measures that have recklessly undermined confidence in the public finances and the economy, and it did absolutely nothing to alleviate the suffering of individuals in our society, many of whom will be Mr Mason’s constituents.

The United Kingdom Government needs to concentrate on stabilising the public finances, on removing the ridiculous budget provisions that it put in place on Friday and on addressing the serious issue, which I have put to it, that our budget is now, because of raging inflation in our economy, worth £1.6 billion less than it was when we set it. That is the real challenge that we face.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

Earlier this month, the Scottish Government wrote to integration joint boards to inform them that they will have to return unspent Covid reserves. That is an extraordinary decision, given that the deadly virus has not gone away and that clinicians warn of a really challenging period ahead for the national health service and social care. Will the cabinet secretary explain why he is raiding the coffers of IJBs at a time when they need support to deliver vital health and social care services? Does he agree that, if it had been the UK Government clawing back money from Scotland, he would have been enraged, and rightly so?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The reason why that needs to be done is that we have to use all the means available to us to support public servants, many of whom work for integration joint boards, to deliver healthcare in our society following increased pay deals to deal with the consequences of inflation.

I do not need to explain this to Jackie Baillie, but I will, just for completeness. The Scottish Government cannot borrow for resource purposes, and we cannot change tax rates during the financial year, so unless the UK Government expands the resources that are available by changing the spending envelope, no extra resources will be available to us.

During my conversation with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on Friday, I took the opportunity to press the case for increases in public spending. He was entirely unsympathetic to my appeals for that step to be taken, so the Scottish Government must, because we do not have access to flexibility, look at various ways in which we can utilise resources in order that we can afford increased pay claims and address other pressures within the financial year. What Jackie Baillie cited is one example of the steps that the Government has to take.

Covid Recovery Strategy (Cost of Living)

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

4. To ask the Scottish Government how the cost of living crisis is impacting its Covid recovery strategy. (S6O-01383)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Covid recovery strategy commits us to actions that support financial security for low-income households. The cost of living crisis represents an unprecedented challenge that is impacting people across Scotland and we are providing significant additional support to help mitigate that situation. By March, we will have invested almost £3 billion in a range of measures for households, supporting energy bills, childcare, health and travel, as well as social security payments.

In our programme for government, we announced several further responses to maximise support for those in need, including a new winter heating payment, the doubling of our fuel insecurity fund to £20 million, £5 million additional funding for discretionary housing payments, and further action to reduce the cost of the school day for families.

Stephanie Callaghan (Scottish National Party, Uddingston and Bellshill)

Last week, I met Matthew Cole, who is the head of the Fuel Bank Foundation, which is an organisation that mainly provides help for customers on pre-payment meters who are at real risk of having their energy supply cut off.

Given that the Tory United Kingdom Government has decided to prioritise the wealthy at the expense of ordinary families, what powers does the Scottish Government need in order to realise Scotland’s energy potential and to ensure that nobody has their lights and heating cut off when they do not have the cash to top up fuel?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The type of powers and responsibilities needed would be the powers to reform the energy market and to apply a windfall tax to energy companies, which will profit enormously from the rise in energy costs. However, under the current UK Government proposals, the burden of paying for all that support will be added to the borrowing stock and obligations of future generations. Those examples show how getting wider powers for the Scottish Parliament would make a difference.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

As Scotland’s economy recovers from the Covid crisis, what can the cabinet secretary say to people who are facing a tough winter of skyrocketing energy costs, especially people, including many of my constituents, who are reliant on heating oil, for which there is no cap?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I have every sympathy with the point that Beatrice Wishart has raised. Indeed, the other week I had the pleasure of meeting Councillor Emma Macdonald, the leader of Shetland Islands Council, after she had published an analysis of the expected increases in costs for people in Shetland and the Orkney islands, which will be at an even greater level because of temperature and limited daylight over the winter.

I have every sympathy with the points that the member has raised and I assure her that we will continue to make representations to the UK Government to provide direct intervention. If we can try to offer support in other ways through some of the financial schemes that the Scottish Government has available, I will ensure that that information is available to Beatrice Wishart’s constituents, so that they might access such funds.

Covid Recovery Strategy (Dundee)

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what funding it has provided to Dundee to support the city’s recovery from the pandemic. (S6O-01384)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Covid recovery strategy brings together more than 70 actions that will support people across Scotland by increasing the financial security for low-income households, enhancing the wellbeing of children and young people, and creating good, green jobs and fair work.

The strategy also focuses on renewing public services to ensure that they meet the specific needs of people and communities. For example, in Dundee, our best start, bright futures delivery plan, which will help tackle child poverty, is testing holistic support to help parents access work and increase their incomes.

Furthermore, Dundee City Council will receive £353.4 million to fund local services, which equates to an extra £27.8 million compared with the past financial year. That funding is in addition to Covid-19 funding of £50 million through the local government settlement, over and above regular grant payments.

Joe FitzPatrick (Scottish National Party, Dundee City West)

I welcome the additional funding, which has enabled the city’s Scottish National Party council to implement the £800,000 fuel well Dundee scheme, which provides targeted support for energy bills, and to provide £400,000 for tackling food insecurity, £200,000 for money and energy advice and £500,000 for business recovery.

Does the cabinet secretary agree that, although those schemes are welcome and provide crucial support for my constituents, it is unfortunate that the lack of sufficient action from the Westminster Government in areas such as those, which are reserved responsibilities and, indeed, its pursuing of deliberately damaging policies, has required the Scottish Government and Dundee’s SNP council to step in to support local people?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I welcome the steps that the Dundee City Council administration has taken to support people who face challenges at this time. I agree with Mr FitzPatrick that those interventions will assist individuals. I regret the fact that they have been necessary as a result of the lack of action from the UK Government. However, those interventions demonstrate the benefit of Dundee City Council acting on behalf of the people of Dundee, as I would expect it to do.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We will have a brief supplementary from Mercedes Villalba.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

Although the money that has been allocated to councils through the local authority Covid economic recovery fund is welcome, it does little to reverse the damage to local services that has been caused by a decade of cuts. The Scottish Government has cut real-terms—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I said “brief”.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

—cumulative funding for councils by 4.2 per cent, and we have heard that it is clawing back funding from the integration joint boards. Will the minister provide an assurance that councils will be able to use all the funding that is allocated to them through the economic recovery fund without fear of that being clawed back, too?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

In my answer to Mr FitzPatrick, I pointed out that Dundee City Council had received £27.8 million more in funding from the Government than it did in 2021-22. That is in addition to the £50 million of Covid-19 funding that is being provided through the local government settlement.

The Government has been providing substantial support to local government and, in recent weeks, we have provided additional in-year support to enable the local government pay deal to be settled. The Government’s making available those new, additional resources shows that it is doing its level best by local authorities in Scotland.

Covid Recovery Strategy (Fiscal Statement)

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions have taken place with ministers across Government regarding the impact of the United Kingdom Government’s fiscal statement on Scotland’s Covid recovery strategy. (S6O-01385)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Since the Covid recovery strategy was published, and particularly in recent months, rising inflation, the worsening cost of living crisis and the UK Government’s inaction have made it even more critical for the Scottish ministers to focus our efforts on supporting those who are most in need.

We are undertaking an emergency budget review to assess any and all opportunities to redirect additional resources to those who are most in need, to reduce the burdens on businesses and to stimulate the Scottish economy.

Bill Kidd (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Anniesland)

The mini budget announced by Kwasi Kwarteng prioritises lining the pockets of the rich through cutting corporation tax and cutting the 45 per cent tax rate that is paid by the wealthiest individuals in the UK. Does the Deputy First Minister agree that we need to focus on rebuilding our economy post-Covid, post-Brexit and in the current context of international uncertainty, rather than take unnecessary risks that will not protect people on low to average incomes?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

Yesterday, I set out to Parliament the very significant concerns that the Scottish Government has about the measures that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on Friday. The concerns that were set out to Parliament yesterday by ministers have been amplified by yesterday’s intervention by the International Monetary Fund, the commentary from ratings agencies and today’s intervention by the Bank of England, which demonstrate that the announcements that were made on Friday were foolish and very damaging, and that they are causing significant financial volatility for the UK. That will have an effect on householders and the public finances into the bargain.

Covid Business Resilience and Support Directorate

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

7. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on how the work of the Covid business resilience and support directorate is supporting its Covid recovery strategy. (S6O-01386)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Covid recovery strategy is focused on reducing systemic inequalities and includes commitments to support the creation of good, green jobs and fair work in Scotland. Businesses play an important role in that aspect of recovery, and the Scottish Government has prioritised support for business. For example, in February 2022, the Scottish Government launched the £80 million local authority Covid economic recovery fund, which empowered local authorities to consider how best to support local businesses, communities and households through a focus on targeting support to maximise economic recovery in their areas.

All those steps have been assisted by the work that has been delivered by the Covid business resilience and support directorate.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

In June, Audit Scotland noted that it had taken too long to establish internal governance arrangements within the Scottish Government. It noted that it took until March 2021—

almost a year after the start of the pandemic—for the business resilience and support directorate to be formed. All the while, there were significant delays in getting support out to businesses, and concerns remain about the fact that significant funds that were allocated for Covid support remain unspent.

What lessons have been learned from the Government’s response? What action has been taken to ensure that any underspend in budget is targeted at continuing to support Scottish businesses?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

There were a number of interesting points in that. The Government acted with great urgency and speed to try to distribute funding support, because we recognised the gravity of the crisis that was faced with Covid.

I have read the Audit Scotland report on the funding. On the one hand, it was complimentary about how swiftly the Government moved. That is certainly feedback that I have had from many businesses in my constituency, which have told me that they would not be in business today had the Government not acted so quickly.

That was contrasted by the understandable demand for there to be proper governance around the arrangements. We have to be open about the fact that there is a challenge about the necessity to act with speed, to save businesses, and the necessity to have in place absolutely every check and balance that we would require to have.

Audit Scotland’s assessment of inappropriateness in the distribution of finances in Covid business support was that, in essence, it was of a minimal level. That cannot be said for all funding across the United Kingdom, and there is huge concern from the Public Accounts Committee in the House of Commons about these issues and the Westminster Government.

There is a difficult balance to be struck, but I assure Mr Halcro Johnston that the Government has approached the issue with the imperative of supporting businesses when they needed that assistance, and to do that as quickly as possible.

Electoral Reform (Consultation)

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

8. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its plans to consult further on electoral reform in Scotland. (S6O-01387)

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

Work has been under way over the summer to prepare a public consultation and my officials and I have had helpful initial discussions with several interested stakeholders.

Mark Ruskell (Green, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I thank the minister for that very welcome news. Greens have campaigned for a long time for a truly residence-based franchise in Scotland, in which everyone who lives here, including 16-year-olds, has the right to vote and stand in elections.

