Northern Ireland Assembly, 10 December 2024

562 contributions from 64 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Before Members' statements, I need to deal with issues that arose yesterday.

During yesterday's debate on the Assembly Commission's budget, there were a number of disorderly exchanges, which included two individual challenges to rulings from the Chair, by Mr Gaston and Dr Aiken, that were of a nature that needs to be returned to this morning. I can confirm that Mr Gaston has written to me directly about the same issue. I am disappointed, however, to see that, before I could respond, he had shared his letter with the media. That is something that is not in keeping with parliamentary courtesy.

I refer Members to the start of Assembly business on 4 November 2024, when I made the following comments:

"I remind Members that, regardless of whether decisions are taken by me or delegated to the Principal Deputy Speaker or Deputy Speakers, they are procedural decisions that are taken impartially in consultation with the advice of officials on the requirements of Standing Orders. Members are aware that the Chair's decisions are final and that it is out of order to challenge them. Upholding the authority and impartiality of the Chair is an issue for not only the Deputy Speakers and me but all Members. If it becomes a trend that Members seek to abuse our procedures and conventions by playing party politics with the Chair's decisions, the Chair can take account of that, particularly when Members seek permission to raise an item or catch the eye of the Speaker or a Deputy Speaker." — [Official Report (Hansard), 4 November 2024, p1, cols 1-2].

It is in that context that I will make a couple of reflections on yesterday's exchanges. First, although there may have been the potential to raise issues relating to the Michael McMonagle situation within the scope of the debate on the Assembly Commission budget, that would have needed to be done in a way that was clearly relevant. Mr Gaston, however, did not raise issues in a way that was within the scope of the debate. When the Principal Deputy Speaker gave Mr Gaston the opportunity to adapt his remarks to bring them within scope, as other Members would be used to, Mr Gaston instead went off on a further tangent to make references to the Committee for the Executive Office and to take issue with the Principal Deputy Speaker.

Secondly, Members will have heard me say in the past that, even if I disagree with Members' comments, I will defend, from the Speaker's Chair, their right to make them.

While Mr Carroll made reference to companies in a way that, I think, was unwise, he did so within the scope of the debate and made his comments relevant to the budget.

Having observed the proceedings and spoken to officials, I can confirm that the Principal Deputy Speaker's decisions were in order and in accordance with procedural advice. Whether or not Mr Gaston agreed, the crucial point is that that was the Chair's ruling, which is final and is not open to debate.

What cannot be tolerated is the nature of the exchanges with the Principal Deputy Speaker. It was further disappointing that a Member who serves as a Deputy Speaker also got involved in challenging the Chair in that way. Members who serve as Deputy Speakers should know better than to undermine the procedures of the House, from which they benefit, and I cannot make an exception for a Deputy Speaker.

Today, when we have a particularly significant debate, I remind all Members that Standing Order 1(2) makes clear:

"The Speaker's ruling shall be final on all questions of procedure and order."

That includes the decisions of the Principal Deputy Speaker and the Deputy Speakers in my absence. Members should accept it in good faith that the rulings from the Chair are based on the procedures of the House. That is why the Clerks are at the Table with us: to allow us to take procedural advice as business proceeds. If I or a Deputy Speaker give an instruction, such as on a Member's time being up or on sticking to the scope of the debate, there is no discussion to be had. Members should adapt their remarks accordingly rather than begin a dispute with the Chair.

Challenges to a ruling of the Chair on a procedural decision would not be tolerated in Westminster or anywhere in these islands, and I will not tolerate them in the Assembly or see the authority of the Chair, the discipline of the Chamber and the smooth running of our business diminished. Members should be absolutely clear on that. In line with similar direct challenges to the Chair during previous Assembly mandates, it is clear to me that a sanction would be appropriate in the case of Mr Gaston and Dr Aiken. In previous cases, when Members have challenged the Chair in such a serious fashion, the relevant Members were not called for some time. However, I am conscious of our business today, and I would be prepared to waive that sanction if Mr Gaston or Dr Aiken were to apologise to the House in the Chamber this morning. In the absence of an apology, both Members will not be called to speak in any plenary business, including debates, questions, interventions and points of order, for two sitting weeks, beginning today.

I will leave that with you. If Members wish to apologise, I will facilitate that.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Mr Speaker, thank you for your words. Obviously, considerable issues have been raised about the comments that were made yesterday. I fully accept your ruling, and I apologise to the House. The only thing that I wish to do in the House is ensure that there is good order, good governance and, above all, proper debate. I apologise, Mr Speaker.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you very much, Dr Aiken. I understand that, in the heat of the moment, things can get out of control. I appreciate your apology.

We will move on to Members' statements.

Members' Statements

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Housing is a human right and forms part of the right to an adequate standard of living guaranteed by the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Under international law, to be adequately housed means having real security of tenure. On Human Rights Day, it is timely to remind us all of our ongoing collective responsibility to tackle poverty and existing housing inequalities across our society, ensuring that no one is left behind.

Key elements that are considered when assessing the right to adequate housing include security of tenure; affordability; habitability, accessibility; the availability of services; location, including access to support; and cultural adequacy. Delivering housing across all tenures is fundamental, but we must also work to prevent evictions and tackle any discriminatory patterns of social exclusion that prevent people from accessing suitable housing. Whilst the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights' General Comment No 7 of 1997 is approaching three decades of existence, it is to be commended for its clear and unequivocal commentary on evictions:

"Evictions should not result in individuals being rendered homeless or"

being left

"vulnerable to the violation of other human rights."

With almost 48,000 households on the social housing waiting list at present, we have a duty to once again consider housing as our collective duty, particularly in the context of the fulfilment of human rights, and to reconsider how we will ensure that resources are pooled across the Executive and Assembly to progressively realise that right to the maximum ability of our available resources.

I welcome the publication of the housing supply strategy by the Minister yesterday, but I also ask the Minister to confirm when we can expect the regulations. The regulations will bring forward the work of our predecessors to deliver much longer notice-to-quit periods for those living in the private rented sector. Equally, I again urge the Minister to reconsider his refusal to legislate to end the use of no-fault evictions. While I appreciate some of the challenges that he has raised on the basis of the Scottish case, for example, those challenges are not insurmountable and, arguably, are not an exceptional justification for a lack of legislation in the area. I suggest further engaging on that with the likes of Renters' Voice and Housing Rights, which have already been considering potential proposals for the development of very limited acceptable grounds for exceptions.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

I commend the work of Westland Community Group in North Belfast and wish, in particular, to celebrate the allocation of Urban Villages funding for a new Westland Community Centre, which was confirmed by junior Minister Reilly in the Chamber yesterday in response to questions for oral answer from Phillip Brett and me. I met the Westland Community Group committee last night. It is, of course, delighted with the allocation of £1·6 million for the new, purpose-built community centre.

Westland is an estate of just over 200 houses. Built by the Housing Executive over 50 years ago, it is now a mixture of social housing, owner-occupied properties and private rentals. The Westland Community Group was started 42 years ago, and, 23 years ago, the group received a second-hand prefabricated community centre from the lower Oldpark area as a temporary measure. With structural supports physically holding up the roof, the group got as much use as it could out of that centre until, five years ago, it was finally condemned and had to be demolished. There have been many efforts over the years to secure funding for a new centre. Now, thanks to Urban Villages, which sits in the Executive Office, that has been achieved.

I congratulate the community group's committee, under chairperson Robert Hollywood, for its dedication and tenacity in reaching this breakthrough moment. Vice chair, Katie Shoukri, who has been a member of the committee since the very start, 42 years ago, and is a former chairperson deserves a special mention. "Well done" to Katie for that long commitment. I also give special thanks to officials from the Urban Villages team, particularly Joe Hinds, and from Belfast City Council, particularly community worker Siobhan Shannon, and to all others who have supported the group in its campaign. I make special mention of councillors Fred Cobain and Jordan Doran and, previously, Harry Smith of Intercomm.

Considering that Westland is such a small area, I have been impressed by the energy and activities of Westland Community Group. Even without a centre, it managed to hold summer schemes, community fun days and pensioners' dinners. I have every confidence that it will make great use of the future centre for the Westland community and others who will benefit from it. In the patchwork quilt of North Belfast, Westland is a predominantly unionist community, but the community group participates in various cross-community activities and is becoming more ethnically diverse. People from neighbouring areas attend its fun days and other activities.

Now that there is a clear pathway to the delivery of the new centre, the relevant agencies must continue to support the Westland Community Group. I trust that the letter of offer will be issued soon. Again, congratulations to all concerned.

Kate Nicholl (Alliance, Belfast South)

On Wednesday 4 December, a much-loved doctor and teaching assistant in our city received the news that they had been dreading. Nineteen members of their family in Gaza had been killed by Israeli air strikes: a mother, a brother, an uncle, cousins and children. Looking for safety, they had been evacuated nine times, and, each time they moved to a new area, they were in danger. They were killed in their tents, burned alive by bombs.

It is important to stress that nowhere in Gaza is safe. People cannot be evacuated; the borders are closed. Nothing has been done.

When I spoke to Omar, whose family members were killed, he said that he wanted his family to be remembered, because every human being has importance, value and worth. Therefore, I will read out the names of his family members who were killed on Wednesday 4 December: Akram Wael Akram Al-Masry; Julia Osama Muhammad Barhoum; Abdullah Musa Abdullah Al-Astal; Haitham Muhammad Abdullah Abu Mustafa; Muhammad Ahmad Hussein Juma; Yahya Muhammad Ahmad Juma; Bassem Abdullah Youssef Hassanein, who was Dalal's mother; Fawqiya Abdul Rahim Diab Lafi; Israa Muhammad Suleiman Al-Astal; Jouri Osama Muhammad Barhoum; Sham Ali Younis Shurab; Shaima Muhammad Fathi Al-Majayda; Wafaa Ali Younis Shurab; Ahmed Muhammad Ahmad Juma; Mahmoud Muhammad Ahmad Juma; Layan Bassem Abdullah Abu Hassanein; Khalil Hussein Khalil Lafi; Osama Afif Abdullah Ghanem; and Latifa Bassem Abdullah Hassanein. Four people remain unidentified because of the devastation.

Every life has value. Every person has value. The international community has to do something. People cannot keep dying. There were children in that family who were killed. It is an outrage and an atrocity. My heart goes out to every member of our Palestinian community today who feels that devastation and is worried for their family members.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I rise to congratulate the Downpatrick Dramability group, which is a mixed-ability group that puts on various performances throughout the year and has a pantomime at Christmastime, which I attended on Saturday past. MLAs get the opportunity to do lots of things during their tenure, but I wonder whether I can top it all, because, at the weekend, I got to save Christmas. As the show progressed, it became apparent that one person in the audience did not truly believe in Christmas. In fact, that one person in the audience, who was unknown at the time, was referred to as a Grinch. This caused Santa Claus to be locked in a dungeon and not able to do his duties. As the show progressed, it became apparent that the Grinch was me, and I was brought onstage to take part in the performance. In so doing, I was able to unlock the present that was on the stage, which enabled me to become an elf and, therefore, believe in Christmas. That meant that Santa Claus got out of jail, so he will be able to perform all his activities on Christmas Eve.

I thank the group for its performance. As I said, it is a mixed-ability group. Under the guidance of Bette Liddell, it has been working for years. It practises every week for its performances. It puts its heart and soul into its performances. The members have an opportunity to come together to socialise, to learn from each other and, especially, to grow in confidence and be very welcomed, loved and cherished members of our community. I absolutely love the shows. They are enjoyed by the hundreds who attend them each year. At the end of each show, the members take great relish in telling the audience that we were "absolutely average". I was proud to be part of their "average" pantomime at the weekend to assist them in saving Christmas. I am absolutely delighted, through the work of the Downpatrick Dramability group, that I believe, and that I can be that elf this Christmas.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I remind Members that props and displays are not to be used in the Chamber

[Laughter]

but, in the spirit of Christmas, I will let the Member away with it on this occasion.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Ár gcearta, ár dtodhchaí anois díreach.

Inniu Lá Idirnáisiúnta Chearta an Duine. Is inniu a dhéanaimid ár machnamh ar an dul chun cinn a rinneadh agus a aithnímid go bhfuil bearnaí ann go fóill.

Déanaimid comóradh inniu, nó is ar an lá seo tá sé bliana is seachtó ó shin a síníodh Dearbhú Uilechoiteann Chearta an Duine. Sa 1948, bhí an domhain faoi léan i ndiaidh ar fhulaing sé d’uafáis bharbartha. I ndiaidh chrá agus phian an Uileloiscthe, tháinig ceannairí domhanda le chéile lena rá: "Choíche arís". D’fhógair siad na cearta doshannta a bhfuil gach neach daonna ina dteideal, beag beann ar chine, ar reiligiún ná ar náisiúntacht. Rinne siad é sin i ndúil is nach mbeadh aon ghrúpa daoine faoi leatrom choíche arís.

Bheadh comhionannas, dínit agus saoirse ag gach duine.

Ar an drochuair, níor chomhlíon an domhan na gealltanais a rinneadh ag an am sin, agus is maith is eol dúinne an dochar a dhéantar nuair a shéantar cearta an duine. Tá easpa ceart sa Tuaisceart: níor comhlíonadh na gealltanais a rinneadh sa bhliain 1998 go fóill, agus tá an beagán ag séanadh bhille na gceart ar an mhórán.

Ar fud an domhain, tá cearta daoine leochaileacha faoi ionsaí gach aon lá. Is ar Gaza, thar áit ar bith eile, a smaoinímid agus ar mhuintir na Palaistíne, atá faoi chinedhíothú le níos mó ná 14 mhí. Fiú roimh an 7 Deireadh Fómhair bhí siad faoi fhorghabháil.

Caithfimid bheith ag súil le níos fearr, ach caithfimid obair ar a shon.

Caithfimid ár gcearta dár dtodchaí a bheith againn anois díreach.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

[Translation: Our rights, our future, right now. Today is International Human Rights Day, a day to take stock of the progress made and acknowledge where the gaps are. Today we commemorate the 76th anniversary of the signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In 1948, the world was reeling from unspeakable evil, and in the wake of the hurt and pain of the Holocaust, world leaders came together to say, “Never again”. They declared the inalienable rights that every human being is entitled to, regardless of race, religion, or nationality. They did so in the hope that it would mean that no group of people would ever face discrimination again. Equality, dignity, and freedom for all individuals. Unfortunately, our world has not lived up to the promises made at that time, and we ourselves are no stranger to the harms caused by denial of rights. We live in a rights deficit in the North: the promises of 1998 have still not been fulfilled, and a bill of rights for all people is denied to many by the few. Across the world, the rights of vulnerable people are under attack on a daily basis, nowhere more so than in Gaza, where we think of the Palestinian people enduring genocide for more than 14 months now. Even before 7 October, they were living under occupation. We must hope for better, but we must work to deliver it. Our rights, for our future, right now.]

Cheryl Brownlee (DUP, East Antrim)

I rise to address the issue of derelict buildings in East Antrim, which has been a long-standing source of frustration and concern for the local community, local council and, of course, local traders. A number of properties are in a state of serious dilapidation, which not only undermines the aesthetics and safety of those areas but hinders efforts to revitalise the heart of our town centres.

After storm Darragh at the weekend, a building in West Street, Carrickfergus, was declared unsafe by the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service. That area has been closed to traffic and pedestrians, which will result in further reduced footfall during the important Christmas period. Of course, the weather cannot be blamed; that building has been left to go to ruins with no regard for the domino effect that that has on the area. The council has been left without any real power to take action.

The Northern Ireland Assembly's proposed dilapidation Bill will, hopefully, provide a crucial framework to tackle such properties by empowering local councils to take decisive action on abandoned and unsafe buildings. That proposed legislation could offer an effective tool to compel owners to repair or redevelop those sites. West Street in Carrickfergus and the likes of Dunluce Street in Larne are, of course, prime examples of areas where that legislation could be used to great effect. In its current state, that site is a stark reminder of neglect and how that adversely affects surrounding businesses, residents and, of course, Carrickfergus's image as a key tourist destination.

I urge the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to update the House on progress on the introduction of the proposed dilapidation Bill, work alongside local authorities to fully embrace the powers that that dilapidation Bill could provide, and prioritise properties and areas such as those I mentioned. The residents of East Antrim deserve a clear plan and a clear timeline for action, whether through enforcement mechanisms, cost recovery mechanisms, broader powers and, of course, clarity. Action must be taken before it is too late, or someone will be seriously injured.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

As others have mentioned, today, we mark Human Rights Day. On 10 December 1948, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was pledged to the world at the United Nations General Assembly in Paris. That historic document provided the fundamental rights for every human being as we know them today. The pledge established that people deserve to have their humanity protected at a baseline level, regardless of race, gender, sexuality, colour or status. It is a promise to respect other people, transcend our differences and strive for a better world.

The year 2024 also marks the 75th anniversary of the Council of Europe, of which the United Kingdom was a founding member and which is the custodian of the European Court of Human Rights. For the 76th anniversary, the United Nations has called for an acknowledgement of the importance of human rights in our daily lives. That requires us to tackle misinformation, counter disinformation and seek to mobilise human rights as a global movement. As Deputy Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office, I mirror that sentiment and highlight the need for an equality Act in Northern Ireland similar to that in the rest of the United Kingdom. It is past time that we brought legislation that consolidates human rights, protects them as a singular entity and ends the disjointed systems that we currently have.

In Northern Ireland, no legislation protects us from age discrimination in accessing goods, facilities and services, yet there are protections for those on every other equality ground. Whilst disability discrimination is technically legislated for, there is no law against indirect discrimination. That shortfall was addressed in the rest of the United Kingdom by the Equality Act 2010, 14 years ago. We need to look at Northern Ireland's harrowing shortfalls in its ability to protect women and girls from violence. It is horrifying to think that we have one of the most dangerous places in Europe for a woman to live. We must continue to press that issue and support the framework for ending violence against women and girls completely and undeniably.

