Northern Ireland Assembly, 28 April 2025

389 contributions from 70 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Since our previous sitting, Members will be aware of the passing of Pope Francis on Easter Monday. In the time that has followed, we recognise that many in our community have been in mourning. That has been seen in the tributes that have been paid to Pope Francis by Catholics and those of other faiths and none across Northern Ireland and throughout the world. Indeed, during the Easter recess, many Members expressed their personal reflections on Pope Francis. The Assembly has never previously been sitting when a Pope has died in office. It is right and important, however, that the Assembly have the opportunity to express formally its condolences and to reflect the sorrow and thanksgiving that has been expressed in the community. Following contact between the Speaker's Office and party Whips, I therefore wrote to Members last week to inform them that our scheduled business would be delayed in order to enable this sitting to begin with condolences. I thank officials and Whips for giving of their time over the Easter holidays to put those arrangements in place.

I will shortly open the condolences by calling the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, followed by representatives of each of the other parties, to speak for up to five minutes. After that, I will call all other Members who rise in their place to speak for up to three minutes. After all Members who wish to speak have done so, the sitting will be suspended for approximately 30 minutes, after which we will resume our scheduled business. At the conclusion of today's condolences, I will write formally to Archbishop Martin with a copy of the Official Report. The Assembly will now pay its respects. I call the First Minister.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you, Mr Speaker.]

I had the privilege as First Minister of attending the funeral of Pope Francis on Saturday. It was a honour to join world leaders to pay our respects to a man who defined the best of human values. It is therefore with great sadness that I today express my deepest condolences following the passing of His Holiness Pope Francis. I extend my sympathies to his family and to the people of his homeland, Argentina; to His Excellency Archbishop Luis Mariano Montemayor, the apostolic nuncio to Ireland; to Archbishop Eamon Martin, Primate of All Ireland; to Church leaders across this island; to the Jesuit community; and to Catholics everywhere who are mourning the loss of their spiritual leader.

Pope Francis was a man of deep faith, profound humility and immense courage. He led the Catholic Church through a period of great change, challenge and renewal and did so with grace, integrity and a powerful sense of compassion for all people, particularly the poor and marginalised. He was a Pope of firsts: the first Jesuit to be elected to the papacy, the first Pope from the Americas, the first from the southern hemisphere and the first to take the name Francis, inspired by Saint Francis of Assisi, the patron saint of the poor. Those firsts were not only symbolic; they reflected his vision of a Church that should walk alongside those on the margins and speak with honesty and courage to the challenges of our time. He once described himself as a man from the periphery, and, in many ways, that is how he led. He was the voice of the voiceless in a world increasingly defined by inequality, division and conflict. He spoke in defence of the downtrodden and the displaced and was never afraid to challenge those in power.

Here in Ireland, many hold a deep and enduring reverence for the papacy, but, for Pope Francis in particular, there was a special affection. That bond was made all the more evident during his pastoral visit to Ireland in 2018 as part of the World Meeting of Families. Tens of thousands travelled to see him, and, for many, his visit remains a cherished moment of connection and inspiration. During the visit, Pope Francis met the survivors of clerical sexual abuse. He listened to their pain and publicly acknowledged the institutional failure of the Church and the grave errors and repugnant crimes committed within it. His words were both a reckoning and a call to action. He challenged the Church and society to do more: to listen, to protect and to heal. He also spoke passionately in support of the peace process on this island. He expressed his hope that we would overcome every remaining obstacle and give birth to a future of harmony, reconciliation and mutual trust.

Those words continue to resonate today. They serve as a reminder of the work that remains in building a shared, united and peaceful society for all. Throughout his papacy, Pope Francis was a progressive voice on many global and social issues. He spoke with compassion on LGBTQ rights, calling for respect and inclusion. He denounced the rise of political extremism and the dehumanisation of migrants, and, in recent years, he emerged as one of the most vocal moral authorities condemning the ongoing war in Gaza, calling for an immediate ceasefire, the protection of civilians and access to humanitarian aid. He challenged the indifference of the global community and reminded us that peace is not passive but must be pursued with courage and conscience.

Pope Francis will be remembered as a spiritual leader, a unifier and a man of deep moral conviction. He certainly practised what he preached. He lived simply, led humbly and never stopped advocating for the dignity of all people. His legacy is one of compassion, courage and hope, and his loss will be felt profoundly here in Ireland and across the world. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.

[Translation: May God have mercy on his faithful soul.]

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I offer my sincere condolences to all who are in mourning on the passing of Pope Francis.

His journey was remarkable, from humble beginnings as a caretaker to joining the priesthood and then serving as Pope, breaking precedent to be the first Pope to come from Latin America. The many comments and messages over the past days demonstrate the profound respect and admiration that people held for Pope Francis not only here in Northern Ireland but across the rest of the United Kingdom, in Ireland and across the globe. The many public statements made on his passing were notable for their common themes of compassion, of a humble spirit and of caring for and giving to those in need. I have no doubt that Pope Francis would have wished those principles to be his legacy. They are principles that we can all agree with, regardless of our theology, politics, faith or beliefs; principles that each of us should seek to live by in our public service; and principles that are core to my personal faith.

The loss of Pope Francis will continue to be felt deeply by the Church that he led and will be felt most by the many congregations here and across the world. May God give comfort to all who mourn.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing us the opportunity to take some time, at the commencement of today's sitting, to reflect on and pay tribute to His Holiness Pope Francis after his recent passing.

There are few world leaders who can truly be said to transcend national boundaries. However, as the temporal head of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis was such a leader. His influence and the esteem in which he was held extended around the globe. Moreover, the admiration and respect for Pope Francis extended far beyond the bounds of the Catholic Church and its members. It touched not only Christians of other denominations but those of all faiths and none, who connected with his authenticity, his compassion, his consistency in his beliefs and his commitment to live a life that reflected those values.

In all that Pope Francis said and did, he sought to reflect the priorities, the heart and the humility of Jesus: embracing the marginalised; challenging injustice; being a voice for the voiceless; bringing comfort to the grieving and distressed; and showing generosity to the poor and compassion to the oppressed and displaced. He demonstrated those values not only by visiting marginalised communities and advocating for the rights of the poor and vulnerable in life but by ensuring that every part of his burial rite reflected that humility, from the simplicity of his coffin to its positioning at ground level during his requiem mass.

Pope Francis's papacy broke new ground in 2013 when the then Jorge Mario Bergoglio became the first from the Americas and the southern hemisphere ever to serve as Pope. His papacy was characterised by his humility, by his emphasis on God's mercy and compassion and by a commitment to inter-religious dialogue, to which he had always been committed. A vocal critic of economic inequality, consumerism and environmental degradation, he not only championed the poor, the vulnerable, the excluded, the migrants and the refugees but emphasised the need for action on climate change and socio-economic inequality so that we could transform this world and make it fairer.

Pope Francis, during his pontificate, also implemented and advocated a wide range of reforms, from making women full members of the dicastery in the Roman Curia to promoting greater inclusivity in the Church, including LGBTQIA people and those who were divorced. Whilst not all his progressive stances were fully embraced, he gave people permission to faithfully explore those issues and offered hope to those who were previously cast aside.

Pope Francis prioritised dialogue with other faiths, promoting mutual understanding and respect. That deeply personal commitment to interfaith dialogue was reflected in the range of meetings that he had with leaders across many different religious backgrounds. It also extended to his pursuit of peace and reconciliation more widely in conflict zones across the world, including, most recently, in Ukraine, Gaza and Palestine, where he was willing to challenge world powers and pressed for justice, peace and reconciliation.

Perhaps the most fitting way in which I can conclude my tribute is to quote the words of His Holiness Pope Francis himself, who reflected one of the fundamental truths of the Christian faith and journey. He said:

"Having doubts and fears is not a sin. The sin is to allow these fears to determine our responses, to limit our choices, to compromise respect and generosity, to feed hostility and rejection. The sin is to refuse to encounter the other ... the different ... the neighbor, when this is in fact a privileged opportunity to encounter the Lord. ... to overcome our fears so as to encounter the other, to welcome, to know and to acknowledge him or her."

May God grant his soul peaceful repose, and may his Holy Spirit comfort all those who mourn his passing.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Members will be aware that I am not a member of the Catholic Church, but I do not think that that is any barrier to recognising that, for so many in this country, on this island and, indeed, around the world, Pope Francis was both a cherished leader and an inspiration. For the avoidance of doubt, I should not in any way be considered any sort of expert on religion, so I will refrain from commenting on Pope Francis's theology and, rather, focus on the man.

It goes without saying that every Pope is consequential globally, but few, if any, have been as universally appealing as Pope Francis — John Paul II, perhaps, but, to me, Francis was different again because of his values. He first struck me as somebody different and somebody special on his visit to the United States in 2015.

He arrived at the White House in the smallest of small black cars. There was no motorcade. There were no trappings of an international leader, and he eschewed the trappings that are so embraced by just national leaders. At the White House, he met President Obama, who praised his humility, simplicity, gentleness and generosity of spirit. The president told the Pope that he saw a leader whose moral authority came through not just words but deeds. I do not know about you, Mr Speaker, but that is a lesson for me. Pope Francis set the bar very high.

It would be wrong not to touch on historical institutional and clerical abuse. I acknowledge Pope Francis's personal engagement on the issue. He met victims and survivors on his visit to this island in 2018. Father Timothy Bartlett, who had a key role in planning that visit, spoke last week about a flight from the shrine at Knock to the Mass at Phoenix Park, during which Pope Francis asked for some paper to write notes. I can do no better than quote Father Bartlett, who said that that "penitential act" was:

"the most profound, eloquent and developed apology to those who had been hurt by abuse in the church ... I am absolutely satisfied that historians will look back at that and regard it as one of the most profound apologies ever given on this issue."

Equally, I note the words of Mags McGuckin, that tireless and fearless campaigner with Survivors and Victims of Institutional Abuse (SAVIA), who clearly focused more on the institution of the Church than on the individual.

It has been said many times in the past week or so that Pope Francis was a disruptor. His life, funeral and burial as the Pope are a clear demonstration of that. As we wait to see what follows, I wish the conclave wisdom when it meets.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for facilitating today's session. I offer my and my party's most sincere condolences on the passing of Pope Francis, who was a great man and a great leader but, more importantly, a humble man and a humble leader. He was deeply loved, and he will be missed across Ireland and the world by, first and foremost, members of the Catholic Church but also, as is evident today, by members of other faiths and, indeed, those of no faith. Those of us who are religious and those who are not saw in him someone who embodied, even if they are not Christian, the true nature of Christ. In a world where our culture has grown harsher and more hostile, Francis was a man who represented decency, humanity and gentleness. He was a voice for the voiceless at a time when voices of anger and exclusion have grown louder and louder.

The first and most important example that Francis set was one of simplicity and humility. From the moment that he first stepped on to the balcony overlooking St Peter's Basilica, we saw something different from what we were used to seeing from Popes. There were fewer embroidered vestments and fewer crucifixes of gold and silver. There was a white garment, a plain cross and a humble wave to the crowd that he served. Foregoing many of the trappings of papacy, he remained a pastor at heart. His disdain for pomp and grandeur and anything that separated him from ordinary people, whether they were Catholics, Christians, those of other faiths or no faith, was plain to see. He travelled more than any Pope in history. He seemed to take real energy from meeting, engaging, laughing and connecting with people around the world.

It has already been mentioned that Pope Francis made a particular effort to reach out to communities who had previously been excluded from the Church, most notably, perhaps, the LGBT community. His words early in his papacy about gay people, when he said, "Who am I to judge?", set a new tone for the relationship between LGBT people and the Catholic Church. While it is fair to say that there is still a road to travel with those relations, his words were remarkably healing. He was the first Pope to allow priests to grant blessings to gay couples. He denounced discrimination against gay people, and he clarified that transgender men and women could stand as godparents during baptism.

The name that the media gave him upon his election as Pope was "The first Pope of the New World", and that role came to be more significant. It has already been mentioned that he was the first Pope from the southern hemisphere. He turned the Church's eyes away from simply the cathedrals of Europe and North America towards poorer communities in Central America, Africa and Asia. That influence can be seen in the coming conclave to select his successor. That commitment to the Global South, not just in a theological and ecclesiastical sense but in a policy sense, underwrote his commitment to tackling global poverty and climate change. Just as it was those who had been most distant from the Church to whom Francis offered the warmest welcome, it was those of wealth and power for whom he reserved often the sharpest criticism. In his 'Evangelii Gaudium', which was an encyclical written in the first year of his papacy, he outlined what he saw as the commitments and the Church's responsibility in relation to social injustice. He told the faithful that, just as the commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill", Christians must also say, "Thou shalt not" to greed, inequality and exploitation. He practised what he preached. He rooted out inappropriate and immoral investments in the Vatican Bank, and he re-devoted the Church's attention to causes of charity, conservation and economic and social justice around the world.