I hope that the new consultation will go some way to fixing inequalities in our electoral franchise in relation to candidacy rights, although I want to see it go further in extending voting rights to people who are seeking asylum.

How will the consultation encourage particularly disenfranchised communities to respond?

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

The consultation paper will be published by the end of this year. I have already met a number of key stakeholders in relation to possible consultation topics and I plan to continue that approach. I would be happy to consider any suggestion from the member and discuss further the issues that he has mentioned or any ideas that other members may have for the process.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

On that note, we will have two brief supplementaries, the first of which is from Stephen Kerr.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On that note, does the minister agree that the current modified D’Hondt system that we are using disproportionately rewards parties that do not stand candidates in constituencies? Should parties with candidates on the regional list ranking not have to stand candidates in constituencies for the system to be anything like fair and reasonable, rather than our having parties game the system?

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

As always, Mr Kerr is quite entertaining and has plenty of ideas on this issue. I would say that today is possibly not the time to start talking about rewriting the Scotland Act 1998. It is possibly a discussion for us all to have in the future.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I will spare the minister my full slide show from a recent visit to observe the Swedish election, but since we are on the subject of gaming, would the minister look at the Swedish system, which is the ultra-proportional open-list system, with 28 regions and a national rebalancing mechanism, as a means to avoid gaming of the electoral system in Scotland?

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

This is not to commit myself to anything at this stage, but I am quite willing to discuss that system with Mr Rennie and have a look at it, and we could possibly take it from there.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Deftly done. That ends portfolio questions on Covid-19 recovery and parliamentary business.

Finance and the Economy

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The second portfolio is finance and the economy. Again, should members wish to ask a supplementary question, I encourage them to press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question.

Impact of Pressures on Business

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has undertaken of the cumulative impact on business of the pressures of a weak currency, high inflation, rising energy costs and Brexit. (S6O-01388)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The impacts of inflation are affecting businesses across Scotland and have been exacerbated by the United Kingdom Government’s recent announcements, which have seen the pound fall to record lows, and the additional uncertainty that we have seen today.

That comes on top of Brexit. In the most recent business insights and conditions survey, 46 per cent of the businesses that are experiencing exporting challenges said that the end of the European Union transition period is the main cause.

The Scottish Government has engaged extensively with business and supports its calls to the United Kingdom Government for action. However, last week’s mini-budget gives tax cuts for the rich and little for households and businesses that are struggling to pay bills.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

We have had six chancellors since 2014. The pound was at $1.64 in 2014 and is now at $1.08 and probably falling. Annual inflation was 2.3 per cent; it is now 9.9 per cent, with forecasts of 22 per cent. The UK was in the euro in 2014; since leaving the EU, Scottish exports have decreased by 14 per cent. The energy price cap in 2014 was £1,100; it is now £2,500. We can add the comments by the International Monetary Fund and credit agencies today.

Does the cabinet secretary agree that the so-called stability of the UK economy, which is often mentioned by unionist politicians, is no longer credible in any way and that our businesses are being damaged?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

We are experiencing an acute period of volatility and uncertainty, which was started by Brexit and has been exacerbated by the crisis around Covid, the war in Ukraine and, now, the recklessness of the new Conservative Government. The idea that somehow the United Kingdom can be described as a stable economy, in the light of all the chaos and damage that has been done to business, is a fallacy of the past.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We have two brief supplementary questions.

Michelle Thomson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

The Bank of England can only hope that its emergency and unlimited gilt buying operation will be a temporary measure in the defences that are required against an incompetent Tory budget. Former monetary policy committee member Professor Blanchflower said that Kwasi Kwarteng has

“crashed the ... markets ... I’ve never seen such raging incompetence, ever.”

Does the cabinet secretary agree that Scottish people can simply no longer afford to pay the price of being attached to this failing UK state and that the UK Government must not impose swingeing cuts to Scotland’s budget?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

There are three points to make in that regard. First, one of the consequences of the chancellor’s recklessness on Friday is the risk of very significant reductions in public expenditure to try to restore market confidence. That would be a disaster for Scotland.

Secondly, the cost of remaining part of the United Kingdom is now acute for people in Scotland, when we see the damage of Brexit and this fiscal mismanagement.

Thirdly, I am struck by the ridiculousness of the Conservative Party demanding that I replicate the changes that the chancellor made on Friday, when we look at the chaos that has been inflicted on all of us as a consequence.

Beatrice Wishart (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

What can the Scottish Government say to businesses in the islands, who already face higher costs than their mainland counterparts and fear for their viability as economic confidence falls and overheads and inflation continue to rise?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

One of the issues about which I am most concerned is the scale of energy price rises, even with some of the measures that are now in place, for entirely profitable and sustainable businesses. I give Beatrice Wishart the example—which I have shared openly—of a farmer in my constituency. He explained to me that his energy costs are currently £50,000 a year and that he is being quoted £250,000. A difference of £200,000 is just impossible for that farming venture to find. An individual who is producing food for our domestic market faces the potential of not being able to continue to do so. Beatrice Wishart will have examples such as that one from her constituency.

We have to recognise the enormity of the risk that is faced. The scale of intervention has to be acute, to ensure that businesses that are perfectly viable in every normal circumstance can be assisted through this difficulty, as we assisted them in the context of Covid. However, we should not do that by saddling future generations with the level of borrowing that the United Kingdom Government proposes.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We are tight for time all afternoon. I must encourage more succinct questions and answers.

National Planning Framework 4 (North-East Scotland)

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

2. To ask the Scottish Government how the national planning framework 4 will be equipped to attract investment to north-east Scotland. (S6O-01389)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

National planning framework 4 will set out clear national policy and spatial priorities for every area, including the north-east. Once adopted, NPF4 will form part of the statutory development plan, will be reviewed every 10 years and will be central to planning decision making locally.

The increase in local application combined with our long-term vision for Scotland in 2045 means that NPF4 will give greater clarity and confidence to people, communities and investors—for example, in actively planning and delivering the just transition from oil and gas to a net zero future for the north-east.

NPF4 will be closely aligned with other Government strategies and will be accompanied by a delivery programme to support better alignment and co-ordination of delivery partners and their funding sources. It is for all sectors and stakeholders to help to deliver NPF4.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

Research by Scottish Renewables shows that the average planning decision for renewable energy projects can take around 772 days from submission, which is not compatible with meeting net zero by 2045. Renewable energy is key to tackling the climate emergency, securing Scotland’s energy supply and dealing with the cost of living crisis. Will the minister outline how all that will be delivered, given the timescales that I have referred to?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

We recognise the critical role of planning in helping to meet our net zero targets. Our package of planning reforms is focused on delivering clearer and quicker decisions to give greater confidence and predictability to those who plan to develop.

NPF4 will signal a turning point for planning, and we have been clear that responding to the global climate emergency and the nature crisis will be central to that, including by actively enabling appropriately located renewable energy developments. I am also working with the high-level group on planning performance to drive forward a programme to enhance resources and skills.

We have recently increased planning fees to enable additional resources for planning services, and we are preparing to recruit Scotland’s first national planning improvement co-ordinator to support good practice among authorities and users of the planning system.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I have a number of supplementary questions, and I impress on questioners and the minister that everything needs to be brief from this point on.

Maggie Chapman (Green, North East Scotland)

The minister will be acutely aware of the importance of genuine community engagement for local and regional economic development. Indeed, that is a vital part of the Scottish Government’s commitment to a just transition. Without listening to local voices, economic development cannot be just. How can we ensure that decisions on inward investment to north-east Scotland do not ride roughshod over the wishes and needs of local communities?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

People rightly want to be involved, and we want them to be involved in the decisions that shape the places in which they live, work and play. Effective public engagement can lead to better planning decisions and more satisfactory outcomes. Our planning system includes statutory and non-statutory opportunities for engagement, including in the preparation of local development plans that set out the future use of land in the area and the new place plans that were introduced by the Planning (Scotland) Act 2019.

Emma Harper (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

Will NPF4 provide greater flexibility for local authorities so that a community-focused approach to planning can be taken—for example, to tackle vacant and derelict buildings such as the Interfloor factory in Dumfries, which I am petitioning the council to take action on?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The member will appreciate that I cannot comment on specific cases, but we are carefully considering policies in the draft NPF4 on vacant and derelict land.

We also undertook a consultation on new-style local development plans. New-style LDP regulations will be laid shortly after the new NPF4 comes into effect.

Douglas Lumsden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Last month, the Bon Accord centre in Aberdeen plunged into administration, sparking concerns about its future. Business rates are killing our high streets, so how will NPF4 not so much attract new investment, but allow us to keep what we have?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The draft NPF4 recognises that we need to preserve and reuse existing assets; that comes from our net zero ambitions and from recognising the importance of place and having thriving centres. There are specific policies on centres in the draft NPF4, and we will bring a finalised NPF4 back to the Parliament later in the autumn.

Scottish National Investment Bank

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

3. To ask the Scottish Government how many projects and what total value of loans the Scottish National Investment Bank has supported. (S6O-01390)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The bank has made loan commitments of £103 million, and made fund and equity investments of £155 million across 20 companies and projects. Those investments have seen £482 million of co-investment of third-party capital. The investments have supported all three of the bank’s missions on net zero, place and innovation and people.

Brian Whittle (Conservative, South Scotland)

Businesses, especially those in the green economy and renewables sector, report to me that accessing potential funding from the Scottish National Investment Bank is problematic and wrapped in red tape, and that the bank looks for reasons not to invest and is risk averse. Surely investing in innovation in the renewables sector is what the SNIB is for, so will the Deputy First Minister agree to review the way that the SNIB lends money to ensure that Scotland does not miss out on the significant economic opportunities that the renewables sector brings?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am very happy to engage on that question, because one of the Scottish National Investment Bank’s priorities is to lend to sustainable projects with growth potential in the net zero environment. I have a list of projects that have been supported to assist that objective. If there are particular examples that Mr Whittle is concerned about, I will happily look at them and explore them with the bank. Over time, we will look at the performance of the bank and determine whether there are any obstacles. However, I assure Mr Whittle and the chamber that the bank is keen to lend to projects in those key areas.

Higher Property Rate

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of the Scottish Retail Consortium’s recommendation to accelerate the process of lowering the higher property rate. (S6O-01391)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Decisions on non-domestic rates—including the poundage and any reliefs or supplements—are considered in the context of the Scottish budget and in line with other Government priorities.

The Scottish budget 2022-23 delivers the lowest poundage in the UK for the fourth year in a row, ensuring that over 95 per cent of non-domestic properties in Scotland continue to be liable for a lower property tax rate than anywhere else in the UK.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

I did not hear an answer to my question on what assessment the Government has made of the SRC’s calls.

