Scottish Parliament, 11 May 2022

327 contributions from 52 members. The official report.

Justice and Veterans

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio question time, and we start with justice and veterans

. If a member wishes to ask a

supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button or enter R in the chat function during the relevant question. I make the usual plea for succinct questions, and answers to match.

Scottish Solicitors Bar Association (Boycott)

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what impact the boycott announced by the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association will have on the number of outstanding trials in Scotland. (S6O-01054)

The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Regan)

Section 1 of the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018, which criminalises coercive and controlling behaviour, has been in operation for more than three years. Last year, section 1 cases accounted for 5 per cent of all domestic abuse cases. The latest data from the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service shows that accused in recent DASA cases have been represented using current capacity of the Public Defence Solicitors Office and private providers who continue to work on such cases.

As has been the situation throughout, we still aim to seek an appropriate and affordable resolution to the issue in the interests of vulnerable victims and those accused of such crimes, who are barred from defending themselves.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I thank the minister for that rather strange answer, in which she appeared to say that there will be no impact. Perhaps she can clarify that and give a clearer response to this question.

Solicitors are clearly saying that they have had enough. Does the minister agree with the Law Society of Scotland that a long-term legal aid fee review needs to be established as soon as possible? In the meantime, what is she doing to support the victims of crime who will be anxious about the lengthy delays that they are set to face as a result of the action being taken?

Ash Regan

Not much time has elapsed since the start of the action that some solicitors are taking on DASA cases. I am therefore sure that members will accept that, at this point in time, it is quite difficult to predict what impacts, if any, it will have.

The Scottish Government has taken a large number of actions. Most recently, we set up a fee package that was targeted specifically at areas of concern that the profession had raised with us. We also made an additional offer of an across-the-board fee rate rise to legal aid rates of 5 per cent, but that has not been accepted so far.

We are working at pace to put in place measures to address any shortfall and, as I outlined to the member, there does not seem to be a shortfall at the moment, but we will continue to monitor the situation to make sure that we address any shortfall that occurs in the availability of solicitors.

We are committed to continuing engagement to seek a resolution with the profession. However, I remind members that the profession’s demand is for an increase of 50 per cent in addition to the increases that the Scottish Government has already made, which amount to a significant investment of more than £20 million in the past few years. That would add an increase of about £60 million per year to the legal aid budget and, unfortunately, that is not affordable.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I will take a brief supplementary from Jackie Dunbar.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

What has the Scottish Government done to increase the capacity and capability of the legal aid profession?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Again, as briefly as possible, minister.

Ash Regan

One of the main things that we have done to address the issues that the member has raised is provide £9 million of grant funding during Covid. Some of that money was specifically for business resilience and to help businesses adapt to the situation in which they found themselves, so that they could invest to find solutions to any issues that they might have.

The profession has approached us on capacity. To help to resolve that situation, we set up and invested £1 million in a fund for trainees that is co-run with the Law Society of Scotland. More than 40 trainees are in that system, and 75 per cent of them are women, because we recognise that gender was a potential issue. That is another way in which we have attempted to resolve the issues that the profession has raised.

Custodial Sentences (16 and 17-Year-Olds)

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Government when its policy on ending custodial sentences for 16 and 17-year-olds will be implemented. (S6O-01055)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The Scottish Government is committed to reducing and, ultimately, ending the placement of under-18s in young offenders institutions. In line with our commitment to keeping the Promise, we aim to deliver that by the end of 2024.

Resourcing and legislative reform will be needed first, but we will move forward without delay. A consultation on legislative proposals was published on 30 March, and views are invited until 22 June. Sentencing decisions will, of course, remain with the independent courts. When 16 and 17-year-olds require to be deprived of their liberty, they should be placed in age-appropriate settings.

Meghan Gallacher (Conservative, Central Scotland)

In recent years in Scotland, there have been multiple instances of 16 and 17-year-old murderers. Their place should absolutely be in jail. Will the cabinet secretary confirm that 16 and 17-year-old killers, rapists and other serious offenders will still go to prison once the proposed change has been implemented?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

It is obvious from my initial answer that we agree with the idea that people who commit such serious offences should be deprived of their liberty and that public safety should come first, but we also believe that they should be in age-appropriate settings.

Karen Adam (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

The Conservative United Kingdom Government’s own analysis shows that prisoners who receive custodial sentences of less than 12 months without supervision on release are associated with higher levels of reoffending than prisoners who receive sentences that are to be served in the community. Instead of trying to appear tough on crime, we need policy that actually works.

With that in mind, does the cabinet secretary agree that community sentences and an evidence-based approach to justice will better serve victims of crime, by working to reduce offending?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I absolutely agree. The Conservatives are not interested in reducing crime and the number of victims in society. If they were, they would support community justice alternatives, which, as Karen Adam said, drive down reconvictions. We know from national statistics that individuals who are released from a custodial sentence of 12 months or less are reconvicted about twice as often as those who are given a community payback order.

We are focused on what works. Our firm focus is on prevention, effective community interventions and rehabilitation in communities and custody, which helps to reduce victimisation. Although no sentence—whether it is a custodial or a community sentence—can eliminate the possibility of individuals reoffending, reconvictions and overall crime in Scotland are at historically low levels.

Convicted and Incarcerated Persons who Own and Control Property

Willie Coffey (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley)

3. To ask the Scottish Government whether it is considering any reforms to the justice system in relation to convicted and incarcerated persons who own and control property in Scotland. (S6O-01056)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

As I know that the member knows, it is not appropriate for the Scottish Government to comment on individual cases, but I assure him that Scots law prevents someone who has unlawfully killed another person from inheriting that person’s estate.

Although a murderer cannot inherit from their victim’s estate, they can assume the role of executor. The function of the executor is to represent the deceased and is fiduciary in nature, which means that there is an ethical relationship of trust. Until such time as the estate is distributed, they have control of the deceased person’s property.

Willie Coffey (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley)

I raise the disturbing local issue whereby a convicted and incarcerated murderer retains ownership and control of a house that is falling into disrepair, with no maintenance being carried out and access being denied to family members; they are also exempt from paying any council tax.

Will the cabinet secretary consider what might be done to resolve such a problem? Neighbours are having to live beside such a mess and immediate family members cannot resolve what is a humiliating and embarrassing situation for them.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I have said that I cannot comment on individual cases, but I know the case to which the member refers. The Scottish Government has previously met the family and heard about the personal toll that the lack of closure has had on them. I sympathise with the family and the situation that they find themselves in.

It is important to make it clear that, under Scots law, someone who has unlawfully killed another person cannot inherit from the estate. However, they can—as in this case—assume the role of executor. The overarching role of an executor is to distribute the estate to those persons who are entitled to it, not to keep property indefinitely.

When the Scottish Government consulted on whether a convicted murderer should continue to be able to assume the office of executor, there was some support for reforming the law. We continue to keep the matter under consideration, with a view to taking forward such a reform. I will be happy to take the matter away and consider it further. Perhaps my colleague the Minister for Community Safety, who has responsibility for civil law, can agree to meet the member to provide him with further information about what might be done in future to resolve such situations.

Recorded Crime

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the latest recorded crime statistics. (S6O-01057)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The statistics show that recorded crime remains at one of the lowest levels since 1974 and is down 41 per cent since 2006-07, with non-sexual violent crime down 36 per cent over the same period and homicides at their lowest level since 1976.

Incidentally, last November, the member retweeted an accusation that I had misled this Parliament on homicides. I hope that he will take the opportunity today to either repeat that accusation or to apologise for it, because it is entirely false.

The Scottish crime and justice survey shows that adults in Scotland were less likely to experience crime in 2019-20 than those living in England and Wales. Although that progress is very encouraging, the levels of crime over recent years highlight that there is more to be done. We have increased the policing budget, with a total in 2022-23 of almost £1.4 billion.

Craig Hoy (Conservative, South Scotland)

Police officers work tirelessly to keep our communities safe, but in East Lothian, reports of antisocial behaviour have skyrocketed. Residents in Prestonpans have reported cars damaged and homes egged, and youth-related antisocial behaviour is a growing concern for residents of Haddington town centre. With data revealing that the number of bobbies on the beat across Scotland has plunged to its lowest level since 2008, will the minister join me in calling for more community police in East Lothian?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

First, members will note that Craig Hoy rejected the idea of either confirming or apologising for the allegation that he made last November.

On the policing situation, of course we have—[

Interruption

.] The Tories get very animated when they hear this. We have in Scotland substantially more police officers than England and Wales have, and they are paid substantially more here—a constable starting in the police force is paid around £5,000 more in Scotland.

We know what the Tories do when they have the chance to set levels of policing: it is substantially less than what the Scottish National Party does. We will continue to invest in police services.

I note, in passing, that the Conservatives made no amendment to our budget to ask for increased funding for police costs. They made no amendment when they had the chance to do so, so they must, despite what they say today, be very pleased about the higher levels of policing here in Scotland, under the Scottish National Party.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I encourage members to ask their questions and ministers to respond to the questions. There should be no sedentary interventions, nor should members on the front bench respond to sedentary interventions.

Foysol Choudhury (Labour, Lothian)

In the latest available statistics for reconviction rates, although the baseline rate is 28.3 per cent, the reconviction rate for those with a custodial sentence is struggling at 43.8 per cent. What is the Scottish Government doing to ensure that prison gates are not revolving doors?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

By contrast, that is a fair question. We acknowledge the point—[

Interruption

.] Again, we get interventions from a sedentary position. It is the case that short sentences are associated with increased reconviction levels, as the member says. We are looking to increase the community disposals that can be used in the judicial system because, as I said in my answer to a previous question, they have lower reconviction rates.

I am sure that the member shares with me the ultimate aim of reducing the number of crimes and, therefore, the number of victims in Scotland. He makes a fair point, and I hope that he will agree that that is the Government’s direction of travel.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question 5 has not been lodged.

Poppyscotland (Support for Veterans)

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

6. To ask the Scottish Government when it last corresponded with Poppyscotland regarding support for veterans. (S6O-01059)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I last met Poppyscotland to discuss veterans issues on 29 September 2021. Since then, my officials have engaged with it regularly on a range of topics including the poppy appeal, the festival of remembrance, preparations for events to mark the 40th anniversary of the Falklands war, promotion of the veterans question in the 2022 census and veterans’ employment and health.

The most recent engagement by Scottish Government officials came last month, when Poppyscotland was invited to comment on the current draft of our upcoming refresh of the veterans strategy action plan.