I paint that picture to show that, whilst we have come a long way in the past 76 years, there is still progress to be made in Northern Ireland. As we look back on our accomplishments on this historic anniversary, I urge us all to turn our attention to the future and a Northern Ireland that is fair for all.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Members, we were all saddened last night to learn of the passing of Tyrone GAA football legend Jody Gormley. I extend my sympathy, thoughts and prayers to his wife, Deirdre; his children, Aine, James and Niamh; and the wider Gormley family circle.

Jody had a distinguished football career with his beloved club, Trillick St Macartans in Tyrone, as a footballer and as a manager. He also had huge success with Tyrone GAA and London GAA, and he won a County Down junior championship with Bredagh GAC. He showed great grit and determination on the field. Any of us who follow Gaelic games will remember when he scored the winning point in the famous victory in the 1995 Ulster semi-final against Derry; indeed, I was one of the many people who were there to cheer him on. He was a distinguished coach with the County Down and County Antrim teams. He won the Tommy Murphy Cup with Antrim, which was the last silverware that was won by the Antrim county footballers. As a teacher, he led Abbey Christian Brothers' Grammar School to win its first MacRory Cup in 19 years, and it went on to win the Hogan Cup. I extend my thoughts and prayers to his pupils, who are also feeling his loss.

When Jody announced his illness a few months ago, he faced it with incredible inspiration and bravery that inspired us all. Anyone who has heard Thomas Niblock's podcast episode with him will know his bravery and the love that he had for his family. He did not fear death coming at all, but he regretted that he would not live to see his children blossom and share in their life experiences, such as his son, James, playing football for Trillick.

On that podcast, Jody said that he wanted to be remembered as a:

"decent person who helped people out as much as I could".

That is exactly what he did. He was truly an inspiration, and he will be for ever remembered.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

That concludes Members' statements.

Assembly Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Before we move to the next item of business, I inform Members that, as the Business Committee is not meeting today, there will be no lunchtime suspension. Business will continue until 2.00 pm, when Question Time will commence.

I also wish to inform Members that I have been notified that the proposer of the Adjournment debate topic relating to South Belfast, Ms Paula Bradshaw, will not speak to that topic, so there will be no Adjournment debate.

Timothy Gaston (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

In light of the business that we are considering later, I accept your ruling, Mr Speaker, on the matter that you brought to our attention at the start of business. I apologise for my part in yesterday's proceedings.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you for that, Mr Gaston. I have been on the wrong side of the Speaker on many occasions in my career, and it is part of life. I appreciate you doing that.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for your earlier rulings on business in the House. May I seek your ruling? The Principal Deputy Speaker devoted her Member's statement yesterday to me, and I am happy to be debated. However, I was not prewarned by the Principal Deputy Speaker that she would use her Member's statement to reflect on me. Will you rule on whether a Member should give advance notice when they are going to name another Member of this place?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I will consider that, Mr Brett.

Ministerial Statements

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Minister for Infrastructure has given notice that he wishes to make a statement. I call the Minister for Infrastructure.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you, Mr Speaker.]

Before I formally introduce the statement, I add my sympathies to the friends and family of Jody Gormley. He is a great loss to them and to the entire community.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle

[Translation: Mr Speaker]

and in compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following statement to the Assembly about the British-Irish Council (BIC) planning and places ministerial meeting that I chaired on 8 November 2004 in Derry and at which junior Minister Cameron was also in attendance.

Members will be aware that the British-Irish Council, established in 1999, is a forum for its members to discuss, consult and cooperate on matters of mutual interest that are within the competence of its member Administrations. The British-Irish Council planning and places work sector is chaired by my Department on behalf of the Executive. The group provides a constructive forum for sharing best practice on issues of common interest and promotes practical collaboration.

The ministerial meeting held on 8 November 2024 in Derry focused on the work that the planning and places work sector had taken forward between 2021 and 2024 in key areas of planning, particularly around the revitalisation of towns and building better places in the context of the COVID recovery. Ministers commended the work that had been done and endorsed both the work sector report and a 'Placemaking in Practice' report, which was compiled following a symposium held in Cardiff in September 2023.

Ministers agreed the forward work programme for 2025-27, which focuses on two themes: climate change and the biodiversity emergency; and skills and capacity for the public-sector planning profession.

Member Administrations face the urgent challenge of addressing climate change and the impacts on biodiversity, with limited resources and within a context of continuing planning reforms. The planning and places work sector will identify key challenges and share and learn from examples of best practice. Among the focuses will be managing flood risk; the loss, promotion and enhancement of biodiversity; and delivery of greater carbon efficiency in new developments.

Attracting and retaining planning staff in the public sector is also a growing challenge, at a time when many public-sector planners face ever-increasing workloads and continuously changing policy contexts, especially in relation to complex biodiversity and nature issues. The work sector will explore ways to attract people and build capacity in the planning profession, with an emphasis on the sharing of knowledge from Administrations that have developed successful approaches to those issues.

At the meeting, Ministers also heard from Mark Hand of the Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI), who gave a presentation on tackling the climate and nature emergencies: opportunities and challenges across the Administrations.

As I said, the Executive were represented at the ministerial meeting by myself and junior Minister Cameron. The Government of Guernsey were represented by Deputy Victoria Oliver, President of the Development and Planning Authority. The Government of Ireland were represented by Mr Paul Hogan, assistant secretary for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The Isle of Man Government were represented by Diane Kelsey, Member of Legislative Council and political member on the Cabinet Office Board with delegated responsibility for planning policy. The Government of Jersey were represented by Deputy Steve Luce, Minister for the Environment. The Scottish Government were represented by Ivan McKee, Minister for Public Finance. The British Government were represented by Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Lords Minister for Housing and Local Government. The Welsh Government were represented by Rebecca Evans, Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. I place on record my thanks to those ministerial colleagues from across the BIC member Administrations who attended the ministerial meeting, and I look forward to seeing how the forward work plan develops.

I am happy to take questions from Members.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas.

[Translation: I thank the Minister for his statement.]

The urgency with which we must act to address climate change cannot be overstated, and planning is a key component of that. Has the Minister identified any approaches elsewhere that, if adopted here, would allow for swifter decisions on renewable energy applications and help us to meet our climate obligations?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As I said in my statement, the forward work programme was agreed. The meeting was interesting, both in the formal setting and at the bilaterals that took place. Although the challenges may be of different scales across the jurisdictions, there are many common themes to them, of which climate change is one. The forward work programme will look at climate change and at how we, as planning authorities, ensure that there is a more effective and efficient planning regime going forward. My officials will continue to engage with other jurisdictions on the matter to ensure that, in planning, which is often a contested space, each side of the debate has a fair hearing, that we are able to reach decisions in a more efficient and effective way and that we are able to meet the climate challenge that is coming at us.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. He said that attracting planning staff to the public sector and retaining them is a growing challenge and that the planning and places work sector will explore ways in which to attract people and build capacity. We can learn from Administrations that have successful approaches, so can the Minister provide some examples of measures implemented elsewhere that have been successful? Will they be considered here? Can he also confirm whether any measures will be aimed at the wider public sector, including at councils, given their importance to the planning system?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

That issue is a forward work stream for the British-Irish Council. It has been placed on the agenda because there is a recognition across the Administrations that recruiting planners to the public sector and retaining them is a challenge. There is a focus on planning, which, at times, is understandable, but everyone has to be encouraged to approach the issue in a respectful and courteous manner and ensure that those who work in the public sector are respected. They have roles to carry out, and, as politicians, we set the policies. It is not the civil servants or planners who set them. They have to administer those policies in a fair and equitable way. I look forward to learning from examples from other Administrations, and, yes, we will share best practice with councils.

Peter McReynolds (Alliance, Belfast East)

Minister, an important part of placemaking, for connectivity purposes, is our roads. Was tackling congestion discussed during the meeting, and what best practice did you hear about?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Spatial planning and how we connect people forms part of that. There was no specific discussion about traffic congestion. We perhaps have to look at roads in a slightly different way than we did 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Roads are no longer simply for cars. Roads are for pedestrians, cyclists, taxis and public transport, and that brings with it its own challenges. As we move forward with our spatial planning strategies, all those matters will be integrated into them. In fact, they have already been integrated. Look at our transport plans. The eastern transport plan, for example, will cover the greater Belfast area. We also look towards Fermanagh and Omagh and towards Derry. We are therefore at an advanced stage with our transport plans. How we use our roads, who uses our roads and why we use our roads are crucial elements.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, can you expand a bit on the conversations that you have had with other jurisdictions and whether there has been any sharing of learning or ideas that we can incorporate into our plans?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I found the engagement, both in the formal setting and at the bilaterals, very useful. It is interesting to note the common opportunities and the common challenges that exist, but, as I said earlier, the challenges are of different scales. Such gatherings are also vital for enabling our officials to get to know one another so that they can establish contact with officials from elsewhere. Those officials can then learn best practice from one another.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Minister, what specific initiatives were discussed to support the revitalisation of towns in Northern Ireland as part of the post-COVID recovery?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We looked at how we use our towns differently, not only by supporting retail in town centres but by opening them back up so that they can become areas where people live.

There are areas where there is not only a daytime economy through retail but a night-time economy through socialisation and so on. There are also living towns, where people live and where there are community facilities. People go into those towns late in the evening, not only to socialise but to use the community facilities. It has been an interesting conversation, and it is one that will continue.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, you mentioned the need to resource the planning system. What plans do you have to increase funding in that area?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The past number of inflationary increases in funding to the Planning Service have allowed it, particularly in councils, to recoup more of its costs so that it can invest in its planning system. I am looking at other ways in which I can support planning, and I have mentioned the transformation fund, which the Executive have made available, a number of times in the House. I have made a bid to that fund to recruit independent examiners for the planning system. That bid is at the final stage, and I am hopeful that it will be successful. If it is successful, it will allow us to address the backlog of planning applications that are before the Planning Appeals Commission.

Andrew McMurray (Alliance, South Down)

Thank you, Minister. What role does the Minister see planning play in addressing climate change and the nature emergency?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I think that planning is crucial in that. Planning will set out how, where and why we live in certain locations and how we connect with each other, what type of buildings we live in, what the infrastructure is around those buildings and how we use our places around us to improve the environment and improve biodiversity. So, planning is a crucial part of tackling climate change. It is a crucial part of tackling the biodiversity crisis as well.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, will you consider offering planning apprenticeships to get more people into planning?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. That is a useful suggestion. We have introduced apprenticeships for our engineers in the Department, which have proved to be quite successful in terms of recruitment. We have to look at all options to make planning an attractive career option to school-leavers and others. It is a very rewarding career. You are, quite literally, shaping the future. You will be involved in the drawing of plans and the approval of plans that will be with us for generations to come, so it is a very rewarding career in that way. It brings its own challenges and it is front facing with the public, but, as I said earlier, we all have to engage with our planning service, whether it is on a one-to-one basis or in public, in a more respectful way and in a way that acknowledges that planners have a very difficult role. They have to, and they do, adhere to the legislation that we, as legislators, put before them.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Can the Minister give us any examples of lessons that have been learned or conclusions that have been reached about managing flood risks, and will those impact on the prioritisation of flood alleviation plans such as those for Antrim town, which are long-awaited and have been requested by me and other reps?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

All jurisdictions face similar challenges to me on the financing of flood prevention matters. Interestingly, all areas are looking at how we work with nature on flood risk. There will continue to be a need for hard infrastructure, including concrete defences, albeit they will be put behind much more pleasant facades so you do not just have grey concrete looking at you. All areas are looking at how we work with and use nature to prevent flooding in the first place.

Cheryl Brownlee (DUP, East Antrim)

One of the PAC reports recommended that planning authorities regularly review their past decisions to understand the real-world outcomes and impact on communities and the quality of the completed developments. Minister, what review has taken place, and if it has, what actions will be taken from it?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member may be aware that we have a planning improvement programme in place, on which there have been regular meetings since the publication of the PAC's report into planning. We are beginning to see improvements based on a number of the recommendations. Better resourcing of planning was a recommendation, and we have done that. Another was to introduce, through legislation, validation checklists when a planning application is submitted, and we have done that.

My officials are currently — now — out meeting council planners to discuss their experiences and our experiences of the planning process and how we can learn from and pass on best practice from one council to another and, indeed, my Department. There has been significant improvement in the planning process. A lot of work is still to be done, but we are on the right trajectory.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Given the conversations about flooding, did the Minister pick up any tips about any speedy interventions that could be made? We are one year down the road from the flooding in Downpatrick, with little to no evidence of any interventions that could help to prevent a recurrence of flooding. Local residents and businesses are exceptionally nervous. Was there anything from the meeting that could help those businesses and residents?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

One thing that I picked up is that speedy solutions to flooding are not a good idea. Putting in defences or rushing at an issue is not a good idea. You could create a more significant problem not only for the people whom you wish to protect but for other residents who live further downstream or near the area. I am sure that that is frustrating — understandably — for businesses and residents, but we have to get the answers right when putting in physical defences for flooding. I note, however, that my officials were heavily engaged with businesses and residents in areas that were previously affected by flooding in the run-up to Storm Bert, and resilience groups were on standby in areas of south Down as well. They ensured that a supply of sandbags was in place in case flooding occurred. The measures taken thus far by my predecessors and others prevented thousands of homes and businesses from being flooded at the weekend and during other flooding events. Yes, there is a lot more work to do, but a lot has been done in that area.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

Given that there are many renewable energy projects in the planning system and that our planning timelines are significantly longer than those of other UK nations and the Irish Republic, how will the Minister work to accelerate renewable energy developments?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am finalising a policy that I hope to bring to the Executive before the end of this calendar year. I have worked closely with Executive colleagues, particularly the Economy Minister, on that green energy policy and how planning deals with it. When that policy is introduced, it will be of huge benefit to the green energy sector, but it will be balanced with the rights and entitlements of citizens who live in the area where structures may be constructed, because, at times, it is a contested issue. I believe that the work that we have done with Executive colleagues and the Minister for the Economy will pay benefits.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

That concludes questions on the statement.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I have received notice from the Minister of Health that he wishes to make a statement.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to make a statement today on the publication of the health and social care three-year plan.

When Professor Bengoa visited Northern Ireland in October, I was clear that I intended to publish a plan setting out my ambitions until the end of this mandate. The publication today of the strategic three-year plan does exactly that. I recognise that our health and social care system continues to be under severe pressure, and, with the onset of winter, the coming weeks and months will not be easy. Despite that challenging context, I believe that it is important to rise above the day-to-day and embrace the opportunity for reform.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Blair] in the Chair)

We continue to face many interconnected challenges, which have been widely rehearsed, not least during the Bengoa event in October. Our waiting lists are simply unacceptable, and we continue to experience high and persistent levels of health inequalities. I have been clear on many occasions that it is for everybody, including my Department, the health and social care system, the Executive and the wider public sector to support people to stay well and live healthy lives. That is because our population’s health is, to a large degree, impacted on by factors such as housing, education, employment and the broader socio-economic environment. Of course, behaviours and health and social care interventions also play a part, but these issues need a robust cross-government approach.

Before I go into the detail of the three-year plan, I want to acknowledge the fantastic effort and commitment of our staff. They really are our health and social care service. Without the excellent care that they provide on a daily basis, we would not have a service at all, nor could we bring about the changes that we need to improve services for the benefit of all. That is why I have remained fully and absolutely committed to resolving the pay award for this year. Stabilisation is one of the key pillars of my three-year plan, and central to that will be ensuring that staff are properly recognised and rewarded for the great work that they do. I shall retain a major focus on the recruitment and retention of our staff. I advise the Assembly that I will be meeting unions later today as part of ongoing work to secure pay settlements for the 2024-25 financial year. I go into those discussions committed to stabilisation, to getting a good deal over the line and to fair and equal pay, which, I hope, remains the policy position of the entire Executive.

With progress on that important issue, I turn to the detail of the plan. It is structured around commitments in the three key areas of stabilisation, reform and delivery. With the incredibly challenging budget position, stabilisation is inevitably a strong immediate focus, not least in minimising the impacts of the £200 million-plus of savings that have been delivered by trusts this year. As I have mentioned, a critical plank of the stabilisation agenda will be to continue to deliver the pay awards that our health and social care staff deserve. That extends to staff working in the independent adult social care sector. My ambition is to make that sector a real-living-wage sector. I am determined not to be found wanting in that regard, especially given the importance that that has for our ability to successfully recruit and retain sufficient levels of staff.

Progress on the reform agenda continues. Despite the pandemic and the difficult budgetary environment, we have made tangible progress across multiple areas. There is, of course, much more to do, and the plan published today sets out my reform ambitions. It is important to be clear that reform is not a silver bullet that will solve everything. It is, however, what is needed to give our staff and the public hope that there is a bright future for our health and social care service. I am determined to support people to live healthier lives and to tackle health inequalities. That is why I intend to embed the Live Better initiative into our mainstream way of working; develop a new obesity strategic framework; implement the Northern Ireland provisions in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill; and introduce proposals for minimum unit pricing for alcohol. Subject to funding, I also intend to put in place a new lung screening programme and an expanded bowel screening programme.

A lot has been said about the "shift left", meaning to provide services closer to people's homes. A number of measures in the three-year plan will support that shift. First, by April of next year, I will publish a plan for the completion of implementation of the multidisciplinary team model across all areas of Northern Ireland. Subject to additional funding being secured, we will be much closer to that objective by April 2027. By that point, phased implementation will be under way, with anticipated investment of £19 million to expand the model to a further five new GP federation areas with a combined population of 670,000 people. That will mean that approximately 50% of the population will be covered, compared with about 30% today. The rest will follow as a priority.