Back in 2017, the Barclay review, which was commissioned by the Scottish Government, called for the large business supplement to be reduced in order to make Scotland the best place in the United Kingdom to do business. Does the minister agree with the SRC that retaining a higher rate in Scotland is not a competitive approach, and will the Government look again at that policy in its forthcoming budget?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

I am very grateful to the SRC for its submission. The point that I made in my original answer was that it would be premature of me to set out what the non-domestic rates policy will be ahead of the budget being delivered later this year. Of course, we very much welcome the submission from the SRC and we will give careful consideration to it.

4 Day Week Global Pilot

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the findings of the survey of participants in 4 Day Week Global’s pilot. (S6O-01393)

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

The Scottish Government has a keen interest in the trial, and at the halfway point indicative results demonstrate positive experiences for employers and workers. There is no doubt that a four-day working week could bring environmental, health, wellbeing and productivity benefits, which is why ministers are committed to exploring the benefits further. Indeed, the programme for government restated our commitment to support research and advice to improve workplace productivity and wellbeing, including on the delivery of a four-day working week pilot, and we will bring forward specific proposals soon.

Mercedes Villalba (Labour, North East Scotland)

A four-day working week could save workers thousands of pounds in childcare and commuting costs. The Labour MP Peter Dowd has introduced a four-day working week bill to Westminster. Will the Scottish Government publicly back that bill?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Like Mercedes Villalba, I am a keen supporter of the four-day working week, and I am enthusiastic about the work that the Scottish Government is doing in this area. An example of that work is our new centre for workplace transformation, which will complement the existing pilot trials that are under way by analysing where there may be gaps in existing literature or analysis to explore possibilities for an alternative working practice that delivers more inclusive balance between work and personal lives.

Fiona Hyslop (Scottish National Party, Linlithgow)

My declaration of interests records my attendance at the four-day week conference in Valencia, in May, and I shared insights with ministers on that.

As productivity is a persistent challenge for Scotland and the United Kingdom, and as productivity gains have proved to be a key benefit of four-day week pilots—as has recruitment and retention of talented and valuable staff, which is important in a tight labour market—can the minister reiterate the Government’s commitment to a pilot? As the Portuguese Government has also announced that it will conduct four-day week pilots and is keen to learn from Scotland’s work, will the Scottish Government also commit to engage with other Governments on that agenda?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

Ministers remain committed to exploring the benefits of a four-day working week, which is why the 2022-23 programme for government includes a commitment to undertake research and advice to improve workplace productivity and wellbeing, including on the delivery of a four-day working week pilot. Our work will be informed by experience that has been drawn from similar programmes in other countries and elsewhere in the UK. Officials have already made plans to meet with the Valencian and Portuguese Governments next month.

Sanjeev Gupta (Meetings)

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

7. To ask the Scottish Government when it last met Sanjeev Gupta. (S6O-01394)

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Minister for Business, Trade, Tourism and Enterprise, Ivan McKee, last met Mr Gupta, on 15 August 2022.

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh Western)

Their auditors have resigned, there is an investigation by the Serious Fraud Office and the promised 2,000 jobs are nowhere to be seen. Their owners have warned that the plants may, in fact, shut. Does the Government regret ignoring warnings from its own economic advisers about doing deals with GFG Alliance, the owners of the Lochaber smelter and the Lanarkshire steel mills?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

The Government’s intentions were clear. We were taking those steps to try to protect employment. There are families who are employed in the Dalzell steelworks and at the Lochaber smelter today who would not be employed if the Government had not helped in that way that we did.

We are trying to ensure that we support employment in our society. There are commitments that GFG has to make to the Government. Those commitments are being delivered on in relation to the payments that are required as part of the financial arrangements that are in place. The Government will continue to monitor those issues and respond to any issues that are raised in Parliament.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Has the Scottish Government had any contact with the

Serious Fraud Office regarding the SFO’s investigation into GFG’s activities?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I do not think that I am at liberty to respond in detail to that question, but I will take advice and, if I am at liberty to do so, I will respond further to Mr Halcro Johnston in writing.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

With everything that has happened recently, there is a clear risk that GFG and Gupta’s financial empire will collapse. What is the total liability to the public purse if that were to come to pass?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

That is a difficult factor to calculate, given the various scenarios that could take place, but I reassure Mr Johnson that the Government has in place arrangements that ensure that all of the payments that are required to be made to the Government are up to date and the asset value of the Lochaber venture is in excess of any liability that could be created in the scenario that Mr Johnson raises in relation to that individual site.

Retail (Cost Pressures)

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

8. To ask the Scottish Government how it will address any concerns over cost pressures affecting the retail sector. (S6O-01395)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

As outlined in our programme for government, we will work with the business community to identify further measures that can assist in addressing increased costs and economic disruption. However, as the member will appreciate, the powers and resources needed to tackle this emergency on the scale required—access to borrowing, welfare, VAT on fuel, taxation of windfall profits, and regulation of the energy market—currently all lie with the United Kingdom Government. We have continually urged the UK Government to use all the powers and fiscal headroom at its disposal and we will continue to do everything within our resources and powers to help those who are most affected.

We have been calling for the UK Government to introduce a business energy cap for some time. I welcome that it has now done so, but without substantial reform to the energy market, there is a real risk that this temporary measure will prove to be inadequate.

Maurice Golden (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Let us look at what the Scottish Government could do, with

“Potentially thousands of businesses facing closure next year.”

That is the warning from the Scottish Grocers Federation over the proposed deposit return handling fees, which it warns will not cover retailer costs. Does the minister agree that it is worth at least having a review now, a year ahead of the launch, to ensure that retailers will not face serious losses?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

I am very much looking forward to speaking at the Scottish Grocers Federation conference next week. We are committed to the launch of the deposit return scheme next year. It is an industry-led scheme, but we have been engaging with business and we will continue to do so, including with the retail sector.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

The retail sector is facing substantial pressures as a result of the cost of living, not to mention Brexit. Can the minister provide any further information on the Scottish Government’s latest engagement with the sector regarding meeting current challenges and building resilience for the future?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Yes, we have regular engagement with the retail sector and the wider business community. I co-chaired the first meeting of the newly inaugurated retail industry leadership group on 25 August. We discussed a variety of issues, including the implementation of our retail strategy—particularly developing a fair work agreement and commencing a skills audit, which are both identified as key priorities in the strategy.

The next meeting of the group will be in early November and I am happy to keep members updated on its progress.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio questions. There will be a brief pause before we move to the next item of business.

Ferries

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-06071, in the name of Graham Simpson, entitled “Scottish Government Handling of Ferry Contracts.”

I invite members who wish to speak in

the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Last night, BBC Scotland broadcast its latest “Disclosure Scotland

”

programme, entitled “The Great Ferries Scandal”. We learned some very worrying things about the way in which ferries 801 and 802 were bought. Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd

broke its own tender rules, which say that there has to be a refund guarantee from bidders. There was not.

Ferguson Marine (Port Glasgow) Ltd

received a 424 page report to help its bid; a key section of its bid appears to have been cut and pasted from that. Ferguson

’s was allowed to change its design and change its price after the deadline, and it received a confidential in-person meeting. Nobody else got that treatment—and all the while, CalMac Ferries Ltd thought a rival bid was better.

In short, it appears that Ferguson’s became an inside-track shoo-in for the job, unbeknown to any other bidder. Ferguson’s received special treatment from the Government, which was desperate to award the contract to the yard—and we know how that ended up.

Yesterday, John Swinney told us that the vital documents cannot be found, and he said that it will be left to the Auditor General for Scotland to look into the matter. The Auditor General does a great job, but the Scottish Government should not be hiding behind him on this matter. In any case, it routinely ignores anything that he says. The Scottish Government needs to come clean, and it cannot use those revelations to stall and deflect. The buck stops with ministers—and there are several of them. If CMAL did favours for Ferguson’s, it was because it was told to do so. This goes all the way to the top.

We could call what we saw on the BBC programme last night insider dealing, and it could leave the door open to costly legal action and add to the already astronomical cost of two ferries. Make no mistake—

the Scottish National Party’s handling of the matter is a scandal.

However, while the First Minister was on her tour of the Edinburgh fringe festival this summer, we learned that she does not see it that way.

Here is how it went with the respected broadcaster Iain Dale.

“

Iain Dale:

You’ve been in power, the party’s been in power, since 2007, that’s ample time for that to have been sorted out. I mean there’s clearly a scandal over how the procurement was managed. Do you take responsibility for that?

Nicola Sturgeon:

I take responsibility for everything that happens in government, whether I like it or not. The buck stops with me on everything. I don’t shy away from that. I take issue with your language there but there’s no point getting into that.

Iain Dale:

What’s your issue?

Nicola Sturgeon:

Well—‘scandal’. I don’t think it’s a scandal. I think there has been a situation with these two ferries that I don’t think is acceptable and we’re learning lessons from that and focusing on putting that right.”

The First Minister does not think it is a scandal; it is “a situation”. Maybe the “Disclosure Scotland” programme should have been called “The Great Ferries Situation”. It is a scandalous situation, and that means that we need a public inquiry and a police investigation to get to the bottom of it.

If people in the Government knew how to behave properly, heads would roll. Derek Mackay has gone, but so far, nobody has taken the rap. They never do. Remember, though, what the First Minister said:

“the buck stops with me”.

Let us see if that is true.

Derek Mackay says that awarding preferred bidder status was nothing to do with him because he was on holiday. He says that his then boss Keith Brown was responsible. We know that CMAL eventually wanted to retender because of concerns about the lack of a builders refund guarantee from Ferguson’s. We also know that it did not want the preferred bidder status of Ferguson’s to be announced in public. But why get in the way of a good photo op? Announced it was, by who else but the First Minister, on 31 August 2015. Mr Mackay awarded the final contract and accepts his share of the blame. He announced it in another photo op at the SNP conference on 16 October 2015.

Of course, none of that was political. Perish the thought. John Swinney’s mitts are all over this, too. He signed off on the payment, despite knowing that there were concerns.

Meanwhile, the Glen Sannox—the fake-windows ferry that was launched in another photo op by Nicola Sturgeon in 2017—is still not complete, and the 802 is even further behind. Furthermore, a letter today from David Tydeman suggests that there might be even more delays.

So many photos—so little to show for them.

If members want to hear about some more buck passing, they should just listen to what ministers are saying about Ardrossan harbour. That is where the Arran ferry goes to, but the new Arran ferry—when it is eventually finished—will not fit, so work will have to be done to the harbour if the ferry is to dock there. The harbour’s private owners are now getting the blame for the fact that there is no agreement yet on who will pay for that. It is extraordinary; it is always someone else’s fault.