Sandesh Gulhane (Conservative, Glasgow)

On 20 April, in response to my question on veterans’ mental health and wellbeing, the minister stated that the United Kingdom Government should fund the commissioner in Scotland, based on comparison with the commissioner in Wales. However, Poppyscotland highlighted to me that the minister neglected to mention that the UK-funded Welsh commissioner is limited to commenting on areas that are reserved to the UK Government.

As the Scottish veterans commissioner was set up and is funded by the Scottish Government, and reports only to the Scottish ministers on devolved areas, why does the minister believe that the commissioner in Scotland should now be funded by the UK Government? Does he believe that the UK Government should be involved in the appointment to and operation of that role, if it is to fund it?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I do not agree with that. I simply drew to the member’s attention the fact that different rules are being applied by the UK Government in relation to Wales and Scotland.

The UK Government does not fund the commissioner in Scotland; we set up the post ourselves and pay for it through funds in Scotland, none of which is associated with any part of the Barnett formula.

This Government does a great deal of work on veterans and has done so for many years, and we have dragged the UK Government with us to do more. We think that the work that we do on veterans should be recognised in the funding formula.

I would have thought that the member would agree that we should have more funding for veterans in Scotland, and that the UK Government should stand behind that and help our veterans wherever it is possible to do so.

Fulton MacGregor (Scottish National Party, Coatbridge and Chryston)

In light of the successful Poppyscotland and Royal British Legion campaign to include a new question on service status in the census, will the cabinet secretary take this opportunity to highlight the importance of completing the census, so that we can better understand our veterans’ needs?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

It is good to have that supplementary question, which relates to the substantive question about Poppyscotland. As I said in our news release with Poppyscotland back in March, I strongly encourage all veterans in Scotland who have not already done so to take the opportunity to complete the census, including the question on previous service in the armed forces, before the extended deadline of the end of May. That will help us to develop a more complete picture than we have ever had of our veterans population. It will give

us an insight into the ages and circumstances of veterans throughout Scotland that will be vital as we continue to improve the provision and targeting of support for armed services personnel and their families.

Fatal Accident Inquiries (Deaths in Custody)

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

7. Presiding Officer, I apologise for not being present at the beginning of portfolio question time. I was late returning from a committee visit.

To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to improve the effectiveness of fatal accident inquiries into deaths in custody. (S6O-01060)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

As the member knows, the Lord Advocate is constitutionally responsible for the investigation of deaths.

The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service has put in place many improvements to systems and processes to ensure that all deaths are investigated thoroughly and within a reasonable timescale. Funding for the overall COPFS budget has been increased in recent years to support the progress of such investigations.

A specialist investigation team will be established during 2022, which will investigate all deaths that occur in legal custody.

Separately, the Scottish Government has accepted in principle the recommendations of the “Independent Review of the Response to Deaths in Prison Custody”. External chair Gill Imery has been appointed to oversee recommendation implementation, including that of the key recommendation of an independent investigation into every death in custody. That will not replace the fatal accident inquiry or any of the current inquiry processes; it will complement the independent investigation of COPFS into the circumstances of the death.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

The public inquiry into the death of Sheku Bayoh has commenced, more than seven years after his death in custody. An inquiry would probably not have happened if his family had not fought for it.

Research suggests that only 31 per cent of families are represented at fatal accident inquiries. Will the Scottish Government review the rules, particularly the legal aid rules, to do with representation of families where there has been a death in custody?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The member’s question touches on areas that would best be responded to by the Lord Advocate, although it also raises questions for the Scottish Government.

The taxpayer funds the very substantial legal costs of public inquiries, which, as I am sure that the member is aware, can last for many years and involve senior legal representatives. For my part, I am happy to look at the issue; I will do so in conjunction with the Lord Advocate.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

The response to a freedom of information request that I made to the Crown Office showed that the average time taken to complete an FAI in Scotland is about three years. Last year, more than five FAIs had taken more than five years; the longest took more than 4,000 days.

The cabinet secretary can imagine the pain that that causes the families of victims after there has been a tragic death. Has he had a proper, sensible and robust conversation with the Crown Office about those elongated timescales? Can the cabinet secretary confirm that the FAI into the tragic deaths of John Yuill and Lamara Bell will commence this year, as was promised?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

On the latter point, I think that Jamie Greene will have had that undertaking from the Lord Advocate; it is right that she should respond to that point.

We—the law officers, the Minister for Community Safety and I—have had not just one conversation but a number of conversations on the issue. I accept the member’s point that, when things take a very long time, that can have an effect on not just victims’ families but the quality of evidence. He will be aware of recent efforts to reduce the timescales. The member will also be aware of the increasingly specialist nature of some inquiries. For example, the inquiry into the helicopter crash in the North Sea required all sorts of expertise so that it could be done properly—and it is important that such things are done properly.

To conclude, during the two reporting years from April 2020 to March 2022, despite the effects of the pandemic, including restricted court availability, the Crown Office successfully concluded 53 FAIs relating to deaths in custody, and 31 of those related to deaths that occurred in 2019 or 2020.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

What developments have been made following the publication of the

“Independent Review of the Response to Deaths in Prison Custody”

?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

As briefly as possible, cabinet secretary.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

We are committed to making improvements while providing more prompt answers. In February, I held a round-table discussion with the inspector of prisons, the review co-chairs and stakeholders to ensure that the review recommendations are implemented swiftly.

I hope that the member takes some comfort from the fact that we have already appointed Gill Imery as external chair to oversee progress against the recommendations. A range of progress is under way, including a round-table discussion with UK and Irish counterparts to learn lessons and the instigation of a working group of key agencies and the Scottish Government.

Veterans (Mental Health Needs)

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the veterans secretary has had with the minister for mental wellbeing regarding any urgent action that can be taken to meet the mental health needs of veterans. (S6O-01061)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The Minister for Mental Wellbeing and Social Care and I are committed to ensuring that veterans can access appropriate mental health support wherever they live in Scotland. At the debate in March, we jointly supported the principles in the veteran mental health and wellbeing action plan, which was published in December 2021. As a first step, we are providing £50,000 to the see me campaign to tackle the stigma that veterans have told us that they experience.

We have appointed Dr Charles Winstanley to establish a veteran-led implementation board to take the plan forward, and we continue to fund Combat Stress and Veterans First Point to provide veteran mental health services during implementation.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Labour, Glasgow)

The Scottish veterans commissioner recently raised concerns that the mental health needs of our ex-servicemen and women are being forgotten about as the national health service recovers from the Covid pandemic. In the chamber on 1 March, before the publication of the commissioner’s report, “Positive Futures: Getting Transition Right in Scotland—Employment, Skills & Learning”, the cabinet secretary endorsed and committed to the 38 recommendations that are set out in the veterans mental health plan. Will the cabinet secretary outline what progress is being made towards implementing

the recommendations? How does the Government respond to the concerns that have been raised by the veterans commissioner?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I mentioned some of the other recommendations in my initial answer, and I am happy to write to the member with a full account of the progress that we have made on them so far.

On the point that the member raises about what we are doing, £1.4 million has gone to Combat Stress and £666,000 has gone to Veterans First Point to provide services in 2023; in turn, that funding has been matched by six local health boards.

Through the veterans fund, we also fund organisations that help veterans, such as HorseBack UK and a number of others. We treat the issue very seriously, and we are putting in and have put in substantial sums of money to address it. The action plan that has been mentioned, and on which I will write to the member, details the further progress that we intend to make.

Audrey Nicoll (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South and North Kincardine)

What has been the impact on the sector of the £2 million funding boost that was announced in March for services that provide mental health support for veterans?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The question allows me to say that the funding has allowed Veterans First Point and Combat Stress—this will be of interest to Pam Duncan-Glancy, as well—

to take on two specialist veteran mental health service providers to continue to provide advice and support to veterans across Scotland. The funding is also being used to commission the see me campaign to design and implement a campaign to address stigma. It is appalling that veterans should suffer stigma in this day and age, but we will address the issue, which has been experienced by veterans and their families.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio question time on justice and veterans. I thank colleagues and the ministerial team for allowing us to get through all the questions.

Finance and the Economy

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The second portfolio is finance and the economy. Any members who wish to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. I ask for succinct questions and answers.

Food Prices (Impact of Brexit-related Trade Barriers)

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on a recent report by the London School of Economics Centre for Economic Performance that states that Brexit-related trade barriers have resulted in a 6 per cent increase in United Kingdom food prices. (S6O-01062)

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

The Tory cost of living crisis has its roots in the Tories’ disastrous Brexit policies. The Scottish Government, alongside many others, has repeatedly warned that Brexit would be damaging to business and trade, and we see that play out right now. The UK Government holds levers to address the cost of living crisis but refuses to use them. We are using all the powers and resources that we have to tackle poverty and help people who are struggling to make ends meet.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

It is clear that Brexit has made the cost of living crisis worse for the UK and Scotland. Despite Scotland voting against Brexit, we are still living with the consequences of the Tory UK Government’s hard Brexit deal. Does the cabinet secretary agree that the LSE report clearly shows how Scotland faces a cost of living with Westminster crisis?

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

The member is right: it is the Tories’ cost of living crisis, the Tories’ Brexit and the Tories’ failure to lift a finger right now to help anybody in Scotland who is contending with the challenges of rising inflation and costs. We repeatedly warned that Brexit would be damaging. Scottish businesses have experienced record increases in input prices in 2022, with firms citing Brexit as a contributing factor, as highlighted by S&P Global statistics. That has fed through to the 17th monthly rise in prices charged by businesses. That damage to trade reflects the reckless approach that the UK Government has taken.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The minister is right: there is no doubt that the Conservatives’ policies, including Brexit, have contributed to rising food prices and the cost of living crisis. It is important that we learn the lessons of Brexit. Is the minister aware of any research on the potential impact on food prices of Scottish independence-related trade barriers?

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

Trust the Liberal Democrats to defend the Conservatives on the challenges that Scots are facing right now when it comes to the cost of living and the result of Brexit. We know fine well that, if the powers to combat the cost of living challenges were in the hands of the Scottish Government, we would take a very different approach.

Structural Funding Replacement

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

2. To ask the Scottish Government what its latest engagement has been with the United Kingdom Government regarding programmes to deliver a replacement for European Union structural funding. (S6O-01063)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Since last month’s launch of the UK shared prosperity fund—which confirmed that the UK Government has reneged on its promise that EU funding would be replaced so that Scotland would not lose out financially from Brexit, and its promise that devolution and the Scottish Parliament would be respected and strengthened post Brexit—the UK Government has made no effort to make contact or engage with the Scottish Government at either ministerial or official level on the fund.