He was also not afraid to confront the rise of political extremism, even when those expressing that extremism draped themselves in the banner of Christianity. Francis was himself from an immigrant background, coming from an Italian family who had emigrated to Argentina, and he denounced the hypocrisy of those who claim to be Christian but turn away those fleeing war and persecution. In his final years, Francis devoted himself more and more to the cause of peace, and it has been well said already that Francis spoke movingly about peace in Ireland. In his final days, as his health was failing and even as visiting dignitaries were able to get only a few minutes, Pope Francis had a video call with children in Gaza to offer what must have been hope and comfort to those facing the most extreme suffering. His legacy is one of humility, service and the most profound service to Catholics and to people of all faiths and no faith around the world. May his soul rest in peace.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

Today, like many across Northern Ireland, Ireland and the world, we mark the passing of Pope Francis with sadness and respect. Throughout his life, Pope Francis showed that real leadership is not found in dominance or division but in humility, service and resolute care for those who are often forgotten. His concern for the poor, the displaced and the vulnerable reached beyond politics or political boundaries. He reminded us that, whatever our background, compassion, dignity and truth must always come first. In Northern Ireland, where fear and division have shaped so much of our history, his life offered a different path — one rooted in our shared humanity, not in one that separates us. That message could not be more important today. Too often now, we see fear exploited and mistruth spread. Too often, we see concern for the vulnerable spoken about loudly, yet the real suffering of women, children and the marginalised ignored when it is less convenient to face.

Fear is a real and powerful emotion, and I would never dismiss it. However, when fear is fuelled, when it is turned into suspicion and hatred, and when those who are already struggling are blamed for hardship that they did not cause, we must call it out for what it is. Pope Francis showed that true care for the vulnerable is measured not in warm words but in action, in standing with those who are silenced, in welcoming those who are cast out and in choosing compassion over comfort. His passing also leaves serious challenges for the Catholic Church and its future. The wounds of past abuses remain raw. Trust, once broken, can only be restored through truth, accountability and a deep and lasting commitment to change. That work is essential and urgent, but today, first and foremost, it is time to honour a man who showed what faith in action looks like: quiet, courageous, humble and deeply human. He was not my religious leader, but his great example of humanity is one that I gladly follow.

May Pope Francis rest in peace, and may we, in our communities, politics and daily lives, have the courage to choose kindness over cruelty, truth over easy comfort and hope over fear.

Áine Murphy (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I express my deepest condolences at the passing of Pope Francis — a man who led the Catholic Church with extraordinary humility, compassion and courage. From the moment that he was elected in March 2013, Pope Francis made it clear that he would be a voice for the most marginalised and vulnerable. Throughout his papacy, he showed us what it means to walk alongside those who suffer. He championed not only refugees but the poor, the sick, the elderly and the environment that we share. He called on us to build a world that is rooted not in greed or division but in justice, mercy and peace. He taught that every human being, no matter their circumstances or situation, is valued and cherished. He spoke boldly about the need for peace and dialogue across all cultures and religions. In a world that often turns away from the vulnerable, Pope Francis stood firm. He reminded us that true faith is lived out not in comfort but in compassion and not behind closed doors but in our communities.

Today we mourn his loss. We also give thanks for the example that he set — an example of tenderness, humility and empathy. Let us honour his memory by carrying forward his legacy to protect the dignity of every person and to promote peace and dialogue. May Pope Francis rest in peace, and may his spirit and teachings continue to guide and encourage us all.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I rise to mark the passing of Pope Francis — a figure of immense significance to millions across the world. Alongside my party colleagues, I recognise the profound impact that Pope Francis had on the spiritual lives of thousands of people across Northern Ireland. At such a moment as this, we are reminded of the importance of respecting the sincere beliefs of our neighbours, even where deep theological differences remain. On behalf of the Democratic Unionist Party, I extend my condolences to all those mourning today, particularly our Roman Catholic neighbours and colleagues.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

It is with great sadness that I rise to mark the passing of Pope Francis — a leader whose compassion and courage changed lives, including my own and that of my family. For many years, I felt very distant from the Church: I struggled with its failings and questioned whether it still had a place in my life. However, through the example set by Pope Francis during his papacy, his humility and his focus on social justice, love and mercy, I found my way back to my faith over the past decade. Now, I attend Mass weekly with my young family. That has become a source of great comfort and grounding for us; it is something that I once thought would never be part of our lives again. For that, I will be forever grateful.

That is not to say that the Church is perfect, or that I believe it to be so: far from it. There are still deep issues of hurt within its structures, with which I and many others struggle, and questions that remain unanswered for many people, but Pope Francis never shied away from acknowledging those hard truths. His leadership taught us that real faith requires honesty, humility and a willingness to listen and to change. Throughout his papacy, Pope Francis called us to face not just the internal challenges of the Church but the wider suffering in our world. He named the pandemic of poverty for what it is — a moral emergency — and he urged all of us, including people of faith and people of none, to place the most vulnerable at the heart of our actions. That is something that we all could live with.

Perhaps what touched me most personally was his unwavering message of inclusion. His leadership opened the door wider for those who had felt pushed to the margins, those who had felt as if they were excluded and those who longed for a Church that was built on compassion rather than judgement. As we mourn his passing, I hope that the Church will continue on the path that Pope Francis so fearlessly set — a path that is grounded in humanity, justice and love. If it does, the seeds that he planted in so many hearts will continue to grow for generations to come.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for convening this very important moment in the Assembly. I do not think that there are many in Northern Ireland or across the world who will not remember Pope Francis with deep gratitude.

I will always be thankful for his visit to Dublin in 2018 and the chance that I had to attend the World Meeting of Families. It is a memory that will stay with me.

This is not to be irreverent but, given the complexity of the island that we are from, I will go back to something that happened at that meeting. It was an extraordinary event. Leo Varadkar, the Taoiseach at the time, and the Pope walked from one end of Dublin Castle to the other to take their seats at the front of a packed hall. I have been a person of faith for many years, and I was interested in how the event would go. This is the truth: an incredible beam of light came through a window and right on to Pope Francis. Given the theological background that I come from, that challenged me in a way that made me smile. One of the things that Pope Francis demonstrated was that it is not about religion; it is about faith. We have wrestled with that for too many years in this country. Whether you agree with the theology or not, the example that Pope Francis set was unquestionably good.

He was a different Pope, as was obvious from when he started. Why was he different? He chose to live simply by swapping the grand apostolic palace for a modest guest house; by driving small cars, as Mike Nesbitt mentioned; and even by carrying his own bags. It was clear that he was not about show; he was about service. His heart, as others have outlined today, was always with those on the edges. He made it his mission to reach out to the poor, the migrants and the forgotten. He visited slums, prisons and refugee camps. His vision of a Church for the poor moved the focus away from strict rules towards one of true faith and of mercy. Of course, there was his warmth, whether when kissing babies or — it is an image that really sits with me; I saw it at the weekend and had not seen it before — when a young girl with Down's syndrome made her way up to the altar and, instead of her being shooed away, he took that little girl's hand and gave his message holding her hand.

He was one for taking selfies, and he always spoke from the heart: one might think that he would have made a great MLA. He made the Church feel closer to the people. As was mentioned, for people on this island, particularly those whose lives were irrevocably changed by what the Church did not do to protect them, he sought to make a change. He rightly earned the title "the People's Pope". If he had left a message before he died, I believe that it would have been not to mourn his death but to learn from his example of humility and humanity. Our thoughts are with the people who will miss him: his family, his colleagues and those in the Catholic Church.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Like others in the House, I welcome the opportunity to pay tribute to Pope Francis. There is a saying that, when a man becomes Pope, he dies to himself. He takes on a new name, one that will, in many ways, define what his papacy will stand for. Yet, this Pope did not disappear into the role. He brought more of himself to the role, perhaps more than any Pope in modern history. He lived humbly, ate with the poor, visited prisoners and embraced all as a friend and equal. Wherever he went, he carried a message of mercy, kindness and compassion. When he assumed the papacy in 2013, he carried that message to the world, challenging everyone from the loftiest leader to the simplest shepherd to see in every face their brother or sister.

Pope Francis changed the style of the Catholic Church, but, perhaps even more profoundly, he changed its tone. He met countless victims and survivors of clerical sex abuse and acknowledged the Church's failures. He apologised without condition and moved decisively away from a culture of silence. In 12 years as Pope, through his witness and his words, Pope Francis helped to bring many people back to the Church, not by changing doctrine but by opening new doors to dialogue, presence and understanding. His was a papacy of mercy, and perhaps there is something in there that we can all learn from.

The Catholic Church is in mourning, and we await the convening of the conclave. However, there is hope and prayer in the hearts of many Catholics that whoever is chosen to succeed Pope Francis will carry forward his mission to make the Church a home for saints and sinners alike — humbler, more accepting and more open.

May the soul of Pope Francis now rest in peace, which he so beautifully espoused and so faithfully witnessed to people throughout his life.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

On Easter Sunday morning, I watched on television Urbi et Orbi, the customary papal address that is given to the world to celebrate Easter and the Resurrection. Although, owing to his failing health, Pope Francis had delegated the papal address to Archbishop Diego Ravelli, he blessed the thousands of people in St Peter's Square and the tens of thousands worldwide who watched on television. Not only did Pope Francis wish all who were present a happy Easter but he insisted on being taken amongst the people. He was taken through the crowds, waving to and blessing all who were in attendance. Pope Francis was a Pope of the people to his very last breath.

Although the Pope's declining health was obvious, it still came as a shock to many when his death was announced on Easter Monday. During his 12-year tenure, the "people's Pope" was renowned for his humility, his devotion to his faith, his efforts to open doors in the Church to those who were previously ignored or shunned and his efforts to reach out to the marginalised, the dispossessed and the poor. Pope Francis was a Pope of peace. He had taken his message — the Christian message — to many corners of the world, where he met many political leaders, leaders of other faiths and those of no faith. It is ironic that, on the occasion of his funeral, a productive meeting between the American president and Zelenskyy, the leader of Ukraine, took place in pursuit of a ceasefire in the war between Russia and Ukraine. An end to that war was very dear to Pope Francis's heart, as was his desire for an end to the ongoing war in Gaza.

Pope Francis showed his concern for immigrants: an issue that has worldwide implications. He criticised those countries that shunned migrants. The Pope said that people cross borders looking for a better life. Is that not what we all want for our children? Are we not all the same people? In 2018, when Pope Francis visited Ireland, my wife and I attended the papal mass in Phoenix Park, where I heard the Pope's words of encouragement when he asked us not to be indifferent to the less fortunate. That is something that he exemplified throughout his tenure as Pope and even on the day of his funeral, when he ensured that a special place was reserved for marginalised and homeless people amongst all the world leaders and dignitaries who were in attendance.

As we say in Irish, ní bheidh a leithéid arís ann.

[Translation: we will not see his like again.]

We do, however, hope that whoever is appointed to be the next Pope will follow the same direction in which Pope Francis led his Church. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

[Translation: May his soul be at God's right hand.]

Michelle Guy (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the time that you have given to allow Members the opportunity to pay tribute to the late Pope. It is much appreciated.

The first thing that I want to do, on behalf of myself and my colleague David Honeyford, is to express our sincere condolences to anybody in Lagan Valley and across Northern Ireland who is feeling the impact of that loss and is grieving for the Pope. You have been sincerely in our thoughts. I hope that the way in which Pope Francis's papacy has been remembered and honoured across the world and, indeed, in the Chamber will be a comfort to you.

I was raised and educated in the Catholic faith, but my admiration for Pope Francis is not based on deference. He was someone who embodied and validated for me something that I have said many times, which is that sincere people of faith are the very best people. Those people do not tell you how you should behave but rather show by their lived example their faith and values. Pope Francis offered a kind of leadership that is desperately needed in the world today. He was humble and authentic, showed strength through compassion and was embracing. In the Church that Pope Francis led, everyone was welcome. During his address on World Youth Day in 2023, he said of the Church:

"there is room for everyone. Just as we are. All of us."

He famously reached out to the LGBT community when he said, "Who am I to judge?".

In a world leaning towards so-called strongman-style leaders who gain power by exploiting and preying on the vulnerable and marginalised, Pope Francis prayed for them. He did more than that: he used the power of the papacy to advocate for them. Human suffering and injustice moved him. In his first pastoral visit outside Rome, he visited migrants fleeing Libya, where he denounced the globalisation of indifference. He advocated for peace, challenged the rise in antisemitism and could not be silent on the cruelty in Gaza and the continued, sustained bombing of people there. He spoke with clarity on the reality of climate change and, in keeping with his devotion to the poor, highlighted the disproportionate impact of climate change on the poorest people in our communities. His expression of faith is one that resonated with me, and he restored confidence in the institution of the Catholic Church for many Catholics.

God bless Pope Francis. Thank you for your service, for yours truly was a heart for service. May he rest in peace.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Pope Francis was a man of remarkable humility, compassion and courage. From the moment that the white smoke emerged and he stepped out on to the balcony of St Peter's Basilica, he captured the hearts of millions, not with grandeur but with simplicity. He was a pontiff of the people who walked among the poor, spoke for the marginalised and never shied away from challenging injustice, even within his own Church. He reminded us that faith is not just something that we practise in prayer but something that we must live out in action in how we treat the vulnerable, the neighbour, the stranger and, indeed, the earth itself. His encyclical "Laudato Si'" will stand as a lasting legacy in the fight for climate justice, urging us all to care for our common home.

He was fearless in his calls for peace in Palestine. In Ireland, especially but, as we have seen and heard today, by no means exclusively among the Catholic community in the North, Pope Francis was a source of spiritual strength and guidance. His 2018 visit to our shores rekindled hope, healing and dialogue, a message that we all still definitely need to hear and to give.

Go ndéana Dia trócaire ar a anam uasal.

[Translation: May God have mercy on his noble soul.]

He leaves behind a world where the conflict continues between darkness and light and all of us, whatever our faith — if we have any faith at all — should strive to carry on his torch of tenderness and compassion. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

[Translation: May his soul be at God’s right hand.]

Andrew McMurray (Alliance, South Down)

Mr Speaker, thank you for affording us the time to mark the occasion.