Derek Mackay has, at least, answered some questions, but he is no longer here. John Swinney, Keith Brown and Nicola Sturgeon—who says that the buck stops with her—are here, and it is they who should now walk the plank.

We must also think ahead and decide how we can best run the ferries. I first asked for sight of the project Neptune report in February, but Transport Scotland officials refused to release it until earlier this month. I welcomed its release, but I do not know why they dithered, because it does not tell us anything that we did not know already. We know that the clunky set up involving Transport Scotland, CMAL, CalMac and the minister does not work. It should be streamlined.

There is a mix of ferry services in Scotland: private, council-run, private hired by the Government, and just Government run. It is that last one that has the most problems. So, why rule anything out when we look at how we might run things in the future? Are we really saying that we want the west coast service to remain as one big monopoly, which would rule out council involvement and that of smaller local firms? We cannot let dogma get in the way of public services.

I speak to islanders regularly and hear the same stories every time. It was the same this week when I chatted to islanders from Arran and Mull. I heard about missed appointments, people not able to get to work, kids not getting to school and people moving away because the situation is too stressful. They fear that another winter of chaos, following a summer of chaos, looms. There is chaos upon chaos upon chaos, there is shambles and scandal, and now there is evidence that should merit a police investigation: we might go from the murky depths of the Clyde to a court of law. The situation is beyond shameful and it is islanders who are suffering. That must end—soon. And remember: the buck stops with the First Minister.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the long-awaited publication of the Project Neptune report on Scotland’s ferries; believes that the report sets out viable alternatives to the current structure, which is not delivering for islanders; calls on the Scottish Government to set out an urgent plan for fleet procurement, manufacturing and operations; notes that the CalMac fleet has become increasingly beset by technical issues and cancellations and that these technical issues are leading to increasingly higher repair costs; further notes that island communities, who have faced significant disruption already, are concerned that a lack of resilience in the fleet could cause further disruption this winter; expresses disappointment that, under latest estimates, vessels 801 and 802 will not be completed until May and December 2023, despite originally being due for completion in May and July 2018, and calls for a public inquiry into the matter.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I ask all members who wish to participate in the debate to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons.

I call Jenny Gilruth, the Minister for Transport. You have up to six minutes, please.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

It was only a few short weeks ago that I made a statement to Parliament confirming publication of the project Neptune report. I made clear my intention to engage with all parties in the chamber. Having noted the detailed findings of that report, all MSPs should now have received an invitation to meet the report’s authors, Ernst &Young.

I also made clear the need for consultation of stakeholders. Next week, I will meet CalMac and CMAL as we begin to develop the options and next steps for reform.

However, crucially—as Mr Simpson alluded to in his speech—our island communities must be part of the reform of governance structures in relation to delivery of ferry services on the Clyde and Hebrides network. Therefore, I am pleased that Angus Campbell, who is currently the chair of the ferries communities board, has agreed to lead our community consultation work on project Neptune’s next steps. I will meet Mr Campbell next week.

In my statement to Parliament, I was clear that things have to improve for our island communities. I know that there is a need for pace on next steps. That must be coupled with respect for the staff involved. I undertook to return to Parliament to debate fully the next steps for project Neptune, and I hope that the consensual tone that was struck in responding to that parliamentary statement will be reflected in contributions today.

As the Conservative motion notes, project Neptune sets out the

“viable alternatives to the current structure”.

I will work with all parties to secure agreement on a streamlined approach that will better deliver for islanders.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Does the minister agree that in order to ensure that the next steps are the right ones, there should be an inquiry into the ferries fiasco to find out what went wrong, so that it can never be repeated?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I remind Mr Kerr that we have had an inquiry by, I think, the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee in the previous parliamentary session and an inquiry by Audit Scotland. We have had project Neptune and we will have inquiries from the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee and the Public Audit Committee.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

I mean a public inquiry.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the minister give way?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I would like to conclude my point before Mr Mountain pops up. I understand the point that Mr Kerr is alluding to, but there have been a number of inquiries. In relation to the suggestion that I think Mr Kerr is alluding to, the Auditor General is looking at that in more detail. Therefore, at this time, I think that it would not be appropriate for me to prejudge the outcome of his further deliberations.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

First, as the convener of the REC Committee when it produced the report, I can say that the committee certainly was not aware of all the information that is currently being put in the public domain. To say that all that information was available to us and that we could draw conclusions from it is, frankly, wrong.

Secondly, as I understand it, the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee is not going to be looking at the procurement of vessels 801 and 802, but at future procurement of ferries and the ferries plan, which the minister has not updated for a considerable time.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, I will give you an extra minute for taking the two interventions.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Thank you. That brings me neatly to my next point in relation to investment.

As the motion calls for today, and as Mr Mountain asked for, the Government has committed to a long-term plan for investment in vessels and port infrastructure, which we will publish later this year as a key component of the islands connectivity plan. That will build on the investments that are being delivered in the infrastructure investment plan, which committed to £580 million of investment to provide new vessels and port upgrades.

I will reflect on some of the progress to date. We have secured the MV Loch Frisa and have her operating on the Oban to Mull route. We have been through the procurement process for two new Islay vessels, which will significantly increase capacity on the Islay route and accelerate replacement of the fleet. I am pleased to confirm that we expect the first steel to be cut on those vessels next week—on time and in line with the programme for delivery of those ships. Work is also on-going on replacement vessels for the Isle of Mull, the MV Lord of the Isles and up to seven vessels in the first phase of the small-vessel replacement programme.

However, I know that additional tonnage is needed in the CalMac fleet; we discussed that when I gave my statement to Parliament two weeks ago. Officials are at present urgently prioritising options for ministers; and I hope to be able to say more about that in due course, while noting the commercial sensitivities that are at play.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

Will the minister take an intervention?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I have already taken two substantial interventions.

I want to talk to the issue of winter resilience, which is also highlighted in the Conservative motion, because islanders might be anxious about the coming months. In January and February alone this year, 92.75 per cent of cancellations on the Clyde and Hebrides ferry service—CHFS—network were due to the weather or Covid. Therefore, to help to reduce the number of delays and cancellations related to the weather, we have committed to expanding to third-party ports funding for tide and weather monitoring equipment, which is currently in place at CMAL ports.

As part of the consultation on?the islands connectivity plan, measurable performance indicators are also being developed. They will be distinct from contractual targets and will better reflect the real experience of passengers. They will be visible and published targets, against which we can monitor performance, which is hugely important.

It is also worth saying that this year the Government is supporting CalMac to invest an additional £5 million to improve fleet sustainability and to provide a more resilient service for passengers and communities.

Dry dock this year will be extended, which will reduce the level and risk of unplanned disruptions that communities are faced with. CalMac has also made changes to some vessel deployment plans in order to prioritise reliability and improve the quality of the service on certain routes.? For any period of prolonged disruption, I will convene resilience groups with the ferries communities board, CalMac and local partners, as I have done since my appointment in January.

I will come on to talk about the ports for 801 and 802. I know that, today, Ferguson’s has provided an update to the NZET Committee, which the Government will want to respond to in further detail. However, I will now respond to some of the points that Mr Simpson raised in relation to the ports, because they are important.

Ardrossan has not been upgraded because of delays with the private owners of the port. However, that overlooks the significant investment that has taken place to ensure that vessels can operate from upgraded facilities at Troon. Troon has received £3.2 million of Scottish Government support, and it will be secured as an alternative port for the Arran service in the longer term.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, you have 30 seconds left.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

In addition, the investments in the ports on the Skye triangle means that they will be ready for 802 following the second closure period for the works at Uig.

Just weeks ago, I spoke of the need for constructive working across the chamber in relation to ferries governance and next steps. We owe it to island businesses, children and young people and everyone else who depends on those lifeline services to get it right. I look forward to hearing suggestions from members today to that end.

I move amendment S6M-06071.2, to leave out from “long-awaited” to end and insert:

“publication of the Project Neptune report on the governance of Scotland’s ferries; notes that ministers are engaging with affected communities, staff and all stakeholders on the options for reform; recognises that over £2 billion has been invested in the support of lifeline ferry services since 2007; welcomes the commitment to publish and consult on a long-term vessel and port investment plan as part of the Islands Connectivity Plan; recognises the concerns of island communities, and that ministers continue to work closely with them during periods of disruption; agrees that ensuring accurate reporting is key to avoiding unnecessary impacts on those economies, and notes the ongoing work to deliver the vessels under construction at Ferguson Marine, the positive relations between management and unions, and the protection of hundreds of jobs at the yard, including supporting over 50 apprentices, along with many more jobs in the supply chain.”

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Scotland’s islanders have an unreliable ferry service because Scotland has an unreliable ferry fleet. In relation to the project Neptune report, Scottish Labour welcomes the Scottish Government’s commitment not to unbundle the Clyde and Hebrides network and not to privatise it. Therefore, we would welcome further clarification from the minister that there will be no costly tender process because, if there is, privatisation is evidently still possible.

We need a review of governance and structures, but we cannot be—

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention?

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

I would like to make some progress.

We cannot be distracted from the fact that it is the failure to replace an ageing fleet that is the root cause of this ferries fiasco. In the short term, the Scottish Government needs to acquire ferries to help the situation in the here and now and to minimise disruption this winter. The recent statement from the Government on the future of Scottish ferries, which the minister referred to, did not give islanders one single Scottish ferry more. Although I believe that Ukrainian refugees should be housed in homes rather than on ferries, that situation proves that the Scottish Government can charter ferries at short notice. Ferries should have been chartered for Scotland’s islands long before now.

It is islanders, as well as every taxpayer in Scotland, who have been paying the cost of one of the biggest public infrastructure disasters in the past 20 years. We need to fully understand what has gone wrong and set out a plan for the future.

The “Disclosure” documentary that aired on BBC Scotland last night raises very serious questions of illegality in relation to the tender process for the Glen Sannox and vessel 802. One of those questions relates to the copy of the CalMac statement of operational and technical requirements that was provided to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd by the technical consultancy firm that produced it, which gave FMEL a huge advantage, with FMEL copying and pasting vast chunks of it into its bid.

Given the unfair advantage, we need to know why CMAL and CalMac allowed the bid to be marked highly in the tender scoring rather than immediately halting the tender process at that point or making scoring adjustments. That and many other serious questions must be thoroughly investigated without delay. They must be investigated independently because this Government simply cannot be trusted to investigate itself and its agencies. We need openness and transparency; we cannot afford secrecy and cover-up.

I support Audit Scotland’s efforts to get to the truth. If it chooses to investigate the matter further, it will need full access to all the systems, documents and emails that can help it in that endeavour. The Government should make clear that that will be the case. That has not happened to date—we have had a drip, drip of new emails and documents over the past few months. To date, no one has been held accountable, and the Government’s talk of collective responsibility is meaningless.