Jackie Dunbar (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Donside)

The Scottish Government previously made decisions about how best to spend EU structural funds based on local priorities. Now, a UK Tory Government, which Scotland did not vote for, is cutting Scotland’s elected Government out of the decision-making process. Does the minister agree that that Tory UK Government poses a fundamental threat to devolution?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

Yes, I do. The shared prosperity fund exemplifies the UK Government’s encroachment into devolved policy areas. The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, which was passed despite the devolved Administrations not consenting, enables spending in devolved policy areas with no recourse for the Scottish Government. That raises significant constitutional questions and undermines the role of the Scottish Parliament.

The lack of decision making for the Scottish Government in the governance of the fund completely undermines devolution. The terms of reference for a joint ministerial board make it explicit that UK ministers will always have the final say. The devolved Governments have been invited to join the board as advisers. However, we were not elected to advise Westminster; we were elected to lead, make decisions and take responsibility for Scotland’s future wellbeing.

The UK Government should fully devolve control of the fund to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government and immediately increase its value to £549 million, which reflects the amount needed to replace EU structural funding.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Question 3 was not lodged.

East Kilbride (Economic Support)

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

4. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to support the economy in East Kilbride. (S6O-01065)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The Scottish Government is supporting the economy in East Kilbride in a number of ways, not least through its inclusion in the Glasgow city region deal, which the Scottish Government will fund with £500 million over 20 years. It is delivering a programme of investment to stimulate economic growth and create jobs.

Projects in East Kilbride include the £62 million Stewartfield Way project and the £25.7 million Greenhills Road project. East Kilbride has also been identified as one of the four community growth areas in the deal.

Furthermore, we will support retail stakeholders within East Kilbride to respond to the work that is emerging from the city centre recovery task force and, with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, to the town centre action plan review. That includes promoting town and city centres as places to live and as retail and cultural destinations, and repurposing vacant units.

Collette Stevenson (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

Last Friday marked East Kilbride’s 75th anniversary as Scotland’s first new town, and I want that to create a lasting legacy for the town and its economy.

The minister may know that Mage Control Systems was recently accredited as East Kilbride’s first living hours employer. Does the minister agree that good employment practices are essential to delivering a sustainable economy in East Kilbride and across Scotland? Can he outline the schemes that are available for employers, and how they can apply for those accreditations?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

I agree whole-heartedly that good employment practices are essential for delivering a sustainable economy. That is why fair work is one of the pillars of our national strategy for economic transformation. In 2022-23, the Scottish Government is providing £380,000 to the Poverty Alliance to expand the real living wage employers accreditation scheme, the living hours employer accreditation scheme and the making living wage places scheme in order to increase the number of workers who are receiving the real living wage and benefiting from secure contracts. I encourage all employers to pursue real living wage and living hours accreditation, and to engage directly with the Poverty Alliance, which will support them through the accreditation process. Additionally, groups of employees can seek support from the Poverty Alliance to form local partnerships to pursue recognition from the making living wage places scheme.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

In his original answer, the minister referred to the Stewartfield Way project, which is a frankly ludicrous scheme under the city deal to create a new dual carriageway around East Kilbride. It is a scheme that nobody wants that will create no jobs and harm the environment. Can the minister give us an update on where we are with that scheme?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The member raises an interesting point. Decisions about the selection of projects are taken by the city region cabinet, which is where they should be taken, rather than distantly in Whitehall—

which we are observing is the United Kingdom Government’s approach to levelling up. That is what community empowerment, economic regeneration and supporting local economies are about, and that is what we are doing by giving the city cabinet the autonomy to take the decisions that are right for its particular area.

Monica Lennon (Labour, Central Scotland)

The milestone of 75 years since East Kilbride achieved new town status—the first in the country—is cause for celebration. Looking to the future, people who live and work in East Kilbride are keen for investment, particularly in infrastructure and jobs, to continue. What progress has been made to put the dualling of the EK rail line back on track?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

As the member will be aware, we are delivering electrification of the railway line to East Kilbride, as we are doing in Barrhead as part of that project. That commitment was fully considered and appraised through due process, and it is one that the Government is delivering.

National Strategy for Economic Transformation

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what progress has been made on implementing the delivery of its national strategy for economic transformation. (S6O-01066)

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

We have made good early progress on implementation since the publication of the strategy. On 21 March, we published the technology sector export plan, and on Monday we announced the establishment of a centre of expertise in equality and human rights, which will help to tackle structural inequalities and support our vision of a wellbeing economy. An announcement will be made shortly on the new NSET delivery board, as well as the new chief entrepreneurship officer. The board will hold the public sector, business and third sector partners to account.

We undertook to work collaboratively with all sectors, and with individuals and communities, to develop delivery plans and agree key metrics. Those plans will be finalised. Since the launch of the strategy, Ivan McKee and I have met more than 150 stakeholders across all sectors.

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

Ensuring that businesses in Scotland can benefit from the opportunities

of digitalisation will be central to delivering economic transformation. Can the cabinet secretary today provide an update on the steps that the Scottish Government is taking to support businesses, including those in my constituency of Midlothian North and Musselburgh, to access such opportunities?

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

We fully understand the benefits that digital technologies bring to businesses, and I am clear that economic transformation needs to be digitally driven. That is why, since January 2021, we have invested almost £50 million to help businesses of all sizes across sectors and geographies to take advantage of digital technology. The commitment to support the digitalisation of businesses is reinforced in the national strategy for economic transformation, which includes ambitious commitments, including the introduction of a digital productivity fund and the development of new digital support programmes to complement what already exists.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

The Scottish Government’s work to establish a new centre for expertise in equality and human rights is welcome. It is certainly important that equality and human rights are embedded in the economic policy-making process. Can the cabinet secretary provide any further information about how the centre will help to put human rights and equality at the heart of economic policy development?

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

The centre of expertise in equality and human rights will build knowledge, skills and understanding among economic policy officials in order to help embed equality and human rights within the economic policy-making process, and it will help to shape the work that we do to build a fairer and more equal society, including actions to remove barriers to employment for disabled people, women, those with care experience and minority ethnic groups. We are continuing to develop the centre in partnership with stakeholders.

The centre will ultimately meet the strategy’s ambition to build a strong economy and tackle structural inequalities and, critically, will try to embed that thinking on equality and human rights in the development of policy, rather than trying to retrofit policies once they have been developed.

Income Tax

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

6. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its plans for income tax. (S6O-01067)

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The Scottish Government will set out its plans on income tax policy and other devolved tax policies in future budgets.

Engagement is one of our core principles of effective tax policy making, as set out in our tax strategy document, “Framework for Tax”. Engagement is crucial, and is integral to the Scottish Government’s budget process. We will engage with a wide variety of stakeholders on tax policy ahead of the budget for 2023-24, and we will update the chamber as per the usual budget process.

Russell Findlay (Conservative, West Scotland)

The Scottish National Party’s income tax changes have seen Scottish income tax payers pay an extra £900 million over the past three years. According to the Scottish Parliament’s researchers, that has resulted in a net benefit of just £170 million. Will the Scottish Government therefore learn from that mistake and allow Scots to keep more pounds in their pockets?

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The member should perhaps consult the record and learn the fact of the matter, which is that the majority of people in Scotland pay less in income tax than they would if they lived in other parts of the United Kingdom. Further, they enjoy a range of benefits that people in Tory-controlled England can only dream of. They do not have to pay tuition fees or prescription charges and they benefit from a range of other measures that this Government has delivered, and which we know that, if they had even a sniff of power in this Parliament, the Tories would cast away in order to give tax cuts to the wealthiest.

Colin Beattie (Scottish National Party, Midlothian North and Musselburgh)

It is welcome that the Scottish Government’s priority continues to be delivering a fairer and more progressive tax system. At a time when living costs are rising, people on lower incomes should not be paying more tax. Can the minister confirm that the majority of people in Scotland will continue to pay less income tax this year than they would if they lived elsewhere in the UK?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I think that you have already set out your view on that matter, minister, but you can repeat it for the record.

Tom Arthur (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire South)

The member is absolutely correct to raise that point, particularly in the context of the cost of living crisis. I am happy to confirm that the majority of Scottish taxpayers—54 per cent—will pay less income tax in 2022-23 than they would if they lived elsewhere in the UK.

Renewables Sector Innovation (Argyll and Bute)

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

7. To ask the Scottish Government how the just transition will support Argyll and Bute’s local economy through innovation in the renewables sector. (S6O-01068)

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

There is no doubt that growth and innovation in the renewables sector present significant opportunities in Argyll and Bute. Upcoming projects include the repowering of existing onshore wind farms, the 2GW potential from the ScotWind project, MachairWind, and harnessing tidal energy off Islay. ScottishPower Renewables, the developer of MachairWind, has committed to supporting maximum Scottish content for the project and will work with the enterprise agencies to identify Scottish suppliers with potential to fulfil subcontracted scopes of work.

In addition, we have committed to invest up to £25 million over 10 years in the Argyll and Bute growth deal, which will further drive our sustainable economy and support a just transition in the region.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Scotland’s renewable energy industry continues to move from strength to strength, and growing this part of our economy will form a vital part of realising our net zero goals. In the near future, the Minister for Business, Trade, Tourism and Enterprise is planning to visit Argyll and Bute, where manufacturers such as Renewable Parts in Lochgilphead play a vital role in the supply chain for the renewable energy industry. Can the minister provide further information about the steps that the Scottish Government is taking to equip Scotland’s workforce with the necessary skills for the green jobs of the future?

Lorna Slater (Green, Lothian)

We are taking several steps to ensure that people across Scotland have the right skills to support our just transition to net zero. To give an example, the climate emergency skills action plan remains central to our ambitions to develop a workforce that can support the transition. Developments to date include the launch of the green jobs workforce academy platform in August 2021, as well as a suite of green skills training initiatives, which are delivered through the national transition training fund. In addition, we are investing £100 million over five years to help businesses create new green jobs as they transition to a low-carbon economy.

Daniel Johnson (Labour, Edinburgh Southern)

To meet our net zero targets and achieve a just transition, we have to change the way in which we heat our homes. However, air source heat pumps, which seem to be the focus of Government policy, are totally inappropriate for tenemented properties. Can the minister set out the Scottish Government plans to invest in municipal heat networks, so that those who live in tenemented properties can change the way in which they heat their homes?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I am afraid that that question is not relevant to the support of Argyll and Bute’s local economy through innovation in the renewables sector. As the minister does not wish to offer a response, we will move to the next question.