On hearing the news and reading the associated reflections on the death of Pope Francis, I have been thinking about what I would like to have spoken to him about, had I had the chance. He was an ecumenical pope, meeting those from different denominations, including Eastern Orthodox leaders and Muslim leaders. He even met my mother and father's Presbyterian minister.

I would like to have talked to him about building bridges, not walls. On his name, "Francis", after Francis of Assisi — he was a man who loved Creation — he remarked, "These days, we do not have a good relationship with Creation, do we?". I would like to have talked to him about looking after his creation. On his approach to the LGBTQ+ community — "If a gay person seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?" — I would like to reflect his approach in being accepting. He spoke about a healing Church: "Throw a rock in the air, and you will hit someone hurting". I would like to talk more about healing the wounds in our society. He spoke on the impact of consumerism on our environment and climate: "We create vast quantities of wants; yet, there are still many in need. We waste vast amounts of food; yet, people still go hungry". I would like to have spoken to him about that. He spoke of the isms of ideologies and how they can become outdated and be a barrier to peace and progress. I would like to have spoken to him about the limitations of ideological isms. He was a voice for strangers in foreign lands. He epitomised what my grandmother often quotes to me: look after strangers, for, amongst them, there may be angels. I should maybe have included that in the ecumenical section, as my granny is the most Presbyterian person whom I know. I would like to have spoken to him about the stranger in foreign lands.

I will not get the chance to speak to Pope Francis, but, if his theological legacy is one of encouraging us to speak to one another with more grace, that is something that I can subscribe to.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute a tribute to Pope Francis. I put on record my sadness and that of my constituents and those across the island following the passing of His Holiness Pope Francis. In my opinion, the late Pope Francis embodied everything that the world needs right now: the importance of seeking to understand each other, the importance of tolerance and the need to walk in each other's shoes and respect different religions and different cultures. Many, including me, feel strongly that Pope Francis breathed life into the Catholic Church. Pope Francis devoted his life to Christ and chose the name of Francis due to his love of St Francis of Assisi, the patron saint of animals, who is known for his commitment to helping and uplifting the poor. As a practising Catholic, I greatly admire his commitment to building a Church that is based on inclusion and respect, focusing on bringing young people closer to Christ and acting as a progressive Pope who was welcoming of all.

Lastly, having been raised in a place such as this — a place shaped by conflict — I greatly admired Pope Francis's commitment and courage with regard to peacebuilding in the Middle East, recognising that one murdered Israeli or one murdered Palestinian was too many. His commitment to speaking with and praying for persecuted Christians across the globe speaks to the type of man that he was. I hope that his final wish — one that he spoke of until his final days — for peace in the Middle East soon becomes a reality. May he rest in peace.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

I express my condolences on the death of Pope Francis. I have often spoken out about not being a person of faith. I was raised in a Catholic household and went to a Catholic school. Growing up, there was always a picture of Pope John Paul on the wall — now Pope Francis. Many of the grandchildren in my family just assumed that Pope Francis was another family member until they recently saw him on the news. That is what it is like for many households across the world. Particularly in Northern Ireland, it is not unusual to see a portrait of the Pope in your parents' living room, because they feel so closely connected to their faith. It is therefore not difficult for me to recognise and respect the significance not only of Pope Francis but of the position and the office itself.

I speak today on behalf of those who mourn silently, as those in the Catholic Church often do. They mourn through prayer, whether at Mass, at home or in prayer groups. I think of people like my mother, who, like many others across Northern Ireland, travelled to Dublin in 2018 to witness the Pope and had the privilege of travelling to Vatican City. My mother, despite not being able to stand for very long or walk very far, was very determined and waited for many hours just to catch a brief glimpse and get blessed by the Pope. I respect and recognise the importance of the office and the person, but Pope Francis had an impact on all of us who hold the issue of morality so dear, whether we have faith or not. We often talk about change coming from within our communities, but change that comes from leadership is quite significant, in that it acknowledges, recognises and apologises for past mistakes. That was not beyond Pope Francis. My only desire and hope, as a person who is outside the Catholic Church, is that, for the next papacy, the conclave can select someone who will carry on his legacy.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving us the opportunity and time to pay our respects to the late Pope Francis. On the passing of the Holy Father, Ireland bows its head not only in mourning but in deep gratitude for a life poured out in service. He was a man of towering faith. However, his greatness lay not in power but in the tireless labour of love in his defence of the dignity of every soul. He spoke to a world aching for truth, and, in the storm of change, he stood steady as a voice for the unborn, the poor and the forgotten. In lands torn by violence and greed, he became a pilgrim of peace, especially for Gaza and Ukraine.

He was, perhaps, a vehicle for that reconciliation even in death, as Presidents Trump and Zelenskyy met at his funeral. He also spoke on economic injustice, environmental injustice, racism, migration and indigenous rights. He said that war was a defeat for humanity.

Ireland, which itself is no stranger to sorrow, saw in him a mirror of our struggles. He was a man who knew suffering yet never despaired, and he met hardship not with anger but with deep wells of mercy. He called on us, young and old, to rise up and live not for ourselves alone but for a kingdom not built by hands. He championed the sacredness of life, the power of forgiveness and the need for justice rooted in love.

For his steadfast voice, his compassion without borders and his faith that dipped candles in our darkest nights, Ireland gives thanks. He has finished the race. He has kept the faith. May his work bear fruit in every heart he so lovingly tendered. Go ndéana Dia trócaire ar a anam.

[Translation: May God have mercy on his soul.]

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I express my sadness and sympathies on the passing of Pope Francis. I offer my condolences to all those who mourn his loss. Today, we gather to honour the life and extraordinary legacy of Pope Francis, a man who demonstrated the quiet power of humility and compassion. He reminded us through word and deed that a society is judged not by the wealth or eminence of its most powerful but by the dignity afforded to its most vulnerable, downtrodden and bereft.

Francis demonstrated courageous leadership on the biggest issues of our time, such as protecting our environment. He spoke out against poverty and inequality, offering support to refugees and asylum seekers, showing genuine compassion to the LGBT community and condemning the Israeli violence and destruction committed against the Palestinian people. As a world leader, he acknowledged and defended the dignity of every human being, and, in doing so, he brought his Church back to the people.

So many words have been offered here and elsewhere to acknowledge and celebrate the legacy of the late Pope Francis. Ultimately, however, the real tribute to Francis will not come from online posts or speeches in Chambers such as this; his true legacy will be found in the millions of lives that he touched across the globe, in how he sought to tear down the structures of injustice and in the acts of kindness that he inspired across the world in people of all faiths and none. May his memory guide us forwards towards a future marked by compassion, humility, solidarity, love and peace. I measc na naomh go raibh sé.

[Translation: May he be numbered among the saints.]

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you, Members.

The sitting was suspended at 12.53 pm and resumed at 1.25 pm.

Matters of the Day

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Stephen Dunne has been given leave to make a statement on Rory McIlroy's career Grand Slam that fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. If other Members wish to be called, they should indicate that by rising in their place and continuing to do so. All Members who are called will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject. I remind Members that interventions are not permitted and I will not take any points of order until the item of business is finished.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I am delighted to have secured the Matter of the Day to celebrate one of Northern Ireland's greatest ever sporting stars: Mr Rory McIlroy from Holywood. Rory has now achieved the incredible feat of completing golf's Grand Slam of major championship success, the pinnacle of the sport of golf. Just over two weeks ago, when he putted his final shot at the Masters in Augusta to win the illustrious green jacket, Rory became only the sixth person in history to complete golf's Grand Slam of major trophies, having secured victories in the Masters, the US Open, the Open Championship and the PGA Championship. It was a truly incredible achievement that we in Northern Ireland can all be proud of. Rory put his name alongside those of golfing icons such as Tiger Woods and the great Jack Nicklaus. It is a truly phenomenal achievement that will certainly go down in the history books. From the fairways of Holywood Golf Club to the grand stages of Augusta, St Andrews, Pebble Beach and many of the other most decorated golf courses in the world, Rory's journey has been nothing short of inspirational. I have no doubt that there will be much more major success in the not-too-distant future.

Rory was born and raised in Holywood, County Down, and his natural talent was evident from the earliest stage, but talent alone does not build champions such as this: it is matched by discipline, resilience and a fierce and determined drive to succeed. Rory embodied all those qualities, nurtured by his hard-working and loving parents, Gerry and Rosie, his coaches and his many friends, who always believed that the boy from Holywood would one day conquer the golfing world. Conquer it he very much did. There has been immense pride across Holywood, North Down, Northern Ireland and beyond since Rory's remarkable success at the Masters. That was certainly evident on the streets of Holywood in the days following his great success. I was privileged to join in those scenes around Holywood town, where there was such an atmosphere and a buzz about the success of Holywood's most famous son.

Rory's success is about much more than trophies; it is about representing Northern Ireland on the world stage and inspiring generations of young people in every corner of our country, in towns and cities where young boys and girls now believe that no dream is beyond their reach. We have so many excellent golf clubs in every corner of Northern Ireland, including the eight in my North Down constituency, all of which have felt the effect of Rory's success, with golfers of all ages getting clubs or picking them up again, with the many health benefits that that brings.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Time is up.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

In Rory McIlroy, we see the best of Northern Ireland: determination, brilliance and generosity of spirit. We celebrate —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

— not just a golfer but a role model. Congratulations, Rory McIlroy.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Watching Rory McIlroy win the Masters was an emotional roller coaster and a real inspiration for young sports stars on our island, showing that, if you have a dream, you can achieve it. Rory, the first person from our island to win the prestigious green jacket, has shown throughout his career what can be achieved through hard work, grit, dedication and determination. His story is one of an immensely positive and inspiring journey that proves that, no matter how many setbacks you have in life, you can get there in the end. Rory's achievement was a huge moment in global sporting history — completing a career Grand Slam placed him amongst the greatest ever golf players — that has filled everyone at home with great pride and will undoubtedly inspire future generations to chase their dreams.

I also want to recognise Conor Bradley from County Tyrone and Caoimhin Kelleher from County Cork, the two Liverpool stars who won the English Premier League yesterday. Conor Bradley made history as the first player from County Tyrone to win the English Premier League.

Sport has the power to unify and can motivate our young people to excel in life. In a few months' time, we will welcome some of the most iconic names in world sport, along with hundreds of thousands of fans from every corner of the globe, to Portrush for the Open. It presents us with an incredible opportunity to showcase the best of our people and island on the global stage, and I am certainly looking forward to it.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

I thank my North Down colleague for introducing the Matter of the Day.

I rise to recognise the immense sporting achievements of Rory McIlroy, a Holywood man with big dreams and big determination. Two weeks ago, Rory showed not just us but the entire world a masterclass in sportsmanship not just by winning the Masters but by joining the small group of people — now totalling six — who have completed a golfing career Grand Slam.

If you are from North Down or interested in golf more widely, you will be familiar with Rory's story. From humble beginnings, his aspirations started at Holywood Golf Club, where he became the youngest ever member and dreamed of becoming a professional golfer. At age 3, he was able to hit a 40-yard drive, and he practised at home by hitting balls into the family's washing machine — something he demonstrated to us all in his now-famous appearance on local broadcaster Gerry Kelly's show in 1999.

Rory's parents, Rosie and Gerry, worked endlessly to ensure that his talent could be nurtured and supported from a young age. They worked to ensure that their child had the best chance of success. Rory's resilience, talent and determination have set a sterling example for everyone across these islands. He is a fantastic ambassador for Northern Ireland, and everyone across our communities is immensely proud of his achievements.

I finish with Rory's words to his daughter Poppy following his historic win:

"Never, ever give up on your dreams. Keep coming back, keep working hard, and if you put your mind to it you can do anything."

Congratulations from us all, Rory.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

It was obvious from a very early age that Rory McIlroy had a special talent for the game of golf. As my colleague mentioned, from the moment he appeared on 'The Kelly Show', when he was about nine years of age, and chipped a succession of golf balls across the studio into a washing machine, you recognised that that young boy not only had a special talent but had the confidence and the determination to achieve his dreams.

During a TV interview, when he was about 10 years old, he was asked about his golfing goals. He replied with total confidence that he wanted to win all the master titles. When he went to Sullivan Upper School, education became secondary to his wish to hone his skills on the golf course. It would have been easy for the headmaster and the management of the school to insist that he apply himself to his academic work, but, as has been reported, the headmaster found a creative way to relieve him of some of that work and allow him the latitude to improve his skills on the golf course.

In 2011, when he won his first major — the US Open — North Down Borough Council, of which I was a member at the time, was keen to recognise the massive achievement of the young Holywood resident. Two or three suggestions were made, and there was a call for a permanent memorial in Holywood. There were calls for signage to be changed in the town, and a civic reception was granted for him. At that time, Rory was busy and in big demand. He was travelling all over the world. There was not a day when he was not playing golf somewhere, and a lot of those things had to be put on ice; indeed, the invitation to a civic reception stands to this day. At the time, when the council talked about a permanent memorial, I said that it was a bit premature because the young man would probably win a lot more things in the future. I said that we should hold fire on thinking about what sort of permanent memorial should be erected in Holywood, be that a statue, a plaque on a wall or whatever.