I believe that a public inquiry is inevitable but, even now, the Government still refuses to initiate such an inquiry. It should do so this week because the longer it delays, the more it will cost, the longer it will take to get to the truth and the more it will look like the Government has something further to hide.

There is a lot of blame to go round, but the one group of people who remain blameless throughout the fiasco are Ferguson’s workforce.

GMB Scotland’s Alex Logan and John McMunagle provided damning evidence in the “Disclosure” documentary. When concerns were raised, they were told:

“That’s the plan, that’s the drawing. You just build, you’re no here to think. You just build.”

It is clear that the workforce’s concerns were ignored time and time again. Perhaps if their views had been listened to at the beginning, we would not be in the mess that we are in now. That can never happen again. If we want to build a functioning ferry network and support Scottish shipbuilding jobs, we need to listen to them now.

I represent the lower Clyde and many of those workers. I stand behind all those who want to breathe new life into the industry. I again call for a national ferry building replacement programme to support the sector. Scottish Labour’s ambition is to modernise the CalMac fleet, with a fair share of new ferries being built on the lower Clyde. That will bring resilience to our ferry network and create new opportunities for the workforce.

As GMB Scotland has argued, the ferries do not need to be complex and use the dual-fuel ferry designs that Ferguson’s is building. Simpler contracts for simpler ferries do not need to go overseas to places such as Turkey; they can be done easily at Ferguson’s.

We need to get to the bottom of what went wrong to fix the problems in the long term. We need to create a pipeline of work and ensure that the lower Clyde gets its fair share of that work and that islanders get the ferries that they deserve.

I move amendment S6M-06071.1, to insert at end:

“; welcomes the commitment to not unbundle the ferry network, and to maintain the Clyde and Hebrides network under public control; believes that the unreliability and long-term unsustainability issues are contributing to the growing depopulation of the Scottish islands, and further believes that the future procurement of ferries must be used to support Scottish shipbuilding jobs and help restore the reputation of the Ferguson Marine yard.”

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

I congratulate the minister on getting through her whole speech without once mentioning the enormous elephant in the room: last night’s television documentary.

We were told that everything was published, that the Government was an open book, that there was nothing to hide, that it had investigated every single inch and every dark corner, that there was no corruption here and that critics were exaggerating.

Yet, last night, seven years on—five years after the ferries were supposed to be sailing—and numerous investigations later, the BBC presented quite devastating new information that it had discovered.

Ferguson’s had been given a document that no other bidder had received and it had been allowed to submit a new bid. No one else was allowed to do that. It had a confidential meeting with CMAL. No other bidder was offered that. It was given a pass on the builders guarantee. No other bidder was given that right.

Ferguson’s won the contract on a lower cost and a new lighter design with their new bid, using the document that nobody else had seen and with the advantage of a confidential meeting that no one else was offered.

We saw highlighted page after highlighted page of the bid that copied the document that no one else had seen. Jim McColl from Ferguson’s admitted that he had an advantage. That is the man who the SNP asked to take over Ferguson’s.

However, John Swinney was surprised about the BBC’s new evidence. At his deflecting best, and as if it were nothing to do with him, he said that he took the matter very seriously and, with a scowl, said that the matter would be investigated without delay. That is despite Scottish National Party ministers boasting to their conference that they had awarded the contract to Ferguson’s, despite Nicola Sturgeon turning up at the yard to tell the workers that they still had jobs, and despite ministers—even today—telling us that the yard would not have won the contract without them.

Join the dots. It is simple. The SNP is the reason for the scandal. It did not just happen to be in charge at the time; it caused the chaos. In any normal Government adopting international norms, ministers would resign without delay. Not this Government. According to it, it is everyone else’s fault; it asks how we could doubt ministers; and it says that they were trying their best.

Let us look at what the Government’s best means. It means that the ferries that were supposed to be built five years ago are still stuck in the docks. The best that the nationalists have to offer means wasting £150 million in the middle of a cost of living crisis. For islanders, that means 7,431 cancelled sailings so far this year. Hospital appointments have been missed, children are missing school, and shops and businesses are missing supplies.

Its best means that the reputation of the good workers at a Scottish shipyard has been trashed—so trashed that the yard did not even bid for the next ferry contract. That ferry contract has been awarded to a yard in Turkey. Its best means Audit Scotland stating that there was a

“lack of transparent decision making”.

Its best means a new investigation by Audit Scotland into the evidence that was presented by the BBC last night. Its best means launching a ferry with painted windows on the sides. If that is the Government’s best, please save us from its worst.

We cannot carry on like this any more. Whatever the outcome of the BBC investigation, everyone has seen enough. Taxpayers’ funding has been wasted.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Rennie, you are over your time. Could you please bring your remarks to a conclusion?

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The workers at the yard have been let down.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Rennie, please conclude your remarks. Thank you.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

T

he islanders have been taken—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Rennie, please take a seat.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Rennie! Mr Rennie, please take a seat.

Mr Rennie, I asked you to bring your remarks to a conclusion, which you appeared to ignore. I believe that that is showing discourtesy to the chair. We will move on, because time is short.

Members, I suggest that some respect and courtesy is shown to other members and to the chair.

We move on to the next speaker in the debate. I call Edward Mountain. He will have up to six minutes, in line with the preserved allocation of speaking times for the Scottish Conservatives in this debate.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am pleased to be able to rise to speak in this debate.

I will try to address the matter and put some flesh on the bones, because I spent a huge amount of time as convener of the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee in session 5 looking at the procurement of vessels 801 and 802. I also had the privilege—if you can call it that—of having seen most of the documents on which the BBC based last night’s programme.

I will start off by talking about the contract bid. Let us be clear about this: CalMac gave its requirements to CMAL. They were quite considerable requirements, running to some 400-odd pages. They were not all perfect; in fact, some of them were strange. For example, CalMac asked for passenger cabins on the ferries, when there were to be no passenger cabins on these boats—but there they were, in the document.

That document was then distilled down into a 350-page document that formed the basis of Ferguson’s bid. Interestingly, if you look through it—or if you were able to flick your eyes quickly over it as the BBC were showing it—you will see that single words had been changed. For example, the word “should” had been changed to “will”. CalMac said that it “should” have something, while Ferguson’s said that it “will” have it. That is not really very clever.

What is also not clever is duplicating the errors in the original contract. For example, it was put in that there would be passenger cabins on the ferry, although we know that they were never part of it. We also found out that, as part of the tender process, the boat that was put forward by Ferguson’s was overpriced and overweight.

What I do not understand—and what I will fail to understand until the day I die—is why no one picked that up. Why did no one see that the biggest part of the document, which was about what the ferry would consist of, was pure duplication? The Government is telling us that it did not know, but I am not sure that I can go with that.

Let us look at the builders refund guarantee. In December 2014, Ferguson’s said that it would be incapable of producing a builders refund guarantee. It gave two reasons for that: it was a new business, and it had not developed a relationship with a bank. It said to CMAL in December that it could not do it. That was in the middle of the process, and yet Ferguson’s was able to continue with the process and was eventually awarded the contract—with no refund guarantee.

What does it mean to have no refund guarantee? It means that if everything goes wrong, one person has to pick up the costs. There is only one person who can pick up the costs for that, and it is not CMAL—it is the Scottish Government. If you are telling me that the Scottish Government did not know that it was going to be the lender of last resort when it all went wrong, I, frankly, do not believe you.

I also point out that CMAL was particularly nervous about that, and I am sure that it mentioned the issue to the Government, because it suggested that, as Ferguson’s bought the parts, they would become the property of CMAL and would not belong to Ferguson’s at all. As CMAL paid during the contract, it was taking control of the parts. That is an odd thing to do, so nobody should tell me that CMAL did not warn the Scottish Government. I believe that it must have done.

Then we got to the stage of the retender. Quite simply, the boat that was put forward was the wrong size—it was too heavy and cost too much. What did CMAL do? It said, “Well, you mentioned another boat and said it was no good, but we think it’s an excellent boat and we’d like you to tender on the principle of that.” That is what happened, and that is the boat that ended up being designed. Are people telling me that the Scottish Government did not know that? I do not believe that.

We started off with 15 staged payments and ended up with 18. When there are more staged payments, it probably means that the business that is getting the payments is in trouble and is financially unreliable. What happened then? In March 2017, the yard was nearly bankrupt, so CMAL said that it would release only part of the staged payments to the yard and that, when the yard could prove that the contractors who were owed money had been paid, CMAL would give a bit more of the staged payments. CMAL was trying to deliver the money to the yard and to make sure that the contractors were paid so that the yard did not go into receivership. However, at the same time, Derek Mackay was round the back with a van shoving £15 million into Ferguson’s and then another £30 million, making a mockery of that.

The Government can claim that it did not understand that the yard was close to being bankrupt. I would ask why ministers did not know that, but ministers cannot claim that they did not know that their Government was dishing out unsecured loans to Ferguson Marine.

I am running out of time, but I will look briefly at Tim Hair, who cost us £2 million and was interviewed on the telephone. He came to the business with a lot of knowledge—he had been an engineer on a cruise liner for a couple of years and had never built a ship in his life. It is always said of turnaround directors that, for the first six months of a contract, they are part of the problem and, after that, they become the problem. That is what happened, and that is why we are seeing the delays to the ferries that we are seeing at the moment.

In summary, we understand that crucial financial requirements were waived to allow only one bidder. The tender specification documents were given to only one bidder. The chance to retender and reduce the price was given to only one bidder. The tender happened to be awarded to a loyal Monegasque supporter. Staged payments were adapted to allow money to go into the yard—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Mountain, you are 15 seconds over your time. Could you please bring your remarks to a close?

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

—and unsecured loans were agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

You are over your time by 15 seconds. Please bring your remarks to a conclusion.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will bring them to a conclusion.

I do not believe that the Government did not know what was going on. It knew fine well what was going on, and the Parliament has been misled, not only in the committees but in the chamber.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr Mountain. You are over your time.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

We need a public inquiry.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you. We move back to back-bench speeches of up to four minutes.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I welcome the publication of the project Neptune report and the fact that it sets out viable alternatives to the current structure. As I have said in previous debates, there are strong views in Argyll and Bute about the split roles of CMAL and CalMac. I need to be clear that this is about the structures and not the employees of either organisation. We need to recognise the important work that CalMac staff do, both onshore and aboard vessels, to make people’s journeys as safe and trouble-free as possible. I also suggest that among that group, as in communities, there is an untapped sea of valuable knowledge that could be used to improve the current situation.

The Minister for Transport has given a commitment to reform how we deliver ferry services, with the guiding principle that our island communities have to be part of that. We should also recognise that the Scottish Government’s investment in ferries has brought new routes, new vessels and upgraded harbour infrastructure as well as the roll-out of significantly reduced fares through the road equivalent tariff.