Secondly, again subject to funding, I am keen to invest a further £15 million in our community and GP pharmacy services and an additional £17 million in our mental health services to support greater integration with the voluntary and community sector. Thirdly, I plan to implement within this mandate — again, as far as funding allows — new models for delivery of home or domiciliary care services, learning disability services and children’s social care services and a regionally consistent contract for care home placements. Finally, I want to see reform of dental services progressing in the coming years.

Turning to hospital services, I have launched a public consultation on a new network approach, and I look forward to seeing the outcome of that consultation next year. Good progress has been made on implementation of the elective care framework with the roll-out of elective care centres and rapid diagnostic centres. Whilst the day procedure centres and elective overnight stay centres have had a positive impact on waiting times, as a result of our wholly intolerable waiting-time position, it is essential that we drive through further improvements in productivity levels to maximise the number of patients being cared for. The Department has been driving forward targeted measures to ensure that trusts are delivering 100% of all commission sessions and that efficiency and productivity across the elective care centres are maximised.

The most recent published statistical information, as of 30 September 2024, for inpatient or day-case treatment waiting lists across the Northern, Southern and Western Trusts shows that there has been a 20% decrease in numbers waiting since the same month last year. That is 12,115 cases in real terms. Taking into account the data available for the Belfast and South Eastern Trusts, that represents a decrease of 5·5% in the number waiting since the same month last year. However, whilst there are some areas of improvement, I am mindful that, overall, our waiting times remain unacceptable. There are still far too many people waiting for far too long for outpatient assessment, for example.

As I have said, reform is necessary, but it is not sufficient to address the many deep-seated issues that are impacting on our health and social care services. Therefore, in addition to significant additional funding, we need a relentless focus on performance and productivity. To that end, I have challenged the health and social care trusts to deliver 46,000 additional outpatient assessments and 11,000 additional treatments annually by 2027.

One in two of us will receive a cancer diagnosis in our lifetime. That is the harsh reality that we face today. Currently, cancer services cannot meet that level of need, and the cancer strategy clearly outlines the need to transform the way in which we deliver cancer services for people throughout our community. We must deliver new and innovative ways of preventing cancer, supporting early diagnosis and delivering better care for cancer patients. Over the past two years, we have seen good progress on the delivery of a wide range of key cancer strategy actions. Key examples of progress to date include the development of services to provide genomic testing for cancer patients, investment in an oncology and hematology implementation plan and work to review patient pathways. Also, we have established minimum standards for adolescent and young adult cancer services. The rapid diagnostic centre model will ensure quicker access to red-flag services, and it will increase the survival chances of those patients. I have commissioned strategic reviews of breast cancer and radiotherapy services. The reviews will inform how those services should be delivered in the future, allowing equity of access for all patients across the region.

The actions identified in the next phase of cancer strategy implementation, which is for the period 2025-28, provide a real opportunity to deliver positive change and service outcomes that everybody expects and deserves. That, along with the actions emerging from the strategic service reviews, will provide the basis for cancer service transformation. I am confident that that will provide a more sustainable approach for the delivery of cancer services and ensure that the early detection and treatment of cancer are at the core of our future response.

The implementation of the Encompass programme should help to enable those improvements in productivity. I am determined that the health and social care system maximises the benefits that can be had from digital reform. That will include making full use of the rich data that will be available to us.

I anticipate reform of neurology and stroke services, the outcome of which will be subject to consultation and funding availability. There is a need to reform pathology services, and I intend to have a single management structure for all pathology and blood transfusion services. I also intend to deliver a regional imaging academy to increase the supply of suitably trained clinicians.

I will continue with the important implementation of the urgent and emergency care review, and I will move ahead with strategic initiatives on quality and safety. Those will include bringing forward a consultation on replacing the current serious adverse incident process, and that will happen early in the new year.

Today, I am pleased to launch a 14-week consultation — slightly extended to take account of the Christmas break — on a new Being Open framework, and on the issue of duty of candour in Northern Ireland.

I am determined to advance proposals for an organisational duty of candour as well as considering proposals for an individual duty of candour in the coming months. Being open and honest is critical to safe and effective healthcare. We want to create a culture in which our health service staff feel safe, supported and empowered to speak up when things go wrong in the certainty that their concerns will be listened to and acted on. We want to create a culture in which the public can have confidence that, if mistakes are made, they will be informed quickly and accurately about what has happened. The Being Open framework seeks to put in place the necessary support and systems to enable and nurture a truly open culture and help to prevent patient harm. I encourage the public to get involved and have their say.

The three-year plan is realistic and ambitious. Of course, the pace of progress will depend on future Budget settlements and, indeed, on successful partnership working in the Executive. If we all work together, we can meaningfully improve population health, support people to live healthy lives and provide the conditions for our health and social care system to thrive. I commend the three-year plan to the Assembly.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Minister, thank you for your statement.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

We have a three-year plan that is packed with statements such as, "opportunities to reform", "I am committed to", "There is more I can do", "I will publish", "I will review", "I want to see" and all of it subject to funding that is yet to be allocated. Does the Minister agree that we need a concrete, tangible, fully funded, time-bound programme that is supported by the whole Executive to make the changes that we need and to save our health service? Regrettably, this statement is not it.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the spokesman for the Opposition for his comment. He is clearly living in the ideal world. I live in the practical world, where we have a four-party mandatory coalition. I am doing what I can.

As for definites, you will notice that I said that I have set a target of an additional 46,000 outpatient assessments and 11,000 treatments by 2027, so there is some concrete, time-bound detail in the plan. Of course I would like more — everybody would like more — but this is the real world.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It is certainly ambitious, but it is very welcome. There is so much in it that we have been working on in the Committee, so I am pleased to see that the Minister is listening. Thank you for that.

I turn to the piece on cancer services. We would all agree that improvements are much needed and much welcomed. It would be remiss of me not to mention the formidable Jody Gormley, who, sadly, lost his life and his battle with cancer just last night.

Minister, you alluded to the cancer strategy in the statement, so will you indicate whether that is based on full funding of the strategy? If possible, will you elaborate a bit more on the lung screening programme? We have been speaking about that recently in Committee, and we had the event in Stormont on it.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

First, I join in offering condolences to the friends of Jody Gormley, who, as you say, has tragically passed away in the past 24 hours.

Full funding is one of the major challenges that we face. You have heard me say it before on the mental health strategy: we have about one eighth of the money that, we thought, we would require to implement the action plan for this year. Red flag and critical is where we are, and where we are is talking about sustainability, because the budget is not where we would like it to be.

I welcome the fact that you think that it is an ambitious plan, but it is also a realistic plan. I hope that my officials and I can continue to work with the Committee through some of that detail, because we are listening and you have that statutory ability to assist and advise the Department and me in our work. I hope that we can continue to do that in delivering on the plan.

Alan Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement today. Minister, in your statement, you say that you have challenged the health trusts to carry out an additional 11,000 treatments a year by 2027. Will you provide more detail to the House? Is that for cancer treatment, or what area of healthcare are you referring to?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

That is a broad ambition, and the outworkings are still to be developed. What you will see in the coming weeks and months will be detailed annual plans, the first of which should be published shortly after the Budget for 2025-26 is agreed.

I will make a more general point, if I may, on something that I alluded to in Question Time yesterday, I think: challenging the trusts. We have commissioned scheduled lists of surgery in our acute hospitals, and we are monitoring those. A few months ago, I put the trusts on notice that I wanted to see them make a strenuous effort to achieve 100% delivery. As of a couple of days ago, we have, for the first time, told trusts that we are taking money back for elective surgeries that were on the lists but not performed. To my mind, that is the vision of the future over the rest of the mandate. If the Department of Health is paying for and commissioning services, those services either get delivered or we take the money back and use it for some other service. A pound wasted in one area is a pound that could be devoted somewhere else, not just within Health. It could be devoted to tackling the social determinants of bad health in education, housing and all the rest.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for the statement. We respect the fact that there is a difficult budgetary environment, but we also recognise that, since 2003, our spending in health per head has risen faster than it has in any other nation in the UK, so, clearly, something is going wrong, because we are not having better outcomes. Unfortunately, the statement reads full of contradictions. The Minister says that he wants to implement greater lung and bowel screening, subject to funding, but, later in the statement, he says that he wants to move more towards preventative measures. What is the priority? It costs us more to do nothing or stand still; it costs us more when we do not put the money into prevention. Will the Minister outline his current priorities and what he can do to give a bit of hope that health inequalities will be tackled by way of preventative measures?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for her question and comments, but I see no contradiction. You need to do both. As I said in my first comments here as Health Minister, if you took a blank map of Northern Ireland and asked yourself, "Do you want to design a health and social care system?", the answer would, I think, be yes, but then you get into judgement calls about whether it is about prevention or cure. Of course, it has to be both, because, no matter how good you are at prevention and early intervention, people will still get sick. Therefore, you still need your acute hospitals and the screening programmes that she referred to.

My ambition is clear: it is that shift left and getting care away from acute hospitals and delivering healthcare in the home, ideally, or, if not in the home, as close to it as possible. That means investing more in GP surgeries, Community Pharmacy and community health initiatives such as my Live Better initiative. That has always been my ambition and where I want to shift to, but that does not mean that we will be closing acute hospitals because we do not need them. I just hope that we would need them less and that people would stay healthier for longer.

On health inequalities, look at the difference between two women growing up maybe a mile apart in this city — one in the area of least deprivation and one in the area of most deprivation. Their healthy life expectancy varies by 14·2 years. Those are my ambitions; that is where I am trying to get to.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

My party and I welcome and support this timely plan. Our Health and Social Care (HSC) workforce will be critical in the delivery of many of the ambitions set out in today's plan. I wish the Minister well in his discussions later with the trade unions. Does the Minister hope that, moving forward, it might be possible to avoid the constant uncertainty and destabilising effect that delays in honouring the annual pay awards inevitably contribute towards?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. I am meeting unions later today. We have had previous discussions about how I would hope to honour the national pay parity awards, and it was made clear to me by the unions that my language, which included such words as "ambition" and such phrases as "using best endeavours", was not acceptable. When I meet them later today, my language, I hope, will be more pleasing, or agreeable — let me put it that way.

The Member referred to future activity. It is my ambition — rather, it is my intent — that, all things being equal, when the pay bodies make their pay recommendations for the 2025-26 financial year, I will accept them and begin implementing the awards with immediate effect.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, there is much in the statement that will be beneficial to all genders in our community, but I am a bit concerned that there is no specific mention of women's healthcare. We know that we lag way behind in actioning women's healthcare. I would like a bit more detail on that.

Is the single management structure for pathology services a recommendation that came out of the serious scandal in my area — the Southern Trust area — where 17,500 women had to be recalled for smears? Will doing that give confidence to women that, when they go for a smear — I encourage everybody to go for one — they will get the right result at the other end?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for the questions that she poses. Is having a single authority a product of that? To an extent, yes, it is. As the Member alluded to, it is very important that, among women, we restore confidence in the service and in its ability to deliver. She will be aware that there has been a move from cytology to HPV screening, which is a much more robust assessment.

Having that kind of single authority sits with my idea that, although we have five geographic trusts regionally, I look at them as one. I am looking for regional excellence by taking best practice wherever we find it and making it common practice so that we have that kind of consistency and get away from a postcode lottery.

On women's health, the Member will be aware that we are bringing forward a women's action plan. That is where the detail will be. I hope that that action plan will eventually inform the creation of a women's health strategy. I know that we are not doing one at the moment, but is a strategy that does not have the funding to back it up really worth anything, if we cannot deliver on it? We are starting with a action plan, but I support, in principle, the development of a strategy in future times.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I have so many questions that it is hard to pick which one to ask. First, however, I welcome the announcement about lung screening. Along with colleagues, I sponsored an event here at which Cathy Brokenshire really adequately made the case for the need for lung screening in Northern Ireland. I am keen to see the detail on that.

What does the Minister mean by "dental reform"? We have a crisis at the minute because of the number of dentists who are moving from NHS to private work. Will that reform look at the funding models? Will it look at dentists' pay? In my area, we do not have a proper out-of-hours emergency dental service, so that needs to be looked at. I want to see detail on what "dental reform" means.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for bringing up the subject, because it is raised with me daily, not least by Members on behalf of their constituents. She will be aware that my predecessor, Robin Swann, put several million pounds into dental treatment, but we still have a problem with dentists deciding that they will focus on private work. The issue is therefore becoming very challenging and extremely difficult.

When I talk about reform, I do not want to scare the horses, but we may need to do something radical, because dentists have a lot of power within their grasp to decide whether to do NHS work or private work. We can presume that the private work is very profitable and agreeable to them. The reform therefore has to be something really fundamental that encourages that shift to reverse so that there are more dentists and more time being spent on NHS dental work. The detail remains to be worked out. I am simply identifying the issue as a large challenge that has to be tackled, because so many people need the service to change.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. There is a lot to digest in it and, like Mrs Erskine, I have a lot of questions. The Minister will be aware that the number of people in Northern Ireland recorded as waiting for an appointment with a hospital consultant recently reached its highest ever level. As of the end of September, 506,612 people were waiting to be seen. The statement mentions a decrease in waiting times, but the trajectory appears to be going in the opposite direction. How many of the people mentioned in the decrease in the statement have left the lists altogether in order to go private or for some other reason rather than being seen? When will people in Northern Ireland who are on those waiting lists start to see a difference in waiting times?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Some of the waiting times have improved. I emphasise again that, overall, the picture is not acceptable and needs a lot more work. However, when we talk about specific numbers and we say that the total number of people who are waiting for an appointment is x, that is not necessarily accurate, in that I could be on three different waiting lists. Disaggregating that might make a difference, but it might only be marginal, so I only mention it in passing. Some of the lists are getting better.

Our direction of travel includes rapid diagnostic centres, mega-clinics and the separating of elective and emergency care. Those are all going to help. However, we still need to have a laser-like focus on efficiency and productivity. When I go to the trusts, I am very aware that I am asking them to do two things at once: save me a lot of money and be a lot more efficient and productive. In the next financial year, I hope that the focus will be on being efficient and productive. As I said, we are looking at the funding model. If we are doing the equivalent of ordering 10 items online and only seven arrive, we will only pay for seven. Currently, we are paying for 10, so that has to change. Addressing that will help with the waiting lists.

Colin Crawford (UUP, North Antrim)

I very much welcome the publication of the Minister's plan. How important will certainty and clarity on future funding levels be for the delivery of today's commitments, and does the Minister believe that there is now a greater recognition around the Executive table that, compared with multi-year funding, the worst way to plan and deliver a health service is through short-term and constantly shifting in-year settlements?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

It has certainly been a remarkable year for in-year shifts. We started the year by voting against the Budget because we anticipated the problems that were going to arise. I acknowledge that there have been two major investments through the June and October monitoring rounds, but we are still left with a very challenging position for the rest of the financial year, and that is having an impact on the speed with which we can try to settle the outstanding pay parity issues.

Everybody around the Executive table would very much welcome a multi-year Budget, and I believe that we are going to get there, not in the next financial year but in 2026-27. We are, of course, dependent on the UK Government taking a lead in that regard, but I feel confident that that is what is going to happen. With a multi-year — let us say a three-year — Budget, a lot more is possible, not just around stabilisation but in producing the reform that we need. We should bear in mind that, in October, Professor Bengoa warned that if we do not reform, Health will absorb the entire Northern Ireland block grant by 2040, which is not that far away. That would be the opposite of sustainable.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I want to pick up on your point about the anticipated reform of stroke services, the outcome of which will be subject to consultation. You will be aware that there was a pre-consultation in 2017 and a public consultation in 2019, and that an action plan with key actions was published in 2022. Your predecessor said that we did not need a strategy and that we needed an action plan. We know what needs to be delivered, yet there is no real progress on delivery. Are you able to provide us with an update on that matter?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for raising that point, which is an area of some frustration for me. You detailed the long and, to some extent, winding road that we have been on. We should be at the point where we are making ultimate decisions on the reform of where stroke services are delivered and which hospitals will become areas of specialism. I will certainly take that away. If it can be done without consultation, it should be, because speed is now the critical factor.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I begin by paying respects to my fellow Gael Jody Gormley, his wife, Deirdre, daughters, Aine and Niamh, and son, James. In recent weeks, we were all blown away by the heroic bravery and strength that he demonstrated on 'The GAA Social' podcast with Thomas Niblock and Oisín McConville. I measc na naomh go raibh sé.

[Translation: May he rest in peace.]

Minister, further to your statement, what would you say to the nurse who contacted me in the early hours of this morning — at 2.36 am — saying that, at present, she works three to four nights a week on a medical ward. She told me, "On a majority of those nights, I can be working with eight-plus agency staff. There is no continuity of care, and patients could have three different nurses looking after them in a day, which means 21 different faces in a week. Tablets can be left sitting in front of patients. They do not check to ensure that they have been taken. Patients who are mainly elderly and hard of hearing struggle to understand what is being said, leaving them unwilling to ask for assistance. Care assistants, again mainly agency staff, are coming from England, yet, when there are extra shifts"—

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McNulty, will you complete your question?

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

— "none are being offered to trust staff or local agencies".

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McNulty, will you complete your question and resume your seat?

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

"Infection control is jumping on nurses for having rings or nail polish on while" —

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McNulty, resume your seat.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

— "they turn a blind eye to patients trying to

[Inaudible]

"—.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McNulty, please resume your seat.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

— "or patients sitting on a commode".

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Minister, if you can recall some of that, go ahead with the answer.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

It was a very emotive start, and I certainly join the Member in expressing sympathy for the loss of Jody Gormley. When we think about the dignity of Sir Chris Hoy, who now faces a terminal illness, it is remarkable how some of our sportspeople give examples to all of us to follow.