As others have said, Rory is a superb sportsperson and ambassador for Northern Ireland and his sport. His advice to all young people that they should follow their dreams is really good advice. As I told the council in 2011, do not be too quick to put up a memorial, because that young man is going to achieve an awful lot more in his lifetime, and I am just as keen to say that today as I was then. Rory will go on to achieve an awful lot more in his sporting life. I look forward to seeing that.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Rory McIlroy, one of the few Irishmen who, as a sportsman, unite the House, is a world-class competitor. He has demonstrated that, if you have a dream and pursue it with passion and a relentless determination to improve every day, you can achieve anything. As a young boy, he told the world that his goal was to win the Grand Slam. What incredible confidence for a young man of that age to have said so. It is incredibly positive and powerful that he has gone on to do it.

In 2007, he turned professional: boom. In 2009, he had his first European Tour win at the Dubai Desert Classic: boom. In 2010, he got his first PGA Tour victory at the Wells Fargo Championship: boom. In 2010, he made his Ryder Cup debut: boom. In 2011, he got his first major championship win at the US Open: boom. In 2016, he won his first FedExCup title: boom. In 2018, he won his first Players Championship title: boom. In 2025, he has become the first European and the first Irishman to win the Grand Slam in golf: boom.

For him to have such achievements is incredible. It is wonderfully positive and powerful that a man from just a few miles from here has done that. It is worth recognising that he is also a huge contributor to charity. Now that the shackles are off, we are all so excited to see where he goes from here. It is so exciting for Rory McIlroy, for his family, for the North, for Ireland and for Europe. Well done, Rory.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It is an absolute honour to get the opportunity to stand in this place and extend my huge congratulations to Rory on a magnificent victory. Indeed, completing the career Grand Slam is an incredible and remarkable thing. I am glad that we have had the opportunity to come here to say a huge well done to Rory.

I recognise those from North Down who are claiming Rory — rightfully so — but it is important to say that people from not only North Down but the entirety of Northern Ireland are incredibly proud of Rory and what he has achieved. As he said himself, his is a testimony of resilience and of getting back up even in the tough times and coming back in order to do an incredible thing.

Rory is such an ambassador for this place. When I was over in DC for St Patrick's Day, a number of people mentioned Rory and golf. It is incredible for Northern Ireland to have that to differentiate us in a very crowded market in which we are trying to get noticed for inward investment and to promote our tourism and everything that is wonderful about this place. Golf is a really good way to do that.

Very recently, I was a member of Holywood Golf Club. I do not have any time any more, so, alas, I have given it up. However, Holywood Golf Club is a fantastic golf club. My husband is still a member there. I put on record the brilliance of Holywood Golf Club and how proud of Rory everyone in that club is. They know more than anyone the incredible hard work that his parents put in to support Rory's achievements from a young age. However, what he has achieved is very much down to his hard work. What an incredible set-up for the Open, which will come to Northern Ireland this summer. There is no better way to promote the wonderful golf operations here, our golf courses and our tourism offering and to set us up for, hopefully, a fantastic Open in Portrush this summer. I also recognise Rory's incredible charitable work.

I am not going to start to name all our incredible sporting stars, but, my goodness, Northern Ireland packs an incredible sporting punch on the international stage. I have no doubt that, per head of population, we are world-leading across so many different fields.

On the back of a very successful Olympics, I have no doubt that yet more sporting success will be coming, not just for Rory but for all our incredible sports stars in so many different fields. A huge well done to Rory: we are all incredibly proud of you.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will briefly reflect on Rory McIlroy's extraordinary achievement, not that I could follow my colleague from Newry and Armagh's vivid contribution and, indeed, the contribution of the deputy First Minister, who talked about her golf game. I am sure that she could demonstrate her drive at Royal Portrush this year in a way that would be good for inward investment.

Rory McIlroy's achievement is extraordinary and historic. It is important to pause and reflect on the scale of achievement that winning the career Grand Slam is. I am one of those people who has tried to play golf, usually with limited success. It is a sport that I, like lots of people, have endeavoured to succeed at, but it is extraordinarily difficult to play at any level, let alone to do so and achieve what Rory McIlroy has achieved. The career Grand Slam is something that only a handful of people have achieved. Only one other person from outside the United States, Gary Player, has won the career Grand Slam. Rory McIlroy is not just the first Irishman or the first person from these islands to win the career Grand Slam but the first European to do so. It is an astonishing achievement, and he has done it by the age of 35.

What is so important, memorable and, frankly, inspiring about Rory's achievement is that he did it after coming back from repeated knocks. We all know that Rory won a series of majors very early in his professional career: he won the US Open, the British Open and the PGA Championship in quick succession. He then had more than a decade in which he did not win a major, which frustrated lots of golf fans, particularly those from this part of the world. For the average punter who plays at Holywood Golf Club, Downpatrick golf club, Belvoir Park Golf Club or Ormeau Golf Club — wherever the course is — golf has a particular ability to get inside the head. Whether you are world number one or someone who is playing in the monthly medal at your local club, doing what you need to do on the golf course requires reserves of resilience. Rory McIlroy came back from repeated setbacks, including some fairly traumatic ones, such as that at Augusta in 2011. He showed resilience, courage, determination and focus to become the first Irishman to win the Green Jacket and the first European to win the career Grand Slam: an extraordinary achievement.

He is an extraordinary ambassador for this place — Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland — and we all owe him a debt of gratitude. We are all so proud of him and look forward to his, hopefully, lifting the Claret Jug this July at Royal Portrush. I should not have said that, because, in doing so, I have probably scuppered his chances, but we are delighted for and hugely proud of Rory McIlroy.

Peter Martin (DUP, North Down)

We are here to congratulate Rory on his recent win and, as the leader of the Opposition just pointed out, on his becoming one of only six people to have achieved a modern career Grand Slam. That is an incredible achievement. He is from my constituency, so, as the DFM mentioned, I am going to take ownership of him.

I will make some personal comments. Golf is an incredibly tough and unforgiving sport. I am a golfer, having played since I was very small. My grandfather taught me how to play golf. He was a Brethren preacher, and my mother tells a story of how in her entire life she never heard her father, John, say a naughty word, apart from when he was on Clandeboye golf course. It is a really tough sport, and Rory has done exceptionally well. He is an inspiration for young golfers from Northern Ireland. We are congratulating him on achieving a career Grand Slam, but how he conducts himself off the fairway is a credit to him and his parents. If Rory is watching this, I say this to him: if you are ever in Holywood and are up for a game, I am available. We do have other courses in North Down. Holywood has been talked about a lot, but the courses at Clandeboye, Bangor and Donaghadee are all available. Twenty-five years ago, I played off 22, so if he thinks that I am a threat or that I might beat him, he should know that it is highly unlikely.

What Rory has achieved for this country and golf and the inspiration that he is to young people and golfers is absolutely astounding. We look forward to Portrush, later this year, and — I do not want to scupper his chances — Rory, hopefully, adding more silverware to his already significant collection.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you, Members, for those tributes to a remarkable sportsman and ambassador for Northern Ireland.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Jonathan Buckley has been given leave to make a statement on the UK Supreme Court ruling on the legal definition of a woman, which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. The normal rules apply.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

On 16 April, the UK Supreme Court made a unanimous landmark ruling that, under the Equality Act 2010, the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex. It represented a moment of truth, clarity and common sense. How ridiculous have things become that it took the UK Supreme Court to rule on the definition of a woman, something that the vast majority of people already knew the answer to? It is sad but true to say that common sense on gender realities had been kidnapped and then hijacked by a small yet extreme ideological minority, aided and abetted by parties such as Alliance, Sinn Féin and the SDLP, which pressurised businesses, civil Administrations and the wider public into accepting a version of reality — their version — that denied all common sense. Women who dared to speak out about their concerns were branded bigots, hounded out of their jobs and silenced in the public discourse. For years, women have fought for legal protections based on the material reality of their sex, only to be insulted in the House by Members in complete denial of reality.

Recently, I asked the First Minister, Michelle O'Neill, whether she agreed that biological men should not be in women's safe spaces, in particular, women's changing rooms and women's sport. She could not answer. The Alliance Party offered full-throated support, and together they degrade women, and what for? To promote a warped and dangerous ideology that allowed men to invade women's changing rooms and to steal women's sports titles and that pushed the NHS to prescribe dangerous gender drugs to vulnerable young girls. Is that your vision of progressive politics?

The fight for justice by ordinary, everyday women was not fictional. It was rooted in the lived experiences of women who demanded to be seen, heard and safeguarded. Members, let this be a turning point: a moment when the nation reaffirms its commitment to truth, clarity and common sense. It is not bigotry to recognise difference.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

It is certainly not cruelty to recognise accuracy.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The issue that is the subject of this Matter of the Day, in my opinion, needs to be approached with compassion, understanding and dignity. We are all aware of the British Supreme Court ruling on 16 April, which applies to England, Scotland and Wales. Sinn Féin is committed to having an inclusive society based on equal rights and opportunities for all our citizens in all our diversities. It is important that we have effective equality protections that work to protect everyone in our society as we carefully examine the details of the British Supreme Court ruling in that context. It is really important, in the first instance, to await guidance from the Equality Commission in light of its consideration of whether there are any implications here of the British Supreme Court ruling.

I appeal to all Members who speak on this issue, should it be in the Chamber, in the media or outside, to remember that we are talking about human beings. We are talking about our brothers, our sisters, our cherished family members and cherished friends. Regardless of how they define themselves, they deserve the same love, equality, respect and compassion that we claim to strive for on behalf of every citizen. That should be the watchword, regardless of how people define themselves or whom they love.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

First, I want to say that we do not want people to be afraid for their future. We do not want people to wake up and be concerned about how the ruling will impact on their lives. That is, however, already happening. These decisions affect people's lives. The ruling cannot be seen in isolation or in a vacuum; instead, it was made in the context of extreme anti-trans rhetoric, which is on the increase in public discourse, including within and outside this House. We have seen those divisive culture wars, filled with misinformation, result in real-world consequences, with hate crimes against the trans community rising in recent years across the globe.

The Supreme Court ruling must not be used to fuel division or hostility. The Supreme Court itself emphasised that it should not be seen as a victory for one group at the expense of another. As politicians, we have a responsibility to ensure that no group feels further marginalised or vulnerable because of the decision. Despite what some media reporting suggests, this debate is not about political hypotheticals but about real people who now feel uncertain as they go about their day-to-day lives — people who are living in fear.

We in Alliance are committed to advancing equality and human rights for all, including women, girls and the LGBTQIA+ community. We will continue to stand up for those rights and for the dignity and well-being of trans and non-binary people. Despite what some may say, the Supreme Court ruling has not provided clarity on its real-world implications. The quick guidance that was issued by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) in England and Wales did not provide clarity; instead, it raises real-world circumstances that could be abused. Any response in Northern Ireland should be carefully considered. It is now time, however, for positive engagement in good faith. I want to assure every member of the trans community that I respect you, that Alliance respects you, and that we will do what we can to ensure that you do not live in fear.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

Women who want their own spaces, sports, groups, refuges, hospital wards or toilets should never be viewed as controversial. It is not controversial for a woman to ask for private care from somebody of the same sex — meaning biological sex — or, if they fall foul of the law, to have an intimate search conducted by someone of the same biological sex and with only a person of the same sex present. Indeed, women police and prison officers should not be forced to conduct intimate searches of a biological male purely because that individual has a gender recognition certificate. This is about privacy, safety and dignity, but, above all, it is about women's rights.

The Supreme Court ruling was clear as far as the Equality Act 2010 is concerned. Sex means natal sex or sex at birth, and a gender recognition certificate does not change that. The trans community remains a protected group under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and equality legislation in Northern Ireland, so those in that community have their protections. The Supreme Court ruling was not about them. Of course, it has an effect, but the ruling was about women's rights. Although the Equality Act 2010 does not apply to Northern Ireland, the Supreme Court does, and its findings have an effect here. The Equality Commission said:

"our initial view is that the judgment is likely to be deemed by our industrial tribunals and courts to be highly persuasive and, consequently, it is likely to be followed in cases where similar issues arise."

We now need clear, detailed guidance from the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. I will quote the Equality and Human Rights Commission's interim guidance, because I got lambasted for using these terms in a previous debate:

"trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women's facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men's facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities".

The statement gives the same guidance for schools. It goes on to state:

"A women-only or lesbian-only association should not admit trans women (biological men), and a men-only or gay men-only association should not admit trans men (biological women)."

We are in a difficult place now, and what we need is for the Equality Commission to speak to our Executive and for Ministers to lay out what we are going to do. We need cool heads, but, at the end of the day, this is about women's rights.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

Let us focus on women's rights.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The Supreme Court's judgement has come after much controversy and debate on the subject, which has become tragically toxic and toxically divided. It has placed in toxic and false opposition the hard-fought rights of women, and, indeed, the continued fight for women's safety from violence, which is a subject that we have debated in the Chamber, against the rights of trans people to be acknowledged as human beings who are worthy of basic dignity, courtesy, respect and accommodation. Those two sets of rights do not have to be in competition with or opposition to one another.

I acknowledge that the court judgement has been made and that there will be consequences on the other side of the Irish Sea. Public bodies here will scrutinise and examine that judgement. I say that first, but I also say this: the judgement does not render invisible or meaningless the lives and experiences of trans people. Trans people are real people. The Member opposite is shaking his head. It is really important —.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

This is about women.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Frankly, we need to move on from the idea of dehumanising and demeaning trans people as if they do not exist and their experience is somehow to be dismissed and trivialised. I and my party have always said that such subjects need to be talked about sensitively. Where there are specific and legitimate questions, whether they are on single-sex spaces or sports, we can have a serious debate, but I will not debate trans people's existence and their right to basic respect and dignity. Some of what we have heard today from the opposite Benches has, again, drifted into stigmatising and humiliating those people. It is somewhat ironic to hear Mr Buckley and others in his party portray themselves as great feminists and fighters for women's rights. Women in this society had to fight for a long time to secure access to basic rights, bodily autonomy and, specifically, court judgements.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

You do not respect all life.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

OK, but there are trans people who will be anxious about what this judgement means for them, and to those people I say this: I acknowledge that this is a difficult time. You have rights, which will be protected. I and others in my party will continue to acknowledge you as human beings who are deserving of basic courtesy, rights and respect. That has to be at the forefront of everything that we do.