Rachael Hamilton (Conservative, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

Will the member take an intervention?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I am sorry, but I have a few things that I want to say.

I should say that, in Argyll and Bute, we have the MV Loch Frisa, the two new boats for Islay and the boats for the Dunoon-Gourock-Kilcreggan triangle and Mull, as well as investments in pier infrastructure.

I would like to share my thoughts on the current community consultation, specifically around winter timetables. It goes without saying that, every year, there will be a winter timetable to allow vessels to go for their annual overhauls. Those have been lengthened this year, which, I hope, will reduce the number of technical issues that were referenced earlier.

However, I struggle to understand why there appears to be a level of secrecy about what the timetables will look like. Communities are consulted and asked for their thoughts, and then there is silence. In June, I led a meeting on Mull at which I believed that there had been an agreement that the winter timetables would be shared and discussed with the ferry committee on the island, but that did not happen. Instead, last week, the minister was required to call a meeting to resolve the situation. A constituent who wrote to me said:

“I too wish that we had been a meaningful part of the consultation process from the beginning, and that the process had been transparent about the issues that we were facing.”

As I am sure other members do, I receive similar correspondence from all ferries groups in my constituency.

As I have said before, we need to recognise the importance of involving islanders in the decision-making process. It is those of us who live on islands who can provide useful intelligence about what our communities need. Some sailings are more important than others, and that should be taken into account when planning for disruption in order to maintain lifeline services.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the member take an intervention?

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I am sorry, but I would like to continue.

On Mr Bibby’s point, I am not sure that commercial vehicles would fit on a cruise liner. That is why we need local knowledge.

I welcome the minister’s statement that she has instructed Angus Campbell from the ferries community board to visit, take forward the next steps and engage with communities. Those engagements must be open and honest. Trust needs to be built, and all stakeholders need to engage. Folk need to understand the needs of other islanders and peninsula communities. We have a responsibility to support that, and the meeting with EY is a start.

In closing, I make two suggestions. First, when the minister reviews the structure of our ferry services, we need to look at including a review of the ferry routes that are operated by our local authorities and others. The Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee heard some evidence on that today. Secondly, whatever happens to the structure of our ferry services, the head office should be established truly within the community that it serves. We all recognise that the issue is not just transport performance; it is delivering the confidence that is needed to sustain our island populations.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I welcome this timely debate and the long-overdue publication of the project Neptune report. The further very serious revelations in the “Disclosure” programme that the Scottish Government did not stick to its own rules need to be responded to. A huge amount of public money has been squandered, and, of course, it is the taxpayer, islanders and people who rely on ferry services who are paying the price of the Scottish Government’s poor decision making and delays.

More than a decade ago, CalMac advised the Scottish Government that it would need to build a ferry every year just to stand still. That did not happen and, as a result, we have an ageing fleet that is increasingly unreliable. Sadly, the situation will only get worse. We need an emergency procurement plan from the Scottish Government. Despite repeated debates in the Parliament, a plan with an adequate ferry replacement programme has still not been presented.

I welcome that the Scottish Government has ruled out unbundling and privatisation, but it has not committed to an in-house permanent operation, and retendering still seems to be a possible route. I would be very grateful if the cabinet secretary would confirm whether that is the case, because decisions need to be made about tendering and the procurement of new ferries. Such issues were absent from the project Neptune report, and a clear direction of travel is needed urgently from the Scottish Government.

We know that our fleet is ageing. More than half of the 31 CalMac vessels are more than 25 years old, which is the age that ferries are expected to last.

As representatives in the Parliament, we know that it is the people who rely on those services and the communities in which they live that are paying the price every week.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Is it Labour’s position that the ferries should be entirely Government run, as they are now?

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

We do not believe that the problem is ownership, and we do not believe that a competitive process on lifeline services will be the solution to the challenges that we face. We believe that we are in this situation now not because of the ownership model but because of a failure to recognise over a lengthy period—indeed, since the creation of the Scottish Parliament—that it is necessary to repeatedly procure new vessels. The Parliament needs to learn that lesson, and we need to accept our responsibility to ensure that the vessels are procured.

CalMac has looked at more than 130 vessels around the world with a view to bringing them in second-hand. It is clear that that is not the solution. We need a procurement policy that builds in Scotland, develops our industrial capacity and delivers for communities that rely on ferry services.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. It is clear

how important ferries are to the communities that they serve and what they mean to the economy and general wellbeing of such communities.

First, we must acknowledge that, since 2007, £2 billion has been invested in service contracts, new vessels and infrastructure and that, in the current five-year period, a further £580 million has been committed.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am sorry; I have only four minutes and I will not have time.

The Scottish Government’s commitment to publish the islands connectivity plan by the end of 2022 is welcome. As we know, the islands connectivity plan will replace the current ferries plan and will consider aviation, ferries and fixed links. Jenni Minto has underlined that the involvement of local knowledge in discussions is incredibly important; the plan will enable us to consider other potential viable options in consultation with islanders.

I want to focus on a few key issues. First, the priority is the delivery of vessels on time, so that we can ensure reliability when it comes to lifeline services for our islands. It was good to hear the minister talk about extra tonnage as we move towards winter.

Secondly, as a few colleagues have touched on, the Scottish Government remains fully committed to supporting the Ferguson yard to secure a sustainable future, including a pipeline of future work.

Sue Webber (Conservative, Lothian)

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am sorry; I have only four minutes. I do not have time.

The Scottish Government continues to work closely with the yard to ensure that it becomes globally competitive.

Thirdly, the Scottish Government remains open to feedback regarding areas for improvement, which has been committed to.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am sorry; I have only four minutes.

On 8 September

, the Minister for Transport made a statement on the future of Scottish ferries and published the

project Neptune report. As was made clear in the statement, the project is a complex piece of work that will require further engagement with all stakeholders. We have talked about the importance of CalMac and CMAL staff in ensuring the most efficient and best value arrangement for future ferry governance structures.

Project Neptune will consider recommendations for improvements in the current arrangements for delivering ferry services in the west of Scotland. Much in the current arrangements delivers well, but there are clearly actions for the Scottish Government. The report also sets out longer-term options, on which no decision has been made other than on the options that have already been ruled out around privatisation or the unbundling of the CalMac network.

Finally, I want to touch on the issues that were raised in the “Disclosure” programme. The

accusations are serious and they are being taken seriously. As he stated this morning and in the programme last night,

the Deputy First Minister has concerns over them and, through the permanent secretary, has asked the Auditor General to investigate, which is the best way to investigate the issues and report to Parliament.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

No—I am sorry.

Tory calls for the Scottish Government to bring in the police are wholly inappropriate. That is a role for police alone; it is not for the Government to instruct.

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

No—I am sorry.

It has been a tough few years for some of our island communities due to adverse weather, Covid and, of course, technical and delayed orders.

Lessons need to be learned; our island communities need to be reassured and fully consulted; and we need a thriving shipbuilding industry.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr McLennan. [

Interruption

.] Excuse me, members. Could we have some quiet, and some decorum, in the chamber?

I call Ariane Burgess, to be followed by Emma Roddick. [

Interruption

.] If members wish to make a point of order, they are very welcome to do so. Failing that, I would like to move on to the next speaker, and I would like the next speaker to be extended the courtesy of members listening.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

I welcome the on-going Scottish Government engagement

with affected communities and stakeholders on the options that are contained in the project Neptune report, and I am keen to ensure that the Scottish Government continues to fully engage with all our island communities on those lifeline services.

The Scottish Greens have long called for a commitment on long-term investment, as well as a full fares review, as part of the islands connectivity plan, and I look forward to the publication of the Scottish ferries plan in December. It is vital that we listen to the voices of those people who are often excluded from such conversations, especially those of young people and women, so that we create a ferry service that is representative of the people it serves and that provides more opportunities for young people from islands and remote rural areas to thrive.

I very much hope that ministers recognise the concerns of island communities and the need to continue to work closely with them during periods of disruption. Accurate and timely communication is key to avoiding unnecessary impacts on island economies, of which ferries are the lifeblood.

As a Highlands and Islands MSP, I hear and feel the profound impact that the on-going ferry disruption has had on my constituents. It is vital to centre them in this debate and in all our plans to improve ferry services. Our islands are not museums; they are living, breathing communities that have ferries as their vital arteries. Every cancelled ferry trip for islanders is an appointment missed, a job unfinished or a shop unstocked.

Lifeline ferry services are essential to community life, so it is only reasonable that they should be governed by those same communities. As we have heard, local people understand the nuances and the connections that the ferries have with their communities, and they are best placed to support the replacement and upgrading of Scotland’s ferries.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

rose—

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention?

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

I see from looking at the clock that I will not be able to.

Earlier this year, I welcomed the plans to expand the current fleet to build in redundancy over the winter and to add capacity in the summer, but I continue to urge that those new vessels be low carbon, like the electric ferries that run on renewable energy in places such as Sweden and Denmark. We also need to decarbonise our existing vessels. Retrofitting an electric motor cuts pollution, emissions, noise and running costs.

To upgrade and decarbonise the fleet, we need a strategic long-term plan, but that remains challenging when CalMac must bid for the contract every six years, at great expense. It would help to end the competitive bidding process and to make interisland ferries part of a publicly owned Scottish national infrastructure.

I ask the Scottish Government to consider the importance of fixed links as another important part of islands transport infrastructure, particularly where such links could provide cost-effective long-term solutions to meet the needs of island communities such as Yell and Unst in Shetland, where there is strong support for that approach. That would make sense, given that Yell is now part of the carbon-neutral islands pilot.

It is crucial that we unlock the potential of our island communities and help them to reverse depopulation trends by delivering a resilient ferry network that will secure Scotland’s future as a thriving island nation.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Emma Roddick, who will be the final speaker in the open debate.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

As many in the chamber will know, I, like many of my constituents, rely on public transport to get around. Given that I am a representative of the Highlands and Islands, that transport frequently includes ferries. On a personal level, therefore, it is very important to me that ferry services get the right amount of attention and funding from the Scottish Government.

I understand the Tories holding the Government to account when there are shortcomings and asking questions about instances in which ferries have not run or when communication has not been what it ought to have been. However, the needs of islanders must be at the heart of any debate on ferries, whether that debate be about procurement, shipbuilding or managing the services. Exaggerations—and, in the case of recent claims about freight not being moved, outright lies—in the national news do not help islanders. It does not help anyone if my constituents—

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the member take an intervention?

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I will take one intervention, so it had better be a good one.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

I cannot promise that, but, as an islander, I probably have a bit of perspective.