As to the Member's substantive point, he should not imagine for one second that the workforce is not an extreme focus. Although we have more doctors and nurses than ever before, we have severe workforce challenges. I assure the Member, however, that, by and large, every day, when somebody has to go to hospital and stay as an inpatient, they are well looked after. I am not sure that what was actually a rant advances anything.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

It was not a rant.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Before we move on, I will address Mr McNulty. What began with a fitting tribute and an appropriate question became something other than that. I have referred to this before, but I want to remind you — this is an initial warning — that Members should not allow their conduct to become disorderly at any time.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Thank you, Minister for your statement, which included references to cancer. Do you recognise that cancer patients cannot wait and that cancer certainly does not wait? I express some disappointment that the statement is full of aspirations but short on detail. In respect of cancer services, Minister, can you tell us what you mean by "good progress", given the appalling waiting lists across Northern Ireland? Can you back that up with clear, measured evidence of the outcomes for cancer patients?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. The most appropriate thing that I can do is take that away and get you the sort of detail that you are looking for, rather than trying to recall it on the hoof. I take your point: what you quoted from the plan is a generalisation; you want the specifics. I accept that, and you have a right to request them.

Pádraig Delargy (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, I want to touch on the point that you made about dentistry. A number of dentists are in touch with us regularly, and I stress that the fact that they do private work is about sustainability, because they find that the funding model does not sustain their dental practice. You mentioned radical reform. Will you commit to reviewing the funding model, so that patients who access NHS dentistry are able to do so in a timely and efficient manner?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member. Of course, any review will look at the financing. We are very aware of the pressures, and not just in dentistry. We used to worry about nurses or doctors going off to Australia; now we worry about their going to Athlone, because, if you are talking about just salaries, it is very difficult to compete with Sláintecare. However, I gently say this to the Member: your party voted for the Budget. The Budget is a key factor in how much money we are able to devote to dentistry, GPs, rolling out multidisciplinary teams and all the rest.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I believe that you are genuinely interested in improving services for our constituents. I also believe that you are interested in holding the trusts to account, which is really welcome; it is high time. We have all been concerned about the performance of the cervical screening programme in the Southern Trust. Will you inform the House of whether the Belfast screening lab had its accreditation withdrawn last year, after an unannounced inspection by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS), relating to the years 2013 to 2023? If that was an issue, why did the PHA give the centralised screening contract to the Belfast Trust?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I am entirely unaware of what the Member is stating, but clearly it is something that, if true, is very serious. I will take it away immediately after this session and ask the appropriate questions.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It contains some ambitious targets. He has told us of plans to take money back from trusts that are unable to meet targets. What analysis will there be, or is there, of why trusts are not able to meet those targets? It may be due to staff shortages, for example, in border areas, where the retention and attraction of staff is more difficult. How will the Minister ensure that the approach does not perpetuate those problems and widen the disparity that exists between some trusts and others that are struggling through no fault of their own?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. There will be an analysis. Let us say that there is an elective list that is scheduled for this afternoon. If, for reasons beyond the trust's control, a key member of the workforce, such as the anaesthetist or the surgeon, is unable to attend — perhaps they have been involved in a road traffic collision — it would be unfair to penalise the trust for that situation. However, there are other situations in which the trust has some control. For example, it may have a week's notice that the anaesthetist will not be available next Tuesday. We would expect the trust to take action to try to make sure that that list goes ahead and is completed. We are going to take a very practical and reasonable approach to those things.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker in the Chair)

I acknowledged to Mr McNulty that the broader workforce challenge is a daily one for us. Although it is up to the trusts to manage those workforce challenges daily, it is up to us, as the Department, to look at a five- and 10-year plan, to anticipate what the needs are going to be, and to make sure that the training place numbers are right and that the universities and the other teaching areas have the facilities and the courses that we need to ensure that we have a workforce for the future and that we future-proof our workforce as much as we can.

Diana Armstrong (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Minister, I welcome the publication of today's plan, and I am pleased to hear about the "significant progress" that is being made on tackling waiting lists across more and more areas of our health service.

Overall, however, the Minister is clear that there is still much more to be done. Therefore, is he satisfied that trusts have a clear understanding that challenges with productivity and activity levels will be monitored and tackled robustly by his Department?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for the question. Yes, I am satisfied. I meet periodically with the chairs of the geographic trusts — in fact, the chairs of all the arm's-length bodies, including the Ambulance Service. I do not think that anybody in that group is unaware of the need for reform. Part of the measure of success of reform will be increased efficiency and productivity.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his statement and answers so far. His statement commenced by referencing the pressures that are on our health system and the likely difficulty over the winter period. That pressure will be felt particularly in accident and emergency departments, yet I see only a single sentence mentioning the urgent and emergency care review. When an ambulance is parked outside A&E, as well as the ambulance vehicle itself, there is a staff ratio of three, maybe four, people caring for the one patient.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Is there a question, Mr Kingston?

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

I just want to mention that I have had experience of that with a family member. What fundamental change — more physical space, staff or beds — is required to address that inefficiency and increase capacity in A&E departments?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

The reason for the lack of detail on winter preparedness in the plan is that a statement on winter preparedness has already been issued.

On the substantive issue, one thing that we are trying to do is provide alternative pathways to EDs. For example, there are ambulatory services in many of our acute hospitals and specific respiratory areas to which people can be signposted without having to go through the ED. There is the same for cardiac services. We are trying to get to a point where a GP who would currently assess a patient and refer them straight to the ED might be able to refer them so that they do not have to go through the ED and have a second assessment if that assessment is not needed. Let us say that a GP assesses that a patient has respiratory problems and there is a respiratory unit that is probably approximate to where the ED is geographically. The GP will refer the patient straight to the unit. That is how you take a bit of pressure off EDs, as well as, of course, trying to make people healthier and keep them healthier for longer.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

The Minister will, no doubt, recognise my regular communication with his Department on behalf of my constituents who are languishing on waiting lists. Indeed, I welcome his comments on waiting lists and the actions and initiatives that he is taking, but it is clear that much more work needs to be done. Can the Minister advise the House how much funding the Executive have allocated to his Department for specific waiting list initiatives?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

None.

Michelle Guy (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I welcome the consultation on serious adverse incidents. My constituents report to me that their issue is the fact that they do not feel heard and that it takes years for them to get any response. Will that actually change as a result of the consultation exercise?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for bringing up a very important issue. The serious adverse incident process is supposed to be a learning process. It is far too slow and is not fit for purpose. That is why it is under review. It will be reviewed within the broader context of the introduction of a duty of candour.

The House has debated whether the duty of candour should be organisational or individual and organisational, and, if it is to be individual, whether there should be criminal sanctions where people have not been open and candid. The proposed Hillsborough law that will come from the UK Government will also play into that. They are promising that legislation before the next anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster, so by April 2025, which is ambitious.

Here are the opportunities as I see them. There is an opportunity to be open and to have a Being Open framework, which I am about to publish for consultation. It is about looking at a duty of candour that might be placed on all public servants, not just those who are in the health service. Part of that is recognising that, if there is a serious adverse incident and something goes wrong, you and your family deserve to be told at pace what went wrong, why it went wrong and what we are doing to try to ensure that it never happens again. Yesterday, I met a family who lost a loved one to cervical cancer in the Southern Trust. This is my duty, and it is a privilege that those families feel that they can share their experiences with me. I say this to the Member: I would like to get to the position where I never have to meet another family in that situation.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Minister, you have said quite a lot about health inequalities in the past few days, which is welcome. Like others, I am very concerned about health inequalities in NHS dentistry. There is a class divide, in that, quite often, wealthier people are able to get access to dentistry while working-class people are literally left to rot. You talked about the reform of dental services. Will that include the expansion of NHS dentistry?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his comments. He will be aware that the Live Better initiative, which will come on stream very soon, has two demonstration areas, one of which is in West Belfast. When we spoke with people in that area about the services that they want, their feedback put dentistry on the list. That will be important, because if we can get better results and show empirically that the Live Better initiative in West Belfast has delivered better dentistry outcomes, we can use that evidence to roll it out further across Northern Ireland. Ultimately, it comes back to this: can we reform in a way that encourages dentists to do more work in the health and social care system rather than to use their time to offer private services, as is the trend at the moment?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

That concludes questions on the statement.

Executive Committee Business

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The next items of business are motions to approve draft statutory rules (SRs), both of which relate to climate change. I will ask the Clerk to read the first motion and then call the Minister to move it. The Minister will then be invited to commence the debate on both motions, which are listed in the Order Paper. When all Members who wish to speak have done so, I will put the Question on the first motion. The second motion will then be read into the record, and I will call the Minister to move it. The Question will then be put on that motion straight away. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I beg to move

That the draft Climate Change (Carbon Budgets 2023-2037) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 be approved.

The following motion stood in the Order Paper:

That the draft Climate Change (2040 Emissions Target) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 be approved.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Minister. The Business Committee has agreed that there should be no time limit on the debate. I call the Minister to open the debate on both motions.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I am grateful for the opportunity to move the motion. Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, I thank you for agreeing that the debate should be held. It will cover the detail of the draft Climate Change (Carbon Budgets 2023-2037) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 and the draft Climate Change (2040 Emissions Target) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024. I seek the Assembly's approval for the two statutory rules.

First, it is important to set out that the regulations are being introduced to deliver on the statutory requirements that the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 placed on my Department. As you know, the Act sets a legal target for Northern Ireland to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, which is in keeping with similar net zero targets at UK and EU level and those that have been legislated for in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Section 23 of the Act requires my Department to make regulations to set carbon budgets. A carbon budget sets a limit on the maximum amount of greenhouse gas emissions that are permitted within a five-year period. Carbon budgets are a key mechanism for reducing our greenhouse gas emissions to put Northern Ireland on track to meet our 2030, 2040 and 2050 statutory targets in a planned and gradual way. The first three carbon budget periods are 2023-2027, 2028-2032 and 2033-2037.

The carbon budget regulations should have been set by the Assembly in December of last year. We have a legal duty to set carbon budgets and interim targets, and that has been the case since 2022. The legal deadline for making the regulations has been significantly passed. My Department is in breach of the law and is already facing legal challenges. It is, therefore, vital that we take action now to put the legislation in place. Wasting our limited resources on defending a missed deadline serves no one's interests.

As required by the Act, advice was sought from the UK Climate Change Committee (CCC). The CCC published its advice in a report entitled 'The path to a Net Zero Northern Ireland' in March 2023. The SRs that I have laid in the Assembly, which are being debated today, are in line with the CCC's recommendations.

In summary, the carbon budget regulations will set the first carbon budget at an average annual reduction of 33%. The second carbon budget will be set at an average annual reduction of 48%, and the third carbon budget will be set at an average annual reduction of 62%. The 2040 emissions target regulations will set an emissions reduction target of 77% against the baseline.

I turn to the 2030 target. The CCC recommended that an emissions reduction target for 2030 should remain at a reduction of at least 48% against the baseline. That is the current target in the Act, and, in line with the CCC's advice, I do not propose to amend it. In accordance with the requirements of the Act, I laid a written ministerial statement yesterday, which set out my reasons for retaining that target.

Between June and October last year, my Department ran a lengthy, 16-week public consultation on the emissions reduction targets and the first three carbon budgets. The consultation received 235 written responses. Over 700 people attended the 21 consultation events, including three specifically aimed at young people. In the responses, there was consistently over 70%, and up to 78%, support for setting the targets and carbon budgets in line with the recommendations provided by the CCC. At the events, the consensus was similar to the results of the consultation, with a majority saying that we should trust the science and follow the advice provided by the CCC.

We need to set our targets and carbon budgets to maintain pace with other nations. It is important to be clear that every one of our neighbouring nations on these islands has targets that are not only equal to but, in many cases, more ambitious than what I propose through this legislation. We see a strengthening of the ambition from other Governments and an increase in the targets. Just last month, the UK Prime Minister announced an 81% emissions reduction target by 2035 for the whole of the UK. My counterparts in Wales have a 2050 net zero target that is similar to ours, but, this year, they put in place a pathway to decarbonise their public sector by 2030. We all know that Scotland is changing its 2030 target, but it is important to provide the context that the Scottish 2030 target matches my proposal for Northern Ireland for 2040. Scotland is moving to a carbon budget approach, and I am proposing the same approach today. The Scottish Government have also been clear that they are still working towards their net zero target for 2045, ahead of the rest of the UK.

Members, there is no rolling back from other countries. Ireland — a country that faces the same challenges as us on decarbonisation of the agriculture sector and the need for greater forestation and peatland restoration — has a 2030 target to reduce emissions by 51%: a higher target than we have. Over 139 countries worldwide are working towards a net zero target. That is over 90% of global GDP. We need to set carbon budgets and send a clear message that we will do our part in the global transformation and Northern Ireland will not be left behind.

We run the risk of not even being at the starting line of the race to reduce emissions if we miss out on taking advantage of the economic, societal and environmental opportunities available through net zero action, and that is why today is crucial.

In the discussion about taking the necessary climate action, much of the focus has been on costs. Members will have seen the detailed regulatory impact assessments (RIAs) conducted on the SRs and will note that the CCC has advised that any estimated costs are not solely to the public purse. They would be delivered by investment from the private sector at a UK level and socialised across the UK.

For our first carbon budget period, our estimates are showing a net benefit. It is when we consider more expensive technologies for the third carbon budget that costs increase, but, as ever, technology is improving. The costs are coming down all the time. There is no requirement for us to implement engineered removals. Different and more affordable pathways to reducing emissions are open to us. Fundamentally, it is the cost involved in doing nothing that will put most pressure on our public finances and the wider economy. We have recently seen across the UK and Europe the devastating consequences of climate change. It is vital that we work to improve infrastructure and connectivity and allow our economy to evolve at the same pace as those of our neighbours.

The estimates also do not include all the benefits of climate action, which we term "carbon value". There are significant benefits for all the people here if we fully embrace the opportunities provided by green growth not only through welcome investment in green energy, employment opportunities and the benefits of decarbonisation but through increased energy security. It is also clear that strong climate and environmental credentials are essential if we are to attract inward investment, maximise economic opportunities and compete on an international scale while showcasing the best of Northern Ireland. We can address and improve our productivity problems, increase incomes and, perhaps most importantly, improve the health and well-being of our citizens, particularly the most vulnerable in our society. It is essential that we take every opportunity to provide clarity to investors and businesses here and internationally that we have a stable and long-term commitment to decarbonisation in order to ensure that, as a region, we do not miss out on this generational opportunity.

In determining costs associated with delivering net zero, it is important to recognise that upfront costs represent investments in an improved society for future generations. We have not only a legal duty but a moral duty to do so. We have seen the tragedies in other parts of the world caused by climate change. Some people have lost their livelihood, while others have lost their life. I know that we play just a small part in that global challenge, but let us not be the place that waits for others to step up. Let us not be the people who sit back when we see others suffering. We in Northern Ireland are better than that. We need to listen to the young people here and in every other country who are calling on political leaders to take action and lead by example.

Just as important, however, we cannot allow our economy to fall behind. Across the world, Governments are investing for net zero. They are innovating, building skill sets in the workforce and expanding infrastructure. We cannot allow ourselves to stay on dial-up while all our neighbours work off fibre-optic. As well as being the right thing to do, setting the targets and carbon budgets today is key to realising the many opportunities and benefits for all of society. All the national and international research shows that decarbonisation can bring substantial economic and social co-benefits, particularly for the natural environment and public health. Reducing emissions leads to improvements in people's lives as a result of improved water quality, cleaner air and better diets. The benefits obtained from increased physical activity through the use of active travel can have a positive impact on health and well-being outcomes for our citizens.

Improving energy efficiency, as well as reducing carbon, reduces energy costs for hard-pressed families. Better housing also brings other health and well-being benefits, such as fewer respiratory problems and allergies. More active travel and the move to electric vehicles will reduce congestion and benefit the whole population's health by improving air quality and reducing pollution. Fine particulate matter from the burning of fossil fuels, such as coal or diesel, is among the most toxic types of air pollution, with the potential to cause asthma, cancer, heart disease and premature death. Look at the pressures on our Health budget. Ignore climate change and set aside our economy: many of the investments involved in order to meet our carbon budgets make sense on health impacts alone.

Many of you will be concerned about the impacts of taking climate action. Many, including me, are concerned about the impacts of not taking climate action. I reassure you that, for both of the statutory rules, there has been a detailed regulatory impact assessment; a rural needs impact assessment; equality impact screening; and a children's rights impact assessment. The Act also requires my Department to complete a financial, social and economic impact assessment. Each of those assessments undertaken shows that there will be societal benefits from future policies that Departments develop and implement to reduce emissions.

In addition, the Act requires all Northern Ireland Departments to have regard to the just transition principle when deciding on their emissions reduction proposals and policies. Before any policy or programme is implemented, just transition must be considered. The just transition principle in the Act seeks to ensure that the benefits of a greener economy are shared widely across all sectors. A just transition requires a whole-of-society approach to tackling climate change and its impacts, an approach that seeks to promote inclusion and to respect human rights whilst promoting development and the creation of decent work and quality jobs. There is a level of protection and scrutiny involved in the implementation of the carbon budgets and targets that has never been here before.

As Minister with responsibility for agriculture, I know that the just transition is key. Many people in the farming community have felt under siege, not least from the actions of the Westminster Government over recent weeks. I will continue relentlessly to challenge those decisions by the Westminster Government. I hope that some will take solace from the unity that we have shown as an Assembly in standing together and showing support for them in the face of those decisions by the Chancellor.