By the way, no one has ever denied biological sex. Trans people have to confront the reality of biological sex in their lives, because that is how they transition, so that is an absurd canard thrown up by Members opposite. Where there are issues and questions about single-sex spaces, I hope that, in future —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

— we can debate them in a more level-headed, humane and serious way than we have today.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

This item of business will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be Peter Martin. We have about eight seconds before 2.00 pm.

The business stood suspended.

Oral Answers to Questions — The Executive Office

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Stewart Dickson is not in his place.

Michelle Guy (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

2. Mrs Guy asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the role that social media platforms can play in tackling hate and ending violence against women and girls. (AQO 1886/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The online environment is becoming increasingly unsafe for women and girls. Online abuse normalises harmful behaviour and can have long-lasting impacts. The ending violence against women and girls strategic framework recognises the need to address online harm. We are continuing to work with partners to address all forms of violence, abuse and harm experienced online. Ofcom has responsibilities for addressing harms to women and girls online, and junior Ministers recently met Ofcom officials to discuss their work and their ongoing plans to help protect everyone online, including women and girls.

A number of social action initiatives have sought to harness the power of social media to change attitudes and to tackle violence against women and girls. That includes the Power to Change campaign, which we jointly launched with the PSNI and the Department of Justice earlier this year. It includes targeted messaging on social media that urges men and boys to help play their part in effecting a cultural and societal shift.

Michelle Guy (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, First Minister, for the response. The issue of smartphone access and digital devices and the associated impact of social media is a real concern in our communities. Does the First Minister recognise the frustration of many that the Executive Office refuses to take the lead on developing online safety strategies and policies in Northern Ireland?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

No, I think that we all need to work together. It is a societal problem that we have to address together. The Member might be aware that Ofcom is consulting on draft guidance that sets out nine areas where tech firms should do more to impose online safety. That is the right way in which we need to engage with the issue. As I said, our junior Ministers met Ofcom recently and discussed these very issues, so I suspect that we will hear a lot more about that in the coming weeks and months. It is really important that we have that strategy in place, and I am glad that that was one of the first strategies that we were able to publish. We will all very much welcome the Ofcom draft guidance.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

At a recent Question Time, I asked the First Minister, when it comes to safeguarding women and young girls, whether she agreed with me and the vast majority of women, who believe that biological men should not be in women's safe spaces, particularly women's changing rooms. The First Minister did not answer me. In light of the Supreme Court ruling that, in terms of sex and gender, it is biological sex that defines a woman, I ask the First Minister this: will you still not answer the question? Is it yes, or is it no? What is your view on the Supreme Court ruling?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

First, I have said this to the Member before and will repeat it: we need to be very sensitive about these issues. They are complex issues, and we need to work our way through the outworking of the Supreme Court ruling. We are all aware of the headline — you have just spoken about it in the Chamber — but you forgot to acknowledge any sensitivity around the issue at all, particularly for our trans community, who are feeling quite attacked right now and are feeling under attack in their own community and society. Let us be mindful of that.

Let us work our way through the ruling from the Supreme Court, which does not cover here, because it refers to the Equality Act 2010. We have sought advice from our officials. We await the Equality Commission's ruling and guidance, because that will be important for everybody in how we respond to this in a wider way when it comes to any relevant issue. I encourage a bit of sensitivity in the Chamber. I encourage people to work towards an inclusive society. I encourage us all to demonstrate some compassion for the LGBTQ community right now.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The First Minister will know that tackling violence against women and girls requires a whole-government and whole-society approach. Can the First Minister outline how our young people are being engaged with in the process and the strategy?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thank you for that. You are absolutely right that it requires that whole-of-government and whole-of-society approach if we are to end the scourge of violence and misogyny towards women and girls, whether that be online, at work, in school or at home. We all have to continue to do everything that we can.

We need to make space to ensure that the voices of our young people in particular are heard. Today's world, in which young people are growing up, is complex: things are very different from when I was growing up. I very much value our strategy team's work with the Education Authority (EA) and the youth engagement team over the past two years to build that wider societal approach. It has very much listened to and engaged with youth panels across the North to give them a voice in the work that we develop to respond to this societal issue. We have also established youth reference groups, which will be crucial. The Commissioner for Children and Young People, the Secondary Students' Union, the Youth Forum, Girlguiding Ulster and a raft of young people's groups are coming together to help to shape the strategy. The Member may have seen the Power to Change campaign. Young people were very engaged with that and helped us to devise that work.

Collaboration will be key. For my part, I will continue to engage with young people and others to amplify their voice and empower our young people to speak up. Only by speaking out and highlighting the issues can we make the difference that, I am sure, we all want to see in our society.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

First Minister, will you confirm whether a review of the 2020-25 online safety strategy is planned? If it is, will you ensure that it includes a specific focus on ending violence against women and girls online? Have you had any recent conversations with Ofcom on those matters?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said, our junior Ministers met Ofcom in the past number of weeks to chat about the work that they are doing around the strategy and what that looks like. Ofcom has set out three objectives — they are very much geared towards online providers — for what, it hopes, the draft guidance will achieve: to give providers a detailed and holistic framework for understanding harms to women and girls online; to set out practical, ambitious steps that providers can take to secure women and girls' safety online; and to encourage service providers to take action to achieve a safer online environment for women and girls. It has set out nine actions that, essentially, say to technology firms, "This is what you must do", and we all can then hold them to account. It intends to publish that guidance by the end of this year and then publish an assessment of how the providers have responded to the recommendations. It will do that in the first half of 2027, which will be about 18 months after publication. Hopefully, we will then start to see positive changes.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Ms Hunter just asked a question, and, during the First Minister's response, two Members walked in front of Ms Hunter. That is not protocol in the House. If Members come in late, I encourage them to observe protocol and not to walk in front of Members who are engaging.

Diane Forsythe (DUP, South Down)

3. Ms Forsythe asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the role of the voluntary and community sector in public-sector transformation. (AQO 1887/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The reform and transformation of our public services is an Executive priority, as laid out in the Programme for Government. The voluntary and community sector is, obviously, a key partner in helping to address the challenges facing our public services here. Our officials regularly engage with the sector in the planning and delivery of our priorities, and we would expect other Departments to do likewise. We have also been very clear that we want to achieve delivery, which will require collaboration with our key stakeholders, including the community and voluntary sector, which has a vital role to play in all of the work that we drive forward.

Diane Forsythe (DUP, South Down)

As the chair of the all-party group (APG) on voluntary and community sector, I welcome the First Minister's recognition of the sector's value. As we move to public-sector transformation pieces, will there be an attempt to quantify some of the return on investment from some of our voluntary and community sector organisations? For example, Extern and NIACRO recently gave the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) specific examples of how a small amount of funding to them has significant value in reducing adult reoffending.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We have had no specific conversations about that measurement piece, but it makes good sense. Having established our delivery unit and as we move to transforming public services, we have to open our eyes to the things that work well in society. Often, from my experience — it sounds as though it is also your experience — the community and voluntary sector provides services that would cost an awful lot more, if they were brought back into the control of Departments. If we can find ways to ensure that we properly capture what the community and voluntary sector does for what we invest, we can perhaps ramp that up where it works best. Certainly, I can take that away, and we can discuss it as we advance our delivery unit's work even further.

Pádraig Delargy (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Will the First Minister detail her thoughts on the benefits of the community and voluntary sector partnering with government in delivering services that support and build communities?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said, we can all attest to the value of the community and voluntary sector in our constituencies. It is very much the lifeblood of our local communities, and the work that it does on the ground day to day really makes a difference to people's lives. I concur with the Member and commend the work of our community and voluntary sector. I see it every day in my constituency. I see what is done at a local level, whether it is through the GAA or other sporting organisations, community groups or residents' associations. There are so many charities out there. There are senior citizens' groups and groups that work with our migrant and newcomer communities. There is so much to be appreciative of in our society. All of that helps to build a better and more wholesome society for us all.

Looking forward, particularly given the challenging fiscal climate that we face, we need to continue to learn from what works well and replicate and do more of it, working in tandem with the community and voluntary sector on how we can better design public services. I am certainly up for having that conversation.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I very much agree with the sentiments that the First Minister has raised in response to the question. One of the issues that we all hear from the community and voluntary sector is that of sustainability and funding pressures. What role can you, as First Minister, play in ensuring the continued delivery of community and voluntary sector organisations into the future?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We will continue to work with the sector — that is vital. We have to have open communication, because the sector can help us so much in what we want to achieve, particularly when it comes to the transformation agenda and doing things better. I will certainly continue to work with NICVA as the representative organisation and with many others. You have only to look at what is delivered by the voluntary and community sector across a raft of services. Sure Start is a great example of the community and voluntary sector working with the Department, as is the work in the health improvement area. In our Department, we have introduced a pilot programme that is about collaboration test-and-learn pilots to explore how we can better place collaborative working between Departments and the community and voluntary sector. If that model of testing works, I would like us to pick it up and run with it. There is an openness on our part to engage and to continue to listen to those that provide services on the ground, because, ultimately, they are best placed to give us advice on how things are or are not working.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

First Minister, you mentioned the reform and transformation unit. We have not heard that much about the detail of its working. Has it been set up? When will the House have a detailed update on its work?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is not just one area of work; we have identified a range of areas of work. The interim public-sector transformation board is already established. It is a non-statutory independent body, the primary role of which will be to advise and make recommendations on how to utilise funding that has been ring-fenced for transformation. A sustainability plan has been agreed by the Executive, and, recently, as part of the reform package, Minister O'Dowd announced £129 million for six transformation projects. We hope to make further announcements on that very soon. We have established a delivery unit in our Department. You can see that there is a transformation and reform package that will bear dividends over the weeks and months ahead. In addition, there is the work on how AI can be used and harnessed more, another area on which we are focused.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

4. Mr Kelly asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on plans for a future Urban Villages initiative. (AQO 1888/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, junior Minister Reilly will answer the question.

Aisling Reilly (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

We know the significant and positive impact that the current Urban Villages programme has had on communities, working through successful delivery of the remaining capital projects, which will increase access to shared-space facilities and continue to promote integration across the five Urban Villages areas and beyond.

We have set out the strategic direction for Urban Villages. It includes completing the current Urban Villages plan and securing the sustainability of capital projects by supporting those community organisations that are taking forward large capital projects.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire shóisearach as a freagra.

[Translation: I thank the junior Minister for her answer.]

Before I move on, may I bend procedure, just a little, in order to welcome the Holy Cross Boys' Primary School's school council and teachers who are in the Public Gallery?

Will the junior Minister detail the criteria that will be required to be met in order to be part of phase 2 of the Urban Villages programme?

Aisling Reilly (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his question. I echo his welcome to the school. As we come to the end of phase 1 of the Urban Villages initiative, it is worth reflecting on the fact that the project has supported a range of community-led, cross-cutting and capital projects that have made a real difference to improving good relations. Along with junior Minister Cameron, I have visited many of those projects. I know that the Member has been supportive of that work in his North Belfast constituency.

It is also worth noting that, to date, the Urban Villages programme has delivered approximately £50 million of capital investment and £15 million of revenue investment. Over 58 capital projects have now been completed. They had over 417,000 users, delivered 1,800 programmes, activities and training courses, and created 923 construction and administrative jobs. We are planning for a future Urban Villages programme that will include joined-up delivery between Departments and enhance the linkages that the Urban Villages programme has made in supporting ministerial priorities. We have also established a working group to take forward the development of phase 2 of Urban Villages. That will include establishing the criteria for the future programme. As I have said, once the criteria have been agreed, we will of course come to the Chamber to update Members.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

5. Mrs Dodds asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the tariffs recently announced by the president of the United States of America. (AQO 1889/22-27)

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

13. Mr Butler asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the impact that the tariffs on goods entering the United States of America will have in Northern Ireland. (AQO 1897/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 5 and 13 together. The announcements that the US Administration made on 2 April set significant tariffs on goods entering the US market from over 60 countries and included 20% tariffs on EU goods and 10% on UK goods. Although President Trump has since announced a 90-day pause for countries hit by higher US tariffs, the measures have sent shock waves through the international economy, creating concern and a lot of uncertainty for businesses and Governments worldwide.