Labour Shortages

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to address reported shortages in the labour market. (S6O-01069)

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

The Scottish Government recognises that employers across many sectors are experiencing significant challenges in attracting and retaining workers.

As the member knows, I spend a considerable amount of time engaging with businesses across all sectors that are covered by my portfolio and beyond. In almost every engagement that I have with business, the issue of labour market shortages is raised.

The Tories’ hard Brexit, which removed freedom of labour, has adversely impacted on many sectors, because many people from the European Union have left Scotland. Now, because of Tory immigration policies, they are not coming here in large numbers. That has resulted in a reduction in the labour market and a loss of skills as a consequence.

We have called on the United Kingdom Government to establish a joint task force on labour market shortages but, so far, it has failed to engage with us on that, just as it has failed to engage with us on our calls to devolve immigration. We believe that devolving that area is the right approach, so that the Scottish Government can make the most appropriate decisions in order to supply the labour market with the necessary skills to support Scottish businesses across all those sectors.

We continue to work with businesses and sectors to do all that we can to mitigate those shortages, with a focus on employability, skills and our important fair work agenda.

Alex Rowley (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The sector that I want to focus on is health and social care, which is a public service that is delivered directly through public provision and through the private sector. There is a major recruitment and retention problem in the sector, and older people up and down Scotland are suffering as a result.

I have met many people who work in the private sector and many private sector companies, and they tell me that they simply cannot recruit and retain staff because of the poor terms and conditions and poor wages. Health and social care is a public service and you have the powers over it in this Parliament so, instead of trying to deliver care on the cheap, will you put the money into the sector that is needed in order to address the retention and recruitment problems?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I remind members that they should speak through the chair.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

That issue is identified across a range of sectors. Health and social care is a very important part of that, and that sector has experienced significant challenges as a consequence of the tight labour market, which is primarily due to the Tory Government’s approach to Brexit and immigration. We continue to call for devolution of those powers to allow us to bring more people into Scotland to fulfil those roles.

The member will be aware that in the sector, the terms and conditions are significantly better than they are in other parts of the UK, which is something that the Scottish Government believes is important and has acted on.

I am sure that the member talks to businesses in his constituency. Only yesterday, I had discussions with the tourism, leisure and hospitality sector, which is facing the same challenges, as is the construction sector and every other sector across Scotland’s economy, due to a shortage of labour. As I indicated, we continue to call on the UK Government to address those challenges by removing barriers to immigration, because sectors are calling for sector-specific or wider visa systems to allow that to happen.

With regard to the aspects over which we have control, the Scottish Government is also taking action to increase supply into the labour market. If the member has read our new 10-year strategy for economic transformation, which I am sure he has, he will know that labour market availability and tackling those challenges form one of the projects that is set out in the strategy. It talks about what we are doing to understand the labour market inactivity statistics in Scotland and what we can do to enable more people of working age who are not in the labour market and are not currently registered as unemployed to take part in the labour market. We can do that through childcare provision and a range of other measures—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Minister, you need to wind up your response. There are a number of supplementaries that I want to get through.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Keep going, keep going.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

I will stop there, but I am sure that the issue will be picked up in the supplementaries.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you, minister. Leave the chair to manage the time. If I need you to talk us through to the end of portfolio question time, I will let you know.

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

In his answer to Alex Rowley, the minister mentioned skills. In January, Audit Scotland set out a number of failings of and a lack of strategic direction from the Scottish Government on skills alignment. Given the importance of reskilling and upskilling, and a restricted labour market, will the minister outline what work the Government is undertaking to ensure that reskilling and upskilling become a reality, and what planning is taking place to ensure that skills provision is well targeted to the needs of Scotland’s economy?

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

The member is right that skills provision is hugely important across all sectors. If he has read our 10-year economic transformation strategy, he will be aware that there is a pillar in it that is devoted to skills and ensuring that we work on our skills provision. Across Scotland—in schools, colleges and universities—we are focusing on ensuring that individuals have the skills that they need for the jobs and sectors of the future and are able to transition from employment in fossil fuel sectors to sectors in the renewable and green economy. A whole range of measures and significant funding are being applied to deliver on those challenges.

Evelyn Tweed (Scottish National Party, Stirling)

The Scottish Government’s work to attract people to Scotland is very welcome because expanding Scotland’s talent pool will play an important part in meeting our economic ambitions. However, does the minister agree that the UK immigration system is failing to meet Scotland’s needs, and that the best way to ensure that we can expand Scotland’s talent pool is by having the necessary power in our hands?

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

The UK Government’s immigration policy fails to address Scotland’s distinct long-term demographic and economic needs, which highlights the need for a tailored approach to migration. The Scottish Government will continue to develop practical, deliverable, evidence-based migration proposals that suit Scotland’s needs.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Christine Grahame.

Christine Grahame (Scottish National Party, Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale)

Thank you. I had given up hope, Presiding Officer; not in relation to you, but of getting to ask a question. I am digging a hole, so I will stop.

I noted the exchange between the minister and Alex Rowley regarding the impact of Brexit on certain labour markets. I have raised the issue of the shortage of bus drivers across the Scottish Borders, and no doubt elsewhere, due to the impact of Brexit. However, drivers are not on the shortage occupation list, and it is disheartening to hear that the UK Government is not discussing the issue with ministers in Scotland. Is there any hope that lorry drivers and bus drivers will be put on the shortage occupation list in early course?

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

As the member indicated, we have, so far, failed to persuade the UK Government of our case. In that sector, as in many other sectors across Scotland’s economy, there are significant labour challenges. We will continue to press the UK Government to put those occupations on the shortage list.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

That concludes portfolio question time. I thank members and the ministerial team for allowing us to get through them all.

Ferry Problems

Annabelle Ewing (Scottish National Party, Cowdenbeath)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-04319, in the name of Graham Simpson, on ferry problems. I invite members who wish to speak to press their request-to-speak button now, please.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

We wanted to call this debate “Ferries Fiasco”, but parliamentary staff told us that we could not. The debate might not be called “Ferries Fiasco” in the

Business Bulletin

, but that is what it is about.

The Scottish Conservatives used our previous debating time to talk about ferries. Had anything changed since then, we could have gone on to something else. However, we still do not know why the Scottish National Party Government awarded the contract to build vessels 801 and 802 to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd against the advice of its in-house experts and despite its posting hundreds of documents. We have had the very sad sight of the United Kingdom forces hero Keith Brown beating a hasty retreat from Her Majesty’s press the other week, sidestepping their battle lines to slink into the cover of the Scottish Parliament canteen.

Mr Brown later gave a less than satisfactory interview with Channel 4 news, in which he said:

“That document, the one that signed it off, if it ever existed, is not now available but it was quite clear from associated documents that it was approved and approved by the minister for transport.”

Work that one out: a document—“if it ever existed”—that signed off the decision. Perhaps the minister can tell us now whether the document that Mr Brown referred to existed.

The silence speaks volumes, Presiding Officer. Mr Brown remembered the script after that and again blamed Derek Mackay, who, at the time of the decision, was the lowly Minister for Transport and Islands, and Mr Brown was his boss. The idea that Derek would not to talk to Keith, who would not talk to John, who signed the cheques, who would not run it past Nicola, is preposterous, particularly when the SNP had an announcement to make at its conference. Derek, Keith, John and Nicola: the Ferries Four—a very dodgy group with no hits to its name.

There is a real and enduring stench of cover-up. The SNP’s secrecy is appalling and corrupt. We do not know why the yard got the contract, but it did. Nicola Sturgeon says that the Government saved the jobs at the yard. The yard could have continued if it had not been given that ill-fated contract. There is no reason to think otherwise.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

Does the member know of any business that would exist without work being given to it?

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The yard had work—that is a fact. I believe, and Jim McColl believes, that the yard could have continued. We can be pretty certain that the yard will not take on anything of that scale again, whatever the future holds. However, we do not know what the future holds for the yard, because the Government cannot make up its mind.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Will the member take an intervention?

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I will take an intervention from Mr McKee because he never gives us any answers to questions.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Indeed I do, as the member knows fine well. If he is so sure that there was work in the yard, will he please specify what that work was?

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

There was work at the yard.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

What was it?

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

There was work at the yard. It had work and it could have taken on more work.

Presiding Officer, the debate has moved on a little since we last discussed the issue in Parliament; I must be fair about that. For example, we have discovered that the FMEL deal might have breached European state aid rules because the Government did not tell the European Union about an incentive of around £106 million to ensure that the work went to Ferguson’s.

We know that figures such as the hugely respected Jim Sillars and the former First Minister Jack McConnell believe that the failure to come clean on the decision-making process might have broken the law on several fronts.

We also know that only one in five Scots think that the SNP is doing a good job of running ferry services. Those one in five people need to get out more if they think that, because most do not share that view.

We have discovered another thing, too. Stewart Hosie thinks that ferries 801 and 802 are “a little late” and that money has not been wasted. Five years and more than 2.5 times over budget sounds more than “a little late”, and it certainly sounds like waste to me. It is that sort of attitude that has got us to where we are.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

Will the member give way?

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

I will not take any more interventions.

It is little wonder that the good people of Arran elected a Conservative councillor—Timothy Billings—last week. Islanders such as those on Arran are the most important people in all this. They are the ones who cannot get to hospital or to work, cannot get deliveries, cannot see family and friends, and, in some cases, cannot get to school, and all because we have an ageing and unreliable fleet on the west coast with no clear plan for renewing vessels. It does not matter to islanders who runs the ferries or where they are built; they just want them to be there.

Our motion mentions the 15 stage payments that were agreed for each vessel, and there could be more than that. It also talks about the lack of engagement with the experienced workforce, about which Edward Mountain will have much more to say.

I have been calling for the Minister for Transport to release the project Neptune report, which, we are led to believe, will set out options for how we might procure and run ferries. Jenny Gilruth said that she could not release it during the council election campaign. Well, that reason does not exist now, so she should publish it this week. Only then can we start to have a sensible conversation on this topic, which is what we need to have. We should not get bogged down in ideology. We should listen to the voices of islanders, such as those on the Mull and Iona Ferry Committee. They have been making some very good points about vessel design and how we should look at potentially breaking up the west coast contract into smaller chunks—which is not, as some believe, privatisation.