Our farming community should not fear the carbon budgets and the targets. The reality is that many farmers see at first hand the impact that climate change is having here already. They can see it in the increased severity and frequency of flooding; the increased number of wildfires; and the increased cost of supplies. They see how farming has become more and more expensive. I reassure the agriculture community that my Department understands those challenges, but I also recognise that we have to change to keep up with the transforming world and to protect our agricultural and rural communities. The just transition principle will be fundamental to ensuring fairness during the transition from a high-emission economy to a low-emission economy and to ensuring that support is provided where it is needed.

It is important that I clarify for all Members that the carbon budgets and targets are set at a regional level. They do not specify what each sector has to achieve. How we choose to reach the targets is up to us. Some sectors are already overachieving, which will allow time for other policies to be developed with stakeholders, tested, assessed for impact and delivered.

On the issue of clarity for business, we need to set targets and the accompanying carbon budgets now. It is important to create a clear signal to businesses and provide greater policy certainty to encourage much-needed investment that will create new opportunities for existing companies to expand and diversify into new markets; drive innovation; improve productivity; and create new, quality green jobs and economic resilience. Setting carbon budgets and an emissions reduction target for 2040 is an essential step towards mitigating climate change, protecting our well-being and fostering a thriving economy that works in harmony with our environment. I look forward to the debate and hope that Members will support the proposed legislation.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for what he has laid out this morning. I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Committee on these important draft regulations, which, as we know, will implement the main elements of the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022, which the Assembly passed. The regulations include a 2040 emissions target and the requirement to set five-year carbon budgets to cap emissions. Not every member of the Committee was supportive of the draft SRs, particularly the targets in them. I will go on to highlight some of those concerns shortly.

The Committee understands that the carbon budgets will be set at a Northern Ireland level rather than a sectoral level and wishes to take the opportunity to remind the House that all Departments are required, under the Climate Change Act 2022, to ensure that a carbon budget is achieved but that it will be the accumulative impact of reductions in emissions across each sector that will enable it to be met. The climate action plan is to be the driver to help to ensure that the first carbon budget is achieved, and it would, of course, have been more helpful for the Committee to see the plan alongside the regulations.

We know that the Climate Change Committee provided advice to DAERA in March 2023 on what it considered to be appropriate emission reduction targets for 2030 and 2040 on the basis of its report 'The Path to a Net Zero Northern Ireland'. Those have been set out: a 48% reduction in emissions is the 2030 target in the Act, which has already been agreed, and a 77% reduction in emissions by 2040 against the baseline is the proposed target in one of the draft SRs before us today.

I assure the House that the Committee has been actively monitoring the Department's implementation of the elements of the Climate Change Act, and the Minister and officials have been diligent in keeping us informed of progress through substantial written and oral briefings. The working relationship has been positive, and we wish to continue that. However, on this occasion, the Committee was asked to work to an extremely tight timescale. This has not been the Minister's way to date with us, and we hope that this was an outlier and that, in future, if there are specific reasons why matters of this importance require such a turnaround, we will be provided with better notice and detailed rationale. As Chair, I have been burning the midnight oil to read through the detail and get up to date to ensure that it gets the scrutiny that it deserves. I am sure that every member of the Committee can attest to that. As the Minster is aware, the Committee takes its scrutiny role seriously, and I would not wish to make it appear that we have rushed any part of the scrutiny. In reality, we are trying to assist the Department with a tight turnaround on a very important matter.

The Committee has been particularly interested in scrutinising progress towards the establishment of the just transition commission. We believe that getting the just transition right is the key to ensuring that, during the transition to a net zero society, no one is left behind or disproportionately affected. On a recent visit to the Loughry campus of the College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE), we focused our meeting on hearing from a range of rural networks and support groups. Time and time again, we heard the concerns of rural communities, including that their needs will not be considered sufficiently in the sectoral plans.

On 2 May, the Committee started its consideration of these policy matters when it had notification of the publication of the outcome of the consultation on Northern Ireland's 2030 and 2040 emission reduction targets and the first three carbon budgets. The Committee, at its meeting on 28 November, considered the SL1s for both sets of draft regulations. We had a detailed briefing from officials and heard that bringing forward the regulations was a statutory duty, that both SRs would be laid before the Assembly under the draft affirmative resolution procedure and that, as the SRs are cross-cutting, Executive approval had been secured on 21 November.

DAERA intends to make the Climate Change (Carbon Budgets 2023-2037) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 under powers conferred on it by section 23 of the Act. The first carbon budget is to be set at a level that has a 33% average annual reduction in emissions against the baseline; the second a 48% average annual reduction against the baseline; and the third a 62% average annual reduction against the same baseline. The Committee also heard that DAERA intends to make the Climate Change (2040 Emissions Target) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 to set a 2040 emission reduction target of 77% under powers conferred on it by section 5(2) of the same Act.

There then followed a robust question and answer session with officials, as members recognised the tight timescale and had concerns that they wished to see explored. There was no consensus. A range of views was expressed around the Committee table. As Chair, I expressed my concerns that Northern Ireland was well down the league table of moving towards net zero and that I did not wish to see that continue but would like to see the targets progress.

Some members expressed concerns that the carbon budget emissions targets are, like the proposed 2040 target, too ambitious, and that too many moving parts need to fall into place if the targets are to be met. For example, significant investment is needed, but the budget is not there, and input from the private sector has not been pinned down. However, officials reminded members that a lot of money is now being spent from the baseline and that the aim is to spend that baseline with better focus in the blocks of time for achieving the carbon budget targets. Other members were keen to see the regulations proceed at pace, as Northern Ireland is already behind in that regard, but it was accepted that some sectors will move faster than others and that the potential for some sectors to offset other, slower-moving sectors needs to be considered.

In general, Committee members were concerned about the particular challenges for people from rural communities, and the Committee wanted to ensure that the Department takes that into consideration when developing policy and mitigation. A just transition for rural areas is vital, and it is the responsibility of all Departments. Officials said that they were planning for benefits as we strive towards the targets and highlighted the fact that new green jobs and technologies are being created in countries that are pushing ahead with the changes. The Minister has alluded to that, so, in his winding-up speech, perhaps he could point to where some of those jobs and technologies are likely to be created and where they have been identified for Northern Ireland. Officials then described good interdepartmental working and what that looks like in practice to ensure that sectoral plans are moving in the right direction. They added that the strategic oversight group meets regularly and that there are now a sectoral leads working group and a climate change team in every Department.

The outcome of the SL1 consideration was that the Committee noted that the draft SR would be debated in the Chamber and was content that my speech reflect the various views and issues raised. I hope that I have managed to do that, but I am sure that individual members will be happy to add to the issues in their own speeches. At its meeting on 5 December, the Committee considered the draft SRs as laid in the Business Office. The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting of 28 November, which highlighted the range of views expressed the previous week. As I was on business with another Committee in Scotland on 5 December, I was not able to attend the meeting at which the Committee considered the draft SRs as laid. I thank the Deputy Chair for chairing that meeting, and I thank my Committee colleagues for undertaking the scrutiny of the draft SRs to the timescales needed, hence my need to burn the midnight oil since then.

The Committee noted the Chair's statement, and the Deputy Chair put the following questions to the Committee. Question one, does the Committee support the draft SRs going to the Chamber for debate next week for the House to have its say and make the decisions? Does the Committee support the content of the draft SRs? The result of the vote was four ayes and two noes, showing that the majority of Committee members present supported the draft SRs being debated today and supported the draft SRs.

That ends my comments as Chair, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. If you will indulge me, I will make some comments as agriculture, environment and rural affairs spokesperson for the Ulster Unionist Party and on my own behalf. As someone who is absolutely passionate about and loves and cares for the very fabric of Northern Ireland, I, and the Ulster Unionist Party, recognise that the decisions that we make today will shape and determine the environmental legacy that we leave for future generations. The draft Climate Change (Carbon Budgets 2023-2037) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 and the draft Climate Change (2040 Emissions Target) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 set ambitious targets that not only demand the commitment of all sectors and all of society but, in the view of the Ulster Unionist Party, require leadership from our departmental and statutory bodies in particular. It has been said that leadership is not about being in charge but about taking care of those in your charge. Our Departments must embody that principle, leading by example to demonstrate that achieving these targets is not only possible but vital. Departments must prioritise sustainable practice in their operations. Departmental and statutory bodes can inspire confidence and collaboration across all sectors if they lead the way and do not fail.

I must acknowledge the understandable nervousness in the agriculture community. Farmers are being asked to implement significant changes at a time of immense economic pressure. Many feel caught between conflicting demands: the imperative to adopt greener practices and the harsh reality of financial survival. As has often been said, farmers want to be green, but they cannot be green if they are in the red.

It is not enough to ask farmers and industries to bear the weight of change without offering clarity and certainty in return. The reality of a just transition must be more than a principle; it must be a plan. We must articulate clearly how that phase will provide the financial support, technical guidance and practical solutions that are needed to empower those on the front lines of this transformation. Farmers, in particular, need assurances that their sacrifices will be met with tangible support, not vague commitments. Delivering on that promise is the key to maintaining their trust and ensuring their continued participation in the collective effort to meet our climate goals. Failure to do so will risk alienating the very people whose cooperation we most urgently require. That is why it is crucial to ensure that climate policies are accompanied by robust support mechanisms.

Indeed, article 1 of the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 recognises that by setting a reduced target for methane emissions of around 46%, and not the 100% of other greenhouse gases, which acknowledges the unique challenges faced by our agri-food sector. That demonstrates, within our own legislation, a pragmatic understanding of the vital role that agriculture plays in our economy and food security. However, it must go further. Farmers must have access to tools, funding and knowledge if they are to transition into sustainable practice without jeopardising their livelihoods.

Added to that are the external pressures emanating from trade agreements such as the EU Mercosur deal. That deal, which would open the door to lower food standards and increase deforestation in South America, threatens the viability of farms not only in Northern Ireland but across these very islands. It is a stark reminder of the broader context in which we operate. It is unacceptable that decisions that are made elsewhere, particularly under the auspices of the Northern Ireland protocol, continue to deepen our democratic deficit. The message that we send must be clear: our farmers, and the high standards that they uphold, must come before trade-offs that are likely to exacerbate global climate failures and diminish food quality. We cannot allow deforestation in the Amazon to undermine the commitments made under these draft regulations, but nor can we ask our farmers to compete on an unlevel playing field, where imported goods are produced at the expense of global biodiversity and carbon reductions.

Let us remember that the challenges before us are significant but so, too, are our responsibilities. We owe it to our farmers, our rural communities and our children that our environment is protected, and we need to ensure that the transition to net zero, which is achievable, is also rooted in common sense.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I am going to speak relatively briefly about the regulations. Our representative on the AERA Committee, Patsy McGlone, is unwell, so is unable to be in the Chamber, and we send him our best wishes.

The SDLP broadly welcomes the regulations that have been laid by the AERA Minister. It is important to note a couple of contextual things first of all. Northern Ireland has, frankly, been a shameful laggard for far too long when it comes to climate action. At the very last minute, in the dying embers of the previous Assembly mandate, we did agree a Climate Change Act, which, for the first time, put in place binding targets for tackling the climate emergency, reducing emissions and reaching net zero. We were also the last jurisdiction on these islands to have such targets placed into law.

What matters now is that those targets are backed up with meaningful action that can deliver on them. First of all, we need the regulations that are being laid today. However, we also need, after this, meaningful climate action plans, and I acknowledge and understand that those are going to have to get through the Northern Ireland Executive.

These questions and trade-offs are not easy, but climate change is not easy, either. We are already living with the consequences of climate change. We saw that last weekend with the devastating impact of storm Darragh. On this island, some of the impacts of climate change are, in one sense, less dramatic for us than they are for other parts of the world, where people face loss of life, loss of home and the most profound shift in how they will be obliged to live. On this island, we will face significant disruption, and we need to manage climate change. As the Member who spoke previously said, we also need to ensure that those who are impacted on by how we shift our economy and how we deliver on those climate change obligations are not only protected through a just transition, particularly for agriculture, but, where they are in industry, are helped and guided to deliver on their emissions targets and obligations.

Those are not easy questions. They are not easy for any jurisdiction in the world. They certainly are not easy for a jurisdiction that is addicted to collapse and dysfunction. It calls to all of us to be serious about our job as legislators to confront, in many ways, the most profound challenge that any democracy is facing this century. It behoves all of us to be serious about our obligations and about the targets. That is why we welcome the fact that the regulations have been laid today.

As I said, retaining the 2030 emissions reduction target of at least 48% below baseline and setting a 20:40 target of 77% demonstrates a welcome commitment to tackle the climate emergency. Those are essential steps that align Northern Ireland with a trajectory to net zero by 2050, as outlined in the Climate Change Act 2008. However, as I said, those steps are necessary but not sufficient. They will be, in a sense, meaningless without urgent action to deliver on them and make them real.

As I said, the stark reality is that the impacts of climate change are already here. We cannot afford complacency. The recent storms and the devastating floods that we have seen disrupted livelihoods, damaged infrastructure and illustrated in stark detail the vulnerability of our communities. We saw it in towns and cities across the island and in this region. That is climate change. What happened last year in my home town of Downpatrick is climate change. That is the climate changing and affecting how we live, do business and go about our everyday lives. This is not an abstract preoccupation for lefties or progressives; it is a real, meaningful challenge that will affect all of us and how we live our lives.

As I said, quite rightly, climate action cannot and must not be confined to one Department. In many ways, it is the ultimate cross-cutting issue, and the targets and regulations will be delivered only with meaningful cross-departmental action. We will be robust with the AERA Minister in bringing forward proposals on climate action and on the broader questions of biodiversity, environmental protection and calling for the most robust and urgent action. We have been robust with him at times in the Chamber. We will also support him when he shows ambition and when others are less likely to show ambition.

Climate change demands decisive, cohesive action across the Executive. While the regulations are crucial, these questions remain: what comes next? Are the Executive capable of delivering on that? We need a planning system that enables the rapid and large-scale roll-out of renewable energy projects. We need an economic model that places sustainability at the heart of our prosperity, acknowledging that a thriving economy is intrinsically linked to a stable climate. In our debate later this afternoon, when we will talk about the protocol, I will talk a bit more about the opportunities, which include those to use our dual market access and our position in relation to both markets and both decarbonisation agendas, which are being driven from London and Brussels, to our economic advantage.

Unfortunately, like a lot of the Executive's work thus far, good intentions have not translated into action. We welcome the targets being set out today, but, ultimately, we will judge the Executive on the action that follows. It is, however, a welcome step to see the regulations being laid before us today. It is also important to acknowledge that they are a year late. That goes back to the point about the structural dysfunction that we have in this place and the fact that things like climate action end up being subject to the whims of our political dysfunction.

We also have to recognise the fact that several key provisions of the Climate Change Act, which was passed here with great aplomb in 2022, remain undelivered. Those include the establishment of a climate commissioner, so it would be helpful, when the Minister sums up, for him to talk a little bit about those outstanding actions. The climate commissioner's role is vital to ensuring accountability and driving progress. Let us not delay on this work. We need to get real, and we all need to be serious about making those targets a reality.

That includes reassuring and engaging with all the sectors that will have to feel the brunt of some of the changes but can also benefit from how we adjust the way in which we work our economy. That includes our agri-food sector, which delivers huge economic benefits for this region and wants to be part of the agenda. However, we need to be clear about the targets and how we intend to deliver on them.

As I said, the urgency of climate action, which is, in many ways, the ultimate question facing us for the remainder of the century, demands meaningful and practical action, and it demands that we, as legislators, are serious about our responsibilities. To that end, we welcome the regulations that are being laid before the Assembly, but we hope that they are followed up with more detail on a climate action plan and more practical action, driven by the Executive with honesty and clarity.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

As Sinn Féin's spokesperson on the environment and climate, I am happy to speak in support of both motions.

Last month, 'The Lancet' countdown on health and climate change report revealed that people in every country face record-breaking threats to health and well-being from the rapidly changing climate. That is why the Climate Change Act is one of the most important Bills that we have passed here. Research found that, last year, people were exposed to 50 more days of health-threatening temperatures than would be expected without climate change. It also found that extreme drought affected 48% of the global land area and that 151 million more people were now experiencing food insecurity. The blame for that was laid squarely at the feet of global Governments, who, 'The Lancet' states, are "fuelling the fire" with persistent investment in fossil fuels, all-time high energy-related greenhouse gas emissions and years of delays in adopting renewable and net zero technologies and practices.

The Climate Change Act was our line in the sand and a commitment to no longer fuel that fire. The carbon budgets and interim targets before us today are crucial parts of that Act. They are ambitious but achievable, and they will keep us on track to meet our net zero goals while ensuring that we have the time and space to build in just transition safeguards to protect people, incomes and industries. Nobody will be left behind. I support the motions and commend them to the House.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

In rising to speak in the debate, I want to make it clear that we will not support the draft regulations. I heard the Member from the Opposition speak about the weekend's storm. He tied it in with climate change. Is it not strange that today, no matter what happens, it is all down to climate change? If we have a hot summer, with no rain or little rain, it is because of climate change; if we have a summer with quite a bit of rain, it is down to climate change; if we have a windstorm, it is down to climate change. I remember from when I was a boy that we had much worse storms than we had at the weekend; we had summer after summer with great weather and little rain; and we had summers when there was quite a bit of rain. It was not down to climate change; it was exactly what was taking place at that time. Therefore, I find it strange that, no matter what happens today, it is all put down to climate change.

I will set out why we are not in a position to support the regulations. The DUP supports the United Kingdom's long-term net zero ambitions and will advocate policy and initiatives that are environmentally responsible and support decarbonisation. We appreciate that there is a role for ambitious and flexible emissions targets in driving forward progress, but we are extremely concerned that recent legislation, including that in Northern Ireland, has been rushed, is poorly drafted and conflicts with the independent scientific advice from the Climate Change Committee.