We have concentrated on building a globally competitive and outwardly focused economy. The US is an important trading partner for us. In 2024, alone, we exported £1·7 billion of goods to the US and imported £750 million of goods. Any actions that create barriers to trade with that significant market are always going to be unwelcome. We have therefore been working closely with our Economy Minister to understand what the announcements mean for businesses here, and, as international trade is a reserved matter, we continue to engage at political and official level to ensure that our economy and businesses here are protected as far as is possible. We also continue to engage with the Irish Government.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the First Minister for her answer. It was a very general answer, however. Should President Trump re-impose the tariffs, Northern Ireland will be hugely disadvantaged as a result of its being in the single market for goods and having to apply the EU customs code. We will therefore be liable to pay duty on US goods coming into Northern Ireland. What specific measures has the First Minister suggested to the UK Government that they might employ in order to protect Northern Ireland?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The question was more of a general question. Let me be clear: tariffs will serve none of us well. They are bad for business and create uncertainty. They can lead to so much uncertainty that we could end up with a hike in inflation. It is therefore not a good scenario for anybody. What is important right now is diplomacy, conversation and identifying our local priorities. Working with the Economy Minister, we have done so. We also continue to engage with the British Government and the Government in Dublin, and we have had such engagement over the past number of weeks. Unfortunately for us, international trade remains a reserved matter, so we need to continue to engage with Jonathan Reynolds, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, to work out a strategy as far as one is possible. To be clear to the Member, I will tell her that the Economy Minister has advised that she has set out five key asks, because we have a particular circumstance here that needs to be recognised, and we have made that point. We are going to go back to that when the 90-day pause comes to an end. When we get back to the conversations leading up to that, we have asked that they keep our unique circumstances in mind. That is to the fore of all the conversations that are had, and we made that case to the British Government and the Irish Government. That is in relation to any negotiation about what might happen next and any countermeasure that may be brought forward. Caoimhe has also asked for the Governments to act in concert to minimise any divergence between Britain and the EU. She asked for a properly resourced advice service for local businesses because there is so much uncertainty. People are anxious, and they need to understand how the tariffs affect them. She held a round table with businesses here to understand their implications and to advance that conversation with the Governments.

The fourth thing is to improve existing trading initiatives such as the reimbursement and labour schemes —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Time is up. Minister, your two minutes are up.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

OK — and that it will bring forward an economic package that protects our international competitiveness.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I call Cathal Boylan.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you, Mr Speaker.]

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Apologies. Robbie Butler first.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I will let you off with that one, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much.

I thank the First Minister for her answer. She will, I am sure, agree with me that businesses have had to bear, through the Windsor framework, the pressures of Brexit and getting their duties paid back through the HMRC reimbursement scheme and the customs duty waiver scheme. The Secretary of State said that that might be the recourse for businesses if the tariffs apply in Northern Ireland. Does the Minister agree that that is not a good or useful tool to use and that businesses without money for up to three months are put under undue pressure? Has the Executive Office been involved in any conversations in that regard?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That is something that the Economy Minister also raised with her counterpart. We do not know where this is going to end, but, if we find ourselves in a position at the end of this whereby, for example, you have to apply for the reimbursement, that needs to be simplified. They need to make it easy. Businesses cannot wait for three months to get that money back, so we need to find a way. That is what we have encouraged to happen in all our conversations; namely that, if we get to that juncture, it needs to be a simplified process whereby businesses can trade without barriers or, at least, with limited barriers. The point that the Member makes is one that we have already recognised and taken on board.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Brexit has had a huge negative impact socially and economically here. With regard to lessons learned, will the First Minister detail what work is ongoing in response to the US tariffs to protect the regional and all-Ireland economy?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thanks. We all witnessed the shock waves that arose as a direct result of the tariff announcements, which have created much uncertainty and concern. Businesses are struggling, and they find themselves back in the situation of not knowing what is going to happen next. One thing that businesses dislike more than anything is uncertainty because it makes it very difficult to plan.

Throughout this crisis, the deputy First Minister, Caoimhe as the Economy Minister and I have engaged directly at Prime Minister level, Tánaiste level and Secretary of State level. We will continue to ensure that the voice of our local economy is heard. I take the Member's point about the all-island economy and the need to ensure that we have frictionless trade. You can see the growth of the all-island economy over recent years, and we want that to continue. I want to see free-flowing trade across these islands without barriers and interruptions so that our businesses, our economy and our people can flourish. We will continue to work as we navigate through this period dominated by uncertainty.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

There is great instability and uncertainty in global trade due to the Trump tariffs. Does the First Minister recognise the ongoing damage caused by trade friction of any kind and the need to maximise the benefits of Northern Ireland being able to trade at least for goods in all directions as freely as possible?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I agree with you absolutely. We should all work towards a situation where there are no barriers to trade across these islands, on this island and between our islands. That is where we should all aim to be, and we have highlighted that in every meeting and conversation that we have had. In May, we have a bilateral with Keir Starmer — I cannot remember the title of the meeting — when we will have another opportunity to highlight the particular challenges here because we have the Windsor framework and an added layer of complexity.

We will have to try to work our way through it, particularly around rules of origin, and minimise any barriers to trade. I do not want to see barriers to trade for anybody. I want our economy to grow, jobs to be created — well-paid jobs — and people to have money in their pockets. We will do everything that we can to ensure that that is the case.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

6. Mr McNulty asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they have any plans to convene a citizens' assembly to consider any impacts arising from constitutional change. (AQO 1890/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There is no joint agreement on the issue.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

First Minister, you have been highly vocal in public about the goal of achieving Irish unity, yet, with your hands on the levers of power in the North, you have taken few, if any, tangible steps towards formally advancing preparations for unity. The Irish Government, through the Shared Island unit, have pumped billions of euros into uplifting and uniting communities North and South. Why are you, when in power, treading water on Irish unity and a citizens' assembly? Why has there been such a gap between your words in public and your actions in government?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is more a question of why you are so surprised that there is no agreement on that issue in this office. It is no secret to anybody that I am an Irish republican who wants to unite the people of the island. It is also no secret to anybody that the deputy First Minister is a unionist who wants to maintain the link to the Union. That adds complexity to the office that we inhabit.

I have personal views on constitutional change. I think that we will all be better served by Irish unity, uniting the people of the island, ending the divisions of the past and creating a more inclusive society and a more prosperous economy. I encourage the Member to use his energy to work with me to achieve that as opposed to making silly points that are far from reality, because there will not be agreement in this office on the issue.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

A recent report from the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) provides further evidence that, compared with the North, the Southern part of our island has higher wages, stronger economic growth and better living standards. Does the First Minister agree that that shows that partition has failed and that it is negatively impacting on our quality of life, trade, economic productivity and growth?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes. As I said in my previous answer, there is no agreement in the Executive Office on the issue. I have also read that report and very much welcome more such reports coming into the public, which in itself encourages conversation and creates an opportunity for people to have hard data on what that looks like and the benefits of unity across the island. The report highlights the folly of partition and how it has failed every citizen who lives here. I very much welcome the report that has been published and look forward to more and more people engaging on the topic as we move through the weeks, months and years ahead.

The best thing that we could all do is work together, plan and prepare and have the maturity to debate what the health service would look like, what education would look like, how we can better people's lives, how we can improve people's standard of living and how we can grow our economy. That is the conversation that I want us to have. It is increasingly happening organically anyway, but, obviously, we want to see more of it in the time ahead.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

7. Ms Sheerin asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the recruitment of commissioners as provided for by the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022. (AQO 1891/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In line with the requirements of the Identity and Language Act 2022, we are jointly responsible for the appointment of the Irish language commissioner, the commissioner for Ulster Scots and the Ulster-British tradition and the director and members of the board of the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression. We are committed to establishing the three new bodies and to making the appointments as soon as possible. We are very pleased to announce that the competitions launched on 10 March and closed on 28 March. It is anticipated that interviews will take place over the summer.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin.

[Translation: I thank the Minister for that answer.]

Can you provide an update on the current position on each appointment as per the Act?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes. As I said, the competitions to recruit the commissioners launched on 10 March and closed on 28 March. I am pleased to say that two of the panels have already completed their sift of applications: on 11 April for the Irish language commissioner and on 16 April for the Ulster-Scots and British tradition commissioner, with the first panel for the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression due to complete on 9 May. We are making good progress.

The Irish language proficiency assessment is planned to take place on 6 May. It is anticipated that the presentation and interview stage will be carried out on 20 June. For the Ulster-Scots and Ulster-British tradition commissioner, it is anticipated that the presentation and interview stage will take place on 5 June. I look forward to getting to the point where, after the interviews that are to be held over the summer, hopefully, we will be able to appoint. It has taken a bit of time to get here, but I am glad that we are at this juncture.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

That concludes listed questions to the Minister. We now move to topical questions.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

T1. Mr O'Toole asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether, given the context in which they and their Executive colleagues have consistently, persistently and understandably blamed austerity for constraints on public spending, right down to small sums of money, including their colleague the Infrastructure Minister saying that the £5,000 pedestrianisation of Hill Street could not happen because of that austerity, they are comfortable with their colleagues spending tens of thousands of pounds on five-star hotels and whether, since taking up her role, the First Minister has stayed in a five-star hotel at taxpayer expense. (AQT 1241/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There are two points that I would like to make about what you have just said. First, austerity is a real thing. Austerity has happened.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I know.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, I know you do. That is why you signed the letter that we sent collectively to the British Government when we first formed the Executive. Austerity has hurt us badly. We are dealing with a difficult financial climate as a direct result, and we continue to do so under the new Labour Government.

People should always be very prudent with public money. Everything needs to be value for money. It needs to be proofed, and you need to be able to stand over every decision that is taken. I do not seek out five-star hotels. I do not seek to waste public money.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

You may not seek it out, First Minister, but you know that your colleague Conor Murphy, who is a former Economy Minister and Finance Minister, stayed in the Fullerton Hotel in Singapore, which says on its website that it reflects:

"the full-blown colonial confidence of its builders".

It cost more than £6,000 for him to stay there, which is much more than the cost of pedestrianising Hill Street.

We all agree that austerity was bad, First Minister, but I asked you specific questions. Are you comfortable with your ministerial colleagues staying in five-star hotels? Have you stayed in a five-star hotel at taxpayer expense since you have been in your role? It is quite a straightforward question.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have no idea of what star rating of hotel I have stayed in. I do not interfere in any of that business. Somebody in our office will do the logistics, and that is fine.

I will say that I am very conscious of being prudent with public money. When Ministers have a job to do — they have a job to do to travel the world, sell our wares and create investment here — it is important that we do not just reach for the headline. You are absolutely right: value for money should be top of the agenda. That is certainly a principle that I adhere to in any of the travelling that I do, and I travel with only one objective, which is to better this place, better people's lives, increase the opportunities for investment, create jobs and ensure that we drum up business by telling people that we are very much open for business. That is important. However, I absolutely concur: there should be value for money all day long.

Eóin Tennyson (Alliance, Upper Bann)

T2. Mr Tennyson asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they can join him in condemning the behaviour witnessed in disgraceful scenes on Easter Monday when those linked to dissident republicanism groomed young people into violent attacks on the PSNI. (AQT 1242/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, I absolutely can. It was absolutely disgraceful. Dissident republican groups or any such group should not exist. They should leave the stage. We are here because we are trying to build a shared and inclusive society. That is the work that we are all committed to doing. The scenes that we witnessed in Derry were an absolute disgrace.

Eóin Tennyson (Alliance, Upper Bann)

I thank the First Minister for that answer. Given what we have seen over the last week and the role of dissident republicans in that activity, do you stand by your support for the UK and Irish Governments' interlocutor, whom they are appointing to engage with those very organisations?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have not pledged support for anybody's interlocutor; I have acknowledged that they are moving to that juncture. I have been clear in saying that those groups should not exist. They should not be given financial reward to leave the stage. They should just cease to exist. People should not engage with them on that basis, but the Irish Government and British Government will have to stand over any interlocutor that they appoint. I certainly will not have any hand or part in it.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

T3. Mr Donnelly asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on how work to tackle paramilitarism intersects with the work to promote good relations. (AQT 1243/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

They are two elements of the same thing for sure, given the conversation that we have just had about how unacceptable it is that paramilitaries still exist. Everybody should use their elected office to call it out for what it is and tell them to desist. If we are going to build a more inclusive society, we have to continue to work at that.

I am struck by the fact that, given the day that is in it and the commentary that we heard about how Pope Francis remarked that we had achieved so much in 25 years, we still have a journey to go.

Our peace is an ongoing process. I am committed to doing that through our good relations work, our ending violence against women and girls strategy and our work to end and tackle paramilitarism. All those things are interlinked, and looking at them in silos would do a disservice to our community.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

I thank the First Minister for her answer. We have seen a recent example in Lisburn, as well as examples in the past few years outside new housing developments in places as far afield as Antrim and Dungannon, of flags and symbols being intentionally used to intimidate local residents. What steps are being taken to end such intimidation and enable people to live free of territory marking in that way?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I concur with the Member in calling out those people who are responsible for intimidating communities and trying to claim space within communities by erecting flags, symbols and emblems. That is not acceptable. I am determined to build a better future for everybody, and that includes tackling some of those issues that have not been tackled to date. There is a difference in approach from what has been done before with the Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition report. However, we now have an opportunity, with it being looked at in the round with the other areas of work, to maybe advance it and do something about what comes next. I look forward to engaging with the Member on the topic as we move forward.

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

T4. Mr Kearney asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister to give their views on iar-Thaoiseach [Translation: former Taoiseach] Leo Varadkar's speech earlier this month in Philadelphia in which he reiterated his very strong view that it is now time to move from Irish unity as an aspiration to Irish unity as a political and policy objective for an Irish Government and called on us all to look to Irish unity as the defining challenge of our generation. (AQT 1244/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In the vein of the conversation that we had earlier, there is no joint office opinion on the issue. I very much welcome his intervention, however; it is a very helpful intervention. I wish that more people had the maturity and ability to enter into the conversation and embrace it in a way where we could have one objective to make everybody's life better. That is the prize for us all in what we can achieve here going forward. I do not see any contradiction whatsoever between being able to govern on a day-to-day basis for our public services and trying to better people's lives whilst also having that conversation. I think that it is happening organically. For me, it is about much more than sticking the North onto the South. For me, it is about the unity of people and about building a better future for everybody.