We will support the Labour amendment in the name of my good friend Neil Bibby. Unfortunately, the amendment in the name of my other very good friend, Jenny Gilruth, is, I am afraid, devoid of hope and we cannot support it. She should speak to me next time, and I can send her some of my positivity, because that is what the islanders of Scotland are looking out for, and it is not what they are getting.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that the way the Scottish Government has been running ferry services has been a scandal; calls on the Scottish Government to say why it awarded the contract for ferries 801 and 802 to Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited against the advice of its own experts; is concerned about why 15 stage payments were agreed for each ferry; notes concerns that the deal may have broken EU state aid rules; further notes concerns that the lack of documentary evidence to explain the contract award could be in breach of the law; is disappointed that the Scottish Government failed to listen to the experienced workforce who had concerns about the management of the yard; believes that the yard could have survived without the orders for vessels 801 and 802; agrees with the view of the majority of people in Scotland who think that the Scottish National Party administration has done a bad job of running ferries; is concerned that this will contribute to island depopulation, and calls on the Scottish Government to spell out how it plans to run and procure ferry services in the future.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call the minister, Jenny Gilruth, to speak to and move amendment S6M-04391.2. You have up to six minutes, minister.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Talking to that positivity that Mr Simpson was seeking, I have some good news to share with Parliament. Indeed, I have that good news literally here in my hand. The missing documents have been found. Ministers were advised of this by officials shortly before noon today, and I wanted to take the first available opportunity to give Parliament the news.

The document is an email that makes clear who approved the decision to award the contract to build vessels 801 and 802 to Ferguson’s shipyard. Sent in response to the key submission on 8 October 2015, it is dated 9 October, at 14:32, and it reads:

“The Minister is content with the proposals and would like”

them

“to be moved on as quickly as possible please.”

The email was sent by the office of the Minister for Transport and Islands. I hold in my hand that irrefutable documentary evidence that the decision was made rightly and properly by the then transport minister, Derek Mackay.

Douglas Ross (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the minister give way?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I would like to make some progress.

We said that we would continue to look in good faith, and that is exactly what we have done. The document was found because a copy of an email chain had been retained by someone in the Scottish Government finance department, because the then finance secretary was briefed on the decision. By chance, a copy of that email chain between two officials who left Government some years ago included the email from the transport minister’s private office and had been buried in someone’s electronic files.

The email confirms what we said that it would say. It is basically one line long, because that is how the system of Government works.

This documentation has been provided to the Auditor General and is being published as I speak, alongside all the other documents that we have already published relating to the matter, on the Government’s website.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Will the minister give way?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I would like to make some progress.

The e-mail destroys the Opposition’s ridiculous conspiracy theory that another minister made the decision, and it destroys the unfounded speculation that a ministerial direction was given.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss ferry issues again.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

The e-mail that has just been read out does not say why the decision was taken, why the advice not to award the contract was ignored and whether there were discussions between Mr Mackay, Mr Brown, Mr Swinney and Ms Sturgeon, does it?

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

The information that pertains to the decision to award the contract, which Mr Simpson is searching for, has already been published. He has received answers to numerous topical questions, and the First Minister has answered numerous questions on the issue. The Opposition has to give up; it has an answer today.

The Opposition may not take my word for it, but it needs to listen to the words of the voters in our island communities—they are the ones who want to see progress, and they are the ones who deserve a solution.

Our ferry network is as intrinsic to those who live on our mainland as roads are to the rest of us. They are islanders’ motorways, as I was told recently by the Shetland hauliers association. The Government has got to improve how we deliver ferry services, and we have to do that correctly.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

I welcome the fact that we are now turning to the subject of ferries and away from the conspiracy theories that we have listened to for the last few minutes from the Opposition.

The minister will appreciate that, in the past hour, CalMac has announced that the MV Lord of the Isles will be out of service from Tuesday 17 May for an estimated eight days due to a technical issue. Once again, that leaves Lochboisdale without a service to the mainland for a prolonged period of time, which adds to the already—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Excuse me, Dr Allan, please resume your seat. Dr Allan is trying to make an intervention and there is too much noise; please let Dr Allan make his intervention.

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

The minister will be aware that this is not the first time that Lochboisdale has been without a service, and I know from conversations that I have had with her that she appreciates the frustration that is caused. Will she commit to raising the issue with CalMac as a matter of urgency, with a view to establishing an improvement plan specifically for Mallaig to help deal with the—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Excuse me, Dr Allan. Interventions should be brief. The minister probably gets the gist and can respond.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I became aware of the issues surrounding the

MV Lord of the Isles vessel earlier today. I will meet with CalMac tonight; I believe that representatives of CalMac are attending a parliamentary reception, so I will raise it with them directly.

I want to move on to discuss some of the issues that we have faced more recently on the Isle of Arran, and how those were resolved productively by CalMac.

It is important that we move on. We owe it to our island communities to do better on the debate on ferries. We have to lift the tone. I was reminded of that last week during a call with the Arran ferry committee, during which we reflected on some of the lessons learned from the recent outage with the MV Caley Isles. Sheila Gilmore, the chief executive of VisitArran, has spoken of the reputational damage the outage caused; indeed, some news reports from the weekend when the outage began incorrectly said that all routes to Arran were off. Irrespective of party, all of us in the chamber must support the return of tourism to our island communities, which will, of course, be vital to many businesses and families in 2022.

I have already been absolutely clear that communities are not currently always getting the service that they need, and that needs to change, but I suggest that they do not need the Opposition’s version of “Groundhog Day” either. Our island communities need accurate, fair and well-informed commentary and debate about the challenges but also the opportunities for their economies and communities. Ferries and resilient transport connectivity are key to ensuring that Scotland’s islands thrive and flourish, and I am determined to do all that I can to make that happen, as is everyone in the Scottish Government. I hope the Opposition will join me in that endeavour.

I move amendment S6M-04319.2, to leave out from “the way the” to end and insert:

“ferry services provide an essential lifeline to island and remote rural communities and their economies; acknowledges that the delays and cost overruns to vessels 801 and 802 are regrettable; notes the findings of the Audit Scotland report, that all of its recommendations have been accepted, and that improvements, including changes to procurement practices, have already been made; recognises the progress that is being made at Ferguson Marine under the recently appointed chief executive, including the milestone reached at the end of April 2022 with the fitting of Hull 802’s bow unit, with both dual fuel vessels being scheduled for delivery in 2023; further recognises the role that Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd is playing in that progress, not least through the involvement of an experienced secondee in Ferguson Marine’s senior management team, and welcomes that the Scottish Government saved Ferguson Marine, the last commercial shipyard on the Clyde, from closure, rescuing more than 300 jobs, with over 400 people currently employed at the yard, and ensuring that two new ferry vessels will be delivered to maintain and enhance connectivity to Scotland’s islands.”.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I call Neil Bibby to speak to and move amendment S6M-4319.1.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

I welcome the debate that Graham Simpson has brought forward today.

Today, Scottish Labour is making a further call for full openness and transparency to get to the bottom of Scotland’s ferry fiasco. A parliamentary committee has already branded the procurement of vessels 801 and 802 a “catastrophic failure”.

Audit Scotland outlined a multitude of failings that led to delays of four years and a procurement budget that is now two and a half times the original contract price.

We still do not have clear answers about what went wrong and, crucially, why. That is not acceptable. If the concerns of the workforce at Ferguson’s had been addressed sooner, perhaps the yard would be in a better position now.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

Will the member take an intervention?

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Let me make some progress, please.

If that had happened, one of the biggest failures in public procurement in the past 20 years could have been avoided.

There are conflicting accounts of how we have ended up where we are today. The First Minister is right to ask us to treat the accounts of Jim McColl and the previous owners with caution. He is not, as she said in the chamber, a “disinterested” party—that is correct—but neither is the Scottish Government. The ferries were procured on its behalf by Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd. As I have said repeatedly, the First Minister is ultimately responsible for the Scottish Government. She should assume direct ministerial responsibility for the Government’s investments at Ferguson’s, for putting the yard on a stronger footing and for ensuring full transparency in relation to everything that has gone wrong.

Audit Scotland has said that there is insufficient documentary evidence to explain why the contract for the ferries was issued without a full refund guarantee. That remains astonishing and clearly requires further investigation. The minister has quoted from an email today that nobody in the chamber has seen before now.

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I had not seen it before today.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

The fact that the minister had not seen it before today—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Excuse me. There should not be sedentary comments, because they are not necessarily picked up in the

Official Report

.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

The fact that the Minister for Transport is unearthing emails about the ferries fiasco only today begs the question what else the Scottish Government has not actually found in the archives. Crucially, we need to know why the Scottish Government ignored CMAL’s advice. Audit Scotland has said that there is no documentary evidence. The Parliament has still not seen any documentary evidence that shows why the Scottish Government ignored CMAL’s advice.

On the issue of full openness and transparency, a number of senior staff at Ferguson’s signed non-disclosure agreements. I note the First Minister’s remarks at First Minister’s question time, but let me say clearly that non-disclosure requirements should not prevent anyone from giving full and accurate evidence to Audit Scotland, to anybody else who is legitimately investigating the failures at Ferguson’s or to the Parliament.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

Will the member take an intervention?

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Yes. I would welcome confirmation from the cabinet secretary that she will support Labour’s amendment to waive the non-disclosure agreements.

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

I am keen to know whether Labour actually supports the workers at Ferguson’s. The GMB has absolutely blasted Labour for using them as a political football, eroding morale and undermining efforts to save the yard for the long term. Is the member proud of his efforts in that regard?

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

I respect what the GMB has to say. I always expect the GMB to stand up for its members. Stuart McMillan, the local MSP, has said that the workforce at Ferguson’s are embarrassed. They should not be embarrassed; they are blameless. The people who should be embarrassed are those in the Scottish Government who have overseen this fiasco.

The Scottish Government cannot selectively quote from the GMB on particular issues. The union and Scottish Labour have continuously made constructive suggestions about building simpler ferries, but those have fallen on deaf ears. We have made constructive suggestions about building the ferries in Scotland, not in Turkey, in order to protect Scottish shipbuilding jobs, but those suggestions have also fallen on deaf ears.

I hope that every member in the chamber will support Labour’s amendment—we will wait and see how the Government votes on it—which is vital to ensure that all non-disclosure agreements relating to the procurement of the ferries are waived. Non-disclosure agreements should not prevent anyone from making legitimate inquiries. We need openness and transparency; we cannot afford secrecy and cover-up. A vote for our amendment would be a vote for openness and transparency. A vote against it would be a vote for secrecy and cover-up.