There is no question that more sustainable policies in such areas as energy, housing and transport can bring benefits for the standards of living enjoyed by people in Northern Ireland and help to tackle deprivation and isolation. Many of our citizens, however, perceive climate action as resulting in higher taxes and increased costs for basic goods and services and a residual threat to jobs and livelihoods, particularly in farming communities. Those of us who are close to farming communities and speak to them hear their concerns about the targets and their implications for their business. It comes at a time when our families face the highest tax burden since the Second World War.

Minister, there must be a fair transition that is inclusive of all communities, households and industries and addresses the looming threat of further costs from changes to emissions trading schemes and the impact of the EU's carbon border adjustment mechanism (CBAM) on trade between GB and Northern Ireland. There is a risk that unfair and unworkable environmental targets that are levied on local farm businesses may lead to conditions, including a reduction in livestock numbers, that usher in a reliance on foreign, cheaper produce that is farmed in conditions and to a standard that we would never accept in the UK. If we are not careful, folks, that is the road that we will go down, should we press on with the stringent targets that are before the House today.

Section 1 of the Climate Change Act 2022 states:

"Northern Ireland departments must ensure that the net Northern Ireland emissions account ... for the year 2050 is at least 100% lower than the baseline".

Minister, you will have heard the concerns raised by many respondents on the issue. Some of the proposed targets and budgets are unrealistic and not sustainable, given the impact that they will have on our citizens and on the economy. What about the impact on Northern Ireland's significant agri-food sector and rural communities; the potential detrimental impact on UK food security, including through the reduction of livestock numbers; the potential for social inequalities; the absence of a budgetary breakdown by sector; and the operational constraints of the planning system, which are a real hindrance to the farming community? I am sure that most if not all Members have placed that issue on the Minister's desk, yet there has been little done on it and little movement.

A recent Assembly Research and Information Service (RaISe ) paper, from the end of November 2024, states:

"The general assessment across all DAs"

— devolved Administrations —

"is that the transition to net-zero will be several billion pounds."

The paper points out that the draft green growth strategy states:

"In its Sixth Carbon Budget, the CCC estimates extra investment rising to around £1.3 billion annually from 2030 will be needed in Northern Ireland to meet our 2050 emissions targets in their 'Balanced Pathway' scenario."

The total net cost to Northern Ireland of the Climate Change Act's target of achieving net zero by 2050 is estimated to be £13·5 billion. Minister and Members, are you prepared to cripple our people with such a financial burden simply to meet such stringent targets in the Climate Change Act?

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Yes.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I will respond later to many of the Member's points. Will he acknowledge, however, that the Minister who moved the legislation at First Reading, Second Reading and Final Stage was a DUP Minister? You should have a bit more respect for your colleague who introduced the legislation in the first place.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Yes, but the Minister who has put forward the stringent targets and has refused to step back from them is you. We brought the issue to the House previously and asked you to step back from those stringent targets, but you refused to do so. The targets have therefore been put forward by you as Minister.

In light of what we have said, Minister, it is time to press the "Pause" button. We in the Democratic Unionist Party believe that there is an urgent need to inject a sense of realism into Northern Ireland's climate ambitions. Minister, there would be no shame in you and parties in the Assembly reflecting honestly on the implications of the targets enshrined in the Climate Change Act. Indeed, it would be a sign of maturity, at a time when public services are being pressed from pillar to post because of insufficient resources and a lack of reform, for all in the House to consider changing course.

We are deeply concerned that the SRs have been rushed and did not afford the Committee the proper time to scrutinise what was being proposed. Given the manner in which the Department approached the tabling of the regulations, there are concerns that the process could be subject to future judicial review. Therefore, we urge the Minister to reflect on that and to consider withdrawing the regulations today. The headline commitments in the carbon budgets and the 2040 emissions target are highly aspirational and entirely devoid of a concrete assessment of the policies and proposals that would need to be advanced by Departments and of the cost to Departments. Therefore, there is a real risk that you, Minister, are putting the cart before the horse by pressing ahead with the regulations in the absence of agreement on what represents a fair and sustainable transition for businesses, consumers and Departments, especially at a time when we need to transform and reform front-line services for the benefit of all.

Section 23 of the Climate Change Act requires DAERA to consult the just transition commission and the Northern Ireland Climate Commissioner, both of which were required to be established under the Act, on proposed carbon budgets. Yet, the Department has indicated that, once they are established, there will be an engagement with those bodies on relevant issues, including future carbon budgets. Surely that will be too late: the damage of the aspirational targets, including their impact on public spending, will have been done. That engagement should have been taking place prior to the regulations being brought before the House.

Is the House content to bury its head in the sand on such exorbitant costs, or will it face the stark facts and pause the passage of the regulations to allow sufficient time for proper scrutiny and engagement with the relevant bodies? We do not believe that the targets can be met within the time frame that has been set. They will be detrimental to businesses and the farming community and will have huge and crippling financial consequences. Therefore, we ask the House to give serious consideration to what is before it today and to vote against the regulations.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

At the outset, I want to be clear on behalf of Alliance that I support the two crucial sets of regulations. The first set of regulations will establish the initial three carbon budgets for Northern Ireland, guiding our carbon emissions strategy through to 2037. The second set of regulations will set a definitive emissions target of 77% by 2040, as laid out in the Climate Change Act 2022. Both sets of regulations provide us with essential frameworks for setting the groundwork for our long-term climate initiatives and ensuring that we meet our environmental obligations in a structured and measurable way.

It should be pointed out — the Minister and other contributors have referred to it — that all work thus far has been done in cooperation with the UK Climate Change Committee. The passing of the two sets of regulations will represent a critical advancement in our overall climate strategy and will serve as a testament to our commitment to confronting the pressing challenges that climate change brings for us all.

It is important to recognise that today marks the final sitting of the Assembly until 2025. By then, it will be three years since the Assembly unanimously passed the Climate Change Act, which the previous DUP Minister introduced. Were it not for that party's subsequent boycott of the Assembly, we would have made significant strides in implementing these vital regulations. I am thankful, however, that we now have in place a Minister who is thoroughly dedicated to promoting our environmental agenda. That is important because we simply cannot afford to continue to fall further behind.

I must voice my disappointment that certain members of the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, seem to have expressed their intention not to support these regulations. It is utterly baffling. The measures before us are a direct consequence of the Act brought by their Minister just three years ago and passed unanimously by the House, including the Members who now seem to be distancing themselves from it. This is like living in a parallel universe, not just in perception but in reality. It is most disheartening to witness the lack of backing for initiatives that are fundamentally important to achieving our climate objectives and safeguarding the future of our communities and international communities. While the regulations may well be ambitious in scope and their implementation may incur cost, we must also recognise that we are lagging seriously behind numerous other countries and regions that are taking decisive action to combat climate change. Moreover, in the long run, the financial implications of not implementing the regulations would be substantially more burdensome for all the people whom we represent. Meeting the goals established by the Climate Change Act is not just an aspiration, it is a necessary commitment that we made in the Chamber. Today, we are presented with an opportunity to fulfil some of the promises that we made. We have a moral obligation to do so. We also have a legal obligation to do so, as the Minister made clear earlier.

I reiterate what I conveyed in the Assembly just last week. We need actions, not words. I urge all Members to take a moment to reflect on their position, as our shared responsibility, locally and globally, to address the catastrophic impacts of climate change is becoming more urgent by the day. It is simply insufficient to continue postponing these critical issues for future consideration. We must join forces and work collaboratively to reach these ambitious targets and ensure that Northern Ireland actively contributes to the global fight against climate change. The time for small actions has passed. We need to take significant steps towards a sustainable future.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

I had not intended to speak in the debate, but I want to highlight some points, particularly as I am part of a younger generation that was attuned to the issue of climate change when growing up. We knew that some issues that affected our local communities were man-made and that they had a greater effect on people from more working-class areas but that climate change affected all of us across the region and whether we lived in Northern Ireland, the UK or anywhere on the globe. It is an issue that we cannot escape from.

The risks of not dealing with climate change will continue for all generations, including my children and their children, if we do not grasp the reality of it today. We need to stop burying our heads in the sand when dealing with the mitigations around carbon budgets. My colleague the Minister has already agreed to ensure that mitigations that can be made should be made. However, it is incumbent on every sector across Northern Ireland to get on board and maximise the potential to ensure that we deal with climate change. If we do not, we add to the risks across our community. We add to risks to our habitats; to the changing of our soil diversity and climatic conditions; to our natural carbon stores; to agricultural and forestry productivity; to agriculture and forestry from pests; to freshwater species; to habitats changing; to marine species; and to our infrastructure networks. The list goes on. That list is not unique to us here in Northern Ireland — it is across the globe — but it is incumbent on us, in the society that we live in, where we have the democratic methods by which to deal with climate change, to do so in order to play our part in the global fight against climate change and take the required action.

When the Assembly was down, I stood with many young people across Northern Ireland who were protesting then, before and since about climate change. I made a commitment to them that, if elected to the Assembly, I would do everything that I could to ensure that we tackle the issue. It is incumbent on every single one of us today, by supporting and voting for the regulations, to make that commitment in full today. I am proud to support my colleague's introduction of these regulations. They will ensure that we make progress in implementing the changes that we need here in Northern Ireland.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

The Member for West Tyrone referred to his recollection of weather as a child. Although it was somewhat interesting, it should not be taken as serious policy direction. It not about having some bad weather here or there; most of the hottest summers on record have occurred in the past 15 or so years. There is a pattern here, and that should inform policy and what Ministers and the Executive do. The pattern is one of a hotter planet, with hotter and more dangerous weather.

The North's per capita emissions are higher than those of other places, such as the UK, and emissions here are falling at a slower rate than the UK average. There has been a 23·2% reduction in the North, compared with the UK average of 48%. The Minister and Executive need to get on with the job and speed it up. The danger is not just shown in the recent storm on these shores, but in Valencia, in the summer, people died, homes were destroyed and communities were ravaged and wrecked by the climate and the planet's heating up. That, and worse, is what our future will look like.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I will.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

What happened when those lives were lost is a real concern for me. It is why I have introduced these regulations. Does the Member agree that lives are being lost beyond the places that we know and go on holiday to? We have a duty to citizens across the globe to tackle climate change. People are losing their homes and even their islands. They are not only losing their livelihoods; it goes way beyond that. We have a responsibility to stand up here in Northern Ireland and show leadership.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his intervention, and I agree. We have seen tens of millions of climate refugees across the world. Although we will be impacted in Ireland, England and elsewhere, it is mostly in the Global South where places such as Bangladesh will be submerged. We cannot be selfish: we have to look at other people across the world and make policies that will help them as well as people who live in this part of the world. However, I challenge the Minister somewhat: the North is not pulling its weight in tackling climate breakdown in the UK and Irish context. We are consuming far too many resources — far more than our fair share — in the global context. There has been a lot of discussion over the past few days about traffic problems, mostly against a backdrop of people being encouraged to spend and buy and repeat that cycle of consumerism every day.

The North is a climate laggard when it comes to reducing emissions. As a society, we need to stay well below the 1·5°C target in the Paris agreement as a bare minimum. However, it highly likely that the North is close to exceeding that carbon budget, if we have not surpassed it already. We urgently need to transition to a zero-carbon society as quickly as possible. There is no space in that society for fossil fuel infrastructure or exploitation. This is where I challenge the Minister — this is an obvious point that should not need to be made, but has to be. His Department is apparently heading to the Supreme Court to assert its right to plough ahead with the destructive gas caverns project at Larne lough. That is a waste of time and resources. There is utter doublespeak on that point from you, Minister.

The Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 contains the reduction target of at least 77% by 2040, as others have mentioned. More can, and must, be done. Minimum targets should not be interpreted as maximum targets. The 2040 target should not be treated as a goal but as a minimum reduction, with a clear intent and concrete plans to go beyond 77%. In reality, we probably need to be looking at net zero by 2030. Business as usual will not cut it when life itself on this planet is at stake.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I will respond to a number of points that were made in the debate. Hopefully, I will cover them all.

Some of you queried why I have moved to set the targets in the 2040 target, and alleged that it was done too quickly, but I have followed each step of the process. The carbon budgets and the interim 2030 and 2040 targets have been publicly consulted upon. They have been to the Committee and the Executive. They have also been to the Examiner of Statutory Rules. Everyone here can, rightly, say that they have expressed their opinion and have had their say. The carbon budget regulations should have been set by the Assembly in December 2023. That is yet another example of the consequences of stop-go government. We have a legal duty to set the carbon budgets. That has been the case since 2022. By not setting those SRs, my Department is in breach of the law. Any further delay only adds to staff resourcing pressures and the legal costs of defending a missed deadline. It is hard to stand over that continued diversion of public-sector budget and resource when our public sector and departmental budgets are under so much pressure and we have the solution in front of us today.

I have also heard the concerns around scrutiny. I remind Members that the CCC published its advice to Northern Ireland in March 2023. That was 21 months ago. It was when we did not have an Assembly. In the absence of the Assembly, my Department undertook a public consultation for over four months on the CCC's recommended figures. It provided illustrations of what those targets might mean so that people understood what decarbonisation means for each sector. Those who responded supported each of the pathways, consistently by over 70%. For some of the pathways, such as those on waste and recycling and improving the energy efficiency of houses and buildings, that support was over 80%. In May, the Department published two detailed reports analysing and presenting the findings from the consultation.

Since I came into office, I have, in response to repeated questions from Members, provided updates on my progress on delivering the statutory requirements of the Act. I have been clear, and it is no surprise to anyone, that I will take advice from the CCC, just as my counterparts in the UK have done. No one should be surprised about that today.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Minister give way?

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

Yes.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

The CCC gave clear guidance to the Committee on a number of occasions that it would be seriously damaging to try to reach net zero by 2050. The Climate Change Committee gave that advice to the Committee on a number of occasions and it has not been listened to. Does the Minister accept that Northern Ireland's contribution to global warming is 0·04%? It is a twenty-fifth of 1%. Are we to damage all our agricultural industries and import from regions that are contributing to global warming?

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I am aware of the CCC's advice. It is clear, and it will put out a further statement tomorrow, about the urgent need to transition towards decarbonisation. If we go down the road of saying, "Sure Northern Ireland is quite small, so we can pass on that", that is a complete abdication of leadership. The Assembly voted unanimously for that legislation at Third Reading. I am doing this not only out of a moral responsibility to future generations in Northern Ireland and people across the world who are facing the consequences of climate change but out of the desire to grasp the opportunities. At the British-Irish Council last week, it was clear that people everywhere else are getting with this. We face the real possibility of losing that race. What does that mean? It means that we lose the opportunity for good, green jobs for people in Northern Ireland.

Some of the contributions today do a real disservice to agriculture. I know farmers across Northern Ireland who know about the impacts of climate change, because they deal with them day and daily. They are getting on board with the interventions that will give them the resilience to go into the future with confidence in their business. I come to the matter very positively because of where we can go. I am very grateful for the fact that I got agreement at the Executive to bring the SRs to the Assembly. Hopefully, we will pass them and be able to move on.

I get people's concerns about the impact that carbon budgets might have on public finances. I know that the AERA Committee sought advice from RaISe on that, so people have asked those questions about it. However, people also need to understand the benefits of our making that investment. For example, investing in public transport may have benefits for us by reducing our greenhouse gas emissions, but — guess what? — it will also mean that people will be able to travel more quickly and easily around Northern Ireland and that there will not be as much congestion. It will also improve air quality. That relates to a just transition, because air quality often affects the most socially deprived people in Northern Ireland. I do not think that it is right for us to ask people to endure that. There are difficult decisions to be made. Maybe I am different, in that I am prepared not only to come to the Assembly, take difficult decisions and face up to it but to look at the issue in a positive fashion. The targets are there, and there is a legal obligation on us to take them forward.

The next step is to bring forward the first climate action plan. Matthew O'Toole mentioned the climate action plan, and Robbie mentioned the fact that the preference was to have the plan alongside the carbon budgets. The issue is that we need to do the budgets before we do the climate action plan. Hopefully, soon after I get agreement on the budgets, we can consult on the plan and I can share with you all the detailed facts in the action plan and where we are going with it.

I assure Members that any financial impacts will be dependent on normal budgetary decision-making. A process is in place to ensure that value for money is key and that the consideration of any policy, programme or project is part of that. Some of the costs of the cap will already be part of our existing programmes and budgets, as I outlined. For example, they relate to public transport and work that we are already doing. Some of the costs will relate to things that are already planned. For example, we have developed policies to reduce fuel poverty, improve infrastructure, strengthen our economy and deal with issues in our health budget. That all comes together as one joint collective action on climate change.

It is key that we recognise those actions as investment in our public services and our communities, better air quality, reduced pollution, improved water quality and better public transport. Fewer cars on the road will also tackle congestion. It is about investment in warmer, more comfortable homes, in buildings that cost less to run and in greater energy security. It is about investment in shopping local and improving biodiversity. All of us have expressed our concerns about Lough Neagh and reducing our emissions. That is another strand of the action that we will take on climate change. It is about investing in improving the health outcomes for people who live in cold and damp houses and have to travel to work through congested traffic that causes pollution. They do not have the resilience that many of us have to deal with fluctuating fuel and energy costs. Setting the carbon budgets for the 2040 target is about investing in our economic future and sending the message to local and international businesses and investors that we have a stable and long-term commitment to decarbonisation and that we are forward-facing and ready to embrace new technologies and employment opportunities.