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Lena chois sin, a Chéad-Aire,

[Translation: Moreover, First Minister,]

I am very sensitive to the fact that there is a divergence in thinking within your office around issues on the constitutional future of the island. Nevertheless, do you agree that it is now time for the British Secretary of State to set definitive criteria for the calling of a unity referendum, and do you agree that the British Government should commence a conversation with the Irish Government about setting out the transition for Irish reunification?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes. My personal view is that it is time to prepare, plan, engage and have the conversations. It is work that clearly both Governments, as co-guarantors of the agreement, need to put their minds to. I would like to have a more formal process where we can all engage around what the potential is, and I believe that there is huge potential. That is why I think that it is time for a citizens' assembly to be called. It is absolutely time for the Irish Government to begin that planning and preparation. My ambition for the people of this island is for an island that is inclusive and welcoming and where people can have their views and identities respected. There is a lot of continuity in the Good Friday Agreement; it is an international agreement that will carry through, so identity is very much protected. I think that it is time to build a better future for everybody who calls this place home, and I encourage the Irish Government and particularly the British Government, with their responsibility for the criteria, to be fulsome and come forward with plans so that we can all understand what we are working to.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

T5. Ms Flynn asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the announcement by the Economy Minister, Caoimhe Archibald, of her 'good jobs' employment rights Bill. (AQT 1245/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Minister will initiate lots of discussion in the Chamber over the next number of years, particularly in relation to her 'good jobs' employment rights Bill. I look forward to the debate on that Bill. There is no doubt that it is one of the most significant pieces of workers' rights legislation ever to be introduced in the North, so I praise the work of the Economy Minister, Caoimhe Archibald, on progressing it.

The legislation will include paid leave for parents whose newborn is admitted to neonatal care. That, to my mind, is compassionate legislation. Other key parts will be ending zero-hours contracts; introducing the right to disconnect from work; and stronger rights for trade unions and their members. Those proposals and others will genuinely put money into workers' and families' pockets, strengthen their rights, support their families and empower trade unions. As well as benefiting the individual worker, which, ultimately, is what it is all about, the legislation will benefit our business community and the wider economy, supporting them to thrive. That, in essence, is what it is all about: politics making a difference in people's lives.

The statement that Caoimhe Archibald, the Economy Minister, will make later today will be a huge, positive step in demonstrating our commitment to delivering for workers, families and communities.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Before I call Ms Flynn to ask a supplementary question, I note that it would be more appropriate to have asked the responsible Minister at a later point. Go ahead with your supplementary, Ms Flynn.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thanks very much, Mr Speaker. Will the First Minister commit to working with all Ministers and with the Executive to try to progress that legislation as quickly as possible?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I want to see the legislation progressed as quickly as possible. As I said, I look forward to the debate in the Assembly, but it is a game-changing possibility. That is how I embrace it. The possibility that the proposals could begin to be rolled out is game-changing. I am sure that there will be differences of opinion, and that is all right: we will have those political debates. I am absolutely committed, however, to working with all Ministers and with colleagues in the Assembly to ensure that that happens and to support the Economy Minister in what she tries to achieve. Cross-party support, endorsing the full implementation of the legislation, would, of course, send a very powerful political message to workers and families. There is a huge opportunity for us here, so I would love to see us unite around the legislation and build a stronger economy in which workers, businesses and our economy can thrive.

Aoife Finnegan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

T6. Ms Finnegan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, given that the Court of Appeal, earlier this month, ruled the British Government's refusal to hold a public inquiry into the killing of Sean Brown, who was abducted and shot dead by loyalists in 1997, to be unlawful, whether they agree that there should be no more delays to establishing a public inquiry into his murder. (AQT 1246/22-27)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thank you for that. I have been at Bridie's side and will continue to be at the family's side. Bridie Brown is such a strong woman and has held herself with grace, courage and dignity. She stood outside the court earlier this month and made a direct plea to the British Government not to have her travel to London.

No matter how you look at it, Lady Chief Justice Keegan has been clear that the decision to refuse a public inquiry cannot stand, is unlawful and is in breach of ECHR article 2 obligations. The British Government need to get on and grant the public inquiry. The legal system has said, five times, that that needs to happen. The Brown family have waited for far too long; it is time for them to have truth, justice and accountability. They — particularly Bridie, at her age — should not have to endure the indignity and insult of further delays and appeals to the legal process because the British Government are burying their head in the sand and ignoring the reality that the courts have said that the family are entitled to the public inquiry.

Aoife Finnegan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

What is the First Minister's view on recent engagements between the Irish and British Governments on the issue of legacy?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I welcome the fact that legacy was on the agenda of last week's meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference (BIIC). It is very much for the two Governments to work together on that area. I welcome their joint commitment to establishing legacy institutions that are fully human-rights compliant and within the parameters of the 2014 Stormont House Agreement.

As we know, the legacy framework was endorsed in 2014 in the Stormont House Agreement. That is the basis on which to move forward.

I want to work with both Governments, resolve outstanding issues and ensure that all the families get access to truth and justice. It is crucial that whatever is brought forward in the weeks ahead commands the confidence of families, because this is about families. It is about loved ones; it is about grief; it is about healing; and it is about truth and justice. The only way for us to move forward that will command families' confidence is to have article 2-compliant frameworks.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I ask Members to take their ease.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Infrastructure

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Question 8 has been withdrawn.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

1. Mr Blair asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline whether a comprehensive review of alternative funding arrangements for Northern Ireland Water will be initiated. (AQO 1900/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have previously provided the Assembly with my position on the matter. My Department has already extensively reviewed NI Water's funding model and analysed the opportunities for NI Water in raising additional revenue, operating more efficiently and using financial transactions capital (FTC) and additional borrowing and additional public expenditure funding. My Department has also reviewed alternative water utility company structures across Britain and Ireland for best practice, including mutualisation, which, I know, is a model that seems to have some support here. My predecessor reviewed that work again in 2022 and 2024 for the purpose of evaluating any change of conditions that might merit further opportunities. Given that nothing has changed in the policy of how NI Water receives most of its revenue, which is through domestic subsidy, and the continuing government sponsorship of and accountability for NI Water, there are few additional options to be explored.

Any proposal to review NI Water's funding arrangements must satisfy three key tests: will a new structure help to secure long-term investment; can the model service the debt necessary to upgrade the infrastructure at the scale required; and can the model provide assurance in terms of controlling the cost burden on the public? As recently as this month, my officials again reviewed potential models against those three tests, and I am considering that review.

For the avoidance of doubt, I will not implement any review that will lead to household water charges on already hard-pressed families; I have reiterated that numerous times in the Chamber and in Committee. A model that takes NI Water out of government control, such as mutualisation, will require the introduction of water charging, no matter how we look at it.

I continue to work hard in partnership with the Executive to progress a three-pronged approach to ensure that NI Water remains fit for purpose: working with Executive colleagues to increase investment in waste water; consulting on developer contributions; and securing Executive agreement for the water, flooding and sustainable drainage Bill to be introduced in the Assembly.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her answer. The context is human waste on our roads and in Belfast lough, the Lough Neagh situation, the stalled living with water programme in Belfast and the calling in of forensic accountants, and, in managing our water, we are not in a good place. Does the Minister accept that a review should be undertaken urgently, with governance arrangements included in its remit and its outcome made public?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, I am considering a review that officials have undertaken. We have done numerous reviews to date and looked at all options, but no one has brought forward an alternative that will not lead to water charges, which I am not prepared to implement. If others want to do so, they should make that clear. My point is this: the funding model that we have is the best one to make sure that we avoid water charges, but we do not have enough investment. That is why the Executive need to continually work together and look at what else we can do to ensure that we continue with that model, ensuring that it is funded properly, and at alternative methods for managing our waste water.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Last month, the Minister announced that a forensic accountant would look at NI Water's finances for 2024-25. It was reported that it would take about six weeks for the forensic accountant to do that work. I note that the terms of reference state that there will be a:

"Presentation to management: w/c 2 June 2025".

Can the Minister confirm whether the accountant is in place and carrying out the work? How much will it cost the Department? When will the Committee and the Assembly have sight of the report?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Minister, there are three questions in there. It is at your discretion to answer them.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Yes, the accountant is in place, and the work has commenced. As it stands, the work is running on time. I will consider the report when it comes back to me and will share it with the Committee and the Assembly in due course.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Does the Minister agree that the experience of privatisation and mutualisation in England and Wales has been a disaster?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We have seen what mutualisation has done, and the Member alluded to what has happened in Wales. Mutualisation does not necessarily deliver the immediate benefits that others may have perceived that it would. We have seen that significant issues remain in the waste water system. Companies are burdened by excessive debt and are having to be bailed out by the Government. For me, that is a red flag. We therefore have to ensure that any system that is put in place here is fit for purpose and continues to deliver for the people whom it serves.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, I am afraid that you are pursuing a straw man argument. You have said that you do not want water charges rather than explain what you will do about water infrastructure in the North. I do not want water charges and nor does my party, but Lough Neagh is turning into an open-air cesspool, we cannot build affordable houses and business is being held back from developing. All those things will continue to be the case, and get worse, if we do not have some form of solution. You do not appear to have one, so can you tell us how we can invest in our water infrastructure if you have ruled everything off the table?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have made it clear what I am doing. I have pointed out the three things that we are doing specifically, which are working with Executive colleagues, undertaking the developer contributions consultation, which is out at the minute, and introducing legislation. Those three things are very clear. I am, however, glad that the SDLP has now made it clear that it does not want water charges. The SDLP has also not provided an alternative, but I look forward to hearing it.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

Minister, it is clear that the funding model simply is not working and that, as a result, Northern Ireland Water is currently not fit for purpose. Do you accept that people are paying for water through the rates process? To that end, would you support there being a line in the rates bill to highlight what is specifically for water? Doing so could potentially open up other models for funding Northern Ireland Water.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Our rates bills go towards all our public services, which further strengthens my argument about why we should not impose further bills and costs on households and families at a time when the cost of everything else is going up. We have to improve what we have, but there are ways in which to do that within the remit that we already have.

Cathy Mason (Sinn Féin, South Down)

2. Mrs Mason asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on the feasibility study for viable solutions to mitigate further flooding in Downpatrick. (AQO 1901/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Following the flooding in 2023, my Department commissioned a consultant to undertake a feasibility study to determine whether there were viable options to alleviate the threat of flooding in Downpatrick. The study is using information not only from the 2023 flooding incident but from additional historical records. A detailed computer model of the river has been created to simulate flooding events in order to assist with the identification of possible engineering solutions. Once the flood risks are fully understood, the list of potential solutions will be carefully investigated and assessed for viability. To do that properly can be quite a lengthy process. I am pleased, however, to be able to inform the Member that substantial progress has been made, and it is currently anticipated that the feasibility report will be completed in the coming weeks.

Cathy Mason (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank the Minister for that information, which will be a comfort to many businesses in Downpatrick. Can she provide a further timeline for the actual implementation of flood mitigation measures for Downpatrick?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The published 'Review of South East Flooding: Autumn 2023' detailed 22 recommendations, which the Department and multi-agency partners will be responsible for delivering. The recommendations include developing flood forecasting capability and further enhancements to communications, resilience and surface water management. Although my Department is not the lead agency for the delivery of all the recommendations from the review, we will take the lead in the coordination and oversight of the implementation of all recommendations through the establishment of a flooding review recommendations group. Regular meetings continue with members of the group, and there is a focus on the development of an agreed action plan to outline responsibilities and associated timescales, with the anticipation that all recommendations will be addressed within 24 months.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

It recently came to light that only half of the money that was allocated to give desperately needed help to businesses in places such as Downpatrick after the floods was actually allocated to businesses. Instead, it was allocated to Departments such as the Minister's. Does she think that it was fair on those beleaguered businesses of Downpatrick and other places that the finance that was allocated for them was instead used for departmental spend?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Part of my constituency was impacted on by what the Member outlined. I can speak only about my Department and what we were allocated. We were provided with £10·5 million of additional funding for the response and remedial actions that were required following the major flooding incidents that he mentioned. That was made up of £1·9 million in resource and £8·6 million in capital. Those amounts were fully spent. The funding allowed the additional costs associated with the flooding to be met, which included repair and remediation work; replacement of damaged equipment; staff costs; and other costs that were essential for us to deal directly with the response and lost revenue. From our perspective, every penny of that was spent in a way that was effective. Like all Departments, we probably could have done with more, if that could have been the case, but that is where we are at with it.

Andrew McMurray (Alliance, South Down)

On the feasibility study of flood mitigation measures, will the Minister commit resources in order to expedite putting such measures in place to prevent any further flooding?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have had regular engagement with officials, particularly those in DFI Rivers, because a huge amount of work has gone into the study. As I outlined, there were 22 recommendations, and we need to make sure that we are well prepared, because, as we are all aware, such incidents will become more frequent, particularly given the climate emergency. We see that day and daily. It is a key priority for the Department.