Scrutiny of the decisions that have been taken over the past several years is necessary and unavoidable. A catastrophic failure in procurement of this kind must not happen again. Lessons need to be learned. Let me be clear again: the skilled workers at Ferguson’s are not to blame for the delays. The damage that the Government has done to the yard’s reputation—not the legitimate inquiries of auditors and the Parliament—has damaged the potential for Scottish shipbuilding. We owe it to the workforce to turn the situation around by securing new contracts for the yard and getting that sector of the economy firing on all cylinders again.

I represent the lower Clyde and many of the workers. I stand behind all those who want to breathe new life into the industry. That is why I, again, call for a national ferry building replacement programme to support the sector. Scottish Labour’s ambition is to modernise the CalMac fleet. New ferries, with a fair share being built in the lower Clyde, will bring resilience to our ferry network and create new opportunities for the workforce.

Those ferries do not need to be complex new designs such as the dual fuel ferries that Ferguson’s is now building. Simpler contracts for simpler ferries do not need to go overseas to places such as Turkey. We can create a pipeline of work that will see the lower Clyde getting its fair share—it just takes leadership from the Government.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Bibby, you will need to bring your remarks to a close, please.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

Okay.

There must be openness and transparency. That also applies to the project Neptune report, which must be published without delay. I reiterate that the CalMac network must be retained as a public service, servicing the interests of the travelling public. There must be full disclosure if we are to turn the yard around.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Mr Bibby, please move the amendment in your name and close.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

I move amendment S6M-04319.1, to

insert at end:

“, and further calls on the Scottish Government to waive any non-disclosure requirements preventing public and parliamentary scrutiny of the procurement of vessels 801 and 802.”

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The minister obviously thinks that she has demolished all the arguments with her revelation today. For a start, we are expected to believe that she just discovered the email this morning, which is difficult to believe, when we bear in mind the Government’s track record on openness. She also expects us to believe that a multimillion-pound contract was given the go-ahead on the basis of a one-line email. That does not fill me with confidence. It certainly does not explain why the then minister ignored the central advice. With a multimillion-pound contract, we would expect the reasons why the advice was ignored to be set out.

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Will the member take an intervention?

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Not just now. I am trying to explain my argument.

The situation also shows a Government that is very poor at keeping records. We are talking about a multimillion-pound contract that cost a lot of money and, as we now know, islanders were dependent on its success.

The email does not fill members with confidence, as we heard from the laughter at the minister’s claims, and I think that it will raise an awful lot more questions. I want to see this email. I want to see the background and the paperwork that goes with it, because I simply do not believe that, at what just happens to be the last minute before a debate on the issue, a slam-dunk argument appears for the minister.

There is an element of Comical Ali about the SNP’s approach—as the bombs rain down around the SNP, the denial continues. As Graham Simpson set out, Stewart Hosie said yesterday that the ferries are a little bit late. They are four years late, and we are certain that it will be longer. Mr Hosie said that it is not waste that the project is £150 million over budget. Tell that to the islanders who are waiting yet again when ferries to multiple islands have broken down. Tell that to the families who are freezing at home because they cannot afford to pay their electricity bills. The Government has put £10 million into the fuel insecurity fund, but just imagine what a difference we could make if we added £150 million to that budget. To the SNP, it does not matter—it is not waste, and the ferries are a little bit late.

The SNP needs to accept that it has made fundamental errors that are having a direct impact on people’s lives right now, rather than keep on with the denial and reveal emails at the last minute before debates. That is not the way to run a Government, and it is a sign of a Government that is getting increasingly arrogant in its approach to administration.

We needed another debate on the issue. Graham Simpson is right that he has held debates on it before—the Liberal Democrats have had a debate, too—but we still do not have the critical answers, including those on the project Neptune report.

The most important thing is how the Government has trashed the reputation of a very good yard, which as a result is not even bidding for ferry contracts—contracts are going to Turkey instead. The Government should not blame anyone else, including the Opposition, for that reputation being trashed. The responsibility is held by those on the SNP front benches and by all those on the back benches behind them, who back them every single day. The reputation has been trashed, just like that of Burntisland Fabrications and the Lochaber smelter, and just like what happened with the £10 billion China deal and the Lanarkshire steel mills, where state aid rules—

Ivan McKee (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Provan)

Will the member take an intervention?

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

No—I am running out of time.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The member is about to close.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

The Government has trashed the yard’s reputation, and it should not dare blame anyone else for that. The responsibility is with SNP ministers and no one else.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Members are meant to treat one another with courtesy and respect. The transport minister has revealed to members an email that nobody else has seen. It is unacceptable that the minister is treating Parliament and members with such contempt. Where is the email? We have not been sent it. No one has seen it. The Government’s behaviour is utterly unacceptable and disrespectful to Parliament.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I thank the member for his point of order. I, too, was unaware of that development. It will be reflected on and a response will be given later this afternoon, if that is acceptable to the member.

We move to the open debate. I call Donald Cameron, to be followed by Paul McLennan. Speeches should be up to four minutes. There is very little time in hand.

Donald Cameron (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Since I was elected to the Parliament six years ago, the fragility and unreliability of Scotland’s ferry network have undoubtedly been one of the most serious local issues that I have had to deal with. When we previously debated the issue, I spoke about the people and communities that depend on a robust ferry service. They are at their wits’ end as they continue to live with a substandard service that provides little in the way of comfort or certainty.

As other members have said, an email from CalMac that came just 30 minutes ago says that the MV Lord of the Isles is out of service for repairs, and services will be suspended for eight days. It does not end. To Alasdair Allan, I say this: it is his SNP Government that has presided over this chaos.

We do not hear enough about the thousands of islanders who suffer from the situation. What about their jobs and their lives? As Graham Simpson noted, we need to listen to the island communities. Last week, Arran elected a Scottish Conservative councillor, Bute elected its first Scottish Conservative councillor in 40 years and Skye elected a Scottish Conservative councillor for the first time ever. The fact is that, when it comes to ferries, people are starting to notice who is standing up for them and who is letting them down.

The problems surrounding our network have been known to the Government, and yet no meaningful action has been taken. We know that the contract to build two vital ferries was handed to Ferguson Marine against the explicit advice of CMAL; I will come back to that. We know that ministers ignored that advice and pressed ahead anyway, but we do not know why.

We know Audit Scotland’s view. Its report has been much quoted, but it bears repeating. Audit Scotland said that

“significant financial and procurement risks”

were associated with the deal and that the weakness in Ferguson Marine’s project governance was to be noted. The Auditor General said:

“The failure to deliver these two ferries, on time and on budget, exposes a multitude of failings. A lack of transparent decision-making, a lack of project oversight, and no clear understanding of what significant sums of public money have achieved. And crucially, communities still don’t have the lifeline ferries they were promised years ago.”

Those are damning words from our national independent scrutiny body. All the while, the ferries remain in dock, more than £150 million over budget, severely delayed and with no realistic end in sight, while our island communities feel never-ending despair.

I will focus briefly on email exchanges from 2015 between Erik Østergaard, then chair of CMAL, and Tom Docherty, then chief executive of CMAL, about the deal with Ferguson Marine. Their advice could not have been clearer. One email from Mr Østergaard says:

“There is no way that the board can recommend the SG through CMAL to take this level of unsecured risk on its shoulders.”

That is CMAL—the very body that was tasked with procuring ferries for Scotland, whose reason for existence is to own, buy and sell ferries—saying in the plainest possible language, “Do not do this.” In spite of all those justified concerns from CMAL’s in-house experts, the Scottish Government pressed ahead, and we do not know why. It stinks to high heaven. It is a scandal.

As a result, our local communities are suffering and will continue to suffer because of the Government’s staggering ineptitude. Although doing so will not fix the damage that has been done, the SNP Government must apologise to people who rely on such services and tell us who is responsible for this mess and who will go as a result of this shambles.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate.

I am aware of how important ferries are to the communities that they serve and what they mean to the economy and the general wellbeing of such communities. However, we must acknowledge that £2 billion has been invested in service contracts, new vessels and infrastructure since 2007 and that, in the current five-year period, a further £580 million has been committed.

The Scottish Government’s commitment to publish the islands connectivity plan by the end of 2022 is welcome, and I have no doubt that it will be discussed in the chamber. As we know, the islands connectivity plan, which will look at aviation, ferries and fixed links, will replace the current ferries plan. It will ensure that more sustainable ferries are invested in and that 30 per cent of state-owned ferries are low-emission vessels by 2032.

Jamie Greene (Conservative, West Scotland)

Will the member take an intervention?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I have only four minutes, and I have a lot to get through.

The islands connectivity plan will be taken forward through the national transport strategy and the strategic transport projects review, which will enable us to consider other potential viable options for connecting the islands.

As I said, the islands connectivity plan will replace the ferries plan by the end of 2022, and engagement and consultation on the plan will enable substantial public and community input. That is quite right. The Scottish Government plans to explore the potential to build more fixed links to island and remote communities, and to work with island communities to reduce reliance on ferries. That needs to be part of the consultation process.

Investment in our ferry fleet can come with benefits for our industry. The Scottish Government’s intervention in 2019 saved the Ferguson’s yard and its workforce—

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the member take an intervention?

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

No—I have only four minutes, and we are pushed for time. [

Interruption

.]

That does not mean that I do not take an interest.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Excuse me, Mr McLennan, could you take a seat, please? I remind the chamber that it is up to members whether they take an intervention—punto.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

That does not mean that I do not take an interest in the subject, so I ask Mr Halcro Johnston not to be patronising.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Please resume your seat, Mr McLennan. I appreciate that feelings are running high in the debate, but members have a duty of courtesy and respect—that applies across the chamber.

Paul McLennan (Scottish National Party, East Lothian)

I apologise.

I will focus on the point about the Ferguson’s workforce, which has hardly been touched on. Let us not forget the yard’s workforce and the fact that there are hundreds of families who rely on the yard for their wellbeing and welfare. Let us not imagine what the impact on the local community would have been if the yard had closed. Let us by all means scrutinise decisions, but we should not forget the workforce.

Progress has been made at the yard, but we need to ensure that Ferguson Marine is back to being a serious contender for future vessel contracts. However, we must also ensure delivery as best we can when it comes to lifeline services for our island communities. The Scottish Government remains fully committed to supporting the Ferguson’s yard to secure a sustainable future, including a pipeline of future work, and it continues to work closely with the yard to ensure that it becomes globally competitive.

The decision that was taken to safeguard the future of Ferguson Marine was the right decision. The Scottish Government has set out two priorities for the yard’s management—to finish building the two ferries that are under construction and to get the yard back into shape to compete for new work. Scottish ministers will do all that they can to ensure a strong future for Ferguson’s.