In all the discussions about cost, let us remember that the UK impact assessment shows a £2·66 billion net present value benefit from reaching net zero. It is about putting it in context. Fundamentally, and this is a key point, doing nothing will cost us more. Carbon budgets and interim targets simply provide the trajectory to ensure that the actions that we take are gradual and fair. They mitigate the risk of having to take more radical action over shorter periods, which would result in significantly higher costs of mitigation and adaption measures and risk us losing out on economic and employment opportunities.

In the absence of carbon budgets, all Departments will still have to meet the targets in the Act. We are also bound by the requirements of the UK's 2008 Act. The two SRs that I ask you to affirm are to give us the pathway. It is not about pressing pause. It is about moving towards the pathway and allowing us to start the journey so that we can do it gradually and bring people, communities and sectors with us in a fair and just manner. Now is not the time to reduce the pace. Folks, we have not even started the marathon yet. We are at the start line, and some people are saying that they want to go back to the hotel. We need to get on the road. We need to be able to do it, and we need to give people in Northern Ireland hope that we are confident about our future.

I have also heard concerns about the level of our targets. I remind Members that the figures for carbon budgets that I have brought before the Assembly are reflective of the advice received from the CCC. Some Members have raised concerns about the net zero trajectory that we are on. The target was set over two years ago by the Assembly, but I remind Members that the CCC's advice has never said that Northern Ireland could not meet net zero. Indeed, its most recent, updated advice from 2023 confirms that we can meet our targets and provided us with a range of pathways to do so. That is why we will bring through the climate action plans.

Some Members have told me, in my role as Minister, that the legislation is flawed and that the targets in the Act are too hard. Yet when I attended New York's Climate Week, our legislation was the envy of others. The strength of social justice runs right through it: there is a safety net provided by the required impact assessments, a focus on just transition, and a systems approach of focusing on nature-based solutions, embedding biodiversity and soil and air-quality targets alongside climate action. Let me be clear: I will not change the Act to remove our net zero target. I am convinced by the swaths of science, evidence and case studies that show the benefits and opportunities that will be created as we reduce our emissions and achieve net zero, and I do not want Northern Ireland to miss out. The impacts of climate change are clearly no longer confined to academic reports and research papers. As Members have said, we can see its impacts, the instability that it causes and the huge financial and economic pressures that it brings.

I am not saying that it will be easy — I know that a marathon is hard: I have done 11 of them — but it is far from impossible. I have faith in this place; I have faith in the people of Northern Ireland; and I believe that we can do this. We have a strong history of innovation and problem-solving. In my Department, there is globally cutting-edge work on decarbonisation in the agriculture sector. Give farmers credit for the work that is being done: that sector is leading by example, and I am very proud of it.

My Executive colleagues, across lead-sector Departments, have policies and programmes in place that work, and they are also working to develop future policies. The policies will not only reduce carbon but insulate homes, bring down people's bills, give us greater energy security and, with EVs, reduce air pollution. We have globally leading science and technology, and we have the chance to embrace future industries that will attract green investment and have real economic benefits.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for giving way. I have waited for quite a while.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I am going to respond to your point.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

The point that I would like to get to, because you have referenced it a number of times, is that the CCC set the targets a number of months ago, and I am sure that the Committee will agree with me that that is absolutely a given point. However, our job is to scrutinise the Department's work and decisions and what you bring forward, Minister. I do not want to pre-empt it too much, but will you give the Committee clarity and confidence today that, when you bring forward the changes, ambition and plans, it will have reasonable time, rather than its being the way that the SL1 and SR were brought forward in this instance?

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

No problem, Robbie. I am happy to have had your intervention, and I will address your points. The key fundamental is the judicial review against my Department for not setting the carbon budgets, and that weighs on me. That is why it is important to do this, and I am grateful to the Business Committee for tabling the motions today for debate. Going forward, hopefully, we will not be subject to those judicial reviews as a result of our statutory obligations, and we will have that time for engagement.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for letting me in again. Will the Minister put on record whether there was any dissension in the Executive about tabling this piece? Obviously, it has been put through with the Executive's approval.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

The matter was brought to the Executive, and it received the Executive's approval. The Member will be aware that Executive business is confidential, and I hope that Members will be able to support the SRs in front of us today.

Every day, I meet business people, people from rural communities, those in the energy sector and farming, and those who work in food production, transport and recycling. Many of those people are leading the way. They are already taking action, empowering and educating their communities. They look at our changing world, and they want to play their part. Many of them have committed and are already taking part in the journey towards net zero, but they are looking for clarity. They are looking to the Assembly to set the ambition and for the framework to deliver on climate and environmental action. For the sake of the future of people here, we owe it to all our young people to step up, play our part and start delivering for Northern Ireland.

I hope that I have addressed your points. I have addressed the issues that you raised about the climate action plan, and we will bring forward that plan once we set the budgets. PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) recently released some research on green jobs, which I will send to you. That research gives us an understanding of from where growth is coming and the sectors involved.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for giving way again. This is a really important point. We met the rural support groups. If there is any financial impact on the farming and agriculture sector, just transition will need to kick in. A just transition can be created only if we travel that route. Will the green jobs be distributed equitably to ensure that those who live in rural areas can avail themselves of the opportunities?

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

The Member is moving ahead of himself. We will hopefully get the carbon budgets agreed today, but one of the next steps is to bring forward the climate action plan, get Executive agreement and then announce the green growth strategy. It is a cross-Executive strategy and is about securing good green jobs. I will be able to provide a bit more detail about that in the time ahead.

I was at the British-Irish Council meeting last Friday, at which I updated the UK Prime Minister, the Taoiseach and the leaders of the devolved Administrations that are part of the British Isles on our plan for the green growth strategy. I made a very strong case that, once we get the strategy agreed, we should be looking towards having a green new deal. As Minister, I am very keen to work with my Executive colleagues to continue on the trajectory towards green growth and towards delivering those good green jobs. A lot of good work is therefore under way. I am making the pitch for Northern Ireland, and I will continue to do so.

Achieving a just transition is absolutely key, and, when it is established, the just transition commission will be fundamental through its being able to give guidance and provide a scrutiny role. Its establishment is something else on which we have fallen behind. We were unable to progress the commission because of the lack of an Assembly.

Some of the other contributions from Members referenced the impact of trade deals. The next debate, on the democratic consent motion, will perhaps elucidate that. One of the perceived benefits of Brexit has been trade deals that the UK has done with other parts of the world, but they are not to the benefit of Northern Ireland, as far as I am concerned, and particularly not to the benefit of farmers. It was bizarre to see the UK Government announce some of their trade deals during this year's Balmoral show.

Matthew echoed my concerns about stop-go government and the impact that it has on so many aspects, including on what we are doing here setting the carbon budgets. He mentioned the climate commissioner. The Executive Office is progressing the establishment of that office.

Tom Buchanan raised a number of issues. I will not engage in the climate change denial that he did. Climate change is a reality. We see it, and we would do well to follow the science and evidence. Mention was made of the threat to jobs and livelihoods. That threat is real if we do not take action to address climate change, and, today, I am giving the Assembly an opportunity to move forward. People in Northern Ireland, especially farmers, need leadership, and I am giving that in spades. They do not need people who are in denial about issues, and I am very much not in denial. I am very realistic about climate change.

Most importantly, the Prime Minister of the UK said very clearly to the British-Irish Council that climate change is for real and that there will be devastating consequences if we do not act on achieving net zero. We have the single biggest opportunity of our time. It is a global race, and many are getting in the race. We in the UK have advantages, particularly when it comes to skills, but we should not just be in the race. Rather, we should be looking to win it. A just transition requires an active Government, and being active is what I am doing today. The Taoiseach, Simon Harris, said at the British-Irish Council meeting that climate change is a scientific reality. A just transition is not just about growing our economy but about raising living standards in a just way.

The First Minister of Scotland spoke about the need to give policy certainty and the importance of not leaving anyone behind. I do not seek to leave anyone behind. I seek to give leadership on the issue, and I seek to follow the leadership that many other people are demonstrating. Many businesses in Northern Ireland are getting on the road towards net zero and decarbonisation. Many have signed up to Business in the Community's climate action pledge: companies such as ABP Food Group, Almac, Belfast Harbour Commissioners, Danske Bank, Encirc, the Galgorm Group, GRAHAM, the Henry Group, Hughes Insurance, Northern Ireland Water, Translink and Wrightbus. Let us join them on that path. Let us show leadership and move towards net zero.

Question put.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 56; Noes 21

AYES

Dr Aiken, Mr Allen, Dr Archibald, Ms D Armstrong, Ms K Armstrong, Mr Baker, Mr Beattie, Mr Blair, Mr Boylan, Ms Bradshaw, Miss Brogan, Mr Butler, Mr Carroll, Mr Chambers, Mr Crawford, Mr Delargy, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dillon, Ms Dolan, Mr Donnelly, Mr Durkan, Ms Egan, Ms Ennis, Ms Ferguson, Mrs Guy, Miss Hargey, Mr Honeyford, Ms Hunter, Mr Kelly, Ms Kimmins, Mrs Long, Mr McAleer, Miss McAllister, Mr McGrath, Mr McGuigan, Mr McHugh, Ms McLaughlin, Mr McMurray, Mr McNulty, Mr McReynolds, Mrs Mason, Mr Mathison, Mr Muir, Ms Mulholland, Ms Á Murphy, Mr C Murphy, Ms Nicholl, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr O'Toole, Ms Reilly, Mr Sheehan, Ms Sheerin, Mr Stewart, Ms Sugden, Mr Tennyson

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr McMurray, Ms Nicholl

NOES

Mr Bradley, Mr Brooks, Ms Brownlee, Mr K Buchanan, Mr T Buchanan, Mr Buckley, Ms Bunting, Mr Clarke, Mrs Dodds, Mr Dunne, Mrs Erskine, Ms Forsythe, Mr Frew, Mr Gaston, Mr Harvey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kingston, Miss McIlveen, Mr Martin, Mr Middleton, Mr Robinson

Tellers for the Noes: Mr T Buchanan, Mr Harvey

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved:

That the draft Climate Change (Carbon Budgets 2023-2037) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 be approved.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I beg to move

That the draft Climate Change (2040 Emissions Target) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 be approved.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The motion has been debated. I have been advised that the party Whips are content that, in accordance with Standing Order 27(1A)(b), there is agreement that we can dispense with the three minutes and move straight to a Division.

Question put.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 54; Noes 21

AYES

Dr Aiken, Mr Allen, Dr Archibald, Ms D Armstrong, Ms K Armstrong, Mr Baker, Mr Beattie, Mr Blair, Mr Boylan, Ms Bradshaw, Miss Brogan, Mr Butler, Mr Carroll, Mr Chambers, Mr Crawford, Mr Delargy, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dillon, Ms Dolan, Mr Donnelly, Mr Durkan, Ms Egan, Ms Ferguson, Mrs Guy, Miss Hargey, Mr Honeyford, Ms Hunter, Mr Kelly, Ms Kimmins, Mrs Long, Mr McAleer, Miss McAllister, Mr McGrath, Mr McGuigan, Mr McHugh, Ms McLaughlin, Mr McMurray, Mr McNulty, Mr McReynolds, Mrs Mason, Mr Mathison, Mr Muir, Ms Mulholland, Ms Á Murphy, Mr C Murphy, Ms Nicholl, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr O'Toole, Ms Reilly, Mr Sheehan, Ms Sheerin, Ms Sugden, Mr Tennyson

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Donnelly, Mr McMurray

NOES

Mr Bradley, Mr Brooks, Ms Brownlee, Mr K Buchanan, Mr T Buchanan, Mr Buckley, Ms Bunting, Mr Clarke, Mrs Dodds, Mr Dunne, Mrs Erskine, Ms Forsythe, Mr Frew, Mr Gaston, Mr Harvey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kingston, Miss McIlveen, Mr Martin, Mr Middleton, Mr Robinson

Tellers for the Noes: Mr T Buchanan, Mr Harvey

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved:

That the draft Climate Change (2040 Emissions Target) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 be approved.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Members, please take your ease until Question Time at 2.00 pm.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Blair] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Infrastructure

Timothy Gaston (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

1. Mr Gaston asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline any research that was undertaken on the impact of closing the Boyne Bridge for a year on traders in the Sandy Row and Grosvenor Road areas. (AQO 1302/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In advance of the planning application in 2017, Translink undertook extensive community engagement in the Sandy Row and Grosvenor Road areas. Much of the feedback received was incorporated into the design for the new station, such as ensuring easy access to Sandy Row from the station, once the project was complete, retaining pedestrian access from Sandy Row to the city centre via the existing Europa bus station and significantly extending public realm works up Sandy Row.

I am also aware that Translink has been continually engaged with the local community, including businesses in the area, throughout the design and construction of the new station. That has included regular engagement with the local retailers' forum and face-to-face engagement with the businesses on Sandy Row in July 2023, and a presentation on the works was given to elected and community representatives in the area in February 2024. An update covering the Durham Street road closure was provided at a local community meeting in April 2024, and there was a letter drop to residents, community groups and businesses on 8 October 2024, providing full details of road closures and associated activity. Feedback from that more recent community engagement highlighted the fact that one of the benefits identified from the temporary closure of Durham Street would be the reduction in through traffic on Sandy Row, which had become an increasing issue for residents in the area.

I appreciate that there may be some impact on retailers in the area. As a result of that, Translink has reached out to the Linen Quarter Business Improvement District and other agencies to see whether there is an opportunity to work with local retailers to assist them during the transition phase while the works are completed.

Once completed, Saltwater Square will be a new public space in the city and one of the major points of the new station. It is envisaged that it will be used in a way similar to Custom House Square for public art, entertainment and leisure activities. It will also be a lively, busy place, providing opportunities for visitors, local residents and commuters.

Timothy Gaston (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Minister, I asked you yesterday:

"how many planning condition breaches has your Department been guilty of in relation to the closure and demolition of the Boyne Bridge?" — [Official Report (Hansard), 9 December 2024, p51, col 1].

You said that there had been none. In response to three questions for written answer last month, you told me that you were discharging a number of planning conditions relating to the Belfast transport hub that had originally been put in place to protect the unionist businesses on Sandy Row. What sort of messaging does it send to others when rules and regulations are an afterthought in your Department?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member needs to understand the distinct legal entity that is Translink. As I stated yesterday, my Department is not in breach of any planning conditions in relation to the planning application. My Department is working its way through a number of planning matters in Translink's programme of work in and around Grand Central station and other matters. The Member would do well to understand the legal entity that is Translink.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Minister, we talked yesterday about the traffic chaos in Belfast. You answered my question on the strategic oversight group. It is meeting not daily but weekly. It does not include the Chamber of Commerce or the business community. Yesterday, there was "Work from home" messaging from the Department, and you were then publicly embarrassed over bringing forward your meetings with businesses.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Is there a question?

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Why has engagement not taken place urgently on the traffic chaos in Belfast before now? We all knew that traffic chaos would come, so why has that taken until now?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Those who claim to have Belfast's interests at heart would do well not to broadcast constantly the fact that there is traffic chaos in Belfast. There is traffic congestion in Belfast. Last Thursday night was particularly difficult as a result of traffic accidents on the M1 and M2, the weather conditions and the failure of traffic lights on the Ormeau Road. If Members genuinely have Belfast's interests at heart, let us have a sensible, informed conversation about what is going on so that people who want to travel to Belfast to enjoy the sights and sounds of the festive season feel confident in doing so.

I did not say yesterday that the strategic group was meeting daily: I said that it had been meeting daily. Why are business groups not represented on it? It is not the right forum for the business groups. I have, however, given instructions to the group to improve its communications with the business groups, because they are key stakeholders.

In regard to my being embarrassed about overturning a decision, until I heard about it on the radio this morning, I was not aware that I would not be meeting the Chamber of Commerce until January. I am not involved in putting meetings in my diary. I agree to meet groups, and, rightly, my private office organises those meetings. The meeting date was agreed — agreed — between my private office and the business group. When I became aware that the business group had concerns, I was happy to bring the meeting forward. I have a very good working relationship with the Belfast Chamber of Commerce and other commercial groups across the North.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

First, Minister, you may want to speak to your private office, if you have no say over what goes in your diary. Secondly, I want to gently push back on what Mr Gaston said about "unionist businesses" on Sandy Row. People from all over the community have used the shops in Sandy Row in the past, and I hope that that will be the case into the future. We need to be careful about using that kind of language.

Minister, yesterday you said that you wanted people to get out of their cars and onto public transport: we can all agree to that. To do that, particularly in the south of the city, we need Glider phase 2. When will we get an update on that? You promised that it would be in the coming weeks, but we have heard nothing yet.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have often heard the leader of the Opposition talking about being a constructive Opposition. What is constructive about misrepresenting what I have just said? I said that I agreed to meet the group. The date that goes into my diary is organised between my private office and the organisation that I am meeting. I emphasise that the date was agreed. When I became aware that the business group had concerns, I rightly asked my private office to contact it again to see whether we could bring the meeting forward, and we have done that.

When will Belfast Rapid Transit phase 2 (BRT2) be in place? When I am in a position to make an announcement. I hope that that will be before the end of the calendar year. If it is not before the end of the calendar year, it will be immediately after the end of the calendar year. We will progress that, and it will provide more public transport infrastructure in the city for those who wish to travel into and across the city.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

Given the impact that the roadworks etc are having on local businesses, have you engaged with your colleagues in the Finance Department and the Economy Department to see what support can be opened up for those businesses?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I understand that the Department for Communities is bringing forward a specific programme of work for Sandy Row, and fair play to it for doing so. I am aware that the business organisations in the city regularly meet my Executive colleagues to discuss issues. Again, I emphasise that one of the reasons why Belfast is so busy with traffic is that it is doing particularly well commercially. Like all businesses, businesses in Belfast are still recovering from the impact of COVID-19, and this season is particularly important to them. I will work with businesses on that matter. I again ask Members this: if you are saying that there is chaos in Belfast, what message does that send to people who want to come into the city to enjoy its sights and sounds? My Department and I have set out alternatives for commuters coming into the city, and I encourage others to encourage commuters to plan how they travel into the city.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Member is not in his place for question 2.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

3. Mr Mathison asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of the Ards and North Down Borough Council plan to construct a footbridge over the Newtownards to Bangor dual carriageway, to facilitate access to Whitespots Country Park and the planned greenway. (AQO 1304/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The proposed pedestrian and cycle bridge forms part of the Newtownards to Bangor greenway. Planning approval for the project, including the bridge, was granted in September 2022. Ards and North Down Borough Council is leading on the delivery of the project, and I am pleased that my Department has been able to provide 50% of the capital funding required to bring it forward. We know that greenways contribute positively to local communities and can bring many health and economic benefits. I look forward to seeing that happening here.