One of the issues that we are facing is an Audit Scotland inquiry into the matter. Can the member confirm that Audit Scotland has no role in a criminal investigation, cannot compel witnesses and cannot interview individuals under caution, whereas a public inquiry or a police investigation can? Does she not recognise that what we need to get the information—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I think that that has been quite a lengthy intervention, Mr Halcro Johnston.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

—and to get the answers that have been held back so far is that investigation?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Emma Roddick, I think that you have enough information to respond to Mr Halcro Johnston’s point.

Emma Roddick (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

That was more of a speech.

I recognise that I have no place in criminal investigations—and neither does the Scottish Government—so I echo earlier comments by saying that it is not appropriate for me to claim that there is a need for one.

Going back to my point about exaggerations, I do not think that it helps anyone if my constituents hear such things in the news and think that there is no point in going to the shops, because there will be no food, when there is, or that they have to cancel an appointment, when they do not. It is unacceptable that, thanks to Conservative MSPs, that is exactly what is happening.

My advice to members is to approach this issue genuinely. [

Interruption

.] No, I am not giving way. There are genuine points to be made on behalf of the islanders whom members claim to speak for, rather than members focusing on whose head should roll and which synonym is being used to describe the situation today.

I, like any Highlands and Islands representative, deal regularly with casework on ferries, but in the past three months, more people have complained to me about misinformation—most of it coming from members on the Conservative benches—than have complained about last-minute changes to services.

Nobody—and I include the Scottish Government in this—is saying that there is not work to be done on ferry services. I would not stand here and claim that. The situation is not good enough; there are big issues and a lot of effort will be needed from a lot of people to improve things. However, I am reassured by the tone of the minister’s contribution this afternoon. To me, the quotes from the First Minister that were read out earlier are not the quotes of a person pretending that nothing has gone wrong either.

On the issue of scrutiny, this is far from the first debate on ferries that we have had in the chamber since I was elected last year, and there is also great committee interest in what happens next. Indeed, the documentary that many have mentioned also focused on an inquiry that was held by the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee in the previous session. It is insincere to claim that scrutiny is being avoided or is not occurring.

The aims of project Neptune, which are to improve services and support island economies, are bang on. The involvement of local communities, whose voices are the most important here, is the right way to go about this. My colleague Jenni Minto made some very good points on that and, like her, I will be watching carefully as more detail emerges.

The vast majority of ferries run on time, and listening to the Tories will not give an accurate picture of what the real issues are or allow us to move forward in the right way. The only way to do that is to scrutinise the report and the Scottish Government’s actions on their own merits.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

We move to closing speeches. I call Rhoda Grant to wind up on behalf of Scottish Labour.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

In the midst of this mess are people, as Katy Clark has pointed out: people who are trying to live their lives, work and run their businesses. It is almost impossible for them to do that with ferry services that are not working.

When the Lochboisdale ferry business impact group looked at the economic effect of losing the Lochboisdale to Mallaig ferry services for a short period and surveyed business regarding losses, it concluded that, in 14 days, there had been an estimated loss of £658,000 to the local economy, with no compensation. That is just what happened over 14 days, on a route that tends to be the first sacrificed when there is disruption.

We have to look only at the level of disruption on all the west coast routes to understand the economic damage that is being done to fragile island communities. Yesterday we debated depopulation—we need look no further to see the reasons for that.

We want these routes to remain in public ownership, as my colleague Neil Bibby has said. We believe that people should come before profit on lifeline services. However, that does not mean that we believe that this Government is doing a good job—far from it. The Scottish Government needs to confirm that there will be no more expensive tendering processes on the island routes. Years of failure on the part of the Scottish Government are coming home to roost, and the Government needs to find a workable solution now.

There has been a drip-drip of scandal about what went wrong with the Arran and Harris-Uist ferry procurement process. It beggars belief, yet we are no closer to understanding what happened. That procurement needs independent scrutiny of every detail of the process. Willie Rennie is right—no one is taking responsibility. At best, this is an incompetent Government; at worst, it is dishonest.

Our amendment talks about the workforce at Ferguson’s, who, sadly, have also been let down, as Neil Bibby has said. The Government must support the Ferguson’s workforce to rebuild its reputation and grow in confidence.

What is also unbelievable about all this is that the Government fines CalMac when services are cancelled and unreliable, although the Government itself is responsible. Maybe the Government should use some of those fines to compensate businesses and the people who face the cost of cancellations.

Katy Clark has said that we need urgent action, but the minister says that she cannot act because she needs to consult islanders. However, the minister’s Government failed to consult initially. We all know that islanders wanted smaller and faster boats, with more sailings and more flexibility in the fleet. They did not get that.

There must be an independent inquiry. We have little confidence that the Scottish Government will furnish Audit Scotland with the information that it needs to investigate. We know that in the past the Government has withheld information, making it impossible for Audit Scotland to do its job.

The winter is coming, when disruption is at its highest. Islanders cannot wait for action. The minister blames weather, but frankly the issue is not the weather, but the wrong ferry on the wrong route in the winter. This is Scotland, after all—we expect bad weather in the winter.

Islanders need good, reliable boats to serve communities, so that people can work, build businesses and get to family and health appointments. Islanders have suffered too long. This incompetent Government needs to act now.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

In my response to the urgent question from Graham Simpson yesterday, I acknowledged the significance of the issues that were raised in the BBC “Disclosure” programme. Having watched the programme last night, I reiterate my concerns about the issues that it raised. Graham Simpson asked me yesterday what the Government is doing about that, and I responded by indicating that we had taken the step of asking our permanent secretary to raise with Audit Scotland the issues that were put to us at the end of last week. I welcome the statement that the Auditor General for Scotland made yesterday afternoon that Audit Scotland will consider whether further scrutiny work is required. As I confirmed yesterday to Parliament—I hope that this reassures Mr Bibby—the Government, CMAL and Ferguson’s will fully engage with and support any work that Audit Scotland undertakes in that respect.

In relation to the procurement of vessels 801 and 802 and their delivery, I have accepted in Parliament and say again that I accept my share of collective responsibility for the fact that the vessels have not been delivered on time and on budget. I deeply regret that. I regret it for the impact on the reputation of Ferguson’s. I regret it for the impact on islanders, because—again, in relation to Mr Bibby’s points—had the ferries been delivered, we would have had two newer vessels at an earlier stage, providing resilience in the network, which would have given us the ability to have reserve vessels available, in the way that we used to have with the MV Isle of Arran. That would have given us capacity, particularly in the context of winter resilience.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Will the minister comment on the letter that the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee has received this afternoon, which indicates that Ferguson’s will delay vessel 802 for another quarter? What are the implications of that for the island communities that the vessel would have served?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am aware of the letter that Ferguson’s sent to the committee today. The Government will interrogate the report that has come from Ferguson’s, with appropriate due diligence, to determine our response to the points that it raises.

I stress—I will come on to this in a moment—that there is a necessity for sustained investment in the ferry network, and the Government has, of course, committed to that in other respects.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

We all know that delays cost money, but there is no mention of the extra cost in the letter to the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. Is the Government worried about that, and what will it do in response?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

That is precisely what I addressed in my response to Mr Rennie; we will carry out due diligence on the points that Ferguson’s raises with us and the update that has come forward. Obviously, I want to minimise any further cost to the public purse as a consequence.

Before I leave the question of the procurement of 801 and 802, I take the opportunity to place on record my deep personal appreciation for the contribution of Alex Logan and John McMunagle, who appeared in the “Disclosure Scotland” programme last night—two fine individuals whom I met many years ago, before Ferguson’s got into difficulties in 2014. Throughout that time, they have been faithful servants to Ferguson’s, and I thank them for their contribution and the generous welcome that they have always extended to me in my associations with them.

Over the past 10 years or so, the Government’s investment in ferries has increased from £140 million in 2013-14 to £315 million in this financial year.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention?

Liam Kerr (Conservative, North East Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention?

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am afraid that I have to watch my time as I have some ground to cover.

That indicates the significant investment that the Government has made in ferries. Commitments to new routes, such as Mallaig to Lochboisdale and Ardrossan to Campbeltown, and extra sailings to Colonsay and to Coll and Tiree have been delivered. A host of elements of the ferries plan have been implemented as we expanded services. We have procured 801 and 802 as well as the two Islay-class ferries that will be delivered in 2024-25. The network has been expanded and invested in.

In relation to performance, any ferry cancellation is inconvenient to islanders or to other members of the public, whatever their reasons for being in the islands. I point out that in 2021, only 1 per cent of services were cancelled because of mechanical issues; three times as many were cancelled because of weather conditions. There has also been disruption to the network because of Covid infections spreading.

I close on an interesting element of the debate that is emerging on project Neptune, on which the transport minister briefed Parliament three weeks ago. It was also raised by Katy Clark in her contribution, although I was not able to follow all the elements of what she referred to. She raised the importance of there being no unbundling, which the Government agrees with, and no privatisation, which the Government also agrees with, and I welcome the opportunity to place that on the record.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Deputy First Minister, I am afraid that you are over your time.

John Swinney (Scottish National Party, Perthshire North)

I am on my final sentence, Presiding Officer.

Graham Simpson, on the radio this morning and in his speech in the debate, made it clear that the Conservatives are interested in privatising the CalMac network. I put on the record that the Government will have nothing to do with that.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Jamie Greene to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. You have up to seven minutes, Mr Greene.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

It feels like 100 years since I gave my maiden speech in the Parliament in May 2016. As with most maiden speeches, as is tradition, I spoke about the great beauty of my area and the local issues that local people face on a daily basis.

Specifically, and unapologetically, I addressed the issue of connectivity and strong transport links to our communities, and that includes our island communities. Sadly, since I gave that speech, things have gone from bad to worse for our island communities. The situation is best summed up by the BBC programme that members have spoken of in the debate. The programme finally gave the wider public visibility of a situation that has played out in this building for many years. Our islanders are in a truly dire situation.

What I am talking about? Ferries—ferries, ferries, ferries, and then some more ferries. Did I mention ferries? I hope that I made that clear enough for Mr Wishart if he is tweeting about today’s proceedings. We make no apologies for raising the issue of ferries in our debating time, and it is frankly shameful that the Government does not do so more often.

I do not need to repeat the endless conversation about the murkiness around the awarding of the contracts to Ferguson’s, but I will note that Mr Swinney, the Deputy First Minister, was very keen to stress in the media that not a single Government minister put a single ounce of pressure on anyone in CMAL to award the contract to Ferguson’s. He made that claim and I hope that it is true, but if it transpires that the award process was irregular, improper or even illegal, the truth must emerge. It begs the following questions: who was driving all of that, and who was really in charge, calling the shots and making decisions? All that we have heard so far is endless buck passing, excuse making and finger pointing. Not a single head has rolled for any of this, and it is a scandal.