The Scottish Government remains open to feedback regarding areas for improvement and has committed to a review of the legal structures and governance arrangements that exist between the tripartite group of Transport Scotland, Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd and CalMac Ferries to ensure that they remain fit for purpose to deliver an effective, efficient and economic ferry service. The Scottish Government is developing a revised ferries stakeholder engagement strategy, which will set out an approach to engagement on the three key areas of operational issues, strategy and policy. It has also pledged to consult on the evolution of fares policy, including freight fares, as part of the islands connectivity plan.

Through its “Infrastructure Investment Plan for Scotland 2021-22 to 2025-26”, the Scottish Government will maintain a long-term plan and investment programme for new ferries and development at ports to improve resilience, reliability, capacity and accessibility and reduce emissions, which will meet the needs of island communities.

There is no doubt that it has been a tough year for our island communities. Lessons need to be learned, our island communities need to be reassured and fully consulted, and we need to have a thriving shipbuilding industry in Scotland.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The ferries crisis is not merely a catastrophic failure; it is the biggest and most expensive scandal of the SNP Government’s time in office so far.

Reports from the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee and Audit Scotland prove that, but huge questions remain. Why did Scottish ministers go against advice from their advisers and award a contract to Ferguson Marine? Where did the £45 million in loans given to Ferguson Marine by Derek Mackay go? How can the £2,500 per day paid to Tim Hair be value for money? Will anyone take responsibility? Does any minister want to stand up and take responsibility? Obviously not, which is why we need a full public inquiry.

Let us look at the milestone payments that were made to Ferguson Marine, which saw the taxpayer hand over 84 per cent of the contract value for two ferries in return for one rusting hull and some spare parts. Initially, there were 15 of those stage payments, but when things started to go wrong at the yard, the Government increased them to 18, which allowed the contractor to get more dosh earlier.

As a surveyor with 15 years of experience, I know that, when stage payments are agreed, a quantity surveyor needs to sign off each one. That cannot possibly have happened in this instance.

I have submitted freedom of information requests on each milestone payment, what checks were carried out on the hulls and who approved the payments. Those questions are simple enough. There should be a paper trail, which will maybe turn up miraculously today. That information should be easy to release, but this secretive Government has delayed answers on every single one of my FOIs. What is it hiding? Has it lost the papers as well?

When checking the milestone payments, the Government certainly did not listen to the skilled workforce in the yard. We know for a fact from the union rep, Alex Logan, that the workers knew of the faults but were required to press ahead with a construction that was based on flawed designs. Did the Scottish Government ask them when they made such noises about that? No—it did not; it just dished out the dosh.

An unapproved bulbous bow, mooring stations that were not fit for purpose and cables that were placed up the lift shafts on hull 801 all triggered payments. The Government even signed off the payment for launching the vessel, ignoring the fact that it had fake funnels that were connected to pretendy engines and that it had painted-on windows. The Government went on to pay all but one of the milestone payments for hull 801. To my mind, that was ridiculous, given that it was clear that it was not even half built.

Lessons were not learned when it came to hull 802. Thirteen of the 18 payments were made, with little more than the keel being laid, which was evident when the Government took over control. How could that be allowed to happen? Why did the Scottish Government agree to 18 stage payments, instead of the industry standard of five? Who signed that off?

Perhaps the Government knew at the outset that there was a real problem with cash flow at Ferguson Marine. What other reasons could there have been for agreeing to so many stage payments? Surely it had nothing to do with the fact that Jim McColl had direct telephone contact with the First Minister, which is a matter of public record. However, there are no records or notes of those telephone calls, so perhaps we will never know.

It has been a shambles, with no paperwork and no scrutiny, all of which has cost Scotland in excess of £300 million. Earlier this afternoon, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy asked what other contracts were available. It appears that she does not even know what is going on in her own yard. When the ferries contract was awarded, the fish farm vessel hull 805, Kallista Helen, was being built, and another one, called Helen Rice, was on the books. There were three vessels in total, because there was a gas vessel—

Kate Forbes (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

rose—

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The member is just about to conclude, because he is over time. Please conclude, Mr Mountain.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The full lid has yet to be lifted on this dismal affair. Our islanders desperately need the long-delayed ferries, and they deserve answers. The contract was shambolic and scandalously organised, and it really needs a public inquiry.

Katy (Labour, West Scotland)

I refer members to my entry in the register of interests.

I would like to address openness and transparency, particularly with regard to how they affect the issues that were raised in the Audit Scotland report. The Scottish Government has the power to lift non-disclosure agreements. It has been reported that at least one figure was keen to pass on evidence to the Auditor General but was held back from doing so. Will the Scottish Government today confirm that current and former employees—and any other person who is covered by a non-disclosure agreement into which the Scottish Government entered—should not be prevented from speaking out on the issue?

It is clear that the management of the project to build hulls 801 and 802 has been shambolic, with bad and politicised decision making, poor appointments and a culture of secrecy. Islanders and the workforce were not involved in decision making, and representations that were made for smaller vessels to be built were ignored. It is vital for all of us, and for the taxpayer, that we learn the lessons of the procurement process. Openness and transparency are issues of principle and it will be impossible for lessons to be learned from the fiasco unless the public and the Parliament have access to the facts.

Six years ago, the First Minister attended the launch. Since then, the cost has reached two and a half times the original budget. Senior managers have been paid eye-watering sums—we repeatedly hear about the £2 million that we understand was paid to Tim Hair.

It is clear that Scotland needs proper explanations and access to information and documents, to enable proper scrutiny to take place. That is what this debate should be about. That is why Labour lodged an amendment that asks us to focus on that issue in today’s debate.

Labour is committed to Ferguson Marine. We are committed to the workforce. We are committed to shipbuilding in Scotland. We are committed to investment, to rebuild the sector.

None of what has happened in this fiasco is the fault of the workforce. It is the fault of poor management and poor political decision making. None of what has happened is the fault of the islanders, who rely on lifeline services and are paying the price for the mistakes that have been made.

We need the Scottish Government to waive the non-disclosure requirements in the contracts and to come up with a long-term plan that includes procurement of ferries in Scotland, with an industrial strategy to rebuild our shipbuilding industry as part of a wider green agenda.

Hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been spent, and misspent. We need transparency and an undertaking from the Scottish Government today that it will waive the requirements of the non-disclosure agreements, so that this Parliament can discover the truth.

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

I thank Graham Simpson for bringing this debate to the chamber.

If Mr Bibby is going to quote me, he should please do so accurately. In a previous debate, I referred to the views of a worker, not “the workforce”.

I say to Mr Rennie that the yard shut in 2014 and went into liquidation in 2019, which tells me that there was a problem with it for a long time.

Procurement is clearly a crucial issue in any contract. I will come back to the part of Mr Simpson’s motion that relates to procurement. The motion also

“calls on the Scottish Government to say why it awarded the contract for ferries 801 and 802 to Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited against the advice of its own experts”.

Those experts—CMAL—are the same people that the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems have castigated and demonised over the past few years. Now that it suits their narrative, the Conservatives are trying to cosy up to CMAL.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Will the member give way?

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

No.

It is obvious that the language around CMAL has changed since the Audit Scotland report. I gently suggest to MSPs of all parties that they engage with CMAL to learn about its work and what it actually does. CMAL plays an important part across this country and in Port Glasgow, where it is based.

I assure Mr Simpson and his Conservative colleagues that if, in 2019, the Scottish Government had sat on its hands and done nothing, the yard would have closed, the jobs would have gone and the vessels would have been towed elsewhere. Before last week’s council elections, political parties would have been canvassing in new apartments where a shipyard had once stood.

Is Graham Simpson seriously suggesting that the SNP Scottish Government should have sat on its hands, as the Labour-Liberal Democrat Scottish Executive did in 2005 after it awarded the fishery protection vessel contract to Poland? I am sure that Mr Simpson and his Conservative colleagues would have urged the Scottish Government to intervene to save those jobs, but after his earlier comments—

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, North East Fife)

Will the member give way on that point?

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

I am sorry; I have only four minutes.

After Mr Simpson’s earlier comments, I genuinely do not believe that the Conservatives would have stepped in, so that yard would have shut. Intervening saved the jobs and provided an opportunity for the future.

Progress has been made at the yard, but there is still some way to go.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

Will the member give way?

Stuart McMillan (Scottish National Party, Greenock and Inverclyde)

Operational decisions on which vessel opportunities to pursue are for the Ferguson’s management team and the board of directors. There is no doubt that completing vessels 801 and 802 has been extremely challenging, but let us be clear: those vessels must be delivered as soon as possible, and I have said that in the chamber before.

There can be no ifs or buts when it comes to lifeline services for our island communities. The procurement process for vessels 801 and 802 was undertaken thoroughly, in good faith and following appropriate due diligence, and suggestions to the contrary are incorrect.

Only last month, MSPs from across Parliament and the local MP attended the yard and had the opportunity to ask the new chief executive and the secondee from CMAL any questions that they wanted to ask. It is clear that the yard is making progress, but there is still some way to go; I know that from the phone calls that I get from the workforce.

I said that I would come back to the issue of procurement. If the Scottish Conservatives want to talk about procurement, they should look at their colleagues in Westminster. Look at the shambles that is going on in Westminster. Look at the £10.5 billion of pandemic-related contracts that were awarded to companies in the VIP lane without a competitive tender process. Companies with the right political connections were ten times as likely to win those contracts.

I will take no lessons from Tories, whether here or in Westminster. Although Arran voted for a Tory, I am thankful that there are 63 fewer Tory councillors in Scotland as of last week.

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

Although I am glad of the opportunity to champion the cause of my constituents on an issue that is vital to island life, it concerns me that debates on the matter in the chamber have not moved the conversation on.

I have cross-party colleagues who feel the impact of the issue as keenly as I do, having been contacted by constituents, small businesses and schoolchildren who have felt the impacts of ferry service disruption on their quality of life. During my recent visit to Benbecula and South Uist, almost every conversation I had on the doorstep reflected that.

I feel strongly that we should use our time in the chamber to make progress, present solutions and advance the causes of our constituents. Islanders and Ferguson Marine workers alike deserve far better than party-political point scoring.

Of course, accountability in public spending is critical, and I welcome the robust scrutiny that we have provided in our debates on the matter. I also welcome the Scottish Government’s willingness to acknowledge the shortcomings of the past and its commitment to learn from them.