With respect to active travel more generally, Members may be aware that I recently launched a public consultation on a draft active travel delivery plan for the North. The plan sets out how my Department will prioritise and deliver high-quality active travel infrastructure, particularly for shorter, everyday journeys. I encourage everyone to engage with the consultation to help to shape our priorities for the delivery of pedestrian and cycling infrastructure improvements in our villages, towns and cities now and into the future.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his response and for the update on the wider investment in greenways. I welcome the investment in greenways in the Ards and North Down Borough Council area.

The Minister may be aware that the residents who live directly on the site where the footbridge is due to be constructed have expressed serious concerns about that aspect of the project. They have also raised wider concerns around road safety in the laneway that they reside on, speed limits and proposed alternative crossing options for access to the greenway but have been disappointed by the lack of engagement with DFI officials on their request to meet. Given the range of concerns that they have raised and the constructive proposals that they would like to bring to your officials, would you be able to facilitate a meeting between your officials and that group of concerned residents?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member will be aware that the project received planning permission in September 2022 and has gone through the local council. All the issues related to residents' concerns will have been dealt with through the planning process. My understanding is that Ards and North Down Borough Council is moving ahead with the project. It is regrettable that there are concerns. I do not know all the circumstances — there are often understandable concerns about changes in neighbourhoods and to the environment around citizens — but the planning process has to take all that into account and come to a decision. A decision has been made by Ards and North Down Borough Council to proceed with the project.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister outline what his Department is doing to improve active travel?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As I mentioned, I recently launched the active travel consultation document. I encourage Members and others to make themselves familiar with that document and respond to it in due course. It sets out the Department's vision of what active travel will look like in the future. We have given a number of examples and locations where we would like to see active travel projects go ahead. It is important that local communities and elected representatives feed into the consultation in order to make the document as inclusive as possible.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Minister give an update on the new Newry to Carlingford greenway that is under construction? I know that a new boardwalk is being constructed adjacent to Victoria lock. That project, together with the Narrow Water bridge project, which has, of course, been paid for by the Irish Government, will be transformative for Omeath, Warrenpoint, the Mournes, Cooley and the whole region.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The supplementary question does not relate to the original question, but the Member has given us a comprehensive update on the project.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his update on active travel. Minister, what are you doing to ensure that the voice of the disabled community is at the forefront of active travel, particularly on schemes such as bus stop boarders that have an impact on the disabled community? Will those, such as the example on the Dublin Road be addressed?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member raises a relevant and important point about the inclusivity of active travel moving forward. We are working closely with the Inclusive Mobility and Transport Advisory Committee (IMTAC) on that. I believe that Dermot Devlin was present and gave an address at the recent launch of the document. We are engaging closely with the disabled community on the issue. They are important stakeholders in the discussion on active travel and how we plan for it. I encourage anyone with views on active travel to respond to the consultation.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

4. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he will commit to ensuring lighting provision is installed at Coshquin, Buncrana Road, to improve safety for road users and the wider community. (AQO 1305/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My Department's policy on the provision of street lighting in rural areas is detailed in policy and procedure guide E072. The policy, which has been in place since 1993, uses two main criteria when considering the provision of street lighting in rural areas. They relate to the density of development along a road or where lighting is likely to help at sites that have a significant history of night-time collisions. There must be at least 10 dwellings located within a continuous 200-metre road length to qualify for the installation of street lighting. In applying that rule, dwellings must front the road that is being considered for lighting. At present, the section of the Buncrana Road near Coshquin does not meet the criteria under that departmental policy.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra.

[Translation: I thank the Minister for his answer.]

As the Minister is aware, Coshquin is on or off the Buncrana Road. Will he provide us with an update on the long-awaited and long-overdue dualling of the A2 Buncrana Road?

Not only are the delays there causing traffic problems in the area but potential road safety interventions along the route have been put off and put off because the dualling of the road has been imminent for nearly 50 years.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The future delivery of that project rests with the local transport plan. We hope to be in a position to launch a consultation on the Derry City and Strabane District Council transport plan early next summer: I believe that the date is set for that. That will then fit into how we strategically move traffic in and around that area and how we deal with the traffic, given, for example, the increasing numbers of students at the Magee campus. It is an important consultation and plan, and I have no doubt that the Member will be able to respond to them in due course.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

How does the Minister's Department consider the impact of street lighting on the safety of women and girls?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Safety in general is one of the factors that is taken into account in the provision of street lighting. I am aware of the launch of the policy on ending violence against women and girls. A number of areas in my Department will have to have a rethink as to what services we provide and how we provide them. I believe that the street lighting policy will fall under that.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

5. Ms Sugden asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline any plans to coordinate the public, community and medical transport sectors to improve access and connectivity. (AQO 1306/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I met Ministers Nesbitt and Muir on 9 September to discuss the cross-departmental working group on community transport, which I established in my previous time as Minister. We collectively agreed that the group will look to consider whether transport in the community can provide a more cost-effective, value-for-money service delivery model to meet the needs of users, and to investigate the potential for community transport providers to be part of a collaborative group of transport options and pathways that can be accessed by the population. My officials are preparing a new transport strategy and a new suite of transport plans that will set the framework for transport policy and investment decisions until 2035.

The suite of transport plans will not consider changes to community transport operations, as those matters are being considered separately by the Department at a regional level and will be integrated into the plans as appropriate. While health and social care transport is the responsibility of the Department of Health, the transport plans will consider access, including by public transport, to the main health and social care facilities.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

Thank you, Minister, for your response. I am pleased to hear that you are working with other Departments to try to coordinate a transport approach. I encourage you to look in particular at the impact on rural areas. It can take up to an hour to get from Coleraine to Castlerock on a public transport bus, whereas it takes 10 minutes in a car. If community transport can take customers to the bus stop, there are ways that we can do that better. Are there any more conversations that we can have about medical transport? I know that a lot of people are paying privately for that service, and the cost is quite significant.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am happy for my Department to engage in any conversations as to how we assist the public, whether in accessing healthcare or other matters, particularly in rural communities. Many rural communities have been left behind for far too long when it comes to the provision of public transport. Even as part of the community transport review that I am carrying out, we will have to look at how we deliver that transport in a different way in order to ensure that there is equal access to services for rural communities.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

6. Ms Mulholland asked the Minister for Infrastructure what budget has been allocated by his Department to address the safety and access issues on the Glenshesk Road, Ballycastle. (AQO 1307/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In order to address the safety issues on the Glenshesk Road, I have allocated £275,000 to manage the damage associated with the slippage on 27 March 2024. That funding will facilitate surveys and enabling works and will allow for the completion of the detailed design throughout this financial year. Further funding will then be sought from next year’s structural maintenance allocation, once the detailed design is complete and a final estimate of the construction costs can be developed. I can advise that funding was also provided to manage the impact of the most recent slippage further along Glenshesk Road associated with storm Bert. I am pleased to confirm that remedial works are now complete at that location.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Thank you, Minister. I have spoken about this matter a couple of times before, and it is just because of the impact that it is having on that farming community. Does the Minister know whether further or additional measures will be put in place to prevent further damage from any other storm-related incidents along that road? We know that the situation is created by the increased rainfall and the increased volume of water going under the concourse of the road. Will additional measures be put in place before the final upgrade and works?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We will examine how we can secure the road. The Member, and other Members, may have seen the video footage taken of the most recent damage to the road. It is significant. The topography of the area makes it very difficult to remedy, and, due to the intensity of some of the rainstorms that we have had recently, material has simply washed out from underneath the road. We will examine it to see how we can secure the road in the long term.

Cheryl Brownlee (DUP, East Antrim)

7. Ms Brownlee asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline what actions his Department is taking to address flooding risks in coastal areas of East Antrim. (AQO 1308/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My Department has published flood maps for all areas across the region. Those maps identify areas that may be vulnerable to flooding. A regional flood risk management plan (FRMP) for 2021-27 has also been developed by my Department. This FRMP, which is readily available on my Department’s website, includes a range of interventions to manage flood risk from a range of sources. As part of that work, my Department is planning to commission detailed flood studies for Newtownabbey and Carrickfergus, to assess any river and coastal flood risks within those locations and to identify whether there are any economically viable schemes to reduce the impact of flooding in the area.

Cheryl Brownlee (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister and appreciate his response. Flood forecasting and an early warning alert would, obviously, allow for more efficient, targeted, emergency responses and flood warnings directly to residents. Will he provide an update as to where that sits with his Department?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It is the ambition of my Department to introduce such a measure. However, such things incur significant costs. I keep the matter under review through budgetary periods to see whether I can set aside the funding even to start such alerts and reach a point where we have an up-to-date flood identification programme.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister outline what approach his Department has taken on flood risk management specifically on Kings Row in Coalisland, which has flooded on numerous occasions, most recently during the heavy rain on 23 November, causing devastation to those homes.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In the lead up to the recent storm, storm Bert, there was, for a period, notification of that storm approaching. My officials managed to visit a number of sites about which they had concerns to check, in particular, drainage and the covers on drains, and whether drains were blocked by any materials. That was the case in the King' Row area, which my officials visited on the Friday and again on the Saturday to ensure that there was no recurrence of previous flooding. They checked as best they could because there are a number of factors involved in the flooding in Kings Row. I have also asked my officials to carry out a review of the flooding there and at Dundonald and in a few other places that were impacted on by flooding in the previous storm to see whether there are any lessons that we can learn from that.

At this point, I put on record my appreciation to all the staff who worked over the weekend and put in long hours, from all the agencies that responded to the most recent flood. A lot of the work that they carried out prior to the storm hitting saved a lot of communities from damage and flooding, though it was not a particularly heavy rain event: it was more of a wind event. However, the work that goes on behind the scenes is often unseen and unappreciated. However, I assure Members that significant work was carried out by a multitude of agencies in the run-up to the most recent storm.

Andrew McMurray (Alliance, South Down)

Very briefly, I would like to associate myself with the Minister's comments thanking the staff for their work over the past weekend. Will the Minister give us his assessment as to whether tidal defences in towns around Northern Ireland are adequate or whether further improvements will be required in the light of climate change to prevent further flooding incidents?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My Department's role in coastal defences is the protection of my Department's property. That may include roads and other areas. That is my Department's role in coastal flood defences. There has been some engagement with Minister Muir — there is no doubt that that engagement will continue — and others in the Executive about how we ensure that we have proper coastal defences in place as tides and storms increase.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

I associate myself with the Minister's thanks to the staff for their work. My colleague Joanne Bunting has been engaging with his Department to try to have a meeting about future plans to protect the houses in Dundonald. I ask the Minister to encourage officials to arrange a meeting so that we can discuss what we can do to support those people.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am happy to raise that issue with my officials.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

9. Mr McGrath asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he will commit to a comprehensive review, led by qualified experts, of alternative funding and governance arrangements for NI Water, as encouraged by the Northern Ireland Audit Office in its report ‘Funding water infrastructure in Northern Ireland’. (AQO 1310/22-27)

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

10. Mr Beattie asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of whether the existing funding model for Northern Ireland Water is sustainable and fit for purpose. (AQO 1311/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 9 and 10 together, and, if appropriate, I ask for some extra time to do so.

I noted the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the funding of water infrastructure, which was published earlier this year. My Department carried out considerable work on the funding and governance options for NI Water. In 2019-2020, the Department formed a working group with experts from NI Water, the Utility Regulator, the Department of Finance, the Strategic Investment Board and the Department for Infrastructure's finance branch to undertake research into and analysis of the situation. That work reviewed opportunities for raising additional revenue; operating more efficiently; using financial transactions capital and additional borrowing; and seeking an increase in public expenditure funding. My Department also reviewed alternative water utility company structures across Britain and Ireland in order to identify best practice. However, the privatisation and mutualisation models that are favoured in England and Wales require domestic water customers to pay charges. Further recent evidence has demonstrated that those governance models do not necessarily provide the better levels of services that people expect and can lead to higher levels of debt and increasing costs.

Regardless of whether the existing funding model is sustainable and fit for purpose, there is a need for additional funding for all public services. NI Water is not immune to that. Water and sewerage infrastructure has suffered from years of historical underinvestment as a result of the austerity policies of successive British Governments. We are dealing with the legacy of that. I continue to make the case with my Executive colleagues for additional funding for NI Water. Indeed, I was able to provide NI Water with an additional £32 million of public money in the October monitoring round, £19·5 million of which was to specifically address waste water capacity issues in order to enable housing connections.

If the suggestion is that another funding model should be introduced, the Assembly should be aware that the other models that have been proposed to date would involve domestic water charges and additional borrowing debt finance. That includes mutualisation, on which I made my position clear in the debate on the private Members' motion on the matter in April. To be clear, I will not introduce domestic water charges and I will not oversee additional borrowing that will lead to an unmanageable scale of debt that is similar to what is being experienced in some water companies in England. I am progressing a three-pronged approach in partnership with the Executive by seeking further investment from Executive colleagues; reviewing the policy and legislation on developer contributions; and seeking to secure Executive agreement for the water, flooding and sustainable drainage Bill, which is to be introduced to the Assembly.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Whilst I can hear in the answer that the Minister agrees that something needs to be done, can we get any sense of a timescale for when it will happen? The problems are mounting up, and people are suffering as a result. All that we seem to hear is, "We need extra funding, but we're not going to generate any extra money". How will we get something done?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Let us see what we have done in recent months. I provided NI Water with over £500 million of funding, which is 40% of the non-ring-fenced budget of my Department. In recent weeks, during the October monitoring round, I secured an extra £32 million for NI Water. I secured agreement from the Executive about a sustainable drainage Bill, which will be introduced in the Assembly in due course. I am working my way through what legislative changes or new legislation I will require to introduce developer charges in relation to NI Water. Those are three practical steps that I have taken in the last period.

I do not know whether Members had the opportunity last night to watch 'Panorama'. It was a very interesting programme about private water infrastructure and businesses in England.

I advise Members to watch it. It would be worth the while of those who advocate the privatisation or mutualisation of NI Water to watch it and see the consequences for the environment, shareholders — well, it is good for the shareholders, it has to be said — and bill payers.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Minister, time is up.

That ends the period for listed questions. We will now move to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T1. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for Infrastructure, after noting that the Minister, like all Members, will have welcomed yesterday's publication of the long-awaited housing supply strategy, which outlines the Executive's ambition to deliver 100,000 homes over the next 15 years, how confident he is, given the current limitations of Northern Ireland Water, that the target is achievable. (AQT 861/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am confident that, with the Executive working together and seeking solutions to problems, rather than simply highlighting them, we can be successful in fulfilling our ambition and plan to deliver that number of homes over the next number of years.

NI Water, like all public services, faces significant challenges. It is no different from any other public service. I am confident that Executive colleagues understand the need. If we are to progress our ambitious plans across a range of areas, the Department for Infrastructure needs to be properly funded. If we do not have the drains underground, we cannot put the cranes overground. I am bringing forward proposals in that regard.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his answer. In response to an earlier question, the Minister outlined his opposition to water charges and his concerns about mutualisation, which I share. In that context, however, why does the Minister appear reluctant to proceed with the independent expert-led review of Northern Ireland Water's funding and governance, as recommended by the Northern Ireland Audit Office?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The actual term used in the Audit Office report is "encourage". There is no formal recommendation in the Audit Office report; it encourages NI Water and me to proceed with a review. If a Member or anyone comes forward to me with fresh information that would lead to an expert-led panel dealing with new information on how to structure a water company, I am more than willing to do that, but, to date, no one has come forward to me with that and nor am I aware of information that would lead to the benefit of an expert-led group being brought in.

I could stand here and say, "Yes, I will bring in an expert-led group to carry out a review that will last six months and cost x amount of money", and be pretty confident that, at the end of it, it would come back to me with the same conclusions as every other review of NI Water that has been conducted. Members need to get off the fence in that sense. You either support NI Water's remaining a publicly owned company funded through direct taxation, or you support its being privatised. That is the fence on which some people are sitting. People are perfectly entitled to get off that fence on whichever side they want, but get off the fence and defend your position. I am defending my position: I will not privatise NI Water, and I will not introduce domestic water charges.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

T2. Ms Kimmins asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether his Department will consider installing a crash barrier at the Ferryhill Road in Killean, just outside Newry. (AQT 862/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My officials are more than happy to engage with the Member on that and discuss the road safety implications in the area and how best to deal with them.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Given that the road is treacherous, particularly in winter conditions, and there have been numerous incidents over the years, will the Minister consider adding the road to the gritting schedule for the time being?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

There is a long-standing policy on the roads that the Department does and can grit within the time frame and the finances that it has available. I am more than happy to share the criteria with the Member. If she believes that the road in question meets those criteria, she should raise that when she discusses the crash barrier issue with officials.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T3. Ms Dolan asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether there have been any further developments on the prospect of introducing legislation to prohibit the overtaking of a stationary school bus. (AQT 863/22-27)