If the situation had involved a company in the private sector, the police would have been called yonks ago. It is unbelievable that no one has sought to get to the truth of the matter. Last night, the whole country heard about what ferry failures look like in real life—something that our islanders have known for a very long time.

Paul McLennan said that it has been a “tough few years” for our islands. Yes, it has. I am going to nominate him for the award of understatement of the year at tonight’s

Holyrood

awards. This is what tough looks like. Tough is businesses factoring in cash-flow problems and writing off the bottom line in their profit-and-loss statements because of ferry problems. Tough is the young student on Iona who lost up to a third of his schooling because of ferry problems. Tough is the ferry group that had to beg its community to fund an investigatory feasibility study for a vessel that they had to find themselves, only to be knocked back by Government agencies. That is what tough looks like for our island communities, and it comes as no surprise given that the average age of a CalMac vessel is 24 years. Is it any wonder that we have ended up here?

I have some statistics for Emma Roddick. On the Arran route, there were 373 delayed sailings in the whole of 2007, but by July of this year—half way through the year—that number had tripled. The number of technical faults—unrelated to weather—have gone up by 81 per cent in the past four years. All of that comes at a cost—a financial, operational and, as we hear too often, human cost.

The SNP’s 2007 manifesto promised a fairer deal for our islands. That promise was repeated in its 2011 manifesto, in which the SNP stated to voters, “Elect us and we will place the needs of our island communities at the centre of the Government’s agenda.” What a shallow promise that turned out to be.

We had the flagship blueprint for ferries in 2012—the “Scottish Ferry Services: Ferries Plan (2013-2022)”—in which Keith Brown proclaimed:

“We are fully committed to delivering first class sustainable ferry services to our communities, stimulating social and economic growth across Scotland.”

That plan included six new ferries, but the Government has not even delivered two. Ten years on from that plan, there is no new plan, or even a hint of one.

Although project Neptune is welcome, it focuses on governance structures and it is not a comprehensive ferry replacement and procurement plan. We are still missing hulls 801 and 802. They may eventually come into service, but they are only two vessels—just two—and 16 of CalMac’s vessels are more than 25 years old. We have learned today, as we have been speaking, that there is even more slippage in the programme, and significant risk, more delays and potentially more costs remain. In an ironic twist of fate, the reality, which many of us warned about, is that the Glen Sannox may only sail on one fuel type. The so-called liquid natural gas dual-fuel model—the green solution to marine transport and the cause of so many problems in the ferry-building process—might not even be used.

Let us go back to the 2012 plan from those who sit on the centre benches. The SNP promised that there would always be sufficient capacity on routes to meet demand. What a joke that is, because when one boat breaks down, the SNP takes one from another route. The SNP takes the boat from one island and gives it to another, pitting island against island. It is no wonder that the Arran Ferry Action Group described the situation as “the island wheel of misfortune”. That group, along with many others, is genuinely worried about the forthcoming winter. There is a disgraceful inevitability about this: they are staring down the barrel of an ageing fleet—a fleet that is breaking down and letting them down.

Last winter, entire routes were cancelled, travellers were stranded, people genuinely struggled for supplies and medical appointments were missed. The misery went on and on, and this year’s CalMac winter timetable is late, too. It is that lack of consultation and listening that has got us to where we are today.

We are listening to communities and they are saying what a disastrous mess the Government has made of the ferry network. The Government should be ashamed. Minister, do not get me wrong—[

Interruption.

]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Greene, please resume your seat for a second. Members, could I please ask that there not be shouting across the chamber?

Mr Greene, please continue.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

The current transport minister is the fifth such minister in as many years, and of course she was not responsible for these decisions. However, she must be accountable for, and take responsibility for, the actions of her Government, because no one else seems to be.

The lads in the Port Glasgow yard summed it up nicely. On the telly last night, they said to the nation, “It’s never been about the workforce; it’s all about the leadership.” I agree, and that starts with political leadership, but today we have seen very little of that—no leadership and no accountability. That has to change, and it has to change now.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes the debate on Scottish Government handling of ferry contracts. I will allow a brief pause to allow front-bench teams to change position.

National Health Service Waiting Times

Alison Johnstone (Presiding Officer, Lothian)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-06073, i

n the name of Sandesh Gulhane, on addressing NHS waiting times.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

One year ago, on 22 September, we debated a motion on taking action on a crisis in the Scottish Ambulance Service and the worst accident and emergency waiting times on record. Given the reality of staffing levels on the ground, I implored the cabinet secretary back then to let our hard-working national health service staff and the Scottish people know what to expect as winter approached.

Here we are again, still spiralling out of control. In the week ending 19 September 2021, 74.4 per cent of patients at A and E were seen within four hours; a year later, last week, that figure had dropped to 63.5 per cent—the worst on record.

Elsewhere in the system, cancer waiting times are also at their worst on record, with the number of people meeting the target going from 84 per cent in June last year to 76 per cent now. So much under the Scottish National Party Government’s control is going from bad to worse. Vulnerable children are unable to access mental health services, with over a quarter not being seen by a specialist within 18 weeks. Waiting times for routine treatment are mounting—over 10,000 Scots have been waiting for two years for treatment, which is an eight-fold increase on last year. Hospital delayed discharges are at a record high. Ambulance waiting times of over two hours have increased nine-fold in four years and yet the cabinet secretary was patting himself on the back just yesterday.

We understand that the pandemic has had a significant impact on the delivery of health services, but the fact is that the situation has been getting worse in 2022, not better, despite the pandemic receding. Many issues also predate the pandemic, such as staff shortages which are the result of successive years of poor SNP workforce planning.

One year on from our September 2021 debate, our amazing nurses, doctors, allied healthcare professionals and paramedics remain overworked and undervalued, and are at breaking point. Yet, one year on, the same SNP minister remains in charge, clinging on to his flimsy NHS recovery plan. The stats do not lie. This is a record-breaking cabinet secretary—SNP delivery personified. However, what does the cabinet secretary do when faced with hard facts? He might selectively compare stats from health services elsewhere to provide what the First Minister calls “context” or he might pass the buck and imply that shattered front-line workers are to blame for A and E waiting times, seriously undermining staff morale. I am afraid that any backtracking statement that is sent out later is akin to sticking a Band-aid on an unwashed, gaping wound. Patients who need treatment in Scotland do not want context; they want competence. However, if the SNP Government insists on context, how about this: nearly 70 per cent of nurses in Scotland feel that patient care was compromised on their last shift due to staffing levels.

Yesterday evening, I spoke to Norrie. Norrie’s mother is 96 and has pneumonia. Norrie’s mum was taken to an A and E department in an Ayrshire hospital last Thursday at 8 o’clock. The department was incredibly busy—too busy. Still, Norrie’s mum was triaged within 90 minutes. The staff were clearly doing their very best but, let us face it, they cannot conjure up more nurses or hospital beds, and there were no spare beds—none at all. Norrie’s mum spent 40 hours on a trolley in a busy corridor. She was cold and was beside automatic doors that opened and closed every couple of minutes. She was frightened and crying. She was breathless and disorientated, and all alone, because her family were not allowed to be with her. On Saturday afternoon, 40 hours after she first presented, she was moved to the clinical assessment unit where she is now. She is beginning to feel a bit better.

Can any of us imagine how we would feel if that had happened to our own granny or mum? Norrie really knows about healthcare. He has been a general practitioner for 40 years, and he cannot accept that that is what awaits his patients and his family. However, Norrie says that, sadly, his mum’s experience is not an exception. He says that it is not the fault of front-line staff, who go above and beyond.

Health is a devolved matter. The SNP has been in government for 15 years. The people of Scotland deserve to have dignity and respect while they are vulnerable. Mindful of last Thursday’s First Minister’s questions, I asked Norrie whether it gave him a measure of comfort to know that Scotland’s waiting times were better than elsewhere. His response—well, I cannot repeat the word, so let us just say that comparisons like that are meaningless and unhelpful for the people of Scotland who are suffering.

Norrie has a question for the cabinet secretary and the First Minister. He asks: do they agree that in Scotland today it is morally abhorrent for his 96-year-old mother to lie on a trolley in a cold corridor for 40 hours?

Kaukab Stewart (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Kelvin)

Would the member welcome the fact that there has been an immediate improvement in waiting times since the data was published?

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

The SNP is patting itself on the back because there has been a 2.5 per cent improvement—2.5 per cent was the improvement in A and E waiting times. That is what the member wants to stand up and proudly declare, when the figure has come down from 74 per cent. The target is 95 per cent. My word! That is disgraceful.

Our cabinet secretary is the fifth SNP minister to be in charge of health. There has been a straight line of SNP MSPs since Nicola Sturgeon held the position from May 2007. After years of SNP mismanagement, dedicated NHS staff are burning out. Workforce planning is so poor that nursing vacancies are up by 25 per cent in a year, and they now stand at over 6,000. In the past year, around 15,000 workers left the NHS, which is the highest number in a decade. The root cause of many of the issues with A and E and routine treatment lies in the lack of flow of patients through hospitals.

The Presiding Officer

The member must conclude.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

There is a lack of beds in NHS Scotland. There are 716 fewer than there were at the peak in 2014-15. Urgent action is required. The NHS recovery plan is failing to have a demonstrably positive effect on waiting times. It is not working. Let us admit that and rewrite the plan ahead of this winter.

I declare my entry in the register of members’ interests, as I am a practising NHS doctor.

I move,

That the Parliament is concerned by the length and scale of NHS waiting times; notes that A&E, Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS), cancer and routine treatment waiting times are well short of where they need to be; recognises that the root cause of this problem is a lack of beds in NHS hospitals; regrets, therefore, that the Scottish Government is focussed more on structural reform than building greater capacity into the social care system; notes that the NHS Recovery Plan is failing to have a demonstrably positive impact on waiting times, and calls, therefore, on the Scottish Government to rewrite its NHS Recovery Plan ahead of this winter.

Humza Yousaf (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Pollok)

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the challenges that our health service continues to face and to speak to elements of the recovery that we are seeing across health and social care.

Before getting into the detail, I want to thank our NHS front-line staff and other social care staff for the incredible efforts that they make day in and day out. I see them on a more than weekly basis in the job that I am in and am able to thank many of them personally, but I take this opportunity to say to those who I do not get to see that the Government and I are eternally grateful for their efforts.

From the outset, I say that this debate can hope to be constructive only if the Opposition does not deny the reality of the context in which we operate. Looking at Sandesh Gulhane’s motion, I see that there is not one mention of the pandemic or Covid—not one mention of the biggest shock that our NHS has ever faced in its 74-year existence. To deny the severe impacts that the pandemic has had and continues to have on our health systems is, frankly, to deny reality.