I have to say this: officials do not often get the credit that they deserve, but, since coming into post, I have been extremely impressed with the work that has gone into ensuring that we move at pace and that we are better prepared to deal with what is coming further down the line. I absolutely think that it is a huge priority for all of us.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

3. Mr Bradley asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether she has considered introducing planning restrictions on converting residential properties into short-term holiday lets. (AQO 1902/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Department's regional development strategy 2035 and the strategic planning policy statements support the creation of balanced communities. The policy approach to all types of housing is to facilitate an adequate and available supply of quality housing to meet the needs of everyone. Council local development plans (LDPs) are the main vehicle for delivering that by assessing future housing land requirements and managing housing growth in their areas to achieve sustainable patterns of residential development. That process allows councils to address local housing issues in their communities, such as the balance between residential properties and short-term holiday lets. Councils are also responsible for operating effective development management in respect of planning applications for housing, and, in doing so, the provisions of their LDP, the regional strategic planning policy and all other material planning considerations must be taken into account. Whilst my Department will continue to perform an important oversight role in relation to LDPs, I have no plans to revise the Department's approach to housing to restrict the conversion of residential properties into short-term holiday lets at this time.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answer, but, given the pressures that short-term holiday lets can place on the local housing supply and on community cohesion, is she prepared to set plans in place to introduce specific measures, such as requiring planning permission or establishing control areas, to better manage the impact of holiday lets and houses in multiple occupation (HMOs) on residential neighbourhoods? I hear what the Minister says, but the issue is getting to epidemic proportions across Northern Ireland, and something needs to be done —

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Maurice.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

— and it needs to be done at that level.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I will take into consideration what the Member said. I appreciate that it is a very important issue. As I said, it relates more to the local development plans. It is important that councillors, as elected representatives, feed into that as best as possible. It is about trying to strike the right balance as well.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Minister, you are probably aware that there are cities in Britain and parts of Dublin in which there is a litany of Airbnbs but few, if any, are registered. It is concerning, Minister, that you do not believe that the planning system should be used to crack down on the use of Airbnbs and short-term holiday lets. Will you reconsider that position, given the lack of permanent housing stock and the scale of the housing crisis that so many people are facing?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I take the Member's point. However, the extent of the short-term let or the changes to the use or the character of the property will impact on whether planning permission is required. The situation varies for different units. You will be aware that decisions on planning applications that seek permission for a change of use for an existing building or for a new build to provide a short-term let or self-contained holiday accommodation unit are normally determined by local councils. As part of that process, there is already provision for that scrutiny. I take the point that there are probably units that are not going through that process. We could feed that into the planning improvement programme. As it stands, there are no plans in that regard.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

Minister, this is a well-rehearsed issue, and it is disappointing that you and your Department keep deferring to councils and blaming them for it. You have ultimate responsibility for implementing the Planning Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, and, through it, you have powers to intervene and take more action. Will the Minister go back and read the legislation to see what she and the House can do to try to fix something that has been an issue in seaside areas for many years?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, we have the planning improvement programme, which is an opportunity to feed all those issues into the discussion. We are engaging with local councils, councillors, architects and all the stakeholders who are involved in that process. If, coming out of that, there is scope to intervene, we can definitely consider that.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister outline the work that is being done to explore the impact of second homes being used as short-term holiday lets?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, I appreciate that that remains a major area of concern, not in all council areas but, as Members have outlined, in certain ones. As things stand, the LDPs have some means of addressing the issue of second homes at a local level. Notwithstanding that, I can advise that early discussions by the cross-departmental group, comprising DFC, DFI and DFE, recently commenced. The broad purpose of that group is to provide an informed understanding of the nature and scale of second homes across the North and to assess the effects of second homes on the housing market and on the sustainability of local communities and services. I await more advice on that, which could feed into the broader discussion that we are having today.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The issue continues and, year-on-year, worsens in my constituency, in Portrush, Portstewart, Castlerock etc. Minister, will you commit to an additional meeting with the Department for Communities to talk about the issue? If we keep pushing it back to councils, we will not find any answers.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I have said, there is some cross-departmental work ongoing between DFI, DFC and the Department for the Economy. We will look at that as part of those discussions.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

4. Mr McGuigan asked the Minister for Infrastructure when will repair works at the Glenshesk Road, Ballycastle be completed. (AQO 1903/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am happy to advise that the works associated with a significant embankment failure on the Glenshesk Road commenced on Tuesday 18 March this year. The works will involve drainage improvements, slope reconstruction and resurfacing. It is anticipated that all works will be completed by the end of August 2025, with a completion target date in advance of the Ould Lammas Fair, subject to favourable weather conditions and no unforeseen delays.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her answer. More importantly, the residents of Glenshesk Road, who have been severely impacted on as a result of the landslide since March 2024, will welcome the completion of the work in August. Given that that was not the first landslide on the Glenshesk Road, will the works that you have outlined look at future-proofing to help to prevent another similar landslide?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

To be blunt, it is very difficult to prevent future slippages along the road, given the ground conditions and the topography. To reduce the risk of and potential for future slippages, my Department will incorporate an improved drainage regime along the carriageway that will, hopefully, help to alleviate some of the challenges in advance. Therefore, it is envisaged that the embankment along Glenshesk Road will be afforded greater protection that will, hopefully, reduce the risk of slippage.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

As my North Antrim colleague Philip McGuigan outlined, 17 months is a long time for a community to be cut off. I am glad to hear that there will be preventative works. Will there be any works to the parallel Drumavoley Road to take some of the strain away from Glenshesk Road and alleviate future risks?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I do not have specific detail on that question, Sian, but I am happy to come back to you about it. This is more specific to Glenshesk Road. I will come back to you in writing about the detail of your question and confirm the point.

David Honeyford (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

5. Mr Honeyford asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline whether she has any plans to revise planning laws to enable investment to take account of any of Northern Ireland’s trading advantages. (AQO 1904/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The planning system plays a key role in supporting sustainable development and economic growth. It must operate in the public interest and provide a fair and balanced framework for all types of development, regardless of the extent or scale of investment.

We are all very aware that planning is a collective issue, and all stakeholders must play their part in delivering the necessary changes and improvements to establish an environment that will enhance the prospects for investment and trade in the North. That includes local councils, which have responsibility for a significant number of planning functions. Whilst I have no plans to revise planning legislation specifically to reflect trading advantages, you will be aware of my Department's ongoing work to bring forward the planning improvement programme, which I mentioned. That is intended to improve the efficiency of the planning system by bringing about improvements in application processing times, the quality of applications and the delivery of local development plans. That is the right approach to ensuring that the planning system works better for everyone and remains focused on delivering balanced, sustainable outcomes. That, in turn, will provide impetus in achieving a positive environment for potential investment in the North and enhance the prospects of developing trade.

David Honeyford (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Minister, for your response. PRM, in my constituency, has seen significant growth in its business through dual market access. It has just completed a planning application to help it realise that. That took three years. That company is embedded in my community. Other people will not wait around for three years for a planning application. That is not a problem with planning; it is the system. I ask the Minister to prioritise the issue, because it is holding back our economy and growth.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I will go back to my previous answer and say that that is exactly one of the reasons why my predecessor, John O'Dowd, initiated the work on the planning improvement programme. It is critical for everything across government that we talk about here, whether it be housing, the economy, education or health.

I agree with the Member. I come from a constituency that has been critically impacted on by long planning times. We have been able to identify common issues right across the 11 council areas, including staffing and resource issues, and how we can better streamline that process so that people do not have to wait for three years on an application. However, it has been a really extensive piece of work, and we will see good outcomes. I hope that the Member will be reassured to know that that is a key element of the work that is taking place.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Minister, in the same vein, this is a problem that exists throughout the North of Ireland, so will you outline the steps that you are taking to improve planning statutory consultees' response times?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for the question. As elected representatives from different constituencies, we all hear about some of the delays. I have introduced a number of measures to improve that planning consultation process, including the publication of quarterly and annual reports on statutory consultation performance to enhance and encourage improvements; statutory requirements for validation checklists to make the planning application process more efficient and effective; the delivery of specific bespoke training to statutory consultees' staff on environmental impact assessments; the production of a protocol for statutory consultees to support them as well as local government; and the planning statutory consultee forum, which is a cross-governmental group that will continue to meet regularly to constructively address issues impacting on the effectiveness of the consultation process.

When you speak to applicants, businesses and people who are in that process, you find that this can be an area of real frustration, especially if they are waiting on one consultee response. I hope that all those measures will help to speed up and streamline the process.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

6. Mr McNulty asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline how much has been spent by her Department on compensation for damage to vehicles as a result of road surface defects, since February 2024. (AQO 1905/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

My Department maintains its financial records by financial year on the NICS accounting system, Account NI. Given the time of year, the figures that are available in relation to claim numbers and expenditure on vehicle damage compensation due to road surface defects since February 2024 may be subject to change. This is because the normal end-of-year financial adjustments on the Account NI system and data management exercises on my Department’s claims management system have yet to be finalised. I can confirm, from the data currently available, that the expenditure on vehicle damage compensation claims due to road surface defects from 1 February 2024 to 31 March 2025 was approximately £1·4 million. That figure includes compensation payments along with payment of vehicle damage loss assessor fees, departmental legal costs and claimants’ legal costs.

The Member should be aware that claims that are received in a financial year are not always concluded in the same financial year. Therefore, the expenditure figures for a given financial year will usually include spend on claims that were received in prior years. In addition, although my Department has a statutory duty under article 8 of the Roads Order 1993 to maintain public roads, there is no automatic entitlement to compensation. My Department investigates and defends public liability claims, with every case turning on its own facts. In cases where officials believe that the Department can raise a legal defence, claims will be repudiated.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she intend to review the current penny wise, pound foolish approach to pothole repair policy in order to ensure that her Department is delivering long-term value for money and improved road safety and to allow for the more practical and efficient use of maintenance staff who are under-resourced and worked to the pin of their collars?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have said in the Chamber before that officials are currently working on a new road maintenance strategy for all the reasons outlined. We have staffing shortages across the Department as well as a lack of investment in the Department for Infrastructure. His former colleague, who previously served as Infrastructure Minister, would agree that that was the case during her time in office. This is something that we have been dealing with for many years. It will be important to look at how we can do things differently and how we can deliver higher-quality repairs instead of what we have had to do for many years, spreading resources too thinly. It is important that, where we intervene, we ensure that we have a safer and more reliable road network.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister outline what her Department is doing to use technology to improve road maintenance?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As part of the new strategy that we are currently working on — I will be considering it in detail in the coming weeks — we want to focus on higher-quality repairs that will be more sustainable. That will involve the use of modern technology to direct our investments where they are needed most, ensuring smarter maintenance decisions but also future-proofing our roads to meet society's changing needs, including active travel, reducing the carbon footprint of our operations and ensuring that the network is resilient after adverse weather events.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

In 2019-2020, your Department paid out over £35,000 for vehicle damage claims in its Ards and North Down section office area. In 2023-24, that amount rose to an eye-watering £122,000. Will you take action to ensure that the Ards and North Down area receives a fair funding allocation for proper roads maintenance going forward?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We discussed the situation in Ards and North Down in a recent Adjournment debate. Funding is allocated to each division using a very technical methodology, and we talked about that at length in that debate. As I said in my previous answers, there is no doubt that we do not have enough money to do all the work that is required and to deliver what is needed across our road network. That is why we are trying to do as much as we can with the budget that is available and to be smarter with it. All road users, whether they are motorists, cyclists or pedestrians, should have access to safe, good-quality roads. That work is ongoing as part of the strategy that is being developed, and I hope to see that being implemented fairly soon.

Diane Forsythe (DUP, South Down)

7. Ms Forsythe asked the Minister for Infrastructure for the outcome of the review of the A2 Kilkeel to Newcastle road. (AQO 1906/22-27)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Minister, I you have only seconds here.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

OK. I will do my best.

As you know, my Department has been operating under significant underfunding for many years. Regrettably, structural maintenance funding, which is used to deliver resurfacing projects, has not kept pace with what is needed to keep roads in a reasonable condition, as we have discussed at length today. That said, the Department has completed two resurfacing schemes on the A2 Newcastle Road in Kilkeel in 2024-25, with over 3 kilometres of the road having been resurfaced. Any further resurfacing improvements will be taken forward on the basis of priority need and subject to the level of structural maintenance funding in future years. Officials will continue to review and assess the A2 through regular inspections and will take forward the repair of defects in line with the Department's current limited service policy.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Sorry, Diane. The time for listed questions has ended. We now move on to topical questions.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T1. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for Infrastructure, in light of an earlier, lengthy exchange on the impact of second homes on housing supply, whether she is aware of a situation in his constituency where pressures have been created by the overdue and welcome expansion of the university, which has created a "gold rush" for HMOs, causing anxiety and putting pressure on planning and housing supply in neighbourhoods around the community and whether the Department can work with the council to alleviate the problems and allay concerns. (AQT 1251/22-27)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for his question and recognise the significance of the announcement about Magee university. Hopefully, that will be huge for the north-west.

To alleviate the issues, as in many other cases, we need to work collaboratively and collectively, not just through the planning process but in our work with NI Water and in addressing any other barriers that may be holding back potential for delivering new housing and HMOs, to ensure the best outcome for everybody.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. It is my understanding that the publication of the planning strategy as part of the local development plan is imminent. Work will then begin on a local policies plan that will look at thresholds or limits on the number of HMOs in specific areas or streets. Can you assure us that the intervening period will not create a no man's land or "no plans land" that can be exploited by developers at the expense of local neighbourhoods?

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

With any such work, it is important that we get it right, that we do not leave gaps that could be exploited and that the benefits are seen by the people to whom they are directed. We have to look at all those potentials as part of that process. In expediting any process, I would be concerned, at the same time, to take the right time to ensure that the work is done properly. I welcome any input or contributions from the Member or others in the area on those concerns so that they can be addressed early in the process.