I cannot emphasise enough that the next 10 years are vital for the future of our planet, and the Scottish Government must take an approach to procurement that centres environmental impact and community wellbeing. We must urgently decarbonise our existing vessels and utilise technology, as NorthLink Ferries and Orkney Islands Council are doing, to reduce emissions through the use of an onshore electricity connector.

However, the problem is not just about procurement; to get our ferry services fully functioning, we need a comprehensive, long-term marine infrastructure plan that covers ports, harbours, vessels, ScotWind and all the components of Scotland’s marine infrastructure.

As part of such a plan, we could establish three standard sizes for new vessels, so that they can berth at more ports to make it easier for one ferry to substitute for another when a vessel is offline. We must go further to make our ferries a good green transport option for the 21st century.

Edward Mountain (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Will the member take an intervention?

Ariane Burgess (Green, Highlands and Islands)

I have only four minutes.

Significant investment in the sector must be future proofed by making our ferries cleaner and greener to run. If ferry operators enjoyed the certainty of longer-term contracts, they could seek investment on the back of future ticket sales to procure their vessels without the need for substantial public investment.

Fixed links could provide cost-effective long-term solutions to island communities such as Yell and Unst in Shetland, where there is widespread community support.

Depopulation is one of the key, defining issues for islanders, and ferry services are only one piece of the puzzle. We need to take a holistic approach. We should extend the policy of free bus travel for under-22s to ferries, bringing parity between islands and the mainland in Scotland’s public transport offer.

We must also improve the interconnectedness between rail and ferry routes, which currently can render islands inaccessible. ScotRail now being in public ownership, thanks to the Green deal with the Scottish Government, paves the way for a more fully integrated public transport network that works for all.

Those proposals in concert have the potential to help in reversing rural depopulation trends, revitalising our communities and making the islands more accessible for those who walk, wheel and cycle.

Whenever I speak about ferries in the chamber, committee or the press, I am always humbled by the response from my constituents. They get in touch with ideas, solutions and great initiatives, such as fitting electric vehicle charge points on to ferries. From procurement, through manufacture to delivery, we all agree that Scotland needs more reliable, greener ferry services. Therefore, I urge my colleagues to be more like our constituents and work together on solutions for the future of our ferry services.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Do we have any time in hand in the debate for interventions so that we can have a proper debate?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

It is entirely up to members whether they choose to take an intervention. There is no time in hand. The length of the debate was fixed by the Parliamentary Bureau, not the chair.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. In relation to the announcement that the Minister for Transport made earlier about the missing email, the first that I have seen of the document was on Twitter. I have just seen it now. That is disrespectful to the Parliament.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

As I indicated to Mr Bibby in response to his earlier point of order on that general subject, the matter is currently being reflected on and a report will be provided to the Parliament later.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I have now seen the emails on social media—they have not been sent directly by the Government. It appears that the Deputy First Minister cleared the way for the award of the contract. Will the Scottish Government clarify his role in the matter, as that was not included in the Minister for Transport’s opening speech?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

I have not seen the document in question so I cannot comment on its substance. Mr Bibby will have many opportunities to pursue that issue, which is slightly separate from the one that he first raised with the chair a wee while ago.

Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Is it not, in the judgment of the Presiding Officer—the chair of the Parliament—the height of disrespect to introduce the document in the way that it has been introduced? Surely it is bordering on contempt of Parliament to treat us in such a way. It is a huge disrespect and surely the Presiding Officer has a view on it.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

As I indicated in response to Mr Bibby’s first point of order and Mr Simpson’s point of order, and as I now indicate to Mr Kerr, the matter is being actively reflected on and a response will be provided later this afternoon.

I hope that I can now move on to the last speaker in the open debate because time is short. The time for the debate is set by the bureau and I would like to have the full speaking time for the remaining speakers.

I call Jenni Minto.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

As I have said before, I am the MSP with the highest number of ferry routes in my constituency and live on an island. I understand the shortcomings of the service and, therefore, have a bigger stake in its improvements than most members who are sitting in the chamber.

As other members have said, the Scottish Government has committed £580 million to fund new ferries and port investment in this parliamentary session. That has included the introduction of the MV Loch Frisa, which has been purchased to serve the island of Mull. It will be a welcome addition to the route, and will help the island to have a year-round, two-boat service, as well as releasing the MV Coruisk to support other routes.

Two new ferries for Islay have been ordered, which will bring an almost 40 per cent increase in vehicle and freight capacity to the route. That will reduce emissions and improve the resilience of the wider fleet. I suggest that there is a clear plan: it includes the new Mull boat, the small vessel replacement programme and new vessels for the Dunoon, Gourock and Kilcreggan triangle.

I know that the Scottish Government recognises that ferries are an essential part of Scotland’s transport network and that the quality of our ferry services impacts us all. Engagement and consultation will enable substantial public and community input. I know that my constituents are willing to get involved, as those are their lifeline services, and I commend my constituents who want to engage. For example, the Islay ferry group completed sterling work to inform Transport Scotland, CalMac and CMAL about the projected ferry demand from the whisky, farming and tourism industries in order to inform the design of the new ferries, as well as the timetable changes.

Eleven days ago, I convened a meeting on Jura, linking the community council and development trust with Transport Scotland, CalMac, Argyll and Bute Council and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. As an island off an island, Jura is not unique, but it does give people who live there and visitors to it a slightly more complicated approach to travel. By bringing those key stakeholders into the same room as the Jura folk, we were able to discuss the constraints and issues of their transport services and explore solutions. There are concerns about crew staffing on the Jura route. It is good that those connections have been strengthened to look into resolutions to ensure that the lifeline service is fit for purpose.

The Scottish Government provides funding for local authority ferries such as the Jura ferry. I am therefore pleased that the Minister for Transport has committed to meet local authority partners about that. Later this month, I am hosting a public meeting with CalMac on Mull to ensure that islanders have their say on how the ferry situation impacts their lives. The following day, CalMac and I will meet the Mull & Iona Ferry Committee to progress the matters that have been raised. It has been mentioned that tonight, CalMac management will be in the Parliament to speak to MSPs, and I hope to see all the speakers in the debate, and perhaps everyone who is currently in the chamber, there.

My constituents in Argyll and Bute are rightly concerned about ferries, but they are looking forward with the SNP, engaging with stakeholders, seeking solutions and being resilient—as islanders are.

The SNP in Argyll and Bute advanced in last week’s local government election, increasing its share of the vote and the number of councillors. Meanwhile, the Tories’ share of the vote reduced. In every seat that has a ferry service, the Tories’ vote went down.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

That is not true.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

In my constituency, it is true.

In the spirit of cross-party co-operation, I will let the Scottish Tories into a secret. The main problem that many of my constituents face, as do people in every corner of Scotland, is the cost of living crisis: the cost of feeding their families and paying their heating bills. Perhaps, instead of grandstanding over ferries, Conservative members in Scotland might like to have words with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Finlay Carson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

Stand up for your constituents.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I am standing up for my constituents. [

Interruption

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer

The member is about to conclude.

Jenni Minto (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Unless Westminster does something radical to help the ordinary people of Scotland and elsewhere in the British Isles, the cost of living crisis will drag on for longer and with far, far greater consequences than the current problems with ferries that the Scottish Government, and the Minster for Transport, are focused on sorting.

Rhoda Grant (Labour, Highlands and Islands)

The crux of the debate is that disastrous decisions were made that have cost the Scottish people hundreds of millions of pounds. The cost to our island communities is immeasurable. We suspect that the decisions were made for political reasons—to further the SNP’s ambitions, rather than to serve our island communities and Scotland’s industry.

It seems to be convenient that the Scottish Government has found proof that it can pin the blame on Derek MacKay, who appears to have made the decision when he was on holiday, without reference to any of his colleagues. It beggars belief.

Willie Rennie said that the email raises more questions than it gives answers. Given the Scottish Government’s secrecy, it is convenient that the email came to light just before this debate.

A cursory glance at social media shows that the email states:

“Just finished my call with DFM. He now understands the background and that Mr McKay has cleared the proposal. So the way is clear to award.”

It seems that the Deputy First Minister signed off the award. Frankly, that adds to the stink surrounding this fiasco.

The minister wants us to move on. Unfortunately, our island communities cannot move on—indeed, many cannot move at all. The ferries are not in operation and the Scottish Government appears to be unable to do anything to help.

Alasdair Allan and Donald Cameron mentioned the breakdown of the Lord of the Isles. There is no capacity in the fleet to allow for the necessary repairs without disruption. That is simply not good enough.

We still have no answer on how the shortfall of capacity to Uist will be made up when Uig harbour is being adapted to fit the new ferry—if it ever arrives. That answer is now urgently required, so I hope that the minister will intervene to ensure that capacity is retained throughout the period.

We need openness and transparency about what went wrong. Neil Bibby said that past employees of Ferguson’s need to be released from their non-disclosure agreements so that we can find out what happened—both during the letting of the contract and thereafter. My colleagues Neil Bibby and Katy Clark said that that information should be released not only to Audit Scotland, but to Parliament and, indeed, the public, because we are talking about their money and their ferries. They deserve to know what went wrong.

The Scottish Government always seeks to shift the blame—to Ferguson’s, to CalMac, to CMAL and now to Derek Mackay—but the blame sits squarely with it. It needs to make good its mismanagement and stop letting our island communities down.

The Scottish Government has also let Ferguson’s down. Instead of protecting jobs, it has put them at risk and is now procuring ferries from Turkey. My heart goes out to the people who work at Ferguson’s.

If the Scottish Government had nothing to hide, it would release workers from the gagging clauses, so that we could see what went wrong and where. Failure to do so means that mistakes will continue to be made—a point that was made by Katy Clark.

We are not talking about a failure of the public sector to provide lifeline services; this is a failure of the Government. The public sector should run lifeline services—the services should not be run for the profit of multinationals, but must be run for the communities that depend on them.

We need full disclosure. Voting for the Labour amendment will provide that.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise for making another point of order, but news has leaked out during the course of the debate—disgracefully, on social media—and we now know that John Swinney was involved in the decision—

Jenny Gilruth (Scottish National Party, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

I said that in my speech.

Graham Simpson (Conservative, Central Scotland)

We now know that John Swinney was involved in the decision to award the contract to Ferguson’s. Should not John Swinney, who was involved, make a statement in the chamber?

The Deputy Presiding Officer

Thank you for your point of order. The issue that was raised was the appearance of the document without Parliament, including the Presiding Officer, being aware.

The substance of Government documents is not a matter for the Presiding Officer, as you well know. The discussion of any statements that might be appropriate in the chamber is a matter for the Government and the Parliamentary Bureau, not for me.